456: The Monitor Situation


00:00:00   Now with that said, I would like to serve you a second crap sandwich. If you're just joining us and you're not a bootleg listener,

00:00:06   I just beat up Marco for about, I don't know, ten minutes about Under the Radar.

00:00:09   So you can go to ATP.fm/join and you can hear me beating Marco up about Under the Radar.

00:00:15   But I would like to serve you a second crap sandwich. Last week's episode,

00:00:19   while it was an unequivocal mess/disaster, it was one of my favorite episodes in a long time,

00:00:27   because of the utter disaster that is both Marco and my personal setups and how we decided to turn our setups on our heads.

00:00:34   With that said, Marco, I have completely turned my setup on its head yet again.

00:00:39   Oh my god.

00:00:40   So if this recording works, it will be a miracle.

00:00:42   As of literally two-ish hours ago, maybe a hint more than that,

00:00:47   I have now been using an LG 5K, baby. It is installed.

00:00:54   I'm using it. And in fact, my USB mixed pre-3 is connected to the monitor,

00:00:59   which is connected to my computer. And oh man, if this works, I'll be impressed.

00:01:03   You're running your sound interface through one of the ports on the back of the Ultrafine?

00:01:07   Yes, I am.

00:01:09   Oh my god.

00:01:09   I learned it by watching you.

00:01:10   Say what?

00:01:11   So Marco, I love you. I really do.

00:01:15   Oh god.

00:01:16   But this is gonna be an adventure for all of us.

00:01:19   So, uh...

00:01:20   God help you with the drift. The only thing is you better be recording on that mixed pre

00:01:25   and with its built-in SD card, because that's gonna be the only drift pre-recording that you get.

00:01:29   I am. And all kidding aside, if it is a disaster, I expect, I know you will tell me,

00:01:33   but I expect you to tell me and I'll rejigger things for next week.

00:01:35   But I wanted to give it a try and I thought, you know,

00:01:37   why would I only plug in this monitor and use that for power for my computer?

00:01:42   And Ethernet, by the way, is also on this monitor.

00:01:44   Why would I only do Ethernet and power? Why not just do the audio interface there as well?

00:01:49   Just really go for broke.

00:01:50   And so, here you go Marco. There's your second crab sandwich.

00:01:53   I hope you love it.

00:01:54   You're missing a piece of bread. That's an open-faced crab sandwich.

00:01:57   Yeah, it's more of a melt.

00:01:59   [Laughter]

00:02:01   [Music]

00:02:03   We should talk one last time, and I can't sing, otherwise I would, one last time about the ATP Store,

00:02:08   which is back, baby, but it's on its way out the door.

00:02:11   You can go to ATP.fm/store and you can get all sorts of sweet merchandise,

00:02:16   which at least if you're in the contiguous, whatever, continental US, I always get the word wrong,

00:02:21   if you're in the big part of the United States, you should, no guarantees, should get it by the holidays.

00:02:26   So, isn't Alaska a pretty big part of the United States?

00:02:29   No, that's just the Mercator projection.

00:02:31   Oh, okay.

00:02:32   It's big, but not as big as it looks.

00:02:35   Oh, I'm so sorry, Alaskans.

00:02:36   So, here we go. We got the M1 Pro shirt.

00:02:39   We've got the M1 Max shirt, available on black colored cloth, either tri-bend blend or cotton.

00:02:46   And then rainbow print on the front and a monochrome version of the respective chips on the back.

00:02:51   Then we've got the M1 Pro shirt, which we've curiously named monochrome,

00:02:55   which does make sense because the print is monochrome, and yet these are on very, many varied colors of shirts.

00:03:01   So, you can go colorful ink, black shirt, or you can go colorful shirt, white or black ink,

00:03:07   depending on which shirt color we're talking about.

00:03:09   We also have the ATP Winter hat.

00:03:10   Note, this is a turkey hat, it is not a chicken hat, but it is still very, very nice.

00:03:15   We've also brought back the ATP hoodie and additionally the ATP logo shirt, the classic, classic ATP logo shirt.

00:03:21   So, here's the thing. As we record this, it's Wednesday night.

00:03:24   We are probably going to be releasing it Thursday sometime by, I believe it's Friday evening, is that right, gentlemen?

00:03:30   Yep.

00:03:31   Friday evening, ATP time.

00:03:33   The store will close for the sweet, like, Kickstarter-style stuff that we've got going on now.

00:03:41   And then sometime over the weekend, we will go back to the print-on-demand stuff, which is far more limited.

00:03:45   So, as always, if you are driving, if you are walking, if you are biking, if you are rollerblading, if you're unicycling,

00:03:51   whatever you may be doing, if you are moving in any way, please gently and gracefully stop and move to the side of the road or sidewalk that you're on,

00:03:59   and go to ATP.fm/store and check out the wares and perhaps make a purchase.

00:04:03   Now, a couple of quick reminders.

00:04:05   Number one, if you are an ATP member, go to your member page on ATP.fm, and there will be a unique coupon code that you can use to get 15% off on these limited-time sales like the one we're talking about right now.

00:04:17   And if you wanted to be a member, become a member, again, ATP.fm/join.

00:04:21   Additionally, I believe I talked about this last week, but I'd like to reiterate that Cotton Bureau, who is our fulfillment in print people, they're excellent, excellent, amazing friends of ours,

00:04:30   they have rejiggered their shipping system such that it should, no guarantees, should be cheaper for anyone who is not American.

00:04:38   And in many cases, including for Australia, I don't know if any of the other southern hemisphere countries are the same way, but at least for Australia,

00:04:46   the VAT and some of those other taxes, they will do their best effort to calculate that at purchase time so you don't get a sweet holiday surprise thanks to your friends at ATP.

00:04:56   So, again, ATP.fm/store, you are running out of time. Every time, you guys, one of you says, "Oh, I meant to and I forgot. Is it too--"

00:05:06   Yes, it's too late. Go now, ATP.fm/store.

00:05:09   - I feel like people do that now just to troll you. - They do.

00:05:12   - Which is funny because they literally like miss out on the sale just as a method to troll you.

00:05:18   - Yep. But you know what? It's their loss, not mine. Well, it is kind of mine. But still, it's also theirs. So, ATP.fm/store.

00:05:25   - Remember, this is the holiday sale. So, if you're thinking of getting-- even if you don't want one of these things or if you're being subjected to this podcast,

00:05:32   say you're a prisoner in a car and someone is playing this podcast and you don't want to hear it, but you think you might want to get the person who forced you to listen to this podcast,

00:05:39   you might want to get them a nice gift, go to ATP.fm/store quickly, very, very quickly because this is-- you probably like a day or less depending on when you hear this,

00:05:47   very quickly, like basically now, and secretly buy them something and then maybe you can bribe them into not playing this podcast when you're stuck in the car with them.

00:05:54   - All right. And then if you become a member, remember, if you become a member, remember, you do not have to cancel despite what Jon thinks and you can enjoy the sweet, sweet benefits like the bootleg, for example.

00:06:06   So, you can hear the first of the crud sandwiches that I served Marco earlier this evening. So, check that out, ATP.fm/join, ATP.fm/store.

00:06:15   Now, let's do some follow-up. We talked last week, I believe it was, about how-- I think the genesis of this was that I do not have messages in the cloud or in iCloud turned on

00:06:26   and I think you guys might have made fun of me a little bit and I said, "Oh, I was worried about, you know, encryption and so on and so forth."

00:06:30   And we kind of waved our hands at it because we weren't entirely sure of the specifics of it and a few people wrote in and pointed out the specifics about encryption and iCloud and messages.

00:06:42   And so, reading from the iCloud security overview, it says, "For messages in iCloud, if you have an iCloud backup turned on, your backup includes a copy of the key protecting your messages.

00:06:53   This ensures that you can recover your messages if you lose access to your keychain and your trusted devices.

00:06:58   When you turn off iCloud backup, a new key is generated on your device to protect future messages that is not stored by Apple."

00:07:05   So, if I read this right, the short, short version is, it is still end-to-end encrypted, even with messages in the cloud, as long as you do not have iCloud backup turned on.

00:07:15   The moment you have iCloud backup turned on, though, all bets are off in terms of end-to-end encryption. Is that fair?

00:07:20   You should listen to ATP because we talked about this before and said the exact same thing.

00:07:23   But not everyone has heard every episode, so it's good to hear this.

00:07:26   So, I think the reason we didn't mention this specifically is because, in general, we assume that everybody has iCloud backup turned on. Do you have iCloud backup turned on, Casey?

00:07:35   I'm pretty sure I do, yeah.

00:07:36   Pretty sure or sure?

00:07:38   You know, I never used to, but then once I started doing the Apple One Plus whatever thing, I finally had the space in which to do it.

00:07:45   And so, I think that I do. I'm trying to stall for time and figure that out, but somebody else can start talking.

00:07:50   Yeah, I would recommend people use iCloud backup, and I assume most people do use iCloud backup if they can, because it's a very convenient way to get your stuff backed up.

00:07:58   And it's kind of like what Time Machine wishes it was, which is like, oh, someone hits a switch in a setting somewhere and then never has to think about it again, and that vastly increases the odds that if they, you know, drop their phone into a lake and don't have someone dive down and get it from them, that they'll have their data protected.

00:08:12   So, the reason we say, oh, messages in the cloud means Apple can get access to your messages is because we just assume people have iCloud backup turned on, and honestly, you should in general.

00:08:21   Like, you know, obviously, if you really, really are paranoid about security, I guess don't turn it on or use a different app like Signal or I don't know what you want to do if you're that paranoid about security.

00:08:30   But for the average person, don't turn off iCloud backup because you're afraid of Apple having your encryption key.

00:08:36   It's better for you to have pictures of your kids than to worry about Apple looking at your messages.

00:08:41   Well, and to get ahead of the inevitable feedback, yes, hypothetically, law enforcement could compel Apple to give them a view into your messages theoretically.

00:08:50   Yeah, no, I know. But I'm saying like, it's which which one of these things is the more likely bad thing to happen to you and you have to choose amongst them.

00:08:56   It's not great to have a lot of stresses. We wish there was a way to do these double end and encrypted.

00:09:00   But as Apple explains, they're trying to they're trying to save your bacon because the way I call a keychain works is if you do lose all your quote unquote trusted devices, it's nothing Apple can do to get it back.

00:09:08   Right. And that's a thing that can happen to people, especially say you had just one iPhone and you lost and broke that iPhone and had no backups and that had pictures of your kids on it for the past two years that you don't have anyplace else.

00:09:19   That's not good. Apple doesn't want it to happen. That is far more likely to happen than you to be the person who the government compels Apple to give your secret encryption key and look at your messages and so on and so forth.

00:09:29   Not saying this is a great choice for people to have to make, but these are the choices given to us. And of those two choices, I would recommend using iCloud backup.

00:09:37   Real time follow up. I do have iCloud backup turned on. And again, I think that's only been since I joined Apple one, but it is on.

00:09:43   That's good. All right. Go team. Apple has had some problems with Mac OS Monterey and it kind of bricking some T2 enabled Macs.

00:09:53   Can you tell me about this? And people keep using the term brick. I'm wondering if it's one of those terms is going to lose its original meaning.

00:09:58   And I'm not going to be able to yell at people for using it wrong because it will have the new meaning. But anyway, the the original meaning for brick is that your computer becomes a brick, basically as useful as a brick.

00:10:06   As in this is a piece of hardware that cannot be resurrected, that it is now like someone will have to open this up and do stuff inside it to resurrect this.

00:10:15   It is basically a brick like that's where the term comes from. Not that this isn't a bad bug.

00:10:20   It was there was something with the Monterey update that would hose the bridge OS thing that runs the on the T2 chip.

00:10:28   And that would just cause your computer not to boot correctly. But you could resurrect it. You could do what I had to do to my Mac Pro.

00:10:33   And I did the same, you know, an old I think it was like a big Sur update or something.

00:10:36   Yeah. Hose my bridge OS. There's a way you have to have another Mac, which is not a problem in this house, but for some people might be.

00:10:43   But you can you can resurrect another Mac using the Apple configurator too.

00:10:48   And it's a whole big weird procedure, but you can do it. That's why it's not bricked, because if it was bricked, you wouldn't be able to resurrect it.

00:10:54   Like it would just like you can't resurrect it. Anyway, setting aside the pedantry about the term brick.

00:10:59   There was a bug with the Monterey update. Apple says they have identified and fixed the issue with the firmware on the Apple T2 security chip, blah, blah, blah.

00:11:07   And they say the updated firmware is now included with the existing Mac OS updates.

00:11:10   So it's not like they had to release a new version, I guess. I guess if you just run the update or now you'll get the new firmware.

00:11:16   So whatever the Ars Technica article that we got this from points out that this Apple statement doesn't address similar complaints of people who had pre T2 Macs.

00:11:26   So maybe there's a still problem, still a problem with really older Macs. But like we said last week, Monterey seems pretty safe.

00:11:32   I've upgraded all my computers. It's been fine. If you had a T2 based Mac and you were worried about it, apparently Apple has fixed that bug and you're fine to upgrade.

00:11:39   If you've got a pre T2 Mac, perhaps there are still problems, but hard to say.

00:11:44   And then tell me about ways to avoid the notch, which, by the way, I really don't think is necessary in my personal estimation, but a lot of people seem to be very worked up about this.

00:11:52   So how can you avoid the notch?

00:11:54   So Roberto John Dreves says the cleanest way to get rid of the notch without having to deal with suboptimal resolution, because we were talking last week, like when you said that compatibility thing, it shrinks the whole image down to non native res is to use RDM.

00:12:07   I don't know what that stands for. I tried to look it up, but it's a project on GitHub. We'll put a link in the show notes using RDM.

00:12:12   Roberto says I can switch the new MacBook Pro resolution from the native 1512 by 982 points to 1512 by 945 points, which makes the notch permanently go away.

00:12:23   So what this thing does, this is the utility is just letting you pick resolutions that aren't offered to you in system preferences because you just get those five choices or whatever.

00:12:31   This lets you see way more choices. And one of the choices is a resolution that falls short of where the notch is.

00:12:37   So, you know, if there was a tweet, we wrote a tweet on this, you can see a picture of his Mac.

00:12:42   And lo and behold, his Mac has a taller black forehead around the top border of the screen, just like all the old MacBooks used to.

00:12:50   So if you want to just sort of throw those pixels back in Apple's face, Apple gave you all these extra pixels of the sort of ears around the notch.

00:12:57   If you just want to throw those pixels back in Apple's faces, you know what? I'm not going to use those pixels.

00:13:01   I'm going to pretend those pixels aren't there. I'm going to set my screen to a resolution that falls below where the notch is and just ignore all those pixels and they'll just be turned off all the time.

00:13:12   And hopefully I won't have any mini LED blooming reminding me that that's actually screen behind there.

00:13:17   That is a way to just forget about the notch entirely and pretend that Apple gave you a smaller screen than they actually did.

00:13:26   We are sponsored this week by Connection, an Apple U.S. corporate reseller, higher education reseller and Apple authorized service provider.

00:13:34   Connection has been a partner with Apple for 37 years, going all the way back to 1984.

00:13:40   And I actually knew them back at their original name, Mac Connection.

00:13:43   So if you've ever seen like a Mac Connection catalog back in the day, this is them.

00:13:47   They're now called Connection and they offer everything Apple Mac, iPad, iPhone, watch, AirPods and of course, many more.

00:13:55   And they keep popular models, including many upgraded and build to order Macs in stock so you can get the best products right away.

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00:14:09   Their main goal is creating the perfect Apple ecosystem for any customer specializing in optimizing the end user experience.

00:14:16   And they have direct integration with Apple for Apple Business Manager, making zero touch device deployments easy and seamless.

00:14:23   Connection was also the first Jamf Gold reseller, integrator and managed service provider.

00:14:28   Connection helps customers of all sizes, including having managed a large 40K corporate iPad rollout.

00:14:35   It is the best source for Apple.

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00:14:41   So for a business of any size, whether a small business, enterprise, higher education, Connection can help with all of your Apple needs.

00:14:49   Visit connection.com/ATP for more information.

00:14:54   And Connection is working on an exclusive offer with instant savings on a brand new 16 inch MacBook Pro.

00:15:00   Details on that are coming soon.

00:15:03   And if you still need an Intel MacBook Pro, Connection has several models available there too while supplies last.

00:15:09   So visit connection.com/ATP.

00:15:12   Watch there for that exclusive 16 inch MacBook Pro offer coming very, very soon.

00:15:16   Thank you so much to Connection for sponsoring our show.

00:15:20   (upbeat music)

00:15:24   - All right, so we have both Marco and me some more MacBook Pro observations and so on.

00:15:30   Just some quickies for me.

00:15:32   So over the last week or so since we recorded,

00:15:35   I've taken the occasion a couple of times to work with the MacBook Pro outside.

00:15:40   And it may all be in my head.

00:15:42   I don't think it is, but it may be all in my head.

00:15:44   But one of the things that I've really enjoyed about working outside with this thing

00:15:49   is that I feel like the screen is legitimately brighter.

00:15:51   And I know they talked about, oh, it's, you know, a thousand nits or whatever at peak brightness.

00:15:55   But I don't recall what my last year's MacBook Pro was.

00:15:59   I don't really know what the numbers say to compare.

00:16:01   It honestly doesn't really matter.

00:16:03   All I can tell you is that my lived experience placebo or otherwise is that it is genuinely

00:16:07   quite a bit brighter and easier to see outside, which is great.

00:16:10   Even in sunlight, which is very impressive.

00:16:13   - I don't know why you're doubting your experience.

00:16:14   Yeah, it's way brighter.

00:16:16   - Okay, well, no, because I don't know if the numbers,

00:16:19   I don't know if the numbers would say.

00:16:20   - The numbers are big.

00:16:21   I think like your old one is probably like 300 nits max

00:16:23   and this thing goes up to a thousand,

00:16:24   but it's probably displaying at 500.

00:16:26   But either way, more than 300.

00:16:28   - There you go, so yeah.

00:16:29   - I know, you can look up, I'm just making up the numbers.

00:16:30   I'm just like, yes, it does not surprise me

00:16:32   that your much brighter screen looks brighter.

00:16:34   (laughing)

00:16:35   - Turns out.

00:16:37   Additionally, so I have really enjoyed from time to time

00:16:42   going and working at like a park,

00:16:44   especially in pandemic times, once we came to realize

00:16:47   that if you're more than 10 feet away from somebody,

00:16:50   especially outside, then you should be pretty safe.

00:16:53   Knock on wood, all things being considered.

00:16:55   And so I've tried from time to time to go

00:16:59   and find places to work.

00:17:01   And I used to go to like a local grocery store,

00:17:04   which is a very fancy grocery store

00:17:05   and it has like a little cafe area.

00:17:07   I'm not a coffee drinker,

00:17:08   so I didn't really ever go to Starbucks,

00:17:09   but if I was, I would have gone to Starbucks.

00:17:12   But since the pandemic has happened and is happening,

00:17:14   I'm still mostly allergic to the indoors.

00:17:16   So I've been trying to find outdoors places to go and work.

00:17:20   And there's a lot of really great parks in the county

00:17:21   in which I live and other things like that.

00:17:24   And so over the last year and a half or two years,

00:17:26   I've been amassing a private Apple Maps collection.

00:17:29   I think they call it, that I call Places to Work.

00:17:31   And I'll take a note of, oh, right here in this park,

00:17:34   there's some picnic tables that are shaded

00:17:36   or over there there's a shady area

00:17:39   that has picnic tables underneath it.

00:17:41   Oh, and these ones have power and so on and so forth.

00:17:44   And one of the things that was a real struggle for me

00:17:46   is if I wanted to sit down for like several hours

00:17:48   and do work, particularly outside,

00:17:50   irrespective of like my internet situation,

00:17:52   which was often, but not always tethering,

00:17:55   on my old laptop, like I really needed to worry about power

00:17:57   after just an hour or two.

00:17:59   And I have a USB-C battery pack that I can use.

00:18:03   It's big enough physically in terms of what,

00:18:06   milliamp hours or whatever,

00:18:07   that I can power a computer with it for some amount of time.

00:18:10   But even still, I would only have, I don't know,

00:18:12   three or four hours or something like that

00:18:13   on my last year's laptop.

00:18:15   And let me tell you, I spent all morning outside

00:18:18   at a botanical garden here in Richmond, don't be creepy.

00:18:20   And I was on like 75% battery or something like that

00:18:25   when I left, I should actually take a note

00:18:27   of how long I was there and how much battery I use.

00:18:29   But the point I'm driving at is,

00:18:31   I really don't need to worry about power

00:18:33   as long as I'm not gonna be out literally all day.

00:18:35   And I know that this is old news

00:18:37   for those of you who have had M1 Macs before,

00:18:39   but even with the M1 Macs and 64 gigs of RAM and 24 GPUs,

00:18:42   it is real nice not having to worry about power

00:18:45   for like three and four hours at a time,

00:18:48   which is super cool and I've really appreciated already.

00:18:52   Now, in the spirit of me rejiggering my desk setup,

00:18:55   I realized, well, I'm going to be unloading this iMac Pro,

00:18:59   which by the way, if you're interested, please reach out,

00:19:01   but I'm going to be unloading this iMac Pro

00:19:02   in the next couple of weeks.

00:19:03   And I will presumably be sending the keyboard

00:19:06   and track pad that came with it to the next owner.

00:19:10   So now I need a new setup unless I'm going to live

00:19:12   with the keyboard and track pad

00:19:15   that are physically on the laptop,

00:19:16   which when I'm at home, I don't really wanna do

00:19:18   'cause it's not terribly ergonomic.

00:19:20   So I went to the Apple store and I bought myself

00:19:22   a fancy new 100 and whatever key extended keyboard

00:19:26   with a numpad.

00:19:28   - The one with touch ID?

00:19:29   - Yes, the new one with touch ID and then a new track pad,

00:19:34   which I think is in most ways the same as what I had

00:19:36   except white instead of much more attractive

00:19:38   in my opinion, dark gray.

00:19:40   But I bought one of, you know, a track pad

00:19:42   and a new keyboard.

00:19:43   Do you have any idea how frigging expensive these things are?

00:19:46   - I believe the keyboard, I think it's 150.

00:19:50   - The small one is, I believe,

00:19:51   I believe the big one was 180.

00:19:52   - Oh God, okay.

00:19:54   (laughing)

00:19:55   Yeah, the small, yeah, they were right.

00:19:56   The small one touch ID is 150.

00:19:58   I've been thinking about ordering one,

00:20:00   but yeah, the track pad I think is also about 160 or 180.

00:20:05   - I thought it was 130.

00:20:06   I don't have these numbers in front of me.

00:20:07   - It's expensive, yeah.

00:20:08   - Yeah, it doesn't matter if I don't have it exactly right.

00:20:11   But all told, between the two of them,

00:20:14   and I also got a second MagSafe,

00:20:15   you know, an additional MagSafe cable,

00:20:17   but I think it was like 310, 320 bucks

00:20:20   for just the keyboard and the mouse or something like that.

00:20:23   Like it was preposterously expensive,

00:20:26   just hilariously expensive.

00:20:28   And to get ahead of people asking,

00:20:29   like I actually didn't necessarily want the keyboard

00:20:34   with the numeric keypad.

00:20:36   It is what I chose,

00:20:37   but it's not what I necessarily wanted.

00:20:38   But did you remember the Achilles heel

00:20:41   of the smaller sized keyboard

00:20:43   that does not have the numeric keypad on it?

00:20:46   - It's got the messed up arrow keys.

00:20:47   - It's got the piss poor arrow keys.

00:20:49   And since I'm used to the extended version,

00:20:51   'cause that's what the iMac Pro came with,

00:20:53   I thought to myself, you know what,

00:20:54   I'd rather have the proper arrow keys

00:20:56   and the numeric keypad, which I do use from time to time,

00:21:00   but not enough to really justify it

00:21:01   in the grand scheme of things.

00:21:03   So I ended up splurging for the $180,

00:21:06   I can confirm that now,

00:21:06   $180 Magic Keyboard with Touch ID and Numeric Keypad

00:21:09   for Mac models with Apple Silicon, hyphen US English.

00:21:12   That's a great, really great--

00:21:13   - That's a better keyboard anyway.

00:21:14   And by the way, that little keyboard

00:21:15   that we're talking about,

00:21:16   like what we were saying by the messed up arrow keys

00:21:18   is it has the style that used to be on all the Mac laptops,

00:21:21   where the up and down arrows are half size

00:21:24   and wedged into like a single key caps space.

00:21:27   And then the left and right arrows are full size keys.

00:21:31   So you have three keys in a row, left,

00:21:34   then the up, down, and then right,

00:21:36   that are all kind of the same height.

00:21:37   And what we wanted on the laptops,

00:21:39   and what we got on the current laptops

00:21:40   is what we call the inverted T,

00:21:41   where the left and right arrows are half height.

00:21:44   And you would think that's worse.

00:21:45   You're making the left and right arrows smaller.

00:21:46   They must be harder to hit.

00:21:48   But the key about them being half height

00:21:49   is now you can feel for that T,

00:21:51   because you can feel the half height key,

00:21:53   and then the full height up and down pair,

00:21:55   and then the other half height key that goes to the right.

00:21:58   And it's easy, you know, it's,

00:22:01   and obviously the full size keyboard

00:22:02   has an inverted T as well.

00:22:03   You can actually feel for the keys without looking at them.

00:22:05   And if you're used to that,

00:22:06   going to the full size left and right keys

00:22:08   was a downgrade for a lot of people.

00:22:09   And apparently Apple agreed,

00:22:10   'cause they changed it on their laptops.

00:22:12   But this one keyboard, this one dinky tiny keyboard

00:22:15   that comes with the iMacs,

00:22:17   and that you get if you don't buy this extended one,

00:22:20   it has the full height left and right arrow keys.

00:22:23   And the reason it has the full height

00:22:24   left and right arrow keys,

00:22:25   if you look at the picture of it,

00:22:26   is that if you tried to make the right arrow key

00:22:29   in particular half height,

00:22:31   it wouldn't quite work

00:22:33   because the corner of the keyboard is rounded.

00:22:36   And so that key would not just be half height,

00:22:39   but it would also have its corner chopped off.

00:22:41   So this is a, one of the few remaining examples

00:22:43   of fairly egregious form over function,

00:22:46   where someone decided that it was really, really important

00:22:49   for this keyboard to have rounded edges

00:22:51   at the cost of the arrow keys being easier

00:22:54   and more comfortable to use for most people.

00:22:56   That's not a good trade.

00:22:58   I know it looks cute when the keyboard has rounded corners,

00:23:01   the keyboard you bought Casey has rounded corners.

00:23:03   And so the enter key is rounded,

00:23:04   the control key is rounded,

00:23:05   the escape key is rounded,

00:23:07   and the F19 key are rounded.

00:23:09   And it's not that bad,

00:23:10   but they're still pretty big keys.

00:23:11   Like enter and control and escape

00:23:13   are much bigger than a normal key.

00:23:14   And then F19, who hits that, it's not a big deal.

00:23:17   But for the little keyboard,

00:23:19   they sacrifice the usability of the arrow keys

00:23:22   just so it could have extremely rounded corners.

00:23:24   I think that is a bad trade.

00:23:25   I hope Apple fixes that.

00:23:27   - That seemed like it was like directly

00:23:28   from like the ghost of Johnny I.

00:23:30   Like somehow Johnny came back into the building

00:23:33   and I guess his key card still works probably.

00:23:36   And he came back in and somehow he convinced

00:23:38   like one person like, hey, just, you know,

00:23:40   just do this for me.

00:23:41   I can't live with these less rounded keyboard corners

00:23:44   that would otherwise make usable arrow keys.

00:23:46   I can't tolerate that.

00:23:48   You gotta round it a little bit more

00:23:49   and make it a little bit more like this wonderful generation

00:23:52   of keyboards you made from 2016 to 2019.

00:23:55   Yeah, please make it more like that.

00:23:56   - And that's why, like, you know,

00:23:58   it's not like the keyboard that I'm using right now,

00:24:00   the one that came with my Mac Pro,

00:24:01   it's not like it doesn't have rounded corners.

00:24:03   It does, the radius is just smaller of the rounding.

00:24:06   Like that's it.

00:24:07   Like it's not like this has sharp corners

00:24:08   that needed to be fixed.

00:24:09   And it's also not like the keyboard that I'm using right now

00:24:12   is somehow a giant battleship,

00:24:13   like the Apple extended keyboard two or something.

00:24:16   It's so tightly wrapped around the keys.

00:24:18   It's like it disappears.

00:24:20   And yet this tightness and this amount of rounding

00:24:23   was deemed insufficient for the new computers

00:24:25   because the radius of the rounded corner

00:24:26   should be similar on the screen and the key.

00:24:29   But it's like, no, fine, you can do that, fine.

00:24:31   But if you wanna do that,

00:24:32   either make the border on your keyboards bigger

00:24:35   or I don't know, like just don't mangle the arrow keys for it

00:24:38   it's a bad choice.

00:24:39   Anyway, I'm glad the extended one doesn't suffer from this.

00:24:42   I know Casey doesn't want the extended one

00:24:44   'cause most people don't want a numpad,

00:24:45   but page up, page down, home end

00:24:47   and real full size inverted T arrow keys.

00:24:49   It's a great way to live.

00:24:50   - And delete, forward delete or whatever it is.

00:24:52   - Yeah, and forward delete without hitting FN.

00:24:54   - Yep, yeah, all these are very true.

00:24:56   So I shouldn't complain.

00:24:57   The thing I'm complaining about more than anything else

00:24:59   is that it was 100, I've now looked it up,

00:25:01   $180 for the keyboard and 130 for the Magic Trackpad.

00:25:05   So 310 friggin' dollars for peripherals for this stupid

00:25:09   computer that I actually absolutely am in love with.

00:25:12   But nevertheless.

00:25:12   - Yeah, I got, man, the more I'm using this computer,

00:25:16   like, oh man, the new MacBook Pros are good.

00:25:19   They're so good.

00:25:20   - And you know, it was funny too,

00:25:22   because after I was doing work at the Botanical Gardens,

00:25:25   you know, Declan was in school,

00:25:26   but Aaron and Michaela came and met me

00:25:27   and we walked around, had lunch and stuff.

00:25:29   And I was saying to Aaron, you know,

00:25:31   I liked using my old laptop

00:25:33   and it was perfectly sufficient,

00:25:34   but it was always a little bit of a pain

00:25:37   because it was demonstrably slower than the iMac Pro.

00:25:41   And so if I'm choosing to say,

00:25:43   like work on the screen in porch,

00:25:44   unless I pull an MKBHD and like haul the iMac Pro down there,

00:25:48   I'm still using a slower computer and it's frustrating.

00:25:53   And it's just annoying.

00:25:54   Whereas here it was, I was in the middle of a garden

00:25:58   on a computer that was tethered to nothing with a cable

00:26:01   and tethered to my phone for internet.

00:26:03   And it's so incredibly fast.

00:26:06   Like I cannot oversell how fast it is to build and run

00:26:10   this new thing I'm working on.

00:26:11   It is so fast and so nice.

00:26:13   And it's so amazing to not have to feel like

00:26:17   I am crippling myself when I step away from my desk.

00:26:21   Of course, now that I say that,

00:26:22   that's a perfect segue to the LG 5K,

00:26:25   which I have acquired secondhand.

00:26:27   Now this person did not ask for a plug,

00:26:29   but my friend, Chris Gray, who is part of with Glenn Welch,

00:26:34   the Starport 75 podcast,

00:26:36   which I've guested on a handful of times,

00:26:37   and I actually plan to do so again soon.

00:26:39   It's a Disney themed podcast and it's really good.

00:26:41   And they have a great chemistry, the two of them.

00:26:44   Well, Chris didn't want his LG 5K anymore.

00:26:46   And so he sold it to me at a tremendously great deal.

00:26:49   And so I felt a lot better spending the money I spent on it

00:26:53   rather than spending like $1,300 or whatever it is

00:26:56   to get a brand new one.

00:26:58   That being said, I haven't exactly canceled the order I have

00:27:01   for the brand new one, and I know I should,

00:27:03   but I can't quite bring myself to do it

00:27:05   'cause I think it would be so awesome to have two of these.

00:27:06   But nevertheless, the LG 5K in terms of the screen

00:27:10   based on three hours of use, the screen is great.

00:27:12   It's not as great as the one in the MacBook Pro,

00:27:14   but it's great, it's perfectly fine.

00:27:16   Perfectly fine, perfectly serviceable.

00:27:18   And it has four USB-C ports in the back.

00:27:20   - I love that you started out with great

00:27:22   and then you went to perfectly fine

00:27:24   and then you went to perfectly serviceable.

00:27:25   - You're not wrong.

00:27:26   No, it is great.

00:27:27   In my opinion, it is really great.

00:27:29   However--

00:27:30   - Would you agree that it's fine?

00:27:32   - It is ultra fine, baby.

00:27:33   (laughing)

00:27:34   But the stand-- - Ultra fine.

00:27:36   - The stand is just as crappy as everyone says it is.

00:27:40   It is so bad.

00:27:41   Like I try to bring it up to full height,

00:27:42   and I don't know if maybe it's because I have a couple

00:27:44   of things plugged into it like ethernet and the USB Pre,

00:27:47   or excuse me, the USB Mix 3.

00:27:50   But whatever it is, when I raise the stand up to full height,

00:27:53   you know what it does?

00:27:54   Er, and it shrinks down like two inches.

00:27:57   Just settles back in like an old desk chair

00:28:00   that's been at the office for too long,

00:28:02   which is very funny to me.

00:28:03   And I might just get a visa, vase,

00:28:05   or whatever it's called mount for it.

00:28:07   But let me tell you, based again

00:28:08   on just a few minutes of use,

00:28:10   it is so nice pairing the MacBook Pro,

00:28:15   which is so fast, with this beautiful screen

00:28:18   that is basically the same as what I had in my iMac Pro.

00:28:21   Like maybe it isn't on paper,

00:28:22   but it's effectively the same to my eyes.

00:28:24   - It's nearby.

00:28:25   - Yeah, I am so happy having this thing here.

00:28:28   This is so great and I'm so excited.

00:28:30   The only problem I have with my computing life right now

00:28:32   is for the longest time, I feel like the,

00:28:37   that I was a Bluetooth unicorn.

00:28:40   And so many people whine and moan

00:28:41   about how like Bluetooth is garbage for peripherals

00:28:43   and it's always laggy and this and that and the other thing.

00:28:45   And for years, I've never had this problem.

00:28:48   And I feel like it may be all in my head,

00:28:50   but I feel like I'm getting a little bit of like stuttering

00:28:52   and lag off of the new Magic Trackpad.

00:28:55   And it's brand new with a brand new computer.

00:28:56   So it's gotta be like some interference or something,

00:28:58   I don't know.

00:28:59   But it's really bothering me that it's happening at all.

00:29:02   So I'm hopeful I'll be able to report in a week

00:29:04   that it just has, it stopped.

00:29:05   Or maybe once I unplug the iMac, that'll fix it, who knows?

00:29:08   But this happened before the LG for the record.

00:29:10   The LG wasn't here yet when I noticed this.

00:29:13   But all told, I am so freaking happy

00:29:17   with my computing life right now.

00:29:18   I cannot overstate how happy I am.

00:29:20   And the Touch ID and the keyboard works so well.

00:29:24   The external keyboard, like I'm so happy, you guys.

00:29:26   I'm so, so happy.

00:29:29   My life is so good right now.

00:29:31   Marco, let's keep it up.

00:29:33   Tell me how your life is.

00:29:34   - It's similarly really good. (laughs)

00:29:37   - Good, good.

00:29:38   - Oh my God, these computers are so good.

00:29:41   So my current setup is, it's basically what it was last week.

00:29:44   I don't think I changed anything.

00:29:45   I'm waiting on a couple of Thunderbolt hubs

00:29:47   to come in to make this a little bit nicer.

00:29:48   But the gist of it is that right now,

00:29:50   I have my 16-inch desktop laptop off to the side

00:29:55   in a vertical clamshell stand,

00:29:59   like some kind of wood thing that stands it up vertically.

00:30:02   And I have it so the vent is on top,

00:30:04   like the hinge, the screen hinge is on top.

00:30:07   The downside of this, so there's a little quirk

00:30:10   about the design of these.

00:30:11   If you're gonna use it in a vertical stand,

00:30:14   the Apple logo and the MacBook Pro etching on the bottom

00:30:19   are in opposite orientation.

00:30:20   - Oh no.

00:30:21   - No matter how you stand it up,

00:30:22   one of those is gonna be upside down.

00:30:24   But the way I stand it up with the hinge on top,

00:30:26   the Apple logo is upside down, but that doesn't matter.

00:30:28   That's like facing into the speaker next to it

00:30:30   so I don't see it.

00:30:31   So I have access to the ports on the side, on one side.

00:30:36   And the other side I have plugged into

00:30:37   the main docking stuff so I have,

00:30:39   I can reach over and access my SD card slot

00:30:41   because that side of it's facing me

00:30:44   and it's off to the right side of my center monitor thing.

00:30:47   And anyway, it looks cool and it works really well.

00:30:50   And I figure having the hinge/vent on top

00:30:53   should help convection cooling and help the fans

00:30:55   not need to work as hard.

00:30:57   And occasionally I will be,

00:30:59   if I'm doing something intensive on the processor,

00:31:02   I'll reach my hand over to see if I can feel

00:31:04   hot air coming out the top and it's never gotten

00:31:08   beyond slightly warm.

00:31:10   So this thing really does have

00:31:12   a pretty incredible cooling system.

00:31:14   I've never heard the fans as of yet.

00:31:17   - Yeah, same.

00:31:18   - So far I'm very happy with that.

00:31:20   And the 14 inch has been my around the house.

00:31:23   Work out FaceTime/upstairs/portable needs

00:31:27   and it's been fantastic.

00:31:29   I did actually, I'm experimenting with a change.

00:31:34   My iPad is, it's still the, it's the first 11 inch model

00:31:40   which I believe was the 2018 model.

00:31:42   I'm barely using it anymore because frankly,

00:31:46   Mac laptops got so much better than they were.

00:31:49   And every time I use my iPad,

00:31:52   I wish it was a Mac laptop instead.

00:31:55   And so I'm temporarily trying to just use my M1 Air

00:32:00   right in place of the iPad.

00:32:03   So in the kitchen, on the counter,

00:32:06   I work with one of those little plastic keyboard overlays,

00:32:09   try to keep some dust and crumbs out of it

00:32:10   'cause sometimes I'll operate it with slightly damp hands

00:32:13   or maybe I'll have something on my hands

00:32:15   from cooking or something.

00:32:16   But I'm trying just having that be the MacBook Air.

00:32:20   And so far I'm kinda loving it.

00:32:23   So we'll see, 'cause I really don't want to replace

00:32:28   that iPad with another iPad just 'cause I'm not

00:32:30   iPad-ing enough.

00:32:31   Whatever value iPad power users get out of it

00:32:34   as their glorious everything machine,

00:32:37   I've never really gotten there with it

00:32:39   and I think a MacBook Air in that context for me,

00:32:42   especially since I already have it,

00:32:44   it's not like I had to go buy something separate.

00:32:45   I already have these things and it's only a question

00:32:47   of which one do I give away/sell/trade in at some point

00:32:52   or save for my kid to have to use when he needs a laptop,

00:32:56   something like that.

00:32:56   But now that I had both in my house,

00:33:00   it's really, really nice to just have a small Mac

00:33:05   on the kitchen counter instead of an iPad

00:33:07   for my personal needs and preferences.

00:33:09   'Cause so often when I'm doing anything on an iPad,

00:33:13   I run into something where I'm like,

00:33:14   oh, I gotta save this for the next time I'm on a Mac.

00:33:17   Or I could do this so much easier or better

00:33:19   if I was on a Mac.

00:33:21   And so now I'm just on a Mac.

00:33:22   It's a lot nicer.

00:33:24   So yeah, and it does feel like a little bit wasteful

00:33:27   of such a powerful computer, but at the same time,

00:33:30   if I bought a new iPad today,

00:33:33   it would have similar processing power

00:33:36   and I would only be using it mostly to type notes

00:33:38   and add stuff to Amazon in my shopping cart

00:33:40   and the kitchen when I run into something.

00:33:42   So it would be a waste of computing potential either way.

00:33:46   Might as well have the computer that I can do

00:33:49   lots more stuff on that I need to do

00:33:51   as opposed to the one that I so often will hit a wall

00:33:54   and be like, well, I guess I gotta save this for later.

00:33:56   - Well, I think the Mac is probably slightly more vulnerable

00:33:59   to kitchen hazards than the iPad.

00:34:02   - Yes, and that's why I ordered that keyboard cover.

00:34:05   And I know it's still gonna be a little more vulnerable,

00:34:07   but it's not a super big risk of getting wet, Casey.

00:34:10   - Hi. (laughing)

00:34:13   - The bigger risk is just that my hands

00:34:14   might be a little bit dirty while operating it

00:34:17   just because of where it is.

00:34:18   It's pretty far from any water sources.

00:34:19   But I also figure because it's the fanless MacBook Air,

00:34:24   that whatever ventilation it would get

00:34:26   from sucking air in through the keyboard isn't a thing.

00:34:29   So covering that keyboard with a plastic cover thing

00:34:32   shouldn't be a problem.

00:34:34   - You talking about this reminded me of a couple things.

00:34:37   First of all, at the moment,

00:34:38   I'm currently running the MacBook Pro adjacent to the LG 5K.

00:34:43   So I'm using two screens,

00:34:44   which is the first time I've done this

00:34:46   for more than a few minutes in a long time.

00:34:48   And I'm not sure if I'm gonna stick with it.

00:34:49   However, I'm using,

00:34:51   I think this is originally, it was a hand-me-down.

00:34:53   I think it's the 12 South Lake.

00:34:55   I forget what they called it.

00:34:56   I'll try to remember to get up for the show notes,

00:34:58   but it's a thing that lifts up an iMac off the desk

00:35:02   because iMacs are notorious for being way too low.

00:35:04   And I've put my MacBook Pro on that.

00:35:07   So now my computer's elevated off the desk.

00:35:10   I hope you guys are very happy.

00:35:11   - Oh, that's good.

00:35:12   So now you can spill up to like three inches of water

00:35:15   and it's not a problem.

00:35:16   - That's true.

00:35:17   And the only thing I have to worry about

00:35:18   is my $310 of peripherals I just bought.

00:35:21   - Right. (laughs)

00:35:23   - And then actually speaking of peripherals,

00:35:25   I forgot to mention earlier,

00:35:27   I think we might've spoken about this before.

00:35:29   So forgive me if I'm repeating us/myself.

00:35:33   The peripherals come with braided USB-C to lightning cables,

00:35:36   which are delightful.

00:35:38   These are so nice.

00:35:40   - Yeah, they're really nice.

00:35:41   - I don't know if we talked about that before,

00:35:41   but they're so great.

00:35:42   - We did, last week.

00:35:44   - Okay, I just wanna make sure.

00:35:45   (laughing)

00:35:46   - Jon's in charge of telling us what's on the show.

00:35:48   - It's not that long ago.

00:35:50   - I can't remember what I had for dinner.

00:35:52   - And you know what I said last week?

00:35:53   I said, "Oh, we talked about this before."

00:35:55   Remember when I was getting all braided cables

00:35:56   for my Mac Pro and you said, "Oh yeah."

00:35:57   (laughing)

00:36:00   - Oh gosh, I'm so sorry, everyone.

00:36:02   - So quick little update about benchmarks

00:36:06   on the new MacBook Pros.

00:36:08   When I last gave my benchmarks,

00:36:10   I only had the 14-inch M1 Pro version

00:36:14   with the 16 gigs of RAM.

00:36:16   I now have the M1 Max, and I have the 16-inch,

00:36:20   which gives me the ability to run high power mode,

00:36:23   and I wanted to test low power mode as well.

00:36:25   So here's how that all went, here's how it all turned out.

00:36:27   So if you recall, compared to the M1 Mac Mini,

00:36:30   this is using an overcast build.

00:36:32   So overcast is a moderately sized app.

00:36:34   It's not huge, it's not tiny.

00:36:36   It's a moderately sized app.

00:36:37   It's a lot of swift and a lot of Objective-C,

00:36:40   and a clean build on an M1 takes about 30 seconds.

00:36:44   On an M1 Pro, it took about 19 seconds,

00:36:48   so significantly faster.

00:36:50   And then on the M1 Max, it's also 19 seconds.

00:36:55   In fact, every test I ran, all the Xcode tests,

00:36:58   clean build, incremental, large and small builds,

00:37:01   all of them took exactly the same amount of time,

00:37:04   you know, give or take.

00:37:05   This is like me, you know, mostly timing things

00:37:07   like stopwatch based, so maybe like a half second

00:37:10   in precision, but they all had the same results.

00:37:13   So I could not tell the difference,

00:37:15   and I should note also, this is both the M1 Pro and M1 Max

00:37:19   had the same 10 CPU cores.

00:37:21   I had not tested the low-end eight-core model.

00:37:24   So M1 Pro versus M1 Max, as far as I can tell,

00:37:27   for this kind of moderate developer workload,

00:37:30   no difference between those two chips,

00:37:32   'cause you know, I'm not really using the GPUs for anything,

00:37:35   and it seems like the CPU needs are the same.

00:37:38   Also, no difference between 14-inch and 16-inch

00:37:41   for this purpose.

00:37:41   You know, 16-inch does provide a much larger cooling system,

00:37:45   but that seems to mostly only be a benefit

00:37:48   to GPU-heavy workloads that like video people are doing,

00:37:52   and I'm not doing any of those things.

00:37:53   So for developers, I would say any M1 Pro or M1 Max

00:37:58   is gonna be probably about the same for you,

00:38:01   with the exception of that low-end eight-core model.

00:38:03   Again, that's probably gonna be a little bit slower,

00:38:05   but it would still be really fast.

00:38:07   And then finally, I decided to test high-power mode

00:38:10   and low-power mode.

00:38:12   High-power mode could not tell a difference at all

00:38:15   with anything, and this makes sense

00:38:17   based on what we've been told about high-power mode.

00:38:18   It seems like it doesn't increase the clock speed

00:38:22   of the chip or anything like that.

00:38:24   All high-power mode seems to do is run the fans

00:38:27   at higher speed and allow them to run even higher

00:38:30   if necessary, so if you're doing some kind of very heavy

00:38:34   CPU and GPU-sustained workloads,

00:38:38   again, like video people would do,

00:38:40   that's when you're looking at high-power mode

00:38:42   on the 16-inch being a potential gain for you,

00:38:45   but for developers, it seems to make no difference

00:38:47   whatsoever, at least nothing that I could notice.

00:38:49   Finally, low-power mode.

00:38:51   I haven't tested any kind of battery impact

00:38:54   on low-power mode yet, 'cause that battery test

00:38:56   takes a very long time, and I haven't had time.

00:38:58   But performance-wise, low-power mode seems to be

00:39:02   about 15% slower than regular mode.

00:39:06   So it is noticeable, but it's not a big difference.

00:39:10   Like my 19-second build took 21 seconds.

00:39:13   It's not, and this was pretty consistent.

00:39:16   I could measure it over and over again,

00:39:17   and it stayed exactly in the same range.

00:39:19   So low-power mode, all the tests I did,

00:39:22   about 15% slower, which is interesting.

00:39:25   I'd love to learn more about it,

00:39:27   but that's a small enough difference

00:39:29   that I think if it has a big battery impact,

00:39:33   it would be totally fine to, for instance,

00:39:36   have it automatically switch to low-power mode

00:39:38   any time it's on battery, which is one of the settings

00:39:40   you get in the power system pref pane.

00:39:42   You can have it always run low-power mode

00:39:44   when it's on battery, or you can manually switch it

00:39:46   whenever you feel necessary, like maybe if you're

00:39:47   on a flight or something like that.

00:39:49   But right now, I set my 14-inch to use low-power mode

00:39:52   on battery, and I haven't noticed any difference whatsoever.

00:39:54   So maybe I'll just get even ridiculously more

00:39:57   better battery life.

00:39:59   So yeah, overall, very impressed,

00:40:01   but it also doesn't seem to matter really

00:40:03   which of these chips you get for developer workload,

00:40:06   which is great news.

00:40:07   That means you can be more flexible in your buying decisions

00:40:10   and kinda get whatever you want.

00:40:12   I also did not notice a difference

00:40:13   in this particular benchmark between the 16 gig

00:40:17   and 64 gig of RAM option, but that being said,

00:40:21   one more week of usage, I totally noticed a difference

00:40:24   in my actual day-to-day usage having all this RAM,

00:40:27   because I'm not just running Xcode builds

00:40:29   over and over again, I'm bouncing between lots

00:40:31   of different apps.

00:40:32   I have Logic, I have Xcode, I have Adobe's garbage apps,

00:40:35   which by the way, I've, (laughing)

00:40:38   I briefly flirted with the idea of updating quitter

00:40:41   to terminate all of Adobe's background crap processes.

00:40:44   Instead, I just wrote a shell script

00:40:47   and made Longd run it every 15 minutes.

00:40:49   - Nice. (laughing)

00:40:50   - So it's fine, and it works great.

00:40:52   So I've totally solved my Adobe bloat problem

00:40:56   with a shell script.

00:40:57   Maybe I'll post it somewhere, I don't know.

00:40:58   - Oh, that's very nice.

00:40:59   As you're talking about memory stuff,

00:41:00   I'm looking at, so in iStat menus,

00:41:03   you can get a historical graph of your memory pressure.

00:41:05   - Yeah, I didn't know about that until a few days ago.

00:41:08   It's great, so okay, anybody using iStat menus,

00:41:11   go turn on a memory pressure widget,

00:41:14   'cause it only records this graph if you have a widget on,

00:41:17   but go turn on a memory widget of some kind in iStat menu,

00:41:21   so the memory switch is enabled,

00:41:24   and then you can see a history of your memory pressure

00:41:27   over up to 30 days since you've had it enabled.

00:41:30   So you can actually see over time

00:41:33   how much memory you might need.

00:41:35   - Right, so I'm looking at my memory pressure

00:41:37   since I got the computer,

00:41:39   and I've been using it pretty much full-time

00:41:42   since, I don't know, day two or three.

00:41:45   My iMac literally got moved off my desk

00:41:47   like two or three days ago, poor thing.

00:41:49   I love that computer so much, it pains me so much

00:41:51   that it's not my primary machine, but it's not as fast.

00:41:56   Well, anyways, my memory pressure at its worst,

00:41:58   would you gentlemen like to guess

00:42:00   the percentage of memory pressure I had at its worst?

00:42:03   - 10%. - It's stunning.

00:42:05   Okay, Marcos at 10%, John.

00:42:07   - People were showing these graphs before,

00:42:08   and memory pressure is already a fuzzy thing.

00:42:10   What the heck is the percentage?

00:42:12   What does 100% memory pressure mean?

00:42:14   This is all meaningless numbers.

00:42:15   I have no idea what the number is.

00:42:17   - Okay, my worst memory pressure was 5%.

00:42:21   - 5% of what?

00:42:22   - I don't know, but it's not a lot.

00:42:23   I can tell you that. - Yes, it's low,

00:42:24   but I don't, mine's nine.

00:42:27   - I don't know, it just made me laugh.

00:42:29   And so I probably did not need,

00:42:30   almost certainly did not need 64 gigs of RAM,

00:42:32   but no regrets.

00:42:34   I am so happy that this machine,

00:42:36   as obscenely expensive as it and its stupid peripherals were,

00:42:40   I am so happy with this computer, I cannot even tell you.

00:42:43   I mean, I felt, I do think I felt equally happy

00:42:46   with the iMac Pro when it was new,

00:42:48   and actually to some degree, still to this day,

00:42:50   it is such a nice computer,

00:42:51   and I'm only slightly saying that

00:42:52   'cause I wanna sell it soon,

00:42:53   but it is such a nice computer,

00:42:55   but being able to pick it up and move it

00:42:57   without a Pelican case MKBHD style

00:42:59   is also so freaking great.

00:43:01   - Yeah, I mean, the iMac Pro is and was amazing

00:43:06   in so many ways.

00:43:08   We just have better computers now,

00:43:10   'cause the iMac Pro is also pretty old.

00:43:12   I mean, that was also, what was that, 2018 model?

00:43:15   - 2017, I think, right?

00:43:16   - 2017, yeah, yeah.

00:43:18   It's been a while now, and it was never updated,

00:43:20   so that's not recent anymore.

00:43:23   When it came out and for the many years following,

00:43:25   it was fantastic, but obviously, this much time has passed.

00:43:30   Better things are gonna come out.

00:43:31   - One final note on the 16-inch versus 14-inch.

00:43:35   So there's been lots of hardware teardowns

00:43:37   of these laptops now,

00:43:38   and people have done more extensive tests,

00:43:40   and it's about what you would expect.

00:43:42   So the 16-inch, as Marco noted,

00:43:44   has a better cooling system.

00:43:45   It has bigger heat pipes, it has bigger fans,

00:43:48   and there's just plain more room in there.

00:43:50   The air slots are bigger for entry and exit,

00:43:53   and you can equip that computer

00:43:55   with exactly the same system on a chip

00:43:57   as you can in a 14-inch.

00:43:58   So to no one's surprise,

00:44:01   the 14-inch has more trouble moving heat out of it,

00:44:05   and generally tends to get slightly hotter.

00:44:08   That said, these laptops are so power efficient,

00:44:12   and the fans are so low RPM and so quiet,

00:44:14   this is not a thing that you should worry about.

00:44:16   This is only just to say that if you are wondering,

00:44:19   does the 16-inch have higher cooling capacity than the 14?

00:44:22   The answer is absolutely yes, it does.

00:44:24   But it actually is extremely difficult to demonstrate that,

00:44:27   because you have to find a test

00:44:28   that stresses every single part of the system on a chip.

00:44:31   The CPU, the GPU, the memory subsystem, the SSD,

00:44:34   stresses it all at the same time in a sustained manner,

00:44:38   and then run it for a long time,

00:44:39   and then carefully measure.

00:44:41   And if you do all of that,

00:44:42   you can demonstrate that yes, under extreme situations,

00:44:45   the 14-inch will thermally throttle by a tiny amount,

00:44:47   and the 16-inch simply won't.

00:44:49   So it makes me wonder,

00:44:50   because high power mode is only on the 16-inch, right?

00:44:52   - Correct.

00:44:53   - It makes me wonder what the point of high power mode is

00:44:56   if you can't even get the 16-inch to throttle

00:44:58   no matter what you throw at it.

00:45:00   Like, oh, I'll run the fans faster?

00:45:03   Why bother running the fans faster?

00:45:04   Apparently, running the fans normally

00:45:07   has no thermal throttling.

00:45:08   So I don't know, maybe there are some workloads

00:45:10   that people haven't found yet.

00:45:11   But anyway, the 16-inch does have a bigger,

00:45:14   better cooler system, but it probably shouldn't matter to you

00:45:17   - Wouldn't it be kind of funny if high power mode

00:45:20   is literally just like the door close button on elevators?

00:45:23   It's just there to please the YouTubers?

00:45:26   - They very well could be.

00:45:27   - Yeah, you can see the,

00:45:28   well, no, it actually does make the fans spin faster.

00:45:30   People are doing all the little things

00:45:31   that show you the actual fan RPM,

00:45:33   and when you put on high power mode,

00:45:34   the fans preemptively run a little bit faster,

00:45:36   like the idle-hire, essentially.

00:45:37   - Right, sure, but maybe it doesn't

00:45:40   actually need to be that way for anything

00:45:42   that anybody might actually do.

00:45:43   - Yeah, I mean, it may be that people

00:45:45   just haven't found the right workload,

00:45:46   'cause you have to, just people are just trying to find

00:45:49   what can I do that stresses everything?

00:45:50   There are artificial ones that just do a bunch of math

00:45:54   in all of the units to try to make the thing melt,

00:45:56   and I bet maybe one of those would make it,

00:45:58   stressing the GPU as well would make it get hot.

00:46:03   But yeah, this--

00:46:04   - What happens if you run Slack and Dropbox at the same time?

00:46:08   - Nothing can, Marco, nothing can.

00:46:10   - That's the thing, though, all like, oh, I'm doing,

00:46:12   if you do anything you think would normally

00:46:14   cause your fans to spin up on an Intel laptop,

00:46:17   it's not going to on these,

00:46:18   because all those things that we talk about

00:46:20   don't touch the GPU at all.

00:46:21   It's just something grinding your CPU,

00:46:23   and it's grinding the CPU on these computers

00:46:25   is not going to make them break a sweat.

00:46:27   Most of the chip is covered with a GPU area,

00:46:29   and they're so low power, and the cooling system is so good.

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00:48:31   (upbeat music)

00:48:33   I am really excited to hear your iPhone 13 Pro case review,

00:48:38   and there are like 34 different bullets in this document,

00:48:41   so why don't you run it through,

00:48:43   run through all of them with us, please.

00:48:46   - All right, so after great lengths,

00:48:49   and actually spending a good amount of time

00:48:52   with each of these cases,

00:48:54   I got a bunch of different iPhone 13 Pro cases,

00:48:57   some of which have MagSafe, some of which don't,

00:49:00   and I finally have opinions,

00:49:02   and I wanted to share them before this phone got too old,

00:49:04   and it didn't matter anymore.

00:49:05   Where we last left off was,

00:49:08   I believe I had the Nudiant case that Casey, you also have.

00:49:12   - That's what I'm still using.

00:49:13   - Yeah, which is like, it's like a kind of, you know,

00:49:15   nice middle of the road, you know,

00:49:17   it has MagSafe in it, like it has some magnets.

00:49:21   It's kind of medium thickness, medium grip,

00:49:24   kind of medium everything, medium attractiveness.

00:49:27   Like it's just kind of medium everything.

00:49:30   It's fine.

00:49:31   It's not amazing in any possible way, but it's totally fine.

00:49:35   One area that I was not happy with

00:49:39   with the Nudiant case though,

00:49:40   is the first time I took it into my car,

00:49:44   and the MagSafe magnet on it was not strong enough.

00:49:49   I use a MagSafe car mount,

00:49:51   and it easily and repeatedly would fall off the mount

00:49:55   if I applied a little bit of pressure

00:49:56   to like the bottom half of the screen,

00:49:58   where it kind of like would lever itself off the mount,

00:50:01   and you know, the bottom of the screen

00:50:03   often contains controls in apps like Waze

00:50:06   that you might be using in the car.

00:50:08   So that was kind of a big problem.

00:50:10   So I decided, let me look at more cases,

00:50:13   and I wasn't super happy with the Nudiant's appearance either.

00:50:17   You know, it doesn't look that good.

00:50:19   It's fine, you know, it's a piece of blue matte plastic.

00:50:23   But it did feel pretty good, so I thought,

00:50:25   you know, this is good, but let me see if I can do better.

00:50:28   I also, I did try using the Apple silicone case

00:50:31   a little bit more.

00:50:32   I gave up on it.

00:50:33   It's too much friction going in and out of pockets.

00:50:36   I thought it might be different this time for some reason.

00:50:38   I don't know, maybe I'm just, you know,

00:50:40   hoping for things that will never come.

00:50:43   But I think just materially, that's never going to be good.

00:50:46   It's never gonna not have a lot of friction

00:50:48   going in and out of pockets with that material.

00:50:50   So whatever, you know, a lot of people use the silicone case

00:50:53   and enjoy it, more power to you.

00:50:54   It's not for me, for my needs.

00:50:56   I would also say that the Apple silicone case,

00:50:58   I got that blue jay color,

00:51:01   thinking it would look kind of cool.

00:51:03   It actually kind of looks flat and cheap.

00:51:06   I think one thing I have learned in this process,

00:51:09   these inexpensive materials that are used in cases,

00:51:11   you're best off with darker colors.

00:51:14   Kind of like John's theory of bad car body design,

00:51:18   or like cheap paint or whatever it is.

00:51:19   Like light colors kind of show

00:51:23   how low value the material is.

00:51:26   - No, it's the shape.

00:51:27   My theory for cars is the lighter the color,

00:51:29   the more you're able to actually see the shape of the car,

00:51:31   whereas if you have a car in all black,

00:51:33   it hides some of the curves, which may be undesirable.

00:51:36   Same thing with clothes, if you're trying to, you know,

00:51:38   accentuate curves, bright colors,

00:51:40   if you want to hide them dark.

00:51:41   - I should buy more dark clothes then.

00:51:43   So I learned kind of like,

00:51:46   the lighter colors I was going for

00:51:48   didn't often look good in these cases.

00:51:50   And I'll get to a little bit more of that in a second.

00:51:53   After the Apple silicone case and the Nudian,

00:51:55   I was kind of like, eh, let me see what I can do.

00:51:58   I asked people on Twitter and people on the show wrote in,

00:52:00   and I got a number of recommendations.

00:52:02   There were a couple that I could not test,

00:52:04   because they either aren't in stock yet,

00:52:07   or I ordered them and haven't arrived yet.

00:52:09   One of those is the bull strap leather case.

00:52:13   I'm actually not entirely sure I want leather anymore,

00:52:18   but I did actually pre-order one of these things

00:52:21   forever ago, it still hasn't shipped out.

00:52:23   It was estimated for, you know, quote November,

00:52:25   so it could show up any time.

00:52:27   And then I also, many people recommended

00:52:30   the Pitaka MagEase case series.

00:52:34   And that is not available for the iPhone 13 Pro yet

00:52:39   in the blue color, which is the color I would want.

00:52:42   The rest of them are kind of,

00:52:42   it kind of looks like carbon fibery.

00:52:44   It's not like a super attractive look, if I'm honest.

00:52:48   - Oh, no it's not.

00:52:49   - So I didn't test either of those,

00:52:51   even though they both came with a lot of recommendations.

00:52:53   So anyway, moving on to what I did test.

00:52:56   Everyone suggested that I try Peel.

00:52:59   Peel is a apparently famous brand of ultra thin cases.

00:53:04   I decided, you know, I went to the super thin

00:53:06   Peel iPhone 13 Pro case, and I decided to,

00:53:08   they had a color that was advertised as jet white.

00:53:11   It says it has a glossy finish closely resembling

00:53:13   the jet black iPhone finish, but in white.

00:53:16   And I thought, well that's interesting.

00:53:18   I loved the jet black iPhone, and I wanted to see,

00:53:22   like, does this actually feel that way?

00:53:24   So sure enough.

00:53:25   - So white just happened to you, did it?

00:53:27   - It just so happened to be white, isn't that something?

00:53:30   - Yeah, that can happen.

00:53:31   That's something that does happen from time to time.

00:53:33   - Yeah, isn't that something?

00:53:34   So first of all, I have to, before the case even arrived,

00:53:39   I had gotten a minimalist email from Peel entitled,

00:53:45   quote, let's talk about lifestyle.

00:53:48   That was apparently the first in a planned series

00:53:51   of emails about minimalism.

00:53:52   - Oh my gosh.

00:53:53   - And I felt like that was overreaching

00:53:55   for the nature of our relationship as,

00:53:58   I just ordered your $35 iPhone case, that's it.

00:54:01   It hasn't even arrived yet.

00:54:02   I don't want your emails about your minimalism theories.

00:54:05   That's fine, I really don't need that, thank you.

00:54:08   So, oh, and thanks also for opting me into your email list

00:54:11   without having a checkbox I could see.

00:54:12   That's real cool, Peel.

00:54:14   And then when the Peel case arrived,

00:54:17   it arrived in a box the size of a shoebox.

00:54:22   - Oh my gosh.

00:54:22   - With tons of packaging material.

00:54:24   Like, it was so, I'm like, okay, as far as I can tell,

00:54:28   Peel is a mostly, maybe a marketing company,

00:54:33   because one thing I also tried from people's recommendations

00:54:38   is the Totally, with two Es, Total, two Ls,

00:54:42   two Es, Totally matte case.

00:54:44   - Wait, I'm sorry, what color was the matte case?

00:54:47   - It was also, sorry, pearl white is the color I got.

00:54:52   - Just keeps happening to you, Marco, isn't that weird?

00:54:53   - I had the theory that maybe a white case would look good.

00:54:57   You know, I'm living my beach lifestyle,

00:54:59   I got a lot of light colors here, you know,

00:55:01   like white, blue, like, you know,

00:55:03   a lot of like light colors are going on

00:55:04   in my current life right now,

00:55:05   so I thought maybe that would be cool.

00:55:07   So I got the Totally case, it came with way less packaging

00:55:10   and I was not subject to any minimalism emails.

00:55:12   And I had to put a post-it note on the Peel and the Totally

00:55:17   just so I could tell them apart,

00:55:18   just so I could tell which one was which, rather,

00:55:20   because these things are identical.

00:55:23   I would be shocked if these were not the same case.

00:55:27   This is the same case made in the same factory,

00:55:29   I guarantee it.

00:55:31   There is no way that it's two different cases.

00:55:32   So anyway, Totally appears to just be the same,

00:55:36   whatever factory they're using, it's the same,

00:55:39   and they even have the same color options and everything,

00:55:40   so as far as I can tell, this is the same thing.

00:55:43   So if one of them appeals to you more than the other one,

00:55:45   go for it, the prices are around the same,

00:55:47   it doesn't, you know, who knows?

00:55:49   So anyway, Peel and Totally, both of these white cases

00:55:54   feel okay, they're very thin, as promised,

00:55:58   they look like garbage.

00:55:59   If you're gonna get one of these cases,

00:56:01   get a dark colored one,

00:56:03   because it's just a thin piece of plastic.

00:56:05   It looks like I wrapped my phone in heat shrink tubing

00:56:08   and ran a blow dryer over it.

00:56:09   That's, it's not a great look, and it feels okay,

00:56:13   but it's like, I can do a lot better than this.

00:56:16   Now, I also ordered from Totally

00:56:20   their transparent soft clear case,

00:56:23   so it's a soft clear, I don't know, yeah,

00:56:25   clear soft is what they call it in their options.

00:56:28   By the way, Peel now also offers

00:56:30   that exact same configuration, what a coincidence.

00:56:32   So the clear, the soft clear Totally case,

00:56:37   I absolutely love.

00:56:39   I never thought I would, you know,

00:56:40   so the downside to the soft clear Totally case

00:56:44   is that it does not have a MagSafe circle,

00:56:46   neither do the Ultra Thin, by the way.

00:56:49   So none of these have MagSafe,

00:56:50   and it's a little bit thicker than the Ultra Thin one,

00:56:53   but it has, it's like a gummy case.

00:56:55   You know, if you, there's people who have been

00:56:57   making phone cases out of this for years,

00:56:59   I don't know, I think it might be like a thick,

00:57:01   soft TPU or something, I don't know what the material

00:57:04   is officially called, but if you ever felt

00:57:06   like a rugged case, like in an Apple store,

00:57:09   like from whatever brand sells the little ruggedized ones,

00:57:12   it has that feel to it, so it's actually,

00:57:15   it feels kind of like a non-sticky gummy candy,

00:57:19   if that makes sense, but the result is, first of all,

00:57:23   it looks amazing, because I have my little,

00:57:26   like, you know, baby blue iPhone Pro in there,

00:57:29   and you get to see most of the iPhone through it.

00:57:33   Now, you don't really see the side bands very well,

00:57:36   like just, the design of the material is such that

00:57:39   you don't see much of the detail through the sides,

00:57:42   but you do see the back color totally fine,

00:57:45   and it looks fantastic, and it feels the best.

00:57:49   This is by far the nicest feeling case that I have.

00:57:53   Again, the only downside here is no MagSafe,

00:57:57   but I also recognize that putting a MagSafe circle

00:58:00   of magnets in the back would also kind of make it uglier,

00:58:02   and so I understand, you know, just like the Apple case,

00:58:05   right, so I understand why they didn't do that.

00:58:08   If the Apple case, the Apple Clear case, I mean,

00:58:10   if it was squishy plastic like this

00:58:12   instead of the hard plastic that it is,

00:58:14   that would be perfect, and I would get that

00:58:16   every single time now, because I love the way this looks,

00:58:18   and I love the way it feels.

00:58:19   - I'm very surprised by this.

00:58:20   So, it's the iPhone, the totally iPhone 13 Pro

00:58:25   transparent clear soft, like, that's not necessarily

00:58:29   the name, but I just wanna make sure

00:58:30   I've got all of these right.

00:58:31   - Correct.

00:58:32   - And so, how soft is the soft?

00:58:34   Like, if it's clear plastic, I'm having troubles computing

00:58:38   how this can be soft.

00:58:39   - Look at the picture, they show someone bending it.

00:58:42   Like, one of the pictures shows it bending,

00:58:44   to give you an idea.

00:58:45   - Oh, yeah, okay, okay, I see what you're saying.

00:58:47   - What do you call it?

00:58:48   OtterBox makes cases of this type, too,

00:58:49   'cause my daughter's phone has a case like this on it.

00:58:51   - Yeah, OtterBox, there was that one brand,

00:58:54   I forget what it was, but it had that, like,

00:58:56   strip of yellow around the outside band for,

00:58:59   like, the acid case band for a while.

00:59:01   It was like an impact strip or whatever.

00:59:03   They sold them in Apple stores.

00:59:04   Adam had an iPad case like that a while ago.

00:59:06   It feels just like that.

00:59:07   Like, you've probably felt this material before

00:59:11   in an iPhone case or an iPad case.

00:59:12   Like, this is not a new revelation.

00:59:14   This is a common material, I just don't know what it's called.

00:59:17   But it is awesome, and I love how it feels.

00:59:21   I do worry a little bit, like,

00:59:23   that because it's so flexible,

00:59:25   you could easily just, like, scoot it over,

00:59:27   away from the case with your finger,

00:59:28   like, around the edges, and I worry that maybe

00:59:30   a lot of dust might get in the edges that way.

00:59:32   - What you should be worried about is moisture,

00:59:34   'cause I've seen this happen again with my daughter's phone.

00:59:36   If you get kind of, you know, like,

00:59:37   it looks like a water stain or, like,

00:59:39   water trapped between, condensation trapped

00:59:41   between the case and the phone.

00:59:43   - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:59:44   - It can happen.

00:59:44   I mean, you can either just live with it

00:59:46   or you can take the case off and scrub it out

00:59:48   and try to be more careful, but.

00:59:49   - I mean, wouldn't that be a problem with any case,

00:59:51   and wouldn't a clear case actually alert you

00:59:52   to the problem earlier so you could fix it?

00:59:54   - Right, but you wouldn't see it with the real case.

00:59:55   Like, it makes it uglier.

00:59:56   It's an aesthetic issue, not a danger,

00:59:59   not a water danger issue.

01:00:00   It just looks like, you know,

01:00:01   especially if it's just clear.

01:00:02   Like, my daughter's is made of this material,

01:00:04   but it also has, like, designs painted on it,

01:00:07   but it's mostly clear.

01:00:08   But if it was just entirely,

01:00:10   it also depends on what color the phone is.

01:00:12   It's an aesthetic issue.

01:00:12   If it doesn't bother you,

01:00:13   I bet people get this and never care

01:00:15   that there's, like, a weird, you know,

01:00:18   area that's darker or lighter

01:00:19   because of some condensation that was there once or whatever.

01:00:22   But, you know, you can always take it off and clean it,

01:00:23   but just, that can happen.

01:00:25   - Oh, I didn't know that.

01:00:26   Okay, thanks.

01:00:27   Yeah, so I spent most of the time in the intervening,

01:00:30   you know, time between when we last talked about this

01:00:32   and now I've spent most of that time with this case on

01:00:35   because it's the one I'm happiest with overall

01:00:37   with the exception of no MagSafe.

01:00:39   And that's a big exception,

01:00:40   but it feels so good and looks pretty good otherwise,

01:00:44   I was willing to make that exception when I wasn't driving.

01:00:49   But that being said, like, when I, you know,

01:00:51   when I switch back to this case in a minute,

01:00:53   after I review the other one I have here in a second,

01:00:55   I gotta figure out, like,

01:00:58   I think I might just have to keep a different case

01:01:01   that has MagSafe in my backpack that I bring

01:01:03   when I go on car trips so that I can, like,

01:01:06   swap cases when I'm in the car.

01:01:08   I mean, I'm not driving every day,

01:01:09   I'm driving, like, every three weeks.

01:01:11   So it's not that big of a deal.

01:01:13   But anyway, so that's the totally clear soft case.

01:01:16   Love it, but no MagSafe.

01:01:18   And then finally, a few people recommended the,

01:01:22   I don't know how this is pronounced, Caudabe, Caudabe?

01:01:24   I don't know, it's C-A-U-D-A-B-E.

01:01:27   Oh, and I should mention too that Peel and Totally

01:01:29   have no branding whatsoever, which is great.

01:01:31   The Caudabe has a small logo.

01:01:34   This, the Caudabe case is not attractive.

01:01:38   It has, like, almost like a pebbled

01:01:41   or textured plastic finish.

01:01:43   It kind of looks and feels like a popcorn ceiling.

01:01:46   (laughing)

01:01:47   - Oh my.

01:01:48   - And it's moderately, it's like medium thickness,

01:01:51   it's not an ultra thin case.

01:01:52   It almost feels like coarse sandpaper.

01:01:54   But what's nice about it is that

01:01:57   the overall grippiness and tackiness of it

01:02:00   is actually fairly similar to leather, I would say.

01:02:04   Like having used leather phone cases for many years,

01:02:07   I think this is very close to leather without being leather,

01:02:10   which has some benefits, you know,

01:02:11   in things like water resistance and humanitarian,

01:02:14   you know, issues and environmental issues.

01:02:17   So this is pretty nice functionally,

01:02:21   and it has very strong MagSafe magnets.

01:02:24   So I love it for that.

01:02:26   It just is kind of boring and ugly looking, if I'm honest,

01:02:30   and it's not, it doesn't feel nice,

01:02:33   it just feels functional.

01:02:35   And it's highly functional.

01:02:35   And after like, I've had it on for about a week,

01:02:39   and after about a day I stopped caring

01:02:41   about how nice it wasn't,

01:02:42   'cause it does work really well,

01:02:44   but it's not like, it doesn't give me the nice feelings

01:02:48   that the clear one did.

01:02:49   The clear one both looks and feels better,

01:02:53   but it doesn't have MagSafe,

01:02:54   and this has like the strongest MagSafe of anything

01:02:56   I've tested.

01:02:58   So overall, the Caudabe or Caudabe sheath case,

01:03:02   I like it, I don't love it.

01:03:05   This might be the one that I put in my backpack

01:03:08   for car trips, 'cause it has such good MagSafe,

01:03:10   but I think I'm gonna switch back to the totally clear case

01:03:13   for my like most of the time case.

01:03:16   That being said, a few people recommended an option

01:03:19   that I hadn't considered, that I didn't even know existed,

01:03:23   and once I heard about it, it made perfect sense.

01:03:25   - A sack, you put the phone in a sack

01:03:27   anytime you're not using it.

01:03:28   - A pouch, I believe.

01:03:29   - No, it's bumpers, bumper cases, right?

01:03:31   - No, so an option I didn't even realize existed,

01:03:35   for very cheap amounts of money,

01:03:36   you can go on Amazon or eBay and buy MagSafe rings

01:03:40   of magnets that you can stick onto anything.

01:03:43   - Oh my goodness.

01:03:43   - And so I got a couple of them here,

01:03:46   and sure enough, they work totally fine.

01:03:49   And you can therefore, technically you could convert

01:03:53   a non-MagSafe case into a MagSafe case.

01:03:57   - You're putting them on the outside of the case,

01:03:58   to be clear, right?

01:03:59   - Well, you could do either.

01:04:01   Now, here's the problem, right?

01:04:04   - Put them on the inside of the case.

01:04:06   - You can either stick them on the outside,

01:04:09   which would work great in the sense

01:04:11   that it would stick really well for MagSafe,

01:04:13   but then you have a ring of magnets stuck to your case

01:04:16   that you have to feel all the time, and look at all the time.

01:04:19   And I don't want to feel or look at a ring of MagSafe magnets

01:04:23   on the outside of my case.

01:04:24   If you put it on the inside of the case,

01:04:27   now I feel like you've created a glass breaking risk

01:04:30   on that back glass because you're introducing tension

01:04:33   by putting something that's moderately thick

01:04:36   between the case and the phone,

01:04:38   which are made to have no tolerance between them, right?

01:04:42   - You made a place to catch all the excess moisture

01:04:44   and crumbs and the edges of the magnets

01:04:47   can scratch the back of your phone,

01:04:48   and you're distending the case,

01:04:50   which is gonna make it fit less well.

01:04:52   This is all bad.

01:04:53   - Right, yeah.

01:04:53   So I tried it on the inside for like five minutes,

01:04:56   and I'm like, no, I can't do this.

01:04:58   (laughing)

01:04:59   So--

01:05:00   - It's like having a seed stuck

01:05:01   between your teeth constantly.

01:05:03   - Yeah, so I couldn't abide that.

01:05:05   So for now, I couldn't find a use

01:05:08   for the two little magnet sheets I bought on Amazon,

01:05:11   but it is a cool option to know you can do that,

01:05:15   and at some point, maybe this might be useful

01:05:17   for a project, like if I wanted to have a place to stick

01:05:20   an iPhone with MagSafe somewhere, like that could be useful.

01:05:22   - So you didn't try bumper cases?

01:05:24   - I didn't try bumper cases, no.

01:05:26   My assumption is that it would increase

01:05:29   the pocket friction in and out problem

01:05:31   because it would have to be fairly thick

01:05:32   to even stay on and work,

01:05:35   but maybe, I haven't tried a modern bumper.

01:05:37   Maybe I could be wrong.

01:05:38   - Yeah, I think the pocket friction

01:05:40   would definitely be a thing.

01:05:41   You're probably right, but it'd be interesting

01:05:43   to try one, just see what it's like.

01:05:44   I mean, the obvious downside is you're still gonna screw up

01:05:47   the back of your phone, but it will, you know,

01:05:50   you'll scratch it up or whatever,

01:05:51   but hopefully you won't break it

01:05:52   'cause the bumpers usually do stick out pretty far

01:05:54   from the front and the back,

01:05:55   and I think it will also make your phone feel bigger

01:05:57   than one of these cases, just because again,

01:05:59   the bumper, to do its job, its whole point is to stick out

01:06:02   beyond the back and beyond the front

01:06:04   by enough to catch your phone and absorb the impact,

01:06:07   and I think that'll make your phone feel thicker,

01:06:09   but I still have fond memories of the iPhone 4,

01:06:13   4S, whatever it was bumper.

01:06:14   - Yeah, same.

01:06:15   - Oh, I should also clarify, buttons-wise,

01:06:19   both the Cottabay case and the squishy clear case,

01:06:24   both have covered buttons, and both of them cover them

01:06:28   with like nice plastic buttons.

01:06:30   They're not metal, you know, it's the same material

01:06:32   as the case, it seems, but they're nice.

01:06:35   They're nice to cover.

01:06:36   Only the mute switch is uncovered on both,

01:06:39   and otherwise it's covered.

01:06:39   Also, all of these have covered bottoms, so sorry, John.

01:06:44   I know you like your naked bottoms.

01:06:46   - Yeah, no, I have a look through this.

01:06:46   I don't have an iPhone 13 anyways, so I don't care,

01:06:48   but yeah, they're all covered bottoms, so no good.

01:06:50   - Yeah, so very happy with the Cottabay

01:06:53   and the clear squishy totally for two very different reasons.

01:06:57   Cottabay works really well, has the best MagSafe I've found,

01:07:01   but it's kind of ugly and not very nice feeling.

01:07:04   The TPU squishy totally clear case is awesome

01:07:09   and looks and feels great, but has no MagSafe.

01:07:12   So that's it, those are the two I'm gonna stick with,

01:07:13   I think, for the time being.

01:07:15   We are sponsored this week by Caseta

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01:09:10   Thanks to Caseta for turning all my lights on and off

01:09:13   in a very smart way and for sponsoring our show.

01:09:15   - John, I think you in particular wanted to talk about,

01:09:22   hey, let's assume for a second

01:09:24   that these MacBook Pros were not perfect,

01:09:26   'cause man, they sure seem like they are.

01:09:28   What could you do to make them better, John?

01:09:29   - Yeah, we've just done a couple of shows,

01:09:32   a couple of weeks talking about how these laptops

01:09:34   have fulfilled all our wildest dreams

01:09:36   and everything we wanted came true on them

01:09:38   and they're great.

01:09:39   And all of that is true.

01:09:41   But people may be thinking,

01:09:42   well, now that they've perfected the laptops,

01:09:44   you'll never have to talk about them again

01:09:46   because the laptop problem is solved.

01:09:47   But of course, nothing is so perfect.

01:09:49   These laptops when they're released,

01:09:51   it's very clear that there are things about them

01:09:53   that could be upgraded, but this is good.

01:09:55   The things I'm gonna list off here,

01:09:57   and it's not a lot of them,

01:09:58   are going to be the things that you would expect

01:10:00   of any technology product.

01:10:02   When a technology product comes out,

01:10:03   even if it is as perfect as it can be,

01:10:05   which these laptops are not necessarily,

01:10:07   but they're really good,

01:10:08   but not as perfect as they can be,

01:10:10   technology marches on and eventually

01:10:12   there are better things you can put in them.

01:10:14   And so rather than the past many years we've had

01:10:17   gnashing our teeth about the fundamental design

01:10:19   of these products in terms of

01:10:21   what features does the product have?

01:10:23   What shape is it?

01:10:24   What holes does it have on the side?

01:10:25   Like really basic stuff.

01:10:28   We have the luxury now of talking about computers

01:10:30   the way we used to be able to talk about them

01:10:31   with is let's talk about the actual technology in them

01:10:34   and see if there is an ever so slightly better technology

01:10:36   that they can replace it with.

01:10:37   So if you look at these MacBook Pros and say,

01:10:41   hey, in next year's model or the year after or whatever,

01:10:44   in what ways could these be improved?

01:10:46   Here are the list of obvious improvements,

01:10:48   some of which we have touched upon before.

01:10:50   We've got an SD card slot now.

01:10:53   That SD card slot does not support all of the latest

01:10:56   SD card standards.

01:10:57   Not a big deal 'cause most people don't have

01:10:59   the high-end ones.

01:11:00   In fact, some of these standards are so new

01:11:02   that you can't even find cards that support them yet.

01:11:05   But the one in the MacBook Pros is like

01:11:09   it supports UHS-II speeds I believe.

01:11:12   UHS-III is out, SD Express is out.

01:11:16   The other thing to consider for the SD card slot is

01:11:19   some like Sony cameras have a slot, have two slots

01:11:23   in some of them, that takes either an SD card

01:11:26   or a CF Express Type-A card.

01:11:28   CF Express Type-A is a little bit obscure.

01:11:30   I think only Sony cameras use it.

01:11:31   But the point is you can actually have one slot

01:11:34   that takes both SD cards and CF Express.

01:11:36   Any one of these updates, either just make the SD card

01:11:39   fast slot, faster by supporting SD Express or UHS-III, right?

01:11:43   Or make it a combo slot that supports both.

01:11:45   That's an easy upgrade.

01:11:47   You've already got the slot, it's there.

01:11:48   Make it faster and better.

01:11:49   And the speed differences are big.

01:11:51   Like UHS-II is 156 megabytes per second.

01:11:55   UHS-III is 312 megabytes per second.

01:11:57   That's full duplex, so double those if you use

01:12:00   all the bandwidth in one direction.

01:12:01   CF Express goes from like one gigabyte per second

01:12:05   up to four gigabytes per second.

01:12:06   So there's lots of headroom to make that SD slot better.

01:12:09   So that's good, let's upgrade that.

01:12:11   In the same vein, HDMI.

01:12:12   We're complaining that it's not HDMI 2.1.

01:12:14   What's an obvious upgrade?

01:12:15   Hey, in the next round of these with the M2 Max and M2 Pro

01:12:19   or whatever, make the HDMI support, HDMI port support

01:12:23   HDMI 2.1, 120 hertz, 4K, HDR, all the good stuff.

01:12:28   Put in a better chip that converts from display port

01:12:31   to HDMI 2.1 or whatever.

01:12:33   Again, we're not saying you need to fundamentally

01:12:35   change anything, it's just you've got an HDMI port,

01:12:37   you can make that HDMI port better.

01:12:39   One more easy one, camera.

01:12:42   Hey, it's a 1080p camera, that's great.

01:12:44   But you know, Logitech sells 4K cameras.

01:12:48   Maybe it's hard to fit one of those

01:12:49   in the tiny skinny screen lid, I understand that.

01:12:52   If you can't fit in a 4K camera, then maybe you find a way

01:12:55   to get a wide angle camera so you can support center stage.

01:12:58   The camera can be better.

01:13:00   We should continue to ask for the camera to improve.

01:13:02   We should not be stuck with another decade

01:13:04   of that same cruddy camera in there,

01:13:06   even though yes, I know they just updated it.

01:13:09   The screen, now we start to get into sort of

01:13:10   optional extra stuff.

01:13:12   The screen, it's great, everyone loves the screen.

01:13:14   There was a time when the MacBook Pro offered you an option

01:13:18   for a glossy or matte screen.

01:13:20   The iMac, you can get the iMac with a nano texture screen.

01:13:24   - The big one.

01:13:25   - Yep, and of course the XDR has its very expensive

01:13:28   nano texture screen.

01:13:29   Whether it's nano texture or just plain old matte,

01:13:31   for professionals, some people might prefer a matte screen.

01:13:34   That would be a cool option to have.

01:13:36   That's something we can roll out in the next generation

01:13:38   if there is any demand for it.

01:13:39   Or even just improving the anti-glare coating

01:13:42   that's on the screen, something in that vein, right?

01:13:45   Cellular, we didn't get to this here.

01:13:47   We still seem to think it's possible.

01:13:49   iPads have it, they're very similar on the inside now.

01:13:52   It would be cool to have cellular.

01:13:53   - Hell yeah.

01:13:54   - Ethernet on the power brick.

01:13:57   There's no room on the other side of these machines

01:13:58   'cause they're too skinny.

01:13:59   You can get an adapter or dongle to do it.

01:14:02   MagSafe doesn't seem like it has a way to convey Ethernet

01:14:06   to the power brick, so maybe this would have to be a USB-C.

01:14:09   You couldn't use MagSafe if you bought an Ethernet

01:14:11   on the power brick, maybe you couldn't be optional.

01:14:12   Hey, this is I think the first year that Apple's

01:14:14   given us an option to choose power bricks.

01:14:16   So maybe one of the options could be forgo MagSafe

01:14:19   in exchange for a USB-C power brick.

01:14:23   A power brick with Ethernet on it with USB-C on both ends

01:14:25   that is essentially a Thunderbolt cable of some kind.

01:14:28   That would probably be weird and expensive.

01:14:30   But that would be an interesting potential option.

01:14:33   And the final one, and we're really reaching

01:14:35   the bottom of the barrel here, is for like,

01:14:38   is there anything people don't like about this machine

01:14:40   physically speaking?

01:14:41   Some people still think the trackpad is too big.

01:14:43   I know that seems weird, isn't a bigger trackpad better?

01:14:45   It's nicer to sort of swipe around?

01:14:48   But it's about accidental input.

01:14:49   A lot of people find it difficult to use this laptop

01:14:52   without accidentally touching the trackpad.

01:14:54   And yes, Mac OS has sort of accidental input rejection,

01:14:57   but those features sometimes are a little bit unreliable

01:15:02   and can be more annoying than useful,

01:15:05   but if you turn them off, you have to deal

01:15:07   with your own accidental input.

01:15:08   So I'm not, I mean, have they struck the right balance

01:15:12   between comfortable, useful trackpad size

01:15:15   and avoiding accidental input?

01:15:16   They may think about adjusting that.

01:15:19   But I'm just excited to be here to list off this thing,

01:15:23   this list of obvious improvements

01:15:24   and have them be just like technological improvements.

01:15:27   Oh, and you know, I could add things like Thunderbolt 5,

01:15:29   which probably won't be out in time for this,

01:15:30   but like, but yeah, like we feel like you've got the,

01:15:33   you've got it right.

01:15:33   Like, you know, you've got the design of this product right.

01:15:36   It's like, you know, car, it's got an engine,

01:15:37   it's got wheels, next year, just make the engine faster

01:15:39   and get better fuel economy and make your body

01:15:41   nicer looking, make the seats more comfortable.

01:15:43   Like all the normal stuff that we expect to happen

01:15:46   year over year and these machines, despite us being,

01:15:49   you know, like a glass of ice water and hell for us, right?

01:15:53   Despite them being, oh, thank God,

01:15:54   they finally fixed everything about the computers.

01:15:56   Almost every single thing they put in them,

01:15:58   because these computers were designed years ago

01:16:00   and technology market design could be upgraded.

01:16:02   And I basically listed them in the order of,

01:16:05   I think their usefulness.

01:16:07   And getting down to like track pad shrink

01:16:09   and matte screens or whatever, but like,

01:16:11   yeah, to upgrade all the ports.

01:16:12   Like, make Thunderbolt faster when you can,

01:16:14   make the SD card slot better,

01:16:15   because it's already kind of slow, make HDMI better,

01:16:18   make a better camera, all that good stuff.

01:16:20   And so we are, we're on the other side of the,

01:16:24   with the valley of doubt, whatever we were calling it

01:16:26   before, the valley of doom for these laptops

01:16:27   and now we can just start asking for them to be better

01:16:30   in plain old boring technical ways.

01:16:32   - Yeah, which is a great place to be.

01:16:34   Like remember back, I mean, you know,

01:16:36   this show existed for a few years before the,

01:16:40   you know, terrible, you know, 2016 laptops came out.

01:16:42   There was a time when we were just kind of like,

01:16:45   oh, you know what, this thing hasn't updated in a while.

01:16:47   Whenever you update it next,

01:16:48   hey, wouldn't it be great to have this, you know, XYZ?

01:16:51   This is a wonderful place to be.

01:16:52   - Yep, couldn't agree more.

01:16:54   All right, so in the kind of similar vein

01:16:57   to what we were just talking about, but a corollary of it,

01:16:59   if we were to make new iMacs today,

01:17:03   let's just concentrate on the CPUs.

01:17:05   What system on a chip would you put

01:17:07   in an iMac these days, Jon?

01:17:09   - There's been a lot of discussion about that

01:17:10   and I just want to reiterate a point that we've made

01:17:12   in the past because it seems like people are getting stars

01:17:14   in their eyes with all the rumors of the Jade 2C and 4C die

01:17:19   of like, you know, basically taking multiples of the M1 Macs

01:17:24   and just putting two or four of them inside the thing.

01:17:26   Like that'll be great for an iMac.

01:17:28   And I want people to sort of come back to earth a little bit

01:17:32   by just reminding everyone that the exact same chips

01:17:35   that they put in these laptops, the M1 Pro and the M1 Macs

01:17:39   are perfectly fine for a big iMac.

01:17:42   It doesn't mean that there won't be a bigger, badder chip,

01:17:45   but I'm saying if you get, if they sell, you know,

01:17:47   an iMac with a big screen on it, right?

01:17:49   With a big, really nice HD,

01:17:51   like take the 16 inch laptop screen and blow it up to,

01:17:53   you know, 27 or 30 inches, like that kind of quality screen.

01:17:56   And then just literally take the insides of the laptops

01:17:59   and put them in an even better cooling solution than iMac.

01:18:03   There's nothing wrong with that computer.

01:18:04   These are appropriate chips for an iMac.

01:18:07   'Cause remember the iMac doesn't have to be

01:18:09   the pro computer, whether they call it iMac Pro or not,

01:18:11   or whatever, it doesn't have to be a pro.

01:18:13   And I wouldn't, I think the iMac with a big screen

01:18:16   would be a worst product

01:18:18   if you couldn't get these laptop chips in it.

01:18:20   Because the M1 Pro and the M1 Macs are great chips for,

01:18:24   yes, a desktop computer, 'cause they're that good, right?

01:18:28   Yes, if you can get a J2C die in there

01:18:31   and have it be like, you know, the iMac Pro that is,

01:18:33   you know, has twice as many cores.

01:18:34   Great, you can do that too,

01:18:35   depending on how big you wanna make the iMac.

01:18:37   If you're trying to make it as skinny as a 24 inch,

01:18:39   you might be a little constrained.

01:18:40   But I just want everyone to stop thinking

01:18:44   that the new iMac, the new big iMac is going to come out

01:18:48   and it's not going to share chips with these laptops.

01:18:50   It has to, it will, it must,

01:18:52   unless it's gonna be out like two years from now.

01:18:54   'Cause these chips are perfect for an iMac,

01:18:58   for a slim, quiet, all-in-one, you know,

01:19:02   desk, yes, desktop computer.

01:19:04   It doesn't have to be as thin as the 24 inch.

01:19:05   It can be thicker than that.

01:19:06   Hell, it can be as thick as the 16 inch laptop it wants,

01:19:09   but the M1 Macs, thumbs up for that in an iMac.

01:19:12   And also thumbs up, obviously, for doubling that

01:19:14   or, you know, quadrupling it.

01:19:16   Or if you wanna do the big honking chip in the iMac,

01:19:17   I'm all for it, I love it, it's great.

01:19:19   But if you don't, that's fine too.

01:19:22   That makes sense.

01:19:23   - Yeah, 'cause like, if you look at historically,

01:19:27   if you rule out the iMac Pro for a minute,

01:19:30   the large iMac, for years before that and after that,

01:19:35   always had roughly the performance envelope

01:19:38   of the 15 inch MacBook Pro.

01:19:40   It usually had like similarly classed chips,

01:19:43   but the desktop version of those chips.

01:19:45   But you had generally similar core counts,

01:19:48   similar performance, yet the iMac could go

01:19:50   a little bit higher with everything

01:19:52   because it had, you know, more power

01:19:53   and more, you know, heat thermal transfer capacity.

01:19:56   But for the most part, you know, the iMac

01:19:59   and the 15 inch MacBook Pro were usually

01:20:01   like very closely performing.

01:20:04   They were in the same performance class.

01:20:06   - In CPU, the iMacs tended to have way better GPUs

01:20:09   just because they had more cooling capacity.

01:20:11   - Sure, right.

01:20:12   But, so I think for the large iMac,

01:20:16   which still, you know, that's still an unanswered question

01:20:19   on how that's going to move to Apple Silicon.

01:20:21   But for the large iMac, I think it is almost certain

01:20:25   that it will have these exact chips in it.

01:20:26   And the only question mark is why we haven't

01:20:29   seen it released yet.

01:20:31   And that might be as simple as they sell way more laptops

01:20:35   and maybe they didn't have enough M1 Pro

01:20:38   and Max chip capacity to release both

01:20:41   of those products at once.

01:20:42   So maybe the iMac will come in the spring

01:20:43   or something like that.

01:20:45   Or maybe there's some other thing they're waiting on

01:20:46   for the iMac or whatever.

01:20:48   But, yeah, I'm with you.

01:20:50   I don't expect the, you know, the Jade 2C and 4C

01:20:53   kind of thing, I don't expect that for the iMac.

01:20:55   And I don't expect there to be something like the iMac Pro

01:21:00   in the past in the sense that it was the Mac Pro's

01:21:03   processors in an iMac.

01:21:05   If we get that as an option, that's great.

01:21:08   And I, you know, I'm not gonna complain if we get that.

01:21:11   But I'm also, I wouldn't hold my breath for that.

01:21:14   'Cause I think what we're seeing here

01:21:16   is really quite elegant.

01:21:17   We have a large slice of Apple's product line

01:21:21   using the M1.

01:21:23   We have now a moderately sized slice of the product line

01:21:27   using the larger version of that, the M1 Pro/Max.

01:21:32   And in the future down the road,

01:21:34   we will most likely see the Mac Pro offering the big

01:21:38   like multi-die version of that,

01:21:40   however they choose to do that.

01:21:42   And I think that's the only computer

01:21:46   we're gonna see that in.

01:21:46   I think it's only gonna be the Mac Pro

01:21:48   where we get that big,

01:21:49   because I think that's going to be a very expensive

01:21:51   processor for them to make.

01:21:52   However they do it, whether it's one giant die,

01:21:55   or whether it's chiplets, or whatever, you know,

01:21:57   stuff we don't really know that much about.

01:22:00   However they do it, it's going to be big and expensive.

01:22:03   And so putting that in a Mac Pro makes total sense.

01:22:06   Putting it in a like 2,000-ish dollar,

01:22:09   27 or 30-inch iMac makes a lot less financial sense.

01:22:13   - If they have a product called iMac Pro,

01:22:15   I can see J2C die in there.

01:22:17   - I think, first of all, it wouldn't surprise me at all

01:22:21   if the Apple Silicon transition of the large iMac

01:22:25   is called iMac Pro,

01:22:27   even if it doesn't have the Mac Pro chips in it.

01:22:30   - Yeah, I mean, these chips are used in Pro.

01:22:32   Mac Book has Pro at the end of it as well in these chips.

01:22:35   - Yeah, so that's why I think we're moving towards a future,

01:22:39   actually probably a pretty near future,

01:22:42   where the Mac Book Pro and the large iMac,

01:22:46   which might be called the iMac Pro, will use the same chip.

01:22:50   And then the smaller Mac Book and the smaller iMac

01:22:53   will use the same chip, which by the way,

01:22:55   iPads, the high-end iPads also use that chip.

01:22:58   And then the phone and the low-end iPads

01:23:01   use the A series of chips.

01:23:04   And then the watch and the HomePods use the S series of chips.

01:23:08   These are all scaled up and scaled down versions

01:23:11   of very similar basic building blocks

01:23:13   of the basic core designs.

01:23:15   And that allows them to spread out the R&D costs massively,

01:23:19   you know, that they're doing all this R&D anyway

01:23:22   for the phone processor, and they get to spread it

01:23:24   across their entire product line.

01:23:26   That's an incredible scale thing they're doing,

01:23:29   and it's very clever, and it's resulting

01:23:31   in really great output.

01:23:31   But I think what this ultimately will lead to

01:23:34   for us customers is fewer choices

01:23:37   of how many different processors

01:23:39   are gonna be in the products.

01:23:40   So I don't expect there to be a lot of variation here.

01:23:43   Frankly, the only reason I think we have variation now

01:23:45   with the M1 Pro and Macs and the different core counts

01:23:47   and everything, I think it's a binning issue.

01:23:49   And as the manufacturing process of these gets better,

01:23:53   some of those options might go away.

01:23:55   Like some of the low-end options might just disappear.

01:23:57   - And depending on what choices they make

01:23:59   for the industrial design of the big iMac,

01:24:01   it is possible that they could clock them higher

01:24:04   and heat them up more, because you can put

01:24:06   a hell of a lot more cooling in a behind,

01:24:09   like 27-inch or 30-inch screen, if you choose to.

01:24:11   If they go super-duper thin, then it'll probably

01:24:14   just be clocked like the laptops are or whatever.

01:24:16   But as that events from the 16-inch

01:24:19   having a little bit more headroom than the 14-inch

01:24:21   when under super-duper load, that's how you might think,

01:24:24   why would anyone buy an iMac?

01:24:25   It's not differentiating itself.

01:24:27   It's a desktop computer, but the laptops are just as fast.

01:24:30   The iMac can be faster if Apple chooses to make it.

01:24:33   Just clock it higher, burn off more heat,

01:24:34   put bigger fans, like there's plenty of room.

01:24:37   - Yeah, that's a good point.

01:24:38   And historically, when the iMac has been faster

01:24:42   than the MacBook Pro, usually it's faster,

01:24:45   excluding GPU stuff.

01:24:46   Usually it's faster by not a massive percentage,

01:24:49   maybe 10% or something, not usually a very, very big deal.

01:24:53   And so they could get that kind of gain

01:24:56   by just minor clock and cooling changes if they wanted to,

01:24:59   but still using the same chip.

01:25:01   So that wouldn't surprise me if they do that.

01:25:03   But if you look at the M1 iMac, I think performs

01:25:08   exactly the same as all of their M1 Macs, right?

01:25:11   Or is it slightly faster?

01:25:12   - It's thinner than all the other.

01:25:14   - I know, right?

01:25:14   - My computer is extremely thin.

01:25:16   I really hope the big iMac, they don't try

01:25:18   to go for that thinness.

01:25:20   - That's honestly, I'm really curious

01:25:22   how they're going to do that,

01:25:23   because I'm sure they are tempted to,

01:25:25   because they have the ability now.

01:25:28   If you look at the MacBook Pros,

01:25:30   they're pretty damn thin, and you could make

01:25:33   an iMac Pro that thickness and have all the same guts.

01:25:38   Keep in mind, all the previous, all the Intel iMac cases

01:25:42   were designed to accommodate spinning hard drives,

01:25:46   and 3.5 inch spinning hard drives at that, big ones.

01:25:48   So that's why they have that giant hump in the back,

01:25:51   and they had larger cooling needs most of the time.

01:25:54   When the iMac Pro came out, the iMac Pro never supported

01:25:56   a spinning hard drive, but they replaced that,

01:25:59   they kind of used that interior volume they had

01:26:01   to put this massive cooling system in

01:26:04   so they could put Xeons in there.

01:26:06   With whatever they do with the Apple Silicon ones,

01:26:08   they won't need to do that anymore.

01:26:10   They have both no spinning drives,

01:26:11   by the way, the 21 inch iMac that had the spinning drive

01:26:14   and was non-retina was finally discontinued, like last week.

01:26:17   - Hey!

01:26:18   - We finally, Apple stopped selling spinning hard drives

01:26:20   like last week, but anyway, and the non-retina screen,

01:26:24   I believe that also had, so we finally finished

01:26:27   the retina transition nine years into it.

01:26:30   - My goodness.

01:26:32   - Oh no, more than that.

01:26:33   If you count retina starting with the iPhone 4,

01:26:36   instead of the 15 inch MacBook Pro, that began in 2010.

01:26:41   So anyway, but retina transition on Macs

01:26:45   took nine years to complete.

01:26:47   Anyway, so they can, physically, they can go ultra thin

01:26:53   on the iMac, on the large iMac/iMac Pro as well

01:26:57   if they wanted to, and the only question would become

01:27:00   where do they put ports and stuff like that?

01:27:03   - Where do they put the SD card slot, huh?

01:27:05   This is gonna be a test of what lessons have they learned?

01:27:09   - They had many years of complaining about the laptops.

01:27:11   Have people, they haven't removed, I mean,

01:27:13   they removed it from the little iMac, but like,

01:27:15   ah, it's the little iMac and it's so thin

01:27:17   you can't even fit a USB-A port on the back of it

01:27:19   and you can't put a headphone, we understand that product.

01:27:22   It's the consumer product, it's thin for mostly

01:27:25   for fashion reasons, we excuse it, we allow it.

01:27:28   But if they replace all of the big iMacs

01:27:30   with iMacs that are as thin as that small one

01:27:32   and you can't put a headphone jack on the back

01:27:34   and you can't put USB-A and you can't fit SD,

01:27:36   then why did you make a big one, right?

01:27:39   So I do hope they don't go quite that thin.

01:27:42   - Yeah, I hope you're right because the large iMac

01:27:46   served me well for so long, and it served so many people

01:27:50   well for so long because it just was an amazing balance

01:27:54   of pro quality performance, like pro performance levels,

01:27:58   even before the iMac Pro itself, really pro performance

01:28:01   levels for many definitions of pro, and ridiculous capacity

01:28:06   for performance and cooling and then all these ports.

01:28:11   It was just a fantastic line of computers

01:28:14   and I hope the next version of the large iMac

01:28:18   doesn't reduce the utility of it

01:28:21   at the expense of coolness.

01:28:23   That being said, the small iMac when it came out

01:28:27   really did make a splash.

01:28:29   As we mentioned when it came out, people were talking

01:28:32   about the design of a desktop in 2021.

01:28:36   That never happens.

01:28:38   No one cares about desktops anymore except pros and nerds

01:28:42   basically, but most people, the vast majority of people

01:28:46   would never consider buying a desktop.

01:28:48   And that computer slightly bent that curve.

01:28:51   I don't expect it to be a permanent thing,

01:28:53   but now for the first time in a long time,

01:28:56   people are going to an Apple store and they see

01:28:57   a really cool ass looking desktop and they think

01:29:00   for a split second, oh my god I have to have that.

01:29:03   That's amazing.

01:29:04   Now, I think most of the energy is going to be redirected

01:29:07   towards the redesigned MacBook Air next spring.

01:29:10   That same energy of whoa, color exists

01:29:13   and it can be fun again.

01:29:14   Like I think that's going to mostly go to the MacBook Air

01:29:16   and that's gonna sell like hotcakes if they do that

01:29:19   to the MacBook Air.

01:29:20   That's gonna be incredible and I hope they do that

01:29:23   as the rumors indicate because that'll be a ridiculously

01:29:26   fun computer that people will just devour.

01:29:30   But anyway, they did succeed in making this desktop

01:29:35   something cool and noteworthy for the first time

01:29:37   in a long time in an era where nobody thought

01:29:39   that was possible.

01:29:41   And so if they do something similar to the iMac Pro,

01:29:45   I wouldn't necessarily blame them for it.

01:29:47   Even though I'm with you John, I think they should

01:29:51   prioritize utility on that machine first

01:29:53   rather than thinness and appearance.

01:29:56   And maybe the direction of the new MacBook Pros

01:29:59   suggests that they're willing to do that

01:30:01   because that's what they do on them.

01:30:03   The new MacBook Pros are not more attractive

01:30:06   than the previous ones.

01:30:08   I think they're differently attractive

01:30:10   but they're not more attractive.

01:30:12   They are way more useful and way better suited

01:30:16   to the actual needs of the actual people who buy them.

01:30:20   And so maybe they'll make that same trade off

01:30:22   with the big iMac.

01:30:23   Maybe the small iMac is fine to be the like

01:30:26   kind of minimal functionality one that prioritizes

01:30:29   the looks and coolness and maybe they'll let the big one

01:30:32   be the utilitarian one for professionals.

01:30:35   So if they do that, I think that would be

01:30:37   a good balance overall.

01:30:38   - If the iMac product designers are listening

01:30:40   and you really, really want to make a super thin

01:30:43   big iMac, you know how you can do that real easy

01:30:46   and no one will yell at you inside or outside the company?

01:30:49   Say it, but do we all know the answer?

01:30:51   Like how do they, I'm not gonna say it myself, you too.

01:30:53   How does Apple do that?

01:30:54   How does Apple say, we really wanna make a thin big iMac

01:30:57   and we don't want people to be mad at us.

01:30:58   What's the solution?

01:30:59   - Can they put the guts of it inside a half basketball

01:31:02   shaped thing and put that somewhere else on the desk

01:31:04   and then have this thin panel.

01:31:06   - No, no.

01:31:07   Casey, you got your chance.

01:31:08   - I have no idea.

01:31:10   I'm sure, call it something that's not an iMac.

01:31:12   I mean, it's still.

01:31:13   - We all know the answer.

01:31:14   - Do we?

01:31:15   - Just make a good external monitor

01:31:17   because then you don't have any excuses.

01:31:18   You got the Mac Pro for the big people, right?

01:31:21   And your problem is like, well, what if I don't want

01:31:24   a Mac Pro?

01:31:25   You're telling me I have to get a Mac Pro

01:31:26   if I want a utilitarian big desktop computer?

01:31:28   No, you've got the Mac Mini, you've got these other things.

01:31:31   Just make a big Apple monitor.

01:31:32   It solves so many problems for you

01:31:34   because then suddenly everybody has more options

01:31:37   and Casey's not hemming and hawing about buying

01:31:39   a used LG ultra-fine monitor.

01:31:41   Oh God, and then you can make a pro version of the Mac Mini

01:31:45   and then the whole world opens up

01:31:46   because I feel like the Mac Pro allows the iMac

01:31:50   to not have to bear that burden anymore

01:31:51   of being the big monster machine.

01:31:52   Great, right?

01:31:54   But if you really, really wanna make it super thin

01:31:56   'cause you think iMac is all about super thin,

01:31:58   fine, go ahead.

01:31:59   All we need is an external monitor from Apple

01:32:02   that connects to all the other computers that Apple makes

01:32:04   and then we can build our systems the way we want.

01:32:07   - No, you're so right.

01:32:08   It's funny, I had lunch outside with a coworker,

01:32:11   my most recent jobby job,

01:32:13   and he was basically the IT director, still is,

01:32:17   and we were talking about, 'cause this was before

01:32:20   I had figured out what I was gonna do

01:32:21   with my monitor situation

01:32:22   'cause this all happened really quickly,

01:32:24   and we were talking about what the monitor situation is

01:32:27   for a MacBook Pro today.

01:32:30   And this is relevant because when I first went digging

01:32:34   to try to find a monitor, a retina external monitor,

01:32:38   three, four years ago, this was like 2017,

01:32:41   so like four years ago, it was with my friend Rory,

01:32:44   and the two of us were trying to figure out

01:32:46   what monitor should I get,

01:32:48   and that's how I ended up on that LG 4K

01:32:49   I talked about recently, which not the LG Ultrafine 4K,

01:32:52   just a straight up LG 4K panel.

01:32:55   And that's what I had used at work

01:32:57   because it was the best bang for the buck

01:32:59   to get a retina screen.

01:33:01   And it was so frustrating over the last week

01:33:05   looking at the monitor situation today in 2021

01:33:08   and realizing it's actually a hair worse

01:33:10   than it was in 2017 because there was a Dell 5K

01:33:13   that was supposed to be very good

01:33:15   and not exceedingly expensive

01:33:17   that has no longer been made

01:33:18   for the last two or three years.

01:33:19   So my choices in 2021 are worse than they were in 2017.

01:33:24   It's preposterous.

01:33:26   So yes, Apple, please make a,

01:33:28   less than $6,000 external monitor, pretty please.

01:33:31   - Yeah, it does feel like Apple is in like, you know,

01:33:34   settling old business mode.

01:33:35   And so I do think we will get this monitor.

01:33:39   - I do too.

01:33:40   - But the only little drips and drabs of rumors

01:33:43   that we heard about it suggested

01:33:45   that they might have only started to work on it

01:33:47   like this spring or last year.

01:33:50   So, and that kind of thing tends

01:33:51   to have a multi-year timeline,

01:33:53   maybe like a two or three year timeline.

01:33:54   So I think the earliest we would get it might be next WBC,

01:33:58   which wouldn't be that bad.

01:33:59   I mean, if it's next June or if that's not that bad,

01:34:02   but I wouldn't expect to see it sooner.

01:34:04   If we do, that'd be great.

01:34:06   But yeah, I wouldn't get my hopes up too much on that.

01:34:08   But yeah, that would be wonderful

01:34:10   because like we've made such an incredible leap

01:34:12   with the Apple Silicon chips

01:34:14   in terms of what kind of performance you can get

01:34:17   out of laptops, you know?

01:34:19   Right now, like I have this incredible workstation

01:34:23   sitting next to me and I don't hear a thing

01:34:26   and it's a laptop.

01:34:28   Like if I would have connected any other laptop I've owned,

01:34:31   with the exception of the M1 Air,

01:34:33   the way I have this laptop connected

01:34:34   as my desktop right now,

01:34:35   clamshell mode, running a giant external monitor,

01:34:39   recording a podcast, running Zoom and audio hijack,

01:34:42   and all that stuff,

01:34:43   there is no way any other laptop I've ever had

01:34:46   would have inaudible fan noise in this configuration.

01:34:51   It would be hot, the fan would be spinning,

01:34:54   that level of heat would eventually, you know,

01:34:56   cause risk of damaging the screen in clamshell mode

01:34:59   or other problems.

01:35:00   They would eventually clog with dust

01:35:01   and it would fill up with even more heat

01:35:03   and even louder fans.

01:35:05   Like, laptop enclosures have not been this good ever

01:35:11   in terms of like, the amount of power delivered

01:35:14   for the amount of heat and noise being produced.

01:35:18   It's never been this good of a ratio.

01:35:21   And so I think the need for many, many people

01:35:25   has already left in terms of desktops, you know,

01:35:27   over the last two decades.

01:35:29   But I think the amount of performance you can get

01:35:33   out of these particular laptops, this family,

01:35:36   the M1 and the M1 Pro Max, is so high,

01:35:39   you get such ridiculous performance

01:35:41   that I think many more people are no longer

01:35:43   going to need a desktop who were using one before.

01:35:46   Or even, you know, need is a weird word.

01:35:49   I think many more people are going to choose

01:35:51   not to have a desktop who were using them up to this point.

01:35:54   Because the laptops are way better,

01:35:56   clamshell mode is way more reliable

01:35:58   and works way better than it did on the Intels.

01:36:00   You know, external monitor support and everything,

01:36:01   it's all, it's so much better.

01:36:03   Now we can have external touch ID

01:36:04   with certain Apple keyboards.

01:36:06   Like, things are getting really great

01:36:08   for using a laptop as your desktop

01:36:10   when you need that.

01:36:12   And then it's also a laptop when you want

01:36:14   to take it somewhere with you.

01:36:15   That's so compelling.

01:36:16   Again, that was already the most popular thing

01:36:17   people were doing, I think.

01:36:19   But now it's even more compelling.

01:36:22   And so anything that can make that even better for people,

01:36:25   and number one problem is the monitor situation.

01:36:28   That is the number one problem.

01:36:30   Like, if Apple could make that better,

01:36:33   that changes things for so many pros and power users.

01:36:38   So many of us use laptops in a desktop context,

01:36:42   either on a stand or in clamshell mode

01:36:44   with external monitors.

01:36:46   And if they can fix that, which again,

01:36:48   I think they are, I have, I don't know anything more

01:36:52   than what anybody else knows.

01:36:53   I just have a hunch that this is the kind of problem

01:36:56   they would eventually fix in this major course correction

01:37:00   that we're seeing them go through.

01:37:02   That would so radically change things

01:37:05   that the need for the high-end iMac

01:37:09   to be much more powerful than,

01:37:13   to be any more powerful than the high-end MacBook Pro,

01:37:16   I think that need just disappears.

01:37:18   - 'Cause then it would be taking advantage

01:37:19   of its all-in-oneness.

01:37:20   Like, it would be the same design brief

01:37:21   as the 24-inch, it would just be bigger.

01:37:23   It's like, oh, it's great, it's all-in-one, it's minimal.

01:37:25   And if you want more flexibility,

01:37:27   if Apple makes a monitor, first of all,

01:37:29   if you look at the last monitor they made,

01:37:31   they were already going down this path,

01:37:32   which was, we want to make a monitor

01:37:34   that allows people to make essentially a desktop system

01:37:38   out of either a non-desktop computer

01:37:40   or a different desktop computer,

01:37:41   whether it's a Mac Mini or a laptop.

01:37:43   Remember the big rat tail that would come out?

01:37:45   It had a MagSafe power adapter

01:37:47   and it had a bunch of other things.

01:37:48   That was to basically say, oh, you have, quote-unquote,

01:37:50   "One cable," ha-ha, it's a giant rat tail, but yeah,

01:37:53   "One cable that connects to your laptop,

01:37:54   "and it charges it, and it connects it to this monitor,

01:37:56   "and the monitor has ports on it."

01:37:58   Well, guess what?

01:37:58   We've had that technology for a long time.

01:38:00   Apple has just not taken advantage of it.

01:38:02   We now have the ability to plug one tiny cable

01:38:05   into a Mac Mini or any Mac laptop

01:38:08   and power all the ports in the back of the monitor,

01:38:12   and now, by the way, the laptops also have

01:38:14   a bunch of ports on them, and the Mac Mini

01:38:15   has a bunch of ports in the back of it, right?

01:38:17   That's why we say this thing gives you the flexibility.

01:38:19   Suddenly the iMac can be this svelte, very thin,

01:38:21   all-in-one, very elegant, no cables, no connections thing,

01:38:24   and fulfill that role without sacrificing the utility,

01:38:28   because if you've got an Apple monitor,

01:38:29   you can connect any of Apple laptops

01:38:31   or the Mac Mini to that and have an amazing desktop setup,

01:38:35   and still, Mac Pro handles the super-duper high-end.

01:38:38   Setting aside now the half-size Mac Pro,

01:38:40   whether that's the only Mac Pro

01:38:41   or there's a half-size and a big one,

01:38:43   the Mac Pro's got the high-end covered.

01:38:45   The iMac, if you want it to be super thin and 30 inches,

01:38:48   fine, just give us a monitor so we can turn

01:38:52   your other computers into a really awesome desktop setup,

01:38:55   and the Mac Mini, it is a desktop computer.

01:38:57   It's begging for a good monitor to connect to it.

01:38:59   It's begging to have an M1 Pro and M1 Max,

01:39:01   and it probably is well.

01:39:02   So that's the lineup for 2023,

01:39:06   just an Apple monitor, a cheap Apple,

01:39:09   quote-unquote cheap Apple monitor for 1500 bucks

01:39:11   that's 5K or 6K or something, HDR, mini-LED,

01:39:15   like all the great things with Face ID built in,

01:39:17   with a Thunderbolt cable coming out of it

01:39:19   that you can connect to any of Apple's awesome laptops

01:39:21   or any of its awesome Mac Minis.

01:39:23   - That's not 1500 bucks, by the way.

01:39:25   (laughs)

01:39:26   My current thinking is if they do release a 5K, 27-inch,

01:39:31   they would probably call it XDR,

01:39:32   it would probably have micro-LED and stuff.

01:39:34   - 1799?

01:39:35   - 2000 minimum, possibly 2500.

01:39:38   - Ugh, well, I'd still buy it, but I feel like, same.

01:39:43   - No, look, that's modern Apple.

01:39:45   Modern Apple is, we will eventually give you what you want,

01:39:48   but it's gonna cost 40% more than you thought it would.

01:39:50   - The laptops weren't any more expensive.

01:39:52   Like I said, they passed the savings on D-wheel's laptops.

01:39:54   You got amazing laptops for similar prices,

01:39:57   or in some cases, less, much less if you benchmark them

01:40:00   against the previous computers that cost that amount of money

01:40:03   - Yeah, that's true.

01:40:04   No, but if Apple does make an extra monitor,

01:40:06   it's going to be expensive.

01:40:07   Like, you know, let me look at the XDR,

01:40:10   the $6,000 XDR, they only released that

01:40:13   a pretty short time ago, and it doesn't have

01:40:15   some of these features you're talking about,

01:40:17   and it's not that much bigger than those.

01:40:19   - Yeah, but it's 6K.

01:40:20   We'll go, we're fine with 5K, right?

01:40:23   No one's begging for 6K.

01:40:24   - Sure, but I think a 5K Apple monitor released today

01:40:28   by today's Apple would be minimum $2,000

01:40:32   and possibly even $2,500.

01:40:34   - Ugh, my brain knows you're right,

01:40:38   but my heart is so sad about this, just listening to you.

01:40:42   - I'm still holding out hope for $1,799,

01:40:44   but you're right, it's probably $1,999.

01:40:46   - Yep.

01:40:47   - And by the way, if they do that, I think that's fine.

01:40:51   'Cause that is kind of like the deal

01:40:53   between pros and Apple.

01:40:55   We bug them about what we actually need.

01:40:58   They eventually make it, and it's always more expensive

01:41:02   than we want it to be, and we suck it up and pay it.

01:41:05   'Cause that's just the relationship between pros and Apple.

01:41:09   It's been that way for a long time.

01:41:10   It's going more and more in that direction.

01:41:12   And look at the Mac Pro.

01:41:14   Everyone wanted an expandable desktop tower,

01:41:17   and they finally said, okay, we'll give you

01:41:20   an expandable desktop tower.

01:41:21   It'll be 15 grand, but we'll give it to you.

01:41:24   We'll give you this external monitor.

01:41:26   You want a nice external monitor to go with it?

01:41:28   Great, $6,000.

01:41:29   So whenever this monitor does come out,

01:41:32   if they are doing a 5K, 27 inch,

01:41:35   it's not gonna be under two grand.

01:41:37   I would love it if it was,

01:41:39   but I think that's unrealistic to expect.

01:41:41   - $2,000 for a 5K monitor makes me kind of sick.

01:41:44   But $2,000 for a 5K monitor with 11 gazillion mini-LED zones

01:41:49   just like the Mac Pro screen has,

01:41:51   and HDR and all this other fanciness.

01:41:55   If it has, if it's a 27 inch sized version

01:41:59   of this MacBook Pro monitor,

01:42:01   $2,000 may not be so unreasonable.

01:42:04   If it's just the LG 5K repackaged in an Apple package,

01:42:08   yeah, that's a waste of money.

01:42:09   But if it's nice, like super nice,

01:42:12   if it's not just ultra fine, if it's ultra nice,

01:42:14   then yeah, I can get behind that.

01:42:16   - I was looking at pricing for,

01:42:18   I'm always looking at replacing my PlayStation monitor

01:42:21   with another monitor.

01:42:22   My PlayStation monitor is a 4K monitor,

01:42:24   and but it's not 120 Hertz, right?

01:42:26   And PlayStation 5 can do 120 Hertz in some games now,

01:42:29   including Destiny.

01:42:30   And so I wanna see that, right?

01:42:32   So I'm always looking for,

01:42:33   I should replace this 4K monitor, it's an LG 4K.

01:42:35   I should replace it with a better 4K,

01:42:37   same resolution, 4K, that's what the PlayStation outputs.

01:42:40   But I want HDR and I want it to be an IPS

01:42:43   because I don't really care about response time.

01:42:44   I just want it to look really good

01:42:45   and have good viewing angles, right?

01:42:47   So I keep looking for, okay, I want,

01:42:49   it's not, I'm not looking in the world of Mac monitors,

01:42:52   just a plain old 4K monitor, HDR with good brightness.

01:42:57   I don't even care if it's mini LED.

01:42:59   Like I just want, I just want it to have, you know,

01:43:00   high peak brightness so I can actually see the HDR effects

01:43:03   like I can on my XDR and 120 Hertz.

01:43:06   And if you put those specs into like a search

01:43:09   all available monitors, you will find some,

01:43:11   like I'm looking at a 32 inch 4K HDR,

01:43:14   1600 nits, 1,152 mini LED zones, 120 Hertz, right?

01:43:21   That's a $3,000 monitor.

01:43:23   - Yep.

01:43:24   - Right, I mean, and it's because like,

01:43:26   this is an Asus monitor that I'm looking at.

01:43:28   I think it's $3,000.

01:43:29   - It's pronounced as (beep)

01:43:30   - It's always there top of the line,

01:43:32   like for like artists, super calibrated.

01:43:35   It's not a gaming monitor because no one who wants

01:43:37   a gaming monitor cares about this stuff.

01:43:39   They all care about like, oh, one millisecond response time,

01:43:42   like 300 nits max brightness.

01:43:44   I'm like, get that crap out of here.

01:43:46   I'm not a pro gamer.

01:43:47   I want things to look pretty.

01:43:48   And then, so I end up, you know, in this thing.

01:43:50   So yeah, it's not looking good for the mythical $1,800

01:43:55   5K monitor if it had HDR of any kind, which is kind of sad.

01:43:59   But I, you know, and so I did this look and I'm like,

01:44:01   okay, it's not time for me to replace my PlayStation monitor.

01:44:03   I'll check again next year.

01:44:04   - I mean, the only thing that would support, you know,

01:44:08   it being somewhat reasonable to be in that price range is

01:44:12   if they don't go super, you know, HDR, XDR with it,

01:44:15   because they've been selling the 27 inch 5K iMac

01:44:19   for what, six years now, something like that,

01:44:23   longer, maybe seven or eight years

01:44:25   that that computer has existed.

01:44:28   It wasn't 2014, the first one.

01:44:30   So yes, so they've been selling that panel

01:44:32   that's in Casey's totally fine monitor for a long time.

01:44:36   - Ultra fine, Marco, ultra.

01:44:38   - And they've been selling it in a computer

01:44:40   that starts at like 2,000 or 2,200 bucks.

01:44:42   So I think they could easily justify

01:44:47   if they were still selling a monitor with that kind of spec,

01:44:51   they could easily get that in like the $1,800 range.

01:44:54   But I don't think that's their style anymore.

01:44:57   Like I think what they're going to do is

01:45:00   the next high-end iMac is going to have the nice,

01:45:02   you know, XDR style thing that the current MacBook Pros have.

01:45:07   And so, and that's gonna probably be a, you know,

01:45:10   $2,700 starting price for that iMac.

01:45:14   And therefore, I think a monitor

01:45:15   that would be around 2,000 starting at minimum.

01:45:18   Because it's no longer Apple's style

01:45:20   to try to make low-end products in areas like this

01:45:23   that are kind of accessory areas to their main products.

01:45:25   This kind of thing that's like a kind of higher-end,

01:45:28   kind of Pro style, mostly accessory,

01:45:31   they're gonna only make the high-end ones.

01:45:34   And they're gonna price them at very healthy margins.

01:45:38   And that's why, you know, that's why we have

01:45:40   their current only external monitor

01:45:42   being this ridiculous $6,000 beast.

01:45:46   I think they're going to aim similarly high

01:45:49   with their smaller one.

01:45:51   And as the market tells them,

01:45:53   "Please make a $1,200 monitor,"

01:45:55   they're gonna make a $2,000 monitor.

01:45:57   And we're gonna buy it anyway

01:45:59   because it's gonna be the best option for a lot of us.

01:46:01   - Yup. - Correction on those

01:46:02   Asus monitors, sorry, the one I was looking at is $5,000.

01:46:06   - Oh, what a bargain.

01:46:07   I put a link in the show notes if anyone wants to see it.

01:46:10   This is a 4K monitor, great.

01:46:11   This is not a 6K monitor, this is a 4K, 32 inch,

01:46:15   16 by nine HDR Mini-LED 120 hertz monitor.

01:46:19   - Oh yeah.

01:46:20   - Thanks to our sponsors this week,

01:46:22   Lutron, Caseta, Connexion, and Revenue Cat.

01:46:25   And thanks to our members who support us directly.

01:46:28   You can go to ATP.FM/JOIN to help fund KC's XDR monitor.

01:46:33   And we will talk to you. - Yeah, right.

01:46:35   - We will talk to you next week.

01:46:37   (upbeat music)

01:46:39   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

01:46:42   ♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

01:46:44   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:46:46   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:46:47   ♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪

01:46:49   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:46:50   ♪ John didn't do any research ♪

01:46:52   ♪ Marco and KC wouldn't let him ♪

01:46:55   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:46:56   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:46:57   ♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪

01:46:59   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:47:00   ♪ And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM ♪

01:47:05   ♪ And if you're into Twitter ♪

01:47:08   ♪ You can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S ♪

01:47:13   ♪ So that's Casey Liss ♪

01:47:16   ♪ M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M ♪

01:47:19   ♪ Auntie Marco Arment ♪

01:47:21   ♪ S-I-R-A-C ♪

01:47:24   ♪ USA, Syracuse ♪

01:47:26   ♪ It's accidental ♪

01:47:28   ♪ It's accidental ♪

01:47:30   ♪ They didn't mean to accidental ♪

01:47:33   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:47:35   ♪ Tech podcast so long ♪

01:47:38   - So we'll do a little bit of Ask ATP

01:47:42   'cause it is piling up and we keep running out of time

01:47:44   to do it and that's our bad.

01:47:46   But we figure we'll plow through one or two of these

01:47:48   depending on how brief we can be,

01:47:50   famous last words with the three of us.

01:47:51   - Oh, come on, it's Apple's fault, it's not our fault.

01:47:53   They released amazing computers that we talk about a lot.

01:47:56   That's their fault, that's on them.

01:47:57   - We're just so happy.

01:47:59   All right, Yossi Connor writes,

01:48:00   "Why is it we no longer talk about processor speed

01:48:03   "in regard to the M1 at least

01:48:04   "in terms of gigahertz and instead only talk

01:48:06   "about the number of cores?"

01:48:07   What's up with that, Jon?

01:48:08   - There's an easy answer to that one.

01:48:09   Apple doesn't sell them based on different clock speeds.

01:48:12   You can't choose the clock speed.

01:48:14   So there's no real reason for us to discuss it.

01:48:16   If they did offer different clock speeds,

01:48:18   you can be sure we were discussing it.

01:48:19   We'd be saying, oh, you got 16 inch,

01:48:21   what CPU did you get, what speed did you get?

01:48:24   But that's not an option that Apple offers.

01:48:26   That's the main reason.

01:48:27   The second reason is it's not like it was in the old days

01:48:30   where the processor ran at a certain speed

01:48:32   and they could put that speed on a spec sheet.

01:48:34   These processors changed their clock speed all the time.

01:48:37   Not only did they change their clock speed,

01:48:38   the parts inside the system on a chip run

01:48:41   at different speeds at the same time

01:48:43   when the chip is working.

01:48:44   So it's not even like you put one number on it

01:48:46   and say this chip is running at 3.2 gigahertz.

01:48:48   Really?

01:48:49   Every part of the chip is running at three,

01:48:50   well, not really.

01:48:51   It's way more complicated.

01:48:52   And so it's A, very difficult to talk about.

01:48:56   Obviously, lots of people still sell chips this way

01:48:58   'cause they're basically saying here's the fastest

01:49:00   it can run or here's the fastest it can run

01:49:02   in a sustained thing or whatever.

01:49:04   But B, they're just not sold that way.

01:49:06   So that's the answer.

01:49:07   It's not worth talking about

01:49:09   because there's nothing we can do about it.

01:49:11   - Good talk.

01:49:12   That was quick.

01:49:12   I'm stunned.

01:49:13   That was very quick.

01:49:14   - I mean, the reason I wanted this question to be in there

01:49:16   is it's a good question.

01:49:17   We used to talk about gigahertz all the time,

01:49:18   but it's like if it's not something that we as consumers

01:49:22   have to choose among, especially when looking at pro hardware

01:49:25   like do we have to, I have to like talk about the clock speed

01:49:27   do I want the more clock speed?

01:49:28   Is that gonna burn more of my battery?

01:49:29   That's just not a choice we have anymore.

01:49:31   So it's not worth discussing.

01:49:32   But the second part, the technical part

01:49:33   is the thing that people might not realize

01:49:35   is that there's not really one number

01:49:37   you can put on modern chips.

01:49:39   And so it's not even a useful thing

01:49:41   to talk about anymore really.

01:49:42   - All right, and then this one I really like

01:49:46   and wanted to talk about and Marco did as well.

01:49:48   And it is a failed question in the get-go at least for John

01:49:52   because John does not believe in hypotheticals,

01:49:54   but I do and I think this is fun.

01:49:55   - It's a fun one.

01:49:56   This is a fun question.

01:49:57   - Joel Short writes, if you had to choose,

01:50:00   would you rather use the previous generation

01:50:02   MacBook Pro bodies, all USB-Cs with an M1 Max chip

01:50:06   or the new generation MacBook Pro with all the ports

01:50:09   and an Intel chip?

01:50:11   For me, this is unquestionably,

01:50:14   don't even have to think twice,

01:50:16   the old body with an M1 Max every day of the week

01:50:19   and twice on Sunday.

01:50:20   Because I've already converted my life to USB-C

01:50:22   and dongles if I need them.

01:50:24   So I'll take the processor hands down.

01:50:26   What about you Marco?

01:50:28   - See, to me this is interesting

01:50:29   because the question is a little bit vague.

01:50:31   So it's a fun question,

01:50:33   but the previous generation MacBook Pro body

01:50:36   with the M1 Max chip, well, which MacBook Pro?

01:50:39   Is it the 13 inch with no touch bar and only two ports?

01:50:44   - Oh, here we go, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:50:46   - Is it a 16 inch with the touch bar?

01:50:49   And then does it have the butterfly keyboard

01:50:53   or does it have the magic keyboard?

01:50:55   Like how far back, the previous generation

01:50:57   started with the butterfly keyboard.

01:50:58   So like if you're-- - I don't think any

01:50:59   of these things are gonna change your answer though.

01:51:01   - Oh no, so if it is the immediately preceding,

01:51:06   you know, the 2019 or 2020 models

01:51:09   that had the fixed keyboard,

01:51:11   like the actual good magic keyboard,

01:51:14   I would choose the older body with the new M1 Max chip.

01:51:18   Because even though I love all the new ports

01:51:21   and everything that we have on the new ones,

01:51:23   the M1 series of chips and the performance they give

01:51:27   and the thermal and battery characteristics they give

01:51:30   are more substantial to me in my own personal utility

01:51:34   for these machines, even though I would have to tolerate

01:51:37   the touch bar probably with that choice.

01:51:40   But no question for me, except if the question becomes

01:51:45   the butterfly keyboard, I would rather use a good keyboard

01:51:51   with a 486 in it than a butterfly keyboard with an M1 Max.

01:51:55   - But you would still pick the M1, you know why?

01:51:57   Because you're not even touching your keyboard.

01:51:58   Your laptop is folded up like a book

01:52:00   and sitting next to your computer.

01:52:01   Like you'd still buy it with the butterfly keyboard

01:52:04   and you'd slam that thing shut

01:52:05   and shove it into your little bookshelf thing

01:52:08   and never look at it again,

01:52:09   because you're basically using it as your desktop laptop

01:52:11   and it would have the M1 Max in it.

01:52:13   - Yeah, I guess I was thinking about it

01:52:15   in the desktop context.

01:52:16   I was thinking about it as actually using it as a laptop.

01:52:18   - Who uses laptops?

01:52:19   Laptops stink.

01:52:20   (laughing)

01:52:22   - You know, did I not just talk about how much fun I had

01:52:25   with the mechanical gardens earlier today?

01:52:26   Come now.

01:52:27   - Yeah, but I'm pretty sure he didn't mean

01:52:29   the butterfly keyboard.

01:52:30   Like, who would do such a thing?

01:52:33   Yeah, that's just cruel.

01:52:34   Nobody deserves that.

01:52:35   And that's not the previous generation.

01:52:37   That's the previous previous generation.

01:52:39   Like they did fix the keyboards before they went to M1.

01:52:41   Yeah.

01:52:42   - Agreed.

01:52:43   All right, so John, tell me why this question is utter trash

01:52:45   and then do your best answer.

01:52:46   - No, it's fine.

01:52:47   It's fine.

01:52:48   I mean, it's a hypothetical making you choose

01:52:50   between two things that are both bad,

01:52:51   but which one is less bad?

01:52:52   Yeah, but the answer is you get the M1.

01:52:54   Like, 'cause yes, the ports and everything were bad

01:52:57   and even the butterfly keyboard is better,

01:52:59   I think, but just the M1 is just so much better.

01:53:01   And the M1 makes the old design less crappy

01:53:05   'cause one of the things that was crappy about the old thing

01:53:07   was the fans would run all the time

01:53:09   and they'd run super hot and they were super noisy

01:53:10   and the M1 fixes all of that, right?

01:53:13   So yeah, I would, yeah.

01:53:15   The M1 in the old design is the less bad,

01:53:18   the significantly less bad choice

01:53:20   than Intel in the current design.

01:53:22   (beeping)