00:00:00 ◼ ► Is that is I don't feel like that is should be capitalized pretty sure it should be a good thing. I have a website to find out
00:00:06 ◼ ► I was so I was so happy that you saved my topic that I was so excited to talk about by doing a good summary of
00:00:20 ◼ ► You know what? I mean and and I was so in love with you in a fraternal way now. I hate you again
00:00:26 ◼ ► It's supposed to be capitalized damage on you ever wrong if you'd believe the internet you are never wrong
00:00:35 ◼ ► September is childhood cancer Awareness Month and our friends at relay, which is also us
00:00:57 ◼ ► their work also has been shared or the results of their research have been shared the world over and have done a phenomenal job of
00:01:05 ◼ ► Decreasing the mortality rate from childhood cancer. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but a lot
00:01:12 ◼ ► Every September relay, even though we this particular show is not officially part of relay
00:01:22 ◼ ► And so we join relay and since we all have relay shows we join relay in in trying to raise money for
00:01:32 ◼ ► This is the time of year that I will be belligerent and accost you even more than I do for t-shirts
00:01:46 ◼ ► Jude Children's Research Hospital to help cure childhood cancer. What else would you do with that dollar?
00:01:51 ◼ ► We can buy diet coke. It's delicious, but it doesn't help cure cancer and some of our you probably takes cancer
00:01:56 ◼ ► So I would even argue whether it's delicious. I mean, let's be honest here. Well that alone is also arguable
00:02:07 ◼ ► St. J ude org slash relay ATP will probably be making some sort of joint donation at some point
00:02:14 ◼ ► We actually haven't had a chance to talk about it yet. That's on the to-do list for after this very show. So
00:02:22 ◼ ► St. Jude org slash relay, please send a little bit of money. I've been taught I don't want to really I don't want to guarantee anything
00:02:40 ◼ ► Anyway, Stephen and I have been talking and I might be getting involved with a little special treat reward. Maybe maybe don't guarantee anything
00:02:56 ◼ ► I mean that now, of course, no amount is too much either. But hey, no amount is too little st
00:03:06 ◼ ► treatments invented to say judith helped push the overall childhood cancer survival rate from 20% to more than 80% since opening and
00:03:13 ◼ ► With one in five children not surviving st. Jude won't stop until no child dies from cancer
00:03:28 ◼ ► It's probably st. Jude org slash relay FM and so I tried it and it worked but apparently slash relay also works
00:03:34 ◼ ► So SDU de dot org slash relay with or without the FM. It's just a redirect that goes to the place where you can donate
00:03:42 ◼ ► The more the better and and I've honestly like the podcasting on is to coming, you know
00:03:47 ◼ ► They do like what is a 24-hour thing or whatever where they raise money and it's a big deal
00:03:51 ◼ ► I do all sorts of cool activities which remain right not involve Casey which may or may not involve me because honestly
00:03:57 ◼ ► I think I somehow I got sucked into it, but I always feel like when we do the pitch on here like, you know
00:04:07 ◼ ► We really need to represent for ATP to show we want to see the ATP bump, you know what I mean last year
00:04:18 ◼ ► Indirectly helped us see how amazing ATP listeners are and how generous they are and I really want to see like the ATP bump
00:04:31 ◼ ► But please give as much as you can represent for ATP. It's a great cause. Yep. Yes, please
00:04:36 ◼ ► And right now as we record thirty seven thousand one hundred twenty four dollars and thirty three cents
00:04:43 ◼ ► It's early the month, but we all of us can do a lot better than that and I agree with John
00:04:47 ◼ ► Let's be jerks about it. Let's just claim as much money as possible for ATP. Let's do it
00:04:57 ◼ ► But we are not part of relay and so I kind of feel like this little wonderful little rivalry that could happen here
00:05:06 ◼ ► But like if it's a rivalry where like we're just raising more and more money for a really good cause
00:05:10 ◼ ► Like there's kind of no downside to that right? I think there's nothing negative about that
00:05:19 ◼ ► Throw a massive amount of ATP inspired fuel on this fire because this is a really good cause and we will keep talking about it
00:05:30 ◼ ► Because this is a great time to do this and as Apple releases all of their good stuff probably over the next month
00:05:36 ◼ ► And we all dump a massive quantity of money on new, you know, little shiny gadgets that we don't probably necessarily need
00:05:47 ◼ ► We can also think about how we can allocate some some of our money in better ways. Yep, so you'll hear about it some more
00:06:02 ◼ ► Batch of ATP stickers which really are not that impressive. But I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean they're incredibly cool
00:06:08 ◼ ► The best stickers I've ever seen what you mean is they're exclusive sold out limited edition not available anywhere except this way
00:06:18 ◼ ► Multithousand-dollar set of ATP stickers. I strongly encourage it. Please do you will be deeply disappointed and yet also very proud
00:06:28 ◼ ► I mean you talk about you know, spending a lot of money for not a significant object, right?
00:06:37 ◼ ► Yeah, and we know the sort of the provenance of like this is legit sticker from actual Casey not just like oh someone printed something
00:06:44 ◼ ► That looks like an ATP sticker and gave it to you. This will be the real thing. So it actually has collector's value, right?
00:06:50 ◼ ► Yeah, there's no yes, please st. Jude org slash relay if you please moving along to follow up
00:07:00 ◼ ► Apparently John you said and I am quoting from the show notes and apparently this is from hyper critical episode 31
00:07:06 ◼ ► And this was released on August 24th of 2011 put it on your calendar from 10 years from now is Microsoft making PC hardware
00:07:18 ◼ ► I mean this so this episode I had to go back and listen to to remind myself what this was about
00:07:22 ◼ ► First of all, this is an episode where Dan couldn't make it to Ryan Ireland was the guest host
00:07:27 ◼ ► And then I remembered that we had a guest spot and we were talking about HP leaving the PC business
00:07:36 ◼ ► they used to make personal computers that ran Windows and they were leaving the PC business and
00:07:48 ◼ ► Because if the only PC makers that can survive are the ones that essentially cater to business by selling the cheapest possible PCs
00:07:59 ◼ ► In terms of quality or cache or innovation or anything like that because their entire business would be around, you know
00:08:21 ◼ ► Possibility came up but like what if Microsoft starts making its own personal computers because it seems like like, you know
00:08:26 ◼ ► In the free market of the Windows world seemed like no one was willing to make nice computers
00:08:31 ◼ ► I think it was also Lenovo. I don't know if they were leaving or they just been sold or something like that
00:08:38 ◼ ► Microsoft can just do it itself and then at least one company able to make making nice PCs, but of course Microsoft making PCs
00:08:47 ◼ ► Doesn't make other PC makers feel really good because now Microsoft is competing with the companies
00:08:58 ◼ ► it's it's back a little bit farther as you can hear a little bit more of the conversation or you can just rewind a few
00:09:02 ◼ ► Yeah, that was the prediction. Let's look at this 10 years from now and to see if Microsoft's making PC hardware
00:09:18 ◼ ► But yeah, Microsoft makes PCs and it's kind of exactly like we discussed ten years ago and that they don't make PCs that
00:09:44 ◼ ► But it's also very elegant and nice and I'm using their mouse right here on my Mac and I think it fits in well
00:09:52 ◼ ► yeah, this seems to me that the main reason they're doing it is because they want to make really nice PCs and show off what
00:10:06 ◼ ► But what really happens they just ate each other and each other and each other in trouble
00:10:09 ◼ ► There's just one or two big companies left that sell to businesses and no one was really
00:10:13 ◼ ► Except for in the gaming world, perhaps we have those really ugly gaming PCs. Nobody was making a an apple like computer
00:10:20 ◼ ► So now Microsoft does yeah turns out yeah, and this email came in on the exact day of the deck ten year anniversary
00:10:27 ◼ ► It doesn't have anything to do with what we're gonna discuss but August 24th was yesterday
00:10:30 ◼ ► All right moving right along. I owe a formal apology to Colin Donnell. I had attributed and credited
00:10:43 ◼ ► Which was how Gruber I thought described Mac apps that are really are good platform citizens
00:10:49 ◼ ► I really care about being you know, something that feels at home at them at on the Mac and Colin Donnell pointed out to me
00:10:57 ◼ ► It's as though nobody remembered where follow-up came from like how frickin frustrating would that be if nobody knew
00:11:08 ◼ ► I think you were to you were two people off though because it was a Brent Simmons blog post and Brent Simmons says I stole this
00:11:18 ◼ ► Gruber then took it from singing on Brent's post and probably talked about in the various lacks that were in
00:11:23 ◼ ► Yeah, so we were two degrees off there. Sorry. Sorry Colin. This is your phrase duly credited
00:11:28 ◼ ► Alright moving right along a very funny name on Twitter King Oleg one made and actually
00:11:35 ◼ ► What appears to me to be a reasonable observation? I'm curious to hear what you guys have to say about this
00:11:43 ◼ ► This is with regard to one password and it going to electron which again is based on web technology
00:11:48 ◼ ► One important thing to add is the risk of dependency injection via the JavaScript package ecosystem, which is a total mess
00:11:55 ◼ ► I for one would never trust an electron app with sensitive information no matter the company behind it
00:12:00 ◼ ► You know, for example crypto wallets that did the same and whose users were hacked this way
00:12:12 ◼ ► You will pull in code from other places because it will do things that you don't want to have to write yourself and oftentimes
00:12:17 ◼ ► It will do them more efficiently and it will be better tested and battle proven etc, etc, etc
00:12:21 ◼ ► So you might pull in you know a library that that lets you store data in a certain way just for the sake of discussion
00:12:27 ◼ ► Well, if you're not inspecting that code that you're pulling in it could do nefarious things
00:12:36 ◼ ► so it is certainly possible that if one password is written using electron and if some of the
00:12:46 ◼ ► If some of that code wants to do a nefarious thing unless they are extremely diligent about their third-party dependencies that could happen
00:12:57 ◼ ► And yeah, we've talked about this before where people who don't know node and they're just like oh you're just saying it uses libraries
00:13:02 ◼ ► Every language uses libraries. What's the big deal with node? Well the way the JavaScript slash node.js ecosystem has evolved
00:13:21 ◼ ► you know an iPhone app and you include like one third-party library to do a thing for you a typical node app includes
00:13:29 ◼ ► Literally hundreds or thousands of third-party libraries, right and that's not an exaggeration. That's not like oh, this is an extreme case
00:13:37 ◼ ► If you just do create react react app and make a react application in node and count the dependencies. You're already underwater
00:13:43 ◼ ► There's a huge number of them and the way it's usually done was sort of continuous integration and cloud deployment for server-side stuff
00:13:49 ◼ ► Anyway, is that they a lot of them get pulled from the third-party repositories that are on the web
00:13:54 ◼ ► And so you're pulling library a which uses library B, which is library C through library D and so on
00:14:02 ◼ ► As if any one of those dependencies gets updated they often require new versions of other dependencies in many ways
00:14:09 ◼ ► It's a a lively ecosystem rich with new and updated apps and bug fixes and yes, it's it's very active, right?
00:14:21 ◼ ► We're just gonna use these libraries and we're never gonna change them again is difficult to do because people find security
00:14:33 ◼ ► Every single day one of those dependencies gets a bug fix or security fix. Sometimes those are important
00:14:40 ◼ ► And in fact the main package manager for node has built into it an audit feature that lets you know all the security
00:14:46 ◼ ► Problems that your current dependency stack has and how to fix them all that other stuff
00:14:52 ◼ ► A module is updated if a library is updated pull the new version because it probably has important fixes and that's how the sneaky
00:14:58 ◼ ► You know security stuff gets in someone will use a library that returns a boolean value indicating whether or not a number is odd
00:15:15 ◼ ► Application or tries to steal keystrokes and send them to a website or something like that and no one will notice because who no human
00:15:20 ◼ ► Is going to manually audit, you know hundreds or thousands of dependencies every time one changes. It's just human nature. It's too much stuff
00:15:37 ◼ ► Although there is concern like this third party, even if you're using one library. It's a third party like
00:15:41 ◼ ► Analytics tracker those are kind of creepy too. But anyway, that's why people are concerned about node specifically indeed
00:15:47 ◼ ► And then Rustam Karimov who is one of the co-founders one password and also developer had a tweet in which you know
00:15:55 ◼ ► He writes what the one password code repository has more Swift than typescript typescript being you know
00:16:00 ◼ ► Not a front end but a different way of writing JavaScript. It is not your off-the-shelf electron node.js or web app
00:16:12 ◼ ► We should actually talk about that in a second launch services touch ID keyboard shortcuts system sleep/wake, etc
00:16:17 ◼ ► I think the numbers show how we built one password 8 do as much as possible in the common core
00:16:21 ◼ ► Which they're very excited to tell you is built on Rust and then you Swift for Mac OS specifics and typescript for the front end
00:16:27 ◼ ► Yeah, so I mean it does show that like, you know, if the majority of their code is in JavaScript
00:16:35 ◼ ► JavaScript and they didn't didn't really answer the question of how they handle dependencies because it's a difficult problem
00:16:40 ◼ ► Like there's no easy solution to like oh everyone just knows you should just pin all your dependencies and just never change them
00:16:46 ◼ ► like wait a week and you'll find out one of your dependencies has an incredible security flaw that you need to fix and now you
00:16:54 ◼ ► Do what NPM tells you to do and update all your things and then you can do her get diff to see what's changed
00:17:00 ◼ ► And just your eyes will glaze over and eventually you'll get sick of looking at it and you won't find a Bitcoin miner
00:17:04 ◼ ► You know people make fun of me for never wanting to use third-party libraries in my apps
00:17:09 ◼ ► Like I almost never bring in third-party code almost never like unless it's something that I really can't do myself
00:17:16 ◼ ► And it's very complicated and that I can easily look at and audit like, you know two files like, you know
00:17:21 ◼ ► Something really simple and yes, I know it's possible to sneak weird stuff in but like, you know
00:17:30 ◼ ► You know for the most part I do everything myself and this is a blessing and a curse, you know
00:17:40 ◼ ► basically reinvent the wheel all the time and that has pluses and minuses, you know, the pluses are that I
00:17:46 ◼ ► Know everything about my code. I know everything it's doing and everything. It's not doing I know how it works
00:17:55 ◼ ► Functionality or change or something behaves or figure out why something isn't behaving. I know it all because it's all code
00:18:02 ◼ ► Whereas that's not true when you bring in other people's libraries that being said I definitely therefore move more slowly
00:18:13 ◼ ► But it's a much slower road to get there and I certainly avoid a whole host of these problems that you guys been talking about
00:18:24 ◼ ► Fix bugs that other people have already fixed, you know handle edge cases that other people have already handled and stuff like that
00:18:33 ◼ ► I mean you're here still especially on the Apple platforms. You're building on top of the OS which is not third-party
00:18:39 ◼ ► It's first party, but that's the majority of the code in your application is Apple's code, right?
00:18:45 ◼ ► Setting even aside the operating system just whatever UI framework and everything. That's where all the code is
00:18:50 ◼ ► That's where all the lines of code in our own all of our applications the whole point of
00:18:53 ◼ ► Cocoa and all the other things is like oh you get to write at this level where we've already written all the libraries for you
00:18:58 ◼ ► Do yourself and you just tell us button goes here window goes there when they click this happens
00:19:01 ◼ ► then the whole machinery of the UI runs under there and then underneath there is the foundation services and then the core OS services and
00:19:12 ◼ ► Random internet script kiddies who wrote the is odd and library which by the way has a dependency. Of course it does
00:19:40 ◼ ► Most of them I've not heard of and most of them were not really popular as far as I knew
00:19:44 ◼ ► The one I should have kept better notes on the things that I was told but the one that I do remember hearing a lot
00:19:53 ◼ ► New cool kid note-taking apps if I'm not mistaken or like personal knowledge management, whatever things
00:20:19 ◼ ► Anyway, and I could swear I thought it was a web app when I first used it, but that was a while ago
00:20:31 ◼ ► Memberful allows you as a creator to build sustainable recurring revenue by selling memberships to your audience
00:20:39 ◼ ► This is used by some of the biggest creators on the web. If you ever sign up for somebody's membership program
00:20:43 ◼ ► There's a pretty good chance. It was a member full program and the great thing about memberful
00:20:47 ◼ ► Not only do they give you all the tools you need and they have their incentives aligned with your incentives
00:20:55 ◼ ► So you have full control you have full ownership of your audience your brand your membership and they have everything you need
00:21:07 ◼ ► Apple pay support free trial support if you want to host a private podcast that's gated by membership
00:21:17 ◼ ► You already use if you need any help along the way member full has a world-class support team ready to help you simplify your memberships
00:21:25 ◼ ► Grow your revenue or whatever else your needs might be they are so passionate about helping you succeed
00:21:43 ◼ ► There's a reason why you probably heard of it. You might even be already paying for one because it's just so easy to use
00:21:51 ◼ ► See for yourself with no credit card required with a real free trial get started for free
00:22:03 ◼ ► Slash ATP to get started you again you own and control everything about this payments go directly to your own stripe account
00:22:30 ◼ ► But my very limited understanding and perhaps John you can fill in a little bit here. Is that somehow?
00:22:37 ◼ ► Somebody or a team of somebodies have like extracted the neural hash algorithm from a I guess a pre-release build of iOS
00:22:56 ◼ ► Every one of your pictures will be analyzed and a hash will be generated and if that hash
00:23:03 ◼ ► Matches something that is known as child sexual assault material something like that abuse abuse. Thank you
00:23:11 ◼ ► Anyways, if it matches one of these images they were one of these hashes I should say then that'll cause problems, right?
00:23:18 ◼ ► The people have extracted the algorithm allegedly and have been looking to see if they could make
00:23:24 ◼ ► collisions that are not actually collisions which is to say take two unlike pictures and have the
00:23:30 ◼ ► Algorithm say oh these are the same thing and I guess that's happening and people are figuring out a way to do it and that's
00:23:44 ◼ ► Any hash any hashing algorithm is taking a lot of information and reducing it down to a little bit of information
00:23:49 ◼ ► There's always going to be the possibility of collisions where two different inputs produce the same output
00:23:54 ◼ ► So collisions are inevitable if you are specifically looking to craft collisions with a certain algorithm
00:24:08 ◼ ► Look kind of like random noise as though I so far I think I think all the collisions that they've you know published so far
00:24:15 ◼ ► So it's not you know, it's not like it's a picture of a puppy and somebody looks at and the algorithm says oh, you know
00:24:20 ◼ ► We have better report this to Apple. That's not entirely true, but you continue. I'll clarify in a bit. Okay
00:24:37 ◼ ► So the question is what happens when a collision is found like what happens to an image that matches the hash
00:24:43 ◼ ► And we know that already, you know, what happens is it gets that that you know security voucher thing
00:24:48 ◼ ► That's that's sent to Apple and if they collect enough security vouchers from the same account
00:24:54 ◼ ► Well that would instantly then be obvious to the human who's reviewing this but you know
00:25:01 ◼ ► Deciding whether to forge law enforcement or not. They would see. Oh, this is not see Sam
00:25:10 ◼ ► You know academic exercise. It's an it's interesting to prove, you know the limits of this hash algorithm
00:25:34 ◼ ► Therefore getting them in trouble or getting them possibly in trouble or getting law enforcement possibly to go, you know
00:25:45 ◼ ► There aren't even a lot of ways to get images into other people's photo libraries without their interaction
00:25:53 ◼ ► Not see Sam that you're ingesting into the library as well. That's not really going to do anything in the long run
00:26:21 ◼ ► so to start with like the reason this out this item has a question mark after it in a little follow-up notes here is
00:26:31 ◼ ► It looked like it was probably the see Sam hashing function from like a released version of iOS
00:26:36 ◼ ► It's not even like a beta one because apparently Apple has been testing this for a while
00:26:39 ◼ ► You just run presumably running it against people's libraries and you know limited fashion or whatever who knows maybe we just wasn't using it
00:26:45 ◼ ► It was dead code. We actually don't know why what it's doing there, but we don't actually know for a fact that
00:26:52 ◼ ► There's that and so people were using this algorithm. Remember the the job of this algorithm is to try to tell
00:26:58 ◼ ► If an image matches one of a fixed set of images that's in this database, you know, the nic Mac database, right?
00:27:08 ◼ ► Why don't you just compare it byte for byte is because it wants to find the image even if it's been modified in some minor
00:27:22 ◼ ► Like that's why the algorithm exists to try to say, you know, here's the fixed set of images
00:27:27 ◼ ► We're looking for looking for this exact image not an image of a dog, but this exact image of this exact dog, right?
00:27:34 ◼ ► But we want to allow for minor variations because we don't want to miss an image just because you know
00:27:42 ◼ ► That's why these algorithms exist and as we said it a couple shows ago the threshold exists because this algorithm is not exact
00:27:59 ◼ ► Yeah, these are the same picture even though that one's been recompressed as a JPEG at lower quality
00:28:06 ◼ ► It's making a best guess and that's why the threshold exists because you don't if the algorithm was 100% accurate
00:28:11 ◼ ► You'd flag on the first one right? You're not letting people have 28 pictures you like it's because it's not exact
00:28:25 ◼ ► Images matching a database you give it an image and it's like a coin flip. It's like well this image of my dog
00:28:32 ◼ ► 50/50 it could this algorithm could think it matches an image in the in the nic mech see Sam database or it could not
00:28:48 ◼ ► An account being flagged so they're basically saying there's a one in a trillion chance
00:28:52 ◼ ► That you that a an account account will be falsely flagged that that you will reach the 30
00:28:58 ◼ ► Photo limit and by the way, I think since last show I think Craig Federighi's basically said it was like 30 photos
00:29:16 ◼ ► Is that one in a trillion and I tried I did a little math to figure out like let's say you have the worst algorithm
00:29:25 ◼ ► How many what would the threshold have to be to get one in a trillion and the answer is 40
00:29:29 ◼ ► Right. So if you had if this algorithm was awful like 50/50 to people would say that's awful like
00:29:37 ◼ ► Why are you even using this hashing algorithm that half the time it gets the answer wrong?
00:29:41 ◼ ► If you have a threshold of 40 the odds of it getting the answer wrong 40 times in a row
00:29:47 ◼ ► Exactly 40 times in a row in sequence, right? Just one after the other is one in a trillion now
00:29:55 ◼ ► Yeah, obviously Apple algorithm is better than that and people have more than 40 images in their collections and they're not sequential
00:30:04 ◼ ► The only reason I bring it up is to show that no matter how bad the neural hash algorithm is
00:30:12 ◼ ► To make sure that even though it might get one or two pictures wrong the odds of it getting 30 pictures wrong
00:30:25 ◼ ► And obviously they did that based on like test data or whatever and they mentioned that they will adjust it as long as the threshold
00:30:34 ◼ ► Probabilities go, you know go up pretty quickly as you start requiring more and more coincidences, right?
00:30:46 ◼ ► It's anyone who knows anything about hashing or any of these algorithms should know that this is gonna have false positives
00:30:50 ◼ ► That's the reason there's a threshold and that's also the reason as Marco mentioned that there's human review
00:30:54 ◼ ► Second thing to know is in terms of trying to make collisions people have made collisions
00:31:00 ◼ ► With like Marco said like noise images like oh this, you know, this is a picture of a dog
00:31:04 ◼ ► And here's just a gray bunch of noise and the algorithm thinks they're the same ha ha our computer's dumb
00:31:09 ◼ ► But it's so easy for a human to see the gray field of noise is not the picture of a dog, right?
00:31:13 ◼ ► But people have made other collisions where like here's a picture of a pen and here's a picture of a nail
00:31:20 ◼ ► Okay, I can kind of see that because they're both kind of long skinny things right on a white background, right?
00:31:26 ◼ ► Similar looking pictures, which is kind of this algorithms job. It's supposed to find the exact picture
00:31:37 ◼ ► But to sort of weaponize this what you need to do is not just get two images that collide
00:31:47 ◼ ► a harmless image that neural hash thinks matches one of the C Sam pictures in the nic mech database and
00:32:02 ◼ ► There is no way for you to get those specific hashes the things that ship on your phone are derived
00:32:09 ◼ ► From those hashes but are not in fact those hashes and here's what Apple had to say in this article from the verge
00:32:18 ◼ ► Apple said at C Sam scanning system is built with collisions in mind given the known limitations of perceptual hash hashing algorithms in particular the company
00:32:24 ◼ ► emphasized the secondary server-side hashing algorithm separate from neural hash the specifics of which are not public if an image that produces a neural hash collision was
00:32:33 ◼ ► Flagged by the system. It would be checked against the secondary system and identified as an error before reaching the human moderator
00:32:41 ◼ ► So neural hash algorithm is going to ship with your phone and we can run it and we can do all these
00:32:48 ◼ ► Different hashing algorithm that they run on the server side and so not only would you have to get the hash?
00:32:58 ◼ ► Find an image that matches it because if you have the hash you could find an image that matches it and then get it on
00:33:06 ◼ ► Needs to fool the other hashing algorithm that they're running which you don't have access to so you have no way to sort of reverse
00:33:12 ◼ ► Engineer that algorithm or figure out how to fool it or grab us. You need to fool two different
00:33:31 ◼ ► Trying to trying to fool the system with like a noise image or a picture of a dog or something is way more work
00:33:38 ◼ ► Than just finding actual see Sam on the internet, which is probably the neck make database and shoving on their phone in all cases
00:33:47 ◼ ► They didn't commit, you know, whatever you're gonna try to blackmail them, you know what I mean?
00:33:50 ◼ ► Well, I think that in the latter case, it's like you have two felonies instead of one, right?
00:33:54 ◼ ► Well, there's there's all these schemes are coming up. Like you could have someone in a lawless state
00:34:00 ◼ ► It's probably in the neck mech database and give you the neural hash of it because you otherwise you can't get that one and then
00:34:08 ◼ ► You're not in the possession of see Sam so you can find an image that matches that hash and put it on the phone
00:34:14 ◼ ► They're gonna run a different algorithm on it that you don't have access to and it's not gonna match in that case
00:34:17 ◼ ► So this is a fun interesting thing and it can freak people out who don't understand as Marco explained
00:34:23 ◼ ► that the job of a hashing algorithm is to take a large number of inputs and produce a much smaller number of outputs which
00:34:40 ◼ ► We need we when we have enough or preponderance of evidence the odds of that many false positives happening is very very low
00:34:49 ◼ ► so I think this story mostly faded because it's too again technical and weird and you know
00:35:00 ◼ ► I suppose and I feel like this part where Apple told us about the second server side hashing algorithm is
00:35:04 ◼ ► kind of an example of as far as I'm aware maybe security through obscurity because did they not tell us about that before and
00:35:11 ◼ ► Only revealed it now like that in other words that they have backstops against abuses. Yeah the second level
00:35:16 ◼ ► I don't think we knew about the second level of the hash, right? Which is I mean, it's fine
00:35:25 ◼ ► But another respect maybe it makes them more vulnerable to attacks to try to find the second algorithm all sorts of stuff like that
00:35:43 ◼ ► There have been some Safari 15 updates and actually there is a new developer beta that I believe was released the day
00:36:01 ◼ ► Put the public beta not the developer beta but the public beta on my phone about a week ago
00:36:08 ◼ ► And there's a couple of minor quirks here and there but for the most part it seems fine
00:36:12 ◼ ► And and I like the Safari now, I think I would have hated Safari a couple of builds ago
00:36:19 ◼ ► But yeah, so there have been some changes as of beta 6 which is presumably roughly the same public beta that I'm on
00:36:28 ◼ ► The the tab bar at the bottom. It's not a tab bar I suppose but the bar at the bottom tool
00:36:34 ◼ ► But isn't quite so the toolbar. Thank you the bottom of the toolbar at the bottom isn't quite so floaty for the most part
00:36:39 ◼ ► I know it behaves more logically perhaps Marco you have more to say about this than I but these are definitely strong improvements that
00:36:48 ◼ ► Have gotten so when I you know installed the public beta I didn't rage quit my phone, which is a good thing
00:36:59 ◼ ► But this new and this new interface the one that came out today which I think today's beta 7 or 8 anyway
00:37:15 ◼ ► You know last week beta 6 that that finally gave it like the big double height toolbar on the bottom the option to move the address
00:37:22 ◼ ► Bar back to the top so you can actually configure it to just be like old Safari was so finally I think on the iPhone
00:37:28 ◼ ► They have come up with like a decent good design not all parts of it are good not all configurations of it
00:37:40 ◼ ► You know what they did here in some ways is a design failure in the sense that they tried something radically new
00:37:51 ◼ ► They're now just offering a bunch of check boxes that you can configure it. It's like fine
00:37:59 ◼ ► And it would be good enough that everyone would use it and everyone would understand it
00:38:09 ◼ ► You can actually now configure it in a number of good ways depending on what your preferences are so
00:38:14 ◼ ► Now I'm happy with it. I know that's yeah, it sounds very entitled, but yeah now I'm happy with it
00:38:19 ◼ ► Like they they can ship this and I think I think what happened is you know they they tried something radical
00:38:34 ◼ ► You know the news came out earlier today that iCloud private relay is gonna actually launch as a beta feature that I believe is gonna
00:38:45 ◼ ► You know they're they're clearly like nailing stuff down getting ready for imminent release. You know I think
00:38:52 ◼ ► You know this beta that came out today might end up being the last beta before the GM probably not
00:39:06 ◼ ► We need to make people we need to make something that we can ship to the whole world and not have a massive problem on
00:39:21 ◼ ► So I don't have anything to say about those, but on the iPhone the iPhone Safari is now
00:39:50 ◼ ► But the thing I mind is I can never friggin tell which is the active tab never ever ever ever
00:39:58 ◼ ► Yeah, Stephen Hackett had a good post on 512 pixels dotnet the Safari 15 fight isn't over yet is the title
00:40:08 ◼ ► Talking again about all of our complaints about Mac Safari just read this blog post it reiterates all exactly the same things
00:40:18 ◼ ► Allowed you to revert the design to be more like the old Safari while still keeping the tabs
00:40:28 ◼ ► It's it's kind of surprising to me that they didn't just stick with the bottom toolbar one because really like as we said
00:40:34 ◼ ► Many past shows it was the floating part that was a problem, and it just doesn't float anymore now
00:40:38 ◼ ► It's just a big big bar at the bottom right and so that's their design stuff at the bottom
00:40:43 ◼ ► And they they found a straightforward way to do it without the weird floating thing that had all sorts of problems
00:40:49 ◼ ► I don't think it's particularly attractive, but you can swipe from side to side to go through tabs
00:40:58 ◼ ► It just gets rid of the terrible parts of it and the giant drop shadow and all those stuff
00:41:15 ◼ ► Not only do we iterate on the design and make changes in response to you know internal testing feedback
00:41:30 ◼ ► Does a worse job of that because if our in the Mac lets you change it back to the old way
00:41:35 ◼ ► But not really not really the old way you get the tabs that the tabs that don't make any sense because they look like the new
00:41:43 ◼ ► So why they look at the address bar, and that's why it case you can't tell what the heck they are so
00:41:49 ◼ ► But the Mac is on it kind of on a different beta cycle than the phone and it's gonna be released the Mac OS is
00:42:04 ◼ ► I'd say that's fair possibly the iPad - do you think like the reason they keep doing these you know radical design and then?
00:42:20 ◼ ► Like problems in the flow or do you think that's just like the maturity of a large company doing large things like it in some ways
00:42:40 ◼ ► It's another way of looking this like if you think this is if let's surmise that this is a bad thing
00:43:01 ◼ ► You really don't want the whole rest of the company to have veto power or what your group is doing like some group is responsible for
00:43:26 ◼ ► So we can't ship it like a big big wig manager on the mail team says this is a bad interface
00:43:32 ◼ ► They're not in charge of mobile Safari like you have to allow the people you hire to do their jobs
00:43:36 ◼ ► So the only way to stop something like this from happening is not to have some sort of weird
00:43:40 ◼ ► Organization where everyone has veto power over everyone else like that's quite incredibly dysfunctional
00:43:48 ◼ ► But upwards in the org chart and it's very difficult to do that in Apple's very flat organization
00:43:52 ◼ ► Probably the biggest big wig who's in charge of like iOS software like they probably report right up to the CEO
00:44:16 ◼ ► Who had good enough instincts or taste to stop this from shipping and having WDC sessions about it?
00:44:31 ◼ ► But the fact is a lot of stuff that didn't make it out the door because the one big wig guy the CEO
00:44:44 ◼ ► But lots of other things that we don't like he wouldn't have stopped because his taste was super weird
00:44:48 ◼ ► But that's it. That's the only way you can really stop this from happening. So I feel like
00:44:52 ◼ ► It's not a strategy to say, you know, step one hire Steve Jobs like there's not a viable strategy
00:44:58 ◼ ► And again, it's not even foolproof. So I would say that this is not the sign of an organization that has any sort of
00:45:25 ◼ ► Have some not great it's not the ideas because everyone's like all ideas are great. Let's hear it. Let's try it or whatever but like
00:45:52 ◼ ► Decided to listen the the way they decide what feedback they will listen to and what feedback they will ignore
00:45:59 ◼ ► It's Apple's values that determines that because everybody somewhere hates something that Apple does like no matter what Apple does
00:46:11 ◼ ► This subset of people who don't like this thing. We agree with them. They're right. This could be better
00:46:23 ◼ ► Somewhere there is a mismatch between the values the value system used to judge the success of the work
00:46:30 ◼ ► Within you know, the mobile Safari group and the values of Apple as a whole I don't begrudge
00:46:36 ◼ ► Apple trying something it's it's so tough because on the one side will tell you like oh Apple should try things more and get
00:46:51 ◼ ► Why did they release this ever and I think it's possible for both those things to be true, but it's it's it's tough
00:46:58 ◼ ► Especially with Apple, you know you they they proclaim that their their stuff is so well designed
00:47:05 ◼ ► It's so well thought out remember when they used to say it just works too. That was fun. But nevertheless it
00:47:21 ◼ ► Do we present this perfectly wrapped package and only when it's perfectly wrapped that in that we will let it out of Apple parts
00:47:28 ◼ ► Or do we show kind of the build process and let people get involved and see see what happens and in this case. I
00:47:38 ◼ ► Kind of the world get involved with with you know, kind of voting on on what they think but I don't know
00:47:45 ◼ ► It seems to me like anyone with any amount of taste would have seen that this was a flawed design from the get-go
00:47:53 ◼ ► I'm pretty happy with like the left particularly on the phone the left right swipey on the bottom
00:48:00 ◼ ► In in having the address bar at the bottom is great for those of us who don't have miniature phones like Marco
00:48:06 ◼ ► So no matter how you slice it is it is good. My miniature phone has a heart - it has feelings
00:48:15 ◼ ► You know, what else doesn't have battery life my watch by 40 millimeters series 6 whatever it is
00:48:29 ◼ ► 89% battery health after about a year on the mini which I think is the biggest loss ever gotten in a year
00:48:35 ◼ ► I wonder what mine is now. We're now we're on a tangent of attention. Let's let's all look
00:48:39 ◼ ► Battery battery health 90% on my 12 Pro. Okay. So, you know you're doing not too not too much better 1% better
00:48:54 ◼ ► It's very rare that I charge with anything but Chi and I my gut tells me although it may be
00:49:03 ◼ ► Well, I think it's I mean so keep in mind also like the the new phones with with modern OSes
00:49:08 ◼ ► Do that weird thing where they don't even charge all the way until you're gonna wake up soon, right?
00:49:18 ◼ ► Preserving the lifespan of lithium-ion batteries charging them in a hot environment is not great and she adds heat
00:49:30 ◼ ► But I don't know how much like I don't I don't know if we have good information on like
00:49:43 ◼ ► But is that enough to make a difference with that amount of heat over the typical lifespan of a phone?
00:49:49 ◼ ► you know versus just its natural degradation or the the degradation introduced by things like
00:49:55 ◼ ► Constantly site like cycling it down a lot every day or fast charging it which is also probably worse for it
00:50:01 ◼ ► Because that's charging a faster introducing more heat is it's probably not good either
00:50:05 ◼ ► So there's all sorts of other factors with the way we use our phones these days that I don't know how much she actually matters
00:50:26 ◼ ► They partner with renowned crafts people and they make premium kitchen tools available directly to you without the usual big retail
00:50:42 ◼ ► You know you want to know how people make really good food or what makes people enjoy cooking so much
00:50:46 ◼ ► You got to have the right tools you have to have good quality tools that aren't gonna fight you that are gonna
00:50:51 ◼ ► Give you good results. They're gonna last made in gives you that the cookware distributes heat evenly
00:50:57 ◼ ► It can easily go from the stovetop to the oven the knives are fully forged perfectly balanced
00:51:07 ◼ ► 50,000 plus five-star reviews and their products are used by some of the world's best chefs including at Michelin starred restaurants around the world
00:51:15 ◼ ► So see for yourself what the big deal is with made in if quality is important to you if
00:51:20 ◼ ► Crashmanship is important to you check out made in this gives you better cookware for better meals go to made in cookware
00:51:34 ◼ ► This is the best price available anywhere online for made in products made in cookware com slash
00:52:04 ◼ ► like I'm gonna blow through a handful of selections over the last month month and a half of
00:52:29 ◼ ► Consistently happening. I feel like every week there's some new brouhaha about Apple and yes, of course
00:52:37 ◼ ► Yeah, I get that but I feel like a lot of times it'll be somebody saying oh, you know Apple's Apple's doing this thing
00:52:44 ◼ ► That's wrong somebody from the outside. Whereas I would argue a lot of this stuff and I'm gonna go through it in a minute
00:52:49 ◼ ► It's happening internally and just leaking out into real world or it's it's Apple making
00:52:57 ◼ ► And so I'm not terribly interested unless the two of you are in in going through the particulars about any one of these things
00:53:05 ◼ ► but I'd like to take you through a timeline and and start with Thursday, July 15th when
00:53:11 ◼ ► This is shortly after Apple had announced that they were gonna start bringing people back which they've since backpedaled on
00:53:19 ◼ ► We're gonna do a hybrid model and I thought my head I think was like Tuesday Wednesday Thursday in the office Monday and Friday
00:53:29 ◼ ► I've talked to many birdies who are saying that a lot of people are leaving because of it
00:53:34 ◼ ► Maybe that's hearsay. Maybe that is hearsay. Maybe that's not true. But that's what I'm hearing but you know
00:53:43 ◼ ► One employee said in slack that Apple even denied their ADA American Disability Act Association something like that work from home accommodation
00:53:54 ◼ ► Apparently Apple said tough nuggies if you were to believe them, that's Thursday, July 15
00:53:58 ◼ ► Moving right along Wednesday the 4th of August Apple places a program manager on administrative leave for her request
00:54:04 ◼ ► after accusations of a toxic workplace again, I'm not really looking to litigate these particular points, but
00:54:10 ◼ ► Apparently a woman at Apple had and I don't have her name in front of me. I'm sorry. I had
00:54:24 ◼ ► Can we you know work this out and apparently they're working it out. That was Wednesday the 4th of August
00:54:30 ◼ ► So literally the next day the completely bungled rollout of all the see Sam protections and so on and so forth
00:54:49 ◼ ► To get an understanding of whether or not pay is equitable amongst gender amongst roles
00:54:58 ◼ ► And several other facets and so share was trying to get Apple employees to voluntarily fill out information about you know
00:55:05 ◼ ► What they're making what their role is etc. And apparently Apple's been shutting this down more and more and more violently
00:55:15 ◼ ► Apple Forces flick type watch out of the App Store. So this was a an app that I guess would let you do kind of like
00:55:22 ◼ ► a swipey keyboard thing on your watch which unbeknownst to me as so many things are I'm really I
00:55:27 ◼ ► Need to get better about this but unbeknownst to me apparently this was really important for people that had accessibility needs
00:55:34 ◼ ► and so a lot of people would use this keyboard in order to respond to text messages and things like that and
00:55:40 ◼ ► Miguel de casa who is a friend of the show had pointed out that this is one of the things that
00:55:46 ◼ ► Apple had previously touted as being one of their favorite apps in the App Store for accessibility. Well done guys
00:55:54 ◼ ► Just a couple of days ago Monday the 23rd of August Apple employees are now organizing under the banner
00:55:59 ◼ ► Hashtag Apple - which is in the spirit of me - so this is what like six or seven items over the course of a month
00:56:10 ◼ ► Causing like quite the blow-up and I feel like they are just fighting a PR war on themselves and this is
00:56:40 ◼ ► Was gonna like dive into the title that you gave this for the topic Apple's fighting a PR war against itself and say like what?
00:56:53 ◼ ► Like the spirit of it like the way I first I read it and made perfect sense, but then I read it again
00:57:05 ◼ ► So lots of people as you as you noted, but people probably didn't hear so I'm gonna say it again
00:57:11 ◼ ► It's like they're the biggest company in the world super popular to like of course is gonna be negative stories about Apple
00:57:16 ◼ ► It's been happening the whole life of the company and just as they've gotten more powerful and more popular just happens even more and more
00:57:24 ◼ ► Why are you even talking about this? There's always negative stories about Apple how half the things we do on the show
00:57:29 ◼ ► Some people will say oh you're saying negative things about Apple. Is that what you're talking about the show?
00:57:35 ◼ ► but I think what is different about this set of items or most of the set of items that you've gathered up here and
00:57:56 ◼ ► Image of itself and the image they project to the world very often the negative stories about Apple are
00:58:01 ◼ ► Something that is negative perceived to be negative by the world and certainly by whoever is writing the story
00:58:11 ◼ ► Don't know like I mean, this is this is kind of fraught because of the antitrust stuff like oh the App Store
00:58:20 ◼ ► Why does everything have to go through the App Store Apple would say I know you don't like that decision
00:58:24 ◼ ► But we think it's perfectly in keeping with Apple's philosophy of having things be proprietary and having us control them and stuff like you
00:58:38 ◼ ► They're like why doesn't Apple license the operating system that Microsoft is eating their lunch because they've insist on making the hardware on the software
00:58:46 ◼ ► Negative story after negative story about that, but Apple would say yeah, that's that we see that's a negative story. But our
00:58:57 ◼ ► We know that we're not letting you make Mac clones except for that one time we did which was a mistake
00:59:01 ◼ ► But you know, we know we're not letting you run Mac OS on cheap generic PC hardware. Like that's a strategy
00:59:08 ◼ ► We're doing that on purpose that fits with our image of our self that's fits with how we present ourselves to the world
00:59:26 ◼ ► That fly pretty much exactly counter to how Apple thinks of itself into Apple how Apple presents itself to the world
00:59:35 ◼ ► Wants to think of itself and wants to present itself to the world as a company that is fair and equitable to its employees that it's
00:59:41 ◼ ► A good place for anyone to work that is a place where they are fighting against workplace harassment discrimination
00:59:47 ◼ ► So and so or Apple doesn't say that it's perfect like but they Apple tries to hold itself accountable and here the values we believe
00:59:54 ◼ ► We will try to remedy it and this is what we're shooting for but these are stories about Apple doing the opposite and saying
01:00:05 ◼ ► Despite the fact that it's against the law for Apple to literally stop that Apple finds technicality and say well
01:00:14 ◼ ► But if you do it and involve Apple systems in any way like if you post on an internal Apple bulletin board if you use
01:00:19 ◼ ► Your company, you know supplied computer to do it. Like there's all sorts of these technicalities where Apple can
01:00:24 ◼ ► Strongly discourage slash squash this especially if it happens inside the company where I said Apple can say we're not breaking the law
01:00:31 ◼ ► But the spirit is you don't want employees to know what all their co-workers are making
01:00:39 ◼ ► Because what you're hiding something like it doesn't like that is not in keeping with hey
01:00:44 ◼ ► We want to have an equitable workplace where everyone feels welcome and where the pay is fair and so on and so forth, right?
01:00:49 ◼ ► They do all these readouts about how well they're doing and hiring and diversity and all that other stuff
01:01:07 ◼ ► Yeah, Apple to the the harassment stuff the the see Sam stuff Apple's in we talked about this in many past shows
01:01:14 ◼ ► Apple's whole thing is we're the privacy company. We want to do things for maximum privacy
01:01:17 ◼ ► And in this case, it's a little bit more nuanced because Apple thinks it is doing something that's in keeping with privacy
01:01:24 ◼ ► But still the PR rollout is against Apple's normal practice of having a very controlled careful PR message in this case
01:01:42 ◼ ► The way Apple presented it was not in keeping with Apple's usual image of itself as we know how to communicate
01:01:54 ◼ ► They choose very carefully what they want to communicate and they make sure that that is the message that gets out
01:02:03 ◼ ► Have a different kind of story like the story that Apple wants to see written is the story
01:02:07 ◼ ► That fits with the message that putting out and Apple is so good at that except for in the case of this stuff
01:02:21 ◼ ► Like again our could be argued that's in keeping with Apple's tradition of having everybody work there
01:02:25 ◼ ► But it's it is against the tradition of trying to be accommodating and welcoming and so on and so forth
01:02:31 ◼ ► You know, especially like oh all the stories about how Apple is very accommodating during the kovat Christ and everything
01:02:36 ◼ ► That's in keeping with Apple's corporate philosophy is extenuating circumstances it you know, we will
01:02:41 ◼ ► Accommodate for that and you could even say hey, well we have a new policy even post kovat
01:02:48 ◼ ► But yeah Apple being at war with its employees is not in keeping with the image of presents to the world
01:03:08 ◼ ► You want the image that you present to the world to be supported by everything you do and in this case, you know
01:03:17 ◼ ► Like that it's losing control of what is coming out of the company like there's their you know
01:03:33 ◼ ► Apple I dare you to punish fire me for telling the world that this is going on and Apple's like, okay
01:03:40 ◼ ► We'll take that bet we will punish you and it just makes them look worse. Right? Yep, so
01:03:53 ◼ ► Or change the image you present to the world and I would suggest doing the first one because most of the things Apple is doing
01:03:58 ◼ ► Again smell like they've come up when we've talked about App Store or other things like it smells like there's someone somewhere in the organization
01:04:10 ◼ ► For example for employees to know how much they all their their co-workers make right and so they're just doing anything
01:04:22 ◼ ► You know is my goal in keeping with Apple's values they just say like no like this. This is what I want
01:04:28 ◼ ► Maybe I work in the HR department and it will hurt my ability to hire and it will I have to rebalance everyone's salary or
01:04:33 ◼ ► I don't want the world to know how unfairly the women are being paid in the cut like there's reasons why they're doing it
01:04:38 ◼ ► But something else in the organization should be overriding that they're you know, sort of localized self-interest interest in the HR department to say
01:04:54 ◼ ► So why are you even bothering to like finally technicalities right? Because they're just gonna eventually do it
01:04:58 ◼ ► Anyway, they'll put up a Google Sheet and they'll talk about it after work off of Apple's get like, you know
01:05:03 ◼ ► And and be if someone knows that you've been spending all this time trying to squash this
01:05:10 ◼ ► Like the bottom line is do we care about equitable pay or do we not and if we do care about it?
01:05:18 ◼ ► And if it's bad say we know it's bad and we're working to improve it in a ways X Y & Z which they mostly deal with
01:05:26 ◼ ► So what you don't want is a month like this where the accumulation of stories slowly convinced people that Apple is not the company
01:05:42 ◼ ► If you're the biggest company in the world people always gonna be trying to tear you down
01:05:45 ◼ ► Like I still think in the grand scheme of things Apple is way better than average on all these things, right?
01:05:51 ◼ ► And a part of the reason these stories gets traction is because we expect so much of Apple and because they're such a pinnacle
01:05:57 ◼ ► You know, they're up on a pedestal people want to tear them down and any little thing they do you're gonna yell them out
01:06:05 ◼ ► You can think of much worse things that have happened to them at their job or they've seen happen in their job or their
01:06:21 ◼ ► It's like Marco and his dependencies the beauty and the curse of Apple that we we hold them to a higher standard
01:06:39 ◼ ► like again this room for criticism and all of them whether it's labor in China or how they deal with China at all or
01:06:45 ◼ ► Cozing up the Trump at the Mac Pro factory like there's always things to criticize but through it all I feel like
01:06:59 ◼ ► we will acknowledge when we fell short and we will try to do better and make changes and
01:07:03 ◼ ► Seeing Apple actively work against forces within its own company that are trying to improve it
01:07:09 ◼ ► Right like say I'm reporting harassment take care of the rest. Don't yell at me. I'm trying to help make the pay more equitable
01:07:14 ◼ ► Don't you stop the survey? You should be asking for they don't need the results, or they know what everyone's being paid
01:07:19 ◼ ► but anyway, they should you should be taking this feedback and acting on it and not trying to you know, stop me or whatever and
01:07:24 ◼ ► Again, I'm gonna set aside the app store rejections. We've spoken enough about that from our perspective
01:07:34 ◼ ► rejections, but there's so many of those and it's so difficult to tell which are the good or which are the bad and you know
01:07:38 ◼ ► That's a that's a long-running thing that maybe Congress will sort out eventually, but yeah
01:07:47 ◼ ► Takes all that kind of like this is our 15 stuff like sometimes things go badly and you have a bad result
01:07:53 ◼ ► But you can you can snatch victory from the jaws of defeat by saying we're going to learn from this
01:08:02 ◼ ► Remedial action and the next time we'll do better and that's what Apple should do in all these circumstances, but the first step is
01:08:09 ◼ ► Acknowledging that you're making a mistake like, you know, stop doing the things that are bad and then you know
01:08:20 ◼ ► Think my thesis was too brief in and you did an excellent job of capturing what I was trying to say
01:08:25 ◼ ► Which is exactly that that this is incongruent with my perception of Apple and certainly the perception of Apple
01:08:31 ◼ ► I think Apple wants me to have and and that is in short what I'm seeing over the last month
01:08:41 ◼ ► I am one actually one more thing on this like the we keep talking about Apple like as if it's this disembodied entity
01:08:51 ◼ ► The nature of companies is the people are it's not made up all those people evenly right, you know, so there's thousands of employees and
01:09:04 ◼ ► Counts has a much higher weighting factor and then as you go down the org chart, you know
01:09:09 ◼ ► The weighting factors get smaller and smaller and they rank and file people have a much lower weighting factor in the average
01:09:33 ◼ ► They have a boss who has a boss who has a boss who tells them what to do and has the power to fire them
01:09:42 ◼ ► These employees pushing back are in fact embodying the values of Apple because they make up the values of Apple like the actual on
01:09:53 ◼ ► Values of Apple is embodied by its employees and in that way all these stories do reflect
01:09:58 ◼ ► The mass of Apple living up to its ideals, but these people don't run Apple and that's the disappointing
01:10:06 ◼ ► So what? Yeah, so when we're talking about Apple we're talking about the people who are in charge of Apple
01:10:10 ◼ ► Not the majority of the employees at Apple who mostly are like ever, you know Apple employees though
01:10:16 ◼ ► Great enthusiastic people with great values who want all the best for everybody else who works at Apple and there's just it doesn't you know
01:10:42 ◼ ► From the bottom or from anywhere because you know, I think somebody I think it was on Dubai Friday
01:11:00 ◼ ► It's easy for everyone at the company, you know at all levels to get into the mindset of
01:11:08 ◼ ► We know what's best obviously because look at how well we're doing look at this great stuff for making we're really changing the world
01:11:15 ◼ ► We're doing great work. We're making great things. So therefore we are great and the way we do things is great
01:11:26 ◼ ► the reason why this thing is the way it is is because a middle manager somewhere along the chain of command is
01:11:45 ◼ ► It's because they're in their project even though it shouldn't go in a certain direction
01:11:53 ◼ ► Motives and incentives we we've heard this over and over again over many years. This is not new
01:11:59 ◼ ► It does seem like Apple is like any other big company. You have people problems. You have incentive problems
01:12:05 ◼ ► You have cultural problems and as the company has gotten bigger that hasn't, you know, obviously gotten better
01:12:27 ◼ ► Is this the Tim Cook way or is this just as the company got bigger this happened, but we know that they have
01:12:44 ◼ ► Recognizing when it isn't the best recognizing when they had when they've done something that that isn't good
01:12:53 ◼ ► Sometimes it takes them a long time to recognize that sometimes their own internal culture seems to
01:13:02 ◼ ► so it's very hard for them to seemingly to recognize when they have an internal problem or
01:13:10 ◼ ► Hell an external problem like when they have a product problem. It's very hard for them to recognize that sometimes I hope
01:13:15 ◼ ► Some of these massive PR blunders they've created for themselves over the last, you know year or so
01:13:23 ◼ ► Hope maybe this is shining a light on their own cultural problems to the people who matter who can you know?
01:13:41 ◼ ► Because they are a big company like any other they have problems like any other they're gonna have jerky bosses here
01:13:50 ◼ ► recognize that's gonna be a thing that they have to deal with and put systems in place to deal with it better than the way
01:13:55 ◼ ► They're dealing with it right now because it does seem like that's not as good as it could be
01:13:58 ◼ ► So I hope this has been kind of a wake-up call because you know one other thing, you know
01:14:07 ◼ ► It does, you know, we've we've commented a lot in recent years about how it seems like they're they misread the room
01:14:21 ◼ ► that the world didn't love something they put out there or something they said as much as they did and
01:14:31 ◼ ► it's all like this company has been so successful for so long and they think everything they do is gold and
01:14:43 ◼ ► Hope we see movement in that area. I think we might be slowly seeing them get better at that
01:14:49 ◼ ► but but I do think they I hope they keep going on that I hope they keep pushing on that because
01:15:08 ◼ ► they're gonna keep missing problems and they're gonna keep putting their foot in their mouths and
01:15:17 ◼ ► Go in with a little more humble attitude and say, you know, we're we're not great in all ways here
01:15:24 ◼ ► Let's start changing some of our attitudes some of our culture some of our workplace environment rules and things like that
01:15:29 ◼ ► To actually better address this stuff and speaking of like things changing and recent months and years
01:15:49 ◼ ► Which is a thing that almost never happens even about the most trivial things let alone like let me air my internal HR related
01:15:55 ◼ ► Grievances about Apple while I'm still employed at Apple who's unheard of and part of that was you just mentioned Steve Jobs as
01:16:04 ◼ ► he was also a massive authoritarian and he would probably fire these people on the spot if he was still alive because you know,
01:16:09 ◼ ► Oh, yeah, the the environment of fear that caused everyone to be silent was not a good thing
01:16:14 ◼ ► It was you know, the external effect of that was Apple had very controlled messaging and no one ever said anything but internally
01:16:24 ◼ ► So who knows what terrible things could have been going on back in the era where if you said anything on Twitter if you acknowledge
01:16:29 ◼ ► That you were an employee of Apple and said something that got picked up by some news org
01:16:38 ◼ ► He would say can we just fire that person and maybe your boss will argue for another really important that the only person who knows
01:16:43 ◼ ► How this thing in the kernel works and he maybe he would grumble but obviously, you know
01:16:48 ◼ ► like the idea of being fired for doing something like that is a thing that happens in small startups with tyrants who run them and
01:16:55 ◼ ► at various times at one of the biggest tech companies the world when Steve Jobs was there because you know one of his less
01:17:02 ◼ ► Less desirable attributes. Let's say it was his authoritarian bent about command and control of the company. That was his that he was running
01:17:10 ◼ ► So the change that has taken place recently is employees are like poking their little heads out of their holes and being like
01:17:20 ◼ ► Work, I'm not gonna tell you like Apple secret product not even gonna tell you what team I'm on because they still are too afraid
01:17:25 ◼ ► To do that. They won't even like I work at Apple on software, right? But a few of them are coming up and saying
01:17:37 ◼ ► I really like at Apple because we have this group and we talk and my manager says this or whatever was like
01:17:41 ◼ ► I can't believe I'm hearing about things that are going on inside Apple from someone who still works there even hearing people
01:17:46 ◼ ► I've been outside Apple for five years and I'm finally ready to tweet about it right even hearing that used to be a big thing
01:17:55 ◼ ► I brought this to HR I brought them all this evidence about all this terrible things happened to me
01:17:58 ◼ ► Here's a screenshot of a message conversation. I have with my boss that I sent them and Apple said it was fine
01:18:03 ◼ ► What do you think like we're all just holding your breath and going is that person gonna be fired tomorrow?
01:18:20 ◼ ► Start to air their grievances in public and let these stories get picked up by the press and put pressure on the company
01:18:29 ◼ ► Sidelined or put on an administrative leave or like the company will find excuses to fire them do all those terrible things that companies do
01:18:53 ◼ ► Pressure applied by the press and podcasts talk about Apple or whatever because when this stuff was going on and we didn't know about it
01:18:59 ◼ ► We could just say oh Apple. They're so disciplined. They have great messaging and look at their products. It's all wonderful. Steve jobs is great
01:19:08 ◼ ► We just didn't hear about them and so I would rather hear about them and if hearing if this is the only way like, you know
01:19:17 ◼ ► so now that I'm telling all employees like risk your job and your livelihood and your future career by
01:19:22 ◼ ► You know publicly airing all of your grievances about the Apple workplace like no you can never ask that of people
01:19:30 ◼ ► I think there's lots of great leadership in Apple that is also working in this direction
01:19:34 ◼ ► But there's enough bad spots in that org chart that Apple is doing some things that are very counter to the values that the vast vast
01:19:46 ◼ ► Situation so kudos to all the Apple employees being brave. I hope it works out for you and you know
01:20:00 ◼ ► 1% or less doing the wrong thing in the right positions in the company to really mess things up for everybody else
01:20:05 ◼ ► We are sponsored this week by Linode my favorite place to run servers visit linode.com/ATP
01:20:16 ◼ ► Infrastructure as a service provider by both G2 and TrustRadius and personally if I was making such a list
01:20:21 ◼ ► I would also rank in the top because I've used so many hosts to host servers in my career so far
01:20:28 ◼ ► Linode is the one I've stuck with the longest and it's by far the one I've been happiest with it is the best
01:20:33 ◼ ► Value they have amazing support. It's easy to use. The control panel is nicely designed. They have tons of capabilities
01:20:42 ◼ ► So not only do they obviously have you know, the the actual Linode server virtual servers that they offer the cloud servers
01:20:54 ◼ ► They have all sorts of plans to fit your needs and your price point. They have also add-on services like block storage
01:21:01 ◼ ► Kubernetes they have an upcoming bare-metal release so much available on Linode a great ecosystem around it with a one-click app
01:21:09 ◼ ► Marketplace a full API so you can automate your own, you know server migrations or administration or you know scaling all that all on Linode
01:21:26 ◼ ► You know that the bill could add up pretty fast if it wasn't a good value but on Linode
01:21:36 ◼ ► I've been with them because they're whenever technology gets better. They're able to offer more for less they do so it's fantastic
01:21:43 ◼ ► Linode makes cloud computing fast simple and affordable so you can focus on your projects not your infrastructure visit Linode
01:21:51 ◼ ► com slash ATP create a free account with your Google or github account or email address and you get a hundred dollars in credit once
01:22:06 ◼ ► Colin writes are there any tips for organizing an Apple Photos library of about 30,000 photos the conditions you can put on smart albums
01:22:16 ◼ ► Don't seem robust enough. Mostly. I'm just going through them by hand deleting and sorting the last 20 years
01:22:30 ◼ ► So John you seem to be the most invested in Apple Photos of the three of us. Tell me what's the right answer?
01:22:42 ◼ ► Right, and this is the sounds it's trickier than that because if you just use that feature and you save every photo you haven't organized
01:22:49 ◼ ► Anything right? So there's a ratio and other right? Yeah, or if you if you save one out of every
01:22:54 ◼ ► 10,000 photos then you have three faves and that doesn't help you either right? So you have to sort of
01:23:04 ◼ ► What you want to do is basically I should look at the the math to see what ratio, you know
01:23:11 ◼ ► What is my favorite issue? Is it one out of every ten one of every hundred every fifty but
01:23:18 ◼ ► This a picture that I would consider printing putting in a frame that I'd want to see in a screensaver
01:23:23 ◼ ► Like is it a good photo right? And if you're honest with yourself, you don't have that many of those
01:23:33 ◼ ► And so I would say go I mean if you really want to do this, this is the question from Colin
01:23:37 ◼ ► I want to organize my 30,000 photos. You're gonna have to go through all 30,000 and save the good ones
01:23:41 ◼ ► And when you're done with that incredible laborious process because you're starting behind 30,000, right?
01:23:46 ◼ ► Then you click on the little favorites thing in the sidebar. Suddenly your 30,000 photo collection becomes a
01:23:58 ◼ ► Now you're getting somewhere you can put those in random playing your screensaver, right?
01:24:09 ◼ ► Click on favorites first scroll backwards to the year. They were five you're looking at 30 pictures, right?
01:24:19 ◼ ► And you know the number one tool like that's not the only tool but that is the easiest and the most important one
01:24:29 ◼ ► It's just an ongoing process and I'm going through 30,000 is gonna seem like a lot. It's not that bad
01:24:34 ◼ ► Consider it like picking right? You obviously you can delete the ones that are blurry or terrible or out of focus
01:24:45 ◼ ► You have to do anything them just save them. That is the most important one then beyond that
01:24:56 ◼ ► Marco any thoughts? Nope. I don't organize my photo library at all. Yeah for me. It's just by date and I am
01:25:03 ◼ ► trying to be somewhat diligent about the people feature in Apple photos and like, you know, making sure that I'm
01:25:08 ◼ ► that that the photos that are claimed to be Declan for example are actually actually Declan, but yeah, I
01:25:21 ◼ ► Apple photos by either date or by location. So yeah, I'm pretty useless in this capacity. Sorry Colin Sam writes
01:25:28 ◼ ► How does one Google for specific tech problems without receiving incredibly vague and unrelated answers?
01:25:33 ◼ ► I'm sure you've all faced this at some point search engines will always push the most generic catch-all articles because that's what gets the most clicks. I
01:25:40 ◼ ► I don't have any good recipes for this either to be honest with you. I'm assuming that John does oftentimes
01:25:49 ◼ ► Results knowing full well that they're gonna be shovelware and then after you know page two or three
01:25:55 ◼ ► I'll finally find the thing that's useful. But John you probably have some science that you can perform here
01:25:59 ◼ ► Yeah, the the sort of failure modes are familiar for anyone who's ever tried to Google for like best refrigerator
01:26:09 ◼ ► Spam links where people just make make web pages by copying pasting data from other things
01:26:14 ◼ ► So they come up as the number one through 100 results on best insert name of product, right?
01:26:22 ◼ ► No one's doing SEO to get this but I don't like I don't know what to type to describe it
01:26:30 ◼ ► like those are not gonna get you anywhere because it's too generic and people have been having those problems forever and it's
01:26:36 ◼ ► It's a sign that you don't know enough about what's going on to formulate a good question
01:26:55 ◼ ► but I'm here to tell you that you need to go against your instincts and try this which is
01:26:59 ◼ ► Type out like, you know, it's kind of like rubber ducking pretend someone came into the room and said hey
01:27:06 ◼ ► What's the problem and you had to explain it to them? Whatever you would say to them type that into the little search box
01:27:11 ◼ ► You're like, but I'm gonna say seven sentences them. You want me to type that whole big thing into the search box?
01:27:15 ◼ ► Yeah type, you know, I was running Adobe Photoshop and every time I click on the bucket tool
01:27:21 ◼ ► You know, it makes a beeping noise and then the screen turns blue and I can't get it to stop
01:27:26 ◼ ► Every single word I just said put that into the Google search box and you're like, there's no way that's gonna work
01:27:32 ◼ ► It's it's ridiculous. It's all that like that's just the way I phrased it in a sentence and it's not you know
01:27:37 ◼ ► I'm not looking for those words. And what if someone described the problem that they use different words?
01:27:44 ◼ ► The way this works best obviously is for non computer stuff where you say that person with the brown hair who's been in the movie with
01:27:53 ◼ ► But wasn't his co-star but it was different romantic interest type all that into the Google search box
01:28:03 ◼ ► Someone someone's at a table like who's in that movie and people are trying to do these these three word Google queries
01:28:12 ◼ ► It works great for celebrities, but for computer stuff, it can sometimes work that's strategy number one strategy number two
01:28:17 ◼ ► Try to fix it yourself until you get an error message paste copy paste the error message into
01:28:21 ◼ ► because that's the secret of tech support and tech nerds the secret of all programming really in the modern era is
01:28:31 ◼ ► And hopefully you'll get an error message and you hope against hope that that error message has enough uniqueness in it
01:28:37 ◼ ► Not too much uniqueness because you don't want like process IDs or dates or other stuff, right?
01:28:45 ◼ ► Maybe you'll get zero results then sort of narrow the double quotes down to just sort of the meat of the thing until you start
01:28:58 ◼ ► Try it yourself find an error message put it in double quotes and narrow the double quotes
01:29:02 ◼ ► Yeah, it's useful to know that like for most at least on the Mac most error messages have selectable text these days
01:29:16 ◼ ► You know trying to find any information the web can be pretty difficult these days because there's just so much just
01:29:23 ◼ ► Spam and algorithmically generated garbage and affiliate marketing sites and stuff. It's really hard
01:29:31 ◼ ► But I think this is you know, this is like the scale we've been training our entire lives building up
01:29:42 ◼ ► Think the the answer is you just you know that you're gonna wait through a bunch of crap you
01:29:47 ◼ ► You know mentally prepare yourself like alright fine. I'm gonna type in this terrible query into Google
01:29:52 ◼ ► I know I'm gonna go through many pages of garbage trying to refine what I'm looking for, you know
01:30:05 ◼ ► Finally kind of like narrow in and what you're looking for, but in there in the reality, you know
01:30:12 ◼ ► Certainly certain areas are worse than others. I agree with you know, what John said about like if you're looking for like product recommendations
01:30:23 ◼ ► Like the reason why wire cutter is so popular is not because they necessarily always have great picks
01:30:34 ◼ ► There's pretty much nowhere else trustworthy to go. It's really hard to look anywhere else
01:30:46 ◼ ► Best blender is just a convenient way for me to get to wire cutters latest blender ratings
01:30:49 ◼ ► Which I could just go to wire cutter comm and click around but Google makes it faster to type wire cutter best blender
01:30:54 ◼ ► It's the same reason I type, you know, Tom Cruise movies Wikipedia because I don't want results for anywhere else
01:31:01 ◼ ► I know I could just do W space with my little shortcut that goes right to the Wikipedia search or whatever, but like
01:31:24 ◼ ► You you kind of know where you'd like to find this answer and you could look there for us
01:31:28 ◼ ► Like you don't have to go as far as the right like stack overflow can't use undefined value as hash reference, right?
01:31:35 ◼ ► Cuz they're usually number one in the search results without the word in there, but wire cutter isn't you type best blender forget it
01:31:45 ◼ ► I'm sure many of you out there have have noticed that whenever you search for anything that is vaguely
01:31:56 ◼ ► like, you know, some of their like some of them aren't coding related some of them like, you know system in stuff or just to help with
01:32:10 ◼ ► But you will also find seven or eight sites that might even rank above it that are all just ripping off stack overflow
01:32:23 ◼ ► What how do I do this thing on my Linux server or what is this weird error message from my SQL mean and you'll find?
01:32:41 ◼ ► independent original but of course you can tell they're all just scraping whatever the heck the same
01:32:45 ◼ ► Original source was whether it was stack overflow or something else and you just kind of you know as modern internet searchers
01:32:51 ◼ ► You just kind of learn to spot this kind of stuff and you start realizing things like which I was saying like if this is
01:32:57 ◼ ► The kind of answer that I already know a pretty trustworthy source will probably have I will just search for their answer
01:33:09 ◼ ► So this is you know, you start you start realizing. Okay. Well for these kind of things
01:33:13 ◼ ► I'll add stack overflow to the query. So I just go right there for these kind of things
01:33:21 ◼ ► This incidentally is a good way to judge the health of your website. Someone mentioned IMDB in the chat
01:33:26 ◼ ► IMDB is ostensibly the internet movie database, but every time I want to know something about a movie I type, you know
01:33:40 ◼ ► You know why because IMDB is impossible for me to find I want to find out what year was this release and who is the director?
01:33:44 ◼ ► Wikipedia has that info boom one second. It's right there in my face. I am DB can't find it for the life of me and
01:33:59 ◼ ► Just you know, that's not that I keep promoting Wikipedia because I own problems with it or whatever
01:34:13 ◼ ► Finally Mark Slutsky writes do I ever need to update Java every time this window comes up?
01:34:18 ◼ ► I dismiss it been doing so for years now. Nothing bad ever seems to happen, but am I wrong to do so?
01:34:28 ◼ ► I cannot remember the last time I've had like a full board Java installation on any of my computers
01:34:33 ◼ ► It's been I think longer since I've had a full bore, you know, Windows VM on one of my computers
01:34:42 ◼ ► Software update dialog Apple used to ship Java with his computer isn't eventually it was available as a separate download
01:34:48 ◼ ► But once you installed it from Apple like you'd get updates to it and eventually just you know, Apple stopped supplying it
01:34:56 ◼ ► You know what's data but this looks like the Apple update dialogue and one of the reasons I put this question in here is
01:35:01 ◼ ► In recent years because I have the I have a non Apple version of Java at work because I actually needed it for work many many
01:35:08 ◼ ► Years ago right in recent years the current owners of Java. I think it's Oracle, right?
01:35:29 ◼ ► It doesn't say to me, you know, you're you're running this version and this is a visualization version
01:35:35 ◼ ► Do you want to update or whatever like the Apple one has like skip this version remimulator install update
01:35:39 ◼ ► So this is that's you know, the regular Apple dialogue the the Oracle whatever dialogue comes up and it's some weird
01:35:54 ◼ ► But your computer is running Java, but you haven't used Java in over two years. Do you want to uninstall Java?
01:36:03 ◼ ► That's what the dialog box says. That's the first party one. Yes it the first thing it does
01:36:09 ◼ ► It says hey, it looks like you haven't used Java in a while. We recommend that you uninstall it. That's amazing unprecedented
01:36:16 ◼ ► Like even Adobe Flash didn't offer to uninstall itself. It was literally no longer supported at all, right?
01:36:28 ◼ ► I haven't used Java on my Mac for many years and the the updater knows that and it's not just like the default action
01:36:35 ◼ ► It's the first thing it wants me to do. It says you should and it like it recommends it
01:36:42 ◼ ► So anyway, my answer from Mark is if you're not using Java, even though this thing doesn't say that like
01:36:49 ◼ ► Uninstall it right like, you know go go to skip this version or whatever its problem is, right?
01:36:56 ◼ ► Those are your two choices because if it's not say you're not you it was like what if I need Java later?
01:37:03 ◼ ► But if you're not using it this dialog box doesn't say whether or not you're using it, right?
01:37:11 ◼ ► I know this is difficult with Apple stuff because they don't provide uninstallers and there's no option to uninstall on this thing
01:37:15 ◼ ► But you can again using your new Google skills that you learned how to uninstall Java from Mac OS
01:37:20 ◼ ► Right and you will find and again look at the dates and the results are you will eventually find a way to do it or?
01:37:26 ◼ ► A link to an install or Mac OS Java uninstall or Mac Java uninstall or like you'll you'll narrow down pretty quickly
01:37:32 ◼ ► Get rid of it. Don't worry if you ever need it again, like you can always reinstall it. So that's my advice
01:37:46 ◼ ► Yeah, it's not dangerous or anything like official as long as it's not actual malware. It's real Java
01:37:49 ◼ ► Java is fine. Like, you know, it's a thing. Sometimes you might need to run a Java application. It's perfectly fine
01:37:54 ◼ ► It's not you know, like I said the Oracle which is generally considered to be an evil company
01:38:06 ◼ ► You to have an old version of Java that you never use on your computer because if it suddenly becomes an avenue for an exploit
01:38:11 ◼ ► That reflects badly on Oracle I suppose so they're they're saying we the default choice should be a recommendation that you uninstall this offer
01:38:22 ◼ ► Member full Linode and maiden and thank you to our members who support us directly. You can join at ATP FM slash join
01:39:38 ◼ ► Extremely exciting to me. So and only you well, I tell you what, I am excited about this
01:39:51 ◼ ► This I'm talking years ago how that you hate you went to one like years and years and years ago and you hated it
01:39:59 ◼ ► You didn't enjoy it blah blah blah and then you told us I think I don't even think it was in the the bootleg
01:40:06 ◼ ► I think it was privately you had said hey, I'm going to this fish concert. Did you see it publicly?
01:40:10 ◼ ► I said I said it on that. I think it was the bootleg. I don't think it was in the final show
01:40:15 ◼ ► Anyway, it doesn't really matter but one way or another you said hey, I'm going to this fish concert
01:40:19 ◼ ► And I was stupefied because the last I we had spoken about it. It sounded like it was a never again sort of scenario and I
01:40:26 ◼ ► Really miss live music whether or not anyone listening agrees with my taste of music and I would assume most of you do not I
01:40:33 ◼ ► Really really love live music and and I haven't even in the before times that had been a while since I'd been to a concert
01:40:39 ◼ ► But I am I am very excited even though I'm not a particularly large fish fan. In fact, I don't particularly like fish very much
01:41:12 ◼ ► to go to one of the first fish concerts if even possibly the first one after kovat to just kind of feel that energy to kind
01:41:22 ◼ ► Figured it would be like a very culturally significant moment at least for you know for my culture as a fish fan
01:41:35 ◼ ► I think you know most of the evidence suggests an endemic future not a not, you know the end of a pandemic
01:41:48 ◼ ► We try to get shots for here and there and whatever but anyway, that's for another night
01:41:59 ◼ ► Was kind of like on the fence or whether I should go because the first scheduled concerts were just gonna be like
01:42:25 ◼ ► Which is an indoor basketball stadium and and I just I really I didn't like a lot of the environment of it
01:42:40 ◼ ► You know the I didn't have a very good, you know view of the stage or any of the screens
01:42:57 ◼ ► I don't know if this is actually for me and so I didn't go to any more shows after that but
01:43:11 ◼ ► started looking alright, what what about doing that doing one of these shows this summer and
01:43:20 ◼ ► Revamped the dates and the venues to be all outside venues and a much more of it was happening on the East Coast
01:43:30 ◼ ► I don't I don't know if I want to fly across the country to go to a basketball stadium into oh
01:43:35 ◼ ► They're playing in Atlantic City, New Jersey, which is only a couple hours drive from here on a beach
01:43:54 ◼ ► It was not me. No, it was not you. Although actually all kidding aside. I I would have like in in very different circumstances
01:44:03 ◼ ► I absolutely would have gone just to experience it as much as I joke and as much as I give you a hard time I
01:44:11 ◼ ► I bet you I would have liked it, but that's neither here nor there maybe I mean you might have had to
01:45:04 ◼ ► That that was kind of a funny detail like it was so it there was so much smoke that like I was so I
01:45:18 ◼ ► You could spend a little bit more on the ticket and you had like a little tent that you could watch it from I kind of
01:45:22 ◼ ► Off to the side, but still pretty close had like, you know much easier access to the bathrooms
01:45:29 ◼ ► So other good thing about this was that it was less densely packed like in the general admission, you know giant beach area
01:45:36 ◼ ► Everyone's standing pretty close together and you know in part to minimize COVID risk and in part just I'm a boring old adult
01:45:42 ◼ ► I wanted that I wanted the more like, you know spread out, you know boring adult version
01:45:56 ◼ ► My scene as the boring old person and I was not the oldest person in the VIP section by a mile
01:46:11 ◼ ► obviously, you know the all the massive clouds of smoke were funny and it was it was interesting noting how like
01:46:32 ◼ ► Certain bands they're known for having like really rowdy crowds that you know might have a lot of violence problems
01:46:37 ◼ ► You need like more security to you know, to keep everything safe fish is not one of those bands
01:46:45 ◼ ► I noticed like like when when people would like walk by you and like bump into you they'd be like, oh, I'm so sorry
01:46:51 ◼ ► Like they're hey, man. I'm so sorry. Like they were so chill like nobody was like getting all agro or upset
01:47:14 ◼ ► If you'll permit me, you know, you guys each have feelings podcasts. I don't so I'm gonna
01:47:20 ◼ ► This is gonna have to go here top four. That's not a feelings podcast your feelings about pop-tarts
01:47:33 ◼ ► I know we make fun of my liking of fish on the show because it's funny and I and I get that but it is
01:47:48 ◼ ► Do does anybody think that the thing you like is normal, you know, like and I'm sure you know
01:47:52 ◼ ► Many of many of us out there being computer nerds especially growing up, you know in earlier decades as computer nerds
01:48:00 ◼ ► When the thing that you're into or that you identify with or that resonates with you when everyone else thinks that's weird
01:48:13 ◼ ► That that weighs on someone, you know, it's it's a significant thing when your own wife can't tolerate the music. Yeah, right. She can't
01:48:33 ◼ ► My music that normally I have to confine to headphones because it's too embarrassing and everyone else thinks it's too weird
01:48:44 ◼ ► This giant public area in this pretty big city full of tons of people many of which were at the concert
01:49:13 ◼ ► And then finally I had this moment where you know again, I think many of our audience can probably relate to
01:49:30 ◼ ► Yeah, I'm between you know programmers and computer nerds and people who don't feel comfortable dancing very much
01:49:43 ◼ ► Hesitate to go to concerts is that I don't really know what to do when I'm at a concert because I can't dance
01:49:54 ◼ ► You know of like trying to like being pressured to do something and being the weird guy just standing there or like, you know
01:50:03 ◼ ► So that was I was concerned a little bit about that going into this so, you know about about halfway through the concert
01:50:13 ◼ ► Had been moving slightly in my incredibly awkward nerdy way to this music. That is very hard to dance to
01:50:35 ◼ ► Exactly as weird and awkward and bad at this as I was and it just is an incredible feeling to feel
01:50:43 ◼ ► Normal it like in this way that you always thought you were weird to have a place where you can feel normal
01:51:34 ◼ ► panning across the crowd for my from my vantage point just like I just want to say like what the stage setup was now you've kind
01:51:40 ◼ ► Of described it and throw a couple on the slack so I can see yeah, let me see I will but yeah
01:51:44 ◼ ► It's like the VIP tent was kind of like it was like it was near the front but off to the side
01:51:54 ◼ ► Like I was basically sitting at the top of a staircase that that would brings you like from the VIP platform
01:51:59 ◼ ► Which is like a few feet up down and so I was looking over the crowd by a few feet instead of being down
01:52:08 ◼ ► I was gonna use the analogy that like what you're describing is kind of like going to Macworld Expo back before back when Apple was
01:52:14 ◼ ► Doomed right because you'd finally find people who like the weird computer you did but someone in the chat an even better example
01:52:19 ◼ ► They even better example because even more narrow interest they described it as being kind of like going to an ATP live show
01:52:26 ◼ ► Weird podcast where they talk about technology and complain about Apple for two hours every week and
01:52:32 ◼ ► You're like the only person in your entire group of friends who even knows this podcast exists
01:52:40 ◼ ► WWC and they'll suddenly you're a bunch of nerds who are into the same thing with you and then you go to the ATP live show
01:52:44 ◼ ► Add WWDC and now you're with the tiny subset of a subset of a subset of a people who actually like this weird podcast
01:53:15 ◼ ► But I get the same net joy like my joy comes from different places is a better way of phrasing it
01:53:21 ◼ ► my joy comes from different places, but I have that unbelievable joy when I go to a concert of
01:53:28 ◼ ► Almost anything even shows where I'm only mildly interested in the the artists that's performing
01:53:38 ◼ ► I think partly because I am so incredibly inept at performing anything that even vaguely resembles music
01:53:58 ◼ ► That feeling of we're all in this together in the best possible way and we're all having fun together
01:54:04 ◼ ► And yeah, you know like the only time you'll find me dancing is at a concert or if I've had way too much to drink
01:54:16 ◼ ► Your feeling and then the joy that's exuding from you is so much the way I feel and I'm so very
01:54:32 ◼ ► Think I'm gonna keep a much closer look on like where they are performing like what kind of venue are they performing at?
01:54:44 ◼ ► I've never seen a concert on a beach before this so like that's it really is quite something to see I
01:54:49 ◼ ► would like to go maybe once a year once every couple of years if they are playing at a really nice venue and
01:54:55 ◼ ► especially if they do this is one of those like VIP areas again because that that greatly added to the
01:55:15 ◼ ► It's really it's a very different experience than than what concerts usually are for most people
01:55:28 ◼ ► but if they offer this kind of thing again, I would jump on it and especially in a venue like this where it's
01:55:33 ◼ ► It's easy for me to get in and out of it and you know, like travel time isn't too bad and it's a beautiful place
01:55:39 ◼ ► You know with a nice outdoor, you know scenario, I would I would definitely jump on that in the future
01:56:02 ◼ ► so it's all these like fish fan forums and stuff that you get all these results from speaking of googling for answers and
01:56:07 ◼ ► And one guy was complaining he was asking like, you know, hey, how do you how do you guys go to the bathroom at the shows?
01:56:27 ◼ ► I don't think that works for pee. Well as opposed to drinking though, like, you know, if you're drinking a lot then
01:56:34 ◼ ► Yeah, well like I said, I'm very glad that you got the out that you'd had the opportunity that you did it
01:56:46 ◼ ► COVID ever gets the point that we're okay with it and if there's ever a time that there that fish is somewhere
01:56:51 ◼ ► You know in between us I would sir I would genuinely entertain making a trip meeting up with you and going just to experience it
01:56:57 ◼ ► because I know when I see a Dave Matthews concert, which I haven't done in a couple years the the
01:57:18 ◼ ► What's allowed in what kind of bag you can bring in and stuff like that. There's a whole section of it
01:57:22 ◼ ► That's like, you know, don't you know, no no outside alcohol being able to brought in no illicit substances
01:57:27 ◼ ► And it's like okay fish is a lot of drug culture among the audience, especially like they're obviously
01:57:35 ◼ ► And and I think that's kind of like a wink-a-mink another thing, but then I realized afterwards like wait a minute
01:57:39 ◼ ► Weeds legal in New Jersey. So that's not an illicit substance in this venue actually Marco everything is legal in New Jersey
01:57:53 ◼ ► Nobody would really care but here they especially didn't care and I think that's why it was so incredibly like
01:57:59 ◼ ► Everyone just massive cloud of smoke above the whole time. Oh man. So for what it's worth
01:58:06 ◼ ► We I thought we were gonna talk about this last week. We didn't end up having the chance but I
01:58:15 ◼ ► the setlist from the most recent Dave Matthews concert for which I could find the time that each song took and I
01:58:31 ◼ ► I computed the average length of a song at your fish concert versus a mostly arbitrary but also
01:58:38 ◼ ► Recent Dave Matthews concert would you like to wager a guess either of those numbers or perhaps the difference between them? I
01:58:45 ◼ ► Mean to be fair, I don't know how much the length of songs matters because it's like well, you know
01:58:55 ◼ ► You know in certain ways like there are breaks but sometimes songs bleed into each other or they kind of like call back to earlier
01:59:01 ◼ ► Songs so I think what matters most is like how long is the concert in total in this case?
01:59:07 ◼ ► So that's I think that's it's less about song boundaries. However to actually play along with your game. I'm going to
01:59:23 ◼ ► but I'm gonna guess the average for this show for fish was probably something along the lines of like
01:59:28 ◼ ► Seven or eight minutes and I'm guessing the average for Dave Matthews is probably about five minutes the longest
01:59:42 ◼ ► The longest performance or the longest song was 17 minutes 55 seconds total time for the entire Dave Matthews show 2 hours 49 minutes
01:59:50 ◼ ► 46 seconds to come back to my actual question in your guesses. You said what 7 or 8 for fish was your guess?
01:59:59 ◼ ► So I will give you full credit for that even though you were a minute off. I still count it
02:00:02 ◼ ► However, your guess of five minutes for Dave Matthews is is pretty wrong eight minutes for Dave Matthews
02:00:09 ◼ ► So a difference of only about a minute it was eight point nine seven versus eight point nine
02:00:20 ◼ ► I would have figured it would have been like 15 20 minutes for fish and like 10 ish for less than 10 for Dave and
02:00:33 ◼ ► So I think what we're learning here is that you don't have any right to make long song jokes anymore
02:01:06 ◼ ► Yeah, fish should have they might be Giants open for them and just do like they're super short songs to pull down the average
02:01:12 ◼ ► There's never an opening band for fish anymore not there hasn't been for a very long time in part
02:01:30 ◼ ► A lot of growing up in the 90s you see a lot of these like, you know 90s like everything sucks
02:01:40 ◼ ► arrogant rock star culture of like you'd have the opening band they would start late and then you'd be this long way and like the
02:01:50 ◼ ► would start even later and you're just waiting and they're just making you wait and you're just like you feel like they're being jerky
02:01:55 ◼ ► I'm making you wait all this time and they're trying to be cool and it's like no you're just being a jerk
02:02:02 ◼ ► I'm just saying like we saw it a lot now, you know, cuz that's when we that's when Casey and I grew up
02:02:06 ◼ ► And so, you know fish has none of that attitude. There's none of that like, you know, we're cool
02:02:21 ◼ ► and so they don't have opening bands because they want to cram in as much music as possible and and they're limited by like how
02:02:30 ◼ ► They just want to cram stuff in so they show up on time and they give you a three hours of music
02:02:34 ◼ ► Like there's there's like a 15-minute set break in the middle. Everyone takes a break goes to the bathroom, whatever, you know
02:02:40 ◼ ► like it's a ton of music and this is and and I just I love that they just show up on time every time like
02:02:52 ◼ ► But somehow they're selling out stadiums and beaches for three days in a row in the same city all the time
02:03:00 ◼ ► Where are all these people in the rest of life? Like when I'm you know in all these rooms