429: Digital Speedo


00:00:00   Today is a very big day for me because I am, as of what, six o'clock this evening,

00:00:05   I am officially vaccinated because two weeks ago at about 6-6 30 was when I got my second shot of Moderna. And so I am

00:00:13   ready to party, except not really. I haven't changed anything and don't really plan on changing much,

00:00:18   but nevertheless at least I can walk around without fear of catching something that will make me dead. So I'm very excited about that. Yeah, congratulations.

00:00:25   It'll be interesting to see like how we all like slowly warm back up to things. Like I think I think you know

00:00:33   some people are you know, some people never stop doing anything. Some people are gonna, you know, jump right into it the second

00:00:39   they're allowed to. I think a lot of people are gonna have a much slower ramp back to like, you know, quote normal or at least like, you know, quote

00:00:46   unrestricted behavior.

00:00:48   Like it's really like so today literally just today

00:00:51   I was waiting outside my school to pick up my kid and I heard from one of the residents that the town

00:00:57   has officially dropped the outdoor mask mandate.

00:01:00   And I mean first of all, I you know, don't know if I should verify that I probably should.

00:01:05   But also like I thought okay. Well, should I take my mask off? Like I

00:01:10   in theory I'd want to but like how many people around town

00:01:15   know that they've dropped the mask mandate.

00:01:18   Like am I gonna appear like a jerk if I and even though you know, there's I mean the president

00:01:24   and that's that's a phrase that we can now respect again

00:01:27   said, you know, basically as you know that we don't need to really be wearing masks outside as much anymore.

00:01:32   You know except in certain circumstances, but for the most part like in most circumstances

00:01:36   we don't really need to be doing that but like it still seems like I don't know if I I don't know if I'm comfortable

00:01:41   I'm comfortable that I'm no longer at risk, you know

00:01:45   even though I'm not I still have one more week before my two-week notice after my vaccine is up

00:01:50   but I'm also confident that you know the risk of outdoor transmission that we now know especially in a

00:01:56   place full of windy fresh air like here is extremely low

00:02:00   but like when will I feel comfortable

00:02:03   feeling okay being seen not wearing a mask by other people right that that's gonna be that's a tricky thing and like

00:02:11   and I wouldn't judge anyone else for their choice now because you know now now now that it's like pretty much truly optional for most for

00:02:19   most conditions outside I'm saying I don't care if somebody wears it or not anymore

00:02:23   but I wouldn't want to appear like one of those like anti-masker people in general.

00:02:29   The problem you're having is your red computer's hat all over again because

00:02:33   by not putting a mask on depending on where you are and what you're doing and who you're around

00:02:39   that kind of implies a certain set of politics that I'm pretty darn confident

00:02:46   you don't want to imply. A degree of redness, would you say? A degree of redness. Mm-hmm. So yeah, so I totally understand

00:02:52   I don't know for me, you know as I think I might have said on the show and certainly I said on analog

00:02:57   you know, the math is a little weird for me because

00:03:00   you know what with the kids being so young

00:03:02   they're not going to be offered a vaccine anytime soon.

00:03:06   There was actually rumblings that I saw in the last 24 hours that Pfizer may ask for two through twelve years old in

00:03:13   September or something like that. I think that's right. Oh, wow. Which would be great for my family

00:03:18   but because we have such small kids and because I haven't seen enough evidence that you know, once you're vaccinated you really don't like

00:03:25   emit the virus

00:03:27   enough to worry about it. I think that is what people are guessing but no I haven't seen like, you know

00:03:32   real good evidence from it. So anyway, so because of that

00:03:35   I don't think my world is going to change that much.

00:03:38   I perhaps won't be allergic to the indoors as I like to joke anymore, but I certainly don't plan on loitering indoors.

00:03:44   You know, you know as a silly example

00:03:46   I used to love going to the library to do work and I don't plan on picking that up again anytime soon. Like I might go

00:03:53   outdoors somewhere to do work, you know

00:03:55   but I don't plan on going indoors to just sit for hours and do work like I used to in the before times.

00:04:00   But everyone everyone has their own thresholds, right? And at least

00:04:04   what gives me incredible joy, no sarcasm intended, is that

00:04:08   you know at least for the three of us and our families

00:04:11   we are very very close to being at the point that we get to make these decisions again rather than

00:04:16   feeling like those decisions were made for us. So that's super great.

00:04:21   And Marco you said you got yours what a week ago Tuesday. Is that right? Your second shot?

00:04:26   Yeah, so by the time we record next you will be vaccinated and John

00:04:29   I know you got your first but I don't recall you haven't gotten your second yet?

00:04:32   I got my second this morning.

00:04:34   Oh excellent!

00:04:35   In the grand tradition of all ATP hosts apparently deciding to get vaccinated on the night we record, here I am.

00:04:41   Delightful. All right. How you feeling? I mean my arm hurts my

00:04:46   muscles in the back of my neck are a little stiff. I have a mild headache, but you know, like I

00:04:52   can't complain. It's like nothing right? I mean, maybe you'll get worse tonight or something, but so far it's fine.

00:04:58   Yeah, I feel like I had it pretty easy

00:05:00   like, you know, I mean the hive issue predated the shot. By the way, I fixed the hives.

00:05:04   Well, they fixed themselves. I'll get to that in a second.

00:05:06   But yeah, my you know, we had Pfizer here and I basically had, Tiff and I both had the day after we were just very tired.

00:05:14   But after that then it was fine.

00:05:16   Yeah, and the hives turned out. So I'll never actually know because it could have been my illegal cold that I mentioned last time

00:05:22   because the cold symptoms went away like at the same time that the hive stopped.

00:05:28   I ended up having like four or five nights of them. But

00:05:30   it also the onset and then

00:05:34   offset of the hives. What's the corresponding word for when the symptoms go away?

00:05:40   Anyway,

00:05:42   it corresponded very strongly to when we had

00:05:46   Adam's birthday balloons in the house. Now normally I don't have issues with like latex or anything like that.

00:05:52   That might cause, you know, that might be related to balloons. But

00:05:55   these balloons, there were two things about them. Number one, I blew up like half of them. Like Tiff and I set up one night,

00:06:00   blew up the balloons ourselves and there were probably

00:06:02   50 or 100 balloons in here. There were a lot. And they were really cheap Amazon balloons and they kind of smelled a little funny.

00:06:08   So I'm wondering if there might have been like some weird chemical in or on them that I was reacting to.

00:06:14   And the hive started that night that we blew them all up and then they went away

00:06:19   after we popped them all and threw them away.

00:06:21   Huh, that's wild.

00:06:22   So it's very like... As I said when you discussed this earlier that I really like I know I know you don't want to do this

00:06:28   but like you can find the answer. Just get the balloons again like for science.

00:06:33   No, like

00:06:36   because now you're just like maybe it was the balloons. Maybe it wasn't. Oh, they smelled funny.

00:06:40   Okay, fine. But we can know this is knowable.

00:06:44   You can't catch the cold again, but you can get the balloons again and then we can know for sure.

00:06:48   Just get one balloon. Just just like rub it on your arm. I don't know.

00:06:52   Well, I don't know if one balloon would do it. I don't know.

00:06:54   Well, then you're just gonna have to blow up 50 balloons again.

00:06:57   But just think just think of how the frontiers of science that your personal science that you would be probing you realize please for now

00:07:04   you're just gonna be mystery.

00:07:05   It's like maybe all balloons are a threat to me, but you can know this answer.

00:07:09   But also like we have like I mean we are a balloon family.

00:07:12   We have balloons in the house very frequently and often in large numbers like any birthday any occasion

00:07:18   there's balloons in our house. I've never had a problem.

00:07:20   That's why I think like I don't think it's like all latex or something like that.

00:07:23   It's probably like something that was specific to these balloons that that was a problem or maybe just how much you know that I was blowing them up.

00:07:30   You can get these you can get these balloons again.

00:07:33   Can I? I mean who knows like on Amazon stuff you never know. Can you get the same thing twice? Sometimes.

00:07:38   What about your Bell?

00:07:40   Yeah, right.

00:07:40   Yeah, that's that's that's the whole mystery of Amazon when you order ostensibly the same product.

00:07:45   Maybe they're shelves all together and you have no idea which one you're getting.

00:07:47   But if they if you if they look the same and they have that same funny smell then you would know.

00:07:52   And knowing is half the battle.

00:07:54   The other half is getting to the emergency room fast enough if it turns out you're allergic.

00:07:58   Yeah, right. Thanks a lot. Yeah.

00:07:59   That's why they do those challenges like the doctor's office.

00:08:03   It's like it you should know what you're allergic to but you can say you go to the doctor and they give the little pinprick with

00:08:07   like, you know, three molecules of shrimp or something to find out if you're allergic, you know.

00:08:10   Yeah, they don't do it when you live on an island with no hospitals on.

00:08:13   I know but you can bring the balloons to the doctor and say hey doc am I allergic to these?

00:08:17   So moving right along we should make a few notes about the store.

00:08:26   Wait, what store you ask? Well, guess what? It's the ATP store, which is back.

00:08:30   It'll be here through the weekend after this episode comes out and up until the following weekend. So until May

00:08:38   14th that is when the store closes.

00:08:41   To recap we have all sorts of fun stuff for you this year. We don't have a flamethrower yet.

00:08:47   We're working on it, but we do have the new M1 shirt in both colorful and monochrome editions.

00:08:53   To reiterate the colorful one is darned expensive, but I assure you believe it or not

00:08:59   we're making like no money on it because it's just expensive to print on both sides in a million colors.

00:09:03   The monochrome one is a little less expensive and also a little less colorful.

00:09:07   We also have the ATP performance shirt, which is a moisture wicking, you know,

00:09:10   exercise kind of shirt. The ATP pint glass, which we're going to talk about a little more in a second,

00:09:14   and of course the classic ATP logo shirt and pin. All of these are available at a store near your

00:09:21   nearest web browser. Anyway, the ATP pint glass is dishwasher safe because it is engraved or etched.

00:09:28   What's the word I'm looking for? Is it etched? Okay, thank you. It is dishwasher safe.

00:09:32   So unlike the mugs where it was, you know, paint on the outside of the mugs, this is etched so it shouldn't be a problem.

00:09:38   And also we need to talk a little bit about a little wonkiness that happened, especially in the first day or so of the store.

00:09:45   And then some of that wonkiness is actually persisting. So here's the thing.

00:09:49   Cotton Bureau does all of our,

00:09:51   you know,

00:09:52   fulfillment and all that and they print the shirts for us and they do fulfillment for the glasses and the pins and everything.

00:09:57   We love them. They're very reliable, very easy to work with. They're great over there.

00:10:00   The shipping costs, however, might be a little wonky. So COVID has made international shipping in particular a mess.

00:10:08   Now, those of you who have ordered from us in the past internationally, I say without hyperbole and without sarcasm, like I know it's been

00:10:14   expensive, like really expensive and I'm genuinely honestly sorry for that.

00:10:20   Unfortunately, there's not a lot we can do about it. We've used other printers in the past that have had

00:10:25   like offices or manufacturing plants in Europe and it's been a real mess, like a real mess.

00:10:32   And it stinks that these are so expensive to ship.

00:10:34   I totally get that and if it's too much money for you or you just don't think it's worth it,

00:10:39   totally understand. You can still throw us money by going to ATP.FM/join, but you don't have to do that either.

00:10:45   There's a new shipping program that Cotton Bureau is using for overseas stuff.

00:10:50   It is faster and more reliable, but hey, guess what? That means it's more expensive.

00:10:54   So again, I totally understand that it is expensive and it's tough and I am genuinely,

00:11:02   we are genuinely sorry about that. No, just you. Additionally, it's all of us.

00:11:06   Yeah, it's just I'm the only one that's sorry, the other two don't care.

00:11:09   It's all your fault, first of all.

00:11:11   The entire world of global shipping and customs and VAT and everything else is all Casey's fault.

00:11:16   And he exclusively is very sorry for it. Yep. That's, you got it. That's exactly right.

00:11:21   Additionally, there was some wonkiness early on, particularly with the performance tea.

00:11:27   The shipping, I guess some metadata was a little askew within Cotton Bureau's own systems and so the shipping was way more expensive,

00:11:33   particularly with the performance tea than it was intended to be. If you ordered the performance tea already and you feel like, yeah,

00:11:40   my shipping was too much money. Well, either that's how much it costs or if you were afflicted by this particular

00:11:46   wonkiness, when the sale actually goes through, because remember that that's Kickstarter style,

00:11:52   when the sale actually goes through, you will get the correct pricing when your credit card is charged.

00:11:57   And then if you are seeing ridiculous shipping even for domestic addresses,

00:12:03   so there's a couple of things that could be going on here. First of all, the pint glasses ship priority mail,

00:12:07   so you might want to think about putting the pint glasses in a separate order or at least

00:12:11   trying and seeing if that makes a difference. And then if you're seeing something wherein the shipping is still bananas,

00:12:19   go ahead and give Cotton Bureau a holler. They're really responsive on Twitter or even better, support@cottonbureau.com.

00:12:25   We'll have a link to that in the show notes. They're really, really great. We love Cotton Bureau, despite what it may sound,

00:12:31   we love Cotton Bureau. They've been great to us over the years, so much better than other people we've used.

00:12:36   So again, on behalf of all three of us,

00:12:38   I apologize for my role in blocking the Suez Canal and for escalating the cost of international shipping everywhere,

00:12:44   but we are all very sorry. The other thing I'll add is sometimes people try to order and like the website tells them,

00:12:51   "Oh, we can't ship it to you because it can't make sense of your address in some way."

00:12:55   Sometimes that's because Cotton Bureau doesn't ship to your country, which is a bummer, but oh well.

00:12:59   But sometimes it's because it does ship, like you live in like Canada or something, and it's like, "Oh, we can't ship to you."

00:13:05   And that's not right. So it's,

00:13:07   you contact Cotton Bureau and say, "Hey, here's what my actual address is.

00:13:11   What do I have to do to make it so that this is understood by your system?"

00:13:16   And so most of the time you can get through that, so keep drawing.

00:13:19   And then the other product bit of follow-up I have is,

00:13:22   Casey ran through all the products, and he mentioned the last one, the pins, which are basically, I guess, our version of the HomePod,

00:13:29   where we manufactured them twice.

00:13:32   We manufactured the pins once and we sold out of all of them, because the pins are different.

00:13:37   We have to buy them all up front.

00:13:39   It's not like the print-on-demand shirts. The pins are, some things in Cotton Bureau are stock and some of them are print-on-demand,

00:13:44   but the pins were like, "Hey, tell us how much you want to order, pay for them all up front," and then we sell them.

00:13:49   So we did that, we bought a bunch of pins, we sold them, and we're like, "Great, let's do that again."

00:13:53   We bought a bunch of pins, and we've been selling that same batch of pins for what, two and a half years?

00:13:57   Three years?

00:13:58   It's just, we cannot get rid of these pins, and it's fine, like it's not a big deal. They're tiny,

00:14:04   they don't take up a lot of room in the warehouse or whatever, right? But I think,

00:14:08   in this particular sale, we will probably run out of pins.

00:14:12   So, if for some reason in the past three years you've been like, "I'd like a pin,

00:14:17   but not that much," if you want one, you should buy one now, because the odds of us ordering more of these pins is very low.

00:14:23   Yes, apparently nobody wants them anymore.

00:14:25   In fact, I had to,

00:14:28   emailed Cotton Bureau and said, "How many pins do we have?" Because I thought, like when the numbers ticked over,

00:14:33   I'm like, "That's all the pins, right?" But then it kept going up.

00:14:36   I'm like, "It's just like a bottomless pit of pins? How many pins are actually left?" And they told me,

00:14:40   there was like, I think we were down to like 10 pins or something like that.

00:14:44   I forget how many it was, because they're like, "Here's," because they reserve extras too, for like, you know,

00:14:48   if your pin gets damaged, they want to replace it or whatever. So there is a tiny amount of extras

00:14:52   they reserve, but I think it is conceivable that we could run out of pins. If we don't run out of pins in the sale,

00:14:58   next sale, the first three people to buy pins are gonna sell it out. So, if you want a pin, buy a pin. If not,

00:15:05   good riddance to pins.

00:15:07   Wow. I like the pins. I think it's a cool pin. I don't understand why we're doing something like that.

00:15:11   But you know, anyway, this is probably the last you're gonna be seeing of pins for a while. At least for a while, that's right.

00:15:16   Alright, so again, ATP.fm/store. Don't be that person tweeting me on the day after the sale ends.

00:15:24   Sometimes literally minutes after the sale ends. Of course, a lot of people queue it up now because I make such a big deal out of it.

00:15:29   But then there's that person that you can tell they ain't messing around. They genuinely missed it.

00:15:33   So, if you're driving, pull over. If you're walking, pull to the side. Do what you need to do.

00:15:37   ATP.fm/store or alternatively ATP.fm/join or just tell someone you love about how much you love the show. That works, too.

00:15:44   Moving right along, my fans. I had talked, this is not, you know, the people. This is the spinning kind of fan.

00:15:51   The last week we talked about

00:15:55   these RF controlled fans that I have and I didn't know how to make them work with HomeKit.

00:16:01   Now, I don't recall where I was in the journey specifically with hacks for ways to fix this.

00:16:07   But a lot of people recommended Bond and I'll find a link and put in the show notes.

00:16:12   James Bond?

00:16:13   James Bond. James Bond. Shaken, not stirred.

00:16:15   Bond Home or something like that, which is a

00:16:19   box that basically will

00:16:21   interface with either RF or IR. So you could say control a TV or something like that and you can get a Homebridge

00:16:29   plugin that works with that. I do plan to try that if, if

00:16:34   my new alternative plan doesn't work.

00:16:37   And so we had to take the fans down that were in the screened-in porch for reasons that are mostly uninteresting.

00:16:43   But we had to take them down for a little bit and I noticed that there is the RF

00:16:49   controller that's in the wall, you know, where any standard light switch or fan switch would be. And then there's an RF like receiver

00:16:56   not literally in the fan, but like, you know, sitting where the fan is mounted. And

00:17:00   basically the wires go from the wall unit to the receiver and then from the receiver to the fan.

00:17:05   Well, as it turns out, I'm almost positive that the wires within the wall, which I haven't opened up yet, or you know,

00:17:12   behind the plate, I mean, those wires, I believe, match the wires going into the fan. So

00:17:17   my theory and my hope is that if I just take out this RF box, which is, you know,

00:17:23   that's by design, like it's not permanently attached or anything like that. It's, in fact,

00:17:27   it comes detached. If I take away that RF box and then put in my Lutron Caseta fan switches, I

00:17:33   think, I think that might work. So that's what I'm going to try. I probably won't be able to for another week,

00:17:40   maybe two, for again, uninteresting reasons. But that's the theory. And if that doesn't work, I'm gonna try this Bond, Bond, Bond,

00:17:46   I forget, James Bond, whatever it's called. I'll put a link in the show notes.

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00:19:47   Speaking of spending money, ATP purchases. So we talked about AirTags and we're gonna talk a little more about that later.

00:19:57   I ordered my Apple TV and after all my fetching, I actually got the big boy.

00:20:01   I got the 64 gig and mostly because people said, "Well, what about those screensavers?" And I'm a sucker for the screensavers.

00:20:07   So I did get the big boy and it will be delivered at the end of the month and oh,

00:20:11   man, am I excited for it. I am super stoked.

00:20:14   Marco, I suspect you did not buy any TVs, but did you buy any remotes?

00:20:19   I'm sad to say that I bought both. You bought a TV too? Yeah.

00:20:24   You sucker. You're as bad as I am. And I even bought the big one for the exact same damn reason.

00:20:30   I infected both of you with this virus. When else can you double the storage of an Apple product for $20?

00:20:36   You did. As I said, you can't afford not to buy the big one.

00:20:39   Yeah, I did. So yeah, so my plan was like, you know, but right now in my house

00:20:46   I have a 4k on the upstairs TV and I have the old HD model on the downstairs TV.

00:20:52   Both TVs are actually 4k TVs. So I got one new Apple TV.

00:20:58   I will demote the previous Apple TV 4k to the other TV that had the HD model previously.

00:21:03   So I'm basically, you know, moving it down the line.

00:21:06   And the new one, I did indeed get the stupid 64 gig for 20 stupid dollars more

00:21:11   because the stupid screensavers are actually like one of my favorite things about the Apple TV.

00:21:15   They really are. And if that increases the space to cache screensavers and therefore, you know,

00:21:21   maybe includes more of them in my regular rotation than otherwise would have, that alone is worth it to me?

00:21:27   But it doesn't. I mean, we were joking about this yesterday, but we did joke.

00:21:30   Like we all have gigabit connections to our house. Like the extra storage space is not, I'm gonna say right now,

00:21:36   is not going to let you access more screensavers. It's not going to increase things in the rotation.

00:21:41   They just, they can just stream. You have a gigabit connection, but you do have more space. So there's that.

00:21:46   Yeah, so just in case it ever becomes useful. Yeah, stupid 20 bucks. All right, fine.

00:21:51   So anyway, and I also, I got a

00:21:54   additional remote of the new remote type for the downstairs TV.

00:21:59   So even though I'm not giving it the new model, I'm gonna have that good remote on both TVs, allegedly.

00:22:06   I hope it's actually good.

00:22:07   I mean, that's one thing. Like none of us have actually tried it yet. Like no one's reviewed the remote yet.

00:22:11   We don't actually know if it actually is good. Can it be worse though, really? Like it's hard, really, really hard to make it worse.

00:22:17   That's fair. Like if there are certain aspects of it that we know immediately are better. Hey, it's not symmetrical.

00:22:22   It's easier to know which way is up

00:22:24   without looking at it or with looking at it for that matter. And it is thicker.

00:22:27   And it has a curved bottom and the entire top of it is in a touch surface.

00:22:31   And these are the type of things that are certainly improvements.

00:22:34   Now above and beyond that, maybe it also has its own problems or whatever. You're right that we don't know.

00:22:39   But I think it's a pretty safe bet that if you really, really hate the current remote, this one

00:22:43   is almost certainly going to be somewhat of an upgrade. Yeah.

00:22:47   Now I did

00:22:50   also buy AirTags.

00:22:52   Excuse me. I bought a four-pack of AirTag. That is apparently how it is labeled.

00:22:57   They are interesting.

00:22:59   As I bought them and you know, I had this four-pack. Great. Let me open this up. Activate the tag and

00:23:07   you know, I thought okay, I'll put one in my backpack. Maybe that sounds good. But the main thing I wanted to put it on

00:23:13   were our primary bikes in the family and the wagon that we bring to and from the boat for like freight hauling.

00:23:20   Because these are things that we will often leave unattended in town for a while and unlocked two things.

00:23:26   And so I figured it could be, you know, a measure of kind of casual

00:23:30   theft prevention or whatever.

00:23:32   And sometimes it's nice to know like, you know, did my kid ride his bike,

00:23:38   you know, from the playground to a nearby friend's house?

00:23:40   That way I can locate my kid if he doesn't have his Apple Watch on. So I figured, you know,

00:23:45   we should all have them on our bikes and that's three bikes and one wagon. Perfect. Okay.

00:23:49   So I get my AirTag four-pack and

00:23:53   great, these nice little round beautiful little objects.

00:23:57   How do I attach these to

00:24:00   anything? Have you considered a $450 piece of leather?

00:24:06   The AirTags are

00:24:09   yet another like

00:24:12   wonderful example of

00:24:14   Apple's design failure actually of like designing an object to be beautiful at the

00:24:21   significant expense of actual usability.

00:24:24   Because what you need with an AirTag,

00:24:27   and this might be intentional, you need to attach this to something in almost every case.

00:24:34   Like I could tuck one into a pocket in my backpack without modifying anything. Okay, great.

00:24:40   But literally anything else I would use it for, I need to attach it somehow. Now, you know, I could just use a

00:24:46   roll of electrical tape.

00:24:48   That's one option.

00:24:50   That doesn't work for certain things like, you know, we had friends ask like, you know,

00:24:54   could I put one on my dog collar in case my dog gets lost or something like that?

00:24:57   Well, no, you can't actually.

00:24:59   Unless you go buy something else.

00:25:03   And this is where they get you.

00:25:06   So if you'll notice, if you go to Apple's site or, you know, we'll stick with Apple for now.

00:25:13   We'll cover Amazon in a second. But like you go to Apple's site, great. You can buy the AirTag for $25 to $30.

00:25:20   But you're gonna need something else with almost every single AirTag you buy.

00:25:26   And the options that Apple sells to hold your AirTag are all,

00:25:31   A. Pretty bulky and B. You know, they're all like $15 and up more, you know,

00:25:37   a lot of them are closer to $20, $30, $40.

00:25:39   So it seems like Apple designed these in order to sell more accessories besides just them.

00:25:48   Like I think this is just like accessory revenue generation here.

00:25:52   And if they would have designed it with a simple key ring hole on one side,

00:25:57   which is how like tile and everything else, those are all designed that way.

00:26:00   Then many of us could just stick a cheap hardware store, you know, key ring thing through it

00:26:07   and attach it to lots of different things.

00:26:09   Or if we wanted to use some other kind of, you know, silicone holder, we still could.

00:26:14   But because they designed them the way they did,

00:26:17   prioritizing like basically visual purity and possibly in an effort to increase accessory sales,

00:26:25   both of which I think are likely contributors to this design,

00:26:28   they end up being like kind of useless if you just get the AirTags.

00:26:33   Now you can go to, you know, lots of people have announced things like,

00:26:37   there's of course like a Belkin kit that Apple sells that's basically like a key ring

00:26:41   attached to a big plastic case that goes around the AirTag.

00:26:45   Okay, that's nice, you know, if you're putting it like on a big dog's collar,

00:26:48   that's probably the way to go, something like that.

00:26:49   Our friends over at, I think it was Elevation Lab announced a very similar kind of thing.

00:26:54   That's none of these things are shipping until like June.

00:26:55   But so, you know, there's products like that.

00:26:59   You can go on Amazon now and there's a million like, you know, cheap no name things

00:27:03   that are eight to $12, most of which appear that no one has actually gotten them and used them yet,

00:27:08   because they don't seem to have legitimate reviews because it just hasn't been enough time.

00:27:12   You know, the AirTags just shipped a few days ago to the first buyers.

00:27:15   So, I don't know, I'm kind of like, I'm kind of lukewarm on this like, okay, this is great.

00:27:21   This will be fun if I, or this will be useful if I ever need it.

00:27:23   But I can't imagine like a more like obtuse design than what they went with because

00:27:30   you just can't attach to anything like it's like a, you know, a UFO shaped disc with curved edges.

00:27:35   You can't strap it down like with a cable tie, like with Velcro, you can't like,

00:27:39   it just slides out. You obviously can't put a ring around it. You can't like

00:27:42   mount it into or onto anything very securely because it'll just slip out because of its shape.

00:27:47   And so like, they literally did nothing to accommodate the idea to actually attach this

00:27:54   to something. So they were, it's like the very first iPad, the first generation iPad.

00:27:58   And the only case that you could get for it was like Apple's awful, that big, like black rubbery

00:28:03   one that kind of just clamped around it on all sides. Cause the original iPad made no accommodation

00:28:08   for cases. And that's one of the things they changed with the iPad too. They added the magnetic

00:28:13   mounts on the side so you could have the smart case. Well, this has like no affordances for

00:28:19   attachment whatsoever. So you just, you're going to end up having all these like big, expensive,

00:28:26   you know, little custom mount things and, and you know, key ring straps and all these little things

00:28:32   and Apple sells a bunch of them and I'm sure, I'm sure they will. But like, then the result is

00:28:37   you put this thing, if you want to like put this on a key chain or on a dog collar or whatever it is,

00:28:41   it's just going to be, not only is it going to be bulkier and more expensive, but it's, it's going

00:28:46   to, it's just like, it's less elegant, you know, so you have this larger object than it could have

00:28:50   been if it was just a key ring. You're, the real price of it is going to be more like $50 each,

00:28:55   depending on what you, how you mount it and what products are actually available and good.

00:28:59   And it just, I just, it kind of leaves a sour taste in my mouth that this is kind of, you know,

00:29:04   for, it's one of those things that like, it looks good in pictures, but it's actually, I think,

00:29:09   a bad design. I think people will yell at us if we don't bring this up, because we haven't mentioned

00:29:15   the umpteen other times that it'll come up, but people keep thinking that the AirPods are an

00:29:19   example of my naked robotic core concept that we talked about with the iPhone and to review the

00:29:24   idea behind that with the iPhone is make the iPhone as small as possible so that you have the most,

00:29:29   give the consumer the most options in terms of how they want to deal with it. If they want the

00:29:33   smallest phone possible, then they've got it. But if they want to put a case on it, you've made the

00:29:37   inside part as small as possible so that when you do put a case on it, it doesn't get that much

00:29:41   bigger. And so you might think that given what you just said about the AirTags, oh, they're the same

00:29:46   thing. We don't even give you any case. We give you the naked robotic core and you have to dress

00:29:50   it up in these accessories. Like we don't do it. You know, it's not, there's no holes in it. It's

00:29:54   not supposed to be attached. It is literally the naked robotic core and you have to wrap it in

00:29:58   something, or you could just have it be the way it is and loosen your bag. The problem with that,

00:30:02   and the reason I think the AirTags are not a good example of naked robotic core is that as far as I

00:30:06   can tell from seeing the teardowns, I don't have these in person because I didn't buy any AirTags,

00:30:10   but as far as I've seen from like the iFixit teardowns and stuff, AirTags are not as small

00:30:16   as they can possibly be. They're much more like sort of before the iPhone, when naked robotic

00:30:21   core, like the iPhone 3G or iPhone 3GS, any, they're both the same shape, where there's a

00:30:28   curve to the plastic so that there's basically air space inside it so that it can look like,

00:30:33   you know, like, I don't know what it's looking at, what candy looks like. It's like a lozenge,

00:30:36   kind of like it has a curve to it. Like a spree, a very big spree. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know

00:30:41   that candy, but I'll take your word for it. But, but like, if this was going to be a naked robotic

00:30:45   core, it would, not that it would look more like tile, but tile and my impression is they tend to

00:30:51   pull in the edges as tight as they can. So there's no unnecessary curves or bulges for the

00:30:56   sake of aesthetics or a particular design principle. You know, it's just, it's just,

00:31:01   it's much more like the iPhone 4, let's say, where the outsides are sucked, or the, the,

00:31:07   the last good looking Mazda RX7, where the outsides are sucked in as tightly as they can possibly be

00:31:13   to the insides to give you maximum space to adorn it, if that's what you want to do. If you want it

00:31:19   to be as small as possible, hey, we've sucked it all in for you as your naked robotic core,

00:31:22   but if you want to put something in it, we've really compacted the core as much as we can so

00:31:26   that when you do put a case on it, it doesn't get too bulky. And I don't think that's what they've

00:31:30   done with this as far as I can tell. I may be wrong. Maybe there's not as much airspace in there

00:31:33   as I think, but every time I see the curves and the things you were talking about that make it

00:31:37   essentially hard to even, let's say, electrical tape something because there's no flat side,

00:31:41   really. Although you can tell me, is there one side of it kind of flat or no?

00:31:44   No, it's, it's the whole thing is like bulbous. It's all rounded. It's like,

00:31:48   they're, it's all basically convex. Yeah. All right. So that's what I'm saying. Like,

00:31:52   I think this is not, this is not a, uh, a, uh, an ideal implementation of the naked robotic core.

00:31:58   It has some aspects of it in that it's clear that they want you to put accessories on it or

00:32:02   whatever, but yeah. And so people are drilling holes in them, which is a thing that you can do,

00:32:05   but obviously there goes your waterproofing because you just drilled the hole for the

00:32:08   water to get in. And I wouldn't trust that hole to stand up over stress because,

00:32:13   you know, it's not, it's not a designed and molded and hole you've just basically,

00:32:17   you know, ruptured the structural integrity of the AirPod and now you're going to have like stress

00:32:21   cracks and everything. So I don't recommend that. Um, it makes me think though, of all the things

00:32:26   that, uh, that Apple made that don't actually have any kind of convenient attach point. I was

00:32:32   thinking of when they made a series of iPod touches that had the little pop-out, uh, anchor

00:32:37   point for a strap. Do you, maybe you don't remember that cause you weren't big into iPod touch, but I

00:32:41   was getting iPod touches and they, they had, it was like a, it was flush, but if you pressed it in,

00:32:46   it would go in a little bit and then pop out and it was like a, like a grommet. Like it was basically

00:32:51   just like a, I don't know how to describe it, like a cylinder with, with a, with a big disc on top

00:32:56   of it. And it would pop up and you would loop a strap around that. Right. Even something like

00:33:00   that as sort of an anchor point, not necessarily just, Oh, tile has a hole in there is therefore

00:33:04   Apple should have a hole in theirs. Apple could have done something more aptly to give an

00:33:08   attachment point that is more minimal than what they have. So I feel your pain in attaching things.

00:33:13   Lots of people are posting Twitter threads of like, uh, if you buy the expensive Apple case,

00:33:18   here's where it falls down because the key ring it comes with is one of those flat key rings,

00:33:23   you know, like the, there's lots of different ways you can do key rings, but one way you can do it is

00:33:27   to have kind of like a, a flattened snake that goes around in a ring and it makes it wide and

00:33:32   wider in one dimension than it is in the other and lots of keys and other things don't fit around

00:33:36   that or only fit around it one way, but then can't rotate. You know what I mean? Right. And so it

00:33:42   makes for absurd scenarios. And also if you look at the Apple cases, if you're looking at the air

00:33:47   tag head on, uh, the ring, you'd be looking at the ring like head on as well. So you'd see the

00:33:54   air tag and Apple logo and you'd see the key ring. So you could look straight through the hole,

00:33:57   but keys, a lot of keys go onto key rings the other way where the key is rotated sideways.

00:34:03   So you're looking at the side of the key and then looking through the key ring hole. I'm not

00:34:06   describing as well, but like, look at your ring of keys. If you just hold your finger with the ring

00:34:10   and let the keys dangle, usually the keys aren't facing you. They are side sideways to you, but the

00:34:16   air tag is exactly the opposite. So it doesn't even like sort of lay flat next to your other

00:34:20   keys because it insists on being, uh, you know, in the same plane as the key ring and it's the way it

00:34:26   attaches with that big strap. It doesn't let it twist at all. It's just really not particularly

00:34:31   well thought out or particularly compact. And it's also not a very good naked robotic core.

00:34:36   So maybe they'll revise it. Maybe the next one will be smaller. Uh, you know, they have,

00:34:41   they have some time to iterate on this. It definitely looks very much like the ideal use

00:34:45   case is putting in a pocket of a backpack because then you don't need anything else.

00:34:49   You don't care that it's a little bit bulky and it works fine. Um, and you mentioned people putting

00:34:54   it on their pets. I would encourage people to consider a different option if they really want

00:34:58   something they can find their pets because in my experience, when pets run away, they don't run

00:35:02   away to an area where people have iPhones, they run into the woods and there's no one with iPhones

00:35:07   in there and it's way out of you on range. So if you're trying to, Oh, my dog is lost. Hey,

00:35:11   I'll find it with the fine. My network. No, you won't. Unless it ran into a mall. Like it's like,

00:35:15   where is your dog running? Does your dog just run into crowds full of people with phones? No,

00:35:20   they always run off into the woods. They're chasing a bird. They're like, you have no idea

00:35:24   where they are. It's not, it's not the ideal thing. Even Apple says AirTag is meant to track

00:35:28   things, not people or pets. Um, if you want to track your pet, I've, because I have a pet that

00:35:34   is a, uh, a flight risk, let's say, cause, uh, she really loves, uh, birds and squirrels and other

00:35:40   things and has no idea that, uh, anything else exists when she sees them. A strong prey drive,

00:35:45   they call it. Uh, anyway, uh, there's the company I use is a whistle.com. They're not a sponsor. Um,

00:35:52   but I've used their dog GPS products for a long time. Um, the first revision was a little bit,

00:35:57   uh, the battery life wasn't that great, but the second one, the battery life is amazing.

00:36:00   It's kind of big and bulky. It's way bigger than an AirTag, but the battery last weeks

00:36:06   and it is literal GPS. So no matter where your dog goes, uh, you know, you can, it sends a signal

00:36:14   up to wherever, like, you know, you, you can find your dog basically anywhere. It's not super duper

00:36:18   great real time tracking, but you don't have to rely on your dog running near people with iPhones,

00:36:22   which is a big plus to come back around. John, I don't think you told us if you bought any

00:36:28   Apple TVs or remotes, I got a new Apple TV. Yes, of course the big one, um, for, to replace my,

00:36:36   my existing Apple TV or 4k downstairs and the, the existing Apple TV 4k will bump up to the bedroom,

00:36:42   kicking out our old Apple TV HD. And then I got a spare remote. So I don't have to use that stupid

00:36:47   serial remote ever again. So I got exactly the same stuff as Marco and I'm basically following

00:36:50   the same plan. Good deal. All right. We need to talk about FileVault performance. And, uh,

00:36:57   some people had pointed out that the SSD in computers that have the Apple T2 security chip

00:37:03   is encrypted. Uh, so you can turn on FileVault, uh, so that your Mac requires a password to

00:37:09   decrypt your data, but it's going to be encrypted no matter what. Yeah. We mentioned on the last

00:37:12   show, but it's just good. We'll link to the tech support article, you know, rather than just going

00:37:16   by what, what you've heard in our reckons last time. Oh, I think there's things with T2 or the

00:37:20   M1 do this or whatever. Here's an Apple support document that spells it out. Um, you know,

00:37:24   iPhones and iOS devices have been encrypted maybe since the beginning, but certainly for many, many,

00:37:31   many years. Right. Um, and so the M1 Macs and the Macs based on the ARM chips and the, you know,

00:37:37   iPhone-ish architecture of course do the same thing. But even before that, once the, uh, uh,

00:37:43   Macs got the T2 chip, they would basically just encrypt everything by default. Now

00:37:48   it being encrypted on the SSD is one thing. And you maybe think, well, then what is turning FileVault

00:37:54   on and off do? And as this article says, what it does is it means that to decrypt it. Now you have

00:37:59   to enter a password for one of your user accounts to decrypt it. Whereas before the decryption keys,

00:38:06   presumably are in the secure enclave and it didn't demand anything of you, right? You could just,

00:38:10   you know, it was, it was encrypted, but it didn't say, Hey, before I can even boot,

00:38:15   please enter your password. It would just pull its own password out of the secure enclave and,

00:38:19   and go to town. So, uh, this was with respect to, you know, worrying about performance.

00:38:24   You have no choice. If you have a T2 or an M1 Mac, whatever the performance hit is or isn't. And I

00:38:29   think there is basically none because it's all just done transparently and hardware at, uh,

00:38:32   at full speed. Uh, you're getting, you're paying that price no matter what. So your only choice is,

00:38:37   Hey, do I want it to require me to enter one of my passwords before it will decrypt.

00:38:42   Indeed. Then, uh, related Michael Birtle wrote that, uh, I have two Mac minis in remote locations

00:38:49   running headless. I access them via VNC over an SSH tunnel. In this setup, I need to have

00:38:55   FileVault disabled. If I perform an OS update remotely that requires a restart and FileVault

00:38:59   requires the input of a password before I'm able to connect via VNC. Just something to consider if

00:39:04   you ever plan on servicing a Mac remotely without access to a physical keyboard. A bunch of people

00:39:09   brought this in. I have this vague notion that there is some way around this somehow,

00:39:13   but I don't actually know what it is, but it seems like a lot of people have run into this problem

00:39:18   that, yeah, if you do make it require your password and then your reboot and you're not there to enter

00:39:22   your password at the point that it demands your password, it's like, it needs it to get to the

00:39:27   disc so it can boot. So if you're thinking, I'm just going to VNC in and enter my password. No,

00:39:31   you're not because the thing isn't even booted yet. Like I said, I think there might be some

00:39:34   workarounds for this somehow, but just keep it in mind. If you don't know the workarounds like I

00:39:39   don't and you enable FileVault and you want to remotely control your computer through a reboot,

00:39:44   you may have a problem. So now we turn into, please Apple, please fix my particular bug corner.

00:39:51   And this time I'm not the winner. John, what's going on with your Mac, buddy? I don't, this is,

00:39:57   I don't think that I'm not really asking them to, I mean, they should fix it if it's a thing, but

00:40:01   this is, I just thought I'd bring this up because it's interesting. It's one of the aspects of

00:40:05   owning a computer that lots of people don't own that people maybe don't think about. And I've

00:40:10   always had these really weird computers that are, you know, expensive and obscure that most people

00:40:17   don't buy and probably shouldn't buy. And so I've have experience with this, right?

00:40:21   So recently Mac OS 11.3 came out and as soon as I did the update, I started experiencing a bug on

00:40:27   my Mac. Right. And the bug was that the display would not wake from sleep. Right. And it's not

00:40:33   that the computer wouldn't wake from sleep. The display wouldn't. So, you know, I have my things,

00:40:37   some energy savers set up as like screen saver goes on after five minutes and then after 15

00:40:41   minutes, the display goes to sleep. And so when the display goes to sleep, you are seeing your

00:40:44   screen server, then all of a sudden the display turns black, right? The way it's supposed to work

00:40:47   is you come up to your computer and you whack the space bar, click the mouse button or something.

00:40:51   And the display springs back to life. Right. During this time, the computer hasn't yet fallen

00:40:55   asleep because the computer sleep timer is different and much longer. And you can confirm

00:40:59   this, you know, by just going to another Mac and SSHing in and say, yep, here I am. I'm on this

00:41:04   Mac. The Mac is totally awake. It's running. I'm SSHed into it. I can do stuff. But no matter what

00:41:09   I do, the display won't wake. I can type as much as I want on the keyboard. I can click the mouse

00:41:14   button. I can tap the power button on the computer. The display just stays asleep. And so on.

00:41:19   Something like this happens and it started happening immediately after 11.3 and has happened

00:41:23   multiple times since. I'm pretty sure it's the 11.3 update. You think, oh, this is a bug. And

00:41:29   you might be thinking, well, this happened so immediately and so many people's Macs go to sleep.

00:41:34   Surely this has been reported a thousand times already and this will be fixed quickly. But then

00:41:37   you remember nobody to a first approximation has my computer set up. Who has a Mac Pro with the

00:41:43   Pro Display XDR? Probably nobody is reporting this. In fact, for all I know, the other eight

00:41:48   people in the world who have a Mac Pro and Pro Display XDR have their display set to never sleep

00:41:53   because it's some sort of professional lab situation where it's just always being used

00:41:56   or something. Or who knows, right? But I did my duty as a good Apple reporter and I filed the

00:42:02   feedback. And what I did was like one of the times that it happened, I SSHed into the computer from

00:42:06   elsewhere and I ran a sysdiagnose and I ran a spin dump and I saved the files and then I made a

00:42:12   feedback. Number will be in the show notes, FB9095615. And I said, here's what's happening. I

00:42:18   have no idea how to reproduce it. It doesn't happen every single time, but it's happened a bunch of

00:42:22   times. I'm pretty sure it's 11.3. Here's a spin dump. Here's a sysdiagnose. Fingers crossed. But

00:42:27   all of this is just to say, if you dream of having, let's say an exotic car or a fancy

00:42:34   computer, be aware that when you have problems, A, nobody cares and B, you and only like five

00:42:40   other people in the world have even a chance of having that problem. So if you buy one of the new

00:42:44   iMacs and something like this comes out, thousands of other people are going to report it and it will

00:42:48   probably get fixed. But all I can do is just hope that it somehow magically goes away in a future

00:42:53   update. I have updated to 11.3.1 and haven't seen it happen since, but I updated like two hours ago.

00:42:59   So I don't know. Anyway, that's it. Fun times. All right. There's been an update with regard to the

00:43:07   new 13 inch iPad and the old Magic Keyboard. Jason Snell had speculated on upgrade this week or last

00:43:15   that the new iPad Pro would probably fit in the old Magic Keyboard case. It might just be a bit

00:43:21   too snug by Apple standards and turns out that he was right. And yes, you can use the new 12.9 inch

00:43:27   iPad Pro in the old Magic Keyboard. It's just that the tolerances are a little tight and it's

00:43:33   not going to be flawless and Apple isn't keen on that, but it will work. It's like when you try to

00:43:37   put on your skinny jeans after a long winter of fattening up, you can pretty much get them on and

00:43:41   snap them, but you can kind of tell it's not fitting the way it's supposed to. You know about this,

00:43:45   John? Is this something you have experience with? I do. Oh my God. How skinny are your jeans?

00:43:49   Yeah, just wait. What is it? After a certain age, you say you gain a pound a year for the

00:43:55   rest of your life? Let me introduce you to the world of stretch jeans.

00:44:00   Yeah, no, I don't have any of those yet. Oh, you're missing out.

00:44:03   I mean, not that I wear jeans anymore. Anyway, I just wear sweatpants all the

00:44:06   time, so it's not really an issue. I've been fully converted to stretch jeans.

00:44:10   I'll tell you what, that's not a sponsor, but like the banner public traveler line. Oh my God. So

00:44:17   good. Oh my word. The middle-aged men podcast, get some stretch jeans. I'm telling you, it's,

00:44:22   you feel like you're getting away with something because like they look normal. They look totally

00:44:25   normal. And you're like, I can't believe how incredibly comfortable this is. And like, cause

00:44:31   they feel almost like sweatpants, but with much more functional pockets because you don't have

00:44:35   like the phone sliding out problem that you do with sweatpants. And you can go outside and like,

00:44:39   go out places and stuff and you look normal. Speaking of Jason Snell, and speaking of being,

00:44:45   speaking of being a middle-aged man, if you're interested in the Tesla model three, then Snell

00:44:51   borrowed one. And I thought it was worth, if you're willing and interested listening to this

00:44:56   review that Jason did on upgrade plus, which is there for pay only after shows. So you will have

00:45:02   to be a member to hear it, but on episode three 51, Jason had recounted a trip from San Francisco

00:45:08   to Arizona, I think in a model three. And yeah, it was really, really interesting to hear someone

00:45:14   who is not that into cars, but very into technology talk about it. One of the most striking things that

00:45:20   he said was that he felt like he was more aware of his speed in terms of like miles per hour

00:45:27   in the Tesla, that's the model three with only the center mounted display, no, no gauge cluster of

00:45:33   any sort than he is in his old traditional minivan. And I thought that was fascinating. He was saying

00:45:38   that, you know, because on the minivan, you have to look at where the needle is and find what the

00:45:43   nearest number is, and then figure out exactly where in between the two nearest numbers are,

00:45:47   you know, to get your exact miles per hour, that it was more effort and for him to figure out his

00:45:52   speed in the minivan than just looking at this screen that's a little bit out of your direct

00:45:56   line of sight and looking in the corner to see the numeral. I've driven a model three and I did not

00:46:01   personally get this experience, but I also only have driven model threes for like 10, 15 miles at

00:46:06   a time, not 2000 or whatever it was that he did. So if you're a member of upgrade plus or whatever

00:46:12   they call their membership, I definitely suggest you try out or take a listen to episode 351 and

00:46:17   the after show from that. Sounds like it just wants a digital speedo. I mean, I remember those

00:46:23   coming out when I was a kid on like Cadillacs and stuff like, yeah, if you want to read a digital

00:46:26   watch instead of an analog one, we can put that number in front of you and it'll be much bigger

00:46:29   than it is on a corner of the model three screen. But it took me a second to realize what a digital

00:46:34   speedo meant. I got it. I also thought it was fascinating. He was saying that his wife, Lauren,

00:46:40   wears reading glasses and apparently there is no record. As far as he knew, there was no

00:46:46   affordance for increasing the size of the font and any of the display stuff on the Tesla, which was

00:46:52   not that surprising, but also deeply disappointing. Yeah, they actually, they did a software update

00:46:57   last fall. I think it was where they made the font size way too small. Like, and it was just like one

00:47:03   day I went to my car and like the PRND indicator, like a bunch of other stuff was just really tiny.

00:47:10   And it seemed like they had designed the UI for the model three and just kind of shoved it into

00:47:15   the S screen, but it was really bad. And they had to revert that. I mean, a couple of weeks later,

00:47:22   maybe, but it was, it kind of gave me a bad taste in my mouth. Like, wow, Tesla can at any time

00:47:27   make my car significantly worse if they want to, or if they accidentally do.

00:47:31   And there's not really anything I can do about that.

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00:49:09   our show. Okay, so I think it was right before we released or really recorded last episode,

00:49:21   there was quite the brouhaha about Basecamp. And oh man, there's so much here and I'm going to try

00:49:30   to figure out a way to summarize it very quickly. But to establish a little bit of like basic

00:49:37   foundation, first of all, Basecamp has sponsored in the past. They haven't sponsored terribly

00:49:43   recently and they are not currently booked to sponsor in the future. And they definitely

00:49:48   have sponsored in the past. But Basecamp is the company behind Basecamp software, as well as Hey,

00:49:55   the new new-ish email service. And about a week ago, or maybe a little more, I think it was Jason

00:50:04   Fried wrote a post on their kind of blogging platform that's powered off of Hey, saying that

00:50:10   there's going to be a new company's policy, Jason Fried being their CEO, there's new company's

00:50:15   policy saying that it will be no more societal and political discussions on our company Basecamp

00:50:19   account. It's probably worth noting here that that is not the original verbiage, but that's where it

00:50:23   got changed to. And a lot of people got really up in arms about this, which is somewhat interesting

00:50:30   because Basecamp is not a big company. It was only about 60 people, but, you know, the internet

00:50:35   needed a main character and Basecamp and Jason Fried and David Hanamatter-Hanson, they became

00:50:40   the main characters for last week. And a lot of people got really upset. And it seemed like there

00:50:46   was more to this than meets the eye. And there is so much more to this than, than I think we can

00:50:52   reasonably cover or even really reasonably summarize during the course of the show. But

00:50:57   it made all of us kind of wonder what are the bigger implications about what went on and to

00:51:06   build a little more about what went on, you know, a lot of people got really upset about this, oh,

00:51:10   no more politics at work. And I think a lot of the employees at Basecamp said, well, hold on,

00:51:14   that's not really fair. And then it came to light that a lot of the genesis of this was from a list

00:51:22   that had been started many, many years back about funny sounding names of clients of theirs. And

00:51:29   it's not terribly clear how much of that was something like Seymour Butts or how much of that

00:51:34   was something that was kind of racially motivated. But a lot of people at Basecamp got really

00:51:38   uncomfortable about it. This at the same time as while they're doing a what is it diversity

00:51:43   equality? What's DEI? I'm drawing a blank now. diversity, equity inclusion. I'm going to go.

00:51:49   There you go. Thank you. That's close. I think that's right. It's something like that. Something

00:51:52   like that. There was like a third of the company was in a DEI like committee trying to make things

00:51:57   better as this is all going on. And I think that might have been the genesis of discovering this

00:52:02   particular list. And the list was brought to the attention of Jason and David. And, you know, it's

00:52:09   hard to say what exactly happened, but basically they kind of shrugged it off at first. And that

00:52:13   just escalated things even more. And I don't know, I really, really strongly encourage you if you

00:52:20   have the time and the willingness to read a little bit to read the two pieces by Casey Newton. I

00:52:24   believe both of them are at the verge. We'll put them in the show notes. It's also worth reading

00:52:28   the actual stuff that David and Jason said on their various, I guess, kind of sort of blogs.

00:52:34   There's so much here. And I'm going to give you two a chance to add any other relevant summary if

00:52:40   you'd like. But truly, you're hearing me, the chief summarizer in chief, doing at best a passable

00:52:47   job of summarizing this. And I am deliberately leaving out a lot because we would be here for

00:52:51   an hour if I don't. So that's kind of where things started. And again, please read Casey's,

00:52:58   the other Casey's articles, and feel free to pause the show now to do so. But like I was saying

00:53:04   earlier, it really makes people wonder, like, what is the role of politics in the workforce? What is

00:53:08   the role of executives with regard to setting rules and culture? Was this right? Was this wrong?

00:53:17   Was it that their edict of no politics in the workplace was right, but the way they handled

00:53:22   it was wrong? Who really knows? And we're certainly going to talk about it here in a second. But what

00:53:27   we do know is by the end of last week, or perhaps the beginning of this week, Basecamp had said in a

00:53:33   very Basecamp-y way, "Look, if you want to leave Basecamp, if you're an employee and you would like

00:53:40   to leave, we'll give you something to the order of six months severance and no questions asked,

00:53:44   you can walk. We'll give you six months pay and we'll do what we can to help you land another job."

00:53:48   And supposedly about a third of the company did that. They walked away, including, from what I

00:53:55   understand, the entire iOS team, for example. So there's a lot here. I don't know which of you

00:54:03   would like to start. Maybe Marco, are there any other points that I'm skipping that are salient

00:54:08   with regard to the summary? And then feel free to dig in if not. Honestly, I have not followed the

00:54:15   story that closely. I had a bunch of stuff happening in real life, nothing bad, just a very

00:54:20   busy couple of weeks. And so I missed most of this. I have read some of the summary articles.

00:54:25   It's hard for me to speak about this because not only is it a little uncomfortable, because I don't

00:54:32   want to offend people or say the wrong thing or say something that I don't mean, just out of my

00:54:38   clumsiness with using the language and speaking that I'm not particularly solid at. So there's

00:54:44   all that factoring in here. But on the basic question of whether political speech at work

00:54:55   should be allowed, and again, with the massive disclaimer that I've never managed people,

00:55:02   I should never manage people, and I don't know what it's like to manage people.

00:55:08   But with that all said, I think the idea that you shouldn't allow "political speech" in a workplace,

00:55:16   however you define that, which is its own massive can of worms, but the idea that you shouldn't allow

00:55:23   that only makes sense in a perfect world that is not our world that we live in. The idea that you

00:55:30   would not allow "political speech" presumes a lot about the equality of the world you're in,

00:55:39   whether anybody is oppressed. There's so many presumptions of privilege and of equality in that

00:55:50   kind of point of view. In reality, the world is messier than that. And in reality, you have to

00:55:55   talk politics sometimes because the world is not right. Not talking about it really just enables

00:56:02   the status quo to continue. And so the status quo has to be really damn good for everybody for that

00:56:07   to make sense, and that's never really the case anywhere in the world ever. So I think it's one

00:56:11   of those ideas that a lot of tech people have really simplistic, systematic views of the world,

00:56:18   of like, "Here's how things should work, because this is how they work logically in my head and in

00:56:22   my computer programs." And the world is messier than that. The world is way messier than that.

00:56:26   And I don't think we're ever going to be at a point where equality is so great and widespread

00:56:32   and universal that we will be able to have the privilege to say we don't need to talk about

00:56:37   politics in the workplace. That's not reality. That will never happen. And as long as the world

00:56:43   has any inequality whatsoever, the idea of trying to limit speech in a workplace to not include

00:56:51   politics, again, whatever that means, I think it's a fantasy. And the real world is not like that.

00:56:56   And by forcing silence on certain topics as a policy, what you really do is enable the current

00:57:07   ruling class, whatever that is, and you significantly disadvantage any kind of marginalized

00:57:14   group or any kind of marginalized cause. And that's, again, that's just, it's never going to

00:57:20   work. That's never going to be a right and just and justified outcome. I don't think, I mean,

00:57:27   I don't know the people who run this company. I have no idea what their motivations are or aren't.

00:57:34   But I don't believe that these are fundamentally evil people. I don't, maybe I haven't read up on

00:57:42   it. I don't know. I don't think they are. I think this was just a really badly made decision and a

00:57:49   series of very badly handled problems from what I've read. But again, that's very little. So I'll

00:57:53   let Jon talk about the details much better than I could and the issue much better than I could. But

00:57:59   yeah, my point of view on this basically is, again, from my very limited reading of it, that the whole

00:58:05   idea of politics at work, of trying to pretend like you can just not talk about that and everything

00:58:11   will be fine, that's a fantasy. So when these things blow up on Twitter, like, I mean, we're

00:58:18   all kind of probably have some form of trauma from the past four years, at least in the US anyway.

00:58:25   But, you know, for these, for the Twitter dramas that are essentially lower stakes, like,

00:58:31   this is one small tech company, it looms large in our particular nerd world, but I bet most people

00:58:36   have never heard of it. When there's lower stakes like that, and you're more distant from it, maybe

00:58:41   your inclination is like, oh, then I don't have to pay attention to it. It's not a big deal, like,

00:58:44   or whatever. But I think it's useful when something blows up like this, that you do have distance from,

00:58:51   that it's not really about you, it's not really about anyone you know, and it's not really about

00:58:55   anything of consequence, it's just, you know, one little company. There's always something in every

00:59:00   one of these controversies, there's always something to be learned. And the more you're able to,

00:59:04   to look at it from a distance, the more you're able to incorporate that new knowledge into yourself

00:59:13   without any kind of like personal thread or identity thread or whatever, right? Because

00:59:17   I bet most people listening to this don't have any particular stake in base camp. And it's,

00:59:20   you know, like I said, in the grand scheme of things, it's not Facebook or Apple,

00:59:23   it's a 60 person company, or was a 60 person company, right? And so that's the first thing

00:59:29   I'll say about this is, take the opportunity, if you are a person who follows Twitter or follows

00:59:35   any kind of tech news, that when some one of these things happen, and when it seems like

00:59:39   there's a lot of like, strife and drama about some decision, take that opportunity to see,

00:59:46   is there anything I as a basically detached observer can learn from what has happened here?

00:59:52   And there almost always is, sometimes it's multiple things learn from different angles,

00:59:56   like, you know, it depends on the controversy, but sometimes in a controversy, especially when

01:00:01   it's like super low stakes, where people like arguing about superheroes or something, it's like,

01:00:04   who cares? You can put yourself in the position of all sides of the debate and say, okay, well,

01:00:09   if I was in this position, here's what I would have learned from this thing. And if I was in this

01:00:13   position, here's what I would have learned if I was in this position, here's what you know, what

01:00:15   can be learned, right? And this is a great example of that. In all measures, it's not as low stakes

01:00:21   as superheroes, but in the grand scheme of things, most of us, you know, we're not base camp employees.

01:00:27   To just give a little bit of background, if you haven't heard of base camp,

01:00:32   the company in our, you know, sort of not Mac nerd circles, but sort of tech enthusiasts with

01:00:38   tastes kind of circles. They're known for making products, making sort of products that appeal

01:00:47   to the nerds. They have nice user interface, they look nice. And they're also known for

01:00:52   creating a company, base camp, it was really originally called 37 signals,

01:00:59   that runs counter to a lot of the conventional wisdom about how companies should be run

01:01:02   in a way that is appealing to, that would be appealing to the founders. Like they made a

01:01:08   company, it's the type of place that they would want to work. They wrote a lot of books about it.

01:01:13   I think at least one was like a New York Times bestseller that says, look, you can run a company

01:01:18   like this and it's better. Things like, hey, you don't have to grow at the maximum possible rate.

01:01:24   It's okay to get a company that is merely sustainably profitable. You don't have to run

01:01:29   your employees ragged. You don't have to accept VC money. And, you know, people would run at them

01:01:33   and say like, look, what you have, you've left millions of dollars of value on the table by not

01:01:39   pursuing growth at all costs. And they would say, that's just not what we want to do. And this is a

01:01:42   perfectly valid choice. You can have a company that, you know, treats its employees with more

01:01:48   respect than your typical company. You can give them perks that most companies wouldn't give them,

01:01:52   even though you lose money on them. And like, you know, you don't have to require your employees to

01:01:57   answer your emails on weekends and just all sort of stuff that feels good to you. If, again, if

01:02:02   you look at the founders and where they're coming from, they say, it seems to me that they tried to

01:02:06   make a company that is a place that they would want to work. And that's one of the things that

01:02:11   they're famous for in addition to their products, which are, you know, well, well made and appealing.

01:02:15   And of course, David Hennemeyer Hanson created Ruby on Rails. So this is a whole other technical

01:02:20   side of things where the technology stack they work on is itself famous and also famous for

01:02:24   reasons that are related to the stuff that I just said. Ruby on Rails is convention over configuration

01:02:28   and it's aesthetically nice and it's simple and it's user friendly and it has lots of affordances

01:02:33   for getting set up and running. You know, it all kind of fits together in that, you know,

01:02:38   like if you look at their products, their books, the technology, it makes sense together, right?

01:02:44   And everything about it sounds good. And, you know, a lot of people are having a lot of

01:02:50   making fun of this, like, oh, these are, these are the people who are writing books about how to,

01:02:54   telling us how we're supposed to run a company for the past 17 years. And they just lost a third

01:02:57   of their employees. So, ha ha, I guess you, all those ideas you had must've been terrible

01:03:02   because you obviously have no idea what you're doing. And I don't think that's necessarily the

01:03:07   case, but I think this particular controversy goes to show that like, like what they've been able to

01:03:15   do with their products, with their books, even with their technology stack, they've been able

01:03:19   to do because of their decisions to not accept VC, to maintain control over the company, to not have

01:03:26   a big hierarchy, to keep the company small. And that means that the two people, the co-founders

01:03:31   are able to essentially do whatever they want. Like it's their company, they control it. They don't

01:03:36   have to answer to a board of directors. They don't have to run their decisions by a committee.

01:03:40   If they think something is a good idea, they can just do it. That kind of individual control

01:03:45   produces many great things. Lots of great works of art, great video games, small companies,

01:03:49   startups that are powered and driven by the decision of a small number of individuals.

01:03:56   And that allows them to do things that the big companies can't do or won't do or are against

01:04:01   conventional wisdom. What that also means is whatever foibles, flaws, or blind spots,

01:04:08   those two individual people who are in control of everything have,

01:04:13   those also get a chance to be executed immediately, unequivocally. And if it turned out to be the

01:04:20   wrong decision, that's the downside of having the control embodied in a very small number of people

01:04:26   who answer to nobody. And it seems kind of amazing to me that 37Signal/BaseCamp has gone on this long

01:04:34   without the blind spots of the founders manifesting in the way they just did.

01:04:40   So that I think is an important lesson of like, "Oh, if only it was just me in charge of everything

01:04:46   and I didn't have to run everything through this organization, everything would be great and I would

01:04:49   make all the right decisions." There is a buffering effect of having more opinions and not having

01:04:56   absolute control. I wouldn't promote the idea of giving VCs control, but that's one lesson that I

01:05:04   take away from this. The next thing is, so what was their problem? What's their blind spot?

01:05:10   Like, what did they do wrong? One of the things you can learn from this controversy is,

01:05:16   from the outside, we didn't know anything initially. We just said, "It's policy land.

01:05:22   Here's our new policy." It had a bunch of other stuff in the policy, which is other new policies

01:05:26   that you look at and say, "Oh, I can kind of understand that," or, "That seems weird."

01:05:31   Instead of giving you benefits, they were just going to give you the cash for those benefits so

01:05:35   you can decide what you want. But it was like, "Well, but maybe what if they get a group deal?"

01:05:39   Will they always give us the cash? Is the cash really equivalent to what they're taking away?

01:05:43   What's the point of this? Getting rid of committees, which sounds like, "Oh, well,

01:05:47   I mean committees. Who likes committees?" But on the other hand, does that mean it's just

01:05:51   the committees we were doing useful things? One of the committees they were getting rid of was

01:05:56   the Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion Committee. That seems maybe not great, but the one that

01:06:02   everyone focused on was the one we just read, "No more societal and political discussions on

01:06:06   our company base camp account," which I think said, "No more societal or political discussions

01:06:10   at work originally," or something like that. That particular point is when it landed on Twitter,

01:06:17   one particular group of people saw that and immediately said, "Warning! Warning! Danger!

01:06:24   This is not good. This is not a good decision." A much larger group of people said, "What's the

01:06:31   big deal? It sounds fine to me. You don't want people arguing about politics all day at your

01:06:34   work. This is a perfectly rational decision." Another thing you can learn from this

01:06:39   controversy is why did those two groups of people have such different reactions to this rule? One

01:06:45   group thought, "Well, whatever. I can understand where they're coming from. Seems kind of weird,

01:06:49   but who cares?" The other group was like, "This is the wrongest thing you could possibly say.

01:06:53   You have totally lost track of what you're doing. Do not do this." Understanding both of those

01:07:02   positions is important to understanding what they did wrong. I was in the camp when I saw this,

01:07:08   and I said, "Oh, no. No, no. You've done something very bad here." What I meant was they've done

01:07:17   something so bad that they're going to have to walk this back. They're just going to have to.

01:07:24   It turns out that they stuck with it long enough for a third of their company to quit

01:07:28   and then posted a thing which is like, "It looks like we made a mistake." I was like,

01:07:33   "You think? Do you think you made a mistake?" They didn't spell out the mistake they made,

01:07:38   so it's not entirely clear they understand it fully yet, but I think all observers would agree,

01:07:45   unless that third of the employees that left your company were employees that you wanted to leave

01:07:49   your company, which it doesn't seem like it was because it was super senior people and a lot of

01:07:53   them had been there for a long time. I have a feeling that Basecamp did not hire a lot of

01:07:57   people who were terrible employees and didn't retain people who were terrible employees.

01:08:01   Probably you didn't want those people to leave, so you can't even say, "Oh, well, people left,

01:08:06   but only the bad ones." You can say, "Whatever you did, it didn't work the way you thought it

01:08:12   was going to work, and it's bad." Then you've got to figure out what it was. Again, all the

01:08:16   people who said, "This is a bad idea and this is terrible," understood something that the founders

01:08:23   didn't. Without digging into it too much, Marco more or less landed on it. As the details came out,

01:08:33   we could—I don't want to dig more into the deals. We'll put tons and tons of links so you can read

01:08:36   about what it is. The founders who have complete control of policy don't set a policy like this

01:08:42   unless something has happened and they're like, "Okay, well, I don't know how to deal with this,

01:08:48   so I'm just going to make a blanket rule so that we never have to deal with this again. Let's just

01:08:52   not bring it up again. Let's just not talk about it," which anyone who's ever been in a relationship

01:08:55   knows is not the solution to any kind of serious problem that you're having. These problems are

01:08:59   hard, but it's essentially a failure of leadership, of saying, "We don't know what to do. It seems

01:09:04   like whatever we do, nobody is happy, so we're just not going to talk about it anymore." As Marco

01:09:09   points out, you've essentially made a decision and picked a side at that point, whether you know it

01:09:13   or not, because not talking about it is a tacit endorsement of the status quo and yada, yada.

01:09:19   Then people will be asking themselves, "So what the hell is wrong with the status quo and why

01:09:22   should people be arguing about stuff at work?" I still don't understand. That brings me to another

01:09:26   thing that you can learn by blocking a lot of these controversies. Inevitably, someone will

01:09:30   bring up the word "woke," which gets thrown around as an insult these days. It's, I think,

01:09:38   one of the more recent, in the past decade or so, vocabulary words that has come into use that is

01:09:44   actually extremely appropriate. The reason people have such differing views of this rule has to do

01:09:54   with how awakened certain people are to things that other people are not yet awakened to. That

01:10:01   sounds profound. It's like, "Oh, we know the truth and you don't," and blah, blah, blah. It's not

01:10:04   that at all. It's just that, I'm sure as you live longer, you will experience this eventually,

01:10:11   of becoming aware of something that you hadn't really thought much about before.

01:10:15   This is something that I can personally, I think all three of us, can personally speak to as an

01:10:21   experience of awakening to issues that previously were not on your radar at all. If I think back to

01:10:28   my teenage self and how aware I was of many, many of the issues that fall under the umbrella of

01:10:35   current modern-day wokeness, I had no awareness of them whatsoever, or the awareness I had was so

01:10:41   surface level and I was on the complete opposite side of it that I might as well not have understood

01:10:47   its existence. Think of something simple like, "Does sexism exist? How are girls treated differently

01:10:54   than boys in school? How are men treated differently than women in society?" Maybe,

01:10:58   intellectually, I could have given lip service or something or other, but I had no idea. I had not

01:11:02   yet awakened to that profound reality. It took years, embarrassingly long, and years and years

01:11:07   and years of my age to eventually mean to awaken the fact that, "Oh, life is actually different if

01:11:12   you're a woman in America than if you're a man." And not just different in a way that we fixed in

01:11:18   the 60s and we never have to worry about again, but profoundly different. I don't know what it's

01:11:25   like to experience that, but I do know what it's like to be awakened to the idea that there is

01:11:30   something that you didn't understand before that you do now. Multiply that by a million different

01:11:35   issues that we all potentially are unaware of now, but could, through experience or hearing other

01:11:41   people talk about it or just the passage of time and through our thick skulls, become awakened to

01:11:47   things. And it's a difficult thing to express because if I could go back in time and talk to

01:11:53   my teenage self and try to explain it, my teenage self would dismiss me and say, "You're an idiot.

01:11:57   Go away. I already understand this. You're stupid. Everything you're saying is dumb."

01:12:01   And that doesn't make any sense, and that's not actually true.

01:12:04   I mean, isn't that everyone's teenage selves?

01:12:05   Right. But that's a difficulty we face here, right? So anytime there's anything like this

01:12:12   where the "woke people" see this and understand the underlying issues of marginalization and

01:12:20   oppression in the workplace, in the subtle modern incarnation where there is no one trying to do

01:12:27   anything particularly evil and everyone is trying to do the right thing, but because, let's say,

01:12:32   I mean, this is the hypothetical. I don't know. The founders, whatever. But let's say the founders

01:12:35   of this company tried to make a company that they would want to work out. Maybe they did. Maybe they

01:12:39   successfully made a company that they would want to work at, but they are two rich white dudes.

01:12:46   And making a company that they want to work at isn't necessarily the same company that someone

01:12:50   who doesn't share their life experiences would also want to work at, right? And I don't want to

01:12:55   dig too far. I don't know the details of the Basecamp thing or immaterial, but it's clear

01:13:00   that the founders, I'm not going to say they didn't fully understand the perspective of the employees

01:13:07   who were on the DEI committee and who were railing against the list of names and had

01:13:17   specific grievances. So here's the thing about this, one more thing to learn, right?

01:13:22   The founders all agreed that the list was bad. Everyone agreed the list was bad. We're going to

01:13:26   get rid of it. It's bad that we have this list. It's not like they were saying the list is fine.

01:13:30   I don't know what you're worried about. They weren't saying that at all. They were like,

01:13:32   yes, we should never have done this. The founders didn't make the list. They became aware of it and

01:13:37   they said, this is not how we do things here at Basecamp. We're not going to have a list of making

01:13:43   fun of our customers' names. It's bad for multiple reasons. We're getting rid of it. It's not like

01:13:47   there was a debate about that, right? But they managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory

01:13:53   by when Preston's saying, okay, not only is this list bad, but also, hey, if you're, you know,

01:14:00   I don't know the details here, but let's say they had an employee who was an Asian American and

01:14:06   said, there's no Asian American probably alive today who's an adult who did not have their

01:14:11   name made fun of or their imagined name made fun of when they were a kid, right? And maybe that's

01:14:17   a thing you know intellectually, but if you haven't grown up having sort of people make fun

01:14:24   of your name in that way that they can make fun of Asian names or calling you things that aren't

01:14:29   your actual name, but it's fun to call you when you're in elementary school, having a list of

01:14:34   names at work that people are making fun of has a different effect on you as making the workplace

01:14:41   feel like a safe place where you belong and where, you know, you don't have to worry about

01:14:46   things like that coming up. And you might say, well, that's not a big deal. Who cares? Your name's

01:14:50   not on the list. What are you even worried about? Right. Not understanding the sort of continuum of

01:14:55   like, okay, well, making fun of my name. That's not a big deal all the way up to like, you know,

01:15:00   people attacking Asian Americans with cinder blocks in San Francisco, the latest story I read

01:15:04   or whatever, right? Those two things aren't connected at all, which is something that some

01:15:08   of the founders actually said. It's like, I can see where you come from. This is bad. We should

01:15:11   get rid of the list, but come on. Like, it's not the same thing as like attacking Asian Americans

01:15:16   on the street. Like, this is not, that's, there's no connection between those two things. And the

01:15:21   thing is, there is a connection. It is a long circuitous connection, but you can travel it and

01:15:27   you can find it and they do eventually connect. And like the founders push back on trying to sort

01:15:34   of draw the bigger picture. Someone who is aware of the bigger picture because they live it, trying

01:15:39   to show that bigger picture to the founders, cause the founders to push back against that. Again,

01:15:44   even though everyone agrees list is bad, we're getting a little bit, there's not a thing that

01:15:48   we do with this company. They disagreed about particularly why we don't do it and what it means

01:15:55   in the bigger picture. And so their reaction was, you know what? We tried this and no one's happy.

01:16:00   We told you we're getting rid of the list. Some people think that getting a list is bad. And we

01:16:03   said, we're getting rid of the list. And the people who agree with us said, well, but you don't

01:16:06   understand why you don't know. You're not getting rid of the list for the reasons that are the exact

01:16:10   same reasons that we think you should. And you don't understand the bigger pictures. And now

01:16:12   we're angry at you. So you know what? No politics at work. Problem solved. And that was not the

01:16:18   right decision to make, but it stems from the collective blind spot that the founders had to,

01:16:24   like they didn't really know what they were dealing with. And I'm not saying these issues

01:16:27   are easy to deal with. Like I, you know, few people are equipped to deal with this on their own,

01:16:33   which is part of why you get a DEI committee, which is part of why you diversify your workforce.

01:16:37   In fact, I feel like, again, I'm speculating here, but it feels like Basecamp has made an effort over

01:16:42   the past few years to try to diversify its workforce. And that's kind of like, you know,

01:16:46   the pipeline problem with like women in tech or whatever. Oh, the solution is let's just hire more

01:16:50   women. That's not the solution if you're hiring women into an environment that is hostile to

01:16:54   women. All you're doing is like throwing them into a threshing machine and saying, we hired you,

01:16:57   the problem is solved. And they're like, well, but here we are. And there's some things we should

01:17:01   change about your company because now that we're here, we see it's not particularly great to be a

01:17:05   woman here. So let's change some stuff, right? So it is plausible. I don't know if this to be true,

01:17:10   but it is plausible that Basecamp made an effort to diversify its hiring because its founders are

01:17:14   good people and want to do that. And they successfully diversify their hiring. And those

01:17:19   diverse employees said, we think we should make some changes around here and let's form a committee

01:17:24   to, you know, like once you get employees with different perspectives and different points of

01:17:28   view, they necessarily will have things that they want to improve to make the working environment

01:17:35   better for everybody, not just for the people who are already there. And when that happens,

01:17:40   there is going to be, I'm not going to say a power struggle, but like the phrase they use these days

01:17:44   is renegotiating the social contract. And that happens on levels very small and very large.

01:17:49   And even just at the level in an individual company, if you hire a bunch of employees from

01:17:54   diverse backgrounds, they're the ones who are going to find that list and say, you know what,

01:17:58   it's not great that this list exists, making fun of people's names. Whereas it had existed for years

01:18:02   and apparently it wasn't a big deal, but now you hire some new employees and say, hey, we probably

01:18:07   shouldn't do this. And to the founders credit, they say, you know what, now that you've shown us

01:18:11   this list, we agree, this is crappy, we shouldn't do this. But then the debate that ensues about

01:18:15   why it's crappy reveals that the founders don't really have the bigger picture that these other

01:18:19   employees do because they don't have the life experiences. And they're also not experienced

01:18:23   enough to know how to navigate this very difficult issue. And they don't have a bunch of committees

01:18:29   or a board helping sort of buffer their decisions to try to figure out how we can navigate this.

01:18:33   They just try to do the best they can as two individuals. They are not equipped to deal with

01:18:40   this. They make the wrong decision. And a third of the company leaves. And you look at the third

01:18:43   of the company leaving, you're like, all these people all overreacting. What were they, you know,

01:18:47   what are they so mad about? What actually happened isn't that big of a deal. And the founders agreed

01:18:52   the list was bad. And they're just, oh, because they're not, because they're not woke enough,

01:18:55   you have to leave the company. And one, maybe final thing, one final thing you can learn here is,

01:19:01   ask the people, ask someone who left, why did you leave? Why was it important enough for you to

01:19:07   leave the company? Like, look at what they have to say on Twitter, read their blog posts, see where

01:19:10   they're coming from, try to understand their perspective, right? And that can help you maybe

01:19:17   sort of not file people away as these are the villains, and these are the heroes, and these are

01:19:22   the overreactors, and these are the people who are doing the, you know, the right thing or the smart

01:19:27   thing or whatever. From all sides of this, there is something to learn about, you know, how people

01:19:34   can make mistakes, how people can be blind to their mistakes, how something that's small to

01:19:39   one person can be big to another, and how doing anything to upset the status quo, whether it is

01:19:46   diversifying hiring practices, or forming a DEI committee, or, you know, changing something about

01:19:53   a workplace as simple as a list of customer names that we all agree is bad, that we shouldn't be

01:19:59   laughing at at work, that we all agree we should get rid of, how that can turn into something that

01:20:04   destroys a third of the company, right? Lots, lots and lots to learn here. And none of it has to,

01:20:11   you know, none of it is about like demonizing people or taking revenge against people or

01:20:17   being thrilled that the people who wrote a bunch of management books about how to run a company

01:20:20   have gotten their comeuppance because now it shows how they didn't know how to run a company after

01:20:24   all. I think they know a lot about running a great company. But we found a blind spot, and they made

01:20:30   the wrong call, and they are suffering the consequences from it. And I think and hope that

01:20:35   they will learn something from this. I think, you know, everyone involved is learning a hard lesson.

01:20:40   And I hope observers will learn something from this. That, you know, though this may be your

01:20:46   first instinct, and though it may be your instinct to stick to your guns, this is not actually the

01:20:50   solution to the problems that were identified. And, you know, the details are going to be different

01:20:54   in every single situation. But the idea that we are going to, you know, change the status quo in

01:21:01   any way to make marginalized people ever so slightly less marginalized and ever so narrowly

01:21:07   defined situations, that will necessarily have ramifications for everybody, not just for the

01:21:12   marginalized people, right? If you want to make room for people at the table, it means

01:21:16   you just can't continue to sit exactly where you are and do the same thing all the time. Making

01:21:20   room means making room. And that's always difficult. Yeah, I think the thing that really

01:21:26   bothered me about it is, or not the thing, but one of the things that bothered me about it was that,

01:21:33   you know, this whole no politics in the workplace thing was obviously not a great idea. And people

01:21:38   very quickly jumped on it and tried to say, "Hey, you know, this is not a great idea, and it's not

01:21:42   quite that cut and dry." And if you look at, and we have all these links in the show notes,

01:21:47   that was announced in a post that Jason Fried wrote called "Changes at Basecamp." And everyone

01:21:53   pretty quickly was like, "Whoa, whoa, that's not so great. Not loving that." There were one, two,

01:21:59   three, four, five posts that followed. The fifth was a kind of mealy-mouthed half apology-ish,

01:22:08   maybe? It was more of a— I mean, you know what? It wasn't an apology. It was an acknowledgement

01:22:13   that they had made a mistake. They didn't go into explaining, "Here's the mistake that we made,"

01:22:18   so it's not clear whether they fully understand it yet. But, you know, part of their MO,

01:22:22   like a lot of people ask why they do this publicly, part of the way this company has

01:22:26   always worked is they do things boldly and in public and whenever they come to mind. So

01:22:32   their last post of saying, you know, "We made a mistake, and we've got a lot of learning to do,"

01:22:38   didn't go into more detail. But I'm sure this won't be the last post on this topic, right? So

01:22:44   I do hope that they are talking to people and soul-searching and figuring out exactly what

01:22:49   happened, but to expect them to suddenly figure it all out immediately is asking a lot.

01:22:57   And I think, you know, I think they have a road to continue to travel to truly, truly understand

01:23:02   exactly what just happened. Right, exactly. And I think the thing that I find so gross,

01:23:06   one of the things I find so gross about it is, you know, from all the reporting, particularly

01:23:11   that Casey Newton has done, when they were called out internally, like, "Hey, you know, this ain't

01:23:16   right. The list ain't right. This ain't right," you know, there were times they agreed. But then

01:23:22   when they were still challenged, they didn't seem to have any particular appetite to understand why.

01:23:27   And it was like you said, Jon, they said, "Oh, well, you know, nobody seems to be happy. Well,

01:23:31   screw it. No politics. Problem solved. All right, let's move on to the next thing."

01:23:34   They understood what they understood some things that were wrong with it, things that were within

01:23:40   the realm of their understanding were, "Hey, it's not good to make fun of your customers,

01:23:44   because that's rude. And it's private customer information that we shouldn't be passing around

01:23:49   anyway. So it's an invasion of privacy." Right? Those two reasons they got, which are both true,

01:23:54   right? But I think it was particular Hennemeyer Hanson, like when when pressed on like, "Oh,

01:23:59   and by the way, there's also a racial oppression aspect of this," said, "Get out of here."

01:24:05   That's not that's not a bit. That's not a big deal. That's not a big, you know, because that

01:24:10   was outside their experience and understanding that they didn't, they hadn't yet awoken to that,

01:24:15   what that reality is like for some people who are not them, and hadn't internalized it. Again,

01:24:20   it seemed the way that I had not internalized sexism when I was a teenager, even though

01:24:23   intellectually I could say something about it. But if pressed on a specific issue, "Oh,

01:24:27   that's not sexist. And that's just that's something else. There's no connection." You know,

01:24:30   right? I've been there. We've all been there before we have understood whatever the issue may be.

01:24:34   And the fact that they couldn't make that connection, like, I don't, you know,

01:24:38   who knows what else went on. I don't want to speculate. This could have been one of

01:24:41   17 different incidents like that, whatever was going on internally. Again, I defer to

01:24:45   ask the people who left why they left and they'll explain it to you in their own words.

01:24:48   They're in a much better position than I do. But that's why this looks so weird from the outside.

01:24:52   But it's like, maybe that was just the straw that broke the camel's back. Maybe that was just

01:24:57   revelatory to enough people to say, "Look, like when the rule came down, like,

01:25:00   we give up. We can't seem to make these founders understand what we're trying to tell them. And

01:25:04   they disbanded the DEI committee. And they say we can't talk about politics at work. So

01:25:08   whatever hope we had for them figuring out is lost. And it's not so much about this one

01:25:12   particular incident in exchange. It's just the accumulation of offense." Because, you know,

01:25:17   in the end, something more profound has to happen than this one incident for a third of your company

01:25:22   to leave, right? Especially people who've been there for years and years, senior people,

01:25:26   entire teams. Like, this is obviously a bigger issue than the details that we have, you know,

01:25:32   access to now. But it only takes, you know, everyone has their sort of breaking point or

01:25:37   their giving up point of saying, "Well, I don't see this going any better." And as someone pointed

01:25:42   out in the chat, in the update post, it doesn't say yet, as far as I can tell, that they're changing

01:25:47   the policy. They just are recognizing that they made a mistake. And it's not clear to me that they

01:25:53   understand what that mistake was yet, or how it connects to the rule they made or anything like

01:25:57   that. But I'm hoping they will come around to it eventually. No, but it's worth reading this first

01:26:03   paragraph in an update, which as we record was posted yesterday. This is from Jason Fried. And

01:26:08   again, I will read this verbatim in the first paragraph. "Last week was terrible. We started

01:26:12   with policy changes that felt simple, reasonable, and principled, and it blew things up internally

01:26:16   in ways we never anticipated. David and I completely own the consequences and we're sorry.

01:26:21   We have a lot to learn and reflect on, and we will. The new policies stand, but we have some

01:26:25   refining and clarifying to do." That is the entirety of the first paragraph. Yeah, so like,

01:26:30   they're saying the policies stand, but they're refining and clarifying. Hopefully their learning

01:26:36   and reflecting will lead them to understand that refining and clarifying is not going to solve this

01:26:39   problem. But you know, put it another way, this is not the ideal learning environment for you as

01:26:47   a company founder and CEO. This is not the way you want to learn these lessons in public in

01:26:52   incredibly dramatic fashion in a way that is very bad for your established self-image as people who

01:26:57   tell other people how to run a company, right? It's not the ideal scenario for you to learn. And so

01:27:02   it's probably harder for them to be receptive to these broader ideas. And from my personal

01:27:08   experience, I've had to be exposed to, you know, information experiences, the experiences of

01:27:16   others, personal stories, reading on it for years and years for it to finally sink through my thick

01:27:21   skull about insert whatever issue you want to put here, whether it's sexism, racism, you know,

01:27:25   any kind of thing that I've felt like I've become awoken to in the latter part of my adult life,

01:27:32   way embarrassingly late in my white male adult life, right? And when I think about,

01:27:38   okay, how would you cause that to happen in someone else? Like, "Oh, geez, I don't know.

01:27:41   Can you give me 10 years?" Like, it's not a type of thing that you can like argue at Twitter and

01:27:47   like, "Oh, I'm convinced. Now I understand racism is real. Yay." It doesn't work that way. I don't

01:27:52   know what the solution is. And to be clear, the lesson here is not like, "Oh, company must be a

01:27:58   battleground for changing each other's minds." That's not what it is at all. Like, I think one

01:28:02   of the things that they should be thinking about is what kind of environment were we trying to make

01:28:06   it work and what kind of environment actually existed at work for all the different people who

01:28:11   came to work for us? What is the experience? What has the experience of working at Basecamp been like

01:28:16   for people who are not me and who are not exactly like me? And what is the ideal working environment

01:28:22   that we want to create? There's always going to be conflict at work. There's always going to be

01:28:25   multiple views. It's not the job of the CEO to change the mind of all the employees. It's not

01:28:29   the employees to change the mind of the CEO. People can leave and get a different job if they want.

01:28:33   Like, that's not what we're talking about here. All we're talking about is if you are a leader and

01:28:36   you're trying to make a place where people can work, you have to decide as a leader, "What kind

01:28:41   of place do I want to make? And am I succeeding in making it be like that for everybody who works for

01:28:46   me?" And that's a super hard job. And it's much harder now than it was if we could just say, "Well,

01:28:51   everyone stays at home except for the white men. And they're all going to be like me. And we're

01:28:54   all going to have the same thoughts and ideas and the same religion and come from the same place and

01:28:57   speak the same language. And we're going to make an environment that we like." That's way easier,

01:29:02   if you're one of those people in charge, than trying to make a good place to work for everyone.

01:29:09   And to the credit of the founders, it seems to me that they were trying to make Basecamp more

01:29:14   inclusive than it had been. It's just that they were not prepared to understand what it takes to

01:29:21   do that. It's not as simple as, "We'll just hire more different kinds of people." And problem solved.

01:29:25   And that's step zero. All you're going to do now is reveal all the problems you didn't know you had.

01:29:31   One more thing I'll throw in here from the Creativity Inc. thing. Success hides problems.

01:29:35   And Basecamp has been very successful. The founders have been very successful. It's easy

01:29:40   to think that everything is going awesome when everyone's raking in the money and people are

01:29:44   buying your book about how to run companies. And every time you put an opening, tons of people

01:29:50   apply and you get to pick really great employees. And it seems like you have an awesome little

01:29:54   company. And being on that path for a long time can convince you that things really are going as

01:30:02   well as you think they are. Because how could you be so successful if they weren't? And having it

01:30:07   slowly revealed to you that actually everything isn't as rosy as you think is counter to your

01:30:12   notion that everything is, "What do you mean? We're doing great. Everything's awesome. I'm rich.

01:30:18   We have a New York Times-selling book. We have awesome products. Everybody loves us.

01:30:21   What's the problem?" And it's like, "That success exists. That success is helping hide problems from

01:30:27   you. But it's not hiding them from us who are down here working with them, but it's hiding them from

01:30:30   you and that itself is a problem." Yeah, I think an overwhelming impression I got for, again,

01:30:36   the little bit of the actual direct quotes and stuff that I did read is that these people running

01:30:43   this company don't seem like they're wrong a lot, or at least they don't think they're wrong a lot.

01:30:48   And the jump to defensiveness as a reaction is almost always a bad thing, especially when dealing

01:30:57   with issues like this. And it seems like that's their primary mode is like jump first to

01:31:02   defensiveness because they can't... I think they're not accustomed to being wrong in their own minds

01:31:07   or the possibility that they might be wrong in their own minds. And I think that's why you see

01:31:11   this huge amount of defensiveness that is quite bad. I think they're used to being wrong in ways

01:31:18   that they understand because that's a big part of how you run a company. You're going to do things,

01:31:22   you're going to do bold things, you're going to make a mistake, you're going to learn from them,

01:31:25   but they're used to being wrong in terms that make sense to them. That we tried to make a decision,

01:31:29   and now that I see that it didn't work, I now understand why it didn't work. It is all tractable.

01:31:34   It is within their worldview. And here is a case where they're wrong in a way that they didn't even

01:31:39   know what they were wrong about. That it was just so... And instead of themselves figuring out that

01:31:45   they were wrong based on, "I expected this to happen, but that happened, here's the explanation."

01:31:49   It seems like at this point they don't even yet have an explanation. They don't know what just

01:31:54   happened. And it's much more uncomfortable to be wrong in that situation than in all the other

01:31:58   situations where they were wrong because I bet half their business books are filled with like,

01:32:01   "Oh, we did this, we thought people would do this, so we put this product out of this,

01:32:03   and this price won. It turned out people didn't want to do that, but they wanted to do this,

01:32:07   or this price was wrong, or we should have made this free, or we decided to charge people a lot

01:32:11   even though we weren't sure how it worked out." Those are decisions they're comfortably wrong

01:32:15   about. That's all business books are about. Here's what I learned from the things that I did.

01:32:20   And this is a case where not only did they not realize they were wrong, they don't understand

01:32:23   how or what they were wrong about, and still don't. They saw the bad consequence. They know

01:32:28   something went wrong here, but it seems like they just don't quite get it yet. I mean, I feel like

01:32:33   they should really just sit through every single exit interview of every single employee leaving

01:32:38   the company and just let them talk to them for an hour each, and maybe that will sort of hammer home.

01:32:42   When these people tell you why they're leaving, believe them, right? Because they're like,

01:32:48   and understand how that came about based on your policies and actions of the company, right?

01:32:53   So I get what you're saying about them getting defensive, and certainly they are,

01:32:59   but I think part of it is defense out of fear of the unknown. Like, what even is going on here?

01:33:09   Something bad is happening and I don't quite understand it, and what people are telling me

01:33:14   doesn't make sense to me, so they must be the ones who are wrong, and we just stick to our guns and

01:33:17   it'll be fine because it's always been fine. We are sponsored this week by Linode, my favorite

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01:35:16   Thank you so much to Linode for hosting all my servers and sponsoring our show.

01:35:20   David Barber writes, "I'm curious to know what, if any, note-taking apps are used by the ATP hosts.

01:35:29   Obsidian, Roam, Evernote, OneNote, Just Folders. How do you track notes, plans, or ideas?"

01:35:33   I personally, I am not a productivity person and I don't switch note-taking apps all the time. I

01:35:42   use Apple Mail, which I know is extremely not trendy. I don't really care that much. I don't

01:35:48   really have a to-do list manager other than the app DUE, which is basically just a glorified

01:35:53   nagging machine. But I use Apple Notes for these sorts of things. I did use Evernote way long ago

01:35:59   and there are still some things in there, I suppose, but I haven't looked at it in forever.

01:36:03   I just use Apple Notes. It's fine for the sorts of things I want to capture and it's good enough for

01:36:07   me. Jon, what are you using? I'm using Apple Notes ever since they revised it so that syncing works

01:36:13   and everything. My needs are low. The only things I really need are a note-taking app that can do

01:36:21   basic lists of things, supports links, synced everywhere, and I can share notes. Those features

01:36:28   are all within Notes and seem to be pretty reliable. I'm a little bit wary of someday

01:36:33   losing all of my data there. If there's anything serious and important, I feel more comfortable

01:36:38   having it in a text file that lands in my backup vortex somehow because at any second all my notes

01:36:43   could disappear. But most of the stuff that's in Notes is just like Notes. Shopping lists,

01:36:49   a bunch of snippets of text that I want to deal with. If they all went away, it wouldn't be that

01:36:53   bad. I think the only really important thing I have in Notes is my squirrel list. Did I talk about

01:36:59   that in rectives? Yes, on rectives. There's a list of where I squirrel stuff away in the house so I

01:37:04   don't forget where it is because I'm old now. I guess if I lost that it would be bad, but in the

01:37:09   end it's all in the house. I'll find it eventually or my kids will with the estate sale. Whatever.

01:37:13   Wow. What about you, Marco? Yeah, pretty similar. I've never been that much of a note-taker in any

01:37:21   form, analog or digital, but certainly in the digital world my needs are also pretty light.

01:37:28   Yeah, I've just been using Apple Notes for a few years now. I used to use Clear for my shopping.

01:37:33   When I beat grocery shopping I would use Clear because it was easy to swipe through

01:37:37   in the grocery store. I don't even do that anymore. I just use Apple Notes. I have a grocery list

01:37:43   that's just like a checklist. Ever since they have the checklist items and some more of the

01:37:48   like rich formatting stuff. I love being able to just paste in images and stuff. I love how quick

01:37:53   and easy it is to use it and it mostly syncs okay most of the time. Although that being said,

01:38:02   I've had actually recent sync issues where like I'll edit on one device and I'll go to my phone

01:38:08   and the title will be incomplete and the content might not sync until like the next edit I make

01:38:14   on the source device and then it'll pop over. But that's been only a very recent thing. I assume

01:38:21   and hope it's a temporary bug. Before that everything was working fine for years.

01:38:24   Yeah, my notes app is my Apple Notes app is where it's at. I share the same anxiety about it as John

01:38:32   about like the data format to it is completely opaque and there is there are a few different

01:38:39   ways to export data from notes. A few different apps try to fill that role but there's no way to

01:38:45   then import it back in as far as I'm concerned. So that's not particularly useful as a backup method.

01:38:52   I do wish that Apple would solve this and I understand why they might not want to cram that

01:38:57   into the iOS app but they should at least cram into the Mac app. But yeah otherwise I like Apple

01:39:02   Notes. It is simple. It is deceptively powerful for how simple it is and I don't like everything

01:39:09   about it. It's not perfect. No app ever is but it's close enough to what I need and provides

01:39:15   enough advantages, enough integration, enough convenience everywhere and frankly enough

01:39:20   functionality that I'm not really looking elsewhere. I would say people who don't know

01:39:26   about the document scanning feature in notes which I forget about for months at a time but then

01:39:30   remember exists. It's nice. It's this little camera icon in the app and it will basically scan a

01:39:34   document and like straighten it for you. You know if you're if you're scanned at a slight angle or

01:39:39   it's twisted or whatever. It's just a you know there are plenty of apps that do a better job of

01:39:44   this I'm sure but for a built-in app don't forget that hey if you have a piece of paper that you

01:39:49   want to save a picture of instead of just bringing up the camera app and taking a picture of it and

01:39:53   putting it in your camera roll you can bring up a notes document and you know attach you know

01:39:59   use the document scanner and attach a nice straightened cropped in one button press view

01:40:04   of a page and then just do that for multiple pages and they can be part of a note because

01:40:08   notes can support and you can export them and you know as pdfs and put them into you know put them

01:40:12   wherever you want but like I find it much more convenient than littering my camera roll with

01:40:17   a bunch of slightly off-center skewed pictures that I then have to manually crop and fix

01:40:22   you know and never do. Also if your desired output format is a pdf like a scanned pdf of real life

01:40:30   paper I don't think I mentioned this in the show but I very recently learned that you can do that

01:40:36   in the files app on ios and you can it can scan directly to a pdf there there is a way like you

01:40:41   can do it from mac you can do it with preview where it'll it'll use like the continuity camera thing to

01:40:47   use your phone's camera from your max preview app to capture the document but it's clunky and a

01:40:53   little unreliable and and just kind of it's a lot of like manual weird back and forth so if you if

01:40:58   you are trying to use your phone as a document scanner to scan to a pdf definitely do the the

01:41:04   built-in scanner thing in the files app for basic needs again as john said there are a million other

01:41:08   apps that do like you know better you know more professional or more option-filled versions of

01:41:13   document scanning but if your needs are basic like me the built-in one in the files app is fine

01:41:18   why would you just do the scanning in the notes app and then go to print it and then you can make

01:41:23   a pdf that way did you know that trick i assume you knew that trick i'm serious that's i wouldn't

01:41:27   even think to go to the files app yeah so if you go to print anything in ios and then it's some

01:41:32   completely obtuse gesture i think you need to like uh pinch out you know so i guess the opposite of

01:41:38   pinch you need to expand in order to get like a full screen preview and then once you're in that

01:41:44   from the print dialogue yes yes i really i'm not messing with you uh i i am not trolling you at all

01:41:49   so hold on now i got to try this live it's gonna be fun for you that it's i'm in safari i had no

01:41:53   idea there there was a pdf export in ios yeah so if so i'm in safari and i go and i use the share

01:41:59   sheet and go to print okay so then i'm looking at just so happen i had atp up so i have to do the

01:42:05   opposite pinch so not bring in but push out totally doing this hold on and then and then you see a pdf

01:42:11   version and then it has a share sheet or a share icon in the upper right wait i don't

01:42:15   okay so go to print yeah the best programming ever all right so do you see you see there's like

01:42:21   a print preview at the bottom right yeah i just tried to print a web page and it totally didn't

01:42:25   work so i'm gonna try like an email just i don't know i don't know what else i'm gonna

01:42:28   all right hold on so actually wait how do you do an action from mail uh you have to do the reply

01:42:35   thing don't you all right well let me follow around along in mail then just make sure we're

01:42:38   seeing the same so i'm zooming out okay so you do uh where is it uh print yep and then you see the

01:42:44   print preview and you pinch to zoom into it i'm sorry so zoom in yeah it's how do you describe

01:42:50   the opposite the anti-pinch you know save to files and then you can you can do all number of things

01:42:56   but if you look it says so you have to go to the second action sheet nested inside the first action

01:43:03   sheet that got you to the print dialogue you're correct this is ridiculous anti-pinch oh it's

01:43:09   totally ridiculous but it does work and zoom in with the page on the previewed pages that i guess

01:43:16   correct make them open logically open up a pdf i mean this i honestly right this kind of seems

01:43:20   like an accidental feature um but wow that's this is like the the epitome of the the the worst of

01:43:29   touch design because this is completely undiscoverable and even when you told me to do it

01:43:36   i still couldn't figure it out for a while yeah when you scan documents and notes they end up as

01:43:41   pdfs too i think i mean certainly they do they're just inside a note so like yeah but you can get

01:43:45   them out very easily by just holding down yeah but like if you're if you are scanning a document with

01:43:51   your with your phone camera for the purpose of getting a pdf you're better off doing it directly

01:43:56   in the files app and save you a couple steps rather than scanning it into a note for no other reason

01:44:00   other than that you knew notes did this and then deleting the note or whatever like that's that's

01:44:04   what you normally it's like attached to a note where you want to sort of add annotations like

01:44:08   i'm usually like say let's say i'm shopping for couches and we're seeing a bunch of different

01:44:11   couches and i want to like basically save like the little tag that's on it to say oh we saw this

01:44:17   couch and here's all the information about it the serial number the blah blah blah like in the notes

01:44:21   document we're keeping track of the couches we're looking at scan document yep there's the little

01:44:25   tag and then move on to the next one so it's a series of notes about couches pictures of the tag

01:44:30   and then photos of the actual couches all you know it's it's a rich text document who knew uh just a

01:44:37   couple of quick shout outs actually before we move on uh for grocery shopping i think reminders or

01:44:42   excuse me notes is perfectly fine but i really really like any list i think i brought it up

01:44:46   before we'll put a link in the show notes they do shared shopping lists really well including with

01:44:50   photo annotations and quantities and things and uh i this isn't exactly note-taking but i should

01:44:56   mention day one i don't recall if they've ever sponsored the show before but i really love day

01:45:01   one actually any list may have sponsored many many years ago but anyway both of those uh whether or

01:45:05   not they've ever sponsored really really love both those apps day one is a journaling app and that's

01:45:10   where i keep memories from like the family because i have the world's worst memory and things that i

01:45:16   want to remember i keep in day one so uh moving right along zarf sharf writes uh what do you

01:45:22   prefer developing against an agent api or technology that's basically abandoned but the bug workarounds

01:45:27   are well known or modern api or technology that's constantly being updated and changed this is a

01:45:32   really good question and i feel like i i don't have one consistent answer i mean i look at what

01:45:38   i'm working on right now and i'm using swift ui exclusively and combined and that has its fair

01:45:44   share of problems so i'm enjoying it except when i'm not uh so i don't know i think i think i am

01:45:52   too distractible by the by the new shiny that i probably would probably would would would prefer

01:45:58   something modern and new even though intellectually and the mature developer in me knows that that's

01:46:04   the incorrect answer uh john what do you think i mean the way this is phrased i have to go with

01:46:09   the modern one just because like the ancient one that's basically abandoned yeah the bug workarounds

01:46:17   are known but working on any tech that is sort of basically no longer supported but abandoned

01:46:22   gets real bad real fast right you like you don't want to be the last one using a particular

01:46:27   technology for any purpose right whereas working on the new thing that's constantly being updated

01:46:31   and changed that means it's constantly improving too and that means that's where the action is that

01:46:36   means you probably don't have to be the one to fix every single bug that you ever find

01:46:40   because so many other people are fixing and updating or whatever so in practice i think

01:46:44   that's what everybody does yes even marco like you don't want to be on something that nobody

01:46:49   is supporting anymore now php doesn't qualify for that because it's not like php is abandoned people

01:46:53   are working on it all the time they're making new versions they're fixing bugs like it's still used

01:46:57   by tons of people right an actual technology that is quote-unquote basically abandoned means like

01:47:03   you're out there using it and nobody else is like it won't even build on your machine eventually

01:47:07   like it's just you know everyone moves to arm and it's still x86 and you have to figure out how to

01:47:12   compile it for arm if you want to keep using it you got to go with the one that's constantly being

01:47:16   updated and changed because that means people are working on it and that means it's improving

01:47:19   what do you think marco yeah i'm kind of torn on this actually because you know john raised up a

01:47:26   good point like if you are the last one using something that you know it might get abandoned

01:47:31   or it might get discontinued or broken that being said you never want to be building on quicksand

01:47:37   so it's it's one of those things where the answer is it depends in an ideal world you build

01:47:45   something once and then you never need to revisit it unless you want to that's not always what you

01:47:50   get though you know and so you know it in in the real world sometimes old technologies break because

01:47:59   no one's minding them you know no one's maintaining them no one's minding the store no one is is uh

01:48:04   testing against them so you know that's that's not great to be relying on on the other side of

01:48:09   the coin though i when i build against an api i'm trying to build something else i'm trying to build

01:48:17   something on top of it i'm trying like the whole thing is i want to do this work and then never

01:48:22   have the api cause problems for me or surprise me or require more time from me unnecessarily

01:48:30   so obviously it's not great if it's still very much in flux and so like if abandoned means

01:48:37   inactive like if it's not being actively improved upon but it's still like around and working and

01:48:45   that doesn't seem to be changing like that's that's fine with me and and that's that's usually

01:48:51   a safe bet for me but if it seems like it's not even going to be supported in the near future

01:48:57   that that's when i bail yeah abandoned is not the same as boring yeah the way the way this question

01:49:04   is phrased it's like it's not php versus swift ui it's cold fusion versus swift ui and give it a

01:49:10   choice between cold fusion swift ui marco chooses swift ui although i'll tell you what so one of the

01:49:16   way i spent yesterday uh was uh i there was this bug where forecast my app my mp3 encoder app uh

01:49:25   was outputting weird things or crashing with certain types of wave file inputs like the if

01:49:34   if there was a wave file that was above two to the 31 bytes it's like you know 2.2 gigs or whatever

01:49:41   that is 2.1 whatever it is if it was above that but less than four gigs so in the unsigned 32-bit

01:49:50   integer size range but not the signed range so if it yes so between two and four gigs if it was a

01:49:56   wave file exported from adobe audition uh then the system audio libraries that specifically the uh

01:50:05   ext audio file api but i think pretty much any of these any of apple's platform audio libraries

01:50:11   would misread the end of the wave file and would basically blow right past where the audio sample

01:50:18   data ends and read whatever metadata happened to be after it as if it were audio data and so it

01:50:27   would output like garbage audio and that would you know in forecast that would result in either

01:50:31   garbage audio at the end of a file or in some cases forecast would crash because a function

01:50:36   deep inside the mp3 encoder would try to read that as audio and some assumptions about the way audio

01:50:41   flows would not be met and it would crash um so there's it was a terrible bug and i and i spent

01:50:47   the whole day like looking at you know the specs of this ancient file format of the wave file which

01:50:52   is the the riff wave file format from forever ago um and you know looking up like okay how is this

01:50:59   being read how should this be being read is this is the size of the chunk supposed to be a signed

01:51:04   integer or an unsigned integer you know whose bug is this basically is it mine is it apple's is it

01:51:10   adobe auditions bug who knows and it turns out yeah it turns out it's apples so i had to like

01:51:15   file the bug report and everything but so i was dealing with all these old formats which

01:51:19   one of the things i thought about those but the reason i i brought this up now is i actually went

01:51:24   through and i did the stupid sysdiagnose and everything they wanted from the file to follow

01:51:29   the bug report and i made a sample project so i kept adjusting things between my sample project

01:51:36   and forecast to try to like you know isolate the bug and it turns out it's super easily isolatable

01:51:41   and i made the entire sample project in objective c because it was easiest and fastest to do the

01:51:46   thing i had to prove and forecast is still all objective c and as much as i'm enjoying using

01:51:53   swift for overcast oh here we go my god objective c apps build so fast it was shocking like you and

01:52:03   your compile times oh my god it's like the difference of seconds who cares no it's not

01:52:08   seconds it's it's like for your for your toy app though for your sample project right of course

01:52:13   it's building fast it has like 10 lines of code for forecast too like because forecast is forecast

01:52:19   is a medium-sized app it's not a large app it's but it's you know medium and it builds instantly

01:52:24   and and other simple stuff like like the code auto completion was so fast like all that stuff

01:52:32   so much it was fast debugging was amazing because it not only worked but was fast and it and there

01:52:39   were so many weird like debugging type system error messages and and fights that swift would

01:52:46   pick with me that i didn't have to deal with and like just everything about working with objective

01:52:50   c besides writing it everything else was so fast you get someone else to write it and you'll just

01:52:57   hit the compile button right like the compilation the the the you know debug and run loop actual

01:53:05   debugging all the build the archive everything oh my god so much faster than swift it really

01:53:12   spoiled me and i realized like oh man that's swift has a long long way to go before it's anywhere

01:53:21   near as responsive to to edit and work with as objective c it reminds me of uh rebooting back

01:53:28   into mac os 9 on my power mac blue and white power mac g3 after using the early versions of os 10 for

01:53:34   a while you reboot into mac os 9 like wow my computer's fast look how fast these menus pull

01:53:40   down this is amazing oh yeah technology marches on speaking of your your uh signed 32-bit apple

01:53:47   framework bug you when you i saw your tweet about that and then like not you know 50 tweets later

01:53:52   uh there was another one on a similar i don't know if this has been proved you you figure out that

01:53:56   that's actually the case with your thing but this was uh someone saying that uh berkshire hathaway

01:54:01   uh warren buffett's company uh the shares of berkshire hathaway are so expensive now that

01:54:07   they rolled over the apparent signed 32-bit integer uh they're like they're like 400 000

01:54:13   each or something but they do like you know five decimal places of uh of cents after it or something

01:54:17   like that so it was you know like so that what they said was that apparently it's some kind of

01:54:24   signed 32-bit thing and they got like delisted due to a computer error and they're gonna fix it i find

01:54:28   that somewhat hard to believe but it is coincidental that the number really got up to around you know

01:54:33   the 32-bit value before it screwed up that's pretty funny yeah i guess if they're treating it as an

01:54:38   integer that just is like you know multiplied by 10 000 or whatever yeah wow i mean maybe it wasn't

01:54:44   signed maybe it was just it was 32-bit and then we need to go to 64 it seems like not supported by

01:54:48   the facts because i i can't imagine that's really true but oh yeah look at that 424840 it's real

01:54:55   close if you if you would multiply it because it's 429496 you know that's that's the the 32-bit so

01:55:00   that there are 424840 like they're they're very close to that so if yeah yeah that that makes

01:55:04   total sense like and i mean it's like it's like a reasonable assumption when whenever this system

01:55:08   was designed in the 80s or something someone's saying okay and this is where we're going to

01:55:12   start the share price what's a big enough how many digits is enough for the share price of a company

01:55:16   no one thinks any company's going to have a single share that's going to be worth 400 000 or something

01:55:21   or whatever it just seems ridiculous in 1980 and here we are that's amazing who phd writes i've

01:55:29   been waiting for an apfs deduping space saver script to move from alpha quality to beta quality

01:55:34   or quote reliable enough for my less important data that suck up space have you heard of disk

01:55:40   dedupe on the app store i have not and i don't think you're asking me anyway john what do you

01:55:45   think so this is a an interesting technology enabled by our wonderful modern new file system

01:55:51   that we have here on the mac um it's been around for a long time in the enterprise the idea is that

01:55:57   on every one of our disks but especially on lots of enterprise disks there's some data that's

01:56:01   duplicated right you might think you don't have a lot of like literal duplicate documents

01:56:05   but it's sort of the enterprise level a lot of devices do block level deduping right so if they

01:56:13   can find any part of a file that's exactly the same as some part of another file there's no

01:56:17   reason to store that block of data twice you can just store it once and point to it from both files

01:56:22   and this saves you space right so like say you have a bunch of jpeg images and they have a bunch

01:56:28   of you know metadata inside them and the metadata for a whole bunch of them is similar or the same

01:56:35   like a bunch of pictures taken uh you know at your home and the gps coordinates are always the same

01:56:40   and you know i mean obviously it's not down to the byte level that they're deduping or whatever but

01:56:44   the more granular you can get with your deduping the higher chance you have to find redundancies

01:56:48   and the more space you can save right even just deduping at a file level though sometimes you do

01:56:54   have complete duplicates of files in multiple locations sometimes maybe the os has them maybe

01:56:59   some resources or assets are in multiple places maybe you have two of the same file somewhere like

01:57:04   one in your account and one elsewhere if you have if you have music libraries that are you know if

01:57:09   you have multiple accounts on your computer and the music library is not shared among them with

01:57:12   a single app id you could have the same songs in multiple places because you and your spouse both

01:57:18   have uh the you know complete works of taylor swift separately in your own music libraries on

01:57:24   your mac that's shared between the two of you now you're storing all that data twice wouldn't it be

01:57:28   great if you could store it once uh what apfs has for you here is that apfs can do the this this was

01:57:36   brought up a couple of wcs ago can do the sort of like instantaneous clone of a file

01:57:39   where you can see this in the finder if you make a copy of like a gigantic file and it looks like it

01:57:44   and completes instantly wait a second how did it just duplicate that 4 gig file instantly well it

01:57:49   didn't use the you know i forget what it's called like smart cloning or whatever apfs just says okay

01:57:54   i will just make a second pointer to that file now it's not the same thing as hard links in unix

01:57:58   because hard links in unix you can make an instant quote-unquote instant copy of a file

01:58:02   but they both point to the same data so if you make a 4 gig file and then you make a hard link

01:58:06   to it and you edit either one the original file or the hard link you will change the other right

01:58:13   but with apfs smart cloning instant whatever the hell it's called thing when you make a copy you

01:58:18   don't have to worry that now when i edit one the other one will edit they are independent as soon

01:58:22   as you make a change so they're copy on right right so you instantly get a copy without actually

01:58:27   taking up any more disk space but if you change some part of the copy they will start to diverge

01:58:32   from each other right so it's a safe way to make an instant copy so the way the deduping things work

01:58:37   is they go through in theory they go through your entire hard drive or whatever they find two files

01:58:42   that are the same this is like sort of like the the transporter in star trek i guess or cloning

01:58:47   or whatever they find two files the same they delete one and then they make a smart clone of

01:58:53   the original to the second location right so now i mean it's complicated by the fact that when they

01:59:00   deleted that one it probably didn't actually go away because it probably exists in a snapshot

01:59:04   right and so you didn't actually but pretend snapshots don't exist for a second so you've

01:59:08   got two four gig files that are identical they're taking up eight gigs of space again ignoring

01:59:12   snapshots right you delete one of the four gig files now you've saved four gigs of this space

01:59:17   not really but in theory um and then you clone the original four gig file and that takes up no

01:59:23   more space except for a tiny little bit for the metadata right so now you've you previously those

01:59:28   two four gig files were taking eight gigs and you can make it so those two four gig files are only

01:59:31   taking up four gigs and you don't have to worry about any weird side effects because you can edit

01:59:35   one or the other and there they will be completely independent files they won't be linked to each

01:59:39   other in any way except for the fact that they were originally cloned from each other so in

01:59:43   theory you could save a ton of disk space that way in practice apps like this especially when they

01:59:50   come from a third party and not apple scare me because what i just described uh like and the

01:59:55   reason i'm comparing to the starter transporter is the idea that it destroys all your molecules

01:59:58   in the original location and then sends the information out elsewhere and the reconstitute

02:00:02   them so the transporter essentially kills you there's a million youtube videos in this if you

02:00:05   want to watch it it kills you and then reconstructs you elsewhere aside um in this case it has to

02:00:12   delete one of the files and then it has to do the smart cloning thing to make and and make

02:00:17   reconstitute that file from a clone in exactly the way that it was before including all the dates

02:00:23   all the permissions all the metadata the labels all this other stuff and that scares me a little

02:00:28   bit because it is not a non-destructive operation you must necessarily destroy one of the files and

02:00:33   try to recreate it quote-unquote exactly the way it was so if apple came out with a utility to do

02:00:39   this i might trust it but 30 party ones and i did actually buy this one here i am very wary of i'd

02:00:47   be wary of trying to do it myself now maybe you can make like a command line tool that does it's

02:00:51   not complicated this api for the smart cloning you can just look it up and run it right maybe if

02:00:55   there's files that are as low these are just data files there's no metadata i don't care about them

02:01:00   like they're taylor swift songs right if i screwed them up worst case i can just delete them all and

02:01:04   redown them from itunes like it's not a big deal maybe i would trust it in that scenario but for

02:01:09   now i would say use caution when considering tools like this um the best thing you can say for tools

02:01:15   like this is if you can run them in kind of a read-only mode and say like i'm not going to do

02:01:19   any deduping but just please tell me how many duplicate files do i have and if they could all

02:01:25   be deduped how much space would i save again setting aside snapshots which are a thing thanks

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02:01:41   now the show is over they didn't even mean to begin because it was accidental

02:01:52   oh it was accidental john didn't do any research margo and kacy wouldn't let him

02:01:59   because it was accidental it was accidental and you can find the show notes at atp.fm

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02:02:31   speaking of members i'm glad to see apparently customers finally taking advantage of what i

02:02:50   urged them to do last time i just hey sign up to become a member get the discount buy crap from the

02:02:53   store and then cancel to be fair we don't encourage you to cancel yeah we don't encourage you to get

02:02:58   but like last year like it seemed like nobody was like people were buying from the store but

02:03:02   there was like no increase in members it's like why are you not taking advantage of the free money

02:03:05   that we're offering you here become a member get the discount buy stuff with it and then cancel

02:03:10   or stick around if you want to because can we stop can we stop with the case we know that some

02:03:15   percentage of people will forget to cancel like that's part of the subscription thing we make it

02:03:18   super easy to cancel but if you forget to cancel that's on you because we make it so easy to cancel