424: Ethernet Squid


00:00:00   - So Casey, I feel like I should buy you a drink or something

00:00:03   because I saw on Twitter earlier today

00:00:06   that you are using watch connectivity

00:00:09   in your new secret app that you haven't told us about yet.

00:00:12   - Yeah, WC stands for water closet.

00:00:15   - Yeah, that's right, you know, it does.

00:00:17   - It should, it's that good.

00:00:19   So watch connectivity is the framework

00:00:21   with which you need to use to communicate

00:00:23   between a iPhone app and an Apple Watch app.

00:00:27   And I saw you and James Thompson going back and forth

00:00:30   on Twitter earlier today.

00:00:31   By the way, this is a good time to throw in,

00:00:34   I've actually found a wonderful life hack.

00:00:36   The latest version of Tweetbot requires a subscription

00:00:43   to fully unlock all of its features.

00:00:44   They finally moved from paid up front.

00:00:46   - I already know where this is going.

00:00:48   - They finally moved from paid up front

00:00:49   to like paid once to subscription, which makes total sense.

00:00:52   Like it's, I love Tweetbot, it's a great Twitter app

00:00:55   and it makes total sense that they now do have ongoing costs

00:00:58   even more than they did with just development,

00:01:00   which is its own big thing before.

00:01:02   So it makes total sense to have subscription pricing,

00:01:05   I mean for almost any app these days

00:01:06   that doesn't have any other kind of constant income.

00:01:08   But anyway, so when I installed the new version

00:01:11   and it became read only mode until you subscribe.

00:01:16   And not that I think you shouldn't subscribe,

00:01:18   I think you should, however,

00:01:20   this became an accidental feature for me.

00:01:23   - Yep.

00:01:24   - And now I have by inaction a read only Twitter client

00:01:28   on my phone and I still use it in read write mode,

00:01:31   paid all the way on my desktop.

00:01:34   But on my phone I have a read only Twitter client

00:01:38   and it's kind of amazing.

00:01:40   - Yeah.

00:01:41   - I'll think like, oh I should reply to that

00:01:42   and oh well, they don't have to subscribe.

00:01:44   And I'm like, wait a minute,

00:01:45   I've been loving read only Twitter.

00:01:48   And so I just haven't subscribed only because

00:01:51   I actually love being forced not to engage.

00:01:54   And I'm like, oh this is actually better for me

00:01:55   that I post less and react less to things.

00:01:59   - It's so funny you say that

00:02:00   because I love the Tweetbot guys, I love Tweetbot.

00:02:03   It is one of my favorite and most used apps.

00:02:07   And when they went subscription and when they,

00:02:11   I don't know if they like turned off subscribing

00:02:13   on the beta or something like that.

00:02:14   But basically when I needed to have the real live app.

00:02:16   - Oh, that's how I discovered it.

00:02:18   That's right, 'cause they had the beta

00:02:21   and it was like with TestFlight betas,

00:02:23   you can make like test purchases

00:02:26   but they're not actually real

00:02:27   and they expire in a really short time and everything.

00:02:29   But I've had such bad luck in the past

00:02:31   with TestFlight sandbox purchases

00:02:34   resulting in some kind of bug where like

00:02:36   I get random pop-up dialogues all the time on my phone

00:02:39   saying hey, resubscribe sandbox environment

00:02:41   and having to reenter your store password and everything.

00:02:43   Store kit's a buggy mess.

00:02:44   And so I'm like, all right,

00:02:45   I'm not gonna subscribe to this during the TestFlight

00:02:47   because I don't want to mess up

00:02:49   my sandbox purchase environment with test purchases.

00:02:52   And so I just never subscribed.

00:02:54   And that's how I discovered like,

00:02:56   oh, this is actually really nice.

00:02:59   - Yeah, so what had happened for me was

00:03:02   I had subscribed for free during the TestFlight

00:03:05   and then the TestFlight ended and I,

00:03:08   I don't remember if I went to the release version

00:03:10   or if the TestFlight, like maybe their own servers

00:03:13   like wouldn't bless a subscription or something.

00:03:15   One way or another, I wasn't subscribed then.

00:03:17   And at this point I had not paid them any money.

00:03:20   And so that's fair that I hadn't been subscribed.

00:03:23   But I noticed, wait a second,

00:03:25   I kind of miss being able to fave things

00:03:27   'cause I like to use a hard to fave whatever

00:03:30   as like a very simple like, yep, thanks.

00:03:33   Or I see you or ha ha, I get it,

00:03:35   rather than having to reply to a tweet.

00:03:37   And I really missed that.

00:03:39   And that was it.

00:03:40   (both laughing)

00:03:42   But I did end up subscribing just like a week or two ago.

00:03:45   And I don't know how long the new Tweetbot has been out.

00:03:47   I feel like it's been at least a month,

00:03:49   probably closer to two months.

00:03:50   - Yeah, something like that.

00:03:51   - And I only subscribed like a week ago.

00:03:53   And I echo everything you said, Marco.

00:03:54   I'm not trying to say you shouldn't subscribe.

00:03:56   It's a wonderful, wonderful app.

00:03:58   And what got me to subscribe was that

00:04:01   I kept the official Twitter app on my phone,

00:04:03   which is hot garbage.

00:04:05   It is not meant for me.

00:04:07   Like I shouldn't say it's hot garbage.

00:04:08   It is not meant for me is a better way of phrasing it.

00:04:10   - Oh no, it's also garbage, don't worry.

00:04:13   You don't need to candy coat this one.

00:04:15   - Yeah, porque no los dos, right?

00:04:17   But I would use the official Twitter app

00:04:21   when I really, really, really wanted to reply to something.

00:04:23   But it was more the like hearts and things like that

00:04:28   that I miss, or like DMs for example,

00:04:30   that I really wanted Tweetbot for than it was replying.

00:04:34   And now that you say that, I almost wonder

00:04:37   if the Tweetbot folks could engage some sort of like

00:04:41   almost read only mode where maybe you could like

00:04:44   throw somebody a fav, but that was it.

00:04:46   You couldn't do anything else, you know?

00:04:48   - I kind of like that it prevents me from,

00:04:50   'cause I've also had the same habit.

00:04:52   Like I'll throw a fav on things as kind of like

00:04:55   a acknowledgement or thank you.

00:04:56   But most people who I interact with or who follow me,

00:05:00   I think there's a higher than average chance

00:05:02   of using a third party Twitter client.

00:05:04   And if you use a third party Twitter client,

00:05:06   depending on how you have it set up,

00:05:07   but generally speaking, you don't usually get notified

00:05:10   on favs, because the third party APIs until very recently

00:05:14   didn't have a good way to like stream those in

00:05:16   and be notified all the time.

00:05:17   And so I have a feeling like my favs don't really mean

00:05:21   what I think they mean, and almost no one sees them

00:05:24   in practice, and so it's almost like well,

00:05:27   if you're gonna actually want to give somebody feedback,

00:05:30   you should give them real feedback,

00:05:32   like with a reply or something.

00:05:33   And so I think in practice favs are fairly useless,

00:05:38   and so you might as well not have the ability to leave them

00:05:41   because then you feel like you're leaving feedback

00:05:43   when in many cases the people will never see it.

00:05:45   - And that's completely fair, but it's so funny hearing

00:05:48   you describe this because I went through the exact same

00:05:50   adventure myself, and it was my utter disgust

00:05:54   with the official Twitter app that got me to pay for it.

00:05:57   That sounds bad.

00:05:58   I really, really love Tweetbot, this is not an ad,

00:06:00   I don't think they've ever, ever, ever paid us

00:06:02   to do anything on this show.

00:06:03   I really, really do love it, I'm not trying to imply

00:06:07   anything else, but I do agree that this was a feature,

00:06:10   not a bug in a lot of ways.

00:06:12   (laughing)

00:06:13   So yeah, I totally hear you, but to come back

00:06:16   to the actual point you were trying to make, yes.

00:06:18   I am working on something very slowly,

00:06:20   and I feel like I have like an analog and a half

00:06:23   worth of content about how slowly I've been working

00:06:26   on this app, and I'm actually, we don't need to poll

00:06:29   on this thread right now, but I'm really, really frustrated

00:06:31   and kind of disgusted with myself at how long

00:06:33   it's been taking me because it's really not

00:06:35   a very complicated app, and it really has been taking me

00:06:39   entirely too long to get it out the door.

00:06:41   But nevertheless, one of the things I am realizing

00:06:44   is that even a very, very, very simple app,

00:06:48   if you want to include a widget, if you want to include

00:06:52   a watch app, if you want to include a watch complication,

00:06:55   and I know this is not something novel or new,

00:06:58   but it is stunning the amount of stuff you have to manage

00:07:03   and the amount of code you have to write

00:07:05   in order to make all of those things happen.

00:07:08   And Marco, you more than probably anyone

00:07:10   know exactly what all this is about,

00:07:13   but even for an app like this, which I don't particularly

00:07:18   want to talk about what it is right now,

00:07:19   but suffice to say it's very, very, very, very simple,

00:07:22   the simplest app I've worked on yet.

00:07:24   But nonetheless, I'd like to have a widget,

00:07:27   I would like to have a very basic watch app,

00:07:30   I would like to have a watch complication,

00:07:32   and even using all the modern stuff, it's all Swift UI,

00:07:35   it's all combined where appropriate,

00:07:38   even using all the modern stuff, it is still

00:07:40   an just astronomical amount of work

00:07:43   to get all of these moving parts put together.

00:07:45   And I'm really gonna try hard not to go on a rant

00:07:48   because I've done this too often lately,

00:07:49   but it is very frustrating to go digging through

00:07:53   Apple's documentation, which for watch connectivity

00:07:57   is at least passable, which for Apple is a big compliment.

00:08:01   It's passable documentation, but in the case

00:08:04   of watch connectivity, which is what they call

00:08:06   sending data back and forth between the watch

00:08:08   and the iOS app, there are several different mechanisms

00:08:11   by which you can do it, which in and of itself, it's fine,

00:08:13   I don't have a problem with that.

00:08:14   And there's different trade-offs between each of these

00:08:18   different mechanisms, which here again, okay, that's fine,

00:08:20   but what they don't do a particularly great job of

00:08:23   is telling you, well, if you're doing this sort of thing,

00:08:27   this is what you wanna use.

00:08:28   If you're doing that sort of thing, use the other thing.

00:08:31   If you're doing this third thing,

00:08:33   you should look over there.

00:08:34   And they kinda like get a little vaguely in that direction,

00:08:37   but in the documentation that I saw,

00:08:39   I never really found a good clear document,

00:08:44   a more high level document as to when you're doing this,

00:08:48   choose that, and this feels like the sort of thing

00:08:51   that has probably been covered in a WWDC session

00:08:53   at some point, but--

00:08:54   - It hasn't.

00:08:55   - Okay, nevermind.

00:08:56   - I can tell you the answer there right now.

00:08:57   - Do you wanna know the answer right now?

00:08:58   - I would love to.

00:08:59   - Okay, never use application context, it's unreliable.

00:09:03   - Oh, that's what I was gonna use!

00:09:04   Sorry, well, this is good news, okay.

00:09:06   - You can use the message passing interface

00:09:11   where it's like send message with a dictionary

00:09:12   and you can put arbitrary info in the dictionary.

00:09:14   That works great.

00:09:16   - Now, but slow down though,

00:09:17   because there's two different mechanisms for this.

00:09:19   There's user info, which is not real time,

00:09:23   and then there's what they actually call messages,

00:09:26   which is the watch app is actively running as we speak

00:09:29   and you are actively sending a message back and forth

00:09:32   while both the watch and iPhone apps are running.

00:09:34   So are you talking about that?

00:09:35   - Yes.

00:09:36   - Or are you talking about this user info thing

00:09:37   where it's, ah, it'll get there eventually?

00:09:39   - No, that.

00:09:40   And the other method is file transfers, which never work.

00:09:42   So basically you can't use file transfers

00:09:44   because they don't work reliably.

00:09:46   You can't use application context, it doesn't work reliably.

00:09:49   The only one that works reliably

00:09:50   is when both apps are running,

00:09:52   the one where they communicate with dictionaries

00:09:54   back and forth, the user info dictionaries.

00:09:56   That being said, there's size limits

00:09:59   to what you can put in there.

00:10:00   I underscore found that I think it's something like 65,

00:10:03   64K, something like that.

00:10:04   - Yeah, that I'm not worried about.

00:10:05   - In that ballpark.

00:10:06   And then the watch app,

00:10:09   when it sends a message to the phone app,

00:10:11   the watch app is able to wake up the phone app

00:10:13   with one of those messages, but not vice versa.

00:10:16   The phone app can't wake up the watch app.

00:10:18   - Yep, yep, yep.

00:10:19   - So this is why the entire watch connectivity framework

00:10:23   and its real world performance and pitfalls

00:10:27   and unreliability is one of the biggest reasons

00:10:30   why I've had so many problems developing watch apps

00:10:33   for Overcast over the years.

00:10:35   And it's one of the biggest reasons

00:10:37   why the current watch app,

00:10:39   which was recently rewritten as we discussed,

00:10:41   is mostly avoiding watch connectivity

00:10:45   and trying to communicate mostly over the internet,

00:10:48   over my sync servers instead.

00:10:50   Because anything you can do to avoid watch connectivity

00:10:53   will be better for your mental health.

00:10:56   - Sorry, so you're saying,

00:10:57   have you played with transfer user info?

00:10:59   Because there's application context,

00:11:01   which you've already spoken about,

00:11:02   then there's user info, which seems to be

00:11:04   to be maybe intended to be slightly closer

00:11:07   to real time question, oh no, I'm sorry,

00:11:09   no, I have that wrong.

00:11:10   I think application context is supposed to be closer to real

00:11:12   to see this is what I'm talking about,

00:11:13   it's so hard to tell.

00:11:14   - And if you read the documentation,

00:11:15   it says like, oh, use application context

00:11:17   as basically like a persistent version

00:11:20   of those back and forth really reliable dictionaries

00:11:23   so that if one of the apps isn't running,

00:11:25   it'll pick up the latest application context,

00:11:28   which by the way is only one way,

00:11:29   it only goes from phone to watch, not vice versa.

00:11:32   There's so many little exceptions and gotchas.

00:11:36   So yeah, try to minimize how much you rely on this framework

00:11:42   and the functionality of the phone app

00:11:43   talking to the watch app.

00:11:44   Because any amount of this that you do,

00:11:47   you're gonna regret.

00:11:48   - Super.

00:11:50   - You know, I knew this was my future,

00:11:52   but it's so frustrating.

00:11:53   So actually, if you the listener have had experience

00:11:57   with this and have anic data that you would like

00:12:00   to share with me, I would be happy to accept it via Twitter.

00:12:03   Please don't clog my email.

00:12:04   Via Twitter @CaseyLiss, don't bother Marco,

00:12:07   don't bother John, they didn't ask for this,

00:12:09   I'm asking for this.

00:12:10   I would love to hear your experience because yeah,

00:12:12   I was going to, as after having spoken to James Thompson,

00:12:16   friend of the show, I was going to go down

00:12:18   the application context route,

00:12:19   but if you're telling me that's unreliable and buggy,

00:12:21   then ugh.

00:12:22   And to be fair, the only thing I'm really trying

00:12:24   to transfer is something itty-itty-bitty,

00:12:28   which is basically like, how can I describe this

00:12:31   while still being general?

00:12:33   You can make one of like 15 or 20 choices within the app,

00:12:37   and I basically need to know which choice did you make

00:12:40   and what numeral is associated with that choice.

00:12:42   And gentlemen, I can tell you about it after the show.

00:12:44   But suffice it to say, it's like basically a class name

00:12:48   and an integer, and that's all I need to send.

00:12:50   So in that sense, I'm not worried about like data,

00:12:52   their size limits or anything like that,

00:12:53   but that doesn't necessarily negate your point

00:12:55   that it's just straight up unreliable to go back and forth.

00:12:58   And that's unsurprising but frustrating.

00:13:01   So yeah, documentation.

00:13:03   Some sort of higher level documentation

00:13:06   would be really, really nice.

00:13:07   Like some sort of flow chart or like table.

00:13:10   If you're trying to do this at such and such a speed,

00:13:13   use this.

00:13:14   If you're trying to transfer a file, get screwed,

00:13:16   because you're not gonna end up anywhere happy.

00:13:20   I don't know, it's frustrating.

00:13:22   I just want, all I want at WWDC,

00:13:24   which we'll talk about later,

00:13:25   all I want, please, please,

00:13:26   can we have better documentation?

00:13:28   Please, please.

00:13:30   And yes, in the chat room, from everything I've gathered,

00:13:33   Mark was exactly right, that going through the internet,

00:13:36   through the internet is faster than using watch connectivity

00:13:41   and certainly more reliable if not faster.

00:13:42   - Yes, maybe not.

00:13:43   So well, it can be faster sometimes.

00:13:45   The Apple Watch by default tries to transfer

00:13:48   as much as possible over Bluetooth instead of WiFi,

00:13:51   because Bluetooth is much lower power consuming.

00:13:54   Bluetooth though, it is lower power,

00:13:55   but it's also way slower.

00:13:56   And that's why for file transfers,

00:13:59   downloading a file directly from the internet,

00:14:01   which will usually prefer a WiFi connection,

00:14:04   is faster than transferring the file from the phone

00:14:08   to the watch over the same network.

00:14:10   It's a whole thing.

00:14:13   But the main reason thing, the big reason is the reliability.

00:14:17   Because if the watch tries to talk to the phone,

00:14:20   it's hard to really know whether that communication channel

00:14:23   is open and reliable and fast and not clogged with junk,

00:14:27   as opposed to the internet,

00:14:28   you can just make the connection directly

00:14:29   with the same APIs that you make any other connection with

00:14:31   from iOS and it just works.

00:14:33   - Neat.

00:14:34   - Although background transfers don't,

00:14:35   background downloads rather,

00:14:37   have significantly more restrictions on the watch

00:14:39   and are even less reliable.

00:14:40   That's a lot of fun too.

00:14:42   Well, to see that I'm not too worried about,

00:14:43   for me anyway, but for you, oh, that does not sound fine.

00:14:46   - Yeah, there's basically no way

00:14:49   to make an Apple Watch podcast app

00:14:52   that downloads episodes locally

00:14:55   that works well for everyone.

00:14:57   - Cool.

00:14:58   - I've tried every way to do it,

00:14:59   I've seen other apps that do it various different ways.

00:15:02   Every single app has a large number of five star reviews

00:15:06   saying this new method works great

00:15:07   and a large number of one star reviews saying

00:15:09   they changed it and now it doesn't work for me.

00:15:11   And there's all sorts of conditions and problems

00:15:15   and it's just a nightmare.

00:15:17   So try to avoid making an iOS podcast app

00:15:19   for many reasons like competing with me

00:15:21   but also try to avoid needing a watch app

00:15:25   with local downloads 'cause it's no fun.

00:15:27   (electronic beeping)

00:15:29   - All right, let's cheer each other up a little bit

00:15:31   and let's talk about the Tesla Wheel of Shame

00:15:33   Stencil Edition and in fact other editions as well.

00:15:36   So we have had listeners from around the world

00:15:40   tell us and send us photographic evidence

00:15:43   of all the different kinds of Tesla demarcations

00:15:46   and graffiti that they found.

00:15:47   John, since you've been so quiet recently,

00:15:49   would you like to take us on a tour?

00:15:51   Would you prefer me to do that?

00:15:52   - Actually I had some things to say

00:15:53   about your Twitter client stuff but you went on so long

00:15:56   we probably shouldn't belabor it but I'll just add this.

00:15:58   It's a good thing we have this podcast

00:16:00   because Marco would have loved to have told you

00:16:01   these things on Twitter but he couldn't reply.

00:16:04   (laughing)

00:16:06   You had to get advice from James Thompson instead.

00:16:08   - Yeah and someone in the chat room,

00:16:11   I missed this when it went by before,

00:16:13   had a good suggestion for your app

00:16:15   or a guess at what your app might be.

00:16:17   Tweet of you or read only Twitter clients

00:16:18   so people like Marco can't mess things up.

00:16:20   - There you go, fear gold.

00:16:22   - All right, those are my two Twitter things

00:16:24   but yeah, back to the Wheels of Shame, the important stuff.

00:16:26   I promise this will be the last time.

00:16:27   I know we've had Wheels of Shame

00:16:28   on like three shows in a row or whatever.

00:16:29   They're just funny and they come with pictures

00:16:31   so I find them appealing and I understand this is a podcast

00:16:34   and you don't get to see the pictures

00:16:36   except the ones that Marco makes his show art

00:16:38   but we will describe them for you.

00:16:40   So the first one is the aforementioned stencil one.

00:16:43   We mentioned on the last show,

00:16:45   it looked like a neat stencil.

00:16:46   This particular one we're seeing the stencils on,

00:16:48   it looks like someone cut a hole in a piece of cardboard

00:16:51   and used a can of spray paint through it

00:16:52   and they're very, very tiny stencils.

00:16:54   Just a little Tesla T on the spokes.

00:16:57   I guess that's a deterrent.

00:16:59   It doesn't look as bad as the other sloppy.

00:17:01   It looks like someone, like a kid,

00:17:03   like if you're trying to like decorate your BMX bike

00:17:05   or something and you like spray painted some stencils on it.

00:17:08   It's clear that you were trying to do something neat

00:17:10   but your skills aren't really up to it.

00:17:13   The next one is from San Francisco.

00:17:14   I like the style of this one.

00:17:16   It is haphazard red spray paint but only on half the wheel

00:17:19   and no one would do that on purpose.

00:17:21   So that's definitely a look people wouldn't want on their car.

00:17:26   - Something about San Francisco is haphazard?

00:17:28   - No. - Yeah.

00:17:29   Then there's one from Belvedere, California

00:17:31   where the people who run-- - This one is great.

00:17:32   - People who run this service obviously could not deal

00:17:35   with the idea of making the wheel ugly.

00:17:37   So they tried to do as neat a job as possible

00:17:39   and they took like, what is it,

00:17:40   like a 30 degree slight pie wedge out of it?

00:17:42   Basically one spoke.

00:17:44   - Well it's making the Tesla logo basically.

00:17:46   - Yeah, it's really, I actually like this one a lot.

00:17:47   It's very clever.

00:17:48   - Me too.

00:17:49   Yeah, but most people, the style in cars these days

00:17:52   is not to have asymmetrical coloring on your wheels.

00:17:55   But this has one spoke and the surrounding area

00:17:58   is making a little T in red.

00:17:59   And it looks pretty neatly done.

00:18:01   I don't know of any car maker that makes wheels like this

00:18:04   on purpose so I think it would still encourage you

00:18:06   to swap it for the real one.

00:18:09   But kudos to the person who just

00:18:11   couldn't stand to look sloppy.

00:18:12   - No, I love this one so much.

00:18:14   And this was sent in by Alistair Logee.

00:18:16   And it was, the caption was pizza slice

00:18:20   in Belvedere, California.

00:18:21   Which this is kind of what that looks like.

00:18:23   Not only does it look like a pizza slice,

00:18:25   but it looks like the Tesla logo.

00:18:26   I love this one.

00:18:27   I really think this one's great.

00:18:28   - Yeah, it's very clever.

00:18:29   - And then finally we have one from the Bay Area from 2016.

00:18:32   This may, does this predate the spray paint?

00:18:35   When was your first spray paint job, Marco?

00:18:37   - 2019.

00:18:38   - All right, so maybe they hadn't come on

00:18:40   this spray paint technique.

00:18:42   This one does have a tiny little Tesla logo.

00:18:45   It looks like it could even be a sticker

00:18:47   on like the inside rim of the wheel.

00:18:49   And I think that one probably wouldn't encourage people

00:18:51   to return it 'cause it's just too small and too subtle.

00:18:54   But those were the before times,

00:18:56   before they had the technology

00:18:58   of haphazardly spray painting something.

00:18:59   So thank you everybody from across the world

00:19:02   for sending us your ugly Tesla wheels.

00:19:04   We will treasure these photos forever.

00:19:06   - Something like that.

00:19:07   - Well, we'll laugh at them for a few minutes.

00:19:09   - Yeah, that's more accurate.

00:19:10   But Marco won't be sending you any hearts,

00:19:12   I can tell you that right now.

00:19:13   - Oh, that was my other comment on the Twitter client thing.

00:19:16   - Oh, okay, go ahead.

00:19:17   - Not to belabor or something that I'm sure you all know,

00:19:20   but if you want to not reply to tweets,

00:19:24   you can do that for free in any Twitter client.

00:19:27   You don't have to have a client

00:19:29   that literally stops you from doing it.

00:19:31   I understand that having the software help you is good,

00:19:35   but at the point where you're wishing for a mode

00:19:37   in an application that will let you fave and not reply,

00:19:39   that's the point when I say it's time for you

00:19:40   to invoke some tiny degree of self control.

00:19:43   - Never. - What is that?

00:19:45   I don't understand what those words mean.

00:19:47   Oh goodness, all right, so Harrison Krebs wrote us

00:19:50   this missive with regard to a genuinely frustrating story

00:19:54   about AirPods, Macs, warranty repairs.

00:19:57   Generally speaking, I don't like to give too much attention

00:20:00   to these sorts of things 'cause we are not here

00:20:01   to be everyone's crusaders, I'm sorry.

00:20:03   However, this is a good public service announcement.

00:20:06   So in summary, Harrison went and did a warranty repair

00:20:10   on bricked AirPods Macs, but when he got them back,

00:20:13   they didn't include his ear cushions,

00:20:15   which is not desirable at all.

00:20:18   So apparently it's Apple's policy to remove the ear cushions

00:20:21   and not send them back after a repair,

00:20:24   which Harrison didn't know,

00:20:25   and apparently the Apple Store employee

00:20:27   was supposed to tell Harrison that

00:20:29   and just kind of didn't.

00:20:31   So this is a public service announcement for everyone.

00:20:33   If you're sending in your AirPods Macs

00:20:35   for warranty repairs, hey, guess what?

00:20:37   You're gonna wanna take those ear cups off.

00:20:39   - Or at least ask the person at the store about it

00:20:41   because who knows if this is a universal policy or whatever,

00:20:44   but just FYI, it's a good thing to know

00:20:46   because Apple Store employees are people too.

00:20:48   Maybe they forgot to tell you,

00:20:50   maybe that person didn't even know

00:20:51   they weren't gonna come back.

00:20:52   I actually kind of understand the policy

00:20:55   of not sending you back your ear things.

00:20:57   I think they should come back with brand new ones

00:21:00   rather than just taking your old ones and giving them back.

00:21:03   But either way, since they come off so easily,

00:21:05   if the Apple Store employee had just said,

00:21:07   oh, by the way, you'll wanna take these home

00:21:09   because our policy is not to send them back,

00:21:12   that would have solved the problem.

00:21:13   And I assume that Harrison contacted the Apple Store again

00:21:16   and said, hey, WTF, and got new ear pads to replace it

00:21:21   because it was the store's fault.

00:21:21   They didn't tell them they would be gone.

00:21:23   - Yeah, and this is actually fairly consistent

00:21:26   with Apple's other repair methods.

00:21:29   Whenever you send anything to Apple for repair,

00:21:31   they don't want any accessories that go with it.

00:21:34   And we don't think of ear pads as accessories to headphones.

00:21:37   You kind of can't use it without them.

00:21:38   But for Apple repair parlance,

00:21:41   if you send a watch in for repair,

00:21:42   you remove the strap first or they do it for you

00:21:45   and they hand it back to you.

00:21:46   If you send in a laptop, you don't send the power cord.

00:21:48   It is consistent with that.

00:21:49   So I don't consider this outrageous thing,

00:21:52   how dare they not send your ear cups back.

00:21:54   It's simply like, oh, the store person messed up.

00:21:56   And that happens, human error.

00:21:58   And yeah, as John said, I'm sure they,

00:21:59   I'm sure talking to the store people,

00:22:01   I'm sure they resolved it.

00:22:02   But the policy is something that you might not expect

00:22:05   because you don't think of headphone ear pads

00:22:08   as an accessory that you just pop off whenever you want to.

00:22:12   But here we are.

00:22:13   We are sponsored this week by Linode,

00:22:17   my favorite place to run servers.

00:22:19   Whether you're working on a personal project

00:22:21   or managing an entire enterprise's infrastructure,

00:22:24   you deserve simple, affordable,

00:22:25   and accessible cloud computing solutions

00:22:27   that allow you to take your project to the next level.

00:22:30   You can simplify your cloud infrastructure

00:22:32   with Linode's Linux virtual machines

00:22:34   and develop, deploy, and scale your modern applications

00:22:37   faster and easier.

00:22:39   You can get started today on Linode

00:22:41   with $100 in free credit.

00:22:44   Find all the details for that at linode.com/atp

00:22:47   or texting ATP to 474747.

00:22:51   That'll get you access to $100 in free credit.

00:22:54   Linode is a great web host.

00:22:56   I've run all my servers there for a long time now,

00:22:59   I think something like eight or nine years,

00:23:01   and they've just been wonderful.

00:23:02   I've used a lot of web hosts before that

00:23:04   and it's such an amazing value

00:23:06   and the servers are really powerful

00:23:08   and their support is great whenever I've needed it

00:23:10   and you have all sorts of resource levels

00:23:12   and specialties to choose from,

00:23:14   things like dedicated compute instances,

00:23:16   GPU compute instances, high memory plans,

00:23:19   their new S3 compatible object storage,

00:23:22   managed Kubernetes, so much more.

00:23:24   They have 11 global data centers

00:23:26   for you to put your servers in

00:23:27   and pick between 24/7, 365 support,

00:23:30   no support tiers or handoffs,

00:23:32   like you're always just getting the right person

00:23:34   regardless of your plan size.

00:23:36   It's just a great web host.

00:23:37   See for yourself at linode.com/atp

00:23:41   and click on the create free account button to get started

00:23:44   or you can text ATP to 474747.

00:23:48   Get started on Linode today.

00:23:50   Thank you so much to Linode for being an awesome web host

00:23:53   and hosting all my servers and for sponsoring our show.

00:23:56   - All right, so I have good news and bad news for everyone,

00:24:02   especially the two of you.

00:24:04   There's going to be WWDC this year, which is great,

00:24:07   but not in person, which at least for Marco and me,

00:24:11   I think is bad news.

00:24:12   John, I know you're just devastated

00:24:14   that you don't have to travel to California this year

00:24:16   for the second consecutive year.

00:24:18   Gosh, when was the last time we all saw each other?

00:24:20   Was it WWDC in 2019?

00:24:23   - Yeah, maybe.

00:24:23   - Anyway, there was no question about it.

00:24:25   The WWDC wasn't gonna be in person.

00:24:27   I think we all knew it was gonna be remote,

00:24:28   but it's been announced.

00:24:29   They announced the dates.

00:24:30   Interestingly, I guess it doesn't really matter

00:24:32   'cause whatever, it's remote.

00:24:34   And by the way, it's also free like it was last year, right?

00:24:36   So it's all online.

00:24:37   Anybody can do it, right?

00:24:39   And they announced the dates,

00:24:40   but they didn't do anything else really.

00:24:42   I mean, maybe there's nothing else to do.

00:24:43   Did they have us register last year?

00:24:45   I don't even remember.

00:24:46   - No. - I don't remember.

00:24:47   - No, there was no user input basically.

00:24:50   - Yeah, so it's just free to everybody.

00:24:51   Here it is.

00:24:52   It's here again.

00:24:53   The only thing we collectively had to look at

00:24:55   was the little invitation graphics,

00:24:57   which people got a little bit obsessed with as we do.

00:25:00   I mean, it's not an invitation.

00:25:01   It's just a, I don't know, a PR image.

00:25:05   And this year, it's a bunch of, how does Apple say it?

00:25:07   Did they say Memoji or Memoji?

00:25:09   They say Memoji, right?

00:25:10   - I believe it varies by presenter, right?

00:25:12   - Yes, and I think it was officially Memoji,

00:25:15   and I used to jokingly call it Memoji.

00:25:17   And then I think Tim at some point said Memoji,

00:25:20   and I felt like I could claim victory at that point.

00:25:23   - Yeah, anyway, it's got a bunch of those faces

00:25:26   looking into a laptop that's slowly opening

00:25:28   in the same way that Craig Federighi did in the M1 video,

00:25:31   like with all those memes of cracking open the M1 laptop

00:25:34   and having the light shine in his face.

00:25:37   And what people got obsessed with in this thing

00:25:39   is the fact that all of the people

00:25:42   who are opening the laptop,

00:25:43   but it's kind of from the same angle as the Craig thing,

00:25:45   they're all wearing glasses,

00:25:46   and everyone's like, oh, glasses,

00:25:48   how can they all be wearing glasses?

00:25:50   What are the odds of that?

00:25:50   Apple glasses, AR glasses, so on and so forth.

00:25:52   And then reflected in the glasses

00:25:54   are the images of various iOS-style application icons,

00:25:59   which doesn't make a lot of sense,

00:26:00   but I guess the Xcode's in there too.

00:26:01   Anyway, a bunch of application icons

00:26:04   reflected in the glasses, right?

00:26:06   Which handily explains why everybody has glasses,

00:26:09   because you can't have things reflected

00:26:10   in people's glasses without glasses.

00:26:11   You could reflect them in their gigantic eyeballs,

00:26:14   'cause Memoji have giant eyes,

00:26:16   because they're very cartoony.

00:26:18   I feel like what no one was talking about,

00:26:21   except for maybe one person I saw on Twitter

00:26:23   had some part of this,

00:26:24   the glasses don't have any,

00:26:27   oh, what are they called?

00:26:27   Temples, right?

00:26:29   Temples. - The sticks?

00:26:30   - The sticks. - Oh, no sticks.

00:26:31   That's true. - At least some of the glasses

00:26:33   do not have temples.

00:26:34   They virtually float,

00:26:35   not touching any part of the person's face,

00:26:37   because it's a stylized representation,

00:26:40   and it's not literal.

00:26:41   So anyway, that's all we've got to go on.

00:26:43   I don't think this says anything one way or the other

00:26:46   about Apple Glasses.

00:26:46   We all know they're working on AR stuff.

00:26:48   Is this the year they announce it?

00:26:50   If it is, I don't think this image has anything to do with it

00:26:52   because all of the rumors,

00:26:53   especially since all of the rumors about AR stuff

00:26:55   have not been about the imminent release

00:26:58   of things that look like glasses people would wear.

00:27:00   They've been more like the semi-imminent

00:27:03   in the next year or two release of a giant VR headset

00:27:05   that looks like an Oculus,

00:27:07   but weighs a lot less, or whatever.

00:27:08   Anyway, so I read nothing into this

00:27:10   other than the fact that you need glasses

00:27:11   to have reflections, and that's about it.

00:27:15   - Every time there's an Apple event,

00:27:17   people always try to read into the art,

00:27:19   and usually if there's some kind of obvious pun

00:27:24   with the name of a special event,

00:27:27   that usually is relevant to the products,

00:27:29   but the artwork chosen is almost never relevant.

00:27:33   And for something like WVDC, where--

00:27:34   - No, it's relevant in an obvious way.

00:27:38   It's not relevant in a sneaky way.

00:27:40   When the art is relevant, it's relevant in,

00:27:42   one of them was the little rotating silver Apple

00:27:45   that had a Mac OS behind it or something,

00:27:48   and it was because they were gonna talk about Mac OS.

00:27:51   Like whatever the most obvious,

00:27:52   and this one, the most obvious interpretation is,

00:27:55   hey, they're playing on the Craig peeking into the laptop

00:27:58   from the M1 meme, right?

00:27:59   - I would assume so, yeah.

00:28:00   - And that's true, that's absolutely true.

00:28:02   That's what they're doing, right?

00:28:04   But you don't need to go hunting then,

00:28:06   okay, well that seems too obvious,

00:28:07   what else could it be, right?

00:28:09   So, I don't know.

00:28:12   And that's not to say they're not gonna do the AR thing,

00:28:14   because that AR like goggle thing,

00:28:16   seems like it's actually getting close to being a product.

00:28:19   If they decide to release it at all,

00:28:20   it seems like the tech might be ready

00:28:22   not to release the product,

00:28:23   but to, at your developer conference,

00:28:25   tell everybody, hey, in eight months,

00:28:27   we're gonna potentially release this thing,

00:28:29   so start developing now, here are all the new APIs.

00:28:32   Like that could happen, but if that happens,

00:28:34   this advertising campaign has probably nothing to do with it

00:28:38   and if it has anything to do with it,

00:28:39   it is the most tangential sly nod.

00:28:43   There's even the possibility that if the AR thing

00:28:45   is not coming out until three years from now,

00:28:46   they would still put glasses on everybody,

00:28:48   because they've been working on this glasses stuff

00:28:50   internally for ages, so it's kind of cheeky to say,

00:28:53   I know that you know that we've been working on glasses,

00:28:55   so here, everyone has glasses.

00:28:56   But anyway, here are our announcements for this year.

00:28:59   - Yeah, and the only thing that they've kind of announced,

00:29:03   at least obliquely, is they said,

00:29:05   this year's conference will include announcements

00:29:07   from the keynote and State of the Union stages,

00:29:08   online sessions, one-to-one labs

00:29:10   offering technical guidance, and new ways for developers

00:29:12   to interact with Apple engineers and designers

00:29:14   to learn about the latest frameworks and technologies.

00:29:17   That is all we know, it could be something

00:29:19   totally silly and lame, but maybe it isn't,

00:29:22   and I'm curious to see what that means.

00:29:23   - Yeah, I forgot about that, that was the,

00:29:26   I think it was what I was getting at with the announcement

00:29:28   is no one was forcing them to announce this now,

00:29:31   since no one's gonna be traveling,

00:29:32   it's not like you need to make plans

00:29:33   and you don't need to register

00:29:34   and you don't need to do anything else.

00:29:36   But then why have an announcement

00:29:38   without concrete information about certain things?

00:29:40   Like they still wanna have a tease aspect of it,

00:29:43   so it's like we've come up with a new way

00:29:44   for you to do stuff with us somehow,

00:29:48   but we're not gonna tell you yet.

00:29:49   Maybe they haven't figured it out yet,

00:29:50   but plenty of time to figure it out.

00:29:52   But I think it is important,

00:29:55   if Apple continues to do these this way,

00:29:57   to try to recapture some of the things

00:29:59   that are good about being there in person.

00:30:02   Maybe they'll have a clubhouse.

00:30:04   - Oh my. - Or everyone will just join.

00:30:06   As if we'll still care about clubhouse by June.

00:30:08   - Didn't they do last, wasn't last WSC, didn't they do WebEx?

00:30:12   - I thought so for labs, yeah.

00:30:14   - And that is so reflective of Apple's non-hipness

00:30:19   when it comes to internet stuff that they would use.

00:30:24   Is it the bottom of the barrel

00:30:25   corporate teleconferencing software?

00:30:28   Probably close, I think I've used them all.

00:30:30   Maybe Link, L-Y-N-C is the bottom of the barrel.

00:30:33   I don't know if that's still made, that Microsoft product.

00:30:35   - Isn't that just sucked into Skype now or no?

00:30:37   - Yeah, I don't know.

00:30:38   But anyway, WebEx is not--

00:30:39   - It certainly is sucked.

00:30:41   - WebEx is not cool. (laughing)

00:30:42   WebEx isn't cool, WebEx isn't hip.

00:30:44   WebEx is a bad app.

00:30:46   WebEx destroys your laptop's battery.

00:30:48   Presumably the only reason Apple's using it

00:30:51   is because Apple has no replacement themselves

00:30:54   'cause they have, remember when it was like iChat

00:30:57   where you do iChat with multiple people

00:30:58   and share a document, they don't have that anymore.

00:31:00   And because presumably it's what they use internally

00:31:04   for Apple corporate stuff, but boy, what a shame.

00:31:07   That is a terrible application and it's in general

00:31:09   a terrible experience to do labs through WebEx.

00:31:13   If Apple had its own cool application

00:31:17   that does the type of thing that WebEx does

00:31:20   and Skype does and Slack does and Teams does

00:31:24   and I don't know, name every other app

00:31:26   that lets you do multi-person teleconferences.

00:31:28   I'm sure they would use it instead, but they don't.

00:31:31   So it's WebEx.

00:31:32   So that makes me wonder what like,

00:31:34   oh, we have a cool new way for you

00:31:35   to interact with engineers.

00:31:37   Is it still WebEx?

00:31:38   Now we're using Microsoft Teams.

00:31:41   That's a cool new way.

00:31:42   Anyway, I look forward to see what it is.

00:31:44   - Yeah, and before everyone writes us,

00:31:45   yes, we are aware that FaceTime video exists,

00:31:48   but to the best of my knowledge,

00:31:49   you can't do like screen sharing

00:31:50   or anything like that on FaceTime.

00:31:52   So that doesn't really work for this particular context.

00:31:55   - Count yourself lucky if you don't know

00:31:57   what problem these apps are solving

00:31:59   because they solve a problem

00:32:00   that most individual people don't have,

00:32:02   but if you work for a business

00:32:03   and have been working from home,

00:32:05   especially in a company that normally doesn't work from home,

00:32:06   you know the problem they solve,

00:32:08   which is essentially how do I have meetings

00:32:10   when not in person?

00:32:12   And meetings don't just involve people talking to each other

00:32:16   and seeing each other.

00:32:17   Meetings always involve presenting things

00:32:19   and sharing documents and all that good stuff.

00:32:23   - Yeah, I'm excited to see what's announced.

00:32:26   I'm excited to see what a second cut

00:32:29   at an online conference is.

00:32:31   I'm really sad, okay, so COVID notwithstanding,

00:32:34   there's no fricking chance if it was in person

00:32:36   that I would be going this year,

00:32:37   but leaving that aside, I'm sad not to be seeing you guys.

00:32:41   I'm sad not to be seeing other friends that typically went.

00:32:44   I'm sad not to be doing a live show.

00:32:45   I know that John, really, COVID-19 is John's fault

00:32:49   because this is the length that John is willing to go to

00:32:51   to avoid doing a live WWDC.

00:32:53   It was all down to him.

00:32:54   It wasn't anything from overseas.

00:32:57   It wasn't a bat.

00:32:58   It wasn't a lab.

00:32:58   It was John, Syracuse.

00:33:00   It was his fault.

00:33:01   I can't blame him.

00:33:02   All because he doesn't like ATP live shows.

00:33:05   But nevertheless, I am sad to be missing out on that.

00:33:07   I really hope that next year, if it's safe,

00:33:12   that they bring everyone back in.

00:33:15   I am super skeptical.

00:33:17   I think, honestly, if they were to do

00:33:20   an in-person anything for WWDC,

00:33:22   I think they would bring press in for the keynote,

00:33:26   and then maybe that would be it.

00:33:28   I would love for them to do an old-school style WWDC,

00:33:31   and certainly, I just noticed as we were talking

00:33:33   that at the tail end of their announcement,

00:33:35   they said, "To support the local economy,

00:33:37   "even while WWDC '21 is hosted online,

00:33:40   "and as part of its $100 million racial equity

00:33:42   "and justice initiative, Apple's also committing

00:33:44   "one million dollars to SJ Aspires,

00:33:46   "an education equity initiative

00:33:47   "launched by the city of San Jose."

00:33:49   So they're still pouring some amount of money

00:33:52   into San Jose, which implies to me

00:33:55   that they hope one day it'll come back,

00:33:57   but I don't know, we'll see.

00:33:59   - Marco, 2022, what do you think is gonna happen?

00:34:02   You think it'll be in person, somewhat in person,

00:34:04   not all in person, what's your guess?

00:34:06   - That's a good question.

00:34:07   This year, yeah, I had no doubt

00:34:10   this year would be remote as well,

00:34:11   because even though the US is doing a pretty impressive job

00:34:15   at the speed of our vaccinations being deployed out,

00:34:19   it is, after all, a worldwide conference,

00:34:21   not a US-only conference.

00:34:22   Many people come from other countries,

00:34:24   and the rate of vaccinations worldwide

00:34:28   is not as fast as it's happening in the US, unfortunately,

00:34:31   for lots of reasons.

00:34:32   - Or there are other countries that don't have

00:34:34   the problem that we have at all,

00:34:35   and wouldn't wanna come to the US,

00:34:36   because they have zero cases.

00:34:38   - Yeah, very true.

00:34:39   So anyway, it makes total sense this year.

00:34:41   I have a feeling that next year,

00:34:44   live events like this will be happening on a regular basis,

00:34:47   and it won't, there's some question,

00:34:50   when we will get "back to normal" in most ways,

00:34:55   and I think we're gonna see a lot of that

00:34:56   this summer and fall,

00:34:58   but I think by next summer,

00:35:00   it's gonna be, we're gonna be pretty back to normal.

00:35:02   I don't think that's an unreasonable bet

00:35:04   to make at this point.

00:35:06   - An interesting thing about what they've done

00:35:07   with the live thing last year is that they,

00:35:10   in the lead up to that, and all of the,

00:35:11   you know, the quote-unquote normal years before COVID,

00:35:14   they slowly essentially made the free, real-time,

00:35:18   online-for-everybody version of WWDC

00:35:21   by simply broadcasting the sessions as they air,

00:35:24   live to everybody for free, without needing to register.

00:35:26   Right? That, you know, obviously, when they,

00:35:29   you know, last year, they recorded them ahead of time,

00:35:32   and there's a very different vibe

00:35:33   from a recorded ahead-of-time produced video

00:35:35   than a live one, but practically speaking,

00:35:37   if you just want the information,

00:35:39   and you don't wanna pay anything,

00:35:40   and you don't wanna travel, Apple was already there.

00:35:43   So if they go back to in-person, which again,

00:35:45   you know, I buy the deal that giving money to San Jose,

00:35:48   like, what, is Apple just gonna perpetually give money

00:35:51   to San Jose every year just out of, you know, good memories?

00:35:53   It seems like they still want to have a relationship

00:35:55   with the city, which probably means

00:35:57   they're gonna go back to in-person,

00:35:58   and they'll go back to, you know, it's like,

00:36:01   well, why not keep the online thing for everybody?

00:36:03   Well, they were already doing that, essentially.

00:36:04   The only difference is there's no way for online people

00:36:07   to get on a Webex with an Apple engineer,

00:36:11   and in that respect, like, whatever the capacity is

00:36:15   for Apple to, for Apple engineers to interact with people,

00:36:19   if that capacity is saturated by the in-person people

00:36:23   who pay money and go to San Jose,

00:36:26   maybe there's none left for Webex meetings.

00:36:29   Like, I wouldn't say that you should take time away

00:36:32   from the people who paid to be there,

00:36:33   because they pay all that money and traveled,

00:36:35   and so they should get something for that,

00:36:37   but it does seem more equitable to essentially

00:36:41   a raffle-off lottery worldwide for anybody

00:36:44   who attends for free, like they were doing,

00:36:47   like they did last year,

00:36:48   'cause it wasn't some kind of, like, slots are open,

00:36:50   and it's just a lottery, and you just,

00:36:51   if you want help, you file in.

00:36:52   There was no preferential system, right?

00:36:55   - For admission? - For labs?

00:36:57   - For labs, yeah. - Oh, for labs.

00:36:58   - I don't know, I didn't do any.

00:37:00   - Yeah, I, no, did I do, I don't think I did any last year.

00:37:03   I'm not sure, to be honest with you.

00:37:04   - Yeah, but anyway, like, that's the tension

00:37:07   that Apple has here.

00:37:08   There's a limited capacity,

00:37:09   there's only so many Apple engineers, right,

00:37:11   and so there's a limited capacity of help they can give.

00:37:13   Who should they give that help to?

00:37:14   Should it be a random distribution of all developers

00:37:17   with no barriers to entry

00:37:18   other than having an internet connection

00:37:19   like it was last year, or should it be for the people

00:37:22   who could afford to pay the high entrance fee

00:37:24   and travel to WWDC to get that help, right?

00:37:29   I don't know, it's not a clear-cut answer there.

00:37:30   Like, maybe you could say the people who are there in person,

00:37:33   you know, some portion of the help

00:37:35   will go to the people who are there in person,

00:37:37   and when you do get one in person,

00:37:38   you get the benefit of, you know,

00:37:40   person-to-person interaction

00:37:41   instead of doing it through Webex,

00:37:43   but some portion should be given

00:37:44   to people who couldn't attend,

00:37:45   because otherwise it's not a particularly

00:37:47   equitable distribution of Apple's limited amount of help.

00:37:51   - You know, I thought I'd heard rumblings last year,

00:37:53   the first virtual year,

00:37:54   that they actually had way more labs,

00:37:57   bandwidth, poor choice of words,

00:37:59   way more labs availability than they did takers

00:38:02   on people who wanted to go to the labs.

00:38:03   - I saw that, I remember, at the end of last year,

00:38:05   they're like, "Hey, we've got labs open

00:38:07   "if anybody wants them."

00:38:08   I mean, maybe it's like that in person, too,

00:38:09   towards the tail end of the week.

00:38:10   I don't partake of the labs,

00:38:12   so I don't know what the experience is like,

00:38:14   but if there is excess capacity,

00:38:16   that argues even more strongly for, like,

00:38:18   give all the excess capacity to people online, right?

00:38:21   So have people there in person,

00:38:23   and if there's no person takers, certainly, you know,

00:38:25   it's like, everything is like COVID vaccines.

00:38:27   If you've got leftover vaccines,

00:38:28   just give them to whoever wants them, right?

00:38:31   Hal, just call Casey up so we can yell at you

00:38:33   about documentation for an hour.

00:38:34   - Yeah, that sounds perfect.

00:38:36   Sign me up.

00:38:36   I will yell at anyone at Apple about documentation.

00:38:39   - You're yelling at the wrong people.

00:38:40   Don't yell at the developers.

00:38:41   - That's true.

00:38:42   - Yeah, well, sometimes you yell at the developers,

00:38:44   not for documentation,

00:38:45   but there is a lot of value in going to the labs

00:38:49   and finding the one engineer who's there

00:38:51   for your kind of obscure API,

00:38:53   and if you have some kind of question or request,

00:38:56   you can actually just tell them,

00:38:57   and it actually can get you somewhere.

00:38:59   - I would actually love to do that.

00:39:01   I would love to find the,

00:39:02   this is the problem.

00:39:04   This is the problem in my real company, in my real job,

00:39:07   and I imagine in many jobs,

00:39:09   and also in the case of the one thing

00:39:11   that I would wanna talk to Apple engineers about,

00:39:14   ownership, who owns this part of the thingy?

00:39:17   Who owns this API?

00:39:18   Who owns this framework?

00:39:19   Who owns this application?

00:39:20   And very often, the depressing answer

00:39:22   in large corporations is, I don't know.

00:39:24   - Oh, no, that's not true at Apple, though.

00:39:25   - That's a bad situation.

00:39:27   - That's not true at Apple.

00:39:29   - Apple has different failure modes, like nobody right now.

00:39:32   - That's what I'm saying.

00:39:34   That's what I mean by I don't know,

00:39:36   not like, oh, just this person doesn't have the knowledge,

00:39:38   that the company collectively does not know,

00:39:41   because if the application or framework is not broken,

00:39:46   and it's an older thing,

00:39:47   and it's in between the purview of two possible groups,

00:39:50   you would think, of course they have to know.

00:39:52   What about when someone files a bug?

00:39:54   Whose queue does that go into?

00:39:55   Obviously, every company knows who owns everything.

00:39:57   I can tell you from experience, that is not true.

00:40:00   What happens is, there may be a queue for those things,

00:40:03   but then different parts of the organization fight over

00:40:05   who really owns it,

00:40:06   because nobody wants that crap in their queue for real,

00:40:08   so it just ends up being a shoving contest of like,

00:40:11   I'm not taking this book.

00:40:12   I'm not taking this, it's not my thing.

00:40:13   Well, it's not your thing, but let's not look at this.

00:40:15   This is my charter of my scrum team.

00:40:17   I don't know, it's just, it is never ending, right?

00:40:19   So for parts of the OS,

00:40:21   like the one or two APIs that I need to work

00:40:24   for Switch Glass in front and center,

00:40:25   that apparently nobody owns and nobody cares about,

00:40:27   because they don't work reliably, who owns that?

00:40:30   That probably hasn't changed in literally a decade.

00:40:33   Try to find the group,

00:40:34   oh, it's probably Core OS, the catch-all group,

00:40:36   and then Core OS is like, uh-uh,

00:40:38   don't try to hoist that on us.

00:40:39   We don't do anything with that.

00:40:39   We haven't touched that in years, it's fine.

00:40:41   There's no showstopper bugs, there's no sub ones,

00:40:42   get that out of my face.

00:40:44   Anyway, I just want like two APIs to work reliably,

00:40:49   'cause they're like the only two APIs

00:40:50   my simple little apps use, and they don't, and I'm sad.

00:40:53   - I'm so sorry, Jon.

00:40:55   So my understanding of how Apple works internally,

00:40:59   which granted is hearsay upon hearsay,

00:41:02   but for things that matter,

00:41:04   and I think this is maybe where the difference is

00:41:05   between you and me, for things that matter,

00:41:08   there is, and it's so funny talking to people at Apple,

00:41:11   because just like in governmental contracting,

00:41:13   everything is just acronym soup.

00:41:15   There's the ABC and the QRS and the TUV and the WIZ,

00:41:19   and half the time, if I'm talking to somebody-

00:41:20   - The DRI, you're looking for the DRI.

00:41:22   - Exactly right.

00:41:23   So that's exactly what I was driving toward,

00:41:24   is there's the DRI, the directly responsible individual.

00:41:27   And my understanding, again, hearsay,

00:41:30   is that there is one person that may be an engineer,

00:41:34   maybe a product or a project manager or project owner,

00:41:37   I forget what the term is they use internally,

00:41:39   but basically one person that the buck stops there.

00:41:42   And for anything that matters,

00:41:44   my understanding is there really is

00:41:45   a directly responsible individual

00:41:46   for anything that they care about.

00:41:49   But Jon, to your point a moment ago,

00:41:51   perhaps the things that you care about

00:41:53   are not the things that they care about,

00:41:55   and maybe there isn't a DRI for that sort of thing.

00:41:57   Or alternatively, there's a DRI,

00:41:58   but they really just could not care less

00:42:00   about your particular problem.

00:42:02   - That's probably what it is.

00:42:03   And speaking of that, I should just clear this out

00:42:05   'cause it's been in our potential after show topics in ages,

00:42:08   so I'll just finish clearing this out.

00:42:09   So one of the APIs that I'm talking about,

00:42:12   maybe I'll leave some more on field,

00:42:13   but one of them is the API for NS running applications,

00:42:18   which is a very old API that probably is from the next days

00:42:20   that in theory tells you information

00:42:22   about all the applications that are running.

00:42:23   And you can imagine I would need that information

00:42:25   for Switch Glass and potentially also for front and center.

00:42:28   And this application was described by a very well-known

00:42:32   and experienced Apple Mac platform developer

00:42:35   as the worst API on the Mac.

00:42:37   And I was told this before I began my work,

00:42:39   and after I started working on his apps,

00:42:41   I think that person may be right.

00:42:42   And this is the person who has been working on the Mac

00:42:44   for literal decades.

00:42:45   So when they say the worst API on the Mac,

00:42:47   they're not just like a new developer who tried something.

00:42:49   I don't wanna name names because this person didn't tell me.

00:42:51   But anyway, this is a very experienced Mac developer

00:42:54   calling this the worst API on the Mac.

00:42:56   And I will put in the show notes the radar numbers,

00:42:59   the one, two, three, four, five, six radar numbers

00:43:02   I got thrown at me from this person

00:43:03   when this person was telling me about the API.

00:43:05   They said, this is the worst API I've been filing.

00:43:07   These are radars, not feedbacks,

00:43:09   'cause it was before the feedback error.

00:43:11   These bugs have been there for who knows how many years.

00:43:13   They're never getting fixed.

00:43:15   And all the bugs that I was finding with it,

00:43:17   I doubt they were gonna fix too.

00:43:18   So if you are inside Apple and you think you know

00:43:21   who owns NS running application,

00:43:23   an API that no one cares about,

00:43:24   and that it works well enough

00:43:25   that no one needs to care about,

00:43:27   here's six radar numbers, none of which are for me.

00:43:29   Six radar numbers that you can look at

00:43:31   and then you can decide once again

00:43:33   that they're not important enough to fix.

00:43:35   (laughing)

00:43:36   - I'm so sorry, Jon, I really honestly am.

00:43:39   I really, really honestly am.

00:43:40   I don't know what's worse actually,

00:43:42   and I go back and forth.

00:43:45   Is it worse to have something that a lot of people rely on,

00:43:50   like, hmm, watch connectivity,

00:43:52   that they just really don't care to fix?

00:43:54   Or is it worse to have something

00:43:57   that nobody else cares about,

00:43:59   so you care that much more,

00:44:02   but they still don't care to fix?

00:44:04   - And actually, let me throw in my thing here too,

00:44:07   because I think that is an interesting example

00:44:09   of what you just described.

00:44:10   The one API that I want to work,

00:44:12   well, there's a bunch of APIs that do this,

00:44:14   but the thing I want to accomplish on the Mac

00:44:16   that is currently impossible to accomplish

00:44:18   in a reliable way is to tell an application

00:44:21   to bring all of its windows forward.

00:44:23   It seems like an important feature

00:44:25   of the two applications that I make,

00:44:26   and there are multiple APIs to do that.

00:44:29   I haven't tried the accessibility APIs,

00:44:31   because you have to ask for accessibility permission

00:44:33   to do that, and maybe I could do it manually that way,

00:44:36   but this is another thing about sandboxing

00:44:38   in the Mac App Store.

00:44:39   I haven't been willing to go over the hurdle

00:44:41   to say I'm going to request accessibility access,

00:44:44   'cause it's like, you want to let this app

00:44:46   read all your keystrokes and record your screen,

00:44:48   and people flip out, and rightly so, right?

00:44:50   I don't want that access.

00:44:51   I just want to say one thing.

00:44:52   Hey, app, bring all your windows to the front.

00:44:55   And again, there are multiple APIs to do that,

00:44:58   and zero of them work reliably.

00:45:00   They work about 98, 99% of the time,

00:45:03   but then they just stop working,

00:45:04   and there's no error condition,

00:45:05   and there's no log messages,

00:45:07   and the only recourse is to quit the app

00:45:09   or sometimes restart your computer.

00:45:11   And what do my dinky little apps do?

00:45:13   One really important thing they do

00:45:15   is ask applications to bring all their windows to the front,

00:45:17   and when that stops working, it's sad.

00:45:20   I even hacked in a little thing

00:45:21   where you can switch which API my app is using to do that.

00:45:26   Like, you can, like, cycle through them,

00:45:28   say, "Did that API work? Try this one.

00:45:29   Try that one. Try that one." None of them work.

00:45:31   When it stops working, it stops working for good.

00:45:33   And I feel like, even though that's a bug

00:45:34   that no one cares about,

00:45:36   if you're going to have any APIs on the Mac that say,

00:45:39   "Hey, app, bring all your windows to the front,"

00:45:41   I don't understand how that can ever stop working

00:45:44   or be unreliable, because I feel like the Windows server

00:45:48   should own the window layering policy to some degree.

00:45:50   It should be able to say,

00:45:52   "Look, app, I don't care what you're doing.

00:45:54   I don't need any interaction with you whatsoever.

00:45:57   I, the Windows server, own your windows,

00:45:58   and I put them on the screen,

00:45:59   and I composite them and everything,

00:46:01   so I'm simply going to bring, as the Windows server,

00:46:03   all your windows to the front.

00:46:05   You don't even need to be running.

00:46:06   You could be hung in an infinite loop,

00:46:08   'cause this is Mac OS X and not classic Mac OS.

00:46:11   I don't care if you're hung, app.

00:46:12   I'm bringing all your windows to the front."

00:46:14   But no, no API does that reliably, and it makes me very sad.

00:46:17   - We are sponsored this week by HelloFresh

00:46:21   to give you fresh, pre-measured ingredients

00:46:23   and mouthwatering seasonal recipes

00:46:25   delivered right to your door.

00:46:27   Skip trips to the grocery store this spring.

00:46:29   Go to HelloFresh to make home cooking easy,

00:46:32   fun, and affordable.

00:46:33   That's why it's America's number one meal kit.

00:46:37   HelloFresh cuts out stressful meal planning.

00:46:39   You can enjoy cooking and get dinner on the table

00:46:42   in 30 minutes or less.

00:46:44   They also, if that's not fast enough for you,

00:46:46   they offer lots of different options,

00:46:47   including meals ready in 20 minutes or less,

00:46:49   lightning prep recipes, quick breakfasts and lunches,

00:46:52   perfect for your busy schedule.

00:46:54   They have a huge selection for you to choose from,

00:46:56   over 25 recipes each week, from vegetarian meals

00:46:59   to craft burgers and extra special gourmet options.

00:47:02   They're something for everyone with HelloFresh,

00:47:05   and all of their recipes are designed and tested

00:47:07   by professional chefs and nutritional experts

00:47:09   to ensure deliciousness and simplicity for you.

00:47:12   Their fresh ingredients are sourced directly from growers

00:47:15   and delivered from the farm to your front door

00:47:18   in under a week, all contact-free, of course.

00:47:22   Over four in five customers say HelloFresh

00:47:24   helps them lead a healthier lifestyle

00:47:26   with delicious, low-calorie, carb-smart

00:47:28   and vegetarian options also available each week.

00:47:32   And HelloFresh is 28% cheaper than shopping

00:47:35   at your local grocery store and 72% cheaper

00:47:38   than a restaurant meal without sacrificing the quality,

00:47:41   according to the Zagat Dining Survey.

00:47:43   So go to HelloFresh.com/ATP12 and use code ATP12

00:47:49   for 12 free meals, including free shipping.

00:47:52   That's HelloFresh.com/ATP12 with special code ATP12

00:47:57   for 12 free meals with free shipping.

00:48:00   HelloFresh, America's number one meal kit.

00:48:02   So we heard some breaking news earlier today, I believe,

00:48:10   that Apple has added two brand new Siri voices

00:48:13   that will no longer default to a female voice

00:48:15   in the latest version of iOS, which is now in beta.

00:48:19   This is, I think, from TechCrunch.

00:48:20   I'm not really sure what the source is here,

00:48:22   but Apple is adding two new voices

00:48:23   to Siri's English offerings and eliminating

00:48:25   the default "female voice" selection

00:48:27   in the latest beta version of iOS.

00:48:29   This means that every person setting up Siri

00:48:30   will choose a voice for themselves

00:48:31   and it will no longer default

00:48:32   to the voice assistant being female.

00:48:35   Seems good.

00:48:36   I haven't heard it yet.

00:48:37   I think there's a sample out there,

00:48:38   but I just haven't had a chance to hear it.

00:48:40   But sounds good to me.

00:48:42   - Yeah, what's nice about this is,

00:48:45   throughout our history as a society

00:48:49   of trying to give people more rights, equal treatment,

00:48:52   trying to clamp down on stereotypes

00:48:56   and misogyny and stuff like that,

00:48:59   the more weird old assumptions that we can break,

00:49:04   generally the better things are.

00:49:06   Culturally in America, most robot voice assistant things,

00:49:11   whether you're hearing it on a phone menu

00:49:13   or something like that, have been female.

00:49:15   And that assumption isn't true everywhere.

00:49:16   Like in the UK, they're usually male.

00:49:19   Like it's just different in different places.

00:49:21   But it's this assumption that we've had

00:49:24   for forever in our society.

00:49:26   Like oh, the assistant voice should be female.

00:49:30   And that's based on some pretty terrible assumptions

00:49:32   of general reversals and everything over time.

00:49:35   And so what Apple's doing here is

00:49:37   effectively breaking that assumption

00:49:38   and making you choose which style of voice

00:49:41   you want to hear as your Siri assistant,

00:49:44   not just assuming and making a default

00:49:46   to saying okay, in America it's always gonna be

00:49:48   a female voice, in the UK it's always gonna be a male voice.

00:49:50   Like breaking that assumption now.

00:49:52   And that's generally a good thing, I think.

00:49:54   - Yeah, and there's a, I don't know if this was Siri related

00:49:56   but there was a couple of links going around

00:49:58   a few weeks ago about like why do computer voice assistants

00:50:01   have to be gendered at all?

00:50:03   Or binary gendered at all?

00:50:05   Like a computer doesn't have,

00:50:06   like all this is just to make people feel more comfortable.

00:50:08   Oh, it's a little person, it's not a computer.

00:50:10   Well of course we know it's not actually a person

00:50:11   but it makes us feel comfortable and interact

00:50:13   with something that sounds like a person.

00:50:16   But there's no reason that you need to just pick

00:50:18   oh it's male-ish sounding, meaning a deeper voice

00:50:20   or a female-ish sounding.

00:50:21   And so there was a bunch of voice assistant's demos,

00:50:24   maybe it was from Microsoft, I don't know,

00:50:25   someone will probably find the link.

00:50:27   If not this week then by next week.

00:50:29   Showing essentially non-binary gendered voices.

00:50:33   And I thought they were pretty amazing.

00:50:35   Like why shouldn't your computer sound like that?

00:50:38   And the idea of giving you a choice

00:50:42   and making you select now,

00:50:44   people may just end up selecting according to the stew,

00:50:47   the cultural stew that they've brought up in.

00:50:49   And maybe most Americans will pick female

00:50:51   for exactly the same reason,

00:50:52   the default was unthinkingly female.

00:50:54   Or you know what I mean?

00:50:55   It's just like again, the culture of traditional gender roles

00:50:58   in your particular country.

00:50:59   And what Apple's trying to do is not perpetuate that

00:51:02   by just saying oh yeah, no, we're just gonna,

00:51:04   we're gonna pick the thing

00:51:05   that we think you're comfortable with already, right?

00:51:07   They're not stopping you

00:51:08   from picking whatever you're comfortable with.

00:51:09   And maybe the ratio of people picking

00:51:11   one or the other will be exactly the same.

00:51:13   And you could even get down to the point of like okay,

00:51:15   well what order are the options going to be in?

00:51:17   Because the sort of cultural hegemony

00:51:21   of the assistant is female

00:51:23   and the assistant is subservient to,

00:51:26   is the service worker or whatever,

00:51:28   is so big in this country and probably in the world

00:51:32   that if they put the female option first,

00:51:35   that will cause it to be selected even more

00:51:37   because that's what people expect.

00:51:38   So it seems to me that they should actually

00:51:40   have to randomize the options

00:51:42   to give all of us a fighting chance

00:51:44   to not succumb to our default programming.

00:51:47   This is like the version of the tyranny

00:51:48   of the defaults we talk about,

00:51:50   where like in your application,

00:51:51   whatever you set as the default for some preference,

00:51:54   almost everyone's going to go with that

00:51:56   because most people don't care enough about that option

00:51:58   or aren't even aware that it could be in an option

00:52:01   to dig into your preferences and find the setting for it.

00:52:04   In fact, they might complain

00:52:05   that your program doesn't do this thing that it does.

00:52:07   That's the tyranny of the defaults.

00:52:08   And tyranny of the defaults has an analog in real life,

00:52:11   which is just like society and culture.

00:52:13   And when you grow up in it,

00:52:15   you don't think that there,

00:52:15   you might not even think that there is a child.

00:52:17   Well, that's just the way things are.

00:52:18   Secretaries are women.

00:52:20   How do I know that?

00:52:20   Everybody knows that.

00:52:21   Haven't you seen TV and movies and the entire culture

00:52:24   of the entire world that I've spent my entire life in?

00:52:26   Of course secretaries are women and nurses are women

00:52:29   and doctors are men and like,

00:52:30   unthinkingly adhering to these stereotypes.

00:52:34   And so when some people see this,

00:52:36   changing the voice on Siri, congratulations,

00:52:39   I'm sure that will help women everywhere.

00:52:41   Every little bit, every little one of these things

00:52:43   is one tiny, you know, one tiny pebble taken off a pile.

00:52:48   It doesn't fix the world, but if you don't do this,

00:52:51   then everyone will just continue to assume,

00:52:53   oh, well, my assistant has to be female

00:52:55   because assistants are females

00:52:56   just like secretaries and nurses, right?

00:52:58   So I applaud this move.

00:53:00   I don't quite know why it took so long.

00:53:02   I also don't understand why the default was male

00:53:06   in the UK and female in the US for so long,

00:53:07   'cause it seems like there was some understanding

00:53:10   within Apple that these cultural differences mean things,

00:53:14   but like why not take the next step and say,

00:53:16   but yeah, should it be our position at Apple

00:53:19   to unthinkingly perpetuate them or to serve them

00:53:22   or should we instead do what we can

00:53:25   to try to make things again more equitable

00:53:28   by just letting the user pick

00:53:31   from a randomly ordered selection of choices.

00:53:34   And I'll be excited if they throw in a few non-binary choices

00:53:37   there too, because I think they sound cool.

00:53:39   - Yep, agreed.

00:53:39   And I found a couple of examples,

00:53:41   mostly thanks to the chat room,

00:53:42   of recordings of these that you can listen to

00:53:46   after the fact.

00:53:47   All right, last week we had an Ask ATP

00:53:49   with regard to how we would set up networking

00:53:52   in a fantasy, you know, new house or something like that.

00:53:55   And Marco, as you want to do,

00:53:58   recommended something that you really like.

00:54:00   And you had some caveats and some gotchas about it,

00:54:02   but you had said in the past, up until about a year ago,

00:54:06   Ubiquiti, which is a manufacturer of UniFi stuff,

00:54:10   you have had really good experiences with them

00:54:13   up until semi-recently.

00:54:15   And then you had kind of self-backpedaled, if you will,

00:54:19   a little bit last week to say,

00:54:20   well, it used to be much better than it is now,

00:54:22   I'm not so sure.

00:54:23   Is that fair so far?

00:54:24   - Yeah, basically.

00:54:25   You know, I've been using Ubiquiti stuff

00:54:27   for many, many years for my home networking

00:54:30   and it's been rock solid for the most part for,

00:54:33   I mean, geez, maybe six, seven years.

00:54:35   I've been using it for a long time.

00:54:37   But the latest hardware from them,

00:54:41   the Ubiquiti Dream Machine Router series,

00:54:45   it seems like the Wi-Fi access points are all still fine,

00:54:48   but the Dream Machine Router and the software

00:54:50   that goes with it, it seems unreliable

00:54:52   and they keep moving the software forward

00:54:54   in very aggressive ways in ways that they seem

00:54:58   to have adopted a move fast and break things attitude,

00:55:02   which is not generally what you want from your router.

00:55:04   (laughs)

00:55:05   You kind of want your router to be old and boring

00:55:07   and just work well and not break anything for reasons.

00:55:12   So that culture might have come back to bite them slightly.

00:55:16   - Yeah, so there was a breach that happened,

00:55:20   I guess, late last year.

00:55:21   And Ubiquiti seems to have admitted to it to a degree.

00:55:26   I think they said some third party cloud provider

00:55:29   had had a breach that's associated with them.

00:55:31   And I believe that's pretty much all they said.

00:55:33   Well, there was an article that we'll put in the show notes

00:55:36   from Krebs on Security, wherein a whistleblower

00:55:38   reached out to them and they called the whistleblower Adam.

00:55:42   And the whistleblower said it was considerably bigger

00:55:45   than Ubiquiti's leading on.

00:55:46   So I'm gonna try to grab just a few quotes from here.

00:55:49   In reality, this is from the article.

00:55:51   In reality, Adam said the attackers had gained

00:55:52   administrative access to Ubiquiti servers

00:55:54   at Amazon's cloud service,

00:55:56   which secures the underlying server hardware and software

00:55:58   that requires the cloud tenant or client

00:56:00   to secure access to any data stored there.

00:56:02   Adam says that the attackers had gained access

00:56:04   to privileged credentials that were previously stored

00:56:06   in the LastPass account of a Ubiquiti IT employee

00:56:09   and gained root administrator access

00:56:11   to all Ubiquiti AWS accounts,

00:56:13   including all S3 data buckets, all application logs,

00:56:15   all databases, all user database credentials

00:56:18   and secrets required to forge single sign-on cookies.

00:56:21   I could go on and on actually about this.

00:56:24   Supposedly they were threatened.

00:56:26   The attackers wanted $2.8 million in order to keep quiet.

00:56:32   And so they actually wanted it, of course, in Bitcoin.

00:56:36   And I had assumed, oh, that must be like 1,000 Bitcoin.

00:56:38   Oh no, $2.8 million apparently at the time of writing

00:56:42   was 50 Bitcoin, which is just pretty fosters to me.

00:56:45   Oh, please don't email me, I don't care about Bitcoin.

00:56:47   But anyway, I just thought that was funny.

00:56:49   - Yeah, can we pause on that for one moment?

00:56:51   - Yeah. - People occasionally request

00:56:53   that we talk about the world of cryptocurrency.

00:56:55   I could not possibly care less

00:56:58   about the world of cryptocurrency.

00:56:59   I have very little knowledge of it,

00:57:01   but it's mainly I just have no interest.

00:57:03   And there seems to be, like there's a lot of people

00:57:05   out there who absolutely are super into it,

00:57:08   super involved, super interested.

00:57:11   I almost feel like it's a different world of tech

00:57:14   than the world that we live in.

00:57:15   And while there might be a very small amount of overlap,

00:57:19   I don't think it's much more than that.

00:57:21   And it's like people who are super into stock trading

00:57:25   and stuff, it's a different form of financial gambling

00:57:28   and instruments and everything.

00:57:29   And I just couldn't care less about that stuff.

00:57:32   I have no interest in it.

00:57:35   And it seems like there's so much there to know

00:57:39   that if you're gonna be into it,

00:57:40   you gotta be really into it.

00:57:41   Or you have to not be into all the stuff I'm into

00:57:44   in order to even have time to keep up with it

00:57:47   and to do it correctly and well and everything.

00:57:50   And so all of you out there,

00:57:51   if whatever portion of our audience is interested in that,

00:57:55   I'm sorry, I'm really not.

00:57:57   And so I'm never gonna wanna talk about it.

00:57:59   (laughs)

00:58:00   And that's just, there's a lot that we don't cover

00:58:02   on the show because tech is a very big world.

00:58:05   And for me, it's gotta be,

00:58:07   the whole world of cryptocurrency is part of that.

00:58:09   I just have no knowledge and no interest about it.

00:58:13   - Well, kind of like the financial instruments

00:58:15   that you mentioned before,

00:58:17   despite the fact that you have no interest in it,

00:58:19   unfortunately, like the stock market

00:58:21   and various financial instruments,

00:58:22   it does potentially have effect on your life,

00:58:25   if you remember 2008, for example.

00:58:27   So lots of times, things that we don't have any interest in

00:58:29   that just seem like there are a bunch of people

00:58:31   playing in a world that doesn't affect us,

00:58:33   when it starts to get into the financial system,

00:58:36   when they mess up real bad, it can affect us.

00:58:39   So it's one of those things where even if you don't

00:58:42   actually know anything about it,

00:58:43   it would behoove you to know enough about it

00:58:46   to know what side you're on and what you wanna lobby for

00:58:49   and who you might want to vote for in elections

00:58:51   and so on and so forth, respect to cryptocurrency,

00:58:54   just like the financial system,

00:58:55   which I have no interest in whatsoever,

00:58:57   but has in my very short lifetime

00:58:59   affected me in very profound ways already

00:59:01   and all of us, right?

00:59:02   So we can't just let the people over there

00:59:04   play with their stocks and collateralize debt obligations

00:59:08   and everything like, the whole reason I even know

00:59:10   what a collateralized debt obligation is

00:59:12   is because of the 2008 financial crash, right?

00:59:15   I didn't know about what any of those things are,

00:59:16   but boy, eventually we all had to know,

00:59:18   kind of like we all had to know about like viruses and stuff

00:59:21   and with the COVID thing.

00:59:23   So yeah, I mean, not that having some foundational

00:59:27   baseline knowledge of cryptocurrency

00:59:28   is probably going to save us,

00:59:29   but it's probably better to know something a little sooner

00:59:32   rather than to just read about it after the world

00:59:36   is totally destroyed by people mining for Bitcoin

00:59:40   or whatever.

00:59:41   - Well, and like the small amount of opinion I do have

00:59:44   about it is not positive because I am familiar

00:59:49   with the general idea of how it works.

00:59:51   I am also familiar with the immense amount of energy

00:59:54   consumption it's causing around the world.

00:59:56   - That's all free energy that no one was using, Marco.

00:59:59   - Yeah, so there's--

01:00:00   - It was going to waste.

01:00:01   If it wasn't for Bitcoin, that energy would just be

01:00:03   falling on the floor and rotting.

01:00:04   Do you not want people to use that energy?

01:00:06   - Mm-hmm, oh God.

01:00:08   Anyway, before we get, I mean, believe me,

01:00:10   you think Tesla people are bad with the email?

01:00:13   - No, Cryptocurrency people don't listen to the show.

01:00:14   (laughing)

01:00:16   - Anyway, no, it's--

01:00:16   - I'm not so sure.

01:00:17   - So yeah, so to me, that whole world,

01:00:20   it's like, I love computers for what we used to use

01:00:25   computers for, what used to be the only thing

01:00:27   we used computers for is messing around,

01:00:29   making documents and images and audio and video

01:00:32   and sending things back and forth,

01:00:34   communicating back and forth with each other.

01:00:36   And this seems like, hey, what if we used computers

01:00:39   to generate this entire financial world

01:00:41   of complex financial instruments?

01:00:42   And I was like, okay, you've lost me.

01:00:44   Now, what you're really talking about is finance.

01:00:48   And it doesn't have that much to do

01:00:50   with the computers anymore.

01:00:52   And that goes well beyond my interest or knowledge.

01:00:56   And again, the little bit I do know about it

01:01:00   really rubs me the wrong way, for lots of reasons.

01:01:03   From the attitude of a lot of the people in that world,

01:01:06   which it does seem like a lot of them

01:01:07   come from the world of finance and stuff like that,

01:01:10   which is not my scene at all,

01:01:12   as well as the environmental issues it causes.

01:01:17   And it seems, and just the attitude of the presumption

01:01:22   that this is going to take over everything

01:01:24   and that all of us simpletons using fiat currency

01:01:28   are somehow wrong or old dinosaurs.

01:01:30   - You know enough of the vocabulary to know the terms

01:01:35   that you wouldn't otherwise have any reason to know,

01:01:36   so it's getting to you.

01:01:37   - Yeah, I mean literally everything about it

01:01:39   that I know rubs me the wrong way,

01:01:40   with the sole exception that I think

01:01:43   the technological concept of how it works

01:01:46   is interesting technologically,

01:01:48   but that's where the positive feelings I have about it end.

01:01:53   - I predict we will talk about it, yes,

01:01:56   even more than we are now, in a future episode

01:01:59   at some point related to the NFT stuff, but not this week.

01:02:03   - Are we still talking about those?

01:02:04   - And I wish, not this week, and I wish I could find,

01:02:07   we should end by saying, me trying to find the originator

01:02:11   of this amazing tweet that I still,

01:02:13   that's the problem with the internet,

01:02:14   I can't tell who originated this tweet

01:02:16   'cause people could just be copying and pasting it

01:02:17   or whatever, but anyway, it was the explanation of Bitcoin

01:02:20   from 2018, potentially by the person who we'll link

01:02:23   in the show as it says.

01:02:24   You all know what Bitcoin is?

01:02:26   Imagine if keeping your car idling 24/7 produced

01:02:28   solved Sudokus you could trade for heroin.

01:02:31   (laughing)

01:02:31   I know, I've seen that before, it's pretty good.

01:02:33   - You have to know a lot of Bitcoin to understand

01:02:35   how every part of that sentence makes sense,

01:02:38   but it's also depressingly accurate.

01:02:42   - Yeah, and you know, so I haven't had a chance to weigh in,

01:02:44   I'll be very brief.

01:02:45   I agree with almost everything Marco said.

01:02:48   If it wasn't for the fact that this is accelerating

01:02:50   the heat death of the universe,

01:02:51   I would probably be far more interested in it.

01:02:54   Just a month or so ago, I went, I didn't do a deep dive,

01:02:58   but I started looking into, 'cause I did not understand

01:03:01   how it worked at all, and there was a really good video

01:03:03   on YouTube that's almost half an hour,

01:03:05   but it's excellent, and it's by 3blue1brown,

01:03:08   and I'd never heard of this channel before.

01:03:11   But link it in the show notes.

01:03:12   If you wanna know from a nerd's perspective,

01:03:14   but yet approachable from a non-nerd's perspective,

01:03:17   how does this actually work, I really, really recommend it,

01:03:19   'cause it helped me understand,

01:03:21   even after having read many, many things about it,

01:03:23   it wasn't until I watched this video that I was like,

01:03:24   oh, okay, I got it.

01:03:26   And yeah, I agree with you, Marco.

01:03:27   Like, not only is the scene not for me,

01:03:29   and not only does everyone seem to think,

01:03:32   much in the same way of Tesla people,

01:03:34   that they are the one true people that really understand,

01:03:38   and all you sheeple just don't get it, blah, blah, blah.

01:03:41   - Exactly.

01:03:42   - It's just like Tesla people.

01:03:44   Oh, you idiots with your internal combustion engines

01:03:47   blowing up dinosaurs.

01:03:49   - Let's say, more charitably,

01:03:51   when people are tech enthusiasts, as we are,

01:03:53   it's easy to get excited about a new technology.

01:03:56   We are often excited about new technologies.

01:03:58   I certainly am, right?

01:03:59   It just so happens that sometimes

01:04:01   some of those new technologies that people get excited about

01:04:03   and form communities around have, let's say,

01:04:05   externalities that turn other people off.

01:04:09   Even Tesla, which is doing a good thing.

01:04:10   Electric cars, yay, right?

01:04:12   That's good, right?

01:04:13   And yeah, it is.

01:04:14   But maybe when the fans get a little bit too enthusiastic

01:04:17   and too excited about defending their,

01:04:20   the thing that they are a fan of,

01:04:21   that gets a little bit toxic.

01:04:23   But in the case of things like Bitcoin or other,

01:04:25   you know, where there's,

01:04:27   anything where there is exciting technology,

01:04:30   and like you said, Casey,

01:04:31   some of the ideas behind Bitcoin are very clever

01:04:33   and interesting and worth pursuing,

01:04:34   kind of get overshadowed by the reality of,

01:04:39   okay, but then what changes is this actually causing

01:04:42   to happen in the world,

01:04:43   and how do I feel about those changes

01:04:45   as someone who isn't enthusiastic about this technology?

01:04:47   And that's where people end up getting conflict.

01:04:50   - Yeah, so anyway, it is worth checking out.

01:04:52   If you listen to the show, if you enjoy the show,

01:04:56   it is likely that you have enough of a nerd's brain,

01:04:59   and I mean that in a complimentary way,

01:05:00   that you would enjoy reading up on this

01:05:02   and learning about it.

01:05:03   And like I said, this 26 minute and 20 second video

01:05:05   really helped me anyway understand how it works.

01:05:08   All right, leaving all that behind us, at least for now.

01:05:10   So yeah, apparently Ubiquiti really kind of screwed up.

01:05:13   - Back to Ubiquiti.

01:05:15   - Yeah, back to Ubiquiti.

01:05:16   Speaking of screw ups, hey-o.

01:05:17   - Are they using all of our routers to mine for Bitcoin?

01:05:20   What's going on?

01:05:20   - Maybe that's it.

01:05:21   It all comes full circle, guys.

01:05:23   It all comes full circle.

01:05:24   - You don't need to start that rumor on the show.

01:05:26   That is not true.

01:05:27   - God, please no.

01:05:28   But no, all kidding and snark aside, this is some stuff.

01:05:32   Like this seems to me, and gosh, it's been a long time

01:05:36   since I've really run anything server side.

01:05:38   So Marco, jump in on,

01:05:40   or actually both of you jump in and correct me,

01:05:41   but it seems to me like a lot of this stuff

01:05:43   was kind of amateur hour

01:05:45   and that they really should have known better

01:05:47   than to make a lot of these mistakes.

01:05:49   And golly, if you're already in a position

01:05:52   where some of your most diehard supporters like Marco,

01:05:55   and again, and I mean that in a complimentary way,

01:05:58   you had said for years Marco, oh, this stuff is the best.

01:06:00   Yeah, it's expensive, but it's the best.

01:06:01   It's so good, blah, blah, blah.

01:06:03   And you had already been backpedaling some

01:06:05   as of literally a week ago.

01:06:06   And now, oh, yikes,

01:06:09   I don't know if I wanna go anywhere near this.

01:06:10   - I mean, here's the thing.

01:06:11   Like, I mean, we don't know that much about this yet.

01:06:14   And honestly, I don't follow this world

01:06:16   very closely normally.

01:06:18   So it's hard to expect any company

01:06:22   to be perfect all the time.

01:06:23   - Sure.

01:06:24   - Something like, you know, Ubiquiti,

01:06:25   they mostly sell like networking gear to companies.

01:06:30   So they have to be expected to have pretty good security

01:06:33   because their devices are kind of assumed

01:06:37   to have good security themselves

01:06:38   'cause they're being brought into serious businesses

01:06:40   and places where there's high stakes

01:06:42   if their devices are compromised.

01:06:44   So it is important, you know, it's like a server vendor.

01:06:47   It is important that they are trustworthy

01:06:50   and that they are viewed as following

01:06:52   pretty good security practices.

01:06:54   It is also important that they communicate clearly

01:06:58   when there is a problem or when there is a breach.

01:07:01   And in this case, you know,

01:07:03   you can argue whether they should've had this breach at all.

01:07:07   And I don't know enough about it to know

01:07:08   like what was involved, how,

01:07:11   if they were practicing reasonably secure

01:07:14   and responsible practices beforehand, I don't know.

01:07:16   What I do know is that if this accusation is true,

01:07:22   again, that's a big if

01:07:24   because there's, you know, you have to wonder like

01:07:28   could this be some kind of stock manipulation scheme?

01:07:30   They're a public company, I think, right?

01:07:31   Oh yeah, they are, right?

01:07:32   Yeah, so like it could be some kind of weird thing like that.

01:07:34   We don't actually know if this accusation is true or not.

01:07:38   But if it is true, what it points to is

01:07:42   I don't think anything like super damning

01:07:44   about their security practices,

01:07:46   but it does point to a pretty big problem

01:07:48   that they might've like underrepresented

01:07:51   or lied about a pretty substantial breach.

01:07:53   That is worrisome if that is true.

01:07:56   But that being said, what this means for me

01:08:00   and for people out there who have Ubiquiti gear,

01:08:03   it's one of those moments that gives you pause

01:08:05   about some of the features that we have enabled

01:08:08   on these routers and stuff

01:08:08   and some of the abilities they have

01:08:11   and whether we should enable them or not.

01:08:12   So for instance, on my Ubiquiti stuff,

01:08:16   I have auto updates turned on.

01:08:17   I have it, whenever there's a software update,

01:08:19   I have it installed at a certain time

01:08:20   and automatically reboot if it has to

01:08:22   at a certain time that won't disrupt things.

01:08:24   When something like this happens,

01:08:25   you realize, oh, maybe I shouldn't have auto update on

01:08:28   because if somebody compromises their update channel

01:08:31   and has the ability to arbitrarily sign any updates

01:08:36   they want as valid and push them out to all customers,

01:08:39   well, that could be pretty bad for me.

01:08:42   On the other hand, maybe I do want automatic updates

01:08:45   because that lets them patch security holes faster

01:08:47   as they're found, right?

01:08:48   So there's stuff to consider there.

01:08:50   There's also the entire model of Ubiquiti's routers

01:08:54   and stuff, I don't know if people who don't have them,

01:08:57   they probably don't know about this kind of stuff,

01:08:58   there's a whole bunch of remote management

01:09:02   and cloud-based features of Ubiquiti stuff.

01:09:04   So you don't just have a router running in your house

01:09:08   that you log into at like anymore.

01:09:12   That is there still, but you can sign into it from anywhere

01:09:16   if you have that enabled and you can manage things centrally

01:09:19   with your central Ubiquiti account where you're actually

01:09:22   not just signing into your router, you're signing into

01:09:23   Ubiquiti as their single sign-on thing for their service

01:09:27   and then you can access your stuff through their service

01:09:29   from anywhere, you can have all this cloud-based everything

01:09:31   about your local network and its management.

01:09:33   So maybe we don't need to enable those features

01:09:36   as home users.

01:09:36   I've been using that because it's convenient sometimes,

01:09:41   but something like this makes me question,

01:09:43   do I really need that?

01:09:44   Maybe I should be just setting it up once

01:09:47   and then just turning off auto updates

01:09:49   and turning off remote stuff and only updating it manually

01:09:52   like once a year when I think about it

01:09:54   and when I feel like it and then going to check.

01:09:56   Maybe I should go back to a system like that,

01:09:58   which used to be the way I would always do things on routers

01:10:00   because it didn't really matter most of the time.

01:10:03   I don't usually enable remote management of anything

01:10:05   on my home network because I don't usually need it.

01:10:08   So maybe I should go back to something like that

01:10:09   and I think this kind of breach should make

01:10:11   all Ubiquiti customers ask these questions to themselves.

01:10:14   And then finally, if you're able to,

01:10:17   this probably also should remind you to maybe not assume

01:10:22   that your internal network is secure by default.

01:10:26   And that might change what kind of services you offer

01:10:29   locally inside your network, whether you have passwords

01:10:33   on things like file shares or not.

01:10:35   I've always just had passwords on stuff

01:10:37   because I've always kind of assumed,

01:10:39   well, if some kid comes over with their weird

01:10:43   switch or iPad or whatever and I give them our wifi password,

01:10:48   I don't have a VLAN setup or anything like that.

01:10:50   I don't get that complicated.

01:10:51   What if their device gets hacked or they share the password

01:10:54   and then other people can get on my wifi network?

01:10:57   I don't need to know that every single device on my network

01:11:00   is always gonna be trusted and secured

01:11:02   because all the things I run inside my network

01:11:05   I assume to be requiring some base level of security,

01:11:08   requiring passwords and user accounts and stuff like that.

01:11:11   So it would be a good idea to also revisit

01:11:14   those kind of assumptions for people who are looking

01:11:16   at this and getting worried.

01:11:18   If somebody has access to something running on your network,

01:11:21   what do they have access to?

01:11:23   And if you can minimize that, that's probably a good idea

01:11:26   because even if you run some other router

01:11:29   and this problem doesn't apply to you,

01:11:31   we live in a world full of internet of things,

01:11:34   crap devices and everything and it's only a matter of time

01:11:38   before something on your network gets hacked by somebody

01:11:42   and has some kind of vulnerability

01:11:44   that doesn't get patched or whatever.

01:11:45   So something hostile will be on your wifi network eventually

01:11:49   so this is a good way to think about what the risks there

01:11:53   are and think about how you wanna manage those.

01:11:55   And then again going back to Ubiquiti,

01:11:57   thinking about with Ubiquiti stuff,

01:11:59   do you want to enable auto updating

01:12:01   and do you want remote access?

01:12:03   And I think the answer here is gonna,

01:12:05   for a lot of people it's now gonna be maybe not.

01:12:07   - Well I think this gets to the heart

01:12:08   of what you were saying before about communication

01:12:11   from the company because like I said,

01:12:13   people get hacked all the time, it's a thing that happens.

01:12:18   It's essentially unavoidable.

01:12:21   If someone wants to target you and wants to get in,

01:12:24   they probably will get in.

01:12:25   I think history has shown that there is no such thing

01:12:27   as an invulnerable, completely secure anything

01:12:30   that is on any kind of network,

01:12:33   which is why real security requests, as they say, air gap,

01:12:37   although there's all sorts of crazy academic papers

01:12:39   that will show you that even an air gap

01:12:41   isn't sufficient to protect you, but anyway.

01:12:43   The whole point is stuff happens, as they say.

01:12:47   But in that kind of environment,

01:12:50   of course you wanna have auto updates on

01:12:51   because that is your best defense against exploits

01:12:55   because exploits are discovered and then they are patched

01:12:57   and then new ones are discovered and then those are patched

01:12:58   and then other new ones are discovered and they're patched.

01:13:00   And if you opt out of that patching cycle

01:13:03   or do it at a much less frequent time interval,

01:13:06   like a month or a year instead of as soon as the patch

01:13:09   is available, you are vulnerable for longer.

01:13:12   But then we run into the ubiquity problem,

01:13:14   which is not so much that, oh,

01:13:15   maybe the signing certificates got stolen

01:13:18   and someone can put an update as them,

01:13:20   it's that we don't know because ubiquity,

01:13:22   according to the story, has not been upfront about it.

01:13:25   What you want is truthful communication

01:13:28   from the company to tell you,

01:13:30   if they had told you, hey, our stuff was stolen

01:13:33   and people can sign things as us,

01:13:35   everybody turn off your auto updates now

01:13:37   and then the company would later tell you,

01:13:39   okay, we've issued new certificates and redone everything,

01:13:42   now apply this patch manually and re-enable.

01:13:45   That's what you're looking for.

01:13:47   Like the trust in the company is the thing

01:13:50   that is damaged here.

01:13:51   Not so much, again, assuming it's true,

01:13:53   not so much the breach itself

01:13:55   because if you have trust in the company,

01:13:57   you would know which actions to take

01:13:58   because you would just ask the company,

01:13:59   hey, what should I do?

01:14:00   Should I have auto updates on or not?

01:14:02   But now Marco's in a situation of like,

01:14:03   well, I don't know whether I should have them on or not

01:14:06   because I don't even know if this is a thing

01:14:07   that happened or not because if the story is true,

01:14:10   then ubiquity is withholding information

01:14:11   that's making me not trust them,

01:14:13   but if I don't trust them, should I turn on auto updates

01:14:15   or should I not turn them on and I don't know what to do?

01:14:17   And that like, you know,

01:14:19   it's probably some business 101 lesson or whatever.

01:14:20   Like again, stuff is going to happen in your business

01:14:24   that's bad, it's how you handle it that, you know,

01:14:27   within reason, obviously if you're running a store

01:14:30   and it burns to the ground, you have no insurance,

01:14:31   how you handle it isn't that important.

01:14:33   But in situations like this,

01:14:35   how you handle it is a big factor

01:14:37   in how your company comes out of this.

01:14:39   So I really hope either parts of this story are true

01:14:43   or ubiquity at least comes clean at this point.

01:14:45   So its customers know what they should do going forward,

01:14:48   including knowing whether they should just

01:14:50   buy new networking equipment.

01:14:52   - Oh, and to answer everyone's questions about like,

01:14:54   what do I recommend now that ubiquity has a problem?

01:14:58   The answer is I don't know.

01:15:00   I haven't, you know, we have things like, you know,

01:15:03   the previous sponsor Eero, I've used those before,

01:15:05   like in vacation situations and stuff like that

01:15:07   and they've been fine.

01:15:09   But this kind of world, like,

01:15:11   almost everything has downsides somewhere in the chain

01:15:16   or like parties that you have to trust

01:15:19   if you're gonna use it.

01:15:20   You can go the kind of home brewed route

01:15:22   and set up like, you know, like one of those like,

01:15:25   like PF sense things, but those sometimes have problems too.

01:15:28   Like I think they just had a problem recently.

01:15:29   So like there's all sorts of gotchas

01:15:32   with a lot of this stuff.

01:15:33   And I think, again, like a reasonable way to approach it

01:15:38   is probably to keep things pretty simple.

01:15:41   And if you wanna be conservative about, you know,

01:15:45   the security and stuff on your network,

01:15:47   don't do things that have remote access, you know,

01:15:50   don't do things that are based on web services.

01:15:54   Have things that are more local and local only,

01:15:58   where like you are taking a more active role

01:16:00   in their management or there isn't much to manage

01:16:04   because they're so simple and local.

01:16:06   I think that's the general way to go.

01:16:07   And that's probably where I'm gonna be heading

01:16:08   with my stuff as well.

01:16:10   - So interestingly and totally unrelated

01:16:12   to this ubiquity thing,

01:16:13   I have been doing some thinking and purchasing

01:16:18   related to my home network because in this year,

01:16:22   I'm not gonna say this year of working from home

01:16:23   'cause honestly I was working from home a lot

01:16:25   even before the COVID stuff.

01:16:28   But in this last year, I've had much more occasion

01:16:31   to be on, you know, Teams, basically Microsoft Teams,

01:16:35   teleconference meetings all day long, right?

01:16:37   And every once in a while, it always seemed to be

01:16:43   during like an important Teams meeting, right,

01:16:45   with like where I'm either I'm giving

01:16:48   an important presentation or I'm talking with my bosses

01:16:50   or whatever, I would lose internet briefly

01:16:53   and then it would come back.

01:16:55   And it happened like, it happened one particularly

01:16:59   memorable time and I was like, if this happens again,

01:17:02   I'm fixing everything.

01:17:02   And then of course, it didn't happen again for months.

01:17:04   I'm like, oh, well, whatever that was,

01:17:06   you don't have to worry about it.

01:17:07   But then it happened again and I'm like, okay,

01:17:09   this might, maybe this happens all the time

01:17:11   and I just only notice when I'm in the middle

01:17:13   of an important meeting, like 'cause it, you know,

01:17:15   it just goes out briefly but then comes back, right?

01:17:18   And what it looks like from my networking perspective

01:17:21   is it looked the same as back in the bad old days

01:17:23   when my ISP would like, you know, go down for a second

01:17:26   or lose an IP address but it also might look similar

01:17:29   to a router rebooting itself because it crashed.

01:17:32   I have no way to tell because one of the routers I'm using,

01:17:34   I can't figure out how to get the logs from it

01:17:36   unless I do like SNMP or whatever

01:17:37   and I don't wanna deal with that.

01:17:38   But the whole point is, it's one of these problems

01:17:40   that's, it's like testing my resolve by saying,

01:17:44   I'm only gonna happen, I'm gonna happen in an infuriating

01:17:47   time but then it won't happen again for months.

01:17:48   But then it'll happen again but then it won't happen

01:17:50   again for months.

01:17:51   But now it happened again today and I'm like,

01:17:53   you know what, this is not just whatever it's called,

01:17:56   like a selection effect, not selection effect,

01:17:58   was it when someone mentioned something

01:18:00   and now you start seeing it everywhere?

01:18:01   - Oh yes, yes, yes, I can't think of it there.

01:18:03   - Merlin is yelling it right now.

01:18:05   - Yep, yep. - Yeah, exactly.

01:18:06   Whatever that phenomenon is, I'm like, it's not just that

01:18:08   'cause yes, there was a one particularly very--

01:18:09   - It's a Dunning-Fruchner. - Bader mine off.

01:18:12   - Oh, there it is, there it is, yep.

01:18:13   - Anyway, it was one particular really bad time it happened

01:18:16   but then like nothing for a while but now,

01:18:17   now like I didn't, normally what I should do

01:18:19   is like start logging it, like let me just write down

01:18:21   what it happens to prove to myself

01:18:22   that it's not just my, but I'm past that.

01:18:24   It happened today, I'm like all right,

01:18:25   you're over your limit for the year

01:18:26   which is like three or four, right?

01:18:29   And so I want to redo some things in particular,

01:18:32   I think I'm going to finally retire

01:18:33   the Apple Airport Express that Marco gave me

01:18:36   that I've been using for ages and just,

01:18:39   or start, basically what I'm gonna start doing

01:18:41   is eliminating components to narrow it down, right?

01:18:43   'Cause if it's that Apple thing

01:18:44   which is the oldest component in my thing

01:18:46   and honestly the thing I have the least faith in,

01:18:48   let me just remove that from the network

01:18:50   'cause I don't need it technically,

01:18:51   it's redundant with the rest of my network.

01:18:53   And then I'll just start going component by component

01:18:56   and taking things out of the loop and you know,

01:18:59   now the problem is I have to take one of these variables out

01:19:01   and I have to wait a few months.

01:19:03   And then you know, if it happens again,

01:19:05   they got to take another one out and wait a few months.

01:19:06   Like the iteration cycle is gonna be low

01:19:08   but anyway, all this to say is I'm taking that thing out

01:19:11   and when I take that out, it turns out

01:19:13   that I will actually need a few more ethernet ports

01:19:16   because the Apple Airport Express

01:19:17   doesn't just have like a WAN port and a LAN port,

01:19:20   it has like four ports on the back of it

01:19:23   and I'm using every single one of them

01:19:24   for a device that I care about.

01:19:26   So I can't just remove that from the network

01:19:28   'cause then I get a bunch of those.

01:19:29   - Oh, slow down, slow down.

01:19:29   Before we get a bunch of email,

01:19:30   you're talking about an airport extreme,

01:19:31   not an airport express, right?

01:19:33   - Yes, sorry, not an airport express.

01:19:35   I forgot the airport extreme, it's the one that's vertical

01:19:37   that some of them have a hard drive in

01:19:38   but this one doesn't, yes, airport extreme, sorry.

01:19:40   I forgot how extreme it was.

01:19:42   (laughing)

01:19:44   Yeah, airport express was the thing

01:19:46   that did like a AirPlay music transmission.

01:19:49   All right, if I take that out of the network,

01:19:51   I just have a bunch of loose ethernet cables

01:19:53   that have no place to plug.

01:19:55   So everyone knows what you need here.

01:19:57   You just need an unmanaged,

01:19:59   as in not exploitable through Ubiquiti X,

01:20:02   an unmanaged switch.

01:20:05   That's the simplest device you could possibly imagine.

01:20:07   There's nothing to configure, there's no software,

01:20:09   it is an unmanaged switch, ethernet switch,

01:20:12   a gigabit ethernet switch,

01:20:13   it has a bunch of ports in the back

01:20:14   and a place where you give it power

01:20:16   and you just plug in your ethernet cable

01:20:18   and it doesn't matter where you plug them in

01:20:19   for the most part

01:20:20   because they're all auto switching and auto magical

01:20:22   and it just essentially is like a USB hub

01:20:24   that used to be back in the day when we had those.

01:20:26   Where you have one ethernet port

01:20:29   and you need more than one ethernet port

01:20:31   and it is the simplest and most straightforward

01:20:36   and least complicated way you can get more ethernet ports

01:20:38   and yes, there are caveats compared to a managed port

01:20:40   and you can get fancier and fastener

01:20:42   but I literally just need one or two

01:20:43   or three extra new ports here, right?

01:20:45   So I simply needed to get an unmanaged gigabit ethernet switch

01:20:50   I've purchased many, many unmanaged gigabit ethernet switches

01:20:53   in my life, I've purchased many 10, 100

01:20:56   unmanaged ethernet switches in my life, right?

01:20:58   Hell, I've purchased ethernet hubs, I've done it all, right?

01:21:02   That seems like such an easy thing to buy

01:21:04   but kind of like toasters,

01:21:05   not that I wanna go on that rant again,

01:21:07   like toaster ovens, it's becoming re,

01:21:10   and I guess USB hubs for that matter,

01:21:11   it's becoming really, really hard to find

01:21:16   an unmanaged ethernet switch

01:21:19   that doesn't have thousands of angry people

01:21:22   on the internet telling you how it's a complete piece

01:21:24   of garbage and doesn't work.

01:21:25   - I'm looking at one right now and it's fine.

01:21:28   - Every, I know, I have a bunch of my house,

01:21:30   I have like, there's like four in my house, right?

01:21:32   They're all different, right?

01:21:33   What I wish is that I could take one of the four

01:21:35   that I have in my house and buy another one just like it

01:21:39   but of course all the ones in my house

01:21:40   were purchased years and years ago

01:21:41   'cause ethernet doesn't change that much

01:21:42   and they're all totally discontinued, right?

01:21:44   And so name the brand, D-Link, Linksys, TP-Link, Netgear,

01:21:49   like Cisco, like just whatever brand you think,

01:21:54   go find a consumer priced unmanaged ethernet switch

01:21:59   from them and then find how many hateful reviews

01:22:03   of people saying this doesn't work,

01:22:05   nothing worked on my network until I took it off,

01:22:07   it worked for six months and then died,

01:22:10   I hate company X, you should try company Y

01:22:12   and then you go to company Y and it's just a giant circle

01:22:15   and you just go around and around and around in circles

01:22:17   'cause and in the end, probably the actual contents

01:22:21   of all of these devices are made like by one or two companies

01:22:24   and they're all just packaging

01:22:25   in a different plastic container.

01:22:27   And then you say, okay, well,

01:22:28   why don't you just go for the business ones?

01:22:31   The problem with the business, you know,

01:22:33   unmanaged ethernet switches is they are made

01:22:36   for a business context and in one particular way

01:22:38   that's just gonna sound stupid but you know,

01:22:40   this is, I just want it the way I want it as they say.

01:22:44   The thing in a business context seemed to be

01:22:48   to have the power on the opposite side

01:22:50   of all the ethernet cables.

01:22:52   And the way I have everything arranged

01:22:54   in the way this thing is gonna be, that's no good for me.

01:22:57   I want all the ethernet ports and the power

01:23:00   all on the same side so all those cables can run off

01:23:03   the side or the back of my desk.

01:23:04   That used to be how almost every consumer ethernet switch

01:23:08   was made, somehow in the past 10 years someone decided,

01:23:12   you know what, I understand the business one.

01:23:14   The business one there in like a rack

01:23:15   and you can see the ports in the back as a power.

01:23:17   Like I understand that for the business ones

01:23:18   but that's not my context and honestly business ones

01:23:21   usually have more ports than eight or four

01:23:23   or whatever I need for my thing.

01:23:25   But then for the consumer ones, someone decided

01:23:27   that the power should come in the side for a lot of brands.

01:23:30   - The side?

01:23:31   - The side, I don't understand.

01:23:33   I mean, they're just cheap plastic consumer things

01:23:35   but someone decided and not only does it come in the side

01:23:38   but it doesn't come in with like a right angle,

01:23:40   you know, like a little DC right angle connector.

01:23:42   No, it comes straight out of the side.

01:23:44   You got your ethernet cables coming out one side.

01:23:47   I'm just surprised there aren't brands

01:23:48   that don't have ethernet ports in like a circle around them

01:23:50   like a big spider.

01:23:51   'Cause that's about how much--

01:23:55   - An ethernet squid.

01:23:56   - Exactly, that's like how much--

01:23:57   - No, a squid would be better.

01:23:58   - How much acknowledgement these companies have

01:24:00   of how people actually use it.

01:24:01   Like you're making a consumer thing,

01:24:03   you're making it pretty.

01:24:04   Don't you think people have desks?

01:24:05   Don't you think they want the cables running off their desk

01:24:07   and not like one cable running towards them

01:24:09   and the rest running away?

01:24:11   So, you know, of the ones that have all the ports

01:24:14   and the power in the back

01:24:15   and there are a bunch of models you can find,

01:24:16   every one of the reviews says they're all pieces of garbage.

01:24:19   Like every brand just, no, obviously, again,

01:24:22   reviews like 99.9% they're great, right?

01:24:26   But these things have like thousands of reviews

01:24:27   on many different sites.

01:24:28   And so there's hundreds of people saying,

01:24:30   you should never buy Netgear, you should only buy Linksys.

01:24:33   And then you go to Linksys and you should never buy Linksys.

01:24:36   You could always, you should always buy TP-Link.

01:24:37   Oh, don't buy TP-Link, they're the cheapest ones

01:24:39   and they're garbage, you should buy Netgear.

01:24:41   And oh my God, it goes around and around.

01:24:43   All I'm looking for is just a straightforward,

01:24:48   like I'm willing to pay more

01:24:50   because these things cost like 20 bucks, right?

01:24:52   I'll pay 40 bucks, I'll pay $50.

01:24:54   - Big spender, big spender.

01:24:55   - Find me the one that's like everyone agrees

01:24:58   is 100% reliable and has ethernet ports and the power.

01:25:01   And that just doesn't exist.

01:25:02   Even in the chat room, people are saying,

01:25:03   everyone knows TP-Link is good.

01:25:05   They're well regarded by almost everyone.

01:25:07   Almost, but not quite, not quite everybody.

01:25:10   In fact, they have the exact same number of people

01:25:12   telling you their pieces of garbage as every other brand.

01:25:14   So I made a random choice.

01:25:16   I picked one, I ordered it, it's on its way.

01:25:19   And then I went to Monoprice

01:25:21   and bought some ethernet cables for two bucks

01:25:22   and felt better about myself.

01:25:24   Using my new found knowledge of ethernet cables

01:25:26   from our vast research on this topic across the place.

01:25:29   Weeks and weeks of shows, learned more about,

01:25:31   I didn't have to say like,

01:25:32   what's the difference between Cat6 and Cat6a again?

01:25:35   I already knew that was nice and they were cheap.

01:25:37   So I'm going to excise the airport extreme for my network.

01:25:43   But the reason I put this in here,

01:25:45   I'm thinking about Marco with his setup was,

01:25:47   there's never a good time, especially in these COVID times

01:25:53   for me to knock everyone in the house off the internet.

01:25:57   Which is what I would have to do

01:25:58   to remove this essential component

01:26:00   because the Apple airport extreme is in fact,

01:26:02   the thing that pulls an IP address from my FiOS.

01:26:05   My FiOS thing has an ethernet cable coming out of it.

01:26:08   It goes into the Apple thing.

01:26:09   The Apple thing gets my like public IP address

01:26:11   that I get through FiOS

01:26:12   and distributes IP addresses to everything else.

01:26:14   Then I have a Euro for all my wifi, but that is the Lynchman.

01:26:17   So when I unplugged that,

01:26:18   everything in this house goes offline.

01:26:20   And I was thinking about telling my family,

01:26:22   hey, I need to do an upgrade or whatever, blah, blah, blah.

01:26:24   But you know how these things go.

01:26:25   Sometimes it doesn't go as quick as you want.

01:26:27   I can't do that in the middle of the day.

01:26:29   The kids have remote school

01:26:30   and people are watching streaming video at night.

01:26:33   So I feel like I'm back at work again.

01:26:35   I have to wait till like off hours,

01:26:37   like 2 a.m. when everyone's asleep,

01:26:38   I got to sneak down and redo the network in the house

01:26:40   so that when everyone wakes up,

01:26:41   allowing for the hour and a half

01:26:43   of when something's gonna be screwed up

01:26:44   or the FiOS thing is gonna refuse to give a new IP

01:26:47   to my router or whatever.

01:26:49   I have to allow for that and have it built in.

01:26:51   Plus the possibility that I'm gonna be up all night.

01:26:53   And by the time they wake up, I need to go to school.

01:26:55   I haven't fixed the network

01:26:56   and now it's just permanently broken.

01:26:57   So there's always that possibility.

01:26:58   So it's fairly more and more fraught

01:27:01   of how to essentially change or update your home network

01:27:06   in a way that doesn't cause the disruptions.

01:27:08   And I thought this would be a good opportunity to ask Marco

01:27:10   how he has handled this in his household,

01:27:12   which granted in pre-COVID times

01:27:14   when you did your various network redesigns

01:27:16   probably wasn't as fraught.

01:27:18   But what are your plans now?

01:27:19   Like say, oh, I'm gonna get rid of my ubiquity

01:27:21   and replace it with something else.

01:27:22   How do you plan to do that?

01:27:24   Or is it just like you just wait for Adam to go to school

01:27:27   and then just tell Tiff tough luck

01:27:29   and then take everything offline?

01:27:31   - Yeah, I basically wait until no one's using it.

01:27:33   And I actually do have a few chances a week

01:27:37   where that happens in the middle of the day.

01:27:39   And so I can do that.

01:27:40   But getting back a minute to your Switch issue.

01:27:43   (laughs)

01:27:44   I found it amusing.

01:27:46   I looked up the Switch that runs most of my house here

01:27:50   is, well, was until very recently

01:27:52   when I upgraded, quote, upgraded to ubiquity stuff,

01:27:56   an HP 18 or 24 port HP rack mount Switch.

01:28:01   And this is something I bought in 2012 for $274

01:28:06   and has been bulletproof.

01:28:08   Totally rock solid until I took it offline

01:28:12   and upgraded to the ubiquity stuff last year sometime.

01:28:16   So it worked for probably nine years or eight years at least

01:28:20   and was totally rock solid, never had a problem.

01:28:24   And at some point I needed an eight port Switch

01:28:27   in one of my TV stations.

01:28:30   And I just got the HP Pro Curve,

01:28:33   it's the HP Pro Curve 1810G line.

01:28:36   And I just got the eight port version of that,

01:28:38   which is smaller and got that.

01:28:40   And that was also totally reliable,

01:28:43   bulletproof the entire time.

01:28:45   So I can suggest if you're willing to go with things

01:28:48   that are a little bit larger and might have the power port

01:28:50   on the opposite side as the network ports.

01:28:52   - And a fan potentially?

01:28:53   - I don't think these have fans, I'll double check.

01:28:55   - Well, I can stop you.

01:28:56   Don't suggest any rack mounts.

01:28:58   Obviously I know if I wanted to just buy

01:29:00   like business equipment, yeah, it would be fine.

01:29:03   But these are for better or for worse,

01:29:05   this networking stuff is happening like on a desk

01:29:08   up where people are.

01:29:10   So rack mount stuff is--

01:29:11   - Well, the eight port version,

01:29:13   yeah, the eight port version is not a rack mount

01:29:14   or at least it's one of those like half wide things.

01:29:17   - Yeah, I mean, but that's why I start to get into fashion.

01:29:19   Like for example--

01:29:21   - The fashion of network Switches?

01:29:22   - Yeah, so the one I have on my Synology--

01:29:25   - John, you're gonna have like five network cables

01:29:28   coming out of it, where's the fashion?

01:29:29   There isn't like--

01:29:30   - I don't want an ugly box,

01:29:31   I don't want an ugly box sitting on my desk,

01:29:33   that's what it comes down to.

01:29:34   - It shouldn't be on your desk.

01:29:36   It's covered in wires.

01:29:38   If you're concerned about the appearance of something

01:29:39   that's inherently going to be covered in wires--

01:29:42   - You can't even see the wires,

01:29:43   they all disappear behind the desk.

01:29:45   - Oh my God.

01:29:46   - So anyway, the one I have attached to my Synology

01:29:48   is sort of the spiritual successor of the good one

01:29:52   that I like.

01:29:53   The good one that I like is the one

01:29:54   that my Mac Pro is connected to.

01:29:56   It's an eight port Switch, I think I bought it,

01:29:58   I think I bought it in like 2002 or something,

01:30:00   I don't even know how old it is, right?

01:30:02   But it looks nice, it looks like a rectangle, it's black.

01:30:05   It has lights on the front with colors

01:30:07   that mean something, right?

01:30:10   And it has power that comes out the back, right?

01:30:12   Can't buy that anymore, right?

01:30:14   The company that makes it makes a new model that's ugly.

01:30:17   I bought one of those ugly ones

01:30:18   and that's what my Synologies are on.

01:30:20   There's, I don't care, it's in the basement,

01:30:21   I don't see it, but I need something up here

01:30:23   that is tasteful and discreet and not ugly

01:30:27   and reasonable quality and has the ports on the back

01:30:31   and the plug on the back.

01:30:32   If you think about the AirPort Extreme, that qualifies.

01:30:36   It is tasteful, yes, it has cables all plugged

01:30:38   into the back of it, but they're all in the back,

01:30:40   you can't see them because you can't walk around

01:30:41   the back of his desk, it's against the wall.

01:30:43   It fulfills the goal.

01:30:45   It is a reasonable looking nice thing

01:30:48   that has been reliable as far as we know,

01:30:51   but that I'm deciding to take out of the networking equation

01:30:54   just because it's the oldest thing.

01:30:55   And again, I'm not necessarily blaming

01:30:58   this particular device, but it's the first variable

01:31:01   that I'm going to eliminate and I'm going to replace it

01:31:03   with something else.

01:31:04   So the one I got is a black rectangular box

01:31:06   with all the ports in the back of it.

01:31:07   It's from a brand I have not tried before,

01:31:10   so wish me luck, but it's a $20 purchase,

01:31:12   so if it's garbage, I'll just try another brand.

01:31:15   It's not the end of the world.

01:31:16   And in fact, I think I have a spare one

01:31:17   of the ugly ones up in the attic

01:31:19   'cause I got a lot of, I always have,

01:31:20   this is a good thing to go.

01:31:22   When you're buying something like this,

01:31:23   like networking switches or whatever,

01:31:25   especially if your house is set up like mine

01:31:28   where you essentially use all the ports,

01:31:30   like there's no networking switch in my house

01:31:32   that has an abundance of free ports.

01:31:34   I'm tempted to say that there are zero free ports,

01:31:37   but I think I have one in this room

01:31:39   as my sort of go-to spare port, right?

01:31:42   But anyway, if something goes wrong

01:31:44   and you're wired networking and you'd like a box dies

01:31:47   because you've been using it for 15 years

01:31:50   and you don't have a replacement,

01:31:51   it can be frustrating when things go offline

01:31:54   and kids can't get wifi anymore

01:31:55   because you had some, you know,

01:31:57   the wire that goes to the satellite thing doesn't work

01:31:59   and you're like, well, sorry, I'm all out of ports, right?

01:32:01   It's a good idea to have spares.

01:32:02   And so I do have a couple of spare switches,

01:32:04   but they're ugly, so I'm hoping the one I bought

01:32:07   that is less ugly works well, but if it doesn't

01:32:10   and it's an emergency, I can swap in one of the other boxes.

01:32:14   Do you wanna be really frustrated?

01:32:16   I actually have this problem very well solved in my house

01:32:19   because, you know, who makes a really nice little switch?

01:32:22   - Ubiquiti? - Ubiquiti!

01:32:24   - But they're managed! - Exactly.

01:32:26   And you need to be running their management software

01:32:30   to activate the switch.

01:32:32   But they make this one called the USW Flex Mini.

01:32:35   It's a managed five-port switch that's very, very small.

01:32:39   They sell it in, I think I bought a four-pack for 100 bucks.

01:32:42   - Yeah, they do sell them in multi-packs.

01:32:44   I noticed that too, I'm like, why is this so expensive?

01:32:46   It comes with four of them.

01:32:47   - Yeah, and it can be powered either via USB-C,

01:32:52   which is on the wrong side of it,

01:32:54   or it can be powered by a power over ethernet feed-in.

01:32:58   That's also the uplink.

01:33:00   And one of the coolest things I ever did for my network

01:33:03   was I upgraded my main switch to be a power

01:33:06   over ethernet switch on all of its ports.

01:33:08   And that way I can plug any PoE thing

01:33:10   into any ethernet port around my house, and it gets powered.

01:33:14   And what's great about this is that

01:33:16   if I need a switch somewhere,

01:33:18   I can plug this in to the wall jack, it gets powered,

01:33:22   and then I don't have to separately run a power cable to it,

01:33:25   and I can plug whatever I want into its other ports.

01:33:27   And so it is a very, very nice system.

01:33:30   Unfortunately, it requires you to have

01:33:32   a PoE infrastructure, or USB-C power, but on the wrong side.

01:33:35   Or either way, it still requires you

01:33:37   to have a Ubiquiti management system set up.

01:33:41   But it is a really nice looking, very small switch.

01:33:43   - No, it is.

01:33:44   I looked at it, in my tour of every networking vendor

01:33:47   on the planet, I looked at it.

01:33:48   Hell, I was looking at vendors that sell, essentially,

01:33:51   this product, an ethernet lowering switch,

01:33:53   for use in factories, like to build things.

01:33:56   - Oh my gosh. - Right?

01:33:58   'Cause there are vendors that specialize in,

01:34:00   so on the factory floor of your metal machining shop

01:34:04   or whatever, you might need ethernet

01:34:05   for your CNC machines or whatever.

01:34:07   And the things they sell, they're hilarious.

01:34:09   They have their own fashion.

01:34:10   They look like Milwaukee Power Tools or whatever.

01:34:13   They have that kind of macho, I belong in a factory vibe,

01:34:16   which is not the look I'm looking for.

01:34:18   And they're also seven times more expensive

01:34:20   than even this Ubiquiti thing.

01:34:21   So you want a four-port factory router?

01:34:23   That's $300, please.

01:34:25   I don't know what's factory about them,

01:34:26   other than the fact that they seem to have metal cases

01:34:28   and ridiculous flanges and stuff.

01:34:30   But yeah, no, I did look at Ubiquiti.

01:34:32   I looked at a lot of the other managed stuff.

01:34:34   I don't want and can't support any managed stuff.

01:34:36   Some of the more expensive consumer ones are all about like,

01:34:38   "Hey, this one has all power ethernet ports."

01:34:41   But that doesn't help me because I'm pretty sure,

01:34:44   I don't know if the CAT6 cable that's going

01:34:48   from my Fios thing supports power ethernet.

01:34:50   Do all cables support it?

01:34:52   This is another thing in my research.

01:34:53   Like I don't have any power ethernet infrastructure

01:34:55   as you were saying.

01:34:56   Like there's zero power ethernet things in my house

01:34:59   and applying it after the fact.

01:35:02   And this is what people are gonna tell me

01:35:03   and they're probably kind of right.

01:35:05   You should just get a server rack and put it in your basement

01:35:07   next to all your Synology stuff.

01:35:08   - Yes.

01:35:09   - That probably will happen someday eventually.

01:35:11   Unfortunately, the other part of my home networking,

01:35:14   as we talked about before,

01:35:15   like the part where you have to get wires

01:35:17   to go from point A to point B in your house,

01:35:20   that is the most sneaky, janky, ridiculous,

01:35:24   so you didn't really wanna do this

01:35:25   the right way situation, right?

01:35:27   I ran all these wires myself.

01:35:29   I am not an electrician and I did it

01:35:32   by essentially being sneaky.

01:35:33   Like I didn't do anything the right way.

01:35:36   Nothing hits, it's all about like,

01:35:38   where can I hide a wire where no one will notice it?

01:35:41   And I go from the far corner of my house

01:35:43   to the other far corner and it's just ridiculous.

01:35:46   If you saw the network topology, it's like,

01:35:48   oh God, I wish I could find this.

01:35:50   It's probably on YouTube somewhere.

01:35:51   You ever seen the thing explaining why a particular nerve

01:35:55   in the human body, like, I forget where it starts.

01:35:58   Like starts in one place then goes down half your body

01:36:01   then makes a U-turn and comes back up half your body

01:36:04   and connects to something that's like an inch

01:36:05   from where it started.

01:36:07   And it's like the most, it's like why would,

01:36:09   if you need, if this part of your, if this brain,

01:36:11   you know, you go from brain to this nerve to the thing,

01:36:14   it's like two inches away.

01:36:15   Why are you going down to my stomach and back up again?

01:36:17   And there's a really good explanation of like,

01:36:19   well, this is you with your stupid nerve, right?

01:36:23   Rewind evolutionarily speaking and look,

01:36:25   here is a fish and here's how the fish biology is set up

01:36:29   and here how the transitional, you know,

01:36:31   the various species that are between fish and us

01:36:34   and you watch as that nerve gets longer and longer

01:36:36   and slowly bends into a crazy U-shape

01:36:38   until we get to like primates and now you say,

01:36:40   oh, I see, it just kind of ended up that way.

01:36:43   That's my home network.

01:36:45   My home network has cable runs that go from the source,

01:36:48   they go all the other side of the house

01:36:50   then all the way back, then back again in this direction.

01:36:52   Like you would never make a network this way.

01:36:56   - But it's entirely designed,

01:36:57   like where and how I can hide the wires

01:37:01   without actually running them through any of my walls,

01:37:03   which are all made of like horsehair plaster

01:37:05   and lath and everything.

01:37:06   (laughing)

01:37:07   Right, so I'm slightly constrained on the networking.

01:37:11   In general though, I have everything that I need.

01:37:13   It's just that, you know,

01:37:15   if I want to replace a thing

01:37:17   that has four ethernet ports on it,

01:37:18   I need something else that has at least

01:37:19   four ethernet ports on it.

01:37:21   If I want to replace everything,

01:37:22   I have to rerun all new wires and sort of home run them down

01:37:25   to my big non-existent networking rack in the basement.

01:37:28   That maybe is a project for another decade,

01:37:31   but for now I just want to find the culprit.

01:37:33   Oh, and by the way,

01:37:34   I'm the culprit of what the networking thing is.

01:37:36   I really do think anecdotally speaking,

01:37:39   as far as my work can tell,

01:37:41   it mostly happens when I'm in meetings with the Teams app.

01:37:44   I'm like, how could that be?

01:37:46   What is it about using Teams?

01:37:47   It's not particularly network constrained.

01:37:50   It's not like we're sharing video.

01:37:52   Half the time everyone has their video turned off

01:37:53   and we're all staring at one document.

01:37:55   And I do huge downloads and uploads all the time,

01:37:58   putting gigs of photos and everything else,

01:38:01   all my back play stuff going up from multiple computers.

01:38:03   Like what is it about and being in the Teams meeting

01:38:06   that causes this problem to happen?

01:38:08   I don't have an answer.

01:38:10   I don't know why I'm blaming the Apple thing

01:38:11   just because it's old,

01:38:12   but it's the first thing I'm trying.

01:38:14   So we'll check back in in three months.

01:38:16   Or maybe I'll check back in the next episode

01:38:18   and I'll tell you how nice my black box looks on the desk.

01:38:21   And then after that three months,

01:38:22   I'll tell you if I've actually solved my problem.

01:38:25   - I just love that you've been stressing

01:38:27   about how many nines you've implicitly provided your family.

01:38:31   I don't think you knew it,

01:38:33   but you're apparently in four to five, nine territory.

01:38:36   - No, actually the thing is they're not around

01:38:39   or at least they don't,

01:38:40   no one has ever come to me and say,

01:38:42   hey, is the network out?

01:38:43   'Cause it goes down for a second.

01:38:44   But if you're in the middle of giving a presentation,

01:38:46   it's a problem, right?

01:38:48   So as far as they're concerned, it's 100% uptime.

01:38:51   And I figure I wanna maintain it,

01:38:53   mostly because if I was to just right now

01:38:55   kill the network connection,

01:38:56   every person in my house would come be knocking at this door

01:38:58   and saying what's going on.

01:38:59   'Cause I guarantee you they're all on the internet right now

01:39:02   in some form, right?

01:39:04   Oh, John, I'm sorry.

01:39:07   - We are brought to you this week by Squarespace.

01:39:11   Start building your website at squarespace.com.

01:39:13   Enter offer code ATP at checkout to get 10% off.

01:39:17   Make your next move with Squarespace.

01:39:20   These days, pretty much everything needs a website.

01:39:23   Pretty much every new business or hobby

01:39:26   or even you as an individual,

01:39:27   if you wanna show off your portfolio

01:39:29   or give people kind of a landing page

01:39:30   for all your stuff online, you need a website.

01:39:33   And Squarespace makes it incredibly easy to make websites.

01:39:36   From the simple, you know,

01:39:37   a few pages of information about yourself

01:39:40   to what is normally very complex to host elsewhere.

01:39:43   Things like storefronts or podcasts.

01:39:46   Squarespace makes all of these sites incredibly easy to make

01:39:50   and to keep up there online without any skill level

01:39:53   in web development or server administration

01:39:56   or HTML or anything like that.

01:39:58   Because all the tools are super simple.

01:40:00   They're all visual.

01:40:01   There's no coding anywhere required.

01:40:04   And then once you have your site configured and set up

01:40:07   and looking the way you want it,

01:40:08   Squarespace keeps it up for you.

01:40:10   You don't have to worry about software upgrades

01:40:13   and patches and server maintenance.

01:40:15   They do all of that for you.

01:40:17   And they have amazing support if you ever need it.

01:40:20   And it's just such an amazing place to build a website.

01:40:23   You can even get a free domain name

01:40:24   if you sign up for a year up front.

01:40:26   See for yourself with a free trial at squarespace.com/atp.

01:40:31   There's no credit card required for this trial.

01:40:34   And you can sign up.

01:40:35   You can build the entire site in trial mode

01:40:36   without giving them a dime.

01:40:37   You could see how the whole thing works

01:40:39   and see if it's right for you.

01:40:40   And honestly, I bet it will be.

01:40:42   When you decide to sign up,

01:40:43   make sure to head back there, squarespace.com/atp.

01:40:45   And use the offer code ATP to get 10% off

01:40:48   your first purchase.

01:40:49   That's squarespace.com/atp.

01:40:51   Code ATP for 10% off your first purchase.

01:40:54   Thank you so much to Squarespace for sponsoring our show.

01:40:57   Make your next move with Squarespace.

01:40:59   - All right, Michael writes,

01:41:04   "A long time ago I read that it was best

01:41:05   "to have an admin account and your user account.

01:41:07   "And your user account shouldn't be an admin

01:41:08   "for security purposes.

01:41:09   "Is that still best practice?

01:41:11   "Some commands/installs require sudo,

01:41:13   "which my user doesn't have.

01:41:15   "This is a great question.

01:41:16   "I think I might have done this once in the Windows era,

01:41:18   "like 49 years ago.

01:41:21   "I'd never have really done this regularly.

01:41:24   "So, John, what's the right practice here?"

01:41:26   - This is another question we get occasionally,

01:41:28   and I think we're up to like the two or three year rotation

01:41:31   where we need to answer it again.

01:41:33   It's, the trade-off is exactly how people think.

01:41:36   There is no secret thing

01:41:38   you're probably not thinking of, right?

01:41:40   It is safer not to have an admin account

01:41:42   because then you can't actually do something

01:41:44   to hose yourself, but it's also annoying

01:41:46   because sometimes you want to do something as admin,

01:41:48   and if your account doesn't have it,

01:41:49   then you have to switch one that does,

01:41:50   which you can do, but it's a hassle.

01:41:52   So it's that old security versus convenience trade-off.

01:41:55   What I would say is if you're listening to this podcast

01:41:58   and more or less trust yourself

01:42:00   to not do something phenomenally stupid with your computer,

01:42:03   having an admin account is so much more convenient

01:42:06   that I think it is worth the slightly higher chance

01:42:09   that you will hose yourself and/or be exploited

01:42:11   by some program that takes advantage of the fact

01:42:13   that you can elevate privileges.

01:42:15   That said, if you want to make the opposite choice,

01:42:17   that's fine too.

01:42:17   It's not that fraud.

01:42:18   Like just decide what your risk, you know,

01:42:21   your risk tolerance is.

01:42:22   I personally make my accounts admin accounts.

01:42:25   I made all my children's accounts non-admin accounts,

01:42:27   and I even went back on that

01:42:28   'cause it was too annoying when I was on their account

01:42:30   trying to fix something that I couldn't

01:42:32   essentially do admin stuff, right?

01:42:34   Sometimes when you're prompted for admin stuff,

01:42:35   you can enter an admin username and password.

01:42:38   So if I was on their account

01:42:39   and I needed to give some app access

01:42:41   to the microphone or whatever,

01:42:42   I could enter my username and password,

01:42:45   but then I couldn't use touch ID

01:42:46   because their thing, you know,

01:42:47   their laptops had touch ID with their finger in it.

01:42:49   Anyway, I have now gone to,

01:42:52   the entire family has admin accounts

01:42:53   just because I am annoyed by the hassle

01:42:56   of not being able to elevate to admin privileges

01:42:58   with the current user's password in every situation.

01:43:01   Your mileage may vary.

01:43:02   It is in fact safer not to do that,

01:43:04   but not to a degree that I would have a problem

01:43:07   with recommending that people just make admin accounts.

01:43:09   Just be careful out there.

01:43:11   - Yeah, I disagree a little bit.

01:43:13   I err on the side of just make everybody admin

01:43:15   because first of all, it depends on like

01:43:19   where the risk is coming from

01:43:20   as to whether this makes any difference at all.

01:43:22   Sandboxed apps, for instance, on the Mac,

01:43:25   you don't need to separate these privileges out

01:43:27   because they are already restricted

01:43:28   in what they can access and things like that.

01:43:30   And so sandbox apps are already kind of implicitly

01:43:33   locked down for the most part.

01:43:36   Un-sandboxed apps, if you're not an admin,

01:43:39   still have access to all of your files.

01:43:42   And that's pretty important.

01:43:44   They have so much access to things that matter to you

01:43:48   that whether or not they can modify like system files

01:43:51   or the files of other users on the system

01:43:53   might not matter if they still have access

01:43:56   to all of your documents, all of your files.

01:43:58   So from that point of view,

01:44:01   I think you're thinking there's more security

01:44:03   in making that a restricted account

01:44:05   than what there actually might be.

01:44:07   - I mean, the context of my household

01:44:09   is that every person has an account

01:44:10   on every single computer.

01:44:11   So even though it seems silly,

01:44:13   like well, it's got all access to your stuff,

01:44:14   well, it doesn't have access, for example,

01:44:16   to my wife's stuff if it's not an admin account, right?

01:44:18   So I can hose mine, like it's more relevant for kids.

01:44:21   If a kid didn't have an admin account,

01:44:23   they could erase all their crap,

01:44:25   but they couldn't erase my crap

01:44:26   or my wife's crap or whatever, right?

01:44:28   But in the end, you know, like it's,

01:44:31   like how much are you trusting your kids

01:44:35   to operate the computer in a safe way?

01:44:38   Like it's a trade-off.

01:44:39   - Yeah, but also, if you run non-admin accounts,

01:44:43   lots of weird stuff breaks.

01:44:45   That being said, I mean, I've had many problems

01:44:49   with multi-user support in Big Sur and recent releases.

01:44:54   Every time we have to log out of my user account

01:44:58   and like TIFF logs in to record a podcast or something,

01:45:02   after that, the computer is basically broken

01:45:04   until I reboot it.

01:45:05   Like mail search doesn't work,

01:45:07   touch ID doesn't work, watch unlock doesn't work,

01:45:09   any kind of spotlight,

01:45:10   anything based on the spotlight index doesn't work.

01:45:13   It's frankly baffling to me that Big Sur

01:45:15   has gotten as far as it has in the release cycle

01:45:18   and multi-user support is still completely broken

01:45:21   in this way.

01:45:22   - I don't think it's broken for everyone though,

01:45:25   because I'm running Big Sur on all our computers

01:45:27   and we perpetually have multiple people logged into them,

01:45:29   switching accounts all day long

01:45:30   and don't experience any of this.

01:45:31   Now, to be fair, we don't use Apple Mail at all, period,

01:45:34   across the entire family.

01:45:35   - There you go.

01:45:36   - We do use things like spotlight

01:45:38   and like nothing else seems broken,

01:45:40   'cause if it did, nothing in our house would function,

01:45:42   I would have downgraded everybody, right?

01:45:43   So mail may absolutely be broken,

01:45:45   but I mean, I'm not saying it's not happening to you,

01:45:47   but whatever it is causing it must be something

01:45:50   that either we don't have or that we aren't doing.

01:45:53   - Yeah, mail search breaks, watch unlock breaks,

01:45:55   and lots of things based on spotlight break.

01:45:57   It seems, and if you are on Big Sur and you switch users,

01:46:01   switch back, it will be broken until you reboot

01:46:05   and that's been persistent.

01:46:07   - Through every software update.

01:46:08   - But not spotlight, 'cause spotlight still does work for us.

01:46:10   We don't use watch unlock and we don't use Apple Mail,

01:46:13   so I do wonder what is the deal.

01:46:14   - Well, you can't.

01:46:16   You couldn't use them if you wanted to

01:46:17   because they would break in your setup.

01:46:18   - Although actually, wait a second,

01:46:19   I do use Apple Mail to download my Gmail,

01:46:22   it's just periodically, but I never do searches for it.

01:46:24   - Right, anyway, so multi-user mode is buggy

01:46:28   and there's lots of weird stuff that breaks.

01:46:30   So anyway, going back to the question,

01:46:32   like if you wanna have like separate accounts

01:46:34   for admin versus non-admin,

01:46:35   you have to give up a lot of convenience

01:46:38   and a lot of things working correctly all the time.

01:46:41   And what you get from that is this

01:46:43   theoretical security benefit that I think in practice,

01:46:47   you're not really benefiting from in most cases.

01:46:49   If it's a single user computer,

01:46:51   you're not really benefiting much at all.

01:46:52   And then secondly, you think about the practice

01:46:55   of what happens when you have one of these

01:46:58   non-admin accounts, you get asked a lot

01:47:01   to authorize with admin privileges

01:47:03   or you have to run a lot of things as pseudo

01:47:04   or enter the root password or whatever.

01:47:06   If you're doing this on a regular basis anyway,

01:47:09   you are regularly poking holes in that shield

01:47:11   out of necessity or convenience,

01:47:13   it kind of reduces the security

01:47:15   that you're actually getting in practice.

01:47:17   Because if you're constantly authorizing things

01:47:19   to run with root privileges here and there as needed,

01:47:22   are you really being that secure by having this account

01:47:25   be in this mode in the first place?

01:47:27   Like I feel like the real world security benefit of that

01:47:32   in most setups is not high,

01:47:34   whereas the inconvenience and potential bug exposure

01:47:39   and annoyance is high.

01:47:42   So I don't think it's worth it for most people to do that.

01:47:45   - Yeah, I tend to agree.

01:47:46   Duncan Wilcock writes, "I have about 400 video clips

01:47:49   "with my son and I want to join them

01:47:51   "into one three hour movie.

01:47:52   "I want 4K and 60 frames per second, original codec.

01:47:55   "Recommend a good tool please."

01:47:57   Hi, have you never heard of FFmpeg?

01:48:00   How long have you been listening to the show

01:48:02   that you've never heard of FFmpeg?

01:48:03   I mean, come on, man.

01:48:04   That's probably not the best solution to this problem,

01:48:07   but it is a solution.

01:48:09   Also, it gets a little dodgy if,

01:48:12   I'm not entirely sure what Duncan is saying.

01:48:14   I want 4K and 60 frames per second original codec.

01:48:17   I'm assuming that these are 400 video clips

01:48:21   coming from various different pieces of hardware

01:48:24   across presumably years where not everything started in 4K.

01:48:29   And this is all stuff that can be handled by FFmpeg,

01:48:31   but it does get dodgy kind of quickly.

01:48:34   Duncan writes that, "Apparently a Photos app slideshow

01:48:36   "is 1080p max and iMovie doesn't preserve date order

01:48:39   "if exported with edits."

01:48:42   I mean, this is not gonna be easy

01:48:45   with anything I know how to do.

01:48:46   You can do it with FFmpeg, but it would be semi-manual.

01:48:51   Do one of you have a better answer

01:48:52   or do we have to tell Duncan to ask me to help them out?

01:48:57   - This question was totally for you

01:48:59   just so you can say FFmpeg again.

01:49:00   Because yeah, this is one of those situations

01:49:03   where once you get into this type of question

01:49:05   where you're like, look, I've got a video.

01:49:06   I don't wanna do a thing to it,

01:49:08   but I wanna do exactly this thing and exactly this way.

01:49:10   You're basically singing a FFmpeg song.

01:49:12   And yeah, it's a painful song.

01:49:15   - It is.

01:49:16   - There may be other better tools.

01:49:17   I don't know.

01:49:17   - The lyrics make no sense.

01:49:19   - I'm just familiar with FFmpeg

01:49:21   because it's a very common tool

01:49:22   and Casey talks about it all the time.

01:49:24   But I'm sure professional video editors

01:49:28   or people who are familiar with different kinds of tools

01:49:29   have better ways to do this.

01:49:31   But if you don't wanna spend any money,

01:49:33   but just wanna get this job done

01:49:35   and you're willing to Google for a while,

01:49:37   FFmpeg will probably eventually do what you want

01:49:40   once you figure out how to make it work.

01:49:42   - And by Google for a while, he means a while.

01:49:46   - Yeah, I mean, you'll try a bunch of things

01:49:47   that don't work first.

01:49:48   Here's what I would recommend.

01:49:49   I mean, I don't know if Casey does a similar thing,

01:49:51   but every time I tried to mess with FFmpeg,

01:49:53   I have like test files that are very small

01:49:56   and I do all my testing on them.

01:49:58   They're representative.

01:49:59   They're the same as the files that I wanna deal with,

01:50:01   but maybe the file I wanna deal with

01:50:03   is like some like eight gig movie or something.

01:50:05   Don't do all your testing on that.

01:50:06   It'll take a long time.

01:50:08   Test with small files first.

01:50:10   And then when you finally get a working file

01:50:11   that has the characteristics that you want

01:50:13   and it figured out the mile long command line incantation,

01:50:17   then do it on your real files.

01:50:19   - Yeah, that's smart.

01:50:21   - Yeah, that's true.

01:50:22   Another thing I do is oftentimes

01:50:23   I just wanna test something.

01:50:24   I'll trim it to be, it's dash T, I believe,

01:50:28   or you can say only output like 10 seconds

01:50:31   or something like that.

01:50:32   So you can still use your eight gigabyte input,

01:50:34   but it's only gonna input,

01:50:35   it's only gonna output 10 seconds and it's gonna quit.

01:50:38   But yeah, I mean, you can do this with FFmpeg for sure.

01:50:41   It's actually not that complicated incantation.

01:50:43   The complicated thing would be that

01:50:45   the way I know how to do this

01:50:47   is that you would need a plain text file

01:50:49   that lists the names of all 400 videos

01:50:54   that you're looking to input.

01:50:55   And if you can get that, even if you do it by hand,

01:50:57   it's actually a very straightforward incantation

01:50:59   that I'll put in the show notes.

01:51:01   But that would require, again,

01:51:03   a file that reads it's plain text and it reads file space

01:51:07   and then a file name, new line,

01:51:08   file space, next file name, new line.

01:51:10   And then you can have FFmpeg concatenate all of those videos.

01:51:15   You would probably need to specify by hand

01:51:18   like output resolution and stuff like that.

01:51:20   So it's not, I guess it's not quite as easy as I thought,

01:51:22   but the idea of mashing 400 video clips together

01:51:26   is actually very straightforward

01:51:29   if you're willing to generate a file that has 400,

01:51:32   a plain text file that has 400 lines in it

01:51:34   that is the names of all the files you're trying to input.

01:51:37   So this is doable for sure.

01:51:40   And FFmpeg will do it.

01:51:41   I don't know if Handbrake will do this sort of thing.

01:51:43   Of course, anytime I say FFmpeg,

01:51:45   everyone else starts saying Handbrake

01:51:47   because Handbrake is in many respects

01:51:49   just a user interface, a GUI front end to FFmpeg.

01:51:54   Again, it's been a long time since we've played with Handbrake

01:51:56   and it might do this sort of thing.

01:51:58   And there is a Handbrake CLI for doing it on the command line

01:52:01   which maybe would do this sort of thing.

01:52:03   But yeah, it's certainly FFmpeg will do it.

01:52:07   And it's not that inherently difficult.

01:52:10   It is workable.

01:52:11   And building on what Jon was saying about

01:52:13   how do you get to be decent at FFmpeg?

01:52:15   I think I mentioned this before, but in Apple Notes,

01:52:17   which is now my repository of random information,

01:52:21   just like Evernote once was,

01:52:22   have you heard about WorkChat?

01:52:24   Well, in Apple Notes, I have a folder that is FFmpeg.

01:52:28   And it's just examples of different incantations

01:52:30   that I have used and I thought I would come back to

01:52:34   at some point.

01:52:35   And this one of them is concatenating files.

01:52:37   And I can remember how to do it off the top of my head now,

01:52:40   but for the first 10, 15 times I did it,

01:52:42   I was like, wait, what do I need to do?

01:52:43   And what does that plain text thing look like?

01:52:46   And how does that work?

01:52:47   And so having that sort of thing handy is very, very useful.

01:52:52   And also, if you're not really familiar with FFmpeg,

01:52:55   I'll put my primer that I wrote, I don't know,

01:52:58   how was it, three, four years ago now it looks like,

01:53:00   I'll put that in the show notes for you to look at.

01:53:03   Moving right along, Brandon Weese writes,

01:53:07   how does Overcast scrape iTunes?

01:53:09   Does it use the iTunes search API

01:53:10   or does it scrape it from web pages?

01:53:12   - It uses the iTunes search API.

01:53:14   It's a very simple answer.

01:53:15   It's not that interesting, but yeah, that's it.

01:53:18   I use the iTunes search API.

01:53:19   It's been around forever.

01:53:21   Apple seems to be okay with people using it in this way,

01:53:25   and they have been for some time.

01:53:27   It has basically never changed.

01:53:29   I would not wanna build something

01:53:33   based around scraping web pages

01:53:34   that I was actually making into a product

01:53:36   for other people to use.

01:53:37   'Cause just scraping web pages is both hard to maintain

01:53:41   and unreliable and can possibly get you into legal issues

01:53:45   with the people you are scraping them from,

01:53:47   and that's just, it's not worth doing anything

01:53:49   that requires that if you're intending to make it

01:53:52   a serious effort that you're giving people.

01:53:55   I use the API the way I'm allowed to, and that's it.

01:53:57   - The API is so old, is it like a SOAP API?

01:54:00   What is it that returns?

01:54:01   - It returns JSON, actually.

01:54:03   - Wow, it's pretty modern, fancy.

01:54:05   - Yeah, it's super easy to use.

01:54:07   It's one of those things, it's kinda like Usenet.

01:54:10   Just don't talk about it,

01:54:12   because it seems too good to be true,

01:54:13   and we don't want somebody to realize this exists

01:54:16   and shut it down.

01:54:17   So we don't talk about it.

01:54:20   Anyway, thank you to our sponsors this week,

01:54:22   Squarespace, HelloFresh, and Linode,

01:54:25   and thank you to our members who support us directly.

01:54:27   You can join atp.fm/join.

01:54:30   You can use our new annual or monthly options

01:54:33   in your currency of choice,

01:54:34   if your choice happens to be US dollars,

01:54:36   Euro, or Great British pounds.

01:54:38   Thank you, everybody, and we will talk to you next week.

01:54:42   (upbeat music)

01:54:44   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

01:54:46   ♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

01:54:49   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:54:51   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:54:52   ♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪

01:54:54   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:54:55   ♪ John didn't do any research ♪

01:54:57   ♪ Marco and Casey wouldn't let him ♪

01:55:00   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:55:01   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:55:02   ♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪

01:55:04   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:55:05   ♪ And you can find the show notes at atp.fm ♪

01:55:10   ♪ And if you're into Twitter ♪

01:55:13   ♪ You can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S ♪

01:55:18   ♪ So that's Casey Liss ♪

01:55:21   ♪ M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M ♪

01:55:24   ♪ N-T-M-A-R-C-O-R-M-N ♪

01:55:26   ♪ S-I-R-A-C ♪

01:55:29   ♪ U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A ♪

01:55:31   ♪ It's accidental ♪

01:55:33   ♪ It's accidental ♪

01:55:35   ♪ They didn't mean to accidental ♪

01:55:38   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:55:39   ♪ Tech podcast so long ♪

01:55:43   - I have some bell follow-up.

01:55:47   - Some bell follow-up, I did not see that coming.

01:55:49   All right, tell me more.

01:55:50   - Did you break another bell?

01:55:51   - No, I fixed the original bell.

01:55:53   - Whoa. - Oh, excellent.

01:55:55   - So I pulled out of the closet the other day

01:55:57   'cause I had a theory.

01:55:59   I had heard on one of the recent Merlin podcasts,

01:56:02   I forget which one, I probably do by Friday,

01:56:05   he was playing with a magnet with his bell.

01:56:09   Now these are metal bells and I thought,

01:56:12   oh, wait a minute, maybe the reason mine

01:56:14   was getting all rattly was that the metal

01:56:16   got magnetized in transit.

01:56:19   'Cause if it gets magnetized, maybe the little hammer thing

01:56:22   in there that hits it doesn't pull back correctly

01:56:24   and sticks to it a little too long

01:56:26   or makes it rattle weirdly.

01:56:28   So I thought, I, from the war of watches,

01:56:31   I have a deep magnetizer.

01:56:33   So I thought maybe I can fix my original bell,

01:56:35   maybe it got magnetized by being transported

01:56:38   next to an iPad smart cover or something.

01:56:40   And great, I can just run my deep magnetizer around.

01:56:43   So I took it out and I waved over my compass

01:56:47   to test whether it was magnetized or not.

01:56:49   And it wasn't.

01:56:50   And I thought, okay, well, there goes that theory.

01:56:52   But then I took out the working bell

01:56:55   and I held them side by side and compared them.

01:56:58   And I realized that the old broken bell,

01:57:01   the dome of the main bell-shaped part of the bell,

01:57:06   it was not resting level on the broken one.

01:57:09   It was tilted and it was touching the bottom base part.

01:57:14   Whereas the functioning bell had a perfectly even air gap

01:57:18   between those two parts.

01:57:19   - Your broken one was muting itself,

01:57:21   like you mute strings in a guitar.

01:57:22   - A little bit, yeah, except rattling itself instead.

01:57:24   I thought, well, let me see if I can fix that.

01:57:28   This is just metal, maybe I can bend it back into place.

01:57:32   And sure enough, a $10 bell is not made

01:57:36   of very high quality or thick metal.

01:57:38   So I could just bend it back with my hands.

01:57:41   And now I have the original bell back to its former glory.

01:57:46   It works fine.

01:57:48   I could just, at some point in its various trips

01:57:51   to WBC or the beach or whatever,

01:57:53   it probably just got compressed in a bag

01:57:56   and it bent down slightly and bent the metal.

01:57:59   Now I have repaired my bell.

01:58:01   I believe in repairability and reuse

01:58:05   before I recycle things,

01:58:06   I have my original bell back in service.

01:58:09   - Before you order 50 other bells

01:58:10   in an attempt to get a new one of the original bell.

01:58:13   - Which I'll never be able to get again.

01:58:15   - Well, it's a good thing, like my broken cheese graters.

01:58:17   I keep them around too for parts.

01:58:19   It's a good thing you kept the original bell around.

01:58:21   - Yup, yup, so here we are.

01:58:23   I'm back on the original bell.

01:58:25   - Yeah, I can tell it has a warmer sound.

01:58:27   (beeping)