417: Sand and Water Interface


00:00:00   - Marco, I have two questions for you deeply unrelated.

00:00:02   (laughing)

00:00:03   - To each other or to Tech?

00:00:05   (laughing)

00:00:06   - Deeply unrelated to each other.

00:00:07   First of all, how's your call recorder doing?

00:00:10   - It's gone, man, I'm all M1.

00:00:12   - Jon, how's your call recorder?

00:00:14   - I have a question for Marco about call recorder

00:00:16   before I tell you about my call recorder.

00:00:18   - Oh, no.

00:00:19   (laughing)

00:00:19   Oh, no, this must be quick.

00:00:21   What are we doing?

00:00:22   - Did you actually try call recorder on your M1?

00:00:25   - Well, yes, because I have to,

00:00:27   because the stupid installation that I'm still on,

00:00:30   that it was imported from my iMac,

00:00:32   call recorder's on it, and so every time I launch Skype,

00:00:34   it pops up a thing saying, "Hey, you gotta update me."

00:00:36   So I humor it, I'm like, "All right, sure, go ahead.

00:00:39   "Let's see what you got."

00:00:41   And so it tries to update, and it instantly launches,

00:00:44   and it's like, "Oh, I can't do this.

00:00:46   "What am I talking about?

00:00:47   "I can't run on this architecture.

00:00:48   "I'll never run on this architecture."

00:00:50   - But see, that's my question.

00:00:52   Why can't it, is it a dialogue from the app itself?

00:00:55   Why can't it just run on Rosetta?

00:00:56   - I don't know how exactly it hooks into Skype.

00:00:59   My best guess is that whatever mechanism it uses

00:01:02   to hook into Skype has been tightened security-wise

00:01:06   on the M1 Macs and no longer works,

00:01:09   and there probably is no good alternative

00:01:10   without doing a kernel extension or something,

00:01:13   which if you had to install any of our friend

00:01:16   Ruger Mieba's audio product, you know that that process

00:01:19   is kinda cumbersome in Big Sur on an M1 Mac,

00:01:22   and so I'm guessing that's the kind of thing they ran into.

00:01:26   It's not that they have some x86 assembly code

00:01:29   they don't wanna port.

00:01:30   It's much more likely that the mechanism

00:01:32   by which it hooks into Skype at all

00:01:35   is somehow broken with this new architecture.

00:01:37   - Yeah, that's what I assumed,

00:01:38   but I hadn't actually heard anyone who had tried it,

00:01:40   so I guess Merlin asked about that on our last podcast.

00:01:42   He's like, "Well, does it just not run at all,

00:01:44   "or does it run just in Rosetta?"

00:01:46   And I didn't know, so it's good to know

00:01:47   that it's not unsupported.

00:01:50   It just is a no-go entirely.

00:01:52   - It launches, presumably using Rosetta,

00:01:54   to display a dialog box saying this doesn't work,

00:01:56   and then quits. (laughs)

00:01:58   - All right, anyway, yeah, my call recorder's fine,

00:01:59   'cause I'm on Intel, and it'll be fine

00:02:01   until I'm not on Intel.

00:02:03   - I gotta get rid of this installation.

00:02:03   - Old Mac users unite.

00:02:05   - Like, I'm still on it because I haven't,

00:02:09   there's never a good time to reinstall your OS

00:02:11   on your main computer.

00:02:12   That's never a fun thing, but,

00:02:14   and man, I've gone so many years

00:02:17   using the same installations.

00:02:19   My entire time using Macs, which is since 2004,

00:02:23   I think I've had a total of three installations

00:02:26   of Mac OS on my desktop.

00:02:27   Laptops, they're throwaway, whatever.

00:02:29   But desktop, my main desktop installations,

00:02:31   I bring them forward for a long time.

00:02:34   That seems to be impossible on Catalina forward.

00:02:37   Like, they just, Catalina was such a garbage fire

00:02:40   that anything that has ever touched Catalina

00:02:43   is messy and has problems like the weird

00:02:47   Chrome is bad Windows Server thing.

00:02:48   There's so many weird things that seem to be related

00:02:51   to Catalina installs rotting and going badly.

00:02:54   The same way old Windows installs used to slowly

00:02:56   just slow down and accumulate problems over time.

00:02:59   It feels like Windows, it really does.

00:03:01   Now, this feels like back when I used to reinstall

00:03:04   Windows XP and Windows 2000 every nine months,

00:03:07   this feels like that again.

00:03:08   It feels like you kinda have to keep things clean.

00:03:10   The installation I have on my Mac Mini,

00:03:13   which is the imported iMac installation,

00:03:15   is so much worse and has so many weird problems

00:03:18   than the one I have on my fresh new MacBook Air

00:03:20   that was a fresh installation.

00:03:22   So, I gotta move over.

00:03:24   But again, there's never a good time to do that.

00:03:27   - You can try just doing some house cleaning.

00:03:28   I mean, I'm using essentially my install

00:03:31   that I imported from Catalina,

00:03:32   that I imported from whatever.

00:03:34   I'm using my 2008 Mac Pro, brought onto this Mac

00:03:38   through Migration Assistant and then upgraded

00:03:40   to Big Sur in place.

00:03:42   I haven't done any clean installs is what I'm saying.

00:03:44   I did spend a little bit of time going through the cruft

00:03:47   and cleaning out things that I thought were old.

00:03:50   I did that actually before Big Sur.

00:03:52   I just did it when it was still in Catalina,

00:03:54   using just the normal suite of tools

00:03:56   that are available to do that.

00:03:59   Actually, I'm gonna do a recommendation

00:04:00   for one of these things.

00:04:01   What the hell is it called?

00:04:02   Hang on.

00:04:03   - You should use a utility, like a Mac cleaning utility.

00:04:05   Or a defragger.

00:04:07   - No, that's not actually what I want.

00:04:08   The application that I like for the type of thing

00:04:11   that most people forget about is called Launch Control.

00:04:15   And it's a launch services editing application.

00:04:20   Again, you don't need an app to do this.

00:04:21   It's all a bunch of XML files

00:04:22   and you can do it all yourself.

00:04:24   But having an app that does it is super convenient.

00:04:26   And that's where you find the real dark matter

00:04:29   of stuff that you had no idea

00:04:30   was still running on your computer.

00:04:31   Now, I will caution you that if you don't understand

00:04:34   what these things are, you can really screw up your computer.

00:04:36   So don't just get it and say,

00:04:38   "I don't know what any of this crap is."

00:04:39   Delete it all, 'cause you will break everything.

00:04:41   But if you have some confidence

00:04:43   that you can tell what things are,

00:04:46   and if you're super duper sure,

00:04:48   "Oh, I'm not running VirtualBox anymore.

00:04:50   "It's totally uninstalled and I haven't used it in 60 years,

00:04:52   "and yet there is a VirtualBox user agent running.

00:04:56   "I know I don't need that."

00:04:57   And yes, I'm sure that because it says VirtualBox,

00:05:00   it really is VirtualBox.

00:05:01   And I'll double check and I'll look,

00:05:03   then you can clean that out and say,

00:05:04   "Why am I running this?"

00:05:05   And all these things aren't running.

00:05:06   They're just available to run on demand

00:05:08   in response to certain things.

00:05:09   So you kinda also have to understand

00:05:10   how LaunchD works on the Mac and it's complicated.

00:05:13   But anyway, I found tons of old crappy stuff

00:05:16   to be able to be cleaned out.

00:05:17   And then also just looking for,

00:05:19   in your case you'd be looking for Intel binaries

00:05:21   where you're like, "Ah, let me just delete that

00:05:23   "because I don't plan on using it.

00:05:24   "If I ever do, I should re-download the M1 version."

00:05:28   I did this for 64-bit to 32-bit transition.

00:05:31   Just general house cleaning of finding stuff

00:05:33   that you haven't used in forever that you don't want

00:05:35   and then really cleaning it off of your system

00:05:37   instead of just dragging the icon to the trash.

00:05:39   - One thing, all of my Adobe stuff is broken.

00:05:42   (laughing)

00:05:43   - Well, I mean, how can you tell?

00:05:44   - Well, that's fair.

00:05:46   Like won't launch, broken.

00:05:48   - So I've got, speaking of that,

00:05:49   I just launched Launch Control.

00:05:50   They're one of the user agencies.

00:05:53   com.adobe.gc.invoker-1.0.

00:05:56   I have long since refused to let that thing load.

00:05:59   So it's not, you can set it in various different states.

00:06:02   Again, you have to look up the LaunchD documentation

00:06:03   to figure this out.

00:06:04   So it is unloaded right now.

00:06:06   So it's not running.

00:06:08   But I still am not sure if I can actually delete it

00:06:11   because Adobe stuff puts so many things on your system.

00:06:13   And I do wanna use Photoshop.

00:06:15   Like I pay for Photoshop and have it and use it

00:06:18   and you have to get the Creative Cloud and all.

00:06:21   Like that has to be there,

00:06:22   otherwise nothing for Adobe will work.

00:06:25   But I never know which part of it is like from a decade ago

00:06:27   that I can safely delete and which part of it

00:06:29   if I delete that one file,

00:06:30   I'll never be able to update an Adobe app again.

00:06:33   - Yeah, I eventually was able to reinstall Creative Cloud

00:06:37   and I got Audition working.

00:06:39   Audition is the only Adobe app

00:06:40   that I really don't have any good other apps

00:06:44   that can replace.

00:06:45   I don't have anything else

00:06:47   that can do what Audition does for me.

00:06:49   Now maybe I'll start looking a little bit harder

00:06:51   because it's crazy for me to think that I'm keeping

00:06:56   all of this Adobe craft around

00:06:58   and paying this subscription

00:06:59   for basically just Photoshop and Audition.

00:07:01   And Photoshop, I haven't gotten to launch

00:07:03   in this computer yet.

00:07:05   And so it turns out I had bought Pixelmator Pro

00:07:09   during one of the times it was on sale

00:07:10   like in the last couple years.

00:07:12   And I just never opened it because I'm like,

00:07:13   oh, I should buy this, I might need this someday.

00:07:15   And I always have Photoshop

00:07:17   so it was always the easier path to just use the app I knew.

00:07:20   But last week I had to do some basic manipulation

00:07:23   of something for, I think for our show art actually,

00:07:25   for whatever I was doing for chapter art and stuff.

00:07:28   And I did it, I couldn't launch Photoshop

00:07:29   and it was easier for me to just launch Pixelmator

00:07:32   instead of trying to fix Photoshop.

00:07:33   So I launched Pixelmator Pro

00:07:37   and just started hitting the key commands

00:07:39   that work in Photoshop

00:07:41   and they all work in Pixelmator Pro

00:07:42   'cause a lot of people would face this problem

00:07:44   so they've accommodated for that.

00:07:46   And so I just started doing things

00:07:48   the way I would do it there.

00:07:50   And it mostly worked,

00:07:52   like the icons are in different places

00:07:53   and everything looks a little bit different

00:07:55   but most of the functionality that I actually needed,

00:07:58   I don't know about the rest of the app,

00:07:59   which it's a pretty big app,

00:08:00   but most of the functionality that I needed

00:08:02   out of a basic image editor,

00:08:04   Pixelmator Pro had it just fine.

00:08:05   And so that's one more Adobe thing off my list.

00:08:08   Like I might not need Photoshop anymore.

00:08:11   So maybe I'm just gonna get Audition

00:08:13   and then they actually,

00:08:14   I think they have a special subscription

00:08:15   that's just for one app,

00:08:16   if you just only need one.

00:08:18   Just down to Audition now,

00:08:19   I gotta figure out how to either fix Photoshop or downgrade.

00:08:24   - I got super into the Affinity suite of products,

00:08:28   Affinity Designer, Affinity whatever,

00:08:30   there's like three or four apps.

00:08:31   There's like the one that's Illustrator,

00:08:33   the one that's Photoshop,

00:08:34   they have to have a photo thing.

00:08:36   I got into them when I was working on the T-shirt stuff

00:08:38   'cause I used to have a thing of Illustrator

00:08:41   and then it was no longer licensed.

00:08:43   And so I was getting like,

00:08:43   like you said, the one application for one month

00:08:46   and you pay like eight bucks.

00:08:47   And so I would just like pay eight bucks for Illustrator

00:08:48   for a month to do a T-shirt for us

00:08:50   and then just let it expire.

00:08:51   And then you couldn't do that anymore, I think.

00:08:53   And so it's let me just get the Affinity Designer.

00:08:55   And I use that for a bunch of shirts and I liked it.

00:08:57   And when I was going through and cleaning stuff out,

00:08:59   I think it was maybe the 32 to 64 transition

00:09:02   or maybe a little bit later,

00:09:03   I was going through like my serial numbers

00:09:05   and all the other stuff.

00:09:06   And I realized I bought most of the Affinity suite twice.

00:09:10   I don't know how they even let me do that.

00:09:12   But like I bought it once when it was like,

00:09:13   oh, it's a cheap bundle, get all these apps for a price.

00:09:15   And then I also bought the individual three apps

00:09:17   that I want.

00:09:18   So I really need to pay attention

00:09:19   to what the hell I'm buying in software.

00:09:21   - All right, so Marco, I said I had two questions for you.

00:09:26   My other-

00:09:27   - Two quick questions, 10 minutes later.

00:09:28   - Well, I thought that the first one was gonna be quick.

00:09:31   I should have known better.

00:09:31   I should have in retrospect reversed these.

00:09:33   Maybe we'll do it from the magic of editing, I don't know.

00:09:35   But- - No, we won't.

00:09:37   - Yeah, I know, my icebreaker/warmup/let's ease

00:09:41   into the show, I don't know, five, 10 minutes in,

00:09:44   is, and I think we've discussed this in the past,

00:09:47   but I'm curious to hear your answer now,

00:09:50   because I think it may have changed quite dramatically.

00:09:53   If you had to pack up and leave New York State,

00:09:57   and in fact leave the entire Eastern Seaboard,

00:10:01   where would you go?

00:10:02   - Oh, geez.

00:10:04   See, before I discovered the beach,

00:10:07   and I found my happy place, I would say,

00:10:10   "Yeah, I don't care, whatever, it doesn't matter."

00:10:12   But now that I like this place a lot,

00:10:16   it's a little harder of a decision,

00:10:17   I think I like being near the water a lot.

00:10:22   And so I think I would, with a heavy heart,

00:10:28   go to California.

00:10:29   - Oh, that's a bad choice, no.

00:10:31   You want sort of Long Island methadone,

00:10:34   and Long Island methadone is called like Cape Cod,

00:10:36   Nantucket, Martha Zinnia.

00:10:37   - He said the whole Eastern Seaboard.

00:10:38   - No, the Eastern Seaboard's off limits.

00:10:41   - Those are not.

00:10:41   And I could go to the Gulf, maybe, but like,

00:10:44   I don't know.

00:10:45   - If you're looking, I'm saying like,

00:10:47   the beaches in California are very different.

00:10:49   - Agreed.

00:10:50   - Than the ones in Long Island.

00:10:51   And the land that leads up to the beaches are different.

00:10:54   - Yeah, I mean, I care less about the actual

00:10:56   like sand and water interface,

00:10:58   and more about just like the air, and the sound,

00:11:03   and the climate that you get when you're next to the ocean.

00:11:06   Like that is what I like much more.

00:11:07   - I know, but that's different too,

00:11:09   because it's a gigantic landmass

00:11:11   butting up against the Pacific Ocean

00:11:13   with all these weird weather patterns.

00:11:14   It's nothing like where you are.

00:11:15   Forget about the water,

00:11:16   say you never even touch the water.

00:11:18   Like just the land is different.

00:11:19   You need like an, you're on a little island.

00:11:22   You want island life.

00:11:23   Maybe you should go to the Bahamas, I don't know.

00:11:24   - Yeah, I mean, maybe like, you know, Caribbean,

00:11:26   'cause like it's all, there's no winter there.

00:11:28   That would be nice.

00:11:29   The, but yeah, the answer is probably like,

00:11:31   I would go to some other coast, you know.

00:11:33   Maybe even Europe, maybe?

00:11:35   Like Europe seems a little more stable

00:11:38   than California in certain ways.

00:11:40   But it has its own issues, you know.

00:11:43   So I don't know, I mean, everywhere has its issues.

00:11:46   So hopefully I wouldn't have to make that decision.

00:11:49   But if I did, I think the most likely outcome

00:11:50   would probably end up being California.

00:11:53   - See, I think for me,

00:11:54   I would probably stay on the Eastern Seaboard,

00:11:56   but I already declared that's not allowed.

00:11:58   So with that in mind--

00:11:59   - Yeah, if that was allowed, I'd just go,

00:12:00   yeah, I don't know, Boston or, you know,

00:12:02   the Carolinas or something like that.

00:12:03   There's lots of other good places on the Eastern Seaboard.

00:12:06   - And I think I speak for all three of us in saying,

00:12:08   whether we're from the north, from the south,

00:12:11   or somewhere in between, I think all three of us

00:12:13   seem to dramatically prefer the Eastern Seaboard

00:12:15   to anywhere else.

00:12:17   For me, I think if I had to leave the Eastern Seaboard,

00:12:20   I would really want to investigate the Pacific Northwest,

00:12:23   'cause I've never even visited,

00:12:24   and I've heard universally good things,

00:12:26   and except maybe weather.

00:12:29   And so I would want to at least check it out,

00:12:31   but I think I might end up in Austin,

00:12:34   'cause I lived in Austin as a middle schooler

00:12:37   and really enjoyed it,

00:12:38   and I know that's super trendy to say now,

00:12:40   but I was there before it was cool.

00:12:42   - There's a lot more traffic now.

00:12:43   - Yeah, a lot more traffic as well.

00:12:45   - I don't know, I'm not sure how well you'd deal with that.

00:12:49   I know Austin seems super cool and everything,

00:12:51   but it's in the middle of a not super cool area.

00:12:54   - Remember where I live today.

00:12:56   - Yeah, exactly.

00:12:57   - So John, where would you go?

00:12:58   - Still not the same.

00:13:01   I mean, I obviously need to be somewhere near the coast,

00:13:04   even though you think I'm not now,

00:13:05   but I really am in the grand scheme of things.

00:13:07   If you look at the dot on the map, it's near the water.

00:13:10   California is such a big place

00:13:12   that I'm pretty sure there's some place in California

00:13:15   that I could probably tolerate,

00:13:16   I just haven't found it yet.

00:13:18   (laughing)

00:13:19   - Probably tolerate.

00:13:20   - It's a big place, right?

00:13:21   I haven't been to all of it.

00:13:23   Pacific Northwest, I don't think I would be able

00:13:25   to handle the weather and the vibe.

00:13:29   I don't know, I always think about, I mean, this is Canada,

00:13:32   but some places in Canada I think I would be happy

00:13:36   for two months out of the year.

00:13:38   - Yeah, that's the problem.

00:13:39   - The warm two months?

00:13:40   - Yeah, I could just live on Prince Edward Island

00:13:41   for two months out of the year

00:13:43   and then just blink out of existence

00:13:45   for the rest of the year and then blink back into existence

00:13:47   for those two months on Prince Edward Island.

00:13:48   I think I'd be pretty happy there.

00:13:51   - That's fair.

00:13:51   - The Pacific Northwest, whenever I've been there,

00:13:54   I've thought, this is a very nice place

00:13:56   for people who are not me.

00:13:58   It seems like it's a fantastic place for a lot of people,

00:14:03   but it's not for me.

00:14:04   And California, I think I'm with Jon on that,

00:14:08   I find a lot of nice places in California.

00:14:11   I've never found the place yet

00:14:13   that I would want to live, necessarily.

00:14:16   And I can tell you one thing, it would not be San Francisco.

00:14:19   That is not for me at all.

00:14:20   But I have-- - Hard to agree.

00:14:21   - The parts of California that I've seen

00:14:23   that have been a little bit outside of San Francisco,

00:14:26   the various suburbs, up north, the Marin area,

00:14:28   down south, basically between that little beach town

00:14:32   and Santa Cruz, that whole strip,

00:14:33   there's a lot of very nice places.

00:14:36   Half Moon Bay is what I'm thinking of,

00:14:37   Half Moon Bay and Santa Cruz, that whole area.

00:14:40   I've liked seeing a lot of that,

00:14:41   but again, I don't know enough about it

00:14:43   to actually say I'd want to live here.

00:14:44   And I've actually never seen LA in that whole area,

00:14:46   like the whole bottom half, I've never seen it.

00:14:49   - I feel like it's trendy to hate on LA,

00:14:50   and insert the letter Kenny, LA right here.

00:14:53   But I actually quite enjoy LA,

00:14:55   and in fact, I strongly agree with you

00:14:57   that San Francisco's not for me.

00:14:59   I think that having never experienced

00:15:02   the Pacific Northwest, I suspect if I went,

00:15:04   I would come to a similar conclusion.

00:15:05   Great place, not for me.

00:15:07   But I actually really enjoy Southern California,

00:15:10   and I've only ever been to the greater LA area.

00:15:12   I've been to LA proper, I've been around LA a lot.

00:15:15   I've never been way Southern California,

00:15:17   like San Diego, for example.

00:15:19   And honestly, I can only speak for me,

00:15:21   but there's no way I could afford

00:15:22   to live in basically anywhere in California.

00:15:24   But I actually prefer LA in that area.

00:15:27   Sprawl be darned, I prefer LA over Northern California,

00:15:31   for me, I'm not saying it's the same for everyone else.

00:15:33   - So far what we've learned is that

00:15:34   you wanna live places with terrible traffic.

00:15:36   - Yeah, I guess, which is funny, 'cause I really don't.

00:15:39   - I mean, you said the same thing, Marco.

00:15:40   Have you been in those areas of California long enough

00:15:43   to actually try getting to that beach

00:15:44   on a day when you might want to go to the beach?

00:15:47   Like, the traffic in California is ridiculous.

00:15:49   - I live on the beach, man.

00:15:51   - I know, but you don't have, like, that's the secret.

00:15:52   You don't have the traffic.

00:15:54   To getting away from the people,

00:15:55   one of the beautiful and terrible things about Long Island

00:15:58   is as you go out on it to the extremities,

00:16:00   both man-made and natural forces align

00:16:04   to make it very difficult to get there,

00:16:06   which is terrible when you're trying to get there,

00:16:08   but good once you're there.

00:16:09   - Right, yeah.

00:16:10   - So that's, if you're, again, California,

00:16:13   being this massive place with all of these highways,

00:16:17   and you can get right to the water in all of them,

00:16:19   it's very difficult, unless you're gonna go out

00:16:21   to one of the islands off the coast of California

00:16:22   or something, it's very difficult to get away

00:16:24   from the people, you know,

00:16:26   to get to lower population density, essentially.

00:16:28   If you want lower population density, it's real easy.

00:16:30   If you go to live in the desert or someplace, you know,

00:16:33   in the middle of the country

00:16:33   that has much lower population density,

00:16:35   and I feel like that's one of the things

00:16:36   that you've always said you appreciate about Fire Island

00:16:38   is there's not, you know, a traffic jam every day

00:16:42   and, you know, tons of people, like, coming and going

00:16:45   and all that other stuff.

00:16:47   It is, you feel like you are, it's more relaxing

00:16:49   because you're away from the rad race, right?

00:16:52   - Yes, but in a strangely dense place,

00:16:56   but it's just everyone, but almost everyone's on foot

00:16:58   most of the time, like--

00:16:59   - Yeah, you're on top of each other

00:17:00   'cause you're on this tiny, tiny little thing, right?

00:17:02   But it's not, you know, no one is commuting

00:17:05   to and from Manhattan from Fire Island every day,

00:17:08   and there's a giant traffic jam when you try to go shopping

00:17:10   because everyone's on their way home from work

00:17:12   also stopping at the store.

00:17:13   That doesn't exist.

00:17:14   - That's the thing, like, when you,

00:17:16   I mean, so much of your happiness in life depends on,

00:17:21   like, your daily grind.

00:17:22   Like, do you have a bad commute?

00:17:24   Do you have a super long commute?

00:17:25   Is your commute always full of, you know,

00:17:27   angering traffic or stuff like that?

00:17:29   Like, that stuff matters so much to everyone's happiness.

00:17:31   - Okay, when you wanna go food shopping,

00:17:33   do you dread it because it's gonna be so packed

00:17:35   and you're gonna be waiting on a checkout line for an hour

00:17:37   and you won't be able to find a parking spot,

00:17:39   like, that type of stuff?

00:17:40   - Exactly, like, if doing everyday stuff is hard.

00:17:42   Like, I remember, like, one of the impressions I had,

00:17:45   we lived in Brooklyn for a year,

00:17:46   it was very clear that, like, all of the, like,

00:17:48   delivery people, like, you know, UPS drivers, the mail people,

00:17:51   like, everyone who kinda, like, had to work in Brooklyn

00:17:54   was always angry because doing common tasks

00:17:58   in the area of Brooklyn we were in is just difficult

00:18:00   'cause there's just tons of traffic constantly

00:18:03   and everyone's mad at each other all the time.

00:18:05   It's very, like, tense and it just,

00:18:07   there's just tons of friction to a lot of stuff.

00:18:10   Whereas, like, here, everyone's really chill and happy

00:18:14   because there is so little friction

00:18:16   to the admittedly limited things that we have access to

00:18:19   but what we have access to is really great

00:18:22   and really easy to just go do.

00:18:24   And so, like, and this is a place where, like,

00:18:26   people come here and they can just kinda be happy

00:18:28   and they can, like, you know, it's like a storybook.

00:18:30   You're like, ride your bike to the grocery store

00:18:31   and you ride home with, like, a bag in your bike basket

00:18:34   with, like, a baguette and a pineapple sticking at the top

00:18:36   so that you know it's from a grocery store.

00:18:38   That's how you indicate that.

00:18:40   And it's just nice, it's like a, it's a nice, pleasant thing

00:18:42   and, you know, compared to before where we were living

00:18:46   and just, I'd have to, you know, get in the car,

00:18:48   drive across, oh, of course, they're tearing up the street

00:18:52   again to put in more water main work somehow.

00:18:56   Somehow this work needs to be done every six months

00:18:59   on every street in Westchester.

00:19:01   I don't know, like, we joke,

00:19:03   there must be, like, a construction mafia.

00:19:04   Like, there's some kind of, like, under the table deals

00:19:07   where somehow they're tearing up every main street

00:19:10   in Westchester to do water main work every six months.

00:19:14   I don't know why it still needs to be done so often,

00:19:16   more often than anywhere I've ever lived.

00:19:18   - They should come to my neighborhood

00:19:19   because the road in front of my house

00:19:20   desperately needs work and it's never gonna get done.

00:19:23   - Yeah, oh, and when, you know, when they're done,

00:19:25   they don't repave the road nicely,

00:19:26   they just kind of patch it up and so it's all,

00:19:28   it's a bumpy mess of, like, patches

00:19:30   and those iron plate things.

00:19:32   But, like, you know, there's so much friction involved

00:19:35   and just, like, okay, I have to go pick up something

00:19:37   at the grocery store or I have to go, you know,

00:19:39   it's time to go pick up our kid at school or something.

00:19:41   Like, common tasks, when common tasks have lots of friction,

00:19:45   that is a recipe for just stress and anxiety

00:19:47   and frustration and anger and just unhappiness.

00:19:50   Whereas the more of those everyday things

00:19:52   that you can strip that frustration from,

00:19:54   the, like, it pays massive dividends in overall happiness.

00:19:58   And that's part of the reason why I love it here,

00:20:00   is, like, a lot of that stuff is just a lot nicer.

00:20:03   - You know, it's interesting to me,

00:20:04   I wonder if in the after times I could convince,

00:20:07   you know, you guys to come down to Cape Charles,

00:20:10   which in so many ways, having never experienced Fire Island,

00:20:13   in so many ways strikes me as a very similar thing

00:20:15   because there's this historic district

00:20:17   where it's a grid of, you know, not that many streets

00:20:20   and not that many avenues,

00:20:21   and you can walk to pretty much anything.

00:20:24   There are cars, for sure,

00:20:26   but most people don't bother using them

00:20:28   'cause you really don't need to.

00:20:29   It's a very chill, laid back vibe.

00:20:31   But the difference is it's not separated

00:20:33   from the rest of the world, well, it kind of is,

00:20:37   but it's not as dramatically separated

00:20:38   from the rest of the world that requires a ferry.

00:20:40   Like, you would still need to drive over

00:20:41   a humongous, tremendously long bridge tunnel thing,

00:20:44   but you don't need to take a ferry in,

00:20:46   so you can get deliveries in less than a week,

00:20:49   which is kind of cool.

00:20:50   So I wonder if you would enjoy,

00:20:52   not to say it would cause you to move or anything like that,

00:20:54   because there's a million and seven reasons

00:20:56   why I know you'd want to stay in New York,

00:20:57   but just, I think a lot of the perks,

00:21:01   again, not apples to apples,

00:21:02   but a lot of the perks from Fire Island you can get,

00:21:04   or I can get in Cape Charles,

00:21:06   with in some cases fewer of the drawbacks.

00:21:09   Yeah, it would never happen.

00:21:10   (electronic beeping)

00:21:12   - All right, gentlemen, your DTKs,

00:21:14   they are worth a lot more today

00:21:16   than they were a week ago today, which is super exciting.

00:21:19   - Yeah, this was great.

00:21:21   You know, we talked briefly last week

00:21:23   about how Apple had offered a very weirdly

00:21:26   short time windowed $200 credit

00:21:29   for the Apple Silicon DTKs back,

00:21:33   and they have heard us and they agree,

00:21:37   us being the general community developers

00:21:40   who was kind of like, that's not very good.

00:21:42   (laughing)

00:21:44   So yeah, they are revising their offer.

00:21:47   No one's actually gotten this yet,

00:21:48   'cause they still haven't sent the email

00:21:50   that says, all right, now send it in with this label.

00:21:52   They're just saying that this will happen shortly.

00:21:54   But yeah, they've revised it,

00:21:56   so now instead of a $200 credit that expires on May 31st

00:22:00   that seemingly could only be used on an M1 Mac,

00:22:04   now they're giving us a $500 credit,

00:22:06   which is the entire purchase price of the DTK.

00:22:09   So they're basically giving us 100% refund

00:22:11   on having used it, and we can use it

00:22:14   on any Apple product through the end of the year.

00:22:17   So that's fantastic.

00:22:18   That is like, again, what I said last week,

00:22:21   I still stick with, of like,

00:22:23   modern Apple is usually pretty stingy

00:22:27   about any kind of hardware discounting

00:22:29   or giving away free hardware.

00:22:30   They almost never do it.

00:22:31   And so, like, when they said, you know,

00:22:34   you can buy this DTK for $500 through this

00:22:37   kind of invite only or application-based program,

00:22:39   I figured they're not gonna give us anything for these.

00:22:42   So to have even offered us the $200 last time,

00:22:46   I thought it was weird how many weird limitations

00:22:48   there were on it, but it was still more than the zero

00:22:51   I thought we'd get, and to have those limitations

00:22:54   be largely lifted and to have the amount

00:22:56   also be raised to $500, that's really nice.

00:23:00   That this was, this is the kind of thing that like,

00:23:03   this is gonna cost them almost nothing,

00:23:07   relative to like the other, like,

00:23:09   the difference between this for such a small-volume program

00:23:11   is gonna cost Apple like maybe 90 seconds of profit

00:23:14   or something, it's gonna cost them like nothing

00:23:16   in the grand scheme of things.

00:23:17   But this is such a nice gesture, and Apple does

00:23:22   have this weird habit recently of really

00:23:25   reading the room wrong.

00:23:27   Like that initial offer they did last week

00:23:29   was really like reading the room wrong.

00:23:31   I don't know why anyone at Apple thought

00:23:34   that would go over well.

00:23:35   When they put their foot in their mouth like that,

00:23:38   it's nice to see them sometimes remove it again

00:23:40   and resolve the problem and say, all right,

00:23:43   that wasn't very good, here's something better.

00:23:45   And that's what they've done here,

00:23:46   and it's a nice thing, it's a nice gesture.

00:23:50   They didn't have to do it, but I'm very glad they did.

00:23:53   - This move is like the least Apple-like thing

00:23:56   I can recall them doing in recent history

00:23:58   just because it's so low stakes.

00:24:00   Like the thing that we're talking about here

00:24:02   is a program that only affects a limited number,

00:24:05   just a low number of developers,

00:24:06   let alone a limited number of customers.

00:24:07   It's a fraction of a fraction.

00:24:09   - Like how many of these do you think are out there?

00:24:10   Like how many people do you think actually got DTKs?

00:24:13   - I mean, many more than got the Intel one for sure,

00:24:15   'cause it was cheaper and there are just

00:24:16   so many more developers, but nothing compared

00:24:18   to like their actual customer base,

00:24:20   and it's probably not even like, you know,

00:24:23   it's probably only a single digit percent

00:24:25   of their developers, 'cause they have so many developers,

00:24:27   and most of them are not Mac developers.

00:24:29   - What do you think it is?

00:24:30   Maybe like 50,000?

00:24:32   - Yeah, but the real thing is like they had a program,

00:24:37   and nowhere in that program did it say,

00:24:41   oh, and when you send these back,

00:24:42   we're gonna give you a treat.

00:24:43   Now, we talked about that because that's what they did

00:24:47   with the Intel thing, but that was like 15 years ago.

00:24:51   Like how many people, of the people who got this DTK,

00:24:54   how many of them were Mac developers 15 years ago,

00:24:57   or whenever the hell the Intel thing was?

00:24:59   - It's a very different environment.

00:25:00   - There was no reason that anybody

00:25:03   should have expected anything,

00:25:05   and then Apple decided to give us something,

00:25:07   albeit slightly weird, and you know,

00:25:10   I feel like of all the circles that we travel in,

00:25:13   the old school Mac developer circle is one of the ones

00:25:16   that we are the most deeply entrenched in.

00:25:19   We know a lot of old school Mac developers, right?

00:25:21   That's our circle of people, and I did not see

00:25:25   like an incredible outpouring of anger.

00:25:27   Like we see so much more anger of like everyday apps

00:25:30   or stuff and all sorts of other things

00:25:31   where people are just genuinely pissed and angry.

00:25:34   There was some discussion of this,

00:25:35   but it was discussion in the context of

00:25:37   they did a nice thing, eh, it could have been nicer.

00:25:40   Like you said, Mark, like oh, maybe reading the room

00:25:41   a little bit wrong or whatever,

00:25:42   but there was also the discussion of like,

00:25:43   well, they could have just done nothing

00:25:44   and solved this problem too,

00:25:45   'cause they didn't promise us anything,

00:25:47   and it's just like of all the things to immediately come in

00:25:52   and say, oh no, nevermind, we're totally,

00:25:54   we're gonna double it, and you have a longer time.

00:25:56   It's like, A, totally un-Apple-like,

00:25:58   'cause they almost never react that quickly

00:26:00   to something so low stakes, and B,

00:26:03   the fact that it is un-Apple-like

00:26:05   is a condemnation of modern Apple,

00:26:06   of what Apple-like has come to mean

00:26:08   in terms of developer relations,

00:26:09   because this is exactly what they should do.

00:26:10   You should, you know, if you make a fumble like this,

00:26:13   just quickly correct it, it's no big deal,

00:26:15   and the fact that I was so shocked by it made me think,

00:26:19   you shouldn't be shocked by a company

00:26:20   essentially having good customer support

00:26:21   or good developer relations.

00:26:22   Like this is basic table stakes,

00:26:25   good developer relations, right?

00:26:27   And the other thing I thought was like,

00:26:29   boy, inside Apple, I'm sure there is at least one person

00:26:32   somewhere saying, see, I told you we should've just given

00:26:35   them the DDK for free and asked for it back for free

00:26:37   and paid for shipping, we wouldn't have any

00:26:39   of these problems.

00:26:40   Think of how much more simple that would be.

00:26:41   Hey, if you want a DDK, sign up here, we'll send it to you,

00:26:44   and then later we'll send you a prepaid thing

00:26:46   to send it back.

00:26:47   So think of how simple that arrangement is.

00:26:49   $0, it gets people to develop for your platform,

00:26:52   no one is angry about it.

00:26:54   This, instead they did this, give us $500

00:26:57   with this vague potential expectation

00:26:59   if you're a crusty old Mac user

00:27:00   that we might give you something back,

00:27:02   and then we'll give you something back,

00:27:03   but not in a satisfying way, but then whoops,

00:27:04   we'll give you more back.

00:27:06   It's like, this is not Apple developer relations

00:27:12   finest moment, and it was like, like I said,

00:27:15   it was a depressing revelation to think that

00:27:17   what you would expect from good developer relations,

00:27:20   essentially like, hey, we want, you know,

00:27:22   if you're inside Apple, you're like, we want people

00:27:24   to develop for our platform, we want people

00:27:26   to port to the M1, how much can we afford to spend

00:27:29   to make that happen?

00:27:30   And someone's like, well, we gotta charge them

00:27:32   for this Mac Mini with an iPad inside it, don't we?

00:27:34   No, you don't actually, I mean, they did it

00:27:36   with the Apple TV where you got it for a dollar

00:27:38   and you got to keep it afterwards,

00:27:39   you didn't even have to send it back, like.

00:27:40   - Yep.

00:27:41   - Anyway, this is fine, Apple did the right thing,

00:27:45   I'm all happy about it, I'm especially happy

00:27:47   because I have the full year, so now I can just let

00:27:49   that $500 sit there until like in a panic in December

00:27:51   I buy something, right?

00:27:53   I don't have to buy a Mac Mini or a MacBook Air,

00:27:57   I can wait out the rest of the year where presumably

00:27:59   there will be at least one or two more ARM-based Macs

00:28:03   to come out during the year and then I can put this money

00:28:05   towards one of those, so I'm very happy.

00:28:07   - And it doesn't even have to be a Mac,

00:28:09   I think it's just gonna be like an Apple Store credit.

00:28:11   It says any Apple product, so maybe it wouldn't work

00:28:14   on like, you know, a pair of B&O headphones

00:28:16   or something like that, but like, it's probably gonna work

00:28:18   on a lot of stuff that we're gonna be buying this year.

00:28:20   - This would pay for like the Apple Care on my monitor

00:28:22   or something. - Yes it would.

00:28:23   (laughing)

00:28:25   - Someone asked about that, did I get Apple Care

00:28:28   on my stuff, I think I got Apple Care

00:28:29   on all my expensive stuff. - You did.

00:28:31   - Maybe I just blocked it out, but like,

00:28:32   I think that Apple Care was not cheap.

00:28:34   - It was $500, yeah, I'm very familiar with those.

00:28:38   All right. (laughing)

00:28:41   (upbeat music)

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00:30:24   - iOS 14.5 Watch and Lock.

00:30:30   We've been discussing kind of the implementation details

00:30:33   as best we can figure out for that.

00:30:35   And apparently it wants to see a masked face first

00:30:40   before it offers or investigates the option

00:30:43   of using the watch for unlocking.

00:30:45   And one of you, probably John,

00:30:47   wrote any masked face, question mark?

00:30:50   - We talked about this last time.

00:30:51   Why do you need to see a face first?

00:30:52   If you're gonna let me unlock because of the watch,

00:30:55   just let me unlock because of the watch.

00:30:56   And a lot of people were discussing this on Twitter

00:30:59   and sending feedback.

00:30:59   They're like, oh, well, it wants to see

00:31:00   the top half of your face.

00:31:02   It does a partial face match because that's more secure

00:31:04   than not looking at your face at all,

00:31:06   which makes some kind of sense,

00:31:08   but something in my mind was just itching in me.

00:31:11   - I don't know much about machine learning,

00:31:13   but it seems to me that a lot of the machine learning models

00:31:15   if they're trained on your actual face,

00:31:16   the whole reason they don't unlock for your whole face

00:31:19   is that they're just,

00:31:20   machine learning is not where someone just writes a program

00:31:23   to recognize a face.

00:31:24   It's different than that.

00:31:25   If you could write the program,

00:31:26   you wouldn't need machine learning.

00:31:27   The whole point is it's really hard to write that program

00:31:29   so you sort of let the program write itself by teaching it,

00:31:32   by showing the face, and it's complicated.

00:31:34   I don't understand, oh, that's more or less how it works.

00:31:36   What it means is what you end up with,

00:31:37   that model that recognizes faces,

00:31:40   what you end up with is not a sort of a program

00:31:43   that a human could look at and understand,

00:31:45   because if it could,

00:31:45   they would've just written it in the first place, right?

00:31:48   And so just because we conceptually can think of the idea

00:31:52   of like, oh, I can recognize your whole face,

00:31:54   and I could probably recognize the top of your face,

00:31:56   but we're human beings.

00:31:57   Just because you have a machine learning model

00:32:00   that can recognize the whole face,

00:32:02   who's to say it can make heads or tails

00:32:03   of half your face with a mask on it?

00:32:05   As far as it's concerned, it's like no match.

00:32:07   Now, I don't know.

00:32:08   I don't know if that's the case,

00:32:09   but either way, that was my thought when I was suspicious

00:32:12   that it's not doing a partial face match,

00:32:16   and so why look at the face at all?

00:32:18   And I have at least one report from someone

00:32:20   who has used the iOS 14.5 beta to say that you can take,

00:32:25   you can be wearing your watch and take your phone

00:32:29   and show your phone anyone's masked face,

00:32:32   your wife's masked face, your child's masked face,

00:32:34   just show anyone's masked face,

00:32:36   and then your watch will unlock your thing afterwards.

00:32:39   So it doesn't even need to be your masked face.

00:32:41   Now, granted, this experiment was with people

00:32:43   related to the person, so maybe the top of their faces

00:32:45   looks enough like theirs that it was able to unlock,

00:32:47   but the fact that it worked on a wife and a child

00:32:50   makes me think that maybe it's not actually

00:32:52   doing a partial face match, or if it is,

00:32:54   all it cares about is that it's a human face

00:32:56   with the same number of eyes as you or something.

00:32:59   So I still don't quite know how this book works,

00:33:02   and I still think it's weird

00:33:03   that it wants to see anything first.

00:33:05   And by the way, I don't know if we mentioned this last time,

00:33:07   but it does buzz your watch when it unlocks

00:33:09   and gives you the option to immediately relock it, right?

00:33:11   So it's trying to do the right thing.

00:33:12   No one's gonna secretly unlock your phone

00:33:13   without you knowing, 'cause if you have the watch

00:33:15   on your wrist and it just unlocked it,

00:33:16   it will buzz you and then you'll look at it and say,

00:33:18   "Hey, someone just unlocked your phone,"

00:33:19   and you can just smack it and say,

00:33:20   "Lock it," because it wasn't me.

00:33:22   Anyway, and it's opt-in, so this is not going to happen

00:33:25   to you unless you turn this feature on.

00:33:27   But I'm interested to see, for those of us

00:33:30   who have iPhones and watches, which is, I guess, YouTube,

00:33:33   when the 14.5 comes out for real,

00:33:36   setting aside whatever the betas do,

00:33:38   does it need to see a face, and does it take any face?

00:33:41   Or does it require your face?

00:33:42   - All right, moving on, Mike Vossler has some information

00:33:46   with regard to listing your trash.

00:33:49   Can you tell me about that, Jon?

00:33:50   - Yeah, last week I was surprised

00:33:52   that Marco couldn't even just list the contents

00:33:54   of his .trash directory and his home directory.

00:33:57   And I had long since forgotten that it has been my habit

00:33:59   ever since whatever OS this was introduced in

00:34:03   to give the terminal application full disk access,

00:34:05   because I find it maddening when I'm asked for permission

00:34:08   to do stuff from the command line.

00:34:09   So I always just give terminal full disk access,

00:34:12   and a lot of people reported that if you do give terminal

00:34:14   full disk access, then you can go into .trash just fine.

00:34:18   Still, yet, some people have said,

00:34:20   "I have terminal with full disk access,"

00:34:22   but the particular problem Marco was talking about,

00:34:24   I had something like that too, where there was some sort of,

00:34:27   you know, something in my .trash directory

00:34:29   that was somehow protected by system integrity protection,

00:34:32   I needed to reboot in recovery mode to remove it.

00:34:34   So both of those are failure modes that might happen.

00:34:36   But if you're just wondering why terminal

00:34:38   is not letting you see things that normally it used to,

00:34:41   and you don't mind opening up a, you know,

00:34:43   what we now call a giant security hole,

00:34:45   but what we used to just call the way Unix works,

00:34:48   give the terminal application full disk access,

00:34:51   and then when you're in terminal, it won't complain.

00:34:53   I mean, you're still subject to Unix permissions, obviously.

00:34:56   That's so weird when you say full disk access.

00:34:59   What it means is go back to just honoring

00:35:01   Unix file system permissions.

00:35:03   So you can't actually see everything, right?

00:35:06   But we call this full disk access,

00:35:09   and the opposite of that is, oh, you can't see anything

00:35:11   unless you explicitly ask permission for it,

00:35:13   and that is a little bit annoying.

00:35:15   - By the way, for some actual follow-up on this topic

00:35:17   on whether it solved my issue, nope, sure didn't.

00:35:20   - Yeah, I think there's the one where you actually

00:35:22   have to go into recovery and delete the thing,

00:35:24   and you probably have that one.

00:35:25   - Yeah, I didn't attempt that yet, because I don't want to.

00:35:29   I'm like, to me, having my stupid X11 alias

00:35:33   stuck in my trash forever is just kind of this reminder,

00:35:37   like I have to get rid of this installation in Mac OS.

00:35:40   I don't, I just have to get rid of this.

00:35:43   That is not the real problem.

00:35:45   The real problem is not my X11 alias.

00:35:46   The real problem is that this installation is broken,

00:35:48   and I have to get rid of it.

00:35:50   - You're just making me want to dive in there

00:35:51   and nurse it back to health.

00:35:52   Just give feed it chicken soup and clean out

00:35:55   all of its old launch agents

00:35:57   and find all your old corrupt fonts

00:35:59   and just really just shine it up.

00:36:01   It's like those car detailing videos

00:36:03   where they find the old car in the barn

00:36:04   that hasn't been out in 20 years,

00:36:05   and then by the end of the thing, it's all shiny.

00:36:07   That's what I want to do to your Mac OS.

00:36:09   - Excellent, and then this next item in follow-up,

00:36:13   I haven't a clue what is happening here.

00:36:16   So John, tell me about SSD traffic.

00:36:19   - Last week, there was an Ask ATP question

00:36:22   where someone was saying, "Hey, if I get the M1

00:36:24   "with eight gigs of RAM, am I going to shorten

00:36:26   "the life of my SSD just from swap file usage?"

00:36:30   - Yes.

00:36:31   - And my general answer to that was like,

00:36:33   "Don't worry about it.

00:36:34   "It'll probably be fine.

00:36:34   "SSDs are fairly sturdy, and you're not going

00:36:39   "to be swapping that much, and if you are,

00:36:40   "you're going to have other problems that you notice

00:36:42   "way before you wear out your SSD," so on and so forth.

00:36:45   And there was some thread on Twitter

00:36:47   where people were discussing this and saying,

00:36:49   "Well, I'm looking at my M1 Mac,

00:36:52   "and I looked at the total data written to the SSD

00:36:56   "over some period of time, and I was shocked

00:36:58   "at how much it was."

00:37:00   And so the tweet was, this is actually on a MacBook Air

00:37:06   with an M1 and 16 gigs of RAM,

00:37:08   so it's not even an eight gig model.

00:37:09   And this person was shocked.

00:37:11   Two months in, the data written to the SSD

00:37:15   was 13.4 terabytes.

00:37:17   It was like 15.5 terabytes read,

00:37:20   13.4 terabytes written.

00:37:23   And everyone in the thread was like,

00:37:24   "Oh, that seems like a lot, right?

00:37:26   "Like, you've only had it for two months.

00:37:28   "Like, boy, at that rate of IO,

00:37:29   "are you gonna wear out this SSD?"

00:37:32   And so I was curious.

00:37:33   I decided to look at my work laptop,

00:37:35   which is an Intel machine, but it also has 16 gigs of RAM,

00:37:38   and I had it for a really long time,

00:37:39   so I figured it would even out.

00:37:41   And my work machine is thrashed by corporate malware, right?

00:37:46   It's got SOPOS antivirus that's constantly scanning things.

00:37:48   It's constantly doing an inventory.

00:37:50   It's constantly searching my hard drive

00:37:51   for personally identifiable information

00:37:53   and running reports on it, right?

00:37:55   Like, everything you can imagine

00:37:56   is just incredibly abused by that.

00:37:58   I can tell you that the fans run high a lot of the time.

00:38:02   A lot of the time, it is swamped by CPU.

00:38:04   And like I said, disk IO, you know,

00:38:06   when it's just grinding over your whole disk,

00:38:07   looking for stuff, not to mention running, like,

00:38:10   you know, the Microsoft OneDrive and Dropbox

00:38:14   and plus, you know, running large VMs on the thing

00:38:17   and pushing it into swap.

00:38:18   And you know, so I really, this is,

00:38:19   I feel like this is a heavily used laptop

00:38:21   that is, you know, slowly wilting under the load

00:38:24   that I put it in on top of all the corporate malware.

00:38:27   So I'm like, this is gonna be a good test

00:38:29   to see what, you know, what the IO is.

00:38:31   And by the way, the way we're getting these numbers,

00:38:34   both the Twitter thread and this is using smart utilities.

00:38:38   I forget what smart stands for.

00:38:39   It's probably an acronym for like, anyway,

00:38:41   it's the tools that like measure hard drive health

00:38:44   or whatever.

00:38:45   So we'll put a link in the show notes too.

00:38:47   I just searched for it on Google

00:38:48   and I found this smartmontools.org website

00:38:51   that downloaded the command.

00:38:52   It's called smart control or smart control.

00:38:56   And it's just, you know, run smart control dash dash all

00:38:59   slash dev slash disk zero for, you know,

00:39:01   built-in SSD probably.

00:39:03   And the number I got was 246 terabytes written

00:39:08   on my internal SSD.

00:39:11   And that is over the course of the entire life

00:39:13   of the 2017 MacBook Pro.

00:39:15   So I did some math to figure out how many gigs per day

00:39:18   of writes.

00:39:18   I never really care about the reads.

00:39:19   We're just worried about writes for like wearing out the SSD.

00:39:22   How many gigs per day is that?

00:39:23   The shocking one that was in the Twitter thread

00:39:25   that was only two months old on the M1 Mac

00:39:27   was 223 gigs written per day.

00:39:30   And my, you know, four-year-old Intel MacBook Pro

00:39:34   was 197 gigs written per day.

00:39:37   And I'm shocked that the two numbers

00:39:38   are that close to each other

00:39:39   because surely the usage patterns are different.

00:39:42   Like I don't think this person has sofas antivirus scaling,

00:39:44   scanning every single file on their hard drive

00:39:46   every single day.

00:39:48   But yeah, they're both in the same ballpark,

00:39:50   200-ish gigs per day written.

00:39:52   There's some other stats that are printed out

00:39:54   by this thing that I don't understand, but I can surmise.

00:39:56   One of them is available spare.

00:39:58   Remember we talked about over provisioning,

00:40:00   how much extra storage is in there

00:40:03   just in case you wear out some part of the SSD,

00:40:05   you can use the extra stuff that it keeps in reserve.

00:40:08   My available spare is at 100%.

00:40:11   I think that means it's all available.

00:40:12   I don't know.

00:40:13   There's a bunch of other fun stats in here

00:40:16   if you wanna take a look at what your laptop is doing,

00:40:18   but I can tell you that it never crossed my mind

00:40:20   to worry about wearing out my SSD on this laptop.

00:40:23   I did worry that it was gonna overheat and explode

00:40:25   because the fans are running high all the time,

00:40:28   but 200 gigs per day of writes

00:40:31   seems like a not unreasonable thing

00:40:34   for a laptop to be writing to its SSD

00:40:37   if it's used in a reasonable amount,

00:40:39   whether it's an M1 Mac or an Intel Mac for many years ago.

00:40:43   - So now, hold on.

00:40:44   So you are, how are you getting how many days

00:40:47   to divide by, by power on hours?

00:40:49   - No, I'm getting that by the date I know

00:40:51   I got the laptop from work.

00:40:53   It was new, brand new laptop, fresh out of the box,

00:40:56   and then I'm gonna start counting from there.

00:40:58   And obviously I don't use it on weekends for the most part

00:41:00   'cause it's my work laptop,

00:41:01   but this laptop probably has more,

00:41:05   I didn't run this on my Mac Pro,

00:41:06   but this laptop is definitely the hardest used

00:41:09   piece of hardware that's in my house right now.

00:41:11   - Okay, 'cause I ask because I have 1,295 power on hours

00:41:15   and 54 terabytes written, and so computing that out,

00:41:20   if you treat it as powered on hours,

00:41:24   that's 1,001 gigabytes a day.

00:41:27   But again, that's power on hours,

00:41:29   so it's not exactly the same as what you're computing.

00:41:33   But that's considerably more than what you're talking about.

00:41:35   - Yeah, I mean, it really depends on what you're doing.

00:41:37   Like I said last time, you can wear out an SSD

00:41:39   if you're doing something that's just constantly doing

00:41:42   a huge amount of I/O,

00:41:43   but most normal loads don't do that, right?

00:41:46   So it really depends on the specific things

00:41:49   that you're doing.

00:41:50   The question was about whether swap would do it,

00:41:52   and I think if you're swapping that much,

00:41:53   you're gonna be suffering in so many other ways.

00:41:56   Your concern is not gonna be SSD.

00:41:57   Some other interesting stats here

00:41:59   that make me wonder what it's actually showing,

00:42:01   power cycles.

00:42:03   I'm assuming that means maybe the OS or the hardware

00:42:08   takes power away from the SSD when it doesn't need

00:42:10   to be there or something,

00:42:11   because my power cycles number is 26,000,

00:42:13   and I know I did not turn this computer on and off

00:42:15   to 26,000 times, right?

00:42:18   So that must mean something else.

00:42:20   Unsafe shutdowns, I think we all know what that means, 160.

00:42:24   I'm like, yeah, that seems about right.

00:42:26   It's because this machine did have a tendency

00:42:29   to kernel panic for at least the first year or two

00:42:30   of its life, it's settled down a little bit now.

00:42:34   Media and data integrity errors, zero, no errors.

00:42:38   - Oh, interesting.

00:42:39   So I recomputed your laptop as per what's in the show notes,

00:42:44   and I computed it the same way that mine was computed,

00:42:47   and yours is actually 847.2 gigabytes a day,

00:42:50   and I'm still sitting at 1,001.

00:42:52   I have no idea how.

00:42:53   - Yeah, I feel like those are shockingly

00:42:55   in a similar ballparks, right?

00:42:58   For two machines that are used

00:42:59   for entirely different purposes,

00:43:00   running entirely different software,

00:43:02   it's amazing how these are not double each other

00:43:06   or have a huge range,

00:43:07   'cause I have no idea how you use your computer,

00:43:09   but it can't be like I use my work laptop,

00:43:12   which does such weird things.

00:43:14   I'm running database servers on my work laptop,

00:43:19   and I feel like it almost doesn't matter

00:43:21   unless you're doing something that you know

00:43:23   is intentionally, not abusive,

00:43:24   but intentionally extremely heavy.

00:43:27   Like say you're constantly recording 8K video

00:43:30   to the drive 24 hours a day from a security camera.

00:43:32   That's the type of thing where you'd expect

00:43:34   to see a 10X difference or whatever,

00:43:35   but if you just use your laptop like a human,

00:43:38   it seems like the numbers sort of regress to a mean here,

00:43:41   with our three data points,

00:43:42   because Marco hasn't downloaded this thing and tried it yet.

00:43:45   - No.

00:43:46   - And all his computers are so new that it's like,

00:43:48   (laughing)

00:43:49   power on hour seven.

00:43:51   - Three.

00:43:52   - Soon I'll be leaving Marco's house.

00:43:54   You just see the number of battery cycles

00:43:56   whenever I sell a laptop, it's embarrassingly low.

00:43:59   - Yeah, Marco has charged his battery 10 times.

00:44:03   Looking at our two readouts, your controller busy time

00:44:06   is 21,799, would you like to guess what mine is?

00:44:11   - I don't even, what's the units for that?

00:44:12   Is that seconds, is that minutes?

00:44:13   What is that? - No idea.

00:44:14   I have no idea.

00:44:16   - But remember, this is a 2017 laptop, it's old.

00:44:18   - Sure, well, but would you like to guess what mine

00:44:22   controller busy time is?

00:44:23   - Well, how old is your computer?

00:44:25   - What, a year-ish, something like that,

00:44:27   a little over a year?

00:44:28   It's zero.

00:44:29   - Yeah, well, I don't know what that number means,

00:44:32   but my computer is stressed.

00:44:35   It should move to the beach.

00:44:38   - Yeah, that's what it needs to do, yeah, that's it.

00:44:40   You know, you also have 60 error information log entries

00:44:43   and I have zero.

00:44:44   - Yeah, but I have no data integrity error,

00:44:46   so I'm happy about that.

00:44:47   - By the way, while we're doing things

00:44:50   that are gonna generate tons of email over the next week,

00:44:52   thanks a lot, guys, I'll add to the pile.

00:44:55   I would like recommendations from listeners,

00:45:00   not an overwhelming number of them, maybe,

00:45:02   but I would like recommendations from--

00:45:03   - Listeners can't control that, they don't know

00:45:05   what other people are doing.

00:45:06   There's no global knowledge.

00:45:07   - Organize amongst yourselves to submit one copy

00:45:11   of each thing.

00:45:11   - Oh, God.

00:45:12   - The problem I need to solve here is every time

00:45:15   there's a new Mac OS update or something,

00:45:19   I have to set up a new computer or the OS changes

00:45:23   some policy or PHP gets updated or stuff like that,

00:45:28   it always breaks my local web development stuff.

00:45:31   Like what I want to do is run PHP, Nginx

00:45:35   or any other web server, but hopefully Nginx

00:45:38   with PHP and MySQL locally on my Mac.

00:45:43   I have done this for over a decade just by usually

00:45:47   either using the built-in stuff, like back when it was

00:45:50   present and reasonably good, which it mostly still is,

00:45:53   but I think they're phasing that out,

00:45:54   or I would use Homebrew or similar package managing

00:45:59   kind of stuff to install a different version

00:46:02   or a newer version of something like PHP

00:46:05   and have that be automated in some big script.

00:46:07   And every six months, whatever process I did before breaks,

00:46:12   and whatever installation I had before either can't

00:46:15   be carried into the new OS or some component of it breaks.

00:46:19   This is just the world of package management.

00:46:21   And trying to run a package manager on Mac OS

00:46:26   seems like a very hostile environment to try to operate in.

00:46:29   I think it seems like the OS is constantly changing

00:46:31   and breaking stuff like that in ways that Homebrew

00:46:34   tries its best to get around, but it often doesn't succeed.

00:46:37   And so I'm kind of at my wits end here,

00:46:41   and what I would ideally like, I don't even know

00:46:43   if this necessarily is possible with what we have

00:46:47   so far today, what I would ideally like is a Linux VM

00:46:52   that I could run, that could just be like a file

00:46:56   or a folder on my computer that is mounted into a Linux VM.

00:47:00   And that folder, I could still edit all my code,

00:47:03   like in TextMate, all my PHP copies of everything.

00:47:05   That could all still be in a regular Mac editing app,

00:47:09   so mounted natively in the Mac file system.

00:47:11   But I want just a Linux VM that I can set up

00:47:14   that can actually execute this code.

00:47:17   - This is amazing.

00:47:18   - You should listen to some tech podcasts

00:47:19   where they talk about things like Docker,

00:47:21   which we've talked about on the show many, many times.

00:47:23   - You realize you just invented Docker.

00:47:25   - Well, so, right, so I've never used Docker.

00:47:28   Is Docker the solution to this?

00:47:29   And second question, does it work on M1 Macs yet?

00:47:33   Now, here's the thing, other qualifications.

00:47:35   So number one, it has to work on Apple Silicon,

00:47:37   which I know most of the virtualization stuff doesn't yet.

00:47:40   Number two, I don't care how fast it is.

00:47:44   It doesn't need to be fast.

00:47:45   In fact, if it's slow, that's actually kind of a feature,

00:47:48   because then I'll be forced to optimize my web code

00:47:51   if anything is noticeably slow, but it won't be.

00:47:53   I mean, PHP and MySQL, even if it was doing

00:47:57   full x86 machine emulation on the M1,

00:48:02   I would still not notice the slowness.

00:48:04   So performance does not matter at all.

00:48:06   What does matter is it has to work on M1.

00:48:08   It can't have any kernel extensions.

00:48:10   It can't have the old virtualization methods

00:48:12   where you'd install kexts all over the place.

00:48:14   None of that, if that even still works,

00:48:16   I don't think it does.

00:48:17   So I just want a container that I can keep

00:48:22   independent of what the OS does,

00:48:25   and I don't care how much overhead it takes

00:48:27   to execute the contents of that container.

00:48:29   So it can be very, very slow.

00:48:30   It can be full emulation of x86 if it needs to be.

00:48:33   It can be ARM probably, but ideally it would be x86,

00:48:36   just 'cause that's what I'm running on the servers,

00:48:37   and it would be nice to match everything exactly,

00:48:40   to just be able to install my server Ubuntu distribution

00:48:43   with my server install script here locally.

00:48:46   So that's ideally what I want.

00:48:48   I'm interested to know what is the best solution to this

00:48:51   that actually works on M1 Macs in any possible way.

00:48:56   - So I mean, you have three main options here.

00:48:58   One, I know you said you didn't like this,

00:49:00   but homebrew has been updated for the M1 Macs,

00:49:02   and so if you still wanna go that route,

00:49:05   you actually have that option available to you.

00:49:07   Two, you got plain old VMs, lots of options for them,

00:49:10   and as you noted, the ones that you installed--

00:49:12   - Do I have lots of options for them?

00:49:14   - I mean, you're going to have lots of options.

00:49:17   People are going to-- - Oh yeah, right,

00:49:18   I'm going to, I don't right now.

00:49:20   - But it could be like by next week.

00:49:22   Things are happening fast here, right?

00:49:24   But I'm saying don't set that aside,

00:49:25   because traditional plain old VMs,

00:49:27   whether you use VMware, commercial product,

00:49:29   or VirtualBox or whatever, you could literally run

00:49:32   the same version of Linux that your servers run,

00:49:34   and yes, most of them have some way for you

00:49:36   to essentially mount through some folder on your Mac

00:49:38   so you can use all your native Mac tools.

00:49:40   They all do that.

00:49:41   And the good thing is on Big Sur

00:49:43   with the virtualization framework,

00:49:44   they don't need Kext anymore,

00:49:45   because the OS supports virtualization itself.

00:49:48   So I bet the people at VMware,

00:49:49   I mean, I haven't talked to them,

00:49:50   but I bet they're excited, because they're like,

00:49:52   oh, thank God, we don't have to do this part.

00:49:54   The whole part of our application that we had to write

00:49:56   that was a pain in the butt to maintain,

00:49:57   now we don't have to use it anymore.

00:49:59   Apple gives us one, and we can essentially ship you an app

00:50:01   that just runs without asking for weird permissions

00:50:04   to install a Kext or whatever.

00:50:06   Like, that's great for them.

00:50:07   Now, this is assuming Apple's virtualization framework

00:50:09   actually works well, and I'm sure the people

00:50:11   who worked in that part of VMware say ours was better

00:50:14   and had better features, but what I'm saying to you

00:50:16   is that don't be afraid of virtualization,

00:50:17   because all the things that we complain about on Big Sur

00:50:21   and locking stuff down or whatever,

00:50:22   it makes things like virtualization less scary,

00:50:26   because now they're not allowed to do that dangerous stuff,

00:50:29   and they can't, and the OS supports it natively.

00:50:31   So look into virtualization,

00:50:33   whoever ends up supporting that the best.

00:50:35   And then finally, there's Docker,

00:50:36   which is probably, of all those solutions,

00:50:39   going to be the weirdest to you,

00:50:41   and I also don't know whether it's entirely supported

00:50:43   in M1 Macs yet, but it will be inevitably.

00:50:46   - It looks like it's in tech preview mode right now.

00:50:48   - Yeah, and also, I believe it will be able

00:50:51   to do x86 stuff for you, which is what you want.

00:50:53   So those three options should cover all of the possibilities,

00:50:57   and I think you should try all three of them when you can.

00:51:01   So you can try Homebrew now

00:51:02   and get angry at it all over again.

00:51:03   - Yeah, I will.

00:51:04   - And then as soon as VMware or something like that is out,

00:51:08   try that, and then try Docker.

00:51:10   Docker is free for you to just run locally.

00:51:12   And my experience with the Mac version of Docker

00:51:13   has actually been pretty good, obviously not on the M1,

00:51:15   but the Mac version of Docker,

00:51:18   it's not super duper Mac-like,

00:51:20   but it's way more Mac-like than you would think

00:51:22   something like Docker would be.

00:51:24   You probably do have to learn a little bit about Docker,

00:51:27   and you're not gonna like what you learn

00:51:28   'cause it's weird, but learn a little bit about Docker

00:51:31   to do the thing that you want,

00:51:32   where you wanna sort of mount through the directory

00:51:33   and have it visible and all that stuff.

00:51:34   You'll have to mess with that in some ways

00:51:36   that are gonna be a little bit scary

00:51:38   and more complicated to you than,

00:51:39   VMware is like you can practically drag a folder over

00:51:42   and make a shared thing, and it's really easy,

00:51:44   you know, like VMware, right?

00:51:45   But of those three options,

00:51:47   surely one of them will work for you

00:51:49   better than your current setup.

00:51:50   And I guess the fourth option is what I did,

00:51:52   which is you compile everything from source

00:51:53   and just deal with it, but it seems like you're-

00:51:55   - Oh, I'm not doing that, no.

00:51:56   - It's the best though, no.

00:51:58   - The best for what, in what way is it the best?

00:52:01   It's the worst.

00:52:02   - It's the best in that you have, you should love it.

00:52:04   It's the Marco solution that you have total control.

00:52:06   You're such a control freak

00:52:07   about so many parts of your tech life, but not this one.

00:52:09   - Well, because this is an environment that like,

00:52:13   this is to me a tool.

00:52:14   Like I don't want to build like my text editor from source.

00:52:18   I just want this to be a package that I download

00:52:20   as like a complete polished thing that is easy,

00:52:23   because this is an area of my toolkit

00:52:24   that I don't wanna become a power user or nerd about.

00:52:27   This is something that I currently am forced

00:52:29   to be a power user or nerd in trying to keep

00:52:31   all the native, you know, homebrew kind of stuff

00:52:34   working through our installations.

00:52:36   And I just, to me, like any time I spend maintaining that

00:52:41   is a waste of my time.

00:52:42   Like any time I spend on that is like,

00:52:44   I'm not working on my app, I'm not doing anything I like,

00:52:46   I'm not doing something productive,

00:52:47   like customers won't see or care about any of this.

00:52:49   Like that to me is like burned time.

00:52:52   And so that's exactly the kind of context where I would pay.

00:52:56   If like, you know, VMware worked perfectly

00:52:59   the way I want to and was out today and was $300,

00:53:01   I would buy it.

00:53:02   They'd be like, great, I can throw money at this problem

00:53:04   and get all this time back to not have to deal with this.

00:53:08   - I think it might already be out.

00:53:09   I might just be thinking of the big Sur update

00:53:11   and not the M1 update.

00:53:12   But it's so much like your other situations

00:53:14   in that when it breaks you get frustrated

00:53:15   if you don't know exactly what's going on

00:53:17   because it's using some third party thing.

00:53:19   And so let me just write my own library

00:53:20   to do this thing, right?

00:53:21   So that way I know the code from top to bottom.

00:53:24   Every time your homebrew stuff breaks or whatever

00:53:26   you're like, and like you don't control homebrew

00:53:28   and it's not your thing and it's big and it's complicated

00:53:31   and it's like, ugh.

00:53:32   So I can imagine you would derive some satisfaction

00:53:35   for like understanding how your local setup works

00:53:39   from top to bottom in the same way that you do with code

00:53:41   instead of dealing with, oh, well why did you use

00:53:43   a third party library that does that?

00:53:44   It does it for you and it's like,

00:53:45   but I don't want the whole third party library

00:53:47   and it's complicated and when it breaks

00:53:48   I don't understand why.

00:53:50   So I feel like that the compiling from source,

00:53:53   as ridiculous as it sounds to you,

00:53:55   actually does fit with some of your other tech habits

00:53:57   in the vein of I know exactly how it works

00:54:00   and it does just what I need it to do and only that

00:54:03   and when it breaks I understand and can fix it.

00:54:05   - Yeah, I'm still not doing it.

00:54:07   - I know, no one is, just me, but I enjoy it.

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00:56:08   - All right, moving on.

00:56:12   Oh God, we're gonna get so much email this week.

00:56:14   Tesla.

00:56:15   - Oh no.

00:56:16   - As if we didn't have enough email coming our way.

00:56:18   - Can you put this in here, Casey?

00:56:20   This is all you.

00:56:20   - Yeah, this is my fault.

00:56:22   Everyone has a reason for email apparently.

00:56:25   We had discussed, I think a couple of weeks ago,

00:56:27   how Marco has to periodically reboot half of his car

00:56:31   as he's hurtling down the road because that's totally safe.

00:56:35   And don't worry, Elon will fix it, I'm sure.

00:56:38   Well, apparently he is fixing it

00:56:39   because they've basically been forced

00:56:42   to do a recall for touchscreen failures.

00:56:44   And so NHTSA has all but compelled Tesla,

00:56:48   and I guess this is normal,

00:56:49   that NHTSA will basically say,

00:56:51   "Hey, we're going to make you do a recall

00:56:53   "if you don't voluntarily do it."

00:56:55   And then the car manufacturer, not just Tesla,

00:56:57   will fight it for a little while.

00:56:58   And then they're like, "No, really, this is gonna happen."

00:57:00   And the car manufacturer says, "No, no, no, no, no.

00:57:02   "We'll do it voluntarily, no need for a recall.

00:57:03   "It's cool, it's cool, it's cool, it's cool, it's cool."

00:57:05   So anyway, we will put a link in the show notes.

00:57:08   And from that link,

00:57:09   NHTSA, what is it?

00:57:11   The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration,

00:57:14   something like that?

00:57:15   Is that right? - Yeah.

00:57:15   - All right, go team.

00:57:17   The agency said touchscreen failures

00:57:18   posed significant safety issues,

00:57:20   including the loss of rear view or backup camera images,

00:57:22   exterior turn signal lighting,

00:57:24   we were wondering about that when we were discussing it,

00:57:26   and windshield defogging, I almost said defragging,

00:57:30   defogging and defrosting systems that--

00:57:31   - I think if you're just to defrag your windshield,

00:57:33   do you have other problems?

00:57:34   - That's a big worry.

00:57:36   That quote, "May decrease the driver's visibility

00:57:38   "in inclement weather."

00:57:39   Quote.

00:57:40   NHTSA said last month that, quote,

00:57:42   "During our review of the data,

00:57:43   "Tesla provided confirmation that all units

00:57:45   "will inevitably fail,

00:57:46   "given the memory device's finite storage capacity."

00:57:50   Quote, are you kidding me?

00:57:52   I guess they're just vomiting up like log files or something

00:57:56   until kingdom come and--

00:57:57   - No, the way I interpreted it was not about that,

00:58:00   it was actually about flash wear.

00:58:01   That's how I interpreted this.

00:58:03   - Ah, okay, okay, then maybe I'm wrong.

00:58:04   That's fair.

00:58:05   - Yeah, whoever wrote this,

00:58:06   NHTSA doesn't understand the tech involved,

00:58:07   but that's my understanding too,

00:58:08   that it is actually a case of wearing out flash memory.

00:58:12   - So it's actually topical for this week's show.

00:58:14   - Yeah, exactly, exactly.

00:58:16   - I mean, but who's gonna think when designing a car system

00:58:18   that the cars will be running for a long time?

00:58:20   - Yeah, I mean, why would you think that?

00:58:22   (laughing)

00:58:23   - Like such a Tesla move where they're just like,

00:58:27   we don't need to do things the car way,

00:58:28   let's just do things the fast and nimble way.

00:58:31   Why would we spend all this money

00:58:33   for this really enterprise grade

00:58:35   over-provisioned car industry flash module

00:58:37   that costs a bazillion dollars?

00:58:38   I can just buy a bunch of these on Amazon

00:58:40   and stick 'em in the cars

00:58:41   and oh, now they're all wearing out.

00:58:43   - Whoopsies.

00:58:44   - But we need to do all that logging

00:58:45   to find out why things are broken.

00:58:46   - Heyo!

00:58:47   Oh god, we're gonna get so many emails, but you're so right.

00:58:50   - Yeah, this is a super old story, isn't it?

00:58:52   I guess it's finally getting around

00:58:53   to recalling it or whatever,

00:58:55   but I remember reading about this particular problem

00:58:57   years ago.

00:58:58   - Yeah, it isn't on any of their recent cars.

00:59:00   I think the latest effect of cars

00:59:02   are probably from like three years ago, right?

00:59:04   It's not super recent, right?

00:59:06   - Well.

00:59:06   - Yeah, and it's the type of thing

00:59:07   that happens after over time, right?

00:59:09   So if it is happening on the current cars,

00:59:10   we wouldn't know it for years.

00:59:12   - That's true, yeah, that's true.

00:59:14   - Now, with all that said,

00:59:16   Michael Swindler wrote in to say,

00:59:18   "In my Model 3, I had to reboot while driving recently."

00:59:20   Why is this such a thing?

00:59:21   Why are people okay with this?

00:59:23   Oh my god.

00:59:24   It happened to be at night,

00:59:25   so I could see that the turn signal did still work,

00:59:28   just no sound.

00:59:29   Oh, that's reassuring.

00:59:30   I'm glad we had that. - So that's the Model 3,

00:59:31   which is a newer car, I'll say.

00:59:33   - Yeah, that's what I hoped was happening,

00:59:35   but yeah, I don't, uh.

00:59:38   It's still not a good thing

00:59:40   to have to reboot your car while driving it,

00:59:41   and also, it just shows,

00:59:44   anytime, we keep getting email from people who are like,

00:59:48   "You guys don't understand the new Model S.

00:59:50   "It's all about self-driving.

00:59:52   "They're going all in on full self-driving,

00:59:54   "so they don't need a steering wheel.

00:59:55   "They're just designing it so you don't need to drive it."

00:59:57   It's like, yeah, that's wonderful.

00:59:59   - Full self-driving's coming out in 2018, Marco.

01:00:02   - Yeah, right.

01:00:03   (laughing)

01:00:04   Yeah, like, the,

01:00:06   you don't buy a car or design a car

01:00:10   for promises of future software capabilities,

01:00:14   especially things that seem really hard

01:00:17   for anybody to actually achieve.

01:00:20   If you ship a car, and it turns out that in one year,

01:00:23   you have amazing full self-driving capabilities

01:00:25   somehow magically, and it turned out

01:00:27   that the steering wheels you put on the first,

01:00:29   on the car for that whole year were redundant,

01:00:32   oh well, you get some redundant steering wheels.

01:00:34   No big deal.

01:00:35   If you bet wrong, (laughing)

01:00:37   and you have, like, you design a car

01:00:40   for a software future that doesn't ship on time,

01:00:44   or never, maybe, makes it in the lifetime of that car,

01:00:47   and now you just have a badly designed car

01:00:49   that could get people killed,

01:00:51   I'd say that you've made the wrong bet,

01:00:53   and that's a bad design.

01:00:55   - Agreed.

01:00:55   - And also, I mean, I know we discussed this

01:00:57   a little bit tangentially, the whole split

01:00:59   between the car computer and the infotainment computer,

01:01:03   and whether they were merged or whatever,

01:01:05   but just in general, the idea that rebooting your car

01:01:08   while you're driving it is in any way a common thing,

01:01:11   even if it's just the non-driving computer,

01:01:14   does not make me particularly confident

01:01:16   about any kind of self-driving future,

01:01:17   which, by the way, I continued to see years ago episodes

01:01:21   super pessimistic that we will ever see anything like that

01:01:23   in our lifetime, but regardless,

01:01:26   if you have to reboot your car while driving it,

01:01:30   the one thing that probably won't work,

01:01:31   if you're, you know, forget about turn signals,

01:01:33   the part where the car drives itself,

01:01:35   yeah, I'd worry more about that,

01:01:37   'cause if you don't have a steering wheel,

01:01:39   and the driving part of the car reboots,

01:01:42   and you're going 70 miles an hour, that's a bad situation.

01:01:45   So add yet one more pebble to the giant pile

01:01:49   of reasons why full self-driving continues to be a fantasy

01:01:53   in the way that most people envision it.

01:01:56   - That's the thing, like, I'm so happy,

01:01:58   and I'm so fortunate that my entire career

01:02:02   has been spent writing software that,

01:02:04   in the grand scheme of things,

01:02:06   doesn't really have any major stakes,

01:02:08   doesn't really matter, like, if I write something

01:02:11   that has a bug, or if I mess up a server,

01:02:14   and something crashes, no one dies.

01:02:17   I don't have any kind of heavy stakes on what I do.

01:02:20   I've made an entire career basically out of helping people

01:02:24   waste time in various ways.

01:02:26   And it's kind of wonderful in the sense

01:02:28   that I don't have all that stress,

01:02:30   you know, that like, I might, you know,

01:02:32   mess up somehow and really get somebody hurt or killed,

01:02:36   but I also then don't tackle problems with this skillset

01:02:40   that might result in heavier stakes.

01:02:43   Tesla, the way, their software quality of their cars

01:02:47   is, granted, better than anything I could write.

01:02:52   And you look at like all the miles driven

01:02:54   on autopilot and everything,

01:02:55   and they are largely pretty good.

01:02:58   But to take on something like full self-driving

01:03:01   requires a level of rigor and perfection

01:03:05   and conservatism in development methodology

01:03:07   and things like that, like, you have to be so careful

01:03:10   and so rigorous and so slow moving and well tested.

01:03:15   That's just not how Tesla does almost anything.

01:03:21   And so I see them having a wonderful present and future

01:03:25   in doing stuff like Autopilot on the Highway,

01:03:29   which is like, this is a smaller problem set,

01:03:32   we can do a pretty good job of it

01:03:33   that works almost all the time,

01:03:35   and is a nice convenience feature,

01:03:37   and maybe improves average safety of our cars

01:03:40   per highway mile driven compared to humans

01:03:43   doing their own cruise control stuff.

01:03:46   That is a narrower problem domain

01:03:48   that they have proven to be pretty good at.

01:03:50   And as a five year Tesla owner,

01:03:53   I can say that has worked great so far.

01:03:57   Not 100% of the time.

01:03:58   There's still a lot of conditions in which it doesn't work,

01:04:00   but it is a wonderful convenience feature.

01:04:04   When you design convenience features though,

01:04:05   that's a whole different ballgame

01:04:07   compared to full self driving.

01:04:09   What that actually means,

01:04:10   not whatever Tesla's package of options calls that.

01:04:13   What full self driving actually means

01:04:15   is such a different ballgame,

01:04:17   requires such incredibly different

01:04:19   and much more advanced and much higher quality control

01:04:24   in that software development.

01:04:26   I don't see that just magically coming out next year

01:04:30   based on what Tesla has delivered so far.

01:04:33   And I don't even see Tesla being a company

01:04:36   that's gonna be the world leader in that

01:04:38   if and when it ever comes.

01:04:40   I don't see them being that kind of software organization

01:04:44   to have that kind of engineering discipline

01:04:47   and quality control, frankly.

01:04:49   I see them making really great cars

01:04:51   that are driven mostly in the traditional way

01:04:55   that have occasional convenience features like autopilot.

01:04:57   That they're very good at,

01:04:58   and I'm very happy using their cars that way.

01:05:02   But they seem to be wanting to push the cars

01:05:05   into a direction that I don't think they can do very well.

01:05:07   And I'm worried about that.

01:05:09   - Yeah, if you look at the industries

01:05:10   that are tackling similar problems,

01:05:12   they have gone through and continue to go through

01:05:14   all the things we always talk about with Tesla.

01:05:16   Like aviation, for example.

01:05:17   Planes that essentially fly themselves,

01:05:19   they have the exact same problem of like,

01:05:21   well, if the plane almost flies itself,

01:05:23   it can train the pilot into assuming

01:05:24   that the plane knows what it's doing,

01:05:25   but then the times when it gets it wrong,

01:05:27   then the pilot's not ready to intervene at the right moment.

01:05:29   And lots of crashes are about, you know,

01:05:31   if it was just the human, the human error causes crashes.

01:05:35   If it was just the computer,

01:05:36   computer error can cause crashes.

01:05:37   And if it's the human and the computer,

01:05:38   they can collaborate to get a whole new series of crashes

01:05:41   that would not happen if either one of them

01:05:42   was solely in control, right?

01:05:44   Like even just like the, what do you call it,

01:05:46   737 MAX thing of like how the plane behaves

01:05:48   slightly differently and the control program

01:05:51   was trying to do something safe,

01:05:52   but the pilot didn't know

01:05:53   and they're fighting each other, right?

01:05:54   That anti-pattern of like, well, it's not,

01:05:58   the human needs to be there and needs to be aware

01:06:00   and might need to intervene in a moment's notice,

01:06:02   but most of the time the computer does it

01:06:03   and it makes the humans not be able to be vigilant

01:06:06   for that amount of time.

01:06:07   And so aviation is constantly struggling with that.

01:06:09   Yes, we do want these safety features

01:06:11   because the plane can know and do things by itself

01:06:14   and eliminate human errors from many areas,

01:06:16   but we can't disengage the pilot.

01:06:18   The pilot still needs to be there.

01:06:20   It's super important that the pilot be there

01:06:21   because we know for a fact that there's no such thing

01:06:24   as full self flying.

01:06:25   Like, it's just, you need to have a pilot with controls

01:06:29   and the human, it's super important that the human is there

01:06:31   because sometimes it's super important

01:06:33   that the human take over, right?

01:06:35   And you have to manage that relationship

01:06:38   so that the human is not expected to do things

01:06:41   that no human should be expected to do, right?

01:06:44   And making that interface, making it help,

01:06:46   but not help too much, but not help too little,

01:06:48   but not, you know, like it's super hard.

01:06:51   And aviation is, like Mark was saying,

01:06:53   the opposite of how Tesla does things.

01:06:55   Everything in aviation has so many regulations

01:06:58   and so, you know, they're so careful

01:06:59   and such a long history that's respected about what works

01:07:02   and so conservative in every possible way.

01:07:05   Every time they push the envelope a little bit,

01:07:07   like the 737 MAX, like, oh, with software, we can do this

01:07:10   and do this advance and save money for the shareholders

01:07:12   if we just reuse some of this,

01:07:14   but just modify the plane in this way

01:07:15   and just like, just the littlest nudge in the direction

01:07:19   of trying to be like, move fast and break things

01:07:21   and hundreds of people die, right?

01:07:23   So I'm setting aside Tesla when I'm pessimistic

01:07:28   about self-driving.

01:07:29   I'm self-testimistic about it just in general.

01:07:30   Someone asked in the chat what episode

01:07:32   we talked about that last.

01:07:33   I think it was 165.

01:07:35   We'll put it in the show notes

01:07:36   if you wanna re-listen to that episode

01:07:37   and hear what we had to say years ago about self-driving,

01:07:39   but my attitude towards it hasn't changed.

01:07:41   But yeah, to Mark's point, Tesla is the company

01:07:44   that I least trust to do the default safe thing

01:07:48   when it comes to self-driving,

01:07:49   even if they happen to be the company

01:07:50   that actually has the most expertise in the area right now,

01:07:53   which is not a great combination.

01:07:55   Lots of expertise, but not a lot of wisdom, let's say.

01:07:59   - Yeah, and in the defense of Tesla,

01:08:01   which I can't believe I'm the one saying this,

01:08:03   I remember when I was working government contracting

01:08:06   that a lot of the stuff we did was like C++ and C#,

01:08:10   but I vividly remember that one of my coworkers

01:08:13   had to learn, I think it was Ada, if I'm not mistaken,

01:08:16   and there was a completely different programming language

01:08:19   that the government had basically compelled us to use,

01:08:24   and I probably have the details wrong,

01:08:26   and it doesn't really matter,

01:08:28   but I remember being told something along the lines of,

01:08:32   "With Ada, every entrance and exit from every function

01:08:35   "has to be defined," or something like that.

01:08:37   That sounds wrong, but it was extremely explicit

01:08:40   about everything that happened

01:08:42   in every piece of the program,

01:08:44   and so because of that, you knew with increased confidence,

01:08:48   if not perfect confidence, that what you were writing,

01:08:52   you have covered every possible case involved,

01:08:55   every outside of the envelope case,

01:08:57   inside the envelope case, happy path,

01:09:00   unhappy path, and everything else,

01:09:01   and that's why they used it

01:09:04   for some more embedded-style systems

01:09:06   at the place in which I was working

01:09:08   for government contracting stuff,

01:09:10   and it wouldn't surprise me, I bring this up

01:09:12   because it wouldn't surprise me

01:09:13   if the car control computers are using something

01:09:17   along the lines of Ada, maybe not Ada exactly,

01:09:20   but something along those lines,

01:09:22   even if the infotainment is running on Java

01:09:24   or something like that.

01:09:26   - Oh yeah, that's one of the reasons

01:09:28   why they're totally separate computers.

01:09:30   The infotainment system should have nothing

01:09:32   to do with driving, and from my understanding,

01:09:34   it doesn't now, which is good.

01:09:36   - I mean, whatever system has to do with the turn signals,

01:09:39   at least on your car, potentially is the system

01:09:42   that needs to be rebooted, so that's not great.

01:09:44   - Well, the display or the sound of the turn signals

01:09:47   is different from the operation of the turn signals, but--

01:09:50   - Right, well, think of the recall, though.

01:09:51   The recall was about like, oh, well, climate control

01:09:53   won't work and you can't turn on the defroster.

01:09:55   Okay, so now climate control, which I would argue

01:09:57   is part, and NHTSA would argue as well,

01:09:58   is part of the safety features of the car.

01:10:01   If the computer that is the only thing in the car

01:10:04   that can turn on the defroster, if that one has to reboot,

01:10:06   I'd say let's move that out of wherever it is now

01:10:09   and into the computer that supposedly doesn't crash.

01:10:11   - Yeah, and to be fair, that is true.

01:10:13   The climate control is controlled

01:10:15   by the navigation and media computer,

01:10:17   and that's another reason why physical controls can win out,

01:10:22   because anything that is on the touch screen,

01:10:24   this is why this came up in the first place

01:10:25   like two episodes ago, anything on the touch screen,

01:10:27   you might occasionally have to go without

01:10:29   for a few minutes while the system reboots,

01:10:32   and so that could be a problem.

01:10:34   You don't have to worry about the car suddenly

01:10:37   stopping and flying off the road,

01:10:39   but you might have to worry about the defroster

01:10:41   not being accessible or not knowing

01:10:43   whether your turn signal is on or not,

01:10:45   or not being able to control your drive direction

01:10:48   in the new one if the car guesses wrong.

01:10:51   So yeah, that's--

01:10:52   - Well, you do have to worry about it flying off the road,

01:10:54   but just you're supposed to take over control

01:10:56   immediately when you see that happening, just FYI.

01:10:58   - Oh, right.

01:10:59   - Or all your die, like that guy who,

01:11:00   that poor guy who died commuting to work

01:11:02   at the same place his car had veered

01:11:04   towards the barrier multiple times,

01:11:06   and then the one day he was just too sleepy to catch it,

01:11:08   and he died, that's just so terrible.

01:11:09   - Yeah, that really is.

01:11:11   - I mean, granted, people die every single day in cars

01:11:13   from their own mistakes, but it's like I said last week,

01:11:15   somehow, because humans are weird,

01:11:17   somehow it feels more fair when you screw up yourself

01:11:20   and die, you're just as dead,

01:11:21   and you're dead maybe even more often than you would be

01:11:23   if the car was helping you drive,

01:11:25   but it just feels worse when it's like,

01:11:27   hey, like, I, you know, car, you turned toward that tree,

01:11:32   and yeah, I was too slow in yanking the wheel back,

01:11:34   but honestly, car, you turned towards that tree,

01:11:36   and I feel worse about that than me just not paying attention

01:11:40   and hitting the tree myself.

01:11:42   - I don't know, it's so wild to me listening again

01:11:45   to you describing this operation, Marco, and thinking--

01:11:48   - The rebooting while driving.

01:11:49   - The rebooting operation, yeah.

01:11:51   This is the same man who refused to use a monitor

01:11:55   that was slightly wobbly and occasionally

01:11:57   didn't work perfectly, and yet his 4,500-whatever

01:12:02   pound automobile, he can occasionally reboot the infotainment

01:12:05   and just shrug it off as, oh, no big deal.

01:12:07   - Oh, it makes me angry every time,

01:12:09   but I just like the car so much and every other,

01:12:12   like, I love this car, I really do,

01:12:15   and I mean, we'll see, you know, my living situation here

01:12:20   is going to make it difficult to decide what to do

01:12:23   this fall when my lease is up,

01:12:25   but if I end up not keeping a car like this,

01:12:30   I'm going to be very upset, I'm going to very much miss it,

01:12:32   'cause I love this car so much.

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01:13:37   (upbeat music)

01:13:40   All right, so moving on to topics.

01:13:42   This is actually really exciting.

01:13:43   This is the second exciting thing I've seen from iOS 14.5.

01:13:46   I'm not running it yet, so I'm just looking at reports,

01:13:49   but supposedly, iOS 14.5 lets you set Spotify or others

01:13:53   as Siri's default music service.

01:13:56   How cool is that?

01:13:57   So it used to be, even today,

01:13:59   in the released versions of the OS,

01:14:01   you can say, "Hey, dingus, using Spotify,

01:14:04   play the most recent album by Meat Math,"

01:14:06   or something like that.

01:14:07   And it would work, usually.

01:14:09   But now it appears, from what I've read,

01:14:11   that you can just say, "Hey, dingus,

01:14:13   play the most recent album by Meat Math,"

01:14:15   and it'll just go and do it using Spotify

01:14:17   or whatever your service may be, which is super great.

01:14:19   - Yeah, and this seems like it's super early still.

01:14:21   Like, I mean, granted, this is reporting a feature

01:14:23   that's still in a relatively early beta series of iOS,

01:14:28   but even its implementation in the beta

01:14:30   seems a little bit flaky so far.

01:14:32   So we'll see if this ships with 14.5.

01:14:35   I would not recommend that anybody install the beta

01:14:38   right now just for this feature

01:14:39   because it is still a little bit iffy.

01:14:41   But this is one of those things

01:14:44   that we kind of never expected Apple to do.

01:14:48   And maybe they're only doing it

01:14:49   because of potential antitrust and regulatory pressure.

01:14:52   I'm sure that plays a significant role

01:14:54   in their decision to do this now.

01:14:56   But the reality is they're doing it, and that's great.

01:15:00   This is a feature that the Alexa ecosystem has had forever.

01:15:04   If you buy an Amazon Echo,

01:15:06   you've been able to go into the app

01:15:08   and select any of their supportive music services

01:15:11   as the default for years.

01:15:13   I don't know if it was there since day one,

01:15:15   but it's at least been there for years.

01:15:17   And so to have this feature here, it's wonderful

01:15:20   'cause then, as Casey said, instead of having to say

01:15:23   on every single request, hey, play ATP in Overcast.

01:15:28   Now you can just set a certain thing as your default.

01:15:31   For most people, it's probably gonna be Spotify

01:15:32   in this context, but you can set a certain thing.

01:15:35   You can say, all right, play Green Day in Spotify.

01:15:37   Green Day doesn't really hold up anymore.

01:15:38   Have you heard Green Day recently?

01:15:40   - No, I was never that into them.

01:15:42   I didn't actively dislike them or anything,

01:15:44   but it never really did that much for me,

01:15:46   and I have not heard it recently.

01:15:48   - There's a whole section of angry '90s music

01:15:51   that if you listen to it, at the time,

01:15:53   it didn't seem like, it seemed totally normal,

01:15:55   but if you listen to it now with modern sensibilities,

01:15:59   and it kinda doesn't hold up,

01:16:02   it's kind of uncomfortable to listen to some of it.

01:16:04   Anyway, they're one of those bands.

01:16:05   So suppose you played something better,

01:16:06   like, I don't know, Weezer, they seem relatively

01:16:10   unoffensive most of the time,

01:16:11   before you'd have to say on every single request,

01:16:13   play the latest Weezer album on Spotify,

01:16:15   if you were a Spotify user, and now you could set Spotify

01:16:19   as your default music app, and it looks like

01:16:20   they're also possibly doing podcast apps

01:16:23   that are built into this.

01:16:25   At the API level, the way this works is

01:16:27   there's a whole Siri, IAM play media intent series

01:16:31   of APIs, they launched a very basic version of it

01:16:35   when they launched Siri shortcuts,

01:16:36   which, was that iOS 12?

01:16:38   It was either 11 or 12, anyway, when they did that,

01:16:40   they did a very basic version of it

01:16:42   that could do almost nothing,

01:16:44   like the commands weren't parameterized,

01:16:46   so an app, you could like, vend to the system

01:16:49   a shortcut that played a particular artist

01:16:51   or playlist or whatever, but you couldn't

01:16:53   just accept any input, like people would have to create

01:16:55   one of those shortcuts for every single artist

01:16:57   or playlist they wanted to be able to call up,

01:17:00   and that changed in iOS 13, they finally let it

01:17:04   basically accept parameters, and so you could just respond

01:17:07   to the generic play media intent,

01:17:10   and you could even provide the Siri system

01:17:13   with a vocabulary of things like the names

01:17:16   of the user's playlists, so that way it would be able

01:17:19   to recognize that a little bit better,

01:17:21   or you could provide it like a list of artists

01:17:23   that the user has in their library,

01:17:25   and this API is structured, like the data formats

01:17:28   are structured, so you can say, for instance,

01:17:30   like, all right, this thing I'm telling you

01:17:31   is a playlist, or the thing I'm telling you

01:17:34   is a band or an album or a podcast,

01:17:38   and all those things are separately structured in the API,

01:17:40   so the API support is 100% there for them

01:17:43   to actually have podcasts be a separate thing,

01:17:46   and to be able to say, all right, this is my podcast app,

01:17:48   this is my music app, so I'm actually looking forward

01:17:51   to that, and Overcast in the current app store version

01:17:55   does not support that kind of thing,

01:17:56   but the current beta does, and I'm hoping

01:17:59   to have it out in the store possibly in like a week or two,

01:18:02   so anyway, Overcast will someday support this list,

01:18:05   and I'll be very happy when that happens,

01:18:07   and I hope they do podcasting separately,

01:18:09   'cause I wouldn't expect most people to set Overcast

01:18:11   as their default music app, but if they have a way

01:18:14   to set a podcast app, which the API support

01:18:16   is totally there for, then this could be really cool.

01:18:18   - Yeah, this is very cool.

01:18:19   - I feel like we're really starved for these features,

01:18:21   the default apps thing, what did we get in the recent OS?

01:18:24   We could do default mail.

01:18:25   - Mail and browser. - Which is exciting, yeah.

01:18:28   And then the music one, looking at the story,

01:18:29   the fact that the way you do it is not remotely

01:18:33   the same way you do it for mail and stuff,

01:18:35   it's like, oh, well, if you talk to, hey, Dingus,

01:18:39   you can interrogate it about, it will say,

01:18:41   hey, what do you want me to use to play music for you,

01:18:43   which is nice and everything convenient,

01:18:45   that should totally be there, but again,

01:18:47   I go back to, girl, general purpose personal computers,

01:18:51   we had this super secret technology,

01:18:53   which was to define default apps for different protocols,

01:18:56   for different URL schemes, for different functions

01:18:58   in the system, back in classic Mac OS,

01:19:01   it's not rocket science, I mean, it changes with the times,

01:19:04   like, you know, URL schemes is not probably

01:19:06   the way you wanna do it, but iOS clearly has a notion

01:19:10   of a thing that it uses to send mail,

01:19:12   a thing that it uses to play music,

01:19:14   a thing that it uses to open web pages,

01:19:17   that's already baked into the OS,

01:19:19   just make it generically configurable,

01:19:21   instead of this weird piecemeal doling out

01:19:24   of just the minimum we think we can do

01:19:25   to avoid antitrust condemnation from the US government,

01:19:29   which, honestly, seeing this happen at this point

01:19:32   is like, just everything they do from now on,

01:19:33   right or wrong, makes us think, oh,

01:19:35   the only reason you're doing this is to try not to get,

01:19:38   you know, sued into oblivion because of antitrust stuff,

01:19:41   right, and really, I just wish they would allow

01:19:45   the incredibly powerful computers in our pockets

01:19:47   to sort of blossom and just be like a Mac from the '90s

01:19:50   and just let me configure my default news reader,

01:19:53   my default, like, just let me do it

01:19:55   in a straightforward way, and I think the way

01:19:57   they did it for Mailier thing is great,

01:19:58   like, there are things that you have to,

01:20:01   qualifications, things you have to fulfill

01:20:06   to be eligible to be the default email application,

01:20:10   and as I said ages ago and as people have proven,

01:20:13   they'll do it, people will do it,

01:20:15   Gmail has configured itself to be the default app,

01:20:18   like Chrome to be the default browser,

01:20:20   like, nevermind, Chrome isn't really Chrome,

01:20:22   iOS, which is a whole other thing,

01:20:23   but I just wish they would stop dribbling out

01:20:27   these little crumbs piecemeal and just go whole hog

01:20:30   and say we have a generic system for defining

01:20:33   the default application for all common functions

01:20:35   on the phone and a system for you to be able

01:20:37   to qualify to be one of those applications

01:20:39   and let the user control which one of those applications

01:20:41   they wanna use and then Apple's apps have to compete

01:20:43   on their merits and not just get by

01:20:45   by being the default one, which, granted,

01:20:47   is a huge advantage just because it's pre-installed,

01:20:50   if that's not enough advantage for Apple

01:20:52   and they still also have to say, oh, and by the way,

01:20:53   it's super inconvenient to use anything else,

01:20:55   that's terrible, just, what we're asking for

01:20:57   is a little bit more competition

01:20:59   and a little bit more flexibility for people

01:21:01   who want to configure their phones the way they want.

01:21:04   - Well, I think in all fairness, almost every year at WWDC,

01:21:08   we talk about some new API that they have offered

01:21:13   or some new capability they've changed

01:21:14   so that something that was previously locked down

01:21:17   to only Apple's stuff or only them being able

01:21:19   to do certain things is then now opened to third parties

01:21:23   and they have been knocking down

01:21:25   a lot of these walls over time.

01:21:27   They were just starting from a place

01:21:29   where there were a million walls

01:21:30   and they're knocking them down pretty slowly.

01:21:31   - Yeah, and sometimes they just knock down a couple bricks

01:21:33   in one of the walls and then they think the job is done

01:21:36   and it's like, well, I can see through the wall

01:21:38   and I can reach one arm through it

01:21:39   but it's not really the same as there not being a wall.

01:21:41   - Or they give you a ladder to go over the wall

01:21:43   but it doesn't actually work

01:21:45   and they don't have to use that ladder,

01:21:46   they don't even realize how badly it works

01:21:48   and you try to use it and you keep falling off

01:21:50   and the rungs keep breaking and everything, yeah.

01:21:52   - This is a complicated analogy.

01:21:53   I was thinking like custom keyboard support, right,

01:21:55   which they did and we were all shocked

01:21:57   but if they don't maintain that and test all their stuff,

01:22:00   it's like, oh, it's there and it's available for you

01:22:03   but a whole bunch of bugs happen with it

01:22:05   and when you report the bugs,

01:22:06   it's like, well, just use the regular keyboard

01:22:07   and that bug won't happen.

01:22:09   It's like, ugh.

01:22:10   - Yeah, exactly.

01:22:11   And I mean, God, there's nowhere

01:22:13   that I wanna break down the walls more than the watch.

01:22:16   Oh my God, the watch is, ugh.

01:22:18   But that's the story for another day.

01:22:20   (laughs)

01:22:21   Why, okay.

01:22:22   (laughs)

01:22:23   - No, he couldn't help himself.

01:22:24   He couldn't help himself.

01:22:26   - All right.

01:22:28   As I said, I've been wearing the Apple Watch full time

01:22:30   for the last few months for reasons

01:22:31   and every night, Adam's in bed,

01:22:34   we sit down and we watch a little bit of TV

01:22:36   and we have some tea

01:22:37   and I pour the tea water into the teacups,

01:22:40   I pick up my watch to my face

01:22:42   and I say, set a five-minute timer.

01:22:45   Most of the time, it sets the five-minute timer.

01:22:48   Fine, okay, that's the story for another day.

01:22:50   Most of the time it works.

01:22:52   It pops up a thing and it says,

01:22:55   get your timer counting down

01:22:56   and there's a button on there that says open timer.

01:22:59   Now, no matter what I do from this point,

01:23:01   here's what I want.

01:23:03   I want my watch that is a computer that is smart

01:23:07   to show a timer on the face when one is running.

01:23:12   And then for that timer when it's no longer running

01:23:16   to not be shown on the face.

01:23:18   The iPhone does this.

01:23:21   The iPhone has done this for over a decade actually

01:23:24   on the lock screen.

01:23:26   It's smart.

01:23:27   It has the concept that this area on the lock screen

01:23:30   that's by the clock and that little area

01:23:33   can be used to display high-importance things

01:23:36   in a conservative way sometimes

01:23:38   but that's a valuable thing that is useful

01:23:41   to display that information.

01:23:43   On the watch, a timekeeping device,

01:23:47   these timing functions of things like timers

01:23:50   do not display on the watch face by any reasonable way.

01:23:54   The only way you can make it display on the watch face

01:23:56   is either to leave the timer app on the watch open

01:23:59   as the active app, which we'll get to in a second,

01:24:01   or to have it as a complication on your watch face

01:24:05   which means all the entire rest of the day

01:24:08   that you're not running a timer,

01:24:09   you have this complication spot wasted

01:24:11   and sometimes it even, depending on the type,

01:24:13   it might even say things like set or whatever.

01:24:16   So it's not doing a great job at integrating

01:24:21   this temporary high-importance thing into the watch face.

01:24:25   Secondly, we have an always-on screen

01:24:29   for the last year and a half.

01:24:32   This is a wonderful feature.

01:24:33   This has changed the Apple Watch so much.

01:24:37   One of the biggest reasons I am now able to tolerate

01:24:39   wearing it full-time is that it has that always-on screen.

01:24:43   But when the always-on screen launched,

01:24:45   it had this weird behavior that, okay,

01:24:49   when you're on a watch face, and that's what's showing,

01:24:52   and the screen goes to its half-sleep mode

01:24:55   where the screen is still on,

01:24:56   but it goes to a less information display mode

01:24:59   and doesn't activate as much and everything,

01:25:01   when it's in its sleep mode,

01:25:03   you see just a dimmed version of the watch face.

01:25:06   It's simplified certain things, don't animate,

01:25:09   but you're still seeing the watch face,

01:25:11   and any data that's on the watch face,

01:25:13   like your complications, the date, whatever,

01:25:16   that's all still displayed.

01:25:17   If, however, you had an app open

01:25:21   at the time that the screen went to sleep,

01:25:23   it simply displays a blurred version of that app

01:25:26   behind a digital clock face.

01:25:28   Yet another way I was able to tolerate

01:25:30   the Apple Watch full-time now

01:25:32   is that I just used the solar face, which is digital,

01:25:34   so that the time always looks the same

01:25:36   no matter what state my watch is in.

01:25:38   I don't have to keep bouncing between

01:25:39   their bad analog displays and their digital displays.

01:25:42   Sorry, it's just always digital, fine.

01:25:45   So anyway, when you have a timer running,

01:25:48   you either have to go back to your home screen watch face,

01:25:53   which probably doesn't have a timer complication on it,

01:25:56   or you can leave the timer app open,

01:25:59   in which case, when the screen goes to sleep and blurs,

01:26:04   it just shows a blurry version of whatever time amount

01:26:07   was left when the screen went to sleep,

01:26:09   and it leaves that there indefinitely,

01:26:12   until you wake it up, and then you see

01:26:14   the actual timer remaining pop in after a second.

01:26:18   The screen is always on.

01:26:22   When this was a brand new feature a year and a half ago,

01:26:25   maybe they didn't have time to really integrate

01:26:29   all of the features of the watch

01:26:30   into this new hardware capability of the always-on screen.

01:26:34   That was a year and a half ago, though.

01:26:36   Now, today, I would expect a timer

01:26:40   to be able to display live countdown time

01:26:44   once per second, like the workout screen

01:26:47   can do once per second updates full-time.

01:26:50   Why can't the timer do that?

01:26:52   Why does it instead show this blurry card

01:26:54   of the old time under it?

01:26:55   Am I the only person who uses timers on a watch?

01:26:59   I can't possibly be, right?

01:27:01   Does anybody use this stuff?

01:27:03   So I do, and I do it a lot,

01:27:06   and I almost always start a timer using the call word,

01:27:11   hey, dingus, start a timer for five minutes.

01:27:14   But honest to goodness, the amount of times

01:27:18   that I'm looking to see the state of the timer

01:27:21   is near as makes no difference to zero.

01:27:24   I do not care how much time is left.

01:27:26   I just care that it has or has not happened.

01:27:28   And because of that, none of what you're saying bothers me.

01:27:31   I don't disagree with anything you've said.

01:27:33   I think you're correct.

01:27:34   I think it should work differently,

01:27:35   and I think it should work as you describe.

01:27:37   But for me, I'm never like, oh, it's 30 seconds left,

01:27:42   or oh, how much time is left?

01:27:44   And if so, it's so unusual that I'll just tap the watch

01:27:47   and go to the timer app or whatever the case may be,

01:27:51   which is frustrating, but it's so rare that I do it

01:27:54   that it doesn't really bother me that much.

01:27:56   - The problem is the way that all the other apps

01:28:01   besides workout, the way that they just blur

01:28:03   under whatever the digital time is,

01:28:06   it's as though the same company didn't make

01:28:09   the watch and the timer app.

01:28:11   It feels as though this is a bunch of third-party apps

01:28:15   working on this platform that has no idea about them

01:28:18   and doesn't treat any of them as first-class citizens

01:28:21   on the platform except the workout app.

01:28:24   And there's a lot of value.

01:28:25   I, when I'm doing a workout, I love what the workout app has

01:28:30   'cause then I literally can see everything all the time.

01:28:32   That's fantastic.

01:28:34   Why can't that be applied to a few other things

01:28:36   that would be really useful on a watch?

01:28:40   And you know what, if you can't support third-party apps

01:28:42   that way yet because you're not ready to give them

01:28:44   that kind of power budget, okay, I understand.

01:28:47   But your own apps, like the built-in timer and stopwatch,

01:28:50   like why can't they do that?

01:28:52   It seems like, everything with the Apple Watch,

01:28:56   it just seems like they have two interns working on it.

01:29:00   Like where is the movement happening here?

01:29:03   Like why is this smart computer watch so dumb?

01:29:07   Why does it not take advantage more of the fact

01:29:11   that it is a computer and it has a dynamic screen,

01:29:14   it can show whatever it wants to all the time now?

01:29:17   Like why are the apps all still so dumb?

01:29:21   - I feel like this is one area where I can map on

01:29:24   to the departure of Jonny Ive and say hopefully

01:29:26   all the people who are super precious about watches

01:29:29   have mostly exited the building or aren't in control

01:29:33   and we can finally get things like watch faces

01:29:36   that don't feel as much need to imitate

01:29:39   what a physical watch face could do

01:29:41   and instead just fully embrace being computers

01:29:43   and then we can get third-party watch faces

01:29:45   and all that good stuff.

01:29:46   So I'm hopeful that will come down the road

01:29:48   'cause it always seemed to me that especially

01:29:49   in the beginning of the Apple Watch,

01:29:50   Apple was very tied to the idea of it as something

01:29:55   is just as, not only just as valid as a mechanical watch

01:29:59   but also gaining that validity by imitating the limitations

01:30:04   of that form and that is and probably has always been

01:30:08   the wrong choice for the watch and we continue to lobby

01:30:10   for it to be more like the little computer

01:30:13   that it actually is.

01:30:14   - Someday.

01:30:15   - All right, finally for today before we get to Ask ATP,

01:30:19   maybe, we have a story that broke in the last few days.

01:30:24   So Dan Riccio, we were wondering to some degree

01:30:29   where he's ending up and according to Bloomberg,

01:30:33   his new project is as we kind of thought maybe,

01:30:37   overseeing Apple's VR and AR headsets

01:30:39   and Apple has shifted its team to develop in-house screens

01:30:44   and its team to develop camera technology

01:30:47   to its chip chief so reading from this Bloomberg article,

01:30:51   Dan Riccio is focusing on the company's upcoming virtual

01:30:53   and augmented reality devices after he shed his role

01:30:55   as the head of hardware engineering according to people

01:30:57   with knowledge of the move.

01:30:58   Apple has also told staff it is moving the group working

01:31:01   on in-house displays and camera technology to Johnny Ceruggi,

01:31:06   the executive in charge of processors and cellular modems.

01:31:08   The move suggests the company's getting closer

01:31:10   to shipping its first devices with fully custom displays,

01:31:13   replacing those from outside suppliers.

01:31:15   Apple is a facility near its Silicon Valley headquarters

01:31:18   that's developing micro LED screens.

01:31:21   - So a reminder, micro LED screens are the super cool ones

01:31:23   where every little tiny element in the pixels,

01:31:26   the little red dot, the little green dot

01:31:28   and the little blue dot, each one of those little tiny LEDs,

01:31:31   it puts out its own light, no backlight and no organic.

01:31:35   These are not organic LEDs so it's not an OLED screen,

01:31:39   it's micro LED, at least I think they're not organic.

01:31:41   Anyway, micro LED is cool and I'll be excited to see that.

01:31:45   Confirmation, or confirmation, a rumor in support

01:31:49   of the idea that Dan Riggio is doing the VR headset

01:31:52   makes perfect sense and then moving the display

01:31:56   and camera stuff under Johnny Ceruggi, the chip guy,

01:32:00   I mean, being the big chip guy at Apple right now,

01:32:03   it's a pretty good place to be.

01:32:05   Reminds me of that funny Intel ad where the guy

01:32:07   who invented USB is the big star of Intel, right?

01:32:10   - Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. - Nevermind, they should

01:32:12   be throwing food at him for approving the USB-A connector.

01:32:15   But anyway, if you're the chip guy at Apple right now,

01:32:19   you feel pretty good, you feel pretty good

01:32:20   about your job performance, I have to say.

01:32:22   Not that you shouldn't have been before

01:32:23   because the iPhone chips are phenomenal, right?

01:32:25   But just chips at Apple, doing good.

01:32:28   And so taking something like displays and camera

01:32:30   and putting it under the chip guy, that's gotta be good.

01:32:32   Not that Apple's been a slouch in the displays

01:32:35   and camera area but mostly they buy sensors from Sony

01:32:38   and they buy displays from LG, right?

01:32:41   And the whole Apple's in-house display stuff,

01:32:45   we heard the rumors of microLED.

01:32:47   I think in fact that's the first time I even heard microLED

01:32:49   years ago was that Apple was investigating it

01:32:51   and then they bailed on it because it wasn't ready enough.

01:32:53   But they continued to dig away at that.

01:32:56   And I have to think, at least for some of these rumors,

01:33:00   the screen, the first sort of Apple-made display

01:33:04   that we might have some hope of seeing

01:33:05   would be in the glasses, right?

01:33:07   But there have been rumors for years about,

01:33:08   oh, we're gonna get laptops with mini-LED screens

01:33:12   or different kinds of display technology on laptops,

01:33:14   maybe an OLED laptop, all sorts of things.

01:33:16   But I always just assume Apple would buy those

01:33:17   from third-party vendors.

01:33:19   But from the rumors, it seems like whatever they're putting

01:33:22   in these AR/VR thingies may actually be some displays

01:33:25   that you can't just buy off the shelf from somewhere

01:33:28   and possibly Apple's in-house stuff is going that direction.

01:33:30   And we've talked in the past for a long time

01:33:32   about Apple doing its own cell modems.

01:33:34   They're getting there, it takes a long time.

01:33:36   They'll eventually do it.

01:33:37   But I am actually excited about the prospect of Apple

01:33:41   either doing its own cameras, as in their own sensors,

01:33:44   and/or doing their own displays.

01:33:46   'Cause both of those areas are places,

01:33:50   with the Tim Cook doctrine or whatever,

01:33:52   to own and control all the primary technologies.

01:33:54   There's a limit to that.

01:33:55   Apple doesn't wanna own maybe the mines

01:33:59   where the aluminum come from, right?

01:34:01   But they do want to, like, making your own displays.

01:34:05   They buy parts from lots of people,

01:34:06   and they love being able to buy parts from lots of people

01:34:08   because then you can set one vendor against the other

01:34:09   and be super demanding and get good prices and so on.

01:34:12   But sometimes you do wanna try to do it yourself,

01:34:14   like the chips.

01:34:15   Great move, Apple doing that yourself.

01:34:16   That turned out to be a super great idea.

01:34:18   So good they did it across their whole line, right?

01:34:21   I think making your own displays is maybe borderline

01:34:24   'cause displays is a tough gig

01:34:26   and they're kind of a commodity.

01:34:28   And I think Apple has done pretty well,

01:34:31   essentially buying off the shelf displays

01:34:34   or specifying displays like,

01:34:35   "LG, can you please make us a 5K iMac display

01:34:37   and you'll be able to put it

01:34:38   in your own credit monitor too," right?

01:34:40   But I am excited about Apple trying to make its own displays

01:34:43   even if they're like special purpose displays

01:34:45   for the goggles or whatever,

01:34:46   just because Apple's got a lot of money

01:34:48   and why not try your hand at that

01:34:50   because it is definitely a value add,

01:34:51   especially for things like VR glasses

01:34:53   where the display and the specifics of the display are,

01:34:57   A, it's a different kind of display

01:34:59   in terms of what features make it good and bad,

01:35:00   like when it's an inch from your eyeballs

01:35:02   and you're only looking at a portion of it,

01:35:03   and B, no one has really cracked that nut.

01:35:06   Like the current set of VR goggles,

01:35:10   the displays are good,

01:35:12   but most people look at them and say,

01:35:14   "I could see how this display could be better," right?

01:35:17   And so I would love for Apple to innovate in that area.

01:35:19   Cameras, I'm less optimistic that Apple's going to come out

01:35:23   with something that is amazing sensor-wise

01:35:25   'cause it seems like Apple's strengths with the cameras

01:35:26   are not maybe the sensor or even the lenses,

01:35:29   they're more about the processing,

01:35:31   but who knows, like vertical integration,

01:35:33   I think it can work out well in both of those areas.

01:35:35   So I think this is all good news

01:35:37   for things going on inside Apple,

01:35:39   and I will be super excited

01:35:40   if anything micro-LED comes out of Apple anytime soon.

01:35:44   - Well, I got dibs on your $7,000 monitor

01:35:47   when you resell it.

01:35:48   - They're not gonna come out

01:35:49   with a 32-inch micro-LED screen, I don't think.

01:35:52   Or if they did, it would cost a lot more than this one.

01:35:54   - John, on an infinite time scale, anything is possible.

01:35:57   - Eventually, well, that's the problem

01:35:58   with display technology is like,

01:36:00   God, the alphabet soup of display technology

01:36:02   is really getting confusing up to the point now

01:36:05   where I think someone, one of the,

01:36:06   I wish I could remember these details

01:36:08   when I'm just going off the top of my head,

01:36:09   one of the TV manufacturers tried to trademark

01:36:12   one of the alphabet soup acronyms,

01:36:13   but someone, another TV manufacturer

01:36:18   already did the actual thing that's that,

01:36:19   I think it was QNED, it's very confusing,

01:36:23   but these things mean something,

01:36:24   like they make up an acronym for a thing,

01:36:26   and one company that's not doing that

01:36:29   decided they're gonna use the same acronym

01:36:31   and trademark it, but your screen isn't a QNED,

01:36:35   I forget if it was QNED, but your screen isn't a QNED,

01:36:37   so why would you try to trademark QNED

01:36:39   for your non-QNED screen?

01:36:41   And it's just, it's so, I don't know how consumers

01:36:43   try to make hesitages out of it,

01:36:44   I have to remind myself three times

01:36:45   every time I look at this, you know.

01:36:47   All the different quantum dot combined with inorganic

01:36:51   or organic LEDs, just, it's a mess.

01:36:54   But all that is to say that it's not clear

01:36:58   what the next great display technology will be.

01:37:00   We may skip over some of these ones

01:37:03   that we keep trying to get to work

01:37:04   and they don't seem to ship, you know,

01:37:06   right now you can get a micro LED display

01:37:09   for 100 grand that fills the wall of your house,

01:37:12   but we may just skip over micro LED

01:37:15   if it turns out one of the other more promising technologies

01:37:17   that has even better attributes

01:37:19   ends up becoming manufacturable at a reasonable price first.

01:37:22   - All right, let's try to power through some Ask ATP.

01:37:26   Jordan Cosentino writes, "What are your thoughts

01:37:28   "on corporate device management profiles

01:37:30   "on personal use devices?

01:37:31   "I know the Casey and Marco no longer have jobby jobs,

01:37:33   "but I was curious how you felt about this policy

01:37:35   "when you did or how John feels.

01:37:36   "My company requires that we have MS Teams,

01:37:39   "Outlook, et cetera installed in our phones,

01:37:41   "which must then be managed by corporate profile.

01:37:43   "They will grant a small monthly subsidy

01:37:45   "for your cellular plan, but it's not generous.

01:37:47   "I talked to IT and while they claim it's primarily

01:37:49   "to give the company remote erase functionality,

01:37:51   "they said they would only monitor web traffic

01:37:53   "related to quote client information, quote,

01:37:56   "which really feels like a gross situation.

01:37:57   "I could of course buy a cheap side phone just for this,

01:37:59   "but the subsidy would not cover a full separate plan,

01:38:02   "so it would end up costing me monthly,

01:38:03   "and then I would have to carry another device

01:38:04   "around with me.

01:38:05   "I don't like either option,

01:38:07   "but companies forcing management device policies

01:38:09   "through bring your own device

01:38:10   "really feels aggressive to me."

01:38:12   Yeah, I agree.

01:38:15   When I most recently had a jobby job,

01:38:19   I knew the IT guy really, really well,

01:38:22   and I really browbeat him about this.

01:38:25   I was like, what is this about?

01:38:27   Like, what am I really signing up for here?

01:38:29   And his, what he parroted to me anyway,

01:38:32   and what I believe to be true,

01:38:33   was that no, really, it was just about

01:38:35   remote destruction if necessary.

01:38:38   Like, if I lose my device, they will fire off a remote wipe

01:38:41   just to make sure that nothing private

01:38:43   or no corporate secrets get out.

01:38:46   And because I knew the IT guy and because I trusted him,

01:38:49   I went with it and it was fine for me.

01:38:52   If I was in Jordan's situation where it's like,

01:38:55   no, no, no, they're gonna be sniffing your web traffic

01:38:57   and it seems like they're willing to reach a little further,

01:39:00   honestly, what I would probably do is try to use

01:39:03   some sort of like web-based Gmail client,

01:39:06   or I said Gmail, web-based email client,

01:39:08   if possible, or just not check my email on my phone.

01:39:12   Like, if this is the way you wanna be, then that's fine,

01:39:15   but I'm just not gonna have my email on my phone.

01:39:17   And I understand that that's something

01:39:21   that can be a very hard thing to sell,

01:39:23   but hey, listen, if you want me to have a device,

01:39:26   so I can check my email anytime, give me a device.

01:39:29   And if you want to take over my device,

01:39:32   it should be my option to say thanks, but no thanks.

01:39:36   I don't know, Jon, what are you doing about this?

01:39:38   - Yeah, I feel like this is one of those things

01:39:39   that you should think about and potentially talk about

01:39:42   when deciding which job you're going to take.

01:39:45   Like, if the company requires you to have a phone,

01:39:49   but also won't give you a phone,

01:39:50   but then requires that they install this profile,

01:39:53   maybe if you talk to the IT person like Casey did

01:39:55   and you believe them, you can say,

01:39:57   oh no, we're not doing anything bad,

01:39:58   but once they get that profile in there,

01:40:00   that enterprise profile thing,

01:40:01   they can man in the middle all of your traffic.

01:40:03   They can do everything they could possibly imagine, right?

01:40:05   So you should know that.

01:40:06   If this type of thing,

01:40:07   if you have any concern about this whatsoever,

01:40:10   you should know and ask about,

01:40:12   are you gonna do this to me?

01:40:13   Because I think that's the worst scenario

01:40:14   is like this bring your own device.

01:40:16   Hey, you get to use your own phone, isn't that great?

01:40:17   Yeah, it's great for the company.

01:40:18   You don't have to buy me a phone then.

01:40:20   Oh, but by the way, we have to install this profile on it

01:40:22   because you have to be accessible by smartphone

01:40:24   because of these job requirements, right?

01:40:26   Talk about that, find out about it

01:40:27   before you accept the job offer.

01:40:29   And it's not like you're gonna change corporate policy

01:40:31   by demanding it 'cause they'll just be like,

01:40:32   all right, see ya, that's the way this company works.

01:40:34   But you should know that that's what you're signing up for

01:40:37   and decide not to sign up for it if it bothers you.

01:40:39   I've been lucky enough at the jobs that I've worked

01:40:41   where they insist on having all their crap on your device

01:40:46   if it's a device that they give you and pay for, right?

01:40:49   But if they don't give you a device and pay for it,

01:40:53   then they don't insist that they put crap on your phone.

01:40:56   So my personal policy is,

01:40:58   it wouldn't probably be a deal breaker

01:41:00   'cause anyone who has had a jobby job

01:41:02   for any amount of time knows that there's a surprising amount

01:41:05   of crap that you'll tolerate.

01:41:06   I just talked about all the antivirus crap

01:41:09   that's all over my Mac, right?

01:41:11   I'll tolerate a lot.

01:41:12   I've had a corporate job for 20 plus years, right?

01:41:15   You learn to tolerate it.

01:41:16   But I really, really prefer

01:41:19   to not have any stuff on my phone.

01:41:21   I could do more from my phone

01:41:24   if I allowed them to install the enterprise profile,

01:41:26   but I won't.

01:41:27   And so I just simply can't check my work email from my phone

01:41:30   and it's fine.

01:41:30   Like, I have a work laptop that I can check it from.

01:41:33   I could tether it to my phone for internet access

01:41:35   if I really needed to, right?

01:41:37   But my phone, my preference is to essentially

01:41:40   have a personal phone that has absolutely nothing

01:41:42   related to work on it.

01:41:43   The only thing work-related I have in here is like,

01:41:45   you know, some two-factor apps that I can run on my phone

01:41:47   that you just download from the app store

01:41:48   and they work fine.

01:41:51   I think if the two-factor apps didn't work,

01:41:53   because I actually do need those apps for my work,

01:41:55   I don't know what I would do.

01:41:56   Would I buy a second phone?

01:41:57   Like, most people don't have the luxury to be able to,

01:42:01   the luxury to be able to reject the job

01:42:03   because they don't like some nuance of corporate IT policy

01:42:06   or the luxury to just have two phones,

01:42:08   their day phone and their night phone or whatever.

01:42:10   But I would just suggest thinking about this when you go in

01:42:13   and if given the choice at all,

01:42:16   keep all work stuff away from your phone if you can.

01:42:19   Like, if they'll buy you a phone and pay for it,

01:42:21   just make that your work phone and then just have it

01:42:23   be separate from your personal phone.

01:42:24   And I know that seems like it's cumbersome,

01:42:25   but it's actually not that bad

01:42:27   and you'll have a lot more peace of mind

01:42:29   and a lot less terrible corporate malware

01:42:32   on the device that you use.

01:42:34   - Right, 'cause like, your phone is one of your computers.

01:42:37   In many people's cases, it's their only computer

01:42:39   or their primary computer.

01:42:40   Listeners to this show, it's probably not your only,

01:42:42   but I bet it's an important computer of yours.

01:42:44   And so reframe the same question

01:42:46   as if it were about your computer.

01:42:49   Like, would you tolerate your employer forcing you

01:42:54   to have certain software installed on your home computer?

01:42:57   Probably not, right?

01:42:59   And many people, the only computer they have

01:43:01   is their work computer.

01:43:03   And they make that work somehow.

01:43:05   But the more overbearing your workplace

01:43:08   is going to be about it,

01:43:10   obviously people listening to this show

01:43:12   care a lot about their computers probably,

01:43:13   and so you would probably not want your workplace

01:43:17   to control your home computer that much

01:43:19   if they were gonna have this level of control over it.

01:43:22   So your phone should be the same way.

01:43:23   Your phone is another one of your computers

01:43:25   and you should treat it with the same kind of separation

01:43:30   and reverence and care that you would treat

01:43:32   your home computer.

01:43:33   And so I would never, I mean, granted,

01:43:36   nobody cares what I think about this,

01:43:37   but I would never in a million years

01:43:39   let my employer install a controlling profile

01:43:43   on my home computer, and in the same way,

01:43:45   I wouldn't let them install it on my only phone.

01:43:47   And as John said, if they are buying me a phone

01:43:51   for work purposes, then I think if they're paying for it,

01:43:54   they have the right to control it,

01:43:56   as long as they disclose to you that they're doing that,

01:43:57   I think then that's fine.

01:44:00   But then in that case, I would also choose

01:44:02   to carry my own phone.

01:44:03   - I think we all agree.

01:44:05   Doc Davis writes, "I actually really, really like

01:44:07   "this question a lot.

01:44:08   "What is your favorite or most obscure media file

01:44:11   "that you are proud to have and/or enjoy the most?"

01:44:15   - I've mentioned this a few times in the past.

01:44:17   The first, I'm gonna mention three really quickly.

01:44:19   The first is the concert for Charlottesville.

01:44:22   So in 2016, after the god-awful things happened

01:44:24   in Charlottesville, Dave Matthews, amongst others,

01:44:27   put together a concert with many, many, many

01:44:29   different artists, and it was something like six hours,

01:44:32   and it happened in UVA's football stadium,

01:44:33   and it was free for those who attended,

01:44:35   if I'm not mistaken.

01:44:36   And it was simulcast online, and using my beloved

01:44:39   YouTube DL, I recorded it, and to my knowledge,

01:44:43   as last I looked, my recording is the only one

01:44:46   that I'm aware of, maybe not the only one in actuality.

01:44:49   That is the entire concert, start to finish.

01:44:52   And I have hemmed and hawed quite a bit about,

01:44:55   you know, should I upload this somewhere?

01:44:56   And I'm currently sitting on the conclusion of no,

01:44:58   because I don't wanna get yelled at for DMCA stuff

01:45:01   and stuff like that.

01:45:03   But this concert is a phenomenal concert,

01:45:05   and most of my favorite parts of the concert

01:45:09   have nothing to do with Dave Matthews at all.

01:45:11   It is a phenomenal, phenomenal concert that I don't think

01:45:14   exists anywhere else, and it's really too bad.

01:45:16   It's really quite unfortunate that it doesn't exist

01:45:18   anywhere else, because this is something that I think

01:45:20   should be viewable, and potentially for free,

01:45:23   or for a donation to a worthwhile charity or something.

01:45:27   Very quickly, when I was in college, I was really into

01:45:29   Vertical Horizon, who, if you've heard of them at all,

01:45:31   you know their song, Everything You Want.

01:45:34   They actually started not as a rock band,

01:45:37   but as a kind of folksy acoustic duo,

01:45:40   and some of their early stuff in particular

01:45:41   is really phenomenal.

01:45:43   And when I was in college in the early aughts,

01:45:46   and this was around the time that Napster was coming out,

01:45:49   but oftentimes if you wanted a big collection of media,

01:45:52   particularly by the same artist, you would scour the internet

01:45:56   for credentials to an FTP server that was public,

01:45:59   and in certain cases, you know, people would put up

01:46:02   FTP servers where you could just go and leech,

01:46:03   or basically download all the stuff on that server,

01:46:06   and I did that with some god-awful terrible sound quality

01:46:09   but extremely rare Vertical Horizon concerts,

01:46:12   and so I have what is probably hundreds of megs of MP3s,

01:46:16   which for the time was an obscene amount of content

01:46:18   of a very, very early on Vertical Horizon concerts,

01:46:21   which I'm sure most of you are thinking,

01:46:23   oh my god, you would, but you know what,

01:46:24   I like it, so piss off.

01:46:26   And then finally, my granddad, my dad's dad,

01:46:30   who passed a couple years back, when he was younger,

01:46:34   he would occasionally have New York area jazz musicians

01:46:39   come into his house or later apartment and play sets.

01:46:43   - Oh my god.

01:46:45   - And so, yeah, and so dad, who was probably about my age,

01:46:50   maybe a little younger than me at the time,

01:46:53   he would record these concerts on reel-to-reel,

01:46:57   because this was like late '70s, early '80s,

01:47:00   and just recently, my dad has rediscovered,

01:47:04   I think he has one of the reel-to-reel tapes,

01:47:07   but he had also, at some point in the past,

01:47:10   had them put on cassette, and even has a video

01:47:13   of one of the sets, and so he's in the process right now

01:47:16   of digitizing some of these old jazz sets

01:47:19   with, I think, Milt Hinton was there, I think Zoot Sims,

01:47:22   apparently Zoot Sims was my best friend when I was two,

01:47:25   or something like that.

01:47:26   So anyways, and maybe I got these names wrong,

01:47:30   but the point being, these are concerts

01:47:32   that maybe 10 or 15 or 20 people saw ever,

01:47:34   and from artists that are mostly dead at this point,

01:47:37   and so dad is trying to digitize them,

01:47:40   and granted, the audio quality is meh at best,

01:47:43   but it's better than nothing, and so dad's digitizing them,

01:47:46   and I have already started pitching to him,

01:47:48   hey, you really gotta put these on like archive.org

01:47:51   or something like that when they're all said and done.

01:47:53   I don't know if that's what's gonna happen,

01:47:56   'cause it's his, as far as I'm concerned,

01:47:57   he might not be interested in it,

01:47:59   but I will say, I have channeled my inner Marco Arment,

01:48:02   and have convinced him to record off of the cassettes

01:48:05   to flack, and then recompress those to MP3

01:48:10   or do whatever he wants with them.

01:48:11   So that is my inner Marco Arment slash my old school

01:48:14   Dave Matthews coming out of me.

01:48:16   But all of this stuff, like all of this stuff,

01:48:18   I think is worth sharing, and it bums me out

01:48:21   that there's no obviously safe way to share

01:48:26   all of these things, because especially with the concert

01:48:30   for Charlottesville, these are all modern artists

01:48:32   who are still touring and record, well,

01:48:35   the whole thing's not being equal.

01:48:37   They're touring and recording and whatnot,

01:48:39   and I'm sure that I would get hit with DMCA

01:48:42   takedown requests or something like that.

01:48:43   And it sucks, 'cause I would love to share this,

01:48:46   but I can't, and it bums me out.

01:48:48   So I've totally railroaded this question, I apologize.

01:48:51   Marco, what do you have other than 94 terabytes of fish?

01:48:54   - Yeah, I mean, yeah, there's a lot of fish.

01:48:56   And I definitely consider my fish collection

01:49:00   to be my most important music that I have.

01:49:03   It's certainly what I listen to the most,

01:49:05   but it's not really obscure.

01:49:07   Even though allegedly no one likes them,

01:49:09   they're selling out stadiums somehow.

01:49:11   (laughing)

01:49:13   So anyways, and all of these, this is all concerts

01:49:18   that I downloaded from them, legally, officially,

01:49:21   that are almost all still available, if not all.

01:49:25   So it's not super rare.

01:49:27   I have the collection of the various older,

01:49:31   usually deceased relatives.

01:49:34   I have videos of grandparents here and there.

01:49:36   Even my dad, my dad died in 1984.

01:49:41   I was two.

01:49:42   I barely remember him.

01:49:46   And when you die in 1984, there's not a lot

01:49:49   of media captured from you.

01:49:51   I think, I mean, all I have of him is a few pictures,

01:49:57   and I think there was a two or three second,

01:50:00   he's in the background of one video.

01:50:03   This whole side of the family had one video taken

01:50:06   at some big party once, and that was it.

01:50:10   I have no idea anything about what he was like.

01:50:14   If you see somebody in a video, you could see

01:50:17   the kind of person they are, you could see

01:50:18   a little bit of their personality.

01:50:19   I don't really have that with him.

01:50:21   What I do have, though, is one tape of one concert

01:50:27   that he, on the side, he was a musician,

01:50:29   and he played guitar and sang with people.

01:50:31   And nothing like that anybody would have heard of,

01:50:35   nothing big, he just kind of played some local stuff,

01:50:37   mostly cover songs and stuff.

01:50:38   But I have one cassette tape of him singing.

01:50:42   - Oh, that's awesome.

01:50:43   - And he isn't even on every song.

01:50:44   It's him and two other guys, but he's on four songs.

01:50:47   And a while back, I finally got to digitize that

01:50:50   in a pretty reasonable way, and it's a terrible,

01:50:53   I mean, it's just like, this was not recorded

01:50:54   on professional gear, this was recorded

01:50:56   on a cassette recorder that was stuck

01:50:58   probably at the foot of the stage of the bar

01:51:01   they were singing in.

01:51:03   This was not a professional deal at all,

01:51:05   and the tape was then kept in a dusty shelf

01:51:07   for the next 20 years until I could finally

01:51:10   get it and digitize it.

01:51:11   But I have a capture of that.

01:51:15   Not even, again, not a good capture, but I have that.

01:51:18   And it's all warped and warbly and everything,

01:51:20   but I have something, and that's,

01:51:22   considering how little I have of him,

01:51:25   that's significant.

01:51:27   - That's so cool.

01:51:28   - And then besides the family and sentimental stuff

01:51:32   and the massive amount of fish, as we've just mentioned,

01:51:34   the other category of precious media files I have

01:51:38   are things that are not available at all anymore.

01:51:43   And a lot of this is just due to crappy DRM

01:51:46   or rights changes over time.

01:51:48   So one example is I have this fun crash test dummy's

01:51:52   live performance that I think, I mean, jeez,

01:51:56   I must have bought it in 2006 from the iTunes Music Store.

01:52:01   And every time the iTunes Music Store would advance

01:52:05   in some way, it would drop DRM, or it would add things

01:52:09   like iTunes Match, this album was never eligible for it.

01:52:13   And so it's still DRM'd, locked down,

01:52:17   it's no longer even in the iTunes Store to even go

01:52:20   look for it, to rebuy it or anything like that.

01:52:22   Like, you can't stream it, you can't iTunes Match it.

01:52:26   And I have, I think, like three or four albums

01:52:29   that have this kind of status in my collection

01:52:31   of just like, through whatever rights changes over time

01:52:34   have happened, no one seems to have the rights

01:52:37   to sell or give this to me anymore.

01:52:40   And so my one copy that is DRM locked

01:52:43   to iTunes's old DRM system is all I have of it.

01:52:47   So yeah, there are a few things like that

01:52:48   that are just kinda, you know, these weird little relics

01:52:53   of DRM past.

01:52:54   - Yeah, you know, it's funny you bring that up.

01:52:57   I don't think I told this story on the show,

01:52:59   maybe I didn't, I apologize, but this past Christmas,

01:53:03   I had a real hankering for my Guilty Pleasure Christmas

01:53:06   album, which was recommended to me, actually from a friend

01:53:10   that I made on Tumblr, of all places.

01:53:12   I don't know if you've ever heard of that website, Marco,

01:53:14   but it's pretty cool. - A little bit, yeah.

01:53:16   - And anyway, it's Family Force 5's Christmas Pageant,

01:53:19   which by any reasonable metric is a truly terrible

01:53:22   Christmas album, but I just have such an affinity for it

01:53:25   and I love it just so darn much.

01:53:27   And I was looking everywhere for it,

01:53:29   'cause it fell off of Spotify a few years ago,

01:53:31   it fell off of the iTunes store, if I'm not mistaken,

01:53:34   I might have that wrong, but I think that's correct.

01:53:36   And I was looking everywhere for it.

01:53:37   I ended up reaching out to the friend

01:53:39   that pointed me to this originally,

01:53:42   and asked him like, hey, would you mind just like

01:53:44   sending it to me, 'cause I couldn't buy it anywhere,

01:53:46   like even physical media, I couldn't find any,

01:53:49   it was ridiculous.

01:53:50   And as it turns out, I had a copy of it in iTunes Match.

01:53:53   So of all the places I thought to look,

01:53:55   my own frickin' music library, I didn't look in,

01:53:59   and it was there all along.

01:54:00   And I think I had bought it off iTunes

01:54:02   when it was available then, and I just never,

01:54:06   I never did anything with it, I never thought to look there,

01:54:10   and I feel so stupid because of it.

01:54:11   But anyway, that's another great example

01:54:13   of something that I can't, I mean, I could get back,

01:54:16   I'm sure, and I mean, I kinda did by asking the friend,

01:54:18   but I can't really get that back,

01:54:21   and that's another great example,

01:54:22   like your Crash Test Dummies album that I really love,

01:54:25   and it really bummed me out that I hadn't been able

01:54:27   to hear it for the last couple of years

01:54:29   since it fell off Spotify.

01:54:30   Jon, what do you have?

01:54:32   - All your stories of like digitizing like family tapes

01:54:35   and stuff and making you feel guilty,

01:54:36   'cause I have a bunch of tapes

01:54:37   that I'm supposed to be digitizing,

01:54:38   and they're just sitting in a pile somewhere

01:54:40   waiting for me to get around to it.

01:54:42   - I will say, by the way, if they're video tapes,

01:54:44   just send them to one of the dedicated services,

01:54:46   that's so much easier and better

01:54:47   than what you can do yourself.

01:54:49   - Yeah, and I've done a bunch of that stuff in the past

01:54:52   and have used services for it,

01:54:53   the ones I'm talking about now are actually just audio tapes.

01:54:55   My mother did this thing where she would like,

01:54:58   we had, you know, the cassette recorder,

01:55:01   the long skinny one with the buttons

01:55:02   on the front and the handle?

01:55:04   - Of course. - You know what

01:55:04   I'm talking about?

01:55:05   Yep, anyway, she had one of those,

01:55:07   and she would record, she would start recording

01:55:10   and just talk to us kids when we were like, you know,

01:55:12   could barely, and then just record what it was that we said,

01:55:16   and so it's a bunch of stuff like that.

01:55:18   The only one I remember,

01:55:19   'cause I'd heard a bunch of times,

01:55:20   was when she was telling my sister and I

01:55:22   that we were gonna have a new baby brother,

01:55:24   she recorded that whole conversation.

01:55:26   - Oh, that's so delighting.

01:55:27   - That is one of the tapes,

01:55:28   I have no idea what's on all the other ones,

01:55:30   but anyway, I should digitize those,

01:55:32   but that's not really what this question's about,

01:55:33   I think it's more about like the obscure media

01:55:35   as in like things that are not recordings

01:55:37   of your own family or like your family pictures,

01:55:39   which of course I have a bazillion of

01:55:41   and are very precious.

01:55:43   For obscure media, like thankfully,

01:55:47   most of the stuff that I would have answered

01:55:49   this question about is no longer that obscure.

01:55:52   For like for years and years, for example,

01:55:54   lots of like the extremely famous,

01:55:56   like the most well-regarded anime movies

01:55:59   like Miyazaki movies were actually really hard

01:56:02   to get anywhere except on a plastic disc,

01:56:04   and that was a shame.

01:56:05   Luckily, we don't live in those days anymore.

01:56:07   So back when I had all of them

01:56:10   because I had all the plastic discs

01:56:11   and I had ripped all the plastic discs,

01:56:13   it was kind of cool to have a digital collection

01:56:15   of Studio Ghibli movies, but guess what?

01:56:17   Now they're on streaming services,

01:56:19   so you don't have to worry about it

01:56:20   and it's much better for them to be on streaming services.

01:56:23   So I'm glad that those things are no longer obscure.

01:56:25   Ditto for all like the other anime series and stuff,

01:56:29   like they're so commercial that finally

01:56:31   the people who own the rights to them said,

01:56:32   "You know what, we can license these to Netflix or whatever

01:56:36   "and don't just make them available on plastic disc."

01:56:38   Same thing for like, like when I first went to college,

01:56:44   I was super excited to be in the city of Boston

01:56:45   to be able to go to for the very first time

01:56:48   a store that would sell YouTube music

01:56:51   that was not actually ever released.

01:56:54   Like it's like fish,

01:56:55   but not officially released by YouTube at all.

01:56:57   Instead, it's just recorded from the soundboard somehow

01:56:59   and smuggled onto a CD-R and you can buy it, right?

01:57:02   So I have a bunch of YouTube bootlegs,

01:57:04   which was super exciting for me to have

01:57:06   and would blow people's mind,

01:57:08   but like I could pull out different concerts

01:57:09   and different live versions of things

01:57:11   and tracks that were never released.

01:57:13   But YouTube is a pretty popular band

01:57:15   and that stuff is really easy to find now.

01:57:16   So it's not particularly obscure.

01:57:19   I think the only thing that still qualifies obscure

01:57:21   is the things that aren't super popular, right?

01:57:23   So I have a lot of video game music in my collection

01:57:27   and the video games the music is about or inspired by

01:57:30   are not rare at all, but video game music,

01:57:33   even in the big music stores,

01:57:35   even on the big streaming services,

01:57:37   you'll find 50 versions of a song,

01:57:39   but not the one version I have.

01:57:41   And I don't even know where it came from.

01:57:42   It was like an MP3 I downloaded in the Napster days

01:57:44   from some obscure thing that just went out of print

01:57:46   and no one ever bothered.

01:57:47   Like again, who knows what the rights are?

01:57:49   Maybe they didn't even license it from Nintendo

01:57:51   when they did it, or maybe it was like a college orchestra

01:57:53   that did a version of a song.

01:57:55   And that's why I still use iTunes Match

01:57:58   'cause they can't match that stuff.

01:58:00   Like, you know, I upload it to the cloud,

01:58:03   hopefully they don't destroy it.

01:58:05   And I keep, you know,

01:58:06   we talked about keeping your installation going.

01:58:08   My iTunes library installation for the most part,

01:58:11   the like the official one, if iTunes mismatched something,

01:58:16   hopefully they didn't overwrite the local files.

01:58:18   And especially for these obscure ones

01:58:19   where iTunes Match has no idea what it is,

01:58:22   those are just the original MP3 files from when I got them.

01:58:25   And as far as I'm aware, that is the only copy of that song.

01:58:28   And I have no idea where I would get a replacement for it.

01:58:31   And like, and a lot of them are like,

01:58:32   oh, I can find you 20 versions of that song.

01:58:34   You can, but not this version.

01:58:36   I don't even know where it's from

01:58:37   because the ID3 tags are screwed up

01:58:38   'cause they probably got it from LimeWire or something.

01:58:41   So those are probably my most obscure, most precious files.

01:58:44   And although, speaking of iTunes Match,

01:58:47   the other thing that is annoying me

01:58:48   is the one where iTunes does think it can match it.

01:58:51   Remember the bad old days when they're like,

01:58:52   oh yeah, I know, I totally have that song, it's real popular.

01:58:54   And it's like, no, no, you've got the radio version.

01:58:57   It's different.

01:58:57   - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:58:59   - That drives me nuts,

01:59:00   especially when I find out about it later

01:59:01   playing the song, I'm like, wait,

01:59:03   that verse doesn't sound right.

01:59:04   What version of this file is this?

01:59:06   Like, even with things like U2 album,

01:59:09   like I have all the U2 albums like on CD, right?

01:59:11   Sometimes the digital files, I don't know,

01:59:13   like it's either the single version

01:59:15   or like they did a different version in digital.

01:59:17   I'm like, that's not right.

01:59:18   I remember that happened with like Mysterious Ways

01:59:20   or something from OctoBaby.

01:59:22   And like this file, this digital store

01:59:24   sold me this copy of this file.

01:59:27   And it's not right.

01:59:28   Like they changed the timing of this verse or whatever

01:59:30   and just to make sure I wasn't crazy.

01:59:31   I'd pull out the CD and put it in

01:59:33   back when the Mac had a CD player and a CD player app.

01:59:36   And I would play it, I'm like, yeah, it's different.

01:59:37   And then I would re-rip it and put it in there

01:59:39   and then fight with iTunes Match about it.

01:59:40   So obscurity is some protection of that.

01:59:44   iTunes Match, I think is better behaved

01:59:46   about that bad stuff now.

01:59:47   But it does, speaking of obscure media files,

01:59:50   I'm glad to have, I actually am kind of glad

01:59:52   that I have all those plastic disks.

01:59:53   And unlike all my CD-Rs, I hope the actual CDs

01:59:56   that were stamped with little pits in them

01:59:58   are still readable.

01:59:59   So worst case scenario, I could spend a month

02:00:01   re-ripping everything 'cause I do actually have

02:00:03   all this crap on plastic disk.

02:00:05   Except for the obscure stuff that I downloaded

02:00:06   from LimeWire, so that needs to not be destroyed.

02:00:09   - But even all the obscure music piracy stuff

02:00:12   from those early Napster, et cetera, days,

02:00:15   I have so many great things from those days

02:00:16   that were never actually released.

02:00:18   And this is one of the problems with modern

02:00:21   streaming music environments, that you can get

02:00:25   everything that's ever been released.

02:00:27   But only everything that's ever been released.

02:00:30   And that's not everything.

02:00:32   And I have so many awesome Weezer promos and stuff

02:00:37   that were trickling around the early music piracy scene

02:00:40   like when I was in college.

02:00:42   That's how I met my wife is I offered to give her

02:00:44   a CD-R full of all the Weezer stuff I had found.

02:00:47   There were so many great gems that were passed

02:00:53   around that way.

02:00:54   And on modern streaming services, maybe half of them

02:00:58   might be there because the band actually released them.

02:01:01   But much of it is not.

02:01:03   And so if you happen to have anything like that,

02:01:04   or heck, my whole world of fish.

02:01:07   Part of the reason why I don't use Spotify

02:01:09   is that using Spotify as a live fish listener is terrible.

02:01:13   Because you have to either try to do,

02:01:16   I think they do have a feature where you can upload

02:01:18   your own stuff, but it sucks.

02:01:20   So no one really does.

02:01:22   Whereas with Apple Music, it integrates my iTunes library

02:01:26   in with the luxuries of a streaming service

02:01:29   with Cloud Sync and everything like that.

02:01:31   So that's one of the reasons why I'm an Apple Music person.

02:01:34   Even though I recognize that actually for most music

02:01:36   it's worse than Spotify.

02:01:38   But for my particular needs of having this massive

02:01:42   collection of songs that are mostly not released

02:01:44   through major labels, then that actually works

02:01:48   a lot better for me.

02:01:49   - I just remember the days, I know I've told the story

02:01:52   a thousand times, so I remember the days sitting

02:01:54   in my dorm at Virginia Tech and seeing I was downloading

02:01:56   an MP3 from somebody else at about a megabyte a second

02:01:59   and being like, "Nope, they're on campus."

02:02:00   - Yep. (laughs)

02:02:01   - That's the good stuff right there.

02:02:03   And if I remember right, it's been so damn long,

02:02:05   but if I remember right, then you could drill into

02:02:08   that particular user's library and so you could just go

02:02:11   basically leeching all the stuff you liked from them

02:02:13   because it was so darn fast 'cause they were

02:02:15   somewhere nearby.

02:02:16   Ah, that was so delightful.

02:02:19   - All right, and then finally, Anonymous writes,

02:02:21   is it rude to put another app's name in your own

02:02:23   app's search keywords?

02:02:25   Asking for a friend.

02:02:26   And I'm gonna steal your thunder, Marco.

02:02:29   I read this Ask ATP shortly after I listened to

02:02:34   Under the Radar 210, Thinking Like a Business,

02:02:36   which I thought covered these sorts of things really well.

02:02:38   But would you like to kind of give your short,

02:02:40   short version of this?

02:02:41   - So putting your apps, putting other apps' names

02:02:43   in your app's search keywords is officially against

02:02:48   the rules in the app store and it's kind of a gross

02:02:50   thing to do.

02:02:52   That being said, lots of apps do it and most of them

02:02:56   don't ever get busted for it because you as the external

02:03:01   viewer or as the owner of those apps' names,

02:03:04   you can't necessarily tell for sure what search keywords

02:03:08   another app has listed.

02:03:10   You can search for those keywords and see what turns up

02:03:12   and sometimes you can kind of deduce based on certain

02:03:16   operations like well this sure looks like it probably

02:03:18   has my app's name and its keywords or whatever.

02:03:21   But you mostly can't tell.

02:03:23   So it's mostly just left to that developer.

02:03:26   It's like between them and Apple, what's in those keywords?

02:03:28   And Apple doesn't look very consistently.

02:03:31   So the result is many apps will put stuff like that,

02:03:35   they'll put all their competitors' names in their keywords.

02:03:38   So it's not great.

02:03:40   Many of the other ones, even if they can't get in the

02:03:44   keywords, they, I'm sorry, I've been sitting on this

02:03:49   for so long.

02:03:50   I know it's not nice to talk about your competitors.

02:03:53   But I just want, just keep it between us.

02:03:56   You listeners and me here, just don't tell anybody.

02:03:59   Just if you're an Overcast user, I want you to get

02:04:02   the same joy and amusement I have gotten out of reading

02:04:06   the description for Cast Box.

02:04:09   I want you to go look up Cast Box in the app store

02:04:11   and expand that full text description and look at the

02:04:16   bottom two thirds of what's in that description

02:04:20   and how creatively they have managed to spam the names

02:04:24   of all of their competitors and every popular search term

02:04:28   somebody might be searching for in the app store

02:04:30   into their description in an incredibly,

02:04:33   like totally fraudulent way.

02:04:35   So this claims to have podcasts such as The Overcast

02:04:41   by the Seattle Times, sports podcasts such as MLB Network,

02:04:45   the Chicago Audible, the Overcast Podcast,

02:04:49   Google Cloud Platform Podcasts, the book from Stitcher,

02:04:54   Ted and Audible, Luminary from luminary.fm.

02:04:57   These are Waze and Waze Out Radio, Serious XM Entertainment.

02:05:00   These are all allegedly popular podcasts that are

02:05:04   available in this app store.

02:05:05   It's incredible.

02:05:06   - This is something.

02:05:08   Like this is so unabashedly bad.

02:05:12   It's actually somewhat beautiful in its badness.

02:05:15   Like oh my gosh this is.

02:05:17   - It makes me wonder why they didn't just say this app

02:05:19   is a lot like these other popular apps that you may have

02:05:21   heard of and then just listed the apps.

02:05:23   Because that at least would be A true, it's like those apps.

02:05:27   It's like the related and B just straightforward.

02:05:29   Like I'm sure there are lots of podcasts with the words

02:05:32   Stitcher and Overcast in the titles but you're not

02:05:35   fooling anybody with that litany of podcasts.

02:05:37   So just say it.

02:05:39   This app is a lot like these other apps you may have seen

02:05:41   colon Overcast, Stitcher, Apple Podcasts,

02:05:43   Google Podcasts, Audible.

02:05:45   - Well I suspect that App Review would stomp on them

02:05:48   for that but App Review isn't going to stomp on them

02:05:51   for this thinly veiled.

02:05:53   - But why would, because you're not putting it in the

02:05:55   keywords, you're just describing your app.

02:05:56   And in the course of describing your app you could say

02:05:59   this app is a lot like these other apps you may have

02:06:01   also heard of which I don't know.

02:06:04   Who knows what the actual rules are.

02:06:06   And you bring this up Mark and you say it's actually

02:06:08   against the App Store rules.

02:06:09   I had no idea it was against the App Store rules.

02:06:11   Now I'm super mad about, you know, so I have two tiny apps

02:06:15   on the Mac App Store that sell essentially zero copies.

02:06:18   And yet my one or two competitors slash clone apps,

02:06:23   not only do they put my app's name in their keywords

02:06:27   or description somewhere, they put my name.

02:06:29   - What? - My last name.

02:06:30   If you search for Syracuse you will find my apps

02:06:33   because I'm the developer of them and you'll also find

02:06:36   my quote unquote competitors apps.

02:06:38   And I feel like, all right, putting your other apps names

02:06:41   in your keywords or description, I thought it was

02:06:45   within the rules but if it's against the rules

02:06:47   they shouldn't do that 'cause it's against the rules.

02:06:48   But secondarily, forgetting the rules, I feel like,

02:06:52   I'll use this word again, I think the last time I used it

02:06:54   was when we were talking about Samsung, it is dishonorable.

02:06:57   Right, yeah.

02:06:58   It may not be against the rules, it may be against the world

02:07:00   it may be wise, it may not be wise, it may be smart,

02:07:02   it may not be smart but it sure as hell is dishonorable.

02:07:05   - Yeah. - Right?

02:07:06   But at least it's the app.

02:07:08   When you put the author's name in your keywords,

02:07:11   now some person who is searching, I wanna go find

02:07:14   John's apps and they type Syracuse into the search field,

02:07:17   you know they're not looking for a generic app

02:07:20   that does this function, they're looking specifically

02:07:23   for my apps and so I feel like you should not put that

02:07:26   in the keywords.

02:07:27   Like if they're just searching for my app

02:07:28   'cause they want an app that does what my app does, sure.

02:07:29   By all means, do your dishonorable thing and get your app

02:07:34   in the mix because how else would they find your app

02:07:36   'cause it's not a common function but my last name

02:07:38   being in the keywords really burns me up.

02:07:40   And like for a while I thought they weren't gonna let me

02:07:42   put my last name in my keywords but that's,

02:07:45   the handful of people, thank you very much,

02:07:46   who found and bought my apps, they probably found it

02:07:49   by searching for my last name rather than searching

02:07:51   for my poorly named actual apps so.

02:07:53   - Which are? - I wish, yeah.

02:07:55   You put the links in the show notes,

02:07:56   that's how people buy things.

02:07:57   Switch glass and front and center but just search

02:07:59   for Syracuse on the Mac App Store.

02:08:01   There's only two apps, buy 'em both, they're great.

02:08:03   - Yeah and I feel like this whole category of like

02:08:07   dishonorable but like possibly advantageous

02:08:11   app store optimization, ASO, which is a term that

02:08:14   angers me just as much as the web,

02:08:17   what was the web version again?

02:08:18   - SEO. - SEO, yeah, that's right.

02:08:20   Yeah it's like, it's the same thing as SEO.

02:08:22   It's like there's a few things that are just good ideas

02:08:24   and a bunch of weird tricks that are kind of dishonorable

02:08:27   and hacky and possibly against the rules.

02:08:29   And so you should do the things that are the good ideas

02:08:32   but the ones that are in the vague area,

02:08:34   you probably shouldn't do.

02:08:35   And this is one area where like I don't care if it gets me

02:08:39   5% more downloads or whatever.

02:08:41   I wanna know that I can sleep at night and I want there

02:08:45   to be no reason for anyone to ever look at anything

02:08:48   I'm doing and say that's unfair or that's against the rules

02:08:51   or they're getting away with something

02:08:52   they shouldn't get away with.

02:08:53   I want no reason for Apple to ever reject my app

02:08:57   for anything that's stupid little stuff like that.

02:08:59   I don't wanna give anybody any ammo to use against me.

02:09:02   Like I wanna know that I'm doing everything on the up and up

02:09:05   and not having to hide anything,

02:09:08   not hoping Apple doesn't notice something

02:09:11   or someone else doesn't notice something.

02:09:12   Stay on the honorable side of things

02:09:14   and don't do this stuff.

02:09:16   The reality is this problem though is never going to actually

02:09:20   really be solved unless Apple decides to dramatically

02:09:25   shift its enforcement abilities

02:09:27   or the sophistication of its search engine.

02:09:30   And I don't see those things happening anytime soon.

02:09:34   Anyway, thanks to our sponsors this week,

02:09:36   Squarespace, ExpressVPN and FlatFile.

02:09:39   And thanks to our members who support us directly.

02:09:41   You can join at atp.fm/join.

02:09:44   Thanks everybody, we will talk to you next week.

02:09:46   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

02:09:52   ♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

02:09:54   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

02:09:57   ♪ Oh it was accidental ♪

02:10:00   ♪ John didn't do any research ♪

02:10:02   ♪ Marco and Casey wouldn't let him ♪

02:10:05   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

02:10:06   ♪ Accidental ♪

02:10:08   ♪ Oh it was accidental ♪

02:10:09   ♪ Accidental ♪

02:10:10   ♪ And you can find the show notes at atp.fm ♪

02:10:15   ♪ And if you're into Twitter ♪

02:10:18   ♪ You can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S ♪

02:10:23   ♪ So that's Casey Liss M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M ♪

02:10:29   ♪ N-T-M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M ♪

02:10:31   ♪ S-I-R-A-C ♪

02:10:34   ♪ U-S-A-C-R-A-Q-S-A ♪

02:10:36   ♪ It's accidental ♪

02:10:38   ♪ It's accidental ♪

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02:10:43   ♪ Accidental ♪

02:10:44   ♪ Tech podcast so long ♪

02:10:48   - I have a question.

02:10:51   - Shoot.

02:10:52   No, it's not time for your question.

02:10:53   Do the one before that first.

02:10:55   - I don't wanna talk about that right now.

02:10:57   I'm very down on it.

02:10:57   - Just do it.

02:11:00   It's not gonna be long.

02:11:01   We just want, say it with me everybody, a pup date.

02:11:05   - Oh yeah.

02:11:06   - Give us a pup date.

02:11:07   What's going on with the pup?

02:11:09   - I don't wanna do a pup date.

02:11:10   I'm not feeling good about the pup right now.

02:11:14   - Oh, come on.

02:11:15   What's going on?

02:11:16   You and Faith are killing me with the puppy sadness.

02:11:17   What in the world is going on with both of you?

02:11:19   I mean, you have less of an excuse.

02:11:21   You have two kids.

02:11:22   You've done this before.

02:11:25   - Not with a freaking dog.

02:11:26   - You've been in the shit, you know, literally.

02:11:29   - Yeah, you're in it now.

02:11:31   - I mean, Faith, I can understand.

02:11:32   If you've never had a kid before and you get a puppy,

02:11:34   you may not know what you're in for,

02:11:35   but you should have known what you're in for.

02:11:36   And honestly, puppies, anyway.

02:11:38   - Oh my God, I love Faith's dog.

02:11:39   It's so cute.

02:11:40   It looks like Hop's dog when he was little.

02:11:42   - Yeah, the pup date is like, everything's fine-ish.

02:11:47   Let me put it to you this way.

02:11:48   We have started the process of talking to a dog trainer

02:11:52   that will train us how to train the dog.

02:11:55   So things were going reasonably okay,

02:11:59   and then there were some developments.

02:12:02   They were going reasonably okay

02:12:03   in the sense of housebreaking,

02:12:05   because she had been doing really well

02:12:07   with smacking some bells that we had put

02:12:11   on the door that we used to take her out.

02:12:13   I don't recall if I'd said this on the show or not.

02:12:15   And she'd been doing pretty well with that.

02:12:17   And she would maybe have like one small accident every day,

02:12:21   every other day, something like that, probably every day.

02:12:24   But for the most part, she would be asking to be let out,

02:12:26   and she would do her thing, and that was that.

02:12:29   Over the last week or so,

02:12:32   she seems to be less interested

02:12:34   in bothering to go outside to pee.

02:12:37   Thankfully, we have not yet had a number two inside,

02:12:41   but she looked at me as she was in the hallway,

02:12:46   nowhere near the door where we go out,

02:12:48   and I was standing next to her.

02:12:49   And she looked at me, squatted down,

02:12:50   and basically with her face,

02:12:54   you could tell she was just thinking to herself,

02:12:56   "Hey, now what, asshole?

02:12:57   "What you got?"

02:12:58   - That's not what she's thinking.

02:12:59   Stop personifying dogs.

02:13:01   I guarantee you that's not what the dog was thinking.

02:13:03   Dogs are not little people.

02:13:05   They're not taking revenge on you.

02:13:06   They're just like little babies.

02:13:08   - Like intellectually, I know that.

02:13:10   - Chances are, usually when you're in this kind of

02:13:14   adolescent phase of housebreaking,

02:13:17   most accidents are not the result of willful disobedience.

02:13:20   They're usually the result of confusion.

02:13:22   - I mean, it's not like you have a cat.

02:13:23   - No, yeah, no.

02:13:24   Cats would do it willfully, yeah, yeah.

02:13:26   - Cats will poop in your shoes 'cause they're mad at you.

02:13:28   - Yeah, they're the worst.

02:13:29   But chances are she probably is simply just confused

02:13:34   about where the right places and times are to go.

02:13:36   - But she shouldn't be because she's so clearly got it.

02:13:39   - Or she's in distress.

02:13:41   And the Belle thing, I'm gonna caution you,

02:13:43   there's a lot of anti-Belle wisdom out there,

02:13:46   and I mostly agree with it.

02:13:48   But there's no super secret trick to training.

02:13:52   It's all about consistency above and beyond the level

02:13:55   that a human should be expected to be consistent.

02:13:57   Like that's what it is.

02:13:58   That is the work of house training your dog

02:14:02   is relentless dispassionate consistency

02:14:07   to even more of a degree than you had to do with your kids

02:14:09   'cause your kids are smarter than the dog, right?

02:14:11   And so they have a little brain

02:14:12   and you can eventually communicate with them and reason.

02:14:15   And that will never happen with a dog.

02:14:16   You will never learn to talk, right?

02:14:18   So you always have to operate at this level where it's like,

02:14:21   but I don't wanna take it out now.

02:14:23   And it just went out and doesn't really need to go out.

02:14:25   And you need to become like hyper attuned

02:14:27   to the dog's needs and schedule,

02:14:29   subsuming everything that you wanna do in your life

02:14:32   to an even greater degree than you did with your kids

02:14:35   to super consistently do this thing

02:14:38   and power through the years of the dog's life

02:14:41   when it actually can't physically control this

02:14:43   to the degree that you want to get to the other side of it,

02:14:46   which honestly isn't that far.

02:14:47   It's like 18 months or 12 months or whatever.

02:14:50   - Oh God, don't tell me that.

02:14:51   - Probably less.

02:14:52   You will get to the other side of it.

02:14:54   If you've been super consistent during that time,

02:14:56   you will get to the other side

02:14:57   and you're set for the rest of that dog's life.

02:14:59   - Well, and so to that end,

02:15:01   like there was definitely an accident that was my fault.

02:15:04   Like she had just taken a big nap.

02:15:06   - They're all your fault.

02:15:06   - Well, okay, no, no, that's fair.

02:15:08   That's fair, that's fair.

02:15:09   But you know that.

02:15:10   - They're at least all your problem.

02:15:11   They're also all your fault 'cause it's a dog.

02:15:14   - No, you're right.

02:15:14   I think they are all my fault,

02:15:16   but like one particularly egregious time

02:15:18   when she had just taken like a big nap

02:15:20   and she had woken up and I was in the middle of something,

02:15:23   Aaron was in the middle of something

02:15:24   and I thought to myself,

02:15:25   you should probably take her out and I didn't.

02:15:27   - Every time I wake up from a nap, yep.

02:15:29   Wake up or eat.

02:15:30   - Yep, and so I didn't and then she rang the bell

02:15:33   and then I went to walk over to her to take her out

02:15:37   and in the time I was walking the 10 paces over to her,

02:15:41   she squatted and peed everywhere.

02:15:43   And that was clearly my fault.

02:15:44   Again, like yes, I know everything's my fault,

02:15:46   but like particularly that time

02:15:47   because she clearly should have gone out immediately

02:15:50   and I had waited a few minutes to try to test like,

02:15:53   oh, let's see if she'll tell us, which to her credit,

02:15:55   she did, but she didn't do it with enough time

02:15:57   to actually get her out the door.

02:15:59   - No, don't test your dog and say,

02:16:00   let's see if she'll tell us.

02:16:01   It's not, that is not what you wanna be doing.

02:16:05   It's just relentless consistency of serving the dog's needs,

02:16:08   rewarding for doing what you want,

02:16:09   which is they go outside, they get a treat,

02:16:11   they come back in just over and over again.

02:16:14   It feels maddening and it feels like

02:16:16   you're living your life for your dog.

02:16:18   And like I said, even more of a way

02:16:21   than you did with your infant, which seems impossible

02:16:23   if you have kids, it's like,

02:16:24   how could I ever pay more attention?

02:16:26   But it's more of like a mindless,

02:16:28   just serving the needs of the dog

02:16:30   'cause the dog cannot serve its own needs.

02:16:32   And the reward of that relentless consistency is

02:16:35   the dog was all set.

02:16:36   The reward for doing it with your kids

02:16:37   is they become rebellious teenagers and hate you.

02:16:39   So that's great, but they do eventually leave the house

02:16:43   and get a job and stuff.

02:16:44   So it's pluses and minuses.

02:16:45   - Yeah, and remember, at the end of the day,

02:16:47   dogs are tubes.

02:16:48   Stuff goes in one end,

02:16:51   it eventually comes out the other end.

02:16:53   There's only so much control that they have

02:16:55   over that process, especially when they're this young.

02:16:57   - 'Cause they don't choose when they eat, right?

02:16:59   And they can't choose how well they can hold it in

02:17:02   when they're very young pups.

02:17:03   So you just have to be taking them out way more

02:17:06   than you think and rewarding when they do it

02:17:07   and just consistency.

02:17:10   And you're gonna mess up a few times.

02:17:11   It's not like if you mess up once you've ruined it, right?

02:17:13   That's what I wanna say to people.

02:17:14   They're like, oh, it's just like,

02:17:15   if you have like one accident a day is too much,

02:17:17   like you should work on that.

02:17:18   But if you, like, I remember I put in my Google Calendar,

02:17:21   but I could go back and find it.

02:17:23   I would put pee events in my Google Calendar

02:17:25   at a certain point, because when I was,

02:17:27   yeah, you know, house training Daisy,

02:17:29   because I was at the point where I'm like,

02:17:31   we've been doing this, you know, I was on sabbatical, right?

02:17:33   I've been dedicated, I was dedicating my whole life

02:17:34   to this dog.

02:17:35   I feel like we should be getting on the other side of it.

02:17:37   And it would see, we'd go days and days

02:17:39   and everything would be fine.

02:17:40   And then we'd have a pee accident.

02:17:41   And it was so disheartening.

02:17:42   And so I started putting events in my calendar

02:17:44   just so I could see is the gap

02:17:46   between pee accidents increasing?

02:17:48   And guess what?

02:17:49   Eventually there was just no more pee accidents ever.

02:17:51   And that was like years ago, right?

02:17:52   So you will get on the other side of it,

02:17:54   but it's disheartening when it's just consistency,

02:17:57   learning what to do.

02:17:58   Don't do things like testing the dog and like,

02:18:01   let's see if they'll tell me how to get out.

02:18:03   Or, you know, the dog needs to learn how to hold it.

02:18:05   These are not good strategies.

02:18:07   No.

02:18:08   - It's not, I shouldn't have phrased it that way.

02:18:10   What I was trying to figure out is like,

02:18:13   is she putting this together at all?

02:18:16   And because I--

02:18:18   - Yeah, that's not how the dogs work though.

02:18:19   It's not, there's not gonna be a light bulb moment

02:18:21   where the dog just suddenly figures it out.

02:18:23   It's just gonna be, it's just routine.

02:18:25   It's just, they're just little love machines.

02:18:28   They just do a thing and you just gonna,

02:18:30   you're gonna program them through repetition.

02:18:31   I'm trying to think of like computer stuff

02:18:33   where you would like program it by repeatedly doing a thing

02:18:35   and like wearing a groove in.

02:18:37   That's what you're doing with your dog.

02:18:38   - Yeah, and so like that,

02:18:40   like the accidents are disheartening.

02:18:41   And like Aaron said to me just before I came up to record,

02:18:44   the thing that's frustrating is,

02:18:46   I felt like we were making progress

02:18:48   and then we've either plateaued or regressed

02:18:50   and that's extremely disheartening.

02:18:52   And I probably have unfair and unreasonable expectations,

02:18:57   which is part of the reason why we are trying

02:18:59   to engage a dog trainer,

02:19:01   which by that I really mean a people trainer.

02:19:03   But nevertheless, it's very disheartening

02:19:06   when I feel like we were making some pretty solid progress

02:19:09   and then all of a sudden we've just hit a wall

02:19:12   and that's too bad.

02:19:13   But the real issue that's really starting to frustrate me

02:19:17   is that it's like when the kid starts crawling

02:19:21   and suddenly the world is bigger and that's bad

02:19:26   because there's more world to screw up.

02:19:29   Penny has very consistently learned

02:19:32   that she's capable of jumping on the couches

02:19:34   and we don't want her to for various reasons.

02:19:36   And yes, I know we're gonna lose that fight,

02:19:38   but she knows full well she's not supposed to be up there.

02:19:42   I'm absolutely convinced she knows

02:19:43   she's not supposed to be up there, but she doesn't anyway.

02:19:46   Which in and of itself is okay, but like, Aaron--

02:19:49   - You think she knows she's not supposed to be up there,

02:19:51   but what she probably knows is,

02:19:52   hey, if you wanna play a fun game where the human chases you,

02:19:54   a good way to get that started is to jump on the couch.

02:19:57   That's more likely what the dog knows than,

02:19:59   oh, I'm not supposed to be on the couch

02:20:01   because the concept of a place where you're not supposed to go

02:20:04   is not communicated in the ways you think it is to a dog.

02:20:07   Also, there's the overriding factor,

02:20:10   like maybe she knows that she's not really supposed

02:20:13   to be up there, but then you sit down on the couch

02:20:15   and she really wants to be with you.

02:20:17   - And I totally understand that,

02:20:18   but we clearly prevent her from getting up there

02:20:21   when we're up there and she loves to be up there

02:20:23   when we are not there.

02:20:24   - Couches are comfortable.

02:20:26   - Yeah, they really are. - Yeah, they're comfortable.

02:20:28   And John, I think your point about getting attention

02:20:30   is possibly fair, but we're certainly not showering

02:20:33   good attention on her, not that we're cursing her out

02:20:35   or anything, but it's clear that this is now,

02:20:38   well, it's clear to a fellow human it's not what we want.

02:20:41   Perhaps it's not clear to her.

02:20:43   Again, engaging a dog trainer, by that.

02:20:45   I mean, people train her.

02:20:46   - The clarity of communication is so important

02:20:48   'cause you might be thinking that you are communicating,

02:20:52   like if she jumps on the couch and you shoo her off,

02:20:55   you might think she's learning

02:20:56   you aren't allowed on this couch.

02:20:58   What she might actually be interpreting from that is,

02:21:01   they're mad at me for some reason.

02:21:03   Let me jump up here and visit them and see if I can,

02:21:05   like I wanna be with them, let me jump up there,

02:21:06   oh, they're mad at me for some reason.

02:21:08   - Or more likely, this is the best game ever,

02:21:10   I wanna play this as much as I possibly can.

02:21:12   - Right, exactly.

02:21:13   - Because puppies love to play and so that's how,

02:21:17   it's distinguished from playing in your mind,

02:21:19   is it distinguished from playing in her mind?

02:21:20   And on the dog trainer thing,

02:21:23   I never actually engaged a dog trainer,

02:21:24   but we did a lot of research about it,

02:21:26   just to tell you, it's kind of like,

02:21:28   most of your kids seem like they were better

02:21:30   than my pale children, but at a certain point,

02:21:34   you start being like, is there something wrong

02:21:36   with my child/dog, I need to engage a professional,

02:21:39   and we did so much research, or I did so much research

02:21:41   on dog trainers, 'cause we're in the exact same dark hole

02:21:44   that you're in, it's like, it seems like it's never

02:21:45   gonna work and I'm out of doing wrong.

02:21:47   - Yep, that's me.

02:21:48   - And it's hard to find good dog trainers,

02:21:51   because especially with dogs, also with children,

02:21:53   but especially with dogs, you will find lots of dog trainers

02:21:55   that tell you that you essentially need to punish your dog

02:21:58   and physically abuse them to maintain dominance

02:22:00   and all this other crap, and basically,

02:22:02   it's actually hard to find dog trainers

02:22:04   that don't have some aspect of that.

02:22:06   So if your dog trainer tells you at any point

02:22:08   to start choking your dog with something,

02:22:10   get a different dog trainer.

02:22:11   - No, that's fair.

02:22:12   - Or it is a weird noise thing,

02:22:14   there's a whole lot of bad advice out there.

02:22:16   - Yeah, anything that punishes the dog

02:22:19   will not work out for you.

02:22:21   I sent you the YouTube video, Kiko Pup,

02:22:24   that lady does some great dog training stuff,

02:22:27   and there's a bunch of other people who do,

02:22:29   I forget what they call it, but positive only training

02:22:31   or whatever, I always show people Kiko Pup,

02:22:33   because her dogs essentially will make tea for you.

02:22:36   Like they are the best trained dogs you've ever seen

02:22:38   in your entire life, the things she has,

02:22:39   she does them in competitions and everything.

02:22:42   You have, these dogs do things that boggle your mind,

02:22:45   and she did every ounce of that training

02:22:47   without punishing any of those dogs once,

02:22:49   and she's got dogs of all shapes and sizes

02:22:51   and all different breeds, so anyone thinks like,

02:22:53   well, if you really wanna train your dog to behave,

02:22:55   you're gonna have to choke it out sometimes.

02:22:58   Like no, you actually don't, and let me show you

02:23:00   the best trained dogs, the best trained five dogs

02:23:02   you've ever seen in your entire life doing things

02:23:04   that will make your brain explode, like sitting quietly

02:23:08   three feet from the side while another dog is trained

02:23:11   and given treats, and they don't move an inch

02:23:13   the entire time and standing up on their hind legs

02:23:15   and twirling and circling and going between people's legs.

02:23:18   And if that's all possible, with everything from a Chihuahua

02:23:21   to a sheep dog, without any kind of

02:23:25   punishing the dog whatsoever, there is no excuse whatsoever

02:23:28   except for machismo and toxic masculinity

02:23:32   and just general venting of frustration

02:23:34   for you to engage in any kind of training that involves

02:23:37   menacing your dog or physically dominating your dog

02:23:40   or choking your dog or playing a loud sound

02:23:42   that your dog hates or doing anything like that.

02:23:44   Just say no.

02:23:46   (beeping)