416: I Will Take Away Those Kudos


00:00:00   John, I have a question for you. When you were perhaps younger, uh,

00:00:05   or just generally in the days before,

00:00:08   did you have any strong corporate allegiances?

00:00:12   So what got me thinking about this was obviously, you know,

00:00:15   I have a strong affinity for Apple, even though sometimes it may not sound like it,

00:00:18   but I was thinking, you know,

00:00:20   there was a time when I felt probably as strongly in favor of BMW as I do about

00:00:25   Apple, which now sounds bananas,

00:00:28   but there was a time when I was extremely enthusiastic about BMW, you know,

00:00:33   Marco and I flew halfway across the planet in order to visit more BMW.

00:00:38   Um, and I was also thinking about like when I was a kid,

00:00:42   I had very little actual possessions, but a strong affinity for Sony stuff.

00:00:47   And you know, we've all talked about,

00:00:48   especially us old men about how Sony used to be great, blah, blah, blah.

00:00:51   And actually, quite suddenly we're going to be talking about Sony again later,

00:00:53   but I was curious for both of you, but particularly John,

00:00:57   were there any other corporations that you felt like you did or perhaps still do

00:01:02   have a really strong like affinity for?

00:01:04   Sure. And it's, I mean, like,

00:01:07   just like with you and BMW and all the things we're talking about,

00:01:09   it comes down to the products, like unlike sports teams,

00:01:12   which like you're born into, right. Or whatever, like, um,

00:01:16   or just geography, um, we're for,

00:01:20   for like tech products or even any kind of products it's based, uh,

00:01:24   companies it's based on the products they put out.

00:01:25   So I also had an affinity for Sony stuff that was based on both the Walkman,

00:01:30   which was a new piece of technology when I was a kid. And that really, you know,

00:01:34   knocked my socks off. And a little bit later, uh,

00:01:37   the trinitron display because I always like good display technology and the

00:01:41   trinitron only curved in one direction instead of two. And that's, you know,

00:01:44   50% to being entirely flat. And then of course, Apple used trinitron monitors.

00:01:49   So there was a connection there. Nintendo. Why? Oh, the NES,

00:01:52   the NES was another thing that came out in my day, right?

00:01:55   Because of the NES I became devoted to Nintendo and the games they put out,

00:02:00   you know,

00:02:00   a legend of Zelda and Mario that made me devoted to Nintendo.

00:02:03   So every time Nintendo did a thing, I was into it. Um,

00:02:06   those are probably the big ones. Maybe you could say like Ferrari and Porsche,

00:02:11   but like, I only saw pictures of those things. So, you know,

00:02:14   who really knows what they're actually like. Um, but yeah,

00:02:17   I think it's the same amount of, uh, I wouldn't call it corporate allegiance.

00:02:20   I would call it, um,

00:02:23   identifying and being interested in the output of companies that were doing

00:02:27   things that I found cool.

00:02:29   What about OXO? Like as in a lot of your kitchen stuff, OXO?

00:02:33   Yeah. I mean like that's, I, I had on,

00:02:36   it's not quite the same thing as those other companies because a lot of OXO

00:02:40   stuff is hit or miss,

00:02:42   but they're in my group of brands that I trust. Like all clad is another one.

00:02:47   Like you kind of know what you're getting with them.

00:02:49   I bought enough of their products that I have some confidence in what they're

00:02:51   going to give. But the,

00:02:53   those things don't go into the top tiers because it's,

00:02:56   I feel like their taste is not entirely aligned with mine or not,

00:03:01   not aligned with mine as much as say a Nintendo or an Apple is.

00:03:04   So I really have to just sort of pick and choose from those companies. So yeah,

00:03:08   I like them,

00:03:09   but sometimes the things they make don't agree with my taste.

00:03:13   That's fair. Marco, other than your incorrect opinions about Sega, uh,

00:03:18   anything for you? I was just thinking about saying when your, but yeah,

00:03:23   I don't know. I mean, you know, like when I was, when I was young, like, you know,

00:03:26   we didn't have a lot of money and I didn't have like the,

00:03:30   the breadth of knowledge or product availability to me or internet searching.

00:03:35   So like I only knew what we had and all we had,

00:03:40   like, you know, we'd get like one of everything. So like, you know,

00:03:42   we'd have one TV, one VCR, you know, I,

00:03:45   we had one game system, the Sega Genesis for most of my childhood. So like,

00:03:49   it wasn't, it wouldn't,

00:03:52   it wouldn't be so much like an allegiance as like,

00:03:54   this is just the only one that we have.

00:03:56   So it's the only one that I have any experience. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

00:03:59   So yeah, I don't know. I mean like we had Toyota cars because we bought them and

00:04:05   drove them forever. Oh yeah. I should've listed Honda,

00:04:08   which was later in life thing at the first Honda that my family had was,

00:04:11   I think it was like a teenager by then, but obviously very quickly,

00:04:15   I developed an affinity for that brand and this is the only car I've ever bought.

00:04:19   It's just a series of Honda. So put that in the loyalty column for sure.

00:04:24   It's funny to me that early on,

00:04:27   before I put something to the order of 10 or $15,000 worth of repairs into my

00:04:30   three series, I would have said early on that, you know,

00:04:34   money not withstanding because it's a big issue with the BMW.

00:04:37   I would probably drive BMWs forever more because when my 335 worked, holy crap,

00:04:42   that was a great car. It really, really, really was.

00:04:45   But the problem is never worked.

00:04:46   And coincidentally I ran out to do some takeout for dinner.

00:04:50   And when I was out, I noticed coming,

00:04:55   coming out onto the road I was driving on, you know, so perpendicular to me,

00:04:58   was one of the new either three or four series with the

00:05:03   humongous,

00:05:05   ridiculous kidneys that we had talked about many shows ago,

00:05:08   ago now.

00:05:10   And that might be the first time I've seen them in person and they are uglier in

00:05:13   person than I think they are on paper.

00:05:15   And that is saying something because they are truly awful on paper.

00:05:18   That's amazing.

00:05:20   It's so bad. So yeah, it just, you know, fast forward a couple of years and,

00:05:23   and genuinely, I mean,

00:05:24   I could not say enough good things about the trip that me,

00:05:27   Aaron Marco and Tiff went on and about, you know,

00:05:30   going to BMW Welt and going to do European delivery and taking this,

00:05:35   you know,

00:05:37   it'd be even just being a passenger and Marco's ridiculous BMW and taking it

00:05:41   around the Nurburgring on like April 4th or something when there was

00:05:43   snow on the sides of the road. Like everything about that trip,

00:05:46   really on paper was kind of dumb and wrong and bad, but I loved it.

00:05:50   I loved every moment of it. And,

00:05:52   and to go from that to me saying today,

00:05:56   it is unlikely that I would ever really even strongly consider a BMW again is

00:06:01   surprising. And I feel similarly, although not exactly the same with Sony,

00:06:05   you know, like I loved Sony so much as a kid and now I'm just like, eh,

00:06:10   it's a thing. Maybe I'd get a camera sometime. Maybe. And again,

00:06:12   we'll be talking about this later, but, um, I don't know, it's just wild to me.

00:06:16   How, how such a strong allegiance can just evaporate into thin air like that.

00:06:21   Just wait until Declan wants a PlayStation.

00:06:22   I think a lot of it was like, you know, in, in that era of like, you know,

00:06:27   eighties, nineties like that, the time that we grew up, uh, well the Casey and I

00:06:31   grew up,

00:06:32   things were a lot less based on software and,

00:06:38   and ecosystems and services and everything. And they're,

00:06:41   they were a lot more just like which of these like consumer electronic companies

00:06:45   can make really nice hardware.

00:06:46   And the hardware was could be really delightful and really well made.

00:06:49   And it was because there was not much software dependence at the time and for

00:06:54   almost any category of device,

00:06:57   I think more companies were able to become interns in those fields.

00:07:01   So like you had more companies being able to make really good TVs and really

00:07:05   good VCRs and really good game systems and everything. And,

00:07:08   and now I feel like not only do we use fewer things like human back then,

00:07:12   you might've had, you know,

00:07:14   you might've had like a an early computer from whoever made that. Um, you,

00:07:17   you definitely would've had like, you know, TV, VCR, um,

00:07:21   later on DVD player. Um, you would've had a game systems,

00:07:25   at least one usually growing up. And you also would've had things like,

00:07:29   you know, a disc man as, as we said, or, or a walkman.

00:07:32   Maybe later in the later, like in the late nineties, you would've might've,

00:07:35   might've had like a PDA or something like you would've had more things.

00:07:39   Whereas now a lot of those hardware products are not necessary anymore.

00:07:44   Like now it's the, to make,

00:07:47   to get hardware that we actually need or want to use.

00:07:50   It basically has to be like either a phone or a computer and like that's about

00:07:55   it.

00:07:55   And not a lot of people are able to make competitive phones or computers these

00:07:59   days because they're so complex and so reliant on software and ecosystems.

00:08:05   Yeah. And so like you don't, so it's harder for somebody like a Sony,

00:08:07   for example, Sony has always been miserably bad at software, uh,

00:08:12   but really pretty good at the hardware side. Um,

00:08:14   and now Sony like the direction the world has moved with the exception of things

00:08:19   like the camera division, but like the rest of Sony, you know, it's,

00:08:24   the world has moved in places that Sony mostly can't do very well.

00:08:28   Like now, like, you know,

00:08:30   Sony does not have a PC or mobile operating system.

00:08:33   They don't make most of the hardware that would be in a PC or mobile,

00:08:38   although with the exception of they do make a ton of the camera sensors, uh,

00:08:42   which is pretty good. That's a pretty good business to be in.

00:08:45   The camera modules on smartphones, that's a pretty good business. Um,

00:08:48   but like I feel like there's less room for somebody like,

00:08:53   like nineties Sony, like just make a really nice VCR.

00:08:56   Like there's less room for that in what we use today because what we use today

00:09:01   requires massive investments and massive established ecosystems in areas Sony has

00:09:06   not ever been really able to do. So I do kind of miss that. Like,

00:09:11   like a couple of years back, um,

00:09:13   I got this little tiny Sony audio recorder and it was about the size of an iPod

00:09:18   shuffle and it was this full blown audio recorder.

00:09:22   It was so delightful and I use it like three or four times maybe and I just

00:09:29   haven't used it and I looked for it the other day and I couldn't find it.

00:09:31   But like it was so delightful to have this thing and hold it in my hands.

00:09:35   It's like this is a modern Sony device that had, you know,

00:09:39   it looked and it looked just like an alternative device. You know,

00:09:41   this black plastic casing, really well made big buttons,

00:09:45   the nice big record button, nice big display. We had had like a,

00:09:48   like a black and white OLED for the displays. What looked really nice.

00:09:52   Like it was a beautiful little device,

00:09:54   but I just don't have a ton of use for this kind of thing anymore.

00:09:57   Cause so often like, you know,

00:10:00   either our phones can do that and we don't need to do it anymore. Or, you know,

00:10:03   things about things that are about physical media,

00:10:05   we almost never need anymore. Um, so I don't know, it,

00:10:08   it seems like there's a whole,

00:10:10   there's been whole massive categories of things that we could become big fans of

00:10:15   or really, you know,

00:10:17   respect certain companies for and that whole category doesn't really exist

00:10:20   anymore.

00:10:20   Or it only exists in very specialized areas and like only pros in a certain area

00:10:25   needed.

00:10:27   Speaking about data stuff, Tivo,

00:10:28   another brand that I had tremendous loyalty for until the bad times.

00:10:33   All right, we should start with some followup and we have some neutral followup.

00:10:42   I am sorry if this is not your cup of tea. This is why chapters exist.

00:10:45   Thank you, Germany. Uh, to begin,

00:10:47   somebody on Twitter found that there were official renders of the model S and

00:10:52   model X, uh,

00:10:54   interiors with a traditional round barbarically ancient and yet so delightful

00:10:59   steering wheel. And I was extremely pleased to see this and I hope it's the thing.

00:11:03   I don't know if it's renders. It might be a photo presumably the countries that,

00:11:07   where it's illegal to, to have the, the steering yoke,

00:11:11   the non wheel wheel.

00:11:13   Apparently that's against certain laws in certain places.

00:11:16   So they're probably going to have to make a round wheel anyway.

00:11:18   And this was an official picture on their site. So there it is. It's a wheel. Um,

00:11:23   and if I would say because Tesla makes that part,

00:11:25   it would be easier for people to buy the aftermarket.

00:11:27   But then I remember the Tesla doesn't exactly make it easy to buy parts period.

00:11:31   Yeah. My, my best guess is that if they don't enable that wheel option for

00:11:36   everybody, you know, upfront, I think they will probably enable it at some point,

00:11:40   like maybe within the next year.

00:11:42   I think enough people will want it and they'll lose enough sales to not having

00:11:46   it, that they'll probably relent and start offering that as an option.

00:11:49   But I could be wrong. I mean they never offered function to door handles.

00:11:52   Yeah, exactly. Then fix those for all those years. Even this gen, um,

00:11:56   speaking of controls, uh,

00:11:58   at least one person on Twitter said that the touch controls on the wheel are

00:12:02   supposedly forced touch, like you actually have to press them hard. So, um,

00:12:07   I speculated about that last show.

00:12:09   I'm not sure where this information is coming from.

00:12:10   That would make a little bit more sense than them being capacitive,

00:12:15   but it doesn't make any sense to me why they are apparently on a

00:12:20   completely smooth featureless service without any kind of outline or indent or

00:12:25   bulge to indicate where the things are.

00:12:27   Yeah. Like if I, if I want to like dust off my steering wheel,

00:12:30   am I going to accidentally honk the horn?

00:12:31   Not, not unless you press.

00:12:33   But the reason I think it's weird that it's just a smooth surface is you'll just

00:12:36   have to memorize which parts of the smooth surface to press.

00:12:39   It's like the Apple TV remote all over again. Right. Um,

00:12:42   and if you don't know exactly where it is and you just put your finger onto this

00:12:45   completely smooth surface and you press real hard and your blinker doesn't turn

00:12:48   on, then you just move your thumb like a millimeter and press and move your thumb

00:12:51   and millimeter and press. Then you look down to see the little glowing symbol.

00:12:54   Oh, that's where it is. Like this is just,

00:12:55   there is no scenario in which a smooth surface with places on it that you can

00:13:01   press is better than a stock for turn signals. And I don't understand,

00:13:05   understand why they're doing this, but at least supposedly they're not capacitive,

00:13:09   which would be the real worst case.

00:13:10   As a model S driver for like the last six years or whatever it's been,

00:13:14   I've never once thought this car has too many physical controls.

00:13:19   Like I've always thought it had like either exactly the right amount or slightly

00:13:23   too few, but very close to the right amount.

00:13:24   Like I'm very happy with the physical controls with what is physical and what is

00:13:28   on the touch screen. I'm very happy with that overall.

00:13:30   And so for them to go mess with it, I'm again, this might be really cool,

00:13:34   but I I'm wary, especially because of this next point. Right.

00:13:39   So Elon tweeted no more stocks.

00:13:41   The car will guess drive direction based on what obstacles it sees context in

00:13:45   the navigation map you can override on the touch screen.

00:13:48   So let me back up a half step. So in order to control,

00:13:51   if you're going in forward or reverse, that's a stock on the model S right,

00:13:56   Marco, the way it is right side. Yep. And you know,

00:13:59   that's the way it is on some like column shifted, you know, traditional cars,

00:14:03   but apparently the model S and the model X will just figure it out by

00:14:08   magic. And that's how it's going to work. Or if you don't trust it,

00:14:11   you can use the touch screen. All right. So here's the thing.

00:14:14   I have a group chat with a couple of friends of mine that we talk nominally about

00:14:18   cars pretty much all day, every day. And it's not John and Marco surprisingly.

00:14:22   But anyways, one of the things we were talking about just earlier today is,

00:14:25   you know,

00:14:26   whether or not it's appropriate for cars to be putting so much stuff behind a

00:14:31   touch screen. And because we're all old, we of course say, no, not,

00:14:36   not everything should be back there. And you know,

00:14:38   I can make arguments about what could and could not be in a touch screen.

00:14:41   So for example, Aaron, Aaron's Volvo to adjust the temperature,

00:14:44   that's on the touch screen. Now they do it in the most convenient,

00:14:47   most reasonable way possible,

00:14:49   but I would still prefer to have a little dial that you could,

00:14:51   that you could spin or what have you to put gear selection on the touch screen.

00:14:56   That is well, either I'm extremely old, which I guess is true,

00:15:02   or that is the most preposterous, ridiculous,

00:15:05   like you want to talk about courage. That's fricking courage.

00:15:10   Like come on. No, just no.

00:15:12   Well, it's not,

00:15:13   it's not that it's putting it on the touch screen because if that's what we were

00:15:16   talking about, that would be one thing and we can have that conversation.

00:15:19   But as you just read, the key part of this is, and it's a lot like the, uh,

00:15:23   the driver assistance things that the car does for you to try to help you drive

00:15:27   or the, you know, the autopilot or whatever is that it chooses for you.

00:15:32   Like, so if it was on a touch screen, it would be like, well, you must,

00:15:35   you must go into drive before you can drive. But in this car,

00:15:38   according to Elon's description, no, you don't have to go to the touch screen.

00:15:41   And plus drive,

00:15:41   you just need to get into the car and the car will pick based on, you know,

00:15:45   context clues, whether you want to go forward or backwards.

00:15:49   Now, if the car has made the wrong choice, of course,

00:15:52   you can use the touch screen to change the gear.

00:15:54   But the thing is you don't have to use the touch screen if the car guessed right.

00:15:58   And this is exactly like the autopilot, uh, you know,

00:16:01   anti-pattern where if the car guesses right enough,

00:16:05   if autopilot is good enough to keep you in the lane,

00:16:08   99.9% of the time,

00:16:10   it will form a habit where you just get in your car and press the accelerator

00:16:14   pedal because, Hey, the car just picks for you.

00:16:17   I don't have to steer when I'm in the lane because the thing stays in the lane

00:16:20   for me, except for that one time. It doesn't. And then I die. Well,

00:16:23   you're supposed to be ready to take over any second.

00:16:25   Have you departed from lane? Well,

00:16:27   you're always supposed to check the touch screen to see if it's in the right

00:16:29   gear. It says right here in the manual. Oh yeah,

00:16:31   we'll pick the right gear for you. But if we pick the wrong one,

00:16:33   just use the touch screen, but it's training you not to do that. So, I mean,

00:16:38   this is less, much less dangerous.

00:16:39   Cause what's going to happen is people are going to get in fender benders,

00:16:41   right?

00:16:41   Where they're just going to assume the car has correctly picked forward or

00:16:44   reverse or whichever gear they think it's supposed to be.

00:16:46   And they're going to have to accelerator and bump into a wall,

00:16:48   bump into a cone, bump onto a tree,

00:16:50   whatever it is they're going to bump into. If the car guesses incorrectly,

00:16:54   the car will have long since trained you to never bother overriding it because

00:16:58   the guess is right almost every single time.

00:17:00   So this is another example of a non human centered feature.

00:17:03   It's not, you know, the touch screen having the gear selector on the touch screen.

00:17:07   That's one thing.

00:17:08   And I think that's an interesting evolution of gear selection because in,

00:17:12   in the olden days, Casey mentioned column shifting.

00:17:15   There was a physical connection between either the column or a big lever to

00:17:20   trigger something in your transmit,

00:17:21   your automatic transmission to go into the right gear,

00:17:23   setting aside manuals for a second. Right.

00:17:25   And over the years as transmissions have gotten more and more complicated,

00:17:28   they've kept in a skeuomorphic way, again, a truly skeuomorphic way,

00:17:32   a big giant lever in a car that you can move from PR and DL,

00:17:37   you know,

00:17:37   like just a huge lever as if you're still moving mechanically something inside

00:17:42   the transmission. When in reality, over the past, you know,

00:17:44   the recent several years,

00:17:45   what you're actually doing is moving a giant electronic switch.

00:17:48   That's telling the transmission to change gears.

00:17:50   More recently in like the past couple car generations,

00:17:54   lots of car manufacturers have switched from having a gigantic handle that takes

00:17:57   up the entire center console to having buttons. In fact, most Hondas do this now.

00:18:01   And I started this, you know, maybe five, seven years ago,

00:18:05   but a lot of cars have buttons for park reverse neutral,

00:18:09   including clever buttons,

00:18:10   like where reverse you pull up on the button like a window lifter and you know,

00:18:13   drive you press down to try to, you know, sort of make it have, make it,

00:18:18   make it have more physical sense about whether you're going forward or backwards

00:18:20   because there's no need for a lever because all you're doing is activating a

00:18:24   button. So they had physical buttons,

00:18:25   touchscreen buttons are just an evolution of that.

00:18:28   And that's where you get into the debate. We've had all the time,

00:18:30   physical buttons versus touchscreen buttons,

00:18:31   but it's still, it's just a button.

00:18:32   It's a recognition of the fact that you're not actually shifting a transmission

00:18:36   into gear by moving a lever that presses a thing that moves a physical male gear

00:18:41   to mesh with a different gear. You know, you're not doing that.

00:18:43   You're doing an electronic switch, right?

00:18:46   So I think touchscreen for gear selection of all the things that you have to do,

00:18:51   it's probably not the worst sin.

00:18:54   I would challenge people to make what people call a K term,

00:18:57   but I always call a three point turn while trying to use a touchscreen to change

00:19:00   gears. But then again, I'm a stick shift driver.

00:19:02   I don't have to look at anything when I make a K turn because everything is at

00:19:06   hand that I never have to look anywhere.

00:19:07   But I know lots of people have to grab their thing and look at their dashboard

00:19:11   indicator to see that they're going from D into R and they haven't actually

00:19:14   accidentally switched into N or low gear or whatever. Like people do that.

00:19:19   And a touchscreen, I feel like is a slight downgrade there,

00:19:21   but that's an entirely separate matter that we can debate.

00:19:25   I think what's not debatable is if this works, how Elon says it does,

00:19:29   and if it is remotely good at guessing,

00:19:32   it will train people not to bother looking at the touchscreen and just assume the

00:19:36   car is guessed correctly and then they're just going to hit their bumpers into

00:19:38   things.

00:19:39   Yeah, I think that's, that's the most likely outcome here. Cause like

00:19:42   when my car tries to guess what I want to do,

00:19:47   it is sometimes right.

00:19:49   I'd say it's even often right when my car tries to drive itself,

00:19:53   it is often doing the correct things,

00:19:57   but not always. It isn't a hundred percent of the time.

00:20:00   Also the more things that get put on the touch screen,

00:20:03   the more things I don't have access to the two or three times a year,

00:20:07   I have to reboot the car while I'm driving it.

00:20:09   Oh God.

00:20:11   Because Tesla can't make a reliable car computer. They can't,

00:20:15   they haven't, they, so as far as they can tell, they can't.

00:20:18   And while their computers don't need to be rebooted as often as they used to,

00:20:22   they still do occasionally need to be rebooted occasionally while you're driving

00:20:26   them. And today in the, you know, outgoing model S,

00:20:30   you hold down the, you know, the, the two steering wheel,

00:20:33   little scroll wheel things for a little while and the computer reboots. Today,

00:20:37   when you reboot the computer,

00:20:38   you can do so while driving and the only things that you lose access to that

00:20:43   really matter a lot are climate control and turn signals.

00:20:46   Everything else continues to work just fine with those computers often rebooting

00:20:51   and they take a good, probably 90 seconds. It like,

00:20:54   it takes a while for them to reboot. It's not, it's not like an instant thing.

00:20:57   The fact that the turn signals are connected to the computer is terrible because

00:21:01   those are an important driver thing and there is no reason they need to be

00:21:05   connected to the computer.

00:21:06   Yeah. And to be clear,

00:21:07   I'm actually not entirely sure that they don't function,

00:21:10   but you don't have any indication that they're functioning.

00:21:12   They might still be on the outside. I'm not sure. And in fact,

00:21:16   there was actually just today, I think, or yesterday,

00:21:18   there was a recall announced that basically like the, the niche,

00:21:23   whatever it is, a group, the organization from the government, NHTSA,

00:21:27   National Highway Traffic and Safety Organization.

00:21:30   So I learned from working at a car talk from my first job. There we go. Yes.

00:21:34   So anyways, so the,

00:21:35   the asthma group forced Tesla to recall something some massive number of cars

00:21:39   because the like there's some flaw in some number of cars they shipped where the

00:21:43   computer will frequently die and need to be like upgraded or replaced or whatever.

00:21:48   And it's such a,

00:21:49   it's such a safety hazard where the computer dies because I think of control of

00:21:52   turn signals and stuff like that and climate control,

00:21:54   which you can imagine like if you're relying on like the defroster,

00:21:58   for instance, that's, that's kind of a big deal. Um, so right now,

00:22:02   already even, even with like the latest model S with the latest software,

00:22:07   as of like two months ago, that,

00:22:10   that car still needs to reboot its computer while driving at least once,

00:22:14   twice a year.

00:22:15   And so to have things move into the touch screen,

00:22:19   like the reverse or drive selector,

00:22:22   that to me is scary because they're designing the car as if, well,

00:22:28   first of all,

00:22:29   there's an in the cars if it already drives itself a hundred percent of the time

00:22:31   and that's not true and probably won't be true for at least another few years if

00:22:35   probably not more, you know? Um, so it's already not driving itself full time.

00:22:39   So you need to drive it yourself manually quite often. Most of the time I'd,

00:22:44   I'd argue.

00:22:45   And then also to put something as critical as the drive mode on the touchscreen,

00:22:50   which makes it so you can't then operate that during these critical times and

00:22:55   you have to reboot the car computer. That is scary to me. And I,

00:23:00   and I just think like the one time it guesses wrong is going to make it not

00:23:05   worth it. Like that, that one time if, I mean,

00:23:08   you're lucky if you just bump some, some bumper or you, you know,

00:23:11   back into your garage door or something, you're lucky if that's all that gets

00:23:14   done. You know, you could, you could hit somebody, you could hit a pet,

00:23:16   you could hit, you could hit a kid like that.

00:23:18   It could be way worse than just bumping someone's fender.

00:23:21   And like to have the car go to have any part of that be unreliable is so

00:23:26   dangerous and so bad that it doesn't seem worth it to have the car try to guess

00:23:32   based on conditions that are not going to be a hundred percent of the time.

00:23:37   Correct.

00:23:38   I mean,

00:23:38   I feel like the argument is exactly the argument that keep making for self

00:23:41   driving the art, which has not held for their self driving and probably won't

00:23:45   hold for this, which is people guess wrong sometimes too.

00:23:47   And as long as the computer can guess right,

00:23:48   more often than the computer does more often than people do,

00:23:52   then it's a win for the computer, right? So we don't have to be perfect.

00:23:55   We just have to be better than people. And you know, as we know,

00:23:57   people do occasionally go in the wrong gear and bump into somebody and run over

00:24:00   a pet or a kid, right? That happens, right? So they're just trying to beat humans.

00:24:04   But I don't particularly like that because I am not an amorphous smear of

00:24:10   statistical human being. I'm one specific human being.

00:24:13   So if I am the person who is constantly going into reverse and running over my

00:24:18   dog, I love this feature because it's going to improve my average.

00:24:21   But if I'm someone who has never selected the wrong gear,

00:24:24   this is going to decrease my average.

00:24:26   So individuals buy cars, not just humans. And I know writ large,

00:24:30   like there's the effect on society.

00:24:32   As long as we're better than the average,

00:24:34   if we put the Tesla into everyone's hands somehow,

00:24:36   because they all get 70 grand then we will be increasing safety.

00:24:41   But I don't think based on their, you know,

00:24:44   they said the same thing about self-driving.

00:24:45   We don't have to be perfect. We just have to be better than humans.

00:24:47   And we think we are, but, and even if they are like, it's the,

00:24:50   it's the agency problem of like, well, you would have saved this bad driver,

00:24:55   but you killed this good driver.

00:24:57   Or even just the things we've talked about is like when,

00:24:59   when you make a mistake, you feel like, well, it's on me. Like I'm,

00:25:03   I drove badly and I got into an accident, my fault, right?

00:25:06   But when the car makes a mistake,

00:25:08   people feel powerless because they're like, well, I didn't even have a choice.

00:25:11   The car decided to do this and it made the wrong choice and got into an accident.

00:25:14   Now I'm angry about it. So I don't want to get into the self-driving stuff again,

00:25:18   but I feel like this is the same category of stuff. Like we could ask,

00:25:21   as we do with a lot of Apple products,

00:25:23   what problem were they trying to solve with this?

00:25:25   And I think the answer would be, well, people pick the wrong gear sometimes too.

00:25:28   So we're just trying to be better than that.

00:25:32   I think one of the things that model three owners hate the most is when one of us

00:25:37   says you can't adjust the cruise control with the steering wheel.

00:25:42   I'm sorry. This was my fault.

00:25:44   I knew this too because we've been yelled at many times before about this and I

00:25:49   knew this and I didn't think to correct you at the time and we got corrections.

00:25:52   So yes, all three of us are aware that you can use.

00:25:56   I wasn't aware cause I've never driven a model three and if I had,

00:25:59   I would have corrected Marco in real time. I let everyone down.

00:26:02   I'm sorry. What I think has happened.

00:26:03   So what I think happened was the very first version of the model three release,

00:26:07   like with its first software version, I think didn't support this.

00:26:09   And then I think they,

00:26:10   they fairly quickly added it in a software update cause everyone wanted it.

00:26:14   And I just forgot about that. So sorry.

00:26:16   You actually can adjust the cruise control speed from the steering wheel,

00:26:19   a little jog dial thing on the model three.

00:26:22   All right, moving on.

00:26:23   We were lamenting and laughing about the Siri announcements of messages and did

00:26:31   you know you could reply and Enrico Sissatio writes,

00:26:34   you can adjust announced messages with Siri to announce messages from favorites

00:26:38   only so that messages from your bank for example, won't be announced.

00:26:41   And this is somewhere in settings and messages I believe where you can switch

00:26:46   this and it gives you the options of announced messages from favorites,

00:26:49   recent contacts or everyone, which I may have known at one point,

00:26:52   but certainly forgot. So that was a good tip. Hey,

00:26:56   how do you tell the Apple tube to stop talking to you, John?

00:27:01   Yeah,

00:27:01   my story from last week about how I couldn't get Siri to disengage with me and

00:27:05   uh, kept interacting and I couldn't get it to stop was mostly an example of,

00:27:10   uh, the things I know how to do not working.

00:27:14   Like I was trying all the things that I knew.

00:27:15   A lots of people wrote in to tell me the things that they use that do work.

00:27:19   These are all the things that I were trying. I was trying that we're failing.

00:27:22   Some suggestions where you can say, go away. Goodbye. Shut up.

00:27:27   I think stop also works.

00:27:28   There's all sorts of things that you can say after hailing your dingus to make

00:27:32   it stop doing what it's doing.

00:27:34   What was novel about the situation was that none of those things were working.

00:27:36   And in fact they would,

00:27:38   they would be interpreted as either my failure to answer whatever query I was

00:27:41   being engaged on or like an affirmative answer to for a next step.

00:27:46   And it was just like, I just wanted to unplug the thing. So, but for people,

00:27:49   I have reason I put this in there for people who don't know most voice assistant

00:27:53   cylinder thingies have a bunch of things that you can say to it to make it

00:27:58   stop whatever interaction you're in the middle of. So if you don't know that,

00:28:02   pick one and go with it. I would suggest not picking an angry one.

00:28:06   Don't pick shut up. Don't pick F off.

00:28:08   There's lots of things you can say to them that will work, but that's not nice.

00:28:12   And I know it's an inanimate object and it doesn't matter, but in general,

00:28:15   being angry and inanimate objects doesn't make you feel better.

00:28:17   So I would suggest saying goodbye or I mean, stop is pretty good too.

00:28:22   But anyway, sometimes,

00:28:24   these things just are like a dog with a bone and they just want you to answer a

00:28:27   question and they won't go away.

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00:30:39   All right.

00:30:43   So the two of you presumably got an email today from Apple about your, uh,

00:30:48   fancy, not quite Mac mini Mac minis.

00:30:50   Apple thinks it takes us.

00:30:52   Several weeks to find the box that this thing came in. They're like, Hey,

00:30:56   we're just emailing you just so you know,

00:30:58   you should probably go look for like the box that this thing came in because in

00:31:02   a few weeks we're going to email you to tell you how to return it. It's like,

00:31:05   how long do you think it takes me to find the box? I don't know. Anyway. Yeah.

00:31:09   They sent an email.

00:31:10   So I was wondering the other day actually when the Apple was going to ask for

00:31:14   the DTKs back for people who don't know the acronym,

00:31:16   that's the developer transition kit.

00:31:18   It was the little Mac mini with like an iPad pro inside it.

00:31:22   That you could use to develop and test our Mac software before the R max had

00:31:27   been released. Uh,

00:31:28   and you rented it from Apple for what was like 500 bucks or something. Yep.

00:31:33   And with the knowledge that you were always going to have to return it.

00:31:36   The last time I did this, uh, what did they give people that you got?

00:31:39   Like a Pentium four and a, uh, in an old cheese grater case.

00:31:43   And then when you returned it, you got a sweetheart deal on, I think I'm right.

00:31:48   Or was it like the white, the white Intel IMAX? Um, so we were wondering, Hey,

00:31:52   when they ask for these DTKs back, what are we going to get in return?

00:31:56   And the answer is in Apple's not exactly clear language is you'll

00:32:01   receive a one time use code for $200 to use towards the purchase of a Mac with

00:32:06   M one now. All right. So $200 that's clear.

00:32:11   Can you only buy an M one Mac with it or is it just an Apple store gift

00:32:16   certificate? Right. Good ques- that's gonna, that matters a lot. And,

00:32:20   and also did you see there was an expiration date? Yeah. May 31st you've got May 30.

00:32:25   So sometime between like in a few weeks, Apple is going to email us and say, Hey,

00:32:29   here's how you return it. Cause we don't know how to return it yet.

00:32:31   We just know we're supposed to find the box, right?

00:32:33   But in a few weeks they're going to email us and say,

00:32:36   here's how you return it. And then upon confirmed return of the DTK,

00:32:40   you will get the 200 bucks.

00:32:42   Then the clock starts and you've got to use that or lose it before May 31st.

00:32:46   Yeah. So you basically have,

00:32:47   you're going to end up having like a month to use it.

00:32:50   I mean, it's plenty of time, like whatever,

00:32:52   like we don't expect to hold onto it forever. Um,

00:32:54   I don't know if you have to buy an M one with it, but just to, to calibrate,

00:32:59   what is $200 worth?

00:33:00   That's how much Apple charges for an additional eight gigs of Ram.

00:33:03   So you're running, Oh, should I get the eight to the 16? Well, don't worry.

00:33:08   Apple gave you 200 bucks off.

00:33:10   And that 200 bucks is exactly how much it costs you to upgrade from eight to 16.

00:33:15   So it's not like you're getting a Mac for free or whatever. Anyway, it's fine.

00:33:17   It's better than nothing.

00:33:18   It's better than just renting it for $500 and getting nothing in return.

00:33:21   But now I have now I've suddenly, I feel like Marco or Casey was like, Oh no,

00:33:25   why do I have these? I normally don't have any questions about what max I want to

00:33:28   buy, but now suddenly I have this money burning a hole in my pocket,

00:33:31   which if I don't use it, presumably I just lose it and that's bad.

00:33:34   But if I do use it, that's not particularly economical because great.

00:33:38   So I have $200 off, but then I pay all the rest of the price of the computer.

00:33:42   So I don't know what I'm going to do.

00:33:43   I was pricing out Mac minis mostly just because my DTK is sitting like there's a

00:33:48   place in my little computer area for the Mac mini that is the DTK.

00:33:51   And I would love to just swap that out with an actual and one Mac mini and then I

00:33:56   can actually use it. I can host my plex stuff on it.

00:33:58   I could do all sorts of stuff with it. You know,

00:34:00   I have a place for a mouse and a keyboard over there.

00:34:01   It's like nestled into my life, but who knows? So I have to,

00:34:05   I have to start thinking about this and sometime before May 31st,

00:34:08   I will either buy something with this $200 buy something with,

00:34:12   I would buy something and use this $200 to help get more Ram on it.

00:34:16   Or I would just let that $200 evaporate and feel sad.

00:34:19   Hope you get a non Bluetooth mouse to use with your Mac mini because the

00:34:25   Bluetooth range on this Mac mini sucks.

00:34:27   I've been using, I've actually been using my wife's old,

00:34:32   it's a Logitech mouse and it's got the little, you know,

00:34:34   USB plug in dongle thing. Oh, good, good, good. Yeah. I mean, so this,

00:34:37   this DTK thing, uh, you know, when,

00:34:41   when we all got these, you know, that last summer, you know, I,

00:34:45   it was only $500 and I thought, well, that's a lot less than like, you know,

00:34:49   the old DTKs back in the Intel days. There's like 1500 I believe,

00:34:52   something like that. Right. Um, so it's like, I was like, Oh well that's,

00:34:54   that's, that's not a bad deal. And I knew it was, it was a temporary, you know,

00:34:58   basically leasing this thing for a few months. Uh, and that's fine.

00:35:02   At the time I thought modern Apple, you know,

00:35:06   they don't need to work that hard for, to get developer favor.

00:35:10   People are going to get, people are going to want these things. And I,

00:35:12   I was assuming they were going to give us nothing for them.

00:35:14   I was assuming there'd be some kind of, you know,

00:35:16   recall for them at the end of the year or whatever it was. And they would,

00:35:20   they would say, all right, thanks. Program's over. And that'd be it.

00:35:23   And they'd give us nothing.

00:35:24   And that's not to say that that's what they should have done,

00:35:27   but that's what I expected based on like, you know, modern Apple,

00:35:30   like they're not big on giving people free hardware or you know,

00:35:34   discounted hardware. They're real. They really don't do that anymore. Uh,

00:35:37   so I figured that was it. We'd get nothing.

00:35:40   So the fact that we are getting more than nothing is welcome. Uh,

00:35:44   but the, the number of asterisks on this is,

00:35:48   is so high and it's like, okay, well,

00:35:50   answer number one, it's only $200, which as you said,

00:35:54   doesn't get you very far with Mac hardware. Asterisk number two,

00:35:58   it seems like you have to use it specifically on an M one Mac.

00:36:01   So that's only three computers right now. And asterisk number three, you'll have,

00:36:06   you'll basically have to use it between like April and May, April and June.

00:36:10   And so you'll have like this,

00:36:12   you're gonna have this narrow window to use it and the M one max launched in

00:36:17   November. Yeah. They could have told us they were going to do this, right?

00:36:20   Most people who need this for their development have already bought an M one Mac

00:36:26   at least one. And so to do this,

00:36:30   it's kind of a crappy way to do it. And all those aspects like I think, you know,

00:36:34   if Apple, if they needed to get their stuff together and they were super busy and

00:36:37   they, you know, they were behind schedule or whatever. Okay, fine.

00:36:41   Then like make the discount code a little more flexible, you know,

00:36:45   maybe give us a year to use it and let it apply to anything in the store or

00:36:48   something like that, you know, or at least any Mac for the, for the next year,

00:36:52   you know, something like just make it a little bit more,

00:36:55   a little bit further from what it seems like now,

00:36:59   which is like one of those scammy mail and rebates that have so many conditions

00:37:03   that they want people to disqualify themselves for it.

00:37:06   They don't have to pay the rebate, you know, like it's, it's,

00:37:08   it feels kind of like that where it's like we have such an arrow window and it

00:37:13   allegedly only applies to M one max,

00:37:15   which have existed now for like three months and we,

00:37:18   most of us already have one if we needed it that badly to have a DTK.

00:37:21   So like it's just, yeah, it's, it's kind of a, it's kind of weak sauce,

00:37:25   but at the end of the day it is more than I was expecting to get from this.

00:37:29   Yeah. And paying $500 to be able to develop on an R Mac.

00:37:33   Like I did actually,

00:37:34   especially after I banished big survey it is from my main computer.

00:37:38   I was doing all my arm and big arm and big sir development on the DTK.

00:37:43   So, and I got that computer for 500 bucks. So as far as I'm concerned,

00:37:47   even though I got $0 back,

00:37:48   it was definitely worth it for me in terms of development and also having a

00:37:52   machine that I could use big Sarah on without poisoning my computer,

00:37:56   any of the other computers that I cared about.

00:37:57   Well, John, if you really are going to let the $200 just go poof, you know,

00:38:03   and turn into smoke,

00:38:04   then I call dibs and I'll use it for a Mac mini that I probably shouldn't buy.

00:38:08   I'm sure Apple's real flexible about me.

00:38:10   Tras and transitioning that $200 over to you. That'll be fine.

00:38:13   Don't worry about it.

00:38:14   If you can use more than one code in an order, that could be interesting.

00:38:18   Oh, that would be interesting. I'm sure you cannot,

00:38:21   but that would be interesting. All right. That's okay. Yeah. I'm sorry guys.

00:38:25   But yeah, this is what you get for living on the bleeding edge. No. And again,

00:38:29   this is more than I expected. So I'm, you know, on one hand I'm like, okay,

00:38:33   that's nice. But on the other hand, now I do feel the same pressure as John.

00:38:35   I'm like, well, now that, now that I'm going to get a $200 credit of sorts,

00:38:40   it would be kind of, you know, wasteful to just let it go.

00:38:43   But at the same time I don't need anymore. I'm on max.

00:38:46   I'm very happy with the two that I already that's a two is already probably one

00:38:51   more than I actually needed and they're wonderful. I love them so much,

00:38:55   but I don't need a third for anything.

00:38:57   All right.

00:38:59   So one of the things we always talk about come June ish is typically we'll do a

00:39:04   public service announcement that wherein we remind everyone,

00:39:08   do not go on an iOS beta. It's just not worth it for 99% of the world.

00:39:13   Just no, don't do it.

00:39:15   And I generally speaking do not jump on the iOS betas until late in the cycle

00:39:20   until, you know, August ish.

00:39:22   And I haven't jumped on any of the kind of point release betas,

00:39:27   but oh boy, I'm thinking about it.

00:39:29   Cause I was 14.5 at support for unlocking your phone with Apple watch while

00:39:33   you're wearing a face mask. And that sounds delightful.

00:39:37   Now the good news is since I never go anywhere,

00:39:38   I don't wear a mask that often because I'm never leaving my house.

00:39:42   Now when I leave my house, of course I have a mask on and yes,

00:39:44   this would be deeply convenient, but ultimately when you don't go anywhere,

00:39:48   when all your grocery shopping is done by, you know,

00:39:50   plopping it in your trunk and doing curbside and whatnot,

00:39:54   this isn't something that I need often.

00:39:57   But golly, it sounds great for when I do need it. And so I can't help but ask,

00:40:02   especially Marco who has found a new love for his Apple watch.

00:40:06   Have you tried this yet?

00:40:07   Yes I have. I mean, unfortunately I'm currently under a lot of snow and so I

00:40:13   haven't had the reason to go out much in the world. And when I do go out,

00:40:17   currently I'm usually pretty heavily bundled up.

00:40:19   So taking my phone in and out of my pocket is not something I'm doing a lot of

00:40:22   right now, but I did unlock it a few times just to try and see how it worked.

00:40:26   And there was one time later in the day we're actually kind of legitimately

00:40:28   needed it like instead of just artificially doing it in my house.

00:40:31   And it does work as advertised most of the time. It didn't,

00:40:36   I think I did four or five unlocks total and it,

00:40:39   it failed at one of them where it just didn't do it, didn't offer it.

00:40:43   But it does seem to work most of the way.

00:40:46   It's a little slow like cause the workflow is like you pick up the phone and you

00:40:51   point it at your face.

00:40:52   I think first it tries an actual face ID unlock then that then it figures,

00:40:57   Oh, I think that's a mask. Then I think it asks your watch, Hey,

00:41:01   unlock the phone. And then it communicates. So it's like, it's,

00:41:03   it's a slower process than regular face ID would be,

00:41:06   but it's faster than typing in a passcode. Although honestly,

00:41:10   it's not a ton faster if you've gotten really good at typing your passcode in

00:41:14   this last year. But it's, it's a very nice feature and I'm very glad they added

00:41:18   it. And you know, like, like Gruber posted a couple of things. It basically,

00:41:22   you know, suggesting like that it's, it's non trivial.

00:41:26   It was like it was on trivial to get this done because you have to be damn

00:41:29   careful if you're adding a way for something else to unlock your phone.

00:41:34   Cause that's a really massive like potential for security problems.

00:41:39   If you do anything wrong,

00:41:40   if there's any holes in that process and there's a way for some external thing

00:41:45   to unlock your phone, that's a big deal. And so I,

00:41:49   I'm surprised that they did this at all. Honestly,

00:41:52   it kind of seems like maybe it wouldn't have been worth the risk.

00:41:56   Well, they had to do it because in the grand tradition,

00:41:58   we talked about it on last week's ATP.

00:42:00   And then once we talk about it on the show, it comes into being magically.

00:42:03   It was actually, it wasn't an ask ATP question last week. Oh yeah, right.

00:42:06   Someone asked, Hey, what about, what about unlocking your,

00:42:09   your phone with your watch? And then we were saying, well,

00:42:12   exactly what Gruber said. We were said, well,

00:42:14   you can already unlock your watch with your phone.

00:42:17   So there's a little bit of a chicken egg thing and they have to be very careful

00:42:19   about how that works because you can't have them both being able to unlock each

00:42:22   other in all scenarios. Is that security, right? Um,

00:42:25   but they worked out the issues, right? So I, you know, you can't, if you're,

00:42:29   if your watch is locked and you have your phone and you unlock your phone using

00:42:34   traditional means without the watch,

00:42:36   then that can be set up to unlock your watch.

00:42:38   And once you've unlocked your watch, that can be, and it's on your wrist,

00:42:41   that can be used to unlock your phone.

00:42:43   If you were to relock your phone and all their methods of unlocking on the phone

00:42:47   failed. And I,

00:42:48   what Marco described is exactly what I read that it will try face ID first and

00:42:53   then maybe see if you have a mask and then unlock with the watch.

00:42:56   But I do wonder about the logic of that. Like if,

00:43:01   if it can, I don't know, maybe just doesn't know this, but if,

00:43:03   if it was able to know that you are wearing a watch and that it's nearby,

00:43:07   I would say, try that first. Like why bother with the face ID stuff?

00:43:10   Because the watch unlock doesn't care what the camera sees, presumably.

00:43:14   It's like, well, whatever, I'm using the watch to unlock, but maybe there,

00:43:17   it doesn't actually know that the watch is nearby and it takes some time to

00:43:20   figure that out. So it makes more sense to try a face ID first. I don't know,

00:43:24   but either way, it's one more option for people who wear masks.

00:43:27   So gets a thumbs up, although this is like you said, it's a beta.

00:43:29   And what is it like a 14.5 beta one? What, what beta number are they on?

00:43:34   One.

00:43:35   Yeah. So not going to be in regular people's hands for a while.

00:43:39   And as Casey said, I would not recommend running beta one of iOS.

00:43:43   Honestly, it's been fine for me so far, but you know, I usually like the,

00:43:47   the point releases like this usually aren't as risky as like the, you know,

00:43:51   the big dot zero beta one for, you know, in the summertime at WBC.

00:43:55   So it's not too bad, but, uh, yeah, I still,

00:43:58   it's still certainly like a risk.

00:44:01   Yeah. And to go back a step, John, to what you were saying about, you know,

00:44:04   why not just go to the watch immediately? I would suspect that the,

00:44:08   the idea is trust the most trustworthy thing first.

00:44:13   So the camera that is trained to look at your face, that is,

00:44:17   it is very, very difficult to fool.

00:44:20   Whereas it is comparatively easier to fool the phone into

00:44:25   thinking the watch is unlocked in nearby. Not to say it's easy, but you know,

00:44:28   compared to the thing that's internal, I would imagine it is easier.

00:44:32   But if the watch works, it doesn't matter.

00:44:35   You're not adding any security by trying the more secure one first.

00:44:38   If the less secure one is going to work, who cares what order tries it in?

00:44:42   Because if someone,

00:44:42   if someone was going to break in and they had the watch, you know what I mean?

00:44:46   It's like,

00:44:47   I think it's probably because it doesn't actually know that the watch is nearby

00:44:51   and has to do a thing to make that determination. Doing that thing takes time.

00:44:55   So it's probably still faster to do the face. But we'll say,

00:44:57   this is still just a beta when, when 14.5 final comes out,

00:45:00   Marco can retest and, or you can as well and see if,

00:45:04   see if you can really tell whether it's actually reading your face first and

00:45:07   then trying to watch. Yep. I am excited to try this when,

00:45:11   when the time comes, I'm trying to resist going on the beta because again,

00:45:15   I never go anywhere, but it's tempting.

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00:47:06   show.

00:47:07   John, I heard you got a late birthday present earlier today.

00:47:15   Yeah. Someone at Apple is going through someone,

00:47:19   a bunch of people at Apple are going through old radars/feedbacks and closing

00:47:23   them out because I saw a whole bunch of tweets from other people saying, Hey,

00:47:26   my super old bug was closed or whatever. And that happened to me too.

00:47:30   This was a nine and a half year old radar that I had filed.

00:47:33   Part of the response, which I will read now was,

00:47:37   thanks for your patience and your feedback. It has been noted.

00:47:40   We do not plan to address this issue further because so much has changed since

00:47:44   this was filed. And as I, as I tweeted, indeed,

00:47:48   so much has changed. Like, yeah, if you wait nine and a half years,

00:47:51   probably the thing is irrelevant. This specific bug was, you know,

00:47:55   not, not a very important one.

00:47:57   It was I filed it shortly after I had posted my review of a MacOS 10.7 Lion to

00:48:02   Ars Technica. That's how long ago this was. And in my review,

00:48:10   I had to link to a tech note on Apple's website that described the HFS plus

00:48:15   volume format. And, and the day I posted this, like the day I posted it,

00:48:20   the day Lion came out. So the day I posted this review,

00:48:23   which was the launch day for Lion, Apple removed that documentation,

00:48:28   that tech note. So I had linked to it like in six different places.

00:48:31   And of course everyone's trying to follow the links and saying, Hey,

00:48:33   your link is broken, blah, blah, blah. The link was live the day before,

00:48:37   the day of publication.

00:48:39   Cause you know how they do like a documentation shuffle very often to coincide

00:48:42   with the release of a MacOS, at least they used to anyway.

00:48:44   They still kind of do, I guess. Um, they broke that link.

00:48:47   And so in between frantically trying to either remove the link or find,

00:48:52   I think I ended up linking it maybe to a Google cache or an archive.org page.

00:48:56   I forget what I did, but I also said, you know what, Apple,

00:48:58   this was a little bit of stress that I didn't need. And by the way,

00:49:01   you shouldn't have removed that tech note because it was good historical

00:49:05   information, right? Or whatever. HFS plus volume format.

00:49:08   It had lots of technical details about it. It was pretty good.

00:49:10   It was TN one one five Oh. So that's what this bug was about.

00:49:14   And of course, you know,

00:49:15   it was only really relevant to my life during the first week that my review had

00:49:20   been published or the first day or so when I had to deal with that link.

00:49:22   And I had long since forgotten about it. Of course,

00:49:25   Apple never did anything about it. So they came by here and, you know,

00:49:29   closed it with a slow, this is, you know, we don't plan to address this,

00:49:32   blah, blah, blah. Right. Whatever. I mean, I think it's good.

00:49:36   It's good that Apple is going through their old bug backlog and, you know,

00:49:39   bring things to some kind of resolution, even if it's unsatisfying resolution,

00:49:43   some resolution is better than none. So kudos to Apple for that,

00:49:45   but I will take away those kudos because in this particular

00:49:51   case, the very first thing that I did was say, you know what,

00:49:55   what is the deal with this bug now? Um, just out of curiosity,

00:49:58   not that I care anymore because dead links in my line review are not particularly

00:50:02   important in my life right now. But Hey, you know,

00:50:05   what did they end up doing with that anyway? Like, is that tech note still gone?

00:50:08   So out of curiosity, I went to the link that was reported as broken.

00:50:13   And wouldn't you know it, it redirects to an archive version of that note.

00:50:17   So at some point during the last nine and a half years,

00:50:20   Apple essentially fixed this problem. The old URL redirects to the new,

00:50:24   they have like a new archive section for like old outdated documentation.

00:50:28   The old URL redirects to the new place.

00:50:31   When did that happen during this 9.5 years? I don't know,

00:50:35   but some point it did when someone did that redirect,

00:50:39   they could have closed this bug as closed fixed.

00:50:43   This bug was successfully fixed. I have no idea when,

00:50:47   but then when the reviewer came to like get rid of this old crusty bug,

00:50:50   they didn't even do the simplest thing, which is, Hey,

00:50:54   let's just click this link that they say is broken.

00:50:56   Cause if they had done that, they would have said,

00:50:57   we do not plan to address them. I said, Oh, we fixed this.

00:51:01   I don't know when we fixed it, but we totally fixed it. You're welcome.

00:51:04   But they didn't even do that.

00:51:06   So I continue to be disappointed with the level of interaction that the people

00:51:10   who are updating bugs have with those very bugs,

00:51:13   whether it's not telling me whether they ran a sample project,

00:51:16   not telling me whether they're able to reproduce a problem or not doing

00:51:20   something as simple as, Hey, this thing says I have a broken link.

00:51:22   Is that link actually broken? Click. Nope. It's totally not broken. Closed,

00:51:26   fixed. Instead they just said, we're not going to do anything about this. Oh,

00:51:29   and by the way, you can close it yourself. They didn't even close it.

00:51:32   They didn't even change the status. You can just close this yourself.

00:51:34   So I closed it as resolved because guess what? It's resolved.

00:51:37   When was it resolved? I don't know. So the, you know,

00:51:42   it's fine in the grand scheme of things. It's not a big deal,

00:51:44   but it's frustrating for me.

00:51:45   It makes me think that a computer did it and not a human or maybe the human who

00:51:49   did it was overworked and harried and did not have time.

00:51:53   It doesn't have time to actually read each of these radars and engage with it.

00:51:57   But I feel like if you're, if you're closing old bugs,

00:51:59   don't you have to read the bug a little bit to know like what to say? It's,

00:52:03   I don't think it's entirely computer because the other people who are tweeting

00:52:06   like, here's what my old bug said. The wording is different.

00:52:09   Like they said slightly different things for different bugs. It's really,

00:52:13   it's really just,

00:52:14   I don't understand what's going on at the other end of this pipeline.

00:52:17   I don't know if it's just like a bird pecking on a keyboard or like a random

00:52:22   number generator or just, I don't know.

00:52:26   It's one of those, uh, little birdies that just pecks over and over again.

00:52:29   It's like snow piercer.

00:52:31   You just go up to the front and pull up the floorboards and I don't want to run

00:52:34   in the movie or in the movie. Sorry. I've been watching the TV series.

00:52:36   That's why it's on my brain. No spoilers, no spoilers.

00:52:39   For the record.

00:52:40   I was trying poorly to make a Simpsons reference and it didn't land,

00:52:42   but that was my own fault. That's okay. All right.

00:52:46   Moving right along.

00:52:47   We have some talk that we've been promising this episode about

00:52:52   Sony cameras of all things.

00:52:54   I know nothing about what it is you would like to talk about, John.

00:52:58   So what's going on?

00:53:01   A quick item. Um, Sony continues to roll out new cameras. Uh, I don't,

00:53:05   I haven't been following the rumors for the, for their top of the line stuff.

00:53:09   So I don't know if this was rumors, but it was a surprise to me. Um,

00:53:13   because what I had been expecting was new iterations of all the cameras Sony

00:53:17   already makes. I think we talked about in the show a while ago when they came out

00:53:21   with the new version of the a seven R and how they hadn't come out with a new

00:53:24   version of the a seven yet. And they came out with this surprise a seven C,

00:53:28   which is like a full frame camera in like a small body like mine,

00:53:31   my little tiny a6300.

00:53:32   This new camera is the a one,

00:53:36   which is a bold naming statement for a camera that is extremely capable.

00:53:42   It's their flagship camera. It is fairly amazing.

00:53:46   It costs a huge amount of money.

00:53:48   I think it's the most expensive camera Sony has ever made,

00:53:50   or at least the most expensive like consumer camera they ever made.

00:53:53   It's $6,500 just for the ball. Good grief.

00:53:59   Right. But you know, Hey, it's a one, it's the top of the line,

00:54:03   a number one. Um, so here are the specs, a 50 megapixel sensor.

00:54:07   It will shoot eight K video at 30 frames per second.

00:54:10   And that eight K is down sampled from a larger than eight K a region on the

00:54:14   sensor, which is cool. It will do four K one 20 frames per second. Um,

00:54:20   but one of the most important and most relevant specs is it will do 30 frames

00:54:25   per second in, uh, from the,

00:54:28   the photo part of the camera, not 30 frames per second video.

00:54:31   It will take photographs,

00:54:33   50 megapixel photographs at 30 frames per second.

00:54:37   It will do 20 photos per second in lossless raw.

00:54:42   My goodness. And the mechanical shutter is a mere 10, 10 frames per second.

00:54:47   Right? So it's doing 20 and 30 with the electronic shutter.

00:54:49   Now everyone doesn't like electronic charges if you've ever used them,

00:54:52   because especially with large sensors,

00:54:54   you get all sorts of rolling shutter artifacts and all sorts of weird stuff. Um,

00:54:58   but all of this,

00:55:00   all the specs that I read you are relevant to a thing that has come up in a

00:55:05   bunch of the reviews and has got me thinking about it.

00:55:06   And we've talked about in this program as well, which is on our phone cameras,

00:55:10   they have tiny crappy sensors,

00:55:13   but they take amazing photographs because of the magic of the computers inside

00:55:19   them. And we haven't gotten into too many gory details, or if we have,

00:55:23   we haven't really connected the dots to why that's possible. One reason is,

00:55:27   of course, you know,

00:55:28   they're done by computer companies and those computer companies have very

00:55:31   clever people who work for them,

00:55:32   who know how to do all the clever algorithms to take a very noisy,

00:55:35   crappy set of bits from a sensor in a phone and make a good picture out of it.

00:55:41   That's very difficult to do. It's a very big software problem.

00:55:43   As Marco talked about before of like, it's really hard to do software.

00:55:47   Sony can make really good camera sensors, but do they have a team?

00:55:50   They can do what we call computational photography as well as Apple or,

00:55:55   you know, Google or any of these other companies that make good smartphone

00:55:58   cameras. It's actually a very hard problem,

00:56:00   but there is a second thing that a second factor in why a big camera like this,

00:56:05   like a, you know, quote unquote, real camera,

00:56:08   a full frame camera with a huge sensor wasn't,

00:56:11   hasn't been able to do what our phone cameras do.

00:56:15   One of the things our phone cameras do, well,

00:56:18   speaking of electronic shutter for one, we, none of us hear a shutter sound.

00:56:22   Well, maybe you do if you have the audio on, but honestly,

00:56:24   you should turn that off. There's no shutter as in a physical thing that

00:56:29   goes in front of the sensor and then reveals a sensor and then goes in front of

00:56:32   it again in our phone cameras, they all use what we call an electronic shutter.

00:56:36   The sensor is just constantly exposed to light.

00:56:38   Light comes in as just hitting the sensor constantly.

00:56:40   And then the phone just decides, okay,

00:56:42   I'm going to read the lights hitting the sensor now.

00:56:44   That's the one I'm going to take my picture.

00:56:45   That's called an electronic shutter, but on big cameras,

00:56:48   it's difficult to do that because big cameras have big sensors as in like,

00:56:53   I don't know how big is a full frame sensor, like the size of 35 millimeters.

00:56:58   I was going to say a 50 cent piece, but people don't know what that is.

00:57:01   No one knows what 35 millimeters is either. Um,

00:57:03   it's about the size of an iPod screen, a little smaller, I think.

00:57:06   Maybe like an iPod nano screen.

00:57:08   It's smaller than a business card,

00:57:10   but it's larger than postage stamp depending on the size of your sensor. Right.

00:57:13   Bigger than a bread box drone. It's like if you see,

00:57:15   if you see like those larger than usual postage stamps, it's like that size.

00:57:18   Right. But if you think about the sensor in your phone camera,

00:57:21   it's smaller than your pinky nail. Like it's really, really tiny in your phone.

00:57:25   The sensors are very, very small, but the sensors in, in quote unquote,

00:57:29   real cameras, especially expensive ones are very large.

00:57:32   And the problem has been readout. How long does it take to ask sensor, Hey,

00:57:36   sensor, what is hitting you right now?

00:57:39   You can get all of the information from a tiny little phone size, you know,

00:57:44   pinky nail size sensor pretty quickly, right?

00:57:46   It doesn't have as many, many megapixels. It's not as big.

00:57:50   And the camera sensors,

00:57:52   it isn't exactly as simple as you think it is in terms of just having red,

00:57:54   green and blue sensors.

00:57:55   There's all sorts of details and how they're read out and de-mosaic and all that

00:57:58   stuff. Right. So it's easier to do that in a small sensor.

00:58:03   And the second thing for, for, and by the way, if you don't,

00:58:06   if you have slow readout speeding, use electronic shutter,

00:58:08   it could be that you read the top pixels at one moment.

00:58:13   And then by the time you get down to reading the bottom pixels,

00:58:15   you've moved the camera and now you have a slanty picture, right?

00:58:18   And you can see this with electronic shutter on older cameras. If you, you know,

00:58:22   whip the camera around in a circle and take a picture of the electronic shutter,

00:58:25   everything's all wavy in it because it didn't,

00:58:27   it read the sensor from top to bottom or left to right or whatever.

00:58:30   And it read one pixel at a different time than it read the other pixels.

00:58:33   It takes a long time to read out 50 megapixels, whatever, from a sensor.

00:58:38   Right.

00:58:39   As evidenced in this Sony camera that it can shoot 30 frames per second

00:58:44   from this giant sensor or 20 frames per second in lossless,

00:58:49   this sensor is actually allowed to read, able to read out all of its picture,

00:58:54   all of its pixels very, very quickly in one 30th of a second.

00:58:58   That's amazing and important. So let's use an electronic shutter because,

00:59:03   you know, you could have a shutter speed at one 30th of a second.

00:59:05   It's a reasonable shutter speed in many scenarios.

00:59:07   You can get every single pixel in that one exposure,

00:59:10   just like you would if it was a piece of film or another sensor where you lifted

00:59:14   the mechanical shutter, expose everything, and then close the mechanical shutter.

00:59:16   Right.

00:59:17   The second thing that makes this sensors readout speed interesting is

00:59:23   that one of the ways our phones take better pictures is not just by getting

00:59:28   the pixels from the sensor and then doing smart things with them.

00:59:30   Our phones, when you're, especially when you're in the camera app or whatever,

00:59:34   are constantly taking pictures.

00:59:37   They're just not saving them. It's a rolling buffer of pictures.

00:59:39   I don't know how many are in there. Maybe Marco knows, but like I don't,

00:59:42   it's, let's just say it's like 10, 20 or 30 pictures.

00:59:47   I can tell you it's exactly enough to kick overcast out of Ram every time.

00:59:50   Right. When,

00:59:52   when you're in the camera app and you're just looking around,

00:59:55   it is constantly taking picture after picture after picture after picture in

00:59:59   this one big rolling buffer. And when that buffer fills up, the, the, the,

01:00:02   the oldest picture gets kicked out and the new one comes in.

01:00:05   It's constantly doing that. And when you hit the shutter button,

01:00:08   what it's doing then is not taking the picture. It is saying, okay,

01:00:12   of all the frames that are currently in the rolling buffer, take the one,

01:00:17   two, three, four, 10,

01:00:19   I don't even know how many frames around the time that button was pressed and

01:00:24   combine them all to make one really good photo.

01:00:27   So it's not just taking one readout of the sensor very often.

01:00:31   I don't know if all the time, but I imagine very often it's taking multiple,

01:00:34   readouts of the sensor over time and combining them with computer smarts to

01:00:39   reduce noise, increase more detail, so on and so forth.

01:00:42   Now, if you're whipping your camera around in a circle and you do that,

01:00:45   it's much more difficult to line those things up because maybe you only have a

01:00:48   partial picture on the frame,

01:00:50   or maybe the frame is shifted so much that you can't realign them.

01:00:52   Or maybe subject has moved in between, right? It's a hard problem,

01:00:56   but that's what phone cameras do to make amazing pictures is they take more than

01:01:00   one photo and combine them into a single one. HDR is another example, right?

01:01:05   In the quote unquote expensive real camera world,

01:01:08   they just weren't able to do that because it took so long to get to read one

01:01:13   frame off the camera that you can't constantly be taking hundreds of frames and

01:01:17   a rolling buffer and combining them because you just couldn't get them any

01:01:20   photos that close to each other in time.

01:01:22   But now with the Sony A1 and presumably future cameras with incredible readout

01:01:27   speed, where they're able to read the entire sensor 30 times per second,

01:01:31   it becomes possible for a camera like this to do what phone cameras do.

01:01:36   I say possible because Sony A1 doesn't do any of the stuff that I'm describing,

01:01:41   but previously, but for two reasons, one previously it just couldn't,

01:01:45   cause you couldn't read the sensor that fast. And two,

01:01:47   Sony doesn't have as far as I'm aware, software to do that.

01:01:50   So I'm excited for this camera. It's a technical marvel.

01:01:54   Like I'm not going to buy one it's too expensive, blah, blah, blah.

01:01:57   But it does mean that the next frontier of, uh,

01:02:02   you know,

01:02:03   high end photography and video cameras is not so much us keep adding more

01:02:07   megapixels because there,

01:02:08   I think there have been cameras with more megapixels and they're just,

01:02:10   they're not chasing that anymore. It seems like, but instead it's readout speed.

01:02:15   It's how fast can I read this sensor?

01:02:17   And there's a whole bunch of buffers down the line in the cache hierarchy.

01:02:21   How big is the rolling buffer of photos? How fast can I read out?

01:02:24   How fast can I dump them to storage? Uh, again,

01:02:27   the one has lots of impressive specs here where you can just hold down the

01:02:29   shutter and fill your giant, uh, what is it?

01:02:33   CF express two or whatever 160 gigabyte card with a huge number of photos.

01:02:38   How long, how long before you have to stop holding down the shutter?

01:02:42   What does the photography rate decrease to? It's pretty amazing.

01:02:45   You can take hundreds of photos. Um,

01:02:47   and also the IO is so fast that if you take your finger off the shutter for a

01:02:51   second, it will make sure it dumps them all to the card. Um,

01:02:54   which is a big change from cameras from only a few years ago where once you

01:02:57   filled the buffer,

01:02:58   you'd have to wait like five or 10 seconds for it to flush the buffer to the

01:03:02   card and then you can take photographs again. So, uh,

01:03:06   this is an exciting camera, even though there's no way in hell I'm going to buy

01:03:10   it, although I would definitely take one for free if someone wants to give me

01:03:13   one. Um,

01:03:14   but I'm mostly excited that it will become plausible for camera companies like

01:03:22   Sony and Canon or whatever to do what our phone cameras do in the coming years.

01:03:27   I say plausible because the hardware will be able to do it.

01:03:30   It's just a question of whether they will be able to make the software to do it.

01:03:33   And it also makes me think one more time of, you know, uh,

01:03:36   Grover reminded me of when he,

01:03:37   when he posted a recollection of Phil Schiller on stage at one of the WWC is

01:03:42   saying, uh, our Grover asked, is Apple the best, uh,

01:03:47   phone camera company in the world? And Phil said, no,

01:03:50   we're the best camera company in the world. That was years ago, by the way.

01:03:53   And Apple hasn't shipped a dedicated camera.

01:03:55   But if Apple ever did want to ship a day dedicated camera,

01:03:58   they could buy the sensor from Sony,

01:04:00   they could do their own computational photography and you know,

01:04:03   maybe let someone else do the lenses and boy,

01:04:05   that would be an amazing product, but it would probably cost more than my Mac.

01:04:08   I mean,

01:04:10   if we start saying that it's okay to spend $6,000 in the camera body,

01:04:15   the next thing you know, we're all going to be spending $6,000 on Mona. Oh,

01:04:19   Oh, monitor is way bigger than that camera.

01:04:22   So just in terms of square inches, you're really getting your money.

01:04:25   The camera does have a display on up,

01:04:27   but this place terrible compared to this monitor. It's very tiny.

01:04:30   Does it have a thousand dollars stand?

01:04:32   I don't think it's, I bet there is a stand you can get for these cameras that

01:04:35   cost a thousand dollars. That's what camera equipment is like. Oh yeah.

01:04:38   It's called a tripod. Like a really good tripod is probably more than that.

01:04:41   I mean like this, this is,

01:04:43   I haven't been paying attention to the camera world for lots of reasons,

01:04:48   including the fact that I think I've actually finally admitted to myself that I'm,

01:04:51   I don't care anymore about cameras. But, um, I,

01:04:55   I really am very impressed to see this, you know,

01:04:59   being pushed forward. I mean this category of camera, like, you know, you're like,

01:05:02   Oh my God, $6,000. That's nothing new. Like,

01:05:05   like back when I was more of a camera head,

01:05:07   this would basically be the competitor to like the Canon one D series, uh,

01:05:11   which is aimed at like sports photographers, new photo journalists,

01:05:14   like people who need like really,

01:05:16   really high end hardware for very like fast capture.

01:05:20   That's why that's where the sports comes in. Usually, um, stuff like that.

01:05:23   So like there is definitely a market for this,

01:05:24   that they are directly attacking with this.

01:05:26   It's not like totally unreasonable for that market.

01:05:29   I'm glad to see that they're still in the game.

01:05:31   I'm glad to see that this is still moving forward,

01:05:33   even though I'm not in it anymore. Uh, it still excites me,

01:05:36   like on a technical level that this kind of stuff is still happening.

01:05:40   Yeah. The exciting thing about this camera is previously,

01:05:42   Sony had split its top end line into two models, the one for sports,

01:05:47   which is the one that had the crazy high frame rate and the fast readouts.

01:05:51   That was like the nine series. Yeah.

01:05:53   And then the one that was super high resolution, which was the a seven R series,

01:05:57   which had lots of megapixels,

01:05:58   but didn't concentrate so much on being able to shoot at high frame rates and

01:06:02   being able to dump to the card faster, whatever. And this a one does both.

01:06:05   It has more big pixels than the,

01:06:07   in the a seven R series and it has faster shooting than the a nine series and it

01:06:11   costs as much as both of them combined. So there you go. Like that,

01:06:14   that's why it's impressive. Like you don't have to choose anymore.

01:06:16   If you're wondering like which Sony should I get?

01:06:18   Just get the most expensive one because it does all the things,

01:06:20   which is good. Like it's good to have that option if it can exist. Yeah. Um,

01:06:25   and also like the scent,

01:06:26   there's a bunch of more interesting things about this sensor.

01:06:27   This is a brand new sensor. It's got the Ram stuck on the back of it.

01:06:30   It's stack CMOS. It's like, it's, it's the next advance in the sensor thing,

01:06:34   but it does the effect of making all the rest of Sony's cameras kind of like the

01:06:38   M one say, okay, well, one of the other cameras is going to get a good sensor

01:06:41   like this. Not like, not this exact sensor obviously,

01:06:43   but like a scaled down version of the sensor. It's just sort of the, it's,

01:06:46   or like the new LG OLED panel that they're only putting in their highest end TV

01:06:50   kind of makes you wish, but when are they going to put that panel on the

01:06:53   affordable TV? So this is truly a flagship, you know,

01:06:57   top end bleeding edge product and we'll have to wait until next year for it to

01:07:00   start to trickle down. I've,

01:07:02   I put this in here mostly because I've been deeply into, again,

01:07:07   I tend not to fret too much about computer purchases, but camera purchases.

01:07:11   I'm just like, just like the two of you.

01:07:13   I've been fretting about what camera to buy for so long,

01:07:16   going back and forth and back and forth,

01:07:18   just learning about cameras and lenses and trade-offs and prices. And

01:07:22   this, I mean,

01:07:24   this particular camera doesn't throw a monkey wrench in anything cause there's no

01:07:27   way I'm buying this, but now I know the technology that's available.

01:07:29   And I'm like, Oh, when the, the new a seven, the a seven four comes out,

01:07:33   not the a seven R four, their names are so bad, but the a seven,

01:07:37   without any stuff after it, when the fourth, when that one comes out,

01:07:41   will it use one of these new sensors?

01:07:43   Because the rumors are it doesn't use the same sensor as the old one.

01:07:46   Like the a seven C came out, but it uses the same.

01:07:48   It's basically like an a seven three inside of compact. Oh,

01:07:52   I know this is just nonsensical jargon to everybody.

01:07:54   The point is kind of like TVs cameras.

01:07:57   I'm in now in this paralysis mode where I don't want any of the current products

01:08:01   and I can envision a product with current technology that if I could take one

01:08:04   from column and one from column B and one from column C,

01:08:06   and shove it into a camera, that's the one I want, but they haven't made it yet.

01:08:10   So I just sit here buying nothing and looking at reviews.

01:08:12   Yeah. This, this is again, like, you know, I think I've,

01:08:17   I've largely admitted to myself finally that like, I'm just,

01:08:20   I'm no longer into photography. Um, and, and,

01:08:22   and that my iPhone satisfies my needs perfectly well enough. Um, but

01:08:27   like one of the things that I think would be very welcome is what you're saying.

01:08:32   I'm like, if the, if the big cameras start to develop the ability to do some of

01:08:37   the good tricks that phone cameras are doing related to software based image

01:08:42   enhancements and everything like to do some more of that, I mean,

01:08:45   to some degree cameras have always done that. Like, you know,

01:08:48   if you compare like an unprocessed raw to the JPEGs, the camera makes,

01:08:52   obviously they're doing some processing, they're doing some noise reduction,

01:08:54   they're doing color mapping and stuff like that. Um,

01:08:56   so there's always been some degree of processing that, that the cameras do.

01:08:59   But it's, it, you know, phones have so far surpassed what,

01:09:04   what cameras are doing that phones can now make incredible images in tons of

01:09:09   conditions and situations and,

01:09:12   and of subject matter that big cameras can't even approach. Not even close.

01:09:16   On that topic, by the way,

01:09:18   though one of the things I'm always looking at is the advancement of Sony's sort

01:09:21   of class leading, uh, autofocus. And, uh,

01:09:27   the one of the one feature that they've had for years that they keep improving is

01:09:30   their, uh,

01:09:31   object tracking and eye detection because when you're taking a picture of a

01:09:34   person, usually you want the eye to be in focused.

01:09:36   There's no reason that our iPhones can't be doing that.

01:09:39   Like it's not a computational challenge that the iPhone can't tackle.

01:09:42   Like the iPhone processor crushes anything in these cameras.

01:09:46   Why doesn't, why don't our iPhones do face and eye tracking?

01:09:50   They do face detection. They'll put a boxer on a person's face, right?

01:09:52   But they don't, I mean, maybe they do it and they just don't show the little box,

01:09:56   but I would love for them to find people's eyes.

01:09:58   So I wouldn't focus on like my big nose,

01:10:00   but it would actually get the focus back a little,

01:10:01   maybe it doesn't matter because the aperture is so small and these things that

01:10:04   the difference between focusing on the tip of my nose and focusing on my eyes is

01:10:07   never going to be noticeable at the apertures of these things.

01:10:10   But it just seems like a thing that they could do. And on that front, by the way,

01:10:14   Sony, Sony did eye detection,

01:10:16   then they did animal eye detection because eye detection would never work on

01:10:20   your dog because their eyes look different than ours. And this year they added a

01:10:23   third item. Like they have a menu for it's like fish. They did eye detection,

01:10:28   animal eye detection and bird eye detection,

01:10:32   which makes sense because people take pictures of birds,

01:10:35   but birds are animals. People come on, rename them. I'm just like,

01:10:38   what the animal I detection. It's like a, it's like throwing shade on the birds.

01:10:42   We've got people, animals and birds, stupid dinosaurs.

01:10:47   What if you want to take a picture that includes your cat attacking a bird?

01:10:53   In mid air, what will it focus on?

01:10:56   According to the reviews,

01:10:58   the bird eye detection works so badly that it will not get the bird. I mean,

01:11:03   the bird detection, they got to work on that cause it's the first year it's out,

01:11:06   but it's totally for people who take pictures of birds,

01:11:08   like literal actual birds with those really long lenses, you know?

01:11:10   Oh yeah. Well, cause again, like if you're, if you're aiming,

01:11:13   if you're no pun intended,

01:11:14   if you're aiming your camera market at people who still buy big cameras and

01:11:19   whose needs are not solved by phone cameras,

01:11:23   bird watchers are actually a surprisingly large category because they need such

01:11:27   incredible telephoto distance. Like the phone will never have that.

01:11:31   So like it does make sense for them to have that.

01:11:33   Yeah. And these things are, you know,

01:11:35   these are examples of computational photography cause this is all machine

01:11:38   learning. Like the cannons actually have much better bird detect, I think,

01:11:41   where there will,

01:11:42   they will find a bird and when the bird turns its head towards the camera,

01:11:45   then they will find the eye of the bird.

01:11:47   And that's all based on machine learning stuff of recognizing what the heck does

01:11:50   a bird look like. Same thing for, you know,

01:11:52   cause it's the whole body of the bird that they're finding. You know,

01:11:54   there's basic object detection of the thing that's moving,

01:11:57   but the bird detect is like, I don't,

01:11:58   not only do I recognize that's an object, but that's a bird.

01:12:01   So they're coming along. Well, like I said, the sensor readout,

01:12:04   it sounds like such a minor thing, but until this happened,

01:12:07   there was no way for a top end camera to be able to do what the iPhone does by

01:12:12   combining three or four or five photos into one cause it couldn't get three or

01:12:15   four or five different readouts from that sensor in a short enough period of

01:12:18   time with a moving subject to do anything useful.

01:12:21   And now suddenly that becomes plausible.

01:12:22   It seems weird to me that Canon or Sony or somebody hasn't like thrown all the

01:12:28   money at people at Google or Apple that are on the camera team and just said,

01:12:34   Hey, you know, the computational photography stuff, we want that. Please come work

01:12:39   for us and make that. And I know it's not quite that simple,

01:12:42   but it seems like it would be a real winner.

01:12:44   Yeah. Apple and Google are slightly more profitable companies than Sony.

01:12:47   So hiring people away is going to be tricky.

01:12:50   Well, I think there's also, you know,

01:12:51   I think there's there'll be two major challenges off the top of my head for

01:12:53   that. I mean, number one is like,

01:12:55   I don't know how much their market is actually asking for that. You know, as,

01:12:58   as phones have gotten so good and have destroyed the entire like low to mid and

01:13:03   slowly eating the high end of the market,

01:13:05   the people who are still buying Sony's high end cameras and everyone else's high

01:13:10   end cameras are mostly people who don't want a lot of that processing.

01:13:14   I bet like there it's,

01:13:15   it's mostly people who are who are using it more professionally,

01:13:18   who want more raw type stuff. I mean, video took over the entire, you know,

01:13:23   SLR style and Merrill's market as well. I mean,

01:13:25   many of these cameras are used only as video cameras for their entire lives.

01:13:30   They just, cause they happen to be really good video cameras. And, uh, and you know,

01:13:33   I think that that video taking over with this market kind of saved a lot of this

01:13:38   market. I think, I think, I think a lot of these companies would have been done

01:13:41   a while ago if not for video.

01:13:43   I mean, they can steal features from, from Apple there too. Like, you know,

01:13:46   the thing that Apple does where I forget what frame rate,

01:13:49   but you take it in one frame rate and it takes two of every frame and then

01:13:52   combines them or whatever like that. You know, I think it's like if you shoot,

01:13:56   you shoot it and you get 30 frame per second video,

01:13:58   but the video is actually taking 60 frames and then either it's picking the best

01:14:02   one or combining them. These cameras should totally do that.

01:14:04   Like that's a great idea. And they're able to do four K at one 20.

01:14:07   So they have frames to spare. But as far as I'm aware, none of them do it.

01:14:11   Well, but I think this gets to the second problem. You know, problem,

01:14:15   problem one is their market doesn't really seem to demand a lot of this stuff.

01:14:17   Problem two, I think if you look at like the,

01:14:21   the ridiculous advances in Silicon and hardware required for the iPhone every

01:14:26   year to do this kind of processing with a tiny little sensor,

01:14:31   it might not be technologically feasible at a reasonable price in a camera body

01:14:36   without like a giant fan in it to do this level of processing for,

01:14:40   for like a sensor that big from a big camera in real time.

01:14:44   Like it just might not be reasonably technically within Sony's ability to make

01:14:48   an image signal processor that could do that.

01:14:50   I think they're doing pretty good.

01:14:52   Like Sony had overheating problems with a lot of their cameras. In fact,

01:14:55   my line of cameras has that problem for this exact reason that the thing that

01:14:58   was overheating was the CPU, right? Um,

01:15:01   but they more or less seem to have solved that with the current generation of

01:15:04   cameras, presumably by having TSMC make them chips in a smaller process size.

01:15:09   But I, I think that they've mostly,

01:15:12   the technology is there to do the Silicon fabbing and to do the image processing.

01:15:17   Cause remember Sony also has image processing expertise. Like for example,

01:15:21   in their televisions, like that's one of the main selling points of their television.

01:15:24   They can LG panel and they slap onto it a Sony image processor. Uh, so I,

01:15:29   I think they're pretty good at doing that image processing and more recently

01:15:32   through no thanks to Sony, but thanks to TSMC or other companies,

01:15:35   they're able to get that within a reasonable power envelope. And like you said,

01:15:39   and more importantly,

01:15:40   a reasonable heat envelope in their cameras that I think they're within shooting

01:15:44   distance of doing this. I mean, we'll see when they get these camera,

01:15:46   this 50 megapixel thing out,

01:15:47   but like they remove the recording limits and all their things that can go for

01:15:51   hour at a time without overheating or anything. And now this one is,

01:15:54   is shooting 50 megapixels at 30 frames per second in photos.

01:15:59   So I feel like the, the grunt is there.

01:16:02   Hardware wise, they just need to get the software part of it together. Um,

01:16:07   I mean, this is, you know, this is the top of the top end.

01:16:09   We'll circle back in three years and see how it's trickled down,

01:16:12   but they really couldn't use some of that expertise from the, the,

01:16:16   the phone market. And I know what you're saying. Like, well,

01:16:19   pros don't want that. They don't want you messing with their pictures,

01:16:22   but I think for a lot of applications,

01:16:24   especially for the YouTuber market and that type of thing,

01:16:26   they do want you to do stuff like Apple does with the video is the reason so

01:16:30   many YouTubers rave about the video quality from Apple's phones because Apple

01:16:35   does all this clever processing with your video to make it look reasonable right

01:16:39   out of the camera.

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01:17:40   All right, let's do some ask ATP. Donald Rabideau writes,

01:17:47   do you use any utilities like clean my Mac X or 10 or whatever or onyx to

01:17:52   perform system maintenance? If not, is there any particular reason? I don't.

01:17:56   Uh, I haven't ever really felt the need to. And plus, uh,

01:18:01   for awhile there I was, you know,

01:18:02   reinstalling Mac OS like it was going out of style. And so, uh,

01:18:07   like I've said many, many, many times on the show, to some degree,

01:18:10   I consider my computers mostly ephemerals.

01:18:12   So I never have a build that it seems like I never have a build that sticks

01:18:17   around long enough to develop the sort of cruft that one of these I suspect

01:18:20   would get rid of. But I don't know, that's just me. Marco, how about you?

01:18:24   So I'm going to say two things that are potentially conflicting. Oh,

01:18:27   this will be good. Um, I never run anything like this.

01:18:32   I don't think such utilities are usually necessary. Uh,

01:18:35   I think there's a lot of, there's always been a lot of like superstition and,

01:18:39   you know, in, in computer solutions, you know,

01:18:42   even back when we were in the windows days, like, you know, people thought like,

01:18:46   if you, if you defrag every night, it'll,

01:18:48   it'll save your hard drive and it'll make things run faster cause everything will

01:18:51   be in optimized loading locations and everything. And you hear about all these,

01:18:55   you know, procedures you should run to maintain your computer. Um,

01:18:58   and a lot of them I think are just superstition and don't actually,

01:19:01   don't actually end up being necessary, uh, or don't,

01:19:04   don't provide meaningful improvements.

01:19:06   And so I never use any of these kinds of utilities. Um,

01:19:09   and I don't think most people need to the second half of what I'm about to say

01:19:14   now.

01:19:15   I'm currently on an installation of Mac OS that I need to badly do a reinstall

01:19:21   because it doesn't work very well.

01:19:22   This is the one that I imported from my iMac pro onto my new Mac mini.

01:19:29   And it's, there's a lot of stuff about it's messed up. Like I can't,

01:19:32   one of the biggest things that drive me nuts that I think might motivate me to

01:19:36   actually finally do this is that I can't search in mail anymore. Oh,

01:19:39   and I've tried, I've gone like looked and looked at all the different like crappy

01:19:43   website articles of how to use of like how to rebuild your mail search.

01:19:46   And I've done everything that all of them have suggested and it doesn't work.

01:19:51   So every search is return zero results.

01:19:54   And it turns out I searched my mail a lot.

01:19:57   That's actually a fairly common thing that I need to, I need to find an email.

01:20:00   So yeah, I have to do a reinstall.

01:20:03   Other interesting side note that it has nothing to do with this question,

01:20:06   but I looked it up, um, a little while ago during our show,

01:20:10   some real time followup.

01:20:11   My Mac mini return window is still active for the next two hours.

01:20:19   Which why would you want to, I don't know, but it's,

01:20:22   it's interesting to know that I guess like I could theoretically return this Mac

01:20:27   mini and then in April spend the Apple credit.

01:20:29   I knew it. If I still, I see your point. I see your point. I missed your point.

01:20:33   Yes. I'm not, I'm not entirely sure I, that would be worth doing,

01:20:37   but it is worth knowing that I can do that. Also,

01:20:41   you know, um, I,

01:20:44   I really kind of miss my Mac book air like as my primary computer.

01:20:48   So we'll see. Maybe I don't know. And,

01:20:51   and it turns out like all of my problems that I was having with the Thunderbolt

01:20:56   docs seemed to mostly be that my ethernet wire in the wall was bad.

01:21:00   And so actually the rest of the Thunderbolt doc ecosystem seemed to work just

01:21:05   fine. Oh, Marco. All right, John, do you do any of this sort of thing?

01:21:10   Well, I'm going to, I know the question is asking us where we, where they reuse it,

01:21:14   but I'm going to echo Marco's advice that in general,

01:21:18   if you have a Mac,

01:21:19   you do not need to do any of these things for multiple reasons.

01:21:23   The first reason is that lots of these sort of

01:21:27   preventative maintenance procedures or as Marco called them superstitions,

01:21:33   that is a fertile ground for scam apps, right? Cause they're always,

01:21:38   they always want to advertise your computer may be in danger.

01:21:41   You may have a virus you need to do this per run this program every day to make

01:21:45   sure your Mac is healthy. A lot of those apps are scam apps.

01:21:49   They're apps that are installing malware mining for Bitcoin,

01:21:52   doing all sorts of terrible things,

01:21:53   putting toolbars in your browsers back in the old days,

01:21:55   like all sorts of unsavory things. So that's one reason to why.

01:21:58   Then the second is you don't actually need to do any of the things that these

01:22:03   things do. Like even the good ones that are actually legitimate applications,

01:22:07   your Mac will run just fine on its own. Or if it doesn't,

01:22:11   it's a bug in the OS that will be fixed in an upcoming version of the OS.

01:22:14   And it's not like, uh, it's something you need to do to fix it.

01:22:17   So I do not recommend people seek out these programs.

01:22:20   I do not recommend people respond to ads that advertise these programs that are

01:22:23   around people get these programs. That said,

01:22:26   I have several of these programs and I'll tell you why. Um,

01:22:30   sometimes if you are a, you know,

01:22:34   technically oriented Mac enthusiast, you may find yourself in a situation where

01:22:38   your Mac is doing a weird thing and you want to figure out how to make it stop.

01:22:41   And the solution is to do one of the many things that these pro the legitimate

01:22:46   programs of these type do reset your launch services database,

01:22:50   delete some caches, uh, rebuild your mail index,

01:22:55   right? Uh,

01:22:56   you delete your spotlight index and rebuild it like all sorts of

01:23:00   reset your PRAM. Who knows? There's a million things that you can do.

01:23:04   You don't need one of these tools to do those things at all.

01:23:08   And you can do them all from like the command line or whatever. Right.

01:23:11   But if you're technical enough to want to try to fix something yourself,

01:23:16   but not technical enough to trust yourself, messing with the command line,

01:23:20   if you can find one of these programs that is legitimate and frequently updated,

01:23:25   that's the key frequently updated. So like the way you can tell is like, Oh,

01:23:32   big sir has been released. Is there a new version of insert tool X

01:23:36   for big sir out like the day of or a few days after that shows that someone is

01:23:41   updating that thing, hopefully in a legitimate way, right?

01:23:44   If on the other hand,

01:23:46   you have a version of one of these programs that you've got three years ago and

01:23:49   you try running it today, hopefully it will refuse to run and say, Whoa,

01:23:52   I can't run on this. I don't even know what OS you're running on.

01:23:54   If it doesn't refuse to run, that's another warning sign, right?

01:23:57   So in the best case, occasionally,

01:24:00   I will want to use one of these tools to do a thing with less work than me

01:24:05   trying to go through my old notes, documents,

01:24:07   and look up some command line incantation. Because remember,

01:24:09   the command line incantations change from OS to OS as well.

01:24:12   And so if you do a web search for like how to reset your launch services

01:24:15   database,

01:24:16   you might find a command line that worked three years ago that doesn't work now

01:24:18   or does damage.

01:24:19   Now a well maintained version of one of these utilities will have the up to date

01:24:24   way to try to do the things that it does. That said,

01:24:29   even the best of these programs can absolutely be accidentally used to screw up

01:24:34   your system either because of bugs in the program or because the user error as

01:24:38   in you'd probably didn't want to do that and now you're in a bad situation,

01:24:41   right? So once again, I will say,

01:24:43   you should not have one of these programs. You generate in general,

01:24:47   you don't need it, but occasionally I resort to it

01:24:50   even if it's just a,

01:24:53   I like the best of these tools will tell you what it's going to do for the

01:24:55   command line just to say, Hey, I'm not going to ask you to do it,

01:24:58   but if you were to do it, show me the command line you would run.

01:25:00   And then I can use that as an input into my larger problem solving saying, well,

01:25:05   this tool says it's going to run this command line and these Google search

01:25:08   results say you should try this command line and this Apple forum post as I try

01:25:12   this command line and then I can try to figure out what it, you know,

01:25:14   what the truth is. Read some man pages, try some experiments myself,

01:25:18   like, but we're way off in the weeds here. This,

01:25:21   if you find yourself having to do this type of debugging,

01:25:23   you should probably just, you know, I would say take it to the Apple store,

01:25:27   but I don't, I don't know what you do now in COVID times, but yeah,

01:25:31   don't get one of these programs,

01:25:32   but a really good one of these programs is actually useful tool to have.

01:25:35   I will say one tool I do use, which is not really one of these programs,

01:25:40   but it's kind of in the outfield, maybe in the ballpark, maybe,

01:25:45   I use the,

01:25:46   like the disc space searching programs that will scan your disc and tell you

01:25:51   like where your, where your space is going.

01:25:53   I wouldn't put those in this category at all.

01:25:56   Everyone should have a disc space scanning program because those are read only

01:26:00   non-destructive and they're really useful.

01:26:02   Yeah, well they can, you can destruct with them.

01:26:05   Like you can delete from them usually like, Oh really?

01:26:07   Which ones do you have that you can delete from?

01:26:09   Daisy disc.

01:26:10   Daisy disc and space Gremlin are the two favorites in this household.

01:26:13   Tiff prefers Daisy disc for the prettiness. I prefer space Gremlin because I mean,

01:26:17   it looks like it was designed by a space Gremlin, but it was, it,

01:26:20   I prefer it just the way it works. Um, yeah, so Daisy disc,

01:26:24   I think is the more common choice.

01:26:25   My recommended one is grand perspective.

01:26:28   It used to be called disc inventory 10 or actually just inventory 10 was the

01:26:31   original one that had this UI.

01:26:33   I think grand perspective is the more modern incarnation.

01:26:35   I don't know if they're related anyway, but they look very similar and all it

01:26:39   will do is give you a big view of a bunch of, you know,

01:26:42   a rectangular view of your hard disk and based on area,

01:26:45   what's filling the space. And that's it. That's all it does.

01:26:48   And you can mouse over the little rectangle, the big rectangle and say,

01:26:51   what the heck is this giant rectangle? And you find that it's like, you know,

01:26:55   well, here's, here's the danger. These programs don't delete anything,

01:26:57   but they'll tell you what all the files are. And you're like,

01:26:59   what is this big rectangle? VM image. Do I need that? I'm going to go delete it.

01:27:03   Right. No, usually they're smarter than that. Like usually they, they don't,

01:27:07   they don't usually show like system stuff by default, um,

01:27:11   or let you delete it by default. But I mean, grand perspective,

01:27:14   grand perspective doesn't show you things that aren't owned by you because it

01:27:18   doesn't have permission to, especially in this modern OS,

01:27:20   even if you get full disk access, like I don't think it runs this route,

01:27:24   but it does show you everything.

01:27:25   And the danger of one of these programs is not that the program's going to do

01:27:28   anything because as far as I'm aware,

01:27:29   our grand perspective can actually modify your desk at all.

01:27:31   But it's the user who says, I don't know what this thing is.

01:27:34   I'm going to delete it. It's like the story of, you know,

01:27:36   when Mac OS X first came out and everyone found a library folder and they're

01:27:39   like, whatever this library thing is, I don't need it.

01:27:41   And they would just delete it. And in the old days of Mac OS X,

01:27:43   there was no system integrity protection or anything like that.

01:27:46   And you own the library folder that was in your home directory.

01:27:48   So people would just delete it. Like, I guess this, this,

01:27:50   the new version of Mac OS comes with books or something,

01:27:53   but I don't want any of that. Let me just delete library.

01:27:54   And I would just destroy their entire account because now you can't even log in

01:27:59   anymore because there was essential files in the library folder or, you know,

01:28:02   system slash library or slash system, or, you know, it's,

01:28:05   it's a classic thing on the Mac of people finding the system folder and saying,

01:28:10   I don't need all this stuff and just putting it all in the trash. So

01:28:12   even though these programs themselves are not harmful,

01:28:16   they give you enough rope to hang yourself because now you know where all the big

01:28:20   files are and you don't think the computer should need that big file,

01:28:24   but it may turn out the computer really does need that big file system integrity

01:28:28   protection. It helps a lot here because it will prevent you from deleting parts

01:28:32   of the iOS,

01:28:33   but there are still things that are not technically part of the iOS that you

01:28:36   could delete with like, you know,

01:28:38   authenticating it as an administrator or something that you probably shouldn't

01:28:41   delete. So be careful.

01:28:42   But I think a program like that is really useful for you to find like the three,

01:28:48   you know, uh,

01:28:50   movies you downloaded in iTunes five years ago that are each taking up five

01:28:53   gigs of space in your hard drive. And you totally forgot about it.

01:28:56   By the way, one more real time follow up.

01:28:59   So another thing that's wrong with my installation that I'm using,

01:29:02   in addition to, you know, the,

01:29:04   the aforementioned issues is that somehow when I migrated this installation to

01:29:09   the new Mac mini,

01:29:10   I got a previously relocated items folder, uh,

01:29:15   which contained nothing of use.

01:29:17   So I put it in the trash and I tried to empty the trash and I now have this

01:29:20   item that I cannot empty from the trash. It says, uh, that,

01:29:23   cause previously relocated items includes the folders,

01:29:27   the sub folders security user, like usr, the units kind of user.

01:29:31   And then in that a SIM link to X 11 and I can't delete it cause it says

01:29:36   X 11 is required by the system and I can't put it anywhere else.

01:29:39   So I have this item that's just stuck. I just can't do my trash forever.

01:29:43   Just, I have a non empty trash forever.

01:29:46   So there's, Oh, I also have the window server,

01:29:48   high CPU usage bug on this one,

01:29:50   even though Chrome is totally gone from this computer. Like, so yeah, there's,

01:29:53   there's a lot that's not right with this installation,

01:29:56   but I'm still not going to run some other weird utility.

01:29:58   I'm just going to reinstall it.

01:29:59   Sometimes finder refuses to empty your trash,

01:30:02   but if you just go to the command line and go into your dot trash folder, you can,

01:30:05   you can just do R minus RF and it'll kill it.

01:30:07   So do R minus RF will definitely almost certainly kill it. Be careful.

01:30:11   Like I'm telling you to run terrible commands like carefully Marco specifically

01:30:15   and nobody else carefully go into your dot trash.

01:30:18   It's folder in your home directory.

01:30:19   Where is it? Is it, is it under volumes trashes? No,

01:30:22   it's just in your home directory. Oh, look at that. Dot trash, CD, that trash.

01:30:25   And then do you see all the files there? If you do, uh,

01:30:28   just try R minus RF on those files and pseudo if it doesn't, it doesn't. Hey,

01:30:32   maybe not while we're recording, not while we're recording.

01:30:35   What do I need X 11 for?

01:30:37   I am not allowed to LS dot trash my home directory,

01:30:43   even with pseudo operation not permitted.

01:30:45   Uh, do you have an admin account? Yes, this is my account.

01:30:49   I'm telling you, this installation is not right.

01:30:53   I've got to get rid of it. That's not right.

01:30:55   You should be able to list your own trash. I almost,

01:30:58   I almost decided to record tonight from the mat, from the MacBook air.

01:31:01   I almost like plugged it back into my whole docking at my desk just cause that

01:31:05   installation is so good and I miss it so much as I'm using this one,

01:31:08   but I haven't had time to blow this one away cause I've been,

01:31:10   I've been pretty busy. Oh, I gotta get rid of this.

01:31:13   Does your dot trash directory have any extended attributes set on it?

01:31:16   Is it have weird owners or permissions? I don't know. I don't,

01:31:18   I don't want to do this. I just want to blow this away.

01:31:20   This is not the only issue. Step one, reboot and then step two,

01:31:24   see what the heck's going on. But honestly, step three,

01:31:27   the Mac mini really does suck at Bluetooth reception. I had to like,

01:31:30   I have to keep moving it closer to my, like my main stuff set up. Like I,

01:31:35   I first had it like beside my desk on top of a file cabinet, like which,

01:31:39   cause it could be tucked away neatly there and there the mouse barely worked and,

01:31:44   and watch unlock wouldn't work at all. I would say it's too far away.

01:31:46   So I now have it like scooted over, like tilted up behind a speaker,

01:31:50   but it's like it's still has really flaky reception.

01:31:53   It's like this is so much worse than the MacBook air. Oh God. Oh my God.

01:31:57   To go back a half step. I really liked easy disc and I recommend that one. Yeah.

01:32:01   And I really like space Gremlin. If, if it is a disc in your style,

01:32:04   try space Gremlin. It's, it's my favorite. All right. Dan Blundell writes,

01:32:07   I just got a Mac mini with eight gigs of Ram performance is great,

01:32:09   but it typically uses between 500 megs and two gigs of swap memory.

01:32:13   I don't notice a hit in terms of performance,

01:32:15   but I read in a couple of places that swap memory might impact the lifespan of

01:32:19   the SSD. Other places say it's not really a concern with modern SSDs.

01:32:22   If I'm satisfied with performance is protecting the SSD from swap memory,

01:32:26   a good enough reason to pay the premium for more Ram. I mean, honestly,

01:32:29   I don't know why, if you can afford it, you wouldn't just get more Ram,

01:32:32   but it sounds like the ship has already sailed.

01:32:34   So I honestly don't know what the situation is with lots and lots of rights on

01:32:39   SSDs these days as our resident file system expert, John,

01:32:42   what's the situation here?

01:32:44   So, uh,

01:32:45   first thing to keep in mind is the amount of swap memory as shown by the various

01:32:50   places in the O S is not really what you're interested in.

01:32:53   What you're interested in is how many page ins and page outs to the swap file

01:32:58   are happening like activity traffic, right?

01:33:01   So swap files tend to be allocated in these very large chunks just because you

01:33:05   have a big swap file and one of these large chunks,

01:33:08   if nothing is being read or written to it very frequently, it's no big deal,

01:33:12   right? You only care about the traffic. And, uh, as Dan noted,

01:33:17   uh, lots of activity on SSD slowly, very slowly,

01:33:22   where is it out? Um,

01:33:23   so you should be concerned if there is a tremendous amount of activity going to

01:33:28   and from your SSD anywhere, not just a swap file.

01:33:30   So what you want to know is am I swapping not,

01:33:33   do I have a two gig swap file hanging around somewhere, right? Now,

01:33:38   if you've determined that you are frequently swapping a lot,

01:33:41   it would surprise me if you didn't notice this because although SSDs are much

01:33:45   faster than spinning disks, they're much slower than Ram.

01:33:48   So if you were paging in and out to that swap file a lot,

01:33:51   I feel like you would notice that, uh, performance wise.

01:33:54   Now SSDs deal with the wear out factor by essentially being over provisioned by

01:33:59   some amount. So as they wear out cells inside them,

01:34:02   there's actually more than whatever, you know, say you get a five,

01:34:05   12 gigabyte SSD,

01:34:06   there's more than five 12 gigabytes worth of storage inside there.

01:34:10   They keep some in reserve. And when you wear out a portion of it,

01:34:13   they will use some of the other, right?

01:34:14   The more expensive and enterprise of the SSD,

01:34:17   the more they are over-provisioned and the longer they will last.

01:34:21   But I would suspect that in a consumer laptop being used by a consumer to do

01:34:26   normal things,

01:34:27   something else is going to die before you wear out that SSD most likely,

01:34:31   unless you are doing some really weird stuff with lots of paging or lots of

01:34:35   constant IO or constantly recording video, or I don't,

01:34:39   I don't know what could cause that amount of IO, but in general,

01:34:41   I think modern SSDs are probably going to put up with the amount of reason

01:34:47   rights that a normal person does.

01:34:48   So I would not worry about having too little Ram causing lots of

01:34:53   swapping, which in turn causes your SSD to wear out.

01:34:57   Jan Philip writes,

01:34:58   if I copy three files in three different simultaneous copy processes in the

01:35:01   finder,

01:35:02   will the bits of the three files be written mixed on the hard drive as opposed to

01:35:05   if I had run the copy process sequentially,

01:35:07   is there more order in the bits on my hard drive?

01:35:09   If I let one copy process finish before I start the next,

01:35:11   I would like to know the answer to this question. Just out of curiosity,

01:35:14   let me tell you about defragmenting your,

01:35:16   well, and how with SSDs, it's,

01:35:18   it becomes a much more complicated thing with like what you want it to be or,

01:35:22   and what it needs to be. Yeah. So John here, again, this is your,

01:35:27   kind of part of the world. What's the situation back in the day?

01:35:32   Computers would address hard drives like spinning hard drives,

01:35:36   fairly directly. If you think of what a spinning hard drive was like,

01:35:40   it's a bunch of disks that spin and they're stacked on top of each other and on

01:35:44   in between them are a bunch of read and write heads, right? It's like,

01:35:48   think of like a, you know,

01:35:49   seven record players or five record players stacked on top of each other with

01:35:52   little heads reading them all.

01:35:54   And the each of the disks had a, well,

01:35:58   they had what you can imagine, like a track. They're not like,

01:36:03   they're not like a a record where it's a spiral that starts in the middle and

01:36:07   goes out to the edge. But instead they had concentric circles,

01:36:09   like a tree ring, right? And one of those rings is a track.

01:36:13   And a sort of pie wedge shape of the disc is a sector.

01:36:18   And you could also address what's called a cylinder,

01:36:21   which is a track through the entire stack, right?

01:36:24   So you can imagine the outermost track,

01:36:25   the outermost cylinder is that track on all the disks that are down there.

01:36:30   And in the very, very early days,

01:36:31   computers would address hard drives by track and cylinder

01:36:37   and sector, like more or less directly,

01:36:39   like the operating system had the ability to say,

01:36:42   I want to write in the fifth sector of the outermost cylinder of these disc or

01:36:46   whatever. Right. And in those cases, like, uh,

01:36:50   Marco was talking about in case you just mentioned the, uh, the defragmenting thing,

01:36:54   where there was computer programs that would visualize, they would take all these,

01:36:57   these cylinders and sort of stretch them out and connect them together.

01:37:00   So it becomes a one big, long line.

01:37:02   And then they would wrap that line into a rectangle shape.

01:37:04   And they would say, this is your hard drive, all these, this rectangle,

01:37:07   and every one of these pixels represents like a particular, you know,

01:37:11   sector on a particular track or whatever, like not even that,

01:37:13   but they would break it up into some even sized chunks and they would rearrange

01:37:17   your files so that all the bits that belong to whatever the operating system are

01:37:22   all next to each other and all the bits that belong to this are next to each

01:37:24   other. When they say next to each other,

01:37:25   they meant like address wise because they can address these hard drives more or

01:37:30   less directly. And for example,

01:37:32   bits that were all on the same track one after the other,

01:37:36   you could read those in a big line because the disc would spin and like a little

01:37:40   record player, the little head would go over that, that track.

01:37:42   And it would read as the track, you know, went underneath,

01:37:45   they would read all those bits and it's great if they're all on that same track

01:37:49   because then you don't have to move the heads. If,

01:37:51   instead you had the first part of that files on the outermost track,

01:37:54   then the second part is on the innermost track,

01:37:56   then the third part is on a middle track.

01:37:57   Just to get those three little bits, you'd have to go, okay, read from here.

01:38:01   Now move the head, wait for it to steady, now read from here,

01:38:04   and then move the head again and wait for it to steady.

01:38:06   It was way faster if they were all on the same track cause you just move the head

01:38:08   and then spin the thing around 360 degrees and get all the bits off of that

01:38:11   track, right?

01:38:13   That in theory was what defragmenting was doing for you because the discs were

01:38:18   more or less directly addressable and the addresses were more or less sequential

01:38:22   within each cylinder or whatever.

01:38:23   And they would try to make the files contiguous so that the first bit of the

01:38:29   files right next to the second bit and third bit and fourth bit or fifth bit or

01:38:32   whatever. And that's why they'd have these very pleasing displays of taking your

01:38:36   disc where all these files are scrambled everywhere.

01:38:38   I'm going to make it all contiguous and I'm going to color code it so the

01:38:41   operating system is one color and your, I don't know,

01:38:44   audio files are another color. I don't remember what defragging things did,

01:38:47   but I did the same things with Norton utilities back in the day on my Mac.

01:38:50   Well, and there was, there was a reason why defrag,

01:38:53   why they would put all the files next to each other.

01:38:55   It wasn't just to make it look pretty, although that was, I think,

01:38:57   a big reason why people liked watching it. But it was,

01:39:00   it was because if you put all the files near each other,

01:39:03   there are all the parts of a file near each other,

01:39:05   the heads would have to spend less time going back and forth seeking across to

01:39:09   different cylinders on the disc. And cause back then and both still hard drives,

01:39:14   like, you know, spinning disc hard drives.

01:39:16   If you need to move the head back and forth,

01:39:19   it takes way longer than if you could read like sequentially off of one track or

01:39:23   off of nearby tracks. The more you have to move the head back and forth,

01:39:26   the slower it is by a lot.

01:39:27   Because you'd have to move the head fairly quickly to get there,

01:39:30   but then you have to wait for the head to settle because you wouldn't stop on a

01:39:33   dime. It would like vibrate a little bit and you had to wait for it to settle

01:39:36   down and then you could read again and then you'd start moving again.

01:39:39   It was terrible, right?

01:39:40   That whole paradigm started to fall apart way before SSDs came out,

01:39:46   because once you break the connection between the operating system and the

01:39:51   physical device in terms of addressing, all bets are off. So in the early days,

01:39:56   like I said, you could actually address physically the attributes of the hard

01:39:59   drive, but eventually you would say, Hey, hard drive,

01:40:03   write this into, you know, address, you know,

01:40:07   cylinder one sector five and the hard drive would go, Oh yeah, sure, totally.

01:40:11   I'll do that. And it would put those bits wherever the hell it wanted.

01:40:14   Like the connection between virtual addressing and physical addressing was broken

01:40:19   by modern hard drives because they would add things like cash and they would

01:40:23   allow the hard drive mechanism to make its own intelligent decisions about where

01:40:26   to allocate stuff. And it was no longer address one is next to address two is next

01:40:30   to address three is next to address four or whatever physical attributes where

01:40:33   you could sort of control it and say,

01:40:35   I'm going to put this on the outer track of the hard drive.

01:40:36   Cause that spins faster, right? And it will be faster to read.

01:40:39   And it would be like, Oh, you can tell the hard drive that,

01:40:42   but you can't actually make the hard drive do anything because the hardware is

01:40:45   now this complicated system,

01:40:46   which is a little miniature computer with its own algorithms of a head movement

01:40:50   and its own Ram cash and everything. And once that relationship was broken,

01:40:54   trying to do any kind of defragmenting thing to get the bits next to each other

01:40:59   wasn't guaranteed to do what you wanted. Maybe it did. Maybe it didn't.

01:41:04   It was difficult to tell SSDs of course,

01:41:07   don't have a head that's moving anywhere. And an SSD is,

01:41:10   there's usually not any particular extra costs for reading something from one

01:41:15   location or another.

01:41:16   And that's not entirely true because they do read things in regions and it,

01:41:19   you know, the regions aren't the size of one bite.

01:41:21   So if you're going to read a bite from here and a bite from there,

01:41:23   there is additional overhead.

01:41:24   But now more than ever is a sucker's game to try

01:41:29   to arrange things physically in the storage through the operating

01:41:34   system.

01:41:35   Cause the operating system is so far from the physical reality of the storage

01:41:38   that it has no hope of controlling where things are. It,

01:41:43   so that's, that game is entirely over. So getting back to the question,

01:41:48   which is, Hey, if I'm doing simultaneous copies,

01:41:51   are the things spread out or are they together?

01:41:53   There are so many different layers between your time sequencing of operations.

01:41:59   Like I'm doing all the files at once, or I'm doing them in sequence.

01:42:01   There is various IO buffers in the operating system.

01:42:06   There is caching all the way through the entire storage hierarchy.

01:42:10   And then there is the actual physical addressing of the individual chips and the

01:42:13   SSD.

01:42:14   It's trying to control where things land by time

01:42:20   sequencing is not going to work the way you think it's going to work.

01:42:23   And even if it did work that way,

01:42:26   the benefits on something like an SSD are minimal.

01:42:29   That said, it takes some amount of computing to do IO.

01:42:33   And if you do lots and lots of IO in parallel, you could not in a finder copy,

01:42:40   but you could in a very large, you know,

01:42:42   much bigger scenario swamp the CPU by doing say

01:42:48   100,000 threads, each of which is trying to write a file at exactly the same

01:42:52   time.

01:42:52   And that could slow you down as opposed to doing those 100,000 files either in

01:42:56   sequence or more likely in batches that equal the number of CPU cores you have.

01:43:00   Right? So it's not like time sequencing of IO can't affect your performance,

01:43:05   but when you're talking about three files in the finder,

01:43:09   a don't worry about it. And B,

01:43:12   there really is no control even at the operating system level of exactly where

01:43:16   those bits land in your storage.

01:43:18   That's the magic of a sort of a layered hierarchy,

01:43:21   like the separation of concerns,

01:43:23   having the operating system know the physical attributes of your storage and

01:43:27   control them directly is a worse system than what we have now. So just, uh,

01:43:31   let go and let storage handle it.

01:43:33   Trust the system. All right. And then finally, uh,

01:43:40   Aiden Traeger writes,

01:43:42   do you think Apple ever offer iCloud backup for the Mac?

01:43:45   It seems like another way for them to increase services revenue through iCloud

01:43:47   storage upgrades. I understand the logic here, but no,

01:43:51   given how stingy they are with, although it's gotten better recently,

01:43:55   how stingy they are with iCloud storage space as it is,

01:43:58   I personally do not see this happening.

01:44:00   This is why many time prior sponsor backblaze exists,

01:44:04   but that's just my two cents. Marco, what do you think?

01:44:06   iCloud backup seems like an obvious thing to offer on the Mac.

01:44:10   That being said, it's more complicated to offer on the Mac. You know,

01:44:15   as people like backblaze know, uh,

01:44:17   because Mac data locations, Mac data volumes,

01:44:21   they're just different from iOS devices. The way,

01:44:24   like what would you back up?

01:44:26   Like iCloud backup on the phone is not just a hundred percent file system clone

01:44:31   of your phone.

01:44:32   It backs up like things that are marked as documents and data for certain apps

01:44:36   and things like that.

01:44:37   And like as different reasons for how it backs up photos and whether it backs up

01:44:41   things like music or how it backs them up on the Mac. All of that is different.

01:44:46   Like the way where apps save data, how they save data,

01:44:49   how they mark their data. It's all different. Um,

01:44:52   whether they store it like in caches or in the library folder or whether they

01:44:55   store it in documents and on your file system and your home directory.

01:44:58   Like there's,

01:44:59   there's so many different variations of where and how they store everything that

01:45:03   in order to reasonably be sure that you have like all the important stuff on a

01:45:08   Mac, you kind of have to back up everything or at least almost everything,

01:45:11   which is way more data volume than what iCloud backup usually includes on your

01:45:16   iOS devices. So that's problem number one.

01:45:20   Problem number two is iCloud backup is actually a pretty bad backup.

01:45:25   I know this because like, so you know, I'm sure, I'm sure every,

01:45:31   every parent out there or even if you're not a parent,

01:45:34   you've probably had a situation where you or someone in your family has

01:45:40   accidentally caused some kind of data loss to happen on an iOS device,

01:45:44   but like in one app.

01:45:46   So we had an issue of like this recently where my kid was,

01:45:51   was editing some levels in a game that has like a level editor built in and he

01:45:54   accidentally deleted the wrong one on like the level list screen and he,

01:45:57   he actually deleted one that he didn't want to delete as he was leading other

01:46:01   ones and it crushed him and he,

01:46:04   he'd worked so hard on making this level and it was just gone and there was no

01:46:07   undo and I'm like, I'm like,

01:46:10   we might, if we, if we can, we can try to get this back.

01:46:15   I'm like if it was on here yesterday,

01:46:18   which was before your last iCloud backup, we can try to,

01:46:22   to restore this from yesterday's iCloud backup and see if it's in there.

01:46:27   But what that will require to basically have time machine for one app from like

01:46:32   five minutes ago or one day ago,

01:46:36   what that would require would be to capture a full computer based backup of the

01:46:41   iPad because a lot of stuff is not backed up to iCloud backup like Minecraft

01:46:46   data. So a lot,

01:46:48   so you still have to do it the full computer backup to even have a backup at

01:46:51   all. And the entire rest of the time that he's like using his iPad out in the

01:46:55   world or whatever upstairs,

01:46:56   there's no backup of any of that stuff that's not an iCloud backup unless like,

01:47:01   you know, the two or three times a year.

01:47:03   Remember to like do it to iTunes or to find her now and then to actually do like

01:47:07   a restore a like, Oh crap, I messed something up in this app.

01:47:10   You have to blow away an entire iOS device to restore all of iCloud's backup

01:47:16   from the previous backup onto it. So you have to like first wipe it,

01:47:22   then install an entire backup over it. So it's this massive,

01:47:26   like destructive and incredibly time consuming process to even see if you can

01:47:31   maybe get this information out. And at the end of the day,

01:47:34   like we didn't even end up attempting it. We decided, I'm like, I told him,

01:47:37   like, here's what, here's what it will take. Here's how long it will take.

01:47:40   Do you want to do it? And he decided not to cause it was gonna,

01:47:42   it was gonna be a while of having his iPad not be usable. But, uh,

01:47:47   it just showed like if this was something on a Mac,

01:47:50   I could just go to back please and like restore that one file,

01:47:56   which it would have backed up because it can do that. Cause on the Mac,

01:48:00   you can have third party backup solutions that can read the entire disc or read

01:48:04   special things however you want them to.

01:48:06   And they can do things that Apple doesn't do like offer point in time backup

01:48:11   recovery of like only certain files or save version histories of things.

01:48:16   And I just, I don't see Apple doing any of that stuff. I, that,

01:48:19   that stuff kind of looks messy to Apple.

01:48:22   That's not the style that they operate their services in.

01:48:24   Their services tend to be like, what is like the,

01:48:28   the 75% solution that we can offer that will solve basic needs in a basic way,

01:48:33   pretty reliably. Like that's what they do.

01:48:37   And so if they did offer iCloud backup for the Mac,

01:48:40   I think what we would want it to be in theory would be like cloud based time

01:48:45   machine. Basically that I think is what we would want it to be. Yep.

01:48:48   But I don't think it would actually be that. I think it's too,

01:48:50   I think that's too much data and too much functionality for the way Apple would

01:48:55   actually design and ship such a service if they ever would.

01:48:59   So I think really not only would they probably not do that because of the

01:49:04   aforementioned complexity of offering that on the Mac,

01:49:06   but also iCloud backup sucks if you have other options.

01:49:11   Like if I could have backblaze on my phone instead,

01:49:13   I would because it would be so much better.

01:49:16   And for all of our devices, like for, you know,

01:49:19   for all of his Minecraft levels and everything, that would be so much better.

01:49:22   Part of the reason that I play my games on a PC now is that I run backblaze on

01:49:26   the PC so we can back up my game data.

01:49:28   So I can't do that on an iPad or something.

01:49:32   So I think logically it makes sense, Hey,

01:49:36   they should offer iCloud backup for the Mac.

01:49:38   But once you start thinking about what that would entail and what that would

01:49:41   actually be, I'm not sure it's, it's a very compelling alternative.

01:49:45   What do you think, John? I think they should offer this backup. In fact,

01:49:49   Apple did offer backups as part of itools.

01:49:54   I think, do you remember the backup icon that was an orange umbrella? I do not.

01:49:58   No, that was before our time.

01:49:59   I think it was an Apple app that was creatively named a backup, I believe.

01:50:03   And it would back up your computer files on your computer to the cloud.

01:50:08   I think even before cloud had a name, but anyway, it was terrible. Uh,

01:50:12   and it went away and it was just as well.

01:50:14   But ever since they rolled out iCloud backups for iOS devices, I've thought,

01:50:19   okay, well,

01:50:19   you should bring that to the Mac because it shows that that's a thing that you

01:50:23   have an appetite for doing. It is a thing that all users need,

01:50:27   all users do need cloud backup.

01:50:29   And especially in the new era of services going up like a rocket at every

01:50:34   earnings report, Hey, this is another service you can sell. Um, now I know,

01:50:38   it's like, well, who cares about the Mac? We do sell it.

01:50:40   It's called the iCloud storage and we charge through the nose for it.

01:50:43   And nobody buys it on their iOS devices cause they're cheap. Uh,

01:50:46   so it's not really a successful big services success story.

01:50:50   And the Mac is a much smaller market, so maybe no one cares,

01:50:53   but Apple totally should offer iCloud backup for the Mac. Um,

01:50:56   now as to why Apple is going to be bad at it when they do setting aside history

01:51:01   and all the things that Marco noted about how the way the iCloud stuff works for

01:51:05   iOS devices is that should you cloud based backup

01:51:10   well, not just well from a technical perspective,

01:51:13   but well from a financial perspective, like to make it,

01:51:16   make that sweet services revenue with those sweet services margins,

01:51:20   you really need to do what Backblaze does and actually do the storage

01:51:25   yourself.

01:51:26   Because if Apple is just reselling S3 storage from AWS to us,

01:51:31   AWS gets a cut.

01:51:32   Like that profit margin that you're paying to aid it for AWS for S3,

01:51:36   that's money that could be part of your margins, Apple,

01:51:38   if you did what Backblaze does, which is run your own storage,

01:51:42   then you don't have to pay another company,

01:51:45   a slice of the profit for the storage.

01:51:47   But it also means that you have to figure out, Hey,

01:51:49   how do you run storage at an Apple scale? I mean,

01:51:52   Backblaze does amazing things with storage,

01:51:55   but they don't have as many customers as Apple has to do storage at Apple scale.

01:52:00   You need something like Azure, Google cloud or AWS,

01:52:04   but all of those companies will want to take a share of the profit.

01:52:09   So if Apple ever does iCloud backup for the Mac,

01:52:12   if they don't roll their own storage,

01:52:15   it's going to be more expensive than Backblaze,

01:52:18   not just because they're Apple,

01:52:19   but because some cloud provider will be taking a portion of money for every

01:52:24   single byte that's stored. Um, it, you know, I, I,

01:52:28   I always do wonder how Apple can afford to do whatever they're doing for, uh,

01:52:33   iCloud photo library,

01:52:34   because I don't think they're running their own storage from that.

01:52:36   So iCloud photo library is basically a wad of Apple software in front of S3 or

01:52:40   something similar.

01:52:41   Do you think Apple has trouble affording anything?

01:52:43   I mean,

01:52:45   but the whole point of the services stuff is you want it to be profitable because

01:52:49   it's, you know, like the more people you sign up,

01:52:52   every new person you get, that's more profit. It's, it's a,

01:52:54   it's a good business to be in. That's why services revenue is going up.

01:52:57   It's not quite as profitable as making TV shows, but you know,

01:53:00   because like when you make the show once and lots of people watch it,

01:53:02   every person who stores a bite, you have to pay for that bite.

01:53:05   But if you could economically run your own storage,

01:53:08   you could come within the ballpark of, uh, backblaze's pricing,

01:53:13   which is fairly amazing in the grand scheme of things like, and so I think Apple

01:53:17   should do this. I think when they do it, it's going to be too expensive.

01:53:20   And I think it's going to be too expensive because Apple doesn't want to do its

01:53:24   own storage. And again, you could say that's wise. It's like, well,

01:53:28   what do you want Apple to do? Become like AWS and Azure and Google cloud.

01:53:31   And my answer is a much longer answer versus yes,

01:53:33   they totally should do that because if they don't,

01:53:35   they're constantly paying money to those people. But thus far,

01:53:38   it doesn't seem like Apple wants to do that.

01:53:39   So I am ready for the mediocre, uh,

01:53:43   Mac place iCloud backup solution from Apple because a mediocre one is better than

01:53:48   none, but a good one would be great. Had to backplay is not sponsored.

01:53:52   This episode. They didn't need to apparently not.

01:53:56   Well, thanks to the ones who did a Linode away and flat file.

01:54:00   And thank you to our members who support us directly.

01:54:03   You can join as well at ATP that FM slash join,

01:54:06   and we will talk to you next week.

01:54:08   Now the show is over. They didn't even mean to begin.

01:54:16   Cause it was accidental. It was accidental.

01:54:20   John didn't do any research. Marco and Casey wouldn't let him,

01:54:26   cause it was accidental. It was accidental.

01:54:32   And you can find the show notes at ATP dot FM.

01:54:36   And if you're into Twitter,

01:54:39   you can follow them at C A S E Y L I S S.

01:54:45   So that's Casey lists M A R C O A R M N T.

01:54:51   Marco Arman S I R A C U S A.

01:54:56   Syracuse. It's accidental.

01:55:01   They didn't mean to.

01:55:04   I'm snowed in. Did I tell you that the Bay Bay is frozen, right?

01:55:15   You can't take your ferry out. That's right. We have,

01:55:17   we are officially stuck here for a probably another couple of days.

01:55:22   It will be in total ends up being probably about a week. Uh,

01:55:26   cause there's no more, there's no ferry service. So we are snowed in.

01:55:30   We are eating our way through the freezer. At worst case scenario,

01:55:34   you could always walk through the a hole fence over the causeway,

01:55:37   over the bridges. Like you're not actually stuck. Right. You know, I mean you,

01:55:41   so if we were to get a driving permit ever, you know,

01:55:45   in order to drive across the sand to go over to that one bridge, uh,

01:55:49   we could do that.

01:55:51   But there's also a lot of people who have those permits who we know. And so like,

01:55:54   you know, if we were, if we really need stuff, we could just ask people,

01:55:57   we know, Hey, can you give us a ride to Costco or whatever?

01:55:59   And they would do it. Um, but I don't like, I don't like to, uh,

01:56:03   ask for favors that I don't need. So people,

01:56:06   people want to know what the a hole fences.

01:56:07   You actually don't need to cross the a hole fence to go off the island.

01:56:10   The health is the other direction. Oh, right. But it's, it's the, um,

01:56:14   the point of woods fence.

01:56:15   You have to be a bit of an a hole in order to build an entire fence across an

01:56:19   island to block people from accessing an entire section of the island.

01:56:23   For an island based so much on like walking and biking and everything to block

01:56:28   off your entire town from anybody walking and biking into it is kind of a jerk

01:56:32   move.

01:56:33   So,

01:56:34   so one of my jobs when it comes to ATP is I take a first crack at the show notes

01:56:39   and on a good week,

01:56:40   Marco won't find very much to change and sometimes he finds a lot that needs

01:56:44   changing. But nevertheless, I was, you know, Googling, um,

01:56:48   the point O O woods in order to put it in the show notes.

01:56:52   And I found fire island.com/town/point-o-woods-fire-fie-wood.

01:56:54   Island.com/town/point-o-woods-fire-island.

01:56:55   That'll be in the show notes. And I will read to you a small excerpt from this.

01:57:02   Well pedigreed families came from all corners of the country to summer at point

01:57:08   O woods.

01:57:09   While many neighboring fire island communities are predominantly populated by New

01:57:12   York city and greater long Island, some residents point of wood residents,

01:57:15   cherish their land and water sports almost as much as they value family

01:57:18   continuity in their way of life. And of course their privacy. Wow.

01:57:22   What a bunch of jerks. I mean, it is, it is what it says on the tin. Yeah.

01:57:27   It's, it's certainly not known for its diversity.

01:57:29   They don't just let in rich people. You have to be the right kind of rich people.

01:57:33   Yeah. Oh yeah, you do. That's that. That's a real thing. Like it's,

01:57:38   it's as bad as you think it is.

01:57:39   Don't worry. Their houses will wash away just as easily as yours.

01:57:42   When the big storm comes. I don't know if that's comforting to you. No,

01:57:46   thank you. Interestingly, a point O woods is not called lonelyville,

01:57:51   which apparently is another community on fire. Yes. Lonelyville is a real place.

01:57:55   It's probably the best named place on fire.

01:57:58   I will say there, there was, um, you know, fire island has a lot of communities,

01:58:04   some of which are extremely liberal, old hippie liberal. Um, also some,

01:58:08   some very gay communities. And this past summer I got a pair of electric,

01:58:13   sand bikes and I took a few rides, just, you know,

01:58:16   just travel to see different communities that are,

01:58:19   that were further away that I'd never seen before. I took a couple of rides with,

01:58:22   with my neighbor and I don't have any issues seeing naked people.

01:58:27   It's the human body. It's fine. And people want to celebrate their body.

01:58:31   That's fine. Oh no, I was,

01:58:34   I did find it pretty awkward to watch two naked men playing badminton.

01:58:39   Interesting. There's a lot of jumping in badminton.

01:58:49   Yeah. That was my, uh, fire Island. Well, not fire Island specifically,

01:58:52   Robert Moses off of Robert Moses, not far down from Robert Moses,

01:58:55   which is a public beach. Uh,

01:58:57   you can very quickly find many nude beaches and I remember that from my childhood

01:59:02   too. And it's, yeah. Yeah. Cause I decided our very first trip, I'm like,

01:59:06   you know what, let's see if we can ride to the lighthouse,

01:59:08   which is the end of the, it's just like right next to Robert Moses.

01:59:10   You'll have to go through there. Yep. You pass a whole lot. And at first,

01:59:15   I think, you know, you see one out of the corner of your eye, like,

01:59:17   Oh, I think that person's naked. And then you start seeing, Oh, everyone's naked.

01:59:19   And then, and then you feel weird being the person on the bike who's like,

01:59:22   riding through, like, I shouldn't be here. I feel, I feel like I'm like,

01:59:26   I don't want to be like a tourist in the naked place. You know, I, I don't,

01:59:29   I don't want to like make anyone else feel uncomfortable.

01:59:30   Just keep your eyes down and keep walking. Yeah. Or biking. Yeah.

01:59:34   But the badminton that's,

01:59:35   that's something I think everybody either should ever see or should see once.

01:59:39   It doesn't even sound comfortable. You know what I mean? No, it's the thing.

01:59:44   Like I, I mean, good for them. You know, that's, I'm,

01:59:47   I'm happy for them that they're, they're willing to do that.

01:59:50   I feel like sometimes you need a little support. Yeah. I just, I would, I,

01:59:54   I would never choose a sport that involved so much jumping to do as,

01:59:58   as a naked man. For men and women,

02:00:01   men and women both sometimes need a little support when you're jumping. Anyway,

02:00:05   good thing we're talking about this for some reason.

02:00:07   They're not out there in the winter though. No, we,

02:00:10   this is not a very populous place in the winter.

02:00:14   It's too bad it wasn't,

02:00:15   hasn't been that cold get to the point where the bay freezes and you could just

02:00:18   walk across it.

02:00:19   Well, it's, yeah, it's, it's not, and it's not at that point now.

02:00:23   And we had to have the talk with Adam like, Hey,

02:00:25   never try to walk on the frozen bay cause you could fall through and die. Like,

02:00:28   that's, that was a fun talk to have. But, um, we, I don't know,

02:00:33   did I ever mention that I have,

02:00:34   that I bring Adam to school on an e-bike that looks kind of like an,

02:00:38   a yellow school bus version of an e-bike? No,

02:00:41   I thought he was taking the sand bus. No. So here's the thing.

02:00:45   There is bus service to bring him to the school from here. Uh, however,

02:00:49   they were saying earlier, like at the end of the summer,

02:00:52   when they were registering all the students, they were saying like,

02:00:54   because so many more students are here this year because of the virus and because

02:00:58   on the bus they had to have distancing available on the bus.

02:01:01   So they couldn't run the bus at the full capacity they had. They can only have,

02:01:03   like, you know,

02:01:03   one kid per seat or every two seats or something like that so that the kids are

02:01:06   spaced out enough.

02:01:08   They said that if like any more kids register for the school bus,

02:01:12   they would have to go to like a two cohort system of schooling of like, you know,

02:01:17   you only go on like a days or b days and the rest of the time you remote because

02:01:21   the buses were going to be too full. And so we said, all right, well,

02:01:24   we don't need the bus. We live within, we live about,

02:01:27   think about maybe three quarters of a mile to a mile away, something like that.

02:01:31   So we said, look, we can just take bikes and walk sometimes and it's fine.

02:01:36   And that worked out great until, you know,

02:01:39   winter happened. And then, you know,

02:01:42   we have situations where like it would be somewhat unsafe for us to ride our

02:01:46   like two regular bikes across this like slushy icy mile.

02:01:51   So anticipating this and then, you know, bad weather days, I got,

02:01:56   there we go. Yeah, it's the Rise RISE Blade.

02:01:59   This bike is, it's an electric sand bike, so it has the fat tires,

02:02:05   fat tires also work on snow and to some degree ice.

02:02:08   And so I wanted a way that I could drive Adam to school basically in bad weather

02:02:13   or in, in, you know,

02:02:15   colder snowy conditions that he could ride on the back because they don't,

02:02:18   they don't make electric sand bikes small enough for Adam to drive himself.

02:02:22   Believe me, I've looked, but, uh,

02:02:24   they do make this kind of like scrambler style electric sand bike that has a

02:02:29   long banana style seat so that you can have a passenger sitting behind you and it

02:02:33   has foot pegs and put their feet on and everything. So it's,

02:02:36   it's designed to have a passenger that's somebody relatively small like a child.

02:02:40   So I got this thing and I got it in yellow because it is basically our school

02:02:45   bus and yellow is the only color that was in stock at the end of the summer.

02:02:49   Different reasons. But so, so on bad weather days,

02:02:54   I drive Adam to school on this and we call it the bus even though it is an

02:02:58   electric sand bike and it works great.

02:03:00   And today was perfect for it because today the aforementioned snowstorm,

02:03:05   we had to ride through like six inches of flooded slush water and part of the

02:03:09   ride. Uh, and then, you know, the rest of the ride was pretty icy and you know,

02:03:14   snowy in the morning, rode this thing through it just fine.

02:03:17   Not it's not the first time we've done it. It works fantastically. And uh,

02:03:21   so yeah, this, we kind of have our own like fun, you know,

02:03:24   school adventure this year. Like, you know,

02:03:26   we're going to school at the beach full time and because we can't have a car,

02:03:31   we don't have the right kind of permit and probably won't be able to get one for

02:03:35   many years.

02:03:35   I had this weird electric sand bike that I drive my kid to school on sometimes

02:03:40   car wouldn't help you anyway because you don't have a roads that go up to your

02:03:43   house or would you put your car? No, the, the walks like the,

02:03:47   the big sidewalks that act as roads are wide enough for one car to just barely

02:03:51   fit down them. So some of the year round residents do have,

02:03:56   most of them actually have cars,

02:03:57   but you like you aren't allowed to keep the cars here in the summer cause there's

02:04:00   too many people around. But in the winter,

02:04:02   if you have one of the special permits,

02:04:03   you can keep a car as long as you have somewhere on your property that you can

02:04:07   park it. Anyway, so someday we might get a permit,

02:04:11   but that hasn't happened yet and we don't know when or if it will ever happen.

02:04:14   So in the meantime, I got this.

02:04:16   Now what people usually will do instead, uh, rather than electric sand bikes,

02:04:21   most of the people solve this problem by buying a golf cart, which we could do.

02:04:25   You don't need any special permits for that.

02:04:26   We could do that as long as we use it in the winter and not the summer. Uh,

02:04:29   but golf carts are very big and not that cheap and not that easy to get.

02:04:34   And I don't really like them that much.

02:04:38   Like an e-bike is so much more fun. Like there were,

02:04:41   there were a few times when in the fall they were some really rainy days and we

02:04:45   had some contractors doing some stuff in the house and one time they offered

02:04:48   like if I just wanted to borrow their golf carts,

02:04:50   you drive out into school in the heavy rain. I said, sure. Cause it had,

02:04:53   like it had like the roof and little side zip things. And I, you know,

02:04:56   I took that school and I had to keep like pulling over to the side to like let

02:04:59   other golf carts pass. And you know,

02:05:01   it was a big pain to have such a large vehicle. Whereas this thing, this,

02:05:06   this wonderful little e-bike,

02:05:07   you just kind of zip around everybody and it's great. It like you can fit

02:05:10   anywhere. You can, you can pull over really easily. You can,

02:05:13   you can ride up on the side of, you know, the little berm if you need to.

02:05:15   It takes no space to park it. It stores under the house easily. It's wonderful.

02:05:20   I'm very happy with this thing. I love the world of electric bikes.

02:05:25   I think it's wonderful and I think it's temporary before they classified as

02:05:29   motor vehicles by most States and you know,

02:05:31   become much more hard to say legally use. But in the, in the,

02:05:34   in the current time of them being this kind of weird in between thing that

02:05:36   regulators are mostly ignoring or it's going under their radar,

02:05:40   they're just wonderful. They're, they're delightful to ride.

02:05:42   It is not at all like riding a bike.

02:05:47   And if what you want to do is exercise with a bike,

02:05:51   this is not for you at all.

02:05:52   And this particular one is a terrible bike to try to pedal manually. Like,

02:05:56   because the, the seat is so wide,

02:05:58   you kind of have to have your knees like pointed outwards as opposed to straight

02:06:03   down. You know, it's, it's, it's a terrible bike to pedal manually.

02:06:06   And they're really heavy.

02:06:07   If you just kind of treat the pedals as a like technicality and just use the

02:06:12   thumb throttle, it's wonderful. And uh, yeah,

02:06:14   so most people don't need something like this, but if you do,

02:06:17   this is quite a fun thing.

02:06:18   That sounds like pretty much everything you ever buy.

02:06:20   I like that. It's got all these gears, but it's like,

02:06:24   do you really need all this mechanical advantage of the electric motor is doing

02:06:27   it for you? Yeah. I, I, again, I've tried pedaling this and I, so I,

02:06:31   and I have a different kind of e-bikes. I mentioned, I have two,

02:06:35   I have a different kind for the sand, a nice little, uh, Saunders one.

02:06:39   That is like a more traditional style seat and everything.

02:06:42   So like you can pedal that one manually. It's heavy.

02:06:47   And when I ride that on the beach,

02:06:48   I usually set the assist level down a little bit and I pedal along with it.

02:06:54   So that way I'm getting some exercise,

02:06:56   but I'm able to use the assist resistance level to control how much exercise I'm

02:07:01   needing to put into it. So like if I'm going through a really tough section,

02:07:04   I can amp it up a little bit. Um, or if, if I want more of a workout,

02:07:08   I can turn it down a little bit. This thing though, the rise blade,

02:07:11   but the big band of seat, you can't, you basically can't pedal it manually.

02:07:14   Like it's, it's so hard to do. It's so awkward. It's not at all made for that.

02:07:19   But if you need just something that is small, inexpensive and,

02:07:24   you know, street legal, almost, almost everywhere, including here, uh,

02:07:29   then that's, it's pretty great for that.

02:07:30   [BEEPING]