415: Sent Without Pants


00:00:00   - Boy, the British are gonna love this title.

00:00:01   - Yeah.

00:00:02   (laughing)

00:00:03   - They didn't even think about that.

00:00:04   - That's fine, they know how to, they do code switching.

00:00:07   - Oh, I'm on my Mac mini now.

00:00:11   I'm on my new setup.

00:00:14   My new, new, new setup.

00:00:15   So I kind of restored my iMac's installation onto this

00:00:20   with a few minor exceptions so it would fit,

00:00:23   but otherwise, it's mostly the iMac installation.

00:00:25   And I kind of regret doing that

00:00:29   because it's like I inherited all of the cruft

00:00:33   from my old desktop installation

00:00:34   and I had been using my nice clean, fresh install

00:00:38   on the MacBook Air as my only OS for,

00:00:42   I mean, what was that, like about a month and a half or so?

00:00:45   So I'm kind of like, oh, I kind of,

00:00:48   first of all, I kind of miss the MacBook Air as my primary

00:00:52   and there are some reasons why I'm gonna keep the Mac mini

00:00:55   as the primary for now, but I might do a clean install.

00:00:59   And honestly, going back to two computers again,

00:01:01   it is feeling a little bit more of a burden

00:01:05   than a worthwhile gain this time,

00:01:09   'cause they're so similar.

00:01:11   They're basically the same computer,

00:01:12   but now you just have more ports on it.

00:01:14   But the Thunderbolt docks were good enough

00:01:17   at the port thing that I don't necessarily need that,

00:01:22   but there are some reasons why I benefit

00:01:25   from having a desktop in our current situation in life

00:01:27   and what our household needs here.

00:01:30   So I am gonna keep it this way,

00:01:32   but honestly, the MacBook Air is so good

00:01:35   and so similar in its capabilities that I might,

00:01:40   I don't know, down the road,

00:01:42   we'll see how our needs change with,

00:01:45   we kind of have to share the podcasting equipment

00:01:47   and stuff like that, and so we have some certain needs here

00:01:50   that I really benefit from the desktop.

00:01:52   But it is really tempting to just go to one computer

00:01:56   and have that one computer just be that MacBook Air

00:01:57   because that's what I was doing for a while,

00:01:59   and it was fine, it was great.

00:02:01   So we'll see, we'll see what the future holds.

00:02:03   - It's fascinating to me that, Mr. I Hate Laptops,

00:02:07   I don't like laptops at all.

00:02:10   Give me my desktop, Pride for my Cold,

00:02:11   well, I guess that's more John on the give me my desktop,

00:02:13   Pride for my Cold Dead Hands part,

00:02:15   but you were very devout in your belief

00:02:17   that laptops were not really for you,

00:02:19   and here it is, one different CPU,

00:02:22   and suddenly the world has changed,

00:02:24   the skies have opened, the sun is shining down,

00:02:26   the angels are singing, it's a whole new world, Marco.

00:02:28   - I mean, in all fairness, it's a heck of a CPU.

00:02:31   (laughing)

00:02:33   It's no small change.

00:02:34   It's like when you go from Windows to Mac,

00:02:37   it's like, it's just an OS.

00:02:38   Like, that's kind of a big deal.

00:02:40   (laughing)

00:02:41   And yeah, so in this case,

00:02:43   like, it is a pretty important CPU change,

00:02:46   and I was reminded when you were like,

00:02:49   you're social, like, you hate laptops.

00:02:51   I remember that scene in Clerks,

00:02:54   like, I work at a video store,

00:02:56   but I wanna go to a good video store.

00:02:58   It's like, I hate crappy laptops.

00:03:01   Like, I don't hate good laptops.

00:03:04   This is a really good laptop.

00:03:06   It's the best laptop I've ever had.

00:03:08   - I don't even like good laptops, so.

00:03:10   - I know, that's fair, but really,

00:03:12   like, so much of what made laptops suck in the past

00:03:17   is either gone or greatly minimized with this one,

00:03:20   and a lot of that's temporary.

00:03:21   Like, there will presumably still be

00:03:25   a larger performance gap between desktops and laptops

00:03:28   once the desktops are all updated,

00:03:30   and that's why, like, this is kind of a unique time

00:03:32   to be a Mac user right now,

00:03:33   because right now, the best Mac they sell

00:03:37   is the MacBook Air.

00:03:39   That presumably won't be the case in six months, maybe,

00:03:43   or maybe less, maybe more.

00:03:45   But like, you know, as soon as they release the iMac,

00:03:47   probably, like, you know, whenever that's coming,

00:03:48   spring, summer, whenever it is,

00:03:49   like, that's probably gonna have whatever the M1X

00:03:53   or similar is, and that's probably gonna be faster,

00:03:57   and it's gonna have a lot of built-in ports,

00:03:59   and it's gonna have probably more GPU power,

00:04:01   and it's gonna have, you know,

00:04:03   like, the great new design and everything.

00:04:05   So like, certainly, the shine will wear off

00:04:08   on this, you know, basic, like, entry-level,

00:04:12   you know, M1 silicon, Apple Silicon Mac

00:04:15   once the newer higher-end ones come out.

00:04:18   And there will come a time where I will rationalize

00:04:20   upgrading to one of those, I'm sure.

00:04:22   - But you? - Yeah, right.

00:04:24   But like, right, that's why,

00:04:25   this is why I keep trying to sell people on the MacBook Air,

00:04:27   'cause like, it's such a cool thing right now

00:04:30   that the lowest-end laptop is the best laptop in the lineup.

00:04:34   Like, that's such a cool thing

00:04:35   that is almost never the case.

00:04:38   And really, for most of my needs,

00:04:40   it's like, all these M1 computers are totally fine.

00:04:44   I have yet to hear the fan in the Mac Mini.

00:04:47   And yeah, these are fantastic computers,

00:04:51   and it just makes me so excited that soon,

00:04:54   these are gonna be considered the low-end,

00:04:56   'cause the high-end is gonna be even better than these.

00:05:00   This is just such a great time to use a Mac.

00:05:02   - So actually, let me pull on that thread for a second.

00:05:05   Do you suspect that the high-end of any of these devices,

00:05:10   so I'm eliminating the Mac Pro, let's leave that aside,

00:05:13   because it's kind of its own weird one-off,

00:05:15   do you think the high-end Mac Mini,

00:05:17   do you think the high-end 16-inch MacBook Pro,

00:05:19   do you think they will be that much faster

00:05:22   than the things that are out now?

00:05:24   Because history and momentum makes me think,

00:05:28   sure, of course it would be considerably faster.

00:05:30   That's the way these things work.

00:05:31   But what if it's not?

00:05:33   What if the differences really do boil down

00:05:35   to just port configurations, and touch bars are not,

00:05:39   and screen sizes are not?

00:05:41   I mean, what if we end up with a real iPhoneification

00:05:45   of, let's say, the laptop line,

00:05:47   where really you're not choosing what processor,

00:05:50   you don't choose what processor you're getting in an iPhone,

00:05:53   you're choosing what screen size you want,

00:05:55   you're choosing whether or not,

00:05:56   or at least in years past,

00:05:57   you're choosing whether or not you want a home button,

00:05:58   and things of that nature.

00:06:00   Do you reckon that the next,

00:06:02   whatever the next processor is,

00:06:04   it will be a bump from the M1, and it won't be that big.

00:06:09   And even the top of the line,

00:06:11   even if there's like a brand new iMac Pro,

00:06:14   it's still powered by an M1 with maybe a couple more cores,

00:06:18   or some special sauce.

00:06:20   You know what I mean?

00:06:21   I don't know if it's still gonna be that way.

00:06:24   - I think what we're gonna see is single core performance

00:06:28   is probably gonna be pretty similar across every generation.

00:06:31   So M1 anything, M1X, M1, whatever,

00:06:34   however they make the chip bigger and wider

00:06:37   for the higher end models,

00:06:39   I suspect single threaded performance

00:06:41   is gonna be very similar across all of them.

00:06:43   They might clock the higher end ones a little bit higher,

00:06:45   'cause they'll have the thermal and power headroom to do it,

00:06:48   but ultimately I don't expect massive differences

00:06:51   in single threaded performance.

00:06:52   We're gonna see that same core

00:06:54   being used across the whole product line.

00:06:56   Then the question becomes how many of them?

00:06:58   How many high performance versus high efficiency cores

00:07:00   do you get?

00:07:01   And then the GPU power is the other big question mark.

00:07:04   And of course things like RAM sealing

00:07:06   might also be affected as we've discussed.

00:07:07   So I think ultimately we're gonna see

00:07:10   single core performance being very similar

00:07:12   across every model of a given chip year,

00:07:16   chip generation year, whatever it is.

00:07:19   But we will see, certainly like GPU stuff

00:07:22   is probably the easiest to scale,

00:07:25   because GPUs are very easy to scale.

00:07:28   You just give them more transistors and more heat

00:07:31   and more power and GPU performance scales up very easily.

00:07:35   And processor performance is close, up to a point.

00:07:41   You can add more high performance cores

00:07:43   and make this perform even better in parallel stuff.

00:07:46   But scaling the single threaded performance

00:07:49   is much harder and has, usually you hit ceilings

00:07:52   on that much faster than anything else.

00:07:55   Even, it gets to the point where even if you try

00:07:57   to clock it really, really, really high

00:07:59   and it sucks down tons of power,

00:08:01   you just get pretty diminishing returns pretty quickly

00:08:03   with that kind of thing.

00:08:04   So that's why I'm guessing we're gonna see

00:08:07   everything get wider, more cores, bigger GPU

00:08:11   with itself more cores, but probably not each one

00:08:16   being that much faster.

00:08:17   And if that's the future we see, or that we get,

00:08:20   then what's probably gonna happen is the higher end

00:08:25   machines and everything are gonna be very similar

00:08:29   in performance to the lower end machines

00:08:31   when you're not doing either high power GPU things

00:08:35   or very parallel tasks, which honestly is not that different

00:08:38   from the world that we're leaving with the Intel world.

00:08:40   That's largely where it got as well.

00:08:42   If you look at all the single threaded benchmarks

00:08:44   of Geekbench and everything else, most generations,

00:08:48   they improve the core occasionally, but for the most part,

00:08:50   single threaded performance doesn't change that much

00:08:51   between model families, 'cause that's just modern

00:08:54   chip design, thermals and stuff like that.

00:08:56   So I think largely the higher end machines

00:09:00   are gonna feel largely the same until you do something

00:09:04   like a video encode or something like that

00:09:06   where you're using massive parallel operations,

00:09:09   and then you'll probably see differences.

00:09:11   - This is what we've been talking about for a while

00:09:13   that we still don't know the answer to,

00:09:14   which is how much of an appetite does Apple have

00:09:16   to make things more exotic and weirder

00:09:19   for the higher end machines?

00:09:21   We just don't know, 'cause we've just got the low end ones,

00:09:22   and low end ones look so much like

00:09:24   the iPad chips essentially.

00:09:26   It's an open question as to how invested Apple

00:09:30   is going to be into really ringing out the power

00:09:34   from these things.

00:09:35   And I agree with everything Marco said.

00:09:36   The interesting part here though, as compared

00:09:39   to the Intel world that we were coming from,

00:09:41   and in fact on the Intel world, remember that

00:09:43   the higher end you got, the worse single core performance

00:09:46   got, because when you get the 28 cores in there,

00:09:47   they couldn't clock the single ones to match.

00:09:49   The fastest single core one was the iMac

00:09:51   with the low number of cores, because then you could

00:09:54   crank the speed up, but anyway.

00:09:56   In terms of what you can do to single core performance,

00:10:00   the advantage that the ARM chips have,

00:10:02   doesn't mean Apple's gonna take advantage of it,

00:10:03   but the advantage they have is they're so far below

00:10:06   the cooling potential that we know the size

00:10:10   of the class of an iMac has in it,

00:10:12   that Apple has actually the option to really turn

00:10:16   the screws on it and crank it up to an absurd degree,

00:10:18   because they're like, look, we've got this giant case.

00:10:22   We know we can put huge fans in there

00:10:24   that aren't actually that loud.

00:10:26   We have so much headroom, even if it's like Marco said,

00:10:30   it's going to be diminishing returns.

00:10:31   It's not a linear ramp, but it's like,

00:10:33   well, we've got all this headroom,

00:10:35   and are we really going to essentially make a fanless iMac?

00:10:38   We could, because if the case is so big

00:10:41   and you could just put a big passive heat sink in there,

00:10:43   and it would probably be fine, or an iMac with a fan

00:10:45   that you literally never heard, like the current M1

00:10:49   MacBook Pro and Mac Mini, but if Apple has an appetite

00:10:53   to really take it as high as they can on a high-end iMac,

00:10:57   whether it's called the iMac Pro or not,

00:10:59   you could also really just turn it up as far as it'll go.

00:11:04   Make an M something CPU that uses as much power

00:11:09   as the outgoing Intel model.

00:11:11   And that'll be a massive, like not overclocking,

00:11:14   but a massive increase in thermal headroom for the ship.

00:11:18   And I don't know where it tops out.

00:11:21   It's not like you can just keep making the clock speed

00:11:22   faster and faster and it'll just run forever, right?

00:11:25   Because we don't know a lot of details

00:11:27   like the pipeline depth and stuff like that of these chips,

00:11:29   but that's what I'm gonna be looking at

00:11:31   is sort of get Apple's philosophy.

00:11:34   Are they going to say we're gonna take

00:11:35   the thermal headroom win across all our models?

00:11:37   That's the most important thing to us.

00:11:39   Like basically, you should not be able to tell

00:11:40   that any Mac has a fan.

00:11:42   They can do that, and it will be exactly like Marco said,

00:11:45   where single core will be about the same,

00:11:46   multi-core will be scaling mostly linearly

00:11:49   with the number of cores if you have a highly parallel task,

00:11:52   bigger GPUs, and the philosophy,

00:11:55   kind of like the iPad 10-hour battery life,

00:11:57   will be, oh, Macs, you shouldn't hear their fans anymore.

00:12:00   Another philosophy is whatever case we have,

00:12:03   whatever thermal headroom is there,

00:12:05   if we can dissipate 200 watts of heat,

00:12:07   we're going to dissipate 200 watts of heat,

00:12:10   and we will do whatever it takes to generate 200 watts.

00:12:13   We'll make a bigger GPU, we'll increase the clock speed,

00:12:17   we'll add more cores or whatever,

00:12:18   because hey, we've got 200 watts.

00:12:20   Let's just do it, right?

00:12:22   And until Apple lands their first non-entry level

00:12:27   ARM-based Mac, we just don't know

00:12:31   what their philosophy is gonna be.

00:12:33   So, exciting times coming.

00:12:35   - Indeed.

00:12:36   All right, we should move on with some follow-up.

00:12:39   We have gotten so much feedback

00:12:42   about Marco's ethernet problem,

00:12:44   my eyes are spinning in my head.

00:12:47   Everyone is, and as with our feedback often goes,

00:12:51   everyone is unequivocally convinced they are correct,

00:12:54   and generally speaking, they are unequivocally convinced

00:12:56   that we are incorrect, which both of those things

00:12:58   are quite possibly true.

00:12:59   However, everyone seems to disagree with everyone else,

00:13:02   as far as I'm concerned.

00:13:04   So, I don't even know what's real.

00:13:06   I'm not even gonna touch this.

00:13:07   So, Jon, I guess, do you wanna tell me what's going on here?

00:13:10   - Sure, I think the biggest correction from last week

00:13:13   is the T568A versus T568B.

00:13:17   A lot of people wrote into bust myths about that,

00:13:20   myths that were in that article that we linked

00:13:22   and talked about in the last show.

00:13:24   And I think that, from the people who know,

00:13:26   it's pretty conclusive.

00:13:27   The difference between A and B

00:13:29   is which colored pairs of wires are on which pins,

00:13:32   and that's the only difference.

00:13:34   And as many people pointed out,

00:13:36   electrons don't know what color the insulation is.

00:13:38   So, the supposed performance and reliability

00:13:43   and interference resistance properties of B

00:13:47   are nonexistent, there is none.

00:13:49   They are electrically exactly identical,

00:13:51   'cause again, the electrons don't know

00:13:52   what color things are.

00:13:53   Now, there are two different wiring standards,

00:13:56   and you shouldn't mix them up with each other

00:13:57   because you'll mess things up

00:13:59   and accidentally make crossover cables

00:14:00   where you're not supposed to, and all that stuff is true.

00:14:02   But that article, which was very highly ranked in Google,

00:14:05   which is how it ended up in our show notes,

00:14:07   and many people who, many similar articles

00:14:09   that tout the supposed benefits of B,

00:14:13   those are just, it's entirely a myth, right?

00:14:15   They're electrically identical.

00:14:17   - I'm so happy to hear this.

00:14:19   'Cause when I read the article,

00:14:20   and I was looking at the wiring diagram between A and B,

00:14:24   I was like, why is it, what's the difference?

00:14:26   'Cause I noticed, okay, it says pairs,

00:14:29   you know, which pair is split,

00:14:30   like pair number one, pair number three, whatever.

00:14:33   But it's like, it looks like, why would this be different?

00:14:36   And I assumed that maybe the pairs themselves

00:14:41   are not twisted around each other.

00:14:43   - They're not the same, yeah.

00:14:45   - If pair one is diagonally across from pair three

00:14:48   versus next to pair three, but I'm like,

00:14:50   that's probably not how they do this.

00:14:53   But I was looking at it thinking,

00:14:55   there must be something about this

00:14:56   that I'm not understanding,

00:14:57   'cause I don't see why this would be different.

00:15:00   - Yeah, and I don't know how this myth propagated.

00:15:02   Probably because B was the new one, right?

00:15:05   Like, oh, you don't, you know,

00:15:06   when we do it for networking stuff,

00:15:08   we do it the B style versus the A.

00:15:10   And again, I wanna stress,

00:15:12   if you don't pay attention to this,

00:15:13   and make like one end A and one end B,

00:15:15   and then just like it's random throughout your thing,

00:15:17   like nothing will work right.

00:15:18   Like, don't do that, right?

00:15:19   You do want to pick one and stick to it,

00:15:21   but whichever one it is, it absolutely doesn't matter.

00:15:23   Now, speaking of weird myth stuffs,

00:15:25   in my like looking at more research on this

00:15:29   and YouTube videos, because Marco mentioned

00:15:31   the weird like cat seven connectors,

00:15:33   and I wanted to see what the heck are these connectors.

00:15:35   I watched a bunch of videos on cat six versus cat seven

00:15:38   versus cat eight, and what the differences are,

00:15:39   and how to make the connectors and everything.

00:15:42   At one point, one of the people who seemed like

00:15:44   they knew what they were talking about,

00:15:46   'cause they, you know, they, you know,

00:15:48   were showing how to make the connectors

00:15:49   and giving all these tips, whatever they said,

00:15:52   they did one of the cables,

00:15:53   I think it was like in cat eight, or maybe it was cat seven,

00:15:55   that they changed the colors around.

00:15:57   So in the ethernet cables that most of us have in our home,

00:16:00   if you open them up, there's like a green wire,

00:16:04   and then there's a wire that has green and white stripes,

00:16:06   and they twist with each other.

00:16:08   So it's the green wire paired with the green

00:16:10   and white wire, right?

00:16:11   And so it's like, the green and white wire

00:16:13   is like green, white, green, white,

00:16:14   in little sections all the way down, right?

00:16:16   And the guy says in the video

00:16:19   that in whatever this higher standard was

00:16:20   that supports higher speeds, he said,

00:16:22   "You'll notice that it's not a green wire

00:16:25   and a green and white wire anymore,

00:16:26   it's just a green wire and a white wire."

00:16:29   Which is tricky, but he was like,

00:16:30   "Here's the technique I used not to get them mixed up,

00:16:32   because basically every colored wire

00:16:34   has its own corresponding white wire.

00:16:36   So there's the white wire that goes with the green wire,

00:16:38   then the white wire that goes with the blue wire,

00:16:39   then the white wire that goes with the red wire, right?

00:16:41   And the white wires are indistinguishable from each other.

00:16:43   So he's saying like when you're making the connector,

00:16:46   bend them in like this direction

00:16:47   so they don't get them mixed up with each other.

00:16:49   And he mentioned offhand, by the way,

00:16:52   the reason they got rid of the striping,

00:16:53   which seems like a good idea

00:16:54   so you don't mess them up in that way,

00:16:56   was because apparently printing the stripes

00:16:58   on the insulation caused interference problems.

00:17:01   - What? (laughs)

00:17:02   - And now I'm like, oh wait,

00:17:03   this is like 568 A versus B again?

00:17:06   Printing, like, do the electrons know what color is it?

00:17:10   Does the printing process change the insulation in some way?

00:17:13   And so I don't know if he was just pulling my leg

00:17:16   with very dry humor or anyway.

00:17:18   Obviously none of us are networking experts,

00:17:22   but our toe dip into the world of networking

00:17:24   has revealed all sorts of strange myths and urban legends,

00:17:27   and it's very uncomfortable.

00:17:29   - It seems like, again, I don't know anything about this,

00:17:32   but I would guess, I mean,

00:17:34   unless the ink itself was conductive and grounded.

00:17:38   - Or like the process of stamping the ink,

00:17:42   it doesn't make any sense.

00:17:43   - The only thing I can think of is

00:17:44   if the ink has some thickness to it,

00:17:47   and then maybe it's spacing out the twisted pair

00:17:51   every time it passes a stripe.

00:17:53   - I'm fine, how much, how thick is the ink?

00:17:55   - But then if you think,

00:17:56   the twisted pairs have to untwist

00:18:00   for some kind of short amount of distance at each connector.

00:18:04   And obviously you try to minimize that distance

00:18:05   to keep noise low and try to keep bandwidth high

00:18:09   and minimize cross-talk and all that other stuff.

00:18:12   But I have to imagine whatever amount that you,

00:18:15   whatever amount of signal degradation you'd be introducing

00:18:18   by just having a connector on the end of the wire

00:18:21   with that very slight amount of untwisting of the pairs

00:18:23   would have to be greater than whatever the ink printing

00:18:27   on the wire could possibly do.

00:18:30   - And on the flip side of that, though,

00:18:32   why would you ever make this change?

00:18:34   Because as the person was talking about

00:18:36   when making the connector,

00:18:37   when you're sort of separating the wires from each other,

00:18:39   you have to be really careful not to get the whites mixed up.

00:18:42   Like if you just have them as a big bundle of wire,

00:18:43   like wait, did this white one go with the green one?

00:18:45   And then you gotta take out your continuity tester

00:18:47   and figure it out again or whatever.

00:18:48   The system of having green with the green and white

00:18:50   and blue with the blue and white,

00:18:52   that's a good system for matching them up, right?

00:18:54   - Well, I would argue, though,

00:18:56   if you get the whites mixed up,

00:18:58   you have probably untwisted too much of distance of the wire.

00:19:02   Because again, you're supposed to try and minimize

00:19:03   the amount that you untwist

00:19:05   to make the connectors and stuff.

00:19:06   So I think if you have lost track of which whites

00:19:11   were twisted around which ones,

00:19:12   you've probably untwisted too long of a section.

00:19:15   - Well, I mean, it's like when you're trying

00:19:16   to put them on the pins, you know what I mean?

00:19:18   Like you've got the eight wires

00:19:19   sprayed out in front of you and they're all in order,

00:19:21   but then two of the whites get crossed over each other.

00:19:23   And of course, remember the twisted pairs

00:19:24   are themselves twisted around each other, right?

00:19:26   Through the length of the wire.

00:19:28   - Are they?

00:19:28   I didn't know that.

00:19:29   - Yes, they are.

00:19:30   So it's, anyway, I don't know the answer to this.

00:19:34   Networking is weird.

00:19:35   A versus B, there are no performance differences,

00:19:37   but you do need to know which one you're doing

00:19:39   and just stick to it.

00:19:40   - Oh my.

00:19:43   And here we are continuing with ethernet follow-up.

00:19:45   Travis P. writes, "The PowerBook G4 Titanium

00:19:47   also had auto-sensing ethernet.

00:19:50   I bought one in April of 2001,

00:19:51   which is before the original Xbox One,

00:19:54   One X, Xbox Box X release.

00:19:57   So the TiBook was January 9th of 2001.

00:20:00   The original Xbox November 15th of 2001."

00:20:03   - I just thought that was interesting,

00:20:04   but Margaret's point still stands.

00:20:05   The device that most people had

00:20:07   that first had auto-sensing ethernet

00:20:08   was surely the Xbox and not the TiBook.

00:20:10   - Right, well, 'cause at the time,

00:20:11   if I remember correctly, auto-sensing,

00:20:14   I think it's part of the gigabit standard.

00:20:16   So I think all gigabit jacks have always had auto-sensing.

00:20:19   At least that's how it seems to have worked out.

00:20:21   But at the time, not everybody had gigabit stuff

00:20:24   and the Xbox didn't either.

00:20:25   It was a 100 megabit port that supported auto-sensing.

00:20:29   And that was a very unusual combination.

00:20:31   Usually back then, your choices were 100 megabit NICs

00:20:34   and stuff that didn't have auto-sensing,

00:20:36   or the more expensive, you know,

00:20:38   like 50 or $60 gigabit equipment

00:20:41   that would all have auto-sensing.

00:20:42   So that's why I think it was weird to,

00:20:45   or at least unusual to have a 100 megabit thing

00:20:48   in the Xbox that had auto-sensing.

00:20:50   - All right, Ted Barnes writes,

00:20:51   "The 30-inch Apple Cinnamon display

00:20:53   "was very impressive at the time for print design.

00:20:56   "At 30 inches, designers could design

00:20:57   "a full magazine spread at 100%

00:20:59   "with room to spare for toolbars and panels

00:21:01   "for the very first time.

00:21:02   "That was huge."

00:21:03   That's a good pun.

00:21:04   - It was huge.

00:21:05   - It was huge.

00:21:07   "The Apple monitors, the Cinnamon display included,

00:21:09   "are also known for their stellar color fidelity.

00:21:11   "Most print shops would only guarantee color matching

00:21:13   "when using calibrated Apple monitors

00:21:15   "using their custom press color profiles.

00:21:17   "The print world ran on Cinnamon displays

00:21:19   "for over a decade from design

00:21:20   "through pre-press and printing."

00:21:22   You know, even though this,

00:21:25   I don't have a lot of energy to care about

00:21:27   the 30-inch Cinnamon display from way back when,

00:21:29   it is interesting to me that Apple really did

00:21:32   cater to these kinds of professionals

00:21:36   in a way that I don't think they do anymore.

00:21:39   And yeah, you can make a really solid argument

00:21:41   that who cares about print professionals

00:21:43   because print is a dying, to some degree, dying art.

00:21:46   You know, not a lot of people I know

00:21:48   get newspapers every day, for example.

00:21:50   But I think the point is still interesting

00:21:52   that it seems like Apple would do things

00:21:56   that one could argue were explicitly directed

00:22:00   at certain professions.

00:22:02   And I don't really see them doing a lot of that anymore.

00:22:06   And when they do it with your guys' ridiculous

00:22:08   $90,000 monitors, it doesn't seem like it's enough.

00:22:12   Like it seems like all the real true professionals

00:22:14   that are really truly wanting, what is it,

00:22:16   reference monitors, that they're still not buying

00:22:18   Pro Display XDRs.

00:22:20   Do we care about this?

00:22:21   I mean, it seems like it's a bummer to me.

00:22:22   - I mean, we know that they let the ball drop

00:22:25   on the pro market, right?

00:22:26   That's why they had to reverse course, right?

00:22:29   Which they're doing.

00:22:29   But in general, I think, ignoring the big dip

00:22:33   and neglecting the market,

00:22:34   it's the same situation that it's always been.

00:22:36   That Apple serves those markets in the way that,

00:22:40   I mean, how did it get that market in the first place?

00:22:42   It serves them by basically making a platform

00:22:46   that fundamentally has foundational technologies

00:22:51   that are suited to the platform.

00:22:52   So to give an example in this case,

00:22:55   or that are suited to the profession,

00:22:57   color matching, color fidelity, color sync,

00:22:59   like Apple made an OS level system framework technology API

00:23:04   for doing color calibration and matching.

00:23:09   And that was back in the classic Mac OS days.

00:23:11   And that's a thing that you could say,

00:23:14   well, who cares about color calibration?

00:23:16   Well, all of the print people do, right?

00:23:18   But that feature benefits everybody.

00:23:20   Having computers that are able to control

00:23:25   and deal with color on more than just guesswork,

00:23:29   like actually having color profiles

00:23:31   and having it be system-wide

00:23:32   and having it woven throughout the entire OS

00:23:36   benefits everybody who uses an Apple computer.

00:23:38   Most people don't care as much as the print people do,

00:23:42   but everyone benefits from it.

00:23:44   And if you think back to this era,

00:23:46   looking at your friend's PC versus your other friend's PC,

00:23:49   the colors could be all over the place

00:23:51   because it's a PC, whatever.

00:23:52   You connect the monitor, you connect the video card,

00:23:54   the color is what you get.

00:23:54   Like who knows about color calibration?

00:23:56   And it certainly wasn't baked into Windows, right?

00:23:58   But it was baked into Mac OS.

00:24:00   That's true of almost every feature that the Mac has,

00:24:02   proportional fonts, the retina as an example,

00:24:06   and the UI scaling.

00:24:07   Like there's tons of things that Apple builds in

00:24:10   to the foundation to benefit ostensibly,

00:24:13   oh, just people who care about this

00:24:15   and whatever weird market,

00:24:16   but everybody gets the benefits, right?

00:24:18   So part of the reason we like using Macs

00:24:20   is they have all sorts of nice things in high quality

00:24:23   above and beyond what we need.

00:24:24   I mean, hell, that's the entire,

00:24:26   all of our computers, maybe probably including Casey,

00:24:29   are more than we need.

00:24:31   And that's why we like them,

00:24:33   because they do give us way more

00:24:35   than the bare minimum that we need.

00:24:37   And though we don't need to have

00:24:40   all of this extra color fidelity,

00:24:42   or I don't need 1600 nits and the way retina works,

00:24:46   maybe we don't need that high DPI to look at text

00:24:49   in a code window or something,

00:24:51   but we enjoy it and like it and benefit from it

00:24:53   in sort of an ambient way, right?

00:24:55   So Apple at its best,

00:24:58   that's how they get those markets in the first place.

00:25:00   That's why desktop publishing came up on the Mac.

00:25:03   And that's how they keep them.

00:25:04   They lose them by just neglecting to give that market

00:25:08   what they really need.

00:25:09   We're not gonna make a tower computer for you anymore.

00:25:11   We're gonna stop making monitors,

00:25:13   you know, you take it or leave it, right?

00:25:15   And that's how you lose the market, right?

00:25:17   But you get it back by continuing to do things

00:25:21   like make an FPGA, a weird custom FPGA card

00:25:26   that is literally only useful for people doing

00:25:28   a particular kind of video and building support for it

00:25:32   into your video app that's for professional video editors

00:25:35   that you ship on your 1600 nit XDR display, yada yada.

00:25:39   - Christopher Klein writes,

00:25:40   "I never thought listening to a tech podcast

00:25:42   would change my life, but thank you.

00:25:43   As a 39 year old paramedic,

00:25:44   I knew I had moderate hearing loss from almost 20 years

00:25:48   of occupational exposure to sirens and other loud noises.

00:25:51   I followed your instructions to use Mimi

00:25:52   to create an audiogram in the health app,

00:25:54   used audio accommodations with my AirPods Pro

00:25:56   and started playing music.

00:25:57   I nearly wept.

00:25:58   What an amazing difference it makes."

00:26:00   I should try this.

00:26:01   I don't feel like I have hearing loss,

00:26:02   but I should still try this.

00:26:04   - Yeah, I made a profile for myself.

00:26:07   I mean, you want, in some respects you're like,

00:26:11   I want the feel good story too.

00:26:13   But in other respects you're like,

00:26:14   I don't want to have hearing loss.

00:26:15   But that's the thing about these accessibility options

00:26:18   as we've said many times.

00:26:19   Accessibility is for everyone, including you,

00:26:22   if you live long enough and the alternative is worse.

00:26:25   So your choice is death

00:26:26   or you're going to use accessibility features.

00:26:29   So you may need them now and you might not know it

00:26:33   because you think, oh, I'm not an old person.

00:26:34   I don't have any hearing loss, but try it out.

00:26:36   Is this a thing built in?

00:26:38   This is another example of like serving the market

00:26:41   of people who need accessibility features.

00:26:42   That benefits everybody.

00:26:44   Eventually it literally will benefit everybody

00:26:46   again if you stay alive.

00:26:47   But even people who are young and healthy

00:26:50   and have no accessibility issues

00:26:51   and perfect hearing and perfect vision and everything,

00:26:54   they also benefit from having an OS

00:26:56   that supports these kinds of features.

00:26:58   Even if it's just preference,

00:26:59   they're like, hey, I can make the text bigger.

00:27:00   Not because I can't see it,

00:27:01   but that's just because that's what I prefer.

00:27:03   Or dark mode, which has some accessibility benefits.

00:27:06   Maybe you just like dark mode because it's cool.

00:27:08   So just like those pro features,

00:27:10   accessibility features can benefit everybody.

00:27:13   Say you have some hearing loss.

00:27:16   And when I took the test, I tried two different apps.

00:27:18   I did the Mimi one and I did another one

00:27:19   'cause I thought the Mimi test was difficult to do.

00:27:22   But I tried a different testing app

00:27:23   that was a little bit more conclusive.

00:27:26   But either way, they showed that my hearing wasn't perfect,

00:27:29   but they both rated me as you don't have hearing loss.

00:27:31   They did still make a profile for me

00:27:33   and I listened with the profile

00:27:35   and I really couldn't detect much of a difference.

00:27:37   Like if you look at my little curves,

00:27:39   I'm assuming it's sort of like frequency sensitivity.

00:27:41   I think it's just sort of like the expected curve.

00:27:45   Like it wasn't perfect.

00:27:46   It would have been better if I took it when I was 18,

00:27:47   but all of them chunked you into like percentages

00:27:52   or whatever when I was in like the 90 something percent.

00:27:53   So the profile did not sound that different

00:27:56   than regular audio to me.

00:27:58   But who knows?

00:28:00   You won't know until you try it.

00:28:01   (upbeat music)

00:28:02   - We are sponsored this week by LickAbility.

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00:29:42   Thank you so much to LickAbility for sponsoring our show.

00:29:46   - Dan Riccio begins a new chapter at Apple.

00:29:52   This was a very unusual press release

00:29:56   which I certainly did not expect.

00:29:58   I mean, we don't typically hear about these sorts

00:30:01   of machinations in advance, but this is weird.

00:30:04   So it's Riccio, Riccio, how am I supposed to pronounce this?

00:30:09   I'm probably getting it wrong, aren't I?

00:30:10   - I tried to look this up before the show.

00:30:11   I'm like, surely his name has been pronounced in a WWDC video

00:30:15   but A, I couldn't find anything.

00:30:17   I was trying to use Apple's transcript search

00:30:19   and that was just totally failing me.

00:30:21   And B, I realized that half the time

00:30:23   it's just like Tim says and now here's Dan.

00:30:26   Right, he never pronounces the last name.

00:30:29   So from the press release, Apple today announced

00:30:32   that old Danny boy will transition to a new role

00:30:34   focusing on a new project and reporting to CEO Tim Cook,

00:30:37   building on more than two decades of innovation,

00:30:39   service and leadership at Apple.

00:30:40   John Turnus will now lead Apple's hardware engineering

00:30:43   organization as a member of the executive team.

00:30:46   This press release was a little weird.

00:30:47   It seemed to bounce back and forth between Dan and John,

00:30:51   but I guess what we're gleaning from this is that

00:30:55   Dan is going into a bunker and will only come out

00:30:58   when something new has emerged,

00:31:00   or at least that's kind of what I took from it.

00:31:01   What did you guys take from this?

00:31:03   - I took the same thing as you did.

00:31:04   I mean, it doesn't sound like Dan Ritchie

00:31:07   was being promoted into the sky or onto the roof.

00:31:09   It sounds like he actually is going,

00:31:13   not reducing his role but simply changing it.

00:31:18   And that makes sense.

00:31:21   I mean, I don't know that much about

00:31:24   the various machinations, how do you pronounce that?

00:31:28   (laughing)

00:31:30   Of this area of Apple, but I don't think

00:31:34   Dan Ritchie would be slated for retirement yet

00:31:36   or anything like that, or have any reason

00:31:39   to be pushed out or anything like that.

00:31:40   So I don't think this is any kind of negative thing

00:31:43   in all likelihood, that seems unlikely.

00:31:45   So it is most likely that they're actually

00:31:48   not BSing us with this wording,

00:31:50   and that he actually is just going to something

00:31:53   super secret and therefore having to give up

00:31:55   the fairly broad role that he had.

00:31:58   It would be hard to continue in the role he had,

00:32:02   which was kind of above all hardware,

00:32:06   if what he was actually doing was going to do something,

00:32:09   some kind of big new hardware thing

00:32:10   that was one specific product.

00:32:12   And that's basically what they're saying here.

00:32:14   And we can debate what that product might be.

00:32:17   It seems obvious that it's most likely

00:32:19   either a car or the AR stuff.

00:32:22   But honestly, I'm not even sure how much

00:32:24   that matters right at this point.

00:32:25   But I do actually believe this press release

00:32:29   and the way they have spun this,

00:32:32   I think sounds like it's probably fairly accurate

00:32:35   and not a bad thing.

00:32:37   He's changing what he's focusing on.

00:32:41   - Nick, given that he's not becoming a fellow

00:32:44   or being phased out or whatever,

00:32:48   it is difficult to get a read on this,

00:32:49   but, and also knowing nothing about what's going on

00:32:52   inside the company.

00:32:53   It does seem to me that this is not a promotion for Dan.

00:32:58   Now I can be totally wrong.

00:33:00   It's hard to tell from the press release,

00:33:03   but being in charge of lots of stuff

00:33:06   actually is mostly like the latter, right?

00:33:11   The more stuff you're in charge of,

00:33:12   the higher you are on the ladder.

00:33:14   Tim Cook is in charge of everything.

00:33:15   He's at the top, right?

00:33:17   So being in charge of all hardware,

00:33:20   I mean, that seems bigger than working on

00:33:23   even a very important project.

00:33:25   Now that said, that's a very sort of mercenary way

00:33:29   to look at things, and maybe if you've been in the company

00:33:32   for a long time, what you wanna do is work on

00:33:34   the super cool new project, right?

00:33:35   Even if it's just the one thing.

00:33:36   You have less responsibility,

00:33:38   you're in charge of fewer things,

00:33:42   but maybe that's just what you wanna do.

00:33:44   Dan Ritchie has nothing to prove to anybody.

00:33:45   He's been there a long time.

00:33:47   He's been wildly successful and has overseen

00:33:50   tons of great products and everything,

00:33:51   and maybe this is just what he wants to do.

00:33:53   This is the type of thing you don't get

00:33:54   from a press release.

00:33:54   We don't know what the actual situation is, right?

00:33:57   But it still seemed to me in the absence

00:33:59   of any other information that maybe this is not really,

00:34:04   you did such a great job, now you get to be

00:34:07   heavily involved in this new project for VR goggles

00:34:10   or a car or whatever the heck it's gonna be.

00:34:13   But that's not really what I took from this thing.

00:34:15   Casey asked, "What did you take from this?"

00:34:16   The main thing I took from it is that John Turnus

00:34:19   is going to be the new Dan, right?

00:34:22   He's gonna be taking over Apple hardware engineering.

00:34:24   He's gonna be on the leadership page,

00:34:25   he's on the executive team.

00:34:28   And John Turnus is a name that I just started hearing

00:34:31   basically when the Mac stuff was turning around.

00:34:33   So I know very little about him other than

00:34:36   when I started hearing his name,

00:34:37   good things started happening to the Mac.

00:34:40   And I care a lot about the Mac,

00:34:41   and so I am very in favor based on

00:34:44   the small amount of information I have

00:34:46   of John Turnus being in charge

00:34:48   of Apple's hardware engineering.

00:34:49   This potentially ties into last week's show

00:34:52   and maybe even this week's show.

00:34:54   We went through a litany of rumors,

00:34:55   all of which were like wish fulfillment

00:34:57   for this podcast for Apple hardware, right?

00:34:59   So, yay John Turnus, I think.

00:35:02   Go John Turnus, I like you, it's good, keep doing that.

00:35:07   And on the flip side of that,

00:35:08   Dan Riccio was head of hardware

00:35:11   when a lot of bad things happened to hardware

00:35:13   that I care about at Apple.

00:35:14   Now, again, he was also in charge

00:35:17   when tons of awesome stuff happened,

00:35:18   but if you're going to try to assign blame

00:35:21   for dropping the ball on the Mac

00:35:23   or bad things happening,

00:35:26   the person in charge, like fair or not,

00:35:29   shoulders some of that responsibility.

00:35:31   Even if the person in charge disagreed

00:35:34   or was fed bad information or whatever,

00:35:36   it wasn't his fault, like in the end it is your fault,

00:35:38   you're the person in charge,

00:35:39   like that's the way it works, right?

00:35:40   That's why you can blame Tim Cook for all that stuff too,

00:35:42   because in the end he was the CEO

00:35:43   and they shipped the butterfly keyboard, right?

00:35:45   So that's on him, just as much as it's on anyone else, right?

00:35:48   So the higher you are in the org chart,

00:35:50   the more responsibility you bear for the bad decisions,

00:35:52   even if they happen 20 levels below you.

00:35:54   So I don't know what the fancy new project is,

00:35:58   but I'm enthusiastic about the future of Apple hardware

00:36:04   based on, again, the tiny circumstantial information

00:36:07   I have from the outside about John Turnus

00:36:10   and what has happened since I've been hearing his name.

00:36:12   Throughout his nearly 20 years at Apple,

00:36:14   Turnus has overseen hardware engineering work

00:36:16   on a variety of groundbreaking products,

00:36:17   including the first generation AirPods

00:36:19   and every generation of iPad.

00:36:21   Most recently, Turnus led the hardware team responsible

00:36:23   for the incredible iPhone 12 and iPhone 12 Pro,

00:36:26   and he's been a key leader in the ongoing transition

00:36:28   of the Mac to Apple Silicon.

00:36:30   Turnus graduated with, whatever.

00:36:32   So basically it doesn't sound based on what they put

00:36:36   in the press release that he was that much into the Mac

00:36:39   until Apple Silicon,

00:36:40   but I'm not arguing with anything you're saying, John.

00:36:42   It's surely more than meets the eye.

00:36:44   - The wild card in all this too is like,

00:36:46   the way Apple's organized,

00:36:48   and especially with the people involved

00:36:50   in the past decade or two,

00:36:52   it's never been clear to me exactly how much control,

00:36:58   let's say, the senior vice president

00:37:00   of Apple hardware engineering has

00:37:02   over what makes the product, right?

00:37:05   So when Johnny Ive was rattling around in there,

00:37:10   he was swinging a lot of weight, right?

00:37:14   If Johnny Ive insists that your MacBooks only have USB-C

00:37:17   ports on them and you get rid of MagSafe,

00:37:20   does even the senior vice president

00:37:22   of hardware engineering have the ability to override that?

00:37:24   Is that more of a product decision

00:37:26   and the hardware engineering is not at that,

00:37:29   is that not something that you can control?

00:37:31   I don't know how that decision making works.

00:37:33   I don't know how product design happens at Apple.

00:37:36   Surely hardware and software and design

00:37:38   are all involved together,

00:37:39   but who is the final decision maker in those things?

00:37:42   I feel like when Johnny was there,

00:37:44   he was the one, the end all be all.

00:37:47   It was like him and then Tim Cook,

00:37:48   especially when he was put in charge of software,

00:37:50   UI and hardware and design and stuff like that.

00:37:53   But now that he's out, I don't know how that balance works.

00:37:57   So should we be blaming anybody in hardware engineering

00:38:00   for the butterfly keyboard?

00:38:01   Or is that something that was a decision made above them?

00:38:04   Right?

00:38:05   'Cause again, the higher up you are,

00:38:07   the more responsibility you have.

00:38:08   Maybe the butterfly keyboard was a Johnny decision

00:38:10   and maybe Dan Riccio hated it

00:38:12   and just had to go along with it because that was the way.

00:38:15   And eventually it got reversed when he left, who knows?

00:38:18   That's why I would love to read a book about Apple

00:38:20   when all these people retire.

00:38:20   Somebody please write a book.

00:38:22   We had Ken Kachenda's book

00:38:25   about the software part of things.

00:38:27   And I mean, not that it was disappointing,

00:38:31   I thought it was great, but doing software for a living

00:38:34   gives me a reasonable feel for how software works

00:38:37   in any company and reading the book confirms that yeah,

00:38:39   even though they do things a little bit differently there,

00:38:41   software is software and that's how that comes together.

00:38:44   But I've never been a product designer as in like,

00:38:47   we're gonna make a hardware thing

00:38:49   and it's gonna have a software component

00:38:50   and we're gonna figure out how to do market fit

00:38:52   and what should we price it at

00:38:53   and what kind of things should we make

00:38:55   and what features should it have.

00:38:56   I would love to know how that has happened

00:38:58   historically at Apple.

00:38:59   Someone please write that book.

00:39:00   - One other thing I would caution us on

00:39:02   about trying to read into the timing of this and everything

00:39:06   is that the way Apple does things like this

00:39:10   in almost every case is usually pretty long

00:39:14   planned out stuff.

00:39:15   Probably the reason we've been seeing more

00:39:17   of John Turnus recently in the last couple years,

00:39:21   maybe they were planning this for a while

00:39:23   and so they wanted to raise the public profile

00:39:26   of John Turnus over time so that by the time

00:39:29   they finally made the move official,

00:39:31   we all knew who he was already.

00:39:32   - Well he was climbing the ladder.

00:39:34   Like the list of products Casey said

00:39:35   ended with the iPhone 12.

00:39:37   If you're in charge of the iPhone 12,

00:39:39   probably the previous year you weren't.

00:39:40   Like he was the iPad which is a lower profile product

00:39:43   but by the time you're in charge of the iPhone,

00:39:45   your next step up is okay now you're in charge

00:39:47   of everything, right?

00:39:48   So I feel like John Turnus has been climbing the ladder

00:39:51   and then Dan Ritchie was there at the top of the ladder

00:39:53   and then the shuffle takes place

00:39:55   and I think he started appearing in meetings

00:39:57   because he was climbing the ladder but you're right.

00:39:58   Like these transitions especially,

00:40:00   ones that are not sudden, you know,

00:40:02   like something like, what was it, Forstall and Ive,

00:40:07   butting heads and having an ultimatium,

00:40:09   like that's where you don't get a lot of time to react

00:40:11   but things like Phil Schiller becoming an Apple fellow

00:40:13   or this transition, probably you're right,

00:40:15   probably transitioned for a long time

00:40:16   but the transition takes place

00:40:18   because someone has been rising in the ranks

00:40:20   and I feel like half the reason we keep seeing them

00:40:22   is because they're rising in the ranks.

00:40:24   - Yeah, that's fair.

00:40:25   Anyway, this is probably a good thing

00:40:26   or at least a neutral thing.

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00:42:06   - All right, we do have some more Mac rumors

00:42:12   that came out after we recorded.

00:42:14   And Bloomberg had an article wherein they had

00:42:17   several interesting tidbits.

00:42:19   Apple Inc is working on a thinner and lighter version

00:42:22   of the MacBook Air.

00:42:23   This new computer is planned to be released

00:42:25   in the second half of this year or at the earliest

00:42:29   or in 2022.

00:42:30   It will include Apple's MagSafe charging technology

00:42:34   and the next generation version of the company's

00:42:36   in-house Mac processors.

00:42:38   Apple's discussed making the laptop smaller

00:42:40   by shrinking the border around the screen,

00:42:41   which will remain at 13 inches.

00:42:44   The company considered building a larger version

00:42:46   of the MacBook Air with a 15 inch screen,

00:42:47   but Apple isn't moving forward with this

00:42:49   for the next generation.

00:42:51   And this is where Marco and I sob.

00:42:53   I wish we were closer and the world hadn't ended

00:42:55   so we can give each other a very long hug.

00:42:58   Apple has also developed underlying Mac support

00:43:01   for both cellular connectivity and Face ID,

00:43:04   but neither feature appears to be coming soon.

00:43:06   They say it right there, developed underlying Mac support

00:43:10   for both cellular connectivity and Face ID,

00:43:13   but neither feature appears to be coming soon.

00:43:15   Why Marco, why did they do this to us?

00:43:16   Why?

00:43:17   And then it gets even worse for you.

00:43:18   I mean, I agree with this.

00:43:19   I just don't feel as strongly.

00:43:22   The upcoming MacBook Pro is an example

00:43:24   of Apple's renewed focus on Mac loyalists.

00:43:25   The company is planning to bring back an SD card slot

00:43:29   for the next MacBook Pros.

00:43:31   Marco, you want a justification to buy a new computer

00:43:33   in a few months?

00:43:34   Well, there you go.

00:43:35   - Well, they didn't say Air.

00:43:36   This is mixing a bunch of things.

00:43:37   - Oh yeah.

00:43:38   You're saying, hold on.

00:43:40   You're saying that if there was a MacBook Pro

00:43:42   with an SD card and a MacBook Air that didn't have one,

00:43:45   that you would be like, oh no, I want it in my MacBook Air.

00:43:48   Oh, heck no.

00:43:49   You would get that SD card in a heartbeat.

00:43:50   - That depends on my overall priorities

00:43:53   and the overall products and everything.

00:43:54   I mean, I haven't been using an SD card a lot recently

00:43:57   because I haven't been going anywhere.

00:43:59   (laughing)

00:44:00   So my laptop mostly travels between upstairs and downstairs.

00:44:05   So I actually have really enjoyed the small lightness of it.

00:44:09   I'm frequently carrying glasses of water with it.

00:44:12   So I'll frequently be carrying two glasses of water,

00:44:15   one in each hand.

00:44:16   - Oh, are you?

00:44:17   - And then have the MacBook Air tucked under my arm.

00:44:21   It's really nice having it be the size and weight it is.

00:44:22   So I'm probably gonna stick with it for a while.

00:44:24   But I kind of got annoyed by this.

00:44:29   The upcoming MacBook Pro is an example

00:44:32   of Apple's renewed focus on Mac loyalists.

00:44:36   The word loyalist there,

00:44:38   I don't think it's an entirely positive thing here.

00:44:40   It's typically things that end in ists are not.

00:44:43   Entirely positive things.

00:44:44   It kind of sounds like they're not doing this

00:44:49   to make the product better.

00:44:51   They're doing this to please the fanatics.

00:44:54   And I don't like that framing of anything.

00:44:57   But anyway, yeah, this is overall,

00:45:00   continuing the recent rumored dumps,

00:45:03   I think the one thing that tells you

00:45:06   everything you need to know about this, though,

00:45:08   is that it says it uses a next generation version

00:45:11   of the company's in-house Mac processors.

00:45:14   Meaning it uses the M2, meaning we're not gonna see it

00:45:17   this year in all likelihood.

00:45:18   This is gonna be like the 2022 MacBook Air in all likelihood.

00:45:23   So that's great, but it's not immediately on the horizon.

00:45:27   That being said, these all sound like interesting changes.

00:45:31   And what's nice about it, I think,

00:45:33   although I think didn't they say somewhere

00:45:34   that they're actually gonna keep the current MacBook Air

00:45:36   in the lineup in all likelihood

00:45:38   and have this be like a higher priced one?

00:45:40   But assuming not, I like that they're doing things

00:45:43   like bringing MagSafe to seemingly the entire lineup.

00:45:48   And not just the MacBook Pro.

00:45:50   I'm looking forward to a time when the laptops are,

00:45:53   like when they make something better about the laptops,

00:45:56   they all get it.

00:45:58   It's more about just how big do you want it to be,

00:46:01   like how big of a screen do you want,

00:46:03   and how many ports and how much power, basically.

00:46:06   But otherwise, if a lot more about them

00:46:08   can be the same or similar,

00:46:11   and if when something gets better,

00:46:13   it gets better for the entire lineup,

00:46:14   that's all good things.

00:46:16   So overall, this sounds good.

00:46:17   This is basically what I would hope to happen.

00:46:21   When the rumors of the imminent ARM transition

00:46:25   were really heating up over the last couple of years,

00:46:28   I had held the opinion, and I said multiple times

00:46:30   in the show, that I thought one of the launch models,

00:46:35   like one of the Apple Silicon or ARM-based Macs

00:46:39   that would be shown off at launch

00:46:42   would be a totally redesigned,

00:46:44   ultra slim, ultra small laptop.

00:46:47   Because I said they would probably want to show off

00:46:50   what they could make with their ARM chips.

00:46:53   And they didn't do that this time.

00:46:55   Like they instead changed nothing about the externals

00:46:59   and form factors and everything of the computers

00:47:02   they released as the first batch.

00:47:04   And so we haven't really seen them really flex

00:47:07   with like what kind of physical design

00:47:11   does this transition now enable them to do.

00:47:14   And all the designs that we got are also pretty old designs.

00:47:18   So while they are remarkable computers,

00:47:22   they look and feel kinda old.

00:47:25   So what I'm really happy to see here is that

00:47:29   this is actually coming relatively soon,

00:47:32   and will be coming presumably

00:47:34   to their smallest entry level laptop.

00:47:37   And that's gonna be great, I'm looking forward to it.

00:47:40   I was kind of disappointed that we didn't get it

00:47:44   at launch for Apple Silicon.

00:47:45   Although honestly, again, these computers are so good.

00:47:48   I'm so happy with them that like,

00:47:50   I guess we didn't need it after all.

00:47:52   But I am very optimistic to see like,

00:47:56   what does something designed for Apple Silicon

00:47:59   from the start, what can that look like?

00:48:01   And if these rumors are even partly or mostly true,

00:48:06   it sounds like it's gonna be pretty cool.

00:48:09   - The most interesting part of this rumor

00:48:12   aside from the sad parts, Casey,

00:48:13   which we'll get to in a minute,

00:48:15   is the fact that thinner and lighter

00:48:19   are back on the table for Apple product advancement.

00:48:24   And for the MacBook Air class of computer,

00:48:31   if you're gonna keep it as 13 inches,

00:48:33   but you're gonna make it thinner and lighter,

00:48:37   lighter is always good for a laptop.

00:48:40   But if you're making it thinner,

00:48:43   you're probably going to be sacrificing battery life

00:48:47   unless there's like a system on a chip shrink

00:48:50   between this generation and the next,

00:48:51   which is maybe plausible, right?

00:48:53   And I think that the, whatever problem

00:48:57   the current M1 MacBook Air has,

00:48:59   like its size, thickness, and weight are not on that list.

00:49:04   Like it's got a bad webcam.

00:49:09   You know, it's, maybe the speakers could be better,

00:49:13   but I don't know if I would want to sacrifice

00:49:17   any battery life on that amazing machine

00:49:21   for the sake of another millimeter or two.

00:49:23   A new design, maybe a redistribution of mass

00:49:26   to, you know, I don't know,

00:49:29   have thinner bezels on the screen or something,

00:49:31   or adjust the size of the track pad.

00:49:35   They're never gonna add more keys to the keyboard,

00:49:37   but I would.

00:49:38   There are things you can do with the design

00:49:40   to freshen it and modernize it,

00:49:41   make it come in colors as we've discussed before,

00:49:44   but I don't really want it to be thinner.

00:49:48   That said, I think there is a place

00:49:50   in Apple's laptop lineup that was previously filled

00:49:53   by the whatever we're calling that,

00:49:55   what was our, I've already forgotten all our names

00:49:57   of these things, the Adorable.

00:49:58   - The 12 inch, yeah, the MacBook One,

00:50:00   the MacBook Adorable, yeah, the 12 inch MacBook.

00:50:02   - Setting aside the one port thing,

00:50:05   making some product that is, look,

00:50:07   the whole point of this product is it's amazingly thin

00:50:09   and amazingly light.

00:50:11   They should absolutely make that product.

00:50:13   It just makes, I just don't want that to be the MacBook Air,

00:50:17   which goes back to what Marco said of the rumor

00:50:18   of like keeping around the fat air,

00:50:21   which has the amazing battery life that this curtain one has

00:50:23   and then having a thinner one.

00:50:24   Now, with these rumors, maybe what they're talking about

00:50:28   is the updated MacBook Adorable,

00:50:29   and they just keep calling it the Air

00:50:30   'cause it's not like they have the product name stamped

00:50:32   on them, that's all product marketing,

00:50:33   who knows what the thing will be called.

00:50:35   Remember, they call it the last one, MacBook, right?

00:50:37   So that wasn't very helpful.

00:50:38   - But that wasn't the MacBook or the MacBook,

00:50:40   it was the MacBook.

00:50:41   - I know, it's so bad.

00:50:43   But anyway, so my objection is not to the existence

00:50:47   of a thinner and lighter laptop.

00:50:49   I think there is a place for that computer

00:50:50   in Apple's lineup, and finally, that computer

00:50:52   will actually be pretty darn good.

00:50:53   It'll be for the people who like it.

00:50:54   The most important thing about my laptop

00:50:56   is how thin and how light it is.

00:50:58   And by the way, it should also be a decent computer.

00:51:00   Bam, we can do that now.

00:51:01   Thank you, ARM, right?

00:51:02   But I don't want this to displace the air

00:51:05   because I think the beautiful thing about the air,

00:51:07   all the air is that we've loved.

00:51:08   This current M1, the 2011 design, right?

00:51:12   Those computers, it's because they're like,

00:51:14   they're the right set of compromises.

00:51:16   They have good battery life, they're not too big,

00:51:18   they're not too small, they're powerful enough,

00:51:21   they're cheap enough, like that's what you want.

00:51:24   They're the Honda Accord of Apple laptops, right?

00:51:27   They do all the things well, and if you care

00:51:30   about something more, you want more power,

00:51:32   you want less weight, then you can spread out

00:51:34   to the more exotic models, but that's sort of

00:51:36   the meat and potatoes, right?

00:51:37   So I really hope they don't mess up that balance,

00:51:39   especially because I like the fact that the current

00:51:43   MacBook Air is like over-provisioned on battery life.

00:51:46   Like the battery is too good.

00:51:47   - Yeah.

00:51:48   - Like they accidentally made the battery

00:51:49   last too darn long.

00:51:50   Apple would, I don't think Apple would,

00:51:52   I think I said this in the first show,

00:51:53   I don't think they're ever targeting battery life that good,

00:51:56   but they didn't want to change the case,

00:51:58   and so this is how much battery fits in that case,

00:52:01   and it's an embarrassing amount of battery for the M1,

00:52:04   and so the battery just lasts all day,

00:52:05   and I think that's fantastic.

00:52:06   Like that's part of the thing that makes

00:52:08   these laptops amazing is they exceed expectations

00:52:11   in so many areas, not just performance,

00:52:13   but also battery life, and I don't want to go back

00:52:15   from exceeding expectations on battery life

00:52:17   to just merely meeting, right?

00:52:18   So I'm rooting for the fatter MacBook Air to soldier on.

00:52:23   And as for the 15-inch MacBook Air,

00:52:25   I'm intrigued by that idea partially because

00:52:29   if you make a 15-inch MacBook Air,

00:52:31   you're probably gonna end up putting bigger batteries.

00:52:33   You just have more square inches,

00:52:34   'cause the laptop got bigger.

00:52:36   What are you gonna fill that space with?

00:52:37   You're gonna fill it with more battery.

00:52:38   Granted, you have a bigger screen to power too,

00:52:40   but I'm hoping that net net, a 15-inch MacBook Air

00:52:43   would be like the MacBook Air Max or Plus or whatever.

00:52:46   Like it's the bigger laptop, and the only difference,

00:52:49   it has the same guts, but the only difference is

00:52:51   it's got a bigger screen but also bigger battery,

00:52:53   so in the same way the big iPhones

00:52:54   get the best battery life, the 15-inch MacBook Air

00:52:57   could be like the Battery Camel.

00:52:59   It's got the wimpier CPU,

00:53:00   like it's not the MacBook Pro CPU.

00:53:03   It's got a huge battery,

00:53:05   and in exchange for that huge battery,

00:53:07   it's bigger in your backpack 'cause it's a 15-inch.

00:53:10   I would love that machine,

00:53:11   and I'm kinda sad they're bailing on that.

00:53:13   For face ID and cellular,

00:53:16   I like the fact that this rumor says

00:53:18   that they're at least considering it,

00:53:20   so at least it's someone in Apple said,

00:53:21   "Hey, you know what?

00:53:22   "People are staring at their Macs all day.

00:53:23   "Why don't we read their face?"

00:53:24   Yes, please, do that, but I'm so sad that this won't,

00:53:26   this is apparently, according to this rumor,

00:53:28   not coming in the big redesign

00:53:30   because I feel like that's the,

00:53:31   that's what, you know, once we knew

00:53:33   that they're not gonna do the radical redesign

00:53:34   for the first round, it's like, okay, well, fine.

00:53:37   Second round, when you redesign the iMac,

00:53:38   when you make all new designs,

00:53:39   that's when you come out with the face ID and everything,

00:53:41   and you're like, nah, nah, we're gonna wait on that.

00:53:44   So the only thing I have to left hope for

00:53:46   is like better front-facing cameras, but honestly, Apple.

00:53:50   In anything that sits on our desk

00:53:52   that we stare at all the time,

00:53:54   that we constantly have to unlock, face ID, face ID.

00:53:58   Cellular is by far my lower priority,

00:54:00   but I understand people want it for laptops and everything.

00:54:02   - Oh, it's much higher for me

00:54:04   because touch ID on laptops works fantastically,

00:54:06   and so does watch unlock.

00:54:08   - You have to reach your hand out,

00:54:09   and you have to use your hands?

00:54:10   It's like a baby's toy.

00:54:11   - Not for watch unlock.

00:54:12   You don't even have to be looking at it.

00:54:13   - Yeah, I don't wear those things.

00:54:15   - Well, that's your own fault.

00:54:16   - You don't wear that thing either, Mark.

00:54:17   Are you wearing your fancy watch?

00:54:19   - I've been wearing an Apple watch full-time

00:54:20   for a few months.

00:54:22   - What?

00:54:23   Wait, wait, wait, wait.

00:54:25   - You know-- - No, no, stop, stop.

00:54:26   Marco is familiar with Tide charts now.

00:54:29   We need a Marco hardware Tide chart to see.

00:54:33   Is the Apple watch coming in or going out?

00:54:35   (laughing)

00:54:36   - Fair enough.

00:54:38   - You're not wrong.

00:54:38   Wait, what changed that you're not wearing

00:54:40   your fancy watches 'cause nobody else is looking at you?

00:54:42   - I'm not going anywhere.

00:54:44   - He doesn't need to be seen, the paparazzi.

00:54:46   - No, and I'm doing more fitness stuff recently,

00:54:49   and I had the COVID thing,

00:54:51   so I wanted to do oxygen monitoring for a long time

00:54:54   and everything, so a bunch of stuff is stacked up

00:54:55   such that I've been doing the Apple watch

00:54:58   full-time for a while now.

00:55:00   - Have you ever been in a double watch phase?

00:55:02   - Like wearing two at the same time?

00:55:04   No, no, no, no.

00:55:05   I was never at all tempted to do that.

00:55:07   - I mean, because one is your watch

00:55:09   and one is your fitness tracker,

00:55:10   so you could just put 'em on different arms.

00:55:11   - Nope, not for me.

00:55:13   - Well, you know what you could do?

00:55:14   You could just put the watch, the Apple watch on your ankle.

00:55:17   It'll be a little ankle thing.

00:55:18   - I think it's calibrated for ankles.

00:55:19   - Oh, come on, it'll work just fine.

00:55:21   - But what's great about WatchUnlock too

00:55:23   is that if you're using clamshell mode

00:55:26   or if you have a non-Apple screen

00:55:28   or an Apple screen that doesn't have a camera in it,

00:55:30   it still works, which is not true for Face ID or Touch ID,

00:55:35   which is awesome.

00:55:35   - Yeah, but you gotta wear a watch.

00:55:37   - Yeah, I know, that's the downside.

00:55:38   Going back to what you said a few minutes ago

00:55:40   about the different trade-offs and everything,

00:55:43   I had heard a phrase a while back,

00:55:45   especially during some of the bad old days

00:55:48   of Apple's laptop design,

00:55:51   they had apparently justified

00:55:53   making one of the batteries smaller

00:55:55   and making a laptop thinner and lighter

00:55:56   that really needed its battery life

00:55:57   and was giving it up unwillingly,

00:56:00   as I heard it described as shedding excess battery.

00:56:04   And that phrase made me so angry.

00:56:08   'Cause I was like, what do you mean?

00:56:10   Are the batteries good enough for everyone yet?

00:56:12   No, then they're not excess.

00:56:15   Then we shouldn't be shedding this excess.

00:56:18   It's not excess.

00:56:19   I loved, I had to, this past weekend,

00:56:21   I had to take a trip back home so Hops could go to the vet.

00:56:25   And so of course I brought my MacBook Air.

00:56:29   I grabbed it from the house as I was leaving

00:56:32   to take it with me for an overnight trip.

00:56:34   I didn't check to see whether I had plugged it in all day.

00:56:38   It wasn't plugged in when I took it off the table.

00:56:41   I didn't know what the battery life was

00:56:43   or what the battery level was.

00:56:44   I just figured it'd probably be fine.

00:56:47   And I used it at a supercharger for a while on the way.

00:56:49   And then I brought it home and I used it

00:56:52   for various work things that evening

00:56:54   and various work things the next morning.

00:56:57   And then I came back to the beach.

00:56:59   I never plugged it in the entire trip.

00:57:02   And I don't even know what the battery level was.

00:57:06   I never looked because I hardly ever need to

00:57:09   because it's amazing.

00:57:11   That's how I've always been able to work with my iPad.

00:57:14   'Cause iPads have really good battery life

00:57:16   and really good standby life and everything else.

00:57:18   I love the idea to not be like, is it topped off?

00:57:22   Is it topped off?

00:57:23   Is it topped off?

00:57:23   And have to be constantly babysitting that all the time.

00:57:27   Or stressing about it or worrying about it.

00:57:29   I love that I'm able to take my laptop on an overnight trip

00:57:34   and not plug it in the entire time and be fine.

00:57:39   That's amazing.

00:57:40   And I really hope that we get to keep this battery camel

00:57:45   aspect as John called it.

00:57:47   I love it so much.

00:57:48   It really radically changes the relationship

00:57:51   you're able to have with a laptop.

00:57:54   That's one of the reasons these M1s are so good.

00:57:56   And so I really do hope that the hardware engineering team

00:57:59   at Apple has not decided that this is a lot of excess

00:58:02   battery they need to shed.

00:58:04   When I operate my MacBook Air, when I'm carrying it,

00:58:07   when I'm handling it, when I'm using it,

00:58:10   at no point have I ever thought, this is too thick.

00:58:15   This is too heavy.

00:58:16   Never.

00:58:18   And while I respect the former market of the 12 inch,

00:58:23   probably wants something in that range, that's great.

00:58:28   I hope that, assuming Apple does get something

00:58:32   that's closer to that, presumably in part

00:58:34   by shedding their excess battery, I hope that they don't make

00:58:39   that trade off the only trade off.

00:58:43   One of my main criticisms of the bad years

00:58:45   of the laptop design is that they applied

00:58:48   the same priorities and the same trade offs

00:58:51   to the entire lineup.

00:58:53   So if you wanted something that had more ports,

00:58:57   a better keyboard, the things that you might think

00:59:00   would require a bigger, bulkier design,

00:59:04   but that's what you wanted, you didn't have any choice

00:59:06   in the entire lineup at any size, at any price.

00:59:09   There was no option for you.

00:59:11   'Cause they were applying the ultra thin, ultra light

00:59:14   priority set to the entire lineup.

00:59:17   So I hope that they have learned from that.

00:59:20   And I hope that, while I'm not saying

00:59:23   keep the laptops giant bricks or anything,

00:59:25   the reality is they're not giant bricks now.

00:59:27   They're already very well proportioned

00:59:30   for their size classes and compared to everything

00:59:33   the PC market is doing.

00:59:35   I would like to see them do things

00:59:36   like shrink the screen bezels, that'd be nice.

00:59:38   That's something where they're falling behind

00:59:39   in the design department a little bit from the PC world.

00:59:42   But I don't really need my MacBook Air

00:59:47   to be substantially thinner or lighter.

00:59:49   And if they do make a substantially thinner

00:59:52   and lighter computer for people who do want and need that,

00:59:55   I hope that they don't apply those same trade offs

00:59:57   to all of the other laptops.

01:00:00   Because people have different needs and different priorities

01:00:04   and something in the lineup, whatever your priorities are,

01:00:07   something in the lineup should come pretty close

01:00:09   to being your ideal computer rather than forcing them

01:00:13   to all be like ultra thin and then doing something terrible

01:00:16   like the bad keyboards.

01:00:18   Although, God, one of the most frustrating things

01:00:21   about the keyboard thing is that when they brought in

01:00:23   the Magic Keyboard to replace them all,

01:00:25   they didn't have to make the computers bigger.

01:00:28   Which is like, so wait, so you didn't even need them

01:00:32   to be that thing?

01:00:33   - Well, they never did the MacBook Adorable

01:00:35   with that keyboard.

01:00:36   - That's true, that's true, that's fair.

01:00:37   But anyway.

01:00:39   - But yeah, and it was just uniformity for the other ones

01:00:41   because they have the same keyboards everywhere.

01:00:42   - Right, right.

01:00:43   - To be clear on the thinnest thing,

01:00:46   the MacBook Air should continue to get thinner and lighter

01:00:49   but not at the cost of something else.

01:00:52   Like oh, we can make it thinner and lighter

01:00:53   if we shed excess battery.

01:00:55   It's like well, have you affected battery life

01:00:57   and is the battery life good enough?

01:00:58   Like if you look at the MacBook Air over time,

01:01:01   it has gotten thinner and lighter,

01:01:02   as it should at a steady rate.

01:01:04   We don't want that to stop.

01:01:05   We're not saying this is how big laptops should be forever.

01:01:08   20 years from now, we better have a thinner

01:01:09   and lighter MacBook Air if that product is still around.

01:01:13   But what we're saying is don't take current technology

01:01:16   and then make this particular trade-off,

01:01:18   like you were saying, Marco, make this same trade-off

01:01:20   on all of the lines.

01:01:21   And I think the Adorable was a good sign in that regard.

01:01:23   It's like clearly there was one computer

01:01:25   that was making an extreme trade-off.

01:01:27   It's just that they never really made different trade-offs

01:01:30   for the rest of the line.

01:01:30   So this will be a good test to see how much diversity

01:01:33   is there in Apple's lineup of computers.

01:01:36   I think the M1 MacBook Air is a great data point

01:01:40   because it exactly fills the 2011 MacBook Air's role.

01:01:43   $999, fantastic laptop that does everything really well

01:01:47   for almost everybody is the easy no-brainer recommendation.

01:01:50   That spot in the lineup is filled, good job.

01:01:52   Now we'll be seeing, okay,

01:01:53   what does the 16-inch Pro look like?

01:01:55   What is whatever this super thin light thing look like?

01:01:58   And what choices they make.

01:01:59   And related to that is this SD card,

01:02:00   which last week the rumor was more IO ports.

01:02:03   And I was, you know, my mind was boggled

01:02:05   that you could have that rumor,

01:02:06   but not know what the port is.

01:02:08   Now we have a more concrete rumor that said,

01:02:10   oh, it's an SD card slot.

01:02:11   What computers, if any, will this appear on?

01:02:15   It should probably appear on the bigger ones.

01:02:17   They have more space inside.

01:02:19   You won't be cutting into battery life

01:02:20   and all that other stuff.

01:02:21   SD card used to be on the MacBook Air, if I'm not mistaken.

01:02:25   - Yep.

01:02:26   - And it didn't destroy that computer.

01:02:27   So that's plausible too.

01:02:29   Wherever they wanna put that, that's fine.

01:02:30   You don't need to put it everywhere,

01:02:32   but it shouldn't be nowhere.

01:02:33   Put it on the computer

01:02:33   and the people who care about that will get it.

01:02:35   And you know, like the main use that I have of this thing

01:02:38   is going on vacation.

01:02:39   You can't bring your desktop Mac with you.

01:02:40   You have to bring a laptop.

01:02:42   And if you wanna pull photos off

01:02:45   and edit them on your powerful laptop,

01:02:47   it's great to be able to just take the card out

01:02:48   instead of having to deal with a cable

01:02:50   or trying to do a wireless and all that good stuff.

01:02:51   So in some respects,

01:02:54   it's maybe like almost too little too late

01:02:56   given the vastly improving connectivity options

01:02:58   on modern cameras, but late is better than never.

01:03:02   So I endorse the SD card slot.

01:03:04   - Oh, I mean the SD card, it's an obvious thing

01:03:06   because again, as I've been arguing for a long time,

01:03:09   typically if you need SD cards in your workflow,

01:03:12   nothing about the advancement of ports

01:03:15   is likely to remove that need.

01:03:18   Certainly now, we've had significant market pressure.

01:03:22   Since 2016 when the touch-powered laptops came out,

01:03:25   we've had significant market pressure

01:03:27   from the computer side for device makers

01:03:29   and pros with their workflows and tools and everything

01:03:32   to move away from SD cards.

01:03:34   If it was reasonably possible to move away from them

01:03:37   and all we needed was a motivational push from Apple,

01:03:41   we've had that.

01:03:43   And we still need SD cards for a lot of things.

01:03:46   And this says, so users can insert memory cards

01:03:50   from digital cameras, which kind of makes it seem

01:03:52   like a point and shoot, kind of quaint, outdated thing

01:03:55   that nobody does anymore until you realize

01:03:58   that's a Bloomberg style guide simplification probably,

01:04:02   that's actually really useful for video cameras,

01:04:07   which people use a lot.

01:04:10   And it's also useful for audio recorders,

01:04:13   which people like us use a lot.

01:04:15   And it's also useful if you have any kind of

01:04:18   embedded hardware that uses SD cards as its medium

01:04:21   or for configuration, things like Raspberry Pis.

01:04:24   There's so much stuff out there

01:04:27   that uses either SD or micro SD.

01:04:30   And I'm aware that there are newer card standards

01:04:33   in certain high-end cameras and stuff,

01:04:35   but the fact is if you're gonna put one media slot

01:04:38   for some kind of flash media,

01:04:40   if you're gonna pick one of them to maximize the utility

01:04:44   for the broadest segment of the population, it's SD.

01:04:47   And you don't need to take my word for it.

01:04:49   You can look at what has happened in the market.

01:04:52   If you look at the dongles that every single person

01:04:55   who has bought an Apple laptop since 2016

01:04:58   has had to or chosen to buy,

01:05:01   you don't see a huge variety

01:05:04   of different port types on these.

01:05:06   And you don't see them changing much over time.

01:05:09   What you see is the exact same three ports

01:05:13   on every single dongle out there,

01:05:16   USB-A, HDMI, and an SD card slot.

01:05:21   Every single dongle out there has those three things

01:05:25   that people are actually buying

01:05:27   because the need for those ports is not going away

01:05:32   anytime soon for almost anybody who buys these laptops.

01:05:35   So I think the most likely answer

01:05:38   and the most useful answer,

01:05:40   if they're gonna add more ports to the laptops,

01:05:42   is those three things,

01:05:44   USB-A, HDMI, and SD card.

01:05:48   And I know the USB-A is a stretch

01:05:51   'cause they wanna move forward and everything.

01:05:52   And that's the one that over time is slowly,

01:05:56   very painfully slowly, the need for that is decreasing.

01:06:00   - Yeah, I feel like we're turning the corner on USB-A

01:06:02   or close to turning the corner on USB-A.

01:06:04   - Right, and I think it seems like it kinda feels

01:06:06   too old for them, so I think,

01:06:09   and it is a larger port, it would be hard to fit that.

01:06:12   So I don't see that coming in.

01:06:13   - I mean, and that's why also on the SD card thing,

01:06:16   like CF is the main competitor

01:06:17   and CF continues to advance,

01:06:18   but it's just too darn big to fit in a laptop.

01:06:20   And the fact is, it doesn't have as broad

01:06:22   of compatibility as SD does.

01:06:23   - Yeah, that's like super high-end pro.

01:06:25   It would be great for the super high-end pro models,

01:06:26   but kind of like HDMI and Ethernet,

01:06:28   it has been sized out of the edge of your laptop.

01:06:31   - Yeah, and yeah, that's the problem with HDMI.

01:06:34   I'm like, I don't think they could fit HDMI,

01:06:37   and I hope they wouldn't do something

01:06:38   like one of the micro HDMI standards.

01:06:40   - I was just gonna make that joke.

01:06:41   He took it from--

01:06:42   - That wouldn't solve the problem in a great way.

01:06:45   It would possibly be better,

01:06:47   but it wouldn't solve the problem in an amazing way.

01:06:49   - No, but nobody likes micro HDMI.

01:06:51   - Yeah, so I'm assuming what we're gonna see

01:06:54   for the new ports is just MagSafe,

01:06:58   and of course keeping USB-C and the addition of SD,

01:07:03   and that might be it.

01:07:04   And that's fine.

01:07:05   I mean, if you think about, you know,

01:07:06   by adding MagSafe back as a power option,

01:07:09   you effectively add one more port to all of the computers,

01:07:13   assuming they don't lose any of their USB-C ports

01:07:15   in the process, because so often,

01:07:18   we're using one of our USB-C ports just for power.

01:07:21   And so it's kind of wasted,

01:07:22   which is another reason why this is a weird

01:07:23   engineering decision to go in this direction.

01:07:26   And so to basically be able to offload the power

01:07:29   to its own dedicated port,

01:07:31   you are effectively adding one USB-C port

01:07:34   to every computer they make, which is fantastic.

01:07:36   So I do hope to see that happen,

01:07:41   and the SD card slot and everything.

01:07:44   I do think ideally they would have a single USB-A port

01:07:48   for those times when you don't have your USB dongle

01:07:51   with you or whatever, and a single HDMI port,

01:07:53   because so many people need it.

01:07:55   But I don't see those happening.

01:07:56   That being said, I do wanna push back

01:07:58   on one other little quick thing

01:08:00   before I let go of the floor here.

01:08:02   You know, earlier when talking about the thinness trade-offs

01:08:06   and things like that, so often when we talk about things

01:08:11   like this would be a lot more useful a lot of the time

01:08:15   if it just had one USB-A port and an HDMI port.

01:08:18   So often the response to that is,

01:08:20   well they can't, it wouldn't fit, it's too thick.

01:08:24   And the thickness of your laptop lineup

01:08:28   is a self-imposed, self-created problem.

01:08:30   And so if a product line could benefit from something

01:08:35   that would require the case of the laptop

01:08:37   to be a little bit thicker,

01:08:39   it shouldn't be blanketly ruled out as,

01:08:42   oh we can't do this because it's too thin, period.

01:08:46   Like, well, you can change the thickness.

01:08:48   Not every computer, again, not every computer

01:08:51   has to have the same trade-offs.

01:08:52   Not every laptop Apple makes has to prioritize

01:08:56   the thickness over everything else.

01:08:58   So for instance, at some point,

01:08:59   as we get into these smaller and smaller case designs,

01:09:03   we will start hitting limits of things like

01:09:06   how many USB-C ports can you fit into the thickness

01:09:09   of something like a MacBook Air,

01:09:11   or especially a next generation MacBook Air.

01:09:12   Like, can you still have two side by side?

01:09:15   Or will the case tapering become so severe

01:09:18   or so thin at the starting point

01:09:20   that you can only have one on each side

01:09:22   like the old 12 inch had, like with just the headphone

01:09:25   on one side, USB-C on the other.

01:09:27   If that's the case, you can't fit more ports

01:09:30   because it's too thin is not a great defense

01:09:35   for not having the number of ports

01:09:36   that you would need to make it a useful product.

01:09:39   And so I wanna keep that framework in mind.

01:09:41   Like, as we judge future products,

01:09:42   like if it comes out with, you know,

01:09:44   there's a new MacBook Air, and instead of having

01:09:47   the two USB-Cs that the current one has,

01:09:49   it goes down to one USB-C on one side

01:09:52   and one headphone on the other, like the little 12 inch.

01:09:54   Or if they get rid of the headphone jack

01:09:56   and just have one USB-C on each side,

01:09:59   I would argue that was a bad trade-off

01:10:02   because the computer didn't need to be made so thin

01:10:06   that it has to lose the useful ports.

01:10:09   Like that is a self-imposed restriction

01:10:12   that, you know, there's a trade-off to everything

01:10:15   and that trade-off should not be made

01:10:18   in a way that reduces utility on other computers.

01:10:21   - If you remember the original MacBook Air,

01:10:23   obviously the design-- - I sure do.

01:10:25   I had it. - As the first unibody

01:10:27   and it has to be beautiful and elegant and curved

01:10:30   and it's like, oh, but with this beautiful design,

01:10:32   we can't put any ports on it.

01:10:33   And they solved that by making a door, right?

01:10:35   'Cause they didn't wanna give up the,

01:10:37   like the curves, essentially, on the side.

01:10:39   People don't remember the original MacBook Air.

01:10:40   The sides were not flat.

01:10:42   They were, it was kind of like curved

01:10:43   like an airplane wing in all places, right?

01:10:46   And there was a little door and you folded it on a door

01:10:48   and there was a flat surface with the USB-A port

01:10:50   and whatever the other port thing,

01:10:52   like the headphone was on there as well.

01:10:53   - Headphone and monitor out.

01:10:55   It started out being a really weird, like, custom,

01:10:58   like mini HDMI kind of thing or mini DVI thing

01:11:02   and then later on it moved to Thunderbolt, I think.

01:11:04   - Yeah, and so that was an example where, okay, well,

01:11:07   so design dictated that this thing had to be shaped

01:11:09   like an airplane wing, but they didn't say,

01:11:11   well, that means we can't have any ports, right?

01:11:13   'Cause they didn't have that much courage back then.

01:11:15   So instead they put a door on it.

01:11:16   And the door wasn't elegant, but if you,

01:11:19   if Apple ever finds itself in that situation again

01:11:22   where they really want to include a port

01:11:25   that has just been sized out of laptops

01:11:27   but it's still super useful, there are things you can do.

01:11:29   You can find the fatter edge.

01:11:31   You can put a port on the back or something.

01:11:32   You can have a little bit of a door

01:11:34   or something that folds down

01:11:35   or you can have just a little area

01:11:36   that is a flat sort of port,

01:11:40   like a dock on the edge of your computer.

01:11:43   Like, you know what I mean, like a dock on the water

01:11:45   as in the side of your computer is beautiful

01:11:47   and thin and curved and there's this little bulge area

01:11:49   to just give you enough flat space for a USB-C port.

01:11:52   Something like that that would seem inelegant

01:11:54   but is solving the customer's problem

01:11:56   because having dongles is, as we've all learned,

01:11:59   mostly worse.

01:12:00   And getting to this final item here,

01:12:01   which is even more up in the air,

01:12:04   random rumor, patent-related thing.

01:12:06   When I think about the area

01:12:07   where Apple's laptops can improve,

01:12:10   aside from like having a thinner, lighter model,

01:12:12   however, the bigger model with more ports and more stuff,

01:12:15   the main thing I think about as time progresses

01:12:17   is not so much at this point getting thinner and lighter,

01:12:20   although I still think that should happen,

01:12:21   but the main area where Apple's laptops are lacking

01:12:25   and all laptops are lacking is durability.

01:12:28   Right now, they're very vulnerable,

01:12:30   as Casey will tell us, to liquid

01:12:32   in a way that our phones are not.

01:12:34   I don't like that.

01:12:35   If you drop a laptop, they don't like that.

01:12:38   They're not as durable as phones,

01:12:40   obviously, but phones are lighter, so it's easier for them,

01:12:42   but I don't even think they're as durable as iPads.

01:12:45   I know 'cause I've seen my kids drop their iPads

01:12:47   down the stairs so many times

01:12:48   and I'm amazed they haven't broken yet.

01:12:50   If they had dropped one of our laptops

01:12:51   down the stairs like that, it would not survive.

01:12:54   So if Apple wants to concentrate technology-wise

01:12:59   on physical advancements of the design of their laptops,

01:13:04   I would encourage them to water seal those suckers

01:13:07   and make them more durable to drops, right?

01:13:11   As they make them thinner and lighter

01:13:12   and as they go into book bags,

01:13:14   I don't want them to be subject

01:13:15   to compression cracking of the screen.

01:13:17   I don't want them to be, if you drop them

01:13:19   and they land on a corner from a foot and a half

01:13:21   off the ground that they shatter the entire screen.

01:13:24   Like aluminum is great and it's very durable

01:13:26   and there's no moving parts

01:13:27   and there's no spinning hard drive

01:13:28   and we're all set except that keyboard is a giant place

01:13:31   for water to destroy your computer

01:13:32   and the screens are still very breakable.

01:13:34   I don't know what they can do about this.

01:13:36   I don't know what the solution is.

01:13:37   This is a very difficult problem.

01:13:38   It's not like Apple is behind in this area in general,

01:13:41   but even just something as simple as one model laptop

01:13:43   that's essentially made to go into a kid's backpack

01:13:46   and go to school.

01:13:47   Having just discussed on the last show,

01:13:49   searching for cases to put these beautiful,

01:13:53   expensive aluminum laptops inside

01:13:55   so my kids can take them to and from school as kids do

01:13:58   and not worry that they're gonna break them,

01:14:00   I would love a laptop that is ruggedized for that purpose.

01:14:03   Arguably, the crappy plastic Chromebooks

01:14:06   that every kid in my kid's school get are more durable

01:14:11   than the much nicer looking, much better Apple laptops.

01:14:14   They're made of crappy plastic and they're ugly,

01:14:16   but I feel like that crappy plastic is more resistant

01:14:20   to denting and maybe absorbs more energy

01:14:23   rather than transferring it through to the screen.

01:14:24   That said, the first week my son had a Chromebook

01:14:26   when he was in middle school, he broke it in his backpack.

01:14:28   So, you know, laptops are more fragile,

01:14:31   but that is a potential area of advancement.

01:14:34   This final little bit of rumor here is a patent

01:14:36   that Apple came out with, I don't know,

01:14:39   I think it's an older patent.

01:14:40   We always find out these things after the fact,

01:14:42   about using titanium parts in,

01:14:44   and showed a little picture of a laptop, right?

01:14:46   Obviously, Apple already made a titanium laptop,

01:14:48   but this was about having a sandblasted surface texture

01:14:51   that's glossy and it's all this crazy, you know,

01:14:55   patent jargon in the description.

01:14:57   But the bottom line is, it's a patent about Apple

01:15:00   using different materials to make their laptops.

01:15:02   And they already did titanium once,

01:15:04   but titanium is, you know,

01:15:05   lighter and stronger than aluminum, also more expensive.

01:15:08   It has different materials trade-offs.

01:15:11   I would love to see an advancement in Apple laptops

01:15:14   that really uses some different materials.

01:15:16   Titanium, carbon fiber, God forbid, plastic.

01:15:19   We love the unibodies, they're great, they're wonderful,

01:15:22   but in the spirit of diversifying their product line,

01:15:24   I would love one, one model of the laptop lineup

01:15:28   that's the rugged one.

01:15:30   For kids, for education, for anybody who just wants

01:15:33   to chuck it into their backpack without treating it gingerly,

01:15:35   the same way people do with their phones.

01:15:37   Yeah, and they should--

01:15:39   - That was years ago, y'all, years ago.

01:15:41   - And they should all be waterproof, to be clear.

01:15:43   I think they should all be waterproof.

01:15:45   I know it's a hard problem 'cause they've got the keyboard

01:15:47   and everything and you don't wanna screw up

01:15:48   the keyboard feel and stuff like that,

01:15:50   but they should all be waterproof.

01:15:51   And especially now with the Arm Max

01:15:54   and how tiny the motherboard is

01:15:56   because of the system on a chip,

01:15:57   like if they could just cordon off

01:16:00   and seal off the motherboard elsewhere,

01:16:02   and so then you could like spill water into it

01:16:04   and then just like let the water drain out

01:16:06   through the keyboard and the computer would be fine.

01:16:07   I don't, again, I don't know what the solution is,

01:16:09   but if you're thinking what areas,

01:16:11   what physical design areas can Apple advance in laptops,

01:16:15   merely keeping the exact set of current trade-offs

01:16:18   that we have now in terms of it's a single piece of aluminum

01:16:20   that's carved out, has a screen in it

01:16:22   and has a system on a chip and an SSD,

01:16:24   and if you put water on it, it dies,

01:16:25   and if you drop it, it dies, it's time to revisit that.

01:16:27   So I really hope, if not this titanium rumor

01:16:30   or the various carbon fiber rumors or whatever,

01:16:33   I really hope five years from now,

01:16:34   Apple's making some inroads on the physical design

01:16:38   of their laptops that have something to do with factors

01:16:43   other than how thin it is.

01:16:45   - I keep coming back to you,

01:16:47   what I was talking about earlier during follow-up,

01:16:49   which is if the processors are the same

01:16:51   throughout the lineup, and let's just go bananas

01:16:54   and let's say even the amount of RAM may be the same.

01:16:58   So the things that vary may be SSDs,

01:17:01   and maybe that's it, like GPUs may be the same.

01:17:03   If the only thing you're really choosing

01:17:05   is maybe how big an SSD or how big an SSD and RAM,

01:17:12   why wouldn't you also get the option to upgrade to cellular

01:17:15   for 130 bucks or probably 200 bucks,

01:17:17   because it's always more expensive than it needs to be?

01:17:19   Like why wouldn't you get the option to upgrade,

01:17:22   or maybe not even upgrade as like a line item,

01:17:25   but choose a different line that is the super-duper pro,

01:17:29   that not pro maxes in size, but pro maxes in more pro,

01:17:33   where you get the SD card slot and things like that,

01:17:35   and you get an HDMI port,

01:17:37   and maybe you have the education version,

01:17:39   which is not a tough book, but something like it.

01:17:44   And I feel like I'm probably underselling in my own mind

01:17:49   how many different SKUs Apple has,

01:17:51   and I know that there's all these different laptops

01:17:53   in all different sizes with all different colors,

01:17:55   with all different SSDs, with the different CPUs,

01:17:57   with different RAM, with different GPUs in some cases.

01:18:01   Like I understand that if I really properly think about it,

01:18:04   there's a lot more variation in the lineup today

01:18:06   than I think there is.

01:18:08   But I, for one, would really strongly consider,

01:18:12   or be willing to trade the ability

01:18:15   to choose how much RAM I have,

01:18:17   which is something, just an episode or two ago,

01:18:18   I said is something I feel like I want more than 16 gigs,

01:18:22   but I've yet to hear anyone complain about 16 gigs,

01:18:24   including New Marco, so I would almost be willing

01:18:28   to make the trade-off that I don't get

01:18:31   to choose the processor, I don't get to choose how much RAM,

01:18:34   I get to choose SSD and like one or two other things.

01:18:37   And that might be worth it to me,

01:18:39   because I don't care about what GPU I get.

01:18:41   If the RAM really doesn't matter,

01:18:43   I don't care how much RAM it has.

01:18:44   I do care about how much storage.

01:18:45   I do care about cellular,

01:18:47   and I might care about HDMI and SD cards.

01:18:49   So I don't see Apple going this way.

01:18:52   I don't think this is the way,

01:18:54   this isn't the style of computer manufacturer they wanna be.

01:18:58   They don't wanna be the Gateway 2000s of the late 90s,

01:19:01   but it would be really sweet if they did.

01:19:04   It would be super cool.

01:19:05   - Yeah, I mean, to be fair, I would love more RAM.

01:19:08   I just don't need more RAM,

01:19:12   and I'm choosing these computers right now

01:19:14   because they are so good overall,

01:19:16   like as overall like rounded things.

01:19:19   But if more RAM was an option, I would definitely take it.

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01:20:37   - All right, we haven't done Ask ATP in a long time,

01:20:43   so let's see how long we can go

01:20:45   and how many of these we can get through.

01:20:48   Starting with Brendan Beckerer,

01:20:50   how much do you think Mac OS or iOS costs?

01:20:52   People pricing out Apple's new hardware

01:20:53   seem to want to take all the components

01:20:56   and add up their costs and say the rest is Apple's margins.

01:20:59   They seem to ignore that the software component

01:21:01   has a cost of the device.

01:21:03   And I'm curious what you think that is.

01:21:04   This is a great question and something

01:21:06   that I think I forget about as well.

01:21:08   In terms of a number, oh golly, I can't even imagine.

01:21:11   I'm sure some way somehow we could compute it

01:21:13   and I'm sure we could guesstimate

01:21:15   like how many source lines of code there are

01:21:17   and about how much each line of code costs

01:21:19   and things of that nature,

01:21:20   but that's something that I never found

01:21:23   particularly interesting.

01:21:25   I don't even know how to put a finger in the wind to guess.

01:21:29   I don't know, John, what do you think?

01:21:31   - The most salient point is not actually the cost.

01:21:33   It's the difference in these kinds of costs.

01:21:35   So Mac OS and iOS are fixed costs.

01:21:37   You need to make that once, right?

01:21:41   But the other costs you're talking about

01:21:43   when like selling Mac hardware,

01:21:44   those are variable costs, right?

01:21:45   And so every time you make a new Mac,

01:21:47   you have to pay for making that new Mac.

01:21:50   You have to pay for the materials,

01:21:50   the labor, so on and so forth.

01:21:52   And the more Macs you sell,

01:21:53   for every single new one you sell,

01:21:55   you have to pay whatever the cost to make that Mac.

01:21:58   Not true of the OS.

01:21:59   That's fixed.

01:22:00   You have to pay it once.

01:22:01   No matter how many Macs you make,

01:22:02   you don't have to keep paying for that OS

01:22:03   'cause you're not licensing it for Microsoft, right?

01:22:05   So the reason most people don't talk about this

01:22:07   is because compared to the number of things

01:22:10   that Apple sells,

01:22:11   the fixed cost to develop the software that runs on them

01:22:14   is dwarfed by the variable costs

01:22:16   of the literally millions of individual instances

01:22:19   of that product that get produced.

01:22:20   That's why people care more about

01:22:22   how much does it cost to make a physical iPhone object

01:22:26   than how much does iOS cost.

01:22:27   So if you had to do the math and you said,

01:22:28   okay, well, iOS costs Apple $150 million this year, right?

01:22:32   And every year it costs that much or whatever it is.

01:22:35   Divide that by how many iPhones are sold

01:22:38   and suddenly you're like,

01:22:38   oh, it's like two cents of every iPhone.

01:22:40   (laughing)

01:22:41   And who knows, like obviously they already have Mac OS and iOS

01:22:45   so the cost on a year to year basis

01:22:46   that I'm writing it over from scratch.

01:22:48   So whatever they paid to make it in the first place,

01:22:52   whether it be Mac OS X or the classic Mac OS,

01:22:54   the original iOS,

01:22:55   that gets spread over years and years and years.

01:22:56   So I think the reason it's not discussed

01:22:58   is because the fixed costs are so diluted

01:23:01   by the volume of things Apple sells

01:23:03   that the variable costs are really dominated.

01:23:06   - Rohit Sharma asks, if you use Siri to send a message,

01:23:09   I recently learned that Apple now includes a bit of text

01:23:11   that informs the recipient that you use Siri.

01:23:13   That text is also a link to an ad

01:23:15   within iMessage to use Siri.

01:23:17   Is it just me or does this feel like an email signature

01:23:19   that you can't turn off

01:23:20   and is not a great move for privacy conscious Apple?

01:23:23   I don't know how to put this gently,

01:23:24   but I could not disagree more.

01:23:26   Like this is just letting somebody know

01:23:28   that if there are transcription errors,

01:23:30   it's probably not that person's fault.

01:23:33   It's probably the fault of the robot

01:23:35   that's doing the transcription.

01:23:36   And if anything,

01:23:37   I almost feel like this is a very un-Apple thing

01:23:39   to kind of implicitly say,

01:23:41   hey, we screwed up, it's our fault.

01:23:42   Yeah, exactly.

01:23:43   So I can see, I guess,

01:23:48   how Rohit got to this perspective,

01:23:50   but I very strongly disagree with it.

01:23:54   - I very strongly disagree with you.

01:23:56   - Okay, tell me why.

01:23:58   - Yeah, so this is this thing that I started,

01:24:00   when the first time I saw one

01:24:02   where under somebody's message, in iMessage,

01:24:04   it said sent with Siri, learn more, dot, dot, dot.

01:24:07   I thought, oh no, I wish they didn't do that.

01:24:12   To be clear, part of it is a privacy issue,

01:24:16   I think in the sense that it is unintended

01:24:20   and undisclosed to the sender.

01:24:23   Information disclosure about this message

01:24:26   and the person who sent it and how they sent it.

01:24:28   I don't want people to know how I typed it.

01:24:30   What if it said sent without pants?

01:24:32   Like what if I was sent from the bathroom?

01:24:35   Like that could be a fun one.

01:24:37   You don't want to send that information

01:24:39   as metadata to your messages unless you're aware of it

01:24:41   and you choose to do that.

01:24:43   And so to have Apple be adding metadata to the recipient,

01:24:47   unbeknownst to the sender,

01:24:49   you don't know that it's gonna say sent with Siri

01:24:51   and be an ad for Siri on the bottom

01:24:55   of the message that you sent.

01:24:56   What if you don't want the person to know

01:24:58   that it was sent with Siri?

01:24:59   What if the fact that it was sent with Siri

01:25:02   implicitly discloses something to the recipient

01:25:05   that you didn't want them to know?

01:25:06   Like that maybe you're on the go right now.

01:25:08   It's a recipe for potential problems

01:25:11   and the goal it achieves.

01:25:13   See, I didn't think of it as to excuse transcription errors.

01:25:18   I thought of it especially because of the learn more link

01:25:21   that is literally like an ad for using Siri basically.

01:25:25   I looked at that more like Apple is adding promo stuff

01:25:30   to my messages for their benefit.

01:25:32   This is like to get people more using Siri.

01:25:35   - Oh please, come on.

01:25:37   - There's been an issue in the OS recently

01:25:41   that Apple has been adding ever more ads

01:25:46   for upsells into their services

01:25:48   into various parts of the OS recently.

01:25:50   - That I agree with, yes.

01:25:52   - And people who don't subscribe to all the stuff

01:25:54   Apple sells are really getting quite annoyed about it.

01:25:57   They've been egregious in the music app

01:26:00   for a few years now.

01:26:01   The more recent, even more egregious ones

01:26:04   are like the entire banner in settings that will appear.

01:26:08   Hey, try Apple Arcade or whatever.

01:26:10   At the top of your settings screen

01:26:13   as what looks like a setting

01:26:15   but then it's actually just a promo for some Apple service

01:26:18   that you haven't signed up for yet.

01:26:20   They're walking over a lot of lines

01:26:23   that I don't think they should be walking over

01:26:25   for user experience or even in some ways

01:26:28   possibly ethical reasons all to promote more

01:26:32   of their own services and stuff

01:26:34   to their existing user base and I find that really gross.

01:26:37   It's probably just a relatively unavoidable side effect

01:26:42   of them becoming more of a services company

01:26:44   for their revenue growth.

01:26:45   This kind of stuff will definitely happen.

01:26:47   Any time a company benefits significantly

01:26:50   from upselling you with stuff you already bought from them,

01:26:53   they're going to slowly ruin the user experience

01:26:56   to sell more of their crap to you

01:26:58   because that is directly tied

01:26:59   to their most important area of revenue growth.

01:27:02   So this has been a long time coming

01:27:04   but Apple's kind of gross feeling

01:27:06   and kind of overstepping promos

01:27:08   are infecting the UI of their products

01:27:11   to a degree that I don't think they should be comfortable

01:27:14   with 'cause they're supposed to be a company with taste

01:27:15   and I think this oversteps that line.

01:27:17   And while the Siri promo that we're talking about

01:27:20   in this question, Siri itself is not an add-on service

01:27:24   for Apple that they could make more money with

01:27:26   directly if people used it.

01:27:27   So it doesn't quite have that same feel

01:27:30   as like sent with Apple Music Premium or whatever.

01:27:33   It's not quite that bad but it's in the ballpark

01:27:37   of that kind of thing where this seems like a promo

01:27:40   that Apple has inserted without your knowledge or permission

01:27:43   and as far as I can tell, no way to turn it off,

01:27:46   like for the sender to turn it off

01:27:48   to not disclose that you sent this message with Siri.

01:27:50   So it's like information leakage

01:27:54   of the sender's implementation details

01:27:57   of how they sent this message,

01:27:58   how they composed this message

01:28:00   for no really clear benefit to the sender

01:28:05   and seemingly a benefit only to Apple.

01:28:07   And that's gross and I think it's a mistake

01:28:10   and I hope that they revert this.

01:28:12   - I, oh God, I could not possibly disagree with you more.

01:28:15   It's not a frickin' ad.

01:28:16   It's not you can't buy anything in there.

01:28:18   It's not an ad.

01:28:19   - Then why is the learn more a link there?

01:28:21   What's that for?

01:28:22   If they take the learn more sent with Siri,

01:28:24   I still would disagree with the information disclosure,

01:28:27   the like unintended information disclosure.

01:28:30   'Cause again, what if it's sent from the bathroom?

01:28:32   Again, like I know that's a common example.

01:28:34   - But that's not what it says.

01:28:35   That's not what it says.

01:28:36   - Can you imagine a situation in which

01:28:38   you wouldn't want someone to know

01:28:39   that you sent a message with Siri?

01:28:41   - Well you know what, Marco?

01:28:42   You could use a kitchen knife to murder someone.

01:28:44   You could imagine that that's possible.

01:28:45   So we shouldn't have kitchen knives.

01:28:47   - All right, all right.

01:28:48   I have to come in and settle this for you too.

01:28:50   So it's all the things that you all said, right?

01:28:53   So it's not just one thing, right?

01:28:55   So Marco's right that the services infecting the UI

01:29:00   is definitely a thing that's happening.

01:29:01   - Oh yes, and I agree with that.

01:29:03   - But even in those cases,

01:29:04   like there are multiple aspects to it.

01:29:07   And it depends like whether or not

01:29:09   how you value those aspects, they do definitely exist.

01:29:12   One aspect is absolutely for sure

01:29:14   to excuse transcription errors, right?

01:29:16   It's kind of similar in a strange way

01:29:18   to the original sent from my iPhone signature

01:29:20   that was the default on like Apple Mail and stuff

01:29:23   on the original iPhone.

01:29:24   That was partly there to yes, advertise the iPhone

01:29:27   and show that you were cool.

01:29:28   But it very quickly came to serve a function

01:29:31   in our society of excusing the idea

01:29:33   that I typed this with my thumbs on a little phone screen.

01:29:36   So maybe excuse some typos, right?

01:29:39   So regardless of the intention sent with Siri,

01:29:43   and I've seen this in real life for myself,

01:29:45   absolutely functions as a way for you to parse

01:29:47   whatever gibberish that just got sent in that message

01:29:50   to say, what is this?

01:29:51   Oh, they sent it with Siri, that explains it.

01:29:53   They're not having a stroke.

01:29:54   It was just Siri transcription, right?

01:29:56   The learn more link serves multiple functions,

01:29:59   most of which are advertising promotion.

01:30:02   And I would say that there is something

01:30:03   they want you to buy if you get used to Siri,

01:30:05   which is like HomePods and stuff, right?

01:30:06   'Cause it is an evaluated product.

01:30:09   But it also serves the function of letting people know

01:30:12   that this is a thing that their phone can do.

01:30:13   - Bingo. - And it's difficult

01:30:14   to walk that line, but part of designing the OS

01:30:18   is to make it so that all the features

01:30:20   you worked hard to put into the phone,

01:30:22   somehow the person who's paid all that money for it

01:30:24   realizes that they can use the phone to do this thing.

01:30:28   Like Apple does it themselves and like,

01:30:29   hey, did you know you can scan documents with the Notes app?

01:30:31   Nobody freaking knows that

01:30:32   until Apple starts telling everybody.

01:30:34   And yeah, they're advertising

01:30:36   that it's a feature of their phone,

01:30:37   but also people who have phones and don't realize

01:30:39   like that there's a magnifier on it

01:30:41   are missing out on a feature that they paid for.

01:30:43   And so you want to tell them the things

01:30:46   that their phone can do,

01:30:47   but you don't wanna nag them 'cause that's terrible.

01:30:49   So you know, and again, it feels worse if it's like,

01:30:52   hey, pay for this premium service.

01:30:53   But in general, trying to figure out

01:30:55   how to make people aware that their phone can do thing,

01:30:57   one way to do it is to say,

01:30:58   hey, your friend talked into their phone

01:31:00   to send you this message.

01:31:01   Did you know that's a thing you can do

01:31:02   that you can talk into your phone to send a message

01:31:04   if you can't like, don't have time to type right now,

01:31:06   or maybe you have difficulty typing?

01:31:08   And it's also an ad, right?

01:31:11   And it is also an unexpected information disclosure.

01:31:15   All of that is true.

01:31:16   You just have to look at this feature and say,

01:31:18   are these the correct trade-offs, right?

01:31:21   I think it's, we would all agree

01:31:22   that there should be some way to turn it off.

01:31:24   We could debate whether it should be on by default, right?

01:31:28   But like, it serves all of those purposes.

01:31:31   And I think it's less important

01:31:33   what Apple's motivation was for putting in it,

01:31:35   although I can imagine having worked in big companies,

01:31:37   that everything I just said to justify it

01:31:39   would absolutely be used to sort of explain

01:31:43   why we have to include the feature,

01:31:44   when in reality, maybe someone's motivation is like,

01:31:46   we should drive up brand satisfaction with Siri

01:31:49   and sell more HomePods or whatever.

01:31:51   But regardless of what their motivation is

01:31:53   for putting the feature,

01:31:54   it does serve all those functions in real life.

01:31:56   And some of those functions are good,

01:31:58   and some of them are not so great.

01:32:00   So I don't think this feature is as bad as Margot's saying,

01:32:04   and it's not as good as Casey's saying.

01:32:06   It's you really have to decide for yourself

01:32:08   what you think about it.

01:32:08   And I would imagine the only thing we can all agree on is,

01:32:12   disclosure and options are better.

01:32:13   Because then if you don't like it, you can disable it.

01:32:16   - See, and I appreciate the value

01:32:19   that you're talking about,

01:32:20   about telling people what the features are,

01:32:22   and improving discoverability.

01:32:24   - And explaining why the message is a garbled mess.

01:32:26   - Yes, those are all, those have positive value,

01:32:30   but I think this is an inappropriate place and way to do it.

01:32:34   And I think the downsides are significantly worse

01:32:38   than the upside.

01:32:39   Like for example, and just a separate version of this,

01:32:41   almost every feature that is annoying to a lot of people

01:32:45   has benefit to somebody, or has upside to somebody.

01:32:49   Like there's this feature that's been in mail,

01:32:51   I think since about iOS 12 or 13,

01:32:54   where if you move a couple, if you do a multi-select,

01:32:58   and do a move to a message to a folder,

01:33:02   sometimes it will try to figure,

01:33:05   it'll try to guess what folder you're likely to move it to

01:33:07   based on something, and it will put up,

01:33:10   instead of the folder selection screen,

01:33:13   it will put up an action sheet first,

01:33:17   saying move messages to junk mail, or other, or like other.

01:33:22   And you gotta click the other to then bring up the sheet

01:33:25   to pick the folder.

01:33:27   And I can imagine the discussion that went into

01:33:29   the design of this feature of like,

01:33:30   hey, if we can guess based on the senders

01:33:33   of what you have selected,

01:33:35   where you're moving these three messages,

01:33:38   we should ask the user to be cool and smart and do that,

01:33:42   and maybe that'll delight them.

01:33:44   The problem is, for me at least,

01:33:46   this feature guesses wrong the vast majority of the time.

01:33:49   And it only comes up about maybe a third or a quarter

01:33:53   or a fifth the time that I try to move messages.

01:33:56   And so, my experience of using this is,

01:33:59   I try to move messages in mail,

01:34:01   and most of the time, I hit the move button,

01:34:04   and then the sheet comes up to move it,

01:34:06   and it lists all my folders,

01:34:07   and I tap the one to move to.

01:34:08   Sometimes, I'm interrupted in this workflow

01:34:13   by this sheet trying to be smart

01:34:15   and trying to guess what I want.

01:34:18   If it guesses right, I can tap that top button,

01:34:23   and I have saved no taps,

01:34:27   I have saved no time,

01:34:29   I've just been kind of like jarred, kind of interrupted,

01:34:32   because what I was expecting to happen,

01:34:34   which happened most of the time,

01:34:35   this was different this time.

01:34:38   So, I would say that's not a clear benefit, actually.

01:34:41   It's at most a lateral move.

01:34:43   If you think about the even worse case,

01:34:46   which is for me the more common case,

01:34:48   which is it guesses wrong,

01:34:51   now you've interrupted me,

01:34:53   you've jarred my flow,

01:34:56   and I have to do now an additional tap

01:34:58   than I would have had to do before

01:35:00   to say other or whatever that button is.

01:35:03   Then I have to pick my folder

01:35:06   that wasn't the thing it guessed,

01:35:08   and by the way, it never learns,

01:35:10   and I'll make the same mistake tomorrow.

01:35:12   And so, this is a feature where,

01:35:15   yeah, it sounds like a good idea on paper,

01:35:17   and it does have some kind of potential benefit

01:35:20   to somebody, maybe, if you think about it,

01:35:23   but in practice, the downsides should outweigh that,

01:35:28   and the downsides are clearly,

01:35:30   okay, when this guess is wrong, it's really bad.

01:35:32   When a guess is right, it's only kinda good.

01:35:35   So, that feature should be removed.

01:35:37   I don't know why it's still there.

01:35:38   It should be removed.

01:35:39   It's been there for probably two or three years.

01:35:41   - You just need to improve that,

01:35:42   because Apple's just bad at doing those features,

01:35:44   but I love apps that keep track of what I do

01:35:47   and give me the most common things,

01:35:49   but if you do it badly like that,

01:35:50   where it's a two-tiered system,

01:35:51   and also a guess is wrong, of course, that's just terrible,

01:35:54   but just to give a simplified example,

01:35:56   if you just did it based on recency

01:35:57   and sorted by recent usage and it had a single list

01:36:00   and everything was on the list,

01:36:02   the only difference would be what's sorted to the top.

01:36:04   You would never need to go to another screen

01:36:05   to find another one, and if it was working well,

01:36:08   the ones that you do use would be at the top.

01:36:10   So, that type of feature can be done better,

01:36:13   but yeah, I get what you're saying,

01:36:14   that this is a feature that has downsides

01:36:16   that outweigh the benefits.

01:36:18   In the case of sent with Siri,

01:36:20   I mean, it really depends about how you feel

01:36:22   about all the things that we just outlined.

01:36:24   How much value do you apply to keeping it a secret

01:36:26   that you sent with Siri and having ads thrown in your face

01:36:31   versus the benefits of maybe this will teach people

01:36:34   how to use the phone better versus even stuff like that

01:36:37   with the learning.

01:36:38   This is the tricky part about learning features.

01:36:40   Once you know that your phone can do this,

01:36:41   you should never have to see that message again

01:36:43   from somebody else, but how does the phone know

01:36:44   that you know that your phone can do this?

01:36:46   That's why it's difficult to make those kind of features

01:36:47   and not have them annoying, but I would guess

01:36:51   that most people don't even know this feature exists

01:36:53   because they never even look at that text.

01:36:55   - Right, and also, I would assume,

01:36:58   I've only seen the sent with Siri thing a couple of times,

01:37:02   and I don't know if that's because my friends

01:37:04   don't usually use Siri or if it has some kind of

01:37:08   time-based throttling where maybe it only shows it

01:37:11   once a day from a given recipient or something like that.

01:37:14   - Or it could be like those annoying things

01:37:15   these drive me nuts in macOS where when you first install

01:37:17   like a new version of the macOS, it's like,

01:37:19   learn about the new features of Big Sur,

01:37:20   and the only way to make it shut up is to click the link,

01:37:23   click through it and say, fine, open the webpage for me.

01:37:25   - Right, and then instantly close it.

01:37:26   - And now I never wanna see you again.

01:37:27   So I do wonder if you hit learn more once,

01:37:29   does that make it go away?

01:37:30   This is also, by the way, for people who don't know,

01:37:32   I'm pretty sure the solution to most of the terrible ads

01:37:35   in Apple stuff for you to sign up for their services

01:37:37   and crap is to click through them

01:37:40   and sort of begin the process, but then bail,

01:37:43   and then you can usually make the thing go away,

01:37:45   which is terrible, I'm not promoting this.

01:37:46   I'm just saying like if you wanna solve

01:37:48   the annoyance problem on your phone,

01:37:50   like people just like leave it on their,

01:37:52   the setting screen forever and they just get angry about it.

01:37:54   Go into it and say, set up Apple Wallet,

01:37:56   set up Apple Wallet, it's like,

01:37:57   but I don't want to, set up Apple,

01:37:58   just start the process and then bail,

01:38:00   and usually it will stop bugging you

01:38:03   in the same way that when it wants to tell me

01:38:05   about Big Sur, I have to click show,

01:38:07   let it open a page in Safari,

01:38:08   and then hopefully never have to see it again.

01:38:10   - So Casey just sent us a test message,

01:38:13   and what's interesting, I see it on my phone

01:38:15   running the iOS 14.4 RC, and it says sent with Siri,

01:38:20   but it does not say learn more.

01:38:23   - No way, are you serious?

01:38:24   - Yeah.

01:38:25   - I have sent with Siri and learn more.

01:38:26   - So I think I did once tap on that

01:38:30   to see what the heck it's doing.

01:38:31   - I'm gonna learn more now.

01:38:32   - Oh no, don't learn more.

01:38:34   - No, I'm gonna learn more.

01:38:36   All right, it's a tiny single page,

01:38:39   it just says this message was sent using Siri,

01:38:42   and then it tells how to use Siri, blah, blah, blah,

01:38:44   but that's it, and it's just a done button,

01:38:45   so now I've hit done.

01:38:46   All right, it still says learn more.

01:38:49   I'm back on the messages screen.

01:38:50   Let me go out of the conversation and back in.

01:38:53   Still says learn more.

01:38:54   You wanna send me another message, Casey,

01:38:56   and I'll see if it--

01:38:56   - Send a message to John Siracusa and Marco Arment.

01:38:59   - What would you like the message to say?

01:39:00   - Hello, fellas, period.

01:39:02   - Would you like me to search the web for hello, fellas?

01:39:04   (laughing)

01:39:06   - You're the worst.

01:39:07   - Yeah, see, I got it again, same thing.

01:39:10   - All right, so now the previous message

01:39:12   just says sent with Siri, but to learn more

01:39:14   only appears on the newest message.

01:39:16   - Oh, that's weird.

01:39:17   - So it says sent with Siri, and the next one says

01:39:18   sent with Siri, learn more.

01:39:19   - What if you force quit messages and go back in?

01:39:22   - We're not reflexively force quitting our apps anymore,

01:39:24   Casey. - Yes, I know.

01:39:25   (laughing)

01:39:26   - Anyway.

01:39:27   - I go back, I just did that, no change.

01:39:30   - Okay, that's worth a shot.

01:39:31   - Anyway, the point is this,

01:39:34   I do not think this is an appropriate use

01:39:37   of this kind of thing.

01:39:38   I don't think that the messages stream

01:39:41   is an appropriate place for Apple to inject

01:39:44   any kind of promo, and I don't think this type

01:39:48   of unintended information disclosure is a good idea

01:39:52   or appropriate for iMessage, regardless of whether,

01:39:55   the benefits that this feature has

01:39:57   of possibly excusing typos and everything else,

01:40:00   by the way, I mean, when you type a message in messages,

01:40:03   it's full of typos 'cause autocorrect sucks,

01:40:05   so people are used to that, right?

01:40:08   - But there are different kind of typos,

01:40:09   because Siri really can just be completely not even close

01:40:14   to what you said, in a way that autocorrect, at least,

01:40:16   like the letters are probably near on the keyboard,

01:40:19   but Siri is just in the wilderness sometimes,

01:40:22   and you get things that look like someone's having a stroke,

01:40:24   it's like a Markov chain, right?

01:40:25   And I never see that kind of failure mode with typos.

01:40:29   You see maybe one or two words,

01:40:30   you can guess what they were trying to type,

01:40:32   but I don't know, I think this feature is very much

01:40:36   like read receipts or read receipts,

01:40:39   depending on how you wanna pronounce it,

01:40:40   in that I think it should be something

01:40:44   that people can opt out of if they want,

01:40:47   but in the case of sent with Siri,

01:40:50   I think the default should be on,

01:40:51   kind of like in the new versions of the OSes.

01:40:54   It's not that they default read receipts to be on,

01:40:57   but they prompt you.

01:40:59   Like, so I think there's no way to set up a new phone

01:41:01   or a new Mac without, and use messages without it asking you,

01:41:04   hey, do you wanna send read receipts?

01:41:06   And you having to at least answer that question.

01:41:08   I wouldn't prompt people with the sent with Siri.

01:41:11   I think it should just be a setting,

01:41:12   but I kind of think the default should be yes,

01:41:14   just because until they can make their transcription better,

01:41:17   like that should be their goal.

01:41:18   Make a transcription better enough

01:41:19   that that feature of this is no longer useful,

01:41:21   and then it shouldn't be on by default.

01:41:23   But it really depends on how you value,

01:41:27   what values you place on the various aspects of this feature.

01:41:30   It has upsides, it has downsides.

01:41:31   Markov clearly puts way more weight on the downsides,

01:41:33   and so thinks it shouldn't be there.

01:41:35   I bet most people are neutral on it

01:41:37   because they don't care about this crap.

01:41:38   I fall slightly in favor of leaving sent with Siri

01:41:42   to explain the inexplicable messages by default.

01:41:45   - What if it said sent from the iPhone 13 Pro Max?

01:41:49   - But as Casey said, it doesn't.

01:41:51   It doesn't say that.

01:41:52   Like, it's a slippery slope argument, right?

01:41:53   It says what it says.

01:41:54   - That's true.

01:41:55   Well, what if the feature that it was advertising

01:41:58   was only available on the newest phone?

01:42:01   - Yeah, no, it could be worse.

01:42:02   Like, I don't disagree that it could be worse.

01:42:04   Like, and there are, as you point out,

01:42:05   there are things that are worse.

01:42:06   Like, hey, sign up for Apple TV Plus

01:42:07   and add stuff to Apple wall.

01:42:08   Those are worse, like unequivocally, right?

01:42:10   And more annoying to get rid of.

01:42:11   But that's why I think I'm mostly okay with this one

01:42:14   because it's not worse.

01:42:15   - Yeah, I mean, we could find a million ways

01:42:18   where I would find it to be really gross.

01:42:20   But the thing is, it just says, you know,

01:42:23   send with Siri, learn more.

01:42:24   - It is another data point in the trend, though.

01:42:25   Like, because they basically have opened the door

01:42:29   to doing this, to like putting in little messages

01:42:32   under messages, you know, slippery slope arguments say

01:42:35   once they've done this one thing,

01:42:36   they're not gonna do the most terrible thing.

01:42:38   But there is some argument to be made

01:42:40   that they have coded up the ability to communicate

01:42:43   this sideband data and display it in little messages.

01:42:45   That makes it ever so slightly easier

01:42:47   for them to do something else.

01:42:48   So it's worth watching.

01:42:49   - Yeah, I mean, as soon as this is possible to use

01:42:52   for more direct promotional, like financial gain ways,

01:42:56   I think this increases the odds, they'll do it.

01:42:58   - I mean, the other aspect of it is like I talked about,

01:43:00   like, you know, the learning aspect is absolutely true.

01:43:03   And I think that is actually something they should do

01:43:07   in the OS, like when you send someone money,

01:43:09   the question may that with Apple pay cash or whatever,

01:43:11   they'd be like, how did that work?

01:43:13   How did that happen?

01:43:14   That's a question a new user is likely to have.

01:43:16   And just in time info that says, hey, you just figured out

01:43:19   how to receive this money from this person,

01:43:22   you can send them to other people too.

01:43:24   Click here to learn more.

01:43:26   Like right there at the time it happened

01:43:27   when you might have that question, that's a, you know,

01:43:30   again, you have to strike the right balance,

01:43:31   but I think that's a useful thing that the OS should do

01:43:34   to teach people who are using it what it can do for them

01:43:38   at the right time in the right context.

01:43:39   And I think that something like this qualifies,

01:43:41   like I'm not against having decorations on messages,

01:43:45   you know, because Apple pays happens in messages

01:43:48   to explain the features.

01:43:50   It's just that you can't nag people about it.

01:43:52   You don't want it to seem too spammy.

01:43:54   You don't want to disclose information

01:43:55   that you don't have to so on and so forth.

01:43:57   So the Apple pay cash is a cleaner case and it's like,

01:44:00   you know, sent with Apple pay cash,

01:44:01   you know they sent it with Apple pay cash.

01:44:03   You're using Apple pay cash, right?

01:44:04   But maybe you have no idea what Apple pay cash is

01:44:07   and you think it's cool and would like to use it

01:44:08   and you want to learn more.

01:44:10   That's the time to have that little blue link, right?

01:44:14   Yeah, so it's tricky.

01:44:16   OS design is tricky.

01:44:17   You don't want to seem creepy,

01:44:18   but you also want to progressively disclose functionality

01:44:23   to people who otherwise wouldn't show it

01:44:24   and you do want to explain your ridiculous typos.

01:44:27   - And it's funny to me because there are two examples

01:44:29   of things that I don't think are promotional,

01:44:31   but I find to be far more frustrating,

01:44:34   both with regard to messages.

01:44:35   First of all, I have the feature that I think came out

01:44:38   a couple of iOS's ago.

01:44:39   The feature where it'll announce incoming text messages

01:44:42   if you have AirPods in.

01:44:43   So it'll say, you know, message from Mark O'Armond.

01:44:44   Hey man, how's it going?

01:44:46   - Does that work reliably for you by the way?

01:44:48   - No, it does not.

01:44:49   - I have that on and it seems, at first,

01:44:51   like you know, it seems like it'll read

01:44:53   about one to two thirds of the messages I get.

01:44:58   And the other ones, it just won't read

01:45:00   and I can't figure out why.

01:45:01   It's like some of them are short, some of them are long,

01:45:03   some of them have pictures, some of them don't have pictures.

01:45:06   I can't figure out the pattern.

01:45:07   - Have you had it explained to you that it's bailing,

01:45:10   that it's not gonna read it

01:45:11   'cause the message is super long?

01:45:12   I think it's been very consistent for me

01:45:14   'cause I get, for whatever reason,

01:45:16   I get a lot of messages when I'm like doing dishes, right?

01:45:18   So I have my AirPods in and 100% of them

01:45:20   are announced in some form,

01:45:21   but sometimes I think there's one like phrasing or line

01:45:25   where it's like, you got a message from this person

01:45:27   and I'm not gonna read it 'cause it's super long.

01:45:29   So if you wanna read it, go to your phone.

01:45:31   Like that's obviously not what they say,

01:45:32   but that's the gist of it, right?

01:45:34   And you know, so I kind of appreciate that

01:45:37   'cause I don't want a giant long message to be read,

01:45:39   but it's been pretty consistent.

01:45:41   The only time it totally messed up

01:45:42   is I got a message in a day and it, you know,

01:45:46   Siri does this not just in the context of messages

01:45:49   being announced in your AirPods, but just in general.

01:45:51   You know, with all the videos of Siri

01:45:53   getting caught in a loop or something, this happened.

01:45:55   It was reading a message and then Siri just started saying,

01:45:59   see, see, see, see, see, see.

01:46:02   - I've never seen that.

01:46:03   - For a very, very long time.

01:46:04   And I went and looked at the message

01:46:05   and it had an E with an accent on it.

01:46:08   You know, like the little E with a little accente-gu

01:46:11   or whatever on the thing.

01:46:12   It's the only weird character in the message.

01:46:14   It was a short message.

01:46:16   It did not have the letter C, the word S-E-E

01:46:18   or any word that sounds like that anywhere in it

01:46:21   and just Siri said, see, see, see

01:46:24   for, I don't know, a good minute.

01:46:26   (laughing)

01:46:26   - I've never had that happen.

01:46:27   But the thing that happens to me constantly

01:46:30   when this is what I was starting to bring up.

01:46:31   - Wait, can I guess real fast?

01:46:33   - Mm-hmm.

01:46:34   - By the way, do you know you can reply by saying reply?

01:46:36   - Oh my God, it's so annoying.

01:46:37   (laughing)

01:46:38   It's so annoying.

01:46:39   Like the first time, the first time,

01:46:41   I was genuinely like, oh, I didn't know that.

01:46:44   I have now learned more.

01:46:46   This is excellent.

01:46:47   But it happens all the time.

01:46:50   And what's even worse to me is that in one session,

01:46:54   I've put my AirPods in, I've received several text messages

01:46:57   and then I will later take them out.

01:46:59   In that one time, between the time I've put in the AirPods

01:47:04   and the time I've taken them out,

01:47:05   I'll receive that friggin' prompt four or five times

01:47:09   and it's so annoying.

01:47:11   I've got it.

01:47:12   - Well, it's like learning more about Big Sur.

01:47:14   You have to maybe once say, did you know that?

01:47:17   Answer and say, yes, I did know that.

01:47:19   (laughing)

01:47:20   Or just actually reply.

01:47:22   But I'm with you, Casey.

01:47:23   I get this all the time.

01:47:25   - Or do it once, yeah.

01:47:26   - It sets me on fire every time

01:47:28   because usually what has happened is I'm walking somewhere,

01:47:32   my hands are in pockets in the winter

01:47:35   or they're pulling a wagon full of stuff or something

01:47:37   so I can't easily operate the controls

01:47:40   and I'm trying to listen to a podcast.

01:47:44   And so all I want, when I'm hearing it try to read out

01:47:48   the automated message that my bank is sending me

01:47:50   that a bill paycheck went through.

01:47:52   (laughing)

01:47:55   So by the way, I will never need to respond to the contact

01:47:59   that is the five digit code or whatever

01:48:01   that my bank texts me from.

01:48:03   But it always says, by the way, you can reply.

01:48:06   And I'm like, you just read out this huge long message

01:48:09   that I don't even need to hear

01:48:10   and now you're adding this long promo to the end of it.

01:48:13   I just wanna get back to the podcast I was listening to.

01:48:16   - Yep.

01:48:17   - Yeah, that's an example of trying to explain functionality

01:48:19   gone terribly wrong

01:48:21   because it is good for people to know that once

01:48:24   or maybe twice, but not constantly.

01:48:26   And the other problem with it is

01:48:28   if we're complaining about Siri,

01:48:29   my major complaint with Siri recently has been

01:48:31   Siri refuses to disengage.

01:48:34   Siri will activate because I will try to summon my sweetie.

01:48:39   And that unfortunately sounds like Siri.

01:48:41   In fairness, I chose the pet name

01:48:46   for my wife long before Siri existed.

01:48:48   Unfortunately, it sounds a lot like Siri.

01:48:51   And so Siri often activates in my home

01:48:53   and I cannot get Siri to disengage

01:48:55   because whatever I said after that,

01:48:57   Siri's off to the races with like,

01:48:59   oh, let me tell you about the restaurants near your house

01:49:03   or whether the haircutting place is open.

01:49:05   There's like, I don't know what Siri heard or whatever,

01:49:08   but it goes off on this thing.

01:49:10   And it's like, do you want me to,

01:49:12   it tells me at a restaurant,

01:49:13   do you want me to call this restaurant

01:49:14   and make an order or whatever?

01:49:16   And it's like, I want, you know, it's the classic,

01:49:20   I don't even want to say if it's a Dubai Friday

01:49:22   or back to work, Alexa, stop, right?

01:49:24   I just want to end the interaction.

01:49:26   I want, I want just cease, desist, no more.

01:49:29   I did not summon you, go away.

01:49:31   And I cannot figure out what to say to Siri

01:49:33   to make that happen.

01:49:34   Siri, stop, Siri, okay?

01:49:35   I don't want to have to engage and say like,

01:49:38   no, not that restaurant,

01:49:39   'cause then she'll read the next restaurant.

01:49:41   (laughing)

01:49:42   You know, I just, I need to,

01:49:44   like that was something,

01:49:45   maybe that might've been Google,

01:49:46   I forget which one it was,

01:49:47   but one of the voice assistants in my house

01:49:49   misheard something and was giving me a litany

01:49:52   of things to choose from.

01:49:53   And I couldn't figure out how to bail out of there too.

01:49:55   And it's like, do I have to now order food

01:49:56   from a restaurant to make this stop?

01:49:58   Like, is there no way to say,

01:50:00   I'm not going to pick any of these.

01:50:02   I wasn't, you misheard me.

01:50:05   So operator, there needs to be like command period

01:50:09   for voice assistants of just like, whatever escape, no more.

01:50:13   Like I did not summon you, you have misheard me.

01:50:15   I'm talking to my wife,

01:50:17   whatever it is that you're doing, stop it immediately.

01:50:19   To be fair, most voice assistants, including Siri,

01:50:21   are pretty good about like, they're playing audio

01:50:23   and you just want them to stop.

01:50:24   But if they're trying to engage you

01:50:27   in what they think is this useful interaction

01:50:30   about whatever the heck they thought you said,

01:50:32   I can't make them stop.

01:50:33   Please, Siri, disengage.

01:50:35   - Have you tried asking, learn more?

01:50:37   - Oh God.

01:50:39   Yeah, like, I mean, that's what I said.

01:50:40   Maybe I just have to order food.

01:50:41   It's like, oh, well, that's the rules.

01:50:43   You gotta order food now.

01:50:44   Just pick one of these restaurants in your area

01:50:48   and buy food from it, that's it.

01:50:49   - So my favorite thing with the,

01:50:53   did you know you can reply,

01:50:54   is that oftentimes the failure mode for a, you know,

01:50:58   reading out an incoming text message is,

01:51:00   new message from Aaron Liss.

01:51:02   Did you know you could reply?

01:51:04   Like it skips the actual message.

01:51:07   And so it's like, yes, that's wonderful that I can reply,

01:51:11   but I don't know what I'm replying to.

01:51:13   - Unfortunately, Aaron probably doesn't listen

01:51:14   to the program, but if she did,

01:51:15   I would tell her the next message you send

01:51:17   to your husband should be,

01:51:18   did you know you can reply to Siri?

01:51:21   Make that the text of your message.

01:51:23   And then you get like double bonus points

01:51:24   if Siri inserts that declaration before reading the message,

01:51:29   which contains the same text as that declaration.

01:51:31   - Oh my God, it's so bad.

01:51:32   - Maximum trolling.

01:51:33   - Then really quickly, the other thing that drives me nuts,

01:51:35   it's message related, but not Siri related,

01:51:38   is as I've mentioned a couple of times on the show,

01:51:41   I am in several group conversations with mixed phone OS's.

01:51:46   So some Android users, some iOS users.

01:51:49   And I understand why this is the way it is,

01:51:53   but oftentimes I will find myself doing a tap back

01:51:57   in these mixed mode conversations.

01:51:59   And so instead of, well, I guess if I recall correctly,

01:52:03   my phone will parse the tap back correctly.

01:52:06   So if I like some other message,

01:52:08   it will show the little thumbs up on it.

01:52:10   But everyone else in that conversation,

01:52:13   including other iPhone users,

01:52:15   will see Casey liked some other message, blah, blah, blah.

01:52:19   And it's so frustrating.

01:52:20   Like if tap backs aren't a thing in SMS and MMS, that's fine.

01:52:25   But don't give me the freaking option.

01:52:27   Like I get it's consistency or whatever,

01:52:29   but I don't want the option.

01:52:30   Like it's so frustrating.

01:52:32   And it's especially bad when you're like sending images

01:52:35   back and forth in a group chat.

01:52:37   And you'll see Erin Liss liked an image.

01:52:41   Well, that's great.

01:52:41   Which freaking image did she like?

01:52:43   Oh God, it's so frustrating.

01:52:45   - The worst part about the text version of that

01:52:47   is because what you did in your UI

01:52:49   was you pressed the menu or whatever and picked a picture,

01:52:53   which was a thumbs up.

01:52:54   And then their system is saying,

01:52:58   I know you picked a picture,

01:52:59   but I think I know the words that represent the feeling

01:53:02   that you meant when you picked that picture.

01:53:03   So I'm gonna send those words,

01:53:04   which is so dumb because there's a thumbs up emoji.

01:53:07   So just send the thumbs up emoji.

01:53:09   It's the same picture more or less.

01:53:10   - Right, like imagine if when you typed emoji,

01:53:14   that when that appeared on Android,

01:53:16   it was just the emoji names replacing it.

01:53:18   - Oh God, that'd be so bad.

01:53:19   - Right, especially with the emoji that we use in context

01:53:22   that don't match the names, right?

01:53:23   Because of what they look like.

01:53:24   I mean, that's the danger of emoji in general,

01:53:25   is that you don't know what it's gonna look like

01:53:26   on the other person's computer.

01:53:27   - Why are you always talking about peaches and eggplants?

01:53:29   - But yeah, tap backs.

01:53:30   Tap backs are useful,

01:53:31   but like I feel like the text iteration of tap backs

01:53:35   could be much closer,

01:53:36   especially in cases where there's a very similar emoji.

01:53:39   - Thanks to our sponsors this week,

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01:53:50   You get things like ad-free shows

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01:53:55   And thank you very much, everybody.

01:53:57   We will talk to you next week.

01:53:59   (upbeat music)

01:54:02   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

01:54:04   ♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

01:54:06   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:54:08   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:54:09   ♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪

01:54:11   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:54:12   ♪ John didn't do any research ♪

01:54:14   ♪ Marco and Casey wouldn't let him ♪

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01:54:57   ♪ Tech podcast so long ♪

01:55:00   - I'm clearly a little punchy tonight.

01:55:03   And so I think the only way to make myself feel better

01:55:06   is for the three of us to agree

01:55:08   that whatever these pictures are that flew by my screen

01:55:12   right as we started recording of the new Model S interior,

01:55:15   holy crap, they're bad.

01:55:19   Holy crap, what's going on?

01:55:21   - Here's the thing.

01:55:23   What we're all talking about and why we're all moaning,

01:55:25   I think is 90 something percent about the steering wheel.

01:55:28   Let's ignore the steering wheel for a second

01:55:31   and just look at the rest of this interior.

01:55:33   It's got a big screen in the middle of the dashboard.

01:55:35   It's landscape instead of portrait,

01:55:37   but otherwise does not look that ridiculously different

01:55:40   than the Model 3.

01:55:41   And in fact, not really that different from the Model S.

01:55:43   It's got a little instrument cluster

01:55:45   in front of the steering wheel

01:55:47   that looks like a regular instrument

01:55:49   crossing over the screen.

01:55:50   It looks fine.

01:55:51   And everything else in the interior looks not that radical.

01:55:55   It's got a center armrest.

01:55:56   It's got places for like phones to go.

01:55:59   It's got a rear view mirror on the windshield.

01:56:02   Everything looks pretty much normal.

01:56:03   So is it fair to say

01:56:05   that we are entirely moaning about the steering wheel

01:56:07   or is there something else about this interface

01:56:09   that you think is awful?

01:56:10   - I don't like that it's landscape, I don't think.

01:56:13   Now it's a little unfair of me,

01:56:16   more than a little unfair of me to make this declaration

01:56:18   because although I have driven Model 3s

01:56:20   and I have driven Model Ss, including back to back,

01:56:23   I haven't driven either in at least a year, I don't think.

01:56:28   But I think I much prefer the portrait operation

01:56:33   of the old Model S like Marco has

01:56:36   than I do the landscape operation of the Model 3

01:56:39   because it feels to me more like everything is nearby.

01:56:43   And maybe that's my own hang up, I don't know,

01:56:45   but it feels like everything's nearby.

01:56:47   Whereas within landscape,

01:56:48   it feels like there's that crap way over on the other side

01:56:50   of the car and then there's the crap by me.

01:56:52   - Marco, is it just the steering wheel?

01:56:54   Or I know you don't like the Model 3

01:56:55   and you like the Model S better,

01:56:56   but would you, again ignoring the steering wheel,

01:56:59   would you pitch a fit over the landscape screen

01:57:01   or is it mostly just the steering wheel

01:57:03   that's freaking you out?

01:57:04   - First of all, I think wheel is a generous term.

01:57:06   I think it may be the steering bucket.

01:57:08   (laughing)

01:57:09   - We're not getting that yet.

01:57:10   - We'll get there, we'll get there.

01:57:11   We'll talk about the steering bucket in a minute.

01:57:12   But the things I didn't like when I test drove the 3

01:57:16   were not necessarily because the screen was landscape.

01:57:20   That being said, I do like the portrait screen

01:57:23   of the Model S and I think the only reason

01:57:25   they're doing this is for, again,

01:57:29   reasons that benefit them, but not necessarily the drivers.

01:57:33   - So you can play Witcher on it

01:57:34   because Witcher doesn't run portrait.

01:57:35   - Yeah, and I love the game,

01:57:37   they're showing off you can play games in this.

01:57:38   One of them is Stardew Valley.

01:57:39   Yeah, I love Stardew Valley.

01:57:41   I would never play it in my car.

01:57:42   I'm not gonna sit in my car for hours on end

01:57:45   playing a deep involved game.

01:57:47   - Well, when you're at the supercharger killing time

01:57:51   and because you have kids in the car,

01:57:52   that's why there's a screen in the backseat.

01:57:54   Like I understand why they're advertising gaming

01:57:56   as a feature, although I think it is absurd

01:57:58   to have the promo shot for your car to show games.

01:58:01   Like it's great that they can do that,

01:58:03   but this isn't a minivan or a camper.

01:58:05   - Yeah, I think the reason that they are moving

01:58:08   the Model S to a landscape screen

01:58:10   is for reasons that benefit them specifically,

01:58:13   so that they can share more of the UI and stuff

01:58:16   between the Model 3 and the Model S,

01:58:17   'cause the Model 3 has a landscape screen.

01:58:19   I think that's the main reason they're doing this.

01:58:21   It's not because it's better.

01:58:23   What they're doing is basically like making everything

01:58:25   be able to share the same UI and parts,

01:58:28   regardless of whether it's like the better choice

01:58:30   for that vehicle or not.

01:58:32   And so I see why they're doing it.

01:58:33   It makes sense for them to do it.

01:58:35   It doesn't mean it does anything for me.

01:58:37   As for the actual being landscape instead of portrait,

01:58:41   the stuff that's gonna be on the far right of that screen

01:58:43   is gonna be very hard to reach.

01:58:44   - Stuff on the left is closer.

01:58:46   - Yeah, that being said, this is not gonna be a,

01:58:51   like I'll get used to it, but I'm not gonna like it

01:58:54   for the first little while, if I ever get one of these.

01:58:56   And I'll get to that in a little while.

01:58:58   But the main reason I don't like the 3 so much

01:59:02   is the lack of having the directly in front

01:59:04   of the driver screen.

01:59:06   And this, fortunately, I was afraid they would get rid

01:59:08   of that second screen on the S.

01:59:10   Well, first, first I was afraid they would never make

01:59:13   another S and they would discontinue it.

01:59:15   Because they sell so many more 3s that the S really

01:59:20   is not a high priority for them.

01:59:21   It's their Mac Pro, basically.

01:59:22   So I didn't think, I thought there was a reasonable chance

01:59:26   that the S would never get rid of the design

01:59:28   and would eventually stop being made in favor

01:59:31   of their higher volume cars.

01:59:32   So I'm glad they're working on it.

01:59:34   I'm very glad they're working on it.

01:59:35   And I'm glad that they have put in the effort

01:59:37   to make it new in some way.

01:59:40   Even if it does look like that they are trying to,

01:59:43   by doing this redesign, trying to reduce the amount

01:59:46   of work that they're putting into it by doing things

01:59:49   like giving it the same screen layout and stuff as the 3.

01:59:53   Anyway, that being said, so glad they're working on it,

01:59:56   glad they're updating it.

01:59:57   And I'm very, very glad that it retained that

02:00:00   directly in front of the driver second screen.

02:00:02   Because I find that screen very important.

02:00:04   And one of the things I don't like about the 3

02:00:07   is how much you have to do on the center screen

02:00:10   because there isn't that second screen.

02:00:12   And how much you have to look at that center screen,

02:00:14   again, because there isn't that second screen.

02:00:16   So by having the second screen at all,

02:00:17   I'm very happy about that.

02:00:19   The rest of it, John, you're right,

02:00:23   this looks largely like the current Model S

02:00:25   in many of the general themes.

02:00:29   Again, leaving us at the steering bucket for a minute.

02:00:32   One thing I'm disappointed that they didn't change,

02:00:35   apparently, every Tesla so far has done something stupid

02:00:40   with opening the doors.

02:00:42   The Model S has its pop-out door handles.

02:00:47   The Model 10 has the whole gull wing thing.

02:00:50   The Model 3 has its weird handles where it's like,

02:00:53   if you push it the way that it looks like you should push it,

02:00:57   it yells at you that you pushed it wrong

02:00:58   and that you might have heard it.

02:01:00   Tesla makes amazing drive trains

02:01:05   and they have a lot of really good ideas,

02:01:07   but it seems like they are desperate

02:01:09   to prove their innovation in areas

02:01:12   that we don't really care about,

02:01:13   like doors and door handles.

02:01:16   And when they do that, they make problems for drivers

02:01:21   because the way they choose to do that

02:01:23   is usually finicky or unreliable or unintuitive or all three.

02:01:28   The Model S, I've had two now,

02:01:31   the only problems I've ever had with the Model S

02:01:35   are mostly door handle problems.

02:01:37   The first one, I had, I think two of them just die

02:01:41   and have to be replaced.

02:01:42   Even the current one, which is about three years old,

02:01:46   almost three years old, the current one,

02:01:48   I haven't had any failures with the door handles,

02:01:51   but I will often have the thing

02:01:53   that every Model S owner has at some point had happen

02:01:55   where you're walking around the car,

02:01:58   like maybe you're loading it up

02:01:59   and so it unlocks itself 'cause the key's nearby,

02:02:01   and then as soon as you go to grab the handle to get in,

02:02:04   it's about to retract them.

02:02:06   And so you grab the handle and it kinda bounces back out

02:02:10   'cause it's canceling the retraction

02:02:12   that it was about to do,

02:02:14   and then you get stuck in this loop

02:02:15   where you just grab it and it just bounces,

02:02:17   and you grab it and it just bounces.

02:02:18   You kinda have to lock the car from the key in your pocket,

02:02:21   let it retract all the way,

02:02:22   then unlock it, open it back up again.

02:02:26   It's just, oh, and by the way, they don't work in the ice.

02:02:28   That's another fun thing.

02:02:30   - I don't eat.

02:02:30   - Ice freezes them over so that makes them work a lot less.

02:02:33   Similar problem with the auto-folding side mirrors.

02:02:37   And used to be a problem on the charging door.

02:02:39   It's a little bit less of a problem there now.

02:02:41   Anyway, so they had this cool door handle

02:02:44   that makes it look really cool and futuristic,

02:02:46   a little bit, I guess,

02:02:47   but it makes problems in practice for owners of it.

02:02:51   It makes it less reliable, less predictable,

02:02:54   and it causes problems in extreme conditions

02:02:57   like cold, like super cold weather.

02:02:59   And I understand that the reason why they have

02:03:02   their tractable door handles is in part to look cool,

02:03:04   but in part because it probably also reduces drag

02:03:06   by some very tiny percentage.

02:03:08   That being said, a redesign of the car,

02:03:11   I would expect to identify whatever significant problems

02:03:15   existed in the previous version and try to fix them,

02:03:18   try to address them in some way.

02:03:20   And I don't know how anybody who's ever owned an S

02:03:23   could possibly ever say,

02:03:25   "Keep the door handles exactly the same.

02:03:27   "They're no problems."

02:03:28   (laughs)

02:03:29   I hope the next S keeps these same door handles.

02:03:31   Nope, never.

02:03:33   I don't know any owners who have not had problems

02:03:35   with door handles at some point.

02:03:36   So that's the first thing I would have fixed.

02:03:38   Fix the door handles.

02:03:39   Put regular door handles on there.

02:03:41   I'll take the 0.5% reduction in range.

02:03:43   Fine, just put regular door handles on there

02:03:46   and make them operate like regular door handles.

02:03:47   And I would say that about literally all of Tesla's models,

02:03:51   'cause they keep messing with door handles.

02:03:53   And I don't know what they're doing.

02:03:55   - And you don't even need it for the aerodynamics,

02:03:57   because every electric car feels they need to do that

02:03:59   for mileage, but you don't have to have a weird door handle

02:04:03   for it to be smooth.

02:04:05   I was thinking of this,

02:04:06   I mean, obviously this is not in the same price class,

02:04:08   but there's some Ferrari that I was watching a review of,

02:04:11   and they had flush door handles.

02:04:13   It's just entirely smooth over the surface of the door.

02:04:15   Nothing sticks out.

02:04:16   So aerodynamically, it's the same

02:04:17   as all of the Tesla door handles.

02:04:18   The whole point is they're flat.

02:04:19   They don't stick out into the airflow.

02:04:21   The only difference is there was this little outline,

02:04:23   and you basically shove your fingers into it,

02:04:25   and it's a little door that opens inward.

02:04:27   And once you tuck your fingers into there,

02:04:28   you pull on what is now the handle,

02:04:30   'cause you looped your fingers over.

02:04:33   And that uses the advanced technology called a hinge.

02:04:36   It's not electronic. (laughing)

02:04:39   It's a piece of metal that hinges in.

02:04:41   Unlike your gas cap or your charging cap that hinges out,

02:04:45   this one just hinges in.

02:04:47   It's not as good as obviously,

02:04:49   the other thing I just posted in the chat,

02:04:51   which is a picture of my door handle,

02:04:52   which is the epitome of door handle,

02:04:54   but my door handle is not aerodynamic, so I understand.

02:04:57   But my door handle is a handle that you grab with your hand,

02:05:00   and it works every single time.

02:05:03   And it is fairly resistant to ice

02:05:04   because you have a big metal thing to grab onto

02:05:06   and you just yank it, and it cracks through the ice.

02:05:09   The aerodynamic ones where you have to poke in,

02:05:11   I can imagine them being more vulnerable to ice.

02:05:14   But yeah, you're totally right.

02:05:15   This is not the area to innovate.

02:05:16   We talked about this many, many moons ago

02:05:18   when we were talking about Tesla.

02:05:19   Part of it, especially in the beginning,

02:05:21   was to make the Tesla seem futuristic and cool

02:05:23   because that was part of the selling proposition.

02:05:25   It's part of what attracted buyers to it,

02:05:27   and it's part of what made you think you were cool

02:05:29   for owning it because hey, look, the door handle's come out.

02:05:31   But at this point, Tesla needs to let go of that.

02:05:34   - It instantly loses its cool

02:05:36   the first time you can't open your door in public.

02:05:39   - Yeah, yeah.

02:05:41   I'm not saying, if it was 100% reliable,

02:05:44   it would still be kind of annoying,

02:05:45   but if it was unreliable, it's terrible.

02:05:46   But as far as Tesla's concerned,

02:05:48   they've already got your money,

02:05:48   which is why they should have revised it

02:05:51   sort of when the second round of Tesla buyers

02:05:53   were buying their next Tesla

02:05:54   because the novelty is worn off,

02:05:56   they don't want the unreliability.

02:05:57   It's like, just put a door handle on.

02:06:00   And here's the thing, the door handle aerodynamics,

02:06:03   it's real, you can measure it,

02:06:04   but it is much less significant than, say,

02:06:07   the wheel covers, right?

02:06:08   And tons of Tesla owners pick

02:06:10   the less aerodynamic wheel covers because they look nicer.

02:06:15   If Tesla had the option to pick

02:06:17   a normal Honda Accord door handle,

02:06:19   but people would take that in a second

02:06:21   'cause it's less annoying,

02:06:22   and they don't care about the aerodynamics.

02:06:25   The coolest looking wheels destroy your mileage

02:06:27   much worse than those door handles would.

02:06:30   - Yep.

02:06:30   The good news is though, Marco,

02:06:32   since they've solved all the other low-hanging fruit,

02:06:35   like panel gaps and build quality and things of that nature,

02:06:38   I'm sure the door handles are coming next.

02:06:40   - I mean, they took a second swing at it with the 3,

02:06:43   and their solution, I think, is probably more reliable

02:06:46   than the five-store handles,

02:06:47   just because it doesn't involve electronics,

02:06:49   but still not great, and I think kind of weird and awkward.

02:06:53   So they should keep trying,

02:06:54   but apparently they're not trying.

02:06:55   But anyway, we need to talk about the five steering.

02:06:57   - We'll get there, we'll get there.

02:06:58   One other major change that I am very sad to see

02:07:03   is that in the latest builds of the S,

02:07:06   like before this change that was announced,

02:07:09   like it just recently, new build to the S,

02:07:11   lost the ability to have a sunroof.

02:07:14   - What?

02:07:15   - Yeah, the S no longer offers a sunroof.

02:07:17   The 3 has never offered one.

02:07:19   And I don't know if the 10 ever did,

02:07:21   'cause it has that same solid glass roof as this.

02:07:23   I probably didn't.

02:07:24   So they no longer make sunroofs, it seems.

02:07:28   I don't like that at all.

02:07:29   Again, I love my car, which has a sunroof and is fine.

02:07:34   Like, I don't know why they would delete the sunroof.

02:07:36   I'm sure it was, again, for some kind of,

02:07:38   you know, parts savings thing,

02:07:40   like make things more uniform across the line.

02:07:42   Whatever benefits the all glass panoramic roof has,

02:07:46   you know, maybe, but I love a sunroof.

02:07:49   And I really don't want to buy a car

02:07:52   that doesn't have one if I can avoid it.

02:07:54   I use it all the time.

02:07:55   - Been there, been there.

02:07:57   - Yeah, you know, I use it all the time.

02:07:59   I just use it, again, on this trip,

02:08:00   'cause it's the winter.

02:08:02   And a lot of times in the winter,

02:08:04   it's too cold to have a window open right next to you,

02:08:07   but a little bit of ventilation from a sunroof is nice.

02:08:11   It's just, I don't know, I don't know what they're doing.

02:08:13   Anyway, so that's one of the things.

02:08:15   When I heard that they had stopped offering the sunroof,

02:08:18   I was hoping that it was like a temporary thing

02:08:20   as they, you know, cleared out inventory.

02:08:22   And then when they heard there was a refresh,

02:08:24   I thought, oh, maybe they found a way to put it back.

02:08:26   But nope, it's just gone.

02:08:28   - Yeah, that's really too bad.

02:08:29   Very quickly, one thing that I really do like about this,

02:08:32   and I don't know how to verbalize why I like it,

02:08:36   but the front and rear look more like car fronts

02:08:41   and car rears than they do,

02:08:43   like I think it was your second Tesla Marco

02:08:46   where it was just like a slab of plastic.

02:08:48   - Yeah, that's the current, that's what I have now, yeah.

02:08:51   - And this looks like it has a front air dam

02:08:54   like in the front.

02:08:55   Oh, that's repetitive, but you know what I mean.

02:08:57   It looks like it has an air dam in the front.

02:08:59   The back has some like lines on it that aren't remarkable,

02:09:04   but there's enough difference to my eye

02:09:07   that it makes it look far more appealing

02:09:09   and far more like a car-shaped car than it used to.

02:09:13   - Yeah, I'll give you that.

02:09:14   - Marty, you have a good picture of the new S back.

02:09:16   I don't see the--

02:09:17   - On the Verge article, I will put a link in there.

02:09:19   - It's also, they have a whole configurator up.

02:09:20   You can go on the website and look,

02:09:22   and there is one up there.

02:09:23   - I think the front is a downgrade.

02:09:24   I actually like Marco's front

02:09:28   'cause they added like flaps and gills and wrinkles,

02:09:31   and it looks-- - Yes, I love it.

02:09:32   - No, it looks too busy.

02:09:33   The back looks like it has a bigger,

02:09:36   more emphasized sort of diffuser area.

02:09:38   - Yes.

02:09:39   - I mean, really these are the type of tweaks

02:09:41   that you would expect within a generation

02:09:43   from model year to model year,

02:09:44   only with Tesla you gotta wait like five years

02:09:46   for them to happen.

02:09:47   - I would also argue I don't think either wheel option

02:09:51   is good for my needs.

02:09:52   Like I don't like the default Tempest wheels.

02:09:56   I don't like that weird kind of like,

02:09:58   two-color weird flat design they have,

02:10:01   and I would never get the 21s

02:10:02   because I live in a place with winter,

02:10:04   and I would break those skinny tires in a second

02:10:07   'cause we have potholes here and bad roads.

02:10:10   So I would need to get 19s,

02:10:12   and these 19s are terrible, in my opinion.

02:10:14   - The arachnid wheels are very pretty,

02:10:18   but yeah, you do not want 21-inch wheels, I don't think.

02:10:21   - We appear to have lost

02:10:22   my light wood interior option as well.

02:10:24   Like there's very few options here,

02:10:27   which is, they've been going this direction for a while,

02:10:29   but there are way fewer options than there used to be.

02:10:33   And none of them have light wood anymore.

02:10:35   So let's go to the steering bucket.

02:10:38   - Why are you calling it a bucket?

02:10:39   Why does this resemble a bucket, Tio?

02:10:41   It doesn't look like it contains anything.

02:10:43   - Like the U shape, it looks like if you cut a bucket in half

02:10:45   like the cross-section of a bucket.

02:10:47   - Yeah, that's a reach.

02:10:48   Anyway. - Oh, no, hey, you know what?

02:10:49   If you guys ever wanted to drive a Knight Industries 2000,

02:10:52   now's your chance.

02:10:53   - Yep, I mean, it's a little bit different

02:10:55   than I ride around.

02:10:56   So this is part of the trend that kind of started

02:10:59   with flat-bottom steering wheels from race cars.

02:11:01   I believe, Casey, correct me if I'm wrong,

02:11:04   but I believe flat-bottom steering wheels

02:11:06   came into race cars just because race car cockpits

02:11:08   are incredibly cramped and it makes it easier

02:11:10   to get the driver's body and legs

02:11:12   under the steering wheel in tight quarters.

02:11:14   Does that sound true to you, Casey?

02:11:15   - I don't know if that's factual,

02:11:17   but that absolutely sounds true.

02:11:18   And my Golf R does have a flat-bottom steering wheel.

02:11:20   - Right, and so if my recollection

02:11:23   of how flat-bottom steering wheels started to be a thing

02:11:26   is correct in racing, then flat-bottom steering wheels

02:11:29   in non-race cars is essentially skeuomorphism.

02:11:32   It's a physical feature that no longer serves a purpose,

02:11:35   but is carried over just because it's done that way

02:11:38   in race cars.

02:11:39   And it's not just skeuomorphism,

02:11:40   but it's also aspirational.

02:11:42   Well, race cars have flat-bottom steering wheels,

02:11:44   so your car has one, so that makes your car

02:11:46   more like a race car.

02:11:47   When in reality, if your car was as cramped as a race car,

02:11:49   you would never buy it because you would say

02:11:51   this car has no room in the interior

02:11:53   and I can't fit and it's ridiculous, right?

02:11:55   And so they had flat-bottoms for a while,

02:11:57   and Ferrari steering wheels and supercar steering wheels

02:11:59   have been getting even flatter bottoms.

02:12:01   Meanwhile, in the actual race car world,

02:12:04   like F1 steering quote-unquote wheels

02:12:06   have looked unlike wheels entirely.

02:12:09   They don't have flat-bottoms, they are essentially

02:12:11   fighter pilot kind of airplane yoke things

02:12:15   that are like, well, there's a thing attached

02:12:17   to a thing that you turn, but it is not a wheel,

02:12:21   it is not round, it's not even continuous,

02:12:23   it's more like the Knight Rider thing of like,

02:12:24   there's a handle on the left and a handle on the right

02:12:27   and a bazillion buttons in the middle

02:12:28   for all your functions of your F1 car.

02:12:30   That's what race car steering wheels look like

02:12:32   in the Formula 1 type things now.

02:12:35   Cars don't yet look like that.

02:12:37   So the logical conclusion of constantly chasing

02:12:40   race car steering wheels because race cars are cool

02:12:43   is that the way F1 steering wheels look,

02:12:46   slowly our cars, our steering wheels start to look like that.

02:12:49   Ferrari steering wheels do look a lot like F1 steering wheels

02:12:53   but they're still a continuous shape in a, you know,

02:12:58   you start with a circle and you squish sides of it

02:13:00   and you make it flatter and you make it bulge here

02:13:02   and you put some spokes on it or whatever.

02:13:04   Tesla, I think, is the first, at least the first

02:13:06   mass market car company or close to mass market car company

02:13:09   that has decided they're going to finally ditch

02:13:13   the idea that it is a shape, like a ring of any kind.

02:13:18   And instead, like Marco said, it's more like a U.

02:13:20   So it looks like kind of like an airplane yoke

02:13:22   only you can't push it in and out.

02:13:24   You just twist it from side to side.

02:13:26   But it's not a wheel, it's not a ring, it's a rectangle

02:13:29   and the rectangle sort of extends downward from the center

02:13:34   which is great for visibility of the instrument cluster

02:13:36   if you're going straight 'cause there's nothing

02:13:38   blocking its view but it's bad if you have any fondness

02:13:43   or appreciation of the utility of a wheel

02:13:45   which means that you can turn it hand over hand

02:13:48   you can slide through your fingers as it unwinds

02:13:50   and do all those things that cars which have

02:13:53   a way larger distance, you know, number of rotations

02:13:57   lock to lock on the steering than say an F1 car does.

02:14:00   So I really, really question what it's going to be like

02:14:04   to drive a normal car with a normal turning radius

02:14:07   with a thing that is not a wheel

02:14:09   and that is very rectangular and very low.

02:14:13   So I, having not used this thing,

02:14:15   are giving it a tentative double thumbs down.

02:14:18   - Agreed.

02:14:21   I just, I don't, I can't imagine why

02:14:24   this would be an improvement in any way

02:14:26   and I could swear, and I can't back this up,

02:14:29   but I could swear that I had read an interview

02:14:32   with like Hasselhoffer, a stunt driver

02:14:33   or something like that saying that it was really dangerous

02:14:37   to drive the Knight Rider car on account of the wheel

02:14:41   and that it was so unlike anything else

02:14:43   and it was, you would go to grab it

02:14:45   and it wouldn't be there and it was just terrible.

02:14:48   And I can't believe that I'm looking at a configurator

02:14:52   where this is the wheel.

02:14:53   Like I could totally believe that some promo shots

02:14:57   had the wheel in it, like when we were looking

02:14:58   at the Verge article that'll be linked in the show notes,

02:15:00   oh yeah, of course they have this ridiculous yoke,

02:15:02   whatever, that's fine.

02:15:03   But Marco, I didn't realize that the configurator's up

02:15:05   and I'm looking at the configurator and it's there

02:15:08   and it's scaring me because this is an absolute deal breaker

02:15:12   for me, I mean, I would test drive one, I suppose,

02:15:15   but unless I was bowled over by how much better

02:15:19   and easier it was than I expect,

02:15:21   this in and of itself is a deal breaker for me.

02:15:24   - And to be clear, like in the case this wasn't clear

02:15:26   from my earlier explanation, the reason this works

02:15:28   in race cars is race cars, you don't have to turn the wheel

02:15:33   like three and a half revolutions to go from full left

02:15:36   to full right, their steering is much quicker.

02:15:39   Like you can go from all the wheels as far left

02:15:42   as they can go to the wheels as far right as they can go

02:15:44   without doing multiple revolutions of the wheel.

02:15:46   And in general, racetracks don't have lots of places

02:15:49   where you have to do hand over hand turning.

02:15:50   It's mostly just twist the wheel to the right,

02:15:53   twist the wheel to left, two hands of the wheel

02:15:55   the entire time, no crossing over your hands

02:15:57   and no need to ever fully rotate a race car steering wheel.

02:16:00   But we don't drive race cars, we drive regular cars

02:16:02   with normal turning radiuses and steering ratios

02:16:06   that often require the wheel to turn more than 90 degrees

02:16:09   to negotiate turns in a parking lot or whatever.

02:16:12   So you will be, unless they've massively changed

02:16:15   the steering ratio in a terrifying way in this car,

02:16:17   you will be in fact rotating the steering wheel

02:16:19   through more than 90 degrees, which means like Casey said,

02:16:23   maybe you'll reach for that wheel when you cross

02:16:25   your hands over and the wheel won't be there

02:16:26   'cause there is no wheel to rectangle

02:16:28   and now you have to keep track of where the grabby parts

02:16:30   of the rectangle are, which is why steering wheels

02:16:33   have utility.

02:16:34   So I, you know, it's hard to say without actually driving

02:16:38   this how terrible it's going to be,

02:16:39   but I can imagine many problems with this.

02:16:43   And of course the main problem, even if this was vastly

02:16:46   superior, is that people are used to wheels in cars.

02:16:49   And so, especially for old people like us

02:16:52   who are set in our ways or whatever,

02:16:54   it may be difficult for people who are used to a wheel

02:16:56   to suddenly not have a wheel.

02:16:58   And I do wonder how many people are gonna get

02:17:00   into accidents just because they're not used

02:17:01   to not having a wheel.

02:17:02   Even this turns out to be the better design.

02:17:05   Like in the future, all cars are like this,

02:17:06   this is a superior design.

02:17:08   For something like a car that's been so similar

02:17:11   for so long, messing with the primary controls

02:17:14   is dangerous because there is a population of people

02:17:17   who are just used to the way it used to work.

02:17:19   You really have to change things slowly to sort of allow

02:17:22   the old people to age out and die and allow the young people

02:17:24   to learn the new thing, and this is not a slow change.

02:17:27   This is, hey, you had a wheel, now you don't.

02:17:29   Now it's a weird rectangle, good luck.

02:17:31   - Well, and it gets worse, I think.

02:17:33   Well, actually, no, that's the worst part

02:17:35   is the wheel shape.

02:17:36   However, they've also deleted the two stalks

02:17:40   that were next to the wheel, which served a lot of functions.

02:17:44   - Just use the touchscreen.

02:17:45   - And well, you see the close-up picture of the Virg,

02:17:48   I'll place the link here.

02:17:49   The close-up picture that the Virg has suggests

02:17:52   that there are touch controls now on the wheel

02:17:54   for things like your turn signals.

02:17:57   - Oh, hell no.

02:17:59   - Speaking of Ferraris, the new Ferrari thing

02:18:01   also had touch controls on the steering wheel.

02:18:03   I'm like, touch controls on the steering wheel,

02:18:05   how does that get out of the first brainstorming session?

02:18:08   It's like, your hands are all over the steering wheel,

02:18:10   especially if you're gonna be crossing over

02:18:12   on this weird rectangle on the steering wheel,

02:18:13   grasping your hands, accidentally activating

02:18:15   every capacitive touch thing all over the friggin' thing.

02:18:19   Touch controls on the steering wheel,

02:18:20   please, manufacturers, just say no.

02:18:21   Like, what are you even thinking?

02:18:23   Like, your hands are all over there.

02:18:24   It's like the touch bar all over again.

02:18:26   - Yeah, and people who see the Model S before

02:18:31   but have not driven one or don't have a lot of experience

02:18:34   with one often think, mistakenly, to date,

02:18:39   that you have to do everything via touch screen

02:18:42   and that's kind of odd and maybe unsafe

02:18:45   and certainly not a good thing.

02:18:46   But the reality of driving the S up until now

02:18:49   is that it actually has physical controls

02:18:52   for so much of the most common stuff

02:18:54   that you don't need to touch the touch screen

02:18:57   constantly during driving.

02:18:59   The most common need you would have to touch it

02:19:01   would be either navigation, which I think is fine,

02:19:03   it's fine to have that be a touch function.

02:19:05   It's actually better than any other car

02:19:07   I've ever used for that purpose.

02:19:08   Or things like adjusting the climate control.

02:19:11   You do have to tap it for that.

02:19:12   But the common stuff like your turn signals,

02:19:15   windshield wipers, volume up and down,

02:19:17   track forward, track back on audio,

02:19:19   all of that stuff you can do now via physical controls

02:19:23   either on the stalks that are next to the wheel

02:19:26   or on a handful of buttons and the little scroll wheels

02:19:28   that are on the wheel.

02:19:30   This gets rid of the stalks

02:19:33   and looks like it might be moving things like turn signals

02:19:37   to these big flat touch areas that are on top of it.

02:19:40   And that I really, really don't think

02:19:44   is going to be a good move.

02:19:45   Because having to do everything via touch controls

02:19:49   for a device that you're literally not supposed to

02:19:52   or allowed to and safely can't because you might die,

02:19:55   look at while you're operating,

02:19:57   that's not a good idea, I don't think.

02:20:01   And even little stuff like on the S to date,

02:20:06   you've been able to adjust the current cruise control

02:20:09   set speed via a stalk on the side.

02:20:13   On the Model 3, as far as I know,

02:20:15   I don't think that was ever an option.

02:20:17   I don't think the 3 has enough stalks to do it.

02:20:19   So on the 3, you've always had to adjust the set speed,

02:20:22   again as far as I know, correct me if I'm wrong please,

02:20:25   via the touch screen.

02:20:28   And when I drive with cruise control,

02:20:30   adjusting the set speed is a very common operation for me.

02:20:34   Maybe that's just me, it's very common

02:20:36   that I make adjustments to that speed.

02:20:38   One of the big reasons why I'm not interested in the 3

02:20:41   is that it makes that harder.

02:20:43   And I don't want that to be made harder.

02:20:45   What this new version of the S appears to do

02:20:48   is make tons of stuff that I do all the time,

02:20:51   like turn, harder.

02:20:53   And I don't know why they would do this

02:20:58   in a way that would result in anything that's better.

02:21:00   It looks like the actual controls

02:21:05   of using the steering wheel

02:21:07   for everything the outgoing Model S's steering wheel

02:21:10   was used for, from steering,

02:21:13   to all the controls that were on and around it,

02:21:16   they all appear visually to be worse with this new one.

02:21:21   And I have to wonder what the hell

02:21:22   they're thinking with this.

02:21:24   And when I see this, this makes me not want to ever upgrade.

02:21:29   - Yep, I don't blame you.

02:21:31   - I'm looking at the steering wheel closer

02:21:32   on this picture, the close-up picture.

02:21:34   And not only do the turn signals appear

02:21:37   to be on capacitive buttons on the steering wheel,

02:21:39   but they're both on the left side.

02:21:41   - Yeah, isn't that great?

02:21:42   - Like, to be clear, turn signals on the steering wheel

02:21:46   is fairly common in the industry now,

02:21:48   and it's actually pretty cool, you know,

02:21:50   like in some ways it is superior to stock,

02:21:52   some ways it's worse because the stock's not moving,

02:21:54   the signals do.

02:21:55   But I've never seen anybody

02:21:57   not take the obvious design, which is button on the left,

02:22:00   doesn't the left side of the steering wheel,

02:22:01   and button for the right turn signal

02:22:03   on the right side of the steering wheel,

02:22:04   it kind of just makes sense.

02:22:05   But no, Tesla didn't do that.

02:22:07   But yeah, capacitive is just, is maddening.

02:22:09   I'm looking at what these buttons are.

02:22:10   The horn is one of them?

02:22:11   - Yeah, I'm pretty sure, yeah,

02:22:13   there's a horn icon on the right side.

02:22:14   - The horn, the turn signals, the horn, the headlights,

02:22:19   like, just imagine, it's like the Apple TV remote.

02:22:23   The whole, and they put the rotaty ball,

02:22:26   except they have scroll wheels on either side,

02:22:27   which are cool, hey, hey, physical controls.

02:22:29   To get to those physical controls,

02:22:31   you must reach across the no man's land

02:22:33   of the capacitive touch buttons,

02:22:34   which can turn on your turn signals.

02:22:36   - Yeah, or spray the windshield.

02:22:37   - Your windshield squirter thing.

02:22:39   People who are gonna be driving this Tesla

02:22:41   are gonna have one of their blinkers constantly on,

02:22:43   their lights going on and off,

02:22:44   the horn occasionally blaring

02:22:45   and squirting going on in their window,

02:22:47   and then activating like the,

02:22:48   the hey Siri microphone thing,

02:22:50   what is that in the lower right corner?

02:22:51   - Yeah, it's their voice control thing.

02:22:53   - Now, we don't know that these are capacitive,

02:22:55   we don't know that they're Apple TV,

02:22:56   maybe you actually have to press on them or something,

02:22:58   but either way, they do not have anything

02:23:01   that lets you feel for them, right?

02:23:02   So even if they are pressure sensitive

02:23:04   and not, they won't activate when you brush across them,

02:23:06   like maybe we're wrong about that,

02:23:08   to figure out where the left and the right are,

02:23:10   you're just gonna have to memorize the zones they're in,

02:23:12   because there's no ridge, there's no indentation,

02:23:14   there's no physical way that you can feel

02:23:16   for these controls, which is so dumb.

02:23:18   Like look at the F1 steering wheels,

02:23:20   not a lot of capacitive touch controls

02:23:22   on an F1 steering wheel,

02:23:24   'cause they don't have time for that crap.

02:23:25   They need a button that they can press

02:23:27   and a wheel that they can turn,

02:23:28   and that's how you don't have to look at things

02:23:30   if they're just where they are.

02:23:31   Do you have to look to find your left and right turn signal

02:23:33   on the stalks on your car right now?

02:23:35   No, you never look at them, you just use them,

02:23:37   it becomes unconscious because their physical controls,

02:23:39   this is such a terrible idea.

02:23:41   - I don't see anything about this new steering wheel

02:23:45   that makes me think, oh, I wanna try that,

02:23:47   that looks interesting, or that looks good,

02:23:48   or that looks like an improvement.

02:23:50   It looks like 100% regression.

02:23:52   - Yep.

02:23:53   - It looks like they made everything worse.

02:23:54   - Well, the one improvement is you can see

02:23:56   the instrument cluster more clearly.

02:23:58   - I can see it now.

02:23:58   - When you're going straight,

02:23:59   it provides a clearer view of the thing.

02:24:01   - I can see it now, there's a hole,

02:24:03   there's a big gap when you have a steering wheel between.

02:24:06   - It really depends on how tall you are,

02:24:07   that's actually a tricky problem because--

02:24:09   - No, you can adjust the wheel, it's height adjustable.

02:24:13   - So you can adjust the wheel so it's the right distance

02:24:15   for your arm comfort, or you can adjust the wheel

02:24:18   so you can see the entire instrument cluster

02:24:20   without obstruction, but it's hard to do both,

02:24:22   and plus your head moves around when you're driving

02:24:24   'cause you're looking for traffic.

02:24:25   So that is the one, I'm gonna give that one,

02:24:27   the yoke style steering wheel gives you a less obstructed

02:24:31   view of the instrument cluster.

02:24:32   Now, on the flip side of that, the Model 3,

02:24:34   not having an instrument cluster gives you

02:24:36   a slightly less obstructed view of the road,

02:24:38   especially for people who are not tall.

02:24:40   So there's a benefit to not having that cluster there,

02:24:42   what is it, Toyota Echo style, or whatever the first car

02:24:44   to do that was to get rid of the--

02:24:46   - Saturn, I thought a Saturn might have done it first.

02:24:49   - No, I think the Echo, yeah,

02:24:50   that might have been the first one.

02:24:51   Boy, that was a terrible car.

02:24:52   So I don't see zero benefits, but whoa,

02:24:56   the downsides are so massive.

02:24:58   And some of them are just like the capacitive stuff.

02:25:00   Like I said, Ferrari has capacitive controls

02:25:02   on one of their new models, and they have a steering wheel,

02:25:05   a regular steering wheel with a flat bottom.

02:25:07   But no, capacitive controls on your steering wheel

02:25:10   are just a bad idea, and I hope not too many people

02:25:14   have to die for us to learn that.

02:25:15   Both turn signals on one side is a bad idea,

02:25:17   independent of the thing, and then the shape,

02:25:19   you know, I feel like we all have to have

02:25:21   an open enough mind about this that maybe the shape

02:25:23   does have advantages that we're not seeing,

02:25:25   but right now, I think it's terrible.

02:25:28   - I don't know how any Model S owner can look at this

02:25:31   and say, ooh, I want the new one.

02:25:33   Like, it just looks like it made so many things worse.

02:25:36   - Like many things in Tesla, like,

02:25:38   I don't think any of us have our,

02:25:40   it's not a mystery why this car looks like this.

02:25:43   The reason many things at Tesla are the way they are

02:25:46   is because somebody important, probably Elon,

02:25:49   thought they were cool.

02:25:51   Look at the Cybertruck, look at half the weird,

02:25:52   look at the freaking door handles,

02:25:53   like, sometimes things are the way they are.

02:25:56   A lot of the things that are good about Tesla

02:25:58   are because there is someone in charge who just,

02:26:00   you know, Steve Jobs style dictates

02:26:02   that you're gonna do a thing because it's cool.

02:26:06   And clearly, someone thinks this steering wheel is cool.

02:26:10   And I think a lot of buyers will also think it's cool.

02:26:13   And maybe they'll be thinking that just as they reach

02:26:15   for the steering wheel that's not there

02:26:16   and hit their, you know, brand new Tesla

02:26:19   into the corner of a building in a parking lot.

02:26:21   But we'll see.

02:26:22   - Yeah, it just, to me, Tesla is more like Twitter

02:26:26   than Apple, they have some incredible assets

02:26:29   and they do certain things so incredibly well.

02:26:32   But it seems like they're always trying to innovate

02:26:34   in ways they don't need to, in ways that actually

02:26:38   don't benefit their customers and that possibly suggest

02:26:41   that they don't understand their appeal.

02:26:43   That they don't, maybe they don't understand

02:26:45   why they make such good cars and why people love them

02:26:48   so much 'cause they innovate on weird things.

02:26:51   They make tons of like self-own, you know, mistakes

02:26:55   that are totally not necessary to make.

02:26:58   - They did throw a giant steel ball bearing

02:27:01   at their new car window.

02:27:03   - Right, yeah, exactly.

02:27:04   - Live on stage and it shattered so that is a perfect,

02:27:07   that is a perfect, I wouldn't say it's a metaphor

02:27:09   but it's just another instance of exactly

02:27:11   what you're talking about.

02:27:12   No one forced you to do that, Tesla.

02:27:13   You threw a steel ball into your own car

02:27:16   to try to brag about the window and it broke.

02:27:18   - Yeah.

02:27:19   - You made this steering wheel, you did it to yourself.

02:27:20   Like people would be excited about this car

02:27:22   if you just made it better than the S in incremental ways

02:27:26   but you said, you know what, let's screw up a steering wheel.

02:27:28   (door slams)