409: Midrange Snob


00:00:00   Is it only Sprite on those rare once-a-decade occasions that you treat yourself or is 7up acceptable?

00:00:06   Oh 7up is well do in a pinch but not really I mean I like 7up I do I like it

00:00:13   But it's it's like saying is it just chocolate or vanilla like I like both of them

00:00:16   But when you want vanilla and you get chocolate like oh, but I wanted vanilla, right?

00:00:20   So even though they look the same and people will say they taste kind of the same, you know

00:00:24   Anyway, I have no Sprite or 7up in the house and I never do. What about Sierra Mist?

00:00:29   Oh good question that is garbage and maybe you could use it to clean something. I don't know Wow

00:00:34   All right, so I'm sorry you said

00:00:38   7up if you can I mean, I don't know it depends on what mood I'm in right

00:00:42   It's like say we have a little chocolate if you can otherwise vanilla. Sometimes you want vanilla. Sometimes you want chocolate

00:00:46   I'm trying to nail you down. You're not letting me

00:00:48   I'm not I don't have strong feelings about drink a drink that I almost never drink like remember

00:00:53   This is the only thing you don't have strong feelings about John Sarah

00:00:56   well, here's the thing the only reason the only reason I'm known for this drink is because when I go out to a restaurant and

00:01:02   You know

00:01:04   Either the thing comes with a drink or I don't want to just have water because we're doing everything fancy

00:01:09   what I have to pick something to drink it's not water and

00:01:11   When I'm at home, I'm not forced to make that choice. I just have water all the time

00:01:15   Whatever makes you happy John. I used to have milk, but that's got too many calories and not good for your cholesterol

00:01:21   So well almond milk man. No, come on

00:01:25   Again, maybe if I need to clean something Wow

00:01:28   Wow almond milk is good. Come on

00:01:30   You listen to the milk episode of top four none of those none of those so-called milks are good

00:01:35   Well, yeah, they're all just different forms of sugar and starch

00:01:37   But but yeah, I'm in milk would be also a terrible choice to clean things with

00:01:41   Maybe it's like skin so soft where you're trying to get it like a sticker scum off

00:01:45   It's so it's so like slimy that it'll make the sticky stuff not stick. It's like an oily thing

00:01:50   No

00:01:54   On the milk you can't even clean with it

00:01:56   All right. We don't have time to kill John we have we have to hurry it up

00:02:00   Can we hear the one who's pressing me on my choice of drink?

00:02:03   I have a glass of water next to me on a different level than my computers. What else is new? I

00:02:07   Have I have a water bottle directly behind my keyboard in a glass full of ice that is prepared for later

00:02:15   That is sitting to the right of my magic track bed

00:02:18   And I have a giant 20 ounce bottle of house black cherry salsa sitting on my desk at the same level as most of my gear

00:02:25   Except for my MacBook Air because on top of a speaker which is running this entire operation through my LG 5k

00:02:30   Ultrafine monitor. Oh man, we're gonna get to that but let's not get there yet. All right, I

00:02:36   Would like to re-air my grievance and I will be very quick about it

00:02:41   Aaron is still having

00:02:45   Intermittent SMS and we're really group MMS issues

00:02:48   Please Apple for the sake of my marriage, please. Can we fix this for real this time?

00:02:54   You sort of fixed it and what was it like 14 one something and then 14 three or whatever just came out

00:03:00   It was like no no, we fixed it for realsies this time literally an hour ago. She was not receiving group MMS's

00:03:05   I filed a feedback before you all get angry feedback FB eight eight nine three zero zero three

00:03:12   There will be a link in the show notes Apple people. Please save me save me

00:03:16   Aaron is so over this and I am almost as bad as she is. This is ridiculous

00:03:20   This is a communication device that doesn't communicate. Please fix this. Thank you

00:03:24   All right. Tell me about B&O headphones

00:03:27   These are bang and all some headphones that I've mentioned last show

00:03:30   They're sort of like AirPods max and I think it's an interesting comparison

00:03:33   Because banging all of a sudden is a similar kind of like luxury fancy brand and in fact the appearance and construction is very similar

00:03:40   You know metal or the appearance of metal and you know

00:03:44   They even have a white model with the white pads and white strap and everything looks kind of air potty

00:03:48   So these are the BO play god. I really don't like I understand what they're going to be

00:03:52   No, but it's there it's be o pl a why it's a bad name. Anyway, the BO play h95

00:03:58   They are

00:03:59   $800 as you would imagine from bang and all of a sudden is like a little step up in terms of price from Apple because bang

00:04:04   All of a sudden is clearly a luxury brand. It doesn't have any pretense of being a real consumer brand. They're

00:04:10   23 grams instead of 385 like the max so a little bit lighter

00:04:13   But they do have metal on the open link in the show notes of these they come with the hard case and they are

00:04:19   Symmetrically folding but they do fold the ear cups into the negative space made by the headband

00:04:25   so they get smaller than the Apple ones and they come with a hard case two things that Apple chose not to do and or

00:04:31   Blew it on including depending on your stance on it and they come with a regular 3.5 inch 3.5

00:04:38   millimeter audio cable thing plus the two prong little

00:04:42   Airplane headphone adapter plus a USB C day what looks like C day charging cable

00:04:48   And bang also makes a bunch of different models. They make this $800 one

00:04:52   They also make a $300 one and a $500 one which drop various amounts of features from the $800 one

00:04:58   So this is a very direct

00:05:00   competitor in terms of

00:05:03   Pricing feature set and aesthetics they gets a bunch of things right that Apple's doesn't by the way

00:05:07   I think this fancy one also like the entire outside of the ear cup is like a

00:05:10   Giant dial so it even gets the physical controls right I believe that's a swiping thing

00:05:15   I think it actually turns. I don't know most of B&O's headphones

00:05:18   They have like like touch panel controls

00:05:21   Which frankly I I've tried I've heard a bunch of people keep asking me about whether I've tried the H95s and and B&O

00:05:27   Made a wonderful wired headphone the h6 second gen was one of my favorite wired headphones ever

00:05:34   but I have tried almost all of their Bluetooth models up to about two years ago and

00:05:40   They were all garbage to me like and I couldn't believe that the company that made that amazing wired h6 second gen

00:05:47   Could then never follow it up with anything that sounded nearly as good as it in their wireless segment

00:05:54   And they've always had really finicky controls

00:05:57   However, I think they they have more premium materials than what Apple's going for

00:06:04   I think they are by some tastes including mine. I think more attractive than than the AirPods max

00:06:10   But you know like I see what they're going for

00:06:13   But as far as I know they have not yet made a great sounding wireless headphone

00:06:17   But I have not yet tried this model

00:06:19   But honestly they burned so much credibility with me over the years that I I would not

00:06:24   Drop $800 to buy this even if I thought I could easily return it

00:06:28   I mean that's kind of the bangin' all some thing is they're always going to be

00:06:31   Overpriced for what you get like that's their whole brand in fact if they weren't it would be damaging to their brand to be reasonably

00:06:37   priced you know

00:06:38   No, except the h6 the h6 second gen was like I think 250 or 300 and it sounded like it

00:06:43   It was great, and it was light and comfortable, and it was just an amazing headphone

00:06:47   That's why they had to get rid of it. It was damaging to their brand. Yeah, it was too. It was too good

00:06:51   I just double-checked on these ones. They do actually have a physically turning dial

00:06:56   I'm not sure I'm used to use but like the reason I bring them up is just because they look so much like the AirPods and

00:07:01   because bangin' all of a sudden being I

00:07:03   Don't know more experienced more more practically minded than Apple which sounds strange for a company

00:07:09   That is known for its impractical looking you know electronics having a compact folding headphone with a hard case

00:07:16   That comes with the accessories you would expect in an $800 headphone

00:07:20   So I feel like Apple really needs to learn something if they want to play in this space

00:07:24   It's okay to include the cable and not make you pay 35 bucks for it

00:07:28   It's even okay to make a hard case and an adapter for airplanes. It's fine. It doesn't diminish your brand to do that

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00:09:36   The AirPods max button can cycle between three states one of which is off which is selectable in Bluetooth preferences

00:09:47   wait, which are we talking about the

00:09:49   The digital crown button or so the the the other button there has been confusion about this Marco

00:09:56   We'll be able to clarify but here I'll lay out the confusion then you're you will give us

00:10:00   Definitive clarity in the review section which is coming. Don't worry everyone

00:10:03   so the confusion about the AirPods max and

00:10:06   Battery life last time was like oh do you have to put them in that stupid case to make them to go to sleep?

00:10:11   If you don't do that, they'll be on all the time and we're like, but why would they be on all the time?

00:10:14   They have a million sensors. They can tell when you're wearing them. Wouldn't they go off?

00:10:17   Matt pans Reno said that they fall asleep. We read that in the last episode his tweet about that

00:10:22   But if you take them off they do, you know

00:10:24   Go to sleep or going through an off mode or other people like no it's gonna drain your battery, right?

00:10:27   so this was a twist on this as the reviews are coming out that the button on the top the one that normally toggles between

00:10:33   transparency and

00:10:35   Noise cancelling there's a preference in Bluetooth settings and I think you can get to it through a control center as well

00:10:41   Well, you can change that to cycle through three things

00:10:44   It would press it once and it goes to transparency precedent getting those noise cancelling press the third time and it goes to a setting

00:10:49   Called off, right? So it's like, okay

00:10:51   Well, I guess you don't have to use the case for that because it goes to a setting called off

00:10:54   But that doesn't mean off as in the headphones are off

00:10:58   All it means is that it's not transparency and not noise cancelling at least that's what we know so far

00:11:03   So yes, it's just like the AirPods Pro. Yeah, which is exactly it's the same

00:11:08   It's the AirPods Pro feature set now

00:11:10   All that being said people are still freaking out about the idea that you can't turn them off

00:11:13   And so I mean, I'm not sure how long have you had these Marco a couple days a couple hours?

00:11:17   Oh, well, maybe you can't tell us about the battery life things

00:11:20   But I will just add now that everyone who's had them for a little bit longer has said

00:11:23   If you're freaking out about the idea that you can't turn these things off

00:11:27   Don't worry because if you wore them all day long and played music really loud all day, they would still last all day

00:11:32   So it's more of an academic concern than a real one

00:11:35   I would say that fairly definitively at this point if you get these and never want to use that stupid case

00:11:42   You'll probably be fine until I mean

00:11:45   Maybe the batteries go off a cliff in two years and they get they start getting terrible battery life

00:11:48   You have to replace the battery. But anyway, there's that and then panzer chimed in again about this thing

00:11:53   This is a bonus tweets. There are several states. Obviously they pause right away then a few seconds later

00:11:58   They shut down the connection. They just they aren't just on forever when you take them off. All right real-time follow-up

00:12:05   That bug about SMS is not being received properly. I just got a like three hour late group MMS

00:12:10   So it's happening to me too. I'm over it Apple over it. So over it

00:12:15   Okay

00:12:16   So Marco last we heard our intrepid hero was about to make his walk of shame with his extremely large computer

00:12:23   presumably in your bespoke carrying case

00:12:25   What's going on with your setup? You've been talking about the LG 5k your favorite monitor of all time

00:12:31   Can you update us on what the world is what the world is going on here?

00:12:35   so

00:12:36   Yeah, my I brought my iMac Pro into the Apple Store. I I brought it in my giant case on top of the dolly

00:12:43   I bought for it. So I wheeled this

00:12:45   I'm amazed they let me in the door

00:12:49   But but yeah

00:12:53   They were very nice

00:12:54   It's the stores in limited operation because of quarantine and so they just had like a few Genius Bar stations

00:13:00   Spread across like the front right as you walk in after the whole rest of the store shut down

00:13:03   So it's it's kind of a minimal operation, but they handled everything really well

00:13:07   They first said oh that sounds like it might be software ran a little diagnostic

00:13:11   But then the lead genius

00:13:13   Oversaw was like hey, you know, but this might be some other kind of weird thing. Let's take it in

00:13:18   So they I don't know do they use the term admitted it like in a hospital like they whatever it is

00:13:23   They they took it. They took it like, you know for a few days

00:13:26   And then have and then have called to say that it indeed failed some kind of firmware level

00:13:31   test so they could rule out software whatever that means and and they

00:13:37   have determined that it needs a new logic board and

00:13:40   Parts for that are a little slow right now. It seems the logic board could be 14 days out. Holy smokes

00:13:48   So so here I am as my temporary solution, which I knew I would have to use this for a little while

00:13:54   and this is part of the reason why I did this around Christmas because

00:13:58   We you know, we don't really do much for Christmas week. So I don't have like heavy computing needs

00:14:04   So I knew this would be a good time to not be with my main computer

00:14:08   But in the meantime, I have this

00:14:12   ultra fine

00:14:14   LG 5k monitor plugged into my quite wonderful and pleasant new m1 MacBook Air and

00:14:22   I have it in clamshell mode. I'm not using both screens

00:14:25   I'm only using the LG the air is closed and on top of a speaker over there with two cables plugged into it

00:14:31   because

00:14:33   the ultra fine

00:14:35   LG monitor is

00:14:37   Just so bad

00:14:39   Like it, you know as a screen it's fine

00:14:43   It is one of the only screens that has ever existed and I believe the only one currently for sale

00:14:51   that is

00:14:53   5k resolution at 27 inches

00:14:55   As far as I can tell there are no other ones. There's there's one by a planar which

00:15:00   It gets even worse reviews and use a DisplayPort instead

00:15:04   And it seems to be out of production or at least in very low production

00:15:08   And then there's this one and that's that's it. All the piece people are like, oh just there's a million 27 inch monitors

00:15:14   Yeah, they're all 4k because that's what gamers want

00:15:17   That's what Windows users want and none of them buy Macs and Mac people don't buy them

00:15:21   And so it's a whole different world and that doesn't cover this and the DPI is wrong and screen

00:15:25   Elements would be all the wrong sizes and everything. So I'm not interested in any of those

00:15:28   Oh, can we let me just interrupt you real quick because I can hear the typing of this news

00:15:33   Saying to you what is wrong with you get one of the 97 inch curved displays or one of those god-awful things that I?

00:15:41   Don't want to speak for you Marco, but as a fellow old man, I probably can I don't want a curved display

00:15:47   I don't want a 30 some inch display. I want something that's like my iMac

00:15:52   Well, I mean I have my iMac me know in this hypothetical. I want something that's like my iMac that's nice and flat and

00:15:58   Rectangular and 5k now I could alternatively and this is what I did at my jobby job. I could get smaller

00:16:05   4k monitors, but in my personal opinion

00:16:08   You need to be at 5k if you're gonna be at 27 or more inches

00:16:13   That's just my opinion, but that's the way I like it

00:16:15   And I think I speak for you in saying that I have zero interest in one of these

00:16:19   96 inch curved displays none do not care. I know people love them

00:16:23   They are not for me do not want please do not write us because we know they exist we do not want well

00:16:28   I mean two things number one like those are almost always not high DPI

00:16:32   So if you're what you're going for is like the retina look for max

00:16:35   They usually don't have the density to do that. But number two, this is very much not just your opinion

00:16:41   There's a range of DPI that monitors can have where think where screen elements on max will look

00:16:48   Like they're in roughly the right size range like how many pixels does it take to or like how many square inches?

00:16:54   Does you know a thing of this size take up? That's like a that's in a fixed range

00:16:59   So we have these these ranges of like what's a correct resolution for 27 inches

00:17:04   and the answer is either 2560 by something which is 1x and non retina or

00:17:10   51 20 by something which is 2x retina and

00:17:14   No one makes 3x and in this range yet, interestingly Dell makes an 8k monitor

00:17:19   But it's actually too high density to be 2x but too low to be 3x

00:17:24   8k and like it's like 32 inches

00:17:28   I think and 8k at 2x would have to be about 40 inches to have the right DPI range

00:17:33   But anyway, so and there aren't you're right. There are some

00:17:38   4k monitors that are in the right DPI range which at 4k is roughly 22 to 24 inches

00:17:43   There are some of those that exist but not a lot even of that and one of them is the LG ultrafine 4k

00:17:49   Anyway, so the the LG man

00:17:54   I haven't used this monitor full-time in in a number of years and I've forgotten like how

00:18:00   mediocre it is like to me the the two biggest problems are

00:18:05   The stand is total garbage that it's very it's very wobbly like

00:18:09   Talk about like typing on your keyboard and having your monitor wobble. This is way worse

00:18:13   It's it's a terrible stand for wobble way worse than like an iMac

00:18:17   Even on the same desk with the same keyboard and the same person banging on the keys

00:18:22   Also, it has the you know, like most PC monitor mounts. It has a 360 degree rotating thing

00:18:28   So you could rotate the monitor to portrait orientation or landscape if you want

00:18:31   But it doesn't like latch in very well to those even 90 degree rotations

00:18:38   So the most common thing of having it just regular in portrait orientation

00:18:42   It's really hard to get it exactly level

00:18:45   like it's it feels like it's slightly off all the time and you can like move it slightly and it stays like it's it's

00:18:50   It's a crappy cheap stand and the monitor is wrapped in a crappy cheap enclosure with a crappy cheap backlight

00:18:57   And there's tons of backlight leakage around the bottom edge

00:18:59   and so if you have like a very dark screen in a very dark room

00:19:02   You can see the bottom edge kind of glowing a little bit and it looks like gray instead of black

00:19:06   So yeah backlight leakage, but besides the stand the other major problem with this monitor is

00:19:12   That the USB ports that are on it. You basically can't use for anything that matters because they are unreliable

00:19:19   Extremely extremely unreliable and you can't use them for things like audio or keyboards

00:19:25   I'm not even sure what you can use them for I guess like charging your phone

00:19:29   You can use it for that but that's about all you can do reliably on those on those USB ports

00:19:33   so I

00:19:35   Have ordered the Cal digit Thunderbolt dock because it has by far seemingly the best reviews for Thunderbolt docks

00:19:42   because I'm relying now on

00:19:46   It while that gets here, which isn't here yet. I'm relying on my USB C hubs that I have

00:19:52   I have two USB C hubs one

00:19:54   I've never talked about because it's weird and boring and doesn't seem to exist anymore

00:19:57   and the other one is is like, you know, the one of those that everybody has for their laptops that has like the ethernet and the

00:20:03   two USB a and the card reader

00:20:05   You know an HDMI like that thing the thing that everybody has it cost about 50 bucks

00:20:08   Like I saw I have one of those and this other weird thing that has USB C upstream ports

00:20:12   But they're both unreliable in different ways and I at one point to get everything working

00:20:18   I had to daisy chain them both which is not a good idea and I had to then

00:20:24   The second one didn't have enough power to to power USB devices off of it. So I had to use its

00:20:31   Input port to like to plug in a separate USB C power adapter

00:20:36   So now I have this big like square of power routing and I'm like this there's no way this is going to work

00:20:42   And it actually kind of did for a while, but it caused weird

00:20:45   Noises and things not even just ground loops like weird other electrical noises in various things. I'm like, alright

00:20:51   I can't I can't be running an audio business and have all these all this noise everywhere

00:20:55   But anyway, this is a just an unreliable setup and what I ultimately want I am so far temporarily

00:21:04   Okay with having the laptop as my primary computer put into a monitor. It's not ideal

00:21:10   I would rather have a desktop

00:21:12   But right now you can't get the new m1 Mac mini in any reasonable amount of time if you want 16 gigs of RAM

00:21:18   I still ultimately want more

00:21:20   Gigs of RAM than that and more disk space than two terabytes

00:21:24   For my desktop solutions here

00:21:26   So so ultimately I think I am going to wait for an iMac or a higher spec Mac mini or a Mac Pro before I totally

00:21:33   replace this desktop, but in the meantime using it temporarily as

00:21:36   You know MacBook Plus monitor. It seems to be fine so far

00:21:41   I haven't ran into any major issues that have to do with like the laptop interfacing with this crappy display

00:21:48   The only issues I've had have been with peripherals and you know

00:21:51   Just getting getting all these terrible ports to work reliably

00:21:54   and the only thing that I think is gonna fix that is if the Cal digit thunderbolt thing is

00:21:58   Of the quality that everyone seems to think it is and say it is

00:22:02   then I will plug the laptop directly into that and then plug everything else into that and

00:22:09   Not even use the monitors ports or any of these terrible USB C hubs that I have at all

00:22:15   and that should

00:22:17   Theoretically fix my problems if it works

00:22:20   now I

00:22:23   Was tempted instead of ordering the Cal digit thing on Amazon and having it take almost a week to get here because Island

00:22:29   I was tempted to Island slash COVID slash Christmas, by the way

00:22:34   I was tempted to

00:22:37   Just set money on fire and just go to the damn Apple store and get the XDR and the Apple store also sells the Cal digit

00:22:45   So I was I was looking like hey what stores have this in stock tomorrow and what's the boat schedule that could possibly get me

00:22:52   there with enough time to get back before the last boat and I was looking into all this stuff and

00:22:58   looking into you know, what

00:23:01   What does the XDR seem like in practice and what is the 5k seem like at the LG 5k?

00:23:06   you know seem like in practice and do I really

00:23:09   want to be looking at like

00:23:11   I'm a professional. I

00:23:13   Like I am an Apple commentator and a professional developer. I am 38 years old. God damn it

00:23:20   Do I want to be looking at this screen that I hate every day?

00:23:23   Or do I want to get the screen that I like and look at that every day?

00:23:27   Like what am I working for? If I'm why do I why do I like Apple products?

00:23:33   Why do I want something terrible and ugly and that that has all these problems if I can get something great

00:23:39   I love this glimpse inside your internal monologue that leads you to buy expensive things

00:23:43   This is the devil that's on all of our shoulders. It looks just like Marco and it sounds like that. Yeah, exactly

00:23:49   Mm-hmm. So I I looked but

00:23:52   ultimately, like I basically like, you know made made a pro and con list between the XDR and the LG 5k and it's it's not as

00:24:00   clear-cut as

00:24:02   I would hope you know the XDR has some things about it that are

00:24:06   Significant downsides to me and you know, the price is the biggest downside

00:24:12   I mean, you know the configuration I want would be six thousand dollars plus five hundred dollars for Apple care plus tax

00:24:18   So just just under seven thousand dollars. Oh

00:24:20   Yeah, I have a very hard time

00:24:23   Justifying that for what it is and for what I need

00:24:28   Because I don't need the HDR side of it. I don't need that at all. I

00:24:33   Really don't like that. It has a fan. I know John

00:24:37   I know you said that you never hear it in practice and you're probably right but

00:24:41   I

00:24:43   Really dislike that it has a fan at all because for something that's that expensive that I would hope would be so long lasting

00:24:48   And so long-lived

00:24:50   Having a fan is a warning sign for me. It's that like I don't love that

00:24:54   There also is like practical downsides. Like I couldn't do my one cable solution with that because

00:25:00   6k takes up so much bandwidth over the thunderbolt 3 connection that there's not enough speed left

00:25:08   I'm not like, you know, I know there's like the weird display compression thing

00:25:10   But there's not much bandwidth left for those ports on it

00:25:14   That's why the ports are not Thunderbolt their USB and they're in many configurations USB 2 speeds that a USB 3 speeds and

00:25:21   You can't plug the 6k into Thunderbolt docks or Thunderbolt base stations or whatever

00:25:26   They're called like the Cal digit

00:25:28   You have to plug it directly into the computer at least as far as far as I know

00:25:31   It seems like no Thunderbolt dock supports it. So

00:25:34   That now there's two cables instead of one going to the laptop and two cables

00:25:38   I have to keep plugging and unplugging every day as I take my laptop upstairs and then bring it back downstairs like so

00:25:42   so there's it's just it adds a lot of downsides and I also I

00:25:46   don't like the

00:25:48   backlighting method of having those

00:25:51   576 LEDs that can all be individually controlled

00:25:55   Because that creates the potential for non-uniformity

00:25:58   In the backlighting that creates the potential for like those halos where you have

00:26:03   Something bright in the middle of a bunch of dark and you have like a big halo blob around it

00:26:07   I to me that's incredibly inelegant. I don't like when TV started doing that. I don't like Apple doing it

00:26:14   I'm not looking forward to the rumored micro LED screens that are coming in their higher-end products

00:26:18   I guess next year or sometime because they that's probably the exact same thing. I don't like that to me. That's an elegant

00:26:25   I I would rather have

00:26:26   every pixel be

00:26:28   Individually controlled and into and totally independent and totally consistent and uniform with every other pixel no matter what they are showing

00:26:34   I don't like display technologies that rely on hacks like that

00:26:37   And I know why they do it to get their XDR, you know dynamic range

00:26:41   I know that but I don't like that and I don't want that I want

00:26:45   Uniformity and elegance across the entire display panel and I don't have that with the XDR it comes close

00:26:52   But there's that there's that giant asterisk on that and I don't like that

00:26:55   If you're worried about it from an elegance perspective like that's your prerogative

00:27:00   But I can tell you that at non when you're not showing HDR video

00:27:05   You will never see like that's that does not manifest if I just told you all the backlights on 100% all the time

00:27:11   You would have to believe it because there's nothing you can see on the screen with your eyes without like an electric

00:27:16   Instrument to show the dynamic backlighting now if you put it in HDR mode and show a starfield

00:27:22   There are black background with a white square moving across it

00:27:25   Maybe then you can pick it up, but even then you know, it's it's hard to say but for regular like desktop computer mode

00:27:31   Which is the only way you're gonna use it because you're not doing HDR video. You can't see any bloom

00:27:35   You can't see any hell for in fact for all I know

00:27:37   When in this 500 inch mode the backlight is on 100% all the time. I don't even know

00:27:41   I just I can tell you that you don't see the hello

00:27:44   So I know that sounds gross to you and you could worry about the you know

00:27:48   Electronic sophistication that causes that to happen, but I'm gonna say in practice in regular 500 and it I'm using my thing as a Mac mode

00:27:54   It is a non-issue visually speaking. All right, that's that's good to know. I

00:27:58   So you've never noticed that ever no

00:28:01   I don't think I even even in the so when you see the thing where people do like when they do reviews of dynamic backlight

00:28:06   Television sets and they do them in HDR mode to show this exact effect. Like hey, it's a black background with some white text

00:28:12   I'm going to show you the haloing even when they do that for televisions which exhibit this much more

00:28:17   They have to adjust the exposure on the camera because with the naked eye is actually a little bit tricky to see

00:28:24   I don't you know, I I do very little HDR with this as well

00:28:28   I play destiny in HDR occasionally and I have some HDR videos that I watch but none of them really show off the haloing

00:28:33   But I'm absolutely sure I could see it if I give it the worst case scenario of a 100% white square moving across a black

00:28:39   screen in HDR

00:28:40   But in any other mode and I'm staring at my screen right now

00:28:43   Like there's black against white all over the place and I cannot see any bloom whatsoever. So yeah, it is

00:28:50   I don't like it either. I would never buy it in my television set

00:28:53   But I didn't worry about it for this monitor because it monitor levels. It just doesn't show up

00:28:58   All right. I that's that's good to know and that that will probably factor into whatever I decide to do

00:29:04   But I mean you and you'll find out when if these mini LED things come out like eventually you're just gonna get one no matter

00:29:10   What like but you won't have a choice right and then you'll see that it's like well for non HDR applications

00:29:16   Where nothing is really that bright. It's it's fine

00:29:18   Yeah, I hope so because I it's just it's so inelegant of a solution like it's just it's not yeah

00:29:23   Well, we don't have all we don't have OLED computer monitors yet

00:29:26   So that's that's really what you want is individually little pixels with also high contrast, right? Right? Yeah, exactly

00:29:31   Yeah, so anyway, so I've decided based on my these concerns and these in elegances for me

00:29:38   I'm not gonna get the XDR for now

00:29:40   I'm gonna stick with the stupid LG as long as it continues to work asterisk

00:29:44   But I just have to not use the LG's built-in ports and hope that it works

00:29:50   Well through this Cal digit thing that's on the way and if it doesn't then I'll reevaluate and I'm I'm not excited at all about the LG

00:29:57   For long-term use I'm intending it now to be just a bridge between now and either

00:30:04   when I decide to switch back to my iMac Pro

00:30:06   Which I might do whenever it comes back or if I decide not to switch back to it

00:30:10   If I if I get too hooked on the m1 lifestyle

00:30:12   Then this will just be a temporary thing until I figure out what my nest what my next desktop will be

00:30:18   and then we'll see what happens but if the LG like

00:30:22   If the LG breaks or if something like if something goes wrong with it that I haven't hit yet in the last few days that I've been

00:30:29   using it so far I

00:30:31   Would not replace it like I can't bring myself as much as I have a hard time spending seven thousand dollars

00:30:37   6k I could not bring myself to buy another one of these

00:30:41   Geez

00:30:43   So

00:30:44   It's it's here temporarily, but I don't anticipate this being a permanent solution

00:30:48   You know, I understand that you're trying to stay within a seven thousand dollar budget and I'm happy to tell you that on Craigslist

00:30:57   Here in Richmond, you can get a 2011 Chevrolet Cruze at CarMax here in Richmond. You can get a 2012 Fiat 500 pop

00:31:06   There are all sorts of automobile options that you can. Oh, actually here's a seven thousand dollar 2005 Jeep Grand Cherokee

00:31:12   I've always hit so far of all the cars you'd named but still rather have that monitor. Can you find a decent car? Yeah

00:31:16   All you can finally give you could finally get your dream car for six thousand nine hundred ninety five dollars in

00:31:25   1997 Jeep Wrangler. Oh great. I bet that sounds reliable and comfortable. Mm-hmm. Totally elegant - yeah

00:31:33   You could drive on the beach remember? Yeah. Yeah with the permit. I don't have that. I will never get

00:31:37   I

00:31:39   Hear it's a lot of money and but golly I

00:31:42   If that LG breaks, you should just get a 4k monitor and use it

00:31:46   Like you'll survive you'll survive with limited screen space for a while

00:31:48   I agree that in you know, truth be told I know that you don't particularly do the to monitor thing

00:31:54   But at my job job, I had to I think they were

00:31:58   LG if I remember correctly - LG 4k monitors that were like 22 inches something like that and

00:32:04   Truth be told like if you can get over the fact that you have two monitors on your desk

00:32:08   Which for me isn't a big deal. It actually was really really nice

00:32:11   they were both retina for all intents and purposes and you know when you have two of them you get a

00:32:16   Roughly equivalent amount of real estate as a 27 inch 5k certainly in a perfect world

00:32:21   I prefer a 27 inch 5k, but if you don't want to set

00:32:26   Dollars aflame you can do this for like 500 bucks or something like that now

00:32:30   I'm sure you'll hate them for some reason or another but I mean it's another option

00:32:33   Yeah

00:32:33   I mean

00:32:33   I mean the price difference is so vast like it is kind of funny to think that I could I could get like six of

00:32:38   these LG's for the

00:32:40   Know you six times as much maybe you could daisy chain all the USB things together to get enough power

00:32:47   That's funny

00:32:52   Alright, so one last piece of follow-up an anonymous Apple genius writes when taking a product into Apple to be serviced

00:32:57   Please just ask them to run in the full service diagnostic suite available to all Genius Bar technicians for this particular issue

00:33:04   We do have a cooling diagnostic that will assist with with determining the amount of spider eggs in the iMac Pro

00:33:09   The other two recommended diagnostics are FSD EFI and FSD OS

00:33:14   I'm assuming full service diagnostics for the EFI which is what does that actually stand for? It's the BIOS, right?

00:33:20   But what does it actually stand for?

00:33:22   It's something firmware interface enhanced firmware interface

00:33:27   I've forgotten right and then whatever the OS I presume that's like a software thing as we are technicians

00:33:32   We do rely on diagnostic tests to advise how we proceed and have troubleshooting guides made available by Apple engineering on personal note

00:33:39   I'm sorry for your previous experiences and that have caused you to audibly groan at the thought of having to come see us

00:33:44   but I can assure you there are a number of us who are fans and supporters of the tech media slash influencers in your audience and

00:33:51   This individual said they they bought the ATP T with wheels

00:33:54   Which means they are the right kind of person and this person additionally says

00:33:58   Suggest that we do find it discouraging that the geniuses do find it discouraging to hear those we admire thinks a little of us

00:34:04   First of all real-time follow-up somebody added I think John it's extensible firmware interface. So thank you for that John second

00:34:10   Well, I assumed your groaning was not about going to see an Apple genius necessarily

00:34:14   But just about the fact they have to carry this stupid 27 inch computer on a boat to an Apple store

00:34:19   But correct me if I'm wrong. Yeah, like for me like the reason why I don't like bringing in my my desktops for repair

00:34:25   Has almost nothing to do with the people I'm gonna be interacting with I've had almost entirely positive experiences there

00:34:31   it's it's all about just the logistics of getting it there and

00:34:34   then the inconvenience of being without it for all the time in the meantime and

00:34:39   then if I get it back and it's been you know wiped out because you know either because they

00:34:46   Restored it themselves or because they had to replace something that caused data loss like replacing the SSDs or their t2 or whatever

00:34:52   Which I think is gonna happen if they're replacing logic board

00:34:54   I assume then I assume that the t2 modules go with it and because of the encryption keys and everything

00:35:00   So I assume I'm gonna have an empty Mac on the way home

00:35:02   So that that's going to mean like not only did I have to bring it there which is an ordeal

00:35:07   Bring it home from there, which is an ordeal

00:35:09   but then also I'm without it for probably two weeks at least and

00:35:15   When I get it back, I have to restore from everything and deal with all the you know

00:35:19   Little tiny nitpicks and paper cuts that come along with having restored a computer

00:35:23   So you have to do it which takes a lot of time and then all the things that didn't have like that stored things in

00:35:29   Ways that don't that don't doesn't restore properly or like whatever all that I have to deal with for the next weeks after that

00:35:35   So it's just it's just a big ordeal

00:35:37   for my primary computer and

00:35:39   And I'm not looking forward to to doing all that and it's you know

00:35:44   it sucks like I depend on these computers and part of the reason why I

00:35:47   buy things like the Mac Pro and the iMac Pro is that they tend to be pretty reliable over time and

00:35:53   That decreases the chances that I need to do this

00:35:56   another another part of the reason why I don't keep computers for like five six years usually is

00:36:01   That I want to get rid of them before they need service

00:36:05   So I don't have to deal with this because this I'm running businesses here. I can't afford tons of downtime and

00:36:12   It's just it's very costly to to have to deal with all this crap

00:36:15   So I want to minimize the time that to deal with it

00:36:17   So it's nothing to do with the Apple people who are largely great

00:36:21   And everything to do with just the hassle of doing all this finally

00:36:25   I wanted to clarify a number of people have written in to tell me that they have some kind of you know business

00:36:31   service or Apple care service where they will send a technician to your house to pick up your desktop and take it away and service

00:36:37   it and bring it back to you and

00:36:39   while that sounds fantastic, maybe that only eliminates some of these problems and

00:36:45   I guarantee you they don't serve where I live

00:36:48   These places once once the steps to get here include get on a boat

00:36:53   I think that's where their service contract with Apple ends and I think that's that's when they say sorry. We can't serve your area

00:37:01   We are sponsored this week by flat file

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00:38:08   Thank you to flat file for sponsoring our show

00:38:10   Speaking of new toys in this case toys, you've actually bought tell me about your new fancy-pants headphones. Are they your favorites?

00:38:21   They're significantly better than I expected. Oh

00:38:26   Oh

00:38:26   Well, look at now you're gonna make me spend a whole pile of money

00:38:29   I don't want to spend so maybe I shouldn't ask you for details. Well, maybe not. So, alright, so here we are

00:38:34   I got my AirPods max. I've had him for about half a day and

00:38:38   So I can't give any useful information on

00:38:41   battery life or

00:38:44   Obviously travel or anything like that

00:38:46   But I can't tell you how they sound and I was comparing them all day listening to different music and comparing them to every pair of

00:38:54   Headphones I have in this house

00:38:56   and so I

00:38:58   Have a number of opinions on comfort and sound and control and things like that

00:39:02   So just a very quick

00:39:04   Terms, I'm gonna be using a lot in this. I assume everyone's familiar with the concepts of bass and treble

00:39:08   I'm also gonna be talking with a mid-range a lot

00:39:11   The mid-range is what's between bass and treble if you ever played with the mid-range control or the middle part of an EQ

00:39:17   You you know, it kind of boosts like vocals and the kind of like middle

00:39:22   range of the frequencies

00:39:25   You know, it's vocals electric guitars some instruments like pianos kind of like live in that range

00:39:30   So that's what I'm talking about here. And then finally I'm gonna be talking about the soundstage

00:39:35   Which is an audio term for like how wide it sounds like the music is coming from

00:39:42   Or like how big of a room it sounds like you're in. So anyway moving on to the actual information here

00:39:49   the first thing you notice besides the the comical packaging and case and oh

00:39:54   My god the case it it's as bad as you think it's as awkward and clumsy to get them in and out as you think

00:40:01   it

00:40:03   It would not surprise me if a number of the people who buy these who aren't nerds and don't follow their reviews

00:40:10   Mistake it for packaging and throw it away when they throw it with a box

00:40:13   It reminds me of the case on the original iPad. Do you remember that one?

00:40:16   They have like yeah, this pointy little seams and was made of that same cheap material. I had it. It was terrible

00:40:22   Remember they use leftover iPad one cases to make this case

00:40:25   Oh God

00:40:26   like the best the best thing I saw in one of the reviews is that

00:40:28   When it's in the case like they have a little notch cut out so you can see the lightning thing like through that little slot

00:40:34   The little slits that are at the bottom and explicable slits to allow scratches to get in

00:40:38   I don't know they made they made they didn't even line the slits up with the lightning thing

00:40:42   So they had to put a notch in the slit but the notch doesn't always line up exactly

00:40:46   With the lightning port that is supposed to be on it. Just you know

00:40:50   It's just shoddy all around just doesn't like ill-fitting like I was like an ill-fitting suit

00:40:55   Yeah, everything about the case is as bad as you think it might be. It's it's a shame. It really is because

00:41:01   It really puts a damper on this product in a pretty big way if it is indeed intended to be like

00:41:08   Traveled with in any capacity whether it's even even if it's just like, you know to and from work or something like it's just it's not

00:41:14   the case is

00:41:17   Hilariously awkward and bad. It's but it's ineffective as a case. It's

00:41:21   Annoying to get them in and out like it's it's not good. So anyway

00:41:25   You know, we talked a lot about the weight and everyone was kind of worried the weight

00:41:29   I actually don't think is that big of a problem for me in practice now granted

00:41:33   These are not my heaviest headphones like my big planners are like 500 grams

00:41:39   So so these at 350 or whatever is less than that

00:41:42   But they certainly are heavier than than most headphones that people be comparing them to things like the the common

00:41:49   noise cancelling headphones for planes

00:41:51   Most portable headphones for like portable music walking around and in fashionable ways and fashionable cities for fashionable people

00:41:58   They're they're generally heavier than those but I didn't really notice the way as being a problem

00:42:04   Comfort wise they do have a bit more

00:42:08   Clamping force like how hard they squeeze your head

00:42:12   Then I would like and part of that is just necessary because of the weight. I wish that was a little bit nicer

00:42:17   The ear cups themselves leave a lot of room for your ear like compared to other headphones in this category

00:42:25   So other, you know small fashionable portable over ears

00:42:28   Not compared to like giant, you know

00:42:30   The flagship headphones from the big brands that now have all these like nice kind of raindrop shaped ear cups compared to those

00:42:35   They're still small but compared to their category of like portable ish trendy looking headphones. They do have surprisingly deep and roomy ear cups

00:42:43   significantly nicer ear cups or at least more spacious ear cups than the

00:42:48   the Sony's and the Bose's that people will be comparing them to and that I will be in a minute the downside for the comfort for

00:42:53   Me is that the ear pads themselves are not super comfortable pads

00:42:59   now some of this ear pads do break in a little bit over time and

00:43:04   Headbands do kind of stretch and loosen a little bit over time

00:43:08   So this the comfort might improve over time

00:43:10   But I think the major theme is gonna say the same here

00:43:13   Which is that it's a little bit heavier and that therefore causes a bit more clamping force on your head and the ear pads are

00:43:18   Not that soft and they're not that they don't spread the weight over a very thick

00:43:23   Rim, if that makes sense

00:43:26   What makes super comfortable headphones super comfortable is like you can imagine the opposite you can imagine if like the ear pads

00:43:33   Formed little like triangle ridges that just ringed your ear with the thinnest thing possible

00:43:38   like a like a piece of cardboard that would like that would be uncomfortable because it would be

00:43:42   putting all the weight of them on a very tiny little circle around your ears and

00:43:46   Then the opposite would be like some like giant thick rim

00:43:50   You know looks like a fat tire kind of you know

00:43:52   That kind of pad that puts a huge surface area against your head so it spreads the weight out

00:43:57   The air pods max are too close to the former that they don't have a wide enough ear pad rim

00:44:03   To distribute the weight evenly and so it ends up being uncomfortable

00:44:07   Primarily because of that because of the ear pads themselves and the ear pad

00:44:13   Covering material, you know on most headphones. It's either real or fake leather some kind of you know vinyl or you know

00:44:19   Something like that

00:44:20   The ear pad covers here are this kind of almost rough fabric. That's almost itchy

00:44:26   It's not particularly comfortable and I would not I would never describe it as luxurious

00:44:32   So if what they're going for is luxury materials

00:44:35   I think they've achieved the look but not the feel like it does not feel

00:44:40   Luxurious at all and there are other competitors, you know bang and all of a sudden we mentioned earlier

00:44:45   And even the other noise cancelling with the Bose and Sony noise cancelling models have way nicer feeling ear pads

00:44:51   Than these and I think if Apple chooses to they could dramatically improve the comfort of the AirPods max

00:44:59   With just different ear pads and and they're they're replaceable

00:45:02   I do they're magnetic you pop them off in two seconds and put new ones on so they could actually

00:45:06   Replace like really revised ear pads for these down the road that could fit this

00:45:12   I don't know if they will

00:45:13   But they could and I think they should because that could dramatically improve comfort with a few design tweaks and maybe materials changes on the ear

00:45:19   pads

00:45:20   moving on to sound

00:45:22   The AirPods max is a headphone that is not afraid of treble

00:45:29   Now this is kind of a divide in the headphone world whether you want to hear treble response and treble detail

00:45:36   Or whether you don't whether you want it to be like, you know, quote rolled off treble sounds crisp and and and sharp

00:45:44   But it can be a little bit fatiguing for some people

00:45:46   The the rolled off reduced treble sound is very popular among high-end headphones because it sounds like warm

00:45:53   You know, it's a very, you know old radio voice warm here, but kind of not a lot of detail, you know

00:46:00   And the treble is like yeah right in your face, you know

00:46:02   so

00:46:04   This has kind of been a split in headphone tuning for a while

00:46:07   The max likes treble it gives you a lot of it

00:46:12   This is you know, if you're if you like bare dynamic headphones or hi-fi man headphones

00:46:17   This is for you. If you like the you know, Sennheiser or auto Z sound this is probably not for you

00:46:24   Fortunately, I'm in the trouble lovers group. I was gonna say I'm surprised you're you're going on about this because this sounds like it's made for

00:46:32   You then? Yeah, it's for me. It's great for almost any other headphone in this category

00:46:36   This is gonna sound like too much trouble

00:46:38   But if you've heard if you've heard headphones with good well done treble response like my beloved hd6

00:46:45   It sounds you know, right in line

00:46:47   It's also it's closer in line to what you get from like quote fun headphones

00:46:53   I'll get to it in a minute because what that involves basically is a sound that is not

00:47:00   Trying to be completely flat frequency response

00:47:03   But it's aiming for something that is just a little bit more pleasing

00:47:05   Imagine if you had a bass and treble dial imagine if you turned up the bass and the treble each a little bit

00:47:10   Not too much

00:47:11   but just give give them give the bass and the treble a bit of a boost from neutral and

00:47:15   It makes it a little bit more live a little bit a little bit more fun sounding to most people

00:47:19   That is what headphone people call a v-shaped sound signature

00:47:22   Because like if you imagine on the EQ like the the left is the bass and the right is the treble and they're boosted

00:47:28   But the middle is not so it forms like a little bit V with the with the controls

00:47:31   These have that but it's not like super aggressive about it. It's not

00:47:37   Really in your face about how much treble and bass it is boosting

00:47:41   You know, usually that kind of toning of a headphone means

00:47:46   The bass especially is usually really overpowering and that the mid-range is so

00:47:53   Withdrawn by comparison that the vocals are kind of hard to hear over all the bass like, you know

00:47:59   The vocals are almost withdrawn into the background

00:48:01   Electric guitars are often, you know falling into the background because the bass is pushed so high

00:48:07   The max does not have that problem

00:48:09   It is it is a little bit v-shaped a little bit fun a little bit boosting and treble and bass

00:48:14   But it's much closer to neutral than we usually get with that kind of boost and the mid-range does not feel

00:48:21   buried or overpowered or withdrawn so mid-range is

00:48:24   I'm a mid-range snob and

00:48:27   What converted me to a mid-range snob was planar headphones and you know the way headphones work

00:48:33   They have to move air somehow and very quickly. I don't waste too much time on this very quickly

00:48:38   They can move air by having this cone with a magnet that drives that forward and back which is how almost all headphones work

00:48:45   Those are called dynamic headphones speakers usually almost all work that way as well. You've seen these speaker shaped cones

00:48:49   It's in the volume icon. It's everywhere a different way that some high-end headphones work is called planar magnetic or

00:48:56   Orthodynamic it's same thing and what they do is suspend a very very thin

00:49:02   Diagram with some conductive trace on it between two

00:49:06   Grids of magnets and by running current through the trace on the diaphragm

00:49:11   it induces motion with those magnets and and that's how they move and what that results in is

00:49:18   Less mass of the thing that's moving

00:49:20   than the typical like cone dynamic driver that you see in most speakers and headphones and

00:49:25   What that does when you have less mass moving it allows it to have usually not always

00:49:31   Usually not only better bass response for reasons physics and stuff and such but also a more smooth frequency response

00:49:38   It doesn't have as many like weird peaks and valleys usually

00:49:41   As dynamics just because again like the physics when you when you're moving less it's easier to better control how it moves

00:49:48   What this results in in practice for me when I've tried most these kinds of kinds of headphones planar magnetic headphones

00:49:55   Usually have much smoother mid-range and what I mean by smooth

00:50:01   It's kind of hard to explain but you would know it if you heard it

00:50:04   when you hear bad mid-range, it almost sounds like the vocals are

00:50:10   Crunchy or like distorted in like a like a crunchy or kind of harsh way on your ears

00:50:16   That's a very very common flaw in cheap dynamic headphones

00:50:20   and that's one of the reasons why so many of them are tuned to boost the everything else and

00:50:26   Withdraw the mid-range because they can't reproduce it well, and so they kind of bury that in bass and hope you don't notice I

00:50:33   Notice and I care and the mid-range is my favorite part because that's where all the guitars and vocals are and I'm a guitars and

00:50:40   vocals person so I want that to be awesome and smooth and it's very unusual for

00:50:45   A dynamic headphone as opposed to the planar to achieve a smooth mid-range

00:50:51   You love vocals you listen to fish and guitars. I said that's where all right

00:50:56   All right, I feel like the lead singer of fish is Trey's guitar and that is solid mid-range music

00:51:04   right, so like I care a lot about how electric guitars sound and

00:51:09   Yeah, because of that

00:51:11   here's the thing like it's funny say that John because I

00:51:14   I don't want to make it sound like I think any of Marco's opinions are wrong

00:51:19   but it is important listener that you understand that Marco has a very particular kind of music and his

00:51:25   preferences match with that kind of music as your friends has matched with your kinds of music and and

00:51:29   I'm not saying that's bad or wrong or

00:51:31   Indifferent or otherwise it's just I think when you said it was planar headphones that got you to love the mid-range and trouble

00:51:38   Oh, no, sir. It's fish that got you to love that. It's just a planar headphones match it

00:51:42   Well, and so for me like for example, and I don't have AirPods max. I haven't listened to them yet. I

00:51:47   Tend to like when I listen to music I tend to be drawn to music that had I think we've talked about this like a

00:51:53   Year or two ago

00:51:54   I tend to be drawn to music that has a stronger like bass or rhythm section and drums than I am

00:52:00   Wowed by you know, really strong guitars. It's not always true, but often true

00:52:04   And so for me the kind of boominess that Marco would not care for of course everything is limits

00:52:10   But I I think I would be more receptive to it because I tend to focus on that

00:52:13   Part of a band more than Marco does and so none of this again Marco's not wrong by any stretch of the imagination

00:52:18   It's just if you're making a decision about whether to spend money on what is the $600 headphones?

00:52:23   Just consider that Marco's opinions are based on the someone who to his own admission really likes a particular kind of music and and

00:52:30   And if you'd like a different kind of music take that into consideration

00:52:34   Right and and I try to test with a lot of different tracks like one of the like, you know

00:52:38   If assuming you don't listen to fish

00:52:40   Although they sell at stadiums somehow. But anyway

00:52:44   You're all out there somewhere

00:52:47   No one wants to know what's we minutes anyway, but like, you know, so like one of the bands I test with

00:52:52   For all iPhones I test is the Avid Brothers because not only are they one of my favorite bands

00:52:58   But also Avid Brothers their earlier stuff before they had like really fancy expensive producers

00:53:05   The earlier stuff is a little bit more rough

00:53:08   and and I think in my opinion better for that like it that gives it a level of like a

00:53:15   personality and realness that that I feel like it's sanded off a lot as they

00:53:20   increased their production levels and later albums, but their earlier stuff like

00:53:25   Their their voices are almost harsh and there they go right up to that edge

00:53:31   But they don't cross it if you're listening on good equipment and it sounds incredible to hear someone's voice

00:53:38   That's almost too harsh. But then just it's it's it walks right up to it and it just doesn't cross that line

00:53:44   It's an amazing energy to hear

00:53:46   There like the early Avid Brothers records are murder on bad headphones

00:53:51   Because they will reveal every flaw in mid-range reproduction at that a headphone can offer

00:53:57   It's one of the reasons I use them as test tracks because not only do I like them

00:54:00   But like it's very clear when you have bad mid-range reproduction the AirPods Max

00:54:06   Do not achieve the level of smoothness of good planar headphones

00:54:11   But they get damn close and that is incredibly impressive

00:54:17   They're not the only

00:54:19   Dynamic headphone to get that close, but they're one of very very few that alone is

00:54:26   worthy of praise like that that is it's very very good at

00:54:31   Not having that kind of crunchy sound not having any kind of weird

00:54:35   distortion that I can identify in any obvious place like across the frequencies

00:54:39   It's just a nice smooth

00:54:42   pleasant sound that is a little bit aggressive in the bass and treble to make it sound a little bit more fun and

00:54:48   Honestly, that's probably not like a flaw. That's probably by design. That's what most people want

00:54:53   I'm very happy about the sound of these I spent a lot of time with open backed headphones because open back headphones

00:54:59   They leak sound like crazy in and out and so they're unsuitable whenever you're near anybody or any noise sources

00:55:05   But they usually sound way better

00:55:08   It's hard for closed headphones to sound good to somebody

00:55:13   Once they're accustomed to open headphones because they just had so much better

00:55:17   But there again there are a few models of closed headphones that I've ever tried that are that are really good sounding in absolute terms

00:55:23   It's not just like reading on the closed headphone curve and the AirPods max are one of those they are

00:55:28   One of the best closed back headphones I've ever heard possibly even the best and they're one of the best

00:55:35   Dynamic headphones I've ever heard again possibly even the best so sound quality. I am extremely happy with them

00:55:42   They don't beat my my favorite, you know

00:55:44   My hd6 but they really they beat almost everything else I have in sound quality

00:55:50   Can you list those headphones by the way all the headphones that you tested against? I'll get there in one moment

00:55:55   I do before I before I do direct comparisons. I want to talk about control

00:56:00   The digital crown we were talking about last week

00:56:03   I speculated that it was the same part as the watch John and I believe you said it was it must have been much bigger

00:56:07   You were right. It is much bigger than the watch's digital crown

00:56:10   that being said

00:56:13   Because of like where it is, you know and the fact that you're not looking at it as you're operating it

00:56:18   It actually feels a little too small still and it feels a little bit fiddly as a volume control and it's not actually

00:56:26   great as

00:56:27   The like primary button which is like track skipping or play/pause

00:56:31   it's not great for that either because because it's a digital crown there's a lot of travel to push it in and

00:56:37   Way more travel than like the regular button that's next to it to control the noise cancellation modes

00:56:42   And it's actually because again because the digital crown it's a little bit difficult to click it in without accidentally

00:56:48   changing the volume slightly

00:56:51   so I think I actually another button would have served this role better and

00:56:55   If they're gonna only have a digital crown and one button

00:56:59   I would argue they should flip the roles of them that pushing in the digital crown should be the noise cancellation toggle and

00:57:06   The much easier to press much easier to double and triple click button

00:57:11   That's right next to it should be the play/pause and skip and everything

00:57:14   Otherwise we covered earlier, you know, the ANC has the same, you know, three modes the transparency

00:57:20   You know ANC and off modes as the AirPods Pro they work very similarly

00:57:25   Automatic head detection

00:57:28   Which is basically what activates the AirPods Max

00:57:32   Automatically when you put it on your head and it makes it take over the current audio playback route

00:57:36   That works fine. It's also an option that you can turn off

00:57:41   One thing that I don't think you can turn off yet that I that I hope they add the ability to turn off is

00:57:46   The automatic pausing when you take it off your ear for whatever reason like, you know AirPods Pro

00:57:51   It makes more sense. You're like taking it out of your ear that kind of makes more sense

00:57:54   but on this

00:57:56   sometimes I like

00:57:57   gotta like put my finger under the ear cups slightly to maybe itch my ear or something during a long recording and

00:58:02   If you do that with these at the audio pauses

00:58:05   Like if it's away from your ear at all even just like to you know, move a finger or maybe adjust your glasses or whatever

00:58:11   Like it'll pause and that's that's kind of annoying

00:58:13   So I hope that becomes an option down the road

00:58:15   One of the good things about these headphones

00:58:17   speaking of all these things you're talking about the buttons and all the different things that they perform is that I my assumption is that

00:58:22   all the buttons are essentially

00:58:24   programmable and in that if they change their mind about what the buttons want to do or even something as dramatic as you just said

00:58:29   I'll let's switch the the noise cancelling versus the crown button to do opposite functions that they could in theory do that because it's all software

00:58:36   Controlled right? Yeah as far as I know

00:58:38   And that leads me to a question that came up

00:58:40   Actually, we should have talked about a follow but we missed it and I'm not sure you know the answer to this

00:58:45   Maybe I fix it can know is

00:58:48   Is there any electrical connection between the ear cups?

00:58:54   Like is there a wire essentially going from the left ear cup to the right ear cup or are they essentially two completely?

00:59:00   independent little computers because there are two little h1 chips in there that like on your air pods where there's no wire between them they just

00:59:07   Communicate with each other and coordinate to be a pair of headphones together for you or is there actually a wire connection between them?

00:59:13   Well, they have to be powered. So there has to be at least a power cable between the two

00:59:17   Maybe there's a battery in each one. Sure, but there's only one charging port

00:59:23   There is a power cable between them at least and I would I would guess like there there is probably a wired

00:59:29   audio

00:59:31   coordination signal between them as well because otherwise actually there were almost certainly have to be because as I'm about to get to the

00:59:37   wired mode is

00:59:39   Indeed zero latency and so and it would be nearly impossible to do that

00:59:44   Like wireless is sending it across your head without introducing any latency anywhere that that would be that would be very difficult if not impossible

00:59:50   so

00:59:51   At least doing it in the digital domain. So that's that would be very unlikely

00:59:54   So yeah, it's it's almost certainly that they are wired together just you know through one of the sides of the headband

00:59:59   But anyway wired mode speaking of which yeah works great. Are you using them right now? Yeah, are you using it now?

01:00:06   No, because the comfort is just not good enough for me for long late or long listening like

01:00:11   But I could and that's the important thing if I was on a trip or something and I wanted to just bring you know

01:00:17   A small well a well traveling pair of headphones. Maybe this maybe these aren't the right ones because of their stupid case

01:00:24   But yeah, I could bring these if I wanted to and I could use the cable for that the cable like the the little you know

01:00:31   the $35 backwards wire is

01:00:34   Kind of comical that it cost $35 talk about luxury

01:00:39   This is the thinnest crappiest feeling cable that I think I've ever seen Apple sell

01:00:44   It's so bad that had I not ordered it directly from Apple. I would assume it was counterfeit. Oh

01:00:49   So because I'm pretty sure like I'm guessing that you know that this is only analog audio

01:00:56   So it's only three conductors. It doesn't even have it isn't even the TR RS with the remote pin

01:01:02   It's only TRS like the regular old three pin or three conductor cable without the remote control

01:01:08   So like it's it's just you know

01:01:10   Those three wires in there and it is that it is such a thin crappy feeling cable. It's also very short

01:01:15   It's only one meter and so at a desk, it's too short

01:01:18   It you know

01:01:19   If you're like plugging into a laptop on on a trip or something

01:01:22   It's probably fine for that or if you're plugging it into something in your pocket for some reason

01:01:26   Somehow if you still have anything in your pocket with a headphone jack

01:01:28   Then it would be fine for that as well

01:01:30   But it is too short for desks or plugging into a microphone directly if you're yes for podcast monitoring. Yes, exactly

01:01:37   The cable does not have a microphone or remote on it. You have to use those things built in built into the headphones

01:01:43   It's also weird too that when you're using the cable mode the headphones still have an independent volume control on them

01:01:49   So they don't just run at you know line volume level of whatever you plug it into they

01:01:54   Have their own volume control that you have to turn up and down

01:01:56   Separately from the device you're pulling it into if you want to which confused me at first

01:02:01   I thought they were broken because it was just super quiet and it took me a while to figure out

01:02:05   Oh, I should turn up their volume as well

01:02:07   but anyway, so comparing it to other headphones and

01:02:13   Just a quick thing. This is a very important thing to do when you're comparing audio quality or even comfort because

01:02:21   It is so hard to remember how something sounds our brains play tricks on us

01:02:28   Our memory is not that good

01:02:30   And the only way to really compare headphones is to compare them like side by side

01:02:36   Immediately like try this now quickly switch try this and quickly switch back and try that try to listen to the same thing same segment

01:02:42   of the song on both like

01:02:43   It's it trying to turn use any other way trying to like do any kind of testing by memory or by comparing frequency response graphs

01:02:49   Like it doesn't really work. Our brains are not good at that. You have to do it this way

01:02:53   And this is what I did

01:02:54   So this is why I'm only gonna compare it to headphones that I actually had with me and tested today. Also people talk about

01:03:00   Break-in or breaking in speakers and headphones and this concept that they sound better over time as they break in

01:03:07   This has been disproven

01:03:09   There's no science to back this up by anybody ever

01:03:11   The headphones aren't breaking in your brain is breaking and your brain is getting accustomed to their sound profile

01:03:15   So anything you get after listening to it for a while your brain is accustomed to it

01:03:19   It might be doing a bit of correction and you know, it'll sound good to you. So that's fine. So anyway

01:03:26   And also note as I compared this to the Sony noise cancelling headphones that the current Sony model is the WH 1000 XM4

01:03:34   I don't have the XM4 have the XM2 two versions back

01:03:37   It is very similar in most ways

01:03:40   the main things they've changed between the two and the four are they switch to USB C and

01:03:45   They've changed some of the smart features and some of the available audio processing features

01:03:50   But there's not much else that's different between them as far as I can find as far as I can tell

01:03:54   anyway, so

01:03:56   first

01:03:57   Comparing them to full-sized wired headphones, which is not a fair comparison in many ways

01:04:02   But you know my my beloved hi-fi man hd6 my big flagship my favorite headphone of all time

01:04:08   It has its open backed

01:04:11   You know, it's it's not this is not a fair fight at all that you know

01:04:14   The hd6 is first of all discontinued many many years ago

01:04:18   Cost twice as much wired open backed requires ridiculous amps to supply enough power to it

01:04:25   but

01:04:26   You know, it does the hd6 does sound better

01:04:29   But not as much better as I would have thought for all those all those trade-offs the hd6

01:04:35   Did you try the AirPods max with a wire for the audio as to try to compete to remove the Bluetooth factor?

01:04:42   I tried it both ways. I did some of the testing with the wire and some without honestly

01:04:46   I could not tell a difference

01:04:48   Bluetooth as a codec and as a thing like audio files argue about this all the time about what it does to their sound quality

01:04:54   The reality is it's complicated. There's been multiple Bluetooth codecs over time multiple codecs that different devices support

01:05:01   The if you're using like the old a2dp codec

01:05:05   It does indeed sound kind of crappy with with good enough headphones like you can you can hear the difference

01:05:10   But no modern headphone communicates that way the the Android and Sony

01:05:16   Camps for a while use something called aptX which was like a higher-end codec Apple has always used AAC

01:05:23   So they're simply as far as I can tell they're still doing this simply encoding on AAC on the device

01:05:28   Sending it over the air as AAC and then decoding in the in the headphone. They've done that for a long time now

01:05:33   Whatever they're doing is at a high enough bitrate that it's pretty transparent. I cannot tell a difference

01:05:38   anyway, I

01:05:40   Compared it to my current closed headphone favorite the one I'm using right now the Dan Clark audio eon 2 closed

01:05:45   Eon 2 is way more comfortable. It's just it's a it's a huge headphone

01:05:50   It's one of those teardrop shaped ear cup things a massive headphone huge comfortable pads

01:05:55   But it's also the eon 2 is tuned for one of those warm sound signatures with with relatively weak treble response

01:06:03   I actually I actually thought the sound from the max is more fun because it has that increased treble

01:06:10   But eon 2 is a little bit smoother has you know more refinement range and everything

01:06:14   but anyway moving down the price range a little bit the

01:06:17   Wonderful venerable headphones that I think case is probably wearing right now the bear dynamic DT 770 Pro

01:06:22   Mm-hmm the way they sound the tonal balance, you know treble bass everything that it's actually very similar to their pods max

01:06:30   The DT 770 has a you know, v-shaped

01:06:33   EQ curve kind of boost trouble and bass a little bit

01:06:36   but the 770s bass is a bit weaker the treble is a bit stronger and the mid-range is

01:06:43   very slightly more crunchy on the 770s, so

01:06:47   overall a surprisingly similar sound

01:06:49   Of all the headphones I tried it against the DT 770 sounds the most similar to the max

01:06:56   But the max sounds like a slightly better a bit smoother and a bit more refined

01:07:01   I mean a bit better balanced version of the DT 770 so that it actually sounds significantly, you know

01:07:07   it sounds better but like if you if you you have to like try them back to back to really even notice

01:07:14   Most of the difference so it's basically a wireless DT 770 and I consider that a very good thing like three times the price, right?

01:07:21   Yeah

01:07:23   But you know, it's wireless it has noise cancellation. Like I wouldn't want to travel with my 770s

01:07:27   I have but it's not fun because they're so big and bulky but certainly like for for you know at a desk

01:07:33   You know the 770s put up a pretty good fight

01:07:35   Now compared to the AirPods Pro the AirPods max have a worse transparency mode

01:07:42   and I don't know if this is just the physics of you know, having these cups that sit over your ears that don't quite maybe seal as as

01:07:49   uniformly or as evenly as

01:07:52   The AirPods Pro which is which are going partially in your ears

01:07:55   and the AirPods Pro benefit from like having your ear itself as

01:08:00   Part of the thing that is that is adjusting the noise on the way in like the shape of your ear

01:08:04   Actually changes sound on the way in and so over ear headphones where their microphones are outside of your ear

01:08:11   Don't have the benefit of knowing how your ear is going to shape the sound on the way in

01:08:16   Whereas the AirPods Pro the microphones are like partially in your ear

01:08:21   And so they are getting some of that ear processing that your ear is doing on the sound

01:08:25   They're getting some of that on the way into their microphone. So they're able to have I think a better transparency mode as a result

01:08:32   Transparency on the max honestly is not very good

01:08:36   Everybody everybody loves it all the reviews of saying wow transparency mode is amazing

01:08:40   I'm hearing these are some people who have used the AirPod Pros, right?

01:08:44   So it's not like people who have never been in the Apple you with them and haven't tried the other Apple product

01:08:48   So that's a little bit surprising

01:08:50   But you know what makes me think that what Apple needs here is

01:08:52   To talk to the Sony folks because what you want is your own personal head related transfer function

01:08:58   Yes, so that knows the shape of your ear is that because the AirPod max doesn't know the shape of you like

01:09:03   You know exactly like the actual sound landing on your head is hitting giant aluminum cups with pinholes

01:09:10   And I'm right it is not it is not bouncing around in your ear

01:09:13   And so Apple probably has some sort of best guess standardized head related transfer function to try to make transparency sound

01:09:21   More or less normal, but the AirPods Pro have your literal actual ear there. Yeah, and and to be clear like the AirPods Pro

01:09:27   Transparency mode totally destroys the Bose's and the Sony's it's not even close

01:09:33   But the AirPods Pro is a little bit better like the transparency on the max. I was able to

01:09:40   Notice it sometimes whereas I use it all the time on the Pro

01:09:44   And I I almost can never like notice artifacts of it whereas on the max. They're they're actually pretty clear

01:09:51   Like you you can't forget that you're using transparency mode on the max whereas in the Pro you can

01:09:57   That's how good the Pro is and the max is close, but it's not quite there

01:10:01   Also compared to the Pro the max just sounds way better. You know it's much larger soundstage

01:10:08   stronger bass

01:10:09   much smoother mid-range

01:10:11   The AirPods Pro sound very good for what they are but in this case physics wins and and the max sounds way way better

01:10:18   But that's to be expected. I sure hope so for that for the price difference

01:10:21   moving on to

01:10:23   One of the most commonly recommended alternatives the Bose 700. This is the this is Bose's current flagship

01:10:30   noise cancelling headphone

01:10:33   Very similar overall size. It's a very similar bad folding where they only fold down. They don't fold in

01:10:39   But Bose has like a normal case and that is far more useful. You're gonna like throw it in travel bag or something

01:10:45   Bose also has

01:10:47   significantly better comfort

01:10:49   Overall out of all these headphones. I've tried the Bose is my favorite for comfort

01:10:54   Just barely edging out the Sony's the Sony's are also excellent, but the Bose has a bit of an edge for me

01:11:00   Bose has

01:11:02   Noise cancellation that I think is a little bit stronger

01:11:04   You can also adjust how much it is from zero to ten like it's it's very adjustable

01:11:09   It's very nice on the Bose

01:11:11   It has useful voice prompts like when you connect the device the Bose says connect to two Marco's iPhone

01:11:17   Sony's actually have a similar feature

01:11:20   It tells you like noise cancelling 10 noise cancelling 5 it'll tell you battery

01:11:25   57% like it announces that all in the ear cups, which is just a nice feature and

01:11:31   Apple has the tech to do that

01:11:33   Obviously they choose not to they choose to just like play tones instead and have you look at your phone for all this info

01:11:38   I wish Apple would go a little bit more in this direction

01:11:41   That's a very useful feature in practice when you're actually using these actually traveling the way that would manifest is is you'd hear this voice

01:11:48   Just a moment

01:11:50   Moment I'm working on it. I'm sorry. I couldn't connect your device

01:11:54   The main voice I hear in my house when Apple speaks to me with a voice yeah

01:12:01   so

01:12:03   Unfortunately, my Bose love fest ends when it comes to talking about the sound Bose has the worst sound in the group by a mile

01:12:10   It's not even close talking about like a crunchy mid-range

01:12:15   Bose is the worst. I'm pretty sure Bose's audio engineers don't listen to any music with vocals

01:12:21   I don't know how they would possibly think that that sounds okay. It's terrible mid-range is the worst treble response is

01:12:28   Significantly weaker than everything else yeah by far the worst sound in the group

01:12:32   But that being said on planes that isn't actually that big of a problem anyway

01:12:37   Compared to the Sony's WH 1000 XM2 is the one I have very similar to the three and four

01:12:44   And the MDR 1000 X which is the one

01:12:46   Sony has by far the best folding the best travel case

01:12:51   They have excellent comfort the ear cups are a little small

01:12:56   They could be a little roomier, but overall excellent comfort Sony has my favorite ear pads

01:13:00   Like just like how how like soft and pliable and how much they spread the weight. They just are awesome the Sony's

01:13:07   Today like before I at least before I got my AirPods Pro the Sony's were my headphones of choice while traveling

01:13:13   You know I wouldn't use them in normal circumstances, but like on planes

01:13:17   I would I would go for those instantly Sony has a much bass heavier sound

01:13:22   It's kind of it's a little bit too boomy on the bass a little more crunchiness in the mid-range and a little weak on the treble

01:13:28   response

01:13:29   compared to the AirPods max

01:13:31   But way better sound than the Bose like the Bose you play it

01:13:35   And you just are sad like you can't believe like man

01:13:39   I'm I'm really doing Neil Young a disservice here playing his music through this right now. Where's the Sony would know?

01:13:45   So God I forgot with that

01:13:48   Whereas the Sony's are like okay? Yeah, I think I think Neil would be mildly okay with this whereas yeah the Bose

01:13:55   You're just like you're you're sad. He's sad everyone's sad

01:13:57   The Sony has a pretty rough transparency mode

01:14:01   This is like a constant hiss that you hear and it sounds like it sounds like you're listening to the world through intercom

01:14:07   But otherwise Sony is is

01:14:11   Very good overall a great all-arounder. I think if you need noise cancelling headphones

01:14:17   and you don't want to spend the

01:14:19   AirPods max premium, and you don't want AirPods Pro to serve that role just get the Sony's

01:14:25   There's a reason everyone recommends them. They they really are like great all-arounders

01:14:29   They're not amazing at any one thing except for the the folding and everything

01:14:34   They're like that they're super amazing, but they are really good at everything

01:14:38   How is the noise cancelling on the apples?

01:14:41   I've heard a lot of people say that

01:14:42   People who find the noise cancellation on Bose and Sony's a little bit oppressive or they could it feels like there's pressure in your ear

01:14:48   That somehow the Apple ones were less pressure though

01:14:51   Obviously if the Bose one has an adjustable just adjustability for the noise cancelling maybe you can dial that down

01:14:56   But how did you feel the noise cancelling was in terms of ability to cancel noise?

01:14:59   And if you're one of those people who feels that sort of pressure effect

01:15:02   It's hard. Yeah, so I am one of those people who has historically not liked noise cancellation that much

01:15:09   That was like with some of the older ones like the quiet comfort 35 - and stuff like that

01:15:13   I didn't like those as much

01:15:15   Ever since the era of the Sony, you know 1000 series

01:15:19   I've liked it when I'm on planes and

01:15:22   And similar AirPods Pro I have found to be fantastic for noise cancellation because like it's not too much

01:15:30   It doesn't feel or sound unnatural to me same thing with the Sony the Bose. I don't keep it level 10

01:15:36   I keep it at level 5 and that's I found that to be okay when I used it

01:15:39   The AirPods max seem overall with noise cancellation. They they you know, this is hard to test because I'm not flying anywhere right now

01:15:48   So it's hard to test but I tested it like, you know tip was vacuuming in the other room

01:15:51   and so I kept switching between all these headphones like the vacuums going and I like played a podcast out of a speaker also nearby to

01:15:58   Kind of see how it how would you know compared to that and and overall?

01:16:02   It's very similar sounding in noise cancellation to the AirPods Pro. I

01:16:06   expect it to be much stronger and

01:16:10   I think it's a little stronger, but it's not a it's not a massive difference

01:16:14   But as for like the the unnatural feeling in my again limited testing so far it seemed fine

01:16:21   I think if you're okay with the way the AirPods Pro do it, you'll be okay with the way these do it

01:16:25   Finally, what would I use this for?

01:16:29   like well like what wins these battles and

01:16:32   you know compared to like what would I use it a desk I

01:16:36   Really? Enjoy listening to music on the max at a desk and and if I walked around listening to music

01:16:43   Which I don't I walk around listen to podcasts, but if I wasn't listening to music, you know, maybe but at a desk

01:16:47   It was fantastic. I love the Bluetooth integration if I was going for like a more

01:16:51   minimal setup to like get rid of my

01:16:53   desktop headphone amp and get rid of the wire and just have wireless headphones that I listen to like or if I if I like

01:16:59   Was going to an office and I wanted something for the office that and I didn't want like a big setup there

01:17:04   Then maybe the problem for me though is that they don't offer all-day comfort

01:17:09   When I'm listening to them and they feel great, but every time I would listen for a while and then take it off

01:17:14   It would be kind of a relief that it was off my head and that's not good. It's the comfort is not good enough

01:17:23   Ideally if you're gonna have headphones at a desk, you're probably gonna be there a while and

01:17:29   If in that case you probably want something that has better long-term comfort, you know

01:17:33   Like like the DT 770 or the eon 2 or if you want to go wireless probably the Sony's

01:17:38   For that use and I think there's a reason why so many tech people probably many of you listening to this right now

01:17:45   use the Sony headphones all day at work when you know when that's a thing because

01:17:50   There's just they're comfortable if you need noise cancellation all day at work

01:17:55   Which I've never been a fan of using it that often but many people do the Sony's are probably the way we would go for

01:18:00   That as well because again, they just they are better for long wearing comfort if the AirPods Max had better

01:18:06   Earpads and and a little bit better maybe a little bit lighter weight a little better ear pads

01:18:11   They could take over that market but the comfort is just not there

01:18:15   wasn't one of the rumors about the AirPods Max is that the production of it was delayed a little bit because

01:18:22   They were the the headband was a little bit too tight and they needed to loosen it up as a manufacturing sort of adjustment

01:18:28   Yeah, we heard that

01:18:30   I mean, I don't know and it's hard to know whether any of that any of those rumors hold any water

01:18:32   But I mean, but I think we heard that before anyone had warned them

01:18:35   So it doesn't seem like that it is a rumor is a reaction to people trying them and thinking they're a little uncomfortable

01:18:40   It was like before anyone had even touched them. That was a rumor. So it makes me wonder if there was

01:18:44   Some sort of comfort adjustment stuff going on what I really like to hear is the explanation of the case

01:18:49   Like how did we get that?

01:18:50   What happened there?

01:18:52   Yeah, so so at a desk

01:18:54   They're they're a good option for sound quality and for the integration with the OS and everything

01:18:58   I just wish they were more comfortable for a long wearing

01:19:01   While I'm walking around I'm gonna pick AirPods Pro every time they're they're pocketable

01:19:07   They're less conspicuous if that matters to you

01:19:10   Like I even even like for the conspicuous angle

01:19:13   I wouldn't even I don't think I'd even want to wear the max is like on a zoom call or something because I would it would

01:19:17   Just feel conspicuous to me AirPods Pro also for walking having the better transparency mode matters to me

01:19:23   I'm always using transparency with them while walking and the pro are also, you know less sweaty in the summer

01:19:28   They fit under hats in the winter. It's it's wonderful

01:19:32   The AirPods Pro are great for walking and I don't think the max is gonna change that for almost anybody

01:19:36   On a plane

01:19:39   What would I use? Guess what? I'd use the AirPods Pro still because sound quality matters far less

01:19:46   on planes than

01:19:48   comfort and like travel practicality travel logistics

01:19:53   so the max having this amazing sound quality that doesn't matter so much on a plane and

01:19:58   All the maxes big disadvantages like the long wearing comfort the terrible case. Those are the highest priorities on planes

01:20:05   so I

01:20:07   Feel like the the case situation and the comfort situation on the max really cost it that market pretty big time

01:20:13   And so I would not pick it on a plane. I would continue bringing my two pairs of AirPods Pro

01:20:18   Sounds like you would not use these things in a box. You would not use them with the

01:20:22   Here there you would not use them anywhere. Does that mean getting a pair of blue headphones?

01:20:27   I don't know. I don't know if she likes them yet. We didn't have time for her to tell some today yet, but

01:20:31   It's just it's a shame

01:20:33   I really want so badly to like these because I love the way they sound I really very much enjoy their sound

01:20:40   But I have a hard time thinking when I'm going to use them, you know

01:20:44   So I as for like whether I'm keeping it or returning it or I the answer is I don't know yet

01:20:50   I wish they were more comfortable and I'm gonna try wearing them a little bit more

01:20:54   You know, we're in the holiday extended return period now

01:20:56   I think I can return them up till January 15th or something

01:20:59   I'm gonna wear them a lot over Christmas and and just kind of see like, you know

01:21:02   Does it break in do the ear pads get a little bit softer?

01:21:05   Does the headband loosen up a little bit to matter? I don't know but

01:21:08   Ultimately, I I hope I can make these work as I do love the way they sound

01:21:13   But the comfort has me concerned enough that I think I don't I wouldn't give it a high chance

01:21:18   So let me take a different approach at this

01:21:21   Who should be buying these like what do you think the air pods max are best suited for? Well, ultimately, I think

01:21:29   Try them and if they're comfortable on you great like, you know headphone comfort varies because people are different

01:21:36   We have different shaped heads. We have different shaped ears. We have different preferences. We have like it

01:21:41   Some people are gonna probably find them comfortable enough. Some people aren't comfort is going to be the biggest

01:21:47   Limiting factor once you get past the massive price a terrible case

01:21:52   But like again, they sound great and they function pretty well in most ways. I

01:21:58   I wish I could wear them more often. But but ultimately the comfort is is a pretty big problem for me, but I

01:22:06   Again, I'm just one person they might be comfortable on you

01:22:09   I don't know

01:22:09   so all I can say is

01:22:11   Go into it with you know with that

01:22:14   Potential warning in mind that the comfort might not work for you or it might and see if it works for you

01:22:18   And if it works for you good, you know more power to you. It sounds like the target market is someone who values audio quality

01:22:25   So all right away you're willing to spend more money, even though these are only you know

01:22:28   marginally better sounding than say the DT 770s, right and

01:22:32   Maybe doesn't like things in your ears, which I don't like so that that rules out the the air pods Pro, right?

01:22:38   And so that's you know, like if you if you're in that realm and you're like, well, I'm not super bargain-conscious

01:22:45   I don't like things in my ears

01:22:46   I do like the sort of wireless experience and I want him to sound really good because the only ones that of the tet phones

01:22:52   That you listed that you said you like the sound of better are the way more expensive open backed which is totally different category

01:22:57   you're not gonna use that in an office right because

01:22:59   Cost loans so I don't even use it in my office most of the time, right?

01:23:03   And and you mostly rules out travelers because of all the travel issues or whatever. So

01:23:07   Yeah, so I mean like the thing I was afraid of with these headphones is that everything we had previously surmised about them would be

01:23:13   True and the sound quality would just be like meh, right? But it sounds like the sound quality is better than meh

01:23:18   So now they do have they do have a place in the market

01:23:22   Maybe not a place for Marco who you know

01:23:24   Is got his green eggs and ham thing going on because he's got too many other headphones

01:23:27   And he's got other headphones that he already likes for the other purposes, right?

01:23:30   But most people don't already have like their three favorite headphones for different contexts like Marco, you know

01:23:35   He's got the AirPods Pro for walking the dog and for being away from his desk and also on a plane which is weird

01:23:40   But that's what he likes and for at the desk. He's got his

01:23:42   Fancier, you know open back ones when no one's around or whatever

01:23:46   So this thing doesn't have a place in his life

01:23:48   But if you have zero over your headphones or you have just let's say you'd have just the Bose ones for an airplane

01:23:54   These sound like again if you're willing to spend tons of money for something that sounds good

01:23:57   This could fill

01:23:59   The role in your life where I want to listen to music on headphones without disturbing people and I want that music to sound really

01:24:04   Good, and I'm an Apple user

01:24:06   Yeah, basically, but only if the comfort works for you and only if the price works for you

01:24:10   And that's those are two pretty big ifs. Yeah

01:24:12   I mean

01:24:13   I mean the comfort I think is also part of the context of comfort is how long do you expect to be wearing them if you're

01:24:18   Going to be you know in the olden times at your desk all day long in a stupid open office where you have to wear

01:24:23   Them for eight hours comfort is super important

01:24:25   But if you're just gonna wear them, you know to listen to some tunes while you fiddle on your computer for 45 minutes

01:24:31   Comfort maybe you maybe you're more flexible on that, right?

01:24:34   Maybe you know, maybe it's not as big a deal that after three hours

01:24:37   They start weighing on you right and the magnetically attachable headphones thing that makes me. I mean, it's probably gonna be expensive but

01:24:45   Surely they'll be knockoff third-party something or other earpieces because that's as I found out when I'm looking for earpieces for my DT

01:24:52   770s there's a big market for a replacement

01:24:54   Ear things for headphones and this sounds like a goldmine because you can just make some knockoff ones that sort of kind of fit in

01:25:00   There with the magnets and charge everybody ridiculous amount for them. Someone's gonna you know, buy the leatherette or plush velvet

01:25:06   replacement ear cups and and the good thing about them is they'll be way easier to replace than your average headphone you got to do

01:25:12   That stupid thing with the little flange rim and you're trying to carefully put it up like yeah

01:25:18   Some headphones are better than others. Sometimes actually do have a mechanical thing

01:25:20   But these are super easy just yank these things off and throw the ones on and if it turns out that that is your main

01:25:25   Comfort issue scratchy fabric or and that doesn't distribute the weight and you get a pad that is a nice fabric or leather

01:25:31   That has a bigger contact patch and tire parlance. Maybe that solves the comfort problem for you

01:25:37   Yeah, I mean, I hope that kind of thing develops

01:25:41   Like I hope there is some kind of ecosystem for third-party ones, but I don't know that there will be

01:25:46   I mean

01:25:47   I thought there would be a lot of third-party AirPods pro tips and there really aren't

01:25:50   There's at least one brand that we keep hearing about our friends recommending for the AirPod pros. What are those the foam?

01:25:56   AirPod pro tips. Yeah, I know what you're thinking of. I can't remember what they're called

01:26:00   Yeah, so we'll see but yeah, ultimately

01:26:02   I I'm impressed in so many ways by parts of this product and other parts just seems so bizarrely

01:26:09   Unimpressive. Yeah

01:26:10   The thing I was thinking about when in between these two shows when we talked about this like is that I was thinking about the fact

01:26:15   That we spent an entire previous episode talking about a product that none of us had and then people like oh

01:26:19   How can you talk about you don't even have it, but there's this phenomenon

01:26:22   You'll experience this if you ever work for any company that releases anything to the public or in general and it puts anything out to

01:26:28   the public

01:26:29   When you're working on a thing whether it's a software product or a real-world physical product or whatever it is

01:26:34   You're like you're you're on a small team or even if you're in a big company

01:26:37   but there's a finite set of people who's working on this thing and

01:26:40   You're doing your best you can you're trying to make it the best you can within the time and the budget and

01:26:46   Thinking about all the different features and the things that it has or whatever

01:26:48   But you're only 10 people 20 people 100 people however many people you are and you have weird like weirdly aligned

01:26:56   objectives if you're a manager if you're you know a

01:26:59   Developer if you're a product marketer, you're looking at it from your perspective within the context of the people making this thing

01:27:06   It's true of movies truest podcast or whatever and when you put it out into the world

01:27:10   You know the reason the wisdom of crowds is like we make fun of that saying but the reason it's a saying is because

01:27:15   You put it into the world and it takes like 39 seconds

01:27:19   for out of the 2 billion people that see it if you're Apple because you know, you put out something everybody sees it a

01:27:24   Fraction of a percent look at it and immediately say oh

01:27:28   Well here here are some three obvious problems or you think that case is terrible. The things should fold tighter your competitors fold tighter

01:27:34   Why doesn't it come with a cable like how many people you have you heard us say it last week?

01:27:39   How many other places did you see that you saw it on Twitter? You saw it on every tech website?

01:27:42   so every review right how is it that Apple developed this product in-house for months or years and

01:27:48   Either didn't know about this or didn't think it was that a big deal in the second

01:27:54   We get to see it not even touch it reviewers

01:27:56   Don't even have it. We just look at it and you can look at it with your eyes and go. Oh, no

01:28:00   What's going on with that case because you can look at it and like we did last show say

01:28:04   Here's my knowledge of the existing market

01:28:07   Here's how that thing looks like it works and I can imagine it has problems and the old people get them and they all say

01:28:12   That and you might think oh Apple so dumb don't they know the thing that everyone else immediately realizes that's wrong with their product

01:28:19   But I can tell you as someone who's produced things to put them out to the world

01:28:21   The answer is sometimes no like you're you're just so you have such a different perspective on it when you're making it

01:28:28   Very often you can convince yourself that one thing you think is super important

01:28:32   And the other thing you think is not that important and you get it wrong

01:28:35   Because you're a small set of people with a limited perspective

01:28:37   And the wisdom of crowds is as soon as you put your product out into the real world if there's some stupid thing about it

01:28:43   They'll find it before they even touch your product and you know

01:28:46   Obviously the better you are at the fewer of those that you have and it's great when you nail it all in the first try

01:28:51   But there's a reason there are revisions in iterations of products

01:28:54   So, you know, we look at this headphone and we go like Apple before we even release that I'm let you finish

01:28:59   But let me tell you the five things that are wrong those headphones

01:29:03   Maybe wait and revise like maybe include a hard case maybe include that cable maybe ditch whatever that case thing is or whatever, right?

01:29:11   It's so easy to sort of armchair quarterback that

01:29:14   but

01:29:16   Like that's how we judge a product right?

01:29:18   How many things did they get right how many sort of unforced errors did they make and it sounds like these headphones?

01:29:24   Like a lot of things that Marco was talking about that

01:29:27   He really loved surely people spent a huge amount of time getting that right

01:29:31   doing the dynamic EQ and the sound stage and

01:29:34   Adjusting it so that it essentially sounds to Marco like it is a nice v-shape to EQ of you know

01:29:40   Whatever it's doing whatever computerized crap that it's doing

01:29:42   They probably spent so much time in that because they're like, this is our number one priority and maybe we spent less time in the case

01:29:47   Right, maybe they didn't think too much about that or maybe there was some other thing that was you know

01:29:52   like and

01:29:53   Even though these flaws are obvious to us that like when you're working on you're like, but we did so good on the sound

01:29:58   I'm like, yeah. Yeah, but

01:30:01   If the whole world looks at your product and can immediately see a couple of big problems

01:30:05   You gotta you gotta work on those for the next revision. So I have hope some hope that

01:30:09   Apple will take what seems like

01:30:13   Fairly uniform feedback that like we appreciate the things that you did

01:30:17   well

01:30:17   Here's some small areas where you can do better and

01:30:20   Come up with a rev to a rev three of these like all the other products you just described like the Sony's have changed a little

01:30:25   Bit and the Bose have changed a lot and you know, sometimes for the worst. But anyway

01:30:29   Feed this back in and come up with a second and third revision of these

01:30:33   Assuming this product is successful enough for them to have a second every vision

01:30:36   To just tweak the few things that are wrong and keep the things that are good about it and that can really

01:30:41   Elevate this from a product that has a very narrow appeal especially at the given price to one

01:30:47   That it easier to recommend people with your caveats

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01:32:31   So Marco

01:32:36   I don't really know why you brought your iMac Pro to Apple because clearly if you just

01:32:42   Uninstalled Chrome all your problems would go away part part of the magic of this program is that very often?

01:32:48   We put something into the show notes

01:32:51   And if you just leave it there long enough without getting to it because you're talking about other things

01:32:55   The story develops and sometimes even almost resolves itself on its own and here I think this topic

01:33:02   Benefited from us not talking about it

01:33:05   Immediately because I think now we have more information than we did before kind of like if you just don't answer email

01:33:11   Most of the need for it just goes away after a few days

01:33:14   Yeah this yeah before we get to this yes everyone thank you for telling me about this

01:33:21   I am aware and while I think it was not the problem on my iMac Pro because

01:33:27   They did their firmware diagnostic and found that it's not software related and something is wrong with the logic board apparently with controlling its thermals

01:33:36   It is might have actually been the problem with my 16 inch back I did like a full OS restore

01:33:42   Reinstall on my 16 inch a few months back which was a huge pain in the butt

01:33:46   Because it was having all the problems that

01:33:49   Lauren reports the his 2015 or his wife's 2015 computer having of like just everything slow like slow

01:33:56   keystrokes even like I was having bizarre problems on that and I could not figure out why and

01:34:03   Unfortunately, I can't test this theory on that because I already got tired of it blew it away

01:34:07   And it didn't have those problems after I didn't know less reinstall, but it was bad

01:34:11   It was I've never had to do that on a Mac before or since like to solve a problem like that in that way

01:34:17   You you mentioned Lauren what we're talking about here for people who haven't already been following this story is Lauren brick

01:34:22   They're a developer a famous developer of Tweedy inventor of pull to refresh

01:34:26   Generally technically knowledgeable person was having problems with his Mac

01:34:31   And he turns out that uninstalling Chrome and all the crap that Google uses to control and update Chrome

01:34:38   Solved his problem. He made a website Chrome is bad calm Chrome is bad is all one word where he describes his problem

01:34:45   he describes how to implement the solution and has a bunch of testimonials from other people had similar problems and

01:34:49   This this whole story set off just this big chain of people

01:34:53   Discussing it many people saying I went to your website. I'm having similar problems. My computer seems slow the fans run all the time

01:35:00   It's just generally crappy. I followed your instructions. I uninstalled Chrome

01:35:03   I installed the Keystone updated that Google installs that that updates Chrome behind the scenes and it solved my problem

01:35:09   Right and then other people are like, okay sure but like what actually is the problem, right?

01:35:15   what symptoms are you're seeing beyond my computer seems slow and

01:35:19   what is it about these steps that you took that solved that problem and

01:35:24   Despite this story having been stewing for what week now two weeks, whatever it's been

01:35:30   We don't have a great solution answer to that question. I

01:35:34   think there are a couple things that play here one is

01:35:37   This is revealing sort of the dark matter of computer dissatisfaction where people have max right and the max are

01:35:47   Unsatisfactory in some way they always run hot the fan is always going they always seem slow like they just they're just unsatisfying in a way

01:35:56   Often and it's in a way that's a difference from a change. It's like when the doctor asked you have you seen any change in?

01:36:00   Your you know in your health like recently they just want to like is it different than it used to be?

01:36:04   Right that the people don't expect it to be like this like Marco said maybe typing is slow and you're like typing is slow

01:36:10   Like wow, like what's going on there? Maybe you hear the fans all the time

01:36:14   You're like, I don't feel like I'm doing anything that's making the fans go and maybe that's a change from previous behavior, right?

01:36:20   So there's there's this dissatisfaction, right? And then that someone comes along and says I

01:36:25   Had similar problems

01:36:27   In that they here is my vaguely expressed dissatisfaction my computer seems slow fans running all the time, right?

01:36:34   Here's what I did and it's like install uninstall some third-party program that bunch people already don't like for various reasons

01:36:41   and by the way

01:36:43   The final step of this cleansing is to reboot your computer and if you do all these steps

01:36:48   It's like you have a new computer your fans don't run high anymore

01:36:51   Your typing is fast and responsive. Everything is snappy and then a bunch of people follow those steps and write in say hey

01:36:56   I did that and it worked for me and

01:36:58   For you know for the people who did that great like they presumably solved whatever problem

01:37:04   They were having by doing this thing right now. Maybe three days later the problem came back

01:37:09   We probably don't hear about it then but right but at least there was some positive thing

01:37:12   But the question and technically minded person has is okay

01:37:15   but what was the actual problem and

01:37:19   What was the actual solution I can tell you now that sometimes when your computer gets into a weird state as we all know

01:37:25   Rebooting it

01:37:27   especially if you have your Mac configured not to relaunch all the programs that you were previously running rebooting to the finder with no apps running and

01:37:33   No swapping use right Wow. Everything is like the fans are low and everything feels snappy

01:37:40   Yeah, cuz you're not doing anything on your computer yet

01:37:41   Maybe after a week when you relaunch all your programs and compile everything and get four gigs into swap

01:37:46   maybe you're you know, it starts feeling slow again, right we don't know we want to look for is what is the cause and

01:37:52   Chrome being the idea like I uninstalled it and that fixed all my problems

01:37:57   It's like okay, but what was the actual problem that I can tell you from personal experience one chrome related problem

01:38:02   I see a lot is guess what? You've got a million chrome windows not a mic even or my wife's computer

01:38:06   Got a million chrome windows. You would never have a million chrome windows

01:38:09   I do but here's the important distinction

01:38:11   None of those windows are showing Facebook in any form or a page with crazy ads that go nuts

01:38:18   like you know in the middle of the night some tab in some background window a background tab and a background chrome window has some

01:38:23   Add in it that decides you know what 100% CPU is it Bitcoin mining?

01:38:27   Who knows what the hell is doing but it's it's always and chrome itself has like a task manager

01:38:31   Inside chrome to tell you which tabs are being naughty

01:38:34   Which I feel like if you know which tabs are being no you like to spend them and there's a chrome extension that will do

01:38:38   That for you and suspend all your background tabs. But anyway, I'll go there. I'll do that

01:38:43   I'll find the three Facebook tags that are for whatever reason are freaking out because some ad running in the sidebar is Bitcoin mining and

01:38:49   I'll close those tabs and

01:38:51   Then suddenly all the fans go back down, right?

01:38:53   So that is a way that Chrome can be a culprit if you uninstall Chrome

01:38:58   Or if you simply don't run Chrome you will never have an open Chrome tab with a crazy Bitcoin mining ad

01:39:04   Right or just some web page that goes nuts and starts just grinding your CPU forever and that will make your fans spin up and so

01:39:10   On and so forth, right?

01:39:11   So that's one thing that could be solving these fuels problem

01:39:13   And by the way

01:39:14   Safari is way nicer to your battery is way better on your CPU if you're if you care about that at all

01:39:20   Do not use Chrome especially of a laptop and battery use Safari it is better on your battery than Chrome

01:39:25   The other thing is this keystone thing that updates Chrome in the background for you. Some people say look, I'm not even running Chrome

01:39:32   But keystone is doing something terrible my computer the second I remove keystone

01:39:36   Everything got better and one of the culprits they they label is the the Windows Server

01:39:40   Which is part of the Mac operating system its job is like composite the various

01:39:43   Buffers that you see that make up the windows on the screen, right?

01:39:46   It would be using a huge amount of CPU and they're like I uninstalled Chrome and keystone and Windows Server CPU usage went down

01:39:53   Lots of people say that lots of people say that my computer was running hot. I'm not doing anything

01:39:58   I open up activity monitor and I see Windows Server taking 100% CPU. I install Chrome and it solved that problem

01:40:03   Maybe maybe it did but again, it's technically minding people who want to know

01:40:08   Yeah, but how like how did the program that's not running make Windows Server go nuts?

01:40:13   And there's one theory and this unfortunately is still on Chrome is bad.com. I think let me just double check

01:40:17   Yeah, something called keystone this is the top of the site which bizarrely hides what it's doing from activity monitor

01:40:25   There's a footnote now. What does it say?

01:40:28   You know hiding from activity monitor inconceivable trust me I know computers

01:40:32   Correct. The keystone updater process itself doesn't hide from activity monitor. It briefly shows up and disappears on schedule

01:40:38   That is not the issue

01:40:39   It is causing something else in the system you to consume massive CPU that leaves no indication that Chrome and keystone are in fact

01:40:43   The culprits. All right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, that's an interesting theory, but you kind of have to say but how does it do that?

01:40:50   How does a program that runs briefly and when it runs it does not hide from activity monitor runs it appears and then it

01:40:56   Quits the whole point is it's checking for updates

01:40:58   How does the act of running and then not running at all cause Windows Server forevermore to flip out?

01:41:04   Is it plausible that can happen?

01:41:06   Sure trigger bug in the OS call some private API that makes Windows Server freak out and go into an infinite loop could happen

01:41:12   but we don't

01:41:14   know that that's what's happening and

01:41:16   There are many counterexamples as in everyone else who's running Chrome where key server the keystone thing runs periodically on its own

01:41:23   And it doesn't make their Windows Server freak out. I run Chrome 24 hours a day seven days a week on my computer

01:41:28   Keystone presumably is running in the background. My Windows Server never freaks out doesn't mean this bug doesn't exist

01:41:34   Just means I'm not experiencing it. So the people who are experiencing it are, you know getting this bug. They're getting unlucky

01:41:39   They have a problematic setup the thing

01:41:41   I haven't seen anyone to mention yet

01:41:43   Although if you do some googling you could find it when Chrome auto updates itself

01:41:47   at various times it has

01:41:50   done weird things behind the scenes like archiving previous versions of itself and keeping state around about how many different versions it is updated from

01:41:57   and stuff

01:41:58   Or would fill your disk with old versions of Chrome or get its database of what versions it's dealt with corrupted and flip out about that

01:42:05   So I don't find it entirely inconceivable that the Chrome updater and all of its bookkeeping

01:42:11   Can end up getting into a state where the auto updater

01:42:14   Itself does bad things or spins for a while or fruitlessly tries to get an update that is never gonna be able to get

01:42:20   Or otherwise, you know spin its wheels

01:42:22   and

01:42:24   One thing related someone installed another chromium based browser. I think it was that was brave

01:42:30   I think and they're like new their default new tab page

01:42:33   Was making Windows Server goes nuts and if you turn on like the quartz debug thing

01:42:38   which shows you screen updates you could see that the

01:42:41   The default like new tab page and brave was redrawing itself like as fast as it possibly could over and over and over again

01:42:46   Which was basically asking Windows Server. Hey composite this buffer. Hey composite this buffer

01:42:51   Hey composite this buffer over and over and over again as fast as it possibly can

01:42:54   That if you ever see Windows Server going up in CPU

01:42:57   Something is asking the Windows Server to composite buffers or do some screen related window compositing thing

01:43:04   Over and over and over again, and if you're looking at your screen you're like, but nothing's happening

01:43:08   It's possible that some program somewhere maybe even something that's not even visible is

01:43:13   Flipping out and doing something wrong. That's calling causing the Windows Server CPU to increase right? So

01:43:19   Unfortunately, maybe we didn't wait long enough. This is not a particularly we don't have a conclusion. No one knows what the actual problem is

01:43:26   No one knows if Chrome is involved at all

01:43:28   We do know that if you follow a bunch of these steps that can make your computer feel better

01:43:33   So can just rebooting so can just quitting all of your programs so can logging out and logging back in

01:43:38   Right so can just not using Chrome and using Safari instead because Chrome in general is more of a CPU hog

01:43:43   Right, but none of that is satisfying like we people want it there to be a culprit. It's because I had a problem

01:43:49   I took steps the problem is gone. Therefore the steps I took

01:43:52   Exactly correlate to fixing the problem. Maybe they do but with computers and with programmers you kind of know

01:43:59   Yeah, yeah, but why but how but what actually happened right? What is the bug now?

01:44:04   We don't know that we don't have the source code to Keystone and honestly

01:44:06   It's not our problem to figure that out

01:44:07   If there really is a problem of Chrome, it should be the Chrome's team's job to figure it out

01:44:11   Right and there have been bugs in Chrome many many times there's bugs in all sorts of programs

01:44:15   But when it's a general malaise as in my computer is unsatisfactory in some way

01:44:19   There are so many things that can be from spider eggs to malware to like just you know

01:44:26   a bad tab open in Chrome to who knows what like we've all had processes go awry or

01:44:33   Things freak out that are part of the operating system or third-party software drivers or a flaky USB device

01:44:39   Like computers are really complicated. So I am immediately suspicious of anyone pinning blame on any one particular thing

01:44:45   Especially when they can't tell me what the actual problem is again

01:44:49   It's not the responsibility to tell me but if you're gonna conclusively say Chrome is the problem uninstall Chrome and it will fix your computer

01:44:54   And if it doesn't I don't care because it fixed my computer. I

01:44:57   Don't know like I'm not here to carry water for Chrome even though I use all the time and I like it but I

01:45:04   Feel like this is an unsatisfying technical mystery like

01:45:09   The most satisfying ones are the ones where your computer is doing something weird and someone eventually figures out what the problem is

01:45:16   The less satisfying ones are my computer's doing something weird and I found solution

01:45:21   But I don't know why it worked and that's that's the situation we're in now

01:45:24   There is a problem. There's a vaguely specified problem

01:45:27   There is a very cleanly specified solution, but there is no explanation for why it worked other than that those steps

01:45:35   I took they must have stopped something from doing something that was bad. I know there's a lot of people swear

01:45:39   It's true though

01:45:40   I mean like what can be true is I did the thing in my computer got better

01:45:43   But that doesn't the that doesn't you can't jump from that to say therefore

01:45:48   Keystone is nefarious and doing something there, but you can't even jump to therefore Keystone has a bug

01:45:53   We don't even know if you submit for all we know the Windows Server has a bug triggered by Keystone doing perfectly normal things

01:45:58   Like if you don't know what the problem is, you don't know where to assign blame

01:46:01   Yeah, I mean that that explanation wouldn't surprise me in the least because I have like I haven't used Big Sur

01:46:10   For enough time to know if this is still true on Big Sur, but for Catalina, I have never

01:46:15   had a Mac OS version

01:46:18   Have as many problems as Catalina has in specifically this kind of area of like

01:46:23   random performance slowdowns for no apparent reason that are solved by rebooting and

01:46:30   Oftentimes, you know correlating to background demons just going nuts for no apparent reason

01:46:35   like the other day I posted a screenshot on Twitter or like about you know,

01:46:39   like all the high CPU usage and the the handful of Catalina background demons that were

01:46:43   Seemingly consuming all these things for no reason and one of them was Dropbox. So everyone's like, oh, yeah Dropbox

01:46:48   Well, I I quit Dropbox and a half hour later

01:46:51   those same

01:46:53   System processes were still like spinning 100 CPU each and so I eventually rebooted and of course the problem went away and this is like

01:46:59   It doesn't matter. I don't know whose fault this is. I don't know as you were saying John

01:47:04   I don't know if this is like a bug in the OS or

01:47:07   The a certain way that certain apps I have installed like whether it's Dropbox or Chrome or whatever a certain way that they trigger

01:47:15   bugs in the OS I don't know but it is a real problem and these solutions do often fix it and

01:47:22   So from my point of view as a user

01:47:24   It's like well look you guys figure this out like Apple Dropbox Chrome, whoever you are figure it out amongst yourselves

01:47:31   This is your fault in some way, but it becomes my problem as a user and I have to take measures to deal with it

01:47:37   We don't know as you said like we don't know enough to assign blame

01:47:41   But it does seem like there is a real problem here that many people face that is solved by removing Chrome

01:47:48   I mean, but there's a million problems

01:47:50   They potentially solved by a million things including the rebooting which is the final step like so we don't even know if it's just one thing

01:47:57   Like like you said if it's if it's an OS level problem like there's a little bit of the doctor at Hertzman

01:48:02   I did this then don't do this thing. It's like well

01:48:04   When I use my computer occasionally background demons freak out and cause high CPU load

01:48:10   It's like well just don't use your computer. You won't have that problem

01:48:12   Like, you know, it's like if you think it's some piece of third-party software and you stop using that software

01:48:17   But then it happens again. What do you do? I'll just stop using my computer. I'll just stop using finder

01:48:21   I'll just stop using a web browser like

01:48:23   When there are OS level bugs, especially if those OS level bugs are triggered by completely valid normal non-nefarious

01:48:30   application behavior any

01:48:32   Application you run can potentially trigger that bug whether it's discovery D freaking out and not looking up names or whatever

01:48:38   Like that's the nature of OS bugs and they will manifest

01:48:41   Essentially no matter what if there's just one program trigger and Chrome triggers it but like brave or edge don't or Safari doesn't then

01:48:48   Yeah, you solve your problem by saying it hurts when I do this. Okay. Well don't do that

01:48:50   Don't use Chrome use something else, right?

01:48:52   But you still don't know what the actual problem is the thing about like Dropbox and stuff is it's somewhat satisfying to at least have

01:48:59   a plausible theory

01:49:01   Dropbox to know when things happen on disk has to monitor changes in the Dropbox folder and there are a bunch of API's for

01:49:08   Doing that but one of them is essentially to drink from the FS events fire hose, which is just like look

01:49:13   You know Apple operating system. Just tell me everything that happens

01:49:17   Related to the file system and I'll figure out whether I care about it or not, right?

01:49:21   And doing that is expensive because you do something that does a lot to the file system say expanding Xcode

01:49:28   Which creates a bazillion files?

01:49:30   Every single one of those bazillion files is firing off an FS event and Dropbox is there running and saying oh my god

01:49:36   Look at all these events do I would care about this one? No, do I care about this one?

01:49:39   No, do I care about this one? No, and that burns CPU

01:49:41   and so when you're running Dropbox and you're expanding Xcode and you see your CPU usage going up and

01:49:48   Then you try that same process with Dropbox not running and it gets faster

01:49:51   You have a plausible somewhat provable

01:49:54   theory of what's happening because you can run s trace on Dropbox when you're expanding Xcode and watch it calling the FS events like

01:50:00   that is much more satisfying when it's just like

01:50:04   My computer does weird things and I can't figure out why it can be so many things and that's why these sort of

01:50:09   The anecdotes of I followed your instructions and it made it better is very much like I mean you can make up any instruction stand

01:50:15   On one foot touch your nose and reboot your computer. It's like oh everything got better

01:50:18   Yeah, rebooting your computer fixes a lot of problems. It's not on it's not very satisfying

01:50:23   But it's true

01:50:25   But if I tell you do anything before you reboot or let's say you don't reboot just quitting programs solves lots of problems because if you

01:50:30   Quit the program that was causing a problem or that one program was using a lot of memory it put you it pushed you into

01:50:34   Swap and that was your problem everything got slow because it's swapping right even though you have an SSD

01:50:39   Swapping is still bad and you can get into a bad way

01:50:41   Like people aren't equipped and shouldn't be have to be equipped to diagnose their computer anymore

01:50:46   They know what that weird noise is under the hood of their car, right?

01:50:49   They just know that something is wrong

01:50:51   And that's why you take your car to someone who knows or you hope like Apple or the developers figure out how to make it

01:50:57   so there aren't problems but

01:50:59   Anytime someone comes up with like a you know

01:51:01   Try this one weird trick to fix your computer the chances of that one weird trick being the solution to everyone's problem

01:51:07   It's very very low and more likely

01:51:09   Literally doing anything to your computer to perturb what you were doing before doctor hurts when I do this stop doing that

01:51:17   Hey, it solved my problem. So I

01:51:19   I don't like the idea that people are thinking this was the solution

01:51:24   I do like the idea that people are having a better experience with their computers

01:51:28   but

01:51:29   We won't make forward progress in our computers getting better unless somebody

01:51:33   Able to figure out what's going on, right? Like Apple figured out. Hey discovery D not so good

01:51:38   We got you got a we got to fix that if instead apples like oh, I don't know. It's just some vague problem

01:51:43   We can't figure it out. We had to be pinpointed had to say

01:51:46   This is the thing that's wrong because when I swap it for the old thing all of a sudden my whole computer gets better and it's

01:51:52   Not because you're running a web browser and it's not because you're doing this. It's because there's an OS level component. That's host, right?

01:51:57   that's the solution I want to see or

01:51:59   Explanation right either someone's using a private API someone's doing something to trigger bug in the OS

01:52:05   But someone has to figure this out and just not running Chrome the world's most popular web browser

01:52:11   I think it's probably not the best solution

01:52:13   So either Chrome's got to figure it out or Apple's got to figure out or someone's got to figure out

01:52:17   So I really hope all the people who are following the instructions that I think are on this website or at least tweeted of

01:52:22   Like how to provide diagnostic information to the Chrome team the Chrome team is like look if you think it's us like help us

01:52:29   help you we want to fix this too, but we need to know that it's us first and

01:52:33   It's difficult situation because as Marco he says like it's not his job to help Apple debug their crap

01:52:39   But on the other hand if nobody does it nothing ever gets fixed

01:52:42   Thanks to our sponsors this week Linode Mac Weldon and flat file and thank you to our members who support us directly

01:52:49   You too can join at ATP that FM slash join. Thank you, and we will talk to you next week

01:52:55   Now the show is over they didn't even mean to begin because it was accidental

01:53:05   was accidental

01:53:08   John didn't do any research Marco and Casey wouldn't let him because it was accidental

01:53:15   was accidental

01:53:19   And you can find the show notes at ATP

01:53:22   FM and if you're into Twitter

01:53:26   You can follow them at

01:53:29   CAS

01:53:31   ey L

01:53:33   ISS so that's Casey lists and a RC Oh a RM

01:53:37   anti Marco Arman

01:53:40   SIR AC

01:53:43   USA, Syracuse

01:53:45   It's accidental

01:53:47   You know in our super secret private chat

01:54:01   copyright due by Friday

01:54:04   Marco had said in exasperation a couple of days ago, you know screw it

01:54:08   Maybe I'll just go get an XDR and it occurred to me in our super secret private chat

01:54:13   And I said to you Marco that you getting the XDR first and then saying well, I mean I have this XDR

01:54:20   I've got to get a Mac Pro to match it. That was not the route. I expected you to take

01:54:25   God, I I have never wanted more for Apple to just make the monitor

01:54:31   I want like that. There's such a giant hole in the market, especially now as they just released these amazingly compelling

01:54:39   laptops and Mac minis

01:54:42   And there is not yet a similarly compelling

01:54:45   iMac or Mac Pro like it's like everybody like so many people want to be using these brand new laptops and

01:54:53   Mac minis as

01:54:55   their desktops all of a sudden and the only option is either this terrible LG monitor or Apple's

01:55:02   $7,000 monster

01:55:03   I mean

01:55:04   the only reason they all want them is because these are the only our max that are out and they're the low-end ones and I

01:55:09   Think everyone who is like I'm gonna use a fanless air as my main computer that that instinct that desire that whole

01:55:16   Thing is just gonna go away as soon as Apple releases the presumably much faster much better much, you know

01:55:21   Much better suited to people needs Pro

01:55:23   Armax and then and then you say hey, I thought you were gonna use your arm as your as your main computer like yeah

01:55:28   But now the iMac is out. Yeah, and that's like and I

01:55:31   right now I am using my amazing little fanless Mac mini as my main computer and

01:55:37   You know, there are some things about it that are not as fast as they could be

01:55:41   But I think most of that is most of that feels like software problems. Honestly, it doesn't feel like hardware

01:55:46   There's still a lot of stuff that is that is not optimized for

01:55:50   Apple silicon that I'm that kind of surprises me like like Dropbox they claim that it works

01:55:56   But it doesn't like if you look at activity monitor, it still says different Intel binaries

01:55:59   One password and all of its sub processes are still not

01:56:03   I can't run call recorder at all for Skype because that's and that's not at all compatible yet

01:56:07   So there's like there's certain things about it that that are weird and not yet optimized

01:56:13   I yes, I am fully aware that my own two Mac apps are also not optimized

01:56:19   But that doesn't really matter because they work fine. Well, wait, what why aren't you to max?

01:56:23   Max optimize when she's recompiled

01:56:26   Quitter I could try haven't touched quitter in so long

01:56:29   I bet it will be an ordeal to do it because now I have to deal with things like notarization all of those stuff

01:56:34   fine

01:56:36   forecast uses the

01:56:38   mp3 encoding library lame

01:56:40   And I and it like it uses one that's built from homebrew

01:56:44   And so I kind of have to like I think I assume I have to wait for that to be easily buildable on

01:56:49   Our max and it isn't yet as far as I have to does it does it run it in a separate process

01:56:55   Or is it all in process? No, it's in process, but it's separately built a dilib

01:56:59   Yeah, all right. Well that one's gonna be a pain, but I think what right you would just be mad at recompiling

01:57:03   But it just doesn't matter like I don't even run quitter anymore myself. Honestly. It's kind of abandoned but it quit quitter

01:57:08   Yeah, but and forecast like forecast should matter but in practice, you know

01:57:16   You're only running it for a few minutes here and there and it's so fast

01:57:18   Anyway, and and Rosetta is so fast that in practice. It doesn't really matter

01:57:24   For that app. So once it once it becomes easy to support the encoding library on that

01:57:29   On Apple silicon that I will issue the update but it isn't yet easy. And so it's not worth trouble

01:57:34   I want to go back a step though. I think even though I have used the LG 5k

01:57:42   Briefly, but many times because my dad has one

01:57:45   I didn't find it nearly as offensive as you but again, I've only been using it for ten minutes at a time once

01:57:52   you know once every month or two, so this is not extended use by any stretch, but

01:57:56   Despite that and even though I don't find it to be that particularly terrible

01:58:01   It does kind of baffle me that Apple doesn't have

01:58:06   something

01:58:08   Less than the pro display XDR and I know we've been around this several times

01:58:13   But I just I keep coming back to and thinking about you know

01:58:16   and you guys have said this other people said this one of the great things about Apple in the same way like

01:58:21   You with coca-cola and I think John especially said this before

01:58:24   that you know, the president is drinking the same coke or diet coke that I'm drinking and

01:58:28   the president may or may not be using the same iPhone I'm using and and yet Apple in certain circumstances

01:58:36   Is in much to our request is reaching into these?

01:58:41   Ridiculous stratospheres where no normal human other than John, Syracuse is buying a seven thousand dollar monitor for his home computer

01:58:49   Like why would you do that? That's ridiculous

01:58:52   And so I I don't begrudge them having the pro display XDR because we told them we want

01:58:57   Professionals to feel catered and they said okay. Well, here you go. You know, you're now we're catering to catering to professionals

01:59:03   but that that kind of

01:59:06   attainable if

01:59:09   challenging level that like I feel like Apple isn't

01:59:13   fulfilling that in a lot of spaces right now and that's very frustrating and in in

01:59:19   It's like Apple lost a little of that. I keep coming back to like

01:59:22   Prestige and I don't know if that's the right word for it. But you know Apple's kind of a prestige brand to some degree

01:59:28   you know, it's it's a brand that a

01:59:30   regular human can reach out and grab

01:59:32   on a regular human income, you know, you don't have to be making ten million dollars a year to buy a really nice iPhone and

01:59:39   I

01:59:41   It bums me out that there's no

01:59:44   reasonable Apple monitor

01:59:48   For these computers that from from everything anyone has said are unreal. They're phenomenally great computers

01:59:55   They're bringing back. Like I'm listening to my friends and listening to press talk about these computers and there's that like I

02:00:02   Mean, it's not a glint in the eye because I'm listening not seeing these people but there's that verbal glint if you will

02:00:08   That this is this computing got fun again all of a sudden. It's not just incremental every year. This is like this is fun

02:00:15   this is this is brand new in a lot of ways and

02:00:18   Yet we're mating it to these god-awful displays and it's just and it's just it stinks and I guess it would be less offensive

02:00:25   if the market

02:00:27   as a whole

02:00:29   Catered to these needs, you know if there was some

02:00:31   $2,000 and it's not even about the money but for the sake of discussion

02:00:35   There's some $2,000 Dell monitor that had like a really nice enclosure and a really nice stand

02:00:40   I can still imagine you guys saying well, oh, it's still got the Dell logo in the front or oh, I don't really like that

02:00:47   It's black and not gray or it's plastic not metal. But still you know what? It's a great panel. It's a great monitor

02:00:53   So whatever not that big a deal, you know what I mean? That's exactly what I did like the problem is

02:00:58   The the direction that the market went like for a while

02:01:01   Pre retina and pre high DPI for a while the PC monitor market and the Mac monitor market was

02:01:10   Compatible and not only in like the technical sense of it that will work

02:01:13   but they wanted the same things and the high-end was kind of the same or at least like it was a lot closer and

02:01:20   and so for a like for before in the pre retina day is like what PC monitors wanted in the

02:01:27   24-inch LCD range was the same thing that Apple monitors wanted in the 24 inch LCD range and then what happened was

02:01:33   Apple went retina multiplied everything by 2x and the PC world didn't and

02:01:38   Things have diverged in how each one of these worlds handles high DPI monitors whether they even want them at all

02:01:46   And then what their priorities are the PC monitor market is

02:01:51   largely like either the absolute worst bargain basement crap for business buyers who don't care and just need screens or

02:01:58   It's stuff charted at gamers and gamers have very very different priorities like for gamers

02:02:04   It's much more about high refresh rates and about yes high pixel densities

02:02:09   but not as high as Apple goes because those are harder to drive at high frame rates and

02:02:13   And so the markets have diverged now and so now

02:02:16   What Apple users want and need and prioritize is?

02:02:20   Not at all satisfied by what the PC makers are making to satisfy their market

02:02:25   So there's basically no one left to solve this need

02:02:30   Except either Apple themselves or in the case of like this LG monitor and many of their peripherals by say Belkin

02:02:37   some third-party manufacturer where Apple has basically like handed someone the

02:02:43   Parts and market to make the thing themselves that Apple doesn't really want to make

02:02:48   Like, you know, obviously these LG monitors were designed with Apple's help and and they're obviously

02:02:54   There might even be a business deal to

02:02:58   Where LG makes these for Apple as part of some contract because Apple wanted us to exist

02:03:04   But didn't want to bother having to make and sell it and support it themselves

02:03:06   So who knows how that worked out?

02:03:09   but clearly like there were some cooperation between the two companies to make this same thing with all the stupid little adapters that Apple kind of

02:03:15   Co makes with Belkin that Apple doesn't want to sell themselves and

02:03:19   Yeah, so that's that's what happened with the monitors and it's a shame because if the monitor situation was better if Apple

02:03:27   Still did what they did forever. We should sell a good monitor in the you know

02:03:33   27 inch to 30 inch range for you know, 1500 bucks 1200 bucks, whatever it would be

02:03:39   That would be amazing and the monitor that like and the panel that they could sell is what they've been shipping in the iMac

02:03:47   since

02:03:49   2014

02:03:50   Like this is not new this is it's not like the technology is just cutting edge and they can only fit it in an iMac

02:03:55   No, maybe that might have been true in 2014. That's not true now

02:03:59   Because obviously the LG can make it. So obviously Apple can make it too and

02:04:04   It's just so frustrating that they're just choosing not to like I like what you said about like, you know

02:04:09   They they are leaving these huge gaps. I've I've kind of thought

02:04:13   When looking at certain products, you know when looking at the AirPods Pro Max for sure

02:04:18   When looking at certainly the Pro Display XDR the Mac Pro and even you know, like their accessories business

02:04:25   Like all the the weird super expensive iPad cases and stuff the super expensive

02:04:30   MagSafe double charger thing that the duo that doesn't include the power break. It almost seems like there's two apples. There's one

02:04:39   one side of the company is

02:04:42   getting pretty good or has been pretty good at

02:04:45   delivering decent value and

02:04:48   There's other side. Not only are they not even trying but like it's almost spiteful

02:04:54   How bad of a value they're delivering

02:04:56   Or how much of a market they are intentionally leaving?

02:05:01   Totally unaddressed, but I don't think that's necessarily profitable. Like yeah, you know what happens when Apple charges

02:05:09   $129 for a little bedside charger. Most people don't

02:05:15   Get forced into buying it and go like I guess I'll reluctantly give Apple $129

02:05:21   No, they just buy something else from some third party on Amazon for cheap. Like that's that's what actually happens here

02:05:25   if somebody needs a monitor and

02:05:27   The only one Apple sells is seven thousand dollars

02:05:30   Almost nobody except jerks like me and John are gonna be like, okay, I guess I'll buy that reluctantly

02:05:36   No, most people are like, well, I'm just not gonna buy that no matter what you say or do or no matter what I need

02:05:42   so I'm gonna find other options and

02:05:45   It's a shame because that's really just lost business for Apple at the end of the day and it's worse products for everyone else

02:05:51   But not much lost business

02:05:53   Like that's the reason like the the thinking that leads them not to make that thing is the same thing that leads them not to

02:05:58   Make Wi-Fi routers and all these other things where even Wi-Fi routers had a bigger mark in this like Apple most computers

02:06:03   Apple sells come with monitors the ones that don't are the Mac Pro, which is now you're already in the market for a $7,000 monitor

02:06:10   So that's a perfect match set there. No, there's no discount there. Right the Mac mini, which is like well

02:06:14   That's a weird ass computer that nobody uses and you know

02:06:17   Let them fend for themselves the whole point is you bring your own monitor and keyboard or use in a data center or whatever

02:06:21   Definitely like a sideshow and then all those people with laptops who just buy Dell 4k monitors that Marco doesn't like because everything is the wrong

02:06:28   size but no one else cares or they buy those really big wide monitors like that overlap between like what the PC monitor market is

02:06:34   Fits fine for people who just who want one of those big curved monitors and don't care and hook it up to their laptop

02:06:39   And so what's left what's left is weird people and now we're like Marco or me conceivably

02:06:45   Where you have this very specific desire like you buy a monitor to list computer from Apple or you want to use it with your?

02:06:52   laptop

02:06:53   But you don't want any of the PC ones because you don't like the curves and you want the DPI to be

02:06:58   What you expect it to be and it's like it's getting narrower and narrower and it's like I feel like Apple learned from making like

02:07:03   the Thunderbolt display the 24 27 inch Thunderbolt display and

02:07:06   24 inch Apple LED display before that they just don't sell a lot of those monitors because people look at those just like the weird

02:07:13   $129 bedside thing they're like I'll pass I'll buy a Dell monitor right and who's left just you know

02:07:19   just the people who want an external monitor which is already a fraction of a fraction and just the people who are willing to pay the

02:07:26   Admittedly not ridiculous Apple premium for a monitor instead of just buying the cheap Dell that is the wrong shape or whatever

02:07:33   So the bean counter perspective on why they don't make this make sense

02:07:37   Same way it does for getting out of printers or Wi-Fi routers or whatever because everyone looks the Wi-Fi route and like oh

02:07:43   I like that one, but I'll just buy the cheaper

02:07:45   You know links this router right?

02:07:47   But the the thing that everyone's missing that the bean counter perspective missing is sometimes you got to make products that don't particularly make sense

02:07:54   on a spreadsheet

02:07:56   Just to give a better sort of cohesive product story right it satisfies your most loyal most stupid

02:08:03   Customers who are willing to spend tons of money

02:08:05   They become evangelists for your brand and even if you lose money in every single one of those

02:08:10   5k Apple displays that you make in the grand scheme of things in the long run it helps your business and that

02:08:15   That pitch is the one that you need to make inside Apple to make this happen and it seems like

02:08:20   That pitch has been a tougher and tougher sell

02:08:23   I mean it's the same kind of pitch that made Apple take its eye off the Mac

02:08:26   It's like yeah

02:08:27   But we make all money off the iPhone and we just need to satisfy

02:08:29   Existing Mac users are some minimal level and they learn that lesson of like no you actually have to

02:08:33   You have to put more in than you think to the Mac market even though

02:08:36   when you you know when you look those line graphs like the Mac is in the mix with like I don't know like

02:08:41   Whatever other products that is in the mix with it's not you know

02:08:45   It's it's like the iPhone and now services and then the other products Apple makes you know

02:08:49   Charging bricks and also the Mac, right?

02:08:52   Kind of the same level of stuff

02:08:55   But but it's like you have sometimes you have to spend more than it seems like it's worth to keep

02:09:01   To keep the ball rolling right and they learned it on the Mac

02:09:04   But they haven't learned it on the sort of accessories thing

02:09:07   the sort of the idea that you want to provide a holistic Apple experience Steve Jobs seemed to be into that because he liked the

02:09:13   Idea of being able to sell you all the things even though the vast majority customers aren't gonna buy all the things, right?

02:09:19   but having all the things on offer I

02:09:21   Think makes your product and brand more valuable. I mean obviously has a drug line somewhere like maybe probably Apple shouldn't be making printers anymore

02:09:29   right, but a

02:09:31   Monitor for your computers that matches them that almost nobody's gonna buy that you're already

02:09:35   Have the panels for that you're using in your iMacs, right?

02:09:38   That I feel like is a small reach just making iMac no chin. No computer guts like it's right. It's right there

02:09:44   It doesn't it's not that much more and you're like, but I can't justify those development expenses

02:09:48   No, you probably can't you're probably gonna make it back right but do it

02:09:52   Anyway, because it makes your most loyal customers happy and it looks good in product shots and consider it part of your marketing budget

02:09:58   There Apple, there's my pitch hire me

02:10:00   [beeping]