0:00:00Is it only Sprite on those rare once-a-decade occasions that you treat yourself or is 7up acceptable?
0:00:06Oh 7up is well do in a pinch but not really I mean I like 7up I do I like it
0:00:13But it's it's like saying is it just chocolate or vanilla like I like both of them
0:00:16But when you want vanilla and you get chocolate like oh, but I wanted vanilla, right?
0:00:20So even though they look the same and people will say they taste kind of the same, you know
0:00:24Anyway, I have no Sprite or 7up in the house and I never do. What about Sierra Mist?
0:00:29Oh good question that is garbage and maybe you could use it to clean something. I don't know Wow
0:00:34All right, so I'm sorry you said
0:00:387up if you can I mean, I don't know it depends on what mood I'm in right
0:00:42It's like say we have a little chocolate if you can otherwise vanilla. Sometimes you want vanilla. Sometimes you want chocolate
0:00:46I'm trying to nail you down. You're not letting me
0:00:48I'm not I don't have strong feelings about drink a drink that I almost never drink like remember
0:00:53This is the only thing you don't have strong feelings about John Sarah
0:00:56well, here's the thing the only reason the only reason I'm known for this drink is because when I go out to a restaurant and
0:01:02You know
0:01:04Either the thing comes with a drink or I don't want to just have water because we're doing everything fancy
0:01:09what I have to pick something to drink it's not water and
0:01:11When I'm at home, I'm not forced to make that choice. I just have water all the time
0:01:15Whatever makes you happy John. I used to have milk, but that's got too many calories and not good for your cholesterol
0:01:21So well almond milk man. No, come on
0:01:25Again, maybe if I need to clean something Wow
0:01:28Wow almond milk is good. Come on
0:01:30You listen to the milk episode of top four none of those none of those so-called milks are good
0:01:35Well, yeah, they're all just different forms of sugar and starch
0:01:37But but yeah, I'm in milk would be also a terrible choice to clean things with
0:01:41Maybe it's like skin so soft where you're trying to get it like a sticker scum off
0:01:45It's so it's so like slimy that it'll make the sticky stuff not stick. It's like an oily thing
0:01:50No
0:01:54On the milk you can't even clean with it
0:01:56All right. We don't have time to kill John we have we have to hurry it up
0:02:00Can we hear the one who's pressing me on my choice of drink?
0:02:03I have a glass of water next to me on a different level than my computers. What else is new? I
0:02:07Have I have a water bottle directly behind my keyboard in a glass full of ice that is prepared for later
0:02:15That is sitting to the right of my magic track bed
0:02:18And I have a giant 20 ounce bottle of house black cherry salsa sitting on my desk at the same level as most of my gear
0:02:25Except for my MacBook Air because on top of a speaker which is running this entire operation through my LG 5k
0:02:30Ultrafine monitor. Oh man, we're gonna get to that but let's not get there yet. All right, I
0:02:36Would like to re-air my grievance and I will be very quick about it
0:02:41Aaron is still having
0:02:45Intermittent SMS and we're really group MMS issues
0:02:48Please Apple for the sake of my marriage, please. Can we fix this for real this time?
0:02:54You sort of fixed it and what was it like 14 one something and then 14 three or whatever just came out
0:03:00It was like no no, we fixed it for realsies this time literally an hour ago. She was not receiving group MMS's
0:03:05I filed a feedback before you all get angry feedback FB eight eight nine three zero zero three
0:03:12There will be a link in the show notes Apple people. Please save me save me
0:03:16Aaron is so over this and I am almost as bad as she is. This is ridiculous
0:03:20This is a communication device that doesn't communicate. Please fix this. Thank you
0:03:24All right. Tell me about B&O headphones
0:03:27These are bang and all some headphones that I've mentioned last show
0:03:30They're sort of like AirPods max and I think it's an interesting comparison
0:03:33Because banging all of a sudden is a similar kind of like luxury fancy brand and in fact the appearance and construction is very similar
0:03:40You know metal or the appearance of metal and you know
0:03:44They even have a white model with the white pads and white strap and everything looks kind of air potty
0:03:48So these are the BO play god. I really don't like I understand what they're going to be
0:03:52No, but it's there it's be o pl a why it's a bad name. Anyway, the BO play h95
0:03:58They are
0:03:59$800 as you would imagine from bang and all of a sudden is like a little step up in terms of price from Apple because bang
0:04:04All of a sudden is clearly a luxury brand. It doesn't have any pretense of being a real consumer brand. They're
0:04:1023 grams instead of 385 like the max so a little bit lighter
0:04:13But they do have metal on the open link in the show notes of these they come with the hard case and they are
0:04:19Symmetrically folding but they do fold the ear cups into the negative space made by the headband
0:04:25so they get smaller than the Apple ones and they come with a hard case two things that Apple chose not to do and or
0:04:31Blew it on including depending on your stance on it and they come with a regular 3.5 inch 3.5
0:04:38millimeter audio cable thing plus the two prong little
0:04:42Airplane headphone adapter plus a USB C day what looks like C day charging cable
0:04:48And bang also makes a bunch of different models. They make this $800 one
0:04:52They also make a $300 one and a $500 one which drop various amounts of features from the $800 one
0:04:58So this is a very direct
0:05:00competitor in terms of
0:05:03Pricing feature set and aesthetics they gets a bunch of things right that Apple's doesn't by the way
0:05:07I think this fancy one also like the entire outside of the ear cup is like a
0:05:10Giant dial so it even gets the physical controls right I believe that's a swiping thing
0:05:15I think it actually turns. I don't know most of B&O's headphones
0:05:18They have like like touch panel controls
0:05:21Which frankly I I've tried I've heard a bunch of people keep asking me about whether I've tried the H95s and and B&O
0:05:27Made a wonderful wired headphone the h6 second gen was one of my favorite wired headphones ever
0:05:34but I have tried almost all of their Bluetooth models up to about two years ago and
0:05:40They were all garbage to me like and I couldn't believe that the company that made that amazing wired h6 second gen
0:05:47Could then never follow it up with anything that sounded nearly as good as it in their wireless segment
0:05:54And they've always had really finicky controls
0:05:57However, I think they they have more premium materials than what Apple's going for
0:06:04I think they are by some tastes including mine. I think more attractive than than the AirPods max
0:06:10But you know like I see what they're going for
0:06:13But as far as I know they have not yet made a great sounding wireless headphone
0:06:17But I have not yet tried this model
0:06:19But honestly they burned so much credibility with me over the years that I I would not
0:06:24Drop $800 to buy this even if I thought I could easily return it
0:06:28I mean that's kind of the bangin' all some thing is they're always going to be
0:06:31Overpriced for what you get like that's their whole brand in fact if they weren't it would be damaging to their brand to be reasonably
0:06:37priced you know
0:06:38No, except the h6 the h6 second gen was like I think 250 or 300 and it sounded like it
0:06:43It was great, and it was light and comfortable, and it was just an amazing headphone
0:06:47That's why they had to get rid of it. It was damaging to their brand. Yeah, it was too. It was too good
0:06:51I just double-checked on these ones. They do actually have a physically turning dial
0:06:56I'm not sure I'm used to use but like the reason I bring them up is just because they look so much like the AirPods and
0:07:01because bangin' all of a sudden being I
0:07:03Don't know more experienced more more practically minded than Apple which sounds strange for a company
0:07:09That is known for its impractical looking you know electronics having a compact folding headphone with a hard case
0:07:16That comes with the accessories you would expect in an $800 headphone
0:07:20So I feel like Apple really needs to learn something if they want to play in this space
0:07:24It's okay to include the cable and not make you pay 35 bucks for it
0:07:28It's even okay to make a hard case and an adapter for airplanes. It's fine. It doesn't diminish your brand to do that
0:07:34We are sponsored this week by Mack Weldon one of my favorite clothing brands and the only one that I wear every single day
0:07:43When it comes to holiday gifting especially for men it's hard to necessarily know what to get people
0:07:50But thanks to Mack Weldon
0:07:51It's super easy and simple to find something great whether it's Mack Weldon's warm knit tops or undershirts or Sunday lounge pants
0:07:58They have men's basics that are guaranteed to keep all the men in your holiday list comfortable. I
0:08:04Personally love their clothing every single day. I wear a pair of their silver lined underwear. Not only is it really well made
0:08:11It's comfortable and the silver fibers make it so it's pretty much impossible for it to ever stink
0:08:16I also love their silver lined shirts their t-shirts
0:08:20I absolutely love the silver line of those as mentioned in the intro the warm knit shirts
0:08:24These are basically like waffle knit long sleeve shirts
0:08:27I love the warm knit shirts. I wear them all winter long. I love their stuff. It's cozy
0:08:33It's well made and they have stuff for all seasons that I love
0:08:36You know the summertime that silver line is fantastic the wintertime that waffle line is fantastic their tech cashmere stuff is really nice
0:08:43Socks shirts hoodies underwear polos. They have comfort consistent fit and easy shopping. It looks great
0:08:50It feels great and this stuff lasts
0:08:52It's a wide range of fabrics you can pick from from fitness stuff to cozy stuff
0:08:57They also have this wonderful free automatic loyalty program called weld and blue level one gets you free shipping for life
0:09:04Once you spend $200 you hit level two and you get 20% off all your orders for the next year
0:09:09And they have a guarantee they want you to be comfortable
0:09:11So if you don't like your first pair of underwear, you can keep them and they'll still refund you
0:09:15No questions asked win the gift-giving season this year and get 20% off your first order at Mac welding comm
0:09:22Slash ATP podcast and by entering ATP podcast as the promo code at checkout
0:09:27So once again Mac welding comm slash ATP podcast promo code ATP podcast for 20% off
0:09:33Mac welding reinventing men's basics
0:09:36The AirPods max button can cycle between three states one of which is off which is selectable in Bluetooth preferences
0:09:47wait, which are we talking about the
0:09:49The digital crown button or so the the the other button there has been confusion about this Marco
0:09:56We'll be able to clarify but here I'll lay out the confusion then you're you will give us
0:10:00Definitive clarity in the review section which is coming. Don't worry everyone
0:10:03so the confusion about the AirPods max and
0:10:06Battery life last time was like oh do you have to put them in that stupid case to make them to go to sleep?
0:10:11If you don't do that, they'll be on all the time and we're like, but why would they be on all the time?
0:10:14They have a million sensors. They can tell when you're wearing them. Wouldn't they go off?
0:10:17Matt pans Reno said that they fall asleep. We read that in the last episode his tweet about that
0:10:22But if you take them off they do, you know
0:10:24Go to sleep or going through an off mode or other people like no it's gonna drain your battery, right?
0:10:27so this was a twist on this as the reviews are coming out that the button on the top the one that normally toggles between
0:10:33transparency and
0:10:35Noise cancelling there's a preference in Bluetooth settings and I think you can get to it through a control center as well
0:10:41Well, you can change that to cycle through three things
0:10:44It would press it once and it goes to transparency precedent getting those noise cancelling press the third time and it goes to a setting
0:10:49Called off, right? So it's like, okay
0:10:51Well, I guess you don't have to use the case for that because it goes to a setting called off
0:10:54But that doesn't mean off as in the headphones are off
0:10:58All it means is that it's not transparency and not noise cancelling at least that's what we know so far
0:11:03So yes, it's just like the AirPods Pro. Yeah, which is exactly it's the same
0:11:08It's the AirPods Pro feature set now
0:11:10All that being said people are still freaking out about the idea that you can't turn them off
0:11:13And so I mean, I'm not sure how long have you had these Marco a couple days a couple hours?
0:11:17Oh, well, maybe you can't tell us about the battery life things
0:11:20But I will just add now that everyone who's had them for a little bit longer has said
0:11:23If you're freaking out about the idea that you can't turn these things off
0:11:27Don't worry because if you wore them all day long and played music really loud all day, they would still last all day
0:11:32So it's more of an academic concern than a real one
0:11:35I would say that fairly definitively at this point if you get these and never want to use that stupid case
0:11:42You'll probably be fine until I mean
0:11:45Maybe the batteries go off a cliff in two years and they get they start getting terrible battery life
0:11:48You have to replace the battery. But anyway, there's that and then panzer chimed in again about this thing
0:11:53This is a bonus tweets. There are several states. Obviously they pause right away then a few seconds later
0:11:58They shut down the connection. They just they aren't just on forever when you take them off. All right real-time follow-up
0:12:05That bug about SMS is not being received properly. I just got a like three hour late group MMS
0:12:10So it's happening to me too. I'm over it Apple over it. So over it
0:12:15Okay
0:12:16So Marco last we heard our intrepid hero was about to make his walk of shame with his extremely large computer
0:12:23presumably in your bespoke carrying case
0:12:25What's going on with your setup? You've been talking about the LG 5k your favorite monitor of all time
0:12:31Can you update us on what the world is what the world is going on here?
0:12:35so
0:12:36Yeah, my I brought my iMac Pro into the Apple Store. I I brought it in my giant case on top of the dolly
0:12:43I bought for it. So I wheeled this
0:12:45I'm amazed they let me in the door
0:12:49But but yeah
0:12:53They were very nice
0:12:54It's the stores in limited operation because of quarantine and so they just had like a few Genius Bar stations
0:13:00Spread across like the front right as you walk in after the whole rest of the store shut down
0:13:03So it's it's kind of a minimal operation, but they handled everything really well
0:13:07They first said oh that sounds like it might be software ran a little diagnostic
0:13:11But then the lead genius
0:13:13Oversaw was like hey, you know, but this might be some other kind of weird thing. Let's take it in
0:13:18So they I don't know do they use the term admitted it like in a hospital like they whatever it is
0:13:23They they took it. They took it like, you know for a few days
0:13:26And then have and then have called to say that it indeed failed some kind of firmware level
0:13:31test so they could rule out software whatever that means and and they
0:13:37have determined that it needs a new logic board and
0:13:40Parts for that are a little slow right now. It seems the logic board could be 14 days out. Holy smokes
0:13:48So so here I am as my temporary solution, which I knew I would have to use this for a little while
0:13:54and this is part of the reason why I did this around Christmas because
0:13:58We you know, we don't really do much for Christmas week. So I don't have like heavy computing needs
0:14:04So I knew this would be a good time to not be with my main computer
0:14:08But in the meantime, I have this
0:14:12ultra fine
0:14:14LG 5k monitor plugged into my quite wonderful and pleasant new m1 MacBook Air and
0:14:22I have it in clamshell mode. I'm not using both screens
0:14:25I'm only using the LG the air is closed and on top of a speaker over there with two cables plugged into it
0:14:31because
0:14:33the ultra fine
0:14:35LG monitor is
0:14:37Just so bad
0:14:39Like it, you know as a screen it's fine
0:14:43It is one of the only screens that has ever existed and I believe the only one currently for sale
0:14:51that is
0:14:535k resolution at 27 inches
0:14:55As far as I can tell there are no other ones. There's there's one by a planar which
0:15:00It gets even worse reviews and use a DisplayPort instead
0:15:04And it seems to be out of production or at least in very low production
0:15:08And then there's this one and that's that's it. All the piece people are like, oh just there's a million 27 inch monitors
0:15:14Yeah, they're all 4k because that's what gamers want
0:15:17That's what Windows users want and none of them buy Macs and Mac people don't buy them
0:15:21And so it's a whole different world and that doesn't cover this and the DPI is wrong and screen
0:15:25Elements would be all the wrong sizes and everything. So I'm not interested in any of those
0:15:28Oh, can we let me just interrupt you real quick because I can hear the typing of this news
0:15:33Saying to you what is wrong with you get one of the 97 inch curved displays or one of those god-awful things that I?
0:15:41Don't want to speak for you Marco, but as a fellow old man, I probably can I don't want a curved display
0:15:47I don't want a 30 some inch display. I want something that's like my iMac
0:15:52Well, I mean I have my iMac me know in this hypothetical. I want something that's like my iMac that's nice and flat and
0:15:58Rectangular and 5k now I could alternatively and this is what I did at my jobby job. I could get smaller
0:16:054k monitors, but in my personal opinion
0:16:08You need to be at 5k if you're gonna be at 27 or more inches
0:16:13That's just my opinion, but that's the way I like it
0:16:15And I think I speak for you in saying that I have zero interest in one of these
0:16:1996 inch curved displays none do not care. I know people love them
0:16:23They are not for me do not want please do not write us because we know they exist we do not want well
0:16:28I mean two things number one like those are almost always not high DPI
0:16:32So if you're what you're going for is like the retina look for max
0:16:35They usually don't have the density to do that. But number two, this is very much not just your opinion
0:16:41There's a range of DPI that monitors can have where think where screen elements on max will look
0:16:48Like they're in roughly the right size range like how many pixels does it take to or like how many square inches?
0:16:54Does you know a thing of this size take up? That's like a that's in a fixed range
0:16:59So we have these these ranges of like what's a correct resolution for 27 inches
0:17:04and the answer is either 2560 by something which is 1x and non retina or
0:17:1051 20 by something which is 2x retina and
0:17:14No one makes 3x and in this range yet, interestingly Dell makes an 8k monitor
0:17:19But it's actually too high density to be 2x but too low to be 3x
0:17:248k and like it's like 32 inches
0:17:28I think and 8k at 2x would have to be about 40 inches to have the right DPI range
0:17:33But anyway, so and there aren't you're right. There are some
0:17:384k monitors that are in the right DPI range which at 4k is roughly 22 to 24 inches
0:17:43There are some of those that exist but not a lot even of that and one of them is the LG ultrafine 4k
0:17:49Anyway, so the the LG man
0:17:54I haven't used this monitor full-time in in a number of years and I've forgotten like how
0:18:00mediocre it is like to me the the two biggest problems are
0:18:05The stand is total garbage that it's very it's very wobbly like
0:18:09Talk about like typing on your keyboard and having your monitor wobble. This is way worse
0:18:13It's it's a terrible stand for wobble way worse than like an iMac
0:18:17Even on the same desk with the same keyboard and the same person banging on the keys
0:18:22Also, it has the you know, like most PC monitor mounts. It has a 360 degree rotating thing
0:18:28So you could rotate the monitor to portrait orientation or landscape if you want
0:18:31But it doesn't like latch in very well to those even 90 degree rotations
0:18:38So the most common thing of having it just regular in portrait orientation
0:18:42It's really hard to get it exactly level
0:18:45like it's it feels like it's slightly off all the time and you can like move it slightly and it stays like it's it's
0:18:50It's a crappy cheap stand and the monitor is wrapped in a crappy cheap enclosure with a crappy cheap backlight
0:18:57And there's tons of backlight leakage around the bottom edge
0:18:59and so if you have like a very dark screen in a very dark room
0:19:02You can see the bottom edge kind of glowing a little bit and it looks like gray instead of black
0:19:06So yeah backlight leakage, but besides the stand the other major problem with this monitor is
0:19:12That the USB ports that are on it. You basically can't use for anything that matters because they are unreliable
0:19:19Extremely extremely unreliable and you can't use them for things like audio or keyboards
0:19:25I'm not even sure what you can use them for I guess like charging your phone
0:19:29You can use it for that but that's about all you can do reliably on those on those USB ports
0:19:33so I
0:19:35Have ordered the Cal digit Thunderbolt dock because it has by far seemingly the best reviews for Thunderbolt docks
0:19:42because I'm relying now on
0:19:46It while that gets here, which isn't here yet. I'm relying on my USB C hubs that I have
0:19:52I have two USB C hubs one
0:19:54I've never talked about because it's weird and boring and doesn't seem to exist anymore
0:19:57and the other one is is like, you know, the one of those that everybody has for their laptops that has like the ethernet and the
0:20:03two USB a and the card reader
0:20:05You know an HDMI like that thing the thing that everybody has it cost about 50 bucks
0:20:08Like I saw I have one of those and this other weird thing that has USB C upstream ports
0:20:12But they're both unreliable in different ways and I at one point to get everything working
0:20:18I had to daisy chain them both which is not a good idea and I had to then
0:20:24The second one didn't have enough power to to power USB devices off of it. So I had to use its
0:20:31Input port to like to plug in a separate USB C power adapter
0:20:36So now I have this big like square of power routing and I'm like this there's no way this is going to work
0:20:42And it actually kind of did for a while, but it caused weird
0:20:45Noises and things not even just ground loops like weird other electrical noises in various things. I'm like, alright
0:20:51I can't I can't be running an audio business and have all these all this noise everywhere
0:20:55But anyway, this is a just an unreliable setup and what I ultimately want I am so far temporarily
0:21:04Okay with having the laptop as my primary computer put into a monitor. It's not ideal
0:21:10I would rather have a desktop
0:21:12But right now you can't get the new m1 Mac mini in any reasonable amount of time if you want 16 gigs of RAM
0:21:18I still ultimately want more
0:21:20Gigs of RAM than that and more disk space than two terabytes
0:21:24For my desktop solutions here
0:21:26So so ultimately I think I am going to wait for an iMac or a higher spec Mac mini or a Mac Pro before I totally
0:21:33replace this desktop, but in the meantime using it temporarily as
0:21:36You know MacBook Plus monitor. It seems to be fine so far
0:21:41I haven't ran into any major issues that have to do with like the laptop interfacing with this crappy display
0:21:48The only issues I've had have been with peripherals and you know
0:21:51Just getting getting all these terrible ports to work reliably
0:21:54and the only thing that I think is gonna fix that is if the Cal digit thunderbolt thing is
0:21:58Of the quality that everyone seems to think it is and say it is
0:22:02then I will plug the laptop directly into that and then plug everything else into that and
0:22:09Not even use the monitors ports or any of these terrible USB C hubs that I have at all
0:22:15and that should
0:22:17Theoretically fix my problems if it works
0:22:20now I
0:22:23Was tempted instead of ordering the Cal digit thing on Amazon and having it take almost a week to get here because Island
0:22:29I was tempted to Island slash COVID slash Christmas, by the way
0:22:34I was tempted to
0:22:37Just set money on fire and just go to the damn Apple store and get the XDR and the Apple store also sells the Cal digit
0:22:45So I was I was looking like hey what stores have this in stock tomorrow and what's the boat schedule that could possibly get me
0:22:52there with enough time to get back before the last boat and I was looking into all this stuff and
0:22:58looking into you know, what
0:23:01What does the XDR seem like in practice and what is the 5k seem like at the LG 5k?
0:23:06you know seem like in practice and do I really
0:23:09want to be looking at like
0:23:11I'm a professional. I
0:23:13Like I am an Apple commentator and a professional developer. I am 38 years old. God damn it
0:23:20Do I want to be looking at this screen that I hate every day?
0:23:23Or do I want to get the screen that I like and look at that every day?
0:23:27Like what am I working for? If I'm why do I why do I like Apple products?
0:23:33Why do I want something terrible and ugly and that that has all these problems if I can get something great
0:23:39I love this glimpse inside your internal monologue that leads you to buy expensive things
0:23:43This is the devil that's on all of our shoulders. It looks just like Marco and it sounds like that. Yeah, exactly
0:23:49Mm-hmm. So I I looked but
0:23:52ultimately, like I basically like, you know made made a pro and con list between the XDR and the LG 5k and it's it's not as
0:24:00clear-cut as
0:24:02I would hope you know the XDR has some things about it that are
0:24:06Significant downsides to me and you know, the price is the biggest downside
0:24:12I mean, you know the configuration I want would be six thousand dollars plus five hundred dollars for Apple care plus tax
0:24:18So just just under seven thousand dollars. Oh
0:24:20Yeah, I have a very hard time
0:24:23Justifying that for what it is and for what I need
0:24:28Because I don't need the HDR side of it. I don't need that at all. I
0:24:33Really don't like that. It has a fan. I know John
0:24:37I know you said that you never hear it in practice and you're probably right but
0:24:43Really dislike that it has a fan at all because for something that's that expensive that I would hope would be so long lasting
0:24:48And so long-lived
0:24:50Having a fan is a warning sign for me. It's that like I don't love that
0:24:54There also is like practical downsides. Like I couldn't do my one cable solution with that because
0:25:006k takes up so much bandwidth over the thunderbolt 3 connection that there's not enough speed left
0:25:08I'm not like, you know, I know there's like the weird display compression thing
0:25:10But there's not much bandwidth left for those ports on it
0:25:14That's why the ports are not Thunderbolt their USB and they're in many configurations USB 2 speeds that a USB 3 speeds and
0:25:21You can't plug the 6k into Thunderbolt docks or Thunderbolt base stations or whatever
0:25:26They're called like the Cal digit
0:25:28You have to plug it directly into the computer at least as far as far as I know
0:25:31It seems like no Thunderbolt dock supports it. So
0:25:34That now there's two cables instead of one going to the laptop and two cables
0:25:38I have to keep plugging and unplugging every day as I take my laptop upstairs and then bring it back downstairs like so
0:25:42so there's it's just it adds a lot of downsides and I also I
0:25:46don't like the
0:25:48backlighting method of having those
0:25:51576 LEDs that can all be individually controlled
0:25:55Because that creates the potential for non-uniformity
0:25:58In the backlighting that creates the potential for like those halos where you have
0:26:03Something bright in the middle of a bunch of dark and you have like a big halo blob around it
0:26:07I to me that's incredibly inelegant. I don't like when TV started doing that. I don't like Apple doing it
0:26:14I'm not looking forward to the rumored micro LED screens that are coming in their higher-end products
0:26:18I guess next year or sometime because they that's probably the exact same thing. I don't like that to me. That's an elegant
0:26:25I I would rather have
0:26:26every pixel be
0:26:28Individually controlled and into and totally independent and totally consistent and uniform with every other pixel no matter what they are showing
0:26:34I don't like display technologies that rely on hacks like that
0:26:37And I know why they do it to get their XDR, you know dynamic range
0:26:41I know that but I don't like that and I don't want that I want
0:26:45Uniformity and elegance across the entire display panel and I don't have that with the XDR it comes close
0:26:52But there's that there's that giant asterisk on that and I don't like that
0:26:55If you're worried about it from an elegance perspective like that's your prerogative
0:27:00But I can tell you that at non when you're not showing HDR video
0:27:05You will never see like that's that does not manifest if I just told you all the backlights on 100% all the time
0:27:11You would have to believe it because there's nothing you can see on the screen with your eyes without like an electric
0:27:16Instrument to show the dynamic backlighting now if you put it in HDR mode and show a starfield
0:27:22There are black background with a white square moving across it
0:27:25Maybe then you can pick it up, but even then you know, it's it's hard to say but for regular like desktop computer mode
0:27:31Which is the only way you're gonna use it because you're not doing HDR video. You can't see any bloom
0:27:35You can't see any hell for in fact for all I know
0:27:37When in this 500 inch mode the backlight is on 100% all the time. I don't even know
0:27:41I just I can tell you that you don't see the hello
0:27:44So I know that sounds gross to you and you could worry about the you know
0:27:48Electronic sophistication that causes that to happen, but I'm gonna say in practice in regular 500 and it I'm using my thing as a Mac mode
0:27:54It is a non-issue visually speaking. All right, that's that's good to know. I
0:27:58So you've never noticed that ever no
0:28:01I don't think I even even in the so when you see the thing where people do like when they do reviews of dynamic backlight
0:28:06Television sets and they do them in HDR mode to show this exact effect. Like hey, it's a black background with some white text
0:28:12I'm going to show you the haloing even when they do that for televisions which exhibit this much more
0:28:17They have to adjust the exposure on the camera because with the naked eye is actually a little bit tricky to see
0:28:24I don't you know, I I do very little HDR with this as well
0:28:28I play destiny in HDR occasionally and I have some HDR videos that I watch but none of them really show off the haloing
0:28:33But I'm absolutely sure I could see it if I give it the worst case scenario of a 100% white square moving across a black
0:28:39screen in HDR
0:28:40But in any other mode and I'm staring at my screen right now
0:28:43Like there's black against white all over the place and I cannot see any bloom whatsoever. So yeah, it is
0:28:50I don't like it either. I would never buy it in my television set
0:28:53But I didn't worry about it for this monitor because it monitor levels. It just doesn't show up
0:28:58All right. I that's that's good to know and that that will probably factor into whatever I decide to do
0:29:04But I mean you and you'll find out when if these mini LED things come out like eventually you're just gonna get one no matter
0:29:10What like but you won't have a choice right and then you'll see that it's like well for non HDR applications
0:29:16Where nothing is really that bright. It's it's fine
0:29:18Yeah, I hope so because I it's just it's so inelegant of a solution like it's just it's not yeah
0:29:23Well, we don't have all we don't have OLED computer monitors yet
0:29:26So that's that's really what you want is individually little pixels with also high contrast, right? Right? Yeah, exactly
0:29:31Yeah, so anyway, so I've decided based on my these concerns and these in elegances for me
0:29:38I'm not gonna get the XDR for now
0:29:40I'm gonna stick with the stupid LG as long as it continues to work asterisk
0:29:44But I just have to not use the LG's built-in ports and hope that it works
0:29:50Well through this Cal digit thing that's on the way and if it doesn't then I'll reevaluate and I'm I'm not excited at all about the LG
0:29:57For long-term use I'm intending it now to be just a bridge between now and either
0:30:04when I decide to switch back to my iMac Pro
0:30:06Which I might do whenever it comes back or if I decide not to switch back to it
0:30:10If I if I get too hooked on the m1 lifestyle
0:30:12Then this will just be a temporary thing until I figure out what my nest what my next desktop will be
0:30:18and then we'll see what happens but if the LG like
0:30:22If the LG breaks or if something like if something goes wrong with it that I haven't hit yet in the last few days that I've been
0:30:29using it so far I
0:30:31Would not replace it like I can't bring myself as much as I have a hard time spending seven thousand dollars
0:30:376k I could not bring myself to buy another one of these
0:30:41Geez
0:30:43So
0:30:44It's it's here temporarily, but I don't anticipate this being a permanent solution
0:30:48You know, I understand that you're trying to stay within a seven thousand dollar budget and I'm happy to tell you that on Craigslist
0:30:57Here in Richmond, you can get a 2011 Chevrolet Cruze at CarMax here in Richmond. You can get a 2012 Fiat 500 pop
0:31:06There are all sorts of automobile options that you can. Oh, actually here's a seven thousand dollar 2005 Jeep Grand Cherokee
0:31:12I've always hit so far of all the cars you'd named but still rather have that monitor. Can you find a decent car? Yeah
0:31:16All you can finally give you could finally get your dream car for six thousand nine hundred ninety five dollars in
0:31:251997 Jeep Wrangler. Oh great. I bet that sounds reliable and comfortable. Mm-hmm. Totally elegant - yeah
0:31:33You could drive on the beach remember? Yeah. Yeah with the permit. I don't have that. I will never get
0:31:39Hear it's a lot of money and but golly I
0:31:42If that LG breaks, you should just get a 4k monitor and use it
0:31:46Like you'll survive you'll survive with limited screen space for a while
0:31:48I agree that in you know, truth be told I know that you don't particularly do the to monitor thing
0:31:54But at my job job, I had to I think they were
0:31:58LG if I remember correctly - LG 4k monitors that were like 22 inches something like that and
0:32:04Truth be told like if you can get over the fact that you have two monitors on your desk
0:32:08Which for me isn't a big deal. It actually was really really nice
0:32:11they were both retina for all intents and purposes and you know when you have two of them you get a
0:32:16Roughly equivalent amount of real estate as a 27 inch 5k certainly in a perfect world
0:32:21I prefer a 27 inch 5k, but if you don't want to set
0:32:26Dollars aflame you can do this for like 500 bucks or something like that now
0:32:30I'm sure you'll hate them for some reason or another but I mean it's another option
0:32:33Yeah
0:32:33I mean
0:32:33I mean the price difference is so vast like it is kind of funny to think that I could I could get like six of
0:32:38these LG's for the
0:32:40Know you six times as much maybe you could daisy chain all the USB things together to get enough power
0:32:47That's funny
0:32:52Alright, so one last piece of follow-up an anonymous Apple genius writes when taking a product into Apple to be serviced
0:32:57Please just ask them to run in the full service diagnostic suite available to all Genius Bar technicians for this particular issue
0:33:04We do have a cooling diagnostic that will assist with with determining the amount of spider eggs in the iMac Pro
0:33:09The other two recommended diagnostics are FSD EFI and FSD OS
0:33:14I'm assuming full service diagnostics for the EFI which is what does that actually stand for? It's the BIOS, right?
0:33:20But what does it actually stand for?
0:33:22It's something firmware interface enhanced firmware interface
0:33:27I've forgotten right and then whatever the OS I presume that's like a software thing as we are technicians
0:33:32We do rely on diagnostic tests to advise how we proceed and have troubleshooting guides made available by Apple engineering on personal note
0:33:39I'm sorry for your previous experiences and that have caused you to audibly groan at the thought of having to come see us
0:33:44but I can assure you there are a number of us who are fans and supporters of the tech media slash influencers in your audience and
0:33:51This individual said they they bought the ATP T with wheels
0:33:54Which means they are the right kind of person and this person additionally says
0:33:58Suggest that we do find it discouraging that the geniuses do find it discouraging to hear those we admire thinks a little of us
0:34:04First of all real-time follow-up somebody added I think John it's extensible firmware interface. So thank you for that John second
0:34:10Well, I assumed your groaning was not about going to see an Apple genius necessarily
0:34:14But just about the fact they have to carry this stupid 27 inch computer on a boat to an Apple store
0:34:19But correct me if I'm wrong. Yeah, like for me like the reason why I don't like bringing in my my desktops for repair
0:34:25Has almost nothing to do with the people I'm gonna be interacting with I've had almost entirely positive experiences there
0:34:31it's it's all about just the logistics of getting it there and
0:34:34then the inconvenience of being without it for all the time in the meantime and
0:34:39then if I get it back and it's been you know wiped out because you know either because they
0:34:46Restored it themselves or because they had to replace something that caused data loss like replacing the SSDs or their t2 or whatever
0:34:52Which I think is gonna happen if they're replacing logic board
0:34:54I assume then I assume that the t2 modules go with it and because of the encryption keys and everything
0:35:00So I assume I'm gonna have an empty Mac on the way home
0:35:02So that that's going to mean like not only did I have to bring it there which is an ordeal
0:35:07Bring it home from there, which is an ordeal
0:35:09but then also I'm without it for probably two weeks at least and
0:35:15When I get it back, I have to restore from everything and deal with all the you know
0:35:19Little tiny nitpicks and paper cuts that come along with having restored a computer
0:35:23So you have to do it which takes a lot of time and then all the things that didn't have like that stored things in
0:35:29Ways that don't that don't doesn't restore properly or like whatever all that I have to deal with for the next weeks after that
0:35:35So it's just it's just a big ordeal
0:35:37for my primary computer and
0:35:39And I'm not looking forward to to doing all that and it's you know
0:35:44it sucks like I depend on these computers and part of the reason why I
0:35:47buy things like the Mac Pro and the iMac Pro is that they tend to be pretty reliable over time and
0:35:53That decreases the chances that I need to do this
0:35:56another another part of the reason why I don't keep computers for like five six years usually is
0:36:01That I want to get rid of them before they need service
0:36:05So I don't have to deal with this because this I'm running businesses here. I can't afford tons of downtime and
0:36:12It's just it's very costly to to have to deal with all this crap
0:36:15So I want to minimize the time that to deal with it
0:36:17So it's nothing to do with the Apple people who are largely great
0:36:21And everything to do with just the hassle of doing all this finally
0:36:25I wanted to clarify a number of people have written in to tell me that they have some kind of you know business
0:36:31service or Apple care service where they will send a technician to your house to pick up your desktop and take it away and service
0:36:37it and bring it back to you and
0:36:39while that sounds fantastic, maybe that only eliminates some of these problems and
0:36:45I guarantee you they don't serve where I live
0:36:48These places once once the steps to get here include get on a boat
0:36:53I think that's where their service contract with Apple ends and I think that's that's when they say sorry. We can't serve your area
0:37:01We are sponsored this week by flat file
0:37:05You've experienced data onboarding but probably haven't heard that term think back to when you needed a CSV
0:37:11Template to import data online or that one time you had to email an Excel file
0:37:16It might have had sensitive data in it
0:37:18There are problems inherent with data onboarding companies spent exorbitant amounts of money trying to fix it usually with
0:37:24implementation and services teams luckily our friends at flat file are solving data onboarding for companies of all sizes
0:37:32They've just interviewed over a hundred companies and compiled a 2020 state of data onboarding report that quantifies this hidden business
0:37:40cost not surprisingly
0:37:4296% of their respondents ran into problems when importing data
0:37:4623% said it takes weeks or months to migrate customer data
0:37:50So while you may not have heard of data onboarding chances are you or someone you know has experienced it
0:37:57Want to check out the full report on data onboarding check out flat file dot IO
0:38:02Once again to see their report for 2020 state of data onboarding go to flat file dot IO
0:38:08Thank you to flat file for sponsoring our show
0:38:10Speaking of new toys in this case toys, you've actually bought tell me about your new fancy-pants headphones. Are they your favorites?
0:38:21They're significantly better than I expected. Oh
0:38:26Oh
0:38:26Well, look at now you're gonna make me spend a whole pile of money
0:38:29I don't want to spend so maybe I shouldn't ask you for details. Well, maybe not. So, alright, so here we are
0:38:34I got my AirPods max. I've had him for about half a day and
0:38:38So I can't give any useful information on
0:38:41battery life or
0:38:44Obviously travel or anything like that
0:38:46But I can't tell you how they sound and I was comparing them all day listening to different music and comparing them to every pair of
0:38:54Headphones I have in this house
0:38:56and so I
0:38:58Have a number of opinions on comfort and sound and control and things like that
0:39:02So just a very quick
0:39:04Terms, I'm gonna be using a lot in this. I assume everyone's familiar with the concepts of bass and treble
0:39:08I'm also gonna be talking with a mid-range a lot
0:39:11The mid-range is what's between bass and treble if you ever played with the mid-range control or the middle part of an EQ
0:39:17You you know, it kind of boosts like vocals and the kind of like middle
0:39:22range of the frequencies
0:39:25You know, it's vocals electric guitars some instruments like pianos kind of like live in that range
0:39:30So that's what I'm talking about here. And then finally I'm gonna be talking about the soundstage
0:39:35Which is an audio term for like how wide it sounds like the music is coming from
0:39:42Or like how big of a room it sounds like you're in. So anyway moving on to the actual information here
0:39:49the first thing you notice besides the the comical packaging and case and oh
0:39:54My god the case it it's as bad as you think it's as awkward and clumsy to get them in and out as you think
0:40:01it
0:40:03It would not surprise me if a number of the people who buy these who aren't nerds and don't follow their reviews
0:40:10Mistake it for packaging and throw it away when they throw it with a box
0:40:13It reminds me of the case on the original iPad. Do you remember that one?
0:40:16They have like yeah, this pointy little seams and was made of that same cheap material. I had it. It was terrible
0:40:22Remember they use leftover iPad one cases to make this case
0:40:25Oh God
0:40:26like the best the best thing I saw in one of the reviews is that
0:40:28When it's in the case like they have a little notch cut out so you can see the lightning thing like through that little slot
0:40:34The little slits that are at the bottom and explicable slits to allow scratches to get in
0:40:38I don't know they made they made they didn't even line the slits up with the lightning thing
0:40:42So they had to put a notch in the slit but the notch doesn't always line up exactly
0:40:46With the lightning port that is supposed to be on it. Just you know
0:40:50It's just shoddy all around just doesn't like ill-fitting like I was like an ill-fitting suit
0:40:55Yeah, everything about the case is as bad as you think it might be. It's it's a shame. It really is because
0:41:01It really puts a damper on this product in a pretty big way if it is indeed intended to be like
0:41:08Traveled with in any capacity whether it's even even if it's just like, you know to and from work or something like it's just it's not
0:41:14the case is
0:41:17Hilariously awkward and bad. It's but it's ineffective as a case. It's
0:41:21Annoying to get them in and out like it's it's not good. So anyway
0:41:25You know, we talked a lot about the weight and everyone was kind of worried the weight
0:41:29I actually don't think is that big of a problem for me in practice now granted
0:41:33These are not my heaviest headphones like my big planners are like 500 grams
0:41:39So so these at 350 or whatever is less than that
0:41:42But they certainly are heavier than than most headphones that people be comparing them to things like the the common
0:41:49noise cancelling headphones for planes
0:41:51Most portable headphones for like portable music walking around and in fashionable ways and fashionable cities for fashionable people
0:41:58They're they're generally heavier than those but I didn't really notice the way as being a problem
0:42:04Comfort wise they do have a bit more
0:42:08Clamping force like how hard they squeeze your head
0:42:12Then I would like and part of that is just necessary because of the weight. I wish that was a little bit nicer
0:42:17The ear cups themselves leave a lot of room for your ear like compared to other headphones in this category
0:42:25So other, you know small fashionable portable over ears
0:42:28Not compared to like giant, you know
0:42:30The flagship headphones from the big brands that now have all these like nice kind of raindrop shaped ear cups compared to those
0:42:35They're still small but compared to their category of like portable ish trendy looking headphones. They do have surprisingly deep and roomy ear cups
0:42:43significantly nicer ear cups or at least more spacious ear cups than the
0:42:48the Sony's and the Bose's that people will be comparing them to and that I will be in a minute the downside for the comfort for
0:42:53Me is that the ear pads themselves are not super comfortable pads
0:42:59now some of this ear pads do break in a little bit over time and
0:43:04Headbands do kind of stretch and loosen a little bit over time
0:43:08So this the comfort might improve over time
0:43:10But I think the major theme is gonna say the same here
0:43:13Which is that it's a little bit heavier and that therefore causes a bit more clamping force on your head and the ear pads are
0:43:18Not that soft and they're not that they don't spread the weight over a very thick
0:43:23Rim, if that makes sense
0:43:26What makes super comfortable headphones super comfortable is like you can imagine the opposite you can imagine if like the ear pads
0:43:33Formed little like triangle ridges that just ringed your ear with the thinnest thing possible
0:43:38like a like a piece of cardboard that would like that would be uncomfortable because it would be
0:43:42putting all the weight of them on a very tiny little circle around your ears and
0:43:46Then the opposite would be like some like giant thick rim
0:43:50You know looks like a fat tire kind of you know
0:43:52That kind of pad that puts a huge surface area against your head so it spreads the weight out
0:43:57The air pods max are too close to the former that they don't have a wide enough ear pad rim
0:44:03To distribute the weight evenly and so it ends up being uncomfortable
0:44:07Primarily because of that because of the ear pads themselves and the ear pad
0:44:13Covering material, you know on most headphones. It's either real or fake leather some kind of you know vinyl or you know
0:44:19Something like that
0:44:20The ear pad covers here are this kind of almost rough fabric. That's almost itchy
0:44:26It's not particularly comfortable and I would not I would never describe it as luxurious
0:44:32So if what they're going for is luxury materials
0:44:35I think they've achieved the look but not the feel like it does not feel
0:44:40Luxurious at all and there are other competitors, you know bang and all of a sudden we mentioned earlier
0:44:45And even the other noise cancelling with the Bose and Sony noise cancelling models have way nicer feeling ear pads
0:44:51Than these and I think if Apple chooses to they could dramatically improve the comfort of the AirPods max
0:44:59With just different ear pads and and they're they're replaceable
0:45:02I do they're magnetic you pop them off in two seconds and put new ones on so they could actually
0:45:06Replace like really revised ear pads for these down the road that could fit this
0:45:12I don't know if they will
0:45:13But they could and I think they should because that could dramatically improve comfort with a few design tweaks and maybe materials changes on the ear
0:45:19pads
0:45:20moving on to sound
0:45:22The AirPods max is a headphone that is not afraid of treble
0:45:29Now this is kind of a divide in the headphone world whether you want to hear treble response and treble detail
0:45:36Or whether you don't whether you want it to be like, you know, quote rolled off treble sounds crisp and and and sharp
0:45:44But it can be a little bit fatiguing for some people
0:45:46The the rolled off reduced treble sound is very popular among high-end headphones because it sounds like warm
0:45:53You know, it's a very, you know old radio voice warm here, but kind of not a lot of detail, you know
0:46:00And the treble is like yeah right in your face, you know
0:46:02so
0:46:04This has kind of been a split in headphone tuning for a while
0:46:07The max likes treble it gives you a lot of it
0:46:12This is you know, if you're if you like bare dynamic headphones or hi-fi man headphones
0:46:17This is for you. If you like the you know, Sennheiser or auto Z sound this is probably not for you
0:46:24Fortunately, I'm in the trouble lovers group. I was gonna say I'm surprised you're you're going on about this because this sounds like it's made for
0:46:32You then? Yeah, it's for me. It's great for almost any other headphone in this category
0:46:36This is gonna sound like too much trouble
0:46:38But if you've heard if you've heard headphones with good well done treble response like my beloved hd6
0:46:45It sounds you know, right in line
0:46:47It's also it's closer in line to what you get from like quote fun headphones
0:46:53I'll get to it in a minute because what that involves basically is a sound that is not
0:47:00Trying to be completely flat frequency response
0:47:03But it's aiming for something that is just a little bit more pleasing
0:47:05Imagine if you had a bass and treble dial imagine if you turned up the bass and the treble each a little bit
0:47:10Not too much
0:47:11but just give give them give the bass and the treble a bit of a boost from neutral and
0:47:15It makes it a little bit more live a little bit a little bit more fun sounding to most people
0:47:19That is what headphone people call a v-shaped sound signature
0:47:22Because like if you imagine on the EQ like the the left is the bass and the right is the treble and they're boosted
0:47:28But the middle is not so it forms like a little bit V with the with the controls
0:47:31These have that but it's not like super aggressive about it. It's not
0:47:37Really in your face about how much treble and bass it is boosting
0:47:41You know, usually that kind of toning of a headphone means
0:47:46The bass especially is usually really overpowering and that the mid-range is so
0:47:53Withdrawn by comparison that the vocals are kind of hard to hear over all the bass like, you know
0:47:59The vocals are almost withdrawn into the background
0:48:01Electric guitars are often, you know falling into the background because the bass is pushed so high
0:48:07The max does not have that problem
0:48:09It is it is a little bit v-shaped a little bit fun a little bit boosting and treble and bass
0:48:14But it's much closer to neutral than we usually get with that kind of boost and the mid-range does not feel
0:48:21buried or overpowered or withdrawn so mid-range is
0:48:24I'm a mid-range snob and
0:48:27What converted me to a mid-range snob was planar headphones and you know the way headphones work
0:48:33They have to move air somehow and very quickly. I don't waste too much time on this very quickly
0:48:38They can move air by having this cone with a magnet that drives that forward and back which is how almost all headphones work
0:48:45Those are called dynamic headphones speakers usually almost all work that way as well. You've seen these speaker shaped cones
0:48:49It's in the volume icon. It's everywhere a different way that some high-end headphones work is called planar magnetic or
0:48:56Orthodynamic it's same thing and what they do is suspend a very very thin
0:49:02Diagram with some conductive trace on it between two
0:49:06Grids of magnets and by running current through the trace on the diaphragm
0:49:11it induces motion with those magnets and and that's how they move and what that results in is
0:49:18Less mass of the thing that's moving
0:49:20than the typical like cone dynamic driver that you see in most speakers and headphones and
0:49:25What that does when you have less mass moving it allows it to have usually not always
0:49:31Usually not only better bass response for reasons physics and stuff and such but also a more smooth frequency response
0:49:38It doesn't have as many like weird peaks and valleys usually
0:49:41As dynamics just because again like the physics when you when you're moving less it's easier to better control how it moves
0:49:48What this results in in practice for me when I've tried most these kinds of kinds of headphones planar magnetic headphones
0:49:55Usually have much smoother mid-range and what I mean by smooth
0:50:01It's kind of hard to explain but you would know it if you heard it
0:50:04when you hear bad mid-range, it almost sounds like the vocals are
0:50:10Crunchy or like distorted in like a like a crunchy or kind of harsh way on your ears
0:50:16That's a very very common flaw in cheap dynamic headphones
0:50:20and that's one of the reasons why so many of them are tuned to boost the everything else and
0:50:26Withdraw the mid-range because they can't reproduce it well, and so they kind of bury that in bass and hope you don't notice I
0:50:33Notice and I care and the mid-range is my favorite part because that's where all the guitars and vocals are and I'm a guitars and
0:50:40vocals person so I want that to be awesome and smooth and it's very unusual for
0:50:45A dynamic headphone as opposed to the planar to achieve a smooth mid-range
0:50:51You love vocals you listen to fish and guitars. I said that's where all right
0:50:56All right, I feel like the lead singer of fish is Trey's guitar and that is solid mid-range music
0:51:04right, so like I care a lot about how electric guitars sound and
0:51:09Yeah, because of that
0:51:11here's the thing like it's funny say that John because I
0:51:14I don't want to make it sound like I think any of Marco's opinions are wrong
0:51:19but it is important listener that you understand that Marco has a very particular kind of music and his
0:51:25preferences match with that kind of music as your friends has matched with your kinds of music and and
0:51:29I'm not saying that's bad or wrong or
0:51:31Indifferent or otherwise it's just I think when you said it was planar headphones that got you to love the mid-range and trouble
0:51:38Oh, no, sir. It's fish that got you to love that. It's just a planar headphones match it
0:51:42Well, and so for me like for example, and I don't have AirPods max. I haven't listened to them yet. I
0:51:47Tend to like when I listen to music I tend to be drawn to music that had I think we've talked about this like a
0:51:53Year or two ago
0:51:54I tend to be drawn to music that has a stronger like bass or rhythm section and drums than I am
0:52:00Wowed by you know, really strong guitars. It's not always true, but often true
0:52:04And so for me the kind of boominess that Marco would not care for of course everything is limits
0:52:10But I I think I would be more receptive to it because I tend to focus on that
0:52:13Part of a band more than Marco does and so none of this again Marco's not wrong by any stretch of the imagination
0:52:18It's just if you're making a decision about whether to spend money on what is the $600 headphones?
0:52:23Just consider that Marco's opinions are based on the someone who to his own admission really likes a particular kind of music and and
0:52:30And if you'd like a different kind of music take that into consideration
0:52:34Right and and I try to test with a lot of different tracks like one of the like, you know
0:52:38If assuming you don't listen to fish
0:52:40Although they sell at stadiums somehow. But anyway
0:52:44You're all out there somewhere
0:52:47No one wants to know what's we minutes anyway, but like, you know, so like one of the bands I test with
0:52:52For all iPhones I test is the Avid Brothers because not only are they one of my favorite bands
0:52:58But also Avid Brothers their earlier stuff before they had like really fancy expensive producers
0:53:05The earlier stuff is a little bit more rough
0:53:08and and I think in my opinion better for that like it that gives it a level of like a
0:53:15personality and realness that that I feel like it's sanded off a lot as they
0:53:20increased their production levels and later albums, but their earlier stuff like
0:53:25Their their voices are almost harsh and there they go right up to that edge
0:53:31But they don't cross it if you're listening on good equipment and it sounds incredible to hear someone's voice
0:53:38That's almost too harsh. But then just it's it's it walks right up to it and it just doesn't cross that line
0:53:44It's an amazing energy to hear
0:53:46There like the early Avid Brothers records are murder on bad headphones
0:53:51Because they will reveal every flaw in mid-range reproduction at that a headphone can offer
0:53:57It's one of the reasons I use them as test tracks because not only do I like them
0:54:00But like it's very clear when you have bad mid-range reproduction the AirPods Max
0:54:06Do not achieve the level of smoothness of good planar headphones
0:54:11But they get damn close and that is incredibly impressive
0:54:17They're not the only
0:54:19Dynamic headphone to get that close, but they're one of very very few that alone is
0:54:26worthy of praise like that that is it's very very good at
0:54:31Not having that kind of crunchy sound not having any kind of weird
0:54:35distortion that I can identify in any obvious place like across the frequencies
0:54:39It's just a nice smooth
0:54:42pleasant sound that is a little bit aggressive in the bass and treble to make it sound a little bit more fun and
0:54:48Honestly, that's probably not like a flaw. That's probably by design. That's what most people want
0:54:53I'm very happy about the sound of these I spent a lot of time with open backed headphones because open back headphones
0:54:59They leak sound like crazy in and out and so they're unsuitable whenever you're near anybody or any noise sources
0:55:05But they usually sound way better
0:55:08It's hard for closed headphones to sound good to somebody
0:55:13Once they're accustomed to open headphones because they just had so much better
0:55:17But there again there are a few models of closed headphones that I've ever tried that are that are really good sounding in absolute terms
0:55:23It's not just like reading on the closed headphone curve and the AirPods max are one of those they are
0:55:28One of the best closed back headphones I've ever heard possibly even the best and they're one of the best
0:55:35Dynamic headphones I've ever heard again possibly even the best so sound quality. I am extremely happy with them
0:55:42They don't beat my my favorite, you know
0:55:44My hd6 but they really they beat almost everything else I have in sound quality
0:55:50Can you list those headphones by the way all the headphones that you tested against? I'll get there in one moment
0:55:55I do before I before I do direct comparisons. I want to talk about control
0:56:00The digital crown we were talking about last week
0:56:03I speculated that it was the same part as the watch John and I believe you said it was it must have been much bigger
0:56:07You were right. It is much bigger than the watch's digital crown
0:56:10that being said
0:56:13Because of like where it is, you know and the fact that you're not looking at it as you're operating it
0:56:18It actually feels a little too small still and it feels a little bit fiddly as a volume control and it's not actually
0:56:26great as
0:56:27The like primary button which is like track skipping or play/pause
0:56:31it's not great for that either because because it's a digital crown there's a lot of travel to push it in and
0:56:37Way more travel than like the regular button that's next to it to control the noise cancellation modes
0:56:42And it's actually because again because the digital crown it's a little bit difficult to click it in without accidentally
0:56:48changing the volume slightly
0:56:51so I think I actually another button would have served this role better and
0:56:55If they're gonna only have a digital crown and one button
0:56:59I would argue they should flip the roles of them that pushing in the digital crown should be the noise cancellation toggle and
0:57:06The much easier to press much easier to double and triple click button
0:57:11That's right next to it should be the play/pause and skip and everything
0:57:14Otherwise we covered earlier, you know, the ANC has the same, you know, three modes the transparency
0:57:20You know ANC and off modes as the AirPods Pro they work very similarly
0:57:25Automatic head detection
0:57:28Which is basically what activates the AirPods Max
0:57:32Automatically when you put it on your head and it makes it take over the current audio playback route
0:57:36That works fine. It's also an option that you can turn off
0:57:41One thing that I don't think you can turn off yet that I that I hope they add the ability to turn off is
0:57:46The automatic pausing when you take it off your ear for whatever reason like, you know AirPods Pro
0:57:51It makes more sense. You're like taking it out of your ear that kind of makes more sense
0:57:54but on this
0:57:56sometimes I like
0:57:57gotta like put my finger under the ear cups slightly to maybe itch my ear or something during a long recording and
0:58:02If you do that with these at the audio pauses
0:58:05Like if it's away from your ear at all even just like to you know, move a finger or maybe adjust your glasses or whatever
0:58:11Like it'll pause and that's that's kind of annoying
0:58:13So I hope that becomes an option down the road
0:58:15One of the good things about these headphones
0:58:17speaking of all these things you're talking about the buttons and all the different things that they perform is that I my assumption is that
0:58:22all the buttons are essentially
0:58:24programmable and in that if they change their mind about what the buttons want to do or even something as dramatic as you just said
0:58:29I'll let's switch the the noise cancelling versus the crown button to do opposite functions that they could in theory do that because it's all software
0:58:36Controlled right? Yeah as far as I know
0:58:38And that leads me to a question that came up
0:58:40Actually, we should have talked about a follow but we missed it and I'm not sure you know the answer to this
0:58:45Maybe I fix it can know is
0:58:48Is there any electrical connection between the ear cups?
0:58:54Like is there a wire essentially going from the left ear cup to the right ear cup or are they essentially two completely?
0:59:00independent little computers because there are two little h1 chips in there that like on your air pods where there's no wire between them they just
0:59:07Communicate with each other and coordinate to be a pair of headphones together for you or is there actually a wire connection between them?
0:59:13Well, they have to be powered. So there has to be at least a power cable between the two
0:59:17Maybe there's a battery in each one. Sure, but there's only one charging port
0:59:23There is a power cable between them at least and I would I would guess like there there is probably a wired
0:59:29audio
0:59:31coordination signal between them as well because otherwise actually there were almost certainly have to be because as I'm about to get to the
0:59:37wired mode is
0:59:39Indeed zero latency and so and it would be nearly impossible to do that
0:59:44Like wireless is sending it across your head without introducing any latency anywhere that that would be that would be very difficult if not impossible
0:59:50so
0:59:51At least doing it in the digital domain. So that's that would be very unlikely
0:59:54So yeah, it's it's almost certainly that they are wired together just you know through one of the sides of the headband
0:59:59But anyway wired mode speaking of which yeah works great. Are you using them right now? Yeah, are you using it now?
1:00:06No, because the comfort is just not good enough for me for long late or long listening like
1:00:11But I could and that's the important thing if I was on a trip or something and I wanted to just bring you know
1:00:17A small well a well traveling pair of headphones. Maybe this maybe these aren't the right ones because of their stupid case
1:00:24But yeah, I could bring these if I wanted to and I could use the cable for that the cable like the the little you know
1:00:31the $35 backwards wire is
1:00:34Kind of comical that it cost $35 talk about luxury
1:00:39This is the thinnest crappiest feeling cable that I think I've ever seen Apple sell
1:00:44It's so bad that had I not ordered it directly from Apple. I would assume it was counterfeit. Oh
1:00:49So because I'm pretty sure like I'm guessing that you know that this is only analog audio
1:00:56So it's only three conductors. It doesn't even have it isn't even the TR RS with the remote pin
1:01:02It's only TRS like the regular old three pin or three conductor cable without the remote control
1:01:08So like it's it's just you know
1:01:10Those three wires in there and it is that it is such a thin crappy feeling cable. It's also very short
1:01:15It's only one meter and so at a desk, it's too short
1:01:18It you know
1:01:19If you're like plugging into a laptop on on a trip or something
1:01:22It's probably fine for that or if you're plugging it into something in your pocket for some reason
1:01:26Somehow if you still have anything in your pocket with a headphone jack
1:01:28Then it would be fine for that as well
1:01:30But it is too short for desks or plugging into a microphone directly if you're yes for podcast monitoring. Yes, exactly
1:01:37The cable does not have a microphone or remote on it. You have to use those things built in built into the headphones
1:01:43It's also weird too that when you're using the cable mode the headphones still have an independent volume control on them
1:01:49So they don't just run at you know line volume level of whatever you plug it into they
1:01:54Have their own volume control that you have to turn up and down
1:01:56Separately from the device you're pulling it into if you want to which confused me at first
1:02:01I thought they were broken because it was just super quiet and it took me a while to figure out
1:02:05Oh, I should turn up their volume as well
1:02:07but anyway, so comparing it to other headphones and
1:02:13Just a quick thing. This is a very important thing to do when you're comparing audio quality or even comfort because
1:02:21It is so hard to remember how something sounds our brains play tricks on us
1:02:28Our memory is not that good
1:02:30And the only way to really compare headphones is to compare them like side by side
1:02:36Immediately like try this now quickly switch try this and quickly switch back and try that try to listen to the same thing same segment
1:02:42of the song on both like
1:02:43It's it trying to turn use any other way trying to like do any kind of testing by memory or by comparing frequency response graphs
1:02:49Like it doesn't really work. Our brains are not good at that. You have to do it this way
1:02:53And this is what I did
1:02:54So this is why I'm only gonna compare it to headphones that I actually had with me and tested today. Also people talk about
1:03:00Break-in or breaking in speakers and headphones and this concept that they sound better over time as they break in
1:03:07This has been disproven
1:03:09There's no science to back this up by anybody ever
1:03:11The headphones aren't breaking in your brain is breaking and your brain is getting accustomed to their sound profile
1:03:15So anything you get after listening to it for a while your brain is accustomed to it
1:03:19It might be doing a bit of correction and you know, it'll sound good to you. So that's fine. So anyway
1:03:26And also note as I compared this to the Sony noise cancelling headphones that the current Sony model is the WH 1000 XM4
1:03:34I don't have the XM4 have the XM2 two versions back
1:03:37It is very similar in most ways
1:03:40the main things they've changed between the two and the four are they switch to USB C and
1:03:45They've changed some of the smart features and some of the available audio processing features
1:03:50But there's not much else that's different between them as far as I can find as far as I can tell
1:03:54anyway, so
1:03:56first
1:03:57Comparing them to full-sized wired headphones, which is not a fair comparison in many ways
1:04:02But you know my my beloved hi-fi man hd6 my big flagship my favorite headphone of all time
1:04:08It has its open backed
1:04:11You know, it's it's not this is not a fair fight at all that you know
1:04:14The hd6 is first of all discontinued many many years ago
1:04:18Cost twice as much wired open backed requires ridiculous amps to supply enough power to it
1:04:25but
1:04:26You know, it does the hd6 does sound better
1:04:29But not as much better as I would have thought for all those all those trade-offs the hd6
1:04:35Did you try the AirPods max with a wire for the audio as to try to compete to remove the Bluetooth factor?
1:04:42I tried it both ways. I did some of the testing with the wire and some without honestly
1:04:46I could not tell a difference
1:04:48Bluetooth as a codec and as a thing like audio files argue about this all the time about what it does to their sound quality
1:04:54The reality is it's complicated. There's been multiple Bluetooth codecs over time multiple codecs that different devices support
1:05:01The if you're using like the old a2dp codec
1:05:05It does indeed sound kind of crappy with with good enough headphones like you can you can hear the difference
1:05:10But no modern headphone communicates that way the the Android and Sony
1:05:16Camps for a while use something called aptX which was like a higher-end codec Apple has always used AAC
1:05:23So they're simply as far as I can tell they're still doing this simply encoding on AAC on the device
1:05:28Sending it over the air as AAC and then decoding in the in the headphone. They've done that for a long time now
1:05:33Whatever they're doing is at a high enough bitrate that it's pretty transparent. I cannot tell a difference
1:05:38anyway, I
1:05:40Compared it to my current closed headphone favorite the one I'm using right now the Dan Clark audio eon 2 closed
1:05:45Eon 2 is way more comfortable. It's just it's a it's a huge headphone
1:05:50It's one of those teardrop shaped ear cup things a massive headphone huge comfortable pads
1:05:55But it's also the eon 2 is tuned for one of those warm sound signatures with with relatively weak treble response
1:06:03I actually I actually thought the sound from the max is more fun because it has that increased treble
1:06:10But eon 2 is a little bit smoother has you know more refinement range and everything
1:06:14but anyway moving down the price range a little bit the
1:06:17Wonderful venerable headphones that I think case is probably wearing right now the bear dynamic DT 770 Pro
1:06:22Mm-hmm the way they sound the tonal balance, you know treble bass everything that it's actually very similar to their pods max
1:06:30The DT 770 has a you know, v-shaped
1:06:33EQ curve kind of boost trouble and bass a little bit
1:06:36but the 770s bass is a bit weaker the treble is a bit stronger and the mid-range is
1:06:43very slightly more crunchy on the 770s, so
1:06:47overall a surprisingly similar sound
1:06:49Of all the headphones I tried it against the DT 770 sounds the most similar to the max
1:06:56But the max sounds like a slightly better a bit smoother and a bit more refined
1:07:01I mean a bit better balanced version of the DT 770 so that it actually sounds significantly, you know
1:07:07it sounds better but like if you if you you have to like try them back to back to really even notice
1:07:14Most of the difference so it's basically a wireless DT 770 and I consider that a very good thing like three times the price, right?
1:07:21Yeah
1:07:23But you know, it's wireless it has noise cancellation. Like I wouldn't want to travel with my 770s
1:07:27I have but it's not fun because they're so big and bulky but certainly like for for you know at a desk
1:07:33You know the 770s put up a pretty good fight
1:07:35Now compared to the AirPods Pro the AirPods max have a worse transparency mode
1:07:42and I don't know if this is just the physics of you know, having these cups that sit over your ears that don't quite maybe seal as as
1:07:49uniformly or as evenly as
1:07:52The AirPods Pro which is which are going partially in your ears
1:07:55and the AirPods Pro benefit from like having your ear itself as
1:08:00Part of the thing that is that is adjusting the noise on the way in like the shape of your ear
1:08:04Actually changes sound on the way in and so over ear headphones where their microphones are outside of your ear
1:08:11Don't have the benefit of knowing how your ear is going to shape the sound on the way in
1:08:16Whereas the AirPods Pro the microphones are like partially in your ear
1:08:21And so they are getting some of that ear processing that your ear is doing on the sound
1:08:25They're getting some of that on the way into their microphone. So they're able to have I think a better transparency mode as a result
1:08:32Transparency on the max honestly is not very good
1:08:36Everybody everybody loves it all the reviews of saying wow transparency mode is amazing
1:08:40I'm hearing these are some people who have used the AirPod Pros, right?
1:08:44So it's not like people who have never been in the Apple you with them and haven't tried the other Apple product
1:08:48So that's a little bit surprising
1:08:50But you know what makes me think that what Apple needs here is
1:08:52To talk to the Sony folks because what you want is your own personal head related transfer function
1:08:58Yes, so that knows the shape of your ear is that because the AirPod max doesn't know the shape of you like
1:09:03You know exactly like the actual sound landing on your head is hitting giant aluminum cups with pinholes
1:09:10And I'm right it is not it is not bouncing around in your ear
1:09:13And so Apple probably has some sort of best guess standardized head related transfer function to try to make transparency sound
1:09:21More or less normal, but the AirPods Pro have your literal actual ear there. Yeah, and and to be clear like the AirPods Pro
1:09:27Transparency mode totally destroys the Bose's and the Sony's it's not even close
1:09:33But the AirPods Pro is a little bit better like the transparency on the max. I was able to
1:09:40Notice it sometimes whereas I use it all the time on the Pro
1:09:44And I I almost can never like notice artifacts of it whereas on the max. They're they're actually pretty clear
1:09:51Like you you can't forget that you're using transparency mode on the max whereas in the Pro you can
1:09:57That's how good the Pro is and the max is close, but it's not quite there
1:10:01Also compared to the Pro the max just sounds way better. You know it's much larger soundstage
1:10:08stronger bass
1:10:09much smoother mid-range
1:10:11The AirPods Pro sound very good for what they are but in this case physics wins and and the max sounds way way better
1:10:18But that's to be expected. I sure hope so for that for the price difference
1:10:21moving on to
1:10:23One of the most commonly recommended alternatives the Bose 700. This is the this is Bose's current flagship
1:10:30noise cancelling headphone
1:10:33Very similar overall size. It's a very similar bad folding where they only fold down. They don't fold in
1:10:39But Bose has like a normal case and that is far more useful. You're gonna like throw it in travel bag or something
1:10:45Bose also has
1:10:47significantly better comfort
1:10:49Overall out of all these headphones. I've tried the Bose is my favorite for comfort
1:10:54Just barely edging out the Sony's the Sony's are also excellent, but the Bose has a bit of an edge for me
1:11:00Bose has
1:11:02Noise cancellation that I think is a little bit stronger
1:11:04You can also adjust how much it is from zero to ten like it's it's very adjustable
1:11:09It's very nice on the Bose
1:11:11It has useful voice prompts like when you connect the device the Bose says connect to two Marco's iPhone
1:11:17Sony's actually have a similar feature
1:11:20It tells you like noise cancelling 10 noise cancelling 5 it'll tell you battery
1:11:2557% like it announces that all in the ear cups, which is just a nice feature and
1:11:31Apple has the tech to do that
1:11:33Obviously they choose not to they choose to just like play tones instead and have you look at your phone for all this info
1:11:38I wish Apple would go a little bit more in this direction
1:11:41That's a very useful feature in practice when you're actually using these actually traveling the way that would manifest is is you'd hear this voice
1:11:48Just a moment
1:11:50Moment I'm working on it. I'm sorry. I couldn't connect your device
1:11:54The main voice I hear in my house when Apple speaks to me with a voice yeah
1:12:01so
1:12:03Unfortunately, my Bose love fest ends when it comes to talking about the sound Bose has the worst sound in the group by a mile
1:12:10It's not even close talking about like a crunchy mid-range
1:12:15Bose is the worst. I'm pretty sure Bose's audio engineers don't listen to any music with vocals
1:12:21I don't know how they would possibly think that that sounds okay. It's terrible mid-range is the worst treble response is
1:12:28Significantly weaker than everything else yeah by far the worst sound in the group
1:12:32But that being said on planes that isn't actually that big of a problem anyway
1:12:37Compared to the Sony's WH 1000 XM2 is the one I have very similar to the three and four
1:12:44And the MDR 1000 X which is the one
1:12:46Sony has by far the best folding the best travel case
1:12:51They have excellent comfort the ear cups are a little small
1:12:56They could be a little roomier, but overall excellent comfort Sony has my favorite ear pads
1:13:00Like just like how how like soft and pliable and how much they spread the weight. They just are awesome the Sony's
1:13:07Today like before I at least before I got my AirPods Pro the Sony's were my headphones of choice while traveling
1:13:13You know I wouldn't use them in normal circumstances, but like on planes
1:13:17I would I would go for those instantly Sony has a much bass heavier sound
1:13:22It's kind of it's a little bit too boomy on the bass a little more crunchiness in the mid-range and a little weak on the treble
1:13:28response
1:13:29compared to the AirPods max
1:13:31But way better sound than the Bose like the Bose you play it
1:13:35And you just are sad like you can't believe like man
1:13:39I'm I'm really doing Neil Young a disservice here playing his music through this right now. Where's the Sony would know?
1:13:45So God I forgot with that
1:13:48Whereas the Sony's are like okay? Yeah, I think I think Neil would be mildly okay with this whereas yeah the Bose
1:13:55You're just like you're you're sad. He's sad everyone's sad
1:13:57The Sony has a pretty rough transparency mode
1:14:01This is like a constant hiss that you hear and it sounds like it sounds like you're listening to the world through intercom
1:14:07But otherwise Sony is is
1:14:11Very good overall a great all-arounder. I think if you need noise cancelling headphones
1:14:17and you don't want to spend the
1:14:19AirPods max premium, and you don't want AirPods Pro to serve that role just get the Sony's
1:14:25There's a reason everyone recommends them. They they really are like great all-arounders
1:14:29They're not amazing at any one thing except for the the folding and everything
1:14:34They're like that they're super amazing, but they are really good at everything
1:14:38How is the noise cancelling on the apples?
1:14:41I've heard a lot of people say that
1:14:42People who find the noise cancellation on Bose and Sony's a little bit oppressive or they could it feels like there's pressure in your ear
1:14:48That somehow the Apple ones were less pressure though
1:14:51Obviously if the Bose one has an adjustable just adjustability for the noise cancelling maybe you can dial that down
1:14:56But how did you feel the noise cancelling was in terms of ability to cancel noise?
1:14:59And if you're one of those people who feels that sort of pressure effect
1:15:02It's hard. Yeah, so I am one of those people who has historically not liked noise cancellation that much
1:15:09That was like with some of the older ones like the quiet comfort 35 - and stuff like that
1:15:13I didn't like those as much
1:15:15Ever since the era of the Sony, you know 1000 series
1:15:19I've liked it when I'm on planes and
1:15:22And similar AirPods Pro I have found to be fantastic for noise cancellation because like it's not too much
1:15:30It doesn't feel or sound unnatural to me same thing with the Sony the Bose. I don't keep it level 10
1:15:36I keep it at level 5 and that's I found that to be okay when I used it
1:15:39The AirPods max seem overall with noise cancellation. They they you know, this is hard to test because I'm not flying anywhere right now
1:15:48So it's hard to test but I tested it like, you know tip was vacuuming in the other room
1:15:51and so I kept switching between all these headphones like the vacuums going and I like played a podcast out of a speaker also nearby to
1:15:58Kind of see how it how would you know compared to that and and overall?
1:16:02It's very similar sounding in noise cancellation to the AirPods Pro. I
1:16:06expect it to be much stronger and
1:16:10I think it's a little stronger, but it's not a it's not a massive difference
1:16:14But as for like the the unnatural feeling in my again limited testing so far it seemed fine
1:16:21I think if you're okay with the way the AirPods Pro do it, you'll be okay with the way these do it
1:16:25Finally, what would I use this for?
1:16:29like well like what wins these battles and
1:16:32you know compared to like what would I use it a desk I
1:16:36Really? Enjoy listening to music on the max at a desk and and if I walked around listening to music
1:16:43Which I don't I walk around listen to podcasts, but if I wasn't listening to music, you know, maybe but at a desk
1:16:47It was fantastic. I love the Bluetooth integration if I was going for like a more
1:16:51minimal setup to like get rid of my
1:16:53desktop headphone amp and get rid of the wire and just have wireless headphones that I listen to like or if I if I like
1:16:59Was going to an office and I wanted something for the office that and I didn't want like a big setup there
1:17:04Then maybe the problem for me though is that they don't offer all-day comfort
1:17:09When I'm listening to them and they feel great, but every time I would listen for a while and then take it off
1:17:14It would be kind of a relief that it was off my head and that's not good. It's the comfort is not good enough
1:17:23Ideally if you're gonna have headphones at a desk, you're probably gonna be there a while and
1:17:29If in that case you probably want something that has better long-term comfort, you know
1:17:33Like like the DT 770 or the eon 2 or if you want to go wireless probably the Sony's
1:17:38For that use and I think there's a reason why so many tech people probably many of you listening to this right now
1:17:45use the Sony headphones all day at work when you know when that's a thing because
1:17:50There's just they're comfortable if you need noise cancellation all day at work
1:17:55Which I've never been a fan of using it that often but many people do the Sony's are probably the way we would go for
1:18:00That as well because again, they just they are better for long wearing comfort if the AirPods Max had better
1:18:06Earpads and and a little bit better maybe a little bit lighter weight a little better ear pads
1:18:11They could take over that market but the comfort is just not there
1:18:15wasn't one of the rumors about the AirPods Max is that the production of it was delayed a little bit because
1:18:22They were the the headband was a little bit too tight and they needed to loosen it up as a manufacturing sort of adjustment
1:18:28Yeah, we heard that
1:18:30I mean, I don't know and it's hard to know whether any of that any of those rumors hold any water
1:18:32But I mean, but I think we heard that before anyone had warned them
1:18:35So it doesn't seem like that it is a rumor is a reaction to people trying them and thinking they're a little uncomfortable
1:18:40It was like before anyone had even touched them. That was a rumor. So it makes me wonder if there was
1:18:44Some sort of comfort adjustment stuff going on what I really like to hear is the explanation of the case
1:18:49Like how did we get that?
1:18:50What happened there?
1:18:52Yeah, so so at a desk
1:18:54They're they're a good option for sound quality and for the integration with the OS and everything
1:18:58I just wish they were more comfortable for a long wearing
1:19:01While I'm walking around I'm gonna pick AirPods Pro every time they're they're pocketable
1:19:07They're less conspicuous if that matters to you
1:19:10Like I even even like for the conspicuous angle
1:19:13I wouldn't even I don't think I'd even want to wear the max is like on a zoom call or something because I would it would
1:19:17Just feel conspicuous to me AirPods Pro also for walking having the better transparency mode matters to me
1:19:23I'm always using transparency with them while walking and the pro are also, you know less sweaty in the summer
1:19:28They fit under hats in the winter. It's it's wonderful
1:19:32The AirPods Pro are great for walking and I don't think the max is gonna change that for almost anybody
1:19:36On a plane
1:19:39What would I use? Guess what? I'd use the AirPods Pro still because sound quality matters far less
1:19:46on planes than
1:19:48comfort and like travel practicality travel logistics
1:19:53so the max having this amazing sound quality that doesn't matter so much on a plane and
1:19:58All the maxes big disadvantages like the long wearing comfort the terrible case. Those are the highest priorities on planes
1:20:05so I
1:20:07Feel like the the case situation and the comfort situation on the max really cost it that market pretty big time
1:20:13And so I would not pick it on a plane. I would continue bringing my two pairs of AirPods Pro
1:20:18Sounds like you would not use these things in a box. You would not use them with the
1:20:22Here there you would not use them anywhere. Does that mean getting a pair of blue headphones?
1:20:27I don't know. I don't know if she likes them yet. We didn't have time for her to tell some today yet, but
1:20:31It's just it's a shame
1:20:33I really want so badly to like these because I love the way they sound I really very much enjoy their sound
1:20:40But I have a hard time thinking when I'm going to use them, you know
1:20:44So I as for like whether I'm keeping it or returning it or I the answer is I don't know yet
1:20:50I wish they were more comfortable and I'm gonna try wearing them a little bit more
1:20:54You know, we're in the holiday extended return period now
1:20:56I think I can return them up till January 15th or something
1:20:59I'm gonna wear them a lot over Christmas and and just kind of see like, you know
1:21:02Does it break in do the ear pads get a little bit softer?
1:21:05Does the headband loosen up a little bit to matter? I don't know but
1:21:08Ultimately, I I hope I can make these work as I do love the way they sound
1:21:13But the comfort has me concerned enough that I think I don't I wouldn't give it a high chance
1:21:18So let me take a different approach at this
1:21:21Who should be buying these like what do you think the air pods max are best suited for? Well, ultimately, I think
1:21:29Try them and if they're comfortable on you great like, you know headphone comfort varies because people are different
1:21:36We have different shaped heads. We have different shaped ears. We have different preferences. We have like it
1:21:41Some people are gonna probably find them comfortable enough. Some people aren't comfort is going to be the biggest
1:21:47Limiting factor once you get past the massive price a terrible case
1:21:52But like again, they sound great and they function pretty well in most ways. I
1:21:58I wish I could wear them more often. But but ultimately the comfort is is a pretty big problem for me, but I
1:22:06Again, I'm just one person they might be comfortable on you
1:22:09I don't know
1:22:09so all I can say is
1:22:11Go into it with you know with that
1:22:14Potential warning in mind that the comfort might not work for you or it might and see if it works for you
1:22:18And if it works for you good, you know more power to you. It sounds like the target market is someone who values audio quality
1:22:25So all right away you're willing to spend more money, even though these are only you know
1:22:28marginally better sounding than say the DT 770s, right and
1:22:32Maybe doesn't like things in your ears, which I don't like so that that rules out the the air pods Pro, right?
1:22:38And so that's you know, like if you if you're in that realm and you're like, well, I'm not super bargain-conscious
1:22:45I don't like things in my ears
1:22:46I do like the sort of wireless experience and I want him to sound really good because the only ones that of the tet phones
1:22:52That you listed that you said you like the sound of better are the way more expensive open backed which is totally different category
1:22:57you're not gonna use that in an office right because
1:22:59Cost loans so I don't even use it in my office most of the time, right?
1:23:03And and you mostly rules out travelers because of all the travel issues or whatever. So
1:23:07Yeah, so I mean like the thing I was afraid of with these headphones is that everything we had previously surmised about them would be
1:23:13True and the sound quality would just be like meh, right? But it sounds like the sound quality is better than meh
1:23:18So now they do have they do have a place in the market
1:23:22Maybe not a place for Marco who you know
1:23:24Is got his green eggs and ham thing going on because he's got too many other headphones
1:23:27And he's got other headphones that he already likes for the other purposes, right?
1:23:30But most people don't already have like their three favorite headphones for different contexts like Marco, you know
1:23:35He's got the AirPods Pro for walking the dog and for being away from his desk and also on a plane which is weird
1:23:40But that's what he likes and for at the desk. He's got his
1:23:42Fancier, you know open back ones when no one's around or whatever
1:23:46So this thing doesn't have a place in his life
1:23:48But if you have zero over your headphones or you have just let's say you'd have just the Bose ones for an airplane
1:23:54These sound like again if you're willing to spend tons of money for something that sounds good
1:23:57This could fill
1:23:59The role in your life where I want to listen to music on headphones without disturbing people and I want that music to sound really
1:24:04Good, and I'm an Apple user
1:24:06Yeah, basically, but only if the comfort works for you and only if the price works for you
1:24:10And that's those are two pretty big ifs. Yeah
1:24:12I mean
1:24:13I mean the comfort I think is also part of the context of comfort is how long do you expect to be wearing them if you're
1:24:18Going to be you know in the olden times at your desk all day long in a stupid open office where you have to wear
1:24:23Them for eight hours comfort is super important
1:24:25But if you're just gonna wear them, you know to listen to some tunes while you fiddle on your computer for 45 minutes
1:24:31Comfort maybe you maybe you're more flexible on that, right?
1:24:34Maybe you know, maybe it's not as big a deal that after three hours
1:24:37They start weighing on you right and the magnetically attachable headphones thing that makes me. I mean, it's probably gonna be expensive but
1:24:45Surely they'll be knockoff third-party something or other earpieces because that's as I found out when I'm looking for earpieces for my DT
1:24:52770s there's a big market for a replacement
1:24:54Ear things for headphones and this sounds like a goldmine because you can just make some knockoff ones that sort of kind of fit in
1:25:00There with the magnets and charge everybody ridiculous amount for them. Someone's gonna you know, buy the leatherette or plush velvet
1:25:06replacement ear cups and and the good thing about them is they'll be way easier to replace than your average headphone you got to do
1:25:12That stupid thing with the little flange rim and you're trying to carefully put it up like yeah
1:25:18Some headphones are better than others. Sometimes actually do have a mechanical thing
1:25:20But these are super easy just yank these things off and throw the ones on and if it turns out that that is your main
1:25:25Comfort issue scratchy fabric or and that doesn't distribute the weight and you get a pad that is a nice fabric or leather
1:25:31That has a bigger contact patch and tire parlance. Maybe that solves the comfort problem for you
1:25:37Yeah, I mean, I hope that kind of thing develops
1:25:41Like I hope there is some kind of ecosystem for third-party ones, but I don't know that there will be
1:25:46I mean
1:25:47I thought there would be a lot of third-party AirPods pro tips and there really aren't
1:25:50There's at least one brand that we keep hearing about our friends recommending for the AirPod pros. What are those the foam?
1:25:56AirPod pro tips. Yeah, I know what you're thinking of. I can't remember what they're called
1:26:00Yeah, so we'll see but yeah, ultimately
1:26:02I I'm impressed in so many ways by parts of this product and other parts just seems so bizarrely
1:26:09Unimpressive. Yeah
1:26:10The thing I was thinking about when in between these two shows when we talked about this like is that I was thinking about the fact
1:26:15That we spent an entire previous episode talking about a product that none of us had and then people like oh
1:26:19How can you talk about you don't even have it, but there's this phenomenon
1:26:22You'll experience this if you ever work for any company that releases anything to the public or in general and it puts anything out to
1:26:28the public
1:26:29When you're working on a thing whether it's a software product or a real-world physical product or whatever it is
1:26:34You're like you're you're on a small team or even if you're in a big company
1:26:37but there's a finite set of people who's working on this thing and
1:26:40You're doing your best you can you're trying to make it the best you can within the time and the budget and
1:26:46Thinking about all the different features and the things that it has or whatever
1:26:48But you're only 10 people 20 people 100 people however many people you are and you have weird like weirdly aligned
1:26:56objectives if you're a manager if you're you know a
1:26:59Developer if you're a product marketer, you're looking at it from your perspective within the context of the people making this thing
1:27:06It's true of movies truest podcast or whatever and when you put it out into the world
1:27:10You know the reason the wisdom of crowds is like we make fun of that saying but the reason it's a saying is because
1:27:15You put it into the world and it takes like 39 seconds
1:27:19for out of the 2 billion people that see it if you're Apple because you know, you put out something everybody sees it a
1:27:24Fraction of a percent look at it and immediately say oh
1:27:28Well here here are some three obvious problems or you think that case is terrible. The things should fold tighter your competitors fold tighter
1:27:34Why doesn't it come with a cable like how many people you have you heard us say it last week?
1:27:39How many other places did you see that you saw it on Twitter? You saw it on every tech website?
1:27:42so every review right how is it that Apple developed this product in-house for months or years and
1:27:48Either didn't know about this or didn't think it was that a big deal in the second
1:27:54We get to see it not even touch it reviewers
1:27:56Don't even have it. We just look at it and you can look at it with your eyes and go. Oh, no
1:28:00What's going on with that case because you can look at it and like we did last show say
1:28:04Here's my knowledge of the existing market
1:28:07Here's how that thing looks like it works and I can imagine it has problems and the old people get them and they all say
1:28:12That and you might think oh Apple so dumb don't they know the thing that everyone else immediately realizes that's wrong with their product
1:28:19But I can tell you as someone who's produced things to put them out to the world
1:28:21The answer is sometimes no like you're you're just so you have such a different perspective on it when you're making it
1:28:28Very often you can convince yourself that one thing you think is super important
1:28:32And the other thing you think is not that important and you get it wrong
1:28:35Because you're a small set of people with a limited perspective
1:28:37And the wisdom of crowds is as soon as you put your product out into the real world if there's some stupid thing about it
1:28:43They'll find it before they even touch your product and you know
1:28:46Obviously the better you are at the fewer of those that you have and it's great when you nail it all in the first try
1:28:51But there's a reason there are revisions in iterations of products
1:28:54So, you know, we look at this headphone and we go like Apple before we even release that I'm let you finish
1:28:59But let me tell you the five things that are wrong those headphones
1:29:03Maybe wait and revise like maybe include a hard case maybe include that cable maybe ditch whatever that case thing is or whatever, right?
1:29:11It's so easy to sort of armchair quarterback that
1:29:14but
1:29:16Like that's how we judge a product right?
1:29:18How many things did they get right how many sort of unforced errors did they make and it sounds like these headphones?
1:29:24Like a lot of things that Marco was talking about that
1:29:27He really loved surely people spent a huge amount of time getting that right
1:29:31doing the dynamic EQ and the sound stage and
1:29:34Adjusting it so that it essentially sounds to Marco like it is a nice v-shape to EQ of you know
1:29:40Whatever it's doing whatever computerized crap that it's doing
1:29:42They probably spent so much time in that because they're like, this is our number one priority and maybe we spent less time in the case
1:29:47Right, maybe they didn't think too much about that or maybe there was some other thing that was you know
1:29:52like and
1:29:53Even though these flaws are obvious to us that like when you're working on you're like, but we did so good on the sound
1:29:58I'm like, yeah. Yeah, but
1:30:01If the whole world looks at your product and can immediately see a couple of big problems
1:30:05You gotta you gotta work on those for the next revision. So I have hope some hope that
1:30:09Apple will take what seems like
1:30:13Fairly uniform feedback that like we appreciate the things that you did
1:30:17well
1:30:17Here's some small areas where you can do better and
1:30:20Come up with a rev to a rev three of these like all the other products you just described like the Sony's have changed a little
1:30:25Bit and the Bose have changed a lot and you know, sometimes for the worst. But anyway
1:30:29Feed this back in and come up with a second and third revision of these
1:30:33Assuming this product is successful enough for them to have a second every vision
1:30:36To just tweak the few things that are wrong and keep the things that are good about it and that can really
1:30:41Elevate this from a product that has a very narrow appeal especially at the given price to one
1:30:47That it easier to recommend people with your caveats
1:30:50We are sponsored this week by Linode my favorite place to host all of my servers
1:30:57Whether you're working on a personal project or managing an entire enterprises infrastructure
1:31:01You deserve simple affordable and accessible cloud computing solutions that allow you to take your project to the next level
1:31:08Simplify your cloud infrastructure with Linodes Linux virtual machines and develop deploy and scale your modern applications
1:31:14Faster and easier than ever you can get started on Linode today with a hundred dollars in free credit at Linode
1:31:22dot-com slash ATP or by texting ATP to four seven four seven four seven
1:31:28So once again Linode comm slash ATP or text ATP to four seven four seven four seven and get instant access to a hundred
1:31:36Dollars in free credit Linode is a fantastic web host. I've been with them for almost a decade
1:31:41I have used them by far longer than anyone else because they are the best I've used a lot of web hosts
1:31:47I've never found one as good as Linode in pretty much every way value features the control panel to support
1:31:54Everything about Linode their capabilities. I mean they offer so much stuff
1:31:58They have 11 data centers where you can put different servers
1:32:00They have all sorts of you know
1:32:01server capabilities balances between resource level specialty resource levels that you can get specialty add-ons like
1:32:07S3 compatible object storage managed kubernetes so much more visit Linode comm slash
1:32:15ATP and click on the create free account button to get started or text ATP to four seven four seven four seven and
1:32:22Get started on Linode today. I love Linode and I think you will too
1:32:26Thank you so much to Linode for hosting all my servers and for sponsoring our show
1:32:31So Marco
1:32:36I don't really know why you brought your iMac Pro to Apple because clearly if you just
1:32:42Uninstalled Chrome all your problems would go away part part of the magic of this program is that very often?
1:32:48We put something into the show notes
1:32:51And if you just leave it there long enough without getting to it because you're talking about other things
1:32:55The story develops and sometimes even almost resolves itself on its own and here I think this topic
1:33:02Benefited from us not talking about it
1:33:05Immediately because I think now we have more information than we did before kind of like if you just don't answer email
1:33:11Most of the need for it just goes away after a few days
1:33:14Yeah this yeah before we get to this yes everyone thank you for telling me about this
1:33:21I am aware and while I think it was not the problem on my iMac Pro because
1:33:27They did their firmware diagnostic and found that it's not software related and something is wrong with the logic board apparently with controlling its thermals
1:33:36It is might have actually been the problem with my 16 inch back I did like a full OS restore
1:33:42Reinstall on my 16 inch a few months back which was a huge pain in the butt
1:33:46Because it was having all the problems that
1:33:49Lauren reports the his 2015 or his wife's 2015 computer having of like just everything slow like slow
1:33:56keystrokes even like I was having bizarre problems on that and I could not figure out why and
1:34:03Unfortunately, I can't test this theory on that because I already got tired of it blew it away
1:34:07And it didn't have those problems after I didn't know less reinstall, but it was bad
1:34:11It was I've never had to do that on a Mac before or since like to solve a problem like that in that way
1:34:17You you mentioned Lauren what we're talking about here for people who haven't already been following this story is Lauren brick
1:34:22They're a developer a famous developer of Tweedy inventor of pull to refresh
1:34:26Generally technically knowledgeable person was having problems with his Mac
1:34:31And he turns out that uninstalling Chrome and all the crap that Google uses to control and update Chrome
1:34:38Solved his problem. He made a website Chrome is bad calm Chrome is bad is all one word where he describes his problem
1:34:45he describes how to implement the solution and has a bunch of testimonials from other people had similar problems and
1:34:49This this whole story set off just this big chain of people
1:34:53Discussing it many people saying I went to your website. I'm having similar problems. My computer seems slow the fans run all the time
1:35:00It's just generally crappy. I followed your instructions. I uninstalled Chrome
1:35:03I installed the Keystone updated that Google installs that that updates Chrome behind the scenes and it solved my problem
1:35:09Right and then other people are like, okay sure but like what actually is the problem, right?
1:35:15what symptoms are you're seeing beyond my computer seems slow and
1:35:19what is it about these steps that you took that solved that problem and
1:35:24Despite this story having been stewing for what week now two weeks, whatever it's been
1:35:30We don't have a great solution answer to that question. I
1:35:34think there are a couple things that play here one is
1:35:37This is revealing sort of the dark matter of computer dissatisfaction where people have max right and the max are
1:35:47Unsatisfactory in some way they always run hot the fan is always going they always seem slow like they just they're just unsatisfying in a way
1:35:56Often and it's in a way that's a difference from a change. It's like when the doctor asked you have you seen any change in?
1:36:00Your you know in your health like recently they just want to like is it different than it used to be?
1:36:04Right that the people don't expect it to be like this like Marco said maybe typing is slow and you're like typing is slow
1:36:10Like wow, like what's going on there? Maybe you hear the fans all the time
1:36:14You're like, I don't feel like I'm doing anything that's making the fans go and maybe that's a change from previous behavior, right?
1:36:20So there's there's this dissatisfaction, right? And then that someone comes along and says I
1:36:25Had similar problems
1:36:27In that they here is my vaguely expressed dissatisfaction my computer seems slow fans running all the time, right?
1:36:34Here's what I did and it's like install uninstall some third-party program that bunch people already don't like for various reasons
1:36:41and by the way
1:36:43The final step of this cleansing is to reboot your computer and if you do all these steps
1:36:48It's like you have a new computer your fans don't run high anymore
1:36:51Your typing is fast and responsive. Everything is snappy and then a bunch of people follow those steps and write in say hey
1:36:56I did that and it worked for me and
1:36:58For you know for the people who did that great like they presumably solved whatever problem
1:37:04They were having by doing this thing right now. Maybe three days later the problem came back
1:37:09We probably don't hear about it then but right but at least there was some positive thing
1:37:12But the question and technically minded person has is okay
1:37:15but what was the actual problem and
1:37:19What was the actual solution I can tell you now that sometimes when your computer gets into a weird state as we all know
1:37:25Rebooting it
1:37:27especially if you have your Mac configured not to relaunch all the programs that you were previously running rebooting to the finder with no apps running and
1:37:33No swapping use right Wow. Everything is like the fans are low and everything feels snappy
1:37:40Yeah, cuz you're not doing anything on your computer yet
1:37:41Maybe after a week when you relaunch all your programs and compile everything and get four gigs into swap
1:37:46maybe you're you know, it starts feeling slow again, right we don't know we want to look for is what is the cause and
1:37:52Chrome being the idea like I uninstalled it and that fixed all my problems
1:37:57It's like okay, but what was the actual problem that I can tell you from personal experience one chrome related problem
1:38:02I see a lot is guess what? You've got a million chrome windows not a mic even or my wife's computer
1:38:06Got a million chrome windows. You would never have a million chrome windows
1:38:09I do but here's the important distinction
1:38:11None of those windows are showing Facebook in any form or a page with crazy ads that go nuts
1:38:18like you know in the middle of the night some tab in some background window a background tab and a background chrome window has some
1:38:23Add in it that decides you know what 100% CPU is it Bitcoin mining?
1:38:27Who knows what the hell is doing but it's it's always and chrome itself has like a task manager
1:38:31Inside chrome to tell you which tabs are being naughty
1:38:34Which I feel like if you know which tabs are being no you like to spend them and there's a chrome extension that will do
1:38:38That for you and suspend all your background tabs. But anyway, I'll go there. I'll do that
1:38:43I'll find the three Facebook tags that are for whatever reason are freaking out because some ad running in the sidebar is Bitcoin mining and
1:38:49I'll close those tabs and
1:38:51Then suddenly all the fans go back down, right?
1:38:53So that is a way that Chrome can be a culprit if you uninstall Chrome
1:38:58Or if you simply don't run Chrome you will never have an open Chrome tab with a crazy Bitcoin mining ad
1:39:04Right or just some web page that goes nuts and starts just grinding your CPU forever and that will make your fans spin up and so
1:39:10On and so forth, right?
1:39:11So that's one thing that could be solving these fuels problem
1:39:13And by the way
1:39:14Safari is way nicer to your battery is way better on your CPU if you're if you care about that at all
1:39:20Do not use Chrome especially of a laptop and battery use Safari it is better on your battery than Chrome
1:39:25The other thing is this keystone thing that updates Chrome in the background for you. Some people say look, I'm not even running Chrome
1:39:32But keystone is doing something terrible my computer the second I remove keystone
1:39:36Everything got better and one of the culprits they they label is the the Windows Server
1:39:40Which is part of the Mac operating system its job is like composite the various
1:39:43Buffers that you see that make up the windows on the screen, right?
1:39:46It would be using a huge amount of CPU and they're like I uninstalled Chrome and keystone and Windows Server CPU usage went down
1:39:53Lots of people say that lots of people say that my computer was running hot. I'm not doing anything
1:39:58I open up activity monitor and I see Windows Server taking 100% CPU. I install Chrome and it solved that problem
1:40:03Maybe maybe it did but again, it's technically minding people who want to know
1:40:08Yeah, but how like how did the program that's not running make Windows Server go nuts?
1:40:13And there's one theory and this unfortunately is still on Chrome is bad.com. I think let me just double check
1:40:17Yeah, something called keystone this is the top of the site which bizarrely hides what it's doing from activity monitor
1:40:25There's a footnote now. What does it say?
1:40:28You know hiding from activity monitor inconceivable trust me I know computers
1:40:32Correct. The keystone updater process itself doesn't hide from activity monitor. It briefly shows up and disappears on schedule
1:40:38That is not the issue
1:40:39It is causing something else in the system you to consume massive CPU that leaves no indication that Chrome and keystone are in fact
1:40:43The culprits. All right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, that's an interesting theory, but you kind of have to say but how does it do that?
1:40:50How does a program that runs briefly and when it runs it does not hide from activity monitor runs it appears and then it
1:40:56Quits the whole point is it's checking for updates
1:40:58How does the act of running and then not running at all cause Windows Server forevermore to flip out?
1:41:04Is it plausible that can happen?
1:41:06Sure trigger bug in the OS call some private API that makes Windows Server freak out and go into an infinite loop could happen
1:41:12but we don't
1:41:14know that that's what's happening and
1:41:16There are many counterexamples as in everyone else who's running Chrome where key server the keystone thing runs periodically on its own
1:41:23And it doesn't make their Windows Server freak out. I run Chrome 24 hours a day seven days a week on my computer
1:41:28Keystone presumably is running in the background. My Windows Server never freaks out doesn't mean this bug doesn't exist
1:41:34Just means I'm not experiencing it. So the people who are experiencing it are, you know getting this bug. They're getting unlucky
1:41:39They have a problematic setup the thing
1:41:41I haven't seen anyone to mention yet
1:41:43Although if you do some googling you could find it when Chrome auto updates itself
1:41:47at various times it has
1:41:50done weird things behind the scenes like archiving previous versions of itself and keeping state around about how many different versions it is updated from
1:41:57and stuff
1:41:58Or would fill your disk with old versions of Chrome or get its database of what versions it's dealt with corrupted and flip out about that
1:42:05So I don't find it entirely inconceivable that the Chrome updater and all of its bookkeeping
1:42:11Can end up getting into a state where the auto updater
1:42:14Itself does bad things or spins for a while or fruitlessly tries to get an update that is never gonna be able to get
1:42:20Or otherwise, you know spin its wheels
1:42:22and
1:42:24One thing related someone installed another chromium based browser. I think it was that was brave
1:42:30I think and they're like new their default new tab page
1:42:33Was making Windows Server goes nuts and if you turn on like the quartz debug thing
1:42:38which shows you screen updates you could see that the
1:42:41The default like new tab page and brave was redrawing itself like as fast as it possibly could over and over and over again
1:42:46Which was basically asking Windows Server. Hey composite this buffer. Hey composite this buffer
1:42:51Hey composite this buffer over and over and over again as fast as it possibly can
1:42:54That if you ever see Windows Server going up in CPU
1:42:57Something is asking the Windows Server to composite buffers or do some screen related window compositing thing
1:43:04Over and over and over again, and if you're looking at your screen you're like, but nothing's happening
1:43:08It's possible that some program somewhere maybe even something that's not even visible is
1:43:13Flipping out and doing something wrong. That's calling causing the Windows Server CPU to increase right? So
1:43:19Unfortunately, maybe we didn't wait long enough. This is not a particularly we don't have a conclusion. No one knows what the actual problem is
1:43:26No one knows if Chrome is involved at all
1:43:28We do know that if you follow a bunch of these steps that can make your computer feel better
1:43:33So can just rebooting so can just quitting all of your programs so can logging out and logging back in
1:43:38Right so can just not using Chrome and using Safari instead because Chrome in general is more of a CPU hog
1:43:43Right, but none of that is satisfying like we people want it there to be a culprit. It's because I had a problem
1:43:49I took steps the problem is gone. Therefore the steps I took
1:43:52Exactly correlate to fixing the problem. Maybe they do but with computers and with programmers you kind of know
1:43:59Yeah, yeah, but why but how but what actually happened right? What is the bug now?
1:44:04We don't know that we don't have the source code to Keystone and honestly
1:44:06It's not our problem to figure that out
1:44:07If there really is a problem of Chrome, it should be the Chrome's team's job to figure it out
1:44:11Right and there have been bugs in Chrome many many times there's bugs in all sorts of programs
1:44:15But when it's a general malaise as in my computer is unsatisfactory in some way
1:44:19There are so many things that can be from spider eggs to malware to like just you know
1:44:26a bad tab open in Chrome to who knows what like we've all had processes go awry or
1:44:33Things freak out that are part of the operating system or third-party software drivers or a flaky USB device
1:44:39Like computers are really complicated. So I am immediately suspicious of anyone pinning blame on any one particular thing
1:44:45Especially when they can't tell me what the actual problem is again
1:44:49It's not the responsibility to tell me but if you're gonna conclusively say Chrome is the problem uninstall Chrome and it will fix your computer
1:44:54And if it doesn't I don't care because it fixed my computer. I
1:44:57Don't know like I'm not here to carry water for Chrome even though I use all the time and I like it but I
1:45:04Feel like this is an unsatisfying technical mystery like
1:45:09The most satisfying ones are the ones where your computer is doing something weird and someone eventually figures out what the problem is
1:45:16The less satisfying ones are my computer's doing something weird and I found solution
1:45:21But I don't know why it worked and that's that's the situation we're in now
1:45:24There is a problem. There's a vaguely specified problem
1:45:27There is a very cleanly specified solution, but there is no explanation for why it worked other than that those steps
1:45:35I took they must have stopped something from doing something that was bad. I know there's a lot of people swear
1:45:39It's true though
1:45:40I mean like what can be true is I did the thing in my computer got better
1:45:43But that doesn't the that doesn't you can't jump from that to say therefore
1:45:48Keystone is nefarious and doing something there, but you can't even jump to therefore Keystone has a bug
1:45:53We don't even know if you submit for all we know the Windows Server has a bug triggered by Keystone doing perfectly normal things
1:45:58Like if you don't know what the problem is, you don't know where to assign blame
1:46:01Yeah, I mean that that explanation wouldn't surprise me in the least because I have like I haven't used Big Sur
1:46:10For enough time to know if this is still true on Big Sur, but for Catalina, I have never
1:46:15had a Mac OS version
1:46:18Have as many problems as Catalina has in specifically this kind of area of like
1:46:23random performance slowdowns for no apparent reason that are solved by rebooting and
1:46:30Oftentimes, you know correlating to background demons just going nuts for no apparent reason
1:46:35like the other day I posted a screenshot on Twitter or like about you know,
1:46:39like all the high CPU usage and the the handful of Catalina background demons that were
1:46:43Seemingly consuming all these things for no reason and one of them was Dropbox. So everyone's like, oh, yeah Dropbox
1:46:48Well, I I quit Dropbox and a half hour later
1:46:51those same
1:46:53System processes were still like spinning 100 CPU each and so I eventually rebooted and of course the problem went away and this is like
1:46:59It doesn't matter. I don't know whose fault this is. I don't know as you were saying John
1:47:04I don't know if this is like a bug in the OS or
1:47:07The a certain way that certain apps I have installed like whether it's Dropbox or Chrome or whatever a certain way that they trigger
1:47:15bugs in the OS I don't know but it is a real problem and these solutions do often fix it and
1:47:22So from my point of view as a user
1:47:24It's like well look you guys figure this out like Apple Dropbox Chrome, whoever you are figure it out amongst yourselves
1:47:31This is your fault in some way, but it becomes my problem as a user and I have to take measures to deal with it
1:47:37We don't know as you said like we don't know enough to assign blame
1:47:41But it does seem like there is a real problem here that many people face that is solved by removing Chrome
1:47:48I mean, but there's a million problems
1:47:50They potentially solved by a million things including the rebooting which is the final step like so we don't even know if it's just one thing
1:47:57Like like you said if it's if it's an OS level problem like there's a little bit of the doctor at Hertzman
1:48:02I did this then don't do this thing. It's like well
1:48:04When I use my computer occasionally background demons freak out and cause high CPU load
1:48:10It's like well just don't use your computer. You won't have that problem
1:48:12Like, you know, it's like if you think it's some piece of third-party software and you stop using that software
1:48:17But then it happens again. What do you do? I'll just stop using my computer. I'll just stop using finder
1:48:21I'll just stop using a web browser like
1:48:23When there are OS level bugs, especially if those OS level bugs are triggered by completely valid normal non-nefarious
1:48:30application behavior any
1:48:32Application you run can potentially trigger that bug whether it's discovery D freaking out and not looking up names or whatever
1:48:38Like that's the nature of OS bugs and they will manifest
1:48:41Essentially no matter what if there's just one program trigger and Chrome triggers it but like brave or edge don't or Safari doesn't then
1:48:48Yeah, you solve your problem by saying it hurts when I do this. Okay. Well don't do that
1:48:50Don't use Chrome use something else, right?
1:48:52But you still don't know what the actual problem is the thing about like Dropbox and stuff is it's somewhat satisfying to at least have
1:48:59a plausible theory
1:49:01Dropbox to know when things happen on disk has to monitor changes in the Dropbox folder and there are a bunch of API's for
1:49:08Doing that but one of them is essentially to drink from the FS events fire hose, which is just like look
1:49:13You know Apple operating system. Just tell me everything that happens
1:49:17Related to the file system and I'll figure out whether I care about it or not, right?
1:49:21And doing that is expensive because you do something that does a lot to the file system say expanding Xcode
1:49:28Which creates a bazillion files?
1:49:30Every single one of those bazillion files is firing off an FS event and Dropbox is there running and saying oh my god
1:49:36Look at all these events do I would care about this one? No, do I care about this one?
1:49:39No, do I care about this one? No, and that burns CPU
1:49:41and so when you're running Dropbox and you're expanding Xcode and you see your CPU usage going up and
1:49:48Then you try that same process with Dropbox not running and it gets faster
1:49:51You have a plausible somewhat provable
1:49:54theory of what's happening because you can run s trace on Dropbox when you're expanding Xcode and watch it calling the FS events like
1:50:00that is much more satisfying when it's just like
1:50:04My computer does weird things and I can't figure out why it can be so many things and that's why these sort of
1:50:09The anecdotes of I followed your instructions and it made it better is very much like I mean you can make up any instruction stand
1:50:15On one foot touch your nose and reboot your computer. It's like oh everything got better
1:50:18Yeah, rebooting your computer fixes a lot of problems. It's not on it's not very satisfying
1:50:23But it's true
1:50:25But if I tell you do anything before you reboot or let's say you don't reboot just quitting programs solves lots of problems because if you
1:50:30Quit the program that was causing a problem or that one program was using a lot of memory it put you it pushed you into
1:50:34Swap and that was your problem everything got slow because it's swapping right even though you have an SSD
1:50:39Swapping is still bad and you can get into a bad way
1:50:41Like people aren't equipped and shouldn't be have to be equipped to diagnose their computer anymore
1:50:46They know what that weird noise is under the hood of their car, right?
1:50:49They just know that something is wrong
1:50:51And that's why you take your car to someone who knows or you hope like Apple or the developers figure out how to make it
1:50:57so there aren't problems but
1:50:59Anytime someone comes up with like a you know
1:51:01Try this one weird trick to fix your computer the chances of that one weird trick being the solution to everyone's problem
1:51:07It's very very low and more likely
1:51:09Literally doing anything to your computer to perturb what you were doing before doctor hurts when I do this stop doing that
1:51:17Hey, it solved my problem. So I
1:51:19I don't like the idea that people are thinking this was the solution
1:51:24I do like the idea that people are having a better experience with their computers
1:51:28but
1:51:29We won't make forward progress in our computers getting better unless somebody
1:51:33Able to figure out what's going on, right? Like Apple figured out. Hey discovery D not so good
1:51:38We got you got a we got to fix that if instead apples like oh, I don't know. It's just some vague problem
1:51:43We can't figure it out. We had to be pinpointed had to say
1:51:46This is the thing that's wrong because when I swap it for the old thing all of a sudden my whole computer gets better and it's
1:51:52Not because you're running a web browser and it's not because you're doing this. It's because there's an OS level component. That's host, right?
1:51:57that's the solution I want to see or
1:51:59Explanation right either someone's using a private API someone's doing something to trigger bug in the OS
1:52:05But someone has to figure this out and just not running Chrome the world's most popular web browser
1:52:11I think it's probably not the best solution
1:52:13So either Chrome's got to figure it out or Apple's got to figure out or someone's got to figure out
1:52:17So I really hope all the people who are following the instructions that I think are on this website or at least tweeted of
1:52:22Like how to provide diagnostic information to the Chrome team the Chrome team is like look if you think it's us like help us
1:52:29help you we want to fix this too, but we need to know that it's us first and
1:52:33It's difficult situation because as Marco he says like it's not his job to help Apple debug their crap
1:52:39But on the other hand if nobody does it nothing ever gets fixed
1:52:42Thanks to our sponsors this week Linode Mac Weldon and flat file and thank you to our members who support us directly
1:52:49You too can join at ATP that FM slash join. Thank you, and we will talk to you next week
1:52:55Now the show is over they didn't even mean to begin because it was accidental
1:53:05was accidental
1:53:08John didn't do any research Marco and Casey wouldn't let him because it was accidental
1:53:15was accidental
1:53:19And you can find the show notes at ATP
1:53:22FM and if you're into Twitter
1:53:26You can follow them at
1:53:29CAS
1:53:31ey L
1:53:33ISS so that's Casey lists and a RC Oh a RM
1:53:37anti Marco Arman
1:53:40SIR AC
1:53:43USA, Syracuse
1:53:45It's accidental
1:53:47You know in our super secret private chat
1:54:01copyright due by Friday
1:54:04Marco had said in exasperation a couple of days ago, you know screw it
1:54:08Maybe I'll just go get an XDR and it occurred to me in our super secret private chat
1:54:13And I said to you Marco that you getting the XDR first and then saying well, I mean I have this XDR
1:54:20I've got to get a Mac Pro to match it. That was not the route. I expected you to take
1:54:25God, I I have never wanted more for Apple to just make the monitor
1:54:31I want like that. There's such a giant hole in the market, especially now as they just released these amazingly compelling
1:54:39laptops and Mac minis
1:54:42And there is not yet a similarly compelling
1:54:45iMac or Mac Pro like it's like everybody like so many people want to be using these brand new laptops and
1:54:53Mac minis as
1:54:55their desktops all of a sudden and the only option is either this terrible LG monitor or Apple's
1:55:02$7,000 monster
1:55:03I mean
1:55:04the only reason they all want them is because these are the only our max that are out and they're the low-end ones and I
1:55:09Think everyone who is like I'm gonna use a fanless air as my main computer that that instinct that desire that whole
1:55:16Thing is just gonna go away as soon as Apple releases the presumably much faster much better much, you know
1:55:21Much better suited to people needs Pro
1:55:23Armax and then and then you say hey, I thought you were gonna use your arm as your as your main computer like yeah
1:55:28But now the iMac is out. Yeah, and that's like and I
1:55:31right now I am using my amazing little fanless Mac mini as my main computer and
1:55:37You know, there are some things about it that are not as fast as they could be
1:55:41But I think most of that is most of that feels like software problems. Honestly, it doesn't feel like hardware
1:55:46There's still a lot of stuff that is that is not optimized for
1:55:50Apple silicon that I'm that kind of surprises me like like Dropbox they claim that it works
1:55:56But it doesn't like if you look at activity monitor, it still says different Intel binaries
1:55:59One password and all of its sub processes are still not
1:56:03I can't run call recorder at all for Skype because that's and that's not at all compatible yet
1:56:07So there's like there's certain things about it that that are weird and not yet optimized
1:56:13I yes, I am fully aware that my own two Mac apps are also not optimized
1:56:19But that doesn't really matter because they work fine. Well, wait, what why aren't you to max?
1:56:23Max optimize when she's recompiled
1:56:26Quitter I could try haven't touched quitter in so long
1:56:29I bet it will be an ordeal to do it because now I have to deal with things like notarization all of those stuff
1:56:34fine
1:56:36forecast uses the
1:56:38mp3 encoding library lame
1:56:40And I and it like it uses one that's built from homebrew
1:56:44And so I kind of have to like I think I assume I have to wait for that to be easily buildable on
1:56:49Our max and it isn't yet as far as I have to does it does it run it in a separate process
1:56:55Or is it all in process? No, it's in process, but it's separately built a dilib
1:56:59Yeah, all right. Well that one's gonna be a pain, but I think what right you would just be mad at recompiling
1:57:03But it just doesn't matter like I don't even run quitter anymore myself. Honestly. It's kind of abandoned but it quit quitter
1:57:08Yeah, but and forecast like forecast should matter but in practice, you know
1:57:16You're only running it for a few minutes here and there and it's so fast
1:57:18Anyway, and and Rosetta is so fast that in practice. It doesn't really matter
1:57:24For that app. So once it once it becomes easy to support the encoding library on that
1:57:29On Apple silicon that I will issue the update but it isn't yet easy. And so it's not worth trouble
1:57:34I want to go back a step though. I think even though I have used the LG 5k
1:57:42Briefly, but many times because my dad has one
1:57:45I didn't find it nearly as offensive as you but again, I've only been using it for ten minutes at a time once
1:57:52you know once every month or two, so this is not extended use by any stretch, but
1:57:56Despite that and even though I don't find it to be that particularly terrible
1:58:01It does kind of baffle me that Apple doesn't have
1:58:06something
1:58:08Less than the pro display XDR and I know we've been around this several times
1:58:13But I just I keep coming back to and thinking about you know
1:58:16and you guys have said this other people said this one of the great things about Apple in the same way like
1:58:21You with coca-cola and I think John especially said this before
1:58:24that you know, the president is drinking the same coke or diet coke that I'm drinking and
1:58:28the president may or may not be using the same iPhone I'm using and and yet Apple in certain circumstances
1:58:36Is in much to our request is reaching into these?
1:58:41Ridiculous stratospheres where no normal human other than John, Syracuse is buying a seven thousand dollar monitor for his home computer
1:58:49Like why would you do that? That's ridiculous
1:58:52And so I I don't begrudge them having the pro display XDR because we told them we want
1:58:57Professionals to feel catered and they said okay. Well, here you go. You know, you're now we're catering to catering to professionals
1:59:03but that that kind of
1:59:06attainable if
1:59:09challenging level that like I feel like Apple isn't
1:59:13fulfilling that in a lot of spaces right now and that's very frustrating and in in
1:59:19It's like Apple lost a little of that. I keep coming back to like
1:59:22Prestige and I don't know if that's the right word for it. But you know Apple's kind of a prestige brand to some degree
1:59:28you know, it's it's a brand that a
1:59:30regular human can reach out and grab
1:59:32on a regular human income, you know, you don't have to be making ten million dollars a year to buy a really nice iPhone and
1:59:41It bums me out that there's no
1:59:44reasonable Apple monitor
1:59:48For these computers that from from everything anyone has said are unreal. They're phenomenally great computers
1:59:55They're bringing back. Like I'm listening to my friends and listening to press talk about these computers and there's that like I
2:00:02Mean, it's not a glint in the eye because I'm listening not seeing these people but there's that verbal glint if you will
2:00:08That this is this computing got fun again all of a sudden. It's not just incremental every year. This is like this is fun
2:00:15this is this is brand new in a lot of ways and
2:00:18Yet we're mating it to these god-awful displays and it's just and it's just it stinks and I guess it would be less offensive
2:00:25if the market
2:00:27as a whole
2:00:29Catered to these needs, you know if there was some
2:00:31$2,000 and it's not even about the money but for the sake of discussion
2:00:35There's some $2,000 Dell monitor that had like a really nice enclosure and a really nice stand
2:00:40I can still imagine you guys saying well, oh, it's still got the Dell logo in the front or oh, I don't really like that
2:00:47It's black and not gray or it's plastic not metal. But still you know what? It's a great panel. It's a great monitor
2:00:53So whatever not that big a deal, you know what I mean? That's exactly what I did like the problem is
2:00:58The the direction that the market went like for a while
2:01:01Pre retina and pre high DPI for a while the PC monitor market and the Mac monitor market was
2:01:10Compatible and not only in like the technical sense of it that will work
2:01:13but they wanted the same things and the high-end was kind of the same or at least like it was a lot closer and
2:01:20and so for a like for before in the pre retina day is like what PC monitors wanted in the
2:01:2724-inch LCD range was the same thing that Apple monitors wanted in the 24 inch LCD range and then what happened was
2:01:33Apple went retina multiplied everything by 2x and the PC world didn't and
2:01:38Things have diverged in how each one of these worlds handles high DPI monitors whether they even want them at all
2:01:46And then what their priorities are the PC monitor market is
2:01:51largely like either the absolute worst bargain basement crap for business buyers who don't care and just need screens or
2:01:58It's stuff charted at gamers and gamers have very very different priorities like for gamers
2:02:04It's much more about high refresh rates and about yes high pixel densities
2:02:09but not as high as Apple goes because those are harder to drive at high frame rates and
2:02:13And so the markets have diverged now and so now
2:02:16What Apple users want and need and prioritize is?
2:02:20Not at all satisfied by what the PC makers are making to satisfy their market
2:02:25So there's basically no one left to solve this need
2:02:30Except either Apple themselves or in the case of like this LG monitor and many of their peripherals by say Belkin
2:02:37some third-party manufacturer where Apple has basically like handed someone the
2:02:43Parts and market to make the thing themselves that Apple doesn't really want to make
2:02:48Like, you know, obviously these LG monitors were designed with Apple's help and and they're obviously
2:02:54There might even be a business deal to
2:02:58Where LG makes these for Apple as part of some contract because Apple wanted us to exist
2:03:04But didn't want to bother having to make and sell it and support it themselves
2:03:06So who knows how that worked out?
2:03:09but clearly like there were some cooperation between the two companies to make this same thing with all the stupid little adapters that Apple kind of
2:03:15Co makes with Belkin that Apple doesn't want to sell themselves and
2:03:19Yeah, so that's that's what happened with the monitors and it's a shame because if the monitor situation was better if Apple
2:03:27Still did what they did forever. We should sell a good monitor in the you know
2:03:3327 inch to 30 inch range for you know, 1500 bucks 1200 bucks, whatever it would be
2:03:39That would be amazing and the monitor that like and the panel that they could sell is what they've been shipping in the iMac
2:03:47since
2:03:492014
2:03:50Like this is not new this is it's not like the technology is just cutting edge and they can only fit it in an iMac
2:03:55No, maybe that might have been true in 2014. That's not true now
2:03:59Because obviously the LG can make it. So obviously Apple can make it too and
2:04:04It's just so frustrating that they're just choosing not to like I like what you said about like, you know
2:04:09They they are leaving these huge gaps. I've I've kind of thought
2:04:13When looking at certain products, you know when looking at the AirPods Pro Max for sure
2:04:18When looking at certainly the Pro Display XDR the Mac Pro and even you know, like their accessories business
2:04:25Like all the the weird super expensive iPad cases and stuff the super expensive
2:04:30MagSafe double charger thing that the duo that doesn't include the power break. It almost seems like there's two apples. There's one
2:04:39one side of the company is
2:04:42getting pretty good or has been pretty good at
2:04:45delivering decent value and
2:04:48There's other side. Not only are they not even trying but like it's almost spiteful
2:04:54How bad of a value they're delivering
2:04:56Or how much of a market they are intentionally leaving?
2:05:01Totally unaddressed, but I don't think that's necessarily profitable. Like yeah, you know what happens when Apple charges
2:05:09$129 for a little bedside charger. Most people don't
2:05:15Get forced into buying it and go like I guess I'll reluctantly give Apple $129
2:05:21No, they just buy something else from some third party on Amazon for cheap. Like that's that's what actually happens here
2:05:25if somebody needs a monitor and
2:05:27The only one Apple sells is seven thousand dollars
2:05:30Almost nobody except jerks like me and John are gonna be like, okay, I guess I'll buy that reluctantly
2:05:36No, most people are like, well, I'm just not gonna buy that no matter what you say or do or no matter what I need
2:05:42so I'm gonna find other options and
2:05:45It's a shame because that's really just lost business for Apple at the end of the day and it's worse products for everyone else
2:05:51But not much lost business
2:05:53Like that's the reason like the the thinking that leads them not to make that thing is the same thing that leads them not to
2:05:58Make Wi-Fi routers and all these other things where even Wi-Fi routers had a bigger mark in this like Apple most computers
2:06:03Apple sells come with monitors the ones that don't are the Mac Pro, which is now you're already in the market for a $7,000 monitor
2:06:10So that's a perfect match set there. No, there's no discount there. Right the Mac mini, which is like well
2:06:14That's a weird ass computer that nobody uses and you know
2:06:17Let them fend for themselves the whole point is you bring your own monitor and keyboard or use in a data center or whatever
2:06:21Definitely like a sideshow and then all those people with laptops who just buy Dell 4k monitors that Marco doesn't like because everything is the wrong
2:06:28size but no one else cares or they buy those really big wide monitors like that overlap between like what the PC monitor market is
2:06:34Fits fine for people who just who want one of those big curved monitors and don't care and hook it up to their laptop
2:06:39And so what's left what's left is weird people and now we're like Marco or me conceivably
2:06:45Where you have this very specific desire like you buy a monitor to list computer from Apple or you want to use it with your?
2:06:52laptop
2:06:53But you don't want any of the PC ones because you don't like the curves and you want the DPI to be
2:06:58What you expect it to be and it's like it's getting narrower and narrower and it's like I feel like Apple learned from making like
2:07:03the Thunderbolt display the 24 27 inch Thunderbolt display and
2:07:0624 inch Apple LED display before that they just don't sell a lot of those monitors because people look at those just like the weird
2:07:13$129 bedside thing they're like I'll pass I'll buy a Dell monitor right and who's left just you know
2:07:19just the people who want an external monitor which is already a fraction of a fraction and just the people who are willing to pay the
2:07:26Admittedly not ridiculous Apple premium for a monitor instead of just buying the cheap Dell that is the wrong shape or whatever
2:07:33So the bean counter perspective on why they don't make this make sense
2:07:37Same way it does for getting out of printers or Wi-Fi routers or whatever because everyone looks the Wi-Fi route and like oh
2:07:43I like that one, but I'll just buy the cheaper
2:07:45You know links this router right?
2:07:47But the the thing that everyone's missing that the bean counter perspective missing is sometimes you got to make products that don't particularly make sense
2:07:54on a spreadsheet
2:07:56Just to give a better sort of cohesive product story right it satisfies your most loyal most stupid
2:08:03Customers who are willing to spend tons of money
2:08:05They become evangelists for your brand and even if you lose money in every single one of those
2:08:105k Apple displays that you make in the grand scheme of things in the long run it helps your business and that
2:08:15That pitch is the one that you need to make inside Apple to make this happen and it seems like
2:08:20That pitch has been a tougher and tougher sell
2:08:23I mean it's the same kind of pitch that made Apple take its eye off the Mac
2:08:26It's like yeah
2:08:27But we make all money off the iPhone and we just need to satisfy
2:08:29Existing Mac users are some minimal level and they learn that lesson of like no you actually have to
2:08:33You have to put more in than you think to the Mac market even though
2:08:36when you you know when you look those line graphs like the Mac is in the mix with like I don't know like
2:08:41Whatever other products that is in the mix with it's not you know
2:08:45It's it's like the iPhone and now services and then the other products Apple makes you know
2:08:49Charging bricks and also the Mac, right?
2:08:52Kind of the same level of stuff
2:08:55But but it's like you have sometimes you have to spend more than it seems like it's worth to keep
2:09:01To keep the ball rolling right and they learned it on the Mac
2:09:04But they haven't learned it on the sort of accessories thing
2:09:07the sort of the idea that you want to provide a holistic Apple experience Steve Jobs seemed to be into that because he liked the
2:09:13Idea of being able to sell you all the things even though the vast majority customers aren't gonna buy all the things, right?
2:09:19but having all the things on offer I
2:09:21Think makes your product and brand more valuable. I mean obviously has a drug line somewhere like maybe probably Apple shouldn't be making printers anymore
2:09:29right, but a
2:09:31Monitor for your computers that matches them that almost nobody's gonna buy that you're already
2:09:35Have the panels for that you're using in your iMacs, right?
2:09:38That I feel like is a small reach just making iMac no chin. No computer guts like it's right. It's right there
2:09:44It doesn't it's not that much more and you're like, but I can't justify those development expenses
2:09:48No, you probably can't you're probably gonna make it back right but do it
2:09:52Anyway, because it makes your most loyal customers happy and it looks good in product shots and consider it part of your marketing budget
2:09:58There Apple, there's my pitch hire me
2:10:00[beeping]