00:00:28 ◼ ► Like, when there's nothing in activity monitor or iStack menu showing it's actually using the CPU, it's now idling at like 72 degrees Celsius and like 13 to 1400 RPM fan speed, which is not normal.
00:02:23 ◼ ► And in both cases I loved them for a while, but they didn't age incredibly gracefully because of the all in oneness. Like, you know, the first one I had, I had a screen problem and it's, I, you know, it took a while for me to be able to go get a fix.
00:04:06 ◼ ► And so I don't I don't know if I want to attempt that, especially in a dusty, salty air environment that's highly corrosive in a house that I have very few tools and no abilities to open iMacs, you know, effectively and cleanly.
00:04:21 ◼ ► It's probably a bad idea. So I'm probably not going to want to attempt that myself. So the the end of the world, notwithstanding, would it be cheaper to fly a Stephen Hackett to you to perform this operation and then fly him home?
00:04:39 ◼ ► Well, it would probably be more practical to just, you know, go take my iMac, put it in the carrying case, walk it to the ferry, get on the boat, go across the bay, go to the nearest Apple store, drop it off or I guess I could do mail in.
00:05:42 ◼ ► I mean, I really am. I have been very tempted to just switch to my air full time somehow, even though it only has one terabyte. And, you know, I could use externals, I guess I could I could make that work with some hacks and then just somehow solve the monitor situation.
00:06:25 ◼ ► What if the most compelling computer for me in the next year ends up being an iMac again, then I bought this giant monitor with all this money for, you know, only six months of use. And then like that's that's a pretty big loss and a pretty big waste.
00:06:40 ◼ ► I think like I would have trouble swallowing that. Whereas if I just either had a Mac Mini that I could plug in or something like that or plugged in my MacBook Air to the LG 5k. I don't like swallowing something about all these plans.
00:06:56 ◼ ► But I think using all of the hardware I already have that is like the LG 5k just sitting in my house like in Studio B doing nothing. I could just use that. And that's that's probably what I should do.
00:07:19 ◼ ► So, Jon, would you mind going to apple.com/shop/trade-in? I'm curious if you enter in, Jon, the serial number of your XDR. I doubt it will like magically make it through. And please do not, you know, share that obviously verbally.
00:10:29 ◼ ► The new TensorFlow underscore Mac OS fork of TensorFlow two point four leverages M.L. compute to enable machine learning libraries to take full advantage of not only the CPU, but also the GPU in both M1 and Intel powered Macs for dramatically faster training performance.
00:11:40 ◼ ► Whether you're working on a personal project or managing enterprise infrastructure, you deserve simple, affordable, and accessible cloud computing solutions that allow you to take your project to the next level.
00:13:34 ◼ ► All right, moving on. Jonathan Dietz writes, "After listening to the scaling the Mac, the M1 architecture to higher end machine section from episode 406, I figured I'd send along some cheat sheets of relevant info.
00:13:44 ◼ ► Die size is generally constrained by the reticle limit, which is due to current lithography steppers having a maximum field size of 26 millimeters by 33 millimeters or 858 square millimeters.
00:14:21 ◼ ► With the M1, the storage controller is connected directly to the system fabric and shares the unified memory pool, meaning performance is no longer limited by PCIe x4 connection to the host processor or cache size.
00:15:19 ◼ ► So, anyway, Apple will likely go with four HBM2E stacks for up to 64 gigs of crazy fast on-package memory with the M1X, but would need to tack on an additional eight channel DDR4 interface for any hope of parity with the Intel Xeon or AMD E-PYC. Is that supposed to be Epic platforms?
00:15:39 ◼ ► It's also worth noting that regardless of memory type, the highest density DRAM dies currently available are only 16 gigabit or two gigabytes. Increasing capacity means adding and paying for more dies. There's no way around that.
00:16:04 ◼ ► I always go to numbers because I see Jason Stone makes his graphs in numbers. I'm like, "Oh, Apple's nice. Everything's going to look nice. I'll use numbers to make it." But I cannot figure out how to do anything in numbers.
00:16:30 ◼ ► And I still can't even reverse engineer it. I so don't know how to graph things. And I would say spreadsheets are also terrible at graphing things, especially time series data where spreadsheets have no idea what time is.
00:16:41 ◼ ► They just think, "Oh, this is the first column. This is the second column, the third column." No, but they're time values. They're separated by time. Can you graph them over time? And it's like, "Nope."
00:16:54 ◼ ► So what this graph shows is related to something we discussed. And Jonathan sent us this giant spreadsheet filled with all sorts of information about various different silicon things, CPUs, GPUs, so on and so forth.
00:21:56 ◼ ► So it's not to diminish the M1 again, they just in the cheapest MacBook Air you can buy it has 60 gigabytes per second memory bandwidth, which is faster than the 40 in the most expensive Intel MacBook you can buy.
00:22:27 ◼ ► Right. So talking about more of the benefits of the of the RAM being unpackaged, you can clock faster, it's closer, quote unquote, closer by and you have less latency and so on and so forth.
00:22:45 ◼ ► So first on the topic of like, wow, the unpackaged memory has such amazing bandwidth or whatever high end CPUs today typically have at least eight channels of DDR4 offering 400 gigabytes per second of bandwidth.
00:24:23 ◼ ► How much do you think that capability actually means to their customers? So Wade says is what I actually suspect is that they'll simply go with on package only, placing the capacity limit on something on the order of 128 gigabytes.
00:24:35 ◼ ► And I think the performance will be astounding thanks to the same kind of three times higher clock frequencies, et cetera, not to mention all their performance advances from the rest of the system.
00:24:44 ◼ ► So that's like this is where we're talking about. Is it feasible? How much could you get on package if money is almost no object? 128 gigabytes, probably feasible, but it would be really fast, 128 gigabytes.
00:25:02 ◼ ► I believe that Apple believes that they can get away with this by focusing on the end results, other domination over Intel and any and every performance benchmark, which they can trivially achieve from anywhere they are.
00:26:01 ◼ ► So that was the end of Wade's comment. I have a few of my own to add for we've got so much feedback about here's how I think we can make bigger and better and faster max based on ARM chips.
00:27:52 ◼ ► That's why within a single CPU, it is easier to deal with cache invalidation than it is with two entirely different chips on separate parts of the board that have to do that same task, but they're farther apart, have more latency, and they can't optimize the way they do this.
00:28:25 ◼ ► What does a low-effort Mac Pro look like? I don't mean this to be insulting, but like, what if you needed to make a Mac Pro to serve the same needs as the current Mac Pro, but you just didn't want to spend some ridiculous amount of money to do the cool things that Wade was saying,
00:28:38 ◼ ► where you make this giant chip that has, you know, 128 gigs of unpackaged RAM and this amazing performance, and it's just this amazing bespoke beast that just has inside of it little bits from like the A14, but in general is this huge beast.
00:28:50 ◼ ► What if you didn't want to do that because it's just too much money? How do you make a Mac Pro with sort of the parts on hand? Let's assume you have something that's like an M1X that is beefy enough to be in an iMac or whatever.
00:29:02 ◼ ► Or you're willing to do that level of work. The low-effort Mac Pro is rip out the unpackaged RAM and use an AMD GPU and ship it, because you've got the M1 quote-unquote system on its chip, the RAM is in a bunch of DDR DIMMs, and the GPU is from AMD, your trusted partner for GPUs, and you write drivers to the AMD GPU, and you use the RAM and those giant banks that have tremendous bandwidth because it's very expensive and there's too much money.
00:29:31 ◼ ► It's very expensive and there's 12 slots and there's huge DIMMs in them, and you're done. That's it. That's the low-effort Mac Pro. It would have better CPU performance than the current Mac Pro. It would have equal capacity.
00:29:50 ◼ ► One of the things that are bad about the current Mac Pro is the CPU is slow. The GPU is actually as good as whatever you can buy and stick in there. It's as good as you can make it. Apple does not have anything that competes with the top-end NVIDIA AMD GPUs.
00:30:22 ◼ ► I think it's a machine that has a cooler, faster CPU, but has all of the same capacity. And thanks to the wonder of interchangeable parts and slots, the boring old "Hey, I've just got a bunch of PCI slots," suddenly you can put a 6800 XT in there, which is an amazing new GPU from NVIDIA.
00:30:50 ◼ ► Big Sur doesn't even ship an ARM version with any drivers for any GPUs other than the Apple integrated one. Like, the writing is on the wall that you're never going to see a third-party GPU in an Apple Silicon-based Mac.
00:31:03 ◼ ► We don't know the answers to those questions yet. All I'm saying is the low-effort Mac Pro is right out there as an option, it is entirely technically feasible, and I think it's actually still a good product, even if it's a little more boring.
00:31:34 ◼ ► Right, exactly. So, if they hadn't said that, I would possibly think this might be even further out. But yeah, they did say that. But truly, the lowest effort would be just keep shipping Xeon workstations at the high end.
00:31:48 ◼ ► But again, that's not their style, and that's not what they're going to do. I do also think that they're going to keep having slots, and they're going to keep having interchangeable modular architecture.
00:32:14 ◼ ► Most of the feedback here was actually very interesting to me, because most of the feedback was way above my head, like way above my knowledge and expertise from people who really know what they're doing in this area.
00:32:58 ◼ ► And granted, those are like Intel's prices, there's some profit margin there that Apple would be able to absorb into their total product price, but still, you're talking thousands of dollars in manufacturing costs just for that CPU.
00:33:11 ◼ ► But while most M computers, like most of the M-based Macs, I think are going to have no expansion possibilities whatsoever internally, like you're going to see similar things to the M1, soldered on RAM that's on or near the package, only GPUs that are built into the package, that are built into the, actually on the chip.
00:33:33 ◼ ► I'm not expecting to see any kind of, you know, other thing than that. Now that I've heard from all these listeners, and now that I see how big chips can get and still be part of like kind of mainstream products, I now no longer think they're going to kick the GPU off the CPU.
00:34:02 ◼ ► I think seeing the benchmarks of the M1 in various scenarios, because people are just really benchmarking the heck out of it these days, the M1 wins everywhere until a real GPU comes walking along.
00:34:15 ◼ ► You're like, well, who cares about that? I don't care about gaming. There's a bunch of video apps that do a lot on the GPU, and you'll take a slower, crappier Intel Mac and put a decent GPU in it, and it suddenly becomes twice as fast at like 8K video rendering or whatever, right?
00:34:31 ◼ ► So, you know, it doesn't mean that Apple won't make that GPU, but they don't have anything that competes with that so far, and I do wonder if they have the will to do that, and especially given AMD's new GPUs, because when it was just Nvidia, it seems like Apple's just totally on the outs with them.
00:34:47 ◼ ► They're not going to do anything, but the new AMD GPUs and the new architecture, it's the same architecture that the new consoles use as well, but bigger and beefier, they're really good, and so in a top-end iMac, if someone buys that, they're not going to want it to be slower than their current iMac, and a lot of the tasks are GPU-bound, so I'm pretty well convinced that there has to be a discrete GPU in the top-end iMacs.
00:35:11 ◼ ► Otherwise, the ARM-based ones will be slower than the current iMacs for these kinds of tasks. Now, again, Apple could make that GPU, but we don't even have a hint of them doing that, so I'm leaning pretty heavily towards a discrete in the top-end iMac.
00:35:25 ◼ ► Yeah, I mean, maybe. I didn't realize there was that big of a performance gap, so yeah, that's very possible, but regardless, I think almost every other Mac has everything in or around the package, no separation of anything, and then only at the very high end, I think that's when you get separation, and it doesn't make sense.
00:35:46 ◼ ► Again, it doesn't make sense for the Mac Pro to exist if there aren't expansion slots, and Apple really, I think, very strongly communicated that that was the direction they intended to stay now that they rebooted the Mac Pro, they got it back on track, that Pro's like, "I think they're going to keep expansion slots,"
00:36:06 ◼ ► so I still think that's going to stay in that product, but I would be very surprised if any other Mac had any kind of expansion or nearly any kind of separation between the components at this point.
00:36:19 ◼ ► Final bit of follow-up on the making Macs bigger, faster, stronger. Something to keep in mind with regard to die size, cooling, and everything else is that TSMC, who manufactures Apple's system-on-the-shifts, TSMC is not Intel. TSMC continues to make process advances.
00:37:32 ◼ ► I think one of the plain English ones from Tunafish on Hackers News was, "Risk production means that the foundry says, 'Okay, we think everything is fine now, but we make no guarantees that it will work.'
00:37:48 ◼ ► "Super-expensive wafer starts that might or might not work. You might luck out and have lots of great next-gen chips months before your competitors, or alternatively, you might get five working chips out of each $10,000 wafer."
00:37:59 ◼ ► So that's what risk production means. So 2023 is the time horizon when conceivably, if you wanted to be on the bleeding edge, this would not be Apple, although for really low volumes, who knows?
00:38:11 ◼ ► Conceivably, at very low volumes, at high risk, you could get 2nm parts out of TSMC, which means that the 2024 Mac Pro, all the numbers we gave you about die sizes and everything like that, that's why in the graph where we pointed out that the A14 is actually smaller than the A13 despite having more stuff in it.
00:38:53 ◼ ► So expect every couple of years to have, maybe for the next couple of rounds, to have a process shrink and to have that process shrink ripple across Apple's products and really sort of give us continuing benefits.
00:40:27 ◼ ► So, as you know, Microsoft does not officially support any of Apple's ARM Macs with Windows, despite the fact that Microsoft itself has a version of Windows that runs on ARM and they have their own hardware that runs on ARM.
00:40:44 ◼ ► And so if you run ARM windows on an M1 Mac in this QEMU virtualization environment, it's about twice as fast as the fastest actual native Windows ARM hardware you can buy because Apple silicon is better.
00:41:16 ◼ ► I feel like Apple wants Microsoft to support Windows on Macs just because for the same reason Apple put that time and energy into boot camp, because it's something some of their customers find valuable and it makes Macs more valuable and more versatile.
00:45:21 ◼ ► And it's also good in contexts where what you're mostly going for is the voice assistant and not necessarily music listening or where the quality of the music being played isn't that important.
00:45:41 ◼ ► The whole reason you buy HomePods is that they sound pretty good and if you really wanted the voice assistant part as the primary role of it, you're probably going to want an Alexa device instead because they're generally better at that.
00:51:01 ◼ ► Unfortunately, it's nearly four times the price officially. And so I think if you can actually have the HomePod, the full-size HomePod, at its frequent sale price of $200-ish, that's a fantastic buy.
00:51:32 ◼ ► If you have a roll in your house that you want to fill with a very small smart speaker that is not that expensive and is not that good sounding, but where that might not matter or you might not care, it's a good buy.
00:51:48 ◼ ► I'll give it that. But that's a lot of ifs. And if you want something to like, you know, play music in your kitchen or something, the Echo is going to be better for that or the full-size HomePod.
00:52:26 ◼ ► I would strongly suggest if you have, you know, a roll in maybe the smaller rooms in your house where you're mostly playing podcast and you don't care about sound quality, yeah, go for it. It's nice. It's inexpensive.
00:52:48 ◼ ► But people don't really need these things to be super small. So did they make it super small because Apple, even though nobody was really asking for it to be quite this small if it's going to sound quite this mediocre?
00:53:09 ◼ ► Because one of the reasons it sounds so bad is that it doesn't have a separate woofer and tweeter. It has only one driver and then it has these "passive radiators" on the sides to kind of enhance bass response.
00:53:21 ◼ ► I don't know enough about speaker design to know what those do, but every other speaker in this price category has multiple speakers inside. There's usually a subwoofer and a tweeter or a woofer and a tweeter at least.
00:53:34 ◼ ► And so if they prioritized size here, I think that was the wrong move. If they could have shipped something with better speaker drivers and maybe more of them at this price point, I think they should have.
00:53:56 ◼ ► So a couple of things that I wanted to touch back on. First of all, you had made mention that you don't have an Echo Dot. We have year old Echo Dots, so it would not at all surprise me if these are now out of date.
00:54:08 ◼ ► But I can tell you with a fact, they sound like trash. Which is fine. If we're going to put on music on the Echo Dots, it's because we're trying to get multi-room going and we just want seamless music throughout.
00:54:23 ◼ ► And we only have these upstairs. So we just want seamless music throughout the upstairs. We are not listening, like what is it, the Maxell or whatever it was called that I've mentioned before, the advertisement with guys with his hair blown back.
00:55:02 ◼ ► And so if you're saying with your comparatively tinny music preferences that they're not very bassy, someone who likes something that is less bish and more, I don't know, like bassy, that could be quite the deal breaker.
00:55:17 ◼ ► Yeah, I mean again, if you care at all about music sound quality, this is not a product for you. Period. End of story, that's it. And generally in the world of smart speakers, they don't sound great.
00:55:33 ◼ ► Because again, part of the physics mentioned earlier is every one of these speakers and the whole industry of soundbars, which I also hate soundbars. What an amazing branding for such a stupid concept.
00:55:47 ◼ ► The soundbar problem, which is the same problem that almost every smart speaker has, is that they try to play tricks to defeat physics, to try to make a wider soundscape basically. To simulate having multiple speakers in the room when you're actually broadcasting sound just from one point.
00:56:08 ◼ ► And so you have to do things like try to bounce the sound off the walls or in the corners or whatever. And while that's a real thing, you can indeed bounce sound that way, in practice, it doesn't work very well in most rooms.
00:56:30 ◼ ► Similarly, all these speakers try to somehow sound okay while broadcasting from one single point in a room. Oftentimes that can't be the ideal space that you maybe want to put a speaker if you cared about sound quality.
00:57:34 ◼ ► And even though the regular HomePod, the full-size HomePod almost eliminated that curve. Like you don't have to grade that on a curve. You can just grade it as a nice speaker and it does pretty well for its price point.
00:58:08 ◼ ► If it could have had significantly better drivers in there and maybe two separate ones, that would have gone a long way towards sound quality. And if it made it a little bit bigger, oh well, nobody cares.
00:58:18 ◼ ► I just want to add that while you were talking about this, my wife messaged me to say, quote, "Siri sucks." Now here's the thing. Is she listening to the show live and wanting to chime in about the fact that Siri is not as good a voice assistant as Amazon Echo? Or is she just living in my house where Siri exists and occasionally does things that annoy us?
00:58:41 ◼ ► There's no way to tell. Because very often people in our house will have complaints about Siri that are unrelated to listening to a live podcast. So yeah, Siri's still got some catching up to do.
00:58:51 ◼ ► Oh, and we've fired our Sonos stuff and it's so good. I'm so happy without the bug. Sonos makes some good products. The Sonos amp is awesome. I love the Sonos amp. It's a stereo speaker amp with AirPlay 2, with TV inputs and analog inputs. It's wonderful. I love my Sonos amp. That is what drives my TV speakers.
00:59:14 ◼ ► The reason I love the Sonos amp is that it doesn't have any smart integration. And where the Sonos products really fall down is the ones that integrate the Alexa support and try to make these combo voice controlled smart products. I don't know what it is about that integration, but it's buggy.
00:59:30 ◼ ► All the reviews, people were complaining about the Alexa integration being buggy. And I thought, oh, maybe that was just like, you know, beta 1.0 software issues. And maybe they've made it better now, like, you know, multiple years in. No, they haven't. It's still really buggy.
00:59:45 ◼ ► And the Sonos move, I feel the same way about like, we have one of those, I just want to sell it now. Like I want out of that entire ecosystem. Anything in that ecosystem that has a voice support, I want out of it. So I'm just going to be unloading those things probably.
00:59:58 ◼ ► But the Sonos amp is wonderful because it keeps it dumb. It lacks both the buggy Alexa support and any reason to ever use Sonos' apps for anything. So it's great. Like I just use it as my TV speaker and it's an AirPlay 2 destination. It's wonderful and that's it.
01:00:28 ◼ ► Alright, so I got my kind of red iPhone 12 mini. The back of it is not even close to red, but that's okay. I never look at the back. The sides are red and they are delightful. And every time I see the aluminum sides of my phone, it just makes me smile. I love the way this phone looks.
01:00:49 ◼ ► In the hand, it feels fantastic. In the pocket, it feels even better. I have been using it without a case so far. I have the Apple case. I figure kind of, you know, maybe just like if I can ever travel again, I'm probably going to want a case. Or maybe I figured I might try it for like a week and see what I like better.
01:01:08 ◼ ► The screen size is great on the mini. You know, I don't feel like I've lost any screen real estate because I didn't. Like they did just shrink the 10, 10S and 11 Pro screen to fit this size now. So like screen real estate wise, it's the same. They just made the pixels smaller.
01:01:27 ◼ ► Now on the small pixel side between the 12 mini, which is shrunken the pixels and my new MacBook Air, which I'm running at its default resolution. Whereas compared to my 16 inch, I ran at its native resolution, which is larger pixels.
01:01:44 ◼ ► I'm looking at everything a little bit smaller now and I'm starting to feel, hmm, I'm 38 and a half now. I've never worn glasses, but I don't have many years left of not needing any vision correction and having good uniform vision.
01:02:05 ◼ ► I can kind of feel it slightly slipping away. And as I am using these two new devices that have more dense screens than what I was using before, I'm noticing that. I'm noticing like, hey, this is a little bit harder to read than it might have been a few years ago.
01:02:21 ◼ ► Even though what I've just done is go back to the density of all the phones before the 10. Like that's what this density is. It's the same density that the 6 and 7 had. But I am kind of thinking like this might be a one year thing because I might have issues with just looking at very small things within the next year or two.
01:02:45 ◼ ► You can crank up the zoom though, right? Didn't ask you during set up which size you prefer? Well, I can, but then I lose screen real estate and that I would be less willing to lose that possibly. But I mean, we'll see.
01:02:54 ◼ ► But you still keep the good hand feel and the good pocket feel, right? Yeah, maybe. I'm kind of hoping that maybe in future revisions they might reduce the weight of the middle Pro line a little bit because they're so dense and heavy.
01:03:09 ◼ ► And I feel like I got worse this year anyway. So otherwise, though, like it feels wonderful grip wise. I'm still getting used to not having a leather case because this is the first time I haven't had a leather case since the 5S.
01:03:23 ◼ ► I'm still getting used to like picking it up off with the edges and having I kind of still feel like I'm going to drop it all the time. So that's another reason why I might try the case. Another reason is that in my previous caseless days, the phone would rest flat because there was no camera bump.
01:03:46 ◼ ► That's one of the main reasons I use a case these days. I demand that it both lay flat and not make me nervous about scratching it. But laying flat, yeah, that's why I really was upset by the Apple leather Pro Max case, which adds a bump on the bump.
01:04:00 ◼ ► So even when you get the case that doesn't lay flat, I was afraid that would be true of all the cases, but apparently not on the non-Max size of Apple cases and certainly not on the Sena case that I'm using. Laying flat is a major feature.
01:04:12 ◼ ► Yeah, exactly. And also just like having a little bit of that tackiness grip when you're on a surface. Like I think I'm ultimately probably going to go with a case, but I want to try cases a little while longer because it just feels so good.
01:04:43 ◼ ► And ultimately if I'm going to like ever travel with this phone, which honestly it's probably not going to be a whole lot of that, but if I'm going to ever travel with this phone, I would probably want some kind of like MagSafe battery.
01:04:57 ◼ ► If Apple would make that, that would be awesome. I don't know. I don't think anyone else has made one yet, but that would be great. Like a little like thing you just stick on the back for charging in your pocket sometimes, but not all the time. That would be wonderful.
01:05:17 ◼ ► So I haven't tried that yet. Cause ultimately what I want for MagSafe is something that is stationary on the nightstand that like I don't want their weird little travel wallet they unveiled for way too much money yesterday.
01:05:43 ◼ ► That's been another issue with the mini with dock like things. If you have a dock that's made for quote unquote normal phones, the mini is so small that depending on your luck, it may be that the coils don't align as well because the mini is shorter. You know what I mean?
01:06:06 ◼ ► I don't think this is a big problem. Panzer posted about it when it first came out, but it is something to keep in mind because the mini is so different than the average size phone. If you just have a generic phone charger or even worse, a charger that is custom made to fit like a galaxy note or some other huge thing. Be careful and think about it before you buy it.
01:06:24 ◼ ► Yeah, so otherwise, like other than like, you know, the battery being a little bit low and you know, having having a dilemma on whether I want to use a case or not. Otherwise I'm loving this thing.
01:06:46 ◼ ► And so for things like watching video and stuff, it's like slightly worse than the big phones. But ultimately, you know, we're talking about what a half an inch or something or like a one inch screen size difference.
01:06:59 ◼ ► That's a lot proportionately, but you're still watching video on a tiny screen. And so if you're trying to decide whether you want to watch video on a tiny screen or a tinier screen, like it's they're both massive compromises compared to like a TV or even a laptop.
01:07:14 ◼ ► So that almost doesn't matter at all. Camera wise, so far, I have not missed the 2x camera that much. I have taken pictures where I have zoomed in digitally, but usually not to the full 2x.
01:07:39 ◼ ► And there have been some pictures where, you know, we take pictures like around dark dinner table like we took our Thanksgiving dinner pictures around our dark table and Tiff had her max and I had my mini and her pictures did look better.
01:07:56 ◼ ► And so from my point of view as as a much more casual iPhone photographer, like I don't I don't I'm not a pro iPhone photographer. I barely posted Instagram. I am, you know, I don't shoot raw. I don't use halide or any of the fancy apps that people who are really good at this stuff use.
01:08:12 ◼ ► I just shoot with the building camera and occasionally tweak the photos a little bit and occasionally post some of them to Instagram. But even then, it's pretty rare. And so from my point of view, the 1x camera is great and digital zoom when I need it so far has been okay.
01:08:28 ◼ ► If there were a 2x option on this size, no question, I would pay extra for that. I would definitely take that. But there isn't. And so ultimately, I do like the size a lot, even despite that.
01:08:40 ◼ ► Finally, the speaker seems to be like some of the reviews tried to say that the speakers were kind of comfortable between them. They're not the speaker on this one is a little bit lower volume and a little bit worse than the bigger ones, but it's not a big difference.
01:08:56 ◼ ► It's it's not a difference that I would consider fatal and I use the speaker a lot, mostly for podcasts because it sounds like an echo dot for music. So anyway, ultimately, I'm very happy with it. I'm a little scared that no one's buying it.
01:09:13 ◼ ► Because when I look at my stats in Overcast, there's not a lot of 12 mini compared to the other ones. So I'm a little worried about that this might be like a one off thing. And like they might not make another one next year or ever.
01:09:30 ◼ ► If that's the case, if this is not like a regularly updated product line, I'm not going to like hang on to this forever. I don't love it so much that I would do that. Like if there if next year, the lineup is similar, but without a mini option.
01:09:43 ◼ ► I'll just go back to the you know, the smallest pro like I have for the last few years. But if this is still an option next year, I'll probably take it because it just feels so good. It's so light. It's so small, but it's not too small.
01:10:01 ◼ ► It doesn't feel too cramped. I haven't had problems like with the keyboard accuracy or anything like that. Like, it doesn't feel too small. It's just right on that edge. But it's not. So ultimately, I'm very happy with it.
01:10:14 ◼ ► And and yeah, we'll see. We'll see how the rest of the year goes. We'll see like what I think about it. If I travel with it, I'm sure the battery life will be a hit there. We'll see you know how the lack of the 2x camera plays out over the year. But for at least this year, I'm very happy with it. I'm very happy with the almost red color that I picked. And yeah, I guess I'll keep you posted on my exit interview, at least at the end of the year to see what I think what I think then
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01:12:24 ◼ ► So whether it's for you or somebody else that burdens off your plate. So start it, you can see for yourself what you can do there by starting a free trial site right now at squarespace.com/ATP.
01:13:00 ◼ ► All right, let's do some Ask ATP like for real this time. Matthew Taylor writes, "Is it possible to disable the fan on the new M1 MacBook Pro? Does Big Sur contain a setting for such or do you know of a third party app that can do so, thus forcibly restricting system-wide performance to a fan-off thermal envelope?
01:13:25 ◼ ► I understand the question, but I have a few problems with this. First of all, anyone I have heard, read, spoken to who has one of these says that the fans almost never kick on, first of all.
01:16:23 ◼ ► First of all, I don't have particularly strong feelings about the touch bar. Like, I don't think it adds anything, but it doesn't actively piss me off like it does a lot of people I know, including you, Marco.
01:16:34 ◼ ► But I thought to myself, well, you know, I should use Better Touch Tool for doing cool stuff. And I think we spoke about on the show, you know, that one of the things I did was put like a little emoji representing whether or not the garage door was open on the touch bar.
01:16:46 ◼ ► Not because it needed to be there, but just because I thought it was a neat thing to try. And it worked. But I personally found Better Touch Tool to be extremely unreliable and very crashy and just did not work well with the touch bar at all.
01:17:25 ◼ ► Yeah, I mean, in all fairness, the touch bar is very buggy and crashy and unreliable, even stock. But yeah, I am so happy with this laptop. Not having a touch bar to me is like not having a fan. Like it's just it's wonderful.
01:17:39 ◼ ► Here's this thing that occasionally annoyed me and now it's just gone. Wonderful. And I was thinking too, like it's probably going to have a longer lifespan because there's no moving parts.
01:17:51 ◼ ► Like, you know, I'm having this problem with my iMac being filled with dust after three years. Laptops have that problem too. Many people frequently have problems with their laptops, like where the fans spin up like crazy way more than they did when they were new.
01:18:03 ◼ ► And some of that's, you know, because of weirdness and, you know, maybe thermal compound degrading, but some of that's also because stuff is really full of dust in there and it's hard to get it out.
01:18:11 ◼ ► And so when you eliminate the fan, you eliminate not only the noise and annoyance of that, but so many problems that could occur in the future as you use this machine for years and years that I think, you know, ultimately the main limiting factor of this is probably going to be the battery lifespan, not anything else about it unless, you know, it gets damaged.
01:18:30 ◼ ► Because there's just nothing about it to really go wrong. And that's yet another feature of the Air. And again, you look at the lineup and, you know, going back to this Ask ATP question that I really interrupted, sorry, Casey.
01:18:41 ◼ ► Like, I'm with you, like, if you're looking into the MacBook Pro, the current one, the 13 inch, you know, kind of mini MacBook Pro, and you're worried about the fan noise, just get the Air.
01:18:54 ◼ ► I mean, even though people have said that it's really hard to make the fan turn on, like, if that's going to be a main priority for you, just get the Air, because it's nearly the same computer.
01:19:12 ◼ ► Like, the reports basically say that even though the fan is spinning, it's spinning so slow that you can't even hear it. If you have a 2015 MacBook Pro and you're annoyed by fan noise, don't use that as a way to measure how you're going to feel about the MacBook Pro with the M1.
01:19:27 ◼ ► Just get the MacBook Pro with the M1 in it. All reports have said, you will, if someone just tells you it's fanless, you won't even know. Because even when people are running benchmarks for 10 minutes, it was like Gruber was saying he literally could not hear it.
01:19:38 ◼ ► He put his ear right up to the thing. Running a benchmark, he couldn't hear it. The fan is in there, and it is spinning, but it's spinning so slow that it's not going to be anything like your dust-filled 2015 MacBook Pro.
01:19:50 ◼ ► So if you want the M1-based MacBook Pro, just buy it. If you want to be sure you're not going to hear a fan, get the Air. But I don't want to steer people away, because all the reviews have been unanimous in saying, like, yeah, it's got a fan, but don't worry, you won't hear it. It's not like the fan on your current Intel MacBook Pro.
01:20:11 ◼ ► Oh, yeah, you can get software to turn off the fans. In fact, I forget which app I use, but I did it on my Mac Pro. I can stop all the fans on my Mac Pro, which is not advisable. You can watch the temperatures just go up, right? But yeah, you can do that, but don't. Please don't do that.
01:20:27 ◼ ► Now, I have a question. So the way those programs, like CoolBook, the way those used to work is they would interact somehow with the power management unit of the computer. I don't know what mechanism they could do that, but I would expect, first of all, I would expect all of that to be different on the M1-based Macs.
01:20:51 ◼ ► Yeah, they update pretty quickly. Remember when we were going through this with my Mac Pro? It took a while for any app to support fan control, but eventually, because it's the Mac, you're not limited in the same way you are on iOS devices. So yes, it is an M1 and it's new and they'll have to come up with new stuff, but they will do it. There's nothing that's stopping them.
01:21:07 ◼ ► Unless they don't have access to it. Unless there is no API they can call to modify that on the M1 architecture, which is possible. Anyway, so I'm curious though, Jon, because the way those used to work is they were able to adjust the minimum speed so they could speed the fan up, but they couldn't slow it down beneath what the unit wanted to run it at.
01:21:30 ◼ ► If temperatures reached a certain level, the system would enforce its minimum speed no matter what you told these apps to do. So all these apps could do would be to increase the speed so that maybe you could, if you wanted to, the reason why it's called CoolBook, is you could run your laptop cooler by having the fan blow faster.
01:21:52 ◼ ► So I didn't play the full game of chicken to see, hey, what happens if I just leave it like this? But you could put it into manual control. I think the app I was using was TG Pro. You could put it into manual control and it basically gave you sliders.
01:22:04 ◼ ► And you'd hear what the fan level is at now and you'd move the slider down and it would get quieter and then you'd watch your temps start going up. Right? So clearly it's whatever I'm doing, I'm making it be below what it would want to go because the temp would start climbing and climbing.
01:22:17 ◼ ► And then I'd just put it back into automatic because I didn't want to see what would happen. I didn't want to find out where the limits are on my very expensive computer. But I'm pretty sure that it really was bringing the fans down to below where they wanted to be.
01:22:31 ◼ ► It could be that the default mode is above the minimum. To your point, maybe there's a minimum and they don't run at the minimum. They run in the middle. But it did give me a slider and you could slide it all the way to the end. It did make it quieter and it did make the temperatures go up.
01:22:51 ◼ ► As another quick aside from the Ask ATP that will never end, I recorded using prior sponsor channels. I recorded a couple of things, a couple of the holiday specials off ABC and I was running them through Final Cut Pro in order to take the commercials out.
01:23:07 ◼ ► And I rendered them, these are like 45 minute, maybe an hour, 10 minute total television programs and they were 720. The source was 60 frames per second which I did not keep and I cranked it back to 30 I believe.
01:24:06 ◼ ► What about hardware encoding? What about hardware encoding? Yes, it has hardware encoding. I know it does. I have no idea why Final Cut Pro, yes, it's not Final Cut Pro 10, it's just Final Cut Pro now.
01:24:23 ◼ ► Was it using the hardware? Because the hardware is not infinitely capable and I'm not sure under what scenarios Final Cut Pro will choose to use the HEVC encoder that's in the Intel CPU versus not.
01:24:41 ◼ ► And that may have been, in fact I think that might have been it now that you say that, but either way, I have encoded like H.264 stuff, I've re-encoded as HEVC in order to save storage space on the other end.
01:25:04 ◼ ► It depends on what we're talking about. I take your point, but it depends on what we're talking about. But nevertheless, I can do, I can usually on the iMac Pro get anywhere between 1x and like 3x with the CPU doing HEVC encodes.
01:25:34 ◼ ► I don't know, whatever. Hearing all these people saying, "Oh, I can render in Final Cut Pro so fast." It was quite the sales pitch for me getting a new Mac, which hand to God, I do not want a new Mac.
01:26:02 ◼ ► Well, so that's interesting. That's actually a very interesting question because I, sitting here now, I really don't have any need or desire, he says with little confidence, to change my iMac.
01:27:59 ◼ ► I don't know. I just don't care for it. I don't like it. Half the time I end up there, it's for a paywalled article, and I don't even know it until I land there, which I guess isn't any different than the web.
01:28:22 ◼ ► The reason everyone has animosity towards Apple News is when we see an Apple News link, we're like, "Oh, I don't want to tap that and launch into a dedicated app for this special kind of URL that is worse than a web browser, that is more annoying to use than a web browser, and makes the article look worse."
01:29:06 ◼ ► That's the right way to do this. If people were sharing links on Twitter and it was like a net newswire, you know, NNW colon slash slash, we'd be annoyed by that, too, because that's not the right way to do it.
01:29:17 ◼ ► If it's a link, if it's a URL, and it's a web page, take me to the web page. Don't take me to an Apple News app that embeds a web view that shows a weird version of that web page. Apple News is bad.
01:29:36 ◼ ► I can be your own little private place where you go to see things, but don't send, especially as for things like Twitter, if you want to send it to someone through messages and you know they're also a diehard Apple News user, fine, go for it.
01:29:53 ◼ ► Yeah, I feel very similarly. The news is almost always designed to be read in web browsers, and for all of its faults, as John was saying, for all the faults of the web, the web browser is an incredible application.
01:30:09 ◼ ► And we've all developed habits and expectations on how web browsers work. And you mentioned earlier, Casey, you don't like how you swipe back and instead of going logically back in the hierarchy or the history, it goes to some other article.
01:30:24 ◼ ► And that feels wrong, because you're looking at the content and it feels like a web browser, but worse. And if you're going to read web content, read it in a web browser. That's what it's for.
01:30:49 ◼ ► And you're going to have capabilities that are wrong. Like, one of the things I love about web browsers is you can just pop up in some new tabs or you can hit Command-F and find stuff on the page real fast.
01:32:05 ◼ ► one of the little rules that we try to enforce whenever reasonably possible is we don't like taking sponsors from services that are subscriptions of some kind of product where you pay per month and you get a box full of dog toys or whatever.
01:32:51 ◼ ► This is forced into this app for Apple's business reasons, not because it's better, not because News wants to be in this weird special app that takes over this certain type of link and that kind of makes it hard to behave normally as a web browser.
01:33:08 ◼ ► They're not doing that because it's better for you, the customer. In some ways it might be, but in most ways it's either more limited or more annoying. They're doing that because it's better for them.
01:33:27 ◼ ► I don't like that kind of thing. If something is better or native to a certain way of doing things or a certain platform or a certain type of app for viewing or consuming it, I want it in that kind of app.
01:33:39 ◼ ► I don't want to have it in some weirdo special thing. That's why I don't listen to podcasts on YouTube. I use a podcast app because that's what podcasts want to be in and it's way better and it works the way you expect and that's it.
01:33:53 ◼ ► That's why every major podcast or every major audio platform is now adding podcasts for reasons and they're trying to cram it in like, "Oh, use our app to listen to this particular show that we just bought."
01:34:08 ◼ ► Or, "If you have this particular type of fridge, you can listen to our podcast that this podcast production company we just bought that can only play on our fridges." Nobody wants that and if you have the option of not doing that, I generally will want to take that option.
01:34:25 ◼ ► I like for things to be in the place, in the app, whatever it is, where they make the most sense, where they are native and where they can be full featured and follow expectations. And Apple News breaks a lot of that and that's why I don't like Apple News.
01:34:42 ◼ ► Kevin Duran writes, "Since M1-based computers have arrived, all tech announcements related to traditional non-system-on-a-chip computers already sound old and unexciting. It seems that on an infinite time scale, almost all computers will switch to using ARM-based systems on a chip. This has me wondering, are discrete component motherboards the internal combustion engines of computing? How dare you, sir!"
01:35:02 ◼ ► On an infinite time scale, you know, you get the heat death of the universe. You don't get a lot of these SECs, unfortunately. This is an interesting question because it, uh, I mean, what Kevin is pointing out is just a general trend in this part of the technology sector, which is as we are able to make smaller and smaller transistors, as the process shrinks or whatever, you need to spend those transistors on something.
01:35:28 ◼ ► And it turns out that if you can suddenly fit something that used to be an external chip into the, you know, the CPU or whatever, for example, putting the memory controller into the CPU, putting a GPU into the CPU, like this process of taking chips that used to be elsewhere on the motherboard and putting them into, uh, not an even bigger chip, but a chip that is more or less the same size, but now you can fit more stuff in it, has been going on for decades and will continue to go on.
01:35:53 ◼ ► It doesn't mean, as this process has happened, it doesn't mean that suddenly you have zero, you know, it's just a motherboard with one chip on it because you get other chips that are elsewhere, like the, you know, the cell modem or whatever. Oh, well, you can integrate that.
01:36:04 ◼ ► Like, so this, this process will continue, but, and it may eventually get to the point where essentially you have one chip in certain devices and then just analog stuff outside of it, if we're not already there in some scenarios, but it's not a new trend.
01:36:18 ◼ ► And to give an example of that, we should put this link in the show notes, an acronym from my childhood and that I also found in my schooling at various points is VLSI. Do you know without looking it up what VLSI is?
01:36:31 ◼ ► That's right. Um, and this is another, this is kind of like the, uh, high bandwidth memory. Uh, if you make up a name like this, like very large scale integration, that sounds impressive, at least they didn't say ultra or whatever, but they did say very, very large scale integration.
01:36:46 ◼ ► A term coined in the seventies, uh, with the idea was that you take a bunch of what used to be the street components, transistors. I don't know if you've ever seen a little black little, uh, pencil eraser thing with three metal leads coming out of it.
01:37:08 ◼ ► So all those little transistors used to be there and now they're in one thing. That's very large scale integration. They burned that term and now we can't use it for like, but just for the idea of an integrated circuit of not having separate transistors. Right?
01:37:24 ◼ ► Yeah. So, so this consolidation trend will continue as long as we are able to make smaller and smaller transistors. Eventually we won't be able to make smaller and smaller transistors and this trend will stop and who knows, maybe we'll use DNA based computing or something. I don't know.
01:37:38 ◼ ► There's other other avenues we can go on, but transistors will not get smaller forever because physics. Um, but for the foreseeable future, uh, we will continue to spend our transistor budget, uh, on putting more stuff into the one main chip, which we now call a system on a chip.
01:38:02 ◼ ► And like, oh, we cross the threshold and you say, oh, now it's a system on a chip. Now, whatever the arbitrary definition you want to say, well, when you put this in, then it becomes a system on a chip. But yeah, we're going to see more stuff going in or the other direction you can go is, well, you can just keep making the GPUs bigger because you can basically make GPUs bigger forever and spend all your transistor and power budget on it.
01:38:19 ◼ ► But, um, it is advantageous to have more and more things integrated. This is another question, by the way, of like, we've been talking for a couple of years now about Apple making its own cell modems for its phones, which is a difficult thing to do.
01:38:32 ◼ ► And they started on it many years ago and they bought Intel's business for doing that. Right. And we fully expect if not in the next iPhone, and certainly the one after that, that Apple won't be using chips from Qualcomm for its cell modem. It will be using its own.
01:38:44 ◼ ► Could that be integrated into the system on a chip? Maybe, but there are analog components to cell modems that may not be easy to fold in. So maybe still be a good idea to have it outside.
01:38:57 ◼ ► But those are the type of things that you can imagine being sucked into that. And as for discrete components being internal combustion engines, no, because they will always be discrete components because it doesn't make sense to put literally every single thing into the system on a chip.
01:39:12 ◼ ► We just talked about DRAM last time because DRAM is manufactured in a slightly different way. It doesn't make sense to try to do sort of, you know, the, the, the manufacturing system to use for the logic and then a separate manufacturing system to use for the DRAM to try to put that on the same die.
01:39:28 ◼ ► It's not always going to make sense to do that. So there were, there were almost always be components, even if it's just like the stuff that's like all the capacitors and the analog components for the power supplies that are outside the system on a chip. That's still going to be out there. Even if it looks like it's dwindling as we pull more things into the system on a chip, we come up with new ideas for put it to put in that board space. So.
01:39:49 ◼ ► Thanks to our sponsors this week, Squarespace, Linode and Bombas, and thanks to our members who support us directly. You too can join, not, you know, you too, the number two, you also can join at atp.fm/join. And we'll talk to you next week.
01:40:06 ◼ ► Now the show is over. They didn't even mean to begin. Cause it was accidental. Accidental. Oh it was accidental. Accidental. John didn't do any research. Marco and Casey wouldn't let him. Cause it was accidental. Accidental. Oh it was accidental. Accidental.
01:41:09 ◼ ► If you're listening to this now and you're just now, you weren't paying attention earlier, but now you're composing that email to tell me what a bread box is, just stop. I knew it when it was coming out of my mouth, Mike. I can hear, I can hear the tweets going now. You don't know what a bread box is. You've never seen a bread box. Here's a photo of the bread box on my countertop right now. Why don't you have a bread box? You're missing the point of the joke.
01:41:29 ◼ ► It's silly that the thing we use for 20 questions and charades or whatever to assess the size of things is a bread box, which despite you knowing what it is and despite my grandmother having one, is not the first object that springs to mind for size comparisons, but for whatever reason. Bread box got 20 questions, right? Is that the context in which you know bigger than a bread box?
01:41:53 ◼ ► I believe so. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cause like, is it bigger than a bread box? That's, that's the, yeah. What do we want to talk about? Do we want to talk about a slack? There was a request in the chat room to talk about Tesla, which I really, really don't want to do because I can't handle the feedback. No. What did Tesla do? Do they, besides the weird tequila thing, uh, full self driving is real, man. It's real. Is it all self driving? I think it's been real like 10 times. Is the, they put a big mission to accomplish banner behind. Yeah.
01:42:22 ◼ ► Uh, it's real. It's real and it's in beta. Yeah. Oh great. That's something I want to beta test. Yeah, exactly. You're already, you're already beta testing and mark on bad news. Yeah. I mean, honestly I haven't kept up with this. A couple of people have mentioned this and frankly the only people have heard about it from our Tesla owners. So this hasn't even made my sphere outside of Tesla people being like, Ooh, I've got full self driving now or whatever. So I'm not even sure what's different to be honest.
01:42:51 ◼ ► I haven't. This is the first I've heard of this story, but I haven't been paying attention. I, the last thing I saw about full self driving is a bunch of angry Tesla owners saying that it's the worst $5,000 or whatever they ever spent in there. Super angry about it. And that made me happy because they're learning that the thing they have in their car now will not drive the car for you.
01:43:08 ◼ ► I love that you're saying that. Meanwhile, TKZ in the chat says it's pretty impressive. It's a limited beta. So is it good? Is it bad? Who knows? Drive your own car people until the car drives itself. That's men. And don't trust the alarm when he tells you that it does because he's been saying that for many years now.
01:43:27 ◼ ► Well, there's been so many asterisks on it and there still are like that every time they make progress, they do something that's very technically laudable. Like it's very impressive, but it still isn't full self driving, which is what the feature is called.
01:43:44 ◼ ► And like, and every time they get, you know, every time they get like one step closer to that, they call it full self driving. It's like, well, okay, can it actually drive with no interaction from here to there? No matter what I mean by here and there, no matter what it accounts, you know, what it encounters in the meantime.
01:44:10 ◼ ► It's not great because the closer it gets to that without reaching it, it's the uncanny valley, the more dangerous it becomes because the more it lulls the user into thinking that it really is, they really can take a nap, but they can't do not nap.
01:44:21 ◼ ► That's the thing like all kidding aside, like what, what level are we talking about? Because to me, if this isn't at least level four, which is defined as you can take a nap, then it's not self driving.
01:44:33 ◼ ► I thought that was level five. I thought level five was you can take a nap. No, this isn't level five. That's what I thought too, but then I was corrected that this is not level five. So this is very much not full self driving. This is full ish self driving.
01:45:03 ◼ ► I am, but, but that's that or see, that doesn't make sense to me. I guess we should have looked into these SAE levels earlier because like if you don't need to pay attention, then why does that need to have a steering wheel?
01:45:18 ◼ ► Oh, here we go. Here we go. Reading my should just keep reading. That's that's the that's the trick, you guys. However, self driving is supported only limited spatial areas like being geofenced or under special circumstances.
01:45:31 ◼ ► So here's the thing. If it says that no attention is required, that's not true. Because if you fall asleep and it ends up running, it gets off at a highway exit and then comes to a dead stop in the highway exit and you're asleep in the car because it's like, well, I'm I'm I've I've exited the area where I know how to drive.
01:45:53 ◼ ► I mean, even if all the Tesla's pull over after the exit and say, well, all our drivers are asleep, but we can't drive any farther. I don't like level four level five or bust. And so far it's all been bust.
01:46:05 ◼ ► Yep. And I don't know, it didn't like somebody in the chat is saying, oh, well, it means it level four means you have a few minutes before you have to take over so it could like wake you up or whatever.
01:46:16 ◼ ► This is like the it's like the worst version of like, don't worry, you'll be needed soon, but not now. But you don't have to pay attention. But you do have to be wakeable. But like, oh, it's like how many is like trying to get kids up for school.
01:46:41 ◼ ► Reminder to everyone listening that if you think that the car can drive for you, but at any moment you will be called upon to take over. You can't do that. No one can do it. No human can do that. It is against human nature. It is against the functioning of your brain. It is an incredibly dangerous situation.
01:47:00 ◼ ► Drive your car until it can drive for you. There is no way you can maintain that level of vigilance over a long car trip. Your attention will wander. You will not be ready to take over in time and you will die. Don't do it. Hands on hands on the wheel.
01:47:15 ◼ ► Agreed 1000% and please, for the love of God, please don't email us. Please, please. I don't care. I'm telling you, I don't care and I know this sounds rude. I realize that this sounds rude. I am genuinely so thankful when we get feedback because it means that you're listening. It means that you care enough to correct us or to give us new information.
01:47:37 ◼ ► Except the Tesla people who are all the worst. So I don't care. Don't email me. Thank you. I love you. Are you including Marco in that? He's one of those Tesla people. Not that he drives anywhere anymore. Yeah, right. I mean, but I have to acknowledge that I think of all the customer, I don't know, communities or groups that I'm in by, by like the things I buy or like, I think being a Tesla customer is the worst one of those things. Like, because like the rest of the community is so bad about fish.
01:48:05 ◼ ► And I know lots of people who own Teslas who are not part of the like fan base. They're like me, they own it and they like their car, but they don't participate in the community or fan base aspects of it. I mean, frankly, that's pretty much how I am with fish to like, like I, I'm not, I don't go to the shows. I'm not super into like any of the communities around it. I don't know anything about the smoke, the pot.
01:48:30 ◼ ► I do. Yeah, I don't do any of the drugs. I don't like, I just listen to the music and that's it. And I love the music and that's where, that's where my interaction ends. And with Tesla, like I love driving the car. It's a great car. That's where my interaction ends. Like I don't, I do not want to talk about Tesla on Twitter with people. I don't want to follow what Elon Musk is doing in his, in his side projects. Like I don't, I don't want to do any of the experimental features.
01:48:54 ◼ ► I've never used summon even because like, here's another thing that here's another way I could destroy my car and it achieves a benefit I don't need. So no thanks. I don't, I won't try that. Thanks. Like I just, I don't care. I just don't care. It's a great car. I love driving it. That's, that's the extent of the involvement that I want with this brand.
01:49:15 ◼ ► And that's what's like the relationship I have like with the brand of scissors that I buy. Well, you know what I, when I buy, when I need scissors, like, you know what I do? I buy some scissors and I don't know a damn thing about the brand. I just know I like these scissors and I buy them and that's it. Like that's how I am about my car. I like this car. It's a great car.
01:49:33 ◼ ► I don't care at all about the company. Don't want to argue about it. Don't want to talk about all their weird, you know, side projects they're doing and their beta features that almost kind of sort of fully work like nope, don't, don't care about that. I just like the car. It's a great car. I like driving it.