401: Sandwich-Closing Force


00:00:00   - Have you ever been in a position where you haven't

00:00:01   messed with a portion of your own code for awhile

00:00:04   and you think that something should be there

00:00:05   that just straight up isn't there, and you're like,

00:00:08   hmm, this is weird. (laughs)

00:00:12   'Cause I'm diving into Pikabie, which I haven't been

00:00:13   looking at for awhile and I'm looking for something

00:00:15   and I'm not finding it and that's freaking me out.

00:00:17   - Maybe you added it in a dream.

00:00:19   (laughs)

00:00:20   I've had that happen a couple times.

00:00:23   - How is the code that you've written in your dream?

00:00:25   Does it make sense?

00:00:26   - I mean, I think it's pretty good,

00:00:27   like best case, you added it in your dream

00:00:30   and you remember how you did it so you could

00:00:32   just do it again, but worst case, it's like,

00:00:33   I added it in a dream and I was so happy

00:00:35   to have that thorny problem solved,

00:00:36   but I don't remember how I did it.

00:00:37   (laughs)

00:00:38   And then it's just like, well, in a dream,

00:00:40   you can kinda gloss over the details,

00:00:41   'cause you know, it just, whatever, dream logic,

00:00:44   but then in real life, you actually have to have the code.

00:00:46   - I have occasionally, I don't think I've ever actually

00:00:49   coded in my sleep, I have, however,

00:00:51   fixed bugs right before falling asleep many times,

00:00:55   you know, as my brain is clearing itself out for the night,

00:00:57   right before I fall asleep, I will occasionally realize,

00:01:01   oh, either I will discover a bug in my,

00:01:05   like right before I go to sleep,

00:01:06   where I will realize, oh my god, wait a minute,

00:01:09   in this case, then this case happens,

00:01:11   and I didn't account for that, or that's gonna be wrong.

00:01:13   It happens so often that Tiff can tell

00:01:17   when I am being kept awake by this,

00:01:21   and she will just say, just go fix it, just go,

00:01:24   and I'll be like, all right, I'll get up out,

00:01:26   get out of bed, go to my computer,

00:01:28   write down whatever to write down, or do what I have to do.

00:01:31   It's a thing, totally a thing.

00:01:33   - Now, but important question, though,

00:01:34   do you have your lights on while you're doing this,

00:01:36   or are you doing this in the dark?

00:01:38   (laughing)

00:01:40   - The crazy way that you podcast

00:01:42   in your dark cave of sleepiness,

00:01:45   I don't know how you do it, and stay awake during the show,

00:01:47   'cause like, you know, we do this at night, I don't know.

00:01:49   I have, I've been doing a lot of,

00:01:52   so Casey, you started the conversation about

00:01:54   how you've been looking at very old code

00:01:56   that you wrote forever ago, and having, you know,

00:01:58   being surprised by it.

00:02:00   Over the last couple days,

00:02:02   for reasons that aren't very interesting,

00:02:04   I have been basically tearing apart

00:02:05   some of the foundations of Overcast's UI code,

00:02:08   and like, and sync code, and stuff like that,

00:02:10   and it's kinda like the point in the project

00:02:14   where you've had just parts all over your floor for days,

00:02:19   and the thing, I couldn't even build it for like a week.

00:02:24   What I was doing was, for again, uninteresting reasons,

00:02:27   I was taking my five year old Objective-C app delegate,

00:02:32   and I was bringing it into the modern environment

00:02:36   of scene-based APIs, and Swift at the same time.

00:02:41   - Oh, that scares me.

00:02:42   - And so I was, I rewrote my giant app delegate

00:02:45   from Objective-C into like three or four

00:02:49   different Swift classes that are now using the modern API,

00:02:53   and much cleaner, and I had to do a lot more Swift

00:02:57   to make this happen.

00:02:58   I just today, like a few hours ago,

00:03:01   just got to the point where it now builds and runs,

00:03:06   and it seems so far to work.

00:03:08   I haven't done a lot of testing yet,

00:03:10   but I have finally gotten the thing back together again,

00:03:13   and it's a glorious feeling when you've been literally just,

00:03:17   you know, it was the kind of change where like,

00:03:19   all right, the first thing I do is rename my app delegate

00:03:22   and pull it from the build.

00:03:24   So then you see the hundreds of things that break.

00:03:26   (laughing)

00:03:28   And then you wait for the ability to,

00:03:31   all right, well I fixed that error, you know,

00:03:34   if I, at best I can like search and replace

00:03:36   for this constant note that no longer exists,

00:03:37   but otherwise I just gotta hit build

00:03:39   and just see what happens, and oh, here's five more errors,

00:03:42   and fix those, and hit build again, oh,

00:03:44   here's something I have to write in Swift,

00:03:45   and here's something I have to figure out a new way to do it

00:03:48   'cause it won't work this way in Swift or whatever,

00:03:51   and I think I have it back together.

00:03:55   But this has actually been a really interesting exercise

00:03:58   in modernization of my code for one thing,

00:04:01   which itself is, you know, a fun thing to do,

00:04:04   but also learning more about Swift,

00:04:06   getting more into the Swift mindset of,

00:04:09   how do you do this weird--

00:04:10   - Sorry, I couldn't hear what you said.

00:04:11   - What the? (laughing)

00:04:13   Nice, nice.

00:04:14   - That was from my watch.

00:04:16   Oh my God, what?

00:04:18   - I don't know, learning about Swift?

00:04:20   That doesn't sound like--

00:04:21   - I wasn't even pushing the button.

00:04:22   - Sounds like the activation word.

00:04:23   - God, Siri's the worst.

00:04:25   Who's looking forward to the new HomePod?

00:04:28   - I have not bought a HomePod yet to this day, not one.

00:04:31   - I actually, I am very curious to hear the HomePod mini.

00:04:35   I think I will be ordering one as soon as I can

00:04:38   just because I am so curious about it,

00:04:40   but I, 'cause honestly, again, as I mentioned last week,

00:04:44   I love the first HomePod for certain aspects of it,

00:04:49   but yeah, Siri, unfortunately, is not one of them.

00:04:52   But the sound is great, and if the little one

00:04:57   actually does sound at all reasonable for 100 bucks,

00:05:00   then it could be quite useful, but we'll see.

00:05:04   - I don't think we forgot to mention this last time,

00:05:06   but you can pair the little HomePod minis to each other

00:05:09   in a stereo pair, but you can't pair a big one

00:05:11   and a little one, so you've gotta have the same kind

00:05:14   for pairing, for stereo pairing.

00:05:16   - I mean, in all fairness, you can get three and a half

00:05:18   of the little ones for the price of one big one.

00:05:20   - You can play the same music simultaneously across them,

00:05:23   each as mono, essentially, speakers,

00:05:25   so it's not like if you have a house with some big ones,

00:05:28   some small ones, you can still play on all of them at once,

00:05:29   but you can't stereo pair them.

00:05:31   - Yes, that's true.

00:05:33   But yeah, I'm actually, I've been away from my HomePods

00:05:37   for a few months, and last time I visited them,

00:05:40   I realized how much I love their sound.

00:05:43   So I've been using, I guess that's still the pre-show,

00:05:46   sorry for topic structural reasons, but--

00:05:49   - Are you though? - Oh, no.

00:05:50   - I've been using the, I think I mentioned recently,

00:05:52   I've been using the Sonos One, which is,

00:05:56   it's basically Sonos' little 200-ish dollar smart speaker,

00:06:01   and it has Alexa built in, and you can pair a pair

00:06:05   of those together to make a stereo pair,

00:06:06   and so that's what I've been using in my main kitchen area

00:06:10   to get sound, and the Sonos One is an okay product.

00:06:14   What's great about it is that it has the Alexa voice

00:06:17   assistant, which I think is generally the best voice

00:06:19   assistant, and it also has AirPlay 2.

00:06:23   For whatever reason, Amazon doesn't wanna work

00:06:26   with Apple directly to build in AirPlay 2 support

00:06:29   into the actual Amazon Echo family of products,

00:06:32   I don't know why, I mean I can guess,

00:06:34   it's corporate BS reasons, but I wish they would.

00:06:37   As far as I know, the Sonos ecosystem is the only way

00:06:39   to get something that has the Alexa voice assistant

00:06:42   and AirPlay 2, but because it's not an actual Amazon Echo,

00:06:47   it's like a built with Echo, supports Echo, whatever,

00:06:50   Alexa built in, it's kind of a second class citizen

00:06:53   with the Alexa functionality, and most of it is in ways

00:06:56   I don't care about, but there's been two things

00:06:59   that have been kind of irritating me

00:07:00   about the Sonos One system.

00:07:02   Even though they are about the size of a HomePod,

00:07:05   and even though you can stereo pair them,

00:07:07   they don't sound anywhere near as good as HomePods.

00:07:10   The Sonos One is a really okay sounding speaker,

00:07:14   that's the best thing I can say about it, it sounds okay.

00:07:19   - But I thought Sonos, I was gonna say made all its money,

00:07:22   but that's not fair, but became popular

00:07:24   because it was the fancy person's speaker

00:07:27   because it sounds so good and it auto-tunes,

00:07:30   well not auto-tune, but you know what I mean.

00:07:31   - That's not quite it, I mean the reason Sonos

00:07:35   got really big early on was first of all

00:07:37   that they had this cataloging app,

00:07:40   so you could basically have a music server

00:07:43   somewhere in your house, and they've always been very big

00:07:46   in custom integrators, like people who you hire

00:07:48   to build yourself a whole house audio system

00:07:51   or a custom home theater, which is a business

00:07:54   I don't actually know anything about

00:07:55   'cause I've never used it or seen it,

00:07:57   but I know it's a big business.

00:07:58   Part two, which was probably the biggest part,

00:08:00   is they mastered multi-room audio

00:08:03   before pretty much anybody else did,

00:08:05   and they have a large range of products

00:08:07   they've sold throughout the years,

00:08:09   most of which are very expensive for what they are,

00:08:11   but it was kind of like what Apple offers

00:08:14   of you'll pay a little more for this thing,

00:08:17   but you'll have this integration of this ecosystem,

00:08:19   and if you're really in the ecosystem, it's great

00:08:21   for those purposes.

00:08:24   These days though, multi-room synced audio

00:08:27   is kind of table stakes for a lot of these platforms.

00:08:29   Many things offer it, and it doesn't seem

00:08:32   like Sonos is any better than anyone else's

00:08:34   in ways anybody would notice.

00:08:36   Their speakers, some of them sound good,

00:08:39   some of them are okay, some of them,

00:08:41   the Sonos One is their lowest end speaker.

00:08:44   It is their simplest, lowest end thing,

00:08:46   it's their cheapest thing, and it shows.

00:08:49   It seems like a product that is made

00:08:51   by a company that doesn't wanna be making it,

00:08:53   which might be what the HomePod Mini ends up being.

00:08:56   We'll see when we can hear one.

00:08:58   Anyway, problem number one I have with the Sonos One

00:09:01   is that it only sounds okay,

00:09:03   and I think these days, that is not good enough.

00:09:07   The market has heated up, they have way more competition

00:09:10   for $200 price point for a smart speaker.

00:09:14   It should sound better than it does.

00:09:17   And then problem number two, I mentioned the Alexa thing

00:09:20   being kind of second class.

00:09:22   It's a little bit buggy.

00:09:25   Sometimes home voice assistant bugs

00:09:28   are ways that I can tolerate.

00:09:30   Like, if it occasionally gives me a stupid answer

00:09:33   to a question, or occasionally thinks it's been hailed

00:09:36   when it hasn't been, I'll forgive that

00:09:38   as inherent to the technology.

00:09:40   But this week, our Sonos One started losing timers.

00:09:45   When you tell your voice assistant to tell you

00:09:48   in nine minutes that the eggs are done

00:09:50   so that you can not over boil your hard boiled eggs,

00:09:53   and then about 12 minutes later you're like,

00:09:56   did I set the timer?

00:09:58   And you ask it, hey, timer status,

00:09:59   and it says there are no timers set.

00:10:02   And you're like, oh no.

00:10:03   At first you might blame yourself,

00:10:05   because dear listener, we are not perfect.

00:10:08   Sometimes we forget to tell Alexa to set the egg timer.

00:10:11   Okay.

00:10:13   But fortunately, this thing is useful/creepy enough

00:10:17   that if you go into the app you can see a history

00:10:20   of what you have said to it,

00:10:21   and conveniently what it has said back to you.

00:10:24   And so you are able to see, and you can check and verify

00:10:27   that yes indeed, 12 minutes ago you did say,

00:10:31   hey Alexa, set a timer for nine minutes.

00:10:34   And then it said back to you, nine minute timer set.

00:10:37   So you're able to verify, oh it got the timer.

00:10:41   It just didn't keep the timer.

00:10:43   So that happened and I thought, well that's weird.

00:10:46   Let me try it again.

00:10:47   So like a few hours later I was in the kitchen,

00:10:49   I was like, let me just see, I'll try it again.

00:10:52   Set a timer on that, raise my watch,

00:10:54   set a timer on my watch too, to remind me,

00:10:55   otherwise I totally forgot that I even did it.

00:10:58   Sure enough, lost it again.

00:11:00   And eventually I'm like, all right, this is weird.

00:11:02   So I unplugged them, both of Sonos' ones,

00:11:04   plugged them back in.

00:11:06   As soon as they booted up, three alarms went off in a row.

00:11:09   (laughing)

00:11:10   For tires.

00:11:11   - Nice.

00:11:12   - And they occasionally have other weird bugginess

00:11:15   like you'll tell it to stop playing audio

00:11:19   and it'll interpret stop as play the next track.

00:11:23   - What?

00:11:23   - You'll say stop and it'll stop.

00:11:25   Then it'll start playing something else.

00:11:27   And then you'll say stop again

00:11:28   and it'll start playing something else.

00:11:29   And it just gets, it's just buggy enough

00:11:34   in annoying ways on a regular basis.

00:11:37   But then losing a timer, to me,

00:11:39   that's like a catastrophic failure.

00:11:41   That is like, the one thing I am here in this ecosystem for

00:11:46   is kitchen timer.

00:11:47   It's like, that is like the biggest thing that,

00:11:49   it's the biggest thing that the Echo is usually

00:11:52   extremely good and consistent at.

00:11:54   So I've decided we're gonna fire the Sonos ones.

00:11:58   And I'm going to bring two of my home pods here

00:12:01   and replace that pair with those.

00:12:04   And since we are a family of split opinions

00:12:07   on kitchen and voice assistants,

00:12:09   we have ordered one of the new Echo balls.

00:12:12   And that will be our kitchen timer/Tiffs music device

00:12:17   in the kitchen.

00:12:18   And I will use the home pods.

00:12:20   And that will be that.

00:12:21   A good question from Rifalo in the chat,

00:12:24   why not home pod minis?

00:12:26   That's a great question.

00:12:26   The main answer is, I already have like four home pods,

00:12:30   I think.

00:12:31   - Holy. - Also, it's,

00:12:33   where they're going, it's kind of a large space.

00:12:35   It's like a big open space.

00:12:36   And so I don't think the minis would sound very good there.

00:12:40   I'm going to pre-order one home pod mini

00:12:42   to see how it is.

00:12:44   I need a AirPlay 2 test device in my office.

00:12:47   And that seems like a good one to use 'cause it's small

00:12:49   and it'll give me a chance to see how it sounds.

00:12:52   And my office is a pretty small room here.

00:12:53   So we'll see.

00:12:55   - I kind of want a home pod.

00:12:56   And a lot of the time,

00:12:57   like I definitely don't want a $350

00:12:59   or whatever the normal price is home pod.

00:13:02   And I think it's best buy had or perhaps does on occasion,

00:13:06   put them on steep discount.

00:13:07   And anytime that happens, I'm like, do I want one?

00:13:10   But for better or worse,

00:13:11   and yes, I understand all the implications of it,

00:13:13   but we have an original tall Echo in our kitchen.

00:13:19   And then we have dots in the master bed,

00:13:24   in the office and in Declan's room.

00:13:27   And they've been working pretty well for us.

00:13:29   And they've been sufficient for the needs that we have.

00:13:33   And we'll occasionally play music on them.

00:13:35   And it sounds god awful.

00:13:36   Like I'll be the first to tell you it doesn't sound great.

00:13:38   - I was going to say, please just tell me

00:13:40   you don't play music on the dots, please.

00:13:42   - Oh, occasionally.

00:13:43   And it sounds like utter garbage.

00:13:44   But it doesn't happen that often.

00:13:46   - Play it out of your phone speaker,

00:13:47   it sounds better than a dot.

00:13:48   - Oh, it's not that bad.

00:13:49   - No, it really is.

00:13:50   - More importantly, the thing you just glossed over

00:13:52   is that he's got one of these things in his bedroom.

00:13:54   - That's true.

00:13:55   - That's a line I will not cross.

00:13:57   - I mean, to be honest,

00:13:58   it probably doesn't need to be there.

00:14:00   - I wouldn't do it, but I understand why people

00:14:02   who are like super into the ecosystem do it.

00:14:04   - You just went through on how it has a recording

00:14:06   of everything that you said,

00:14:07   and some of them also keep audio recordings

00:14:09   of everything you said.

00:14:10   And yes, you can purge that and so on and so forth,

00:14:12   but yeah.

00:14:13   - Yeah, it's definitely a little bit gross.

00:14:15   - I mean, as with everything else,

00:14:18   there are trade-offs,

00:14:19   and I don't need to be lectured about how bad this is,

00:14:21   everyone, mostly talking to the people

00:14:23   that are not listening to me, the two of you right now.

00:14:26   But anyways, I haven't had a problem

00:14:29   with the Echo devices in my house.

00:14:32   Occasionally, they'll think that we have hailed them

00:14:33   when we haven't, but that's actually pretty rare.

00:14:36   And we don't use it for music that often,

00:14:39   and so I feel like in so many ways,

00:14:41   even though I want really good speakers from the HomePod,

00:14:46   I want that in my life,

00:14:48   but I don't wanna rely on Apple's person in the tube,

00:14:53   because I know that it stinks.

00:14:55   Like, I use it on my phone, I use it on my watch,

00:14:58   and it's extremely frustrating.

00:15:00   I don't wanna add more of Apple's person in a tube

00:15:03   into my life.

00:15:03   I want less of it in my life.

00:15:05   And so even though I really, really would love

00:15:08   these very fancy speakers,

00:15:09   and I bet they sound phenomenal,

00:15:12   there's no way that I would want to rely on

00:15:17   that as my only shout into the air device.

00:15:20   And I guess I could, you know,

00:15:21   hey dingus on my phone or my watch or whatever,

00:15:24   but again, I don't want more of Apple's person in my life.

00:15:29   I want less.

00:15:31   And so on the one hand, I was gonna make fun of you

00:15:33   for having two different setups in the kitchen,

00:15:35   and how ridiculous it sounds to me,

00:15:38   but I could totally understand how you would end there.

00:15:41   You know, it does make sense.

00:15:42   - Yeah, 'cause like, it's sad,

00:15:44   but like this is, you know,

00:15:45   kind of what we mentioned last week.

00:15:46   Like the HomePods really kick butt in the sound department.

00:15:49   It's not even close.

00:15:51   They're way better than the Echos

00:15:52   and way better than the Sonos.

00:15:55   Again, not even close.

00:15:57   It goes back to what made the HomePod

00:15:58   so such a relative market flop in the first place.

00:16:02   One of them is pretty good sounding.

00:16:05   Two of them are great sounding.

00:16:07   But two of them at their original list price is $700.

00:16:11   And that's a pretty tough sell.

00:16:13   - Right, like-- - That ain't happening.

00:16:15   - At their frequent sale price of $200,

00:16:20   that becomes significantly better.

00:16:23   Like that setup for 200 for one or 400 for two,

00:16:27   that's a really good price for what you're getting.

00:16:29   Like it's great for that.

00:16:32   And I think the official price is now 300,

00:16:35   but you can still find them fairly regularly

00:16:37   for around 200 or 250.

00:16:40   And for that, like I hope that Apple

00:16:44   wants to keep making like high end HomePods

00:16:47   if they keep making Siri better.

00:16:49   Like at this point, I would just take,

00:16:51   even if Siri is as dumb as it always is,

00:16:53   but if it's just faster, like how about just make it faster?

00:16:57   That alone would so dramatically improve how useful it is.

00:17:01   'Cause it's, when you compare it to the Alexa ecosystem,

00:17:03   it really is, it's the difference between like,

00:17:06   when you say like, hey dingus pause, or hey dingus play,

00:17:09   just even those simple commands that you would think

00:17:13   would be able to be processed 100% locally,

00:17:16   simple things like play and pause, basic media stuff,

00:17:19   it has like a two or three second delay to respond to those,

00:17:23   compared to every other voice system is so much faster,

00:17:26   and it responds just with so much more responsiveness.

00:17:30   And so I really just, please make Siri better,

00:17:33   'cause I love everything else about this product line,

00:17:35   just make Siri better, and if you can't make it smarter,

00:17:38   at least make it way faster.

00:17:41   - It's so easy for me to say, I feel like we've made

00:17:44   the speech to each other 100 times,

00:17:45   it's so easy for me to be like,

00:17:46   you're the biggest company in the world,

00:17:47   throw some friggin' money at the problem and fix it.

00:17:49   Like I understand that that's easy for me to say.

00:17:52   With all that said, you're the biggest company in the world,

00:17:56   friggin' fix it, like how is this still a thing

00:17:59   all these years later?

00:18:00   Like I, I just don't get it.

00:18:03   - Yeah.

00:18:04   - And the other thing is, I was talking to somebody

00:18:05   about this the other day, I can't remember who it was,

00:18:07   but you know, you can use the crutch slash excuse,

00:18:11   well, while you see, Apple does much better with privacy,

00:18:14   and that makes it much more difficult

00:18:16   for them to do things in the cloud.

00:18:17   Well yeah, okay, that's true, I'm sure, to some extent,

00:18:21   but like, if you really care about privacy so much,

00:18:24   then when you say, hey dingus, pause my music,

00:18:27   don't send that to the cloud, it's exactly

00:18:29   what you were talking about a minute ago, Marco.

00:18:30   Like, then move some of that on device.

00:18:33   Like these processors, the A14,

00:18:35   we're getting benchmarks now,

00:18:37   and they're phenomenally fast.

00:18:40   Like, why are we needing to send all this to the cloud?

00:18:43   The good news is, we can send it to the cloud super fast

00:18:45   and price in 5G, I couldn't get it out of the straight face.

00:18:47   I was trying so hard.

00:18:49   - Plus.

00:18:50   - I promise that'll be the only time,

00:18:51   I promise that'll be the only time, so.

00:18:53   Oh, it was too good to pass up.

00:18:54   But, you know what I'm saying, like,

00:18:56   I do recognize that I am deeply ignorant in so many ways,

00:19:01   but particularly when it comes to this,

00:19:02   because it is a far harder problem than I'm giving,

00:19:05   it credit for, you know, it is an extremely difficult

00:19:08   problem, especially to do it with the privacy

00:19:10   that Apple wants, but at some point,

00:19:13   like, I don't understand how this isn't better yet.

00:19:16   And in the same way, like, a few years ago,

00:19:19   and sometimes even today, we'll complain about why

00:19:22   Apple software is as unreliable as it can occasionally be.

00:19:25   Like, at some point, how do you not just look around

00:19:28   and say, this has to change, and we have to fix this?

00:19:32   And I get it's a big company, I get things move slowly,

00:19:35   but gosh, I just don't understand.

00:19:39   (electronic beeping)

00:19:40   You wanna start some follow-up?

00:19:42   (laughing)

00:19:43   - Normally Marco gets like one or two of those,

00:19:45   but he managed to wedge in three topics this time.

00:19:48   - Going for a personal record.

00:19:49   - And Casey, you did a good job of stretching it out.

00:19:52   - Yep, that's what we're here for.

00:19:54   Was that a hat trick for Marco, is that how that works?

00:19:56   Anyway, so let's start out with,

00:19:59   apparently there's some patent that flew by

00:20:02   sometime this month about magnetic connectors

00:20:05   for future devices, this is for future iDevices,

00:20:08   Macs and accessories.

00:20:09   I glanced at this and reading the headline,

00:20:13   I assumed that meant something along the lines

00:20:16   of the MagSafe of 2020, but with data

00:20:21   somehow flowing through it.

00:20:22   And then looking at the picture shown in this link,

00:20:25   which of course will be in the show notes,

00:20:27   it looks more like MagSafe of the aughts,

00:20:31   but with other connectors or something.

00:20:34   So John, can you maybe shed light on this

00:20:36   and help me understand?

00:20:38   - So usual disclaimer about patents,

00:20:40   companies patent anything and everything

00:20:42   they can possibly patent because our patent system

00:20:44   is dumb and it incentivizes them to do that,

00:20:46   so this doesn't mean this is ever going to actually

00:20:48   be in a product, but this is just one more example

00:20:51   of using the magic of magnets to make connectors

00:20:54   less fussy, I guess, right?

00:20:57   So we had MagSafe with power on laptops a long time ago,

00:21:00   now we've got the big MagSafe ring on the back of our phones

00:21:03   also with power, but with a contact type of thing,

00:21:07   like I don't know what you would call it.

00:21:09   We call it wireless charging, but there's really a big wire

00:21:11   attached to a big puck and the puck sticks to your thing.

00:21:14   It's mostly a giant MagSafe connector,

00:21:15   but I guess without direct conductive connections

00:21:20   between two, two conductors do not touch each other.

00:21:23   That doesn't have the same ring to it as wireless charging,

00:21:25   what we call wireless charging.

00:21:26   Anyway, this thing looks like, like Asie was saying,

00:21:31   a magnetic connector where conductors do touch each other,

00:21:36   but possibly not limited to just power.

00:21:40   It looks like the type of thing that if you would imagine

00:21:43   that Apple was going to say replace Lightning

00:21:45   with something that's not USB-C, but still have something

00:21:48   that people could squint their eyes at and say,

00:21:50   it looks like a connector, you could say

00:21:52   maybe something like this.

00:21:54   The fact that we're seeing this patent now

00:21:56   and there's no product along with it probably means

00:22:00   this is never going to be a product,

00:22:01   but it's interesting that Apple continues to investigate

00:22:04   approaches like this, using magnets to make connectors

00:22:07   less fussy so you don't have to align them up perfectly

00:22:10   so they don't have these little tiny delicate pins,

00:22:12   I suppose, like they just sort of snap into place

00:22:15   and you can yank them out and all the benefits

00:22:17   that we like from MagSafe.

00:22:18   And this mostly got me thinking about like,

00:22:22   our computers have fewer and fewer ports in them

00:22:24   and fewer and fewer kinds of ports as compared to,

00:22:27   if you look at a PC from the 80s or 90s,

00:22:29   you just count the different number,

00:22:30   like the different sizes and shapes of ports, right?

00:22:33   There used to be a lot, especially on a Mac,

00:22:34   used to be like ADB ports for the keyboard and mouse,

00:22:37   serial ports, which were exactly the same shape

00:22:39   but different pins for a printer,

00:22:41   then you had SCSI ports of different varieties,

00:22:44   sometimes you had a dedicated floppy drive port

00:22:46   depending on your computer, like there's all sorts of,

00:22:49   PCs and Macs had all sorts of differently shaped ports

00:22:52   and fast forward to today and it's just,

00:22:53   especially on Apple's computers, it's just on the laptops

00:22:55   a bunch of USB-C shaped holes, right?

00:23:00   But they're still like plugs, right?

00:23:04   And, you know, a MagSafe was good for power and now,

00:23:07   you know, it's good for power again on our phones,

00:23:09   I suppose, magnetically connecting, you know,

00:23:13   connector designs have advantages,

00:23:16   they have disadvantages too,

00:23:17   they can become dislodged easily and so on and so forth

00:23:19   but it makes me wonder like, if the eventual future

00:23:22   of all kinds of wired connectors,

00:23:26   even just plain old wired connectors

00:23:27   that touch two conductors together,

00:23:29   you know, traditional connectors, might eventually all be,

00:23:33   have magnets incorporated into them in some way.

00:23:35   Obviously it's more expensive to make them that way

00:23:37   and it's, you know, it's probably more difficult

00:23:39   and like there's a whole bunch of reasons

00:23:41   keeping us away from it but the line of connectors,

00:23:44   you know, the sort of trend line has been,

00:23:46   I think to be willing to spend a little bit more,

00:23:50   you know, for like a USB-C style or even like Thunderbolt

00:23:53   or whatever, there's a little chip in the connector,

00:23:55   willing to spend a little bit more for a benefit

00:23:57   in miniaturization, ease of use,

00:24:00   where you can put the USB-C port in either way

00:24:02   and it still works, that costs extra money to do that

00:24:04   as opposed to having it just fit one way.

00:24:06   So all this is to say is that I hope someday

00:24:09   Apple revisits the idea of essentially a data connector

00:24:14   that incorporates magnets just to make it nicer

00:24:17   and easier to use.

00:24:19   - Yep, yeah, I completely agree.

00:24:20   I just still miss MagSafe and there was just a week

00:24:24   or two ago, a time when I think I had tripped over

00:24:27   the USB-C charging cable on my computer

00:24:30   which was sat perilously, more perilously

00:24:33   than it should have been and it almost--

00:24:35   - You? - Took a spill, I know, right?

00:24:37   And it almost took a spill onto the floor.

00:24:39   No, not that kind of spill.

00:24:40   (laughing)

00:24:41   And so, yeah, I miss MagSafe.

00:24:43   Like I understand why it's not here anymore

00:24:44   but I do miss it, the old MagSafe.

00:24:47   But we'll see what happens in the future.

00:24:50   Michael Betts, y'all, wrote, "Accessory design guidelines

00:24:52   "for Apple devices exist and there's a PDF

00:24:56   "where it describes all the stuff about MagSafe

00:24:58   "which is super cool," and I had no idea existed.

00:25:01   - Yeah, this is, I mean, I went to looking into this

00:25:04   because it was a response to my question

00:25:05   of like how strong can the magnets be?

00:25:07   Like what are the requirements for MagSafe?

00:25:09   Could you have a pop socket or a car mount

00:25:11   that is stronger than apparently Apple's cases are,

00:25:14   you know, in terms of how well it attaches

00:25:16   to the back of the thing?

00:25:17   This document tells you if you want to be

00:25:19   a MagSafe connector, here's the maximum and minimum force

00:25:23   and magnetic interference requirements

00:25:25   and how to test whether you're compliant

00:25:27   and all that other stuff, but I don't,

00:25:29   I can't eyeball the numbers and say,

00:25:32   oh yeah, I can tell what that is.

00:25:33   I don't even know what the units are.

00:25:34   So anyway, if you're curious or if you're just trying

00:25:37   to design a MagSafe device, the PDF link will be

00:25:40   in the show notes and you can read all about it.

00:25:42   - Yeah, I tried also to read this document

00:25:44   and realized very quickly that I was in way over my head

00:25:48   and realized, okay, I'll just wait

00:25:50   till the reviews come out.

00:25:51   And fortunately, many reviews have come out already

00:25:53   for MagSafe stuff and the first batch

00:25:56   of iPhone 12 and 12 Pro embargo reviews are out.

00:25:59   And the answer about how strong it is,

00:26:01   basically everyone seems to agree

00:26:04   that it's kind of strong but not super strong.

00:26:07   Basically, it's strong enough to help hold some stuff on

00:26:11   but not strong enough to hold things firmly.

00:26:15   So, you know, not strong enough that if you are

00:26:18   like using it solely as a car mount

00:26:21   and you hit a bump on the road,

00:26:22   your phone will probably fall off of it.

00:26:24   And you can't like, you know, swing your phone around

00:26:26   like a rodeo rope from the end of the cable.

00:26:30   It'll fly off of that as well.

00:26:32   So it's strong enough for convenience

00:26:35   but not strong enough for like really holding it

00:26:38   strongly in place.

00:26:40   - Yeah, it does give a range in the document.

00:26:42   So you could say, well, maybe the cases are currently

00:26:44   at the low end of the range but the range is only 800

00:26:47   to 1100 of this unit that I don't understand.

00:26:49   So clearly the range is not very large.

00:26:51   It's funny because I am not a PopSocket person.

00:26:55   I don't really understand it, which means I'm destined

00:26:58   to have one in like a year.

00:26:59   But nevertheless, I feel like this would be

00:27:02   such a cool thing if you could, you know,

00:27:05   attach a PopSocket simply with magnets.

00:27:07   And based on the reviews and not having one in hand yet,

00:27:11   it sounds like that's unlikely to work out very well.

00:27:15   And I saw, I'm not gonna be able to find it

00:27:16   for the show notes, but I saw a tweet

00:27:18   where somebody was recording themselves putting

00:27:20   a iPhone 12 or 12 Pro with the wallet attachment

00:27:24   into their jeans.

00:27:26   And I guess they had relatively tight jeans on

00:27:28   and the wallet just kind of like slid right off

00:27:30   as the phone was going into the jeans.

00:27:32   And again, I haven't had this in hand.

00:27:34   Maybe I'm making a mountain out of nothing

00:27:36   but it certainly seemed like, as you said, Marco,

00:27:38   it was, I guess, sufficient, adequately strong

00:27:42   but not super strong.

00:27:44   And I feel like it would be neat if it was possible

00:27:48   for the other side of the magnet to be crazy strong.

00:27:50   That's probably also not how magnets work, but whatever.

00:27:52   I just think it would be neat to be able to do

00:27:54   like a car mount with only a magnet,

00:27:56   a PopSocket with only a magnet.

00:27:58   - Yeah, well, the problem is that magnets hold

00:28:01   pretty strongly in one direction

00:28:02   but pretty weakly in the other.

00:28:03   And so the force of the magnets clinging together,

00:28:06   like the force of the, like the sandwich closing force

00:28:09   between the wallet and the phone,

00:28:11   if you think about them as pieces of bread,

00:28:12   like the sandwich pushing together force is strong

00:28:16   but the like slidey force, when you try to slide them

00:28:19   like laterally from each other, is very weak.

00:28:21   - You're killing the physicists in the audience.

00:28:23   - Yes, sorry, I don't know the terms for this.

00:28:25   But basically like, you know, it's,

00:28:27   if you tried to pull the wallet straight off the back,

00:28:30   it would take much more force

00:28:32   than if you slide it off the back.

00:28:34   And so I think that's gonna impact like

00:28:37   what kinds of accessories make sense

00:28:40   and what kind of strength you actually get in practice.

00:28:43   - I think you can work on some of this

00:28:44   because like, so this document with the requirements,

00:28:48   people don't have to follow these requirements.

00:28:50   I'm sure people can ship whatever they want.

00:28:51   So if you wanna make a pop socket

00:28:53   with those super strong rare earth magnets inside it

00:28:57   and see if you can find a way to get that

00:28:58   to successfully attach to a MagSafe iPhone

00:29:01   without destroying the phone,

00:29:03   that will be harder to pull off

00:29:04   and could work with a pop socket

00:29:06   and will totally probably not be compliant

00:29:08   with this document at all.

00:29:09   But if it can be made, people will make it and try it.

00:29:12   And one of the pop socket brands said they were making

00:29:15   some kind of MagSafe pop socket.

00:29:16   It wasn't clear to me whether they were saying

00:29:19   they were gonna make a pop socket

00:29:20   that can attach with MagSafe

00:29:22   or they were going to make a MagSafe enabled case

00:29:25   that had a pop socket mechanically part of the case,

00:29:28   which is another thing that you can buy.

00:29:29   So we'll see.

00:29:30   There's magnets inside the phone.

00:29:34   What is outside the phone is up to whatever people

00:29:37   can manufacture that will still function.

00:29:40   - Yeah, I think I'm gonna recommend that if you wanna use

00:29:41   any kind of magnetic pop socket,

00:29:43   I'm gonna recommend you also get AppleCare.

00:29:45   (laughing)

00:29:46   It'll come with the pop socket.

00:29:48   Things with the wallet attachment,

00:29:51   a lot of people have done that in their reviews

00:29:53   of trying to stick it in their pocket

00:29:54   and showing how the wallet just slides off.

00:29:55   It doesn't look like it's particularly firmly attached.

00:29:58   I think maybe even Gruber mentioned this,

00:30:00   that you could actually use that little wallet

00:30:01   just as a wallet by itself without attaching it

00:30:03   to your phone and just have it do

00:30:04   attach to your phone sometime if it's in a loose pocket.

00:30:06   But it's a little bit like the infomercials on,

00:30:10   not infomercials, like the As Seen on TV product advertising

00:30:13   said, "Does this ever happen to you?"

00:30:15   And you're trying to scramble eggs

00:30:16   and you catch your house on fire, right?

00:30:17   - Yeah, they're doing it wrong.

00:30:18   - Maybe that actually happens to Casey.

00:30:20   Like, if you actually had that wallet attachment

00:30:24   and you wanted to put it in your pocket,

00:30:25   you just turn the wallet part to face your leg

00:30:28   instead of facing out and then slide it in your pocket

00:30:30   and it would probably be more successful, let's say.

00:30:32   Like, I can't imagine--

00:30:33   - No, no, think about the protrusion of the phone

00:30:37   that would result from having it wallet side in.

00:30:39   - I'm not saying that the wallet attachment

00:30:44   is perfectly fine in your pocket.

00:30:45   Clearly, it's like you said, Marco,

00:30:46   that the force in that direction

00:30:48   is enough to dislodge it no matter what.

00:30:50   Even if you turned it around to face your leg

00:30:52   and slid it in, it still could dislodge the wallet.

00:30:54   It's just that they would both be in your pocket at the end.

00:30:55   So it's not a good design.

00:30:57   This is not a good accessory.

00:30:58   But I feel like the people making the videos

00:31:01   put it in the worst possible light

00:31:03   to show how it pops off because it, you know.

00:31:05   All I can say is if you plan on putting your phone

00:31:09   in a pants pocket, don't bother getting the wallet thing

00:31:13   because you'll forget and put it the other way

00:31:15   or it'll slide off and you won't notice

00:31:17   and that's probably not great.

00:31:18   In a jacket pocket, I think it would fit fine.

00:31:21   - Or even just loose pants or a purse.

00:31:23   If you have cargo shorts, those are super loose.

00:31:26   - I don't know about a purse.

00:31:28   A purse is a hostile environment

00:31:29   with all that stuff sloshing around in there

00:31:30   and they could get dislodged from each other.

00:31:32   Personally, I don't actually understand the idea

00:31:34   of putting credit cards attached to your phone.

00:31:37   I guess it's like people have such a minimal wallet

00:31:39   that they don't carry anything except for one or two cards

00:31:42   and a little tiny bit of cash.

00:31:43   - You don't even understand what that means.

00:31:45   That is impossible for your brain to understand,

00:31:47   the idea of a minimal wallet.

00:31:50   - So this thing is, on the wallet again,

00:31:52   it holds three cards.

00:31:53   That's what it holds, three credit cards.

00:31:55   It doesn't hold four.

00:31:57   You can do two or one, right?

00:31:58   How minimal does your life have to be

00:32:02   that you only have three cards?

00:32:03   Okay, driver's license, two credit cards.

00:32:06   That's pretty minimal.

00:32:08   That is, it is a very demanding minimum.

00:32:10   I don't know how many people can pull that off routinely.

00:32:15   Maybe you don't need any credit cards

00:32:16   'cause you pay for everything in Apple Pay.

00:32:17   That's fine too.

00:32:18   Maybe you normally take your big wallet,

00:32:19   but sometimes you don't.

00:32:20   But I just feel like it's so minimal.

00:32:23   For something from Apple, they're usually trying to find,

00:32:25   to aim at the mass market,

00:32:27   I feel like that wallet accessory

00:32:28   is not aimed at the mass market.

00:32:29   It's aimed at minimal wallet people

00:32:31   or people who love to just move their driver's license

00:32:33   or their ID or whatever to and from.

00:32:36   Or maybe people don't take their IDs with them.

00:32:37   I don't know.

00:32:38   I don't know how regular people live with their wallets.

00:32:39   It just seems like it's so minimal and so fixed.

00:32:43   You can have two credit cards

00:32:44   and how many bills can you fit in there

00:32:47   if people still carry cash?

00:32:48   No coins, obviously.

00:32:50   How about a transit card, one credit card and your ID?

00:32:54   But no cash then 'cause there's no more room for cash?

00:32:58   - Health insurance card.

00:33:00   Does anybody, I don't know.

00:33:03   I am a fairly minimal wallet person,

00:33:06   but even I can't get down to just three cards

00:33:09   and nothing else.

00:33:10   - Yeah, same.

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00:35:24   (upbeat music)

00:35:28   - Jon, why don't you tell us

00:35:28   about Periscope camera lenses, please.

00:35:31   - This is from Timo Grun who says

00:35:33   that the phone cameras in Android phones

00:35:35   that are Periscope lenses,

00:35:37   which it's not like a submarine Periscope

00:35:39   where like Periscope comes out of submarine.

00:35:41   Think of that, that would be a lot cooler.

00:35:43   - Yeah, it would. - Yeah, think of that,

00:35:44   but the entire Periscope is inside the phone

00:35:46   and just the little part that pokes out

00:35:48   is parking out of a hole in the phone, right?

00:35:50   Well, anyway, he tells me

00:35:53   that there is no moving lens elements in those.

00:35:56   It's just a way to get more focal length, right?

00:35:59   So they are inside the phone

00:36:00   and there's this long tunnel where the lenses are away

00:36:02   but they don't actually move relative to each other.

00:36:04   So it's a way to get a big zoom, but it's still fixed zoom.

00:36:08   I don't know if there's some Android phone out there

00:36:10   that actually has moving lens elements,

00:36:12   but according to Timo, no such luck.

00:36:16   So that makes a little bit more sense.

00:36:18   And it still is like the only way

00:36:20   to get a reasonable focal distance

00:36:22   without actually have something sticking out of your phone,

00:36:24   but no optical zoom.

00:36:26   - So I'm not trying to be snarky or funny or anything.

00:36:31   I feel like I've heard people that we know and trust,

00:36:35   different people, say the iPhones

00:36:37   have absolutely become cheaper this year.

00:36:39   And then I've heard other people say

00:36:40   the iPhones have absolutely become more expensive this year.

00:36:43   Can one of you shed light on this?

00:36:45   Like what is the real deal here?

00:36:47   - It depends on what you care about.

00:36:49   Some of the price comparisons are confused

00:36:52   by the $30 discount that you get

00:36:54   for these special deals with everybody,

00:36:55   which by the way has been extended to T-Mobile as well.

00:36:58   So now in the US, at least, it's fairly uniform

00:37:00   that they all do this $30 offer,

00:37:01   some special offer, whatever thing,

00:37:03   but also because of the mini.

00:37:05   And if you're trying to compare

00:37:08   what the cheapest new iPhone was,

00:37:10   that's not a continuing model from last year,

00:37:13   but then you say, but wait a second, it's not the same

00:37:16   because last year I could get an 11, a non-pro 11,

00:37:19   but it's so much bigger than the mini.

00:37:20   So how can you tell me the mini is the replacement

00:37:23   for the 11, but it's so much smaller.

00:37:25   So isn't that a worse phone?

00:37:27   Unless you like the mini better

00:37:28   and then it's a better phone.

00:37:29   But then what about the storage size comparisons?

00:37:31   It's a little bit confusing.

00:37:32   I think net-net, I would say the new iPhones this year

00:37:37   are slightly more expensive towards the bottom of the range

00:37:40   because of the OLED screens.

00:37:42   But it's confused by the fact that they're different sizes

00:37:44   and the storage changes and the partner deals

00:37:47   and so on and so forth.

00:37:49   When it was LCD on the lower end,

00:37:50   you probably got more or less more phone for your money.

00:37:55   But in the grand scheme of things,

00:37:57   I would just call it a wash

00:37:58   because the differences we're talking about here

00:38:00   are 10, 20, 30 bucks and maybe more

00:38:02   if you start subtracting out,

00:38:04   which we'll get to in a second,

00:38:05   the power adapter that you might have to buy

00:38:07   and stuff like that.

00:38:08   So I can understand someone making the argument

00:38:11   and being successful in the numbers

00:38:13   that they are slightly more expensive this year,

00:38:14   especially on the low end.

00:38:15   But it's not the type of difference

00:38:17   that I think is either lasting or particularly significant

00:38:21   because I think the OLED screen prices next year

00:38:23   will go down and things will basically even out.

00:38:27   And related to that, we talked about this

00:38:29   with the new iPhones and how they don't include headphones

00:38:32   or a power adapter.

00:38:33   But it's like, but we don't know

00:38:35   how much the new iPhones cost.

00:38:37   Again, with the OLED screen,

00:38:38   maybe the new iPhones just cost more.

00:38:40   So the fact that they didn't really adjust the prices

00:38:42   as compared, it's not clear to us that we're saving any money

00:38:45   by not having those accessories in the box.

00:38:46   In fact, the prices look more or less the same

00:38:48   as they were last year in the ballpark.

00:38:50   So it feels like we're getting cheated out of that money.

00:38:54   And what I said in the last show is like,

00:38:55   if for example, they take an existing phone

00:38:58   that comes with headphones and a power adapter

00:39:01   and removes those from that existing product

00:39:03   and keeps the price the same,

00:39:05   then you know Apple's just taking that as extra profit.

00:39:08   Well, that's exactly what they did.

00:39:09   The XR11 and SE, exactly the same phones

00:39:12   as they were last year.

00:39:13   If you buy them now, you get them without headphones

00:39:16   and a power adapter.

00:39:17   And did Apple adjust the prices?

00:39:18   No, they did not.

00:39:19   (laughing)

00:39:21   - At least now they're being consistent.

00:39:22   - Yeah.

00:39:23   Yeah, so I mean, it's just a little bit

00:39:25   of extra profit margin on some old phones

00:39:28   and who knows, but if the margins are exactly the same

00:39:31   on the new phones, because the OLED prices have gone down

00:39:34   since the iPhone X, but OLEDs are still more expensive

00:39:37   than LCDs, so I feel like the reason the prices

00:39:40   are up a little bit on the low end phones

00:39:41   is mostly due to that OLED screen,

00:39:43   which if the parts reports of past phones

00:39:46   are to be believed were the most expensive part

00:39:49   in the iPhone line with the introduction of the X.

00:39:53   More expensive than the system on a chip,

00:39:55   more expensive than the battery,

00:39:56   the biggest single expense was more expensive than the case,

00:39:58   the biggest single expense is the screen.

00:40:00   - Another thing that's probably expensive

00:40:02   within these phones is batteries.

00:40:04   John, where could I find the official battery specs

00:40:06   for every Apple product ever?

00:40:07   - Apparently it's in some weird, you know,

00:40:10   some legal compliance document where they have to list

00:40:13   all this stuff, so we'll put links in the show notes.

00:40:15   It's a little bit of a trick.

00:40:16   You have to start off at like apple.com/legal/moreresources/gtc.html

00:40:21   and from there it links to another page

00:40:23   and from there it links to a PDF

00:40:24   and there you can find specs on all the batteries

00:40:27   for all the products, not just the new phones.

00:40:29   The problem is, problem my perspective,

00:40:32   'cause I don't know what this means,

00:40:33   is it gives the battery ratings in watt hours

00:40:36   and watt hours is the same as milliamp hours

00:40:39   divided by volts, but I don't know what voltage

00:40:42   to divide by to convert watt hours into milliamp hours

00:40:45   because we're always used to comparing

00:40:46   the iPhone battery sizes by milliamp hours, right?

00:40:50   - Yeah, 'cause aren't they usually around like 3.7 volts

00:40:53   for lithium, but I don't know.

00:40:54   There could be, like there's like slight variations

00:40:56   some years, I think, that makes it hard to calculate.

00:40:58   - Yeah, anyway, so Roland who sent this in

00:41:03   did some calculations and I guess we can't really

00:41:07   put these in the show notes, but you can look them up

00:41:08   in the document if you want.

00:41:09   So the iPhone 12 mini has an 8.57 watt hour battery,

00:41:14   but there's nothing to compare that to,

00:41:15   so we don't know if it's bigger or smaller.

00:41:17   The iPhone 12 has a 10.78 watt hour battery,

00:41:20   which is down 9.5% from the 11.

00:41:25   So smaller battery in the 12.

00:41:27   12 Pro is also down, or has the same size battery

00:41:30   and that's down 7.6% versus the 11 non-Pro from last year,

00:41:35   'cause that was, I suppose, a smaller battery?

00:41:39   Oh yeah, it's a smaller battery in the Pro,

00:41:42   'cause the 11 was the beefier phone last year.

00:41:45   And the iPhone 12 Pro Max has a 14.13 watt hour battery

00:41:50   which is down 6.1% versus the old Max.

00:41:53   So all the batteries on the phones

00:41:54   that have roughly comparable phones last year got smaller.

00:41:59   It makes kinda sense, like we know the phones,

00:42:01   the new Pro phones are like 0.7 millimeters thinner,

00:42:04   so where is that gonna come from?

00:42:05   You gotta have a smaller battery in there,

00:42:06   that makes sense.

00:42:07   Also the old iPhone 11, there is no phone that size anymore,

00:42:13   now it's kind of shrunken down.

00:42:14   The 12 Pro has the similar size screen,

00:42:17   but in a smaller case, right?

00:42:18   So these batteries are all smaller.

00:42:20   The battery ratings, according to Apple's battery lifetime,

00:42:24   look like they're in the same ballpark.

00:42:26   I suppose the five nanometer system on a chip

00:42:29   is where the savings come from,

00:42:30   how can we get away with having anywhere

00:42:32   from a six to almost 10% smaller battery

00:42:35   and still have similar battery life?

00:42:36   Eh, five nanometer, maybe that'll do it.

00:42:38   So once we get these phones,

00:42:39   we'll see what the battery life is like.

00:42:40   But in case you're wondering, it seems like if watt hours

00:42:44   are any kind of reasonable comparison of battery capacity,

00:42:48   for example, if the voltage is the same across generations,

00:42:51   then these are slightly smaller batteries in these phones.

00:42:54   - So we have a old, old bet to settle.

00:42:57   From two years ago, on the 13th of September, 2018,

00:43:01   John said, "In the next five years,

00:43:03   "Apple will sell a new phone that is smaller than the 10."

00:43:06   And Marco said something on the lines of,

00:43:08   "I'll take that bet."

00:43:09   And then there was a back and forth,

00:43:10   and it was concluded that if that happens,

00:43:13   Marco will own John a dollar.

00:43:15   So Marco, if you wouldn't mind Apple Pay Cashing,

00:43:17   John, one dollar as we're sitting here,

00:43:19   you can do it on the show, I'll allow it, John,

00:43:23   then if you could please settle that bet,

00:43:25   I would appreciate it.

00:43:26   - I will attempt to do that right now.

00:43:27   - I had forgotten all about this bet.

00:43:29   - So did I.

00:43:30   - It was, I mean, it was said within the next five years,

00:43:32   and we're like two years and change into that,

00:43:34   so I got it right in the middle of the range there.

00:43:36   Yeah, Marco was adamant that they wouldn't make

00:43:37   a new, smaller phone, not like some existing phone

00:43:40   that they were still selling,

00:43:41   but a new, smaller phone than the 10,

00:43:42   and I was pretty sure they would, and they did.

00:43:45   - How about them Apples?

00:43:46   - Marco wanted to bet five dollars,

00:43:48   but I talked him down to one dollar.

00:43:49   How's that for shrewd negotiation?

00:43:51   (laughing)

00:43:53   - This was from Tim Chatton, by the way.

00:43:55   (phone chimes)

00:43:56   Oh, I heard that, I know that noise.

00:43:58   Well done.

00:44:00   See how easy that is?

00:44:01   You can do it while you record,

00:44:03   and you didn't even put an ampersand in, did you?

00:44:04   - I heard the noise over on Marco's side,

00:44:06   but oh, that finally came through over here.

00:44:08   I was like, what is this lag?

00:44:09   - I guess you're not a dollar to somebody.

00:44:11   (laughing)

00:44:12   - Oh, I think I have auto receive now, yeah.

00:44:15   - Receive just now, I did it.

00:44:17   I got a dollar.

00:44:18   - Yay.

00:44:18   - I got a dollar.

00:44:19   - I hate being in debt, I had to pay immediately.

00:44:21   - Hey, hey, hey, hey.

00:44:22   - Oh, I have some very quick follow up,

00:44:25   before I forget, on my broken time machine drive

00:44:30   with the 7.68 terabyte Micron SSD.

00:44:34   - Right, what technology did you buy?

00:44:36   (laughing)

00:44:38   - They have a new one with Ryzen CPUs in them.

00:44:40   - With Verizon 5G CPUs in them?

00:44:42   - That's what I said, yeah.

00:44:43   (laughing)

00:44:44   So anyway, I got a new enclosure.

00:44:48   My first theory was, well, I have these two giant SSDs

00:44:52   in this enclosure, it was kind of seeming flaky,

00:44:55   maybe the enclosure is bad.

00:44:56   So before I go through the hassle of trying to get

00:45:00   some kind of warranty service from Micron,

00:45:02   let me replace the enclosure, 'cause they're really cheap.

00:45:05   And I ordered some enclosures, came in,

00:45:09   and I learned very quickly that almost all

00:45:14   2.5 inch disk enclosures don't support the capacity

00:45:18   of seven terabytes, or 7.6 terabytes.

00:45:21   - Oh, interesting.

00:45:22   - They have capacity limits still.

00:45:23   In this day and age, you can get a brand new USB-C,

00:45:26   USB three point whatever enclosure for a SATA drive today,

00:45:31   that if it's made for 2.5 inch drives,

00:45:34   which all these little bus powered ones are,

00:45:36   most of them have a capacity limit of four gigs,

00:45:39   or four terabytes.

00:45:40   I don't know why this hasn't, well, I guess I do know

00:45:44   why, 'cause hard drives, like 2.5 inch hard drives,

00:45:48   I don't think are available anything bigger than four gigs,

00:45:50   or four terabytes.

00:45:51   - I think there's one that maxes out at five.

00:45:53   People used to sell fives, but it was actually

00:45:55   two 2.5 inch drives, like combining to five,

00:45:59   but I think there might be a single five terabyte mechanism.

00:46:02   But anyway, it seems kind of borderline to have stuff,

00:46:05   to have chipsets limited to four, when that is

00:46:07   even anywhere close to the actual maximum drive size.

00:46:10   - Right, and I would assume that the 2.5 inch

00:46:14   interface chips would probably be the same chips

00:46:17   as a 3.5 inch enclosure, is that 3.5 inch drives

00:46:20   are routinely above eight terabytes now.

00:46:22   - I don't know, because the 3.5 ones aren't gonna be

00:46:24   bus powered, right?

00:46:25   So the 2.5 ones, the entire chipset has to be bus powered,

00:46:28   and that's a whole other kettle of fish.

00:46:30   - Yeah, well anyway, so anyone out there who,

00:46:33   for whatever reason, wants to buy an almost eight terabyte

00:46:36   SSD, and you wanna put it in a USB enclosure,

00:46:39   know that most of them don't support the capacity.

00:46:43   The one I bought the first time happened to support it.

00:46:46   I did eventually get another one that did.

00:46:49   I will put a link to the good one that supports it

00:46:51   in the show notes, it's by Cable Matters,

00:46:53   and otherwise it seems fine.

00:46:55   Anyway, I replaced the enclosure with,

00:46:57   instead of the one double enclosure,

00:46:58   I now have two single enclosures,

00:47:00   and they seem to work perfectly.

00:47:02   I've been running it for almost a week now,

00:47:05   and I've had no issues, so it does seem like

00:47:08   it was simply a defective enclosure,

00:47:10   and I'm happily back to my non-synology lifestyle so far.

00:47:15   - Oh, fine.

00:47:16   - I should've made you a one dollar bet about that too.

00:47:18   - Yeah. (laughs)

00:47:20   - Well, I just assume that I'm right from now on.

00:47:21   It'll save us a lot of time.

00:47:23   - It would certainly save us a lot of feedback email.

00:47:25   Moving on, Alex Chan had a very interesting blog post

00:47:29   that went up over the last few days,

00:47:31   and the question was asked on this show

00:47:34   and other places as well, how much do I, whoever,

00:47:38   really use the ultra-wide and telephoto lenses on my 11 Pro?

00:47:43   And Jason Snell had answered this question

00:47:47   by way of, what is it, Smart Folders in Photos?

00:47:51   - Smart Albums. - Whatever it's called.

00:47:52   Smart Albums, thank you, in Photos,

00:47:53   and we'll put a link to that in the show notes.

00:47:55   But Alex, coming right after my own heart,

00:47:59   decided to use ExifTool, and if you're not familiar,

00:48:02   ExifTool is a command line tool that lets you

00:48:04   read or write Exif data, E-X-I-F,

00:48:07   which contains a whole bunch of metadata

00:48:08   about pictures, and Alex wrote a one-liner

00:48:12   that will crawl a particular folder

00:48:16   and spit out the results of how many,

00:48:19   how many of your pictures have been taken

00:48:20   with each of the different lenses.

00:48:22   Now this gets very complicated very quickly

00:48:25   because apparently in certain scenarios,

00:48:27   you'll see kind of unusual lens names,

00:48:30   like dual camera, for example,

00:48:32   which people thought might be portrait mode photos,

00:48:35   except maybe it's not, and I could go on for hours,

00:48:37   but suffice to say, I looked at my personal results

00:48:41   for 2019 and 2020, and I'll put it in the show notes,

00:48:44   but basically the summary for me anyway

00:48:48   was I used the ultra-wide for 7% of my photos,

00:48:52   the wide for standard lens for 83% of my photos,

00:48:56   and the telephoto lens for a full 10%

00:48:58   of the photos I've taken with my 11 Pro,

00:49:00   which is probably about on par with what I guessed,

00:49:04   but it is nice to be able to see those numbers

00:49:06   plain as day right in front of you.

00:49:07   Oh, actually I should specify, this is both Aaron and me.

00:49:10   I said me, but that's not true.

00:49:12   This was our joint, like merged photo library,

00:49:16   so that was actually the both of us,

00:49:17   but nevertheless, the LISP family, 7% ultra-wide,

00:49:21   83% wide, 10% telephoto, and that's just how we stacked up,

00:49:24   and I presume neither of you did your homework,

00:49:26   and that's okay, but--

00:49:28   - I totally did my homework.

00:49:29   (Brennan gasps)

00:49:31   - Oh my God, that is a bet I would've lost.

00:49:34   That is a bet I very much would've lost.

00:49:36   Holy smokes, Marco, I am so proud of you.

00:49:38   So where did you end up?

00:49:39   - I mean, in typical fashion,

00:49:40   I did it like 15 minutes before the show, but still.

00:49:43   - Of course.

00:49:44   - That's when I looked at notes and saw this,

00:49:45   I'm like, uh-oh, I better run these numbers.

00:49:48   So I actually came out roughly where I expected to

00:49:53   with a couple of exceptions.

00:49:54   So out of the 2,400 or so photos I shot

00:49:59   since having the iPhone 11 Pro,

00:50:03   I have about 9% ultra-wide, 75% 1X,

00:50:08   and about 16% telephoto.

00:50:13   - Oh wow, that's fairly significant.

00:50:16   - That is more frequent use of the telephoto lens

00:50:19   than I would have guessed,

00:50:21   but it is also still just 16%.

00:50:25   If 16% of the time, the photos are a little bit worse

00:50:28   because I had to use digital zoom to get them

00:50:30   instead of using the actual optical lens,

00:50:33   that's not great,

00:50:34   but if it comes with other substantial benefits

00:50:38   and I don't have the option to have both

00:50:40   those substantial benefits and the cool telephoto lens,

00:50:42   then I think I might accept those benefits.

00:50:45   And so the ultra-wide, if I need the ultra-wide,

00:50:50   that can't be simulated with the 1X.

00:50:54   If you need something wider than what you have,

00:50:57   you can't interpolate it.

00:50:58   You have to just capture it.

00:51:00   So if I'm going to have only two lenses,

00:51:03   I think I would pick the 0.5 and the 1X

00:51:07   because I actually have ended up using the 0.5X lens

00:51:10   more than I would have guessed.

00:51:11   When they announced it last year,

00:51:13   this was the first year that I had them,

00:51:15   I thought I'm never gonna use that.

00:51:18   I figured I would take one or two shots

00:51:21   for the novelty value when it was brand new

00:51:22   and I would never use it again.

00:51:24   - That's what I thought too.

00:51:25   - But in fact, I have actually used it.

00:51:27   And I looked through the pictures,

00:51:29   what are my ultra-wide pictures?

00:51:32   And it isn't just all up front

00:51:34   in the first few weeks of having the phone.

00:51:35   It's spread pretty evenly throughout the year

00:51:37   'cause I do actually end up using it

00:51:39   more regularly than I would have guessed.

00:51:41   And then I looked through the 2X pictures

00:51:44   from the 2X lens that I'm about to lose

00:51:46   by going to the non-pro phone.

00:51:49   I was surprised, seeing a lot of them,

00:51:51   like oh yeah, I guess that is nice.

00:51:53   But again, when I open these pictures up

00:51:56   and I view them at full size,

00:51:58   I see oh, they actually are noticeably crappier

00:52:01   in quality compared to the 1X cameras.

00:52:03   They are significantly noisier.

00:52:05   A lot of times the color isn't as good,

00:52:07   the contrast isn't as good,

00:52:09   because it isn't as good of a camera.

00:52:11   And so I'm not talking about going from

00:52:14   having a 2X ability to having no 2X ability.

00:52:18   I'm going from having one compromised 2X ability

00:52:21   to having a differently compromised 2X ability.

00:52:23   (laughing)

00:52:24   And from that point of view,

00:52:26   I'm losing less than I would have thought.

00:52:30   Now one significant thing,

00:52:32   this is I guess an important follow up,

00:52:33   one massive thing that people wrote in to point out

00:52:37   that I just didn't even think about is portrait mode.

00:52:41   'Cause I never use it, 'cause I really still hate it.

00:52:44   If you are a frequent user of portrait mode,

00:52:48   yeah, you should probably keep the telephoto lens,

00:52:50   'cause it plays a pretty important role there.

00:52:52   So sorry for leaving that out.

00:52:55   - Don't the new phones do portrait mode

00:52:56   without the telephoto lens?

00:52:58   - They do, but it's worse.

00:53:00   - All right, I never use either, I don't know.

00:53:02   - I thought that, and I might be completely wrong about this,

00:53:06   but I thought that LIDAR was also assisting,

00:53:09   on the pros anyway, was assisting with portrait mode.

00:53:12   - Yeah.

00:53:13   - And if that's true, something I'm curious to see,

00:53:16   and I feel like I saw this on

00:53:17   Panzareno's review on TechCrunch,

00:53:19   but one of the things,

00:53:21   I actually mostly like portrait mode,

00:53:23   like for the purpose that it serves,

00:53:25   I think it's pretty good.

00:53:27   But some of the faults of portrait mode,

00:53:30   or the common faults of portrait mode,

00:53:32   are glasses and like at the border

00:53:36   between a person's hair and the background,

00:53:38   things can get blurred either too much

00:53:40   or too little or just weirdly.

00:53:42   But the number one thing that drives me

00:53:44   just patty about portrait mode is when,

00:53:47   say you're standing and you have your hands on your hips,

00:53:51   like Peter Pan style, you know what I mean?

00:53:52   And so you have this empty space, like a triangle--

00:53:55   - Oh yeah, the little window.

00:53:56   - Yeah, you have that triangle of empty space

00:53:59   between your torso and your arms, right?

00:54:01   Well, in portrait mode, almost always,

00:54:03   that triangle of space will be perfectly in focus

00:54:08   because the algorithm hasn't realized

00:54:10   it needs to blur that area.

00:54:13   And then everything else can look pretty good,

00:54:14   but as soon as you look at the insides

00:54:17   of your Peter Pan arms, then you realize,

00:54:18   oh god, oh, again, ah.

00:54:22   And this happens to me all the time

00:54:24   when I try to use portrait mode.

00:54:26   And I wonder, and I haven't seen this written anywhere,

00:54:28   but I really wonder if the LIDAR sensor,

00:54:31   almost a camera, if the LIDAR sensor

00:54:33   is used for portrait mode even in the daytime,

00:54:37   will that help fix this problem?

00:54:40   Because for me, I'm not saying for Marco,

00:54:42   but for me, if that triangle was treated appropriately

00:54:47   by portrait mode or equivalent scenarios

00:54:50   that are similar to it,

00:54:51   I think I would use portrait mode a lot

00:54:53   because I can get over the weird merging

00:54:57   between a hairline and the background.

00:54:59   Like, that's not that big a deal to me.

00:55:00   But golly, the triangles that peek through

00:55:03   drive me bananas.

00:55:04   And so I am hopeful that maybe the 12 Pro

00:55:09   will make that a lot better.

00:55:11   But again, I could be speaking way out of turn

00:55:13   and maybe that's not even close to reality.

00:55:15   - LIDAR dots are pretty far apart, right?

00:55:17   So if you're expecting it to make

00:55:19   like a pixel perfect depth map of your arm,

00:55:22   no, it's not gonna do that.

00:55:23   Like, you've seen all the things with an IR camera,

00:55:26   how many LIDAR dots there are and how far.

00:55:28   It will certainly know that there are gaps there,

00:55:30   but then it will be up to coordination

00:55:32   with the sort of ML thing to say,

00:55:34   okay, LIDAR has detected that there's a big hole here,

00:55:38   but we don't know where the edges of the hole are.

00:55:39   We could roughly say they're kind of maybe triangular shaped,

00:55:42   but in terms of finding the actual edges,

00:55:44   then it would have to stick the ML on it and say,

00:55:46   find the edge of the arm and the body.

00:55:49   - In theory, you could definitely improve things,

00:55:50   but I just don't like this whole feature,

00:55:53   so I don't really care how well it does,

00:55:55   but you try that out.

00:55:56   You try some Peter Pan arms when you get your phone

00:55:58   and we'll see how it does.

00:55:59   - I absolutely will.

00:56:00   I definitely will.

00:56:01   - Why is it Peter Pan arms?

00:56:02   Is Peter Pan known for "Hands on Hips"?

00:56:05   I guess I suppose.

00:56:06   - I mean, like I think of like "Hook", the movie "Hook",

00:56:08   which I liked and I know nobody else did and that's fine.

00:56:11   - The one with Dustin Hoffman?

00:56:12   - Yes, and Robin Williams.

00:56:14   I love that movie.

00:56:15   - Okay, sure.

00:56:16   Yep, not the animated Peter Pan, but that one.

00:56:18   - All right.

00:56:19   - Yeah, well, consider I was like 10 when "Hook" came out.

00:56:22   And so I was like right in the rough age group

00:56:26   for when that would be great.

00:56:27   - "Hook" was like contemporary for us.

00:56:28   Like it was made for us.

00:56:30   - Yes, exactly right.

00:56:32   So anyways, so yeah, I just keep thinking of like

00:56:35   Robin Williams like floating through the silhouette

00:56:38   he had cut in Captain Hook's sail, you know,

00:56:40   with his arms, with his hands, you know,

00:56:43   fisted with on his hips and he's just got that triangle.

00:56:45   - Spoiler.

00:56:46   - Yeah, spoiler, spoiler.

00:56:48   Actually, that is actually a pretty big spoiler

00:56:50   for a 20 year old movie, but here we are.

00:56:52   So anyways, so the point is, I'm going to try that

00:56:55   once my phones come in, which I'm really looking forward to.

00:56:59   John, I hope you didn't do your homework,

00:57:01   but did you do your homework?

00:57:02   - No, I thought this was for Marco

00:57:04   because he's the one getting the camera without the lens,

00:57:06   but I don't have to check 'cause I'm getting the camera

00:57:08   with all the lenses, so I don't have to worry about that.

00:57:10   (upbeat music)

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00:58:45   - What did you buy?

00:58:50   And I'd also like to know, did you buy a case

00:58:53   and did you buy any sort of AppleCare Plus?

00:58:55   And we will start with you, Jon.

00:58:57   - I got a Graphite 12 Pro 256.

00:59:01   I got AppleCare because I always do,

00:59:03   which somehow prevents me

00:59:05   from ever breaking my phone apparently.

00:59:07   - Did you do the lump sum AppleCare

00:59:08   or did you do the month-to-month?

00:59:09   Because I don't remember this being an option

00:59:12   in the past, it may have been.

00:59:13   - It wasn't an option in the past.

00:59:15   - It's been an option for a while.

00:59:16   I get the lump sum because I get a new phone every two years

00:59:18   so it's gonna end after two years,

00:59:20   it's not gonna work, right?

00:59:20   So it's not like I need to have it to continue to go on.

00:59:24   I did not get a case because I want the leather one

00:59:27   provided the leather one has a cutout on the bottom

00:59:30   like the clear one.

00:59:31   If it turns out the leather one doesn't have a cutout

00:59:33   on the bottom like the clear case,

00:59:34   I don't know what the heck I'm gonna do.

00:59:36   I mean, I might start looking at third-party cases,

00:59:39   I might try the clear one,

00:59:40   although reportedly the buttons on the clear one are terrible

00:59:42   and honestly I don't like the look of it,

00:59:43   but I am very much anti-lip on the bottom.

00:59:47   So I'm not gonna have to try to use this with AppleCare

00:59:50   and without a case until the leather ones are available

00:59:54   so I can make this determination.

00:59:56   - Fair enough.

00:59:57   Did you get any chargers, MagSafe chargers

00:59:59   or anything like that?

01:00:00   - Oh yeah, I got the MagSafe puck,

01:00:02   that's actually already arrived.

01:00:03   So that's upstairs now, I got the MagSafe puck.

01:00:05   And the other thing that I was fretting about on Twitter

01:00:08   before the day of ordering was the options they give you

01:00:12   in the ordering process are more confusing to me

01:00:16   than I remember them being in the past.

01:00:17   In the past, I would order my new phone on my existing phone

01:00:21   and during the order process it would say,

01:00:23   "Hey, I noticed you're ordering on an iPhone,"

01:00:25   'cause I'd be using like the Apple Store app.

01:00:27   "Do you want to buy a new phone to replace the phone

01:00:29   "that you're buying it on now?"

01:00:30   I'd say, "Yes, that's in fact exactly what I wanna do."

01:00:33   And then I would just go through.

01:00:34   Now that option wasn't presented to me.

01:00:36   Instead, I got two options,

01:00:37   neither of which made any sense to me

01:00:39   because I don't understand the weird world of phones.

01:00:42   So I asked on Twitter,

01:00:43   "Hey, which of these two options should I choose?"

01:00:45   And pretty much half the people said the first option,

01:00:48   and the other half of the people said the second option.

01:00:49   Everyone was very sure that they were correct.

01:00:51   - Helpful.

01:00:52   - That is absolutely, I saw a lot of this go by

01:00:54   because I chimed in with the actually correct answer.

01:00:57   But yes, everyone was utterly convinced

01:01:00   that they were correct either way.

01:01:02   - Yeah, and the thing is they had the same reasons.

01:01:04   They're like, "You should pick the first choice,

01:01:05   "because if you pick the first choice,

01:01:06   "you don't have to pay Verizon an activation fee."

01:01:09   And people would say, "You should pick the second choice,

01:01:11   "because if you pick the second choice,

01:01:12   "you don't have to pay Verizon an activation fee."

01:01:14   And some people said, "No matter what choice you pick,

01:01:16   "you'll have to pay an activation fee."

01:01:18   And it was just all over the map.

01:01:20   Like every possible permutation,

01:01:21   so I was like, "Okay, well apparently nobody knows."

01:01:23   Because people had stories about what they did.

01:01:26   I did this with this carrier and this time and this phone,

01:01:29   and this is what happened to me.

01:01:30   But always like two or three variables would be different.

01:01:32   Well, that wasn't this year, it was last year.

01:01:34   Well, you're on T-Mobile and I'm on Verizon.

01:01:35   Well, you live in a different country.

01:01:37   And so I could just, you know, it doesn't,

01:01:38   so there was, I thought it would be,

01:01:40   I thought it was clear cut and I just didn't know,

01:01:42   but apparently it's very confusing.

01:01:43   So anyway, the upshot is that I'm pretty sure

01:01:47   I could have picked either option, it would have been fine.

01:01:49   I think no matter what I did,

01:01:50   I would end up with an unlocked phone.

01:01:52   I think I could have bought a phone without a SIM

01:01:54   and taken my SIM out of my existing 10S and put it in there.

01:01:57   But although I wasn't sure which option

01:01:58   would let me do that, and I think I can order one

01:02:01   with a new SIM and just have it transfer service to that.

01:02:05   The final analysis, in the mad rush to try to get the phone

01:02:09   on the morning of, I don't even remember which one I picked.

01:02:12   I'm pretty sure I picked the top one,

01:02:14   which I think means they're going to send me a phone

01:02:17   with a brand new SIM in it, and when I turn it on,

01:02:20   I'll activate it, but it'll be a surprise.

01:02:23   - Wonderful.

01:02:24   (laughing)

01:02:26   Marco, you have not ordered anything, is that correct?

01:02:28   Or well, you might have for Tiff, what did she do?

01:02:31   - Well, I admit I was tempted.

01:02:34   And when the time came, I was awake,

01:02:37   I was already up working, and I had just gotten back

01:02:40   from school drop off, and I thought, you know what,

01:02:42   let me check the app, and I opened up the app,

01:02:44   and there it is, and I could order,

01:02:46   I still had day one delivery for whatever combo I would get

01:02:49   for the regular Pro, and I was very tempted.

01:02:54   But I let it go by, I didn't, because as much as I think

01:03:02   I'm gonna miss that telephoto lens,

01:03:05   when I look at the iPhone 12 Pro,

01:03:08   compared to the iPhone 11 Pro, it doesn't excite me.

01:03:10   It's not, I don't think 5G is gonna be a meaningful deal

01:03:15   for me during this year, I don't even think it covers

01:03:18   where I am right now, I'm pretty sure there's no AT&T

01:03:21   coverage where I am for 5G, and I'm not gonna switch

01:03:24   to Verizon for lots of other good reasons,

01:03:27   basically it doesn't cover a lot of places I need to be.

01:03:30   So, like my house. (laughs)

01:03:33   - Have you looked at the 5G map, because a lot of--

01:03:38   - Oh no no, I'm not talking about Verizon's 5G versus LTE,

01:03:41   I'm saying Verizon period does not cover my house.

01:03:45   - Sure, no I'm sorry, I'm back on AT&T,

01:03:46   because there is a whole lot of 5G everywhere

01:03:49   that I think you would possibly be on a regular basis.

01:03:52   Seriously. - Oh, I'll check,

01:03:53   maybe, I could have read the map wrong, anyway,

01:03:55   I'm not super excited about 5G yet.

01:03:58   - I mean, you're getting 5G no matter what phone

01:04:00   you get, so why are we talking about this?

01:04:01   - That's a good point.

01:04:02   - As an upgrade to the 11, if I look at my 11 Pro today,

01:04:06   yes I know for everybody out there, I know it's ridiculous

01:04:08   to upgrade every year, but you know, this is what we do.

01:04:11   So, compared to the 11 Pro, I don't see a major reason

01:04:15   to upgrade if what I'm going to be getting

01:04:18   is mostly the same as what I have.

01:04:20   And when you look at 11 Pro to 12 Pro,

01:04:23   if you don't care super strongly about 5G,

01:04:27   well what else is there, the One X camera

01:04:30   got a little bit better, the A14 is a little bit faster,

01:04:33   and you got straight sides.

01:04:34   - It's a lot faster, and you get HDR video,

01:04:36   but you also get the A14 with the Mini,

01:04:39   and you also get HDR video with the Mini,

01:04:41   just not as good.

01:04:41   - Right, and you also get the better

01:04:43   One X camera with the Mini.

01:04:45   In order to have a really big upgrade

01:04:48   from the 11 Pro to the 12 Pro, I think you have to go max.

01:04:53   Like, I think that's, if you want it to feel

01:04:56   like a big year on year thing, I mean,

01:04:58   the sensible thing to do is don't upgrade

01:05:00   if you have an 11 anything, because it's not better enough.

01:05:03   (laughing)

01:05:04   But, if you're gonna be an idiot and upgrade every year,

01:05:07   and pick a new phone 'cause you're fortunate enough

01:05:09   to be able to do that, I don't get excited

01:05:13   by going from the 11 Pro to the 12 Pro.

01:05:16   I think if you're a max person, like what Tiff is,

01:05:19   Tiff's a max person, she's getting a massive camera upgrade

01:05:22   by going to the 12 Pro max.

01:05:25   So, that's gonna be great, and that makes total sense,

01:05:28   and that's a good reason to be excited.

01:05:30   As this shopping day blew by, I realized I don't want

01:05:36   the 12 Pro, I don't think.

01:05:38   I mean, somebody's gonna play this back to me in a month

01:05:42   when I've gotten the Mini, hated it, returned it,

01:05:45   and gotten the Pro instead, but as we stand right now,

01:05:48   I'm not super excited, but I also, I saw all the reviews

01:05:50   that came out over the last couple days,

01:05:52   and I really don't like the massive fingerprint magnetness

01:05:56   of the steel polished edges on the Pro.

01:06:00   I really don't like that they kept the very slippery

01:06:03   matte finish glass back on the Pro.

01:06:06   So, what they've made, and I'm happy to see

01:06:09   that all the reviews basically say that if you've been using

01:06:12   an 11 Pro or a 10S or a 10, it is basically that same size,

01:06:16   even though it is officially very slightly larger,

01:06:19   it feels the same.

01:06:20   That's good, I'm happy to hear that,

01:06:23   but I'm not that happy with this size.

01:06:26   It's fine, I deal with it, but it's a little bit bigger

01:06:30   and a little bit heavier than I want.

01:06:31   And so, that's why, when I look at this lineup,

01:06:34   the Mini excites me, because this is not a massive year

01:06:38   for huge, gotta have it hardware upgrades,

01:06:42   unless you're a max person, then you get that awesome camera

01:06:45   but otherwise, it's not a massive year for that.

01:06:47   Again, 5G notwithstanding, 'cause I just don't care

01:06:50   about the maximum 5G yet.

01:06:51   And so, if it's not gonna be a massive year for that,

01:06:54   I feel like I have to make a bigger change

01:06:56   if I want this to be worth doing at all.

01:06:59   And I have thought about just skipping this year

01:07:01   for the first time ever, 'cause, you know, whatever,

01:07:03   but there is one massive change that I really want,

01:07:08   and it's the form factor, I really want that smaller phone.

01:07:11   And I think even though I'll be giving up the 2X camera,

01:07:15   and I won't be getting the full Dolby Vision 60 frames

01:07:18   a second, I won't be getting the new ProRAW format,

01:07:21   I don't think I would use either of those things.

01:07:24   And I think, as I mentioned earlier,

01:07:25   I think the 2X camera is complicated to the point

01:07:28   where I don't think I'll be missing it as much

01:07:30   as I might think, but again, we will see.

01:07:34   But I'm super excited about holding that little phone.

01:07:39   I have a feeling it's gonna feel awesome.

01:07:40   Like, I have a feeling going back to that size

01:07:43   and having such a tiny, light phone that's easy

01:07:46   to maneuver in your hand and everything,

01:07:48   and going without a case, 'cause I'll get the low-end glass,

01:07:52   which will be more grippy.

01:07:54   I'll have the low-end aluminum sides,

01:07:56   which won't show fingerprints.

01:07:58   I will be able to go without a case,

01:08:00   'cause of its size and grippiness,

01:08:02   which means the buttons will feel better,

01:08:04   it'll feel better in my hand, it'll look nicer.

01:08:07   So I think it'll be a substantial upgrade

01:08:10   to go to the Mini in terms of just handling and feel.

01:08:15   I think it'll feel great.

01:08:17   - You can get a cool color, too.

01:08:18   - Well, asterisk.

01:08:20   - Hmm, why?

01:08:21   - You can get a cool color if you like blue

01:08:23   or a potashio green, but I'm a red person mostly in colors,

01:08:28   and the red is not a good red.

01:08:32   Well, it's not a good red for me, it's not what I want.

01:08:34   It's definitely like, yeah, it's like a coral

01:08:36   or salmon kind of color, it's pretty far from--

01:08:38   - You don't like the blue?

01:08:39   What's wrong with the blue?

01:08:40   Let me look at the blue.

01:08:41   - It's a little flat for me, honestly,

01:08:43   but I'm not much of a blue person.

01:08:46   Blue is not one of my favorite colors.

01:08:49   It's fine, I get some things that are blue,

01:08:50   but I don't love it enough to make it my phone for a year,

01:08:54   whereas the red, I would if it was a more deep red,

01:08:59   but unfortunately it's not, so what I think,

01:09:02   this is the one thing I'm not excited about is the color.

01:09:04   I think I'm gonna go either white or black.

01:09:07   I'm leaning towards white, and I'm not gonna get a chance

01:09:10   to see them in person, I don't think, anytime soon.

01:09:13   - Oh, the black, the black looks really black, too.

01:09:15   Have you seen a black one in a review yet?

01:09:17   Or I guess no one has, because the minis aren't out yet,

01:09:19   but have you seen a 12 in black?

01:09:22   - I have, I've tried to find every video I can

01:09:25   where people actually have them and are unboxing them

01:09:28   and showing them off.

01:09:29   This is not very many videos yet.

01:09:31   And I don't think I've seen a black one yet.

01:09:34   That's actually, that's in more like the YouTube reviewers

01:09:36   or anything like that.

01:09:37   But regardless, I'm leaning towards white,

01:09:40   but again, regardless, I haven't ordered,

01:09:43   to answer your question in the longest possible way, Casey,

01:09:46   I haven't ordered anything yet.

01:09:47   - Seriously, this is a long way to say I ordered nothing.

01:09:48   Although you did, you ordered a phone for Tiff.

01:09:50   - No, I didn't order a phone for Tiff.

01:09:51   The Max and the Mini are the same day.

01:09:53   - Oh, that's right, that she has to wait, too, yeah.

01:09:55   Does she know what color she's getting to?

01:09:57   - Blue, yeah, as soon as the blue is shown on screen

01:10:01   at the event, she's like, all right, get me that.

01:10:03   All right, biggest one of that, that's it, done.

01:10:05   - You know, I'd give us, you and me, Marco,

01:10:10   if you were to get a blue Mini, which I know you're not,

01:10:13   but if you were to get a blue Mini,

01:10:14   I'd say there's one chance in three

01:10:16   that you and I will swap phones at some point this year.

01:10:19   (laughing)

01:10:20   I'm laughing, but I'm not joking.

01:10:22   'Cause I think I said this last week,

01:10:25   you know, the meme with the guy holding the girlfriend's hand

01:10:27   and looking back at the other girl,

01:10:29   I am holding the hand of the forthcoming iPhone 12 Pro,

01:10:33   but looking back at that Mini, thinking, hmm,

01:10:36   is that the phone I really want?

01:10:38   - Again, I think if you're the kind of idiot like us

01:10:41   who upgrades every year,

01:10:42   I think it's hard to get excited about

01:10:44   this one particular thing if you're in the middle size.

01:10:48   If you're at the small, that's awesome.

01:10:50   It's a brand new size, it's probably gonna feel great.

01:10:53   It's gonna have a few compromises,

01:10:54   maybe it's gonna take a little while

01:10:56   to get used to the typing, I'm sure,

01:10:57   but it's gonna feel great.

01:10:59   If you're at the big end,

01:11:00   you get that amazing new camera upgrade.

01:11:02   If you're in the middle, it's not a massive sell

01:11:06   as a year-over-year upgrade.

01:11:08   Again, I know it's ridiculous

01:11:10   to have year-over-year upgrade discussions,

01:11:11   but look, this is our show, this is what we talk about.

01:11:13   So if we're gonna be these kind of idiots,

01:11:16   I feel like there's gonna be a lot of us tech podcasters

01:11:19   and adjacent fans and enthusiasts

01:11:22   who end up going through more than one size this year

01:11:26   because you have this weird trade-off,

01:11:28   and the middle size is a pretty substantial compromise,

01:11:33   whereas the top size and the bottom size

01:11:38   are both much more exciting for different reasons.

01:11:41   - Yeah, I think that's fair.

01:11:42   I still stand by that I think this lineup of phones,

01:11:46   with an asterisk here and a dagger there,

01:11:49   I do think this is one of the most,

01:11:50   if not the most compelling range of iPhones

01:11:52   that Apple has ever offered.

01:11:54   But yeah, if you're on the 11 Pro like I am today,

01:11:59   it is of questionable importance

01:12:03   whether or not you need to upgrade, like you were saying.

01:12:07   But yeah, so I bought, Aaron and I each,

01:12:09   a 12 Pro, both 256 gigs,

01:12:14   She White, Me Blue, which I'm very excited about.

01:12:17   Blue is my favorite color.

01:12:19   I'm super excited about this blue.

01:12:20   It's funny, when I'd seen the photographs

01:12:24   of the Mini Blue, which I think they just call blue,

01:12:27   and the Pacific Blue of the Pro,

01:12:29   I thought I actually preferred the Mini's shade of blue,

01:12:34   but now having seen some more video and pictures

01:12:38   and whatnot of the Pro,

01:12:39   I feel like I actually kind of prefer

01:12:41   the more muted blue of the Pacific Blue, the Pro Blue.

01:12:45   But we'll see what happens.

01:12:47   At some point, I'm sure I will see a Mini

01:12:49   and I might change my mind.

01:12:51   But nevertheless, we each ordered iPhone 12s.

01:12:56   I got two years worth of AppleCare

01:12:58   because I figure I'm probably gonna run this caselist

01:13:01   and we saw how that went last time,

01:13:02   so it's probably wise for me to get AppleCare.

01:13:05   Erin, what I did for her,

01:13:08   which was the first time she's ever had AppleCares,

01:13:11   I did month to month for her

01:13:12   because we haven't yet concluded what case she would like.

01:13:17   And in the past, she's run the very light pink

01:13:21   silicon, silicon, silicon, I always get it wrong, I'm sorry,

01:13:24   the PlastiKey case.

01:13:25   And this year, they don't really have a good pink option.

01:13:29   And either way, those cases tend to fall apart on her

01:13:32   after like six to eight months anyway.

01:13:36   So my thought process was, well, I'll just do like a couple,

01:13:40   like a month or maybe two months of AppleCare Plus for her.

01:13:42   So God forbid she pulls a casey

01:13:44   and drops the thing immediately, then we'll be all right.

01:13:47   And then once she gets herself a case that she likes,

01:13:49   then I'll just cancel the AppleCare on hers

01:13:51   and we won't have to worry about it anymore.

01:13:54   But all in all, the buying process was pretty decent.

01:13:58   It's so much nicer doing it at eight in the morning

01:14:02   rather than, what was it, three in the morning in the past,

01:14:04   is that right? - Yeah.

01:14:06   - Which was just awful.

01:14:08   And it is funny to me hearing the people in the left coast

01:14:11   whining about their five in the morning

01:14:13   because I would argue that getting up at five in the morning

01:14:16   to order a phone, that's just inconvenient.

01:14:19   Getting up at three in the morning

01:14:20   is like destroying your sleep for the night.

01:14:23   And it was so frustrating, we did it for years.

01:14:26   But yeah, I used the Apple Store app

01:14:29   and it worked reasonably well.

01:14:31   Californians, or at least Apple never seems to be punctual,

01:14:35   so it wasn't until like 805 or something like that

01:14:38   that it finally went and allowed me to buy the phones.

01:14:41   But it was fairly straightforward.

01:14:43   And theoretically, they're coming this Friday.

01:14:47   Aaron's is still in China,

01:14:49   mine is somewhere between Anchorage and my house.

01:14:52   It left Anchorage like a day or two ago

01:14:54   and yet still hasn't moved.

01:14:56   I think it's because they like,

01:14:57   I forget where customs happens in this process.

01:14:59   Every year I remind myself as I'm watching

01:15:02   these tracking numbers fly by,

01:15:03   "Oh yeah, that's the time when they like

01:15:06   "finally let it through customs and it actually moves."

01:15:08   And I should write notes on this so I can remember.

01:15:10   But I haven't actually gotten,

01:15:13   in case you're listening to this and you're like,

01:15:14   "Wait, wait, wait, how does he have a tracking number?"

01:15:16   I haven't gotten the official tracking number from Apple,

01:15:18   but the trick that we've talked about

01:15:19   that works for many years,

01:15:20   and I put a blog post up about it

01:15:22   that we'll link to in the show notes,

01:15:24   is if you go to UPS, if you're in America

01:15:26   and if you go to UPS and you do a track by reference

01:15:31   and you use either the first like several characters

01:15:34   of your order number, I forget how many,

01:15:35   but more importantly if you use your phone number,

01:15:37   you know, no hyphens, no parentheses, et cetera,

01:15:40   then almost always that'll come up

01:15:42   with actual tracking numbers for your phones,

01:15:45   easily days before Apple has issued a tracking number.

01:15:48   And additionally, if you're a UPS My Choice person,

01:15:51   it showed up on my calendar for today, actually.

01:15:54   It showed up on my calendar, like delivery calendar,

01:15:56   like two or three days ago.

01:15:57   Obviously it was not delivered today,

01:15:59   which is of no great surprise,

01:16:00   but that would've been a neat treat if it had worked out.

01:16:03   But I plan as John to probably potentially get a leather case

01:16:08   if I get one at all.

01:16:09   I've always really liked the Apple leather cases,

01:16:12   but given that I have AppleCare on it,

01:16:13   I'll probably just roll caseless again

01:16:15   and we'll see what happens.

01:16:17   But like I said, Marco, it would not surprise me,

01:16:20   I really mean this, if you say to me at some point

01:16:22   or I say to you at some point,

01:16:24   "So Marco, how are you liking that Mini?

01:16:29   "What are you thinking about maybe doing

01:16:30   "a little switcheroo for a little while?"

01:16:32   - Marco would never wait to get your phone,

01:16:34   he would just order himself a 12 Pro.

01:16:35   - Yeah, that's true.

01:16:37   Also, I think I'm thinking about doing AppleCare myself

01:16:41   because of that monthly option now.

01:16:44   Because if I keep it for 12 months,

01:16:47   on the Mini it's eight bucks a month, so it's $96.

01:16:50   - Oh, that's actually not bad at all.

01:16:52   - Yeah, and the leather case is gonna be like 60 or 50,

01:16:54   right, that's just what it costs.

01:16:55   So I figure maybe this will just be my case for the year.

01:17:00   'Cause I do plan to go caseless with the Mini.

01:17:04   I would like a small amount of protection maybe.

01:17:07   And for 100 bucks for the year to literally

01:17:12   then not have to worry about it at all,

01:17:14   might be worth it, I don't know.

01:17:17   So I might try that this year

01:17:19   'cause the monthly option really changes things.

01:17:21   - Yeah, I feel the same way in a lot of ways.

01:17:23   - Oh, interesting, M2_Mike in the chat points out,

01:17:27   Apple has never made a leather case for the non-Pro phones.

01:17:32   Is that true?

01:17:33   I think that is true. - I wouldn't know that.

01:17:33   - Get back into coach class, pleb.

01:17:35   - The kids say pleb now.

01:17:39   Are you familiar with this?

01:17:40   I know the word. - Are you being serious?

01:17:41   - Yeah, but now the little kids

01:17:43   who hear these words on YouTube, they say pleb.

01:17:46   - Oh my goodness, I also say sus, I'm just ignoring them.

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01:19:44   All right, so 90 minutes into the show,

01:19:46   should we leave follow up?

01:19:49   As if we had any structure this week.

01:19:51   Don't try to blame follow up on this show.

01:19:54   Should we just go into Ask ATP?

01:19:55   I'm kind of not kidding.

01:19:56   Let's do it.

01:19:57   All right, let's start with some Ask ATP

01:19:59   now that follow up's done.

01:20:02   Oh my god.

01:20:03   Have any of us tried watchOS sleep tracking?

01:20:05   Asks Eduardo Berner.

01:20:07   I have not.

01:20:08   I have used-- oh, shoot, I can't remember the name of the app.

01:20:11   But I used an iPhone app years ago where basically you

01:20:13   would plug your phone-- this is pre-Chi--

01:20:15   you would plug your phone into your lightning cable

01:20:17   and stick it under your sheet, under your fitted sheet

01:20:19   if you can or under your pillow or whatever.

01:20:22   And I actually liked it, if I remember

01:20:23   I'll put it in the show notes.

01:20:25   But it wasn't stupendous.

01:20:27   I haven't tried the watchOS sleep tracking

01:20:29   because honestly I don't feel like I have real sleep

01:20:34   problems generally.

01:20:35   I mean, obviously I have a night here and there

01:20:37   where I can't sleep for nothing.

01:20:39   But generally speaking, I sleep pretty well.

01:20:41   So I'm not too worried about it.

01:20:42   Let's start with John.

01:20:43   John, have you tried watchOS sleep tracking?

01:20:45   You don't even really wear a watch, do you, right?

01:20:47   Because you have an ancient one.

01:20:49   I do not wear a watch, so no, I haven't tried this.

01:20:52   And I do not have nights where I can't sleep.

01:20:56   I have mornings where I can't get up, which is all of them.

01:21:01   Marco?

01:21:03   I have never done any kind of sleep tracking

01:21:05   for any device of any kind, including the Apple Watch.

01:21:08   If I wanted to try sleep tracking,

01:21:10   that's what I would do.

01:21:12   But it's never been a thing that I particularly cared about.

01:21:17   I kind of know already that I don't

01:21:20   have any massive sleep problems, except like most people,

01:21:25   I should probably get a bit more of it.

01:21:27   And I know that already.

01:21:29   And having a metric to be tracked,

01:21:34   I don't think is going to motivate

01:21:37   me to change that any more than my own internal guilt would

01:21:41   otherwise motivate me.

01:21:43   But I think it also helps that as I'm

01:21:45   getting older and more boring, I actually

01:21:48   am getting tired earlier.

01:21:52   So I'm kind of automatically developing healthier sleep

01:21:56   habits over time.

01:21:58   It's something that's not really--

01:22:00   I don't see a need for it in my life right now.

01:22:02   As you get older, also, you enter the times

01:22:05   when your quality of sleep may go down.

01:22:06   So I think one thing that the watch can help with potentially

01:22:09   is not just telling you how long you slept, because if you don't

01:22:11   have sleep problems, like, well, I went to bed at this time,

01:22:13   and I woke up at this time.

01:22:14   I can do the math.

01:22:14   It's not difficult. But as you get older,

01:22:18   various sleep problems may cause you to have restless sleep

01:22:22   or sleep that is not as restful as the night of sleep.

01:22:26   Despite the fact that as far as you're concerned

01:22:28   you're asleep the whole time, are you really getting refresh?

01:22:31   So the watch would tell you--

01:22:34   maybe even tell you if you have breathing problems

01:22:36   when you're sleeping based on your heart rate.

01:22:38   Who knows?

01:22:39   But that's a sleep-- all I want to say

01:22:41   is that sleep tracking is not just about, hey,

01:22:43   how long did I sleep or did I sleep OK?

01:22:44   There's a little bit more to it than that.

01:22:47   I can't even bear wearing a watch during the day, though.

01:22:49   I can't imagine wearing one while I try to sleep.

01:22:52   I really don't want things attached to my wrist.

01:22:54   I actually don't find it to be too bad,

01:22:56   but I have no problem wearing a watch in general.

01:22:58   So it's not surprising to me that you

01:23:00   would say on no uncertain terms would I ever

01:23:03   want this while I'm sleeping.

01:23:04   Oh, actually, can I put some follow-up in here?

01:23:08   Oh, sure, why not?

01:23:10   Just totally bring the format.

01:23:11   This is the follow-up that will not end.

01:23:12   I've mean you to this follow-up for a while,

01:23:14   and I kept forgetting.

01:23:16   Back when I first got to try the new Apple Watch Sport--

01:23:20   is it the Sport Loop?

01:23:21   The new fixed length one?

01:23:23   Is that--

01:23:24   Oh, yeah, I know what you're thinking.

01:23:25   I think that's right.

01:23:26   The Sport Circle.

01:23:28   Solo Loop.

01:23:29   That's it.

01:23:30   I knew I was wrong.

01:23:31   I couldn't figure out what-- OK.

01:23:32   The new Apple Watch Sport Circle.

01:23:33   Sport Circle is good, too.

01:23:35   Yes.

01:23:35   [LAUGHTER]

01:23:38   Anyway, a few people wrote in to point out a benefit of that.

01:23:40   Because basically, my conclusion--

01:23:42   I'm still actually waiting for my correctly sized one

01:23:45   to come in.

01:23:46   I think it's coming in in a few days.

01:23:48   But my incorrectly sized one, I basically

01:23:50   judge it as like, it's nice, but it

01:23:53   didn't seem worth the inconveniences compared

01:23:57   to the regular sport band to be really worth it

01:24:00   for most people.

01:24:00   But a few people wrote in to point out something

01:24:03   I hadn't considered, which is if you have metal allergies, which

01:24:06   many people do, and certain metals irritate

01:24:10   your skin in certain ways.

01:24:11   Usually, we heard from a number of people

01:24:13   who said that they can't wear the usual sport band.

01:24:15   Because where the metal pin is, even that little bit of metal

01:24:19   touching their skin irritates them.

01:24:21   And if you switch over to the Sport Circle,

01:24:24   you don't have any metal touching your skin.

01:24:27   The only things that touch your skin

01:24:28   are the rubbery whatever of the band,

01:24:32   and the little bit of the ceramic circle

01:24:35   on the bottom of the watch that forms the bottom crystal

01:24:37   of the watch.

01:24:38   What about the whole aluminum or stainless steel

01:24:40   case of the watch?

01:24:41   None of that touches you?

01:24:43   That's a good question.

01:24:44   I don't know.

01:24:45   You can get a ceramic watch, I guess,

01:24:47   and that will solve that problem.

01:24:48   Not anymore.

01:24:49   But if you're super reactive, titanium

01:24:53   tends to be fairly unreactive.

01:24:54   So that's still an option in the lineup.

01:24:57   But if you look at the way the Apple Watch rests on your wrist,

01:25:00   very little of the case really ever contacts your skin.

01:25:03   The big bulb on the bottom of the ceramic for all the lenses

01:25:07   and stuff kind of pushes the watch up above your skin.

01:25:11   So that might not irritate people very much.

01:25:14   And I think--

01:25:15   I mean, I'm looking at the bottom of it now.

01:25:18   Because the bulb itself isn't the only ceramic part.

01:25:21   That whole bottom round-rect, the whole bottom plate of it

01:25:25   is the ceramic material.

01:25:28   So I think that actually might not

01:25:30   be a problem for any of the metals,

01:25:32   except for whatever bit of side touching.

01:25:35   If you flex your wrist up, you'd rub against it a little bit.

01:25:37   But for the most part, I don't know.

01:25:39   We'll have to hear from people who

01:25:41   have that kind of sensitivity on how much the case

01:25:43   metal is a problem.

01:25:44   But it looks like it wouldn't be much of a problem for most

01:25:47   people based on its design.

01:25:50   All right, moving on.

01:25:51   Jayanth Viswaswaran writes, I'm curious what's taking up

01:25:55   128 gigs of space in your phones.

01:25:57   I've been getting by just fine with a 64 gig device using only

01:26:01   about 50 gigs, although I don't take a lot of videos.

01:26:04   But even if I did, I'm guessing it should all just be backed up

01:26:06   to iCloud anyway.

01:26:07   Well, except for me.

01:26:09   So I'm curious, what are the most data heavy apps

01:26:11   that you use?

01:26:12   And as a side note, I'm somewhat annoyed

01:26:15   that you can't choose how much local storage

01:26:17   photos is allowed to take up.

01:26:18   It only takes up 10 gigs with a library on iCloud of 100 gigs

01:26:23   for this individual.

01:26:24   But I wish I could limit it to take up just one gig.

01:26:27   Yeah, that's fair.

01:26:28   For me, I'll put in the show notes an actual screenshot of

01:26:32   my iPhone usage, which I looked at and I haven't touched.

01:26:37   But this is how I got to 121 and 1/2 gigs used on my iPhone

01:26:42   11 Pro.

01:26:43   Basically, it's a crud load of photos and a fair bit in the

01:26:47   DJI Go app, which is the app that I use for my gimbal.

01:26:50   And those are all probably old and probably deleteable.

01:26:52   But they're still there.

01:26:54   That's 12 gigs in there.

01:26:57   And then Overcast is using nearly six gigs.

01:27:00   I believe you mean you have chosen to download six gigs of

01:27:03   podcasts in Overcast.

01:27:05   Touche, touche.

01:27:06   This is because I'm deeply behind on pretty much every

01:27:08   podcast I like to listen to.

01:27:10   And although actually the most surprising to me of all these

01:27:13   was Safari using three gigs.

01:27:15   I have no idea how that's happening.

01:27:17   Maybe it's counting browser caches.

01:27:19   I think it is, because it lets you drill down and you can see

01:27:22   website data.

01:27:23   Oh, I didn't even see that.

01:27:24   And at first I thought website data was just whatever

01:27:26   like the persistent JavaScript crap that advertisers use,

01:27:31   like local databases and everything.

01:27:33   And my first one for that is like Shopify.com, 80 megs.

01:27:36   I'm like, what the hell?

01:27:37   But then right down there I see Overcast FM, 24 megs, and

01:27:41   Marco.org, 14 megs.

01:27:43   And I thought, well, that's weird.

01:27:45   I know what Overcast and Marco.org do, and they don't do

01:27:48   anything with local stories.

01:27:51   Marco.org doesn't even set cookies.

01:27:53   How does it use 14 megs?

01:27:54   And so I think what it is, when you have tabs open, it

01:27:58   might be like serializing that memory to disk so it can

01:28:01   restore them.

01:28:02   And counting that, it has to store that somewhere.

01:28:05   It has to be counted somewhere.

01:28:06   So that's my best guess.

01:28:08   That's interesting.

01:28:08   Yeah, I'm trying to load it.

01:28:09   Oh, there you go.

01:28:10   YouTube is using 160 megs.

01:28:13   Oh, and by the way, before I leave Safari, sorry.

01:28:16   Offline reading list is counted for separately as well.

01:28:19   And for that I have 400 megs.

01:28:22   Oh, wow.

01:28:23   Yeah, like Medium, because Medium is so great in so many

01:28:26   ways, is 100 megs.

01:28:27   New York Times, 70 megs.

01:28:29   There's a lot of stuff here, some of which I would expect

01:28:31   and some of which not.

01:28:32   But apparently website data adds up to 2.3 gigs once I

01:28:36   drill into it.

01:28:37   Yeah, mine was not that different.

01:28:39   So I will point out also for yours, first of all, I also

01:28:42   had the DJI app that was storing a copy of all of the

01:28:46   video that my drone ever shot.

01:28:47   Oh, yeah, that'll get big quick.

01:28:49   Yeah, it was like six gigs or something.

01:28:53   But when I first opened the screen, I had something like

01:28:57   130 gigs used.

01:28:59   But with a couple of minutes of pruning, I

01:29:03   have it down to 88.

01:29:05   Oh, wow.

01:29:06   And so I actually think I might do the 128 gig phone.

01:29:09   That'd save $100.

01:29:11   Wow, look at you.

01:29:12   Like, I'm really talking myself down in price on a few

01:29:15   things here.

01:29:16   This is not going to happen.

01:29:18   You're going to get the 256.

01:29:19   Why are you even pretending?

01:29:20   Yeah, you are.

01:29:20   Maybe.

01:29:21   Well, but one thing I'll point out, as the listener

01:29:24   mentioned, Photos only uses a much smaller amount of space.

01:29:29   Yeah, like for me, Photos uses--

01:29:31   well, I don't know how it's accounting for this.

01:29:33   It says Photos uses 117 gigs, but yet I have not even close

01:29:40   to that.

01:29:40   Oh, now it refreshed.

01:29:42   Eight gigs.

01:29:43   God, this screen is buggy.

01:29:44   Yeah, I don't understand the refreshing on the screen.

01:29:46   I was looking at it for this question.

01:29:47   I was looking at it otherwise.

01:29:48   I was like, what changes in the first minute

01:29:51   and the second minute the screen is up to adjust

01:29:53   these numbers in such huge ways?

01:29:54   It's very strange.

01:29:55   I get emails all the time from people saying--

01:29:58   because at Overcast, I have a storage manager screen

01:30:01   in the app where you can see what is using all the space.

01:30:05   And there's actually a small bug in the current version

01:30:07   where it's not counting a second copy of your database.

01:30:11   So whatever you see for data, double that.

01:30:13   But the podcast things are accurate.

01:30:15   But anyway, I get emails from people all the time saying,

01:30:19   the storage manager screen says I'm using this many gigs,

01:30:22   but the iPhone storage screen says

01:30:24   I'm using like 10 gigs more.

01:30:26   What's the problem?

01:30:27   And I have no idea.

01:30:29   When I went into the DJI app earlier this evening

01:30:33   to delete all those drone videos,

01:30:36   I had to reboot the phone before the iPhone storage usage

01:30:40   screen actually refreshed to display that information.

01:30:44   So I don't know what is going on with the counting

01:30:45   of the screen, but it's probably at least approximate.

01:30:48   I am using 40 gigs for music, 22 of which is Fish alone.

01:30:53   Of course.

01:30:54   I'm surprised you have that much other than Fish.

01:30:57   Yeah, right.

01:30:58   But that's the biggest user.

01:31:00   My photos is only 8.6 gigs.

01:31:03   And Casey, your photos are 41 gigs

01:31:05   because you don't use iCloud Photo

01:31:08   Library for some reason still.

01:31:10   Well, because I just haven't gotten around to it.

01:31:12   Because it's kludgy, because I want the system of record

01:31:16   for my photos to be the Synology.

01:31:17   I can't have a network drive as the system of record

01:31:20   for photos.app on my Mac.

01:31:22   That's the short of it.

01:31:24   Now, I know there's ways around it.

01:31:25   I'm not arguing that I can't fix it.

01:31:27   But that's what it boils down to is

01:31:30   that I would have to duplicate my photo library onto like

01:31:32   a attached drive or something like that

01:31:35   just to get photos.app happy, which is really frustrating.

01:31:39   But yeah, I'm actually surprised I have 40 gigs of photos.

01:31:41   Because my workflow, which is extremely complicated

01:31:44   but works for me, is that once a month,

01:31:47   I pull the photos off of my phone.

01:31:50   And so I leave myself a month of photos.

01:31:54   So I do this in the middle of the month.

01:31:55   So just about a week ago, I took all of the photos

01:32:01   off of my phone and ingested them and stuffed them

01:32:03   on the Synology.

01:32:03   Well, I shouldn't say I took them off the phone.

01:32:05   I imported them.

01:32:06   And then I put them all in the Synology.

01:32:09   But I leave the most recent month.

01:32:13   So I have on my phone basically photos since mid-September.

01:32:17   Because I did this in mid-September

01:32:18   and left a month before then.

01:32:20   I did it in mid-October, and I leave the last month.

01:32:23   And so I'm surprised that I somehow

01:32:25   got to 40 gigs on what should only

01:32:28   be a month's worth of photos.

01:32:30   And certainly what I need to do is sometime tomorrow

01:32:32   in preparation for when the phone gets here on Friday,

01:32:35   I need to clean a lot of this stuff

01:32:36   up because the more stuff that I have going into--

01:32:41   well, I almost said iTunes-- into Finder, I guess,

01:32:43   as an encrypted backup, that's all

01:32:45   going to have to come back out on the new phone.

01:32:47   And so if I can clean all that out for myself,

01:32:50   then that'll make my backup and restore considerably quicker

01:32:53   when the new phone arrives.

01:32:54   So I need to do that.

01:32:56   All right.

01:32:57   And then finally, Tobogranet writes,

01:32:59   is John planning on ever buying an OLED TV,

01:33:01   or is he going to skip this technology

01:33:03   and wait for the next, such as micro LED?

01:33:05   Is Casey ever planning to ask me about the storage on my phone,

01:33:08   or is he just going to skip that and go right for the next?

01:33:10   Oh, sorry.

01:33:10   I completely forgot about you.

01:33:12   Marco and I flapped our gums so darn long,

01:33:14   I completely forgot.

01:33:15   I'm sorry, John.

01:33:15   That's very rude of me.

01:33:17   John, tell me about the storage on your phone.

01:33:18   I'm using-- with the caveat that the screen is mysterious

01:33:23   and adjusts numbers by large amounts

01:33:25   when seemingly nothing has happened on your phone,

01:33:27   I'm using 120 gigs-ish of storage.

01:33:32   My top apps, number one, what's your guess?

01:33:34   I'm going to say number one, Photos, number two, Music,

01:33:37   number three, Messages.

01:33:38   Casey?

01:33:39   I would say Photos first.

01:33:43   I don't think you put that much music on your phone.

01:33:45   I would actually say Overcast is in the top three,

01:33:48   and Messages is another good idea.

01:33:49   Yeah, I would say that too.

01:33:50   Casey is the closest.

01:33:51   Number one, Overcast, because I'm a hoarder.

01:33:54   21 gigs.

01:33:55   Oh my god.

01:33:56   Goodness.

01:33:57   You're killing me.

01:33:59   On Overcast, I have some whole shows

01:34:01   that are no longer available, just there.

01:34:04   For reference, my Overcast is three gigs.

01:34:07   All right.

01:34:07   Yeah, now I got a lot of shows.

01:34:08   I know I do.

01:34:09   Now you know why I'm always asking for filtering

01:34:12   and search box on playlists and stuff.

01:34:15   Now you know why.

01:34:16   Search box on playlists?

01:34:18   I never thought about that.

01:34:19   You have, because I suggested it to you on the show.

01:34:21   That's a good idea, but then you didn't write it down anymore.

01:34:24   That's a good idea.

01:34:25   I'll remember it.

01:34:26   Oh, sure you will.

01:34:27   Number two, Instapaper at 16.5 gigabytes.

01:34:32   Good.

01:34:32   All right, it's been a while since I've seen that code,

01:34:35   but how?

01:34:36   How?

01:34:37   What are you saving in there?

01:34:38   I mean, I guess it never gets rid of things.

01:34:40   Like, I Instapaper a lot, and I read them, and I archive them,

01:34:43   but I guess I don't understand how it is managing its storage.

01:34:46   I know I have a ton of stuff in Instapaper from years

01:34:49   of using it, but I don't-- you know, whatever.

01:34:51   Anyway, number two, Instapaper.

01:34:53   Number three, music at 15 gigs.

01:34:55   Number four, photos at a mere five gigs.

01:34:57   Remember, I don't have the real photo library.

01:34:59   Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:35:00   And I also tele-optimized storage, so whatever.

01:35:03   And after that is Plex at three gigs, Books at two gigs,

01:35:07   GarageBand, which I actually just deleted, 1.5 gigs,

01:35:10   and then it trails off from there.

01:35:12   And to be clear, people are like,

01:35:13   why are those apps so big?

01:35:14   This isn't the apps.

01:35:15   The apps are tiny.

01:35:15   It's the data that goes with the apps.

01:35:17   All the top contenders, this is all just attributable to data

01:35:20   associated with the apps.

01:35:21   Eventually, as you scroll down, you

01:35:23   get to things where it's just the app.

01:35:24   But all the top consumers are apps that have data.

01:35:28   See, mine was actually-- part of the reason

01:35:30   I got 30 gigs back earlier tonight was there were just--

01:35:34   I had some games installed that-- and somebody said,

01:35:37   this is a really good game.

01:35:38   So I went and downloaded it, and it was like 600 megs

01:35:41   or whatever.

01:35:42   And it's been sitting on my phone for three years.

01:35:45   And I never launched it.

01:35:47   And I deleted things like-- I deleted iMovie,

01:35:50   because I'm never going to use iMovie.

01:35:52   You didn't enable that feature that it always suggests,

01:35:54   which is like, hey, well, we will uninstall and offload apps

01:35:57   that you haven't launched in a long time.

01:35:59   It offers that to me.

01:36:00   And it says it can save a little over 10 gigs by doing that.

01:36:03   But I've heard bad stories about people who, like, it offloads

01:36:08   an app that you really do need there.

01:36:12   I don't like the idea of that being automatic.

01:36:15   I think it would be a better idea for me

01:36:17   to just go through one day, go through the whole app library,

01:36:20   and just delete any app that I can honestly say,

01:36:23   I'm never going to use this.

01:36:25   Or rather, this has been on my phone for three years,

01:36:27   and I have never used it.

01:36:28   So odds are pretty good that I'm never going to use it.

01:36:32   Like, I'm never going to actually get to this game.

01:36:34   I'm never going to watch the fancy movies on Netflix.

01:36:37   I'm never going to play this game.

01:36:38   I know that about myself.

01:36:39   I'm just-- I don't play long games on my phone.

01:36:44   I play crappy little two-second games on my phone.

01:36:47   And so all these fancy games that

01:36:49   have all this great art that are 600 megs each,

01:36:52   I can delete all of them, and I won't even notice.

01:36:54   That kind of thing, I'm glad the screen was here,

01:36:57   and I'm glad we had to look at it for this homework,

01:36:59   because I get rid of a whole bunch of space from stuff

01:37:02   that I didn't even know I was losing space to.

01:37:06   All right, John, tell me.

01:37:08   Toby Granite would like to know, are you ever planning on buying

01:37:11   an OLED TV, or are you just going to skip this technology

01:37:13   and wait for the next, such as microLED?

01:37:16   Is this your attempt not to have the fact

01:37:18   that you skipped over me in the last question included

01:37:20   in the program by you trying to give a clean at a point?

01:37:23   Because I feel like that's not going to happen.

01:37:26   I was thinking about it, but now it's not going to happen.

01:37:29   Why do you do-- why are you so mean?

01:37:30   What you are-- what does Merlin call you?

01:37:32   You are my worst friend.

01:37:34   Why am I so mean?

01:37:34   You could have just-- you already read this question.

01:37:37   What about the live listeners?

01:37:38   They're like, didn't Casey just read this question?

01:37:39   Yes, but we got to give the bootleg people something

01:37:42   to be excited about and proud of, that they get to hear--

01:37:45   they get to hear this.

01:37:46   So you are, as with Merlin, you are my--

01:37:49   well, Merlin is not my worst best friend.

01:37:50   You are my worst best friend, Johnson.

01:37:52   It's not your worst best friend.

01:37:53   You're blowing it in typically--

01:37:54   Whatever.

01:37:55   --home fashion.

01:37:55   You're messing up our reference.

01:37:56   Whatever.

01:37:57   I don't care.

01:37:58   It's you.

01:37:58   It's you.

01:37:59   Why are you always bad cop?

01:38:00   That's what I want to know.

01:38:01   So answer the question, please.

01:38:03   All right.

01:38:05   I have been, and I guess still am, planning to buy an OLED TV.

01:38:10   But every year, it's been like, oh, well, this year,

01:38:12   there are some compromises with the OLED.

01:38:14   But next year, they'll probably fix these issues.

01:38:16   And the number of compromises has been steadily

01:38:18   decreasing, but still, every time I look at them, I go,

01:38:22   eh, well, I'll wait until the next year

01:38:23   until they fix this thing.

01:38:24   In particular, this year--

01:38:26   first of all, I'm annoyed that in the US,

01:38:28   we can't get Panasonic OLEDs because for a variety

01:38:31   of reasons, they've had the best picture quality

01:38:34   in a bunch of years, including the current one,

01:38:36   if that's what you care about.

01:38:37   But they're not even sold in the US.

01:38:39   And I don't want to buy some weird European one

01:38:41   because there's always weird differences and yada, yada.

01:38:42   Anyway, so I'm mostly looking at the LGs and the LG C10,

01:38:47   or C, Roman numeral 10, CX, has some weird actual regressions

01:38:52   from the C9.

01:38:53   Not only did they not fix every single thing that

01:38:55   was wrong with the C9, but it brought

01:38:57   some of its own new limitations.

01:38:58   And it's like, oh, maybe it's because of COVID,

01:39:00   and maybe-- who knows what the upshot is.

01:39:03   But there hasn't been much progress in panels

01:39:06   because LG is the only one who makes panels.

01:39:08   So every other TV that you buy is just

01:39:09   an LG panel in there anyway.

01:39:11   And they're not really making progress on these panels

01:39:13   because everybody is trying to pick their next screen

01:39:16   technology.

01:39:17   Samsung has one bet on a particular kind

01:39:20   of panel technology.

01:39:21   And LG is betting on a slightly different one.

01:39:24   And it's not clear when they're going to be ready.

01:39:26   So it's almost like this is the tail end of OLED.

01:39:29   Because if LG is just going to keep making the same panel

01:39:32   while shifting its focus to the other kind of panels,

01:39:36   I don't know.

01:39:37   So I haven't made a decision that I'm just

01:39:41   not getting an OLED.

01:39:42   I still want to.

01:39:43   I just want there to be an OLED that mostly gets rid

01:39:46   of-- that has all the interfaces that we want,

01:39:48   that has all the HDMI 2.1 with all the features

01:39:50   and the maximum bandwidth, that does really good black frame

01:39:55   insertion instead of the weird one, that has good near black

01:39:57   handling, that has the auto low latency mode and the variable

01:40:02   refresh rate, and all the features and the best software

01:40:06   that handles all the new interfaces

01:40:07   and works well with all the new game consoles, all the things.

01:40:11   And we're just not quite there.

01:40:13   Every year is like, well, maybe next year.

01:40:14   This year is just like last year.

01:40:16   I'm saying, oh, maybe next year the TVs will--

01:40:19   there'll be a TV that has fewer compromises.

01:40:22   The good news is the prices are going down.

01:40:23   Like, you can get like a C10, 55-inch C10 for like $1,500

01:40:27   now in sale.

01:40:28   So they're getting cheaper.

01:40:30   And the chips inside them for the user interface

01:40:34   are getting faster.

01:40:35   And the apps that come with the TVs are getting better.

01:40:37   And so while I wait, things are getting better.

01:40:40   And in the meantime, my current TV, it still looks good to me.

01:40:45   Like, I know it's not as good as an OLED.

01:40:47   I know the blacks aren't as good.

01:40:48   It's not even 4K.

01:40:50   But the hurdle for me getting a new one

01:40:52   is like, I have to upgrade everything to support 4K.

01:40:55   And that's a bigger task than just getting a new TV.

01:40:58   So I'm just still waiting.

01:41:00   So the answer is, am I ever planning on buying one?

01:41:03   Yes, ostensibly.

01:41:06   Maybe, possibly.

01:41:09   That's funny.

01:41:10   Well, thank you to our sponsors this week, Linode, Hey.com,

01:41:13   and Mack Weldon.

01:41:15   And thank you to our members who support us directly.

01:41:17   You can do that yourself if you'd

01:41:18   like to by going to ATP.fm/join.

01:41:21   Thanks, everybody.

01:41:22   And we will talk to you next week.

01:41:24   [MUSIC PLAYING]

01:41:27   Now the show is over.

01:41:29   They didn't even mean to begin.

01:41:32   Because it was accidental.

01:41:34   Oh, it was accidental.

01:41:37   John didn't do any research.

01:41:39   Margo and Casey wouldn't let him.

01:41:42   Because it was accidental.

01:41:44   It was accidental.

01:41:45   It was accidental.

01:41:47   Accidental.

01:41:48   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm.

01:41:53   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S.

01:42:02   So that's Casey List M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M.

01:42:07   N-T-M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M-N-S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A.

01:42:14   It's accidental.

01:42:15   It's accidental.

01:42:17   They didn't mean to.

01:42:20   Accidental.

01:42:21   Accidental.

01:42:22   Tech broadcast so long.

01:42:27   This would be a perfect time for Marco

01:42:29   to tell us about his various adventures of Swift

01:42:31   if he hadn't already told us half of them

01:42:32   in the pre, pre, pre, pre show.

01:42:35   Well, first, I'm going to send this image in the chat--

01:42:38   in the private chat, sorry, because it's--

01:42:41   earlier in the show, when we were talking about 5G coverage,

01:42:44   and I said, I'm pretty sure it doesn't cover

01:42:46   where I am right now.

01:42:49   Casey sent these maps in our chat,

01:42:51   in our little private chat channel, screenshots

01:42:53   of AT&T's coverage map, showing that, indeed, it

01:42:56   covers almost everywhere where I would probably go.

01:42:59   Now, I have figured out where my actual house is on this map,

01:43:03   and I superimposed it here and sent it back to you, Casey.

01:43:07   And you can see that while it looks like my house might have

01:43:10   5G coverage, there's a huge hole in coverage on half of my block

01:43:17   and many of the surrounding blocks.

01:43:20   And have you experienced that already?

01:43:22   Because that looks like straight up little to no coverage

01:43:25   from what I'm reading here.

01:43:27   Well, the funny thing is that we have an AT&T cell tower

01:43:33   on a water tower that I have line of sight to from my house

01:43:37   and that covers this entire area very well.

01:43:41   So I don't know why there is this hole in coverage

01:43:44   right here, where it doesn't have 5G, it just has the 4G LTE.

01:43:49   I don't know why there is that hole there,

01:43:51   but it's a few hundred feet from the tower.

01:43:54   [LAUGHTER]

01:43:56   Is it directly below the tower?

01:43:58   It's not directly below the tower,

01:43:59   but it's like three blocks over.

01:44:02   It's not far.

01:44:03   Like that area that is blacked out from the 5G map

01:44:06   can also see the tower with direct line of sight.

01:44:09   It's a flat town with a water tower in the middle.

01:44:11   There's cell phone towers all over it.

01:44:14   Somebody pointed out-- we have to keep this in the show

01:44:16   because this is kind of belated real time follow up, which I

01:44:19   guess just makes it regular follow up.

01:44:21   Somebody pointed out in the chat,

01:44:22   and I didn't have a chance to say anything during the show,

01:44:24   but I don't know if the 5G that's listed on these maps

01:44:29   is actual 5G, or is it the 5GE or whatever that crap--

01:44:33   5G.

01:44:34   --like fake 5G.

01:44:35   Yeah, 5G.

01:44:37   Is this all 5G, or is this actual legitimate 5G?

01:44:41   And knowing AT&T and how shiesty they are,

01:44:43   I bet you anything that none of this is honest to goodness 5G,

01:44:47   and it's actually 5G.

01:44:48   I can tell you because walking around this town that

01:44:51   is mostly covered apparently with their 5G

01:44:54   official coverage, I've never seen the 5GE

01:44:58   thing on my iPhone, whereas I do see 5GE in other places.

01:45:02   OK, so that bodes well then, right?

01:45:04   That would hopefully indicate that this is legitimate 5G.

01:45:07   Yeah, so I'm pretty sure this does indicate

01:45:09   that there is 5G in some of my town that has an AT&T

01:45:14   tower in line of sight.

01:45:16   This doesn't list the millimeter wave anywhere, though.

01:45:19   It's not even a legend.

01:45:21   Does AT&T have millimeter wave deployment?

01:45:23   I looked this up because we got a bunch of feedback there,

01:45:25   like, oh, the reason why Verizon was in that thing

01:45:27   is because Verizon is the only company in the United States

01:45:29   that has millimeter wave.

01:45:30   But that's not true.

01:45:30   I think they all have it coming out.

01:45:32   I think Verizon's first maybe, but AT&T is going to have it.

01:45:35   I think even T-Mobile.

01:45:36   I did a little bit of research on it.

01:45:38   So I expect all the carriers to eventually have--

01:45:41   to support millimeter wave somewhere.

01:45:44   Probably not anywhere near Marco's house,

01:45:46   but in certain streets in New York City,

01:45:49   yeah, there will be millimeter wave 5G on all

01:45:51   the major carriers, I imagine, at this time next year.

01:45:54   But it's probably not relevant at all.

01:45:57   I just comment that it's not even on the legend, right?

01:45:59   So it's like, no, we're not even going

01:46:00   to show you where that might be.

01:46:02   Because you saw Gruber's map on his review.

01:46:04   He had like, here's the city that I live in,

01:46:06   and these six streets have millimeter wave.

01:46:08   Yeah, and actually, to that end, I

01:46:10   would like to file a formal complaint

01:46:12   about Gruber's review.

01:46:14   It was extremely good, except I don't think, for me anyway,

01:46:18   that he had put enough emphasis on how incredibly fast

01:46:23   the millimeter wave, or whatever it's called, 5G is.

01:46:26   Because he mentioned it as kind of like almost an aside

01:46:29   in the review.

01:46:29   I don't recall exactly what his speeds were.

01:46:31   But it was something to the order of like 2 and 1/2

01:46:34   gigabits per second on a freaking phone.

01:46:38   Like this is real world actual results

01:46:41   that he got on these review units.

01:46:44   I know I've told this story 100 times on this show,

01:46:46   and I apologize.

01:46:47   But it really is relevant.

01:46:49   When we moved out of an apartment,

01:46:51   moved into the home that I'm living in now,

01:46:53   we were in a Comcast area, and I hated Comcast,

01:46:56   because everyone hates Comcast.

01:46:58   And then we were moving into a Verizon Fios area.

01:47:00   And this was in 2008 when Fios was still pretty darn new.

01:47:03   And I remember vividly being overjoyed

01:47:07   about a symmetric 15 megabit per second connection.

01:47:11   15.

01:47:12   My iPhone 11 Pro easily gets two to three times

01:47:15   that without even trying.

01:47:16   And now again, this is 2008.

01:47:18   Now we're in 2020.

01:47:19   It's 12 years later.

01:47:19   But 15 megabit I was overjoyed by.

01:47:23   And then eventually I upgraded 75 megabit.

01:47:26   And again, that was amazing.

01:47:28   It was so fast.

01:47:29   Now I have the best Fios I can buy.

01:47:33   I have symmetric gigabit service.

01:47:35   In theory, not of course in reality, but in theory,

01:47:39   there is no difference in me moving a big file from my desk

01:47:43   to my Synology that's three feet away,

01:47:46   than there is from my desk to my dad's house,

01:47:49   who also has a different ISP, but also has gigabit.

01:47:53   60 miles away.

01:47:54   I know that's not literally the case,

01:47:55   but on paper, it should be about the same speed.

01:47:59   That is bananas how quick our internet connection is at home.

01:48:02   And yet, and yet, on this little slab

01:48:07   that's standing in the middle of a street in Philadelphia,

01:48:10   Gruber got two and a half gigabits down.

01:48:13   That is bananas to me.

01:48:15   And I can't believe that it was just like a one liner

01:48:17   off to the side.

01:48:18   That blows my mind.

01:48:21   - Well, 'cause there's so many, it is amazing technically,

01:48:24   but there are so many asterisks on that.

01:48:26   - That's fair, that's fair.

01:48:27   - Yeah, it's only in these very small coverage areas,

01:48:30   like millimeter wave or mm wave, I don't know how

01:48:32   I'm supposed to say this.

01:48:34   It only covers these very small areas,

01:48:36   and you basically have to, it's almost as if

01:48:39   you have to put Wi-Fi routers everywhere.

01:48:40   Like it's that kind of scale coverage.

01:48:44   - It's worse than Wi-Fi because it doesn't penetrate

01:48:46   as well as Wi-Fi even.

01:48:47   It's almost line of sight.

01:48:48   It's not quite line of sight, but almost.

01:48:50   - Right, and so the example everyone keeps giving

01:48:52   of a sports stadium, that makes total sense.

01:48:55   That's great, but in practice, this is gonna be

01:48:59   a rare benefit for most people if it's ever

01:49:03   a benefit to them, like if they ever happen to be

01:49:05   in an area that has this.

01:49:07   Also, again, burn through your data cap in two seconds.

01:49:11   We're kind of solving the wrong problem.

01:49:13   And then of course, as a few people in the chat

01:49:16   are pointing out, it's also interesting that

01:49:19   the tests right now are with empty 5G networks.

01:49:22   Like once everyone has 5G phones,

01:49:26   congestion will become a problem.

01:49:28   Now, allegedly, 5G deals with congestion better than 4G,

01:49:30   and that's great, I look forward to that,

01:49:32   'cause that's the kind of thing that we actually need

01:49:36   cell network advancements to solve.

01:49:38   Like peak speeds in ideal conditions on an empty network

01:49:42   with unlimited plans that don't throttle you,

01:49:45   that's a fantasy for most people.

01:49:48   But actually solving real world congestion in dense areas

01:49:53   or in event spaces like stadiums and concerts and stuff,

01:49:57   that's a real problem to solve.

01:49:59   And if 5G brings significant benefits to that,

01:50:02   that is useful and that is great.

01:50:04   And it all just funnels into our continuing narrative

01:50:08   of like yeah, 5G will be pretty good once it's widespread,

01:50:12   but I still think it's being kind of oversold

01:50:15   in its benefits.

01:50:16   But we'll see when we all have it,

01:50:18   and when in two years it's ubiquitous

01:50:21   and all the phones have it that everyone's using,

01:50:25   and then we can get back to complaining about

01:50:26   how the coverage isn't good enough

01:50:28   and data plans are too small.

01:50:30   If they won't be too slow, they will be too small.

01:50:32   And the coverage will still suck in half of our houses.

01:50:35   - I tell you what though,

01:50:36   it's interesting that you bringing up stadiums,

01:50:38   and this is not new, but back in the before times

01:50:42   15 years ago when we still went to UVA football games,

01:50:45   it was tough to do anything on the internet

01:50:50   in these football stadiums.

01:50:51   And the football stadium is 65-ish thousand people,

01:50:55   which is a lot of people in one small space for sure,

01:50:57   but which God is terrifying to think about now.

01:51:00   Oh my Lord, even though it's all outdoors,

01:51:02   it's still terrifying.

01:51:03   But nevertheless, if I wanted to do anything

01:51:06   on my phone during the game,

01:51:09   it was an exercise in incredible frustration.

01:51:11   And if Mwave does improve that as it claims to,

01:51:16   that would be extremely, extremely welcome.

01:51:19   Because that is one place,

01:51:20   when you have this extraordinary congestion,

01:51:23   that is one thing that I don't feel like

01:51:25   has gotten particularly better in the five or 10 years

01:51:28   that we've had season tickets.

01:51:29   It's always a disaster if the stadium's full.

01:51:33   And there are times when UVA can fill their own stadium

01:51:36   and times when they can't, but nevertheless,

01:51:38   when it's mostly at capacity, it is impossible.

01:51:42   And that's outdoor, it's the perfect place

01:51:44   to put a series of wifi routers.

01:51:46   And actually, I believe the UVA football stadium

01:51:48   has wifi that's for free, and even that gets overwhelmed,

01:51:51   because that's not really designed for 60,000 people.

01:51:54   You know, it reminds me of when we were at Moscone at WWDC,

01:51:58   and I don't remember if they've done this at--

01:52:00   - Oh, I was just gonna say,

01:52:01   does the sports team stop playing

01:52:03   and tell everyone to turn off their mifis?

01:52:05   (laughing)

01:52:07   - No, no, definitely not.

01:52:09   But I remember being at Moscone,

01:52:10   and they would put up a four-pack of TVs

01:52:13   where they would show the wifi

01:52:15   and where the coverage was being,

01:52:17   what was good and where it was bad,

01:52:18   and what the throughput of the entire event was.

01:52:21   And I was always fascinated by that,

01:52:22   because that's so far out of my normal day-to-day,

01:52:25   I don't have to think about that sort of thing.

01:52:27   But yeah, here I am now shilling

01:52:30   for this Ridiculous Verizon thing

01:52:31   that I made so much fun of last week.

01:52:33   But I am very fascinated to see the real-world effects

01:52:38   of not only 5G, but most particularly

01:52:41   this millimeter-wave thing,

01:52:42   if it does come to other carriers.

01:52:44   - The thing that was shocking to me

01:52:45   about Gruber's 5G millimeter-wave numbers

01:52:48   was not the download, but how much worse the upload is.

01:52:52   (laughing)

01:52:53   I suppose part of this is power limits on the phones,

01:52:56   because they don't have power transmitters.

01:52:58   Maybe it's a choice about the network,

01:52:59   but it was, you know, whatever it was,

01:53:02   1.8 gigabits down, 25 to 70 megabits up?

01:53:07   - Oh, that's a very good point.

01:53:08   That's a very, very good point.

01:53:09   - Like that's not, you know, that's two orders of magnitude.

01:53:12   Like, yeah, I mean, it's fine, like your FaceTime will work.

01:53:15   It's not like you're probably gonna be limited too much,

01:53:17   but it's not even 100 megabits.

01:53:19   It's not even like 100 megabit ethernet, right?

01:53:22   So, yeah, we'll see how this works out.

01:53:26   Oh, and also more real-time follow-up

01:53:28   from Gruber specifically.

01:53:29   Apparently there's no 2X button on your Mini

01:53:32   with only two cameras, Marco.

01:53:34   - As far as I know, that is always the case.

01:53:37   You only get those little quick jump buttons

01:53:39   for the actual hardware lenses that the phone has.

01:53:41   So I will miss my 2X button,

01:53:44   but you know, you can still pinch to zoom.

01:53:46   - Yeah.

01:53:47   Or a Gruber suggestion is to just take the photo at 1X

01:53:51   and then crop it later.

01:53:53   - Well, there is a slight difference in things like,

01:53:55   you know, how the JPEG compression,

01:53:57   I won't have ProRAW, so.

01:53:59   (laughing)

01:54:01   Have to deal with like, you know,

01:54:02   like JPEG artifacting and detail at different crop levels.

01:54:06   Like digital zoom is slightly, technically better

01:54:10   at capture time than taking a picture

01:54:12   and then cropping it later, but it's not a big difference.

01:54:15   - Yeah, I'm surprised Apple hasn't started promoting this

01:54:17   because it's, you know, Photoshop, Adobe had an announcement

01:54:20   about the new version of Photoshop

01:54:21   and it's filled with all sorts of machine learning

01:54:24   algorithms for doing stuff to photos that look really cool.

01:54:26   And one of them that you see a lot of everywhere,

01:54:29   both just in still photos and even like even video games.

01:54:31   Now Nvidia has a bunch of tech that they have been

01:54:34   advertising that will essentially allow you to zoom

01:54:37   and add information that's not there through the magic

01:54:39   of machine learning, basically synthesizing pixels

01:54:41   that don't exist to let you essentially zoom in on a photo

01:54:46   and not have it become pixelated or more blurry,

01:54:49   because they will just take information that doesn't exist

01:54:51   and say, but it might've been something like this

01:54:52   and just add it and that would be amazing technology

01:54:56   for doing essentially 2X digital zoom

01:54:58   that does not look as bad as, oh, we just blow up the pixels

01:55:02   and smooth it over.

01:55:02   Now, for all I know, Apple is doing some of that,

01:55:05   but the latest tech in that realm where it's not just like

01:55:08   we treat your image as a big grid of pixels

01:55:10   and do the best we can, it's machine learning algorithms

01:55:14   that try to figure out what it is they're looking at

01:55:16   in some fashion and be able to, essentially the old movie,

01:55:19   the joke of now enhance, being able to actually do that,

01:55:23   albeit by making updated doesn't exist

01:55:25   rather than revealing information that's actually there.

01:55:28   In video games, they do it to allow the game to render

01:55:31   at lower res and then essentially upscale,

01:55:33   but rather than just upscaling where it's like,

01:55:35   oh, I can tell you're rendering this at 1080

01:55:37   and upscaling to 4K, the upscaling is so good

01:55:40   that it's becoming more difficult.

01:55:42   If you don't know what to look for,

01:55:43   it's becoming more difficult to tell whether something

01:55:45   is running in native 4K versus something running at 1440

01:55:48   being intelligently upscaled to 4K.

01:55:52   And so you can get huge frame rate increase

01:55:54   for a marginal loss in quality, right?

01:55:57   So if I told you you could double your frame rate

01:55:59   by having it look a little bit worse,

01:56:00   you would definitely take that.

01:56:02   So that's something Nvidia is doing.

01:56:03   And I hope Apple brings that with their next round

01:56:06   of neural engine magic to say, hey, 2X digital zoom,

01:56:09   but guess what?

01:56:10   This new 2X zoom looks amazing.

01:56:12   I mean, that's kind of what Deep Fusion does.

01:56:14   Like let me bring out detail that's not really there,

01:56:16   but it's not as aggressive.

01:56:17   So all this to say is worst case,

01:56:21   you take the picture at 1X, throw it

01:56:23   into the latest version of Photoshop

01:56:25   and let it work its machine learning magic

01:56:27   to double the resolution and then zoom into 2X.

01:56:30   Or like Casey, take all your photos

01:56:32   and put them in a shoebox and then later try to find one,

01:56:34   dig it out, put it in Photoshop and not there.

01:56:37   I still can't believe you have this workflow

01:56:40   that I still don't understand the benefits

01:56:42   that it's providing because you keep telling us

01:56:44   about the drawbacks, but it's like,

01:56:45   just give it into iCloud photo library.

01:56:49   - Well, the benefit is that all of the data is,

01:56:52   it's like the maniacs who insist on putting plain text

01:56:55   on the file system, right?

01:56:56   It's the same basic premise.

01:56:58   Like all of the raw, not raw as in the file format,

01:57:02   but all the raw files are just sitting on the file system.

01:57:05   They're just there.

01:57:06   Now they're organized by date.

01:57:07   So if I need to find a photo,

01:57:10   as long as I know approximately when it was taken,

01:57:12   it's incredibly quick.

01:57:13   - It's not a benefit.

01:57:14   You can find photos by date in iCloud photo library, I swear.

01:57:18   - Okay, that's fair, that's fair.

01:57:19   (laughing)

01:57:20   - I mean, granted, Apple's Photos app

01:57:24   does make it way harder than it used to be.

01:57:26   I hate that app with such a passion, but it is possible.

01:57:28   - Well, okay, but here you go.

01:57:30   Like if you hate the app with such a passion,

01:57:31   what am I missing then?

01:57:33   What is good about it?

01:57:34   - 'Cause I can do all my crops and edits or whatever

01:57:36   and they show up everywhere across the Apple ID

01:57:39   that has this thing, right?

01:57:40   And I can have some of the photos and devices.

01:57:44   I can have all the photos on other devices.

01:57:46   Like they're still just in the file system

01:57:47   and they get backed up by all my backup programs, right?

01:57:51   No, I don't have a place where I have a bunch of files

01:57:53   organized by date and name, especially,

01:57:54   but like don't you edit your photos?

01:57:56   Like I crop, rotate and adjust like any photo I care about.

01:58:00   How do you do that with a box full of JPEGs?

01:58:02   Do you make a second copy of the photo and crop?

01:58:04   - No, I would do it at the time,

01:58:06   if I cared that much, which I don't,

01:58:08   I would do it at the time that I'm taking them off the device

01:58:11   and putting them on the Synology.

01:58:13   I would do it all then.

01:58:14   - So you discard the original then?

01:58:17   - Yeah.

01:58:17   (laughing)

01:58:18   - This is the worst. - Oh my God.

01:58:20   - Photoshop, Photoshop, Apple Photos saves the original

01:58:23   always so I could always go back to it,

01:58:25   but it also saves all of my edits and crops

01:58:28   and keywords and tagging and face recognition

01:58:31   and all the other things you need to get on this bandwagon

01:58:34   eventually.

01:58:34   - Well, the thing is, I just, I really,

01:58:36   after having been burned by Everpix and Picture Life

01:58:41   and Google Photos, I just do not trust anything in the cloud

01:58:46   as being the one true source of information.

01:58:48   I just don't.

01:58:49   - But no, but you wouldn't.

01:58:50   The one true source will be on your local disks

01:58:52   and your local backups, right?

01:58:54   - I guess.

01:58:55   - It would also be in the cloud

01:58:56   and also be in your cloud backups.

01:58:57   The only difference is it wouldn't be a file system

01:58:59   of hand named, handmade folders and files that you made.

01:59:03   It would just be the Apple thing,

01:59:04   but I assure you in the Apple photo library,

01:59:07   there are eventually a bunch of JPEGs.

01:59:09   - Yeah, but I mean, if I were to go to iCloud photo library,

01:59:14   what I would do is I would still insist

01:59:18   that the source of record is my ridiculously named files

01:59:23   because that works for me.

01:59:24   I like it, it's reliable and it's repeatable.

01:59:27   And again, if Photos would let me put this

01:59:31   on a network share, I would have done this two years ago,

01:59:34   easily, if not more.

01:59:35   But I have such a problem with having to run

01:59:40   like a fifth redundant backup of all this stuff

01:59:46   on a physical drive connected to my iMac

01:59:48   just because Photos won't let me use a (beep)

01:59:50   network drive for my photo library.

01:59:52   Like that's so ridiculous.

01:59:55   Especially for something--

01:59:56   - The network drive thing is a problem,

01:59:58   but I think you should let go

01:59:59   of the carefully named files in folders.

02:00:03   I hear you, I will not be listening to you.

02:00:05   Because again, I want the source of record

02:00:09   to be effectively like plain text files in folders.

02:00:13   I know that's not literally what we're talking about,

02:00:14   but for people who have this note-taking system

02:00:16   where they have this folder structure

02:00:19   where everything is just .txt

02:00:21   and this bespoke folder structure,

02:00:24   I think that's bananas, personally.

02:00:26   I'm all in on Apple Notes for that sort of thing,

02:00:28   but I totally understand why one would be like that.

02:00:33   And so I want something like that,

02:00:37   something that I am 100% in control of.

02:00:41   I want that to be the source of record for my photographs

02:00:44   because they're too important to me

02:00:45   to trust anything else.

02:00:47   I don't want Apple's file names.

02:00:49   I don't want Apple managing them.

02:00:51   I wanna manage where the files are,

02:00:52   where they go, how they get there, et cetera.

02:00:54   It's the same reason,

02:00:56   there are things that I'm very picky about,

02:00:58   like pretty much every photo that winds up

02:01:01   in my photo library and has wound up in my photo library

02:01:03   for the last three, four years,

02:01:06   pretty much every one will have some amount

02:01:09   of geotag information in it.

02:01:11   You know, it might be approximate,

02:01:12   it might not be the exact down to the meter,

02:01:15   latitude, and longitude I was standing at,

02:01:16   but it'll at least get me to the city

02:01:19   in which I took the picture of nothing else.

02:01:22   And I'll try my darnedest to remember,

02:01:24   oh, I think I was standing about there.

02:01:25   That is bananas.

02:01:27   I'll be the first to tell you, it's bananas.

02:01:28   But it is not entirely unusual for me to want to look up

02:01:33   a photo by the location in which I've taken it.

02:01:35   And so because of that,

02:01:37   all my iPhone photos come in with all that caked in

02:01:39   and built in automatically.

02:01:41   But for my big camera,

02:01:42   I will go through with the app geotag,

02:01:44   which is okay, but it gets the job done,

02:01:47   and I will mark where these photos were taken

02:01:50   because that is important to me.

02:01:52   In the same way, it's important to me

02:01:53   that these files are in the exact layout

02:01:56   that I want on the file system

02:01:58   because there is nothing, this is not a challenge,

02:02:02   there's nothing that anyone can do other than me

02:02:06   to ruin what is sitting on the Synology.

02:02:08   Now, I can ruin it by deleting stuff.

02:02:10   I can ruin it by not backing it up appropriately

02:02:12   as we went through like a year ago

02:02:13   when I almost had that happen.

02:02:15   But my photos especially,

02:02:16   I have like literally four or five copies.

02:02:19   And so it would take a serious amount of oopsies to happen

02:02:24   in order for me to lose all my photos.

02:02:26   And that's the way I like it

02:02:27   because I got burned by Everpix,

02:02:28   I got burned by Picture Life,

02:02:30   I got burned by Google Photos.

02:02:31   I don't trust any of these anymore, I just don't.

02:02:34   I mean, after how many times

02:02:36   of me getting screwed by these things, why would,

02:02:38   and that's the other thing,

02:02:40   why would I go to Apple of all people?

02:02:42   Like if Google can't get this right,

02:02:44   why in God's green earth would I trust Apple with this?

02:02:48   Eventually I will do it, I'm telling you I will eventually,

02:02:51   one day on an infinite timescale I will do it.

02:02:53   But I feel like I see a million reasons not to do this

02:02:57   and very few reasons to do it other than aggravation.

02:03:00   - Well there's tons of reasons to do it.

02:03:02   I mean, like it really depends

02:03:03   on how much you wanna do with your photos.

02:03:04   Like do you have a system of faving your photos in any way?

02:03:08   - No. - Like so how do you,

02:03:09   you have so many photos, how do you find the good ones?

02:03:12   - Well, a couple of ways.

02:03:14   First of all, I don't, it's actually,

02:03:17   for all the time I'm spending telling you

02:03:18   how important it is to keep this by date hierarchy

02:03:21   and so on, it is not that often that I go spelunking

02:03:25   into my photo library to get an old photo.

02:03:27   And generally speaking, there are two ways

02:03:29   I can find a photo that I care about.

02:03:31   Number one is if it's something that I think is good

02:03:34   and even, not even necessarily great but good,

02:03:38   I will usually put that in day one.

02:03:40   And so, so I could cruise through day one.

02:03:43   - Don't trust Apple photos but day one is a good place

02:03:45   for your favorite photos. - Yes, actually yes.

02:03:47   I trust day one a lot more than I trust Apple photos.

02:03:49   And I'm sure there's gonna be somebody writing me saying,

02:03:50   oh my god, I lost all my photos in day one.

02:03:52   Very well could be, who knows.

02:03:53   But for me, day one has not yet burned me.

02:03:56   And I guess strictly speaking, Apple hasn't.

02:03:59   But everyone except day one has.

02:04:01   - That's the answer to your question though,

02:04:02   before like why in the world would I trust Apple?

02:04:04   Well, lucky you, the rest of the world,

02:04:06   including me and Margot, have been testing this for you

02:04:08   for years, so it's not a complete unknown.

02:04:10   It's not like this is their new kid on the block

02:04:12   and they're totally untried and untested.

02:04:13   I'm not saying they're perfect.

02:04:14   People have lost stuff with Apple photos.

02:04:15   But I feel like it's the same trade-offs.

02:04:18   If you have a bazillion backups like I do,

02:04:20   you can have a bazillion backups

02:04:21   of your Apple photo library.

02:04:23   It's the same as having a bazillion backups

02:04:25   of your files and folders.

02:04:26   The only difference is, like if you have some fear

02:04:29   that Apple is going to no longer support

02:04:31   the library format and you'll be stuck with this,

02:04:34   you know, whatever it is, .photo library directory

02:04:36   that you can't make heads or tails of,

02:04:38   A, the photos are still up to this point in there

02:04:40   as randomly named, garbage named files,

02:04:43   but they're all there.

02:04:44   But B, I think Apple has shown over the years

02:04:47   they do continue to support this as a major part

02:04:50   of their sort of suite of products

02:04:52   so that I don't see them abandoning anytime soon

02:04:54   and deciding, you know what,

02:04:55   photos aren't a really important part

02:04:56   of the Apple experience and we're not gonna support

02:04:58   this app anymore because you take photos on your phone

02:05:00   and it has to go somewhere.

02:05:01   So I've had the same library from iPhoto days

02:05:04   and I have never had to do anything other than

02:05:06   continue to upgrade Apple operating systems

02:05:09   and buy new Apple devices

02:05:10   and it has brought my library along.

02:05:12   Even when they dropped the ratings,

02:05:13   it made it easy enough for me to change the ratings

02:05:15   into likes.

02:05:17   You know, likes are now florps, timeline goes sideways.

02:05:19   But you know, I haven't lost any data

02:05:21   and I've been able to preserve my metadata.

02:05:23   I feel like that's the main thing,

02:05:25   the benefit you would get is the ability to do things

02:05:28   to your photos, to put sort of work and labor

02:05:31   into the organization of your photos in a richer way

02:05:34   than just putting them into a directory

02:05:35   or copying them into day one, right?

02:05:37   And that includes things like geotagging,

02:05:39   which I assure you, you can also do in photos, right?

02:05:42   Like all these things are,

02:05:44   photos does a superset of what you're doing.

02:05:45   It just totally scrambles your files and directories,

02:05:48   which I know can be upsetting

02:05:49   because that's one of the things

02:05:50   that you've put a lot of labor into,

02:05:51   is the careful organization of your files and folders.

02:05:54   But if and when you're willing to let go of that,

02:05:56   you will get benefits on the other side of it.

02:05:58   And I don't think you'll lose anything

02:06:00   in terms of reliability and data durability.

02:06:04   You will just lose file naming and directory naming.

02:06:08   - Well, and even then,

02:06:09   like if most of your organizational strategy

02:06:11   is just by date, which I have always found

02:06:13   to be the most useful photo organizational strategy,

02:06:16   that's just a shell script away.

02:06:19   'Cause all the original files

02:06:23   that are in that Apple photo library thing,

02:06:25   they all have EXIF data.

02:06:27   And so you can use your precious EXIF tool

02:06:30   to actually very easily automatically rebuild

02:06:33   a date-based directory structure

02:06:37   from that Apple photo library file

02:06:39   if you ever really had to.

02:06:41   And I've also, just something else to point out,

02:06:43   I have tried in the past many

02:06:45   different organizational strategies, different programs,

02:06:48   Aperture, Lightroom, iPhoto,

02:06:51   doing my own folder structure.

02:06:54   I think I have lost more photos to my own incompetence

02:06:58   trying to run my own systems

02:07:00   than I have to Apple photo library by a mile.

02:07:03   Because when you run the system yourself,

02:07:07   you aren't perfect either.

02:07:08   And almost every year, like around Christmas time,

02:07:13   we're trying to make our Christmas photo album

02:07:15   for the previous year to bring and show our parents,

02:07:19   here's what we did last Christmas.

02:07:21   And Tiff and I are scrambling to figure out

02:07:23   where are the pictures from that one camera

02:07:26   from this past, from last year?

02:07:27   I can't find those,

02:07:29   'cause they didn't go through the system.

02:07:31   They had their own system.

02:07:32   And we can't find them, and God knows where they are,

02:07:36   and occasionally we do find them, sometimes we don't.

02:07:39   And your own system is manual,

02:07:43   and just like manual backup plans,

02:07:46   there's a lot of potential for error there,

02:07:49   whereas the automatic built-in method the system has

02:07:54   to keep these things in sync, which again,

02:07:57   look, I'm as much of a skeptic of Apple web services

02:08:00   half the time as you are,

02:08:02   but this one has proven itself to be really solid.

02:08:05   And again, as John said, this is not a new thing.

02:08:09   It's been really solid for,

02:08:11   as far as I can tell, almost everybody for years.

02:08:15   Even when it was new, it was pretty solid,

02:08:17   and it's gotten even more improved since then.

02:08:21   And so ultimately, while I agree with John

02:08:24   that the photos apps are pretty rough in a lot of ways,

02:08:29   like for editing anything, as an organizational tool.

02:08:34   - They have way more features than the Finder.

02:08:35   - That's true.

02:08:36   - Although I will say this,

02:08:39   it's the task that Casey just described,

02:08:41   finding things by date, photos can do that.

02:08:44   But unlike versions of iPhoto,

02:08:46   which had like a one-click way for you to show,

02:08:48   just show me photos from this date,

02:08:50   it's so many more clicks in photos,

02:08:52   whereas Casey can just go to the folder

02:08:54   that's named after that year and find it faster than photos.

02:08:56   But that's only because photos is so excurable

02:08:59   that they refuse to give you like a quick search box

02:09:01   and just let me type a date.

02:09:03   - But that's the thing is that it is non-negotiable to me.

02:09:07   It is non-negotiable that the system of record,

02:09:10   that all of my photos, iPhone, big camera,

02:09:13   Aaron's iPhone, all of them,

02:09:14   the system of record is the Synology.

02:09:16   I will not budge on that.

02:09:18   You can think I'm crazy, I will not budge on that.

02:09:21   So I will never trust photos to just start ingesting things

02:09:24   and assuming that it'll work.

02:09:28   I will still do my process no matter what,

02:09:32   even if I embrace iCloud Photo Library,

02:09:34   it is non-negotiable.

02:09:36   And again, I don't care if the two of you

02:09:37   or anyone listening thinks I'm nuts, that's fine.

02:09:40   I will not budge on this.

02:09:41   And so what I'm saying to you is,

02:09:43   I'm gonna take an app that the both of you

02:09:45   have spent several minutes describing how crappy it is,

02:09:47   I'm gonna take that and I wanna use it

02:09:49   in an extraordinarily non-standard way

02:09:52   where I'm telling it, okay, I would like you to use a,

02:09:56   I want you to use this external file system,

02:09:58   be it on a drive or be it via network share

02:10:01   as where all the files are.

02:10:03   I want you to keep it in that file system.

02:10:05   I don't want you to screw with anything else.

02:10:07   I don't want you to have your own copy,

02:10:09   just keep it all if you're gonna mess with it

02:10:10   and mess with the original.

02:10:11   - No, you can't, I don't think you can even tell it

02:10:14   to do that.

02:10:15   - I thought you could tell it to just leave the files

02:10:17   where they were.

02:10:18   - I don't think so.

02:10:19   - See this again, I don't understand why,

02:10:21   what this is buying me, I don't.

02:10:23   - I mean, what you need to do is revisit

02:10:25   your bedrock assumption of like system of records.

02:10:27   The sound you can be the system of record for your photos

02:10:30   is just that you would have a second copy of it on your Mac

02:10:33   and a third copy of it in iCloud and a fourth copy of it

02:10:36   in Backblaze, right?

02:10:37   It's just a way of looking at things, right?

02:10:39   All the data, I have a complete copy of my photos

02:10:42   on my Synology, right?

02:10:44   In fact, I have two complete copies of my photos

02:10:46   on my Synology.

02:10:47   And if I just declare that that is my system of record,

02:10:51   then success, I've maintained your status quo, right?

02:10:54   Granted, on my Synology, they're in iPhoto Photo Library

02:10:57   bundles, one of them from my Mac and one of them

02:11:00   from my wife's Mac.

02:11:01   - Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope.

02:11:02   - But like, what is the system of record?

02:11:04   How is that not the system of record?

02:11:06   It's the data is there, but it's also,

02:11:09   and not just like some of the data, all the data,

02:11:12   every single one of my photos is on my Mac,

02:11:14   on my wife's Mac, and then on the Synology twice

02:11:17   in the form of time machine backups,

02:11:18   and also in two super duper backups.

02:11:20   - I hear you, but I just, I don't,

02:11:24   all I'm doing then if I am embracing photos

02:11:27   is adding more steps to my process,

02:11:30   because my process will not change.

02:11:31   - Oh, fewer, all you do is you just take pictures

02:11:33   with your phone and you're done, that's one process.

02:11:36   And the second thing is I take pictures

02:11:38   of my big camera and I import them into my photo library

02:11:40   and I'm done.

02:11:41   - No, but I just told you, I'm not negotiating

02:11:43   that the system of record is the Synology.

02:11:44   - But they will go, they will travel from the thing

02:11:47   where you imported them to the Synology to back plays.

02:11:51   - No, no, no, no, the file's named the way I want

02:11:54   in the directory structure I want.

02:11:55   - Oh, you're not gonna be able to keep the file's name

02:11:57   the way you want, that's the only thing you have to give up.

02:11:59   - Then it's a nonstarter.

02:12:00   I don't, again--

02:12:02   - You'll gain so much more, like the ability to--

02:12:04   - What am I gaining?

02:12:05   - Your ability to organize photos into albums

02:12:08   and fave them and be able to set things aside

02:12:10   and do searches based on geography

02:12:12   and do searches based on people's faces

02:12:13   and find the picture of somebody who was in the kitchen

02:12:16   on this particular date and make calendars,

02:12:18   because you have set aside all the pictures you wanted

02:12:20   to include in the calendar for the relatives,

02:12:22   because you had previously gone through and cropped them

02:12:24   and adjust them and put faves on them,

02:12:26   so now they're all ready to go

02:12:27   when you make the calendar at the end of the year.

02:12:28   - Nobody does this except you.

02:12:30   - Yeah, this is solving problems that I don't have.

02:12:33   - Who takes thousands of pictures

02:12:34   and then just allows them to be a sea

02:12:35   of thousands of pictures?

02:12:36   You have to do something with them,

02:12:38   otherwise why are you even taking the pictures?

02:12:40   Why not just take the pictures and throw them in the garbage

02:12:42   if you're never gonna look at them again?

02:12:43   - I do look at them, I just don't look at them

02:12:45   the way you look at yours.

02:12:46   - But you take thousands of pictures, 10 of them are good,

02:12:49   and those are the 10 you put in the calendar.

02:12:51   Like, it's not rocket science.

02:12:52   - I don't want a (bleep) calendar, Jon!

02:12:54   This is not something that I want in my life!

02:12:56   - But you put pictures in frames,

02:12:58   you take all the pictures, you have to find

02:13:00   the ones that are good, right?

02:13:01   Otherwise, why are you taking the pictures?

02:13:03   - Right, and I can do that with my system

02:13:05   in ways that you will not approve of, but I can do it.

02:13:08   - All right, they're on day one, yes, okay.

02:13:10   - No, that's not the only way.

02:13:11   The other way is I shoot the big photos,

02:13:13   the big camera photos in RAW and JPEG.

02:13:16   I shoot everything in RAW and JPEG,

02:13:17   and I only keep the RAWs that are of decent photos.

02:13:20   So I can just look for all the RAWs--

02:13:22   - You throw out the other ones, it's madness!

02:13:23   - I told you you're not gonna like it, but it works!

02:13:26   - Mm-hmm, I'm just saying, I think you're doing

02:13:28   a lot of extra work for no features

02:13:32   that you wouldn't get with iPhoto library,

02:13:34   and there are features in iPhoto

02:13:36   that you don't get with your current system.

02:13:37   Now, there are attributes that you don't get

02:13:39   with iPhoto library, which you say are deal breakers,

02:13:42   but they're not features, they're not like a thing

02:13:44   you can do in one case and you can't do in the other.

02:13:45   They're just attributes, as in,

02:13:47   I have folders and files that are named.

02:13:49   You're right, that attribute will go away, right?

02:13:51   But what does that attribute give you?

02:13:52   No actual features, no actual benefits,

02:13:54   like, well, now I can search by date,

02:13:56   but you can do that in Photos too.

02:13:57   - Well, the other thing is that I have all of my

02:14:01   iPhone photos going to Google Photos, still to this day,

02:14:06   and I don't trust Google Photos anymore

02:14:08   with my big camera photos, but all of my,

02:14:13   and actually, I wouldn't get errands either,

02:14:14   but it will get my phones.

02:14:16   Google Photos, to this day, gets my phone,

02:14:18   and it has, up until a year or two ago

02:14:21   when I abandoned the piece of garbage Google Photos uploader,

02:14:25   it had everything, it had my photos, her photos,

02:14:28   big camera photos, had everything,

02:14:29   up until a year or two ago.

02:14:30   And so if I wanted to search for a person

02:14:33   or search for geography or something like that,

02:14:36   I would turn to Google Photos and I would do it there,

02:14:38   and that would almost, almost certainly it would get me there

02:14:41   The only way it wouldn't is if it was something

02:14:44   that happened in the last year or two,

02:14:46   and the only way I documented it was the big camera,

02:14:48   which I can't remember a time that I didn't snap

02:14:51   at least one photo with my iPhone at an event

02:14:54   where I was using the big camera predominantly.

02:14:56   So even if you're insistent that having some sort

02:15:01   of photo management app is the panacea

02:15:03   that will solve all the problems

02:15:04   that I don't actually think I have,

02:15:06   then I have Google Photos, leave me alone.

02:15:08   - Like, a photo app is another way

02:15:11   for you to organize your photos.

02:15:12   Your current way you organize your photos

02:15:14   is you put your good ones in day one

02:15:15   and you put the rest in date-oriented files and folders.

02:15:18   And those are two ways to organize,

02:15:20   but there are many more ways to organize.

02:15:21   And your approach to edits, where if you make edits,

02:15:24   you'll do it on import and then throw away the original,

02:15:26   is also maddening because the idea

02:15:28   that you will never change your mind about edits

02:15:30   or want to later edit another picture, like whatever.

02:15:33   It's just, that's a weird system.

02:15:34   But anyway, if you ever want to do anything

02:15:38   with your photos, having them in an app lets you slice

02:15:42   and dice those photos much more easily

02:15:44   than dealing with the Finder.

02:15:47   The Finder is a worse photos app than the Photos app.

02:15:50   I think we can safely say that.

02:15:51   For all my annoyances of the Photos app,

02:15:52   it is a better photos app for organizing,

02:15:56   for finding, for editing, you name it.

02:15:58   So those are the benefits I think you'd be getting

02:16:00   by using the photo library.

02:16:01   It's not so much the iCloud photo library part,

02:16:03   it's the fact that now you have a giant bucket

02:16:07   where you can do work to organize your photos

02:16:10   in different ways and have that work preserved

02:16:14   across everything, all your devices, all your Apple things,

02:16:16   the whole nine yards across the cloud, everything.

02:16:19   - So the only way that I feel like I'm missing out

02:16:22   on something that Photos would provide

02:16:24   is that when I was all in on Google Photos,

02:16:26   which again, screwed me like everything else has,

02:16:29   when I was all in on Google Photos,

02:16:31   I did create albums for bigger events

02:16:33   like vacations and things like that.

02:16:34   And it was nice to be able to just hop over to an album

02:16:37   and be able to show pictures,

02:16:39   or at least narrow down pictures from a particular vacation.

02:16:42   I absolutely 100% confess that I do miss out on that

02:16:46   to some degree.

02:16:48   But with that said, what date this event happened,

02:16:51   I can jump right to the photos.

02:16:53   Now granted, admittedly, I will be jumping

02:16:54   to a much larger pile of photos than I would probably want

02:16:58   for this hypothetical where I'm sharing a photo

02:17:01   with somebody, or even just an abridged version

02:17:04   of our vacation with somebody.

02:17:06   But I could still do it, and alternatively,

02:17:08   especially in the last couple of years,

02:17:09   I've gotten really devout about day one,

02:17:11   and I would just look for the tag in day one

02:17:13   that is Declan Smith's birthday Disney World trip.

02:17:16   And then that's the best photos that we took from that trip.

02:17:19   You don't have to like it, John.

02:17:21   There are many different, there are many of them,

02:17:23   there are many like it, but this one is mine.

02:17:24   I butchered my own quote.

02:17:26   This is the system that works for me,

02:17:29   and it's not often that I think to myself, ah, crap.

02:17:33   I really wish I had a photo album that I could just show

02:17:37   John of this vacation that we took.

02:17:39   You're fixing problems that I really don't feel like I have.

02:17:43   And who knows, maybe tomorrow I'll set up

02:17:45   iCloud Photo Library and say, holy crap, you were right,

02:17:47   I can't believe I waited this long.

02:17:49   But for me, I've solved all of the problems

02:17:54   that I have had by either writing a bespoke Swift app

02:17:59   to name and place these files, which I've done.

02:18:02   I've solved it by finding an app that works on macOS

02:18:04   to add geotags, which I've found.

02:18:07   Maybe one day I'll write my own, but at least for now

02:18:09   I've found something that'll do it for me,

02:18:11   or assist me in doing it.

02:18:13   I mean, I have reminders that fire once a month,

02:18:18   at different stages of the month, to remind me

02:18:20   to pull pictures off of Aaron's phone,

02:18:22   and then pull pictures off of my phone.

02:18:24   I mean, I'm not saying that it is

02:18:26   a completely foolproof system.

02:18:28   I'm not saying that it can't be improved.

02:18:31   But I'm saying that all of the things

02:18:33   that really were pain points for me, I feel like I fixed.

02:18:38   It doesn't mean it can't get better.

02:18:39   But anything that was actively painful, I fixed.

02:18:42   And why would I screw with something

02:18:45   that seems to be working?

02:18:46   - Well, on this very show, I think you described it

02:18:48   as Byzantine and complicated, or something to that effect.

02:18:50   So that's really-- - It is.

02:18:51   - The benefit I was hoping to get for you is,

02:18:54   you can simplify your life by not having to worry

02:18:56   about all that stuff you just described,

02:18:57   and just having-- - Agreed.

02:18:58   - Doing what everyone else does,

02:18:59   but just take pictures with your phone,

02:19:00   and then there is no step two.

02:19:02   - Agreed, but that's if I'm willing to give up

02:19:05   the one thing I'm telling you is table stakes,

02:19:06   which is I want these files where and how I want them.

02:19:10   I will not give that up.

02:19:11   - You should work on giving that up.

02:19:13   (laughing)

02:19:14   - I will take it under advisement.

02:19:16   I will take it under advisement,

02:19:17   but it's not gonna happen.

02:19:19   'Cause I've been burned too many times.

02:19:21   - You should try an experiment.

02:19:23   Leave your photos where they are,

02:19:24   and start a new empty iPhoto library,

02:19:27   and try it for a month or something.

02:19:28   Because if you don't like it,

02:19:29   then you can just export all those photos,

02:19:31   and then run your Swift thing on them,

02:19:32   and then shove them into the Synology.

02:19:34   You know what I mean?

02:19:35   - Yeah, but again--

02:19:37   - Not this year, next year.

02:19:38   We're gonna work on this for maybe next year.

02:19:40   - All right, maybe next year.

02:19:41   - Okay, Mark, go to swim in the ocean.

02:19:42   We'll get you to try briefly the iCloud photo library lifestyle.

02:19:47   And then you can report back on the show,

02:19:49   and say how much you hated it.

02:19:51   - I don't know, I think I use photos now.

02:19:53   Part of my process was to use image capture

02:19:55   to pull all these off my phone, or Aaron's phone.

02:19:58   And actually, since Heek and Heef and HEVC,

02:20:02   and whatever they're all called, became a thing,

02:20:04   image capture will cause the phone to convert to JPEG.

02:20:08   And if you use photos, you can export the originals.

02:20:12   You can export the HEICs, whatever they are, HEVCs.

02:20:15   I don't even care.

02:20:17   It's late and I'm tired.

02:20:18   I should have the lights on.

02:20:18   It would have woken me up, Mark.

02:20:20   But anyways, so what I do every, well, twice a month,

02:20:24   is I will find the place where I put

02:20:27   my temporary photos library, delete it,

02:20:30   and then I will start photos, and it'll say, holy crap,

02:20:32   there is no photos library.

02:20:33   Where would you want me to make this?

02:20:34   And I will put it in basically the same spot.

02:20:36   And it'll be called KC mid-October, whatever.

02:20:39   And I'll do an import from my phone.

02:20:41   I will then immediately export it all

02:20:44   to a folder on my desktop.

02:20:46   And then I will run my little Swift app

02:20:48   to move them all to the Synology.

02:20:51   And then I delete the photos library

02:20:53   I just created an hour earlier.

02:20:54   The system is flawless.

02:20:55   I take it all back.

02:20:56   Yep, told you.

02:20:57   [LAUGHTER]

02:20:59   [BEEPING]