400: Reach Is the Next Frontier


00:00:00   This is a historic event, an episode today, because we are recording episode 400 of your

00:00:07   Accidental Tech podcast. But that's not even what's the most impressive thing about this episode.

00:00:13   I'm sure there was another time, but to the best of my recollection, I cannot recall a time that I

00:00:20   have looked at the show notes and it says "follow hyphen up colon" and then there's a bullet and

00:00:28   nothing else. How many times do we have to go over this chat room? Would you like to inform Casey

00:00:32   whether or not we have follow-up on episodes where there are Apple events? I knew, does anyone in the

00:00:36   chat room know? No, but oh no no no, I know how the rules work. I know, I understand. Do you though?

00:00:41   Do you? Because every time we have one of these episodes you're like "oh my god we're not gonna have

00:00:45   follow-up, I can't handle it!" No, because usually you, you have, well somebody probably you, has a

00:00:50   list of follow-up items that we choose to ignore. Is there any doubt that it's John? You said

00:00:55   probably you? Like it's not me! Well somebody deleted them all and that wasn't me, so. Well

00:01:01   I deleted all the ones that we'd already done, or at least that's what I thought I did. Yeah,

00:01:04   that's what you thought you did. Now we get, come to it. All right, so the revelation that Casey has

00:01:08   at the start of this program is, look, if before the show starts I delete all the follow-up, we have

00:01:12   empty follow-ups. Wait, that's the secret? I could have done this for 399 episodes? That's all it

00:01:19   takes? Google Docs never forgets, I'm gonna bring up the history pain later and pull it out, but

00:01:23   it's not relevant to this episode because it's an Apple event episode. Isn't follow-up always

00:01:27   something we've already done, by definition? Don't get confused here, Marco. Have we done the follow-up?

00:01:34   It's meta follow-up. Oh my god. I would like to complain right up front so I can be happy for the

00:01:42   rest of the episode. Can we do that? Is that okay? You can complain even faster thanks to Verizon's

00:01:47   new 5G broadband ultra-wide brand network. Marco, it's like we planned it. What a flawlessly executed

00:01:54   perfect segue. Oh my god, what was going on with that Verizon tie-in? Oh my god. So I know you two

00:02:04   are upset about it. Can you explain to me why though, other than just saying, oh, Verizon, like,

00:02:09   expound on that. Elaborate. Why is it upsetting that Apple would talk about Verizon? I think it was

00:02:15   just not very classy, which is a very like snobby thing of me to say, and I recognize that, but

00:02:21   my perception, why is it snobby? Why is it not classy? Because they're shilling for another

00:02:27   company. Another company that's only relevant to America, which I am the king of forgetting that

00:02:32   there are other countries in the world, but even I know. I was like, US-centric-ness doesn't seem

00:02:37   like something you're averse to. Right, exactly. I agree with you. So they're shilling for another

00:02:41   company. Do you think that Verizon paid them to do it and they're keeping it a secret? I don't think

00:02:48   it's that simple. So my best guess is that this is part of a much bigger co-marketing deal between

00:02:56   the two companies, because the thing is, like, what a lot of people outside of the US don't realize

00:03:01   is quite how much power over what phones get sold the Verizon stores in the US have. Like,

00:03:10   I know so many people, usually not nerds. Most nerds switched to AT&T to get the iPhone before

00:03:16   it was on Verizon. So the nerds are on their own. They do what they want. They go to whatever care

00:03:21   they need to to get whatever phone they want. But for all the non-nerds out there, I know so many

00:03:27   non-nerds, and especially family members and stuff like that who don't follow tech with any kind of

00:03:32   enthusiasm, where the way they get a new phone is every few years, they go to a Verizon store,

00:03:40   and they get whatever they can get a good deal on. Is that still true today, though? I don't know if

00:03:45   that's true. Yes, it still is true today. And so what I think has happened here is I think Apple

00:03:52   recognized that a big chunk of their US sales could go up if they had a really good deal with

00:03:58   Verizon. Because one of the ways that Android took off in the US early on, and one of the ways

00:04:03   it's still pretty important, is that carriers always were really good with having deals between

00:04:11   the carrier and an Android handset maker, usually Samsung. This is one of the reasons why Samsung

00:04:16   really has such a dominant market share. Because Samsung plays the sales game really well with the

00:04:21   retail channel. Because they would have things like give bonuses to the sales people who sold

00:04:27   the most Samsung cell phones in the carrier stores. There's all sorts of deals like that,

00:04:32   like marketing deals and commission deals. And it's all a little bit skeezy, but that's how it

00:04:38   works. So the reality is the carriers have a large say on what phones are pushed on people and what

00:04:45   phones people actually buy, because they can control things like price incentives. One of the

00:04:49   biggest ways Android got big early on was these buy one phone, get one free kind of things the

00:04:54   carriers would do. There's all sorts of stuff like that. And so my theory here is that in order to

00:05:00   improve US market share, and to kind of put a bigger debt in Android here than usual, I think

00:05:06   Apple and Verizon made some kind of deal where Verizon is going to be pushing the phones even

00:05:10   more heavily. And they already have a special price thing, which we'll get to later. Although

00:05:15   AT&T matched that as well, you know, for however that works out. But I'm guessing this is part of

00:05:20   a much bigger thing. Like I don't think there were some like flat fee that Verizon paid Apple to be

00:05:26   part of this event. That's too simple. And frankly, that wouldn't be enough money to matter to either

00:05:31   company. I think it's much more likely that this is about like a deal that's going to be like over

00:05:38   the whole next year, Verizon is going to extra hard push the iPhone onto their customers,

00:05:45   because that is worth a lot to Apple. And clearly, Verizon must be giving Apple something that's

00:05:51   worth a lot to them. Because this is... Yeah, that's well put actually. No, I'm glad you said

00:05:57   it that way. That's really well put because I your theory is the best theory I've heard so far, other

00:06:02   than just money changing hands. But yeah, it definitely seems like Apple was willing to make

00:06:07   a trade for something and something big in something big. Exactly. And I don't know what

00:06:13   that is in your theory, like I said, is the best I've heard. But it just felt weird. I don't mean

00:06:18   to cut you off. And I do want to go back to John's question in a second. But what else did you have

00:06:22   to say about that, Marco? Well, I mean, I have a lot to say about 5G as a whole, which we'll get to

00:06:26   later. But yeah, just it just felt really gross. I'm with you on that. Like, it seemed and I tweeted

00:06:34   to this effect, like it seems like it's beneath Apple. It seems kind of like a like a cheap move,

00:06:40   almost like a sellout move. But it's like, why does Apple need to sell out to anyone? And it just

00:06:46   it seemed like this was a Verizon commercial that happened to also have some new iPhones in it.

00:06:51   Yeah, I agree. And to come back to John's question, like, why was it gross? Why was it

00:06:56   not classy? So it is, it would not have been terribly surprising to me to have Apple say,

00:07:03   Oh, and you know, this 5G works really well with Verizon. And it would have been only slightly

00:07:07   surprising to me to say, oh, and here's their CEO and he's going to talk for too long. And like,

00:07:14   that still would have been weird, but OK, that's fine, I guess. But when it got really gross and

00:07:22   really weird to me was the forced repeated mentions. And I can't say a specific example

00:07:28   offhand, but like, oh, it's going to be so easy to play whatever this Fortnite clone is.

00:07:32   Yeah, it'll be so easy to play whatever whatever game on your new Verizon 5G iPhone. And it's just

00:07:38   like, what? No, no, stop it with that. It's not Apple. Apple supposed to be the classy one that

00:07:45   doesn't put this stupid like AT&T or singular logo on the phone. They're supposed to be the good

00:07:50   ones. And this just feels icky. Like I just it really, really felt gross to me. So John, am I

00:07:56   bananas or do you agree? I mean, I'm not sure if you're aware, but the iPhone doesn't work

00:08:02   without a cell network. So an Apple doesn't have one of those. They were thinking of doing one.

00:08:06   They were thinking of being one of those MVNO, whatever things, but they didn't. So you kind of

00:08:11   need a cell service plan unless you just want to use it as a really expensive iPod touch. Like,

00:08:17   I don't you know, I'm not super interested in hearing the Verizon CEO like, but there are

00:08:22   always boring parts of a keynote. Right. But I don't think it was classless or gross that the

00:08:28   fact that Apple makes deals with carriers to promote their phones. They always have,

00:08:33   they always will. And they should. The only place where I would get concerned about it is if it

00:08:38   starts to affect the products they sell. And there's a slippery slope argument to say, well,

00:08:43   they have this starts with this. And the next thing you know, it's filled with the Verizon

00:08:45   crapware. Well, you know, if that happens, then I'll be mad about that. But I'm not mad or

00:08:51   disgusted by the fact that Apple is selling a phone that one of the important new features of

00:08:55   which is hey, it's capable of 5g and then has carrier partners say 5g guess what that's pointless

00:09:01   without a 5g network and we have one of those and we had a partnership. I mean, we've all seen like

00:09:05   I'm very often fooled over the past several years by an ad that I think is an Apple ad,

00:09:08   but it doesn't quite look right. And I realized it's actually an AT&T ad. Right. I mean, there's

00:09:13   there is a, you know, symbiotic relationship between the carriers and the phone makers.

00:09:18   And yes, the phone makers compete for the for the love and favor of the carrier,

00:09:21   all the stuff that Marco described, right. But as long as that doesn't affect the product that

00:09:27   Apple's selling, and so far, it hasn't with the possible exception of Apple putting that 5g in

00:09:31   a little status bar, but you know, it's one letter, it's not a big deal. But other than that,

00:09:36   there's not crapware filling my phone, I don't have to, I no longer have to enter a two year

00:09:41   contract to get a reasonable deal on the phone phones are all unlocked from Apple, right. So

00:09:45   things are going in the opposite direction of gross, I don't find

00:09:49   Verizon and the 5g and the pushing of 5g and the pushing of Verizon to be gross at all,

00:09:55   I would be sad if I was AT&T that I wasn't in the keynote and didn't get my thing promoted like that

00:09:59   or Sprint or T mobile and we'll get to the price differences there too. But that's just how you

00:10:05   know how this market works. There are carriers and there are phone makers. And this is the relationship

00:10:10   between them. And I don't I don't like, I don't see a class distinction. Like I don't carriers,

00:10:15   not my favorite companies in the world either. And there should, you know, we should have more

00:10:18   competition in the US than we do. But it's not like I hate Verizon so much that I can't

00:10:23   bear to see Apple mentioned its name on stage when they're introducing their 5g phone. So I mean,

00:10:28   I guess you know, whatever, if it bothers you, it bothers you, it didn't bother me personally.

00:10:31   And until and unless something changes in the product experience that I think is sort of

00:10:37   impinging on and this, you know, there is an argument made here that the whole

00:10:42   services revenue push and Apple's willingness to potentially compromise the user experience in

00:10:50   favor of their own revenue could eventually leave to that again, that's there is a slippery slope

00:10:54   argument there that you might be able to get some traction on based on the accumulation of recent

00:10:58   evidence. But for this particular phone, with the possible exception of the $30 that we'll get to a

00:11:03   little bit later, I don't think it's that big of a deal. Unfortunately, in the US, for the carriers,

00:11:07   there's definitely a tiered system, there's the big ones. And then there's the also rands and the

00:11:11   also rands at various times have done ridiculous things to get any kind of traction. And at other

00:11:17   times have kind of gotten screwed over by the big carriers, which is like it's happening this time

00:11:22   around. But I don't, you know, I don't know, I didn't find it gross or classless. I just found

00:11:27   it boring, kind of like the game demos. And again, I think the the repetition is where it went from

00:11:32   boring and annoying to genuinely distasteful to me, when it's when it's part of like, you know,

00:11:39   the the original iPhone announcement with AT&T on stage, that's one thing. And if they would have

00:11:43   done something like that, where like, there was a segment where the Verizon person came out, which,

00:11:47   you know, like, if that's all it was, and then there wasn't any other mention of Verizon anywhere

00:11:52   else, that would be one thing. But what made it feel weird was that it leaked out, like it leaked

00:11:57   out of its little segment, and it was spread throughout the whole presentation. And so it was

00:12:02   kind of like having a Verizon logo stuck on the phone. Like it kind of had that feel of like,

00:12:08   this is a commercial for Verizon and Apple, not like having the logo on the phone.

00:12:13   If you don't see the keynote, you don't hear any of this stuff. It doesn't affect the product,

00:12:17   it affect the presentation. You can say I didn't I didn't like that Verizon wasn't corralled to

00:12:21   its segment. They got mentioned elsewhere. But all right, fine. It's like it's the presentation

00:12:25   equivalent of having having a Verizon logo on the phone. I like like because it was it bled out from

00:12:30   its borders. They must have some kind of deal with Verizon for this thing. And that's part of the deal

00:12:35   is they get more mentions in the keynote. It's not the end of the world. Like, what did it do to you?

00:12:39   There were multiple elements here that felt gross. It was the fact that Verizon was mentioned outside

00:12:43   of their little slot at all, plus the little pricing trick they're pulling, plus the fact

00:12:49   that it kind of sold 5g benefits as Verizon only benefits in some of its implications and wording.

00:12:55   I mean, I still don't quite understand why that's gross. That sounds like advertising.

00:13:00   And yes, there was obviously a partnership deal that happens all the time. What about all those

00:13:04   times back in the good old days when Epic would be on stage showing us some knight in armor swiping

00:13:08   at a dragon 20 times? He's trying to say that the only games you can buy for this phone are from

00:13:12   Epic. They made me sound like all gaming is this epic game. Like, it's it's an advertising part.

00:13:17   Anyway, what I would expect it from Verizon ad, it makes sense for a Verizon ad to try to sell 5g

00:13:21   benefits as Verizon benefits. It doesn't make sense for an Apple ad to try to sell 5g benefits

00:13:27   as Verizon benefits. But that's the partnership you're just talking about the money changed hands,

00:13:31   I'm sure. Like, it's not like that Apple's doing this out of the goodness of their heart,

00:13:34   right? There's some kind of deal. But that's that's the business they're in.

00:13:38   Well, it really chapped my bottom, which is why I wanted to get it off my chest because the rest of

00:13:42   the presentation and the stuff that was said, I thought was really, really good. And as per

00:13:46   tradition, I'm going to try to go in timeline order, and then we will get about two sentences

00:13:50   in and we will abandon ship. We started with the HomePod mini, which I don't have any HomePods in

00:13:57   the house. I am too cheap to buy a big HomePod. This one, the price of $99. That was surprising

00:14:07   to me. And it seems like it's a decent product. I still don't think I have a place in my life for it

00:14:12   because we have a couple of Amazon tubes. And that seems to work just fine for us. And yes, I'm aware

00:14:18   of privacy implications and so on and so forth. I'm not interested in having that conversation

00:14:21   right now. But HomePod mini looked good. And in direct contrast to me, whining and moaning about

00:14:27   the Verizon 5G that appears everywhere, I thought the set for the HomePod mini demonstration was

00:14:36   super cool. And I liked the way they went into, what was his name was Bob, I think they went from

00:14:41   Tim into the shrunken room. Of course, it's obviously full size, but they made it look like

00:14:47   the room was shrunken to show the HomePod mini and all that. I thought this was very well done.

00:14:52   And I really thought they handled the introduction well, even though I'm not entirely sure that

00:14:58   product is for me. I think it all depends on how this thing sounds like they'll show you all the

00:15:02   little thing and the speakers and so on and so forth. But the market that it's competing in

00:15:06   has little tiny things that you talk to that are also speakers that are way cheaper than $99.

00:15:13   Right. And so it I think, you know, the $350 HomePod had to justify its price somehow and

00:15:19   kind of fail to do that. The $99 one also has to justify its price. Because you can get a little

00:15:25   thing to talk to for way less money. So this better what benefit does this have that one of

00:15:28   those little Alexa, I'm sorry, everybody, one of those little Amazon Echo puck things has that,

00:15:35   you know, the advantage they sold was, well, this sounds better. It probably does sound better,

00:15:41   more or less pucks, because those pucks sound awful, right? But does it sound, you know,

00:15:46   80 bucks better or whatever, whatever the price differences? That's the question. And yet the

00:15:50   other thing is, as far as I can tell, this HomePod mini has exactly the same feature set as the big

00:16:00   HomePod plus or minus the software update that's coming in coming soon for the big HomePod to make

00:16:06   it have all the features they described here. So they kind of introduce this little product,

00:16:09   which is a cheaper, smaller HomePod. At the same time, they told you about a bunch of software

00:16:13   updates that are coming to all HomePods, but they sold them as features of just the mini because

00:16:16   they're not on the big one quite yet. Right. So we can talk about software features in a little bit.

00:16:21   But in general, there's feature parity between the two of them. The thing that worries me about

00:16:26   this mini, and one of the things I talked about is that has an S5 chip in it, which is, you know,

00:16:31   the watch chip, which is, it's a fairly fast, you know, it's not, there's no slouch, what did I

00:16:37   forget which cord is like the A10 course in the S5. I forget. You know, so it's got CPU power,

00:16:43   but like the complaint, one of the complaints about the whole HomePod line is it's not too

00:16:50   quick. And I mean that in both the time and sort of, you know, smarts, right. It takes a while to

00:16:57   answer me. And sometimes the answer is not satisfactory. And an S5 does not give me much

00:17:05   confidence that this mini is going to improve on the responsiveness of its bigger brethren. Right.

00:17:12   You know, I understand cost controls and you don't want to use a big expensive chip and so on and so

00:17:16   forth. And what honestly, why should you need a big expensive, like, why do I need a HomePod

00:17:22   on the A14? Isn't that massive overkill? Yes, that absolutely should, is massive overkill, but

00:17:26   I'm still faced with the issue that my 300 and something dollar giant HomePod does not answer me

00:17:33   correctly or quickly a lot of the time. I just ask it to turn the lights on most of the time.

00:17:38   And, you know, I give it a couple of seconds and then I go over and ask my other puck to do it.

00:17:43   I have three, three, the Google one, the Amazon one and the Apple one, and they can all do this

00:17:47   job. And for whatever reason, I always give the Apple one first shot, mostly because it can hear

00:17:51   me from really far away. But sometimes it's like, wait a moment or your lights aren't responding,

00:17:57   or it's like, just. And so now there's this little one that's cheaper, certainly not any faster.

00:18:03   And if the benefit was, you know, that big expensive one that you love,

00:18:07   now you can have that experience all over your house for only $99. I'd be like, yay.

00:18:11   But that's what they're promoting to me is, you know, that mediocre experience you have with

00:18:15   your $350 one, now you can have that same mediocre experience for $99. And that's not attractive to

00:18:21   me. And none of the hardware features that they showed made me think that this little one is going

00:18:27   to improve in any of the areas that my big one is currently failing. I've used HomePods for about as

00:18:34   long as you have, or the same and I really love them as speakers. They are really amazing speakers.

00:18:42   It is very hard to find anything anywhere near that price range that sounds as good.

00:18:47   The microphones in them, as you said, are the best, like compared to every other voice thing

00:18:53   I've ever tried. The HomePod hears me better from further away and with more ambient noise.

00:19:00   Like it's especially clear like in kitchens, where I have found the Amazon Echo family of products

00:19:05   has a really hard time hearing me when there's any kind of white noise source, like a kitchen

00:19:10   vent fan going or like water running or something like it. White noise seems to really hurt the

00:19:15   ability for echoes to hear me. Whereas HomePods, you can basically whisper from across the room

00:19:22   with the oven fan going and it's fine. Like it'll still pick you up just fine. But it's slower every

00:19:28   single time. Like in good conditions and in bad conditions, the HomePod is just too slow to

00:19:35   respond. And then when it does respond, as you said, it is often less intelligent of a response

00:19:41   and it frequently will mishear you. It'll think you hailed it and it'll go from across the room

00:19:49   when you weren't talking to it. Or it'll start talking back to you when you weren't talking to it.

00:19:54   And what they showed with the HomePod Mini might be impressive, but anybody who has tried a HomePod

00:20:02   before or owns a HomePod, or who has even read reviews of the HomePod to hear all these problems

00:20:07   with them, they didn't really answer whether any of those things are fixed. Because the HomePod is

00:20:13   already by far the best sounding smart speaker. And by far the best hearing smart speaker.

00:20:22   Not even close to other ones. Like I have old echoes, new echoes. I currently have a pair of

00:20:29   the Sonos One things that is supposed to be competitive with HomePods with audio quality.

00:20:34   And it's totally not. HomePods are way better. These things all allegedly are as smart or as

00:20:40   good sounding. It's not even close. The Alexa ecosystem is way smarter and way faster and way

00:20:47   more consistent to respond to voice commands. And the Siri ecosystem sounds way better and hears you

00:20:53   way better, but is way stupider and slower and less consistent with the responses. And so during this

00:20:59   entire presentation of the HomePod Mini, I kept thinking like, I don't really want to believe.

00:21:05   They're selling this wonderful situation here, but we all know that Siri is still Siri. It's hard to

00:21:12   tell if they know that. It's hard to tell the way they sell Siri kind of makes it seem like they

00:21:20   don't know how mediocre it is. And I'm sure this is just PR and everything. I hope this is just PR.

00:21:24   But do they really not know? Do any of the higher ups at Apple use an Amazon Echo? I'm guessing the

00:21:31   answer is no. And I think that should change. I would call upon whoever leads the HomePod project

00:21:39   and then every person above them in the chain of command should spend a few months with an

00:21:46   Amazon Echo in their house and using that as their primary like, you know, kitchen cooking thing.

00:21:51   And all that mean their Apple executives, I don't know if they have time to cook, but if somebody in

00:21:55   their house does like somehow like get them to use these devices because it seems like they are often

00:22:05   their own little world, you know, little like Apple, you know, white world, I guess, where like,

00:22:12   they think their stuff works the best because in some areas of the company, that's true.

00:22:16   And even for the HomePod, it does sound the best and it does hear you the best. So it is the best

00:22:23   in certain areas. But I don't it doesn't seem like they realize how mediocre and inconsistent Siri is

00:22:32   compared to its competitors. And until they can fix that, no hardware is going to save this product

00:22:40   line. Now that being said, looking at the HomePod mini, like just on specs alone, seeing like,

00:22:45   the type of speaker drivers it has, how they are arranged, and you know, the design of them and

00:22:51   comparing that to the performance of the big HomePod, this thing for 100 bucks is probably

00:22:57   going to be very competitive against the, I guess, it's like the newest Echo, which is now a ball,

00:23:05   but it's not the little ball, that's the new Echo Dot. Now it's a big ball. Price wise, this is the

00:23:11   same price as the big ball, the little ball is 60 bucks, the big ball is 100. The various small

00:23:16   echoes fluctuate between like 30 and $60, depending on you know, various specials and things. But

00:23:21   if they're competing against those with quality and everything, they're gonna lose because they're

00:23:27   so much cheaper. I'm guessing they're trying to compete with the mid sized Echo family,

00:23:32   not even the Echo Studio, which is the more HomePod looking one, which is, I think $200 or

00:23:40   oh it's yeah, $200. If they compete well against the mid sized Echo, then they're going to be

00:23:46   priced exactly like it and that'll be great. And then people will compare it only on Siri,

00:23:50   where they will lose. But if you if they compare it on audio quality, they'll probably win.

00:23:54   I hope that the HomePod as a product line continues to grow and get actually competitive.

00:24:01   When the first one came out, the price was just ridiculous for what it was. Again, not for sound

00:24:07   quality, but for being a smart speaker. It was a, you know, it was way out of the market. And this

00:24:13   new one, this is this is a decent price 100 bucks. That's a good price. If it's a good product, if

00:24:20   it's if it's anywhere near as good as the big one was. By the way, I say this is past tense. I don't

00:24:26   know if they're ever gonna update the big one again. I kind of hope that any benefits that come

00:24:30   down the road I hope they do and I hope if the speed of the local processor is indeed a pretty

00:24:36   significant limiting factor in the responsiveness of the device. They need to upgrade that. But

00:24:41   honestly, I bet it isn't. I bet this is mostly a Siri problem like a cloud a cloud service problem

00:24:48   of you know why it's so much slower and why it's less consistent and why it's stupider.

00:24:53   I don't think the CPU on the device is likely to be a major factor there. But anyway, this

00:24:58   presentation looked really great. But it didn't answer the key questions that we all have. Will

00:25:03   this actually be better than the original HomePod at the at Siri? Will it have fewer false halings?

00:25:11   You know, it is has really gotten better like in the presentation, they get this whole thing about

00:25:16   how great Siri is. But if you paid careful attention to the wording, they didn't they

00:25:21   didn't actually announce any changes to Siri overall, like today, you know, like it was all

00:25:27   like over the last three years, you've been getting getting better all the time. They did announce a

00:25:32   couple new features the what's my update, I thought was cool. The intercom could be cool. But none of

00:25:38   it was like, the Siri service itself is better or the Siri service itself is faster. Like, it was

00:25:44   just like, we're always making it better. So it this might be great. It might be a game changer in

00:25:50   some way. But I'm guessing it won't be I'm guessing we still have to wait for Siri to get better. And

00:25:56   it seems like we're just waiting forever for that. There's one hardware thing that touted this was the

00:26:01   U1. So you can hand off to hand off the audio to the thing because it knows where you are, because

00:26:06   you got a phone with a U1 and things got a U1. So that's would be a cool experience if it worked

00:26:10   well. That's actually a use case that I find a barrier in all of my various smart speakers is

00:26:15   if I'm listening something to something on my phone, so I'm listening on my phone,

00:26:19   on my AirPods, my phone is just sitting somewhere, and I want it to suddenly come out over the

00:26:23   speakers. I really have to think to make that happen. Whatever device can use whether I want

00:26:28   it to happen on the HomePod or like, okay, well, I can go into the little pull down thing and pick

00:26:32   it and send the output there. Right. Or if I wanted to go on something else, I can select that as an

00:26:37   app. But like, I would like to be able to just speak into the air and say, please take over

00:26:42   playing the audio that's currently playing on my phone. And the U1 handoff thing sort of promises

00:26:46   that experience if it actually works. And maybe getting to your point of like, what, what's the

00:26:51   why is Siri not quick? Right? It's not quick in terms of wits based on, you know, the Siri

00:26:58   service being stupid and answering the wrong question. But it's not. Oh, there it is.

00:27:04   It's not quick based on response time, probably because of the server. But handoff should happen

00:27:14   all locally. So the server shouldn't be a factor. So if they can get that working, maybe that works

00:27:19   a little better. But anyway, that's, that's one small hardware, hardware innovation, the intercom

00:27:22   thing. Like this, this is where it kind of bothers me that, that the HomePod in general, like it

00:27:31   doesn't have like a UI, obviously on it, it doesn't have much of a UI, it's got like a touch buttons

00:27:35   and everything like that. But sort of how features like intercom make me wish there was like some big

00:27:41   control panel, not just a setting screen somewhere buried in one of my iOS devices, but like a place

00:27:45   that you could go a screen that you could pull up that's like this is the control panel slash

00:27:49   dashboard for your HomePod. And features like intercom you can personalize say, should this

00:27:55   interrupt my wife's AirPods when she's cooking when I intercom to everybody? Or should it only

00:27:59   interrupt the kids right and like during what times and like just all those little picky

00:28:04   features like that, that for a new feature like this from Apple, the the settings for it are

00:28:10   probably going to be fairly thin. And I just don't feel like there's a place to go to deal with

00:28:15   all the HomePod stuff. I did like that Apple is trying to push the idea of the HomePods as

00:28:22   as HomeKit hubs, because that is an important function they serve because they're on all the

00:28:26   time, they're plugged in all the time and they're in your home. So it's ideal for that. But I feel

00:28:31   like that the idea that you that you need or want a HomeKit hub for a HomeKit house is kind of techy

00:28:39   and most people don't really think about it in that way. Like you can use your Apple TV or HomeKit hub,

00:28:43   I think you can use any of your devices, but of course your devices come and go. And if you're

00:28:47   trying to sort of live the HomeKit lifestyle, this is just one more sort of sad reminder of how

00:28:55   strategically maybe unwise it was for Apple to get out of the Wi-Fi router business. Because,

00:29:03   you know, if you're if you're going down that path of I'm going to have a smart home and HomeKit and

00:29:09   things listen to me and so on and so forth and you're going to buy this expensive thing and

00:29:14   stick them all around your house, like this Wi-Fi mesh networking, right? You're already

00:29:18   buying a bunch of these little turds with CPUs in them and spreading them over your house and

00:29:22   they already have to be on Wi-Fi. Just, you know, maybe maybe Apple will come back to it someday,

00:29:27   but I feel like that is a potentially a missing piece. Now Amazon and Google don't do that either

00:29:31   for the most part. I don't think either one of them have a product that is also a Wi-Fi hub.

00:29:34   It just seems like a thing that Apple could do that would make this product more attractive.

00:29:38   Kind of like, well, I'm just going to get the Apple Wi-Fi from my house. And by the way,

00:29:42   every one of those Wi-Fi things is also a little smart speaker home pod thing that I can talk to.

00:29:46   Right? I keep thinking about the fact that I've purchased two Google homes, a big one and a small

00:29:51   one. And Google has given me two of them for free because I because I pay for their cloud storage.

00:29:56   Right? Apple doesn't do that. Apple's not giving me any of these little balls for free,

00:30:00   despite the fact that I've also paid for their maximum amount of cloud stuff and will pay for

00:30:04   Apple one. That's not the kind of business Apple runs. But the fact that Google devices are slowly

00:30:09   outnumbering everything else in my house is purely attributable to Google giving me their cheapest

00:30:14   little puck thing. And you know what, when the home pod doesn't hear me turn on the lights,

00:30:18   the next one I go to is that cheap little puck. And why do I do that? Because it's right in the

00:30:22   same room. It's right there next to the lights. So yeah, I mean, I think I actually officially

00:30:27   have Google home devices because I have Nest cameras. And they made some change about a year

00:30:34   ago where like, you can just now turn on a Nest cameras ability to be Google ball. Is it because

00:30:41   they have microphones and speakers in them? So because you can do like that talk through thing.

00:30:44   So like, I didn't either. But like, I technically have like three of them. It's like, they just

00:30:50   they're shoving them into everything and Amazon to you know, Amazon to their credit. They have so

00:30:56   much hardware that can be an Amazon, you know, Alexa powered thing. And it isn't just their

00:31:02   hardware. They've they've also enabled other people to build that into the point where I think

00:31:07   I think I have at least one TV that has it built in, as well as God knows what else. I mean,

00:31:14   my printer probably hasn't built in at this point. Like there's so much there's so much stuff that

00:31:19   has Amazon Alexa or the Google Assistant or both built in that, you know, it's they're just kind of

00:31:25   everywhere. They're just shoving it any place they possibly can to really make it ubiquitous for

00:31:30   as many people as possible. And Apple is just never going to compete in that particular arena.

00:31:36   Where they do compete is everyone has iPhones. So they use that to their advantage. Then if you have

00:31:42   an iPhone and you have an Apple Watch and you have iPads and you have Macs, then we're going to have

00:31:47   that everywhere. And I think it's smart for Apple to build on that to have something like intercom,

00:31:51   you know, it's building that but that assumes or that requires that their home smart speaker

00:31:57   situation get a lot better than where it is today. So if the HomePod mini succeeds, and they actually

00:32:03   end up selling a bunch of them, then great, then they will have a really competitive ecosystem

00:32:09   against what I think now is going mostly to Amazon for a lot of their customers. But that's a big if

00:32:14   and I think that still depends a lot on Siri being way faster and way more consistent and way smarter

00:32:22   than it is today. And Apple has seemed to not be able to nail that ever throughout series entire

00:32:29   lifespan so far, which is now I mean, Siri launched it with the iPhone four s. So that's that's a long

00:32:38   time ago now. And and it should be better than it is for how long you know, they even said like Siri

00:32:44   was the was the first voice assistant like yes, or that you know, whatever they whatever qualifications

00:32:47   they put in that that was true. The echo came out a few years later. And it just iterated way faster

00:32:53   and got way better than Siri very quickly. Whatever ability Apple has to get a fire lit under their

00:32:58   butts to achieve great things. You know, they get that ability sometimes and they focus it in great

00:33:03   ways. Usually, that effort has seemingly never been focused on Siri. And I wish it would be because

00:33:09   so much could get so much better if it was. Yeah, they also mentioned the carplay integration. That

00:33:14   was one of their only Apple moments was like, hey, we have a thing in the car, we've got your phone,

00:33:18   we've got your iPads, we've got your computers, and we've got these home speakers, and it can all

00:33:22   be integrated. So you can intercom and someone who's in the car pull up the driveway can hear it,

00:33:26   I forgot what the demo was. But like all that integration makes a lot of sense. I think it's

00:33:30   good for Apple to be building on that the U1 thing the handoff because they've got the chip in your

00:33:35   phone, they've got the chip in there. That all makes sense. It's held back by by the serious

00:33:39   stuff that we talked about. I think it's still held back by the pricing because Apple doesn't

00:33:42   have a $30 on sale thing that you can put in there. And, you know, I think that the only way

00:33:50   you're going to get people sort of on board to this thing and sort of an ambient way is you have

00:33:54   to have enough benefits to get them over the line to overcome your weakness, right? I feel like the

00:33:59   series smartness and speed is their weakness. But you can overcome that if you can say well,

00:34:04   they're cheap, and they come with a bunch of other cool features. And you know, Apple getting third

00:34:09   party music services is trying to eliminate another weakness. They didn't announce Spotify,

00:34:12   but there are future announcements coming. So we should assume that they're working on something

00:34:16   with Spotify, just get rid of the reasons why people don't want one of these reducing the price

00:34:20   really gets rid of a big one. They seemingly can't get rid of Siri being dumb and slow.

00:34:25   So get rid of some other stuff. Make this a little bit cheaper, make a really, really cheap version,

00:34:29   bring back the Wi Fi thing, just get it to people's house, whether they want it or not,

00:34:33   Amazon Prime style. And then they can build up from there with services that I think,

00:34:38   especially local only services that avoid their server, apparent server side weaknesses,

00:34:42   they get a situation where, you know, without you even realizing it, pretty soon, your whole house

00:34:49   is wired with Apple stuff. And one of the big advantages they can lean on, and then they did

00:34:52   talk about it in this presentation, too, is the privacy angle. Having a bunch of Google and

00:34:56   Amazon stuff in my house makes me feel less good than having Apple stuff. Because in general,

00:34:59   I think they're better on privacy. And their business doesn't depend as nearly as heavily

00:35:04   on collecting information about me and selling targeted ads and yada yada. So I'd rather have

00:35:08   a house full of Apple things instead of a house full of free Google things are going to be a

00:35:11   household of Amazon pucks, right, there are strengths that Apple can lean on. It just and

00:35:16   they're tipping that seesaw away from you know, they're they're eliminating some of the weaknesses

00:35:19   of their mitigating some of the weaknesses and they're trying to lean more heavily on the

00:35:22   strength. So this is even though it sounds like we're down the iPod mini, the HomePod mini,

00:35:27   every aspect of this product is in it is some important thing that Apple needed to do. Just

00:35:33   that I think what we're saying is they still have farther to go. The only way forward that they

00:35:38   would actually do Apple is never going to be the cheap everywhere ubiquitous version of anything.

00:35:44   If Apple is going to succeed in this market, they're never going to take that path. They're

00:35:48   never going to be they're never going to have like Siri in everything. Here's a you know, $25

00:35:53   Siri puck for your car like they're never going to do that. That's not their style at all. And they

00:35:58   aren't good at it even if they wanted to, but they wouldn't. The only other path forward for that is,

00:36:03   I think, like, they're if they're not going to be the cheapest, which they never are,

00:36:07   then they should be the best, which they often are. That's their their way out of this, like their

00:36:11   way to have this market work at all, is to become the best. The challenge is that being the best in

00:36:18   this particular market requires them to be the best at something that is like, you know, a like,

00:36:23   you know, big data, serious machine learning, AI powered web service, basically. And that's not

00:36:32   something they have been great at. And that's an entire category of skills that Apple has

00:36:38   consistently shown that they can get like, 75% of the way there, and then they just kind of stall

00:36:45   they plateau they're they're never able to get as good at that kind of thing as other technology

00:36:52   giants. And I don't think you have like, this is the kind of thing like, if you would have asked me

00:36:57   before the echo came out, like, which company was going to have the best one of these things,

00:37:00   I would have said Google, no question, because it's like, it's right in their wheelhouse to have

00:37:03   the best voice assistant, for all sorts of reasons, data, machine learning, talent, AI talent,

00:37:09   and just having the massive, you know, web of data at their disposal, like, this is obviously the

00:37:14   kind of thing that Google would be really great at. I would never in a million years have guessed

00:37:18   that Amazon would have been able to build that talent and build that service in only a couple

00:37:24   of years, like, they built it very quickly. They built this entire thing from nothing,

00:37:29   the entire Alexa service to a point that it was really competitive and that it was better than

00:37:34   Siri in many, many ways, and it was way more consistent and way faster and everything.

00:37:38   Amazon just did that. They just built that from nothing in a very short time without having

00:37:42   a massive history of that kind of talent in their company the way Google does. So if Amazon could do

00:37:47   it, Apple can too. It's just an issue of they seem to have just not done it for whatever reason,

00:37:53   but it isn't that they can't. It's that they seemingly won't or just haven't. And that's more

00:37:58   concerning to me. But again, hopefully at some point, they will get that wake up call, Siri's

00:38:04   not good enough, and they have to fix it and they have to actually prioritize it and give it

00:38:08   resources and make it, you know, just make it happen, direct their attention towards making Siri

00:38:14   that not only good enough, make it the best, make it better than all the other ones. That's how

00:38:18   Apple is going to win any category they try to play in. And if they're not willing to do that,

00:38:21   they're going to lose. Google, I think is still the smartest. But I think what Amazon was smart

00:38:27   about doing was for the basic functionality, make sure we are fast and responsive and work in the

00:38:34   80% case. And I think Apple's grand vision has always been more like Google's and that we're

00:38:40   going to be super intelligent and do everything. That's like, if I had to give some advice to Siri

00:38:45   team, I would say narrow your focus. Just turn the lights on as fast as Alexa does. Just try that.

00:38:50   Like pick a few criteria, like stop thinking about how you're going to parse this complex

00:38:54   grammatical sentence to integrate these seven devices and yada yada for some cool demo and just

00:38:58   say, let's get the basics right. Because Amazon started with the basics and expanded outward

00:39:04   without ever losing the basics. And I still think Amazon is more sort of brain dead straightforward

00:39:09   than Google. Google actually does try to be like, just say a bunch of stuff and we'll figure it out.

00:39:14   Because honestly, once they get into text, they have their entire businesses built around,

00:39:18   just figuring out what the heck people are trying to ask for. Right. So I think you're never going

00:39:22   to catch Google in that area. Probably they have more data, they have more expertise,

00:39:26   they have more experience, but to be losing to Amazon in the, how fast can I get the lights

00:39:30   turned off? That's just, that's just embarrassing. So like fix that first before and, you know,

00:39:34   fix basic things like your uptime and the responsiveness of your servers and, you know,

00:39:40   all that stuff before thinking about the more complicated scenarios and the sort of, you know,

00:39:46   understanding what people say in complex ways. Cause that's, that's where the, you know, the,

00:39:50   the real, the next bend in this curve is going to be, as I always talk about this, being able

00:39:54   to have a conversation with one of these things and to clarify and correct. And they showed demos

00:40:00   of that all the time, but it's in real life. It's not, it never feels natural. You feel like I could

00:40:05   explain this to a toddler, but I can't get you cylinder to understand what I would like you to

00:40:09   do next. And that's frustrating. So whoever gets over that next is going to have a big advantage,

00:40:13   but for now we just want to play a song, turn off the lights, whatever. Yeah. I did think the

00:40:18   CarPlay demo was really cool. Like if you, um, ask where the nearest hardware store is, and then you

00:40:24   go and use your phone in your car with CarPlay, one of the destinations it will offer is that

00:40:30   store that was found a little while ago, which was really neat. I remember watching that demo. I

00:40:33   think it was target or whatever. I'm like, look, I forget what kind of store it was. And I'm like,

00:40:37   I have five of those stores and I know you're going to pick the wrong one. You're going to

00:40:41   pick the one that's closest or you're going to pick the one. And that gets me into the exact

00:40:45   situation. I was just talking about when I get into my car and I think it has directions to target,

00:40:49   but it's the wrong target. Cause I don't want to go to that one. Cause it's a mad house at this hour.

00:40:53   How, what can I do or say to correct the situation? I can't say, Hey, dingus know the other target

00:41:00   because only Google would understand that there's no way in hell that Apple's dingus is going to do

00:41:06   anything useful in that. And now you're just faced with this thing of like, again, maybe not a toddler,

00:41:11   but another human, you could say, Oh, I see what you did there. It's nice that you set up my

00:41:15   directions to go to the place that actually there are several of those places that live near us. And

00:41:18   by the way, I always go to this one. And so stop recommending that one because parking is a

00:41:23   nightmare. I never go to that one. I always go to this one and this for all these cylinders,

00:41:28   you just can't convey that you just can't, there's nothing you can say to the air.

00:41:31   There's no secret settings panel that you can probably find. And it's just that kind of

00:41:35   helpfulness becomes frustrating because now you have to cancel navigation, make sure you don't

00:41:40   start blindly following it. Cause it's taking to the wrong one or maybe like, look, I know where

00:41:43   all the targets are. Don't try to be helpful. Don't give me speaking directions to target that

00:41:47   I've gone to a thousand times. I know how to get there. So I don't know. I'm just railing against

00:41:51   these intelligent cylinders in John general. I think it is, it makes for a good demo and it's

00:41:55   a good idea and Apple should integrate their stuff, but their specific instance just triggered

00:42:00   in me. Like I, I can see how that would fall down in, in my scenario with the particular store they

00:42:06   picked. And I don't think my situation is uncommon. You'd be lucky if they picked the closest one,

00:42:11   they'd probably, instead of they, you know, send you to some pick one in London. Yeah.

00:42:15   That would be like directions to target Avenue in Pennsylvania. And like,

00:42:19   well, for some reason, target is 300 miles away. I had one of those today,

00:42:24   today I was coming home from a place. I took my, dropping my kid off at a place that I hadn't been

00:42:30   before. And I use the directions right. And on the way back, like I, I always have Google and Apple

00:42:34   and I, I run them against each other. It's my thing that I do. And on the way back, I said,

00:42:39   okay, okay, Apple maps. Now is your time to shine. And I can tell you to get there. There were,

00:42:43   there were many routes that I could go in and I picked one. I picked the fastest one. It was like

00:42:47   21 minutes. Right. On the way back, I say, okay, you know, directions to home, which is like,

00:42:52   this is in your wheelhouse. I know you can do this, right. You know, where I live,

00:42:56   you can give me those directions. It's really easy to do. And it gave me a route and it was

00:43:01   interestingly, it was a different route than I'd taken there. I'm like, fine, you know,

00:43:04   traffic patterns change time of day. It makes sense. And the time estimate was an hour and

00:43:08   45 minutes. I'm like, what? So I, I canceled it and I did it again. I manually typed in my home

00:43:14   address and I said, give me directions to there for my current location in this parking lot. And

00:43:17   it said, yep, an hour and 45 minutes. I'm like, no, no Apple maps. That's not, that's not right.

00:43:23   And so I went to Google and it told me 21 minutes and I got home like 21 minutes.

00:43:26   What the hell? And no, it wasn't sending me to the wrong place. It was sending me to my house. I

00:43:33   looked on the map like, yep, that's my house. That's where I live. Yep. That's where I am now.

00:43:37   Stuff like that does not instill confidence.

00:43:39   We are sponsored this week by Squarespace. Start building your website today at

00:43:45   squarespace.com/ATP. Enter offer code ATP at checkout to get 10% off. Make your next move

00:43:52   with a beautiful website from Squarespace. And I really do mean beautiful. Even if you have no

00:43:57   design skill whatsoever, you're not a web designer. You have, you don't have any design sense in your

00:44:02   own. Squarespace sites are professionally designed. You start with one of their amazing templates and

00:44:07   then you can customize it or not to your heart's content. And you can do simple things like,

00:44:12   you know, changing the colors and fonts and stuff, or you can be more advanced and you can really

00:44:16   start moving stuff around and really customize it as much as you want. All of this is all with

00:44:21   visual tools that are very intuitive and easy to use. And there's no coding required for any of

00:44:27   this. You don't have to be a programmer or a web developer to do anything on Squarespace. It's all

00:44:32   visual, easy to use. So, you know, not only can you, our listeners who many of you are developers,

00:44:38   not only can you save time and do stuff faster with Squarespace, but it's also really nice if

00:44:43   somebody has asked you to make a website for them, or if they've asked you like, you know,

00:44:47   recommendations, how they should make a website, you can easily trust to tell someone who's not a

00:44:52   programmer to go use Squarespace for their site, or you can set it up for them and then give them

00:44:56   the login. And you can trust that they'll be able to do it. That, you know, it's not going to be

00:45:00   some complicated thing, because you don't have to worry about not only coding, but also you don't

00:45:04   have to worry about keeping the server up and running. You don't have to worry about software

00:45:08   upgrades or patches or any of that stuff. And if your friend or you ever have a problem, they do

00:45:13   have amazing support. Honestly, though, it's so easy to use Squarespace, I bet you will never need

00:45:18   their support. It's pretty great. So start your free trial site today at squarespace.com/ATP.

00:45:25   When you decide to sign up for Squarespace, make sure to head back there squarespace.com/ATP

00:45:29   and use offer code ATP to get 10% off your first purchase. That's squarespace.com/ATP,

00:45:36   offer code ATP for 10% off your first purchase. Make your next move with Squarespace.

00:45:41   All right, let's move on to iPhones. We start with the iPhone 12, which is like the iPhone 11,

00:45:53   6.1 inches, but all of the new iPhones, hey, did you hear they get Verizon 5G?

00:45:59   Yeah, actually 5G was the first feature announced before they showed any of the phones.

00:46:04   That's true. That's true.

00:46:05   Like that was if you're going to keynote order, 5G was more important than the iPhone, apparently.

00:46:10   Which is so weird to me.

00:46:11   I mean, 5G is not particularly important this year, but for future proofing these phones,

00:46:15   which some of which will surely be in the lineup for years and years, 5G is pretty important.

00:46:19   Agreed.

00:46:20   And then also talking about how we're going to make it not destroy your battery,

00:46:23   I think is also important to point out.

00:46:25   Yes, I think 5G, the problem is that it's being grossly oversold for what it actually is today.

00:46:34   And the way, I know part of this is just Verizon being Verizon, a cell carrier selling their

00:46:41   network, claiming things that, claiming the benefits of things that are not due to their

00:46:47   cell network technology. But it just seems like both Verizon and Apple pushed 5G way past what it

00:46:58   can actually deliver, like in what they're hyping it up. And in the future, once we have

00:47:03   widespread 5G coverage, I'm sure it'll be great. Anytime the cell phone radio technology changes,

00:47:09   it is better afterwards. Like it is a better world. Things do get better.

00:47:15   But it takes a while to get there and it's a transition. And then once we get there, the

00:47:21   actual problems that most people have are still kind of the same because of the fundamental,

00:47:27   you know, physics and economics problems of cell phone coverage. I don't know a lot of people

00:47:34   who are looking at their LTE phone today and saying, wow, I wish I could do X, Y, Z,

00:47:40   but I can't because the radio technology is too slow. Like that's not a problem that I don't think

00:47:47   I know anybody who has. Every person I know with a cell phone, if they could ask for a way for their

00:47:53   network to get better, it would be two things. It would be either or both, give me better coverage

00:47:59   in whatever area I don't have good coverage in or in my house or in a building or whatever.

00:48:05   So it's coverage issues or data caps on plans that, yeah, we'd love to use our phones to download

00:48:14   at a gigabit per second, but we do that for a few minutes and we've used up our plan for the month.

00:48:19   Or even if we have a quote unlimited plan, we will hit the throttling limit when our speeds get

00:48:25   dropped down to like, you know, 128 K because we hit some threshold of gigabytes on our quote

00:48:31   unlimited plan. So all the things that we are being sold on 5G, like, oh, you'll be able to

00:48:36   stream all this video and do all this, yeah, we can stream video now at great quality if we have

00:48:43   good coverage and if we're willing to burn a bunch of gigs of data. But we usually don't have the

00:48:50   coverage that we want in many places and we don't have that many gigs of data to burn on our plans.

00:48:55   There are aspects of 5G that I'm sure, you know, they talk a lot about improvements in

00:49:00   dense areas and stuff like that and that will be nice once it's widespread. And eventually,

00:49:05   long term, if 5G technology allows them to deliver faster speeds and faster transfer and more

00:49:12   transfer for less money on their end, then maybe our plans will get a little bit better, maybe.

00:49:17   - Well, let's not go crazy. - Yeah, right.

00:49:20   But at root, this is solving a problem that is not the biggest problem most people have

00:49:26   and the problems that we have of not great coverage in lots of places and of not really

00:49:33   unlimited data and, you know, having to kind of conserve our mobile data still in certain places,

00:49:39   in certain ways, those problems are still here and they don't seem like they're going away anytime

00:49:44   soon. And so what we really have here is some wonderful hype about a bunch of stuff, some of

00:49:50   which might someday come true, some of which will probably come true but, you know, maybe not for

00:49:55   a few years and some of which has nothing to do with 5G. Like, some of the benefits they were

00:50:01   touting, doctors will be able to save lives because they are able to view the scan of we or whatever.

00:50:07   It's like, yeah, we can do that already on LTE, like, very well, actually.

00:50:11   - They were saying it would download faster so you could wait seconds to get the big image

00:50:15   instead of minutes. Like, it made sense in context. - Yeah, but like, LTE is very fast

00:50:21   when it has good coverage and when you have a good plan. Like, it's very fast already.

00:50:25   We're way past diminishing returns on a lot of the stuff that people do on their phones.

00:50:30   And so, again, like, this will be nice but I think it was oversold. It was kind of like when,

00:50:35   I don't know if how many of our listeners will remember and John, I don't know if you were even

00:50:40   paying attention to the Intel ads in the mid to late 90s but when Intel released MMX, this was

00:50:49   their multimedia instruction set, they had this huge ad campaign that strongly implied or maybe

00:50:56   even outright said that MMX made the internet faster for you because that was the time when

00:51:01   everybody was getting internet access and Intel wanted to sell its new chips and so they said,

00:51:05   they had ads to the effect that MMX just made the internet faster on your computer.

00:51:10   And I'm sure that was based on some kind of claim where, like, well,

00:51:14   web browsers have to run certain things that, you know, to decode images, maybe they can use

00:51:19   some of the MMX instructions and maybe images will decode faster and maybe web pages might render,

00:51:23   you know, 10% faster if you have one of these chips or something. It was probably based in

00:51:26   some kind of technicality like that but what most people thought when they saw the ads was,

00:51:31   oh, wow, this CPU is going to make my internet connection faster. And the real problem that

00:51:38   made the internet so slow back then was we were all using modems. Yeah, MMX might have improved

00:51:42   things but there was this other massive problem in the way that was way more of a factor. And I feel

00:51:48   like this is kind of like the inverse of that. Like, we're really selling and bragging about

00:51:52   this faster network technology and while that is relevant, it is a factor and maybe in the future

00:52:00   will be more of a factor, today it's not that much of a factor. And today, like, we have much bigger

00:52:07   other problems with our cell phone data plans and coverage and everything else that this isn't going

00:52:14   to really change in the near term. So I hope it changes in the long term and I don't know enough

00:52:19   about the details of 5G's capabilities to know like, are they going to be able to cover further?

00:52:25   Are they going to penetrate mountains and buildings better? Probably not. You know, are they going to

00:52:30   drop the price on our plans? Probably not. Are they going to, you know, make more unlimited

00:52:34   plans that are actually unlimited? Probably not. So you know, there's all these massive problems in

00:52:40   the, you know, in the areas that are holding back how and when and how quickly we use our cellular

00:52:47   data. 5G might eventually make some of them better but it's making seemingly none of them better

00:52:53   today. Well, just like the other thing, I thought with your complaint about Verizon, I thought

00:53:00   their selling of 5G was mostly accurate. Like, they didn't promote it in things that it won't

00:53:05   help with. They promoted the few areas where it would. That's why they were showing the doctor

00:53:08   with the scans because it's not like you're downloading an image of a brain. Those documents

00:53:12   are humongous and they're the type of document that at max ideal LTE speeds might take a minute

00:53:17   to download and now they're saying it will take seconds in those same ideal conditions if you're

00:53:20   on 5G. If you're going to sell the benefit of your faster connection, you have to find a use case

00:53:25   where it actually matters. They found one. Giant medical images. Is it a common use case? Are you

00:53:30   a doctor? Do you care? No, but that's why they sold it. Similarly, low latency for gaming. How

00:53:35   many people are playing Twitch games on their phones? I don't know, but if you're going to try

00:53:38   to find, well, does anyone care about latency of the cell network? I suppose if someone was playing

00:53:44   a game that required, like a network game that required really low latency, okay, that's our

00:53:48   thing that we'll sell. Like, I didn't think it was overblown because the scenarios they were selling

00:53:52   were so targeted at the specific strengths. That's why they didn't sell, oh, it will penetrate

00:53:57   mountains because it won't. It's not better at that, right? In fact, this is the main,

00:54:01   the root problem of 5G is that its main improvements are in use cases like they said in

00:54:07   the thing. Dense population, stadiums, essentially short range, but your problem is there's just too

00:54:14   many darn people, right? And so that's what they sold. Now, I don't think that's particularly

00:54:19   compelling for all the reasons you said, because those aren't the problems people have, but that

00:54:22   is what they sold in the show. They sold in the keynote the strengths of 5G, which are not

00:54:28   particularly compelling to most people, but I thought they were accurate. And I thought they

00:54:32   were uncharacteristically underselling it by instead of saying up to 3.5 gigabits,

00:54:39   they said 3.5 gigabits in ideal conditions, which sounds worse. If you just say up to,

00:54:44   which is totally the Apple move, you just say up to, it's like, well, you get anything between zero

00:54:48   and that, which is true, but misleading. But if they say, here's what you get in ideal conditions,

00:54:53   everybody looks at that and says, oh, well, who's ever in ideal conditions? Certainly not me. And so

00:54:59   they dismiss it, right? So anyway, it didn't bother me. 5G is a problem to sell for just based on the

00:55:07   technology. But I mean, we're all glad these phones have it, right? And I'm particularly

00:55:12   glad that Apple at least says, we have to try this out to see how it affects, but says they're

00:55:17   doing something to control battery drain because in most cases you probably don't even want to try

00:55:24   5G. Like that's what that second one was about. It's like, look, don't even bother. Like if you

00:55:27   have a use case where you don't think you need it, you're not the doctor downloading the one gigabyte

00:55:32   brain scan, just don't even try to get on 5G, just stay on LTE. If LTE signal is strong and that's

00:55:38   all you need for doing whatever the phone is doing now, like checking email or something, just stay on

00:55:42   that, right? As opposed to a phone that's going to stubbornly say, no, I'm going to be on 5G all

00:55:46   the time because 5G is one bigger G than 4G. Therefore I'm going to constantly be on 5G and

00:55:51   destroy your battery. I'm glad the phones won't do that. I hope that feature works as advertised

00:55:55   because that's the phone recognizing all the stuff you were saying, Marco is like, is this a problem

00:56:00   you need to solve? Well, if you're playing league of legends or you're downloading the brain scan,

00:56:04   fine, we'll kick up to 5G, but the rest of the time you don't have to change anything. The phone

00:56:07   will just go on LTE and everything will be fine. That's how I hope it works. We don't have these

00:56:11   phones yet, but I'm glad that that was their pitch because that part appealed to me.

00:56:16   We are sponsored this week by Bombas. Bombas makes the most comfortable socks in the history of feet.

00:56:23   I'm literally wearing Bombas right now and this is Bombas season. As the days start getting a little

00:56:28   bit colder, nights get even more cold, the floors in your place start getting cold, this is the time

00:56:33   for warm, cozy socks and Bombas makes my favorite warm, cozy socks. I got to say, they are amazing

00:56:42   socks and I especially recommend if you're into the same stuff I am, I recommend the Merino wool

00:56:47   line. Bombas socks have really rethought every detail of the socks we wear to make them way more

00:56:54   comfortable and these socks do more than just keep feet cozy. They also help give back to the most

00:57:01   vulnerable members of our community because for every pair of socks you purchase, Bombas donates

00:57:06   another pair to someone in need. The generosity of Bombas customers has allowed them to donate over

00:57:11   34 million pairs of socks and counting through the nationwide network of over 3,000 giving partners

00:57:18   and the impact is more powerful than ever. To people experiencing homelessness, these socks

00:57:23   represent the dignity of putting on clean clothes, a small comfort that's especially important right

00:57:29   now. So give a pair when you buy a pair and get 20% off your first purchase at bombas.com/atp.

00:57:36   And again, these really are really nice socks. I strongly recommend them if you're into super warm

00:57:42   winter socks, try out the Merino line, trust me. But bombas.com/atp, B-O-M-B-A-S.com/atp

00:57:51   for 20% off your first purchase. bombas.com/atp. Thank you so much to Bombas for improving the

00:57:57   world two socks at a time and for sponsoring our show.

00:58:04   All right, so let's talk about phones. The iPhone 12 and 12 mini were kind of lumped together. The

00:58:09   12 is the successor to the non-pro iPhone 11. It is a 6.1 inch screen, but it is 11% thinner,

00:58:17   15% smaller, 16% lighter. And it has an OLED display now, which is really cool because the

00:58:24   iPhone 11 non-pro did not. And it has considerably more pixels if I understood this right,

00:58:31   460 pixels per inch, which is a surprise. I didn't expect to see that happen.

00:58:34   That's kind of interesting though, sorry to interrupt here.

00:58:38   No, no, go ahead.

00:58:38   So it does have more pixels because the move to OLED, they made it 3x retina instead of 2x

00:58:44   retina that the previous LCD was. But actually, our friend Steve Trout and Smith was poking

00:58:50   through the simulators and I verified all this earlier today. The previous 6.1 inch line,

00:58:54   that would be the 10R and the 11, the base 11, that had the same resolution in points

00:59:03   as the iPhone whatever max. It had 414 points across at 3x. The 6.1s up till now had 414 at 2x.

00:59:14   It basically took the screen real estate of the max and shrunk it down so it just looked smaller.

00:59:21   But you still had the same system layout as the max. The new ones are 3x density with the OLED

00:59:28   panels and what Apple has done with almost all of the OLEDs to date, they actually made everything

00:59:35   bigger basically. They would use the same screen real estate from previously what was a smaller

00:59:40   phone when they moved to OLED. And so for instance, the iPhone 10 and 10s and 11 Pro,

00:59:46   they have the same 375 point width as the old 678 series did. You wouldn't get more text on screen

00:59:55   or more width of images on screen at default settings. Everything was just a little bit bigger.

00:59:59   And what they've done with the new 6.1 inch line, the 12 and also the 12 Pro, they now both match

01:00:11   at 390 wide at 3x. So this is great if you were accustomed to the 11 Pro or the 10 or the 10s.

01:00:20   But if you're accustomed to the 10R or the base 11, you're actually going to have less screen

01:00:26   real estate now at the same size and everything will just look a little bit bigger. It is

01:00:31   interesting that they went this direction with it. But otherwise, it is very nice that it went OLED.

01:00:36   All the current models now, all the 12s have OLED screens. And they're all 3x density. Although the

01:00:41   mini has an asterisk on it that we'll get to later. Yeah. Although I think this is a theme of this

01:00:46   year's iPhones. And it's a theme that I like, which is uniformity across all of the products

01:00:51   that Apple fields. So they all get OLEDs. They all get, you know, it's whatever they're using XDR on

01:00:57   it. Like they're all HDR capable, like the screens are, you know, again, with the caveat that we're

01:01:03   gonna get to in the mini in a second. They didn't, they didn't downscale everything for the cheaper

01:01:08   phones. So we're going to talk about this in a lot of the features. And we're starting from the

01:01:10   cheaper phones, which is the 12. But I, it's, it makes somewhat of a problem in their line. And I

01:01:15   think we'll get to that a little bit later, too, which is like, okay, well, then how are you, how

01:01:18   are you charging me $200 more for this? And how do you actually differentiate them, but I love the

01:01:22   fact that essentially, they have one set of hardware for making phones. And they don't deny

01:01:28   it to you if you get the cheapest one. So now the cheapest one doesn't have just a good screen like

01:01:34   it always had it has the best screen because it's the same screen as the other more expensive one.

01:01:40   As far as we know, like I don't I don't think there's actually any difference in quality and

01:01:45   the specs that they said, you know, there is one small difference. Besides the the asterisk that

01:01:50   we'll get to in a minute, the non pro screens max out at 625 nits of brightness, the pro

01:01:58   screens are 800. In general, the uniformity of the the hardware features of these products is

01:02:04   something that makes me feel less bad about recommending the quote unquote lesser phones

01:02:10   because they're really good and they have good stuff in them. I think what is the other one

01:02:14   true tone? The other thing we all got that they all get the ceramic, ceramic shield, whatever

01:02:20   latest gorilla grass glass Forex drop thing that's not just on the high end phone. It's on all of

01:02:25   them. Correct. Oh, john, john, don't forget, you get great 5g service with Verizon. We already

01:02:32   mentioned that 5g across the whole line. Imagine if they had the iPhone 5g was just the expensive

01:02:37   one, but the other ones still stayed with 4g. Because you know, if you want 5g, you got to step

01:02:41   up to the pro. No, they all get it of all sizes, which may actually be let's get to the mini,

01:02:47   right. So the mini, the mini is the phone that has the most compromises, because it's mini. It's

01:02:52   it's in the 12 family. It's smaller. We talked about this before it was announced. Smaller

01:02:58   phones have smaller batteries. They also have smaller screens. But that's really their this

01:03:04   phones as far as we know, because they don't tell you lots of specs. As far as we know, this phone's

01:03:08   only saving grace when it comes to battery power is that the screen is smaller. It's got the same

01:03:13   system on the chip. It's got 5g. It's got all the same stuff inside it. The only place it can save

01:03:19   on power is either by being clock lower or having less RAM. But we don't know about those yet.

01:03:24   And Apple sure wasn't telling us. We have the RAM from Xcode stuff. Oh, that's good. Is it is it

01:03:30   less or the same? The mini and the 12 both have four gigs. And the pro and max have six gigs.

01:03:37   Yeah, so it has the same amount of I'm comparing it to the 12 because it's the only we've talked

01:03:41   about 12 and 12 mini right? The only place the 12 mini saves battery power is by having a smaller

01:03:46   screen and maybe having a lower clock CPU. But the battery is way smaller. And so when we think about

01:03:51   hey, everybody gets 5g. The last thing that I want destroying my battery on the mini is even

01:03:58   well intentioned attempts to hop up to 5g to do something like I hope you can disable 5g on the

01:04:04   mini because battery life is the big question mark on the small I know everyone loves small phones.

01:04:10   Maybe Marcos can get this one. We'll talk about it in a little bit. But small phones have smaller

01:04:14   batteries. And nobody likes it when their battery runs out. So I really hope that the mini is doing

01:04:19   as much as it can hardware wise to make that small battery last acceptably long, because the 12 is

01:04:28   sitting there right next to it with a much bigger battery and a slightly bigger screen. And I feel

01:04:34   like the 12 battery life has got to be way better. But Marco, you can talk about the the visual

01:04:39   compromise on the mini screen. Yeah, so this is this is the asterisk that all the phones now have

01:04:44   three x OLED screens. And they all display, you know, at three x with their relative point sizes,

01:04:51   except the iPhone 12 mini. It does have a three x pixel screen. And it does have OLED. And it's,

01:05:00   you know, it has, you know, you mentioned the the cool new glass, the super hard glass. I'm

01:05:05   very curious to see how that is in practice. I have high hopes because they push it so hard.

01:05:09   And I hope in addition to drop performance, I hope it's also a very scratch resistant as

01:05:14   Casey mentioned, last last week and on the relay crossover show this week. Ultimately,

01:05:22   the the weird thing about the 12 mini screen is that it takes the same point resolution,

01:05:29   the same screen space resolution as the 10 and the 10 s and the 11 Pro. And it shrinks that down,

01:05:37   it's 375 points across. And it displays that scale down back to the size that it was now,

01:05:46   if I actually took out my phones for comparison here, I have a few phones with me here.

01:05:50   I have my 11 Pro. I also have my old trusty jet black iPhone seven, I never had an eight. So I

01:05:56   have an iPhone seven jet black feels great. And I have my old trusty iPhone SE the first gen iPhone

01:06:01   SE that's based on the five s. And just for a size comparison here, I noticed instantly when I went

01:06:07   from the 11 Pro back down to the seven size, which is the same 375 point with the cross,

01:06:16   you know, screen layout wise, everything seems a little small. Because it's smaller because,

01:06:23   again, when they went to the 10 line, they just kind of blew everything up, they made everything

01:06:28   a little bit bigger screen space wise. What they what they're doing now is undoing that change

01:06:34   only for the mini. So the mini is going to it's going to appear like the content on it will also

01:06:40   appear mini, basically, like, everything's gonna look a little bit smaller. That's going to be

01:06:46   really interesting to use in practice. And like now that we've gotten accustomed to the bigger

01:06:51   phones, anybody who steps back down to the mini size, who's been using like the 10 size until now,

01:06:57   that's going to be a noticeable change that you're going to have the same width, you're going to fit

01:07:02   the same words per line of default settings, but everything should be smaller. And of course,

01:07:06   I'm sure a lot of people will just crank the font size up one or two notches to make up for that,

01:07:09   then you'll have obviously less space. But I think it's an interesting choice that to have that be

01:07:16   not a narrower, logical layout size, but to just shrink the what was the mainstream mid range size

01:07:26   in the pro line, at least, and then what was the only size in like the 678, you know, not kind of

01:07:33   the plus like that line. That is now the the width of the mini. Logically, they are the number of

01:07:41   pixels on the screen is not actually enough to display that resolution at three x, it's close

01:07:50   to do that resolution for actually need 1125 across the pixel is 1080. So they have to shrink

01:07:57   it by like what is it like 9% or something that so they have to scale it down. So the

01:08:01   as far as I can tell, so what we know so far, the mini appears to be running in a scaling mode

01:08:08   all the time. And this is something that we haven't seen since the 678 plus line. So we'll

01:08:18   see if that actually makes a difference with like noticeable visual quality. I'm guessing for most

01:08:25   people, it probably won't be noticeable because once you go to three x retina, some blurriness

01:08:31   and pixels here and there becomes very easily forgiven, and very hard to notice. I personally

01:08:37   don't have any ability to see individual pixels. And if I like, you know, if I mess up when I'm

01:08:43   drawing something in my app, and I like fall on a half pixel or third of a pixel boundary or quarter

01:08:48   pixel boundary on some line I'm drawing, I can't tell on a three x phone. So maybe this won't be

01:08:55   noticeable to most people. But if you're super picky about sharpness and visual quality, the

01:09:00   mini might not work for you. Yeah, I think we should explore before we leave this topic. You

01:09:06   know, before we leave the phones, what we're all intending to buy, if anything. But you know, I

01:09:11   glossed over earlier in I think, Jon, you had mentioned this, these do have flat sides, which I

01:09:17   cannot be more excited about. I am super excited to have the spiritual like you said, Jon, like

01:09:24   iPhone five ish, flat sided feel and look iPhone four ish. I know everyone loves the five and I

01:09:31   keep talking about the five but the four was the one that came out with the flat side. The four is

01:09:35   the best looking phone. This is the love child between them because it's flat sides like the

01:09:39   floor but no ice cream sandwich because the five was just a rounded rectangle solid. It didn't have

01:09:45   a part that was sort of like raised on the back and front. Disagree the best part the best one so

01:09:51   far was the five series. I know you disagree just you're wrong. But anyway, like for reasons that we

01:09:56   can't get back today, like like one of the one of the main reasons it was so great is that it didn't

01:10:00   have a glass back. So not only was it more durable, it was way lighter. And one thing I am so excited

01:10:06   about the mini personally, we'll get to that, you know, once we get into what we're buying.

01:10:09   But what's interesting about the mini is like, size and weight wise, it is not just like the six,

01:10:14   seven and eight. It's significantly smaller and lighter than them. It is not quite but almost as

01:10:21   small and light as the five series. And that's really exciting to me because, you know, I've

01:10:27   wanted a light phone, a small light phone ever since last summer when I when I carried just my

01:10:31   SE for a while, my first gen SE. And I realized like quite how heavy and big the 11 Pro and 10 10s

01:10:39   are. And so I wanted to go back for a while but you know, you couldn't get a good phone that was

01:10:44   that size if you wanted like high end stuff. And what's great about this is that now you can with

01:10:50   that one exception of the screen scaling thing and the sizing of elements on screen, which we'll see

01:10:56   how that plays out in practice with that exception. You're not really giving up anything else. And

01:11:01   that's awesome. Yeah, I'm, I'm really, really excited about the flat sides. I really like the

01:11:10   colors across all of the iPhones 12. I think that the five that are offered on the 12 and 12 mini

01:11:16   are all really, really good. It's white, black, blue, and it's described as green, but it's kind

01:11:21   of like a minty green and red product red. The blue in particular I love. And I also like it,

01:11:28   like it a lot of the Pacific blue on the 12 Pro, which we'll get to in a minute. But I love that

01:11:32   the colors are here on the 12 and 12 mini. And I know we spoke about this already, but I really

01:11:39   want to reiterate and we kind of talked about this on Fusion, the Relay Crossover show. It is

01:11:43   extremely cool to me that there are definitely choices to be made between each of these different

01:11:52   kinds of phone. But for the most part, there aren't that many compromises. There are certainly some,

01:12:00   but there's not that many. And I am really, really pleased to see Apple just let all of them rip at

01:12:08   the same time asterisk. So they're all just here together. And it's really to some degree, I'm

01:12:16   slightly oversimplifying, but to some degree it's here is what you want. How many slices of pizza do

01:12:22   you want? Do you want a one slice of pizza, which is the mini? Do you want two slices of pizza,

01:12:26   which is the 12? Do you want three, which is the 12 Pro? Or do you want the entire pie, which is

01:12:31   the 12 Pro Max? And I just think that's so great that there are so few compromises across the line.

01:12:38   And I'm really pleased that Apple was able to do this, especially in a year where I'm sure all of

01:12:43   this was extremely, extremely difficult. And this also plays into their sort of,

01:12:47   you know, economies of scale. And we haven't even talked about this, but I'm about to now.

01:12:51   This iPhone 12 has the A14 and so does the Pro and so does the Pro Max. Like there is no,

01:12:59   their new line of phones, their entire range of the new phones they introduced this year,

01:13:04   all have the A14. And again, they don't tell us clock speeds and they don't tell us RAM.

01:13:09   Apparently there is a RAM difference. Is there a clock speed difference? We don't know. Maybe

01:13:12   we'll find out, but in general, it's easier for them to just say, look, we're just gonna make a

01:13:16   bunch of A14s and we don't have to guess how many of the 12s versus 12 flows we're going to make.

01:13:21   Just make a bunch of A14s. Then they're all going to be in all of our phones. And so it's really

01:13:25   easy to recommend someone get the 12 as opposed to the 12 Pro. In fact, that's what most people

01:13:31   should get because it has all the things. And yes, there are minor weaknesses that we'll get to that

01:13:36   you may or may not care about. Most people probably don't, but the price difference is big.

01:13:39   And you get, you know, it's a future-proof phone. It's got a big battery. It's got a good CPU. And

01:13:45   Apple, you know, so the last time we talked about what does high speed mean? Oh, we wish it would

01:13:48   mean max, but of course it didn't. Is it just going to be 5G? Yeah, it was just 5G. In fact,

01:13:55   I expected them to talk way more about the A14, but they didn't. The A14 had already been announced

01:14:00   in the new iPad Air and they really didn't go much farther into it this time. They didn't have

01:14:05   a whole suite of benchmarks. They just had a couple of like, oh, it's the fastest SOC in the

01:14:09   market, which is true. And it stomps all over the Android SOCs, which is true. But they really

01:14:15   weren't interested in charts and graphs or anything like that. But something I was thinking about

01:14:20   with what they did say about the A14 in both presentations is they, Apple has done this for

01:14:28   several years now. I got to thinking because I've been looking at similar slides in the game console

01:14:32   world, because we're a new game console generation, when they show you the floor plan of the chip,

01:14:38   it's in Apple's pictures, it's kind of like a virtualized line diagram and it shows a little

01:14:43   square and they show you all the different things. I think maybe they started doing this with like

01:14:47   the M5 or I don't remember when they started doing it, like different regions they want to show off.

01:14:52   Here's our new neural engine, right? And it's this little rectangle on the chip and it's over here,

01:14:56   right? So I'll put this in the chat room and I'll put these in the, they probably won't be in the

01:15:01   show. Mark will probably make them chapter. But anyway, take a look at, this is the Xbox Series X

01:15:08   system on a chip, because these days game consoles also do system on a chip, which means CPU and GPU

01:15:13   all on one chip, because we have lots of transistors and it's much more expensive to make

01:15:19   them separate and you can get lots of benefits of putting them together. So if you look at this,

01:15:23   Xbox Series X system on a chip with the labeled regions of this floor plan, you say, boy,

01:15:29   whoever made this cares a lot about GPU, because most of the area of the chip is taken up with

01:15:37   GPU. Now in general, on the floor plan on a chip area equals money. It's not linear because it's

01:15:46   trickier to make different kinds of logic, certain kinds of more regular logic like memory,

01:15:50   or even maybe more regular things like GPU are easier to make without errors than the more

01:15:54   intricate parts of CPUs. But in general, you have a certain kind of size of a silicon wafer,

01:15:59   and the smaller you can make the features, the more things you can fit on there, the more

01:16:03   transistors, right? The bigger you make your chip, the more expensive it is. And once you have a given

01:16:07   area, the amount of area you dedicate on that chip to a particular function reflects how much value

01:16:12   you put on it. So a game console using looks like more than half of its area for GPU makes sense,

01:16:18   right? You look at the CPU cores, and they're practically the same size as the IO and memory

01:16:23   interface, maybe even smaller, right? Those cute little CPUs, you think of them running the show,

01:16:28   it's like, no, it's all about GPU, right? Because GPU can use all available area because you just

01:16:33   add more execution units, because there's always more pixels to be running through parallel

01:16:36   anything, right? And so with this in mind, with the idea that the floor plan of your chip expresses

01:16:43   the sort of philosophy and values of the product it's going into, like what's important in a game

01:16:51   console, it's GPU, let's consider the floor plan of the A14, which Apple has shown many times. Now,

01:16:55   it's not a real floor plan as in like a view through a microscope with false colored little

01:17:00   regions or whatever, but I'm assuming it is in the ballpark of reality, right? I don't think Apple's

01:17:06   showing us their exact chip design, but I'm, this entire section is predicated on the idea that

01:17:13   Apple's just not totally making it up, right? It is kind of suspicious that it breaks into what

01:17:17   looks like four neat regions. So if you're looking at it now, they have highlighted these different

01:17:22   areas of the chip, like the chip is a square, the system on a chip is a square, and the upper left

01:17:26   quadrant is Apple's six core CPU. And you can see the little six regions, you can see the four

01:17:31   efficiency cores in the bottom and the two big power cores, right? There's your six cores.

01:17:36   Apparently some part of the chip is taken up with a giant A14 and Apple logo. I'm pretty sure that's

01:17:40   not accurate. Right? Maybe that's a bunch of IO stuff in behind there, right? So one quarter of

01:17:45   the chip is for the CPU. Six cores of the CPU, that's one quarter of the chip, more or less.

01:17:50   One quarter of the chip, and this is a phone chip, is for the GPU, a four core GPU, right? So we've

01:17:56   used up half of the area so far in CPU and GPU. Half of the chip is less. What is in that other

01:18:02   half of the chip? If we just, we've used half of the area for CPU and GPU, what else could it be?

01:18:07   One quarter of the chip is the neural engine in the A14. It's the same size as the GPU core and

01:18:14   probably bigger than the CPU core. Just the neural engine, right? That lets you know, like, you know,

01:18:23   when Apple's dedicating one quarter of it's extremely expensive, going to make a million

01:18:27   of these, stick them in every single phone, it lets you know what Apple values. And in practice,

01:18:32   what is it that makes the phone a good phone? All that stuff they talk about with the camera

01:18:36   that we're going to discuss later, all the stuff that they've done, the face ID, the recognition,

01:18:40   all that stuff. Neural engine, it's bigger than the CPU. It's probably the same size as the GPU.

01:18:46   And then finally, the final quarter of the chip, which I didn't label all of,

01:18:49   half of the final quarter of the chip is image signal processor, which is different than the

01:18:53   neural engines. That's just like for the phone to do, for the camera to do its magic and also

01:18:58   other image processing stuff. And I'm assuming IO is the remainder of the area there. But

01:19:03   this division of labor is very different than the division of labor on general purpose,

01:19:10   personal computers from the past couple of decades is different than game consoles.

01:19:14   In fact, it may be unique for phones and it may be unique to Apple's phones to dedicate an entire

01:19:20   quarter of your system on a chip to the neural engine shows how important Apple thinks that

01:19:26   thing is to the functionality of the phone. And honestly, I think they're right. Like if you look

01:19:30   at what the phone does and how it does it and how it's able to do it, dedicating nearly half your

01:19:35   chip to neural engine plus image signal processor reflects the fact that, yeah, we call it a phone,

01:19:40   but most people use it as a very fancy camera. And then, oh, by the way, you've got a CPU so you can

01:19:44   do the internet stuff. And then there's the GPU so you can play some games on your phone.

01:19:47   It's really amazing to think about it. And if these current trends continue, I do wonder if

01:19:56   five phones from now, if we look at the floor plan and it will look like the Xbox system on a chip

01:20:00   floor plan, only instead of GPU being the giant area, it's just like neural engine. And then in

01:20:04   the corner, it's like CPU GPU. It's just, it's all, it's like rather than a Terminator movie.

01:20:09   It's all neural engine and some ancillary other functions to do IO and control the screen.

01:20:14   Pretty fascinating. Anyway, I'm excited that this chip, I think I'm more excited about the

01:20:20   A14 than most people are mostly because it's going to be the foundation of the Mac

01:20:24   chips. And you can imagine looking at this floor plan and say, okay, but what if I told you,

01:20:28   you could have twice as much area for CPU and four times as much area for GPU, then maybe we

01:20:32   can shrink that neural engine back down to its proper, its proper proportion and dedicate way

01:20:37   more transistors to CPU and GPU, which I think is more important on a say desktop computer than it

01:20:44   is on a phone. But yeah, this is, this is the chip they all get. And I think it's looking pretty good.

01:20:51   You're disappointed by only a high single digit percent performance increase, then

01:20:57   take a look at Intel's line and you'll feel a lot better.

01:20:59   We are sponsored this week by ExpressVPN. Every time you use the internet, big tech companies

01:21:08   mine your data by tracking your searches, messages, and video history. But when you run ExpressVPN on

01:21:14   your devices, it hides your IP address, which websites can use to personally identify you.

01:21:19   This makes your activity more difficult to trace and sell to advertisers. So you still need to be

01:21:24   careful what you share in social media, but ExpressVPN can make your web browsing way more

01:21:29   anonymous. And ExpressVPN also encrypts 100% of your internet data to keep you safe from hackers

01:21:36   and prying eyes along the way. And many VPNs slow down your internet connection, but not ExpressVPN.

01:21:42   It's incredibly fast and easy to use. You just tap one button and you're protected. So if you don't

01:21:48   like the idea of tech companies exploiting your personal information, then visit expressvpn.com/atp

01:21:55   right now and you can get three extra months of ExpressVPN for free. That's expressvpn.com/atp

01:22:02   to protect your data. Go to expressvpn.com/atp to learn more. Thank you to ExpressVPN for sponsoring

01:22:10   our show. All right, so let's talk about iPhone 12 Pro. This was

01:22:18   mostly bliss for me and then just a little bit of utter, utter despair. So the 12 Pro is much like

01:22:26   the 11 Pro. It has the three camera system, which has been improved. It has the standard wide lens.

01:22:33   It has a, I believe it's a larger aperture, ultra wide. Is that right? Did I get that right?

01:22:38   Uh, yeah, I think, yeah, it's, I hate these terms. Can we just say the 0.5 X camera, the 1x camera,

01:22:45   and the 2x camera? That's fair. Yeah. So, so the, the 0.5 X camera got better. They didn't,

01:22:53   I don't think they were very clear on how it got better, but the camera people at places like

01:22:58   Halide seem to think that it is at least significantly sharper. So that's nice. The,

01:23:04   the 1x camera on the non-Max Pro has a faster lens, less and more light, F 1.6,

01:23:14   up from F 1.8. So that's good. So that's, it it'll be better in low light just for that reason alone.

01:23:20   The 2x camera on the regular Pro seems to be, I think unchanged or at least not significantly

01:23:29   changed. The Max has two other changes. The Max has the, the 1x camera in addition to having

01:23:37   that faster lens also has a larger sensor and that allows it to capture more light,

01:23:45   which is better for low light pictures for lots of reasons. And not just a little bit bigger sensor,

01:23:49   47% bigger sensor. It's, it's much bigger. Yeah. So a much bigger 1x camera sensor. The 1x camera

01:23:57   also has a better version of image stabilization. It shifts the sensor around instead of shifting

01:24:02   one of the lens elements around, which lets it basically respond faster and everything. So it's

01:24:07   better stabilization, bigger sensor, all that adds up to way better low light performance.

01:24:12   And then the 2x camera on the Max is now a 2.5x and it has an actual, it actually has a

01:24:22   less bright lens. It goes from F 2.0 to F 2.2. So that I think is going to be a mixed blessing

01:24:30   in practice. One of the problems that the 2x cameras have always had ever since the very first

01:24:36   one in what was it? The, was it the 6s max or plus seven, but I'm not confident I'm right about that.

01:24:42   Yeah, maybe. Anyway, whenever the 2x cameras been added, there's always been a significantly worse

01:24:49   optical quality, usually with usually being in having a tighter aperture lens than the 1x camera.

01:24:57   And the result of this has been usually pretty obvious in use that the pictures that you take

01:25:04   with a 2x camera usually have worse noise, worse color, worse contrast. Like they're usually just

01:25:12   not as nice looking, especially in low light. And it's to the point where in low light,

01:25:16   the system knows this. And so in low light, oftentimes, even if you have the 2x selected

01:25:23   as your focal length in the camera app, oftentimes the iOS image processor will actually use the 1x

01:25:29   camera and just crop in in the middle, because it knows that in that below a certain light level,

01:25:36   that's actually going to be better results for you than actually using the 2x camera because it has

01:25:41   such worse light performance. And so what they're what they're doing here with the max by scooting

01:25:48   it a little bit further in, it's now a 2.5x zoom. But because it has that less bright lens

01:25:55   from 2.2 to two or from 2.2. I think it might exacerbate that problem of your 2x photos not

01:26:02   looking very good. And this is actually part of the reason why, like in practice, I don't use my

01:26:09   2x camera very much whenever I want to capture something really great. That's a little far away,

01:26:13   I'll try to just get closer to it. And I'll try to use the 1x camera anyway, because the 1x pictures

01:26:18   always look better. And I think this is probably going to make this an even bigger difference,

01:26:23   because not only did they make the 2x camera worse, but then they made the 1x camera so much better

01:26:30   on the max, but with the new sensor and everything. So I think it's actually going to be a pretty

01:26:35   substantial difference in quality between those two cameras. And so in practice, I bet max owners

01:26:40   won't actually use that 2.5x camera very often. It's interesting to hear you say this, and you're

01:26:46   not the only person who said, "Oh, I never really use the 2x." I feel like I use my 2x quite a bit,

01:26:51   because I'm trying to catch like a small child running away or something like that, which

01:26:57   arguably means I should be on the 1x. But my point is just that I really, really, and I'm kind of

01:27:03   jumping ahead a little bit here, I really like the idea of the 12 mini. And not having held one,

01:27:10   of course, it just seems like that would be such an unbelievably great set of compromises.

01:27:17   But I really don't want to lose out on the three camera system. And I think I feel more strongly

01:27:23   that I do not want to lose out on the three camera system than I do that I want a smaller phone,

01:27:27   because really I want both. And in a perfect world, I would have a 12 mini that has all

01:27:35   three cameras. And if the 12 mini did have all three camera lenses, I don't think I would be

01:27:40   waffling at all. I think that's absolutely what I would get. But because I don't want to give up the

01:27:44   telephoto, and maybe I'm wrong, maybe I don't use it as much as I think I do, but I feel like I do.

01:27:49   And so because of that, I think what I plan to buy is a 12 Pro. Now on the flip side of that,

01:27:58   however, I really do want the best camera I can get on my iPhone. And I am not looking forward

01:28:04   to the smugness of everyone, particularly Mr. Mike Hurley, when he gets his 12 Pro Max. And the 1x

01:28:13   photos are just phenomenal, particularly in low light situations. I'm going to be super jealous.

01:28:18   Well, I don't know if you're gonna have to worry about too much smugness, because like,

01:28:21   we've had many years where the big phone has had the better camera. And it's been better,

01:28:24   but it's not, it's not, you know, so much better that you should have this terrible feeling of

01:28:31   FOMO. Like this is it to the 2x lens issue, like this is something we didn't talk about too much

01:28:36   when we're talking about the pros and cons of having a big camera. Reach is one is the next

01:28:41   frontier for phone cameras. Like there's a bunch of phone cameras out that have actual optical zoom,

01:28:46   because they do like a periscope thing where like there's lens elements that move relative to each

01:28:50   other, but they move inside the camera body. They don't stick out of it, right? Or inside the phone

01:28:55   body, they don't stick out of it, right? The reason we have all these stupid cameras in the back is

01:28:59   because none of them are zoom lenses. They are all fixed focal length and it is what it is. We use

01:29:05   smarts to switch between them. There was all the rumors about, oh, the big new iPhone is going to

01:29:10   have a 5x optical zoom range. It's like, yeah, from the widest lens to the most zoomed in,

01:29:16   that's a 5x range. 0.5 to 2.5. Right. But it's in three big steps. And if you want it in between,

01:29:25   it's all computer smarts, right? And reach is kind of, I'm not gonna say it's the last frontier,

01:29:29   but is the next logical step that phone cameras have to have. Because back when we were in normal

01:29:34   times, when you're in the audience of your kids assembly and they're all up there singing their

01:29:38   little song and their chorus or playing their instrument and you're in row 17 and you want a

01:29:42   picture of your kid, guess what? You're not getting one with your phone because it's just

01:29:45   gonna look like a bunch of blurred kids and you just want your kid. And you're not even

01:29:50   able to identify your kid in the dimly lit, you know, cafeteria or assembly area or wherever they

01:29:57   are. Similarly, if you're watching a soccer game and your kid's out there running for it,

01:30:01   they're gonna score a goal and you're gonna try to get, whether it's a video or a photo of your kid,

01:30:05   it's gonna look like a speck in the distance because of where you're sitting and on the

01:30:08   opposite side of the field. So you just do not have reach. And we've been trying to get reach

01:30:13   by adding more and more cameras to the back of our phones. And I feel like the 2.5x on this

01:30:19   is to try to give you just that little bit more reach. And in, you know, inadequate lighting

01:30:25   scenarios where you're in bright sunlight, you don't care about like, oh, it's not as fast.

01:30:29   It doesn't matter. Like you're in bright sunlight, you want the reach. In situations where you're in

01:30:34   a dimly lit place, then it's exactly the same trade-off Mark was talking about. It's probably

01:30:37   gonna use the 1x camera because that's what's important in that scenario. But 2.5x is not a lot

01:30:43   of reach. I know when they say 5x optical zoom, that's from the super wide one to this, right?

01:30:48   You're not going to be snagging a shot of your, you know, kid kicking the winning goal from the

01:30:56   opposite side of the field. You're gonna get a picture of the entire team. Somewhere in there

01:31:01   is your kid kicking, but you're not gonna get your kid kicking. And yes, you could just run to

01:31:06   get closer, but sometimes you can't get any closer. Again, if you're in the big assembly at school,

01:31:10   you've got the seat that you got. And maybe you could run it on the side of the field,

01:31:13   but if it's a big soccer field, you're in there in the middle of the field and you're on the

01:31:16   sideline, there's no getting around that distance. So we're still working on that in the phone world.

01:31:22   I feel like it's, I don't know if it's inevitable because I've never used one of these telescoping

01:31:26   optical ones in like the Android world, right? But if that is at all viable, eventually,

01:31:33   probably on the big phone first, Apple is going to have to eat that internal space cost and say,

01:31:38   or maybe, maybe they've already done it. If you took all three of these lenses and then replaced

01:31:43   them with one fixed focal length, really good lens, and then one internal periscope optical

01:31:48   zoom lens, would that take up more or less room than the current giant cluster of things? I'm not

01:31:52   sure, but I, you know, it, I don't begrudge the big phone to have a better camera because it's

01:31:59   just got more room in there for stuff. How much more room does the sensor shift take? How much

01:32:03   more room does the little thing take? Probably not that much more, but hey, the phone that has

01:32:08   more room is that one and it's bigger and it's more expensive by all means differentiate it. But,

01:32:12   and that's like the 2.5X, I feel like is them saying, and also if you just want a little bit

01:32:18   more reach, the big phone will give you that too. But the next step we need to move to is not just

01:32:23   a little bit more reach, but like, can I take a picture of my kid playing their instrument up on

01:32:28   stage in the school assembly or do I have to get the entire group? And that's, that is going to be

01:32:33   a big upgrade. We, we can't really get there with like megapixel expansion and cropping. Like,

01:32:39   I think we just have to get there with optics. I mean, this, again, I say this based on, I've never

01:32:44   actually used one of those periscope zoom phones, so maybe they're terrible. Maybe that technology

01:32:48   simply cannot solve this problem for us for reasons that I don't yet know, but it's a problem

01:32:52   that needs to be solved. So until and unless we get to the point where I think I've talked about

01:32:56   a couple of years back in the show where the entire back of your phone is a gigantic sensor,

01:33:00   forget about full frame. It's the whole back of your phone, incredible light gathering ability.

01:33:04   It's a light field camera and we can crop down and refocus until we get there. We're going to have to

01:33:09   have some kind of zoom situation where we can actually get closer to subjects that are far away

01:33:16   and capture them with some reasonable amount of light. It's a hard problem to solve in a phone,

01:33:21   but I feel like that's where we have to go. In the meantime, the trade-offs between the Max and the

01:33:25   Pro, I feel what you're saying, Casey, about needing the telephoto, but I also totally feel

01:33:29   what Marco is saying in that 2x camera. It's never as good. I don't want to use it. I will always use

01:33:36   my feet if I can, and when I can't use my feet, I feel like I can't use my phone. So I don't know,

01:33:42   you can make your choice based on not having that third camera. I think if you really love the small

01:33:48   size or you just want to save a bunch of money, it kind of saves you from being tempted to use

01:33:54   the worst 2x camera and making your phone worse and basically just saying, "Look,

01:33:59   if I can't zoom with my feet, if I can't get closer to this subject, just this is not a phone

01:34:04   photo that I can take." And then you'll just pull out your big camera that you bought because you

01:34:08   followed my advice and put on a nice long lens and snag that awesome action shot of your kid

01:34:15   kicking the winning goal. Yeah, because I also, whenever I've had a 2x lens now for, what, three

01:34:23   phones? I never got the giant phones, but ever since they put it on the 10 forward, I've had it.

01:34:27   I do use it sometimes, but usually, again, usually I'm pushed away from it for the quality loss,

01:34:35   but also when I do need more reach, it's never enough. Like what you were saying, John.

01:34:42   That is true. That is true. I do frequently want more reach from my phone, and I hit 2x,

01:34:48   and I'm like, "Oh, that's it?" The main thing I use 2x for is to crop out more of the background

01:34:54   when I'm taking photos of my house so people can't see what a message is. It's not to get closer to

01:34:59   the subject. It's like, "I want a cute picture of my dog, but I don't want all my daughter's crap

01:35:03   that she left in the floor in the shot." So 2x, and now I've cropped it to closer to just the dog.

01:35:07   But that's basically it. So the 12 Pros also add LiDAR for the first time on an Apple phone.

01:35:17   When this was demonstrated on the iPads, and I do not have an iPad with LiDAR. I have a 2018 iPad Pro.

01:35:23   When this was demonstrated on the iPads, it was one of those like, "Oh, cool," sort of things for

01:35:28   me. But one of the things that they said with regard to the phone was that, "Oh, this will help

01:35:33   with autofocus," which I did think was cool. And I don't know if we'll be able to tell one way or the

01:35:40   other, but if we do see that, you know, autofocus is faster and/or better, I can't say that I

01:35:47   typically have a problem with that on my phone, but more is better. So that sounds good to me.

01:35:51   And then additionally, the Pros, I believe it's only the Pros, get ProRAW, which is a whole new

01:35:59   situation. And I think that Marco, you're probably best off of the three of us to describe what this

01:36:04   means. I actually don't know that much about it yet. You are right. It is a Pro exclusive feature,

01:36:09   even though it appears to be only a software difference. Like, it appears that this is not

01:36:14   due to whatever hardware differences they have. It might be related to the RAM difference,

01:36:19   but probably not. It's probably just software differentiation. But anyway, the idea here is

01:36:24   there's been a raw API access to the cameras for a while now, for at least a few years

01:36:33   worth of hardware. There's been like raw access for apps to use. And apps like Halide and other

01:36:37   like advanced camera apps do use it to great effect. But this is the first time Apple is

01:36:44   actually like offering a raw capture format. You'll be able to go into like the camera app

01:36:50   preferences from the way I understand this and just like and turn on some checkbox that like

01:36:54   saves your pictures as this new ProRAW format. And then you can import those into Lightroom or

01:37:01   whatever and do whatever you want with them. And, you know, other apps will be able to access that

01:37:06   as well. And that is it's interesting it for high end uses if you're trying to use and this is true

01:37:13   of any raw capture for the iPhone, but if you're trying to use the camera hardware, but have more

01:37:20   control over some of the effects it bakes into the pictures under normal circumstances, like things

01:37:25   like noise reduction, which is a big one, and other stuff like just white balance and various

01:37:31   things like that various color balances, dynamic ring, stuff like that. A lot of that gets stripped

01:37:36   away when you save it as a JPEG or a heaf because it has to like bake in a certain degree of all

01:37:43   those things to make the image look right. Raw in all forms, the idea is you just save whatever the

01:37:50   sensor data was. And you let apps after the fact make adjustments that are oftentimes able to be

01:37:57   done losslessly things like white balance, like you're not baking that into the file, you're just

01:38:01   interpreting the camera data, the raw data differently. So you're able to make a lot of

01:38:06   adjustments in the lossless domain, or do things in with different degrees of things like smoothing

01:38:14   and stuff like that, then what they might do automatically, to be able to achieve editing

01:38:20   photos and having more control over the way your photos are, are edited by the system, without a

01:38:26   lot of quality loss, or being able to like pull more out of them than what the built in processing

01:38:31   of the phone would have done on its own with your own like custom adjustments of things.

01:38:35   So it's very nice if you're a pro photographer to have raw I always shoot raw whenever I'm using a

01:38:42   big camera, even though it's very rare these days, as we talked about last week, but I always shoot

01:38:46   raw because I love the ability to adjust things losslessly afterwards. The downside is usually

01:38:51   that the files are way bigger, and way slower to work with with whatever software you're using.

01:38:57   And that's probably going to be the case here. So this is the kind of thing that

01:39:02   I would not recommend most people leave on. If you if you get a pro, I wouldn't recommend it.

01:39:07   And it's something that frankly, I don't think I would use. Because as much as I used to be super

01:39:16   into all this, you know, camera nerdery stuff, and I used to think I would edit my pictures a lot.

01:39:22   I just don't do it anymore. And anything that would add to my burden of taking pictures or

01:39:29   of having some kind of workflow to do afterwards, I know would not be good for me. And so I'm

01:39:34   actually not going to use this feature as far as I can tell right now. But for people who are super

01:39:41   camera enthusiasts, and who who are already the kind of people who today are using apps like

01:39:48   Halide or other third party apps to like, really process your pictures and do a lot of post

01:39:53   processing and editing on them. This could be really great for those people. I'm just not one

01:39:57   of them. Yeah. I have a lot of questions about this pro raw stuff. Like one of the big selling

01:40:03   points of it is kind of as you said, like in phone camera and all cameras, obviously, the raw sensor

01:40:08   data is pretty garbagey. And then it gets processed and you get a photo out of it. But that nowhere is

01:40:13   that more true than camera phones, because they're, you know, the sensors are so small,

01:40:18   the lenses are so tiny, everything is so noisy. And the iPhone in particular, its prowess is the

01:40:24   computational photography that the neural engine, its GPU, the image signal processor, all that

01:40:29   stuff is, you know, three quarters of the chip is working to take that ridiculous sensor data that

01:40:35   looks like how could you ever get a useful picture out of this and work their magic to give you a

01:40:40   really, really good picture. But of course, if you go to raw of just like brain dead raw, it's like,

01:40:45   well, but what about all the stuff that phone was going to do for me? The whole reason I bought this

01:40:49   iPhone is it does all this stuff, this computational photography, you're just giving me the sensor data.

01:40:52   This is no good to me. I can't process it manually like the phone does, because it does a bunch of

01:40:56   stuff and I don't know about right. So pro raw, it's like, okay, well, we know you want the benefits

01:41:02   of raw eyes, and we won't bake in these changes, we won't actually change the colors of the pixels

01:41:06   of your image, we'll have the raw sensor data, and then we'll just add lossless modifications, like

01:41:10   many image processing programs have done this over the years, right? Where if you change your mind

01:41:15   about that adjustment, you can readjust it, think of it as like a layer cake, you've got the raw

01:41:19   sensor data at the bottom, and on top of it, you've got adjustment layers, like in Photoshop, right?

01:41:22   And you can change your mind about the adjustment layers and enable and disable them and so on and

01:41:25   so forth. So what we want out of this pro raw is, what I would want is phone, do all the awesome

01:41:33   stuff you normally do, but do it all and essentially Photoshop adjustment layers on top of

01:41:38   this image. So give me the raw sensor data, and then give me every single adjustment you would do.

01:41:42   Now, I don't know if Apple's pro raw does that. Think of things like deep fusion, HDR, taking

01:41:49   pictures with multiple lenses and combining them, all that stuff, is all of that put in sort of an

01:41:56   adjustment layer? Or is it only sensor data plus denoising white balance, you know, curves, like,

01:42:04   is it just the straightforward things? Or is there a layer for deep fusion? Is there a layer for

01:42:09   portrait mode? Is there a layer for HDR, where they show me the three different exposures they

01:42:14   took each as raws? You know what I mean? That is an open question to me that I don't know

01:42:18   how deep down that rabbit hole they go. Because I think as soon as you start giving up any of

01:42:25   the cool things the phone does for you, it has a high potential to make your photos look worse.

01:42:30   Because the phone is doing so much work, and that's why you pay the big bucks, and that's

01:42:35   why that's half the reason this system on a chip in there does all these things, is to make your

01:42:41   photos look better. And I don't want it to not do that. I would want it to do that, and then on top

01:42:47   of that, give me a little bit more adjustability later at the expense of massively larger,

01:42:51   you know, file sizes or something. So I'm dubious about it being worthwhile,

01:42:56   except in very specific circumstances, to use the ProRAW, not just because of the massive file size,

01:43:04   but also because I wonder how much I'm giving up, right? If I'm not giving up anything, then great,

01:43:08   then file size is the only thing you have to worry about. But I have to think you're giving up

01:43:12   something, right? You're giving up, maybe even if it's just you're giving up the intelligence

01:43:16   choice to use HDR, right? Or you're giving up the Deep Fusion or like whatever one of those

01:43:21   things you're giving up. I don't want to give up any of them because the phone needs all of them

01:43:25   to make good photos, right? So it's cool, and I like the idea behind it. I really hope it is

01:43:30   as cool as I think, but I suspect that it is more limited, at least in this first iteration.

01:43:36   - Yeah, we'll see. Moving on, one of the things that I had feared in the rumors leading up to the

01:43:42   event, obviously from what I gather, everything leaked like the morning of, and I didn't pay

01:43:46   attention to it because I wanted to be surprised, but the rumors had said these phones are going to

01:43:51   get a little bigger, and I was really, really, I mean, scared is dramatic, but for lack of a

01:43:57   better word, scared about that because I really feel like my 11 Pro is as big as I would ever

01:44:02   want my phone to be. I am just not in on the Max/Plus Club. It's not for me. And obviously,

01:44:10   again, I haven't held any of these new ones yet, but I did on the Apple Store app, the compare your

01:44:15   phone thing where you can compare the one that's in your hand to one of the other ones. And I was

01:44:20   looking at this and between the 12 Pro and my 11 Pro, the differences look to be really basically

01:44:27   negligible. I mean, there are some differences for sure. Every dimension is a little bit different and

01:44:33   a little bit bigger with the exception of depth, but nevertheless, these differences are like a

01:44:39   couple of millimeters in any given direction. So I would suspect I'll probably be able to notice,

01:44:44   but I would also suspect that much like the notch, it will disappear to me within the span of a week

01:44:49   or two. And I'm really relieved by that because I was really genuinely worried that this was just

01:44:54   going to feel like a monster in my hand and maybe it will, but I'm not expecting it to. And I'm

01:45:00   really, really excited about that. And it seems like the decreased bezel size and the flattened

01:45:05   sides are really going to make a difference. And I have I mentioned how excited I am about flat

01:45:09   sides because I'm excited. Here are the actual numbers, by the way, because I was worried about

01:45:12   exactly the same thing, 2.7 millimeters wider, which you will be able to notice. Basically,

01:45:17   if you put your, if you took all the cases off and you put your current 11 Pro and just sat it on top

01:45:23   of the table on top of a 12 Pro, you'd see the 12 Pro sticking out from both the left and the right

01:45:27   side for sure. Not by a lot, but you'd be able to see it right. And you'd be able to feel it.

01:45:31   Height 0.1 millimeter. You're not going to notice that. Oh, you got your height and width confused.

01:45:36   The height is 144 to 146.7. Oh, did I reverse it? Yes. And then the width is just as you described

01:45:43   for height 0.1 millimeter. All right. Anyway, but yeah, the 2.7 dimension you're going to notice

01:45:48   apparently that's height and not a width. You're going to notice that and you're going to feel it.

01:45:51   The width 0.1, you probably won't notice the depth 0.7 thinner. You probably won't notice the weight

01:45:57   one gram. You definitely won't notice, right? So I'm relieved too, because despite the fact that

01:46:03   I will, you know, if you stack them on top of each other and feel it, you'll notice it's close enough

01:46:07   that I'm just going to forget about it. Right. Because once you get rid of the other phone and

01:46:11   you're just using this phone, it's going to feel like the same size. Now the flat sides, I know

01:46:17   everyone likes them because there's potential that it makes it easier to grip without the case. We,

01:46:20   again, we don't know how slippery these are yet because we haven't held them. It kind of depends

01:46:24   on what the glass feels like and what, you know, it's lots of factors that go on here,

01:46:28   but I do feel like kind of like the MacBook Air's wedge shape and the old iBooks kind of rounded

01:46:36   things that curves on the current line of phones are slimming. I feel like the curves are slimming,

01:46:42   right? Because it makes you think that the actual width is the width when the curve is done and that

01:46:48   is pulled in. You know what I mean? So I don't know if even though this phone is more or less

01:46:54   the same size, if it's not going to feel a little bit chunkier. Right. Does that make sense? Like

01:47:00   not does it's not going to be thicker. Like it's literally going to be thinner. Right. And it's

01:47:03   going to be, but will it feel, will it feel bulkier on the other hand? Will it feel so good

01:47:09   that you don't need a case in which case it will feel much skinnier because you don't have a case

01:47:12   around it. So these are, these are questions that can only be asked by helping holding it in their

01:47:16   hands. And we do not have these phones in our hands, nor probably will we, cause I assume we're

01:47:21   all just going to order them as soon as we can and then just cross our fingers. But many questions

01:47:26   remain about the squared off sides. But at least the question of the size, at least dimensionally

01:47:31   is relief for me in case anyway. Very much so. Have I mentioned that the 12 Pro also gets

01:47:38   excellent 5g service from Verizon? It's never going to stop being funny. Nope. Speaking of 5g,

01:47:45   I do wonder about that. I did, I did actually think of it because I haven't really, you know,

01:47:49   who cares about 5g. Right. But then I thought, you know what? I'm one of those people who has

01:47:52   crappy signal. And even though 5g is not supposed to bring any sort of signal on me, you know,

01:47:57   it's better at shorter ranges. I'm thinking, but you know, for all I know, maybe someone put up

01:48:02   a bunch of 5g things in, in sort of inconspicuous places that are actually near me and maybe

01:48:08   actually will have better signal. I mean, this is all fantasizing. Maybe actually we'll have

01:48:12   better 5g signal mass. I just don't know it yet. Cause I don't have any 5g devices. So even though

01:48:16   I get, you know, one or two bars on LTE, if I'm lucky, maybe I'll get better in 5g. So we'll say,

01:48:22   are there any other major differences in the 12 Pro that we haven't discussed? I think we

01:48:28   basically covered this, the video recording. So they do, uh, does HDR video recording,

01:48:34   which people, some people have been saying like, Oh, who nobody cares about that.

01:48:37   HDR is the most important change in video since high definition. It is not a thing that nobody

01:48:44   notices or cares about, especially when taking videos in the real world where the dynamic range

01:48:48   of the bright sun and shadow is tremendously bigger than any of our devices can catch. Right?

01:48:54   So any increase in dynamic range from SDR, you know, the, you know, the non HDR or whatever

01:49:00   is good. And people will notice. No, and people don't know what care with Dolby vision is,

01:49:04   and they don't know or care that always in an amazing, how you can adjust the video and the

01:49:08   Dolby vision metadata will update. You can do it all on your phone who cares, but they will notice

01:49:12   that HDR video is better than non HDR video, especially if the actual scene has higher

01:49:20   dynamic range than current phones can capture. So I think this is actually an important picture.

01:49:25   When you take a scenic video of a sunset on your vacation, it will look better in ways that every

01:49:30   single person can notice in HDR. If the screen can display it, cause it's got whatever the 1200 nits

01:49:37   HDR thing. If you have a television with good HDR support, it will look better there. The problem

01:49:43   that comes in with like, Oh, well, one of that, when I shared this with somebody over the internet,

01:49:47   well, you know, Instagram doesn't know anything about HDR. I don't think. And you know, so there's

01:49:51   a gap there, but I feel like for your personal enjoyment on your actual phone and your iPad and

01:49:57   your television, assuming they all support HDR recording video in particular in HDR is a very

01:50:02   important feature. And I'm glad to see it happen on the phone. The fact that it's Dolby vision and

01:50:07   yada yada, it's cool and everything like that, but I just, I just feel like HDR video recording

01:50:12   plus a screen that can show it in a more reasonable way, like 1200 nits, I think is reasonable. HDR

01:50:18   is an important advancement for Apple's phones. Yeah. That's a good point. And yes, I'm going to

01:50:23   say more important than 120 frames per second. We haven't mentioned that. I don't think either

01:50:27   one of us really care that much about it should come eventually, but I want 0% of my battery life

01:50:32   spent on 120 Hertz on my phone. I'm sorry. It is better. We will. We should get it eventually. We

01:50:39   will get it eventually. I hope, but I want to give up basically nothing for it because I actually

01:50:45   completely agree with you. I have it on my iPad and I I'm sure if you twisted my arm, I could tell

01:50:50   the difference between the two, but I don't feel like I noticed it very often, except perhaps when

01:50:54   I'm using the pencil on the iPad. Um, I don't think this is something I long for. I know a

01:50:59   friend of the show, Mike Hurley is not happy about this, but I I'm right there with you,

01:51:04   John. I do not want to trade pretty much anything in favor of increased refresh rate.

01:51:09   I mean, and that said, like if they just give it with a toggle switch and you can turn it on,

01:51:12   if you want to turn it off, you don't, then that solves the problem. I, I, the rumors were that

01:51:16   we missed 120 or just because of like screen hardware difficulties related to COVID or whatever,

01:51:21   like it's coming. We'll get it eventually. It's disappointing that it's not here this year. I

01:51:24   understand that. But for me personally, I'm not interested in trading anything for it. So if they,

01:51:30   if they just put it in a switch and let me do, you know, 60 Hertz max variable refresh rate,

01:51:35   blah, blah, blah. I'll be very excited next year when the phones have that. But I'm

01:51:39   personally not disappointed that the current ones have it. I'm much more excited about HDR video

01:51:44   recording than I am disappointed about 120 Hertz. Yeah. See, I love 120 Hertz on the iPad line.

01:51:49   It's, it's wonderful there. Then when I go to my iPhone, I don't miss it. Like I love it when I'm

01:51:54   using it, but then when I don't have it, I'm like, I don't, I don't notice it's absence,

01:51:58   you know, I will say the, the HDR video thing, John is significant. The it's, and it's a little

01:52:06   hard to tell whether they have improved the regular video capture or not. I remember back

01:52:13   when I think it was the 10 S first added, um, HDR video interpolation where it would,

01:52:20   it would basically shoot video at 60 frames a second. But if you had it set to 30 frames a

01:52:25   second saving, it would use that to basically do automatic exposure bracketing where it would,

01:52:30   uh, every frame it would shoot like a high exposure one and a low exposure one,

01:52:33   and then merge them together in real time to give you the, um, higher definition video

01:52:40   recording than what the sensor could natively capture. And at some point, I think in the 11,

01:52:45   they made it available also at 60 frames a second. Now, if you do, if you go to the comparison, uh,

01:52:53   page that the tech spec comparison page, they call that extended dynamic range for video.

01:52:58   And it's up to 60 frames a second on all these models, 11, 12 and 12 pro HDR though with Dolby

01:53:06   vision, which is the new thing on the 12 pro that goes up to 60 frames a second on the 12 mini and

01:53:13   12 regular, it only goes up to 30 frames a second. So that, that is one difference that if you want

01:53:18   HDR video recording, the 12 and mini can only do 30 frames a second and the pros can do 60.

01:53:25   This again, seems like it's probably software differentiation only. I don't think again,

01:53:32   besides the possible use of Ram, I don't think there'd be any hardware reason why this has to

01:53:38   be this way. Um, but again, this is yet another thing where like they want people who are using

01:53:42   the iPhone as a pro camera, like a really pro camera. They want them buying the iPhone pros.

01:53:47   And you know, I don't blame them. That makes sense. Even though this is probably going to

01:53:51   screw me this year, uh, because I think I am probably going to go mini. Oh, don't tell me

01:53:56   this because I want you to go pro. So if you, so this way, if you'd love the mini, I don't want to

01:54:00   know. I just don't want to know. I, I'm not entirely sure I'm going to love the mini to

01:54:05   be honest. Like, so just, I do plan to do it. Like my current plan as we stand today is to get the

01:54:11   mini, but I am a little unsure how I'm going to feel about the size. I, I'm a little concerned

01:54:20   about adjusting to the narrower phone for keyboard accuracy. I don't know. That's just usually just

01:54:24   like a temporary adjustment period. Um, and I'm a little concerned about just like having everything

01:54:29   be so tiny on screen and whether that will actually be comfortable in use or not. I'm not

01:54:35   really concerned about losing the two X camera that I think I'll be fine with. I'm not happy about

01:54:42   this video limitation cause I would have loved to shoot everything in HDR. But again, the regular

01:54:48   like auto exposure bracketing dynamic range thing they've been doing for the last few phones.

01:54:53   That is great for me. So I don't know that I necessarily need like will the HDR Dolby vision

01:55:00   thing is that actually capturing more dynamic range or is it just saving it with more precision?

01:55:06   You know, the talking about like the 10 bit HDR, like that's something I don't need. I don't,

01:55:10   I don't need the precision. I'm not, I'm not taking these into final cut and editing them

01:55:14   and making a professional thing. I'm just watching them on my phone. And so if the actual dynamic

01:55:19   range is not different at all or only minimally different between these two modes, then I'm not

01:55:27   missing anything cause I would never turn on the Dolby vision thing because I don't, I'm not a

01:55:31   video editor. Like I don't, I don't need that. Um, but if it is, if I'm going to be missing out on

01:55:36   lots of dynamic range by not using that, I will kind of regret that. No, you do want the Dolby

01:55:43   vision thing on it. It has nothing to do with whether you're going to be a video editor or

01:55:45   whatever. It's, it's more metadata about the range of values in the scene that changes over time.

01:55:52   Right. So you want that even if you just never adjust it because it helps give you a better,

01:55:57   better moving picture over a period of time with different areas having dynamic, you know,

01:56:02   brighter parts and darker parts and all that stuff. So you do want that. And I'm, I'm,

01:56:06   I have the same question about why is there a half of, why does it do half the frame rate and the

01:56:12   quote unquote lesser things? Like, I feel like this is the downside of the uniformity of the

01:56:17   hardware is that Apple is, does have to come up with some reason why you're going to be charged

01:56:23   a couple hundred bucks more for the pro and yeah, it's got one extra camera on the back,

01:56:28   but it's like, is that $200 difference? And so there, I feel like they're potentially

01:56:33   differentiating with software, which feels bad. It feels bad to know that you have a phone that

01:56:38   could do a thing and people get all upset about it, but it feels really good for them all to have

01:56:43   the 14 for them all to have all the good screen. You know what I mean? So like the only alternative

01:56:48   would be compress Apple's line price-wise and have the difference in price between the lowest end,

01:56:56   you know, the 12 and the 12 pro be much smaller than it is either by making the 12 more expensive

01:57:01   or making the 12 pro less expensive. And both of those things are probably worse for Apple's

01:57:06   sales revenue, profit, blah, blah, blah. So I kind of understand what they're doing. Oh,

01:57:10   I guess stainless steel. I don't know if we didn't mention that the pro has stainless steel instead

01:57:14   of aluminum, which may not even be an upgrade if it's heavier. I don't even know. Like I didn't

01:57:18   look at the weight differences, but like this is the, the narrowest gap I think ever between the

01:57:24   quote unquote cheap phone and the top of the line that there has ever been in terms of things that

01:57:30   you can explain to regular people. And I think it's good that that's true, but the areas where

01:57:37   they chose to differentiate them being software only just really doesn't feel good to tech nerds.

01:57:43   Regular people don't need to know like they'll just accept, oh, it does half frame rate. Well,

01:57:47   it's not the pro one. They won't get to yeah, but why, why does it do half the frame rate?

01:57:51   It's got the same system on a chip, like presumably at the same clock speed Rams, not an issue. Like

01:57:57   what's I don't understand it. I don't, I don't understand it either. Maybe we'll, we'll discover

01:58:01   what the answer is, but it could just be plain old differentiation. And that's kind of a shame

01:58:05   that they get, we didn't talk about this with the mini, but right. The mini, the, the reason

01:58:09   Marco has any angst whatsoever about that, or most of our markers angst about the mini is the fact

01:58:14   that it's not the phone that the mini disciples really want, which is just as good as the high-end

01:58:21   phone, but smaller and Apple just stubbornly refuses to make that phone for reasons that

01:58:27   make some kind of sense. Cause you know, smaller and it's the size based pricing of like max

01:58:32   software sells more because max screens are bigger. Like, well, it's smaller. Shouldn't it

01:58:36   cost less, you know? So like if they made one that was the 12 pro mini, uh, that would make

01:58:44   this contingent of people a lot happier. It's got all the cameras on it. It's got all the things.

01:58:48   There's no limitations, yada, yada. It's still Marco be worried about the screen being smaller

01:58:51   and the keyboard being weird. But other than that, it's a no compromises mini. This is a compromise

01:58:56   as many it's the mini 12. It's not the pro mini 12, right? So she'd be glad you got something

01:59:02   that was mini, but that's, that's the problem. If you want a smaller size, there is no option

01:59:06   for the, there is no M2 competition. There's just the plain old two series and no, sorry,

01:59:13   we don't make a fast version of that car. Yeah. And, and, and, you know, to whatever degree that,

01:59:19   you know, a lot of these limitations on the smaller products are physics, you know, like they

01:59:24   just can't fit as much in them. And that's, I understand that completely. It does kind of hurt

01:59:29   though when that's not the reason, like when the reason is just segmentation and price, it's like,

01:59:35   yeah, you know what? Apple has always made, you know, smaller equals low end, bigger equals high

01:59:42   end. And people who want high end stuff in a small product usually have no option. And I really,

01:59:50   as much as I want to complain about that in this case, the differences between the mini and the pro

01:59:58   max are so relatively few. And many of them relatively unimportant to most people that

02:00:07   as much as I want to complain that the mini doesn't have all the best features available

02:00:11   in some kind of like pro mini, I think it's still going to be so damn close in day to day use,

02:00:18   like in, in feature parody and everything that I don't think it really matters here for, for,

02:00:22   for most people, most of the time, you know, it hurts when people like me and Casey want the best

02:00:28   stuff, but we also want small phones. Like it does hurt that we can't get the best stuff at any price

02:00:34   in a small phone, but I bet day to day, we won't even know in the same way that like,

02:00:40   the vast majority of days I don't use my two X camera. So when I lose the two X camera by making

02:00:46   this move, I I'm probably going to regret it like maybe once a month when I'll, I'll want to hit

02:00:51   that two X button and realize, Oh, I'm just getting digital zoom now. This is crappy. But it's,

02:00:56   you know, if even that often, like it might even be less than that. Once I remember how crappy the

02:01:00   two X cameras always are. Yeah. Apple's been burned a couple of times. I wonder if this is sort of,

02:01:06   you know, institutional DNA of making the small expensive product. The G four cube was the small

02:01:11   expensive product. Didn't do too well. The trashcan Mac pro, the small, this is like basically the Mac

02:01:17   pro mini didn't do too well. There may be other examples out there like the MacBook. Yeah. The 12

02:01:22   inch MacBook. That wasn't really a pro. That was a compromise slow machine. It wasn't trying to take,

02:01:28   it had like semi-pro features. I don't, I, that's not an example of what I was talking about. I was

02:01:34   thinking of like, like no compromises, but small size. Like the only thing you compromise is on

02:01:38   size, but it's gotta be as fast as the big ones. So that then, you know, the trashcan Mac pro or the

02:01:42   G G four cube, even though they weren't exactly as fast, but anyway, I, I, for the, for the 12 mini,

02:01:47   I think that's the right choice. Like in general, I feel like most people are going to buy the non

02:01:52   pro phones just because they're cheaper. And so if you're going to have any kind of size

02:01:55   differentiation, put it in the phones that most people buy and then let the weird pro people

02:01:59   buy the pro things and be excited by the extra camera and their stainless steel.

02:02:03   All right. So a couple of grab bag things, and then I'd like to discuss what John and I plan to

02:02:10   do. Um, we didn't mention that the 64 gig phones are gone. So it's starting at 128 gigs, which is

02:02:16   excellent. So we have 128 to 256 and five 12. Uh, that's only for the pro. Oh, is that right?

02:02:22   Oh, I'm sorry. The 12 and mini are 64, one 28, two 56. The pro is one 28, two 56, five 12.

02:02:28   Yeah. And I think that's, you know, Apple doing anything with storage is good and doubling it for

02:02:32   the quote unquote, same price, which we'll get to in a second. Uh, yeah. Helps helps a little bit.

02:02:38   Yeah. Right. And so speaking of pricing, uh, Apple saving the environment again and passing

02:02:44   the savings on to Verizon with their 5g service. Uh, no, they are, they are saving the environment.

02:02:51   Um, the, in so far as they are not including the little brick in the iPhone box anymore. They're

02:02:56   also not including headphones in the box anymore. I don't think I have any particular problem with

02:03:01   this. I am. I find it ever so slightly gross that they're painting. It is exclusively environmental

02:03:07   when clearly it's helping. Um, it's helping their bottom line, but I mean, whatever I'll roll with

02:03:13   it. Uh, also interestingly, it's a USB C, uh, to lightning cable in the box, not a USB, whatever

02:03:21   the traditional way is to lighten. Thank you to lightning, which in and of itself, I think is an

02:03:26   improvement for most people until I realized after a while that wait, all of these 80 gazillion,

02:03:34   uh, bricks, wall warts, whatever you want to call them that everyone has, those are all USB a.

02:03:38   And granted they all came with lightning cables and so on and so forth. But you're, you're telling

02:03:43   us that we all have a bazillion of these bricks and yet you're giving us a cable that doesn't work

02:03:47   to keep shipping a cables. Like they need to be, they need to be the change they want to see in the

02:03:52   world, which is USB C everywhere. So yeah, the weird thing about it though, is if you walk into

02:03:58   a, an Apple store or order online or wherever, and you just get an iPhone and it's your first Apple

02:04:02   product, you can't charge it unless you already have something like he's like the USB C is like,

02:04:07   Oh, well just plug it into your Mac. It's like, what Mac? I don't have a Mac. And you probably

02:04:10   don't have a PC with you. If you just like, it used to be that you could just buy an iPhone and

02:04:14   have like nothing else in the house, except for a power outlet. And you were fine. Like, you know,

02:04:17   you could plug it in, you can get on the cell network, blah, blah, blah. Now you do. Like, I

02:04:22   wonder if Apple people in Apple stores will ask people, Oh, and by the way, do you have something

02:04:27   that you're going to be able to charge this with? Because if you don't, that's a problem. They

02:04:31   shouldn't let you walk out of the store without buying a little, you know, USB C charge you turd

02:04:37   thing for $29 or whatever. It's only 19 now. You literally can't charge your phone unless you plug

02:04:43   it in somewhere. It doesn't plug into the wall. It's got just got USB C on the end. Right? So

02:04:47   I, this, this changed to sort of more decontenting. I mean, there was a time when I think iPhones came

02:04:53   with a dock in the box or was that just iPods? No, I thought they did. I think the very first

02:04:58   iPhone might've come with a dock. Yeah. Well, iPods came with like an inline remote for the

02:05:04   headphones and a dock, and they just slowly been removing the amount of stuff from the dock and

02:05:07   in the box. And honestly, I think that's the right thing to do for a variety of reasons. I just wish

02:05:13   the pricing reflected more. I don't think they were pricing doesn't reflect it at all because

02:05:18   you do get double the storage on the pro ones. So there's a little bit of a trade off there where

02:05:22   it's like, okay, well, you're, you've more than made up for the, for the price of the brick with

02:05:26   that storage thing on the pros specifically. And also we don't know like, is the a 14 more

02:05:32   expensive to manufacture on this new five nanometer process. And we're reading like

02:05:36   the cost trade-offs are not clear when the, when the decontenting comes along with a new model,

02:05:41   right? Because you don't know what the cost of these phones would be if they didn't do that.

02:05:45   We're just assuming that's like, oh, Apple just gets all of that as profit, but it's probably not

02:05:49   true. Right. Whereas if they were selling like, you know, the iPhone 11 pro and then midway through

02:05:55   the year took out the, the adapters, but kept the price the same, then we could just say that,

02:05:59   you know, Apple is just taking all of that money or whatever. But anyway, I think it's a simplification

02:06:04   and a correct to reasonable simplification to stop giving everybody a million different headphones

02:06:08   and million different pro plugs and let people buy it in pieces. I think it would be smarter for

02:06:13   them to sell watches in pieces. They have in separate boxes and now they're learning how to

02:06:16   do return separately. Like a cart buying of the components is a more consumer friendly and, and,

02:06:22   and yes, also environmentally friendly approach. And so I applaud that even if we do feel like

02:06:27   we're kind of, you know, getting a few bucks pulled out of our pockets, especially on the

02:06:33   low end phones, but you know, the green progress, right. And the other thing you have to do is like

02:06:37   over time, inflation is a thing too. Like you can't, you know, I think about this when everyone

02:06:41   talks about $60 video games for years and years, it's like, well, $60 is not what it used to be

02:06:45   in 1998. Right. You said, let's just keep the price the same, but it's actually less now because

02:06:50   of the magic of inflation. But anyway, I'm, I'm not super mad about this. I do worry a little bit

02:06:56   about where people can plug in their brand new phone to charge it. Yep. I agree. Speaking of

02:07:02   money, something very peculiar has happened this year with regard to the costly iPhones,

02:07:06   which we were alluding to earlier, but never actually spoke about for, I believe the 12 and 12

02:07:12   mini, if you were to buy one outright, so a SIM free model, it's $30 more than the price it would

02:07:22   be if you buy a SIM included model from Verizon or AT&T additionally sprint and T-Mobile here in the

02:07:29   States, also $30 more than it would be from Verizon or AT&T, which is extremely peculiar. And I don't

02:07:35   really know why that's the case. It's their preferred partner program is basically, you know,

02:07:42   this is the, the, the rich gets richer and, you know, whatever business relationship there is

02:07:46   between Apple and these various carriers, some of them have a worse deal. Money gets passed on to

02:07:53   you and like, who knows? Like, I mean, it falls into the same category as like being charged

02:07:58   activation fees for quote unquote new lines and everything having to do with telecom companies is

02:08:03   just a mess of fees and it's disappointing and annoying and confusing, but almost anything having

02:08:09   to do with telecom billing that's true of, and that is also true of, you know, phones. I mean,

02:08:16   again, I still think back to the bad old days of contracts and all that stuff. And I think the

02:08:21   current world where essentially all your phones are unlocked for the most part, except what was

02:08:25   it? Except for the AT&T one, there was like, no, that's, that's almost it. If I recall correctly,

02:08:31   cause I was just looking at this the other day. If you buy a subsidized AT&T phone, then you,

02:08:38   then it is locked, but literally everything else is not locked. So in general, this trend is going

02:08:44   in the right direction, but weird carrier related charges and fees are still a thing. All right. We

02:08:51   also didn't mention MagSafe, which I'm actually kind of excited about. So I, I, I think I might

02:08:58   have like blanked during this, this part of the, the, the presentation, perhaps because I was

02:09:03   reflecting on 5G from Verizon. But it keeps on giving, keeps on giving. So it, it, I guess that

02:09:12   it's a couple of things all rolled into one, right? So it's improved faster wireless charging.

02:09:18   So it's like, you know, Qi plus plus, but it also is that the phone, if I understand this right,

02:09:24   the phone itself has a magnet within it that you can use to attach like cases and wallets and

02:09:31   things to the phone. Do I have that right? Yes. Yeah. That's what Apple's cases do. In fact,

02:09:35   like if you think about a phone with flat sides, how would you put a case on it? Like

02:09:39   in general, like our existing phones, whatever 11 or whatever you have, even my tennis,

02:09:45   the case goes on by sort of wrapping around the front and that's how it stays on. Like it's,

02:09:50   it's all, you know, you have to sort of wedge the phone in there and then the case wraps around the

02:09:55   front and that's why the phone doesn't fall out of it with flat sides. In order to keep the phone in

02:09:59   the case, you'd need a case that came up along those flat sides and then turned over the front

02:10:05   surface a little bit. It'd have to be like a lip, right? And those little lips are always kind of

02:10:09   annoying. And my impression not having seen anyone or felt one of these in person is that these

02:10:14   magnetically attaching cases either don't have a lip at all, or can get away with having less of

02:10:19   a lip because the thing that is keeping the phone inside the case is that giant ring of magnets

02:10:23   that's embedded in the phone and a corresponding ring of either magnets or, you know, magnetic

02:10:29   material in the case. And so they stick together and so you don't need as big a lip, right?

02:10:36   The other thing they promoted is like, okay, once you've got a bunch of magnets embedded in the back

02:10:39   of your phone, yes, you can use it to align to your charger better and that alignment can give

02:10:44   you more power. I think these chargers, where they say they were like 15 watts as opposed to the

02:10:49   first Qi chargers, which were 7.5 on what it was on the iPhone 10 or whatever, when did the first

02:10:54   Qi charging come out? Something like that. Eight and 10. Yeah. So, so that's good. The other thing

02:11:00   you can do with magnets on the back of your phone is attach other things like they mentioned a

02:11:05   dashboard mount for your car, instead of having one of those like the claw machines where you put

02:11:10   your phone in and it goes snapshot like a bear trap and your phone is trapped in this little

02:11:14   thing, like basically mechanical friction-based grippy thing to hold your car in the phone mount.

02:11:20   Now you can have a magnetic phone mount. You can have pop sockets that attach to the back instead

02:11:24   of marring your phone with some super sticky, you know, adhesive thing or whatever. You can have a

02:11:30   magnetic pop socket, right? All of these things sound super cool to me, but the presentation

02:11:36   wasn't over before I started to think about, oh, and by the way, one of the other ones they have

02:11:39   is like a wallet thing where you put credit cards in the little wallet attaches to the

02:11:45   magnets in the back. But I was thinking is like, how powerful are these magnets? You're going to

02:11:51   do a car mount with it? If I go over, you know, if I go through a Boston pothole that has already

02:11:57   bent one of my rims on my car, is my magnetically attached phone going to stay? That's gotta be some

02:12:03   powerful ring of magnets, right? It's going to hold the case on? Is that enough to hold the case on?

02:12:09   Maybe it has no lip at all, just the magnets are enough to keep my phone in that case? Or if I,

02:12:14   you know, wave my arm because I lose my balance or something and I don't drop my phone, but I was

02:12:19   just holding onto the case, does the phone go flying out of it? And the final thing is that I

02:12:23   thought of when I saw the wallet is like, one of the things I frequently do with my phone now is I

02:12:27   put it in my pocket in my new pouch-free lifestyle, and then I put my wallet in that same pocket. And

02:12:32   my wallet is full of credit cards. Do I want a bunch of credit cards laying smack up against

02:12:39   a magnet that is powerful enough to keep my car in a car mount? That is powerful enough to hold

02:12:44   a pop socket? When people use pop sockets, like it's between their fingers or whatever,

02:12:48   and they're just holding the pop socket. They're relying on the fact that the pop socket is

02:12:52   securely fastened to the phone. They're not holding the phone. The whole point of the pop

02:12:55   socket is it gives you like a handle for your phone. So these magnets have to be very strong.

02:12:59   I do not want any kind of card with a mag stripe anywhere near those magnets. And if you get a case,

02:13:06   like these cases that you get that attach magnetically, the cases themselves convey,

02:13:10   either have their own magnets or like they don't, you know, it doesn't shield your credit cards in

02:13:16   your pocket along with it from the magnets in your phone because the cases themselves have

02:13:21   secondary magnets. So you can still use it to align with the Qi charger or whatever. So I'm

02:13:27   a little bit worried about exactly how magnetic my phone is going to be because with the uniformity

02:13:32   of the line, they all have this. This is not just a pro feature. They all have these magnetic things

02:13:37   and it seems super cool. And it's essentially a variant of what I was talking about last show

02:13:42   about like, what can you do when you get rid of the port? Well, you can have semi-proprietary

02:13:46   charging stuff that also supports Qi, but also has magnetically attaching little manta ray things,

02:13:50   blah, blah, blah. I swear to you, I had not read any of these rumors if they had even been.

02:13:56   I swear to you, I have no idea. In fact, the thing I envisioned in my head was slightly different

02:13:59   than what they did here, but they literally brought back MagSafe because it doesn't make

02:14:03   any sense honestly, because it's not quite the same thing, but you know, that's what they had

02:14:06   in their brand name bin. And so there we go. Like I said, hell bring back MagSafe and they did with

02:14:11   the bell with about the same amount of reasoning. It's about magnets, right? But I am, I have two

02:14:16   minds about these magnets. Are these magnets strong enough to do the jobs they're being asked to do?

02:14:22   And are these magnets weak enough to not destroy all my credit cards? So I have multiple issues

02:14:27   with this. First of all, most credit cards are not using magnetic stripes anymore in most places.

02:14:33   It's there as a legacy thing. And this helps motivate people to put in a few more chip

02:14:41   terminals because they have to for lots of other reasons. You know, great. Hotel room keys is one

02:14:46   of the things that, again, I know we're not going to hotels now, but hotel room keys, it's going to

02:14:49   take a while before they're all updated to do chip things and being locked out of your hotel room is

02:14:55   worse than not being able to buy something in the store. Yeah. Although in all fairness,

02:14:58   hotel room keys seem to wipe themselves if you breathe on them wrong. That's what I'm saying.

02:15:03   It's already a hostile environment and I'm going to put my, oh, give him a hotel key, I said,

02:15:08   put it into my pocket up, it's dead. Yeah. Secondarily, some people in the chat are saying

02:15:13   that apparently the wallet thing shields the cards that are inside of it. I don't, I didn't even know

02:15:18   that was possible for magnetism, but cool. Yeah. So I had heard through various people that there

02:15:23   is shielding in the wallet thing, which makes sense because they know it's going to have credit

02:15:26   cards. So my question is shielded how is my first question. And second question is that's all well

02:15:32   and good for the cards that are in my special wallet, but what if I just literally put my actual

02:15:36   wallet in the pocket with my super magnet phone? Right. So this brings up number three. Actually,

02:15:41   I think they, so I know like one of the ways that watches are anti-magnetic for their, to keep their

02:15:46   movements from becoming magnetized. One of the ways to do that is by encasing the movement in a

02:15:50   soft iron cage. I don't know what that means or how that works, but that's a thing. So maybe they're

02:15:56   doing the same kind of principle here for shielding. So if so, that actually can work. But my, my final

02:16:01   question here is you put your phone in the same pocket as your wallet, right? Thank you. Yeah.

02:16:07   Why would I not, why would I not do that? Cause you have multiple pockets and that makes one

02:16:11   pocket really big and heavy and stick out really far. No, not my pants pocket, my coat pocket.

02:16:16   Why is your wallet not in your pants pocket? It depends on what season it is. If it's coat season,

02:16:20   I have big coat pockets. I put it there. Well, if you had a wallet that was less than 13 inches

02:16:24   thick, you wouldn't have such a problem. My wallet has slimmed down a little bit, but no, yeah, but

02:16:28   because here's why, cause my keys go in my left pocket and there's no way I'm putting the keys in

02:16:32   the same pocket as the phone or my wallet. Keys and wallets can share a pocket. Nothing. Phone

02:16:37   gets its own pocket. No, I don't want my wallet being my wallet being damaged by my pointy keys.

02:16:43   Your wallet is being damaged by all the that's inside of it. Are you kidding me?

02:16:46   Stop being damaged. I've had this wallet since I was a teenager. Obviously it's not being damaged

02:16:51   by anything. You've had the same wallet since you were a teenager. Yep. We're learning so many

02:16:56   things today. You've seen it. It's a nice wallet. It was 30 years ago. It's a black leather wallet.

02:17:01   Are you going to complain about my wallet? I mean, it's a little thick. It's it's, it's been,

02:17:05   it's been slimming down and you know, when people lose a lot of weight, but like their skin doesn't

02:17:09   catch up with it. Right. That's what my wallet looks like. Oh yeah. It's great. It sounds great.

02:17:15   Yeah. It's a good thing. You're not having any keys touch it. It's still pretty good. Anyway,

02:17:19   I've, I've been, I've been trying to also slim down on the number of credit cards I have in there

02:17:23   to try to let you know, like, you know, anyway, yes, it goes in the same, uh, because it's,

02:17:28   they're both soft kind of flat things that the phone goes screen against my body and the nice,

02:17:33   and the nice felt pocket and the wallet goes outside of that. Oh my God. All right. So moving

02:17:39   on. So Marco, you said you plan to get sitting here now you plan to get a mini, but you didn't

02:17:43   tell us what color you think you're going to get this. I'm actually, so one thing we haven't

02:17:48   mentioned, uh, let's, I don't think so is that the mini and max are shipping three weeks later

02:17:55   and ordering three weeks later than the, uh, 6.1 inch models that the 12 and the 12 pro. Um, so

02:18:01   I am torn. I think I want the red, but the pictures have been a little inconsistent as

02:18:08   to whether the red is more of like a salmon kind of color or whether it's like a more of like a

02:18:13   deep red. If it's a deep red, I want it. If it's salmon color, I don't. Um, and I think,

02:18:20   I think it's a deep red because like whenever the new product reds, they're pretty consistent.

02:18:24   If you've seen any of the existing product red phones, this looks a lot like it in the pictures.

02:18:29   Yeah. And that's why I think it's going to be great. And if so, I want that one.

02:18:33   My, my fallback is probably the white. Um, because I, I'm still in like a light color kind of mood.

02:18:40   I'm at the beach, man. I can't get kind of a black phone. So you're gonna, are you gonna get a case

02:18:44   with this? My plan is no. Uh, I want to see how it is without a case. Um, it does appear from the

02:18:52   pictures that they've pulled the same, um, finishing trick as with the 11 series where

02:18:57   the pros have brushed glass backs, but the non pros have polished glass backs. And as I mentioned last

02:19:04   week, polished glass for me causes increased grip. Whereas the brushed makes it like a little more

02:19:10   slippery. And so I think the combination of the straight sides, the polished glass back

02:19:16   and the smaller size should result in a much better handhold ability without a case.

02:19:23   So we will see how this works out in practice. I hope it works out that well because I would

02:19:28   love to not have a case. And if it ends up that the size is wrong for me, for whatever reason,

02:19:35   I'm hoping to be able to use whatever bigger phone I would get instead, probably the 11 pro or 12 pro.

02:19:43   I'm hoping to be able to use that without a case as well, but that's more optimistic.

02:19:47   Given how poorly I use the existing, you know, 11 pro with that case. Um, so, but if I stick with

02:19:54   my plan of getting the mini, uh, I do plan to go caseless. What about you Casey lists?

02:19:59   Uh, quick aside, the leather cases are not available right now, which is the case I used

02:20:04   to use up until the 11 pro and I'm a little bummed out that they're not available at least

02:20:09   at launch time. But they're, they're apparently coming around the same, like around that like

02:20:13   mid November timescale. Uh, for me, uh, I think it's been made plain already. I'm going to be

02:20:20   getting, or I'm hoping to get a barring a pre-order catastrophe, a 12 pro in the Pacific blue. I,

02:20:27   I love the midnight green that I have currently, even though, I mean, I like green, but I'm not the

02:20:31   world's biggest green fan. I think that midnight green is excellent. Uh, this Pacific blue,

02:20:36   I mean, blue is my favorite color, which is, you know, a very boring choice, I suppose. But, um,

02:20:42   I love this blue. I think it looks phenomenal from what I can tell. I am really looking forward to

02:20:47   it. So I'm going to be getting a 256 gig, uh, because my current phone is 256 and it's like

02:20:53   half full. So that's hopefully should be fine. A 256 12 pro in midnight blue is the plan. Um,

02:21:00   I don't, I never used to get Apple care. I did get Apple care on the 11 pro, which was clutch,

02:21:04   because if you recall, I shattered the back of it literally the day I got it. Um, I'm currently

02:21:09   thinking that I'll probably go Apple care again because I'm probably going to try to go, you know,

02:21:14   caseless Casey lists. Uh, but we'll see, we'll see where I land on that in the 11th hour. Oh,

02:21:20   and a quick aside, we are continuing with the East coast friendly 8m or pre-order time,

02:21:24   which I am extremely thankful for. We are not paying, not paying the price of the 3m pre-orders

02:21:30   that we did for like five years running. John, what is, what are your plans? Cause it is a John

02:21:34   Syracuse a year. What are you doing? Uh, I'm getting the 12 pro cause the size is, you know,

02:21:40   within, within parameters. Um, I continue to be disappointed by the top of the line phones,

02:21:47   lack of cool colors, you know, I guess the blue this year instead of the midnight green or

02:21:51   whatever, but I, you know, all the other options are not great. I also continue to be thwarted by

02:21:56   the marrying of metal materials with colors. Right. So I, this happened a bunch of different

02:22:02   phones, but my current thing that I want with this one is I like the stainless steel,

02:22:06   but I like stainless steel to just be the plain old silver stainless steel. But if you want that,

02:22:10   you got to get white cause it's the only one with plain old stainless steel on it. You can't get

02:22:15   like a blackish one with the stainless steel. Right. And I don't really think I particularly

02:22:20   like the white one. Now that is only relevant if I think you're going to use it without a case.

02:22:24   And as you noted, Casey, uh, the leather case is not shipping yet. So practically speaking,

02:22:29   assuming these things are shipped and arrive, uh, at times that are proportional to their release,

02:22:35   I will have this phone without a case for a while, because I do want the leather case. I've used it

02:22:39   for the past several phones and I like them. So I'm going to get the phone, use it without a case

02:22:44   for a little while because my case doesn't come yet and then put the leather thing on it. So

02:22:48   the model I'm probably going to get though, is I don't like the gold. I like the silver. And if I

02:22:54   had it in a case, I would never see the white except for the gigantic square that pokes out

02:22:59   the back of the case. So I'm going to do what I always do, which is sounds boring and it is kind

02:23:06   of boring, but you know, it's, it's the option that I find the least objectionable, which is

02:23:10   the graphite phone and a black leather case. And it will, Hey, that's how I rolled for years and

02:23:15   years and years. And I honestly, I liked it on my current phone. I liked that look like I mind my

02:23:20   current iPhone 10 S is whatever the darkest black one was in a black leather case. It's a black

02:23:25   monolith. The camera that pokes out the back is also black. It's a good look. I like it. I didn't,

02:23:30   I didn't compromise to get this. I always liked the shiny metal, but when I see the shiny metal,

02:23:37   just sticking out the bottom of a leather case, it's a little bit jarring. So it's like,

02:23:41   you know, what I would really want is the magical ability to use this phone without a case and have

02:23:47   one with stainless steel, uh, surround with a black back, but that doesn't exist. So I'm going all

02:23:51   graphite and leather. I think that makes sense. And two 56, I did the same exact thing. I looked

02:23:56   up my storage and I'm about 50% storage. So if I got a one 28, my phone would be immediately full.

02:24:01   So I've got to go to 56. Marco, what's your plan in that department? Two 56.

02:24:05   I'm usually hovering around 128 gigs of used storage. So, and, and you know what,

02:24:13   getting a new phone every year, it's a wonderful luxury. What else is luxury is never having to

02:24:18   worry about disc space on your phone. And so I figure if I'm going to do the ridiculous luxury

02:24:24   thing for getting a new phone that I don't really need, uh, I might as well spend the extra, what is

02:24:28   it? A hundred bucks to, uh, to make sure that I never see a disc space warning. That's, that's

02:24:33   worth it to me. Yep. Grandpa Marco is so weird. He always says disc space on his phone. What

02:24:38   is he talking about? Where are the discs? Do they mean the cameras? What's a phone?

02:24:42   All right. We don't have time for a full on ask ATP, but I cannot resist one question from Lou

02:24:50   Piper who writes, is John going to get the new Apple sleeve case to protect his iPhone?

02:24:54   See pouch. If you look it up, I don't think most people would think that it's the same thing as a

02:25:01   sleeve because the sleeve is like stiff. You know what I mean? Right? Like the phone, like when the

02:25:06   phone is not in the sleeve, you can still kind of see where the phone would go. Whereas when the

02:25:11   phone is not in a pouch, you could wad it up into a ball and it doesn't hold the shape or whatever.

02:25:15   So that, that case does not appeal to me in any way whatsoever. It's not a pouch, right? It is

02:25:23   a sleeve or, uh, you know, other kinds of case. Although I think Tiff had the, the most under

02:25:28   appreciated, uh, joke of the entire keynote, uh, live tweeting when she made a joke that neither

02:25:34   one of you got about, uh, the sleeve case. The imposter joke? Yes. I got it. Oh,

02:25:41   have you played that? It's happening in my house. I've heard, I heard on the, uh, the,

02:25:47   we just did an episode about the last of us and Tiff said, you didn't even want to be in the room

02:25:50   when she was playing that. No, that game was disturbing, but the imposter game around us,

02:25:55   above us, whatever that's among us. Yeah. Anyway, I thought that was really, but it does look a lot

02:26:00   like that. You know, so I'm not, I'm not going to use that sleeve case. I've never been into sleeves.

02:26:04   That sleeve is not a patch. And remember I am mostly, uh, I'm mostly off Twitter. Not really.

02:26:10   I'm mostly off the pouch lifestyle. We'll see. We'll see how this goes. New phone. It'll fit in

02:26:15   my existing pouch. So I don't need to get a new pouch yet. New patch. Who dis? Um,

02:26:18   you know, I'm going to continue to try to be pouchless in these weird COVID times.

02:26:25   Thanks to our sponsors this week, Apple, Verizon, and the 5g network.

02:26:30   Also Squarespace express VPN and bomb us. And thanks to our members. If you want to be a member,

02:26:39   you can join even faster with the new Verizon 5g network at ATP.FM/join.

02:26:45   And thanks everybody. And we will talk to you next week.

02:26:53   Now the show is over. They didn't even mean to begin because it was accidental.

02:27:00   Oh, it was accidental. John didn't do any research. Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

02:27:08   because it was accidental. It was accidental. And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM.

02:27:19   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them at C A S E Y L I S S. So that's Casey

02:27:29   lists M A R C O A R M N T Marco Arman S I R A C U S A Syracuse. It's accidental.

02:27:43   They didn't mean to accidental. Accidental tech podcast so long.

02:27:53   I can't believe you put me in a position to defend Verizon. Why are you doing this to me?

02:27:57   Yeah, you brought this on yourself. You could disagree.

02:27:59   No, you brought this. I hope you too get a ton of feedback of people saying the 5g stuff wasn't that

02:28:04   bad, but honestly it did not bother me. It did not bother me like it apparently bothered you.

02:28:09   It just didn't. All the things to be mad about 5g.

02:28:14   All right. So like, I don't know, a couple of months ago, and I don't remember how this came up.

02:28:20   No, we don't have time for this. I was going to have to save a 401.

02:28:23   No, no, we're doing it now. Show's too long. This is episode 400. It's important.

02:28:27   It's important. You got to do it now. You got to do it now. All right. So as I was saying,

02:28:32   a couple of months ago, we were talking about, oh, episode 400 is coming up. And,

02:28:37   and as it turns out, it was timed with an Apple event. So thank you, Apple.

02:28:40   But John had indicated to the two of us that he wanted to spend a little time talking about why

02:28:45   ATP is worth it. And I'm not entirely clear where you're going with this, John, but I'm really

02:28:50   excited to hear about it. So John, why is ATP worth it? Not ATP membership specifically, just ATP in

02:28:55   general. I'm continuing this under protest because I think this episode is already too long.

02:28:59   It has been noted. It has been noted. Second thing is, my plan for, and we,

02:29:04   I think this was like a year or more ago is like, oh, we're going to, we're coming up an episode,

02:29:09   whatever. But it's like, we never do anything for our milestone episodes. And it's true. We don't

02:29:13   really do anything for a milestone. It just happens that 400 landed an Apple event, which is nice.

02:29:17   Or not so nice, depending on how long the stupid episode goes, now that we're adding more after

02:29:21   show stuff to it. But what I thought is like, you know what, we should do something for one of our

02:29:27   milestone episodes to celebrate the fact that, you know, the show is still going or whatever.

02:29:33   And so here we are in episode 400. And what I wanted to do every couple hundred episodes is,

02:29:39   and this is just me personally, you know, Marco Casey can have no idea about any of this and can

02:29:44   do it, do whatever they want related to it or nothing related to it. This is just my thing.

02:29:48   You said it like, why is ATP worth it or whatever, which makes it sound like it's a monetary thing.

02:29:52   It wasn't this, this is all conceived before we even had membership. It's

02:29:57   basically what do I hope people get from listening to ATP, which can be turned to say,

02:30:04   why should somebody listen to ATP? Like, you know what I mean? And it's going to sound like an ad

02:30:10   pitch, but really it's like, from my perspective, what do I think I'm doing here? Like, what am I

02:30:15   trying to accomplish? What, like, what do I think this, this show is producing? And I think that

02:30:21   at episode 400, which is an arbitrary milestone, but it's been a lot of years and it was a good

02:30:26   time to reflect on that. And maybe if, you know, we'll see if there's a huge mismatch between what

02:30:32   I hope I'm, what I'm hoping to give to people listening and what they're actually getting, but

02:30:36   here we are, episode 400. We do occasionally get emails from people who say that they use our show

02:30:41   as part of their sleep timer routine, that they fall asleep to it. And I think, I don't think

02:30:47   they're saying it to be me. I think it's actually a compliment, but it's definitely one of those

02:30:51   like mixed conflicts. Like, is that a compliment? It's going to give them weird dreams though,

02:30:56   for sure. I mean, maybe that's, maybe that's what you want. I don't know. I mean, Casey uses it for

02:31:02   the same purpose as we learned a couple of shows ago, where he kept saying, why is it that turning

02:31:07   off the lights helps? He's like, it's getting me ready for sleep. It's like, you don't want to be

02:31:12   sleepy during the show. So why are you trying to make yourself as sleepy as possible when we're

02:31:17   recording the podcast? So you're closer to complete sleep when the podcast ends. That means during the

02:31:23   show, you're getting closer and closer to sleep. And we don't want that. Do you not want that? I

02:31:28   think you might want that. Anyway, that is not one of the things. So here, what do people get from

02:31:34   the, what do I hope me personally, not Marco, not Casey, they can have her own answers. So like I

02:31:38   said, no answer at all. What do I hope people get from listening to ACP? It's got three things.

02:31:42   There's like a keynote slide here and they're kind of in priority order, but anyway, the number one

02:31:49   thing that I hope people get from listening to ATP, I don't think most people would guess window

02:31:55   management tips. No, but you're close entertainment, entertainment, which is like, well, what do you

02:32:03   mean? Like that's your number one thing. You want to give people entertainment. That's nothing to

02:32:07   do with tech. That has nothing to do with anything. Why do you, why are you trying to, you know,

02:32:12   entertainment is the most important thing that I hope this podcast provides. Now, granted,

02:32:17   it's a weird kind of entertainment that appeals to only people who are tech nerds and into tech

02:32:21   stuff. Right. But everything else that I'm going to talk about, the other two things,

02:32:26   none of that matters if people aren't motivated to keep listening and most people are not motivated

02:32:31   enough by that other stuff to keep listening without it being entertaining. So the number

02:32:36   one thing I hope I am delivering on the show that we collectively are delivering to listeners

02:32:42   is entertaining you. And like I said, it's a weird kind of entertainment. We're not telling jokes.

02:32:46   It's not a song and dance or whatever. It's entertaining. It's us talking about a particular

02:32:51   set of topics in what we hope, what I hope is an entertaining way. Number two, this is the easy

02:32:58   one information. Obviously listening to a tech show should result in you knowing more about tech

02:33:05   than someone who doesn't listen to a tech show, especially a tech show. That's so long.

02:33:10   There's lots of information here. Right. And the main effect in people's lives I wanted to have is

02:33:16   when something dramatic happens in the regions, the things that we talk about. Oh, hey, did you

02:33:22   hear they're changing the processors in Macs? And when you hear that from your friend, because they

02:33:27   saw it on CNN or whatever, or they found out when they went into an Apple store and someone tried to

02:33:32   start asking them a question about Intel and they didn't know what they were talking about,

02:33:35   Macs have new processors now? It's the same ones they have on the phone. By the time you

02:33:40   hear that from someone in the outside world, if you're an ATP listener, you've been hearing about

02:33:44   our Macs for like three years, four years, right? You've heard about it so much that you're sick of

02:33:49   the topic, right? You've heard it from every angle. You've heard about like the pros and cons, and if

02:33:55   it's feasible and what the trade-offs might be and what the timing might be and just on and on and on.

02:34:00   You are more informed about this particular subject area than somebody who doesn't listen

02:34:05   to the show. Similarly for things like the Mac Pro or like the whole problem with Apple and its

02:34:10   Pro Macs. Arguably, the show was founded on the problem of the Pro Mac. Remember the original logo

02:34:16   with the cheese grater Mac Pro with the new label because they had introduced a "new Mac Pro" that

02:34:21   wasn't really that new. More like, what's the deal with this? Are they still making professional

02:34:25   Macs or whatever? That seems weird and not of a very sort of narrow interest, but fast forward

02:34:33   a handful of years and the biggest company in the world is having this important roundtable meeting

02:34:39   to describe how they're changing the direction of the company to address essentially the same

02:34:43   problem that we had identified in the founding of the show. If you listen to the show, this is not

02:34:48   a surprise to you. What is this Mac roundtable about? Who cares about Pro Macs? What? Again,

02:34:52   you would have heard about it, you know, for literal years from many different angles. You

02:34:58   will be informed, more informed than if you didn't listen to the show about all sorts of things that

02:35:04   are going on in the tech industry. And the final one is probably the most touchy-feely, maybe after

02:35:08   entertainment, is insight. So there's being entertaining in whatever way that we manage to

02:35:14   be entertaining. You know, I'm glad that people find any part of entertaining, but I'm trying,

02:35:18   right? There's the information, which is easy to convey. You can get that from anywhere. You can

02:35:23   read a website, you can, you know, read a tech magazine, you can just follow people on Twitter,

02:35:27   you get information other ways. What do we have to offer besides just that information being spewed

02:35:32   out and rehashing and, you know, just talking about news of the day is insight. What does some

02:35:38   hardware or software feature mean for the future of the user experience? How is the industry

02:35:43   landscape changing? How does change in one tech sector affect some other tech sector? You know,

02:35:49   what does Silicon Fab achievements have to do with what you end up being able to buy in the store?

02:35:54   The gaming market versus App Store, streaming services versus Apple TV versus Apple TV Plus,

02:35:59   right? Changes to the core operating system and the features they affect. Yes, that includes

02:36:03   file systems, right? New security features, new languages and APIs. Like, insight that we can

02:36:08   provide because of who we are and our experience and what we know. We're software developers,

02:36:13   we've, you know, some of us have sold software for a long time. We've worked in the industry,

02:36:18   we know people in the industry, we can not just tell you, "here's the information, but here is

02:36:22   some insight about it. What does this mean? What does this technology or this change or this news

02:36:27   story actually going to, what is it going to change in the world or in my life today and in the future?"

02:36:34   So that's it. Three things that I hope I'm delivering with ATP that I hope we are collectively

02:36:38   delivering. Entertainment, information and insight. If the three of you think we're delivering, like,

02:36:43   something entirely different, then maybe we're working at cross purposes. But this is what I

02:36:47   think that we are providing to people over 400 episodes or trying to anyway. No, I think that

02:36:55   that's completely reasonable and I think I agree with all of it. And I think as possibly the most

02:37:01   touchy-feely of the three of us, I think it is important to recognize how incredibly lucky the

02:37:06   three of us are that we have an excuse to talk to our good friends, you know, once a week and then

02:37:11   we can actually, you know, make money off of that, which is super cool. And I mean, think about where

02:37:17   all of us were on February 7th, 2013, as we record seven years, eight months and seven days ago.

02:37:25   Like that is a long time. And we have put out an episode of ATP every single week for seven years,

02:37:33   eight months and seven days. And that's something that's extremely important to us. And it's

02:37:38   something that I think that we are extraordinarily, extraordinarily lucky to be able to do. And the

02:37:45   fact that anyone listens to us, especially at this point in the 17 hour long episode,

02:37:50   it is incredible to me that anyone listens to all three of us. And we are so incredibly lucky to any

02:37:58   of you who listen, whether or not you're a member, whether or not you have purchased anything from

02:38:03   any of our advertisers, we're just extremely lucky to have you. And I hope that we're growing as

02:38:10   people over this time, the three of us. I mean, certainly when I started recording this with you

02:38:15   two fine gentlemen, I was not yet an iOS developer. I was not yet a dad. I was a different human being

02:38:24   seven years ago. And I don't mean that in a bad way at all. It's just, I was in a very different

02:38:28   place in life. And now, you know, I'm much, much, much closer to 40 than I am 30. And in 2013,

02:38:36   what was I 30? I was not even 31 yet. I was just shy of 31 at that point. So it has been quite

02:38:45   a journey. And I agree with what you said, Jon. And I just wanted to take this one quick moment to

02:38:50   say thank you to anyone who has ever listened to us, who continues to listen to us. It is genuinely

02:38:56   been one of the great honors and pleasures of my life to be a part of this with the two of you

02:39:00   fine gentlemen. And I pinch myself regularly because I cannot believe this is my life. So

02:39:07   thank you to all of you, to the two of you and to all of you. Yeah. And I like, the reason I wanted

02:39:12   to talk about this is like, what do I hope people get from it is not to toot our own horn, although

02:39:17   episode 400 is some way of celebrating at the very least our longevity as they say in the recent

02:39:23   incomparable celebration episode quantity. We definitely have quantity. We did miss one week

02:39:27   in the first year, I believe, somehow doing scheduling snafu we had a skipped week, but

02:39:31   wasn't that one we did? I don't think so. Yeah. I don't think we did. The very, very first month,

02:39:36   go look at the gaps between episodes like one, two, three, and four. There's like a two week gap

02:39:40   in one of them. Oh, well that, okay. So that doesn't count. Yeah. Cause we didn't really,

02:39:44   we didn't really embrace it until like March or April. Thank you very much. Yeah. And episode

02:39:47   one was like a half episode because it was like an after show of neutral. Yeah. But we've done 52

02:39:53   episodes a year, right? So we've done quantity, but like, I'm not trying to say like, this is

02:39:57   how awesome we are. I'm saying this is what I personally am trying to do. And it sounds like

02:40:02   Casey is more or less on the same page. It's like, this is what we are trying to do to the

02:40:07   extent that we are able to succeed enough to get people to continue to listen to the show.

02:40:12   We are all eternally grateful. Like, but, but that's, that's what we're trying to do. Right.

02:40:16   And I don't know who this is for. Maybe it's just for me to say out loud, or maybe it's just for me

02:40:20   to express what I'm always thinking when I'm trying to do this or just to explain. And maybe

02:40:25   it's just to hear from people to say, that's not what I'm getting from your show at all. I just,

02:40:28   it helps my iguana go to sleep. Like I don't even know, like, well, honestly, whatever value you're

02:40:33   getting out of it, thank you. Thank you for listening. That's great. But here, when I'm

02:40:37   doing the show, I'm trying to entertain, inform and provide some measure of insight.

02:40:42   You know, the way I listen to podcasts, you know, I've been a heavy podcast listener since before

02:40:48   we did the show for years beforehand. And, and there's always been two kinds of podcasts with me.

02:40:56   There's the kind of bigger mass market shows that you listen to for either like news value or for,

02:41:07   you know, quote, storytelling. And this would be, you know, the big popular, like public radio style

02:41:11   shows, some, you know, some of the very first big podcasts like This American Life, you know,

02:41:15   that kind of stuff. And, and, or, or, you know, shows that are very focused on news,

02:41:21   things like The Daily or like a lot of the Slate shows, you know, like news shows.

02:41:26   And those I listen to a little bit of, I listen to almost none of them because what I really am into

02:41:36   with podcasts is the other world of podcasts. That's not primarily information driven. It's

02:41:43   primarily people driven. And when I listen to most of the shows I listen to, many of them are the

02:41:50   shows that, you know, many of the listeners listen to, like, you know, John Gruber's show.

02:41:53   The shows I listen to are usually about the people on them. Like there is so much more about the

02:42:02   people than about the topics they're talking about. And so in John's categorization, that would be the

02:42:08   entertainment side of things being number one. To me, that is number one. And, but it goes beyond

02:42:13   just entertainment as it's like, it isn't just like, you know, comedy hour. It's like, no, these

02:42:18   are people who I consider my friends. And some of them are my actual friends in real life. Many of

02:42:25   them aren't. And I just feel like, I just feel this great human connection to them because I get

02:42:29   to know them. And, you know, I tell people who want to know about podcasting or who want to start a

02:42:34   podcast, they're looking at Gruber audience or they just want to know how it works. I always tell them

02:42:38   that like the subject matter is usually what gets people in the door. But what keeps people there

02:42:47   is the people and the host of the show, the chemistry they have with each other,

02:42:53   their personalities, they show off to the world. I listen to Merlin Mann and John Roderick talk

02:43:00   more than I talk to most of my friends. I talk to the two of you guys and to the 100,000 people

02:43:07   listening in the audience indirectly more than like I talk to like my own mother or my sister.

02:43:14   And it's crazy to me to think that, but like podcasting is so much about people and it's

02:43:21   about that connection you feel to the hosts. It's about how much you enjoy having them talk

02:43:25   to each other and talking to you. And so to have this show go for this long and to have succeeded

02:43:33   so much so far and with more to go like this, to be clear, we're not ending the show. We're just

02:43:41   celebrating 400. No one was thinking that until you said it. Why did you have to do that?

02:43:44   Well, it's hard to talk about this kind of stuff without it sounding like it's an ending.

02:43:49   It's the end we go 400 more. Yeah. No, but then when we get to 800, everyone's like,

02:43:54   is this it? Oh my God. Then we do 800 more. You said it years ago. Very easy sequence.

02:43:58   Anyway, point is I'm really honored and thankful for our audience that you seem to really like us

02:44:07   because otherwise you wouldn't listen to the show just for the information because

02:44:10   while we have some information, we also BS a lot and we will occasionally get an email from

02:44:21   somebody who's like, you should stick to tech. Why did you talk about this thing for 10 minutes?

02:44:26   And whenever I get one of those emails, again, this isn't frequent. I think we've driven most

02:44:30   of those people away by now, but whenever I get one, I think like, have you ever heard the show?

02:44:36   How far have you made it? I often think like, is this person, is this their very first episode

02:44:42   they've heard that they're not complaining that we don't just stick to tech? Cause it has to be.

02:44:46   Cause like anybody who wants us to just be an information dump, you're going to be

02:44:51   disappointed pretty quickly because that isn't what we do. We do some segments that are information

02:44:58   filled, surrounded by a bunch of BS that almost goofing around with each other or we're calling

02:45:04   it entertainment now, Margo, not BS. Right. Yes. Thanks. But like the point is like our show is

02:45:11   a lot more than just the information. It always has been and it always will be.

02:45:17   And people who want just pure information, there's a lot of other tech shows that'll give you that.

02:45:22   You don't need us for that. And you probably shouldn't use just us for that.

02:45:28   You come here for us. And for that, I am eternally grateful because it's such an honor

02:45:35   that so many people want to listen to ours of us BSing with each other. That's fantastic.

02:45:41   And I, I'm just so happy about that. And I'm very thankful for that.

02:45:44   [BEEPING]