398: The State of Your Baby


00:00:00   everything is a miss in my world right now. Well not a miss. Different. Just your world. Yeah. So, first of all, Aaron is having an outdoor socially distant book club meeting right now. So there's a very slim chance I might need to run away during the recording.

00:00:19   But more pertinently... To go like give your thoughts on the book? Yeah, exactly right. No, in case one of the kids wakes up which is extremely rare for them. But you never know what could happen.

00:00:28   What did you think was the theme of the book? I don't even remember what book it was she was reading. But nevertheless... I don't even remember what themes mean.

00:00:35   But more pertinently, as Marco better than anyone knows, I have had very sporadic problems with my genuinely beloved USB Pre 2.

00:00:47   And every great once in a while, it will... I can't figure out a more descriptive technical term than glitch out, which is neither descriptive nor technical.

00:00:58   But every great once in a while it will glitch out to the point that the only way to get it to work properly is to unplug it and then plug it back in. Like take out the USB connector and plug it back in.

00:01:09   Which in of itself, from my perspective, is not a big deal because it takes all but a moment for everything to write itself and everything's good to go. But from Marco's perspective, it is a very, very different discussion.

00:01:21   Because everything becomes two to three to four to five times harder. And so we've been talking about this, Marco and I, on and off over god knows how long.

00:01:30   And somebody, I don't think it was Marco, but somebody had said, you know, I had a bunch of XLR cables and the USB cable kind of all intertwined with each other.

00:01:41   And perhaps some sort of interference has caused that issue. Or caused a similar issue.

00:01:47   And I don't think that's actually the problem. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's not the problem.

00:01:52   But in an effort to make Marco's life ever so slightly easier, those handful of times each year that this happens, I have taken my microphone and shifted it from the right side of the desk to the left.

00:02:03   Which is like sleeping on the wrong side of the bed. Everything is backwards now. I don't know what to do with it.

00:02:07   And the reason I did that is because on the USB Pre 2, the USB comes in on the right hand side, the XLR cables come in the left hand side.

00:02:13   And so my thought was I will move all the XLR stuff to the left hand side of the desk. It had previously been on the right.

00:02:18   Leave the USB stuff on the right hand side of the desk, which is to say it's like a 3 foot USB CD, USB whatever cable.

00:02:25   And never the two shall meet. And I don't know if it's going to make a darn bit of difference. Smart Money says it won't. But I'm trying.

00:02:32   Yeah, I'm going to guess no on that.

00:02:34   Same here.

00:02:35   Which is funny. I actually, today was desk reconstruction day for me.

00:02:39   Oh, interesting. So both of us then.

00:02:41   Yeah, mine was for a different reason. I'm at the beach, had to get a desk and I got like, basically I made the wrong choice on a certain type of frame.

00:02:52   And it was the kind of frame that like, it frames the desk on the front and back underneath with metal framing.

00:02:59   So that way your leg hits the front, your knee hits the metal framing because it isn't only like in the midsection or back the way they usually do it with like the little U shaped legs.

00:03:08   And, because my thinking was, I don't like how most desks that have like the like T or kind of offset T or C shaped legs, if you tap the front lip of the desk, the whole thing kind of rocks a little bit.

00:03:22   And like your screen might even vibrate or shake with every tap that you make.

00:03:26   And I thought this is, you know, not ideal. I had like, you know, some inexpensive IKEA desk before that did this.

00:03:33   So I thought, let me get a four legged desk that should ideally solve this problem instead of just having like the two C shaped or T shaped ones.

00:03:41   If you just have four legs, then it should make it much more stable. And it turns out it did. It worked in that sense.

00:03:47   That it was indeed way more stable and it was basically like a rock. You could tap it and like your screen wouldn't shake at all.

00:03:55   The downside was that it had that like rectangular, fully rectangular frame that my legs would hit constantly. And literally every single time I like approached and tucked under the desk, every single time I hit my knee on that thing.

00:04:09   Observant listeners might say, why don't you just raise the desk? Good question. In fact, it was a standing desk, so I could raise it to whatever height I wanted.

00:04:17   The problem is, if you raise the desk like an extra two inches, the keyboard's too tall and it's bad for ergonomics.

00:04:24   So, because ideally what you want is a zero thickness desk. Like I know it's not realistic, but you want the thinnest possible desk. That way you can have enough space under it for your legs and maybe a bent knee or two.

00:04:35   But you don't want the keyboard to be higher than it needs to be. You basically want to be like, you want the desk to be as thin as possible so that you can achieve that ergonomic and comfort ideal.

00:04:47   Keyboard tray. Lisa needs braces.

00:04:50   Keyboard tray.

00:04:52   How does a keyboard tray not make this problem mostly worse?

00:04:56   I mean, it gives you a specific plane just for your keyboard that is lower than your desk. So you can get the desk up out of the way and still have the keyboard at maximum like lowness to your legs, essentially.

00:05:08   Without you hitting whatever. I'm trying to visualize what the structure of your desk looks like, but if it's just like a bar that sticks out from the bottom of your desk a couple of inches, this would get it out of your way.

00:05:18   Because you would raise the desk so that the bar is clearing, but the keyboard tray is like two or three inches down. Lots of keyboard trays are adjustable in height so that it can be any number of inches away from the bottom surface of your desk.

00:05:31   And then you'd sort of arrange those two things independently.

00:05:34   Yeah, I guess I see what you mean.

00:05:36   But the key feature of the keyboard tray is it gives you a big spot in your desk to put stuff. And that is the main reason. Obviously I do it for ergonomics because I bought my desk before standing desks were really popular and my desk is not adjusted at all, right?

00:05:48   But I would never be able to give up having just empty desk space in front of me where I can put things.

00:05:54   Well, how deep of a desk do you run? Because there's basically the 24-inch class and the 30-inch class of depth that tend to be widely available.

00:06:02   Maybe I'm at 36. I can't even reach the back of my desk.

00:06:06   Deep?

00:06:07   Yeah, it's very deep.

00:06:08   Oh my god. Yeah, I tried the 24s in previous beach arrangements. I'll get something small because it's just vacation. And I was never happy with 24s.

00:06:19   Even in previous apartments where I didn't have a lot of space, I would occasionally have a 24-inch desk. It was never enough depth for me. And so I've been 30 for a while now and I have no regrets.

00:06:29   But anyway, so I didn't think of keyboard tray. I still don't think that's my style. I do like a very clean, basic look, minimalist kind of arrangement here.

00:06:40   So anyway, I had to switch from the four-legged desk, which is now being repurposed as a workbench in a different location.

00:06:49   And now I have a two-legged desk once again and the wobbliness is back, but it is less severe than the inexpensive IKEA desk.

00:06:57   And anyway, I had to redo everything. And so to get back to how I brought this up in a very random way, sorry Casey.

00:07:02   I too, during my desk rearrangement, I had an issue with my audio interface. I was getting electrical noise in my recordings.

00:07:12   And I did all sorts of stuff. I plugged in different things, tried different cables, tried different arrangements, different settings.

00:07:20   I even eventually tried a whole different interface to the microphone and I was still getting this electrical noise in my recordings.

00:07:27   And I eventually traced it back. It took me almost a whole day to figure out the problem.

00:07:32   I eventually traced it to one of the cables I was using was running. It had some excess.

00:07:39   I had coiled up the excess, so there was a small bundle of XLR cable, and I had tucked it in a spot on the underside of the desk that ran next to a network cable.

00:07:50   And apparently it was getting interference from the network cable running past a bundle of XLR cable.

00:07:58   Because when you bundle it up, it basically passes the same cable five or six times at least.

00:08:03   So any interference potential is probably amplified, right? And XLR cables are inherently balanced.

00:08:10   And they actually do a really good job of rejecting lots of noise, but apparently not the kind of noise that running a perpendicular network cable past it generates.

00:08:19   And literally this whole day I was spending trying to get my interface to not have noise on it.

00:08:24   And I literally had to just move this bundle of cable like four inches away from where it was and the problem disappeared completely.

00:08:34   Analog electronics suck. Indeed that's what we learned. That's the reason we invented digital.

00:08:40   Just tell me if it's a one or a zero. Lots of leeway there. Analog is a go. Every little thing that changes my signal.

00:08:47   Well, and it was going to the box that does that, but it has to be analog at some point.

00:08:52   Oh, I know. You want it to be, I feel like in the computer world, at least in my computer world, I want the analog stuff to be as short as possible.

00:09:02   Stay digital as long as you can. Stay gold pony boy. Stay digital signal.

00:09:07   And then, yes, inevitably at some point it needs to become analog for human brains to hear it and for human mouths to influence it.

00:09:13   But then get right back into digital as fast as you can. And you had analog stuff just swirling in circles underneath your desk, underneath the network cable.

00:09:20   Yeah, that was, that was a big mistake, turns out. But I have rectified the issue and with my new desk set up, I not only have my knee not hitting the frame because it's the right kind of frame now again, but I also did a total like organizational change where I actually, I'm very happy with this new desk, the one that's not four legged.

00:09:38   I will, I will pimp the company. It's an uplift desk. I'm very happy with our cable management stuff. It's under the desk.

00:09:44   I got a search strip that mounts under the desk and it mounts so that the plugs don't face down, they face back. So they don't intrude in the foot space.

00:09:55   Because I'm also like, I'm a, I'm a like subwoofer foot rest person now. So I don't want a lot of stuff hanging down from the desk because then when I lean back and put my feet on the subwoofer, my feet will hit the cords and possibly pull them out.

00:10:06   Is that because your feet don't reach the ground?

00:10:08   So anyway, no, it's just an adorable image I have in my head of your little swing in your feet is all you know, part of the reason that I, that I have a standing desk is not necessarily because I frequently raise and lower it.

00:10:24   It's because I can set a standing desk to a lower height than most fixed leg desk. Almost all fixed leg desks are either they are like some of the IKEA adjustable ones, which again, I've been using those for years, but I wanted something a little more sturdy, a little more heavy duty.

00:10:39   But almost everything that's not IKEA is a fixed height and it makes the desk roughly 29 inches tall. And that is too tall for me.

00:10:46   My preferred setting on the uplift desk is 27.4. It's like an inch and a half lower than almost all regular desks have as their fixed height.

00:10:56   And that because what I want is for my feet to be resting on the ground at regular sitting height. So like you could just jack the chair up, be at full height and have your feet dangling at the bottom or you can get a desk that you can set at the right height so your feet can be on the floor and you can lower the desk to meet you.

00:11:12   So that's the biggest reason I have a standing desk is to have easy, precise control over the actual desktop height and occasionally to raise it to stand it up.

00:11:23   And it's also really nice if you are going under it to like wire something, it's really nice to lift it up first and go under it while it's in the high position. So much easier to do stuff under there.

00:11:33   Anyway, I've been very impressed with uplift and this desk and all the cable management stuff. I did something similar to Casey where I have all the analog stuff is now on one side of the desk.

00:11:43   And on the other side of the desk, I actually had previously had another issue with analog interference with one of those big like mid cable power supply things where you have like the three prong cable to the blob and blob to a DC cable to the device.

00:11:57   Those big bricks or even the wall warts that go directly on the outlets, those are frequently the source of interference if you run analog cables near them because they're usually pieces of crap.

00:12:07   And they have lots of interference components in them. And so what I have now is the left side of the underside of my desk has a giant mounted surge strip on the inside of the desk.

00:12:20   There's a big cable management rectangle blob thing that can hold up a bunch of stuff. So I put all the power adapters for everything in there.

00:12:29   And that's all on the left side. And then all the audio cables, all the analog stuff is on the right side of the desk.

00:12:34   And they have these cool magnetic channel things that you can stick to the legs and run the cables down them. It's so great.

00:12:41   Anyway, I'm a big fan of the uplift desk and in particular their cable management stuff.

00:12:46   And honestly, this is the nicest standing desk I've ever used with the control panel and everything. I haven't used that many. I've used I think four now.

00:12:55   But it's a very nice one. So I can hardly recommend uplift. They aren't a sponsor. I'm just recommending them.

00:12:59   Anyway, but don't get the four legged one. The four legged one is not at all the right idea for leg comfort.

00:13:07   Sturdy as it was, not the right idea for leg comfort. Get the C-leg.

00:13:11   Yeah, they have a four legged standing desk. That's what I'm looking at. It has a glass top too. So maybe Casey would like it. Or is it a glass top? Or is that just showing me a transparent top where you can pick your material?

00:13:19   There is a frame only option. But don't get the four legged one if you care about the knee comfort thing like I do.

00:13:24   It was incredibly strong. But I'm going to be yeah, that's that's being repurposed as a standing workstation. Like in like the garage area where we can like, you know, use it as a workbench.

00:13:34   My one complaint about the traditional now traditional standing desk is we, you know, over the past few years, my work back when we went into the office, like everything was converted to these standing desks and look a lot like these, I guess they all kind of look the same.

00:13:46   But you know, similar design is the stupid control panel that sort of is on an angle on the right or left side. And it sticks down a little bit, which isn't that big a deal.

00:13:56   And it makes sense like well, where else would you put it, but in an office environment where very often, you're given, it's kind of like having cubicles, but no cubicles think I've described this scenario before when you had a cubicle, at least you had walls that defined your tiny little veal pen that you spend your day in an open office plan, you don't have the walls.

00:14:15   So if you want any space for yourself, you have to claim it somehow. And like, part of part of that is if you have any kind of furniture, like a, usually like a rolling to drawer filing cabinet where you can put stuff.

00:14:31   You have to fit that within your little claimed area. And one way to do that is to take some piece of furniture and slide it under one side of your desk. And like you said, Marco, like being able to lower the desk down is important, especially if you don't have a keyboard tray.

00:14:45   But if you do that, then that little that one stupid little control panel makes it so you can't slide the filing cabinet underneath it, or you can slide it, but now it's trapped in one of the drawers hits it and I just, I just wish those controls are flush or something or movable or whatever they just, there was always annoyed me that no matter what you do,

00:15:00   it always annoyed me that no matter what style of standing desk we got the controls were always like that and always on the wrong side that you wanted them on like, Oh, I wanted my filing cabinet left. Well, that's where the controls are. So tough luck. You got to put it on the right.

00:15:10   Well, this one you you have to assemble the desk and when you assemble it, you can pick either side to put the control panel on.

00:15:16   You have to be in the union to assemble the desk in the working world. Sorry, you can't assemble the desk yourself. No, I would go in there and off hours with I bring my power drill and stuff and just like when no one's in the office, I'd just be under there. You know, I mounted my own keyboard tray in a succession of desks by drilling the holes myself when nobody was in the office. I just thought about that the other day. What are my desk is like, I think I left a pair of my headphones. I think I left the pair of phones that you gave me as a present at one point. I think those are still in the office.

00:15:43   You should go back and claim them. Speaking of what headphones are you using tonight? Still the old ones I have I got I didn't place some orders for new pads. One of the orders came not the one not the real one that I eventually got the right one the marker recommended.

00:15:58   I messed this up. This is my fault. So when I when I was speaking in the episode, I gave the part number for the good pads as EDT 1770. It's actually EDT 1770 D. I gave the right one in the show notes. I caught this error like as I was running this as I was checking the show notes and I corrected it in the show notes, but the audio so like the number I said out loud was wrong. So sorry, anybody ordered the wrong one. Hopefully me. Yeah, John was one of those people. So yeah, I owe john like 36 euros.

00:16:25   Yeah, well anyway, I ordered the right one. Who knows what's gonna come because that a stock but I also ordered like a knockoff. It's like fake leather plus memory foam. And they're not really the right size for the 1770s. But they fit because you know, these things are loosey goosey, you know, so I put them on today. I'm not sure if I'm gonna switch over to them still wearing the old ones for now, but they're, they're ready to go. Maybe I'll try them out next episode. We'll see.

00:16:49   We should start with a final check on what the status is with the St. Jude fundraiser. And if you recall, we've been talking about this all month because September is childhood cancer awareness month as we record it is still strictly speaking September for another couple of hours. So hey, if you wanted to just eat in right at the nick of time, feel free to go to st. Jude.org slash ATP. But I wanted to genuinely thank everyone for having sent so much money

00:17:18   to St. Jude. It is really incredible how much money they and we raised. And the original goal was $315,000, which is not something to shake your stick out. That's a serious amount of money. And as of 9/18 in the evening, tonight, which is Wednesday, the 30th of September, $445,975.03, which is ridiculous.

00:17:47   I am extremely proud of the ATP and relay communities. Thank you to anyone who has donated. It is worth noting that I did. We do we still have the new leader on the leaderboard as far as I'm aware, the very large leader. Yes. So someone who wrote their name as for Evelyn, I am not kidding. As of the time we are recording anyway, we believe this to be valid donated $50,000, which is absurd and incredible. And oh, my goodness.

00:18:15   So if you happen to be that person and want to send me a receipt, I will send you stickers and something else. I don't even know what, but I'll find something and send it your way. And to be clear, we don't actually know if this was an ATP listener or a relay listener. Yeah, they didn't they didn't use an asterisk, which from this point forward will be the way that people indicate.

00:18:34   No asterisk in the name makes us assume that maybe it's just a very generous person who came in through the main relay fund drive. But if by chance you are an ATP listener and you want some stickers, $50,000 will do it. That is that is the low low cost of a handful of ATP stickers. Do you think maybe maybe that might buy two handfuls? Maybe Yeah, actually, we can we can probably arrange that. But But really, thank you to everyone who donated. We all all three of us and the broader, you know, relay community all really, really, really appreciate it.

00:19:03   And it is very kind of you. And we will stop badgering about badgering you about this until next year. See you next year. 500k next year. We're gonna do it. We can do it. All right. Anonymous writes in on some thoughts with regard to Sony's digital versus plastic disc profits. John, take it away.

00:19:19   This is in regards to discussion the past couple weeks about digital versus optical disc games and the different profits that the game makers and Sony may or may not make depending on what the retailer cut and the different prices of the consoles and all that good stuff. This is Yeah, this is an anonymous source who presumably would know. The source says, when developers press optical discs, Sony makes them use its own factories and pay for shipping, paper printing, etc. So all the overhead gets paid for by the game.

00:19:48   So all the overhead gets passed on to the developers. After that digital or disc Sony still gets 30%. This reminds me of the old cartridge days when Nintendo would always make you pay for Nintendo to manufacture the cartridge for you. So they got some profit margin on the manufacturing of the game, then they sold the game. And then they got some margin on that because you have to pay Nintendo's percentage of your game sales. So this is saying is that Sony makes you use Sony factories to make the optical discs. And of course, Sony gets a profit on that they don't do it for you at cost.

00:20:17   Which potentially makes the disc games more profitable than digital. And this person is also saying that whether it's digital or not, Sony still takes 30%. And so I guess it's just the developer and the retailer fighting it out for the remaining 70%.

00:20:33   So it's not entirely clear, at least in the case of Sony who presumably has large factories that make optical discs, whether or not digital is actually more profitable for Sony than the plastic versions.

00:20:47   It also sounds a lot like the record business. Back in the awful peak of it in the 90s where they just, I don't know if they still do this, I assume they do, but it's just less relevant now. But all the things they would charge the bands for, like producing the CDs and everything, they really would just destroy, just screw the bands over at every possible angle. This sounds a lot like that.

00:21:09   And I don't think this is exclusive to Sony. I think this kind of thing has always been commonplace in the game industry, like in the game console industry. But yeah, it just seems like they just screwed the developer at every possible opportunity.

00:21:23   The difference is in this case that Sony legitimately has a reason to own optical disc factories. I'm certain in Microsoft's case they would say, "Oh, well, Microsoft has to pay someone to make optical discs," and then they pass that cost on to the developer. But in this case, Sony already has factories making optical discs for its other businesses. And so it's like, "Look, we already own the factory, so we're going to make our profit the way we..."

00:21:47   I think the person who sent this tip described it as Sony getting its customers to pay to keep the lights on in its factories, because if someone is manufacturing optical discs, then those factories are not making any money, and optical discs are going to become much less popular, the one place they're still kind of hanging on.

00:22:05   They're pretty much out of favor in music, but in video games, it's kind of their last stronghold, although obviously that's slowly shifting to digital.

00:22:12   Moving along, Google's carbon-free plant.

00:22:17   No, no, you've got to skip back on it. I figured you'd look back, but you didn't. You skipped on Shorty, right above the Dave Mays thing.

00:22:22   Ah, fluffers, I'm sorry.

00:22:24   Fluffers?

00:22:25   Oh, sorry, that's a listism. Because I couldn't say... I can't say...

00:22:31   Did you get some fluffers in your sleepy shirt?

00:22:34   I guess I did. So, here we go. The etymology, is that the word I'm looking for? The history of this is that I can't swear like a sailor in front of my children, even though that's my natural state of being.

00:22:46   And so, Aaron and I both, I don't know which one of us came up with this first, but we started saying fluffernutters, which I think is actually a sandwich, if I'm not mistaken.

00:22:54   Sure is.

00:22:55   It sounds vaguely like a f***. It has that nice satisfying F in the beginning. And so we would say, "Oh, fluffernutters!" And that would be kid-friendly. And then that got shortened to, "Oh, fluffers."

00:23:06   Which is not as kid-friendly, but the kids don't know that, and apparently neither do you and Aaron.

00:23:11   Oh, God, what am I walking into right now?

00:23:14   Don't worry about it.

00:23:15   Oh, God.

00:23:16   And other possible alternatives that I think are more widely popular than fluffers would be Frack from Ballistoc Galactica, which I think you know, right? Or Fuddruckers, the restaurant.

00:23:29   Actually, fun fact. Marco, I don't know if you recall, but that barbecue place we took you to with that huge-ass fan in the ceiling, that actually used to be a Fuddruckers.

00:23:36   It's called a big-ass fan, Casey. That's a brand name.

00:23:39   Is there a hyphen or no?

00:23:41   No, there isn't a hyphen, and I think there should be.

00:23:44   Is it all one word?

00:23:45   No, it's big-space, ass-space fans.

00:23:47   Well, they just don't understand grammar, which doesn't surprise me.

00:23:50   Oh, fluffer, right. Oh, right, right. I saw the Wikipedia link, and when it was not pluralized, I realized the error in my ways. Right. Well, here we are.

00:24:02   We are sponsored this week by Customer.io. Are you ready to supercharge your marketing tech stack?

00:24:09   Tech-savvy marketers choose Customer.io for their email marketing and automations for its simple API and easy-to-use interface.

00:24:16   Using its segmentation engine, you can target your audience by who they are, what they do, always updated in real time.

00:24:23   You can automate your emails, notifications, text messages, even direct mail. Any kind of crazy campaign you have in mind is possible with Customer.io.

00:24:32   And if you're trying to stitch data together between different systems, Customer.io's workflow and webhooks action can automate any operational headache you might have.

00:24:40   You can stand out to your users by sending smarter, better-timed, and more personalized messages that show your brand in the best possible light.

00:24:49   And with industry-leading customer support, if you need it, you will have dependable help right there whenever you need to.

00:24:55   So go to Customer.io/ATP to schedule a personalized demo to see how you can improve your messaging.

00:25:04   Be sure to mention that you heard about Customer.io from Accidental Tech Podcast, so you can go from your first campaign to your best campaign faster with Customer.io.

00:25:14   That's Customer.io/ATP. Thank you to Customer.io for sponsoring our show.

00:25:24   So we talked last week, maybe the week before, about how Apple had the very curious policy of you needing to return the entire watch and band combination if you have a poorly fitting solo loop.

00:25:36   And after quite a bit of outcry, which was to be expected, hey, guess what? They changed their minds on that.

00:25:42   And so now you can actually return just the band and not the entire watch band combination.

00:25:48   I haven't seen anything personally about the mechanisms by which this happens, particularly via mail, but supposedly it is a thing that you can do now.

00:25:56   Yeah, this is good. I'm very glad they fixed this. It is kind of weird that it ever happened in the first place.

00:26:02   I think this was the kind of thing where some part of the process kind of fell down.

00:26:07   Because it's common sense that when you sell a fixed length band as part of a non-separately returnable bundle with the watch, of course there's going to be a bunch of returns, especially in a year where it's really hard for a lot of people to go to stores.

00:26:21   This was kind of an unforced error, I think. They should have fixed this issue in their operations chain before they launched on afterwards.

00:26:29   But I'm very glad they fixed it. I don't know how easy it is to swap the bands. And a topic that we will get to in a little bit maybe is, so my son's Apple watch came, the SE that Reid decided to try.

00:26:41   Oh yeah.

00:26:42   And I will talk about that in a little bit. But basically, of course the band was one size too big.

00:26:47   And it turns out he actually likes wearing it loose, so we're wearing it that way anyway. And I ordered the smaller band to compare.

00:26:53   But I think the way that sizing tool was initially guiding us to use it, I think a lot of people ordered bands that were one or two sizes too big.

00:27:02   They must have been getting a ton of returns to deal with. And so it's good that they've made this process better.

00:27:09   Moving on, Google has announced their carbon-free plans. And they say, "As of today, we have eliminated Google's entire carbon legacy, covering all our operational emissions, before we became carbon neutral in 2007, through the purchase of high-quality carbon offsets.

00:27:25   This means that Google's lifetime net carbon footprint is now zero. We are pleased to be the first major company to get this done today.

00:27:30   Since 2017, we've been matching all of our annual electricity consumption with 100% renewable energy.

00:27:35   Now we're going even further. By 2030, Google is aiming to run our business on carbon-free energy everywhere at all times.

00:27:42   That's pretty good stuff. That is actually not evil. Who knew? They still do not evil things from time to time.

00:27:48   Nice to see companies competing to be the more green, the more environmentally friendly.

00:27:55   I thought Google had an interesting idea. Because they're such a young company, relatively speaking, they can essentially afford to do this, which is erasing their past debt.

00:28:03   Before they were concerned about this, let's erase all of that. Let's estimate how much carbon we used for the entire life of the company before we started caring about this.

00:28:11   And let's get offsets for all of those, too.

00:28:13   Apple for Apple would be harder, because they started in the 70s. And even just calculating what their carbon usage was would be difficult.

00:28:20   I think Apple's still going farther because they're trying to weave it through their whole supply chain.

00:28:23   Although, Google itself has less of a supply chain than Apple, because they don't manufacture quite as much hardware as Apple does through third parties or whatever.

00:28:31   But yeah, it's good stuff. I like to see it. And dueling press releases and dueling multi-decade strategies to be more environmentally friendly gets a thumbs up from me.

00:28:43   Yep, I'm pretty happy about this. This is good times.

00:28:47   All right, so tell me, Jon, what's going on with Unity's IPO filing, please?

00:28:51   This is a series of follow-up items that have been in the notes for a while. The theme of all of these is related to the Apple Epic struggle, but it's like secondary and tertiary effects.

00:29:04   Setting aside Apple fighting with Epic and doing all their things, which continues to rumble on, what's going on in the rest of the industry related to this?

00:29:11   This first one, it's from many weeks ago, is about Unity. Unity is a competing 3D engine. It's like Unreal Engine, but from a different company.

00:29:19   It's cross-platform. Many games on iOS and many other platforms are built based on Unity.

00:29:25   And they are filing, the company that makes it is filing for an IPO. And one of the, I don't know the details of this, but I've seen enough IPOs.

00:29:30   And one of the things you do, and not just an IPO, but I think in general is like, you have to write up a document that describes to potential investors what things, what are the things that threaten your business.

00:29:43   And it seems to me that in this strange twist of the normal stuff in business where you just constantly try to make your company seem awesome to investors to get people to invest in everything.

00:29:53   Whatever the laws are around this require you to be honest. And it's like an insurance type thing, not literally, but like you never want someone later to say, "Hey, I invested in your company and you didn't tell me that this bad thing could happen. Therefore I'm suing you."

00:30:08   So companies are like painfully honest in these documents because they want to list everything bad that can happen. A volcano could erupt. Aliens could invade.

00:30:17   It's just so that shareholders can't come back and say, "You never told us this could happen. Look at the document. Here it is. Aliens, we told you. It was a potential threat. You invested anyway. So tough luck."

00:30:26   And it seems like the entire investor community in the world has accepted, "Yeah, whenever anyone files for an IPO or files this document, of course if you look at the threats it's going to look like this company is doomed. Look at all these bad things that can happen to the company.

00:30:38   They're so vulnerable." And it's just like they've all agreed, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. We know that you're going to list all this stuff. We know you're going to, but it doesn't scare me away. I'm still going to invest."

00:30:59   So the twist on the usual threats that they put in there from competitors and so on and so forth is listed in Unity's IPO and I imagine it may be soon listed in lots of the companies' IPOs.

00:31:09   It's just basically a warning that a lot of Unity's business relies on people using their product to sell applications through app stores.

00:31:17   And in the typical sort of cold-blooded language of these documents, I thought it was a great encapsulation of the threats posed by app stores to other companies.

00:31:27   I'll read some portions of it here. "Operating system platform providers or application stores may change terms of service policies or technical requirements which could adversely impact our business." Yep, totally.

00:31:37   "If our customers were to violate or an operating system platform or application store believes that our customers have violated its terms or policies, that operating system platform provider or application store could limit or discontinue our customers' access to its platform.

00:31:50   In some cases, these requirements may not be clear or our interpretation of these requirements may not align with the interpretation of the operating system platform provider or application store, which could lead to inconsistent enforcement of these terms of service and policies against us or our customers and could also result in the operating system platform provider or application store limiting or discontinuing access to its platform store."

00:32:08   There's lots of long sort of multi-word phrases there to say app store, but like, yep, you pretty much nailed it. Like that's the environment into which everyone is trying to sell their applications.

00:32:21   Like basically the app stores control the platforms and if you are going to try to ride that bear in any possible way, the bear is going to try to potentially buck you off and it could bite you and it might not even notice you.

00:32:32   And you might just get, you know, I'm straining this analogy. This is from Steve Ballmer's ride the bear analogy from Microsoft and IBM way back in the day.

00:32:39   Anyway, this, I can't imagine any company filing for an IPO these days having anything to do with app store, not having a section like this in a risk section.

00:32:50   I think this would be a great thing to bring out in some case in the future about like, or trying to persuade Congress to apply regulation to app stores or whatever to say, "Here's a demonstration of how much power app stores have.

00:33:04   Now when companies try to go public, all of them list the threat of app stores as a thing that could just be business ending for them because of the power that these app stores wield or whatever."

00:33:14   And that can't be good. Like overall for, you know, humanity, business, you know, economies like that, to have like more massive risk factors like that can't be a good thing.

00:33:28   Yeah, I mean, like I said, these documents always list like everything and they always make it seem dire, but I just thought it was, you know, if you tighten up the verbiage surrounding the, you know, the, what is it called, what is it called, platform providers or application stores, if you squish that down to app stores or if you just squish it further down to Apple or Google, it's very, it's a very straightforward, laurely explanation of the reality that we all face.

00:33:52   Do you think this is just like a blip in computing history? Do you think, I mean, obviously, you know, whatever you can call it, like a 12 year period blip, but like, do you think, say in 10 years from now, that the dominant computing platforms will have these locked down, like single gatekeeper app store kind of situations? Or do you think this will be, you know, kind of partially torn down or completely torn down by then?

00:34:16   I feel like that most industries, what you see is a sort of Cambrian explosion of activity and then consolidation. And I guess you could have a re-explosion if there's technological change, but it's tricky.

00:34:33   I mean, the one I always think of and the one you always see charts about is the auto industry. There used to be tons of car companies and then there were not tons of car companies because most of them went out of business and got bought or consolidated.

00:34:44   And now sort of with the change in tech, you're like, well, electric cars, is there going to be like an explosion in new car companies? Not really. I mean, it just like seeing one new car company like Tesla is like, wow, I can't believe that happened.

00:34:56   But so I think the same thing with computer companies used to be way more computer companies and way more platforms. And there was consolidation. I'm not sure if you how you get the next next explosion in that specific type of business, right?

00:35:11   You can have an explosion in tech companies. I think we've seen an explosion in tech companies, but platforms haven't really exploded. Even mobile. I guess you had a brief period where there was like Web OS and Blackberry or whatever. But then again, consolidation.

00:35:23   So and with app stores, they sort of got it. They were pre-consolidated because you need a platform to have an app store already. So they piggybacked on existing platforms.

00:35:34   I think it's one of those things where regulation could help with this. But the only I think we will eventually see a diversification, but not a diversification of things that look exactly like the app store.

00:35:46   Diversification in how digital products are sold and distributed, sure. But specifically app stores, specifically for mobile devices, there's not going to be like a third one. And I don't think either one of the two parties are going to give up much control without government regulation.

00:36:06   So I think it'll just be like, well, I remember when we used to all buy music from iTunes and now we all use streaming services, right? It'll be like, well, remember when we used to all buy apps from the app store and now we use InsertThingX that I don't know what it is, like, you know, some future unforeseen thing.

00:36:19   I think it has to be a new, a slightly new type of thing in the same way that, you know, streaming services are not, it's just digital music, right? But it's different enough that the players changed around a little bit.

00:36:31   And there was a little, there's a little bit more openness there and competing streaming services versus everybody buying from iTunes, you know, and you know, having Amazon and so on and so forth come in late in the game. So.

00:36:42   And speaking of gatekeeping and things of that nature, news publishers, including the Wall Street Journal, are joining the attack on the app store and ask for Apple's cut to be halved. Surprise, surprise.

00:36:53   Yeah, this is another older story, but it was like when the, another side effect of Apple versus Epic, other companies smell blood in the water. Like when Apple is weakened slash distracted.

00:37:03   Now, if you're part of Apple news, plus, hey, we don't like our deal either. We'd like to get more money and you have less money, Apple, right? Sure. Why not pile on? I mean, I don't know if it'll work out for everybody, but as soon as there's any perceived weakness, it's time to perhaps try to renegotiate with Apple.

00:37:21   Again, this was, this was about a month ago, more than a month ago at this point. So I don't know how it turned out. Probably not well, but people are going to try.

00:37:29   And sort of kind of tangentially speaking of Apple blocked a Facebook update that called out the 30% app store quote unquote tax.

00:37:37   Apple blocked Facebook from informing users that Apple would collect 30% of in-app purchases made through a planned new feature, Facebook tells Reuters. Apple said the update violated an app store rule that doesn't let developers show quote irrelevant quote information to users.

00:37:51   And there's a screenshot here in the show notes, which hopefully we will put as maybe the chapter art or something. But it says there's a button that says purchase access for $9.99 and in small text beneath Apple takes 30% of this purchase. Learn more.

00:38:05   I thought this was interesting because I mean, on the one hand, you know, Facebook's doing this to be a jerk, right? Because they're sore about the 30% and they're, they're offering a price and they want, they want the customer to know you don't like this price.

00:38:20   Well, guess what? Apple's taken a 30% cut out of it. The implication being maybe it would be 30% lower if it wasn't for Apple. Who knows if it would. But anyway, but I think the interesting part of it is.

00:38:30   Like if you have a, if you have a business model of a business model for your digital thing that you don't like that, you don't want the user to know about like that you're kind of ashamed of like it's like they're calling it irrelevant.

00:38:47   There's no need for the customer. That's between you and me, the software developer, that's between Apple and the developer. The customer doesn't need to know about this at all. But this relationship between Apple and developer does affect the customer in profound ways in, in small ways in terms of what is the price of this specific purchase and in big ways in terms of what kind of applications will you ever see available on this platform.

00:39:07   And Apple saying Apple, like literally having a rule or their interpretation of rule that says, don't tell users what's actually going on, even if it's the truth, like it's 100% truth you do in app purchase, Apple gets 30%. That is true.

00:39:20   Apple doesn't want you saying that to the user. And I'm not sure that's a particularly defensive defensible position, even though, like I said, Facebook's putting this text there to kind of be a jerk. And this is a battle of the titans, you know, between these two companies.

00:39:38   It seems like if Apple thought it had a system that really was good, like, hey, the App Store is great. Everybody loves it. Users, Apple and developers were all doing great. Putting the terms in while it may be quote unquote irrelevant or maybe too much information or maybe people don't care.

00:39:56   They wouldn't forbid it. It's like, yeah, you want to tell people what the deal is? Fine. Like the deal is the deal. What harm is there in users knowing this? And I think as I think as any of us who have ever had an app in the App Store know, customers, most people have no idea how the App Store works, nor should they really care.

00:40:11   The same way they don't know what percentage of their purchase price of groceries is going to a vendor and how much people pay to be put in end caps. Like, customers don't need to know that. In some ways, it is irrelevant. But like I said, in this specific instance of apps on the App Store, it is actually much more relevant to customers than perhaps the fees the grocery store charges to get your item somewhere other than the bottom shelf or whatever.

00:40:33   Yeah, I mean, in this case, it's complicated. First of all, like, it could have been a much more complicated situation than what Facebook reported here. Facebook is a terrible company run by a bunch of terrible people who lie constantly.

00:40:46   Facebook could be leaving out some really important information here that makes it a little bit less clear cut. That being said, if there is any kind of rule in Apple that does prohibit app developers from saying below the purchase button, "Apple takes 30% of this purchase," that is indeed a big problem.

00:41:06   I agree with John, that is not something that is a good look. However Apple chooses to coach the language around such a rule, of course it's going to be an unwritten rule, but if they say it's "irrelevant," that's not a meaningful term in app development.

00:41:22   Apps are filled with irrelevant information. How do you define what that even means? That doesn't mean anything. We shouldn't argue about what is relevant or irrelevant to users. That's what Apple wants us to do if they're really doing this.

00:41:36   But the reality is, Apple doesn't want developers to show users where the money goes. There's a huge "if" here. If this story is true, and if this is the whole story, and if Facebook didn't leave out massive information here. Those are big "ifs."

00:41:53   But I think this is a very likely thing. Knowing Apple and their attitude towards this. And I think you could kind of see it both ways. If you go to a store, the prices in a store don't say, "We take 40% of the price of this milk, and Verizon Farms gets 60%."

00:42:19   The store doesn't say that, and customers don't necessarily need to care. But I think the difference here, and why customers are so in the dark about this, is that when you are buying something in an app, it really seems like you are giving your money to the developer.

00:42:36   It doesn't seem like you're giving your money to Apple, and then they're going to give some of it to the developer. So if you're in a store, you know you're shopping in the store. You know that there is such a thing as a markup in the store. And you know that when you buy that gallon of Verizon milk, you know that the store is going to take some part of that.

00:42:55   It's very clear to you how that system works. Whereas in an app on your phone, people don't have that assumption, they don't have that expectation. They expect that when they are buying this thing, that that purchase price is going to the developer. Whatever that price is, it's going to the developer.

00:43:10   Or they assume it all goes to Apple, and a lot of people still think that Apple makes every app in the App Store. So there's that.

00:43:26   So the money goes to the developer, and whatever price they pay, that's the price the developer gets. You know the system has always been more complicated than that. There's always things like credit card fees, when any transaction, but I feel like the difference in magnitude matters here.

00:43:40   If you lose a few percent, like 3 to 5 percent for payment processing and weird tax things, fine. I would even say if you lose up to 10 percent for weird, maybe some kind of weird tax or currency conversion issues in addition, fine. But I don't think people would assume.

00:43:58   There's an in-app purchase button, and they want to give their money to somebody offering some cool thing in their app. I don't think people assume that Apple's taking a third of it. That's why I think this kind of language, if an app chooses to put this here, should be allowed.

00:44:15   And if there is indeed a rule written or not within Apple that says that you can't do this, that's a terrible rule and they should revoke that.

00:44:23   The thing that strikes me about this is, and granted I'm only looking at the image of the picture and the caption beneath, but this plays to me as though Facebook thinks that somebody's going to feel bad for Facebook, that Apple's taking 30 percent of this purchase.

00:44:40   Who's going to feel bad for Facebook in this? There must be. I would assume there are people that are Facebook superfans, in the same way that you could argue the three of us are superfans of Apple, but who are they?

00:44:53   Even the people that enjoy the social interaction that Facebook can provide, friends and family who really enjoy that sort of thing, I wouldn't say any of them are overly enthusiastic about Facebook themselves. I sort of get the play here, like, "Aw man, Apple's screwing us. They're taking 30 percent of this."

00:45:13   But your Facebook, grow up. Who cares if it was you, Marco, or me, or Underscore, or John. Okay, that's different. But it's frickin' Facebook. They print money. Who cares? Y'all get a grip.

00:45:30   Well, they're trying to turn customer sentiment against Apple, because that's part of it. Assuming this is a thing that is as described, it's to Facebook's advantage for people to be mad about the purchase price and to be mad at Apple.

00:45:43   Like, to think that, "Oh, if Apple didn't take that cut, this would be lower." And now Facebook is fomenting anti-Apple sentiment, which is why it's kind of a jerky thing to do, and why you can imagine Apple not particularly liking it.

00:45:55   I would still say, if the deal really is fair, and would seem fair to anyone you described it to, you wouldn't be ashamed of explaining it. It's kind of like when you went to the grocery store, they had a little sign next to the MasterCard thing that said, "MasterCard takes 1 percent of this transaction."

00:46:12   Every time you use a credit card, you have to pay X percent or X amount to MasterCard. Like Marco said, if they had that sign there in small prints underneath the little MasterCard symbol on the register, people might read it and go, "Huh."

00:46:26   But because it's a fraction of a percent or 1 or 2 percent or whatever it is, people would just say, "Oh, that's interesting. I didn't know that. But anyway, not a big deal."

00:46:34   But 30 percent is very different, and that would probably make people notice, especially if they didn't think about that before. They're like, "Really? 30 percent?" Of course, on the other hand, if people knew just how much the retailer takes for certain products, they'd also be amazed.

00:46:46   I think most people think the majority of the purchase price of their thing goes towards Nabisco or the dairy farm that sells the milk, where very often that is not the case, and the majority of the money goes to the retailer.

00:46:59   Who knows what people think about how the world works? It's not something that people should need to know. Sometimes there's just collateral damage in this war between titans.

00:47:08   But I still feel like if you had a deal that seems reasonable, like the credit card fee thing, people would be like, "Oh, well, I don't care. It's irrelevant to me, but it doesn't seem crazy."

00:47:18   If you told someone how credit card fees work, they might be surprised that retailers just have to eat that, and it might make them feel bad for using a credit card instead of cash, but that ship has long since sailed, and I think the entire economy has learned it's worth it for the convenience.

00:47:32   We will pay those fees because we know more people will shop at our store if we don't insist that everyone pay with cash, because it's more convenient.

00:47:39   That's why the credit card entry is as big as it is, and so I think everyone's willing to make that trade-off. It seems reasonable if you explain it.

00:47:49   So if people know about the app store deals, this is setting aside the stuff I said before, the big macro-level stuff.

00:47:55   And by the way, they also control the type of apps you're ever going to see because they decide what is allowed on the store. More on that later, possibly.

00:48:01   I think people wouldn't just go, "Huh." They'd be like, "Wow," and maybe they would take a note of that, and maybe if and when this comes up in the legislature for considering regulation, they'll remember seeing that little sign about Apple taking a 30% cut.

00:48:16   Or maybe they wouldn't care. Who knows? We're in such a developer-centric world view here that I honestly don't know how regular people would handicap these parties.

00:48:27   Because I think, Casey, you mentioned Facebook superfans or whatever, but I think in general, outside of the tech sphere, people like Facebook because you don't pay for Facebook. It's free.

00:48:38   And it's a thing that has positive connotations to a lot of people. They use it all the time. If you took it away from them, they'd be sad. And they never have to pay any money for it, so thumbs up.

00:48:46   And I think people in general like Apple, but I think people in general either don't think about developers or if you were to describe what a developer was, wouldn't like them. Because they'd be saying, "Oh, these people are getting rich selling fart apps," or whatever their notion is of what a developer is.

00:48:59   Their view of it is probably not accurate, and unlike Apple and Facebook, there is no sort of friendly public face that says "developer" that makes people have good feelings about it.

00:49:10   This reminds me of the times, and I can't think of anywhere it has happened recently, except maybe a gas station, when there'll be, and you've alluded to this, a cash price and a credit card price.

00:49:23   And the credit card price is like five tenths of a cent per gallon more or something like that. I forget exactly what it was. But you do see that from time to time.

00:49:32   And I agree with what you said, that convenience definitely trumps pretty much everything else. And so, God, I should really find a better turn of phrase for that. Convenience is more important to most people than anything else.

00:49:44   And so, yeah, I don't know. It's just crummy. And I think, like you said, we're so developer-centric because the three of us are developers and make at least some small portion of our living in the App Store.

00:49:59   And so we are very, very biased when it comes to this. But yeah, it feels like 10 plus years on, 30% might be a little bit preposterous.

00:50:07   Oh yeah. Well, and before we, to save us from a bit of follow-up here, if you want to run a store that accepts credit cards, the deal that you have to make with the credit card companies, I think almost always, this could be out of date information, but at least used to be this way, almost always prevents you from requiring credit card minimums or charging a different price for credit cards than for other customers.

00:50:28   Almost always, the merchants demand that from the terms. Now, that being said, many smaller stores just ignore that and they can usually get away with it because I don't think enforcement on little mom and pop places is very strong.

00:50:41   But that's why the big chains, that's why you can go to Starbucks and charge a $1.50 cup of terrible coffee.

00:50:48   Starbucks knows the deal they make with Visa, MasterCard, American Express, whatever, precludes them from charging different prices to credit card customers. And I don't know, maybe the big gas chains might negotiate things differently because gas is such a weird thing with weird margins and everything.

00:51:03   But for the most part, most stores aren't actually allowed to charge different rates. So that's worth knowing in that argument and in its analogy.

00:51:17   I would also say once you know how this kind of stuff works, your behavior might change. Once I learned how much worse it is, for instance, for the wait staff at restaurants to have credit card tips versus cash tips.

00:51:33   And once you learn how much their income depends on tips as well, I started doing cash tips whenever I can. Like if I'm at a restaurant, if I have enough cash to pay the tip in cash, I will try to do that.

00:51:47   And I started carrying cash to restaurants for that purpose if I have enough because it's a small difference for me. Oh no, I'm not going to get the 1% reward on my card for that portion of the bill.

00:52:00   But it's a huge difference for them. And so when you learn that kind of thing, you might change your behavior.

00:52:08   So I don't think it's unreasonable for an Apple like Facebook to attempt to tell people, as evil as Facebook is, to attempt to tell people Apple is taking 30% of this purchase.

00:52:18   That being said, there is another side of this, I know we're going along on this, sorry, but there is another side of this of like, what do you expect users to do when there is no other choice?

00:52:27   You know, like, okay, Apple takes 30% of this purchase, but there's not a button right below it that says, "Purchase it through us," you know, so we don't have this problem because there can't be because Apple prohibits that.

00:52:37   So like, when there's no alternative, when there's no way for people to change their behavior, I can kind of see why Apple would say, "Well, it's irrelevant then." That's not a good reason.

00:52:50   Well, like I said, they're trying to change sentiment. And it's kind of the same example as you giving the cash tip. Like, so you have an alternative, which is I can change my individual behavior in a way that mitigates this somewhat, which is exactly what you just described.

00:53:03   But there is another alternative. You know, in the case of Apple, there's no individual thing that you can do, but there is a collective thing in both cases that can be done. The collective thing in your case would be to vote for people who are going to vote for a much higher untipped minimum wage, you know, or no distinction between tip versus untipped minimum wage to get rid of or change the terrible system we have in the United States.

00:53:25   And these are terrible systems for a lot of things, by the way, high people who are not in the US. One of them is tipped workers and that whole scam where you can pay them ridiculously low wage and expect them to make it up in tips, which is, you know, anyway.

00:53:37   Collective action. All of us can vote for people who will make laws to change that such that these people don't have to rely so heavily on tips such that, you know, like the individual action of you tipping cash is good, but the collective action of us changing the law surrounding that is better.

00:53:53   And so what I think Facebook is hoping for is, well, there's no individual action you can do, but we want to move your sentiment so that the collective action that somehow we will get behind is all these app stores. They need to be regulated. Let's make laws that change what they're allowed to do.

00:54:06   Yeah, that's fair. And I would say just in general to wrap this up. It's a really like dirty scummy thing. I think anytime Apple has a rule about the app store that precludes app developers from telling the user what's going on, like why things are the way they are or why they can't do something.

00:54:28   Like that's one of the reasons why the rule about in-app purchases I think is so sinister. Like the part that you can't even tell people why they can't sign up in your app, like that to me is incredibly problematic and just a sleazy thing to do that is beneath the ethics that a company like Apple purports to have in other areas.

00:54:49   Anything where they're literally restricting what you can tell your users about material things that matter in the context of an app, those kind of rules should not stand.

00:55:01   Yeah, like any kind of rule that says you can't say mean things about Apple, that seems kind of bad because you're like, oh really, I can't say mean things about you. It's like, well, okay.

00:55:10   Well, not even mean things. You can't say facts about Apple. That's the crazy thing.

00:55:14   I'm dividing into two things. I'm saying like if they said you can't say mean things about Apple, well, you know, it's their store and of all the things that you have to comply with, that's fine.

00:55:23   But the next level is you can't say the truth in a neutral way. You can't literally explain what's going on in many aspects. You just mentioned, you can't explain to people why they can't sign up.

00:55:34   It's the truth. You could explain it like what if I just explained it dispassionately and without saying Apple is a meanie, but they're like, no, you can't tell people what's going on.

00:55:44   And anytime, like it's bad enough when someone says you can't criticize, again, they're not the government, so this is not a free speech issue, but it makes you feel bad about it.

00:55:51   It makes you feel like, okay, well, they really got me under their thumb. I can't say anything mean about them.

00:55:55   But then saying, also, you can't tell people the truth, even if you do it in a way that is entirely neutral, even if you do it in a way that is glowing.

00:56:01   We love Apple. We love giving them 30%. Nope, Apple says just don't, please don't tell people what's going on. It's irrelevant to them.

00:56:08   So I think a way to perhaps understand Apple and other companies, and this was written to us with regard to Apple and Epic, but I think it's true of pretty much every company.

00:56:19   And I try to remind myself of this regularly, particularly when it comes to Apple, but I often forget it.

00:56:24   And Paul Rippey wrote in and had what I thought was a really clear distillation of motivations of businesses.

00:56:31   And so Paul wrote, "Both companies are doing what they owe it to their shareholders to do, trying to maximize profits.

00:56:38   Apple has me," says Paul, "personally locked in, even though my handcuffs chafe sometimes.

00:56:42   But Epic is the same sort of sticky and just as good at extracting money.

00:56:49   At least in some middle schools, kids who play the free version of Fortnite without buying costumes are teased and called defaults.

00:56:55   Ew, gross, Tommy's a default. Like they're wearing the wrong kind of shoes or something.

00:56:59   Apple and Epic aren't bad any more than a lion who kills an antelope is bad. They're just doing what their nature has them do."

00:57:06   Which is obvious for sure, but I think it's something that I at least could use a reminder of from time to time.

00:57:12   Sorry, Paul, I hate this whole thing.

00:57:14   Oh, I love it. Get out of here.

00:57:16   And so I'll explain why. Well, first, the Epic and the defaults or whatever.

00:57:22   Listen, kids since time immemorial have been making fun of other kids for not having the things that the rich kids have.

00:57:27   Whether it's Reebok shoes or skins in Fortnite, that will never end. That's terrible.

00:57:33   It's not a thing that we should accept as a status quo, as I hope we haven't accepted many things that were normal for us as kids as a status quo.

00:57:40   In the same way, sort of abdicating responsibility by saying corporations owe it to their shareholders to do this, therefore they must.

00:57:48   That's not true. That is a thing that you can choose to accept as a form of fatalism, but companies are just made up of people.

00:57:56   And there is no privilege that shareholders have to get profit in a specific way, first of all.

00:58:01   And second of all, I don't even accept the premise that doing things that seem bad or mean or greedy are actually the way to increase shareholder value.

00:58:10   Again, Apple itself has made this argument many times. They've made it in words and they made it in deeds.

00:58:15   How do you become Apple? Do you do it by doing the most greedy thing possible all the time?

00:58:21   That's not how Apple found its success.

00:58:23   So it's a small-minded view to think, "Oh, well, they're doing this thing that seems mean, but, well, they owe it to shareholders."

00:58:31   I don't think, like, you're assuming that this thing that they're doing that you don't like actually does benefit shareholders more than doing something that would be nicer.

00:58:39   I don't think that's true. And second of all, even if it was true, companies are not this abstract entity that acts without thinking.

00:58:46   They are not a law of the universe. They are not a scorpion on top of a frog.

00:58:50   They are groups of people. There is nothing stopping them from choosing to do something that is the right thing to do because it's the right thing to do.

00:58:58   Again, as embodied by Apple in many instances, if not necessarily the ones that we're talking about.

00:59:03   So I reject this whole thing. I hate it when people say, "Oh, companies have to do it. They have to make profit. They have to extract value. They have to enslave us in these work camps. It's just what companies have to do."

00:59:14   Oh, I guess you're right. They do have to do that. You can't blame them for doing it. They're just companies. Nope. Nope. I absolutely can blame them.

00:59:21   It's not what they have to do. And also, on top of all that, it's probably not even what they should do if they want to make the most money.

00:59:27   I understand what you're saying, but, I mean, at some point, the buck always has to stop somewhere.

00:59:37   And what you're saying to me is that the buck does not stop with the shareholder. And I don't think any companies operate that way. Any reasonably large companies operate that way.

00:59:45   I don't want it to be that way.

00:59:47   I mean, what you're offering is a criticism of unbridled capitalism.

00:59:53   If left to their own devices, these companies will destroy the earth and externalize all losses and internalize all gains to benefit a tiny minority if not constrained by the laws that we collectively as a people impose upon them.

01:00:06   And that is probably true, but it is not something that I accept and excuse and say, "Yep, sure, totally. That's how the way the world has to work." No.

01:00:13   No, it's not the way the world has to work. And it's not the way the world should work.

01:00:17   And, like I said, I don't think it's a Pollyanna-ish or something because I think you can make more money by doing the right thing and making good products and not being super greedy.

01:00:26   And I think Apple has actually shown that in many instances to get it to the point where it is because it has done many things that seem, from a bean-counter micro perspective, to be the wrong move.

01:00:36   And at every stage that it has done that, it has gotten more successful, not less.

01:00:41   But if that were the case, then Elon, the savior of all mankind, should be doing so much more to give Tesla technology to other companies, right?

01:00:51   Because if he is really as benevolent as everyone seems to think he is, then he would be giving all of this information away, and he's not.

01:00:58   I mean, it's not saying that you have to just be entirely selfless and give away everything. That is obviously not the greatest strategy.

01:01:05   We're just choosing between the greediest possible thing you can do and something that is slightly more magnanimous.

01:01:11   And people are arguing what—it's such a cynical argument to say, "Well, they could do the ever so slightly more magnanimous thing, but they owe it to the shareholders to be assholes." And they don't.

01:01:20   There's nothing making that so. They are choosing to do it, and we could rightly call them assholes for choosing to do it, but there is no force of nature demanding that they do it.

01:01:30   It's such a cynical view to think that's just—they're just going to do what they're going to do, and there's nothing we can do about it, and we should accept it as the way things are.

01:01:38   No, that's the reason we make laws regulating companies, so that the worst angels, the devils, the worst aspects of humanity are not allowed to have free reign over our entire society.

01:01:52   That's why we make these laws, and in the best cases, in the most successful companies, they are able to sort of restrain themselves from doing the worst possible thing that has the most short-term gain for them specifically.

01:02:06   In general, we demonize companies that do that, at least over the long arc of history. We say, "Well, this company did the sleaziest things possible and filled the water with mercury and made all this money briefly so one big fat cat rich white guy could retire a gazillionaire and then die, but they poisoned an entire town."

01:02:26   In general, we frown upon that, even though in the short term, well, they had to do that to maximize profits. There was no law against putting mercury in that stream. Nope, don't accept it.

01:02:34   We are sponsored this week by ExpressVPN. Now ExpressVPN is a wonderful service if you need a VPN. There's lots of different reasons you might need one.

01:02:44   One of the big ones that people use these for is that it lets you access the internet as if you're in a different country than where you actually are.

01:02:52   So for instance, you can have video streaming services like Netflix, for instance. They have different shows and movies available depending on where you are.

01:02:58   This is actually one of the most recent times I've used ExpressVPN was when I was traveling back when that was a thing and I was able to view my US Netflix account while I was traveling in Mexico.

01:03:09   Because it's a different country, they have different things and we weren't able to watch the show we were watching. We were in the middle of watching Frasier and we weren't able to get to it when we were there because we were out of our country.

01:03:18   But we were able to use ExpressVPN to kind of teleport ourselves back into our country as far as they were concerned and watch the same series we were watching at home even when we were out of the country.

01:03:28   You can do all sorts of things with VPNs and there's hundreds of them out there but ExpressVPN is great. It is ridiculously fast. You can stream video over it in HD quality with zero delay, no extra buffering.

01:03:41   I was shocked how well this worked. Honestly, you couldn't even tell that we were bouncing our traffic through the US. I was shocked it worked as well as it did.

01:03:50   There was literally no perceivable difference on my laptop. You can use ExpressVPN on lots of different devices. They have phones, laptops, tablets, even your TV.

01:04:00   It works with many streaming services. I went to Netflix. They also tested against Amazon Prime, BBC iPlayer, YouTube and many more. You can choose from almost 100 different countries and it's super easy to use.

01:04:11   You just launch the ExpressVPN app, change your location, hit connect and then refresh whatever you're watching and it just works.

01:04:18   It's so simple. See for yourself at ExpressVPN.com/ATP and you can get an extra three months free when you sign up for a one-year package. Once again, ExpressVPN.com/ATP for an extra three months for free.

01:04:34   Thank you so much to ExpressVPN for sponsoring our show.

01:04:40   So, one of the new things from the Apple Watch event from a couple of weeks back is Apple announced Family Setup. The idea here is that until now, every Apple Watch was required to be paired with an iPhone. Not an iPad, an iPhone.

01:04:57   And now, you can set up an Apple Watch for someone else in your family who does not have their own iPhone and it has to be cellular and once you do this, it gets its own phone number similar to the other cellular Apple Watches with the whole number sync system thing.

01:05:13   But it's its own phone number. You can call it directly. It doesn't ring with yours. So, it's kind of its own independent cellular device but without having a phone and then you can use it as any other family device.

01:05:27   So, you can see the person's location, if they share it with you. You can enforce screen time limits. There's a new feature called School Time that basically locks down all the distracting features of the watch during the hours you set if they want to wear it to school.

01:05:41   We've actually been kind of on the edge of wanting to get our son some kind of cellular device so that we could see where he is because in our current situation, he's doing a lot of like going to the playground by himself and stuff like that.

01:05:58   Or maybe going to a friend's house after school. So, we wanted to give him some kind of way that we could see his location if we need to and that he could call us or we could call him or something in an emergency or to see what was going on.

01:06:15   And he's still a little small and a little young we thought for a phone. We didn't really want to get him a phone. Some of the kids in his class actually already have phones but we didn't want to go there yet.

01:06:28   I don't know or care what everyone else's thoughts are about what's too young for phones. This is, sorry for everyone who has different opinions. This is just our needs here and our thoughts here.

01:06:40   Anyway, so this seemed like a perfect arrangement where an Apple Watch that is an inexpensive model, hence the new SE, or even like an old used one of the old ones if we had it but unfortunately we didn't have any aluminum ones that had cellular.

01:06:58   So we went with an SE, you know the nice base model SE1 but with cellular and funnily enough now my son wears the same size watch as I do, the 40 millimeter.

01:07:10   Got him a size 2 of the new rubber strap thing although size 1 is probably going to be the more appropriate size. I'm waiting for that to arrive in a few weeks.

01:07:19   But 2 is loose but it works. Today was the first day of wearing it fully, like for the whole day including going to school with it. Then after school sure enough we were able to send him off to the playground by himself and he was able to come back.

01:07:34   And for anybody who thinks that we're monsters it's a different situation where we live. It's fine. Everyone here does this.

01:07:40   Anyway, so the overall experience of it was surprisingly good. You would expect something like this from Apple that's like a brand new feature that involves like coordinating multiple services, multiple devices, different iCloud accounts, the carrier accounts.

01:07:57   You would expect a lot of rough edges and a lot of things that are broken or don't work well. And largely it was great. So first of all, 2 things have gone very well for me this year with this upgrade cycle. Number 1, I was able to successfully transfer when I got my new Series 6.

01:08:15   I was able to transfer through the regular process my cellular service from my old watch to my new watch. That has literally never worked before. This year for some reason it worked. I'm very happy about that because that saved me from dealing with AT&T's weird chat assistance.

01:08:31   So that was wonderful. And then when it came time to set up Adam's family setup watch, with the exception of one unlabeled button, I took a screenshot, I'm going to get the chapter art. There's like a family setup screen and there's like an unlabeled localized string missing thing where it has a little privacy people shaking hands icon and under it in all caps it says "button_title_wifi".

01:09:00   So besides that one missing localized string, everything else about it actually worked very smoothly. I was shocked. Again, I hit very few rough edges. The only little snags where I had trouble figuring out how do I get his contacts or how do I add myself to his contacts and everything.

01:09:22   And then how do I get his location to show up in our Find My app as the watch's location. It turned out I had to go adjust settings. He'd already had an iPad with his own iCloud account. He's in our family account.

01:09:39   And we had screen time restrictions set up for him, including not only hours of use, but things like privacy settings. Everything that used to be parental controls is now under screen time. So we had to actually go into the screen time settings on our devices, managing his settings, to enable location services at all.

01:10:02   And then to enable him to share his location. And then we could see him in our family group. But before he had the permission to share his location, that didn't work. And that was a weird thing to have to find, but I eventually found it. But besides that, it has worked very well.

01:10:21   My only concern remains battery life. Oh, there's another funny feature. So the school time feature is interesting. Let me go into that for a second here. I actually forgot about this. But they have this feature called school time where you can set during certain hours. It basically locks out the watch from doing anything that might distract the kids in school for the most part.

01:10:42   So it fixes it to a certain face. And I haven't looked to see if I can edit that face at all. But it's like it's a certain face that seems only accessible for school time. It has it's a yellow circular, you know, hourly index face with analog hands.

01:10:58   And it shows digital time below the like, you know, spoke of the hands. And it shows the day and date above. So I guess great, it teaches kids how to read analog time, maybe, but also, you know, has the digital time there and has, you know, day and date.

01:11:12   I was a little disappointed that it seems to force this face, instead of letting him use other faces that he might want. It disables complications and apps, and it puts the watch in do not disturb mode. And only the approved contacts are able to get through.

01:11:29   So it's actually a very good thing for school. I was amused that when he came home, I was I was looking through the settings and I spotted in school time, it tells me every single time he woke up the watch to look at it, and how long he looked at it.

01:11:45   So I was able to say, Hey, hey, you know what, you looked at the watch 71 times during school. We have to lessen that.

01:11:54   He just got it. It's a new thing. Of course he's going to be looking at it. It's cool.

01:11:59   Right. And, and, and I, and, you know, we had the whole conversation about, you know, this is not a thing to brag about. This is not a thing to like, you know, show off. Like that's, that's not a good thing. Like just, you know, if people ask you can say that your parents got it for you so they can see where you are. And so they, as you can call them. That's, that's, that's, that's the, that's the official story to tell kids in school.

01:12:16   And, you know, I know he wanted to show it off. Of course, of course he wants to show it off. He's a kid. Right. That's I knew this was going to happen. The reason I bring this up, though, is that the battery life was not great at the end of the day.

01:12:28   So after school, it was down to 33%. As we were like going home from the playground in the evening, I like went to go pick him up. We were going home from the playground in the evening, and it was about to go into like power save mode. It was down to like 5% or something.

01:12:42   So the way it was used today, the battery life seems pretty bad. But I think because it was new and because he probably was looking at it and showing it to a lot of people all the time constantly.

01:12:54   You know, that's it was probably depressed somewhat. I explained to him about things like, you know, the workout mode, which of course has already tried. He is, he is explored so much of the watch already.

01:13:03   He was like, like within 20 minutes of having it, he was like, do like doing the individual handwritten characters to respond to me in a text message.

01:13:14   Can you imagine if you got a device like this when you were that age, what you would have done with it? Like think of what we ever you know, can chronicle cranny that we explored of like our crappy, you know, personal computers that had such a limited functionality.

01:13:26   This, this one thing that's on his wrist all day does so much more than us writing like basic programs. And we were, you know, so I just not surprised me. Like all they've got is time and they're going to find everything that they can do with it.

01:13:38   Exactly. Yeah. He and his friend in school have already asked, are there any games on it? And I'm like, I actually, I know there's not on it now. I don't actually know if there are any good watch games.

01:13:49   Adam will tell you.

01:13:50   Yeah. Yeah. I don't, I don't think that would be a great idea for the battery life reasons, but also in the battery front, you know, one concern I've had with this that, that I've mentioned, I think David Sparks told me, told me about it, you know, years ago is like when an Apple watch with cellular is away from its phone all day long.

01:14:10   It keeps a cellular active way more than the average Apple watch does. Like most people with cellular watches, they're with their phone most of the day, but you just might go out like maybe for a jog and have it be on cellular. But like, it's not going to be like an all day thing.

01:14:23   The way it is, if you're going to school, you don't have the phone. So the cellular is actually not really designed to be on that long battery life wise. And so I think the battery life might just always be really crappy in this context, like the way it's being used this way.

01:14:37   This is also the smaller watch, you know, the bigger the bigger watch would have had a bigger battery, it would have looked even more ridiculous on him. So we didn't do that. But that might be a concern for anybody thinking about this, that battery life is going to be an issue.

01:14:50   This is what I'm going to watch like as the novelty wears off, and it just becomes like a thing that he has on his wrist, you know, we'll see how that changes things. I might also change the screen to tap to turn on rather than raise to wake. I think that might help. Again, because this is the SE does not have the always on screen. In this case, I think that that was a very good decision. Because the battery life is going to be so constrained.

01:15:15   So anyway, we'll see how that goes. Battery life is my primary concern. It at least will be just barely enough. Hopefully we can get better than that with maybe different settings and novelty wearing off. But overall, so far, it seems really good.

01:15:30   And it was amazing that like, I mean, and part of this, you know, again, my kid, you know, he's a nerd, he figured it out real fast, because he's made of us. But like, he, like, he literally has had this phone for a day. And he calls me from the playground, like I had messaged him, like, Hey, we're going to dinner, you know, meet us there, or we'll come pick you up. And he calls me from the playground in response to my text. Okay, daddy. Yeah, okay, well, you know, I'll see you there. Like, I just got my first phone call from my son. That's from his wrist from a playground.

01:15:59   Yeah, if you could have lifted your wrist on the playground when you were eight and called your parents and talk to them. You know, just think of another ridiculous thing. We've talked about this before about things that we did with our programmable calculators. Yeah, which were such pieces of garbage in terms of computing ability. And yet we'll find every nook and cranny of thing that we can do with them. That's cool. And he's living in the Dick Tracy future. Like, just, I'm very jealous of the kids these days. They don't know how good they have it. We had to play snake on a stupid calculator. And we liked it.

01:16:28   You say all that and I agree with you by and large, but also consider that Marco and Tiff will know where Adam is always. And I think we talked about this last episode, maybe a couple episodes ago. But like, I was a pretty straight shooter growing up. I really didn't do anything. I don't think that that was that particularly egregious. But nevertheless, part of being and granted, I'm talking about being a teenager, not talking about being, you know, a grade schooler, but part of being a kid is doing crap that your parents don't want you to do.

01:16:57   And so even though I agree with you that having all this technology on his friggin wrist is incredible. And in putting myself in Marco and Tiff's shoes, I would probably make the same choices. But I think it's worth recognizing that in some ways we're, I was gonna say hindering, but that's not fair. We're changing the way that our kids are associating with us or treating us as compared to the way that we treated our parents, which is probably the most important thing.

01:17:26   Our parents, which is probably healthy and natural.

01:17:28   Don't you worry about it. Like in like two weeks, you will know how to disable the location and put it in. Like, first of all, teenagers absolutely will figure this out. But even young kids figure out how to get around screen time limits, how to not show their location when they don't want to at this point, Adam probably doesn't want to hide his location for his parents. But when he does, rest assured, he will have no problem doing that. Oh, yeah. And then the other thing is, you have probably haven't experienced this yet, because you just use it for one day, and you haven't been that far away. But, you know, my kids have Apple watches, finding the location via Apple Watch.

01:17:57   It's hit or miss, depending on cell coverage, depending on battery life. Like sometimes you just go to find my and it just it spins for a while and you just don't get to see a location. And these are not in the cases where my kids are intentionally hiding it, but they're just like at school or at their practice, you know, sports practice or something, right? Sometimes you just can't get a signal from where they are. And sometimes you just don't know. So it's, you know, unreliability is a factor. My one suggestion for Marco in terms of his

01:18:04   go to find my, and it just, it spins for a while,

01:18:07   and you just don't get to see a location.

01:18:08   And these are not in the cases where my kids

01:18:11   are intentionally hiding it, but they're just like

01:18:12   at school or at their, you know, sports practice

01:18:15   or something, right?

01:18:17   Sometimes you just can't get a signal from where they are.

01:18:20   And sometimes you just don't know.

01:18:21   So it's, you know, unreliability is a factor.

01:18:25   My one suggestion for Marco in terms of battery life

01:18:27   is perhaps, this is from, I have this experience

01:18:30   with my dog's thing, which is a similar tracker.

01:18:33   My dog doesn't look at her tracker very often.

01:18:36   But anyway, same deal.

01:18:38   If it's, you know, it's got GPS in it,

01:18:40   but if it's on like sort of the cellular network

01:18:42   or the, you know, communicating to GPS satellites

01:18:45   all the time, it really kills the battery.

01:18:47   What you want is for it to be on wifi.

01:18:50   So you register the dog tracker thing with wifi,

01:18:54   with sort of known wifi networks.

01:18:55   And if you can see one of those known wifi networks,

01:18:58   it does all its communication over wifi,

01:18:59   which I think just takes less battery

01:19:02   than trying to do the GPS slash cellular stuff.

01:19:04   So if your school has a wifi network,

01:19:07   can you get the watch on that wifi

01:19:09   so that when he shows up at school,

01:19:10   it switches cellular off or at least uses it less often,

01:19:13   and instead just speaks over wifi?

01:19:16   - Let me paint a picture for you.

01:19:18   He's in a new school this year.

01:19:20   He just got an Apple Watch.

01:19:22   He's the only kid in his class with an Apple Watch.

01:19:25   And this is a school that I barely know

01:19:28   because it's a brand new school.

01:19:30   There is no way I'm going to ask him

01:19:33   for the wifi password for his Apple Watch.

01:19:36   - It's probably written on the wall on a big piece of paper.

01:19:38   You just need to go in there.

01:19:40   And this is the thing that always

01:19:42   be on my local schools.

01:19:43   All my local schools have wifi,

01:19:45   but they don't tell the parents what the password is,

01:19:47   and the schools are in a cell phone dead zone.

01:19:50   So it's like you show up there for some

01:19:52   like back to school night parent thing,

01:19:54   and you're bored out of your mind

01:19:55   because you've had multiple kids go through the school,

01:19:57   and someone's asking some long question

01:19:58   that's more of a comment, and you can't look at Twitter.

01:20:01   (laughing)

01:20:02   And you know there's wifi, but you can't get on the wifi

01:20:05   because they won't tell you the password.

01:20:07   And the kids are on it through some like

01:20:08   a certificate system that like only their phones

01:20:11   can get on it, like you can't get on it

01:20:12   unless you know the password to the guest network.

01:20:14   Anyway, if your school has wifi,

01:20:16   the password is on the wall on a,

01:20:17   not an eight and a half by 11 piece of paper.

01:20:19   So you should just go there, look around,

01:20:21   and the wifi password would be like

01:20:23   the name of the school plus one, two, three,

01:20:24   and then just, you know, secretly just put the watch on wifi

01:20:28   and see if that helps.

01:20:29   - Yeah, I mean, there are complicating factors.

01:20:31   For instance, I'm not sure I'm allowed in the building.

01:20:33   (laughing)

01:20:34   - Yeah, well, all of this is a non-COVID times discussion

01:20:38   as I discuss my kids being at school and stuff like that.

01:20:40   So, yeah.

01:20:41   - It's amazing to me, Jon, how often you find yourself

01:20:44   in a cell phone dead zone.

01:20:45   Are the witches and--

01:20:47   - Rich people, the answer to your answer is rich people.

01:20:49   I live, I am a rich person, I live among rich people.

01:20:52   Rich people do not like cell phone towers.

01:20:54   - Yeah, but they like having the things

01:20:55   that make them happy, like cell service.

01:20:57   - No, they don't, it's a very much nimby thing.

01:20:59   It's hard-- - Yes, it is.

01:21:00   - When you're in the richest neighborhoods,

01:21:01   there's usually bad cell coverage.

01:21:03   - Well, guys, this is a problem I've never had.

01:21:05   (laughing)

01:21:06   - I mean, like, I'm not in the richness of rich neighborhoods

01:21:08   but the richer neighborhoods you get,

01:21:10   the more I go towards people's houses

01:21:11   who have actual mansions and actual like backyards and land,

01:21:15   the cell signal gets worse.

01:21:16   Like, if you take the, you know, the green line

01:21:19   through the, you know, the T in Boston,

01:21:21   through certain sections, you'll know when you're driving

01:21:24   through the richest of rich sections

01:21:25   because the cell signal gets worse.

01:21:27   And it's like, I think the same thing.

01:21:28   It's like, well, wouldn't you just want,

01:21:30   isn't that annoying to you?

01:21:31   Wouldn't you want to have good cell signal?

01:21:33   Not as much as they don't want to have cell towers, I guess.

01:21:36   - Yeah, I'm lucky that my neighborhoods

01:21:38   have cell towers in them.

01:21:39   Like, from, you know, like, it's able,

01:21:42   it's easily able to see them even.

01:21:44   It's very obvious, so we have great coverage.

01:21:47   But yeah, there's like, you know,

01:21:49   if you like drive a little while,

01:21:51   go to like a few towns over to like the super rich one

01:21:53   and you get no signal whatsoever for anything.

01:21:56   - I mean, I hear you, that's just,

01:21:57   it's such, so different than my lived experience.

01:21:59   Which isn't to say you guys are lying or wrong or anything.

01:22:02   It makes sense, it's just, it's so different

01:22:04   than my lived experience, it's hard to wrap my head around.

01:22:06   - I think it's a different set of,

01:22:08   different set of values depending on where you are.

01:22:10   'Cause in my experience, in my, you know,

01:22:13   small experience in the Midwest, visiting my in-laws,

01:22:16   the ritzier neighborhoods there tend to value things

01:22:20   like having good television and internet and cell coverage

01:22:23   more than they value not seeing cell towers, right?

01:22:26   And just for whatever reason,

01:22:28   if maybe it's old money versus new money,

01:22:30   or maybe it's just a different East Coast,

01:22:31   West Coast attitude, or just a technological bent versus not,

01:22:36   the equations don't, or maybe it's population density,

01:22:38   availability of land, whatever, for whatever reason,

01:22:41   I find it incredibly frustrating in the specific area

01:22:43   that I am up here in New England.

01:22:46   The, you know, the old money, rich people houses

01:22:48   don't have cell towers, and maybe it's because

01:22:50   all the land is already all bought up

01:22:52   and already all developed, so there's no, like,

01:22:54   there's no available place to put the cell tower

01:22:56   that's not literally in someone's backyard,

01:22:58   and no one wants it in their backyard,

01:22:59   they would love it if it was in someone's backyard

01:23:01   five blocks away, but then that person doesn't want it,

01:23:03   it's total nimbyism.

01:23:04   - Yeah, also, like, hills are a huge problem.

01:23:07   Like, so if you have any kind of terrain,

01:23:10   yeah, like you need a lot more cell towers

01:23:12   than you would think, and it makes it even harder.

01:23:14   - Marco, I don't think you ever get to this neck of the woods

01:23:16   but there was somewhere, I wanna say it was maybe 684,

01:23:21   I'm not confident I'm right about that, though.

01:23:23   There was a couple of cell towers

01:23:25   where they put, like, fake, like, needles, like--

01:23:30   - Oh yeah, the cell trees?

01:23:32   - Yeah, yeah, the cell trees.

01:23:33   - Yeah, like, whenever I'm on a long highway drive,

01:23:36   you see those pretty frequently.

01:23:38   - Yeah, 'cause I believe it was the stretch of 684

01:23:41   that I would take away from my parents

01:23:44   when they lived in Connecticut, and I would take it,

01:23:45   you know, down toward the George Washington Bridge

01:23:47   and all that, and I vividly remember

01:23:49   there were a couple of the, yeah, the cell trees.

01:23:52   There are these things that, like, if you only glance,

01:23:55   the top of them looks like a very, very thin,

01:23:57   like Charlie Brown-style, like, you know, needle-based tree

01:24:00   if you only glance at it, but it's like 800 feet taller

01:24:04   than every other thing around it.

01:24:07   - They're way taller than actual trees.

01:24:09   - It's the most preposterous thing I've ever seen.

01:24:11   Oh my gosh, it always made me laugh every time I saw it.

01:24:14   - Yeah, it's like the world's worst toupee.

01:24:16   It's like, you're fooling nobody.

01:24:19   Going back for a minute, just to close out the subject,

01:24:23   how we got into the subject,

01:24:24   about location-tracking ethics within a family,

01:24:29   because it is kind of interesting that, like, you know,

01:24:33   we can see our son's location at all times,

01:24:35   as long as he's wearing his Apple Watch

01:24:36   and the battery is good and the cell signal's good

01:24:37   and everything, the ethics we've established so far,

01:24:40   which is, you know, first established between Tiff and I,

01:24:43   is that location sharing is reciprocal,

01:24:46   so I showed him the Find My app on his watch

01:24:49   and said, "Here, you can see where we are, too."

01:24:52   - Interesting note on that, I repeatedly show this

01:24:54   to my kids, 'cause they're constantly asking

01:24:56   when we're going to pick them up, "Where are you?"

01:24:58   I'm like, "You always know where I am.

01:25:00   "We all share our location.

01:25:02   "Find me."

01:25:03   And no matter how many times I remind them,

01:25:05   I guess it's too much of a hassle for them

01:25:07   to open up to Find My app.

01:25:09   It's not that they don't know at this point.

01:25:11   I have resorted to taking a photo from my perspective

01:25:15   in the car of where I am, hoping that they can see

01:25:18   how I'm by this part of the baseball diamond

01:25:20   and you need to just walk across and come to me,

01:25:22   'cause this is where I'm parked.

01:25:23   (laughing)

01:25:24   And it's like, "Or you can use Find My,

01:25:26   "like our location share."

01:25:27   I thought this was, I didn't know if,

01:25:29   we set it up so long ago, but I just assumed

01:25:31   this is the way family sharing works by default all the time,

01:25:33   is that everyone shares a location already,

01:25:35   but yeah, we totally do that, even though it only ever seems

01:25:38   to work one way where we're constantly trying

01:25:39   to find the kids and they don't care where we are.

01:25:41   (laughing)

01:25:43   And the other rule that we follow is,

01:25:46   so the sharing is reciprocal, so if I can see you,

01:25:48   you can see me, and also that we don't make a habit

01:25:52   of idly checking it, that we only check it

01:25:54   if we need to know for a good reason.

01:25:56   And it doesn't need to be like emergencies only,

01:25:58   it can be like, "Hey, I wonder if Tiff is on her way home

01:26:01   "from the thing she was at, so I know to start cooking dinner."

01:26:04   It could be something like that, but it isn't a thing

01:26:06   that we idly just check for no reason at all,

01:26:09   because that feels a little too invasive.

01:26:11   - Yep, and it is very convenient for the record,

01:26:13   like it is a really neat feature if you're trying

01:26:16   to do something like that, like get dinner on

01:26:17   or whatever the case may be, but yeah,

01:26:19   it definitely comes across as a little stalker-y

01:26:21   on the other end, for sure.

01:26:23   Oh goodness, so Adam seems to definitely like it.

01:26:27   How do the two adults feel about it, Marco?

01:26:30   - I mean, so far so good, it's only been one day,

01:26:33   so maybe I'll do some follow-up on this in the future

01:26:36   after it's been a little while so we can kinda see

01:26:38   how it works in more practice, but so far so good.

01:26:41   - Yeah, I gotta say, I am deeply concerned

01:26:45   about battery life on that device,

01:26:47   because as I've mentioned numerous times,

01:26:51   the battery life on my small Apple Watch Series 5

01:26:56   has never been stellar and is getting considerably worse

01:26:59   now that it's about a year old.

01:27:01   I still have an order to replacement

01:27:02   because I just can't be bothered by the god-awful website.

01:27:06   I'm still allergic to the inside

01:27:08   and I don't wanna go to the Apple Store,

01:27:09   so I might never order one, who knows?

01:27:11   But nevertheless, I am really concerned

01:27:14   about what it would be like to run my watch

01:27:16   on cellular all day long, and perhaps there's some sort of,

01:27:21   some sort of low-power version that the SE uses

01:27:27   or some sort of hardware that's maybe different on the SE,

01:27:30   I don't know, but I would presume and assume

01:27:33   that it's gonna be a real rough battle,

01:27:35   and Adam's probably gonna have to top that thing up

01:27:37   at least once daily.

01:27:38   - We are brought to you this week by Squarespace.

01:27:42   Start building your website today at squarespace.com/ATP.

01:27:46   Enter offer code ATP at checkout to get 10% off.

01:27:49   Make your next move with a beautiful website

01:27:52   from Squarespace.

01:27:54   Squarespace quite simply makes it incredibly easy

01:27:57   to make a beautiful, highly functional,

01:27:59   and incredibly easy to maintain website.

01:28:02   And you need websites for all sorts of stuff these days,

01:28:05   whether it's something simple like putting up

01:28:07   a basic contact page for your business

01:28:09   or a basic portfolio to show off who you are

01:28:11   to your customers or potential employers

01:28:14   or whatever your case may be,

01:28:15   or whether it's something more complicated,

01:28:17   like maybe you wanna host a storefront.

01:28:18   You can sell digital or physical goods on Squarespace.

01:28:21   You can host podcasts on Squarespace.

01:28:23   You can host all sorts of dynamic functionality

01:28:25   like galleries and calendars and events and stuff like that,

01:28:29   all on Squarespace, and it's incredibly easy

01:28:32   to do all of this stuff.

01:28:33   The sites look professionally designed

01:28:35   and have all this functionality,

01:28:37   regardless of your skill level,

01:28:39   and there's no coding required for any of it,

01:28:42   so you don't have to be a programmer.

01:28:43   Now, if you really want to,

01:28:44   there are some pretty advanced features that are there,

01:28:46   but you probably won't need to use them,

01:28:47   and almost no one does.

01:28:49   I don't even use the advanced features

01:28:50   that require any kind of coding.

01:28:51   All this stuff is built in is all no coding required.

01:28:55   You can customize it to your heart's content.

01:28:57   You can match your preferences or your business's branding

01:29:00   or your colors or whatever you need.

01:29:02   You can even design logos right in Squarespace.

01:29:05   Everything's easy to customize the way you want it,

01:29:07   and once you get it running, it's so easy.

01:29:10   They have amazing support if you need any help along the way,

01:29:12   but I bet you won't need it,

01:29:14   'cause it's just super easy to have a site on Squarespace.

01:29:16   You don't have to worry about software upgrades or patches

01:29:18   or keeping your servers up or any of that.

01:29:20   They take care of all of that for you.

01:29:22   See for yourself with a free trial site

01:29:25   at squarespace.com/ATP.

01:29:27   You can start building your site today in free trial mode

01:29:30   with no credit card required,

01:29:31   and you can see for yourself what Squarespace has to offer.

01:29:34   When you decide to sign up,

01:29:35   make sure to head back there to squarespace.com/ATP.

01:29:38   Use offer code ATP to get 10% off your first purchase.

01:29:41   That's squarespace.com/ATP, code ATP.

01:29:44   Make your next move with Squarespace.

01:29:47   - All right, so let's return to Ask ATP

01:29:53   for the first time in a couple of weeks.

01:29:55   Mike Lee Williams says, "I want snapshots of my Mac.

01:29:58   "I have a network attached storage

01:30:00   "that supports BTRFS.

01:30:01   "Is that butter?

01:30:02   "What is the correct colloquial--"

01:30:04   - Some people say butter FS.

01:30:05   I always just say BTRFS.

01:30:06   Who knows how you're supposed to?

01:30:07   - Okay.

01:30:08   "Should I use Time Machine or should I just clone

01:30:10   "using something like Carbon Copy Cloner or Super Duper

01:30:13   "and then take a BTRFS snapshot?

01:30:15   "I ask because a network Time Machine backup

01:30:17   "seems like it has the half-life of like three months max."

01:30:22   John.

01:30:23   - I know a lot of people have problems

01:30:25   with network Time Machine backup,

01:30:26   and maybe I'm just a network Time Machine unicorn,

01:30:29   but I don't.

01:30:30   This is a major complaint for people who have,

01:30:34   especially if it's a third-party

01:30:36   Time Machine network backup.

01:30:37   They're like, "Oh, it works fine,"

01:30:38   but then so frequently it says,

01:30:41   "Your backup could not be verified.

01:30:42   "It must be recreated."

01:30:44   And some people say that happens every week.

01:30:45   Some people say it happens every month.

01:30:47   I've had that happen to me,

01:30:49   but like two times in seven years.

01:30:51   So it's a whole different scale.

01:30:52   And so as far as I'm concerned,

01:30:54   network Time Machine backups are just problem-free,

01:30:57   and that's what I would totally recommend.

01:30:58   Now, what Mike is describing is like,

01:31:00   "Oh, I'm gonna do something clever.

01:31:01   "I'm just gonna do a clone,

01:31:03   "but then I'm gonna use file system features

01:31:05   "to snapshot that clone."

01:31:07   I think that would probably work, assuming, assuming,

01:31:11   BTRFS either has all the features you need

01:31:14   to preserve the metadata that you care about,

01:31:15   or assuming you're using a sparse bundle disk image

01:31:18   or something else that's built on top of the file system,

01:31:19   and what you're actually doing

01:31:20   is snapshotting the disk image,

01:31:22   snapshotting the sparse bundle directory for the disk image.

01:31:25   That can be made to work,

01:31:26   but in general, my recommendation is and remains,

01:31:29   use Time Machine,

01:31:31   because that is Apple's most supported snapshots

01:31:35   of a Mac over time system.

01:31:37   You can recover from it.

01:31:38   You can pick a point in time to recover.

01:31:40   In theory, it should be the best support.

01:31:42   I know people don't have a lot of luck with it,

01:31:44   but I don't think there's anything,

01:31:46   my experience tells me that it's not impossible

01:31:49   to have a good experience with it.

01:31:50   So I say, try Time Machine.

01:31:52   If it's constantly corrupting itself

01:31:54   and there's nothing you can do to fix it,

01:31:56   maybe try rolling your own system with BTRFS

01:31:59   and sparse bundles or whatever you're gonna do,

01:32:01   but I think that's gonna be much harder to deal with.

01:32:04   And when you need to recover,

01:32:06   'cause your whole disk dies and you boot it up,

01:32:08   it's much nicer to be able to say,

01:32:11   connect to a Time Machine thing

01:32:13   and pull the snapshot you want to go.

01:32:15   You can do it the other way.

01:32:16   It will eventually work if you know what you're doing,

01:32:17   but it's trickier.

01:32:18   - I would also add, I've had really good luck

01:32:21   with my Synology network backup over time.

01:32:25   The thing where Time Machine basically fails

01:32:28   and makes you clear it out and rebuild the entire thing,

01:32:31   usually because it thinks it's out of space

01:32:33   when it isn't or whatever,

01:32:35   that happened to me all the time

01:32:37   with almost every previous Time Machine setup

01:32:39   I had ever used until I did the Synology's

01:32:42   hosted network Time Machine thing.

01:32:44   And that works perfectly for me.

01:32:47   And one thing that might make a difference here

01:32:50   is that the way I set that up

01:32:51   is with disk quotas per user using it.

01:32:55   And Apple's, whatever the Time Machine client is on Macs,

01:33:00   it will read disk quota information for network shares

01:33:04   and will obey it.

01:33:05   And for whatever reason, that worked way better

01:33:08   and I never had this kind of failure happen.

01:33:10   Whereas with previous Time Machine backups,

01:33:13   I had that happen about every three months.

01:33:15   That's about right.

01:33:17   - I'm also using Synology,

01:33:18   but I never went the extra step to do the per user quota.

01:33:21   I have multiple users just sharing a volume

01:33:24   with no quotas on it and still no problems.

01:33:27   - Great.

01:33:28   - So like I said, I think it has corrupted itself

01:33:30   maybe three times in seven years,

01:33:32   but it's so beneath my radar

01:33:35   that I just tend not to think about it.

01:33:36   So it could just be a credit to Synology's implementation

01:33:39   of the Time Machine hosting.

01:33:40   It could just be dumb luck,

01:33:41   but it's not impossible is what I'm saying.

01:33:44   - Migurdik Karnigian writes,

01:33:46   "As a soon to be father, I'd like your opinion

01:33:48   "on what the best baby monitor experience is.

01:33:50   "I say experience instead of device or product,

01:33:52   "because whether it's a camera or end app

01:33:54   "or standalone device, I care about the overall experience."

01:33:57   Now you have to consider that the youngest child

01:34:00   of the three of us is just shy of three years old now.

01:34:03   So this information is a bit out of date.

01:34:05   I think I might've heard it from Marco and Tiff,

01:34:09   but I heard from somewhere that you really, really, really,

01:34:13   really do not want an app based thing.

01:34:15   - Yep, that was us.

01:34:16   - Okay, and as soon as you guys described why,

01:34:20   which I will give you a chance to do in just a moment,

01:34:22   it made perfect sense.

01:34:23   Now, again, this is information that,

01:34:27   in the case of the Armin is what, eight?

01:34:29   How old did you say Adam was?

01:34:30   Eight, nine? - Yeah, eight.

01:34:31   - Okay, so it's eight years out of date,

01:34:33   and for me it's three years out of date.

01:34:35   But I am looking at right now in my hands

01:34:38   is our Infinoptix monitor, I think that's right.

01:34:42   I'll put a link in the show notes.

01:34:43   It is a device that you carry around with you

01:34:45   and it shows video and audio,

01:34:47   or it shows video and plays audio

01:34:49   of your kid or kid's rooms.

01:34:51   I really love this one, in particular,

01:34:53   because the model that I have has a standard USB plug

01:34:58   to power the handheld receiver thing.

01:35:02   I don't know if that's still the case today though,

01:35:03   so double check my work on that.

01:35:04   But when I bought it, it was one of those,

01:35:07   the things you would use for like headphones

01:35:09   and like a Kindle, whatever that size is,

01:35:11   I don't care what it's called.

01:35:13   It's one of those standard ones, which is great,

01:35:14   'cause you can plug it into a computer,

01:35:15   you can plug it into a wall wart,

01:35:16   you can plug it into darn near anything.

01:35:18   I'll put a link in the show notes.

01:35:20   Marco, can you tell me why it is

01:35:21   you don't want a WiFi/app-based thing?

01:35:24   - Yes, so this is a common trap that nerds like us

01:35:28   fall into when we have to buy a baby monitor

01:35:31   for the first time, is one of two things.

01:35:34   Either A, let me get the coolest technological one

01:35:38   that is almost always some kind of like service-based one

01:35:41   where it's IP-based and so there's like some kind of

01:35:45   cool Apple-looking camera and then you can either

01:35:48   use their monitor or it just uses your phone

01:35:52   and you can check it from the cloud

01:35:54   and you can even have it, so you can check it

01:35:57   when you're at your friend's house or whatever,

01:35:59   down the street, who knows?

01:36:00   For some reason, if it's like for a baby at home

01:36:02   and it isn't something that requires you to go to jail,

01:36:04   then great, you can check it from there.

01:36:06   Okay, or, you know, pitfall B is you see

01:36:11   how expensive baby monitors are and you're like,

01:36:13   these are just cameras, I can get a cheap IP camera

01:36:17   for X dollars instead, I'll just use an IP camera,

01:36:20   it'll be better and cheaper and I'll view it

01:36:23   from all these different IP camera-based viewing apps

01:36:25   on my phone, so the problem with the former,

01:36:29   the fancy camera, is that whenever you are sending

01:36:33   something out to the internet and back,

01:36:36   you will introduce significant latency and unreliability

01:36:41   and there will be a strong incentive for the service

01:36:44   that you are using to compress the crap out of the video

01:36:47   to save on bandwidth costs and to make it more responsive

01:36:49   and so you end up basically with a latent, unreliable,

01:36:54   crappy video stream.

01:36:56   The problem with the IP camera is that, first of all,

01:37:00   it's just more crap to set up at a time in your life

01:37:03   when that's the last thing you need.

01:37:05   The last thing you need is to have like technical burdens

01:37:09   to deal with and to be tech support for them

01:37:11   when they break and anything that's like fragile

01:37:14   or complicated at all, you don't need that right now.

01:37:17   The other problem with IP camera stuff is that like,

01:37:19   you're still using some kind of phone to view them,

01:37:21   you're limited by the network, you're limited by

01:37:24   any kind of like, you know, whatever the WiFi coverage

01:37:26   in the various relevant rooms might be

01:37:29   or whatever your connectivity setup is.

01:37:31   IP camera viewing apps tend to be terrible as well.

01:37:34   (laughs)

01:37:35   I never found a good one when I briefly had some IP cameras.

01:37:38   So it's not a good world to get into,

01:37:41   it's not as nice as you think it is if you haven't tried it

01:37:44   and it's not great.

01:37:46   And the last thing you want out of a baby monitor

01:37:51   is latency or unreliability because that literally

01:37:55   ruins the entire point.

01:37:56   Not only do you need to trust, you know,

01:38:00   if you're using a monitor, you're using it for a reason,

01:38:02   you wanna see the state of your baby or hear the state

01:38:06   of your baby, which they will usually make clear to you.

01:38:09   If it like freezes or the video is delayed or whatever,

01:38:13   it dramatically reduces the utility of this device

01:38:17   and it calls into question why you're using one at all

01:38:20   if you're gonna have one that has significant delays

01:38:22   or is unreliable at all.

01:38:24   And my experience eight years ago was that the IP based

01:38:28   solutions, including the fancy cameras and everything,

01:38:30   were unreliable and full of latency and had dropouts

01:38:33   and the picture would just freeze for like 30 seconds

01:38:37   or a minute or more and it's like, okay, well then,

01:38:40   you're telling me this is the state of my baby

01:38:42   but it's actually out of date and I have no way to tell that.

01:38:45   That's the last thing you want out of that kind of device.

01:38:48   It's also just really annoying when it's not live,

01:38:52   when there's any latency at all.

01:38:54   You're gonna hear the cry and scream, like the quieter

01:38:57   version from the next floor up when you're downstairs

01:39:00   and then three seconds later you hear the echo,

01:39:02   the louder version out of the monitor and that latency

01:39:05   is really annoying and can create some interesting

01:39:08   feedback loops and so the last thing you want is for

01:39:13   your baby's cry to be made more grating on your ears

01:39:18   and more annoying, this is not the time of your life

01:39:20   when you need that kind of thing.

01:39:23   This is the time of your life when you need very simple

01:39:26   solutions that work every time that ask very little of you.

01:39:30   The regular old style where you just have a camera

01:39:34   microphone thing on one end, you have a portable monitor

01:39:38   of some kind on the other end and they talk over RF

01:39:43   directly in your house with no networking involved,

01:39:47   that is the best kind because it is instant,

01:39:50   there's no latency, it's reliable, way more reliable

01:39:53   than anything IP based or network or internet based.

01:39:57   Usually it's also cheaper, 'cause again all these solutions

01:40:01   that use your phone as a monitor, that might have made

01:40:04   some sense in a world where screens are expensive

01:40:08   but screens haven't been expensive for a long time now.

01:40:10   The regular old setup where you just have a camera

01:40:14   and a screen with a battery behind it that you can plug

01:40:17   into USB or whatever, that's a great setup and none

01:40:20   of those components are expensive.

01:40:22   Those are all very cheap things these days so the actual

01:40:25   cost savings for anything else would be minimal I think,

01:40:28   maybe even negative, so just get the old kind that just

01:40:31   has a camera and a dedicated little handheld monitor thing

01:40:34   and you don't need to involve your phone, you don't need

01:40:36   to involve the internet, you don't need to involve

01:40:38   any kind of weird cloud service or local networking

01:40:41   weirdness or latency or anything like that, this is one

01:40:44   of the things where the old way is actually better.

01:40:47   - There's a classic story in my mom's side of the family

01:40:51   and I don't know if it's true or not but they apparently

01:40:54   when my mom was growing up their family was really,

01:40:57   really close with the family across the street

01:41:00   or maybe around the corner or something like that.

01:41:02   And my mom is like 65 years old now so this was the mid

01:41:07   to late 50s, early 60s and the story that I've been told

01:41:11   numerous times is that what they would do is they would call

01:41:16   from the house that housed the baby to the house

01:41:19   where the parents were hanging out and leave the phone

01:41:22   off the hook in the baby's room and then they would leave

01:41:25   the phone off the hook at the house where they were partying

01:41:28   where hopefully they would hear if the baby was screaming

01:41:31   and then one of them would run back to my mom's house

01:41:35   and help her, one of her younger brothers if necessary.

01:41:38   I don't know if that story's real but it always made me laugh

01:41:41   that that was how they handled it in the 60s was,

01:41:43   oh we'll just call each other because local calls are free

01:41:46   even back then and so that was what they did.

01:41:49   John, before I move on, any thoughts from you?

01:41:51   - Well if you don't mind everyone telling you

01:41:53   that you're a terrible parent and you're gonna kill

01:41:55   your children, there's always the option of attachment

01:41:58   parenting and co-sleeping and other situations

01:42:00   where you don't actually need remote monitoring

01:42:01   for your kids because they're sleeping with you all the time

01:42:03   or some of the time anyway.

01:42:05   My kids are so old that I just have the audio only monitors

01:42:08   so that was a different world.

01:42:11   In today's world, obviously this is speculative,

01:42:12   I don't know what things are but I do now have cameras

01:42:16   in my house and in my opinion the cameras I have,

01:42:19   I have just a bunch of Nest cameras

01:42:20   like the current models.

01:42:22   The reliability of them is fantastic and the latency

01:42:25   I find perfectly acceptable for monitoring children.

01:42:27   I'm not using it to monitor children,

01:42:28   I'm just using it to monitor my house

01:42:29   and occasionally my dog but it's very similar.

01:42:32   I think they're dead simple reliable

01:42:34   and I think the convenience of being able to just look at it

01:42:36   on your phone is super convenient.

01:42:37   That said, I don't have a baby, I don't know what it's like,

01:42:39   I don't know what I would choose.

01:42:41   All I can think of is what I'm used to

01:42:42   which was pure analog RF audio only monitors

01:42:47   which we got for our first child

01:42:48   and we just kept using for our second.

01:42:50   I still have a little bit of PTSD hearing the sort of

01:42:53   staticky amplified cries.

01:42:56   Anything associated with raising infants into toddlerhood

01:43:01   is going to probably, depending on your kid,

01:43:05   be somewhat traumatic for you as a parent.

01:43:07   So choose wisely.

01:43:08   Maybe that's a reason not to use your phone

01:43:10   because now you might start associating your phone

01:43:12   with this, you know, anyway.

01:43:13   Raising kids is hard and I'm not sure

01:43:18   what the best solution is but I think

01:43:19   if the experience you want is the ability to look,

01:43:23   to view and hear your child at any time

01:43:25   in the most convenient way, based on my experience

01:43:28   with the Nest indoor home cameras,

01:43:31   that would have, if that had existed

01:43:33   when my kids were infants, I think that would have

01:43:36   fulfilled my needs perfectly and I wouldn't have minded

01:43:39   all the things Marco talked about

01:43:40   in terms of latency and so on.

01:43:42   - I have Nest cameras, they're not good for this.

01:43:45   There's too much latency.

01:43:46   - Too much latency for you.

01:43:47   I have them in my house, they're fine.

01:43:49   Every time I look at my thing, you're right,

01:43:52   there is lag but it's sufficient.

01:43:54   Like it's never 30 seconds or a minute,

01:43:56   it's like 1.5 seconds.

01:43:58   Even when I'm in a different state,

01:44:00   I can just look at the inside of my house

01:44:02   in essentially real time, the image comes up quickly,

01:44:04   it's high resolution, it's reliable of the internet,

01:44:07   it helps that I have a very fast network

01:44:08   upload connection from my house, right?

01:44:11   That's, it's fine for my needs.

01:44:13   I don't need it to be super duper real time.

01:44:16   But again, I didn't use it with babies

01:44:17   so I don't know how well it works in that scenario.

01:44:20   - Finally, John Metcalf wants to know,

01:44:23   hey, is Marco watching the possible Tesla competition

01:44:26   like the Polestar for future lease shopping?

01:44:29   The Polestar 2 is smaller than the S

01:44:30   but it seems like it could be a proper competitor

01:44:33   to the 3, interested to see where the line goes.

01:44:36   And I would agree with that wholeheartedly.

01:44:37   I'd also like to call out, since this Ask ATP

01:44:40   was asked 14 years ago, MKBHD has done another episode

01:44:46   of, what is it, Autofocus?

01:44:47   Is that the name of his car series?

01:44:49   I believe that's right.

01:44:50   And he did an episode on the Porsche Taycan, Taycan?

01:44:53   I don't know how to pronounce it.

01:44:55   - He doesn't know how to pronounce it either, it's fine.

01:44:57   - Yeah, exactly.

01:44:57   (laughing)

01:44:59   And in fact, when he was tweeting about it

01:45:02   during the editing process or filming process,

01:45:04   he tweeted, boy am I glad I started this car review,

01:45:07   car video series, this Porsche Taycan

01:45:10   is actually a very different car than any Tesla

01:45:13   and just a few lucky people have experienced both

01:45:15   and get to articulate that should be a fun video.

01:45:17   And we'll at least put a link to the video

01:45:19   in the show notes.

01:45:20   I'll also try to dig up a video from Rory Reed,

01:45:22   formerly of Top Gear, who did a test of the Model 3

01:45:26   versus the Polestars 2, which is worth watching.

01:45:29   Both of these videos are like 10, maybe 15 minutes each.

01:45:32   But to answer the question, Marco,

01:45:33   are you keeping your eye on anything?

01:45:35   Or are you Elon or nothing?

01:45:37   - I am very, very happy with the Model S as a car.

01:45:41   I'm less happy with Tesla as a company and Elon as a person,

01:45:44   but I am very happy with the Model S as a car.

01:45:47   It is an incredible car.

01:45:49   There's no other car that I want right now,

01:45:51   even with all these new options.

01:45:53   One of the things I like so much about the Model S

01:45:55   is I love that it's a car-shaped car

01:45:58   and that it has a absolutely massive cargo capacity

01:46:01   because it is a large car-shaped car

01:46:04   with a giant lift-back trunk.

01:46:06   That is something that I think only the Taycan even come,

01:46:09   Taycan, how do you say it, John, was the right way?

01:46:11   - I don't know.

01:46:12   I always forget, I'm pretty sure it's like--

01:46:15   - I thought it was Taycan. - Like tie in your shoe

01:46:17   and con like a con man, but I don't remember.

01:46:20   All I know is that it's not any of the obvious five ways

01:46:24   that occur to you to say it.

01:46:24   I'm pretty sure it's, maybe it's, oh god.

01:46:28   - I think it's Taycan in the car.

01:46:29   Anyway. - We talked about it

01:46:30   on this very show when Porsche officially told us

01:46:34   how it was, but none of us remembered it

01:46:36   and now we just do whatever the first thing

01:46:37   comes into our head is.

01:46:39   - Well, I think Porsche should be used to Americans

01:46:42   mispronouncing all their names.

01:46:43   Anyway, so that I think is what comes closest

01:46:47   to what I'm looking for, but it is worse

01:46:50   at being a car-shaped car with a massive cargo capacity

01:46:54   than the Model S is.

01:46:56   Like I know it's better in other ways

01:46:57   according to some of the reviews,

01:46:58   but it's worse in that way.

01:47:00   And so I actually still am very into the Model S

01:47:04   for what it is, the size and shape and cargo abilities

01:47:09   that it has.

01:47:11   Because of that, I'm not really shopping around still.

01:47:14   But I still have another couple of years

01:47:16   before this lease runs out, so I'll see what happens then.

01:47:20   - And by the way, we talked about many of the alternatives

01:47:26   to this in an extended bootleg version of the thing,

01:47:30   that some people are upset that they didn't get to hear that.

01:47:33   Oh, I have to become an ATB member to hear that.

01:47:35   That is absolutely the type of thing

01:47:36   that we have always cut from this show.

01:47:38   You've always been missing that.

01:47:40   Whether you knew it or not, we always talk about crap

01:47:43   that does not make it into the episode

01:47:45   way after the real episode ends,

01:47:47   right after the after show ends,

01:47:48   you've always been missing that.

01:47:49   But now, if you become an ATB member,

01:47:51   you have the option to get a recording of the live stream,

01:47:55   and you can actually go back and listen to that

01:47:57   if you care about it.

01:47:57   So you shouldn't feel like there's suddenly something

01:47:59   behind a paywall.

01:48:01   This wasn't even behind a paywall before.

01:48:03   It was invisible to you unless you were there

01:48:05   at the live recording or you had someone

01:48:07   who recorded the live stream.

01:48:08   So anyway, hopefully, Casey, we can find that

01:48:11   for the show notes if you want to hear

01:48:13   an extended discussion of, what was it,

01:48:15   I can't even remember the name of it.

01:48:16   What was the hell's the name of that company?

01:48:18   - The Lucid Air?

01:48:19   - Yeah, the Lucid Air, if you want to hear

01:48:20   a discussion of that and a long, extended discussion

01:48:23   of Marco saying how he still likes Tesla.

01:48:25   - No, no, no, I still like the Model S as a car.

01:48:27   Very different from I Like Tesla the Company

01:48:29   or Elon Musk the Person.

01:48:31   - Yeah, yeah, shorthand.

01:48:33   We were talking about all the advantages and disadvantages

01:48:35   of the drivability and the charging network

01:48:38   and this promised car that is not yet shipping

01:48:40   and what it supposedly has.

01:48:41   And since then, Tesla has had an event

01:48:43   about their advances in battery technology

01:48:45   that could change the equation again

01:48:46   because the Lucid Air was exceeding Tesla's current stats

01:48:49   but then Tesla comes out with their new technology

01:48:52   that they say is gonna give their cars more range.

01:48:53   Anyway, if you want to hear that, atb.fm/join,

01:48:57   you can go find the old bootleg and then find that segment

01:49:00   and hear us talk about it way more than any person

01:49:04   should ever want to hear us talk about it.

01:49:06   - Which is why it gets cut from the episode

01:49:07   and has always been cut from the episode.

01:49:09   You're welcome. - Yeah, exactly.

01:49:11   All right, thanks to our sponsors this week,

01:49:14   Squarespace, Customer I/O, and ExpressVPN.

01:49:18   And we will talk to you next week.

01:49:20   (upbeat music)

01:49:23   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

01:49:25   ♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

01:49:28   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:49:30   ♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪

01:49:33   ♪ John didn't do any research ♪

01:49:35   ♪ Marco and Casey wouldn't let him ♪

01:49:38   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:49:40   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:49:41   ♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪

01:49:43   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:49:44   ♪ And you can find the show notes at atp.fm ♪

01:49:49   ♪ And if you're into Twitter ♪

01:49:52   ♪ You can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S ♪

01:49:57   ♪ So that's Casey List M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M ♪

01:50:03   ♪ N-T-M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M-N-S-I-R-A-C ♪

01:50:08   ♪ U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A ♪

01:50:10   ♪ It's accidental ♪

01:50:11   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:50:13   ♪ They didn't mean to accidental ♪

01:50:17   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:50:18   ♪ Tech podcast ♪

01:50:20   ♪ So long ♪

01:50:22   - I wanna understand how USB-C works.

01:50:25   And I don't mean like the ones and zeros way,

01:50:27   but let me try to explain.

01:50:30   I have a USB-C to USB-C cable

01:50:33   coming out of the back of my iMac Pro.

01:50:36   And it stays connected to my iMac Pro always.

01:50:39   And approximately half the time I plug in my iPad

01:50:43   with like the Magic Keyboard,

01:50:44   you know, directly into the Magic Keyboard,

01:50:46   sometimes the iPad itself,

01:50:47   about half the time the iPad will charge

01:50:49   and about half the time it just sits there.

01:50:51   I've always left the one end of the USB-C cable

01:50:55   plugged into the iMac Pro, always.

01:50:57   And only about half the time

01:50:58   will it actually charge the iPad.

01:51:00   But every single time, if I disconnect the iMac Pro side,

01:51:05   so it's already connected to the iPad

01:51:07   and I say, "Oh crap, it's not charging again."

01:51:09   I disconnect the iMac Pro side, connect it again,

01:51:13   immediately the iPad starts charging.

01:51:16   I know very little about this,

01:51:18   but I know enough to know that there's some amount of like

01:51:21   implied priority based on

01:51:24   what's getting plugged into what first.

01:51:27   But I can't for the life of me understand

01:51:30   why this only works sometimes.

01:51:32   So can one of you please explain to me,

01:51:34   how does USB-C work?

01:51:36   Because apparently I don't get it.

01:51:38   - Does anybody know how USB-C works?

01:51:40   - Touche.

01:51:41   - Well, I don't think you need to know

01:51:42   how quote unquote USB-C works here.

01:51:44   But the main thing you have to know

01:51:46   is that on both sides of this,

01:51:48   but especially on the iOS/iPadOS side,

01:51:52   there is software involved

01:51:55   in the successful completion of the task

01:51:57   that you're expecting to happen.

01:51:58   Which is when you want to see it happen,

01:52:00   is you want to see a little lighting bolt appear

01:52:01   over your little battery icon

01:52:03   and you want to see charging begin.

01:52:04   That is not strictly speaking,

01:52:06   just a thing that is defined in the USB spec straight ahead.

01:52:10   There's the software on both ends.

01:52:12   Now we know how reliable the USB stack is

01:52:14   on macOS these days, right?

01:52:16   And then on the flip side of that, even on iOS devices,

01:52:19   I very frequently get into situations

01:52:21   where I'll plug say my phone into a computer

01:52:23   with the lightning cable in this case,

01:52:25   and you'll be like, "Why is my phone not charging?"

01:52:27   And then eventually, 37 seconds later,

01:52:31   oh, boop, and now it's charging.

01:52:33   The software part of it is what I would blame

01:52:35   for all of this.

01:52:36   It's a combination of the USB spec and power delivery,

01:52:39   but also mediated by software control over charging,

01:52:42   specifically on the iOS side,

01:52:43   combined with the software bugs

01:52:45   in the USB stack on the Mac.

01:52:46   I think that totally explains this problem entirely.

01:52:50   Like that because there's software on both ends

01:52:52   and because we know there's weird bugs

01:52:53   on both of those things, you know, you have that.

01:52:55   And the thing that annoys me,

01:52:56   speaking of connecting iOS devices to Macs,

01:52:58   is one of the reasons I'm frequently connecting my phone,

01:53:02   or my iPad in rare cases, to my Macs

01:53:05   is to get photos off of them.

01:53:06   For example, it's on a stand-out family's work,

01:53:08   and I have to do the whole photo library thing, right?

01:53:11   And so what I want to happen is I wanna plug in my phone,

01:53:14   and you plug it in, and I have the thing turned off

01:53:17   where I never wanna plug in my device

01:53:19   and have it automatically launch photos or music or whatever,

01:53:21   'cause I hate that.

01:53:22   It's all turned off, so I have photos already launched.

01:53:25   It's in the foreground.

01:53:26   I plug in my phone, and photos reacts,

01:53:29   and if I click on the device in the sidebar,

01:53:31   it says, "Please unlock your iPhone,"

01:53:33   or "Please unlock your whatever."

01:53:35   By the time I see that screen,

01:53:36   most of the time, my phone is already unlocked.

01:53:39   And it will continue to say,

01:53:40   "Please unlock your phone," for like 67 seconds.

01:53:43   It will just sit there,

01:53:44   and it will just say, "Please unlock your phone."

01:53:45   It took me so long to figure out

01:53:47   that I shouldn't keep disconnecting and reconnecting my phone

01:53:49   and unlocking and doing all that stuff.

01:53:50   Instead, I should just sit there and wait,

01:53:52   because even though it says,

01:53:53   "I can't do anything 'til you unlock your phone.

01:53:54   "Please unlock your phone," it's lying.

01:53:56   It's totally lying. (laughing)

01:53:58   You just let it sit there, and eventually, it says,

01:54:01   "Oh, I guess your phone's unlocked.

01:54:03   "Here, here are your photos."

01:54:04   It takes forever, because I have a ton of photos,

01:54:07   but the UI absolutely lies to you,

01:54:09   and if you take it seriously and try to solve the problem

01:54:12   by unplugging various ends and putting it back in

01:54:14   and trying to launch the Photos app on your phone

01:54:16   before you unlock it, and just, it's, forget it.

01:54:19   It's all filled with lies.

01:54:20   And I think that's the same type of thing,

01:54:21   where it's like, "I made the hardware connection.

01:54:24   "Why is the software thing not happening?"

01:54:26   It's because on both ends,

01:54:28   there's some kind of software mediation

01:54:29   of the hardware connection,

01:54:31   and to get all the dots to connect

01:54:33   and the stuff to flow takes a little while.

01:54:35   I think Photos really isn't aware

01:54:37   that my phone has been unlocked,

01:54:38   because the phone hasn't told it

01:54:39   through whatever software-mediated protocol

01:54:42   that exists between Photos itself specifically and my phone.

01:54:45   So, yeah, that's, and I can't imagine

01:54:48   how regular people deal with this,

01:54:50   because if they're staring at a screen for a minute

01:54:52   that says, "Please unlock your phone,"

01:54:53   and their phone is already unlocked,

01:54:54   they're gonna do the same thing I used to do,

01:54:55   which is like, "I guess I'll unplug it and try replugging,"

01:54:57   and you'll never make it that way.

01:54:59   You have to just unlock, plug it in, unlock it,

01:55:01   and put it on your desk and walk away,

01:55:03   and then come back later and be like,

01:55:04   "Oh, there's my Photos."

01:55:06   - Yeah, it's just frustrating.

01:55:07   That being said, even though USB-C does have its problems,

01:55:11   and Marco, you've been banging this drum for a while,

01:55:13   I am very ready for the all USB-C lifestyle.

01:55:17   Bring on the iPhone 12 with USB-C.

01:55:19   I'm ready.

01:55:20   - Oh, that would be amazing.

01:55:22   Honestly, I-- - It's not gonna happen.

01:55:23   - I don't think so either.

01:55:24   - They're just taking away all the cables.

01:55:25   Isn't that the predominant rumor,

01:55:26   that the iPhone will never go USB-C?

01:55:28   It'll go right from Lightning to nothing?

01:55:30   - That was one of the rumors.

01:55:32   I haven't heard about that recently,

01:55:34   but I'll tell you one thing.

01:55:35   If that is the plan, I'm not excited about it. (laughs)

01:55:39   - Yeah, same. - Yeah, I don't think

01:55:40   there was a rumor for this year,

01:55:41   but I think it was like, "Nope, that's the future.

01:55:42   "It's gonna be Lightning, Lightning, Lightning,

01:55:44   "Lightning iPhone 12," and then all of a sudden, nothing.

01:55:46   - Yeah, I mean, you know, Apple changes their minds

01:55:48   sometimes on things, and sometimes these rumors are wrong,

01:55:50   and so who knows what will happen,

01:55:52   but I think the most likely scenario

01:55:56   for this year's iPhones are Lightning.

01:55:59   I don't think they're going to change that.

01:56:01   I wish they would.

01:56:02   I wish they would go USB-C, but I just,

01:56:05   I don't have high hopes.

01:56:05   - Yeah, I think that the iPhone 12 case

01:56:07   already leaked, didn't it?

01:56:08   I tried to save a link to it,

01:56:10   so I always like to save the link to those leaks

01:56:12   just so when the phone does come out,

01:56:13   I can look back at them and say,

01:56:14   "Was this leak right or not?" (laughs)

01:56:16   But the cases have leaked for most of the iPhones

01:56:18   for the past many years, like the actual literal part,

01:56:21   and if you look at it and then the phone comes out

01:56:23   and you look at that part's leak,

01:56:24   you're like, "Yep, that was it."

01:56:25   You look at the iFixit teardown,

01:56:26   and you can tell the inside little flanges

01:56:28   are all exactly the same, like totally leaked.

01:56:31   So I, but I don't recall in that leak,

01:56:34   if that leaked case had had USB-C,

01:56:36   it would have been a big to-do, and there was no big to-do.

01:56:39   I think it was just like, "Yep, flat sides.

01:56:40   "Here it is, iPhone 12."

01:56:42   - I am all in on the flat sides too, though.

01:56:44   - Yeah, that's true.

01:56:46   - I'm kind of dreading the flat sides.

01:56:47   I know we haven't talked about this too much,

01:56:49   but I've been talking about it in the context of the iPad.

01:56:51   I always have cases on my phones,

01:56:53   and flat sides make for fatter cases, right?

01:56:56   The slim, you know what I mean?

01:56:57   Like, that's why I was talking,

01:56:58   that's why I mentioned on Twitter, like,

01:57:00   I was thinking like, what would it be like

01:57:01   to have an iPhone 12 bumper, right?

01:57:04   'Cause flat sides, hey, you can put a bumper

01:57:06   on a flat side thing, and then, you know,

01:57:08   gives you some protection with a little bit slimmer

01:57:10   of a case, but it just, it does make it fat, I don't know.

01:57:13   I'm probably not gonna use, this is my year, by the way,

01:57:16   which is why I care about this.

01:57:17   I'm getting the iPhone 12 or whatever when it comes out.

01:57:20   - Congratulations in advance.

01:57:22   - Yeah, so I don't know what I'm gonna do.

01:57:24   I don't know how, and the thing is,

01:57:26   I won't be able to just go to a store

01:57:27   and feel how they feel in the cases.

01:57:29   Just, I'm gonna be buying this thing blind

01:57:31   and crossing my fingers.

01:57:33   - Yep, that's what we all do, usually.

01:57:35   We're not patient.

01:57:36   Not most of us, anyway.

01:57:38   [beeping]

01:57:40   [BLANK_AUDIO]