393: We’re the Bit Company


00:00:00   I have more issues than that. You can see in the after show. I can tell you about them if you want.

00:00:05   Oh no, I just saw what it's labeled in the show notes.

00:00:08   Oh no. Oh no.

00:00:11   Now I can't wait to get there.

00:00:13   Yeah, we gotta hurry this along. We got a pile of follow-up to get through. Should we just...

00:00:17   All right, hey, Apple did a bunch of stuff and they're d*cks. Let's go. After show.

00:00:20   All right, thanks to Linode, Mint Mumble, and Backblaze and our members. Okay, so John, let's talk after show.

00:00:27   Can't rush. Gotta go through the whole show.

00:00:30   We have a format.

00:00:31   Ostensibly.

00:00:33   Uh, hey, all joking aside, I don't know what to say or what we should say or if we should say,

00:00:47   but I think we should say something to reiterate. Hey, black people are people too. Black lives do

00:00:55   indeed matter and it would be super cool if like police stopped attempting to murder them all the time.

00:01:00   Not just attempting, actually murdering.

00:01:03   And often, and often succeeding in murdering them all the time. Like, why is this still a thing?

00:01:09   I just, I just, I know I'm being incoherent and I apologize because I feel wholly unqualified to

00:01:18   talk about any of this, but it's, well, I was going to say it's flared up again, but it never really

00:01:24   went away. It's just people are paying attention again. And I just, I feel like it would be wrong

00:01:30   not to recognize and reiterate that I speak for all three of us in saying that we believe that

00:01:37   everyone, irrespective of the color of their skin or where they come from or what they believe,

00:01:44   everyone is a person. Everyone's life is valuable and it is inappropriate for any police officer to

00:01:52   unilaterally decide to end somebody's life in almost every circumstance. And, and I'm really

00:01:59   disgusted that this is still a debate that we have to have and still something that we need to talk

00:02:03   about. And I don't know, Marco, if you need to cut all this out because I'm making no sense, I totally

00:02:06   understand. But I feel like I need to, at least for me, say that this grosses all three of us out

00:02:13   deeply. We're really upset by it and we want to reiterate again, black lives matter.

00:02:21   Yeah, this is not something that's going to just go away. Like it's not, I mean, that's part of the

00:02:28   horrible insidious nature of racism and of, you know, horrible police culture and,

00:02:36   and, you know, misconduct and everything. Like that, it doesn't just go away with a couple of

00:02:42   weeks of being in the news. Like it's a, it's a systemic, deeply rooted problem with lots of

00:02:48   facets that all have to be addressed. And it's good that people are still protesting. It's good that

00:02:55   this is still, you know, on people's minds enough to actually make noise about it because it's not

00:02:59   solved. It didn't get solved in, what was it, June? It didn't get solved because it can't get

00:03:05   solved that quickly. It's a very complicated set of problems. And this is not news to black people.

00:03:11   They know, they know very well, too well, that this is not something that's just going to go

00:03:17   away in two seconds. And so I think it's important that we keep the spotlight on this, you know,

00:03:24   keep the spotlight on any kind of racism or bias or violence that we see like this, that,

00:03:31   that we don't let up. We don't like move on to the next hot thing in the news and forget about

00:03:39   all this stuff. That's, that's still very much a problem and it's not going to have a quick or

00:03:42   easy fix, but we shouldn't give up and move on just because something else happened.

00:03:47   Jared I had to look this up because I didn't know the source and I didn't get the exact wording. I

00:03:51   didn't know the exact wording off the top of my head, but here's Frederick Douglass. This always

00:03:54   comes to mind when I see these things. "Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did

00:03:58   and never will. Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found the exact

00:04:03   measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them." So yeah, we can't be quiet.

00:04:08   Trenton Larkin Yeah, indeed. All right. And our hearts are obviously

00:04:13   out for everyone who is, who is living this. I mean, we are, the three of us are very lucky

00:04:18   for a plethora of different reasons, but in no small part because of the color of our skin. And

00:04:22   that's really kind of messed up, isn't it? If you think about it, like it's just, it's just wrong

00:04:26   that that's even an issue. But here we are. We have a whole bunch of follow up to go through.

00:04:30   In fact, I'll be impressed if we make it through the follow up and anything beyond that.

00:04:36   But a lot of this stuff I think is important within the sphere of our little world. It's

00:04:41   not important compared to what we just talked about, but it's important for, you know,

00:04:44   our little corner of the universe. First, and maybe not importantly at all, I was going to say

00:04:49   most importantly, but that's not true. But first off, I'd like to just briefly mention a couple

00:04:53   things about our post show neutral last week. John "Slick" Baumgartner First and least importantly.

00:04:57   Trenton Larkin Yes, exactly right. We, I forgot to mention,

00:05:00   we forgot to mention, one of the advantages of driving a stick is that you can bump or push

00:05:05   start it, which is to say, in certain circumstances, particularly with older cars, where a lot of this

00:05:12   was less computerized, you can actually push the car, physically push the car or, you know, send

00:05:17   it down a hill, and then pop the clutch if you're in second gear and cause that to start the car.

00:05:23   And I'm leaving out a few details here. But that's a really neat thing that we didn't mention that I

00:05:27   think you should look into if you're at all interested in that sort of thing. Additionally,

00:05:32   I think a lot of people and maybe this was our fault, I didn't listen back to the episode, but

00:05:36   a lot of people took what we were saying, John and I particularly was saying as this is the only

00:05:40   proper way to drive a stick. And that certainly was not my intention. And I don't think it was

00:05:46   John's either. We were saying, hey, you know, we were asked, what are some ways you can level up,

00:05:50   you know, being a driver of a manual transmission car? And here's some things you can consider,

00:05:55   you can consider engine braking, you can consider heel toe, and things of that nature. A lot of

00:05:59   people seemed very fired up that we thought that heel toe is required. No, of course not.

00:06:04   Absolutely not. But it's just something that you can consider if you would like to level up driving

00:06:10   a stick. So any thoughts on that, John? I feel like people in Europe just need us to acknowledge

00:06:16   that yes, we know manual transmission cars are more common there. I guess that's not clear from

00:06:21   the history of the show. But maybe we didn't mention enough. We know there's more than there.

00:06:24   I wish there was more here. But there's not. We live in a very automatic field world. But anyway,

00:06:30   lots of people from Europe and other areas told us not only stick shift transmission is

00:06:33   very common there, but you get a different kind of license if you can't drive one, you get like

00:06:37   a more limited license. And a lot of the things that we were talking about, I know you just like

00:06:41   Casey like, oh, these are things you don't have to do. But some of the listeners were going to

00:06:45   tell us if you don't do, for example, downshifting or engine braking, you will fail the driving test

00:06:49   in their country. So it's a big wide world out there. But anyway, here I am in America

00:06:54   with my stick shift cars, one of the last holdouts. You and me both, my friend. Moving on,

00:07:01   an Ask ATP last week was with regard to design resources for developers. So, you know, hey,

00:07:07   I'm a developer who wants to make better designs, but I'm not innately capable of it. What can I do?

00:07:12   And Jesse Martinez wrote in and wrote, I'm a technically minded designer that loves

00:07:16   supporting developers as a hobby. There are a bunch of people like me lurking on subreddits like

00:07:21   UI_design, we'll put a link in the show notes, where we help improve people's designs. There

00:07:25   have been several occasions where I've taken on unpaid app redesigns by developers following

00:07:29   Reddit interactions. And then additionally, a handful of people recommended, I have no

00:07:35   experience with either of these things, neither UI design nor a couple of people that recommended

00:07:40   refactoring UI, which is at refactoringui.com. Again, it'll be in the show notes, which apparently is,

00:07:46   learn how to design awesome UIs by yourself using specific tactics explained from a developer's point

00:07:51   of view. So that is something you can check out as well. And we'll put it in the show notes.

00:07:55   Jared Ranerelle That was more than just a few people. That was the most recommended.

00:07:59   Jared Ranerelle Yeah, that got so many reactions, responses that

00:08:03   endorsed it or mentioned it that I haven't had a chance to look at it yet. But I think we,

00:08:07   I think I definitely have to now because of just the volume of recommendations I got.

00:08:11   Jared Ranerelle Yeah, same.

00:08:12   I looked at it a little bit like, and I think the reason it got so many recommendations is because

00:08:16   it's like broken down into bite-sized pieces. It's not like you have this big thing dumped on your

00:08:20   head. Like you can go there for 30 seconds, click on one thing and learn something you didn't know

00:08:24   about design and be like, wow, I learned something and it took like 30 seconds, right? I don't know

00:08:29   how deep that rabbit hole goes and how much content there is there. But yeah, I would suggest checking

00:08:34   it out. It seems like an easy to consume resource that a lot of people have benefited from because

00:08:39   the people who are recommending it have used it and they say I did this thing and it helped me

00:08:44   with my apps, you know, maybe in just a couple small ways, but even that feels good.

00:08:47   Jared Ranerelle We are sponsored this week by Mint Mobile.

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00:10:15   Moving on, Jason Stanfill writes, "As a Fortnite player, I thought I should mention that there's

00:10:23   a deadline of sorts with regard to the whole Epic Apple thing. Fortnite has seasons that last a

00:10:28   couple of months. Each season has an updated map and the goal of getting to level 100. You start at

00:10:32   one each new season. The current season ends as we record this tomorrow, which is Thursday, the 27th

00:10:38   of August. Each new season requires an update. Without being able to update Fortnite on iOS,

00:10:43   it will become virtually useless at that point, which I did not know and I appreciate. I think

00:10:48   Jason was the first to write in about it, but certainly others have written about it as well.

00:10:51   I knew that and should have mentioned it because Destiny and many, many other games use the same

00:10:55   model. In fact, Destiny was a late adopter of this model. It has lots of different names,

00:10:58   but the idea is to keep the game fresh, that there's some kind of cycle according to the

00:11:05   calendar where everyone gets reset back to a certain position or there's a progression.

00:11:09   It doesn't really matter. Either there's a new progression up to a higher level or you get reset

00:11:12   and then you work your way through this ladder during the course of the season and you get a

00:11:17   bunch of stuff during the ladder. Anyway, it's a way to keep people engaged. But what that means is

00:11:21   there is a timed cycle for new content. And in the case of Fortnite, as we'll see in a little bit,

00:11:27   it's not just a low bit of new content. It's like if you are not on the same season as everyone

00:11:31   else, you can't even play with them. But we'll get to that a couple items lower. Lots of Epic stuff

00:11:35   in the follow-up. Surprise. So Epic has said, "Apple is blocking Fortnite updates and new

00:11:41   installs on the App Store and has said they will terminate our ability to develop Fortnite for

00:11:44   Apple devices. As a result, Fortnite's newly released Chapter 2 Season 4 update, which is

00:11:49   apparently version 14, will not release on iOS and macOS on August 27th." Sad trombone.

00:11:55   And macOS. Now, Fortnite for macOS you download from the web. There's no App Store stopping you

00:12:03   there. But Epic, for some reason that may or may not make sense, is also saying, "Yeah, and if you

00:12:09   play Fortnite on your Mac, you're not getting the new season either." I don't think there's a

00:12:15   technical reason for that to be the case, but there may be a kind of "screw you" reason or a

00:12:21   legal reason. Anyway, we'll continue. But that's just bad news if you play this on the Mac, that

00:12:26   you're also getting sideswiped by this whole iOS incident. Even though there's nothing stopping

00:12:31   Epic from putting, I think, from just putting the new Mac version up on their website and you are

00:12:36   pulling it down or updating or I don't even know if it updates in place. Whatever. That's kind of

00:12:41   bad. Indeed. The Verge writes, "Players on iPhone, iPad, and Mac will also lose cross-play Fortnite

00:12:47   multiplayer with non-Apple platforms Epic confirms to The Verge. That means that players on Apple

00:12:53   platforms will be stuck on the current version of Fortnite and they'll only be able to play with one

00:12:56   another." Womp womp. Yeah, so they won't have all the new stuff for the new season, and they can't

00:13:02   even play with the people who do, so I guess they can play with each other if you still have the

00:13:06   game. And maybe keeping the Mac on the old version too means that the Mac people will be able to play

00:13:10   with the iPhone people, and that makes the pool of people bigger so there's more players for matchmaking.

00:13:15   I don't even know the logic behind it, but anyway, that's, yeah, that's, these are the sort of,

00:13:20   we talked about this before, like, well, as this court case winds on, Epic's got this, you know,

00:13:26   this non-compliant version of Fortnite in the App Store that lets people buy things bypassing

00:13:31   Apple's in-app purchase system, but the viability of that thing rapidly diminishes once it's not

00:13:39   keeping up with the rest of the players, and I don't even know if there's going to be that many,

00:13:43   you know, normally new seasons come with new things to buy with those V-Bucks, so maybe you can still

00:13:47   buy old stuff with the V-Bucks, but the value of having Fortnite on the store for as long as this

00:13:52   court case lasts is very diminished by the fact, by the seasonal model.

00:13:56   - Yeah, and, you know, a couple people are pointing out in the chat, you know, maybe it's

00:14:00   with regard to code signing on the Mac as well. - We'll get to that in a little bit in the follow

00:14:05   up, but right now, as we're sitting here right now, I believe there is nothing stopping Epic from

00:14:11   properly signing the Mac OS version, like on August 26th, they still have their developer

00:14:16   account, and I think they could sign the new version of Fortnite and give it to Mac users.

00:14:21   In the, you know, weeks or months in the future, that may change, but anyway, we'll keep going.

00:14:27   There's more on this later. - Oh, so three hours ago, Tim Sweeney writes,

00:14:30   "Apple has said that they will revoke all of Epic's Apple SDK access for game development

00:14:34   on Friday. If they do that, we won't be able to update Fortnite on the Mac. We understand from

00:14:38   the court that Unreal Engine and other non-game efforts will continue to have SDK access." Again,

00:14:42   this is three hours ago as we record this from Tim Sweeney himself. - But today's Wednesday,

00:14:46   not Friday. - Hey, I'm just telling you. - That's what I'm saying. Like, they, I mean,

00:14:50   I understand the whole, anyway, we'll get to it, the whole, you know, app store versus your entire

00:14:56   developer account. That's a whole different thing. - All right, so tell me, John, about Epic console

00:15:01   makers and corporate relationship management, Marco's favorite thing in the world. - That's

00:15:05   such a great phrase. - Nutbunny's on Twitter. By the way, if I use your weird Twitter name,

00:15:10   it's probably because I couldn't find your real name or you didn't have a real name listed or

00:15:14   your real name is too obscene to read on the air. But anyway, Nutbunny's on Twitter correctly found

00:15:18   the thing I was trying to think of the last show, which is like, I know Epic has sparred with

00:15:22   console makers over issues like this too. And my example is just like the console makers had found

00:15:26   a way to work out their differences without triggering in a lot more with Epic. So we'll

00:15:33   put a link in the show notes to two examples of during the flare up that I was thinking of,

00:15:38   and it's related to cross-play. So here's an article from March, 2018. It says, Microsoft

00:15:42   says they're working with Epic on possible Fortnite cross-play for Xbox One. Cross-play is when

00:15:46   people on a particular platform, like people on Xbox are able to play Fortnite with people who are,

00:15:52   who have Fortnite for the PlayStation, right? Obviously console makers, especially the dominant

00:15:58   console maker don't want that to happen because they want you to get a PlayStation and get Fortnite

00:16:04   and tell your friends, Hey, you should play Fortnite with me. And you, and they say, Oh,

00:16:08   well, the only way you can play Fortnite with me is you have to get a PlayStation, right?

00:16:11   And so they want more people to get PlayStations. But if you're, if you're just a customer,

00:16:15   that's not good for you. You want to be able to play Fortnite, even if your friend already has an

00:16:18   Xbox, you don't have to tell your friend, Oh, you have to buy a whole new console, right?

00:16:20   This is still a problem on destiny, by the way, I have friends who play destiny on Xbox,

00:16:24   and I can't play with them because I play destiny on PlayStation. That's supposedly changing next

00:16:28   year. But anyway, that's what cross play is. Epic obviously wants cross play to be a thing,

00:16:32   because the more people can play with each other, the more likely a group of friends with different

00:16:36   consoles at home are to get Fortnite and become customers and all play the game together. It's

00:16:41   actually surprisingly difficult to get any kind of reasonable size group of friends to sort of

00:16:46   decide on mass to get the same console. Not most people don't buy every single console.

00:16:51   Most people just buy one. And, you know, in the current, depending on the console generation,

00:16:56   there's usually one console that is more popular than other, but it's still significant percentage

00:17:01   of people are gonna end up with the other console, right? So here is a couple months later,

00:17:04   in September 2018, an article that says Fortnite cross play on PS4 ushers in a new era of the

00:17:10   console wars. And in the in the body of the Texas, after months of bullish denials, Sony capitulated

00:17:17   and will soon allow PS4 players to link up with people on Xbox, which in mobile platforms,

00:17:21   right? This is a thing that epic wanted that the console makers didn't. And behind the scenes,

00:17:28   much pressuring and arguing and perhaps even exchanges of money and promises and things

00:17:32   happened. And eventually, essentially, epic won that battle and force both console makers to

00:17:37   enable cross play. Now, Microsoft probably wanted to enable cross play because there are fewer Xbox

00:17:43   players than PlayStation players. They're in the minority. And so they don't want, you know,

00:17:47   those people to feel like, oh, well, you know, law of averages, most of my friends play Fortnite on

00:17:52   PS4, or, you know, whatever. And I feel left out with my weird Xbox, so I gotta get a place in it.

00:17:58   But Sony was the big holdout of saying, we're dominating this generation, why should we

00:18:02   allow Xbox players to play with us? Anything we can get to encourage even more, you know,

00:18:05   we want to really lean on them when we're in the lead. But the end result was, epic basically won

00:18:11   that and got cross play, at least for their game and a few other games across all consoles. And

00:18:16   that in turn opened the door for other, you know, vendors like other software makers like Bungie,

00:18:20   to eventually work towards doing cross play as well. Like for the longest time,

00:18:25   they didn't even mention it. And then when epic pulled this off, bungees, I think, started to get

00:18:29   the idea that, you know, this is the thing that we can do. And they started negotiating with the

00:18:33   console makers. Anyway, this is an example of corporate relationship management. There's

00:18:38   something that these console makers were doing that was clearly bad for users,

00:18:42   like not being able to buy comics and the comixology app on iOS for some strange reason.

00:18:46   Why can't I play with a friend on Xbox? It's the same freaking game, right? And the other two

00:18:52   parties were the platform vendor and the third party application maker. And they were fighting

00:18:57   with each other over this. And in the end, the situation was worked out such that apparently,

00:19:02   the console makers and epic all came to an agreement that they can live with,

00:19:05   and the users got the benefit. That's corporate relationship management. Apple should go to that

00:19:09   school. Michael O'Brien

00:19:12   Microsoft has weighed in that they support a portion of epics injunction. What?

00:19:17   John Wall, Jr Speaking of relationship management, hey, Microsoft, buddy pal,

00:19:21   remember we worked out that deal where, you know, well, we sold you Gears of War, and you paid us a

00:19:26   lot of money to develop stuff for your platform. And we, you know, this is the money going back

00:19:30   and forth between epic and all these companies, a whole bunch doesn't mean they're super big

00:19:33   friends, it just means they know that they need each other. And in this case, Microsoft, you know,

00:19:38   filed this brief that said, like, they didn't say anything about the App Store or anything about

00:19:42   that. But it said, basically, Apple threatening to revoke app epics developer, you know, account,

00:19:50   basically stopping them from developing the Unreal Engine and everything. That's bad for us, because

00:19:54   we Microsoft also have a bunch of games from third party developers that use the Unreal Engine. And

00:20:01   anything that damage the damages the viability of Unreal Engine in the market also potentially

00:20:05   damages games that people are making for our stuff, because it's well, we were going to use

00:20:09   Unreal Engine, but now there's all this doubt around it. So maybe we have to retool and use

00:20:12   a different engine. Or if we if we if we make it with this engine, maybe you have to pay us

00:20:16   more money, because now we can't we can't ever port this to Apple platforms, because you know,

00:20:20   Apple won't allow it on there. So suddenly, the stuff we're developing is less valuable to us. So

00:20:23   we have to renegotiate our agreement. So that's why Microsoft is chiming in here. Right? You know,

00:20:28   I don't think they're super buddy buddy with epic, but they recognize when their interests are

00:20:33   aligned. It's bad for everybody in the industry. It to some degree, if Unreal Engine becomes

00:20:39   unviable on Apple platforms, because anyone developed the whole point is these engines is

00:20:44   develop a game on this engine, and potentially put it on multiple platforms.

00:20:48   Trenton Larkin And then as we record, it was a day or two back

00:20:52   that a judge has ruled in the Apple epic temporary restraining order. And I think you will probably

00:20:59   have more to say on this. But my understanding is that Apple cannot prevent epic from doing work

00:21:07   that relates to Unreal Engine. So in support of, you know, other companies and stuff like that,

00:21:12   but they are perfectly allowed to tell epic to go outside and lay hide and go screw themselves

00:21:18   when it comes to Fortnite. Since epic made that mess, and they made it for themselves, they get

00:21:23   to clean it up themselves. So that seems to be the short, short version, which I think makes sense.

00:21:29   I don't know. I keep going back and forth on all this. And I probably will for a while. But I think

00:21:33   that that makes sense to me. Yeah, I mean, I don't know all the legal stuff. But this is the type of

00:21:38   thing where Apple was going to make changes. You know, they had a deadline for terminating the

00:21:43   account, and they pulled the app or whatever. And epic did whatever the thing you do in court,

00:21:47   this basically says, "Judge, tell us like before we're going to have a court case eventually,

00:21:51   those things take forever. But before that happens, like while we're waiting for the court case to

00:21:56   finish, stop Apple from doing these things that damage us." And epic, of course, said,

00:22:02   "We want our app back in the App Store. And we want not to have our account date." Yeah,

00:22:06   epic asked for everything. And the judge said, "Some of your requests are reasonable." Apple,

00:22:10   where's the quote? Let's see, this is a paraphrase of the judge's opinion during the hearing.

00:22:17   "With respect to Unreal Engine, that seems like an overreach. The contract with Epic International,"

00:22:21   I'll get to that in a second, "is not in breach, even if the contract with Epic Games is." She

00:22:25   says that it looks retaliatory to her. So the judge thought, as we said, that Apple was being

00:22:31   a bully. And this is like a retaliation for, you know, the actual issue is let's talk about

00:22:35   Fortnite and what it did wrong and everything like that. But just because Apple can punish Epic in

00:22:40   this way, it seemed like it was just retaliatory. So again, this is not a decision about like,

00:22:45   what is going to happen? This is just while we figure out what's going to happen, while this

00:22:48   court case winds on and on. For now, Apple, you can't kill Epic's developer account. Now, that's

00:22:56   why I'm confused by the Tim Sweeney thing because I know this temporary restraining order, you know,

00:23:00   this isn't a decision on anything. It just says, while we figure out what the real decision is

00:23:04   going to be on these things, Apple can't terminate the account. That's my understanding of it anyway.

00:23:09   So I'm not sure why Tim Sweeney still says, "Oh, they said they're going to take away our stuff."

00:23:13   The nuance that in this decision, we'll put PDF links if you want, they're actually possible to

00:23:19   read. Like it's in regular English and not weird legally, so you can actually read them and

00:23:22   understand it, is that there actually is a separate legal entity for Unreal Engine. And there's these

00:23:29   companies with different names that, you know, combine them or whatever. And anyway, Apple's

00:23:33   argument is that Unreal Games, Unreal International, we understand this is all the same company behind

00:23:39   the scenes. And maybe you have two different developer accounts, but as far as we're concerned,

00:23:42   we take it as all the same thing. And the judge's opinion is like, "Yeah, that's whatever. I

00:23:47   understand what you're saying, but your beef is with this particular game Fortnite that broke

00:23:52   your rules. You can't just sort of do this, you know, and now we'll do everything bad we can

00:23:57   possibly do to you to retaliate for it, at least not until some sort of court decision comes down

00:24:01   and that's going to take a while." Right. And some other interesting facts out of the arguments that

00:24:05   lawyers put forth. I would suggest reading Sarah Jung's tweet thread about this because she's

00:24:11   there just reporting what the different lawyers say so you can kind of hear their arguments.

00:24:15   And one of the arguments from one of Apple's lawyers, Richard Doran, he said, and I think

00:24:22   it's also a power phrase, "Most of Epic's business has nothing to do with iOS. The iOS platform is

00:24:27   about 12% of Epic's revenue. Most of their platforms are elsewhere. Epic only went mobile

00:24:31   in 2018 and they did so on Android and iOS." All right. So that was one of the questions of like,

00:24:35   can Epic afford to just stick this out and say, "We're not going to fix our game. We're not going

00:24:42   to put an app or just back. We're just going to wait until we see the result of this court case."

00:24:46   Right. Even if our season ends and it becomes useless, not useless, but much less useful for

00:24:51   people on Apple's platforms. Mobile gaming is huge. Mobile gaming, I think, is the majority

00:24:56   of gaming revenue at this point, like globally. Right. But as far as Epic's concerned, they

00:25:01   started as a PC developer and became PC and consoles and only recently entered mobile. So

00:25:07   even though iOS and mobile are both huge, iOS specifically is only 12%. And that's, I mean,

00:25:14   that's a big chunk of revenue, but it's not like it's 70% of their revenue or it's not even 50%.

00:25:19   So that I think explains, I thought it was much more of their revenue. I didn't realize that their

00:25:24   entry into mobile was so early. And presumably Apple's lawyers would know how much it is of

00:25:29   their revenue because they know how much they pay Epic and they know how much Epic's revenue is from

00:25:33   their filings and they can figure it all out. But anyway, tidbits like that are littered throughout

00:25:38   this very short, maybe like six or seven page PDF. So you should check it out.

00:25:43   Dr.

00:25:43   Kyle Dacuyan It just makes me upset. I just, I hate, every time

00:25:49   Apple in any way, whether it's a lawyer or one of their execs or a stupid study they do on the

00:25:56   website, every time they try to defend their behavior around app store rules and money hoarding,

00:26:02   they basically set developers on fire. They have such incredibly tone deaf characterizations and

00:26:10   phrasing, you know, like their thing last month about, you know, or whenever that was, but the

00:26:14   hey about like how they didn't contribute to the app store with Basecamp. Like the wording they

00:26:19   choose to use, the arguments they choose to make, it makes me ashamed to be a fan of this company.

00:26:25   And it makes me extra ashamed to be a developer for this company and for this app store. And

00:26:31   I love Apple so much in so many other ways for so many other reasons. We're all such big fans of

00:26:38   them. And it hurts me to see this company that I'm such a big fan of, and that I'm so involved with,

00:26:46   be such a jerk in this other way. Like they have such an incredible failure to read the room.

00:26:53   They have such an incredibly like tone deaf and a flat out wrong view of developers and their role

00:27:01   in the app store and the app store's role in contributing to the iPhone. It makes me so upset

00:27:09   to see any of this stuff. And they just keep digging and digging and digging. Apple's arguments,

00:27:14   and I'm not even talking so much about like the particulars against Epic, because Epic's being a

00:27:20   jerk in different ways too. I don't care about Epic. That's not the thing. I'm talking more

00:27:25   broadly about their incredibly increased aggression towards in-app purchase in the last few months and

00:27:33   what they did with the WordPress app. That's terrible. Apple has been so much more aggressive

00:27:42   in general, seemingly in the last year or so, and especially in the last six months,

00:27:47   around like squeezing more and more out of in-app purchase exceptions and rules. I can't stand to be

00:27:55   associated with them right now. I just can't stand it. They are ruining their relationship

00:27:59   among an entire generation of developers. This relationship's always been strained. The app

00:28:06   store has always, the whole concept of requiring app review and having all these rules and having

00:28:11   rejections and all the different levels of enforcement they've had over the years and

00:28:16   inconsistency. This has already been a strained relationship ever since the app store began

00:28:21   12 years ago, but they have just taken a turn for the worst recently, so much so that I've

00:28:29   considered the possibility, I know this sounds crazy, I've considered the possibility that

00:28:34   what if they want to get rid of some of these rules because they think it's a little much and

00:28:39   a little wrong too, but they know that if they just do it, they might face like a shareholder

00:28:45   lawsuit. So what if they are like provoking government regulation by going so over the top

00:28:53   that they are regulated and therefore then they can tell the shareholders, "We had to do this."

00:28:59   I don't think so.

00:28:59   But I know that's unlikely.

00:29:00   Almost impossible.

00:29:01   I'm not saying that's what I think is going on, but I'm saying their behavior

00:29:05   is so ridiculous in this area recently. It's so over the top. It's so insanely greedy and

00:29:13   aggressive and hostile and just they're doing everything wrong from a developer relations

00:29:20   point of view, from a corporate relations point of view, from avoiding antitrust regulation.

00:29:25   They're doing everything as wrong as possible in this area. So over the top ridiculous,

00:29:32   so offensive, so like just abrasive towards everyone and so just unabashedly, shamelessly,

00:29:40   greedy and stingy and just they're being such jerks about this whole thing.

00:29:46   I can only conclude as like a hopeful point of view where I hope this company has not gone insane.

00:29:52   I hope that this is all some big strategy to get themselves regulated because the more likely

00:30:00   alternative is that they just are these massively greedy, horrible jerks now. And I just can't

00:30:07   stomach that.

00:30:08   Yeah, a lot of the arguments when it comes to legal cases, like it's a lawyer's job to find

00:30:13   every possible argument and to use the ones that are most effective given the legal precedents

00:30:18   and everything. So if you see an argument in a court case and it seems really terrible,

00:30:22   in some respects, it's like, "Well, but that's what court cases are about." Like you kind of

00:30:26   have to check your shame at the door and say, "Look, do you want to win this court case? That's

00:30:29   why you pay me. I'm a lawyer. I'm telling you this is your strongest argument. Go with this."

00:30:32   And so they make arguments that from the outside look ridiculous or silly or ineffective or put

00:30:38   Apple in a bad light, but legally speaking, may give them the victory they want. And in general,

00:30:42   that's a calculated risk to say, "Well, most people don't follow the details of court cases,

00:30:45   so that's fine." The problem in this situation is a lot of these arguments that Marco is having

00:30:49   a strong reaction to were made before a court case existed, before Epic sued them, before any

00:30:53   of this happened. So you can't say, "Oh, Apple was doing that," because in a court case, you

00:30:58   use all the tools at your disposal. Apple itself directly made these arguments essentially to the

00:31:03   public as a form of PR, and that's back when we were saying, "Apple, this is not good public

00:31:08   relations here. You don't realize how you're coming off maybe to developers. I mean, maybe

00:31:12   you're trying to appeal to users, but developers see the same thing, and in fact, they're paying

00:31:15   more attention to it." So that's a lot of the problem here. And it's a lot of the exact same

00:31:19   arguments. Like I think at one point there was a quote from somebody, it might have been Phil

00:31:22   Schull, I don't remember, talking about how Epic uses Metal in their games and how Epic was on

00:31:30   stage with Apple, saying how great Metal was, because we've seen that at various WWDCs and other

00:31:35   conferences, and how Apple doesn't charge anything for Metal. And as one developer pointed out,

00:31:41   it's like, "It's not compelling. It's not compelling for you to say, 'All these APIs we

00:31:46   give you, we let you have Xcode, we let you do these APIs, and we pay to develop them.' It's like,

00:31:49   'Yeah, you're a platform, and we're third-party developers. That's how it works. What do you

00:31:54   expect to happen? If you thought you could charge for them, you would, but it's a competitive

00:32:00   advantage not to charge for them in your applications. Anyway, OpenGL, an alternative

00:32:05   thing, you deprecated. Of course we're going to use Metal, because you get rid of the API.

00:32:09   You can not make a game. It's like, see how they love Metal? The whole conversion to Metal,

00:32:16   that's an example of good corporate relationship management. Apple has strategic goals. They want

00:32:20   to switch to Metal, because they're going to make their own GPUs, their own system-mounted chips,

00:32:23   and they want more control over their graphics destiny. But they need developers to go along

00:32:27   with that. So they found a way to work out a situation with the big game engine developers

00:32:33   to say, "We need you to get onto Metal. I know you don't want to do it, because your engine works

00:32:36   okay in OpenGL now. But here is, the stick is we're going to take away OpenGL eventually, and the

00:32:42   carrot is, hey, you can be on stage and we'll show your games and whatever." There you go. You did it.

00:32:46   See? Win-win-win. Of course, now when they're in a fight, that comes flying back and says,

00:32:51   "You seemed to like us when you were doing the Metal stuff, and we didn't charge you for Metal,

00:32:54   aren't we awesome?" It's like, that's not a good argument. It doesn't make you look good,

00:32:58   Apple. Again, maybe in court that's good, but they made that argument before court of how great

00:33:02   Apple is that they would provide these APIs for you. We spend all this money to make these APIs,

00:33:06   and you ingrates, and we don't even charge you for it. I can't believe you ingrates.

00:33:11   It's not a good argument. Maybe it's a good legal argument. I don't know. We'll see. But it certainly

00:33:17   doesn't play well with developers. And I think users, users who aren't listening to tech podcasts,

00:33:23   probably have no awareness of any of this other than Apple and Epic are fighting and Fortnite

00:33:27   broke on my kid's phone, right? And that's still not a good look for Apple. Anyway.

00:33:32   Well, even that, I think that is, you know, I don't think we, because we are not like

00:33:37   big Fortnite players, I don't think we fully understand the impact of that. And I'm glad that,

00:33:42   you know, listening for it and to explain things like the season, which I didn't know about.

00:33:45   But like, I think often, like, you know, right, you know, my kid has an iPad, he uses it constantly.

00:33:51   The two things he uses it most for are YouTube and Minecraft. If, you know, he hasn't discovered

00:34:00   Fortnite yet. He's a little young for it. But I thought like, what if this happened to Minecraft?

00:34:05   What if Minecraft stopped being available on the iPad? And, you know, it stopped getting updates,

00:34:11   you couldn't play online anymore. And maybe it even, you know, did the whole, like, you know,

00:34:15   developer revocation thing where it would stop launching. I think he would never touch his iPad

00:34:20   again. That would put him off the platform for a long time. Like, here's what would probably happen.

00:34:26   You know, Minecraft is such a big part of his life that like, we don't think is a bad thing. And we

00:34:30   support that, you know, with limits, but you know, we support that. So it's such a thing that like,

00:34:35   if his primary Minecraft device stopped being able to run Minecraft, guess what we would do?

00:34:39   We'd probably get him an Xbox or a gaming PC, and he would just switch to that. And he would

00:34:45   never touch the iPad again. So that's, that would be a user on Apple's platform that they would just

00:34:49   lose for a long time, possibly forever. And I think, while again, while I don't give two

00:34:56   craps about Epic, and I think they're being jerks in their own way throughout some of this,

00:35:01   I do think that's not to be overlooked. That like, it is going to be a significant cost

00:35:06   to Apple's platform to have all these, you know, millions probably of gamers.

00:35:13   Now, like, you know, Apple's platforms have always kind of been second class citizens for major

00:35:19   gaming. But now this is like a major loss for them. And all those gamers who were playing Fortnite

00:35:26   on iOS devices, how many of those people are going to blame Epic for this? Probably not a lot.

00:35:33   Epic's done a really good job of showing all of them this is Apple's fault. Even though, again,

00:35:38   I think it is mostly Epic's fault, but that's beside the point. What all these people are

00:35:43   learning from this campaign that Epic is waging is that Apple's doing this to them. This isn't

00:35:49   just being fought in like the tech press, in the developer press. This is being fought in the

00:35:54   public. And Epic has brought all these users in. And all those customers, all those gamers,

00:35:59   they're all going to, you know, have a pretty big reason to stop using their iOS devices or

00:36:04   to beg their parents or to themselves buy a different system to play their games on now.

00:36:09   And those are, that is going to hurt Apple to some degree. It's not going to like put the company out

00:36:14   of business or anything, but that is going to be felt. Like, this is a significant difference here,

00:36:19   like in this fight compared to other fights that mostly happen kind of like behind the scenes and

00:36:23   closed business dealings and the companies didn't want to drag them to the public or couldn't drag

00:36:27   them to the public. This one is starting in the public and it's really, really big and it affects

00:36:33   a lot of people. And it's making Apple look like the big bad guy that frankly they pretty much are

00:36:40   in this area to millions of gamers and millions of customers who before weren't part of these fights,

00:36:47   weren't part of these discussions, didn't follow this kind of news. Now they're in it. And they're

00:36:52   all going to get this horrible impression of Apple that could last a long time.

00:36:55   Yeah, I mean, something that's helping Apple a little bit here is that Apple's platforms are

00:37:01   basically third class platforms when it comes to Fortnite, right? Because like the serious

00:37:06   players are playing on PC because you can get the highest frame rate, the highest res, you know,

00:37:10   and you can use mouse and keyboard and all that other stuff. And then consoles are the second tier

00:37:14   and touch input iOS devices is third tier. Not that there aren't a lot of users because there

00:37:20   are a lot of users or whatever, but you know, it's only 12% of app of epic's revenue, but 12%

00:37:24   is still not nothing. But in general, I think Apple has helped that like that people don't buy

00:37:31   iPads to play Fortnite, right? It's a thing they can do on the iPads that they have. But if they

00:37:36   get super into Fortnite, they are going to eventually get a game console RPC as they get

00:37:41   older, they will graduate from it because it's not the ideal platform for that type of game.

00:37:46   It's great that it's on there. It's a benefit to Apple. But it's not like for example,

00:37:50   losing Facebook on the iPhone, because Facebook like is natively like an iPhone. I know this is

00:37:57   a weird thing to say. But like, a lot of people read Facebook on their iPhone, there is no first

00:38:01   class platform for Facebook that is not your phone like that is the first class platform, right? So

00:38:06   again, epic is obviously not as big as Facebook. And it's not as used by as many people or whatever,

00:38:10   just to give an example, like Apple's isolated from this a little bit because it's bad. If

00:38:17   Fortnite never comes back on the platform, but every single one of those users can can and

00:38:23   probably was going to inevitably transition to playing Fortnite on a different platform.

00:38:28   I don't think anybody is willingly playing Fortnite on an iPad as they age out of, you know,

00:38:34   childhood into teen years into adulthood. Like, if you're an adult, I don't know how many adults

00:38:39   unless they're really, really forced to and they don't have any other choice, are willingly playing

00:38:43   Fortnite on an iPad, if they have any way to get a game console or PC.

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00:40:46   [MUSIC PLAYING]

00:40:50   So John, is it finally time to talk about antitrust and Apple?

00:40:54   Almost. One thing I just want to clarify because I think I figured out Tim Sweeney's tweet.

00:40:57   Is this still a follow-up?

00:40:58   No, that's a topic. But this is the finishing up the follow-up. Tim Sweeney's tweet that I

00:41:02   didn't understand. All right, so this is more about Epic Games versus Epic International and

00:41:06   Unreal versus Fortnite, right? So Tim Sweeney is saying that Apple said they'll invoke all of

00:41:10   Apple's SDK access for stuff on Friday, blah, blah, blah. The temporary restraining order

00:41:15   does not stop Apple from doing that to the account that owns Fortnite. But there's a different

00:41:20   developer account for Epic International that has the Unreal Engine stuff, and that's the one the

00:41:25   judge said that Apple can't ditch. So Apple can and apparently is still going to terminate the

00:41:31   developer account that is used to build and deploy Fortnite, right? Still doesn't explain why they

00:41:38   didn't release one last version for Mac users right now because it's not Friday yet, and you

00:41:42   could put out the build, right? And then the Mac users could have it. And I suppose, you know,

00:41:46   they can't do it for iOS because iOS is off the App Store, but there is no, you know, again,

00:41:49   Fortnite's not on the App Store for the Mac. But anyway, that's what Tim Sweeney is saying.

00:41:53   He's saying, "Oh, they're going to kill access on Friday," and that is true, and the judge is not

00:41:56   stopping them from it. Anyway, that's how that works. So I feel better that I understand the

00:42:02   complaints now. I still don't understand why the Mac version isn't out, but it's kind of a

00:42:06   foot stomping, like, "Well, if you're going to kill my account, I'm not going to rush for the

00:42:09   last two days to try to get the Mac version out because what if there's a bug or something?"

00:42:12   And then we'll no longer have a developer account for it to fix the bug, and it'll be bad.

00:42:16   So antitrust.

00:42:18   Antitrust and Apple.

00:42:19   Marco has certainly talked a lot about this, and I think, Casey, you weighed in on it a little bit,

00:42:23   but I've been avoiding the antitrust angle, as in, like, the legal government and just the general

00:42:29   idea of the referees coming in and saying, "What you're doing is bad, and we need to change the

00:42:36   rules of the game so that what you're doing is not damaging to the overall game and everyone who

00:42:41   plays it, right? Our economy." And my opinion on antitrust is mostly shaped by my sort of formative

00:42:51   experience of antitrust, which is the Microsoft antitrust trial, which was a very big deal in my

00:42:55   life. I was very big into the Mac and PC wars when I was a kid and was very anti-Microsoft. And

00:43:03   all the media and explainer articles and stories surrounding the antitrust, the Microsoft antitrust

00:43:10   trial, really sort of gave me a surface on which I could bounce all of my thoughts and opinions on

00:43:18   antitrust off of, right? Now, I'm not a lawyer. I don't know what the legal situation for antitrust

00:43:23   is. And I didn't know all the nitty-gritty legal deals of the Microsoft one. I'm sure I won't know

00:43:28   the nitty-gritty details of whatever may or may not happen related to tech and antitrust in the

00:43:32   coming years because there are rumblings in Congress about that and there were those hearings

00:43:36   and all that. So I don't know. But my personal sort of yardstick for antitrust and when it's

00:43:43   being damaging is based on something that was repeated a lot in the Microsoft trial and the

00:43:47   Microsoft case, which was lots of things that you do as a company in our semi-capitalist economy

00:43:55   to try to get one up on your competitors are fine until you become so big that you are a

00:44:03   quote-unquote monopoly. And then suddenly all the things that you did to get there,

00:44:08   a whole bunch of them become illegal because it's fine to do this thing like, okay, well,

00:44:14   if you buy a product X from us, you also have to buy a product Y, right? It's fine to do that

00:44:18   when you're still little, because if your customers don't like it, they can say,

00:44:24   "I don't, you're making me buy X when I just want to buy Y, I'm going to go to someone else,"

00:44:28   right? Because they are competitors and they can go to them, right? But eventually,

00:44:32   if you become a monopoly, you tell them, "Oh, if you buy X from us, you also have to buy Y."

00:44:37   And they can't say, "I don't want that deal. I'll go buy from someone else." And you say,

00:44:42   "Who else are you going to buy from? We're the only game out there." Now, obviously,

00:44:46   in most cases, a monopoly is never literally the only game in town. But there was a particular moment

00:44:51   I remember from the Microsoft trust trial, which had me going, "Yes, finally," because as a Mac

00:44:56   fan at that time, it was so clear to me that Microsoft was a monopoly. That wasn't even a

00:45:02   question. I just wanted them to get to the part where they said, "Okay, given that you're a

00:45:04   monopoly, are you allowed to do X, Y, and Z?" But they had to argue all this stuff about the

00:45:08   monopoly. And at some point, one of the lawyers for the government side said to a giant courtroom,

00:45:12   which was then filled with people in these pre-COVID times, it was the audience in the

00:45:15   courtroom and everyone there, they said, or maybe it was in Congress, I forget where it was, but it

00:45:18   was a big room full of people. And they said, "Raise your hand if you have a Windows PC." And

00:45:23   everybody in the freaking room raised their hand. Maybe there's one person in the back who didn't,

00:45:26   but today in this world where Mac and PC doesn't matter or anything, if you didn't live through it,

00:45:32   you don't realize how prevalent Windows PCs were. Nobody had Macs. People hadn't even seen Macs.

00:45:38   When you'd say you had a Mac, they'd look at you weird, like, "What the hell? Why do you have..."

00:45:41   Like, Windows massively dominated. Windows PCs were the entire market and just a bunch of weirdos

00:45:48   who wanted to overpay for a slower computer because it was pretty. Like, this is all pre-iMac,

00:45:53   pre-Mac OS X, before all of that. Windows massively dominated. And that demonstration,

00:45:59   even though it is just anecdotal or whatever, was hammering home the points like, "Look,

00:46:03   we all know that Microsoft is a monopoly. If you have some business and Microsoft forces you to

00:46:10   take some deal or bundles something with something else or uses their power as a monopoly to crush a

00:46:13   competitor, you're going to go, 'You know what? I don't like that. I'm going to switch to Mac.'"

00:46:17   And they'd be like, "What, are you kidding me? Nobody has Macs." It's ridiculous.

00:46:24   And it was such an easy monopoly because Windows PCs were physical things that you could see.

00:46:29   You could just walk into any building in any city in the world and just go to every single

00:46:33   personal computer and say, "Is this a Windows computer? Yes or no?" And just count them up and,

00:46:37   sure enough, you'd find like 90-something percent of them would be Windows PCs. It was so easy to

00:46:41   do. There wasn't any sort of nuance to it at all. And so that always informs my opinion of antitrust.

00:46:48   It's fine to do all sorts of hard-nosed deals. And the way you can tell you're a monopoly is

00:46:55   you can make the deal awful and people still have to take it. That's when the referees need to come

00:46:59   in because it's anti-competitive. Competition means you can demand the thing of your customers

00:47:06   or raise your prices. That's the easy one because people always say, "Oh, it was the price raise."

00:47:09   But there are so many other things that you can do. You can crush competitors by saying,

00:47:12   "If you, my customer, do any business with that other company, I won't sell you Windows anymore.

00:47:18   And if I don't sell you Windows anymore, your business is dead because you have to have Windows

00:47:21   because what the hell else are you going to do?" That's how you can tell when you're a monopoly.

00:47:23   And after the antitrust trial, both before and after, on the internet and using it back in those

00:47:30   days or whatever, people would have all these opinions that didn't make any sense to me. Even

00:47:34   back then when the Mac was like 3% market share or something, people would say, "Well, Apple has a

00:47:40   monopoly on Macs." I don't think you understand what monopoly means. Does Honda have a monopoly

00:47:48   on Honda cars? I mean, yeah, they're the only company that sells Honda cars. They have 100%

00:47:53   market share of selling Honda cars, but that's not how it works. And so everybody has a monopoly on

00:48:01   the thing that only they do. So you need some other kind of yardstick. And back then, like I said,

00:48:05   it was so easy. It was market share as in just count up all the PCs and see which, all the

00:48:11   personal computers and see which ones are Macs and which ones are PCs. How many sold per year,

00:48:14   how many installed base. Pick a number. It was really easy to do. And a lot of the sort of app

00:48:20   store, Apple walled garden, Apple's being unfair, Apple is a monopoly too thing that never stopped

00:48:26   from the days when everyone just was complaining about Apple even when they were 3% market share.

00:48:31   And just got louder and louder, I've always said, "Well, look, Apple has a monopoly on

00:48:38   applications on its own platforms, right? But Apple doesn't even sell the majority of mobile

00:48:44   phones, for example. Not only do they not have 97% market share, they don't even have 50%.

00:48:48   The biggest platform for mobile phones is Android. And Apple doesn't have anything to do with that.

00:48:56   So if your measure of whether Apple is a monopoly is not simply, "Oh, well, Apple has a monopoly in

00:49:01   Apple products, which is dumb." If you look at the model that we use for the Microsoft antitrust

00:49:07   trial, which is like market share, essentially, how many phones are out in the world and how many

00:49:11   of those phones are iPhones, you'll see that they don't have a monopoly. So if Apple does something

00:49:17   that users don't like, like for example, charging 700% commission on everything in the app store,

00:49:22   that would decimate their third party application support because everybody would leave,

00:49:26   right? Except for Facebook, who continued to... They said, "No more free apps and we get 700%.

00:49:30   So if you sell it for $1, we get $7." They made a terrible deal, right? Everyone would just leave.

00:49:36   I would argue the current deal is not that great, but go ahead.

00:49:39   Right. But I'm saying the test of monopoly power is how badly can you screw everybody involved and

00:49:45   they have no choice. And from a market share perspective, if Apple does things that developers

00:49:53   and/or customers don't like enough, people can switch. And Apple, by the way, will absolutely

00:49:57   argue this in the current antitrust trials or whatever comes, they will say, "People can and

00:50:01   do switch from iOS to Android. It happens all the time. It's a thing that you can do." So that showing

00:50:08   that there is competition. So if we, Apple, do something that's actually really bad, there is

00:50:12   someplace else for them to go. Unlike Microsoft, where it was just not viable for you to switch

00:50:18   to the Mac, especially back in the heyday of the Wintel PC, because almost all the

00:50:26   applications you cared about weren't even on the Mac. If you're using this point of sale software or

00:50:30   custom software you have written for your thing or tons of other applications that were only

00:50:34   available on Windows or DOS or whatever, but on mobile phones, it's not the same way.

00:50:39   There's much more parity, right? So from a market share perspective, Apple certainly does not have

00:50:46   a monopoly using the sort of measuring yardstick that was used in the Microsoft antitrust trial.

00:50:51   And for a longest time, before all this, for years and years of the App Store,

00:50:54   as we were creeping up to this, this was generally the reason why I ignored any kind of

00:50:58   "Apple needs to be investigated for antitrust things." It's like, they're not in a Microsoft

00:51:03   position. They can't turn the screws on everybody and get away with it, because not only is there

00:51:09   a viable alternative, there's a more popular alternative, right? And that ratio, that market

00:51:14   share, Apple wasn't creeping up to eventually dominate to have 90% market share. They've been

00:51:19   holding steady or declining compared to Android. I don't think there's ever been a point where the

00:51:24   majority of mobile smartphones in use in the world were Apple platform, right?

00:51:30   The thing that's changed for me in recent years is not Apple's behavior, because in many respects,

00:51:37   Apple doing things that make users and/or developers angry, and then us having reactions

00:51:43   to them. Obviously, it's coming to a head now, but it's always been sort of simmering in the

00:51:47   background. But that hasn't changed the general equation for me of like, "Okay, well, then if

00:51:52   users don't like it, and if Fortnite and Facebook and Netflix all leave the platform, everyone will

00:51:57   just switch to Android, right? So it shows Apple's not a monopoly." The thing that's been bothering

00:52:00   me a little bit lately is a different yardstick other than just installed base of phones and

00:52:06   ability to switch. And that yardstick is a different statistic, which is not installed base,

00:52:11   but share of money flowing through the mobile phone economy. And when you're selling a physical

00:52:18   good like a Windows PC that comes with a Windows license that you pay Microsoft for, it's really

00:52:23   easy to say you sell one PC, you have to sell one Windows license for it, and you figure out

00:52:27   how much that PC maker pays per license. It's a very straightforward thing. But just selling a

00:52:32   bunch of phones into the world does not directly translate to revenue that passes through those

00:52:38   phones. So even though there are way, way more Android phones in the world, my understanding is

00:52:43   that the majority, in fact, the vast majority of revenue that are profit revenue or profit,

00:52:50   I don't know if it's both. But anyway, the vast majority of the money that we care about that

00:52:54   flows through the mobile economy actually does go through Apple phones. Is it because people buy

00:52:59   Apple phones have more money? Because the phones are more expensive in general, and therefore,

00:53:02   they have more money to spend? Is it because iPhone users are more likely to spend money of

00:53:07   any amount than Android users? But either way, that is a very different statistic than how many

00:53:13   phones exist in the world. And that would mean that Apple may, I mean, we're kind of in the

00:53:18   process of finding out, may actually have monopoly level power when it comes to forcing companies to

00:53:23   do what it wants, because they are the gatekeeper to whatever the percentage is 80%, 90% of the

00:53:31   money flowing through the mobile economy. Right. And it would be interesting to see if anyone makes

00:53:36   that argument, maybe when the government case comes, probably not going to come from this epic

00:53:39   one. But all I'm saying is there's more, there's more to monopoly than just market share. And what

00:53:45   really matters in monopoly is what kind of power you have. Now, I don't think that Apple currently

00:53:50   actually has the power that Microsoft had to basically get its way because these companies

00:53:57   need Apple because they need that 80 or 90% of revenue, just because I think it's a little bit

00:54:02   more fragmented than that. And I also think the revenue would go with these companies if they

00:54:07   abandoned Apple. So Facebook, Netflix, you know, Amazon, Epic, all left Apple's platform and went

00:54:14   to Android, I think the money would follow them, because the people who currently have iPhones and

00:54:18   have been spending all that money would switch platforms. But right now, Apple's, I don't know

00:54:25   what you want to call it, money share is way out of proportion with their market share. And that's

00:54:29   the thing I'm keeping my eye on. Because you can imagine if Apple's money share got to be,

00:54:35   you know, 99% or 100%, and Android was just that phone that people get who never spend any money

00:54:40   through their phone, Apple would have a lot more power than it does now. I think part of the battle

00:54:44   that we're seeing here is a test case to see exactly how much power Apple has. And thus far,

00:54:50   Epic, I think, has shown that Apple has less power than Apple thinks it has. Because Epic is willing

00:54:55   to defy Apple, and Epic's not even that big in the grand scheme of things, right? How much does,

00:55:01   granted, Epic has less to lose, but they are a small fish compared to the biggest company in the

00:55:06   world. And they're willing to go head to head, they're willing to take the hit, they're willing

00:55:09   to battle Apple on this front. And it's a couple items that got pushed out of fault because it was

00:55:13   too long. Talking about other companies doing similar things, I think people smell blood in

00:55:18   the water when it comes to Apple. And I think that shows that Apple does not yet have monopoly level

00:55:23   power. And that's why most of my other discussion of this topic has been, Apple, you're doing

00:55:30   stupid things. Corporate relationship management is bad. What you're doing is not going to work,

00:55:35   right? I'm telling Apple as a customer that likes their products that you're making bad decisions.

00:55:39   But at no point that I said, Apple, what you're doing is illegal, or Apple, what you're doing is

00:55:44   immoral. It's just stupid business, right? You're making people like Marco super mad at you. That's

00:55:48   bad business. It's their right to do things that are bad for their business. But I, you know,

00:55:55   I'm going to say that I don't currently think that anything Apple is doing, specifically Apple,

00:56:01   requires antitrust intervention based on their current power in the market. But I will say that

00:56:09   writ large, there needs to be new regulation in the tech sector to control the actions of all

00:56:14   companies. Because when you go look at Google, it's like, oh, well, Google, you know, that's the

00:56:17   place where you can change, right? Google does all the same stuff, or mostly most of the same stuff.

00:56:22   And it's not because there's collusion or anything. It's just because there are too few players.

00:56:26   And those players have found things they can do that make them tons and tons of money,

00:56:30   and give them tons of power. And even though they are themselves are deadly competitors, you know,

00:56:34   all the big tech companies are themselves deadly competitors with each other. There's just not that

00:56:38   many of them. And that is too much power concentrated in too small an area. And that's

00:56:42   why we need new regulation to protect customers to protect not to protect developers specifically,

00:56:46   but to protect customers and their data, and their rights, and everything having to do with that. So

00:56:51   I think absolutely, there needs to be new and better rate legislation, which will be really hard

00:56:55   for our broken system of government to produce at any time soon. But anyway, there needs to be that.

00:57:01   But I don't think Apple itself. I could be convinced otherwise, you know, that's I'll see

00:57:06   your evidence in court eventually, when this ever comes to court, right. But I don't think Apple

00:57:10   specifically anything that it's doing, demands legal intervention, I just think they're being

00:57:15   stupid. So what would you if you were allowed to make changes to the App Store rules? What would

00:57:22   you do? It's not a question of like App Store rules. I think they just need to be. It's so hard

00:57:29   to do because there's so many different ways you can go with this. But like, the example I'd always

00:57:34   use is like, everyone always wants to use consumer harm. And they they're so focused on prices, like,

00:57:38   well, the prices in the App Store are low, like that downward price pressure that we always

00:57:42   complained about from the software developers. That's good for consumers, right? downward price

00:57:46   pressure. That's good. Like the same kind of argument make for Walmart, hey, Walmart's able

00:57:49   to sell goods really cheaply. Isn't that great? But the power that Walmart wields over its suppliers

00:57:53   and the power that Apple wields over its suppliers and the power that Apple reads over its developers,

00:57:57   even though it results in low prices for consumers is not good for the sort of the ecosystem of

00:58:02   our general economy. So I would mostly be trying to target rules that require some kind of

00:58:11   require the big companies to certain certain rights of consumers need to be preserved. Like,

00:58:18   you can't do a thing that prevents like, here's an example. I don't necessarily agree with this one,

00:58:23   but it's an easy one to pull out. You can't do a thing that stops people from being able to

00:58:28   install whatever software they want on their phones, right? So side loading, for example,

00:58:33   again, we talked about this before, I don't necessarily agree with it. But it's an easy

00:58:35   thing to say customers, it's their phone, they bought it, you as a company shouldn't be able

00:58:39   to stop them from installing stuff on it by voiding their warranty or whatever, like, you

00:58:44   know, like, the MCA and everything makes that difficult because of the whole anti hacking crap

00:58:49   or whatever. But anyway, that's an example. And that would be a protection of consumers,

00:58:53   because that would provide some pressure for Apple to make the App Store better,

00:58:56   something they would never do on their own, because they don't want to enable side loading,

00:58:59   but there was law that it forced them to. That's a bad example, because I don't agree with it. But

00:59:02   that that is an example of sort of a thing that would apply to everybody. And that it would force

00:59:07   more competition. And it would force more innovation, right? Because lots of things that

00:59:11   aren't allowed on the App Store will never know what could have been created. And what somebody

00:59:15   bailed on because they thought it was an awesome idea. But they said, Oh, that'll never get past

00:59:17   Abreu. So they didn't do it right. And maybe they'll never get past Abreu. But you can do it

00:59:21   on Android then have everybody side load and then say, Yeah, but, you know, it's a thing that makes

00:59:26   money. And most people have money or on iOS, you'll never know the innovation you're losing by having

00:59:29   these closed platforms. So things like that are right to repair is another example, like,

00:59:34   you should be able to bring your iPhone to someone else and have them repair it, right? And

00:59:38   Apple would complain, it's a safety concern, and only Apple can do it or whatever, you know,

00:59:43   and some of that is true. But a lot of it is just a way for them to preserve the money for themselves.

00:59:47   And that's anti-consumer. So we have these consumer laws in various states that say,

00:59:51   if you make a hardware product, you can't actually stop people. This applies to like Tesla cars and

00:59:56   everything else. You can't actually stop people from taking it to someone else and paying them

00:59:59   money to fix it. Right? laws like that, that are not, oh, you should have this rule in the app

01:00:05   store, but that are instead, here's a class of things that we understand companies want to do,

01:00:11   that makes them tons of money. But in the end, if everybody does it, it makes the world worse for

01:00:16   all of us. Like, that's the role. That's the role of government, find the things that you know,

01:00:19   they're all the companies in some ways are, you know, competing for our dollar and doing all these

01:00:24   things. But eventually companies get enough power to start do things that benefit the company, but

01:00:29   don't benefit literally anybody else. And that's when you need, you know, laws to regulate the game

01:00:35   to make it so you know, I know you can do that move. And I know it makes everything for you

01:00:39   better. And no, no one can stop you. But the fact that no one can stop you means we're gonna make

01:00:44   a law that says you can't do that. Right? So I don't have any specific recommendations. But that's

01:00:49   the type of thing I'm thinking of. Yeah, I don't know, to answer my own question, I don't know,

01:00:53   I don't know what I would recommend. I feel like I feel like this distinction, this seemingly

01:01:03   arbitrary distinction that Apple has come up with, where you can sell something in the quote, unquote,

01:01:10   real world. And you can do that in a very user hostile way without Apple taking a cut. And that's

01:01:18   all right. Like you can sell stuff on Amazon, you can book an Airbnb rental, you can take an Uber or

01:01:24   Lyft. And Apple doesn't necessarily need a cut of that. You can schedule an in person and pay for an

01:01:30   in person gym class. But it's in person. So it's okay. But suddenly, if it's virtual or fake, if

01:01:40   you will, I don't literally believe that being open for the sake of discussion fake or electronic or

01:01:45   what have you, suddenly Apple deserves the money, according to Apple. And that distinction,

01:01:50   while it may have made sense early on, I don't particularly understand it now. And

01:01:57   I finally had the time earlier tonight to read Ben Thompson's last couple of posts about this.

01:02:03   I think they might have been members only posts. If they weren't, I'll link them in show notes.

01:02:08   But the big one wasn't. Okay, thank you. But his one of his points was,

01:02:14   and I'm gonna butcher it because I'm not as smart as Ben. But basically, if the marginal cost for

01:02:19   selling the thing is effectively zero, you don't have to physically create another one, then, okay,

01:02:26   Apple gets 30%. But if there's a non-zero marginal cost, you actually have to have room in a building

01:02:32   to teach this exercise class. You are actually staying at somebody's Airbnb. You are actually

01:02:38   buying something tangible from Amazon. Then maybe there should be some other tier,

01:02:45   wherein Apple gets a cut, but maybe it's not 30%. And maybe those companies should be allowed to

01:02:52   offer their own payment systems and so on. And I feel like I understand the spirit of what Ben

01:02:58   was going for, but I think it gets really complicated really quickly. And I think that

01:03:04   in order for it to be fair for everyone, for users, for developers, for Apple, whatever the system is

01:03:10   should have a really, really simple elevator pitch. And to be fair, the elevator pitch or the

01:03:17   summary of today's system is everyone pays 30%. Pastorisk.

01:03:22   Pastorisk. Double dagger. Yeah, exactly. But I think you take the spirit of what I mean, though.

01:03:28   And I don't know what that simple answer is. I just really don't.

01:03:32   I mean, I don't think it's possible to draw that kind of distinction in a reliable, enforceable way.

01:03:39   Like, this is why I'm actually being a little bit more ambitious with what I hope to happen now.

01:03:46   Not that it will. There's, I think, almost no chance of this ever happening, even with regulation.

01:03:51   But I think one of the big challenges Apple has always had with App Store rules is that many of

01:03:59   the rules are fairly straightforward, objective rules of, like, you know, the app can't crash

01:04:05   during app review. That's bad. It has to do what it says it does, etc. It can't be malware. It has

01:04:12   to adhere to certain restrictions on how it uses certain hardware features. There's so many parts

01:04:19   of the rules that are sensible, defensible, and objective. And therefore should be fairly easy to

01:04:28   enforce consistently and fairly and in a way that everyone can predict before they go and develop an

01:04:35   app or submit it. Like, so it's fairly easy to avoid stepping on, you know, the straightforward,

01:04:39   obvious parts of the rules. And most of the App Store review rules, and I would even say

01:04:45   most of the value of them to customers, falls into that category. We're only really talking about

01:04:52   a relatively small handful of very vague, very controversial, unpredictable, and inconsistently

01:04:59   enforced rules. And I think it would be better for everybody, including Apple eventually long term,

01:05:08   but better for everybody, certainly better for developers, and I think even better for users and

01:05:14   for the whole ecosystem, if the only rules that were enforced were objective, easily defensible

01:05:22   rules. And so that's why I don't think you can really make a lot of like strong cases for any of

01:05:29   these rules that have to do with whether Apple can demand 30% of your money based on how and why

01:05:39   and for what your app is processing payments. So what I would actually hope to see long term,

01:05:47   and again, I know this is really optimistic, I don't think it'll ever actually happen.

01:05:51   But what I would hope to see long term is for Apple, and I know this sounds crazy,

01:05:56   give me a moment, I will explain, to just drop the requirement and let people do

01:06:02   in their apps, whatever the heck they want to do with payments and credit cards and money and

01:06:08   anything else. You know, this sounds crazy, I know, oh my god, what if there's all these scams and

01:06:14   people take their credit cards and everything? Well, you can do all that in Safari. And the world

01:06:20   has functioned. You know, yes, there are some scams. There are also lots of scams in Apples,

01:06:26   in App Purchase systems that use subscription billing and misleading things like, yeah,

01:06:30   there's a lot of scams in the App Store too. And again, the world has gone, has functioned and gone

01:06:36   on with it. Like, credit cards are pretty productive about fraud and people blow money

01:06:41   on stupid stuff all the time through legitimate and illegitimate means with credit cards and with

01:06:45   games and everything like, so I don't think there would be a meaningful consumer harm.

01:06:50   And you can look at the web again, bringing this as another example, because it's a huge one,

01:06:56   you can look at the web and you can say, okay, well, the web, you can buy things with your

01:07:01   credit card on sites. However, there has recently, you know, relatively recently, been this

01:07:08   additional option that Apple offered called Apple Pay on the web. And Apple Pay on the web is

01:07:14   awesome for me as a consumer. Whenever I see a way to buy something with Apple Pay on the web,

01:07:20   I always choose that option. And I've even occasionally not bought something because it

01:07:26   was too hard to do, especially if I'm on my phone, I don't want to like type in on my billing info,

01:07:30   whereas I probably would have bought it more easily if there was an Apple Pay button.

01:07:33   And so there's actually a big incentive for people with web checkout or purchase things

01:07:39   to add Apple Pay support. And Apple does get some kind of, I think, very small percentage of those

01:07:44   sales. I think it's on the order of like 0.1% or something like they get some kind of small

01:07:47   commission as part of the credit card merchant fee. But, you know, they don't get a lot of that.

01:07:51   But, you know, Apple's paid for that. And, you know, there is huge benefit to me as a customer

01:07:57   of using Apple Pay. There is pressure, therefore, on the website to integrate it.

01:08:01   And it has this wonderful user experience. I don't see anything wrong with a long term vision in which

01:08:08   apps can do whatever they want with payments in their app. If they're scams,

01:08:13   App Review can still take care of that. I'm not pushing for sideloading still. Again,

01:08:18   even in my crazy new world here, this thing's never going to happen. I'm not pushing for

01:08:22   sideloading or alternative app stores because, you know, that's a whole can of worms. I don't

01:08:27   think we need to go there necessarily. But so App Review can still function as a way to filter out

01:08:34   scams and bad actors and things that are breaking, you know, more objective, easily defensible rules.

01:08:40   But it's just too messy in the real world to try to like, you know, govern in a way what they

01:08:49   ostensibly do with these rules, to try to like enforce rules that are, you know,

01:08:54   consistently and predictably and across all apps. They just can't do it. Like, for instance, like,

01:08:59   I recently learned from Tiff, actually, who bought an Instagram ad, that Instagram ads are

01:09:08   purchasable directly in the app. I have no idea how, like, how this is okay.

01:09:15   Like, Instagram is owned by Facebook. I'm not sure you know that. Yeah, right. Instagram is

01:09:19   bigger than Epic. Facebook ads, I have no idea if this is true or not, but I would bet you can

01:09:24   probably buy Facebook ads in their app too, because you can buy them in Instagram. And like, why

01:09:30   has an Apple demanded 30% of all of Instagram's ad revenue on iOS? Oh, because they can't. Because,

01:09:40   yes, John, they're too big. Like, Apple couldn't anger them that much. I have no idea why it's okay

01:09:49   for Instagram to sell ads in their app, and yet it's not okay for a lot of these other things that

01:09:55   Apple has rejected. And this kind of inconsistency is never going to go away. You know, you look at

01:10:02   the WordPress rejection from last week, and it's like, and even that's like, it's a weird, vague,

01:10:09   blurry line of like, whether this should have been allowed or not. And it's all these complexities

01:10:13   about how do you define the purchase? And what is WordPress versus the app and the service? Like,

01:10:18   there's all these blurry lines, because that's the real world. In the real world, we have a few,

01:10:23   you know, we have some simple cases where the rules are clear cut and make sense. Then we also

01:10:27   have a whole bunch of really complicated things where it's kind of vague as to whether it should

01:10:30   be allowed or not. They're never going to win that fight. They're never going to find a way

01:10:35   to consistently enforce this rule without the problems they have now of just being,

01:10:40   just angering everybody, get constantly getting in disputes, having unpredictable, inconsistent

01:10:45   enforcement of everything. And that has always gotten them in trouble with the App Store,

01:10:48   always since day one. And their recent incredible increase of aggression in this particular area,

01:10:56   which seems to me like a desperate way to drive up service revenue when everything else is constant,

01:11:00   but hey, that's just me. Their incredible aggression in this particular area to squeeze

01:11:06   out another few percent of profit margin for this quarter or whatever. I don't think it's worth it.

01:11:11   Like, I think they're doing so much more damage. Long term, I would be totally pleased and happy

01:11:19   if they would just have a consistent, easily enforceable rule of do what you want in your app,

01:11:26   and you can use our payment system if you want. And then Apple, again, as I mentioned a few

01:11:32   episodes ago, would be forced to compete because their payment system has a lot of big advantages.

01:11:36   For the same reason why I love using Apple Pay on the web, I also love buying subscriptions to

01:11:45   things with Apple's system instead of someone else's system because it is easier, it is faster,

01:11:50   and I know that when I want to cancel it, I'm not going to have to call anybody or do any weird

01:11:55   jumping through hoops. I can just cancel it and that's it. And so there is still that consumer

01:12:01   pressure that app developers will still have huge incentives to use Apple's system because

01:12:08   their customers will demand it and they'll get higher conversions as a result. That's why I

01:12:12   would still use it for Overcast. That's why I would still use it as a customer, as a user of

01:12:16   all these other apps, and I would subscribe more readily to something that offered Apple's system

01:12:20   than something that doesn't. That alone would be a reason why most apps probably would still choose

01:12:26   to use Apple's system. And that would be totally defensible on Apple's part. They could still

01:12:31   charge their same rates on that because they are providing legitimate value and they're convincing

01:12:36   you to use it not because of a giant stick that they wield but on its merit. Imagine how nice that

01:12:43   would be to choose to use Apple's net purchase system because of the merits it brings you rather

01:12:51   than to have to be forced to use it and have all this crap going on with all these rules that you

01:12:55   have to tiptoe around. Otherwise Apple will demand 30% of your entire business that has nothing to do

01:12:59   with them. And I frankly like Apple's counter arguments to this hold so little water. Their

01:13:07   counter arguments like the consumer harm side is mostly not there. If they would allow other

01:13:15   payments it's mostly not there. And I think the market would sort that out just like it has on the

01:13:19   web. And any argument that goes towards paying Apple to fund the App Store is 1000% BS because

01:13:32   whatever revenue the App Store brings in from Apple squeezing this 30% out of developers that

01:13:37   makes up like a few percent of their quarterly revenue pales in comparison to the value of the

01:13:45   app ecosystem to the iPhone which is way way more of the company's revenue. Because the iPhone

01:13:53   wouldn't sell at all if it weren't for all these third party apps. How many people do you know

01:13:59   who would buy an iPhone if it couldn't run any third party apps? I bet it's not a very big

01:14:04   number. I know yes the original one blah blah blah that was a long time ago. These days the value of

01:14:10   a phone is the apps it runs and in particular a handful of very big company apps that everybody

01:14:15   wants to run. And a phone that can't run those apps is not going to sell. And Apple without the

01:14:22   iPhone is a shareholder lawsuit that's for sure. A new CEO. Everyone gets fired if the iPhone is not

01:14:30   selling. So that's way more important. And the value of the apps is such a massive part of all

01:14:40   of Apple's hardware platforms that they make way more money from than this stupid services category

01:14:46   that keeps having them screw their customers over. They're framing it as like "Oh you have to pay

01:14:51   your way and that's how we justify this." But that's not the reality. That's not why the app store is

01:14:58   here. You know what's also really important to Apple? The bathrooms on their campus. How much

01:15:04   money do the bathrooms bring in? You can see it's a ridiculous argument to start separating things

01:15:10   out when there's a lot of value to that in other ways. They're pretty important. Sometimes you

01:15:15   have to fund something because it's important to the rest of your business that makes money.

01:15:19   The app store, they're double dipping. They have found a way to make significant money by squeezing

01:15:24   all of us from something that they would be running anyway because it has massive value to

01:15:30   their hardware platform that makes them way way way more money. Apple would be in great shape and

01:15:36   would have huge motivation to run the app store for free. They don't deserve any percentage of

01:15:43   our money for running the app store. We are in a symbiotic relationship here. We have software

01:15:50   that we sell or make money from and Apple has a platform full of users. By us having our software

01:15:56   on their platform, everyone benefits. The users, Apple's platform and therefore Apple and us by

01:16:02   making the apps. We all benefit from that. That's why they do it. Apple doesn't need any percentage.

01:16:09   All they need to do is cover their credit card fees and they can do that with 5% or less.

01:16:13   They don't need all this from us. They're taking it because they can.

01:16:18   Again, it's a bad look for so many reasons. The really truly sad part about all this is

01:16:26   that this is like a drop in the bucket to them still. They're destroying their reputation.

01:16:33   By the way, being an Apple fan for so long, we've had to fight a long time to try to convince the

01:16:41   world that Apple is not greedy jerks about everything. They are now showing the world

01:16:49   that they totally are greedy jerks about everything. This kind of reputation takes

01:16:53   so long to shake off. I wish they wouldn't put themselves in this position. It really is. It's

01:17:01   like your best friend is in front of a crowd and starts to tell a racist joke and you're like,

01:17:08   "Oh no. Oh God. No, no, no, no. Stop. Stop. Please don't do this." Because you don't want to see them

01:17:13   look like a jerk. Then they just keep digging and digging and digging. You're like, "No, no, no, no,

01:17:18   no. Stop. Stop." This is how it is being an Apple fan right now. They just keep digging and digging

01:17:23   and digging and just looking horrible. They don't seem to know or care or even realize it

01:17:30   because they seem to be living in an alternate world where their behavior is defensible.

01:17:34   But anyway, to answer your question, the rule I would change after all that.

01:17:39   I think long term, all these weird subjective distinctions they try to make about when they

01:17:51   deserve their 30% and when they will permit you to not contribute to their app store are mostly

01:17:59   BS and unenforceable. It's full of vague edge cases. It always has been. It always will be.

01:18:05   And there is no way out of that that can be consistently enforced and reasonable to everybody

01:18:11   except giving up that revenue as a requirement and actually just earning it competitively.

01:18:16   **Matt Stauffer** So what you described is actually pretty hard to turn into legislation.

01:18:20   But giving your examples there, you came across two things that are not related to antitrust,

01:18:26   but are examples of the kind of legislation that we should have but don't. One example,

01:18:30   and we have laws like this all over the place, but we don't have this specific one,

01:18:32   you complained about when I subscribe to something and then it's like a pain in the butt to get

01:18:35   unsubscribed because you have to send a letter or call someone on the phone or whatever. A very

01:18:42   simple, straightforward consumer protection law that companies would fight tooth and nail,

01:18:46   but that I think we could actually get passed even in this country is companies must allow,

01:18:52   if for any subscription service, customers must allow unsubscription through the same venue that

01:18:56   subscription happened. So if you subscribe by mail, companies must allow unsubscription by mail.

01:19:00   If you subscribe by phone, companies must allow unsubscription by phone. You can offer all the

01:19:04   alternatives, but the law is whatever venue the subscription takes place in, you must also be able

01:19:09   to do the unsubscription. So if you subscribe on a computer... **Matt Stauffer** I think that is a

01:19:13   law in California already. **Matt Stauffer** Right. But this is an example of a very straightforward

01:19:17   consumer protection law that industry hates because they don't ever want to be told what

01:19:20   to do, but consumers would be like, "Yeah, that seems fair." And so they get passed.

01:19:24   Another example that you gave of, you know, what we're talking about Instagram selling the ads or

01:19:27   whatever, Facebook owns Instagram. For many, many years now, the part of our government that's

01:19:33   supposed to decide whether it's okay for one company to allow another has been just saying,

01:19:37   "Sure, whatever. Yeah, you can buy them." And we all know big, powerful companies like Facebook

01:19:43   get bigger and more powerful by finding a competitor and giving them an offer they can't

01:19:48   refuse, which is a pile of money and buying them. Right? And that's bad for us all collectively,

01:19:53   because we never, the competitors never get to grow and flourish because the big companies are so

01:19:58   big. Google, Apple, Facebook, Amazon, all of them are so big that, and this was true of Microsoft,

01:20:04   that if any company starts to get some kind of momentum, say in the social networking world,

01:20:08   maybe with a photo sharing app, Facebook will come along and say, "If we can't exactly copy what

01:20:14   you're doing and do that, we'll just buy you because we have so much money and it's worth

01:20:18   the money for us to just buy you and then absorb you into our hole and now we don't have to worry

01:20:22   about you as a competitor anymore." That's exactly the type of thing that our government is supposed

01:20:26   to examine and say, "That doesn't seem like a great idea to me." Buying television stations,

01:20:31   we used to have all of these, you know, precedent of like, "Well, we don't want you to own too many

01:20:34   television stations or television and radio combined." All these rules that used to exist

01:20:37   to try to not let anyone get too much control over the media. In recent history, it's been a free for

01:20:43   all to the detriment of everybody. So those are examples of non-antitrust laws that are relevant

01:20:47   to the tech sector that could be passed that could help all of us and help provide a more competitive

01:20:52   market. And I think those kind of targeted things, like targeted laws like that, that have nothing to

01:20:58   do with antitrust but just have to do with like regulating the marketplace, we need laws like that

01:21:03   for this new marketplace, relatively new marketplace, of apps and digital things. And

01:21:08   I think we can come up with reasonable common sense laws in that realm. A few of those, they

01:21:14   would affect all stores, not just Apple, and those would go a long way towards helping settle this.

01:21:18   One of the things that Casey said before, and you touched on as well, about Apple deserving revenue

01:21:22   for like, you know, or you buy a physical thing and Apple doesn't get a cut of that, but if you

01:21:26   buy a digital thing, suddenly Apple deserves it. And I was thinking, I think about this a lot of

01:21:31   like, you know, I don't know, I don't remember if this was in any of the court transcripts,

01:21:35   but like, what must the reasoning have been inside Apple when deciding on the initial

01:21:39   sort of decision of like, well, physical stuff that you can just enter a credit card and whatever,

01:21:43   we won't touch that. But for digital stuff, you know, initially just the apps themselves,

01:21:48   but eventually, you know, purchases and subscriptions and all that, any digital stuff

01:21:52   will get the 30% cut, right? How do they come up with that rule to begin with? Does it make any

01:21:56   sense? It doesn't make any sense from a deserved perspective at all, because the deserved perspective

01:22:01   in Apple's maybe sarcasm itself is like, well, you know, it's customer acquisition, like, we're

01:22:06   giving you access to our billions of users. And that's how you're getting new purchases of your

01:22:10   thing or new subscribers to your thing, right. But that is exactly true of the physical stores as

01:22:15   well, right? We're giving the people self physical stuff access to all these users too. But somehow,

01:22:20   we don't deserve the acquisition of that customer. But we do deserve it when it's a digital thing.

01:22:24   It's the same. It's the same customers, right? It's not, it's not like, you know, so deserve is

01:22:28   not a factor at all. Not that that's a even a concept that really matters in anything,

01:22:32   because it's all just about relationships and power dynamics, but forget about deserve.

01:22:36   What I think what a, what I can imagine might be a reasonable rationale for this rule to begin with

01:22:43   was when Apple comes on the scene with their new App Store or whatever, like non, you know,

01:22:49   physical good businesses have established business models already. Whatever you're selling, if it's a

01:22:54   physical thing, if you're renting space, if you're teaching a class, if you're selling, you know,

01:22:58   a car, like whatever, like physical goods, those business models are established. So Apple, I think

01:23:04   would have correctly recognized, we can't parachute in and say we get all we get 30% of all car sales

01:23:09   now. Like, there's no room for you Apple, in the in the car sale business model value chain for you

01:23:16   to take pretty much any percentage, but certainly not 30%. Right? And repeat for any kind of

01:23:21   physical good. It just there's no way they could insert themselves into that would have been too

01:23:25   much of a barrier to the growth of their of their business. They say fine physical goods,

01:23:29   existing business plans, but for digital stuff, a lot of which Apple, quote unquote invented,

01:23:34   not really, but like, wrote, developed themselves that they developed a subscription system for

01:23:38   their App Store, they developed just the purchasing of apps they developed, you know, in app purchase,

01:23:42   like all these things they developed. That's not an existing business model and relationship because

01:23:49   again, the parties are the consumer, the developer and Apple, and they're making this thing together.

01:23:53   And so there is no existing business model with no room for Apple to take a cut. So that's they said,

01:24:00   okay, well, digital, we're going to take our cut. And you can even think of saying, okay, well,

01:24:03   physical goods are going to be physical goods, but the future of our business is digital goods.

01:24:07   And more and more games are more games, more and more things are becoming digital, like for example,

01:24:11   games, which when they were rolling this out, we're still mostly sold on plastic discs. And today are

01:24:15   mostly sold digital, or I imagine they're mostly sold digital. But anyway, the trend is clear.

01:24:19   Digital is the future. So if we're going to put our stake in the ground, we'll say physical goods,

01:24:23   you have your business models, we can't insert ourselves in digital, we'll, you know, we'll try

01:24:28   to take a cut of everything. Doesn't make any sense from a Apple deserves perspective. Doesn't

01:24:32   make any sense from a Yeah, but why? What is different about this? Even from a marginal cost

01:24:37   perspective, it may like the things that Ben was saying about, you could come up with percentages

01:24:42   based on whether the thing has marginal cost that makes sense from a customer corporate relationship

01:24:46   management perspective, because that's an example of a compromise that you could come to that has

01:24:50   rationale to say, we understand that you have to pay some incremental costs for every one of these

01:24:55   things, therefore, our percentage has to be less like that's the way Apple can work that deal out.

01:24:59   But that's more of like an internal deal making thing and less of you know,

01:25:03   less of a philosophy for the entire structure. And a good example of the physical versus digital

01:25:09   thing is ebooks, right? ebooks are entirely electronic, and Apple didn't invent them.

01:25:14   But it just so happens, stupidly, as I wrote about in an article by ebooks ages ago,

01:25:20   ebooks decided that they're going to take the business model of physical books and just use that

01:25:25   one. Like there's an existing business model for physical books involving publishers, authors and

01:25:30   retailers and all that stuff. And when ebooks came around, the industry grew up saying, oh, yeah,

01:25:35   the paper book model, ebooks, we're going to use that same model, royalties, publishers, authors,

01:25:40   retailers, you know, the whole nine yards down to the point where, when the book went from hardcover

01:25:45   to softcover, the ebook price would decrease. Because the models were so joined at the hip.

01:25:51   Right? I'll find a link to my old ebook thing you can read about it. But it was it was grim.

01:25:56   It's better, slightly better today. But the book business was very dumb in many ways, right. But

01:26:01   that's an example of a digital business where Apple has had a lot of problems and where they haven't

01:26:07   been able to get such a big foothold because it was it was a digital business that was would model

01:26:12   itself on a physical one. And like I said, in the physical businesses, there's no room for Apple to

01:26:17   parachute in and say 30% for us. Because all the parties involved are like, who the hell are you?

01:26:23   You don't get 30% right. And obviously, because ebooks aren't physical, eventually, through wearing

01:26:29   them down, you can kind of, you know, because there actually is 30% there, because there's no

01:26:33   actual book like this. It works itself out. But it was just it was interesting to look at as an

01:26:37   example of Apple's possible rationale for the physical versus digital divide, which is, what

01:26:43   can we get away with? Right? Can we get away with asking for 30% for physical businesses? And you

01:26:48   just look around and say, no, can we get away with digital? And the answer was like, yeah, probably.

01:26:52   But it turns out, in a bunch of cases, not really, because the digital businesses that are like the

01:26:56   physical ones, say no room for you. And then eventually, in the digital businesses where

01:26:59   there are big powerful players, if Apple tries to hold the line as they are now, turns out,

01:27:03   maybe not really there either, because no one wants to give you 30% of the Fortnite

01:27:07   vBooks, and no one wants to give you 30% of the Instagram ads and Facebook own Instagram. And it's

01:27:11   like, it's their their rationale was, like, it's not flimsy, but like, so sort of, it's non principled.

01:27:18   It's like, literally, what can we get away with? And it just so happened that what we can get away

01:27:23   with had this kind of guideline down the middle. It's like, it kind of looks like physical versus

01:27:26   digital. We can make that argument. But that I don't think is the reasoning at all. So it's not

01:27:31   about what they deserve. It's about what they thought they can get away with. And what they

01:27:35   thought they can get away with and what they can actually get away with, I think are diverging.

01:27:40   Jared Ranerelle Well, I would even say it's probably even simpler

01:27:43   than that for like, like, why they don't take physical good commissions is they probably that

01:27:51   part puts them in a in a much messier and more risky place with disputes and chargebacks. Like,

01:27:57   I think it's I think it could be that simple where like, you know, when when you have an

01:28:00   Apple in app purchase transaction, Apple's the merchant, you know, you are paying Apple directly.

01:28:05   If you have an Apple Pay transaction on the web, you're paying the merchant directly and Apple Pay

01:28:11   is just like the it's like part of the credit card intermediary system. And so when there's a when

01:28:16   there's a dispute on a credit card payment, the merchant is the one who gets screwed out of that

01:28:21   cost, not the credit card company, not the customer, like the credit card company will

01:28:26   refund the customer, and they will pull that out of the merchants account, and the merchant just

01:28:30   gets screwed. And so any dispute that would arise from, you know, an in app purchase, purchase,

01:28:38   Apple would be screwed out of that money. And I think it probably puts them in an easier position

01:28:43   with the credit card companies when negotiating, when negotiating like what to do about chargebacks,

01:28:47   that like, I bet if Apple just is only doing digital goods, then they can probably defend

01:28:54   a lot more chargeback things. Whereas for, you know, physical goods, if a merchant ships you a

01:29:01   physical thing that costs money, and then you do a chargeback, like the credit card company has to

01:29:06   be a little bit more careful. And there's probably different rules and different procedures and

01:29:10   different amounts of liability that everybody has in that process. So I think it probably is much

01:29:14   more likely as simple as Apple didn't want to get involved in like the physical goods disputes area.

01:29:21   Whereas with digital goods, disputes are much more straightforward and the cost of what somebody is

01:29:27   out who, you know, gave you an e-book for free is zero instead of, you know, some kind of massive

01:29:33   amount of money that they paid to build a car that is now somehow missing in the dispute process.

01:29:39   So part of what Apple can get away with is dictated by laws. And again, laws about the sale

01:29:44   and refunding and liability and physical goods, lots of those very well established physical

01:29:49   goods have been around for a long time. Laws surrounding the sale of digital goods and the

01:29:53   rights of customers and everything like that. Very practically non-existent compared to the laws

01:29:58   involving physical goods. So again, what can we get away with? Where can we insert ourselves?

01:30:02   And where will we be limited? If they were trying to do things in the physical world, like you said,

01:30:06   there are many, many laws and regulations and things that they would have to do right off the

01:30:10   bat, right? It's much harder to deal with that, right? Then the digital world where, and I think

01:30:16   the idea was because this is digital world that Apple and its envisioning of itself is inventing,

01:30:20   right? Like we're, we're, we're inventing this world. We're innovating, we're doing digital

01:30:24   descriptions or whatever. We can do whatever we want. We make all the rules because everything

01:30:28   is just bits and we're the bit company. And there are so few consumer protection laws and

01:30:33   laws relating to refunds and everything like that, that if we decide that developers can't give

01:30:37   refunds, then we'll just, we'll be the only ones who give refunds. And if we decide that if we

01:30:41   don't want to give you the refund, we won't, no one's going to stop us because there's no laws

01:30:44   surrounding refunds based on that. And again, there are state laws and there, you know, there are

01:30:48   digital laws related to digital commerce meant more than there were before, but compared to the

01:30:53   world of physical goods, where there's so many regulations down to this specific regulations for

01:30:57   specific kinds of physical goods. Like if you're, you know, I mean, to give an example, if you're

01:31:02   buying fertilizer, there's much more in different rules now than there were like a couple of decades

01:31:07   ago for lots of very sad reasons, right? Buying, you know, anything like live animals, buying

01:31:13   power tools, buying cars, like specific, very targeted laws. If you think about all the laws

01:31:19   involving buying and selling physical goods and how detailed they are and how specific they are,

01:31:24   then compare them to the laws surrounding the buying and selling of digital goods. You realize

01:31:29   the digital world is extremely unregulated, which is great for competition when everything is working

01:31:37   well, but when a few large players come to dominate, it means they get to set all the rules.

01:31:42   And it just so happens they all seem to pick rules that look very similar to each other. Again,

01:31:45   not because of collusion, but mostly because those rules benefit the big companies and give them more

01:31:50   and more power with which they can crush their competitors, leaving only one company being what,

01:31:54   by and large? MomCo? Pick your, what's the mom one in Futurama? Anyway, that's the future we're

01:32:01   trying to avoid. And whether they know it or not, that's the future these big companies are trying

01:32:06   to achieve. And I think everyone would be sad, including them, if they actually achieved it.

01:32:10   They just, you know, we've said of Apple thinks of itself as a scrappy upstart, but I think all

01:32:14   these companies have a difficult time envisioning themselves as bad or evil, except for Facebook.

01:32:22   They probably recognize that they're bad or evil. I know I bash on Facebook so much. A lot of it is

01:32:27   joking, but a lot of it is not. I'm sorry. I don't like them. But they deserve it. They deserve all

01:32:32   of it. Facebook makes Apple look like saints. Apple is like your good friend who's really

01:32:38   been a jerk recently. Facebook is like the devil themselves. It's like this very different level

01:32:45   of evil. I mean, I think even Facebook, probably even at the very highest levels,

01:32:53   they're losing sight of their effect on the world. But I think they probably mostly believe

01:33:02   that what they're doing is good for the whole world. Obviously, they're playing the game like

01:33:08   we want to win. We're Facebook. We want to defeat our competitors. And they have no problem doing

01:33:11   the Microsoft style tactics of buying your competitors or crushing your competitors through

01:33:16   anti-competitive mean and all that stuff or whatever. But the end that they're pursuing

01:33:22   is a connected world where we can all communicate with each other and yada, yada. And yes, they get

01:33:25   a big cut of that. But in the end, I think they actually buy into that division. They're just

01:33:29   very, very mistaken about what it is that they're actually doing. And that's why I get angry at them

01:33:36   because it's like, "I'm not going to be able to convince you that what you're doing is bad.

01:33:42   I just need to stop you somehow." Speaking of anti-competitive monopoly thing,

01:33:48   if you're worried that Apple has a monopoly in the mobile market, like social media,

01:33:56   like Twitter exists, but Facebook, I feel like is... They're not at Microsoft level still. Again,

01:34:02   it's hard to convey exactly how dominant Microsoft was at its peak. Facebook is not as dominant as

01:34:07   Microsoft was, but it's much closer. Facebook, at least in the US anyway, obviously the rest of the

01:34:14   world has different social networks, but in the US and I thought the last stats I seen recently,

01:34:18   like Facebook, however many billion users Facebook has, it was a extremely visible

01:34:24   chunk of the pie of human population of the planet. And that is disconcerting.

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01:36:32   show. All right, let's do some Ask ATP and James Andrews writes, "John, when you did your MacOS

01:36:40   reviews, how much actually was that OS X still at that point or did you were you during the MacOS

01:36:46   era?" No, I was in the MacOS X era and the OS X era. Okay, see there you go. Wow, gosh, it's been

01:36:53   so long, John. It's been so long. Literally as Casey was reading that question, John went into

01:36:59   the show notes document and put a space between Mac and OS. Because I feel like you could still

01:37:05   say generically Mac OS, which is the Mac operating system. There was no product name that was based

01:37:11   on Next Step, Unix, blah, blah, blah. There was a classic Mac OS. Anyway, yeah, it looks gross when

01:37:15   it stuck. Who is it that always insists on capitalizing the M? Does Gruber do that? Gruber

01:37:21   does it, yeah. Yeah, no, I don't like that. Anyway, I hate the lowercase M, don't get me wrong, but I

01:37:25   feel like if that's what they named it, then that's... Anyway, go on. Here's the question.

01:37:29   Let me just try this all over again. "John, when you did your MacOS reviews, how much of the review

01:37:34   changed between the review content based on beta releases and final release? Or how much of the

01:37:39   OS could you bank on staying the same versus stuff that changed? Was it consistent?" I remember during

01:37:45   the run of the show, you complaining and moaning unjustifiably about screenshots and how you had

01:37:50   to take them 84 times because every single time you took them, something changed. But I would

01:37:55   assume that some of the content also changed as well. So what do you say to James? I can say that

01:37:59   it definitely wasn't consistent, that's for sure. The fear was always there, and the worst case

01:38:04   scenario... I mean, screenshots were bad and just gave you that sinking feeling when you'd see the

01:38:09   GM build and they change some subtle thing that appears in every single window and you're like,

01:38:13   "Oh, because it takes so long to arrange those screenshots and everything."

01:38:16   Yeah, that's bad, but it's kind of a known quantity. The worst ones, though, were if there

01:38:23   was some... And this is... I had so little access to Apple back then, not that I have any access now,

01:38:27   but I had even less access to Apple back then, like zero access to Apple. It was just me out

01:38:33   there in the wild, and it wasn't even social networks like Twitter where I had a chance to

01:38:37   bump into and talk directly to Apple engineers secretly or in public. So there'd be things in

01:38:42   the OS, and I'd be like, "Is this supposed to be this way, or is this just a bug? Or is this

01:38:51   policy here an intentional policy change in this subsystem, or is it unintentional?"

01:38:58   And so behaviors, anything that I could think about, it was never clear to me whether it was

01:39:05   on purpose or not. And the worst thing that would happen is there'd be some kind of new change in

01:39:09   behavior or UI or whatever, and it would be a thing that I had a lot to say about. And I would

01:39:15   spend a page and a half explaining why this is bad or a page and a half explaining why this is good

01:39:22   or whatever and just make it a big part of the writing. And then three betas in, they would

01:39:26   totally change that. It's like, "But I was just building my review around this thing, but it turns

01:39:32   out you changed your mind, or it was just a bug, or that feature isn't shipping in those OS, and

01:39:36   you pulled the code for it out, and then you have to rewrite." And it's harder to do this to make

01:39:41   screenshots over again. At least you say, "Here's the old screenshot. I just got to make it look

01:39:44   like that." It's a fairly mindless activity. Rewriting, especially I always tried to have

01:39:48   some kind of narrative structure to these reviews. Rewriting the review, especially at the last

01:39:53   minute-ish, like as in the second to last or maybe even the final beta or whatever, and they change

01:39:58   something, you're like, "Oh, even if it's a bad thing, I spent three pages yelling at you about

01:40:02   this, and you just pulled the feature. Now I got to remove all that and fix it all together."

01:40:06   You know, it's just, that was the worst. And no, there was nothing you could count on.

01:40:12   Things would change up to the last second. You could never rely on, even if it's like, "Oh,

01:40:18   this is the GM build." No, the really real GM build, you always had to go for every build,

01:40:23   and more frantically as time went on, install it as fast as you can and go through every single

01:40:28   thing you wrote about over and over and over again and say, "Is this the same? Is this the same? Is

01:40:31   this still true? Is this still true?" It was really bad. It was a little bit better in the early days

01:40:37   when I could publish my review like a week after the OS came out and nobody cared,

01:40:41   because you'd have to go into a physical store and buy it and whatever. But eventually it became

01:40:44   downloadable and eventually it became free. And eventually I had to have the review up

01:40:47   the second the thing was downloadable by consumers. So the timing of making sure that you got the

01:40:54   final build and verified everything in it and rewrote and retook screenshots and had it ready

01:40:58   to go the second the thing was released. That's why I still have those school nightmares. I have

01:41:04   like the MAGOS 10 review deadline nightmares. Just not cut out for that kind of pressure cooker. And

01:41:09   it's the reason I'm kind of glad I'm no longer in that business. It was exciting,

01:41:14   but also terrifying. And yeah, Apple really didn't do anything to help there.

01:41:18   - Michael Boyle writes, "What approach or tools do you use to filter spam email? Do you use G Suite

01:41:24   on your domain and use built-in Google spam filtering? Other third-party email hosting

01:41:27   services, third-party dedicated spam filtering services, built-in email services on a basic

01:41:31   web post plus spam assassin or other, client-side filtering like Spamciv or just the built-in Apple

01:41:36   mail filtering?" For me, I have a Google backed email address and I rely on their stuff and the

01:41:43   stuff built into Apple mail and that's it. What about you, Marco?

01:41:46   - I've gone through a bunch of things over the years. I used to do Apple mail junk filtering

01:41:52   back forever ago. It was always okay. It was never great. I never used a lot of the alternatives out

01:42:00   there. I've never used Gmail, but I have used FastMail for a very long time. And for a while,

01:42:07   I used their built-in spam filtering, which is just running, I assume it was like a spam assassin,

01:42:12   either spam assassin itself or something like that, some kind of server-side Bayesian

01:42:17   filter thing. And then for a long time after that, I used MailRoute. They were a sponsor of ours a

01:42:23   few years back and they gave us free accounts. And so I've been using MailRoute, coincidentally,

01:42:30   literally for that entire time until this week. I literally just switched away from it this week.

01:42:35   And it's not that they did anything horribly wrong, but they've had a few additional false...

01:42:44   What's the thing where it reports good mail as spam? Is that a false positive or a false negative?

01:42:49   - Yeah, it's a false positive. - Yes, okay.

01:42:51   - It's confusing because spam isn't positive, but what it's supposed to be doing is identifying spam

01:42:55   and it has identified something as spam, a positive identification, but it's false.

01:42:58   - Got it. Anyway, so MailRoute has been great for all these years, but in the last month or so,

01:43:05   there's been a noticeable increase in the false positive rate. And so I decided to try

01:43:10   switching away from it. I haven't actually ended my account or anything. I'm just like,

01:43:14   temporarily, I pointed my MXs directly at FastMail and I'm trying FastMail's built-in stuff only.

01:43:20   One of the good things about FastMail's thing is it allows you to train it. You can tell it,

01:43:26   like, this folder, which I've set to my archive folder, use this as the training example of

01:43:31   not spam. So anything I archive is trained to be not spam. And then there's a separate folder.

01:43:36   There's one folder which is what they've filtered as junk. There's another folder that you can

01:43:41   designate, any folder in your IMAP account, you can designate as, like, learn that this folder

01:43:46   is spam. And so I'm putting stuff into that folder that I manually catch that they didn't catch,

01:43:51   which honestly is not that much stuff. They're actually catching most of it.

01:43:54   So I've only been doing this for a few days, so take this with a grain of salt. But so far,

01:44:00   FastMail's modern spam filtering, which is, I think, significantly more advanced than the old

01:44:06   SpamAssassin-type server, I think it's pretty good so far. And it's also noticeably faster than

01:44:12   MailRoute for new stuff to come in and everything. I don't think they're doing gray-listing as

01:44:15   aggressively and everything, so it's actually quite nice. So anyway, that's my solution,

01:44:19   is currently FastMail, just their built-in filtering with my training boxes for some

01:44:26   minor adjustments, but up until very recently, FastMail with MailRoute in front of it.

01:44:30   So I use Gmail and Gmail spam filtering, and it's mostly okay. I mean, I still have to wrangle it a

01:44:40   little bit, and there are certain things that just doesn't seem to want to learn, but in general,

01:44:43   it doesn't bother me. I bet I have many email addresses, so I have exposure to a lot of other

01:44:46   ones. Back in the day, when I was using POP and IMAP and everything, I used SpamSieve and loved it,

01:44:50   but it's kind of the, as I talk about before, my sort of switch from client-side to server-side.

01:44:56   I'm happy to have it all server-side. For server-side, I also use MailRoute on one of my

01:45:00   addresses. I think MailRoute was a former sponsor, and I'm happy with it, how it works on my one

01:45:05   account that I use it on. I get the emails that show me the messages that it's not sure about or

01:45:10   whatever, and it's right like 100% of the time, but that's a low-volume account, so it's pretty

01:45:14   easy to do. But I'm happy that I have that because it catches a ton of stuff. What I want from a low

01:45:19   volume email, I want it to actually be low volume, but if you get any publicly accessible email

01:45:23   address, if something becomes flooded with spam, instead what MailRoute does for me in that account

01:45:26   is, or I have several accounts actually going through it, it makes it so they are low volume,

01:45:31   only legit emails get through. The thing I want to talk about though is, I also have, you know,

01:45:36   multiple, but anyway, Apple iCloud accounts, and iCloud accounts come with their own email address,

01:45:42   right? And I use Apple Mail on my phone to receive them because I have no choice because it's

01:45:46   the only thing I can use as my outgoing email client, so I have to set it up,

01:45:50   and so it's set up with one or more of my iCloud accounts. I use Apple Mail on my phone,

01:45:56   and I'm surprised when this question said, where is it, you know, built-in Apple Mail filtering,

01:46:02   and you two referred to it as if it's a thing. As far as I've been able to determine,

01:46:06   my iCloud Apple email address does no spam filtering whatsoever because the spammiest messages

01:46:14   in the entire universe come in like a flood to that email address. Viagra, Russian mail order

01:46:21   brides, mesothelioma, like the worst kind of spam, things in languages that I don't understand,

01:46:28   you know, Chinese language things, Russian, Italian, just like, how can you not tell this

01:46:33   is spam? This is the easiest to detect spam in the world, and it's like 100% of it comes through.

01:46:39   And then what I do in reaction to that, what I still do, is I use this horrible Apple Mail

01:46:43   interface and hit the little reply button and scroll down to find the file as junk thing.

01:46:50   I do that hoping against all hope that hitting that button somehow tells something in the Apple

01:46:56   Mail world to learn that this is spam, but I think it does nothing except remove the message to a

01:47:01   folder. So Apple's quote-unquote spam filtering is apparently, from my perspective, non-existent

01:47:09   and non-functional, and yet every day I have to go in there and clean out that stupid spam because

01:47:14   I'm forced to have an Apple Mail account that's configured with a thing so I can send outgoing

01:47:18   mail from my phone. Thumbs down for Apple Mail. Wait, slow down. Why do you need it to send

01:47:24   outgoing mail from your phone? To send outgoing mail you have to configure an account in the

01:47:29   Apple Mail client. So I have to configure a account. Oh, because you're saying you use

01:47:33   Gmail normally, so you're using the Gmail app normally. Right, yeah. Well, you could,

01:47:38   why not just add Gmail though? Because Apple Mail on iOS can't handle my Gmail account,

01:47:42   are you kidding? It can't handle that much mail. It would just, like, I think I did that in the

01:47:49   early days. There's no way, there's no way. Like, I don't want Apple Mail anywhere near my Gmail

01:47:54   account and there's just no way it would be, like, I don't even want it having to try to download

01:47:58   that amount of mail each day in the background or whatever it's doing. Like, just, like, in theory,

01:48:03   the accounts that I use with my Apple Mail thing, I just use my Apple ones because I'm like, well,

01:48:07   I know the Apple Mail client will work with the Apple Mail server, so I feel like they're a match

01:48:11   set. But I have to have one configured because you can't send outgoing mail through it until you

01:48:15   configure an account. Fair enough. Finally, Chris Anderson writes, "Like many listeners, I'm sure

01:48:22   I've amassed quite the collection of cables over the years, USB-A, micro USB, Lightning, Ethernet,

01:48:27   HDMI power, etc. The list goes on and on. Any suggestions on how to effectively store and

01:48:32   organize all those cables at home? I'm sure one solution would be to downsize the collection,

01:48:35   but you never know when you're going to need 20 USB cables all at once." I don't really have a

01:48:41   good answer for this. So Marco, do you have something good here? I would suggest not storing

01:48:48   or organizing too many of these cables. Whatever you are currently using, I would say—and you might

01:48:57   be using more than you think—like, actually add up what you're using and keep in reserve, like,

01:49:01   20% more, you know, for the very common types. For the very uncommon types, I would say keep, like,

01:49:10   one to two of each one that you still have any potential use for in your house. Like, obviously,

01:49:18   if you don't have any devices that use, like, FireWire anymore, you don't need to keep any

01:49:23   FireWire cables. That's an easy one. Not everybody practices this, but that's an easy one. Just

01:49:28   throw away any cable that you no longer have a device for. But yeah, for stuff like, you know,

01:49:34   USB cables. Well, yeah, we do need a lot of USB cables, but almost everything that needs a USB

01:49:41   cable comes with a USB cable also. So you don't need to keep that many in reserve. You're basically

01:49:46   keeping in reserve, like, either cables for specialty needs, like super long or super short

01:49:51   ones, or cables to replace other cables that get worn or broken or lost. And that—unless that

01:49:59   happens a lot in your house, like, if you're burning through—you know, maybe keep the USB-8

01:50:04   or Lightning ones that your kid's iPad uses, because those will get burned through a lot.

01:50:08   But otherwise, like, you know, you don't need to keep most of these cables.

01:50:11   At any given time—like, everyone's had one of these stories in life—I've been there, trust me—where

01:50:17   you are—you don't have the right cable. Right now, I actually have this going on right now.

01:50:22   I don't have an HDMI cable. I need one. I don't have one. I have to order one. It's gonna take,

01:50:26   you know, three days to get here. Had I just kept an extra HDMI cable at some point in my life,

01:50:32   maybe I wouldn't be in this situation. Anyway, we've all been in the situation where you need

01:50:34   a cable, and you have to, like, go to Best Buy or something, and you have to get the stupid

01:50:40   gold-plated one for $45, and you're just like, "Ugh! I know I'm being ripped off, but I need this

01:50:47   cable today. I can't get, you know, any drones or trucks to deliver it to me same day. So I just—I

01:50:54   have to just eat it and just buy it." And then that scars you for life. And then after that point,

01:50:59   you'll never throw away a cable, because what if you need this someday? Because you were burned

01:51:04   once. And it's important to be able to examine this feeling and this trauma and this past battle

01:51:11   that you fought and learned this lesson from and try to unlearn it, because chances are

01:51:17   that doesn't happen very often for almost any cable type. And you're probably doing yourself

01:51:23   a disservice by keeping, like, three bins worth of cables of which you will only ever use maybe

01:51:33   three or four of. You know, most of those cables are going to sit around for years and years and

01:51:38   years until you finally realize, "Oh, I—it's been a while since I've used a parallel cable.

01:51:43   I guess I can finally throw this away." So, like, you know, ideally, don't let it get to that point.

01:51:50   Ideally, go through that process of throwing things away as you get them. So right now,

01:51:55   for instance, almost every device that I buy that comes with a micro-USB cable, I just throw it

01:52:02   right away. Like, literally, like, I empty the box out over the trash can. I take the device out,

01:52:08   and I empty over the trash can the manual, the USB-A to micro cable, and, like, the little plastic

01:52:15   thing that holds it in the box. I just dump it all out. All that's garbage. Get rid of it.

01:52:20   There's no reason to even keep a micro-USB to A cable from me now because I have so many of them

01:52:25   all over the place that when a new one comes into the house, it just goes straight into the garbage.

01:52:28   I'm almost to that point with Apple's Lightning cables. Apple's Lightning to A cables, but we—again,

01:52:34   we're burning through those because we have an iPad problem, so we're burning through those

01:52:38   kind of quickly these days, so I'm keeping those. But, like, you know, even, like, you know,

01:52:43   certainly a USB-A to B cable, almost anything that has a USB-B port comes with a USB-A to B cable.

01:52:52   As you're transitioning to USB-C, we need even fewer of these old cables. If it's something that

01:52:58   I'm bringing with me for travel, it doesn't need to be USB-A at all because my travel setup is all

01:53:04   USB-C. Adopt a strategy of aggressively throwing things away as you go. How many Ethernet cables

01:53:12   do you really need? You know, it's more than zero, probably, but I bet it's less than 15.

01:53:16   You know, how many HDMI cables do you need? Well, how many HDMI inputs do you have in your house?

01:53:22   Three to eight, probably, total. Like, do you really need more than eight HDMI cables total,

01:53:30   including the ones that are already connected to the TV? Probably not. All right, so you can

01:53:34   kind of do this kind of exercise. Like, just anything that you think odds are pretty low I'll

01:53:39   ever actually need this many of this thing, just throw it away. And ideally, the cable collection

01:53:46   that you should be left with after doing that kind of, you know, thorough and ruthless purging of

01:53:52   your collection should be so small that you don't need to put much effort into organizing it.

01:53:58   It should organize itself because there should only be, like, a handful of cables left.

01:54:01   John, how is your attic in terms of cable management?

01:54:06   Poor Chris just wanted to know how to store and organize cables and we're all just telling

01:54:09   him to get rid of his cables, which he just specifically said he didn't want to be told to do.

01:54:13   My life is complicated by the fact that, like, the Marco rule of, like, when you no longer have

01:54:18   devices to use the cable, you can get rid of them does not help me because I don't get rid of my

01:54:22   devices. I have devices that need SCSI cables, so of course I'm going to keep the SCSI cable.

01:54:27   Because whatever it is, yeah, it doesn't make sense.

01:54:28   Well, then keep the SCSI cable in the box of the thing that actually uses it.

01:54:31   Yeah, yeah, yeah. But anyway, I have a lot of cables and having spare cables is handy too. But

01:54:38   my sort of management technique for this, and by the way, the two things you mentioned,

01:54:41   interestingly, HDMI cables and Ethernet tables, I am chronically low on.

01:54:45   And, you know, it's constantly annoying me. Like, if I need to hook up, like, a single other device,

01:54:49   if I even know that I find out I have zero Ethernet cables in the house and then I buy one, right,

01:54:52   and every time that happens, I'm like, I have zero Ethernet cables. When I got the Mac Pro,

01:54:56   I actually did buy some new Ethernet cables, but I think I'm using all of them, so I think I'm back

01:54:59   to zero. Same thing with HDMI. I have, I found an HDMI cable that went bad, that was driving me

01:55:05   bad-y for a little while, back before I got my Mac Pro, and I put a big, like, piece of tape on it

01:55:10   that said "bad," because it wasn't totally bad. It would work sometimes. Oh my god, John.

01:55:15   It was the only, but here's the thing, it was the only one I had in the house. Like, every other one

01:55:19   was connected to a device. Oh my god. I think it might have been when I got my PlayStation monitor.

01:55:24   This was literally the only one that I had. I couldn't get rid of it because then I could not

01:55:28   use it at all, but it was bad because occasionally it would conk out and I'd have to unplug it and

01:55:32   plug it back in, but it was better than zero. But as soon as I got my, you know, got back on my cable

01:55:37   buying spree, the bad one goes in the garbage, right? So my advice for storing and organizing

01:55:42   cables is to treat your house like a cash hierarchy for cables, and have the sort of,

01:55:48   have the sort of the registers, the L1 cache, be the cables you actually need to use with your

01:55:53   devices, the Marko rule, right? So when I got my whole big Mac Pro setup, I had a big pile of cables

01:55:57   that no longer plugged into anything in this room. Every single one of those cables went to L2 cache,

01:56:02   or maybe L3, whatever my attic is, right? HDMI cables, I have the connected ones. I have an

01:56:08   accessible small amount as my L2, and then my L3 is I have a Tupperware bin where I keep HDMI cables,

01:56:13   you know, now that I have more of them than I need, right? So have a caching hierarchy,

01:56:17   and what you can do with the caching hierarchy is, you know, just in the ones that you use all the

01:56:20   time, like constantly reassess those, because if you literally have no micro USB devices that you

01:56:24   use, that should not be, you should not ever see that cable. And as you graduate cables up the

01:56:29   hierarchy, you will eventually sometime come to like one of these Tupperware containers,

01:56:33   and you'll open it, and you, at that point, you'll realize either that the cables have become so old

01:56:39   and brittle and disgusting, you need to throw them out because they're gross, and they're probably

01:56:42   broken. Or B, you realize, actually, I don't have any devices that use this cable anymore,

01:56:46   and you'll just throw them out. But you need to get them, you need to get them out of your life

01:56:51   before you get them out of your house. That will help you with organizing them. And if you think

01:56:55   you need, you have so many cables that you need literally in your life that you need to organize

01:56:59   them into like, I people like the idea of having a big drawer that you can pull out and see all the

01:57:03   cables, but that's too much in your life. Unless you actually run a computer repair store or

01:57:07   something, you don't need that ready access to these cables. They can go into the more distant

01:57:12   caches. You'll know they're there when they need them, if you need to write down where they are,

01:57:15   or whatever. But then you care less about them being neatly coiled or divided or labeled. They're

01:57:19   just, they're out of, they're out of sight. And the out of sight stuff, when you go on your various

01:57:25   purges, that's where you purge from. Because you'll find that easier when you, when you literally

01:57:28   haven't seen it for a year, and you come upon it again in a Tupperware thing, it's much easier to

01:57:32   dump it than if it had been sitting coiled perfectly in a little drawer next to your desk

01:57:36   the whole time. Thanks to our sponsors this week, Linode, Backblaze, and Mint Mobile. And thank you

01:57:42   to our members who support us directly. If you want to become a member and get some cool benefits,

01:57:46   go to atp.fm/join. And we will see you next week.

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01:58:53   So right before we started recording, something appeared in the After Show section of the show

01:58:59   notes. And it says, "John's Mac Pro Woes." Oh no.

01:59:07   Yeah.

01:59:08   What's going on?

01:59:09   I saw this too. Right at that moment, I'm like, "Oh no, this is not good. Oh John, what's, what's up?"

01:59:16   Hmm. Well.

01:59:17   Should we pour you a Sprite?

01:59:18   [laughter]

01:59:19   It's one of those, no. It's one of those things where, it's like one of those, not a slow moving

01:59:25   disaster, but like it's kind of a gradual thing where I'm trying to pinpoint like, "When did this

01:59:29   all begin?" Because it begins innocuously and you don't pinpoint the time, right? Here's how it

01:59:34   began. I'm pretty sure this is, this is where it began. I was back from my vacation and I was

01:59:41   making another photo book as I do after my vacations. This is going to be the first non,

01:59:45   well, it's not the first non-Long Island photo book, but it's going to be the first year without

01:59:47   a Long Island photo book. I've made photo books of my trips to other places like Walt Disney World or

01:59:52   whatever, but anyway. I'm making my photo book and I made it all up and after you submit the photo

01:59:58   book, like it takes a while to upload all the images, much, not because of my connection,

02:00:02   but just because the server on the other end is slow. So it's like, "All right, fine.

02:00:04   Fapple Photos is preparing the photos and uploading it and blah, blah, blah." So I left. I left,

02:00:09   like, "Fine, you go upload these computers." And I was, and then I just like watch a TV show

02:00:14   with my family. And then I, and then later I'm like, "Oh yeah, the computer's probably done doing

02:00:17   that book." And I came back in and the screen was off and I'm like, "Oh, it must've gone to sleep.

02:00:24   It must've finished the upload and gone to sleep." But then I couldn't wake it up. I was like, "Huh."

02:00:29   You know, I tried, you know, space bar, mouse button, you know, like the fans were going,

02:00:36   but it wasn't, nothing was happening. So I went to another computer and checked, couldn't ping it,

02:00:40   couldn't SSH. Right. And I'm like, "Well, I don't know. Well, maybe, maybe that, maybe the thing

02:00:45   crashed something in the photo extension. Who knows what could have happened?" It was so long

02:00:49   though. I'm like, "Surely the book went through." Right. And so I, I hard reset my computer, held

02:00:55   down the power button. The thing booted back up. I could see in the email, there was a confirmation

02:00:58   email and I think the book is actually being shipped to me now. So I'm hoping when the book

02:01:02   arrives, it hasn't arrived yet, but I hope when it arrives that it will have all the pictures in it.

02:01:05   Like, you know, anyway, I think the book actually did go through, but that was the first instance

02:01:09   I can remember of, you know, I couldn't wake my computer up. Right. And then a couple of days

02:01:15   later, similar thing happened where I wasn't doing anything of note in particular, but then I went up

02:01:20   to my computer to wake it up and it didn't wake up. Like it was asleep, dead asleep. Right. And

02:01:26   then I hit the space bar and the fans would spin up. Like, like it's coming back to life. Right.

02:01:30   And I could hear my hard drive spin up, my, my few spinning hard drives in there, but it wouldn't,

02:01:35   wouldn't wake up. Same deal. Can't SSH in. Can't, you know, can't ping, can't do anything. Right.

02:01:40   And yes, I have SSH enabled in this computer and all that stuff. It's the thing I do all the time.

02:01:44   I don't think I had time to investigate it then, but then like the next day I was thinking about

02:01:50   it. I'm like, wait a second. Cause I'd been messing with my sleep settings cause I'd been doing some

02:01:54   long running stuff. And then sometimes various times I have a Mac configured to never go to sleep,

02:01:58   but I manually put it to sleep sometimes. And I also have it scheduled to wake up in the middle

02:02:02   of the night and do things. And for awhile, it was like, maybe it's waking up in the middle of the

02:02:05   night and flipping out about something or whatever. But eventually after a couple of days, it's like,

02:02:10   all right, maybe there's something wrong here. So, you know, I do an experiment, put my computer

02:02:15   to sleep manually, which I hadn't done a long time. Cause I've been doing those long running

02:02:18   tasks, try to wake it up. Doesn't wake up hard reset and do that experiment a couple of times.

02:02:24   And I start to come to this drawing realization that my computer no longer wakes from sleep.

02:02:32   Right. And I'm thinking what changed recently. And it's hard to pinpoint cause you're like,

02:02:38   when did this really happen? Was the photo book thing that really the first one or did the photo

02:02:41   book thing really crash? Like what's what happened recently? So I, I start going through basic

02:02:46   troubleshooting stuff. Right. And I, I mean, I, maybe I started down the wrong path,

02:02:51   but the first thing I'm always thinking of was sleep wake is, you know, I go into PM set of

02:02:55   looking at the sleep wake log. I have like, I have all I'm when I tried to do, like, when I first got

02:02:59   it and tried to stop it from waking itself up right from stuff I had, I had set up a lot of

02:03:04   systems for looking at all the sleep and wake reasons and everything like that. But the problem

02:03:08   with this situation was it would go to sleep and the logs would all say, yep, totally. I'm going

02:03:13   to sleep just like you told me to. And the next log message would be booting up. Like there was

02:03:18   nothing happening. Like when I thought I was waking it up, it never got to the point where it woke up.

02:03:23   Like there were no other logs. It was the last log message would be, I'm going to sleep. And the next

02:03:26   log message would be hello, I'm booting. Right. And so my sleep wake logs and everything else

02:03:32   weren't helping. Then I went into just, okay, let me try all the different sleep settings,

02:03:35   power nap on and off, uh, spin hard drives up on it. Like all settings that I had configured and

02:03:40   messed with earlier, but I'm like, maybe there's something wonky about something or others. Let me

02:03:44   see if changing any of these software settings helps. Nothing helps. You know, no matter what

02:03:48   I had it set to you put it to sleep and that was it. It would not wake back up again. Right.

02:03:53   Then I'm starting to, well, I think I did a really reasonably sensible thing, which is like,

02:03:58   I have big Sur on an external desk. I'm like, well, one of the things that happened recently

02:04:03   is upgraded to 10, 15, six, right. That was like recently like less weakish or something,

02:04:08   or I don't know. Anyway, it's, it's a recent, it's a recent OS update. It's like maybe 10,

02:04:11   15, six broke sleep, broke sleep on the Mac pro. And it's not the type of thing I'm likely to hear

02:04:15   about because nobody has these computers. Let me boot into big Sur. So I put into big Sur,

02:04:19   it's beta five at that point, right? I put the computer to sleep. Doesn't wake up.

02:04:24   And you know, I repeat that, but the computer's leaving big Sur. It doesn't wake up. I'm like,

02:04:27   all right. All right. Now, now I'm suspecting hardware. Cause if this is a software thing,

02:04:32   it's not 10, 15, six, and it's not big Sur beta five. Cause they both do it and it's exactly the

02:04:38   same symptoms. So now I think I have a hardware thing. So I'm like, okay, hardware thing. The

02:04:42   first thing I look at, can you guess the first thing I look at on my desk? Your screen. Why would

02:04:49   it be your screen though? No USB hub. I always suspect the USB hub because they're like, well,

02:04:55   you know, this is, I've had this USB hub. This is the one piece of hardware I've still had from,

02:04:59   that I use with my old Mac pro. So I'm suspicious of that. So like yank that out of the computer,

02:05:04   right? Just disconnected entirely. And this, this is such a pain because due to my wiring thing,

02:05:08   I actually have like my keyboard and mouse wired and they go through the hub. So I don't have to

02:05:12   have the two cables snaking. Anyway, I switched to, you know, using my keyboard in Bluetooth mode,

02:05:18   which I normally don't know just because it's convenient and I switched my mouse to Bluetooth

02:05:22   mode. Just connect the USB hub. It doesn't help. And now I'm like, all right, scorched earth.

02:05:28   I am removing everything from this computer hardware wise, but before they do that,

02:05:32   I ended up going to like the Apple support page and it's like, you should do an SMC reset. You

02:05:35   should do an NVRAM reset. You should do all these other things or whatever. Like, all right, I go

02:05:39   through the motions. I do an SMC reset. I do an NVRAM reset. You should spin in a circle. Yeah,

02:05:43   I do it. Like I do all those things, right? Because they recommend them, right? They also recommend

02:05:48   eventually getting the hardware things. You disconnect everything from your computer. That's

02:05:51   not an Apple keyboard, mouse, and monitor. Like I can do that. Right. I disconnect every single

02:05:56   thing. Just connect all the external hard drives. Just connect all the hubs. Literally the only

02:06:00   thing connected to this computer is an Apple monitor and Apple keyboard and Apple mouse. Put

02:06:04   the thing to sleep. Won't wake up. Right. I'm like, okay. All right. Still think it's hardware.

02:06:11   Because how could it not be hardware? Like Big Sur did it. And you know, what the hell? Catalina

02:06:18   also did it. It can't be the software update. Like two totally different OSes, you know,

02:06:23   are different enough. Have this exact same sentence. Right. So I'm like, okay,

02:06:27   what other weird ass hardware I've got? Well, I've got those spinning hard drives in there.

02:06:30   Maybe one of the hard drives is going bad. You know, if a hard drive ever goes bad,

02:06:33   you get weird errors. Right. And one of the things that happens when you wake up from sleep is the

02:06:37   hard drives spin up. So maybe one of the hard drives is like, is pulling too much power and like

02:06:42   undervolting the whole, you know, motherboard or it's tripping some safety measure or there's a bad

02:06:49   bearing in it and it can't spin up or like God knows what's going on. Let me just for a very

02:06:53   brief time, register my continued disappointment that you have the 2019 Mac Pro and you also put

02:07:00   spinning hard drives in it. That's the greatest. One of the reasons I like it is because I can put

02:07:03   them in there because it's way cheaper to get, you know, 16 terabytes of storage inside my computer.

02:07:07   If I had to do that in SSDs, you know, I already spent a lot. Anyway, so I go in there and by the

02:07:12   way, this is the beginning of the opening the computer phase of this operation, which lasted

02:07:16   a long time, right? This computer, as I've said before, is way harder to get to the inside of

02:07:22   than the old cheese grater. Cause that door, you could get off in a second. I used to take that

02:07:26   door on and off with the cheese grater, the old Mac Pro under my desk. I would just go under there,

02:07:30   flip poop thing comes off in two seconds. This thing, it's an ordeal to get off. I have to take,

02:07:35   the procedure ended up with is like, if you try to take it off when you've seen it in a little

02:07:40   picture and you just see the picture of where it is in the relay thing where I showed a picture

02:07:44   of my desk, become a really member, everybody and go look at the, you can see a picture of my desk

02:07:49   at home. I think I tweeted it too eventually. Anyway, it's on a little table. And if I try

02:07:54   to pull vertically the Mac Pro case off, it's actually hard to continue to pull perfectly,

02:07:59   vertically straight, starting from a position that's like a desk height because it's a tall

02:08:04   case and you end up like, I mean, I'm a tall person, but you end up, it's hard to, you have

02:08:08   to really pull it off exactly straight. If you do it a little bit at an angle, it's bad, right?

02:08:11   So my procedure was disconnect all the cables, of course, because remember you can't get the

02:08:16   case off without the cable. So disconnect all the cables, find someplace to put the cable so they

02:08:21   won't slide down behind my desk. Cause my desk is, has, is against the wall and has a wall to

02:08:25   its left and a thing to its right. So my cables, like if they slipped down to the floor, I have to,

02:08:30   on my belly crawling under there to find them again. So I like had a big piece of masking tape

02:08:34   and I'm like taping them. So take the cables out, tape them to wherever they're going to be,

02:08:39   lift the Mac Pro off of the little mini table, put it on the floor, pick the thing, twist it up,

02:08:44   lift perfectly straight up very, very carefully. Put that thing away, pick the Mac Pro, which is

02:08:48   very heavy by the way, up again, put it back on your desk and now you can work on it. So I did

02:08:53   that. I disconnected both of my spinning hard drives. I plugged the and, and the power to them,

02:09:01   by the way. So it's three connectors, it's two little SATA connectors and like a power thing.

02:09:04   Just kind of call three of those cables, put the case back on, put it in,

02:09:08   put it to sleep, wake it up at wakes like, all right, well, at least I found the problem. And

02:09:15   this is many hours into this because I said it really quickly here. I'm trying to say really

02:09:18   quickly, but remember every time I do this, it's a hard reboot of my computer and you know, and I'm

02:09:24   taking off these cables, I'm crawling around and like, it's just, it's, this is absorbing all of

02:09:28   like a Saturday, right? I'm like, finally found what it was. So I'm like, I was relieved to get

02:09:32   that, you know, the thing out of your head of like, at least I know what the problem is now. I don't

02:09:35   know why the problem is these spinning disks, but whatever I found the problem. I'm so hoping the

02:09:40   problem is your U-shaped piece of metal. I mean like the piece of metal does nothing, right? But,

02:09:45   but obviously the hard drives are hard drives are in that. I know, but like you focus so much on

02:09:50   like, you know, how ridiculous it was that this like, you know, basic piece of metal was whatever

02:09:55   hundreds of dollars that it was. And, and how could you, you know, how hard could it be to make a

02:09:59   piece of metal? They came with the eight terabyte hard drive, which was like, I suspected that one

02:10:02   immediately too. I'm like, I don't, I didn't pick this eight terabyte hard drive. I hate when I

02:10:05   don't pick the hard drive magazine. I picked the other one, which is a Western Digital Reb,

02:10:08   but I didn't pick whatever the hell this Toshiba thing is in here. So I made me suspect that. So

02:10:12   I was so relieved that I found the problem, but annoyed because I'm like, Oh, what am I going to

02:10:15   do now? Cause you know, again, it's like, you know, well, 12, 12 terabytes of storage. I can't

02:10:21   replace that with an SSD. I really need to have the spinning disc. So I'm like, okay, well, we'll

02:10:24   just set this aside. I went off and I did some other things. I did a driving lesson with my son

02:10:28   or whatever, and then like had dinner and then I resumed it. I'm like, okay, well now I'm going to

02:10:33   resume messing with this. What I really want to know now is which hard drive is the culprit,

02:10:39   right? So again, we begin the procedure and there are multiple combinations here.

02:10:44   You would think the only combination is plug in one hard drive, test it. And if it doesn't work,

02:10:47   you know, it's the other hard drive, right? But there are more combinations than that because

02:10:50   remember there are three connectors. Maybe it's just having the power connector connected that

02:10:54   does it right. And I made some mistakes where I disconnected one drive, but I didn't, I didn't

02:10:58   disconnect the cable at both ends. So technically that drive was still connected to power, even

02:11:02   though the data wasn't connected. So multiply by another like three or four or five or six opening

02:11:08   and closing and attempting to sleep things. And every time I did it connect drive one,

02:11:12   connect drive two. Oh, I forgot that first drive one test was invalid because drive two was still

02:11:16   connected to power. Disconnect both drives, but still have the power connected. I'm doing all

02:11:19   these different combinations and every single one of them, I put it to sleep. It doesn't wake up.

02:11:22   Right. And I'm like, well, I guess, you know, I like, maybe it's just if either of the drives

02:11:32   connected, it's bad. Maybe my motherboard is bad. Maybe the SATA thing is bad. And by the way,

02:11:35   yes, I ran Apple's hardware test, which seems much wimpier than it used to be. Like it didn't

02:11:39   take a long time to run. I'm like, please check all my Ram, do all my stuff. Like this hardware

02:11:43   test should take forever. It was disturbingly quick to run Apple's hardware test. Anyway,

02:11:47   I did all that testing. I'm like, no, in every single one of these scenarios, if I have that

02:11:51   thing connected in any way, the thing doesn't wake from sleep, but then I get the little itch and I'm

02:11:56   like, wait a second. And so I, I take the thing and I unplug all the cables from it and I try it,

02:12:03   put it to sleep, try to wake it up. It doesn't wake up. I was like, but that was the thing that

02:12:08   worked. Just kind of think everything is the thing that worked. And then I realized, because I had,

02:12:13   you know, I, I knew this was the case because I had a procedure for putting it to sleep, which was

02:12:17   put it to sleep and then wait a full minute after putting it to sleep before attempting to wake it.

02:12:22   Because sometimes when you put it to sleep, it takes a little while to actually go into sleep,

02:12:25   depending on what's going on. And it used to be able to gauge that by, you know, you can gauge it

02:12:28   by the fans turning off. This made me appreciate slash not appreciate how quiet these fans are,

02:12:34   because I'd have to shut, put my ear up to the thing to make sure I heard when the fans spun down.

02:12:39   And I, what I think is that time I had the thing and where it woke from sleep,

02:12:43   I had not waited for it to fully go to sleep. And so what I was doing is not actually testing the

02:12:48   problem. Cause if you hit the space bar or the mouse button before it really goes to sleep,

02:12:51   the screen turns back on and it's fine. Cause it never got to the sleep phase. Right. And I guess

02:12:56   I just didn't give it the full minute or maybe the air conditioning was on and I thought the fans had

02:12:59   spun down, but they hadn't. But anyway, now, now I'm back to zero after an entire day of this,

02:13:05   I'm back to zero because I'm like, no, totally disconnecting the hard drives also doesn't let

02:13:11   it wake from sleep. So I, you know, at this point I took, I took the entire hard drive chassis thing

02:13:17   with the hard drives and the Ben Pines just out of the machine. I put it over there right now.

02:13:21   Now I'm looking at other hardware. I'm like, all right, hardware. What's,

02:13:25   what's the problem here? You know, hardware test says it's nothing. I have two GPUs in this thing.

02:13:29   I have my big fancy 5,700, whatever it is, W 5700 XT. And then I have the crappy 5e

02:13:37   X that came with it. I'm like, I don't use that 5e X it's just in there. And on the off chance

02:13:41   that some program can use more than one GPU, like it's in there for computer purposes, but otherwise

02:13:46   nothing is connected to it. Let me get that out. So I take out the GPU that I'm not using. Right.

02:13:51   So I'm slowly stripping this machine down to basically closer and closer to stock configuration,

02:13:56   where it's just an Apple monitor and Apple mouse and Apple keyboard, Apple Ram that came with it,

02:14:01   the Apple internal Apple SSD, and an Apple video card, which is not the one that it came with,

02:14:05   but it is one of the built-over options now. And everything's all Apple, but the computer sleep,

02:14:11   try to wake it up. Doesn't wake from sleep. And again, every test comes back normal. I repeated

02:14:17   the SMC resets and did, you know, NVRM and just did everything that I could think of. And I'm like,

02:14:22   this has to be hardware. Right. So then I'm starting to get desperate now. And I'm like,

02:14:25   all right, I need some more data. Let me boot into windows and see if windows can sleep and wake up.

02:14:32   Oh God, you're getting desperate. Yeah. Did windows ever sleep and wake up properly?

02:14:36   On my Mac? Yes. Windows would properly sleep and wake up. And I spent time on windows to play

02:14:41   destiny and windows. Like, you know, that's the whole reason I have it. Like I'm, you know, I've

02:14:45   explored the world of windows treatment of HDR, which is extremely confusing. Right. But you know,

02:14:49   for the most part it works, but I know sleep and wake works because like the default window

02:14:53   settings are to go to sleep. So, and you know, it works. Right. So I boot into windows. I reconnect

02:14:58   to my one external drive that has windows on it. I boot into windows. I put the thing to sleep.

02:15:03   I wait for this fan to spin down for it to go to fully to sleep, hit the space bar. It doesn't

02:15:08   wake up again each time. By the way, I say that I'm doing this like, oh, what if it's just your

02:15:12   screen? What if your screen's just not waking up every time I was also testing SSH and ping

02:15:16   and it totally was unresponsive, harder to do with windows because I don't know what the networking

02:15:20   situation is, but bottom line does not do not wake up in windows at all. So I'm like, all right,

02:15:25   doesn't wake up in windows. It doesn't wake up in Catalina, big Sur windows. I've removed every

02:15:31   single piece of hardware. All my hardware tests tell me everything is fine. What the hell is wrong

02:15:36   with this computer? And the reason I'm pursuing this like a madman is like waking from sleep is

02:15:41   an important part of my computing life. Like I never shut down my computer. The only time I

02:15:46   rebooted is for OS updates. What I do is when I'm done using it, I put it to sleep. And then in the

02:15:51   night while I'm sleeping, it wakes up and does a bunch of backup stuff. And then it goes back to

02:15:54   sleep. And so the next morning when I wake up, my computer is asleep. And when I want to go use it,

02:15:59   I sit down in front of it. I hit the space bar or click the mouse button and it wakes up. That's how

02:16:03   I use my computer. If my computer does not wake from sleep, it's not like it's useless to me,

02:16:07   but it's pretty close. I need the computer to wake from sleep. That's why I'm pursuing this because

02:16:12   there is no work around. There's no viable work around. This computer needs to wake from sleep.

02:16:16   Kyle: And like, and I would love to make fun of you for having, you know, using a desktop computer

02:16:21   this way. But the reality is like waking from sleep is an advertised and supported feature of

02:16:29   this platform. And so regardless of whether you should want to do this or not, which I won't argue

02:16:35   with you today. What do you think people do? Shut down when they're done using a computer? What is

02:16:40   this, the 80s? No, just walk away. Yeah. Maybe turn the monitor off and that's it. The Mac Pro is,

02:16:45   you don't understand how much heat this thing generates and it's not winter. Like I cannot

02:16:48   have this thing generate. I do not have central air conditioning. It's a very small room. This

02:16:53   thing needs to be asleep. And even in the winter, like in the winter, it could serve as a space heater

02:16:59   and then it could be on all the time. But I don't want to just wear the fans all day long,

02:17:02   just spinning all the time. I didn't think I used a computer for 10 years. Like it's,

02:17:05   when I'm not using it, it should be asleep. But yeah, anyway, it has to work. Right. And I'm

02:17:10   getting really close right now. Cause I'm, what I'm trying to avoid is like, I'm already thinking

02:17:14   about how would I bring this to an Apple store? Right. I, you know, I've brought many large things

02:17:20   to the Apple store. So I'm like, Oh, that Mac Pro box is so beautiful. And my look, my luggage

02:17:25   carrier, Dolly, that I usually use to like transport, like my member of my old, uh, 27 inch

02:17:29   Apple, whatever led display thing that went to the Apple store. Like I transported that, but it did

02:17:35   beat up the box. And I don't, I don't want to have to get the box down and put it back in. And I don't

02:17:39   want to let people in an Apple store touch my Mac pro. Then I'm not even going to know what it is.

02:17:44   We don't even have one in our local Apple stores and they're just going to scratch it up. And I'm

02:17:48   like, Oh, but you know, maybe like maybe they can figure out what it is because they have way better

02:17:53   hardware diagnostics. And if it's like the, some controller chip is not working right. Or, you know,

02:17:58   like, Oh, I just, I just, I'm already thinking about that and I'm dreading it. Cause I'm like,

02:18:02   I'm running out of things to change or remove or do. The only thing I have left is

02:18:07   my new video card versus the crappy one that it came with. Right. And that was going to be my

02:18:12   next move to my completely cord out computer was to do the final revert to stock, take out my

02:18:18   upgraded video card and put in the one that it shipped with, even though they're both Apple video

02:18:22   cards and see if that makes any difference. Cause like maybe the video card I got, it's gone bad or

02:18:27   something. I don't know. I'm just looking for something in hardware. But before I did that move,

02:18:31   I had somewhat of a revelation. Do you, if you, if two of you figured out based on all my weird

02:18:37   hints and everything, what this might be, I've got nothing. One thing I'm considering is bridge

02:18:43   OS being a potential culprit. This is like the thing that runs the T2 basically, cause this is

02:18:48   a subsystem that would be operational on some level, whether it's running windows or, or,

02:18:55   MacOS, because it operates so many of the critical subsets of the computer.

02:18:59   So the only thing I think of is like something going weird with bridge OS.

02:19:03   That's exactly what I was thinking. Cause I have a T2 in this computer, right. Which is hardware,

02:19:09   but also it runs software. And, and I don't actually know this for a fact, but I'll just tell

02:19:16   you the, tell you what I experimentally determined. Right. So it's my understanding that when you do

02:19:24   an operating system update to MacOS, one of the things that can happen during an OS update is that

02:19:30   bridge OS can be updated, that the software that runs on a T2 can be updated. And that makes sense

02:19:34   to me because, you know, bridge OS is software and it needs to be updated as well. And I can imagine

02:19:39   those updates coinciding with MacOS updates. Getting back to my earlier thing of thinking about

02:19:44   what have I changed recently, right. To suddenly make my Mac not awake from sleep.

02:19:51   What immediately sprang to mind was 10.15.6, but like I said, like that's not it cause I've

02:19:55   rooted into big Sur and still have the problem. What else have I changed recently? Big Sur beta

02:20:01   five came out recently and I upgraded from big Sur beta four to big Sur beta five on the external

02:20:08   drive on this Mac. And the reason I wasn't thinking about it was like, well, I disconnected it though.

02:20:12   And I don't actually know if 10.15.6 or big Sur beta five are responsible or if either one of them

02:20:20   did a bridge OS update. Then I'm like, okay, before I try to take out that big video card,

02:20:26   but it's kind of a pain to get it out because it's really tall and unwieldy. Anyway,

02:20:29   let me try essentially reinstalling the OS on the T2. Right. So I had to look up how to do this

02:20:37   cause I haven't had a Mac with a T2 before and it's actually slightly different for all of them,

02:20:40   but Apple has really good instructions in doing this. You use the Apple configurator two thing,

02:20:44   you connect another Mac to it with, I used the thunderbolt cable cause I never know what the

02:20:49   hell cables to use it in these USB-C shaped holes. We're like, let me use the cable. It supports all

02:20:53   the things like the highest speed thunderbolt cables. It might've just been USB-C. I don't

02:20:57   even freaking know. You put it into one specific thunderbolt part. You put your Mac pro into DFU

02:21:02   mode, which is really weird, but that's when you put your Mac pro into DFU mode and you have two

02:21:06   choices. You can do what Apple calls a revive and a restore a restore. You do that and you're just

02:21:14   going to need to wipe everything on your computer. And yes, I have a thousand backups, but I really

02:21:18   don't want to restore from any of them. Partly because I have lots of good backups, but

02:21:24   it takes a long time to restore four terabytes. And I had podcasts to do. In fact, the day I was

02:21:36   doing this, I had a podcast. It was the special we did for Relay. That was the day this was going on.

02:21:41   Even if this succeeds, I don't have time to do a four terabyte restore for one of my backups.

02:21:48   So I didn't want to do that. So what I did was revive. And what revive does is in theory,

02:21:53   it does something to the T2 to get it back to a working state based on who knows what. But

02:22:00   the point is that it doesn't require you to delete everything on your computer. Because you

02:22:04   could imagine if you just erased everything in the T2, then you wouldn't be able to decrypt your

02:22:08   drives anymore or whatever. That's what I imagine the limitation is. But the restore is complete

02:22:12   wipe. So I did revive. I did revive and the thing rebooted and it came to the login screen.

02:22:20   And that's what I've been doing, by the way, to eliminate, is it some user account? Is it

02:22:23   something like that? This is before I tried different OSes. But on the login screen on

02:22:27   your Mac, there's a sleep button. So you don't even need to log in to test sleep. You can just

02:22:30   boot right to the login screen, then hit that sleep button and it will go to sleep. And then

02:22:33   you can try to wake it up. You don't even have to log in to test the problem. So it rebooted after

02:22:38   the revive, got to the login screen, hit the sleep button, waited for the fan to spin down,

02:22:42   waited for my one minute timer, woke it up. It woke right back up. Like, yes, I figured it out.

02:22:47   It's the T2. God knows what happened to the T2. I don't know if it was the Big Sur Beta 5.

02:22:54   That's my main culprit just because it's a Beta OS. I don't know if it was 10.15.6. I don't know

02:22:58   if it was something unrelated to either one of those and just something went bad in my T2. Who

02:23:01   knows? But it woke from sleep and I was like, sleep, wait a minute, wake, sleep, wait a minute,

02:23:06   wake. I'm like, yes, confirmed. It works. Everything's good here. Right.

02:23:11   And then I went to log in to my account. I'm like, good. I'm just going to get back to normal.

02:23:17   Go to log into my account. If I click on my face and I type in my password and it does a little

02:23:22   head shake thing. It's like, no, no, that's not your password. I'm like, no, it's totally my

02:23:26   password. And then I go click on my wife's face and try to log in with her password. It goes, no,

02:23:33   no, it's not your password. I'm like, no, it's not true. And then I go back to the login screen.

02:23:37   I'm like, wait a second. What happened to my daughter? Like, I normally see all of our faces

02:23:40   there, but it was just me, my wife, and my son. What happened to my daughter? Where did she go?

02:23:45   I'm like, what the hell is going on with this computer? And it really wouldn't let me log in.

02:23:50   And when I tried to log in, I have, you know the way you can put a hint for your password?

02:23:55   Like, I always put a hint there. The hint I always put is go away. That's not going to do with my

02:24:00   password. It's trying to give a hint to the person trying to get into my account without

02:24:03   knowing my password. My hint to you is go away. And it showed me go away. I'm like, all right,

02:24:07   well, this is my account. That's my picture. Those are my names. These are people, but A,

02:24:11   where is my daughter's account? And B, why can't I log in? So I reboot into recovery mode,

02:24:17   which I'd done many times over. And by the way, I left out some steps where I booted into recovery

02:24:21   mode, ran disk first aid in every volume. Like I did a whole bunch of the, I left out some of the

02:24:25   normal stuff that I did. So anyway, I was very familiar with booting into recovery mode. So I

02:24:29   boot into recovery mode and what I'm looking at, like, you know, everything else is removed

02:24:34   from the computer. So I've just got like my, my computer and my hard drive neighbor link, right?

02:24:38   So I've got link and link space, hyphen space data, which is the whole, the two volumes

02:24:42   that Catalina breaks up your stuff into. And there are actually more volumes than that. There's the

02:24:46   volume that I'm booting into in recovery mode. There's a recovery volume. There's a software

02:24:50   update volume. We talked about this with the APFS volume rolls. There's actually a whole bunch of

02:24:54   volumes there. That's how I'm able to boot. Right. But what I saw was that on this boot

02:24:59   into recovery mode, it showed the system volume, which is just called link. The read only system

02:25:04   volume just called link was grayed out and unmounted. And then link hyphen data was there.

02:25:10   Right. And I tried to mount link and it wouldn't mount. And I tried to run this for the first day

02:25:16   and I wouldn't run this for a second. And it gave me an error message that I looked up in Google and

02:25:20   saw a bunch of reports of people getting this exact error number, very long number. I forget

02:25:25   what it was, 429 something or very long error number and did a lot of Googling. They're like,

02:25:29   look, if a drive ever gives you this, it basically means that some records somewhere for that volume

02:25:35   is missing and it can't be mounted without it because the computer doesn't know where anything

02:25:39   is in it. And I've never found a way to recover from this. You just have to delete that volume.

02:25:42   Right. I'm like, all right, well, but that's the read only system volume. Like my data is in the

02:25:47   other volume and it's confirmed to be good. And I can run disk first aid on it. And it's like, yep,

02:25:51   there's your data volume. It's, you know, however many terabytes, all your stuff is there.

02:25:55   I don't need the read only system volume. I can just delete that volume. I can't mount it. I can't

02:25:59   do anything with it. I spent a long time banging my head against it, but I'm like, well, but I finally

02:26:03   figured out this problem. My T2 is cured. I can sleep, wake from sleep. I just delete this volume.

02:26:09   Right. And I was, I think it was just anxious to get it over with. If I had thought a little bit

02:26:13   more, maybe I would have realized this was not a great idea, but anyway, I deleted the system

02:26:16   volume and really, honestly, I'm not sure what else I could have done because that system volume was

02:26:20   completely useless. It was unable to be mounted in any mode, single user mode, anything. It could not

02:26:25   be mounted. Couldn't run disk first aid, couldn't drive FSCK. It was just system volume was like,

02:26:31   forget it. Right. So I deleted the volume. So now I've just got one volume called link data.

02:26:36   I create a new APS, FFS volume called link. I run the installer. And when the installer asks,

02:26:43   where do you want me to install? I say, please install on link, which is this new empty volume

02:26:47   I made and the installer dutifully runs. And by the way, I left this out too. I had to

02:26:51   reinstall Catalina at one point or maybe two points. I had to reinstall Catalina with, with

02:26:56   no effect. Like it didn't hurt my computer reinstalling Catalina is fine. And it just

02:26:59   didn't fix the sleep wake thing. Right. That was another thing that I tried. So I I've been very

02:27:02   used to the Catalina installer. So I'm very used to doing this. I picked the link volume. I

02:27:06   reinstalled Catalina. It rebooted. And again, it gave me a list of users, but with one user missing.

02:27:13   I was like, what the hell is, Oh, no, no, it didn't give me this user. This is different thing.

02:27:17   It gave, I can explain that one in a second. That was, I have to go back and explain that

02:27:20   because I think I figured out what that problem was too. But no, what it told me was to create

02:27:24   an account on this install, like create an account. Like there's a bunch of accounts

02:27:29   and link data. Why don't you just use those? And like, well, I don't know what that was going. So

02:27:32   I create an account and I intentionally gave it a different name so I wouldn't get confused. This

02:27:35   is a very important thing when you're debugging. Like I don't give volumes the same name. Don't

02:27:41   give user accounts the same name. You always have to know where you are and what you're dealing with.

02:27:44   So I created some temporary domain account. I logged into it and I realized what it had done

02:27:50   was taken link and made a second volume called link hyphen data with nothing in it and made

02:27:56   that new user account in it. So what I had was now the volumes I had was link with the OS link,

02:28:00   hyphen data with the user data that I had just created for this new account. And then another

02:28:05   volume called link hyphen data with my actual data in it. Oh my God. So the installer had

02:28:10   had installed onto link by breaking link into two volumes, both of which were initially empty and

02:28:15   then weaving them together. So then I'm like, okay, all right, well still the data's all there.

02:28:21   I just need to find a way to install the OS and tell it installer, don't make yourself a new data

02:28:27   volume. Use that data volume. It's sitting right there. You just need to make the OS volume and tie

02:28:33   it to that data volume. Just weave them together. And in my research and actually a personal email

02:28:38   to someone I thought might know the answer to this. The answer I got was, now obviously it's

02:28:43   possible to weave together two volumes in that way. Cause the installer does it, but I was not

02:28:48   able to determine a way that a user could do it. No command line tools, no secret technique, no

02:28:54   weird install invocation. It may exist, but I couldn't find it. Right. So now I've got this

02:29:00   computer with all my data intact that sleeps and wakes just fine, but I can't get like my volume

02:29:07   back. So you may be thinking at this point and then maybe if you're a casey, you're like, well,

02:29:10   fine, just I'll just delete all of it and restore from backup. Cause I just want to get this over

02:29:13   with. Right. But I'm not Casey. And so I didn't do that because that would be a mistake. Instead,

02:29:20   what I said is like, look, I need another copy of all this data right now. Yes. I know I have

02:29:26   a time machine backup, a super duper clone, another time machine backup on the Synology

02:29:31   and a backblaze backup. Right. And also my photos are on a whole second computer,

02:29:36   which has its own backblaze backup time machine backup and Synology backup. So my photos are,

02:29:39   have three other backups. Right. But that's not enough. So I had to get another hard drive.

02:29:48   And I looked around my house. This is where I like looking for cables. I must have another

02:29:51   spinning hard drive around here that can hold my volume. Right. It's I don't fill the full

02:29:56   four terabytes. Turns out I feel like two and a half terabytes. And the biggest hard spinning

02:30:01   hard drive I have now is two that's not currently used. So I had to order a hard drive. So I'd order

02:30:08   a hard drive. And during that time I'd order the hard drive. I did that podcast that we did the

02:30:14   relay special. I did a rectifs episode and now I'm doing this episode. Right. And the hard drive

02:30:20   arrived and I eventually arrived at arrived today. And I did a backup, a copy of the internal drive.

02:30:28   And it took about nine hours to complete. Right. This is just a straight copy from my SSD onto this

02:30:36   incredibly slow external spinning disk. So now finally I have my final redundant copy of the

02:30:46   other hard drive. Right. And what I've been booted into here during this podcast and erectives is I'm

02:30:55   booted into the new system with a new weird user that has nothing in it. And I just installed Skype

02:31:01   Audio Hijack and you know all that other stuff into there. So that's what I've been podcasting

02:31:05   from. And the reason I haven't attempted to restore like I could have attempted to restore

02:31:08   today after the nine hour thing. Right. But it was like that's going to take a long time. And if it

02:31:13   screws up I don't want to screw up this computer. So what I'm waiting for is a gap in my podcasting

02:31:17   schedule to try my best guess at what I can do besides restore because I still don't want to do

02:31:24   restore. Like I know I have all the stuff I still want to restore. What I want to do is delete all

02:31:28   the volumes except linked data and then point the installer at linked data and say installer install

02:31:34   the OS on this volume. And I want it to crack linked data in half and make an OS volume. Because

02:31:39   if you point the Catalina installer at any volume any like just single volume that has a bunch of

02:31:44   users and applications and you know like it just like a pre Catalina OS that's when it does the

02:31:49   weaving. That's when it says okay I'll make a new empty volume install the read-only system and

02:31:54   weave it together with that one using these firm links right. That's when it does the connection.

02:31:58   Now I don't have a complete pre Catalina volume but I do have a Catalina volume that has user

02:32:04   accounts and all this other stuff application folder and it actually has a slash system

02:32:08   quote unquote folder that is the old firm link to the old thing like so I but the reason I didn't

02:32:13   want to do that until I held all their backup is because like what if that screws up what if I

02:32:17   point the Catalina installer at my data volume and it says oh I'll just empty this volume out

02:32:21   and erase it or if it just hoses it entirely or whatever it is a valid option in the installer.

02:32:26   The installer does give you the choice if you can select the linked data to install onto it

02:32:30   gave me that choice before right but I'm afraid that's going to destroy everything. Now finally

02:32:36   after this podcast concludes probably tomorrow or the next day I will try to resurrect my computer

02:32:42   resurrect the data on my computer before I have to do the next podcast which I think is like Sunday

02:32:48   or something right so that's my plan that is my tale of woe it could have gone much worse but it

02:32:55   certainly could have gone better I spent a lot of time on this and it's not particularly satisfying

02:33:00   to have this conclusion where it was the t2 basically but why why was it the t2 I like the

02:33:08   beta 5 the big sur beta 5 theory unfortunately it's so vague that I can't even file a feedback

02:33:14   on it and say hey I have a vague notion that perhaps upgrading to big sur beta 5 hosed the

02:33:20   t2 such that my mac pro never woke from sleep and by the way every time I hard rebooted it and

02:33:24   and woke from sleep but offered to send a report to apple but the report is just like a boilerplate

02:33:29   like uh failure to wake from sleep I'm like yes that is what happened but there's no stack tracer

02:33:34   like there is a stack trace but there's a message at the top that says please disregard the stack

02:33:37   trace it's meaningless right because if you don't wake from sleep there's just nothing like

02:33:41   maybe dump something from nv room I'm not sure but anyway I sent a thousand of those reports to apple

02:33:46   during during the thing but I don't have enough to send a feedback or anything like that and by

02:33:50   the way the the missing child and the user thing apparently at some point it was able to boot from

02:33:58   an installed os but not able to see the data volume and when you do that the installed os

02:34:07   has a memory of the user accounts that have been logged into recently apparently but when you try

02:34:12   to log into them if it can't actually find the data for it it says wrong password right it's like

02:34:17   it the os volume says yeah I I've you've logged into these three accounts and you know in the last

02:34:23   year or something so I'll show these little faces and you can click on them and enter a password

02:34:26   when I go to validate the password apparently at that point it needs to like see the user's

02:34:30   home directory or something and that volume just wasn't mounted at all why wasn't it mounted and is

02:34:36   it I think my daughter didn't appear just because her account hasn't been logged into on my computer

02:34:40   since forever which makes sense to me because she never uses this computer and occasionally I log

02:34:44   into my son's to do something right but that was what that was the mystery of the missing account

02:34:48   and that was also the mystery of the the not accepting my password was that the data volume

02:34:54   was somehow unmounted or unreachable at that point again I have no idea why because the data volume

02:34:59   is the volume that's fine and has all the data on it as far as I'm aware so more updates on this

02:35:05   next week I'll tell you whether reinstalling the os onto the data volume worked I'll tell you whether

02:35:11   I had to restore from backup and then I'll tell you exactly how many hours it took to restore from

02:35:14   backup because I can imagine it's gonna take longer than nine holy smokes my my current bet is you're

02:35:21   gonna end up with a link data data volume and it will still have some kind of weirdness I mean you

02:35:26   can this is the thing by the way these names like they don't mean anything like remember I had to

02:35:29   link data to link data on you can rename it it's the mac you can rename the lines whatever you want

02:35:33   it doesn't get confused the volumes have ID have identifiers that are unique that are under the

02:35:36   covers that you never see you can rename your volumes to whatever you want which is why I

02:35:39   always recommend like if you're doing some stuff like even if you end up like I ended up with the

02:35:43   two link data volumes I immediately renamed like the new one it created to be you know something

02:35:48   different like new data or whatever so I could always tell them apart because it's so dangerous

02:35:51   when you have volumes that are named the same that you're going to screw something up but yeah like

02:35:55   in this situation like is it hardware or software and I was I was attacking it on both fronts

02:36:01   hardware I'm just going to remove every piece of hardware from the thing and run hardware to

02:36:05   software let me try it in windows let me try it in big sur let me try in Catalina the thing that

02:36:08   got me was it's hardware and software it's the t2 with software that you never think about but

02:36:14   totally exists but it's also hardware very frustrating I don't think it's unreasonable

02:36:23   if you know beta 5 did a new firmware install on the t2 and that was somehow not entirely backwards

02:36:31   compatible with Catalina like I I but it didn't wake in big sur either but yeah it could have just

02:36:36   been a bug it could have just been a big sur bug but I you know and that's why it's my biggest

02:36:41   culprit because like yeah for maybe the maybe big sur beta 5 had a bug that caused mac pros not to

02:36:45   wake from sleep but I could not find any report from it anywhere um and it doesn't surprise me

02:36:50   because how many people have mac pros and how many people have mac pros and installing big sur beta

02:36:53   5 it's got to be a small group and that's why I think maybe it's just something that was hosed in

02:36:56   my t2 or like maybe really was 10 15 6 I just don't know all I have is the experimental results

02:37:04   doing a revive and why the hell did doing a revive hose my my os volume like I don't think that was

02:37:10   an expected result of doing a revive the whole point of doing a revive is it's not supposed to

02:37:14   hose all your data and it didn't hose my data but it made my system volume completely unmountable

02:37:20   forget about unbootable unmountable so there are many mysteries here the only you know and that you

02:37:26   know and right now I have on my desk right out in front of me the guts of my computer I have my GPU

02:37:32   here I have a bunch of those little brackets that hold the thing in that I gave up and putting back

02:37:35   ages ago I've got my big hard drive sitting over there I've got a big piece of tape over there I've

02:37:41   got my new hard drive I've got a bunch of cables it's a it's a mess in this place I can't wait to

02:37:45   reassemble this all but first I will tackle the software part of it so that's the problem

02:37:50   having big large volumes of data restoring from backup even a local backup takes forever

02:37:56   and just I have to find a time in my life when I can set that off and have enough time for it to

02:38:02   finish I did do when we did our member podcast I did that from my uh from a laptop so I'm

02:38:08   successfully podcasting from a laptop and the world didn't end but I certainly didn't like it

02:38:11   I mean one could argue the world is kind of ending in lots of different small ways and

02:38:16   hopefully they aren't the fault of you podcasting on a laptop but I didn't but it did better

02:38:20   recording a podcast and apparently Casey's computer can never do I was going to say that

02:38:23   I had inherited Casey's like Casey's hardware curse but I don't know I feel like this is just

02:38:28   assuming my my uh guess about what it was this is just a really bad situation of like hey beta

02:38:36   software has bugs and I think I've said this on past shows back before all this happened

02:38:41   Big Sur has been the hardest experience I've ever had running software update on beta OS's and I've

02:38:47   obviously run software update and beta OS's since 10.0 right I don't know what it is about Big Sur

02:38:53   is it because of the ARM transition is it because of like a code fork merge between the ARM branch

02:38:58   and the regular branch or whatever like every single version of Big Sur like I'd install it

02:39:03   on either my DTK or my Mac Pro and then someone say hey there's a new beta of Big Sur out and

02:39:09   I'd go to software update and it would be this incredible battle to get the freaking thing to

02:39:13   install you wouldn't just click software update and update it would be like oh update failed

02:39:16   download failed can install I don't see an update and it was like oh reinstall the beta profile or

02:39:20   try this or use the command line tool the command line is failing some of it was user error where

02:39:24   I had like the boot security different or whatever but even on the DTK where none of that applies

02:39:28   I'd always have to be looking for tweets and googling and say how do you get to every single

02:39:34   update has been like pulling teeth including beta 5 I had to take 20 different runs at it to

02:39:38   get the thing to download and turn content caching so the other thing can get it because it could

02:39:41   fail the downloader from the I don't know what the hell Big Sur's problem is Big Sur running it has

02:39:46   been fine like I don't see lots of huge bugs other than cosmetic stuff inside the OS but actually

02:39:51   getting software update to run has been killing me it's probably because they replace software

02:39:55   update in Big Sur with the mobile update that they use in iOS for obvious reasons but yeah that's

02:40:02   super buggy so needless to say I will no longer be applying be installing betas of Big Sur on my

02:40:08   Mac Pro after this I'll still do it on the DDK that can get host fine but as far as I'm concerned

02:40:13   my Mac Pro is done with Big Sur until official release and even then I'm gonna make like a

02:40:17   hodgillion backups before before I install Big Sur on it because now I am terrified of a similar

02:40:22   thing happening again oh that was an adventure yeah I never want to open up this computer again

02:40:29   it's just so so stressful because it's like you know those bank high scenes where they're like

02:40:34   trying to lift like the diamonds out of the thing without hitting the lasers or trying on things

02:40:38   like every time I lift that lid off like it's not it's there's you have to do it perfectly straight

02:40:46   and smoothly and you don't want to bang these pieces of metal against each other I've heard

02:40:49   some horror stories of people who picked a little handle up and twisted and like there's some there's

02:40:53   some like padding stuff in there they can get all bunched up and it's just I'm really I really don't

02:40:59   you know I'm glad I hopefully will only have to open it up and close it one more time after I get

02:41:04   this sorted out but I'm way over my I remember when I first got it I opened to close it two or

02:41:08   three times like good I'll never be doing that again and now I've opened and closed like 50 times

02:41:11   I'm I'm over my limit