384: Equal Emphasis


00:00:00   I went a little freaked out because our server was just

00:00:04   massively hammered with a huge load spike, eight minutes ago,

00:00:08   and the load average went up to like 150, and I couldn't

00:00:11   figure out, looking at all the logs, like what the hell's

00:00:13   going on, why is this all of a sudden very heavily loaded,

00:00:16   no clue why.

00:00:17   Now, we still have all of our listeners on the livestream,

00:00:21   we have over 1100 listeners on the livestream, and the load

00:00:24   is 0.5.

00:00:26   And I'm a little scared that I don't know why.

00:00:30   - Is that something updating the location database?

00:00:33   (laughing)

00:00:35   Is it like the Linux equivalent of photo analysis thing?

00:00:39   (beeping)

00:00:41   I don't know about you two, but I feel overwhelmed

00:00:43   with the amount of content.

00:00:44   I know we've just seen at this point the keynote

00:00:46   and the State of the Union, and that's all,

00:00:48   but it seemed like there was more.

00:00:50   Now obviously this is a big year, there's a lot of big

00:00:52   important announcements, but it just seemed like,

00:00:54   even setting aside how important and momentous certain

00:00:56   announcements were, there was just more content.

00:00:58   And I have to think it's because the stuff was prerecorded.

00:01:02   When you do things live, there is a certain amount of slack

00:01:05   in terms of, I don't know, walking around the stage,

00:01:08   gathering yourself for the next sentence you're going to say,

00:01:10   certainly the transition between presenters walking off

00:01:13   the stage and a new person walking on, that takes longer

00:01:16   than a cut, any kind of live demo has way more slack in it

00:01:20   than a prerecorded thing where everything is perfect

00:01:22   down to the second, and I think even though the keynote

00:01:26   was not particularly long, it was like an hour and 50

00:01:28   minutes or something, they packed a lot of stuff in.

00:01:30   I feel overwhelmed with the amount of good, cool, new stuff,

00:01:35   and I hope we manage to talk about it all.

00:01:37   If we miss your favorite thing, don't worry,

00:01:39   we'll keep talking about the WWDC if history has been

00:01:42   a guide for the next several weeks.

00:01:44   - Yeah, 'cause usually in the summer there's not a whole

00:01:45   lot of news, especially as you get into July and August,

00:01:48   there's not a whole lot of news, so we will have plenty

00:01:50   of time to cover whatever we don't know,

00:01:51   whatever we don't have time for this week.

00:01:53   Although we do have more time than usual 'cause we're not

00:01:55   live for the first time in, what, three or four years?

00:01:58   - Yeah, I know, Jon, you're extremely relieved to be doing

00:01:59   this at home, but I think I speak for Marco in saying

00:02:02   that I'm pretty sad that we're not in front of all

00:02:05   of our friends, well, not all of our friends,

00:02:07   but many of our friends in San Jose or San Francisco

00:02:09   or what have you, but I'm glad that 1,200-ish of you

00:02:12   are joining us right now and hopefully many, many more

00:02:14   once this is released.

00:02:16   I gotta say, as quick overall impressions,

00:02:19   whoo, that was a lot.

00:02:20   It was a lot and it was fast.

00:02:22   You know, it's funny, I was one of the first to lament

00:02:26   the really lame demos and to complain about how the,

00:02:31   I don't wanna see, what was it, it was an anchor,

00:02:34   Anki, the caller, whatever it was, yeah.

00:02:38   But they gave us a chance to breathe,

00:02:40   and without those demos, this was fast.

00:02:42   I was trying to take notes as I was listening

00:02:45   and trying to keep up with Twitter and different slacks,

00:02:49   and it was just so much, so, so fast,

00:02:53   which ultimately is very, very good.

00:02:55   And obviously there's a lot to cover.

00:02:58   I don't feel like I've properly processed any of it.

00:03:00   I feel like I've processed less of it than when I'm there,

00:03:04   perhaps because all I do is talk about it all day long

00:03:06   with everyone I can see, and what with me being at the beach

00:03:09   with my family, I didn't talk about it all day long.

00:03:11   I just watched the keynote, watched the State of the Union

00:03:12   and otherwise ignored it.

00:03:14   But I don't know, I feel like my head is swimming,

00:03:17   and I don't know what to make of it one way or the other.

00:03:19   - Yeah, it's interesting, the format was so different

00:03:22   this year, forced by COVID-19 and everything.

00:03:24   And by the way, I really respect the intro by Tim Cook,

00:03:28   the kind of, where he sat down on the little stool

00:03:30   behind the empty auditorium and talked to the nation

00:03:34   about what was going on.

00:03:35   It was really well done, it was very tasteful,

00:03:38   and I think Tim did a really good job of handling,

00:03:40   this is a tricky time, this is tumultuous in a lot of ways.

00:03:43   And so that was handled well, I thought.

00:03:46   And then as for the format of the presentation itself,

00:03:49   being this kind of, I think pretty clearly pre-recorded,

00:03:53   presentation is almost the wrong word for it, I guess?

00:03:59   It was basically a pre-recorded video introduction.

00:04:02   It felt in some ways like a combination between

00:04:06   a cool demo and a more fun version

00:04:10   of a corporate training video, almost.

00:04:14   I don't mean that in a bad way, I know that

00:04:16   can be interpreted badly, I don't mean that in a bad way.

00:04:18   It seemed very produced, but if you look back

00:04:22   at recent years of Apple presentations,

00:04:27   we've said in almost every presentation that over time,

00:04:31   it has felt a little bit more artificial

00:04:34   and a little bit higher budget than what they appear

00:04:37   to be letting on with the artifice of it.

00:04:41   I don't know, it's hard to explain, but the presentations

00:04:44   that have been in person, in auditoriums so far,

00:04:47   for the last few years have been increasingly

00:04:50   corporate feeling, and they've had more and more

00:04:52   pre-produced video segments that they keep cutting to

00:04:55   and everything, and so it has felt more,

00:04:58   almost like a commercial.

00:04:59   And I think this format change that they were forced

00:05:03   to make this year is actually a positive thing

00:05:06   in the sense that it actually kind of fully admits

00:05:10   and embraces what it has been inching towards all along,

00:05:13   which is pre-produced, very high budget,

00:05:16   very high production value commercials, basically,

00:05:19   but done in a slightly more down-to-earth way.

00:05:22   And I think that better reflects the size

00:05:26   of the company today, it better reflects the importance,

00:05:29   the financial importance and the size of the community

00:05:33   and everything, it kind of better reflects

00:05:35   what the company is today, rather than trying to

00:05:39   keep this train going of this old presentation style

00:05:43   that Steve Jobs used to do, back when the world

00:05:46   was very different, the company was a lot smaller,

00:05:49   he was obviously still alive and still doing them.

00:05:52   And until today, Apple was still trying to replicate that,

00:05:56   and it was losing steam, like the old format,

00:05:58   I feel like, was losing steam over the last couple years,

00:06:01   and was starting to feel really stale.

00:06:02   And so there are parts of that that I miss

00:06:05   with this new format, and they might go back to it.

00:06:08   Once the virus is under control and they can have

00:06:11   large gatherings, maybe they'll go back to the old format,

00:06:13   I don't know, but I feel like this new format

00:06:15   is a more honest and accurate representation

00:06:19   of what they actually are today, as opposed to trying

00:06:23   to continue on the way it used to be of like,

00:06:26   hey, we're still the same old company,

00:06:28   run by these fun hippies, hey, everyone's cool.

00:06:31   'Cause that wasn't really accurate anymore.

00:06:34   - I don't know if I see that distinction

00:06:35   you're pointing out, I mean, I understand what you're saying

00:06:37   and I know why this format couldn't have as much

00:06:39   of the spontaneity, 'cause it's not live, right?

00:06:41   But I don't see that big of a difference,

00:06:44   other than it being tightened up and all the ad libs

00:06:47   being removed, obviously it feels less friendly

00:06:51   and personable than having it live, but there are good

00:06:55   presentations and bad ones when they're live,

00:06:57   and I think there's nothing wrong with the format,

00:07:00   I think just sometimes the chemistry doesn't combine.

00:07:04   What you really need for a good live keynote

00:07:05   is the same thing you need for any good you need.

00:07:08   People who are excited about the things

00:07:10   that are announcing, the things that are announcing

00:07:11   have to be really good, and to the degree that they're not

00:07:14   and the presenters are feigning excessive enthusiasm,

00:07:17   that can make it feel a little bit off,

00:07:18   but this time around, setting aside the weird format

00:07:22   of people filmed individually and then sliced together

00:07:24   for obvious reasons, they had a lot of good announcements.

00:07:28   But I feel like this format necessarily tamped down

00:07:31   on some of the enjoyment that we normally get,

00:07:33   like even Federighi only got in one dad joke

00:07:37   about the social distancing about the birds, right?

00:07:39   He usually has nine of those, and they work well,

00:07:42   and I think his personality comes through,

00:07:45   to the degree that any presenters are allowed

00:07:47   to have their personality come through,

00:07:50   whether it's in their attitude or their cadence

00:07:53   or the jokes that they manage to get into the presentations,

00:07:56   I don't know what the filtering mechanism is

00:07:59   for those jokes, do they decide, does someone else decide,

00:08:01   like I enjoy all of that, and I think where I agree

00:08:04   with Marco is that I think this year's,

00:08:06   I think they did a really good job with this year's format,

00:08:08   given the constraints.

00:08:10   It didn't feel weird and awkward, like we all know

00:08:14   that they had to be filmed ahead of time,

00:08:15   we all know they were all filmed separately,

00:08:17   and if that wasn't clear, they explained it

00:08:19   in the little thing at the end that explains

00:08:21   all the precautions they took during filming.

00:08:23   But each one of the segments felt like that person

00:08:25   could have been on stage, modified for the obvious fact

00:08:28   that there's not going to be any applause, pauses,

00:08:30   and they're not going to make any stumbles,

00:08:32   and all the demos are going to be perfect,

00:08:34   because if they're not, they just do them over again, right?

00:08:36   So if anything, I think this format pulls,

00:08:39   I mean, like you said, this pulls a little bit

00:08:41   of the humanity out of it, but I don't think

00:08:43   that's necessary, like I think you can just leave

00:08:46   different takes in and leave a little bit of slack

00:08:49   and let Craig make a few more dad jokes,

00:08:51   and we're back to the best they've ever been.

00:08:54   - It was actually very nice to not have

00:08:56   any third-party demos on stage,

00:08:59   'cause those always drag so much,

00:09:02   and it seems like no one in the room wants those,

00:09:05   except Apple apparently, like they would go over

00:09:09   like a lead balloon, nobody actually wants them.

00:09:11   - But they did them, they had demos of third-party apps,

00:09:14   just not done by third parties, they showed Office briefly,

00:09:17   they showed Lightroom, they showed Photoshop,

00:09:19   like that's how Apple I think always wishes those demos go,

00:09:22   but once you invite an executive from another company,

00:09:24   you kind of have to let them talk a little bit

00:09:26   about something or other, and that's death.

00:09:28   - Yeah, so like this new format that didn't have any demos,

00:09:32   I mean I don't know, assuming they continue this format

00:09:34   for a little while, 'cause the virus isn't going anywhere

00:09:36   anytime soon unfortunately, so that I'm sure

00:09:38   whatever fall or winter releases they do,

00:09:41   whatever events they do, I would say probably at least

00:09:44   until next spring, is most likely gonna follow

00:09:46   a similar format as this, and so when products get released,

00:09:50   when they usually have like game demos and stuff,

00:09:52   like hey, look at the new iPhone or iPad,

00:09:54   how fast it can run these games,

00:09:56   I hope they consider not having the third party demos,

00:10:00   'cause this works so much better without them.

00:10:02   - All right, so we got a lot to go through,

00:10:03   we should probably start, and we're gonna attempt,

00:10:05   as I say every year, we're going to attempt

00:10:07   to do it chronologically, and then we're going

00:10:08   to fail miserably, and it started pretty much

00:10:12   with iOS 14 and widgets, which I think the most interesting

00:10:16   bombshell from that whole conversation,

00:10:19   I don't think it even happened during the keynote,

00:10:21   but rather during the State of the Union,

00:10:23   where they said widgets are going to be SwiftUI only,

00:10:25   which in retrospect I'm not terribly surprised by,

00:10:29   but I certainly did not expect whatsoever,

00:10:32   and it makes sense, it seems to be,

00:10:34   because they can serialize and save off

00:10:36   the state of the widget, and then just kind of replay it

00:10:39   later and so on and so forth, but I was very surprised

00:10:42   to see that, that being said, the widgets looked pretty good

00:10:46   and you can put them on the home screen,

00:10:48   you can do, what do they call them,

00:10:49   like IntelliSmart widgets or something like that,

00:10:51   or Smart Shelf, I forget what it was called,

00:10:53   where you stack, Smart Stack, you stack a few of them

00:10:56   on top of each other, and then the OS and the device

00:10:59   will just do, show the one it thinks is most relevant

00:11:02   based on how important each individual widget thinks it is

00:11:05   at that particular moment.

00:11:06   I don't know, all this looked really, really good.

00:11:08   I don't know, there's nothing I can think of

00:11:11   that I'm like, yes, finally I can have this

00:11:13   on my home screen, but I do think that this is one

00:11:15   of the lowest hanging fruits that they could have picked,

00:11:19   not from an engineering effort perspective,

00:11:21   but from a, come on guys, you really haven't done

00:11:23   anything in Springboard in, what, 10 years?

00:11:25   Can we do something?

00:11:26   And they did something, and it looks good.

00:11:29   - Yeah, this has been a requested feature

00:11:30   for years and years, 'cause the grid of icons

00:11:32   was a great thing to start with,

00:11:33   but if you had told someone in 2007

00:11:35   that we'd still have the grid of icons in 2020,

00:11:37   you'd be like, really, nothing different?

00:11:39   It's like, well, folders, but really?

00:11:41   The folders just look like the little, you know,

00:11:43   widgets on the home screen, you know,

00:11:46   pioneered by Android, used by lots of phones

00:11:49   in various ways, basically just can I have something more

00:11:51   on my screen instead of just a grid of apps

00:11:52   or a grid of folders, and finally, you can do that.

00:11:55   Like, they kept creeping up on it, putting these widgets

00:11:57   in the little thing that's to the left, right?

00:12:00   But now that you, and the widgets are still there,

00:12:02   but now you can put them on your home screen,

00:12:03   and you can have them take up the same amount of room

00:12:05   as four apps, the same amount of room as, what, eight apps?

00:12:08   So they're either squares or they're big rectangles,

00:12:10   maybe they can be even taller.

00:12:12   Yeah, actually, you can do a grid,

00:12:13   a four by four grid of 16 apps, I think.

00:12:15   Anyway.

00:12:16   - Hexagons coming next year, so you can tessellate them.

00:12:18   - Yeah, no, that'll be just like the watch,

00:12:20   just this giant scrolling cluster of frog eggs.

00:12:25   Anyway.

00:12:25   (laughing)

00:12:28   But yeah, this is long overdue, and it will,

00:12:31   and it's the biggest change to Springboard in years, right?

00:12:36   I think even bigger than the folders.

00:12:37   This is gonna change how people's home screens look and work

00:12:40   because in those widgets, you can add functionality

00:12:43   that you don't have, would normally have to go

00:12:45   into an app to get.

00:12:48   I'm sure someone with more watchOS experience

00:12:50   like Underscore would know better,

00:12:52   but looking at the API for this, it looks a lot like

00:12:56   the UI for stuff on the watch where you give a timeline

00:13:01   of information if it's the type of thing.

00:13:03   Am I thinking of the watch or am I misremembering, Marco?

00:13:05   - Yep, yep.

00:13:06   It's basically how complications work,

00:13:08   where you provide the timeline of what kind of data

00:13:11   should be displayed at what time in the future,

00:13:14   to a certain range in the future,

00:13:15   and then it automatically displays it,

00:13:17   and so you don't have to, and often can't,

00:13:20   manually update it constantly.

00:13:23   - Yeah, and your app isn't running all the time,

00:13:24   and it's basically an energy efficient way

00:13:26   to not have all these apps running all the time,

00:13:28   but still allow them to put content there.

00:13:29   Now obviously, that doesn't work for all things.

00:13:31   Like obviously, sometimes you don't know the future

00:13:33   and can't put out timeline to that far,

00:13:35   but anyway, it's a very flexible API

00:13:37   to try to be power efficient and CPU efficient

00:13:41   to not have apps constantly churning

00:13:43   while still giving much more information and functionality

00:13:47   directly on your home screen.

00:13:49   As part of this also, further home screen changes,

00:13:53   they added the app library, which is a better,

00:13:56   more or less a better way to organize your apps

00:13:58   without organizing them.

00:13:59   So the spatial interface that we've had for ages

00:14:01   where you arrange your home screen

00:14:02   and have these little icons,

00:14:03   Craig made a good point in the presentation,

00:14:05   it's like yeah, most people arrange their first screen

00:14:07   or maybe their first screen or two,

00:14:09   but after that, it's just chaos, right?

00:14:10   Unless you're really obsessive or you have very few apps,

00:14:13   by screen five, things are just a mess.

00:14:16   Now I would say that part of the reason that's true

00:14:19   is trying, as we've mentioned on the show many times,

00:14:21   trying to organize your home screens is a nightmare.

00:14:24   It's a UI nightmare.

00:14:25   See previous episode where I described the experience

00:14:29   in excruciating detail, but it's terrible.

00:14:32   It's a hot potato, there's no place to put things down,

00:14:34   you accidentally drop things, things scooch off the edge,

00:14:36   it's terrible.

00:14:37   You used to be able to arrange your home screen

00:14:38   in the iTunes interface,

00:14:39   even that wasn't a great interface.

00:14:41   I would kill for a Mac user interface

00:14:45   that lets you rearrange your home screen icons.

00:14:48   Just like a real Mac user interface

00:14:50   that's sort of non-destructive with save

00:14:52   with an area off to the side where you can just chuck things

00:14:55   to keep them in holding patterns

00:14:56   and with like multiple selection ranges

00:14:59   and like just, it's an app for rearranging squares,

00:15:02   literally, that's all it is,

00:15:03   but a decent app for rearranging squares

00:15:07   on a large screen with a mouse and keyboard,

00:15:10   God, I would kill for that.

00:15:11   If that existed, I think people's home screens

00:15:14   would be better organized past the first screen or two.

00:15:17   Widgets will kind of help with that,

00:15:18   but all it will do is let people have even cooler

00:15:22   first one or two or three screens,

00:15:23   but by screen five, it's still gonna be chaos.

00:15:26   So Apple's solution is, you know what,

00:15:27   you can just hide those screens.

00:15:29   You can just say, I don't wanna see in screens five,

00:15:31   six, and seven or whatever of my home screens,

00:15:33   just don't even put them in the little swipey thing.

00:15:36   How will you get to those apps?

00:15:37   Oh, the app library, what has them organized by recency

00:15:40   and by category and there's an alphabeticalist thing.

00:15:42   This is above and beyond the search

00:15:43   where you have to type stuff.

00:15:44   This is like an organized into bins or whatever.

00:15:47   I feel like this is a slight abdication

00:15:49   of Apple's responsibility to make it possible

00:15:51   for human beings to actually organize their app icons.

00:15:54   They're saying, you know what, give up

00:15:56   because we're never gonna make it easy,

00:15:58   so just hide those screens and it's like spatial organization

00:16:01   for screens one, two, and three, and then browser mode

00:16:05   and automatic categorization for the rest.

00:16:07   And maybe that works fine, maybe no one would ever

00:16:09   carefully arrange five screens, but honestly,

00:16:12   I find it frustrating to rearrange my screens one and two.

00:16:14   Often I look at them, I was recently,

00:16:16   speaking of the Hey app, which we're not today,

00:16:18   I was trying to find a place to put the Hey app

00:16:20   because I have an account and I'm in the free trial period

00:16:23   and I wanted to try it out and I didn't want it

00:16:24   to be buried 20 screens ago.

00:16:26   So it's like, oh God, how do I find a place for that

00:16:28   in my screens one and two?

00:16:30   What thing do I move and what am I gonna accidentally

00:16:33   screw up when I move it?

00:16:34   That's just me rearranging the screens

00:16:35   that Craig says that people do arrange.

00:16:37   So I still think this is a problem, but all that aside,

00:16:40   I'm very glad at this, the biggest change to Springboard

00:16:45   in maybe ever, but certainly in the last several years.

00:16:48   So I endorse these changes, I just really do wish

00:16:52   there was an easier way to arrange your home screens.

00:16:54   - Yeah, I'm really curious to see what these widgets

00:16:57   look like for something like Overcast actually

00:17:00   to put Marco on the spot, because my understanding is

00:17:02   there's no way to interact with these widgets.

00:17:05   And presumably in the case of Overcast,

00:17:07   you could just use like a now playing widget

00:17:09   that's like a system level thing.

00:17:11   But let's just for the sake of discussion,

00:17:13   say that that didn't exist.

00:17:14   I don't think Marco, there's any way for you to put

00:17:16   like a play, pause, rewind, fast forward or anything

00:17:18   like that in a widget, which could be extremely useful.

00:17:20   I guess the next best thing you could do is put a list

00:17:23   of podcasts to kind of hop into and play or no,

00:17:25   but I guess that's still interactive too.

00:17:28   That kind of bums me out that there's no interactivity.

00:17:30   It totally makes sense from an engineering perspective,

00:17:32   but from a user perspective, I'd like to be able

00:17:35   to lightly interact with some things.

00:17:37   And I think I'd seen James Thompson say something

00:17:39   about how the pcalc calculator widget wouldn't be possible

00:17:43   for this exact same reason.

00:17:44   And that's, it's fine, but it's a little bit of a bummer.

00:17:46   But on the grand scheme of things,

00:17:48   I'm still really into this widget stuff.

00:17:50   I think the app catalog, whatever app library thing

00:17:52   sounds good too, because as Craig put it,

00:17:55   jiggle mode is a little bit challenging to say the least,

00:17:58   just like you were saying, Jon.

00:17:59   So all in all, the new springboard stuff looks real good.

00:18:03   - Yeah, I think it's useful, as we alluded to earlier,

00:18:06   it's useful to think of the new widgets

00:18:07   more like watch complications than like miniature

00:18:11   app interfaces, because they are, I mean,

00:18:14   and again, this could change as we learn more about them

00:18:17   and as we get time to play with them as developers

00:18:19   and maybe changes happen over the summer.

00:18:20   But it sure seems actually in many ways less functional

00:18:24   than the previous widgets have been.

00:18:26   And by the way, Overcast has a widget that no one uses it

00:18:30   because it's not very useful, but I have a widget.

00:18:33   It has a play/pause button.

00:18:34   Getting that to work was a crazy hack,

00:18:37   but it has a play/pause button and it does show

00:18:39   like the next two or three upcoming podcasts

00:18:42   and a play/pause button and that's it.

00:18:44   But almost no one uses it because it's kind of awkward

00:18:46   to use widgets in the previous versions of iOS.

00:18:50   So I think, I honestly can't think of a good reason

00:18:53   to have one in this new system for Overcast.

00:18:55   I don't think it makes sense unless I would,

00:18:57   again, like I could show the next upcoming podcast,

00:18:59   but if I can't tell which one you tapped on,

00:19:00   if you tap on it, then that's not of much use.

00:19:03   So I'm probably just not gonna have a widget

00:19:06   in the new system, but I'm looking forward

00:19:08   to what other types of apps are able to do with them.

00:19:11   I've never been a heavy widget user,

00:19:13   but I would love to do things like have a weather widget

00:19:15   showing on my home screen.

00:19:16   Like there are certain things like weather

00:19:17   that I just always want to be displayed.

00:19:19   Maybe, you know, like there were some of the examples

00:19:21   they were showing, like showing your upcoming calendar

00:19:23   events, that's stuff I would actually use.

00:19:26   And so I'm looking forward to just having a new fun thing

00:19:31   to play with, and yes, Android people, I know,

00:19:34   you did it first, Opera did it first, et cetera, I know,

00:19:37   but this is new to us, so we're gonna be super excited.

00:19:40   (laughing)

00:19:41   And this is actually not the first Android thing

00:19:44   that is now gonna be new to us,

00:19:45   that we'll get to more in a little while.

00:19:46   - Yeah, I think that because these widgets are, you know,

00:19:49   seem like they're not particularly interactive right now,

00:19:52   it doesn't mean they'll stay that way.

00:19:53   Like when they were in the sort of today view,

00:19:55   it kind of made sense that they wouldn't be

00:19:57   constantly interactive, 'cause you don't even see 'em

00:19:58   half the time, they only sort of load on demand.

00:20:00   But if it's gonna be on your home screen all the time,

00:20:02   obviously Apple doesn't want you churning away

00:20:04   and burning CPU, so they're very conservative

00:20:06   with the first implementation, but it wouldn't surprise me

00:20:08   with a few years from now that you can finally get

00:20:11   essentially a now playing screen on the home screen

00:20:14   with active play/pause, fast forward, rewind controls,

00:20:17   and you know, like a tiny miniature interface

00:20:19   to overcast in the home screen.

00:20:20   Does not seem unreasonable for me,

00:20:22   because it would only be running when the screen

00:20:24   is turned on, and when the screen is turned on

00:20:26   and they're on their home screen,

00:20:28   it's not any different than if the screen is turned on

00:20:31   and they happen to be in overcast.

00:20:32   It's the same amount of CPU usage, you know,

00:20:34   if you're like playing audio or something like that.

00:20:35   And speaking of that, to show that they're not afraid

00:20:38   of having things running on top of the home screen

00:20:40   in other places, picture in picture, which you know,

00:20:42   is from the iPad now available on the phone.

00:20:44   So if you're watching some video and you wanna go

00:20:46   someplace else, you can still see the video

00:20:48   in a little floaty window, just like you can on the iPad.

00:20:51   And if they're okay with a bunch of video showing,

00:20:53   I think it should be okay with play, pause,

00:20:56   fast-forward and rewind buttons in a widget.

00:20:58   Neither one is gonna kill your CPU exactly.

00:21:01   So it's nice to see that coming over.

00:21:03   That's sort of like something they had already implemented,

00:21:05   but you know, didn't have on the phone,

00:21:07   because like, oh, the phone is so small.

00:21:08   Would people want that?

00:21:09   Answer, yes, everybody wants that on their phone.

00:21:11   Plus phones are pretty big these days.

00:21:13   - You know, one small thing about the widgets

00:21:14   that I can't let go of apparently,

00:21:16   I think the old API is probably deprecated, right?

00:21:19   And that's also a little bit of a bummer.

00:21:21   Like on my iPad and in Notification Center on my iPhone,

00:21:26   I like using this app, Vidgets, V-I-D-G-E-T-S.

00:21:29   And what that does is it's like an iStat menus

00:21:31   for your phone or your iPad.

00:21:32   And on the iPad, I actually have it on my home screen.

00:21:34   And it's in for someone like me

00:21:36   who has no empathy for the machine, sorry, John.

00:21:38   It actually is very convenient to know

00:21:40   like if I'm actively downloading something

00:21:41   and is it actually going quickly?

00:21:44   And that's not gonna be possible anymore

00:21:46   because that refreshes itself like once a second.

00:21:49   And for all the reasons that you just cited,

00:21:51   you know, it's too computationally expensive,

00:21:52   too energy expensive.

00:21:53   That's not gonna be possible anymore.

00:21:54   And that's too bad.

00:21:55   That being said, I understand why

00:21:58   from an engineering perspective,

00:21:59   and it makes perfect sense.

00:22:01   And I do think that there are probably gonna be

00:22:04   some cool new widgets with new functionality.

00:22:06   And I'm really anxious to see or excited to see

00:22:09   how the auto ordering works on those stacks.

00:22:12   But I should stop belaboring this widget thing.

00:22:14   We should probably keep moving along.

00:22:16   What was the next thing that they talked about?

00:22:20   Translate, actually.

00:22:21   - Yeah, the compact UI for Siri and calls.

00:22:24   Also, the call one has been,

00:22:26   people wanted that since multitasking was introduced.

00:22:29   It's like when a call comes in,

00:22:31   why does it take over my whole screen?

00:22:33   Everything else that happens,

00:22:35   you can have a banner or you can have an alert.

00:22:36   You know, like the modern notification system on iOS

00:22:39   has existed for a long time.

00:22:40   And calls have just said, no, we are something special

00:22:44   because I'm not sure if you know this,

00:22:45   but what you're actually holding

00:22:46   is something we call a phone.

00:22:48   And when you get a call, since I'm a phone,

00:22:50   it's the most important thing that I do.

00:22:52   So I'm gonna black out the whole screen

00:22:54   and nobody likes that.

00:22:55   And other modern smartphones don't do that.

00:22:57   And now the iPhone won't either.

00:22:59   It actually shows as a notification.

00:23:01   Imagine that.

00:23:02   And same thing for Siri.

00:23:04   You can now activate Siri and do things with it

00:23:06   without it blanking over the whole screen.

00:23:08   That may or may not actually make Siri any better.

00:23:12   There's a separate section on Siri supposedly being better.

00:23:15   But yay for catching up with modern practices

00:23:18   in terms of notification UI.

00:23:20   - Yeah, I'm so happy to see this.

00:23:23   - Yep.

00:23:24   - As with many nerds who have been complaining

00:23:25   about this for years, phone calls today are,

00:23:29   there are some special considerations for a call.

00:23:33   Unlike many other notifications that we get,

00:23:34   it is a synchronous thing.

00:23:36   This call is happening right now.

00:23:37   You need to answer it right now.

00:23:38   You can't just wait until later and go.

00:23:40   So there is some degree of special treatment that they need.

00:23:43   And I'm sure there's probably some regulations too

00:23:45   about how calls have to behave on certain phones

00:23:47   in certain countries just from legacy or emergency reasons.

00:23:51   But for the most part, this is a computer that you're using

00:23:55   and you don't want anything to be able to do

00:23:58   a full screen takeover that you didn't tell to happen.

00:24:01   And that's what calls have done until now.

00:24:04   And this also includes FaceTime calls

00:24:06   and anything else that uses the system VoIP API.

00:24:09   A full screen takeover on your computer

00:24:13   that is caused by someone else calling you

00:24:16   that you have no control over,

00:24:19   I mean, in many ways it has been and can be used

00:24:22   as like a DDoS attempt for someone's device.

00:24:24   But it does seem kind of ridiculous to think about

00:24:29   why that would be the case these days.

00:24:30   And so it is wonderful that Apple has finally

00:24:33   recognized that and made this change to be like,

00:24:35   all right, you know what, phone calls are now demoted

00:24:37   a little bit in the UI so that they don't

00:24:40   blackout the entire screen of your phone

00:24:43   whenever some idiot calls you.

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00:26:15   Translate, Translate looked really cool.

00:26:17   I know that Google Translate is a thing.

00:26:18   I know it's very good.

00:26:19   I, as with everyone, haven't had the opportunity

00:26:22   to use any sort of translation service for a while.

00:26:25   But it looks really, really neat.

00:26:27   The one thing I wish is that when you were doing

00:26:30   the conversational mode, it seemed like it would be

00:26:32   the perfect opportunity to put your phone in landscape

00:26:35   and set it between you and the person.

00:26:37   And I feel like the opposite person's UI

00:26:41   should be flipped 180 degrees.

00:26:43   Does that make sense?

00:26:43   Right now, you would have to do the like,

00:26:46   hold it up to your face and then hold it up

00:26:48   to the other person's face so they could read

00:26:49   the translated version of what you said was

00:26:51   and then bring it back to your face

00:26:52   so you can read what they said.

00:26:53   It seems like such a good tabletop sort of mode

00:26:56   where the UI is split in half and one person

00:26:59   gets each half facing the correct way.

00:27:02   But with that quibble aside, it looks really nice.

00:27:04   And all the translation is happening on device now,

00:27:07   which is also excellent.

00:27:09   - I wonder what they're using for the translation.

00:27:11   Like, we're all used to using Google Translate

00:27:13   and doing natural language translation

00:27:15   is actually very tricky and Google has spent a long time

00:27:17   trying to make their translation better.

00:27:18   Apple has it as a feature check mark.

00:27:20   Yeah, we've got translation.

00:27:22   But how, how are they doing it?

00:27:23   Presumably, they're not using Google Translate.

00:27:25   Have they developed it in house?

00:27:26   Did they license something?

00:27:27   Is it as good as Google's engine?

00:27:28   This is always the question with all these things.

00:27:30   So I'm glad Apple has checked that box.

00:27:32   I hope they continue to improve Translate.

00:27:35   You're just, we're talking about the Translate app,

00:27:37   but translation is also built into Safari.

00:27:40   Strangely, as far as I'm aware,

00:27:42   it's not built into Messages, right?

00:27:44   Am I wrong about that?

00:27:45   - I think that's correct.

00:27:46   - Yeah, I believe it's only in the Translate app

00:27:48   and then separately in Safari.

00:27:49   - Yeah, so I mean, it seems like a natural inclusion

00:27:51   for a future version of Messages.

00:27:53   So you can have a message conversation

00:27:54   and then just tap on the thing and say,

00:27:56   "Please translate this," but we'll see.

00:27:57   But anyway, it's good that Apple is another catch up

00:28:00   in this area.

00:28:01   And surprisingly, like for the Safari thing,

00:28:04   that's one of the features I hear cited a lot.

00:28:06   It's also one of the reasons I go to Chrome.

00:28:08   Like, I'm, you know, I use Chrome for some things

00:28:09   in Safari for others, but sometimes I'll be using,

00:28:11   you know, one of the things I use Safari for,

00:28:13   I'll be doing that, and I'll land on a page

00:28:15   that I need translated, and I could just go

00:28:17   to translate.google.com and put it in the URL

00:28:19   and blah, blah, blah, but it's so much easier in Chrome

00:28:20   'cause it just prompts you, and now it's that easy

00:28:22   in Safari, too.

00:28:23   It's, you know, it's a reason a lot of people cite it

00:28:25   for using Chrome, is that, oh, Chrome will translate stuff.

00:28:27   Right, and you can say, "Well, you don't need Chrome

00:28:29   "to translate it, you can, in Safari, just go,"

00:28:31   and they don't wanna hear it.

00:28:32   They're just like, "Chrome just asked me

00:28:33   "if I wanted to translate it and I say yes."

00:28:35   So now, Safari does that, too.

00:28:37   Again, caveats about the potential quality

00:28:39   of the natural language translation, which Google has worked

00:28:41   for years and years on, and Apple just getting started,

00:28:43   but I'm glad the future exists.

00:28:46   - So, messages.

00:28:47   I am really excited about the changes coming to messages.

00:28:51   It seems like they were very polarizing,

00:28:53   and there were a couple of, like, sticks in the mud

00:28:55   that I saw fly by on Twitter that were not into it at all,

00:28:58   but I love the idea that we're gonna have threading.

00:29:01   What were some of the other features that they added?

00:29:03   Oh, pinned conversations. - Pinned conversations,

00:29:05   yeah, and putting little cute photos on your group messages.

00:29:09   I mean, both of those, the pinned and the photos,

00:29:11   are great examples of features that are clearly responses

00:29:15   to how people use messages.

00:29:17   Like, if you're a heavy messages user,

00:29:20   inevitably you have certain message groups

00:29:22   that are just permanent, one for your whole family,

00:29:25   one for a particular group of friends, one for your parents.

00:29:28   And if you're frequently using messages,

00:29:32   a busy day, your parent group could get pushed down,

00:29:34   and you wanna check in with your parents again at night,

00:29:36   and you gotta scroll and find the parent group

00:29:38   or try and type in the names again or something like that.

00:29:41   Having pinned conversations and having cute little icons

00:29:44   for your pinned conversation groups lets you just say,

00:29:46   look, I'm always going to want to talk to my immediate

00:29:49   family, my parent, my in-laws, my group of friends,

00:29:52   my, you know, soccer team, whatever.

00:29:54   Like, just pick a set of those and pin them,

00:29:57   'cause you're always gonna wanna go back to them,

00:29:58   and then there's everything else.

00:29:59   And then the threading, if you're in a big group

00:30:02   conversation and people are communicating asynchronously,

00:30:05   sometimes you want to respond to something

00:30:08   that was said a long time, it's like the point of threading.

00:30:09   Sometimes you want to say, what are you actually

00:30:11   responding to, what are you saying ha ha to,

00:30:13   what is that lol about, like, I need to know.

00:30:15   So we can, you know, so threads are a thing,

00:30:18   and they can have good implementations and bad, I think.

00:30:20   Today we have enough experience, these type of interfaces,

00:30:24   that you can strike a reasonable balance.

00:30:26   We'll see how, what this balance is,

00:30:27   'cause they're saying, yes, you can,

00:30:29   essentially threading information will be there,

00:30:31   but the messages will, of course, still appear linearly,

00:30:33   and you can sort of group them by thread,

00:30:35   so I'm not sure about the UI,

00:30:37   but it's kind of like translation.

00:30:39   Any amount of threading is better than none.

00:30:42   If people don't like it, just don't use it,

00:30:44   and it generates to the non-threading form,

00:30:45   but I think people will like it and use it,

00:30:48   again, as evidenced from using things like Slack,

00:30:49   where people were very nervous when threading appeared,

00:30:52   but now people use it in what I think

00:30:55   is a pretty natural way, like,

00:30:58   there's not a lot of threading about threads,

00:30:59   people just sort of use them and understand them

00:31:01   and appreciate them, they haven't overwhelmed Slack

00:31:04   and made it unusable, nor do they go entirely unused,

00:31:08   and I hope messages will turn out the same way.

00:31:10   - Yeah, I like seeing that Apple's really taking messages

00:31:14   as seriously as it deserves,

00:31:17   and there's also, which we'll get to in a little while,

00:31:19   there's the new Messages app on the Mac,

00:31:21   which is now built with Catalyst

00:31:23   and has apparently feature parity with iOS,

00:31:25   which is a first, and what I like about this is,

00:31:28   messages is incredibly highly used.

00:31:31   I mean, even with the stats they gave,

00:31:33   that kind of blew my mind, they said that there's a

00:31:35   40% increase in messages sent since last year,

00:31:38   and twice as many group messages,

00:31:40   so that's kind of incredible for one year of growth

00:31:42   on something that's a pretty mature platform,

00:31:45   but messages are so big, so I see, with Overcast,

00:31:49   one of the analytics that I capture is,

00:31:51   when you do a share with the activity sheet,

00:31:54   I save as an analytic, like,

00:31:56   what type of shared destination did you use?

00:31:58   So it's things like copy to clipboard,

00:32:00   send to messages, that kind of stuff,

00:32:02   and send to messages destroys everything else.

00:32:05   It is so much more, so far and above,

00:32:08   well more used than any other kind of

00:32:12   shared destination in the app.

00:32:14   And so, and like, when I designed the share panel,

00:32:17   I was thinking people would be like

00:32:18   sharing social networks and everything,

00:32:20   and they do, but it's nowhere close to messages.

00:32:24   Like, not even close.

00:32:26   I think we, as like podcasters and, you know,

00:32:30   public Twitter personalities, I think we,

00:32:33   we might underestimate how many people

00:32:36   communicate with their friends and family

00:32:38   only via messages and stuff, as opposed to doing anything

00:32:42   on the public social networks,

00:32:43   or they do so much more of it in messages

00:32:45   than on public social networks.

00:32:46   It's so big, and so for Apple to invest in it seriously,

00:32:50   and not to just let it languish and let it fall behind

00:32:53   alternatives like WhatsApp and stuff like that,

00:32:55   is really important, and so I'm glad to see

00:32:57   they're doing that here.

00:32:58   - Yeah, Apple has said in years past

00:33:00   that messages is the most used app on the entire phone.

00:33:03   Like, you remember we were saying, it's a phone,

00:33:04   so it should have the phone message taken over.

00:33:06   Really what it essentially is, is a messaging device.

00:33:09   Like, that's basically what people use their phone for.

00:33:12   They don't use it for phone calls,

00:33:13   they don't use it to browse the web or read Twitter,

00:33:16   and like, if you had to say to a first approximation,

00:33:18   what are these devices for?

00:33:19   Again, just go into public, when you can someday again,

00:33:22   and look at what people are doing on their phone.

00:33:25   Chances are good they're using messages.

00:33:26   It is the most popular app by a lot.

00:33:29   So, yeah, I always felt like their conservatism

00:33:32   with the evolution of messages is very similar

00:33:35   to the home screen, which obviously is not really an app,

00:33:38   but everyone uses, you have no choice,

00:33:40   it's there when you turn on your phone.

00:33:42   You don't wanna screw it up, and in the case of messages,

00:33:46   it's a high volume service, and history has shown

00:33:50   that making changes to it is a little bit fraught.

00:33:53   Witness messages in the cloud, which was delayed on release

00:33:56   and I think is still a little bit buggy.

00:33:58   So you really don't wanna mess it up,

00:34:00   but you do have to try and kinda key up with the Joneses.

00:34:03   So I think Apple is still lagging behind

00:34:05   and is still not able to confidently make

00:34:09   these kinds of changes.

00:34:11   Every time they make one,

00:34:11   we're all nervous that it's gonna screw up,

00:34:13   but it is important for them to keep trying.

00:34:15   So thumbs up on this change.

00:34:17   Hopefully it doesn't, hopefully it's stable and works well.

00:34:21   - Yeah, the one change that I'm most excited for

00:34:23   is threading because on some group text messages

00:34:26   or group iMessages, I should say,

00:34:28   there are definitely times that I get a little lost,

00:34:30   especially if I'm coming back to something later.

00:34:32   So I have a group thread or a group chat

00:34:37   with a couple of other car nerd friends of mine,

00:34:39   not you guys, and there's oftentimes

00:34:43   where one of us will come back,

00:34:45   not having seen the chat for a couple hours,

00:34:47   and the two remaining people will have been chatting

00:34:50   for the last two hours and there'll be 50 messages there.

00:34:53   And often I wanna reply, if it's me that's coming back to it,

00:34:55   I wanna reply to something that happened way back when,

00:34:58   and that's very hard to do without reestablishing

00:35:01   a new context and so on and so forth.

00:35:03   And so I'm really excited for threads.

00:35:06   However, I just recently was trying to send a Twitter link

00:35:11   to a group chat that was myself

00:35:16   and just a couple other people.

00:35:18   And so I went and I looked for the icon that was myself

00:35:23   and one of the people in this group chat.

00:35:26   It just so happened to be my brother-in-law.

00:35:28   So I look for an icon that has like my brother-in-law

00:35:30   and a little teeny blob,

00:35:32   and you'll have several circles for the group chats

00:35:34   and the little teeny blob of his picture.

00:35:36   And I just quickly went there, pasted and hit send.

00:35:40   And then I realized I had sent to a different chat

00:35:43   that was much wider, that had many more people

00:35:46   than just him in it, he was in the other one,

00:35:48   but I misfired on account of just looking for him

00:35:51   and then immediately firing.

00:35:53   And it was not the sort of thing that I wanted to misfire

00:35:55   to this larger group, and I'm not going to give

00:35:56   any more details than that, but I felt real dumb

00:35:59   and I really regretted it.

00:36:00   So being able to have a special image for group chats

00:36:05   that you can actually add in and specify is awesome.

00:36:08   With all that said though, the only problem here

00:36:11   is that this particular, my particular brother-in-law

00:36:15   is an Android user.

00:36:16   And so I'm assuming that since we can't even rename

00:36:19   group chats that are SMS or I guess MMS only,

00:36:22   I'm assuming none of these features will be coming

00:36:24   to the messages representation of group MMSs,

00:36:28   and so I'm still screwed either way.

00:36:30   - I'm actually really curious what you sent him.

00:36:32   Like the less you say about it,

00:36:34   the more suspicious it becomes.

00:36:36   (laughing)

00:36:37   Maybe I don't want to know.

00:36:38   - No, I'll tell you after the show.

00:36:39   - Oh God.

00:36:40   - But yeah, I'm really excited for all the messages changes.

00:36:42   I'm super duper excited to hear that there's parody

00:36:45   on Mac OS, Big Sur, spoiler alert,

00:36:47   or Bug Sur, depending on who you ask.

00:36:49   But anyways--

00:36:50   - What an amazing typo.

00:36:52   - Oh God, what a good typo.

00:36:53   But anyway, I'm really excited for that.

00:36:55   Trying to plow right along as quickly as possible.

00:36:57   Maps got some updates, including cycling directions

00:36:59   and EV routing, two things I don't care about.

00:37:01   Now Marco, I know you are super excited

00:37:03   about the EV routing changes,

00:37:04   especially while you use CarPlay in your, oh, sorry.

00:37:08   (laughing)

00:37:09   - Tesla's already got EV routing that's customized to it,

00:37:12   so he's not really missing out on that,

00:37:13   but it is a continued shame that Tesla hasn't found a way

00:37:16   to square that circle with CarPlay.

00:37:18   - Yeah, it's basically, it's adding to apparently

00:37:21   just BMWs and Fords so far, but more cars coming later,

00:37:25   the ability to build in charging stops to your routes,

00:37:29   which is what Tesla's map and its cars

00:37:31   have done since day one.

00:37:32   So it's nice, I can tell you, that's a wonderful feature.

00:37:36   It is very nice, it won't affect me at all,

00:37:37   but it is very nice, and yeah, man, it really stung,

00:37:41   we'll get to CarPlay in a second,

00:37:42   it really stung when Craig said about CarPlay,

00:37:44   it's available on basically every new car.

00:37:47   (laughing)

00:37:50   I think Tesla might be the only remaining holdout

00:37:52   of any major car brand now, like I'm pretty sure,

00:37:56   I can't think of any other car brand

00:37:58   that does not offer CarPlay at all.

00:37:59   I mean, hell, Porsche even offers it

00:38:01   for their cars made in the '60s.

00:38:02   (laughing)

00:38:04   We can't even get it on Tesla.

00:38:05   And that is becoming increasingly a problem

00:38:09   for Apple people who have Teslas.

00:38:11   Whatever is causing them to not wanna do that,

00:38:16   I wish they would work it out.

00:38:18   - Moving right along, we can talk about the Home app,

00:38:21   and it's getting adaptive lighting,

00:38:23   which is I guess sort of kind of,

00:38:25   but not really night shift, but for your physical lights

00:38:28   instead of your computer and your other devices,

00:38:32   which is pretty cool.

00:38:33   The face recognition thing, so I think I blanked

00:38:35   when that was coming across, so it won't alert

00:38:38   when it sees somebody that it knows at your front door,

00:38:41   is that correct?

00:38:42   - It will alert and tell you who it is.

00:38:45   - Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa.

00:38:46   - Yeah, this is like feature parody,

00:38:48   a lot of these home features are sort of feature parody

00:38:50   and APIs for things that are just expected

00:38:52   from home automation.

00:38:53   This is more catch-up stuff, like in any sort of

00:38:56   camera system, probably has some kind of

00:38:58   face recognition in the library,

00:38:59   and this is HomeKit support for that.

00:39:02   Activity zones specify the region of the camera's view

00:39:06   that you're actually interested in.

00:39:08   More catch-up features, but these are sort of necessary

00:39:11   stuff to be a player in this game that you have to support,

00:39:15   so good on Apple for catching up.

00:39:18   I'm really curious to see how this works,

00:39:19   because I have some Nest cameras,

00:39:22   and first of all, their zone detection is garbage,

00:39:27   and their motion detection and everything,

00:39:30   their Nest cameras seem unaware that the sun

00:39:34   moves throughout the day, and as a result,

00:39:38   shadows happen and shadows move across rooms

00:39:41   very slowly throughout the day as well,

00:39:44   and Nest's face recognition is also total garbage.

00:39:47   So I'm really curious to see how this works out

00:39:49   in practice with these products.

00:39:51   This has been the kind of thing that companies

00:39:53   have advertised for years, as John said.

00:39:56   There used to even be apps for your Mac

00:39:58   to let your Mac webcam do many of these same functionalities.

00:40:01   They've never worked that well.

00:40:03   So yeah, this is very much a wait and see for me.

00:40:06   Certainly, this is the kind of thing like,

00:40:08   you'd expect Nest being Google-owned

00:40:10   to be good at that kind of stuff, and they're super not.

00:40:13   So we will see, I hope it works out well.

00:40:16   Also, I thought it was very entertaining

00:40:18   that during this home segment, I'm pretty sure

00:40:20   Casey's garage door opener Raspberry Pi was Sherlock'd.

00:40:23   (laughing)

00:40:25   - You know, everyone has been saying that,

00:40:27   but I have had a Homebridge-powered home kit front end

00:40:32   for my Raspberry Pi garage door opener doohicker

00:40:38   since, I don't know, like a week or so after I installed

00:40:41   just the Raspberry Pi detection and the LED thing.

00:40:44   So I'm not entirely clear what this is buying me

00:40:47   other than more prominence, and I guess maybe alerting

00:40:51   if the garage door's left open.

00:40:52   Is that the only new stuff?

00:40:54   - I don't know, it breezed by really fast,

00:40:57   so it's a little hard to know yet.

00:40:59   - I think it is alerting, which coincidentally,

00:41:01   I don't think I talk about this on the show,

00:41:02   but I did set up a home kit automation

00:41:07   that when it detects that everyone has left the house,

00:41:12   it will then read the state of the garage door,

00:41:16   and it will send me a push notification saying either,

00:41:19   you know, you're good, the garage door's closed,

00:41:20   or oh my god, oh my god, oh my god, it's open.

00:41:22   And that's actually a fairly challenging thing to do,

00:41:24   because using the out of the box shortcuts functionality,

00:41:29   you can't send a push notification based on a home kit event.

00:41:33   So what I'm actually doing is calling an API

00:41:37   that I have on my server via HTTP

00:41:40   that's then basically just proxying that to PushOver,

00:41:43   which is a really cool app that has its own front end

00:41:46   to sending push notifications to your phone.

00:41:47   So when the last, between Aaron and I,

00:41:50   when the last of us leaves,

00:41:52   the home kit will check the state of the garage door,

00:41:53   make an HTTP request to my server,

00:41:55   which makes a HTTP request to PushOver.

00:41:57   I guess I could skip that hop, but my API is--

00:42:00   - This is so complicated.

00:42:01   - It's the most casey answer,

00:42:03   the solution to this problem ever.

00:42:05   But anyways, my API's so much simpler.

00:42:08   And so it'll send a push notification to my phone,

00:42:10   which is super cool, and I was very proud

00:42:11   of figuring out a way to get around the limitation

00:42:13   that you can't send yourself a push from a home kit,

00:42:17   from a home kit automation.

00:42:18   Anyway, it is super cool that they're getting

00:42:22   a little bit more support for that sort of thing.

00:42:24   Moving on, let's talk about CarPlay,

00:42:26   because it makes me so happy to hear you suffer.

00:42:29   I mean, it makes me so happy.

00:42:30   - You jumped ahead, you skipped CarKey, the App Store,

00:42:34   iPad OS, AirPods, WatchOS, and Privacy.

00:42:37   - Can I skip all, I'm just going off the show notes, man.

00:42:39   - No, you're not following in the notes document.

00:42:41   Mark, you don't know what's going on.

00:42:42   - No, I'm following keynote order.

00:42:44   - Well, okay, so the key, we're,

00:42:46   the document is taking precedence here,

00:42:49   because we're gonna skip stuff in the keynote.

00:42:52   But if you have better notes,

00:42:53   you could have put them into the document.

00:42:54   - Okay, we know, your document knows better than Apple

00:42:57   what order things should be presented in.

00:42:58   - No, I'm just saying that the document

00:43:00   is what Casey's going off of,

00:43:01   and he can't see what you're looking at.

00:43:03   - Thank you, John.

00:43:04   - If you had put what you're looking at in the document,

00:43:06   then we could all see it.

00:43:07   - It was broadcast to the world.

00:43:09   - I know.

00:43:10   - All right, we'll bicker about it later.

00:43:11   We'll bicker about it later.

00:43:12   But the next thing in the document is CarPlay.

00:43:14   - You can reorder it in the edit.

00:43:15   You have ultimate power here, Mark.

00:43:16   (laughing)

00:43:18   - Oh no.

00:43:19   The next thing in the document is CarPlay,

00:43:21   and I guess there is some new,

00:43:23   some support for some new styles of app.

00:43:25   I think they said, like, basically fast food apps

00:43:27   you can now put in CarPlay,

00:43:29   which I'm not entirely clear why, but whatever.

00:43:30   - EV charging apps.

00:43:31   - EV charging, there were a couple others.

00:43:34   Yeah, parking, EV charging, and quote, quick food ordering.

00:43:38   Whatever, however that's defined.

00:43:40   So yeah, that's cool.

00:43:41   - They also did a demonstration of car,

00:43:44   I don't know what the Apple marketing term is,

00:43:46   but basically you can unlock your car with your phone.

00:43:47   - Car key.

00:43:49   - Car key, okay, there you go.

00:43:50   - Yep, and does that use the U1 thing?

00:43:52   - No, so they said, so the first version of it

00:43:55   that's going on the 2021 BMW 5 series does not use the U1.

00:44:00   It seems to be using something much closer,

00:44:03   maybe NFC based it seems,

00:44:05   because you have to be very close to it.

00:44:07   But then they said at the end, they said that

00:44:09   in the future, future integrations will use the U1

00:44:13   so that you can keep your phone in your bag

00:44:15   or in your pocket and not place it directly against the door.

00:44:19   So it does seem like it's probably NFC based to start

00:44:22   and will be enhanced with the U1.

00:44:23   'Cause what they need is,

00:44:25   they don't wanna use something like Bluetooth

00:44:27   because Bluetooth can have things like,

00:44:30   first of all it could be too long range

00:44:32   and there could be issues with like,

00:44:34   somebody could set up like a Bluetooth repeater

00:44:36   or something, so if you're in a restaurant,

00:44:38   they could set up like a repeater outside the window

00:44:40   and unlock your car from further away

00:44:42   than you actually are and drive off.

00:44:44   Well, the ultra wide band in U1, it's immune to that.

00:44:47   Like it can't have those kind of attacks.

00:44:49   It's like the way it works, it can detect that

00:44:51   and rule those out.

00:44:52   And so they need to use, I'm guessing what they're using

00:44:55   is NFC for this first version

00:44:58   because that is like only close proximity

00:45:01   and it's easier to enforce that way.

00:45:02   Whereas once they have a better integration

00:45:04   using the U1 chip, they can detect like,

00:45:07   okay this is in your pocket,

00:45:08   so it's maybe 12 inches away from the receiver

00:45:11   but that's close enough, we'll let it unlock.

00:45:13   So, but that is, they didn't give a date for that.

00:45:16   They just kinda said like, soon.

00:45:18   - Yep.

00:45:19   Safari, some pretty big changes to Safari.

00:45:22   The thing, it made me so happy

00:45:24   and oh, the schadenfreude was so strong.

00:45:28   Just watching them discuss the privacy report feature.

00:45:32   So this is a new thing where you can,

00:45:34   on any website I guess, you can go and look at

00:45:37   what Safari thinks it's doing,

00:45:39   the website is doing in terms of tracking you.

00:45:41   And so, there was an example, like a quick demo on stage

00:45:45   and they said, or in the video or whatever,

00:45:48   and they said, okay let's see what's tracking us.

00:45:49   And right there is DoubleClick and Google Analytics

00:45:52   like featured front and center.

00:45:54   Which was so amazing.

00:45:55   But basically this will let you see

00:45:57   what is a website trying to do

00:45:58   or how many different trackers there are

00:46:00   and I guess not what they're doing with your information

00:46:02   but how many people are trying to slurp up your information.

00:46:05   And I think part of the reason,

00:46:07   this is not a very earth-shattering idea

00:46:10   but I think part of the reason why websites

00:46:12   can get away with slurping up all this data

00:46:13   is because most people, even I as a developer

00:46:17   and former web developer, I don't really have a good view

00:46:21   for how much data is being sucked up

00:46:23   every time I go to a website.

00:46:25   And so, I think making this more prominent

00:46:29   is presumably going to have,

00:46:32   and hopefully going to have a tangible impact

00:46:35   on a lot of websites.

00:46:36   Now, it may be that the only impact is

00:46:37   instead of using third-party stuff

00:46:39   that all becomes first-party and it's all proxied out

00:46:41   and it gets even grosser.

00:46:44   But in the same way that like the location services prompts

00:46:47   made it more obvious and the Bluetooth prompts

00:46:49   made it more obvious when an iOS app

00:46:52   was trying to do something that could,

00:46:54   but not necessarily is, but could be nefarious,

00:46:56   this will hopefully make it much more obvious

00:46:59   when all of these websites are doing things

00:47:01   that are almost exclusively nefarious things.

00:47:03   And so, I am really, really looking forward

00:47:05   to hopefully seeing changes across the web

00:47:07   for the better because of this.

00:47:09   - Well, keep in mind, it's not just telling you

00:47:11   what the trackers are, it's telling you

00:47:12   which trackers it blocked.

00:47:13   They have, you know, their intelligent tracking preventions

00:47:15   that are built into Safari.

00:47:16   You're supposed to look at this and A,

00:47:17   be terrified that all these trackers are there

00:47:19   and B, be thankful that Safari says,

00:47:21   "Look at all these things I blocked for you.

00:47:22   "My intelligent tracking prevention system blocked."

00:47:24   X, Y, Z, you know, like that's the pitch.

00:47:27   So it is both sales pitch and knowledge.

00:47:29   And it's good because if you were to look at this

00:47:32   and just say, "Oh, here are all the trackers."

00:47:33   Your question would be,

00:47:34   "So what am I supposed to do about that?"

00:47:36   Like, I don't like it, what am I supposed to do about it?

00:47:37   Now when you look at it, it will say,

00:47:39   "Here's what Safari already did for you."

00:47:41   And it will make you feel better.

00:47:42   It may also change your opinion of the site

00:47:43   that it had all these things that had to be blocked,

00:47:45   but mostly I think it's building an understanding

00:47:49   in the public, not so much what you're being tracked about,

00:47:52   but the fact that Safari has features that prevent that

00:47:55   and that's why you should use Safari

00:47:56   instead of Chrome or whatever, right?

00:47:58   Whereas if Safari just does that behind the scenes,

00:48:00   which it has been, maybe you don't appreciate that

00:48:03   and it's not like a selling feature of Safari.

00:48:06   Similar to this, another feature that lots of other browsers

00:48:09   have that Safari now has,

00:48:11   which is password compromise detection.

00:48:14   Safari through its key chain integration

00:48:16   will store passwords for various websites

00:48:18   and Apple will now be keeping track

00:48:21   of these big metadata jumps to say,

00:48:24   "We know that this many passwords were leaked

00:48:26   "from this website on this date,"

00:48:28   and they'll just update that database

00:48:30   and they'll be able to tell you,

00:48:31   "By the way, we saw that your email address

00:48:33   "and this password were compromised on this website,

00:48:35   "so you should probably change it."

00:48:36   If you reuse your passwords,

00:48:38   it may be a little bit overwhelming to see,

00:48:41   "Oh my God, I have to change my password on 20 websites

00:48:43   "'cause I use my dog's name as the password

00:48:46   "on all 20 of these websites."

00:48:48   That can be overwhelming

00:48:49   and I don't know if it'll make people

00:48:50   just throw up their hands,

00:48:51   but in theory, if you were using good, unique passwords

00:48:54   for each website, when one gets compromised,

00:48:56   you'll at least know that password is burned

00:48:58   and maybe you should change your password.

00:49:00   And I know from using, I guess, Firefox, maybe Edge,

00:49:03   I don't know, some third-party browsers that are not Safari,

00:49:07   on my Mac, I've gotten these notifications,

00:49:09   mostly for websites that I haven't logged into

00:49:12   since the early 2000s or even the '90s,

00:49:14   but if I get a notification,

00:49:15   I'll go over to it and change the password.

00:49:17   It was probably a garbage password

00:49:19   that I haven't used in a decade anyway,

00:49:21   but it's good to know,

00:49:22   or I'll go over there and close the account.

00:49:23   That's the other reminder.

00:49:24   It's like, "I still have an account on that website?

00:49:25   "Let me just delete that account."

00:49:26   That's another solution to the problem.

00:49:28   So I'm glad this has come to Safari

00:49:29   because it's a useful feature,

00:49:30   but I do worry about regular people being overwhelmed

00:49:33   when the one password they use on every website

00:49:35   is compromised and they're like, "What do I do now?"

00:49:38   Well, what can you do?

00:49:40   - Yeah, and it's also been a feature of 1Password as well.

00:49:43   Like they check with like, have I been pwned

00:49:45   in the various sources and do a similar warning?

00:49:48   Going back a minute,

00:49:49   just before we leave the privacy warning thing,

00:49:51   first of all, this is basically what the Ghostery plugin did

00:49:54   back forever ago.

00:49:55   It is really nice to see like the list of trackers

00:49:57   on websites that are being blocked

00:50:00   because this is kind of a pattern

00:50:02   that Apple has followed a lot to great success, I think,

00:50:05   where as Casey, you were saying a minute ago

00:50:08   that a lot of times your data's being tracked

00:50:11   or leaked or creepily captured,

00:50:13   and you have no idea

00:50:15   what is just happening behind the scenes

00:50:17   in ways that aren't visible to you.

00:50:19   And one consistent strategy Apple does

00:50:21   in these kind of contexts is shine a light on it

00:50:24   when it happens.

00:50:25   Either to just outright ban or block such behavior,

00:50:30   or in cases where that's impractical or impossible,

00:50:33   Apple likes to reveal that behavior to you

00:50:35   so that you can make decisions

00:50:37   and you can be more in control

00:50:38   and that bad actors can be discovered

00:50:41   and shamed or controlled out of the bad behavior.

00:50:45   And so in this case, web tracker's part of the reason

00:50:48   why it's been such a big business forever,

00:50:51   and continues to be and look needed to be,

00:50:52   is that pages can track all sorts of creepy crap

00:50:55   using JavaScript in the background

00:50:56   that you have no idea is even running.

00:50:58   So anything that shines a light on it

00:51:01   and calls out exactly what it's doing,

00:51:04   any sites or bad actors that care about how they look

00:51:10   and that might hear from the users about what's going on,

00:51:13   they'll be forced to consider better behavior,

00:51:16   and even the ones that don't care,

00:51:17   at least users who care themselves can be more in control,

00:51:20   can see what's going on,

00:51:21   can be more aware of what's happening,

00:51:23   and can maybe take technical countermeasures on their end,

00:51:26   like running a blocker or something like that on their end

00:51:28   to control such things.

00:51:29   So anytime Apple can shine a light on creepy behavior

00:51:33   and put control back in the user's hands,

00:51:35   that's a very good thing,

00:51:36   and it's exactly what they've done here.

00:51:38   And in fact, there's also a thing later on

00:51:39   that I don't think we'll get to separately,

00:51:41   so I'll ruin it here,

00:51:42   we're doing the same thing in iOS 14,

00:51:45   whenever the camera or microphones are being recorded from,

00:51:48   there's now a recording dot in the status bar,

00:51:51   and that's great, 'cause that's another thing that,

00:51:54   they've had the permissions dialogue for,

00:51:57   do you want this app to access the camera and microphone

00:51:59   for a couple years, but once you get permission,

00:52:02   you didn't know when it was doing that.

00:52:04   So for instance, an app like a social network

00:52:06   that records pictures or videos,

00:52:08   you would give it permission,

00:52:09   'cause obviously you need that to work.

00:52:11   But do you want it to be turning on your microphone

00:52:13   and your camera when you don't know it?

00:52:15   Probably not.

00:52:16   So a very useful thing here to control some privacy,

00:52:20   potential leaks or violations, is give people an indicator.

00:52:23   Same thing with location access,

00:52:24   it's always an indicator.

00:52:25   So yeah, anything that Apple can do to shine a light

00:52:28   on potential privacy invasions or risks

00:52:32   and give users knowledge and control,

00:52:35   that is always successful,

00:52:37   and I'm glad to see that happening in more places.

00:52:39   - Yeah, I couldn't agree more.

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00:54:52   - I feel a little bit like I'm in the matrix

00:54:58   for this next item here.

00:54:59   You guys both tell me what I'm misremembering.

00:55:02   Let's talk about App Clips for a second.

00:55:04   I could swear, I'm assuming this was not a dream,

00:55:07   this was reality, that this is a feature

00:55:10   that Apple already had and already announced.

00:55:12   What the heck am I remembering

00:55:13   that it was so similar to this?

00:55:14   - Android. - I haven't had it.

00:55:15   - And yep, Android did this exact same thing.

00:55:18   - I have this distinct memory of an Apple keynote

00:55:20   of them announcing essentially the exact same feature

00:55:23   as App Clips, but not by that name.

00:55:24   I don't know, I'm getting old.

00:55:27   Anyway, App Clips is cool.

00:55:29   If it already exists in an alternate universe,

00:55:32   an alternate version of the matrix,

00:55:34   then that's what I'm remembering and I'm sorry.

00:55:36   But it's a way for you to do a thing with an app

00:55:41   that you don't have installed without the hassle of going,

00:55:44   pulled up to the parking meter,

00:55:45   it says I have to download the whatever app.

00:55:47   Oh, I can use the QR code, always taking me to a webpage.

00:55:50   The webpage has a button, okay, download an app store.

00:55:52   Okay, I'm on the app thing, I'm downloading it.

00:55:54   Okay, I'm opening the app.

00:55:55   Okay, I'm launching it, it wants me to sign in.

00:55:57   Okay, I have to create an account.

00:55:58   All right, I've made the account.

00:55:59   Okay, now I've launched the app.

00:56:01   Now I'll scan the QR code again

00:56:03   and now I can pay for parking.

00:56:04   Oh, now I have to enter my credit card number.

00:56:06   App Clips is trying to stop that from happening.

00:56:08   If anyone has ever tried to use like just that one example,

00:56:11   a parking app, you don't know what the hell

00:56:13   parking app this place is using.

00:56:15   You don't care what parking app it's using.

00:56:16   You just wanna park your car.

00:56:18   So they're trying to streamline that process,

00:56:21   which is pick your phone up and put it close to a thing

00:56:25   or scan a thing or whatever and just immediately say,

00:56:28   we know what app this is supposed to be.

00:56:30   We're not even gonna bother downloading the whole app.

00:56:32   We're just gonna download this tiny portion of the app

00:56:33   that you need to do your parking

00:56:35   and in Apple's perfect world.

00:56:37   We'll integrate with Apple Pay

00:56:38   and we'll integrate with Sign in with Apple.

00:56:40   So you don't need to create an account

00:56:41   and you don't need to enter a credit card number

00:56:43   and it's all secure through things

00:56:44   that you trust Apple to do

00:56:45   and you didn't have to download an entire app.

00:56:47   As one of our friends said in Slack

00:56:48   when the segment came on,

00:56:50   I'm going to delete a ton of parking applications

00:56:53   because you don't need to have the parking application.

00:56:55   You don't need like one parking app for every single thing

00:56:58   and have to constantly be updating them

00:56:59   and God knows what those things are doing.

00:57:01   Just use the app clip.

00:57:02   It's 10 megabytes maximum size.

00:57:05   Apple, of course, being Apple,

00:57:06   has its own special QR code that's round

00:57:09   because QR codes are for squares

00:57:11   and it's got a little picture of a phone in the middle.

00:57:14   It looks a little bit like the maze from Westworld,

00:57:17   but it's somewhat disturbing,

00:57:18   but try not to think about that.

00:57:20   Spoilers for Westworld.

00:57:21   - I thought it looked kind of like the Touch ID thing.

00:57:23   - Yes, it does.

00:57:24   - Yeah, it's like if your fingers were perfectly round.

00:57:27   - Yeah, and you can get the full version of the app

00:57:31   if you want.

00:57:31   Unfortunately, they can prompt you

00:57:32   to get the full version of the app,

00:57:33   so I'm afraid that every single app clip,

00:57:35   all it's going to do is immediately prompt you

00:57:36   for the full version of the app,

00:57:37   but I'm sure Apple has some kind of countermeasures there.

00:57:40   Things that you do in the little app clip

00:57:42   can be carried over to the full app

00:57:44   so it doesn't just forget that you exist.

00:57:45   It knows what you did previously with it.

00:57:47   And of course, it's not just for parking.

00:57:48   It's for any kind of thing where you don't care enough

00:57:51   about the interaction to become a quote, user of the app.

00:57:54   You just want to do the thing.

00:57:56   I love this feature in principle.

00:57:59   In practice, given that we don't live in an all-Apple world,

00:58:02   I expect to still encounter lots and lots of things

00:58:05   that don't know about app clips.

00:58:08   We still encounter 30-pin connectors in hotels, right?

00:58:10   So I'm not optimistic about app clips

00:58:12   changing my life anytime soon,

00:58:14   but I want to live in that world,

00:58:15   even though it's probably going to be a long time coming.

00:58:18   - Yeah, I would love for this to be a success

00:58:21   the way it was demoed.

00:58:23   I hope that sometime in the next three years,

00:58:27   I have that kind of interaction they demoed.

00:58:29   But I think it will take about that long

00:58:30   before it will happen,

00:58:32   and I think it will also be far from universal

00:58:33   for all those reasons.

00:58:35   I had to use one of those parking apps a couple weeks ago,

00:58:38   and it was from one of the biggest vendors

00:58:42   of such parking meter things,

00:58:43   and the app is a horrendous mess, because of course it is.

00:58:46   And it claims to support Apple Pay,

00:58:48   but the Apple Pay just kept failing for no specified reasons

00:58:51   so I had to enter a credit card and everything.

00:58:52   And it was just, I had an account,

00:58:54   I had to sign in all this crap,

00:58:56   again, all to park at a parking meter

00:58:58   that used to take quarters until a few weeks ago.

00:59:00   So, (laughs)

00:59:03   I would go to the bank and get rolls of quarters

00:59:05   every few months, 'cause it was just easier

00:59:07   than dealing with all these crappy apps.

00:59:11   But yeah, so in an ideal world,

00:59:13   when everyone makes amazing apps

00:59:15   that take advantage of all the Apple's latest technologies

00:59:17   and they actually try to collect

00:59:18   as little information from you as possible,

00:59:20   and they don't want you to create an account,

00:59:21   they don't want to market to you,

00:59:22   and they actually just want things to go quickly,

00:59:24   this will be great.

00:59:25   I hope that world someday exists, today it doesn't.

00:59:28   - There were a couple of interesting things said,

00:59:30   one in the State of the Union,

00:59:30   and one, I believe, in the keynote.

00:59:32   In the keynote, they basically said, in so many words,

00:59:35   that a single entity like Yelp could make branded app clips

00:59:40   for many, many, many, many different restaurants,

00:59:43   which, didn't they go through this big,

00:59:46   what sort of movie for this, this big exodus,

00:59:50   they caused a big exodus of people and developers

00:59:53   who just spit out a zillion copies

00:59:56   of what are effectively the same app.

00:59:58   Several years ago, I thought they really cracked down on that

01:00:00   and now they're basically saying,

01:00:01   "Hey, have fun, do that again."

01:00:02   - Well, I think the way they worded it,

01:00:05   it sounded like they would let Yelp do it

01:00:07   and possibly other partners,

01:00:09   but it didn't sound like anybody

01:00:11   would be able to vend multi-business clips.

01:00:14   It sounded like it was only a thing

01:00:15   that some people would get to do, like Yelp.

01:00:17   - That's not surprising.

01:00:18   And the other thing that was said

01:00:19   during the State of the Union,

01:00:20   it was not mentioned during the keynote,

01:00:21   but I thought it was a very clever solution

01:00:23   to what could be an annoying problem,

01:00:25   is that if I understood it correctly,

01:00:28   all clips get what's called

01:00:31   ephemeral notifications permissions.

01:00:34   So when you use an app clip,

01:00:37   you are automatically giving that app clip

01:00:40   the ability to send you push notifications for eight hours.

01:00:42   And then at the end of those eight hours,

01:00:44   it's automatically revoked

01:00:45   and it can't send you push notifications anymore,

01:00:48   which I thought was really clever

01:00:49   because something like a parking app,

01:00:51   which I cannot agree with you more,

01:00:53   I don't live in a very urban area,

01:00:54   so I almost never run into this,

01:00:55   but the couple of occasions I've gone to places

01:00:58   that do use these things,

01:00:59   it is the most frustrating thing in the world

01:01:00   to have to download the app

01:01:02   and do that whole dance that you described.

01:01:04   But anyways, if you have one of these parking apps

01:01:06   and your time is about to expire,

01:01:08   you're gonna wanna get a push notification saying,

01:01:10   "Holy crap, go get your car."

01:01:11   And so having these clips

01:01:14   have this short-lived notification access,

01:01:17   I think is really smart.

01:01:17   You don't have like a Catalina/Vista style,

01:01:21   "Would you like to give this app permission

01:01:22   to notify you at some point?"

01:01:24   It's just given implicitly.

01:01:27   I do wanna know,

01:01:29   and I'm curious to hear preferably via Twitter

01:01:31   because I don't need a thousand of these same emails,

01:01:33   but for those who do use Android phones,

01:01:35   have you seen slices or whatever the Android equivalent is,

01:01:38   have you seen that be used frequently?

01:01:41   Or was that the,

01:01:43   it was announced a couple of years ago

01:01:44   and did it just flash in the pan and then go away?

01:01:46   I'm very curious if those actually took off

01:01:48   'cause that's basically our future in a nutshell.

01:01:51   - I was also thinking too,

01:01:53   I hope there's ways that other apps

01:01:56   can use these for good use.

01:01:57   Like I was thinking, 'cause one thing App Clips does,

01:02:00   not only is it useful in the real world,

01:02:02   but it also says you can launch it from Safari,

01:02:04   Messages, stuff like that.

01:02:06   And so I was curious to see if maybe this could be

01:02:10   something like if I could use it as a share link previewer.

01:02:13   So like if Overcast could have a clip

01:02:16   that could play any share link in a really nice way.

01:02:19   But I guess it's-- - Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:02:21   - I suppose I'm supposed to use Messages apps for that,

01:02:24   right, are those still a thing?

01:02:25   I guess those are still a thing.

01:02:27   But I don't know, I'm interested to see

01:02:29   beyond the obvious things of parking meters,

01:02:32   what else can you do with this feature?

01:02:34   'Cause it is pretty cool.

01:02:35   And again, the parking meter industry

01:02:38   might be very slow to adopt it,

01:02:40   so I'm curious to see what more creative people

01:02:42   can do with it.

01:02:43   - Yeah, and it's very general purpose.

01:02:45   Like if you look at how it's done,

01:02:46   you make an app clip target,

01:02:47   it's as far as I can tell essentially arbitrary code

01:02:50   within the limits of the available APIs and space,

01:02:53   again, 10 megabytes maximum size.

01:02:55   The notification thing is great, like you said, Casey,

01:02:57   because the whole point of this experience

01:02:59   is not to have to have a million steps.

01:03:02   And so even just asking if we can do notifications

01:03:04   is just one extra step that would make it more of a hassle.

01:03:07   But I do worry about giving any kind of application

01:03:10   implicit permission to give you notifications,

01:03:13   even if it's only for eight hours,

01:03:14   just because it seems like there's potential for abuse

01:03:18   in once, again, Yelp, I don't wanna pick on Yelp,

01:03:21   but a lot of people have some complaints about them.

01:03:23   Once they get in there, for that as eight hours,

01:03:25   they're spamming you with things and making money

01:03:27   by being able to spam you with notifications

01:03:29   that you couldn't stop, because I'm sure you can stop them

01:03:32   if you turn them off somewhere,

01:03:33   but people won't know how to do that.

01:03:35   Anyway, I hope it all works out.

01:03:38   It sounds like a good plan.

01:03:39   It's a feature that the iPhone should have,

01:03:41   because Android's had it forever.

01:03:43   And I hope we can live in a world where parking

01:03:47   gets closer to the role of quarter, a seize of use.

01:03:50   - Real-time follow-up from the chat room,

01:03:52   the handful of Android users that are in there

01:03:54   saying that slices is not a thing as far as they're aware.

01:03:57   Not to say that it literally isn't a thing,

01:03:59   but I mean by that is they don't see slices

01:04:01   in the real world very often.

01:04:03   Or if they do, it's used in some other context,

01:04:04   like you were alluding to, Marco,

01:04:06   that they weren't aware that it was a slice

01:04:07   in the first place.

01:04:09   Moving on, emoji search is apparently going to be a thing

01:04:12   at least on iPad, which is very exciting.

01:04:14   I didn't see any demo of this, I don't think.

01:04:16   I don't know if I just looked away in the half second

01:04:18   that they showed it, but I'm excited that it's at least

01:04:22   theoretically going to be a thing now, because it should be.

01:04:25   - Yeah, I've got that info secondhand too, Marco.

01:04:27   Do you remember it firsthand?

01:04:28   Are we in the chat room, are we making this up?

01:04:29   Emoji search is there, right?

01:04:30   - Yeah, I haven't actually seen it yet.

01:04:33   - It's on iPhone only, not an iPad.

01:04:35   - Oh! - Let me see.

01:04:36   I have it installed.

01:04:37   By the way, I guess this is me admitting,

01:04:40   I've installed beta one on everything

01:04:41   except my main computer.

01:04:43   - Your main computer?

01:04:45   What are you talking about? - Why?

01:04:47   - So, bear with me here.

01:04:49   Oh yeah, here it is, search emoji.

01:04:50   Yep, it's here.

01:04:51   All right, so. - On which device?

01:04:52   - On iPhone with iOS 14.

01:04:54   - But you put iOS 14 on your carry phone?

01:04:58   Are you, do you hate yourself?

01:05:01   Do you like being miserable?

01:05:03   - You've got a vacation brain.

01:05:04   - So here's the thing. - Oh my God.

01:05:06   - Here's the thing, yeah.

01:05:07   I'm at the beach for a while.

01:05:09   - See, I called it. - Right?

01:05:10   (laughing)

01:05:12   - It's an excuse for everything.

01:05:13   Listen, I'm at the beach.

01:05:14   - That's so true, so true. - Explain.

01:05:17   Normally, when the beta one comes out, I am traveling.

01:05:22   'Cause we're at WBC and we have this busy week

01:05:26   full of all this travel and lots of mobile use

01:05:29   and it's critical that your phone works

01:05:31   while you're traveling and everything.

01:05:32   Right now, I'm just sitting here.

01:05:34   I'm doing very little that requires

01:05:38   my phone to work perfectly.

01:05:40   And I wanted, first of all, Apple's been very aggressive

01:05:45   in recent years about the public beta time

01:05:47   and I wanted to make sure that Overcast worked

01:05:51   with the beta as soon as possible.

01:05:53   The very first thing I did when the beta booted up

01:05:55   earlier today was launch Overcast and start playing around

01:05:57   and just make sure it all works.

01:05:59   Because I know that in, they said quote July

01:06:03   is when the public betas will happen,

01:06:04   including watchOS for the first time ever.

01:06:07   So that could mean two weeks from now.

01:06:10   This could be really soon.

01:06:12   Beta two could be the first public beta.

01:06:15   So I really wanna make sure that I have time on it

01:06:19   before that happens so I can know

01:06:21   whether there's gonna be problems.

01:06:22   Because no matter what people think people should do,

01:06:26   people will put beta, the first public beta,

01:06:28   they will put that on their carry phones

01:06:29   and they will run my app and if it breaks,

01:06:32   they will complain to me and make bad reviews

01:06:34   as opposed to just saying oh it's the beta,

01:06:35   it's my fault, right?

01:06:36   So I need to know that pretty soon.

01:06:38   But yeah, it's mostly because I'm not traveling right now

01:06:40   and I'm not gonna travel for the foreseeable future

01:06:43   because everything.

01:06:44   So it made sense for me, like I wanna dive in head first,

01:06:48   I wanna get going on this, so might as well.

01:06:50   So I put the beta on all of my devices

01:06:53   that I don't necessarily need to function perfectly,

01:06:56   which is everything except my iMac.

01:06:57   So I have it on my 16 inch, iPad Pro, watch and phone.

01:07:02   - You mean like the Xcode beta is what you're talking about.

01:07:04   I was gonna confuse when you're saying you installed

01:07:06   an iOS beta on your Macs.

01:07:07   Like you just made the Xcode, the SDK and everything right?

01:07:10   - And I also, I'm trying to install Big Sur on my 16 inch.

01:07:14   It actually hasn't completed yet and I think it failed,

01:07:16   I have to try it again.

01:07:18   - Equal accent on both syllables I'm gonna say.

01:07:20   - Big Sur?

01:07:22   - Big Sur.

01:07:22   - Big Sur.

01:07:23   - Not Big Sur, not Big Sur.

01:07:25   - Big Sur?

01:07:27   Oh my God, please stop. - Big Sur.

01:07:28   (laughing)

01:07:29   When someone in the presentation said fast company,

01:07:31   I thought the same thing.

01:07:32   He said it like the British would say Top Gear.

01:07:34   He said, fast company, Top Gear.

01:07:36   No, it's fast company, equal emphasis on both syllables.

01:07:39   Top Gear, the way we say it in America.

01:07:41   Anyway.

01:07:42   - So what is the OS supposed to be?

01:07:45   - I think it's Big Sur.

01:07:47   I'm not from there but that's how I would say it.

01:07:49   - You accented the second,

01:07:49   you accented Sir more than the Big there.

01:07:51   - Big Sur, it's equal.

01:07:53   (laughing)

01:07:53   - Every time you said it, it's different.

01:07:56   - Let me give you the two ways, ready?

01:07:57   Big Sur, that's accent on the first one.

01:08:00   Big Sur, accent on the second one.

01:08:02   And Big Sur, equal accent.

01:08:04   (laughing)

01:08:04   It's not equal. - Am I drunk?

01:08:05   What is happening?

01:08:07   And how did I say it?

01:08:08   - You said Big Sur.

01:08:09   - Big Sur. - Like Top Gear.

01:08:10   (laughing)

01:08:12   - We gagged.

01:08:13   - We're not saying Big Sur on this program

01:08:16   unless someone from California tells us

01:08:17   that's how we're supposed to say it.

01:08:18   - This is how it sounds.

01:08:19   We're not gonna say Big Sur, we're gonna say Big Sur.

01:08:21   - Us mispronouncing the name of Mac OS

01:08:23   really says until someone from California

01:08:25   tells us how we're supposed to say it

01:08:26   is part of the experience of Mac OS releases.

01:08:30   - Did you know it's actually called Bondi Beach?

01:08:32   Moving on, so Scribble gets pencil dragged to select text.

01:08:35   - Wait, wait, wait, no, you skipped over Emoji Search.

01:08:37   We got off of this big tangent.

01:08:39   Emoji Search, I feel like there should be

01:08:41   a business tell-all book to explain

01:08:43   why it has taken so long to get an Emoji Search.

01:08:45   (laughing)

01:08:46   This is a major institutional failing of Apple as a company.

01:08:51   It's not a complicated feature.

01:08:53   Everybody needs it.

01:08:55   How long have we all spent scrolling horizontally

01:08:58   through that list trying to find the stupid emoji

01:09:01   with the zipper on the mouth

01:09:02   and there's a million yellow circles and you can't find it.

01:09:05   Emoji Search, why did this take so long?

01:09:09   Not everyone is like Casey who has memorized

01:09:11   the entire grid of umpteen emoji

01:09:13   and knows exactly where it is.

01:09:15   We're all scrolling forever.

01:09:17   What happened?

01:09:18   It doesn't matter now, we've got it now.

01:09:20   It's like, all right, fine, but what happened?

01:09:22   This should be a case study.

01:09:23   Someone from Harvard Business School will look into this.

01:09:25   (laughing)

01:09:27   You can totally ignore the butterfly keyboard era.

01:09:30   Skip all that if you wanna know

01:09:31   why there was no Emoji Search.

01:09:33   We just don't know what happened with Emoji Search.

01:09:35   It makes no sense.

01:09:36   (laughing)

01:09:38   It's such an easy feature.

01:09:39   - Now all kidding aside, is it not on iPad?

01:09:42   Marco, do you have your iPad nearby?

01:09:43   What is the situation on iPad?

01:09:44   - I think it's iPhone only according to the chat room,

01:09:47   which is always right.

01:09:47   - Why?

01:09:48   - I mean, that'll be part of the case study, presumably.

01:09:51   - Yeah, seriously, Harvard Business School,

01:09:53   let's get a report on that.

01:09:54   - As far as I can tell, there's a lot of stuff

01:09:56   that's in iOS 14 that is not in iPad OS,

01:10:00   and the explanation is they didn't get around

01:10:04   to doing it on iPad OS.

01:10:05   In terms of prioritizing, you can imagine

01:10:07   why they would prioritize iOS before it.

01:10:09   Historically, there have been many times

01:10:11   where a feature appears on iOS,

01:10:13   back when it was both on the iPhone and the iPad,

01:10:15   only on the phone and on the iPad.

01:10:17   Those priorities make some sense to me.

01:10:19   Again, you know, emoji search should have been on both devices

01:10:21   years ago, but I think there are similar limitations

01:10:24   in some other features that are available on iOS 14

01:10:27   that are not yet available on iPad OS.

01:10:29   So I'm sure they'll catch up eventually.

01:10:32   - I can verify it is not on iPad.

01:10:34   - Oh, okay, I was just gonna say,

01:10:35   I'm hearing conflicting reports about that,

01:10:37   but if you're saying it's not there, then it's not there.

01:10:39   - I mean, it wouldn't surprise me

01:10:40   if it popped in in a future beta, too.

01:10:41   That's the kind of thing that,

01:10:42   maybe it didn't make beta one.

01:10:44   - That's also true.

01:10:45   Now you did the, what is it, control,

01:10:47   how do I say it, John?

01:10:48   Oh God, I'm gonna get in trouble.

01:10:50   Command, control, space, is that right?

01:10:52   Not control, command, space?

01:10:53   - It's control, delete.

01:10:54   - Command, control, delete.

01:10:56   (laughing)

01:10:57   - Anyway, did you try that three finger gesture, Marco,

01:11:00   on the iPad?

01:11:01   You didn't hit the little globe, you did control.

01:11:03   - Oh no, hold on.

01:11:04   I hit the little globe.

01:11:05   Oh, face ID, microphone's blocking it, hold on.

01:11:08   (laughing)

01:11:10   All right, so I'm gonna hit, so let's see,

01:11:12   command, space, bring it, wait,

01:11:13   command, space is regular.

01:11:14   - Command, control, space,

01:11:15   to bring up the special character thingy.

01:11:17   - Command, control, space, special character thingy,

01:11:20   there is no search box here.

01:11:21   - Huh, okay.

01:11:22   - It is just a little hover over emoji blob.

01:11:25   - Okay, thank you for trying.

01:11:26   Also in the bucket of real time follow up,

01:11:28   Jason Snell, who knows a little bit about California,

01:11:30   says that it is never big sir, it's big sir.

01:11:34   - Yeah, equal emphasis.

01:11:35   - Big sir.

01:11:36   - No, equal, equal emphasis on both.

01:11:38   I would say the same way we say top gear,

01:11:40   but you don't say it that way, we all say top gear,

01:11:42   because we watch the British show and that's ruined us for it.

01:11:45   - See, I'm not sure that I can trust the Californians,

01:11:47   because they also all told us, including Jason,

01:11:49   back in the Mojave times that it was Mojave, not Mojave.

01:11:52   But then like half the year, everybody was saying Mojave,

01:11:55   including some people from California.

01:11:56   - But they were doing it wrong, it is Mojave, he was right.

01:12:00   - But it seems like Californians can't even agree

01:12:02   on their own pronunciations,

01:12:03   'cause like other Californians were saying Mojave,

01:12:05   other Californians were saying Mojave.

01:12:07   - They're not California natives, they're transplants.

01:12:10   (laughing)

01:12:12   - Oh my goodness, moving on.

01:12:14   All right, so we've got Scribble, which is what,

01:12:17   Inkwell or whatever, or what was the thing in Newton that--

01:12:19   - It's Transcriber from Windows Mobile.

01:12:21   - Oh my goodness. - From 2002.

01:12:23   - Newton did it first, speaking of Opera, yes.

01:12:25   It's yet more features of Newton finding their way

01:12:28   to the iPad, which is great.

01:12:30   Like, you know, it's taken long enough,

01:12:32   but it's definitely great.

01:12:33   Handwriting recognition came, now you can use

01:12:35   your Apple Pencil to enter text into text fields

01:12:38   without tapping the little thing on the keyboard

01:12:40   that comes up, right?

01:12:42   So that's great, and also the drawing,

01:12:44   turning your shapes into perfect shapes.

01:12:46   I remember that being demoed on the Newton in 1990 Mumble.

01:12:50   Here it is on modern iOS devices, and it looks pretty good.

01:12:55   I'll have to try it in the Notes app,

01:12:56   because the Akili heals of all these kind of,

01:12:59   do handwriting and will recognize it and turn it into text

01:13:04   and do drawings and will recognize it and turn it into shapes

01:13:07   is like, you want it to be flexible after that, right?

01:13:11   So they did some demos, like, look, I can swipe select text,

01:13:14   which is a new feature with the Pencil, and move it around,

01:13:16   because I know that it's text and stuff like that.

01:13:19   But, you know, they drew like a pentagon,

01:13:22   and they drew in a line, you know,

01:13:24   that turned into a line with arrow ends.

01:13:25   What if you want to make that line with arrow ends shorter?

01:13:27   How easy is that to do?

01:13:28   Can I grab it, is it a vector that I can shorten it?

01:13:30   Do I erase it with an eraser tool

01:13:31   and squish the two ends together?

01:13:33   Like, stuff like that tends to fall apart

01:13:35   unless there's some, there's considerable effort

01:13:37   put into making it flexible.

01:13:38   So I hope that all works out, you know,

01:13:42   as I imagined in my opinion,

01:13:43   isn't just like a sort of write once, edit never interface.

01:13:47   But yeah, I bet Pencil users love this,

01:13:50   because there's nothing worse

01:13:51   than having that software keyboard come up

01:13:52   and pecking away at it with your Pencil tip.

01:13:54   If you can just write into a text field, that'll be awesome.

01:13:57   - Yeah, this is a great feature.

01:14:00   I don't think I will personally use it,

01:14:01   'cause I'm not much of a hand writer,

01:14:03   but it's just really cool for even people like me,

01:14:05   for like the twice a year that we might want to use it.

01:14:08   And then for people who do kind of, you know,

01:14:09   hand write natively and prefer that as an input mechanism,

01:14:13   this is great for them, because you know,

01:14:15   you can just hand write everywhere,

01:14:16   and it just kind of works.

01:14:17   I too, when you were describing

01:14:19   the handwriting improvements and stuff,

01:14:22   I was also hoping for a little bit more dynamic movement

01:14:26   of what you wrote after you wrote it

01:14:27   in like the big handwriting views.

01:14:29   Maybe that's somewhere they can go in the future,

01:14:31   but it does seem, it seemed kind of like

01:14:33   their main innovation here was in recognition

01:14:36   and in the ability to select and like move it

01:14:40   as an image almost, but not to like reflow the text

01:14:44   or make the shapes dynamic and stuff like that.

01:14:47   So maybe we'll get that down the road.

01:14:49   - Yeah, I'm really excited to try this out.

01:14:51   It looks, I agree with you Marco,

01:14:52   I don't see myself using it often,

01:14:53   but I do think it's a really cool feature,

01:14:54   especially for RSI, it might be nice too

01:14:57   that you're not sitting there typing,

01:14:59   you can be writing, which is super cool.

01:15:01   I felt briefly bad for a friend of the show,

01:15:04   Steve Trouton Smith, because his new app,

01:15:06   is it Pastel, is that right?

01:15:08   - Yep. - Is that right?

01:15:09   I think that's right.

01:15:10   Pastel has been Sherlocked, although he seemed

01:15:11   actually fairly excited about it, which was good,

01:15:13   because if he's not sad, then I'm not sad,

01:15:15   because there's a new system-wide color picker on iPad

01:15:19   and maybe iPhone, I'm not sure, but it's certainly on iPad,

01:15:23   and that's basically what Pastel does,

01:15:25   is try to be a system-wide, as much as he can,

01:15:27   a system-wide color picker.

01:15:28   - It's not just a new one, this never existed before,

01:15:30   as far as I'm aware, so this is a color picker on iOS.

01:15:32   - Yeah, true, yeah, yeah.

01:15:34   - Which is convenient to have for sharing colors

01:15:36   between apps, which is exactly what his app does,

01:15:37   so he was basically Sherlocked, but that happens.

01:15:41   If you're gonna make any kind of app

01:15:42   that extends the system in any way,

01:15:43   chances are good that Apple added sooner rather than later.

01:15:46   He ran into Sooner.

01:15:48   (laughing)

01:15:49   - It's very true.

01:15:50   - 'Cause I think he just released Pastel

01:15:51   a few weeks ago, so it's like, ooh, that's tough,

01:15:53   but what can you do?

01:15:55   - And then it's in here in the next spot in the notes,

01:15:58   so we'll talk about it now.

01:15:59   I don't think it was actually brought up

01:16:00   until the State of the Union,

01:16:02   but possibly my favorite feature from this entire day,

01:16:06   and I'm saying that--

01:16:07   - That's why I put it in here,

01:16:08   'cause I think it's a big feature for developers.

01:16:10   - Yep, and I say that with only a modicum of hyperbole.

01:16:13   Local store kit testing, praise be to the gods.

01:16:18   My dreams have come true.

01:16:21   I cannot believe it is happening.

01:16:23   So what does this mean if you're not an iOS developer?

01:16:25   So when you're writing iOS apps, in all likelihood,

01:16:28   you're going to be doing some sort of subscription

01:16:30   or in-app purchase or something like that,

01:16:31   and those APIs are, I find them to be challenging

01:16:36   in a lot of ways, and testing them particularly

01:16:38   is very frustrating, and it's always been frustrating.

01:16:41   And when I started really doing this professionally,

01:16:43   in the IAP stuff professionally,

01:16:46   it had gotten a lot better to test.

01:16:48   Like, I know, Marco, you have probably war stories

01:16:51   from now until the end of time to tell about this,

01:16:54   but one way or another, what this allows you to do is,

01:16:57   and they only showed it very briefly,

01:16:59   but from what I can put together,

01:17:00   you can basically approve or deny or change the state

01:17:06   of a store kit, like an IAP purchase, when you're testing.

01:17:10   So you can pretend like you're just buying

01:17:12   this in-app purchase or perhaps a subscription,

01:17:15   and then you can act as though you're Apple and say,

01:17:17   "No, the card was declined," or, "Yes, it went through,"

01:17:20   or, "Maybe the store is down entirely,"

01:17:23   or something like that to help test all these scenarios,

01:17:25   which is extremely hard to do today.

01:17:27   I am genuinely incredibly excited for this,

01:17:30   and if I'm incredibly excited for this,

01:17:31   and I've only been doing this for a couple years,

01:17:33   I cannot fathom how excited you are, Marco.

01:17:35   - Oh my God, yeah.

01:17:36   I mean, it's funny, when you implement App Store payments,

01:17:41   if you've ever implemented anything else,

01:17:44   especially if you've ever used,

01:17:45   as I mentioned a couple episodes ago,

01:17:47   if you've ever used Stripe, Stripe is awesome,

01:17:50   for lots of reasons, in particular,

01:17:51   because when you're implementing their payments,

01:17:53   they give you a whole bunch of different test accounts,

01:17:56   test credit card numbers you can use and stuff like that,

01:17:58   so you can test all sorts of different conditions.

01:18:00   They have a whole testing environment.

01:18:01   It's very, very nice and easy to use.

01:18:04   The App Store payment system is not.

01:18:08   And the nicest thing I can say about it

01:18:11   is that it has been extremely painful

01:18:14   to develop against overtime, to test with.

01:18:18   It's incredibly clunky and very hard

01:18:20   to test certain conditions.

01:18:22   A lot of the testing stack was buggy.

01:18:24   A lot of the store kits cited on iOS,

01:18:26   you'd have to have a whole dedicated device

01:18:28   just to be signed into a developer,

01:18:30   or just to be signed into a Sandbox account,

01:18:32   because if you used your actual phone,

01:18:34   it would screw it up so often in ways

01:18:36   that you'd be getting Sandbox password pop-ups

01:18:39   for the rest of eternity until you did a full restore.

01:18:42   There were so many problems overtime

01:18:43   with testing in-app purchase.

01:18:45   Our friend Brent Simmons wrote a good article

01:18:49   a few days ago about, during the App Store brew-ha-ha,

01:18:51   basically saying originally when apps were either free

01:18:55   or paid upfront, it was super easy to collect money,

01:18:58   'cause from the app, you didn't have to do anything.

01:19:01   You could set a flag in iTunes Connect

01:19:03   to say, "All right, my app costs five bucks,"

01:19:05   and it would handle it all for you.

01:19:06   And as we move to the area of in-app purchase,

01:19:09   and the whole era of that being the primary way

01:19:12   that developers collect money,

01:19:13   as opposed to a purchase upfront,

01:19:17   we lost all that simplicity.

01:19:20   Implementing in-app purchase is way more complicated

01:19:23   and very error-prone.

01:19:25   As we moved into subscriptions in recent years,

01:19:27   that's even more complicated and even more error-prone.

01:19:30   And so the importance of testing has only gone up,

01:19:33   and so it really is nice to have something like this

01:19:36   that is, I haven't had time to play with it yet,

01:19:38   but it is most likely going to be a big improvement

01:19:40   in testability for developing purchase flow

01:19:44   and your in-app purchase handling and everything.

01:19:46   And that was just so badly needed,

01:19:48   and it will be so helpful to so many developers,

01:19:50   so I'm very glad to see this.

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01:21:24   (upbeat music)

01:21:28   - I think we have to go through the iPadOS, WatchOS,

01:21:30   and there's other things fairly quickly

01:21:32   to get to the big stuff 'cause we're going kind of long here.

01:21:34   - Well let's just blow by, yeah, right?

01:21:37   Let's just blow by all that, I'm not even kidding.

01:21:39   Let's just blow by it, let's just go to the back.

01:21:39   - I think we should imagine stuff in iPad, but we can,

01:21:42   I think we can get through them fast

01:21:43   by just hitting these quick bullet points.

01:21:44   You want me to do it?

01:21:45   I can do it fast.

01:21:46   - Yeah, you go ahead and we'll see how long the two of us

01:21:48   can wait before we interrupt you, go ahead.

01:21:51   - You're gonna get to say anything?

01:21:52   But if you want it to go fast, you can't.

01:21:54   (laughing)

01:21:56   Yeah, here we go.

01:21:57   iPadOS, we just mentioned that there are some things

01:22:01   that are on iOS 14 that are not in the new iPadOS.

01:22:04   It seems to lag behind a little bit,

01:22:05   but the headlining features that were talked about

01:22:07   are things that are unique to iPadOS.

01:22:09   They basically try to enhance the interface

01:22:12   in ways that make sense on a larger screen.

01:22:13   So they touted the new set of sidebars,

01:22:16   a lot of interfaces that used to be toolbars

01:22:17   are graduating to full-fledged sidebars

01:22:19   because why wouldn't they?

01:22:20   iPads are huge, there's plenty of room for it,

01:22:22   it's more convenient.

01:22:24   Same thing with the top bars.

01:22:27   They're not calling it a menu bar,

01:22:29   but it has drop-down menus on it, kind of,

01:22:31   but it's also kind of a toolbar.

01:22:32   Anyway.

01:22:33   - They're very menu-like toolbars.

01:22:34   - Yeah, features that previously,

01:22:37   I think we had talked about in some shows,

01:22:38   like, oh, I didn't even know in the Files app

01:22:39   you could change the list to you

01:22:40   because you had to swipe down from the top

01:22:42   to get some kind of thing to get it.

01:22:43   Now it's much more obvious there's actual visual element

01:22:45   on the screen that you can poke with your finger

01:22:47   and guess what, a drop-down menu comes down from it

01:22:49   and you can pick it.

01:22:50   These are all worthwhile enhancements

01:22:54   to make the interface more,

01:22:56   I was gonna say more Mac-like,

01:22:57   but more flexible, more feature-rich.

01:22:59   They also improved their version of Spotlight

01:23:01   with the search thing that has better search results in it.

01:23:04   It gets all the other features that we talked about from iOS

01:23:06   with the compact notifications and stuff,

01:23:09   the Scribble we already talked about,

01:23:10   which is their feature where you can write words

01:23:12   into text boxes and things like that.

01:23:14   Yeah, there's probably more iPadOS,

01:23:18   but for the sake of time,

01:23:19   because we gotta get to the Big Mac stuff quickly,

01:23:22   we'll move on from there.

01:23:23   WatchOS 7, I feel like they'll probably be really good

01:23:28   under the radar episode about this,

01:23:29   which I would recommend listening to,

01:23:30   so underscore can tell us all about it,

01:23:32   but the short version is SwiftUI complications.

01:23:34   Complications used to be very limited in what you could do.

01:23:37   SwiftUI gives you a lot more flexibility

01:23:39   and you can have more than one complication of each type,

01:23:42   which if you're a complication fiend,

01:23:43   like underscore is great news for him.

01:23:46   Face sharing, which we had rumored for a while back,

01:23:48   is if you make a really cool watch face

01:23:51   with just the right set of complications,

01:23:52   color coded and matched and customized

01:23:54   to look awesome on a particular face,

01:23:56   you can share that with somebody

01:23:57   and if you share it with them

01:23:58   and they don't have those apps installed,

01:23:59   it'll prompt them to install it.

01:24:01   I said during the keynote that the modular face,

01:24:04   which is like that digital time

01:24:06   and then these two big places for complications,

01:24:08   the modular face with custom third-party

01:24:12   SwiftUI-driven complications is as close as we've gotten

01:24:15   so far to third-party watch faces

01:24:17   because third-party developers can control

01:24:19   in a much more flexible way

01:24:21   a larger portion of that screen.

01:24:22   The time is still just the time

01:24:24   and you don't have much control over that,

01:24:25   but modular has big complications

01:24:27   and if you can really use the full power of SwiftUI

01:24:30   to fill that space, that'll be something.

01:24:32   It's not Marco's custom watch face

01:24:35   that's like a big circle with weird tick marks

01:24:38   around it and everything,

01:24:38   but it's progress in that direction.

01:24:41   Anything else I'm missing from WatchOS?

01:24:43   - It's making the existing restrictions a little bit nicer,

01:24:47   but it does not fundamentally change

01:24:50   almost any of the existing restrictions

01:24:52   with that one big exception to certain apps

01:24:55   of, as you said, that an app can now vend

01:24:57   multiple complications.

01:24:59   So before--

01:25:00   - Of the same type, of the same size class.

01:25:02   - Yeah, 'cause there's so many faces that have,

01:25:05   as you said, they have that new round complication,

01:25:08   that medium-sized circle,

01:25:09   that the info graph face has four of them or whatever

01:25:12   and so on, and before, an app could only say,

01:25:15   all right, my complication for this size is this

01:25:19   and that's all you would get.

01:25:21   And so it made it hard for apps like Underscore's WatchSmith

01:25:26   or apps that have really rich complication support

01:25:28   like Carrot Weather, where you would maybe want to have,

01:25:32   like suppose you use Carrot Weather,

01:25:33   you'd wanna use, like okay, let me put the temperature

01:25:35   in this circle and let me put the UV index in this circle.

01:25:39   And you couldn't do that before

01:25:40   because Carrot Weather could only say,

01:25:42   all right, my complication for medium circle type is this.

01:25:45   And now that is lifted,

01:25:47   so apps that wanna make rich complicated experiences

01:25:51   like WatchSmith or Carrot Weather or things like that,

01:25:54   they can now do a lot more than they could do before.

01:25:56   So that's really great for them.

01:25:58   Beyond, and using SwiftUI for complications

01:26:00   is also very nice.

01:26:01   It's probably using the exact same feature

01:26:04   as the widget support that we talked about earlier

01:26:05   where it's this kind of pre-rendered SwiftUI archive view

01:26:10   that it's minimal interaction

01:26:11   which is how complications have always been

01:26:13   and you have to give it this weird timeline

01:26:15   of values to display 'cause you're not constantly running.

01:26:19   Most of those restrictions were already there

01:26:21   and are still there.

01:26:22   So a lot of that on WatchOS is not gonna be a big deal.

01:26:26   Where WatchOS had a lot more substantial advancement

01:26:30   is in customer facing features.

01:26:32   So that includes things like the new workout types,

01:26:35   the pretty major feature of sleep tracking,

01:26:37   the kinda cool feature,

01:26:38   my stream cut out during the first part of it

01:26:40   so I missed some of it,

01:26:41   but the hand washing detection and guidance

01:26:42   seemed pretty cool, especially given the world today,

01:26:45   I thought that was a pretty cool feature.

01:26:47   I do have some questions about the workout support.

01:26:49   So one of the workouts I do a lot is with a trainer

01:26:53   and so Apple has this, you can say there's fitness,

01:26:58   breaking down into the warmup and cool down stretching,

01:27:04   core exercises, stuff like that.

01:27:06   Well, what if you do a workout that has multiple things?

01:27:09   What if you do a workout that begins with a warmup stretch

01:27:11   and then you do some core exercises

01:27:13   and then you do some jogging or something

01:27:15   and then you cool down with some stretches?

01:27:18   Do you have to do four workouts

01:27:19   to make that be counted properly?

01:27:21   - Yeah, so when I do some of the exercising

01:27:24   that I do at home, a lot of times some of the stuff,

01:27:28   like I do it against like an exercise video

01:27:29   and a lot of times one of the workout types

01:27:32   is where you do half weightlifting and half HIIT,

01:27:36   high intensity interval training, I think is what it's called.

01:27:39   Anyways, that's what I'll do is I will do one exercise

01:27:43   and the watch that's the weightlifting exercise

01:27:45   and then I'll stop that one

01:27:47   and then I'll do another second exercise

01:27:50   that is the HIIT exercise and it's very annoying.

01:27:53   I mean, in the grand scheme of things,

01:27:55   it's not that big a deal,

01:27:56   but every time I have to handle it that way,

01:27:57   I'm just like, "Ugh, man, why can't I just figure it out?

01:28:01   "Wouldn't that be nice?

01:28:02   "You can figure out dancing apparently.

01:28:03   "You can figure out whether you're dancing

01:28:04   "with just your arms or your whole body or whatever.

01:28:06   "Figure this out too, man, please?"

01:28:08   - Yeah, the sleep tracking is another thing.

01:28:11   Did sleep tracking already exist or has it been rumored

01:28:13   so long that there's another thing

01:28:14   that I just remember as existing but didn't?

01:28:15   - Yeah, it has been supported by third parties

01:28:17   for a number of years now,

01:28:19   but it was never supported by Apple.

01:28:22   - Yeah, so they've got that

01:28:24   and I think the current hardware basically supports it.

01:28:26   If you were, you said, "Wherever I watch a sleep,

01:28:29   "when does it ever charge?"

01:28:30   You charge it when you're taking a shower in the morning

01:28:32   and surprisingly, that is a viable pattern.

01:28:35   There's go-to-bed reminders.

01:28:37   Parents may think this is gonna help

01:28:39   their children go to bed.

01:28:40   I really doubt it will,

01:28:41   but for adults who want to brain hack themselves,

01:28:44   the phone can try to wind things down for you

01:28:46   and get you to go to sleep at a reasonable time

01:28:48   and hopefully the sleep tracking will let you know

01:28:49   whether you're getting garbage sleep or not.

01:28:51   Rewinding for a second for the face sharing thing,

01:28:54   one thing we missed was that Apple is going to curate

01:28:57   a collection of faces.

01:28:59   I think this is, it's not third-party watch faces,

01:29:03   but it's important because people get paralyzed by choice.

01:29:06   You can have a lot of different watch faces

01:29:07   as your starting point

01:29:08   and there's lots of different options for complications

01:29:10   and you may not really want to sit there

01:29:13   and mess with those things

01:29:14   or know what complications are available.

01:29:16   And so by having this basically app store for faces,

01:29:20   all it is is a set of configurations

01:29:21   and a bunch of humans will make these at Apple

01:29:25   that look good or tailored to particular activities

01:29:28   like running or sleep tracking or weather nuts or whatever.

01:29:32   I don't know what they're gonna have, but anyway,

01:29:34   it's great because if you go there

01:29:36   and you see a thing that you like with Apple's integration,

01:29:38   you can say, "I just want that watch face,"

01:29:40   and you'll get it on your thing.

01:29:41   And again, if you don't have the apps that it needs,

01:29:43   it will prompt you to install them.

01:29:44   And so even though this feature seems a little bit silly,

01:29:48   I think it will actually benefit

01:29:49   a lot of people's use of the watch

01:29:52   because people tend to, it's the tyranny of the default.

01:29:55   They just pick whatever default watch face

01:29:57   they find appealing and maybe customize one or two things.

01:29:59   And I feel like that is probably a suboptimal experience

01:30:02   for most people when they could be having,

01:30:04   A, they could have more different watch faces.

01:30:06   I'm not sure how many people know

01:30:07   that you can switch the watch faces on the fly

01:30:09   based on your activity.

01:30:10   And B, have sort of expertly built watch faces

01:30:13   by someone who knows how to make

01:30:14   an attractive, informative watch face.

01:30:16   And you can, of course, customize from there.

01:30:18   It's not like they're fixed, but I think it's pretty neat.

01:30:20   - Yeah, it's nice.

01:30:21   I mean, this is obviously not custom watch faces,

01:30:24   which is what many of us still want

01:30:26   and I certainly still want.

01:30:28   This is an okay compromise for now

01:30:33   to give people a little bit more variety

01:30:34   and to make the current faces

01:30:36   seem to last a little bit longer.

01:30:38   Ultimately, though, we still want more.

01:30:40   This does not remove the need for custom watch faces.

01:30:44   It simply extends the time beyond

01:30:46   which we might start complaining again.

01:30:48   - I'm gonna skip the App Store privacy stuff

01:30:51   for next week if you guys don't mind

01:30:53   'cause I think it's not time pressing,

01:30:54   but we will talk about it next week.

01:30:57   A brief section on AirPods,

01:30:59   just because there are a few things

01:31:00   that are relevant to the stuff we've discussed

01:31:01   on the show before.

01:31:03   One is their 3D audio support.

01:31:05   I forget how they branded it,

01:31:07   but basically we talked-- - Spatial audio.

01:31:09   - Yeah, we talked about this in the context

01:31:10   of binaural audio and the PlayStation 5.

01:31:12   This is similar.

01:31:13   You have two things in your ears

01:31:16   and software magic makes it sound like

01:31:18   the sound is coming from different directions.

01:31:19   Apple's version of this seems constant-reheading on

01:31:23   and limited to what you'd imagine

01:31:25   the television and movie sound standards

01:31:27   like Atmos and DTS and surround sound.

01:31:30   It's not like the PlayStation thing

01:31:31   where you want 5,000 sound sources

01:31:33   'cause there's no real context.

01:31:34   It's not gaming focus is what I'm saying.

01:31:36   It's for, hey, I'm watching a movie or TV show.

01:31:38   I have my AirPods in.

01:31:40   Can I give myself some rough simulation

01:31:43   of what it might be like to be in surround sound?

01:31:45   And that's what Apple's trying to do.

01:31:47   They didn't mention anything

01:31:48   about head-related transfer functions,

01:31:50   so I'm just presumably they're using something generic.

01:31:52   Because the AirPod Pros have accelerometers

01:31:55   and gyroscopes and stuff in them,

01:31:57   they can tell when you turn your head

01:31:59   so they can keep the audio sounding normal.

01:32:01   If you say you're in a movie theater,

01:32:03   if we were in normal time,

01:32:04   or in your house with surround sound,

01:32:06   and you've got your speakers all going off

01:32:07   because some movie has sound surrounding you,

01:32:09   if you turn your head, the sound doesn't move.

01:32:12   The speakers are in the same place in the theater, right?

01:32:14   That's what surround sound is supposed to be like.

01:32:16   If you hear a noise to your left and you turn to your left

01:32:18   and the noise comes again,

01:32:20   now you're facing it more and it sounds different.

01:32:22   But if you have headphones in,

01:32:23   if they didn't know when you turned your head,

01:32:25   it would kill the illusion because you turn your head

01:32:27   and now all of a sudden the sound turned with your head

01:32:29   and that's not what's supposed to happen.

01:32:31   So that's very clever and if it works well,

01:32:33   this'll be super cool.

01:32:34   I can't wait to try this except I, A,

01:32:37   don't have AirPods Pro and, B, I don't like them

01:32:40   because they go inside my little ear holes.

01:32:42   So I really hope someday Apple makes a non-invasive,

01:32:47   let's say, AirPod with these gyroscope features

01:32:53   'cause I think this sounds neat.

01:32:53   And then finally, automatic switching.

01:32:56   This sounds like a dream as someone who uses AirPods

01:32:59   with multiple devices all the time

01:33:01   and is constantly going to Control Center

01:33:03   to switch from one device to the other.

01:33:06   Even though the switch is faster with the new version

01:33:08   of the AirPods that I have

01:33:09   and Control Center is not that far away,

01:33:12   I would just like it to magically know what I mean.

01:33:14   But I don't know how it's gonna know.

01:33:15   Like automatic switching, they describe it as,

01:33:17   "Yeah, it's easy, it'll just switch from device to device."

01:33:20   But how will it know?

01:33:21   Like in practice, my phone and my iPad

01:33:23   are both on my nightstand.

01:33:24   How is it gonna know?

01:33:25   I guess it's whichever device I'm using.

01:33:27   I have medium hopes for this feature.

01:33:29   I really want it to work by figuring out

01:33:32   which device I'm using and automatically connecting to it.

01:33:34   But connecting is still not lightning fast.

01:33:37   And if this thing starts getting it wrong,

01:33:38   I'm gonna be angry.

01:33:40   But the surprising amount of AirPod news

01:33:42   for a non-hardware-focused keynote.

01:33:45   - A couple of quick notes on that.

01:33:46   First of all, I thought it was absolutely incredible

01:33:49   that one of the things they said is that

01:33:51   by some magic, they will detect when you,

01:33:54   like let's say you're sitting in a chair

01:33:55   and you're holding your iPad in front of you.

01:33:56   If you twist slightly so that the iPad is to your left,

01:33:59   by some magic, if I understood them right,

01:34:02   they will detect that and change the profile of the sound

01:34:05   coming into your AirPod Pros to reflect the fact

01:34:08   that the screen is now a little bit left of center,

01:34:10   which I thought was phenomenal.

01:34:12   - They even said if you're on a bus,

01:34:14   they'll figure out, oh, the bus is turning,

01:34:17   but don't shift the sound because you're in the bus

01:34:20   and you're stationary, like they're using GPS

01:34:22   and other things to try, I mean, this is a use case.

01:34:23   - I don't think, no, I think it was all accelerometer-based.

01:34:26   The idea there was like, it's not GPS or anything,

01:34:29   it's saying like, you know, they had to distinguish

01:34:30   between you're in a moving vehicle,

01:34:33   which generates a certain type of accelerometer input,

01:34:36   or you are actually physically moving the device.

01:34:38   It's like basically velocity versus acceleration,

01:34:40   it's a whole thing.

01:34:41   - But the phone has a GPS in it.

01:34:43   They're not using the phone's GPS at all to figure that out?

01:34:46   'Cause I imagine they could, you know what I mean?

01:34:47   Like you're not, like the AirPods don't exist in isolation.

01:34:49   You're watching something on a phone or an iPad,

01:34:51   but you might have GPS, anyway.

01:34:52   - No, I'm pretty sure it's a combination of the gyroscope

01:34:54   and the accelerometer, it lets them do that without GPS.

01:34:57   - Yeah, maybe, but anyway, it's a use case

01:34:59   that the PlayStation does not have to deal with,

01:35:01   because if you're using a PlayStation on a bus,

01:35:04   you are a rarity, like it is not the Nintendo Switch, right?

01:35:07   So, interesting problem and interesting solution,

01:35:11   and I really hope they pulled it off,

01:35:13   because it'll be super cool if they did.

01:35:15   - Another quick note, I genuinely thought

01:35:17   that the automatic switching was there

01:35:20   since the original AirPods.

01:35:21   I am clearly wrong, I'm not trying to say that I'm right,

01:35:24   but I really thought, somehow it got in my brain

01:35:27   that that was automatic, and I feel much better now

01:35:29   knowing that it never used to be automatic,

01:35:31   because it never worked for crap,

01:35:33   and so now I understand why.

01:35:34   I made up the fact, John style, apparently,

01:35:37   I made up that feature, and it never ever existed

01:35:39   until just today.

01:35:40   - Well, it actually, for me, it has been slightly automatic

01:35:43   sometimes between the phone and the watch.

01:35:46   That's the only pairing that was kind of automatic,

01:35:48   and the reason why might be a hint

01:35:50   as to how they're doing this, that basically,

01:35:53   when you, like, you gotta figure,

01:35:55   like how are they gonna distinguish

01:35:56   between which app it's using?

01:35:58   Suppose if you are, like, holding your iPhone

01:36:00   and tapping out a message while you're on your Mac,

01:36:03   you know, while you're sitting at your Mac,

01:36:04   and you don't want what you're playing on your Mac

01:36:06   to all of a sudden pause and switch to your iPhone,

01:36:08   there are ways they can do this

01:36:09   with the way audio sessions work.

01:36:11   So the way that whenever you, as an app,

01:36:14   start playing audio back, for whatever reason,

01:36:16   somebody hits play or whatever, you start playing audio.

01:36:19   To do that, you first make a call to AV audio session

01:36:22   to activate your session, and then that, you know,

01:36:25   configures the hardware and everything,

01:36:26   and then, and that's also the same place

01:36:28   you tell the system whether, like,

01:36:30   are you spoken word content,

01:36:31   should you play in the background or not, et cetera,

01:36:34   and then you start playing audio.

01:36:36   So one thing they could do is merely use, like,

01:36:39   whoever last started the most recent audio session,

01:36:42   whatever device started that,

01:36:44   that's the current active device.

01:36:45   So that is almost certainly how it's always worked

01:36:49   between the phone and the watch,

01:36:50   and so this could just be them extending that same logic

01:36:53   to Macs and phones and iPads and everything,

01:36:55   and like, you know, to all that automatic switching as well.

01:36:57   So whatever, my guess, I haven't tried this yet,

01:37:00   but whatever device that you play audio from most recently,

01:37:05   that will be the device that switches to.

01:37:07   - All right, let's talk about Big Sur.

01:37:09   - Big Sur.

01:37:10   (laughing)

01:37:11   Oh, you guys need practice.

01:37:12   - Did I just do it?

01:37:14   - You need to make it.

01:37:15   Big Sur.

01:37:16   It's not Big Sur, it's Big Sur.

01:37:18   - Sur big?

01:37:18   (laughing)

01:37:19   You guys are very bad at this.

01:37:21   Okay, well, just, we can call it Mac OSB.

01:37:25   - Yes.

01:37:26   - There we go.

01:37:27   (laughing)

01:37:27   - We can all agree on that.

01:37:28   - Well, no, I don't think we can agree on that.

01:37:30   All right, so let's start with,

01:37:32   before we get into the hardware side of this,

01:37:35   is just do the software.

01:37:36   Mac OS Big Sur looks, has a new look,

01:37:40   which happens every couple years in Mac OS

01:37:45   if you're new to the modern Mac operating system.

01:37:48   They change the look to varying degrees,

01:37:50   usually on a multi-year interval.

01:37:52   This is the biggest change in the look of Mac OS,

01:37:57   probably since they went unlikable

01:37:59   and got rid of the pinstripes.

01:38:00   I feel like that is the only other comparable change,

01:38:02   maybe the biggest change that they've ever made

01:38:05   to the look of the modern Mac OS.

01:38:09   And I tweeted when this was going on,

01:38:12   this is kind of the Mac's iOS 7 moment.

01:38:16   For people who don't remember,

01:38:17   iOS 7 was when the previously very sort of

01:38:20   3D shiny photo real UI of iOS

01:38:24   switched to a very flat minimalist interface

01:38:27   when Johnny Ive took over the software team.

01:38:30   And it was very extreme and very different

01:38:32   from what came before it,

01:38:33   and very upsetting to some people.

01:38:35   And then in the years that followed,

01:38:37   iOS 7's look was pulled back from those extremes

01:38:39   and made more moderate.

01:38:40   Hopefully Apple has learned from that.

01:38:42   But if you look at screenshots of Big Sur,

01:38:44   it looks different.

01:38:48   You're not gonna confuse it for a Catalina Mac, I think.

01:38:53   And it leans on not just more minimalism,

01:38:57   but even more transparency,

01:38:59   even more compressing of elements.

01:39:01   I don't know how, before I try to characterize it,

01:39:05   because then we're gonna just go look at the screenshots,

01:39:06   Margot seemed the most upset about it,

01:39:08   so I wanna give him time to tell us

01:39:10   why he hates the new look.

01:39:11   - I'm not sure whether I'm going to hate it yet,

01:39:15   but it is, I have to live with it.

01:39:17   That's another reason why I put it on my laptop,

01:39:19   or I'm trying to put it on my laptop if it ever completes,

01:39:21   because I do want to spend time with it

01:39:24   before I say for sure that I hate it.

01:39:26   But certainly on first look, I'm really hesitant.

01:39:29   I'm skeptical about it, because frankly,

01:39:33   I don't like Alan Dye's style as a UI designer.

01:39:36   Alan Dye was also the designer of iOS 7.

01:39:38   He's been the UI designer since Johnny Iov

01:39:40   was put in charge of everything.

01:39:41   And Johnny Iov left, Alan Dye didn't.

01:39:43   He is still the designer there,

01:39:46   and he has a habit of designing things like Johnny

01:39:49   to look really good,

01:39:52   but often at the expense of functionality.

01:39:54   And so for a UI, that can be things like contrast,

01:39:57   legibility, discoverability,

01:40:01   having control look like controls, things like that.

01:40:03   And a lot of times, I think his style of design,

01:40:06   or at least I don't know if he's personally doing all this,

01:40:08   but the era of design under him,

01:40:10   it really fails in those ways.

01:40:13   It hides things.

01:40:15   One of the things I hate is that in the Catalina version

01:40:19   of the music app, and this continues into the BS version.

01:40:22   In the Catalina version,

01:40:24   it used to be that when you're playing a song,

01:40:29   it would show you the time elapsed

01:40:31   on one side of the now playing bar,

01:40:33   and it would show you the time remaining

01:40:34   on the other side of the now playing bar.

01:40:36   And granted, I listen to songs from bands

01:40:40   where the duration of the song can vary a lot,

01:40:42   maybe you could say.

01:40:44   And so I am often looking at the time in a song,

01:40:48   and maybe they assume that everyone listens to pop music,

01:40:51   where every song is three minutes long,

01:40:52   and you say, "You don't need this anymore,"

01:40:53   but that's not true for everyone.

01:40:55   And in the Catalina version of the music app,

01:40:59   those time durations fade out

01:41:02   when you're not hovering over it.

01:41:03   So most of the time you look at it,

01:41:05   and it's just this big empty square showing title,

01:41:07   but no time, and you hover over it, and the time appears,

01:41:10   and the time is really tiny.

01:41:12   These really little tiny times in the corner,

01:41:15   in the middle of this giant expanse of a window.

01:41:18   And so it's hiding functionality,

01:41:20   and he even said this in the video today,

01:41:23   about something about how the controls fade away

01:41:26   so that you can focus on your content,

01:41:28   and that's one of his critical design principles.

01:41:30   And I hate this principle because it's so overused.

01:41:33   It is junk drawer theory of design.

01:41:35   It is just hide things, and that is always better.

01:41:38   But no, hiding things isn't always better.

01:41:40   And in this case, in the case of my music app nitpick here

01:41:44   with the time elapsed and time remaining labels,

01:41:47   like you're on a Mac, you have space.

01:41:49   It was always there before,

01:41:51   ever since the dawn of MP3 players,

01:41:53   and no one had a problem with that.

01:41:55   It's not like, what are you gaining

01:41:56   by hiding the time playing in a music app

01:42:00   on a now playing screen that has tons of space?

01:42:02   You're not gaining anything,

01:42:03   you're just hiding it for the sake of minimalism,

01:42:04   for its own sake, and assuming that's better.

01:42:07   And now people who actually use that information

01:42:10   or want to see that information, it's now harder to get.

01:42:13   Now you have to hover over it to see it,

01:42:15   and then it just vanishes for no reason.

01:42:17   And I'm afraid of that aesthetic

01:42:19   expanding to the degree that it has expanded in Big Sur.

01:42:24   It really does seem like that is now so dominant,

01:42:28   so entrenched in their design philosophy and their actions,

01:42:32   that, and Mac OS has been doing this slowly over time,

01:42:35   things like scroll bars disappearing and stuff like that.

01:42:37   Like, we've been heading on this path for a little while,

01:42:40   but I worry that we've now gone really far

01:42:43   in that direction, where now so much is hidden

01:42:46   behind hover states and just hidden

01:42:49   for the sake of being hidden.

01:42:50   And it's now going to be, I think, even harder to tell.

01:42:54   Like, what is a control?

01:42:56   What is active?

01:42:57   Like, when I saw, they showed a few screenshots and stuff

01:43:02   of apps like Mail, where you have a big tool bar

01:43:04   across the top with a whole bunch of buttons.

01:43:06   And when I saw those, it just looked like a visual mess

01:43:10   to me, like not having any more structure to the icon bars,

01:43:15   having a lot of the color removed from them,

01:43:16   so it's just like, here's a list of monochrome icons.

01:43:19   It made it harder for me to see, and it looked,

01:43:22   it was hard to even tell, like, what is a button?

01:43:24   What is clickable?

01:43:25   Wickshooter's icons are showing me status

01:43:27   versus Wickshooter actually behaving as buttons.

01:43:30   I worry that we've taken a really big step backwards here.

01:43:33   But all that said, I do wanna actually use it

01:43:37   before I really judge it further.

01:43:38   But right now, I don't feel good about it

01:43:41   upon first glance.

01:43:44   - You can see where, what the appeal is

01:43:47   to a certain kind of designer to this type of interface.

01:43:50   So using SF symbols, the font,

01:43:53   with a bunch of vector drawings for a bunch of stuff,

01:43:55   having configurable accent colors to each app,

01:43:59   if you choose to be in multicolor mode,

01:44:01   can have its own highlights.

01:44:02   Like, if you're on the Mac now,

01:44:04   you can choose what your accent color is

01:44:05   for your operating system.

01:44:07   It defaults to, like, bluish.

01:44:09   You can also say multicolor in Big Sur,

01:44:11   and that will let individual apps

01:44:13   have a different accent color.

01:44:14   So notes could be yellow, and mail could be blue,

01:44:16   and so on, if you want that.

01:44:18   But the whole idea is, you design the app,

01:44:22   and you specify, this is a sidebar, this is the icon,

01:44:25   this is the text, this is a toolbar, here are the icons,

01:44:28   and that a system like this allows all those things

01:44:31   to be flexible.

01:44:32   Accent color is flexible 'cause they're all template images.

01:44:34   They're scalable 'cause they're vector

01:44:36   'cause they all come from a font.

01:44:37   You are sort of just telling me the what,

01:44:39   and the OS is determining the how,

01:44:41   and that gives you, as a designer,

01:44:43   a lot of flexibility to change the way things look

01:44:46   and to have the UI be more flexible

01:44:48   than, for example, the hand-drawn, pixel-perfect,

01:44:50   you know, old days of the old iOS,

01:44:52   where it was very inflexible and almost like an old game UI

01:44:55   where it was just like a bunch of raster graphics,

01:44:56   and if the whole OS changes, look,

01:44:58   you have these other apps that were, like,

01:45:00   made in the days before the OS changes, look,

01:45:02   and they didn't fit in, this avoids that.

01:45:04   That said, I agree with all the things,

01:45:06   all the criticisms Marco had about this UI,

01:45:08   and in fact, many of them are not new.

01:45:10   Many of them are the same exact criticisms we had

01:45:12   for the first version of iOS 7,

01:45:14   not legible, controls didn't look like controls,

01:45:17   you know, low contrast, stuff like that,

01:45:19   and in fact, some of these complaints that I would add

01:45:21   are the same ones that I had, personally,

01:45:24   in 2007 for things like Leopard.

01:45:26   Leopard introduced a translucent menu bar.

01:45:28   I couldn't believe when Craig Federighi said,

01:45:30   you know, they're adding translucent menu bar.

01:45:33   It's on our Macs right now.

01:45:34   If you're running Catalina, look at your menu bar.

01:45:36   It is somewhat translucent.

01:45:38   In Leopard, when this was first introduced in the betas,

01:45:41   it was super translucent, like,

01:45:43   it was practically like a sheet of glass,

01:45:44   a sheet of frosted glass.

01:45:46   They backed off of that, and when they shipped Leopard,

01:45:49   it was less translucent, and there was, like,

01:45:51   a P-list hack to override it to make it opaque again,

01:45:53   and I had this big rant about it around the Leopard thing.

01:45:56   Basically, the gist of it was that when Apple introduced

01:45:59   translucency in Mac OS X,

01:46:02   the idea was to use it for transient elements,

01:46:04   so like when a sheet came down,

01:46:05   it was translucent to show it was impermanent,

01:46:07   like you're going to address this dialogue and dismiss it,

01:46:10   that the transparency had a message, you know,

01:46:13   this is, you know, permanent UI is solid,

01:46:15   transient UI is translucent.

01:46:17   That was the sort of thing they were going for.

01:46:19   Then they made the menu bar translucent,

01:46:21   and the menu bar is, or was at the time,

01:46:23   arguably the most permanent fixture on the entire screen.

01:46:26   It could not be hidden unless an app was in full screen mode.

01:46:29   I know that's not true now,

01:46:29   because you can automatically hide it, but anyway.

01:46:31   The new menu bar in Big Sur is even more translucent

01:46:36   than the one they chickened out of shipping in Leopard,

01:46:40   and to the detriment, I think, of legibility and contrast.

01:46:44   If you look at some of these screenshots,

01:46:46   the contrast is bad.

01:46:48   The legibility is bad.

01:46:49   It is difficult to tell what's a button.

01:46:51   The advantage of this design language

01:46:53   is all the accessibility features that exist,

01:46:55   and I think people forget this

01:46:56   if they don't realize that thing is there.

01:46:58   All those accessibility features are easier to implement,

01:47:01   because you can crank up the contrast and the size

01:47:03   in a flexible way that doesn't break the UI,

01:47:06   because everything is sort of descriptive and simplified

01:47:09   and vector and able to accommodate these things,

01:47:12   but I think it's still a failing of the design

01:47:15   if most people would benefit

01:47:17   from going to the accessibility options.

01:47:19   That's not to say going to accessibility options are bad,

01:47:22   but the default experience should try to hit the fat part

01:47:25   of the bell curve of your customer base,

01:47:27   and I think this one does not.

01:47:28   I think it is not going to be obvious

01:47:31   to people what buttons are.

01:47:32   This text is gonna be harder for people to read,

01:47:35   and practically speaking,

01:47:36   I don't care that much about what's behind my windows

01:47:39   that I need it coming forward and impairing legibility,

01:47:42   and Apple has struggled with this on the Mac

01:47:43   for many, many years to strike the balance between,

01:47:46   like in Yosemite, it looks really cool

01:47:48   when the sideboards are translucent,

01:47:50   but of course, you're not actually getting

01:47:52   any additional information.

01:47:53   It's entirely an aesthetic choice,

01:47:55   so if that impacts legibility at all at a non-zero percent,

01:47:59   it's not a great trade-off.

01:48:00   Same thing with the menu bar.

01:48:02   I like that my desktop background is back there,

01:48:05   but I don't need to see the top centimeter of it

01:48:08   through my menu bar if it impairs legibility.

01:48:10   Like in the screenshots I showed you,

01:48:12   if you have a desktop background,

01:48:13   I guess it decides whether your menu bar

01:48:15   is going to have white text or black text

01:48:17   depending on how much it's showing through.

01:48:18   Like that's how much of your desktop background

01:48:20   shows through, that I think it inverts the text

01:48:23   just to make it legible.

01:48:24   It's not great.

01:48:26   So I have serious concerns about this.

01:48:29   It could be iOS 7 all over again

01:48:30   where they go extreme in the beginning

01:48:32   and then they tone it down.

01:48:33   I feel like they should just learn from this.

01:48:35   Like Marco said, hiding things,

01:48:38   like the proxy icon for documents, by the way,

01:48:41   maybe you don't know about this,

01:48:42   but the little icon on the top of document windows

01:48:43   that you can drag to do stuff with,

01:48:45   that's hidden by default.

01:48:46   No one was discovering that thing

01:48:48   when it was visible all the time

01:48:49   and now you're gonna hide it by default?

01:48:50   You could say, okay, well if no one was discovering it,

01:48:52   obviously it's not heavily used,

01:48:53   so why should it be in people's faces?

01:48:55   But it's a useful feature.

01:48:56   You should let people know that it's there more prominently

01:48:59   instead of just completely hiding it.

01:49:01   The controls fading away when you don't need them.

01:49:04   How do people know if they are going to need them

01:49:06   if they don't even recognize them as controls?

01:49:08   I'm also not a fan of that philosophy.

01:49:10   I don't think it fits the Mac.

01:49:12   That said, aesthetically speaking,

01:49:15   rounded corners on all the windows,

01:49:17   the general idea of using more trans-listenly,

01:49:19   I'm mostly on board with the aesthetics, believe it or not,

01:49:21   even the sort of the colors in the sidebar

01:49:23   and stuff like that.

01:49:24   I just feel like the usability,

01:49:27   like the can I read what's on the screen,

01:49:29   can I identify things,

01:49:31   is it clear to me what they're going to do?

01:49:33   You no longer have the benefit of literal decades

01:49:37   of use of a Mac to understand what does a dialog look like,

01:49:40   what does a button look like,

01:49:41   because they've changed all those things so much,

01:49:43   in fact, making them look more and more like iOS

01:49:45   that I think is going to be quite jarring.

01:49:46   Some things that I think people haven't actually realized

01:49:48   if they haven't gone through Apple's web pages,

01:49:50   things like dialog boxes have changed.

01:49:53   When you specify a dialog box programmatically,

01:49:55   for the most part, you say,

01:49:57   I want a dialog, here are the buttons,

01:49:58   here's the text on the buttons,

01:49:59   here's some main text, here's some other text.

01:50:02   You don't lay out those windows like alerts manually,

01:50:05   you just specify that.

01:50:06   So the OS has the flexibility to change them.

01:50:08   I don't know, have you two have looked

01:50:09   at what alerts look like in Big Sur?

01:50:12   - Oh my God, it's hideous.

01:50:14   - They look like iOS alerts.

01:50:16   - Yes, and that, to me, is one of the biggest examples

01:50:20   of why I think this is kind of an iffy

01:50:23   and possibly wrong design philosophy to take,

01:50:25   because one of the reasons why the new dialogs

01:50:29   look so jarring and I think are a little bit worse

01:50:31   is that they use centered text for everything,

01:50:33   because iOS uses centered text for its dialogs.

01:50:36   Centered text might look good in ideal screenshots

01:50:40   where the text is very short.

01:50:41   As soon as you have multiple lines of centered text,

01:50:43   it looks terrible and it's harder to read.

01:50:45   - Or you have a widow.

01:50:46   I mean, it's like I'm reading suck.com all over again.

01:50:48   Like this is not aesthetically pleasing.

01:50:51   The translucency is off the charts

01:50:53   and now you're gonna add the ability to have like red text

01:50:55   like iOS has on buttons.

01:50:58   It is not an upgrade for these features.

01:51:01   Like the good thing is, you know,

01:51:02   because they can change it once, they can change it back.

01:51:04   But like again, the history cannot be, you know,

01:51:08   like you may think most people have more experience

01:51:10   with iOS, but people aren't presented

01:51:12   with dialog boxes constantly in iOS.

01:51:15   That's just not the experience.

01:51:16   On the Mac, you see dialog boxes all the time.

01:51:18   Someone with experience on the Mac has an expectation

01:51:21   of what a dialog box looks like,

01:51:22   what it does and where the controls are.

01:51:23   And this is breaking all of that for a layout

01:51:26   that is also not aesthetically more pleasing.

01:51:28   So why do this at all?

01:51:30   It is a downgrade all around

01:51:31   as far as the alerts are concerned.

01:51:33   - Well, and I think the why do it at all,

01:51:36   Alan Dye answered that question,

01:51:38   but I think it was a bad answer.

01:51:40   You know, the way that this redesign was explained

01:51:44   for the most part, one word that came up constantly

01:51:47   was consistency.

01:51:49   And you know, consistency with iOS is the,

01:51:52   whether he said it or not, that's certainly the implication.

01:51:55   But is this design being used

01:51:58   because this is the great design for the Mac?

01:52:01   Or is this design being used

01:52:03   because it makes it look more like iOS?

01:52:04   I think he very clearly answered the latter is the case,

01:52:08   but because it might not be a better design for the Mac,

01:52:13   I think that's a crappy reason.

01:52:14   And I see, you know, I could see an argument,

01:52:18   as you said, secondly, like, you know,

01:52:20   yeah, a lot of people use iOS.

01:52:21   Yeah, you know what, a lot more people use iOS than macOS.

01:52:23   That is true, but the problems that, like, you know,

01:52:27   and the Mac can be made more usable by taking some iOSisms,

01:52:32   but not necessarily, like, the UI theme

01:52:34   doesn't have to match necessarily,

01:52:36   or it certainly doesn't have to match so closely.

01:52:38   You know, people are not idiots.

01:52:39   They can understand that dialog boxes look different

01:52:41   between platforms, and they can understand, like,

01:52:44   how to read two different dialog boxes.

01:52:45   Like, that's, the level of matching there

01:52:49   for the sake of matching is not necessary.

01:52:51   If it happens to work out that you have a good design

01:52:53   that is a great design on all the platforms,

01:52:56   then cool, use it.

01:52:57   But in this case, it seems like consistency

01:52:59   has taken significantly higher priority

01:53:02   than what's actually the best design for the Mac.

01:53:06   - Or the best design for iOS, for that matter.

01:53:07   I don't think these dialog boxes are good on iOS either.

01:53:09   Like, that's the thing that burns me.

01:53:10   Like, they even changed, you remember Sheets?

01:53:12   This was an innovation of the original Mac OS X,

01:53:14   where when you have a document modal thing,

01:53:16   where it's a thing, Windows is gonna come out on the screen,

01:53:18   and you can't interact anymore with that document window,

01:53:21   but you can use other document windows.

01:53:22   An example would be a save dialog.

01:53:25   In the old Mac, when you initiated, you know,

01:53:27   hit Command + S to save, it would be app modal,

01:53:29   and you couldn't do anything else in that app,

01:53:30   or for that matter, on the entire system,

01:53:32   until you dismiss that dialog.

01:53:33   But Mac OS X, you know,

01:53:34   'cause it's a better, more modern multitasking

01:53:36   operating system, introduced the idea

01:53:38   that if you hit Save on a document,

01:53:40   a sheet will come out, sort of,

01:53:42   of that document's window title bar,

01:53:44   and that document will be like,

01:53:46   oh, you can't do anything with this document

01:53:47   until you decide to either save or cancel, right?

01:53:49   But other document windows,

01:53:51   you could continue to interact with,

01:53:52   and the sheet would just sit there attached to that one,

01:53:54   and because it came out of the title bar,

01:53:55   it was sort of physically attached to the window,

01:53:58   and you understood, yeah,

01:53:59   this window is busy doing a thing.

01:54:01   They've changed how Sheets look

01:54:03   to make them look more like iOS app modal dialogs,

01:54:05   where it fades the background,

01:54:07   and it shows in the center of the window.

01:54:09   I don't think that's an improvement

01:54:11   in terms of me understanding

01:54:13   that this is blocking the whole window,

01:54:15   because there are lots of things

01:54:16   that can present like that,

01:54:17   where they fade the content and show the window,

01:54:18   and it's not clear to me it's associated with the document,

01:54:20   but anyway, Sheets weren't broken.

01:54:22   They fixed it by making it, quote-unquote,

01:54:24   consistent with iOS,

01:54:25   but iOS doesn't have document-based apps.

01:54:27   Yes, it has window modal or app modal dialogs,

01:54:30   and that's how they present,

01:54:31   but this consistency is not worthwhile.

01:54:35   And part of the motivation to this,

01:54:37   and part of sort of the meta-hidden secret theme of this,

01:54:40   if you look at all the different screenshots,

01:54:42   is it's pretty clear to me now

01:54:44   that touch-based Macs are coming,

01:54:46   because every control in here that has changed in some way

01:54:50   is changed to make it not like,

01:54:52   oh, everything is a touch control,

01:54:54   but closer to being touch control,

01:54:56   so the items in the drop-down menus

01:54:58   are pushed a little bit farther apart.

01:54:59   The toolbar items are spread a little bit from each other.

01:55:02   These dialog boxes have a configuration

01:55:04   where the buttons are way bigger than they used to be,

01:55:07   so big, in fact,

01:55:08   that you can imagine choking them with your finger.

01:55:10   It doesn't mean that macOS is going to be a touch-based OS,

01:55:13   because it's not, right?

01:55:14   But the places where they changed it,

01:55:16   like that's the thing about the macOS,

01:55:18   like, oh, they'd have to change the whole UI

01:55:21   to make it work with your finger.

01:55:22   They don't.

01:55:23   They just need it for your finger to be useful in the OS.

01:55:26   You're never gonna use macOS just with your finger,

01:55:28   because you'll never be able to find

01:55:30   the tiny little controls in Final Cut Pro.

01:55:31   Like, it's not gonna happen, right?

01:55:33   You just need the fingers to be good for something.

01:55:35   So the title bars got a little bit thicker.

01:55:37   Look how big the title bars are in the Safari window, right?

01:55:39   Look how big the buttons are in here.

01:55:40   Why would they spread the menu items in a drop-down menu

01:55:43   away from each other to the degree that they did?

01:55:45   It's not like they suddenly introduced Max

01:55:46   with taller screens.

01:55:48   Menus aren't getting any shorter, right?

01:55:50   It's so that it is viable to drag a window with your finger,

01:55:54   to dismiss a dialog with your finger,

01:55:56   to tap a menu in the menu bar

01:55:58   and then tap a menu item with your finger, right?

01:56:00   If that's not why they did this in Touch Max Never Come,

01:56:03   I will not understand this change at all.

01:56:04   But right now, I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt

01:56:06   and saying a lot of the spacing changes,

01:56:08   which in general, the spacing changes on their own,

01:56:10   I don't object to, a lot of them seem like

01:56:13   a clear indication that Touch Base Max are coming.

01:56:16   And I think that is a welcome change.

01:56:18   It's just the aesthetics and the layout choices

01:56:22   of a lot of the things they've changed

01:56:24   do not seem like the right move.

01:56:28   And somewhat related to that,

01:56:29   all the more in an aesthetic front

01:56:31   and in the consistency front,

01:56:32   they've decided that now a good macOS app

01:56:35   should have an icon that looks just like an iOS icon

01:56:37   with a little squircle thing.

01:56:39   Mac apps are allowed to have photorealistic things

01:56:42   apparently on top of them,

01:56:44   and they can break the border of the squircle,

01:56:46   which iOS apps can't.

01:56:47   That's their concession to Mac-ness.

01:56:49   But boy, seeing that dock at the bottom

01:56:52   with a big line of what for all the world

01:56:54   look like iOS icons with weird things floating over them

01:56:56   is very strange.

01:56:57   In the past, Apple has had lots of different

01:57:02   aesthetic policies, let's say,

01:57:04   about what Mac icons are going to look like.

01:57:06   And Mac developers, being the cats that they are,

01:57:10   have mostly refused to be herded.

01:57:12   Whenever I look down at my dock

01:57:16   over the umpteen years of using the Mac

01:57:18   after the Mac OS X transition,

01:57:19   there's always been quite a molly collection of icons.

01:57:22   Apple's icons tend to look consistent with each other,

01:57:24   and that changes over the years.

01:57:25   Then there's a bunch of ones that look like

01:57:27   they're from two generations of the OS ago,

01:57:29   ones that look like they were revised one generation ago.

01:57:32   It's always going to be a molly collection.

01:57:35   I kind of applaud Apple for leading by example,

01:57:39   showing consistent icons.

01:57:41   They did that in the classic Mac OS era,

01:57:42   in classic Mac OS.

01:57:43   Icons were supposed to be a diamond with a hand and a tool,

01:57:47   and a lot of Mac apps followed that.

01:57:49   There was some variation,

01:57:50   basically diamond shape with some variations on top of it.

01:57:53   There was a lot of consistency until,

01:57:55   in classic Mac OS, people figured out,

01:57:56   I can draw whatever the hell I want.

01:57:57   I'm going to make a big alien's face with a tongue sticking

01:57:59   out, and that's what they did, right?

01:58:01   I think that will continue to happen.

01:58:03   I'm not sure.

01:58:05   We know where this is all going.

01:58:08   People were putting up these snarky slides like,

01:58:09   "Oh, is Mac OS merging with iOS?

01:58:11   I thought you said it wasn't, but it looks like they are."

01:58:14   This is the whole subject for another show

01:58:15   that we don't have time to get into now,

01:58:16   but there is an eventual convergence of hardware

01:58:21   and software platforms in the Apple world.

01:58:23   We are edging closer towards it.

01:58:26   There will always be specialization,

01:58:28   just as there is today, between the iOS and iPad OS.

01:58:31   They are specialized for their devices,

01:58:33   and the Mac OS will continue to be specialized,

01:58:34   but this is the next step in that direction.

01:58:36   I just think, as Marco pointed out before,

01:58:38   and as the famous page that I put in one

01:58:41   of my old Mac OS X reviews pointed out,

01:58:43   you don't need things to look literally exactly the same

01:58:46   to understand what they are.

01:58:48   The example from the Bruce Toggazini book was extensions.

01:58:53   In classic Mac OS, you saw puzzle piece icons,

01:58:55   but there was like five different puzzle pieces,

01:58:57   and no one looked at them and said,

01:58:59   "Is that an extension?

01:59:00   I can't tell, because it's usually the puzzle piece

01:59:01   with one little prong on one side

01:59:03   and a hole on the other side,

01:59:04   but this one is a whole different,

01:59:05   it looks like a puzzle piece."

01:59:07   You can tell.

01:59:08   It doesn't have to be literally the same puzzle piece

01:59:10   for you to understand what it is.

01:59:12   Ditto with buttons and dialogues and windows.

01:59:15   As long as they look buttony enough,

01:59:18   as long as, you know,

01:59:18   it doesn't have to be literally exactly the same,

01:59:21   so to the degree that Apple feels like it needs to do that

01:59:24   for consistency and learnability,

01:59:26   I think they're overcompensating in that direction,

01:59:30   and I think they're, you know,

01:59:33   I applaud the direction.

01:59:34   I think there should be some kind of unification.

01:59:37   It makes sense, especially in light of the hardware changes

01:59:38   they're about to talk about,

01:59:39   but I think they are taking it too far,

01:59:43   they're taking it too literally right now,

01:59:44   and I hope they back off a little.

01:59:46   - You know what's funny to me?

01:59:47   I intellectually agree with everything you guys have said,

01:59:51   that a lot of these choices seem ridiculous.

01:59:53   It's emphasizing the wrong things.

01:59:55   I think it looks really good though.

01:59:57   The only thing that I really am annoyed by,

02:00:00   and I am unreasonably annoyed by this,

02:00:02   and I don't know why,

02:00:03   but when you pull down a menu in macOS right now,

02:00:08   the menu itself is connected to the entry in the menu bar.

02:00:12   So, you know, if you look at, say, Chrome,

02:00:15   and you look at the bookmarks menu,

02:00:17   the word bookmarks is connected to the items

02:00:20   that are below that word,

02:00:21   and now there's a little gap between the menu item

02:00:25   and the menu bar and the menu itself,

02:00:28   and oh my gosh, does this annoy me.

02:00:30   I don't know why it annoys me so much, but it does.

02:00:33   - The menu has rounded corners on the top,

02:00:35   and it is also slightly wider than the menu.

02:00:38   These are all just aesthetic choices

02:00:40   that are mostly silly or whatever,

02:00:41   they're like the rounded corner things.

02:00:43   I tweeted that I was happy that the screen image itself

02:00:46   does not have rounded corners,

02:00:48   but classic macOS used to have rounded corners

02:00:50   in the upper right and upper left corners.

02:00:52   Like, they would just black out those pixels

02:00:53   to make it look a little bit round.

02:00:56   People still keep thinking that the future Macs

02:00:59   will actually have rounded screens like the new iPads do,

02:01:01   and maybe that's gonna happen,

02:01:02   but it's neither here nor there.

02:01:04   But yeah, I see your aesthetic objection

02:01:08   to the disconnected menus in the rounded corners.

02:01:10   I think it's fine, you know, it's not that big of a deal.

02:01:14   The one part that I gotta kick out of

02:01:16   is of course the dock in Big Sur

02:01:20   looks a lot like of course the iPad OS dock,

02:01:25   and it also happens to look like Switch Glass.

02:01:27   I mean, there's a reason Switch Glass looks the way it does.

02:01:29   It's not, you know, but interestingly,

02:01:32   Switch Glass is going to fit in perfectly in Big Sur,

02:01:36   and since my corner radiuses are adjustable,

02:01:39   you can actually make it fit exactly if you want.

02:01:41   - Oh, look at you.

02:01:42   - Everyone buys Switch Glass,

02:01:43   it is perfectly made for Big Sur.

02:01:44   Unfortunately, my icon, well, my icon does fit in

02:01:47   because it is an iOS style squircle, right,

02:01:50   with little symbols on it,

02:01:51   but it's a little bit more photo real,

02:01:53   and it's not exactly head on,

02:01:54   so maybe someday I'll have to change the icon to fit in,

02:01:57   but maybe I won't, you know what I mean?

02:01:58   I'll just be one of those motley icons

02:01:59   that looks like it was made in previous eras

02:02:01   'cause, you know, I intentionally made my icon

02:02:03   look slightly different than the current style

02:02:05   because I like the style my icon is.

02:02:07   It looks really cool and likable,

02:02:08   and you know, I might just keep it that way.

02:02:11   Anyway, you shouldn't really show the dock icon

02:02:13   in Switch Glass anyway, you should disable it.

02:02:15   - Wow, overall though, I do think that this looks good.

02:02:20   From a behavioral standpoint,

02:02:23   I think a lot, if not all, of the complaints

02:02:25   that the two of you had are completely reasonable

02:02:27   and will bear fruit in the sense

02:02:30   that we will think that these are problems.

02:02:32   But just looking at it with a couple of quibbles

02:02:34   here and there, I think it looks good,

02:02:36   and I can't tell you why, but I do find it

02:02:41   just assigned a kind of unconsciously,

02:02:43   subconsciously appealing, subconsciously appealing

02:02:46   that everything does look similar.

02:02:48   I agree with what you said,

02:02:49   that the Mac doesn't have to look like the iPad,

02:02:51   and if the puzzle pieces all look like puzzle pieces,

02:02:54   I'll understand what's going on.

02:02:55   But I don't know, I kind of feel like it is nice

02:02:58   to have what appears at a glance anyway

02:03:01   to be the approximately same design language

02:03:05   across all these disparate devices.

02:03:07   So it all just feels like a different version

02:03:10   of the same tool.

02:03:11   Like one of these screwdrivers is a Philips,

02:03:14   one is a straight, but they're still just screwdrivers.

02:03:17   And I do like that, having not used Big Sur yet,

02:03:21   having not used iOS 14 yet, I do like it.

02:03:23   And I think it looks very modern.

02:03:27   As with all new UIs, it's made the Mac I'm sitting

02:03:30   in front of, the software portion of the Mac

02:03:32   I'm sitting in front of, look old and busted,

02:03:34   almost immediately.

02:03:35   And I don't think that's a bad thing.

02:03:36   I think that's a good thing.

02:03:38   Marco, you haven't talked for a while,

02:03:39   so I'd like to give you a chance to make any

02:03:41   other final thoughts, but I think we should probably

02:03:43   plow forward on the new look and start talking about

02:03:45   some of the other features of Big Sur after Marco,

02:03:47   you have a chance.

02:03:49   - The only, I mean, I'm gonna have a lot of gripes

02:03:50   about the theme.

02:03:52   And I think, I'm glad John brought up Sheets being gone

02:03:57   and being replaced, these weird like just blob overlays,

02:04:00   'cause I think that's a huge regression.

02:04:02   But ultimately, what I find concerning here

02:04:06   is that the Mac has not had a great few years

02:04:10   of software quality.

02:04:12   We've had a lot of really like paper cut kind of issues

02:04:15   with Mac OS, and that's why many of us,

02:04:19   including us right here last week,

02:04:20   were saying, boy, we just hope the Mac OS

02:04:22   has a quiet year of just stability improvements

02:04:25   and like a bug fix year, not any kind of major new features.

02:04:30   And instead, Apple did a system-wide redesign

02:04:33   that will require like all apps to be significantly redesigned

02:04:37   and so what this does is they have basically placed

02:04:41   a huge burden of like required work to keep up

02:04:46   with the system on all Mac developers,

02:04:49   including themselves, for anything like any kind

02:04:52   of Mac OS-related software.

02:04:54   Now, instead of working on quality, they and everyone else

02:04:58   has to first work on this new theme,

02:05:01   and then maybe if you have time left,

02:05:02   then you can work on quality.

02:05:05   And that's just the last thing that Mac developers

02:05:08   and Apple as the biggest Mac developer,

02:05:10   that's the last thing they needed right now.

02:05:12   The biggest thing they needed right now is like,

02:05:14   please give us a year off so we can work on quality.

02:05:17   And instead, they're doing a system-wide redesign.

02:05:20   And if you look at what happened when iOS had its,

02:05:23   you know, had the iOS 7 change,

02:05:26   so many apps had to be redesigned from scratch

02:05:29   to look at all correct and reasonable and good

02:05:32   and competitive on that platform,

02:05:35   that we kind of had like two or three years

02:05:37   of lost productivity in quality and features in iOS app

02:05:41   because so much effort had to be expended

02:05:44   to just keep up with the new direction the system

02:05:47   was taking in and redesign to fit the new theme.

02:05:50   And now, we're gonna have that same thing happen on the Mac

02:05:54   where that really was not a thing that we could afford to do.

02:05:58   Now, maybe this will all work out in the end.

02:06:01   You know, maybe where we're going with, you know,

02:06:04   the don't say ARM Macs and everything else,

02:06:07   and unification with iOS apps running on the Mac,

02:06:11   that all could be a great endgame,

02:06:13   but this just threw a massive cost

02:06:16   and a ton of instability into an ecosystem

02:06:19   that doesn't seem like it was ready to bear that cost.

02:06:23   - Yeah, I get where you're coming from,

02:06:24   but I think, you know, what I really wanted was

02:06:29   no big changes to the plumbing.

02:06:31   Like, from the app developers' perspective, you're right,

02:06:33   they're gonna burn a lot of time on this,

02:06:34   and that's a shame.

02:06:35   But if, you know, you're doing like a redesign on this

02:06:38   in the surface level, what I care about is like,

02:06:41   does the, you know, DNS responder not crash?

02:06:45   Does the Bluetooth stack work correctly?

02:06:47   Does the USB peripherals not unmount my drives?

02:06:50   Like, those are the things I care about,

02:06:53   the plumbing of the OS.

02:06:54   And so if this, like, if all the time they spent on this

02:06:57   is mostly on sort of like, you know,

02:06:59   obviously all the ARM stuff and Catalyst stuff,

02:07:01   it's sort of like surface level UI stuff,

02:07:03   but the teams that work on like the, you know,

02:07:07   like I said, the USB stack, they spent the entire release

02:07:09   not adding any new features and just making it work.

02:07:12   That's what I hope.

02:07:12   But my optimistic scenario is like,

02:07:14   this was a higher level in the stack big change.

02:07:19   And what I was, what I meant when we were saying like,

02:07:22   oh, I hope this release is just like, you know,

02:07:24   no new features type of thing, is that under the covers,

02:07:27   you don't say, yeah, we rewrote the entire

02:07:29   Windows server again, and we have a new DNS responder

02:07:32   this time, and the Bluetooth stack is all new,

02:07:35   'cause that's the stuff that's burning me up.

02:07:37   It's not like changing the UI stuff.

02:07:39   In general, the UI stuff may be good, may be bad,

02:07:41   but it's not gonna take down your entire system.

02:07:43   I just need it to work fundamentally at a hardware level.

02:07:45   So I still have hope that that's the case.

02:07:47   Maybe that's also screwed up too.

02:07:48   Who knows?

02:07:49   They didn't talk about it in this release.

02:07:51   They certainly didn't say anything about time machine

02:07:52   APFS enhancements, but you know, the week is young.

02:07:55   So I'm, I can't remember where you're coming from,

02:07:58   but I'm still holding out hope.

02:07:59   And also in terms of burning up time with the look,

02:08:02   but that's part of, if you've been following Apple's APIs

02:08:04   and using source lists and stuff like that, like this,

02:08:06   yes, there are new APIs you have to adopt and stuff,

02:08:08   but in general, I hope Mac apps will look reasonable-ish

02:08:13   with minimal changes.

02:08:14   Like that's the beauty of their recent changes have been

02:08:17   that if you follow them, you don't have to redesign

02:08:20   your entire app every time.

02:08:21   Like the big iOS 7 transition is because people had

02:08:24   pixel perfect hand-drawn raster UIs and iOS 7 threw that

02:08:29   all in the garbage.

02:08:30   Post iOS 7, I think, you know, as the iOS 7 evolved

02:08:34   and the UI changed, people haven't had to throw out

02:08:36   everything, I think they've learned that lesson.

02:08:38   So like I said, the bones of this thing,

02:08:41   using vectors for stuff, being able to change things

02:08:44   like having the accessibility features be able to work well,

02:08:47   easily increase contrast, easily increase size,

02:08:49   have everything scaled to fit and everything.

02:08:51   The bones are good.

02:08:52   The individual aesthetic choices, I think a lot of them

02:08:55   are bad, so I have some hope that we can recover from this.

02:08:59   And honestly, I'm kind of a little bit with Casey

02:09:01   in that like as quote unquote bad as this might be

02:09:04   for all the reasons I outline, I am excited about

02:09:06   there being a new look.

02:09:07   I'm always excited about there being a new look.

02:09:09   Like it's cool to see the Mac change the way it looks.

02:09:11   It's just we also need it to work well, so we'll get there.

02:09:16   - All right, in the interest of having the show end

02:09:19   before next week, I'd like to speed round

02:09:22   the next few items.

02:09:23   Messages, Maps, both Catalyst.

02:09:26   We talked earlier about Messages supposedly getting

02:09:29   either near feature parity or complete feature parity

02:09:31   with iOS since it is Catalyst now.

02:09:33   That's excellent, I'm very, very excited about that.

02:09:36   Maps, nothing about that revved my engine in particular,

02:09:39   but hey, the better Maps gets, the happier I am with it.

02:09:44   Safari, we talked about the privacy report

02:09:46   and password compromise detections.

02:09:48   Translation will happen in Safari.

02:09:50   Apparently Safari extensions have been revamped

02:09:53   and you can even import them from Chrome

02:09:56   or Firefox extensions.

02:09:57   - Is that true?

02:09:58   That's a question mark.

02:09:59   - No, I heard them say something about,

02:10:00   I don't remember the exact verbiage,

02:10:02   but basically you can take a Chrome or Firefox extension

02:10:05   and use it in Safari is what I thought I had heard.

02:10:08   - Yeah, they described it as the Web Extensions API

02:10:11   and to quote, bring over extensions built

02:10:13   for other browsers.

02:10:15   I made a note to look up what the heck

02:10:16   that Web Essentials API is,

02:10:17   'cause it made it sound like there's some kind

02:10:18   of standard API that I just don't know about,

02:10:20   but it wouldn't surprise me.

02:10:21   I don't know about any of this stuff.

02:10:22   - Yeah, and in typical Safari fashion,

02:10:24   you can limit it to individual websites

02:10:26   and limit it by time.

02:10:27   There's all sorts of controls on it

02:10:28   and it's the first time you use it.

02:10:30   It's all the security controls that you would expect.

02:10:32   Chrome has similar ones, but Apple's bringing its twist to it

02:10:35   so that's all good news.

02:10:37   Yeah, and the new version of Safari has favicons

02:10:40   in all the tabs, which John Gruber will love

02:10:42   and apparently everyone will love

02:10:44   'cause the whole reason he got keyed into that story

02:10:46   is because people were saying the number one reason

02:10:48   for using Chrome instead of Safari

02:10:49   was because you couldn't have little icons in the tabs.

02:10:51   It was just text in Safari,

02:10:53   presumably for, again, aesthetic reasons,

02:10:55   you know, omitting the icons.

02:10:56   Well, we can't have all those weird colored icons.

02:10:58   They ruined the vibe of this cool gray

02:11:01   at one time brush metal thing

02:11:03   and people are like, the icons add information.

02:11:05   That lets me know what site it is.

02:11:06   You know, so Chrome had icons and Safari didn't

02:11:09   and Safari has finally come around on that.

02:11:11   So that's all good news.

02:11:12   And of course, Safari is super fast.

02:11:14   - Yeah, and to be clear, Safari did have icons

02:11:18   in the tabs before, but it was added fairly recently,

02:11:22   but it was off by default.

02:11:23   Now it's on by default.

02:11:24   - Indeed, all right.

02:11:27   So big news, what did Tim say something about

02:11:30   we're going deep into the Mac?

02:11:32   We are getting Apple Silicon, Silicon.

02:11:36   - Not Silicon.

02:11:36   - We're just gonna say Arm Macs.

02:11:39   - Every time I get that wrong.

02:11:40   I was trying not to say Arm Macs

02:11:41   'cause they never said Arm Macs.

02:11:43   - We're gonna say it because that's what they are.

02:11:45   - Fair enough.

02:11:46   We are getting Apple Silicon, there we go.

02:11:49   We are getting Apple Silicon, we're getting Arm Macs

02:11:51   and apparently we're getting, or at least

02:11:54   as far as we can tell, at first we're getting

02:11:57   what is basically the same processor as in the iPad Pros.

02:12:00   We're getting an A12Z.

02:12:02   - That's just the Pentium 4.

02:12:04   - Yeah, that's just for the dev kit.

02:12:06   You know, we'll see what actually ships.

02:12:08   - Yeah, so what they announced is they are making

02:12:10   a family of SOCs, a family of system-on-a-chips for Macs

02:12:15   and that they didn't come right out and say this

02:12:16   but eventually through the accumulation of everything

02:12:18   they said they are Arm CPUs, surprise,

02:12:21   just like they are on their iOS devices

02:12:23   because they run the same binaries

02:12:24   and the A12Z is the one they're testing with, whatever.

02:12:28   And so the family of Mac SOCs is letting them

02:12:31   letting you know that not just making one of these chips,

02:12:34   there's going to be a family of them,

02:12:35   presumably from small to large,

02:12:37   from their weak lower powered thing to the higher power one.

02:12:40   They did not commit to say,

02:12:42   we're going to have chips that scale

02:12:43   from our tiniest notebook all the way up to our Mac Pro.

02:12:45   They did not say that.

02:12:46   What they did say was that this would be

02:12:49   a two year long transition.

02:12:51   Their first Arm-based Mac would ship

02:12:53   before the end of this year, if everything goes well.

02:12:56   And that they, you know, as we said in the previous shows,

02:12:59   trying to consult people with Intel Macs,

02:13:01   they will continue to make and sell

02:13:03   and announce new Intel-based Macs

02:13:04   because what do you think they're going to do,

02:13:05   not sell Macs for two years?

02:13:07   That's what they're going to do.

02:13:08   So they announced all of that.

02:13:09   Hopefully everyone who listens to the show

02:13:10   is already prepared for that

02:13:12   because that's how these transitions go.

02:13:14   No big surprises.

02:13:15   Also, if you listen to the show,

02:13:17   you would have heard our prediction be on the money

02:13:19   about the developer transition kit,

02:13:21   down to it being called DTK.

02:13:22   It's a Mac mini and inside it is the equivalent

02:13:25   of a Pentium 4, meaning it's a chip

02:13:27   that probably will never ship in an Arm-based Mac,

02:13:30   but it's what they've got handy right now.

02:13:32   So they shoved an A12Z with 16 gigs of RAM

02:13:36   and a 512 gigabyte SSD and quote,

02:13:38   a complement of Mac I/O ports.

02:13:41   I don't know what that means.

02:13:42   They later clarified what that means, by the way.

02:13:45   It's two USB-C, two USB-A, and HDMI and Ethernet.

02:13:50   I think that's it.

02:13:51   And so, notably absent is Thunderbolt,

02:13:54   which again, we talked about kind of why that might be,

02:13:57   but that's a topic for another day.

02:13:58   But basically, this does not have that.

02:14:01   This only has USB-C, USB-A, and HDMI and Ethernet.

02:14:08   And because it's an A12Z, you would imagine

02:14:10   that it has similar I/O capabilities to the iPad,

02:14:12   which has the A12Z in it, so the iPad does not,

02:14:15   to our knowledge, have Thunderbolt capability

02:14:16   and neither does this developer transition kit.

02:14:18   - Although interestingly, I noticed that they said,

02:14:21   Craig said during the presentation,

02:14:23   that this computer that we've been running on

02:14:25   is the developer transition kit.

02:14:27   Did he actually say it was the DTK?

02:14:30   - They said it was Arm.

02:14:31   There's lots of hand-waving about

02:14:33   what are these demos running on.

02:14:35   It was just clear that they're running on Apple Silicon.

02:14:38   That was usually what they said.

02:14:39   - It was running on a 6K XDR,

02:14:42   which is not driveable via USB-C,

02:14:46   so I'm wondering what that was about.

02:14:49   But yeah, I think you're right.

02:14:50   I think that was a technicality that this was

02:14:52   a Mac running Apple Silicon, but it was not the DTK.

02:14:55   - They were very careful.

02:14:56   I was watching, because before they even announced the DTK,

02:14:59   I was looking for a Mac Mini on their desks,

02:15:01   and watch where all those cords go

02:15:03   from those cinema display, those Pro Display XDRs.

02:15:07   They go somewhere, but you never see them

02:15:09   attached to a computer.

02:15:10   So there's lots of clever staging in this supposed lab,

02:15:15   which is really obviously like a set,

02:15:17   or a carefully arranged corner of the lab.

02:15:20   So if you want one of these developer transition kits,

02:15:25   you give Apple $500, they give you one of these things,

02:15:28   plus some exclusive access to private forums

02:15:31   and stuff like that, and then you have to give it

02:15:33   back to Apple, just like the weird Pentium 4 cheese graters.

02:15:36   You get a weird Mac Mini case with iPad guts inside it

02:15:40   with some weird IO ports, and then you give it back to Apple.

02:15:43   This is only if you're one of the lucky few.

02:15:44   There is a signup process.

02:15:46   There are a limited number of these things going out.

02:15:48   If you would like a developer transition kit,

02:15:51   you put your name in the hat, you write a little paragraph

02:15:53   of text telling Apple why you think you want this,

02:15:55   and what your app is that you're going to port to ARM,

02:15:58   and then you wait to hear from them.

02:16:01   And they're shipping this week, so I guess we'll all find out

02:16:04   if we win the lottery.

02:16:05   - I say we because I put my hat in the ring.

02:16:07   I have two Mac apps, and the reason I specified

02:16:10   was that I want to talk about the process

02:16:12   of porting them to ARM on my podcast.

02:16:14   Marco, you also put your hat in the ring?

02:16:16   - I did because I have Quitter, and Quitter really has

02:16:19   to make sure it runs on day one.

02:16:22   No, I'm just kidding.

02:16:23   I put my name in the hat for forecast,

02:16:26   and I also mentioned overcast, 'cause forecast,

02:16:28   yes, I want to make sure forecast, which uses,

02:16:31   it uses the lame MP3 encoding library under the hood,

02:16:34   and that's very time critical and performance critical,

02:16:37   and it's this low-level thing that's this third-party

02:16:39   library, so I want to make sure that works.

02:16:41   And I also want to make sure that overcast works correctly

02:16:43   when it's run via the download from the app store thing

02:16:46   that we'll talk about, I guess, sometime,

02:16:48   because that's also a pretty important thing,

02:16:50   and that I want to make sure all the low-level audio code

02:16:53   works well and is performant and everything else.

02:16:55   So yeah, so both things, but they seem to mostly care

02:16:57   about Mac apps specifically, so I mainly made

02:16:59   my little blurb about forecast.

02:17:01   - Yeah, I really hope they have a lot of these.

02:17:03   It'll be a shame if they have really, really limited supply

02:17:06   and most people don't get them.

02:17:07   I hope they just have enough to go around.

02:17:09   I mean, I understand the limitations, but you know.

02:17:12   Anyway, shipping this week, so that's good,

02:17:13   and I hope that if they run out of them,

02:17:15   maybe they can make more.

02:17:16   If there's huge demand, they can make more

02:17:18   and ship them out in the future, so I'm more than willing

02:17:20   to pay 500 bucks to get this weird Mac Mini thing,

02:17:22   even I have to give it back.

02:17:24   I don't know if they're gonna have any credit,

02:17:26   if you, I haven't looked into the details,

02:17:27   if you give it back, you get some kind of credit

02:17:29   towards something, you just lose that $500 forever,

02:17:31   where they give you a special deal like they did

02:17:32   on the Intel iMacs that you could buy

02:17:34   after you return the Pentium 4 dev kits.

02:17:37   But anyway, that's all straight up the middle.

02:17:38   More stuff straight up the middle.

02:17:40   Universal binaries, hey, binaries that have Intel code

02:17:43   and ARM in them, this is part of Apple's 2 branding,

02:17:46   it's called Universal 2.

02:17:48   Why do you have to call it 2, just call it Universal,

02:17:50   like the old Universal binaries were so long ago,

02:17:52   no one will get it confused, it'll be fine.

02:17:54   - Well, and they're still universal,

02:17:55   it's like calling something more unique.

02:17:57   It's not, it's just, it's still universal.

02:17:59   - I'm sure maybe it's a slightly different tech,

02:18:01   we'll see when we start taking apart the OS

02:18:03   and seeing what exactly the executable format is.

02:18:06   A lot of this is less relevant than it was before,

02:18:08   because Apple introduced app thinning in recent years,

02:18:11   where when you download from one of their app stores,

02:18:13   they don't give you the whole universal binary,

02:18:15   they just give you the one that has the executable code

02:18:18   for whatever machine you're on, so it saves in size,

02:18:20   and you don't have to download an app that's twice as big,

02:18:22   which is nice, although it really wouldn't be twice as big,

02:18:24   I don't think, anyway.

02:18:26   But that's what we expect in these type of transitions,

02:18:29   and there it is.

02:18:30   - And the final one, I will collect my points

02:18:32   for being right about being able to run x86 code

02:18:35   on your ARM Mac, Apple's gonna let you do it,

02:18:37   and they did a really amazing job, you know what,

02:18:39   'cause they're really good at this,

02:18:40   they reused the name Rosetta,

02:18:41   but called it Rosetta 2 for some reason,

02:18:44   and they do all the things, right?

02:18:46   So can you run x86 apps unmodified on your ARM Mac?

02:18:50   Yes, you can.

02:18:51   What about plugins?

02:18:52   Yes, you can.

02:18:53   What about app extensions and drivers?

02:18:57   If you use DriverKit, you can even run those.

02:18:59   Older drivers are not supported,

02:19:01   but they went all the way out to making sure

02:19:04   that you can run all the types of x86 things

02:19:07   that are reasonable to run.

02:19:09   They do what they call translation, not emulation,

02:19:12   but translation, and they do it either at install time

02:19:15   or on first launch for app packages

02:19:17   that are bundled in the .app thing.

02:19:20   Basically, they will write out to disk

02:19:23   the ARM equivalent of the x86 code,

02:19:26   so it doesn't have to do that on the fly.

02:19:29   And again, if they control the app store,

02:19:30   they'll do it at install time,

02:19:31   but if they don't, they'll just do it on first launch.

02:19:33   There's also a dynamic translation available

02:19:35   for things that are sort of just-in-time compiled,

02:19:37   like the just-in-time compiler for JavaScript code

02:19:40   in a web browser or something like that.

02:19:42   They have all the things.

02:19:44   Apple is really good at this.

02:19:45   They've done it many times in the past,

02:19:46   and whatever team did it last time

02:19:48   for the Intel transition, presumably,

02:19:50   all that expertise and institutional knowledge

02:19:52   is still at Apple, and I have high hopes

02:19:53   that this will be just as amazing.

02:19:55   There was lots of concern that, oh, well,

02:19:58   ARM CPUs aren't gonna be that much faster than Intel,

02:20:00   so can they even handle this?

02:20:02   Will it be feasible to run x86 software?

02:20:05   Part of the reason that I predicted last show

02:20:08   that they would have this feature

02:20:09   is because it running slightly slowly

02:20:13   is way better than it not running at all.

02:20:15   Lots of apps are not performance sensitive.

02:20:17   You just need them to run.

02:20:19   Apple wasn't satisfied with that in the demo.

02:20:21   They're not like, oh, don't worry.

02:20:22   You won't lose your software.

02:20:23   Your crap will run.

02:20:24   They're like, look, we're gonna run

02:20:25   an x86 game on modified, which, granted,

02:20:29   it wasn't the most demanding game,

02:20:30   and they ran it at 1080, but it was a fairly recent game.

02:20:33   It was Shadow of the Tomb Raider,

02:20:34   which was from 2018, and running it at low res, fine,

02:20:38   but that was their demo of not only can you run

02:20:42   x86 software, not only will your favorite,

02:20:45   you'll be able to run Scrivener before they do

02:20:47   the ARM port, and it will be fine,

02:20:49   and you won't even notice.

02:20:50   It'll be completely transparent to you,

02:20:52   but you can run this game, which it's not saying

02:20:55   you can run any game.

02:20:56   Games are gonna, it's gonna be worse, right,

02:20:58   but any, literally any real-time 3D game being viable

02:21:02   is a fairly amazing demonstration of either the power

02:21:06   of whatever ARM Mac that they were running an add-on,

02:21:08   or the cleverness of the translation,

02:21:10   but most likely both, so I'm pretty excited about that,

02:21:13   and the other big theme software-wise with integration

02:21:17   with this ARM stuff is, talked the last show

02:21:20   about this being an opportunity to ditch old stuff,

02:21:23   to say, well, transitioning to ARM,

02:21:25   you might not even call them Macs,

02:21:26   and you can deprecate all your old APIs,

02:21:28   you can ditch all the things.

02:21:30   It seems like all of their ditching has already happened,

02:21:33   and instead they're saying, we're not taking away APIs,

02:21:37   we're not breaking your crap unnecessarily.

02:21:40   OpenGL is still there.

02:21:42   Like, kernel extensions are still exported,

02:21:45   still supported in Big Sur, not under Rosetta,

02:21:48   but they are supporting, like, basically,

02:21:52   anything that runs in Catalina, in theory,

02:21:55   should continue to run in Big Sur.

02:21:57   Now, will that hold after Big Sur?

02:21:59   I don't know, but for now, they're trying to ease

02:22:01   the transition by saying, we're not gonna break your crap

02:22:04   completely unnecessarily.

02:22:06   We already did all that, we already deprecated 32-bit,

02:22:08   we already got all this stuff, OpenGL is still deprecated

02:22:11   and will go away someday, but don't blame it on ARM.

02:22:14   Like, ARM's not taking away your stuff.

02:22:17   Again, the only exception are things like kernel extensions,

02:22:19   where they really can't do anything about that.

02:22:21   But, you know, USB drivers with Driver Kit, app extensions,

02:22:25   your apps, all that stuff will work.

02:22:26   This is before we even get to, like,

02:22:27   how hard is it to port your thing.

02:22:29   They are bending over backwards to make sure

02:22:31   that you don't buy your first ARM Mac and say,

02:22:34   oh, what the hell am I gonna run on it?

02:22:35   And so I was very excited to see all that.

02:22:38   - Yeah, that was, I'm extremely happy

02:22:41   to give you your points.

02:22:42   I was totally wrong, like I said last show,

02:22:44   that I thought there wasn't gonna be any emulation,

02:22:46   and I thought anything that was currently deprecated,

02:22:48   like OpenGL, would just be gone under ARM Macs.

02:22:51   And I was wrong on both of those fronts by a lot.

02:22:54   And that's a very good thing.

02:22:57   I'm very, very glad that they've chosen here.

02:23:00   You know, there's a number of things,

02:23:02   like, you know, we were worried about, like,

02:23:03   might they introduce more strict security?

02:23:06   Maybe everything has to be app store only,

02:23:08   or it'll be a harder process to, like,

02:23:11   compile your own software or anything.

02:23:13   Nope, no changes.

02:23:14   Like, it seems like there's actually no additional,

02:23:18   like, security restrictions in the OS

02:23:21   for anything that any normal person would ever do,

02:23:25   you know, for the ARM Macs compared to other Macs.

02:23:27   Like, here's how Big Sur runs.

02:23:30   Big Sur seems to be not any more strict than Catalina

02:23:33   in most ways, and it runs the same way,

02:23:35   whether you're on Intel or Apple Silicon,

02:23:38   whatever they're gonna call that.

02:23:39   And so that's fantastic news.

02:23:42   It is worth noting, though, that the Rosetta layer,

02:23:46   they were very clear in labeling it transitional

02:23:49   in a number of points in both the keynote

02:23:50   and the State of the Union.

02:23:51   So I would expect, just like the original Rosetta

02:23:54   from PowerPC to Intel, I would expect this is going to last

02:23:57   maybe three or four years and then be removed from the OS.

02:24:00   So, you know, don't get too attached to anything

02:24:03   that needs it, but it is nice for the transition.

02:24:05   And then the other kind of big elephant in the room

02:24:08   is that Windows compatibility was never mentioned,

02:24:11   including in the virtualization layer,

02:24:12   because the virtualization layer can only run ARM hosts.

02:24:15   It cannot create x86 hosts.

02:24:18   Virtualization and Rosetta are separate things,

02:24:20   and they are not to be combined.

02:24:23   And the ability, of course, to boot into boot camp

02:24:27   is probably totally gone as well,

02:24:29   because I don't think anything is able to use Rosetta

02:24:33   quite to that level, like running an entire OS level.

02:24:38   So Rosetta is for apps, not OSes.

02:24:40   So if your workflow depends on virtualizing or booting

02:24:45   into Windows, you're going to have a problem.

02:24:48   And I don't know, what is the status of-- is there like an ARM

02:24:50   port of Windows anymore, or does it matter?

02:24:52   No, there totally is Windows for ARM.

02:24:54   Like, here's the thing.

02:24:55   They didn't mention anything about Windows, right?

02:24:58   But they did-- like, the stand-in for Windows was Linux.

02:25:01   So they showed an ARM version of Linux

02:25:03   running in virtualization.

02:25:04   The virtualization, by the way, is like the same way

02:25:06   you do virtualization on x86, where you can take your x86 CPU

02:25:09   that's in your Mac, and you can run any other x86 operating

02:25:13   system sharing the CPU.

02:25:15   Same thing with ARM.

02:25:16   Take another ARM operating system,

02:25:17   like they have their hypervisor and all this stuff that

02:25:19   lets you take another operating system that runs on ARM

02:25:22   and run it on the same thing that's running Mac OS,

02:25:25   and they share the resources and work it out.

02:25:27   So that's virtualization, and that works on ARM.

02:25:31   But that doesn't help you at all with x86, right?

02:25:33   So they showed that happening in Linux.

02:25:35   They showed Parallels running Linux.

02:25:37   And people might be confused.

02:25:38   Say, oh, well, look at that.

02:25:39   They're running Linux.

02:25:39   It does support x86.

02:25:40   That was ARM Linux.

02:25:42   And Linux is on every platform, of course.

02:25:44   So of course, there's an ARM port of it.

02:25:45   Which, by the way, I think I'll probably

02:25:47   use that for server development.

02:25:48   That looks awesome compared to trying

02:25:50   to make sure that PHP and everything installed properly

02:25:53   with Homebrew on Mac OS, which changes and breaks every OS

02:25:56   release.

02:25:57   That's been such a pain in my ass most of the time.

02:25:59   I'm actually very much looking forward to probably, hopefully,

02:26:02   switching to that in the future.

02:26:03   You could be doing that today.

02:26:04   They showed Docker, same deal.

02:26:06   You could be doing that today with VMware or whatever.

02:26:09   But Windows does exist for ARM.

02:26:12   And there is no technical reason why

02:26:13   Boot Camp can't exist to let your ARM-based Mac boot

02:26:16   into Windows for ARM, which you may be sad about.

02:26:19   But it's like, oh, who the hell cares about Windows for ARM?

02:26:22   None of my games will run.

02:26:22   They're all x86, yada, yada.

02:26:23   But I don't know what was preventing

02:26:27   Windows from being demoed.

02:26:28   I don't know why Boot Camp wasn't there.

02:26:30   I continue to think that eventually Boot Camp will rise

02:26:33   again as a way for you to boot Windows for ARM on your Mac.

02:26:37   This is an interesting time.

02:26:38   We've talked about this before.

02:26:40   I'll take the other side of that bit.

02:26:41   All right.

02:26:42   Well, you might be wrong again.

02:26:43   Feel free.

02:26:43   [LAUGHTER]

02:26:44   Oh.

02:26:45   I think you will be able to boot ARM Windows on these Macs

02:26:48   eventually.

02:26:48   Part of this is predicated on the idea of everyone

02:26:52   more or less moving away from x86,

02:26:53   partly because Intel's been having problems

02:26:55   with their process, but also partly

02:26:57   because this is just the way things have been going.

02:27:00   It's a slow change, but I feel like we're

02:27:02   going in that direction.

02:27:03   We may halt, and the progression towards ARM everywhere

02:27:06   may just stop dead in its track and not get any farther.

02:27:08   But over the past several years, there

02:27:11   has been a steady drumbeat in that direction.

02:27:13   Apple going full ARM, although it makes sense

02:27:15   for tons of other reasons, is another--

02:27:17   I'm not going to say another nail in that coffin for Intel,

02:27:19   because Intel is still making stuff.

02:27:21   But it could happen.

02:27:23   Now, there are a lot of concerns about,

02:27:26   is all my software going to run?

02:27:27   Forget about my Mac apps or whatever,

02:27:29   but what if I don't want to virtualize ARM Linux?

02:27:31   What if I have a bunch of open source software for x86?

02:27:34   What if I use some of that open source software for x86

02:27:36   in my apps?

02:27:37   And I need to-- like Lame in your library,

02:27:39   how do I get that to build and everything?

02:27:41   Apple itself is helping out on a bunch of open source projects

02:27:46   by helping those projects figure out

02:27:47   how to get their thing to build for ARM on Mac OS.

02:27:51   That's always the tricky bit about this.

02:27:54   When the Mac went Intel, it's like, oh, well,

02:27:57   they'll have access to all this software

02:27:58   because everyone runs Linux on Intel,

02:28:01   and so I'll just be able to take any Linux open source project

02:28:03   and build it for the Mac.

02:28:05   It's like, no.

02:28:06   It's a different compiler, different tool chain,

02:28:08   different operating system.

02:28:09   People had to do work to get insert name

02:28:12   of your favorite open source thing to build on Intel Macs.

02:28:16   They will have to do that same work to get it to build on ARM

02:28:19   Macs.

02:28:19   Just because Linux was running on Intel for years and years

02:28:22   before the Mac transition didn't really

02:28:24   make it that much easier, except for if there

02:28:26   was CPU-specific code.

02:28:29   But honestly, most open source stuff

02:28:30   doesn't have CPU-specific code.

02:28:31   And even stuff that does, like FFmpeg

02:28:33   that may have SSE instructions, there

02:28:35   are tools that will translate from SSE or MMX

02:28:39   or whatever the hell the things are called.

02:28:41   There's some other acronym I forget in the Intel--

02:28:43   AVX.

02:28:44   Yeah, AVX.

02:28:46   They will translate from that to NEON or whatever the ARM SIMD

02:28:51   engine thing is.

02:28:52   Someone just needs to do the work to sort of hook

02:28:55   all that stuff up.

02:28:55   And so changing the source code, changing the make files,

02:28:58   changing the compiler flags, all that good stuff,

02:29:00   Apple is helping with that by having their engineers spend

02:29:03   time on what they probably know from their experience

02:29:06   with the App Store are the most frequently integrated open

02:29:09   source projects.

02:29:10   They've had a big slide with a bunch of them

02:29:12   up that said like Blender, Boost, Nginx, FFmpeg, Electron,

02:29:17   CMake, OpenCV, Node, Redis.

02:29:21   You can look at the slide.

02:29:22   And then I think at one point they

02:29:23   highlighted certain ones are the ones that actually helped with.

02:29:26   So this is like their to-do list.

02:29:28   And then there are some things that it actually

02:29:29   started helping with.

02:29:30   But all this makes me hopeful that, yeah, there'll

02:29:34   be a bumpy transition.

02:29:35   But by the time this two years is out,

02:29:37   I will be able to build all the same stuff that

02:29:40   have been built on my Mac.

02:29:41   Right now I have built and installed my Mac.

02:29:42   I compiled Perl from source and installed it.

02:29:44   I compiled MySQL from source and installed it.

02:29:47   I compiled Postgres from source and installed it.

02:29:50   This is what I do, compile from source, whatever.

02:29:52   The fact that I can do that is because

02:29:54   of during the transition someone made sure

02:29:57   that all this stuff built on Intel-based Macs.

02:30:00   I hope someone, and someone maybe Apple,

02:30:02   does all the same stuff for the ARM transition.

02:30:04   If not, it's going to be sad because I don't

02:30:06   want to run Linux and virtualization

02:30:08   to get all my Unix-y stuff.

02:30:10   Speaking of that, as far as I can tell,

02:30:12   all the Unix-y stuff is still the same.

02:30:13   Mac OS is still Mac OS.

02:30:15   It's got the terminal.

02:30:16   It's got the shell.

02:30:17   It's all the same.

02:30:19   There's no big news in that area.

02:30:21   Thank god.

02:30:23   Yeah, and I was heartened by this presentation--

02:30:25   It is a word.

02:30:25   --of all the presenters and the meta message being

02:30:28   that the Mac is still the place where you do crap,

02:30:31   like run Docker and install weird-ass crap.

02:30:33   And that's what the Mac's job is.

02:30:35   And by having demos that showed people doing that,

02:30:38   it made it clear that despite what Alan Dye may think,

02:30:41   the Mac is still definitely very different from an iPad

02:30:44   and an iPhone.

02:30:46   Yeah, it's impressive to me.

02:30:49   It seems like such an Apple move,

02:30:51   as we discussed quite a bit last episode.

02:30:53   It seems like such an Apple move to use this as a time

02:30:55   to cut the fat and to just say, well,

02:30:57   all that stuff that we've been trying to get rid of, it's dead.

02:30:59   It's very dead.

02:31:00   It's not just a little dead.

02:31:01   It's real dead.

02:31:02   And it seems that they did a very Microsoftian thing, which

02:31:07   is to say almost everywhere, they

02:31:10   didn't get rid of anything.

02:31:11   They tried their darndest to hold onto stuff, even stuff

02:31:15   like-- what is it, OpenGL, right?

02:31:17   That they've been saying--