382: Static Ad Removal


00:00:00   Okay, let's do this thing. Nothing like fixing a critical bug. Not 60 seconds before we go in the air.

00:00:07   I saw that five seconds ago. I just saw that. That was great diagnostics from the both of you. I'm very impressed.

00:00:13   Actually, I'm very annoyed right now because the headphones I'm using, the left driver started rattling today.

00:00:20   It's only resonating with certain low frequencies. So like when Casey talks, I hear a little rattle in my left ear.

00:00:26   But when I talk or when John talks, I usually don't. But when Casey gets nice and deep really close up then, I'm like, "Oh God!"

00:00:33   Hey Marco, how's it going?

00:00:35   So try to avoid your sexy radio voice next week.

00:00:38   I'll just be sure to do it like this for the whole show. How's that sound?

00:00:42   What could possibly go wrong? That'd be perfect.

00:00:44   What could go wrong?

00:00:46   I am incredibly pleasantly surprised with... maybe it's the quality of our audience.

00:00:56   So last week, we began the show with a pretty big segment about Black Lives Matter and racism and police and privilege and all the issues that are going on right now.

00:01:09   And have been going on for a while.

00:01:11   I thought we were taking a risk.

00:01:14   And we got hundreds of responses.

00:01:18   I mean, we must have heard from 500 people.

00:01:20   And of that number, I think three were even slightly argumentative.

00:01:26   Like, I wouldn't even necessarily classify them as negative.

00:01:29   Like, they were just slightly argumentative.

00:01:31   And all the rest were universally positive.

00:01:34   And so I think this both shows that our audience is awesome.

00:01:38   But also this gives me hope for just the public in general.

00:01:42   That I think it shouldn't be risky to say Black Lives Matter and to say that we have a racism problem in this country and to say that we have a police brutality problem.

00:01:52   That shouldn't be a risky thing to say.

00:01:54   But it is. And it has been.

00:01:56   But I think now it's not.

00:01:58   Now I think it has reached a critical mass of public realization and public acceptance.

00:02:05   That like, "Oh yeah, this is actually a really big problem."

00:02:08   And it's not risky to talk about it. It's not risky to say, "Oh yeah, we really have this problem."

00:02:14   Like, no. It's a real thing.

00:02:16   And that, in a weird way, gives me hope that we're making some progress on these issues.

00:02:22   And I know we have a long way to go.

00:02:24   And it's not going to be fast progress.

00:02:26   But it's not risky to talk about this anymore.

00:02:30   And that's a really good first step.

00:02:32   Yeah, I couldn't agree more.

00:02:34   I was braced for impact because whenever you put anything on the internet and you have more than ten people that look at it, you're going to get obnoxious feedback.

00:02:44   It's part of the social contract of the internet.

00:02:48   I mean, to give you some idea, saying Black Lives Matter so emphatically around all that discussion and privilege and everything last week,

00:02:55   I thought, again, I thought this was going to generate some controversy among the audience.

00:03:00   Things that have generated more controversy than this would be things like if we said, "The sky is blue."

00:03:06   Or if we said, "Apple's doing pretty well these days."

00:03:09   Anything we could possibly say generates way more argument and way more negativity than that did.

00:03:17   And so, again, I think that's amazing.

00:03:20   And I'm really pleased with that ratio of positivity that we got.

00:03:24   Yeah, I'm very excited about it.

00:03:26   And I wanted to just one quick moment thank the both of you guys, especially for speaking so eloquently about it,

00:03:33   and for our listeners for taking the time to listen to it as well.

00:03:36   And actually, our first bit of follow-up relates to that.

00:03:39   John, can you tell me why we need to recount this other than that it's a good idea to revisit this periodically?

00:03:45   I'm inlining for performance purposes.

00:03:47   We had a whole bunch of links in the last episode about the resources so you could go to learn more and do more and stuff like that.

00:03:55   And people were very nice in recommending things to add to the list.

00:04:00   In particular, a lot of people were recommending books.

00:04:02   What we had linked was a page that itself linked like 16 different books.

00:04:06   So most of the recommendations for books that we got were actually books that were already on that page.

00:04:10   So I just wanted to surface them.

00:04:12   And so we're not going to have a million notes this week.

00:04:14   I just wanted to pick out the three or four handful of books that were most recommended.

00:04:19   They will be in line in the show notes this week and not buried one link away under a page.

00:04:23   So check it out if reading is your thing and you want to learn more about these issues.

00:04:27   I plan on reading at least one, maybe two of these.

00:04:31   There's another book I'm going to read this summer.

00:04:33   But I have a couple of these on my reading list now.

00:04:36   If I have time, I hopefully will be able to add many, many more.

00:04:38   And I'm really looking forward to that.

00:04:40   John, you were making fun of me last week about doing some edits inside of a web form.

00:04:46   And Martin Bre has some thoughts about that.

00:04:49   Martin writes, "Regarding John's last remark about never editing in a text field on a web page,

00:04:54   I've also been in the same camp and trying to spread the message.

00:04:56   I did that no later than yesterday with my brother who's currently taking his exams

00:04:59   which are occurring online due to the COVID-19 measures.

00:05:02   In this particular case, that was disastrously bad advice.

00:05:05   He quickly learned about the school's anti-cheat features.

00:05:08   For some of the questions, they simply blocked pasting text.

00:05:11   And on others, they apparently check the speed at which text is entered.

00:05:14   And if that's too fast, it gets cleared.

00:05:16   And I assume you also might get flagged as a potential cheater.

00:05:18   I should have anticipated this, but I didn't, and it made my brother lose a bunch of time."

00:05:22   See, I was right all along.

00:05:24   See, I think this is one of the ways like schools, when I went through school,

00:05:29   and again, disclaimer, I'm a terrible student, et cetera.

00:05:32   But when I went through school, when I stumbled through school,

00:05:35   we didn't have much technology in the school.

00:05:39   Like, you know, I graduated from high school in 2000, from college in 2004.

00:05:43   And that was like, I never even saw anybody use a laptop in a classroom.

00:05:49   Wait, not in college?

00:05:51   No.

00:05:52   Really?

00:05:53   That happened like right after I graduated.

00:05:55   Like, it was when that whole wave came in.

00:05:57   When I got to college, most people came with a desktop computer,

00:06:00   a cheap PC desktop computer.

00:06:02   Only a few, usually the rich kids, had laptops.

00:06:06   And you'd occasionally see them with it like in the library,

00:06:09   but you would never see anybody in the classroom using a laptop.

00:06:12   And that seemed to start literally like right after I graduated.

00:06:15   Like, I graduated in 2004, and it seemed like around 2005

00:06:19   is when everybody had laptops in classrooms.

00:06:21   But I never saw one.

00:06:23   And, you know, I never took a test on a computer.

00:06:26   I never, like, I wanted to.

00:06:28   I would have loved that at the time.

00:06:30   I was dying to use computers for anything.

00:06:32   But, you know, we only had them for like the computer science class,

00:06:35   and that's about it.

00:06:36   And so I missed this entire wave of classroom technology

00:06:41   that is now ubiquitous.

00:06:42   I've never seen a smart board.

00:06:44   I don't have a great idea of even what it is.

00:06:46   Oh, they're so nice.

00:06:47   You've missed out on so much.

00:06:49   And we're the same age.

00:06:50   In fact, actually that reminds me, happy birthday to you

00:06:52   because your birthday is tomorrow.

00:06:54   And so we are effectively the same age, you and I.

00:06:57   And I didn't get to use a smart board until my second real job,

00:07:01   but they were amazing at the time.

00:07:02   Smart boards were, imagine like one of those mobile white boards

00:07:06   that you would perhaps see in like school or whatever.

00:07:09   But instead of being a traditional white board,

00:07:11   if I remember right, it was a, maybe it was a white board.

00:07:14   I don't remember. It's been so darn long.

00:07:15   But anyways, it was something like a screen projected on the white board

00:07:18   or the white board itself was a screen or something like that.

00:07:20   So the point is, it was digitizing everything you were doing.

00:07:24   So you could draw using this like fake marker,

00:07:27   and then you could select what you've drawn and move it around.

00:07:30   And as someone who loves doing like white board diagrams

00:07:34   and things of that nature, it was really convenient

00:07:36   because not only could you move the stuff around

00:07:38   when you realized, oh, I gotta shimmy something

00:07:39   in between these two boxes, but also you could just easily

00:07:42   make a PDF and send it to your coworkers or whatever.

00:07:44   Smart boards are super cool.

00:07:45   I never had that opportunity in college,

00:07:47   but they were great in the real world.

00:07:49   Sorry, I totally interrupted, but happy birthday.

00:07:51   - No, I mean, I interrupted you.

00:07:52   That's my job on the show, I guess.

00:07:53   (laughing)

00:07:55   I've never even, like, I think in all of college,

00:07:58   and like I think I had one professor

00:08:01   who gave presentations as PowerPoints.

00:08:04   Like I never had that either.

00:08:06   Like it seemed like the old school way of doing school

00:08:10   ended right as I left.

00:08:12   (laughing)

00:08:13   And now everyone's on PowerPoints using smart boards

00:08:16   or things like that, using digital test taking on computers.

00:08:19   That's all new to me.

00:08:20   And so, you know, if you look at the quality

00:08:23   of software on average, you know, up like kind of

00:08:26   near the top you have like most consumer level stuff

00:08:29   made by good companies like Apple who are pretty decent at it.

00:08:32   That's like, you know, nice usable thoughtful software.

00:08:34   And jeez, I mean, even Apple has their problems

00:08:36   in that area a lot recently, but believe me,

00:08:38   it's way better than a lot of things.

00:08:40   Then, you know, a little step down from that,

00:08:42   you have like the general world of PC hardware.

00:08:44   Like, well, you know, sometimes it's okay,

00:08:47   sometimes it's all right, you know,

00:08:48   it's not to the best standards,

00:08:49   but it's still like generally kind of usable.

00:08:52   Then kind of like down a bit you have like

00:08:55   specialty software for like certain industries,

00:08:58   like my dentist software, and that's,

00:09:01   it's getting a little bit hard to use,

00:09:03   a little bit crappy, a little bit, you know, hostile.

00:09:05   And then you take a huge step down

00:09:07   and you have enterprise software.

00:09:10   And that is a disaster.

00:09:12   It's impossible to use, it's terrible,

00:09:14   it's user hostile, it's terribly designed.

00:09:17   And then even another giant step below that,

00:09:20   you have what is usually education software.

00:09:22   (laughs)

00:09:24   Like the incentives and the factors and the,

00:09:28   you know, the costs and benefits and everything

00:09:30   are not set up at all for enterprise software

00:09:34   and especially for education software,

00:09:36   which is like enterprise software but with even less money.

00:09:39   It's not set up at all for that to be usable

00:09:41   or friendly or well designed or even remotely well maintained

00:09:45   because schools have very special needs

00:09:48   and usually no money.

00:09:50   And so it's like, and it's, you know,

00:09:53   similar enterprise software where like

00:09:54   you're making a deal with a whole district

00:09:56   or a whole government where you have to,

00:09:58   you know, you're dealing with like huge committees

00:10:00   and budgets and the public and politics

00:10:03   and all sorts of other stuff.

00:10:05   So I can't even imagine how hostile

00:10:09   a lot of the software must be in education these days.

00:10:12   I mean, we only see, we like scratch the surface

00:10:15   with just like whatever we have to use

00:10:17   because my kids in school as like, you know,

00:10:19   the parent portals of various things,

00:10:20   which are always terrible.

00:10:21   And that's like the bare minimum.

00:10:23   I can't even imagine what it's like

00:10:25   to be a student in this stuff these days.

00:10:27   - I remember, I've told pieces of this story

00:10:30   on the show before, so forgive me,

00:10:31   but when I was in college, I went to school

00:10:34   with a home built, you know, tower monstrosity,

00:10:37   which at the time was not unusual.

00:10:39   - Me too.

00:10:40   A full tower too, not even a mid tower.

00:10:42   - Yep, yep, yep, yep.

00:10:43   - 'Cause the full tower had more drive bays.

00:10:44   - Yep, and I believe I had two CD,

00:10:47   like I had a CD-ROM drive that was super fast for reads.

00:10:51   Then I had a CD-RW drive that was not that fast for reads.

00:10:54   But then what you could do is you could duplicate CDs

00:10:56   without having to like cache it on the hard drive

00:10:59   for a little while.

00:11:00   You could do a straight rip from one to the other.

00:11:01   - Well you could, but like, you know,

00:11:03   that was a risk, 'cause you, like,

00:11:05   the buffer under-arm protection on the writers

00:11:07   was never that great.

00:11:08   - No, that's true.

00:11:09   - I mean, you gotta whip out your Nero burning ROM game

00:11:11   and like, you know, rip it to an ISO first,

00:11:13   and then use Nero, you know, to burn with like

00:11:16   all the protection, try to copy all the games

00:11:18   with all their stupid protection disks and everything.

00:11:20   (laughs)

00:11:22   - God, this is a walk right down memory lane.

00:11:24   But anyways, but I think I had, what was,

00:11:26   it wasn't a zip, was it a jazz drive that was like

00:11:29   a zip drive, but higher capacity,

00:11:31   is that what I'm thinking of?

00:11:32   - Yeah, it was one gig instead of 100 megs.

00:11:34   - Yep, I had one of those, which I loved at the time,

00:11:36   even though I barely ever used it.

00:11:38   But after a couple of years, like,

00:11:40   I think it was my junior, maybe senior years,

00:11:44   I got myself a ThinkPad, which was in no small part

00:11:48   because Dad worked for IBM at the time.

00:11:49   And I remember I thought I was hot stuff,

00:11:52   and this is the part I've told on the show before,

00:11:53   because this ThinkPad was one of the first

00:11:56   that you could add a daughter card internal to the ThinkPad.

00:12:00   It had like a little door that you could unscrew and open,

00:12:04   and you could put a Cisco 802.11b wireless card

00:12:07   within the computer.

00:12:09   And so I had a wireless connection in the like

00:12:12   10 buildings on campus that were set up for wireless.

00:12:15   But I had a wireless connection without one of those

00:12:18   PCMCIA dongles hanging out the outside,

00:12:20   you remember that?

00:12:21   Where you had that like antenna hanging out

00:12:23   the outside of the machine.

00:12:25   This is around the same era as if you were really cool,

00:12:28   you would have one of those, not like slot loaded,

00:12:31   but like one of those spring ejected ethernet or modem jacks,

00:12:35   you know what I'm talking about?

00:12:36   - Those things, I'm shocked those didn't immediately

00:12:39   break on every use.

00:12:40   - Agreed, completely agreed.

00:12:41   - I believe it's called an X jack, if I remember correctly.

00:12:44   - You might be right, I don't even remember.

00:12:46   But anyways, I bring all this up because one of my,

00:12:49   oh you are right, look at that,

00:12:50   very deep good pull there, Marco, I'm impressed.

00:12:53   - I read a lot of computer magazines,

00:12:54   had a lot of ads for these things.

00:12:55   (laughing)

00:12:57   I never actually owned one.

00:12:59   - One of my favorite memories of school,

00:13:02   which is probably indicative of how poorly I did in school,

00:13:04   was when we were in a class, it was myself

00:13:07   and a couple of friends, and we all had laptops,

00:13:09   and we were using waste.

00:13:11   And nobody remembers this, but this is Justin Frankel,

00:13:15   who did Winamp.

00:13:16   When he was at AOL, he put together a peer-to-peer

00:13:19   chat app that was all super encrypted at the time.

00:13:22   Maybe it was easy to break, who knows.

00:13:23   But at the time, it was super encrypted,

00:13:25   and you could make a chat room,

00:13:26   and then have person-to-person chats.

00:13:28   And this is when AOL Instant Messenger was very much a thing,

00:13:31   but we were like, no way, man, the school might find out

00:13:34   that we're chatting during class if we use AOL,

00:13:37   so we gotta use this super encrypted waste thing.

00:13:39   And it was so stupid, but now it was a stupid kid,

00:13:42   so what are you gonna do?

00:13:43   But I remember doing that with a couple of friends

00:13:44   during class, and it was extremely enjoyable

00:13:47   having a back channel as we were supposed to be listening,

00:13:51   even though we really weren't.

00:13:53   - I love Justin Frankel, 'cause he was like,

00:13:55   I made Winamp, AOL bought Winamp in the late '90s,

00:13:59   early 2000s, because they wanted relevance,

00:14:02   and they didn't know what to do,

00:14:03   and they were old people, and they had more money than sense,

00:14:06   and had no idea what they were doing,

00:14:07   and MP3s seemed like a new thing that they could take hold of

00:14:10   and maybe do something with, so they bought Winamp.

00:14:12   And meanwhile, Justin Frankel, the developer,

00:14:14   or at least one of the developers,

00:14:15   was one of the most radical activist,

00:14:19   anti-establishment developers of the era,

00:14:22   and he just kept making and releasing things

00:14:24   that just totally undermined AOL.

00:14:26   I don't know what his deal was,

00:14:28   how he didn't just get fired,

00:14:30   I don't know, whatever the contract he had with them was,

00:14:33   was amazing, because he was able to just release stuff

00:14:36   that just constantly poked them so hard,

00:14:40   and somehow got away with it.

00:14:42   And he seemed to not care at all,

00:14:44   which I just, I love so much.

00:14:46   - Yeah, I completely agree.

00:14:47   Whatever happened to him, like recently,

00:14:49   what is he even up to?

00:14:50   - I don't know, I hope you're not some horrible person.

00:14:52   - Oh, who knows.

00:14:53   Doesn't ATP's livestream eventually boil down to Shoutcast,

00:14:58   or is that not correct at all?

00:14:59   - Oh, yes, sort of, yeah.

00:15:00   So we host this livestream on an open source app

00:15:04   called Icecast, which is basically

00:15:06   the successor to Shoutcast.

00:15:08   Shoutcast was the streaming server protocol

00:15:11   for MP3s, basically, that I'm pretty sure Justin Frankel,

00:15:16   or at least the Winamp team initially developed, I think.

00:15:20   And Icecast kind of evolved out of that,

00:15:23   and I think it has replaced it,

00:15:24   and it's better in a few ways,

00:15:25   but the basic idea is the same.

00:15:27   It's one of the many things that I love about MP3s,

00:15:29   is that the broadcast protocol is amazingly low-tech.

00:15:33   You just, I run an app on my computer, Audio Hijack,

00:15:36   that streams the MP3 bytes that we're recording here

00:15:40   to the server, and the server just repeats it back

00:15:42   to anybody who listens.

00:15:44   And the protocol is super simple.

00:15:45   It's basic text to connect, and then it shoves binary at you.

00:15:50   That's just the MP3, and MP3 decoders are super simple.

00:15:52   They just look ahead until the C11 ones in a row

00:15:54   and start decoding there, and it just works.

00:15:57   It's amazing.

00:15:58   It really, it's so, this is one of the reasons

00:16:00   I love working with MP3s so much.

00:16:02   In many ways, it's so low-tech that it makes it

00:16:05   very easy and powerful to work with.

00:16:08   - Oh, that's right.

00:16:09   Somebody in the chat put a link to Kakos.

00:16:12   I don't know if I'm pronouncing that right, but--

00:16:14   - God, I hope not.

00:16:15   (laughs)

00:16:16   - Well, yeah.

00:16:17   It's his current company, and I'd forgotten

00:16:19   that my favorite software to make animated GIFs

00:16:22   of screen recordings, what is it called now?

00:16:24   I can't remember.

00:16:25   Shoot.

00:16:26   Oh, gosh, it's gonna drive me nuts.

00:16:28   - Kleket, that's what I use.

00:16:29   - Lycecap, there you go.

00:16:31   It's like the simplest, ugliest, like clearly cross-platform

00:16:34   but does the job well screen recording software.

00:16:37   Well, anyways, that was done by Justin Frankel

00:16:40   in Kakos, I don't know how you pronounce it,

00:16:44   but anyways, it was done in some time after he left AOL.

00:16:48   - This is what I was forgetting.

00:16:49   I knew he made something that really put AOL on the side.

00:16:52   He made the Nutella file sharing network.

00:16:54   (laughs)

00:16:55   That's what he, as he was working for AOL, I'm pretty sure,

00:16:58   which was a major media conglomerate that owned

00:17:01   a lot of like, you know, music and stuff.

00:17:03   (laughs)

00:17:04   - Oh, man.

00:17:05   Yeah, so, oh man, he's the best.

00:17:08   - Anyway, what were we talking about?

00:17:10   I don't even know.

00:17:11   Oh, writing into web forms.

00:17:12   - The moral of the story is, yeah,

00:17:14   don't write on web forms, kids, unless you're in school,

00:17:16   in which case your software probably sucks.

00:17:18   - Don't try to paste into web forms

00:17:20   'cause they'll think you're cheating.

00:17:21   Yeah, my son had to take an online, an AP test online

00:17:24   and it had similar measures.

00:17:26   That was the same test where there was that story

00:17:27   where people were, at some point in the test,

00:17:29   apparently students are instructed to do something

00:17:31   on a piece of paper and then take a picture of it

00:17:33   with their phone or something or upload a picture of it.

00:17:34   I don't know.

00:17:35   Anyway, that's what they were doing

00:17:36   and a bunch of kids took pictures with their iPhone

00:17:38   and then tried to upload it, but the iPhone was taking

00:17:41   Heek pictures instead of JPEGs, so they tried to upload

00:17:44   the Heek to the website.

00:17:45   It crashed because it couldn't process them

00:17:47   and then everyone was flipping out

00:17:49   and it's under a time limit or whatever.

00:17:50   My son avoided that by dumb luck

00:17:54   because the way I had him doing the pictures

00:17:57   'cause he doesn't know how to use computers,

00:17:58   so I said, look, just take the picture on your phone

00:18:00   and then just keep photos open in the background

00:18:02   and just wait a couple seconds

00:18:03   and you should see the photo you just took on your phone

00:18:06   appear in your Photos app

00:18:07   'cause he's got the PhotoStream thing going

00:18:09   and then drag it out of the Photos app onto the desktop,

00:18:12   which is the only place that he knows exists

00:18:14   like most people, and when you drag it out of Photos

00:18:16   onto the desktop, it turns it into a JPEG

00:18:18   and so he was uploading JPEGs and not Heeks

00:18:20   even though his phone was taking Heek pictures.

00:18:22   Anyway, hopefully with all of the COVID stuff,

00:18:25   everybody's online test stuff will get better

00:18:28   and the thing trying to prevent you

00:18:30   from pasting into the form,

00:18:31   like some password fields do that too,

00:18:32   which is horrendous

00:18:33   because it defeats password managers many times,

00:18:36   but I know what they're trying to do,

00:18:38   but it's punishing people for essentially bad,

00:18:41   for good habits because if you are under time pressure

00:18:44   to write something substantial into a text field

00:18:47   as part of a test, it does make sense

00:18:50   to do it someplace else where you know it's secure

00:18:53   and then only put it into the webpage when you're ready,

00:18:56   but of course the software interprets that as,

00:18:58   oh, you must be cheating

00:18:59   because you're copying and pasting it,

00:19:00   and I suppose if you just edit the node in the DOM

00:19:02   and stick the text in, it probably won't know,

00:19:04   but again, they might accuse you of cheating

00:19:07   and it's all just very fraught,

00:19:08   so I feel like this is a cultural issue,

00:19:11   more than a technological one

00:19:12   that eventually once kids become accustomed

00:19:14   to taking these kinds of tests online,

00:19:16   they'll learn all the things that you're supposed to do

00:19:18   and not supposed to do,

00:19:19   and I guess the backup mechanism is every once in a while

00:19:23   copy and paste it out of the web text field

00:19:25   into a text file so that if the web page does crash,

00:19:28   you'll still have the text.

00:19:29   Anyway, online tests stink.

00:19:31   Boom.

00:19:33   - So when I got angry last week about my Samba SMB woes,

00:19:39   I was expecting to be the only one,

00:19:42   and if you recall, this is when

00:19:43   I haven't used my computer in a little while.

00:19:45   I go to Reach, like my Synology, for example,

00:19:47   and I see a message in Finder,

00:19:49   "The operation can't be completed

00:19:50   because the original item for," whatever,

00:19:52   "can't be found,"

00:19:53   and the only way I knew how to fix it

00:19:55   was to do a kill-all Finder

00:19:58   and then try the same thing again,

00:20:00   and it would always work pretty much immediately.

00:20:03   And I got a lot of varied feedback about this,

00:20:06   including from John, actually, after the show,

00:20:09   and one of the most, or the two most important things

00:20:12   I think I can share confidently right now

00:20:14   is that first of all, you can go to the Go menu in Finder

00:20:19   and then connect to Server,

00:20:20   which is also done by Command-K.

00:20:23   Should I mess with John and say "K Command"

00:20:25   just to really tick John off?

00:20:26   Anyway, you can use Command-K to go to this menu,

00:20:29   and then you can reconnect that way,

00:20:30   and supposedly, I haven't actually had to try this,

00:20:32   and I'll explain why in a moment,

00:20:33   but supposedly that'll let you reconnect

00:20:35   without having to kill Finder, which is excellent.

00:20:37   And then John, amongst others, had suggested,

00:20:39   "Well, how are you getting to the Synology?"

00:20:42   And to answer that question, what I was doing

00:20:44   is I was looking at locations in the sidebar of Finder,

00:20:47   and I see DiskStation, which is the thing

00:20:50   that Synology calls itself.

00:20:52   I see that in the sidebar, and I would just click that

00:20:54   and drill into the particular folder I wanted,

00:20:55   and that was that.

00:20:57   But, John, you had recommended

00:20:59   one of several different ways to get there.

00:21:02   The Synology has its own dynamic DNS system

00:21:05   where you can get yourself an Internet-visible hostname,

00:21:08   even if you're, you know, NAT-ed and so on and so forth,

00:21:10   and I could choose that.

00:21:12   But it also occurred to me that since I'm running the Piehole,

00:21:14   I have set up -- and it's very easy.

00:21:16   -It's still funny. -It's the best, isn't it?

00:21:19   Since I have set up Piehole version 5,

00:21:22   then one of the things that it allows you to do

00:21:24   is very easily, using the web interface,

00:21:27   set up DNS responses for your local network,

00:21:30   really, but just basically custom DNS responses.

00:21:33   So, for example, iMac Pro,

00:21:35   I have effectively hardwired, if you will,

00:21:38   to refer to my 192.168 address for my iMac Pro,

00:21:44   which is statically assigned via the Eero.

00:21:46   And so what I've done is,

00:21:48   instead of connecting using the sidebar in the Finder,

00:21:51   I've connected to SYN, S-Y-N, which is what I have.

00:21:54   It's like a shortcut to the Synology's static IP address

00:21:57   within my network.

00:21:59   And so far, after nearly a week,

00:22:01   I have not had a problem with doing that.

00:22:03   So it appears that something, I guess, with Bonjour

00:22:06   or something about using the locations thing in the sidebar

00:22:10   is what's hosing this all up.

00:22:12   And so if you have any other mechanism

00:22:14   by getting to your device, you know, do it by IP address,

00:22:17   do it by a fully qualified domain name,

00:22:19   whatever the case may be, you might find

00:22:21   that that will fix your problem like it did for me.

00:22:23   Also, there's a very interesting Hacker News post,

00:22:26   which is not something I say often about all this,

00:22:28   which I'll link in the show notes,

00:22:30   even though that didn't actually get me to my solution.

00:22:32   It was more what Jon said to me, amongst others.

00:22:35   But you might want to check it out,

00:22:37   because apparently this is a long-standing bug

00:22:39   and not actually a Catalina thing after all.

00:22:41   -Yeah, the suggestion that a couple of people had

00:22:43   was to do something related to IPv6.

00:22:45   Now, I forget what it was.

00:22:47   It was just telling you to, like, disable IPv6.

00:22:49   -I don't remember.

00:22:50   I didn't have to fiddle with it, though.

00:22:52   -Yeah, the Hacker News thing

00:22:54   that talks about DNS lookup and, like, the mDNS stuff,

00:22:57   it's not like regular DNS

00:22:59   in that it gets broadcast periodically,

00:23:01   and there's a TTL on the value.

00:23:03   But if the TTL expires, say,

00:23:05   because your computer was asleep,

00:23:07   apparently you can't go request it again.

00:23:09   You just have to wait for the next broadcast,

00:23:11   and during that time, your computer has no idea

00:23:13   how to connect to it at all.

00:23:15   So you have to do what I did

00:23:17   and cut all of that zero-conf,

00:23:19   Bonjour, Rendezvous stuff out of the loop

00:23:21   and just use IP addresses

00:23:23   or names that you statically map to IP addresses.

00:23:25   So there you go. Problem solved.

00:23:27   -I think so, actually.

00:23:29   I was really surprised, because I didn't think

00:23:31   I was going to get any useful feedback,

00:23:33   not because our listeners aren't awesome,

00:23:35   just because I thought it was some really weird, esoteric thing.

00:23:37   Turns out, not so much.

00:23:39   Speaking of feedback from me to me,

00:23:41   or to me from me -- I don't know, anyway --

00:23:43   I had also kind of off-the-cuff lamented

00:23:45   about my TV turning itself off,

00:23:47   and I wasn't 100% accurate

00:23:49   on what I had said the problem was.

00:23:51   And Hugo Jobling had pointed out to me via Twitter,

00:23:53   and I'm glad that you did,

00:23:55   that the issue isn't --

00:23:57   I think I had said it was automations,

00:23:59   and that wasn't strictly true.

00:24:01   The issue is that it -- I think the TV was added

00:24:03   to my goodnight scene.

00:24:05   I believe I had called it an automation last week.

00:24:07   But Hugo had pointed out that when he was talking

00:24:09   about the goodnight scene,

00:24:11   but Hugo had pointed out that when he was adding

00:24:13   his OLED TV to his home,

00:24:17   one of the screens that I guess I just plowed right through

00:24:19   and didn't look at --

00:24:21   and if so, that's on me --

00:24:23   one of the screens he has is "Suggested Scenes,"

00:24:27   and it says, "Select scenes to include this accessory in.

00:24:29   You can customize these scenes later in the Home app."

00:24:31   And sure enough, there's "Goodnight,"

00:24:33   where it says "Turn Off."

00:24:35   And I don't recall having seen this,

00:24:37   but I bet you anything that I just plowed right through it,

00:24:39   "Next, next, next, next, next, next, next, next, next, next,

00:24:41   whatever, whatever, whatever,"

00:24:43   and wasn't paying close attention, so it's all my fault.

00:24:45   We'll put a link to a picture that Hugo had provided

00:24:47   to give you a better view of what I'm talking about.

00:24:49   But I thought that was useful feedback

00:24:51   to clarify what I was talking about earlier.

00:24:53   And actually, a couple of people reached out via Twitter

00:24:55   and said, "Oh, yeah, that happened to me,

00:24:57   and I never understood why, and now I do."

00:24:59   So I'm glad I brought it up.

00:25:01   Let's see, Daniel Jalkut is telling us about PowerBox.

00:25:03   John, what's going on there?

00:25:05   -My corrections from last week.

00:25:07   PowerBox is the thing that, for security reasons,

00:25:09   presents the Open and Save panel

00:25:11   rather than your application doing it.

00:25:13   A couple notes from Daniel.

00:25:16   One is that PowerBox is now always used for Open and Save panels.

00:25:20   Gus Mueller says it used to be

00:25:22   that it was only used for Sandbox apps,

00:25:24   but in Catalina or maybe Mojave,

00:25:26   it was changed to be used for all apps.

00:25:28   So that could actually explain some of the slowness

00:25:30   because before, maybe, an app wasn't using PowerBox,

00:25:32   but now it was.

00:25:34   And the second is Daniel says that he thinks

00:25:36   the app actually owns the window but not the content.

00:25:39   So your app may actually control that window,

00:25:42   but you only get a small region

00:25:44   where you're allowed to draw into it,

00:25:46   and through XPC, the PowerBox draws into the main content of it.

00:25:49   And apps are allowed to add their own sort of accessory views.

00:25:52   So it's like you own the window,

00:25:54   and your app gets to draw in some small portion,

00:25:56   but PowerBox draws in the other portion,

00:25:58   and PowerBox is the thing that actually gives you access to the file

00:26:01   and tells you what the result of the thing was.

00:26:03   So it's very complicated, and it's not surprising

00:26:05   that something like that could potentially go wrong

00:26:07   or have some performance difficulties,

00:26:10   again, related to security checks and other things

00:26:12   that may be slow, especially the first time you try them.

00:26:15   So security's complicated.

00:26:17   It's a lot easier back in the day

00:26:19   when everything was all in one giant memory space

00:26:21   and you just put up an open, say, dialog box,

00:26:23   and you could literally not do anything else on the computer

00:26:25   until you just dismissed it.

00:26:27   - All right, and then finally for follow-up,

00:26:29   David Darcy writes and shows us some videos

00:26:32   about something absolutely fascinating

00:26:35   that I had no idea was a thing.

00:26:37   If I understand this right, on an Android phone,

00:26:40   there's an accessibility mode called live caption,

00:26:43   and so David sent us a video of the Android phone

00:26:48   playing our show and doing speech-to-text captioning

00:26:53   live as he's playing it in his podcast app.

00:26:55   At least that's how I understood it,

00:26:57   and this looks really freaking cool.

00:26:59   - Yeah, I thought it was cool.

00:27:01   It's another type of Android thing.

00:27:03   You see much more of this in Android.

00:27:05   There's no reason that iOS can't do it,

00:27:07   but in general, Apple has shied away

00:27:09   from allowing parts of the UI,

00:27:11   parts of the system that are not the app you're currently in

00:27:14   from overlaying the app that you're in.

00:27:16   Obviously, notifications can come down from the top,

00:27:18   and there's other things that can appear,

00:27:20   and the status bar can change color.

00:27:22   There are obviously ways that the operating system

00:27:24   can intrude into the space of an app,

00:27:26   but not really to this degree.

00:27:28   So this was, presumably, the operating system, Android,

00:27:30   on top of the podcast player, showing the captions, right?

00:27:33   And you might be mistaken for thinking like,

00:27:35   "Oh, that's a feature of the podcast app,"

00:27:37   but my understanding of watching this video is that it's not.

00:27:39   It is a feature of the operating system,

00:27:41   and any time audio is playing,

00:27:43   you can have this translucent overlay

00:27:45   with the things being transcribed in it,

00:27:47   which is pretty cool if you've got

00:27:49   a very fast on-device speech-to-text engine.

00:27:51   That's a great use of it.

00:27:53   Was this person-- did they also give the video

00:27:55   showing the voice control of Android,

00:27:57   or was that somebody else?

00:27:59   I don't know about that tweet.

00:28:01   It was like showing how to speak to your Android phone

00:28:04   to make it do stuff, not like you speak to Siri,

00:28:08   like, you know, "Hey, dingus," you know,

00:28:11   "Open thing," and whatever,

00:28:13   or "Remind me to do this with that," or whatever,

00:28:15   but, like, using it as kind of a verbal pointer, right?

00:28:20   So you could tell it to go to the home screen

00:28:22   to open an application, and when it opened that app,

00:28:25   like, all the controls on the screen

00:28:27   have tiny little numbers in circles next to them,

00:28:29   so you would tell it to, you know,

00:28:32   hit button number one, number five,

00:28:34   confirm, okay, like, it was kind of like speaking,

00:28:38   you know, very much like the interface

00:28:40   that the Mac has, right?

00:28:41   Do you remember that demo where they showed, like,

00:28:43   the screen was cut into regions

00:28:44   and controls had numbers on them,

00:28:45   and you could essentially navigate the screen with speech,

00:28:48   only this was on a phone.

00:28:50   I'm not sure what Apple's interface to that

00:28:52   looks like these days, because this interface

00:28:55   does require you to see the screen,

00:28:56   so it's not for people who can't see the screen well.

00:28:59   I mean, these numbers are very small,

00:29:01   so you have to have good vision,

00:29:02   but just not the ability to --

00:29:04   or the motor control to use the touch interface.

00:29:07   So, anyway, I think all this stuff

00:29:09   is especially interesting,

00:29:11   including in the context of RSI.

00:29:13   I don't know if anyone is getting RSI from their phones,

00:29:15   but I can assure you that that is actually a thing.

00:29:18   Somewhere out there is somebody

00:29:19   who's been swiping too much with their thumb,

00:29:21   and it feels a little stiff,

00:29:22   and they're trying not to think about it,

00:29:23   and they should.

00:29:25   We did want to take a moment to call out

00:29:29   three different organizations that we think

00:29:31   are probably worth your investment, interest, time, et cetera.

00:29:35   And just if you happen to have any money

00:29:39   that you can throw their way,

00:29:40   I think the three of us all believe

00:29:42   that these are worthwhile causes,

00:29:44   and they're worth checking out.

00:29:46   So we wanted to take just a brief moment

00:29:48   and highlight three of them.

00:29:49   First of all, the Equal Justice Initiative,

00:29:51   which is committed to ending --

00:29:52   and I'm pulling these mostly from their websites,

00:29:54   but I've heard from various people

00:29:56   that these are all pretty great.

00:29:57   The Equal Justice Initiative is committed

00:29:59   to ending mass incarceration

00:30:00   and excessive punishment in the United States

00:30:02   to challenging racial and economic injustice

00:30:04   and to protecting basic human rights

00:30:06   for the most vulnerable people in American society.

00:30:09   Secondly, the Black Lives Matter organization

00:30:11   is a global organization in the U.S., U.K., and Canada

00:30:14   whose mission is to eradicate white supremacy

00:30:16   and build local power to intervene in violence

00:30:18   inflicted on black communities by the state and vigilantes.

00:30:21   By combating and counteracting acts of violence,

00:30:23   creating space for black imagination and innovation,

00:30:25   and centering black joy, we are winning --

00:30:27   well, not "we," but they are winning

00:30:29   immediate improvements in our lives.

00:30:31   But it'll be "we" if you donate, which is excellent.

00:30:33   And then finally, Black Lives Code

00:30:35   is one of the organizations that the, I believe,

00:30:38   now-defunct AppCamp for Girls

00:30:40   has decided to sponsor or at least elevate,

00:30:44   and I know the AppCamp people, and they're all really great.

00:30:47   So Black Girls Code is devoted to showing the world

00:30:50   that black girls can code and do so much more.

00:30:52   By reaching out to the community through workshops

00:30:54   and after-school programs, Black Girls Code

00:30:56   introduces computer coding lessons to young girls

00:30:58   from underrepresented communities in programming languages

00:31:00   such as Scratch or Ruby on Rails.

00:31:02   If you happen to have a few extra bucks

00:31:04   to throw any of the three organizations

00:31:07   that we've just called out,

00:31:09   I think that would be really excellent,

00:31:11   and certainly the three of us would appreciate it.

00:31:13   But we just wanted to call that out.

00:31:15   And, yeah, I don't know what our agenda is

00:31:17   for talking about these sort of social issues

00:31:19   and stuff in the future,

00:31:21   but expect that, as with last week,

00:31:24   we'll talk about it here and there,

00:31:26   and then we won't, and then we will, and then we won't,

00:31:28   and we'll just do what we think is best.

00:31:30   - Yeah, we had some sponsorship openings this week,

00:31:32   and we figured, you know, what better thing to do with them

00:31:34   than try to promote some of these great causes.

00:31:36   - Exactly.

00:31:37   (jazzy music)

00:31:40   Marco, it's your birthday tomorrow.

00:31:42   Are there any birthday presents you would like by chance?

00:31:45   - Oh, I don't know.

00:31:47   My wife's making me some delicious fruit tarts,

00:31:49   and I'm gonna have some beer that I like,

00:31:50   and I think that'll be a good day.

00:31:52   - That sounds like a good day.

00:31:53   - Additionally, if you wanna get me an extra birthday present

00:31:55   after you've already given to the good causes

00:31:57   that are way better than this,

00:31:58   'cause they need it way more than we do,

00:32:01   we are going to launch a membership program,

00:32:04   as of right now.

00:32:05   So if you go to ATP.fm/join,

00:32:07   you can join as a member right now.

00:32:10   We've been doing this show for seven years so far,

00:32:13   something like that, a little over seven years.

00:32:16   And we are not gonna stop anytime soon.

00:32:18   We all love doing this show,

00:32:20   and as long as all of you out there keep listening,

00:32:23   we wanna keep making this show.

00:32:25   And the format and style of this show

00:32:28   were established really fast.

00:32:30   Within the first few episodes,

00:32:31   we pretty much established the format

00:32:32   that we've really used, almost unchanged, for seven years.

00:32:37   We have the cold open pre-show,

00:32:39   we have the dial-up sound, follow-up, main topics,

00:32:42   ask ATP if we have it that week,

00:32:43   ending theme, and the after show.

00:32:45   It's a very simple formula.

00:32:46   We've been doing it for a very long time.

00:32:48   - And yet you too still can't follow it, can you?

00:32:50   (laughing)

00:32:52   - Part of the formula is not following the formula.

00:32:56   - It's okay, great.

00:32:58   - And we also very early on established

00:33:00   the business model of the show,

00:33:01   and it hasn't changed really in the entire seven years.

00:33:03   The show is free, it's available everywhere,

00:33:05   it's not exclusive to anybody,

00:33:07   and it's funded, as so many podcasts are, by sponsorships.

00:33:10   We read and ad read three times per episode roughly.

00:33:14   Each read is about two minutes long,

00:33:15   so you get about six minutes of ads in our show

00:33:17   that is usually almost two hours long.

00:33:19   And I think that's one of the best content to ads ratios

00:33:22   of anything I listen to that has ads.

00:33:24   And this all has worked very well,

00:33:27   and continues to work very well for seven years,

00:33:30   and will continue well into the future, we hope.

00:33:32   And unless the sponsorship changes a lot,

00:33:35   and if people stop buying podcast ads,

00:33:38   other than something dramatic like that,

00:33:41   we have no intention of changing any of these basics

00:33:43   for the foreseeable future.

00:33:45   And if you all will forgive me for a moment

00:33:48   of a total lack of modesty, I think we make a great show.

00:33:53   We might make the best tech podcast in the world.

00:33:57   You will never hear me say this any other time,

00:34:00   'cause it's really hard for me to say this

00:34:02   without freaking out about the lack of modesty here.

00:34:04   But we take a lot of pride in what we do here.

00:34:06   We put a lot of work into it,

00:34:08   and I think we're good at it, and I'm damn proud of it.

00:34:11   So let's get back to the money part for a minute.

00:34:14   We already make good money from this show.

00:34:17   None of us are hurting financially.

00:34:20   The vast majority of that money, though,

00:34:22   only comes from one source.

00:34:24   It comes from those ads.

00:34:26   And we did just finish a merchandise sale,

00:34:28   which we do a couple times a year.

00:34:29   Merchandise is kind of a fun side project.

00:34:31   It doesn't make that much money to us,

00:34:33   because it's so expensive to produce physical items

00:34:35   and ship them around the world and everything.

00:34:37   We make a few bucks off of each thing,

00:34:39   but it's more for kind of fun stuff

00:34:41   to give our fans something cool to wear if they want to,

00:34:43   and make some side income from this show.

00:34:45   But the vast majority of the money

00:34:47   comes from those six minutes of ads

00:34:49   that you hear in each episode.

00:34:51   Our ads usually sell well,

00:34:54   because we have a really good audience for selling ads.

00:34:57   You all out there, we have a pretty good idea

00:34:59   that you're probably mostly a bunch of nerds like us,

00:35:02   and we can sell you things like hosting companies

00:35:06   and domain recognition, and we can sell you

00:35:08   companies and domain registration and things like that,

00:35:10   and it's not that hard to sell ads to our audience, right?

00:35:13   And that's why you hear so many of the same companies

00:35:15   advertising over and over again,

00:35:16   because our ads work well for them.

00:35:18   And it's great for us.

00:35:19   We like them too, because they're good companies

00:35:21   selling good stuff, and we can get paid good money,

00:35:25   but also sleep at night, knowing that we're not

00:35:27   annoying people or ripping you off or making a bad show.

00:35:31   But podcast ads are a bit tricky as a business model.

00:35:36   They are mostly good, but over time,

00:35:39   they do take an increasingly higher amount of work to sell

00:35:43   and to get paid for.

00:35:45   As a lot of that ad buying has shifted,

00:35:47   it used to be that the companies who bought the ads

00:35:50   would come directly to us and deal with us,

00:35:52   and we would send them an invoice

00:35:53   and they would pay it and whatever.

00:35:55   Increasingly, many of the podcast advertisers

00:35:57   that you hear on most shows are buying through ad agencies,

00:36:01   and the ad agencies are also consolidating

00:36:03   and getting bigger and getting acquired and everything.

00:36:05   And so when you're dealing with ad agencies,

00:36:07   it just adds more work to the process.

00:36:09   It adds more cost all around.

00:36:11   We can't always sell every slot.

00:36:13   We can't always sell the ads at the prices that we want.

00:36:17   We often don't get paid for months,

00:36:20   and sometimes we don't get paid for a sponsor at all.

00:36:23   Like if they go out of business, if they go bankrupt,

00:36:25   or they just don't want to pay anybody any forever again.

00:36:27   We do get stiffed on an occasional basis.

00:36:31   And the ad market is also volatile.

00:36:34   It's kind of like the real estate market.

00:36:36   Real estate are like, oh, it's always going to go up.

00:36:38   People always assume the ad market will do well

00:36:40   because it usually does until it doesn't.

00:36:44   And whenever there's a big economic disturbance

00:36:47   like there was with the quarantine,

00:36:49   everybody cuts back on their ad spending immediately,

00:36:52   and it's really hard to sell additional ads.

00:36:55   It's also really hard every January or February or August

00:36:58   or the fifth week in a five-week month.

00:37:00   Like that's just how podcast ads have ups and downs,

00:37:03   and you're very much tied to the economy

00:37:05   or like these random calendar things about budgeting.

00:37:09   So in this quarantine period,

00:37:11   we've had, this was terrible for podcast ad sales.

00:37:14   Some shows were hit worse than others.

00:37:16   We were hit pretty bad.

00:37:17   That's why you've heard so many episodes recently

00:37:19   that have had only like one or two sponsors,

00:37:21   including this one,

00:37:22   instead of the usual three sponsors that we have.

00:37:24   Now, I don't want to paint a picture

00:37:26   that we're like dying here.

00:37:27   The rest of the summer is looking a lot better

00:37:29   for the ad sales, and again, we make good money,

00:37:31   and we'll be fine no matter what you do.

00:37:33   But this was a wake-up call to us

00:37:36   that we wanted some diversification.

00:37:38   You know, we don't want this entire show

00:37:41   that we love so much

00:37:42   to be dependent on the whims of the ad market

00:37:44   when we have this perfectly good audience,

00:37:46   you all sitting out there right now,

00:37:48   many of whom have told us

00:37:50   that you'd be happy to support us directly

00:37:52   if Flexion option became available.

00:37:53   So we are now launching a membership program.

00:37:57   We don't expect this to replace the ads anytime soon

00:38:00   or probably ever.

00:38:02   Honestly, I think we'd be shocked

00:38:03   if we got more than a few percent of the audience

00:38:05   to sign up for it.

00:38:06   And we also don't want to take anything away

00:38:10   from what this show has always been for everyone.

00:38:12   So we don't want to take any existing part of the show

00:38:15   and put it behind a paywall or anything like that.

00:38:17   You know, and maybe in the future,

00:38:19   if ad sales totally tank

00:38:20   and we have to make a bigger push for membership,

00:38:23   maybe we'll have to do stuff like that,

00:38:24   but that probably won't happen.

00:38:26   If you want to support us by becoming a member,

00:38:28   we have one plan, which we'll talk to in a minute.

00:38:30   It's eight bucks a month.

00:38:32   For that, you get your own private RSS feed

00:38:35   and you get a sponsor-free version of the show.

00:38:38   And you can put that feed in whatever podcast app you want.

00:38:40   We made a nice, slick integration,

00:38:42   heavily inspired by Stretecorion Dithering.

00:38:44   Thanks, guys.

00:38:45   We made a nice, slick thing that you can just do it

00:38:49   with a couple of clicks on most apps.

00:38:51   I went back, the last four episodes

00:38:53   have sponsor-free versions in those feeds,

00:38:55   and then all future episodes ongoing

00:38:57   will have sponsor-free versions.

00:38:59   And for now, that's it.

00:39:01   You have the ad-free version of the show,

00:39:02   eight bucks a month.

00:39:04   And I gotta say, I subscribe to a few Patreons

00:39:07   for ad-free podcasts, and I love it.

00:39:10   It's a completely unnecessary luxury.

00:39:13   As I said, we have six minutes of ads a week,

00:39:15   but it's a luxury.

00:39:17   Like most luxuries, it's kind of nice

00:39:19   if you can afford it and if you care about that kind of thing.

00:39:22   We hope to add more stuff later,

00:39:24   maybe some occasional member-exclusive bonus content

00:39:28   that wouldn't fit or make sense

00:39:30   to be a part of this regular show.

00:39:32   And we'd also love to hear your ideas

00:39:34   on what else you would like to see as member benefits.

00:39:36   But for the most part, what we're selling is

00:39:38   supporting us, and you get a sponsor-free feed of the show.

00:39:41   Same show, just without sponsors.

00:39:43   So if you wanna spend eight bucks a month for that,

00:39:46   that's great.

00:39:47   If you don't wanna spend eight bucks a month for that,

00:39:49   that's totally fine, too.

00:39:51   Simply by listening to our show

00:39:53   and hearing the ads in the regular version,

00:39:55   that supports us perfectly well.

00:39:57   So we thank you for that, that's enough.

00:39:59   If you wanna support us differently

00:40:01   by becoming a member for eight bucks a month,

00:40:03   we'd be very thankful for that.

00:40:05   So there it is, thank you for that.

00:40:07   We have a lot more we can talk about, actually,

00:40:09   but the implementation of this,

00:40:11   some of the decision-making and why,

00:40:13   the stack and everything.

00:40:14   - I think we should dig into that.

00:40:16   - We can start by saying that

00:40:18   I've already seen suggestions go by in the chat.

00:40:21   As you might imagine,

00:40:23   when we discussed this amongst the three of us,

00:40:25   we had all sorts of ideas.

00:40:27   We entertained almost everything.

00:40:28   I'm not sure which ones we want to discuss

00:40:30   that we entertain, there's a couple of them

00:40:32   that you might be amused by,

00:40:34   but we're starting intentionally very simple.

00:40:37   And we don't know how this is gonna go.

00:40:39   There's one price, there's one offering,

00:40:41   it's an ad-free show, it's straightforward,

00:40:43   it's easy to understand,

00:40:44   we're not taking anything away from anybody,

00:40:46   nothing is moving behind a paywall.

00:40:48   If you don't pay, you get exactly the same show

00:40:50   you've always gotten.

00:40:51   But we've entertained all possibilities.

00:40:53   And so I think it's important to recognize

00:40:55   that we are intentionally starting simple,

00:40:57   and we're just gonna learn from how it goes.

00:40:59   If nobody signs up,

00:41:00   then maybe we've made the wrong offering, right?

00:41:02   And so we'll figure it out from here.

00:41:05   But hopefully what we're providing

00:41:08   is easy to understand, straightforward,

00:41:10   and something that at least a few people

00:41:12   will be interested in doing.

00:41:14   - Yeah, I think we should also talk about

00:41:16   a little bit of the machinations with regard to cost,

00:41:19   because I think that even though I am very comfortable

00:41:24   and proud even of where we've landed,

00:41:26   a little sliver of me is disappointed

00:41:28   that we didn't decide to go with

00:41:30   what we were originally thinking.

00:41:32   - It was really funny.

00:41:33   - It was really funny,

00:41:34   but I think it would have come across obnoxious,

00:41:36   which is why we shelved it.

00:41:37   But I think it's one of those things where

00:41:39   it's a bad joke, but I can't help but telling it anyway.

00:41:42   (laughing)

00:41:43   - You're totally that dad who tells the bad joke anyway.

00:41:46   - I am, I am.

00:41:47   - I don't think it's a bad joke.

00:41:48   I was heavily in favor of this plan.

00:41:50   Go ahead, Casey, it was your idea.

00:41:51   - No, I thought it was Marco's idea.

00:41:53   - It might have actually been Tiff's idea.

00:41:56   Tiff and I derived it one night.

00:41:58   - Oh yeah, that's right, it was Tiff.

00:41:59   Marco came and told us that Tiff suggested it.

00:42:01   - That's right, yes, he does.

00:42:02   But anyways, Marco and Tiff had come up with the idea

00:42:06   of doing RAM plans.

00:42:08   So you could do eight bucks a month,

00:42:10   16 bucks a month, 32 bucks a month, or 64 bucks a month.

00:42:14   Now, of course, what would you be getting

00:42:16   for all of those higher tiered plans?

00:42:17   The same exact crap you're getting for the eight month plan.

00:42:20   (laughing)

00:42:21   You get nothing.

00:42:22   - And we like it 'cause it's a computery,

00:42:24   like the pricing at powers of two and stuff like that.

00:42:27   But practically speaking, a lot of things

00:42:29   that are like Patreons work like that,

00:42:32   where there are tiers and you get,

00:42:34   if you pay more, you get some separate thing or whatever.

00:42:37   And especially for an initial offering,

00:42:39   even though the joke about the RAM things was good,

00:42:42   it just seemed like maybe too confusing

00:42:45   and just let's just start off simple

00:42:46   and see how it goes.

00:42:47   If there are people out there who are super angry

00:42:50   that they're not able to give us more money per month,

00:42:52   let us know and we'll consider higher tiers.

00:42:54   (laughing)

00:42:55   - I don't expect a lot of email on that.

00:42:57   - Yeah, exactly, right.

00:42:58   And my thing is like, you should have an other field

00:43:01   where people can just type in the amount they wanna pay.

00:43:04   'Cause who knows?

00:43:05   I've always been waiting for that one reclusive billionaire

00:43:08   who listens to the show, it's like, all right,

00:43:10   10 grand a month, here you go.

00:43:11   Anyway.

00:43:12   - I love, K Ham in the chat says,

00:43:14   come on, this is an Apple podcast, we know it's 8/32/64.

00:43:18   (laughing)

00:43:19   - Yeah, that's probably true.

00:43:21   We're gonna skip over the size

00:43:22   that everyone else would wanna do, yeah.

00:43:23   And we have all sorts of ideas

00:43:24   of other things that we could give,

00:43:25   but in the beginning, we don't, you know,

00:43:28   we don't wanna overwhelm, all right?

00:43:30   So Marco mentioned member specific content.

00:43:33   I always said like, eventually,

00:43:34   some day, years down the line,

00:43:36   we should eventually get me to play Destiny with those two,

00:43:39   but I don't know if they're actually gonna wanna do that.

00:43:41   And that's not a podcast either,

00:43:42   so I don't even know how that would work.

00:43:43   But that's like stretch goal, five years in the future,

00:43:46   potentially, if this is still a thing that we're doing.

00:43:50   But in the short term, most of the obvious ideas

00:43:54   you can think of, we've also been entertaining

00:43:55   and may actually arrive,

00:43:57   but we don't know what those are going to be now,

00:43:59   so this is what we've got to start with.

00:44:01   - Yeah, and ultimately, like, you know,

00:44:04   we know, if you go, you know,

00:44:07   apples to apples comparison,

00:44:08   and like, well, for eight bucks a month,

00:44:10   I could get Disney+ or something,

00:44:11   like, yeah, we know.

00:44:13   But it's closer to like, if you look at, you know,

00:44:16   like, Patreons, basically, are the real good comparison here.

00:44:20   Like, many podcasts and stuff that we like have Patreons.

00:44:23   They usually have tiers at five or $10 a month,

00:44:27   and that's like what I usually pay.

00:44:29   Like, the average of what I pay for the ones I support

00:44:31   is usually $10 a month.

00:44:33   And really, like, you know,

00:44:35   when we were talking about the multiple tiers,

00:44:36   we didn't really want to have some kind of like,

00:44:40   doodads that we give you, or kind of vague promises,

00:44:44   or like, DVD extras, you know, it's like,

00:44:47   a lot of Patreons and Kickstarters and everything,

00:44:50   they think they have to offer stuff to people

00:44:52   to get them to pay for the higher tiers.

00:44:54   But as a supporter, you often just,

00:44:56   you just want to support them.

00:44:57   You don't want their stuff, or you don't want,

00:44:59   you're not ever gonna like, you know,

00:45:00   get their like, free email greeting,

00:45:03   or you know, whatever the thing is.

00:45:05   And then, meanwhile, for the creators,

00:45:06   those things are massively time consuming

00:45:08   and burdensome and often costly to make.

00:45:11   And so, I, as a frequent supporter of this kind of stuff,

00:45:15   I don't want any of that stuff.

00:45:17   Let me pay you the five or 10 bucks a month for your show

00:45:20   and get the ad free feed if you have one.

00:45:21   And that's great, that's all I want.

00:45:23   Like, 'cause the whole point is,

00:45:24   you're paying to support something,

00:45:26   not to buy a low priced product, right?

00:45:29   And so we wanted to avoid anything like that,

00:45:32   because not only is it generally not worth it for creators

00:45:35   and it wouldn't be worth it for us,

00:45:36   but that's not why we want your money.

00:45:39   Like, we don't want you to buy something expecting like,

00:45:43   you know, massive bonus stuff or special access to us,

00:45:47   or you know, stuff like that,

00:45:48   that's kinda hard for creators to actually really give.

00:45:51   We just, if you wanna pay us for an ad free feed

00:45:54   and for extra support if you want to, that's great.

00:45:57   If you don't want to, that's totally cool.

00:45:59   Again, we understand, if you just listen to our show

00:46:01   and hear the ads, you are already supporting us.

00:46:04   You can even skip them sometimes,

00:46:05   just don't tell anybody, it's fine.

00:46:07   Everyone does it, I do it, it's fine.

00:46:09   Like, you are already supporting us by doing that.

00:46:11   So if you wanna support us more,

00:46:12   come be a member, ATP.fm/join.

00:46:16   - There's some interesting tech details of this.

00:46:18   My favorite one, before we start talking about

00:46:20   like the website and everything,

00:46:22   hopefully everyone in the chat has already signed up

00:46:23   so you already know what the website's like, but.

00:46:26   - We already have 71 members.

00:46:27   - Hooray!

00:46:28   - The interesting, the most interesting tech bit here

00:46:32   is to streamline the production of the ad free feed,

00:46:37   Marco, lover of dynamic ad insertion,

00:46:40   has made the reverse of that, which is static ad removal.

00:46:45   (laughing)

00:46:46   The forecast tool that he uses to chapterize the shows

00:46:49   now has a feature where it can export the ad free version.

00:46:52   I don't know exactly how this works, Marco,

00:46:53   you wanna explain it?

00:46:54   - Yeah, sure.

00:46:55   So basically, this is one of the areas,

00:46:59   sorry, this is gonna be a Marco heavy episode.

00:47:01   If the haters out there, I'm sorry,

00:47:02   you might as well stop now.

00:47:04   This is one of the areas where like owning the entire stack

00:47:07   of production tools and like,

00:47:09   this is strategically very good for me.

00:47:11   Back when I made forecast, I believe I said on the show,

00:47:16   like one of the reasons why I wanted to just get it out there

00:47:21   for free and not try to charge like, you know,

00:47:23   30 or 50 bucks for it and make nobody buy it

00:47:25   is because it had value to me as somebody

00:47:29   in the podcasting space, as both a podcaster

00:47:32   and the owner of Overcast, it had value to me

00:47:35   to have some kind of control over a podcast production tool.

00:47:39   'Cause then if I wanted to add features to podcast

00:47:42   at the production side, I had a place to do that.

00:47:45   And then I can do things like add corresponding features

00:47:47   to Overcast, you know, give MP3s a certain ability,

00:47:50   like the idea of, I have my floating chapters

00:47:52   where the chapter spec has a provision

00:47:55   where you can have a chapter that does not get listed

00:47:58   in the list of chapters, but just appears

00:48:00   at a certain time range.

00:48:02   Nothing actually reads or writes those,

00:48:04   but the provision was there in the spec,

00:48:06   so I said, hey, I'll implement that.

00:48:08   So I implemented it in forecast and in Overcast.

00:48:10   So now if you have a chapter podcast

00:48:13   and you want to display a chapter that merely shows up

00:48:16   at a certain time range but is not listed

00:48:18   in the table of contents, you can do that and it works.

00:48:21   So you know, there is value to kind of owning

00:48:23   the whole stack here.

00:48:24   In this case, first we built a CMS.

00:48:28   This is one of the big reasons why I built the CMS

00:48:30   when we did it.

00:48:31   - Oh, stop, stop right there.

00:48:32   We did not build a CMS.

00:48:34   I would love to take credit for this,

00:48:36   but two of us complained and moaned about a handful

00:48:38   of design decisions and one of us actually did all the work.

00:48:41   - Complained?

00:48:42   That's important user feedback.

00:48:44   - Yes, I would say two of you were design consultants.

00:48:48   - Fair enough, fair enough.

00:48:49   - Anyway, so first I built a CMS.

00:48:53   We were wanting to do it for a while.

00:48:55   As we said, things like controlling the RSS feed

00:48:57   and how everything works and everything,

00:48:59   we wanted to build it exactly for our needs

00:49:02   in part to support a membership program.

00:49:05   The way I build things is for the long term

00:49:09   and with as much under my control as possible.

00:49:12   So this is things like minimizing external services

00:49:16   is a big part of this.

00:49:18   When a service is done,

00:49:20   when a service is necessary,

00:49:23   I like to choose conservative, stable, long term services,

00:49:28   companies that have been there a long time,

00:49:30   and I like to choose low level building blocks

00:49:34   instead of high level all in one solutions.

00:49:38   What I want to do is own as much of the customer interaction

00:49:42   and the customer billing relationship as possible.

00:49:45   For example, rather than going to Patreon or Memberful,

00:49:49   we built a site on Linode and we host our files on Libsyn

00:49:54   and I built the whole membership payment program on Stripe.

00:49:59   Building a hosting platform or a podcast CDN

00:50:03   and stats service or a payment processor,

00:50:06   which is what those three companies are respectively,

00:50:08   that's no small feat.

00:50:10   It's not worth doing for almost anybody ever.

00:50:12   So that made sense to Outsource.

00:50:14   Those are major problems that are really hard to do.

00:50:18   I'm not going to become my own credit card processor.

00:50:21   But I also don't want to go to somebody like Patreon

00:50:26   where they have this whole big platform

00:50:28   and I would simply be like,

00:50:30   we'd be like one tiny member of it

00:50:33   and we would be at the whims of whatever they decide to do.

00:50:36   Every company seems good for a while if they're good,

00:50:40   but then you don't know what's going to happen

00:50:42   in the future down the road.

00:50:43   Why have a dependency if you don't need it?

00:50:46   So we built the CMS as these low-level building blocks

00:50:50   that you, the customer, either will never see

00:50:53   or might only notice, you'll see a Stripe logo

00:50:56   in the footer of the payment page or something,

00:50:59   but that's it.

00:51:00   These aren't hitting you over the head.

00:51:02   You're not going to Patreon to sign up for us.

00:51:04   You're going to our site

00:51:05   and you're signing up directly on our site.

00:51:06   And we control all that.

00:51:08   We don't have to worry.

00:51:09   If we're going to go to some new podcast subscription

00:51:12   membership management service,

00:51:13   what if they go out of business next year?

00:51:15   We don't have to worry about that kind of stuff.

00:51:17   Stripe is not going anywhere.

00:51:18   Libsyn has been around for like 15, 20 years.

00:51:21   They're not going anywhere either.

00:51:22   Linode is not going anywhere.

00:51:23   These are solid, long-term, low-level building blocks

00:51:26   and that's the way I like to build things.

00:51:28   So that's the CMS part.

00:51:30   And there's lots of interesting stuff about the CMS,

00:51:32   but we'll get to that some other time maybe.

00:51:34   I don't know.

00:51:35   So as John mentioned, here I'm signing myself up

00:51:40   for every week producing two copies of the show,

00:51:43   one with the ads and one without.

00:51:45   What the entire rest of the podcast industry does now

00:51:48   is called dynamic ad insertion.

00:51:50   We've talked about it here and there before.

00:51:51   This is one of the reasons why you can occasionally,

00:51:53   if you're listening to one of the major shows

00:51:55   from a major producer,

00:51:56   you will often hear a recent ad in an old show

00:52:00   or you will hear a local ad for some local car dealership

00:52:04   or some event that's happening in your town,

00:52:06   which sounds kind of creepy the first time you hear it.

00:52:09   And the reason why is they're doing dynamic ad insertion

00:52:11   where they have their MP3 files of the show

00:52:13   and they mark certain timestamps to insert ads at.

00:52:16   And on download, they look at your IP address,

00:52:19   they either do a direct geolocation lookup

00:52:22   and figure out roughly where you are

00:52:24   or they do something even creepier

00:52:26   where they look it up with one of those data broker services

00:52:28   and find out exactly who you are

00:52:30   and then they inject ads that are relevant to you

00:52:33   directly into the show at your download.

00:52:36   As I mentioned earlier,

00:52:37   the MP3 file format is really like hackable.

00:52:40   You can basically splice MP3s freely

00:52:43   and as long as you do it remotely competently,

00:52:46   you can be really sloppy, you can make a lot of mistakes,

00:52:49   as long as you do it remotely competently,

00:52:51   it'll work, it'll play.

00:52:52   And so that's what a lot of big publishers do now.

00:52:55   They dynamically insert ads and anyway,

00:52:59   I actually do kind of the opposite now.

00:53:03   As John said, I am statically deleting ads automatically

00:53:06   where forecast, the tool that I use to encode

00:53:10   the chapter markers and the MP3, which I write,

00:53:13   already had the concept of sponsor chapters.

00:53:17   I like recognizing sponsored chapters by the prefix

00:53:19   and you can edit what the prefix is.

00:53:21   By default, it's what we use on this show, sponsor colon.

00:53:24   And so it recognizes those and it highlights them

00:53:26   in the table view so you can easily see them

00:53:28   and that way, I always check to make sure,

00:53:30   like, are they actually, you know,

00:53:32   do they have the right durations roughly

00:53:33   and then I can make sure they all have links

00:53:35   and everything.

00:53:36   And so it already had this mechanism of recognizing sponsors.

00:53:38   It also had a feature called export air checks

00:53:40   where people who buy ads, a lot of times,

00:53:43   they will want to hear a copy of whatever ad you read

00:53:47   before they pay you.

00:53:49   They're like, give us an air check,

00:53:50   which is just a fancy industry term for the copy of the ad

00:53:53   as you read it from the show.

00:53:54   And so I have a feature in forecast.

00:53:56   I never wanted to do this.

00:53:58   So I have a feature in forecast that says

00:53:59   export sponsor air checks.

00:54:01   And any chapter that has the sponsor prefix that you've set,

00:54:06   it will just export those as separate files

00:54:08   that include only that plus or minus,

00:54:09   or plus, like, you know, a couple seconds on either side,

00:54:11   et cetera.

00:54:13   So I already had MP3 splicing, sponsor recognition,

00:54:17   chapter markers, and I'm already making the show with chapters.

00:54:21   So I built in a feature into forecast

00:54:25   to automate the creation of the sponsor-free versions

00:54:28   by simply having a menu item that will export

00:54:31   a copy of the same file without the sponsor chapters in it.

00:54:35   And as you hear the show,

00:54:36   the way the sponsor-free version sounds,

00:54:38   it's exactly the same show.

00:54:39   The way it sounds is when you hear...

00:54:42   [ Music plays ]

00:54:43   ...and then you hear the sponsor here,

00:54:45   and then you hear the sponsor close music.

00:54:47   [ Music plays ]

00:54:50   Basically, the way the ad-free version works

00:54:52   is you only hear the ad close music,

00:54:55   and then it goes to the next topic.

00:54:56   So you don't hear the ad open or the ad.

00:54:58   You hear just, you know, previous topic...

00:55:00   [ Music plays ]

00:55:04   ...and then the next topic.

00:55:05   To do this in forecast,

00:55:07   I had to first figure out Mac OS app notarization

00:55:11   because the last forecast update predates Catalina.

00:55:14   I also then had to add support for dark mode

00:55:17   because the last update also predated Mojave.

00:55:19   It was in 2018.

00:55:20   -Oh, wow. That's great.

00:55:21   -But the main reason I had to update the forecast app

00:55:23   besides adding this feature was I had to improve the precision

00:55:27   of the chapter markers because it turned out that the way I was...

00:55:30   What Forecast does to achieve its amazing speed

00:55:32   and make your fans spin so fast

00:55:34   is it splits up the file into however many cores you have.

00:55:39   So on my iMac, I have 10 cores.

00:55:41   It's 20 virtual hyper-threading cores.

00:55:42   So it splits the files with 20 parts,

00:55:44   encodes each of those parts separately in parallel,

00:55:47   and then glues them all together at the end.

00:55:49   It turned out the way I was gluing things together

00:55:51   was actually adding one silent frame of audio,

00:55:55   which is something like 11 milliseconds.

00:55:58   It was adding a little bit of audio

00:56:00   at every joint that was silent.

00:56:02   And it split them on silences, so you wouldn't ever notice.

00:56:06   It wouldn't split it in the middle of a word,

00:56:08   so it wouldn't be inserting silence anywhere you would notice.

00:56:11   But it was enough that the chapter markers

00:56:14   would be very slightly off as they were layered in an episode

00:56:18   if you were encoding with a high core count machine,

00:56:21   because you would have all these segments that were joined,

00:56:23   and so a chapter marker might be off by a half a second.

00:56:27   And the problem is, when I'm placing these so precisely

00:56:30   to make sure that the audio flows correctly

00:56:34   when it performs the sponsor removal splice,

00:56:37   and it doesn't have a weirdly long gap

00:56:39   or it doesn't cut off half a word somewhere,

00:56:42   a half a second of imprecision is too much.

00:56:45   So first, and this is all to save me

00:56:48   a small amount of work every week.

00:56:50   (laughs)

00:56:52   First, I had to improve the MP3 joining algorithm in forecast.

00:56:58   When I first wrote it, like four or five years ago,

00:57:02   I had less knowledge of the MP3 file format than I have now.

00:57:05   So I was able to do that just by knowing,

00:57:07   like, oh, that's right, it's this padding frame

00:57:09   that the lame lib is adding, you know, whatever.

00:57:11   So I knew enough to do it correctly this time.

00:57:14   So first I had to, like, figure out the notarization,

00:57:17   add dark mode, update lame, then improve

00:57:20   the precision of chapter markers

00:57:22   by rewriting the way I joined things.

00:57:24   (laughs)

00:57:25   - My goodness.

00:57:26   - But all that, I was able to do it

00:57:28   because I control my production tool.

00:57:31   You know, like, it's a very powerful thing,

00:57:34   like, to have that, and you know, it's like a slow build.

00:57:38   Like, this is how I like to do things

00:57:39   in my entire career, if possible.

00:57:41   You put in a lot of work up front

00:57:43   to do ridiculous things that save time over time.

00:57:46   This is one of the great things about being a programmer.

00:57:48   Like, you can, if you have some annoying task

00:57:52   that you have to do every day or every week

00:57:54   or even once a year, you can write a script

00:57:57   and you can spend three hours writing a script

00:57:59   that's gonna save you one minute a day,

00:58:01   but that's satisfying, and eventually

00:58:03   that might be worth it.

00:58:04   (laughs)

00:58:05   But now I have ad-free versions.

00:58:08   As I said, I only did the last four episodes ad-free.

00:58:11   I didn't go back, like, any further than that.

00:58:13   Then there's also issues with overcast

00:58:15   that were kind of led to this.

00:58:17   I developed a ping API to kind of make

00:58:21   the private feed update speed be as fast

00:58:25   as the public feed, 'cause you know,

00:58:26   what you wouldn't want is if you have a premium feed,

00:58:29   where everybody has their own little feeds,

00:58:31   you know, like a premium offering,

00:58:33   you don't want the public show to go out

00:58:35   and then, and have that be picked up

00:58:37   by all the apps really fast, 'cause it's a popular feed,

00:58:40   and then have to wait like two or three hours

00:58:42   for all the member feeds to pick up the same episode.

00:58:44   Like, that would be not good.

00:58:46   You know, you don't want your members

00:58:47   to have a worse experience than your non-members, right?

00:58:49   You want it to be equal or better.

00:58:51   So I developed an API in overcast,

00:58:53   where every time we publish a new episode,

00:58:56   and this is a public API, it's on the podcaster info page,

00:58:59   the ping API, overcast now has an API

00:59:01   where you can say, all right, the feeds

00:59:03   that begin with this prefix just got updated,

00:59:05   so go crawl them now, instead of waiting, you know,

00:59:07   possibly up to an hour or whatever

00:59:09   that you might otherwise crawl them.

00:59:11   So again, like, we produce a show here,

00:59:14   I control the production tool, I control our biggest client.

00:59:17   It's a good place to be.

00:59:18   I know not everybody can do this,

00:59:20   but when you do this, when you have this kind of stuff,

00:59:22   it's amazingly strategically valuable,

00:59:25   and you can push things forward, you know,

00:59:27   you can make new features or make things better for everybody

00:59:30   just based on your own needs, 'cause you know

00:59:32   what your needs are, 'cause you're also a podcaster.

00:59:34   - It's important to remember, and Mark was talking about

00:59:36   all these things about how he has his production tools

00:59:38   and the app and the CMS and blah, blah, blah.

00:59:40   This is still using all just open standards.

00:59:43   MP3 is an open standard that Marco did not invent.

00:59:45   Chapters are part of the standard that Marco did not invent.

00:59:48   Anybody can make tools that understand these.

00:59:50   Our private and public feeds are just plain old RSS feeds

00:59:53   that any podcast client can play.

00:59:55   Like, we're all within this open ecosystem.

00:59:57   It's just that because it's open,

00:59:59   anybody can make apps that deal with them,

01:00:01   which means that Marco can make apps that deal with them,

01:00:03   and so he has, and same thing with our website.

01:00:05   It's, you know, using PHP. It's on the web.

01:00:07   It's on the website using open standards.

01:00:09   It's just nice to be able to control

01:00:12   as much of that as possible and as feasible.

01:00:15   Related to that, since we control it,

01:00:18   we wanted to make it a good, simple experience.

01:00:20   Hopefully the people in the chat room who are our superfans

01:00:22   have figured out the website

01:00:24   and have not stumbled over anything,

01:00:26   but we spent a surprising amount of time trying to figure out

01:00:28   how to make it, make the experience obvious

01:00:30   and simple enough.

01:00:32   It's just like one or two screens.

01:00:34   Like, it's not complicated. You just go there,

01:00:36   and it's very simple, and that's what we wanted it to be.

01:00:38   But one of the simplifications that I had my heart set

01:00:40   on the beginning that it turns out we couldn't do

01:00:42   was sign in with Apple.

01:00:44   The thing that we talked about on the show,

01:00:46   I'm a big fan of this service.

01:00:48   It's like, oh, if you already trust Apple

01:00:50   and if you're listening to this podcast,

01:00:52   maybe you do already, you can, instead of signing in

01:00:54   with an e-mail address or something,

01:00:56   you can do sign in with Apple, and we wouldn't even know

01:00:58   what your e-mail address was if you didn't want us to.

01:01:00   You'd just be completely anonymous

01:01:02   as far as we're concerned. You wouldn't have to maintain

01:01:04   separate login credentials. It would just be like

01:01:06   your Apple ID that you already have, and that would be

01:01:08   an option for people who wanted to use

01:01:10   sign in with Apple. Unfortunately,

01:01:12   sign in with Apple

01:01:14   strongly suggests that you have

01:01:16   an application associated with

01:01:18   like an iOS application or whatever,

01:01:20   and you can kind of make like a dummy

01:01:22   application just to satisfy

01:01:24   its desires, but

01:01:26   we don't have an app. We have a website.

01:01:28   There is no like ATP app, right?

01:01:30   We didn't want to make one,

01:01:32   so unfortunately, the reason we don't have

01:01:34   sign in with Apple is right now, it's not really

01:01:36   designed to be just a way

01:01:38   for people to log into a website that has no

01:01:40   associated app whatsoever.

01:01:42   We do support Apple Pay through Stripe,

01:01:44   so the payment process is really

01:01:46   easy if you have Apple Pay and you want to use that

01:01:48   and you don't want to have to enter credit card number. You can

01:01:50   be done in like less than 30 seconds,

01:01:52   but for now, no sign in with

01:01:54   Apple. I mean, yeah, like as John said, if we could

01:01:56   just get away with not having your e-mail address

01:01:58   at all, that would be wonderful. You know

01:02:00   I would jump at that. You know, I mean, and believe me,

01:02:02   I thought of various ways I could try to get

01:02:04   away with not having an e-mail address

01:02:06   for anybody, but the problem is

01:02:08   like when you're taking people's money

01:02:10   directly, you need to have

01:02:12   some way of accounting for them so that like

01:02:14   you can, so if they have a problem,

01:02:16   they can e-mail you

01:02:18   and say, "Hey, I have a problem. Here's my e-mail

01:02:20   address. Can you look up my account?" You know, otherwise

01:02:22   it just makes stuff a lot harder if

01:02:24   you don't have that, and our payment processor,

01:02:26   Stripe, collects the e-mail address

01:02:28   anyway, so like we already

01:02:30   are in possession of it anyway

01:02:32   through, you know, indirectly. Like we have access

01:02:34   to it. It's in our data from Stripe,

01:02:36   so at that point, it's like, "Well,

01:02:38   we already, we're already exposed

01:02:40   to it." You know, and like, if

01:02:42   you think about it, like personal information

01:02:44   as like almost like a virus,

01:02:46   like, you know, it's like, well, if it passes

01:02:48   near your hands, like it's on

01:02:50   you, so you have to take the precautions

01:02:52   to protect it, and you know, you have to have

01:02:54   a privacy policy about it and everything. It's like

01:02:56   once you have to do all that stuff anyway,

01:02:58   you might as well also provide a decent login experience

01:03:00   and be able to fix people's

01:03:02   issues when they e-mail you. One

01:03:04   of the problems that we had when

01:03:06   we were thinking about, "Should we add

01:03:08   Sign-In with Apple?" before we realized that, you know, you kind of, that you

01:03:10   really are encouraged, that it really

01:03:12   needs an app, and you know,

01:03:14   when Apple strongly encourages something, it basically

01:03:16   is a rule, not a suggestion.

01:03:18   But,

01:03:20   but, you know, and if it isn't a rule now,

01:03:22   it will become one later, so you might as well treat it like a rule

01:03:24   now. But, one of the

01:03:26   problems with Sign-In with Apple is like,

01:03:28   if you have Sign-In with Apple,

01:03:30   many people will use it

01:03:32   the first time they sign up, or they will not use it

01:03:34   the first time they sign up, and then when they

01:03:36   come back to your site a few months later and want to log in,

01:03:38   they will try

01:03:40   the other thing. If they, you know, they used it the first time,

01:03:42   they will try not using it the second time, because they'll forget

01:03:44   whether they used it the first time or not,

01:03:46   and then they will either

01:03:48   not have, not see their account, and

01:03:50   e-mail you saying, "My account's missing,"

01:03:52   or they will miss, they will

01:03:54   inadvertently create a new

01:03:56   blank account, and then they'll write to you saying,

01:03:58   "All my stuff's gone in my account."

01:04:00   So, you create all sorts of, like, customer

01:04:02   friction and customer support problems

01:04:04   whenever you have multiple ways to log in

01:04:06   to your service or app. So, ideally,

01:04:08   if you could make it just one way,

01:04:10   you totally eliminate,

01:04:12   "How did I sign up for this?" You know,

01:04:14   and you still have issues of people with multiple e-mail

01:04:16   addresses deciding which one they want to use,

01:04:18   but at least you reduce the,

01:04:20   you know, you reduce the number of problems and problem sources

01:04:22   you have by one big one, by just

01:04:24   saying, like, "Okay, you don't have to worry about

01:04:26   whether you log into our site with Twitter

01:04:28   or Facebook or Apple ID or anything. You just

01:04:30   log into our site with an e-mail address,

01:04:32   period." So, there it is.

01:04:34   I don't even have a password. I use one of my

01:04:36   passwordless login systems.

01:04:38   And, well, so

01:04:40   we put a lot of work into the subscribe

01:04:42   flow. Again, special thanks to the

01:04:44   Chatecury and Dithering

01:04:46   podcasts, Ben Thompson and John Gruber.

01:04:48   The system that Ben Thompson has devised

01:04:50   over there for quick

01:04:52   subscribing with, like, the cool QR code and everything,

01:04:54   we ripped it off completely 100%,

01:04:56   with permission, but totally ripped it

01:04:58   off, totally shamelessly, so

01:05:00   thanks to them for

01:05:02   innovating

01:05:04   so that the rest of us can

01:05:06   reap the benefits.

01:05:08   One final nicety that Marco added,

01:05:10   and you can correct me if I'm wrong about

01:05:12   understanding this, but if you sign up as a member

01:05:14   and you get your special member feed and you add it

01:05:16   to your podcast player of choice using our

01:05:18   cool little page that lets you do

01:05:20   that, and then

01:05:22   you unsubscribe, you stop being a

01:05:24   member, you don't

01:05:26   have to change your feed. Is that

01:05:28   correct, Marco? That feed will continue to work

01:05:30   for you, and then if you sign,

01:05:32   it will just become the non-member feed,

01:05:34   right? So, suddenly, you know, you won't have to, like,

01:05:36   delete the feed from your podcast player, then resubscribe

01:05:38   to the public feed, and then delete the public feed.

01:05:40   You can just keep that feed there forever,

01:05:42   and the content of it will change

01:05:44   based on whether you are currently an active member

01:05:46   or not. Yeah, and it'll tell you, like, it'll

01:05:48   prefix the title with "Subscription Expired,"

01:05:50   so, like, it'll be very clear that it

01:05:52   is an expired member subscription, but the content

01:05:54   will still be coming in, and there will be a link in each

01:05:56   post for you to renew if you want to.

01:05:58   Your member feed, as long as you don't delete your

01:06:00   account, your member feed will continue

01:06:02   to work just fine

01:06:04   as a copy of the public feed.

01:06:06   And then as soon as you want to resubscribe in the future,

01:06:08   member stuff all shows up again. Yeah, and

01:06:10   you can, of course, delete the feed and resubscribe to the public one, too,

01:06:12   just saying this is a nice city, so you don't

01:06:14   end up with this weird dead feed that doesn't

01:06:16   work anymore. One thing that may

01:06:18   not be clear, or at least wasn't clear to me about

01:06:20   your membership that you're paying for,

01:06:22   it's not calendar month, so if you

01:06:24   become a member now, you're not, like, missing out

01:06:26   on, like, the first couple of shows in June.

01:06:28   It's based on your

01:06:30   sign-up date, right? Yeah, it's

01:06:32   simply, you know, time range from now.

01:06:34   You're buying, you know, a month from

01:06:36   now, and so, and it renews

01:06:38   next month. And you can see it's, like,

01:06:40   man, Stripe is so good

01:06:42   these days. I mean, so I've built,

01:06:44   I've used Stripe a couple times over the years.

01:06:46   It's always been great.

01:06:48   It's always been, like, great company,

01:06:50   super amazing API,

01:06:52   extremely easy to use, like,

01:06:54   breath of fresh air compared to the old days of PayPal.

01:06:56   But, now,

01:06:58   it's even better. Like, if you can

01:07:00   believe, like, if you are building anything with

01:07:02   payments, I strongly encourage

01:07:04   you to use Stripe,

01:07:06   because it's so good.

01:07:08   Stripe, not a sponsor of this episode. Yeah.

01:07:10   You'd be amazed how

01:07:12   much functionality we

01:07:14   got from them for

01:07:16   almost no effort at all. Like,

01:07:18   the Stripe integration took me two days

01:07:20   for the entire payment

01:07:22   system. That is,

01:07:24   subscribing, including Apple Pay,

01:07:26   including support for

01:07:28   the cards that use 3D Secure that need, like,

01:07:30   you know, send you a text message to verify the

01:07:32   charge before it actually goes through. Like, all that stuff

01:07:34   is supported. And a whole billing portal, where

01:07:36   you can go in and, like, change your credit card number

01:07:38   if it's about to expire. It'll email you a week

01:07:40   ahead of time of expiration and stuff like that.

01:07:42   You can see your billing history.

01:07:44   All that, and it

01:07:46   took me two days to build the entire

01:07:48   integration. Again, Stripe has always been good,

01:07:50   but it's even better now.

01:07:52   So, if you're building something that

01:07:54   requires credit cards, if you're thinking about it,

01:07:56   you'd be shocked how easy it is. So, yeah.

01:07:58   Thank you to Stripe for being awesome.

01:08:00   There were a lot of design decisions and things

01:08:02   that went into this, and I don't think we need to belabor it anymore

01:08:04   right now, but we might visit it in the future,

01:08:06   or as we make other choices, we might

01:08:08   revisit those in the future. But, I

01:08:10   do want to thank Marco one more time for putting

01:08:12   in the overwhelming amount of work on doing this.

01:08:14   And if you want to get Marco a birthday present,

01:08:16   you can donate to the three

01:08:18   organizations we've already talked about,

01:08:20   and/or you can join the

01:08:22   ATP membership program.

01:08:24   And. And would be better.

01:08:26   Let's do "and." I'd rather, if you're gonna only give

01:08:28   $8 a month to somebody, don't give it to me. Give it to

01:08:30   one of them.

01:08:32   We are sponsored this week by Notion.

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01:10:06   [Music]

01:10:08   [Music]

01:10:10   All right, we have one big topic we need to talk

01:10:12   about, which is going to make me friggin' miserable.

01:10:14   Bloomberg says that the ARM

01:10:16   transition is happening in, what,

01:10:18   a week and a half, two weeks, something like that?

01:10:20   It's happening at WWDC, or at least it will be announced

01:10:22   anyway at WWDC.

01:10:24   And this would only be

01:10:26   depressing if you had a brand new laptop

01:10:28   arriving tomorrow, which I definitely

01:10:30   don't. Definitely not.

01:10:32   I'm kind of amazed at how much mileage

01:10:34   that Bloomberg has gotten,

01:10:36   slash, Germin have gotten out of essentially the same

01:10:38   story. Like, I think we've had

01:10:40   basically the same story as a topic

01:10:42   on this podcast. Not just

01:10:44   ARM MAX, but I'm saying this

01:10:46   specific story with these facts

01:10:48   in this publication

01:10:50   on this show, like, three times, right?

01:10:52   So kudos for, you know, getting the page

01:10:54   views. I don't think there's much new information, except

01:10:56   they're becoming more and more insistent that no,

01:10:58   really, WWDC,

01:11:00   which is in a couple of weeks as we record this,

01:11:02   this is going to be the coming out

01:11:04   party for ARM on

01:11:06   the Mac. They don't,

01:11:08   you know, with the typical hedging, they always say, "As

01:11:10   early as," yeah, well, it could happen as early

01:11:12   as any point in the future. That's kind of,

01:11:14   you know, anyway. So

01:11:16   they're hedging, and they're like, "Oh, there's not going to be

01:11:18   hardware available," but of course you have to announce

01:11:20   the transition before you have the hardware for most cases,

01:11:22   because if you just released ARM MAX, nothing

01:11:24   would run on them, and, you know,

01:11:26   all this leads us to discuss

01:11:28   all the same questions. Now, the fact that they, why

01:11:30   are we talking about it for a third time, then? If it's like

01:11:32   there's not really any new facts, and it's just, you know,

01:11:34   being more insistent on the dates that they've said many

01:11:36   months ago, I think as they

01:11:38   become more insistent, and as the date comes closer,

01:11:40   I start to believe more,

01:11:42   because it's like, well, they're still insisting,

01:11:44   and it's getting closer to the day. We all know, kind of, like,

01:11:46   you know, the leaks get more

01:11:48   solid the closer you get to the date of when they're

01:11:50   supposed to happen, and

01:11:52   practically speaking, if

01:11:54   the long-term rumors of, like, ARM MAX in

01:11:56   2021 are true,

01:11:58   you kind of have to tell people about it

01:12:00   before you try to sell them a bunch of

01:12:02   hardware that doesn't run any apps, right? So

01:12:04   WWDC is the time

01:12:06   you would tell them, and you

01:12:08   probably don't want to wait until WWDC

01:12:10   2021 if you're planning on having any

01:12:12   selling consumers max in 2021.

01:12:14   That's too late, so

01:12:16   unless, like so many other things

01:12:18   in this world that have been, you know, delayed

01:12:20   by coronavirus, if that, if coronavirus

01:12:22   hasn't thrown a giant monkey wrench into their

01:12:24   plans, I'm starting to

01:12:26   believe that this upcoming WWDC

01:12:28   is going to be the,

01:12:30   you know, the move away from

01:12:32   x86, move away from Intel. I don't even know

01:12:34   how to phrase it. We keep saying ARM MAX, but

01:12:36   as we've discussed in many past shows, oh, could be anything,

01:12:38   could be any kind of Apple processor, could be RISC-V,

01:12:40   could be AMD, could be,

01:12:42   anyway, ARM MAX, we're pretty sure

01:12:44   that's what's coming, that's what Bloomberg says.

01:12:46   And WWDC could be the date.

01:12:48   Yeah, I'm

01:12:50   very much looking forward to this. I mean, we've been talking

01:12:52   about it for years now as the thing that

01:12:54   we assumed was probably going to happen

01:12:56   someday, and it has

01:12:58   kind of felt over the last year or so

01:13:00   like, it seems like it's getting close.

01:13:02   If it finally is happening,

01:13:04   I'm so excited. And even though,

01:13:06   you know, again, we've talked about this

01:13:08   so many times, there will

01:13:10   be losses along the way, but I think

01:13:12   we've already hit most of them.

01:13:14   It's not a coincidence

01:13:16   that Mac OS in the last couple of years

01:13:18   has dropped support outright

01:13:20   or deprecated major

01:13:22   functionality that is

01:13:24   considered like old or legacy that you

01:13:26   think might be hard to support in an ARM transition.

01:13:28   So things like 32-bit support,

01:13:30   OpenGL, you know, like

01:13:32   major things that have

01:13:34   cost us a lot of apps, especially 32-bit has

01:13:36   caused a lot of apps to be killed, basically.

01:13:38   You know, a lot of the old

01:13:40   APIs that were 32-bit only, you know,

01:13:42   those aren't coming over. Why do

01:13:44   you think Apple's been doing all this house cleaning on Mac OS?

01:13:46   It's not just

01:13:48   for fun. It's

01:13:50   clearly in preparation for this transition.

01:13:52   So it does seem,

01:13:54   it seemed for a while that it's imminent. That seems

01:13:56   more likely than ever now, and especially

01:13:58   when backed up with this pretty firm

01:14:00   report. I'm very excited

01:14:02   to see this. I cannot wait.

01:14:04   I do think we are probably going to lose

01:14:06   Bootcamp,

01:14:08   any kind of x86 emulation

01:14:10   I think is out the window,

01:14:12   and a lot of PC hardware

01:14:14   compatibility is probably going to be lost as well.

01:14:16   But I think that

01:14:18   will be worth it in the end.

01:14:20   I'm trying to remember what was the presentation

01:14:22   where

01:14:24   was it the most recent

01:14:26   WWDC? There was some recent Apple presentation.

01:14:28   I remember talking on

01:14:30   the show about how

01:14:32   the whole presentation was like

01:14:34   a giant sub-tweet.

01:14:36   I remember saying that the presentation

01:14:38   was basically screaming, "We are making our

01:14:40   Macs!"

01:14:42   That's exactly what I said in the

01:14:44   past episode of ATB. I can't remember the episode number.

01:14:46   But the presentation was,

01:14:48   "Here at Apple, we have a bunch of new

01:14:50   products, and this one has an

01:14:52   A-whatever processor in it.

01:14:54   And let me tell you how great those A-whatever processors

01:14:56   are. And it's got this, and it's got that." And they just

01:14:58   went into how great they are at making these system-mounted

01:15:00   chips. It was obviously an iOS device or whatever.

01:15:02   They were so into it, and they were

01:15:04   just telling you about all this cool stuff.

01:15:06   And either just before or just

01:15:08   after that, they had talked about a Mac product,

01:15:10   and it said almost nothing about the CPUs.

01:15:12   Because A) we knew that

01:15:14   they were not remarkable, and B)

01:15:16   everything that they were saying

01:15:18   about the A-series, you knew if you knew the

01:15:20   tech stuff, it was like, "Not true

01:15:22   of the Intel CPU and the other

01:15:24   thing." It's not super power efficient.

01:15:26   It's not made on a new process size.

01:15:28   It doesn't have a neural engine. It's GPU isn't

01:15:30   way better. It doesn't have more cores.

01:15:32   It has none of that stuff.

01:15:34   And of course, Apple's not going to say this in the presentation. It costs

01:15:36   Apple hundreds of dollars to Intel,

01:15:38   whereas this one costs them less

01:15:40   than $100 or whatever.

01:15:42   The whole presentation,

01:15:44   the subtext was

01:15:46   "Apple makes great CPUs.

01:15:48   Our CPUs are great in ways that

01:15:50   Intel CPUs are not." But they didn't say that.

01:15:52   That wasn't the time for that presentation.

01:15:54   When I saw that presentation, I'm like, "Oh, it's

01:15:56   on now. It's clear that they are

01:15:58   just... There's no turning

01:16:00   back now. This is the tech

01:16:02   strategy. Everybody knows it, and their

01:16:04   presentations have been leading

01:16:06   up to it." So when they do come on stage and

01:16:08   present this, this is

01:16:10   the thing I'm thinking about as we come closer to

01:16:12   WWC. How do they position this?

01:16:14   We talked about this when we were talking about it years ago. It's like, "Oh, do they

01:16:16   just use ARM for the low-end laptops?

01:16:18   Do they keep the big ones

01:16:20   x86? Do they try to make a 64-core

01:16:22   processor for a new ARM-based

01:16:24   Mac Pro?" This is back when we didn't even know

01:16:26   they were going to make a Mac Pro.

01:16:28   How do they deal with the software situation?

01:16:32   How do they present this?

01:16:34   Now that we get closer to the date,

01:16:36   the default strategy that everyone

01:16:38   believes becomes

01:16:40   much more...

01:16:42   There's much more support for it. That presentation

01:16:44   they gave was not a presentation

01:16:46   preparing the way for

01:16:48   Apple to say, "We're pursuing a dual CPU

01:16:50   strategy where we're going to have

01:16:52   forever Intel CPUs and

01:16:54   ARM Macs at the same time."

01:16:56   That presentation was all about

01:16:58   how Apple makes amazing CPUs,

01:17:00   nobody makes better ones, isn't Apple awesome?

01:17:02   Don't you wish these were in all of your devices?

01:17:04   I think, right now,

01:17:06   a couple weeks out from WWC, if they do this,

01:17:08   the positioning is the same as it was

01:17:10   for Intel and the same as it was for Power OC, which is

01:17:12   basically these new

01:17:14   A-whatever, these new

01:17:16   Apple-made CPUs are

01:17:18   better in all the ways that we care about

01:17:20   than the CPUs we currently use. They're faster,

01:17:22   they use less power, they have more features.

01:17:24   They're not going to say this, but they're cheaper.

01:17:26   And the pitch is

01:17:28   and eventually, all Macs

01:17:30   will use this, because it's better.

01:17:32   Just like they said with Power PC, and just like

01:17:34   they said with Intel. In fact, with Intel, if

01:17:36   people were around for that transition,

01:17:38   the specific pitch they made, which may sound weird

01:17:40   in today's world of smartphones and iPads, but the

01:17:42   specific pitch they made was that Power PC

01:17:44   was just too power-hungry,

01:17:46   ha ha. They couldn't

01:17:48   put a G5 into a laptop, they weren't

01:17:50   power-efficient, and Intel's roadmap had

01:17:52   CPUs that had much better

01:17:54   performance per watt. It wasn't

01:17:56   just like, "Oh, Intel CPUs are faster." They were

01:17:58   at that point, they definitely were faster, but the

01:18:00   pitch was, "These are

01:18:02   faster and use less power, so

01:18:04   we can put them in our laptops." And, you know,

01:18:06   like, Apple's thing is like, "There are

01:18:08   ideas for computers that we have that we

01:18:10   can't make with available Power PC

01:18:12   CPUs, and the roadmap

01:18:14   doesn't have anything to help us, like, say, a laptop."

01:18:16   If your laptop is still

01:18:18   G4, but your big desktops

01:18:20   are G5, and the G5 is faster and better than

01:18:22   the G4, and there's no prospect of

01:18:24   getting a G5 into a laptop, that's a pretty dire

01:18:26   situation. Obviously, it's not that

01:18:28   dire now, but all this is to say is the

01:18:30   pitch was, "This

01:18:32   is the future of the Mac, and yes,

01:18:34   there'll be a transition, and it will take a while, and here's

01:18:36   how we're going to handle the transition, and don't feel bad about

01:18:38   the Macs that you already have." Like, all the stuff

01:18:40   that people are worried about, like, "Oh, you're going to announce

01:18:42   an Intel transition, but then you're going to be selling people

01:18:44   Power PC Macs? What if someone bought a Power PC

01:18:46   Mac the day before that presentation?"

01:18:48   That happened. That's a thing that happened.

01:18:50   We all survived it. It's a bumpy transition.

01:18:52   Your Intel Mac will

01:18:54   be fine for probably the lifetime of that

01:18:56   computer, because these transitions take time.

01:18:58   But, in the end, I feel like

01:19:00   this has to be positioned as

01:19:02   the future of the Mac is whatever

01:19:04   this thing is that Apple wants to move to, whatever

01:19:06   they call these things. If they're A-series, M-series,

01:19:08   you know, whatever they are,

01:19:10   that's going to be for every Mac.

01:19:12   It may take them longer.

01:19:14   Maybe it's two or three years until they get

01:19:16   a Apple-made CPU

01:19:18   that is appropriate to replace

01:19:20   the one in the Mac Pro or something.

01:19:22   But I think that

01:19:24   has to be the pitch is, "We make great

01:19:26   CPUs. We're bringing them to the Mac."

01:19:28   Even if they say, "Our

01:19:30   first line of Macs will just be the laptops,"

01:19:32   I will be shocked if they make

01:19:34   any commitment to, like,

01:19:36   in perpetuity continue to make Intel-based

01:19:38   Macs, because that's just

01:19:40   not the way Apple does things, and honestly,

01:19:42   it doesn't really make any sense, because I think

01:19:44   this is the one thing we've discussed

01:19:46   in the program over and over again.

01:19:48   I think Apple

01:19:50   has proven the capability

01:19:52   to make an appropriate

01:19:54   CPU for every Mac that they sell,

01:19:56   including the Mac Pro. They haven't

01:19:58   actually done that yet, as far as

01:20:00   we know. Maybe there's something in a secret lab or something.

01:20:02   But I think they've proven they're able

01:20:04   to, because

01:20:06   the only difference in terms of

01:20:08   the chips that are like in an

01:20:10   iPad and in the Mac Pro is

01:20:12   basically the number of cores. The individual cores

01:20:14   are now competitive.

01:20:16   Everything else is just a matter of money and time.

01:20:18   Bus widths,

01:20:20   memory support,

01:20:22   I/O, PCI Express

01:20:24   lanes, these are all solvable problems.

01:20:26   Even the minor batteries that existed before

01:20:28   that I used to insist could be solved by money.

01:20:30   Those have come down without the application

01:20:32   of huge amounts of money. Thunderbolt is now

01:20:34   an open standard, and you can be certified as

01:20:36   Thunderbolt-compatible, even if you're not made by Intel.

01:20:38   And

01:20:40   Marko mentioned the 32-64 bit

01:20:42   stuff has resolved itself.

01:20:44   Everything is all set up. Everything is all

01:20:46   lined up for Apple to do this. It's easier

01:20:48   now than it has ever been in the past.

01:20:50   And I feel like the positioning simply

01:20:52   has to be, "This is the future of the Mac."

01:20:54   I'm so

01:20:56   excited

01:20:58   and disappointed about WWDC

01:21:00   this year, because

01:21:02   it was

01:21:04   a unique pleasure being around

01:21:06   you when Swift was announced

01:21:08   and when, you know,

01:21:10   it wasn't the Mac Pro announced

01:21:12   when we were in the keynote

01:21:14   audience?

01:21:16   Sure was. You weren't next to me for Swift, but Mac Pro you were.

01:21:18   Both Mac Pros.

01:21:20   Well, there you go, exactly.

01:21:22   Anyways, the point is, being in the room

01:21:24   for that, like, obviously,

01:21:26   the reality distortion field

01:21:28   is different and has been since, what,

01:21:30   2011, but

01:21:32   it's still amazing to be in the room when this

01:21:34   is happening. And

01:21:36   if this really is going to be announced

01:21:38   in a couple of weeks, I'm going to be real

01:21:40   sad not to be there. Obviously, I may not have

01:21:42   been there anyway, because I might not have gotten a ticket, but

01:21:44   it would have been really

01:21:46   cool to have been able to see it in person.

01:21:48   And I'm really curious

01:21:50   how they're going to handle

01:21:52   the cheering and the hooping and the hollering

01:21:54   over something that

01:21:56   arguably really

01:21:58   should be cheered. And

01:22:00   we should be hooping and hollering over.

01:22:02   I'm curious to see

01:22:04   how they handle that if they're just

01:22:06   doing recorded videos.

01:22:08   I'm also curious to see what

01:22:10   I think about this computer that's arriving

01:22:12   tomorrow, which I actually am super stoked for.

01:22:14   I was thinking of you, and I said, "What if I just

01:22:16   bought a Mac with the

01:22:18   previous CPU?" Like, it'll be fine.

01:22:20   I saw you fretting about that. What about yourself?

01:22:22   I mean, before

01:22:24   I ordered my Mac Pro, I had

01:22:26   insisted many times, "I understand

01:22:28   that Apple may have had to be switched

01:22:30   to ARM, and I'm going to buy the last

01:22:32   great Intel thing." And honestly, it's not even that great

01:22:34   in terms of single-core performance. The iPads are

01:22:36   probably faster, right? I'm

01:22:38   resigned to it/fine with it.

01:22:40   People are asking, "How do you feel about that?" I'm excited

01:22:42   for ARM Macs. I'm not depressed

01:22:44   about my Mac Pro. I love my Mac Pro. It's great.

01:22:46   And I'll be fine with it.

01:22:48   Maybe it won't last me ten years.

01:22:50   Maybe I'll replace it with another...

01:22:52   I bought multiple cheese graders before.

01:22:54   I can buy multiple mega graders

01:22:56   again, maybe, someday.

01:22:58   But anyway,

01:23:00   I'll survive. It'll be perfectly fine.

01:23:02   I'm excited for ARM Macs,

01:23:04   even if it's just laptops, which I don't even like in the beginning.

01:23:06   Because having lived through

01:23:08   two CPU transitions before,

01:23:10   every one of them has been exciting.

01:23:12   PowerPC was super exciting

01:23:14   for... I mean, PowerPC itself was exciting

01:23:16   for lots of reasons. There was lots of political reasons and

01:23:18   other things that we can get into in Old Man

01:23:20   Mode and in different shows, maybe. But

01:23:22   the main thing was that

01:23:24   it was faster. It was so much

01:23:26   faster than the old...

01:23:28   ridiculously faster, demonstrably faster.

01:23:30   And who's not excited by that?

01:23:32   And even this is even back in the '90s

01:23:34   or whatever, when computers were getting faster all the time anyway.

01:23:36   Even in that environment, the switch

01:23:38   to PowerPC showed a lot of speed.

01:23:40   Even in an operating system that was still

01:23:42   largely emulated because huge

01:23:44   slots of Mac OS were still 68K code

01:23:46   for the longest time. Then the Intel transition,

01:23:48   again, Apple was in a bad

01:23:50   place. They couldn't put a G5 in a laptop.

01:23:52   The Intel Macs were right out of the gate. You used them,

01:23:54   and you're like, "Oh." I remember

01:23:56   compiling Perl on an Intel Mac.

01:23:58   I'm like, "Holy cow."

01:24:00   This compiles so much

01:24:02   faster than it does on my dual

01:24:04   G5 Power Mac.

01:24:06   The next day, it was like,

01:24:08   "Oh, you have a dual

01:24:10   G5 Power Mac? Try this

01:24:12   middle-of-the-road, wimpy Intel Mac."

01:24:14   I'm like, "Well, this giant

01:24:16   cheese grater surely will compile." No, the Intel

01:24:18   one was so much faster.

01:24:20   I hope we have that same excitement.

01:24:22   Maybe it's not raw speed. Maybe it's just like,

01:24:24   "Oh, the battery on the laptops

01:24:26   last iPad length. They're like 10 hours long,

01:24:28   and before I was only getting four hours."

01:24:30   I don't know, but I'm hoping

01:24:32   that these Macs

01:24:34   will be compelling. For anyone

01:24:36   who has never gone through one of these architecture

01:24:38   transitions, they're scary

01:24:40   and they could be bumpy, but my main memory

01:24:42   of the previous two transitions is excitement.

01:24:44   As a tech nerd,

01:24:46   it's an exciting time to be

01:24:48   involved in the Mac. You would think it would be a

01:24:50   scary time, and it would be like, "Oh, I'm just going to leave the Mac and come back

01:24:52   when things settle down." But to me,

01:24:54   it's always been exciting.

01:24:56   I think they're probably going to start out with the

01:24:58   MacBook Air. It's the

01:25:00   best-selling Mac by all accounts,

01:25:02   and it is very

01:25:04   mainstream and very good, but the one

01:25:06   problem it has is it's kind of slow.

01:25:08   I've also heard that the

01:25:10   thermal system

01:25:12   is not super awesome,

01:25:14   that it's not

01:25:16   a very graceful or high-capacity

01:25:18   thermal system.

01:25:20   So if you can

01:25:22   take that computer, keep what everyone

01:25:24   loves about it, and

01:25:26   give it significantly better performance

01:25:28   and probably better battery life, that's a

01:25:30   great update. That's all it needs

01:25:32   to be. And many of the

01:25:34   buyers of the MacBook Air don't

01:25:36   need a lot of the higher-end, pro

01:25:38   use cases where

01:25:40   the transition might be a little bit bumpier.

01:25:42   This is why I think that

01:25:44   I've seen the idea floated

01:25:46   that possibly

01:25:48   the high-end

01:25:50   products would stay Intel for

01:25:52   maybe a little while longer or

01:25:54   a significantly longer time, and that

01:25:56   maybe ARM is potentially only

01:25:58   in the laptops for a while, or

01:26:00   maybe laptops and the Mac

01:26:02   Mini or something like that.

01:26:04   Maybe ARM doesn't come to

01:26:06   the MacBook Pro or

01:26:08   the iMac Pro or the Mac Pro

01:26:10   quite yet.

01:26:12   Maybe it waits another couple years before that.

01:26:14   In the meantime, you have ARM

01:26:16   where it really has

01:26:18   where it matters most,

01:26:20   which would be a smaller, battery

01:26:22   powered thing like the MacBook Air.

01:26:24   And that would be fine.

01:26:26   That would also give people who

01:26:28   rely on high-end

01:26:30   apps, high-end hardware,

01:26:32   kind of more

01:26:34   specialized stuff like virtualization

01:26:36   that not everybody really needs to do, but some people

01:26:38   really need to do it.

01:26:40   It would give all that time to transition.

01:26:42   And for those people

01:26:44   to either find a different platform

01:26:46   or for tool makers

01:26:48   to fill that in, to make

01:26:50   X86 virtualization, or rather emulation

01:26:52   I guess it would be, on

01:26:54   ARM Macs, stuff like that. There's

01:26:56   so many paths they could take here.

01:26:58   What's really interesting, what

01:27:00   I can't wait to see is

01:27:02   what some of these decisions end up being,

01:27:04   what they decide about things like

01:27:06   bootcamp or emulation, things like that.

01:27:08   And then I want to see the first ARM Mac.

01:27:10   I'm so curious.

01:27:12   If it is something like the MacBook Air, or even

01:27:14   a return of a 12 inch MacBook, but ultimately

01:27:16   I think it would probably just be the MacBook Air,

01:27:18   that would be an amazing computer.

01:27:20   I would probably buy one. It would be

01:27:22   so good. I can't wait.

01:27:24   I really can't wait. The thing that scares

01:27:26   me a little bit about

01:27:28   the potential for the laptops getting

01:27:30   these processors first, which I think makes the most

01:27:32   sense from what we know today,

01:27:34   I'm worried, and this is actually

01:27:36   applicable as well to something we haven't mentioned,

01:27:38   which is a potential iMac refresh,

01:27:40   I'm worried that

01:27:42   maybe the processors will be new

01:27:44   and, well obviously they will be, and

01:27:46   maybe some other

01:27:48   things around that will be new.

01:27:50   Let's just say a version 2

01:27:52   of the Magic Keyboard, or whatever it is they're calling

01:27:54   the keyboards these days. All that is

01:27:56   fine and dandy, but I'm really worried that there's going to be

01:27:58   some new hotness looking

01:28:00   aesthetic quality to it.

01:28:02   And I don't know what that would be, to be honest,

01:28:04   except on the iMacs, where obviously

01:28:06   smaller bezels and so on.

01:28:08   I'm scared that I'm going to get this laptop tomorrow,

01:28:10   which I am genuinely very excited about.

01:28:12   I'm really, really stoked to have something

01:28:14   that will perform a lot better than my adorable, even

01:28:16   though I love it, it's not fast.

01:28:18   And I'm really excited for it, and I think, John,

01:28:20   you're right when you said earlier that

01:28:22   it's going to last. The entire lifetime

01:28:24   of that laptop I don't think has been cut short by

01:28:26   a potential ARM release.

01:28:28   What scares me, and it doesn't even

01:28:30   scare me if this potential

01:28:32   ARM laptop has twice

01:28:34   the battery life of my forthcoming 13"

01:28:36   MacBook Pro. I don't operate away

01:28:38   from a charger that often,

01:28:40   so I'm not worried about that either.

01:28:42   But if it looks cool,

01:28:44   which is so

01:28:46   stupid, I'll be the first to tell you it's so

01:28:48   dumb, but if it looks super cool,

01:28:50   can you imagine if they brought

01:28:52   back, maybe not the polycarbonate, but

01:28:54   the black MacBook? Do you remember how

01:28:56   friggin' cool those things looked?

01:28:58   Something along those lines.

01:29:00   They looked great in 2006

01:29:02   when they came out. I don't think they looked,

01:29:04   I think that was a time period.

01:29:06   They're not going to bring back

01:29:08   plastic. I don't see that happening.

01:29:10   I don't think you have to worry about it looking that cool, though, honestly.

01:29:12   Not to slam Apple's

01:29:14   current laptop design, but

01:29:16   for two reasons. One,

01:29:18   most of Apple's devices

01:29:20   have had their skins pulled in

01:29:22   to such a degree

01:29:24   that there's nothing left

01:29:26   to trim, and all you've

01:29:28   got is surface finishes of color, so I suppose

01:29:30   they could make a black one, but they probably won't. And the second reason

01:29:32   is, during both of the

01:29:34   previous transitions,

01:29:36   Apple's MO, whether intentionally

01:29:38   or just because of momentum,

01:29:40   has been to sell you

01:29:42   computers that look just like

01:29:44   their predecessors, but their insides have a different

01:29:46   CPU. And it makes

01:29:48   sense from a design point. It's like, well, what if

01:29:50   your CPU transition doesn't exactly coincide with

01:29:52   a complete redesign of all your computers? You can't really do

01:29:54   that. So, let's just

01:29:56   take this case that previously came

01:29:58   with the PowerPC and put an Intel chip in it.

01:30:00   And the second part of that that could be

01:30:02   intentional is, we want people to understand that this

01:30:04   is just a Mac. They're not weird, they're not

01:30:06   different. This computer you bought last week

01:30:08   and this computer you bought this week, they look exactly

01:30:10   the same. One has an Intel CPU,

01:30:12   one has a PowerPC CPU.

01:30:14   That could also be an intentional strategy.

01:30:16   But I think the other one

01:30:18   is more compelling. Practically speaking,

01:30:20   Apple is not capable

01:30:22   of physically redesigning

01:30:24   its entire line of computers,

01:30:26   or even a specific one.

01:30:28   They've just refreshed

01:30:30   most of their computers, which I think

01:30:32   leads into this other rumor. This is related to

01:30:34   WWC, the rumor about the iMac being

01:30:36   replaced with a new design. And what they mean

01:30:38   by new design here is, like you were saying, Casey,

01:30:40   the case, essentially.

01:30:42   The current iMac design has been around for

01:30:44   many years. Everyone thinks, oh, you could get one

01:30:46   with a smaller chin, smaller

01:30:48   bezels. Maybe it could look like the

01:30:50   Pro Display XDR. People have all sorts of ideas.

01:30:52   But the bottom line is,

01:30:54   the iMac is probably due for a

01:30:56   physical redesign.

01:30:58   This rumor is

01:31:00   not that this would be like the ARM iMac,

01:31:02   because there's no rumor that

01:31:04   the iMacs are coming this year. All the rumors say

01:31:06   the iMacs would be coming next year at the earliest.

01:31:08   But you have to tell developers about it ahead of time.

01:31:10   This is a developer conference, so people expect them

01:31:12   to be announced to give developers

01:31:14   time to rebuild their apps, yada yada.

01:31:16   But the iMac rumor is,

01:31:18   oh, and they'll introduce a new iMac.

01:31:20   What this would mean, and this may also

01:31:22   blow people's minds who haven't been through the previous two

01:31:24   transitions, is they would announce an ARM

01:31:26   transition, and in the same presentation

01:31:28   say, look at this amazing new Intel-based

01:31:30   iMac. Yeah.

01:31:32   Because they're not going to stop selling Macs

01:31:34   once they announce the transition.

01:31:36   When they announce the Intel transition,

01:31:38   it's not like, no more Macs will be sold

01:31:40   until the first Intel-based Mac

01:31:42   is released. And same thing with PowerPC

01:31:44   and 16. That's just not the way the world works.

01:31:46   So, it is not

01:31:48   inconceivable that they could introduce

01:31:50   a new iMac, probably due to the first part

01:31:52   of the presentation. Say, here's a great new iMac,

01:31:54   here are its specs, here's its price,

01:31:56   doesn't it look cool, ooh, and ahh.

01:31:58   And then later say, and now, an important

01:32:00   transition for the Mac. We've done this twice before,

01:32:02   and put in the slot, you know, like, you know how this is going to go, right?

01:32:04   And I don't think

01:32:06   people will be like, well, wait a second, you just introduced

01:32:08   an Intel Mac. It's like, yeah, and we're going to be selling them

01:32:10   in our stores for the next year, and people are going

01:32:12   to buy them, and they're going to use them, and they're going to work

01:32:14   because they're Macs. It's all

01:32:16   fine, right? But that

01:32:18   being the case, it's not like

01:32:20   they're saying, okay, well, the first ARM-based Mac,

01:32:22   whatever it may be, has to look

01:32:24   radically different to give Casey FOMO.

01:32:26   Like, I don't think that's going to happen, right?

01:32:28   I think they're just going to look,

01:32:30   whatever Mac it is, especially

01:32:32   if it's like the MacBook Air that was just physically

01:32:34   redesigned, it's going to look like that.

01:32:36   Like, that's it. I mean, the best they could do

01:32:38   is maybe give it a new color is available,

01:32:40   or something like that, but their colors haven't

01:32:42   been that daring lately either, so

01:32:44   I do not expect the ARM transition

01:32:46   to coincide with amazing style change. That

01:32:48   being said, I welcome

01:32:50   an amazing, daring style change to

01:32:52   any of Apple's Macintosh lines,

01:32:54   the laptops, desktops,

01:32:56   anything. Not that I don't

01:32:58   like the current style. I do. I really like how

01:33:00   my Mac Pro looks. I think they're all

01:33:02   attractive computers, and they're fine, but I'm always

01:33:04   willing to have things mixed up. I'm

01:33:06   frequently jealous of, you know, the

01:33:08   surface finishes that the

01:33:10   phones get from year to year, different

01:33:12   colors, you know, shiny, matte,

01:33:14   the glass covering,

01:33:16   the pastel things, the product red ones,

01:33:18   the whatever, that jet black one.

01:33:20   Like, there's an adventurous spirit

01:33:22   in the phone line that is not present in

01:33:24   the Mac line, and I certainly welcome

01:33:26   that, but I'm just not expecting it.

01:33:28   By the way, semi-real-time follow-up,

01:33:30   I am pretty sure, and I

01:33:32   think it was my name is T in the chat

01:33:34   that pointed this out,

01:33:36   it was the Brooklyn Academy of Music

01:33:38   event that Marco and I were actually present for

01:33:40   physically, that they were going

01:33:42   on and on about how amazing the processor is, and the

01:33:44   then-brand-new iPad Pro,

01:33:46   and then they started talking about

01:33:48   the then-brand-new MacBook Air,

01:33:50   and yeah, it's great because of all these

01:33:52   things, and there's a processor in it. It also has a processor

01:33:54   in it. Exactly.

01:33:56   And so, I'm pretty sure Marco and I

01:33:58   were there for that. It was brutal.

01:34:00   Yeah. One final bit

01:34:02   on the RMAX. A lot

01:34:04   of people have been speculating about the

01:34:06   hardware that developers

01:34:08   would use to work on their apps, so I kept

01:34:10   saying, like, you have to tell a developer so they can

01:34:12   rebuild their apps, but you're not going to sell

01:34:14   Macs based on the new

01:34:16   processor until the next year, so what the heck are the

01:34:18   developers going to test on? Well,

01:34:20   when they did the Intel transition, they had this

01:34:22   thing called the, what, the Developer

01:34:24   Transition Kit or something, where they would

01:34:26   sell you a Mac that was

01:34:28   basically an existing cheese grater

01:34:30   Mac, you know, a Power Mac, but

01:34:32   inside, I believe it was a Pentium 4?

01:34:34   Correct. It was like a PC motherboard

01:34:36   with a Pentium 4, and

01:34:38   they weren't selling it to you. You were

01:34:40   essentially renting it, but you had to

01:34:42   give it back to Apple at the end, and

01:34:44   anyway, developers could get this. They gave Apple

01:34:46   whatever it was, $1,000 or something, and you

01:34:48   got a cheese grater with a Pentium 4 in it,

01:34:50   and you would use that to

01:34:52   port your app. It was an

01:34:54   Intel-based Mac. It ran Mac OS X,

01:34:56   and you would open up Xcode and bring your

01:34:58   source code into it and try to get it to build and

01:35:00   test it and everything like that, and then

01:35:02   after the period was up,

01:35:04   you sent that back to Apple, and then what did they do?

01:35:06   They gave you, they said, they gave you

01:35:08   the actual production Intel iMac

01:35:10   as an option

01:35:12   or something you could choose to either get your money back

01:35:14   or they would send you an Intel iMac. I forgot,

01:35:16   but the point is, Apple has various

01:35:18   ways to get hardware

01:35:20   to developers so they can do their

01:35:22   development, but the hardware they give to developers

01:35:24   isn't like a secretly ready

01:35:26   ahead of time Mac on the new architecture.

01:35:28   It's like this weird mongrel beast.

01:35:30   It's like dev kits for consoles, right? They don't,

01:35:32   they're not production systems. These

01:35:34   are not consumer systems. Apple never

01:35:36   shipped a Mac with a Pentium 4 in it, except

01:35:38   for these developer transition kits. They were all

01:35:40   like the core, you know, the core architecture

01:35:42   or whatever, but the Pentium 4

01:35:44   ones were good enough for people to do their porting work

01:35:46   because it's the same instruction set or whatever, so

01:35:48   everyone's thinking,

01:35:50   what are they going to do this time? What kind

01:35:52   of thing are they going to give

01:35:54   developers so they can

01:35:56   actually build their

01:35:58   Mac app on ARM or whatever

01:36:00   these, you know, what are these CPUs are going to be?

01:36:02   And since the rumor is

01:36:04   that these are going to be ARM Macs, everyone says, well, they don't have to worry

01:36:06   about that because developers probably already have

01:36:08   tons of ARM-based devices in their house, like they've got an

01:36:10   iPad or something, so why not

01:36:12   let them run

01:36:14   Mac OS on their iPad or something

01:36:16   because it's already ARM

01:36:18   hardware and it's probably similar enough to the

01:36:20   ARM Mac hardware that's going to come out because the rumors

01:36:22   are that the ARM Mac hardware

01:36:24   is based on the A14 chip that's going to be the next-gen

01:36:26   iPhone and all that other stuff, right? So it's not like Apple

01:36:28   is making an entirely, the rumor is that Apple is not

01:36:30   making an entirely different architecture. It's

01:36:32   all derived from the same iPhone chip that they're

01:36:34   making a million of anyway.

01:36:36   Let everybody run Mac OS

01:36:38   on their iPads or maybe even on their iPhones

01:36:40   or have it run on your iPhone

01:36:42   and have it project to an external display and all sorts

01:36:44   of theories like this.

01:36:46   They are technically

01:36:48   plausible, but

01:36:50   they don't strike me as

01:36:52   likely simply because the straightforward

01:36:54   solution of just giving people a Mac

01:36:56   with an ARM chip in it, even

01:36:58   if it's some weird slap-together

01:37:00   thing that you have to ask for back at the end,

01:37:02   Apple's done it before and it

01:37:04   worked perfectly fine. Like, if they

01:37:06   have a better solution, if they have,

01:37:08   you know, if they've already done the work to make

01:37:10   iPads do this because that's how they've been developing

01:37:12   internally, sure, maybe they could do it, but I feel like

01:37:14   Apple's going to do the thing

01:37:16   that is the most straightforward for them. And without

01:37:18   knowing for a fact that Apple has been

01:37:20   developing Mac OS and running

01:37:22   it on the iPad internally,

01:37:24   I have to think that they're going to

01:37:26   give people, give developers access to

01:37:28   something that looks and behaves like a Mac,

01:37:30   but it's got an ARM chip inside it, and

01:37:32   they'll probably want it back.

01:37:34   See, you're probably right about most

01:37:36   of that. One major difference

01:37:38   though that we have to consider is that

01:37:40   the number of Apple developers

01:37:42   is so much bigger now

01:37:44   than it was back then. And even if

01:37:46   you rule out all the iOS-only developers,

01:37:48   which is probably most of them,

01:37:50   even just the number of Mac developers

01:37:52   is way bigger now than it was in

01:37:54   2005, 2006. So

01:37:56   it wouldn't surprise me if the idea

01:37:58   of give people something that they

01:38:00   have to then give back at the end is just

01:38:02   too large of a scale to do this

01:38:04   time.

01:38:06   It would just be so, first of all

01:38:08   it would probably be incredibly wasteful

01:38:10   of all the electronics that you'd be manufacturing

01:38:12   and then having to recycle at the end of that.

01:38:14   They can let them keep it too.

01:38:16   It would be useless for you

01:38:18   because it would probably be unsupported by the next

01:38:20   actual release version of Mac OS, but you could have them

01:38:22   keep it too. But I see what you're saying about the scale.

01:38:24   Speaking of scale, didn't they do

01:38:26   something similar with Apple TV

01:38:28   development? Obviously, again, a smaller

01:38:30   user base, right? Yeah, I got one.

01:38:32   But it was, you just

01:38:34   paid a dollar because they had to charge

01:38:36   you something for some kind of accounting reason.

01:38:38   So you signed up as

01:38:40   you filed a request

01:38:42   to get one of these. And if they

01:38:44   granted it, and it was through the developer

01:38:46   account system, and if they granted your

01:38:48   request, you were

01:38:50   allowed to buy an Apple TV for one dollar.

01:38:52   And I forget

01:38:54   whether that was actually before they were

01:38:56   available. I don't think it was. I think

01:38:58   anyone else could buy them as well, but you just got yours

01:39:00   maybe like a week ahead of time or something.

01:39:02   It was obviously

01:39:04   certainly cheaper, and that was

01:39:06   the main issue there.

01:39:08   With something like this,

01:39:10   it's very possible that

01:39:12   they can't really

01:39:14   release a whole Mac to the public

01:39:16   with

01:39:18   very little software available for it.

01:39:20   Although the funny thing is, if you look at

01:39:22   how much software people run on their Macs that is not

01:39:24   made by Apple, I mean, yeah,

01:39:26   most of us run stuff that is not

01:39:28   made by Apple, but I bet Apple could sell

01:39:30   a MacBook Air tomorrow

01:39:32   that only ran their software for the

01:39:34   first few months that it was out, and it

01:39:36   wouldn't sell zero copies.

01:39:38   Microsoft ran that experiment. Microsoft did Windows

01:39:40   on Arm that had very little support

01:39:42   from third-party applications, and

01:39:44   it didn't sell that well, but I mean, it was a

01:39:46   product that they sold. Yeah, they released it.

01:39:48   So I think what's possibly

01:39:50   a more likely outcome here is

01:39:52   maybe Apple

01:39:54   sells a laptop, but only

01:39:56   like, they actually sell. This is the first

01:39:58   Arm Mac. Here it is.

01:40:00   It's a MacBook Air or something, or maybe a

01:40:02   13-inch MacBook Pro. It's something like that

01:40:04   with, you know, it's

01:40:06   like what you said, it's like, whatever the

01:40:08   current, you know, case

01:40:10   and design, it'll look exactly like

01:40:12   what we sell now, because we're not going to put any additional work

01:40:14   into this kind of beta product,

01:40:16   and it'll just have Arm guts inside

01:40:18   of it, and it'll be compatible with almost nothing,

01:40:20   but you can use it for development, and maybe they sell

01:40:22   it only through the developer portal. Like, maybe

01:40:24   you have to log into your developer account to buy it,

01:40:26   and then, you know,

01:40:28   you sell it to developers, and you,

01:40:30   maybe you even call it a

01:40:32   beta product, you know, and that way

01:40:34   you try to keep it out of the hands of

01:40:36   the general public as much as possible,

01:40:38   or at least like

01:40:40   discourage people in some way from using

01:40:42   it. Maybe it can only run software that

01:40:44   you sign with your

01:40:46   developer ID, and nothing else, like, you know,

01:40:48   somehow you make it so that

01:40:50   most regular people are not going to want to get their hands

01:40:52   on one, but then,

01:40:54   you know, otherwise it's a regular product that

01:40:56   developers can buy. Something like that, maybe.

01:40:58   Well, the way they would make it discourages, they would say

01:41:00   like, look, this is not going to be supported

01:41:02   by the next version of Mac OS, like, we're not,

01:41:04   this is not a supported machine, it's just

01:41:06   for you porting your software, from

01:41:08   that point on, like, pretend no one

01:41:10   gave back those Pentium 4s. Those

01:41:12   would have not been supported by later versions

01:41:14   of the operating system, unless Apple explicitly

01:41:16   did it, like, someone in the chat room was saying that it used

01:41:18   BIOS instead of EFI, I forget

01:41:20   if that was the case, but that was a weird machine,

01:41:22   right? And so, as long as you're upfront

01:41:24   about what you're getting into here,

01:41:26   and tell people, like, this is not,

01:41:28   don't buy this expecting to use this as your Mac,

01:41:30   that's not going to happen, this is for your,

01:41:32   you know, it's a developer transition kit, it's a dev

01:41:34   platform, and like I said with game consoles, it's

01:41:36   ample precedent, every

01:41:38   console game that's available at launch was developed

01:41:40   on a dev kit, on

01:41:42   provisional, weird, mongrel hardware

01:41:44   that everybody, you know,

01:41:46   like the whole world of console development,

01:41:48   this is how it works, you get

01:41:50   a dev kit, the dev kit

01:41:52   often is very, very

01:41:54   different from the console that's released to people,

01:41:56   you know, in hardware and software, especially

01:41:58   if you're going to be there on launch,

01:42:00   and, you know, those dev kits,

01:42:02   historically, they've actually been very

01:42:04   expensive, but they ship them to

01:42:06   developers all over the world, and, you know,

01:42:08   I don't know if there are more Mac developers

01:42:10   than there are console developers, I have to imagine there's more

01:42:12   console developers when you add, you know, Sony,

01:42:14   Microsoft, and Nintendo all together,

01:42:16   there's got to be more of them, and it's a proven

01:42:18   system, and then, again

01:42:20   in the console world, they charge you thousands

01:42:22   of dollars for these dev kits, which are

01:42:24   useless to you, essentially, especially if you have

01:42:26   one of the early ones before, you know, the

01:42:28   console actually launches, because they may

01:42:30   be, you know, have major differences

01:42:32   to the actual production hardware,

01:42:34   but that's how

01:42:36   the sausage was made, so, and again, you can't

01:42:38   buy, you can't just go into, you know,

01:42:40   Target and buy a PS5

01:42:42   dev kit, certainly now you can, you can't

01:42:44   buy a PS4 dev kit, you have to go through Sony,

01:42:46   and you have to be a developer, and, you know, so

01:42:48   I feel like there are established systems to this.

01:42:50   The developer transition kit was weird

01:42:52   because it was a rental and they wanted you to return it,

01:42:54   but then, in some ways, it's kind of an appley move

01:42:56   where they don't want these things

01:42:58   out there in the world, you know what I mean?

01:43:00   And that's the firmest

01:43:02   way to explain to people, this

01:43:04   will not be your Mac for the next five years, like

01:43:06   we're not going to support it, just pretend it

01:43:08   didn't exist, it is a developer transition

01:43:10   kit, it's a kit, it's not a

01:43:12   Mac, it's just a kit.

01:43:14   The reason I think people come back to the iPad

01:43:16   thing is, like I said, I think the only reason

01:43:18   they will do that is

01:43:20   if they've already been doing that internally, if the way

01:43:22   they've developed this is internally,

01:43:24   rather than making a dev kit, they're like

01:43:26   well, we've already got iPad hardware, so why don't we

01:43:28   just use that as a dev kit inside Apple?

01:43:30   If they've already done all that work,

01:43:32   then yeah, they'll just do that for external

01:43:34   people as well, but I

01:43:36   question whether they would do that work internally, because

01:43:38   internally is exactly where they make these weird

01:43:40   transition kit things, so

01:43:42   I'll be very surprised if the iPad

01:43:44   is the transition kit, but if it is,

01:43:46   that's got to be something they've been

01:43:48   doing internally for, you know,

01:43:50   for a long time, and they're just

01:43:52   saying, we're going to leverage that work,

01:43:54   why would we repeat that work

01:43:56   with something that looks more like a Mac?

01:43:58   Certainly the iPads are fast enough, and we've

01:44:00   already got this cool keyboard thing, and we're all

01:44:02   set to go, it's already a weird

01:44:04   not so floppy laptop,

01:44:06   so let's just go with that, but

01:44:08   we'll see. Gruber had a big post

01:44:10   about how un-Apple-like it seems,

01:44:12   and how it would be weird to have a touch screen with an OS

01:44:14   that isn't touch-based, and

01:44:16   when I read that Gruber post,

01:44:18   often on

01:44:20   Daring Fireball there's a post that I will read,

01:44:22   and nod my head, and I'm like, I agree with every single

01:44:24   part of this, but when I get to

01:44:26   the end of it, I start to have flashbacks

01:44:28   of the earlier Daring Fireball post from years ago

01:44:30   where I agree with every single part of it, but it

01:44:32   turned out, like, all of it is sound, logical

01:44:34   reasoning, but it turned out to be wrong for

01:44:36   like, because like, Apple gonna Apple,

01:44:38   sometimes they just do something different,

01:44:40   it's like, boy, I agree with that post,

01:44:42   everything made perfect sense, and it does,

01:44:44   but it's like, yeah, we just decide

01:44:46   to do something different, it's like, oh well,

01:44:48   that's the difficulty of predicting

01:44:50   an Apple, it's just an organization full of people, and

01:44:52   sometimes decisions happen one way or another

01:44:54   based on things you don't know about, or just sometimes

01:44:56   whim, like, it's like when you do,

01:44:58   you're trying to make a decision, do the big pros and cons

01:45:00   column, it can be misleading,

01:45:02   and you're like, look, I've got all these pros

01:45:04   and very few cons, but like, the

01:45:06   second con down is may cause death,

01:45:08   and you look at the list, and it's like,

01:45:10   if you did a blog post

01:45:12   that just showed the pros, you'd be like,

01:45:14   wow, this is a slam dunk, look at all these

01:45:16   pros, they all make sense, they're all logical,

01:45:18   but if you don't dwell on this one con that's like

01:45:20   may cause death, eh,

01:45:22   you know, so anyway, I'm not saying the iPad

01:45:24   developer transition kit may cause

01:45:26   death, but, you know, it really depends on how much

01:45:28   you feel, how you feel about

01:45:30   that keyboard, and, you know,

01:45:32   touching the screen for you on your Mac.

01:45:34   I

01:45:36   received a text message

01:45:38   from someone inside your house, John,

01:45:40   and it said something along the lines of

01:45:42   I have never been more tempted to touch

01:45:44   John's screen than I am right now.

01:45:46   It

01:45:48   made me so happy.

01:45:50   And I believe I told this individual

01:45:52   that they should not,

01:45:54   and even though you were bad cop that

01:45:56   week, I still didn't think that they should.

01:45:58   That's how you know I love you, John.

01:46:00   No, no one should touch my screen.

01:46:02   Why would anyone do that?

01:46:04   I don't know. I have no idea. I can't

01:46:06   think of a thousand different reasons, John.

01:46:08   Was that on, I forget, was that on this show or on Rekt

01:46:10   ifs where I talked about it on my screen? It must have been the last episode on this show, right?

01:46:12   It was this show, you mentioned that it's never been touched.

01:46:14   Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

01:46:16   Why break the streak? I can fix that.

01:46:18   No, you can't, you're way over there.

01:46:20   Social distancing is saving my screen.

01:46:22   Oh my god.

01:46:24   Thanks to our sponsor this week,

01:46:26   Notion, and please give to the charities we link to in the show notes.

01:46:28   And finally, thank you to our new members.

01:46:30   That's really great if you signed up, and we really appreciate it.

01:46:32   So thank you very much, and we will talk to you next week.

01:46:34   Now the show is over,

01:46:36   they didn't even mean to begin,

01:46:38   'cause it was accidental.

01:46:40   Oh, it was accidental.

01:46:42   John didn't do any research,

01:46:44   Marco and Casey wouldn't let him,

01:46:46   'cause it was accidental.

01:46:48   Oh, it was accidental.

01:46:50   And you can't do any research,

01:46:52   Marco and Casey wouldn't let him,

01:46:54   'cause it was accidental.

01:46:56   Oh, it was accidental.

01:46:58   And you can't do any research,

01:47:00   Marco and Casey wouldn't let him,

01:47:02   'cause it was accidental.

01:47:04   And you can find the show notes at atp.fm.

01:47:08   And if you're into Twitter,

01:47:10   you can follow them at

01:47:13   C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

01:47:17   So that's Casey List M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:47:21   N-T Marco Arment S-I-R-A-C

01:47:26   U-S-A-C-Racusa

01:47:29   It's accidental.

01:47:32   They didn't mean to.

01:47:35   Accidental.

01:47:37   Tech podcast, so long.

01:47:42   Now we're in the after show and I can tell the most obnoxious/funny/still obnoxious idea

01:47:49   I had for the pricing tiers, you know, so Tiff came up with the 8/16/32 thing

01:47:54   and we were like, "Oh, we didn't want to do that, let's just start simple, blah blah blah."

01:47:57   Wait a second. What if we have a thing where the more members we get,

01:48:03   the higher pricing tiers you unlock, right?

01:48:07   So to be clear, it's not like when Pinboard launched,

01:48:11   it's like every member that subscribed added like a cent or a tenth of a cent or something to the price

01:48:17   for the next member. So it's not that. You're saying you could still sign up,

01:48:22   but you would have the ability to pay more money as everything went up.

01:48:27   It's not even that. The people would sign up and the original would just have the one pricing tier

01:48:31   and they'd all sign up at that one pricing tier, but then after you get a hundred members,

01:48:35   you unlock the second pricing tier. Now those people who already signed up,

01:48:38   they got their pricing tier and it's still there, but they've unlocked the ability for future people

01:48:43   to pay more if they want.

01:48:46   It's totally nonsensical.

01:48:48   The more members you get, the higher pricing tiers get unlocked.

01:48:52   It doesn't mean anyone ever has to pay them, they just get unlocked.

01:48:55   I see a lot of stuff like this in video games. You're like, "Unlock harder difficulties?"

01:48:58   It's like, "Why am I unlocking a harder difficulty? I have just enough trouble getting through this."

01:49:02   "Congratulations! You've unlocked nightmare mode. I want to unlock nightmare mode.

01:49:06   It took me a week to get through the hard mode."

01:49:09   Again, Tiff enjoys that. But anyway, I thought it was funny,

01:49:12   the idea of the more people sign up, the more you unlock,

01:49:15   I think it would be a curiosity to say, "Will anyone?"

01:49:18   If you unlock the $128 a month mode, it's like, "Will anyone sign up for that?"

01:49:22   And then each week we could say, "So far, no takers in the $128 a month."

01:49:26   "But if we get more members, we'll unlock $256."

01:49:30   One of the biggest reasons why we decided not to have multiple pricing tiers

01:49:37   is eight bucks a month, we recognize that's slightly premium

01:49:42   for what we're offering, for what other podcasts and YouTube channels charge for their Patreons.

01:49:47   We're right at or slightly above the basic level.

01:49:51   I feel like $5 and $10 a month are very common price points for these kinds of things.

01:49:55   So $8 is right there in the middle.

01:49:57   I think I would have a hard time sleeping at night if somebody was paying us $64 a month for this.

01:50:05   I wouldn't have any trouble at all. I was the proponent of the open text field.

01:50:09   Just type a number. Type a number you want to pay us per month and we will accept that.

01:50:13   No one's going to actually do that, so this is just funny things to think about.

01:50:17   But then again, we thought that idea of putting wheels on a shirt for $4 actually was funny too.

01:50:21   And that was the most popular shirt, because people are weird.

01:50:24   That's true.

01:50:25   Anyway, we're starting simple, but we have a lot of ideas.

01:50:29   Real-time follow-up with regard to shirts, by the way.

01:50:31   If I recall correctly, Alex Cox sent me a text message at exactly 8.01 Eastern time saying, "Is the shirt still available?"

01:50:42   Which I thought was extremely well played.

01:50:44   I was very grumbly, but I thought it was very well done.

01:50:48   But I definitely did get a surprising amount of tweets that did not strike me as trolling.

01:50:54   People saying, "Oh gosh, I did forget. I knew I was going to forget, and I forgot."

01:50:59   So all you people who are responsible and actually buy when we ask you to, I appreciate that.

01:51:05   Because you will be surprised how many people say, "Oh, oh no. Oh, it was me this month."

01:51:11   Or this season, I guess I should say. "It was me. It was me this time."

01:51:14   It was almost me this time.

01:51:16   I always go down to the wire.

01:51:18   It has been me. Like I've said, in the past, I've forgotten to buy our own shirts.

01:51:22   My kids wear them. And sometimes you're like, "Oh, I'll get around to it."

01:51:26   What did I miss? I think I missed the... Remember we did the multicolor shirts where it was all different colors?

01:51:31   I forgot to order those.

01:51:33   Yeah. I ordered all my stuff for this within eight hours of it ending.

01:51:38   I think I was the first of us because we all use the same account so we can get it at cost.

01:51:44   And I think I was the first one of the three of us to do it.

01:51:46   And I was, I thought, eight hours out.

01:51:48   So maybe I was more than eight hours, but I certainly didn't think I was...

01:51:52   I didn't have a lot of extra time.

01:51:54   I definitely procrastinated.

01:51:56   Normally I order one of everything at the beginning of any sale because what you don't want is for somebody to get to the site and see that there's been zero sales.

01:52:04   That just looks bad.

01:52:06   I always want to put in any of our orders first before we announce it to the public so that way they get there and say, "Oh, look, people are buying this. It's happening."

01:52:15   Because you don't want there to be a big zero there.

01:52:17   That's why we all signed up for ATB member accounts before you came to the site.

01:52:21   Yep, I signed up for the first one before I told anybody, "Hey, here's the link."

01:52:25   I signed up for the second one and then I deleted it.

01:52:27   Yep.

01:52:29   Hey, you got a test if account deletion works.

01:52:31   Yeah, well, you could just like...

01:52:33   Now that we've deleted those numbers, you can just assign two to the audio increment column that probably has like seven in it for my thing now.

01:52:40   There is no auto increment column in this. This is a random ID.

01:52:43   Such a weirdo.

01:52:45   What?

01:52:47   There's the UUID people and there's the auto increment people and I am an auto increment person. Sorry.

01:52:52   To be fair, this is not a UUID. It's a random integer. There's a difference.

01:52:56   Why are you doing... That's making me even more upset.

01:52:59   Well, everyone, it's your job to have so many members sign up that it shows Marko why it's a bad idea to use a random integer as a unique key in a table.

01:53:07   Why?

01:53:09   It's a really big integer.

01:53:11   Yeah, that's what everybody says.

01:53:13   There's a reason UUIDs exist.

01:53:15   It's a really big integer. It'll be fine.

01:53:17   Everybody, now we need to have what, like two and a half billion sign ups and then we will show Marko the error of his ways.

01:53:25   It's not 32 bit.

01:53:27   64 bit, sure. Okay, well, anyway, there's a reason UUIDs exist. Doesn't MySQL have native support for UUID columns?

01:53:32   Probably.

01:53:34   Well, you're just making it... Yeah, okay. All right.

01:53:36   There's a lot of support for native storage of slightly complex value types, but you're generally better off not using that support because it's weird.

01:53:45   When they say native, though, it's probably all strings under the covers anyway, knowing MySQL.

01:53:49   Yeah, right.

01:53:51   It's not actually native, packed binary support for UUIDs like real databases have. It's always just like, oh, well, there's some code that will generate a thing, but we store it as a string in a var char col.

01:54:00   I just went to our member admin page. We don't have anything on there yet, huh?

01:54:04   Nothing.

01:54:05   I want to see account, man. You got to give me account.

01:54:07   I can tell you. We have 117 members so far.

01:54:10   Hey, that's excellent. I'm really pleased by that.

01:54:12   How many people are on the stream? Like 400?

01:54:15   Oh, that's brutal.

01:54:17   I just want to know. I feel like the people who listen live are absolute biggest fans because some of them are up in the middle of the night or in early morning in weird times because of time zones.

01:54:27   So if you're listening to the live stream and listen to all this BS and everything, you are very likely to be a super fan who would at least consider becoming a member.

01:54:35   So this is like the best case scenario for signups.

01:54:39   I mean, in all fairness, we have a like 25% conversion rate among this group.

01:54:43   All right. That's what I'm saying. That's the best case. Yeah.

01:54:46   Obviously, 25% of listeners will not sign up.

01:54:49   That would be amazing. I don't think I've ever seen any kind of optional payment for anything that was above like 10%.

01:54:57   Yeah, you won't break double digits for sure. I'm not sure we're going to break 1%.

01:55:02   This is another thing we've discussed endlessly. Optimism versus pessimism. How many people are going to want to sign up for the membership? So we'll see.

01:55:08   Yeah. Casey basically thinks no one's going to sign up. I think everyone's going to sign up. And Jon's kind of in the middle.

01:55:14   That's an exaggeration.

01:55:16   I was the most pessimistic for a long time until we started talking to other people who had membership programs and learned what their conversions are.

01:55:24   And I'm like, "All right. Well, I feel like we could probably do about as well as them."

01:55:28   So I was super pessimistic in the beginning, but I've been coming around. So you're right. I am kind of in the middle now.

01:55:35   Yeah. I would love to get 5%. That's kind of my target of like, "I think we can probably do it."

01:55:41   I don't think it's going to be super easy to get 5%, but I don't think it's out of reach.

01:55:45   I think that's kind of my goal.

01:55:48   Marco, ever the optimist.

01:55:50   But that would be a pretty good goal. But if you look at Hello Internet, other nearby shows, and their proportion of...

01:55:58   But it's different because everyone offers different stuff. Some people offer nothing, and it's just pay to support us.

01:56:04   Can we tell the live streamers the thing that I didn't mention in the show that I desperately wanted to, but you didn't want to?

01:56:09   Oh, the Ask ATP priority thing? That was a terrible idea.

01:56:12   No, the CB thing.

01:56:14   Oh, yeah, yeah.

01:56:16   Yes, I can mention it?

01:56:18   Yeah, yeah, go for it.

01:56:19   I think that's fair.

01:56:20   So someone mentioned in the chat before, discounts on merch. I think that we're absolutely going to do that.

01:56:25   We don't have a merch sale now, so it's irrelevant, which is part of why we didn't want to talk about it.

01:56:29   But if you're listening to the live stream right now and you're wondering, "Hey, are they going to have merch discount codes for members?"

01:56:35   Yeah, we are planning to do that.

01:56:37   Yeah, we already worked it out with the Cotton Bureau and everything, but the problem was that we didn't want to launch a membership immediately after our merch sale ended and say, "Next time you sell merch, you can get a little discount."

01:56:52   I mean, I wanted to do that because I think people understand the arrow of time and can say, "Yeah, I understand. You didn't launch the membership until after the sale was over."

01:56:59   This is not ideal timing, okay? Coronavirus kind of forced our hand a little bit on this.

01:57:05   We'd been talking about it for a while, so things could kind of rush. But anyway, if you're wondering if I sign up for a membership, is there a possibility of discounts on merch in the future? The answer is yes.

01:57:13   Yeah, and we know the timing on this is weird. Right now is not a great time to be launching a whole new thing.

01:57:21   I was like, "Hey, everyone give us extra money!" Not the greatest time.

01:57:25   But we're in it for the long haul here. There's no time like the present, so we understand that it's weird.

01:57:33   Everything's a bit weird now.

01:57:35   And we didn't want to take any time out of our WWDC show to do it then.

01:57:40   Yeah, definitely not.

01:57:41   So we wanted to have it in place by then because we know we're going to be very busy with all the WWDC content for probably weeks afterwards.

01:57:49   So yeah, it's a whole thing. There were a lot of considerations that went into this timing, even though it seems like it sucks.

01:57:55   Basically, it sucks less than other timing would have sucked. That would be nearby.

01:58:00   I would like to state for the record that I am not above... I'll call them stretch goals for lack of a better terminology,

01:58:08   but if Jon really does want to play Destiny with Marco and me and do it in some way that we can have people watch it on Twitch or something like that,

01:58:17   I don't know what the number is, but if enough people become members, okay, fine, sure. You want to make me suffer? Fine.

01:58:23   I'm volunteering both of you for this. The only reason we're not doing it right now is because I don't know how.

01:58:28   That's the only reason we're not doing it right now. And Tiff probably knows how.

01:58:32   We'll do that as soon as we can make Cooking with Jon. I wanted to make a cooking show with Jon, not me cooking, just filming Jon cooking.

01:58:41   That's harder than what I... But I'm just explaining you just need to show screen sharing. Now it's just a thing with cameras in a kitchen.

01:58:48   I know. But still, imagine how good Cooking with Jon would be.

01:58:52   No, I disagree. If you're going to do it, then it needs to be Jon tries to teach Casey how to cook.

01:58:58   Oh, yeah. Well, that's the whole Destiny angle is I'm trying to teach you how to play Destiny. That's the funny part.

01:59:04   Jon teaches Casey to cook over Zoom.

01:59:07   Right? Do you remember when we were all at Jon's house and I shredded or grated a cheese unsatisfactorily?

01:59:13   Oh, yes.

01:59:14   And he gave me like 10 minutes of crap about it.

01:59:16   Like someone who had never been in a kitchen before.

01:59:18   That's about accurate. And so can you imagine, like I will commit that I don't know what the number is, but I am ready, willing, well, maybe not able, but I'm ready and willing to figure out how to make this all possible so that if we get enough members...

01:59:34   No, the best thing would be to do what Queer Eye does, where like Jon teaches Casey something about cooking and then Casey has to do it and Jon has to watch, but he can't say anything.

01:59:45   That's brutal.

01:59:49   Anyway, you're distracting from my Destiny idea, which I think is much more feasible.

01:59:53   And Tiff knows how to do all this game screaming stuff. And maybe when the PS5 is out, like we'll set something up and we can figure it out.

01:59:59   But that's like in the distant future when we get our act together, we have all sorts of wacky ideas for things that don't make sense to do, except for if there's this group of people who are like paying to be members.

02:00:10   And that would be like, you know, member specific. Again, like for the chat room people, if you have ideas, even though we've discussed like probably all of them, send them in because it's like you're essentially voting by like, not that this is democracy, but like if a million people say they want this or don't want that, that will influence what we may or may not do in the future.

02:00:28   So if you have ideas about member specific stuff that you want, feel free. The only thing that's really off the table is removing things from the show for the free people.

02:00:36   Because as we said, we don't want to do that. So like, you know, oh, I think you should make the after show, put it behind a paywall. No, that we're not doing that.

02:00:44   Yeah, we thought of that. But we said, let's do it. Right. So, you know, that's not that. Again, if 90% of our listeners become members, you know, we'll put the whole show behind a paywall, but that's not gonna happen. So don't worry about it.

02:00:57   Yeah. Some of you are asking for the unedited live stream, similar to what the incomparable does with their bootleg feeds. That is something we've talked about.

02:01:06   We've actually talked about that more than arguably anything else.

02:01:10   I really don't want to do it because I think it sucks. But if I don't know.

02:01:15   Yeah, you can imagine listeners in the live stream, you know why Marco doesn't want to do it because it's gonna sound crappy and it's not gonna be edited and like, you know, everyone who listens to the live stream knows what the live stream is like. I was in favor of it because it's a thing we're doing for free anyway.

02:01:29   And we would still do it for free. By the way, we would still stream it for free. Like everyone who's listening now, you'd still be able to listen for free and do whatever you want. But this would be like, what if you're not awake at that time and you still want to hear the garbage live stream?

02:01:41   There would be a feed with the garbage live stream in it for members. But maybe nobody wants that. I don't know. Like anyway, we started simple. We're thinking of things. We'll figure it out as we go along. But if that's something that you want, write in and tell us. Baby steps.

02:01:57   We still gotta figure all this stuff out and get it churning along and see how many support requests we're gonna get from people who can't figure out the website or whatever.

02:02:08   [beeping]