381: Uncomfortable Truths


00:00:00   So you two are probably slightly too young to remember this, but when I was a kid there was tons

00:00:06   of stuff like on TV and books and everything about Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster and UFOs. Did you

00:00:13   catch the tail end of this craze maybe? Like probably the same books in your school library,

00:00:17   but anyway I used to watch these things all the time on TV. It was like Secrets of the Unknown or

00:00:22   that thing hosted by Leonard Nimoy and they would, you know, talk about each one show about each one

00:00:27   of the things. They'd show that same blurry picture of Bigfoot or they'd show that little like the

00:00:30   silhouette of the Loch Ness Monster, like one or two famous pictures of that, or like the UFO shows

00:00:35   that have like that same blurry picture of a hubcap or like these videos of lights going by

00:00:40   or, you know, this blurry black and white photograph of something. And I would just watch

00:00:45   this stuff for hours. Like they could do like an hour-long network special with like one photograph

00:00:50   and they would just milk that photograph for all it was worth, right? And I was fascinated by it

00:00:54   because it's like there's these secret things in the world that nobody knows about, but people

00:00:58   have seen like they do tons of interviews. Like I saw the lights in the sky and it came down to the

00:01:02   into the clearing in the woods and, you know, plenty of that. But then just like the one picture,

00:01:06   right? Or like the one outline of Loch Ness Monster, but all the tales from the people who

00:01:10   are around the Loch Ness Monster, they heard about it. And, you know, it's, we still do this,

00:01:13   I suppose, with a certain other kind of mystery things where you just stretch out a tiny bit of

00:01:18   content for, you know, an hour at a time. But if you had told like, you know, the kid version of me,

00:01:24   that someday people like everybody would have a phone in their pocket, you know, it's like,

00:01:29   we're gonna get that Loch Ness Monster now. Like UFOs will not escape us now. Like the only reason

00:01:34   we don't have this footage is because you're just out in the woods, you know, you're on a camping

00:01:37   trip, who has their camera with them? Or if you have your camera with you, like it's in your camera

00:01:41   bag or something and the UFO goes by and you miss it, right? Same thing with Bigfoot. You're out

00:01:45   hiking in the woods, you can't get your camera out in time or who even has a camera with them. But as

00:01:49   soon as we, you know, if you told me that everybody's gonna have a camera, we are gonna have so

00:01:54   many Bigfoot pictures, we're gonna have so many UFO pictures, we will have like the Loch Ness Monster

00:01:58   will be like documented and high def video. It would be amazing. That's what I would have said.

00:02:04   But of course, here we are today where pretty much everybody does have a phone in their pocket. And

00:02:09   what happened when most of the world got a phone in their pocket in the form of a smartphone,

00:02:14   or a camera, sorry, a camera in their pocket in the form of a smartphone was we didn't see

00:02:19   tons more pictures of UFOs. We didn't see tons more pictures of Bigfoot or the Loch Ness Monster.

00:02:25   What we did see were tons and tons more pictures of police beating people up. That's what we saw.

00:02:33   Not what you would have expected to see, not what the child would have expected to see.

00:02:38   And this is not a new original thought. I've heard this many times in the past, but I dwell on it.

00:02:44   I think about it from time to time because it is a strange facet of technology, right? From the

00:02:51   Rodney King tape, which I think was probably VHS or whatever the heck it was to today's smartphone

00:02:56   videos of police brutality that we see everywhere online. Technology has made what has been a

00:03:01   reality for centuries visible to everybody. And I think most of us don't like what we see.

00:03:06   This country has a racism problem, and it has a policing problem. And whatever we've done in the

00:03:13   past to fix this clearly hasn't worked. We need to try something new.

00:03:17   Yeah, and I'm sorry if talking about this offends anyone. It's not my intention, and I'm not

00:03:25   anywhere near an expert in any of this. So I'm actually very nervous and uncomfortable to talk

00:03:30   about this. But that is a good thing right now. A lot of us need to be made a little nervous and

00:03:36   uncomfortable right now because silence and complacency is worse. So I'm going to start by

00:03:44   a quick comment on something that's very uncomfortable for a lot of us to discuss,

00:03:47   and that's privilege. When I was first accused of not acknowledging my privilege a few years ago,

00:03:52   I didn't know really what it was. I hadn't really thought about it. And I felt a bit defensive when

00:03:57   people started saying that, as if I was being attacked unreasonably for something that I didn't

00:04:01   even think I did anything. And I also felt that it denied the work I've done to get to where I am,

00:04:08   because I come from a lower middle class, single parent family, and I've worked really hard to earn

00:04:15   everything I have. But a huge degree of privilege was under all of that. I'm a white, cisgender,

00:04:24   heterosexual male. I was born in the US. I was raised Catholic. I was put through decent schools.

00:04:29   There's basically nothing about me that is widely persecuted by any group. I don't get stereotyped.

00:04:36   I don't get treated unfairly by pretty much any part of society. I mean, I'm a nerd. That's never

00:04:40   been great. But even that these days is fairly reasonable. And I had it hard growing up in

00:04:47   various ways. And so accusing me of being privileged felt like it denied me of the ways it was hard for

00:04:53   me. And if discussions about privilege frustrate or anger you, that's understandable because it's

00:04:59   uncomfortable. It's a whole uncomfortable truth under everything, but it doesn't mean it's not

00:05:04   there. And we need to face uncomfortable truths a lot of the time. And privilege doesn't mean that

00:05:11   you don't have problems or challenges in your life. But it does mean that you don't have certain

00:05:17   types of problems and challenges that a lot of other people have. And you probably don't even

00:05:23   ever need to think about those problems because of some inherent aspect of your genes or where you

00:05:29   were born or who your parents were. And that is absolutely a real thing. Being privileged in

00:05:35   certain ways doesn't mean that your life is easy or perfect. And it doesn't mean that you're a bad

00:05:39   person, or that you need to apologize for who you are. But it is a necessary concept to keep in mind

00:05:46   that you have advantages that other people don't. And that part of your privilege is that you

00:05:51   probably never even knew about it until someone pointed it out to you because you never even had

00:05:55   to think about it. Now the flip side to that is that a lot of people are unfairly disadvantaged

00:06:01   in society merely because of who they are. Now I don't need to be afraid to wear a hoodie,

00:06:11   or go for a jog, or hold an object in my hand, or be in my own house in my own bed.

00:06:18   I've never had to fear for my life if I saw a police officer. I've been pulled over a few times

00:06:25   earlier in life for minor driving infractions, and I was never terrified that my life could be about

00:06:31   to end. And the last time I was pulled over was a decade ago or more, and I was let off with just

00:06:37   a warning. And now I'm a white man in my late 30s. I am invisible to the police. Part of the immense

00:06:45   privilege I've been given is that I don't need to think about the police at all in my daily life,

00:06:50   except occasionally if I see a cop I know I'll wave hello and they'll wave back.

00:06:54   Millions of people out there are not so lucky. Now being a police officer, you know, it's a risky

00:07:03   and it's a hard and it's a thankless job. You know, they're just people, and many cops, possibly

00:07:08   even most of them, are good people. I know a few cops myself and they seem like good ones. They

00:07:13   seem like good people. Some of our listeners are even cops. You know, you've written in before.

00:07:16   But there's a lot of cops out there who are assholes at best, and often violent assholes.

00:07:25   Many cops out there act more like wannabe military soldiers who are battling against the people

00:07:32   they're ostensibly there to protect and serve. Like they're at war against their own citizens.

00:07:36   And even honestly making an analogy to soldiers here feels like an insult to actual military

00:07:41   soldiers who are usually much better disciplined and probably more accountable to their actions

00:07:44   than bad police officers in the US are. And there aren't just a handful of bad police officers in

00:07:50   the US. There is something deeply toxic in police culture and their attitude and the power and

00:07:58   political structures around the police that not only seems to prevent bad behavior from being

00:08:03   punished or weeded out, but actually cultivates and protects bad behavior that's there. And bad

00:08:10   police officers have been unnecessarily assaulting and executing citizens that they're supposed to

00:08:14   be protecting for decades, especially black people. And the system of weeding them out or bringing

00:08:21   them to justice does not work well enough. And when you think about the effects of an

00:08:28   under-accountable and under-supervised police force, it's especially damaging because the

00:08:33   police are where you go if someone is hurting or threatening you. So if it's the police themselves

00:08:38   doing it, most people have no realistic recourse available to them. So because of the police's role

00:08:46   and their power, they don't just need to be held responsibly accountable for like a basic level of

00:08:50   accountability. They need to be held to an especially high standard, way higher than

00:08:55   average people, but instead in most places in the US they're held to a much lower standard

00:09:00   than most people are. And nobody in the US suffers more destruction by militant, violent,

00:09:09   unaccountable bad police officers than black people. Now, a well-functioning society tries

00:09:16   to put everyone on a level playing field. They try to neutralize as many unfair sources of privilege

00:09:23   as possible so that everybody has the same rights and the same opportunities. And I don't know how

00:09:28   anybody can look around the US and think that we are anywhere near that. We do not have a

00:09:33   well-functioning society. We have a lot of work to do in many different areas, especially how the US

00:09:41   treats black people. And a few years ago when the phrase "black lives matter" came up, it's such a

00:09:49   simple and elegant and powerful phrase. "Black lives matter." It's not about harming anyone.

00:09:56   It isn't about putting anyone else down. It's a simple, powerful statement of fact that our

00:10:01   society unfortunately needs to be reminded of. "Black lives matter." And hearing that

00:10:07   made so many people so uncomfortable and so angry that they had to immediately counter it with

00:10:15   things like "all lives matter" or the even worse police glorifying version of "blue lives matter."

00:10:20   And not only do those completely miss the point, they actively fight against it. And in most cases,

00:10:28   it's not people being ignorant. They actually intend to fight against it. Most people who

00:10:32   have a problem hearing the phrase "black lives matter" are refusing to acknowledge that the US

00:10:39   treats black lives as more expendable or less valuable than white lives. That's a hard thing

00:10:44   to think about, but the reality, actual data from many sources over many decades supports that.

00:10:51   Nobody should have to assert that their life matters. But the sad truth is that black people

00:11:00   still do. And that's awful. Nobody should react negatively or defensively when someone else

00:11:08   asserts that their life matters. And yet that's how a lot of people react when black people are

00:11:12   the ones making that assertion. Our country is still extremely racist. We have an overtly

00:11:21   racist president who empowers and encourages white supremacists in 2020. That is completely

00:11:30   ridiculous, but it's true. We have an incredibly long way to go. Black lives matter. And if that

00:11:39   makes you uncomfortable to hear, you need to take a moment to examine that. You need to really,

00:11:43   truly examine why you have a problem with people fighting to get their society to behave as though

00:11:50   their lives matter. Imagine if you had to fight to get your society to value your life simply

00:11:56   because of who you are. And then consider why we let our society become and remain so dysfunctional

00:12:05   that anyone needs to fight for their life to matter. Black lives matter.

00:12:12   Now, we have the immense privilege of being able to talk about tech stuff for the next couple of

00:12:20   hours, providing us and you an escape from the really bad realities of what's going on out there.

00:12:27   So we're going to try our best to do it and to keep the show going as we've done every week for

00:12:32   the last seven years. Try to make the world better with whatever way you can. Please try to help. Try

00:12:40   to become aware of what's actually going on. Vote when the time comes to vote. And in the meantime,

00:12:46   help any way you possibly can. Yeah, Marco speaks for all three of us in saying that black lives

00:12:54   matter. I know that all three of us are deeply upset and concerned with what is going on.

00:13:01   We're doing what we can by talking to all of you, amongst other things, to try to do our little part

00:13:08   in making things better. I don't know what to say to someone who finds that black lives matter is a

00:13:19   controversial statement. Like to me, this is the way it should be. Everyone should be equal.

00:13:26   Everyone is not equal, unfortunately, but they should be. And I personally, now I will not speak

00:13:31   for the three of us. I have no time or tolerance for people who feel otherwise. And I just wanted

00:13:36   to thank both Marco and John for saying so much more eloquently than I could have exactly the

00:13:42   things that I am thinking as well. To try to pivot this a little bit toward technology, the three of

00:13:48   us thought it would be nice to read a little bit of a memo that Tim Cook had written to Apple

00:13:53   employees about George Floyd and kind of what's been going on. We're not going to read the whole

00:13:58   thing, but I do think there are a couple of passages that are really important. And it is

00:14:05   coming from a gay man who has certainly put up with his own difficulties growing up and even today,

00:14:13   the things that I don't have to worry about. Just like I don't have to worry about being white.

00:14:18   I don't have to worry about being white. I am a heterosexual, cisgendered white dude. It's pretty

00:14:24   easy for me. It's pretty easy by comparison. So I thought Tim's memo was very interesting. Let me

00:14:30   read a couple of passages. "To stand together, we must stand up for one another and recognize the

00:14:35   fear, hurt, and outrage rightly provoked by the senseless killing of George Floyd and a much

00:14:40   longer history of racism. That painful past is still present today, not only in the form of

00:14:47   violence, but in the everyday experience of deeply rooted discrimination." And he goes on a little

00:14:55   later, "To create change, we have to re-examine our own views and actions in light of a pain that

00:15:01   is deeply felt, but too often ignored. Issues of human dignity will not abide standing on the

00:15:08   sidelines. To our colleagues in the Black community, we see you. You matter and your lives matter.

00:15:15   This is a moment when many people may want nothing more than a return to normalcy or to a status quo

00:15:20   that is only comfortable if we avert our gaze from injustice. As difficult as it may be to admit,

00:15:26   that desire is itself a sign of privilege. George Floyd's death is shocking and tragic proof that we

00:15:33   must aim far higher than a quote unquote normal future and build one that lives up to the highest

00:15:38   ideals of equality and justice." So Tim goes on to say, "Apple is donating to Equal Justice

00:15:45   Initiative among others and offering a two-to-one match for employee donations in June, especially

00:15:50   if you're an Apple employee, but certainly any of you listeners. If you have a couple of bucks to

00:15:55   scrape together, I think the Equal Justice Initiative is a great place to throw a few dollars.

00:16:01   And if there's other ways that you can help, I absolutely think that that's a great thing to do,

00:16:08   now. Jon, particularly with a little contribution from Marco and I, has put together a whole ton of

00:16:14   links in the show notes that all three of us recommend. And you can, as your homework,

00:16:19   you can go through and look at these links and try to learn a little bit more. Certainly,

00:16:25   I need to look at some of these links that I have not seen before. And I need to learn a little bit

00:16:28   more. We all do. And by the way, about the donation thing, like that's part of it. If you're listening

00:16:34   to this, a lot of people are like, "Oh, I care about these things. And I agree with you, but I

00:16:37   don't know what to do." I think that's a common feeling. What do I do? I don't know what to do.

00:16:41   We got to do something. I guess I can tweet a hashtag, but honestly, what can I actually do?

00:16:45   So that's kind of what these notes are about. And I was personally in a similar situation.

00:16:50   One of the things that I know I can do is give money. But the question is, "Okay,

00:16:54   what do I give money to? Paralyzed by choice. Look at all these different places." And it's like,

00:16:57   you just have to give it somewhere. And what I personally did, not that I next time recommend

00:17:02   this, I used Apple as a proxy to say, "Well, I bet Apple's not going to give their own money

00:17:08   to some fake fly-by-night charity that doesn't actually do the good work that it claims to do."

00:17:13   So I gave money to the Equal Justice Initiative. Maybe that's foolish, but honestly, it's better

00:17:18   than just being paralyzed by choice and being not sure if you're sending it to the right place or

00:17:22   whatever. Apple's giving it to that. I didn't get it to do one match, unfortunately. But

00:17:27   that's what I did. And these links in the show notes are trying to help answer the question of,

00:17:34   "I don't know what to do. What should I do? And how should I do it?" Maybe you don't want to or

00:17:39   can't give money, but you can give time or you can just learn about things or whatever. So there's

00:17:45   going to be a ton of links. There might be better ones if you have suggestions. You can send them

00:17:49   and we can add them to the show notes or whatever, or just tweet them to people. But I think they

00:17:53   answer a lot of common questions. I'm just going to go down and read the titles of them. It'll help

00:17:58   say what kind of links there are. First one is "11 Things You Can Do to Help Black Lives Matter

00:18:01   and Police Violence." Everyone loves listicles, right? Just give me the list. And it's not 10,

00:18:06   it's 11. "How to Safely and Ethically Film Policemen's Misconduct." At the top of the show,

00:18:11   we're talking about the ubiquity of filming. There are things to know about how to do that safely and

00:18:18   ethically. And so there's an article on it. "How to be an activist when you're unable to attend

00:18:22   protests." If you can't go to a protest, you can do other things. "How to Protect

00:18:26   Protests Safely in the Age of Surveillance." If you are at a protest, how do you protect yourself?

00:18:32   We know that there's tons of ways that third party companies and the government can track you,

00:18:39   and this will help you counteract some of that. "Books about Race and Racism." Here's a big list

00:18:44   of books. If you want to sit down with a book and read and learn about this, there's a lot to learn,

00:18:47   and there are a lot of really good books on it. There are podcasts. Hey, surprise, you like podcasts.

00:18:52   There are podcasts that talk about racism. 16 podcasts, another listicle. There's a lot of them.

00:18:57   Pick one. Listen to a couple episodes. Learn something. There was an interesting Twitter thread

00:19:01   by a data scientist who has a bunch of research-based solutions to stopping police violence,

00:19:06   basically saying, "Let's look at the data. Let's look at things that have been tried and measure

00:19:10   how effective they had been." It's a little bit turns out-y, but there's a lot of good data in

00:19:14   there. Again, he's a data scientist. Check out that Twitter thread. There's also a big site that

00:19:20   Obama put up, which is a similar type of, "Hey, you don't know what to do. Come to this site,

00:19:24   and we'll link to a bunch of things." Again, using Obama as a proxy for probably linking to some

00:19:30   charity that's a scam or a front or whatever, probably pretty well vetted, and lots of links

00:19:34   to learn more. Then the final thing I'll add is one of the other things that I've tried to make

00:19:40   myself do as a benefit to myself and my family, but also to myself, is find a way to talk to you,

00:19:46   if you have kids, find a way to talk to your kids in an age-appropriate way about this issue.

00:19:52   Because if you don't talk to them about it, no matter what age they are, unless they're an actual

00:19:56   infant, they know that something is going on, just in the same way as if you didn't talk to your kids

00:20:01   about coronavirus, they're going to notice, "Why aren't I going to school?" Kids know. Kids know

00:20:05   about this stuff. If you don't talk about it at all, I feel like you're missing an opportunity

00:20:10   for both you and your kid to come to a better understanding of this. I know it's hard to talk

00:20:16   to your kids about this. I know. I have kids. I try to do it. It's not easy. But forcing yourself

00:20:21   to figure out how to do that, how do you talk to a five-year-old about this? Forcing yourself to

00:20:25   figure out how to do that makes you think about it more, just like saying stuff on a podcast makes

00:20:29   you have to think about it or writing makes you have to think about it. Even more so, when you're

00:20:33   talking to your own kid, you don't want to screw it up. You're like, "How do I talk to my kid about

00:20:37   this?" So they're not scared. They don't have nightmares about it. But I do want them to know.

00:20:44   Find a way. Practice between you and your partner, if you have one, to try to figure out what you're

00:20:52   going to say. Practice in your head. But I found that an important and valuable exercise. Obviously,

00:20:58   it's a little bit easier when your kids are older, unless they're really ornery teens. But either

00:21:01   way, that's my suggestion. Yeah, and among other things I wanted to call out is in the

00:21:07   show notes as well, I'm going to try to add—and I will I will tell the other guys that they will

00:21:14   try to add—some links to some Black developers in our community that you can follow. And really,

00:21:21   just having these voices in your world and in your timeline can make your perspective shift. And

00:21:28   I really recommend adding as many as you can. All of them, if possible. And definitely patronizing

00:21:37   their apps and watching their conference talks and so on. So we will put some links as well in

00:21:43   the show notes. There's a lot here. If I remember, I'll also put some book recommendations that I

00:21:48   cannot vouch for myself, but I've been told are good. And I've been told by people who would know.

00:21:53   So I think that's much better than an endorsement from me. So really, if there's ever a time

00:22:01   to let us three nerds assign homework, I think now is the time to try to spend a few minutes and look

00:22:09   through these links and see what you can learn. Because all of us, myself extremely included,

00:22:14   have a lot to learn. And I think that although this is a terrible awful situation that we're

00:22:21   in the midst of as we record on the evening of June 3, I really pray and hope that it will be

00:22:28   ultimately for the best and that good will come of it. As far as going forward, this is important to

00:22:33   us. We will not be making the show about this, but it's important to us and it may come up again.

00:22:38   It likely will come up again. And we will not shy away from talking about it if necessary. But that

00:22:43   being said, as Marco and Jon had said earlier, we want to provide some amount of release and some

00:22:51   amount of entertainment for ourselves, for you. So once I give these two guys a chance for closing

00:22:57   thoughts, we're going to move on with a more traditional show. I'm ready to do a tech podcast

00:23:01   now, I think. Yeah. Alex Chan writes, "They were struck by something that Jon said on the last

00:23:09   episode. Jon said if you threw the new ATP website at Netscape Navigator 3.1, it would die horribly

00:23:14   and it would look like nothing. And Alex tried it. And Alex said, "It turns out what actually

00:23:20   happens if you try to view ATP.fm in a very old Netscape Navigator is that it looks like nothing

00:23:24   because the browser gives you an error." And the error that they got was, "Netscape and this server

00:23:28   cannot communicate securely because they have no common encryption algorithms." Which makes sense,

00:23:32   but it's kind of a bummer. That being said, Alex tried the next best thing, which is what I would

00:23:37   have tried, which is Lynx. If you're not familiar, Lynx is a text-only web browser that is designed

00:23:43   for like the command line. And Alex writes, "But the site does work in Lynx and is fairly usable,

00:23:48   including the flexbox on the store page, which it looks straight past. All of those paragraph

00:23:53   and unordered list tags have paid off." I just think this is delightful. I don't have any

00:23:57   screenshots, unfortunately, but I do think it's absolutely delightful. Yeah. The thing I forgot

00:24:02   about Netscape is that SSL/TLS has changed so much in the years between then and now that they

00:24:09   can't agree. They can't do an encryption handshake between themselves. And so if your site insists

00:24:14   on HTTPS, the browser can just not make a secure connection to modern servers because basically the

00:24:20   algorithms and protocols that were used back in the day are now all considered insecure and

00:24:24   aren't supported by good websites. So that's a bummer. But yeah. Yeah. It's one of the weird

00:24:30   things that like it kind of a lot of old devices now, like a lot of older OSs, older laptops,

00:24:36   older, you know, other devices are just rendered fairly useless these days because of this

00:24:41   particular issue. Like if you try to boot up an old OS, it can still run a lot of old software made

00:24:46   for it, but anything that involves the internet will probably fail because of this exact thing.

00:24:51   And there's usually no possible way to update super old hardware to any kind of software that

00:24:56   would support modern SSL standards. Jon, what is the component in an OpenDock thing?

00:25:02   I think the chat room might've gotten this in the last episode and I just didn't see it. But

00:25:06   anyway, I was trying to remember what the heck the name of an OpenDock thing is that, you know,

00:25:10   not the container, but the things that bring tools into the container that you can use to edit the

00:25:14   document. And apparently the word I was looking for was parts and OpenDock part, according to,

00:25:19   I think this is from Wikipedia and OpenDock part can be anything to a normal app that a normal

00:25:23   application would offer. For example, a spreadsheet part, a text part, a database part and so on.

00:25:27   So there you go. OpenDock parts. The world feels better for having known that little piece of

00:25:33   trivia. Oh, the world, the world should feel even more better about this next one. Last episode.

00:25:38   This is why I have to write things down. Last episode when we were talking about clipboard

00:25:41   managers, I made a mental note to myself. I was, we started to talk about it. Make sure you

00:25:46   mentioned that Windows has one. And I didn't write it down and we got off on, I was listening back to

00:25:50   the episode and we got off on some tangent and I just followed that tangent. You knew?

00:25:53   Yeah. Well, we collectively got off on a tangent and then I grabbed the tangent at the end and got

00:25:57   off and like, oh, well, I guess we're done with the clipboard thing. And I never mentioned that.

00:25:59   Yes. Windows, like so many things, has built this new clipboard manager. I don't think it's enabled

00:26:04   by default. I think it's been there for a while now, but if you have Windows and you want a

00:26:09   clipboard manager that is part of the OS and is made by Microsoft, it's there. Consult Google

00:26:15   to find out how to enable it. I think maybe it's just Windows key plus V or something. But anyway,

00:26:18   we'll put links in the show notes to give more information about that. It's a simple clipboard

00:26:22   manager, but it's there. I can't believe you knew about it and you could have saved us from a week

00:26:26   of getting the same follow up over and over again. And you didn't say anything. That's why I made a

00:26:30   note to myself. I'm like, oh, make sure you mention that. Cause you don't want to spend a week getting

00:26:33   here. And the reason I know about it, of course, is I'm spending time at Windows, which is basically

00:26:37   my destiny launcher. That's why I know it's there. Oh my goodness. That's delightful. All right. And

00:26:45   then I guess it probably falls to me to do this thing that's slightly uncomfortable this particular

00:26:51   week, but the ATP store, this is the last week for it. The pre-orders will end on the 7th,

00:26:58   which is Sunday, I believe in the evening. So if you would like any of our sweet, sweet merch,

00:27:04   please feel free to go and throw a few dollars that way. This is after you've given to your

00:27:10   favorite Black Lives Matter charity. This is after you've bought a bunch of books about racism that

00:27:14   you're going to read and learn all about after you've done all of that. Exactly. If you still

00:27:18   also want like an ATP mug or something, we're selling them to the 7th. Don't wait too long,

00:27:22   because it'll be gone. Yep. So don't forget every single time somebody sends a tweet. Oh,

00:27:27   is it too late? It's too late. Isn't it? I forgot. Oh, I forgot. It's too late. The good news is

00:27:32   the Black Lives Matter charity and those books, they're on sale forever. Yep. Never too late for

00:27:37   them. One of my favorite things to do is to tell you guys about why I'm a moron. And this is Casey

00:27:45   Sanetti at Corner episode number 379. You don't need to tell us Casey. Oh, oh no. Sick burn. You

00:27:53   can take that a lot of different ways. The fact that you chose to take it as an insult, it's just,

00:27:56   I find insulting personally. Oh God, this is going nowhere good. Okay. So we got a new TV in,

00:28:03   on Cyber Monday this past year. So we got an LG OLED 55C9 AUA, which is basically the 55 inch 4k

00:28:12   HDR OLED. And I really like that TV. I really do. It's, it's been really good to us. It works really

00:28:19   well. And after having it, after having had it for, I don't know, maybe a month, I finally got

00:28:25   around to putting it on our Apple home kit home. And sometimes shortly thereafter, although I don't

00:28:33   know exactly when it was, we noticed this thing would just periodically turn itself off, which was

00:28:39   really frustrating. Can I offer the, can I shortcut your story or do you not want me to spoil it?

00:28:45   You always do this to me, but fine, John shortcut my story. I don't want to spoil it entirely.

00:28:49   I'll give you a separate second one. Right. So I've actually had people ask me about this

00:28:54   very thing. They say, Hey, this is slightly different. Hey, when you, when you turn off

00:28:58   your TV, does it turn back on in a couple of seconds? It's kind of the opposite of your

00:29:02   problem. Right. Weird. And I, I do have that happen and your story, I'm not going to spoil it,

00:29:08   but I had the same thing happen with my receiver where I'd just be watching TV with my receiver

00:29:14   and then it would just turn off like in the middle of watching a movie. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And

00:29:19   you know, of course the receiver turns off and eventually like just everything reroutes and the

00:29:22   sound starts coming out of the TV or whatever. And at first I was like, I got to return. This

00:29:25   is something wrong with it. Like it overheats or something or anyway, I don't want to spoil it.

00:29:28   Continue with your story. I'll be revealed. Uh oh. Thank you. I appreciate your incredible

00:29:33   self-control. So eventually both of us, but particularly Erin has had enough of this because

00:29:40   she's a normal human and doesn't want to put up with my bull crap. And so at some point she

00:29:44   basically said to me, look, we either need to get this thing serviced or returned or what have you,

00:29:49   or you need to find a way to fix this. So of course my natural inclination is I was always

00:29:54   an HDMI CEC unicorn. I guess my time has ended and I no longer have my single horn on my head.

00:30:02   I am no longer a CEC unicorn. I am a CEC every man. And that's the problem. HDMI CEC if you

00:30:08   recall is this thing. I forget exactly what it stands for. It doesn't matter, but it lets

00:30:12   various different devices like power on and off other devices. Right. And for the longest time,

00:30:17   even on my last TV, my 1080 TV, it always worked. I never had a problem. So I decide, you know what,

00:30:24   I'm going to go nuclear and I'm going to turn off anything that even smells like it's something that

00:30:31   would automatically turn the machine, turn the TV off. I'm going to turn, I'm going to turn off

00:30:35   the auto like sleep thing, which I know is probably driving, driving John up a wall, just thinking

00:30:40   about it, but I'm gonna turn that off. HDMI CEC is off. Everything's off. Gets taken out of the

00:30:45   Apple home kit home. I forget what else I flipped off, but I flipped everything off and sure enough,

00:30:52   it doesn't turn itself off anymore. Now this is good because that means it's a, and I'm doing

00:30:58   major air quotes here, software problem in the sense that, you know, some setting somewhere has

00:31:03   screwed this up. I don't know what it is, but something somewhere screwed it up. So over time,

00:31:09   I've been a little, I've been trying to perform a little more science and I've been slowly re-adding

00:31:13   different things like the auto power off if you leave it on for a long time and like, you know,

00:31:17   idle. I eventually added HDMI CEC and waited like a month and that wasn't an issue. And

00:31:24   it was the weirdest thing. I realized that only when the garage door raspberry pie was on the

00:31:31   network. No, I'm just kidding. That would have been kind of hilarious, but no, that's not it at all.

00:31:39   So anyway, so about a week ago, I finally re-added it after having been off our Apple home for a long

00:31:45   time. I finally re-added it to our home kit home and sure enough, just a day or two back,

00:31:52   it turned itself off. Remind me again, I know I asked this when you first brought this up

00:31:57   many shows ago, remind me again, why you want it on here, your home kit home thing. I would

00:32:03   like to integrate it with something that mostly works most of the time and make it less reliable.

00:32:07   But he had a reason. Was it just so you could like turn it off by voice? What was the reason?

00:32:11   Yeah, basically so I could turn off my voice. Like there are occasions that I do not have a remote

00:32:15   handy that can turn the TV off. To be clear, it's very unlikely and I can get off my lazy

00:32:20   hindquarters and just go walk across the room and get the remote. You should get the clapper.

00:32:25   I should get the clapper. In any case, I mean, part of the reason I got this TV is because I

00:32:33   wanted something that had home kit just because I thought it would be like future proofing in the

00:32:36   same way I've made the speech many times. I would only buy cars that had CarPlay now, I have Marco,

00:32:41   because I want a future proof. I only want to buy a TV or perhaps future, you know, home electronics

00:32:47   where relevant that have home kit support. And you're right, like your implied statement here is

00:32:52   that I don't need home kit. Yeah, correct. No argument, but I wanted it. And so it turned itself

00:32:58   off the other day as we were watching it and I was upset and Aaron of course pounces all over me.

00:33:04   Look, see, see, I told you. And, and, but I said, well, wait, hold on. This is the first time it's

00:33:10   happened. And I don't know what it was about this particular moment, but it occurred to me,

00:33:15   wait a second. It is exactly 6.40 PM, which to any other family on the planet means nothing,

00:33:23   but to the list family means something because at exactly 6.40 PM home kit runs our nighttime

00:33:31   automation. I don't recall ever having been ever having added our TV to that automation,

00:33:40   but sure enough, when I went into whichever one of the 17 different places you can find a home kit

00:33:45   automation and found the good night or go to bed or whatever it was called automation, sure enough,

00:33:50   guess what was there? Turn the TV off. And so finally, I think I've solved my problem. And the

00:33:57   TV, since I've done that just a few days ago has not just randomly turned itself off for no reason.

00:34:02   And I bring all this up because I was really scared to ask like Federico, who I think has the same

00:34:06   TV. Marco, I think you have the same TV. I didn't want to ask anyone like, do you have this problem?

00:34:12   Cause I really had this, this, this creeping suspicion that it was something dumb I had done

00:34:17   now in my defense. Like I said, I don't think I knowingly or, or autumn or willingly added it to

00:34:22   the good night automation. But I do think I am using the like the canned good night automation.

00:34:28   And it is very possible. I don't know this for sure, but it is possible that adding a TV to your

00:34:34   home automatically sucks it into the good night automation and tells it to turn itself off. If

00:34:39   that's not true, it's okay. But I wanted to bring this up as kind of a PSA. If you are also having

00:34:44   random issues like this with one of your devices, Hey, maybe check out your home kit automations.

00:34:50   It might be there in summary. I'm an idiot. Yeah. Well, so the heading of this item says

00:34:54   Casey is a moron. So I thought for sure it was just the sleep timer, which is a feature that

00:34:58   like every TV has had forever. Basically you can tell it to turn itself off after a certain period

00:35:03   of time or at a certain time, like, like television have had this for decades, right? Why my receiver,

00:35:10   it has something similar where it's like, it's basically like a timer. Like once you turn the

00:35:14   receiver on after X number of minutes, it will turn itself off as a way to prevent it from just

00:35:19   being on all night. If you just go to sleep and forget about it, it'll turn itself off.

00:35:23   But I never set this timer and out of the box, it was set for like three hours. And if you're

00:35:28   watching some TV and then you put on a movie, you know, depending on how much TV had been watched

00:35:32   before that, you could be in the middle or towards the end of the movie and it will just shut off.

00:35:36   That's a terrible default. Yeah. I don't understand why that was. I mean,

00:35:41   I think it was pretty long. Maybe it was like three hours or whatever, but you know,

00:35:43   back before the kids were totally addicted to their iPads, they actually used to sit in front

00:35:46   of the television and watch stuff. And then you'd come over and you'd watch stuff after they go to

00:35:49   bed and it's totally plausible that television, you know, the receiver at least could be on during

00:35:52   that whole time. Anyway, yeah, just fixing that timer was like one of the things I did in the

00:35:57   first month I had it, which was refreshing. The other thing I mentioned before of like, hey,

00:36:03   when you turn your television off for the remote, sometimes does it turn right back on?

00:36:06   I have a theory on that. I don't know what's causing it, but I am, I'm using my TiVo remote

00:36:13   to turn my television on and off. You can train the TiVo remote either by entering a code or like,

00:36:18   it has a learning feature. Anyway, you can use the TiVo remote to control features of your television

00:36:23   pretty much no matter what brand it is. And the TiVo remote has a power button on it.

00:36:26   And what I always assume is happening is I press the power button and the TiVo remote sprays out

00:36:33   a bunch of IR stuff. It's like, all right, any Panasonic TV anywhere in my vicinity, turn off now.

00:36:39   And the first little bit of that spray turns my TV off. And then like, I put the remote down on the

00:36:46   end table and the last little bit of the spray turns it on. That's my theory. I can't prove it.

00:36:51   And I don't know, like if I, if I like put my hand over the IR part right after the TV turns off,

00:36:55   does it not happen? And it doesn't happen every time. It happens like once every three months

00:36:59   and you start thinking you're crazy. So I don't have a solution to that one, but it's not a sleep

00:37:02   timer. And then the great thing is if you pick up the remote and press the button again, it just

00:37:07   turns off and stays off. Like, it's like, I just did that. Am I holding the button down too long?

00:37:12   It's very mysterious. And no, it is not CEC because there's no CEC in my household.

00:37:16   Have we forgotten to ask Casey why he goes to bed at 6.40 PM?

00:37:20   That's, he's got young kids. Don't you remember? He's not going to bed. He's hoping,

00:37:24   he's hoping against hope because he is in denial, like all children, like all parents of young

00:37:27   children and denial that they're going to keep going to bed around that time. And it's like,

00:37:30   guess what, Casey? That time of your life is rapidly ending. So, so much for,

00:37:34   we'll have the evening to ourselves because we'll put the kids down and they'll be down by 7.15 and

00:37:38   the whole evening will stretch out before us. Those days are ending. Don't tell me these things

00:37:44   because I know that you're right. I know you're right. But I am. Has Declan stopped napping yet?

00:37:48   Yes, but he has an hour of rest time every day. Yeah, I remember the rest time years. Yeah,

00:37:55   that's more, that's like bargaining. How about you just have quiet time? It's like,

00:37:59   we just need a break. Yep, that's exactly right. And so far he seems mostly okay with it. He just

00:38:04   basically has the run of the house to do whatever he wants. What's deeply alarming is that I think

00:38:09   Michaela is starting to drop her nap and that, oh, I just don't even want to think about it.

00:38:15   It's only a matter of time before they're trying to figure out how to do donuts with your front

00:38:17   wheel drive hatchback. Excuse me, sir. Excuse me, sir. How dare you blaspheme my car like that?

00:38:26   It is a Haldex all-wheel drive system that is mostly front wheel drive, front bias. It is

00:38:31   extremely front biased, but it can, thank you very much, push torque to the rear wheels. You jerk.

00:38:37   So you've got the best of both worlds. You got torque steer and the inability to do easy donuts.

00:38:42   Oh, stop it. You, it does not torque steer. The inability to do easy donuts, that is correct.

00:38:47   If you just go in reverse, tell Declan. Tell Declan. I was about to say, at least I'm not

00:38:50   doing reverse donuts like you are. Does your, your car doesn't even have a locking front diff,

00:38:55   does it? I don't think it does. No. Of course not. You can do that single, that single burnout. You

00:39:01   can't leave 11s, you leave 1s. Oh God. I put the power to the road, Kasey. It's all about efficiency.

00:39:07   Oh God. I can't even, I cannot even. I don't want to waste that power destroying my tires.

00:39:12   We are sponsored tonight by Tom Bihn. Let me tell you, I like my Apple stuff a lot, but I love my

00:39:22   Tom Bihn stuff. I have their Cadet kind of brief Kasey laptop bag. I have their Co-Pilot carry-on

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00:39:39   reusable cloth face masks. Each of these masks is $13. And for everyone that's purchased, they

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00:39:54   over the past two months, they've made 160,000 of these things for hospitals, government agencies,

00:40:00   businesses, etc. And they've donated 55,000 so far to tribal nations, healthcare workers, homeless

00:40:05   shelters, and more. What's even better is they have a public Google Sheet where you can see

00:40:11   exactly how many have been donated, how many are queued up to be donated, where they've been donated

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00:40:21   They also are offering, starting this coming Monday at 9 a.m pacific, they're going to be

00:40:26   offering their CINIC 22 and CINIC 30 backpacks for pre-order because they're finally getting

00:40:31   to the point that they can start making bags again instead of just masks. I do not have a Tom Bihn

00:40:37   backpack, and I tell you what, I want one because these things look awesome. And I know a lot of

00:40:42   people who have CINICs and they all say that these things are phenomenal. Go to TomBihn.com,

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00:40:55   Check out their reusable face masks. Everything there is excellent. I love Tom Bihn. They can

00:41:01   pay me to talk about Tom Bihn. They can't pay me to say I love Tom Bihn, and I do. So thank you

00:41:07   so much to TomBihn, T-O-M-B-I-H-N.com, for sponsoring the show. Android versus iOS text-to-speech

00:41:17   speed. So this came onto my radar probably because of one of you and in turn because of Dave Mark,

00:41:22   who from The Loop, who had found a video from James Cham who said, "I don't think that people

00:41:29   appreciate how different the voice-to-text experience on a Pixel is from an iPhone."

00:41:33   So here's a little head-to-head example. The Pixel is so responsive it feels like it's reading my

00:41:36   mind. And so sure enough, James has a Pixel and an iPhone next to each other, and they engage the

00:41:43   text-to-speech thing, and it is quite obviously like night and day different. It's preposterous.

00:41:49   And this is really surprising from Apple because Apple is the self-proclaimed king and queens of

00:41:56   accessibility, and this is very much an accessibility feature in my mind. And it's not

00:42:00   only an accessibility feature, but it is very much an accessibility feature. And so I was really

00:42:05   surprised by this, and it wasn't until I looked at the show notes earlier today that I realized

00:42:09   somebody, probably John, has put in a follow-up tweet from Dave where Dave said, "So I turned on

00:42:15   airplane mode, and the iPhone text-to-speech is every bit as fast as the Android text-to-speech.

00:42:21   If I turn airplane mode off, the lag returns. Try it yourself. Not at all sure why this lag is

00:42:27   necessary." So I have theories, but since I didn't put this in the show notes, I will leave it up to

00:42:31   you, John, question mark, to tell me what your thoughts are. Yeah, my thoughts when I first saw

00:42:35   this. Well, the performance comparison is kind of beautiful because you can just put both phones in

00:42:40   front of you, and they're both listening to you at the same time. So it's a very fair test. Like,

00:42:44   you're not speaking to one, you're speaking to both of them at the same time, and you can really

00:42:48   see the difference. So check out that video. And it brought to mind a question. We didn't actually

00:42:52   do it on Ask ATP, but I remember it flying by in the many hundreds of questions that we get. It was

00:42:56   like, "You keep talking about on the show," this is what the listener was saying, "about how much

00:43:01   faster Apple's system-on-a-chips are in their phone than the competition. But how does that speed

00:43:05   manifest itself? Like, yeah, it's faster than all these benchmarks that everyone says is faster,

00:43:09   but like, what does that do for me? What is the speed done for me lately?" I can answer that in a

00:43:15   whole bunch of different ways. Like, for example, JavaScript benchmarks are very relevant to people

00:43:18   who try to load complex web pages on your phone, and obviously performance in games and other

00:43:23   things where you really need every ounce of CPU. And arguably also in battery life, because you can

00:43:29   get more done in a shorter amount of time and go back to sleep faster or whatever. But this is an

00:43:34   example where no matter how much faster your system-on-a-chip is, algorithms win in the end.

00:43:41   So for something complicated, like speech-to-text is not a simple thing, not even as straightforward

00:43:46   as like rendering in a game engine or something. It is very complicated. It's got machine learning,

00:43:49   and it also may have a server-side component to it. And in this performance comparison,

00:43:56   the massive speed difference in the Apple system-on-a-chip is not helping Apple do well

00:44:02   on this test, because it's more than just your CPU speed. It's your algorithms, and it's the speed,

00:44:08   if you're doing server-side stuff, it's the responsiveness of your service that is processing

00:44:12   the text and sending it back. And when you put the iPhone into airplane mode, it's the performance of

00:44:19   the on-chip implementation versus the one that's over the network. Now, the interesting thing about

00:44:23   the follow-up to this is like, "Oh, I put it in airplane mode, and they brought it just as fast?

00:44:26   Try it yourself?" I did. I tried it myself. I didn't have an Android phone here to test with,

00:44:31   although I actually do have one in the house. I should have tried that, but it's like a $50

00:44:34   Android phone, so I don't think it would be a fair comparison. But anyway, I tried speech-to-text

00:44:39   with everything connected and then also in airplane mode with everything disconnected.

00:44:44   And they were exactly the same speed to me, and that speed was slowish. It wasn't as fast

00:44:49   as the Android phone in this video. Maybe it wasn't as slow as the really slow phone, but it was

00:44:54   I didn't see any speed difference whatsoever. So I don't know what that means. Is mine configured

00:44:58   in a way where it's not sending to the server? I don't know. A lot of the people responded to this

00:45:02   thread saying that when they were offline and did it, the local on-device one seemed less accurate,

00:45:07   but it's very difficult to A/B test that because you might've spoken differently or whatever. So

00:45:11   all this is to say that areas like this are sort of... I mean, we beg on Siri all the time,

00:45:20   and this is arguably not Siri. It's like, "Well, that's not Siri. That's not answering a question

00:45:24   for me. That's speech-to-text. It's totally different." But we all kind of put it under

00:45:27   the same umbrella. I feel like stuff like this makes the on-paper, very, very fast iPhone

00:45:34   feel slow. I can't tell from this testing if the problem is that Apple's algorithms and

00:45:42   machine learning stuff and their model or whatever, they're doing this is worse than Google's,

00:45:48   or if it's because Apple's server-side implementation is slower, less responsive,

00:45:53   more laggy, or does things in bigger chunks, or if it's a combination of all of that. But

00:45:58   anybody who looks at this video can see there's a gap, and that gap really ought to be closed

00:46:05   because FaceTime is great, and FaceTime is fast, and all these things, and all the camera stuff.

00:46:10   Like there's, again, measurable advantages to having a high-performance system on a chip.

00:46:15   I think speech-to-text would be one of those things. In addition to lagging behind on how

00:46:20   smart Siri is about answering questions, like getting directions to London or whatever that

00:46:23   was, the last one that went around that was an embarrassment for Apple where it kept trying to

00:46:26   send you to London, Ontario or something. Or, no, what time is it in London? Wasn't that the group

00:46:30   we were supposed to think about? Yeah, something like that. And it was telling you the time in

00:46:33   London somewhere in Canada, which is probably not what you mean. Stuff like that and straightforward

00:46:38   stuff like this. Speech-to-text. I use speech-to-text a surprising amount. My mother uses it like crazy

00:46:45   because she can't stand typing on that tiny little keyboard, and I don't blame her, and her vision is

00:46:49   really bad. And, boy, if you've done that in a responsive system versus one that lags, it really

00:46:55   makes a big difference. So I hope in iOS 13+N Apple gets their act together on this. I hope they do,

00:47:04   but honestly, I'm not thinking that's actually going to happen because ultimately, this is just

00:47:11   a problem with almost everything about Siri, and it always has been. Siri has always been

00:47:17   a little dumb, a little unreliable, and a little slow compared to its competitors. You know,

00:47:24   we've seen Apple. Apple's done a little bit of hiring here or there. We've heard, like,

00:47:28   "Oh, they're revamping the Siri team or infrastructure or whatever." I really,

00:47:33   really hope that Apple realizes how important the quality of Siri is and, despite what they

00:47:39   say in public, how it's not there yet. Because performance is a feature, as is consistency,

00:47:46   and as is actual intelligence of things like the London query. If you use Google Assistant or I

00:47:53   don't have any experience with Cortana or if you use Alexa, it is significantly more consistent,

00:47:59   and it is usually faster to respond. Siri needs to get there, and I really, really hope Apple

00:48:07   has just been working on this for a long time behind the scenes and isn't ready to release it

00:48:11   yet because so far, it has seemed to date from just what gets out there and how things behave

00:48:16   in the real world. It has seemed to date that Apple is incapable or unwilling to make Siri

00:48:23   actually fast and consistent, and clearly, it's possible because all their competitors have done

00:48:27   it. So really, what I want from Siri more than anything, and this is true as somebody who,

00:48:31   like, I regularly use a HomePod and an Amazon Echo, and the Amazon Echo responds to things

00:48:38   much faster. The HomePod hears me better, the HomePod music sounds better, the HomePod also

00:48:43   randomly butts into conversations a lot more that it thinks I hailed it and it didn't, and it's just

00:48:49   slow when I ask it something. Even simple things like "Hey, dingus, play" or "Hey, dingus, pause."

00:48:53   It takes so long to respond that you question whether it is going to respond at all, like,

00:48:59   and it hears me immediately and it like, you know, ducks the volume down on the music. If I'm saying,

00:49:05   you know, "Hey, dingus, pause," it'll hear that immediately and duck the volume, and then "Wait,

00:49:10   wait, wait," and then it gets paused. And that's consistently almost every time. Like,

00:49:17   simple stuff like that is just not fast, and it should be, and their competitors can do it quickly.

00:49:22   So Apple needs to really prioritize Siri quality and performance and consistency

00:49:29   way more than they ever have before. And so far, we don't see any evidence that's actually happening.

00:49:35   So again, I hope we're just not seeing it and it's just not out yet, because what's out there

00:49:39   now from them is not good enough. Yeah, I'm, I don't know, it's so, so easy to bag on Siri that

00:49:45   I just, it's boring. It's boring to bag on Siri yet again. So instead, can I bag on Catalina?

00:49:50   What now? Because I, I have another thing that I haven't yet publicly shared and complained

00:49:58   and whined about that I'd like to quickly throw out. It'll only take a moment. Do you guys use

00:50:04   SMB shares at all? This is like Windows-style shares, perhaps with your Synologies or perhaps

00:50:10   with other laptops or computers in your world. Do you ever really use SMB? That's the default

00:50:16   for all file sharing. If you don't specify a protocol and don't say how you want to connect

00:50:20   to like a file share, it's SMB by default since a couple of versions ago in macOS. Oh, okay. Well,

00:50:26   yeah, I use it. I use it for my Synology like archive share. Yeah, so I use it for my Synology

00:50:31   and there anything is possible. The following could be true because of something weird on

00:50:36   the Synology, although I find it hard to believe because I don't recall this ever being a problem

00:50:40   with Mojave. That, that could be the summary of the last year of the show. I don't remember this

00:50:44   being a problem in Mojave. Anyways, I have noticed that on any, any situation where in my computer,

00:50:54   and this is true of my adorable or my iMac Pro, any situation where my computer loses the connection

00:51:00   to the Synology, now maybe it's something completely reasonable, like I've closed the lid

00:51:03   or it's suspended itself or something like that, you know, some way, somehow it's lost a connection.

00:51:08   Your home kid has decided to turn it off. Or, okay, it has decided to turn it off.

00:51:12   Uh, too soon. Uh, anyway, so when I come back, it will more often than not look like the Synology

00:51:19   is still mounted. But when I go to actually drill into it and finder, I see the following error. I

00:51:26   see the operation can't be completed because the original item for quote, in my case archive,

00:51:31   because that's what like the root folder is, but whatever your root folder is, can't be found.

00:51:35   And if I go back in and try it again, doesn't work. If I kill all finder and try it again

00:51:42   immediately, everything works, no problem. Oh, it's great. Everything's great. What do you mean?

00:51:45   There's no problem. Nothing to see here. This is driving me fricking insane. Not to mention that my

00:51:50   machine gun track pad that I've been bemoaning for the last couple of months now, that seemed to be

00:51:57   deeply exacerbated by a tremendous amount of network activity, specifically over a network

00:52:02   share. So like going and downloading something from the internet, not that big a deal. Throwing

00:52:07   a bunch of stuff on and off the Synology would just bring my machine to a screeching halt. And

00:52:12   especially my track pad has something, this is a rhetorical question or mostly rhetorical question.

00:52:17   Has something happened with SMB in Catalina or something around SMB in Catalina? Cause this is

00:52:24   driving me fricking crazy. And I just want it fixed. Please, please Apple, please you fix this

00:52:29   for your pal Casey. That'd be great. There's been big complaints about Apple's SMB implementation

00:52:33   for years, and they haven't proved it a lot by grabbing more better open source SMB implementations

00:52:38   for the client. On the Synology, if you're not aware of this, there are a bunch of settings

00:52:43   on, I don't know if it's on a per share basis or on the whole machine basis, but there are settings

00:52:47   to tell the Synology what versions of SMB to support, what features to support. I don't know

00:52:54   what the right settings are there, but over the years I have slowly turned them all on like

00:52:59   maximum support all the things, support all the extensions, support the highest versions. Cause

00:53:04   you can just say, turn them all on. I haven't noticed any change in performance. I wasn't

00:53:08   having any problems before. I'm not having any problems now, but just FYI, maybe if that will

00:53:12   help solve your problems, you could try that. Machine got tracked, but I thought I was,

00:53:17   I would totally subscribe to the theory that people would put out. There's like a kernel

00:53:20   contention thing with like the USB interface and some kernel lock. Like that totally made sense to

00:53:24   me. But now that you don't have that now that like your backup is somewhere else and you know, like

00:53:28   that that has been eliminated, you're in a similar situation to what I am, which is you have a

00:53:33   computer it's connected over ethernet to your Synology and you copy a big files back and forth.

00:53:39   And I do that and I don't have any of the problems you're saying. I don't have the unmounting problem

00:53:43   or whatever that's going on there. I don't have the stuttering problem. Everything copies at the

00:53:48   speed I expect to copy. So I don't want to tell you. To be fair, once I moved all backing up,

00:53:56   like all network backups off of the iMac. So now it's being taken care of by the Mac mini.

00:54:01   I haven't had a machine contract in a while. It has gotten way, way, way better. And it is

00:54:08   certainly possible. I'm not saying it's definitely not a Synology problem in the same way that I was

00:54:12   saying that my machine contract that is definitely a software problem. I could believe that it's a

00:54:17   Synology issue. And if you are the kind of person that knows this stuff, that actually like does

00:54:25   this sort of thing for a living and you would like to throw some ideas at me with regard to

00:54:29   Synology settings or something like that, I'm all ears. If you're just someone who says, "Oh,

00:54:34   it works for me. Here's what I've got." It's okay. I appreciate it, but don't worry about it.

00:54:37   But I would love to see this fixed. I don't have a feedback entry for radar, whatever it's called

00:54:43   now, feedback assistant thing. I don't have one for this because I don't even know what to say.

00:54:47   Like, and it's not, what I've got is not actionable. Like I don't have, I don't have any

00:54:51   really good way to report this, but if someone from Apple would like to reach out to me, you know

00:54:56   where to find me. I'm happy to do whatever you would like me to do. I'll SysDiagnose until your

00:55:00   heart's content, if that's what it takes. But yeah, people are saying this is more of a finder

00:55:05   problem. People are saying turn off AFP. I'll try that. I don't know if that's going to make a

00:55:10   difference, but I'll try it. But yeah, if you know what this is about, please let me know because it's

00:55:15   driving me crazy. We are sponsored this week by Squarespace. Start building your website today

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00:57:13   website from Squarespace. A couple of weeks ago, we had a post from Alan Odgard called Mac OS 1015,

00:57:25   Slow by Design. John, do you want to tell us about this? First of all, that's the guy who made

00:57:30   TextMate, right? Yes. Yeah, thought I recognized the name. Anyway, it's a big post about slowness

00:57:37   related to the design of Mac OS. He listed it as a Mac OS 1015 Catalina issue. I'm not sure how much

00:57:43   is new in Catalina versus what has been existing, but what it boils down to are things that are slow

00:57:49   because there's some kind of security check happening before the computer does the thing.

00:57:56   And you know, in the thread around the internet that have been discussing this, people are like,

00:58:02   "Oh, if you turn off system integrity protection, this goes away." And then people are like, "Oh,

00:58:05   I don't want to turn off system integrity protection. It exists for a reason. Why should

00:58:08   I have to disable all the security, good performance, and back and forth?" There's a bunch

00:58:12   of stuff listed having to do with spawning a process and getting access to privileged file

00:58:16   system locations and keychain access and the context API and app launch and all these other

00:58:22   things. And by the way, there's another follow-up post by Jeff Johnson of LabCat Software talking

00:58:30   about the same thing and how random shell scripts that you make are also now checked to see that

00:58:34   they're malware essentially by contacting Apple's service and saying, "Hey, someone's about to run

00:58:40   this shell script that they just wrote. Does this have the same signature as malware if it doesn't

00:58:45   let it launch, but if it does launch it?" And it only does it on the first try and it caches the

00:58:49   answer. And it's tricky to test because people are like, "Well, I just tried it. I wrote a test.sh

00:58:54   script and it was fast every single time. I don't know what's wrong with your system." And it's like,

00:58:57   "Well, you have to give the thing a different name every time and different contents. Otherwise,

00:59:00   it short circuits and it thinks it's the same as the previous script." And it's tricky to test

00:59:05   when we don't really know the implementation, but I thought it was an interesting story because,

00:59:09   again, it's another security versus X trade-off, security versus convenience, security versus

00:59:14   effectiveness, security versus performance. And this reminded me of a strain of performance issue.

00:59:25   I always associate it with Unix because that's where I always see it and it's the OS that I know

00:59:29   the most about under the covers, but obviously it could be in any OS where if you take an operating

00:59:34   system that has some operation that is and has always been synchronous, synchronous means

00:59:41   you ask it to do a thing and then you sit there with your arms crossed waiting and saying,

00:59:45   "Okay, are you done?" And then eventually it finishes and it comes back. And while you're

00:59:49   waiting for it to do that thing, all you can do is just sit there and wait. That's synchronous.

00:59:53   Asynchronous is you tell it to do a thing and then you go on with your day. And then eventually,

00:59:57   at some point later in the day, the thing goes back, "Oh, by the way, the thing you told me to

01:00:00   do, I'm done with it now." That's asynchronous. There are lots of synchronous operations in

01:00:04   operating systems. In general, the operations that are synchronous tend to be ones that

01:00:08   the original designers expected to be very fast or there was no useful thing that you could be

01:00:16   doing in this process while you're waiting for it anyway, so what's the point? An example of that,

01:00:24   a lot of the file system APIs, like the Unix file system APIs tend to be synchronous. Read from this

01:00:27   file, write to that file, open that file, close that file. Each one of those individual read,

01:00:31   write, open, close calls is synchronous in the Unix file IO API because what are you going to do?

01:00:37   If you're about to open a file, you can't go to the next line where you're going to try to read

01:00:41   from the file until you're done opening it. So you're just going to wait until the operating

01:00:43   system finishes opening it and then you get to your read and same thing. I'm going to read from

01:00:46   the file. Well, you can't do anything with the contents until you get them, so that read call

01:00:50   is synchronous. Dumpty dumpty dum read and then you get your thing back and yes, Unix does have

01:00:54   async IO operations and everything like that, but anyway, there are a lot of synchronous APIs.

01:00:57   If you take a synchronous API, no matter what it may be, reading from a file, reading from the

01:01:02   network, anything that has a synchronous API and you decide because of let's say security or

01:01:08   whatever that you want to do something else there like ah ah ah, before you exec CVP whatever that

01:01:14   file, I'm going to add a check that says, oh, before we let exec run, make sure it's not malware,

01:01:21   right? And do it in a smart way like have a cache on locally on the system that we keep track of.

01:01:26   Well, I already checked that already and it's totally not malware. It's fine and make that

01:01:29   check be really fast. But the very first time you run a thing that we've never seen before,

01:01:33   we have to contact Apple server and get the updated list of malware signatures and blah,

01:01:36   blah, blah, blah, blah. And then after we decide that it's okay, we execute that synchronous thing.

01:01:43   And that is a formula for things that are terribly slow because everything that's built on top of

01:01:47   that, that API, the whole big stack of software all the way up to like the finder or whatever

01:01:51   else you're doing, expects that whole chain, that whole synchronous chain to execute quickly. It's a

01:01:57   synchronous API. Like it's like, oh yeah, it's synchronous, but it's always really fast. It's

01:02:01   just, I'm trying to do a very simple operation and I can't do anything until it's done anyway.

01:02:04   And if that took like, you know, 25 nanoseconds before and suddenly takes a second and a half,

01:02:12   no application design can withstand that kind of inflation in the time taken for an operation.

01:02:17   Like, oh, this entire thing was built around the expectation that this thing will take nanoseconds

01:02:23   and now it's taking a second? And we do a thousand of those operations when you like open a folder or

01:02:28   you know, do, you know, whatever it is you may be doing that will destroy your performance. Another

01:02:33   great example of this, I always attribute to this, I'm not sure if it's entirely the case, but

01:02:36   back in the day, the finder had a web dev interface. This is like classic Mac OS and I think Mac OS 10

01:02:41   did as well. And web dev basically made synchronous file IO live on top of HTTP. Like the, you know,

01:02:49   your program thought it was doing synchronous file IO, but under the covers, all your IO operations

01:02:54   were HTTP calls. And this was like the nineties when I was dealing with this. And so those were

01:02:58   slow HTTP calls to slow servers across a slow internet connection. And it would destroy the

01:03:02   finder. Like, you know, I don't think we even had beach balls back in, you know, the equivalent,

01:03:07   the little watch cursor, the equivalent of it would just freeze. Like, cause it would,

01:03:10   it would be doing something that should take like fractions of a second. And it would take two

01:03:14   seconds because it's talking to like some web server running on a 80 megahertz, you know, sun,

01:03:20   one you box in some university somewhere and it's taking forever. And it's just a shame to see that

01:03:27   same, what I imagined to be that same pattern replaying itself here. Now I, I endorse all

01:03:33   these security features. I understand why they're there. There's not really a better way to do them

01:03:38   because in the end for, especially for security, you can't like, Oh, we'll just add them on the

01:03:43   async IO operations. A because pretty much every part of the system uses synchronous ones most of

01:03:47   the time. And B if you only do it on one kind of file access, that's not much security because

01:03:52   anything they wanted to get around it would just use the other API APIs. Right. And you can't do

01:03:57   it asynchronously really, because the whole point is you want to prevent them from running the

01:04:01   malware. You can't let them launch the malware. And then a second and a half later say, wait,

01:04:04   I just found out that malware. It's like too late. You're rude. Right. Um, so I feel for Apple and I

01:04:10   think they're mostly doing the right thing. I understand how it can make it seem like Mac,

01:04:15   quote unquote, max are slow because if you run it, if I run it on another Unix, like I run on Linux,

01:04:19   everything is fast. There's no problem. And you know, Linux has good security too. And yada, yada.

01:04:23   But I feel like Apple is hardening the Mac in the same way they have hardened and hardened the iPhone

01:04:29   to survive in a very hostile environment, more hostile than let's say, than like a Linux server

01:04:34   and a data center, which wants to have good security and wants to lock things down, but

01:04:37   also doesn't have to run like every app that a random person can throw at it and isn't subject

01:04:42   to the whims of a just regular consumer or computer user who just wants to do whatever the

01:04:47   hell they want. And, you know, it doesn't really have a, it's not a fixed workload. It's, it needs

01:04:52   to be a general purpose machine willing to withstand, withstand use by humans. And humans

01:04:58   are inscrutable. So I'm not sure what the solution to here is. Again, the reason it's related to the

01:05:03   other one is like, well, if Apple's service that tells me whether it's malware was way faster,

01:05:08   or if it did a better job of cashing the answers locally, or, you know, like there are ways to help,

01:05:12   you know, mitigate this to be even smarter, but mostly just to be faster. Because I think the

01:05:18   people who have like other people testing and say, well, you know, it's slow the first time, but

01:05:22   it's not that slow. It's like, well, maybe this person has a bad route to whatever host that they

01:05:27   need to contact at Apple, right? Maybe their internet connection is flaky. Maybe there's,

01:05:32   maybe the, their local server for this is slower than the one that you're in. Because you're in

01:05:36   California, right next to Apple's headquarters and you go right to their, I don't even know if

01:05:39   they had data center in California, but I assume they do. Anyway, there are lots of factors that

01:05:42   can add into this. It's kind of frustrating. I can't say I've experienced it myself. I write

01:05:48   plenty of shell scripts and Perl scripts. And if Catalina is checking them against their

01:05:51   notarization server, I have not noticed that delay because I'm not benchmarking them. And

01:05:57   it still seems to be fractions of a second, but then I do have a good internet connection and I'm

01:06:01   not specifically trying to thwart it. So I'm not quite sure what the solution is here, except that

01:06:07   this seems like another one of those things that we just may have to learn as a part of modern

01:06:12   computing. That disabling system integrity protection is not the right answer for most

01:06:18   people. And that having to check an unknown executable before it runs is just going to be

01:06:24   a fact of life. Again, except for in a controlled scenario where you're running in a data center and

01:06:30   the whole machine is locked down and you're not, new arbitrary programs aren't arriving on it

01:06:34   willy-nilly. In that case, yeah, you can just run whatever's there as fast as possible. But

01:06:38   in the general case, kind of like having to contact a server to do sophisticated text to

01:06:44   speech because the server and data center has better machine learning algorithms than your

01:06:48   phone does or whatever, or a larger data set in memory. Those are all just probably facts of life.

01:06:55   I don't know. Have you two experienced any of the slowness that is described in these articles,

01:07:00   or do you just not even know what's happening? I mean, I think I haven't noticed the executable

01:07:06   checking slowness. What I noticed is what I was originally complaining about a few weeks ago,

01:07:10   when I think we should also prompt at this blog post, was open save dialogues take a few extra

01:07:16   seconds to show up a lot of the time. And that just makes the whole system feel slow to me.

01:07:21   The actual executable thing being talked about here, I don't think I've noticed it.

01:07:26   The open save one doesn't seem like it would be a security thing, but you really don't know?

01:07:31   Well, it could be because I don't know too much about how the system is architected, but

01:07:37   I think the trust demon that runs in the background, I think it's TCC or one of those,

01:07:42   one of the sandboxing things on Mac OS, one of the background processes that manages the whole thing,

01:07:48   is called in reaction to open save dialogues to see if the app has access to whatever path is

01:07:54   being opened or saved to. So that is probably related. I'm guessing it feels like either

01:08:02   it's that or it's something about iCloud that has changed.

01:08:04   Oh yeah, the PowerBox process, whatever is the PowerBox thing that actually--

01:08:08   Yeah, yeah, whatever that is.

01:08:09   It's like your app doesn't-- I don't know under what circumstances that's used versus when it's

01:08:13   not, but yeah, I remember when that was introduced, it was like, hey, it used to be that when your app

01:08:17   threw up an open save dialog box, your app would call into whatever framework, AppKit or Carbon or

01:08:22   whatever, and that would put an open save dialog box on your screen and you would tell it how to

01:08:25   configure it and then you'd get the result. But that would be that would A, all happen inside

01:08:30   your process and B, that would literally be a window in your program, that if you wanted to,

01:08:34   you could walk your own window list and you would find that window. But the security thing that they

01:08:39   added many years ago was that's not even going to be your window. You're going to call the same API

01:08:44   in AppKit or Carbon probably wasn't around by then, but you're going to call the same API to

01:08:47   make an open save dialog box and then what's going to happen is using XPC, we're going to tell some

01:08:52   other daemon on the system, hey, this app wants an open save dialog box and that daemon is going

01:08:57   to display the open save dialog box. If you did PS on it or you did a process tree, you'd see that

01:09:01   that window that's an open save dialog box doesn't even belong to your app. It's not even the parent

01:09:05   process. The parent process is whatever, a TCC thing or a PowerBox D or whatever the hell it's

01:09:10   called and that would present the open save and that would run in a sandbox and be all locked down

01:09:15   and only have the permissions that it's allowed to have based on what your app does and yada yada

01:09:18   and the user would use that open save dialog box to find the file that it wanted and pick,

01:09:22   check all the check boxes or whatever and then hit open or cancel and then it would return again

01:09:27   through XPC back to your application. Oh, here's what they did with the open save dialog box. So in

01:09:31   that scenario, I can imagine like, oh, I'm trying to do XPC to the PowerBox daemon or whatever the

01:09:36   hell and it's asleep or it's swapped out or there's a bug in it where it gets real confused

01:09:41   about whether you have permission to do something or not or it's talking to the lower layer

01:09:44   database to try to figure out if you have permissions. Yeah, I can see how that

01:09:49   cuts all things down, but I haven't, like I said, I haven't seen that one. So I don't know. Like,

01:09:55   this is the weird thing about Catalina. Everyone has their own little variety of bugs.

01:09:59   I was just going to say that.

01:10:00   If this is a problem, wouldn't it be happening to everybody? But it's,

01:10:05   everyone doesn't have the same thing. It's not like there's some systemic thing that all the

01:10:08   open save dialog boxes are super slow. I mean, just, you know, here, BB at it now. I hit command

01:10:15   O and the window came up pretty much instantly. Like, I don't know, like it doesn't make any sense.

01:10:19   Yeah, super weird.

01:10:20   And this, by the way, I mean, I'm assuming, I'm surprised that Marco hasn't filed a

01:10:25   feedback on that, but I feel the same way as Casey did when I think of these...

01:10:28   Surprise.

01:10:30   ...these issues that I have that, like, I would feel bad filing it because it's, you know,

01:10:36   because if you're a developer, you know how your heart sinks when you get a report like this. And

01:10:40   it's like, what am I supposed to do with this? You had a weird thing happen once on your computer.

01:10:44   Like, great. Thanks for telling me. What I can't, that's not actionable. I don't know what to do

01:10:49   with that. I suppose they would say, oh, file it anyway. Cause if we could get a thousand of those,

01:10:52   then we'll know it's actually a problem. But I think the issue is that A, most people don't

01:10:56   know how to send a feedback at all. And B, the people who do are mostly programmers and they

01:11:00   feel the same way and they intentionally self-censor by not sending them. And so Apple

01:11:04   thinks that this is not a problem. But honestly, even if a thousand people told them, hey, sometimes

01:11:08   there's a delay, it's still not actionable. It's like, well, I don't know. What am I doing about

01:11:12   that? I try to do it every time I hit commando. It works fine on my system. It works for me. Like,

01:11:16   it's frustrating as a developer to try to not be able to reproduce it. I mean, I suppose we could

01:11:22   all do a SysDiagnos. Like, I don't know. I always wonder if that's just a Bitcoin miner. You ever

01:11:26   think about that? I think it's just a deflection, honestly. It's like, hey, this didn't have a

01:11:32   SysDiagnos, so I guess we can demand it and then probably close it a few weeks later when they

01:11:37   don't do it. I mean, like, especially with a non-actionable problem, you're like, I don't know,

01:11:41   maybe if I can see like what kernel extensions they're running, like, and then like, if you get

01:11:44   a thousand of them and like all thousand of them are running like the carbon black kernel extension,

01:11:49   be glad you don't know what that is, then maybe you say, aha, that might be it. But yeah,

01:11:56   sorry, Apple. I mean, we want this to be fixed, but we don't know how to help you. Help us help you.

01:12:01   And it isn't our job to fix it. Like, it's theirs. It's their product. It's their job. They have

01:12:06   plenty of resources. They should be able to fix themselves without us doing SysDiagnos.

01:12:10   I do want them to know it exists. Hi, Apple. These things exist. I just don't know how to

01:12:14   help get them fixed again. And not our job, but I want them to be fixed as a user. And so if I

01:12:19   could help in that, I would. I just don't know how. So, Jon, I hear that come around WWDC time,

01:12:25   which is approaching, you're going to be getting yourself a sweet, sweet gaming MacBook Pro.

01:12:30   This story has been here for a while and we kept avoiding it because it's a sketchy rumor

01:12:36   and it's old. But what prompted me to push up in the show notes was Quinn Nelson's video he did on

01:12:46   it, YouTube video he did about it, which has a clickbaity title, but you know, hey, it's YouTube,

01:12:51   what can you do? Which is called Apple's Next Failure. And he talks about the prospects of

01:12:59   Apple making a gaming anything. Like the rumor is that they're going to announce high-end gaming

01:13:04   MacBook or iMac. I love these rumors. They're like, it could be a laptop or an iMac. We're

01:13:09   not sure. That's kind of broad. Right. Yeah. This is the quote, Apple plans to reduce high-end gaming

01:13:14   computer edits to the WWDC developers conference. This is how old the story is when it's saying

01:13:18   Apple plans to release 2020. I think this is pre-cancellation, pre-COVID everything. According

01:13:23   to a questionable and as yet unsubstantiated report from Taiwan's Economic Daily News,

01:13:27   details are slim, but the report claims the computer may be a large screen laptop or an

01:13:31   all-in-one desktop with a price tag of up to $5,000, suggesting that it could be either a

01:13:36   MacBook Pro or an iMac Pro. This computer would supposedly be tailored toward esports,

01:13:40   AKA competitive video gaming. Right. So I think the reason everyone has ignored this story aside

01:13:47   from the sketchy sourcing and aside from the fact that they can't even decide if it's going to be a

01:13:50   laptop or a Mac, like I look at this and I think, look, if there's any shred of truth in here,

01:13:57   I think what it would be is that Apple has computers in the pipeline that have less

01:14:04   embarrassing GPUs in them. Like, and you could imagine someone determining that and saying, aha,

01:14:10   that must mean they're making a gaming thing because Apple usually uses fairly embarrassing

01:14:15   GPUs. And now there's some model supposedly in some pipeline somewhere that's using like

01:14:20   an actual good GPU and it's expensive. Like the whole computer is expensive, although obviously,

01:14:26   how the hell would they know that? Like anything with pricing is not probably not going to be in

01:14:29   the parts supply chain. Anyway, I can imagine a story spinning out of some piece of information

01:14:34   that says basically like Apple's using good GPUs. Some of Apple's GPUs are actually pretty good.

01:14:38   Like the, the Vega 64, when it was introduced in the iMac Pro, that's pretty good GPU for a computer

01:14:43   that doesn't have cards and is an all-in-one, right? Does it make it a gaming PC? No,

01:14:48   not by any stretch of the imagination. And not to mention that the thing that makes a computer like

01:14:53   tailored towards esports or competitive video gaming is its ability to play games that are,

01:14:58   that are played competitively and no Macs really have that unless they boot into Windows.

01:15:03   That's a whole other story. But that's what the video is about. Quinn's video about

01:15:08   the prospect of Apple making a gaming PC. And you know, I enjoyed watching it because he starts off

01:15:14   saying like, this is not going to happen. Apple doesn't get gaming. It's, you know,

01:15:18   here are all the reasons why this is a terrible idea and wouldn't work. And he, he mostly gets

01:15:23   most of those. Like it's, it's fun when I watch his videos, I forget, you know, one of the things

01:15:28   about being old is you forget that you're old and you, you look at people and you're like,

01:15:31   "Ah, that person's probably my age." Quinn is not my age. He's like half my age. I don't want to

01:15:37   think about it, but like I watch him do the video. I'm like, "Look, there's a dude." Like, "Hey,

01:15:42   yeah, I'm a dude. He's a dude. We're practically the same age." But when, when I see him when he's

01:15:46   talking about like Mac and gaming and he's talking about stuff that's like, practically feels like

01:15:51   current events to me, but literally happened to be like either before he was born or when he was

01:15:54   a toddler, it's clear that he wasn't actually there. And it's like, it's like the history

01:15:58   effect of like, if you weren't there and you just have to sort of research something for a video,

01:16:03   it's not always easy to get the straight story on things. So at one point he says, and I don't want

01:16:08   to pick on Quinn because like this can happen for anybody. If I had to do research on something that

01:16:11   happened when my parents were kids, I would get it wrong too. And they would correct me, right?

01:16:15   Because if you weren't there, it's hard to know, but it's a quote that says, "The Mac was actually

01:16:19   viewed as a viable alternative to Windows gaming PCs." This is around the time of Marathon. That

01:16:24   was never true. It has never been true. Like literally never. You know, Mac fans, which I was

01:16:31   on, you know, we love Marathon because like the Mac finally has a good game. A game that might make

01:16:38   PC people jealous because you don't have this game and this game is really good. And there was the

01:16:43   whole classic Mac gaming scene where I'd argue there were tons of games that were really good

01:16:47   and only on the Mac, but at no point was a Mac actually viewed as a viable alternative to Windows

01:16:54   gaming PC. Never, literally never. Even when the Mac, I would argue, had overall better games,

01:16:59   like back in the DOS days before like games got good graphics, the Mac, I think,

01:17:04   had a pretty good crop of games. It was never a viable alternative to gaming PCs.

01:17:07   Right. And that's like the rose colored glasses of like, well, the Mac used to be a contender

01:17:12   of games, but now not. It never was. And the reason it never was is mostly not having to do

01:17:16   with hardware. And again, Quinn goes in the video back and forth between what's, you know, hardware

01:17:20   isn't really the hard thing, except actually it is kind of hard. If you don't try to do it, you're

01:17:22   going to have crappy hardware, witness all the GPUs that Apple has in its computers now. But the real

01:17:26   problem is what games are you going to run on it? How are you going to get any software? You have to

01:17:31   court game developers. You have to support gaming APIs. You have to compete with Microsoft, which

01:17:35   has its own proprietary gaming API that works on Xbox and PCs, but does not work on Macs. And,

01:17:41   you know, or you can build a shim layer to it like they do in Linux where this is Linux front end,

01:17:45   you know, that emulates DirectX or translates DirectX calls into whatever, you know,

01:17:50   OpenGL thing that Linux supports. It's super complicated. And Quinn also goes into this video,

01:17:55   I thought, it's interesting, the fact that mobile gaming revenue is bigger than console and PC

01:18:01   gaming combined. And, you know, in current days, he has stats from 2019. We all kind of know that

01:18:07   intuitively, like, yeah, most people play mobile games because, you know, most people are not

01:18:12   quote unquote gamers. And what do people who aren't gamers play? Everybody plays games,

01:18:16   well, they just play mobile. We call them casual games, right? But there are more of them than

01:18:21   there are gamers, right? Mobile gaming marketing is really big. And unlike the console and PC,

01:18:27   well, certainly unlike the PC gaming market, in the mobile market on Apple's platforms,

01:18:31   Apple gets 30% of all those sales. Microsoft does not get 30% of all Windows game sales. They would

01:18:38   love to get 30% of all Windows game sales. They do not. And I don't know what the cuts are for

01:18:42   the console makers, but it's probably better than PC game platforms, right? And he also goes into,

01:18:48   of course, Apple Arcade is another way for Apple to try to get money out of the gaming world.

01:18:53   But none of those things have anything to do with what we think of as quote unquote real games,

01:18:57   esports, competitive gaming, powerful GPUs. So I encourage you to check out this video

01:19:04   other than disregarding the slightly rose colored view of the past of the Mac. It's interesting to

01:19:09   explore in entertaining ways. Videos are always entertaining. What the possibilities are for a

01:19:16   gaming Mac. I would love to see Apple rededicate itself to gaming. Stranger things have happened.

01:19:24   Another thing that might have come up in Quinn's research and might have not made the cut for the

01:19:27   video was that at one point in the fairly recent, in this old man's memory, timeframe was Apple had

01:19:35   a push into gaming. They had a bunch of APIs, you know, fancifully called sprockets, input sprockets.

01:19:44   What was it like gaming sprockets? Like there was a bunch of libraries essentially

01:19:48   for interacting with game controllers, for drawing things on the screen.

01:19:52   Apple had its own drawing, a 3D drawing API called, what was it? Quick draw, 3D rave. I'm getting it

01:19:59   screwed up. We'll find links for the show notes. But for a while they had an actual team at Apple

01:20:03   who was basically doing what, you know, the equivalent of what the team at Microsoft did

01:20:06   in writing DirectX. We're going to make APIs for the Mac platform whose sole purpose is

01:20:12   to write games. Even today, Apple has SpriteKit, arguably SceneKit, and there's always WWDC sessions

01:20:18   about how to build a game. But in reality, when people build games, they build them on

01:20:24   the big cross-platform engines like Unity or Unreal or whatever. They use DirectX, they use OpenGL.

01:20:29   Apple no longer supports OpenGL. We'll probably remove it from the system sometime soon.

01:20:33   Apple has Metal, which is great, but Metal only runs on Apple platforms and does not help you

01:20:39   target consoles or Windows PCs. Apple tends to ship weaker GPUs. The only machine Apple sells

01:20:46   with an upgradeable GPU is this incredibly expensive monstrosity next to me, which I thank

01:20:51   you for, Apple, but no one else is buying that computer. So if Apple decided, you know, like it

01:20:57   did back in the Sprocket days, if Apple decided we're going to get hardcore into gaming, boy,

01:21:02   they have an uphill road. Like, I don't think they would do what they did with Sprockets and say,

01:21:06   we're going to do it all ourselves and make proprietary stuff, but that's just what they did

01:21:09   with Metal, which, granted, you know, just Apple means Mac, iOS, Apple TV, iPadOS, what am I

01:21:17   forgetting? HomePod? I don't know. Metal is an important thing for Apple. Metal is great.

01:21:24   Metal is better than their poorly supported OpenGL was, but nobody is writing games on top of Metal,

01:21:33   you know, big cross platform games. The good thing is that the engine support Metal, like Unity

01:21:38   and Unreal can support Metal and people can build their games on top of that, which helps,

01:21:41   but it's still kind of an uphill battle and it's still very difficult to say like, oh,

01:21:45   here's a game that was made for the PC and it uses DirectX and it's available on the Xbox and

01:21:49   Windows. How do we get that game on the Mac? It's like, well, reboot your Mac into Windows because

01:21:54   there's no way in hell to run that on the Mac. If Apple developed its own DirectX translation

01:21:59   layer for those games and found some way to run it, just like Valve did with its Linux,

01:22:03   you know, gaming thing that I forgot the name of that is talked about in this video,

01:22:06   that could kind of happen. But boy, it would take a hell, it would take an effort, let's put it this

01:22:11   way. It would take an effort bigger than their effort to rededicate themselves to the Mac,

01:22:15   which we've talked about a lot in the show. It's like, oh, the Mac has been neglected. Let's have

01:22:18   this big round table. We hear you pro users. You want better Macs. We're going to make a better Mac

01:22:24   about four years from now. We'll fix the keyboard. And then also we'll eventually make a Mac Pro and

01:22:29   John will buy it and it will be great. And like, that was a big effort and it took them a long time.

01:22:34   But they did it right. It was like this thing that they had neglected and they announced they're

01:22:38   going to rededicate themselves to it. And they have, like we had a couple shows ago where like,

01:22:42   hey, guess what? All the Macs are good now. Apple fulfilled its promise to rededicate itself to the

01:22:46   Mac and fix the Mac line from being crappy to being good. Trying to make a quote unquote gaming

01:22:54   Mac and makes Macs viable in the gaming world would take a much bigger effort than what they

01:22:59   did for the Mac. And, you know, again, if mobile gaming is bigger than console and PC gaming combined

01:23:06   and Apple already gets a 30% cut of that entire market on its platforms for the most part, well,

01:23:12   that'd be a tough sell inside Apple to say we're going to dedicate even more resources than we did

01:23:15   to the Mac resurgence. And what we're going to do, we're going to do it about gaming. The only thing

01:23:19   that makes me, gives me a little twitch about this is like, well, Apple is doing a lot with AR

01:23:23   and yeah, there are uses for AR other than gaming. Maybe the primary uses are other than gaming,

01:23:27   but they just bought a VR company and you know, they, at one point they were considering building

01:23:33   a car. So it's really hard, really hard to count Apple out on anything. Obviously I would love for

01:23:39   them to rededicate themselves to gaming. I would love for them to finally get gaming to court game

01:23:44   developers to do what Microsoft did. Like, but I'm, I'm as big a Microsoft curmudgeon as anybody,

01:23:49   but when Microsoft said we're going to get into the console gaming market, they did, they did it.

01:23:56   They dedicated years and billions of dollars and they are now a player in that market. And they

01:24:01   learned how to deal with game developers and they learned how to make good games and learned how to

01:24:05   buy and support good game companies. Hell, they bought Bungie out from under all smack users,

01:24:09   even though they kind of, you know, split off after that. Anyway, Microsoft did it.

01:24:13   Not that you're upset.

01:24:14   What year was when they, when they bought Bungie?

01:24:16   Yeah, just you're not upset about that to this day. Not a bit.

01:24:19   Two, 2000 or something. Anyway. Yeah. Microsoft proves that it's possible. Like if, you know,

01:24:25   again, Microsoft is already in gaming, but they decided to get into the console gaming and they

01:24:28   did it. It's possible. This is the thing you can do. And Apple certainly has enough money

01:24:31   and talent to do it, but I'm not sure if the upside will ever, uh, you know, justify that

01:24:38   kind of investment. So until then I just have these sketchy rumors and a, uh, Snazzy Labs

01:24:44   video to comfort me in the night.

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01:26:46   and sponsoring our show. Okay, let's do some Ask ATP. And we begin this week with the weakest muscle,

01:26:58   right? What type of view do you guys use in the Finder? I don't even know the names for these

01:27:04   things. Generally speaking, I use just the list view, which is the of the four boxes, it is the

01:27:13   second one. Occasionally, and I find I typically do this when I'm digging through TV stuff that's

01:27:19   loaded into Plex, but I'm looking at the files on the Synology. I'll use the thing that it looks

01:27:24   like a cover flow icon, but it's not cover flow. It's like the multi pane view, you know what I'm

01:27:28   talking about, which is the third of the four icon. No, actually the cover flow is literally.

01:27:33   Go to the menu bar, please, Casey. You're killing me with this toolbar. You're killing John here.

01:27:37   First of all, don't show the toolbar on the Viner. Second of all, go to the view menu, please.

01:27:42   Sorry, as list or as, you can tell how often I use the view menu. Anyway, I use the list view,

01:27:49   which I should now from now on call the list view or occasionally the columns view. I pretty much

01:27:55   never use the gallery view, even when I'm looking at photos, and I very rarely use the icons view.

01:28:01   That is my answer. Marco, what do you use? And then John, after that, you can tell us the

01:28:06   correct answer, please. I use a list view for almost everything. I think the only list view.

01:28:12   Yeah. I think the only time that I don't use list view is when Finder forgets my preferences and

01:28:18   resets it. But otherwise, list view all the way. I like that Marco correctly called the list view.

01:28:23   I think we messed up Casey about making him look at the view menu. And I also don't go to the menu,

01:28:28   but at some point in the past 16 years, Mac OS X put in that menu, it says view. And this is weird

01:28:35   because it would be hard to find this in Apple's human interface guidelines. But the top items are

01:28:39   as icons, as list, as columns, and as gallery. And the as is lowercase.

01:28:45   Yeah. Are there any other places where a menu item appears as a lowercase letter?

01:28:49   Like, because they're trying to, it's trying to be a continuation. It's trying to, as if the title

01:28:53   is view as icons, view as list, view as columns. And if you were doing that, it'd be view and then

01:28:57   lowercase as, and then icons, I suppose. It's weird. Anyway, back in the day, I'm pretty sure

01:29:04   the view menu said icon list, you know, stuff that didn't have column. Anyway. So all this is to say,

01:29:12   don't call it icons view Casey, it's icon view. It's weird that it's view as list instead of

01:29:19   view as lists because I don't like looking at this menu. I'm closing this menu. Anyway.

01:29:24   I mean, honestly, I think it should be called view as hamburger because we are taught that

01:29:29   that icon that toggles it on is the hamburger icon, right? For hamburger menus. So there

01:29:34   should be hamburger view. Stop looking at the toolbar.

01:29:39   It's so alien to me to think that people use the finder with the toolbar visible all the time. And

01:29:43   I banished, as we know, banish toolbar entirely because I'm trying to recreate the finder of my

01:29:47   youth and failing because the finder fights me every step of the way. I use primarily list view

01:29:53   in a finder window that has no sidebar and no toolbar. Thank you very much. It just has a title

01:29:58   bar. And then it has a little strip where it says how many items and how much space is available.

01:30:02   And then it has a bunch of columns. That's it. That's my main view. If you look at my finder

01:30:07   windows right now, they are all in this view except for one. I used to be big on icon view

01:30:12   back in the day, back when the finder was spatial and I could arrange my icons to look beautiful.

01:30:17   I can arrange my windows to look beautiful and everything was just arranged just so and it stayed

01:30:20   that way literally forever and never moved. Then I use icon view a lot. And of course I had less

01:30:26   stuff on your computer because the hard drive was 10 megabytes or whatever the hell it was.

01:30:28   Right. I have like a top level set of folders and then I have applications folders and there

01:30:33   were subfolders for games and they all tiled beautifully and all my icons were arranged based

01:30:37   on what was my favorites and how, you know, you know how people arrange their home screens

01:30:41   on their phones now and all the obsession they have about getting their home scene set up just

01:30:44   right and arranging them by color and putting the apps where they're an easy reach and your comment,

01:30:48   you know, all that crap. That was how the finder worked. This is the best way to explain to like

01:30:52   modern people why people would spend time arranging stuff in the finder and getting

01:30:58   custom icons from icon factory and putting, this is all classic Mac OS mind you, right?

01:31:02   We would do it for the same reason people would arrange their home screens because you were

01:31:05   looking at it every day and you wanted to make a nice little place and like springboard on your

01:31:09   iPhone, it would remember you wouldn't turn on your phone one day and like everything's all

01:31:13   scrambled up. It's like, Oh, like you would never arrange your home screen with that happened. Right.

01:31:16   So the Mac OS 10 finder has never really been nice in that way, but the one window that I fight

01:31:23   constantly to keep arranged in some way is the applications folder and the applications folder is

01:31:29   in a specific position and proportion on my screen. I view it as icon so I can see my beautiful app

01:31:34   icons. I don't bother trying to arrange them because that is way too much task on the Mac OS

01:31:39   finder. I just have them sorted by name. And that lets me not deal with that. And I adjust the grid

01:31:44   size to be just so, so not too many names wrap too much, but they're not truncated either. And it's

01:31:49   like what my current one on my giant screen is six icons across and 10 down, right? And that's my main

01:31:58   icon view. And there are other ones too. I have a bunch of photos, things that are an icon view with

01:32:01   big previews at very large size. So I can see the thumbnails and all sorts of stuff like that. Like

01:32:05   it varies, but in general, it's all list. I'm glad we settled that. Stephon writes as a long and loyal

01:32:11   listener from Germany. I have a question. I love my 16 inch MacBook pro, but I can't always protect

01:32:15   the display from the curious hand, little hands of other young family members. How do you clean your

01:32:20   display? You know, I don't have a good answer for this. And I think John, you have a bespoke cloth,

01:32:25   or is that only for the super duper, duper, duper fancy version of your display?

01:32:29   John: It's not just for the super duper. I did get the cloth. I mean, the, the super duper one

01:32:33   is like, you can't use anything but the cloth, but they all come with the cloth. So I do have

01:32:37   the cloth. So my advice for cleaning displays, like kids have their grimy hands on, which I can

01:32:43   totally relate to because our laptop screen looks like a disaster. A because kids are pigs, but B

01:32:47   because the kids still pick the laptop. They've still picked the laptop up by the screen, which

01:32:51   just, Oh God, it's painful. They don't know. They don't know how to treat things nicely. Anyway.

01:32:56   My suggestion, and this is going to sound dumb and also slightly dangerous Casey,

01:33:02   is just use water. I don't use any cleaning solutions whatsoever. Water, the good old

01:33:08   universal solvent, it will not cut grease as well as a, any kind of cleaner or alcohol or anything

01:33:13   well, but at various times Apple has more or less strangely suggested just use water. Eventually the

01:33:20   finger grease will come off a mildly damp, soft cloth. It's you seems like it's not even damp

01:33:26   enough to do the job because if you make it real damp and then you try to rub and the fingerprint

01:33:30   doesn't come out and you rub harder and then you squeeze out a drop of water and it slides down your

01:33:34   screen into your keyboard. Now you're Casey. So like a mildly, a mildly damp, soft cloth.

01:33:44   And then you just have to go over the same spot. Lots of times get, you know,

01:33:48   rinse the grease off of it, rinse the rag out again. Just plain water will actually get your

01:33:53   screen clean unless like your kids took a Sharpie to it or something in which case, sorry about

01:33:56   that. But just for finger grease, just plain water will do it. That's my advice. Not too much water,

01:34:02   not too much, mostly plants. That's, that's my advice. As for, as for my, uh, my fancy screen,

01:34:08   like my television, although this, the streak has ended, I think for my TV, but like my television

01:34:15   for many years, my pro display XDR screen has never been touched by human hands. Like the,

01:34:22   after coming from the factory, the front screen of my protos, literally never been touched by him.

01:34:26   I peeled off the big gigantic sticky static thing that covers it, carefully peeled it off by the big

01:34:32   handle and put it on my desk. And I've touched the side of the display and I've touched the stand and

01:34:37   I touched the bottom, but I have never touched the front and neither have any of my children.

01:34:41   And for the longest time, my TV was like that because I raised my children to be terrified of

01:34:45   going anywhere near the TV. It's like, ah, Hey, cause it could fall on them and killed them. But

01:34:48   be also don't touch daddy's TV. Pretty sh and my TV screen has never been cleaned by anything.

01:34:56   Right. It unlike a CRT, it doesn't attract dust. Remember that I was always a nightmare with CRT.

01:35:00   It's like it would attract dust to them with like the static electricity or whatever the hell they

01:35:03   could charge. Right. That doesn't happen with plasmas anyway. So there's no dust on it. Right.

01:35:07   I've dusted the top and the sides and everything, but I've never dusted the screen and there are no

01:35:11   fingerprints on the screen. Recently. I did find a smudge of something on the screen and I have to

01:35:14   deal with that. And I don't know where it came from. Maybe some kids sneeze or who knows what

01:35:18   the hell it was. So the streak is over for my TV after however many years, but as far as I'm aware,

01:35:23   my pro display XDR has literally never been touched. If someone did touch it,

01:35:26   I wouldn't use the soft cloth that came with it because that's packed away and pristine and the

01:35:30   original packaging up in the attic somewhere. I would just get a soft damp cloth and very gently

01:35:36   slowly remove the finger grease using only water. And actually I don't have to be that careful

01:35:40   because if I make a big bead of water and it drips down, it would just land on my desk and not go into

01:35:44   my keyboard. You didn't even give me a chance to finish. I asked you a question and then you

01:35:49   decided to go on a monologue. It's a tough crowd today, guys. Tough crowd. You can talk now. What

01:35:53   else do you have to say about? Oh, thank you, dad. I would love to, uh, I have an extremely

01:35:58   useful solution for this. So I hope you're happy that you delayed me telling you a cup of water on

01:36:04   your screen. Is that it? No, you're the one I'm saying to put water on the screen. Just a little

01:36:09   bit. Here's what you need to do. You need to buy yourself a Volvo XC90. And when you buy that Volvo

01:36:14   XC90, it comes with this absurdly overpriced cleaning microfiber cleaning cloth, which you

01:36:20   can actually buy on Amazon for $17. And that works, but just delightfully. And so if I ever

01:36:25   decide I need to clean screen, I just use that. Yeah. My solution is almost as bad as Casey's.

01:36:32   No, I just, yeah. Microfiber cloths are amazing. Uh, usually you don't even need any liquid. If

01:36:39   you can just like, you know, rub it gently with a microfiber cloth for, you know, five seconds,

01:36:43   you can get almost anything off of the screen. Uh, in the rare cases that you got some, you know,

01:36:48   real sticky, you know, sneeze blob on there or something that is, you really need like,

01:36:52   you know, help with a very, as John said, very slightly damp microfiber cloth can get off pretty

01:36:59   much anything. Um, if you need to go past that, which we probably don't, but if you need to go

01:37:04   past that, there are a whole bunch of various solutions sold by like, you know, office stores

01:37:10   and Amazon of like screen cleaning spray or something like that. Screen cleaning wipes

01:37:14   are a thing. I've used those before in the past. They seem fine. Uh, that being said,

01:37:20   I'm a little concerned that like, you don't, you don't really know what the chemical is they're

01:37:24   using. It might be harmful to your screens coding. It might not. It's kind of, you're kind of, you

01:37:29   know, rolling the dice with that. So it's not a great solution to rely on most of the time,

01:37:34   especially, you know, modern days, back in the olden days when it was just like, you know, a

01:37:38   basic matte plastic covering or a basic piece of glass, it was easier to recommend some kind of

01:37:44   like spray solution. But nowadays the screens have so many like specialty coatings on them to reduce

01:37:50   glare and stuff like that, that you don't really know what's going to damage that coating and

01:37:53   what's not. So ideally trying to use chemicals and try to just stick with microfiber cloths and water

01:37:59   basically. And that gets almost anything out. Yeah. The reason people always suggest microfiber

01:38:04   is they don't want you to scratch it. And you would think that like, if you use something like,

01:38:07   say a paper towel or a tissue, it's like, oh, that's not going to scratch it.

01:38:09   Oh don't do that. Oh don't do that. Right. Cause people think like, oh,

01:38:12   it's a paper towel. Look how soft it is. I can squish it up in my hand or whatever. But those

01:38:16   lots of paper products, unbeknownst to you have tiny abrasive things in them,

01:38:19   which is why people say microfiber now, all that said, it doesn't have to be a beautiful bespoke

01:38:24   microfiber. There are lots of sort of soft cleaning cloths. They're like the velvety ones

01:38:28   that you use for camera lenses or whatever. Like all you're looking for is not a textile that has

01:38:33   abrasive elements in it. I don't know what it is. It's abrasive, but little pieces of paper,

01:38:37   pulp or whatever the hell it is. Something like don't judge soft. What I'm saying is don't judge

01:38:42   softness, but like I feel it in my hand and it feels soft. That's not a great way to judge

01:38:46   softness. Mostly you'll probably be okay because especially with Apple's glass things, you're not

01:38:49   going to scratch it. You're not even going to scratch the only phobic coating probably with like

01:38:53   a soft tissue that's damp or whatever. But if you're going to be there, like rubbing away at

01:38:57   some greasy fingerprint, get a screen cleaning cloth. And the thing about screen cleaning classes,

01:39:02   they're, they don't last infinitely. They will slowly fill with finger spoo. Like,

01:39:06   it's just the nature. Like if you're getting it off your screen, where do you think it's going?

01:39:10   Yeah. When you throw something away, whereas away it's going on the cloth. Right. So you do

01:39:15   have to actually wash those cloths or clean them or get a new cloth at a certain point too. It's

01:39:19   another thing to keep in mind if you have a seriously gross screen situation. Finally,

01:39:23   Peter wants to know, do you use any tools to protect your kids on the internet? For example,

01:39:27   to restrict searches they can do on Google or YouTube. I know about YouTube Safe Search and

01:39:31   Cloudflare's DNS for families, but I was wondering if there are tools for Apple mail or iMessage.

01:39:36   I don't really have to worry about this yet because my kids are way too little. So I'm going to get

01:39:42   out of the way and let's start with the younger kids. Marco, what do you do? Pretty simple,

01:39:47   really. We don't do much yet. We have the parental controls on our kids iPad enabled,

01:39:56   but that's mostly just for the screen time limits of like limiting what hours in which it can be

01:40:01   used and, you know, total time and everything. Other than that, the thing is it's hard to use

01:40:08   technological measures to really 100% restrict what your kids can see online because not only

01:40:15   do most of the measures not actually work 100% and not only do kids find ways around them way

01:40:20   more than you might think and spread those ways amongst themselves and, you know, they're smarter

01:40:24   than you think and they figure it out. But also, it's kind of a game of whack-a-mole. Like you

01:40:30   never really can get it all, right? You're never going to protect your kids from seeing something

01:40:35   that is adult or inappropriate in nature if they're looking for that. So there's really no,

01:40:42   in my opinion, there's no substitute for just parenting of just monitoring what they're doing,

01:40:49   of like periodically going over and looking at what they're watching or what they're browsing

01:40:53   or whatever and talking to them about like, "Hey, here's the kind of thing you might run into if you

01:40:59   go looking for it or whatever." Or like, you know, tell them actual risks. As you can say, like,

01:41:04   there's some stuff out there that isn't appropriate for kids. Like if they're super young, you know,

01:41:07   you don't have to be gory and detailed about it, but you can just say like, you know, you might

01:41:11   find things of people swearing or, you know, other stuff or God knows what else they might find.

01:41:16   I think you just have to have some idea what your kid is actually looking at and that's

01:41:21   by simply like being there and monitoring what they're looking at. And when I say monitoring,

01:41:26   I'm not talking about like looking through their search history or like installing some kind of

01:41:31   creepy proxy. I'm saying like actually walk into the room and just like check on them. Like see,

01:41:36   you should have some idea the kinds of stuff they're watching or consuming or looking at online.

01:41:41   I think that's just, you know, basic modern parenting. And that's going to be better than

01:41:46   any kind of, you know, technological barrier you put in place, which is mostly just going to be

01:41:50   a thing that's going to annoy them when they try to do something legitimate and they're going to

01:41:53   try to get around. And then just, you know, as much as you can prepare your children for the realities

01:41:58   of what's in the world and that takes various forms. It's up to you what that means to you.

01:42:03   But, you know, the world is, you know, a big place with a lot of stuff going on, a lot of stuff on

01:42:08   the internet and it's out there. They're going to run into it. So if you can prepare them for

01:42:12   how to deal with it when they do run into it, I think you'll be better off than trying to prevent

01:42:17   it from ever happening. Every parent can kind of draw their own line of how much of their kids

01:42:21   privacy they want to invade versus safety. But I will just say that looking at a very young kid's

01:42:25   search history is hilarious because they'll like, they'll type in like how to fly, how to fly person,

01:42:33   how person fly. Like it's just once they learn how to write, they'll search for the most ridiculous

01:42:39   things and they will not give up like, because they won't get the results they expect because

01:42:42   they don't know how to formulate search queries or because they're asking like a really weird question

01:42:45   and they'll just keep trying. It's awesome. Anyway, what I did like when my kids were younger,

01:42:51   most of the major things that they're going to be interested in, the OS itself, the YouTube app,

01:42:59   Safari, whatever things that they're using, most of those have some kind of extremely weak advisory

01:43:08   level restrictions. And I've always used those just because I'm not trying to stop my kids from

01:43:14   things they're seeking out. What I'm trying to do is reduce the possibility that unintentionally

01:43:21   they will run across something. So, you know, there's an age restriction on like music or

01:43:25   YouTube says restrict content or, you know, it's 20 settings like the OS has one as well,

01:43:30   restrict content for under 17 or eight, you know, just turn all that stuff on it. Because

01:43:34   practically speaking, my experience has been, it doesn't stop the kids from getting to like,

01:43:40   they don't even know it's on. It doesn't stop them from getting to anything that they want to get to.

01:43:44   It also doesn't stop them from seeking out things that they shouldn't be seeing anyway. But what it

01:43:47   does stop them from is like they're looking for, you know, Daniel Tiger and they end up with like,

01:43:52   something entirely different because of some unfortunate coincidence of search terms.

01:43:56   Those features are ubiquitous and you should totally use them. In fact, even though my kids

01:44:00   are both teens now, I still have those, you know, restrict to 17 plus settings on, on basically

01:44:06   everything. Because they, well, A, they're not 17, not that I really care about those age things,

01:44:11   but B, it doesn't stop them from seeing anything really like, they, I watch rated R movies with

01:44:16   them when I think they're appropriate, but I rent those myself and practice, you know, they can get

01:44:21   to anything on YouTube they want to anyway. Like I'm not actually stopping them. If they really

01:44:25   want to seek out something that's quote unquote not age appropriate, they're totally going to get

01:44:28   to it. But I feel like kind of like how I pay for whatever this service that takes the ads off

01:44:34   YouTube. I'm just trying to make the sort of default that I'm trying to make the neutral game.

01:44:39   God, I keep doing destiny things. You guys don't understand. Anyway, I'm trying to make the default

01:44:43   environment, trying to, trying to get them a better neutral game, trying to make the default

01:44:48   environment without any super, oh, it's not even working. Anyway, I'm trying to make it so that if

01:44:54   they just act normally, then everything will be normal and they won't suddenly have like,

01:44:59   you know, animal mutilation or porn thrown in their face. If any of them come to me and say,

01:45:05   I got to see something for school and this is restricted, I'll just turn it off. Like I don't,

01:45:09   you know, I don't care, you know, they're old enough now, but I think that that really helped

01:45:14   it really helped me not have to be over their shoulder every second because a kid with

01:45:17   unrestricted access to the internet is going to land on things that they didn't want to see

01:45:22   by accident. And like I said, most of the things like YouTube and Apple's OS and things that let

01:45:28   you buy and see apps and buy and see TV shows or whatever, those restrictions and age ratings,

01:45:33   they work really well, especially for younger kids to just cut out most of the stuff that's

01:45:38   egregious. So that's what I suggest. And what it requires is everything that your kids are going

01:45:43   to be using, like if you use parental controls only then use three apps or whatever, you have

01:45:48   to look in every single one of those apps, find out does this service have parental controls? How

01:45:52   does it work? Can I make an account for my kid? Is it a sub account of mine? How do I put restrictions

01:45:56   on them? How do you know Apple's good about this? You know, you can make it so your kids account,

01:46:00   put it, make a family, you know, the Apple family thing and make your kids, your kids in that family

01:46:05   and make them have to ask you for approval to quote unquote, buy applications, even free ones.

01:46:10   And then you'll always know every single app they download because you'll get a notification on your

01:46:13   phone that says, you know, little Timmy wants to buy this app approve or reject. And you can look

01:46:19   at the app and the app store and it's going to be something you know, if it turns out that's one of

01:46:24   those exploitive free to play games, that's a perfect opportunity to go talk to little Timmy

01:46:28   about how this thing works. And they might still want it anyway, and you might be able to give it

01:46:32   to them. And then you get a notification five minutes later, it says little Timmy wants to do

01:46:35   an in app purchase for 500 coins or something inside the game. And then you can have a different

01:46:39   conversation with them, right? Those are the type of tools I'm, you know, talking about here.

01:46:43   They're not stopping anything. They're facilitating a dialogue and sort of filtering out the worst of

01:46:51   the worst. But you do have to, like Marco said, still be engaged. As your kids get older, they're

01:46:57   going to seek out things that they're quote unquote, not supposed to see. I'm not sure

01:47:01   everyone remembers, but we were all kids once too. Like that's what kids do. I don't think there's

01:47:07   any avoiding that. I don't think it's healthy to avoid that. Hopefully by that point you have done

01:47:14   well enough in raising your child that like things aren't going to go totally off the rails.

01:47:20   Sometimes it's out of your control. We're all doing the best we can.

01:47:22   Thanks to our sponsors this week, Squarespace, Linode, and Tom Bin, and we will see you next week.

01:47:30   [MUSIC]

01:47:33   Now the show is over. They didn't even mean to begin.

01:47:37   'Cause it was accidental. Oh, it was accidental. John didn't do any research.

01:47:46   Marco and Casey wouldn't let him. 'Cause it was accidental. Oh, it was accidental.

01:47:53   And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM. And if you're into Twitter,

01:48:02   you can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S. So that's Casey List, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M.

01:48:12   And T. Marco Arment, S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A, Syracuse. It's accidental. They didn't mean to.

01:48:26   [MUSIC]

01:48:33   Well, the show notes this week. Oh, wait, let me save. Just make sure.

01:48:37   So, well, are you doing it or am I? You are. I don't want to mess with you.

01:48:42   Okay. I wait until you're done and then I mess with it. That's my system.

01:48:47   I also edit in web text fields. Casey. Oh, my God. Please leave me alone. I do not have time.

01:48:52   Why are you so mean? Nobody edits it. How many times have we talked about this? Do not edit

01:48:56   text in web text fields. Never edit text in web text fields. Like, I don't know how long you have

01:49:02   to, like, what is it going to take for people to learn that? Never. Especially a web text field with

01:49:08   no features, like something I've built. It doesn't matter how many features it has. It's just, like,

01:49:12   it's just not a thing that you ever do. Like, I've been burned by that so many times, so many, like,

01:49:17   web BBSs. You'd be writing an awesome post and then you'd, like, accidentally close the tab or

01:49:23   the thing would crash or you, you know, like, it's just, you know, it would be gone. You'd be like,

01:49:26   oh, I have to write that again. It was right there. And I can't, I couldn't search all

01:49:30   RAM because of stupid protected memory. This is awful.

01:49:34   [beeping]

01:49:36   (beep)