379: The Everything’s OK Alarm


00:00:00   Moments ago, my wrist started vibrating kind of a lot over and over and over again.

00:00:06   And I was very confused, and then I realized, wait a second, this just happened a day or two back.

00:00:11   I know what this is. And I have on my Synology, there's a downloader app that you can point an RSS feed at,

00:00:20   or you can point it to an RSS feed, and it'll download all the things linked in the RSS feed.

00:00:25   And I do that for both ATP and analog. And we're going to talk a little later.

00:00:29   But we have changed the ATP website, and now my Synology is downloading all of our shows again, which is fine.

00:00:37   But what's interesting about that is I have a push notification sent to me when something downloads,

00:00:42   because typically I want to know these sorts of things, especially when they're automated,

00:00:45   because otherwise I may not think to check. And so I'm looking at 36 notifications on my iPhone lock screen, 37.

00:00:52   And it's still going, the entirety of the ATP back catalog being downloaded on my —

00:00:57   38 being downloaded on my Synology as we speak.

00:01:00   Your relationship with notifications is different than mine.

00:01:02   Yes.

00:01:03   You want to be notified when your background automation downloads a thing? That's the whole point.

00:01:08   I don't want to know. Just — I have the same automation, by the way, for my podcast.

00:01:12   But the idea of getting a notification, let alone a notification that makes it all the way to my wrist,

00:01:16   boy, that's the opposite of what I want.

00:01:18   Well, but see, the thing is, I do want to know what — I totally hear your perspective.

00:01:23   You are not at all wrong.

00:01:24   I want to hear — I want to know when it happens.

00:01:28   I just don't want to be clicking buttons to make it happen.

00:01:31   Everything's OK, alarm.

00:01:33   Yeah, yeah, exactly. Everything's OK. Everything's OK.

00:01:35   When this alarm is sounding, everything is fine. If that alarm ever stops, boy, look out.

00:01:39   How about getting a notification if it fails?

00:01:42   Uh, yeah, that'd be too easy.

00:01:43   How about a dead man switch where something just checks to see whether the new episode appears once per week,

00:01:49   and if it doesn't, then you get a notification.

00:01:50   All sorts of things you could do that would not result in the current risk shaking that you've got going on.

00:01:55   Hey, man, this is how I like my life, all right? Don't shame me. Don't shame my preferences.

00:01:59   Do you have the little LED on your nightstand?

00:02:01   Should it be on when the garage door is closed and off when it's not,

00:02:04   so you can wake up in the middle of the night and look to make sure the light is still shining?

00:02:07   Mm-hmm.

00:02:09   All right, so we have to start the show with amazing, amazing news.

00:02:13   I could not be happier to tell you that you can buy stuff from us now.

00:02:18   You can do that thing that Dubai Friday does so well.

00:02:21   You can give us your money if you would like.

00:02:24   We have the ATP store back up, and we have new shirts, we have mugs,

00:02:29   and we have a bunch of the old crap we already had, or, you know, had in the past.

00:02:32   So we have, for the very first time, the ATP mug.

00:02:35   It is a very good-looking, a black mug with the M-style ATP logo,

00:02:42   and it has a red interior, which looks very cool.

00:02:46   And then, Jon, would you like to take us through the Pro Max Triumph shirts,

00:02:50   and then we'll explain the kind of advanced version after that, please?

00:02:55   Sure.

00:02:56   This would have been our WWDC sale, of course.

00:02:59   Sad, you know, we're not all going to be at WWDC.

00:03:01   None of us will be there, in fact, because it's, you know, happening online for obvious reasons.

00:03:05   But every WWDC, we try to have some kind of idea for a new shirt,

00:03:11   and, you know, in keeping with whatever the theme of the year is,

00:03:14   or whatever we're talking about on the show, this year, what we decided to do is

00:03:19   bring back the, well, I don't know if I ever really left, the Pro Max shirt,

00:03:24   the one that's got the silhouettes of a bunch of different sort of Pro level Max

00:03:28   throughout Apple's history.

00:03:29   It used to have five silhouettes on it, ending with the trash can, right?

00:03:34   And so this year is the Pro Max Triumph shirt, because with the return of the Mac Pro,

00:03:40   the real Mac Pro, the one we were all waiting for, the one sitting next to me at my desk right now,

00:03:45   that is the sixth Mac, and that happily gives us all six colors of the typical Apple logo.

00:03:52   So the shirt is now complete.

00:03:54   It looks just like it did before, except now there is a sixth Mac at the end, the current Mac Pro.

00:03:59   And Casey had the brilliant idea, in keeping with past shirts that we've done in this spirit,

00:04:04   to say, "Okay, well, you've got the shirts here with the Pro Max on it ending with the new Mac Pro."

00:04:09   But we should make a version of it with wheels.

00:04:12   So we did.

00:04:13   So you can get the shirt with wheels or without.

00:04:17   Without wheels is just the standard feat, and with wheels,

00:04:19   and you'll see it's got the little wheels on the bottom.

00:04:21   Of course, the wheels cost a little bit more, right?

00:04:24   But how much would you pay for...

00:04:26   What is the quote I got to pull up from the website?

00:04:28   How much is a perfect wheel worth?

00:04:30   It turns out when it comes to t-shirts, the wheels are $4 more, so it's $1 per wheel.

00:04:36   So it's proportionally scaled to the horrendously expensive computer that's sitting next to me.

00:04:41   You don't have to pay an extra $400 for your wheels.

00:04:43   On your shirt, you just got to pay an extra $4.

00:04:45   So with wheels or without, in black and in white, in 100% cotton and in tri-blend,

00:04:50   many, many options, please go and rep the fully armed and operational line of Pro Max from Apple.

00:04:57   Indeed.

00:04:58   Yes, we are aware there are only two wheels visible on the shirt.

00:05:01   Just go with the joke, please.

00:05:02   No, all four are there.

00:05:03   They're just behind them.

00:05:04   It's a silhouette.

00:05:05   I'm just waiting for everyone to well, actually, you, John.

00:05:08   You think maybe we're just giving you two wheels and there's just cinder blocks on the backside?

00:05:11   All four wheels are on this shirt.

00:05:14   You should read the book Flatline.

00:05:16   Actually, don't.

00:05:17   It's terrible, but learn about 2D versus 3D.

00:05:20   Yep.

00:05:21   So we have mugs, we have the Pro Max shirt, both with and without wheels, in black and in white,

00:05:25   and men and women's, in tri-blend and in cotton.

00:05:28   We also have the original OG ATP logo shirt.

00:05:31   We have brought back the ATP hoodie.

00:05:33   We have had like three requests for the ATP polo. You're my people.

00:05:36   Of course, nobody needs a polo to go to work anymore, but that's neither here nor there.

00:05:39   But if you want a polo, if you want a collared shirt, that's there as well.

00:05:42   We also have the ATP hat and the enamel pins, which let me remind you, have a locking pin back.

00:05:47   So all of this stuff, you pre-order it sort of, kind of Kickstarter style.

00:05:52   It's the same thing we've always done.

00:05:53   You can order it up until June 7th.

00:05:55   And then once they have reached a certain threshold, which is very low, then our friends

00:06:00   at Cotton Bureau will start printing and fulfilling all these orders.

00:06:03   Now, one small note, also news for today, briefly.

00:06:08   We are going to be launching a membership program for ATP,

00:06:12   and we're going to be doing that sometime soon-ish.

00:06:15   So if you have to allocate your money in only one place, that's totally understandable.

00:06:20   But please keep in mind that there will be a membership option coming up soon.

00:06:24   But for shirts, for mugs, for polos, for hoodies, for hats, for pins,

00:06:29   all of those things are available now at ATP.fm/store.

00:06:33   Once again, ATP.fm/store.

00:06:37   And I would say on the balance here, if you want this merchandise, and it's nice, and it's cool,

00:06:42   buy it, right?

00:06:43   But if you only just want to give us money, you may have an opportunity to do that in the future.

00:06:47   That's it.

00:06:47   Also of note, which is probably only interesting to the super nerds amongst us,

00:06:53   we have a new website now.

00:06:55   And I would like to take credit for absolutely none of it,

00:06:58   because this was pretty much entirely Marco's work.

00:07:00   We are very excited that we have a brand new website.

00:07:03   That won't mean too much to most of you, I don't think,

00:07:07   except that now all, what, 380-ish episodes of this show are all back in the RSS feed.

00:07:14   There were very uninteresting reasons why that wasn't the case before,

00:07:17   but there was a technical limitation prior to Marco making us our bespoke CMS.

00:07:20   But now you can get all of the back catalog in the RSS feed.

00:07:25   We have links to all of the best podcast apps on iOS,

00:07:30   and actually, PocketCasts on Android as well.

00:07:32   And we have a new CMS.

00:07:34   Marco, would you mind taking us on a little nickel tour as to what's going on here?

00:07:38   Well, actually, you forgot to also mention the other big news.

00:07:42   Neutral also has the new CMS.

00:07:45   So Neutral has also gotten a redesign.

00:07:48   Our long-retired podcast, last episode of which was about, what, six years ago?

00:07:53   Something like that, yeah.

00:07:55   So for various reasons, we've had this site on Squarespace since we started.

00:08:00   By the way, Squarespace is sponsoring this episode.

00:08:02   We've now moved it to Linode, another sponsor of this episode.

00:08:05   Each sponsor gets seven years to host the site.

00:08:08   Yeah, exactly.

00:08:09   Yeah.

00:08:11   And I think some people might view this as like, oh no, they love Squarespace.

00:08:14   But Squarespace covers a lot of needs,

00:08:17   and I think it really says something that covered all of our needs for seven years.

00:08:20   That's pretty good.

00:08:22   All of the needs of three extremely particular, extremely annoying nerds.

00:08:28   That website did just fine for us for seven years.

00:08:30   Exactly.

00:08:31   It is not an indictment at all of Squarespace.

00:08:33   Yeah, and to replace it, it took me like three weeks of constant work

00:08:37   to replace like a one percent of the functionality that Squarespace offered.

00:08:42   Oh, and theirs is still better.

00:08:44   But yeah, we basically, you know, I've wanted to do this for a while for lots of reasons.

00:08:49   Mainly it will be supporting the new membership program that we will be launching.

00:08:52   As Casey said, you know, we're not going to really talk about that yet.

00:08:55   Frankly, don't get too excited.

00:08:57   The details aren't very interesting.

00:08:58   It's exactly what you'd expect from the three of us.

00:09:03   Yeah, but yeah, it's not, it's nothing interesting.

00:09:05   And the things that you get for free,

00:09:09   our current plan is to leave you getting those things for free.

00:09:11   So anyway, so don't worry about anything like that.

00:09:13   It's nothing bad.

00:09:13   So yeah, so basically wanted to write a new CMS.

00:09:17   Did a couple of super cool custom things.

00:09:19   People listening on the live stream now notice the live stream now automatically

00:09:22   turns itself on and off when we go live and when we don't go live.

00:09:25   I don't have to like do this weird like shell script copy into an iframe kind of thing

00:09:29   that I was doing before.

00:09:30   It now shows the number of live listeners right there on the page.

00:09:34   For the rest of the site, it's, you know, just a pretty minimal bare bones CMS.

00:09:39   As Casey mentioned, one of the reasons we wanted to do this for a while was the RSS feed limit.

00:09:45   So now all of our episodes will show in every podcast player.

00:09:49   Going all the way back to episode one.

00:09:50   Although man, those episodes sound awful.

00:09:53   I was going back testing a few of them and testing the neutral episodes as well

00:09:57   because they were recorded, you know, around that same time span.

00:09:59   And oh boy, our microphones are way better now.

00:10:03   But yeah, anyway, it's a podcast website.

00:10:07   It isn't that interesting otherwise.

00:10:09   I built it all on PHP.

00:10:10   It's very minimal, like CSS and JavaScript usage.

00:10:15   There's no frameworks on the front end at all.

00:10:18   John tried to convince me to use the JavaScript fetch API instead of XML HTTP request.

00:10:23   And I looked at an example of the fetch API and had all these like asyncs and .then, .then, .then.

00:10:30   - No libraries required though.

00:10:31   It's built into the browser.

00:10:33   - So that I like.

00:10:34   I like that a lot because like this site,

00:10:37   there's no use anywhere as far as I know of jQuery.

00:10:40   Now eventually when we do the membership,

00:10:42   we'll have to add stripes API to it and that might add some of that stuff.

00:10:46   So we'll see how long I can keep that going.

00:10:48   But you know, right now it's all just, you know, really vanilla stuff.

00:10:52   In the version of the site that you all are seeing,

00:10:54   there's almost no JavaScript at all.

00:10:55   On the back end version that has like the editing interface for the post,

00:10:58   there's a little bit, but it's like, you know, maybe a few hundred lines, it's not much.

00:11:01   It's all very, very simple stuff.

00:11:03   And it's funny, like I looked at the fetch API as I was saying,

00:11:06   and like that whole style of like the chaining of the do this, .then, do this, .then, .it's all that stuff.

00:11:15   - All right, hold on, let me just stop you there.

00:11:17   Let me just stop you there and let me simplify for all of us who are not old and boring.

00:11:21   Marco discovered promises and did not like what he saw.

00:11:23   - It was a common reaction to be fair,

00:11:25   but we just all had that same reaction what, six years ago or whatever,

00:11:28   but Marco is getting to it now.

00:11:30   - Yeah, exactly.

00:11:31   - And he's having the reaction that I think everybody has

00:11:33   upon first encountering promises and futures and all that good stuff.

00:11:37   - To me, it looks like AppleScript.

00:11:40   - Oh, come on, that's a little harsh.

00:11:43   - You look at it and you're like, okay, this is trying to be minimal and readable,

00:11:49   but is it writable and is it understandable?

00:11:52   - That's the thing, it's not a style, it's not a syntax thing,

00:11:57   it is actually a functional thing and they're trying to find a way to make the functionality

00:12:02   palatable and usable, but in the end, what it's trying to accomplish is a functional thing,

00:12:07   which is a functional thing that is maybe not important to you

00:12:11   when you're writing client-side JavaScript to do a thing that you would normally do sync recently

00:12:14   or whatever, but anyway, we don't have time to go into futures now.

00:12:18   I'm not here to sell you on it, but all I can say is that--

00:12:21   - Because you won't?

00:12:21   - Yeah, I will eventually if you gave me many months and weeks,

00:12:25   but the point is everyone goes through this, they're weirded out by them,

00:12:27   it doesn't seem to make any sense, you eventually learn how they work,

00:12:29   you eventually get used to them, your brain does eventually fit around them,

00:12:32   and then you realize there are use cases where they do make sense.

00:12:36   You don't need to travel that path, there's nothing dragging you down it,

00:12:38   but I'm confident that you would travel that path if you had occasion to use them

00:12:43   in one of the contexts where they are very nice.

00:12:45   - Fair enough, but regardless, my use case for this was very, very simple.

00:12:51   I wouldn't have been saving a lot of code at all if I actually went to this,

00:12:57   and so it wasn't worth learning a whole new thing just to possibly save 10 lines of code.

00:13:04   So I went with the old way and my ready state change handler with state four,

00:13:09   and it was fine, it was totally fine, no big deal.

00:13:12   - It's funny to me because I had forgotten that conversation that we had,

00:13:15   and just today I wrote my own super streamlined promise class for Swift

00:13:22   because I didn't want to use any of the very good, but ultimately kind of bloated,

00:13:27   promises libraries that are available right now.

00:13:29   And so I wrote one that's super small, like very Marco style.

00:13:32   So on the one side, I should get a thumbs up from you for doing something like,

00:13:35   oh, screw it, I'll just roll my own, it'll be fine, I don't need that much from it,

00:13:37   but a thumbs down because I was writing my own promise library.

00:13:41   - Yeah, that's not gonna, you're gonna give a thumbs down on that one.

00:13:43   Casey has gone a little bit, that path that I've described to you, Marco,

00:13:47   Casey has continued onward, perhaps even advisedly further into the woods,

00:13:51   where now everywhere he is, he needs to have,

00:13:54   he needs to not only have those features available,

00:13:57   but he's not satisfied with the libraries that offer them,

00:13:59   or the built-ins that offer them, the parts of standard library,

00:14:01   I'm not gonna write my own promise library.

00:14:03   And that's, you've gone too far for me now, Casey.

00:14:05   - I'm sorry.

00:14:06   - I can't follow you into I'm going to write my own promise library for Swift.

00:14:10   Just async await will come eventually, just hang in there.

00:14:12   - Stop.

00:14:13   It was seriously like 150 or 200 lines, it was not that much.

00:14:16   - I know, but I'm just, okay, all right.

00:14:18   - In any case, so we have this fancy shiny new CMS,

00:14:21   and I'm very excited about it, and Marco, I'm very happy that you spent the time

00:14:25   putting this together, so I didn't have to, and John didn't have to.

00:14:27   And really, ultimately, for the listeners' perspective,

00:14:31   there's not, I mean, it's visually different, but functionally,

00:14:34   it's not really that different outside of the live page.

00:14:36   But we are excited about it, and I wanted to publicly thank you, Marco,

00:14:40   for putting in all that work, because whether or not you enjoyed it,

00:14:43   it was still a lot of work, and I'm very thankful for that.

00:14:46   - Yeah, one thing I think, I mean, again, no one ever goes to the website,

00:14:48   but anyway, one thing people can appreciate if they happen to go to it,

00:14:52   you might notice that the site loads very fast.

00:14:54   And part of that is, you know, the lack of JavaScript and so forth,

00:14:57   but part of that is Marco's fairly obsessive need to do the fastest thing possible,

00:15:05   which is not often the quote-unquote best practice for web design,

00:15:08   unless your goal is to make the page fast and responsive.

00:15:11   So if you view source, you're like, all the CSS is inlined?

00:15:15   Why is he doing that? Why?

00:15:17   'Cause it's faster.

00:15:18   And guess what? It is faster.

00:15:19   The site loads really fast.

00:15:21   If you go to one of those, like, test this site to see how fast it is,

00:15:24   how could you make this site faster, they have, like, no advice.

00:15:27   'Cause they're like, yep, you pretty much did it all.

00:15:30   Again, this is a simple website. It's not a big deal.

00:15:32   I just, you know, it's, when doing projects like this,

00:15:34   I find it amusing to set a goal for yourself that really doesn't have any particular,

00:15:39   you know, you don't need to do this, but it's a fun thing to do.

00:15:42   I don't know if this is what Marco did, but I appreciated that about the site,

00:15:45   that there is, you know, that it is way higher performance than it needs to be for any reason.

00:15:49   - It's, yeah, for me, I mean, whenever I do something new like this,

00:15:53   I try to make some kind of political statement.

00:15:55   (laughs)

00:15:57   - With you?

00:15:58   - Yeah, with, like, the way that I, you know, make certain decisions,

00:16:01   the way I build things.

00:16:02   And with this, you know, one of my statements, as John said, was, like, everything's inlined.

00:16:06   It isn't that way in the source tree.

00:16:07   In the source tree, it's all neatly separated into files, different roles.

00:16:10   But upon render, I just read those files in and inline them all because it's faster.

00:16:14   And it keeps things simpler.

00:16:16   The images are all SVG files, and they're really tiny.

00:16:20   I was tempted to even inline those.

00:16:22   You can do that.

00:16:23   I haven't yet.

00:16:24   You know, don't tempt me.

00:16:26   I might do that next.

00:16:28   And there's very few images.

00:16:29   Mostly just, like, you know, podcast icons for subscriptions.

00:16:33   There's a couple little CSS tricks, but not, like, super, you know, crazy stuff.

00:16:38   It's fairly minimal.

00:16:39   And there's also no custom font.

00:16:41   There's no web font.

00:16:42   This is just using, wherever possible, it's using the system font.

00:16:45   So it's using San Francisco on Mac.

00:16:47   Yeah, so it's, like, very just fast, simple, bare bones.

00:16:50   The built-in audio player is not a custom audio player.

00:16:53   It's just whatever the browser provides for the audio tag by default with controls on.

00:16:58   That's it.

00:16:59   And it's a little bit less nice than a custom player.

00:17:01   And maybe in the future, I'll make a custom player for it.

00:17:03   But it doesn't seem that necessary, so I'm probably not going to do it.

00:17:06   And yeah, simple.

00:17:08   Just keeping everything as, like, simple, fast, bare bones as possible.

00:17:12   And it is running on my PHP framework, my, like, custom framework that runs Overcast as well.

00:17:18   It is running on that on the back end.

00:17:20   It not for a ton of reasons, except that it just makes it faster for me to build.

00:17:24   And I know how it works.

00:17:26   I know how it performs.

00:17:26   And it's all running on a $40 a month Linode box with a couple other sites that are going

00:17:33   to be on it as well, including, like, my own markers.org is going to be moved there at some

00:17:37   point.

00:17:37   And the very high traffic neutral.fm is also there, as I mentioned earlier.

00:17:41   Leave it to us to get off into the weeds of implementation of the site.

00:17:43   The point is, buy mugs and t-shirts.

00:17:45   It's a tech show.

00:17:47   Unless you're saving your money for your membership, and which you don't.

00:17:49   But anyway, I'll just say, the final note is my contribution to this website was to

00:17:55   add a little bit of modern web dev pee to Marco's pool by using Flexbox on the store

00:18:01   page.

00:18:01   You're welcome.

00:18:02   Oh, that's how you did that.

00:18:03   I haven't actually looked at your code for that yet.

00:18:05   It's modern stuff.

00:18:06   Don't look, Marco.

00:18:06   We'll burn you.

00:18:07   I know.

00:18:08   Seriously.

00:18:08   Stay back.

00:18:09   Stay back.

00:18:09   It looks very nice.

00:18:10   I don't have any tables except for, like, the actual list of episodes in the editing

00:18:14   side, but it's fine.

00:18:15   I do have a couple of floats here and there.

00:18:18   Oh, my word.

00:18:19   Sorry.

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00:20:33   Moving on, let's actually get the show properly started with some follow-up.

00:20:37   Jon, a lot of people were very interested in your MiniDV import and more technical details

00:20:43   as to how you did that and what you did.

00:20:45   Can you take us on a little bit of a journey through how you completed all that?

00:20:49   Jon Streeter Yeah, many more people than I thought, apparently,

00:20:51   also have shoeboxes full of MiniDV tapes and wanted to know more detail about how I did

00:20:56   it.

00:20:56   I didn't include most of the details because I thought it was boring, but I guess people

00:20:59   want to know enough information that they feel like they can do it themselves.

00:21:02   So first question is how did you import the movies?

00:21:06   So I still have my original camcorder that I took all the movies on, and that's how you

00:21:12   traditionally import it.

00:21:13   You connect the camera to your computer, and applications on the computer can actually

00:21:17   control the camera and make it rewind and fast-forward and play.

00:21:20   And you play it, and then the computer records it.

00:21:22   That's exactly what I did.

00:21:23   The application I used to do that was iMovie.

00:21:25   I was as surprised as anyone.

00:21:27   The modern, most recent version of iMovie, when you plug in a camcorder and go to import,

00:21:33   a UI that I didn't even know existed still exists with the fast-forward, rewind, play,

00:21:37   record.

00:21:37   All those controls are still there, and you can import.

00:21:39   People want to know what settings I imported at.

00:21:41   I didn't change anything.

00:21:44   I plugged in my camcorder.

00:21:45   I selected import.

00:21:46   I rewound, and then I clicked whatever the import button is, and that's it.

00:21:50   Whatever it's doing by default, that's what I did, and it seemed fine.

00:21:54   After that, things as you might expect go a little off the rails.

00:21:57   Oh, people also wanted to know how did you connect your camcorder to your crazy Mac Pro.

00:22:01   I managed to do it in three dongles.

00:22:03   It's like I can name that tune in three notes.

00:22:05   Four dongles would be more traditional, but I managed to find...

00:22:09   My one dongle that I managed to find is the one I connected directly to the camcorder.

00:22:11   The camcorder's got one of those little Firewire 400 ports on it, like the ones that look like

00:22:16   a rectangle with a notch taken out of the long side.

00:22:18   Firewire 400-800 is the first dongle that's connected to the camcorder.

00:22:26   Then I go with the second dongle that's Firewire 800 to Thunderbolt 2, and the Thunderbolt

00:22:31   2 is the one that looks like Mini DisplayPort, but it's Thunderbolt 2.

00:22:34   And then the third dongle is Thunderbolt 2 to Thunderbolt 3.

00:22:37   And believe it or not, this actually works.

00:22:39   Somehow, someway, you go from Firewire 400 to Thunderbolt 3, and you plug it into your

00:22:45   computer, and your computer's like, "Sure, yeah, whatever, fine.

00:22:47   That works."

00:22:48   After I do the iMovie import, what I end up with is...

00:22:52   I made a new iMovie library.

00:22:53   I end up with a bunch of files in an iMovie library.

00:22:55   But I do all the imports, takes forever.

00:22:57   Then just quit iMovie, just done.

00:23:00   I'm no longer gonna touch iMovie.

00:23:01   Now I have this iMovie library, and on disk it's like a package file that's actually a

00:23:05   directory.

00:23:05   You go into the directory, you'll find a bunch of folders.

00:23:08   In there, you'll eventually find the actual digital video files.

00:23:12   I think they're .dv files, but honestly, I don't remember anymore.

00:23:14   But anyway, you'll see them.

00:23:15   They're the ones that are a couple hundred megabytes or gigabytes or whatever.

00:23:18   One for each clip, because when you import an iMovie, it will make separate files for

00:23:23   each clip.

00:23:23   A clip is like you hit record, and then you hit stop, then you hit record, and you hit

00:23:26   stop.

00:23:26   iMovie finds those cuts, so you end up with many, many files per tape, depending on how

00:23:31   many times you stopped recording and started recording again.

00:23:34   What I did with those is I encoded those as H.265, and I wanted to use Handbrake to do

00:23:41   it, like the GUI Mac thing or whatever.

00:23:43   But I couldn't figure out a way in Handbrake to like...

00:23:46   You know, I made a set of settings in Handbrake.

00:23:48   You can make a save preset, and I picked what I wanted, and all the different settings will

00:23:51   go over in a moment.

00:23:52   And I'm like, "Great, I have all these settings.

00:23:54   Now I ought to be able to select all on all those files and just drag them in here and

00:23:57   say, 'Just encode all these like this.'"

00:23:59   If there's a way to do that in Handbrake, I couldn't figure it out.

00:24:02   But Handbrake has a command line tool, and I'm like, "All right, well, that suits me

00:24:05   just fine."

00:24:06   And handily, the command line tool, creatively named Handbrake CLI, one of the arguments

00:24:13   you can give it is, "Tell me the name of the preset that you made in the GUI."

00:24:19   The GUI preset thing saved out to a JSON file, and you can just point to that JSON file and

00:24:23   say, "Look at this JSON file and use the settings that I called minidvimport or whatever."

00:24:28   And so the command line arguments are not horrendous, as they surely would be if I had

00:24:33   used Casey's favorite FFmpeg.

00:24:34   It's just like, "Handbrake CLI, settings file this, use the setting iMovie import, giant

00:24:42   list of files."

00:24:42   Of course, I didn't do it from the command line.

00:24:45   What I did instead was wrote a script to do it, because, again, I'm just like, "Margot

00:24:48   is writing the new site in PHP.

00:24:50   I'm writing the script in Perl, just because it's the tool I know best and I don't have

00:24:53   to bother thinking about it."

00:24:54   So I wrote a Perl script, and I tried to do what I thought would be useful.

00:24:59   It turned out to be totally not useful, which is, "All right, write a Perl script, find

00:25:02   all the files, run Handbrake CLI on them with the proper arguments, all that other stuff,

00:25:07   do proper error checking," which is a little pet peeve of mine, "and then also set the

00:25:16   file dates, because when iMovie imports them, it imports them with clip file names that

00:25:22   are based on the date range of the clip or whatever.

00:25:24   So I can pull from the file names and then set the files on disk to be those dates as

00:25:27   well."

00:25:28   So what I end up with is a bunch of video files that are compressed that all have the

00:25:33   right dates.

00:25:34   They're from 2002 or whatever, whenever all these videos were taken.

00:25:39   >> Well, wait, so how does the computer know when they were taken?

00:25:42   That metadata was readable by the computer on that MiniDV tape?

00:25:46   >> Yeah, it's got to be in the tape, because I think you can display the date or whatever.

00:25:50   The MiniDV tape has that information, and when iMovie made the clips, it put in the

00:25:54   file names.

00:25:55   I didn't ask it to do this.

00:25:56   It's just what it did.

00:25:57   It put in the file names.

00:25:58   You'll see in a second this is all pointless, but it did this, and so I just parsed the

00:26:03   dates out of the file names and set the dates in the file.

00:26:05   The settings I used, I used H.265.

00:26:08   I used the video toolbox setting in Handbrake, which is the one that uses the fast H.265

00:26:13   thing that's in Intel CPUs.

00:26:15   I don't think it uses GPU.

00:26:16   I think it just uses the CPU thing.

00:26:18   I think it's also lower quality than the fancy software one, but I didn't care.

00:26:21   I just wanted to do the one that was fast because I had a lot of video to go through.

00:26:24   I think I did like 6,000 kilobits per second average.

00:26:28   I did AAC encoding of the audio, probably at too high a bit rate because I think it's

00:26:33   like 96 kilobits off the MiniDV, and I think I actually encoded it higher than that, but

00:26:37   whatever.

00:26:37   It's not a big deal.

00:26:38   And yeah, I just had it run all those imports.

00:26:43   I wrote a second script to confirm that I got them all just because they're spread

00:26:48   all over the place, and there's a lot of files, and I made my own bespoke diffing

00:26:52   script to make sure everything's been converted.

00:26:54   I chose the MP4 container format just because I hope that would sort of stand the test of

00:26:59   time as an international standard yada yada, right?

00:27:02   So H.265 is the algorithm, because you can play MP2's MPEG2 video today, right?

00:27:08   So I'm hoping an MP4 container, anyway, I can just always change the container at some

00:27:11   point in the future.

00:27:12   The final bit was, okay, I've got all these files now.

00:27:16   The total file size was only like 50 gigs, which is way smaller than the file size I

00:27:21   imported them.

00:27:22   And then my final step was I'm going to drag them into my Apple Photos library, which is

00:27:27   what I always wanted to do with them.

00:27:28   And being the wise person that I am, I didn't just drag them all in there.

00:27:33   I dragged one first, and I dragged it in.

00:27:35   It's like, this movie is from 2020.

00:27:37   I'm like, no, it's not.

00:27:39   Why do you think it's from 2020?

00:27:41   The dates and the file name, the creation and modification date of the file on disk

00:27:46   are, you know, a decade ago.

00:27:48   Like, this is not a thing from 2020, Apple Photos.

00:27:52   Why can't I convince you that this is an old file?

00:27:54   Is it in the EXIF data?

00:27:55   Yes, it's in the EXIF data.

00:27:57   I got it.

00:27:59   Well, you look at the show notes.

00:28:00   No, I didn't.

00:28:00   You never looked at the show notes.

00:28:02   Of course you didn't look at the show notes.

00:28:04   There's metadata inside the file.

00:28:07   There's track-specific metadata on each track that determines the dates.

00:28:11   And for whatever reason, because Handbrake made these when Handbrake wrote out the file,

00:28:15   it's like, I'm making this movie, and it's brand new as of 2020.

00:28:17   And so I had to use one final tool, the EXIF tool, to modify all of the relevant dates

00:28:25   on each individual media track.

00:28:27   Which was tricky, because now I'm making, like, the way EXIF tool, at least the way

00:28:31   I was running it, it doesn't modify them in place, it makes a second copy.

00:28:33   So now I got to make sure I do this for all the things, and it works, and I have all the

00:28:36   second copies, and distinguish them from the first, and rename everything, and yada, yada,

00:28:40   yada, purl, purl, purl.

00:28:41   Eventually, I ended up with, you know, several dozen files.

00:28:47   Actually, it was like 20 tapes worth of files.

00:28:51   Each tape was like 20, I don't know, they varied in how many.

00:28:56   Anyway, a lot of files, eventually I got it to work, threw them into Apple Photos, and

00:28:59   you know, after doing one test one and seeing that it correctly filed it, you know, 10,

00:29:03   12 years ago, I threw them all in.

00:29:05   So that's how it works.

00:29:06   We'll put the links in the show notes to Handbrake CLI and EXIF tool, iMovie you can

00:29:12   get for free from the App Store, I think, and the dongles.

00:29:15   I had most of these.

00:29:18   The Thunderbolt 2 to 3 was an Apple one, the Firewire 800 to Thunderbolt 2 was also an

00:29:23   Apple one, the 400 to 800, I don't even remember where I got it.

00:29:27   It didn't have it in the house, I had to actually buy it, I think I just searched Amazon

00:29:29   for it.

00:29:30   Well, I'm impressed.

00:29:32   That is a lot of work, but I'm sure that you have quite a bit of peace of mind knowing

00:29:37   that all that stuff is now safely in 34 different locations and three different cloud services.

00:29:42   Slowly bit-rodding, yeah.

00:29:43   It's great.

00:29:43   Slowly bit-rodding everywhere.

00:29:45   All right, would one of you like to tell me about other reasons why people might ask for

00:29:49   app promo codes?

00:29:50   I'll tell you because I brought it up in the last show, where it's like, "Oh, you get

00:29:53   these automated emails, if you have an app in the App Store and people ask for promo

00:29:57   codes, why are they asking, blah, blah, blah."

00:29:59   We didn't touch on what seems like the most obvious but also sort of the most cynical

00:30:03   and sad reason.

00:30:05   It's because they want to resell them.

00:30:07   They want to get a thing for you for free and they want to charge somebody money for

00:30:11   the thing they got for free.

00:30:12   And if you do that at scale and you send out thousands and thousands and thousands of automated

00:30:16   emails and some small percentage gives you a thing for free and then you sell all those

00:30:19   free things for a dollar, you just made a dollar profit on all of that.

00:30:23   So that could be a good business.

00:30:24   And then the final one, which is a similar thing, is to populate pirate app stores.

00:30:29   So if you can get a legitimate app and somehow crack it or strip it or whatever, then you

00:30:34   can put it up on a store and resell that same copy over and over again for people who have

00:30:38   jailbroken phones.

00:30:39   I'm not quite sure how that works, but I'm just speculating that it's basically just

00:30:43   a way to get a thing for free and either sell it once or sell it multiple times to make

00:30:47   money.

00:30:48   So that's a bummer.

00:30:49   I was very surprised that, first of all, that we didn't think about this.

00:30:55   Of course, it's some kind of stupid arbitrage scam.

00:30:59   Again, we don't think this way because we're not scammers.

00:31:03   Well, I thought the people who had the fake app store apps, I mean, this is being silly,

00:31:10   I was like, "Well, surely they have...

00:31:11   Why would they be begging for copies of the software they're going to sell on their

00:31:16   illegal site?

00:31:17   Surely they have other ways to get them."

00:31:18   I guess someone's got to get it first, but the apps they're going to sell, it's like

00:31:23   trying to find an illegal copy of Photoshop in the '90s.

00:31:26   You don't go asking Adobe for it.

00:31:27   You just go find it online and download it.

00:31:28   But I guess with the app store scale, that becomes more difficult and maybe this mass

00:31:33   emailing works.

00:31:34   I didn't think that this was the source.

00:31:36   The source was mass emails to developers.

00:31:39   I always just thought it was like, "Oh, they find a copy online."

00:31:41   Yeah.

00:31:41   And I was more surprised about the reselling promo codes for less than their list price

00:31:47   as a thing.

00:31:48   Like that is kind of an ingenious, horrible scam.

00:31:51   I would never have thought to do that.

00:31:54   And it is totally unethical.

00:31:57   But it is kind of like, that makes a lot more sense why you get a bulk email, why you never

00:32:03   hear from the people again.

00:32:04   It's just like, "Just give me codes, give me codes, give me codes."

00:32:07   And then if one person says yes, great, then go sell that code for half of what that app

00:32:11   sells for in the store, and eventually somebody might buy it.

00:32:14   And it costs you nothing.

00:32:16   So even if no one ever buys your code, you're still fine.

00:32:19   You need to store eight characters in a database somewhere.

00:32:22   That's your only cost.

00:32:23   And you can automate it.

00:32:25   This can just run in the background while you're sitting on the beach.

00:32:27   There's nothing.

00:32:28   It's zero touch.

00:32:29   It just runs.

00:32:30   It sends the emails.

00:32:31   When it gets the response, it looks for a promo code.

00:32:33   It puts it into a database.

00:32:34   It shows up on a store.

00:32:35   Like it all just runs by itself.

00:32:37   Again, like I said last week, whenever you have some kind of large ecosystem like this

00:32:43   where any kind of scam or grift is even possible, even if it doesn't seem like it would make

00:32:48   that much money, or even if it seemed like it would be a lot of work to get into, there

00:32:53   are people out there for whom it's worth it.

00:32:56   And someone out there will do it.

00:32:58   If there is a scam to be had, people will do it.

00:33:02   And that's why whenever you think about app store policy or Apple's physical policies

00:33:09   about their devices, things like repair policy, warranty repairs, how they deal with serial

00:33:14   numbers and locked devices, stuff like that, so much of this.

00:33:18   You've got to think from the angle of what would scammers do with this given a lot of

00:33:23   time and no ethics?

00:33:26   And possibly, and a lot of scammers live in places where the cost of living and the expenses

00:33:33   of daily life are much lower than ours.

00:33:35   And so it might be worth it for them to run a scam that might not be worth it for us.

00:33:41   Because if it isn't making huge amounts of money, but it's making small amounts of

00:33:44   money, that's worth it to somebody.

00:33:47   And so anything Apple does, they're at such a large scale.

00:33:50   Their customer base is at such a large scale.

00:33:52   And there's so much potential money to be made in unethical or illegal ways, people

00:33:58   will do it.

00:33:59   And you kind of have to give them the benefit of the doubt when they make some kind of weird

00:34:04   or inconvenient change to one of their policies around something like this.

00:34:08   A lot of times it's like, oh, actually, yeah, people were scamming them, or us as developers.

00:34:13   People were scamming for millions of dollars over time.

00:34:15   And this change was necessary to reduce that or something like that.

00:34:18   As a software person, there is a kind of a beauty to this type of scam.

00:34:23   Because we always hear about, oh, someone goes and buys a dozen iPhones and sells them

00:34:26   when they're in high demand.

00:34:27   And in some respects, people are out there waiting in lines, and there's physical goods.

00:34:34   And it's real hard work, and it's hard to make money.

00:34:37   But this is one of those beauty--

00:34:38   They pay other people to wait in lines for the change.

00:34:40   You know what I mean?

00:34:41   Yes, yes.

00:34:41   But eventually there's labor involved.

00:34:43   Whereas this one is like an individual person without much programming knowledge.

00:34:48   Can write this little machine and just run it indefinitely.

00:34:52   And because the scale of the App Store is so huge, the success rate, the response rate

00:34:58   of people giving free codes can be very tiny.

00:35:00   I can imagine making a large amount of money.

00:35:02   Despite the fact that it's, A, probably illegal and against Apple's terms of service or whatever,

00:35:06   and B, certainly unethical, there is a certain beauty to it.

00:35:10   And I can imagine that person sitting on the beach and thinking, people are in line trying

00:35:14   to get iPhones.

00:35:14   They have to carry around these physical goods.

00:35:16   And they're just slowly, ambiently getting this trickle of income that keeps the pina

00:35:24   coladas coming.

00:35:24   I'm pretty sure that's not-- the person who's doing this is not probably sipping

00:35:30   pina coladas on the beach.

00:35:31   But there is a certain beauty to these kind of pure software scams.

00:35:36   You think it's maybe like those Bud Light, Lime-arita things?

00:35:40   What are those?

00:35:41   Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:35:43   I mean, this is the Superman rounding error banking scam for the modern age.

00:35:50   You don't know that.

00:35:51   Superman 3.

00:35:52   Is that the thing that's referenced in Office Space?

00:35:54   Yep, yep, yep.

00:35:55   Exactly.

00:35:55   Yeah, I can get you one reference away.

00:35:57   Yeah, Office Space referenced the thing.

00:35:59   Yeah.

00:35:59   I can't tell you what the Superman was, because I didn't see that.

00:36:04   But I saw Office Space a lot.

00:36:05   I had Richard Pryor, and I had a scene where a bunch of wires wrap around people, and it

00:36:08   scared me when I was little.

00:36:09   All right.

00:36:11   I'm assuming that it was Marco that put in this Destiny entry in the show notes.

00:36:15   So Marco, why don't you tell me about Destiny and cursors?

00:36:17   It turns out they have cursors in Destiny, but they don't call them that.

00:36:21   Go ahead.

00:36:23   Try to fake it.

00:36:24   What's your next line in the joke?

00:36:25   I can't even make one up.

00:36:27   You can't.

00:36:28   Just cat-dev you random.

00:36:30   They call it that.

00:36:31   All right.

00:36:34   So last episode, I think, we were talking about Craig Federighi's interview with Federigo

00:36:41   Viticci, where they talked about the cursor design on iPad OS.

00:36:46   And some of the things they talked about was comparing to certain aspects of the aim assist

00:36:51   feature, not amethyst, but aim assist feature in Destiny.

00:36:55   It turns out that what I should have been talking about, silly me, was also the fact

00:37:02   that Destiny itself has a cursor in it.

00:37:04   And many reasons the strangeness didn't occur to me.

00:37:09   I was talking about inside the game, there's an aiming reticle that you use to aim at and

00:37:13   shoot people, and that's the main gameplay.

00:37:14   But it has a menu system, too, and it has a cursor, and it's controlled by thumb sticks.

00:37:18   And guess what?

00:37:19   That cursor looks like a ghost finger.

00:37:21   It is and has been since 2014 a circular blob that's on the screen.

00:37:25   You use it to select menus and buttons and do all sorts of stuff like that.

00:37:28   Now, the problem space is very different.

00:37:30   The reason I was comparing the iPad OS one with the shooting mechanics is because it's

00:37:35   slightly more analogous than this, because on iPad OS, you're not controlling the cursor

00:37:40   with a tiny joystick.

00:37:41   You have a touchpad, which is a very different interface, or a mouse.

00:37:45   But a joystick is a very different problem set.

00:37:47   So I fell into a pretty deep rabbit hole of game developer conference videos, GDC videos

00:37:55   on YouTube.

00:37:56   There was a couple ones that I've already seen about Destiny, and there was a couple

00:38:00   ones that I reviewed for the thing we talked about last week.

00:38:03   And then there's this one, it's called Destiny's Tenacious Design and Interface.

00:38:07   Even if you've never used Destiny, it's a really interesting video to watch someone

00:38:12   explain how they tackled the design problem of letting people use a cursor with a game

00:38:18   controller.

00:38:19   If you've ever had a game that tried to do this, you know how badly it can go, because

00:38:23   a tiny thumb stick with like, you know, three quarters of an inch of travel is not the ideal

00:38:29   way to control a cursor on a screen.

00:38:31   So how do you do that?

00:38:32   How do you even make that interface so people don't want to tear their hair out?

00:38:36   Because people are going to be using it a lot in Destiny.

00:38:38   I think most Destiny players take it for granted as essentially the first decent interface

00:38:44   where you have a cursor on the screen.

00:38:45   Like most games don't even have a cursor.

00:38:47   They just say, "Oh, you use a D-pad.

00:38:48   Up, down, down, right, right, left, left."

00:38:50   But that gets tedious as well.

00:38:51   But at least it works.

00:38:52   People know how that works, like in an RPG, Final Fantasy, or whatever.

00:38:55   You got a menu system, you just get used to it.

00:38:57   You just, you know, it's fast, it's responsive, it's a game console.

00:39:00   But at a certain point when your interface becomes very expansive, that itself becomes

00:39:04   way too tedious.

00:39:05   You want to have essentially a mouse cursor.

00:39:07   How do you do that on a game console?

00:39:10   And in the case of the original Destiny, they were also, this boggled my mind because I

00:39:14   totally forgotten about it, but the original Destiny also had to run on consoles that supported

00:39:19   4x3 televisions, like non-HDTVs.

00:39:21   Like you could hook up a PlayStation 3 to a non-HDCRT and games had to work on it.

00:39:27   So if you've looked at a Destiny screenshot and you ever wondered why there's nothing

00:39:30   in the sort of the sides of the 16x9 box, it's because they had to keep everything so

00:39:34   that it would work on a 4x3 TV and they didn't want to lay out every screen twice.

00:39:38   Anyway, I put the link in the show notes.

00:39:40   Like I said, even if you don't even like games, don't even know what Destiny is, and in the

00:39:45   beginning of the video maybe it's a little bit boring, stay with it and watch to the

00:39:47   point where they start showing you how they approach this design.

00:39:51   You will see some things that are similar to iPadOS, but other things that are just

00:39:55   totally alien in terms of counter-scrolling the screen and finding ways to fit in localized

00:40:01   text in these boxes.

00:40:03   All the things that if you do UI design, some of them you recognize, but the unique aspects

00:40:07   of it that only apply to games are really interesting.

00:40:09   You will also see in some of the screenshots icons for our friends at the Icon Factory

00:40:14   and prototypes of the game.

00:40:16   Before there's any artwork, they just need a bunch of icons to put on screen to test

00:40:20   the interface.

00:40:21   There's a whole bunch of Icon Factory icons in there, which I thought was pretty neat.

00:40:25   I have a related slight tangent update.

00:40:29   So first of all, you conflate 4x3 TVs with standard def TVs, and as I mentioned before,

00:40:36   I owned a 4x3 1080i HDTV.

00:40:40   They did exist.

00:40:41   Are you sure about that?

00:40:42   Yes.

00:40:43   I know HD, I know high definition CRTs existed, but I thought they were 16x9.

00:40:47   No?

00:40:48   No, I mean maybe those also existed, but I had a 4x3, I think it was a Magnavox or something,

00:40:53   4x3 HDTV that was a CRT that had component input and supported 1080i.

00:40:59   You need to look up this device, because I need to see this.

00:41:03   Trust me, lots of these existed, well maybe not lots.

00:41:06   They existed for a short time, like when HDTVs were coming out, but people still wanted inexpensive

00:41:11   ones.

00:41:12   Chat Room says yes, and Chat Room is never wrong.

00:41:14   Wow, 4x3 HDTV.

00:41:15   So it just had, it was just letterboxed I guess?

00:41:17   Yeah, well you could choose, but yeah, that's usually how you would set it, because nothing

00:41:22   supported actual 4x3 HD content.

00:41:26   It was similar, you could letterbox it or you could crop off the ends, and I usually

00:41:30   just letterbox it.

00:41:31   It was very strange.

00:41:32   That's terrible.

00:41:33   I would never want that TV.

00:41:35   Like I would hold out for the 16x9 CRTs.

00:41:38   Well it wouldn't have had the problem having now with my TV.

00:41:42   Your big fancy TV?

00:41:43   Yep, my big fancy LG OLED, so I still have my hot blue pixel near the top edge.

00:41:50   Hot pixel, hot pixel.

00:41:51   Yeah, I have sometimes stopped noticing it, but not regularly stopped noticing it.

00:41:58   And the other day, Tiff was playing Animal Crossing and going across a light beach area.

00:42:04   Oh no.

00:42:06   And along the bottom quarter of the screen, we saw a very familiar outline of about 10

00:42:16   hearts, about 10 meat-shaped logs, and then about 8 or 10 squares that form some kind

00:42:25   of quick action bar.

00:42:26   I told you never to look.

00:42:28   I didn't look for it, but this was clear as day.

00:42:31   Before I thought Zelda would burn in, but apparently you just didn't play enough hours

00:42:34   of Zelda, but Minecraft?

00:42:36   You've played enough hours of Minecraft.

00:42:37   Yeah, and I don't play on the TV, but Tiff does.

00:42:40   It's her fault now.

00:42:42   So we play either on the Dubai Friday server, which is Java, in which case we're all on

00:42:46   PCs, Macs or whatever, or we play in our family game, which is just like a private thing that

00:42:51   we have just for our family, and that's the Bedrock edition.

00:42:55   And for that, Tiff plays on the Switch.

00:42:57   We played so much of that recently that now there is the Minecraft HUD burned in to the

00:43:02   bottom of our TV.

00:43:03   Now fortunately, it is not burned in enough that we notice it most of the time.

00:43:07   It was only when Tiff was walking across the certain light to medium shade flat colored

00:43:14   beach area that we saw it very clearly there, but during watching regular TV content where

00:43:20   stuff is actually moving all the time, we don't really notice it yet, but I'm hoping

00:43:23   it doesn't get any worse than that.

00:43:26   Well you know the solution.

00:43:27   The solution is do not play Minecraft on that TV anymore and then wait a year.

00:43:31   Is that, yeah, I was curious, is it permanent?

00:43:34   I mean, I know my hot pixel is permanent and therefore this TV is dead to me, even though

00:43:39   it's, you know.

00:43:40   I don't know if the hot pixel is permanent.

00:43:41   Sometimes those things come back to life too, weirdly.

00:43:43   But yeah, I don't have experience with OLEDs.

00:43:47   My only experience is with the plasma and with the plasma, no, it wasn't permanent,

00:43:50   but it did take a full calendar year for me to stop being able to see my Destiny HUD.

00:43:55   As soon as I saw that combined with my dead pixel, I said, "You know what?

00:43:59   I wish I had just kept my plasma."

00:44:01   Well, the plasmas have burned into it, you'd have the plasma of Minecraft burn in too.

00:44:07   Does it burn at the same rate?

00:44:09   I don't know.

00:44:10   I mean, plasma, I still, I know OLED is a lot more elegant in a lot of ways.

00:44:16   It's certainly a lot more efficient and it's thinner and the bezels are thinner and it

00:44:20   has 4K, which plasma, as far as I know, never went 4K.

00:44:23   Has better color reproduction, has more pixels.

00:44:27   Plasma's are way better at motion and they are significantly better in a lot of these

00:44:31   areas of retention and dead pixels and everything, in my experience.

00:44:35   Maybe I just got lucky, I don't know.

00:44:36   I don't know if they're better.

00:44:38   I don't think they're worse than OLEDs.

00:44:40   Some OLEDs may be worse than others, but plasma was the previous champion of image retention

00:44:45   and OLED is just kind of like, I feel like OLED is tying it.

00:44:48   Well, anyway, I am, I so far, I did what everyone else does a couple of years ago and I wanted

00:44:55   to buy a 4K OLED TV and I went to the review sites and I bought the one that everyone buys,

00:44:59   the LG C whatever.

00:45:01   You got the right one.

00:45:02   I have the C7, I think, yeah.

00:45:04   I got the right TV.

00:45:05   I did all the research.

00:45:06   A lot of people have these TVs.

00:45:08   I have friends who have these TVs.

00:45:10   I am not very happy with it.

00:45:11   I got to say, after three years or almost three years of having it, to have two significant

00:45:17   image related problems, not thrilled with that purchase right now, especially because

00:45:21   it costs like $2,200 or something.

00:45:23   Like it wasn't a cheap TV.

00:45:25   So you got the extended warranty.

00:45:27   Honestly, I think for whatever I buy next, if this thing ever dies and actually forces

00:45:32   me to buy something new, I would probably do one of those stupid like best buy warranties.

00:45:37   That's what I did with my plasma.

00:45:38   I bought the extended warranty despite how ridiculous it was because I knew plasmas have

00:45:42   problems and I always wanted the option to be like, oh, this thing goes terribly wrong.

00:45:46   The thing that goes wrong with plasmas a lot is, aside from the image retention, is because

00:45:49   they use so much power.

00:45:50   They have some sort of analog circuit that actually vibrates in use and that eventually

00:45:56   it can crack its housing and make a terrible noise just from the vibration of the high

00:46:02   power.

00:46:03   You can always hear a plasma.

00:46:04   If you put a full white screen on a plasma and you have young enough ears, you can hear

00:46:06   it going like that kind of electrical buzzing noise.

00:46:09   But if that thing cracks, it becomes incredibly loud.

00:46:12   And you don't want that to happen like one year after your warranty is out and the warranties

00:46:15   are very short.

00:46:16   So extended warranty for sure.

00:46:18   Kids don't use nearly as much power as these plasmas and don't have that buzzing problem,

00:46:23   but things can go wrong with any kind of screen, especially a 4K screen.

00:46:27   Normally those extended warranties on most things are total ripoffs and I would never

00:46:31   recommend buying them on pretty much anything.

00:46:33   But I do admit I'm jealous when, if I mention something about this TV, you always hear from

00:46:39   people who are like, "Yeah, well, you know, it happened to me once and I had the genius

00:46:43   squad come over and they just took it right out and swapped it with a new one.

00:46:46   No questions asked because I had one dead Pixel blue."

00:46:48   And I'm like, "Oh, God."

00:46:50   But you know your previous reasoning about why you don't do that still holds.

00:46:53   The idea is, okay, every three years you buy a new $2,000 TV and you don't have this problem

00:46:56   or you buy an extended warranty, which one costs more money in the long run?

00:46:59   I guess that's true, but yeah, because a warranty on something that's going to be, what, like

00:47:03   three or four hundred bucks?

00:47:04   Yeah, that was multi hundred dollars for my plasma, although I used my plasma for like

00:47:08   ten years.

00:47:09   Yeah, right.

00:47:10   I mean, I've only ever owned three TVs in my adult life.

00:47:12   The first one was the HD CRT.

00:47:15   The second one was my 42-inch plasma, and this is the third.

00:47:18   Yeah, if you had played Minecraft on this plasma, though, you would have burned in the

00:47:21   Minecraft bar at the bottom of the plasma.

00:47:23   It's just a matter of like, when did your Minecraft time of life begin?

00:47:26   So basically, it's on Adam.

00:47:28   Adam came of age.

00:47:29   He came of Minecraft age, and that sentenced your television to death, essentially.

00:47:34   Wow.

00:47:35   Because the blue Pixel, I feel like, yeah, it's annoying, but you probably could have

00:47:37   lived with it, but the burn-in is more of an issue.

00:47:41   Like it will show up any time there's kind of gray in that area.

00:47:44   You'll see it.

00:47:45   Oh, jeez.

00:47:46   Oh, goodness.

00:47:47   All right, we'll move on, and Sir Kathy wrote in to point out something that I missed, but

00:47:53   we were talking about multi-user iPads in the last couple of episodes, and in iOS 13.4,

00:47:59   apparently shared iPad for business was a thing, or became a thing.

00:48:03   This is apparently a business version of the Apple Classroom shared iPad thing.

00:48:08   So shared iPad for business is from 9to5Mac.

00:48:11   Shared iPad for business enables businesses to share devices between multiple employees

00:48:15   while still providing a personalized experience.

00:48:17   Employees sign in with a managed Apple ID to begin loading their data.

00:48:20   The user then has their own mail accounts, their own files, iCloud photo library, app

00:48:23   data, and more.

00:48:24   The data for the employees stored in iCloud so employees can sign in from any shared iPad

00:48:27   that belongs to the organization.

00:48:29   I had no idea this was a thing.

00:48:31   I totally missed this, so I just thought I would call it out.

00:48:34   Yeah, I think that makes sense from, you know, just like schools have a use case for this,

00:48:38   so do businesses.

00:48:39   They want to have like a fleet of iPads and a bunch of employees, and you just sort of

00:48:42   check out an iPad and your stuff is there and then you put it away, you know, rather

00:48:46   than buying one iPad for every single employee.

00:48:49   You would think that this would mean, oh, this other use case means that Apple is even

00:48:52   more motivated to make the system better, but because this is essentially enterprise

00:48:56   software, there is a high tolerance for, let's say, inconvenient software experiences in

00:49:01   that market, so I'm not sure this actually changes the motivation one way or the other,

00:49:04   but it is interesting to know they're using it someplace other than education.

00:49:07   Do we have to do this last follow-up item?

00:49:09   I really don't want to do this last follow-up item.

00:49:11   We have to.

00:49:12   No, we don't have to, but I don't want to.

00:49:17   I'll help you, Casey.

00:49:18   You have nothing to be ashamed of, probably.

00:49:21   Probably.

00:49:22   All right, so John Enger, thank you, John, writes, "Hey, Casey, I'm 25 minutes into episode

00:49:28   377 and I'm enjoying your Raspberry Pi garage door opening adventures.

00:49:31   As a security professional, oh, God, as a security professional, though, I'm having

00:49:35   nervous twitches.

00:49:36   Are your Pi zeros hardened to use an encrypted connection between them?

00:49:39   When you connect these to the actual garage doors, will it be trivially easy for a man

00:49:41   with a laptop to break into your garage?

00:49:43   Irritating details like this are why I prefer HomeKit over the Alexa ecosystem.

00:49:46   For anything HomeCatch tree-related, extra costs be darned."

00:49:50   I am sure that the answers I'm about to give will be unsatisfactory to somebody, and that's

00:49:55   okay.

00:49:56   That's okay.

00:49:57   It's fine for me.

00:49:58   The Raspberry Pi has no incoming connection to the internet.

00:50:03   It is outgoing only.

00:50:05   Additionally, the only control for the garage door, well, I had intended to add control

00:50:11   to the garage door via HomeKit and HomeKit only.

00:50:14   I tried putting a relay on it, and for uninteresting reasons, that didn't work, which might be

00:50:18   user error, so I got to look at that again.

00:50:20   But I tried that earlier today and it didn't work.

00:50:22   But yeah, there's no mechanism other than HomeKit to control the garage door, and even

00:50:27   then, there's actually right now no control at all.

00:50:30   And yeah, there's no incoming connection to these Raspberry Pis, and they only talk locally

00:50:37   within the network, so I think it's fine, and it's fine enough for my use, but I'm sure

00:50:42   all of you are going to write in and tell me how I am inviting people to open my garage

00:50:46   door.

00:50:47   Are you using HTTPS?

00:50:51   Are all the network connections using some encrypted protocol?

00:50:54   No, but they're all internal to my own network.

00:51:00   Can we reconsider that?

00:51:01   First of all, I'm really not interested in having a debate about whether or not this

00:51:05   is hard enough.

00:51:06   I don't mean to be a jerk.

00:51:07   I just don't care.

00:51:09   But this is the type of thing where it's like, it probably helps a little bit, and it's usually

00:51:12   easy to do because it's not like you're writing these protocols if you just change the URL

00:51:15   from HTTP HTTPS and install a certificate of something, or use SSH.

00:51:20   It's usually not like something you have to program or do or worry about.

00:51:24   Very often you have an option.

00:51:25   Like our Synologies, for example, there are apps that Synology gives you for iOS, right?

00:51:29   And when you use one of them, it asks you to sign in to Synology and it has a checkbox

00:51:33   that says use HTTPS or not.

00:51:35   You just check the checkbox.

00:51:36   And that's what I do on the Synology because that is exposed to the internet from an incoming.

00:51:40   The internet can get to the Synology if you know where to go.

00:51:45   These pies, they're outbound connections to the internet but not inbound.

00:51:48   And the thing of it is that if something was able to hack into these Raspberry Pis, that

00:51:55   means that my entire network at that point has been compromised.

00:52:00   Because again, there is no port forwarding or anything like that available to these Raspberry

00:52:06   Pis to allow somebody from outside my network into them.

00:52:11   So if something has gotten in from outside, that means my entire network is compromised

00:52:14   and I have much bigger worries than these little $10 computers.

00:52:18   So I'm not upset at Jon for asking the question.

00:52:22   I know it was in good spirit.

00:52:23   I know he's not trying to be difficult.

00:52:25   But I don't feel like I'm putting out myself...

00:52:29   Well, first of all, there is no control via the Raspberry Pi, like I said.

00:52:32   I do want there to be, but there isn't any.

00:52:34   It's just a sensor and nothing else.

00:52:35   But even if there is control, there is no way to get into that Raspberry Pi from outside

00:52:41   my home.

00:52:42   There's not.

00:52:43   And so, short of something just catastrophically bad affecting Linux installations everywhere,

00:52:49   and I'm sure that you, the listener, can write in and tell me about, "Oh, this one crazy

00:52:53   hack that happened."

00:52:54   Like, okay, if you really want to get into my garage that bad, fine.

00:52:58   Fine.

00:52:59   - Since there's no inbound port acceptance on it, I think you're right that the attack

00:53:03   surface on this from the outside should be pretty much zero.

00:53:08   And yeah, if it's not, you have many other problems.

00:53:11   And your computers and other devices will have many other problems.

00:53:14   So that's good.

00:53:16   So a friend of mine asked me the other day, now that we're working from home a lot more,

00:53:21   what can we do, what should we be doing security-wise to just best practices for home network security?

00:53:28   And what I told him was basically like, A, make sure your Wi-Fi password is reasonable,

00:53:35   using whatever modern standards exist for Wi-Fi passwords and it's reasonably long and

00:53:38   not easily guessable.

00:53:40   That's like the best thing.

00:53:41   Just keep people off your network.

00:53:43   And beyond that, the one thing I said to him was, make sure you're not using any kind of

00:53:47   weird like cheap or no-name or unnecessary smart home products.

00:53:53   'Cause smart home products so often are attack vectors in people's networks when they're

00:53:58   running bad software or when they're made by no-name vendors who have no interest in

00:54:03   supporting them and have possibly no ability to write secure software in the first place

00:54:06   even.

00:54:08   If you're staying with big brand stuff and sticking within the well-known Amazon or home

00:54:12   kit ecosystems, you're pretty much good as long as you're not getting too crappy of devices

00:54:19   that have too crappy of software on them.

00:54:21   But smart home stuff is a significant vector, but that's because so many smart home devices

00:54:26   open up ports to the internet and run local services to the outside world.

00:54:30   So if you're not doing that from the pie, which you're not, then you're pretty good

00:54:34   there.

00:54:35   The other angle to consider here is the attack surface or the attack target of the inside

00:54:41   of your garage.

00:54:43   If somebody really wants to get into your garage, the ability to remotely open it isn't

00:54:47   particularly useful.

00:54:48   They probably want to be somewhere nearby so they can walk into your garage after they

00:54:52   open it and, I don't know, pick up your car and walk away with it somehow.

00:54:59   So that's problem number one.

00:55:00   Problem number two is if they are willing to like sit near your garage to break into

00:55:05   it and possibly like get on your Wi-Fi somehow or something, well they can also just like

00:55:10   sniff the over-the-air signals that your garage door opener sends it when you drive up to it.

00:55:15   And if it's not a pretty modern, secure garage door, they can probably just repeat

00:55:20   the code that's transmitted and reopen it whenever they want to.

00:55:24   There are like different standards of garage door opener over-the-air protocols and some

00:55:27   of them, especially the old ones, are really insecure.

00:55:30   They just like transmit a certain pattern once and that's it.

00:55:32   And you can just repeat that pattern over and over again and it'll just keep working

00:55:36   forever.

00:55:37   And then the more modern ones have some kind of like rotating code system or like a single

00:55:40   use kind of thing.

00:55:41   I don't have too much into it so forgive me if I'm getting some of this wrong.

00:55:44   But like if somebody wants to actually get into your garage that badly and they're

00:55:47   local, because why else would they want to get into your garage, there are so many other

00:55:51   ways to do it than hacking your smart garage door opener, which by the way doesn't open

00:55:57   your garage door.

00:55:58   It just tells you whether it is open or not.

00:56:01   So...

00:56:02   - Today, today.

00:56:03   I do want it to be able to but today that is correct.

00:56:05   - Right.

00:56:06   So the point is like this is a pretty small attack surface to begin with and then once

00:56:10   you look at well what's the actual target here, your Raspberry Pi is not the security

00:56:15   hole in this setup.

00:56:17   Your garage door opener is the security hole in this setup.

00:56:20   By the way, most garage doors, those garage door openers are not pulling thousands of

00:56:26   pounds of wood up.

00:56:28   They're counter weighted or they have counter springs on them.

00:56:31   You can lift them by hand if you have to.

00:56:34   So unless you're actually going there every night and turning the big metal locking thing

00:56:38   that sticks the bars out to lock it against the doors, which no one ever does, somebody

00:56:43   who wants to go into your garage door can probably just walk up to it and lift it up

00:56:46   with their hands.

00:56:48   So again, not a significant surface to worry about for attacks here.

00:56:52   - That's how my garage door locks with those metal things.

00:56:54   I do that every day.

00:56:55   - Because I don't have an opener.

00:56:56   - I was about to say, you don't have a garage door opener, do you?

00:56:59   - I think, I mean, the takeaway is I was saying if you're setting up something like this,

00:57:03   it is a good thing to think about, especially if you go whole hog into home automation,

00:57:07   because if you don't think about it at all, you could find yourself, especially if you're

00:57:09   tinkering in a situation where anyone sitting in a car outside your house has complete control

00:57:14   over all your appliances.

00:57:15   And although that's not particularly dangerous, it could be annoying.

00:57:18   And the second thing that occurred to me is kind of what Marco was getting at.

00:57:21   You could be in a smoke alarm like situation where I had installed many years ago, as described

00:57:26   on a Hypercritical episode, whose number I can't remember, installed a smoke detector

00:57:32   that had an IR interface.

00:57:34   Like if you have a really high ceiling in your house and the smoke detector goes off,

00:57:37   you have a little remote that you could point at the smoke detector and tell it to stop

00:57:41   beeping because you took the burning stake off your stove and now you just want it to

00:57:44   be quiet, right?

00:57:46   So they have IR sensors in them, and my smoke detector kept going off and I couldn't figure

00:57:50   it out.

00:57:51   And it turns out that it was somehow getting IR signals while we were all sleeping from

00:57:56   the neighbor watching their TV in their house.

00:57:59   They would point their remote at the television.

00:58:01   This is my theory because everyone in our house is asleep.

00:58:04   It's like the middle of the night.

00:58:05   But it was on the second floor and it did have sort of line of sight to a neighbor's

00:58:09   window of their bedroom.

00:58:10   And I can imagine them sitting on their bed changing channels on their TV with their remote

00:58:14   and turning off our smoke detector.

00:58:16   And experiments back this up when I used the super secret as searched on the internet sequence

00:58:22   of button presses that you could tell it to disable its IR sensor.

00:58:26   Never happened again.

00:58:27   So I'm thinking like, "Oh, it's not a security problem, but it could be annoying if you had

00:58:32   something set up."

00:58:33   Or I guess in Marco's case, it's probably more likely it's just the actual remote and

00:58:37   not your Raspberry Pi.

00:58:38   But like a situation where someone's not trying to mess with you, but through some confluence

00:58:42   of wireless signaling and events and strange hacks that you'd set up, something happens

00:58:47   that causes the garage door to open in the middle of the night and you keep waking up

00:58:50   and you're like, "I checked before I went to sleep and it was closed.

00:58:52   Why is it open now?"

00:58:54   And it's not a person messing with you, it's just like your neighbor opening their garage

00:58:58   door or something and it turns out it's opening yours too.

00:59:00   All right.

00:59:01   And now we're in.

00:59:02   Let's be done with follow-up.

00:59:04   And there is an interesting story that broke yesterday, I believe, as we record this.

00:59:11   And I don't think I dig it.

00:59:14   Joe Rogan has announced that he is going to be taking his show to Spotify.

00:59:19   Now, Joe Rogan, he was the Fear Factor guy, right?

00:59:22   He was.

00:59:23   He was the Fear Factor guy.

00:59:24   He was less puffy then, but yeah, that's him.

00:59:27   So I guess he's ostensibly a comedian.

00:59:30   Like I've not listened to any of his podcasts, but it seems that by almost anyone's measure,

00:59:36   he is literally the most popular podcast in the world.

00:59:41   Something to the order of like 192 million listeners and also like three to five million

00:59:46   YouTube viewers for each episode.

00:59:48   And supposedly Spotify brought a $100 million pile of cash to Joe and said, "Please come

00:59:57   to Spotify at the end of the year."

00:59:58   I don't know if that's the real amount.

01:00:00   That's just the last number I saw being thrown around.

01:00:02   So don't take these numbers as written.

01:00:04   I was trying to find a link for the story and it's very difficult to find a good definitive

01:00:08   report that's not filled with a bunch of garbage.

01:00:09   But anyway, as of recording, this is the number we heard.

01:00:13   So Joe Rogan has gone to Spotify and he is taking presumably a large chunk of these almost

01:00:21   200 million listeners to Spotify with him.

01:00:23   And that really bums me out.

01:00:26   And I'd like to get out of the way first so we can just move on.

01:00:32   If Spotify would like to offer the three of us $100 million to go to Spotify, I don't

01:00:36   know if I speak for my co-host, but I would absolutely go to Spotify for $100 million.

01:00:40   You should explain what "go to Spotify" means in this context though because that's

01:00:45   one of the nuances.

01:00:46   I had to read several stories before I mostly gathered this.

01:00:49   When we say "go to Spotify" in this case, what we mean is Joe Rogan's got a podcast

01:00:54   and you can just go to his feed right now and download it and just listen for free and

01:00:57   it's got ads on it.

01:00:58   Surprise, it's a podcast.

01:01:01   Going to Spotify means his podcast will still be free to download and listen to and it will

01:01:07   still have ads in it.

01:01:09   The only difference is you can't listen to it unless you sign up for Spotify, which is

01:01:13   a thing that you can do for pay but also for free.

01:01:16   You can sign up as a user for Spotify and not give them any money and download the Spotify

01:01:21   app to whatever device you have and then search for the Joe Rogan podcast and hit play and

01:01:26   listen to it and that podcast will have ads on it.

01:01:28   So from your perspective as a listener, the only thing that's changed is now you previously

01:01:34   listened to it in whatever your podcast app was and now you can't, you have to listen

01:01:37   to it through Spotify because that's the only place you can get it.

01:01:39   It basically stops being a podcast and starts being a thing you can get in Spotify because

01:01:43   a podcast, kind of by definition, is a thing that's available on an RSS feed that can be

01:01:47   played by a podcast client.

01:01:49   So yeah, he's not going to really have a podcast anymore.

01:01:52   He's going to have a Spotify thing and people will have to sign up for Spotify if they haven't

01:01:56   already and listen to it in the app but it's not like you have to now pay money to listen

01:02:03   to Joe Rogan and it's also not like his show won't have ads anymore.

01:02:06   - Yeah and there's a lot of complicating factors here that are worth knowing.

01:02:11   You know, Spotify bought Gimlet this past year of which I was investor disclosure so

01:02:16   I made money from that deal.

01:02:18   So Spotify has been making large podcast acquisitions recently and when you think about it from

01:02:24   Spotify's point of view, it makes total sense because they are, as I said back then and

01:02:27   I won't go into it too much but like they're a music streaming service.

01:02:31   For every minute that you spend listening to music on Spotify, they have to pay a royalty

01:02:36   to whatever you play.

01:02:37   It's like if they can suck away some of that time that you would have otherwise listened

01:02:42   to music and make you listen to podcasts instead, they don't pay per listen.

01:02:46   They don't pay per stream for podcasts.

01:02:49   They run their own podcast directory.

01:02:52   Many podcasts are in it.

01:02:53   I think including ours, though no one listens to it there which for a reason I'll give them

01:02:56   to in a few minutes and honestly, we might not keep it there forever but we'll see.

01:03:02   Anyway, people can listen to podcasts there for free and the podcast creators don't get

01:03:06   paid by Spotify.

01:03:08   Spotify is almost certainly working on, I think they've even said they're working on

01:03:12   some kind of like big ad platform for podcasters but for the most part, they have their own

01:03:16   kind of copy of the podcasting world.

01:03:18   You have to opt into it because they do a whole bunch of weird crap with your show that

01:03:23   if you opt in, you have your show on Spotify but Spotify is not, again, they're not paying

01:03:27   per listen.

01:03:28   It makes a ton of sense for Spotify who has always had pretty shaky financials because

01:03:33   they have to pay a lot of money to the record companies to get as many people as possible

01:03:37   listening to podcasts instead of music because they will make more money from those people

01:03:42   than they will with music people because they're not paying royalties for every listen for

01:03:46   podcasts.

01:03:47   They have a huge financial incentive to do this.

01:03:50   Additionally, they are building in a huge distribution front end for this medium and

01:03:58   they're building their own ad network for it and so they will be able to have podcasters

01:04:03   go put their show on Spotify, opt into Spotify's automatic monetization similar to like Google

01:04:09   AdSense on web pages where you're just like, "All right, well look, I have a show.

01:04:12   I don't have a lot of listeners.

01:04:14   I can't get big sponsors but if I have Spotify auto insert ads for me, maybe I can make 12

01:04:19   bucks a month."

01:04:20   It will be that kind of thing and do enough of that, you can get pretty big as the platform

01:04:25   there and you can make additional revenue that way.

01:04:28   There's tons of business reasons why Spotify wants to do this and the people who run Spotify

01:04:32   seem pretty smart and they really know their stuff about music but the people who run Spotify

01:04:39   and who are doing all these deals don't seem like they really get podcasts.

01:04:44   They're certainly not podcast enthusiasts.

01:04:46   They're certainly not listening to shows like this or anything even in our world.

01:04:51   They're not listening to independently produced small shows like this.

01:04:57   They're listening to Joe Rogan.

01:04:59   They're listening to if you go to like the top 10 podcasts and Apple podcasts, they're

01:05:05   listening to those and they think that's the podcasting market and they're making a player

01:05:11   successfully and getting a lot of market share successfully for other people like that.

01:05:17   Spotify launched their podcast thing I think about a year and a half ago, something like

01:05:21   that and they got a lot of market share really fast but it's been mostly additive market

01:05:26   share.

01:05:27   There's almost no people who are leaving their current podcast app and going to Spotify instead.

01:05:33   Most of the market share they've gotten has been additive.

01:05:36   They have quickly amassed a substantial market share I think about something like a fifth

01:05:41   the size of Apple, maybe a quarter the size of Apple in the podcast space but those were

01:05:46   people who just came out of nowhere.

01:05:48   They didn't move from Apple and Overcast and everything else.

01:05:54   If you look at their demographics also, the kinds of shows that do well on Spotify are

01:06:00   those really big, big name mass audience shows.

01:06:04   It's not the specialized shows that are like made more casually like ours, made for more

01:06:12   specialized interests like tech or whatever.

01:06:15   It's not that.

01:06:17   It's those big general interest public radio style shows of hey, this thing's interesting.

01:06:22   There's a bunch of production and a lot of overhead for our format so we can fit seven

01:06:25   minutes of content into a 30 minute show.

01:06:29   It's that kind of stuff.

01:06:31   That entire market is huge.

01:06:33   It's a massive part of podcast listenership but it's not us.

01:06:40   It's not you listening to this show.

01:06:43   It's not me and John and Casey producing this show.

01:06:46   It's not me as the maker of Overcast.

01:06:48   We operate in a whole different world over here.

01:06:51   It happens to use the same technology and most of the same apps but it might as well

01:06:57   be a different medium functionally.

01:06:58   When you look at the business, we are so completely separate.

01:07:03   I looked at some stats and Joe Rogan is Overcast's number one podcast.

01:07:10   I looked at the top 100 podcasts in Overcast.

01:07:15   The top 20 or so match pretty well for if you look at Apple's top and Pocket Cast and

01:07:20   all the other big players, the top 20 is pretty much the same across all of us which is good.

01:07:24   It means we have significant market share enough that the average people work their

01:07:29   way in and we see the same rough stats basically.

01:07:34   I looked at the top 100 list and the only shows in the top 100 that I listen to are

01:07:42   this, the talk show, relay shows, and Hello Internet.

01:07:48   All of which are shows by people I know.

01:07:53   Those shows are big on Overcast disproportionately to how big they are in real life.

01:07:59   ATP on Overcast is I think it's number 22 or 21, something like that.

01:08:03   It is by far not the number 21 most popular podcast in the world.

01:08:08   It just happens to be Overcast users are overrepresented on Overcast because I make it.

01:08:13   The world of podcasting, it started out with us, nerds, hobbyists, and then it grew way

01:08:22   past us.

01:08:23   In the first wave it grew past us with This American Life and the first wave of public

01:08:26   radio style shows.

01:08:28   More recently it's grown way past even that to the massive productions, first with big

01:08:35   comedians, celebrities, and now it is that.

01:08:38   Joe Rogan is big, was big.

01:08:41   It's way beyond the initial hobbyist level stuff.

01:08:45   But that hobbyist level stuff is itself a great place to be and a great business to

01:08:50   be in.

01:08:52   And that's what we're in.

01:08:53   And so to some extent we should be concerned that Spotify is not only trying but succeeding

01:09:01   in locking down large parts of this open ecosystem into their own proprietary walled garden and

01:09:07   they're going to mess with it.

01:09:09   You better believe they're going to mess with it.

01:09:11   One of the ways you can tell how little they understand podcasting or care about it and

01:09:16   how little their audience understands and cares about podcasting really is how crappy

01:09:20   of an experience it is listening to podcasts and Spotify.

01:09:23   It's a terrible podcast player but they don't care and it doesn't matter.

01:09:28   It won't affect them at all because the people listening to podcasts and Spotify are mostly

01:09:32   casual users listening to those big name shows who are not like podcast power users.

01:09:36   They're not like podcast nerds who want all the different controls and options and features

01:09:41   that a modern podcast app would have.

01:09:44   So to some extent we should be concerned.

01:09:48   Shows are moving there and that is going to hurt our ecosystem to some degree.

01:09:53   I don't think we know to what degree though.

01:09:55   It could hurt us a lot.

01:09:57   It could especially hurt us badly in the money department.

01:10:00   It could be really, really bad if a huge portion of sponsorship and ways to monetize your show

01:10:08   like that become you have to put it on Spotify and use their ads because that's where all

01:10:13   the money is going.

01:10:15   That would be really damaging to a lot of people.

01:10:18   Although keep in mind that the vast majority of podcasts out there don't have ads on them

01:10:24   at all.

01:10:25   It's a huge long tail and while like the top handful of percentage of podcasts have ads,

01:10:32   there's a massive amount that don't that either are not monetized at all because people

01:10:38   just do them because they like to do them and there's nothing wrong with that or they're

01:10:43   monetized in different ways.

01:10:45   Maybe they sell merchandise instead.

01:10:47   Maybe they have a Patreon or membership program instead.

01:10:49   Maybe they sell a book and they're using the podcast to promote their book.

01:10:53   Stuff like that.

01:10:54   There's all sorts of other ways people use podcasts to make money that are not just having

01:10:57   ads in them.

01:10:58   But certainly having ads in them is the way that almost every big show makes money and

01:11:03   it is a way that most of the money is made, period.

01:11:06   So anything that affects that and could potentially lock that down into one ecosystem is very

01:11:11   damaging.

01:11:13   So that we do have to be worried about.

01:11:16   However because this is an open ecosystem, because like what Spotify does doesn't directly

01:11:23   affect my ability to make a general purpose app that reads public RSS feeds, it doesn't

01:11:29   affect your ability as a customer to read those feeds and to play the audio files in

01:11:33   those feeds.

01:11:34   So we have our own separated islands out here in geek land and it's fine.

01:11:39   That's the beauty of the open ecosystem.

01:11:40   It's all decentralized for the most part, mostly decentralized.

01:11:44   They can't really do anything that would really kill us.

01:11:48   So we will largely be fine as long as people stick around to listen.

01:11:54   And I think that's likely to happen.

01:11:57   At least for shows like this.

01:11:59   Now if I was an investor in big podcast content right now, like some major show or trying

01:12:06   to get some kind of big celebrities, I'd be nervous about Spotify as a competitor there.

01:12:12   But in the area that we are operating in, as both us being the host of the show and

01:12:17   me being the owner of Overcast, I think we'll be alright.

01:12:21   But it's going to be different if Spotify succeeds at what they intend to be doing.

01:12:26   And they probably will, honestly.

01:12:29   They are buying a lot of big content.

01:12:32   They are locking stuff down into their platform.

01:12:35   They are going to be working on, or already are working on, some pretty major monetization

01:12:39   things that will definitely threaten everything in our ecosystem and the money side especially.

01:12:45   But as long as people keep listening to shows like this and keep supporting independent

01:12:50   shows by listening, if they have sponsorships, do that.

01:12:54   If they have memberships, like we're about to do that.

01:12:57   How are you supposed to support them and listen to them?

01:12:59   We can be okay if the people are also willing to listen here.

01:13:04   So if someone goes to Spotify to listen to one show a week, or two shows or five shows

01:13:09   a week, I don't care, and they also still listen to shows like this in whatever app

01:13:13   they want, we're still fine.

01:13:17   Obviously I hope Spotify has less of an impact than that.

01:13:22   But they might not, and that's okay.

01:13:25   If Spotify captures all of the people somehow, all of the people who listen to big shows

01:13:30   like Joe Rogan, who don't listen to tech shows at all mostly, or don't listen to our

01:13:35   show at least, or any show that I've ever heard, that I listen to, that doesn't necessarily

01:13:40   need to impact us.

01:13:42   And as I mentioned earlier, it does kind of feel like the podcast market is like two different

01:13:46   things.

01:13:47   It's the thing it used to be, which is what we are.

01:13:50   Smaller, independently produced shows for the most part, all on their own sites and

01:13:54   networks with their own RSS feeds, playing in all these different apps.

01:13:58   And then there's like the celebrity podcasts, the big mass market ones.

01:14:03   Those have co-adjusted in the same ecosystem for a while, but they don't have to.

01:14:08   There's no guarantee that because they were unified into one ecosystem for so long, that

01:14:11   they will continue being in the same ecosystem.

01:14:15   If they split off, and they go to their own Netflix kind of thing, or if they go off to

01:14:19   Spotify and all the regular quote regular people out there listen to their podcasts

01:14:23   on Spotify, and then all the nerds like us listen in podcast players that actually are

01:14:27   good, that's not that bad of a thing.

01:14:29   As long as the money part doesn't get too messed up by their moves into that, you know,

01:14:34   into the ad system, as long as they don't destroy the ability for other shows to sell

01:14:40   ads and make money, I think we'll be mostly okay.

01:14:45   Complicating factors, which we'll get to once we talk about membership in a future

01:14:49   episode.

01:14:51   There are other things that can destroy that sponsorship environment also, some of which

01:14:56   are starting to happen.

01:14:57   Our world of podcasts that, you know, we deal either directly or very close to directly

01:15:04   with sponsors most of the time, and you listen, and we give them your download numbers, and

01:15:09   they buy ads and stuff, that system might be going away over the next couple of years

01:15:14   for other reasons, not Spotify.

01:15:16   And if that happens, we're all gonna have to figure something else out anyway.

01:15:19   But Spotify's moves in particular are unlikely to affect shows like ours.

01:15:26   They definitely will affect bigger shows, but as long as people like you keep listening

01:15:32   to shows like this in apps like whatever you're listening to this on, we can keep having fun,

01:15:37   we can keep doing this, we can keep our business going regardless of what the like big podcasters

01:15:42   do with their business.

01:15:43   That's interesting in these sort of battles that we've had in the past between open ecosystems,

01:15:51   systems built on protocols and technologies that are not owned by any single commercial

01:15:56   entity versus, you know, proprietary systems.

01:16:01   In general, open has proved very resilient in the scenarios where it has grown enough

01:16:08   to live, where if it's reached viability, it's very difficult to kill it.

01:16:12   One example I bring up all the time is email.

01:16:15   Email is terrible and crappy from a technical perspective, but it got critical mass before

01:16:20   anyone could come in and try to get rid of it.

01:16:21   And despite many, many people trying, plain old regular email continues to cling to life

01:16:28   because no one is able to sort of get critical mass, not Hotmail, not Gmail, not AOL.

01:16:35   Nobody is able to get everybody into a thing and say, "Email, whatever, like you're all

01:16:40   on AOL email now or now Hotmail is email and regular old email, we don't support that anymore."

01:16:45   Like no one's been able to capture it all and say, "Proprietary, we own you all now.

01:16:49   We have everyone's email address."

01:16:51   Because email is protocol, there's a bunch of them, they're open, anyone can implement

01:16:56   them, you can make an email client and an email server.

01:16:57   It doesn't mean there hasn't been consolidation.

01:17:00   Most people's email address probably are Hotmail or Gmail or whatever, right?

01:17:04   But email itself, the protocol, is why you can still have things like, I was going to

01:17:10   say 37 signals, Basecamp's upcoming Hey.com email client.

01:17:15   The only reason they're able to do that is because guess what?

01:17:17   Email is still an open system.

01:17:19   They don't have to sign an agreement with Google to be able to send email to Gmail users

01:17:23   or vice versa.

01:17:25   It's an open protocol, everybody exchange email, it has proved resilient, right?

01:17:30   The web is another example.

01:17:32   It's the platform that nobody owns.

01:17:34   Many companies have tried to embrace and extend it, Microsoft with Internet Explorer, putting

01:17:39   proprietary stuff in there like the ActiveX controls back when they had platform dominance,

01:17:43   can we make that happen and turn the web browser into just a fancy container for running Win32

01:17:47   applications?

01:17:48   Like, people have tried.

01:17:49   There's been lots of junk in the browser, Flash in more recent memory, right?

01:17:53   But all that stuff comes and goes and the web and HTTP and the standards that underlie

01:17:58   continue to exist and evolve and nobody can stop you from putting up a website.

01:18:05   There's lots of companies you can do with, hey, Squarespace, sponsor of the show, right?

01:18:09   Most people's websites probably do use one of those types of services because who wants

01:18:13   to, besides Marco, do it all yourself.

01:18:18   But the web as an entity has been resistant to all those people.

01:18:21   We didn't all get owned by GeoCities.

01:18:24   Even Facebook, which owns like the entire planet, could not destroy the web.

01:18:28   They sort of circumvented it and live off of it and use it to feed their giant, evil

01:18:33   machine, but the web continues to exist.

01:18:38   Podcasts are very much like that in that it's an open protocol built on top of the web and

01:18:42   RSS and all that other stuff.

01:18:44   There's very little anything it can do to kill that technology once it reached critical

01:18:49   mass and I think it has.

01:18:51   But just like all the other things I mentioned, email, web, or whatever, you can kill individual

01:18:55   websites.

01:18:56   You can kill individual email providers.

01:18:58   You can kill those things pretty easily.

01:19:00   You can really mess with that entire ecosystem.

01:19:03   And the example that I hope you're all thinking of right now when I mention all these different

01:19:06   words is, hey, what about RSS?

01:19:08   Didn't Google Reader basically kill RSS by taking an open protocol and bringing most

01:19:12   of the users into Google Reader and then discontinuing it and then news readers, quote unquote, news

01:19:18   readers fizzled?

01:19:20   That is the type of scenario where they didn't kill it outright.

01:19:24   You can download Net News about it today and it works great.

01:19:25   It works better than ever and you can read feeds with it and sites still have RSS feeds.

01:19:29   But they did put a significant dent in it.

01:19:31   They didn't get everyone into it and change the protocol and suddenly no one has RSS and

01:19:35   RSS doesn't exist anymore.

01:19:37   And even when Google Reader existed, you continued to use a thing that was not Google Reader

01:19:42   to read news.

01:19:43   Like they didn't actually embrace and extend or make proprietary news.

01:19:47   But they did get enough users into it such that when it went away, a lot of people thought,

01:19:52   well, basically what they thought was Google Reader equals news.

01:19:56   Google Reader goes away, that means news reading goes away.

01:20:00   If Spotify ever got to the point where people think podcast equals Spotify and let's say

01:20:06   Spotify goes out of business or stops doing podcasts or whatever, although I don't see

01:20:09   why they would for all the reasons Marco mentioned, people say, oh, well, now that Spotify is

01:20:13   gone, I guess podcasts are over too because podcast equals Spotify.

01:20:18   That's not true and never will be true just the same way that Google Reader is an RSS.

01:20:23   But if people ever get into that mindset, if Spotify ever gets that kind of critical

01:20:26   mass, that could be people's thinking and it could really hurt the ecosystem.

01:20:31   It's taken a while for news reading to sort of regain its footing.

01:20:35   And by the way, podcasts are essentially news feeds.

01:20:38   They use the same standard as the quote-unquote news readers.

01:20:40   You can look at podcasts in an RSS reader.

01:20:45   In the end, it's an RSS feed with a bunch of audio attachments, right?

01:20:49   So it's all kind of wrapped up in the same thing.

01:20:52   But in these battles between open and proprietary, despite the fact that it's difficult for

01:20:58   proprietary to actually outright win, it can really screw things up and it can definitely

01:21:04   rock the boat.

01:21:05   And as Marco mentioned, ecosystems built on open platforms, they can have their own sort

01:21:08   of earthquakes and tremors totally unrelated to anybody trying to do something.

01:21:13   And the final factor I'll mention here is the industry does learn from the past in a

01:21:19   weird way.

01:21:20   There's sort of institutional memory of the people and companies involved.

01:21:24   The best example I can think of is when Apple came in with the iTunes store and convinced

01:21:29   all the record companies – I love that we still call them record companies, the music

01:21:33   companies, whatever – to sign up with iTunes and Apple became like the middleman for the

01:21:39   entire digital music industry back when people were downloading MP3s.

01:21:44   And in the beginning, they signed up for like, "Sure, Apple, whatever.

01:21:46   You can do this today.

01:21:47   We're making a bazillion dollar off CDs.

01:21:48   You want to sell a bunch of files?

01:21:50   I don't even understand what you're talking about.

01:21:52   Go ahead.

01:21:53   Here.

01:21:54   Here's our music.

01:21:55   Good luck.

01:21:56   Make sure you give us 70 cents out of every dollar, right?

01:21:57   Whatever."

01:21:58   And it turned out that digital music – selling MP3s on the internet turned out to be a really

01:22:02   good business and Apple very quickly dominated that business and the record companies didn't

01:22:07   like it.

01:22:08   They're like, "Why are we going through this middleman that's not even us?

01:22:11   Suddenly the majority of our revenue is coming through Apple?

01:22:14   Who the hell is Apple?

01:22:15   Why aren't we making that money?

01:22:16   I don't like this at all."

01:22:19   And when other parts of the industry went through similar transitions, "Oh, people

01:22:25   are going to watch movies digitally somehow now?"

01:22:28   The movie companies, sometimes the same companies as the "record companies," learned from

01:22:32   the past and said, "Let's not put all of our eggs in the same basket."

01:22:37   But even within the music industry going from downloads to streaming or playing Amazon against

01:22:42   Apple, they all looked around and said, "We don't want to happen to us what happened

01:22:47   to the record companies when Apple came in."

01:22:50   So if we have the content, let's spread it around a little bit.

01:22:54   I'm not sure if there is any set of large power entities in the world of podcasting

01:23:01   that contain that collective wisdom, but I'm hoping that either A, Spotify just literally

01:23:07   doesn't have enough money to buy its way to that much market share, or B, the content,

01:23:12   the things that these people need, they need the content.

01:23:15   The people who own the content start to think at some point, "Is it really a good idea

01:23:19   for all of us to put in with Spotify?"

01:23:24   Especially if they're out there in the world, there's some big, huge popular show like

01:23:26   Serial or whatever, and eventually Spotify comes to them and says, "Hey, Serial or whoever

01:23:31   owns you, wouldn't you like to become a Spotify exclusive and only be available on Spotify

01:23:37   and we'll give you umpteen bajillion dollars?"

01:23:39   I hope someone involved in that says, "Spotify has really been cranking up in market share

01:23:46   and lots of people are listening and people are starting to equate Spotify with podcasts.

01:23:53   Should we do this or should we, in the same way like the movie companies, whoever's saying

01:23:56   this, say, "Well, we'd like our movies not just to be on iTunes.

01:23:59   We want them on other services too because we don't want to give Apple all this power."

01:24:04   It's a bad idea for content creators to give a single platform a huge amount of power.

01:24:10   Witness YouTube, which also factors into the Joe Rogan thing.

01:24:13   That's not a great situation for creators.

01:24:15   Yes, everyone loves the fact that YouTube lets them distribute their stuff worldwide

01:24:18   and it made billionaires out of big stars and it's a great platform to get your start

01:24:22   on, but in the end, when you look around, you realize, kind of like the App Store or

01:24:26   anything else, YouTube owns us.

01:24:28   YouTube owns the entire online video space and I am at their whim.

01:24:32   If they decide they don't want to let me monetize something or want to kick me off their platform

01:24:37   or whatever, that's career ending for me as how the career is called "YouTuber."

01:24:42   That's a bad situation to be in.

01:24:45   If your profession is named after a company, that company owns you practically.

01:24:50   I really hope that, I mean, this doesn't apply to us, but this applies to those big shows,

01:24:54   those top 20 shows, those shows with millions and millions of listeners.

01:24:58   Spotify can keep buying them, starting with the number one and the number two and the

01:25:00   number three, but when they start going down the top 20, I'm hoping at some point somebody

01:25:04   says, "This is not good for all of us to go to Spotify.

01:25:09   We need to play Spotify off against whoever that competitor might be."

01:25:12   Some people suggested Apple doing this.

01:25:14   I really hope they don't because I like their current hands-off attitude, but I think there

01:25:18   is sort of an immune response of the industry to this getting really out of hand for big

01:25:26   shows.

01:25:27   This again is probably not relevant to us because we may die in an earthquake unrelated

01:25:33   to Spotify in the industry related to ad sales or whatever, but as a listener of shows, I

01:25:42   listen to some big shows too.

01:25:44   I'll listen to, I was going to say Reply All, but Heavyweight, I don't know if that's such

01:25:50   a big show.

01:25:51   I guess most of my shows are kind of obscure.

01:25:53   What's the most mass market show I listen to?

01:25:56   I listen to 99 PI and I actually really, really like it.

01:25:59   Yeah, there you go.

01:26:00   99% Invisible.

01:26:01   What's the one that I'm not managing to think of?

01:26:03   I'm so bad.

01:26:04   This American Life, duh.

01:26:05   Yeah, I'll listen to this American Life.

01:26:07   I'm not an animal, but I don't want Spotify to own all those shows.

01:26:13   I really don't.

01:26:14   I don't want Spotify to become the Google Reader of podcasts.

01:26:19   I don't want them to become the iTunes Music Store.

01:26:23   I certainly sure as hell don't want them to become the YouTube of podcasts.

01:26:27   That is like the nightmare scenario for everybody, for consumers and creators alike.

01:26:31   I know everyone thinks they love YouTube, like, "Oh, YouTube is the place I go and there's

01:26:34   great videos there," or whatever, but there are things that you are not seeing and are

01:26:39   never going to see because YouTube owns that platform.

01:26:42   They may be things from creators that you already like, "YouTubers," who want to do

01:26:47   a thing or make a thing, but they can't because of some YouTube policy or because it's not

01:26:53   monetizable in the same way or because YouTube's algorithm herds them toward – we hear this

01:26:58   from YouTube creators all the time – that there's what they would like to make and there's

01:27:01   what they have to make to continue to make a living on top of YouTube's algorithm because

01:27:07   YouTube's algorithm favors certain things and doesn't favor other things.

01:27:10   If you want your video to be seen, you have to sort of fit into that mold and that shapes

01:27:14   content.

01:27:15   It was bad enough when there was three TV networks when I was a kid.

01:27:17   Imagine if there was just one and it was a private company not beholden to anybody.

01:27:22   I didn't want to turn this into a YouTube slamming fest, but anyway, that's what comes

01:27:26   to mind.

01:27:27   So the Spotify situation, someone asked earlier in the chat, "Is there some article I can

01:27:31   point to to show people who don't care about the podcast ecosystem why they should be sad

01:27:35   about Spotify?"

01:27:36   I don't have an article like that and honestly, it's the type of thing that the average

01:27:40   person shouldn't ever need to know just like they never knew – just like nobody

01:27:45   who's not close enough to this industry knows that YouTube is seen as a potential

01:27:50   bad actor by people who make their living on the platform.

01:27:52   That's all inside baseball.

01:27:54   Nobody knows or cares about that just like nobody knows or cares about the various battles

01:27:57   between the big three networks when I was a kid.

01:28:01   The solution to this problem is not going to be get everyone you know to understand

01:28:04   that Spotify is bad for podcasting.

01:28:06   The solution is – Marco always alludes to and it sounds terrible, but it's the truth.

01:28:10   It's like if you want to continue seeing a thing in your life, support that thing to

01:28:16   the best of your ability.

01:28:18   Because podcasting is built on open protocols, that's it.

01:28:21   You don't have to do anything else.

01:28:22   There's no other company you have to give money to unless you actually own This American

01:28:27   Life.

01:28:28   You don't have to worry about decisions about selling to Spotify.

01:28:30   You as a consumer just use your ears and your wallets to support the things you want to

01:28:37   see and continue to exist and they will continue to exist.

01:28:41   It could – meanwhile, there could be a big calamity happening over there in the rest

01:28:45   of the network and you may be sad if suddenly you have to listen to This American Life with

01:28:49   annoying dynamically inserted ads that creep you out.

01:28:52   But there's not much you can do about that.

01:28:55   If I had a good article that did explain this, I would put it in the show notes, but I don't

01:28:58   have one.

01:28:59   I don't have any decisions.

01:29:00   Maybe we'll put it in the next episode.

01:29:01   But in the meantime, I guess just keep supporting and listening to the things that you like

01:29:08   and mostly hope for the best unless you have the ear of people who own one of the top 20

01:29:13   podcasts.

01:29:14   Yeah, and just a few other little addendums to that like – addenda?

01:29:18   Addenday?

01:29:19   Anyway, you're right about how YouTube really has dominated that medium.

01:29:25   And I don't know any big players on YouTube who are incredibly happy with YouTube.

01:29:32   I don't know any – because like that company, I mean they have a lot of their own problems,

01:29:35   but like it's not good to have someone get in the way between you and your audience and/or

01:29:41   you and your money.

01:29:43   And when you get big enough, those problems get pretty big and the risk goes up.

01:29:47   And big companies don't want to be beholden to some random platform that doesn't have

01:29:53   their best interest in mind necessarily or maybe doesn't care who they are.

01:29:57   And so nobody wants Spotify to get between them and their customers or them and their

01:30:02   money.

01:30:03   If Spotify does do some kind of big ad thing, which again they are working on, so if Spotify

01:30:08   succeeds in some kind of big ad thing like a way to monetize podcasts against a lot of

01:30:13   people to go sign up for Spotify, possibly exclusively, I don't know if it would work

01:30:16   that way but possibly, then I don't see big shows like This American Life, like I

01:30:23   don't see them going to that.

01:30:25   They have their own way to make money.

01:30:26   They have their own platforms.

01:30:27   They have their own dynamic ad insertion and automatic sales and large scale deals and

01:30:34   all their own data analysis.

01:30:36   They don't need Spotify to do that for them.

01:30:37   They do that themselves.

01:30:39   And they don't want Spotify doing that for them because they don't want some other

01:30:42   company getting between them and their money and them and their customers.

01:30:46   And so I don't think most of the large shows would make deals like that which should be

01:30:51   exclusive.

01:30:52   You know, there is, if you become exclusive to any one platform, whether it's paid or

01:30:57   not, as you mentioned, Spotify has a free plan which it seems like most of its users

01:31:02   use.

01:31:03   So we're not talking about having to pay a special service to go listen to Joe Rogan

01:31:07   now.

01:31:08   We're talking about having to use a certain app instead of using any podcast app.

01:31:12   Now you have to use this particular app to listen to this podcast.

01:31:15   Which you're likely to have already installed because they have hundreds of millions of

01:31:18   users of Spotify already.

01:31:20   What it means though is some percentage of your audience will get lost in that transition.

01:31:26   Granted with Spotify it's not going to be as much of a percentage as it was something

01:31:30   like Luminary where they were asking people to pay, first of all, to pay a period no matter

01:31:36   what.

01:31:37   And then also to listen in this app that nobody already had.

01:31:40   So it was like starting from zero, right?

01:31:41   And that went nowhere and they burned through $200 million and somehow got a little bit

01:31:44   more but they're going to burn through that too.

01:31:46   It's not going to work.

01:31:47   Spotify will work a lot better because it is free and because so many people already

01:31:51   have it.

01:31:52   But there are still a lot of people who they're going to lose.

01:31:55   Joe Rogan is going to have a smaller audience there at least to start and probably for a

01:32:00   few years.

01:32:01   I don't know how long his deal is for but probably for a few years he can have a smaller

01:32:04   audience there than he has currently because a lot of people will move to Spotify to listen

01:32:09   to him but not all of them.

01:32:11   He might go down by a third or half.

01:32:13   It could be a big loss.

01:32:15   I don't know any of the big shows who would take on that kind of listener loss unless

01:32:20   they were getting paid absurd amounts of money like what he reportedly is getting.

01:32:24   But Spotify can't afford to do that for all the big shows.

01:32:28   They can afford to do it for one or two.

01:32:30   They're not going to do it for all of them.

01:32:31   They can't even if the big shows were game which they aren't.

01:32:34   Because problem number two is the big shows are already making really good money doing

01:32:38   what they're doing on their own.

01:32:40   So like and so was Joe Rogan.

01:32:42   Like he had ads in his show.

01:32:45   He was probably people are saying he might have made a hundred million dollars off this

01:32:48   deal.

01:32:49   By a lot of estimates he was probably making somewhere near that already with ads every

01:32:54   year.

01:32:55   Like he was he has a really big show.

01:32:57   He sells a lot of ads to a lot of people like so you know regardless the big companies are

01:33:02   already doing their own thing.

01:33:04   They have all their own stuff set up.

01:33:06   They have their own servers.

01:33:07   They have their own analytics.

01:33:08   They have their own ad platforms.

01:33:09   They have their own ad sales and they make that money directly.

01:33:13   They don't have middlemen getting in the way and taking some percentage of it and they're

01:33:18   not losing their audience in large chunks because they're locking it down to certain

01:33:22   apps.

01:33:23   If they could do that they could do it with their own apps.

01:33:25   Like they could make their own apps.

01:33:26   Some of them have and you know they could lock people in that way and say well now we

01:33:30   get a hundred percent of your attention and data and everything.

01:33:32   They don't because it's better for their businesses overall.

01:33:34   They make more money overall and reach way more people overall by staying in the open

01:33:38   ecosystem.

01:33:39   So I don't actually see a lot of them moving over and becoming Spotify exclusive.

01:33:44   Instead if Spotify is going to do you know some kind of major move into ad monetization

01:33:49   for podcasts it's going to be trying to capture small podcasts.

01:33:51   This is why they bought Anchor.

01:33:52   Like when they bought Gimlet they bought Anchor at the same time and the reason why I think

01:33:57   I wasn't in any of these conversations or anything but the reason why I assume they

01:34:00   bought Anchor is to have that some kind of like basis with which to make an all-in-one

01:34:05   thing like all right you want to start a podcast?

01:34:08   Start here.

01:34:09   That way you know they immediately get rights to it because you know that's probably built

01:34:13   into Anchor and they can also immediately you know have you hook into their ad system

01:34:17   and have you start making 40 cents a month using their ad system and do that enough times

01:34:23   or have some of those podcasts get kind of medium-sized and they can make real money

01:34:26   there.

01:34:27   So I think that's their long-term plan here but to do all that they just need a lot of

01:34:31   people using Spotify for podcasts and they need you know if they keep calling it Anchor

01:34:35   or whether they eventually just call it you know Spotify podcast they need people making

01:34:39   podcasts on there and signing up for their monetization platform but you know again I

01:34:44   think if we continue to just run our own thing out here in the wilderness we'll be fine

01:34:52   as long as our listeners stay here and so far we've had our show on Spotify for a

01:34:58   few months at least and it has effectively zero listeners like no one listens to it there

01:35:04   because the type of people who listen to this type of show don't listen on Spotify and

01:35:08   seem to not want to and I'm sure many of our listeners have Spotify memberships and

01:35:13   use it for music but they don't want to listen to podcasts there because they're

01:35:16   nerds like us and they want their own they want better controls and they want all the

01:35:19   stuff in a podcast app and everything else so we will probably be fine but there is definitely

01:35:25   potential for the industry as a whole to have some pretty significant ripples from this.

01:35:30   So you nervous?

01:35:31   Are you scared?

01:35:32   Do you think you think it'll be all right?

01:35:33   I'm curious what it does to podcasting as a whole but again I think for the things that

01:35:39   both that I listen to and that I make I think I think they'll be fine.

01:35:46   And if Spotify backs a hundred million dollar pile of cash to your house are you going to

01:35:53   say yes?

01:35:54   Of course.

01:35:55   Look everyone has a price and everyone's price is generally under a hundred million

01:35:58   dollars.

01:35:59   People keep asking that but it's such an absurd question it's like what if someone offered

01:36:05   you a hundred million dollars for your car?

01:36:08   Everyone would do it like but no one's gonna offer you that because your car is not worth

01:36:12   a hundred million dollars so it's an absurd question what if I offered you a hundred million

01:36:15   dollars to raise your right hand would you raise your right hand?

01:36:18   Oh but you I thought you were a post-it what if they offered you a hundred million dollars

01:36:21   to eat fish but you don't like fish?

01:36:24   There are things you don't do but no one's ever gonna offer you that because it's not

01:36:27   worth that so you don't have to worry about it no one is gonna offer us that much money

01:36:31   for our show because our show is not worth that much but if they did in this absurd scenario

01:36:35   yes of course right so that's why I feel like it's you know it's it's not and and honestly

01:36:41   you said well but wouldn't that be a breach of your ethics or whatever no because our

01:36:44   show wouldn't help us Spotify gain any dominance in the industry we would be taking their free

01:36:49   money essentially and giving them nothing in return which is why they would never offer

01:36:52   us that much money so I think it's kind of a silly scenario but anyway anyway Spotify

01:36:56   call us we're ready for a hundred million dollars we're ready exactly that's our price

01:37:01   we could be argued down to 99 right yeah maybe.

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01:39:07   all right let's do some Ask ATP Play My Jam wants to know and I also heard this on upgrade

01:39:16   as well I don't know if this was the same question or not but Play My Jam wants to know

01:39:19   what clipboard managers do we use for me I use Alfred as my launcher and it has a basic

01:39:24   clipboard manager within that and that's all I've ever really needed John are you using

01:39:29   clipboard manager I could swear we had this question before but yeah I am using one I'm

01:39:33   using pastebot I use some free open source one for a long time but I like the tap pots

01:39:38   folks and so I wanted to try commercial product and I installed pastebot and I've been using

01:39:43   ever since and I'm fine with it one thing I learned recently this is actually ties into

01:39:47   one of my old semi-war stories about my Mac apps I couldn't figure out for the longest

01:39:54   time why when I logged in pastebot would throw up its user interface like this is like a

01:40:01   little window like a preferences style window or whatever it would pop that up and I would

01:40:04   just close it I was like why does it do that every login it's so weird like I do want it

01:40:09   to launch on login like I'd want that because I just always wanted to be running it but

01:40:13   why does it put the UI and always makes me dismiss that window I thought it was like

01:40:15   a weird bug or I'm like maybe my preferences are screwed up or whatever I must have run

01:40:20   pastebot like this for over a year before my little monkey brain said hey dummy didn't

01:40:25   you just spend you know 20 minutes on a podcast explaining how there's two different ways

01:40:29   that you can launch applications on login due to weird historical sandboxing things

01:40:32   do you remember that show yeah that was you pastebot probably is doing the same thing

01:40:38   and there are two different ways to launch on login you being you know an old school

01:40:42   Mac OS 10 troglodyte drag it into login items and system preferences thinking this is all

01:40:47   we're gonna make pastebot launch at login I'll put it in login items but you also have

01:40:51   the checkbox checked in the pastebot preferences that says launch on login and that's using

01:40:55   the new system it doesn't use login items so essentially it was launching on login through

01:41:01   like the new quote unquote modern weird ass sandbox system and then login items would

01:41:06   run or vice versa doesn't really matter which goes first and it would say please open this

01:41:09   app and if you open an app that's already open you basically get a reopen event in your

01:41:14   application another thing I learned writing my application and that usually you can applications

01:41:20   can respond any way they want to reopen event but usually what they do is they if they don't

01:41:24   have any open windows and they're already launched and they reopen event they just show

01:41:27   like their main window that's exactly what pastebot was doing so over a year later I

01:41:32   go into login items select pastebot hit the minus button remove it and guess what now

01:41:36   I log in and pastebot does not open its window in my face and I'm a big dummy so here's your

01:41:42   free tip but anyway pastebot it's a forpay app I forget how much it is it's cheap I think

01:41:49   it's in the Mac App Store and also not I tend to buy things outside the Mac App Store if

01:41:53   I can because they usually have more capabilities and be more money goes to the developer but

01:41:57   do whatever you want that's the one I recommend check it out and I use launch bar there's

01:42:02   lots of apps to do this I like launch bar you know both as a launcher and as a clipboard

01:42:07   manager because it's the one I like launch bar is the launcher I happen to be using when

01:42:12   I started using a clipboard manager and so it was it's the one that I developed muscle

01:42:17   memory and visual preference for so I've tried other ones since then and they didn't work

01:42:22   the way I wanted to with muscle memory and they didn't look the way that I wanted them

01:42:25   to look because they didn't look like launch bar so this is a wonderful area where whatever

01:42:32   however you want this to look and feel you can probably find something that looks and

01:42:35   feels the way you want it to and yeah launch bar is that thing for me I absolutely love

01:42:38   it and it's the one thing that like if I'm setting up a new computer and I don't have

01:42:43   that installed yet I it it hurts it hurts so much because you know first you hit command

01:42:48   space and you get spotlight search which is like spotlight search is almost a good launcher

01:42:53   like it's it's like an 85% good launcher you can use it that way it works roughly most

01:42:59   of the time it's mostly fast it has many capabilities it's fine but not having clipboard history

01:43:08   kills me it makes it so hard for me to work because I'm so used to it now this is also

01:43:14   one of the reasons why I am skeptical of like any kind of heavy work on iOS from my preferences

01:43:23   because iOS doesn't have anything like this that actually works and continuously runs

01:43:26   and everything I can't so unless it's not assistant level which Apple probably would

01:43:30   never do so like I just I love clipboard history and you know both with programming and with

01:43:36   just other kinds of general text stuff images even it works like it's just it's so good

01:43:42   and once you get used to clipboard history not having it is like not having a clipboard

01:43:47   like it's like it feels your computer feels so broken and so hobbled by not having it

01:43:52   once you're accustomed to it you really start to appreciate what it does for you it's like

01:43:56   a data loss bug yeah like because I if I go on if I go on a computer that doesn't have

01:44:01   clipboard history I will literally lose data because I will just assume I can copy and

01:44:05   copy and copy and then I can just paste them out later and on that thing the thing I copied

01:44:09   three copies ago is gone now and I'm like oh well don't worry it's in the clipboard

01:44:13   hit oh no like it's a data loss bug like you get so used to it that it is destructive like

01:44:18   it's not like oh you just want that thing that you're kind of used to and it's a habit

01:44:22   you have to change no it like it will actually cause you to make mistakes that you can't

01:44:26   recover from because the data is gone yeah like imagine if like if if before you set

01:44:32   your computer up the right way or if you were using someone else's computer imagine if cut

01:44:36   was just a synonym for delete so like oh I'm gonna cut this thing I'm gonna go paste it

01:44:40   over here wait it's not there that's how it feels like when as you're saying like and

01:44:45   it was a paragraph of text you just wrote it in an email and you cut it and it just

01:44:49   deleted it and sent it into nowhere and then you went to paste it and it wasn't there and

01:44:52   like well can I get that back it's like no it's gone now sorry yeah clipboard history

01:44:59   I strongly recommend you use it I don't care what app you use everyone just use it use

01:45:04   this fun use this feature somehow speaking of being a data being gone now here's a story

01:45:09   an old man story from classic Mac OS right classic Mac OS did not have clipboard history

01:45:13   built into the OS if there were third-party tools for it I don't really recall any of

01:45:16   them but I know that I didn't run them for most of the history of the operating system

01:45:20   and I'd find myself in situations like that where I will have cut something from some

01:45:24   application and then you know not really been aware of it in my mental buffer and then cut

01:45:30   something else and realize huh the thing I had gotten before was like a page of text

01:45:37   that I wrote for like a school report it's like you know that's thinking of me like do

01:45:41   I have to write that whole like page of that report again can I write it again you just

01:45:46   feel like you just want to crawl in a hole and die right but if you are a nerd and you're

01:45:51   on classic Mac OS and you have found yourself in the situation before because you're a young

01:45:55   and foolish child right there's all this was true for me classic Mac OS did not have what

01:46:01   it did not have everyone say it with me protected memory oh no so that people sold shareware

01:46:08   utilities that when you did that you would launch them and cross your fingers and tell

01:46:15   it what string you're looking for if it was text and it would search all RAM try to find

01:46:21   the thing the thing that you had cut and it would find it let me tell you it would find

01:46:27   it and you'd be like yes there's my page of our report and maybe the encoding would be

01:46:32   screwed up and then maybe you'd have like rich text stuff but you're just so happy to

01:46:35   have it back and then you would copy that and paste it into a teach text document and

01:46:41   save it you'd be like yeah you'd feel like a king of the universe protected memory it

01:46:46   sucks you should have complete access to the memory space technically you can do that on

01:46:50   a Mac OS too with if you had system integrity protection turned off or whatever and did

01:46:53   something as root but with 96 gigs of RAM it would probably take a lot longer and anyway

01:46:58   I still remember the good feeling it's like undulating files on DOS which maybe to give

01:47:02   you UPC troglodytes to use troglodytes for a second time this episode another thing to

01:47:07   relate to do you remember undelete in DOS?

01:47:09   Well yeah well cause yeah well and there's also this is this is works a lot very similarly

01:47:12   to how like if you have like an SD card recovery utility which are still a thing it works similarly

01:47:18   to that cause you can just read the whole card and you know read the raw sectors and

01:47:20   just pull out whatever data you can but yeah like in in DOS like the the way files would

01:47:24   be deleted in DOS was they would overwrite the first character of the file name with

01:47:30   either a null or a question mark or something like that it would show up as a question mark

01:47:33   in the undelete utilities and so and until those blocks of the disk were written over

01:47:37   by something else the data was still there and so you could just like it like the undelete

01:47:43   utilities would just scan the disk for these like abandoned files that were no longer listed

01:47:47   in the file system listings but they were still on disk until something overwrote them

01:47:52   and they could recover them and this is exactly how all those SD card recovery things work

01:47:57   today where like they will scan the SD card for whatever data happens to be in the in

01:48:02   the sections that are like marked by the housekeeping as available but there is still data there

01:48:08   from whatever was written to them last.

01:48:10   The moral of the story is use clipboard history.

01:48:13   Yeah.

01:48:14   All right, Luke Arthur writes from its release iOS 13 has received negative commentary regarding

01:48:18   its instability and lack of readiness for prime time.

01:48:21   Given such bad reports I indefinitely postponed upgrading my devices.

01:48:24   Now with the added features like mouse support on iPad and the upcoming COVID tracking API

01:48:28   which actually just landed today if I'm not mistaken I am finally seeing compelling reasons

01:48:32   to upgrade but I haven't heard much lately about the issues that early adopters were

01:48:35   having so how are you three feeling about the about the OS today hasn't matured and

01:48:39   stabilized yet or there's still downsides to consider.

01:48:42   For me I ran 13 pretty early and I think relatively early on within the first couple of months

01:48:49   it was fine for me anyway.

01:48:51   I would still say that if you're not hurting for Catalina don't touch it.

01:48:55   I genuinely think that Catalina is still not ready which is really uncomfortable given

01:49:00   that we're getting the next release next month in theory or at least a preview of it.

01:49:05   But yeah iOS 13 I think you're fine Catalina stay away if you can help it.

01:49:09   Marco what are you doing?

01:49:11   I think I'm roughly in the same boat.

01:49:13   I've been running 13 for so long now that I kind of forgot how good 12 was in comparison

01:49:20   if it was even really good.

01:49:23   So at this point I don't know I will say that the bug I'm having where mail does not show

01:49:28   it doesn't correctly insert new messages so like the symptom is on a mail mailbox in Apple's

01:49:35   built-in mail app you might have new mail and it doesn't show up there and what's actually

01:49:39   happening is it's being inserted at the bottom of the list but you can't see that from your

01:49:43   position at the top of the list and you can only fix it by like hitting the back button

01:49:48   going to like the root folder list screen and then going back into your inbox and then

01:49:51   they're there because it gets resorted.

01:49:53   So it's basically like a temporary mail data loss in the sense that you're getting new

01:49:57   mail and you don't know it which is a horrible bug and it's still there in 13.5 it's been

01:50:03   there since last like July or whatever it's still there I cannot believe they haven't

01:50:07   fixed it yet but other than that I don't have any major problems with iOS 13.

01:50:13   However I agree with you Catalina is still really just it's just sloppy like the the

01:50:19   things I thought would be annoying about it like all those all at the permissions dialogues

01:50:24   those have proven to be only mildly annoying with things I do you have an annoying first

01:50:29   few days as you have to approve everything for the first time at launches and then it's

01:50:33   mostly fine after that like you don't see a lot of those boxes too often the things

01:50:37   don't get in your way too often what annoys me about it is really common tasks now sometimes

01:50:45   just lag for no particular reason especially around open save dialogues I don't know what

01:50:51   this is I don't know if it's like some weird new iCloud thing or what but open save dialogues

01:50:58   are just slow hiding and showing apps sometimes is just slow like there's like a little half

01:51:04   second lag when you try to hide or show something or little half second lag when you display

01:51:08   an open save dialogue that wasn't there before in under what was the was last Mojave whatever

01:51:13   it was and that's like it feels stupid to have these amazing powerful computers these

01:51:21   days and to have an open save dialogue get noticeably slower between one release and

01:51:27   the next why this is a basic thing it just seems like they're incapable of shipping new

01:51:34   versions of Mac OS without significant regressions that often just kind of never get fixed because

01:51:39   they don't care about Mac OS enough to really invest heavily into this kind of stuff and

01:51:43   into QA to really avoid these bugs and fix them when they come up please Apple stop touching

01:51:48   it like stop for the love of God like I'm hoping although this is probably not going

01:51:54   to happen I'm hoping this summer given all the quarantine stuff I was hoping maybe they

01:52:00   would take this opportunity to say you know what we're gonna do another like refinement

01:52:03   year and push off some you know some of the big changes till next year whatever they're

01:52:08   probably not going to do that but I kind of hope they do because they really need to fix

01:52:14   a lot of the like little paper cut quality issues in Mac OS I don't know any Mac power

01:52:20   user who's excited about getting each new US new OS anymore like if Apple whatever they

01:52:25   want to do with iOS we don't care if Apple goes up there on their virtual stage whatever

01:52:31   it is and they say we're not going to do any new features on Mac OS this year we're just

01:52:35   going to you know improve quality etc not even bump the version number keep it up keep

01:52:40   you know make it make it Catalina dot six or whatever they would get so many people

01:52:45   at home cheering at that because it just needs it Mac OS does not need rapid pace change

01:52:53   it needs quality first and performance first and it doesn't have that Catalina is it made

01:53:00   a lot of things worse and the releases before Catalina weren't that great themselves it

01:53:05   needs some love there's no reason for the regressions it has there's no reason there's

01:53:10   no good reason why like open save dialogues and hiding and showing apps should be slow

01:53:15   and noticeably slower than they were one version ago that's that's like amateur hour and they

01:53:21   need to fix that so John tell me about iOS 13 poor Luke asked a question about iOS 13

01:53:28   has to hear about Catalina for an hour sorry Luke iOS 13 I think it's perfectly safe now

01:53:33   I've upgraded all my devices long ago I don't have any particular problems Marco's point

01:53:36   about the mail app being screwed up I'm sure there's other little apps that have those

01:53:40   problems but in general for the OS I wouldn't hesitate to tell someone to upgrade to it

01:53:44   Catalina you know obviously I have to run it on my Mac Pro I really haven't had any

01:53:50   problems with it on my Mac Pro it is with with one exception but for a while my Mac

01:53:56   Pro was a little bit creaky about shutting down you'd shut it down or restart it and

01:54:00   it would shut down or restart but it would take a long time and then when you when you

01:54:04   come when I would reboot it would bring up like the your your thing crashed and it would

01:54:08   give you a crash report and basically was like some job that's waiting for like the

01:54:11   last thing to die on the system after everything else is exited and it just wasn't dying and

01:54:15   it was timing out and I just kept sending those reports to Apple because you know you

01:54:19   have the send Apple button and the explanation was this seems to happen every time I shut

01:54:23   down or restart but I eventually got annoyed enough by it to you know exert the force of

01:54:27   Google on it and just search for a while and figure out other people having problems and

01:54:30   I an SMC reset seemed to fix it so I haven't seen it in a while but all the performance

01:54:36   problems you just mentioned are all those weird bugs or whatever I don't see any of

01:54:39   that but this is not the only machine you're running Catalina on I run Catalina on my work

01:54:43   laptop too which is the 2017 MacBook Pro and there I see all the things that Marco mentioned

01:54:48   the stalls the slowdowns the inexplicable things even today like it's actually impacting

01:54:53   like the functionality of the computer today I was in surprise you know a video conference

01:54:57   because we all are right and I had the thing zoomed to full screen because it's a small

01:55:02   laptop screen and I needed to see a document someone was sharing in some blurry little

01:55:06   things so zooming the app to full screen was the way to quickly get the document right

01:55:09   and I knew I was going to be up next to talk about a thing and I went to minimize the full

01:55:16   screen window so I could see some other document that was behind it that I needed to reference

01:55:20   when I was talking about what I was going to talk about and so I went up to the top

01:55:23   and I hit the cursor against the top of the screen and the little title bar came down

01:55:27   and hit the little green widget to un full screen the window and I should have known

01:55:33   because it's been like this forever but Catalina for whatever reason after I've been running

01:55:36   it for a while takes like 30 seconds to be responsive after I hit that button I hit the

01:55:43   button and then you just sit back and wait and just look at a stopwatch 30 seconds 60

01:55:48   seconds while this is happening everything is working people on the conference call are

01:55:51   saying John it's are you there are you are you talking into the mute or whatever and

01:55:56   there's literally nothing I can do I can't click on anything on the screen the computer

01:55:59   is totally unresponsive there is nothing happening on the screen I just gotta wait it out so

01:56:03   I had to sit there like a chump waiting for my window to go out of full screen mode for

01:56:09   a long time 30 seconds is not an exaggeration they thought I had fallen off the call or

01:56:13   I was talking into mute or had left the room or something but no I'm sitting there impotently

01:56:17   staring at my screen waiting for the computer to become responsive again and as soon as

01:56:21   oh finally the screen changed and my windows minimized I immediately hit unmute and had

01:56:24   to try to briefly explain what the hell just happened that didn't happen in Mojave all

01:56:29   that sort of slowness and pausing for any typical reasons and the open save stuff and

01:56:34   the moving files in the finder throwing up a beach ball which I did see a couple times

01:56:38   on my Mac Pro I haven't seen recently that's all happening in spades on my Mac Pro so sorry

01:56:44   Luke you just asked about iOS 13 it's fine but Catalina I would say hold off not just

01:56:48   because of all that stuff but because if there's any downsides to the current version of Mac

01:56:53   OS because the new one is ostensibly coming in less than a month like you know don't upgrade

01:57:00   my wife's iMac has never had Catalina on it and at this point probably never will I'm

01:57:04   gonna skip right over it because I just I'm not going to voluntarily do that upgrade because

01:57:07   her computer is working fine it also it seems to bring no benefit like it seems like you

01:57:12   go to Catalina for what exactly whatever you're going to it for if there's any good reason

01:57:18   I haven't found it I mean the new version of photos has some features that I like but

01:57:21   now that the photo library is on my iMac problem solved so I don't need to upgrade my wife's

01:57:25   iMac yeah it's on my Mac Pro sorry I don't know what's happening with the words today

01:57:31   finally somebody with a mildly inappropriate name on Twitter wrote what kind of backlash

01:57:35   do you think there will be if Apple has to drop boot camp compatibility in order to transition

01:57:40   the Mac to their own processors you know this was interesting for me because my initial

01:57:45   reaction is nobody's gonna care nobody runs boot camp but I can't tell if that's actually

01:57:49   my own biases because I don't think I've ever run boot camp I have run VMs I've like I used

01:57:55   to wear run VMware Fusion all day every day when I was doing work in Windows and so I

01:58:01   feel like less speedy virtual machines are potentially a bigger deal than not having

01:58:07   boot camp but that being said I wonder if it's my own bias and just because I didn't

01:58:12   use boot camp I assume nobody uses boot camp so in my opinion I actually don't think the

01:58:17   backlash will be that bad about boot camp I think it'll be worse about you know really

01:58:21   dramatically slowing down VMs but perhaps perhaps I'm being a little myopic Marco how

01:58:27   do you feel about this as someone who probably does not a lot of either except for maybe

01:58:32   Minecraft from time to time yeah I have used boot camp in the past I don't currently use

01:58:39   it because it just wasn't that interesting to me but you know people do use it it's a

01:58:45   thing you know it's I don't think it's a common thing I think the need for people to virtualize

01:58:51   Windows has decreased significantly over time and the people who still do need to do it

01:58:57   are probably largely doing it as virtualization not necessarily as a boot camp partition now

01:59:03   there are still a lot of people who do that for games and and for gamers the other other

01:59:08   solutions like virtualization are probably never going to be that great you know running

01:59:11   it unvirtualized straight up on boot camp directly against the hardware is going to

01:59:15   always be better for games so that that market you know they would have a problem with it

01:59:20   and I don't think there's any way in hell that boot camp make it through transition

01:59:25   like you know if Apple goes to arm on the Mac boot camp is not going with it there is

01:59:30   no way so so you know that will be a casualty of this transition however and whenever it

01:59:35   happens and I think Apple just gonna you know they're just gonna absorb that you're gonna

01:59:39   say you know what we're no longer catering to that market that wants to you know run

01:59:44   Windows and PC games on their on their Macs I don't think it's that big of a market to

01:59:48   begin with and I think most of those people with the exception of John Syracuse are finally

01:59:54   there just getting gaming PCs because I don't know anybody who does that nobody runs boot

01:59:58   camp I'm right here it's been all that time getting the windows under the next role that's

02:00:04   right I mean obviously I would be sad but like the sadness mostly doesn't come from

02:00:09   like boot camp has gone that's a secondary effect of them getting off x86 all that said

02:00:14   Windows runs on arm I know that doesn't help anybody because who runs the windows on arm

02:00:19   that's a wacky thing to do but that may be true today not necessarily true in the future

02:00:24   depending on how Intel's fortunes go and depending on how AMD's fortunes go like things could

02:00:29   things can change in you know a decade or two right the idea of booting into Windows

02:00:36   natively on an arm you know Apple arm derived custom chip is not ridiculous so while is

02:00:45   likely that boot camp as we know it today won't immediately make it through the arm

02:00:49   transition not impossible by the way because they can make boot camp and make it boot Windows

02:00:52   and arm like they could totally do that it's probably not that difficult in the grand scheme

02:00:58   of things just not very useful but say they didn't do that there's no reason boot camp

02:01:02   can't come back in the future when suddenly the entire personal computer industry is transitioned

02:01:07   to arm based CPUs right like if that happens it is an option it's an architecture it's

02:01:13   not it's not a question of you know boot camp itself I would be very upset if Apple I'd

02:01:16   be more upset if Apple stop supporting boot camp while still shipping x86 max that would

02:01:23   cause quite a lot of uproar because I think like the fact that it exists at all is really

02:01:28   important to yeah granted a small subset of people but it's like there's no reason for

02:01:32   you to drop this you're still shipping x86 max if you ship arm ones everyone kind of

02:01:35   knows all right well you know what can you do but I wouldn't be surprised to see it make

02:01:40   a comeback because the ability to buy Apple hardware and even if briefly or in special

02:01:45   circumstances boot a different operating system is a useful thing and I think Apple recognizes

02:01:49   that which is why boot camp continues to exist and be supported as far as it is right like

02:01:56   they they barely support it but they do support it it does drive my protos play XDR does understand

02:02:02   how to boot my weird you know Mac Pro that wasn't a glimmer in anybody's eye when boot

02:02:07   camp was created so I'm I'm mostly they continue to manually supported and if and when it goes

02:02:13   away with some switch to arm I don't think they'll be outraged if it's outrage it'll

02:02:18   be about switched arm not about boot camp all right thanks for sponsors this week Squarespace

02:02:23   and Linode and we will talk to you next week

02:02:26   Now the show is over they didn't even mean to begin cause it was accidental, oh it was

02:02:37   accidental John didn't do any research Marco and Casey wouldn't let him cause it was accidental,

02:02:47   it was accidental and you can find the show notes at ATP.FM and if you're into Twitter

02:02:58   you can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S so that's Casey List M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M anti Marco

02:03:10   Harmon S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-Q-S-A it's accidental, they didn't mean to accidental, tech podcast

02:03:26   so long.

02:03:28   How's everybody holding up?

02:03:31   Mostly fine tomorrow is Declan's preschool graduation parade where all the children and

02:03:37   parents are in cars driving through the preschool parking lot waving at the teachers and not

02:03:43   to completely end the show on a depressing note but it really bums me out something awful

02:03:49   that this is the end of his preschool experience because I mean ultimately preschool doesn't

02:03:52   friggin matter but to him it's the only thing that matters and it really bums me out that

02:03:58   it was like one day he left preschool thinking he would be back in a week or two and in retrospect

02:04:03   it was obvious he wasn't coming back but at the time we didn't know it and so he just

02:04:07   walked out of preschool and never walked back in and that's it for him and you know literally

02:04:12   tonight Aaron registered him for kindergarten online which classically in the area we live

02:04:17   that's done in person and there's like this big hoopla about it and I think you like I

02:04:21   believe having never done this you like get to go through the school and probably meet

02:04:25   the kindergarten teachers and it's this whole big grand thing and you know that didn't get

02:04:30   to happen.

02:04:32   I'm extremely skeptical that he'll even go to kindergarten in the fall which also really

02:04:37   really bums me out I don't know like in on the surface we're fine like we're we still

02:04:43   have a roof over our heads everyone's still healthy we mostly still like each other but

02:04:49   oh man it's just some of this I feel like I'm seeing what's coming and I'm seeing it

02:04:54   be more of the same and it's really bumming me out a lot.

02:04:58   Yeah I don't I mean I'm mostly doing okay but I'm with you in the sense that like I

02:05:04   don't really know how long this is going to last I think everyone is going to try to get

02:05:08   back to normal a little too quickly and it's gonna bite us in the ass and and we're gonna

02:05:15   have to you know go back into our holes for a while until until we have probably widespread

02:05:20   vaccination which is not imminent so I don't know how this is gonna go but I personally

02:05:26   I'm doing mostly okay I do miss people you know like I'm a people person I actually like

02:05:34   being out other people I'm mostly an extrovert I love going out to restaurants and stuff

02:05:39   and just like seeing people talking to people that's one of the reasons why like I am the

02:05:44   like shopper the grocery shopper in the family partly because I just like going out and doing

02:05:48   stuff like I just like it I like driving around to a handful of stores and getting stuff and

02:05:52   saying hi to the beer guy in the good store and everything I just I like that stuff and

02:05:56   to not have that hurts you know but relative to other people who have a much harder situation

02:06:03   it's it's hard to complain about my situation but yeah it's not that isn't to say that I

02:06:07   like everything about my situation it's just you know it's in the grand scheme of things

02:06:11   I'm I'm fine John how about you I'm very well equipped to live this kind of life I'm an

02:06:19   introvert for sure all right but it's more difficult than I would have predicted not

02:06:25   because of me personally but it's stuff that you just mentioned Casey so I'm an introvert

02:06:28   I have no problem being in the house all day or whatever right but the idea that everyone

02:06:33   else in my family will also be forced to do the thing that they may not be inclined to

02:06:37   do that's bad like it's bad because I feel bad for them missing out on experiences I

02:06:41   worry about what their next school year is gonna be like I worry about are they getting

02:06:45   what they should be getting out of whatever developmental stages they're in like all this

02:06:48   that stuff and that that affects me like even you know it's like you know it's fine for

02:06:54   me to be okay with it but it's I'm not in this alone and so I spend a lot of time worrying

02:06:58   about all that type of stuff and then you know of course if they're for the people who

02:07:03   aren't accustomed to that or you know having problems with it we're all in the same house

02:07:07   then people get grumpy and it's just like go a little stir-crazy and then then people

02:07:12   want to yeah you know rebel against the strictures which is also not a good thing so you got

02:07:17   to talk people off those ledges and it's just you know it's it is a more fraught situation

02:07:21   and then during all the time and I mentioned this on whatever I talked about last like

02:07:26   during all this time I am fortunate enough to continue to be employed which is excellent

02:07:30   I endorse the idea of continuing to have an income but it means that I haven't had a day

02:07:35   off I've just been working right and so all the other things that I mentioned boohoo me

02:07:41   you still get a job but it means I do have to continue working and so I actually I put

02:07:46   in today for vacation which was like because normally you know summer I had a bunch of

02:07:51   vacation schedules I'd vote you know I know I save all my vacation days during the year

02:07:55   to spend them in the summer mostly because that's when I like to be out and about but

02:07:59   a whole my vacation got canceled and so I didn't you know I don't have any things and

02:08:03   and it occurred to me like last week like I should take a vacation which I don't understand

02:08:08   what that would even be it mostly just means not quote-unquote going to work which means

02:08:12   not you know logging on to work and working remotely but I feel like I need a vacation

02:08:19   I know you know it's nice to be able to be in that situation but anyway I put in a vacation

02:08:24   I am taking a vacation on WWDC week as I always do even though I'm not actually going to WWDC

02:08:29   but you know what not having to work and just being able to veg out in front of a live stream

02:08:35   over the heck Apple's gonna do and then talk about it on a podcast that's gonna be my vacation

02:08:40   so like one of the things I've seen a lot of people mention is like what are we even

02:08:44   looking forward to now I personally have something to look forward to along with all my fretting

02:08:48   about you know next school year and kids going stir crazy in the summer and all their camps

02:08:52   being canceled and everything I'm looking forward to my vacation and I'm looking forward

02:08:56   to WWDC and it'll be weird and we'll still have all the kind of same stresses that we

02:09:00   have but I'm hoping that we'll get fun announcements and I'll get to watch them on my big fancy

02:09:07   Mac Pro

02:09:07   [BEEPING]