378: Whale Quench


00:00:00   All right, I'm going to use my sweet Rube Goldberg to Dropbox upload right now. Get ready.

00:00:05   All right, don't forget to check your little LED before you go to sleep.

00:00:08   I will because it's going to shine right in my face.

00:00:10   But your next innovation is going to be a black piece of tape to cover the LED that's shining in your face.

00:00:16   You know, I'd like to file a complaint to the two of you and you did not know this was coming.

00:00:26   Right now as we speak, there is something that Marco and I should be watching on YouTube right now.

00:00:32   Right now there's a replay of a jam band's concert from last year. Want to guess which one, Marco?

00:00:39   Well, I don't know. Fish did theirs last night and I recorded it.

00:00:43   So I don't know what you're talking about, but I'm pretty sure it's not Fish, so it must not be a jam band.

00:00:48   Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Dave Matthews Band had last week, this week, and I think for

00:00:54   the next several Wednesdays are replaying concert videos on YouTube and they're broadcasting them live.

00:00:59   Last week I recorded it live using YouTube DL and then realized the next morning I didn't have to

00:01:05   bother with that. I could just download it after the fact, you know, because sometimes on YouTube

00:01:09   I think you can make things live and then they don't get saved, so to speak. I'm sure there's

00:01:14   better terminology for this. And in the case of the Dave Matthews one, it was perfectly up and

00:01:19   available the next morning. But yeah, I think I might have to skip the show from now on because

00:01:24   I've got more important things to do. Yeah, it's a good thing that, you know, we would never possibly

00:01:29   download an HLS stream and be able to preserve it forever in our Plex libraries. So we definitely

00:01:34   have to watch these things live as your jam band does what my jam band's been doing for quite some

00:01:39   time. You know, that's just mean. You're not wrong, you're not wrong, but it's just plain mean, man.

00:01:45   Marco's gonna add it to his definition of a jam band. Does not allow downloading of high quality

00:01:51   people's knowledge in band. It really, you know, I do think I probably shouldn't say this out loud,

00:01:57   but here we go. I do think not irregularly about the epiphany that either you or I might have been

00:02:03   me had several months ago when I realized that my definition of jam band, your definition of jam

00:02:09   band are very, very different. And to recap, I think it's fair to say, and correct me, but your

00:02:14   definition of jam band is kind of the style of music and less about whether or not it's improvised.

00:02:20   And to me, I don't really care what style of music it is. It's just whether or not it's improvisation.

00:02:24   And we can get into another argument for the 95th time over who was right. It ultimately doesn't

00:02:28   matter, but it really made me feel better. Yeah. Mine, yours is more, yours is a more literal

00:02:34   interpretation of like a jam band is like a band that jams. It's almost like, like if, like if your

00:02:40   definition of country western music could not be made in New York city, like if by definition,

00:02:44   if somebody, if a country singer came to New York city and made music here, it would not be country

00:02:48   western music. Like that's, that's kind of like your definition of jam band is like a band that

00:02:52   jams. Like it's very literal. And I think many people share that definition, but you know, from

00:02:57   the point of view of like, if you are a, like say a Sirius XM jam band station that totally exists,

00:03:03   that's a genre of music that you play. It's not, Dave Matthews is on, if I'm not mistaken,

00:03:07   I think, I don't know. I haven't had serious in a long time, but they might be, the point is like

00:03:11   a jam band is not any band that jams. It is a musical genre that happens to include a lot of

00:03:17   jamming, but that doesn't necessarily mean that any band that jams has suddenly become a jam band.

00:03:21   Yeah. And I mean, again, we've, we've been around the block a few times on this issue,

00:03:25   but I, it would, it would, it would genuinely annoy me to no end when you would just fluff off,

00:03:30   Oh, Dave Matthews isn't a jam band, Dave Matthews isn't a jam band, this is not a jam band. And,

00:03:33   and I feel like my world has been righted by realizing that we're just having two different

00:03:38   arguments at the same time. Like so many arguments in modern culture. We're never going to come to a

00:03:44   resolution because we're totally arguing different things. I mean, at least we're not moving the

00:03:50   goalposts like Jon always does. Am I right? So let's start with follow up. What you were talking

00:03:55   about was exactly that you have two different sets of goalposts. And that's why you couldn't,

00:03:58   you couldn't fare where the disagreement was. Here I am quietly not liking either band. So

00:04:02   who's doing it right here? Yeah, I guess, I guess you win again. All right, let's start with some

00:04:07   follow up first and clearly most importantly to everyone involved with the show. My garage door

00:04:13   project monitor, my garage door monitor project is complete. So Casey, is your garage door open or

00:04:18   closed right now? Well, I would have to look at the app right now because I'm in the other room.

00:04:23   I'm in the office and not the bedroom. Does your window have line of sight on your garage door?

00:04:31   Could you peek? No, it does not. I don't know if you set me up for that on purpose or not,

00:04:35   Marco. Either way, it was well done. Wait, wait, wait, I've got it. Can you have a camera that

00:04:40   looks at the light? Yeah, that's what I should do. There we go. I can get the new Raspberry Pi camera

00:04:44   that's like 50 bucks or something like that. Super high res and it's totally overkill for what I

00:04:49   would need this for. And all it has is a view of this tiny LED on your nightstand. Right.

00:04:52   Oh goodness, that's hilarious. But anyways, the project is complete. Don't ask me to show you what

00:05:01   most of the components look like because there's not any real good mounting set up for any of this

00:05:05   stuff. But it does work. It is complete. There's an LED that is in my bedroom that is illuminated

00:05:11   when the garage door is open and it is extinguished when the garage door is closed. And I am very

00:05:16   excited about this. And for phase one, it is complete. Phase two, which I haven't started yet,

00:05:23   is, and I think we discussed this last time, is to get a relay, well I have a relay, but to get that

00:05:28   relay working such that I can hypothetically raise and lower the door via the Raspberry Pi as well as

00:05:35   just monitor whether or not it's open or closed. But I think most important of all, we need to

00:05:40   celebrate the fact that I was right and John was wrong and my read switch, my window,

00:05:46   it's not necessarily specifically designed for a window, but my close proximity only read switch

00:05:53   that John had thought would never possibly work did indeed work. Did you mention goal

00:05:58   post moving earlier? Because it sounds to me like what you're describing is not what happened. At

00:06:03   this point, Marco can add the diddle do music and play back what I said, which I believe was

00:06:08   something like, I think you might have too much confidence in your switch. Not that it would never

00:06:13   work, which is what you just said. So, so much for correctly identifying the goal post movers.

00:06:19   I'm glad it worked out for you. I was pessimistic. I expressed doubt, but it looks like it worked out

00:06:26   well. So yeah, so I'm excited about that. And you can see in my Insta stories, you can see that I

00:06:32   was soldering today, which I'm still just hilariously bad at, but nevertheless, I am,

00:06:37   I am good enough to make a successful solder, even though it is hideous to look at and yeah,

00:06:42   so it's all working. I'm really excited about that. And I don't know if I'm going to be able

00:06:45   to do any more work on this before next week's show, but hopefully at some point, I'll be able

00:06:49   to start toying with that relay and see if I can see when I get that working. So I, I will take my

00:06:54   victory lap right now. Moving on. I was looking through the mentions for the ATP Twitter account,

00:07:00   which I try to keep up with and I do a terrible job of, and somebody wrote something that at a

00:07:06   glance, I almost skipped over it because I was like, I don't care about this. And then I went

00:07:09   back and was wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. So Derek Van Ittersum wrote, you can use Synology's

00:07:14   cloud sync to take a folder on the Synology and sync that with your Dropbox files. Yeah,

00:07:19   I knew that. Okay, whatever. That folder can also be synced with Synology drive. What? Thus,

00:07:24   Dropbox can sync, Dropbox synced files on all devices with no Dropbox app installed anywhere.

00:07:30   Hold on a second. Tell me more. So it took me a minute to parse what Derek was saying,

00:07:36   but then I realized he was basically solving my problem for me. And I feel so dumb for not having

00:07:41   thought of this already. So there's an app on the Synology. So this is a, you know, Synology

00:07:45   package that runs on the Synology called Cloud Sync. And I'd been running it for a long time

00:07:49   to get a local backup of my Dropbox. And it would just act as a Dropbox client. It would sync all

00:07:55   of my files, you know, from Dropbox down to the Synology. And again, I just used it as a one way,

00:08:00   like replicator. That's not the only way you can use it. That's just how I was using it.

00:08:04   Meanwhile, and off to the side, there's also Synology drive, which,

00:08:08   although it has the same problem as Apple TV, where there's one phrase that means like 95

00:08:14   different things. One of the things Synology drive means is they're like pseudo Dropbox like thing,

00:08:20   where the Synology is the one source of truth for all of your data and all of your other devices can

00:08:25   hook up to that Synology. And it acts basically like Dropbox. You know, it has a client app,

00:08:30   everything stays in sync, et cetera, et cetera. But it had never occurred to me to bring the two

00:08:35   together. So what Derek is saying is I could and have, I could take the Synology Cloud Sync

00:08:42   server side stuff and have it save and replicate my Dropbox into my Synology drive root folder.

00:08:51   Am I making any sense, gentlemen? Are you with me? Totally. Yeah. It sounds like a very casey

00:08:55   solution to a problem because it's overly complicated. It solves a problem that doesn't

00:09:00   need to be solved that badly. And it involves a Synology. And it adds potential additional problems.

00:09:05   Remember we talked about this way back when of like, you know, in general, putting a sync

00:09:10   folder inside a sync folder inside a sync folder, like it doesn't lead to happiness.

00:09:14   Most services won't allow you to do it. Like Dropbox won't let you put like

00:09:17   Microsoft OneDrive inside it or vice versa. Like they have, they have things to try to

00:09:21   stop you from doing it, but Synology is more laissez-faire and you can do it, but I would really,

00:09:27   I mean, maybe two layers deep, maybe that'll be mostly okay, but I wouldn't go three or four

00:09:32   layers deep. That's a little bit sketchy. And of course, you know, I don't, you do have to have

00:09:38   something that syncs with Dropbox. So presumably is that Dropbox software or is that something using

00:09:42   some kind of public Dropbox API? Do you know the, the origin of the Synology Dropbox app?

00:09:47   You know, I don't, uh, I would assume they're just using public Dropbox APIs, but I certainly do not

00:09:53   know that for a fact. They're scraping HTML from the web. You don't want to know how it works. It

00:09:59   works. It's fine. Just close your eyes. Well, and to that end, I did do this earlier today when I

00:10:04   saw this tweet and was like, wait, what? Oh, and so I tried it and at a glance in the last hour or

00:10:11   two, since I've tried it, it seems to be working just fine. You know, famous last words, knock on

00:10:15   wood, et cetera. And so just for a test, I don't know if either of you guys happen to be sitting

00:10:19   at your computers. When I did this, I put a different audio file into our shared Dropbox folder,

00:10:26   where we share our recordings from these episodes. And I did that using the Dropbox web app. And sure

00:10:33   enough, you know, maybe 15, 30 seconds after it had uploaded using the web app, it ended back up

00:10:39   on the same computer where it, from where it started. But inside, you know, my Synology Drive

00:10:43   Dropbox folder, and then I deleted it locally using Finder and almost instantaneously it was

00:10:49   removed from the Dropbox web app. So at a glance, this is working. And as someone who doesn't really

00:10:56   use Dropbox anymore, except to share files with you guys and with Mike and a couple of other random

00:11:00   scenarios here and there, I'm actually really, really excited and pleased with this because I

00:11:04   don't think I'm going to be stressing it very much. And it seems to basically offload all the ickiness

00:11:10   of Dropbox onto the Synology, which for me for now seems good. So if you're in this weird scenario

00:11:17   where you have a Synology, you're using Synology Drive, you too, all 12 of us, dozens of us maybe,

00:11:24   we can benefit from this weird but awesome setup. The one thing I would watch for is for like when

00:11:29   you're nesting multiple servers like this is situations with very large files that actually

00:11:34   take an appreciable amount of time to transfer. That may not be much of an issue because you have

00:11:38   such a fast internet connection and so on and so forth. But like, when it's just one service,

00:11:42   it can sort of say, I'm not going to make the file look like it's done until I know that it's done.

00:11:47   But when you've got two services, the outermost service may think, oh, a new file has appeared.

00:11:53   And as far as it can tell, it's all set to go. So let me make it appear on Casey's Mac. But really,

00:11:58   Dropbox is still syncing it in. And anyway, that's potential dangers of nesting services inside each

00:12:05   other. But if you're just very careful and do things very slowly and are very kind to the

00:12:09   software and you're just copying one file and you wait a long time and don't yank it out from under,

00:12:13   it'll probably be fine. We'll see. I mean, when Marco starts sending me angry text messages

00:12:18   wondering where my file is. Yeah, truncated audio files. And I would say like, don't put your Git

00:12:22   repo in there or anything. No, no, no, certainly not. I mean, how really like how is this incredibly

00:12:27   convoluted pile of hacks better than just using iCloud drive? Oh, I'm all in on iCloud drive. I'm

00:12:32   ready. Because we're hoping that the files won't just disappear one day or just fail to sync for

00:12:37   some inexplicable reason. That's the I think in this scenario, you'd get an error if something

00:12:42   failed to sync and the chances of files just disappearing or lower. Yeah, I don't know. But

00:12:47   like the more I thought about this problem, the more I've thought, let's just try iCloud drive and

00:12:50   just see how it goes. Yes, I'm ready. You know, I don't like having to run these persistent demon

00:12:56   services on my computers all the time, unless really necessary and unless they're really

00:13:00   providing a strong benefit. No matter what we do, iCloud is already running. iCloud drive is already

00:13:06   there already syncing. It's already on every device that we use. It's already running anyway,

00:13:12   no matter what we do. So it's like we're already paying the price for the usage of iCloud drive

00:13:16   here. We might as well use it. And then I can get rid of all this other crap software. But there's

00:13:21   more price the price of, hey, it didn't sync my file when it's just running and it's not working

00:13:26   correctly, but we're not using it. We don't pay that price. So yes, you're right that we have the

00:13:29   overhead of doing something. But if we never actually use it to do anything, we don't, you

00:13:33   know, we're not asking it to actually run. And also we don't aren't exposed to the bugs. I'm still

00:13:38   in favor of SFTP. That is still my favorable solution to this. Because we all have SFTP

00:13:44   clients, and they don't run all the time. And you know, if you really want something that's mounted,

00:13:48   it's really easy to mount an SFTP driver, whatever. Well, for the record, Marco, I am all in on iCloud

00:13:54   drive, or at least giving it a shot if nothing else. So you tell me when you're ready. Why don't

00:13:58   you just use iCloud drive and then have that sync to your Synology and then have that sync to an

00:14:02   SFTP server. Perfect. Nothing could go wrong. All right, John, tell me about RSI and voice control,

00:14:08   if you please. We had further discussion on RSI in the last episodes. Ask ATP, we've talked about

00:14:15   in many episodes in the past. And we got a couple of interesting examples of solutions to RSI.

00:14:22   One is from, oh, I got to do these names. I got to practice that. You're going to read them.

00:14:26   I know Miyagawa. I just did not used to pronouncing his first name. And I think I got

00:14:33   his last name right. Anyway. Tatsuhiko Miyagawa has an example of someone using voice control

00:14:43   to program in Perl, which, ha ha, yes, we all know. It's got all those funny punctuation symbols and

00:14:47   everything like that. The programmer is Emily Shea, and there's a video of her at a conference

00:14:53   explaining, here's how I use voice control to be a programmer, which you would think A, is going to

00:14:58   be hard no matter what, because programming in general is filled with all sorts of symbols and

00:15:02   things you have to do that aren't natural. And B, Perl, oh my goodness. And of course, there's a

00:15:06   couple of humorous videos out there on the web of showing how terribly unmodified voice control

00:15:14   software deals with Perl in particular. I think she uses one of them in the presentation. I don't

00:15:18   know if this is the original funny, you know, haha, trying to do voice control for Perl, but it is one

00:15:22   of them. So I recommend everybody check that out if you want to see what's possible. It sounds funny.

00:15:29   It sounds a little bit humorous when you watch it, but you can't help but be impressed. It's kind of

00:15:33   like a Casey setup only with an actual purpose, right? So the purpose is, the purpose is, hey,

00:15:38   this is a health issue. I need to find a way to do my job without using my body the way I was using

00:15:43   it. So let me use my skill as a programmer to fashion something from bits and pieces,

00:15:49   not a raspberry pie, but the software equivalent essentially, to make a setup where I can

00:15:53   effectively program Perl and use my computer. And then the second one is Philip Brokum, who has a

00:16:01   video showing his hands-free technique of using his computer. So not just like, hey, I'm not typing

00:16:07   when I'm programming, but like entirely hands-free as in I'm not using a mouse or a track pad. I'm

00:16:12   not touching the keyboard. And you might think, how can you use a computer like that? Sure, you

00:16:17   can use voice for the text input, but what about everything else? Well, the answer is in this video.

00:16:22   He says he's been a developer for 15 years, 10 of which have been hands-free. You should definitely

00:16:28   check it out. And he sent this because he just wanted people to know that the idea of don't use

00:16:33   your hands, like the humorous advice that I said that a doctor might offer you if you're having

00:16:38   some problem is actually possible if you're willing to put in the effort. One of the examples

00:16:42   I was super impressed with is like it shows the, you know, the strengths of voice input. We all

00:16:47   kind of know most people can speak better than they can type. It doesn't mean they can speak

00:16:54   faster than they can type, but most people, if it's just like an English sentence or, you know,

00:16:59   prose sentence, they can rattle that off pretty well. And the voice input software, if it's good,

00:17:05   will make sure there's a single space between every word, every word is spelled correctly,

00:17:09   like all that stuff. And you won't have typos. You might have spicos where, you know, homonyms

00:17:14   and end up in the sentence or whatever, but you can, you know, most people can rattle off a

00:17:19   sentence faster than they can type. So add to that reasonably efficient use of the rest of the

00:17:24   computer. And he does a little demo at one point in this where he's like, I'm going to take a

00:17:27   picture of myself and then email it to myself, which is a silly exercise, but it does demonstrate

00:17:32   all the things you would imagine would be such a pain to do with voice control. Take a picture

00:17:35   of yourself with your computer and then mail it to yourself. Well, now you've got a file and you're

00:17:39   dragging things around and you've got to open your mail app and you've got to add the attachment. And

00:17:42   then, you know, he writes a line of text into the message. He does that task of take a picture of

00:17:49   myself and email it to myself in an email with one sentence in it. I think just as fast as any person

00:17:54   using both of their hands could do it. Maybe not faster, but I think just as fast. It's a very

00:17:59   impressive demo. So check both of these out. If you want to see someone program pro by voice,

00:18:03   check out the first one. And if you want to see someone do look, look ma, no hands, try the second

00:18:08   one. What is this pedal that he's using? Cause I'm only now watching this for the first time and I'm

00:18:12   not listening to it. So what is the pedal for? It's a three button pedal, basically. It's got a

00:18:17   big fat middle part of the two parts on the side that you can kind of feel. And you know, he's just

00:18:21   got the buttons program to do various things. He's got the middle button, the middle part program to

00:18:26   be mouse click the right one program to be right click and the left one program to be turn on and

00:18:30   off the mouse tracking thing. Huh? Well, and it's tracking using his head, I guess, just from the

00:18:35   looks of it. It's tracking using the little reflective thing on the end of his headset mic.

00:18:39   He's got to have the headset mic for, you know, for good voice control. And all he does is stick

00:18:43   a little reflective sticker to the end of the headset mic. Eh, voila. Huh? That is wild. Look

00:18:47   out, look how well it uses the mouse. Like he's targeting the mouse better than most like average

00:18:52   people I see trying to use the mouse like they're driving a tiny arrow shaped car along the screen.

00:18:57   No, this is, this is really wild. I cannot believe how well and how efficient he is at doing this

00:19:05   stuff. Uh, and the reason you want to watch the Emily Shea video is because, uh, one, one facet

00:19:09   of it to spoil it is that, uh, there is a different set of words for letters. You know, what is the,

00:19:15   uh, the one called, uh, is it like NATO radio something or other one where it's like X-ray,

00:19:20   Foxtrot, all that business, right? Yeah. The phonetic alphabet, as she points out in the video,

00:19:26   a lot of those words are multi-syllabic. And so it's kind of a mouthful if you get the, you know,

00:19:30   they're multi-syllabic for a reason, but if when you're talking directly into a headset microphone

00:19:34   for your computer, it can get a little bit cumbersome. So she's got a second set of words

00:19:38   for letters in the alphabet. For those who don't know, this is like, if you had to say the letters

00:19:42   of the alphabet over a slightly unreliable connection, um, like if you're trying to,

00:19:46   for example, if you're old and remember the telephone system before the age of digital

00:19:51   phones and cell phones, they're very bad at conveying speech. So if you're trying to spell

00:19:54   your name over the phone and you say B and they're like, did you say P or E or G like,

00:20:00   they all kind of sound the same over, you know, a 22 kilohertz connection with some noise.

00:20:04   And so it's like B as in boy, right? You do that thing. Well, there's a canonical set of those that

00:20:10   are developed for NATO or the military where X is X-ray and F is Foxtrot. Anyway, that's what we're

00:20:15   talking about. And so she has a different set of them that are shorter. Uh, she also uses VI. So

00:20:22   to exit VI, exit VI while saving, she has to say WQ, but instead of WQ, the word for W is whale

00:20:32   and the word for Q is quench. So she says whale quench. Like if you just listen to it, if you just

00:20:38   listen to a transcription of her using her computer, it sounds like ridiculous gibberish,

00:20:43   but it's amazing to watch. So recommend both videos. So John, if you ever wondered what it

00:20:48   sounds like to Mark when I, when you talk about destiny from the way you described this video,

00:20:52   it sounds exactly like that whale quench could totally be an exotic weapon in destiny. Three

00:20:57   bungee call me. I rest my case. The area of RSI and accessibility and, and similar things where

00:21:05   like there are kind of unusual methods to interact with a computer is always fascinating because to

00:21:10   people who are not accustomed to doing these things, it seems impossible or it seems like

00:21:14   magic or it seems like superhuman when people can operate their computer or their devices with these

00:21:21   input methods that like we don't use most of the time or that we don't even know exist.

00:21:25   But the reality is like every way that we interact with a computer was new to us at some point,

00:21:31   you know, the keyboard and mouse were new to all of us at one point. At first, when we got,

00:21:36   when we were first learning how to use computers and use keyboards and mice, we were inefficient

00:21:40   with them. And I'm sure seeing someone who was an expert typist, you know, blast away the hundred

00:21:46   words per minute on their typewriter or on their keyboard. That seemed like magic to us. If we,

00:21:51   if we didn't know anything about it, if we hadn't used it before, but like that, and like everything

00:21:55   else, it's possible to learn these things. And it's amazing, like what the difference between like,

00:22:02   when you are totally unfamiliar with a task and someone who is a pro at it and like whose brains

00:22:08   have wired those pathways to be really good at something. There's a huge difference. And

00:22:13   our brains are capable of so many things that we don't realize they're capable of with practice and

00:22:21   with time investment. The reality is you can probably be super fast at lots of these different

00:22:26   methods that we don't think of. It just takes time. Just like, you know, on a smaller scale,

00:22:30   my, my using a trackpad on the left and teaching my left hand as a right-handed person, teaching

00:22:35   my left hand how to use a trackpad kind of in parallel with also using the mouse in my right

00:22:39   hand. That felt really weird for the first, as I said, week or so maybe. And now it doesn't anymore.

00:22:45   And now it's just something I do. And my left hand is totally fine. I occasionally mention this

00:22:50   and I hear from people saying, how can you do that? I don't know how it's possible. And I say,

00:22:53   yeah, well try it. It is, it feels weird at first and you build it up and you get faster and you get

00:22:58   better and it doesn't take, it isn't, it isn't that hard. And something like this where, you know,

00:23:02   to, you know, most of us like, you know, typical computer users using keyboards and mice and

00:23:06   trackpads, it seems magical that somebody can use voice control software or other input devices.

00:23:13   Similar, like if you've ever, if you've ever seen a visually impaired person use voiceover,

00:23:16   who's really good at it, it's a similar thing. Like it really does seem superhuman to us

00:23:21   because we, we can't perceive using this tool that way, but that's only because we are not

00:23:26   accustomed to it. We are not familiar with it. We aren't, we aren't, we aren't already experts with

00:23:30   it. We're not using it every day, but that isn't to say that we can't learn. Yeah. The interesting

00:23:35   thing about a lot of these input methods demonstrated in this video is some of them

00:23:39   are not necessarily any less efficient than the sort of default ones that we use. Most of the time,

00:23:45   the reason these input methods demonstrated here aren't in widespread use is either because they

00:23:52   have some attribute of them that's annoying. So for example, controlling the cursor with a little

00:23:58   reflective thing, that means you have to have something strapped to your head. And that is way

00:24:02   more of a burden, just like it's annoying to have a thing strapped to your head, like just in terms

00:24:06   of mass adoption, right? Convincing people to put on a headset to use a computer versus you sit down

00:24:10   and put your hand on a thing, right? There's a reason the mouse, you know, is the superior

00:24:15   solution in that scenario. But practically speaking, if you can get over that very tiny

00:24:19   hurdle of you put a thing on your head, I'm not entirely convinced that that system is less

00:24:24   efficient than using a mouse with your hand or that people would be worse at it because we're

00:24:28   kind of used to like pointing our heads at things that we're interested in. And the second thing is,

00:24:32   a lot of these input solutions require computing power that didn't exist at the time where we were

00:24:37   sort of laying the foundation for the current, you know, de facto set of input methods, right?

00:24:42   And we're kind of stuck with things that one, like the reason we have the keyboard looking the way it

00:24:45   does is because of typewriters, right? It's, you know, so a lot of these decisions take a long time

00:24:49   to change. And so in the beginning of computing, the idea that you could put a tiny little piece

00:24:53   of reflective tape to the end of a headset mic or the idea of a headset mic at all, for, you know,

00:24:59   home computer users and that your computer could visually track it no matter where your head was,

00:25:02   it's just science fiction. But today, no problem, right? And so it's going to take a while for

00:25:08   the realization that technology can do so much more than it used to to catch up with

00:25:13   the evolution of our input methods. And arguably, the iPhone is an example of that. Touch input has

00:25:18   been around, but it took a while for the technology to get to the point where touch input can finally

00:25:22   be good. Same thing could be true of, you know, looking at things or pointing your head at things.

00:25:29   And the feet are obviously very often wasted because pedals are cool. But, you know,

00:25:33   that's another situation where the hurdle is now I have to get a thing and sit under my desk, and

00:25:37   it's on the floor, and it's more expensive. There's all sorts of hurdles besides efficiency. But I'm

00:25:40   saying if you get over all of those, it's like, yeah, but of course, using your head into foot

00:25:45   pedals less efficient than a mouse, is it? I'm not entirely sure. It's weirder. People aren't used to

00:25:49   it. There are barriers to entry that don't exist. It takes more sophisticated computing and software.

00:25:54   It's not built into the US. It's all sorts of things stacked against it. But once you get once

00:25:58   you sort of reach cruising speed, it might be just as good or even better in some scenarios. Same deal

00:26:03   with voice recognition, huge technical hurdle. But once you get over it, it's, you know, it is better

00:26:09   than typing for a lot of scenarios. And I say this to somebody, I didn't mention this in the last time

00:26:13   we talked about RSI, but the time before that I think I did. When I was writing, you know, 40,000

00:26:18   word Mac OS X reviews for Ars Technica, for a large portion of them, I dictated them. Right? I

00:26:23   mean, granted, it's pros, it's easier. I'm not programming, right? But yeah, I dictate them. That

00:26:27   saved me from typing. And it's weird to do and takes a while to get used to. And unfortunately,

00:26:32   the software used in at least one of these videos is Dragon Dictate for Mac. They don't even make it

00:26:36   for Mac anymore, which is kind of crappy. But yeah, I bought a piece of software and I talked

00:26:41   to my computer. And it was weird at the beginning, but eventually got used to it. And it's kind of

00:26:46   relaxing to be able to just sort of sit back in your chair and ruminate and fire off a sentence

00:26:50   and then change your mind. And you know, and all without touching anything. Your hands aren't doing

00:26:54   anything. So that was an answer to a question a lot of people asked, have you used voice recognition?

00:26:59   Yes, I have. Haven't used it to program Perl, but I've definitely used it to write pros.

00:27:04   We are sponsored this week by Notion. For 10% off your team's plan, head over to notion.com/ATP.

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00:28:30   sponsoring our show.

00:28:31   Was it this week or last week? I want to say it was last week that we had an interesting podcast

00:28:41   come out. Our friend Federico Vittucci interviewed Craig Federighi of Apple, mostly about iPad and

00:28:48   the new cursor stuff and iPad. And the interview is, I don't know, 20, 30 minutes, something like

00:28:53   that. And I really enjoyed it. But apparently, Jon, you need to do your victory lap now about

00:28:59   Destiny. So let's just get it over with. It's not a victory lap. I'm just pointing out something

00:29:03   interesting from the interview. Yes, it's a good interview. You should check it out. Like, this is

00:29:06   exactly who you'd want to hear talk about that, Vittucci, the hardcore iPad user, and Craig Federighi,

00:29:11   who's basically in charge of software, or at least in charge of iPadOS at Apple, talking about the

00:29:16   evolution of those two things. So definitely check it out. A couple of things jumped out of me in the

00:29:21   interview I thought were cool. One, and we'll put time-stamped links in the show notes for these,

00:29:26   was a bit where Craig talks about the logic they added for the thing where when you move the cursor

00:29:32   on iPadOS, it morphs into the button. It changes from the little circle to be just highlighting the

00:29:40   button if you get near the button. And he talks about how they did some essentially client-side

00:29:46   prediction to say if you flicked your finger across the trackpad on your iPad Pro, if you

00:29:53   flicked your finger kind of in the direction where a button was and it looks to them like

00:29:58   if allowed to continue at this trajectory, at this velocity, it would land more or less where

00:30:04   the button is. They would do that for you and snap your cursor to the button that it looked like you

00:30:09   were kind of flicking towards. So you're basically making a gesture, and instead of them requiring

00:30:13   you to steer, carefully steer the little cursor there, they would snap the cursor to the button

00:30:18   if you have that little cursor changing shape mode on. And he describes it in a little bit more

00:30:24   detail here, but basically what he's describing is almost word for word a match for portions of

00:30:31   the implementation of Aim Assist in Destiny. So Destiny is a first-person shooter. You may have

00:30:37   heard of it on this program. It's available for personal computers and consoles, and on consoles,

00:30:42   people use controllers, which just have little thumb sticks, and it's actually pretty hard to

00:30:47   precisely control where a little aiming point on the screen is with just your thumb on a thumb

00:30:52   stick. There's not much range of motion, and it's not absolute. It's relative, right? So it's not

00:30:58   like when you put the cursor to the far left, it hits the left-ended screen, and the far right

00:31:01   hits the right, and you're kind of driving the cursor. So there's all sorts of limitations that

00:31:04   make controlling the cursor with a thumb stick worse for precision than, say, using a mouse or

00:31:09   touching the screen directly, which is what the kids these days do, or whatever. So to make a

00:31:14   first-person shooter playable, games usually have to have some kind of Aim Assist that has to

00:31:20   interpret what you're doing with your thumb to control the cursor and what's on the screen.

00:31:25   And so if it looks like, for example, you're flicking your finger up towards where somebody's

00:31:30   head is, and they calculated that trajectory that if it continued along that course, your cursor

00:31:36   would come more or less near the head. They will snap your aiming cursor to the head so that you

00:31:42   can pull the fire button and get a head shot. Whereas in reality, if they let the cursor go

00:31:45   where it was going to go, maybe it wouldn't have been anywhere near their head. Maybe it would have

00:31:49   just fired over their shoulder or something like that. And there's all sorts of kinds of Aim Assist

00:31:53   in Destiny, not just what I described. But all that stuff needs to be there to make the game

00:31:58   playable and fun. And the interesting thing about it in terms of gaming, and probably it's also

00:32:04   true of hardcore iPad users like Paticci, is that if you play Destiny with a controller,

00:32:09   you play the Aim Assist. Once you get to sort of a medium level of experience with the game,

00:32:14   you realize the Aim Assist is there, you understand it's there, and you play it.

00:32:17   You know that if I kind of just gesture as quick as I can in this general direction,

00:32:22   there's a certain amount of magnetism that player's head has for my aiming cursor.

00:32:26   And rather than taking the time to carefully get in that direction, at which point I'll be shot

00:32:31   myself, I quickly flick towards there and time it so that the Aim Assist, where my cursor slows down

00:32:37   ever so slightly when it passes over their head, that I can pull the trigger at the same time.

00:32:40   By the way, I'm terrible at this. I'm the world's worst drag sniper. But I still play the Aim Assist

00:32:44   even just for primary weapons. So this was exciting to me because it was hearing the

00:32:51   application, not because it's Destiny, but hearing the application of general gaming technology,

00:32:55   because every first person shooter that has control over support does something like this.

00:32:59   The application of gaming technology to personal computers, to non-gaming applications. And I think

00:33:04   that's a great idea. I think we should see more of that. All the same tech that make games fun to

00:33:11   play and make them feel responsive and make it feel like the game is doing what you meant in

00:33:16   your head and not what you did with your actual body, all that just makes using your iPhone or

00:33:23   your iPad or even your Mac also feel good. So more of that, please. I would just like you to know

00:33:30   that because I feel so lost by the terminology in Destiny, it was only halfway through your monologue

00:33:37   when I realized you were saying Aim Assist. And for some reason I kept... No, no, no, no,

00:33:42   you pronounced it correctly. But I kept hearing in my brain Amethyst, which I assumed was some

00:33:46   sort of like weird Destiny thing. This is on me. You were pronouncing it just fine. It's just,

00:33:51   I'm so used to not understanding... It's the Long Island accent.

00:33:53   Yeah. Well, I'm so used to not understanding anything Destiny related that I just assumed

00:33:57   this was another case. And then about a minute or two ago, "Oh, Aim Assist."

00:34:03   The more derogatory term was called auto-aim back in the day. The PC users would say, "Oh,

00:34:08   you have auto-aim, automatically aims for you." By the way, PC users, sorry to disappoint you,

00:34:13   but Destiny and PC also has a little bit of auto-aim. Don't tell anybody.

00:34:18   Yeah. I mean, if you want to see videos on this topic, just search for,

00:34:22   like on YouTube, just search for like how to make platforming feel good or all sorts of stuff. Like

00:34:27   every game does this to some degree. There's lots of platforming videos because there's just well

00:34:33   known things that platformers do. Like for example, Coyote Time, which is a term that was coined,

00:34:39   I don't know, maybe a decade ago or so, and that everyone in this video uses. That's...

00:34:43   I have to give so much context. I feel like Merlin. I have to give so much context to explain

00:34:47   this. Coyote Time refers to Wile E. Coyote. Who's Wile E. Coyote? Wile E. Coyote used to chase a

00:34:54   Roadrunner. He was a cartoon. And one of the things that would happen in the videos is he

00:34:57   would chase the Roadrunner. Wait, did he die? Why is this past tense? Is he dead?

00:35:00   I mean, I don't think they're making any new Wile E. Coyote cartoons. Maybe I'm wrong,

00:35:04   but they make new Mickey Mouse cartoons now. I haven't checked on Disney Plus. I don't think

00:35:08   they own... That's a Warner Brother thing, isn't it? Anyway. Wile E. Coyote would run,

00:35:14   and he was always running around where there are lots of big cliffs for comedic value, and he would

00:35:18   run and find himself... Find that he had run off the edge of a cliff, but he wouldn't fall to his

00:35:23   death until he realized that he'd fallen off the edge of the cliff. So at a certain point, he's in

00:35:27   midair, over the edge of the cliff, so we can all appreciate his comedic situation. Then he looks

00:35:32   down and then he falls. Pretty much every platform game that feels good, a game where you're like a

00:35:37   side-scroller where you're jumping around with a little character, allows you to essentially run

00:35:40   off the edge of a cliff and still hit jump, even though you're no longer on the cliff. Because if

00:35:46   they didn't, you would feel cheated by the game. You were like, "Hey, I hit jump. I didn't fall."

00:35:50   And the game knows, no, actually, your little character was off the edge of the cliff before

00:35:54   you hit jump. So you should, by all rights, fall to your death, but instead, we will build in some

00:35:58   amount of Coyote time, which allows you to jump. In fact, speaking of modern game builders, there

00:36:02   was a good video, I think, on the Celeste video game, a game that Tiff really enjoyed and talked

00:36:07   about with Mike on their gaming podcast. Celeste does that and more. You can find that video. If I

00:36:14   find it, I'll put it in the show notes. If not, just search for Celeste game mechanics or something.

00:36:19   All that stuff, like I said, all that stuff that makes games feel good and fun also makes computers

00:36:23   feel good and fun. So I like seeing it here. And I always like seeing some of this talent applied

00:36:27   to things that aren't just shooting people in the head. Yeah, although shooting people in the head

00:36:31   is not good in real life. But virtually, it's basically just like playing a game of tag,

00:36:35   especially since you respawn instantly. So I endorse it when it is in the context of space

00:36:41   magic and not reality. And the second thing that Craig talked about was one of our pet peeves,

00:36:48   closing apps. So he was talking about how people who grew up with technology that was less advanced

00:36:54   get used to the idea that they have to deal with memory. Like he didn't bring this out specifically,

00:36:58   but back on the classic Mac, YouTube probably don't remember this, but back in classic Mac OS,

00:37:02   you could get info on a file in the Finder. One of the fields in the get info window was a place

00:37:07   where you could type in how much RAM the application should have. Because classic Mac OS did not have

00:37:13   dynamic memory allocation in the beginning at all. And then eventually it was still somewhat limited.

00:37:18   Right. It didn't have virtual memory. It didn't have a modern memory system. And so an application

00:37:23   would come with a default allocation, but if you wanted to do something, if you want to open a

00:37:27   really big document or you want to do something demanding or whatever, you could increase that

00:37:30   amount of memory. And that type of manual management of like, "Oh, I have to keep track

00:37:34   of how much memory the thing needs. And if it's limited set too low, I have to quit the app and

00:37:39   make it bigger and launch it again." All that sort of ridiculous stuff of managing memory.

00:37:43   He brings it up in the more modern context of, on the Mac, I have to worry about whether an

00:37:49   application is running or not. Do we need to launch the application first or whatever? That

00:37:52   was the whole push at various points in the history of Mac OS to make the distinction between

00:37:59   running and non-running applications less visible to the user down to the point where they stuck

00:38:05   this to a preference where you can remove that little dot on the dock that's supposed to be

00:38:09   underneath running applications. You could just make it so there's no dots. And what do you care

00:38:12   if it's running or not? If it's not running and you launch it, it'll just pick up right where you

00:38:16   left because good Mac developers implement auto save and resume and state restoration,

00:38:20   just like iOS developers. iOS developers had to do it because their app could be killed at any time

00:38:24   and was killed at any time when there was no multitasking and now it was killed less frequently,

00:38:28   but still killed. So every iOS app has had to do this from day one, but Mac apps haven't,

00:38:34   and it's been difficult to bring up the speed of it. But all of this was about how that mindset of

00:38:40   making the user worry about implementation details related to memory and running applications was

00:38:45   something of the past. And Craig says, "People who were brought up in that environment, to this day,

00:38:52   we see them constantly force quitting applications on their iPhones." Which is true. He didn't go so

00:39:00   far as to tell those people they were bad or wrong, but they are. It's because he's very

00:39:04   political. But he did say that people who are brought up in that older world bring those

00:39:10   habits forward and think they need to manually replace, which I think is also true. But I would

00:39:15   say that even kids who are brought up and have no idea what classic Mac OS is, they're brought up on

00:39:21   modern things. The first device they ever used was an iPhone or an iPad. They're doing it too.

00:39:26   And it's not because they're used to the idea that they have to manually

00:39:30   manage memory. So I really hope that, you know, this is just a throw off line in one podcast,

00:39:35   but I really hope that Apple understands the root problem related to people obsessively force

00:39:39   quitting apps is not that everyone who's doing it is an old fuddy duddy who grew up using classic

00:39:44   Mac OS. That's not what's causing this. There are people like that for sure, right? But that's not

00:39:49   the root cause. And so I hope they have a deeper understanding of exactly what's going on and

00:39:53   exactly why this phenomenon of reflexively force quitting every single application on your iOS

00:39:57   device has swept the world like coronavirus. Anyway, bad comparison. I'm sorry. Yeah, I was,

00:40:04   if you didn't bring up this part of this angle on that interview, I was going to bring it up because

00:40:09   I love that interview. The Federico and Federighi interview over on App Stories was fantastic. I

00:40:16   really enjoyed it. But that was the one thing that stood out like when he kind of disregarded or

00:40:21   excused this behavior of people force quitting apps as, oh, well, you know, it's just people who were

00:40:25   used to the old way of doing things on PCs. Like, no, that's not it. Like there's people do it for

00:40:30   many more reasons than that. Some of which are actually good reasons, much to my chagrin as a

00:40:35   developer, because people force quit my app all the time and then complain about it not like

00:40:39   background updating and stuff like, which they basically caused by force quitting it.

00:40:43   Regardless, like it's a real thing that people do for very good reasons, some of which are,

00:40:50   you know, urban legends, some of which are placebo, but some of which are actually real

00:40:53   reasons. And if Apple doesn't understand them yet, they really should. The reasons aren't good,

00:40:59   but the reasons exist and aren't what Craig said, right? So they have their reasons for doing it.

00:41:04   They're just mistaken about, you know, the connection between, you know, thing that I want,

00:41:09   therefore action will get what I want. And, you know, as you point out, Marco, a lot of times,

00:41:13   like they may want something, but their action causes the other harm. Like, oh,

00:41:17   why doesn't Overcast ever download my stuff in the background? Because you keep force quitting it.

00:41:20   That's why. Why are you force quitting it? Well, I just always force quit everything.

00:41:24   This brings me back to that idea that I had many shows ago, that some new version of iOS should,

00:41:30   you know, provide like a single button to quote unquote force quit everything,

00:41:34   just make all the little pictures disappear from the multitasking switcher, but not have it actually

00:41:38   force quit everything. Because those rules can change at any time. And they do. Like,

00:41:42   what does force quitting do? How many people who aren't developers know all the consequences

00:41:47   of swiping up that little thing? Like very few, right? And they wouldn't be doing it reflexively.

00:41:52   But like, you know, I don't want to get too deep into it again, because we talked about many times

00:41:55   in the past, but people want to clean that thing up. And every once in a while, there's a super

00:42:00   duper legit reason to force quit a single misbehaving app or a few misbehaving apps. But

00:42:06   it's just so much easier mentally to say, you know what, look, I'm just going to clean them all up.

00:42:10   It makes me feel good to clean them all up. Every once in a while, it fixes Facebook from killing

00:42:14   my phone battery. So it's just a thing I'm going to do from now on is I'm going to force quit every

00:42:19   app all the time. And it's my idle animation. I'm online, force quit, force quit, force quit.

00:42:24   I'm going to put my phone in my pocket, force quit, force quit, force quit, force quit. Please,

00:42:27   everybody, don't do this for a variety of reasons. Force quit apps when they need to, not reflexively

00:42:31   all the time, because it's fun. It was a good interview and it's worth your time. John and Marco,

00:42:38   can you please ensure that you have given me lifetime free access to your applications?

00:42:43   I want to make sure that I have all of your stuff for free. I haven't gotten that one. That's an

00:42:48   interesting one. I wasn't sure which one of you this was that put this in the show notes,

00:42:52   but the show notes reads unsolicited emails that developers receive, new line quote,

00:42:57   give me your app for free quote. Yeah. So this is just, I don't want to have a preface here.

00:43:03   This is not like serious complaint, at least not for me, not, not a serious kind of complaint

00:43:07   or anything like that. It's not like saying, Oh, it's so hard to be developed because people

00:43:11   email us. Not that at all. It's just that, you know, as someone who, as a newbie to the,

00:43:15   the Apple app stores, I just recently put an app into two apps into the Mac app store.

00:43:20   I noticed that I started to get a bunch of emails that I did not get in the past, right?

00:43:26   Just because I have, you know, a couple of apps in the app store. One of those varieties of emails

00:43:32   that I've been listing here is essentially an email that where someone asks for a free copy

00:43:37   of your application. Now there are legit versions of that. Hey, I want, I want to review your

00:43:42   application for my publication. Can you give me a free copy or whatever you can argue about the

00:43:45   ethics of them getting a free copy and reviewing it and stuff like that. But that's what promo

00:43:48   codes are for. You know, partially Apple gives you a system where you can generate a coupon code that

00:43:53   you can give to somebody and they get a free copy of your app. Great. Like there are legit reasons

00:43:56   for that. You know, and Hey, people can ask, you know, it doesn't hurt to ask, right? If you want

00:44:02   a free copy of an app, maybe you just ask for it. Maybe you'll get one. Maybe you have a story. Oh,

00:44:06   I'm a student and I really want to use your app to make this thing, but I can't afford it because

00:44:09   it's expensive. You know, yada yada, whatever. Everyone's got a reason. The reason I bring this

00:44:13   up though, is that just having two apps, I noticed a certain similarity almost as if it's like a form

00:44:21   letter and automation to a particular form of asking for the free app where there's no

00:44:26   real effort to give a reason. Like I'm, I'm in financial straits or whatever, or I really need

00:44:32   this app to do more, which makes sense for my apps, which are, you know, simple utility apps

00:44:36   that don't cost a lot of money and honestly don't provide so much functionality. But like,

00:44:40   I need this app for my work. No, you don't. It's an app switcher and a window layering, like, you

00:44:45   know, behavior modification. There is no work that you do that requires those applications. Right.

00:44:51   But, you know, after the, you know, 50th or 60th, one of these emails that all look the same and say,

00:44:58   please, may I have your application for free? I started to think, what is this? Like,

00:45:03   what is the benefit of, you know, mechanically, you know, through, you know, through some

00:45:08   automation, simply sending every single developer on the app store, a free request or the application,

00:45:12   I suppose, you know, even with a very small hit rate, if you send out 300,000 emails and you get

00:45:18   0.01% back, you know, you got some free apps. Great. But then of what value are those free apps?

00:45:24   Like, did someone, did someone write a script and do this and then they get like three or

00:45:28   four free apps each day and they're excited by them, but they never actually run them?

00:45:31   Because they're going to be random apps. Someone replies, okay, here's a free copy of my app. And

00:45:36   you're like, oh, well, I don't need this app. Is it just kind of like a collecting thing where

00:45:40   you never actually use the apps? You just, you just want to have the free copies and you can

00:45:44   compare like who has the most free apps. Like, you know, look how many free apps I have, you know,

00:45:49   like you compete to see who has the most, if you can break the purchase page in the app store by

00:45:53   having hundreds of thousands or hundreds of thousands of apps. Anyway, I just thought this

00:45:59   was interesting. And it made me think about the kinds of emails that you expose yourself to by

00:46:05   participating in an ecosystem. And in this case, it's the app store or whatever. And I have my two

00:46:09   little dinky apps and this is the one I could think of. But I just thought you two probably

00:46:12   have similar stories, especially Marco, about the kinds of emails you start getting once you're in

00:46:17   the app store, especially if you have like a significant application with kind of a high

00:46:21   profile. But I guess I'll start by asking, do you two get the give me a free copy of your app email

00:46:26   and does it look to you like some kind of automation? No, I almost, I don't, I can't

00:46:30   remember a single time I've gotten that. So maybe my apps aren't as good or aren't as popular or

00:46:34   aren't as visible, but not as expensive as mine. Your apps are free though, right? That maybe that's

00:46:38   why. It's free to download. And then they're both five bucks. It's a different, a different

00:46:42   form letter to say, can I please have your an app purchase for free? I, again, it surely has happened

00:46:48   at some point, but off the top of my head, I can't remember it having happened. Yeah. So I used to

00:46:53   get these all the time for Instapaper because when I ran it, Instapaper had a paid upfront app

00:46:59   and I, you know, I didn't use an app purchase at the time and, or at least not anyway for a while

00:47:05   anyway. So like, so it was paid upfront. So I got these emails all the time. So one of the reasons

00:47:12   people would get it is, you know, Hey, I want to, you know, I want to review it or I'm just a poor

00:47:16   college student, please give me, you know, people begging for it. And there was not much value,

00:47:21   honestly, in giving most of these people free copies of your app. It's one thing, you know, if,

00:47:26   if you are serving some kind of humanitarian or charitable purpose, but if you're looking at it

00:47:31   purely from a business point of view, like what's the value to me of a few people having a free

00:47:36   copy? Like it's usually not even worth your time to respond. What about exposure Marco? Yeah. So

00:47:41   that's, that's one of the most common variants that I, that I got was along the lines of,

00:47:48   hi, I'm so and so I have a popular YouTube channel in country X that is not your country. If you give

00:47:56   me a promo code for your app plus like three other promo codes to give away on my channel, I'll talk

00:48:02   about you and you can have exposure, that kind of thing. So they, so that's, you know, you were

00:48:06   asking John why somebody, what, what people do with their free codes. If they get more than one,

00:48:12   they usually will use one for themselves and they will give one away as some kind of contest on

00:48:16   their YouTube channel or their blog or whatever. These are usually YouTube channel. And, and the

00:48:22   funny thing is like if you actually look at these people's YouTube channels, they have what 30

00:48:26   subscribers maybe like it's not, you're, you're never going to get any kind of meaningful value

00:48:30   out of that. I would also say just as anecdotal, you know, counter argument to those kinds of

00:48:34   things. I have gotten lots of press reviews of my apps so far throughout my career and

00:48:41   they never asked for a promo code. Like the ones that actually mattered, the ones that actually got

00:48:48   significant attention that actually possibly might've moved the needle of sales of my apps at all

00:48:52   were never anything that requested a promo code from me. So for whatever it's worth, you know,

00:48:58   that's, but, but I've, I got, I got the emails all the time for this paper. For Overcast, I haven't.

00:49:03   And I think, you know, you know, it's, it's because he's a free apps up front. For a long time,

00:49:09   you couldn't even have promo codes for in-app purchases. I'm not sure you can now. And if you

00:49:14   can now, I'm not sure whether you can do it for subscription purchases or not. And since Overcast

00:49:19   currently only has a subscription purchase, I don't know if there's any real way for me to do that,

00:49:23   but either way, nobody ever asks. But yeah, certainly the, you know, exposure on my YouTube

00:49:29   channel, give me five codes to give away for like 30 subscribers. That's, that was a very common

00:49:33   thing to get. That shows an interesting, some amount of savvy that they must know that there's

00:49:39   no such thing for, as a promo code for a subscription based in-app purchase or whatever.

00:49:44   Otherwise they would just ask anyway, and you know, whether or not you can actually give it to them.

00:49:47   So there's, it feels like there's knowledge on the other end. Yeah, they, exposure or whatever,

00:49:51   like my apps, no one's buying them anymore anyway, so it doesn't matter. But like,

00:49:54   I, I, I give away free apps all the time. Like, I don't care if I, if I'm, if I happen to have

00:49:59   the App Store Connect window open and I want to generate a promo, I can generate a promo code.

00:50:03   I'll just give them, like, I don't, I'm not begrudging these people, these apps. I just,

00:50:06   at a certain point, I became amazed at the sameness, at the sameness. And then like,

00:50:11   I'm amazed, in the case of my weird little apps, I'm amazed that anyone would go through the effort

00:50:16   to write an email for a free copy for this weird app. I feel like saying,

00:50:20   do you know what this app does? You're probably not going to like it. Like,

00:50:23   especially if you're an automated form thing, like, it's just going to be like, here you go.

00:50:27   But like, of all the free things to ask for, like, you really, you know,

00:50:32   especially if they write more than one sentence and have some kind of explanation, it's like,

00:50:35   ask for a free copy of Photoshop or something like, Switch Glass is not going to change your

00:50:39   world too much. - Well, and people did. I mean,

00:50:41   and I think this kind of thing made more sense when software cost hundreds of dollars.

00:50:46   But these days, when, you know, most of the things that are receiving these emails cost like,

00:50:51   one to five dollars, you know, it's a lot less of a--

00:50:55   - I'm at the top of that range. Five dollars is the hundred dollars of today's app store.

00:50:59   - Yeah, it is. - My app is incredibly expensive at $4.99.

00:51:03   But you know, I understand some people can't afford that exchange rates,

00:51:08   that people don't have money, kids, or whatever. Fine, here's a free copy. Like,

00:51:12   I'm glad you like it. Tell all your friends, right? But it's just weird that that is a

00:51:17   steady trickle of people just, you know, people and/or scripts asking for free copies of apps.

00:51:23   The other thing is that, then I never hear from them again, right? No one ever replies and say,

00:51:27   gee, thanks for the free app. Like, you will never hear from them again. You send the promo code,

00:51:31   they redeem it, and that's it. - Struggle is real.

00:51:34   So what other things have you gotten? What other kinds-- strains of emails that you get

00:51:38   just by being on the app store? - Well, first of all,

00:51:41   you will hear from Dun & Bradstreet. - Oh, god, are they a scam.

00:51:46   - I feel like every three to six months, I send a DM to Marco and Underscore in Slack saying,

00:51:55   hey, I just got this thing from Dun & Bradstreet. This is total garbage, right? And usually it's

00:51:59   like a race between the two of them to see which one of them will say, yes, total garbage,

00:52:04   throw it away. - Yeah, so Dun & Bradstreet,

00:52:07   they're some kind of like business directory company or something that's been around forever.

00:52:12   And Apple uses them to, during your account setup, when you set up a business app store account,

00:52:19   Apple uses Dun & Bradstreet to verify your info, basically as like, almost like a credit or

00:52:24   verification agency. Like, they're using them in that role. And so you have to submit your info,

00:52:29   and Apple makes it easy, it used to be way harder. Apple now makes it pretty easy to go through this

00:52:33   process, but basically you are submitting all of your business info, your EIN, your name and

00:52:40   address and everything, to this private company, Dun & Bradstreet, for Apple to verify that,

00:52:46   through them, that you seem to be a legit business. And then after that, Dun & Bradstreet will,

00:52:51   for the rest of time, spam you with the most hilariously misleading, scammy, like,

00:52:58   both phone calls and postal mail stuff, and I think maybe also email. So it's typically,

00:53:05   it typically will say something on the lines of, you need to complete your business credit report,

00:53:10   and finish your business credit report today by filling out this form or paying us this money or

00:53:15   whatever. And all it is is Dun & Bradstreet, like, basically selling you like fake verification for

00:53:21   fake spots and fake yellow pages, like that kind of crap. And every business gets weird, scammy,

00:53:27   solicitation attempts from services, like usually in the mail, just by having registered a business

00:53:32   somewhere in some database somewhere. But Dun & Bradstreet really takes it to another level by

00:53:37   how scammy their stuff looks, and it makes it really just dirty feeling that Apple is so involved

00:53:42   with them, or at least was, I don't know if they still are, but Apple basically forces all

00:53:47   developers with business accounts to subject themselves to this other company and give them

00:53:52   all this information. But I wonder if they still do it. - Yeah, I had to do it. - Oh, great,

00:53:57   so they still do it. - As of the beginning of this year, and I was just registering as an individual,

00:54:01   I didn't have an LLC at that point, and I still had to do it. - Yeah. - And they did call me.

00:54:06   - Yeah, it's, like, for a company that values privacy so much, it's kind of crappy that Apple

00:54:13   forces everyone to submit themselves to this really terrible company. - Their checking wasn't even that

00:54:19   thorough. You know what you reminded me of when you mentioned snail mails? Do you guys still get

00:54:22   the snail mail of, this isn't being in the App Store, but if you have any domain names registered,

00:54:27   there's a reasonable chance that you're gonna get a actual piece of paper mail to your house that

00:54:31   says, "Your domain is going to expire, renew today," and it's basically another registrar

00:54:37   trying to essentially get you to transfer your domain name from your registrar to them. - What?

00:54:41   No, I don't think I've ever gotten one of these. - Yeah, well, 'cause I do a pretty good job of

00:54:45   not having my address on any of my Whois anywhere, so most of the time I don't get those for domains.

00:54:50   I do get them occasionally for business registration stuff, and I will frequently get

00:54:54   stuff that's like New York tax scams of, like, it'll look like I owe money to the state,

00:55:01   and it's really, you have to look really carefully and find the one line of text on this piece of

00:55:08   paper somewhere that says, "This is a service by a third party," but it's real scammy. But that's

00:55:14   just any business in New York State and probably any state. - Yeah, the domain name stuff, like,

00:55:18   in the days before Hover, domain privacy was either not common or very expensive for both,

00:55:24   and so I do have domains or did have domains where I didn't have domain privacy, and now I think

00:55:30   this just, you know, they're forever gonna be sending me snail mail with some kind of domain

00:55:34   name coming. I still think, every year I go check this and I just say, "Are there any domains that I

00:55:38   still haven't transferred to Hover?" Which, frequent sponsor of the show, you know, disclaimer,

00:55:42   disclaimer, but I legit put my own, I don't get any kind of free domains, I'm legit paying for my

00:55:47   own domains to be on Hover, just because it's convenient to have them all in one place in Hover

00:55:50   as a nice service, yada, yada, this is not an ad. Anyway, some domains, like, I bought a long time

00:55:55   ago that on, like, five year, like, long expiration dates or something, and every year I go and say,

00:56:02   "Are all my domains on Hover?" And it's like, "Oh, there's still that one over there," and it has,

00:56:06   like, multiple years left on it, and I'm like, "Do I want to go through the transfer thing?" I'm like,

00:56:10   "Eh, no, I'll just wait a little longer," so I keep deferring it, so it could be some, or, like,

00:56:14   I think actually Hover doesn't do some subdomains as well, some really super-excure ones that Hover

00:56:19   either didn't do or doesn't do. Anyway, all this is to say is that I'm hoping someday when all my

00:56:23   domains are on Hover that has Whois privacy by default, I think, this will be solved. Not that

00:56:28   I look at my snail mail anyway, but I do recall seeing one of those in the past several years,

00:56:32   and they're still continuing to boggle my mind that this is a thing that people do.

00:56:36   Another very significant scam that app developers get once you go to a certain size,

00:56:42   there's this company, oh, God, I cannot think of what it's called, they email you cold,

00:56:49   and it sounds like what they want to do is get your app featured on their TV show that

00:56:55   airs on some cable channel. - Oh, yes, yes, oh, man, I know what you're thinking of. Oh,

00:57:00   what is that called? - I can't find it in my email. I can't remember even what cable channel,

00:57:04   like Bravo or something, I can't find it. Anyway. - No, it wasn't Bravo. I know what you're

00:57:07   thinking of, though. - Yeah, you got it, probably every developer gets this. So it's like we produce

00:57:12   a video segment on technology on cable TV, and it gets millions of people, whatever, whatever,

00:57:19   and we'd love to feature your app in a segment on our show. It's very salesy. It's like contact us

00:57:26   if you want to talk more and everything. So one time I actually did, I was curious. I'm like,

00:57:31   well, that sounds like a lot of people. What do they want from me to get featured on their show?

00:57:35   If they just want to talk about my app, it's no skin off my back. So I scheduled a phone call

00:57:40   with them, and what you eventually learn on the phone call is that they are going to, you have to

00:57:47   pay them thousands of dollars, and they will produce a video segment, and it doesn't actually

00:57:54   really air to any number of people. Whatever cable channel it is might show it once at two

00:58:01   in the morning or something, and they have this YouTube channel that they also will publish it to,

00:58:05   and many of their advertised numbers of like, you'll get this many subscribers, are actually

00:58:11   like YouTube views, and their YouTube channel looks horrendously sketchy, and it looks terrible,

00:58:17   and it doesn't seem like anybody watches it or anybody real watches it, but it takes you quite

00:58:24   a lot of engagement with them before you can even get to the point where you can realize this,

00:58:29   where you can realize like, okay, A, they don't seem to have the audience they claim to have,

00:58:34   and B, they want me to pay them a lot of money for this. So really what they are is like a video

00:58:40   production, you pay them to make kind of an infomercial about your app, and nobody will ever

00:58:45   see it, and it's, I actually went and watched some of the things they make, and they're hilariously

00:58:49   low effort, formulaic, low value, it's just amazing, and they wanted, I forget what they

00:58:56   said, but I think they wanted like at least like $5,000, it was a lot of money. Anybody on the app

00:59:01   store for a non-trivial amount of time, you're very likely to get that. Oh God, I gotta look

00:59:05   up what this is called. - Jelly has found it, Jelly has found it. So this was addressed to Jelly,

00:59:09   whose actual name is Daniel. "Hi Daniel, I'm reaching out to you because one of our senior

00:59:13   producers here at NewsWatch--" - That's it, NewsWatch! - "Came across gift wrap and thought it would be

00:59:17   great for a feature on our nationwide show. In case you haven't had a chance to watch an episode,

00:59:21   NewsWatch's 30-minute morning--" I can't believe I'm reading this, but it's so bad. "30-minute

00:59:25   morning news show brings our audience up to date on the latest innovations for both consumers and

00:59:29   businesses, from apps and tech products to B2B services--" I'm surprised you got through B2B

00:59:34   and didn't just immediately delete this, Marco-- "and even interviews with celebrities. The program

00:59:38   is broadcast nationwide on the AMC network in over 200 markets and reaches over 95 million households

00:59:43   across the US." - Yeah, so that's what I got, I scheduled a call them, this is back in early 2019.

00:59:48   Oh, here, their standard plan is $4,500. They go all the way up to the exposure package,

00:59:55   $9,500. All the metrics are still the same, I wonder what's different. It's standard interview

01:00:02   or exposure for $4,500, $7,000, $9,500, but all the metrics say they're the same. I wonder,

01:00:09   what does exposure get me for $9,500? Yeah, that's, yeah, so there's, the thing is, the App Store

01:00:16   is an active market where people are making lots of money and there's lots of traffic and lots of

01:00:21   everything, so there's gonna be a million vultures out there. There's gonna be scammers, there's gonna

01:00:26   be just opportunistic vultures who aren't quite running scams, but they're at least doing things

01:00:30   kind of not in a great way. There's gonna be all sorts of stuff because it's an active market,

01:00:35   it is possible to make money here and through legit and non-legit ways, and so people will try,

01:00:42   and many of them will succeed. There are so many scams on the App Store and around the App Store,

01:00:48   this is just scratching the surface. I would say the general advice for many of us who listen to

01:00:52   those apps in the App Store is like, if you have an app that you know is like, you know, it's an

01:00:58   app you made, it's cool, you like it, but it's not like super popular, like, you know, like my apps,

01:01:02   they're little toy apps that I like and think are cool, but they're not super popular, if you get

01:01:06   people approaching you with business deals, they're probably scams. If you are a big app developer and

01:01:12   you have a popular, sophisticated, well-regarded, well-reviewed app, you're gonna get legit people

01:01:18   talking to you like, hey, let's do this thing, right? But like, be suspicious if your app has

01:01:22   like 10 downloads ever and you're getting people who want to do business deals with your great app,

01:01:26   like just, sometimes it feels good to think that, oh, hey, someone noticed my app, but chances are,

01:01:32   like, you know, compare your sales numbers to the supposed attention you think you're getting.

01:01:38   Marco needs to be a little more careful because he does have an actual popular app that people

01:01:41   know about that people want to do legit business deals with him all the time, which he also rejects,

01:01:44   but whatever, like, there's legitimate people who are doing that, but if you just put your first app

01:01:48   on the App Store and next week someone wants to do a great, important business deal with you,

01:01:52   probably a scam. - Something's up recently. I don't know what the market force is that's happening

01:01:58   right now, but in the last month, I've heard from three different companies who expressed

01:02:04   serious interest in buying my app, not because they wanted a podcast app necessarily, but because

01:02:12   they wanted to just buy my app and just stick their ads in the bottom of it and they can make

01:02:16   enough money through those ads to pay good prices for apps. Like, is that market somehow hot right

01:02:23   now, hotter than usual? - I don't know. If they can buy your app for a little enough money and it's an

01:02:28   automated process, you make it up in volume, I guess. You buy a bunch of apps, you put your ads

01:02:32   in the bottom, it takes about a week for people to notice, you get your impressions during that week,

01:02:37   and you're done. And you just dip it in the app or delete it from the store and just rinse and

01:02:41   repeat, right? - But this was like actual humans reaching out specifically for actual, like, this

01:02:46   app with substantial offers. - You gotta compare. Like, the more users an app has, the more it's

01:02:52   worth their time to actually engage humans and try to actually, you know what I mean? Like, I don't

01:02:56   know how the math works out, but maybe they do, you know. We'll see. If you keep getting offers like

01:03:02   this five years from now, assuming we're all still here, then it's obviously a viable business for

01:03:07   somebody. I advise you don't sell, by the way. - Thank you. Yeah, I don't really want to. Usually,

01:03:13   like, everyone has a price, right? Yeah, I would sell if somebody offered enough money,

01:03:18   but that number's very high. - My number is lower. Call me. Actually, no, my number actually,

01:03:25   well, yeah, all right, it is lower, but still not as low as you think because if someone, you know,

01:03:29   bought my little utility apps and ruined them, I would have to write them again 'cause I run them

01:03:33   all day, so I do actually need them to continue working. - Yeah, I just, at this, like, I learned

01:03:41   my past story with, like, having apps and then selling them, like, it was, it was fraught. There

01:03:49   were problems. Like, one of the reasons I have no interest in selling is because things are going

01:03:53   well and, you know, I don't really have anything else I want to be working on, but also, like,

01:03:59   I don't want my podcast app to suck and if I sell my app to somebody who is gonna ruin it in some

01:04:05   way, then I won't have a good podcast app to use anymore because I don't like anyone else's. That's

01:04:11   the reason I made mine, so I would probably just make another one. Like, I don't know, but I'm

01:04:18   not sure how well that would go over with the deal. - It's the Brent Simmons approach. - Yeah,

01:04:23   right. - I think you have to wait, like, 10 years in between those two events, though. - Yeah, and

01:04:27   I probably wouldn't be able to do that. - Well, that's how you know you're a cool kid is if Marco

01:04:31   puts you on the test flight for Sunny, the replacement for Overcast. John, is this gonna

01:04:40   be a happy story about importing old footage or is this gonna be a sad story? 'Cause I don't know if

01:04:44   I can handle a sad story right now. - It's an in-betweeny one. - Oh, goodness. - Yeah,

01:04:50   no, it's not, you'll see. Anyway. - All right, tell me about importing mini DV videos. - So,

01:04:55   when I first had my kids, the state-of-the-art technology, or at least my first kid, the state-of-

01:05:00   the-art technology for taking videos of your kids was still mini DV camcorders. This is a tiny little

01:05:07   magnetic tape and this adorable little mini digital video cassette and you put into this

01:05:14   device and it would turn and the tape would go past the recording heads and it had a lens and,

01:05:18   you know, it's an old-style camera but it was digital video, right? So, it was doing some kind

01:05:23   of MPEG compression or something and recording onto this tape. And, you know, it didn't take

01:05:30   long for iPhones and in my case, iPod touches and other things to come out and video to be taken in

01:05:36   more convenient packages, right? But before that happened, I recorded many, many tapes of my kids,

01:05:44   both my kids in fact, although the first more than the second, you know how that goes, parents.

01:05:47   But mini DV tapes, especially in the time I was making them, I had like my blue and white G3,

01:05:54   I think, when I first started making these, that's actually a lot of data. Like, if you just pull the

01:05:59   digital, the DV files off of the mini DV tapes, it was gigs and gigs and that used to be a lot back

01:06:04   in the days before, you know, multi-terabyte hard drives. So, I'd have them on the tape

01:06:10   and the tapes are digital, right? But I can't actually take them off the tape and put them on

01:06:14   my computer. They wouldn't fit. They were like 100 times larger than the capacity of the hard drives

01:06:19   in my computer. So, they're never going to go on my computer. But I did, you know, I would take

01:06:24   snippets of the footage and I would edit them in iMovie and I'd make a little movie and share it

01:06:28   with the relatives. Like, I'd do all that. But even just doing that one iMovie project for like

01:06:32   a 60-second clip or something was, you know, a significant amount of data and then I would just

01:06:36   throw away the files and just keep the finished video, right? So, I had all those. I had all of

01:06:39   my little projects of little things. But I had the raw material hours and hours, literally hours of

01:06:45   mini DV footage on all these tapes. And I wanted to have them like available in some way on my

01:06:50   computer. So, way back in the day, it was in the Mac OS X era, I got an app called iDive that

01:06:56   unfortunately no longer exists. And what iDive would do is you'd hook up your camcorder and it

01:07:01   would essentially do two things. One, it could take like a tiny, blurry little thumbnail every

01:07:08   n seconds. So, you'd have like a scrubbable thumbnail, you know, highly compressed thumbnail

01:07:12   timeline of your video. And two, you could also make massively compressed postage stamp size,

01:07:18   you know, H.264 or whatever was the algorithm of the day. I think this might predate H.264.

01:07:24   Tiny, heavily compressed miniature versions of your stuff. And you could fit all of that on my

01:07:30   computer of the time. So, what I did was I used iDive to transfer, you know, these thumbnails and

01:07:37   heavily compressed, you know, tiny versions of the video to my computer. So, if I ever said, "Oh,

01:07:42   where's that video of, you know, my daughter doing this cute thing?" I didn't have to remember which

01:07:46   tape it was on. I could go and physically look, you know, scrub through the video, "Oh, it's that

01:07:49   one." And then pull out the tape and get the quote unquote high quality footage off of the mini DV

01:07:54   and do stuff with it in iMovie, right? And if anyone has, doesn't remember, never knew what

01:08:01   importing DV footage was like, at least with my camcorder, the only option I had was essentially

01:08:07   press play on the camcorder and allow the computer to record in real time. So, if you have 90 minutes

01:08:13   of mini DV, that's going to take 90 minutes to import. Repeat for your shoebox full of tapes.

01:08:18   It took a long time. Yeah, I mean, because the mini DV format, I think, was very closely tied

01:08:23   to FireWire. Like, I think it was basically sending a, like, raw FireWire stream. It was,

01:08:29   it was like 400 megabits per second, like exactly like the, it was, it was something like that. It

01:08:33   was like, it was very closely related to the FireWire spec and FireWire was basically made

01:08:38   for DV. Yeah, the standard, yeah, they were tied closely together. A lot of the selling points of

01:08:43   FireWire was that it could handle the latency and the strict timing required to have that constant

01:08:50   stream of video coming down so it didn't have any hiccups or anything. And, you know, anyway,

01:08:54   the FireWire USB battles were long over, but back in the day, it was important. And my camcorder did

01:08:58   have a FireWire port on, FireWire 400 port, because that was the only FireWire at the time I got it.

01:09:03   So I did that. I spent the hours importing everything into iDive and I brought that iDive

01:09:08   library with me along from, you know, my PowerMax into my Mac Pro. And then eventually I brought it

01:09:13   on to my current Mac Pro. And this is long after iDive stopped being developed. This is long after

01:09:20   iDive stopped working, I think, even. I think it broke in one of the old versions of macOS,

01:09:24   but if it hadn't broken then, it certainly would have broken now because it was a 32-bit app. And,

01:09:27   of course, you know, anyway, and the company that makes it like just has a sad little web page. It's

01:09:32   like, we don't make iDive anymore. Sorry. But I had all this footage in iDive and I was like, well,

01:09:38   can I rescue that or do I want to rescue that? So, you know, I did. This is kind of a casey

01:09:45   solution. You know, fire up a VM with an old version of macOS 10 on it, you know, and yeah,

01:09:52   that works and you can run iDive. I don't recommend it, but I got it working well enough

01:09:57   to like be able to sort of look at what's in iDive and with modern eyes, it's like, yeah, this isn't

01:10:03   really worth saving. The total size was like 50 gigs or something, but it's 50 gigs of postage

01:10:08   stamp size garbage thing. So I'm like, okay, well, that was fun. Having iDive there was useful

01:10:15   as a way to look things up quickly, but now it is of no value to me. But I do actually want the

01:10:19   contents of those videos. So I had to eventually face the reality that I would, I have to reimport

01:10:27   everything. And that meant, you know, 90 minutes per tape. I did that over the course of many,

01:10:34   many weeks. And I imported and I use modern compression and these like H.265 and the full

01:10:40   quality ones, they're still big, by the way, if you'd import them, like, I don't know if it's

01:10:44   uncompressed, but it seems minimally compressed or uncompressed. They're big, but even by modern

01:10:48   standards. But if you H.265 compress them, you can get really good quality and they end up being kind

01:10:53   of small. So I re-imported every single one of these tapes and then I deleted my iDrive library.

01:10:57   Notice, Casey, the order that I did that in, by the way. Reimport the new ones first, then,

01:11:03   anyway, because for all I know, the tapes are all entirely bad. And that's the one wrinkle in this,

01:11:08   is that when I was re-importing them, a couple of them, especially at the beginning of the tapes,

01:11:13   would have all sorts of digital noise and stuff all over them. Like these giant blocks of, you know,

01:11:18   white and blue and pink and stuff like that. I'm like, hmm, well, you know, these tapes,

01:11:23   they are very old. They may have deteriorated, stretched out, you know, got demagnetized or

01:11:27   whatever. But very frequently I would, you know, if I saw that, I would stop, rewind the tape,

01:11:33   everyone loves rewinding, and then start the import over again. And either the noise would go away or

01:11:40   I'd get different noise. And so each tape that I had noise on, I took two or three attempts to see,

01:11:45   like, and I would only let it run if I got past the first minute or so with minimal noise.

01:11:49   But it was interesting, this is my first actual experience with trying to rescue digitally stored

01:11:56   media from my distant past and having some of it deteriorate. The good thing about whatever

01:12:03   algorithm or whatever format they're using is that just because there's some noise and garbage and,

01:12:08   you know, it's not, I say noise, it's analog noise, just because some of the bits are obviously

01:12:13   flipped and screwed up on this thing. It didn't stop it from importing. It didn't stop it from

01:12:19   mostly working. There's just some garbage on the screen and it eventually clears up. I'm glad the

01:12:23   entire tapes weren't like this. Like it was mostly just at the beginning. But a few of them, you know,

01:12:28   I did have some data loss. Like there are sections of the picture of the first few minutes of a couple

01:12:32   of these dozens of tapes that have a bunch of garbage in them and we're going to get those back.

01:12:36   So what can you do? But I'm mostly glad that it worked and that I now have a hopefully more robust

01:12:44   digital copy of this. Fingers crossed for Bitrot not to bite me. And then of course it has entered

01:12:49   my patented backup vortex and is now copied in a thousand places, including by the way,

01:12:55   putting them into my photo library because why the hell not? That puts it in five more places.

01:12:59   So that's it. It was mostly a good story. I didn't actually lose any, none of the tapes were

01:13:04   unreadable, but you know, maybe three or four minutes of video total are kind of scrambled a

01:13:10   little bit out of the hundreds and hundreds of minutes that I recorded. God, you know, not just

01:13:16   technology wise, but it became clear to me when watching it that I, at least personally, used to

01:13:22   record video in a very different way back then. Like every shot was like, they were long, right?

01:13:29   I mean, I would film 90 minute tapes. No one is taking 90 minute videos of their kids on their

01:13:34   iPhone unless there's some like very enthusiastic relative who wants to record Little Timmy's entire

01:13:41   birthday party. People are taking clips. And honestly, if you try to do 4K 60 on your iPhone

01:13:46   of Timmy's birthday party, you're going to fill it. Like that stuff takes up a lot of room. People

01:13:51   take much shorter movies, including me. I take much shorter movies. Oh, the dog is doing something

01:13:55   cute. Fine. You take a 60 second movie, maybe at most, but looking at this footage and like, wow,

01:14:00   I just kept rolling. Just like, you know, minute after minute, hour after hour, just like,

01:14:06   it's great because you get to see my kids doing things in an extended way and not just trying to

01:14:10   catch the one cute thing, but like, you know, here's an entire feeding and the cleanup afterwards.

01:14:16   So it was fun. I enjoyed watching the videos out of the corner of my eyes as they totally

01:14:24   monopolized my computer for hours and hours on end. Oh, and the other fun part of this was,

01:14:29   of course, finding the series of dongles required to go from Firewire 400 into a 2019

01:14:35   Mac Pro. It wasn't that bad. That's the other reason I did this. Look, if I keep waiting,

01:14:39   eventually no series of dongles will get me where I want to go. And those tapes are not getting any

01:14:43   younger, so I better just do it. So I did. I'm glad it mostly worked out. Yeah, my kids were cute.

01:14:48   Uh, Mini-TV video quality is terrible and the audio on the camcorder was not good. But hey, my, uh,

01:14:56   my, uh, childhood movies are on Super 8, which, uh, has its charms. Uh, Casey would love it for

01:15:01   the ceremony, of course, but, uh, A, there's no audio whatsoever. Uh, B, the frame rate is what,

01:15:07   12 frames per second? What a Super 8. It's really low frame rate. Uh, and C, it looks worse than

01:15:12   Mini-TV, even with the digital noise. Oh man. I remember, um, I might've told this story on the

01:15:19   show, but dad, uh, it was maybe when I was like newborn or maybe it was my immediate younger

01:15:26   brother. Um, but this thing lingered for long enough for me to have a memory of it to this day.

01:15:31   Uh, dad had some sort of camcorder where the camera did not have any sort of apparatus with

01:15:40   which to save the data it was capturing. So what he ended up having to do was carrying an entire

01:15:46   VCR on a shoulder strap. So this is like, and for those of you who are not old, like us, that was

01:15:52   very early in camcorder days. Yeah. Yeah. So imagine like, I know some of the kids these days

01:15:58   don't even know what a Blu-ray player is, but just for the sake of discussion, imagine a,

01:16:01   like a PlayStation that you, that you put on a shoulder, put on a shoulder strap and wear it.

01:16:07   And it's hooked up via a cable to a camera the size of like a professional film camera

01:16:13   that is taking video. So just indescribably bad with burn in that lasts for like 20 minutes.

01:16:19   Anytime you get anywhere near a light. And that was his setup in the best. Surely the batteries

01:16:24   lasted all of like four and a half seconds, but that's what he had to do was, you know,

01:16:27   actually hit the record button on the VCR that was hooked up to the camcorder. And the VCR was like

01:16:33   specifically designed to do this, but nevertheless, it's still like a household VCR that you're

01:16:40   carrying on your shoulder that probably weighed like 10 or 15 pounds. And God knows how much

01:16:44   power it drank. It was preposterous. And that was early videos of maybe not me, but certainly my,

01:16:50   my younger brothers. It was just the worst. The super eight said such bad light sensitivity

01:16:56   that this is probably also true of your, or your VHS set up that my parents had this like

01:17:02   incredibly blaring, presumably also super hot white light that would blind everybody.

01:17:07   Like you had the, it was like a light on a movie set. Like, you know, you always hear

01:17:10   people talk about being on movie sets and how there's so many lights and it's so hot and they're

01:17:14   so bright, right? That's what you had to do. Take any kind of video where you could see people. So

01:17:18   everyone, even though it's just indoors and normal indoor lighting, like during the day,

01:17:21   everyone looks like you found them in a cave, right? Cause it looks, it's total blackness

01:17:25   outside the radius of this white hot burning sun that you have to like have mounted on top of your

01:17:30   camera. Yeah. My first camcorder experience was only a small generation after Casey's. It wasn't

01:17:37   even ours. Like it's like our family friend had one and we could borrow it like whenever we had

01:17:41   like a school play or something. This is interesting. So Rybur in the chat is saying that the term

01:17:45   camcorder actually refers to a camera with a built in recorder. So that's what the one that I first

01:17:52   used was. They had, they had figured out how to miniaturize VCRs enough that it was still a full

01:17:57   size VHS cassette, but you could put this full size VHS tape into the camcorder, which was

01:18:04   approximately the size of a VCR, you know, vertically. And so it weighed a ton. It came in

01:18:09   this giant black carrying case. Like it was the size of like a desktop computer, like the case.

01:18:16   And inside you get, you'd pull out this heavy giant camcorder with a battery that was probably

01:18:22   about the size of like the sole of a shoe, like this huge long rectangle, like big thick thing.

01:18:29   And I remember like having it on your shoulder and I would, I must've been maybe, I don't know,

01:18:35   11, 12 when we were using this thing. And so like having that on my shoulder, I'm like, yeah,

01:18:39   I'm like the scrawny kid. It, you could only hold it up for maybe 15 minutes before your shoulder

01:18:45   would hurt like hell because it was just so heavy, but it was all, it was a full VCR. Like you could

01:18:50   actually, you know, you could connect it to your TV and you could actually watch movies on it. Like

01:18:55   you could, you could put in any VHS tape and hit play and you could watch movies either on the

01:19:00   little tiny black and white eyepiece screen, which was actually, I think a little CRT in there.

01:19:07   Or you could, you know, connect to your TV and have that be your VCR if you really wanted to. But

01:19:12   man, people don't know how good they have it these days. Things are,

01:19:17   yeah, this is all analog by the way. No, there's no digital anywhere. And this is all just analog,

01:19:21   analog quote unquote standard deaf because there was nothing else, videos. Yeah. JVC had the first

01:19:26   breakthrough product though. The one that was red, red and black kind of, that was the kind of one

01:19:31   where it broke through to the point where people would look at it and not be horrified that this

01:19:35   is an actual product. The JVC one was like, ah, kind of looks like a camera until you got it.

01:19:38   The JVC, the original JVC was also huge, but at least it wasn't like a shoulder bag, like

01:19:42   Casey's dad thing. That was the early adopter model. Yeah. So I put in the, in the chat, there's

01:19:47   an RCA camcorder and, and this is my, this, this matches my mental model of what these things used

01:19:54   to look like. And if you're used to holding up, like I joke about how we're old and kids these

01:19:59   days, but really, and truly, you know, people that are 10, 15 years younger than us have probably

01:20:04   never seen this. And this is the highest possible tech option that you had. And really the only

01:20:10   option that you had in the pro consumer or consumer category was something that was basically a VCR

01:20:16   that was mounted, like Marco said, on your shoulder that had a lens in front of it. I found the JVC

01:20:22   one. I think it's the JVC GRC one, the old red and black model. It's so small compared to that RCA

01:20:30   one, isn't it? Yeah. Right. Yeah. This is the one, didn't MKBHD do one of his like discovering old

01:20:34   tech videos on this camera? It was either this or something very similar to this. Yeah. It's,

01:20:37   it's a very famous thing. I think my aunt had this one too. I think this, there was also a similar

01:20:43   looking VCR at the time. And I remember it because it was the first remote control I can recall

01:20:49   seeing and had a wire. It had a long wire, but it had a wire. It's remote though. You could be on

01:20:55   the couch and you could hit play. That is, that is some stuff. Yeah. In some, in some respects,

01:21:00   it makes you think that like the, like super eight and a 16 millimeter and like the film ones

01:21:05   had a certain classiness that maybe this RCA one did not like, it looks impressive and everything,

01:21:11   but in the end, like, like the idea of film, like actual photo sensitive film flying past

01:21:18   an aperture at, you know, 16 or 12 frames per second or whatever. And that you would get that

01:21:22   film developed and that you would, that you would show it using a projector in your house that you

01:21:27   had that you could project the film onto your screen that you also would have to have a big

01:21:31   reflective movie screen in your house. My, you know, my parents had all of these things.

01:21:35   The idea that you could do it all electronically with the, the Azure called the VCR and your TV,

01:21:40   like it was amazing, but in some ways like, huh, but our TV is 21 inches. The projector

01:21:46   screen was huge and I don't get to hear the chicken chicken chicken chicken chicken chicken

01:21:49   anymore. I remember when I was in elementary school you would, you would know you were in for

01:21:56   a good day because the real to real projector would come into your room and that's how you would watch

01:22:00   a movie. Do you remember this? You know, cause there, there wasn't, there wasn't any sort of like

01:22:05   portable TV situation in like, cause as I got older in elementary school or perhaps middle

01:22:10   school, they would eventually stick these, you know, 50 pounds CRT TVs onto like a cart, right?

01:22:18   How did we not all die from those TV carts? It's the most top heavy thing in the world.

01:22:22   Like take this huge CRT and put it as high up as possible on this stand that weighs nothing,

01:22:27   this rickety metal stand with wheels on the bottom. And it's amazing. We're not all crushed

01:22:31   to death underneath those TVs right now. And put it in a room full of like hyper kids, like

01:22:36   wiggling and running around. And then you, of course you have to run a cord to it too.

01:22:41   The kids can trip over. I mean, to be fair, it was a, you know, kind of a trapezoid in profile.

01:22:47   The base was slightly bigger than the top, but it was not well balanced. I never even heard any

01:22:53   stories of those falling on people. I guess we just all thought they were stable, but yeah,

01:22:56   the film projectors were certainly more fun because it was more of a possibility of fire

01:23:00   and melting. Because of the, you know, I had to explain this to my kids. What were we watching?

01:23:05   We were watching some movie. No, it wasn't a movie. It was Little America, an Apple TV Plus

01:23:11   show, which I can actually recommend that I hadn't, didn't look at until someone tweeted at us and I

01:23:15   checked it out. And actually there's, you know, the episodes are hit and miss, but the good thing is

01:23:19   that they're all standalone episodes. It's not a series. So I would say just watch the first three

01:23:23   episodes of Little America. You'll know if you like it. It's only like 10 petal. Anyway,

01:23:27   at one point they're showing a thing that's supposed to have taken place in the sixties

01:23:30   or something. And a bunch of people are outdoors watching a movie, like an American movie in a

01:23:33   foreign country and they get to some dramatic scene and then the film gets stuck and it melts.

01:23:39   Right. And I, it occurred to me that my kids probably didn't know what they were seeing. Like,

01:23:43   I guess people have seen this in movies, you know, they still do it as a kind of a trope, but like,

01:23:47   instead of showing the picture, all of a sudden a white blob appears in the center of the picture

01:23:52   and it starts to expand and there's color fringing around it. And I explained to my kids what's

01:23:57   happening there is that the, the film that you can shine light through to make the picture,

01:24:02   that's flying past the light and the projector, the film got stuck. And the only way you can get

01:24:07   light bright enough to project was to have a very big and very hot light. And if any piece of film

01:24:12   stays in front of that bright, hot light for more than a couple of seconds, it melts. And that's

01:24:17   what you're seeing on the screen. What you're seeing is the white hot light of the projector

01:24:20   melting through the frame of film that got stuck in front of the light. And that's why it looks like

01:24:24   a big melty thing. I enjoy explaining stuff like that to my kids. Soon I'll be explaining to people

01:24:30   what the little icon of the phone handset means on their iPhones. Yeah, right. What is that shape?

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01:26:14   Let's do some Ask ATP. And let's start with Jamie Bender who writes, "If Apple does release an

01:26:25   ARM-based Mac, would we be willing to buy the first-gen machines that run it, or would we wait

01:26:31   until they sort out any major issues?" I know Marco's answer.

01:26:34   No, Marco's answer is absolutely yes. Oh yeah, I'd buy it on day one.

01:26:38   Uh, for me, I don't know. I honestly don't. I mean, generally speaking, this is where I say,

01:26:42   "No, it's not for me. I'd wait." And then I end up buying it on the first day. So probably that's

01:26:47   what I would do. But it's a much more invasive, let's say, change than a lot of the things that

01:26:57   I've lived through as an Apple user. Maybe not John, but for me. And so I don't know what I

01:27:00   would do. I'm really not sure. I would like to think I would wait until at least the second

01:27:06   model, if not the second generation. But I do like me a new shiny, so I don't know what I would end

01:27:10   up doing. John? An Apple user. Such a weirdo.

01:27:14   Initially, I'm thinking like, "Well, of course I'm not going to buy it on day one because I got

01:27:18   this big, honking, expensive computer that I'm going to be using for a long time, right? Even

01:27:22   if they do come out with a new one, I can't afford to get a new umpteen thousand dollar..."

01:27:26   You know, so of course not. But what I think about is, especially in these days of remote learning

01:27:32   and all sorts of other stuff, how my kids are fighting over the one laptop we have, because

01:27:35   none of them want to use the desktop computer because desktops are for old people, I guess.

01:27:39   I could potentially be in the market for another laptop to deal with having two teens in school

01:27:46   where they need laptops. So they could each have sort of one of their own. We've got the

01:27:50   previous generation is the... Yeah, I'm losing track of that. Yeah. The butterfly keyboard

01:27:56   retina MacBook Air is what we've got. 2017 MacBook Air. And it's fine for their purposes,

01:28:00   and the keyboard hasn't broken yet. But if they came out with the very first armed computer and

01:28:04   it happened to be a laptop in that sort of the MacBook Air class price range, I might get it

01:28:11   just to give the kids another laptop. And because of course I'd be curious about technically what

01:28:16   it's like or whatever. So it's not out of the question. It really depends on what computer is

01:28:20   first. If the first one is a 16-inch MacBook Pro, no, I'm not getting it because I'm probably never

01:28:24   gonna get that computer. But if it's a kid-appropriate laptop, I might get it on day one.

01:28:28   This is part of this question about whether they're sorting out major issues. Yeah,

01:28:34   there's going to be issues, right? But that hasn't stopped me before. I got the very first

01:28:40   Power Mac G5. There was a lot of inherent risk in that, and mine did have a weird dripping power

01:28:46   supply. But there is also the excitement of having the new thing ASAP. So if I bought it on day one,

01:28:54   I wouldn't be buying it expecting it to be perfect. I'd be buying it knowing there could be weird

01:28:58   problems. But if you go into that with your eyes open and that's part of the experience you expect,

01:29:04   it can still be fun. Yeah, I mean, I think the most likely source of weird problems is gonna be

01:29:08   the OS and the application ecosystem. It's gonna be the software side of things. The hardware is

01:29:14   probably gonna be rock solid because it's probably not gonna be that different from iOS hardware,

01:29:18   because their record on that is very strong. So really, the bigger challenge is gonna be how

01:29:25   ready will both Mac OS, presumably it is Mac OS, and the apps that will run on it, how ready are

01:29:33   those? How mature is that gonna be on day one? And the answer is probably gonna be, I'm sure most

01:29:39   stuff will work most of the time, but there's gonna be problems. And there's gonna be certain apps

01:29:42   that you just can't run for a while, while they get updated. And some of them, like any other

01:29:46   transition, some of them will never get updated and they won't make the transition. And so there's

01:29:50   gonna be issues like that. But that's probably gonna be true for the first few years of them

01:29:55   being in existence, probably through multiple revisions of the actual hardware. Unai Haran

01:29:59   writes, "Hey Casey, which file system did you use to format your big external drive? Maybe it's a

01:30:04   question for John, but an accumulated experience in the last months, I think you were the one."

01:30:08   So this is with reference to the Best Buy 12 terabyte drive that I got in desperation and made

01:30:15   a duplicate of my Synology on to. I formatted it APFS because it seemed like the most appropriate

01:30:20   thing to do and the path of least resistance when I'm hooking it up to a Mac Mini. Now,

01:30:25   John can tell me what I should have done, but to quickly answer the question, it is APFS. John,

01:30:30   what should I have done? - A lot of people have asked about this. APFS does not perform well on

01:30:37   spinning disks. It was not designed for spinning disks. That's not its strong suit. It is

01:30:44   kind of an anti-pattern to put APFS on a spinning disk. But the reason a lot of people end up doing

01:30:50   it, including me, my internal clone of my boot drive is a spinning disk that is forming with

01:30:54   APFS, is the path of least resistance when cloning a drive with most cloning software

01:30:59   is to just actually make a clone. So if the disk you're cloning is APFS, so is the clone.

01:31:04   It's a very straight, I use SuperDuper to do that. I'm not even sure if SuperDuper can do an APFS

01:31:09   clone to HFS+, but it's just more straightforward to me to say, if you're gonna make a clone of a

01:31:14   disk, make it identical to that disk. I don't run anything off that I mentioned, I think,

01:31:18   on a previous episode that I accidentally booted into that and couldn't understand why it was

01:31:21   making so much noise. I don't recommend people use APFS on spinning disks unless they're using it as a

01:31:29   backup that's just there, just in case, or a clone or something similar. HFS+ and HFS before it were

01:31:36   made in an era when the layout of the structures of the file system on the disk were tailored to

01:31:43   the idea that you had a disk head zooming back and forth on a spinning platter and you had to wait for

01:31:48   the platter to spin around the part that you wanted and you had to move this place at one place or

01:31:51   another and you had to wait for it to stop shaking so it stabilized in a little thing. And so HFS+

01:31:56   does a lot of work to jam all of its important structures into continuous blocks in a single

01:32:01   location so that that little disk head doesn't need to fly all over to this to do a simple operation.

01:32:06   APFS does not do that because APFS was born in the world of SSDs where random access is a thing and

01:32:13   there is no more disk head and there's no more spinning platters. So I think Casey did basically

01:32:19   the same thing I would do but it's, you know, if he was actually going to ever try to use that disk

01:32:24   as opposed to just having it as a backup it would be a bad scene. Pascal Lindelof writes, "What are

01:32:30   the chances of Apple ever making iPadOS a multi-user OS? I have a new model iPad Air which is used by

01:32:35   the family around the house but when it's not in use by them I like to use it as a second sidecar

01:32:39   screen. However that requires it to switch from the family iCloud account to my own iCloud account.

01:32:43   This is a very tedious process. I want to have a separate iCloud account for the family on the iPad

01:32:47   to prevent my photo library from getting swamped with pictures taken by the kids on the iPad or

01:32:51   having my YouTube recommendations being overgrown by Sean the sheep." You know, iPads are multi-user

01:32:58   in the education environment but that requires a whole bunch of specific scenarios and circumstances

01:33:03   and software. What is it, Apple Classroom or something like that? I really don't see it coming

01:33:11   to the iPad if at all then I don't see it anytime soon. I mean you could say, John, on an infinite

01:33:16   time scale maybe it would happen but personally I just don't see it in the next few years. But John,

01:33:22   what do you think? This is actually, I was thinking about this and the reason I put this question in

01:33:26   here, this is actually a miniature version of my old hobby horses like back in the day, you know,

01:33:34   Apple's big problem technologically speaking, their biggest amount of tech debt to use modern

01:33:39   lingo that the office drones will understand. The biggest chunk of tech debt was they had an

01:33:45   operating system that did not support preemptive multitasking or protected memory and that became

01:33:52   an increasingly big deal as its competitors got those features and as it continued to not get them

01:33:57   because so much of its software stack was built on the idea of a single continuous memory space

01:34:02   that every app could access at the same time and cooperative multitasking, right? And those were

01:34:07   not the answers to the future. It made sense when they made the decisions but eventually it became

01:34:12   this huge tech debt burden and the company basically almost went out of business while

01:34:16   it tried to figure out how the hell are we going to get a modern version of the Mac operating system

01:34:21   while not losing literally all of our customers. It came very, very close to going out of business.

01:34:27   They had like what, 90 days worth of money before they left when they bought Steve Jobs in and X and

01:34:32   everything. So close call. That's obviously a much bigger boulder than this. And I used to complain

01:34:39   about their file system and they addressed that. What were my other technological peeves? I've had

01:34:45   a bunch of these of varying size. Swift. Oh yeah, new programming language. Yep, they've more or

01:34:50   less addressed that too, right? So good on Apple. I think the one time I actually met Craig Federighi

01:34:56   at WWDC a couple of years back, his opening line to me was like, "Well, you got everything you

01:35:00   wanted. You have nothing left to complain about, right? You got your modern operating system. You

01:35:04   got your new programming language. You got your new file system." And he was partly right. But

01:35:09   there's always something else, right? So this little thing here, "Hey, why isn't iPad iOS

01:35:14   multi-user?" iOS from day one, again, for explicable and good reasons, was not made like

01:35:21   macOS where you would log in as a user and all your files would be owned by you, the user, and

01:35:26   iOS on the original... It wasn't iOS. iPhone OS, the firmware on the original iPhone, they called

01:35:32   it firmware. It wasn't even an OS. Yeah, it runs OS X. That's what Steve said, but they never used

01:35:37   that name. Anyway, if you know how that was working under the covers, it was not working like

01:35:43   macOS X. You did not log in as a user. You didn't have your own user home directory. It was weird.

01:35:47   Lots of stuff ran as root. Lots of stuff was sort of... Not that it was single user, because under

01:35:53   the covers, it's still Unix and it's still got the same Unix security model and there was the sandbox

01:35:57   and thing and whatever, but it was just weird and it wasn't laid out or it didn't run like logging

01:36:03   into macOS X. And it still doesn't, right? To this day, there's a weirdness about it where it is not

01:36:09   like, "Oh, well, we can add multi-user to iOS anytime," because it's exactly like macOS X out of the covers.

01:36:13   It's Darwin and you don't know it, but you're already running all your apps out of your own home

01:36:17   directory. Not really. That's not quite how it works. The classroom stuff does this weird user

01:36:23   space reboot and everything, the solution they've had to that has been kind of a hack. So this is a

01:36:30   fairly big piece of tech debt. Assuming that Apple ever wants to have this feature, which I think they

01:36:35   should want to have it eventually, it's not easy to add. Like adding preemptive multitasking and

01:36:40   memory protection, like coming up with a whole new programming language, like writing a new file

01:36:45   system that will work across all their devices, it's not the type of thing that you can bang out

01:36:48   in a couple months. "Ah, we'll get that. No problem. We'll just make that when we need it."

01:36:53   If there comes a point where they want that, and arguably they've already passed that point because

01:36:58   if they could get it easily, they would have done it for classrooms, a place where it is actually

01:37:02   necessary, they had to do it as a hack. Because doing it the quote unquote "real way" where it's

01:37:08   an actual real multi-user system like the Mac is so different than the way iOS works now that it

01:37:13   would be really, really hard to do. Now, again, this is much smaller than even a new file system

01:37:19   and certainly much smaller than how we get a modern operating system. Those are much bigger

01:37:22   tasks and this probably won't hurt them in the long run. But if I had to pick my next area to

01:37:28   watch where Apple's got some core technological problem that is thorny and annoying and is never

01:37:35   going to be easy to deal with on the iOS platform, this would be in my top five for sure. Because it

01:37:42   always struck me as a little bit of a shame that the iPhone was so forward-thinking, so ahead of

01:37:49   its time, so barely possible, like that's part of the miracle, like they were in the Mac, so barely

01:37:54   possible that people thought it was fake and didn't understand how it was done. The original Mac,

01:37:59   I would argue, was even more so if you consider what it did with 128 kilobytes of RAM and all

01:38:03   those other things, right? That it had to be designed with all sorts of expedient hacks just

01:38:08   to even make it possible. And thanks to its success, again, the iPhone much more so than the Mac,

01:38:14   many of those hacks became enshrined. And Apple has slowly unwound them and slowly addressed its

01:38:19   tech debt over the years such that iOS of today is way more sort of sturdy and reasonably constructed

01:38:27   and built, but the legacy of the original iPhone is still in there right down to this inability to

01:38:33   do multi-user in a straightforward way because you just couldn't afford to do that from day one

01:38:38   with the original iPhone. Yeah, to add a little bit to that, I mean, so not only has iOS grown up

01:38:46   not having multi-user support, but iOS has also grown up at a ridiculous pace in a kind of,

01:38:53   you know, frantic software update ecosystem where iOS in general does not get a lot of opportunity

01:39:01   to pay off its technical debt because it's constantly moving and having stuff added and

01:39:06   the market is changing and the hardware is changing and everything is changing so much,

01:39:10   there's probably not a lot of good times that the people who work on core iOS services and core UI

01:39:16   have a chance to work on things that might make this possible or at least easier to do later.

01:39:22   That technical debt is so baked in and stretches across so much of the OS, I don't think they're

01:39:27   ever going to be able to repay it because it's never going to be important enough. It's never

01:39:31   going to be like a top priority thing to add multi-user support to iOS for a number of reasons.

01:39:35   First of all, I never really used Mac multi-user support until about the last year or so

01:39:44   as we've been various like, you know, beach travels and now with home school work and stuff like that,

01:39:52   we've had more needs over the last year for a Mac to be used by two or three people in our household

01:39:59   and so that's become a very common thing for us. And even on the Mac where multi-user support's

01:40:05   been there since the beginning and it's, or at least Mac OS 10, you know, it's been there since

01:40:09   the beginning and it's really, you know, baked into the OS, it's still kind of weird and still

01:40:15   a lot of stuff kind of breaks with it. And that's a mature system that was designed that way, right?

01:40:22   So even when it's baked in, the OS is really most of the time, and the applications on the OS,

01:40:30   most of the time are assuming that it's going to be used by one user on one device period.

01:40:35   >> What kind of problems are you having, by the way? Because I use multi-user all the time and

01:40:39   I, it works the way I expect it to. What kind of things are you running into?

01:40:43   >> Usually it's like, you know, apps that don't think that they have their registration information

01:40:48   or like they, like Skype keeps trying to install helpers over and over again and it can't. One of

01:40:54   the, oh, and how different Apple IDs work with different passwords and keychain storage, how

01:41:02   somehow on one of the computers, TIFF set up Adam's account using parental control and it's now

01:41:09   entered this state, I haven't done any research on how to fix this, so I'm sorry, everyone's going to

01:41:13   try to email and help me and I appreciate that, but I probably can fix it myself with 10 minutes

01:41:17   of research, but I just haven't done it yet, where it gets to the state where we can't turn off the

01:41:21   parental controls now on his account and they're super obnoxious. Obviously, no one uses Mac

01:41:30   parental controls really, because trying to do anything on an account that has parental controls,

01:41:36   and it's quite a disaster. >> They're both obnoxious and hard to

01:41:39   circumvent, and easy to circumvent rather, so it's a double whammy. The only one that you listed

01:41:45   I've seen is the software, non-Mac App Store, like traditional Mac software that wants you to

01:41:52   register on each account, and I'm not entirely convinced those are bugs because it just could

01:41:55   be their licensing model. Maybe the licensing model is easier and your computer needs to have

01:41:59   a license to it, but other than that, I haven't had any of those issues. The worst I can think

01:42:03   is that maybe it's not entirely clear to me when I'm on one user's account what kind of priority

01:42:10   tasks get on the other user's account, like if there are apps that think they're not running in

01:42:15   the foreground, therefore they're never going to do some check or whatever, but in general,

01:42:19   I've been using it multi-user from day one, and I think it works exactly the way you would expect it

01:42:25   to with no problems, because it is actually baked into the OS. You do actually have your

01:42:28   own home directory. You do actually have your own user. The operating system has no problem

01:42:33   running multiple copies of the same application owned by different users. All works out fine.

01:42:37   - Well, I'm glad it works for you. It works okay for us, but yeah, we do run into weird little

01:42:41   issues here and there. But anyway, so I think the bigger challenge here is that most of the market

01:42:49   doesn't really want this anymore. What it would take from a user perspective, first of all,

01:42:54   say you wanted to share an iPad, the idea of how would that work with things like apps,

01:43:00   with the home screen, with notifications, with a lot of the security stuff, with the store kit.

01:43:05   There are so many things about how it would have to work that would greatly complexify things,

01:43:12   and it doesn't seem like that's necessarily worthwhile. And then finally, the bigger

01:43:17   challenge with this is that market-wise, I think Apple just wants everyone to buy their own devices

01:43:25   and the market largely has accepted that. If you're gonna have multiple people in a household

01:43:30   who are going to want their own stuff on a device, you probably are gonna wind up having them each

01:43:37   have their own device. And even though it costs more money, this also is a world where people's

01:43:43   primary computing device could be a $400 phone or a $300 iPad. And back when the mainstream

01:43:51   computer platforms were designed back in the '80s and '90s, computers cost $2,000. So it was a much

01:43:58   bigger deal that, okay, you're gonna get a $2,000 computer for your household, you're gonna have it

01:44:03   in the computer room or in the den or whatever, and it's gonna be in the computer cabinet and your

01:44:09   family will share this. It was like a major appliance, it was like a washing machine. It

01:44:13   was like your family's gonna share this major appliance, it's a major investment for them,

01:44:16   at this one station in the household. It wasn't like your computer, mom's computer, dad's computer.

01:44:21   It was just like, here is the family computer. And so multiple user accounts were more important,

01:44:26   as things were bigger, more expensive, younger. Now, technology is so ubiquitous and so much of

01:44:33   it is so inexpensive that everyone just gets their own devices. If you can afford to do that,

01:44:39   which is increasingly accessible as devices get cheaper, everyone gets their own devices and

01:44:43   that's fine. And so the usage demand for multi-user stuff on one device is greatly reduced, and the

01:44:53   need for it is greatly reduced at the same time that the OS is now, like the iOS side of things,

01:44:58   it would be harder than ever to add that to them. So that's why I suspect we're not really gonna see

01:45:04   that come to iOS more than it already has as this weird educational hack thing that regular people

01:45:09   don't have access to. Well, at a certain point, it will become a little bit easier, not just because

01:45:14   they're paying down the other tech debt that's lurking in the operating system, just because

01:45:17   the resources will expand. iPhone used to be so RAM-starved and such slow CPUs. Fast forward

01:45:23   20 years, there's a huge amount of RAM in everybody's phones and iPads, and you can afford

01:45:26   to do multi-user switching in an efficient way and all that other stuff. They do have a use case,

01:45:31   it's the education use case. Obviously, it's not very important in the grand scheme of things,

01:45:35   but it's important enough that they implemented that weird hack, and that weird hack is just more

01:45:39   tech debt. So even just to address that customer use case, eventually someone's gonna say, "Hey,

01:45:46   like all our iPads have 32 gigs of RAM in them now, and we've actually cleaned up a lot of the

01:45:51   operating system in iPad OS. We're pretty close to doing a one-year-long project to get real multi-user

01:45:58   for iPad, and we could just have a better implementation of our classroom thing." Doesn't

01:46:01   mean they even need to use it for the other things, for regular consumers. But the second thing is that

01:46:06   there are people with shared devices, especially iPads. iPads cost $1,000 now. Obviously, it's

01:46:12   $1,000 in 2020 money, not $2,000 in 1980 money, but they're not cheap. And because of how regimented

01:46:20   things are, because of how they are such single-user-focused devices, trying to have

01:46:26   someone else use them is disruptive. Not just because you get your kids' YouTube recommendations,

01:46:33   but you can't even unlock the device if it doesn't know who you are, if you're not registered on the...

01:46:36   It doesn't have an awareness of multiple people. Granted, I am an alternate appearance of my wife

01:46:42   and vice versa, but that's stretching the limits so we can just get into our other devices.

01:46:48   It's not an important use case. Apple is correctly prioritizing. There are much more important things

01:46:54   they need to be doing, but it's one of those types of things where, unlike that tech debt coming home

01:47:00   to roost and being a company killer, it'll be more like, "Eventually, we're close enough. We're in

01:47:06   shooting distance of that anyway, and we do actually want to do this thing for the classroom,"

01:47:10   because that's always going to be a shared device situation if Apple keeps its prices the way they

01:47:15   are. A one-to-one iPad thing is very expensive in the grand scheme of things, especially in this

01:47:20   country in terms of how much money we spend on education, that having shared iPads will probably

01:47:26   always make sense in an educational setting. And so, hey, wouldn't it be nice to have a better

01:47:31   version of that? It's a low priority, but I don't think it's a zero priority. And like I said, it's

01:47:37   kind of a shame that if the iPhone had come out five years later, maybe multi-user would have been

01:47:43   baked in from the start, and we would have complained about how slow it was switching

01:47:46   users. But the other way Apple can do with this is, they shouldn't do this, but every time I see

01:47:54   one of these messages about why some of my multi-user are sharing an iOS device or even

01:48:00   sharing a Mac, they have multi-user. But iCloud, signing out of iCloud is another reason I want to

01:48:06   use iCloud Drive. Signing out of iCloud is like the end of the world. You want me to delete every

01:48:12   piece of information so that you have to painfully and hopefully restore it all the next time? It's

01:48:19   a big deal, especially if you have a huge photo library. I will never sign out of my iCloud account

01:48:24   ever anywhere if I can possibly help it. So if you're just like, "Oh, we have an iOS device,

01:48:30   but that is on little Timmy's photo collection. I want to pull that photo. And I don't know about

01:48:37   iCloud.com, the web interface. So how do we do that?" Well, I guess I could just sign out of my

01:48:40   iCloud account and sign into Timmy's. Like, "No, turn back. Don't do it." But if you could just

01:48:45   switch to Timmy's account for a second to grab that, that would be cool. I mean, again, storage

01:48:49   space, RAM, like this, you know, I'm not saying this needs to be done today or tomorrow, but

01:48:52   it's out on the horizon as a piece of tech debt that Apple could address that would make its

01:48:57   devices a little more convenient. And it would be nice for you and your 4-in-8 Macs can do it.

01:49:02   The iOS device, you should be able to do it too. It'd be neat. That way everyone can use their

01:49:06   shared 27-inch iPad that's, you know, in the computer room. Thanks to our sponsors this week,

01:49:13   ExpressVPN and Notion. And we will talk to you next week.

01:49:16   [music]

01:49:20   Now the show is over. They didn't even mean to begin.

01:49:24   'Cause it was accidental. Oh, it was accidental. John didn't do any research.

01:49:32   Marco and Casey wouldn't let him. 'Cause it was accidental. Oh, it was accidental.

01:49:39   And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM. And if you're into Twitter,

01:49:48   you can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S. So that's Casey List, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M,

01:49:58   N-T-M-A-R-C-O-R-M-N-S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A. It's accidental. They didn't mean to.

01:50:12   It was accidental. It was accidental. Tech broadcast so long.

01:50:21   I have excellent, excellent news, gentlemen. The Mark 8 GTI, so this is the brand new,

01:50:29   not yet released GTI, will offer a manual six-speed transmission. John, when

01:50:36   Honda inevitably abandons you, you can come to the Volkswagen Auto Group side of the world.

01:50:42   - And drive around in an ugly hatchback? I think your generation of the Golf R looks way

01:50:49   nicer than this new generation. I'm not a fan of the new look.

01:50:52   - It's okay. The squinty eyes, I don't really, I don't love, but I don't know.

01:50:59   - I don't like those weird fog lights. What are they doing with the five dice dot fog lights?

01:51:05   - Apparently they're fitting it in the, what is that, hexagonal grill. And I don't know why

01:51:10   there's five of them. - The whole grill looks stupid.

01:51:12   - I don't mind the grill. I am a sucker for big front fascia, as I've said many, many times about

01:51:16   the M Sport package on BMWs. But yeah, the fog lights are a little odd to me. I also don't like

01:51:22   that black C just outside the grill area. Do you see what I'm talking about? - Yeah, it's too busy.

01:51:29   - I don't know. It looks okay. I mean, I've seen render, well, not renderings, I've seen some

01:51:35   camouflage pictures of Golf R and it looks okay. I don't know if I'm falling into the same trap as

01:51:41   BMW where the generation of car that I came to the brand, that is the last good one and everything

01:51:47   that comes after is garbage. - Every BMW owner.

01:51:50   - Yeah, 'cause I mean, I'll tell you the last good 3 Series was easily the E90 and the F30 was trash

01:51:55   and whatever the current one is has gotta be garbage too. So I am definitely that when it

01:52:01   comes to BMW and perhaps I'm doing that again with Volkswagen. But I am overjoyed to know that if,

01:52:08   you know, if I ever have a reason to drive anywhere ever again, and if I need to get a

01:52:12   new car for some reason, at least for now, Volkswagen and the GTI trim has me covered.

01:52:18   - I don't like either of these wheels. - What kind of person is deciding to show

01:52:22   a GTI in red? - Why would you? - The whole signature of the GTI is the red line across the

01:52:28   grille. You can't see that when the whole car is red. - I don't know, I mean, I like the GTI pretty

01:52:33   good, the existing one. Obviously, I prefer the R, but you know, it's still a very nice, very fun

01:52:40   car and I'm enthusiastic that this is getting a stick. Now, what will be terrible but hilarious

01:52:45   is if this gets the stick but the R is a DCT only, which would be just my luck. And again,

01:52:50   I'm not looking to replace my car anytime soon. I mean, hell, at this point, I'm ensuring I'm

01:52:55   driving my car every couple of weeks just so it's still functional, you know? - That's all I've done

01:53:00   with my car is go on essentially joyrides to give the car exercise. - Yeah. - I would love to see

01:53:05   your joyride. - The same here. It's got to be the slowest, most boring joyride in the world.

01:53:09   - Oh, there's not a lot of cars on the road. You can, you know, I let the engine warm up a little

01:53:14   bit because I'm old and think that's still a thing and then I go for some high revs. That's fun.

01:53:17   - No, I think that is still a thing. I'm not joking. I really think that is still a thing

01:53:22   where you should have your oil a little bit warmed up before you act like a turd. I mean, look,

01:53:26   Marco's M5, if I'm not mistaken, wasn't your M5 one of the ones where the red line would increase

01:53:32   as the oil got warm? - I don't remember that at all. I mean, I never probably approached the

01:53:36   red line, so I don't know, but yeah. I think what's interesting to me is that you're talking

01:53:42   about this as if you're, as if, you know, this is very likely that by the time you need to buy your

01:53:48   next car, 'cause your current car is what, a year, two years old, something like that? - Year and a

01:53:52   half-ish. - Yeah, so by the time you need to buy your next car, which is probably not for at least

01:53:57   three to five more years, right? - Oh, I hope so, yeah. - Yeah, right, I hope, right? Unless

01:54:02   something goes really wrong with this one. So hopefully, you know, you're talking on like

01:54:05   probably like, you know, a five-ish year time span at the minimum. You honestly think that you're

01:54:11   still gonna have a gas car, or that you're still gonna want to buy a gas car five years from now?

01:54:16   - You know, it's a very good question, and the stubborn child within me says, "Of course,"

01:54:23   'cause I mean, what monster would buy an electric car where you can't shift for yourself, and so on

01:54:28   and so forth, but the reality is-- - There was that one stick shift electric car. - Yeah, I know.

01:54:31   There was that one off build. But the reality of the situation is I'm already sort of giving,

01:54:37   what's the happy equivalent of side eye, you know, 'cause side eye kind of implies anger, but

01:54:41   happy side eye to electric cars. Like my parents, I think we've talked about this on the show,

01:54:45   my parents got a Chevy Bolt, and it's not remarkable, but it's surprisingly great given

01:54:50   what it is. Now, it's also not as cheap as you would hope it would be. You know, it was expensive,

01:54:55   and it's got problems, but by and large, it's much nicer than I expected, and, you know, if Tesla

01:55:03   wasn't completely canceled by now and more affordable, maybe I would consider a Tesla, but

01:55:07   God knows I'm not giving that man any of my money ever. And so, as I think I said to you privately,

01:55:13   Marco, and now I'll say publicly, I cannot wait for us to reboot neutral while you go on the journey

01:55:19   of picking out what replaces your Tesla, because I don't think you should be buying any more Teslas,

01:55:23   or at least not the way things are right now. - Man, does that guy really make it hard to be

01:55:28   a fan of this brand, and I love the cars, the cars are so good, and look, they're not perfect,

01:55:36   no car is ever perfect, but I love this car so much that if I didn't have anything else to consider,

01:55:45   like this guy and his, you know, often offensive behavior, if my car was stolen tomorrow,

01:55:52   and I had to replace it, I would literally get the exact same thing. And I have said that for

01:55:59   the last, what, five years that I've had Model Ss, like, I love this car so much. I actually don't

01:56:07   love the Model 3 that much, other people like it, so that's fine, it has enough fans. I love the

01:56:12   Model S, I absolutely love the Model S. It is my car, and it feels so much like my car, and I love

01:56:18   so much about it, and the things I like about it, nothing else really offers yet, except maybe that

01:56:24   giant Porsche thing, but I honestly, it has some other compromises that I don't love, and it costs

01:56:31   more money, and so, yeah, I'm not super into the Porsche thing, but there's no other car I want to

01:56:36   drive than a Model S. I love it that much. And so I just, I wish that that guy would stop making

01:56:45   an ass of himself so often, because I don't want to have to make excuses for why I drive the car

01:56:51   that I drive, because the car is great, and he just makes such an ass of himself so often,

01:56:58   it's really hard to deal with. - I think this will solve itself, assuming Tesla can A, survive,

01:57:04   and B, get its act together enough, they will ruin your car, because they will eventually make a new

01:57:09   Model S or Model S replacement that is significantly different from your car, and you won't like it,

01:57:14   and they're problem solved, and then you're like, okay, well now suddenly options are open,

01:57:18   they keep buying used Model Ss of my generation, you know, the good generation, back when I first

01:57:23   started buying the Model S, those were the good ones, because honestly, your first Model S,

01:57:27   granted this, you can cosmetically tell them apart very easily, and they've changed a lot in the

01:57:31   interior, but in general, the size, shape, features, layout compromises of the car are the same,

01:57:37   it's got the same number of seats, the same dashboard, the vertical screen in the center,

01:57:41   the shape of the car, it's essentially the quote-unquote first generation Model S,

01:57:46   even though it's been heavily revised. I'm assuming eventually they will make a new Model S,

01:57:52   and if you look at Tesla's recent cars, like the Cybertruck and the new Roadster and the Model 3,

01:57:59   they have different sets of compromises which seem to appeal to you less, so this may solve your

01:58:03   problem for you, you won't be so tempted, and then you'll have to really gauge what is my desire to

01:58:10   have a used, my generation Model S based on battery lifetime and all that stuff.

01:58:15   Oh yeah, no, literally earlier today, I was driving today, and I was literally thinking,

01:58:20   you know, maybe at the end of this lease I might buy it out, because I just like this car so much,

01:58:24   and you know, nothing on the horizon has me particularly excited yet, and you know,

01:58:29   maybe, I mean, I have another roughly year and a half left on this lease, so maybe by the end

01:58:36   of this maybe we'll have a lot more electric car models than one will tempt me, but honestly I

01:58:40   don't see any on the horizon that are tempting yet, and I think...

01:58:44   It'll get you back to BMW, your old favorite.

01:58:46   Yeah, I don't know, there's so much more, there's so much about Tesla that I like better,

01:58:51   like I like so much about like the UI of the car, the app, the key, like so much about it,

01:58:59   like all this little stuff adds up. Yeah, like the CarPlay integration is phenomenal.

01:59:04   Yeah, CarPlay is the one big thing that I wish they had that they don't, but I'd rather interact

01:59:11   with my phone on the little mount, the ProClip USA mount, sponsor, I'd rather interact with that,

01:59:16   and then have the giant screen for all the car stuff, than interact with Tif's cars CarPlay,

01:59:22   because CarPlay, like the way BMW integrates CarPlay is very clumsy. CarPlay is not a like

01:59:30   built-in automatic thing that just works seamlessly, it's like a mode that iDrive's

01:59:36   system can show or not show, and it's very clunky to get in and out of it. Also, frankly,

01:59:41   CarPlay needs a touch screen, so iDrive just uses like the knob in the center console,

01:59:45   and you like wheel through everything with a knob and doesn't have touch screens. CarPlay,

01:59:49   while it works that way, you can navigate CarPlay with knobs, it sucks, it's way better with a

01:59:55   touch screen. I would agree with that, because my car has like a volume knob close to the driver,

02:00:02   and on the passenger side it has like another almost identical knob that's just used for like

02:00:06   scrolling and manipulation and whatnot, and you can use that right side knob for using CarPlay,

02:00:12   which I didn't even realize for months, but you can do it, and I've done it from time to time just

02:00:16   to try it, and it sucks. It definitely sucks, you're right, and even though I stand by sort of

02:00:23   what I said in neutral, that having a touch screen in the car is not the greatest, because you know

02:00:28   you're bouncing around the road and you have this, you know, your finger is so far away from your

02:00:32   shoulder, so it boings even more and so on and so forth, but ultimately I think I would rather have

02:00:37   a touch screen than not, even with all of its troubles and issues with it. So yeah, I can only

02:00:44   imagine that if TIFF's car is still just the knob that it would not be terribly fun, even despite

02:00:50   it being wireless CarPlay, which I'm very jealous of, because mine is wired only and I really wish

02:00:54   it was wireless, but you win some you lose some. Having everything on a touch screen, it sounds

02:00:59   crazy, but now that I've driven a car for five years that has a giant pretty good touch screen,

02:01:05   I can tell you it's fine. It's totally fine. I don't find that it's significantly worse or less

02:01:11   safe or harder to operate or more error prone. I find it's totally fine, and anything about it

02:01:17   that is kind of iffy is down to the design of like, you know, how they've laid out certain controls,

02:01:24   not necessarily like that it's a touch screen or that it isn't a touch screen. And part of this is

02:01:28   like, at least on the Model S, this is not, this is less true in the Model 3, on the Model S,

02:01:32   you actually do have physical controls on the steering wheel and the two stalks that cover so

02:01:38   many common needs that you actually don't use the touch screen as much as you think you would.

02:01:42   On the 3, it's, the 3 has a lot more on the screen and it has like a whole, I think it has one fewer

02:01:47   stalk completely and some of the things you can set are a little bit different, but yes, on the

02:01:52   Model S, it's a really good balance. - You can see your speed right in front of you, imagine that.

02:01:56   - Yeah, right. What a radical idea. Yeah, I don't care for the 3, but I'm glad there's something a

02:02:02   whole lot of them and it's a pretty good car for a lot of people, but it's not for me. But I just,

02:02:06   I love the Model S so much and the reason I was thinking about buying it out is like,

02:02:10   I just want this car and even if Tesla explodes and flames out and goes under, which honestly,

02:02:17   everyone always thinks they're about to do that and I don't follow the finances enough to know, but

02:02:21   they've been around long enough now that I would meet any of those speculations with quite a lot

02:02:27   of skepticism at this point. But man, I just love this car and I love it so much that I'd rather

02:02:34   have the Tesla I have now with no CarPlay than the best possible CarPlay thing that I can think of

02:02:41   that exists in the market today. Now, in the future, if that changes, who knows? Like, I love

02:02:45   that little Honda E concept thing that is still not available in the US, unfortunately. I love

02:02:51   the way that thing looks. That thing looks awesome. I haven't driven one and everyone says it's not

02:02:55   that exciting of a car to drive, but it looks so cool and it's so compact and it's such a fun

02:03:00   little design. The interior looks like it has a really good design too. That I'm very interested

02:03:06   in as just like a fun option, but that's probably not going to come to the US anytime soon.

02:03:11   I think right now I can look at what's on the horizon for the next year and a half

02:03:15   and I can pretty much know what are my options going to be when this lease is up. I don't think

02:03:20   there's any massive bombshells that are going to drop that are, "Oh, all of a sudden this new car

02:03:24   model comes out of nowhere and no one knew about it." No, I think we pretty much know what's going

02:03:28   to be there in a year and a half and I think I'm going to stick with this in some form, whether it's

02:03:32   buying this out or getting a new one that's probably the same. Yeah, you should get a fresh

02:03:36   battery. You don't want to keep using that used battery. I know there's a risk if you get a new

02:03:40   one it might be like, you know, might have some manufacturing problems, the steering wheel might

02:03:44   come off in your hand or whatever, but a fresh battery. I feel like if you're going to buy out

02:03:49   the same model of car, you should really get one of the fresh batteries so it'll last you the longest,

02:03:52   right? So you can wait the longest for something that you like equally as much or better. And I

02:03:58   think if and when you do get a more traditional car with a more traditional interior, one of the

02:04:03   things that you will appreciate is, "Oh, this one physical button that was annoying to get to on the

02:04:07   touchscreen, it's so nice to have a physical button for this one task." Right? Because it still is a

02:04:12   thing. I think even your Model S goes a little bit overboard with the touchscreen just to sort of

02:04:18   prove a point and the Model 3 does it even in a more pigheaded fashion. Knobs and buttons,

02:04:23   they're awesome. I'm not even saying don't have it on the touchscreen, by all means put it there,

02:04:27   but certain things being able to have knobs and buttons were striking that balance is the current

02:04:31   exercise of interior car design. And if you look at all the cars that are out there, forget about

02:04:35   electric, just your cars in general, you've got a touchscreen and you've got knobs and you've got

02:04:38   buttons and you've got stocks. How do you balance your controls among them? I think putting

02:04:43   everything on the screen is the incorrect balance, just like not having a screen at all is the

02:04:47   incorrect balance. You just got to find the right balance and use each input area for its strengths.

02:04:56   And not have some kind of philosophy where like everything's got to be a knob or a button or

02:05:00   everything's got to be on the touchscreen.