377: $10 Worth of Headaches


00:00:00   I have some bad news.

00:00:01   I've just been notified with an email from Apple,

00:00:05   subject aligned, your Apple News channel.

00:00:08   - Oh, it hasn't been updated?

00:00:11   Is this marco.org?

00:00:12   - We noticed that you have not published

00:00:14   to your marco.org channel in three months or more.

00:00:16   Your channel will be removed in one week, period.

00:00:18   - Oh wow, good grief.

00:00:20   - Regards the Apple News team.

00:00:22   - Oh well.

00:00:23   - It doesn't say that if I publish now,

00:00:25   it'll get me out of this.

00:00:26   Like it just says your channel's

00:00:27   gonna be removed in a week, period.

00:00:28   Like there's no if you don't publish.

00:00:31   - Yeah, didn't we have a friend who got the same notice,

00:00:32   but their notice said if you publish something,

00:00:35   it'll reactivate it?

00:00:36   Maybe I'm gonna smear it.

00:00:37   - I think that was Daniel Jalkut, but I don't know.

00:00:39   Anyway, yeah, it's the marco.org channel.

00:00:40   I don't care.

00:00:41   Like I don't know how many,

00:00:44   first of all, I published my channel just as an RSS feed

00:00:47   that I submitted to them in my regular RSS feed.

00:00:49   I don't have any like special Apple News tags.

00:00:51   So I think they were deprecating RSS-based channels anyway,

00:00:54   right, aren't they deprecating them or something?

00:00:56   Anyway.

00:00:57   - I haven't kept up with that.

00:00:58   - I tried to do the same thing,

00:00:59   and something must be wrong about my RSS feed

00:01:01   because they always refused it for reasons

00:01:03   I never quite understood and I didn't care enough to fix it,

00:01:06   and nobody has ever, ever, ever asked me about it.

00:01:09   Now to be fair, I probably have 1/10 of your readership,

00:01:12   but nevertheless, I can't remember a time

00:01:14   that anyone was like, "Hey man,

00:01:15   "can you put that in Apple News?"

00:01:16   - I honestly would be surprised if my readership

00:01:21   could be divided evenly into tenths.

00:01:24   Like I might have eight people reading it in Apple News.

00:01:27   I think it's gonna be a very small number.

00:01:29   - Yeah, I never liked that Apple News app,

00:01:32   and I never tried to get my annually updated blog into it

00:01:35   for multiple reasons.

00:01:38   - Well darn, I guess I'm gonna lose all those eight page views

00:01:42   I don't even measure page views anymore.

00:01:43   - How do they even show up?

00:01:44   Like how would you tell if someone's coming from Apple News

00:01:46   once they have their own user agent?

00:01:48   - I assume there's probably at least

00:01:50   like a crawler user agent, and I would assume

00:01:53   that every time they view the page,

00:01:55   maybe, for the purpose of my report,

00:01:56   I have to sign up for, 'cause I don't think

00:01:58   it's actually making a web request to you each time, right?

00:02:01   - Yeah, you have to go to the special Apple web page

00:02:03   with no API, and you have to look at a graph

00:02:06   where they round things.

00:02:07   - Yeah, right, I have to go to like Apple Web Connect

00:02:09   or something and look at only opt-in stats

00:02:12   for people who viewed my content, and all that, yeah.

00:02:15   I don't even look, like I don't have server logs enabled.

00:02:18   I don't even have Google Analytics enabled anymore.

00:02:20   I haven't for years.

00:02:22   I have, like when I publish something on my site,

00:02:23   I have absolutely no idea how many pages it gets,

00:02:25   and it's incredibly liberating.

00:02:27   Like, I highly recommend, anybody out there

00:02:29   who has stuff online, remove the counters.

00:02:33   You will be shocked how great it feels.

00:02:36   - Or just have nobody visit your site like me,

00:02:38   'cause then you don't have to worry about it either way.

00:02:40   Speaking of Apple's websites where you supposedly

00:02:44   can go to see some kind of number,

00:02:46   you would think that the one web system they would have

00:02:49   that would be, I don't know, accurate, thorough,

00:02:52   fairly well vetted, would be stuff related to the app store,

00:02:55   because that's real money if you don't have a free app.

00:02:57   It's real money traveling back and forth,

00:02:58   and real money, usually people are accounting

00:03:01   for the real money, but boy, they do not make it easy

00:03:05   to figure out what's going, I mean, maybe this is,

00:03:08   maybe this is just me not understanding money.

00:03:09   Granted, I'm not an accountant.

00:03:12   I don't understand the world of finance.

00:03:15   It's very confusing, but I have two apps.

00:03:18   The second most simple thing I can imagine doing

00:03:21   is wondering, in a given pay period,

00:03:23   I'm not gonna say month because I know that finance

00:03:25   is too complicated for pedestrian concepts like months,

00:03:28   in a given pay period, how much money did I make

00:03:33   off of one of my two apps?

00:03:36   But there's no way to tell that.

00:03:37   I mean, they have a report that supposedly gives you

00:03:39   an answer, but the answer is wrong, and I know that

00:03:42   because for one pay period, I only had one month, one app,

00:03:46   and so I could say, now run the report and tell me

00:03:49   how much did that one app make during that pay period,

00:03:51   and it's different than the amount they paid me.

00:03:53   This is their system.

00:03:54   I'm like, well, I'm never gonna know how this works.

00:03:56   It's close, it's like within 2%.

00:03:59   Like maybe refunds or something you're accounting for that?

00:04:01   I don't, so I run the reports and I download them

00:04:05   and I keep them, but it's just like, I don't understand

00:04:08   why these numbers don't match up.

00:04:09   In the end, the money they give me is the money they give me

00:04:11   and I trust that that's the money they're supposed

00:04:13   to be giving me, but you know, try running those reports.

00:04:16   It doesn't make any sense.

00:04:18   - Yeah, it's, so two things.

00:04:20   Number one, I recommend using app figures.

00:04:23   Is this a paid service? - I do.

00:04:24   - This is not an ad, but yeah, app figures I have found

00:04:27   is the best way to kind of make sense of Apple's

00:04:30   weirder reporting and I provide useful graphs and everything.

00:04:34   I've been using them for a long time.

00:04:36   - But the app figures also does not match the amount

00:04:39   I actually receive from Apple.

00:04:40   Again, it's very close.

00:04:42   - Well, they have sales, they also have the payments area.

00:04:44   The payments usually are able to derive

00:04:47   what it actually means.

00:04:47   - Right, but I get one, I don't do what you do,

00:04:50   which I should have, which is like one Apple ID per app,

00:04:53   right, so I have my two apps under one Apple ID.

00:04:55   So they pay me some amount and some of that is attributable

00:04:58   to Switch class and some of it's attributable

00:05:00   to front and center.

00:05:01   How much for each app?

00:05:03   Hell if I know.

00:05:05   I mean, again, you can run the report,

00:05:06   like, you know, filter by parent apps,

00:05:09   you know, like it's in their software

00:05:11   and then they give you a graph that's rounded

00:05:12   and then you can download an Excel thing

00:05:14   that has exact numbers to 500 decimal places, but it's off.

00:05:19   It's so hard to just try to back solve and figure it out.

00:05:21   I mean, sometimes it's off by a few cents or whatever.

00:05:23   It just annoys me.

00:05:25   - Yeah, that's why, like, back forever ago

00:05:27   when I had that stupid idea to have some kind of like

00:05:30   pay overcast $10 a month and then I'll split it up

00:05:33   between the podcast you listen to and distribute it to them.

00:05:36   Like, I was thinking about doing that kind of scheme

00:05:38   before podcasters told me they don't want that surprise.

00:05:40   Nobody wants people getting in the way

00:05:42   of them and their money.

00:05:43   I should have known that before 'cause I'm the same way,

00:05:45   but for some reason I didn't think about that.

00:05:47   Anyway, so one of the problems with that plan

00:05:50   is assuming I'd have to take in-app purchase

00:05:53   because otherwise Apple would never allow it.

00:05:55   Not only would I then lose 30%,

00:05:57   but also I would have no good way to account for like

00:06:02   how much money did I actually receive

00:06:06   from user ID 1234 this month?

00:06:09   'Cause you just get that lump sum payment

00:06:11   and you can't actually know, like,

00:06:14   there's no way to correlate a user ID

00:06:19   to an amount of money you definitely received.

00:06:22   'Cause there's so many different exceptions

00:06:24   and there's things like refunds, cancellations,

00:06:26   there's foreign currency exchange,

00:06:28   which messes everything up.

00:06:29   - Yeah, the exchange stuff is like all the things

00:06:32   that are off it could entirely be attributable

00:06:34   to foreign exchange rates because the reporting,

00:06:36   what you got paid is what the exchange rate was

00:06:38   at the moment of the blah, blah, blah

00:06:39   if you read the big finance agreement,

00:06:40   but then the reporting could be different.

00:06:41   It's very confusing.

00:06:42   - Yeah, and the whole reason why,

00:06:45   or the whole basis of a system like that would be like,

00:06:49   I need to know when, for your $7,

00:06:53   how to split it up between the podcasts you listen to.

00:06:56   And the whole, this actually plays into the whole world

00:06:59   of big services like YouTube Premium or Red,

00:07:02   whatever it's called this month,

00:07:04   or Spotify or Apple Music,

00:07:07   anything where the customers pay a flat rate

00:07:10   and that gets distributed based on whatever they listen to

00:07:12   artists or whatever, the way those work

00:07:15   is incredibly scam prone because they can't do it either.

00:07:20   They also don't track.

00:07:22   Your $5 does not get split between the five artists

00:07:27   you listen to this month.

00:07:29   Everyone's $5 a month goes into a giant pool

00:07:32   and they just track number of listens.

00:07:35   So it doesn't matter if you listen to five artists

00:07:38   this month and a bot somewhere in Russia

00:07:41   listened to 100,000 artists this month,

00:07:43   your money's all pooled together first

00:07:46   and then it's divided up by views.

00:07:48   So you might think that you are helping

00:07:50   the three bands you listen to a lot

00:07:52   because you only listen to three bands

00:07:53   on Spotify this month or whatever,

00:07:54   but no, you're not helping them at all.

00:07:56   You'd be helping them a lot more

00:07:57   if you left everything streaming all day 24/7.

00:08:00   And there's this whole ecosystem of scams and click farms

00:08:03   and all this other crap to increase view counts

00:08:05   and time spent listening and stuff like that

00:08:08   to skim off more of the pool than what they

00:08:11   actually have earned.

00:08:12   It's a whole thing.

00:08:13   And so of course I didn't wanna deal with any of that

00:08:15   and my stupid plan wouldn't have really worked

00:08:18   that way anyway, but the reason why no one does that

00:08:21   is because it's too hard to track how much money

00:08:25   you actually got from each individual person each month.

00:08:29   - Yeah, and in the end you're trusting the same company

00:08:33   to do accounting on itself, right?

00:08:36   It's all sort of like an honor system, right?

00:08:39   So I mean, and they have no particular reason

00:08:41   until they start getting payola from the record companies

00:08:44   to use some lingo from the '70s or whatever.

00:08:47   But Apple doesn't have any particular reason

00:08:50   to lie to you about how much money your app is making, right?

00:08:53   But it's like anything else, you just swell.

00:08:56   That's my instinctual first feeling

00:09:00   when the App Store was announced,

00:09:02   is that people are going to stop receiving checks

00:09:05   from customers and start receiving checks

00:09:06   that are signed by Apple.

00:09:08   It seems like it's the same thing, but it's not.

00:09:11   - It's way better than it used to be though.

00:09:12   It used to be, for the first I think two or three years

00:09:15   of the App Store, you would get paid in wire transfers

00:09:20   from I think seven or so different places around the world,

00:09:23   from various Apple subsidiaries for different regions.

00:09:26   And so every month you would get seven wire transfers,

00:09:30   six of which were foreign wire transfers.

00:09:33   So depending on your bank account,

00:09:34   you might be paying hundreds of dollars a month

00:09:36   in wire fees, and then you have to resolve,

00:09:39   like all right, you have seven different deposits,

00:09:42   and it was a crazy setup.

00:09:44   And then fortunately a couple years in,

00:09:45   they fixed it to just have one direct deposit.

00:09:47   And that's how it happened. - I got two.

00:09:49   I got two this last pay period.

00:09:50   I got two Apple deposits.

00:09:53   - Oh, really?

00:09:54   - I don't understand why.

00:09:55   - Is one of them a different, the other app?

00:09:57   Actually, yeah, it's one per Apple ID.

00:09:59   Oh no, 'cause you don't have--

00:10:00   - That's right, I just have the one,

00:10:03   I'm just selling both through a single app.

00:10:04   'Cause I have received payments for months

00:10:07   when both were for sale, and I got one payment.

00:10:10   All right, this time I got two payments, which is fine.

00:10:12   Like if they wanna send me three payments, four payments,

00:10:14   just keep sending me money.

00:10:15   It's just mysterious.

00:10:16   I just noticed them as separate line items

00:10:18   in my bank account.

00:10:19   I'm like, huh, that's funny.

00:10:20   Why would they send me, it's the right amount.

00:10:21   Like if you add them together,

00:10:23   it's like, yep, there it is, that's all.

00:10:25   This is weird.

00:10:26   I'm still angry about the fact

00:10:28   that I couldn't change my company name.

00:10:30   Did I complain about that on the show at some point?

00:10:32   - No. - I was so angry about it

00:10:33   when it happened, but by the time we recorded,

00:10:35   I had chilled out and realized it doesn't actually matter.

00:10:37   But boy, in the moment I was angry.

00:10:38   I actually sent, the closest I've ever gotten

00:10:41   to sendering an angry email was a reply

00:10:44   to some poor, helpful person who was trying to tell me

00:10:46   that what I wanted to do was not possible,

00:10:48   and I was like, this is dumb.

00:10:50   That's how angry I get in emails.

00:10:52   I literally wrote, this is dumb.

00:10:54   - Wow, really spitting fire there, John.

00:10:56   - Thumbs down.

00:10:57   - I just, like, I was angry,

00:10:59   but I didn't wanna say something that was angry,

00:11:01   but I'm like, what can I say that's not based on emotion

00:11:03   but is true?

00:11:04   I'm like, you know what, this is actually dumb.

00:11:06   That is a truthful statement.

00:11:08   What I'm talking about is, since I had just freshly signed up

00:11:12   for my developer account and all that stuff,

00:11:16   I remembered at some point during the process,

00:11:18   there was something, you guys might not remember this

00:11:20   'cause it was so long ago that you signed up,

00:11:22   maybe when Marco did it, this didn't even exist.

00:11:24   It was like, oh, and by the way,

00:11:26   as you're clicking through these things

00:11:27   and typing stuff in boxes, if you'd like your product

00:11:30   to show up on the store with a different name

00:11:32   that's visible to customers, type that name here.

00:11:35   And at the time I signed up, I was doing it as just me,

00:11:37   like my name, right?

00:11:39   And so I'm like, no, I don't want that, right?

00:11:40   Just John Sarcusa is fine, that'll show up

00:11:42   as the developer on the store.

00:11:44   And I did that for a while.

00:11:46   And eventually I made myself a company

00:11:48   and switched it over to that, and that took like

00:11:50   a month and a half to get through all that red tape.

00:11:52   And I'm like, and then I went to the app store

00:11:54   and I realized that my name was no longer visible,

00:11:56   and if you had to search on my name,

00:11:57   you didn't find me anymore.

00:11:58   I'm like, oh, that's bad.

00:11:59   If someone searches for a name,

00:12:00   I want them to find my apps, right?

00:12:02   And of course you can't add it to keywords

00:12:03   without releasing a new version, but that's a separate issue.

00:12:05   So I'm like, oh, I'll just change the company name back

00:12:08   and I'll just have it say my name again,

00:12:09   'cause there's that field where you can change

00:12:11   what it says underneath your app to be something different

00:12:13   than your actual legal entity thing.

00:12:16   And I searched and searched and couldn't find it

00:12:19   and asked a bunch of people in developer slacks that I'm in

00:12:22   and went through all the help, and someone's like,

00:12:24   oh, I did that, my company changed their name

00:12:27   to this and that and the other thing.

00:12:28   And it just, eventually I kept running to dead ends

00:12:31   and I went through their official help system

00:12:34   and got people and I called them on the phone

00:12:37   and I had people telling me-

00:12:38   - Like an animal.

00:12:39   - Yeah, people were telling me we've done this twice.

00:12:42   In fact, we've changed our name twice, right?

00:12:44   And it's complicated by all the people

00:12:45   who actually did something slightly different.

00:12:47   I think both of you have a single person LLC

00:12:52   that's a disregarded entity for tax purposes.

00:12:55   It's really just me.

00:12:56   It's like legally and in all other ways, it's exactly me.

00:13:00   So changing my company name to my name on the app store

00:13:03   is not like misleading or anything like that.

00:13:05   And I forget the exact details, but the basically,

00:13:08   I said, I remember seeing that field or whatever.

00:13:11   And the person was like,

00:13:12   when you're doing the initial setup,

00:13:14   you can enter a registered trade name.

00:13:15   I don't know what that is, but whatever.

00:13:16   It sounds like a legal thing, a DBA,

00:13:18   which is I'm pretty sure doing business as

00:13:19   or a fictitious business name.

00:13:21   This cannot be edited or updated later.

00:13:24   So during the process, you can enter,

00:13:27   it sounds like anything, fictitious business name.

00:13:29   You can just make it up like whoopity doo,

00:13:32   like this is on the app store.

00:13:33   It's gonna say whoopity doo apps,

00:13:35   which is not even a thing.

00:13:36   It's not a legal entity in any way.

00:13:40   But once you've done that during setup,

00:13:42   you could never change it again.

00:13:44   And it will always be, what it will be is it will always be

00:13:46   the legal entity that Apple has considers.

00:13:49   So when I changed from me to an individual to my company,

00:13:51   it became my company.

00:13:52   Can I change it back to my name?

00:13:53   No, this cannot be edited or updated later.

00:13:58   And that's what I said was dumb.

00:13:59   I said, this is dumb.

00:14:01   And unless I don't understand,

00:14:02   'cause for all I know fictitious business name

00:14:04   is a legal term that I don't understand

00:14:05   'cause I'm not a smart business person.

00:14:08   But anyway, I was so angry that I couldn't just change it

00:14:10   back to my name, but by the time we recorded,

00:14:11   I had calmed down.

00:14:12   But now all of a sudden, I'm angry about it again

00:14:13   for some reason.

00:14:15   - No, I mean, ever since the beginning of the app store,

00:14:19   the process of changing your company name

00:14:22   or changing the name on your developer account

00:14:25   has always been effectively you can't do that

00:14:29   no matter what.

00:14:30   Now in reality, it's like, okay, if you know someone

00:14:32   or you email somebody at Apple

00:14:34   and you can get the right person, they can actually do it,

00:14:37   but the process apparently is very difficult.

00:14:39   I have never succeeded in doing it,

00:14:41   but I know people who have.

00:14:42   If you can call and get the right person

00:14:45   on the phone somehow or if you just get lucky

00:14:46   with who you talk to, that kind of thing,

00:14:48   which is annoying.

00:14:50   And it's the kind of thing that you would think

00:14:52   this would be easier.

00:14:54   So initially, you couldn't do it at all

00:14:55   no matter what, period.

00:14:56   Down the road, they added a special case

00:15:00   where if your company was sold to somebody else,

00:15:03   then you could change the account to be the new owner,

00:15:08   like a one-time change, and you had to send in

00:15:09   all this paperwork to prove that it was bought

00:15:12   by someone else.

00:15:13   So that might be an avenue for you.

00:15:16   Maybe you could say that John Siracusa has bought

00:15:19   Mac Pro LLC or whatever and tried to get it changed that way,

00:15:23   but I don't think that would work.

00:15:26   - According to entrepreneur.com,

00:15:28   fictitious business name is a similar thing

00:15:30   to doing business as, and as with all these things

00:15:33   in these lovely United States that we live in,

00:15:35   anytime you read anything having to do with business stuff,

00:15:38   they always have to hedge because it's always like,

00:15:40   in some states, X, Y, and Z is true.

00:15:42   So that's exactly what this thing says.

00:15:44   In some states, you have to register

00:15:46   your fictitious business name with the state.

00:15:49   Some states, you have to pay a fee,

00:15:51   but that also implies that in other states,

00:15:52   you don't have to.

00:15:53   So basically, if I really, really, really wanted

00:15:55   to make this happen, in theory, I could,

00:15:58   I never knew I could get a doing business as,

00:16:00   but I could probably also get a fictitious business name

00:16:02   if that's a thing that my state supports,

00:16:04   and get a legal filing to say, yeah, my company name,

00:16:08   the fictitious business name is my name.

00:16:10   But again, I will cite, and this is not the stupidity

00:16:12   of Apple, it's probably just the stupidity of law,

00:16:15   that's dumb because my LLC is a sole proprietor,

00:16:17   not a sole proprietorship, my LLC is a single-member LLC.

00:16:20   It's just me.

00:16:21   We are the same legal entity.

00:16:23   So I shouldn't have to get a DBA or a fictitious business

00:16:26   to say I can use my own name.

00:16:28   - Objection, Your Honor.

00:16:29   There's a problem with that logic.

00:16:30   The whole point of an LLC is to separate.

00:16:34   - I know, it's not the same as a legal entity.

00:16:36   I'm considered the same for tax purposes.

00:16:38   The tax is passed through, yes, you're right.

00:16:39   It's a different legal entity.

00:16:41   - However, I think this is why,

00:16:43   like LLCs in most states, at least, if not all of them,

00:16:46   are required to have LLC at the end of their name.

00:16:49   Corporations have Inc or Corp or whatever,

00:16:51   and the reason why, I think, if I remember correctly

00:16:54   from how this was explained to me like 15 years ago,

00:16:56   is so that people know, if you say,

00:17:01   I'm doing business with John Syracuse, period,

00:17:04   then your customers might think that the fullness

00:17:07   of John Syracuse is there to back it up liability-wise.

00:17:11   If they come to sue you and you say,

00:17:12   well, actually, you're not really suing me,

00:17:15   you're suing this LLC that you didn't even know was there,

00:17:18   and that LLC has $1 to its name,

00:17:20   and so, sorry, that's all you can get.

00:17:22   - So then how can you have a doing business as at all, though?

00:17:25   - That probably varies per state

00:17:26   with the requirements of that,

00:17:27   but I don't think you can say doing business

00:17:30   as your own personal name with no suffix or anything.

00:17:34   I think the whole point--

00:17:36   - You can only pick another name that ends in LLC.

00:17:37   - Or a name that is clearly not yours, probably.

00:17:41   Again, I'm not a lawyer,

00:17:42   but I'm pretty sure that's why these rules are there,

00:17:44   so you probably can't just say,

00:17:47   okay, I'm operating an LLC,

00:17:49   but I'm gonna not say that anywhere.

00:17:50   I'm just gonna say I'm John Syracuse,

00:17:52   'cause that would probably expose you personally

00:17:54   to liability.

00:17:56   Anybody could then probably sue you and say,

00:17:58   well, you kind of broke the LLC seal there,

00:18:01   and so you're not really attracted by it.

00:18:03   - Yeah, there's a whole bunch of legal stuff about,

00:18:05   I forget what it's called, there's a term for it.

00:18:06   If you do stuff with your company

00:18:08   that mixes your personal stuff with it too much--

00:18:11   - Yeah, exactly.

00:18:12   They can basically say,

00:18:13   you're not really operating this correctly,

00:18:14   and so therefore, you don't get the protection.

00:18:16   That's why I always recommend,

00:18:18   if you're gonna have an app, make money,

00:18:19   have an LLC, do everything under that LLC,

00:18:22   have a separate bank account

00:18:23   that the only transactions are for the business,

00:18:26   it has no other transactions,

00:18:28   it just keeps everything so much cleaner,

00:18:29   and it protects you a lot better

00:18:31   than any kind of weird jumbled arrangement.

00:18:34   - Yeah, and that's why I think all the people

00:18:35   who say they did this probably just changed

00:18:37   from one legal name to another,

00:18:40   from one corporation name to another corporation name,

00:18:42   or something like that, 'cause that's hard enough.

00:18:44   - Just changing it from my name to LLC was a pain,

00:18:46   and took a long time, right?

00:18:48   And I suppose you could do doing business as,

00:18:49   like, I was just looking at Microsoft's,

00:18:51   Microsoft's has Microsoft Corporation on it,

00:18:52   so maybe they're all like that.

00:18:54   So anyway, it still strikes me as dumb,

00:18:58   but I feel like the person who was helping me,

00:19:01   had they just explained what Marco just explained,

00:19:04   I would've been less angry, 'cause I'd be like,

00:19:05   oh, okay, 'cause I cited fictitious business name,

00:19:08   and be like, look, you don't understand,

00:19:09   fictitious business name is not what you think it is,

00:19:11   and the whole thing about the LLC suffix, or whatever,

00:19:14   like, I could've been walked off this ledge, but I wasn't,

00:19:17   so I got mad and said it was dumb.

00:19:19   But then I gave up on it, so, you know,

00:19:22   I did the right thing in the end,

00:19:23   which is, don't worry about it.

00:19:24   And then I just waited and waited for me

00:19:26   to do my next app update,

00:19:27   so I could put my name in the keywords.

00:19:29   - I should do that too, I never thought about that.

00:19:31   - Let me see if it works, I didn't even test it.

00:19:33   No one's buying my app anymore, but.

00:19:34   Hey, everyone in the chat room,

00:19:35   go buy another copy of my app, it's great.

00:19:38   - Me too, me too, me too.

00:19:40   I want some of that.

00:19:41   - His has some sort of memory problem, you don't want that.

00:19:43   - Aww.

00:19:44   - Hey, I got, oh, wow, someone put my name

00:19:47   in the keywords of their app.

00:19:49   Hmm, I don't know how I feel about that.

00:19:52   Oh, it's a cool app, I like this app,

00:19:54   so I guess it's good, I don't know.

00:19:55   - You're not supposed to like the spammers app.

00:19:57   - No, it's not like a, it's another app,

00:20:00   that someone was talking to me about the beta test,

00:20:01   and beta testing it, it's an app

00:20:03   that they thought I would like, and they're right,

00:20:05   it is an app that I would like.

00:20:07   I don't know where my name appears,

00:20:08   it could be in the keywords.

00:20:09   Anyway, downloading their app now.

00:20:11   Yeah, one of my, I have to wait,

00:20:14   I haven't updated front and center in a while,

00:20:15   but the next time I do, I will add my name to the keywords.

00:20:18   (electronic beeping)

00:20:20   - All right, so let's start the show with some follow-up.

00:20:24   I presume that neither John nor Marco

00:20:28   have looked at Instagram in the last,

00:20:31   45 minutes to an hour?

00:20:32   - Incorrect, I saw your little thingy.

00:20:34   - If you look at my Insta stories,

00:20:35   you will see that I got some treats today,

00:20:38   and I have been messing about with all the Raspberry Pis.

00:20:42   So in my Insta story, if you're not on Instagram,

00:20:45   or don't care to look,

00:20:46   what you'll see is me taking a read switch,

00:20:50   which is a little magnetic switch,

00:20:52   and moving it close to the other half of it,

00:20:54   and out, and close, and then away,

00:20:56   and close, and then away,

00:20:57   and a little LED in the background,

00:20:58   lighting, and going off, and lighting, and then going off.

00:21:01   And that is my physical proof of concept

00:21:04   that everything, including my hilariously bad

00:21:07   soldering, has worked.

00:21:10   So I now have two Raspberry Pi Zero Ws,

00:21:15   so those are not at all the same as what I had.

00:21:18   What I had is like the big boy Raspberry Pi,

00:21:20   the Raspberry Pi 4.

00:21:21   Now I have two Raspberry Pi Zero Ws,

00:21:24   which are literally $10 computers

00:21:27   that have wireless and Bluetooth on them.

00:21:30   So what I have is, as described last time

00:21:34   in my ridiculously overcomplicated Rube Goldberg setup,

00:21:38   what I have is a setup wherein one of the Raspberry Pis

00:21:43   is just detecting this magnetic read switch,

00:21:46   and then sending a multicast message to the other one,

00:21:48   which is saying it's open, it's closed,

00:21:50   it's open, it's closed,

00:21:51   and then that other one will light or extinguish an LED.

00:21:56   Now, since we last spoke,

00:21:59   a lot of people have written in

00:22:00   to share all sorts of completely legitimate,

00:22:02   and considerably easier, and in many arguments,

00:22:04   better approaches to fix this problem,

00:22:07   but I don't care, because I wanted to fix it this way,

00:22:10   because it's fun, and I wanted to get some of this

00:22:12   kind of weird nervous energy out of my system,

00:22:14   which we talk about in the forthcoming analog,

00:22:16   which won't be out until a few days after this episode.

00:22:19   But anyway, the other thing I've learned in the last week

00:22:22   is that there are four connectors

00:22:27   on the back of my garage door opener.

00:22:30   Two of them seem to be just like a constant power.

00:22:35   One of them is connected to the sensors

00:22:38   at the bottom of the garage door,

00:22:39   so they know if one of the kids runs through

00:22:41   whilst the garage door's closing,

00:22:42   then it would stop the garage door from closing.

00:22:45   And the other one is connected to the switch in the wall.

00:22:47   And it appears that all you need to do

00:22:50   to tell the garage door to open or close

00:22:53   is just connect the common line,

00:22:56   or the always powered line,

00:22:58   to the line coming from the switch in the wall.

00:23:01   So to test this theory, I did what I shouldn't have done,

00:23:04   but it worked, is I took a pair of pliers

00:23:07   and just connected it,

00:23:08   physically touched it to the two screws,

00:23:10   one of which is the common line,

00:23:12   and one of which is the line from the wall unit,

00:23:15   and sure enough, the garage door started closing.

00:23:17   And then I did it again, and it started opening.

00:23:19   What this means is, with a relay,

00:23:22   I should be able to open and close the garage door

00:23:24   from the Raspberry Pi.

00:23:25   And so I have a relay, which I have not even opened yet,

00:23:28   but my next mission is to hack together

00:23:30   my own completely bespoke HomeKit-enabled

00:23:33   garage door setup.

00:23:34   Why?

00:23:35   Because I can, and because it's fun.

00:23:37   And I'm having a lot of fun,

00:23:39   and it's stunning to me that I actually made this work.

00:23:43   - I have some design notes for your,

00:23:45   based on your Instagram thing.

00:23:47   - Oh, it looks like utter garbage, and it's terrible.

00:23:50   And you should not see-- - It's not that.

00:23:52   It's something bigger.

00:23:53   So I may be wrong,

00:23:57   but my guess is that you are overestimating

00:24:01   the precision of your garage door with those sensors.

00:24:04   Like, when you're holding the sensors up to each other

00:24:06   and saying, "Look, open, closed, open, closed,"

00:24:07   you're assuming that the door will come

00:24:11   to a closed position with such precision

00:24:14   that those two things will be anywhere close enough

00:24:16   to each other and aligned with each other

00:24:18   to actually activate.

00:24:19   When you're doing it with your hand, it works great.

00:24:21   When you're doing it with the garage door,

00:24:22   I can imagine there being up to a centimeter gap

00:24:24   in any direction.

00:24:26   - Yeah, that's theoretically true,

00:24:28   but let me remind you that, as we discussed last week,

00:24:31   when I was at Dub-Dub a year or two ago,

00:24:33   the garage door completely buckled,

00:24:35   and we got a whole new garage door

00:24:36   and a whole new garage door opener.

00:24:37   So this is not one of the 20-year-old, god-awful,

00:24:41   extremely loud, extremely rickety garage door openers,

00:24:44   or at least not yet.

00:24:45   But I do take your point, and you very well may be right.

00:24:48   I haven't even attempted to mount these little sensors,

00:24:51   so to speak, on the garage door or anywhere near it.

00:24:55   But my hope is that it'll at least

00:24:57   be able to get close enough.

00:24:59   - Maybe.

00:24:59   I mean, what kind of tolerances do we have?

00:25:01   Do we have Apple-style iPhone tolerances

00:25:04   on your garage door where it's submillimeter precision

00:25:06   where this door comes to rest

00:25:07   in exactly the same spot every time?

00:25:09   I guess we'll find out.

00:25:10   - Yeah, we will find out.

00:25:11   That's part of tomorrow's mission as well.

00:25:12   If I'm procrastinating on doing vignette image-related work

00:25:16   and memory-related work, then I'll be trying to mount all this

00:25:18   and see if I can get that going.

00:25:21   We have some other follow-up from Colin McKellar,

00:25:23   who wrote in with regard to ARM predictions.

00:25:25   So we had said last episode that we couldn't remember

00:25:28   when each of us had wagered the ARM transition,

00:25:31   if it happens, would happen.

00:25:32   And Colin wrote that in episode 285,

00:25:35   starting at about three minutes and 48 seconds

00:25:38   into the episode, and this was from the 30th of July, 2018,

00:25:43   we had made predictions.

00:25:45   And according to Colin, and I didn't verify

00:25:48   if this was exactly right, but I take them at their word,

00:25:52   I had said sometime in five to 10 years from 2018,

00:25:54   which puts that at 2023 through 2028,

00:25:58   with the first Mac definitely by 2023.

00:26:01   I think the context was when would the transition start

00:26:04   and when would it be done?

00:26:05   John said, you had said it would be done in 10 years,

00:26:08   which is 2028, with a fast transition once it starts.

00:26:11   However, in episode 306, at about an hour and 36 minutes,

00:26:15   apparently you had said you would be surprised

00:26:17   if there were no ARM Macs by 2021.

00:26:20   Marco was the most aggressive and bold.

00:26:22   You had said the first one within two years,

00:26:24   which would put that at about mid 2020, mid this year,

00:26:27   and the last Intel Mac sold within five years,

00:26:30   which would be about 2023, and then finally Colin

00:26:33   also noted that on the talk show,

00:26:36   specifically episode 227, Gruber had noted

00:26:38   that he think it'll be announced last year

00:26:40   with a transition this year.

00:26:42   So we'll see what happens.

00:26:43   - I feel pretty good about that.

00:26:46   I think this summer is probably too soon,

00:26:48   as I said at the beginning of my range yet,

00:26:52   but I bet it's not by that much.

00:26:54   I'm guessing it's probably gonna be at the earliest,

00:26:57   possibly this fall, at the latest, probably next fall.

00:27:01   - Yeah, the problem with all these predictions

00:27:03   is they were like in 2018-ish,

00:27:04   and that's a little bit too close,

00:27:05   'cause by then we had rumors and we were all informed

00:27:09   by the same stories coming out of it,

00:27:11   leaked type stuff coming out of Apple.

00:27:13   It's just the difficulty of predictions

00:27:15   that are close to the event.

00:27:17   We start getting some real information,

00:27:18   and it's not just hunches.

00:27:20   That's why we're all clustered around this kind of thing.

00:27:23   It's just a question of how long do we expand out.

00:27:25   And I don't remember this conversation,

00:27:27   but I imagine my 10-year thing was like,

00:27:28   well, one Mac could hold on for a really long time,

00:27:31   presumably the Mac Pro, but who knows?

00:27:33   So it could, but I'm saying by 10 years,

00:27:35   this has gotta be done.

00:27:36   What I was basically probably railing against there

00:27:38   was the idea that they're gonna permanently keep

00:27:40   the Mac Pro x86 or something,

00:27:43   and I just don't see that happening.

00:27:44   - So the other thing we had talked about

00:27:47   at some point in the past,

00:27:48   and we didn't talk about this last week, did we?

00:27:50   What is gonna be the first Mac to go ARM?

00:27:52   - We've talked about it before.

00:27:54   - You know, we've absolutely talked about it before.

00:27:55   I'm saying, what do you think now?

00:27:57   - Yeah, and before, I think we said the 12 inch,

00:27:59   which no longer exists technically.

00:28:01   It could come back. - Could exist again.

00:28:02   - Right, it could come back as that.

00:28:04   I think if I had to guess,

00:28:07   I'm gonna guess the MacBook Air.

00:28:08   - I don't know if it's gonna be a single,

00:28:11   like you're saying, is it gonna be one Mac?

00:28:12   I mean, I suppose it could.

00:28:13   There's no reason.

00:28:15   But obviously we're thinking laptop,

00:28:18   because that makes the most sense,

00:28:19   and then it's just a question of which laptop,

00:28:21   could it be all the laptops?

00:28:22   I was still kind of rooting for that thing.

00:28:24   Apple hasn't done it in a while.

00:28:25   They've been much more sort of conservative,

00:28:27   where you pick a guinea pig machine, you do it,

00:28:29   and it eventually rolls out to the other products, right?

00:28:31   But I kind of miss the days when they would just say,

00:28:33   guess what, here's our new line of ARM-powered laptops,

00:28:35   and it's all of them.

00:28:36   It's the Air, the 13 inch MacBook Pro

00:28:38   that we'll talk about later, and the 16 inch.

00:28:39   It's just three computers, Apple could do it.

00:28:42   So that's not my prediction, but that's what I'm rooting for.

00:28:44   My prediction, yeah, I'm gonna go with the Air.

00:28:48   In the current lineup, that's what I'm gonna say.

00:28:50   - You know, I would say the same,

00:28:51   but Marco's really messed with my mind

00:28:54   by saying it's something new.

00:28:55   I wonder if it would be something new.

00:28:58   It could be the--

00:28:59   - I said the Air. - The 12 inch.

00:29:00   He said the Air, he just mentioned like,

00:29:02   the 12 inch could come back in the form of a new fanless--

00:29:05   - Right, that's what I'm talking about.

00:29:07   I don't know if it would necessarily be the 12 inch,

00:29:09   but it wouldn't surprise me if there's some sort of

00:29:11   new thing, a la the Air when it was brand new,

00:29:14   or perhaps the adorable when it was brand new.

00:29:17   You know, something-- - Like an iOS laptop, yeah.

00:29:19   - Like an iOS laptop, you never know.

00:29:20   Things could get crazy.

00:29:22   - I mean, you could also argue though,

00:29:23   that like, the 11 inch iPad with various keyboard options

00:29:26   that are now available, satisfies a lot of that need

00:29:29   for a super tiny laptop.

00:29:31   That was previously solved by the 12 inch.

00:29:33   But ultimately, the reason I guess the MacBook Air

00:29:35   is that it's just such a massive hit.

00:29:38   It hits such a sweet spot of needs for most people

00:29:42   being pretty well satisfied.

00:29:44   Really the one area that the MacBook Air

00:29:47   really is not so great at is CPU performance.

00:29:51   And so that's the area where ARM could really help there.

00:29:53   Like, it's not so great in CPU performance

00:29:55   because they need a super low wattage part from Intel

00:29:58   to fit that chassis and thermal design.

00:30:00   And Intel, this is like, this is the best Intel can do

00:30:02   with that wattage.

00:30:03   I bet Apple could do better.

00:30:05   - And no one's gonna argue against getting

00:30:07   more battery life as well, right?

00:30:08   So it's a crowd pleaser, that computer.

00:30:11   Put an ARM in that thing and no one's gonna question

00:30:13   why this computer exists and what the benefits might be.

00:30:16   - Yeah, I would buy one immediately.

00:30:17   Like day one, an ARM MacBook Air, I would buy it immediately.

00:30:22   'Cause the current MacBook Air,

00:30:24   again, it's wonderful in many ways.

00:30:26   It really is an amazing size.

00:30:29   Like, even the previous one with the butterfly keyboard,

00:30:32   I never bought one, but I handled one a few times.

00:30:36   Like in a store, and if people would have one,

00:30:38   I'd pick it up and play with it.

00:30:40   And it felt great.

00:30:42   Like, it's a great feeling form factor.

00:30:44   That just the size and the wedge shape really feels good.

00:30:48   And they've done a good job with the other physical stuff,

00:30:49   like the hinge and everything too.

00:30:50   But like, you know, I love my 16 inch,

00:30:53   and I'm glad I have it most of the time I'm using it.

00:30:55   But I can't deny there is a very strong appeal

00:30:58   of like a super small laptop that can still somehow

00:31:01   make a good balance of like screen size

00:31:03   and power and everything else.

00:31:04   And the current Air is just a little bit too slow.

00:31:07   We'll get to this later when we talk about the 13 inch.

00:31:09   The current Air is a little bit too slow for me.

00:31:11   I would feel that pretty frequently.

00:31:13   But an ARM version could plausibly be faster enough

00:31:18   to really close that gap between it and the current Pros,

00:31:20   or even surpass them.

00:31:22   - The other angle on this is the other,

00:31:24   like the second most likely, or maybe it's tied.

00:31:28   If you think about it, you know,

00:31:29   we keep thinking like which computer would benefit most

00:31:31   from ARM, where does it make sense to have ARM,

00:31:33   yada yada yada.

00:31:33   All those are factors, but the other factor is like,

00:31:36   okay, but this will be the first one.

00:31:37   So it's gonna have the most growing pains,

00:31:39   and do you really wanna put those growing pains

00:31:41   and those compromises and have to explain it to buyers

00:31:43   who are our most popular product?

00:31:45   Or, and I think this is what they do with Intel,

00:31:47   or do you want to instead put it in the 16 inch?

00:31:49   Just because so few people buy that,

00:31:51   and the people who buy it know what they're getting into

00:31:52   in terms of whatever emulation there might be,

00:31:54   or compatibility concerns, you know what I mean?

00:31:56   To let the more expensive lower volume computer

00:31:59   be the first one just to shake out all the kinks

00:32:02   and get it settled because by putting it in the MacBook Air,

00:32:05   there's probably best selling Mac,

00:32:08   then now you have this thing that you have to explain

00:32:10   to people, especially if you don't sell the x86 one anymore.

00:32:12   It's like, oh, I was gonna get a Mac,

00:32:14   but I hear they don't run their software right anymore,

00:32:16   or something or other, right?

00:32:17   That's the risk with doing it on your most popular computer

00:32:20   to begin with.

00:32:21   Doesn't mean they're not gonna do it,

00:32:22   that's just the opposite argument,

00:32:23   then the way that you could end up having it in

00:32:27   the top end laptop first, right?

00:32:29   Put it in the Mac Pro first if the first one they make

00:32:31   is 64 cores, but I'm not holding my breath for that.

00:32:34   - You know, if you'll permit me to go back a step,

00:32:35   I forgot to mention a small tale of woe I had

00:32:38   with my new treats that I got today.

00:32:41   So I had ordered the Pi Zero W, as I had mentioned,

00:32:45   and again, this is a single board $10 computer,

00:32:48   and I didn't get one of the overpriced starter packs

00:32:53   that has a case and a power supply and all this other junk

00:32:56   because I didn't need that, I knew what I was doing,

00:32:59   or so I thought.

00:33:01   One of the things that I needed,

00:33:04   or basically in order to get these things started,

00:33:06   what happens is that you can choose to buy,

00:33:09   and I did, a SD card that has something called NOOBS

00:33:13   pre-installed on it, N-O-O-B-S.

00:33:15   What that basically does is it lets you decide

00:33:17   what OS you wanna put on that card,

00:33:19   and it'll do like an internet restore

00:33:21   in order to install that OS.

00:33:23   And so generally speaking, you would just install

00:33:25   the Raspberry Pi, a Raspbian Linux distribution,

00:33:28   and that'll be that.

00:33:29   And so I had ordered a couple of 16 gig SD cards

00:33:33   for these little computers, and that had NOOBS on it,

00:33:35   and so the first order of business

00:33:37   in order to get everything working is to go ahead

00:33:40   and plug in a keyboard to the Raspberry Pi Zero W

00:33:43   and plug in my TV that's operating as an HDMI monitor.

00:33:48   And so I didn't order any sort of dongles

00:33:51   or anything with this because I did get,

00:33:53   with my Pi 4, dongles for HDMI,

00:33:57   and it has USB ports and so on and so forth.

00:34:00   I go to set the first one of my two Pi Zeros up,

00:34:05   and gentlemen, if you will look at the link

00:34:07   in the chat/in the show notes,

00:34:09   you can see all the different connectors on the Pi Zero W.

00:34:13   And the connectors are mini HDMI and USB on the go ports,

00:34:18   and then micro USB for power.

00:34:21   So USB on the go is apparently also micro USB,

00:34:25   but all I have keyboard-wise is an Apple,

00:34:30   like not wireless, an Apple wired extended keyboard,

00:34:35   one of the ones that has a USB port,

00:34:36   which works great on the Raspberry Pi 4

00:34:38   that has a full-size USB port, but on this,

00:34:41   oh, I can't connect a keyboard.

00:34:44   Well, that's a problem.

00:34:46   And then I went digging through my drawers full of adapters,

00:34:50   and finally I got a series of adapters

00:34:52   that would let me plug in a keyboard

00:34:53   so I can actually do something with this computer.

00:34:56   - You actually have, 'cause like,

00:34:57   so what USB on the go is basically is a micro USB port

00:35:02   that's acting as a USB host port

00:35:05   instead of USB device side port.

00:35:07   So it's like a micro USB port on a device,

00:35:10   but on the computer side instead.

00:35:12   Normally the cables are not made to do that.

00:35:15   - Right, so I was able to get a series of cables connected

00:35:18   to plug a full-size USB keyboard into this thing,

00:35:23   and then I went to connect my display.

00:35:25   Now I don't know how close you were paying attention earlier,

00:35:27   but I said that the Raspberry Pi Zero W,

00:35:29   and let me just make sure I get this right,

00:35:31   it has a mini HDMI port on it.

00:35:33   However, my Raspberry Pi 4 has a micro,

00:35:37   well, two micro HDMI ports.

00:35:39   So I have micro HDMI cables.

00:35:42   I do not have mini HDMI cables.

00:35:45   And what really chaps my hind quarters is

00:35:47   I went through all of my cables like six months ago,

00:35:50   and I remember seeing one of these cables and thinking,

00:35:53   "Oh, that's for a camcorder that we had 10 years ago.

00:35:56   "I will never need this cable again, off it goes."

00:35:58   - Let this be a lesson to you kids,

00:36:00   never throw out anything.

00:36:01   - Never throw out anything.

00:36:04   - I might need that cable someday.

00:36:06   - That's totally the wrong lesson.

00:36:08   No, let this be a lesson to you kids.

00:36:09   When you buy your first Raspberry Pi of a certain size,

00:36:12   get the adapter kit with it

00:36:13   that everyone sells for like an extra 15 bucks.

00:36:15   - That's another lesson you could take from this.

00:36:18   Or you could just hoard all your cables forever.

00:36:20   Like I know you're gonna pay more for the cables and adapters

00:36:22   than you did for the Pi Zero W, which is $10,

00:36:24   but still, there's a reason why those kits exist,

00:36:27   because yeah, the first one of these you buy,

00:36:30   you're not gonna have all the weird,

00:36:31   crazy little tiny cables it needs.

00:36:32   So just get the kit the first time.

00:36:34   It's like $25, and then you can go from there.

00:36:37   - Exactly.

00:36:38   Now, I assumed, unfortunately,

00:36:41   that they were the same connector.

00:36:43   Why wouldn't they be?

00:36:44   But they are not.

00:36:45   And so now I have a very unique scenario

00:36:48   where I do have a keyboard connected, hypothetically,

00:36:50   as it turns out, I never tested it.

00:36:52   I do have a keyboard connected, but I can't see anything.

00:36:55   And that's going to make things challenging.

00:36:57   So what does one do?

00:37:00   Now, Marco, you might know the answer to this,

00:37:02   but I'm curious, John, and this is an unfair question.

00:37:04   I'll be the first to tell you it's an unfair question,

00:37:05   but what would you try, John, in order to fix this problem?

00:37:09   - Could you SSH into it and use a big, expensive,

00:37:11   thousand-dollar computer as a dumb terminal?

00:37:13   - Certainly, except that there is no OS on it as yet.

00:37:16   Remember that, noobs, the first thing you do

00:37:18   is you choose what OS to put on it

00:37:21   using a keyboard and a display,

00:37:22   and then at that point, you could probably SSH into it.

00:37:25   But what do you do?

00:37:28   - I don't know, can you just do it by feel?

00:37:30   (John laughs)

00:37:31   - Maybe, maybe.

00:37:32   - You could've used the Force.

00:37:34   (John laughs)

00:37:34   I can tell when you have to hit F2

00:37:36   during the BIOS process to get something done.

00:37:39   - I guess, in theory, I could've booted one of the,

00:37:42   'cause I got two cards, one for each Pi,

00:37:44   I guess I could've put the other card

00:37:46   in the Raspberry Pi 4 and kind of followed along,

00:37:48   you know what I mean, and just guessed.

00:37:50   - Yeah, I just watched a YouTube video.

00:37:51   - Or watched, yeah, that's true, I didn't think about that.

00:37:53   That's actually a pretty good answer.

00:37:54   I'm annoyed, because that's a pretty good answer.

00:37:55   Marco, do you know what I feel like is the correct answer?

00:37:59   How would you have handled this?

00:38:00   'Cause I think you might know.

00:38:02   - I think there's probably some config file you can edit

00:38:06   or some file you create, like if you touch a file

00:38:09   at a certain path on the card,

00:38:10   you can tell it just automatically configure with this

00:38:12   or enable SSH or something like that.

00:38:14   That's the solution I would look for,

00:38:16   is like, is there something I can modify on this SD card

00:38:19   to make it automatically configure enough to the point

00:38:22   where I can get an SSH login?

00:38:24   - I will award you full credit.

00:38:25   Even, you were missing a step,

00:38:27   but I still award you full credit.

00:38:28   - Hold down a key on the keyboard that you just connected?

00:38:30   - No, no, no, no.

00:38:32   So what I ended up doing was I used an app called Etcher

00:38:36   on my Mac to basically reset and reformat the SD card

00:38:41   to actually have the OS already on it.

00:38:43   So not have noobs on it,

00:38:45   but instead have the full OS installation on it.

00:38:48   At that point, this is where Marco, you're exactly right,

00:38:51   you can put a file or touch a file called SSH

00:38:55   into the root of that file system,

00:38:57   and it will automatically enable SSH when it boots.

00:39:00   However, this thing does not have an ethernet port on it.

00:39:05   How do I connect to my wifi, which is not exactly open?

00:39:08   - Oh yeah.

00:39:10   - You can open it up for two seconds.

00:39:11   No one's gonna hack you.

00:39:12   - I could.

00:39:13   - Is there some, again, config files,

00:39:15   is there some config file you can put on there

00:39:17   that says connect to this SSID with this password?

00:39:20   - As it turns out, wpa_supplicant.config,

00:39:24   you set your country, you set a couple other parameters,

00:39:27   and then you set a network, and you say

00:39:30   it's such and such SSID with such and such pre-shared key,

00:39:33   and sure enough, when I plugged this thing in,

00:39:35   suddenly my Eero app said hi, there's a new Raspberry Pi

00:39:38   connected to your network.

00:39:39   And so I was able to at that point SSH,

00:39:41   or if I really wanted to, I guess I could have VNCed

00:39:43   if I'd started X Windows, but I was able to SSH in

00:39:46   and do everything I needed to do.

00:39:47   But imagine my utter misery when I've finally gotten

00:39:52   my treats that I've been waiting, I don't know,

00:39:53   less than a week ultimately, but it felt like forever for.

00:39:56   I finally got all the stuff I need,

00:39:57   and there was an Amazon order and a pyshop.us order,

00:40:02   so two different orders that happened to come

00:40:04   at the exact same time, and I'm all excited with myself.

00:40:07   I'm not gonna have to wait for anything.

00:40:08   Ooh, and I'll be able to talk about it on the show.

00:40:10   This is like a double bonus, and, ah, crap,

00:40:13   I don't have any way to plug it into a monitor.

00:40:16   - No, this is perfect.

00:40:18   The entire reason you got this is because you wanted

00:40:22   an incredibly complicated, convoluted, pain in the ass

00:40:25   solution to a very simple problem.

00:40:27   - It's so true.

00:40:28   - You're getting your money's worth.

00:40:29   - Yeah. - I'm getting my money's worth.

00:40:30   - What you got was that problem being even more

00:40:33   convoluted and pain in the ass than you thought it would be.

00:40:35   - Never has $10 bought so much hardware

00:40:38   and software headaches.

00:40:39   (laughing)

00:40:41   That's how to really stretch your dollar.

00:40:43   - Yeah, right?

00:40:43   - Oh, God, it's so true.

00:40:44   - You are keeping busy, I tell you what,

00:40:46   you are finding ways to keep yourself busy

00:40:48   during this difficult time.

00:40:50   Give yourself credit.

00:40:51   - That's the way it is when it starts trying to line up

00:40:52   those sensors on the garage door.

00:40:54   Open, close, open, close.

00:40:57   Let me just bend it a little bit more, open, close.

00:40:59   (laughing)

00:41:00   - That's gonna be a three weekend ever,

00:41:01   I'm telling you right now.

00:41:03   But no, it was such a, like again, this is so stupid.

00:41:08   I recognize it's stupid, but in the heat of the moment,

00:41:10   it was such like a rollercoaster, 'cause I've got my treats.

00:41:12   I go and open it up, I go to set it all up,

00:41:14   and oh wait, I can't connect my keyboard.

00:41:17   Oh, oh, oh, I finally put together all the adapters

00:41:19   necessary for the keyboard.

00:41:21   Oh, I can't get on the wifi.

00:41:23   Oh wait, oh no, you know what I can do?

00:41:25   I can use the same connectors,

00:41:26   I actually have USB to ethernet.

00:41:28   I can put it on ethernet just long enough to set up wifi.

00:41:32   Oh crap, I can't connect to display.

00:41:33   So it was like issue after issue.

00:41:37   I am definitely getting my $10 worth

00:41:39   out of computer headaches, as you said.

00:41:40   But even though this is so frustrating and silly,

00:41:45   I think because it's silly, I enjoy it so much,

00:41:49   because it's so, like the stakes are so low.

00:41:51   Like what's the worst that happened?

00:41:53   I think all in on this garage project,

00:41:55   I'm at like 100 bucks, which is not a little amount of money.

00:41:57   Like that's money, but in the grand scheme of things,

00:42:00   it's not insurmountable money.

00:42:02   And I have gotten, even though it has been stressful,

00:42:06   I have gotten incredible amounts of joy

00:42:09   from being able to do all this and tinker.

00:42:11   And now I briefly FaceTimed with my dad

00:42:14   to show him my achievement tonight.

00:42:16   And something that occurred to me

00:42:17   as I was talking with him was,

00:42:19   even though I've been writing software for,

00:42:21   like professionally for almost 20 years,

00:42:24   and in an amateur sense for probably 30 at this point,

00:42:27   I've, only in a couple of occasions

00:42:32   have I really seen my software come to life,

00:42:34   in the sense that it is interfacing with the physical world.

00:42:38   And my first job out of college was actually,

00:42:41   and I've mentioned this several times in the past,

00:42:42   was writing C++ for DOS to power slot machines that,

00:42:47   well, they weren't actually slot machines,

00:42:50   they were bingo machines that looked like slot machines,

00:42:52   because of weird laws.

00:42:54   And so I got to see like the real spin and the display work

00:42:58   when my code worked and so on and so forth.

00:43:00   And so that was really exciting.

00:43:02   And then I vividly remember the first time

00:43:03   I ran fast text on my iPhone

00:43:06   and saw my software like on this device.

00:43:08   And it was just mind blowing.

00:43:10   I don't know Marco,

00:43:11   if you remember the first time you had,

00:43:12   Instapaper on your device,

00:43:13   but for me it was incredible.

00:43:16   And so this now I'm interfacing with like real world things

00:43:20   like sensors and lights and yeah, it's dumb,

00:43:22   but it's so cool.

00:43:24   It's so cool being able to see this

00:43:25   like actually happening in the real world.

00:43:29   And it's so much fun and such a silly waste of time

00:43:33   that I have enjoyed every second of.

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00:45:34   - I don't need to spend money on WWDC.

00:45:41   So I actually have like three or $4,000 to spend, right?

00:45:45   That's how it works.

00:45:46   - So which of the new laptops are you gonna buy

00:45:47   or have you already bought?

00:45:49   - No, I'm not buying anything right now.

00:45:51   Not because I don't want to, but because I shouldn't.

00:45:53   - 'Cause you're not going anywhere?

00:45:55   - Yeah, 'cause I'm not going anywhere.

00:45:56   I actually said to Aaron earlier, today or yesterday,

00:45:59   I said to her, I really want to buy like a 2000

00:46:02   or $3,000 laptop to go to the grocery stores

00:46:05   I'm not going to and do work that I'm not doing there.

00:46:07   - Right.

00:46:09   - But before we talk about that, let's talk about WWDC.

00:46:11   There has been a date announced.

00:46:13   It is selfishly inconvenient because I'm supposed

00:46:15   to hypothetically be on vacation that week.

00:46:17   As it turns out, I'm sure I won't be on vacation that week

00:46:19   because of coronavirus, but nevertheless,

00:46:22   Apple is hosting their Worldwide Developer Conference

00:46:24   beginning June 22nd.

00:46:25   So it stands to reason that on the 22nd

00:46:28   will be the keynote and then the rest of it

00:46:31   will be all virtual, including apparently labs,

00:46:34   which I'm really, really curious how that's gonna work.

00:46:37   But we have a date and it's June 22nd.

00:46:40   - Yeah, most of the information in the announcement

00:46:43   is not especially new, with the exception

00:46:46   of there's a whole bunch of stuff about how the student

00:46:49   things will work, there's a whole bunch of like new

00:46:51   student things they're doing and apparently the only way

00:46:54   you can get a WWDC 2020 jacket is by winning

00:46:58   one of the student things that you can do.

00:47:00   But for non-students, for kind of the rest of us,

00:47:04   the only real news here that we didn't already know

00:47:08   is the dates and they did mention labs existing

00:47:12   and they said that it was free.

00:47:14   We still don't know, I think the big question is like,

00:47:16   how are the labs going to work exactly?

00:47:20   That's a pretty big question, but ultimately, this is good.

00:47:23   I'm glad to see them laying out a little bit more,

00:47:26   trickling out information as they are ready to,

00:47:29   this is good and for now, this is kind of all we need

00:47:31   to know anyway, I mean, no one needs to make travel plans.

00:47:35   All we know now is like, all right, set aside some time

00:47:37   during the week of June 22nd because you're gonna

00:47:39   probably wanna do some of the sessions or however

00:47:43   the labs work, it's probably gonna be time-based,

00:47:45   so somehow get to some of those labs, who knows?

00:47:48   But again, glad to see, we're making progress,

00:47:52   we're getting towards this thing and it seems like

00:47:55   they're heads on right, I think it would have been weird

00:47:57   if they were like, all right, online W2C, $500,

00:48:01   that would have been strange, so the pricing seems right

00:48:04   of being free, the focus on a lot of student stuff

00:48:06   is fairly typical, they seem to be amping it up

00:48:10   a little bit every year and that's very good

00:48:12   and yeah, otherwise, it all looks good.

00:48:14   We'll see how it goes.

00:48:16   - Is it just me or did they not give an end date?

00:48:19   We're all just assuming it's a week as normal,

00:48:21   but they didn't say that anywhere, did they?

00:48:23   - I don't think so and keep in mind, this is so new,

00:48:28   there are so many assumptions that we have

00:48:30   and that they might have based on how it's always been done

00:48:33   that we can break and one of those assumptions,

00:48:36   why does it have to be a week?

00:48:38   It can be three days or it can be all summer, who cares?

00:48:41   It doesn't really need to have a certain ending date,

00:48:44   the only thing that really needs to end is at some point,

00:48:47   the people doing it at Apple have to get back

00:48:49   to the rest of their jobs, but it doesn't mean

00:48:51   it can't be nine days or four days.

00:48:55   It could be anything within a certain reasonable range

00:48:58   and it would be fine and of course,

00:49:01   the sessions air at certain times or are on at certain times

00:49:05   or get released at certain times,

00:49:06   but the sessions are then available forever.

00:49:08   You can go online now and look back up to

00:49:12   probably at least three or four years ago

00:49:13   and they started putting all of them online.

00:49:15   You can go back and get previous year session videos,

00:49:18   you can search the transcripts,

00:49:19   you can look at sample code from previous years,

00:49:20   so these things have long lifetimes.

00:49:23   So the only question is when are these sessions released?

00:49:26   And because they no longer have this travel-oriented

00:49:30   in-person event, if they can't release everything

00:49:34   they want to release in five days, they don't have to.

00:49:37   They can take a little bit longer,

00:49:38   they can release it over a few weeks if they want to.

00:49:40   If some API is not ready yet,

00:49:42   they can wait till it is ready.

00:49:44   - Yeah, they've been doing that lately anyway

00:49:45   where they would make these little mini presentations

00:49:48   when they'd have technology announcements

00:49:49   that were miniature WWDC sessions for the past several years.

00:49:53   I mean, those tend to be shorter,

00:49:55   but still that's a format they seem to like.

00:49:57   The marketing for this one is a bunch of memogees

00:50:01   behind laptops, I guess,

00:50:07   inside of a dark background

00:50:08   with being lit by the screen, I suppose.

00:50:10   And it's interesting because it lets them advertise

00:50:15   their memogee thing, but I feel like

00:50:18   where they have the people peeking out

00:50:19   from behind their screen and you can only see their eyes,

00:50:23   there's something strange about that.

00:50:24   It's like, it's not menacing exactly,

00:50:27   but it's kind of, I mean, maybe it's a coronavirus thing

00:50:29   where you can, you know,

00:50:30   the mask is covering their nose and mouth

00:50:32   and you can just see the eyes peeking out.

00:50:33   I like it much better when you can see their whole face,

00:50:35   like their smiling person or whatever,

00:50:37   the guy with the gap in his tooth,

00:50:39   or the missing tooth or whatever.

00:50:41   That looks fun and happy,

00:50:43   but I'm not quite sure why they're in the dark.

00:50:44   I mean, I guess it's just saying

00:50:45   like developers toil away in the dark.

00:50:47   Do you remember a couple years ago

00:50:49   that Apple had that video that was kind of like

00:50:51   playing all the stereotypes that all developers

00:50:53   are terrible antisocial troglodytes?

00:50:57   That was not a good one.

00:50:58   - That is an unfortunate stereotype to be, you know,

00:51:01   emphasizing even further here.

00:51:03   On the other hand, it is largely true.

00:51:05   - I mean, I don't think they're emphasizing that.

00:51:08   It just reminded me of it,

00:51:09   but I do think that someone made a choice

00:51:11   to not show the whole faces of a bunch of people

00:51:13   and have them peeking out from behind the monitor,

00:51:15   which is kind of cool, but also, I don't know,

00:51:19   a little bit, it seems a little bit strange to me.

00:51:22   I do like the fact that a lot of the media they have

00:51:25   randomizes the emoji you get.

00:51:27   You know, Apple's been a fan of doing that.

00:51:29   It's like three people, and which three people do you get?

00:51:31   Like they have a set of, I don't know, 20 or something,

00:51:33   and they're all different, and they're all really cool.

00:51:35   Like whoever did like the character design on them,

00:51:37   they have variety of hair colors and glasses

00:51:41   and you know, skin colors and hats and hairstyles

00:51:44   and all sorts of cool stuff, so it's fun in that way.

00:51:47   And people have stickers on the back of their laptops,

00:51:49   but then some people don't have stickers

00:51:50   on the back of their laptops.

00:51:52   So you can choose who you would, you know,

00:51:54   what kind of person you'll get along with.

00:51:56   - Should I become a hat person?

00:51:58   You think I could pull that off?

00:51:58   - You were a hat person, and then, you know,

00:52:01   they got ruined for you, and did you get a blue one?

00:52:05   Or something?

00:52:05   - I forget, I think I lost it.

00:52:07   I gotta make a new one for the summer.

00:52:08   - You're a hat person by default

00:52:10   to keep from getting sunburn on your head, right?

00:52:12   - No, but I don't mean like a baseball hat.

00:52:13   I mean like a fashion hat.

00:52:14   Like it seems like one of the options now

00:52:17   for personal fashion is you could just be like a hat person.

00:52:20   You could be like a cool hat person and wear a cool hat.

00:52:22   - A lot of danger in that, 'cause a lot of the hats

00:52:24   have pre, have existing associations.

00:52:27   Like for example, you probably wouldn't wanna get a fedora.

00:52:30   - Well, why not?

00:52:31   - Just trust me.

00:52:33   - See, I don't know anything about hat fashion,

00:52:35   so I don't even know like why is that bad.

00:52:37   I have no clue.

00:52:38   - Yeah, same.

00:52:39   - You could tip your hat and say, "M'lady, just don't."

00:52:41   - I wouldn't do that.

00:52:43   - God, just be glad you don't know.

00:52:45   Trust me when I tell you that certain hats

00:52:47   have pre-existing associations.

00:52:49   - The cowboy hat, can I pull off a cowboy hat?

00:52:51   No.

00:52:52   - You absolutely could pull off a cowboy hat.

00:52:53   - Especially in the suburbs of New York.

00:52:55   That would go over well. - No, you absolutely can.

00:52:58   A cowboy hat would fit you perfectly.

00:53:00   I could totally see that.

00:53:02   - You seem to know a lot about hat fashion.

00:53:03   What kind of hat do you think you could pull off?

00:53:05   - I think I could do like the big straw,

00:53:11   the big droopy straw hat.

00:53:13   I don't know.

00:53:14   - I would like to see that.

00:53:15   - Huckleberry Finn, or like,

00:53:17   I don't know what character I'm thinking of,

00:53:18   but just kind of like a big stalk of wheat

00:53:19   coming out of my mouth, and the big floppy straw hat.

00:53:23   I think I could pull that off.

00:53:24   - And then what would Casey be wearing?

00:53:26   Not what he would choose, what would look good on him?

00:53:28   - I think, I don't know.

00:53:31   I just keep saying Casey and a dorky baseball hat.

00:53:33   I don't know, sorry Casey.

00:53:35   - That actually is like the perfect answer.

00:53:37   - It is, I was saying.

00:53:39   - What's the Kraft macaroni and cheese of hats?

00:53:41   - Oh, come on.

00:53:43   First of all, it's Velveeta, you jerk.

00:53:45   Secondly, you know, I am not kidding.

00:53:48   I long to get to the point that I can pull off a flat cap.

00:53:53   You know what that is?

00:53:54   Where it's like, I think that's what it's called, right?

00:53:55   Like Todd Vaziri can pull this off so well,

00:53:57   and it makes me so angry.

00:53:58   - I'm doing an image search.

00:53:59   Oh, this?

00:54:00   I think you're too tall for these.

00:54:02   - Maybe, I don't know.

00:54:03   But it's like, it comes up just a little bit in the back,

00:54:05   and then kind of like falls down to like,

00:54:07   being like a wedge in the front.

00:54:09   - It's like a MacBook Air shaped hat.

00:54:11   - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:54:12   I want to be able to do this so badly,

00:54:14   and I know I can't right now,

00:54:15   but I'm hopeful when I get old, I'll be able to pull it off.

00:54:18   - No, no.

00:54:20   - Please dad.

00:54:20   - You have to get like a foot shorter

00:54:21   and way fatter to pull this off, Casey.

00:54:23   - Why do you have to be short?

00:54:24   - I'm saying one doesn't have to be short,

00:54:27   but you to pull this hat off

00:54:28   would have to be way shorter and fatter.

00:54:30   (laughing)

00:54:32   - I just want to be able to wear it, come on.

00:54:34   - No, sorry.

00:54:35   I didn't make your head shape.

00:54:37   This is what it is.

00:54:38   - Makes me so sad.

00:54:40   It makes me so sad.

00:54:42   - All right, now if I were to get a fedora,

00:54:43   as Jon suggests.

00:54:44   - No, I did not suggest.

00:54:46   - Oh, I was gonna say,

00:54:47   do I get a red one for the Linux reference?

00:54:49   Or is that too like Michael Jackson?

00:54:50   - No, no.

00:54:51   I was telling you to get a cowboy hat.

00:54:53   - Oh, that's right.

00:54:54   Okay, cowboy hat, all right.

00:54:56   - Can we please discuss why a fedora's bad?

00:54:58   I'm really curious now.

00:54:58   - I'm looking up image churches for all these things.

00:55:00   Now, do I curl up the edges on the cowboy hat

00:55:03   like some people do, or do I leave it flat?

00:55:05   - There's so much variety in cowboy hats.

00:55:07   I don't know all the different variety,

00:55:08   but I do know that some of them have one curl,

00:55:10   some of them have two curls,

00:55:11   some of them have no curls of different degrees,

00:55:12   and I think you would just pick whichever one works for you.

00:55:16   - Yeah, it does seem like the world of cowboy hats

00:55:19   is quite fast.

00:55:20   - I still think when I'm like 60 or 70,

00:55:23   I can do a flat cap.

00:55:24   I'm telling you, I'm holding out hope.

00:55:25   I'm holding out hope.

00:55:27   - Start gaining that weight.

00:55:28   - And shrinking.

00:55:29   - That'll happen naturally though.

00:55:32   - That much though?

00:55:33   - No, osteoporosis.

00:55:35   I believe in him.

00:55:35   - He's pretty tall.

00:55:36   He's got all sorts of genetic ailments though.

00:55:39   - I'm not that, wait, what are my genetic ailments?

00:55:41   - Your eyes, right?

00:55:42   - Oh, well, yeah, okay.

00:55:43   - That doesn't make you shorter.

00:55:45   - Yeah, and it doesn't make me shorter.

00:55:47   - I'm just saying, there could be other ones.

00:55:50   We don't know.

00:55:51   - Let's talk about something happier, except not.

00:55:54   There's a new 13-inch MacBook Pro, which is happy.

00:55:57   - This is amazing.

00:55:58   The butterfly keyboard is dead.

00:56:00   We won.

00:56:01   That's it.

00:56:02   - It's as dead as you want it to be.

00:56:04   - Well, yeah, I mean, obviously there's still

00:56:06   a whole bunch of them still on the channel

00:56:07   and still in people's homes and still owned

00:56:08   by people that'll be in use for years.

00:56:10   - And still on the iPad keyboard you like.

00:56:13   - That's true, yeah, and still on the one keyboard cover

00:56:15   that I like.

00:56:16   - So it's exactly as dead as you wanted it to be.

00:56:18   - Exactly, the butterfly keyboard is gone

00:56:21   from the entire Mac lineup.

00:56:22   I am so, so happy.

00:56:25   Finally, one of our long national nightmares is over.

00:56:28   We will probably never know why it took so long

00:56:35   for them to fix this problem, but it's now fixed

00:56:39   and I could not be happier.

00:56:41   The new keyboards that we have, the magic keyboards

00:56:44   in the laptops, they are totally fine.

00:56:47   They're not amazing, they're just fine

00:56:49   the way laptop keyboards should be.

00:56:51   They are unmemorable, you will start typing on it

00:56:53   and you will forget about your keyboard.

00:56:55   You won't have to think about it.

00:56:56   You won't have to baby it.

00:56:57   You won't have to be afraid of getting a tiny speck

00:56:59   of dust in it once.

00:57:01   Your keys will work reliably all the time

00:57:04   and it's amazing.

00:57:05   It's the way it used to be.

00:57:07   It's like if your house caught fire once a week,

00:57:11   that would become pretty annoying and you would think,

00:57:15   I can't think about anything else

00:57:17   because it keeps catching fire

00:57:18   and I have to deal with that, right?

00:57:20   This is like your house was catching fire once a week

00:57:22   for the last four years if you had an Apple laptop

00:57:24   and now finally you can buy one that doesn't.

00:57:27   It doesn't need to be an amazing house.

00:57:29   When you're used to one that catches on fire once a week,

00:57:31   if you have one that doesn't, that's great.

00:57:34   It's a huge upgrade in quality of life

00:57:36   and that's what these keyboards are.

00:57:38   They're not amazing, ridiculous, awesome keyboards.

00:57:42   They're totally fine keyboards

00:57:43   and we're coming from a place that was so far

00:57:45   from totally fine for so many people

00:57:47   that that's a massive improvement.

00:57:48   So I'm happy that now the laptops are finally

00:57:52   with a couple of minor nitpicks here and there

00:57:55   as I will always have.

00:57:56   For the most part, laptops are in a very good spot

00:57:59   and I would say the entire Mac lineup

00:58:04   for the first time in a long time, possibly 2012,

00:58:09   I'd say the entire Mac lineup

00:58:12   is in a pretty good spot right now.

00:58:14   The best spot it's been in a long time.

00:58:17   - Yeah, that's true, especially since those models

00:58:19   that like never get updates have been updated recently-ish

00:58:23   within the last year or two

00:58:25   and that's pretty much the best you can hope for.

00:58:27   The ones that are frequently updated were just updated

00:58:29   and the ones that haven't been updated in ages

00:58:32   were kind of updated semi-real.

00:58:33   I mean, maybe the iMac Pro is the one spot

00:58:36   that you could quibble about,

00:58:37   but otherwise there are really no more Macs

00:58:40   that if someone wanted to buy them,

00:58:42   you would have to swoop in and explain some sort of caveats

00:58:45   that they may not be aware of.

00:58:46   All of them, it's a balance of price and performance

00:58:49   and it depends on what you want and yada yada,

00:58:51   but they're all basically good computers,

00:58:52   even the really old iMac Pro.

00:58:55   Even the iMac Pro, it's a Xeon.

00:58:57   It's a Xeon workstation lineup product

00:59:00   and those always have 18 to 24 month update cycles.

00:59:05   So we're near the end of that,

00:59:07   but we're not like, it's not egregious.

00:59:09   It's not super outdated to the point where it's embarrassing.

00:59:12   If you had to go out and buy an iMac Pro today, it's fine.

00:59:15   You're not gonna feel like a total idiot doing that

00:59:17   and you're not getting a terrible deal

00:59:19   doing that necessarily.

00:59:20   Even the Mac Mini, the Mac Mini is usually neglected

00:59:23   horribly and has been for much of its life

00:59:27   or its entire life, but even the Mac Mini

00:59:29   is only a couple years old.

00:59:30   I just bought one.

00:59:30   I feel fine with that.

00:59:31   I don't feel like I got ripped off like I needed one.

00:59:33   I bought one.

00:59:34   - I feel like you got ripped off more than usual

00:59:36   with the Mac Mini.

00:59:37   - Right, yes, more, yes.

00:59:38   I don't feel like I got ripped off

00:59:40   because of the product's age.

00:59:41   Obviously, it's always ripped off in other ways,

00:59:43   but even the value argument,

00:59:47   they've had some pretty bad times for value

00:59:51   in the Tim Cook era.

00:59:52   It has seemed like you're just paying more

00:59:54   and getting less in so many ways so much of the time,

00:59:58   but they've made a couple of corrections

01:00:01   in the past year or so.

01:00:02   Even though the high end is still very expensive, John,

01:00:05   there's now significantly improved value

01:00:09   at the low end for most product lines,

01:00:10   and that's true of the Macs too.

01:00:11   The MacBook Air got significantly better value

01:00:14   with its revision.

01:00:15   The Mac Mini, obviously, not incredibly good.

01:00:18   You do get more storage now for your money,

01:00:21   which the storage prices are still nowhere near

01:00:24   like what you can go on Amazon and buy an SSD for,

01:00:26   but it's better than it was.

01:00:29   A lot of the complaints about the new 13-inch update

01:00:34   that came out this week focus on the formerly escape models

01:00:39   of it, which are still around and kind of didn't get updated.

01:00:43   They only got the new keyboard,

01:00:44   and I don't think much else.

01:00:46   They have, it's the two port versions

01:00:48   of the 13-inch MacBook Pro,

01:00:49   and a lot of people are like,

01:00:50   "Well, to get one that's good,

01:00:52   "you have to get this four port expensive one,"

01:00:54   and that's true, that's always been true for the 13-inch.

01:00:58   To get a good 13-inch, you're always paying around $2,000

01:01:02   for a decent 13-inch configuration.

01:01:04   I specced up, I went on earlier to see

01:01:07   how good of a value these things are.

01:01:08   If I was buying a MacBook Air,

01:01:10   I would get the fastest processor,

01:01:12   'cause it's a pretty slow computer,

01:01:13   so I'd get the fastest processor,

01:01:15   16 gigs of RAM, one terabyte storage.

01:01:18   That is 1,850.

01:01:19   The 13-inch MacBook Pro, I5 2.0 CPU,

01:01:23   16 gig, one terabyte, four port model, 2,000 bucks, $150 more,

01:01:28   and it's significantly faster, it has twice the ports,

01:01:32   it has the much brighter Pro screen,

01:01:35   the Air screen is kind of dim.

01:01:36   That's a significantly better computer for 150 bucks

01:01:38   with otherwise pretty comparable specs.

01:01:40   So we're not talking about super cheap computers

01:01:43   in any case, but they haven't been,

01:01:46   that is not new here.

01:01:48   So the value argument,

01:01:50   if you're looking at a 13-inch MacBook Pro,

01:01:51   it's probably not gonna be a good value

01:01:53   no matter what you do.

01:01:54   If you want a good value in the Mac lineup,

01:01:55   it's the Air or the base model 16-inch.

01:01:58   Otherwise, I think they've done a really good job here.

01:02:01   You could argue whether the two-port 13-inch models

01:02:05   should even still exist,

01:02:07   and I think they only pretty much suggest

01:02:09   to hit price points,

01:02:10   otherwise go for the four-port one if you can.

01:02:13   - Yeah, I mean, as you know,

01:02:14   the reason people are complaining about

01:02:15   the lower-end 13-inch,

01:02:17   which, by the way, Jason Snell pointed out in Slack

01:02:19   while we were recording,

01:02:19   he was musing about the continued absurdity

01:02:23   that Apple sells two computers,

01:02:24   both called the 13-inch MacBook Pro,

01:02:27   that aren't really the same computer

01:02:29   other than more or less being in the same case, right?

01:02:32   They've always used different chips

01:02:34   and had different performance trade-offs

01:02:35   and different prices,

01:02:36   and one of them used to not have a touch bar,

01:02:38   and it's always been kind of weird.

01:02:39   And so here we are again in the same spot

01:02:41   where we've got this bifurcation in the 13-inch line

01:02:45   that is definitely not obvious from a consumer perspective

01:02:48   unless you actually look at the specs

01:02:49   and understand more about it.

01:02:51   And in this particular case,

01:02:52   they upgraded the high-end one to be what everybody wanted,

01:02:56   and they upgraded the low-end one,

01:02:57   yes, they fixed the keyboard,

01:02:58   but they didn't really change much else about that.

01:03:01   It's weird that they didn't upgrade the CPU,

01:03:06   the internals, essentially, of the lower-end 13-inch,

01:03:10   and that's making people scratch their head

01:03:13   a little bit about it.

01:03:14   You don't want to feel like you're getting,

01:03:15   Apple always does it with Intel's terminology

01:03:17   of eighth-gen, 10th-gen processor, right?

01:03:19   It's not a 10-animator processor,

01:03:21   but the 10th-gen one is,

01:03:23   and it's the same one that it had before,

01:03:24   and yes, you get double the storage,

01:03:26   and yes, you get the good keyboard,

01:03:27   and so on and so forth,

01:03:28   but it's the one you look at kind of as an ugly duckling,

01:03:31   and arguably, the escape was also

01:03:32   always kind of an ugly duckling

01:03:33   unless you really loved that escape key,

01:03:35   in which case, right?

01:03:37   And so the comparison that I've been thinking about

01:03:40   and a lot of people are thinking about is,

01:03:42   and you just did it yourself, comparing,

01:03:44   all right, so how do I choose between an Air

01:03:48   and the low-end 13,

01:03:49   because they're sort of in each other's space, right?

01:03:51   You know, there's the obvious physical differences.

01:03:54   You can look at them and see

01:03:54   what the physical differences are,

01:03:55   and Rene Ritchie and his new YouTube channel,

01:03:59   which you should check out, enumerated,

01:04:01   I think, basically, all the changes,

01:04:03   the significant differences between the MacBook Air

01:04:06   and the low-end 13.

01:04:08   The low-end 13 is 0.3 pounds heavier.

01:04:11   Display is 20% brighter, and it's P3.

01:04:14   It's got a better speaker and microphone setup than the Air.

01:04:18   The MacBook Air has the 10th Gen processor,

01:04:22   but the 13-inch does not.

01:04:23   It has 8th Gen.

01:04:24   The 13-inch has a worse GPU,

01:04:28   and it can't drive the Pro Display XDR,

01:04:31   but the MacBook Air can,

01:04:32   which is, again, something you wouldn't expect.

01:04:34   Like, wait a second, the cheaper non-pro model

01:04:37   can drive the Pro Display XDR,

01:04:39   but the supposed 13-inch MacBook Pro can't.

01:04:42   It's because it's the older GPU

01:04:43   and older chipset and everything.

01:04:45   - Wait, is anybody driving a Pro Display XDR

01:04:47   with a MacBook Air?

01:04:49   - I don't know.

01:04:50   I'm just saying, like, this is a spec difference.

01:04:51   If it's a spec difference,

01:04:52   the worse GPU people do care about,

01:04:54   'cause it's not, like, worse by a little bit.

01:04:55   Like, if you do anything involving the GPU,

01:04:57   which maybe you do, you're doing, you know,

01:04:59   but then the XDR is just a side effect

01:05:01   of having an older GPU

01:05:02   that doesn't have display-stream compression.

01:05:04   One hour less battery life on the 13-inch,

01:05:07   and of course, 13-inch has a touch bar,

01:05:08   which again, like, the escape key is like,

01:05:10   well, is that a plus or a minus, right?

01:05:11   So there are differences, but the differences, like,

01:05:15   aside from the display stuff and the speaker and mic,

01:05:18   everything really is in favor of the Air,

01:05:21   because the Air's newer.

01:05:22   Like, the Air's got the new stuff.

01:05:23   The Air's got the new GPU and CPU.

01:05:24   The Air, you know, uses less power, presumably,

01:05:27   with the new GPU and CPU.

01:05:29   The Air has display-stream compression, right?

01:05:31   All those things makes that low-end 13-inch

01:05:34   look like kind of ugly talking.

01:05:35   But that said, you know,

01:05:38   you can look at these differences

01:05:39   and make the decision that you want about it.

01:05:40   The point is, if you look at these trade-offs and say,

01:05:44   actually, I do want the Pro,

01:05:45   because it has these advantages, you know,

01:05:47   it has better cooling,

01:05:48   or the 8th Gen processor runs the app that I want

01:05:51   better than the 10th Gen one because of thermal throttling,

01:05:54   whatever, you decide you want it.

01:05:56   It's a perfectly good computer,

01:05:58   because now the keyboard is fine again, right?

01:06:00   And it's just, you can actually pick products

01:06:01   based on the specs

01:06:03   and not have to have any of these weird conversations about,

01:06:05   with the exception of maybe having a conversation

01:06:07   about the touch bar,

01:06:08   there's no more sort of like caveats

01:06:11   that you're just desperate for everybody to know.

01:06:13   But I think the fact that this one hasn't been updated

01:06:16   still makes that 13-inch product

01:06:19   the sort of most treacherous for the casual consumer,

01:06:22   because there are differences, legitimate differences,

01:06:25   like, you know, sensible differences,

01:06:27   but that are not obvious by looking at them in the store,

01:06:29   'cause they all just look the same, right?

01:06:31   So hopefully this weird low-end 13-inch

01:06:36   either goes away entirely, which I would love,

01:06:38   'cause I don't want there to be a two-port computer

01:06:40   called Pro, but that's just me,

01:06:42   or eventually gets the internals updated

01:06:44   when new chips are available

01:06:46   that are not the exact same chips

01:06:48   that are in the high-end one.

01:06:49   - So if I were to buy something tomorrow, which I'm not,

01:06:52   what would I buy?

01:06:53   - You'd get the high-end one with all the goodies,

01:06:55   and you'd be happy, right?

01:06:57   'Cause that's what you always wanted.

01:06:58   You wanted a 13-inch size computer that has all the things

01:07:00   and has all the ports and is fast and has a good keyboard,

01:07:02   and this is it.

01:07:03   A nanometer Intel processor, like, good GPU,

01:07:07   double the storage.

01:07:08   That's another thing that I did across this whole line

01:07:10   is the whole you get twice the storage for the same price,

01:07:12   which, again, their storage prices are so stupid,

01:07:14   but hey, it's good, right?

01:07:15   It improves the value.

01:07:17   It's everything you said you wanted for the past many years

01:07:21   when you were, you know, waffling over what to buy.

01:07:24   - Me, waffling?

01:07:25   No, surely not.

01:07:27   Yeah, I mean, I really want one really badly.

01:07:31   I don't wanna spend the money on one

01:07:32   at this particular moment, but I want one.

01:07:35   My adorable is just, it's old.

01:07:38   I love it, I still love it, but it's old, and it's slow,

01:07:41   and I want something faster and newer.

01:07:43   - I still love it, except that I've hated it

01:07:44   every moment of using it, but I love it.

01:07:45   - Yeah, well.

01:07:47   - I love it, it has all these problems, it's slow,

01:07:49   the keyboard breaks all the time, it's horrible,

01:07:51   and the one port is a huge pain in the butt,

01:07:52   but I love it, absolutely.

01:07:53   Have I told you how much I love it?

01:07:54   - When he's sitting on the couch reading Slack with it,

01:07:56   I'm sure it's great, it's an element.

01:07:58   - Reading, not writing.

01:08:00   - Yeah, I could type on it.

01:08:01   - Typing, I'm sure works fine, too.

01:08:02   Maybe he's not so much so great for Xcode.

01:08:05   - Well, typing is also difficult,

01:08:06   'cause I'm getting double, I feel like I'm getting

01:08:08   double vowels all over the place.

01:08:10   - You know, I was thinking, when Marco was celebrating

01:08:13   the banishment of the butterfly keyboard

01:08:15   from Apple's laptop line, I was looking at my laptop

01:08:18   off to the side, and I was thinking, you know what?

01:08:20   I think I'm in the butterfly second honeymoon period,

01:08:24   or the second wind of the butterfly,

01:08:26   because remember, this is my work laptop,

01:08:27   and it was 2017, and I had the butterfly keyboard,

01:08:29   and eventually my space bar stopped working right,

01:08:33   and then I got it replaced on the repair extension program.

01:08:35   - It's only a small percentage of people, though.

01:08:37   - Yeah, exactly, I'm one of the small percentage,

01:08:41   and when they replaced it, of course,

01:08:44   because this laptop is designed in a dumb way,

01:08:46   they also gave me a brand new battery,

01:08:48   and so after using this laptop for two years at work,

01:08:51   and really hurting the battery doing Webex meetings

01:08:54   with video, and having the fans spin up,

01:08:56   and just like, I got a brand new battery

01:08:58   two years into the life of this laptop for free,

01:09:01   and I only had to be without it for like a week,

01:09:04   and my keyboard works again, so I have a working keyboard,

01:09:07   and the battery, it's like new, 'cause it is new,

01:09:08   it had like three cycles on it when I got it,

01:09:10   so I'm actually, not that I'm glad

01:09:13   that I have a butterfly keyboard,

01:09:14   but if the butterfly keyboard didn't break,

01:09:16   my battery would be terrible by now.

01:09:18   - So if I were to buy one, which one would I get?

01:09:20   I would think either the two gigahertz,

01:09:24   the two gigahertz 512 or the two gigahertz terabyte,

01:09:26   'cause I have 512 in my doorbell,

01:09:28   and I don't need it, but I don't wanna be in a position

01:09:32   where I'm like, uh-oh.

01:09:33   - I made the decision a couple years back

01:09:36   to just get one terabyte for my laptops,

01:09:38   'cause I have a similar situation as you,

01:09:39   it's not my primary computer,

01:09:41   so I don't need like the biggest storage in the world,

01:09:44   'cause I'm not keeping everything on it,

01:09:45   but it is nice to have a bunch of storage

01:09:48   for not only development stuff,

01:09:50   'cause Xcode stuff is massive,

01:09:51   you always need tons of space for like the Xcode itself,

01:09:54   and the betas, and the SDKs, and everything else,

01:09:56   and then also, when you're going on a trip or something,

01:09:59   when we can eventually do that, do that again.

01:10:02   I know I like to bring a lot of downloaded video files.

01:10:05   Casey, I can only imagine what you bring with you.

01:10:08   (laughing)

01:10:09   I like having a terabyte, and most times,

01:10:12   I have approximately 300 gigs free, so like less than 500,

01:10:17   so I know that was generally the right move

01:10:19   to go to the terabyte.

01:10:21   - Yeah, and I think 32 gigs RAM, so that's 400 bucks.

01:10:24   Is it worth the $200 for the 300 megahertz

01:10:28   and the additional turbo boost?

01:10:30   - No, but I always pay it.

01:10:32   It's really not, most of the time,

01:10:35   but because when the increment is that small,

01:10:38   even though I know it will probably hurt my battery life,

01:10:40   I just pay it, 'cause I've been always looking for laptops

01:10:43   that's got a little bit more longevity,

01:10:44   'cause they're the kind of computer

01:10:45   that feels slow before everybody else,

01:10:46   so I would do it.

01:10:48   There's not probably a good reason,

01:10:49   you probably shouldn't, but that's just me.

01:10:51   - I usually don't get the high RAM option on laptops,

01:10:54   like 16 is my RAM number for laptops,

01:10:57   even though I get high RAM on desktops,

01:10:59   because on the desktop, I leave this thing,

01:11:02   the uptime is very, very long,

01:11:04   and I'm leaving all sorts of huge things open all the time.

01:11:06   Like right now, I have numbers pages,

01:11:11   in addition to, I have Slack, Dash,

01:11:14   the documentation viewer, I sometimes podcast

01:11:17   with Xcode and a simulator running in open,

01:11:19   which I probably shouldn't, but that happens sometimes.

01:11:22   Forecast, iTunes, I have so many things open right now,

01:11:25   because it's my desktop and I do everything here.

01:11:27   On a laptop that I'm using as a secondary/travel workstation

01:11:31   I'm usually more focused on what I'm doing.

01:11:33   I'm not usually running everything all at once,

01:11:36   instead I'm just running Xcode and Mail and Safari

01:11:40   or whatever, as opposed to all sorts of different,

01:11:44   Logic and Photoshop all being open at the same time,

01:11:46   like I often do here.

01:11:47   So on laptops, I've been going 16 gig for years,

01:11:51   and it's been totally fine.

01:11:53   So $400 for 32 gigs to me is not worth it at all.

01:11:57   Now, for those of you out there who are getting this

01:11:59   as your primary computer, and you're like,

01:12:01   oh, I gotta run VMs or whatever,

01:12:02   okay, that's a different story.

01:12:03   But as a secondary/travel computer,

01:12:06   32 gigs might not be necessary for most people.

01:12:09   - Yeah, I think there's like two modes

01:12:11   that you can use this computer in.

01:12:13   Like if one mode is going for maximum battery life,

01:12:17   which I suppose would be the travel case,

01:12:19   I would get the slower processor and 16 gigs,

01:12:20   but for all other cases, I would get the faster N32.

01:12:23   - And for the processor, there's also the,

01:12:26   I know this is super nerdy,

01:12:27   but my whole turbo boost religion,

01:12:29   for me, because I usually run my laptop

01:12:33   with turbo boost disabled, that changes the calculus

01:12:37   of like, well, do you want a high base clock?

01:12:41   Do you want high turbo boost?

01:12:42   It kinda changes that.

01:12:43   So usually I go for actually a lower base clock

01:12:47   because then I save even more battery power

01:12:50   when I'm not on turbo.

01:12:52   But that of course comes with a significant

01:12:53   performance hit as well.

01:12:55   So like on this, between the 2.0 and 2.3 high end CPUs,

01:13:00   I'd probably go 2.0, just because it would run very cool,

01:13:05   I'd maximize battery life, and if I really needed

01:13:07   to step it up for performance,

01:13:08   I would just turn turbo boost on,

01:13:10   and the difference between 3.8 and 4.1 is not very big.

01:13:14   - We gotta get you a hardware turbo button.

01:13:15   Maybe in case you can make-- - I'm just thinking

01:13:16   the same thing.

01:13:17   - You can make something with a Raspberry Pi

01:13:19   that you can tape to the back of your computer.

01:13:21   - I would love that.

01:13:22   - Use an authentic turbo button from PCA-T.

01:13:24   - Talk about, like, you know, the touch bar

01:13:26   is so frickin' useless.

01:13:27   That should be on the touch bar.

01:13:29   Or replace the touch bar with keys that make sense

01:13:32   for volume and brightness, and then a turbo button.

01:13:34   (laughing)

01:13:35   That would be amazing.

01:13:36   - Why don't you just get the model that has

01:13:38   four high speed cores and eight power efficient cores.

01:13:41   - Oh, man, see, this is why when we go ARM,

01:13:44   there's gonna be a lot of problems

01:13:45   that I think will just kind of disappear.

01:13:47   Speaking of turbos and other,

01:13:49   maybe this should have been in Fallout,

01:13:50   but I got some more suggestions for fan control apps,

01:13:53   and I got one of them that lets you manually

01:13:55   control the fan speed, even on my Mac Pro.

01:13:59   And I'm not sure if this is a limitation of the software,

01:14:03   or if it's a limitation of the computer,

01:14:04   but the reason I was all excited

01:14:06   to get the manual control on it is 'cause I was like,

01:14:08   now I can just, I can manually turn the fans

01:14:11   way, way, way down and just, like, look at the temperatures

01:14:13   and see if I'm about to fry my computer or whatever, right?

01:14:16   But this software did not let me turn any of the big three

01:14:19   fans below 500 RPM.

01:14:21   I'm like, but that's what they run at all the time.

01:14:22   And it's like, yeah, they're running at the slowest speed.

01:14:26   Someone from Apple should tell me,

01:14:27   can these fans spin at anything less than 500?

01:14:30   It seems like they can't.

01:14:32   So, which is kind of disappointing,

01:14:34   'cause I was hoping they could spin at like 100 RPM

01:14:36   and it would be like almost silent.

01:14:38   But anyway, this software couldn't,

01:14:39   I forgot the name of it, it's, yeah.

01:14:43   - There's like SMC fan control and stuff like that.

01:14:45   TG Pro.

01:14:47   - I don't know the physics of it,

01:14:48   but like, you know, motors have a certain minimum speed

01:14:50   they can spin at.

01:14:51   I've never seen computer fans that,

01:14:55   like from Apple at least,

01:14:56   that idled below about 900 RPM.

01:15:00   So the fact that yours idle already at 500,

01:15:02   I don't think you're getting a lot better than that.

01:15:04   - Yeah, they're huge fans.

01:15:05   Like they're, you know, the size of a cantaloupe.

01:15:07   Like, it was understandable that they would be going slow.

01:15:09   I just, you know, I couldn't make them go any slower.

01:15:11   Anyway, I did pin them all to the slowest speed

01:15:14   and just watch my temperatures.

01:15:15   They don't really go up.

01:15:16   Maybe that'll change in the summer

01:15:18   with my lack of air conditioning in my house.

01:15:20   But anyway, that was a fun experiment

01:15:22   to play with that manual fan control.

01:15:24   I don't recommend it.

01:15:25   This software lets you like put in your own fan curves

01:15:27   essentially and say, when it's this temperature,

01:15:29   go to this RPM and I'm not gonna play that game.

01:15:30   I'm just, you know, I'll let the system handle it.

01:15:32   But it was worth it just to be able to play around with it.

01:15:35   - Are you actually setting,

01:15:37   like are you forcing it to stay too slow?

01:15:39   'Cause usually those programs are used

01:15:41   to force the fans to spin faster

01:15:43   than they otherwise would have

01:15:44   to keep the laptop running cooler.

01:15:46   - You can do that too.

01:15:47   It has sliders.

01:15:48   You just slide them and you can listen to the fans.

01:15:49   You can just slide, you turn on manual control

01:15:51   and you basically have a slider

01:15:52   that lets you individually control the fans

01:15:54   with one slider for each fan.

01:15:56   - Yeah, but will it actually, like I bet,

01:15:59   like it probably wouldn't let the CPU get above

01:16:01   about like 90 Celsius, I bet.

01:16:03   - I was never close to that.

01:16:04   Like, I'm not doing anything on my computer.

01:16:06   It's like it hovers.

01:16:07   And I changed everything to Fahrenheit

01:16:09   'cause I can't handle doing, even for CPU stuff.

01:16:11   I know people get used to it for CPUs,

01:16:12   but anyway, yeah, I didn't try to stress it.

01:16:16   Like I'm sure if I played a game or something,

01:16:17   it would get hot and maybe something would happen.

01:16:20   I mean, eventually like the thing

01:16:22   will just turn itself off for safety.

01:16:24   But since they, like I was saying,

01:16:27   since the slowest you can make them go

01:16:28   with the software is 500,

01:16:30   they don't really go much above that in normal use anyway.

01:16:33   The only time I hear the fans

01:16:34   is when I'm playing Destiny and Windows, right?

01:16:36   And then it's only like,

01:16:38   there's this thing about games that I wish,

01:16:40   I've heard people refer to many times,

01:16:42   but I've never heard someone explain it to me.

01:16:44   I'm sure we've all experienced it in games

01:16:45   that the fans spin up the loudest

01:16:47   when there's stuff on screen

01:16:49   that looks the least impressive, basically.

01:16:51   Like you're in a menu or like you're at a vendor,

01:16:55   which is like basically a static screen

01:16:56   with just a bunch of choices.

01:16:57   And you're like, and all of a sudden,

01:16:58   all your fans crank up and you're like,

01:17:00   why the fans spinning up?

01:17:01   And I heard game developers say off-handedly

01:17:05   that this is the case that like,

01:17:06   you know, drawing things that are not impressive

01:17:10   on the screen for some reason make the fans spin up.

01:17:11   Maybe it's because you can get amazing frame rates

01:17:13   and things, I don't know the explanation,

01:17:15   but practically speaking, it's what happens.

01:17:17   Like, so in Destiny, I'm playing and everything's fine.

01:17:19   And then I go to some screen that is totally not impressive,

01:17:21   like a menu screen or something and the fans go crazy.

01:17:24   Occasionally I can see it where it makes sense

01:17:25   where there's lots of lighting effects

01:17:26   where, you know, big explosions are going off

01:17:28   and I hear the fans spin up, but yeah.

01:17:31   You can definitely hear them when you're playing Destiny

01:17:33   at 4K and HDR.

01:17:35   The struggle is real.

01:17:37   And as for the theory that the frame rate goes wild,

01:17:39   I have in software in Destiny,

01:17:42   I have the frame rate capped at 60

01:17:43   'cause I have a 60 hertz monitor.

01:17:44   So there's no point in frame rate being much above that.

01:17:47   So I don't know, it's confusing.

01:17:49   But yeah, when these fans get going,

01:17:51   you can definitely hear them.

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01:20:02   (upbeat music)

01:20:05   - Ask ATP?

01:20:06   - Let's do it.

01:20:07   - So let's start tonight with a question from Tom Anthony.

01:20:11   Tom writes, "I'm a full-time video producer/editor

01:20:14   for three years, starting to develop some signs of RSI.

01:20:16   I've adjusted my desk so that the keyboard/mouse/monitor

01:20:19   are all at the recommended height and angle.

01:20:20   I take breaks, but it's still getting worse.

01:20:22   Are there any suggestions for the next thing to try?

01:20:24   I'm considering switching to a track pad or a different mouse

01:20:26   but I have no idea where to start.

01:20:28   I've been using a magic mouse forever.

01:20:30   I don't seem to have problems with my iPad

01:20:31   but I can't edit video on that."

01:20:34   - Yeah, so I think the,

01:20:36   reading this message and other things like this,

01:20:40   I was just thinking,

01:20:41   this is probably not medically accurate analogy,

01:20:43   but you think about like,

01:20:44   if you have like a metal wire

01:20:47   and you bend it back and forth,

01:20:49   you ever like bend a metal wire back and forth

01:20:51   until it gets like hot and breaks, right?

01:20:53   As a way to break a metal thing, right?

01:20:56   And this thing is kind of like,

01:20:59   I've been bending the metal wire back and forth

01:21:01   and it feels like it's getting weaker

01:21:03   and I've been bending it less

01:21:04   and taking breaks between bending,

01:21:06   but I'm afraid it's gonna break.

01:21:09   What can I do?

01:21:10   And it's like, stop bending the metal

01:21:14   back and forth in that spot.

01:21:16   Like that's, it's basically what it comes like.

01:21:18   There's no magic bullet.

01:21:19   Like, you know, your insides aren't made of metal,

01:21:22   but if you're doing the same thing

01:21:26   with some mechanical part of your body,

01:21:28   a joint or whatever,

01:21:29   and you're just repeatedly doing this,

01:21:31   that's why it's called repetitive strain injury.

01:21:33   You're repeatedly straining something.

01:21:35   Yes, taking breaks is good,

01:21:36   having good ergonomics is good, all those things,

01:21:38   but what it all boils down to

01:21:40   is not bending that thing back and forth.

01:21:42   So for example, to use the wire analogy,

01:21:44   you could bend a different spot.

01:21:46   Like, oh, it looks like it was almost gonna break

01:21:48   at this spot.

01:21:49   Let me go to another spot on the wire

01:21:50   and bend it back and forth.

01:21:51   And it gives that other spot a break, right?

01:21:52   And if it's a very long wire,

01:21:54   you can bend it all to sorts of different spots

01:21:55   and spread it around.

01:21:57   That's why lots of people, you know,

01:21:58   like say, which should I use?

01:21:59   What's the good pointing device?

01:22:00   Should I use an ergonomic mouse?

01:22:01   Should I use a trackpad?

01:22:02   Should I use a trackball?

01:22:03   What's the good one for ergonomics?

01:22:04   There is no good one.

01:22:06   There are ones that are worse than others,

01:22:07   depending on how your positioning is and whatever,

01:22:09   but it depends on how and where are you injured.

01:22:13   If you've always been using a mouse in the same way,

01:22:16   using literally anything else

01:22:18   will probably help alleviate some of the things

01:22:20   that are bothering you about the mouse.

01:22:22   It doesn't mean that other one is better.

01:22:23   It just means you're bending a different part of the wire

01:22:25   back and forth, right?

01:22:27   Who would be know, like Mike Hurley is on a,

01:22:30   and CGP Grey does this too,

01:22:32   on an input device rotation regime to enforce this.

01:22:35   Like an actual, like, I do this with this device,

01:22:37   I use the pen with this, I use the trackball with this,

01:22:39   I use the mouse with this, just like,

01:22:41   not just like on a month by month basis,

01:22:43   but like on a task by task basis, right?

01:22:45   You're spreading the strain around.

01:22:48   Now, it really depends on how injured you are,

01:22:50   and you know, you have to take breaks

01:22:52   and do a lot of stuff,

01:22:53   and some people could get to the point

01:22:54   where they're so injured that any activity exacerbates it,

01:22:57   and if you have any kind of nerve injury

01:22:58   that doesn't heal as well or at all,

01:23:02   they're all, you know, anyway,

01:23:03   see a doctor, deal with all that,

01:23:04   it's such a pain, I know you can't really see a doctor now,

01:23:06   it's such a pain in the butt,

01:23:07   but violin is, there's no way to avoid the wire breaking

01:23:11   if you keep bending it in the same spot,

01:23:13   no matter how many breaks you take, right?

01:23:14   It's just, you really have to stop hurting yourself, right?

01:23:19   Hurt yourself differently in different places,

01:23:21   spread it around and make yourself stronger

01:23:23   and read books about it,

01:23:24   and like, there's no easy answer.

01:23:27   So, I guess, in my depressing non-answer to this,

01:23:31   things I take away are,

01:23:33   there's like, the idea that a trackpad

01:23:38   is better or worse than a mouse,

01:23:39   or better or worse than a vertical mouse,

01:23:42   or better or worse than a pen,

01:23:43   or better or worse than a split keyboard,

01:23:45   or better or worse than a regular keyboard,

01:23:47   stopping doing what you're doing that's hurting you

01:23:51   is what you're looking for,

01:23:52   and if what's hurting you is using

01:23:54   a super-duper ergonomic keyboard,

01:23:56   and you switch to a different kind of keyboard,

01:24:00   it might make you feel better.

01:24:01   It doesn't mean that different kind of keyboard

01:24:03   is better than your neuro-ergonomic ones,

01:24:04   it just means you're injuring a different part of your body.

01:24:06   So, don't look for the magic bullet.

01:24:09   Get in touch with your body,

01:24:11   read some good books on this,

01:24:12   and hope that someday you can see a doctor again,

01:24:13   and that doctor will have any kind of clue

01:24:15   about how they can help you.

01:24:17   - And I'm gonna say the exact same thing I said

01:24:19   last time we had an RSI question,

01:24:21   which is, first of all, I have found this is not an area

01:24:26   where doctors are typically extremely helpful.

01:24:29   For the most part, while there are exceptions,

01:24:31   there are some doctors who are very good

01:24:32   and are empowered to do good work

01:24:35   and recommend good things,

01:24:36   and with patients who are willing to take

01:24:37   the right advice and everything,

01:24:38   but largely, most modern doctors,

01:24:41   and most American systems at least,

01:24:43   and similar systems, are largely medication vendors,

01:24:49   and people who will refer you to more specialized doctors

01:24:52   who will generally recommend surgery.

01:24:54   The way that doctors usually will address this kind of stuff

01:24:57   is like, well, you can put on these wrist braces

01:24:59   from the drugstore for a while, which don't do anything.

01:25:03   You should take this ibuprofen or something,

01:25:05   which also, I mean, it helps a little bit,

01:25:07   but it's not really a great solution,

01:25:10   and neither a complete nor a totally safe solution.

01:25:13   At the most extreme case,

01:25:14   they'll tend to refer you to surgery,

01:25:16   and surgery of, any kind of surgery that involves RSI causes

01:25:21   or see also back pain, which has a lot of the same issues,

01:25:27   efficacy rates of such surgery are shockingly poor.

01:25:31   While some people have good results,

01:25:32   it's far from a guarantee that it actually will help you.

01:25:35   So the solutions provided by the doctor industrial complex

01:25:40   for things like RSI or back pain,

01:25:44   not great for most people.

01:25:46   Your outcomes are not incredibly promising,

01:25:48   that they'll actually be able to locate and fix

01:25:50   the actual root problem for you.

01:25:52   So what John said is largely true.

01:25:56   The thing that is hurting you,

01:25:58   you need to be doing less of it.

01:26:00   Now, things are better and worse.

01:26:02   I have a little bit more faith in input devices

01:26:05   than John does as a potential for making things better,

01:26:09   or at least varying things, as you said.

01:26:11   I'm a huge fan of split keyboards.

01:26:13   For me, the natural ergonomic split keyboard type

01:26:18   has done wonders for me in this area.

01:26:21   I always find that when I go long periods

01:26:24   using non-split keyboards, like on laptops frequently,

01:26:29   I get a little bit more sore,

01:26:30   and I start having potential issues.

01:26:33   But it's been, ultimately, it's been years

01:26:36   since I've had anything besides mild soreness,

01:26:40   because I've spent those years really regularly exercising,

01:26:45   like doing core strength exercises,

01:26:48   lots, just kind of whole body exercises

01:26:50   with a trainer and everything, it's been wonderful.

01:26:52   I'm not like a body builder or anything,

01:26:54   and you don't need to be.

01:26:55   And if you get your body in better shape,

01:26:57   especially in the core and lower arm areas for this,

01:27:02   you will generally have a better time

01:27:06   around stuff like this.

01:27:08   I know this is not a very useful answer,

01:27:10   when you want something like,

01:27:11   I want to buy a new mouse to fix this problem,

01:27:14   or I need this problem to be fixed yesterday.

01:27:16   This is not a great solution for that.

01:27:18   But it is one that works, and it works really well,

01:27:22   and not much else does.

01:27:24   So definitely consider a significant change

01:27:27   to your fitness regime that can strengthen core

01:27:30   and whole body stuff,

01:27:32   and you will probably see good results from that as well.

01:27:35   But certainly on the computer side,

01:27:37   I strongly suggest a natural split ergonomic keyboard.

01:27:41   I have found, and I think many other people have found,

01:27:44   that changing the keyboard to the split type

01:27:47   can have a surprisingly large impact.

01:27:49   Certainly on the pointy device side,

01:27:51   I like having a trackpad on the left

01:27:53   and a mouse on the right.

01:27:54   It seems weird for about a day,

01:27:57   and then your left hand gets used to it,

01:27:58   and over time you will develop precision pointing

01:28:00   and pointing device abilities with your left hand,

01:28:04   as well as your right.

01:28:05   So now I can do precise movement with either one.

01:28:09   So you can kind of share the load between your hands,

01:28:11   you can kind of alternate.

01:28:12   So if you're having like worse problems

01:28:14   in your right hand than your left,

01:28:15   chances are that it's mouse related.

01:28:18   And while you can switch up the kind of device

01:28:21   your right hand is using,

01:28:22   you can also share the load with your left hand,

01:28:24   and that will also help.

01:28:26   Again, none of these things are silver bullets,

01:28:27   but it will help.

01:28:29   And if you can get enough solutions that kind of help

01:28:32   and pile them all together,

01:28:33   you have a pretty big overall improvement.

01:28:36   - I'm just gonna defend medical science for a moment here

01:28:39   and say that although it is totally true

01:28:41   that in the US especially,

01:28:43   doctors have no idea what to do with RSI

01:28:45   and it's very difficult to find a doctor that does,

01:28:47   it's still important to see one

01:28:48   because they can suggest whatever they want,

01:28:50   but ultimately you decide what treatment you want to pursue

01:28:52   as long as you understand that yes,

01:28:54   they're probably going to suggest dumb things

01:28:55   like take ibuprofen or put on a brace

01:28:57   or see a hand surgeon or whatever.

01:29:00   Doesn't mean you have to do them,

01:29:02   but they do have ways to test for things

01:29:04   that you would like to rule out.

01:29:06   They can do nerve conduction studies, for example,

01:29:08   which are not fun,

01:29:09   but nerve damage is one you really want to know about

01:29:12   because it's the kind of thing you can't

01:29:14   get yourself back to health with exercise.

01:29:17   If you damage your nerves,

01:29:19   it's very difficult to come back from that

01:29:21   and it's a serious issue.

01:29:22   And they can test,

01:29:23   are you in the process of damaging your nerves?

01:29:25   Have you lost nerve conductivity?

01:29:27   We can test for that.

01:29:28   Do you have one of the incredibly rare things

01:29:31   that everyone knows the name of

01:29:32   that everyone thinks they have,

01:29:33   like carpal tunnel, which everyone thinks they have

01:29:35   that almost nobody who has RSI does have,

01:29:37   that carpal tunnel is a real good PR agency, I guess.

01:29:41   They can test to see if you have that one specific ailment

01:29:44   and they can rule it out if you don't.

01:29:45   They can tell you what part of yourself

01:29:48   are you injuring and how.

01:29:49   Now, when it comes to them trying to suggest ways

01:29:51   for you to not do that, they'll just say,

01:29:53   oh, just stop typing and that'll solve it.

01:29:54   And they're right, but that's not great advice.

01:29:56   And then you get into the whole

01:29:58   who can actually help me with this?

01:29:59   And I think we talked about this in the past,

01:30:00   which shows occupational therapy

01:30:01   and trying to find a good doctor and so on and so forth.

01:30:03   But science does have ways to test for things

01:30:06   and it is good to know.

01:30:08   And for things like the split keyboard or whatever,

01:30:12   if the thing you are injuring is alleviated

01:30:16   by using a split keyboard, you will see relief from it.

01:30:19   If instead the thing you were injuring

01:30:21   is somewhere else in your body,

01:30:23   like in your lower back or your shoulders or your neck,

01:30:26   it's possible that a split keyboard

01:30:29   won't provide any help beyond just a slight change of pace

01:30:32   and then you'll be back in the same position

01:30:33   as you continue to tense up in your neck muscles

01:30:35   or whatever the hell you're doing to yourself.

01:30:37   And that could be core strengthening

01:30:39   or something else you need to do.

01:30:40   It's good to actually know to the best of your ability,

01:30:43   where are the actual problems and what are they?

01:30:46   And also to get them classified as like,

01:30:49   is this the type of problem that I can solve with exercise?

01:30:52   Or is it a, how am I injuring myself?

01:30:57   And even on the rotating thing,

01:30:58   like the do different things, rotate, so on and so forth,

01:31:01   you're all here to start, some people have a bad knee,

01:31:04   and then they get a brace in that knee

01:31:06   or they start favoring their other leg

01:31:08   and then they get a second bad knee

01:31:09   because now you're putting all your weight

01:31:10   on your supposedly good knee

01:31:11   and now you've injured that one.

01:31:13   You can chase these things around all you want,

01:31:15   but in the end, there's only a certain amount of bends

01:31:18   that wire can take and you really just have to learn

01:31:20   to manage that.

01:31:21   And we're not all given the same wire.

01:31:22   This wire analogy, I'm really just riding this thing

01:31:24   all the way home.

01:31:25   (laughing)

01:31:26   We're not all given the same gauge of wire

01:31:28   and the same length and the same strength.

01:31:30   One person can bend that wire back and forth 24 hours a day,

01:31:34   seven days a week for their whole life and be fine.

01:31:36   You might not be able to do that.

01:31:38   It's a genetic lottery and who knows,

01:31:41   like you can't, one size does not fit all.

01:31:43   So like so many things having to do with health,

01:31:46   especially sort of like minor non-fatal chronic conditions,

01:31:51   it's very difficult to find a way to deal with that

01:31:56   without essentially taking on a lot of the burden yourself

01:31:59   to like read books, do research, audition lots of other,

01:32:04   lots of professionals in the field.

01:32:05   Don't accept the advice of the first person you talk to.

01:32:08   Be cautious of medical advice that you know

01:32:10   is sort of interventionary of like,

01:32:12   well surgeons want to do surgery

01:32:14   and doctors want to prescribe drugs

01:32:15   and people don't understand RSI.

01:32:17   Like all that is the case,

01:32:18   but God, I hate talking about this topic

01:32:20   'cause you really just want to tell people

01:32:22   how to deal with it and the answer is it's hard.

01:32:26   Good luck.

01:32:27   - Yep, all right, Jack Johnson writes,

01:32:32   what are the tips for improving audio quality

01:32:33   on video conferencing for people working from home?

01:32:35   Is there an external mic you recommend for this purpose

01:32:37   that would be better than say AirPods?

01:32:40   Is there a way to separate audio input and output on iOS?

01:32:43   Gosh, I don't know what to do about iOS

01:32:46   unless you want to do one of those

01:32:47   completely convoluted setups that like Federico would do.

01:32:51   For the Mac, I mean, you could get a decent mic

01:32:55   or just talk really close to the one that you have.

01:32:58   Marco, this is probably best asked to you.

01:33:00   What's the right answer here?

01:33:02   - So I'll start with the tricky stuff.

01:33:03   iOS, basically iOS does not expose to the user

01:33:08   a concept of like choose your input and output device.

01:33:12   Apps can do it.

01:33:13   Apps have access, like audio apps in the APIs,

01:33:17   you can enumerate and list the devices available

01:33:20   and give people a choice of where the audio is sent.

01:33:22   Most apps don't do that though.

01:33:24   By default, the audio APIs basically just go to

01:33:27   whatever the most recently plugged in,

01:33:30   or there's a certain priority order of like

01:33:33   what device should take control basically

01:33:36   based on what's available.

01:33:37   But most iOS audio devices, or audio apps rather,

01:33:41   will just use whatever the system default currently is

01:33:45   for input and output, so they don't usually offer

01:33:47   that kind of control.

01:33:48   So that being said, generally when it comes to improving

01:33:53   audio quality, intelligibility of how you sound,

01:33:58   people being able to understand what you're saying,

01:34:01   how professional, how clean your audio is as you're talking,

01:34:04   most of us don't have a ton of control

01:34:08   over the room we are in,

01:34:10   and most of us are not in a recording studio.

01:34:14   I'm not even in a recording studio right now,

01:34:15   and I try to make it sound like I'm kind of close to one,

01:34:19   but I'm not, I'm in an office that's a shared use room

01:34:22   that's full of all sorts of other stuff

01:34:24   that has some sound treatment on the wall,

01:34:26   but more than most people would have,

01:34:27   but not nearly as much as a studio.

01:34:30   There's a whole bunch of other crap in the room,

01:34:31   it's way too big to be a studio.

01:34:34   So even I'm now in a room that's not ideal for it.

01:34:37   So what we need to do is figure out

01:34:39   what are ways that you can make decent sounding audio,

01:34:42   or make noticeable improvements,

01:34:44   when you can't control the factors,

01:34:46   and usually you can't control the room.

01:34:49   And the critical thing that Casey, you were right

01:34:51   about what you said a minute ago,

01:34:53   what most people don't realize is that

01:34:55   you can buy the best microphone in the world,

01:34:58   but if it's like three feet away from you

01:35:01   in an echoey room, it's gonna sound like crap,

01:35:05   no matter what mic it is.

01:35:06   It can be a shotgun mic, it can be a hyper cardioid mic,

01:35:08   whatever it is, it's gonna sound like crap

01:35:11   if you're in an untreated room

01:35:12   and you're too far away from it.

01:35:14   And so the best thing you can do generally,

01:35:17   obviously there's exceptions, but generally speaking,

01:35:19   what you want to do is have a microphone

01:35:21   that is as close to your mouth as possible

01:35:24   given the conditions.

01:35:25   And you also ideally want to be able to send the audio

01:35:30   that you are listening to,

01:35:32   like the other people talking back to you,

01:35:34   ideally send that to headphones, not out to speakers.

01:35:38   And the reason why is that you have Zoom and Skype

01:35:42   and all these different things, FaceTime,

01:35:43   they are smart enough that they will try to not record

01:35:48   what they're outputting, so you don't get echo back into,

01:35:52   like the other person talking

01:35:54   that's coming out of your computer,

01:35:55   which will be picked up by your mic,

01:35:57   the software tries to correct for that

01:35:59   and cancel it back out again

01:36:00   so that it doesn't get into an echo loop.

01:36:02   By doing that though, the software has to do more work

01:36:06   to filter your incoming audio, it introduces artifacts

01:36:09   if you happen to talk over each other,

01:36:11   which happens all the time when video calls

01:36:12   'cause of latency, and it just generally can sound worse.

01:36:16   So ideally, you want to give the software

01:36:17   the best fighting chance at sounding decent.

01:36:19   So number one, if you can, send the audio

01:36:22   to your headphones that you're hearing,

01:36:24   so that way the software doesn't have to work as hard

01:36:26   to cancel it out.

01:36:27   You will still get some headphone bleed,

01:36:29   but that's another story.

01:36:30   Anyway, in the context of video calls,

01:36:33   it deals with that, okay.

01:36:35   So if you wanna be wearing headphones,

01:36:38   and the best thing for a microphone

01:36:40   is to get it close to your mouth,

01:36:42   then ideally, use a headset.

01:36:47   And all of us have headsets, generally speaking,

01:36:51   because AirPods and Earbuds, the Apple cells

01:36:55   that have microphone blobs in the cords,

01:36:57   those are headsets.

01:36:59   They aren't necessarily the best headsets for this purpose,

01:37:02   but you probably already have one.

01:37:04   So already, you can generally get a significant improvement

01:37:08   by just using Earbuds or AirPods.

01:37:12   Now, if you wanna go beyond that,

01:37:14   again, look at anything that can get the sound

01:37:17   to go into your headphones,

01:37:19   and the microphone to be close to your mouth.

01:37:21   So that could be like a gaming headset,

01:37:23   there's like USB headsets for gamers

01:37:25   that integrate the microphone.

01:37:27   There's also analog ones that have the two plugs

01:37:29   on the outside, like the one headphone and one mic,

01:37:31   and there are ways to adapt that to a phone

01:37:34   with the three conductor phone cables

01:37:37   that have the microphone built in.

01:37:38   So there are various ways to do that.

01:37:40   I haven't looked into the cabled ones in a long time,

01:37:43   so I can't tell you what's available.

01:37:43   There are probably many that just go directly

01:37:45   without any adapters into a headphone jack.

01:37:48   But there's probably also Bluetooth ones,

01:37:50   there's some latency issues there,

01:37:51   but for video conferencing, it would be fine.

01:37:54   So generally speaking,

01:37:57   get the microphone close to your mouth.

01:37:59   Now, what you do after that, that's up to you,

01:38:02   whether you wanna get super fancy

01:38:03   and get like a podcast microphone,

01:38:05   but in the context of video chats,

01:38:07   it's not really that important because, first of all,

01:38:12   if you get a microphone close to your mouth,

01:38:14   no matter what it is, you're gonna be the best-sounding

01:38:16   person on the entire call every single time, I guarantee it.

01:38:18   It doesn't have to be a great microphone

01:38:20   to beat everyone else. (laughs)

01:38:22   It can be, and it can be as simple as like,

01:38:24   there's this wonderful Audio-Technica mic series,

01:38:27   the ATR2100 series.

01:38:30   There's most recently the ATR2100X.

01:38:32   I added it to my giant microphone mega review on my site,

01:38:35   which I guess we can link to,

01:38:36   so you can kinda see how it sounds

01:38:37   compared to everything else.

01:38:39   And if you talk close to it, it sounds pretty good,

01:38:41   and I think it's like 100 bucks,

01:38:43   and it's a USB-C XLR or USB-C mic,

01:38:47   so you can add it later to a bigger setup

01:38:49   if you really wanted to, or you can just use it over USB,

01:38:52   stuff like that, but ultimately,

01:38:54   all that stuff is kind of overkill.

01:38:57   What you really just need is a decent headset.

01:39:00   - You know, I had actually forgotten

01:39:03   and would like to reiterate what you were just saying

01:39:07   about using headphones at all.

01:39:09   When I was still working at a traditional jobby job,

01:39:13   we did a lot of Google Hangouts,

01:39:15   or whatever it was called for that minute,

01:39:17   and one of the things that annoyed me the most,

01:39:20   'cause the mobile team tended to kind of

01:39:22   go in and out of the office.

01:39:24   You know, sometimes, some of us were always working

01:39:26   from home, even though we were, strictly speaking,

01:39:28   all based in Richmond.

01:39:31   So anyway, I noticed that anytime we did like a standup

01:39:33   or any sort of meeting, anyone who didn't use headphones,

01:39:38   it was very difficult to hear,

01:39:39   because there was so much feedback and trying,

01:39:42   and cancellation of the feedback and so on and so forth,

01:39:44   just like you were describing, Marco,

01:39:46   that it infuriated me that these people

01:39:48   wouldn't just put headphones on.

01:39:49   Even if you're alone, just put headphones on.

01:39:51   It makes a world of difference.

01:39:53   So I think that's probably step number one,

01:39:55   is to put headphones on, and politely and gingerly

01:39:58   and gently encourage those who you're meeting with

01:40:01   to also put headphones on if possible, 'cause--

01:40:04   - No, there's no chance of that.

01:40:05   - Any one of you, oh, I know, I know,

01:40:06   but if any one of you is doing this open air,

01:40:08   it's probably gonna ruin it for everyone.

01:40:10   - I mean, look, I have, there's a lot of upsides

01:40:13   to everybody working at home these days,

01:40:16   being forced to, there are a lot of upsides to it.

01:40:18   However, one of the major downsides is video conferences

01:40:23   are just fancy conference calls, and conference calls

01:40:26   are one of the worst forms of communication

01:40:29   that humans have ever devised,

01:40:31   because it's just, there's so much latency

01:40:36   and delay and crosstalk and confusion and false starts,

01:40:40   and it's just a miserable experience for everyone involved,

01:40:44   even if everyone's really good at it.

01:40:46   It tries to mimic, and with video, it comes even closer,

01:40:49   it tries to mimic being in person and hanging out,

01:40:52   but in practice, it's nothing like that at all.

01:40:56   And people, the closer people try to make it act like that,

01:41:00   the more it falls down, that oh, no, wait,

01:41:02   you go ahead, no, you go ahead, oh, wait,

01:41:04   I was gonna say, oh, no, wait, who's breathing?

01:41:06   It's, ah, just, it's a bad scene.

01:41:10   So make the most of it, get a headset.

01:41:12   You know what, the way to beat this, get a headset

01:41:15   to improve your quality and your listening

01:41:17   and everything else, and then get a beer.

01:41:19   And your hands are now free, 'cause you have a headset,

01:41:22   so you can use your newly freed hands to have a beer.

01:41:25   That makes it a little bit more bearable.

01:41:27   - Jon, any other thoughts?

01:41:28   - Can't believe you, at least Marco's so worked up

01:41:30   about conference calling, considering he,

01:41:32   I can't even remember the last time he would've had

01:41:35   to do one for quote unquote work.

01:41:36   I have multiple ones per day,

01:41:38   so I'm in the thick of it right now.

01:41:40   - No, what it is is that now, the only way I can hang out

01:41:44   with my friends is via conference calls.

01:41:46   So I went from not having to ever do them

01:41:48   to the only way I can socialize, and that sucks.

01:41:52   It's way worse than in-person socialization.

01:41:54   - You can just tell your friends

01:41:55   to put on headphones, though.

01:41:57   It's harder to tell your coworkers that.

01:41:58   Anyway, my advice would be much more pragmatic

01:42:02   and lower level.

01:42:03   I know the question was how do I improve the audio quality,

01:42:05   but practically speaking, in all of my various

01:42:08   video conferences every single day of the week,

01:42:11   I'm just begging for people to not be in the middle

01:42:15   of a tunnel filled with diesel trucks when they're,

01:42:18   like, mute yourself when you're not talking.

01:42:21   Everybody knows that, but apparently not everybody knows that

01:42:24   and I don't care about the audio quality.

01:42:27   I don't care how far away you sound.

01:42:28   I just want to understand your words,

01:42:30   and sometimes there's just so much noise,

01:42:32   like a constant static, like there's a giant, like,

01:42:35   fan blowing on the microphone.

01:42:37   I'm like, what is that?

01:42:38   Where are you?

01:42:39   What is that noise?

01:42:41   Like, it doesn't make any sense.

01:42:42   And it's not like it annoys you

01:42:44   'cause you're bothered by noise.

01:42:45   It annoys you because they speak

01:42:46   and you can't understand their words

01:42:48   'cause there's too much noise.

01:42:50   I just wanna be able to understand you.

01:42:52   I don't care how good you sound.

01:42:53   I don't care how distant you sound.

01:42:54   I don't care if you sound like you're in the far corner

01:42:56   of a giant public restroom.

01:42:58   I just need to understand your words,

01:43:00   which means everyone else mute

01:43:02   and you somehow have enough signal-to-noise ratio

01:43:04   for me to hear the words coming out of your mouth.

01:43:07   That's all I want.

01:43:08   - Yeah, 'cause like, keep in mind,

01:43:09   like there's gonna be, I kind of alluded to this earlier,

01:43:12   there's gonna be so much processing done by the software

01:43:16   to your voice that the differences between higher-end mics

01:43:19   are mostly gonna be crushed.

01:43:20   Most people are not gonna really be able to hear those

01:43:22   through the terrible protocol that the programs are using.

01:43:25   So as long as signal-to-noise ratio

01:43:27   is what's important here,

01:43:28   as long as people can understand you

01:43:30   and you're speaking clearly

01:43:31   and it's not too echoey in the room--

01:43:32   - And you're not riding a motorcycle at the time

01:43:34   you're on the conference call, stuff like that.

01:43:36   - You also want to avoid the problem of like,

01:43:39   I get this because whenever I do a video chat,

01:43:42   which again, is not frequent normally,

01:43:44   but it has occasionally happened for various,

01:43:46   you know, somebody wants to talk

01:43:47   and let's talk about podcast standards or whatever happens.

01:43:49   Whenever I do a call,

01:43:51   I always just use my podcasting microphone

01:43:52   'cause it's configured as like the input to my computer.

01:43:54   It's right here, why wouldn't I use it?

01:43:56   I have headphones, it's always ready to go.

01:43:58   So I swing it over, it's on this big boom arm.

01:44:00   I put on my big headphones.

01:44:01   It has a little pop filter in front of the microphone.

01:44:03   And every single time, everyone's like,

01:44:05   "Whoa, look at you, all fancy."

01:44:07   And it becomes like a thing.

01:44:09   Like it's like a thing that everyone has to mention.

01:44:11   Like the other night, I did a hangout with my friends

01:44:13   and same thing, it's like, "Oh, whoa, look at that.

01:44:16   "And the use I'm better than all of us."

01:44:17   And it's like, that's a kind of attention

01:44:20   that you might not want

01:44:22   or it might not be appropriate in certain contexts

01:44:25   for you to be like the fancy person

01:44:26   with the big fancy head up.

01:44:28   - Maybe you don't want the cowboy hat.

01:44:29   (laughing)

01:44:30   - So like, that's another reason why I suggest

01:44:34   a headset is a really good balance

01:44:35   'cause a headset gives you,

01:44:38   in the purposes of a video chat program,

01:44:40   90% of the quality or more

01:44:43   as the best podcast setup you could possibly have

01:44:45   but with a smaller, low profile thing

01:44:48   that no one's gonna notice and call out

01:44:50   and draw attention to yourself with.

01:44:52   So stick with the headset range of things

01:44:54   if you don't want people to be commenting on it constantly.

01:44:56   And then finally, I will also say that this is,

01:44:59   typically these days, we're not just doing audio calls,

01:45:01   we're doing video calls

01:45:03   and the best thing you can possibly do for video calls

01:45:07   is get some light on your face.

01:45:09   For the love of God, get some light on your face.

01:45:12   Most people doing video calls do it

01:45:16   in an unmodified office, unmodified room

01:45:20   that usually has a big light above and/or behind them.

01:45:24   They get back lit and you can see their face

01:45:27   very darkly shadowed and this bright light

01:45:31   shining behind them.

01:45:32   That's never good.

01:45:34   Do whatever you can to get light hitting your face.

01:45:38   So get light behind your computer, above your computer,

01:45:42   whatever it is, get light on your face.

01:45:44   It doesn't have to be fancy.

01:45:45   You know, right now, if you go out right now

01:45:46   and try to buy studio lights,

01:45:48   they're all sold out everywhere of course

01:45:50   'cause everyone's doing this,

01:45:51   you don't need that.

01:45:53   It can just be a lamp.

01:45:54   Just move it to, next to or behind your computer.

01:45:58   Somehow get more light on your face

01:46:01   and get more light in front of your face

01:46:03   than there is behind your face.

01:46:05   So whether that's turning on a light behind the computer

01:46:08   and then turning off the light behind you,

01:46:10   whatever you can do, do that because that will also,

01:46:14   in addition to sounding reasonable on these video calls,

01:46:17   you will look better than everyone else in the video.

01:46:19   You will be clearer to see and clearer to understand.

01:46:22   You will look more professional if you have just

01:46:25   some kind of light on your face during these video calls.

01:46:28   All right, thanks to our sponsors this week,

01:46:30   Squarespace and Linode, and we will talk to you next week.

01:46:34   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

01:46:39   ♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

01:46:42   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:46:43   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:46:44   ♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪

01:46:46   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:46:47   ♪ John didn't do any research ♪

01:46:49   ♪ Margo and Casey wouldn't let him ♪

01:46:52   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:46:54   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:46:55   ♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪

01:46:56   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:46:58   ♪ And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM ♪

01:47:03   ♪ And if you're into Twitter ♪

01:47:06   ♪ You can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S ♪

01:47:12   ♪ So that's Casey List M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M ♪

01:47:16   ♪ Auntie Marco Arment S-I-R-A-C ♪

01:47:21   ♪ U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A ♪

01:47:24   ♪ It's accidental ♪

01:47:25   ♪ It's accidental ♪

01:47:27   ♪ They didn't mean to accidental ♪

01:47:30   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:47:32   ♪ Tech podcast ♪

01:47:34   ♪ So long ♪

01:47:36   - Did you see Porsche has come out,

01:47:41   Porsche, excuse me, has come up with

01:47:43   new radios for old Porsches.

01:47:47   So the idea here is let's say you have,

01:47:50   and I don't know squat about Porsches, so forgive me,

01:47:53   but if you have like a '60s era Porsche,

01:47:56   I keep trying to say Porsche 'cause I'm American,

01:47:58   if you have a '60s era P car,

01:48:00   you might wanna have a modern stereo,

01:48:03   maybe, I don't know, with CarPlay.

01:48:05   You know, Marco, the thing that your Tesla can't do,

01:48:08   that thing? - Mm-hmm.

01:48:09   - Anyway, you might wanna have CarPlay

01:48:12   in your 1960s era Porsche,

01:48:14   and they have created head units

01:48:17   that are specifically designed for that purpose.

01:48:20   So they're single and doubled in,

01:48:21   and they're styled in such a way

01:48:23   that they would sort of fit in

01:48:25   in these like old, old, old Porsches.

01:48:27   And I think this is the coolest,

01:48:30   most amazing idea in the world.

01:48:31   - I'm sure they're very affordable too, right?

01:48:33   - I'm sure they are.

01:48:34   - Well, like everything else about having a Porsche, right?

01:48:37   - Yeah, that's also true.

01:48:39   - This is the world's most expensive

01:48:41   like '60s size head unit for your car.

01:48:44   Like it's this tiny thing with this tiny screen.

01:48:47   Does it have the pricing anywhere?

01:48:48   I just, I really wanna know how much this is.

01:48:50   - I thought it was like 1,000 bucks,

01:48:51   but I may have made that up.

01:48:53   - Yeah, I'm sure like owning and maintaining

01:48:56   an antique Porsche has gotta be a really,

01:48:58   you know, value conscious hobby.

01:49:00   - Yeah. (laughs)

01:49:01   - It's probably less expensive

01:49:02   than owning and maintaining a modern one,

01:49:03   just 'cause the old ones were just so much simpler.

01:49:05   - Maybe. (laughs)

01:49:06   - And they were air cooled, for goodness sakes.

01:49:07   Anyway, I just wanted to call out how cool I think this is,

01:49:11   because if I were to, I mean,

01:49:14   I'm not looking to replace my car,

01:49:15   but let's suppose I wanted to replace my car.

01:49:18   - Casey, you're always looking to replace your car.

01:49:20   - Not right now, I'm really not.

01:49:22   And that's not even a financial thing.

01:49:25   I just really am not.

01:49:26   Plus I haven't driven it in like two weeks, but anyway.

01:49:30   Let's suppose I wanted to like go back to my roots

01:49:33   and get like a 300ZX, and we can argue about

01:49:35   how crappy a car that is that's irrelevant.

01:49:37   But if I wanted to get a 300ZX,

01:49:39   I would have to give up a lot of modern affordances.

01:49:42   And if I could do something like this in the 300ZX,

01:49:46   you know, have like this Bluetooth CarPlay-equipped head unit,

01:49:48   really the only modern affordance that I can think of

01:49:51   that I would really, really miss in this hypothetical 300ZX

01:49:54   with this CarPlay head unit is a keyless entry,

01:49:57   and you know, a keyless ignition.

01:49:59   But other than that, like I would have Bluetooth,

01:50:02   I would have CarPlay.

01:50:04   And yeah, I know there are other like third-party head units

01:50:07   that you can do this with, but they wouldn't fit in.

01:50:10   And like everyone I've seen always looked gross.

01:50:13   I don't know, Marco, you had or have one,

01:50:15   and it always struck me.

01:50:15   - I'm looking at one right now.

01:50:16   It's right, it's an extra way from my hand.

01:50:18   - There you go.

01:50:19   And it's just, I just think this is the coolest,

01:50:22   most awesome idea for keeping older cars relevant

01:50:26   in a small way.

01:50:27   And I just really commend Porsche for doing this.

01:50:30   And it really makes, honestly,

01:50:33   I would never in a million years buy a Porsche

01:50:35   'cause I'm too cheap, but it makes the idea

01:50:37   of owning a Porsche, particularly a used one,

01:50:39   'cause that's all I could afford, so much more appealing.

01:50:42   Because for somewhere between one and $35,000

01:50:46   or whatever it costs for these head units,

01:50:47   you could retrofit them,

01:50:49   and you would have all these modern conveniences

01:50:51   in a Porsche from long ago.

01:50:53   - See, if I ran a luxury car brand,

01:50:55   I would be doing stuff like this all the time.

01:50:57   Because the whole point of a luxury car brand

01:50:59   is your margins are bigger than everybody else.

01:51:01   Your cars, they're super expensive.

01:51:04   And the people who buy them, you wanna cultivate fans.

01:51:09   And so doing stuff like this,

01:51:11   it doesn't really make any financial sense,

01:51:12   and it's not gonna really make you a lot of money,

01:51:14   and you may actually end up losing money on.

01:51:16   You just have to look at it in the grand scheme of things

01:51:17   that the goodwill this generates.

01:51:19   It makes people proud to own your kind of car.

01:51:21   It makes people happy with the car they have.

01:51:23   And if someone owns and maintains a Porsche from the '60s,

01:51:26   chances are good that they are a potential future customer.

01:51:30   'Cause maybe if that's your only car,

01:51:32   it's the only thing you could afford.

01:51:33   But if you have a '60s or a '70s Porsche,

01:51:36   you're probably the kind of person

01:51:37   who might buy future Porsches.

01:51:39   Because people don't have old cars like that

01:51:41   for the hell of it, 'cause they are weird and finicky

01:51:43   and expensive to deal with.

01:51:45   So that probably means they have a lot of money,

01:51:47   and it seems like they like Porsches.

01:51:49   So this is exactly, and it's why I always encourage Apple

01:51:52   to do frivolous things with its mountain of cash,

01:51:55   to cultivate a happy and loyal customer base.

01:51:59   That's what you're going for, right?

01:52:00   You're not, you know, so, even though this particular project

01:52:03   doesn't excite me that much, and I would much prefer

01:52:06   the authentic experience of having

01:52:07   the crappy push button radio, 'cause it's the whole deal

01:52:10   if you're gonna be in this noisy death trap

01:52:11   of a car from the '60s.

01:52:13   Why don't you get some leaded gasoline while you're at it?

01:52:16   - No. - Yeah.

01:52:18   - I'm glad they're doing it,

01:52:19   and I'm sure they're charging ridiculous prices.

01:52:21   - Yeah, can you put an airbag in it?

01:52:23   - No, no, your life is, you can listen to tunes,

01:52:26   but your life is forfeit.

01:52:27   (laughing)

01:52:28   - They're not gonna retrofit it with crumple zones

01:52:31   and roll cages and airbags.

01:52:33   - If only.

01:52:33   It's 1300 euros on this random site I found on the internet,

01:52:37   so that's roughly $1500.

01:52:39   - Do they charge a yearly fee to use CarPlay?

01:52:42   - No, they're not BMW.

01:52:43   - I mean, like, you know, like, a good aftermarket,

01:52:45   like, you know, doubled-in CarPlay unit is $600, $500,

01:52:49   like, it's kind of in that ballpark, so like,

01:52:51   when you add, like, the Porsche multiplier,

01:52:53   like, that's not that bad of a price.

01:52:55   - No, it really isn't.

01:52:56   That's another thing we should bring up

01:52:57   that I forgot to mention.

01:52:58   I've heard news via Twitter today that Marco,

01:53:02   you and I are not going back to buy your next BMW

01:53:05   because European delivery has apparently ceased,

01:53:08   which really, really bums me out.

01:53:10   - Yeah, I thought it was interesting, like, yeah,

01:53:11   so BMW is ending the European delivery program

01:53:13   for North American customers,

01:53:15   and I think it was interesting, like,

01:53:17   basically one of the reasons that the foreign people dug up

01:53:19   was basically that, like, most BMWs sold

01:53:22   to North American customers are SUVs now,

01:53:26   and almost all BMW SUVs are made not in Europe,

01:53:30   like, at least the ones sold to North America

01:53:32   are made in North America.

01:53:33   I think they're made in various factories,

01:53:35   somewhere in the US and Canada, I think,

01:53:37   but so, like, it doesn't really make sense,

01:53:40   like, you know, those were never getting European delivery,

01:53:43   because they couldn't, 'cause they weren't made in Europe,

01:53:45   and so the percentage of sales that BMW has

01:53:48   from North American customers keeps going more and more

01:53:50   towards models that weren't made in Europe anyway,

01:53:52   so they're basically saying, like,

01:53:54   they had very few people still doing European delivery,

01:53:58   and so they're, yeah, they're ending it,

01:53:59   which is unfortunate, kind of the end of an era.

01:54:02   - Although BMW North America has historically

01:54:03   represented an average of 2,000 European deliveries annually,

01:54:07   such deliveries have declined in recent years to under 500.

01:54:10   Based on these trends and long-term evaluation,

01:54:12   BMW Group will end the European delivery program in 2020

01:54:15   and cease accepting reservations as of this week,

01:54:18   or maybe next week, but soon.

01:54:20   - Yeah, it's a shame, like, it's one of those things

01:54:22   that it was so, I'm so glad we did it,

01:54:24   it was so fun, this is, you know, if you wanna hear us,

01:54:27   we, back when we recorded Neutral,

01:54:30   we kind of ended with us having gone to European delivery

01:54:33   for my M5 and us and the List family, it was great,

01:54:38   and it was a fantastic trip, and it was so cool,

01:54:40   the fact that you could, you know,

01:54:42   order a car from BMW in America, and then go to Europe,

01:54:47   they would give you this, like, whole, like,

01:54:50   factory tour, walkthrough thing,

01:54:51   they would give you your car,

01:54:53   you could drive it around Europe for, like, a week,

01:54:55   and then just drop it off at any of these, like,

01:54:58   five or six places in Europe,

01:55:00   and then they would ship it to America,

01:55:02   and, you know, a couple months later,

01:55:03   you could pick it up at your dealer.

01:55:05   That was incredible, and because of some weird, like,

01:55:09   tariff loophole, it was cheaper.

01:55:12   Like, you would save, like, a few thousand dollars

01:55:15   on the cost of the car, so you would kinda pay for the trip,

01:55:18   and so it kinda worked out that, like,

01:55:20   the trip was, like, low to no cost in the grand scheme

01:55:23   of things because you were saving all this money on the car.

01:55:26   It was this kind of amazing thing,

01:55:28   and it always kinda seemed like this shouldn't be possible.

01:55:31   Like, how is this, how is this, like, legal and profitable

01:55:35   for anybody at, like, how do they work out with the tariffs

01:55:38   that you're picking up a new car meant for a different

01:55:40   country in this country that it's not certified to run in,

01:55:44   and you're allowed to drive it around for a little while

01:55:46   and put on a boat somehow?

01:55:47   Like, this should never have worked,

01:55:49   but it did, and it was amazing,

01:55:51   and I'm so glad we got to do it.

01:55:52   It is a shame that it's ending,

01:55:54   but it is kind of amazing that it ever existed.

01:55:56   - Yeah, it was an incredibly, incredibly fun time,

01:55:58   and I'm so glad that Aaron and I were able

01:56:00   to do it with you guys.

01:56:02   It was really preposterous and kinda stupid

01:56:07   in a lot of ways, like, let's fly across the planet

01:56:11   to pick up a car and use it for a week,

01:56:12   and in our particular case, we, like, drove arguably more

01:56:16   than we actually stayed still, but oh my gosh,

01:56:19   it was such a fun trip, and yet,

01:56:21   the next to last episode of "Neutral,"

01:56:23   kinda the end of the regular season of "Neutral,"

01:56:26   if you will, which is episode 12,

01:56:28   we dragged Jon through all of it,

01:56:30   and it was such an incredibly great experience,

01:56:33   and it made me feel like a million bucks

01:56:35   being part of this experience,

01:56:36   and really, I was just a hanger-on.

01:56:39   Like, I had no reason to be there,

01:56:41   but the BMW people were still super nice,

01:56:43   and it was so, so cool and so fun,

01:56:47   and a once-in-a-lifetime experience, for sure,

01:56:49   even before they shut down,

01:56:51   and now with it being shut down, it's even more so,

01:56:54   so I just wanted to call attention to it.

01:56:55   It just kinda bums me out 'cause it was so cool,

01:56:57   but you can still do it with Porsche.

01:56:58   I think you can still do it with Volvo.

01:57:01   Saab, I don't even think exists anymore, so.

01:57:03   - Yeah, everyone loves getting in their fun new Volvo

01:57:06   and driving it around the Nurburgring.

01:57:08   - Well, Volvos are fun.

01:57:10   Well, you don't have to worry, 'cause Tesla

01:57:11   will let you do a California pickup

01:57:13   where you can pick up your Tesla

01:57:14   in the tent where it was painted.

01:57:16   (laughing)

01:57:18   - By the way, before we leave the Porsche carplay topic,

01:57:21   can we just laugh at how amazing this single-din unit looks?

01:57:25   So, like, car stereos have the two different heights

01:57:28   they can be, and the double-din is the regular-looking one

01:57:31   that has a reasonable-sized screen.

01:57:33   Then they also offer a single-din one,

01:57:35   which is like, back when cars were only radios,

01:57:39   or maybe a radio and cassette could fit in that size,

01:57:41   and that's it.

01:57:42   That size, they have a carplay screen,

01:57:45   and it looks like the tiniest, it looks almost like--

01:57:49   - It's smaller than the original iPhone.

01:57:51   - Yeah, it looks like two Apple watches next to each other,

01:57:53   and that's your carplay screen.

01:57:55   - It's three and a half inches, apparently.

01:57:57   - It's like you gotta be squinting

01:57:58   at the navigation screen, can you see anything on it?

01:58:00   It's too small.

01:58:02   - Yeah, 'cause the carplay UI is not particularly scalable,

01:58:05   like it's fairly fixed, so it's not like

01:58:08   they're just rendering one icon on screen.

01:58:10   I think they have to render the same number of icons

01:58:13   just really tiny.

01:58:14   - That's like 600 dpi screen.

01:58:16   - Yeah, it's probably a really nice screen, but it's--

01:58:18   - You need a magnifying glass to read the street names.

01:58:22   - Can we just pause and look at the link

01:58:27   that Nn put in the chat?

01:58:29   - That's a lady's sun hat,

01:58:32   that's not what I was talking about for me.

01:58:33   (laughing)

01:58:34   Marco's cowboy hat is not really a cowboy hat either,

01:58:38   or it's on crooked.

01:58:40   - Oh come on, it's so good, it's so good.

01:58:43   - Casey's the only one who's got the hat he asked for.

01:58:45   (laughing)

01:58:46   And now we can see why he shouldn't wear it.

01:58:47   - Oh come on, I actually was just thinking to myself,

01:58:49   that doesn't look bad.

01:58:51   - No, see this is why you need to be kept away from this hat,

01:58:53   'cause you're not thinking straight on this topic.

01:58:55   - Oh man.