376: Monogamous Gaming Lifestyle


00:00:00   I've had a dumb idea. - Oh, I can't wait.

00:00:04   - I want to know when my garage door has been left open

00:00:08   in the evenings.

00:00:11   Doesn't happen often, but it's something that does happen.

00:00:13   - Isn't the whole purpose of your smart home garage door

00:00:17   opener to alert you to this?

00:00:20   Like when you mentioned that you got one of these smart,

00:00:22   smart garage things probably three years ago, I believe you

00:00:27   specifically said this is what it's for, it's to alert you

00:00:29   if you leave it open unnecessarily.

00:00:32   So is it not doing that in its own app or automatically?

00:00:35   - Well, here's the thing.

00:00:37   As with everything in my life, nothing can ever be simple.

00:00:40   It always has to be difficult.

00:00:42   So I did have the Chamberlain MyQ add-on,

00:00:46   almost daughterboard if you will.

00:00:48   And so what that is, if you're not familiar,

00:00:50   is it's two pieces.

00:00:52   It's a, I can't think of the term, but it's like a thing

00:00:55   you stick to the back of the garage door so it knows

00:00:58   whether it's up or down, right?

00:01:00   It has like, I don't know if it really has an accelerometer,

00:01:02   but it has like mercury switches in it or something like

00:01:04   that, such that--

00:01:05   - Chances are, an accelerometer is probably cheaper

00:01:08   these days than mercury.

00:01:09   - Actually, you're probably right.

00:01:11   I don't even know.

00:01:12   But you get my point, right?

00:01:12   It's something that sticks to the garage door so it knows

00:01:14   if it's down, which is to say vertical, or if it's up,

00:01:17   which is to say horizontal.

00:01:19   And then there's another box that basically proxies

00:01:24   a network request to RF.

00:01:26   So you can come in via the internet and say to this box,

00:01:29   "I would like the door to open, please."

00:01:31   And then it just emits the same radio frequency signal

00:01:35   that a traditional garage door opener that you hold

00:01:37   in your hand would emit, right?

00:01:39   Does that make sense?

00:01:39   - Yeah.

00:01:40   - So you can add it to almost any garage door opener.

00:01:43   And I had that for a while and it was great.

00:01:45   And then when I was at WWDC two years ago,

00:01:49   maybe even three years ago now, our garage door,

00:01:52   which had ever, ever, ever so slightly buckled,

00:01:56   really buckled, and it wouldn't open or close anymore.

00:02:00   And so when I came back from WWDC that year,

00:02:02   and again, this is like two or three years ago now,

00:02:04   I decided that, or we decided to get a new garage door.

00:02:07   And with that became a new garage door opener.

00:02:10   Now, I thought to myself,

00:02:12   "Self, you have this new fancy garage door opener.

00:02:15   You have the opportunity, I should say,

00:02:16   for a new fancy garage door opener.

00:02:17   Why wouldn't you get a new fancy garage door opener

00:02:19   where all of this functionality is built right in?

00:02:21   You don't need the little dingus on the door

00:02:23   because the garage door opener is fully aware

00:02:26   whether the garage door is up or down,

00:02:27   and the garage door opener is internet connected.

00:02:30   Everything will be peachy and great."

00:02:32   As it turns out, the particular vendor that we used

00:02:36   for our garage door sold us the most awful,

00:02:41   smart garage door opener in the world.

00:02:43   So it does have an app.

00:02:44   And it is possible I might be able to configure that app

00:02:47   to alert me whether or not the garage doors open

00:02:51   when I go to bed.

00:02:52   But the app is so bad that I don't trust it to do so.

00:02:57   And so I have gone down the path of trying to,

00:03:03   like, man in the middle of this thing

00:03:05   with Charles on the phone

00:03:06   to see if I could figure out their API

00:03:08   and just kind of work this out myself.

00:03:10   But as it turns out, the one and only thing

00:03:14   the Linear Pro Access app does well

00:03:17   is some sort of certificate pinning or something like that,

00:03:19   such that I can't sniff it with Charles.

00:03:21   Like, I'm talking a bit outside my comfort zone at this point

00:03:24   I'm not entirely clear what I'm talking about,

00:03:25   but it does seem clear that Charles

00:03:27   doesn't want to show me what I want to see.

00:03:29   So, now what?

00:03:32   Well, I've got a hammer and it's called the Raspberry Pi.

00:03:37   And everywhere I look there are nails.

00:03:39   - Oh no.

00:03:40   - So, what I've decided, the only reasonable answer

00:03:45   is to get two more Raspberry Pis.

00:03:47   Because why would I use the one I have

00:03:49   when I can get two more?

00:03:51   - To be fair, they are so cheap that you can do that.

00:03:54   - Well, right, that's the thing.

00:03:54   I don't need the big honking Pi 4 that I have for like,

00:03:58   well, I don't even need that for Pi hole,

00:03:59   but that's what I'm using it for

00:04:00   and I don't need it for my VPN.

00:04:01   Like, I'd probably use one of the Pi zeros

00:04:02   for any of these things,

00:04:03   but I do want the Pi 4 for emulation

00:04:05   as we talked about a few episodes back.

00:04:08   So, I thought to myself,

00:04:10   well, I could get a Raspberry Pi Zero wireless,

00:04:13   or ZeroW, whatever they call it,

00:04:14   which is literally $10 for the board.

00:04:16   This is an entire Linux computer for $10,

00:04:21   plus, you know, potentially plus shipping

00:04:22   and so on and so forth.

00:04:24   So, I thought to myself, what I can do is,

00:04:26   I can put a Pi Zero somewhere near the garage door

00:04:29   and get one of those magnetic,

00:04:31   I forget the term for it,

00:04:32   but one of those magnetic switches

00:04:33   where there's a piece on the garage door

00:04:36   and a piece on the door frame, right?

00:04:38   And when those pieces are very close to each other,

00:04:39   the circuit is closed,

00:04:41   and then when the door moves away,

00:04:43   thus the door is open, the circuit is opened.

00:04:46   Then what I can do is, in my bedroom,

00:04:49   I can put a second Pi Zero,

00:04:52   and then I can hook that up to an LED,

00:04:54   and the LED will come on when the door is open, right?

00:04:57   This is flawless.

00:04:58   And so, this afternoon,

00:05:00   I started writing Python for the first time

00:05:03   in probably 10 or 15 years,

00:05:04   and I figured out how to do multicast UDP

00:05:08   between two computers.

00:05:10   Like, I don't have any of the Pi Zeros yet.

00:05:12   I haven't actually committed anything yet

00:05:13   in terms of financial investment.

00:05:15   But I could send UDP messages between the two computers

00:05:19   so that they can talk to each other,

00:05:21   and then just before the show,

00:05:23   I figured out how to flip one of the GPIO,

00:05:26   which is, to say, one of the pins on the Raspberry Pi

00:05:30   that you can use for input or output.

00:05:31   I figured out with Python how to make it go high or go low,

00:05:34   which, to be fair, is extremely simple,

00:05:36   but I'd never done this before.

00:05:37   And so now I'm looking into, like, okay,

00:05:39   how do I, on the sensor side,

00:05:41   what script do I need to write

00:05:43   such that it'll see when the voltage is falling

00:05:45   or perhaps if the voltage is peaking,

00:05:47   and so I can get a call back and interrupt, I guess,

00:05:50   in order to figure out, okay,

00:05:51   now I need to send this multicast message

00:05:53   to the other Raspberry Pi.

00:05:54   And I am sure that there is

00:05:56   an infinitely simpler answer to this.

00:06:00   However, the one thing I'm not terribly keen on

00:06:02   is having to wire something from the garage to my bedroom,

00:06:06   which is silly because I won't mention publicly

00:06:08   that the bedroom is literally right over the garage,

00:06:11   but I don't wanna have to go through walls and whatnot

00:06:14   in order to wire everything,

00:06:15   so why not just put two $10 computers, one on either end,

00:06:19   and poof, it all works via the magic of wireless.

00:06:22   Problem solved.

00:06:23   - Why not just install two $1 mirrors?

00:06:26   (laughing)

00:06:28   - Because that, what am I gonna do, cut a hole in my floor?

00:06:31   Or, like, stick one out the window?

00:06:32   - Yeah, do, like, a, basically,

00:06:34   like a Periscope kind of arrangement.

00:06:36   Like, have one out the window, you can see,

00:06:38   that's angled, you know, 45 degrees,

00:06:40   and then below it, have another one angled 45 degrees

00:06:42   that looks at the door.

00:06:43   - Yeah, I mean, I guess I could, but that's no fun, man.

00:06:45   It's not as much fun.

00:06:47   - It'll work 100% of the time.

00:06:48   Never need software updates.

00:06:50   Doesn't depend on your connection.

00:06:52   - It's just no fun, and a lot of people are saying,

00:06:56   well, why not use Homebridge?

00:06:57   Well, I'd love to use Homebridge,

00:06:58   but there is no Homebridge interface

00:07:01   for linear garage door openers.

00:07:03   There is, for the Chamberlain MyQ that I used to use,

00:07:06   and before everyone asks,

00:07:07   we'll just use the Chamberlain MyQ in concert

00:07:10   with the linear Pro-Axis, and number one,

00:07:13   no, I don't wanna do that, number two,

00:07:15   I gave them MyQ away, so either way, I can't.

00:07:17   So yeah, so in the, in my effort to use a Raspberry Pi

00:07:23   for even the things that it is so unbelievably

00:07:26   unnecessary for, I have considered doing exactly this,

00:07:31   and you can't put any of this in the show,

00:07:32   because I don't wanna get well, actually,

00:07:33   for the rest of my life.

00:07:34   - So Rybur in the chat has an even better suggestion.

00:07:36   You can just use one mirror.

00:07:37   If you install it at the end of your driveway,

00:07:40   you could just look at that,

00:07:43   and then you could see, you wouldn't see it as closely

00:07:46   as my Prism setup, but it would be even easier.

00:07:50   You could probably put it on your mailbox

00:07:51   as long as you screw it on instead of stick it on.

00:07:54   - Possibly, yes, although given our last week's conversation

00:07:57   about the Homeowners Association,

00:07:58   I'm sure they would have things to say

00:07:59   about a mirror showing up on my mailbox.

00:08:02   Anyway, I just really wanna, all kidding aside,

00:08:06   I have every confidence that I could do this

00:08:10   without any sort of computing hardware whatsoever,

00:08:12   and probably have some sort of magnetic switch,

00:08:15   and a power supply, and an LED,

00:08:17   and wire that all through the house some way, somehow,

00:08:20   and it would be way more reliable,

00:08:22   and it would probably work forever,

00:08:24   but I don't know, it just seems like less fun.

00:08:26   And one of the things that makes the Raspberry Pi

00:08:31   so appealing to me, and presumably an Arduino

00:08:34   would work for this too, I just don't have any experience

00:08:36   with that personally, but one of the things

00:08:38   that makes it so appealing to me

00:08:40   is the idea of just doing something that's unusual

00:08:42   and different for me.

00:08:43   Like, I never play with hardware.

00:08:45   I think both of you potentially, or certainly,

00:08:48   Marco, you've played with hardware a lot more than I have

00:08:50   with your RFID scanner that you did a couple years back,

00:08:53   and I'm sure there's other examples I'm not thinking of.

00:08:55   Well, like all your retro gaming stuff.

00:08:58   But nonetheless, this is an itch I've never really scratched

00:09:02   and I kinda wanna try it just to see if I can do it,

00:09:06   and it may end up that it doesn't work for beans,

00:09:08   maybe there's something that I'm not thinking of

00:09:10   that will cause it to not work at all,

00:09:12   maybe it'll be deeply unreliable,

00:09:14   or maybe I'll just realize, okay, this is really cool,

00:09:17   I like having this LED in the room that shines

00:09:19   when the garage door is open, but why do I need

00:09:21   two internet connector, well, network,

00:09:24   intranet connected computers to do this?

00:09:26   I could just use a couple of frickin' wires.

00:09:28   So I don't debate that there are better ways

00:09:30   of accomplishing this goal, but I do debate

00:09:33   if there are more fun ways of accomplishing this goal.

00:09:36   So here we are.

00:09:37   Never underestimate the smart home for the ability

00:09:41   to introduce needless complexity and unreliability

00:09:44   into what should and always has been very simple tasks

00:09:48   and roles of objects in your home.

00:09:50   - Yep, it's so true.

00:09:52   I don't know, like all kidding aside,

00:09:53   if not a prism scenario, if you had to do something

00:09:57   that involved some amount of electronics,

00:09:58   now that doesn't necessarily mean an Arduino

00:10:01   or a Raspberry Pi or something like that,

00:10:02   how would you solve this problem?

00:10:04   - I just don't leave the garage door open.

00:10:06   I mean, first of all, how often are you leaving

00:10:08   the house right now?

00:10:10   - Well, that's true too, that's also true.

00:10:12   - Yeah, I just, I mean, we have a garage

00:10:13   with an electric door and we move the car into it

00:10:18   when we arrive and then we close the door behind us.

00:10:21   And when we wanna leave, we open the door,

00:10:24   back the car out, and then close the door and then leave.

00:10:27   - But that's the thing, is that oftentimes

00:10:29   we will open the garage door for the purposes

00:10:31   of letting the kids play or maybe even pull a car out

00:10:33   so the kids can play in the garage and the driveway.

00:10:36   So I take your point that our cars are not leaving

00:10:39   the driveway very often, but the cars are leaving

00:10:41   the garage semi-often, and occasionally the cars

00:10:43   won't leave the garage, we'll just open it up,

00:10:45   play for a while, come in, and maybe just leave it open

00:10:47   because there was no compelling reason to close it

00:10:48   at that moment, and it's very rare, truth be told,

00:10:53   I think it's only like three or four times a year

00:10:55   that we have left the garage door open overnight,

00:10:57   but it annoys me, and this would be a neat way to fix it,

00:10:59   a neat, uselessly complicated way to fix it.

00:11:02   - That will sometimes mostly fix it for a little while.

00:11:05   - Yeah, exactly, until something breaks.

00:11:06   A very good question also from Rybur in the chat,

00:11:09   do I have any old phone jacks in the house

00:11:11   I could piggyback off of?

00:11:12   I do in general, but I don't anywhere in the vicinity

00:11:17   of the garage that I'm aware of, so it's a good idea,

00:11:20   but no, I don't think I have anything.

00:11:22   So I am not looking for, I am not necessarily looking

00:11:24   for input about this, 'cause really it's an excuse

00:11:28   for me to do something stupid, I acknowledge it's stupid,

00:11:30   I acknowledge it's uselessly complicated,

00:11:32   but I think it would be fun.

00:11:34   - So other than just not forgetting,

00:11:37   you haven't really given me an answer,

00:11:38   is there any electronic-equipped way

00:11:39   that you would consider doing this?

00:11:42   - Me?

00:11:42   No.

00:11:43   - Yeah, or John, but I'll start with you.

00:11:45   - I don't think, I mean, so okay, one thing I've wanted

00:11:48   for a while, which could solve this problem,

00:11:52   but it's not really meant to be like a fixed thing,

00:11:55   I've wanted basically something that was,

00:11:58   it's almost solvable by a baby monitor,

00:12:01   and I don't know if this exists,

00:12:02   I've looked around a little while and couldn't find it.

00:12:05   So what I want is a battery-powered camera

00:12:10   that I can stick somewhere, like a suction cup,

00:12:12   like a GoPro, like a small battery-powered camera

00:12:16   that I can move around the house easily,

00:12:19   and a small video monitor that can show

00:12:21   what's on that camera live, and they're both portable,

00:12:25   wireless, and would just have batteries.

00:12:27   And the idea here is sometimes I need to keep my eye

00:12:31   on something, and it's somewhere around the house

00:12:34   or something, but it's not always the same place.

00:12:36   So one example might be if you're doing a load of laundry,

00:12:39   I would stick the camera in the laundry room

00:12:41   looking at the machine, so you could see whenever you want

00:12:45   how much time is left, what's the status of the machine.

00:12:47   Similarly, if I'm like roasting coffee

00:12:49   and I wanna go do some work during the boring

00:12:52   first 10 minutes of it, or if I'm cooking something

00:12:56   in the oven or on the grill that takes a long time

00:12:57   and I have a thermometer, yeah, they have

00:12:59   wireless thermometers, they suck, and I have

00:13:02   a nice wired one, so I could just have this looking

00:13:05   at the thermometer screen and I could be in the office

00:13:07   watching the video screen, stuff like that, common needs.

00:13:11   And there's lots of IP cameras, and then you run

00:13:14   an app on your phone, that all is garbage and it sucks,

00:13:17   and I hate it, I've tried those, they're terrible.

00:13:20   And what I want can almost be solved by a baby monitor,

00:13:22   except that usually the camera side of it is AC-powered only

00:13:27   and then the monitor itself is kind of free

00:13:30   to roam around with batteries.

00:13:33   And I want this product to not use the internet at all,

00:13:35   I want it to just be based on RF, like just give me

00:13:38   like 2.4 gigahertz, just like good baby monitors are.

00:13:42   So it's just instant, there's no service involved,

00:13:45   there's no giant latency, there's no service fee,

00:13:48   just a freaking piece of hardware.

00:13:50   And hardware is so cheap these days, I assume

00:13:53   that has to be easily possible, but I haven't looked

00:13:55   too much into it.

00:13:56   Anyway, that same thing could do this if I had one

00:14:00   in the garage.

00:14:01   That being said, I just closed the garage door.

00:14:04   - Well, and generally speaking, we really are pretty good

00:14:06   about this, this isn't like a chronic affliction,

00:14:08   but it's something that, I don't know, it happens

00:14:11   once in a while, and this would be a fun little challenge

00:14:14   to see if I could fix it.

00:14:14   This is very MacGyvery, but for those of us who are old,

00:14:17   a very MacGyvery solution, but I just think it'd be fun.

00:14:20   John, you've been very quiet, I can hardly wait to hear

00:14:23   how you would solve this problem.

00:14:25   - I need a Raspberry Pi to let me figure out how the hell

00:14:27   to get logged into their stupid IRC server

00:14:29   with my supposedly registered NIC.

00:14:32   I can't, it's because of this new IRC client,

00:14:35   like I don't, it's disconnection between me and IRC.

00:14:39   Like I do slash NIC and put a name in it,

00:14:41   and it's just like nothing happens.

00:14:44   Sometimes something happens, it's driving me nuts.

00:14:47   For your garage door stuff, just close the garage door,

00:14:50   JKZ, just, you don't have too much room.

00:14:52   How much do you have to remember in life, really?

00:14:53   Make sure both of your children are accounted for.

00:14:56   You have two of them, so count heads, one, two.

00:14:59   - Well, that didn't work on Home Alone, man.

00:15:00   - Remember to feed them, remember to clothe yourself,

00:15:04   bathe, you know, do all the things.

00:15:07   Close, do you remember to close the front door to your house?

00:15:09   Or do you leave that open a lot too?

00:15:10   - No, no, no, close, yes, lock,

00:15:12   very rarely we forget to lock it.

00:15:14   - I think we just gotta climb the ladder

00:15:16   of things the KZ has to remember.

00:15:17   He remembers to close the front door, not always to lock it.

00:15:20   The garage door is still working on the remember to close.

00:15:23   - What I would look for is a solution for this

00:15:25   that would just, instead of being like,

00:15:27   let me know if the garage door is open,

00:15:30   just close the garage door at the time in which you think

00:15:32   the garage door needs to be closed for the day,

00:15:34   whatever time that is.

00:15:35   Like I have a thing on my lights that says,

00:15:38   just turn off all lights at like a certain time,

00:15:41   when I'm like, look, the day is over.

00:15:42   If I've somehow forgotten to turn the lights off,

00:15:44   just turn them off, right?

00:15:46   And I know that is complicated 'cause it's like,

00:15:47   well, it just has one button,

00:15:48   and when you press it when it's closed, it opens,

00:15:50   and when you press it when it's open, it's closed.

00:15:51   But I believe in your ability to solve this problem.

00:15:54   That's what I would do.

00:15:54   I don't want to know if the garage door is open.

00:15:56   I just want it to close itself if I've left it open.

00:15:59   - That's fair.

00:16:01   - I don't even have a garage door opener, by the way.

00:16:03   Mine opens with the power of muscles, so.

00:16:06   - Really?

00:16:07   - Yeah.

00:16:08   - Because it's broken or because that's the way

00:16:09   it's always been?

00:16:10   - Because it's broken, yes.

00:16:11   Spoken like someone who lives in a development

00:16:13   made in the '90s.

00:16:14   No, not because it's broken, Casey,

00:16:16   because there has never been a powered way

00:16:17   to open or close my garage door.

00:16:21   So remember that Mac Mini that I was gonna order

00:16:23   for my Studio B upstairs?

00:16:25   - Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:16:26   - Got that in, long story short,

00:16:28   I had to return the first one.

00:16:29   I had a problem, but I got the second one in today.

00:16:31   Installing and setting everything up.

00:16:33   I, for the first time in a while,

00:16:37   set up a completely new installation of macOS

00:16:40   without importing from anything,

00:16:42   without importing from your previous laptop

00:16:43   or anything like that,

00:16:44   and I had to install from scratch

00:16:47   for the first time in a while, Dropbox.

00:16:50   Now, Casey, I know that you have not had

00:16:52   the Dropbox app installed for some time.

00:16:55   - Yeah, a few months now.

00:16:56   - And it had been a while since I had seen

00:16:58   the fresh install.

00:17:00   The way I run Dropbox is, first of all, reluctantly.

00:17:04   Second of all, I run it without its stupid

00:17:10   kernel extension, so I don't use Smart Sync

00:17:13   or any of the other stuff that requires

00:17:14   the kernel extension.

00:17:16   I don't give it accessibility full permission

00:17:19   over my entire system.

00:17:20   - Wait, pause.

00:17:21   How do you not install the kernel extension?

00:17:23   Is there a point in which they give you the option not to?

00:17:26   - I'll get there.

00:17:27   - Okay, okay, carry on.

00:17:28   - So yeah, I don't install the stupid kernel extension

00:17:30   because I don't want, that sounds crazy to me

00:17:32   and it's not worth the risk and instability

00:17:34   that could introduce.

00:17:36   Dropbox is not a company that I trust

00:17:38   to write good software, simple as that.

00:17:41   And also, sorry, no extension,

00:17:43   no accessibility full access,

00:17:47   because again, it has no reason to need that

00:17:49   in my opinion for the things I need to do.

00:17:51   And there's also a dialog every time you reboot usually

00:17:55   where it tries to get you to give it your system password

00:17:59   in a dialog box that looks like the system

00:18:03   password dialog authentication box but isn't.

00:18:05   Basically, it's tricking you

00:18:07   and it's horrible security practices, right?

00:18:10   So I never give it that password.

00:18:13   On a fresh installation, doing this fresh,

00:18:17   they have made it harder than ever to achieve this setup.

00:18:21   - That's not surprising.

00:18:22   - The stuff they do is so misleading,

00:18:25   so incredibly unethical, it's just so many

00:18:29   dark design patterns, it is so hard

00:18:33   to get through that installation

00:18:34   without giving them full access to your entire system

00:18:37   at the kernel level and giving them your admin password

00:18:40   and giving them accessibility full permission

00:18:41   to look at everything you're doing in the system.

00:18:44   It's absurd, so I have never in my life

00:18:47   been more angry at Dropbox than I am this morning and today.

00:18:51   I've decided I'm done with them,

00:18:52   I am going to quit Dropbox.

00:18:53   So I wanted to ask you, Casey,

00:18:56   how you've done it so far and how it's working out,

00:18:59   because really, it's just malware at this point.

00:19:03   It is more invasive to your system

00:19:05   than most malware would be.

00:19:07   Most malware wouldn't have the guts to do what Dropbox does.

00:19:11   It's so bad, I'm so offended by the horribleness

00:19:16   of what Dropbox does and how much it tries

00:19:19   to insert itself into every single part of your system

00:19:21   for reasons that mostly benefit them and not you.

00:19:24   It's just absurd, and so I'm done.

00:19:27   So what is the world after Dropbox like for you?

00:19:31   How did you get there and how have you been finding it?

00:19:34   - It is important to understand the context

00:19:36   for what I'm about to say, which is,

00:19:38   as I've said many times over the last couple of months,

00:19:40   one of the best worst things that has come

00:19:42   from all my computer problems is that my computers

00:19:45   are basically ephemeral at this point.

00:19:48   I could lose one of them and really,

00:19:52   I'm sure I would, I don't doubt there'd be some file

00:19:55   somewhere that I would miss, I'm sure there would be.

00:19:57   But in the grand scheme of things, I would be fine.

00:20:01   Like if this Mac Pro, iMac Pro, I almost said Mac Pro,

00:20:04   if this iMac Pro just took a dump right now,

00:20:08   I can't think of anything that I literally could not

00:20:10   live without, and I do have backups, but at the same time,

00:20:14   like even leaving those backups aside,

00:20:16   I can't think of anything that I would be like,

00:20:18   (gasps)

00:20:18   oh no, you know what I mean?

00:20:20   And that's the same of my laptop,

00:20:22   and other than not having a phone,

00:20:24   it's really the same in my phone too.

00:20:26   I think on my phone I would lose a couple of weeks

00:20:28   worth of pictures potentially if they're not

00:20:30   in my photo stream, but that's about it.

00:20:34   So--

00:20:35   - Wait, you still aren't using iCloud Photo Library?

00:20:37   - No, because reasons, we can belittle me

00:20:40   about that another time.

00:20:40   We can belittle me about that another time, I deserve it.

00:20:42   But we're gonna set that aside.

00:20:44   So yeah, so my computers don't really have anything

00:20:50   extremely critical on them, and the only stuff

00:20:54   that's really, really critical that is on my computers

00:20:57   is either in a Git repository that is synced with GitHub,

00:21:02   or in Synology Drive, which is my replacement for Dropbox.

00:21:07   Now, Synology Drive suffers from the same problem

00:21:09   as Apple TV.

00:21:10   When I say Synology Drive, I can be referring

00:21:12   to one of 34 different products, and 75 versions

00:21:16   of those 34 different products, and it is infuriating.

00:21:20   But there is a client that you can install on Mac OS,

00:21:24   and the UI is not stupendous, it looks like it's a Java app,

00:21:28   or something like that, but the good news is,

00:21:30   I never see the UI for the most part.

00:21:32   Like I see the little thing in the menu bar, and that's it.

00:21:35   Like, I never really see the UI,

00:21:37   I never really interact with the UI, because why?

00:21:39   Because it just magically is part of Finder,

00:21:41   like Dropbox used to be back when it was good,

00:21:44   back when they didn't give a shit about work chat,

00:21:47   or whatever the stupid things are that they're doing

00:21:49   that's like Evernote, which also went down the toilet.

00:21:53   So it's very similar to Dropbox in the days of Jor

00:21:58   when Dropbox was still good.

00:22:00   It is not perfect.

00:22:02   The iOS apps in particular, they function fine,

00:22:05   but their integration with the iOS Files app

00:22:08   is very janky, from what I can tell.

00:22:11   To be fair, I haven't tried this in a few months,

00:22:12   but as an example, I am a super nerd,

00:22:15   and I like to keep a log of every time

00:22:19   we put gas in our cars.

00:22:21   You see, Marco, some of us put old liquified dinosaurs

00:22:25   into our cars, and that's how we propel them.

00:22:27   I know that's very barbaric,

00:22:28   but some of us are still living in the past.

00:22:30   - And that's not the part that sounds like the past.

00:22:35   The part that sounds the past is you're keeping a gas log.

00:22:38   - Well, that's true, too.

00:22:39   - Like, it's one thing if it's part of your work

00:22:41   that you get reimbursed for fuel.

00:22:43   That's not true for you.

00:22:45   - Nope, nope, nope, nope.

00:22:46   - Okay, all right.

00:22:47   - So anyway, so leaving that aside,

00:22:50   but what I'll do is occasionally--

00:22:51   - It's leaving somebody open tangents here.

00:22:53   - I know.

00:22:55   God willing, we'll forget all of them, including me.

00:22:57   So anyway, so what I'll occasionally do is,

00:23:00   especially if I'm with Erin and she's filling up her car,

00:23:03   I'll wanna take my phone and go to my numbers spreadsheet

00:23:06   that is stored in Synology Drive

00:23:08   and edit it using the Files app.

00:23:11   So I'll load the Files app,

00:23:13   go into the Synology Drive section,

00:23:14   find the numbers file I'm trying to edit,

00:23:17   open it up in numbers on my iPad or iPhone,

00:23:21   and like eight times out of 10,

00:23:23   I'm looking at a several version old version of that file,

00:23:26   because I think that was the last time

00:23:27   that the Files app within my iOS device opened it.

00:23:31   Does that make any sense at all?

00:23:32   - Yes.

00:23:33   - So that kinda sucks.

00:23:36   So if you're relying on integration with the Files app,

00:23:39   last I checked, not great.

00:23:42   But for Macs and for the Synology Drive app

00:23:45   on your iOS device, if you're not involving the Files app,

00:23:48   it works pretty much flawlessly.

00:23:50   And I probably should be a little clearer about what it is.

00:23:52   It's basically hosted Dropbox

00:23:54   where the host is your Synology.

00:23:56   So all your files exist on your Synology.

00:23:58   It'll replicate them between all your devices in real time.

00:24:01   And it seems to, as far as I can tell,

00:24:04   work extremely reliably in that capacity.

00:24:08   The only downside I see, well, there's two, I suppose.

00:24:11   One, you don't know which friggin' thing

00:24:14   you have to download and what you need to install

00:24:16   in the Synology to get this version of Drive.

00:24:18   And it's very frustrating in that regard,

00:24:20   because there's, so to speak, not literally,

00:24:22   there's Drive, Drive Plus, Drive the hardware device,

00:24:26   Drive the software, Drive the old software,

00:24:28   Drive the new software, Drive for iOS, you know what I mean?

00:24:30   It's like the same thing as Apple TV.

00:24:32   Oh, the Apple TV, the hardware Apple TV,

00:24:33   the software Apple TV, plus the service.

00:24:36   It's preposterous in that regard.

00:24:37   That's the one downside.

00:24:38   The other downside is Files app integration iOS

00:24:41   is a little eh, but other than that,

00:24:43   like especially if you're just viewing this

00:24:45   from a keeping my Macs in sync perspective,

00:24:48   and then maybe every great once in a while,

00:24:50   I'll look at something in the Synology Drive app

00:24:51   on your iOS device, ChefKiss, it's good to go.

00:24:54   I don't know why I haven't done it already.

00:24:56   The question I really need to ask you too is,

00:24:58   are we gonna choose to move to iCloud shared folders

00:25:00   to pass MP3s between each other?

00:25:03   - No.

00:25:04   - I just, I don't trust it.

00:25:06   I just don't trust it.

00:25:08   It had such a rough launch,

00:25:10   I think it's gonna need even more time

00:25:12   of it just being boring and working for everybody

00:25:14   all the time before I will really trust it.

00:25:17   - Well then, you can do what I do and load Dropbox.com

00:25:20   every time you need to upload a file,

00:25:22   'cause that's how I do it.

00:25:23   I do not have Dropbox installed on any of my Macs.

00:25:26   It might be on my iOS devices.

00:25:28   It's been so long since I've touched it,

00:25:30   I don't even know, to be honest.

00:25:31   - Well on iOS, it's safe, right?

00:25:32   'Cause I know, this is one of the advantages

00:25:35   of the iOS extreme security sandbox approach,

00:25:39   is you can trust that there's not that much bad stuff

00:25:43   that any app can do, and if you wanted to get rid of it,

00:25:46   you could just delete it and it's all gone,

00:25:48   but you know, I as a developer know

00:25:50   that the Dropbox iOS app can't do almost any of this stuff

00:25:55   that I have a problem with.

00:25:56   Like, it really can't do any of it, actually.

00:25:59   There's very little ability for it to do anything

00:26:02   that would even be remotely shady on iOS,

00:26:06   yet on the Mac, it basically behaves like a rootkit,

00:26:09   and it's like one of the most popular pieces

00:26:13   of software in the world.

00:26:14   And it's gotten worse and worse.

00:26:17   So the good thing is, they have recently rewritten

00:26:20   their sync engine, so whereas before,

00:26:23   it would just consume one entire core

00:26:26   when you're doing anything else in the file system

00:26:28   that isn't even in Dropbox directory,

00:26:29   like unzipping a new Xcode in your downloads folder,

00:26:33   or whatever, it would just consume one core.

00:26:35   Now, they've made it so that it can consume

00:26:38   multiple cores of your computer

00:26:39   when you're not even doing anything with Dropbox.

00:26:41   - Delightful.

00:26:42   - Yeah, so they've really expanded the scope

00:26:45   of the amount of resources that can suck

00:26:47   from your computer for no good reason.

00:26:49   Yeah, I'm getting rid of it.

00:26:50   Like, I've already decided I'm done.

00:26:51   My only question's like, what do I do to fix,

00:26:54   to alleviate some of these needs for it that I've had?

00:26:57   - Oh, and the other thing I'll say with Drive

00:26:58   is that I haven't explored doing any sort

00:27:01   of public file sharing, so I don't think

00:27:05   it would be easy for you and me to share,

00:27:08   or the three of us to share files,

00:27:09   unless I like, had you guys, or I created accounts

00:27:13   for you guys on my Synology, which, I mean, I can,

00:27:16   but it seems a little bit overkill.

00:27:18   And then you would have to like, point Drive,

00:27:20   'cause it seems like you can point Drive

00:27:21   at several different destinations concurrently,

00:27:23   and so you would have to point Drive at my Synology,

00:27:27   at our shared folder, which again, like, we can do that,

00:27:30   but it's nowhere near as easy as Dropbox,

00:27:32   where you basically say, take this folder,

00:27:33   share it with that email address,

00:27:34   and just make magic happen.

00:27:35   Because again, back when Dropbox was good,

00:27:38   that was one of the great things about it.

00:27:39   You could just say, share this folder with Marco and John,

00:27:42   and poof, it's shared.

00:27:43   And that I do miss, although in my case,

00:27:47   the only thing I'm ever really sharing with anyone,

00:27:49   I guess 'cause I'm a jerk or because I work alone,

00:27:51   is files with you, you too, or files with Mike.

00:27:56   And I'll just go to the Dropbox website for that.

00:27:58   - So this may seem like a dumb question,

00:28:01   but why don't we just use like FTP?

00:28:04   Like, I have a server, I have many servers, actually.

00:28:07   Like, why don't we just-- (laughing)

00:28:09   Why don't I just like, set up a folder

00:28:11   on my Marco.org server, and just set up

00:28:14   like, an SFTP server there,

00:28:16   and that's where we put our files?

00:28:17   Like, is there, you know, like,

00:28:19   obviously this kind of solution doesn't work

00:28:20   for people who need to interact

00:28:21   with a whole bunch of other people.

00:28:23   But for us, we were mainly interacting

00:28:25   with the same very small handful of people

00:28:26   who were all nerds.

00:28:28   Like, why don't we just do that?

00:28:29   - I mean, you certainly could.

00:28:30   - Doesn't the Finder have native integration?

00:28:32   Like, couldn't you literally have like,

00:28:33   a thing in your Finder sidebar that just was,

00:28:37   we just call it the ATP Dropbox or whatever,

00:28:39   and it would just go there?

00:28:39   Like, wouldn't that work?

00:28:41   - You're afraid of using the Dropbox software,

00:28:43   and you wanna use the Finder's FTP integration?

00:28:46   (laughing)

00:28:48   - You make a good point.

00:28:49   - I don't know if that still even exists,

00:28:50   but I would really not trust that code.

00:28:52   I would use Transmit or something,

00:28:53   and then I'd have to launch another app.

00:28:55   - Oh yeah, I would use Transmit too,

00:28:56   but you know, it'd be nice if there could be,

00:28:58   like, of all the many different protocols

00:29:02   that Finder does support for various network

00:29:05   and internet shares, it would be nice to use,

00:29:07   like, does WebDAV, is that still a thing that exists?

00:29:10   - No, I'm not using WebDAV.

00:29:11   - It does exist.

00:29:11   (laughing)

00:29:12   It does exist.

00:29:13   - Yeah, so like, you know, maybe we could just do

00:29:15   whatever the heck WebDAV was. (laughing)

00:29:18   I still am not entirely clear.

00:29:19   - SFTP is the homegrown solution, but you know, whatever.

00:29:24   (laughing)

00:29:25   Like, it gets annoying for, if you're not just using it

00:29:28   as a literal Dropbox, you know, where you're just

00:29:31   dumping things in, the two-way syncing

00:29:33   and the always liveness is the feature you want.

00:29:35   I mean, you can use OneDrive for Microsoft,

00:29:37   Google has a solution, there's all,

00:29:39   lots of companies make products similar to Dropbox.

00:29:41   - But see, I feel like if I'm gonna, like,

00:29:43   finally leave the, you know, the experience

00:29:47   and network effect of Dropbox, I don't think

00:29:51   I really want to just go to another thing

00:29:53   that's just like it, also run by a giant enterprise-y

00:29:55   company that wants probably to do more stuff

00:29:58   with my system, at least now, if not in the future.

00:30:00   So like, first of all, I'm not gonna install

00:30:02   Google's software, 'cause even trust issues aside,

00:30:06   I've heard nothing but horrible things about Google's,

00:30:09   like, system demons that you have to install

00:30:10   for things like their photo uploader and stuff like that.

00:30:12   Like, everyone says they suck.

00:30:13   - Yep, they do, or they did a year ago, anyway,

00:30:16   I can't speak of recently.

00:30:17   - Yeah, I mean, maybe they're better now,

00:30:18   but probably not, right?

00:30:19   Like, just like, you know, maybe iCloud Drive

00:30:21   is better now, probably not, right?

00:30:22   So like, I'm not super keen on that.

00:30:26   And yeah, Microsoft too, it's like, you know,

00:30:28   Microsoft probably does a better job than Google,

00:30:30   but I can't imagine it's good, necessarily,

00:30:32   like in absolute terms.

00:30:34   So if I can avoid having some kind of always running

00:30:37   persistent demon by one of these giant companies

00:30:39   that has a lot more interest than just syncing

00:30:42   the folder, I'd rather avoid that if I can.

00:30:45   So that's why I like looking at something like

00:30:46   either just using the Dropbox website,

00:30:48   or using Transmit's built-in Dropbox client functionality,

00:30:50   if that still works, I gotta investigate that,

00:30:53   or, you know, using just like an FTP server,

00:30:55   I'd rather do options like that.

00:30:57   - You know, if all you were doing is sending MP3 files

00:31:01   with iCloud, shared iCloud folders,

00:31:03   I personally would be fine with trusting it,

00:31:06   as long as that was not the only place

00:31:08   that these files existed.

00:31:09   You know, so as an example, when I upload something

00:31:12   to Dropbox, I am uploading a duplicate of that file

00:31:15   to Dropbox, so if Dropbox just went poof

00:31:17   in a cloud of smoke, it's not like that file disappears.

00:31:20   You know, and if we made a gentleman's agreement

00:31:22   that we weren't moving the only copy of our recordings

00:31:25   into the iCloud shared drive, but rather a duplicate,

00:31:29   like whatever, I don't think that would be a problem.

00:31:31   - Yeah, copy, not move.

00:31:32   - No, it would be a problem, because the problem

00:31:35   would happen is that you'd copy it into there,

00:31:38   and then you'd go to sleep, and then Marco would be like

00:31:40   doing an all night edit, and your file would have been

00:31:43   corrupted or half written or overwritten itself

00:31:46   or missing entirely, and then he's trying to wake you up

00:31:48   for you to try again to copy it,

00:31:50   'cause your copy didn't work, and of course,

00:31:51   you don't see those 'cause you're asleep,

00:31:52   and have do not disturb on, and then you wake up

00:31:53   in the morning with 20 frantic messages from Marco,

00:31:55   who couldn't make the show.

00:31:56   - Isn't the potential for that the same

00:31:58   no matter what option you pick?

00:31:59   - No, no, 'cause that's the whole thing with iCloud Drive,

00:32:02   that half the time, like, your files disappear,

00:32:04   or were there briefly and aren't there,

00:32:05   or replaced with older versions themselves,

00:32:08   or disappear entirely, or stop updating on your end,

00:32:11   but that's the whole thing, like,

00:32:13   the reliability aspect of it.

00:32:15   Just because Casey thinks he successfully copied it,

00:32:17   and it looks like it's done, doesn't mean it shows up

00:32:20   on your end, that's the whole, you know,

00:32:22   occasionally you have to like, sign out of iCloud

00:32:25   and nuke all your data and log back in,

00:32:27   and you know, that debugging procedure,

00:32:29   especially if you use iCloud Photo Library,

00:32:30   you don't ever wanna sign out of iCloud on your Mac.

00:32:33   - Oh, forget it, no.

00:32:35   - Right, so that's, you know, oh, I don't know why

00:32:37   it's not syncing, I copied it on my side,

00:32:38   and then Marco's like, well, I don't see it

00:32:40   over on this side, and then, you know, no.

00:32:42   No to iCloud Drive, SFDP, yes, iCloud Drive, no.

00:32:46   (laughing)

00:32:47   - Well, for what it's worth, I would hope that Marco

00:32:49   would be privy to, or at least aware enough to,

00:32:53   call me twice in short succession if he needed

00:32:57   to wake me up to get this file in, you know,

00:32:58   in an emergency, 'cause I do--

00:32:59   - I would never do that.

00:33:01   - And then you'd still have to get the file,

00:33:02   you're like, well, I copied it, what else should I do?

00:33:04   And then you'd say, I don't know, let me just try Dropbox,

00:33:06   and then it would sync, and then get your file.

00:33:07   (laughing)

00:33:08   - Well, that's true.

00:33:10   I should say that a lot of people, when I was exploring this

00:33:13   before I started running Synology Drive,

00:33:15   to my recollection, and I'm seeing it a lot in the chat,

00:33:17   other than the, like, Google Drives and Office,

00:33:20   Microsoft Live, whatever thing that Microsoft does,

00:33:24   a lot of people said both Next Cloud and Own Cloud.

00:33:27   To be clear, I know basically nothing about either of them,

00:33:30   but I did hear a lot of people say that both of them

00:33:32   are very good, so if you wanted something, Marco,

00:33:35   that was not self-hosted, or I'm assuming

00:33:39   they're not self-hosted, they very well may be,

00:33:41   it ultimately doesn't matter.

00:33:43   If you're interested in this, Marco/listener,

00:33:45   look it up yourself, but those are other options.

00:33:48   I think, personally, for the three of us, yeah,

00:33:52   like, I would be okay to try iCloud Drive,

00:33:55   but I would also be perfectly fine to SFTP it,

00:33:56   or you know, or SCP it, or whatever, somewhere.

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00:35:51   - Ready to start the show?

00:35:55   (laughing)

00:35:56   Let's start with some follow-up 39 minutes in.

00:35:59   - I mean, technically that was Mac mini follow-up for me.

00:36:02   - Good job.

00:36:03   (laughing)

00:36:04   - All right, Jon, tell me, how was your new video card?

00:36:08   - It's big, new video card is big.

00:36:11   First, you know, when this package arrived,

00:36:13   it got delayed again, it actually came today,

00:36:15   as opposed to like almost a week ago,

00:36:18   that I expected it to come.

00:36:19   And I knew it arrived today, hearing it land on my doorstep,

00:36:24   apparently thrown from the curb, I'm not sure

00:36:27   from how far away this thing was thrown,

00:36:28   but it like landed on my doorstep so loudly

00:36:31   that I could hear it across the house.

00:36:32   I'm like, I guess my package is here.

00:36:34   - Oh God.

00:36:35   - Thank goodness for Apple's very sturdy,

00:36:38   very cool packaging, you know, and double boxing.

00:36:41   And anyway, it seems to be intact.

00:36:43   When I was installing it, I was just revealing,

00:36:46   oh, this is the Radeon Pro W5700X with 16 gigs of RAM.

00:36:53   It's a single GPU, it's AMD's newish GPU architecture,

00:36:58   but it's a workstation-ish card.

00:37:02   Anyway, you can look up the specs.

00:37:04   So it's, it takes up, I don't know what the, it's for you.

00:37:09   It takes up four slots on the back of your,

00:37:11   poor PCI slots on the back of your computer.

00:37:12   That's how high it is, right?

00:37:13   So the card just goes in one, it's an MPX module.

00:37:15   So it's got PCI connector, and then it's got

00:37:18   this other connector that it gets like power

00:37:19   and other crap through.

00:37:20   Anyway, there's two of those things inside a Mac Pro.

00:37:24   There is an MPX slot at the very, very bottom,

00:37:27   and then kind of in the middle-ish,

00:37:28   there's another MPX slot.

00:37:29   Those are the only two places in the computer

00:37:31   you can put one of these MPX modules

00:37:33   that has the two big honking connectors on it, right?

00:37:35   Lots of other PCI slots are plain old cards,

00:37:37   but these MPX modules can only go in those two spots.

00:37:39   So right away, I'm faced with the decision,

00:37:41   do I put this thing in the bottom slot

00:37:44   where my old 580X was, or do I put it in the middle?

00:37:48   So first I took the 580X out.

00:37:50   So now there's nothing in there.

00:37:51   I'm looking at the options, and I'm like, hmm.

00:37:54   If I put it at the bottom,

00:37:56   like it's right next to the power supply,

00:37:59   maybe it would be better if I put it in the middle,

00:38:01   'cause then it would be like power supply, empty space,

00:38:05   big honking GPU, empty space, CPU.

00:38:08   You know what I mean?

00:38:09   And I decided to do that.

00:38:13   I took out all the little spacers,

00:38:15   which are really cool, by the way,

00:38:16   the little black covers for your PCI slots.

00:38:19   Those are nice.

00:38:20   They're worth a lot on eBay someday.

00:38:21   I'm gonna save those for my kids' college fund/retirement.

00:38:25   And I put it in the middle,

00:38:28   but once I had it in the middle,

00:38:29   I realized it's not really well lined up

00:38:31   with the middle fan.

00:38:33   I was hoping the middle fan would blow directly onto it,

00:38:38   but it was more like it was catching

00:38:39   like either the top or the bottom of the middle fan,

00:38:41   and I didn't really like that.

00:38:43   So I took it out.

00:38:44   After putting it in the middle,

00:38:45   I took it out of the middle,

00:38:47   and I said, all right, you're gonna go on the bottom.

00:38:48   It's the only other choice.

00:38:49   So I put it in the bottom,

00:38:51   and that seemed better lined up with the bottom fan.

00:38:53   The bottom fan is blowing like right on the new GPU.

00:38:56   Even though it's up against the power supply,

00:38:59   that's the best option,

00:39:00   which is interesting because if you think about,

00:39:02   the three fans are sort of evenly spaced

00:39:04   in the front of the computer.

00:39:05   The top one is very well aligned with the CPU heat sink.

00:39:09   It's that big giant fan, and then your CPU heat sink.

00:39:11   But the bottom two are not really well aligned

00:39:14   with any of the slots.

00:39:15   Anyway, so I got the thing in the bottom,

00:39:18   and then I've got the 580X outside the thing.

00:39:21   I was gonna pack away the 580X in the packaging

00:39:24   that the big one came in and just put it in my attic,

00:39:25   but I was like, you know what?

00:39:27   Let me try sticking it in this computer too.

00:39:29   And of course I only have one choice of where it goes,

00:39:31   the other MPX slot, which just so happens to be,

00:39:34   basically touching the thing.

00:39:35   So it's like the 4U thing, and then the 2U,

00:39:39   even the 580X is 2U because both of these GPUs

00:39:43   have gigantic front to back, top to bottom heat sinks.

00:39:48   There's no fans or anything in there.

00:39:49   They're just all giant heat sink fans.

00:39:51   So I put the 580X back in, what the hell,

00:39:54   closed the whole thing back up, turned everything on.

00:39:57   The absurdity of my computer now is that,

00:40:01   if you look at the back of it, I have by my count,

00:40:04   10 places where I can plug in monitors.

00:40:06   And I can drive 10 monitors, like no problem.

00:40:11   I've got two GPUs in there and I can drive 10 monitors

00:40:14   off this thing.

00:40:15   I think, I don't know, how many 6Ks can I can do?

00:40:17   I think I can do three 6Ks, and then seven 5Ks maybe?

00:40:22   I don't even know.

00:40:24   Anyway, there's an absurd amount of places

00:40:26   where I can plug in monitors,

00:40:28   and I have one monitor to plug into it.

00:40:31   The interesting thing is I can plug that one monitor

00:40:34   into a lot of different places.

00:40:36   My new video card comes with four Thunderbolt ports

00:40:39   on the back, right?

00:40:40   Plus one HDMI.

00:40:42   So I have the four places just on that card

00:40:44   where I could plug in the monitor.

00:40:45   I assume all those ports are the same.

00:40:47   I hope I'd have it in the fast one.

00:40:48   Anyway, then the 580X, interestingly,

00:40:52   has no Thunderbolt ports on the card itself whatsoever.

00:40:55   Just has two HDMI.

00:40:57   And then I have the whatever three or four

00:41:00   or Thunderbolt ports that are part of the little IO card.

00:41:04   And apparently I can plug in my Pro Display XDR

00:41:10   into any of those ports as well.

00:41:12   And when I plug it into those ports,

00:41:14   the W5700X runs the monitor, right?

00:41:19   Even though I'm not plugging into the card,

00:41:23   now with both GPUs installed,

00:41:25   if I stick my monitor into any port

00:41:29   that is not directly on the 580X,

00:41:32   then the 5700X wins and gets the monitor.

00:41:37   Which is confusing to me,

00:41:38   'cause I was like, what if I want to run my 6K monitor

00:41:40   off the 580X?

00:41:41   Apparently there's no way for me to do that, period.

00:41:44   I can drive other monitors off

00:41:46   by connecting it directly with HDMI.

00:41:48   But anyway, so I'm not quite sure

00:41:52   if I'm gonna keep it in this config.

00:41:53   It's running this way now.

00:41:55   My monitor is actually connected directly to the 5700X

00:41:58   in one of its many Thunderbolt ports.

00:42:01   Seems fine.

00:42:03   Doesn't seem like it's any louder.

00:42:05   I checked the fan speed with a beta version of iStat menu

00:42:09   that shows me fan RPMs.

00:42:10   They don't seem to be any different than they were

00:42:12   when I just had one GPU in there.

00:42:14   - You are running iStat menus?

00:42:18   - I'm not running iStat menus.

00:42:20   What I do with iStat menus is I install it,

00:42:22   check the fan speed, and then I uninstall it,

00:42:24   'cause that's the only way to really turn it off.

00:42:26   - Oh my god, Jon.

00:42:27   - No, there's a giant switch in their settings thing.

00:42:30   You can turn it all off with a master switch.

00:42:32   - I don't think so.

00:42:34   I can't check 'cause I don't have it installed anymore,

00:42:36   but I'm pretty sure you can't ever actually

00:42:38   turn it off, off, off.

00:42:40   Only uninstalling does it.

00:42:41   Anyway, it's not installed anymore,

00:42:42   but I took screenshots of fan RPMs and graphs and everything

00:42:46   and maybe I'll try it differently with just one thing.

00:42:48   But I'm assuming the 580X is literally doing nothing now,

00:42:52   'cause it doesn't have any monitors connected to it.

00:42:54   It's not being asked to do anything.

00:42:55   And I'm hoping there'll be some piece of Apple software

00:42:58   video toolbox that Handbrake will use.

00:43:00   I'm hoping something somewhere will use this extra GPU

00:43:03   that I have in my computer.

00:43:03   If not, it's just sitting there

00:43:05   probably wasting electricity, so too bad.

00:43:08   So what did I do with my fancy new graphics card?

00:43:10   I booted into Windows, which was an adventure in itself,

00:43:13   because of course I boot Windows.

00:43:15   It shows the little Windows 10 logo,

00:43:17   you know, the blue teal logo that Windows 10 shows on boot.

00:43:21   Then the little teal logo disappears

00:43:22   and nothing ever appears on my screen ever again.

00:43:24   So that was great.

00:43:25   I used to think, and this used to be true,

00:43:30   that Windows has to handle all sorts

00:43:32   of weird exotic hardware.

00:43:35   So worst case, it'll just like fall back to VGA

00:43:38   or some crap, like, look, I can't make heads or tails

00:43:40   of any of your hardware.

00:43:41   I'm just gonna fall back to the safest of safe, safe modes

00:43:45   and just, you know, just show you something on the screen.

00:43:48   Windows 10, under bootcamp anyway,

00:43:50   does not behave that way.

00:43:51   I actually looked at Microsoft support articles

00:43:53   for like, hey, what do you do if you've got Windows 10

00:43:55   and you just, you turn it on and you get a black screen?

00:43:59   And there's a bunch of solutions for, you know,

00:44:01   here's how you turn on safe mode, booting, yada, yada.

00:44:03   They all require you to be able to see something on the screen

00:44:05   if you just have a black screen, their solution is,

00:44:08   it's a very scary support document.

00:44:09   It's like a, hold down the power button for 10 seconds

00:44:12   and then until your machine reboots.

00:44:15   And then as soon as you see anything on the screen,

00:44:17   hold down the power button again for 10 seconds

00:44:19   and then your machine reboots.

00:44:20   And then as soon as you see anything,

00:44:21   like it makes you like force,

00:44:23   forcibly turn the thing off like three times in a row.

00:44:26   And then supposedly a real Windows computer would be like,

00:44:28   oh, I see you need, you want to be in Windows recovery mode

00:44:31   and then you have a bunch of options.

00:44:32   But despite me doing this very abusive thing to my computer,

00:44:36   it never went into Windows recovery mode.

00:44:39   Like I was holding down the power button

00:44:41   as soon as I saw the Windows 10 logo up here.

00:44:43   All it did was make it angry.

00:44:45   It never actually put me into WinRE

00:44:47   or Windows recovery environment or the hell it is.

00:44:50   So that didn't work for me.

00:44:51   So then I had to use the good old fallback,

00:44:53   which is connect a crappier monitor

00:44:55   through a different interface.

00:44:56   So I connected my 4K monitor through HDMI,

00:44:58   lo and behold, that worked.

00:45:00   Then I downloaded AMD's new bootcamp drivers

00:45:02   for my newly installed GPU,

00:45:04   which again, I'm kind of surprised Windows

00:45:06   didn't like find for me or didn't fall back

00:45:09   to some default graphics driver.

00:45:10   Like just get me to the point where I can launch

00:45:12   a web browser and do it myself, but no, that didn't work.

00:45:14   So I installed the new drivers,

00:45:16   which is nice that AMD had on their site,

00:45:17   hey, here's the new drivers for, you know,

00:45:21   the newly released 5,700X,

00:45:25   W5700X that you have in your computer.

00:45:27   And it's specially designed for bootcamp, yada yada.

00:45:30   So that's all that problems and I can boot into Windows.

00:45:32   And why was I putting into Windows?

00:45:34   So I could play games.

00:45:35   And of course, what game do I care about?

00:45:36   I want to play Destiny.

00:45:38   I played Destiny, you know, through Steam

00:45:43   that I already had installed and everything.

00:45:46   And the answer to the question of whether it can run

00:45:49   Destiny 2 at full 6K resolution with all settings

00:45:53   on high at 60 frames per second with this card is no,

00:45:55   it cannot.

00:45:58   It is above the capabilities of this card.

00:46:00   It's okay, you get like 30ish frames per second or whatever.

00:46:04   So I was kind of sad to not be able to do that.

00:46:06   This is, you know, the best MPX module

00:46:10   that I can get for less than two grand

00:46:12   and it still can't quite hit 60 with the highest settings.

00:46:14   - Now, how does that compare?

00:46:16   Like, I don't follow the PC GPU market that well.

00:46:19   Like, suppose you had like, you know, a 2080, 1080?

00:46:22   What's the big--

00:46:23   - Yeah, that could definitely do it.

00:46:25   - Okay, so like, and so what does one of those cost?

00:46:28   Like 400 bucks?

00:46:30   - Yeah, something like that.

00:46:31   - Yeah, all right, so--

00:46:32   - Or maybe 600 if you get a fancy one, I don't know.

00:46:34   - Okay, so basically what you're saying is that this

00:46:37   thousand dollar, you know, workstationish card

00:46:39   for the Mac Pro cannot achieve gaming performance

00:46:43   that a $400 gaming card could.

00:46:45   - Yeah, although I don't think that gaming card

00:46:47   could drive the Pro Display XDR at native res, period.

00:46:49   'Cause the only interface to the Pro Display XDR

00:46:51   is Thunderbolt 3 and they don't have Thunderbolt 3 out.

00:46:53   So that's always the problem.

00:46:54   Like, that's why I'm in this situation

00:46:56   is I wanna drive this big, fancy screen.

00:46:58   So anyway, I turned it down to 4K,

00:47:00   which is perfectly fine for Destiny.

00:47:02   Like, honestly, the assets in the game

00:47:04   probably don't stand up to much more than 4K.

00:47:06   So I turned it down to 4K and then I turned

00:47:09   all the settings to max except for a few of them.

00:47:11   So it's like a hybrid of the max setting

00:47:13   and I turned to like the foliage draw distances on high

00:47:16   instead of highest or whatever.

00:47:18   And that's locked at 60 frames per second, so.

00:47:20   - Oh, that's pretty close.

00:47:22   - Yeah, it's really close.

00:47:23   So it's just like, you know what it is.

00:47:25   Like with PC games, the super duper ultra settings,

00:47:27   no one should ever run them

00:47:28   because you cannot really discern any visual distance

00:47:32   between the super ultra settings

00:47:33   and the merely high settings.

00:47:35   So I have everything on high

00:47:37   with half the settings on highest at 4K in HDR.

00:47:41   And it looks and plays great.

00:47:42   Like, especially the HDR with all the, you know,

00:47:44   Destiny's got all sorts of lighting effects for explosions

00:47:47   and space magic and all sorts of stuff like that.

00:47:50   It looks amazing.

00:47:50   Like, it's really very impressive, you know,

00:47:53   'cause I haven't really done HDR gaming before.

00:47:54   So it's very impressive, very sharp, very fast.

00:47:58   And the first Crucible match I played,

00:48:01   I ended up randomly landing on a team with Mtasht,

00:48:05   who is a semi-famous Destiny YouTuber/streamer.

00:48:10   And we both had crap games and that was exciting.

00:48:14   He only got three more kills than me and our team lost.

00:48:17   I did much worse than he did, but seriously,

00:48:19   he should be getting way more

00:48:20   than three more kills than me in a match.

00:48:23   So that's my video card stuff.

00:48:27   So far, so good.

00:48:28   I'll continue to investigate the weirdness,

00:48:32   see if I can actually get the 580X to run my screen

00:48:34   if I wanted to, because that's the other thing

00:48:35   I was thinking about.

00:48:36   It's like, well, if I'm not playing games

00:48:38   or I'm not using something GPU intensive,

00:48:41   remember the 580X doesn't have display stream compression

00:48:45   and the fancy new video card does,

00:48:48   which means that my USB ports in the back of my monitor

00:48:50   are now faster.

00:48:51   Now USB three with the new video card

00:48:53   or the USB two with the old one.

00:48:55   So, so far so good.

00:48:58   For the most part, I'm happy with it.

00:48:59   I'm still debating my options,

00:49:02   but I had some good fun in Destiny.

00:49:03   Oh, and I re-signed up to Apple Arcade

00:49:05   just so I could play through Sayonara Wild Hearts at 6K.

00:49:09   That was really nice.

00:49:11   - How is Apple Arcade?

00:49:12   Are we following that at all?

00:49:13   Like, is there anything good on there that like since launch?

00:49:15   - I've never played it.

00:49:16   - Most of the games, like if you look through the games,

00:49:18   there are no bad games.

00:49:19   The game, all the games are like, this is a good quality

00:49:22   implementation of this type of game.

00:49:24   The question is, are you into that kind of game?

00:49:26   And there's a wide variety of games.

00:49:28   They're not, you know, this is your usual like racing games

00:49:30   and platforming games.

00:49:31   There's lots of very interesting games.

00:49:33   I think that is, it's a bargain.

00:49:35   Like for $5 a month, you get access to a pretty big

00:49:39   collection of games that are mostly pretty good.

00:49:41   And remember, none of them have an app purchases

00:49:43   or anything like that.

00:49:44   I think it's a great deal, but it depends.

00:49:46   You have to know what kind of gaming lifestyle

00:49:49   you are leading.

00:49:50   I am at this point mostly in a monogamous gaming lifestyle

00:49:53   where I'm just playing Destiny.

00:49:54   (laughing)

00:49:55   You know, I'm just waiting for, you know,

00:49:57   Last of Us Part II and a few other sort of flagship

00:50:00   once every year and a half type games

00:50:02   that I will divert myself into.

00:50:04   But if that's the type of gamer you are,

00:50:07   maybe Apple Arcade doesn't make sense for you.

00:50:08   But if you graze or if you're just like,

00:50:10   ah, I'm just in the mood to see what a game is,

00:50:12   like I just did today.

00:50:13   Hey, I wanted to try some games on my new fancy GPU

00:50:18   on my Mac, where do you find Mac games?

00:50:20   Basically nowhere or Apple Arcade.

00:50:23   And I went to Apple Arcade and guess what?

00:50:24   There's a ton of Mac games 'cause Apple Arcade

00:50:27   forces these people to make their games run on the Mac.

00:50:29   And the games are all pretty good.

00:50:31   Like it is a lot like the consoles where Apple has a hand

00:50:36   in selecting and managing the games that appear

00:50:39   on the platform.

00:50:40   And I've played, you know, maybe 10, 12 Apple Arcade games,

00:50:44   you know, when I launched.

00:50:45   And today I just had the urge to play one again.

00:50:47   You know, I ended up going to Sign our Wild Hearts

00:50:49   just because I hadn't played it in ages

00:50:50   and I really loved that game.

00:50:51   Five bucks, five bucks.

00:50:53   And now it wasn't five bucks for me to play that one game.

00:50:55   I have access to the entire library

00:50:56   until the end of the month again.

00:50:57   So I think it's a good deal if you are the type of person

00:51:02   who doesn't just play one or two games all the time.

00:51:06   It seems that a lot of people in our circles

00:51:09   have been falling more into the, if not monogamous,

00:51:13   then, you know, sort of serial monogamous type of strategy

00:51:16   where it's like, oh, everyone's playing Animal Crossing

00:51:19   or, you know, the Armit family is playing Minecraft,

00:51:22   you know, or like rather than sort of dedicating a week

00:51:26   or two to one game and then a week or two to another game,

00:51:29   you know, something like that.

00:51:30   But I think it's more of a thing that you do

00:51:32   when you were a kid, 'cause you basically burn through a game

00:51:34   in a week or two or finish it.

00:51:37   Whereas now I think most adults are looking for like

00:51:41   a lifestyle game where you, if you have any gaming time,

00:51:44   you know exactly where you're gonna spend it

00:51:46   and then you have some fun and then you set it aside

00:51:47   and you come back to it.

00:51:49   - The thing that has me concerned about Apple Arcade

00:51:51   is that everyone has basically said

00:51:54   that exact same thing about it.

00:51:55   Oh yeah, the games are nice, they're, you know, good games.

00:51:58   But I'm not hearing about many specific games.

00:52:00   In fact, I haven't heard of a single specific game

00:52:03   after the launch that everyone says like,

00:52:05   oh, you gotta play this one game.

00:52:07   - Well, that's because most of the people you know

00:52:09   are playing some single game.

00:52:11   You certainly heard a lot about Animal Crossing, right?

00:52:13   Lots of people are just playing Animal Crossing.

00:52:15   They're not playing anything else, right?

00:52:17   Sayonara Wild Hearts by its nature is a short game

00:52:19   where it's not like an ongoing type of thing.

00:52:21   It just is a certain number of levels

00:52:23   and you play them and you're done with it.

00:52:24   So you heard about that at launch,

00:52:25   but now everyone has played it.

00:52:27   There are, I think a lot of the games in there are like that.

00:52:30   You can play them and finish them.

00:52:32   And once you've played them and finished them, you're done.

00:52:33   The thing that, the key value proposition for Apple Arcade

00:52:37   is you don't buy a bunch of individual games.

00:52:40   You pay $5 and get access to all of them.

00:52:42   So your value for that $5,

00:52:44   if you finish one game,

00:52:47   you've got your $5 worth for the month, right?

00:52:50   If you try 12 other games,

00:52:52   you've gotten way more than your $5 worth, right?

00:52:54   So you just have to know,

00:52:55   is that a thing that you're ever gonna do?

00:52:56   Or are you just gonna play one game?

00:52:58   I just paid $5 just to have a single play through

00:53:01   an album, whatever it's called, the album mode

00:53:04   or the mode where it just plays straight through

00:53:06   that pauses between levels.

00:53:08   That's worth $5 to me right there.

00:53:10   I pay similar amount to Rent Movies from iTunes

00:53:12   and play them for the same amount

00:53:13   and watch it for the same amount of time.

00:53:14   I just play this.

00:53:16   I just gotta remember to cancel

00:53:17   'cause I'm probably not gonna play any of those games

00:53:18   'cause I'm too busy playing Destiny.

00:53:20   (laughing)

00:53:21   - I will say we finally started watching

00:53:24   the morning show on Apple TV+.

00:53:26   This is the first Apple TV+ show that I've actually watched.

00:53:30   And it's pretty good, I'm actually enjoying it.

00:53:33   - You should try For All Mankind after that.

00:53:35   - Yep, agreed.

00:53:35   - Yeah, that's probably next on the list.

00:53:37   Yeah, here I am coming very late to everything.

00:53:40   Yeah, I finally watched Apple TV+.

00:53:43   And yeah, it's not bad.

00:53:44   - I just started watching Defending Jacob,

00:53:47   which is notable because it is shot,

00:53:50   ostensibly shot in and around where I live.

00:53:54   And it's fun to watch as a resident to say,

00:53:56   that's not, I don't know where they're actually shooting it,

00:53:58   but like, that's not where I live.

00:54:00   Lots of fake signs, lots of made up names.

00:54:03   It's kind of a depressing show about murder

00:54:06   and school aged children or anyway.

00:54:08   So maybe not your cup of tea,

00:54:10   but I started watching that just for the hometown aspect

00:54:13   of it and because I remember when a bunch of roads around me

00:54:15   were closed down for filming.

00:54:17   I had heard that the stars of the show,

00:54:20   the star of the show is Chris Evans and Kerry Russell,

00:54:24   maybe, anyway.

00:54:25   Captain America, yeah, I had heard that he wasn't going

00:54:28   to be here, so don't bother coming to the set

00:54:30   'cause Chris Evans isn't gonna be here.

00:54:32   They're just shooting some other scenes or whatever,

00:54:33   which is either it's a lie or they composited him in

00:54:37   because I saw some scenes shot and like,

00:54:38   I know where that is and there's Chris Evans standing there.

00:54:41   I could have gone by and waved to him, but I didn't.

00:54:43   That was a while ago, but again,

00:54:45   it could have been green screen.

00:54:46   It's really hard for me to tell.

00:54:46   I could have Todd look at it and tell me,

00:54:48   is Chris Evans actually there?

00:54:49   They just put him in.

00:54:51   - Yeah, I thought Morning Show was good.

00:54:55   I thought For All Mankind was even better.

00:54:57   And those are the only two I've tried,

00:54:59   but I enjoyed them both.

00:55:00   - I watched See, which is a little bit silly,

00:55:02   but I feel like that kind of thing, it's fine.

00:55:05   - Let's keep ourselves in MacPro Corner.

00:55:07   Do you want to tell me about your wheels and feet

00:55:09   and heights and angles and things?

00:55:11   - Yeah, this strategy of putting wheels on the front

00:55:14   and feet on the back or vice versa,

00:55:16   so that you have something that you can wheel,

00:55:18   but that doesn't go anywhere until you pick up

00:55:19   the feety part.

00:55:21   Jeremy Cox did some measurements based on stuff

00:55:24   on the product pages.

00:55:26   And apparently the wheels are about an inch taller

00:55:28   than the feet.

00:55:29   So if you were to do that,

00:55:31   you'd have roughly a four degree slope,

00:55:32   but more importantly, it would look and feel awful

00:55:34   because the feet on the MacPro were totally flat.

00:55:37   So they'd be on an angle just touching at the edge.

00:55:39   So yeah, you'd have to make an adjustment.

00:55:42   You need basically one inch heels on your feet

00:55:44   to get a level MacPro.

00:55:47   - Yeah, I love the illustration that they provided too.

00:55:49   We'll have to make that the chapter art or something.

00:55:51   It's really cool to see like,

00:55:52   oh yeah, that would be way too much,

00:55:54   like way too big of a slope.

00:55:56   - Indeed, all right, so we have some feedback

00:55:58   about the iPad Magic Keyboard.

00:56:01   Matt Berkler writes that they just tried it out again,

00:56:04   was actually impressed how hard they could bang

00:56:06   on the space bar and provided a video.

00:56:09   And apparently this thing is like very precariously perched

00:56:14   with only the iPad portion on a table

00:56:19   and the entire keyboard is dangling in thin air,

00:56:22   but because of physics and counter levers and whatnot,

00:56:26   it's somehow, and I guess all the weight is in the back,

00:56:28   so it's somehow staying afloat.

00:56:29   But this, oh, this is stressing me out just watching this.

00:56:32   - Yes, but I think the video, you know, be impressed,

00:56:35   like wow, how stable.

00:56:36   What all this is doing is emphasizing exactly

00:56:38   how lopsided the weight distribution of this thing is.

00:56:40   Like it is so heavily back weighted again,

00:56:43   which is why they can't tilt the thing back any farther.

00:56:46   All of the weight starts basically where the keyboard ends.

00:56:50   And that's why you can get away

00:56:51   with what's shown in this video.

00:56:52   You should definitely watch it to realize

00:56:53   exactly how, you know, back weighted it is.

00:56:56   It's not tippy, it's not gonna tip over backwards,

00:57:00   but all of the weight is on that end,

00:57:02   which is, you know, don't try this with your laptop

00:57:04   because you will have very different results

00:57:06   and be very sad very quickly.

00:57:08   And yeah, so this is, it was not clear.

00:57:10   This is not the weight distribution

00:57:11   that you want for a laptop.

00:57:13   You would rather have the weight low and flat to the ground,

00:57:16   like in a car or like in Marco's car.

00:57:18   A big, all the big heavy batteries is at the bottom,

00:57:22   low and wide, right?

00:57:24   You don't, if Marco's battery was on the roof of his car,

00:57:27   it would be like this keyboard stand.

00:57:29   - All right, John Not-Sercuso writes in that alternators,

00:57:33   guess what, they do generate alternating current.

00:57:36   They're used in cars because they're smaller

00:57:37   and more efficient, thank you to Tesla,

00:57:39   as in Nikola Tesla, and a simple rectifier circuit

00:57:42   converts AC to DC for the battery, et cetera.

00:57:44   A DC generator would be larger, heavier,

00:57:46   and less efficient to lower PMs.

00:57:47   And then Craig Weber also adds a generator

00:57:51   produces DC directly through what's effectively

00:57:53   a mechanical bridge rectifier, but less efficiently.

00:57:56   - Yeah, so cars, all the stuff inside your car

00:57:59   is running on DC, but your alternator's making AC briefly

00:58:02   before it's converted.

00:58:03   - Indeed, and then King T. Bird writes,

00:58:06   always ground to the alternator bracket

00:58:08   or a similar point on the engine

00:58:09   as that will bypass the battery,

00:58:10   this is in the context of jumping in a car,

00:58:12   to the same ground the starter uses.

00:58:14   Trust me, it makes a huge difference

00:58:15   in the current delivered without passing

00:58:17   through a dead battery, especially a shot battery.

00:58:19   - Yeah, I hadn't thought about like

00:58:20   if your battery's totally fried.

00:58:21   Obviously mine wasn't totally fried.

00:58:22   I was able to start it by going through the battery.

00:58:24   But again, today I actually replaced the battery.

00:58:27   I looked for, I still didn't go to the point

00:58:30   where I looked in the owner's manual.

00:58:31   I was looking for that part.

00:58:32   But while I had the engine bay open,

00:58:33   I was like, is there some post

00:58:35   where it wants me to ground in here?

00:58:36   Is there something?

00:58:38   I could see a couple of nuts that, in theory,

00:58:40   could be used for it, but nothing labeled

00:58:42   as like a grounding spot.

00:58:44   And practically speaking, my two little clampy thingies,

00:58:48   if the positive one is on the positive,

00:58:50   the negative one doesn't reach very far.

00:58:52   It's not like I can go across to the other corner

00:58:54   of the engine and find something to clamp onto.

00:58:55   So if there's some post for me to put it,

00:58:58   I still couldn't find it.

00:58:59   Oh, and by the way, when I did the replacing my battery

00:59:01   today, this is the first time I've ever successfully done

00:59:04   this thing that I always think about doing.

00:59:06   I don't even know if this is true of modern cars,

00:59:07   but I used to be annoyed with my older cars

00:59:10   that when I replaced the battery,

00:59:12   the car would forget all its settings,

00:59:14   'cause there's no V-RAM, essentially.

00:59:16   And all your radio presets would be gone,

00:59:18   and all your preferences and settings,

00:59:19   and everything would just be gone.

00:59:20   And it annoyed me, 'cause I'm like,

00:59:21   I don't remember when I set this thing up

00:59:23   six years ago, right?

00:59:25   So this time I said, I'm not gonna let that happen.

00:59:26   I don't know for a fact whether my car has NVRAM.

00:59:29   I'm hoping it does, 'cause it's more modern,

00:59:31   but I don't wanna take the risk.

00:59:32   So I very carefully used my battery charger

00:59:35   and clamped it onto the little thingies

00:59:36   and then disconnected them from the battery,

00:59:38   keeping current flowing through the car

00:59:41   while I swapped out the battery.

00:59:43   Then I put in the new battery and very carefully

00:59:44   put the little things over and screwed them on

00:59:46   and then disconnected it.

00:59:47   And as far as I can tell, everything worked

00:59:49   and I didn't lose any info and I have a shiny new battery.

00:59:53   Oh, and speaking of my battery,

00:59:55   I came with a little round sticker on it

00:59:57   that says 3/20 on the top.

00:59:59   And I don't know what that is supposed to be.

01:00:02   It's probably March 2020, right?

01:00:06   Maybe it's a sticker that says like,

01:00:07   that's when this battery was manufactured or something.

01:00:10   I don't know what the purpose of the sticker

01:00:12   is supposed to be.

01:00:13   But the reason I noticed the sticker at all

01:00:15   is because it was like a reddish sticker,

01:00:17   but there was a little crescent moon of a green sticker

01:00:19   poking out from underneath it.

01:00:21   So I peeled off the red sticker

01:00:23   and underneath the red sticker was a green sticker

01:00:25   that said 1/20.

01:00:27   So I just put the 3/20 sticker next to it.

01:00:32   So now my battery has two stickers on it.

01:00:34   At least the thing underneath didn't say like 4/17.

01:00:39   So pretty sure my battery's fine.

01:00:42   Car starts right up, battery's fully charged.

01:00:44   Everything's great.

01:00:45   Go team.

01:00:48   - All right, we didn't get a chance to talk

01:00:49   about this last week,

01:00:50   but Apple has released a contact tracing,

01:00:52   I mean, exposure notification in, what is this?

01:00:55   iOS 13 five, something like that, whatever came out today.

01:00:59   - 13.5.

01:01:01   - And so there's some stuff in settings

01:01:03   that will allow you to turn on or off

01:01:06   COVID-19 exposure notifications.

01:01:08   And that is the thing where the iPhone will,

01:01:12   in the background,

01:01:13   it will communicate via Bluetooth low energy

01:01:15   and kind of, if I understand things right,

01:01:16   kind of say I'm here and I am code 1234

01:01:20   and I'm oversimplifying here.

01:01:21   And then it will listen to other phones saying I'm here

01:01:23   and I'm code 5678.

01:01:25   And it will keep a kind of database or tally

01:01:29   of who it's seen for a certain duration of time

01:01:32   so that if a central health authority finds out

01:01:35   that oh, 5678 has coronavirus,

01:01:39   you can look up all the people

01:01:41   who have been tested positive

01:01:43   and compare who you've seen with who is tested positive

01:01:47   and say, oh, I was around them at some point,

01:01:49   I should probably self-isolate, quarantine,

01:01:52   and then maybe even get tested.

01:01:54   This, at a glance, seems pretty solid.

01:01:58   I'm pleased with what I've seen.

01:02:00   To be fair, I haven't looked into this deeply.

01:02:02   It seems like in order to write an app

01:02:04   that leverages this API, you need a certain,

01:02:06   not certification, what's the word I'm looking for?

01:02:09   - Entitlement. - Entitlement.

01:02:10   Thank you, yep.

01:02:11   You need a certain entitlement,

01:02:12   which presumably Apple will not be giving out willy-nilly.

01:02:15   But I don't know, at a glance, this looks pretty good.

01:02:18   Marco, thoughts about this?

01:02:20   - Yeah, I mean, contact tracing or exposure notification

01:02:25   is a pretty important part of controlling a pandemic

01:02:28   and dealing with it, and so the need for this is very high.

01:02:32   The fact that Apple and Google work together

01:02:35   to develop a standard that both Google-powered

01:02:39   Android phones and all of the iPhones

01:02:42   could both use and talk to each other is really remarkable.

01:02:46   And so just that alone, the fact that they work together

01:02:49   pretty quickly and develop this thing

01:02:51   that they could both swallow and are willing to do

01:02:53   for all the people out there who have either platform,

01:02:57   that's really impressive.

01:02:58   And if you look at the actual design of the system,

01:03:02   obviously you would think, all right,

01:03:03   well, if the phones are gonna be passively

01:03:06   trading identifiers with each other all the time,

01:03:08   and then they'll keep some kind of history

01:03:10   of what other identifiers they've seen,

01:03:12   and then they'll be able to notify,

01:03:14   oh, I've seen identifiers 10, 15, and 20,

01:03:17   so notify them 'cause I now have the virus,

01:03:19   they need to know that they were exposed to me,

01:03:22   you would think this would be a privacy nightmare.

01:03:25   But the way they've designed the system

01:03:26   is both simple and pretty clever

01:03:29   to basically use a bunch of short-lived random tokens,

01:03:33   and they're all stored locally on device,

01:03:36   there's no real persistence, no persistent identifiers,

01:03:41   no real tracking possible beyond a 15-minute window

01:03:45   of any one particular identifier.

01:03:48   So it's actually, if you look at the system,

01:03:50   I can't see any problems with the system as designed,

01:03:54   at least any big problems,

01:03:55   any kind of massive privacy violation

01:03:58   or creepy tracking potential.

01:04:01   They've done a really good job.

01:04:04   I suspect, oftentimes what happens with standard bodies

01:04:07   or tech standards is Apple basically designs the whole thing

01:04:12   and then hands it to the other party and is like,

01:04:16   this is now our standard.

01:04:17   (laughs)

01:04:18   That happens a lot, from what I hear,

01:04:21   and things like USB-C.

01:04:22   So apparently, Apple frequently does stuff like that,

01:04:27   and it wouldn't surprise me if that's what happened here,

01:04:30   'cause this is a very Appley kind of system,

01:04:34   and I can't imagine Google coming up with the system

01:04:37   if they were at the drawing board.

01:04:40   So ultimately, it looks very good.

01:04:43   It isn't out to the public yet.

01:04:46   There are a bunch of complicated questions of things like,

01:04:50   should it be enabled by default?

01:04:52   Like, should your phone be broadcasting

01:04:53   these identifiers by default?

01:04:56   And there's certainly a slight privacy angle to that,

01:05:00   but I think the system is so well designed

01:05:04   that I would argue that yes, it should be on by default,

01:05:07   because the privacy implication is so tiny,

01:05:10   like the scope of potential privacy risk

01:05:13   is so small and so minor,

01:05:15   and if it's not on by default for everyone,

01:05:19   it's far less effective.

01:05:21   You might as well not even do it if it isn't on by default.

01:05:24   So I'm hoping they end up with that.

01:05:27   I think that is the plan right now.

01:05:29   Maybe there'll be some kind of one of those

01:05:30   setup wizard screens when you first boot up 13.5

01:05:34   that it might ask you and just be defaulted to yes,

01:05:38   but hopefully it is totally up and up

01:05:42   and on by default and everything else,

01:05:47   and hopefully the same applies

01:05:48   to the Android platform as well.

01:05:50   There is certainly the question of like,

01:05:52   how the heck Android phones are getting

01:05:54   a large-scale software update

01:05:55   in any kind of reasonable amount of time.

01:05:57   I assume, I don't know anything about this,

01:05:59   but I assume that this is part

01:06:01   of the Google Play services thing,

01:06:02   where Google kind of has this library of stuff

01:06:05   they can update on a much more frequent basis

01:06:08   compared to the actual OS of all these phones

01:06:10   that never get updated, so it's most likely there.

01:06:13   So yeah, hopefully this is,

01:06:16   hopefully this system can get deployed soon

01:06:18   and enabled by default on a lot of different phones,

01:06:21   because that would really be quite effective

01:06:24   at achieving this.

01:06:26   There's all sorts of problems

01:06:27   that they have clearly considered or been made aware of

01:06:30   and addressed in some way, like for instance,

01:06:33   you wouldn't want to be able to just spam everybody

01:06:36   by saying like, "I got the virus, I got the virus,"

01:06:37   even if you didn't, and be able to spam all the people

01:06:40   who were near you for the last week or whatever

01:06:44   and scare them all or have them all go

01:06:47   to get tested unnecessarily or whatever.

01:06:49   So they've thought about stuff like,

01:06:50   okay, only public health authorities will be able to notify

01:06:54   or to be able to submit the thing that says,

01:06:56   this person has it for sure, stuff like that.

01:06:59   So there's all sorts of concerns

01:07:00   that they've been seemingly addressing pretty well.

01:07:04   Some countries, there was this whole drama

01:07:05   with certain countries, I think France was one of them,

01:07:09   where they didn't want this kind of approach

01:07:11   that was totally passive.

01:07:13   They wanted only an app that the user would be launching

01:07:16   and keeping in the foreground and keeping their phone on

01:07:19   with the screen on all the time for it to work,

01:07:22   and it's like, no, that's not going to do anything.

01:07:25   That's a no-go.

01:07:27   So, although most of those countries seem

01:07:30   to be coming around that this is actually

01:07:32   the better way to do it.

01:07:33   So anyway, from what I can see so far,

01:07:35   it looks really good.

01:07:37   If you want to hear more detail about how it works

01:07:39   or read more detail about how it works,

01:07:40   there's a good article on NS Hipster

01:07:41   about basically the whole API, what it does,

01:07:44   how it works, why it's important,

01:07:46   why it's pretty safe privacy-wise.

01:07:49   So we'll link to that from the show notes.

01:07:50   And otherwise, I think it's a great thing

01:07:52   that they're doing.

01:07:53   I hope it gets deployed widely and quickly.

01:07:57   - Like a lot of the, when we talk about security

01:08:00   in other non-virus-related contexts,

01:08:02   where we're talking about the classic trade-off

01:08:04   between convenience and security,

01:08:06   lots of stuff that has to do with security is inconvenient.

01:08:09   You just want to get to the thing.

01:08:10   You don't want to have to say, okay,

01:08:12   to a bunch of permission dialogue boxes.

01:08:13   You don't have to enter a bunch of passwords.

01:08:15   You don't want your password to have to be long

01:08:17   and complicated.

01:08:18   Basically, security and convenience are opposing forces,

01:08:21   and you have to trade one for the other.

01:08:23   And that's a difficult trade-off

01:08:24   because we all just want convenience.

01:08:26   We also want the security, but day to day,

01:08:28   we just want the convenience.

01:08:29   For the virus stuff,

01:08:31   that same trade-off still exists.

01:08:35   Margo was just talking about having to leave an app turned on

01:08:37   and everything like that,

01:08:38   which would be quote-unquote more secure

01:08:40   'cause you'd be aware that you're doing it,

01:08:41   but it's ridiculously inconvenient.

01:08:43   But the real trade-off here is efficacy versus security.

01:08:47   The more this system respects your privacy,

01:08:52   the less effective it is.

01:08:53   So you can imagine a system that totally violated

01:08:57   your privacy, that would be way more effective.

01:08:59   To give just one example, nowhere in this scheme

01:09:02   that Apple has come up with is location information

01:09:04   used anywhere, period.

01:09:06   Like the random identifiers that are sprayed out,

01:09:08   they're just random identifiers.

01:09:10   Nobody knows where anybody is.

01:09:11   There is no location information recorded

01:09:14   or exchanged whatsoever.

01:09:15   All it knows is that you saw this other device

01:09:19   that sprayed this number out.

01:09:21   Doesn't know where you are when you saw it.

01:09:22   I don't even know if it knows the time of day

01:09:24   when you saw it.

01:09:24   It's just merely like exposure.

01:09:27   Have you been exposed?

01:09:29   Did you get this number sprayed at you from this number,

01:09:32   this so-and-so forth?

01:09:33   The fact that it's voluntary

01:09:37   and that you have to go through this whole big procedure

01:09:39   to submit the fact, to assert this,

01:09:42   I've got it, I've been diagnosed, they tested me,

01:09:45   I'm positive.

01:09:46   The process of doing that, A, it's voluntary.

01:09:49   You don't have to do it if you don't want to

01:09:51   because again, that's better for privacy, right?

01:09:53   If it was involuntary and if you tested positive,

01:09:57   you had no choice and they would submit your thing,

01:09:59   worse for privacy, better for effectiveness

01:10:02   because at this point someone would be like,

01:10:03   oh, I don't wanna submit that, right?

01:10:06   And then you have to go through some process

01:10:07   which you have to know about and the doctor has to know about

01:10:09   and you have to come together and do all that stuff.

01:10:12   If instead, this is one of the things

01:10:14   the other country was talking about,

01:10:15   let's say that it sprayed out your location

01:10:19   and a bunch of identifiers and times of days

01:10:21   and it was all collected into one global server somewhere

01:10:24   so that some central authority or government

01:10:27   had tracking information in real time

01:10:29   of every single person and where they are 24 hours a day,

01:10:32   seven days a week and what other things

01:10:34   are in the vicinity and it connected up involuntarily

01:10:37   to all their private health information

01:10:38   so as soon as someone tested positive,

01:10:40   no participation needed, we would just connect all the dots

01:10:43   and find all the people.

01:10:44   That would be way more effective and a privacy nightmare.

01:10:48   So we're used to, we're talking about,

01:10:50   oh, convenience, privacy, trade-off

01:10:52   and you can have debates about it or whatever.

01:10:53   This is a whole different ballgame

01:10:55   because it's a similar set of trade-offs

01:10:57   but on the other side is like public health, right?

01:11:01   Your inconvenience, no matter how inconvenienced you are,

01:11:04   you probably don't die.

01:11:05   Some of you know it probably doesn't die

01:11:08   which is part of the reason these countries

01:11:11   with I think better governments,

01:11:14   with citizenry that has more faith in its government

01:11:17   were pushing the system.

01:11:18   I said, well, why won't you just let us

01:11:20   report all this information centrally

01:11:22   to the government automatically?

01:11:24   Because that's the purpose of government

01:11:25   to do a thing that individuals can't do.

01:11:28   The collective, as elected by the people,

01:11:32   responsibility is to serve the public good

01:11:37   and it is entrusted to serve the public good

01:11:40   through the system of government that we have, right?

01:11:42   So why wouldn't we wanna collect it?

01:11:44   And Apple and Google are like, no,

01:11:46   we're not going to do that.

01:11:48   Our system is completely anonymous.

01:11:50   You can't track people, there's no location

01:11:51   and there's no central authority or whatever.

01:11:55   It's on-device information.

01:11:56   All those privacy-preserving things make it less effective

01:12:03   but protects against what we know would happen

01:12:06   in the United States which is that some giant corporation

01:12:08   would eventually get this information

01:12:09   or they would leak out of the government

01:12:10   or would end up on a bunch of servers

01:12:12   and on the dark web or whatever.

01:12:14   Inevitably, it would get out.

01:12:17   We can't even keep our credit information secure.

01:12:19   There is no way to have that valuable pile of information

01:12:23   in the United States and not have it get out to bad actors,

01:12:26   let alone before you consider whether the government itself

01:12:29   is a bad actor and stuff like that.

01:12:30   So Apple and Google are doing what they can

01:12:35   within the parameters that present themselves.

01:12:37   And the final bit is that this isn't even out yet.

01:12:41   We're talking about the iOS 13.5 beta,

01:12:43   13.5 presumably will be out in the next week or two.

01:12:46   But there is a question of by the time this actually gets

01:12:49   out and by the time actually people upload their phones,

01:12:52   how much value can it deliver?

01:12:55   And how much is that value necessarily constrained

01:12:57   by the dire environment in the United States

01:13:02   and in general across the world?

01:13:04   Do you have to sort of code for the worst-case scenario

01:13:07   and say we have to be very aggressive

01:13:10   at protecting your privacy even though we know

01:13:12   it will make this effort less effective than it could be?

01:13:15   And I think they've probably made the right trade-off

01:13:18   'cause it is not an ideological trade-off.

01:13:21   It is the trade-offs they've made recognized

01:13:24   the realities of the world.

01:13:27   But I feel bad for the countries that are essentially

01:13:29   doing better than us and have more faith in their government

01:13:31   because we can't afford to have a system like this

01:13:36   that works well in the best of cases

01:13:39   but is a disaster in the worst of cases

01:13:41   because so many places in the world,

01:13:43   including the US, are the worst of cases.

01:13:46   - Yay.

01:13:47   - I mean, assuming if it's not on by default,

01:13:50   are you two gonna turn it on?

01:13:52   - Oh, totally.

01:13:53   - I mean, I don't see any downside to it personally.

01:13:55   Like, more data is good.

01:13:57   I don't particularly wanna, like,

01:14:00   I don't wanna know if I've been potentially infected,

01:14:02   but I really wanna know if I've been potentially infected.

01:14:05   So yeah, I would absolutely turn it on.

01:14:07   I am not currently in a position

01:14:11   where I think it's worth running the beta,

01:14:13   especially since it doesn't appear

01:14:14   that there's any, like, health organizations

01:14:16   that have released an app for it as far as I know.

01:14:18   But no, I definitely will turn it on

01:14:22   once the opportunity arises, when 13.5 is out for real.

01:14:25   - The other thing about this is

01:14:26   whenever there's any technology involved in health,

01:14:29   there's the danger of the magic thinking of technology,

01:14:31   especially people who aren't into technology.

01:14:33   I think it's whatever that's saying.

01:14:34   Like, if you're actually a programmer,

01:14:36   you know that all software is horrible,

01:14:37   but if you're not, you might think it's magic.

01:14:39   - So part of what this system has to do

01:14:42   is decide what counts as exposure, right?

01:14:44   It's not just, oh, I received a communication

01:14:47   via Bluetooth of this identifier,

01:14:49   because that could happen

01:14:50   when you drive by somebody in a car, right?

01:14:52   You probably didn't get it from them.

01:14:53   There is, they have to decide

01:14:54   how long do you have to be within proximity

01:14:58   of this thing to count as an exposure,

01:15:00   because practically speaking, again,

01:15:01   if you walk past each other on opposite sides of the street,

01:15:05   on opposite sidewalks,

01:15:06   you're probably not gonna get affected mostly.

01:15:09   From what we know of the transmissibility,

01:15:10   you're probably okay on opposite sides of the street.

01:15:12   But if you hang out in an elevator for half an hour,

01:15:15   you're probably gonna get it, right?

01:15:16   So somewhere between there,

01:15:17   this system has to decide what counts as exposure.

01:15:21   But because it's technology, they're gonna be like,

01:15:23   oh, well, I got an exposure notification.

01:15:25   That means I was exposed.

01:15:26   Well, maybe.

01:15:27   Or maybe they were a little bit conservative

01:15:32   with the exposure,

01:15:32   and really, they made it like a two-second gap,

01:15:34   and really, you walked past someone at a 12-foot distance

01:15:37   and were within range for them for two seconds

01:15:39   and counted as an exposure.

01:15:41   Or if you don't get a notification,

01:15:42   you're like, yay, I wasn't exposed.

01:15:43   Maybe, or maybe they said it

01:15:45   so you had to be in close proximity

01:15:47   for somebody for five minutes,

01:15:48   and you were in proximity for four minutes and 30 seconds,

01:15:50   and you got it, but you didn't get the notification.

01:15:52   So keep in mind that even when working as designed,

01:15:56   this isn't necessarily an imperfect system.

01:15:58   All we're trying to do is help.

01:16:00   This is better than not having the system,

01:16:02   but it is not, like anything else we're gonna hear,

01:16:05   a complete solution to the problem

01:16:07   if you get notified of this.

01:16:08   It doesn't mean you're sure you have it.

01:16:09   If you don't get notified,

01:16:10   it doesn't mean you're sure you're not.

01:16:11   It just adds more information than you had before.

01:16:13   - I would also say, for all of you listeners out there,

01:16:16   this is a thing where the question of whether you enable it

01:16:20   shouldn't even be a question.

01:16:21   Yes, enable it.

01:16:22   If you actually look at what it does and how it works,

01:16:28   it's a no-brainer.

01:16:30   There should be no controversy about it.

01:16:31   There should be no real concern about what it's doing,

01:16:36   and it will only work if everybody enables it.

01:16:38   So just enable it.

01:16:41   Research, if you're concerned,

01:16:42   research what it actually does, and you'll see.

01:16:45   You'll see it as I have by looking into the actual protocol,

01:16:48   what it's actually doing, that it's fine.

01:16:52   This is one of those cases like vaccines

01:16:53   where the only people who are gonna be afraid of it

01:16:56   and not do it are people who have less information,

01:16:59   willfully or not.

01:17:00   If you actually look at what it's doing, it's a no-brainer.

01:17:05   Yeah, and of course it's software.

01:17:07   There can be bugs and so on and so forth,

01:17:08   but in the grand scheme of things,

01:17:10   your phone company already has so much more information

01:17:13   about you than you can ever possibly imagine.

01:17:15   Just, yeah, enable this.

01:17:18   It's a no-brainer.

01:17:19   If you're listening to this thing,

01:17:20   they'll listen to, get advice from people

01:17:22   who know stuff about technology,

01:17:24   or were telling you, because of what I just mentioned,

01:17:27   how incredibly limited this is

01:17:30   and how preserving it is of your privacy,

01:17:33   that's the reason why you should just do it by default.

01:17:35   It's a no-brainer.

01:17:36   - Also in 13.5, there are group FaceTime

01:17:40   and Face ID improvements.

01:17:41   I haven't had the time to look into this myself,

01:17:42   but my limited understanding is you can,

01:17:45   or I guess when it detects that you're wearing a mask,

01:17:48   it will not wait near as long trying to figure out

01:17:52   whether or not this is your face,

01:17:53   and it will just immediately show you a password prompt.

01:17:56   Did I get that right?

01:17:57   - It'll scan your face.

01:17:58   Like it's still doing the face scanning,

01:18:00   but rather than just saying,

01:18:02   I'm trying to recognize his face,

01:18:03   I'm trying to recognize his face,

01:18:05   it will take a break if it doesn't immediately

01:18:08   recognize your face and say, okay,

01:18:09   I didn't recognize the face,

01:18:10   but does this look like a face that's wearing a mask?

01:18:13   And I'm not sure how it does that.

01:18:14   It could do it with a depth sensor,

01:18:16   looking for like basically a person

01:18:17   without a nose and a mouth,

01:18:19   or it could do it with the camera,

01:18:20   looking for a big region that doesn't look like a face,

01:18:22   or who knows, could it be some machine learning?

01:18:24   Well, anyway, there's some magic that basically says,

01:18:27   if I don't recognize a face,

01:18:28   the next thing I'm gonna do is try to recognize a mask.

01:18:31   And if I recognize a mask,

01:18:33   then I'm gonna fall back to passcode.

01:18:35   Rather than keep trying to recognize the face,

01:18:36   which is a smart thing to do,

01:18:38   and some fast work from Apple.

01:18:40   - Yeah, in the Face ID training thing,

01:18:42   when you're registering your face with it,

01:18:44   it has a thing, if you tried to do the second appearance

01:18:48   as one with a mask, which I've tried and many people have,

01:18:51   it doesn't work for most people it seems,

01:18:52   certainly didn't work for me,

01:18:54   but what it does is if you're wearing a mask

01:18:56   or a half-folded-over mask,

01:18:58   or whatever trick people tell you might work,

01:19:00   the Face ID registration thing says,

01:19:03   your face is obstructed.

01:19:05   It actually has that as a status

01:19:06   it can detect and show you.

01:19:08   It's probably using that exact same logic,

01:19:10   to see, does this look like a face,

01:19:14   but one that is obstructed?

01:19:15   Yes, then immediately fail and go to the passcode screen.

01:19:18   Which, Face ID is the way all modern iPhones authenticate,

01:19:23   with the exception of the very, very old/new SE

01:19:27   and previous models, but I wouldn't call those

01:19:30   modern iPhones, all the modern iPhones use Face ID

01:19:33   as their only biometric authentication method.

01:19:35   This is not gonna be a great long-term solution,

01:19:39   and we're gonna be wearing masks for a while.

01:19:42   You know, some countries are gonna keep wearing them

01:19:44   as they have been for, you know, lots of conditions,

01:19:47   if not all the time.

01:19:49   Some professions require their workers to wear masks

01:19:52   all day every day, or much of the day,

01:19:54   and I don't think the mask thing is gonna go away

01:19:57   in the next few months.

01:19:59   So I think this is a good stopgap

01:20:01   to make the current situation a little less crappy.

01:20:04   But this is only a temporary solution, I think.

01:20:07   So it's great Apple's buying some time.

01:20:10   I hope the real solution ends up being either

01:20:13   a new line of phones that has Touch ID and Face ID somehow,

01:20:16   and will let you have some kind of setting that says,

01:20:19   like, all right, whichever way you recognize me first,

01:20:21   just trust that and go, and/or have a setting on Face ID

01:20:25   that makes it less secure, that basically doesn't check

01:20:27   for your mouth, and just, all right, recognize me

01:20:30   by my eyes and my forehead, and yeah,

01:20:33   that's less data points, and it's gonna be less secure,

01:20:36   but I'll take that trade-off.

01:20:38   Because right now, the alternative is, like,

01:20:41   I've been using an alphanumeric passcode forever,

01:20:44   and I just had to switch to a number passcode

01:20:47   this past couple of weeks, because every time

01:20:48   I have to go shopping with a mask on and everything,

01:20:51   I can't use my phone very easily,

01:20:53   and typing in a alphanumeric passcode sucks

01:20:56   when you're wearing gloves, potentially,

01:20:57   and it's certainly inconvenient to have to do that

01:21:00   every time you're checking your shopping list

01:21:01   in the grocery store.

01:21:02   Ideally, Apple has to find some way

01:21:05   to make their biometric authentication on the iPhone

01:21:08   work when people are wearing face masks.

01:21:10   That is the only good long-term solution here.

01:21:12   So whether it's re-adding Touch ID

01:21:14   and having it be simultaneous recognition,

01:21:16   or whether it's giving an option to have Face ID

01:21:20   have probably less security, but have it operate

01:21:23   with a mask on, that's the real long-term solution here,

01:21:25   and we don't have that yet, but I hope they're working on it.

01:21:28   - The lead times on getting a Touch ID back into the phone

01:21:31   are too long for them to do it as a reaction to the virus,

01:21:34   'cause it either been in their roadmap for years,

01:21:37   or it hasn't been.

01:21:38   We're all hoping that for years,

01:21:40   that they were gonna bring it back as under screen,

01:21:42   and I've always been saying under screen,

01:21:44   either whole or half screen Touch ID,

01:21:46   where you don't even have to have your finger

01:21:48   in a specific spot, but there was no rush for it

01:21:51   when we were talking about that, where it's like,

01:21:52   oh, that would be a cool thing to have,

01:21:53   in the meantime, Face ID is fine,

01:21:54   but now, there's a little bit more urgency,

01:21:56   but the reason they haven't been doing that is,

01:21:59   one, cost, and two, my understanding is

01:22:01   that the under screen ones are still not as good

01:22:03   as the dedicated one that Apple has on the SE,

01:22:07   in terms of how secure it is, how many points it's gonna

01:22:10   pick up, how easy it is to read your finger, yada yada.

01:22:12   So maybe three or four years from now, Touch ID will,

01:22:17   if they start now, three or four years from now,

01:22:19   Touch ID could make its triumphant return

01:22:21   underneath our screens of our iPhone 27s,

01:22:23   or whatever the hell.

01:22:25   - Yeah, I guess 11 plus three or four is not 27,

01:22:30   but do your own math.

01:22:31   You know, with Apple's naming, you know what,

01:22:32   I take it back.

01:22:33   There's no reason to pick something 27

01:22:36   with Apple's naming screen.

01:22:37   But yeah, in the meantime, other solutions,

01:22:39   like Margo suggested, are much easier to do quickly.

01:22:43   Weakening Face ID by only doing your eyeballs

01:22:45   or your forehead may be a little bit too weak.

01:22:47   The one that has sprung to mind immediately to me,

01:22:49   and it would help Apple sell more stuff,

01:22:50   is have better link to unlock with your Apple Watch,

01:22:54   kind of like they do with Mac OS, right?

01:22:57   'Cause the watch doesn't suffer with this,

01:22:58   'cause it's always touching your screen,

01:22:59   so it can be used as a proxy key to say,

01:23:01   as long as you don't take your watch off,

01:23:03   and as long as your watch is unlocked,

01:23:04   if you pick up your phone and try to open it

01:23:05   and it's close by your watch,

01:23:07   then your phone will unlock automatically too.

01:23:09   Given how well that works or doesn't on the Mac,

01:23:12   maybe they need to work on that feature a little bit,

01:23:15   but I would think that that would be more secure

01:23:18   than eyeball Face ID.

01:23:20   I suppose they could do retina scans,

01:23:21   but again, that's another five to 10 year timeline

01:23:24   for them to come up with that amazing technology.

01:23:26   - Additionally, the group FaceTime in 13.5 Beta,

01:23:30   you can optionally turn off the enlarging

01:23:33   of whoever's speaking.

01:23:35   Now, I'm familiar with this in principle,

01:23:37   but I have not experienced this myself,

01:23:39   and to be honest, almost any group call I've been on

01:23:40   has been Zoom, not FaceTime,

01:23:43   but my understanding is,

01:23:44   especially once you get three or four people involved

01:23:46   with a single FaceTime call,

01:23:48   is that this gets real annoying real fast.

01:23:50   So now there's a switch.

01:23:51   This is where you can disable the

01:23:52   enlarge the face of the speaker feature.

01:23:54   - Yeah, I mean, this is true.

01:23:56   On Zoom calls as well,

01:23:58   Zoom has this wonderful option called Grid View,

01:24:00   and I'm not a video chat expert.

01:24:03   I don't know how many other platforms have this,

01:24:04   but the idea of, if you have a conference call

01:24:07   or video call with more than a handful of people,

01:24:10   normally what these platforms would try to do

01:24:13   is may have one big rectangle for the primary person

01:24:18   and then a bunch of smaller rectangles for everyone else,

01:24:20   and then basically detect and switch

01:24:22   whoever was talking the loudest at any given time,

01:24:25   they would be shown as the big primary square,

01:24:27   and then when somebody else was talking,

01:24:28   it would switch to them,

01:24:30   and turns out this is kind of annoying a lot of the times,

01:24:32   and having just a basic grid view

01:24:34   where everyone is the same size,

01:24:36   and just no matter what, when people are talking,

01:24:39   the arrangement stays stable,

01:24:41   that is a lot better in a lot of conditions,

01:24:45   and so this is basically saying that

01:24:48   that will now become a possibility

01:24:50   for the FaceTime video chat, I think, right?

01:24:52   Am I interpreting this correctly,

01:24:53   that that's what this means?

01:24:55   - I don't know if that's,

01:24:57   I think we're all correct on the thing

01:24:59   they're reacting against,

01:24:59   which is the current implementation, which I have used,

01:25:01   and the current implementation is trying to be

01:25:04   an app-less version of what Margot just described

01:25:06   as the default for Zoom or lots of other things,

01:25:08   where the whole screen gets taken by whoever's talking,

01:25:11   and then there's a smaller version of other people.

01:25:14   That's what Face ID does now,

01:25:15   except for instead of having it be big and everything else,

01:25:19   it gradually moves between those phases,

01:25:22   so it's just a bunch of floating boxes,

01:25:23   and as you start to be the dominant talker,

01:25:25   your box gets bigger and bigger,

01:25:27   but never quite as big as full screen,

01:25:29   but then if someone else goes,

01:25:30   you get smaller and that other box gets bigger,

01:25:32   so it's trying to be a smooth, dynamic version

01:25:35   of the very binary, you either get the whole screen

01:25:37   or you're one of the background bit players, right?

01:25:40   What I don't know is there, all right,

01:25:42   so is the fix, what is the fix for that?

01:25:44   Is the fix for that just a grid?

01:25:45   Maybe, I haven't seen any screenshots to know whether it is.

01:25:48   The fix for that could also be just a bunch

01:25:51   of little floating boxes, but they don't get any bigger,

01:25:54   but I think a much more Apple-ish solution to this,

01:25:57   and one that actually would be used by people

01:26:01   who find themselves in the situation.

01:26:02   I know 'cause I've done lots of family group FaceTimes.

01:26:05   You just, direct manipulation, right?

01:26:07   People know what they want to see at any given moment.

01:26:10   Now, it's annoying to have to manipulate it manually,

01:26:13   but for example, very often someone is showing something.

01:26:16   Look, some kid is holding up a picture they drew.

01:26:18   That's what you want to see, but at the same time,

01:26:21   someone else is talking saying, oh, that's so nice.

01:26:23   When did you draw that?

01:26:24   What is that supposed to be?

01:26:25   Or what, you know, like, the one talking

01:26:28   is not the one you want to see, so you need the person

01:26:30   who's using the interface to be able to say,

01:26:32   I know what I want to see.

01:26:33   I want to see the picture and have them do

01:26:35   what everybody knows how to do with their phone,

01:26:37   which is pinch to zoom.

01:26:38   Just grab the picture, grab the thing you want to see,

01:26:40   make it come to the front, pinch to zoom,

01:26:42   chuck it into the corner, like, direct manipulation,

01:26:45   and to go along with the direct manipulation,

01:26:47   you need to turn off the sort of, you know,

01:26:50   non-direct manipulation, the sort of,

01:26:53   I didn't touch anything, but things are moving around

01:26:55   and changing anyway, right?

01:26:57   So if you just start with a grid view

01:26:58   and let people sort of zoom and shrink as needed,

01:27:01   I think that'll cover basically every use case

01:27:03   without having any sort of machine learning,

01:27:05   artificial intelligence, noise canceling, whatever, whatever.

01:27:08   And it's better than grid view, because in grid view,

01:27:10   the more people you get, the smaller everybody becomes.

01:27:13   So if you get 12 people on a call

01:27:15   and you want to see little Susie's picture that she drew,

01:27:17   it's too damn small.

01:27:19   And then if your only option is zoom Susie to full screen

01:27:22   or make Susie a thumbnail,

01:27:23   then you're back to the zoom thing, which is, you know,

01:27:26   it's passable, you can choose what you want

01:27:28   to be full screen, or you can be one of the little tiny ones,

01:27:31   but sometimes you want something that's kind of in between.

01:27:33   So I really hope Apple just lets us directly manipulate

01:27:36   those little floating people.

01:27:39   And then, you know, if there's any auto manipulation

01:27:41   at all, have it to be very gentle and have some way

01:27:44   to sort of reset back to a reasonable grid type mode.

01:27:48   But yeah, I don't like the floating and the zooming

01:27:50   and the changing.

01:27:51   I find it very annoying.

01:27:52   I find it hard to keep track of things

01:27:54   and people keep moving around and yeah, I'm not a fan.

01:27:58   And the other thing that I'm not a fan of

01:27:59   is trying to set up a group FaceTime call.

01:28:02   Even if everybody in your family has Apple devices,

01:28:05   it's way more of a pain than it needs to be

01:28:07   due to like the way of Apple's various

01:28:10   messaging applications in general are not good

01:28:14   about letting you sort of select how you want

01:28:17   to contact somebody.

01:28:19   Like we have, you know, contact entries

01:28:21   in our address book or whatever,

01:28:22   and everybody has five email addresses,

01:28:25   and one of them is an Apple ID,

01:28:26   but this person's Apple ID is also their hot mail address,

01:28:30   but this person's Apple ID is their Gmail address,

01:28:32   but this person has a Gmail address,

01:28:34   but that's not their Apple ID.

01:28:35   And like, you know, when you want to contact somebody

01:28:38   in the FaceTime app, very often you have to like

01:28:41   be very careful to say, okay,

01:28:43   when you bring this person in,

01:28:45   don't use their Gmail address,

01:28:46   but this person used their hotmail address,

01:28:48   but don't use their phone number for this person

01:28:50   because they're not on their phone device,

01:28:52   they're on their iPad, and the phone number isn't,

01:28:53   it's just like, oh my God, figure it out.

01:28:56   Like I'm in FaceTime and I want to do a FaceTime.

01:29:00   Like whatever it's going to take to do a FaceTime, do that.

01:29:04   And I just want to pick the contact.

01:29:06   I don't want to have to know which person

01:29:07   I should pick a phone number for

01:29:08   and which person I should pick an email for

01:29:10   and which person I should pick their Apple ID for.

01:29:13   And very often what will happen is you'll do it

01:29:14   and like, oh, that my phone is ringing,

01:29:16   but it's not on my iPad, but I don't want it to be my phone.

01:29:18   Can you send it to my iPad?

01:29:20   It's just setting up the call is half the challenge.

01:29:24   It's easier to set up a Microsoft Teams meeting

01:29:26   for crying a lot because it works.

01:29:28   Everybody who says one work email,

01:29:30   it's the works domain that,

01:29:31   and there's no question about who you're connecting to,

01:29:34   but with home people, with all the different things,

01:29:36   it's annoying.

01:29:37   It's the same thing you used to complain about in messages

01:29:39   where messages would be split up

01:29:40   and I wanted them to be grouped by person,

01:29:42   but then you're like, well, where'd,

01:29:43   they all have that preference.

01:29:44   Like where do you want your message to first come from?

01:29:46   Do you want it to come from your phone number?

01:29:48   Do you want it to come from your Apple ID?

01:29:49   Do you want your Mac to listen on your phone number,

01:29:51   but you're going to do that when your phone is in proximity?

01:29:53   It's too confusing.

01:29:54   Like too many of the implementation details are exposed,

01:29:57   implementation details that we don't care about.

01:29:59   So in a context where Apple has a fighting chance

01:30:02   of knowing what we want, you've launched the FaceTime app

01:30:05   and you're trying to do a FaceTime,

01:30:07   just figure out which way in the giant contact entry

01:30:11   for this person will result in a successful FaceTime

01:30:14   and do that.

01:30:15   I don't know.

01:30:17   I know it's a difficult problem.

01:30:18   I just, it's frustrating.

01:30:20   And then once you get on there,

01:30:21   their heads are all changed in sizes and floating all around.

01:30:24   (laughing)

01:30:26   - Oh, the struggle is real.

01:30:28   And speaking of struggles,

01:30:30   Google's perhaps struggling with chips right now

01:30:33   because there's a rumor in Axios

01:30:35   that Google is readying its own chips

01:30:37   for future pixels in Chromebooks.

01:30:39   So this is following the Apple playbook

01:30:40   as Google's off to do.

01:30:42   And they're supposedly working with Samsung

01:30:45   to make their own CPUs.

01:30:47   - I can't believe it's taken this long.

01:30:48   I mean, we've been saying for years and years and years

01:30:51   that Apple has the best chips in their phones.

01:30:53   They're the most powerful, they use the least power.

01:30:57   Like they're just, everything about them is amazing.

01:31:00   And it's not by a little bit.

01:31:01   It's not like, oh, they're one or 2% better.

01:31:03   They're hugely better than the competitors' phone chips.

01:31:07   You would think the competitors

01:31:08   would feel some kind of pressure to say,

01:31:10   we need to match this.

01:31:11   But instead, just for years and years,

01:31:12   they've been willing to outsource it

01:31:13   to having Qualcomm make their system-mounted chips for them.

01:31:16   And the Qualcomm system-mounted chips have taken more power

01:31:19   and not been as fast.

01:31:21   Like the one thing Qualcomm has been doing for them

01:31:23   is letting the non-Apple phones have like little spec wars.

01:31:26   Like look how many cores we have

01:31:27   and all sorts of other things that sound good on paper.

01:31:29   But in practice, their CPUs use more battery

01:31:33   and are slower than Apple's.

01:31:34   So like what the hell's the point of having umpteen cores

01:31:36   if the end result is a slower phone

01:31:37   that takes more power to run?

01:31:41   So finally, it seems like,

01:31:43   I think this is the first rumor I've seen,

01:31:44   the first sort of substantial rumor I've seen

01:31:46   of Google saying, you know what,

01:31:47   we should just make our own chips

01:31:49   because Qualcomm sucks and they're not doing the job

01:31:52   and we can do what Apple does

01:31:54   and make a chip that's just purpose-built for our phones.

01:31:57   Because Google has all sorts of interesting

01:31:59   machine learning ideas

01:32:00   and they're building their own hardware.

01:32:02   As we talked to Chris Latner about this,

01:32:04   all their TPUs and the other kind of hardware

01:32:07   they built for the digital centers for machine learning.

01:32:09   That's exactly what Apple does in their phones.

01:32:11   They put that neural engine in there

01:32:12   designed to help speed up the things

01:32:14   that they know they wanna do.

01:32:15   When Apple rolls out FaceTime,

01:32:16   they have hardware that's going to help them

01:32:18   do FaceTime better.

01:32:19   When Apple does portrait mode,

01:32:20   they have hardware in their image processor

01:32:22   that helps them do that, right?

01:32:24   It's a big win to do that

01:32:25   and Google is the other big player in the phone industry

01:32:28   so they should totally make their own chips.

01:32:29   So we'll see how they do.

01:32:31   I don't know, I'm not actually that hopeful about it

01:32:34   because Google's experience so far with hardware

01:32:38   has been mostly middling.

01:32:41   The Pixel phones recently have been pretty good

01:32:44   in camera stuff, kind of a mixed bag and other stuff.

01:32:49   Their heart is not in it, clearly.

01:32:50   They don't really prioritize hardware.

01:32:53   They're never gonna be very good at it.

01:32:55   Maybe they can do a passable job,

01:32:58   but they clearly are not that into it.

01:33:01   In the same way that Apple isn't into so much other stuff

01:33:03   that they do a passable job of.

01:33:05   Like we were talking about earlier, iCloud Drive.

01:33:08   Apple is not a great company for that kind of service,

01:33:11   for that kind of product.

01:33:13   They're gonna consistently do kind of a half-assed job.

01:33:16   Things like iWork document sharing,

01:33:19   collaborative document editing,

01:33:21   in any kind of competition for Google Apps,

01:33:24   Apple's heart is not in that.

01:33:25   They do a pretty poor job of that most of the time.

01:33:27   They have some kind of passable solution

01:33:29   but it's nothing compared to the company

01:33:31   that cares more about it, which in this case is Google.

01:33:33   So going back to this topic, Apple cares a whole lot

01:33:37   about making really, really good hardware,

01:33:39   especially really good mobile phone

01:33:41   and mobile computer hardware and chips and everything.

01:33:44   They do a really good job of that.

01:33:46   Google doesn't wanna do that.

01:33:48   They're doing it because they're being competitively forced.

01:33:50   The same way Apple's being competitively forced

01:33:52   to have iWork collaboration features.

01:33:54   Apple doesn't wanna do any of that.

01:33:56   They're doing it kind of reluctantly

01:33:58   and that's how this feels.

01:34:00   It feels like Google is doing this,

01:34:02   whatever this chip move is, reluctantly

01:34:04   because they don't really have any other choice

01:34:06   competitively for this really important market

01:34:09   but I don't think they're gonna do great things.

01:34:12   - I think you might be underselling the Google Pixel phones

01:34:14   from everything I've understood,

01:34:17   their cameras are at least as good as iPhone cameras,

01:34:20   if not better in certain cases, for stills.

01:34:22   For video from everything I've gathered,

01:34:24   the iPhone is still leaps and bounds ahead.

01:34:27   - That's because of software though.

01:34:28   Not hardware.

01:34:30   Google is really good at taking a pedestrian camera sensor

01:34:34   and getting really good output out of it

01:34:36   just using software enhancements.

01:34:39   That's not really a hardware thing.

01:34:42   - My very limited understanding is that the Pixel phones

01:34:44   are legitimately good phones and arguably,

01:34:48   up until very recently, the only good Android phones

01:34:50   and I think recently that's not the case.

01:34:52   But for a while there, certainly when I was still

01:34:57   traditionally employed, all of our Android team

01:35:00   would swear by the Pixel phones and say

01:35:02   they're the ones that are great

01:35:03   and everything else is kind of garbage

01:35:05   and now I think that that's changed a bit.

01:35:07   But yeah, I think that the Pixel phones,

01:35:10   certainly a couple of years ago, were very, very good

01:35:13   and arguably as good as iPhones,

01:35:16   if not in certain cases, better.

01:35:17   I mean, I think a lot of people prefer

01:35:18   the still cameras on the Pixel phones.

01:35:20   And whether that's software or hardware,

01:35:21   I mean, it's still ultimately the experience

01:35:23   of these cameras some people thought were better

01:35:26   and I haven't tried an Android phone in a long, long time.

01:35:29   But I wouldn't say that their hardware is mediocre

01:35:34   or just bargain, well not even bargain basement,

01:35:37   but it's not just run of the mill stuff

01:35:39   you can grab on a store shelf, so to speak.

01:35:42   Some of it is very good, from what I've gathered.

01:35:45   - Well, what Google's heart is not in is building phones.

01:35:47   Forget about system-mounted chips.

01:35:49   Their heart is not in building phones

01:35:50   for a variety of reasons.

01:35:51   Potentially it's like, well, if they wanted

01:35:53   to be a platform vendor, kind of like the Microsoft thing,

01:35:55   why didn't Microsoft make PCs for a long time?

01:35:57   It's like, well, PC makers would be mad

01:35:59   as if we made a PC.

01:36:00   Microsoft got over that eventually,

01:36:02   but still, Microsoft's volumes are low.

01:36:04   So yeah, Google gives you Android

01:36:06   for all your billions of Android phones to them.

01:36:09   And hey, we also make phones, but don't worry,

01:36:10   we don't sell too many of them Samsung,

01:36:12   so it's not a big deal, right?

01:36:14   And why is that the case?

01:36:16   Maybe because they don't want to anger their vendors,

01:36:19   especially in the beginning, they wanted to get traction

01:36:20   and not say they were competing with them.

01:36:22   But maybe also, Google just doesn't have

01:36:25   the expertise in manufacturing.

01:36:27   For a while, they outsourced the construction

01:36:28   of their Pixel phones.

01:36:29   I don't know if they still outsource all of it,

01:36:31   and not just to Foxconn like Apple does,

01:36:33   but Apple is intimately involved

01:36:35   with the manufacturing process of all its products,

01:36:37   including its phones, with lots of Apple employees

01:36:40   and technology and everything going

01:36:41   into the manufacturing process.

01:36:43   Google, my impression, is way less involved

01:36:46   than Apple in the manufacturing of its phones.

01:36:47   So if it ever wants to be high volume, high quality,

01:36:52   it would have to dedicate itself

01:36:54   to the manufacturing of the phone.

01:36:55   So I'm not sure if they want to do that,

01:36:57   or if they're going to do that.

01:36:59   But the system on a chip is different.

01:37:01   Google is totally into building silicon chip hardware

01:37:06   that has synergy with what it wants to do with software.

01:37:09   Again, those TPU things with the machine learning.

01:37:12   Like Apple's not designing, well, maybe they are,

01:37:14   we don't know about it, but as far as we know,

01:37:16   Apple's not custom designing its own hardware

01:37:18   for the data center down to the CPU.

01:37:21   Google is doing that purpose-built hardware

01:37:23   just for its machine learning stuff.

01:37:26   Because that has synergy with the software stuff

01:37:27   that it's doing, and it's not a consumer product,

01:37:29   so you can build it all in.

01:37:30   So there is a potential that Apple,

01:37:33   not Apple, that Google could say,

01:37:35   "Hey, if we build our own system on a chip through our phones

01:37:37   we can make something that fits our needs exactly."

01:37:41   And we could continue to be, you know,

01:37:44   not super into manufacturing phones

01:37:46   and continue to sell only a small number

01:37:48   of these Pixel phones to discerning people

01:37:49   who want a phone that has the trade-offs

01:37:51   that the Pixel phones have.

01:37:52   But it'll be good for us because we can build

01:37:54   into these system-mounted chips these certain features

01:37:56   that help other Google features.

01:37:58   Potentially they could sell the system-mounted chip

01:38:00   to other Android vendors, or the other route they could go,

01:38:02   and this is what I was thinking

01:38:03   with Google making its own system-mounted chip,

01:38:05   is rather than making a powerhouse competitor

01:38:08   to the top line A-series chip that Apple makes,

01:38:11   instead make a pretty okay chip

01:38:16   that is able to run Android and Google stuff

01:38:20   very efficiently, with very little power consumption,

01:38:23   and with very low cost, to allow the creation

01:38:26   of a Google phone that is way cheaper

01:38:28   than any iPhone could be, slower than an iPhone.

01:38:31   Like, kind of like, imagine something that is, you know,

01:38:34   I can't say it's like the iPhone SE,

01:38:36   'cause the iPhone SE has the best chip in the market in it,

01:38:39   which is a weird thing, but you know.

01:38:41   Like, a phone that is acceptably good,

01:38:44   but way undercut to anything that Apple could ever put out.

01:38:47   And it's difficult to do that because

01:38:49   in the Android market, if you get like a cheaper Qualcomm chip

01:38:51   it's so dog-slow, if you don't get the top of the line one,

01:38:54   it's so dog-slow, and it's probably not great with power,

01:38:56   and that's, you know, it's, I can imagine Google

01:39:00   making a different set of trade-offs than Apple makes,

01:39:02   like having dedicated processors with a few important things

01:39:05   that make the Google phone impressive,

01:39:06   but otherwise giving a middle-of-the-road chip

01:39:08   that uses very little power and has good enough performance

01:39:12   to allow it to sell Pixel phones at a way lower price,

01:39:14   and that could make it so that Apple,

01:39:16   and so they, keep saying Apple, so that Google could

01:39:19   distribute across the world way more phones than they do now

01:39:23   that we would look at and say, yeah, it's an okay phone,

01:39:26   but suddenly Google becomes a volume distributor

01:39:28   because they're able to sell this phone

01:39:29   and undercut everybody else.

01:39:31   And they still outsource all the manufacturing,

01:39:33   and if you look at it, you're not super impressed

01:39:35   by the industrial design, and the camera's fine,

01:39:37   and you know, the software on it's good.

01:39:38   Like, these are things that Google can't do

01:39:42   because they're stuck using systematic chips made

01:39:44   by other people who have, other companies that are,

01:39:47   A, not as good as Apple at it, and B,

01:39:48   make trade-offs that are not the same trade-offs

01:39:50   that Google would make if it was designing its own phone.

01:39:52   So, when I envision a Google system on a chip or a phone,

01:39:56   I keep thinking of a good enough cheap phone

01:40:00   for way less money, rather than a flagship,

01:40:04   Apple-destroying phone, but who knows?

01:40:06   You know, in this phone market, I've always kind of

01:40:09   been baffled by the way Google does things

01:40:11   from their decisions about the trade-off

01:40:14   between being the platform owner and also selling

01:40:15   your own phones right down to exactly how long

01:40:18   they've gone dealing with third-party chips

01:40:21   that are obviously massively inferior

01:40:22   to what Apple's putting out, and just sort of like,

01:40:25   not doing anything about it.

01:40:26   So, now it sounds like they're doing something about it,

01:40:27   so we just gotta sit back and see how they do.

01:40:29   - And speaking of building your own chips,

01:40:31   this flew by in a big way a week or two ago,

01:40:35   but the ARM Mac is coming, or so we're told.

01:40:40   Mark Erman says, what'd he say, 2021?

01:40:42   Apple's gonna start shipping.

01:40:45   Three of its own Mac processors based on the A14

01:40:48   and the next iPhone.

01:40:50   The first of these will be much faster

01:40:51   than the processors in the iPhone.

01:40:54   Apple's preparing to release at least one Mac

01:40:56   with its own chip next year in 2021.

01:40:57   The initiative to develop multiple chips,

01:40:59   code-named Kalamata, suggests the company will transition

01:41:02   more of its Mac lineup away from the current supplier, Intel.

01:41:06   TSMC is going to be building new Mac chips at five nanometers.

01:41:11   The first Mac processors will have

01:41:12   eight high-performance cores, code-named Firestorm,

01:41:15   and at least four energy-efficient cores

01:41:17   known internally as IceStorm.

01:41:18   Very good, very good code names.

01:41:20   I very much approve of them.

01:41:22   Apple is exploring Mac processors with more than 12 cores,

01:41:25   four further in the future.

01:41:26   In some Macs, Apple's designs will double or quadruple

01:41:29   the number of cores that Intel provides.

01:41:32   The current entry-level MacBook Air has two cores,

01:41:34   for example, and the Kalamata project

01:41:36   has been going on for several years, surprise, surprise.

01:41:38   In 2018, Apple developed a Mac chip

01:41:40   based on the iPad Pro's A12X processor for internal testing.

01:41:44   That gave the company's engineers confidence

01:41:45   they could begin replacing Intel Macs as early as 2020.

01:41:48   Like with the iPhone, Apple's Mac processors

01:41:50   will include several components, including the CPU and GPU.

01:41:54   On the one side, this is very exciting,

01:41:56   very interesting, and very cool.

01:41:57   On the other side, I'll believe it when it happens.

01:42:00   - Well, we've been talking about this for ages,

01:42:02   but there are a few more details in here.

01:42:03   We've got a code name, Kalamata.

01:42:05   That's good, so now we can talk about this effort

01:42:07   if that code name is real in some way,

01:42:11   rather than just saying Apple's ARM transition.

01:42:14   We got core counts, and I think the core counts

01:42:16   are surprising.

01:42:18   You would expect that there would be more cores than Intel,

01:42:21   just because if we look at how many cores

01:42:22   are in our phones today, it would be a surprising number

01:42:26   for a fanless Mac that fits in your hand, right?

01:42:29   Again, with the MacBook Air having only two cores,

01:42:31   and our phones have, what do they have?

01:42:32   They have the two high-performance one

01:42:34   and the four slow ones.

01:42:35   I forget what the current phone has.

01:42:37   - Yeah, I know what you're saying.

01:42:38   I don't know what you're saying.

01:42:39   - I think it's four and four now.

01:42:39   I don't know, it depends on the model,

01:42:41   but yeah, I think we have a lot of cores now.

01:42:43   - For a Mac application, I'm saying eight high-performance

01:42:46   and at least four energy-efficient cores.

01:42:48   Like, the core counts are going to be very high,

01:42:51   and the whole thing that they did at one base on A12,

01:42:55   Xn gave them confidence that they could replace Intel.

01:42:58   Like, that didn't give them confidence.

01:43:00   They knew they could, like, the benchmark numbers

01:43:02   for the A12 that they got three years ago

01:43:04   when they totally developed, like,

01:43:06   we all have confidence.

01:43:07   We all know they'll do fine, right?

01:43:09   'Cause we keep comparing our iPad

01:43:12   and our phone processors against MacBook Pros,

01:43:14   and these fanless handheld things

01:43:17   with, you know, seven-hour battery life

01:43:20   are destroying the Macs in single core,

01:43:22   and being competitive in multi-core,

01:43:24   and the only reason losing multi-core

01:43:25   is that maybe they don't have so many cores.

01:43:26   If you doubled or tripled the number of cores,

01:43:28   these will be amazing processors.

01:43:30   So I'm, you know, I'm very excited about these chips.

01:43:34   Also, I think the other interesting part

01:43:36   is the fact that they're gonna have integrated GPU.

01:43:38   Now, for a laptop application, you would say that's a given,

01:43:41   right, 'cause you want a system on a chip type of thing.

01:43:43   You want all the energy savings of having it all in one.

01:43:45   You don't want discrete GPU.

01:43:47   There is a question of how beefy a GPU can you fit

01:43:53   in a system on a chip?

01:43:54   At what point do you have to go to a discrete GPU,

01:43:58   and would Apple consider making a discrete GPU,

01:44:00   or would they just continue to ship AMD discrete GPUs

01:44:03   in that scenario?

01:44:04   To get an idea of how beefy a GPU can you fit

01:44:08   in a system on a chip, look at the next generation consoles.

01:44:11   Look at the Xbox One and the PlayStation 5.

01:44:14   They both have essentially system on a chips

01:44:16   that have AMD CPUs and AMD GPUs, all in one big thing.

01:44:21   And those GPUs that are in there are pretty darn good,

01:44:25   right, it's just one big honking chip,

01:44:27   but those GPUs are not embarrassing.

01:44:30   Arguably, they may be better than my stupid $1,000

01:44:33   video card that I just installed.

01:44:34   I haven't looked at the actual benchmarks,

01:44:35   but it's pretty impressive.

01:44:37   Now, granted, those are big or whatever,

01:44:39   but when we're talking about, hey,

01:44:40   what kind of ARM system on a chip can you put in an iMac?

01:44:43   Could you make an iMac Pro without a discrete GPU?

01:44:48   I think it's plausible, especially if it's a GPU custom

01:44:53   tailored to whatever Apple thinks people are going to be

01:44:56   doing with an iMac Pro, like Final Cut Pro stuff

01:44:58   or whatever, and not necessarily tailored

01:45:00   to gaming performance or something like that.

01:45:04   For the laptops, it makes much more sense,

01:45:05   but for the desktops, I'm still curious.

01:45:07   So this just has hints of like, well,

01:45:09   they could make even higher core counts.

01:45:12   How many cores could they fit in the power budget

01:45:15   of my giant 2019 Mac Pro with these huge fans, right?

01:45:19   With no fans, you can do an iPad Pro.

01:45:22   If you have three gigantic fans plus a blower

01:45:26   in this huge case, how many cores could you fit in there?

01:45:29   That you've got the 28 core Intel thing now

01:45:33   that costs a hoejillion dollars.

01:45:35   I'm pretty sure that you could do like a 64 core ARM CPU

01:45:39   for a similar price and power budget.

01:45:41   And not that Apple's probably gonna make something that big,

01:45:44   but boy, that would be a hell of a machine.

01:45:46   So I continue to be very excited about Apple's efforts

01:45:49   in this area, and I'm glad to see that the rumors

01:45:54   are for 12 core things with eight high performance core

01:45:58   and four energy fit in cores.

01:45:59   And I'm also excited that, this again,

01:46:01   makes sense if you think about it,

01:46:02   but it's nice to get some kind of information,

01:46:03   they're gonna use low power cores.

01:46:05   Like you think, oh, on the phone they have to do that

01:46:06   'cause you know, it's a handheld device and yada yada.

01:46:08   But it makes perfect sense to do it in laptops as well.

01:46:12   You know, Apple's main Mac they sell is laptop

01:46:15   because this will make it, so Marco doesn't have to run

01:46:18   his little turbo disabling thing.

01:46:19   It will just run the energy efficient cores

01:46:21   almost all the time and reduce power consumption

01:46:23   and heat and fan noise and the whole nine yards.

01:46:26   And only even turn on the high performance cores

01:46:29   when it's called upon to do something big.

01:46:30   So, boy, this first line of ARM laptops

01:46:35   is going to be a hell of a thing, I predict.

01:46:38   - I really am looking forward to this.

01:46:40   - Same.

01:46:41   - Like, I was so happy to see this report

01:46:42   because we've been expecting ARM Macs are probably

01:46:46   somewhere near the near term for a while now.

01:46:51   I believe we did some kind of bet on the show

01:46:53   about when we would see the first ARM Mac.

01:46:56   And I believe I said possibly this year.

01:46:59   So, if this report is true, I'm a little early,

01:47:01   but not by much, I'm just so excited about this

01:47:04   because everything John said, I think we're gonna have

01:47:08   a significant improvement in performance per watt.

01:47:12   And that's always one of the most exciting metrics

01:47:15   and advances that we can make in computing.

01:47:17   Making large advances in performance per watt

01:47:20   enables new form factors or makes existing form factors

01:47:23   way better, it enables things like the Apple Watch,

01:47:26   which normally to get that kind of performance

01:47:29   would require something larger than what can fit

01:47:31   in your wrist until fairly recently in computing history

01:47:34   and now we can do that, right?

01:47:36   Phones are amazing, iPads are amazing,

01:47:38   all with these extremely low power chips

01:47:41   that can run on these very tiny batteries

01:47:43   for many hours at a time while also powering

01:47:45   these giant bright screens and cell radios

01:47:47   and GPS antennas and stuff like that.

01:47:48   So, we've made some incredible progress in that area

01:47:51   and whenever there's new progress to be made,

01:47:53   it's a big deal.

01:47:55   The laptop area has been lagging behind the iPad area

01:47:59   pretty badly in this department.

01:48:01   There is a lot that the big beefy Intel architecture

01:48:05   is gonna be better at for the foreseeable future.

01:48:09   Stuff like, I don't think we're gonna see a Mac Pro

01:48:12   that has a bunch of expansion slots

01:48:14   that can run various PC and Mac hybrid hardware cards

01:48:19   that's gonna run on ARM CPU.

01:48:20   I think anything that's gonna involve

01:48:24   Thunderbolt high performance bandwidth,

01:48:26   you know, external stuff or any kind of

01:48:29   pro hardware integration, things like, you know,

01:48:31   cards and Thunderbolt devices,

01:48:35   that's probably gonna stay Intel only

01:48:38   for the foreseeable future, if not forever.

01:48:41   Or at least until those technologies are not used anymore.

01:48:44   But most Apple computers are laptops.

01:48:48   Most laptops don't need Thunderbolt 3 for anything

01:48:54   and most people never have a single Thunderbolt peripheral.

01:48:56   So most of the time, most people using most Apple computers,

01:49:02   most Macs rather, would be totally fine

01:49:05   to be served by this.

01:49:07   So even if they kept like the iMac Intel

01:49:09   and the Mac Pro Intel, they could still have

01:49:11   really awesome laptops using ARM

01:49:14   and that would still be a wonderful thing.

01:49:16   The GPU issue, I'm actually very excited about

01:49:18   because again, look at most Apple computers sold,

01:49:22   we know about two thirds of them are laptops

01:49:24   and I don't think we know the model breakdown

01:49:27   among the laptops but I think it's pretty safe

01:49:29   to assume that most laptops sold

01:49:32   are not the 15 or 16 inch class.

01:49:34   And if you can assume that, then literally

01:49:37   all other models don't have discrete GPUs.

01:49:39   Everything else besides the 15 to 16 inch

01:49:41   is using integrated GPUs.

01:49:43   So to have something really good with awesome,

01:49:47   you know, awesome integrated GPU performance

01:49:50   and power and size paired with an amazing CPU

01:49:54   that is this new architecture that, you know,

01:49:56   very power efficient and everything, that's awesome.

01:49:59   That covers the vast majority of Apple's computer needs.

01:50:02   That's gonna be great and I will be the first person

01:50:06   to buy that ARM laptop.

01:50:08   - I don't know, I could use a new one.

01:50:10   - Yeah, so the Screed GPU use case,

01:50:12   like even though it's a tiny corner of the market,

01:50:14   it is a corner of the market that Apple

01:50:16   just recently entered with a big splash

01:50:17   and presumably wants to continue to be a contender in.

01:50:20   They're selling Mac Pros where you can get

01:50:22   four discrete GPUs.

01:50:24   Is it four?

01:50:25   Maybe can you do eight?

01:50:26   I forget how many you can put inside this thing.

01:50:27   You can put a lot of discrete GPUs

01:50:28   and they've made it a point of saying,

01:50:30   and look, we have, if you're using some specific

01:50:32   Apple software, we will use all those GPUs.

01:50:35   So if Apple wants to stay in that market

01:50:39   and if Apple actually wants to transition

01:50:40   that market to ARM anytime soon,

01:50:42   they need to have a solution.

01:50:43   They have the solution, could it be just keep using AMD?

01:50:45   Like that's fine, it's perfectly good solution.

01:50:47   Like their GPUs are great.

01:50:48   Maybe Apple doesn't want to deal with that,

01:50:50   but for, like Marco was saying,

01:50:52   for every other use case, like there is no problem

01:50:54   building a system on a chip with a good enough GPU

01:50:57   for even the highest end MacBook Pro.

01:51:00   Like that'll be fine, right?

01:51:02   And plus all those machines all have eGPU support

01:51:04   if you really, really need some beefy box outside.

01:51:08   And as for bets, I did a search

01:51:10   and I don't know what bet Marco was talking about.

01:51:13   The only one I could find, this is a reminder.

01:51:15   Well, it'll come up in my calendar again

01:51:17   so we won't forget, but Wednesday, July 1st,

01:51:22   Marco contended sometime in our past

01:51:26   that the vast majority of models Apple sells

01:51:28   will have scissor keyboards.

01:51:29   I think he's gonna win that bet.

01:51:31   I think he already has one.

01:51:32   - I think I did win that bet, didn't I?

01:51:34   - I don't think anyone was betting against him.

01:51:35   I think it was just a prediction, not really a bet.

01:51:37   But anyway, July 1st we will revisit and confirm.

01:51:39   Who knows, maybe they'll go back

01:51:40   to butterfly across the board.

01:51:42   - Unless the 13 inch MacBook Pro sells way better

01:51:45   than we think it does, I think I've already won.

01:51:48   But even then, I think rumor-wise,

01:51:51   I'm pretty sure even that is said

01:51:52   to switch over any minute now.

01:51:55   - I don't know, I'm excited.

01:51:56   I really, really hope that this is a thing.

01:51:58   And maybe it'll be terrible for all I know.

01:52:00   Maybe I won't be able to run anything on it.

01:52:02   Maybe it'll be an absolutely dreadful experience.

01:52:05   But sitting here now where the future is infinite,

01:52:09   it does sound amazing.

01:52:10   And I don't have any particular angst against Intel,

01:52:14   but it certainly seems like Apple is just killing it

01:52:18   in the A-series CPUs for mobile stuff.

01:52:20   So, stands to reason.

01:52:23   They may be able to do an okay processor for a computer.

01:52:26   And I would love to see the output of that team.

01:52:30   - All right, thanks to our sponsor this week, ExpressVPN.

01:52:32   And we will talk to you next week.

01:52:35   (upbeat music)

01:52:37   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

01:52:40   ♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

01:52:42   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:52:45   ♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪

01:52:48   ♪ John didn't do any research ♪

01:52:50   ♪ Marco and Casey wouldn't let him ♪

01:52:53   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:52:55   ♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪

01:52:58   ♪ And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm ♪

01:53:03   ♪ And if you're into Twitter ♪

01:53:06   ♪ You can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S-O-N ♪

01:53:12   ♪ I-S-S, so that's Casey Liss ♪

01:53:14   ♪ M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M ♪

01:53:17   ♪ N-T-Marco Armin ♪

01:53:19   ♪ S-I-R-A-C ♪

01:53:22   ♪ U-S-A-C-R-A-Q-S-A ♪

01:53:24   ♪ It's accidental ♪

01:53:26   ♪ It's accidental ♪

01:53:28   ♪ They didn't mean to ♪

01:53:30   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:53:31   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:53:33   ♪ Tech podcast ♪

01:53:35   ♪ So long ♪

01:53:37   - So I was talking about the fans in my Mac Pro

01:53:40   and using iStat menus, and during the show,

01:53:43   I realized I had a question about the fan thing.

01:53:47   I was looking at my screenshots.

01:53:48   In the iStat menu thing, they show the fans.

01:53:52   They say one of the fans is the blower fan,

01:53:54   which is that one that's on the side, kind of, right?

01:53:56   - Yeah, like it cools the RAM slots or whatever.

01:53:59   - Yep, and it's a differently designed fan.

01:54:01   It's like a, I don't know,

01:54:02   it looks more like a water wheel for air,

01:54:03   an impeller, I don't know what that was called.

01:54:05   Anyway. - It's called a blower,

01:54:06   actually. (laughs)

01:54:07   - Yeah, exactly.

01:54:08   And then there are the three fans in the front,

01:54:10   and iStat menu labels them fan one, fan two, and fan three,

01:54:14   and I was trying to determine if me having two GPUs

01:54:17   now taking up six slots, the height of six slots in my thing,

01:54:22   is that making the bottom fan run more,

01:54:25   because that's where the two GPUs are.

01:54:27   There used to be one little skinny GPU there,

01:54:28   now there's one gigantic GPU plus the skinny one.

01:54:31   But it occurred to me, I don't know which one is fan one,

01:54:34   fan two, and fan three.

01:54:36   So I did a bunch of Googling,

01:54:37   and as you can imagine,

01:54:39   this is not an easy Google query to formulate,

01:54:41   because, you know, anyway.

01:54:43   Like I couldn't find anything telling me

01:54:45   whether fan one, fan two,

01:54:46   I didn't even know if those were official Apple names.

01:54:48   And I, you know, I thought maybe fan one is the top,

01:54:53   fan two is the middle, you know,

01:54:54   the only thing I was sure about is fan two

01:54:55   is probably the middle one, right?

01:54:57   Other than that, I couldn't figure it out.

01:54:59   Yeah, so I wrote to the developer and I said,

01:55:02   you know, what's fan one, fan two, and fan three?

01:55:04   And I also said, is there some place in the app

01:55:06   where I could have figured this out,

01:55:07   'cause I figured maybe they have a diagram somewhere

01:55:09   that I couldn't find.

01:55:10   And so if you take a look on the Slack channel,

01:55:11   there's a picture I just posted.

01:55:14   This is the picture that was attached to the email

01:55:16   that I got back from the OS X.

01:55:18   - Oh no.

01:55:19   - This is making me uncomfortable.

01:55:21   So I'm looking at-

01:55:22   - And so what the email says is,

01:55:23   in our testing, please see attached,

01:55:27   we've concluded that fan three is the top fan.

01:55:30   So the photograph is of a Mac Pro

01:55:33   with a wooden stick poking into it.

01:55:36   The wooden stick presumably stopping the top fan

01:55:38   and then seeing which one of the RPMs drops to zero.

01:55:41   - I was going to suggest, like,

01:55:43   why don't you just hold your finger on the axle of each one?

01:55:45   But I would never have done that to my own,

01:55:48   'cause like, that's probably gonna burn out a motor

01:55:50   at some point, like you don't wanna do that

01:55:52   if you don't have to.

01:55:53   - I did that to my Synology recently,

01:55:54   'cause I was down there, I was down in the basement

01:55:57   long enough to be annoyed by the Synology fan noise.

01:55:59   I'm like, is one of my fans going bad?

01:56:01   Let me just stop one of the fans,

01:56:02   just to see if like that's the one that's making the noise,

01:56:04   'cause there's multiple fans.

01:56:06   And boy, the fans in my Synology are very powerful.

01:56:09   They snapped the toothpick right in half.

01:56:12   I stuck a toothpick in there to stop the fan.

01:56:14   They were like, toothpick?

01:56:15   Forget about that, anyway.

01:56:17   - You're supposed to like stick your finger

01:56:18   on the axle of the fan.

01:56:19   - Yeah, I know, I was doing it without disassembling it,

01:56:21   so it's kinda hard to get to the grading,

01:56:23   you know, I couldn't really, so I'd use the tooth, anyway.

01:56:25   But yeah, I would not have the guts

01:56:27   to try this experiment, so thank you,

01:56:29   iStat menu developers for destroying your own Mac Pro

01:56:31   to let me know.

01:56:32   But honestly, it's your software,

01:56:34   you should be able to figure out whether fan one

01:56:36   is the top one without doing this.

01:56:38   So yeah, like I said, the answer is that fan three

01:56:41   is the top fan, but then he says they're probably going to,

01:56:44   they'll think about renaming them to make it clearer

01:56:46   in the actual shipping application.

01:56:47   This is still a beta that has Mac Pro support.

01:56:50   - By the way, I can't speak for the beta,

01:56:51   but in iStat menus that I'm running,

01:56:54   if you open the preferences, there's global on the left

01:56:56   at the top, and there's a pause button next to it.

01:56:58   If you pause that, iStat menu stops.

01:57:01   - Yeah, that's what I was referring to.

01:57:02   - Sure it does.

01:57:03   (laughing)

01:57:04   - Go run kex load and see if the kernel is back.

01:57:07   - Oh my God.

01:57:08   Oh my God.

01:57:09   (bell dings)

01:57:10   - The other thing I realized when I was playing Destiny

01:57:11   is like a cool thing happened when I was playing.

01:57:14   I'm like, how do I save that?

01:57:16   Oh, I'm not recording all the time

01:57:18   like I am in the PlayStation.

01:57:19   When for dedicated hardware, the PlayStation

01:57:21   is always recording, always be recording.

01:57:23   It is literally always recording.

01:57:25   So I don't have to remember before to record my gameplay.

01:57:28   After I do something cool, I can just say, save that.

01:57:32   And when I did something cool on my quote unquote PC,

01:57:35   it's gone.

01:57:37   (laughing)

01:57:38   'Cause I wasn't recording.

01:57:40   As far as I know, as far as I know, it's not recording.

01:57:42   I know that Steam has some game capture recording thing

01:57:45   that I managed to bring up, but it's like,

01:57:46   but it's too late, it's after the fact.

01:57:49   So many overlays in PC gaming, so many overlays.

01:57:52   - Yeah, whenever I launch Minecraft on TIFF's gaming PC,

01:57:54   it tells me this thing about the Xbox game bar.

01:57:57   I'm like, what are you doing?

01:57:58   What the hell is this?

01:57:59   What are you doing?

01:58:00   Why, what?

01:58:01   - It's got a social thing.

01:58:02   It's got a bunch of stuff in there for capture and stuff,

01:58:04   so it's nice that there's a system level,

01:58:06   or it's Steam, the way I'm using it,

01:58:08   but it's nice that there are sort of meta gaming products

01:58:11   that no matter what game you're playing

01:58:12   can do a cool thing for it,

01:58:13   but just so much crap on your screen.

01:58:15   You've already got the game UI,

01:58:17   and then you've got the Steam UI,

01:58:18   and then you've got the game bar.

01:58:20   - And I, when we were talking about my Minecraft starting,

01:58:26   and I had to get a screenshot,

01:58:28   like you told me to take a screenshot of what I had built,

01:58:30   and make it the chapter art,

01:58:32   so I'm running around like right before publishing the show

01:58:34   trying to get a screenshot,

01:58:35   and I used the Xbox game bar or whatever on the PC

01:58:39   to just capture the screenshot.

01:58:40   First of all, figuring that out was non-trivial,

01:58:43   and then to try to figure out, okay,

01:58:45   where did it save the file?

01:58:47   As someone who doesn't remember a lot about Windows,

01:58:51   and I mean, the last version of Windows I used extensively

01:58:54   was Windows XP, and that was a very long time ago,

01:58:57   I had no clue where to even begin to look.

01:59:00   It took me forever to find where the heck it put this file.

01:59:05   It was totally not obvious.

01:59:07   Like, it's funny, when I use the PC,

01:59:10   I get a slight glimpse into what it must be like

01:59:13   to be a normal person using a PC,

01:59:15   like who's not a computer nerd,

01:59:16   because I'm so unfamiliar with this platform

01:59:19   that lots of other people are totally familiar with.

01:59:22   I feel like I'm such a noob,

01:59:24   and I don't know what I'm doing,

01:59:25   and everything is confusing, nothing makes sense,

01:59:28   I do everything very carefully and gingerly,

01:59:31   'cause I don't wanna break it.

01:59:32   Like, right now, we're kind of alternating

01:59:34   between the Minecraft Bedrock Edition,

01:59:37   'cause we play some games that use that,

01:59:39   and the Java Edition,

01:59:40   'cause we play on a server that uses that,

01:59:42   and I have both installed, and I have both icons

01:59:45   in whatever the start bar is called these days.

01:59:48   Both of them next to each other,

01:59:49   they have very similar icons.

01:59:51   All I wanna do is rename one of them

01:59:53   to say Minecraft Bedrock Edition,

01:59:55   and rename the other one to say Minecraft Java Edition.

01:59:57   I cannot for the life of me figure out

01:59:59   how to rename things in this bar,

02:00:01   and I just gave up.

02:00:01   I'm like, all right, fine, I'll just know

02:00:03   like the one on the left is this,

02:00:04   and the one on the right is this.

02:00:05   And it's exactly the kind of like failure of computer usage

02:00:09   that we as nerds, we see other people doing that,

02:00:12   and we're like, oh, what a shame.

02:00:14   They could be making this so much better

02:00:15   if they just held down control,

02:00:18   and right-clicked this, and hit F4, or whatever,

02:00:20   and we know all those things, but no one else does.

02:00:23   Now I'm kind of getting a taste of that.

02:00:25   - Yeah, I've been, you know, my brief forties into Windows 10,

02:00:28   mostly just trying to make sure that the sound

02:00:30   is going to the right place,

02:00:31   and to make sure the drivers are hooked up,

02:00:33   and stuff like that.

02:00:34   The Windows 10, like the shell that's covering

02:00:38   the deep internal guts of Windows XP still lurking,

02:00:41   or Windows 7 still lurking under there, whatever,

02:00:43   it's mostly faked me out.

02:00:44   Like, I don't like the interface,

02:00:46   but in general, their search is good,

02:00:47   and I can find what I'm looking for pretty easily.

02:00:50   When I installed the new drivers from a video card,

02:00:53   of course, like every PC thing,

02:00:54   there's some weird-ass application

02:00:56   that comes with the drivers, like AMD settings,

02:00:59   and it's like this weird, like it looks weird,

02:01:01   it's got a custom UI, it's like brushed metal,

02:01:03   like all custom, everything, and it's like,

02:01:06   do you really need an entire, I guess AMD probably does,

02:01:08   for you know, formerly ATI for their video cards,

02:01:11   but like it's this whole other world of places

02:01:13   you can screw with your video card,

02:01:15   including a tab that has some acronym

02:01:17   that I didn't recognize that as soon as you click on it,

02:01:19   it says, "Warning, you can damage your monitor

02:01:21   "by changing these settings."

02:01:22   It's like, all right, nope, nope, just not that monitor.

02:01:25   I don't know what that is, but I am not going to that tab.

02:01:28   Like, you can change everything

02:01:30   in these weird custom apps.

02:01:33   And then, of course, I had that open at the same time

02:01:35   as I had the Microsoft displays setting it open.

02:01:37   It's like, what if I, if I change like something over here,

02:01:40   like if I change the bit depth,

02:01:41   or if I change the resolution,

02:01:43   will it reflect on the other UI?

02:01:44   Probably not.

02:01:45   So I just, you know.

02:01:47   Again, I like that you're being very careful.

02:01:48   Just back away, just close one of the applications.

02:01:51   If you're about to change resolution,

02:01:52   just do it in one place.

02:01:54   In fact, don't even have that application running.

02:01:56   The other thing, the only thing that's driving me nuts

02:01:57   about Windows in the brief time that I'm using it

02:01:59   is like, let's say I download these AMD drivers.

02:02:02   It's the typical Windows browser thing

02:02:04   where it gives you that dialogue

02:02:06   that has evolved over the years,

02:02:07   but it's still basically the same,

02:02:08   which is the option is open, run.

02:02:11   Like, what do you want me to do with this download, right?

02:02:14   You know, one of the options is just like, let it download.

02:02:17   It's okay for this download.

02:02:18   The other one is like, show me the folder

02:02:20   after it's finished downloading.

02:02:21   The final one is actually launch the thing

02:02:23   after it finishes downloading.

02:02:24   And if it's on downloading drivers, they just launch it,

02:02:27   'cause if I don't launch it,

02:02:28   like Marco, I won't know where the hell it is.

02:02:30   So just run it.

02:02:31   - That's what most people do,

02:02:32   'cause they don't know where the hell it is either.

02:02:34   - Right.

02:02:35   But like, the running thing, I think what ran,

02:02:38   it ran like the unzip process or something.

02:02:40   It basically threw me into an Explorer window

02:02:42   that showed me like a folder.

02:02:44   Like, oh, well, I guess it extracted it.

02:02:46   So I go into the folder and there's setup.exe, right?

02:02:48   I double click setup.exe.

02:02:50   And I'm always like, oh,

02:02:52   I didn't adjust the double-click settings.

02:02:54   Maybe I didn't double click fast enough,

02:02:56   'cause I double click and it seems like nothing happens.

02:02:58   (laughing)

02:02:58   Like nothing happens, right?

02:03:01   And so I right click and select open.

02:03:03   And I must have done this over the time

02:03:06   that I've had this Mac Pro messing bootcamp,

02:03:08   like five times.

02:03:09   This happens all the time.

02:03:10   What happens is eventually, like the thing is set up,

02:03:13   you know, the setup thing comes on the screen.

02:03:15   It has the next, next, next button.

02:03:16   I'm going to the wizard.

02:03:17   Halfway through the wizard, I get a dialog box

02:03:19   that comes up that says, sorry,

02:03:20   another copy of this application is already running.

02:03:23   That's the second right click open happening, right?

02:03:26   The open takes so long to run

02:03:27   and there's no visual feedback that,

02:03:29   yeah, my first double click did work.

02:03:31   And so did my right click open.

02:03:33   And one of them ran and I'm interacting

02:03:35   but then the second one finally launches and says,

02:03:37   oh, I can't run 'cause there's another copy of me running.

02:03:39   If you're lucky, that happens.

02:03:40   If you're unlucky, a second copy runs

02:03:42   and then you're like, I don't know what the hell's going on.

02:03:43   (laughing)

02:03:44   But like, I came to appreciate the dock

02:03:46   and the stupid bouncy icons

02:03:47   because if there is some visual indication

02:03:50   in the default Windows 10 UI

02:03:52   that I have successfully double clicked a thing,

02:03:54   I can't find it.

02:03:55   And if your thing doesn't really throw a wind up on the screen

02:03:58   you have no idea whether you successfully double clicked it.

02:04:00   That seems like a basic thing.

02:04:02   - I have found like I, in my, you know,

02:04:05   admittedly very minimal usage of Windows here,

02:04:08   I have been able to find most settings

02:04:11   that I had to change or wanted to change.

02:04:13   But the process of finding settings

02:04:17   is kind of soul crushing because--

02:04:19   - That's like website.

02:04:20   - Yeah, well because there's so much complexity

02:04:25   still in Windows because, you know,

02:04:27   just a combination of, you know,

02:04:29   lots of inherent complexity in what Windows is

02:04:33   but also lots of legacy complexity

02:04:34   in what Windows was and always has been.

02:04:36   And so they have like all sorts of different levels

02:04:40   and screens and modes and different settings,

02:04:43   Windows and panes and everything.

02:04:45   Nobody can find anything and they know this.

02:04:49   And so the process of trying to get,

02:04:53   trying to change the setting in Windows

02:04:55   feels almost like a touch tone menu on a phone.

02:04:57   It's like, all right, what kind of thing do you wanna do?

02:05:01   Here's a bunch of very long text descriptions

02:05:04   that you have to read about all the different areas

02:05:07   and modes you might wanna try.

02:05:09   And then it's just like a wall of text everywhere you go

02:05:14   that is not what you want but it's more like

02:05:17   a pointer to what you want.

02:05:19   It's like explaining like, okay, well,

02:05:21   here's the kind of category that we have

02:05:23   over in this department.

02:05:25   You click here to be quick linked over to that department

02:05:29   and we'll transfer you there and they can keep helping you.

02:05:31   You click on that link and then you go

02:05:33   to the next department.

02:05:34   Okay, here's another giant wall of text.

02:05:36   What kind of thing within this department do you wanna do?

02:05:39   And eventually you go through two or three of those

02:05:41   and eventually it opens up some kind of actual settings pane

02:05:44   that like, it's just, it's so weird.

02:05:47   And that is one approach.

02:05:49   Like if you have massive complexity

02:05:53   and huge amounts of layers and layers upon layers

02:05:56   of legacy and cruft, one approach is to just throw walls

02:06:01   of text at people to try to get them to successfully navigate

02:06:05   and that will work to some degree.

02:06:07   It's incredibly inelegant, but it does kind of sort of work.

02:06:12   I guess a better approach would be just try to get rid

02:06:15   of a lot of that complexity, but they don't seem,

02:06:17   like the entire OS feels so designed by committee

02:06:20   at this point that that's never gonna happen.

02:06:22   So I'm just enjoying the ride of whenever I have

02:06:25   to change anything in Windows, like all right,

02:06:26   how do I do it?

02:06:27   Well, let me just go talk to the committee

02:06:29   and they will transfer me to the other committee

02:06:30   and eventually somebody will send me in the right direction.

02:06:33   - I appreciate the options on the game stuff,

02:06:35   like that game bar thing that I mentioned I brought up.

02:06:37   One of the things that it brings up is an audio panel

02:06:40   that I would have killed for on my PlayStation even.

02:06:43   Like it's an audio panel that said,

02:06:45   here's your master volume, here's the volume

02:06:47   of the Steam application, here's the game volume,

02:06:50   here's the voice chat volume, here's the mix between them.

02:06:53   It was just like, yes, that's every setting

02:06:55   I'll ever wanna change, 'cause you know

02:06:56   when you're playing a game, I don't know,

02:06:57   if you're trying to play a game and you're streaming,

02:06:59   you have voice chat and like just one volume control

02:07:02   is not enough, you're always the one to adjust

02:07:03   all the volumes and all the different things.

02:07:05   And here it was one little panel that had sliders

02:07:07   for literally every single volume,

02:07:08   including mixes between stuff.

02:07:10   And on PlayStation even, which has settings for that,

02:07:12   you gotta go back to the system menu,

02:07:14   then go into the thing and scroll down

02:07:16   and adjust this thing here, but then make sure

02:07:18   this chat is going through that, but then in the game

02:07:20   it has its own set of settings.

02:07:21   This had one little floating window,

02:07:23   granted in this giant set of overlay things,

02:07:25   that had all the adjustments on it.

02:07:27   And forget about on the Mac, Mac would have no,

02:07:29   you have like system volume and that's it,

02:07:31   maybe you have separate volume settings in the game itself.

02:07:34   This was like, no matter what game you're playing,

02:07:36   these are all the volume settings that you can deal with.

02:07:39   I was very impressed.

02:07:41   Everything's better when it comes to gaming over on PC.

02:07:44   Other than actually having to boot Windows.

02:07:47   (laughing)

02:07:48   God, which just continues to be a challenge.

02:07:50   Black screens, like I hate every time I have to disconnect

02:07:52   my LG monitor for my PlayStation.

02:07:54   It's such a pain with the stupid power brick

02:07:56   and the power cord and getting an HDMI cable

02:07:58   and dragging it over here and it's just,

02:08:00   just wish it would just work.

02:08:03   Oh, and the other weird thing is,

02:08:05   when I wanted to reboot,

02:08:06   I set my startup disk to be Windows

02:08:08   just because I was rebooting so many times

02:08:10   and I didn't wanna like have to hold on option

02:08:12   to pick the drive, I just wanted to default boot off Windows.

02:08:15   Then eventually, I'm like, okay, well, I'm done with that.

02:08:17   I disconnected my Windows drive, put it away.

02:08:19   And then I boot and I'm like,

02:08:20   I'm gonna boot back into Mac OS.

02:08:22   And it booted and it was like grinding my hard drive

02:08:24   like crazy, like my spinning hard drive.

02:08:26   Like what are you doing hard drive?

02:08:27   Like so much so that it couldn't even,

02:08:29   it was like beach balling and I couldn't even get

02:08:30   a right click to eject the thing.

02:08:32   It's like, why, why are you, like,

02:08:34   is it Spotlight trying to index my drive?

02:08:36   Why is it even mounting?

02:08:37   Shouldn't it be auto,

02:08:38   as I had a bunch of stuff set to not mount and blah, blah,

02:08:40   blah.

02:08:41   And eventually I think I figured out that what it had done

02:08:44   was booted onto my spinning disk super duper clone.

02:08:48   Let me tell you, don't do that.

02:08:49   I should not like, I mean, it worked.

02:08:52   Like the fact that it took me a while to notice,

02:08:54   but mostly what I noticed was that incredible noise.

02:08:56   And it's like, that's my boot disk.

02:08:58   It's grinding my boot disk.

02:09:01   'Cause I think it was probably spotlight indexing

02:09:03   or preparing a time machine backup of my boot disk.

02:09:05   Boy, what a racket.

02:09:07   So yeah, rebooted into the SSD way quieter.

02:09:09   - See, hopefully when this arm transition finally happens,

02:09:14   it will finally force you to just get a fricking gaming PC

02:09:17   and separate these roles so you can stop doing

02:09:20   all these crazy hacks.

02:09:20   - Seems like I already have one as evidence

02:09:23   from my Destiny gameplay experience today.

02:09:26   As we know, that's the only game that I care about playing.

02:09:29   So I think I'm all set on the gaming PC front.

02:09:32   The only thing I could wish for is I would like it

02:09:34   if my PlayStation controllers were wireless,

02:09:36   but that's not a Mac root specific thing.

02:09:38   I think it's just a Steam thing.

02:09:39   I haven't quite figured out how to get that to work yet.

02:09:40   But yeah, it was pretty good.

02:09:42   The only problem is that A, cheating is more rampant

02:09:45   on PC for obvious reasons, and that's kind of annoying.

02:09:48   And B, people are a little bit better on PC

02:09:52   and that makes me feel worse.

02:09:53   - You know, we know some people who are very extreme

02:09:57   or specialized or really good at certain things.

02:10:00   Like our friend underscore David Smith,

02:10:02   I think he might be the person in the world

02:10:05   who has made the most apps for the Apple Watch,

02:10:09   including people who work for Apple on the Apple Watch team.

02:10:13   I think he has almost certainly spent the most time total

02:10:16   writing watchOS apps compared to probably anyone else

02:10:19   in the world.

02:10:20   Do you think you might be the only person in the world

02:10:25   who is using a 2020 Mac Pro as a gaming PC?

02:10:29   - I'm not using it as a gaming PC.

02:10:31   I played some games on it.

02:10:33   And no, I'm not the only one playing some games.

02:10:34   I guarantee that everybody who has one of these things

02:10:37   who doesn't need it for legitimate purposes

02:10:38   is playing games on it in Windows at some point.

02:10:40   - Really?

02:10:41   - Why else would they have it?

02:10:42   - Do you think, are there many people who buy this computer

02:10:46   just for the heck of it besides you and Macs?

02:10:48   - I don't think there's a lot of them,

02:10:50   but how many people do you know?

02:10:51   We know me, Steven Hackett, Quinn Nelson.

02:10:55   There's three people right there.

02:10:58   It's a small group, but it's not like they don't exist.

02:11:01   - You might be the only person using that computer

02:11:05   as a gaming PC.

02:11:06   - I just played a game on it, using it as a gaming PC.

02:11:08   I'm not the only person.

02:11:09   - Installing boot, what I mean by that is,

02:11:11   installing boot camp and running Windows games

02:11:14   on it on a regular basis.

02:11:15   - It's not regular basis.

02:11:17   Before it wasn't because my GPU was crappy.

02:11:18   Now I have a decision.

02:11:20   Probably mostly what's gonna happen is I continue

02:11:22   to play on the PlayStation just because I don't wanna reboot

02:11:24   my beautiful Mac because it is painful to reboot in Windows,

02:11:27   but it was definitely cool.

02:11:28   And you know, Mac games I'm now much more interested in too

02:11:33   because now I have the ability to play them,

02:11:35   but honestly I don't think there's many Mac games

02:11:36   that would challenge my gaming PCs, even the old GPU.

02:11:41   I'm not the only one, but yes, there are dozens of us.

02:11:47   Maybe not more than dozens.

02:11:50   - Probably not, I can't imagine.

02:11:52   - All right, Casey's gonna turn into a pumpkin

02:11:54   when we have to let him go to sleep.

02:11:56   - I'm still here, I'm still here, I'm fine.

02:11:58   - And you don't even know if your garage door is closed.

02:11:59   He's got a lot of on his mind right now.

02:12:01   - I know, it's terrible.

02:12:03   Actually, the funny thing is I can look on the app

02:12:05   to see if it's open or closed, so let me look.

02:12:08   - Wait.

02:12:09   - And this app is so bad.

02:12:10   - You can just open the app and check?

02:12:13   - Yeah, but I want a little LED that shines.

02:12:15   - Oh my God, this whole time,

02:12:18   that could have been the solution?

02:12:20   - Now you have to cut this whole segment.

02:12:22   - Oh my God.

02:12:23   - No, he's gonna drop this in at the end.

02:12:24   - He left out the most salient,

02:12:26   idiotic piece of information.

02:12:27   He's gonna set up a phone with an old iPod touch

02:12:32   with the app always running and point a camera at it,

02:12:34   use machine learning to figure out.

02:12:36   (laughing)

02:12:38   And the boot will knock over the fish bowl,

02:12:40   the cat will chase the fish.

02:12:42   - Clearly the easier way of accomplishing this.

02:12:45   Why would I do anything else?

02:12:45   - Light the candle that'll burst the balloon

02:12:48   and send a trolley on its way.

02:12:50   - I said from the get-go, this was overkill.

02:12:53   I said it from the get-go.

02:12:55   (beeping)

02:12:57   [ Silence ]