368: A Jacket and Some Pins


00:00:00   So Kasey, what trackpad are you using? (laughs)

00:00:04   - Look at the show notes, Marco,

00:00:06   I saw you using the show notes.

00:00:08   There is a time and a place for me to talk about my computer.

00:00:11   - So Kasey, what OS are you using? (laughs)

00:00:15   - I will say that I did not downgrade,

00:00:17   and there are reasons, there are reasons.

00:00:19   Most of them came from, I think it was

00:00:21   a post-show conversation between the three of us,

00:00:23   where I was convinced not to do it yet,

00:00:25   but I don't wanna talk about that yet.

00:00:27   - So who's going over to kick you?

00:00:30   - Yeah, I don't know, that's up to you guys.

00:00:32   - Give me one moment, I have to go turn

00:00:33   the air conditioning on, 'cause it's super hot in here.

00:00:36   - Remember when Marco said he was gonna hang out

00:00:38   above 77 degrees in his beach house?

00:00:40   I remember that.

00:00:42   - I remember that too.

00:00:43   - He's gonna turn on the air conditioning?

00:00:44   - All right.

00:00:45   - What the hell temperature is it over there?

00:00:47   I just jammed my mouse cursor into the lower left corner

00:00:50   to try to get dashboard to come up.

00:00:52   - Aww.

00:00:53   - 'Cause I wanted to see what the weather was.

00:00:55   It was just instinctive.

00:00:56   - What temperature is it?

00:00:57   - Mouse goes into the lower left corner, nothing happens.

00:01:00   - Yeah, it's 46 degrees, but it's a hot room.

00:01:03   - Yeah, if you need that AC, you're right,

00:01:04   get that on immediately.

00:01:06   - Let's start, as we must do, with some follow-up.

00:01:10   We had some really genuinely great feedback

00:01:14   with regard to radar and feedback assistant,

00:01:17   and my particular feedback with regard to my catalina woes,

00:01:21   which we'll get to in just a moment.

00:01:23   According to a couple of different people, I believe,

00:01:27   feedback, or feedbacks is, I guess, the plural of them,

00:01:31   those get turned into radars internally.

00:01:33   So feedback assistant, which is what the peons,

00:01:36   like the three of us, would use to file a bug,

00:01:39   those are their own bucket of things,

00:01:41   those are the feedbacks.

00:01:43   And then internal to Apple, they get turned into radars.

00:01:47   And so one of the other things that we had asked about,

00:01:49   either on Twitter or perhaps here on the show,

00:01:51   was, I think one of you guys, in fact,

00:01:53   brought it up last week, that you could do

00:01:55   rdar colon slash slash and then a radar number,

00:01:58   and that, on an Apple-owned computer,

00:02:01   would give the person a hyperlink directly into radar

00:02:04   to that direct ticket.

00:02:06   And according to anonymous people, those links do still work,

00:02:09   but the feedback number is different from the radar number.

00:02:13   Feedbacks generate a radar when they're submitted

00:02:15   and they get handled internally as the radar.

00:02:17   The feedback number is in a field of the radar,

00:02:19   so you can search for or track an issue by feedback number

00:02:22   or radar number, but if you're linking to it

00:02:24   with rdar colon slash slash, you have to use radar number.

00:02:27   And this one particular individual added,

00:02:29   I think the idea is that this lets the radar

00:02:31   get handled internally as a radar

00:02:33   without worrying about confidential information

00:02:34   getting transmitted back to the user.

00:02:37   I'm not sure about how or when things get transmitted back

00:02:40   to feedback assistant or the user.

00:02:43   - Sounds worse than the old system,

00:02:44   or even farther removed from the actual,

00:02:47   like, before we threw things into this web thing

00:02:50   that went into this bucket that got viewed by a native app,

00:02:52   now we're in this native app that throws things

00:02:54   into a bucket that goes into another bucket

00:02:56   that gets viewed by the real,

00:02:58   and then they don't even know if I do something in radar,

00:03:01   how does that propagate back to the customers?

00:03:04   So disconnected, it's kind of like a software developer's

00:03:08   relationship with their customers in the app store.

00:03:10   Very distant.

00:03:11   - I love that you're now one of us,

00:03:14   like after all this time.

00:03:15   - I know.

00:03:16   - You got an iPhone like 15 years after the iPhone

00:03:18   was released, like you finally joined the club.

00:03:19   - I got an iPod touch on day one,

00:03:22   just same thing, no phone calls.

00:03:23   And it was faster, dammit, it was faster.

00:03:26   - Yeah, that very first one, it had like

00:03:28   a slightly higher clocked CPU, right?

00:03:30   - It did.

00:03:31   - It was like 10% faster.

00:03:32   - It was thinner and faster, it was obviously better.

00:03:35   Who needs to make phone calls?

00:03:36   - Oh my word.

00:03:38   - All right, so let's talk about Casey's Computer Corner.

00:03:40   I know that during the main part of the show

00:03:43   that I had said that one of you needs to come

00:03:45   to Richmond and kick me if I have not yet

00:03:47   downgraded to Mojave.

00:03:49   We were discussing before the show,

00:03:51   possibly before we went live,

00:03:53   who it was that was going to come and kick me

00:03:55   because I am still in Catalina.

00:03:56   But I have reasons and I have updates.

00:03:58   So I will leave it to the two of you

00:04:01   to decide who's going to make the trek down to Virginia.

00:04:03   It sounds like--

00:04:04   - John, John, my finger's on my nose, it's John.

00:04:05   - Heard Margot's made an automatic kicking machine.

00:04:08   - That's true.

00:04:09   Well done.

00:04:12   So anyway, so speaking of radars and feedbacks

00:04:14   and things of that nature, we did get an anonymous update

00:04:17   on the radar that was created from the feedback

00:04:19   that I had created complaining and moaning

00:04:21   and trying to get fixes for my poor iMac Pro.

00:04:25   And so this anonymous person basically paraphrased,

00:04:29   and I'm now paraphrasing the paraphrase,

00:04:31   what they had seen in the radar.

00:04:33   But if I understand what they said appropriately,

00:04:36   and I'm waiting for John to correct me

00:04:38   after I make my little spiel here,

00:04:40   it's that according to Apple, potentially thread contention

00:04:45   on kernel tasks VM map lock to the point

00:04:50   that the keyboard and mouse events can't get a lock

00:04:52   on this like global queue.

00:04:54   I'm pretty confident I butchered that pretty well.

00:04:56   John, can you translate that into something

00:04:58   that makes more sense?

00:04:59   - I didn't read the message with that much level of detail.

00:05:01   I think you got the gist of it.

00:05:02   It's just lock contention.

00:05:03   But why is there so much contention?

00:05:06   I think like that is the, well, two things.

00:05:07   Why is there so much contention, first of all?

00:05:09   And second of all, why does Catalina handle

00:05:11   that contention worse than Mojave apparently?

00:05:14   - Yep, and I have no answers for that.

00:05:15   But another thing that was said in the radar

00:05:18   according to this anonymous little birdie

00:05:19   is that a bunch of SMB kernel work is to blame.

00:05:23   Now I'm assuming SMB in this context is like Samba,

00:05:25   like server message block, whatever it's called,

00:05:27   like network shares.

00:05:28   And the reason I think that is because the Apple person

00:05:31   noted that MDS and backup D, and more importantly,

00:05:35   crash plan service and Plex were all between them

00:05:38   spawning a zillion threads, all doing stuff

00:05:40   across the network using what I used to call Samba,

00:05:44   basically a Windows-style network share to my sonology.

00:05:47   And apparently the Apple person called out CrashPlan

00:05:49   as being particularly egregious in this department.

00:05:51   - I'm shocked.

00:05:52   - And so--

00:05:53   - CrashPlan software might be inefficient.

00:05:55   - Who knew?

00:05:57   It's such, it's so bad, it's so bad.

00:05:59   And we're gonna talk about that later if you let me.

00:06:00   But anyway, it seemed like that was causing

00:06:04   some real problems.

00:06:05   Now I agree with you, John.

00:06:05   I'm not entirely clear why this is worse in Catalina.

00:06:09   Another thing that was mentioned that I didn't copy

00:06:10   to the Stair Notes, now I'm going right off the top

00:06:12   of my head, is that as cores go up, the amount of things

00:06:16   that could be asking for this global lock also goes up.

00:06:20   So on an iMac Pro that has, I don't even know

00:06:23   how many cores I have, a billion, this iMac Pro,

00:06:27   that could actually exacerbate it and make things even worse,

00:06:29   which is no bueno.

00:06:31   But the reason I didn't downgrade, other than some

00:06:34   convincing from Marco and John that again, I don't think

00:06:37   made the released version of the episode,

00:06:39   I decided to take a few different strategies.

00:06:41   Now, number one, the thing that everyone wanted me to do,

00:06:45   which I said I was going to do and then did not do,

00:06:48   is try the other trackpad I have.

00:06:50   I had lamented, mostly jokingly, that it was,

00:06:52   oh, it was all the way up in the attic, I need to go get it,

00:06:54   blah, blah, blah.

00:06:55   So I went up to the attic the very moment I stopped recording

00:06:58   last week to get that other trackpad, that alternate

00:07:01   trackpad that came with the iMac Pro.

00:07:03   And it was when I got the keyboard and trackpad box

00:07:06   back downstairs, or back into the middle floor, if you will,

00:07:10   that I opened it up and realized, oh wait,

00:07:12   I got a mouse with this.

00:07:14   I forgot.

00:07:14   Like a traditional magic mouse, I completely forgot.

00:07:16   - Whoops. - Right, right.

00:07:18   I completely forgot, I didn't order a new trackpad

00:07:20   'cause why would I?

00:07:21   It seemed like I shouldn't need it.

00:07:24   So the reason I didn't try it was because I didn't have

00:07:26   an alternate one to try, and I absolutely had planned on

00:07:29   and was going to try it.

00:07:30   However, things, and let me do a little foley work

00:07:34   and knock on my glass desk very loudly,

00:07:36   things might be looking up, I think.

00:07:40   - So you're still using the old trackpad.

00:07:42   - Mm-hmm.

00:07:43   - Okay.

00:07:43   - Via Bluetooth, I should add.

00:07:44   I'm using a via Bluetooth.

00:07:46   - Did you just simply stop using Crash Plan?

00:07:48   - Well, almost.

00:07:50   The first thing, this is terrible, but I'm also overjoyed

00:07:55   that it seems to be getting better.

00:07:57   So the first thing I did was I started turning off

00:08:01   Crash Plan kind of strategically.

00:08:03   So when I was really sitting down working at the computer,

00:08:06   I turned Crash Plan completely off,

00:08:08   and there's a launch control command

00:08:10   that you can run in the terminal to turn it off.

00:08:12   Now, there are settings within Crash Plan

00:08:14   to be very gingerly, you'll treat the CPU

00:08:17   with very soft hands when the user is at the computer,

00:08:20   but I don't trust their crap software for anything,

00:08:23   so I just freaking turned it off.

00:08:25   And that helped some.

00:08:26   All right, listeners, here's the thing.

00:08:29   The other two aren't listening right now.

00:08:31   I'm about to say something that the two of them

00:08:33   are gonna have a choice, and they can either beat

00:08:36   the crap out of me for the next 20 minutes,

00:08:38   or they can be sympathetic and understanding.

00:08:40   So let's see what happens.

00:08:42   Right, so the other thing I did was

00:08:44   I took Plex off my computer, which pained me so much.

00:08:51   - Why would we complain about that?

00:08:52   - Because this is my world.

00:08:54   My world is my media consumption world.

00:08:57   - Plex is your world, not running Plex on your Mac.

00:09:00   You just have to have Plex running somewhere.

00:09:02   - Yeah, you can run it on pretty much anything.

00:09:04   - Well, that's the thing.

00:09:06   - Oh, did you upgrade your Synology?

00:09:08   - No, no, I want to so badly,

00:09:10   but that's a whole different discussion.

00:09:12   I also, we should talk about that later, but anyways.

00:09:15   It occurred to me that I had this Mac Mini

00:09:18   that was just kind of sitting there

00:09:19   that I had gotten from Justin at Mac Stadium.

00:09:24   And it's old, I don't even remember

00:09:26   exactly what vintage it is,

00:09:27   but it is more than enough to run Plex.

00:09:29   And it was literally sitting there sleeping in idle,

00:09:33   just because I wasn't doing anything with it.

00:09:35   I really wanted to have it in the house,

00:09:37   just in case, you never really know why,

00:09:39   but I wasn't doing anything with it.

00:09:40   And it occurred to me, wait a second,

00:09:42   why not run Plex on that?

00:09:44   And so I did that.

00:09:46   Well, I haven't literally removed it from my iMac Pro,

00:09:48   but I have not run it on my iMac Pro in about a week.

00:09:51   And I am running it on the Mac Mini.

00:09:55   And the moment I made that decision,

00:09:57   everything started to feel better.

00:09:59   That and the combination of Crash Plan,

00:10:00   not running generally speaking,

00:10:02   seems to have almost completely fixed my problems,

00:10:06   which is both wonderful and deeply depressing.

00:10:09   - What is Plex doing that would relate to contention?

00:10:12   Or do you have, like, is it in the background

00:10:14   making optimized versions?

00:10:16   Like how, I can understand how it would

00:10:18   spawn a bunch of threads.

00:10:19   Like, Plex is one of the least demanding uses

00:10:22   of network and file resources you can imagine.

00:10:25   Sequential reading, slow sequential reading

00:10:28   of very large files, granted, over the network.

00:10:30   But it's not like it's like Crash Plan,

00:10:32   where it's spawning a million threads

00:10:34   and trying to read every single file in your file system.

00:10:36   It's doing a targeted thing, right?

00:10:38   - Well, yes, and I do have Plex looking at my photo library,

00:10:43   which I don't think helps,

00:10:44   'cause I don't think mine is as big as yours, oh God.

00:10:47   I don't think my photo library is as big as yours,

00:10:49   but I am still sure that that doesn't help much.

00:10:54   And also I do have it scanning like every 15 minutes

00:10:57   for new media or whatever the case may be,

00:10:58   which is probably not necessary.

00:11:01   - The new media scan is nothing, but like the photos thing,

00:11:03   tell me, I don't have a use Plex with photos.

00:11:05   What does that entail?

00:11:06   Does it crawl in your photos library,

00:11:09   like periodically to see if there are new photos?

00:11:12   - It is.

00:11:13   Now, I still take your point though, Jon,

00:11:14   and I agree with you that it seems odd

00:11:16   that moving Plex away from the iMac Pro

00:11:19   has made such a big difference,

00:11:20   but it seems like it's made

00:11:22   a tremendous, tremendous difference.

00:11:23   And so that has worked really well.

00:11:26   Now, earlier today, I turned Crash Plan on

00:11:28   for the first time in a while,

00:11:30   and within, I don't know, a couple of minutes

00:11:32   of that happening, I got a machine gun track pad.

00:11:34   So I think the next step is,

00:11:36   and we're gonna talk about this more later,

00:11:37   I think the next step is I'm gonna move Crash Plan

00:11:40   also onto this Mac Mini,

00:11:42   although at that point I'm really tempting fate

00:11:43   'cause that Mac Mini is on Catalina,

00:11:45   and so maybe I'm just gonna move the problem

00:11:47   from one computer to another, who knows?

00:11:49   - But you don't need to use the Mac Mini interactively, right?

00:11:52   - That's the other thing, is that who really cares?

00:11:55   As long as the thing is functioning,

00:11:57   it doesn't really matter.

00:11:58   So that is probably the medium-term plan.

00:12:02   The long-term plan, which I'd like to get through

00:12:04   the rest of the follow-up before we discuss it,

00:12:05   but the long-term plan is I'd really like

00:12:07   to just divorce myself from Crash Plan entirely

00:12:08   and find a different mechanism to back up the Synology,

00:12:12   'cause that's really what I'm after with Crash Plan.

00:12:14   After having reloaded to both my laptop and desktop

00:12:17   like 44 times in the last six months,

00:12:19   I've gotten to the point that almost everything

00:12:21   that's actually on my computer is relatively ephemeral.

00:12:25   I'm sure there are things that are not,

00:12:26   but the majority is on GitHub, it's on my Synology,

00:12:31   it's, I don't know, in iCloud or something like that.

00:12:33   So it seems like it shouldn't be a problem

00:12:38   to just get rid of Crash Plan

00:12:42   and not have it backing up the iMac at all.

00:12:44   And I do have Time Machine if things really get bad,

00:12:47   but in a worst-case scenario, screw it.

00:12:48   I'll just reinstall everything on the computer from scratch.

00:12:51   So my question for later,

00:12:52   which I really don't wanna get into now,

00:12:54   is how do I back up the Synology

00:12:55   for less than $100 a month?

00:12:57   And I'm saying that only slightly facetiously.

00:13:00   But in summary, the Mac Mini has saved my bacon.

00:13:03   I really appreciate that Justin had sent it my way,

00:13:07   and everything so far seems okay.

00:13:09   Now, remind me of that in like 20 minutes

00:13:12   when this thing fails miserably,

00:13:13   but sitting here now, it all seems all right.

00:13:15   - You're narrowing it down like we talked about

00:13:17   by removing things from your computer.

00:13:18   It's just that you're not removing them temporarily

00:13:20   to troubleshoot, you're moving them permanently

00:13:21   into another computer that you don't have to use.

00:13:24   - And part of the motivation for moving Plex to the Mac Mini

00:13:27   was that Plex is the thing that is least ephemeral

00:13:31   on my iMac Pro.

00:13:33   And the reason I say that is because yes,

00:13:34   all the media is stored on the Synology,

00:13:36   literally 100% of it,

00:13:38   but the database of what I've watched

00:13:40   and where everything is and all of this metadata

00:13:43   and all that other garbage isn't stored on the Synology.

00:13:46   That was stored on my iMac.

00:13:48   And yes, it is backing itself up to the Synology

00:13:50   from time to time, but it's just a nightmare,

00:13:55   or it would have been a nightmare to move Plex

00:13:57   to another machine out of like haste or angst,

00:14:00   you know what I mean, like when it wasn't on my own terms.

00:14:02   And so by having it on this other computer,

00:14:05   unless the Mac Mini blows itself up,

00:14:07   that leaves me much more flexibility with the iMac

00:14:11   to downgrade it or to reinstall Catalina from scratch

00:14:14   if I felt like it for some strange reason.

00:14:16   Now the iMac Pro is much more flexible than it was before.

00:14:21   And so, yes, you're right, it's not a temporary thing

00:14:25   with regard to Plex anyway,

00:14:27   but having Plex on its own, basically dedicated device,

00:14:30   has really freed up a lot of the stress in my world

00:14:34   with regard to the iMac Pro.

00:14:35   - One more thing about Plex,

00:14:36   from my troubleshooting with sleep/wake stuff,

00:14:39   Plex is not great about,

00:14:43   this is a, if you search the web for this,

00:14:44   you'll find it's a bug that they supposedly fixed

00:14:46   in the past, but it's not great about it.

00:14:47   It will grab power assertions that keep your,

00:14:50   not only keep your computer from going to sleep,

00:14:52   but even keep your screen from like going

00:14:55   into the screensaver or dimming or switching off,

00:14:58   which, you know, it'll grab them

00:15:00   when you ask it to play video,

00:15:01   if you ever ask it to play video locally,

00:15:03   but then it just will not give them up a lot of the time.

00:15:06   Like you won't be actually playing any video,

00:15:09   because you had previously played video.

00:15:10   If you look at PM set, you'll see that Plex

00:15:12   has a power assertion that prevents the screen

00:15:15   from even dimming, and it's the worst,

00:15:16   because I'll walk by the downstairs of the house

00:15:19   and I'll say, "Where's that light coming from that room,

00:15:21   "'cause all the lights are out?"

00:15:21   And I'll look in there and I'll see that, you know,

00:15:23   the iMac's screen has been on full brightness

00:15:26   for the past two hours on the same screen,

00:15:28   because something grabbed a power assertion,

00:15:29   and it's always Plex, so Plex,

00:15:31   if you're out there and listening,

00:15:32   let go of your power assertions

00:15:34   when you're not playing video.

00:15:35   And people, if you have this happening to you,

00:15:37   Plex may be the culprit.

00:15:39   The way to fix it is just to quit the Plex server

00:15:41   and restart it, and then it doesn't have

00:15:42   the power assertion anymore, but it's still an annoying bug.

00:15:45   - No argument.

00:15:47   All right, tell me, Jon, about the Pegasus J2i, please.

00:15:50   - That's my $400 piece of bent metal

00:15:53   that holds hard drives that I shoved into my computer.

00:15:56   I had it on my desk for a while.

00:15:58   I had it on my desk last week.

00:15:59   On the weekend, I got some time

00:16:00   to open up the computer to do it.

00:16:02   This is my second time now opening up the computer.

00:16:05   I'm still terrible at it.

00:16:07   I think this design of getting the internals,

00:16:10   once you have the thing off, it's great

00:16:12   'cause you have access on all sides to the internals.

00:16:15   Getting it off, not so great.

00:16:17   A, I'm bad at it, but B, it is harder.

00:16:20   It is way harder than popping the side off

00:16:22   of an old cheese grater.

00:16:23   It's harder than opening the door

00:16:25   on a Yosemite or El Cap plastic tower case.

00:16:29   It is a physically difficult thing to do

00:16:34   because there's a lot of friction pulling the thing off,

00:16:37   and if you are not pulling exactly straight,

00:16:39   it doesn't come up.

00:16:40   All right, and it's especially difficult

00:16:41   because mine is on this little table thingy

00:16:44   that is lower than a desk but higher than the floor,

00:16:47   so there is a little bit of awkwardness

00:16:49   of trying to lift the thing up.

00:16:50   But anyway, that aside, I was all ready to install the thing,

00:16:54   and my first problem was that somehow

00:16:57   I don't have a T8 Torx driver in the house.

00:17:00   I have T6 and T, you know,

00:17:03   and all the sizes around it, T3,

00:17:06   just, I didn't have a T8, so I had to go out

00:17:07   and get another tool, which was kind of annoying.

00:17:09   But beyond that, installation went fairly well.

00:17:13   My only real complaint is that they give you a cable

00:17:18   to connect to the power and the two SATA ports.

00:17:22   You know, on the motherboard, there's a power connector

00:17:24   and then two SATA ports, and then there's the big

00:17:26   SATA cables that go to the actual drives.

00:17:28   And they make a single bundle of ribbon cables

00:17:32   that, you know, supposed to fulfill that role,

00:17:36   and they tape, it's like this bundle

00:17:38   of interleaved ribbon cables, they tape them together,

00:17:41   right, and you would think, great,

00:17:42   they know exactly which computer this is going in,

00:17:45   they know where all the parts are on the motherboard,

00:17:48   they know where the ports are gonna be on the hard drives,

00:17:50   this cable should be an exact fit.

00:17:52   But it is not, it is not an exact fit.

00:17:55   It, like, for starters, if you look at the parts

00:17:58   that plug into the drive, they are exactly level

00:18:01   with each other.

00:18:02   It's like, the drives are top and bottom,

00:18:04   they're not side by side, you can't have these things

00:18:07   be exactly level, like, it doesn't make any sense.

00:18:09   One of the drives is gonna be higher than the other,

00:18:11   therefore one of the connectors has to have

00:18:13   a longer ribbon cable on it.

00:18:15   Otherwise, either one's not gonna reach

00:18:17   or one's gonna be buckled.

00:18:18   Second, the connectors on the motherboard are horizontal,

00:18:22   like, it's the two SATA connectors and the power connector,

00:18:24   they're in a line horizontally, but the little,

00:18:27   the things that plug in there are not three different lengths

00:18:30   to go into things that are three different distances,

00:18:32   they're all the same length.

00:18:33   So I had to untape some of the tape that they had used

00:18:36   to tape together this bundle of wires,

00:18:38   just to try to get it so that things would plug in

00:18:40   without kinking too much.

00:18:41   I talked to Stephen Hackett, he said,

00:18:42   "Yeah, he did the same thing, he had to remove the tape."

00:18:44   So, you know, I guess you get what you pay for,

00:18:46   for only $400 for a bent piece of metal, you know,

00:18:49   they can't bother making the ribbon cable

00:18:51   be the right length.

00:18:52   Oh, and by the way, it's, you know,

00:18:53   $400 for a bent piece of metal.

00:18:54   I say that because that's all I wanted

00:18:56   was the bent piece of metal,

00:18:58   but it did come with an eight terabyte hard drive.

00:19:00   So that's where some of the cost is.

00:19:02   An eight terabyte hard drive, retail value, $134,

00:19:05   or whatever the hell it is.

00:19:07   Anyway, now I've got a big hard drive in my computer.

00:19:11   I ordered another hard drive to fill the other bay,

00:19:13   just because I wanted one a little bit bigger

00:19:15   than the other ones I have laying around.

00:19:17   So I'm doing that.

00:19:19   I don't like having a big noisy spinning hard drive

00:19:22   inside my otherwise quiet computer,

00:19:24   so I keep it unmounted and spun down.

00:19:26   Those two things are not synonymous with this computer

00:19:30   and Catalina, perhaps surprisingly.

00:19:32   When I wake my computer from sleep,

00:19:37   the hard drive spins up, even if it's not mounted,

00:19:40   and it stays spinning, even though it continues.

00:19:43   - Oh, you must love that.

00:19:44   - Even though it continues to be not mounted,

00:19:46   it's an easy fix.

00:19:47   You can just mount it and then unmount it,

00:19:49   and then it spins down.

00:19:50   And all this is to say is I can definitely hear

00:19:52   when the hard drive is spinning.

00:19:53   Forget about accessing, nothing is accessing it.

00:19:55   The drive is unmounted.

00:19:56   There is no hard drive heads moving back and forth,

00:19:59   but it's spinning, and I can hear that.

00:20:02   The solution to that, or one of the solutions

00:20:03   that I came up with, is this handy application

00:20:06   called Mountain, which I've had for ages,

00:20:08   used to use to mount and unmount my, at one time,

00:20:11   four internal drives on my old cheese grater.

00:20:14   And one of the features that Mountain has,

00:20:16   it's on the Mac App Store, but I bought it from the website

00:20:18   because anything that deals with hardware,

00:20:20   I figure that there's gonna be some feature

00:20:21   that can't implement it, it'll be in the Mac App Store

00:20:23   version, so buy direct, gives the developer more money,

00:20:26   and potentially has more features.

00:20:27   Anyway, there is a setting that,

00:20:30   there are many settings in Mountain,

00:20:31   one of which is, hey, when this drive is unmounted,

00:20:35   spin it down.

00:20:36   Or when I wake from sleep and it's not mounted,

00:20:38   spin it down.

00:20:39   There's a whole bunch of options about what you should do

00:20:41   when you reject it, what you should do

00:20:42   when you wake from sleep, and lo and behold,

00:20:44   just put that setting, and now when I wake my computer up,

00:20:47   the hard drive spins up, reminding me of my old

00:20:50   10-year-old cheese grater making some noises

00:20:52   of things spinning up, and then immediately spins down,

00:20:55   back to blessed, not quite silence.

00:20:58   So, mostly thumbs up on the ridiculously expensive

00:21:02   Pegasus J2i, big thumbs up from Mountain,

00:21:05   although I don't like the menu bar icon.

00:21:08   Could be better, but anyway, other than that,

00:21:10   I am headed towards having many, many terabytes

00:21:14   of internal storage, and soon I will be very happy.

00:21:18   - All right, Darren Rogers had some feedback

00:21:20   with regard to shorter certificate expiration,

00:21:22   which we had talked about last week.

00:21:24   Darren writes, "The shorter expirations also helps ensure

00:21:27   "that everyone, for a reasonable value of the term,

00:21:29   "is using the latest standards and best practices

00:21:31   "for their certificates.

00:21:32   "A concrete example would be the certificate transparency

00:21:35   "and SCT signed certificate timestamp.

00:21:38   "Any cert you get today should have an SCT,

00:21:40   "but that hasn't always been true,

00:21:42   "so there are many websites without them.

00:21:43   "The very nature of SCTs is such that they will mostly

00:21:46   "be useful when everyone has them and browsers

00:21:48   "can start requiring them.

00:21:49   "Until then, they are of nominal value."

00:21:51   So this shorter expiration kind of forces everyone

00:21:54   to embrace the latest and greatest quicker

00:21:56   than it would otherwise.

00:21:57   Additionally, Chris Thompson writes,

00:22:01   "You're right about certificate revocation

00:22:02   "not being very effective currently,

00:22:04   "and that an attacker having a year to use

00:22:06   "a compromised cert is still bad.

00:22:07   "That said, browsers still do use bundled verification lists

00:22:10   "to cache a set of revocations.

00:22:13   "By constraining the max certificate lifetime,

00:22:15   "that means you can potentially clear out

00:22:16   "the expired certificates, and this will take up

00:22:18   "less bandwidth, storage, memory, et cetera.

00:22:21   "Secondly, with long-lived certs,

00:22:22   "it becomes very hard to make important security changes

00:22:25   "to TLS certificates.

00:22:25   "For example, in SHA-1, signatures support was removed

00:22:29   "in browsers after increasing evidence

00:22:30   "that collisions were feasible,

00:22:32   "but if certs last up to five years,

00:22:34   "you can't just turn it off

00:22:35   "or set a reasonable cutoff point.

00:22:36   "Instead, browsers are stuck with a potentially

00:22:38   "half a decade-long deprecation window

00:22:40   "to avoid breaking the web, which is no fun."

00:22:43   - Yes, by the way, if any developers are listening

00:22:45   who don't read any security things,

00:22:46   SHA-1 is super-duper broken.

00:22:48   Don't use it for anything remotely related to security.

00:22:52   - Yeah, pretty much any hash that you would have worked with

00:22:54   in 2006 in PHP or whatever,

00:22:57   it's probably broken at this point.

00:22:59   - MD5, if you don't know it for many, many years,

00:23:01   has been broken in this way.

00:23:03   SHA-1, in the past couple of years,

00:23:05   has been super-duper broken in this way, so there you have it.

00:23:09   - And then, a friend of the show, Ben Thompson,

00:23:10   of Stratechery wrote with regard to,

00:23:13   I think it was an Ask ATP question,

00:23:15   when do you go to Apple Notes,

00:23:16   when do you go to a flat file, et cetera, et cetera,

00:23:18   and Ben wrote, "There's absolutely middle ground

00:23:20   between Notes, StoreEverything, and an inaccessible database,

00:23:23   but it syncs and plain text files."

00:23:25   Ben writes, "I use notational velocity on the desktop

00:23:27   or more accurately in v-alt,

00:23:29   which has a setting to store Notes as plain text files

00:23:32   in the location of your choice.

00:23:33   At the same time, in v-alt,

00:23:34   use the simple Note as the syncing service,

00:23:36   which gets me all of my notes on the web or on iOS,

00:23:38   so I have the best of both worlds,

00:23:39   sync and plain text access/backup.

00:23:42   I do a time switch for Notes app-rich functionality,

00:23:44   particularly in terms of embedding photos and whatnot,

00:23:46   but I consider easy access to my data and availability

00:23:48   on any computing platform to be table stakes

00:23:49   for any data that I want on a permanent basis."

00:23:52   We don't have it in the show notes,

00:23:53   but Ben had said something about how, you know,

00:23:56   it's, he understands the trade-off with regard

00:23:59   to using simple Note as the syncing service,

00:24:01   so he doesn't put anything like super sensitive

00:24:03   or private or whatever into any of these notes,

00:24:06   but it was an interesting approach

00:24:07   to get a middle of the road, like he said.

00:24:09   - Yeah, there was another story that flew by recently,

00:24:12   although I think it was a repeat of the same story

00:24:14   from maybe years ago, about the security of,

00:24:16   quote-unquote, encrypted Notes in the Apple Notes app.

00:24:20   It uses a database behind the scenes,

00:24:21   and apparently, you know how like,

00:24:23   when you're looking through your notes,

00:24:24   the notes are represented in a list

00:24:26   by basically the first line in the note,

00:24:29   and when you encrypt a note,

00:24:30   apparently that first line is still visible

00:24:33   in some data store or somewhere.

00:24:35   Anyway, if you're relying on the security of your notes,

00:24:39   such that no one, you know, if you take a note

00:24:41   and then encrypt it, and then someone grabs your Mac

00:24:43   and runs a bunch of forensic tools

00:24:45   and finds a SQLite database and rummages through it,

00:24:47   they may be able to find snippets of unencrypted data

00:24:50   from that note, which is kind of bad,

00:24:53   but, you know, probably not the end of the world.

00:24:55   All that I have to say is if you have something

00:24:57   that you really care about the security of,

00:24:59   it's best to actually use a security-focused application

00:25:03   to store it rather than just an app that is like a Notes app

00:25:06   but also happens to have an encrypt feature.

00:25:08   - And then finally, Satheesh Paul Leo writes,

00:25:10   "I really enjoyed the segment where you talked

00:25:12   "about using hyphenated words.

00:25:15   "It made me realize how much more I need to learn

00:25:16   "about the English language.

00:25:17   "I found this helpful and wanted to pass it along."

00:25:20   And this is a link to developers.google.com,

00:25:23   which is a post called Just Enough Grammar.

00:25:27   - Yeah, well, these things are great.

00:25:28   Like, sort of, they're not trying to teach you everything.

00:25:31   I mean, you know, English language is ridiculous and huge

00:25:33   and has all sorts of strange things,

00:25:35   but you just need a little bit.

00:25:36   You just need enough to know what you don't know,

00:25:39   because then on a case-by-case basis when you're writing,

00:25:41   if you're aware of, sort of, the lay of the land,

00:25:44   like you come across some construct in your writing,

00:25:46   you're like, "I don't know what to write here,

00:25:48   "but I know this is an area of frequent problems

00:25:52   "or there is an issue here,

00:25:53   "or that this is something I should pay attention to."

00:25:55   At that point, you're armed with enough knowledge

00:25:58   to just go Google the answer.

00:25:59   Okay, in this exact sentence structure,

00:26:01   with this exact word, what am I supposed to do?

00:26:02   If you don't know that,

00:26:03   if you don't have that Just Enough Grammar baseline,

00:26:05   you won't even know that there's a thing to know there,

00:26:07   and you'll just, you know, if you don't know hyphens exist

00:26:09   or what they might be used for,

00:26:10   you'll just never think about them.

00:26:12   If you know they're used kind of in this context

00:26:14   for this reason, when you're writing,

00:26:16   you may come across something and be like,

00:26:17   "Wait a second, is that one of those places I use hyphens?"

00:26:20   You're not gonna know the answer.

00:26:21   You know, it's always gonna be tricky.

00:26:22   There's all sorts of special cases and everything,

00:26:23   but at least you know that it's a thing.

00:26:26   So this Just Enough Grammar page

00:26:29   and similar sort of crash courses for the basics of grammar

00:26:33   very often focused on, like, tech writing,

00:26:34   just so you can, like, write sensible,

00:26:37   coherent documentation for your code even.

00:26:40   It's well worth the effort to just, you know,

00:26:44   get Just Enough Knowledge to be dangerous.

00:26:45   I would say Just Enough Knowledge to know what to Google,

00:26:47   'cause that's all you need.

00:26:48   No one really knows all these answers

00:26:50   except for, you know, some, you know,

00:26:52   very obscure book editor who's been doing it a million years.

00:26:56   All you gotta know is what to Google.

00:26:58   - We are sponsored this week by Collide.

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00:27:18   the current accepted practice is to buy an MDM

00:27:21   and then use it to lock down everyone's devices

00:27:23   so users can only do, quote, "safe things."

00:27:26   And the result of this is that your users become frustrated.

00:27:29   They don't understand why you don't trust them.

00:27:31   They don't understand why the device's features

00:27:33   and capabilities are turned off.

00:27:34   It's really annoying.

00:27:35   Do this often enough, and they'll start just using

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00:28:47   - How do you back up a Synology?

00:28:53   And the reason I ask is, we had talked

00:28:55   just a little while ago about CrashPlan

00:28:57   and how I really, really don't like it.

00:29:00   But the advantage of CrashPlan is that it is $10 a month

00:29:03   for one computer for whatever plan I'm on right now.

00:29:06   $10 a month for me to back up.

00:29:08   I think my backup set is something

00:29:09   like 13 terabytes right now.

00:29:11   Now, admittedly, that backup set includes the iMac Pro.

00:29:15   Admittedly, that backup includes a bunch of stuff

00:29:17   on the Synology that I could probably pare down

00:29:20   and weed out.

00:29:22   And so I looked before the show,

00:29:24   I was doing a little preparation because I'm allowed,

00:29:26   because I'm not John, and it turns out

00:29:28   my media folder on my Synology,

00:29:30   which is the thing I care most about,

00:29:31   or at least the thing I think I care most about,

00:29:33   is eight terabytes of the 13 terabytes.

00:29:37   So I was looking at what are my options

00:29:40   for backing up the Synology?

00:29:41   And the most obvious one, the one that everyone recommends,

00:29:45   and for good reason, because everything I've read

00:29:47   is that it's excellent, is Backblaze B2.

00:29:50   So this is their bigger, longer term,

00:29:53   if I understand it right,

00:29:55   storage that's really for this kind of a use.

00:29:59   It's designed to compete with a bunch of stuff

00:30:02   that's of similar vein, right?

00:30:03   You're just gonna put something away for a long time

00:30:05   and probably not need to restore anything from it,

00:30:08   if ever or not frequently, if you do at all.

00:30:12   And I was looking at it, well, and the thing of it is,

00:30:13   is that Backblaze B2 is $70 a month for 13 terabytes.

00:30:17   A month, it's $40 a month for eight terabytes,

00:30:19   and these are all rough estimations, give or take a bit.

00:30:24   But that means it would take me like three and a half years

00:30:28   of B2 to break even with just buying a whole new Synology,

00:30:33   filling it with drives, and then moving this one

00:30:35   to my dad's house or something like that,

00:30:37   which is far enough away that it's not anywhere close,

00:30:42   and just mirroring the darn Synology from here to there.

00:30:47   And this is kind of a call for recommendations

00:30:50   from the listeners and from the two of you.

00:30:53   - Yeah, what about us?

00:30:53   What is one do with this?

00:30:57   Like, and the other thing I've heard decent about

00:30:59   is Glacier, I think it's called from Amazon.

00:31:01   - Oh, no, no, no, no.

00:31:03   - Okay, okay, well this is what I wanna know.

00:31:05   And the other thing is--

00:31:05   - Oh, Glacier's terrible.

00:31:07   - So the other priority I have is I want something

00:31:08   that's as close to turnkey as possible,

00:31:10   and that B2 very much counts as,

00:31:12   because B2 is built into the Synology software,

00:31:16   and I can just say, hey, please back yourself up to B2 now,

00:31:18   and if I'm willing to throw money at this problem,

00:31:20   which I'm getting ever more willing to do,

00:31:22   then that is an acceptable answer, and a very easy answer.

00:31:26   But what am I not considering?

00:31:28   Like, should I just pony up literally $3,000

00:31:31   to bring a new version of my current Synology into my house

00:31:35   and move this one to Dad's house?

00:31:37   Is there something else I'm just not thinking of?

00:31:40   - Well, we had this long discussion last time

00:31:41   about how maybe you don't need all that media.

00:31:43   (laughing)

00:31:45   You don't need to be storing all that.

00:31:46   - That's fair.

00:31:47   - You might be able to access through streaming services

00:31:50   and so on and so forth.

00:31:51   I really feel like, especially,

00:31:53   you mentioned this is the media

00:31:56   I think I care about the most, but it's not really.

00:31:58   I know you spend a long time organizing everything,

00:32:00   and it's good to have a collection,

00:32:01   but you care so much more about your family photos

00:32:03   than you do about any of that media, right?

00:32:05   - Well, that's a subset of that eight terabytes,

00:32:07   but yes, what you just said is accurate.

00:32:09   - Right, but it's a tiny amount.

00:32:11   It's less than a terabyte of that as photos.

00:32:13   - I think it's about a terabyte, but still,

00:32:14   I'm quibbling over minor things.

00:32:16   Your point is still completely fair.

00:32:18   - Yeah, so one way to save money is to--

00:32:21   - Do not back that up.

00:32:22   - No, don't not back it up, but decide

00:32:25   what part of it you really want to back up, right?

00:32:30   So I feel like the most important thing

00:32:32   is the metadata and the database, the Plex database,

00:32:35   which is tiny, right?

00:32:36   Any organization you've done,

00:32:37   any custom poster images you've done,

00:32:39   maybe your watch counts or your progress,

00:32:42   or that is the stuff that you've invested time

00:32:45   in dealing with, right?

00:32:47   The actual media files behind the scenes,

00:32:50   if they disappeared, you can probably replace them, right?

00:32:53   Many of them, at least.

00:32:57   - Some of it, yeah, but not all of it.

00:32:58   - And so what I would do is I would choose

00:33:01   what subset of that you actually want to back up.

00:33:03   If you want to save money,

00:33:04   I feel like you could cut your storage in half

00:33:07   just by being judicious about which media do I want to back up

00:33:10   versus which media do I not want to back up,

00:33:12   and that would involve having to categorize things

00:33:14   in some way or like, I know it's annoying,

00:33:16   but that's a lot of data,

00:33:18   and if you're gonna have somebody who's not you

00:33:23   store 13 terabytes of data for you,

00:33:25   there's no way around that being expensive

00:33:28   or a hassle or both.

00:33:29   Like, there's no magic solution that's gonna be like,

00:33:32   I have a way for you to do that for three cents

00:33:34   or $5 a month, it's not gonna happen.

00:33:36   Like, you're already doing that.

00:33:37   - I have a way to do it.

00:33:38   - You're taking advantage of it the best you can

00:33:39   with the crash plan thing,

00:33:41   or if you did like iSCSI with the back place, you know,

00:33:44   that is the cheapest way to do it,

00:33:45   but both of those things are sort of not using the services

00:33:49   for their intended purposes and really pushing the limits.

00:33:53   - Yeah, I hear you.

00:33:54   - That's a simpler solution.

00:33:55   - Yeah, I do wanna, I very much wanna hear Marco's answer,

00:33:57   but just to address a couple of things you said,

00:33:59   your point is overall very fair,

00:34:02   but the thing I just really,

00:34:04   I really don't wanna lose any of this media,

00:34:07   and I think the reason I'm harping on this so much

00:34:09   is because for the stuff that's on the Synology,

00:34:12   that is the only place it,

00:34:14   well, with the exception of pictures,

00:34:15   that is the only place it exists.

00:34:17   So like all of my TV shows and movies and things like that,

00:34:20   well, some of them actually,

00:34:21   I do have Blu-ray sitting downstairs,

00:34:23   but for the purposes of this discussion,

00:34:25   that's the only place it exists.

00:34:26   It's there in crash plan,

00:34:27   and so I'm so scared that if this Synology just fries

00:34:32   and I can't salvage the drives for some crazy reason,

00:34:35   that all of that media just goes up in a puff of smoke.

00:34:37   Again, the pictures are different, but--

00:34:39   - The other good thing about the media stuff

00:34:41   is it's basically immutable.

00:34:43   Like the media files themselves once they're there

00:34:46   don't change, right?

00:34:47   So you can, if you wanna pinch more pennies,

00:34:50   I know Marco is making groaning noises about Glacier,

00:34:53   but there are various temperature storage options in S3

00:34:57   that can let you hold a bunch of data

00:35:02   that you don't need access to

00:35:03   and is not going to change for less money than B2 maybe.

00:35:07   I mean, you have to look at the pricing.

00:35:08   Glacier is a pain in the butt

00:35:09   because to get anything out of it is like pulling teeth,

00:35:11   and maybe that's acceptable

00:35:13   if you really just like, again,

00:35:15   if it's a super duper emergency backup type thing,

00:35:18   but that's, you know,

00:35:19   paring down the data you're backing up is one way,

00:35:21   and then using slower storage with the knowledge

00:35:24   that you don't need to access that.

00:35:25   It's like write once and read never, right?

00:35:28   - Yeah, yeah. - And that it doesn't change.

00:35:30   Now, the difficulty is trying to use backup software.

00:35:33   A lot of backup software doesn't expect that scenario.

00:35:35   It expects to be able to sort of crawl your data

00:35:39   and then confirm that it's backed up and diff the two things

00:35:41   and doing that with Glacier is gonna be unfriendly probably

00:35:44   because it doesn't expect that type of thing.

00:35:46   But we know that the nature of your backup is

00:35:48   I'm gonna back up these terabytes of data

00:35:50   and they're never gonna change in the backup.

00:35:51   They're just gonna sit there unmodified

00:35:53   for years and years, never being updated.

00:35:55   And so those can be fairly distant, you know,

00:35:59   access time-wise.

00:36:00   You just need a piece of software that understands that.

00:36:03   But this is all like all ways to pinch pennies.

00:36:05   Can I get my bill down to 50%?

00:36:08   Like that's the best case scenario

00:36:09   and you're still paying $30 a month.

00:36:10   So.

00:36:11   - Yeah, I agree.

00:36:12   And I promise Marco, I'm gonna give you a chance, I promise.

00:36:14   But the other thing that occurred to me

00:36:16   as I was talking to you guys is

00:36:18   one of the backup strategies that I have is that

00:36:20   a super duper clone of the iMac on a physical hard drive,

00:36:24   that you know, one of the portable USB drives,

00:36:26   and a physical clone of my entire photo library

00:36:30   on a separate physical hard drive, you know, a USB drive,

00:36:33   that gets, you hand it,

00:36:35   yes, I see my parents at least once a month,

00:36:37   usually twice a month,

00:36:38   that gets handed to mom and dad at some time

00:36:41   after the beginning of the month,

00:36:42   and then they bring it back

00:36:43   right around the end of the month.

00:36:45   I'll update both.

00:36:46   - But why do they need to bring it back?

00:36:47   All you're ever doing is adding to it.

00:36:49   You know what I'm saying?

00:36:50   Like you need to implement your own system

00:36:51   of write-only media, where you write a bunch of stuff to it

00:36:55   and then it gets stored, and then, you know, anyway.

00:36:58   Marco's solution is gonna be to get a 14 terabyte hard drive.

00:37:00   But anyway.

00:37:01   - Well, and that's exactly what I'm driving,

00:37:02   that's exactly what I was gonna say is that

00:37:04   it occurred to me as I'm talking to you guys that

00:37:05   I'm filling my Synology,

00:37:08   well, let me back up a half step.

00:37:09   Several of the drives in my Synology,

00:37:11   which are Western Digital, whatever, the NAS Red's,

00:37:13   I think, Western Digital Red's,

00:37:14   which are whatever it came with

00:37:17   literally six years ago, almost seven,

00:37:19   about half of the drives in there

00:37:21   are the six-ish year old drives.

00:37:23   And I have been replacing them bit by bit,

00:37:26   but it occurred to me that, you know,

00:37:28   I am really playing with fire,

00:37:30   having, I think I have three six year old drives

00:37:32   in there right now,

00:37:33   and I really, really should try to get those,

00:37:38   you know, replaced sooner rather than later.

00:37:40   And as I'm replacing them, you know,

00:37:42   I'm putting more pressure on every drive that remains,

00:37:45   and so I'm really, really, really playing with fire.

00:37:47   But it occurred to me as I'm replacing them,

00:37:48   I'm swapping from three terabytes to 10 terabyte,

00:37:51   and I just told you my entire backup set

00:37:53   is like 13 terabytes.

00:37:56   So presumably, I could get one of these humongous,

00:37:59   what are these, two and a half inch drives?

00:38:01   It doesn't matter.

00:38:02   It's three humongous physical platter drives.

00:38:04   - Three and a half inch.

00:38:04   They have 14 terabyte, three and a half inch drives.

00:38:07   - They have 16 terabyte drives now.

00:38:09   - So you see where this is going,

00:38:11   is I could add that to the physical package

00:38:13   that I'm transferring back and forth to dad,

00:38:15   you know, and just give that to mom and dad once a month

00:38:18   and have them bring it back,

00:38:19   and I do a quick update,

00:38:20   and then send it back to their house,

00:38:21   and that's, honestly,

00:38:23   that's probably gonna be the best solution.

00:38:25   All right, so Marco, with all this in mind,

00:38:26   tell me what I need to be doing,

00:38:28   'cause I have not hit the right answer apparently.

00:38:29   Okay, so this all goes back to,

00:38:32   the problem you have is that CrashPlan

00:38:36   is the only online backup service

00:38:38   that will back up unlimited space,

00:38:40   including network shares for a low price.

00:38:43   - Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

00:38:45   - And most of your data lives on a Synology,

00:38:48   so the only computer that you have

00:38:50   where that data is local on local disks is the Synology.

00:38:54   I get around this with my stupid iSCSI setup,

00:38:56   which I would not recommend to anybody,

00:38:57   and as soon as any part of it breaks,

00:38:59   I'm not replacing it, but--

00:39:01   - Right.

00:39:02   - The real solution here is to take advantage

00:39:06   of the other backup service that has way better software,

00:39:10   is a frequent sponsor of our show,

00:39:12   and that will back up any drive

00:39:15   connected to your computer locally,

00:39:18   which is Backblaze.

00:39:19   And the way you switch to Backblaze

00:39:22   is by making this data local to a computer

00:39:25   that runs an OS that Backblaze clients will run on.

00:39:30   You already have one, we already mentioned it,

00:39:32   it's the Mac Mini that you just turned on.

00:39:34   So the way to fix this problem, the simplest way possible,

00:39:39   is to buy a giant hard drive,

00:39:41   yes, they come up to 16 terabytes now,

00:39:44   buy a giant hard drive or two,

00:39:46   connect them as local disks to the Mac Mini,

00:39:50   have the Mac Mini share them on the network itself,

00:39:52   if it wants to, and have Backblaze back 'em up.

00:39:56   And then you don't have to do this craziness

00:39:58   with your parents, you have online backup,

00:40:01   you can even put two of them in RAID 0.

00:40:04   You have online backup and drives last pretty long

00:40:06   these days, like you could literally just do

00:40:09   two external drives or one giant external drive,

00:40:12   plug it into your Mac Mini, and have Backblaze back it up

00:40:16   for the five bucks or six bucks a month that it is.

00:40:18   That's it, and it's the very,

00:40:21   and you know what, I know that you no longer drive

00:40:25   a white BMW, and I know that your identity

00:40:28   is being challenged here.

00:40:30   I'm not gonna tell you to give up Plex,

00:40:32   I'm not gonna tell you to cut back your library,

00:40:34   but I will tell you, retire the Synology at this point,

00:40:37   because it is old, it is not providing you

00:40:40   the computing power that you want for things like Plex,

00:40:42   because it's old hardware, and it was made

00:40:46   right before they did a whole bunch of those

00:40:47   transcoding acceleration stuff, so it's old,

00:40:51   it's full of, by today's standards, small hard drives,

00:40:55   it's probably costing you a decent amount

00:40:57   in just electricity every month, so just plug in

00:41:02   an external hard drive to the Mac Mini,

00:41:04   because you have six wonderful years

00:41:06   of incredible hard drive capacity expansion

00:41:09   that you can take advantage of now.

00:41:10   Like, the technology has gotten better for spinning disks,

00:41:12   they're way bigger now, and they're not that much money

00:41:15   for very giant ones, so just do that,

00:41:19   and I think that right there is your solution.

00:41:23   Just switch to a local disk, connect it to that Mac Mini,

00:41:27   make that Mac Mini run all the software

00:41:29   that your Synology was previously running,

00:41:30   like just use the Mac clients of these things,

00:41:32   use Mac Plex, use the Mac sharing stuff, whatever it is,

00:41:36   like, you might give up a few things

00:41:38   that your Synology was doing that were kind of cool

00:41:41   that you occasionally used, but overall,

00:41:44   I think this is a better solution, and it is way simpler,

00:41:48   and while it requires a bit of investment up front,

00:41:50   first of all, it's way cheaper than if you wanted

00:41:52   to replace your Synology, it's way cheaper

00:41:55   if you need to replace a bunch of the drives

00:41:56   in your Synology, and it's probably cheaper to operate,

00:42:01   you know, with electricity and stuff,

00:42:03   and it's definitely way better on the backup front,

00:42:05   because then you can simply use any Mac backup software,

00:42:09   so you can use Backblaze for their flat fee,

00:42:11   you can do what I do and use Arc, which is fantastic,

00:42:14   and I actually, I use Arc backing up to Backblaze B2 storage,

00:42:18   I just kind of prefer the Arc UI for certain things,

00:42:21   but like, you have so many more options then,

00:42:24   because you're running what appears to backup software

00:42:26   to be a regular consumer operating system

00:42:28   on a regular PC/Mac, you know,

00:42:30   but then you have options then,

00:42:32   and you have this one great option,

00:42:34   which is Backblaze Unlimited,

00:42:36   and that, I think, solves your problem

00:42:38   in a pretty simple, elegant way,

00:42:41   and you can retire a Synology.

00:42:43   - I do wonder how long Backblaze is gonna allow

00:42:46   these type of things to go on.

00:42:48   I saw recently a tweet where Backblaze was sad

00:42:52   that someone was using their service

00:42:54   to backup many large numbers of terabytes

00:42:56   directly connected to their computer.

00:42:58   I don't know if they were using

00:42:59   the iSCSI trick that you're using,

00:43:00   but similarly, like, it's meant to be

00:43:02   a single computer thing if you're backing up 13 terabytes.

00:43:05   I know hard drive sizes are increasing,

00:43:07   but still, it's kind of like an outlier,

00:43:09   so Casey may be ruining it for everybody

00:43:11   if someday Backblaze says, "You know what?

00:43:13   "It used to be unlimited, but a few people

00:43:15   "have been abusing that privilege,

00:43:17   "so now there's a cap of 10 terabytes."

00:43:19   - Even then, like, what's great about this solution

00:43:22   is that right now, you can do it right now,

00:43:24   it's very simple, and simple, in this case,

00:43:28   is a big benefit here, like,

00:43:30   making this not a convoluted, complicated,

00:43:34   fragile setup, like, just make it a very simple thing,

00:43:37   and right now, it works.

00:43:38   Like, in the future, who knows,

00:43:40   but right now, it will work,

00:43:42   and in the future, if you have to spend a bit more

00:43:44   on backing up all your media files, oh well.

00:43:46   Like, you can also, you can kind of do the exercise

00:43:48   of like, all right, so of all those eight terabytes

00:43:51   of what's probably what, like movies and TV shows mostly,

00:43:54   right, so like, of all that, what percentage of that

00:43:57   can you just re-rip if you lose it all?

00:44:01   And then, whatever percentage of it that, you know,

00:44:03   fell off trucks or was not available in the US,

00:44:06   or whatever the case may be, like,

00:44:08   how hard would it be to either re-download it from somewhere,

00:44:12   or buy it all legally?

00:44:13   (laughs)

00:44:14   And what would that cost, versus what it will cost

00:44:17   if you have to pay somebody per gigabyte

00:44:19   to back this up for, you know, indefinitely,

00:44:21   like, what are you paying over time for that,

00:44:24   if you have to pay one of those $70 a month, you know, fees?

00:44:27   What is that costing you over time,

00:44:29   versus what would it cost to actually just replace all this

00:44:31   if you lost it?

00:44:32   So do that math if that comes up,

00:44:34   but honestly, you can avoid all that entirely right now

00:44:37   by just plugging in a giant hard drive

00:44:38   to your Mac Mini and using Backblaze.

00:44:40   - Yeah, I am not in a position that I am willing

00:44:42   to give up my beloved Synology,

00:44:43   and I agree with everything you said on paper,

00:44:46   but it also does some things that I know I could do

00:44:49   on my Mac Mini, but I like the way the Synology works,

00:44:52   I have a very good workflow for it,

00:44:53   I don't wanna mess with that,

00:44:55   but I take your point, and I agree with you,

00:44:58   that getting one of these, like, 400 or $500,

00:45:00   16 terabyte drives, and just physically hooking it up

00:45:03   to the Mac Mini, even if I just run, like,

00:45:05   an R sync or equivalent, and pull everything off

00:45:08   of the Synology onto that drive,

00:45:09   and then Backblaze is now backing that up

00:45:11   as a regular old computer, that is, far and away,

00:45:15   a much better answer than anything else

00:45:16   I've come up with so far, so I already like

00:45:18   where this is going.

00:45:19   - Why are you pulling it off the Synology?

00:45:20   Why don't you just leave it on,

00:45:21   put it on the hard drive as your primary location?

00:45:23   - Oh yeah, or you can do things like move the eight terabytes

00:45:25   of Plex data to the Mac Mini, you know,

00:45:28   giant hard drive option, and leave other stuff

00:45:31   on the Synology, which would be way smaller.

00:45:33   - Stuff that you might care about data redundancy,

00:45:35   so you can redo your RAID scheme to add more redundancy

00:45:39   on the Synology and put your photos on there,

00:45:41   so you have protection against double drive failures

00:45:43   or something, you know what I mean?

00:45:44   - Yeah, I hear you.

00:45:45   I think what I'm looking for now is the least disruptive way

00:45:49   to improve my world, and I think, Marco, you hit it,

00:45:51   that it's just getting a big friggin' drive,

00:45:54   at least for now, anyway.

00:45:56   - Yeah, 'cause they're really big these days.

00:45:58   - Yeah, I mean, and I don't know that would work forever,

00:46:00   but certainly for now, I mean, if I got a 16 terabyte drive,

00:46:03   I am well over, or well, I have at least three terabytes

00:46:07   of headroom, and so as much as I am slowly filling up

00:46:11   this Synology over time, first of all,

00:46:13   there's certainly stuff I can get rid of and call,

00:46:15   absolutely, without a shadow of a doubt,

00:46:17   and secondly, you know, that's plenty of extra space,

00:46:20   or plenty of headroom that I wouldn't have to worry about

00:46:23   at any time soon, and presumably, there's no reason

00:46:26   I couldn't just attach another one, if necessary.

00:46:28   - Right, that's, like, once you get into this habit,

00:46:30   like, you know, if you get a fancy external drive enclosure

00:46:33   that has, like, built-in RAID, or, like, you know,

00:46:36   these giant metal boxes with, you know, multiple connectors,

00:46:38   those get expensive.

00:46:39   - Or a power supply that doesn't fail.

00:46:42   - Yeah, but, like, you know, single drive enclosures

00:46:44   are basically free, like, they're really cheap, and--

00:46:47   - They're really cheap, but they're also kinda garbage-y.

00:46:49   - All right, well, anyway, like, if you want,

00:46:51   you can invest in a nice big one, but, like, you know,

00:46:53   if you keep it relatively simple, you can say,

00:46:56   you can buy a, you know, 12 or 16 terabyte drive,

00:47:00   and say, this is the most I'm going to keep,

00:47:03   and when you need space on it, you force yourself

00:47:06   to go delete something that you're not gonna need anymore.

00:47:08   You know, that's another option.

00:47:09   That's honestly not a bad solution,

00:47:11   because you probably don't need to keep more than 16 terabytes

00:47:14   of various media files that are, you know,

00:47:16   mostly, like, movies and TV shows, like,

00:47:18   you probably can get rid of a lot of that.

00:47:20   So, you know, maybe capping it at a certain size

00:47:23   that is one drive, which keeps everything a lot simpler,

00:47:26   maybe that's all for the best.

00:47:29   - Yeah, I was talking about potentially abusing backplays

00:47:31   by backing up so much, but it occurs to me

00:47:33   that when my additional hard drive arrives,

00:47:35   I'll have 16 terabytes inside my Mac Pro,

00:47:38   so they can't really complain I'm abusing it by,

00:47:40   you're supposed to just back up one system,

00:47:42   it is one system, but these are all inside the computer,

00:47:44   and I can fit eight more drives in there,

00:47:45   so watch out, backplays.

00:47:47   - To get ahead of the email that we will receive,

00:47:50   and to answer J Stretch in the chat,

00:47:54   just off the top of my head, things that I want

00:47:56   to keep on my Synology, I absolutely acknowledge and believe

00:48:00   that a lot of this, if not all of it,

00:48:01   could be done on the Mac Mini, I am not debating that.

00:48:04   I like it on the Synology, I want to keep it

00:48:06   on the Synology, it makes me happy being on the Synology.

00:48:09   And I wrote a post about this, I'll link in the show notes,

00:48:11   that talks about a lot of this stuff,

00:48:12   but things like VPN server, the Docker container

00:48:16   for Homebridge, obviously I can do that on the Mac Mini,

00:48:19   I like it on the Synology, I like it over there,

00:48:21   off by its lonesome.

00:48:23   What is some of the downloading torrents,

00:48:26   if I ever do that, or stuff from news groups,

00:48:29   if I were to ever do that, which obviously I wouldn't.

00:48:30   - No.

00:48:31   - Your Dropbox replacement thingy.

00:48:32   - My Dropbox replacement is the biggest one of all,

00:48:35   because for those who haven't been keeping up,

00:48:36   I am almost entirely off of Dropbox,

00:48:39   and I use Synology Drive as a replacement.

00:48:41   I'm sure there's something I could put on the Mac Mini

00:48:44   that would be an equivalent, but again,

00:48:47   I'm not looking to disrupt my entire world,

00:48:49   I am looking to disrupt my backup strategy,

00:48:52   and I think Marco, if it's that I just sneaker net

00:48:56   a 16 terabyte hard drive to my dad,

00:48:59   if it's that I put it on the Mac Mini--

00:49:00   - No, I'm saying you can stop that.

00:49:01   Use online backup. - No, I agree, I agree.

00:49:03   - That's what it's for. - No, no, I agree.

00:49:04   I'm just saying that even if I did that,

00:49:07   which I agree with you is not the best answer,

00:49:09   my point is that that's still a much better answer

00:49:11   than paying $500 a year to backblaze B2,

00:49:15   or at least it's a better answer for me.

00:49:16   But again, I couldn't agree more

00:49:19   that I think the best-est answer

00:49:20   is to just stick a big, fat hard drive on the Mac Mini,

00:49:24   and I just kind of like having the Synology

00:49:27   being the one source of truth for my data

00:49:29   that just makes me happy that I know it's all right there.

00:49:32   It makes me happy in no small reason

00:49:34   because if, God forbid, the house went on fire,

00:49:36   I would know, just grab the Synology, after the kids,

00:49:39   grab the Synology and it has all the stuff I need,

00:49:42   which is silly, I know.

00:49:43   - You know what's a lot smaller?

00:49:44   A single hard drive. (laughs)

00:49:46   - That's true, that's true.

00:49:47   - The Synology, it's like a mid-tower computer,

00:49:50   full of hard drives, it's heavy and huge. (laughs)

00:49:53   - I understand, no, I'm with you.

00:49:54   But my point is just that I like having the Synology

00:49:58   be the center of my storage world.

00:50:00   It makes me happy, it doesn't have to make sense

00:50:02   to be the listener or you, Marco Arment,

00:50:04   but it just, it makes me happy,

00:50:05   and that's the way I would like to keep it.

00:50:07   But be it a sneaker net, be it just connecting it

00:50:10   to the Mac Mini, which again, I think is the best-est answer,

00:50:12   one way or another, just putting a big, fat hard drive

00:50:15   somewhere and duplicating all my data on it,

00:50:18   and that's the difference between what I'm saying

00:50:20   and what you're saying.

00:50:20   I would want that to be a redundant copy of all this data.

00:50:23   You're saying just make it the canonical data.

00:50:25   And again-- - Yeah, make it

00:50:25   the primary storage. - You're probably right.

00:50:27   Yeah, yeah, you're probably right.

00:50:28   And on paper, I think you are right,

00:50:30   and if I was a sane individual,

00:50:32   I would do what you're saying.

00:50:33   But because I'm just weird like this,

00:50:35   I think I would have that as a redundant copy.

00:50:37   And then yeah, if that gets sent up to the cloud,

00:50:39   that's the best of all answers.

00:50:40   If for some reason I don't do that or that doesn't work,

00:50:42   which I don't know why it wouldn't,

00:50:44   then I could sneaker net it to Dad,

00:50:45   and it's still an improvement over the world I have today

00:50:47   where I'm relying on crash plan, which I friggin' hate.

00:50:50   So I am glad, I hope this isn't a waste of time

00:50:52   for everyone else listening,

00:50:53   but I'm glad we talked about it

00:50:54   'cause this is a much better plan of action

00:50:57   than I had before.

00:50:58   And just to reiterate, if I were to replace the Synology,

00:51:02   I would want to take the one I have and stick it at Dad's,

00:51:05   and so I can't take the drives out of this one

00:51:07   and put it in the new one, 'cause I would want,

00:51:08   again, I would want a redundant Synology.

00:51:11   And to do that the way I would want to,

00:51:12   which again, this is all my own choices, is over $3,000.

00:51:16   That is a lot more money than a $500 16 terabyte hard drive.

00:51:21   So I think, Marco, you hit the nail on the head.

00:51:24   - Over time, the threshold for like,

00:51:26   do you need a giant NAS box,

00:51:29   goes up with how high your storage needs are.

00:51:31   Over time, that threshold goes up

00:51:33   because hard drives get bigger.

00:51:35   And you would never recommend in 2020

00:51:38   that somebody who needs to store four terabytes of data

00:51:41   get a NAS, because hard drives or SSDs

00:51:44   can store that locally really easily,

00:51:45   and so if it's just gonna be a few terabytes,

00:51:48   there's no need to have a giant drive enclosure

00:51:51   and a whole second thing to maintain

00:51:53   and update and everything else.

00:51:54   And I think for you, when you first got the Synology,

00:51:58   you were within the range of like,

00:52:00   okay, you have enough data, it's reasonable

00:52:02   to need a big multi-drive thing.

00:52:04   But since then, the drives have gotten so big,

00:52:08   and the backup situation has become more important,

00:52:10   and a few things have changed about it,

00:52:11   and so now I think you're at the point now

00:52:14   where if you were starting from scratch today,

00:52:17   we would never say you should get a NAS,

00:52:20   because while there are people who still need NAS boxes

00:52:24   because they have massive storage needs,

00:52:26   your storage needs no longer qualify.

00:52:28   You are no longer one of those people.

00:52:30   And this is why I don't think

00:52:32   almost anybody should get a NAS.

00:52:34   I think the time for them is mostly behind us,

00:52:37   and most people don't need them.

00:52:40   And I think the number of people who need them

00:52:42   is going down over time.

00:52:44   - I think 13 terabytes is still close to that territory.

00:52:46   For Casey, I don't know,

00:52:48   because he has this incredible tolerance

00:52:49   for terrible noise very close to him,

00:52:52   but for me, the biggest advantage to the NAS

00:52:55   is it's in the basement.

00:52:57   I don't hear it.

00:52:58   And if I had 13 terabytes of media,

00:53:01   like I was just talking about keeping my hard drive

00:53:03   spun down inside my big Mac Pro,

00:53:06   I can have 16 terabytes of storage in there,

00:53:08   but the storage that is not on an SSD,

00:53:10   I do not want spinning.

00:53:12   I want them not spinning and unmounted.

00:53:15   And you can't do that if you actually need that data.

00:53:18   Like if my photo collection was on spinning media,

00:53:21   it would not be tenable.

00:53:22   I don't have to mount it every time I launch photos.

00:53:24   My photos are on my SSDs.

00:53:25   I don't have to deal with that.

00:53:26   But if you have 13 terabytes of data

00:53:28   that you need online all the time,

00:53:30   you better be ready to deal with

00:53:34   the sound of spinning disks fairly close to you,

00:53:37   or you get a NAS.

00:53:39   - Yeah, and again, I love my Synology,

00:53:42   so darn much.

00:53:43   I love it.

00:53:44   It's the sort of thing I would have never spent

00:53:45   the money on at the time.

00:53:46   And now that it's a part of my world,

00:53:48   I cannot, today anyway, I can't get rid of it.

00:53:50   And I'm not arguing with you, Marco.

00:53:52   You're so right in so many ways.

00:53:54   But it has become the center of my computing world,

00:53:58   and I like it there because it makes me happy.

00:54:01   It is not, knock on glass, it has never failed me.

00:54:04   It has always worked.

00:54:06   It has never caused me problems.

00:54:08   It's done better than my iMac Pro has.

00:54:11   And I've had this Synology for six years.

00:54:12   I've had the iMac Pro for six weeks.

00:54:14   But nevertheless, your point is, again,

00:54:17   is certainly very fair, if not correct,

00:54:20   that for a normal person, this is not necessary.

00:54:23   But there are many like it, but this one is mine.

00:54:25   That's a reference, Sean.

00:54:26   - And if you wanna throw money at the problem

00:54:28   and you have a Mac Pro, you can get one of those cards

00:54:30   that you can put four four terabyte SSDs on,

00:54:32   or four two terabyte SSDs,

00:54:34   and you can get two of those cards.

00:54:35   You can have 16 terabytes of internal solid state storage,

00:54:38   then you solve the noise problem and the access problem,

00:54:41   and the storage space problem,

00:54:42   and it only costs you probably what, 20, 30, 40 grand?

00:54:45   - And the back plays, and back plays will back it up.

00:54:47   - Yeah, he's like, look, it's one computer.

00:54:49   - Yeah, you spend 40 grand once

00:54:51   and you can save 70 bucks a month.

00:54:52   (laughing)

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00:56:51   (upbeat music)

00:56:53   - As we record this, it is the evening of March 4th

00:56:57   and WWDC is still a thing, in theory.

00:57:02   - Well, it hasn't been announced yet.

00:57:05   WWDC is never a thing until it is announced.

00:57:08   Previous WWDC was announced, we attended,

00:57:11   and then it ended.

00:57:11   And at that point, WWDC ceases to exist

00:57:14   until there is a future announcement that says,

00:57:16   hey, guess what?

00:57:17   We're doing WWDC and here are the dates.

00:57:19   So right now we're in the in-between time

00:57:21   when WWDC does not exist.

00:57:23   It only exists as a thing that happened in the past.

00:57:26   - It's like doing a show with two lawyers, I tell you what.

00:57:28   - Everyone loves lawyers.

00:57:29   - You're right, you are right.

00:57:30   - I'm just saying, it's just the unknown.

00:57:33   What I'm saying is that the current period we're in

00:57:35   is not that dissimilar from years past

00:57:40   where we are waiting to find out when WWDC will be.

00:57:44   The difference this year is one of the prominent options

00:57:47   is not this year.

00:57:49   - Yep, and so the reason this is potentially

00:57:52   gonna be a thing is because of the coronavirus

00:57:54   or whatever the correct term for it is.

00:57:56   - COVID-19.

00:57:57   - Thank you.

00:57:58   It is certainly going around the world.

00:57:59   It's going around the US now.

00:58:01   It sounds like Seattle in particular,

00:58:03   a lot of things are happening out there,

00:58:05   and that's a lot closer to California

00:58:07   than say Marco and John and I are.

00:58:09   So a lot of other conferences have also said

00:58:12   they're canceling.

00:58:13   The Geneva Auto Show got canceled.

00:58:16   Google I/O got canceled.

00:58:17   That usually happens about a month before dub-dub.

00:58:19   There's a lot of smoke saying that WWDC

00:58:24   is probably gonna be canceled.

00:58:25   And I noticed, but I have not yet had a chance to listen,

00:58:28   that on Under the Radar, you in front of the show,

00:58:31   David Smith covered this and kind of alternatives,

00:58:34   and so I don't know if you wanna rehash briefly

00:58:36   some of that, but I guess let me start by asking,

00:58:39   starting with Marco, do you suspect that WWDC

00:58:42   will happen in person this year?

00:58:45   And let's leave aside a press event.

00:58:46   I'm talking about the regular people,

00:58:49   you know the thing that we're allowed to go to,

00:58:50   the regular people, the Worldwide Developer Conference.

00:58:54   Do you suspect that that will happen in person

00:58:56   in California this year, Marco?

00:58:58   - Almost certainly not.

00:59:00   I am like 90% sure it's gonna be canceled.

00:59:04   They just haven't announced it yet.

00:59:05   And I tweeted this to the fact of the day,

00:59:07   my theory is basically that I'm pretty sure

00:59:10   they've already made the decision internally to cancel it,

00:59:13   and they're just trying to make alternative arrangements

00:59:15   for things like online sessions and whatever else

00:59:18   so that they can announce at the same time.

00:59:20   Instead of just saying, no WWDC this year,

00:59:23   I'm guessing they wanna do an announcement that says,

00:59:26   WWDC will be online only this year,

00:59:27   and here's all the great things we're gonna have to offer.

00:59:29   Something a little more upbeat.

00:59:31   That I think is much more likely to happen.

00:59:33   And yeah, and I did talk about this

00:59:36   for the entire Under the Radar episode

00:59:39   with our friend Undercore David Smith.

00:59:41   So check out Under the Radar from today.

00:59:42   I'll link to it in the show notes.

00:59:44   That is certainly worth listening to

00:59:47   if you wanna hear us talk for almost exactly 30 minutes

00:59:50   about this exact topic and kind of what it means

00:59:53   and what Apple could do instead.

00:59:55   And we're gonna recover some of that here, of course,

00:59:57   but certainly check that if you are interested in this topic.

01:00:00   But yeah, I think the chances of Apple holding this conference

01:00:05   are extremely low because this is a significant virus

01:00:10   that's going around the world.

01:00:12   It is causing deaths, and it's not killing everybody

01:00:17   who gets it, but it is a serious problem,

01:00:19   and it's not something that can be taken lightly.

01:00:20   It's something that everybody needs to be very cautious about

01:00:23   and Apple is a cautious company,

01:00:25   and Apple is a company that tries to avoid bad press

01:00:28   whenever possible, and no company wants to put on an event

01:00:33   that at the event exposes people to this virus,

01:00:37   and one of them dies.

01:00:39   That's horrible.

01:00:39   Nobody wants to risk that, understandably.

01:00:43   And so there is no way that I think Apple's

01:00:46   gonna put this conference on.

01:00:47   I think they are way too smart to do that.

01:00:50   And anybody who's running a big event right now

01:00:53   for a high-profile thing, if they're not canceling

01:00:56   that event, they're not thinking right,

01:00:59   because it's a big enough problem.

01:01:04   The virus is a pretty big problem.

01:01:06   The effects are still largely unknown.

01:01:09   The gestation period is long, and so you don't really

01:01:13   realize how bad it is for a couple of weeks

01:01:16   after it has gotten that bad, and these are all events

01:01:20   that have to be planned months ahead of time

01:01:22   that are gathering a whole bunch of people

01:01:26   from all over the world in confined spaces.

01:01:29   It's just ludicrous to think that any of these

01:01:32   major events are gonna happen,

01:01:34   or that they should happen.

01:01:36   There are some conferences that are happening

01:01:40   in the near future that are still gonna go on, allegedly,

01:01:43   but I think that's a mistake for those conferences,

01:01:46   and I think they're hearing from it.

01:01:48   Major sponsors and participants are pulling out

01:01:51   these conferences, companies are restricting

01:01:54   their employees' travel, they're saying that they're not

01:01:57   allowing their employees to travel to conferences anymore

01:01:59   for a lot of things, it's a big deal.

01:02:02   And Apple's not gonna take any risks, Apple's not stupid.

01:02:04   They're a conservative, smart company.

01:02:07   There's no way this conference goes on.

01:02:10   - John, what do you think?

01:02:12   - I was thinking about, I haven't heard the end of the radar

01:02:15   about various options you can do.

01:02:17   W3C has been streaming live online

01:02:20   for the past couple of years.

01:02:21   Not only do you get the sessions,

01:02:22   but you can watch them at the same time

01:02:24   as the people in the room,

01:02:25   maybe with a seven second delay or something.

01:02:27   And then they have the recordings of the video,

01:02:29   and all sorts of things that they could do

01:02:32   over the internet, and of course, obviously,

01:02:34   the press only keynote that you could do,

01:02:37   the same way they do all the other press only keynotes.

01:02:39   But the thing that occurred to me is,

01:02:41   it's a very Apple move to also find some way

01:02:44   to charge quote unquote attendees $1600 to attend it online,

01:02:49   but I'm like, what would be the distinction

01:02:50   between the people who pay $1600 and the people who don't?

01:02:53   Because already, if you pay nothing,

01:02:55   you can stream the sessions live for free.

01:02:57   What would you be getting?

01:02:58   Would they mail you a jacket and some pins?

01:03:01   They mail you some terrible box lunches?

01:03:05   - I don't think the ticket price comes close

01:03:08   to paying for the massive cost

01:03:12   that Apple endures for this conference.

01:03:14   When you combine all the various factors,

01:03:17   the ticket price probably pays for the venue

01:03:18   and your box lunches.

01:03:20   - Well, if they add in our hotel fees,

01:03:23   it pays for everything, but Apple doesn't get the hotel money.

01:03:25   - Yeah, and it probably doesn't.

01:03:27   I'm sure to Apple, from their point of view,

01:03:30   the most expensive part of this conference every year

01:03:32   is probably the massive amount of time it takes

01:03:34   to prepare for all the employees, all the engineers

01:03:37   that have to go there and prepare presentations

01:03:40   and be there for the labs.

01:03:42   That's a massive amount of labor that goes into that.

01:03:45   That is probably way more expensive to Apple

01:03:47   than the actual nuts and bolts of,

01:03:49   like, the conference center costs this much,

01:03:50   the lunches cost this much.

01:03:52   And that's why, assuming they don't hold this conference,

01:03:55   I think what they are most likely to do

01:04:00   is to just do a bunch of online sessions,

01:04:02   just like they've been doing.

01:04:03   As you said, they've been live streaming.

01:04:05   I think they're just gonna release a bunch of session videos

01:04:08   and have a small media event

01:04:10   where they live stream a keynote.

01:04:12   And I think that's gonna be it.

01:04:13   Now, I would like to see them do more.

01:04:15   This is what we talked about on Under the Radar,

01:04:16   this part of it.

01:04:17   I would love to see them invest more heavily

01:04:20   in things like documentation, sample code,

01:04:24   and possibly, this is a bit of a reach,

01:04:28   but possibly staff up DTS and expand some kind of form

01:04:32   of the labs to be online and public,

01:04:35   where you get to actually talk to Apple engineers

01:04:39   about specific questions and problems you have

01:04:42   with specific APIs and your code,

01:04:44   and they'll look at it, and they'll, like,

01:04:46   it's similar to what DTS incidents do

01:04:48   when you have a developer account, but free and easier.

01:04:52   That kind of thing, DTS is famously a very, very, very,

01:04:57   very, very small staff,

01:04:59   and I would love to see them staff it up.

01:05:01   I would love to see them take the resources they are saving

01:05:04   by presumably not having this conference

01:05:07   and use that to really beef up the documentation

01:05:10   and really beef up the sample code

01:05:12   and really beef up DTS,

01:05:15   and just give more developers more access to stuff

01:05:18   without having them fly across the world

01:05:22   to stay in a very expensive hotel

01:05:24   and go to this one thing in person

01:05:27   for these few days a year.

01:05:29   Because if you think about it,

01:05:30   that whole system is incredibly inefficient

01:05:34   and incredibly exclusionary.

01:05:37   It's very exclusive.

01:05:38   The percentage of Apple developers

01:05:40   that can actually go to the conference

01:05:43   is such a tiny percentage of all the Apple developers

01:05:46   out there in the world.

01:05:47   It's this, you know, a few thousand people

01:05:50   out of hundreds of thousands or millions

01:05:53   of iOS developers around the world.

01:05:54   Like, we're talking a lot of people here.

01:05:56   It's a very big field, and so anything they can do

01:06:00   to make that more accessible to more people

01:06:03   has way more value than anything they could possibly change

01:06:06   about the conference itself,

01:06:07   like, of, you know, how it is for local attendees.

01:06:09   And, you know, I like the conference.

01:06:11   I've been fortunate enough to be able to go

01:06:12   to every one of them since 2009,

01:06:14   and I, you know, I consider that a privilege.

01:06:18   And yet, I also look at it as, you know,

01:06:22   every year I kind of think, wow, this is kind of wasteful.

01:06:25   This is very expensive. (laughs)

01:06:28   And that's one of the reasons why I stopped getting badges

01:06:30   a couple years ago, too, is like, you know,

01:06:31   'cause I'm going mostly for, like, the community events

01:06:33   and occasional, like, find a way to sneak into a lab

01:06:37   and ask, like, one question to a lab person.

01:06:38   But otherwise, like, I'm mostly going

01:06:39   for the community events and everything.

01:06:41   But, like, they would have so much more value

01:06:46   to more people if they beefed up all of the online resources.

01:06:51   And if they're not gonna have a conference this year,

01:06:53   I think that is a, like, if you can find a silver lining

01:06:58   in them canceling this conference, that's it.

01:07:00   Like, they should redirect that energy and that time

01:07:03   to making things that everybody can use,

01:07:06   making all that stuff better.

01:07:07   The documentation's in a terrible state.

01:07:09   Sample code has been decimated by all the changes in Swift.

01:07:13   Like, most sample code doesn't work anymore.

01:07:15   Like, it's just, they really, they need a lot of help

01:07:18   in documentation and all that supporting stuff.

01:07:21   And they, it's just, it needs help, and I hope it gets it.

01:07:26   That being said, I don't think most of that

01:07:29   is likely to happen.

01:07:30   I think what's most likely to happen

01:07:33   is the conference gets canceled, and we just get videos

01:07:36   and a keynote from, you know, a media event, and that's it.

01:07:39   And no other changes.

01:07:40   That's much more likely, I think.

01:07:43   - Well, about the videos, though, you mentioned,

01:07:45   like, the cost of putting on WWDC.

01:07:48   The cost to the engineering org is the engineer's time

01:07:51   that they take out to prepare and perform the presentations.

01:07:54   And that time doesn't probably shrink at all

01:07:58   for them doing it, you know, on a stage versus not.

01:08:02   If anything, maybe they have to do more takes

01:08:04   in front of a camera, right?

01:08:05   'Cause they still have to prepare the presentations.

01:08:07   They still have to make sure they have slides and sample code

01:08:09   and a rehearsed presentation that has correct, you know,

01:08:12   all the art on it is correct,

01:08:14   and all the information is correct,

01:08:15   and it matches up with the WWDC build.

01:08:17   And like, that engineering time is absorbed

01:08:20   whether we're there or not.

01:08:22   All the people whose time gets back are the people

01:08:24   who plan the event, deal with the venue,

01:08:26   deal with meals, deal with security.

01:08:28   Those people don't have to do anything.

01:08:29   Like, they're freed up, but they're not going to suddenly

01:08:31   hop on to making the documentation better, right?

01:08:33   So it is still a fairly large cost to Apple's engineering org.

01:08:37   The part they save for the engineers is you don't have to be

01:08:40   in this building for a couple of days or the entire week.

01:08:43   You know, you don't have to actually physically be there.

01:08:45   Once you're done with your video,

01:08:46   you can resume your regular work,

01:08:49   and then the videos go out to the world, right?

01:08:51   And then as for, like, labs and remote labs,

01:08:54   I think it was making me, when you were saying that,

01:08:55   it was making me think about,

01:08:56   do you remember when iChat video conferencing first came out?

01:09:00   One of the features it had is you could sort of share

01:09:03   a document, like you could see the little faces

01:09:05   on these screens in this little 3D kind of view,

01:09:07   and then you could also share a document,

01:09:09   and then your two little faces would be looking

01:09:10   at the document, do you remember that?

01:09:12   - No.

01:09:12   - So they had multi-person conferencing, right?

01:09:15   And the way they did it was instead of just seeing,

01:09:18   instead of in the window just seeing, like,

01:09:20   the other person, right, you would see the other person

01:09:24   would become like a little tile that would sort of move back

01:09:27   into the screen, kind of like a bunch of picture frames

01:09:29   sitting on a table or whatever.

01:09:31   And then when you shared a document,

01:09:32   that document would be another little picture

01:09:34   in the sort of setting, like a cover flow type setting.

01:09:38   Anyway, the point is, it would let two people,

01:09:41   you know, it would let you see the other person's face

01:09:43   and a document that they can also see on their screen.

01:09:46   And I can't tell you how many times I'm usually doing stuff

01:09:48   with my parents on FaceTime or whatever,

01:09:52   and we essentially want to share a document.

01:09:54   Let's all look at the whatever thing together,

01:09:56   like in this context, not, hey,

01:09:59   I'm gonna open up another window

01:10:00   and I'm gonna look at this document and you look at it too,

01:10:02   and like, so we could both be looking at it together.

01:10:04   I know with like Google Docs or whatever,

01:10:05   you can interactively see each other's cursors

01:10:07   and both be looking at the same document or whatever,

01:10:08   but it's just, it's so much easier if you can just say,

01:10:11   here, in this multi-person FaceTime chat

01:10:14   with the whole family, let's look at this thing,

01:10:16   or let's look at a bunch of pictures together.

01:10:18   I have a slideshow to show you, let's go through it,

01:10:20   oh, look at all the pictures, and you can see the pictures

01:10:22   and the people's reaction to them.

01:10:24   Something like that would go a long way

01:10:26   towards making things like labs possible, right?

01:10:29   Interactively over some Apple product or communication

01:10:32   protocol that Apple feels is secure

01:10:34   and you're all happy with or whatever,

01:10:35   let's all be sort of collaboratively working on a thing.

01:10:39   Something better than, oh, I'm gonna let Apple control

01:10:41   my screen with screen sharing,

01:10:42   or I'm gonna let Apple view my whole desktop

01:10:44   with screen sharing, just to selectively share documents

01:10:47   or a single window, or to be, you know,

01:10:49   tools that Apple's generally not good at.

01:10:52   As a company that tends to frown upon people telecommuting,

01:10:55   they like things to be in person

01:10:57   and they don't have a lot of collaborative tools

01:11:00   to be able to have a bunch of people

01:11:02   working on something together.

01:11:03   As terrible as things like WebEx and Zoom

01:11:06   and Microsoft Teams and Slack and all these other things are

01:11:09   almost all of those tools have as table stakes,

01:11:11   a bunch of people can communicate through audio and video

01:11:15   and also can all be looking at a single document

01:11:17   or a screen at the same time.

01:11:19   And if you're gonna do anything remotely like labs,

01:11:22   remote, you know, when people aren't in person,

01:11:24   you need something like that.

01:11:25   And Apple has nothing like that,

01:11:26   I can't really imagine Apple instructing everyone

01:11:28   to download Zoom or WebEx.

01:11:31   So remote labs, unless it's all gonna be over like,

01:11:35   we do what I do with my parents,

01:11:36   which is we're all on FaceTime,

01:11:37   and then I like hold up like a phone or a laptop screen

01:11:41   in front of the camera so they could see,

01:11:42   it's just, I don't see that working.

01:11:45   Whereas in the labs, you're both hunched over

01:11:46   the same laptop and everything works out.

01:11:49   So yeah, I'm not optimistic about that,

01:11:51   but getting back to my earlier point about customizing,

01:11:53   I'm also not optimistic about the idea

01:11:55   that once there's no longer a conference,

01:11:57   suddenly engineers will have a bunch of time

01:11:58   to sharp their docs.

01:11:59   Now it could be that one of the announcements at WWDC

01:12:02   is since last WWDC, we've had a concerted effort

01:12:05   to improve our documentation,

01:12:06   and it's all rolling out this week.

01:12:07   And that's like revealing work that they had done

01:12:10   over six months or a year.

01:12:11   That, if that's what they had done,

01:12:14   that happens whether or not they have WWDC,

01:12:16   doesn't have nothing to do with freeing up engineers' time,

01:12:18   has to do with the thing they already did in the past.

01:12:20   And I'm hoping that's the case.

01:12:21   I'm hoping the reveal is we made a big effort

01:12:23   to improve this aspect of the developer experience,

01:12:26   and we are revealing it at WWDC,

01:12:29   not doing it while you're watching

01:12:31   a bunch of pre-recorded videos.

01:12:32   - Yeah, I wouldn't hold my breath on that.

01:12:34   Nope.

01:12:35   - Never know.

01:12:36   I mean, even if they don't really do it, do it.

01:12:37   They tend to make announcements like that.

01:12:39   If they know it's a thing that people want,

01:12:41   they'll want to have an announcement that says,

01:12:43   we've heard your complaints about documentation

01:12:44   and we've improved documentation in X, Y, and Z way.

01:12:48   Whether or not is it a significant improvement

01:12:50   or they make it sound better than it is,

01:12:53   very often there's some effort to help with that.

01:12:58   Even if they don't come out and say it,

01:12:59   they'll just say, here's a new framework

01:13:01   and we're really proud of the documentation.

01:13:02   There's lots of different ways they could spin it

01:13:03   to try to sort of address the issue in some way.

01:13:07   And I think that might happen.

01:13:10   I don't know.

01:13:11   It's hard to predict WWDC because very often

01:13:13   there's something big and shiny that they can throw out

01:13:16   and it will just distract everybody from any issues,

01:13:18   any boring issues like documentation and sample code.

01:13:21   Like I say, an ARM transition.

01:13:23   (laughing)

01:13:24   - Can you imagine if this was the year

01:13:26   for the ARM transition?

01:13:27   That would be brutal.

01:13:29   I don't know, I just want to reiterate though

01:13:30   what Marco had said earlier on that for the three of us,

01:13:35   this is our job, well, I think, especially for me

01:13:39   and Marco, maybe for John, it's our job

01:13:40   to go to the conference, or at least to go to the event,

01:13:44   I should say, and be there for it and make an appearance

01:13:47   and I think to some degree it is kind of a responsibility

01:13:50   for the three of us to have a live show there

01:13:51   when it happens.

01:13:52   But it is extremely expensive.

01:13:55   Not only is the ticket $1600,

01:13:57   but any even slightly reasonable hotel

01:14:00   is easily another $1600, if not 2000 plus dollars.

01:14:04   And I will never forget, I don't remember who said it to me,

01:14:07   but I will never forget when it started to get

01:14:10   really and truly expensive when it was still

01:14:11   in San Francisco proper, somebody looked at me

01:14:14   and I think it was the year that the Apple Watch

01:14:16   had just been released or announced or whatever.

01:14:19   - I believe this was Underscore who said it. (laughs)

01:14:21   - Was it Underscore? - I think so.

01:14:22   - Would you surprise me?

01:14:22   Underscore looked at me and said,

01:14:25   you realize that this $400 a night hotel

01:14:29   is you buying an Apple Watch every single night

01:14:32   and then throwing it away. (laughing)

01:14:33   And boom, my mind exploded and I just couldn't believe it.

01:14:38   And I was, no, no, that's, oh God.

01:14:41   Oh, oh, oh God, you're right.

01:14:43   Oh, that's not gonna, I mean,

01:14:45   that is preposterous, that is utterly preposterous.

01:14:48   I mean, I could go on a three hour tear

01:14:50   about how obnoxiously expensive everything in the valley is

01:14:53   and I don't understand how anyone can afford to live there,

01:14:55   but be that as it may, to go to this conference,

01:14:57   as someone who lives in the United States,

01:15:00   you're probably going to need to get on a plane,

01:15:02   so that's between 500 and 1000 bucks in most cases.

01:15:06   If you want a ticket to the event, that's $1600,

01:15:09   so call that an even 2000.

01:15:10   Then you wanna sleep somewhere and preferably somewhere

01:15:12   that has all the walls, this floor and the ceiling,

01:15:16   so that's probably another $2000.

01:15:18   So you're looking at $4000, you haven't eaten anything,

01:15:21   you haven't drank anything, I'm not even talking booze,

01:15:23   just in general, you haven't eaten or drank anything.

01:15:25   You do get those sweet, sweet, sweet box lunches

01:15:27   for quote, unquote, free, but you haven't had breakfast.

01:15:30   Oh, I guess you could have their crap circular bagel-like

01:15:34   things at the conference.

01:15:37   But you certainly haven't had dinner.

01:15:38   I mean, you're looking at between 4000 and $5000 for a week,

01:15:43   and it's just insane.

01:15:46   It's just bananas that it's that expensive.

01:15:49   And somebody in the chat is saying,

01:15:51   "Well, that's just what hotels cost."

01:15:53   Absolutely not, it is like $100 a night

01:15:56   to get a really decent room where I am.

01:15:58   - Yeah, and these aren't nice hotels.

01:16:01   They're like really mediocre hotels

01:16:03   that if they were anywhere else in the country,

01:16:04   would be like 150 bucks a night,

01:16:06   and instead they're 400.

01:16:08   - Or more, or more!

01:16:10   It's preposterous, and so as we have said,

01:16:14   I love WWDC, I really do.

01:16:16   I love the event, like the conference.

01:16:18   I love the actual conference that takes place

01:16:21   in the convention center.

01:16:22   I love, love, love, love, love all the superfluous

01:16:25   and other things that happen around it.

01:16:26   When I had the chance to go to Layers, I loved that.

01:16:29   There's so much good to be said about this,

01:16:32   but I also feel like there's been some tension building

01:16:36   over the last several years as things are just getting

01:16:39   insurmountably expensive, and to the point that

01:16:42   the only people who can afford it

01:16:44   are people who are billing their employer,

01:16:46   and maybe that's okay with Apple, I don't know,

01:16:48   but for someone like the three of us,

01:16:50   it's tough, it's hard, it's frustrating,

01:16:53   and so I would love to see it,

01:16:55   as much as I would hate to see it go away

01:16:57   on a more permanent basis, although it seems like

01:16:59   we all agree that maybe this year we should sit this one out,

01:17:02   as much as I would hate to see it go away

01:17:04   on a permanent basis, I would love to see

01:17:08   a lot of things change, and I'm really looking forward

01:17:10   to listening to that under the radar

01:17:12   to hear what you and David had to say about it.

01:17:14   - And I would even go a little bit further.

01:17:16   I would push a little harder on the angle of like,

01:17:19   you know, making, that this is kind of ridiculous now.

01:17:22   If you look at the landscape of tech conferences as a whole,

01:17:28   there was a period, kind of a golden era of tech conferences

01:17:33   that were mostly smaller conferences,

01:17:35   started about 10 years ago, and ran until probably

01:17:38   about three, four years ago, and this was an era

01:17:42   when there were lots of conferences, big and small,

01:17:45   at all different price points, all around the world,

01:17:48   and they were due pretty well, like, you know,

01:17:50   it was always a lot of work to put them on,

01:17:52   a few of our friends put them on,

01:17:54   and you know, it was kind of like throwing a wedding,

01:17:55   but every year, and so it was certainly, you know, work,

01:17:59   but like, it was a fun little community,

01:18:01   it was a fun, you know, thing to do for the group of people

01:18:06   who was lucky enough to be able to do it, basically,

01:18:08   and travel all over the world and go to these fun things,

01:18:11   or hope that one came up near you,

01:18:12   and it made things a lot more accessible

01:18:13   to more, you know, localities,

01:18:15   but something changed a few years ago,

01:18:19   and it started to become increasingly difficult

01:18:23   to sell conference tickets,

01:18:25   it started to become increasingly difficult

01:18:26   to run a conference and break even,

01:18:29   and not just lose all your money,

01:18:30   and you know, not to mention all the work you put into it,

01:18:33   like, running conferences is a terrible way to make money,

01:18:36   and so it's even worse than writing books,

01:18:39   and so it became, like, kind of the market for conferences

01:18:44   seemed to really crumble apart a few years ago,

01:18:49   and most of the conferences that were going strong

01:18:52   five years ago are gone now,

01:18:55   and there are very few that seem to be left,

01:18:58   and I wonder, my theory at the time, for the most part,

01:19:03   has been, like, it used to be that you could get somebody,

01:19:07   like John Gruber, to speak at a conference,

01:19:09   and that would sell tickets, that you could go,

01:19:12   and if you wanted to hear John Gruber talk about something,

01:19:15   you could go to the conference, pay the, you know,

01:19:17   pay whatever the ticket fee is, and travel there,

01:19:20   and you could see people that you liked online,

01:19:22   you could see them talk, and it was interesting,

01:19:25   and you could, like, meet them afterwards, maybe,

01:19:28   or hang out, or have this little community

01:19:29   of other people who were there, hang out with them,

01:19:32   and that was great for a while,

01:19:34   and then everybody got a podcast,

01:19:38   or everybody got a YouTube channel,

01:19:41   and now you can hear the people who you're interested in,

01:19:45   you can hear their thoughts for free

01:19:49   all the time in podcasts or on YouTube channels,

01:19:56   and you no longer need to go to conferences

01:19:59   to hear what these people sound like in real life,

01:20:03   or to see, like, what, you know,

01:20:04   to kind of get an idea of their personality

01:20:06   beyond, like, just their words that they write

01:20:07   on a site somewhere.

01:20:09   You can actually just listen to their podcast,

01:20:11   or watch their YouTube channel for free,

01:20:13   and everybody can do it,

01:20:15   and preparing conference talks as the presenter,

01:20:19   that format has a certain expectation of, like,

01:20:23   formality and preparation that makes it

01:20:25   a very time-intensive thing to make.

01:20:27   Preparing conference talk is a ton of work.

01:20:31   Making good slides, rehearsing the talk,

01:20:34   giving it, like, a nice story arc and everything,

01:20:37   it's a ton of work for the presenter,

01:20:39   and you do all that work,

01:20:41   and all you get out of it is, at the end,

01:20:45   maybe a hundred people or a couple hundred people see it.

01:20:48   Maybe, if you're lucky, there'll be a good video,

01:20:50   and it'll live on for a while, you know,

01:20:52   outside of the conference,

01:20:52   but usually that didn't happen.

01:20:54   Usually, you know, you're giving it to the room,

01:20:55   and that's it.

01:20:56   Or you can do a podcast or a YouTube video,

01:21:01   which is usually unscripted or less scripted.

01:21:05   There's not the big expectation of, like,

01:21:07   the formal, like, slides and nicely designed everything.

01:21:11   You have the opportunity to edit if you want to,

01:21:14   and it's just a different format.

01:21:15   It's a much lower work-to-output format

01:21:19   than a conference talk.

01:21:20   So you have all of us, like,

01:21:23   who used to go to conferences and speak,

01:21:25   we now do other things because, frankly, it's less work,

01:21:29   and we reach way more people with way less effort.

01:21:32   And so you have that side of the market.

01:21:35   Then on the other side, you have people just not seeing

01:21:40   the need to pay hundreds or thousands, usually, of dollars

01:21:45   to go to conferences to see people

01:21:47   when they can just listen to podcasts.

01:21:50   And so I think the market for conferences in general

01:21:53   has mostly evaporated for that kind of, like,

01:21:57   community, small kind of thing.

01:21:59   What's left are these, like, mega conferences

01:22:03   that usually, like, the platform owners run

01:22:06   for the people on their platform.

01:22:08   So, you know, things like WVDC, Google I/O.

01:22:12   And by the way, and I'm not talking about conventions,

01:22:15   like Comic-Con, like, that's a separate thing.

01:22:17   I'm not in that world, I don't know anything

01:22:18   about that world.

01:22:19   But I'm talking about, like, conferences of, like,

01:22:22   it's like instructional talks to people,

01:22:25   or, you know, here's my origin story, that kind of thing.

01:22:27   That's mostly what I'm talking about.

01:22:29   The market for that is really hard now.

01:22:32   The small conferences are mostly gone.

01:22:34   You're mostly looking at just the big platform vendors.

01:22:36   And people go to these things, like,

01:22:38   basically just to hear about the new APIs

01:22:40   and go to the labs and try to get time with developers.

01:22:43   Like, that's mostly what these big things are for now.

01:22:47   And so the more of that I think that we can remove

01:22:50   the need for, the better everybody will be,

01:22:53   because the way that the smaller conferences died

01:22:57   has resulted in way more availability

01:23:00   of these people's wonderful content available to everyone

01:23:04   all around the world, any time, for free.

01:23:06   So how much can we do to make WWDC and conferences like it

01:23:12   more like that?

01:23:12   How much can we do to reduce the need for these

01:23:16   to make their value available to more people

01:23:20   all the time, everywhere, for free?

01:23:22   - I feel like the kind of conference you're talking about

01:23:25   definitely is undercut by podcasts,

01:23:27   but there is another kind of conference that lives on

01:23:30   and in fact has sort of blossomed in the shadow

01:23:34   of the other kinds of conferences for good and for ill,

01:23:36   and that's the more instructive sort of like classroom

01:23:41   type of thing, where it's like a little miniature school.

01:23:46   So you can't replace it with like a one-way communication

01:23:49   because it's interactive, like a classroom

01:23:51   where there's a room full of students and a teacher

01:23:53   and you're going through some curriculum

01:23:54   and you get to ask questions and stuff,

01:23:55   and that doesn't happen in a podcast or YouTube setting.

01:23:59   It's educationally focused, so people and/or companies

01:24:03   are willing to pay for it as a form of training.

01:24:05   And these ones tend to be, I mean, they're also

01:24:08   the big ones, but the big ones tend to be

01:24:09   less instructional.

01:24:10   The smaller ones can get away with being more instructional.

01:24:12   It's because we're not a platform owner.

01:24:14   In fact, our business is teaching you how to use

01:24:16   insert technology and/or product here

01:24:18   so that you can be trained up and get these skills

01:24:22   to either get a job or improve at your current job,

01:24:24   and companies will pay for you to go to this type of training

01:24:27   There are a couple of big to medium shows in this area

01:24:30   like Event Apart, an event apart for web technologies,

01:24:33   which is a long-standing conference,

01:24:35   but even like little things where it's just,

01:24:37   one form of it is someone will come into your company

01:24:40   and teach a bunch of people a thing,

01:24:41   but there are ones you go to at a particular location

01:24:45   and to learn about stuff.

01:24:46   There are some scammy ones that are, you know,

01:24:48   come to this 10-day boot camp and will turn you into

01:24:50   a whatever and you pay all this money,

01:24:51   and it's like, I could've just learned this online,

01:24:53   but I feel like that type of, that interactive nature

01:24:58   lends itself to an in-person room full of people.

01:25:01   It's where the math starts to make sense of like,

01:25:03   well, why would I spend all this time on this,

01:25:06   polishing this message to tell it to a room of 100 people?

01:25:09   But you wouldn't have that same question about

01:25:11   why would a room of 50 people and one or two teachers

01:25:15   spend their time narrow-casting to each other?

01:25:17   It's like, well, it's interactive, it's a classroom.

01:25:18   You don't want a million people in a classroom.

01:25:21   A million people in a classroom can't learn that way.

01:25:22   You need some sort of give and take,

01:25:24   some sort of question and answer, you know?

01:25:26   It's why education tends to work that way

01:25:29   and has not turned over entirely to just a one-way blast

01:25:32   of a YouTube channel that teaches you math or something,

01:25:34   although there's a place for that as well.

01:25:35   So I think that type of conference is more durable

01:25:39   and maybe has a better business model

01:25:41   because you feel like you're getting value out of it.

01:25:43   I mean, certainly the business model of people paying money

01:25:45   for education is well-established.

01:25:47   So I'm thinking that that's gonna be harder to go away,

01:25:50   but you're right that the consolidation

01:25:51   in the other kind of conference has not left a lot of room

01:25:54   for the small things that you were describing.

01:25:56   And then if you think about what's left,

01:25:58   F8, AWS, Reinvent, whatever the hell that thing is called,

01:26:04   I think they're still doing that giant Oracle thing.

01:26:06   There's a giant Salesforce conference, WWDC.

01:26:11   Yeah, it's all the big giant platform owners.

01:26:14   And the networking, the sort of in-person networking

01:26:18   is still definitely a real thing.

01:26:19   I think that same networking happens

01:26:21   at those educational things as well,

01:26:23   but certainly happens much more

01:26:25   at let's say the Salesforce conference or whatever.

01:26:28   I think that is, well, I don't know.

01:26:29   I'm saying this as someone who doesn't like to,

01:26:32   as an introvert, you can do a surprising amount

01:26:35   of networking online, but I think as we all know,

01:26:38   like it's easy to say these in-person conferences

01:26:40   have been replaced by podcasts

01:26:42   after we have all gone through a phase

01:26:44   where we went to a bunch of them

01:26:45   and met a bunch of people who are now our friends.

01:26:47   Like that type of in-person networking is really valuable.

01:26:50   And just because we've established a friend group

01:26:53   in our industry already doesn't mean that,

01:26:56   now we no longer need those conferences

01:26:57   because we don't need them,

01:26:58   therefore nobody should have them.

01:26:59   I think first time WWDC attendees come away

01:27:02   with connections that are super important

01:27:05   for the future of their career,

01:27:06   and it'll be a shame in particular in the Apple community

01:27:09   to lose that because without, I mean, just think of that.

01:27:12   How did I meet Casey?

01:27:13   How did I meet you in person?

01:27:15   Add to WWDC, would we ever have met

01:27:17   if WWDC didn't exist and we weren't there in person?

01:27:19   - No, you don't go anywhere.

01:27:21   - Exactly, and I knew of Marco online

01:27:23   for a long time before that,

01:27:24   but we had never interacted until we had occasion

01:27:26   to be in the same place at the same time.

01:27:28   It's the way that works.

01:27:29   So in some ways, I mean, we have the problem of scale here

01:27:33   where it's like, well, that's great.

01:27:34   When Apple's a smaller company, that made sense,

01:27:35   but your point earlier, Marco, is totally true.

01:27:38   There are so many developers that the fraction of them

01:27:41   that gets to WWDC just keeps going down and down.

01:27:44   And so, you know, me saying that there should still be WWDC

01:27:48   because other people need to have the same opportunity

01:27:50   to network that we had is true,

01:27:52   but their opportunity is so slim

01:27:55   because they have to enter a lottery

01:27:57   to get a ticket for Crying Out Loud.

01:27:58   It used to be that Apple would call you and say,

01:28:01   "Hey, you know, you have a free WWDC ticket

01:28:03   "that comes with your ADC Premier membership.

01:28:05   "Do you want to use that?"

01:28:06   And people would go, "Eh, nah."

01:28:08   Like Apple would nag you to try to cajole you

01:28:11   into using your free ticket as part of your,

01:28:14   you know, thousand something dollar ADC Premier ticket.

01:28:17   Times have changed.

01:28:18   There is a lot of demand.

01:28:19   There is very little supply,

01:28:21   but I still think for developers, for new developers,

01:28:26   or developers new to the Apple community,

01:28:28   that in-person contact with the group

01:28:31   of other Apple developers is actually really valuable.

01:28:33   It would actually be great if they could expand that

01:28:35   rather than contracting it.

01:28:36   You probably talked about this on another radar,

01:28:37   but the whole tech talks thing

01:28:39   where Apple would come to your city with a smaller crew

01:28:42   and do a bunch of presentations to a limited subset.

01:28:44   Before I ever went to WWDC,

01:28:46   I went to a Boston area tech talk thing

01:28:48   and didn't meet anybody because I don't like people,

01:28:51   but they were there if I wanted to.

01:28:52   (laughing)

01:28:53   I could have talked to Paul Kifasis, but I didn't.

01:28:55   - You were near the people at least.

01:28:57   - Yeah, I was.

01:28:58   I was near them.

01:28:59   So that type of thing where,

01:29:01   you know, maybe in a post-coronavirus world,

01:29:03   providing a place where people can actually

01:29:05   meet each other physically does still serve a purpose,

01:29:09   I think.

01:29:09   - Well, but I do wanna touch on one aspect of the whole

01:29:12   like networking and meeting people angle here.

01:29:14   So I spent a large part of my coming of age years

01:29:20   on the internet on discussion forums,

01:29:23   you know, old like Ultimate Bulletin Board, PHP BB,

01:29:26   like that kind of, you know, forums.

01:29:28   And it became clear to me over time

01:29:31   that forums have a certain ideal size.

01:29:36   And that if you are below that size,

01:29:38   it's just kind of too low traffic,

01:29:40   and there's not much reason for anybody to go

01:29:42   like check it regularly 'cause there's not enough new stuff.

01:29:46   And then when you're in this certain size band, it's great.

01:29:49   Because, you know, there's like good traffic,

01:29:51   and there's, you know, you can visit the forum

01:29:53   throughout the day and see new stuff,

01:29:55   and people can play off each other

01:29:56   and get responses fairly fast, and it's really nice.

01:29:59   But if it grows too large, there's also an upper bound

01:30:02   beyond which it's just too much.

01:30:05   And it's actually, it doesn't function very well

01:30:07   as a community anymore.

01:30:08   It doesn't feel very community like.

01:30:11   The community mechanics start to break down.

01:30:13   It becomes like, you know, just more hectic

01:30:16   and too much volume.

01:30:18   And the entire forum mechanic just has this like higher,

01:30:21   this upper bound where it just kind of falls apart

01:30:24   and isn't very good anymore.

01:30:26   Conferences have that too.

01:30:28   And there, like, I actually don't think there is

01:30:32   like a minimum size below which conferences like suck.

01:30:35   Like I've been to conferences that have like 50 people,

01:30:38   and I've been to conferences that have 5,000 people,

01:30:39   and I wouldn't say the 50 people ones were bad.

01:30:43   In fact, they were some of the best ones. (laughs)

01:30:46   I think the value of networking and meeting people

01:30:50   at a conference goes down as the number of attendees

01:30:54   goes up because it becomes harder for people

01:30:58   who don't already have their friend groups

01:31:00   to actually find and meet the people they wanna meet.

01:31:04   Or to find and meet even just like-minded other people

01:31:07   who even if they weren't like, you know,

01:31:09   people they knew before, like,

01:31:10   the percent, like, as the number of conference attendees

01:31:16   goes up, and especially as you don't get as many

01:31:20   like repeat visitors every year,

01:31:21   'cause the number of people trying to get in is so high

01:31:24   that like they try to give a lot of first time tickets,

01:31:26   so like it's hard to get a ticket multiple years in a row.

01:31:29   So like the odds of like building up community,

01:31:33   you know, that actually is meaningful,

01:31:35   and networking is meaningful over, you know,

01:31:37   over a year or two, whatever else,

01:31:39   I feel like that gets harder as the conference gets bigger.

01:31:42   And I think WWDC these last few years

01:31:46   has crossed that threshold where it's actually

01:31:49   pretty difficult to network with people

01:31:52   because it's almost like there's just too many people there.

01:31:57   It's like a little bit too big.

01:31:59   And I don't think the move to San Jose

01:32:00   has actually helped that much.

01:32:02   Although I don't know if it's really hurt it,

01:32:04   but it just seems like the conference is so big now

01:32:08   that even that aspect that's supposed to be really good

01:32:11   about conferences is harder now.

01:32:14   It's harder to get value out of that.

01:32:16   - See, I disagree with you slightly.

01:32:19   I think networking is just as good if not better

01:32:23   because you're getting a new batch of people,

01:32:24   you know, largely new batch of people every year.

01:32:27   But the thing that I struggle with

01:32:29   and the thing that was so great about early WWDC,

01:32:32   so I started going in 2011,

01:32:34   the thing that was so great about that is, you know,

01:32:36   in 2011 I met, you know, maybe five or 10 people

01:32:38   that I really hit it off with, John included.

01:32:41   And then in 2012, I met another couple of people

01:32:43   and over the years I've met more and more people

01:32:45   and have made more lasting relationships.

01:32:48   And that I think you're absolutely right.

01:32:49   It is harder to build a lasting and meaningful relationship

01:32:54   across several WWDCs because A, it's unlikely

01:32:58   that you yourself will go to several in a row,

01:33:00   like you said, and B, even if you dedicate yourself

01:33:02   to going, maybe you're going to layers if not the big show,

01:33:05   or maybe you're just hanging out,

01:33:07   then, you know, Joe Smith or Mary Smith

01:33:11   or whomever that you met last year,

01:33:13   maybe they didn't make it this year.

01:33:14   And that makes that sort of thing different.

01:33:16   But if you just wanna meet a whole bunch of people

01:33:18   at random places, you know, in the traditional business-y

01:33:20   way of networking, I don't think that's really any worse.

01:33:24   But I do find, for me, it's very hard to effectively

01:33:29   and appropriately manage my time because,

01:33:34   and I don't know, maybe this is inside baseball,

01:33:36   maybe this is first world problems,

01:33:37   and if it's really terrible, Marco will just cut it, hooray.

01:33:40   But for me it's very hard because I wanna spend time

01:33:43   with you and John, for example, and Mike,

01:33:45   you know, my co-hosts across my shows.

01:33:47   I wanna spend a lot of time with you guys

01:33:49   'cause I don't get to spend time with you guys in person,

01:33:51   really ever, except in June.

01:33:53   But I also wanna spend time with people

01:33:54   that I don't see often, and so like on the occasions

01:33:57   that Jelly is in town, I mean, he's coming from the future,

01:34:00   he's coming from Australia, so it is not easy

01:34:02   to get him and I in the same spot.

01:34:04   And I wanna spend time with Jelly.

01:34:05   But then at the same time, I wanna spend time

01:34:07   with Apple engineers that I'm friendly with,

01:34:10   sometimes just as friendly with,

01:34:11   that I don't get to see very often.

01:34:12   So I wanna make time for them.

01:34:13   And then while I'm there, I also wanna make time

01:34:15   for people I don't know, and try to be available

01:34:17   for people who are strangers to me,

01:34:19   but maybe I've been in their ears for the last five years.

01:34:23   And I wanna make time for them.

01:34:24   And so what ends up happening is, for me,

01:34:26   I'm always saying to somebody, oh, I can meet with you

01:34:29   for 20 minutes, or, oh yeah, I'd love to hang out,

01:34:31   but I gotta go, or, oh, I didn't realize what time it was,

01:34:34   I'm sorry, we're in the middle of a very deep

01:34:36   and important conversation, I really gotta go.

01:34:38   And that sort of thing has also become very hard.

01:34:40   And I think a lot of that is because I've come to know

01:34:43   a bunch of people over the years,

01:34:44   but I don't think that's unique to being a podcaster.

01:34:46   I think it's just unique to having gone

01:34:48   several years in a row.

01:34:49   And it's just, I don't know, it's all really tough,

01:34:52   and I would like to see a change,

01:34:55   but darned if I know what to recommend.

01:34:58   And I don't know how to backseat drive this conference.

01:35:02   - Well, it's part of the reason I think

01:35:03   that Apple's kept WWDC relatively small.

01:35:05   Like, WWDC hasn't, like, it's gotten bigger

01:35:08   in that more people wanna go,

01:35:09   which means there's more turnover from year to year.

01:35:11   But, like, to your earlier point,

01:35:13   like, even if you don't see any of the same people,

01:35:16   very often, you may be your first or your second year,

01:35:19   you meet a particular group of people,

01:35:20   and then you kind of, that becomes your friend group

01:35:22   after the thing.

01:35:23   You don't need to see them again the next year at WWDC

01:35:26   for that to stick.

01:35:27   I mean, I think that's been true of a lot of first time

01:35:29   or second time attendees.

01:35:31   Certain people you meet there,

01:35:32   you still know and are friends with,

01:35:35   and it's not because you saw them again the second year,

01:35:37   although maybe that helps or whatever.

01:35:38   But for WWDC being 5,000-ish people,

01:35:42   and by the way, when you said early WWDC is in reference 2011,

01:35:45   I'm sure lots of people were rolling their eyes,

01:35:47   because that's another reason that WWDC is gonna be

01:35:51   a big change, is Apple's been running it for a long time.

01:35:53   This is gonna be the first year they skipped since

01:35:56   the '80s, '90s?

01:35:57   I have a VHS tape of WWDC upstairs.

01:36:01   But yeah, so, like, it is possible to have,

01:36:05   and most of these big conferences, platform conferences,

01:36:07   10 times as many people as WWDC.

01:36:10   And I think if you were to ask somebody at the 60,000 person

01:36:13   Salesforce conference, do you find it difficult to network

01:36:15   because there are 60,000 people?

01:36:17   I think, I mean, granted, it's a different group of people.

01:36:19   I think they're gonna say, "No, it's great, tons of people.

01:36:20   "I love meeting the people and doing all the networking,"

01:36:23   and so on and so forth.

01:36:24   Smaller conferences are more intimate,

01:36:27   and you're able to connect

01:36:30   in a sort of a more reliable fashion

01:36:34   with a smaller group of people with less effort.

01:36:37   But I don't think 5,000 is too big.

01:36:39   And even though the demand is so great

01:36:41   that there's turnover, I think it's still,

01:36:44   I mean, I think you have to look at it

01:36:45   from the eyes of a first-time attendee,

01:36:47   like not from a multi-year attendee

01:36:49   who has a bunch of people they know

01:36:50   and whose time is in such demand,

01:36:52   like, you know, Bar's or Casey's or whatever.

01:36:54   Like, it's just, if you're a maybe first

01:36:58   or second-year attendee and you're just overwhelmed

01:37:00   by the sessions and you go to labs

01:37:02   and you meet one or two other people,

01:37:04   doing that just once can be incredibly valuable

01:37:08   to just sort of get you started on your career,

01:37:10   which is why, you know, I'm not saying

01:37:13   that I think W3C needs to continue exactly the way it is,

01:37:16   but I think there needs to be some kind of,

01:37:18   it would be a shame for that to go away

01:37:20   without any kind of replacement.

01:37:21   And I'm not sure what could possibly replace it,

01:37:24   but I think it's been valuable in my career, in life,

01:37:28   and I hear from people who have attended

01:37:31   for the first or second or third time

01:37:32   that they also find it valuable,

01:37:34   even for people who say, "I don't go anymore,

01:37:36   "but I'm so glad I went that one or two times,

01:37:39   "'cause it really set me on my path."

01:37:41   Right, as much as I don't like going out into the world,

01:37:45   being face-to-face with people is extremely valuable.

01:37:48   Again, would we be doing this podcast

01:37:50   had we not met face-to-face,

01:37:52   despite the fact that we, you know,

01:37:53   at least Marco knew of me and I knew of him online,

01:37:56   but it never led us to start a podcast together, right?

01:37:59   And nobody knew Casey, so.

01:38:01   (laughing)

01:38:03   - Who the hell is that guy anyway?

01:38:04   - I feel like meeting in person was an essential catalyst,

01:38:07   and it's very difficult for me to say,

01:38:09   but we don't need that anymore,

01:38:10   because it's too big and it doesn't work.

01:38:12   Like, there are limits, but I feel like WWDC is,

01:38:15   one of the things Apple has done with WWDC

01:38:17   is tried to keep it from getting big,

01:38:19   'cause if they wanted to make WWDC

01:38:21   a 50,000-person conference, they could probably do it,

01:38:23   but they haven't and they don't.

01:38:25   And 5,000 may be a little bit crowded,

01:38:28   but I still feel like it's tenable.

01:38:30   I see the people who are there,

01:38:32   who are first-time people, hanging out,

01:38:34   and maybe they start off in a group

01:38:35   with the people from their company,

01:38:36   but then they talk to some other group.

01:38:38   Like, I think it still works at that level.

01:38:40   - I couldn't agree with you more.

01:38:41   It has been such a valuable, you know,

01:38:43   portion of my life and career that I would hate

01:38:46   to have somebody else miss out on that,

01:38:49   since it made such a big difference for me.

01:38:51   (upbeat music)

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01:40:55   (upbeat music)

01:40:58   All right, let's do some Ask ATP.

01:41:00   And Roar Locar writes, kind of paraphrase,

01:41:03   "The command option click doc shortcut

01:41:05   to open a Finder window is amazing.

01:41:07   What are some of your favorite macOS shortcuts?"

01:41:10   I think I have a ton,

01:41:12   but I could only think of a handful off the top of my head.

01:41:15   So I have three for Finder and two for Xcode.

01:41:19   First of all, for Finder,

01:41:20   command K to get to a window

01:41:22   that'll let you open a VNC session,

01:41:24   which has been very critical.

01:41:25   Now that I'm using the Mac mini remotely a lot,

01:41:27   or an SMB or a network share to say your Synology.

01:41:32   Shift command A for applications.

01:41:35   That is to say, to go into the applications folder.

01:41:37   Shift command four to take a screenshot

01:41:39   or shift command four space

01:41:40   to take a screenshot of a specific window.

01:41:43   And then for Xcode,

01:41:44   option command forward slash for creating documentation.

01:41:48   So, you know, the method summary,

01:41:50   parameters, et cetera, et cetera.

01:41:52   And shift command O for quick open.

01:41:54   So to open a file very quickly by typing the file name.

01:41:56   I really like those.

01:41:58   I should steal one or two of Marco's that I also agree with,

01:42:02   but I will let you actually have your own moment in the sun.

01:42:06   - Thank you.

01:42:07   So one of my favorites that I use all the time

01:42:12   is paste and match style.

01:42:15   This gets you around the problem of if you copy rich text

01:42:18   and you're pasting it somewhere

01:42:20   where you don't want to paste its formatting

01:42:22   that it came with,

01:42:23   you want it to match the formatting

01:42:24   of what you're pasting it into,

01:42:26   which is usually no formatting.

01:42:28   (laughs)

01:42:29   So paste and match style does that.

01:42:30   In my opinion, this should actually be the default behavior

01:42:34   on both platforms.

01:42:35   It's not.

01:42:36   In, on the Mac, you have to do the special shortcut.

01:42:39   On iOS, there is no built-in method of paste and match style.

01:42:42   I actually, on iOS, I use an app called, I believe,

01:42:46   Copy Plain Text, and it simply offers a share extension

01:42:52   that copies what you have selected only as plain text.

01:42:56   So that way you can go paste it effectively unformatted.

01:42:59   Oh yeah, so the app is simply called Plain Text.

01:43:02   (laughs)

01:43:03   I'm sure that'll be easy to find.

01:43:05   I'll only do it in the show notes.

01:43:08   Anyway, so on iOS, you gotta do some crazy thing.

01:43:11   On the Mac, the way to do paste and match style,

01:43:14   it's a menu item.

01:43:15   You can see it under the Edit menu

01:43:16   if you don't want to remember this,

01:43:17   but you basically hold down Command + Option + Shift + V.

01:43:22   Yeah, so you know, Command + V is paste,

01:43:24   and then Command + Option + Shift + V is paste and match style.

01:43:27   I would also, I love, one of the things I turn on

01:43:30   on every Mac I use is, if you go into the Accessibility

01:43:34   Preference pane, you go to Zoom, and you check the box

01:43:37   that says Use Scroll Gesture with modifier keys to zoom,

01:43:41   and I use the Control key.

01:43:43   What this allows me to do is hold down the Control key

01:43:46   and do either a mouse wheel scroll or, you know,

01:43:48   whatever the scroll gesture is on your mouse or trackpad,

01:43:51   and that allows you to zoom in and see the entire screen

01:43:55   zoom in and out simply by holding down Control and scrolling

01:43:59   and this can be very useful to simply very quickly

01:44:01   make something big or to check, like,

01:44:03   if you're a developer working or a designer working

01:44:05   on pixel stuff, you can check alignment

01:44:07   a little bit more easily this way,

01:44:09   and it's so fast, you just hold down Control,

01:44:11   zoom in, zoom out, it's awesome.

01:44:13   And finally, one of the most common awesome power user

01:44:18   things to do on a Mac is take screenshots really quickly

01:44:20   with, as Casey mentioned, with the Command + Shift + 4

01:44:23   thing, and there's all the different variations of that

01:44:26   that you can use to either copy to, you know,

01:44:28   copy a selected region or output it to a file,

01:44:32   whatever else, any of those, including number four,

01:44:35   any of those that make you select a region first,

01:44:38   where you drag out the box to select,

01:44:40   if instead you hover over a window with your mouse

01:44:45   and you hit the space bar, it turns the cursor

01:44:50   into a little camera, and if you click,

01:44:53   it will capture just that window, it'll capture an image

01:44:56   of just that window with a drop shadow behind it

01:44:59   and nothing else, and there's actually,

01:45:01   there's some weird prefs that you can do

01:45:02   to disable a drop shadow if you want to, look it up,

01:45:04   but it's really, really nice if you wanna take a screenshot

01:45:09   of just a window to hit Command + Shift + 4,

01:45:12   whatever it is, hit space bar, click the window.

01:45:16   It's awesome.

01:45:17   - Yeah, that's what I usually do.

01:45:18   There is a Command + Shift + 5 now that I think is new

01:45:21   in Catalina that lets you do some even more advanced stuff,

01:45:24   but I always forget it exists, and it's become just

01:45:27   such muscle memory for me to do Command + Shift + 4 space.

01:45:30   I also was thinking as you were talking,

01:45:32   there's another one that we talked about very recently

01:45:35   that is specific to Xcode.

01:45:37   It is, let me get this right,

01:45:39   it is Shift + Command + Option + Control + C,

01:45:44   which, what is it called in the menu?

01:45:48   It is called copy qualified symbol name,

01:45:50   and what that lets you do is if you have a function

01:45:54   or a message or whatever, it will copy basically the type

01:45:58   that it's a part of, the name of the function,

01:46:01   and then the parameters to that function.

01:46:03   So let's say you're putting something in, I don't know,

01:46:06   like a GitHub PR or something like that, or a GitHub issue.

01:46:09   You can say, oh, you know, foo class dot do stuff,

01:46:13   parenthesis stuff colon or whatever,

01:46:15   it's a terrible example, this is an audio show,

01:46:17   it's very hard to describe, you get my point.

01:46:20   It's a really, even though it's like the claw,

01:46:22   I think that's when we were talking about it,

01:46:23   for the whatever it was, claw, the save for web claw

01:46:25   or whatever it is, it's a very similar motion,

01:46:28   but it's really, really convenient to get a summarized

01:46:31   version of a method that you're working in.

01:46:34   - And I also wanna double down on the control mouse wheel

01:46:36   for Zoom, I always turn that on almost immediately

01:46:39   and it comes in handy every single day.

01:46:41   John, do we have enough time to go through your list?

01:46:43   Could you perhaps bring it down to about 100 entries

01:46:45   if possible?

01:46:46   - I didn't even prepare a list,

01:46:48   I'll just go off the top of my head.

01:46:50   Well, first I'll amend some of your lists.

01:46:52   So you listed the command shift four under finder,

01:46:55   that's not a finder shortcut, you can quit the finder

01:46:58   and I'm pretty sure that still works.

01:47:00   - Fair.

01:47:00   - Just to be clear on the screenshot,

01:47:01   there's command shift three is the whole screen,

01:47:03   command shift four is select a region or space bar

01:47:05   to get a window, command shift five gives you the menu

01:47:08   with all the options in particular.

01:47:10   One of the options you might be interested in

01:47:11   if you're taking screenshots is the command shift five thing

01:47:14   has a little options menu that lets you set it,

01:47:17   whether you want the cursor to be visible or not.

01:47:20   Sometimes you don't want the cursor to be visible,

01:47:21   which I think is the default, but occasionally you do

01:47:23   if say you're making a screenshot for the app store

01:47:26   and you're pulling down a menu.

01:47:27   If you don't have the cursor visible,

01:47:28   it looks like a disembodied menu coming down with no--

01:47:31   - Oh, that's cool, I didn't know that.

01:47:33   - There used to be a utility,

01:47:34   it might still be there called grab

01:47:35   that would give timed screenshots,

01:47:37   but I think you can also do that

01:47:38   from the command shift five thing now too.

01:47:40   The reason why you'd want timed

01:47:41   is because you want to manipulate the UI

01:47:43   and get it into a state where if you were to hit a keystroke

01:47:46   it would screw up the state so you have a timer countdown.

01:47:48   Anyway, lots of options for screenshotting.

01:47:51   Paste and match style, there are a couple of apps,

01:47:55   I think it might have been Microsoft apps,

01:47:56   I don't wanna blame them about checking,

01:47:57   but I ran across a couple of apps or a suite of apps

01:48:00   that didn't use the normal paste and match style

01:48:03   keyboard shortcut, they did command shift V,

01:48:05   I'm like what the hell?

01:48:06   Like as I kept trying to do paste and match style

01:48:07   nothing would happen.

01:48:09   I know a lot of people who are just sick

01:48:12   of working this way, remap paste and match style

01:48:16   to command V.

01:48:17   If you do that, it actually covers

01:48:19   a surprising amount of cases.

01:48:21   So in system preferences, in the keyboard preference pane,

01:48:23   believe it or not, there's a shortcuts area

01:48:25   where you can set keyboard shortcuts

01:48:28   to a corresponding menu command in any application.

01:48:30   You just type exactly the keyboard command as it appears,

01:48:34   even if it's buried 20 levels deep,

01:48:35   you just type the name exactly, the name of the thing,

01:48:38   which means you'll have to learn how to type in ellipsis,

01:48:39   it's command semicolon,

01:48:41   you may have learned to type in ellipsis,

01:48:44   exactly match that text and you can set a keyboard grant.

01:48:46   So if you do paste and match style with the same case

01:48:50   and spacing and everything and assigned it to command V

01:48:54   and unassigned it from paste,

01:48:56   every time you hit command V in an application

01:48:58   that supports paste and match file,

01:48:59   it will paste and match style.

01:49:00   I don't go that far, I'm so used to doing the big,

01:49:02   you know, multi-key thing that I don't bother with,

01:49:05   but some people do.

01:49:07   Shortcuts that I enjoy, let's see.

01:49:08   I'm trying to think of things that people might not know

01:49:12   'cause they're old,

01:49:13   'cause those are things people tend not to think about.

01:49:16   Some of these are less reliable over the time,

01:49:18   but they still mostly work.

01:49:19   One of them is, since the days of classic Mac OS,

01:49:22   if you begin a drag, in theory in any application,

01:49:26   but in practice, this is less and less reliable.

01:49:29   If you begin dragging something from somewhere to somewhere,

01:49:31   you can drag things from applications,

01:49:33   you can drag something to the finder,

01:49:34   anytime you're doing a drag thing.

01:49:35   - Hey. - Yeah.

01:49:38   And you find yourself in the middle of the drag operation

01:49:41   and you're like, I need to bail out of this.

01:49:42   Like I've, you know, I've spring-loaded my way

01:49:45   into a bunch of folders or I've command tabbed

01:49:48   while I've been dragging and that's another thing

01:49:50   you can do by the way, if you hit command tab

01:49:52   while you're in the middle of a drag,

01:49:53   you can actually drag the thing you're dragging

01:49:55   over the icon of the app you wanna switch to

01:49:57   in the command tab switcher.

01:49:58   - Oh, no way. - There's a whole bunch of,

01:49:59   yeah, there's a whole bunch of command.

01:50:01   It, oh, this is the thing about this.

01:50:03   I don't wanna be like, I can't believe people don't know this

01:50:05   feign surprise, like, oh, why does everybody not know

01:50:07   all these shortcuts?

01:50:08   But it really does surprise me,

01:50:10   like the subset of things that each person uses, right?

01:50:14   So like the things that you use every day

01:50:16   that you think everybody knows about,

01:50:18   but then you see somebody else using a Mac

01:50:19   and they're using none of your things,

01:50:21   but they're using a whole different set of things

01:50:22   that you don't know.

01:50:24   Anyway, to finish my point about the drag,

01:50:27   if you wanna bail on that drag,

01:50:30   it's very sometimes difficult to say, what do I do?

01:50:32   I'm holding, I'm basically holding this thing

01:50:35   in my mouse cursor and I can't get back,

01:50:38   easily get back to where it was,

01:50:39   like it's a file or something.

01:50:42   You wanna like put it back exactly where it was,

01:50:44   but if you don't find exactly where and you release,

01:50:46   like it'll land on your desktop or something

01:50:47   and you don't wanna move it to your desktop

01:50:49   and the Finder has undo and all sorts of other things.

01:50:51   But anyway, trying to find a safe place to let go

01:50:55   of a thing that you're dragging can be somewhat fraught.

01:50:58   This happens on, we've talked about this on iOS,

01:51:00   like you begin a multi-finger drag or something

01:51:02   and you're in the middle of it, it's like, what do I do?

01:51:04   If I release, that performs an action,

01:51:06   but there's no safe area in the screen

01:51:09   for me to release and say,

01:51:11   but just don't do what I was doing, just abort, abort.

01:51:14   Well, on the Mac, if you hit the escape key

01:51:17   while you were dragging, in theory,

01:51:19   in a well-behaved Mac application,

01:51:21   it will do exactly what you want.

01:51:22   You're still dragging,

01:51:23   you're still holding down the mouse button,

01:51:24   hit escape and it'll just be like, oh, nevermind.

01:51:27   I'm not, whatever it is you were doing,

01:51:28   I'm going to stop doing it.

01:51:29   You don't have to find a safe region to dump things.

01:51:32   If you are, by the way, looking for a safe region

01:51:34   and escape is not supported,

01:51:35   you can very often drag it onto the menu bar

01:51:36   and that will be a safe place to get rid of things.

01:51:39   Another shortcut, again, works spotally,

01:51:43   but I used it for many, many years and still do.

01:51:45   If you're in a Finder window and it's in list view,

01:51:49   and you want, or you have a list view Finder window,

01:51:52   and it's filled with a bunch of folders,

01:51:54   some of which are disclosed, some of which aren't,

01:51:56   you know, like it's just a giant forest of folders.

01:51:59   And you want to drag something into that folder.

01:52:02   But anytime you drag it over the window,

01:52:04   it starts like highlighting one of the folders.

01:52:06   You're like, no, I don't want it to be

01:52:08   in one of the folders that's inside this folder.

01:52:10   I want it to be a sibling to all of those folders.

01:52:12   I want it to just be in this window,

01:52:14   but it's just filled with too many folders.

01:52:16   How do I get this thing that I'm dragging

01:52:18   into this list view Finder window,

01:52:20   but just in the folder that that window represents,

01:52:23   not in any of the nested ones,

01:52:24   when every single pixel that I can drag it over

01:52:27   would have it ending up inside some other folder

01:52:29   that's either disclosed or not disclosed.

01:52:32   If you drag the item onto the column headings,

01:52:36   like name, date modified, or whatever,

01:52:39   again, in well-behaved variants of the Finder

01:52:42   and well-behaved views and situations,

01:52:44   that has historically been a way to drag something safely,

01:52:48   like a safe drop region, and it will say,

01:52:50   oh, I see you want this to be in this folder,

01:52:53   and you're not hovering over one of the other folders

01:52:55   that are in it, but you are within the realm of the window.

01:52:57   So just drag it onto the name column or whatever,

01:53:00   and it will go into that window.

01:53:02   Let's see, are there any other good ones I can think of?

01:53:05   That's a bunch of stuff with the option key

01:53:07   that I'd do without thinking about it.

01:53:09   In Switch Glass and front and center,

01:53:11   I have all these, if you go to the websites for them,

01:53:13   you can see all the different key combinations.

01:53:15   This is very difficult to convey in the app.

01:53:18   I don't have an overlay that tells you about them,

01:53:19   but basically there's tons of modifier keys

01:53:22   that you can hit when switching windows

01:53:26   and when clicking on things in Switch Glass,

01:53:28   and almost all those are copied

01:53:29   from things that are already in the OS.

01:53:30   So for example, if you hold down the option key

01:53:33   and click on a window belonging to another application,

01:53:36   it will hide the previous window or application behind you.

01:53:39   Like as you leave, the thing you just left will hide,

01:53:43   and the thing you're going to will appear.

01:53:45   That's, you know, you can do two things

01:53:46   in one motion that way, right?

01:53:49   Again, combined with my applications,

01:53:51   you know, modifies that behavior,

01:53:52   but that's extremely handy.

01:53:56   There's all the keyboard commands

01:53:58   for doing window hiding showing.

01:54:01   In the window menu, if you look at the window menu

01:54:03   in most applications, they'll have like hide

01:54:04   and hide others, command H, command option H.

01:54:08   Very handy.

01:54:09   Again, if you don't know those commands exist,

01:54:11   sometimes you're frustrating

01:54:12   to have so many different windows,

01:54:13   but there are commands you can type

01:54:15   to make windows appear and disappear.

01:54:17   - You know what really blew my mind

01:54:19   that hearing you talk about Finder made me think of?

01:54:22   What is the icon at the top of a window?

01:54:25   Is it the proxy icon?

01:54:26   Is that the right term for it?

01:54:28   So if you're looking at a Finder window,

01:54:30   and this is not unique to Finder,

01:54:31   but let's pick on Finder for a second.

01:54:32   - It's any standard document window in Mac OS.

01:54:35   - Yeah, there you go.

01:54:35   So again, I'll pick on Finder just because it's generic

01:54:39   and everyone has it.

01:54:40   You know, I'm looking at a folder,

01:54:41   and it happens to be called Development.

01:54:43   And so at the top of the Finder window,

01:54:45   there's a little blue folder.

01:54:45   Next to it, there's the word Development.

01:54:47   If you click and hold and then eventually drag that folder,

01:54:51   you are clicking, holding, and dragging

01:54:53   that Development folder, whatever it happens to be called.

01:54:56   So you can do things with it.

01:54:57   And like Marco said, you know,

01:54:59   that's also true of like a Word document or Pages document

01:55:03   and a whole bunch of other things.

01:55:05   And that, I forget that that exists a lot of the time,

01:55:08   but every time I remember it ends up saving my bacon

01:55:10   or making something a lot easier

01:55:11   than it would have been otherwise.

01:55:13   - Yeah, I saw some, you know,

01:55:16   this is me doing exactly what I said before,

01:55:19   being shocked at things that people don't know,

01:55:21   but there was some article,

01:55:21   I think it was actually talking about non-obvious things

01:55:23   in iPad OS, and they were like,

01:55:24   "Yeah, well, there's a bunch of non-obvious stuff

01:55:26   "on the Mac too.

01:55:27   "Like, I just found out recently

01:55:29   "that you can hold down the Command key

01:55:30   "and click on the title of a Finder window

01:55:32   "and get a pop-up menu that shows the hierarchy."

01:55:34   And it's like, you know, aren't people born knowing that?

01:55:37   And the answer is no, they're not born knowing that.

01:55:39   The only reason you notice, 'cause you've been doing it

01:55:41   on a Mac for umpteen million years,

01:55:43   but if you don't already know that,

01:55:45   it's not discoverable, and it's this thing

01:55:49   that I rarely see people do,

01:55:51   but old-school Mac users take it for granted

01:55:52   that you can do it.

01:55:53   Now, this was in the context of an article saying,

01:55:55   like, there was some feature, like,

01:55:57   I forgot, I think Gruber couldn't find, like,

01:55:58   or thought ListView didn't exist or something

01:56:00   on the Files app on iPad OS, and like,

01:56:02   "Oh, if you swipe down from the top of the screen,

01:56:04   "it shows a toolbar where you can pick the view."

01:56:05   And he's like, "How would I discover that?

01:56:06   "There's nothing on the screen

01:56:07   "indicating that I could do that."

01:56:09   And so someone was throwing this command click

01:56:11   on Finder title bar thing back at it,

01:56:15   but the thing is, you don't need to know that shortcut

01:56:18   to perform that operation in the Finder.

01:56:20   Just by clicking with a single mouse button,

01:56:22   you can navigate around, and you know,

01:56:24   selecting from the menu command to go to the, you know,

01:56:27   the computer item and drill down, like there,

01:56:29   it's not the primary way to navigate in the Finder.

01:56:32   You can never know that that command click menu

01:56:34   is in the Finder, and still successfully use the Finder

01:56:37   and use all its different views,

01:56:38   whereas the Files app on iPad OS,

01:56:41   if you don't know to swipe down from the top of the screen

01:56:43   to pull down a toolbar, you will think the app

01:56:45   literally doesn't have ListView feature.

01:56:47   Again, getting back to what we were talking about

01:56:48   many times in the past, the menu bar as a place to say,

01:56:53   "I don't know what this app can do.

01:56:55   "Let me look at some of the things that it can do,"

01:56:57   and you just go through all the menus,

01:56:58   and you'll see a menu called View,

01:57:00   which you might have, you know,

01:57:01   might be able to change the way Windows look,

01:57:03   and you'll see in View a bunch of options

01:57:05   for a different ListView, icon view,

01:57:07   and that's how you'll discover it.

01:57:09   It totally is discoverable, the fact that, you know,

01:57:12   there are shortcuts, and by the way,

01:57:13   it's discoverable with the shortcuts, of course,

01:57:14   'cause when you see the, you know, in the View menu,

01:57:16   you'll see, oh, look, there's as icons, as lists,

01:57:20   as columns, and they all have command keys,

01:57:22   command one, command two, command three,

01:57:23   and so not only do you learn those features exist,

01:57:25   but you also learn the shortcuts.

01:57:27   Yeah, I just spent all day on just some Finder ones,

01:57:31   command up and down arrow for navigating the hierarchy,

01:57:33   command option up and down arrow

01:57:34   to hide the thing behind you,

01:57:36   holding the option key when you double-click a folder

01:57:39   to, again, close the previous window behind you.

01:57:41   This is all old-school way of navigating.

01:57:43   I know everybody uses browser mode.

01:57:44   Anyway, I'll stop myself.

01:57:45   I could go on for ages,

01:57:46   but there are tons and tons of shortcuts in macOS.

01:57:49   The help in macOS, there's some kind of help document

01:57:52   in the built-in help that comes with the OS

01:57:55   that is just two pages of shortcuts.

01:57:58   I highly recommend people hunt that down

01:58:00   and just read it, because you'll probably learn something.

01:58:03   John Mitchell writes, "Is there a difference

01:58:05   "between using a Mac app's open whatever at login setting

01:58:08   "in its preferences versus adding it to system preferences,

01:58:11   "user and groups, login items?

01:58:13   "I feel like I'm fighting against the tide

01:58:14   "by wanting them all in one place,

01:58:16   "preferably in login items."

01:58:18   I would assume that the app's own open at login setting

01:58:23   does not necessarily need to go in login items,

01:58:27   but I don't know of any specific differences here,

01:58:30   so perhaps one of you guys do, maybe John?

01:58:33   - Yeah, this is a little miniature war story,

01:58:35   because both of my applications,

01:58:36   I wanted to have that little checkbox that says,

01:58:39   "Launch on login," or "Open when I log in," or whatever,

01:58:41   'cause they're both the kind of application

01:58:42   where you'd wanna do that.

01:58:44   And everyone knows login items, or everyone, whatever.

01:58:46   A lot of people know login items.

01:58:47   If you go to system preferences and the user and groups thing

01:58:50   like, and you go to your user,

01:58:51   there's a little login items tab,

01:58:52   and there's a list of things

01:58:53   that are going to launch when you log in,

01:58:54   and you can drag things into it

01:58:56   and add little plus/minus keys, right?

01:58:59   But sometime a couple years ago,

01:59:03   you started to see applications, Mac applications,

01:59:05   that would have a little checkbox in their preference

01:59:06   that said "Launch on login,"

01:59:08   but then if you went to your login items,

01:59:10   you wouldn't see it there.

01:59:11   It'd be like, "Huh, why is that not showing up there?

01:59:15   "It does launch on login.

01:59:16   "The checkbox works, but I don't see it in that thing."

01:59:18   So when it came time for me to add launch on login

01:59:21   to my app, my first app, front and center,

01:59:23   I looked it up, "Hey, how do you do launch on login?"

01:59:25   And you find a bunch of older answers that say,

01:59:28   "Oh, here's how you do it.

01:59:29   "Here's how you add it to the login items list," right?

01:59:32   It's just a plist, you just add your thing to it,

01:59:34   and you go to System Preferences,

01:59:35   there'll be your little app icon,

01:59:36   and it'll launch on login, right?

01:59:38   Like so many things having to do with the Mac,

01:59:41   the reason this changed is good old sandboxing.

01:59:44   In a sandboxing world, it's not a situation

01:59:47   where all these random Mac applications

01:59:49   can access this plist that is not in their containers.

01:59:53   The login items plist doesn't belong to any one application.

01:59:55   It's community-owned,

01:59:58   and if you wanted to get it that plist,

01:59:59   and wanted to have permission to edit it,

02:00:01   you'd have to throw up a permission dialog

02:00:03   or have full disk access or do all sorts of things

02:00:05   that sandboxing makes much more difficult.

02:00:08   So to get around that, Apple came up with a new way

02:00:12   for you to make your application launch on login,

02:00:15   and it's an API that you can call,

02:00:17   but it's not as simple as like,

02:00:20   "Oh, I'll just call this API

02:00:21   "and my app will be launched on login."

02:00:24   The API that you call,

02:00:26   the app that you're calling it from,

02:00:28   you cannot call that API to make the app

02:00:31   that you're calling it from launch on login.

02:00:34   You can only call that API to make some other app

02:00:37   launch on login.

02:00:38   I'm sure there's some security--

02:00:39   - Why?

02:00:40   - I'm sure there's some kind of security reason for this.

02:00:44   Honestly, I don't understand it.

02:00:46   I'm 100% cargo-coulting this.

02:00:47   I'm Googling for the answer to my question.

02:00:49   I'm finding it.

02:00:50   The actual answer is you have to make another target

02:00:53   in your application.

02:00:54   It will be a launcher application

02:00:56   whose sole job is to launch your actual application,

02:01:00   and you embed that inside your app bundle.

02:01:02   So if you look inside front and center

02:01:03   or you look inside Switch Glass,

02:01:05   you will find a tiny application inside both of them

02:01:07   called front and center launcher or Switch Glass launcher,

02:01:10   and the only thing in the code of that application

02:01:13   is code that will launch the real application.

02:01:15   - So you've actually made four apps.

02:01:17   - Yeah, exactly.

02:01:18   I totally did, and then kill itself,

02:01:21   and then from the main application,

02:01:24   you tell the other application to tell it

02:01:26   that it should launch your application.

02:01:28   From the main application,

02:01:30   you tell it to launch the launcher application on login.

02:01:32   So the thing that's actually launching a login

02:01:34   is not my application.

02:01:35   It's the launcher application,

02:01:36   and the launcher application launches,

02:01:37   and then it launches my real application,

02:01:39   and then my real application kills the launcher.

02:01:41   - Oh my goodness.

02:01:42   - It's a hell of a, you know, this was like,

02:01:44   I'm gonna add this one little feature, right?

02:01:46   This is why this is a miniature war story.

02:01:47   I'm just gonna add that checkbox.

02:01:48   Really easy to do.

02:01:49   Okay, now I just gotta call whatever API to launch on login.

02:01:52   It's like, I have to make an embedded target?

02:01:54   What, and then how do I make sure the signing works?

02:01:57   And then, you know, one of the many rookie mistakes I made

02:02:01   was the deployment target for my embedded launcher

02:02:05   was different from my application, right?

02:02:07   I hadn't decided on the deployment targets or whatever,

02:02:09   so like the deployment target was the default,

02:02:11   which was like 10.15 on front and center.

02:02:13   So front and center's the minimum version is like 10.12.

02:02:16   So front and center could run on 12,

02:02:18   but the launcher could only run 10.15.

02:02:20   So anyone who was running on earlier than 10.15,

02:02:24   like I clicked the launch on login and it never launches

02:02:26   'cause the launcher would start to run and it'll be like,

02:02:29   oh, your version of the OS is too old, I won't run.

02:02:32   Anyway, all this is to say the current system is bad.

02:02:37   Having everybody group edit a random shared P list

02:02:40   is also bad.

02:02:42   I just hope they come up with a better system that,

02:02:46   you know, 'cause what you want is you want it to be secure

02:02:48   in whatever ways they need it to be secure.

02:02:49   You don't want to have to write an embedded

02:02:51   launcher application, but also it would be nice

02:02:53   to this person's point to be able to look at login items

02:02:56   or a single place in the GUI and see here's all the things

02:02:59   that are gonna launch on login.

02:03:00   'Cause now it's like dark matter, you have no idea

02:03:02   other than by going to the application

02:03:04   and seeing that checkbox, I don't know where to find

02:03:06   a list of things that are configured to launch on login,

02:03:08   but not using login items.

02:03:10   So that is, let's say in a transitional period

02:03:12   and I hope they improve it.

02:03:14   - And finally, and this is either gonna take three seconds

02:03:19   or another hour, Nicholas Gaffney writes,

02:03:22   "You have to use one of your co-hosts main work machines

02:03:24   for a week with minimal changes to preferences,

02:03:27   apps, et cetera.

02:03:28   Who do you choose?

02:03:30   Bonus, which host would you trust more

02:03:32   to use your main Mac for a week?"

02:03:35   I will start, I will get everyone angry at me first.

02:03:39   I think I would want to use Marco's iMac Pro

02:03:45   because I think it's going to be most similar

02:03:49   to my own setup.

02:03:51   Now I saw John unmute, so I have a feeling

02:03:53   he's about to argue with me.

02:03:55   - How dare you, how dare you.

02:03:57   (laughing)

02:03:59   - I-- - My screen is bigger

02:04:01   and brighter.

02:04:02   - Yes, but-- - I have more internal

02:04:03   storage, I have more cores.

02:04:06   - You have more RAM.

02:04:07   - Yeah, you have more RAM.

02:04:08   I'm too scared of your setup though, John.

02:04:09   Like, look at, why do you have a second dock

02:04:12   in the corner of your screen?

02:04:13   There's no need for that.

02:04:14   You don't need that, John, you don't need it.

02:04:16   - You don't need to see the screen so big

02:04:18   it'll be in your peripheral vision.

02:04:19   (laughing)

02:04:21   You can turn on auto-hide.

02:04:25   - Yeah, that's also true.

02:04:26   So I think it is most likely, 'cause it's been a long time,

02:04:29   but I've seen Marco's computer and I've seen him use it

02:04:32   very, very briefly and it looked like a reasonably vanilla

02:04:36   Mac OS installation, to the point that I feel like

02:04:39   I could work with it, whereas I think John

02:04:42   is probably customizing his setup to the ends

02:04:46   of the earth and back and it scares me.

02:04:48   And more important than anything else,

02:04:49   I think John would be a lot less forgiving

02:04:53   to me changing anything on his computer,

02:04:57   whereas, not to say Marco would be excellent about this,

02:05:00   but I think Marco, you would be more forgiving

02:05:02   about me changing things if necessary.

02:05:04   Who would I trust most to use my main Mac for a week?

02:05:08   I am actually going to continue to pick on John

02:05:09   and say I would trust Marco, because I think John

02:05:11   would not be able to control himself.

02:05:13   - I would fix it as well.

02:05:14   - That's the thing, John would not be able to control himself.

02:05:17   - But it would be fixed when I was done.

02:05:19   Yeah, by whose definition of fixed?

02:05:21   - Exactly.

02:05:21   - As in you'd be able to use it to record podcasts

02:05:24   without it screwing up in the world.

02:05:25   - Ooh, sick burn.

02:05:26   - That's what I mean.

02:05:27   I'm not meaning I would change your settings,

02:05:28   I mean I would debug your problem.

02:05:30   - All right, if that's the case, if that's the deal,

02:05:33   then I'll switch my answer to John.

02:05:34   But in general, I'm too scared, and I think Marco

02:05:37   knows exactly where I'm coming from,

02:05:38   I'm too scared that you would fix it for the definition

02:05:40   of now I'm running front and center in Switch Glass,

02:05:43   and I've got all sorts of things, I've got Perl installed.

02:05:45   - I would fix your scroll, I would change your scroll

02:05:47   direction to the problem.

02:05:48   - Oh no, you monster.

02:05:50   - I mean, it says minimal changes to settings,

02:05:53   I think we're allowed to change the scroll direction

02:05:55   if any of us are using the terrible quote unquote

02:05:57   natural direction.

02:05:58   - You mean the correct direction, which is natural.

02:06:00   Anyway, that is my answer.

02:06:02   All right Marco, it's your turn to get picked on.

02:06:04   What would you do?

02:06:05   - I was basically gonna say you for both of those

02:06:08   exact same reasons, both directions, you using my computer

02:06:12   and me using your computer for the exact same reasons

02:06:14   of like, A, I do run a fairly vanilla setup,

02:06:19   and I think John runs a much more customizable

02:06:23   than either of us, and so I would both want my setup

02:06:28   to be altered as little as possible, and I think

02:06:31   if John was using my computer, I think he would have

02:06:34   a lot more complaints, and that would result in him

02:06:37   fixing my computer, and secondly, I wouldn't want to use his

02:06:42   because I'd be afraid of messing it up.

02:06:45   - Yep.

02:06:46   - You'd both be on guest accounts, it's not like you'd be

02:06:48   on my account.

02:06:49   (laughing)

02:06:50   Like it says, it doesn't specify, but I'm assuming

02:06:53   it means like you're not using that person's account.

02:06:55   Like you'd have your own account.

02:06:57   - No, I took it as, you know, obviously we would never

02:06:59   want to share passwords or whatever, but in this

02:07:00   hypothetical scenario, I am sitting down on the Marco user

02:07:04   on Marco's computer, or the John user on John's computer,

02:07:06   whatever the case may be, and so I am literally using

02:07:09   your setup.

02:07:10   - Hmm, but then if we don't have each other's passwords,

02:07:12   then how would we update our--

02:07:13   - Just go with it, John.

02:07:14   - How would we update our Apple ID settings,

02:07:15   which would be prompted for at least once or twice

02:07:17   during the week?

02:07:18   - Oh, that's a good point.

02:07:19   (laughing)

02:07:19   I guess--

02:07:20   - Are you both getting that prompt, or is that just me?

02:07:22   - Just you?

02:07:23   - No.

02:07:23   - Yeah, it comes up occasionally.

02:07:25   You know what I'm talking about, right?

02:07:27   - Oh yeah.

02:07:28   - It'll be like a notification that says your Apple ID

02:07:30   settings need to be updated, and it will, if you click on it

02:07:33   it will launch system preferences, and it will go to the

02:07:35   Apple ID thing, and there'll be a thing that says you need

02:07:37   to update your thing, and then it'll make you enter your

02:07:39   Apple ID password, and then you wait a little bit,

02:07:41   and then it'll make you enter your Mac password,

02:07:42   and you wait a little bit, and then it goes away.

02:07:44   - Yeah, I have had that happen for sure, but it doesn't

02:07:46   happen as frequently as it sounds like yours does.

02:07:48   - I got many to ask about this on Twitter, but I'll do it

02:07:51   now on the podcast.

02:07:52   If you work for Apple on iCloud, and you know what the hell

02:07:55   that thing is, please tell us, because I do it every,

02:07:58   you know, few weeks, and every time I do it I'm like,

02:08:02   what are you doing thing?

02:08:03   I haven't changed anything related to my Apple ID.

02:08:06   I don't know what you're prompting me for, I mean, okay,

02:08:08   I'll enter my Apple ID password, and then I'll enter my Mac

02:08:11   password, and then you'll go away, but I don't know why

02:08:13   you were ever here, and it makes me think it's server

02:08:16   related, because I think like when Catalina first came out,

02:08:18   there was a day where everyone was getting prompted for it,

02:08:21   like 100 times a day, like you'd do it, and then it would

02:08:23   come back five minutes later, right, and I'm like,

02:08:26   this has got to be a server side thing, because this is not

02:08:27   client cycle, anyway, so if you know what that is

02:08:30   definitively and can tell us, and you know, as an extra

02:08:33   credit can tell us if there's anything we can do about

02:08:35   stopping it, although I assume there isn't, because I assume

02:08:37   it's a server side thing, please tell us.

02:08:40   - Alright, John, so who's getting in trouble?

02:08:44   - Well, you know, I think what's going on said, but I'll

02:08:46   say it, no one wants to use Casey's computer, because it's

02:08:48   broken all the time.

02:08:49   (laughing)

02:08:50   No one has picked your computer yet, I know it's just

02:08:52   Mark, but I'm also not gonna, it's just three of us,

02:08:56   so there's limited choices, I can't pick my own computer,

02:08:58   and I'm sure as hell not gonna pick yours,

02:08:59   because nothing works.

02:09:00   (laughing)

02:09:01   The OS constantly has to be reinstalled, and then the

02:09:04   track pad is stuttering, and you can't record podcasts

02:09:06   on it, and who wants to use it, and then when it was

02:09:08   working, you can't do Swift UI with a live preview,

02:09:10   because it's on Mojave, like no one wants to use that thing.

02:09:13   - Aw, come on, man.

02:09:14   - I mean, that's true, and I was assuming we would be on

02:09:16   our own account, so I'd have to say I'd be on Margos,

02:09:18   and honestly, I don't customize my computer, you know,

02:09:21   like there's, I have fewer menu bar icons than you do,

02:09:24   Casey, so there's that, right, I mean, what am I,

02:09:27   if I look at my menu bar right now, I've got Mountain,

02:09:29   Payspot, my two apps, Twitterrific, and the stupid

02:09:33   Skype thing that I can't get rid of, and then I have

02:09:35   Time Machine, Wi-Fi, like, sound, and then the sidecar

02:09:40   thingamabobber, plus like my name and the date, like,

02:09:43   I'm not running any kind of system extensions,

02:09:46   other than, I think I'm running Typinator as my

02:09:51   autocomplete thingy, is there anything else?

02:09:56   No, I mentioned Payspot, that's it.

02:09:58   I customized new folder to Command + N in the Finder,

02:10:02   because I'm a sane person, and I have the proper

02:10:04   scroll direction, like, that's the extent of my

02:10:06   customization, like, it's not that weird, anyway,

02:10:10   I'd pick Margos, I've used Margos computer briefly,

02:10:12   I would really dislike his mouse, but, you know,

02:10:17   what can you do?

02:10:18   And his weird keyboard, I can't type on split keyboards,

02:10:21   but I would survive, but I have some confidence that it

02:10:24   would stay up and be reliable during the time that

02:10:26   I was forced to use it.

02:10:27   - You're so mean to me.

02:10:29   - Hey, this computer hasn't barfed yet in the last

02:10:32   two hours, 10 minutes, and 24 seconds.

02:10:35   - You may have solved the problem.

02:10:38   That problem.

02:10:39   - We'll see.

02:10:39   - Yeah, I feel like this question is limiting,

02:10:42   because there's only three of us, so you only have

02:10:43   the choice of two other things, and one of them

02:10:45   is Casey's computer, in our case.

02:10:47   (laughing)

02:10:48   I just can't believe neither one of you picked this thing,

02:10:50   'cause it is a champion.

02:10:52   - It's because of you, John, it's because of you.

02:10:54   - Well, I guess you use a guest account, there's limited

02:10:57   damage you can do.

02:10:58   - Also, the other problem, using your computer, John,

02:11:01   is that I might get used to the 6K, and then I'd have

02:11:04   to buy one, and I really don't want that to happen.

02:11:06   - No, you'll totally get used to it.

02:11:08   Like, I mentioned the day that I got it, it was like,

02:11:10   so big, I don't know where to look, and then it just

02:11:11   becomes normal, so fast.

02:11:13   And then I go to my wife's iMac, I'm like, what is this

02:11:15   little 12 inch computer here?

02:11:18   It's not that much smaller, but I go over to it,

02:11:20   and it looks small, like the chin looks bigger,

02:11:23   the screen looks smaller, it's so depressing how instantly

02:11:28   you get used to even a slightly bigger screen.

02:11:31   I do wonder what the limits are, though, like I feel like

02:11:34   if, you know, 42 inches at this distance, would that be

02:11:37   outside my peripheral vision?

02:11:39   - Oh my goodness.

02:11:40   - I could use more height.

02:11:41   - Oh my goodness.

02:11:42   - Thanks to our sponsors this week, Squarespace,

02:11:45   Collide, and Away, and we will talk to you next week.

02:11:51   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

02:11:54   ♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

02:11:56   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

02:11:58   ♪ Accidental ♪

02:11:59   ♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪

02:12:00   ♪ Accidental ♪

02:12:02   ♪ John didn't do any research ♪

02:12:04   ♪ Marco and Casey wouldn't let him ♪

02:12:07   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

02:12:08   ♪ Accidental ♪

02:12:09   ♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪

02:12:11   ♪ Accidental ♪

02:12:12   ♪ And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM ♪

02:12:17   ♪ And if you're into Twitter ♪

02:12:20   ♪ You can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S ♪

02:12:25   ♪ So that's Casey Liss ♪

02:12:28   ♪ M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M ♪

02:12:31   ♪ N-T-M-A-R-C-O-R-M-N ♪

02:12:33   ♪ S-I-R-A-C ♪

02:12:36   ♪ U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A ♪

02:12:38   ♪ It's accidental ♪

02:12:40   ♪ It's accidental ♪

02:12:42   ♪ They didn't mean to accidental ♪

02:12:45   ♪ Accidental ♪

02:12:46   ♪ Tech podcast ♪

02:12:51   - So in the last 24, 48 hours,

02:12:55   there has been a discovery, maybe an announcement,

02:12:59   about a new BMW logo.

02:13:01   Now, it is not clear to me, maybe it's clear to others,

02:13:04   that is this just for their new i4,

02:13:08   which is like their new electric car,

02:13:09   or is this going to be embraced across the line?

02:13:11   I'm not sure.

02:13:13   If you look at the image,

02:13:14   we'll put a link in the show notes,

02:13:15   if you look at the image as presented

02:13:18   next to the current logo, it looks like garbage.

02:13:23   But when you see it on the hood of a car,

02:13:25   I don't think it looks bad.

02:13:26   And I seem to be in the minority,

02:13:27   I think pretty much everyone hates it,

02:13:29   but I think it's pretty good.

02:13:31   I like it a lot more than I like

02:13:32   the flattened Volkswagen logo,

02:13:34   which just does not look right to me.

02:13:36   Jon, how do you feel about this?

02:13:38   - So first of all, I think it is official everywhere.

02:13:42   If you go to the actual BMW page

02:13:43   and not the umpteen stories about it,

02:13:45   you'll see their explanation,

02:13:46   presumably translated from German.

02:13:49   And they show the history of the logo.

02:13:50   Here's the good.

02:13:51   The good is the BMW logo has not changed much

02:13:55   over the years, it's always been a little circle

02:13:56   with the propeller thing in it,

02:13:57   it's got the letters BMW,

02:13:59   has basically been the same.

02:14:02   They've changed the details of like,

02:14:04   are there little rings around the rings

02:14:06   and what color are the letters

02:14:07   and how dark blue are the little propeller things

02:14:10   on the inside, but it hasn't changed that much.

02:14:14   The new one, exactly the same shape,

02:14:16   letters BMW, the propeller thing, right?

02:14:19   The difference is that,

02:14:21   and they don't say this in the thing,

02:14:22   but I can see in the application of the logo,

02:14:26   the outer ring that says BMW is basically now transparent,

02:14:30   like a transparent thing.

02:14:32   Whatever the background is shows through

02:14:34   and the ring around the outside is white

02:14:36   and the letters are white

02:14:36   and the propeller is still blue and white

02:14:38   and that everything else is transparent.

02:14:40   So when they put it on the car,

02:14:41   you see body color through the ring.

02:14:43   But when you see it and their little logo thing,

02:14:46   it shows it next to a bunch of other logos

02:14:48   where that ring used to be black

02:14:50   and they put it on a gray background.

02:14:51   So what you see is a gray ring with white letters

02:14:55   and then the propeller in the middle.

02:14:57   And I think that looks bad.

02:15:00   Not super bad 'cause it's still,

02:15:01   like it's basically the same logo.

02:15:02   It's not like they stylized it and made it all 90s

02:15:05   and added drop shadows or whatever.

02:15:06   It's fairly straightforward, but it's weaker.

02:15:09   It has lower contrast, it has less personality

02:15:12   and it looks somewhat incomplete.

02:15:13   When you see it on a car and the body color shows through,

02:15:16   it can kinda look cool depending on the body color.

02:15:19   Now suddenly the body color you choose for your car

02:15:22   influences how the logo looks.

02:15:24   In context on the car, I still think it looks mostly okay,

02:15:27   especially like did you see the new eye logo?

02:15:29   They have a new logo for the eye.

02:15:31   - I don't understand. - Series of cars in it.

02:15:32   It's a nice matchup for that.

02:15:34   It's all very 2D and flat.

02:15:35   Like if you look at the last logo revision that in 1997,

02:15:38   it's filled with 3D shading and all sorts of sort of,

02:15:42   people would say skeuomorphic details,

02:15:43   but they don't know what the word skeuomorphic means.

02:15:45   But it looks like iOS 6, let's put it that way.

02:15:47   The 1997 logo looks like iOS 6,

02:15:50   and the new logo doesn't look like iOS 7, but it's closer.

02:15:53   Everything is flat, there is no shading,

02:15:55   everything is solid color.

02:15:57   I am not sold on the transparency.

02:15:59   I think someone came up with that idea

02:16:00   and thought it was interesting and clever

02:16:02   and convinced people it was a good idea.

02:16:05   I am not convinced it's a good idea.

02:16:07   - Yeah, 'cause you mentioned how this logo progress image

02:16:12   here showing it against a gray background,

02:16:14   and it doesn't look good against gray.

02:16:16   You know what's a really common color for cars?

02:16:18   - That's so true. - Shades of gray.

02:16:21   - Oh, well, it's gonna look high on white.

02:16:22   - Right, I think it's going to,

02:16:25   I think it has a pretty good chance of looking good on black

02:16:29   because that will most closely approximate

02:16:31   the way it's looked forever.

02:16:32   - But it'll be weird though,

02:16:34   because the black will be sunken,

02:16:35   'cause that'll be like body metal.

02:16:38   - Yeah, I think it'll look okay on black

02:16:40   and very dark colors.

02:16:42   It might look okay on straight and white,

02:16:44   but it probably won't look good on any silver

02:16:48   or medium gray, which they sell a lot of.

02:16:51   And yeah, I don't know, it's just,

02:16:53   I see this and I think this is an interesting idea

02:16:58   to change the logo, to modernize it,

02:17:01   but this isn't how I would have done it,

02:17:03   and I don't think it works.

02:17:04   I don't think it's successful.

02:17:05   I don't think it looks good.

02:17:07   The good news is that when you see it on the i4,

02:17:12   the rest of the i4 is so hideous looking

02:17:15   that you immediately forget about the logo.

02:17:17   - Oh, that's not so bad.

02:17:18   - It's all right.

02:17:19   - It looks better than the i3.

02:17:20   - Well, the grill is truly and utterly terrible.

02:17:24   Like the grill, it's not quite Lexus bad,

02:17:28   but it is right on the edge of Lexus bad.

02:17:30   - But in the grand scheme of ugly grills,

02:17:32   have you seen like the new Genesis grills

02:17:34   and like there's a whole bunch of just really awful grills

02:17:37   that are coming out.

02:17:38   The i4 is not great, but like of all of the usually awful

02:17:43   BMW concept car treatments of the kidney grill,

02:17:46   this one is about middle of the road

02:17:49   'cause I've seen some worse ones.

02:17:50   But yeah, this is a big trend and I don't understand it

02:17:52   because like in the i4, the actual physical trend

02:17:56   is you don't need air coming in when you have electric cars,

02:17:58   so why you need a big gaping hole in the front?

02:18:00   Yeah, people still wanna put a big gaping hole

02:18:02   and they plug it like the first Tesla Model S

02:18:05   with this big black thing that says,

02:18:07   yeah, there's a hole here, but we don't need the hole,

02:18:09   so let's put a plug in it.

02:18:10   Tesla figured that out at least fairly quickly

02:18:12   and said, no, we're not gonna do that.

02:18:14   But all these other companies,

02:18:16   they're like their signature is the front grill

02:18:18   or they want it to be the front grill.

02:18:20   Like Lexus, their new design trend

02:18:22   of having this massive gaping mesh thing in the front.

02:18:24   Genesis with the similar style

02:18:27   where they're trying to define their style

02:18:29   by this massive gaping grill.

02:18:30   This is not the time to have a huge grill.

02:18:32   You know when you go electric it's gonna be pointless.

02:18:35   Don't make that your brand identity.

02:18:37   - You know, I'm watching,

02:18:38   this is now on the BMW Concept i4 page.

02:18:42   There's a 30-second video.

02:18:44   I didn't realize that in the ridiculously huge grill,

02:18:48   it says i4 within it, which is whatever, fine, it lights up.

02:18:53   Like the godawful terrible Mercedes logos that light up.

02:18:56   - I'm seeing that now, oh, that's bad.

02:18:57   I mean, yeah, this is not the actual car.

02:18:59   This is a Concept car.

02:19:00   - I know, I know.

02:19:01   - But yeah, they better not ship that.

02:19:03   - Yeah, the Mercedes logo is so bad when it's illuminated.

02:19:06   Like the regular Mercedes logo as is fine.

02:19:08   It's good, I like it.

02:19:09   But illuminating it is just a look at me

02:19:12   and my fancy-ass Mercedes.

02:19:13   Aren't I cool?

02:19:15   - I feel like Mercedes has the,

02:19:16   I mean, BMW has the wisdom to not change their logo radically

02:19:19   but even now I feel like they're giving in a little bit.

02:19:21   Mercedes like understands.

02:19:23   You can do lots of different treatments

02:19:25   with the three-pointed star,

02:19:26   but don't one day say, you know what,

02:19:28   we're adding a fourth point

02:19:29   or we're making the star fatter or whatever.

02:19:31   Like it's more or less,

02:19:33   I bet if you saw the Mercedes like three-prong logo,

02:19:38   it would look like the BMW thing.

02:19:40   And they're like, over the years,

02:19:41   it more or less stays the same.

02:19:41   But if you look at any individual Mercedes,

02:19:43   those wide variations in how they treat that logo.

02:19:47   And I feel like BMW had the same advantage

02:19:50   in that they had lots of,

02:19:52   their logo was a little circle

02:19:54   that was basically a neutral colored black circle

02:19:56   with letters BMW.

02:19:58   And a slight accent of blue in the middle.

02:20:01   And that was fine and it matched everything

02:20:03   and it looked good.

02:20:04   Like it was not broken.

02:20:05   It did not need to be fixed.

02:20:06   - Yeah, it says BMW Concept I4.

02:20:10   It is lit up in the grill.

02:20:12   It is lit up, the word BMW Concept I4.

02:20:14   - I'm thinking that's not gonna ship.

02:20:15   - I hope not.

02:20:16   But I mean, would you wanna drive a billboard?

02:20:18   I mean, the illuminated Mercedes logo makes me so angry,

02:20:22   but this is so much worse.

02:20:25   - A lot of cars have shipped with the thing

02:20:26   where you open the door

02:20:27   and it projects like the name of the car company

02:20:29   or the model on the ground.

02:20:30   Have you seen those?

02:20:31   - Oh God.

02:20:31   - Cars shipped with that.

02:20:33   That's not just a concept car thing.

02:20:34   But yeah, if you look at this concept car,

02:20:36   there's a lot of those things in this car

02:20:37   that are not shipping for sure.

02:20:38   I hope not.

02:20:39   - It's also too bad to me because one of the things

02:20:41   that I always admire BMW for, which is silly,

02:20:44   but I really thought their angel eyes were amazing.

02:20:47   So if you're not familiar,

02:20:48   early on, it was maybe late 90s or something like that.

02:20:52   I don't remember exactly when,

02:20:53   but BMW headlights, they for a long time were four circles.

02:20:58   And what they did is they had like a ring

02:21:00   around the outside of each of the headlights

02:21:02   that would light up.

02:21:03   And that was their daytime running lights.

02:21:05   And they called them angel eyes.

02:21:06   And they were, to my recollection anyway,

02:21:09   the first manufacturer to do a treatment of their lights,

02:21:12   particularly daytime running lights,

02:21:13   that was a signature thing, right?

02:21:16   So you saw those four circles coming at you.

02:21:18   You knew that that was a BMW.

02:21:20   And it was within five or 10 years

02:21:21   that basically every other auto manufacturer in the world

02:21:23   started doing the same thing.

02:21:24   But they seem to have given up on the four circles.

02:21:27   And I suppose that probably makes sense

02:21:30   from a technological point of view.

02:21:31   But to me, I actually almost feel like,

02:21:34   especially in the age of electric cars,

02:21:36   coming back to what you were saying, Jon,

02:21:37   like can the kidney grill, like yes,

02:21:40   I know that's blasphemous, but can the kidney grill

02:21:43   and keep the angel eyes, but now they've got lights

02:21:45   that don't look too dissimilar from my Golf.

02:21:48   I don't know. - They still do the four,

02:21:49   they still do the four lights.

02:21:50   Like that's still their signature is the four lights,

02:21:52   not the fact that they're circular.

02:21:53   I mean, just look at the i4.

02:21:54   Like when you see headlights in a BMW,

02:21:56   it's always each headlight has two major distinct things.

02:22:01   - Yeah, but to me it was so cool.

02:22:02   - I went through Casey, like I think they,

02:22:04   like here we are talking about they changed the logo,

02:22:08   and yet they kept this giant kidney grill

02:22:11   that is totally unnecessary on this car.

02:22:12   By the way, it has an air intake,

02:22:14   it's below the kidney grill.

02:22:16   That it's like, in that little slot,

02:22:18   like there is an air intake there,

02:22:20   but the grill isn't it.

02:22:22   Which is even more ridiculous

02:22:23   that they have this ridiculous styling element here.

02:22:26   I think if they're gonna change something

02:22:28   that's been this longstanding icon of their brand,

02:22:32   drop the kidney grill from electric cars that don't need it.

02:22:35   - You're both fired, they can't drop the kidney.

02:22:37   That's their defining styling element of the entire brand.

02:22:40   You cannot drop that.

02:22:42   You can make it, you can decide to minimize it

02:22:44   instead of maximizing it, instead of in every model

02:22:46   make it bigger instead of smaller.

02:22:48   That's what I was getting at before,

02:22:49   but I don't think you need to drop it.

02:22:50   Especially since at various times,

02:22:52   if you look at the 850,

02:22:54   you can make the kidneys really small.

02:22:56   Smaller than the openings that are smaller than the little T

02:22:58   in the Model S and the current Tesla even.

02:23:01   Like, it's not a problem for like,

02:23:03   you can't use the kidneys if you have an electric car.

02:23:05   All I'm saying is if you know

02:23:06   you're not gonna need the air intake,

02:23:07   don't keep making those kidneys bigger and bigger,

02:23:09   'cause that's dumb, and it doesn't look good.

02:23:11   That's the whole point, it doesn't look good.

02:23:12   It's perfectly fine to keep the kidneys just,

02:23:15   you know, find a way to make them look nice.

02:23:17   'Cause now that's all they have to do is look nice.

02:23:19   They have to look nice and not add too much drag.

02:23:22   I actually like the headlights on this i4 Concept.

02:23:26   You know, they're like angel under eye,

02:23:29   little fuse-shaped or whatever.

02:23:30   - Angel bags under their eyes.

02:23:32   - I think that's actually a fairly, you know,

02:23:36   again, I don't think that's gonna ship as is,

02:23:38   but it's a fairly nice, aggressive-looking headlight

02:23:41   that still looks like BMW to me.

02:23:43   If I could just blank out the giant schnoz

02:23:45   in the middle there, if I could blank out that kidney

02:23:47   or replace it with a smaller kidney,

02:23:49   I like the way the front of this car looks.

02:23:50   The back, much less so.

02:23:52   The grill is just so bad.

02:23:56   And we have a Concept car, you're gonna pick brown?

02:23:59   That's the color, I know they're gonna call it gold,

02:24:00   but this is not--

02:24:01   - They call it like champagne or something?

02:24:03   - It's not a looker.

02:24:04   - No.

02:24:05   [Door closes]

02:24:07   [ Silence ]