361: A Button in the Thumb Shelf


00:00:00   Were you bitten by a radioactive spider? Speaking of spiders? Because you could be gaining superhuman hearing abilities.

00:00:06   Can you like run much faster and leap higher than you could before as well? Can you see through walls?

00:00:11   Imagine what a curse it would be to get superhuman hearing but only for fan noise. I think I already have that.

00:00:18   I was gonna say that is John.

00:00:20   Superhuman vision but only for dead pixels.

00:00:26   I am having a slight problem with my iMac Pro. Of course you are, of course you are.

00:00:33   Coincidentally, I actually have had a slight problem with my iMac Pro which we'll talk about later.

00:00:39   But Marco, tell me what terrible tragedy is befalling your iMac Pro that's going to necessitate a replacement with a Mac Pro?

00:00:45   I wouldn't say necessitate, but it did kind of make me think, hmm.

00:00:51   Of course it did. Things that make you go, hmm.

00:00:55   Yeah, I've started hearing the fan a lot more often. It started to spin up a lot more to audible levels.

00:01:02   Like for the first, so I've had the computer for what about two years now? For the first like, you know,

00:01:07   23 months of ownership, I never heard the fan spin up. Not a single time.

00:01:12   Recently, every time I do like a big build in Xcode, it spins up very noticeably for a while.

00:01:20   Really?

00:01:20   So I'm assuming it's probably just full of dust and I don't really know how to clean it out.

00:01:26   I figure like, you know, obviously besides taking it to an Apple service provider, which I don't want to do,

00:01:30   is maybe if I like take it down from my desk and blow compressed air through its exhaust vent.

00:01:37   My theory is maybe if I blow canned air into the exhaust vent, it'll force all the dust and crap out the intake vents.

00:01:43   Hmm, maybe. You should look at that. You should take a look at the geometry of the inside of that thing before you...

00:01:49   Yeah, I should, yeah.

00:01:51   Ray Darsky in the chat says, "It's full of sand."

00:01:54   Or spiders. Well done.

00:01:58   Well done. Could be spiders. Yeah, so I'm hoping this is easily solved with dust,

00:02:02   but honestly if it's, if this is just how this computer is now,

00:02:05   I'm gonna be very upset because one of the things I love most about this computer is I never hear it.

00:02:10   And now I hear it frequently and that's, that's very, very annoying. But it's a very recent thing,

00:02:16   so I'm assuming it's something I can, I can hopefully fix.

00:02:18   Remember I told you that my Mac Pro is louder just at idle than an iMac at idle because the fans are not like

00:02:26   behind a solid thing, right?

00:02:29   So you wouldn't, and now the fact that that, that audio never changes,

00:02:33   as far as I could tell my fans have literally never spin any faster than idle ever,

00:02:38   doesn't change the fact that there is sort of a higher low level idle hum.

00:02:44   So I'm not sure if a Mac Pro solves this problem for you.

00:02:47   Yeah, I mean honestly like if they, if they had updated the iMac Pro,

00:02:50   I might have ordered it to fix this problem.

00:02:53   Unfortunately, they haven't. Because yeah, like if I was gonna, if I really, if for some reason this problem can't be fixed,

00:02:58   if my iMac Pro is just getting flaky because it's two years old, which it sure shouldn't, but you know,

00:03:03   it wouldn't be the first time that happened to an iMac,

00:03:05   then I would honestly, like if looking at the current lineup, I think I would still honestly just buy another iMac Pro.

00:03:12   I would just feel bad buying two of the same generation.

00:03:15   But yeah, I, this is probably something that's easily fixed, but I sure hope so.

00:03:20   The tough thing about it is, you're still on Mojave on that, right?

00:03:25   Whoop in the chat says, this is the computing equivalent to my ashtray is full, new car time.

00:03:31   I think it follows under the category of, oh compressed air, is there anything you can't fix?

00:03:38   Well, I hope, I mean we'll see.

00:03:40   It comes to Apple hardware, compressed air is the cure-all.

00:03:43   Follow it up next year. Do I have to hold my iMac Pro at a 75 degree angle?

00:03:47   That is a whole different tech note for what angle you have to hold the iMac Pro at.

00:03:52   Goodness, I don't even want to think about it. No, the funny thing about this is, for a fleeting moment

00:03:56   I thought, well could this be software, but you're still on Mojave, aren't you?

00:03:59   Yeah, I have not changed my software setup at all.

00:04:01   Well, you never know with Apple these days, which is really unfortunate. In fact,

00:04:05   somebody pointed out to me, or maybe I saw, I think it was a Insta story that MKBHD put up a day or two back,

00:04:12   where he was exhibiting the

00:04:14   janky and laggy mouse movement that I was seeing on my old iMac, and he was seeing this, if I recall correctly, on either the Mac Pro

00:04:21   or a

00:04:23   16-inch MacBook Pro.

00:04:25   That was a laptop.

00:04:25   Was it a laptop? John, defend your honor there. So anyways, I saw that and was like, oh, yeah

00:04:31   I really need to hold off on the Catalina upgrade.

00:04:33   Yeah, but it was in a Slack because when I saw that video

00:04:35   I was like, oh, I've never had this happen to me because I thought, you know

00:04:39   I have had like cursor jumping around like when I try to use the Bluetooth mouse with a

00:04:43   iMac, but it did not look like that. Like that was like very smooth motion

00:04:48   but delayed by like half a second from the input motion, and I have not experienced that. I've experienced it where you try to move it

00:04:55   and it jumps from one place on the screen to another instead of moving a smooth line, but that is very weird.

00:05:00   Yeah, and that is one of the things I saw when I also saw the machine gun trackpad. So

00:05:06   Very weird. Well, Marco, I'm sorry to hear that your iMac Pro needs to be replaced with a Mac Pro.

00:05:13   I'm glad that this difficult time where you didn't have a justification for it is now over.

00:05:18   Yeah, if there was either a new iMac Pro or an Apple 5k display

00:05:24   it would make this a lot more tempting.

00:05:27   Oh, I feel so bad for you in your time of woe.

00:05:30   Well, I had some interesting iMac problems, which we'll talk about later.

00:05:35   But we should start with some follow-up as per the rules. Marco, tell me about AirPods and in-flight entertainment systems, if you don't mind.

00:05:41   Yeah, so last episode

00:05:42   I basically said how much I love the AirPods Pro and how I really don't plan on bringing any other headphones on planes for

00:05:48   the foreseeable future because they're so good and

00:05:50   so much smaller than full-size noise cancelling headphones that the travel benefit of the small size and the performance of the noise cancelling is

00:05:58   fantastic, and I still stand by that. They're great, but a few people wrote in to say

00:06:02   what if you want to listen to the in-flight entertainment system that basically like one of the reasons why they still carry

00:06:10   headphones that can be wired is that they like to plug in and you know watch movies on the little screens that are in the

00:06:16   in-flight thing and

00:06:17   that's a perfectly valid

00:06:19   opposing idea. I just never thought about it because I never do that.

00:06:25   I always bring my own entertainment like I bring either an iPad or a laptop or both and I

00:06:31   will watch videos on that if I want to watch something. It's it just never really came up for me

00:06:35   but that is a totally valid thing. Now there are little Bluetooth

00:06:38   transmitting dongles that you can get for like 20 or 30 bucks

00:06:41   plug into the headphone jack of the airplane and they will broadcast a Bluetooth signal to a pair of Bluetooth headphones that you have.

00:06:49   I have never used one and I'm not sure

00:06:52   whether the AirPods could pair to it or not because I don't know how the pairing really works there.

00:06:57   So that might be a solution, but I can't really speak for it.

00:07:00   But certainly for non AirPods Bluetooth headphones those things are always fine.

00:07:04   But most of those headphones also can be wired optionally so it's you're better off to doing that.

00:07:09   If it were me

00:07:11   I think I would probably bring my AirPods or AirPods Pro and then bring one of my 84 old

00:07:18   ear pod

00:07:20   you know corded ear pods right my my first several iPhones like that's not the most

00:07:26   enjoyable way to watch anything on a plane, but if I am slumming it to the point that I'm watching the in-flight entertainment

00:07:32   then at that point all bets are off because I'm like you Marco not only do I likely have a computer

00:07:37   but I certainly have an iPad that has certainly used

00:07:40   Plex to sync a whole bunch of media that I thought I would enjoy on the flight.

00:07:43   So yeah, this is not a problem that I find myself having but it is an interesting point nonetheless.

00:07:48   Also, it's funny like we're at the point technologically where you know

00:07:51   not only does whatever you

00:07:53   whatever you want to bring with you on your laptop or iPad or whatever not only do you probably have

00:07:57   better stuff that you enjoy better and you probably have a bigger selection available if you've prepared at all, but also

00:08:02   the screen is likely to be not only

00:08:05   not only larger but also better quality like the screens and airplane seats are so bad there

00:08:12   they must be like TN panels like they have terrible viewing angles and terrible contrast and they just look terrible and they're so

00:08:20   responsive and yes, I know I'm supposed to listen to the in-flight announcements, but

00:08:25   rarely are those correctly volume leveled to the content that plays back on the in-flight entertainment system

00:08:32   so usually what happens is if you turn the volume up enough to hear speech in the movie you're watching

00:08:37   then if there's a pilot announcement it is it like blows your ears out. It's so loud

00:08:41   And so, you know, it's it's very hard to use that and have a good experience

00:08:48   So it's it's much better to bring your own stuff

00:08:51   As long as you prepared and you have any device any modern device that has a screen

00:08:57   I'd rather even watch a movie on my phone than watch on the in-flight entertainment system

00:09:01   Like that's how much the quality difference matters to me

00:09:03   I completely agree with you there

00:09:05   The only thing that the in-flight entertainment screens are for is in my opinion is either to be off if it's a dark flight or

00:09:11   If it's a light flight to show the map. Yep. Yep

00:09:15   You are you and I are of the same mind my friend completely agree

00:09:18   And by the way, I this is this is a small thing two little notes that I have

00:09:21   I'm my recent flight we flew on jet blue first time

00:09:24   I flown in jet blue in a while because they don't usually go where I want to go

00:09:27   Anyway, all of jet blue seems like a series of ads now

00:09:31   It's one it's one of those many I think American Airlines

00:09:35   That now during the flight the in-flight crew comes on and makes long announcements that our credit card offers. Oh, yeah

00:09:43   Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. This seems like it's crossing a line

00:09:46   You know, so not only are the are the people speaking credit card offers to you using the same

00:09:52   Announcement system that they speak important flight information and critical instructions, but then also then they walk down the aisle

00:09:58   Holding up this like brochure and offering it's like and you can tell the flight attendants don't want to do this

00:10:04   Like, you know, you can you can see it in their eyes like they're doing this because they have to they don't want to do

00:10:08   It that's not their job. It shouldn't be their job, but their job is making them do it, right?

00:10:12   And so that's that's ads and then on the in-flight screen

00:10:17   I just want to watch the map screen if it's gonna be on just show me the map screen

00:10:20   But nope, it cycles through it's showing the map screen maybe

00:10:24   10 seconds at every minute and the rest of the time it's cycling through like billboard ads

00:10:29   No wonder we bring our own screens now like the in-flight screens have gotten so bad

00:10:36   Well the screens to your point a few minutes ago. The screen quality was never good even when they were brand new

00:10:41   Yeah, but yeah, the content is also terrible these days

00:10:44   Friend of the show jelly just sent me, you know, it's basically in-flight push notifications

00:10:49   So well done remember when I think it was Virgin America that they actually had

00:10:56   Like seat to seat messaging and yes, the little keyboard on the back

00:11:02   And yeah, like this because this was like right before

00:11:04   everybody had their own smartphones and everything in their pockets anyway all the time and and right before everybody had Wi-Fi everywhere and everything and

00:11:10   it was just like

00:11:11   It was like the coolest thing in the world for like a year

00:11:13   when Virgin America first came out and you could message someone else in like, you know

00:11:19   Like if you were sitting separately from some other member of your family or party you could like message

00:11:23   Oh send this message to sex this, you know seat 16 C

00:11:26   Weirdest idea it was a weird idea, but it was very interesting, you know, I have to point out

00:11:32   I don't remember what airline it was and honestly doesn't matter but on a couple of the flights I've flown in the last year

00:11:37   There's been some deal I think via t-mobile, but it doesn't really matter some way somehow

00:11:43   You could send iMessages

00:11:46   For free even if you didn't play for it pay for in-flight Wi-Fi, which I thought was extremely cool

00:11:52   That was very very nice and it just reminded me again that half well like Erin's entire side of the family is on

00:11:58   Android which kind of stinks but

00:12:00   But for those of us who are on iMessage that was really really convenient and really nice

00:12:05   And I thought that that was a very nice middle of the road between screw you give us 15 to 25 to 35 dollars for

00:12:11   In-flight Wi-Fi and you know, oh, yeah, everything's free. We you know, I thought it was a very good middle of the road

00:12:17   Also to complete travel tips corner here. This is one thing that like as as

00:12:21   SSL has been has become more and more universal on websites

00:12:25   It has it has actually become somewhat harder to find a site that is never

00:12:31   SSL so that if you're in a captive portal Wi-Fi thing like on many planes I had to actually do this because like

00:12:36   Normally the Apple Wi-Fi thing should detect when you're in a captive portal and it should put a little slide up thing up

00:12:42   They'll let you log in or click the accept button or whatever you have to do

00:12:44   Sometimes that just doesn't work for whatever reason whatever like Apple's test page

00:12:48   It doesn't detect that it's a captive portal or whatever

00:12:50   And so you have to you know, go type in like, you know, google.com or whatever and then you know

00:12:54   It'll it'll capture that and redirect you to their login page. You can log into the Wi-Fi

00:12:58   well, you can't do that anymore with SSL everywhere and most browsers won't even attempt to go to like google.com because it'll use

00:13:05   HSTS or something and so like there's actually a site never SSL comm that is never served over SSL

00:13:13   So if you're on a captive portal and you need a site that will that you know

00:13:18   Will redirect you to the login page go to never SSL calm

00:13:22   Isn't that cool? That's very good or you can go to always

00:13:26   HTTP calm if you prefer prefer the reverse logic. Yeah glass half full half empty. Yeah, that's very good

00:13:32   Alright, Henrik home ers had a very good point

00:13:35   This was with regard to our conversation last episode about how Marco and I don't really feel like there's any point to our big cameras

00:13:41   Anymore, that's a summary you get the idea. Oh god, please don't email us based on that summary. Yeah, please don't email

00:13:46   Very simplified summary

00:13:50   But anyway, the point being Henrik pointed out in in in they're spot-on

00:13:55   The ergonomics of the iPhone as a camera is very poor

00:13:58   I would argue the iPhone is worse ergonomics than any physical camera currently for sale

00:14:03   I don't know if I want to take that bet or not

00:14:05   but certainly the point the broad point is absolutely true that the ergonomics of trying to

00:14:10   Physically operate the iPhone as a camera is not great, but I stand by what Marco and I were saying that for

00:14:17   80 to 95 percent of my use cases. Anyway, it's the best camera I have these days

00:14:23   Because an area for possible improvement, I mean we know that the battery case has the camera activation button to launch the camera app

00:14:29   Which is a step in the right direction because when you need to quickly take out your phone and use it as a camera

00:14:35   It's a it's a tricky skills tricky thing to become good at it's a small object

00:14:41   That's usually that's pretty uniform and smooth around all the edges

00:14:45   you may have to

00:14:47   Tap something on the screen if you don't want to use like the volume button shutter or whatever

00:14:52   But depending on how you have it oriented you might not know where all that stuff is gonna be

00:14:56   By adding affordances for

00:15:00   quickly being able to

00:15:03   Launch the camera app and use it to take a photo that makes the phone a more valuable more useful camera

00:15:10   And I think you can do some of that without making like the phone making it phone the phone camera shaped

00:15:16   Like the if you just I mean we've talked about a dedicated camera button for years

00:15:21   But you know not just the one that launches the thing but a dedicated shutter button other than using volume and maybe multiple buttons

00:15:28   I don't know. I'm just trying to think of a

00:15:30   Newly shaped phone or a newly shaped phone case maybe

00:15:35   That reflects the reality of our phones, but it's kind of like a you know Mike

00:15:39   Perley and many other people in their pop sockets like

00:15:42   The reason that's so popular is it's better ergonomics for using the phone in a particular way not for pictures in that case

00:15:49   But just you know for very large phones being held in one hand safely and securely right

00:15:54   It's not something you couldn't do before, but people are willing to

00:15:56   buy basically a little outfit their phone and

00:16:00   Dress it up for its new role as you know hey iPhone Pro Max

00:16:05   You were giant, but I can hold you with one hand now because I've got a pop socket

00:16:09   I

00:16:11   can imagine

00:16:12   like

00:16:14   Something like a smart connector or other kind of sort of smooth contacts on the naked robotic core that is the iPhone

00:16:19   That allow you to put on basically a camera case

00:16:21   that has

00:16:24   More grips and shutter buttons in various places so that you could

00:16:28   Take out your phone blindfolded pointed in the direction and take a photo

00:16:33   It's you can do that today, but it takes a little bit more fumbling

00:16:37   I feel like I could take out my big camera and point it in a direction take a photo

00:16:41   Easier with blindfolded than I could with a phone and certainly more securely like in if I was timed and said get it out quick

00:16:48   And point in the right direction and do it all blindfolded my camera is camera shaped

00:16:52   It's very easy to see where all the buttons are I don't need to look at them

00:16:55   It is not symmetrical in any way

00:16:57   It's very clear where the gigantic lens is pointed and where the shutter button is and whether it's on or off and all that other

00:17:02   Stuff not true at all the phone

00:17:04   You'd have to take it out and feel around with it to find where it find where the camera is make sure it's facing the

00:17:08   Right direction make sure you know is the camera in the upper left upper right lower left or lower right corner because sometimes that matters

00:17:14   When you're taking a picture, so I look forward to I haven't been keeping track of the rumors

00:17:19   But I look forward to a future iPhone. Maybe not this new redesign, but maybe the one after that

00:17:23   Has the ability to be more camera shaped?

00:17:27   one can dream

00:17:29   Alright, let's talk about Scott Simpson and jumpy mice John. Can you tell me about this?

00:17:35   Yeah, we're gonna talk more about mice later, but remember when I first got my Mac Pro was saying how I'd hooked up the little

00:17:43   Logitech dongle

00:17:45   RF receiver thingy and when I

00:17:48   Put it in the back of my computer. It was getting terrible signal my cursor was jumping all over so I used instead

00:17:54   I used that little

00:17:55   Apple USB C to USB a adapter, which is like three or four inches long and

00:18:00   Put the little RF dongle in that and it worked and I was doing it

00:18:05   I was putting it on the top ports like instead of being around the back

00:18:08   I was putting it on the top in retrospect. I should have realized that like

00:18:11   The one and a half foot distance between the back of the computer and top of the computer surely is not accounting

00:18:16   You know that doesn't explain the incredible difference in signal quality that I was getting so here's the actual explanation. I find this

00:18:24   depressing and somewhat infuriating

00:18:27   Intel paper Intel the company largely responsible for USB

00:18:33   It's on their website enough that people did it anyway

00:18:37   It's a study showing that the noise generated by USB 3.0 data

00:18:42   Can have an impact on radio receivers whose antennas are placed close to a USB 3.0 device and or USB 3.0 connector

00:18:49   We will put the link in the show. It's it's a PDF. We apologize for the PDF

00:18:52   but it is

00:18:55   Straightforward like to do a bunch of tests to say here if you put something near a USB 3 port that has data going through it

00:19:03   The act of the data going through that port will cause interference with things on a similar spectrum so

00:19:08   That explains why my little logitech turd thingy

00:19:11   wasn't working on the back of my computer because guess what is right next to a USB 3 port that was connected to like my

00:19:18   external SSD you know and

00:19:20   Similarly I have other USB 3 devices and an external hub or whatever

00:19:24   That's bad like if you're coming up with a standard make sure that

00:19:31   That it doesn't cause radio interference for the things that it's not just the devices the ports the ports themselves if they're not well shielded or

00:19:38   Not ridiculously well she did even the devices they experiment where they were like wrapping the external SSD and tin foil

00:19:45   Or some kind of foil to try to keep the noise the USB 3.0 generated noise from coming out of that

00:19:50   This is I feel like this is the type of thing you should figure out before you release the standard to the world

00:19:55   If you have and it's 3.0. Only it's not apparently not 2.0 so

00:20:00   Hurry, I'm with a bunch of USB 3.0 devices coming out of the back of my computer

00:20:04   And that's that's why it was different when it was on the top because the signal the interference

00:20:09   Decreases rapidly as you move away from the the port or the device so being on top of the computer

00:20:15   It wasn't like it was closer to the mouse. It was farther from the USB 3.0 point that had a lot of data going through it

00:20:21   so

00:20:23   If you're wondering why you get bad signal for your little RF receiver for your logitech mouse or you're getting other weird

00:20:30   Behavior and you have a bunch of USB 3.0 peripherals and or cables read this paper and see if any of the solutions they recommend

00:20:37   Help you. I just like knowing what's going on, but boy. This is I hope USB 4 doesn't have similar problems

00:20:44   I'm sure it'll have even better and newer problems for us to contend a lot of problems without a space USB 4 no space

00:20:52   All right, let's talk about photo sharing a little bit more follow-up there a Mario Panagetti says you can send iCloud photo links to people

00:21:00   With non Apple devices instead of adding the photos to the library

00:21:03   They'll just get a zip download of all the photos and my testing Android phones don't always know what to do with this surprise surprise

00:21:07   Andrew Elliott writes also it creates a public web page viewable viewable by any browser which expires within 30 days and finally Jared counts writes

00:21:16   I recently sent some photos to my wife via iCloud slash iMessage if she opened the link on her phone

00:21:21   She could import directly into photos

00:21:22   But opening the link on her Mac showed a page with a download button for a zip file as Mario had mentioned

00:21:27   So all a little bit more feedback on photo sharing which was an ask ATP a couple of weeks ago

00:21:31   John this is something about destiny don't care. Let's talk about rack mount Mac pros. It's not about destiny

00:21:38   It's about the ps4 controller still don't care you do care someday

00:21:43   Why I care someday one of your children is gonna complain that they want to use their ps4 controller to play Minecraft on one of your max

00:21:49   You'd be like

00:21:51   You'd be glad you heard about this

00:21:53   Saying that like I had my

00:21:57   ps4 controller which was working fine in Windows 10

00:22:00   With steam and everything it was paired it was working it could navigate the interface

00:22:05   But as soon as I launched the game the game couldn't see it because the game itself had its own notions about

00:22:10   Connecting to the ps4 controller and I had to plug it in well apparently there is a wireless adapter that very kind of like the

00:22:18   RF adapter for a lot of tech mice that

00:22:21   Makes your computer think that it has a wired ps4 controller plugged into it and really it's got a little

00:22:28   Transmitter or receiver pair that make that happen and apparently if you buy the one from Japan it's cheaper

00:22:34   So we'll put a link in the show notes if you'd like to use your ps4 controller wirelessly

00:22:38   With your quote-unquote PC or Mac and boot camp

00:22:41   In a game that insists that it must be

00:22:44   Wired connection this will fake it out. You know I will say as much as I'm giving you junk about this I

00:22:51   Was trying to use I don't remember the name of the emulator, but I was trying to use a Mac based emulator to

00:22:57   emulate

00:22:58   software that I had acquired a

00:23:01   while ago and that strongly resembled software I used and played as a kid and

00:23:07   Anyways, I tried to hook up my Nintendo switch controller via Bluetooth to my old

00:23:12   I Mac was the last time I tried this and it was a pain in the hindquarters trying to get that to work and

00:23:18   Even when it did like it was still a little bit wonky so I

00:23:22   Thought about buying like one of the the blessed controllers that Apple supports

00:23:29   I think there's at least a couple, but maybe this would be another solution to my problem a

00:23:32   Ps4 controllers will just pair directly to your Mac. I think with no anything like I know you're talking about like the

00:23:39   Made for iPhone rather that whatever they are the ones that work with iOS devices right but for the Mac

00:23:46   I think both ps4 and Xbox controls will just pair just you go and you put them into pairing mode go into Bluetooth you connect

00:23:51   And that's it. I think you're right

00:23:53   I think the problem was I was doing with the switch pro controller, and that's where I fell in my face

00:23:55   That's not one of I think that's not one of the ones that's on the list of things that just get supported out of the box

00:24:00   on Macs

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00:25:42   [Music]

00:25:44   Tell me about Rackmount Mac pros if you don't mind

00:25:47   They're available the slow roll out of the Mac Pro continues not it's not complete

00:25:53   But this is the next step the rackmount Mac Pro that has been on the on the page for a long time

00:25:58   But you could never actually click the configure button now you can click configure and

00:26:02   Really the options look basically the same except that it starts at $6,500 and start instead of starting at

00:26:10   $6,000 you can look at a gallery which has a grand total of three pictures

00:26:14   It shows the front which is a bunch of holes and two smaller handles for pulling out the rack

00:26:18   It shows the side which looks to me

00:26:20   Or you know the cutaway which looks like it's the basically the same motherboard with the same components in the same places

00:26:24   With a couple of extra things thrown on the front. I'm not quite sure what they are

00:26:29   I hope I fix it gets one of these and tears it down, but I can't maybe it's just dead space in front of it

00:26:33   I don't know and then finally it shows the back which is a little bit weird

00:26:37   I mean first you can see how much wider it is than the regular one, but second

00:26:41   the back does not have the

00:26:44   Same scalloped cheese grater hole pattern instead it just looks like it has a much more sort of

00:26:50   you know

00:26:53   Previous generation cheese grater pattern is just a flat piece of metal with a bunch of holes punched in it a bunch of very tiny

00:26:59   Holes punched in it so if you want to pay $500 for a bigger Mac Pro that can fit in a rack now you finally can

00:27:07   I have a very important question

00:27:09   Does this count as the 2020 Mac Pro?

00:27:12   Yeah, I mean maybe I wonder I guess if you buy it it probably does they probably do consider it the 2019 Mac Pro

00:27:20   Right like what is the name of this product even let me see what it says on the page

00:27:23   It just says Mac Pro like surely there is some

00:27:27   Way to differentiate it in Apple's official literature is able kind of Mac

00:27:32   Do you have you don't just say you have a Mac Pro because if you come with this thing?

00:27:35   And it's probably just like it like you know they don't give the wheel

00:27:38   Configuration its own product name like this. It's probably considered still the Mac Pro. Just it happens to be in a radically different case

00:27:46   Tell me about Pro display XDR true tone if you don't mind one thing

00:27:50   I forgot to talk about when talking about my products by XDR is that it comes with true tone

00:27:54   I'm so out of the loop on other options does the iMac Pro or any of the iMacs have a true tone option

00:28:00   No, I have night shift that doesn't count yeah

00:28:03   So I think for true tone what you obviously you need the sensors yeah, and maybe there's just those don't exist

00:28:08   I mean, I guess you could use the camera. I don't even know anyway

00:28:11   The XDR has true tone and so playing with the monitor when I first got it is one of the things I considered

00:28:17   And you know what's what's your both of your positions on true tone on all your devices that supported mostly iOS devices

00:28:24   I use it. I use it wherever it's supported

00:28:28   I find it quite subtle, and it's not I've never really noticed it. I used to use

00:28:35   The other one night shift. I used to use night shift a little bit more

00:28:38   I think it's now disabled on my stuff, but yeah night shift used to be a much bigger effect

00:28:44   But yeah true tone. I don't really notice it so I just leave it on

00:28:48   Yeah, so I on my iOS devices. I use true tone all the time

00:28:55   It's kind of one of those things like when it first came out. I was like do I really want something trying to mess with

00:29:00   The colors based on what it thinks about the environmental colors. It's not gonna look weird sometimes

00:29:04   Would I rather just have the screen just do accurate colors all the time regardless of my ambient light, but I?

00:29:12   Don't know. I just I guess I just went with it figuring that if I don't if I enable it

00:29:17   And I don't notice any difference that that means that like the light hitting my eyes in contrast to the surrounding light

00:29:24   You know should I'm not optimizing for the accuracy of what is emitted. I'm optimizing for the accuracy of

00:29:31   What gets to my eyeballs which includes some reflected light, and I don't know so anyway

00:29:36   I leave it on and I'm fine with it, but on this thing

00:29:38   I'm like well

00:29:39   I'm gonna be editing photos on here do I want this thing messing with the photos, so I've tried it on and off

00:29:44   And it's the type of thing where if you turn it on you very quickly stop and noticing that it's on

00:29:52   But as soon as you turn it off you're like wow that's a big color difference and usually it's usually shifting it more

00:29:58   Blue right so you turn it off, and it looks bluer than normal

00:30:01   No like a I think I'm gonna end up leaving it on

00:30:06   But it's definitely like a different vibe like if I

00:30:10   Thing is it has a nice fade effect - it doesn't just switch immediately like I just turned it off and I was like

00:30:17   Everything is blue. Yeah

00:30:21   And when I turn it on

00:30:23   Like for a second things start to look a little yellow, but then everything acclimates, and I don't know it's it's

00:30:30   It's a little bit of a conflict in my life here

00:30:33   I think I'm probably just gonna leave it on edit all my photos with on I

00:30:36   Think if like I'm a sunny day with all the windows open or the blinds open that it'll basically be the same

00:30:42   But at night with this weird artificial lighting on the second thing is is there's two different presets that come with this

00:30:47   Like in the color profiles below

00:30:50   one says Pro display XDR and then in parentheses p3 -

00:30:54   1600 nits and the second one says Apple display p3 500 nits

00:31:00   Hmm, and I've tried each one of those things and other than I assume the top preset

00:31:06   Being able to go to the maximum 1600 nits when you play the HDR content on the bottom one not I can't tell

00:31:13   What the heck they're doing so I'm just leaving it on the default it came out of the box set to p3

00:31:20   1600 nits and I'm just leaving on that I

00:31:23   Have no thoughts about this whatsoever

00:31:25   This is the thing about HDR. I mean I haven't this is my first HDR experience

00:31:30   I know technically like the iPhones have HDR yada yada, but like

00:31:33   This is my first display that has HDR that you can really notice especially in Windows which handles this terribly

00:31:40   when I try to play destiny in HDR and then like

00:31:43   Get the game to switch back to the quote-unquote desktop in Windows

00:31:49   When it goes into HDR mode like the entire like a non HDR content like just your icons and windows or whatever

00:31:55   Looks like washed out and gross like it changes the colors of that to support HDR

00:32:00   And so you can sort of catch a glimpse of what the rest of the world would look like in HDR mode

00:32:05   but when you leave the game it switches out of HDR mode in Windows and goes back to like regular display so that

00:32:11   You know white stuff looks white again instead of everything looking I had a gray haze over it

00:32:15   The Mac handles it much more gracefully so when I play HDR video

00:32:19   I can tell that the brightest whites in that HDR video are so much brighter than any other white that's been on the screen

00:32:25   before that

00:32:28   You can narrow the gap by cranking the brightness up to max, but you do not want to do that

00:32:32   I mean, I think we all know on these modern displays

00:32:34   Do not on modern desktop displays putting the brightness at max will burn your eyeballs out. Don't do that, right? Yeah

00:32:42   But the HDR like I don't think there's a way to get it to display like an all-white text edit window at

00:32:49   1600 nits unless you put that in a movie

00:32:51   Right because I think the display will never

00:32:54   That you know

00:32:56   It's not high down the Mac desktop experience is not high dynamic range as far as I'm able to tell only

00:33:01   Video is that and that means only video is going to reach those peaks of 1600 hits these that's my understanding of somebody

00:33:08   who actually knows stuff about

00:33:10   Reference monitors and HDR displays and and Mac OS specifically has any guidance or something

00:33:17   I can read or answers, please write into the show and let us know

00:33:20   All right, so things seem to be mostly good with your new Mac Pro

00:33:27   But I see the following in the show notes

00:33:30   Quote Mac Pro Ethernet wonkiness quote and coincidentally

00:33:35   I have iMac Pro Ethernet wonkiness that I'd like to discuss after you're done

00:33:39   But tell me is there trouble in paradise John? It's my Ethernet wonkiness is it's a quick one

00:33:44   But it's a thing that people the other five people assume this show who have Mac pros

00:33:49   May run across

00:33:52   So my Mac Pro like most of my desktop Macs. I just turn off Wi-Fi because I want wired connections for everything

00:33:58   I don't want them bothering sending their signal transmit and receive signal out into the air just get off Wi-Fi

00:34:04   Don't need it don't want it. You don't use airdrop then or Apple watch unlock? No

00:34:10   You know, I'm not using Apple watch unlock. I don't wear a watch right and airdrop. No, no, no use airdrop

00:34:15   I don't hand off. I don't want the little icon sliding up next to my doc. I don't want any of that

00:34:19   I'm assuming that your previous Mac Pro was not airdrop compatible. My previous Mac Pro did not have Wi-Fi, right? I

00:34:25   Would suggest turning it on for airdrop because if you if you do the little network

00:34:31   Preferences priority list and just put the Ethernet first all your networking stuff will still go over Ethernet

00:34:38   But leave the Wi-Fi on for airdrop. Yep. What do you think? I'm airdropping anything photos anything? Yeah, like something like yeah

00:34:46   Sometimes I'll send a photo from my phone to my Mac if I want it like

00:34:48   Immediately there like without any waiting for sync sometimes TIF or I will airdrop things to each other's computers

00:34:54   You know it occasionally like, you know

00:34:57   If the network isn't working right or if we if it's just faster if it's from iOS to the computer

00:35:01   Yeah, there's lots of times where I use it

00:35:03   No, I don't think I have occasion to transfer anything from iOS devices to my Mac that's not like already there through some sync process

00:35:11   But I'll keep it in mind if ever comes up. I certainly have the capability now unlike my previous computer

00:35:15   But anyway, I connect the Ethernet the Mac Pro has two 10 gigabit Ethernet ports. I

00:35:22   Personally in my house have an 8 port switch. That's the same 8 port switch that I've been using with my 2008 Mac Pro

00:35:29   It's not as old as my 2008 Mac Pro because I think it replaced at some point in its lifetime

00:35:33   But it's not a new switch

00:35:35   It's old enough that I can't get a replacement that looks like it because I needed a bunch of switches

00:35:40   I think when I got the Synology that wasn't that long ago, right but wasn't that long ago. That was almost seven years. Well my

00:35:47   My Mac Pro was three years old then when I got that I said, oh I want to get some switches

00:35:54   I'll probably I'll get the same one that I have that I've been using with my Mac here and I couldn't find it because they

00:35:58   Changed the models around or whatever. So anyway, it's a pretty old switch is what I'm getting it

00:36:02   You know, but it's a gigabit Ethernet switch and like how you know, it's a dumb switch

00:36:07   It's what what could have changed since then. Well something about

00:36:12   This switch and the existence of 10 gig Ethernet do not get along with each other

00:36:17   I mean it makes sense because when I bought the switch 10 gig Ethernet did not exist as a standard over

00:36:23   Copper as far as I'm aware, so it kind of makes sense that this which wouldn't expect that anyway

00:36:30   When I connected everything up on my Mac and I one of the things I did was a speed test to make sure that I had

00:36:35   Everything working the way I wanted in my internet speeds were terrible

00:36:38   At you know

00:36:40   so incredibly slow and so incredibly close to a hundred megabits that it immediately became clear to me that

00:36:45   My interface was probably set to 100 megabits and sure enough

00:36:49   I went into the Ethernet hardware settings and it was like hardware speed and it had selected 100 megabits

00:36:54   Which is the wrong choice?

00:36:56   And so basically what it comes down to is in the negotiation between my

00:37:01   Ethernet switch and my Mac they could not see eye to eye and I think my Ethernet switch said fine

00:37:08   I'm just defaulting to my slow speed. So I went to 100 megabits

00:37:11   So I just manually set it to gigabit and problem solved

00:37:14   but if you also have a semi old Ethernet switch connected to your 10 gig Ethernet be aware that they may not be

00:37:21   Friendly with each other and you may have to do what I did which is just manually set it to gigabit and then lo and behold

00:37:26   hundreds of megabits a second up and down to the internet problem solved

00:37:30   So let me tell you my tale of woe because I've had a stressful 24 hours and let me

00:37:36   Let me give you the extremely short version that Marco can drop in if he ends up cutting all this

00:37:42   I thought I thought that my iMac pros Ethernet port was broken

00:37:47   Then I thought the Eero was broken and it turns out that possibly seemingly because of my mocha bridge

00:37:54   Everything was falling down on its face

00:37:57   But as soon as I disconnected the multi the mocha bridge from my switch everything came back up and everything was fine

00:38:04   So the longer version of the story and this is where

00:38:07   Marco will do the fast forward sound effect, but the longer version of the story is that I noticed that my

00:38:15   iMac Pro wasn't connected via Ethernet and I thought that was very odd and

00:38:18   I

00:38:20   Started trying to troubleshoot and I thought that okay

00:38:23   This is weird because the iMac just is refusing to pull an IP

00:38:26   It's seeing that thing that everything is connected physically

00:38:29   But it won't pull an IP and I restart my Eero I restart the switch which like you John is a gigabit switch

00:38:35   I've had for probably five years or something like that

00:38:37   Nothing seems to be making a difference

00:38:41   Well, then I eventually think all right. Well screw it. Thankfully my Eero base station that the parent if you will

00:38:47   Eero base station is right there. And so I plug my iMac directly into the Eero and

00:38:53   That works no problem. It immediately pulls an IP address. Everybody's happy

00:38:58   So I decide that the switch is broken. So because it's old, you know, even though there's no real intelligence there

00:39:04   You never know

00:39:05   So I decide to Amazon Prime now myself a new switch

00:39:09   Which by the way the fact that you can do that and within a couple hours it shows up still blows my mind even though

00:39:14   This is like a five-year-old thing, but be that as it may

00:39:16   So I eventually get this new switch in I plug everything up and I'm ready to go I'm excited that must have been the oh

00:39:24   No, it's not the problem. Oh

00:39:26   Okay, and I don't recall the exact timeline at some point in this struggle I decide to do a

00:39:33   Diagnostics on the iMac and the iMac says no no, no, everything's great

00:39:36   But I don't really trust that because my last iMac said no no, no, everything's great when it wasn't

00:39:40   so I'm starting to get really upset at this point and then I

00:39:45   Guess it was around now that I realized

00:39:48   Okay

00:39:48   The switch is can't be the problem because it's brand new and that's when I plugged into the Eero and I feel like okay

00:39:54   It's something about the combination of the switch and the Eero

00:39:59   So I start blowing up your own support via email saying without actually saying I would like a new one yesterday

00:40:04   please because obviously this thing is jacked up and

00:40:07   They didn't put me through the entirety. I don't think of their desert

00:40:12   You know, is it turned on kind of tech support rigmarole?

00:40:16   But what they eventually said was which I didn't think of myself and I'm a little disappointed that I didn't think of it

00:40:21   but they eventually said

00:40:24   Unplug everything from the switch except your iMac and try that and sure enough

00:40:30   That's when everything worked and if this by some miracle actually makes it in the show

00:40:34   I would love to know from someone who knows more about this than me

00:40:37   Why would the mocha bridge cause everything to fall down?

00:40:41   So if you're not familiar with what that is, there's it's an acronym something over coaxial

00:40:45   I think media over coaxial or something like that. I don't know. But anyways, I

00:40:49   Still have TV service through Verizon files and the way that our set-top box

00:40:55   Gets the TV guide for whatever you want to call it is

00:41:00   Through the internet, but the only way the set-top box is connected to the internet is via coax the same

00:41:06   you know cable that the video comes through and

00:41:08   in the past this was fine because my

00:41:11   Verizon issued router also got its internet via coax or in once I got gigabit it had a coax port on it

00:41:19   So even though the internet was coming in via Ethernet in the newer router

00:41:22   It still would connect to coax so it could give the set-top box or boxes

00:41:28   Access to the internet. Well, what I did was in because I didn't want to use the files router anymore

00:41:33   I really like hero which is a past sponsor and probably future sponsor, but I really like them. I

00:41:38   Decided I want to use my hero

00:41:40   And so I got this thing called a mocha bridge which is basically you plug coax into it you plug Ethernet into it and it

00:41:44   Guess what bridges the two networks and I don't know

00:41:48   What it is about this mocha bridge that caused everything to fall into space, but since I have unplugged it

00:41:54   Everything's been working great except of course set-top box

00:41:57   But if you know more about this stuff than I do

00:42:01   I would love to know how that could be a thing other than maybe the bridge just needed to be like

00:42:05   Restarted or something, but I don't understand how that mocha bridge could have taken down my whole darn network

00:42:11   So I if you know and if this actually made it in the show, I would love to know so please do let me know

00:42:17   I've never trusted those mocha bridge things. I don't like the idea of

00:42:20   Ethernet over coax along with the video signal just always seem janky

00:42:25   That's why I've always wanted just like a box that's on the wall of my house

00:42:28   Then what should come out of is an Ethernet cable and nothing else soon

00:42:32   Yeah, which is what I have now and I do wait when everything works. I actually do like the mocha bridge

00:42:37   I have a fairly old one and I don't recall what generation it is

00:42:41   but my understanding having briefly looked into it is that you can actually get a gigabit or

00:42:46   near gigabit speeds over more modern mocha bridges and that's really important for someone like me who is too lazy to run cat6 throughout the

00:42:54   House but really would like to have an Ethernet drop across the house now in my actual circumstance

00:43:00   I haven't I only use the mocha bridge for the purpose of the set-top box

00:43:03   but if I wanted to go like my office is in the the upper right corner of the house if you will and

00:43:12   the family room is like below it and in halfway back and

00:43:17   The all the kitchen is below it on the opposite side of the house

00:43:20   So if I wanted for some reason an Ethernet drop and say the kitchen I could use mocha bridges to get that Ethernet drop

00:43:26   I would I already have one that usually is plugged in up here in the office and I can put a second one down in

00:43:31   The kitchen and then I have an Ethernet drop right there

00:43:33   and so in that sense, it's super convenient because I'm just ride on the stuff that's already in the walls, but

00:43:38   But yeah, something has gone very very wrong with this and I don't understand what and it's kind of driving me crazy. I

00:43:44   Don't know. So thank you for indulging me and we'll see if this actually makes it in the show

00:43:50   John tell me about your sleep-wake battles. If you don't mind, please

00:43:53   Another thing about I don't know all new computers most new computers in my life. That's one thing

00:43:58   I appreciated about my 2008 Mac Pro and the thing I think that I hate about most laptops

00:44:04   sleeping and waking my Mac Pro my previous Mac Pro

00:44:09   You know have energy saver settings where you could say do you want to wake for network access and you do scheduled wakes and sleeps?

00:44:17   I think those were basically the only options and you could also say when the screen goes to sleep and how long

00:44:22   At idle before the computer goes to sleep

00:44:24   And all those settings worked all the time

00:44:28   I know that doesn't sound like much but anyone has a laptop or

00:44:31   Another Mac that they have these issues with those that's not you know

00:44:34   you don't take that for granted like the the settings I had on my old Mac Pro were

00:44:38   Never sleep by yourself except during the schedule. The schedule was wake up at like 3 a.m

00:44:46   And then I had back play scheduled to run then and then go to sleep like an hour and a half or two hours later

00:44:52   Right. So if you just left my Mac awake all the time, it would eventually cross 3 a.m

00:44:58   And do its thing and then it would hit its scheduled sleep and it would go to sleep, right?

00:45:02   But otherwise it would never automatically go to sleep

00:45:04   So that's so I could have like a long running downloads or other sorts of things and in theory all those sort of long-running

00:45:09   Operations should already keep the computer awake, but sometimes they didn't especially in the old days

00:45:14   So it was just nice to be able to have a computer that I knew

00:45:16   Would act in a predictable way and when I put it to sleep, which I did, you know frequently

00:45:23   I never shut it down

00:45:23   But I would I wouldn't just leave it running all day because it's a big thing that uses a lot of power

00:45:27   I'd put it to sleep when I'm not using it

00:45:29   and it would just immediately go to sleep and

00:45:32   It wouldn't wake up until you that 3 a.m. Wake up time came or until I came back and woke it up

00:45:37   Again, not necessarily true of laptops. So this new computer has more settings than the old one did it has

00:45:45   All sorts of other things that will wake it up. Some of them are sort of

00:45:49   Revealed in the in the UI like it's got power nap

00:45:53   Which I think my other thing didn't have that lets it like

00:45:55   Wake up silently and check for email and do time machine backups or whatever. I don't know how silently it does those wake ups

00:46:01   And you know, it's got startup after power failure

00:46:05   I think my old one had that and then it's got wake for network access and

00:46:08   You know the hard disk sleep option and all that other all the good stuff

00:46:13   But with this computer I was having a bunch of issues

00:46:16   Where I'd put the computer to sleep

00:46:19   when I walked away from it just you know, my old habits for my old Mac and I'd come back in the room a little bit

00:46:25   later and I'd

00:46:27   Eventually realize that the computer is awake. The screen is still black, but the computer is awake and

00:46:33   This this led me to a couple realizations one

00:46:36   Despite what I said before about the fan noise

00:46:40   Every time I would come in here, I'd be like it's my computer awake. I put it sleep

00:46:44   Is it awake and I I couldn't tell

00:46:47   Unless I walked up to it and put my ear like right in front of the grading on the front of the computer

00:46:53   It's like somebody who sleeps at their eyes open like are they asleep?

00:46:57   Yeah, like are they alive they breathing put your finger under their nose to see if they're breathing

00:47:01   Yeah, and this is like what I was saying before

00:47:03   It's like well when the computer's on at a title and I'm sitting in the chair here, you know

00:47:07   Three feet away from it like I can still hear it. But when I'm doing the sleep/wake testing

00:47:12   Sometimes I'd be sitting in the chair

00:47:13   Like I'd be on like my work laptop in the same exact chair, but I'd put the big, you know

00:47:16   The Mac Pro to sleep, but did I just be on a laptop and I'd like did the Mac Pro just wake up

00:47:22   And I I wouldn't be able to tell for sure

00:47:25   Unless I got up out of my chair

00:47:28   Went over to the computer and put my ear to it the same chair that I'm sitting in right now

00:47:33   So despite me saying that at idle you can hear the fans

00:47:37   Apparently you can't hear them well enough for me to determine with certainty

00:47:42   Whether the thing just woke up or not, right?

00:47:44   So they're really quiet now like I think if you if you made me bet like alright

00:47:49   I'm not letting you get up from the chair place your bed. Do you think it's awake or asleep?

00:47:52   I think I could mostly tell I think I'd have maybe 90% success rate, but it's borderline

00:47:57   So that's one point. The second point is why the hell's my computer working out, right?

00:48:01   Anyone who has dealt with this before with a laptop or otherwise?

00:48:05   Hopefully knows all the many things that can wake your computer up

00:48:08   I'll link to a good article by Howard Oakley in the eclectic light company, which is a great website for Mac nerdery

00:48:16   but this is one of those topics where if you google for

00:48:20   Why is my Mac waking up and especially if you know something about how to debug it and you start googling for the words that?

00:48:26   Involve debugging it you will find so many results across like decades, right? This is a common problem

00:48:33   The solutions vary the tools for looking into the solutions vary a little bit a little bit more lately

00:48:39   The PM set command-line tool is your friend. I think you know PM set minus G log

00:48:47   Giving you a log of the sleeping and waking and PM set minus G assertions to see

00:48:52   You know if you if your problem is that your Mac won't go to sleep

00:48:56   Even though you tell it to go to sleep after five minutes of an activity

00:48:58   You can see who's keeping it awake

00:48:59   And why every time you can feel wakes up those logs will say a wake reason

00:49:04   Why did I wake up and the wake reasons would will say very obscure text that you will then type into Google and find a million

00:49:09   People whose computer are waking up with the exact same thing if you have a more recent Mac or more recent OS

00:49:14   You'll see that the wake reasons have information redacted for privacy reasons

00:49:19   Which is a new innovation to try to keep like private information out of the logs

00:49:23   But it is not particularly helpful when you're trying to figure out why your computer is waking up

00:49:27   Why might your computer be waking up well there's wake on network access, but you can just uncheck that checkbox

00:49:32   You've got that solved and by the way

00:49:34   I never had that check just because

00:49:36   If you have any especially for any computer that there is any route

00:49:40   To that computer from the internet like say you're running like a Plex server on something and you

00:49:44   Want it to be accessible from the internet there is a way

00:49:47   From the internet to get to that computer if that is the case

00:49:51   And you have wake on network access

00:49:54   Available you put it asleep it'll wake from network access in three seconds because things are port scanning the internet like 24/7 right

00:50:00   It is a hostile environment if you wake on network access

00:50:03   somehow some way that wake up packet will go flying through and I don't understand how it can do that because I used to I wrote

00:50:08   a little program to

00:50:10   Send the wake-up packet, and I think it has to be sort of like handcrafted

00:50:14   And I didn't think you could get to it from the internet

00:50:16   But anyway my maybe it's my hostile environment in my house my experience has shown if you do wake for network access

00:50:22   You will never your computer will never sleep for long. It'll be like a parent of a baby, right?

00:50:26   Infant like you'll put it to sleep, and it will be woken up so I

00:50:30   Suggest if you want your computer to stay asleep not enabling that

00:50:34   Bluetooth devices Bluetooth devices love to wake up a computer. Why beats the hell out of me

00:50:40   That's one of the reasons I have Bluetooth turned off on my computer most of the time

00:50:43   Bluetooth like are they just

00:50:47   Lonely there are they glitching are they did someone nudge a mouse is there some kind of vibration?

00:50:53   But you know if you're trying to debug this this thing of like is a Bluetooth device waking up my computer turn off Bluetooth

00:50:59   Then at least you eliminate that problem hopefully by turning off Bluetooth

00:51:03   USB devices of all kinds love to wake up your computer again. Why why are they waking up your computer?

00:51:10   I don't know static electricity

00:51:13   Get somebody nudges them solar flares. Yeah, but bugs in the firmware like

00:51:19   External hard drives that USB hard drives that the thing tries to spin down when they're idle

00:51:25   But then like wake themselves back up like if you know and you'll see like wake reason HID

00:51:30   USB blah blah blah like what does that mean what what is waking up my computer?

00:51:35   Why won't you stay asleep again much like infants? Why won't you sleep? No?

00:51:38   Could you sleep for more than 30 minutes? You're killing me

00:51:42   So anyway, I went through that procedure with this computer over the course of the first week

00:51:47   I had it it did eventually get to the point where I am now where when I put it to sleep it stays asleep

00:51:51   until the scheduled wake up time, but it did take

00:51:55   Going through all this stuff for moving. I had a USB hard drive that was always connected

00:52:00   And I said you're not gonna be always connect

00:52:01   I'm only gonna connect you when I need to boot from boot camp and otherwise you're gonna sit on a shelf

00:52:05   Turned off Bluetooth disabled wake for network access

00:52:11   Found a bunch of other

00:52:12   Programs that were putting in assertions that were keeping it from idle sleeping and so I think I'm mostly okay

00:52:18   There's this other thing by the way called dark wake which is where I think it's where it wakes up

00:52:22   It doesn't turn the screen on I think that's this

00:52:24   Affiliated with power nap sometimes you'll see a dark wake anyway pm set minus G log will show you the sleep wakes

00:52:31   And I was graphing them

00:52:33   There is another stuff like the real-time clock and was it

00:52:37   Mdns resolver or whatever that thing is the thing that was discovery D. We got changed back

00:52:41   That wakes your computer every two hours to do some real-time clock maintenance something yada yada like

00:52:48   but anyway since you have a lot of these events you can graph them and see when is my computer waking up and when is

00:52:54   it going to sleep and

00:52:55   It has been improving to the point where I feel like it's an understandable predictable cadence

00:53:01   It will sort of wake up without turning the screen on and do some kind of maintenance

00:53:05   Thing that I'm pretty sure I can't stop it from doing I don't understand what real-time clock maintenance means other than perhaps I

00:53:11   Don't know synchronizing the real-time clock with an NTP sir

00:53:15   I don't know what the hell it's doing

00:53:16   But occasionally it wakes itself up every two hours briefly and does a thing and goes back to sleep

00:53:20   But as long as it mostly stays asleep

00:53:22   I'm I'm happy with it, so I

00:53:25   Don't know what if this is gonna help anybody except to let you know that if you are having problems with your computer

00:53:32   Waking up when you don't want it or problems with it

00:53:35   Going to sleep when you command it to or letting it go to sleep from idle

00:53:40   There's a world of pain out there

00:53:42   But it is possible to defeat it with a little bit of effort and process of elimination kind of like Casey with

00:53:47   Unplugging everything and turning everything off with this various routers and that story that may you may or may not have just heard in this podcast

00:53:53   Yeah, and this is one of the things about desktop computers that I feel like sleep wake battles can be won

00:54:02   Because the environment that they exist in is controlled in some way

00:54:05   It's not constantly on the go connecting to weird networks and having all sorts of weird peripherals and docking things

00:54:10   It's sitting in one place with one set of stuff connected to it

00:54:13   It is a winnable war

00:54:15   But the variety of things that think they need to wake or half wake up your Mac

00:54:21   Has grown over time and now I feel like it's just barely manageable

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00:56:30   Tell me about your finder toolbar battles

00:56:36   That's a toolbar they kept popping up and in the finder that I would dismiss and it would reveal itself again as I look at

00:56:42   The finder windows in the background now both of them have the toolbar visible despite me hiding a toolbar on both of those windows at

00:56:47   Least five times today. They're back

00:56:49   The theory on this and this was my theory as well

00:56:52   But I didn't know how to test it and didn't know how to fix it was that

00:56:55   Various third-party apps that can add toolbar buttons to the finder toolbar

00:57:00   Could be causing this to happen one of those apps is Dropbox

00:57:05   Which I believe let me go to customize toolbar and see if I can see it here

00:57:08   Yeah, there's a Dropbox item in customized toolbar

00:57:13   I don't have that item in my actual toolbar

00:57:16   But it's in the customized sheet

00:57:18   and I think something about the interaction between like whatever that plug-in is lurking inside Dropbox and the finder is

00:57:24   causing

00:57:26   Dropbox to do something that triggers the finder to show the toolbar and all the open windows. I

00:57:31   Can't really uninstall Dropbox because I want to use Dropbox. Oh you can I've done it

00:57:37   I'm Dropbox free and it's in terms of client app. Anyway, yeah, I think I use the web interface

00:57:42   What do you yeah?

00:57:43   What are you using like transmitter the web interface?

00:57:45   Web interface and the only time I ever really use it is to send you or mic files

00:57:49   Yeah, you've got that thing going on your Synology, but I'm not I'm not ready to do that

00:57:53   I use Dropbox not just for podcast up for personal stuff as well. That's what the Synology thing is for

00:57:58   Not attractive but I would like to

00:58:03   Find a way to disable the finder integration that used to be an option and many versions of Dropbox ago

00:58:10   There was a checkbox that says do you want finder integration?

00:58:13   I think that also applied to the little badges, but now there's an official Apple supported API for the badging

00:58:17   So there's no more checkbox because just you know, it's it's not a hack anymore. I

00:58:20   Think the the toolbar thing is also not a hack. It's also an official API. So this may be some kind of Catalina bug

00:58:27   but anyway, once again asking for help if anybody knows a

00:58:31   If it actually is Dropbox, I suppose I could uninstall it and find out so I should just do the experiment myself

00:58:36   but if it is Dropbox causing my toolbox to appear and be how I can stop Dropbox from

00:58:42   Insisting on putting that toolbar button there that I'm never going to put on my toolbars because I don't like toolbars Oh

00:58:48   John all right Marco you had an interesting post just a couple days ago about

00:58:54   Pro mode and low power mode. Would you care to talk to us about that?

00:58:58   I love that John and I now both blog so infrequently in Casey. I think you're you're getting there

00:59:04   We blog so infrequently that every time we post a blog post is worth discussion on this

00:59:11   show

00:59:13   This this topic was in the notes before you blogged about it because I thought it was hilarious

00:59:17   That there was a rumor that the thing that you've always wanted low power mode that the rumor was that Apple was doing the opposite. Oh

00:59:23   You want low power mode. How about high power mode? What do you think of that? Yeah, exactly

00:59:28   Yeah, so so there's this rumor from 9 to 5 a few days ago about

00:59:33   that in in a Catalina beta there were some string references found that suggests that Apple is working on a

00:59:40   Something called possibly Pro mode which would be a way to temporarily enable higher performance

00:59:46   and

00:59:47   They would kind of suggested that me it may be it might have to do with like raising the fan speeds to basically increase

00:59:53   the thermal output and so presumably like you know because modern laptops and computers like modern processors are

00:59:59   Limited with a certain thermal limit and if you apply more cooling to them they can usually get

01:00:07   More performance or at least longer sustained peak performance before having to throttle the the speeds

01:00:13   closer down to the base clock speed like modern modern Intel turbo boost basically lets the

01:00:18   CPUs burst way above the the advertised clock speed much of the time that they're in use and in fact

01:00:25   The average clock speed like on a normal operation that all that is is the minimum that they're guaranteed to be able to sustain under

01:00:32   Indefinite load but a lot of times even under a constant load

01:00:37   modern processors can sustain

01:00:40   way above their base clock

01:00:42   But they can sustain way way above it for a really short time

01:00:47   And so if you apply more cooling then they can sustain higher performance levels for longer times during busy workloads

01:00:55   And so that's what I assume Pro mode would be doing and that's a frequent demand especially from the

01:01:03   Video editing crowd for MacBook Pros

01:01:05   That's a very very common request of like

01:01:07   Youtubers or other video producers who were using MacBook Pros out in the field they want to render stuff as quickly as possible

01:01:12   And there are times when they don't care about fan noise. They just need something to be done quickly

01:01:16   And so you know that would ideally benefit that crowd

01:01:20   but what I want is indeed the opposite I

01:01:24   Want what I've been running on my laptop for a while now. I want a first-party solution on my laptop

01:01:30   I've been running turbo boost switch or pro for I don't know like four years now. It's been a while

01:01:35   I've been running this and

01:01:37   What I love about it is that it lets you disable turbo boost completely and you can also automatically disable it based on

01:01:44   Whether you're on battery or not

01:01:46   So you could like automatically disable it when you're running on battery and then when you're plugged in it automatically gets enabled

01:01:51   I've actually usually just kept it disabled all the time and

01:01:55   Then if I really need high performance I go to the menu bar and toggle it and then toggle it back when I'm done

01:02:00   But that's becoming less and less common that I actually need that higher performance and the rest of the time

01:02:06   It may seem weird that I am buying a processor that's capable of significantly higher performance that then what I ended up limiting it to

01:02:14   but

01:02:16   It's actually really really nice

01:02:18   When performance is not your highest priority

01:02:22   To have a laptop that is much more pleasant to use in other ways

01:02:26   So when you disable turbo boost you lose a lot of your single thread performance

01:02:32   It could be up to half of your single thread performance

01:02:34   Multi-core performance gets reduced a lot less because when you're using all the cores turbo boost can't boost as high anyway

01:02:41   so using all the cores with

01:02:43   Turbo's disabled you're looking at maybe losing about a third of your performance of it depending on the processor you have and how many cores

01:02:49   Etc. But anyway, multi-core is not effective as much as single core, but what's great about this is

01:02:55   That the laptop when not using turbo boost

01:02:58   runs

01:03:00   Significantly cooler because the maximum wattage is significantly capped way lower

01:03:05   You can look at my blog post for all the actual numbers here, but it runs way cooler and

01:03:10   That also means that the fans almost never spin up

01:03:14   It's almost impossible to have the fans spin up when it's in when turbo boost is disabled

01:03:19   In fact, I heard from a lot of people who like playing games this way because it keeps the fans from just going crazy when they're gaming

01:03:26   Windows has a control that I think does this there is like a slider and windows that it's like performance or battery life and

01:03:34   And I I don't know

01:03:36   I don't know what that's adjusting but people pointed out as a thing in response to this. But anyway, so

01:03:42   When you run disabled, so it runs way cooler it runs way quieter and you get way more battery life

01:03:49   So you are giving up a good amount of performance

01:03:52   But a lot of times that's not noticeable like most of the time I run my laptop this way and it's fine

01:03:57   you know most of the work I'm doing on a laptop is

01:04:00   casual work like

01:04:02   You know email web social stuff with occasional bursts of Xcode productivity and when I'm doing that

01:04:07   like I can get through a whole cross-country flight using Xcode and

01:04:12   Not worry about the battery because it actually will last the entire flight

01:04:16   Pushing it with Xcode without a problem when this when turbo boost is disabled

01:04:20   So it's a wonderful way to have a laptop and the reason I asked for it now

01:04:25   Is you know, not only is there a chance that Apple's listening and therefore?

01:04:29   You know, like I figure like hey while you're in there while you're making an option for pro mode

01:04:34   This would be a perfect like other end of that slider

01:04:38   Give us low power mode

01:04:40   iOS has low power mode people use it all the time. It's a great idea because you know the point

01:04:46   I'm in making the post is like

01:04:48   All these trade-offs of like power and heat versus performance and battery life

01:04:53   Apple chooses one

01:04:56   balance of those trade-offs for each product generally and it's fixed in stone forever and

01:05:01   Sometimes I want peak performance

01:05:05   Sometimes I don't care about battery life, but sometimes I want the laptop to run cool and not burn my legs and not make my

01:05:12   hands sweaty

01:05:13   and I don't want to hear the fan spinning up constantly and I already need the battery to last for a whole cross-country flight because the

01:05:17   power outlet in my seat is broken like there are times when I want a different balance and

01:05:22   Normally Apple does not let us control that balance of performance versus everything else

01:05:28   iOS is low power mode is one of the only times they've ever given us a control over that

01:05:34   That we can say on iOS, you know what right now I care more about longest battery life possible than

01:05:41   Everything being exactly fast exactly, you know up to date with you know background updates and stuff like that

01:05:46   Like they give us that control and there's lots of software stuff

01:05:49   You can do as well in which they do in iOS low power mode, you know stuff like on the Mac

01:05:52   I you know, you can disable photos indexing you can disable spotlight

01:05:55   You know

01:05:56   You can disable software updates iTunes downloads like a whole bunch of stuff that Macs do automatically in the background

01:06:01   even when they're on battery you can

01:06:03   If a proper low power mode could actually turn all those things off

01:06:06   in addition to modifying turbo booster or CPU thermal limits

01:06:11   anyway

01:06:12   So on iOS we have this one switch that we have low power mode and that's great. We need that sometimes

01:06:20   People seem to like it. It seems to be a great success and I think there's no real major downside to it there

01:06:27   that obviously

01:06:30   One fixed balance of performance versus other factors doesn't fit everybody all the time

01:06:37   So it's nice to have a control

01:06:39   So on the Mac if they're gonna add a control in the other direction like making it, you know pro mode

01:06:45   This is the perfect time to also add this one add low power mode

01:06:49   it seems like they were making it work in a similar way where like

01:06:52   You can't really leave it that way all the time easily

01:06:55   You'd have to like turn it on and then automatically turns itself off tomorrow or something like that. Like that's fine

01:07:01   I could deal with that. And the reason that I'm caring about this now is

01:07:05   because

01:07:07   turbo boost switcher pro is

01:07:09   Probably going to stop working later this year with whatever the next version of Mac OS is

01:07:14   because it shows this warning on Catalina of like

01:07:17   This developer needs to update this because it won't work with a future version of this of Mac OS which of course means

01:07:23   Probably next year's verb this year's version. So I'm I'm concerned that

01:07:27   This utility that I've been using to approximate low power mode that I like the effect a lot

01:07:33   It's probably gonna stop working in about a year

01:07:36   That's why I'm hoping Apple will add this because a proper low power mode on Mac OS

01:07:42   Has all the same benefits that it does on the iPhone

01:07:46   Also, apparently I haven't verified this but people people have told me that it's not even on the iPad yet

01:07:52   and that I think also would be a good addition like

01:07:55   We have batteries and all these devices pretty much everything that does not plug into the wall should probably have a low power mode

01:08:01   I have

01:08:03   Nothing to add other than to say I completely agree with you and you know, I think this is

01:08:08   This is needed. I think low power mode is needed and I also think you know the low data mode

01:08:13   Which is also available in iOS, you know something that you can approximate with trip mode

01:08:17   I think both of those are long overdue and I really wish both of them existed and I'm sad that neither of them do

01:08:24   Yeah, oh and and by the way, there are other options if you're willing to disable system integrity protection

01:08:30   I'm not that's I think not really an option. So

01:08:34   So rule those right out

01:08:36   We had all those stories where in the mac Pro came out where everyone was trying to configure the most expensive mac Pro

01:08:41   If this pro mode feature ever does actually ship I can't wait to see people seeing how fast they can burn the battery down from

01:08:49   Full charge by enabling promote and doing some sort of CPU intensive thing

01:08:53   Giving it more thermal headroom to run sustained at higher frequencies for longer

01:08:59   Yeah, it's kind of weird that I mean, I understand, you know the you know, whatever the pro apps team

01:09:05   What's the name of that team? There's the pro workflow group. There you go

01:09:08   I mean, I'm sure they're saying exactly like you're saying like sometimes, you know

01:09:12   I'm in a situation where even if I'm on battery, I want maximum power right now to get something done ASAP

01:09:18   I don't care if my battery is deleted by depleted by the end of it

01:09:21   so be great if I had a mode that would remove the limits on the fans because

01:09:25   historically even on their laptops Apple has

01:09:28   Favored

01:09:31   throttling down

01:09:34   The the CPU and everything rather than running the fans at screaming

01:09:39   speed all the time and a lot of times if people do temperature sensing and say like it'd be great if Apple ran their fans a

01:09:45   Little bit faster and sped them up a little bit sooner because it seems like stuff's getting pretty toasty in there

01:09:50   And maybe it's like too toasty but Apple's sort of in balancing that equation thinking

01:09:55   Well, let's balance a little bit more in favor of noise

01:09:59   So I see how the pro workflow group would say that balance is not really the right balance for us

01:10:04   So can you give us a mode where we crank it up?

01:10:06   But it is really amazing that you know if this again that this rumor is true

01:10:10   to even think that they would do this and not do low power mode because like is there the

01:10:17   non pro workflow group saying

01:10:19   Everybody wants more battery life on their laptops. Like everybody wants that it's why it's on phones

01:10:25   Like it is not an uncommon desire to say boy. I wish this laptop had more battery life

01:10:30   Maybe the optimistic take is like well

01:10:33   Don't you worry about that because when the arm laptops come you're gonna have more battery life than you know what to do with but

01:10:38   It doesn't really make much sense because the phones are arm and they have low power mode. So I

01:10:42   Really? I really really hope low power mode

01:10:45   Comes out is a higher priority than this the opposite of low power mode

01:10:51   Like it's it seems like the priority should be low power mode first and then kind of like the Mac Pro

01:10:57   For those weird Pro people. Yeah, okay the

01:11:00   You know, I love it. They call it Pro mode and the strings by the way, like they can't call like

01:11:04   battery sucking mode or

01:11:07   Drain your battery mode, but by the way to like like there's also a problem of like

01:11:12   All the modern high-end like large laptops like the 15 inch and the 16 inch when you run them at full blast

01:11:19   They actually draw more power than their wall adapters can supply and so they actually will slowly deplete their own batteries

01:11:26   Even when plugged in so I'm not sure you would want a pro mode that would make that even faster

01:11:33   like because all that would do would be suck more power and

01:11:38   Again, I wouldn't be able to keep up from it from its own wall wart. And so you would have the situation where

01:11:43   You would be draining your internal battery

01:11:46   faster faster

01:11:49   maybe again

01:11:50   like maybe you want that but I think my my concern with this as you were just kind of alluding to is it has seemed on

01:11:56   a number of occasions recently that

01:11:59   The pro workflow group that Apple seems to be designing their pro products for these days

01:12:05   Might not be as diverse as it needs to be

01:12:08   we talked about this a few weeks ago that like it certainly seems like Apple is

01:12:13   Basically designing computers for video editors and that's great. There are a lot of video editors out there

01:12:20   but that's not their only customer segment and

01:12:25   video editors have very different needs than almost anybody else and

01:12:30   so I hope that

01:12:33   Their product direction reflects the needs of lots of types of customers and that they aren't

01:12:39   only

01:12:41   Prioritizing basically what youtubers want like that? That would be unfortunate

01:12:45   And I I don't think they are that you know narrow-sided and but certainly sometimes it seems that way and you know

01:12:54   Some of the direction some of the products do seem that way

01:12:56   But this would be an area where like I hope that John's right

01:13:01   I hope they have heard not just from video editors who say please let me crank this laptop even faster

01:13:08   Sometimes and burn my battery even faster

01:13:10   but also from

01:13:12   Literally everybody else who would be like hey, you know what most the time I would like more battery life

01:13:15   Please and maybe not have it be so hot and loud

01:13:17   Yeah, I feel like this constituency of pro users

01:13:21   It was neglected for so long that they did the right thing and made this pro workflow team to

01:13:27   Get get their own sort of in-house

01:13:30   You know microcosm of that constituency to find out how they can make things better for them

01:13:35   And I don't think it's just video editors like you just look at the Mac Pro thing

01:13:38   They had audio editors with a big soundtrack and I have photographers and they have 3d artists, right?

01:13:43   But it's it's basically all all of the types of applications that really can use all the power available if you just give them more

01:13:50   of it

01:13:51   Despite that, you know as we've quoted many times and they say in their keynotes that the developers are number one pro customer

01:13:57   But developers are not represented. Well if at all by the pro workflow team it seems

01:14:01   But the other side of that is like yeah, so I want I think of the pro work for team is like lobbyists

01:14:07   I want them lobbying for the wild stuff that they need right but

01:14:12   there needs to be like

01:14:15   The reason you needed to make that is because that's a constituency that you weren't paying attention to so form this group

01:14:20   Presumably you were paying attention to everybody else before that but now it seems like you have this

01:14:27   vocal

01:14:29   powerful group within the company lobbying for exactly what they're supposed to be lobbying for their needs and

01:14:34   Whatever everybody else's needs are either

01:14:38   Like maybe the company thinks oh, we don't need any sort of

01:14:42   In-house constituency for that because that's just everybody else and that's just us. That's just our product managers

01:14:47   We know what we needed to but it seems like

01:14:49   You know the voice of the voice of the customer like the non pro customer

01:14:55   Isn't there's a disconnect between I think what sort of the mainstream non pro Mac customer in particular

01:15:03   Wants out of Apple's products and what they're providing from everything from low power mode to number of ports and convenience to

01:15:09   Battery life and you know all that stuff price. Yeah price another good one

01:15:13   Whereas on the phone, I think the non pro constituency is very well represented

01:15:19   They made the phones bigger and thicker and have more battery life and actually made them cheaper

01:15:23   Like if you look at the recent trend in iPhones

01:15:25   It's so clear that the sort of non pro regular person constituency has been getting things that they like

01:15:32   And the things that you know, we wanted many years ago and they're delivering on now

01:15:36   So I don't think that's a problem in the phones when it comes to the Mac

01:15:40   You know

01:15:41   I'm happy that they're catering to the pro things and making this crazy computer that I'm sitting in front of but it's clear that

01:15:46   The rest of the Mac line could use a little bit more like I don't think you need to make a non pro workflow team

01:15:52   I think that should be just a function of the whole rest of the product org, but I think there's still a disconnect there

01:15:57   I think they they need to have a meeting of the minds with

01:16:01   the the mass of their regular non pro customers to get on the same page about what they want like

01:16:07   Considering looking at the 16-inch but really that's that's a pro product as well

01:16:13   And yes, it does have a bigger battery but mostly for the needs of pros and speaking of that

01:16:17   Draining the battery even went on power. Did they does the 16-inch come with higher wattage power brick than the

01:16:23   15-inch yes, well it went from 87 to

01:16:27   95 I believe 96 and can it still outrun that you're saying that if you take the 16-inch and you crank it without any special

01:16:34   Tweaks you can outrun the that power adapter. I haven't heard specifically on the 16-inch whether it still does that

01:16:39   I know that I know the 15 inches before it all the recent ones could do that indeed

01:16:44   You have to I believe stress the CPU and the GPU

01:16:47   Which is pretty easy to do if you're doing something like a video in code. Yeah, so anyway, I think

01:16:51   We still need

01:16:54   We don't need a roundtable and we don't need a non pro workflow group, but I think we do need

01:17:00   Some closer connection between the desires of the mass of non pro customers and what Apple's non pro

01:17:08   Mac groups are putting out

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01:19:01   John you've been taking a tour of mice and keyboards and things and

01:19:10   you have put four different mice mouses in the show notes and

01:19:14   I'm

01:19:17   I'm having a problem and if you wouldn't mind, can you explain to me?

01:19:22   How it is you can steadfastly and adamantly and petulantly

01:19:26   Refuse to have an LG monitor with a little LG logo on it

01:19:30   But you can have these four f***ing abominations on your desk and be okay with that

01:19:35   Apple doesn't make a mouse that I like Apple makes one mouse

01:19:40   I mean in different colors, right, but that that's the only mouse they make is the little sushi thing

01:19:44   It's really low and I don't like a low mouse. Yes. I understand that but these are hideous

01:19:51   How can you be so upset about the LG display and look at these and be like, yeah, okay, that's fine

01:19:56   In all fairness you aren't supposed to look at your input peripherals as you're using them. Whereas you are looking at your monitor

01:20:03   Yeah, but still I mean Marco if you haven't yet you need to look at these links in the show notes because oh

01:20:09   Boy, the Microsoft one isn't bad

01:20:12   but as a Windows logo on it and every other one is pretty bad if we're saying that the

01:20:19   Bar for bad is the LG logo on the front of the display then these are all hideous

01:20:24   No, I the LG logo is the least of the ultra fines problems

01:20:28   I don't like so what we're looking at here is three Logitech's and a Microsoft mouse and these aren't even like the super like

01:20:35   You know lit up RGB LED kind of like super gaming mice like those I think are a little bit tacky by design

01:20:41   And that's what that market wants. And so that's fine. I but like these are

01:20:46   fairly pedestrian looking mice like, you know, it would be the MX master is the like

01:20:52   bulkiest, you know most complicated looking one and even it has a

01:20:56   Fairly tame like design aesthetic compared to its market of mostly like gamers

01:21:03   I'm easy enthusiasts like it is actually a pretty tame looking option

01:21:06   But I don't I don't think this is that bad. I I've seen way worse mice

01:21:11   In fact TIFF owns a way worse mouse that we bought to match for a ridiculous gaming PC that has like, you know

01:21:16   RGB lights and everything, of course

01:21:18   No, the Microsoft mouse actually think is pretty decent looking but it has a Windows logo on it, which I thought would just

01:21:23   Absolutely infuriate the John Syracuse of 20 years ago or whatever, you know, actually you could sand that off. I bet

01:21:30   like a lot of times like I did that I

01:21:33   My car has little USB ports in the in the center console that you can plug in for either music or actually you can record

01:21:40   The footage from the cameras as dash cam footage onto USB and I got one of those little tiny

01:21:46   almost like flush USB drives for it like a little Sam and and it was a Samsung one and it had

01:21:52   Samsung written across it and it's and it was such a small thing

01:21:56   I was like this I don't want my car to be screaming Samsung out of this little USB thing

01:22:00   And so when it came I got some sandpaper out of my garage and just gently sand it off the logo and it was fine

01:22:06   And so I have a now I have a blank USB stick in my car and it's wonderful

01:22:10   And this is like we never think of that as an option like you can just slightly modify some hardware that you don't maybe like

01:22:18   or you know something about it like you can you can just

01:22:20   Grind that thing off or sand that thing off and usually it's fairly unintrusive and it's everything's fine

01:22:26   So yeah, so I feel like John could theoretically just sand off this Windows logo of this mouse and it would probably be fine

01:22:34   Alright with all that said John tell me about all of these mice and what what you do and do not like from them

01:22:40   Well, so here's where I'm coming from

01:22:41   I'm coming off of you know

01:22:43   I was using a 10 year old computer and I think the mouse I was using was even older than that

01:22:47   Maybe maybe not it was it was an MX

01:22:49   Not even an MX 300 I was using originally Logitech wheel mouse. It didn't have a product name. There was no nice anything like that

01:22:57   And I think it was replaced with an M

01:23:01   300 model that was basically the same size and shape that I got off of like eBay or whatever

01:23:05   I did I wore out some part of it and eventually had to buy another placement

01:23:10   but

01:23:11   The shape of the mouse was what I wanted. It was it had straight sides

01:23:15   and it was

01:23:18   Somewhere it was higher than the Apple Mouse

01:23:20   But lower than some of the really big sort of palm filling

01:23:24   giant snail mice, right

01:23:27   And two buttons and how to scroll wheel and when I was looking for a replacement I was like well

01:23:34   All right, this mouse is kind of old new computer

01:23:37   Reconsider everything. Let me look at some new mice. I

01:23:40   Was mostly shopping based on shape, but when I started shopping around for mice modern mice that are not like 10 years old

01:23:48   You know, I use the Apple one right and I didn't like it and when I was shopping for new ones I

01:23:54   Very quickly came to the conclusion that if you're shopping in sort of the high end of consumer mice not getting into gaming mice quite

01:24:02   Yet, but just the high end of consumer mice

01:24:04   They are all better than Apple's mouse like full stop now

01:24:09   I know you don't like the logos and I know you think they look weird

01:24:11   But here's the thing stuff that goes in your hand very often looks weird. Look at the TiVo remote. Look at most OXO

01:24:18   Things that you can buy and like I weird cheese grater. Look at hand tools. It's not a beauty contest

01:24:24   SimiFruity doesn't win you anything

01:24:26   It's got to fit in your hand

01:24:28   Which is not symmetrical and as lumpy and weird and has five appendages and ones coming out the side

01:24:33   it's

01:24:35   It's not

01:24:36   You know, you're not gonna make a perfect, you know conical section or this beautiful solid. It's not going to be ergonomically good

01:24:43   So that's one thing so yeah, they look weird and they are weird shapes

01:24:47   But they are shaped to fit your hand better than apples is shaped to fit your hand

01:24:51   If you don't use it in exactly the way Apple wants you to use it as sort of like a thing

01:24:55   That is barely there beneath your hand, which is not how I use a mouse

01:24:58   I kind of grip it from the side with my thumb on one side and my pinky and ring finger on the other side

01:25:04   And the two things on the top, right?

01:25:06   second thing is

01:25:08   That the the controls themselves like there's lots more physical controls on

01:25:13   These non Apple mice obviously Apple is the elegant solution of just the entire continuous surface and it clicks down and it's really nice

01:25:20   And it's a touch service. It's beautiful elephant elegant Apple solution, but it has limits as discussed last time

01:25:24   You can't hold down the right mouse button and click the left mouse button because it's one big mouse button surprise

01:25:29   That's limiting in games and in weird complicated apps. It doesn't have a scroll wheel

01:25:34   It has a scroll gesture and I don't like that as I described it the same way with the Apple TV remote

01:25:39   Where when I go to grow to grab the mouse?

01:25:41   I don't want any accidental scrolling happening because my fingers brush the touch sensitive surface

01:25:45   I don't like thinking that it's a alive beast that if I pet the wrong way something's gonna happen on my screen

01:25:50   I like physical buttons and

01:25:53   That's what you'll get on most of these third-party mice

01:25:55   And in particular the physical controls on the expensive third-party mice are nice

01:26:01   We talked about this in cars or on toasters knob feel button feel

01:26:06   How do the controls feel they feel cheap or expensive?

01:26:09   Did they make lots of noise you both remember my scroll wheel on my old mouse so you could hear it in lots of recordings

01:26:14   You know, I don't have it in front of me, so I can't spin it for you

01:26:17   But it was very noisy and didn't feel good and was kind of gross. We've come a long way there

01:26:22   So that's what I was shopping based on and my thought process was

01:26:26   Try to find something more or less same size and shape as my other one

01:26:29   But that has a much nicer scroll wheel and some good buttons and I was open to the idea of Bluetooth and a lot of them

01:26:35   Are offered in Bluetooth, but I wasn't you know wedded to it

01:26:37   I did I did want like the idea of not having a cord because my previous mouse was corded only and it's

01:26:42   kind of hard snaking that cord onto my

01:26:44   Keyboard train was like you know what you just get rid of that cord and I have to worry about it

01:26:48   It'll be nice if I could be wireless, but it wasn't a deal breaker

01:26:52   So I got the Microsoft. What is it called Microsoft precision mouse? It's also called the surface precision mouse, which is Microsoft's fancy mouse. I

01:26:59   Tried it in the Microsoft store talked about that before I got it in black. Of course with the pro thing

01:27:05   I got the Logitech marathon mouse m705

01:27:09   Which was a sort of middle-of-the-road not super high-end

01:27:13   Logitech mouse

01:27:16   And so that was my other and I also had tried that and like I think I tried it in like a staples or something

01:27:21   I was buying school supplies for the kids and I remembered the model so, you know again

01:27:24   I highly recommend going to a store and trying these things before you you know buy based on a picture or whatever. I

01:27:31   Did look at the gaming mice and I see a couple of contenders there in particular Logitech g305 light speed

01:27:38   looks like a

01:27:40   mostly RGB less or RGB light

01:27:43   mouse that I'm looking at because it

01:27:47   It seems like it's about the right size and shape but I'm not gonna buy it until I've gone to a store to hold it

01:27:54   I think Best Buy might have it but I haven't had a chance to go to the store

01:27:57   So I don't have that mouse. So we'll put the link in the show. It's anyways, you can look at it, but

01:28:00   in particular the gaming mice concentrate on

01:28:03   the sensitivity of the sensor and all sorts of stuff having to do with the DPI and for gaming or whatever and they you know

01:28:09   Working on lots of surfaces and not having lag and those are all good things too

01:28:13   Like I even though I'm not buying I'm not buying it for gaming

01:28:16   I like the idea of that and I can tell it with it sort of like my old janky mouse as an example

01:28:21   Good sensors good optical sensors versus bad ones

01:28:24   You can tell the difference when you're using them like in terms of what kind of resolution does it have and what kind of services?

01:28:30   Does it work on or whatever?

01:28:31   and then finally

01:28:33   somebody from Logitech apparently listens to this program because a package came in the mail today that had a little handwritten note that said I

01:28:39   Don't have it in front of you. It was like

01:28:42   Hello greetings from Logitech. We we like the show enjoy. So someone from logic sent me a bunch of logic peripherals for free and

01:28:49   That's why I also have a Logitech MX master 3 sitting right here. They also sent

01:28:56   bonus item

01:28:58   The magnetic camera thing that attaches to the top of your protos play XDR and I'll talk about that a little bit later

01:29:04   No, that's cool. And they also sent a Logitech keyboard

01:29:08   But mice first the thing I didn't think about when I bought these mice

01:29:13   It didn't occur to me until I got them all my house and started using them

01:29:16   But I had telling people listening now so they think about it as well

01:29:20   Obviously, maybe no one cares

01:29:22   the underside of the mice

01:29:24   Who whoever looks at the bottom who cares what's in the bottom of the mouse, right?

01:29:29   It's like the sensors down there. But other than that like there's no you know, I'm in the store. I'm looking into them

01:29:33   I'm feeling the buttons. I'm feeling the wheels. I'm feeling the shape and I'm not looking at the bottom of the mouse

01:29:37   I should have been looking at the bottom of the mouse. I see the bottom of mine sometimes you do sure

01:29:42   Yeah, and then you stab it in its belly

01:29:44   But you know without looking I mean maybe you know this because you do charge it like a harpoon turtle

01:29:51   But without shooting and looking what's on the bottom of your mouse? What's going on down there?

01:29:55   There's a switch to turn it on and off

01:29:57   There's a charging hole and then there's the two long like rails of anti skid material that I have to scrape all the gunk off

01:30:04   Of sometimes yeah, so I mean, you know because you're cleaning it also because you harpoon it

01:30:08   But yeah that the Apple Mouse has two long vertical strips that go down the sides of the mouse two parallel lines of

01:30:14   Slippery material or whatever. Yeah, it cleans stuff off of those. I guess

01:30:18   Yeah

01:30:20   I should have looked at my old janky ancient lie detect mouse

01:30:25   Because one of the things I liked about that mouse that I quickly found is how it feels

01:30:33   Sliding across my mousing surface mousing services just as it's an Amazon basics mouse pad at this point like a mouse pads the holiday ratio

01:30:40   I really need to get a bigger one, but my keyboard tray is oddly shaped. So it's a pain

01:30:43   I might have to buy one and cut it. But anyway, it's just like I don't know mousepad material regular mousepad, but here

01:30:49   It's very thin. It's not like one of those thick ancient mouse pads from the 90s, right?

01:30:52   It's very thin but in the end it's a rubbery thing with kind of like a fabric surface on it

01:30:56   That's what I like to mouse on I'm open to other mounting services

01:30:59   But history has shown as I've tried many different ones is what I like

01:31:03   the way the little

01:31:05   Feet or whatever things on the bottom of your mouse slide across that surface makes a big difference in how a mouse feels

01:31:13   And if you've never looked down there or never made that connection if you have a mouse that you really like or really hate it

01:31:19   Could have something to do with how it actually interfaces with the surface. You're sliding it across my old lie detect had four feet

01:31:27   I think they're teflon because it's like a fairly slippery looking plastic

01:31:30   Four little tiny ovals of teflon at the four corners of the mouse

01:31:35   it was a fairly normal shape sort of rectangular mouse with a rounded back just four little things and

01:31:39   The mouse was very light all that meant that it slid very easily and silently

01:31:46   I know Casey's rolling his eyes when I'm talking about the noise my smile

01:31:49   The Apple one has way more contact than the four little points and I think is also heavier

01:31:59   So I don't you know, I don't we need to get dr. Drang here with coefficients of friction and all sorts of other stuff like

01:32:04   Spreading the weight across a larger area is good, but having slippery or materials

01:32:11   It's also good at being lighter weight is even better

01:32:13   Anyway, all this is to say I did not look at the bottom of any of the mice I got I should have

01:32:18   so for example

01:32:21   the Microsoft Mouse

01:32:23   You look at the bottom of this sucker

01:32:25   it instead of having

01:32:27   Some pads or rails it has the entire

01:32:30   Perimeter of the mouse like all like around the entire edge of the outer edge

01:32:35   just one big long continuous trail that goes around the entire outer edge of the of the bottom of the mouse and that is the

01:32:42   slippery stuff

01:32:45   Logitech mouse

01:32:46   has

01:32:48   five pads

01:32:49   four big triangle two big triangular ones at the back two squarish ones at the front and

01:32:55   Fifth one that's kind of off to the side where the little thumb thingy is

01:32:59   the MX master 3 has two

01:33:02   Vertical rails not as long as the Apple one but one on the left and one on the right and then it has two

01:33:07   semicircles on the front and the back

01:33:09   All this makes a difference and it factors in with the weight of the mouse as well

01:33:13   In how it feels and how it sounds going across the surface the Microsoft Mouse in the beginning

01:33:18   I put it down on a mouse, but I slid it and I'm like, oh no

01:33:22   This is not gonna work it was hard to slide and it made it like a noise like a

01:33:29   Sort of like fingers scraping across fabric and I was like am I imagining things I took my old mouse

01:33:36   I put it down and I moved it total silence and it moves really easily put the micro source mouse on it

01:33:40   Much harder to move and makes noise

01:33:43   Should have checked that but I didn't

01:33:46   Logitech mouse

01:33:48   The the the marathon not as quiet as my old one but quieter than the Microsoft one

01:33:53   But I didn't you know

01:33:56   Live and learn I didn't look at that, but I still wanted to give them all a fair shot

01:34:00   so one thing I learned by giving them all a fair shot is

01:34:03   There is a break-in period for a new mouse where the slippery junk on the bottom of the mouse

01:34:09   gets slipperier

01:34:11   today in the Microsoft Mouse

01:34:14   If I feel with my finger that little slippery rim, I think it's more slippery. I think it's been slowly been polishing it

01:34:20   It doesn't change the weight of the mouse and it doesn't change how the weight how the weight is distributed on the pad

01:34:25   But it does change the sound in the feel it gets slippery err

01:34:28   I have a feeling that my 10 year old logic mouse or even older than that

01:34:32   The really old janky one

01:34:35   Probably is way slipperier now

01:34:37   Then it was when I bought it kind of like if you buy a car and two years later you get better zero 60 times

01:34:42   Like you break the thing in right?

01:34:44   So I wasn't gonna reject these mice for the tracking but I did want to note

01:34:49   that the most important thing I learned from this experience so far is that is a factor consider it and

01:34:55   Test it and look into it and also consider that it may change over time

01:35:00   the other thing is

01:35:03   You know getting to back to the physical controls

01:35:05   The reason probably the main reason I got this Microsoft precision mouse is because this scroll wheel is fantastic

01:35:12   Now I know squirrels are passé and everyone wants to touch service yada yada. I'm not into touch service on a wheel

01:35:16   This is a metal wheel

01:35:19   that feels

01:35:21   Like an expensive knob in a car. It's got two modes

01:35:24   It's got the ratcheting mode and the free spinning mode the free spinning mode. It feels like it's on a ball bearing

01:35:28   Smooth as glass right solid smooth sort of a textured metal wheel

01:35:34   the button that switches modes

01:35:37   has this satisfying electro mechanical kathunk

01:35:41   I don't know if I can get it on the microphone here. Let's see

01:35:43   You're probably not gonna be able to hear that it's probably anyway

01:35:48   We heard it a satisfying funk where you can feel like something electrically activating and moving into place and moving back

01:35:56   And that and when it goes into ratchet mode

01:35:59   The ratcheting mode feels like an expensive car knob with like the little where you can feel like the little I forget what they're called

01:36:06   The little notches detents, I believe yeah, there you go

01:36:10   Um and but it's not noisy so here let me I'm gonna scroll the scroll wheel like this is this is like literally

01:36:16   You know my fingers practically touching my microphone

01:36:18   Right you should hear nothing nope yeah, nothing total total sight which is amazing

01:36:25   You know my old mouse you could hear it when it from the I'd scroll it and you could hear it in the next room

01:36:28   But you can still feel the little the little notches, right?

01:36:32   It's not the free wheeling scroll wheel thingy like the logic thing

01:36:39   well, I'll get to in a second where it's like

01:36:41   Spins and you can just give it a spin and like a roulette wheel just spin and spin and spin

01:36:45   And then you stop it with your finger the Microsoft mouse does not do that it has smooth and ratcheted, but in smooth mode

01:36:50   It's totally smooth. There is nothing impeding the movement, but it does not freewheel spin

01:36:56   Like it's damped right so if you flick it. It'll as soon as your finger leaves the wheel it will stop moving right

01:37:03   So that's the Microsoft mouse

01:37:06   shape-wise it has the

01:37:08   The little thumb rest flange, but it has very small thumb rest flange

01:37:12   You know I'm talking about like I'm a bottom of the mouse is the thing that sticks out of the side for your thumb to go

01:37:16   On not really a fan of that thing I'd just as soon do without it

01:37:19   But I bought the Microsoft one cuz I'm like look if I'm gonna have a thumb thing let's get a really tiny thumb thing

01:37:23   I've mostly gotten used to it. It still bothers me a little bit, but not too much

01:37:28   It's got this mouse has flat sides the buttons are really solid these side buttons

01:37:33   Which I mostly hate him will never use are very thin and out of the way

01:37:36   And they don't touch any part of my hand when I'm using the mouse which is nice

01:37:39   I do kind of appreciate having them there

01:37:42   I can imagine using that has three side buttons instead of just two which is nice and the mouse wheel clicks in for the third

01:37:47   button

01:37:49   The other thing that I learned from buying all these mice

01:37:53   And I learned with the Microsoft mouse first is that Bluetooth Bluetooth is garbage

01:37:58   What what how is it actually noticeable

01:38:05   Some maybe it's my environment. Maybe it's because my tower computer has bad antennas in as far away

01:38:10   but the Bluetooth signal from this Microsoft mouse to my computer is

01:38:15   Not good enough to get smooth mouse moving all the time

01:38:20   And it's not some Catalina thing where it's freaking out like it's it's fine most people wouldn't notice

01:38:25   But I can totally notice that the tracking is not great occasionally you get a little hitch. I

01:38:30   Don't know what the problem is

01:38:33   But I think it's Bluetooth or maybe it's this mouse because I tried the mouse on my wife's computer, too

01:38:38   Which presumably the Bluetooth is closer there?

01:38:40   It's like a 5k iMac and then we're right in front of it with the mouse, and it was mostly fine

01:38:44   But it had a couple of hiccups. She rejected it the first time it added any kind of tracking hiccup

01:38:50   She's like get this thing off my computer, and I don't blame her like when you move the mouse

01:38:54   It should move the cursor in a direct one-to-one connection

01:38:57   There should be no hitches especially if your computer is idle, and she's not on Catalina, right?

01:39:03   And so and she has had other Bluetooth peripherals, but you know that aren't pointing devices like Bluetooth keyboards and stuff like

01:39:08   yeah, the only reason I'm

01:39:12   Rejecting out of hand because I'm coming from a world with wired mice which never have this problem at all right and also

01:39:19   Because of Logitech so the Microsoft mouse I'll get the logic stuff in a second, but the Microsoft mouse in Bluetooth mode

01:39:26   unacceptable

01:39:29   Luckily the Microsoft mouse comes with a very very long thin

01:39:34   USB cable that you can connect to the front of it, and it becomes a wired mouse and in wired mode no problems

01:39:41   No hitches. No nothing on the other hand now. You have a wire attached. It's an interesting

01:39:45   You know the fact that you can just plug and unplug it at the mouse at the point of the mouse and such a thin

01:39:51   long cable is kind of nice because

01:39:53   When I have my work laptop here, and I'm working, but I have my computer sort of behind it

01:39:57   I can use the mouse with both I use it a wired mode with my Mac

01:40:00   And then when I unplug it it's paired with the laptop. You know I mean

01:40:03   On the same keyboard tray again more Logitech stuff on that in a moment, but I like that arrangement so

01:40:10   For a while the Microsoft mouse was my winner using it in wired mode because the ergonomics were right

01:40:18   I love the scroll wheel the buttons were great the shape was pretty good the thumb flange wasn't too low

01:40:22   I was breaking in the little pads in the bottom. I didn't have to deal with Bluetooth because it was plugged in

01:40:26   Logitech

01:40:28   Everyone knows Logitech has their own thing going on

01:40:31   with

01:40:34   You know before you before Bluetooth. They had their own little wireless

01:40:37   RF dongle you'd stick it into a USB port and

01:40:41   The mouse would communicate with it and as far as the computer was concerned

01:40:45   It's like there was a USB mouse connected to it, but really there was no wire there. You know it's it's like USB

01:40:50   But there's no cat

01:40:53   You two won't get that I that's like that's like a literary reference literary historical

01:40:58   It's a highbrow reference much higher brow like 80s movies. Oh my goodness our listeners will get it you can look it up after anyway

01:41:04   My wife has been using a wireless logic mouse with her computers since the 2011

01:41:13   MacBook Air I

01:41:15   Haven't you know I've been using wired peripherals, but I've seen people using at work

01:41:19   and

01:41:22   Let me tell you

01:41:24   Logitech again disclaimer they sent me a bunch of free stuff

01:41:27   So take this with the grain of salt if you want

01:41:30   But this is my opinion before they send me a bunch of free stuff as well that stupid little RF dongle is

01:41:35   Rock solid yeah, it always has been that's like that's like one of the great reasons to use Logitech stuff

01:41:43   is that those little RF dongles are way better than Bluetooth and

01:41:48   Usually they they also usually lead to much longer battery life in the in the mat in the mice

01:41:53   And it's just like everything about them is better. Yeah, it is fantastic you would think isn't this janky isn't this like a non

01:42:00   Apple non elegant solution shouldn't everything just be Bluetooth. It's built into your computer the answer is no that Logitech RF thing is

01:42:07   Amazing now a setting aside the USB 3.0 interference crap which is not Logitech's fault. It's probably Intel's fault right setting that aside

01:42:17   That stupid little dongle which now is microscopic

01:42:20   It just it is you know if you a be test me with a wired connection versus that RF thing

01:42:27   I'm not sure I could tell the difference it does not stutter

01:42:29   It does not switch the battery lasts for like seven years in the in your mouse. It is unbelievable

01:42:34   So and in general I tend to like Logitech mice

01:42:39   I mean again. I've been using that that older logic mice mouse for ten years right, so I'm pretty disposed like Logitech

01:42:45   The tracking was just it was just unbelievable right this the marathon doesn't have a USB connection

01:42:51   so I have to use the wireless one, but like

01:42:53   You know I was like ball

01:42:56   Logitech has this down. They've have cornered this market until Bluetooth can match it

01:43:01   I should just not even consider Bluetooth mice the marathon mouse

01:43:04   specifically the mouse wheel

01:43:07   Not as nice as the as the Microsoft one

01:43:09   It's it's a one that decides the scrolling sideways by tilting the mouse you remember that mechanism

01:43:14   Mm-hmm it's not

01:43:16   It has a ratcheting mode and it has a smooth mode the smooth mode is very smooth the ratcheting mode is ratcheting

01:43:22   But it's also it's also a rattle here. It's more fully listen to this

01:43:25   When you shake your mouse you shouldn't hear anything you shake this mouse you hear something

01:43:29   It's because there's a lot of play and the mouse wheel the buttons are okay

01:43:33   The shape is pretty good

01:43:35   But it's a little got a little bit of an overhang where your thumb goes instead of having straight sides like the Microsoft one

01:43:39   It's got two side buttons instead of three

01:43:43   The feet and the sort of the scrolling action or the I don't know what you call the the mousing action is better than having the

01:43:50   Perimeter, but it is also breaking in I think these pads are not even teflon

01:43:54   They're like weirdly textured so I think they're intentionally slowing it down a little bit

01:43:57   And I could do with it being a little bit more slick

01:43:59   But in the competition between these two mice which the first two that I bought the Microsoft one was winning, but I was using it wired

01:44:06   finally

01:44:08   The logic sent the MX master 3 which I know as the mouse that destroyed my carly's hands through RSI

01:44:14   Reputation that I what do you know about this mouse my curly had one in it hurt his hand

01:44:19   That's what I know about this mouse, and you know I know that it's been around for a while lots of people have it

01:44:24   You know and so on and so forth. It's there is their fancy mouse this has the thumb shelf to end all thumb shelves

01:44:30   I don't know what they are expecting you to put on there. I don't know how big people's thumbs are I I knew

01:44:35   There's a button in the thumb shelf a couple of the logic of mice have like it's button down there

01:44:39   I don't need a button in the thumb shelf this thumb shelf is so big I could fit like three fingers on it

01:44:43   I don't like I was intentionally avoiding this mouse and not getting it because I'm like all right

01:44:48   I can handle a thumb shelf, but not that thumb shelf right as

01:44:51   It turns out the gigantic thumb self is a problem, but it's not it was not the the first problem

01:44:58   I noticed the first one I noticed is that the thumb shelf and the whole wraparound thing of this mouse is

01:45:03   Sort of textured with like a scallops kind of corduroy type texture

01:45:07   That I do not find particularly pleasing. Can you only pet it in one direction?

01:45:11   I mean it is kind of unidirectional. I don't know like they're contour lines like on the bottom of a blue whale

01:45:20   Only on a mouse. I would prefer it if it was smooth

01:45:24   I love the idea that you think people will have seen a blue whale

01:45:28   Everyone knows what the underside of a blue whale looks like though when you see it in the encyclopedia with the big like

01:45:33   Vertical like corduroy stripes right I would guess that listeners of this show might actually be more likely to know what an MX master looks

01:45:40   Like then the underside of a certain type of whale

01:45:42   Some people know what animals look like Marco

01:45:45   Anyway the MX master is a very high mouse it is the highest one it is also the one that rotates your hand most

01:45:54   Most towards the hand shape shake grip. It's not a vertical mouse like a lot of people make vertical mice that

01:45:59   You put your hand on it the same in the same position as you would perform a handshake like vertically that is better

01:46:05   Ergonomically than turning your wrists inward. That's why keyboards are tilted and that's why you know split keyboards yada yada right so

01:46:11   Ergonomically I'm thinking this is probably better for hand position than these other mice

01:46:15   I do understand why Mike might have had RSI issues because the MX master has like

01:46:21   It's got a scroll wheel, but it also has a horizontal scroll wheel by your thumb

01:46:26   And it has two buttons by your thumb, and then it's got the main two buttons

01:46:29   And then it's got the gesture button down underneath your thumb

01:46:32   It's got a lot of controls and if you try to work all the controls

01:46:35   It's a little bit you have to be a little bit of a contortionist

01:46:37   You can mostly ignore the other controls if you don't want them because it's so high like the wheels up above your hand

01:46:45   Anyway the the scrolling action on this

01:46:51   Better than the cheaper logitech mice in terms of the smoothness of the pads moving across them not as smooth as my old mouse

01:46:56   But definitely smoother than the Microsoft mouse again

01:46:59   I'm talking about physically scraping across the thing the scroll wheel in this one

01:47:02   This is logitech's fancy scroll wheel it is metal. It is solid it has the same sort of silent ratcheting

01:47:08   Feel as the Microsoft one. Maybe a little bit less stiff

01:47:14   I still think Microsoft has the best scroll wheel on the market right now that I've tried

01:47:19   But this one has the thing where if you spin it real fast

01:47:22   They will auto switch from ratcheting mode to free spinning and this has the momentum

01:47:26   Where it will freely spin and keep spinning till you stop it in my experimentation because the other logic mouse also has that mode I

01:47:34   Found that I don't really like the free spinning mode

01:47:37   Or you just give it a spin and stop it when you hit where you want

01:47:40   That's not the way I like to work

01:47:42   I try to get used to it over the course of the whole weeks, and I couldn't but I am still playing with the

01:47:47   Logitech one where it's mostly ratcheting, but you don't have to switch modes itself little auto switch the modes for you

01:47:52   I'm using it wireless. I'm using it with the the little wireless dongle in recent decades

01:47:58   I don't know how long ago this happened probably five years ago or whatever

01:48:00   Logitech had changed their little RF dongle to be what they call a unifying receiver

01:48:06   Well, you just need one of those little turdied on goals, and you use it with any number

01:48:10   I don't know. There's probably a limit, but any number of logic peripherals and

01:48:13   this is good because

01:48:16   If you have like you know multiple mice and keyboards or whatever you could pair them all with that dongle

01:48:21   You don't need five USB ports right?

01:48:23   And they come with some software that to manage that which I actually installed

01:48:27   But you're like oh my god you bought hardware

01:48:29   And you installed installed drivers for it don't do that like if it works without the drivers by all means do not install any third-party stuff

01:48:35   And I know I hear where you're coming from there. That's usually my ethos, but well first of all I

01:48:42   Disobeyed that by buying steer mouse for the first two mice to mess with the tracking

01:48:47   Adjustments, I don't know if you remember the software. It's a it's like a USB mouse

01:48:52   Setting Swiss Army knife or you have

01:48:56   You can assign all the buttons on basically any mouse you can control the cursor by

01:49:01   adjusting the acceleration to like four decimal points and

01:49:05   sensitivity and and there's like window snapping and you know you can switch through different settings or different mice and save them and you

01:49:10   Could let the system control the mouse or let that you know it's very flexible be software

01:49:14   I highly recommend steer mouse despite the fact that a little mouse icon is

01:49:17   Herendis the ugly and they should have someone draw a new one for them because is

01:49:20   Uglier than all the mice that are on my desk. I don't it looks like

01:49:23   It looks like a tampon

01:49:28   Let's just say it looks like a plastic applicator tampon, please steer mouse change your change your icon to something else

01:49:33   So I already installed that and I found it extremely valuable for trying to adjust the tracking to make them all feel

01:49:40   Good like to make them all feel like the Apple Mouse basically in terms of acceleration curves and everything and surprisingly

01:49:46   They don't out of the box if you just use them without any drivers

01:49:49   But for the MX master, I installed the crazy logitech thing. That is a very wide tampon

01:49:55   Yeah, you know some people

01:49:58   Yeah

01:50:00   Yeah, the the logitech software is called logitech options. It has a terribly ugly icon, but the interface is actually pretty nice

01:50:07   I put a screenshot of it into our slack thing it shows you nice photos of the devices that are hooked up to your computer

01:50:12   And you click through to them and it lets you customize the buttons and lets you you know change the the scrolling stuff

01:50:18   You can change the sensitivity at which the wheel switches from ratcheting to free wheeling. There's a whole bunch of other options you have

01:50:23   Different things for scrolling and pointer speed and different settings for the you know like everything you would imagine

01:50:28   As far as I can tell it has not destroyed my computer the app seems to be well behaved and the tracking on this mouse

01:50:36   Again, I I can definitely say with his MX master. I could not tell the difference between this and a USB connected mouse

01:50:42   There's no way I could tell it is buttery smooth

01:50:45   Perfect precision in control no matter how fast them over the thing it is and it's amazing

01:50:50   Shape wise I thought it was gonna hate this thing because of the giant thumb shelf and cuz of how high it is

01:50:55   But in practice, I'm kind of getting used to it

01:50:58   Here is the one big downside and this is has a little bit to do with my setup here the gigantic thumb shelf

01:51:04   There is a little pad again the bottom of the mouse one of the slippery pads is under the thumb shelf at the edge

01:51:10   Because my mouse pad is not quite big enough

01:51:13   occasionally I will mouse to the left edge of my mouse pad when I'm traversing my gigantic monitor and

01:51:19   The mouse as far as I'm concerned has not left the edge of the mouse pad right because my thumb is still

01:51:26   Well within the perimeter of the mouse pad

01:51:29   but the stupid shelf six out so far that the shelf has left the edge of the mouse pad and

01:51:34   Now has fallen down like a millimeter and when I try to move it back

01:51:39   The little pad thing on the thumb shelf catches on the edge of the mouse pad, which is terrible

01:51:44   Which is another reason that a this thumb shelf shouldn't be as big but B

01:51:47   I need a bigger mouse pad so that I can make the mouse pad extend all the way so it hits the edge of my

01:51:52   keyboard and that way I

01:51:55   Can never be able to get the thumb shelf off the edge because before that happens the thumb shelf will hit my keyboard

01:52:00   So yeah in this competition right now

01:52:05   I'm using the MX master just because it is the newest one and I'm gonna give it a fair shake of using it for you

01:52:11   Know a week or so to see

01:52:13   My previous champion champion was the Microsoft mouse again

01:52:16   If you don't know

01:52:18   What a good knob on a toaster feels like or a good knob on a car feels like or a good scroll wheel feel like go

01:52:24   To a Microsoft store and feel the scroll wheel on the Microsoft precision mouse

01:52:28   Whoever made this scroll wheel deserves a raise as for the Windows logo

01:52:32   It's the new Windows logo

01:52:34   Which everybody knows but if you don't think about the new Windows logo is literally a square

01:52:38   With a vertical line and horizontal line going through the center of it. That's the logo

01:52:42   It is such a jerk

01:52:44   It is so generic that is very easy for me to look at this and absolutely not recognize that as a Windows logo

01:52:51   It's also gray on a black mouse, right? Oh, but you know, you know, well, I don't here's I want to say

01:52:56   This is a good peripheral. This is a good mouse

01:52:59   We talked about this or Microsoft has made and continues to make good peripherals

01:53:03   I there is you know, this mouse is better than Apple's mouse

01:53:07   Full stop for unless you like very low mice

01:53:10   So if you're like very low mice this now sucks because it's it's higher than the Apple Mouse, right?

01:53:14   But it's it's just plain better. It is ergonomically better and it's easier to hold it has more affordances

01:53:19   It the controls on it like the click feels higher quality than Apple's click on its giant mouse

01:53:25   It it's a good product. Like I don't you know, I

01:53:29   Microsoft makes a good product. They deserve to have their logo on this mouse

01:53:33   The MX master is a bit of an abomination. It has a bunch of crap sticking out of it that I'm never gonna use

01:53:38   But the scrolling on it is great. And the final thing is

01:53:41   Logitech has as part of this weird software that I installed that I hope I'm not gonna regret

01:53:47   They have a thing where

01:53:49   You can use multiple computers with the same set of peripherals and

01:53:54   Transparently switch between them so you can bring the mouse to one edge of your screen

01:53:59   The mouse cursor and it will leap on to another computer screen

01:54:04   No, KVM switching. No anything like literally the same mouse on two computers

01:54:09   Which you would think that's great because sometimes you've got your work laptop and your home thing

01:54:13   You're trying to do both at once and you don't have two mice and I don't use the trackpad

01:54:18   But it does that magic using networking and I think when my laptop's on the VPN that whole system won't work

01:54:23   So I'm probably not gonna bother trying with it the keyboard they sent

01:54:26   This is gonna probably drive marker up a wall, but this is definitely a thing

01:54:31   There's too much key travel

01:54:34   There's too much key travel, I mean, you know, I've been using the Apple unknown keep

01:54:41   I use the Apple extended to for years then I had our si issues and I found that the the Apple

01:54:45   USB keyboards with the you know, the very

01:54:49   Short light travel like the original Apple aluminum extended keyboard. I found that better for my RSI

01:54:55   And since then I've been a big proponent of these Apple monitors

01:54:57   They don't take a lot of pressure or distance to press the keys because that's better for my RSI

01:55:02   With the Apple extended - I was you know, hitting the keys too hard and it really exacerbated things, right?

01:55:07   I'm now on the keyboard that came with my Mac Pro, which is the magic key switches, which I love

01:55:13   I like these key switches. These are my favorite desktop key switches I've ever used in my post RSI era. I

01:55:19   Tried the Logitech keyboard and those keys have so much travel. I felt like I was going on a journey every time

01:55:26   They don't have as much travel as the Apple extended - like I'm not saying it's like that but compared to the magic key

01:55:32   Like I just thought I was putting in so much work

01:55:35   I don't I don't have the kind of time to wait for these keys to go down and the key caps are oddly shaped

01:55:40   Other than that the keyboard is and also the keyboard has like a kickstand on the back where it's like cranked up and that's exactly

01:55:45   The wrong thing for a keyboard to do it should be level or tilted away from you even but it weighs a ton

01:55:50   It is made of metal

01:55:50   But most importantly for the multi-computer scenario

01:55:52   That keyboard has three dedicated buttons where you can hit those buttons and it will cycle through three different computers again using this Logitech like

01:56:00   You know software and these unified receivers or whatever

01:56:03   So if you go all Logitech and if you do not have one of your computers on a VPN

01:56:08   You can use a single keyboard and a single mouse to interact with

01:56:11   Three of them at the same time by pressing buttons on the keyboard to switch what the input is and by just moving the mouse

01:56:17   Between the screens which is not a thing that I'm particularly interested in but I'm glad that feature exists and I have to say so far

01:56:24   Using their software that they installed that hopefully is not destroying my computer

01:56:28   It's fairly straightforward to use and other than the ugly icon. It seems

01:56:34   Kind of nice. I don't know. I mean, maybe maybe next we'll compensate logic software is destroyed my computer, but

01:56:39   So far, I think it's actually pretty nice and then finally finally the camera the you know

01:56:47   Cuz my six umpteen bajillion dollar

01:56:50   Prodisplay XDR does not come with the camera of any kind but Logitech will sell you one for

01:56:56   What is like 200 bucks or something? It's expensive. Anyway, it's a quote-unquote webcam. I think it's 4k

01:57:03   I had a few curiosities about this one

01:57:06   How do you have to connect it to your computer so that it works?

01:57:09   And to how is the interface between like how does it physically connect?

01:57:17   Yeah, I know they said it's like magnetic or whatever. But how does that work? Like is it just you know

01:57:21   Because the monitor case I'm assuming is aluminum which is not particularly magnetic. How does it actually connect?

01:57:28   Well, so the physical connection as far as I can tell and I really don't want anyone to tell me

01:57:34   Otherwise because then I'll have to take out a tape measure

01:57:36   It's like on the smart cover thing on iPads

01:57:40   We're like it kind of like there's magnets in the device and also magnets in the cover and they line up with each other

01:57:45   So it's kind of hard to get a smart cover on

01:57:47   The wrong way like it just snaps in and you don't have to worry like oh is it is it off is it shifted?

01:57:52   It's oh it just it goes into position. Right? So you bring this

01:57:57   camera near the top of this monitor and it just chunk magnetizes right to a

01:58:03   Spot that I assume is dead center in the monitor

01:58:06   Which I find extremely pleasing and please don't tell me if it's not true

01:58:10   I because I think that's the only place that goes on

01:58:12   I don't think you can put it on a left or on the right. I think it only magnetized in the middle

01:58:16   Second thing is connecting with the cable. It's USB C. There's a little USB C port in the back of the camera and

01:58:23   You could connect that all sorts of places. I could run a cable from the camera to the back of my computer to the top

01:58:28   of my computer but also

01:58:30   To the USB C ports that are on the back of my monitor. Ah, but with the base video card

01:58:35   the

01:58:37   radion

01:58:38   580 X

01:58:39   those USB ports are only USB 2.0 because all the high-speed lanes in the connection between the computer and the monitor being taken up by the

01:58:46   Non display stream compressed video. So all I've got left is USB 2.0. Is that sufficient for 4k video?

01:58:54   The camera comes with a tiny little cable

01:58:57   That connects directly from the camera and is just long enough to reach any one of the three USB C ports

01:59:04   Which I super appreciate because cable management is an issue and this is a tiny beautiful purpose-built cable

01:59:10   One is a right angle

01:59:13   The connector is a right angle for going into the back of the monitor and the other one goes in or maybe I'm reversed

01:59:17   Anyway, it's it's like a perfectly sized cable

01:59:20   Plugged it into the back of the monitor. I think it's working. I open FaceTime. I saw myself

01:59:24   I think I was in 4k is really hard for me to tell

01:59:28   The camera tilts which is nice

01:59:31   The monitor is so big that I have to tilt the camera down even though I like I ergonomically adjusted it

01:59:37   So that's top of monitor is directly aligned with my eye line, right? That's where I have lined up

01:59:41   Even doing that and maybe I'm just slouching all the time

01:59:44   I don't know but I had to aim the camera down to get like a view of myself

01:59:48   And I like the view of the room behind me. So it's aimed down a little bit the only way

01:59:53   The whole physical setup could be better one if the camera was smaller because obviously it's a little comically large for what it's doing

02:00:00   I don't know what the hell is inside that thing, but it's like come on you can build

02:00:04   Granted a crappier camera, but a so much smaller one in the 5k

02:00:09   I'm act so much so that you don't even see that it's there now. I have this thing sitting on top of my monitor

02:00:13   That's a little bit overwhelming and to

02:00:17   I everyone should see this one coming

02:00:19   I would like it better if the tiny little purpose-built cable that came to connect this camera to the back of my monitor was

02:00:26   Braided in black. Yep, you got it braided in black make everything braid it

02:00:32   But anyway, I will accept this merely black but not braided cable because it is the perfect length. Oh my word. So

02:00:38   And then so the the gaming mouse I'm interested in because of the high dpi and because the shape of it is the closest to my

02:00:44   Old mouse, but I haven't tried that yet

02:00:46   So I haven't sitting here with this computer with multiple mice

02:00:51   I think I've had at least three mice sitting on this desk all connected to the computer at the same time for

02:00:55   You know multiple weeks now

02:00:58   I'm not sure when I'm ever going to pick a winner and retire one

02:01:02   But right now it feels like the Microsoft mouse is probably still in the lead

02:01:06   But the MX master had a few days in it and it's really nice

02:01:09   so the lesson here is that if you haven't looked at the world of

02:01:15   third-party mice

02:01:16   Look at it because there's some good stuff out there

02:01:18   And you may be surprised to find something that you know

02:01:23   Your react both of your reactions looking at the beating of these things. They are

02:01:26   only looking they're not

02:01:29   they're not like sleek or

02:01:32   Beautiful, but some of them really are good

02:01:35   Knob feel is a thing mouse feels a thing and in particular

02:01:40   Non Bluetooth connections of your mice is also a thing do not turn your nose up at it because it's old tech

02:01:46   It's old tech that works. I

02:01:48   Will also add very briefly here you mentioned during your keyboard segment that it would probably drive me crazy that you were saying you wanted

02:01:55   a keyboard with less travel I

02:01:57   Actually just by coincidence happened to between last week and this week

02:02:02   Change my keyboard temporarily

02:02:05   I usually use the Microsoft sculpt ergonomic keyboard

02:02:10   Not the surface ergonomic the sculpt ergonomic that is a it is a split black keyboard with a gap in the middle and elevated on the front

02:02:17   So it's by far my favorite ergonomic keyboard and I've been using it for a number of years now

02:02:22   However, there is one fatal flaw with the Microsoft sculpt ergonomic keyboard

02:02:27   After a while, it just kind of flakes out then you got to replace it

02:02:31   like there's no there's no coming back from it like after a while like keystrokes will start like

02:02:36   Queuing up or getting missed or something and you can change the batteries and you can move the receiver around and it just never fixes

02:02:41   Itself, you just have to replace it. Fortunately. They're only about 60 bucks mine last about two years

02:02:47   So I wore out the current one. I was using went to the closet had to get the next one

02:02:51   But I thought well now that I'm replacing it

02:02:53   I've gone through this, you know

02:02:55   This kind of self-improvement kick for the last couple of years and one of the things that mentioned on the show is I tried to eliminate

02:03:02   Myself from like being able to from having to say like oh, I don't like an entire class of food

02:03:07   so like now I can eat seafood for instance that I used to I used to say like I don't like seafood and that would

02:03:11   Make it hard to go to certain types of restaurants and I hated that limitation

02:03:15   so I I've slowly worked to like eliminate my limitations as much as possible and

02:03:20   One of the things I thought was now that I'm in better shape than I've ever been in

02:03:25   Yeah, you know I have like regular exercise my my arms and wrists are in better condition than they've been in

02:03:31   Maybe I don't need a split ergonomic keyboard anymore

02:03:34   I would love to be able to just comfortably use any

02:03:36   keyboard again and be able to join this like

02:03:39   you know mechanical keyboard revolution everyone's going through and everything and I happen to have in my closet for years a

02:03:44   Filco magistux to ten keyless mechanical keyboard with the cherry MX Brown switches

02:03:49   I bought it years ago thinking maybe I would try it then tried it for about a week

02:03:54   Started getting sore and put it in the closet

02:03:58   so I thought now that I'm between keyboards while I replace my sculpt, let me try that again and

02:04:04   Sure enough the you know, the sculpt has scissor style keys, you know laptop kind of travel scissor style keys

02:04:11   The Filco of course has like the big mechanical cherry MX key

02:04:15   So like, you know big full travel it felt weird to me to go back is like I've been using scissor keys

02:04:21   You know on my desktop and my laptop full-time

02:04:26   For over a decade and so it's been a very long time since I've used like full big

02:04:32   kachunk style keys and

02:04:35   It really did feel weird to me and I ended up putting it back not because of the travel

02:04:39   Although it I didn't give it enough time to get used to it

02:04:42   I gave it less than a day but because I kept hitting

02:04:45   the wrong modifiers and everything because I realized that the sculpt has kind of ruined me for placement of

02:04:53   What it is labeled as the alt key but what functionally behaves as the command key the key next to the spacebar that modifies

02:05:00   Here your commands

02:05:02   it lines up its alt key almost below the E and

02:05:07   most keyboards align that key below the W or

02:05:11   bridging between the W and the E and

02:05:14   So I realize I'm actually kind of like my muscle memory of my left hand hitting

02:05:20   Command slash alt and all of the keys on that side like W E, you know for window closing stuff like that

02:05:26   It was all off. I kept like accidentally quitting my apps

02:05:29   I was hitting Q instead of W and everything it was it was crazy

02:05:31   And so I had to switch back just because like that was too much of an adjustment for me like that and the key travel

02:05:37   It just felt really weird to me. So I'm kind of ruined now and like now I kind of feel like

02:05:42   Scissor keys are my full travel keyboard and I mean again really they have been for over a decade

02:05:49   If I'm honest with myself, but I wonder if that will ever transition further

02:05:54   Like I wonder if I will slowly get used to the lower and lower travel scissor key

02:05:59   Switches that Apple's moving towards over the years and maybe eventually I won't care and I'll be like, yeah bring me the butterfly

02:06:04   God, I hope not

02:06:07   You'll be ready to be ready to type on glass. Yeah, right exactly

02:06:10   Like it like is this like is there a a lower limit to like how what we will get used to

02:06:15   Honestly, I think the butterfly keyboard might have shown like oh, yeah. Okay. There is such something is too far

02:06:19   I think Apple had a patent on a negative travel keyboard where the buttons actually bulge out at you. Yeah, they hit you

02:06:24   They did have a thing where it's like the screen bulges so you could feel where the keys are

02:06:29   Which is basically negative travel if they don't go in like that reaches out to touch you

02:06:33   Yeah, mechanical keyboards do feel like I used you know, the Apple extended to I used from

02:06:40   You know the the release of the sc30 all the way up until I think my blue and white g3

02:06:47   Just that same keyboard. I've extended to and then I switched to USB full travel keyboards and then I switched to the

02:06:53   Lower travel ones. But yeah, it does feel weird to go back

02:06:56   It feels like I said, it feels like you're going on quite a journey to get each key. Press. It's like

02:07:00   Feels like you're using your whole arm. It's like really and you know, again technology marches on I I

02:07:07   still vastly prefer this

02:07:10   Whatever key switches are in this magic keyboard that came with my mac probably prefer that to the butterfly switches

02:07:14   and by the way, I just got my

02:07:16   2017 MacBook Pro back from repair at work and you know

02:07:21   I'm assuming they did a total keyboard replacement because I think that's the only way you can repair these things

02:07:26   But my spacebar is back

02:07:28   It they didn't replace it with the membrane one as far as I can tell I think you're not even able to replace it with

02:07:32   The membrane one because it feels the same as it did but but yeah this

02:07:37   You know, I've never really seriously considered a different keyboard

02:07:40   I really like this one that came with the Mac Pro and it the key travels got to be like a

02:07:44   Third or a quarter of what it was on the Apple extended to maybe maybe less maybe I'm you underestimate it. Oh

02:07:50   I I forgot the one thing I forgot to mention about the Logitech ridiculous software that it comes with

02:07:57   Because this mouse has a million different settings on it. Well, so cool things that this thing does it has

02:08:04   Settings for each of your devices and you can also use per application settings and it syncs them all to the cloud

02:08:10   So no matter what, you know, they have some kind of cloud service no matter what Mac you hook up to or any any computer

02:08:15   Mac or PC that you use this mouse with it will remember

02:08:19   Your preferences for how the buttons work and how the scroll wheel works and how the tracking works

02:08:23   Which is great like not having to sync that up. That's a great use of the cloud

02:08:26   And the second thing is it comes with a bunch of saved

02:08:31   Sets of like here. We've customized the things for this app, right?

02:08:35   So I'm in Chrome now and if I do the horizontal scroll wheel it switches between tabs

02:08:40   I don't know what all the settings are. I didn't look at them like it that prompts you and says hey

02:08:44   Do you want to try all these settings and I was like, you know what?

02:08:45   Why the hell not?

02:08:46   Like it has ones for Photoshop

02:08:48   It has ones for a whole bunch of common apps where it tries to make all the various buttons and stuff do things that are

02:08:53   Interesting and useful in those apps. Obviously you can customize this yourself again

02:08:57   Maybe why Mike got RSI maybe had a logic setup where he was doing all sorts of commands with it or whatever

02:09:02   But I like the idea that they do most of that work for you and sync it all through the cloud and have sort of

02:09:07   Third-party sharing of things steer mouse has that too, by the way

02:09:09   There's like hey here are settings that other people found useful for this particular mouse in terms of acceleration and sensitivity that works with you

02:09:17   Know and I would try other people settings that are like rated with star ratings or something and see

02:09:21   How how do other people have it set up and do I like it?

02:09:26   That is technology that's like above and beyond like

02:09:28   What you would think of in the old days of like you connect a mouse with the computer and it is what it is

02:09:32   It's so much beyond that town

02:09:34   I'm I'm I'm really I'm proud of Logitech for like I expected their software to be garbage and I expected

02:09:40   Their mice to be kind of clunky and these things feel really solid and their software seems pretty good and has useful features

02:09:47   I know again

02:09:48   I know it sounds terrible because they just sent me a bunch of free stuff

02:09:50   But this was my opinion before they sent me the free stuff as well take it take it as you will

02:09:54   Thanks to our sponsors this week Squarespace, Linode and Mack Weldon and we will see you next week

02:10:01   Now the show is over they didn't even mean to begin because it was accidental

02:10:10   It was accidental

02:10:13   John didn't do any research Margo and Casey wouldn't let him because it was accidental

02:10:21   It was accidental

02:10:24   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

02:10:30   And if you're into Twitter you can follow them

02:10:34   @CASEYLISS

02:10:38   So that's Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

02:10:43   Auntie Marco Armin S-I-R-A-C

02:10:48   USA, Syracuse

02:10:51   It's accidental

02:10:53   It's accidental

02:10:55   They didn't mean to

02:10:57   Accidental

02:10:59   Tech Podcast so long

02:11:03   You know I didn't get a chance to say this in the show

02:11:07   But I don't understand why you don't just do what I did which I a year or two ago would have seemed like heresy

02:11:13   I hope I pronounced that right, but anyways

02:11:15   It's pronounced "hear-say"

02:11:17   Yeah, "hear-say"

02:11:19   But anyways switching to the Magic Trackpad which I'm actually surprised

02:11:24   I hate trackpads. Oh my god. You should have had that you should have had this on no trackpads

02:11:28   Never. John no no John a year ago. I completely agree with you a year ago

02:11:32   I am I am probably more devout my hatred a year ago of trackpads than you are, but now I'm happy with it

02:11:39   I'm never switching to a trackpad. That's one of the reasons I hate laptops

02:11:42   I I grew up with mice the way other people grew up with walking like

02:11:46   Try like dragging your body across the ground by your teeth no

02:11:53   I'm always going to walk. I am always going to use a mouse for things that are mouse like oh my god

02:11:59   I hate trackpads

02:12:00   I understand why you have to have one on a laptop because it's a laptop as the only reason everyone will ever use one wow

02:12:07   John I'm telling you a year ago. I would have been even more devout. As an accessory like how Marker uses it

02:12:14   Yeah, then you're like a two-handed thing. This is my swipey pad, and this is my mouse, but no I got it

02:12:19   I'm a big fan left hand trackpad right hand mouse big fan, but but I got the cursor is controlled by the mouse

02:12:24   mouse.

02:12:25   [beeping]

02:12:25   (beeping)