353: Modern-Day Dialup


00:00:00   - With the hyphen? - Modern hyphen day.

00:00:02   - Yes. - Don't put a hyphen in dialup,

00:00:04   though, I don't think, let's check that.

00:00:06   - No, 'cause modern day is a modifier of dialup.

00:00:08   - I know, but I mean like,

00:00:09   dialup I think might be a hyphenated word.

00:00:11   - Oh.

00:00:12   - I gotta look. - I didn't think about that.

00:00:14   - See, Wikipedia has it with the hyphen.

00:00:16   - We can just choose not to, you know,

00:00:19   that is something we could do.

00:00:20   - I know, I'm just making sure,

00:00:21   I'm just making sure without is even an option.

00:00:23   - The Apple dictionary only has it in the hyphenated form.

00:00:26   - I know, I'm just, I'm looking.

00:00:28   That's usually my reference is the dictionary app.

00:00:30   - Yeah, I think you have to have a hyphen.

00:00:34   I think without the hyphen is not a thing.

00:00:36   - Oh, this is hyphens run wild.

00:00:38   The hyphens do not own you, gentlemen.

00:00:40   Just choose not to.

00:00:42   Well, it's going in without the hyphen.

00:00:43   - No, you can't just make up your own words.

00:00:45   - Modern hyphen day space dialup.

00:00:48   - No, that, dialup is apparently not a word.

00:00:51   If you don't put the hyphen there,

00:00:53   the pens are gonna all email us and say,

00:00:55   "You know, 'dulup' is not a word."

00:00:57   I really don't think anyone is going to email us.

00:00:59   - Oh, are you kidding?

00:01:01   - Challenge accepted.

00:01:02   - Yeah, I think we could get away with that one

00:01:04   without a single email, actually.

00:01:05   I think I'm on Casey's side of this bet.

00:01:07   I don't think we would hear about it from anybody.

00:01:09   - Does Chris Pepper listen to this podcast?

00:01:11   - Ultimately, Jon is gonna go in

00:01:14   and change it out from under us anyway,

00:01:15   so I wouldn't worry about it.

00:01:16   - Just put the hyphen, just be correct.

00:01:17   Why would we intentionally not be correct?

00:01:19   What are you making this stand about?

00:01:20   What are you proving?

00:01:22   - I'm proving that I am better than a need

00:01:26   to make the dialogue gods, the hyphen gods, happy.

00:01:29   - What makes you better?

00:01:31   There's no such thing as hyphen gods,

00:01:33   so what are you trying to say?

00:01:33   - Because I am choosing, I am making a creative choice.

00:01:36   I am making a creative choice to not use the hyphen.

00:01:39   - What are you expressing with that creative choice?

00:01:41   - That I think it's, hyphens, too many hyphens,

00:01:43   if we put the hyphens--

00:01:44   - You think there are too many hyphens.

00:01:45   That's what you're expressing.

00:01:46   This is the hill you're gonna die on.

00:01:48   - I mean, I would argue that it,

00:01:49   I think if email lost its hyphen,

00:01:51   which it did like forever ago,

00:01:53   I would classify this as similar.

00:01:56   - I feel like dial-up lived and died

00:01:58   without ever losing its hyphen.

00:02:00   Like it's not gonna lose its hyphen now,

00:02:02   'cause who the hell ever talks about dial-up?

00:02:03   Like it is a fossil.

00:02:05   - We just did.

00:02:06   - I think you should put the hyphen.

00:02:08   - We are fossils.

00:02:09   - I would like to lodge an official complaint

00:02:15   to the group, please.

00:02:17   I received an unsolicited package in the mail today,

00:02:19   and Marco, you seem to have sent me the incorrect M6.

00:02:24   You have sent me but a mere model

00:02:26   as opposed to an actual M6.

00:02:29   So I would like to officially file a complaint

00:02:31   with the board that you have sent to the incorrect sized M6.

00:02:35   I literally can put it in my pocket,

00:02:37   which means it is considerably too small.

00:02:39   I mean, what is this, an M6 for ants?

00:02:41   - It's last year's model.

00:02:42   Why you gotta send that back?

00:02:43   Say, no, I'm sorry, the six isn't a thing anymore.

00:02:46   It's the eight now.

00:02:47   - So all kidding aside, Marco sent me a BMW hat,

00:02:50   which I already have one just like it,

00:02:52   as did you, if I'm not mistaken,

00:02:53   'cause I believe I got it from driving school.

00:02:55   You sent me a mug and you sent me a model M6.

00:02:58   I believe that was it.

00:03:00   - I think so.

00:03:01   - Which is very kind of you to move your shit

00:03:03   from your house to my house.

00:03:04   Now I have to deal with it.

00:03:06   But be that as it may, when you bought the i3,

00:03:09   they just threw random swag at you?

00:03:11   - Yes, like when, so--

00:03:13   - Cool.

00:03:14   - Yeah, for Tiff's recent i3 release,

00:03:15   they gave us like this bag on the way out

00:03:18   of just a whole bunch of random BMW stuff.

00:03:20   - Yeah, it's all last year's BMW stuff.

00:03:22   That's why they're getting rid of it.

00:03:23   - Right.

00:03:24   (laughing)

00:03:25   And we thought, well, we don't really need any of this stuff.

00:03:27   But it would be funny to just mail it all to Casey.

00:03:30   So that's what we did.

00:03:31   - Thank you so much.

00:03:32   - You know how much he loves BMWs now.

00:03:33   - Exactly.

00:03:34   - Yes, exactly.

00:03:35   - Speaking of your poor car,

00:03:36   I just saw something flipping through a magazine today.

00:03:38   - Wait, can we be more specific?

00:03:39   Whose poor car are we speaking of?

00:03:41   - Casey's poor car.

00:03:42   I saw something flipping through a magazine today

00:03:44   that seemed to indicate to me

00:03:46   that the new Golf R will only come with an automatic.

00:03:51   - Oh, no.

00:03:52   I believe it's pronounced Golf R.

00:03:53   - That's what I saw in a chart.

00:03:55   I don't think it's set in stone yet,

00:03:58   but that seemed to be the indication of this chart.

00:04:00   The other thing I learned is that the default transmission

00:04:04   for the Golf in Europe is a stick,

00:04:07   still, for the new generation one.

00:04:09   That's what you get if you don't select any options.

00:04:11   - Well, and that's the thing is, here in America,

00:04:13   if I were, actually, I'd be very curious to hear you guys,

00:04:16   what you would say about this.

00:04:17   But my question is, what is going to be the last car

00:04:22   to get rid of the stick?

00:04:23   And to me, I know, John, you're gonna say the Civic,

00:04:26   but I think if I were to wager a guess,

00:04:29   I would say it'll be either the GTI

00:04:32   or the Jeep Wrangler, of all things, and I really mean that.

00:04:36   John, I'm assuming you're gonna say the Civic.

00:04:38   - No, I'm not gonna say the Civic.

00:04:39   I think it's going to be some weird, expensive,

00:04:44   not exotic car, but to give an example,

00:04:47   I forget which car it was, some car from some company,

00:04:49   it might be Aston Martin, it might be,

00:04:51   one of those type of brands is introducing a new model

00:04:55   that comes with a stick, like a new trim level

00:04:57   of an existing model where they just keep making

00:04:58   different revisions of it, and one of the revisions is like,

00:05:00   and this one comes with a stick,

00:05:01   and it's just totally out of left field,

00:05:03   and it's only there to satisfy a few weird people.

00:05:06   It's not even presented as a performance thing.

00:05:08   Like, that type of thing, where there's no reason for this,

00:05:11   but you're already buying an Aston Martin,

00:05:13   it wasn't Aston, it was some other car company,

00:05:14   but you're already buying a car

00:05:16   for like 200 and something grand,

00:05:17   and we keep making new trim levels every year

00:05:19   'cause we don't wanna have to,

00:05:21   there's a long gap between the years,

00:05:22   and so we make the one that has the pinstripe,

00:05:24   and the one with the big wing, and the four-wheel drive one,

00:05:27   and the convertible one, and then eventually,

00:05:29   they make one with the stick,

00:05:30   and that's gonna be the last car that's gonna have a stick.

00:05:31   It'll be an expensive novelty for very rich people

00:05:34   on very expensive cars.

00:05:36   - Okay, that's a fair answer.

00:05:38   If I were to now move the goalposts

00:05:40   and change it to be a car that a regular human can buy,

00:05:44   what would you say?

00:05:45   - In the US.

00:05:46   - In the US, in the US.

00:05:47   - Maybe, is the Civic still available with stick?

00:05:50   - No, the Civic is not, if it was gonna be a Honda,

00:05:53   it would be like the Fit or something,

00:05:54   but I'm thinking about if the economies of scale

00:05:57   will get to the point where they're not gonna do that either.

00:05:59   - But you gotta figure out the Civic Type R

00:06:02   would probably be a pretty good candidate for that,

00:06:03   'cause it's a pretty high selling, I think,

00:06:06   car that the audience would want it to be stick

00:06:08   for a long time.

00:06:09   - But it's also aspirational in that it aspires

00:06:12   to a very fast automated manual or a very fast automatic,

00:06:16   because that's what the exotic cars all have.

00:06:18   So the Ferraris don't have them anymore

00:06:19   and the Civic wants to be a little mini Ferrari,

00:06:21   so I feel like it's gonna go that way.

00:06:23   I'm gonna go out of left field and say some Mazda,

00:06:28   like the Miata.

00:06:30   - Hmm, okay, I can buy that.

00:06:32   I've never driven a Miata.

00:06:33   I've heard they are phenomenally fun.

00:06:35   They are extremely slow, but phenomenally fun.

00:06:37   - I think only Marco can fit in one, unfortunately.

00:06:39   (laughing)

00:06:41   - They are very small.

00:06:42   They're very small. - They're nothing.

00:06:44   So Marco, back years and years ago,

00:06:46   when you were living in the dark ages

00:06:48   and using dead dinosaurs to move you around

00:06:51   from town to town, some of us chose to use a transmission

00:06:55   that required you to have three pedals.

00:06:58   That's what we call a stick.

00:06:59   I know this is hard for you to remember now.

00:07:01   (laughing)

00:07:02   If you remember those dark, dark, terrible days,

00:07:05   if you were to guess which American affordable car

00:07:09   would be the last car to have one of these

00:07:10   just horrible devices, which would you guess?

00:07:14   - Well, I just did.

00:07:15   (laughing)

00:07:16   I guessed the Civic Type R.

00:07:17   I think that might be my final guess.

00:07:21   'Cause I'm trying to think,

00:07:23   'cause it would be something that's,

00:07:25   I think we're almost out of the time period now

00:07:28   where people would just get it out of cheapness.

00:07:31   There's only, are there any cars left in the US

00:07:33   that have a stick as the base model just for cheapness?

00:07:36   - Oh yeah, sure.

00:07:37   I think the Fit still does, to give you an example.

00:07:40   There's lots of, it's still happening now.

00:07:42   I think your answer, Marco, should be the surprise answer,

00:07:45   which you probably don't even want to hear.

00:07:46   But electric cars are starting to come with transmissions.

00:07:49   And if one doesn't already come with a manual,

00:07:51   there will be an electric car with a manual transmission.

00:07:53   As absurd as that sounds to you.

00:07:56   I'm pretty sure there is one now as well.

00:07:58   - Yeah, wasn't there a--

00:07:59   - Why?

00:08:00   - I think there was a one-off Mustang, if I'm not mistaken,

00:08:03   that they put a stick in.

00:08:05   - Yeah, that's what it is.

00:08:06   It wasn't, not the Mach-E,

00:08:07   but there was some electrified Mustang

00:08:09   that had a manual transmission, yeah.

00:08:11   Why?

00:08:12   They have transmissions for the same reason

00:08:14   that gas cars have transmissions,

00:08:15   to more efficiently put the power to the road.

00:08:17   Like the Taycan, I can't do it.

00:08:21   The Taycan has two-speed transmissions.

00:08:24   It's not manual, obviously, but it has two speeds.

00:08:25   So when you go highway cruising,

00:08:27   your engines can be going at lower speed,

00:08:28   and it's more efficient for battery power.

00:08:30   - Is it that much more efficient?

00:08:32   - Yeah, it shifts at like 60 when you're flat out, yeah.

00:08:35   So anyway, the possibility of electric cars

00:08:39   with manual transmissions does exist,

00:08:40   and so you should predict the last car

00:08:41   that's gonna have one is gonna be,

00:08:42   I mean, it still fits in my model

00:08:44   of some novelty expensive car.

00:08:45   I just didn't say whether that car would be electric or not,

00:08:47   but it could be.

00:08:48   - Can you feel the shift like you can in a regular car?

00:08:51   - Yeah, it's the same thing.

00:08:51   It's just a power source and some kind of clutch

00:08:54   that you actuate with a pedal with your left foot,

00:08:56   and then you, the whole nine yards,

00:08:59   different gear ratios, and yeah.

00:09:00   - Why would you want, see, look,

00:09:02   the whole reason I like a stick or a DCT

00:09:05   is because transmissions are terrible,

00:09:08   and the best transmission is no transmission,

00:09:10   but if there's gonna be one,

00:09:11   I wanna decide what it does, dammit.

00:09:13   But if you have a type of drivetrain,

00:09:16   like a pure electric, that for the most part

00:09:18   doesn't really need a transmission,

00:09:20   why would you add one?

00:09:22   - Well, like I said, you're adding it

00:09:23   because it's more efficient.

00:09:24   You get better mileage.

00:09:25   Like the two-speed and the Taycan,

00:09:27   you get better acceleration numbers

00:09:28   'cause you have shorter gearing from a standstill,

00:09:32   and then you have more efficient highway cruising

00:09:33   because it's taller gearing.

00:09:34   It's the same reason the gas cars do it, it's exactly it.

00:09:37   - Why doesn't Tesla use the exact same setup then?

00:09:40   - They're not using, they're using like half the voltage

00:09:42   that the Taycan is using,

00:09:44   and there's all sorts of things

00:09:46   about Tesla's original electric system

00:09:48   that are different about the Porsche one.

00:09:50   So the trade-offs Porsche is making

00:09:51   allow it to charge faster,

00:09:53   allow it to be slightly more efficient,

00:09:54   allow it to have slightly better performance.

00:09:56   I'm assuming the next-gen Tesla stuff

00:09:57   will do all the same things

00:09:58   'cause everyone's going to that

00:09:59   whatever it is, 800-volt setup.

00:10:01   So that's just sort of a generational thing.

00:10:02   Doesn't mean they'd have to have a transmission.

00:10:04   It just, you know, there's an advantage to it.

00:10:07   Like, simplicity is the advantage of not having one,

00:10:09   but you get some range and performance benefits

00:10:12   to having one.

00:10:13   It's only two-speed, right?

00:10:15   It's not like there's 900 gears or whatever.

00:10:16   And the only reason you'd have a manual is, like I said,

00:10:18   to satisfy weird people who want to shift themselves.

00:10:20   It's massively less efficient than letting it shift yourself.

00:10:23   - Ooh, ooh, ooh.

00:10:24   When they, if they only have two gears,

00:10:26   can we bring back the turbo button

00:10:28   that computers used to have?

00:10:29   (laughing)

00:10:30   - Well, but then what would it do

00:10:32   with that downshift into the lower gear?

00:10:34   'Cause I think you can't, if you're over like 60,

00:10:36   you can't be in the lower gear in the Taycan.

00:10:40   Like, it's, you know, that's the end of the gear,

00:10:43   as far as, like, I don't know what you would press the button

00:10:45   to make it do, 'cause it's not really gonna make you

00:10:47   go any faster in any real situation.

00:10:50   If you're gonna make it go slower,

00:10:51   you could force it to upshift to 30,

00:10:52   and then all of a sudden, your car has worse performance.

00:10:55   - Oh, man.

00:10:56   I hope that day is coming, not at all soon,

00:10:59   but it could be coming.

00:10:59   The reason I was very confused about bad news for my car

00:11:03   is because my car is actually currently at a body shop,

00:11:05   because I got lightly rear-ended a week or two ago.

00:11:08   And so, I, a young person in a,

00:11:13   what is that unremarkable Jeep,

00:11:15   like a Compass or something like that?

00:11:16   - All of them.

00:11:17   There's a lot of unremarkable Jeeps right now.

00:11:19   - Fair, fair, fair.

00:11:20   But anyway, we were at a stoplight.

00:11:22   I was, it had just turned green.

00:11:24   I was just about to take off,

00:11:25   and I felt like a very subtle bump in the back,

00:11:28   to the point that I honestly had thought I had stalled.

00:11:30   That's how subtle it was.

00:11:32   And then Aaron said, "Did we just get hit?"

00:11:34   And I stopped, and I realized, oh, yes, yes we did.

00:11:37   And so, because Virginia is a lovely, wonderful state,

00:11:41   well, Commonwealth strictly speaking,

00:11:43   that does so many things right.

00:11:45   - It's such a nerd.

00:11:46   - Does so many things right, except we are monsters,

00:11:50   and require a front license plate.

00:11:52   And so, the screw, one of the screws

00:11:54   that was holding this individual's front license plate

00:11:58   onto their car kind of, not punched a hole,

00:12:01   but sort of kind of punched a hole in the paint,

00:12:02   I guess you could say, of my bumper.

00:12:04   And so, yeah, that's a thing,

00:12:06   and it's been at the repair shop for a day and a half,

00:12:09   and supposedly it's almost done.

00:12:10   - You know, most people just live with that, you know.

00:12:12   - No, well, plus it wasn't my fault.

00:12:14   - I saw a picture of it.

00:12:15   It's very small.

00:12:17   You're gonna pay for the entire repair yourself,

00:12:19   'cause there's no way that's--

00:12:20   - No, I did not.

00:12:21   - You don't have any deductible?

00:12:22   - I do have a deductible, but this individual bumped me,

00:12:25   and so, in order to, it was a very young person,

00:12:29   and so, I think their parents and they concluded that--

00:12:33   - Oh, they just gave you some money.

00:12:35   - Yeah, in order to alleviate dinging their insurance,

00:12:38   which is also selfishly good for me,

00:12:40   because I don't want this car to be forever tainted

00:12:41   on like, you know, Carfax or something like that.

00:12:43   But anyways.

00:12:44   - I don't think that kind of incident goes to Carfax.

00:12:47   - Like, seriously, people,

00:12:48   Marco should put a picture in the show art.

00:12:50   We're talking about a tiny nick to the paint

00:12:53   the size of a dime.

00:12:55   - That's the real record.

00:12:56   - A ring the size of a dime, not even a complete ring.

00:12:58   - Yep, that's pretty accurate.

00:12:59   - On the plastic bumper, that yes,

00:13:00   it went through the paint to the plastic, but that's it.

00:13:02   It's like a ring the size of a dime.

00:13:04   - I'm pretty sure every car I've ever had

00:13:06   has incurred damage like that,

00:13:08   and like, these are the leases that I would turn in,

00:13:10   and they wouldn't even comment on it.

00:13:11   I wouldn't get charged, like, it's that minor.

00:13:14   - Well, $500 later, it will be fixed.

00:13:17   - Yeah, so that's not a $500 ding.

00:13:20   - Hey, man.

00:13:21   - I feel you, 'cause I have the same attitude

00:13:23   towards things and scratches in my car.

00:13:25   Of course I do, right?

00:13:26   But I let them build up.

00:13:29   So I have done bumper repair on my car,

00:13:32   and I let it get pretty bad.

00:13:35   Large, big, scratchy regions where cement chips off the road

00:13:41   and scratched my thing, and bumps from who knows what

00:13:45   in the parking lot, and just all sorts of stuff

00:13:48   that happens to my car when I'm not there,

00:13:50   and I was like, all right.

00:13:50   And my car has black sand, like it's scraping through

00:13:53   and making these horrible white paint

00:13:54   for other people's cars.

00:13:55   Eventually it built up to the point where I could

00:13:58   plunk down an obscene amount of money

00:13:59   to get my plastic bumper repaired.

00:14:02   But if you do it every time, that's expensive.

00:14:06   - That's fair.

00:14:07   But no, it really bothered me, and I wanted to get it fixed.

00:14:11   And since I was bumped in the back,

00:14:13   it's pretty much guaranteed not to be my fault.

00:14:15   And we actually did call a police officer,

00:14:17   which I have a question about that in a second.

00:14:19   We called a police officer just to see what happened.

00:14:21   And the gentleman was very nice, the police officer,

00:14:24   but he basically looked at the car and said,

00:14:26   that's less than, I think he said $1,500 worth of damage.

00:14:29   And so I'm not even gonna write this up.

00:14:31   - Jason being an insurance adjuster,

00:14:34   he knows it's less than $1,500.

00:14:36   If you drove a Ferrari, that would not be less than $1,500.

00:14:39   - That's very fair.

00:14:40   But anyway, but he didn't write it up.

00:14:42   And so he was just like, here, here's a form

00:14:44   for you to write each other's information down and go away.

00:14:47   What I don't understand though is,

00:14:49   why didn't the individual that bumped me

00:14:50   get some sort of citation?

00:14:52   It didn't occur to me until after I had driven away

00:14:54   and it was all over.

00:14:55   Like, yeah, they didn't do a whole bunch of damage,

00:14:57   but they still bumped another car.

00:14:59   Like shouldn't that individual have gotten written

00:15:01   like some sort of ticket?

00:15:03   If you're a law enforcement officer

00:15:05   and have information about this,

00:15:06   I would like, not me specifically, just in general,

00:15:09   I would love to hear why this person wasn't written up

00:15:13   or given a ticket for having hit another car.

00:15:16   - As we know, many things are at the discretion

00:15:18   of law enforcement officers.

00:15:19   - Yeah, I mean, I know.

00:15:21   - I think that's the answer.

00:15:22   - I mean, I think the job of police officers largely is like,

00:15:27   the world is going to try to shove all of their problems

00:15:29   onto your plate.

00:15:31   You as the police officer have to decide like,

00:15:33   what is worth my time and what isn't?

00:15:36   - And what's worth the paperwork.

00:15:37   - Yeah, exactly, and I feel like that's probably why.

00:15:40   They probably get called out for every dumb little thing

00:15:42   and if they can get rid of some stuff,

00:15:46   get it off their plate,

00:15:47   I'm sure they're very happy to do that.

00:15:48   So I'm sure the officer saw what happened here,

00:15:51   saw it was incredibly minor,

00:15:52   and not only was it not worth filing a police report

00:15:56   for the accident, it wasn't even worth citing the person

00:15:59   because it's like, who cares?

00:16:01   - Yeah, it's not a criminal matter.

00:16:02   They weren't reckless driving, they're not drunk,

00:16:04   you know, it's totally a civil matter.

00:16:07   - Oh, that's interesting.

00:16:08   You don't think that there was any law broken?

00:16:09   I mean, they hit another car.

00:16:11   - Is that illegal?

00:16:12   - Yeah, I don't know.

00:16:13   That's why I think your question is an interesting one.

00:16:15   Like, obviously there's fault and there's the insurance

00:16:18   and there's all sorts of, you could sue the person

00:16:20   and have sources of civil cases or whatever,

00:16:22   but the laws about driving are about obeying traffic signs

00:16:26   and not being intoxicated and not driving recklessly

00:16:28   and all that other stuff,

00:16:29   and there's probably some law that you could cite.

00:16:30   - Well, what about following too close?

00:16:32   I mean, there's a rule about not following too close

00:16:34   and this individual broke that rule.

00:16:35   - Weren't you stationary?

00:16:37   Like, maybe, I'm sure somewhere on the books

00:16:40   is a thing that says you shouldn't hit another car.

00:16:43   If the car in front of you doesn't go, you don't go either.

00:16:45   I'm sure that's in there, but I don't understand,

00:16:47   I don't know what like, how,

00:16:50   whatever the lowest level of infraction is,

00:16:53   I would imagine this would have to be it,

00:16:55   and I don't know what that's called.

00:16:56   It's not a misdemeanor, I don't know.

00:16:58   Anyway, that's why I'm actually interested

00:16:59   in the answer to this question

00:17:00   of some police officer wants to write in,

00:17:01   'cause I have no idea what they would be cited for.

00:17:05   Well, I do agree that you,

00:17:06   as I think we discussed in a past show,

00:17:08   the whole thing about driving

00:17:09   is you don't let the cars touch.

00:17:10   - Yeah, that is kinda goal number one.

00:17:12   Did we talk about that here, or was that--

00:17:14   - I think so.

00:17:15   That was a neutral, if I'm not mistaken.

00:17:16   - There you go.

00:17:17   Don't let the cars touch, Casey.

00:17:19   - Well, you know what, I was trying not to,

00:17:21   but apparently some--

00:17:22   - Takes two to touch.

00:17:23   Wow. - Thanks, Dad.

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00:19:13   - Alrighty, let's do a little bit of follow-up.

00:19:19   Marco, you apparently would like to file a report

00:19:21   of your own with regard to the Paperlike 2.

00:19:23   Is that a Kindle?

00:19:24   I don't even know.

00:19:25   - (laughs) Good guess.

00:19:27   No, we talked on this show about a year ago.

00:19:30   I had tried out a screen protector for my iPad

00:19:34   called the Paperlike.

00:19:35   I loved the way that it felt,

00:19:38   because the iPad Pro has the feeling,

00:19:42   especially when you first get the new one

00:19:44   when it's all clean and not covered in finger grease,

00:19:46   it's almost tacky.

00:19:49   You need a smoother surface,

00:19:51   and your fingers almost get caught on it.

00:19:52   It's so bare and such a large surface.

00:19:56   But then, unfortunately, the iPad Pro also has

00:19:58   a fairly weak oleophobic coating,

00:20:00   the thing that rejects finger oils,

00:20:02   because ever since the iPad Pro came out

00:20:04   with pencil support, apparently it's been a thing

00:20:06   that Apple has not been able to figure out

00:20:08   an oleophobic coating that is compatible

00:20:10   with the Apple Pencil that is any good.

00:20:12   And so the result is any iPad since then

00:20:14   is a fingerprint magnet,

00:20:16   way more than the previous ones were.

00:20:17   And so the iPad screen is always just covered

00:20:20   in finger grease.

00:20:21   Anyway, so I was trying a screen protector last year

00:20:24   called the Paperlike that advertises that it feels

00:20:28   like paper, so it's a better texture

00:20:30   for when you're drawing with the pencil and everything.

00:20:32   And I hardly ever actually do that,

00:20:34   but I did like the idea of a matte finish screen protector

00:20:37   because not only did it improve that slippery finger feel

00:20:42   and make it easier to do swipe gestures and everything,

00:20:45   but also it seemed to lessen the fingerprint problem.

00:20:47   The downside was that it kind of blurred

00:20:50   and added rainbow light refraction noise

00:20:54   to the picture quality on the iPad.

00:20:56   So it felt better, and it looked better when it was off

00:20:59   'cause it wasn't covered in greasy fingerprints,

00:21:01   but when it was on, the picture quality was sacrificed

00:21:05   too much, like it was just, it blurred the image too much

00:21:08   and it had this kind of like rainbow refraction noise

00:21:10   around everything.

00:21:11   And so it just, I eventually took it off,

00:21:14   which again immediately made it feel worse again,

00:21:16   and it was immediately covered in fingerprints,

00:21:19   but I did take it off eventually because I just didn't find

00:21:22   the picture quality trade-off acceptable.

00:21:24   The Paperlike 2 has just come out.

00:21:27   I batched it on Kickstarter a while ago,

00:21:28   and the reason I gave it another shot

00:21:30   is that they specifically addressed that picture quality

00:21:33   thing in the Kickstarter campaign materials for it.

00:21:36   They basically said like, they basically created

00:21:39   a nano-coating texture, very similar advertising

00:21:43   to what Apple said they did with the Pro Display XDR's

00:21:47   anti-glare $1,000 option.

00:21:49   - Yeah, I'm sorry to hear that you had to spend

00:21:50   $1,000 on the screen protector.

00:21:52   (laughing)

00:21:53   - Well, it turns out it was only, I think it was only like

00:21:55   25, 30 bucks, something like that.

00:21:57   So it is possible. - That's impossible.

00:21:58   - It is possible to do it more cheaply.

00:22:00   I got it today, I have it installed,

00:22:02   and so far I am pleasantly surprised by it.

00:22:06   Granted, I have not had a lot of time with it yet,

00:22:09   but it is a huge improvement in how much of the screen

00:22:14   quality gets reduced, but there is still some picture

00:22:18   of quality reduction.

00:22:19   There is still a little bit of blurring,

00:22:21   and a little bit of that rainbow noise effect,

00:22:23   but it's significantly lessened than the last generation one,

00:22:27   and it's much less than any other matte screen protector

00:22:30   I've ever used before, which admittedly I haven't used

00:22:33   that many in recent years, 'cause Retina screens

00:22:35   kinda ruin them, but this does look very good.

00:22:38   It does not look as good as the Pro Display XDR's

00:22:41   anti-glare coating, but it also isn't made of glass

00:22:44   and $1,000, so to give them credit,

00:22:47   if you like screen protectors, or if you are interested

00:22:51   in trying one, Paperlike 2 is actually,

00:22:55   it seems to be the real deal, so I'm gonna keep it on

00:22:56   for a while, I don't know if I'm going to stick

00:22:59   with it long term yet, but I'm at least gonna keep it on

00:23:02   for a little while, because I really like the way it feels,

00:23:05   and I really like how it immediately got rid of

00:23:08   all my fingerprints all over my screen, so yeah,

00:23:12   I'll report back in future episodes on whether I still

00:23:13   have it or not, but I'm tentatively optimistic about it,

00:23:17   and the one thing I really wish now,

00:23:19   I would love to have this for the MacBook Pro.

00:23:22   - So who, has Tiff used this, tried it on your iPad?

00:23:26   Or on hers?

00:23:27   - Not yet.

00:23:28   - So I'm wondering what, you know, she does,

00:23:30   I'm assuming a lot more drawing than you do on your iPad.

00:23:32   - Way more.

00:23:33   - I'm wondering how it feels for the supposed

00:23:36   intended purpose feeling like paper.

00:23:37   Like you want it for the fingerprinty stuff,

00:23:39   but I'm interested to see if she likes it

00:23:41   for the drawing parts.

00:23:43   - I also just enjoy the way it feels on my fingers,

00:23:46   like that's, it feels good, and it doesn't have

00:23:49   the screen all fingerprinty, and that's awesome.

00:23:51   - Oh, and also, if you want, you could probably buy

00:23:54   like nine of these and put them on your display XDR

00:23:58   and save yourself a lot of money.

00:24:01   Just try to ignore the seams, and the part

00:24:03   where the rounded corners don't meet, yeah, it'll be fine.

00:24:06   - Totally fine.

00:24:06   - Yeah, yeah, well I'm glad you found something

00:24:10   that you enjoy.

00:24:12   Tell me, Marco, about MacBook Pro pricing.

00:24:15   - What?

00:24:16   That's not Marco's topic, that's mine.

00:24:18   - I was hoping that was Marco's, but you know what?

00:24:20   As I've learned many times, and always deny,

00:24:23   it's always John, you guys, it's always, always John.

00:24:27   - Yeah, so last week when we talked about

00:24:28   the new 16-inch MacBook Pro, we talked about

00:24:31   almost everything about it except one item,

00:24:34   which is the price, and the price is interesting

00:24:37   in that it's not interesting.

00:24:40   So this, the new 16-inch MacBook Pro,

00:24:43   it has a bigger screen, it has much better speakers,

00:24:46   it has a much better microphone,

00:24:47   it has a much better keyboard, it has a bigger battery in it,

00:24:50   it has a better GPU, but it's the same price

00:24:53   as the one it replaces, more or less.

00:24:55   I'm sure there's differences in the models,

00:24:56   but it starts at the same price,

00:24:57   and so they didn't increase the price.

00:24:59   They didn't say, "Yeah, well this is the 16-inch,

00:25:00   "so it's gonna be an extra 50 bucks,

00:25:02   "or an extra 20 bucks, or an extra 100 bucks."

00:25:03   It's more or less the same price, which is nice,

00:25:06   and we didn't mention it, and I thought we should.

00:25:08   - Yeah, exactly, this is one thing that we all got wrong

00:25:11   in the guesses, like everyone thought,

00:25:13   because Apple really has been doing a lot of price raising

00:25:15   in recent years, whenever they change a generation

00:25:17   of a product, price usually goes up,

00:25:19   and in this case, it didn't.

00:25:21   We were shocked, we were so sure

00:25:24   that it would be more expensive than the current ones,

00:25:26   that a common guess in the rumor mill

00:25:29   was that this would actually sit above the 15-inch,

00:25:32   and the 15-inch would stay in the lineup,

00:25:33   for just for price reasons, and that didn't happen here.

00:25:36   They just replaced the 15 with one that's better,

00:25:38   and it's the exact same price,

00:25:40   and additionally, the SSD capacities doubled.

00:25:44   So for the two configurations that are like the stock ones,

00:25:47   like the $2400 and $2700 ones, used to be 256 and 512

00:25:52   on the SSD, and now it's 512 and one terabyte respectively,

00:25:56   so they doubled the SSD sizes on both too,

00:25:59   which is wonderful, because now,

00:26:01   we've returned to the point now where like,

00:26:03   I feel like I can confidently recommend

00:26:05   the base model again.

00:26:06   Like for years, I was saying,

00:26:08   "Hey, well, you should get the base model,

00:26:10   "it's a great buy," except 256 on the SSD is pretty tight,

00:26:14   I wouldn't recommend that.

00:26:16   Now, I do recommend, 'cause 512, I think,

00:26:18   is the minimum anybody should have,

00:26:20   and I usually go for the terabyte on mine these days,

00:26:23   but yeah, 512 is a perfectly fine minimum,

00:26:26   and so the base model is recommendable once again.

00:26:28   So to have this new computer that is substantially better

00:26:32   in some pretty important ways be the same price,

00:26:35   and also give double SSD from where it was before,

00:26:38   I know SSD pricing is really cheap these days,

00:26:40   yes, yes, yes, I know, but the fact that we have this now

00:26:43   is pretty good.

00:26:44   - Yeah, I actually went to the local Apple store today

00:26:47   to check out the new MacBook Pro.

00:26:49   I-- - Do you have one yet?

00:26:51   - We're gonna talk about this later.

00:26:52   We're gonna talk about this later, but I--

00:26:54   - You do, don't you?

00:26:55   - I do want the new MacBook Pro.

00:26:58   Here's the thing, it is a aircraft carrier

00:27:01   compared to what I'm used to,

00:27:02   and remember, I have the 12-inch MacBook.

00:27:05   It's not obnoxiously heavy by comparison.

00:27:09   Now, granted, I didn't have a MacBook next to it

00:27:11   to compare to, but just by picking up the MacBook Pro,

00:27:14   it's not terribly thick, it's not terribly heavy,

00:27:18   but just in surface area alone,

00:27:20   like the footprint of the thing

00:27:21   is just comically, comically large,

00:27:24   and I just don't know if I want something that big,

00:27:27   but I've been starting to have, as we've talked about,

00:27:31   and we will talk about later,

00:27:32   I've been starting to have problems with the iMac again,

00:27:33   and so I'm starting to wonder,

00:27:35   you know, maybe I should just get this 16-inch MacBook Pro

00:27:38   and a LG 5K abomination and just call it a day

00:27:41   and just, you know, stop having a desktop anymore,

00:27:44   and I'm gonna need you two to argue with me

00:27:47   and convince me not to do that here in a little bit,

00:27:49   but one way or another, the keyboard is excellent.

00:27:53   It is very, very good.

00:27:53   It feels very much like the Magic Keyboard.

00:27:56   It feels ever so slightly less mushy to me.

00:27:59   Again, I didn't have a Magic Keyboard

00:28:00   like next to it to compare,

00:28:02   but from what I could remember

00:28:03   of typing on a Magic Keyboard,

00:28:04   it felt slightly less mushy, which I thought was good.

00:28:07   I don't find the Magic Keyboard to be particularly mushy,

00:28:10   but it felt slightly less mushy,

00:28:13   but it is very, very good,

00:28:14   and it felt extremely similar to the Magic Keyboard,

00:28:17   so based on 30 to 60 seconds with it,

00:28:22   two thumbs way, way, way up.

00:28:23   I really like the keyboard,

00:28:24   and it seems like it's exactly what we've always wanted,

00:28:28   which again, I mean, Marco covered last week,

00:28:30   but now you have somebody else saying that.

00:28:31   You know what, Marco's right.

00:28:33   Marco, you did buy one or no?

00:28:34   - Yes, I did.

00:28:35   So I-- - Okay, so what did you buy?

00:28:37   - I went into the store and just bought

00:28:40   the 2799 stock model.

00:28:42   In a perfectly ideal world,

00:28:46   maybe I would have gone 32 gigs and two terabytes

00:28:49   for future expansion,

00:28:50   but I know myself well enough to know a couple of things.

00:28:54   A, I'm impatient.

00:28:55   I wanted my own now.

00:28:56   Now, I still do have Apple's review in it

00:28:58   because I haven't had to send it back yet,

00:28:59   but when you have a review,

00:29:01   I didn't wanna fully move into it.

00:29:04   I didn't wanna have to transfer over

00:29:05   certain activation software licenses and stuff like that.

00:29:09   There's a bunch of stuff that when you get a new laptop,

00:29:11   you kinda move into it fully,

00:29:13   and I didn't wanna do all that to the review loner

00:29:17   knowing that within a matter of weeks,

00:29:19   I would have to send it back

00:29:20   and do the whole thing again.

00:29:22   All right, so I wanted to get my own fairly soon

00:29:24   so I could really complete that move-in process

00:29:26   and only had to do it once,

00:29:28   and I also looked at the 13-inch MacBook Pro

00:29:31   I've been using for the last year and a half.

00:29:33   It only had 16 gigs of RAM and one terabyte,

00:29:36   and that had been fine for me for my laptop needs.

00:29:39   You know, it'd be different if it was my primary computer

00:29:41   and I was doing heavy development work

00:29:42   as my primary computer,

00:29:44   then I might spec it up a little bit more,

00:29:46   but 16 and one terabyte was fine for my needs.

00:29:48   It was perfectly fine for the last year and a half,

00:29:51   so I know that A, that's probably gonna be fine

00:29:54   for the time I have this laptop.

00:29:56   B, I also know myself,

00:29:58   and I know I'm probably only gonna have this laptop

00:30:00   for a year and a half or whatever.

00:30:02   - Ah, that's funny, that's very funny.

00:30:05   If you make it a month and a half, I'll be impressed.

00:30:07   - Yeah, well, and the big test is gonna be

00:30:09   when they do come out with this keyboard in a 13-inch,

00:30:12   then that's gonna be the big test

00:30:15   because I too look at this thing and think,

00:30:18   this is an aircraft carrier.

00:30:20   This is way bigger than what I am accustomed to

00:30:25   because I'm coming off the 13, as I said,

00:30:27   for a year and a half,

00:30:28   so I'm accustomed to a much smaller computer than this.

00:30:32   That being said, I did use a 15-inch for years before that

00:30:35   and liked it, so I might stick with it.

00:30:37   Either way, 16 and one terabyte were fine with me,

00:30:41   and I wanted the 8-core, and that has the 8-core,

00:30:43   so I am very, very happy with just that regular

00:30:46   2799 stock config, and I was able to get it very quickly.

00:30:50   I got it on day one, so I got to move into it fully,

00:30:53   and here I am.

00:30:55   When I eventually wanna sell it to you in a few months,

00:30:58   when the 13-inch comes out, let me know.

00:31:00   - No way, 'cause I'm gonna get a 13.

00:31:02   Honestly, I genuinely think if they had come out

00:31:04   with what presumably would be a 14-inch,

00:31:07   you know, we're saying the same thing,

00:31:08   you know, the 13-inch with the new keyboard,

00:31:10   et cetera, et cetera, I think I would have insta-bought it

00:31:13   that the day it came out, just like you did with this,

00:31:15   or maybe at most I would order a slightly different config,

00:31:18   but if they had a new 13 with the new keyboard,

00:31:23   I would have already bought one, and I'm a little scared.

00:31:27   Was it Jonathan Morrison?

00:31:29   Did I get that name right?

00:31:29   I forget who it was, but somebody did an interview

00:31:31   with Phil Schiller on that day and asked basically,

00:31:36   hey, so, you know, presumably the 14's coming out soon,

00:31:38   right, and I forget exactly how it was answered,

00:31:41   but Phil kinda pumped the brakes on that

00:31:43   more than I would have expected, so I'm a little nervous

00:31:47   that that's gonna be like many, many months in the future,

00:31:50   but we'll see what happens.

00:31:52   - Yeah, that's always a possibility,

00:31:53   but I think his statement was, I mean, he can't,

00:31:57   he's not going to say that they're coming.

00:31:58   He can't say that they're coming,

00:32:00   and the harder you press on that question,

00:32:02   the more forcefully he has to say,

00:32:04   not, he has to not say that they're coming.

00:32:06   He has to say, we sell the butterfly one

00:32:08   and this one right now.

00:32:10   We are continuing to sell the butterfly one

00:32:12   because that's the truth, and if you keep pressing,

00:32:14   he keeps having to say that over and over again,

00:32:16   and it makes you start thinking, oh my God,

00:32:17   they're never gonna replace it, but they will.

00:32:19   It's just a matter of time.

00:32:20   Like, it may be way too long, and we may be angry

00:32:23   in two years screaming that the MacBook Air

00:32:25   still doesn't have its keyboard, but he can't,

00:32:28   he literally can't say anything differently now,

00:32:30   so I saw that too, and it didn't make me feel any better

00:32:33   or any worse about the prospects.

00:32:34   Just, people wanna be reassured, and that reassurance

00:32:36   is not coming from a company that is currently

00:32:38   selling butterfly keyboards.

00:32:40   - I'm starting to lose faith that the 13 inch replacement

00:32:43   will become 14 inches.

00:32:45   The kind of thing that usually leaks pretty far ahead

00:32:48   of time these days, usually through Ming-Chi Kuo,

00:32:50   is when display panel sizes and resolutions change,

00:32:54   and for something that we expect to be launching

00:32:57   in less than a year, and probably less than six months,

00:33:00   the fact that we haven't had a display panel leak

00:33:03   about a 14 inch display panel coming out soon is concerning,

00:33:07   and in fact, I believe Ming-Chi Kuo, or one of the common

00:33:11   rumor mill people has even said recently that it's gonna

00:33:14   be 13.3 still, so I'm guessing it's actually probably

00:33:19   not gonna go to 14, which I hope I'm wrong,

00:33:21   because I would love for it to, (laughs)

00:33:25   but it doesn't seem like that's in the cards yet,

00:33:28   or at least if it is in the cards, they have dramatically

00:33:32   improved their secrecy around display panel leaks,

00:33:34   which previously were leaking all the time very reliably.

00:33:38   - Yeah, I haven't seen any rumors of a 14.

00:33:40   Like, the only reason we're talking about a 14

00:33:42   is because it would be cool and it's what we all want,

00:33:44   but like, what I've never, besides wishful thinking

00:33:46   on our part, and the fact that it seems like a cool idea,

00:33:48   I haven't seen anything about it, so that's,

00:33:50   we're still treating it as a thing that Apple should do,

00:33:53   but you know, I don't know what the lead times are

00:33:55   on panels, maybe there's, if the thing comes out

00:33:56   in eight months, maybe there's still time for a panel leak,

00:33:58   but who knows, but yeah, it's firmly in the category

00:34:02   of cool thing that we think Apple should do,

00:34:04   and not the thing that we think Apple is going to do,

00:34:06   necessarily, at this point.

00:34:07   - Yeah, and to be fair, like, I'm not bent on it

00:34:10   being a 14 inch, like, if they came out with the exact

00:34:13   same panel, like you're saying, Marco, but you know,

00:34:15   the new keyboard and presumably slightly better internals,

00:34:17   et cetera, I would still insta-buy that, too,

00:34:19   like, I'm not hanging my hat on an additional inch

00:34:23   of display, I'm hanging it on the new keyboard,

00:34:27   because as it turns out, as I was driving,

00:34:29   or well, Aaron was driving me to Apple,

00:34:31   because I have no car, I was typing on the,

00:34:35   I was trying to do some work on my adorable,

00:34:37   and the H key was sticking, and it was one other key

00:34:40   that was sticking, and I'm just thinking to myself,

00:34:42   it's probably for the best that I don't have

00:34:44   my business credit card on me, because I might have

00:34:45   pulled a Marco right then and there, which is--

00:34:48   - I never have problems with the butterfly keyboard.

00:34:50   - Well, I mean, I'm sure I can take compressed air to it,

00:34:52   I didn't have compressed air handy in the passenger compartment.

00:34:54   - He just held his notebook out the window

00:34:56   while they were driving.

00:34:57   - Yeah, right.

00:34:58   - At exactly a 70 degree angle or whatever.

00:34:59   - At a 75 degree angle, yeah.

00:35:00   (laughing)

00:35:03   - Now, I have to ask you, though, Marco,

00:35:05   these are two interrelated questions.

00:35:07   I was going to ask, do you think this will be the computer

00:35:11   for all trips to the beach, only weekend trips to the beach?

00:35:16   But given that you didn't spec up the RAM to 32 gigs,

00:35:21   I'm guessing that you will use this for brief trips,

00:35:24   but then still use your ridiculous carrying case

00:35:26   for your summer move?

00:35:28   - That is my plan, is like, when I'm out there

00:35:29   for the whole summer, still bringing my desktop,

00:35:32   just because I want a desktop.

00:35:33   I want the giant monitor, I want all the power,

00:35:37   I want no fan noise, I want 100% reliability.

00:35:40   For me, I love having a desktop out there

00:35:42   for that large span, but this will make it so that

00:35:45   I am much happier and more productive

00:35:48   when I'm not going somewhere for two months.

00:35:51   (laughing)

00:35:52   When I'm just going for a weekend or for a week,

00:35:55   or when I'm going other places.

00:35:57   You know, I do, in other parts of the year,

00:35:58   I do go to other places sometimes.

00:36:00   Decreasingly so, maybe, but I still do go.

00:36:04   (laughing)

00:36:05   For WVDC, there's all sorts of times when I travel

00:36:08   where I need to or want to get work done

00:36:10   that I can't bring my iMac Pro on trips like that,

00:36:14   and this will be wonderful for all of those other trips,

00:36:18   even if I don't use it full time for my big summer move.

00:36:22   - That's fair.

00:36:23   I don't know, I just keep wrestling with,

00:36:26   should I just ditch the iMac entirely

00:36:28   and just get one of these and a monitor,

00:36:29   but we'll see, we'll talk about that in a minute.

00:36:31   Moving on, before we do that,

00:36:33   let's talk about keycap replacement,

00:36:34   and apparently there's news about this.

00:36:39   Peter Wells tweeted at the two of you guys

00:36:42   and said that, he asked about repairability,

00:36:45   and Phil said that if a key gets stuck,

00:36:47   you can pop it off and replace it.

00:36:49   What a novel idea!

00:36:50   - Serviceability, wow!

00:36:52   - And there's a demo video from iFixit demonstrating that.

00:36:56   It basically was like their tear down of the thing

00:36:57   and looking at the keyboard and talking about it,

00:36:58   but they took it apart,

00:37:00   they looked at the mechanism inside it,

00:37:02   and they were comparing it to the Magic Keyboard

00:37:04   and looking at these different pieces,

00:37:05   and lo and behold, not only can you pop off a keycap

00:37:08   and put it back on, what they did was they popped

00:37:10   the keycap off of the Magic Keyboard

00:37:12   and popped it right onto the 16-inch MacBook Pro.

00:37:14   Fits just fine.

00:37:15   Now, the keycaps on the Magic Keyboard

00:37:16   are a little bit taller, like they're thicker, right?

00:37:19   So I probably wouldn't replace all the keycaps

00:37:20   and then close the lid,

00:37:21   'cause I think they would probably hit into the screen

00:37:23   or whatever, but it just goes to show exactly

00:37:25   how close those mechanisms are to each other,

00:37:27   despite them being different 'cause it's not at an angle

00:37:29   and them having whatever these stabilizing pins,

00:37:31   blah, blah, blah, the fact is,

00:37:32   they popped off like the command key

00:37:34   off of the 16-inch MacBook Pro

00:37:36   and put on the one from the Magic Keyboard.

00:37:38   So there you go, it is as close to the Magic Keyboard

00:37:41   as it can be without being the Magic Keyboard,

00:37:45   and you can indeed open up in a single key

00:37:48   and put it back on.

00:37:48   Now, all that said, as someone, like I said,

00:37:50   who has popped the keycaps off,

00:37:52   I just switched Apple Keyboard and put one back on,

00:37:54   you can screw this up, rest assured.

00:37:56   There are still delicate parts in there.

00:37:58   If you have experience and know how to do it,

00:38:02   you'll be successful, but if you're just like,

00:38:04   I can do this, let me just rip this thing off,

00:38:06   they're very small, tiny pieces of plastic,

00:38:09   and if you bend or break one of those little tiny pieces

00:38:11   of plastic, you need a new tiny piece of plastic,

00:38:13   which is still a possibility for repair,

00:38:15   and that's great and everything,

00:38:16   but don't be too cavalier about ripping your thing apart.

00:38:20   The good thing is that an Apple repair person,

00:38:22   who presumably has vast experience taking off keycaps

00:38:24   and putting them back on, can do this for you,

00:38:26   so yay for repairability.

00:38:28   - John, take me on a trip down memory lane

00:38:30   with regard to mics and getting better over time.

00:38:34   - This is just a thought I had, you know,

00:38:36   thinking about our last discussion

00:38:38   about the improved microphones and speakers

00:38:40   and stuff like that on the MacBook Pros

00:38:42   and how cool it was and how it wasn't really top of mind

00:38:44   'cause we were all focused on the keyboard

00:38:45   and everything else, but it's a nice surprise.

00:38:48   And I know I've talked about this before on ATP,

00:38:50   but with the show running this long,

00:38:51   I don't feel too bad repeating myself

00:38:53   because two of you have probably forgotten about it

00:38:55   by now too, but I can't remember if I did talk about it,

00:38:58   but I, as an old person, I like to sort of wax nostalgic

00:39:01   about a particular period in the history of the Mac,

00:39:03   like right in the beginning when the Mac first came out,

00:39:06   there was this brief period of time,

00:39:08   well, actually, there was a longer period of time

00:39:09   that you're both familiar with of the PC industry,

00:39:11   but for the Mac specifically,

00:39:12   there was this brief period of time

00:39:14   where the Mac was brand new.

00:39:15   In the beginning, there was one computer,

00:39:16   it was called Macintosh spelled out completely,

00:39:19   and that was it.

00:39:20   There was no qualifiers on that.

00:39:21   There was no designation because what did you need?

00:39:23   It was literally the only one, Macintosh, right?

00:39:26   And then new ones came out, you know, the 512 and the Plus

00:39:28   and the SE and all that stuff, right?

00:39:31   During that initial run of like a new machine would come out

00:39:34   and then another one and then another one,

00:39:35   for a while there, every new Mac that came out

00:39:39   was better than its predecessor in pretty much every way.

00:39:43   And every aspect of the system would get improved

00:39:45   because we were sort of in that era of computing.

00:39:47   The CPU was faster, there were no GPUs,

00:39:49   you don't have to worry about that.

00:39:50   It had more ports, the floppy drive was bigger,

00:39:52   the floppy drive was faster,

00:39:53   the screen was a little bit sharper,

00:39:54   the speakers were a little bit louder,

00:39:56   the sound chip could do, you know, higher kilohertz

00:39:59   or higher bit depth or whatever.

00:40:01   Everything about it was better.

00:40:02   The keyboard was better, the mouse was better.

00:40:04   It was like, and that continued for like three, four,

00:40:07   or five models depending on when things bifurcated

00:40:09   into the Mac too and the color and everything

00:40:10   and how you count that.

00:40:11   And that just, you know,

00:40:14   because that was a formative time in my life

00:40:15   and I was super into the Mac and everything,

00:40:17   it seemed like that's the way computers are.

00:40:18   Every time a new one comes out,

00:40:19   it's better than all the ones that came before it

00:40:22   'cause why wouldn't it be?

00:40:23   In every aspect that it could be.

00:40:25   Obviously there's some aspects that are the same

00:40:26   or whatever, but there were certainly never any regressions

00:40:28   and in general, if you could touch it

00:40:30   or if it affected your experience with the computer,

00:40:31   it got better.

00:40:32   As we all know now, that has long since not been the case.

00:40:36   New computers come out and they improve

00:40:39   in the few ways that are the most important,

00:40:42   but other parts stay the same for a long time.

00:40:44   And in general, like I was referring to your experience

00:40:47   and our collective experience of the PC industry,

00:40:49   if you were to graph anything having to do

00:40:51   with like the advance of computers in the beginning,

00:40:54   going from like the first personal computers

00:40:56   to maybe like the 2000s or something,

00:40:59   there's this big run up where like every computer

00:41:01   is so much better than the one that came before it,

00:41:03   Moore's Law is in full effect.

00:41:05   You got Weird Al singing parody songs

00:41:07   where the entire premise is the idea that you get a computer

00:41:10   and then before you even take it out of the box,

00:41:12   it's obsolete because some other computer

00:41:14   you can get for the same amount of money

00:41:15   is like twice as fast.

00:41:16   That doesn't happen.

00:41:17   We wait three years now for a computer that's 20% faster.

00:41:19   There's lots of reasons for that.

00:41:20   We're discussing on the show,

00:41:22   but all this is to say is there was a period

00:41:23   where everything seemed like it was improving

00:41:26   and there was an expectation from the consumer

00:41:28   and an excitement from the consumer

00:41:29   that if I get a new computer,

00:41:31   of course the speakers are gonna be better.

00:41:32   Of course the microphones are gonna be better

00:41:34   'cause this is this year's model

00:41:35   and that was last year's model

00:41:36   and this year they have a way to make

00:41:38   insert component here better

00:41:39   and the speakers and the microphone

00:41:41   are things that I interact with so they should be better.

00:41:43   In our modern era, especially on the Mac line,

00:41:46   we accept the idea that, for example,

00:41:49   the webcam as we call it, which is a ridiculous name,

00:41:51   the front facing camera on our Apple laptops

00:41:55   will just go years and years without getting better

00:41:57   and not because it's reached any kind of limit.

00:41:59   Very often the camera is poor quality and low resolution

00:42:02   and has bad dynamic range and the lens is not great

00:42:06   and but every year we're not like,

00:42:09   I can't believe they didn't upgrade the camera this year.

00:42:10   We don't even mention it 'cause it's one of those things

00:42:12   that we consider to be in stasis.

00:42:14   Now you could say that's because it's good enough,

00:42:15   but honestly, it's not good enough.

00:42:17   Like if you look at the front facing camera of the phone,

00:42:20   which itself doesn't change every single time

00:42:22   to be fantastically better, but it does try to keep pace.

00:42:26   The front facing camera on the iPhone

00:42:27   has been improving albeit more slowly.

00:42:29   And so our discussion of the mic and speaker has made me

00:42:33   reflect on how, not how complacent,

00:42:37   but how I've gotten used to the idea

00:42:38   that certain things don't change.

00:42:40   Even when we, you know, we touched on this last week

00:42:42   saying like, oh, now we can get back to lobbying

00:42:45   for a face ID on Macs or whatever.

00:42:47   I would like to see, one of the things I would like to see

00:42:50   now that now we're getting everything we want,

00:42:52   you know, we want even more in the sort of revival

00:42:55   of the Mac is exactly what they just demonstrated

00:42:57   on the 16 inch MacBook Pro.

00:42:58   An improvement to systems that we had basically given up on.

00:43:02   Like Marco says, he wasn't even thinking about

00:43:04   laptop speakers being better.

00:43:05   And the microphone,

00:43:07   who ever thought about that getting better?

00:43:09   And now, you know, it's reawoken me and say, yeah,

00:43:12   why shouldn't the front facing camera on laptops be better

00:43:16   every once in a while?

00:43:18   When's the last time that changed?

00:43:20   I, you know, and you think, oh, you don't use it that much.

00:43:21   I actually use it all the time.

00:43:23   When I'm like teleconferencing with people

00:43:25   who are in different geographic regions of my company,

00:43:28   I'm using video.

00:43:29   And what's, what video?

00:43:30   The camera that's in my computer.

00:43:32   It affects like how I present myself to my coworkers.

00:43:36   And if it can handle the darkness in the room

00:43:38   or it keeps changing, like it's exposure level,

00:43:41   'cause it's getting confused by like bright light

00:43:42   coming through the window or whatever.

00:43:44   And the same thing with the microphone.

00:43:45   I found, I sound echoey and distant and you know,

00:43:47   those are all things that can and should be improved.

00:43:51   So I don't know.

00:43:52   I don't know what my point here is,

00:43:53   except that I am now ready for more changes

00:43:56   like the one that is half in the 16 inch.

00:43:57   So I'm happy that Apple did that

00:43:59   and they should be a little bit scared that they did it

00:44:01   because now I'm just getting more demanding.

00:44:04   - This is one of the things that I'm so,

00:44:07   I'm so happy to be back to this now.

00:44:09   Like for these last few years where we've had the keyboard

00:44:14   being this huge problem for a lot of people

00:44:16   and being this huge thing that we hated,

00:44:19   it was hard to look at anything else about the laptops

00:44:23   and to really have a wishlist

00:44:25   or to really be able to focus on like,

00:44:28   how else could they make technology get better

00:44:30   and how else could they improve these things

00:44:32   that we use every day?

00:44:33   Because there was this huge,

00:44:34   it was like when your house is on fire,

00:44:37   literally if your house is on fire,

00:44:39   it's really hard to look at the bathroom

00:44:41   and be like, I'd like to remodel this.

00:44:42   Like it's like you have to deal with the fire first, right?

00:44:46   And so now, you know, the keyboard fire is being put out.

00:44:50   On the big one, it's already out.

00:44:51   It's gonna be put out on the smaller ones, we hope soon.

00:44:55   So like now that the fire is being put out,

00:44:57   it allows us to then finally revisit anything else about it,

00:45:02   anything else besides like the primary input mechanism

00:45:06   being incredibly controversial

00:45:08   and having a high failure rate, right?

00:45:10   So I am very much looking forward

00:45:13   to a return to that kind of normalcy.

00:45:15   And yeah, there's a bunch of stuff

00:45:17   that I don't think they've advanced enough in recent years.

00:45:20   'Cause you know, who knows what they were doing?

00:45:23   Regardless, you know, their heads weren't on right

00:45:25   for a while and it seems like now they put them back on.

00:45:29   And so I would love things like,

00:45:31   as I mentioned before, cellular.

00:45:34   And I think there might be some movement there.

00:45:36   I mean, we'll get to this.

00:45:37   There was a thing somewhere on a document

00:45:39   that I saw about that.

00:45:39   But like I think it is long past time

00:45:42   to have cellular on laptops.

00:45:44   PC laptops have had it for a decade.

00:45:47   I don't know why Apple has resisted so far.

00:45:49   I've been told that there have been good reasons.

00:45:52   I'm sure there are good reasons,

00:45:53   but that doesn't mean they're insurmountable.

00:45:55   If there is enough of a will,

00:45:56   they can get past things that have good reasons.

00:45:59   Other stuff, like, you know, as John said,

00:46:01   is this the best webcam that we can have, really?

00:46:03   'Cause the webcam on it is still really crappy

00:46:06   compared to-- - Stop calling it webcam.

00:46:08   - Sorry, the FaceTime camera-- - Front-facing camera.

00:46:11   - Yeah, the front-facing camera is still really crappy.

00:46:14   It hasn't advanced at all in a very long time.

00:46:17   The front-facing camera on iPhones is way better

00:46:19   than the one on a $2400 MacBook Pro,

00:46:22   and I'm not sure that's right.

00:46:24   I know there's different depths and everything.

00:46:26   There's different price things, but--

00:46:29   - We just wanna see progress, like--

00:46:30   - Yeah, I still don't think we've solved

00:46:32   the ports and SD card problem, really.

00:46:35   We've kinda kicked the can down the road a little bit,

00:46:38   but the problem is still there.

00:46:39   I still think that the ports that are on the laptop

00:46:42   should be such that most people don't need a single dongle,

00:46:45   and I don't think we've reached that point.

00:46:47   There's all sorts of things that I think we can improve.

00:46:50   I think battery life can always be improved,

00:46:53   and we are just now, I think we are barely

00:46:57   on the right side of that, where most people,

00:47:01   most of the time, will have just barely enough battery life,

00:47:05   but I think we can do better than that,

00:47:07   and there's still too many cases where you have

00:47:09   to be really careful, otherwise you won't have

00:47:11   any battery life, and I still think we need software support

00:47:14   for things like a true low-power mode for Mac OS,

00:47:17   which I blogged about a year or two ago,

00:47:19   but I still think, give us a low-power mode

00:47:22   that can disable turbo boost, that can turn off

00:47:25   spotlight indexing and photo analysis,

00:47:27   and a whole bunch of other power-sucking things on Mac OS,

00:47:31   that if you need to get through a six-hour flight

00:47:34   and actually be doing something like Xcode

00:47:37   or something that's actually taxing the battery,

00:47:39   and you have no power on that flight,

00:47:41   you can put your laptop in low-power mode

00:47:43   and be relatively confident that you'll make it.

00:47:46   There's all sorts of stuff like this,

00:47:47   and for so long, the tech industry has been so focused

00:47:51   on what's next, what else, what's the future of computing,

00:47:55   in the way that they kind of have declared laptop

00:48:00   and desktop-style computing as dead,

00:48:02   but we're all still doing it every single day

00:48:06   for much or all of our work.

00:48:09   So I think it's about time for not only Apple,

00:48:13   but for much of the industry to refocus

00:48:15   on the kind of regular or old-style computer,

00:48:19   and be like, "How can we bring this forward?

00:48:21   "How much can we put into this?"

00:48:23   For a while, we thought this was the past, this was done.

00:48:27   Turns out, tablets and phones and everything

00:48:29   were mostly additive, and all these computers

00:48:32   that we all thought were done aren't done.

00:48:34   We're all still using them.

00:48:35   So let's keep moving them forward.

00:48:37   - I think the PC industry has actually been moving forward

00:48:39   on all of these trends, 'cause the PC industry

00:48:40   is not just one company.

00:48:41   It's like one company fades, another company rises.

00:48:44   There's lots of innovation there.

00:48:46   You see what people--

00:48:47   - I guess it is mostly an Apple problem.

00:48:48   - Yeah, so obviously we're mostly focusing on Apple,

00:48:50   but that's just the nature of a single company

00:48:53   versus an entire rest of the industry,

00:48:55   because if a particular company stops really trying

00:49:00   to sell PC notebooks, someone else will come

00:49:04   and eat their lunch, whereas Apple stops really trying,

00:49:06   because they have such a differentiator with the OS

00:49:08   and the whole platform and all the other things

00:49:09   that we've talked about, there's less competition,

00:49:14   there's less pressure on them to change.

00:49:16   So they can leave the camera on their laptop the same

00:49:20   for five years, six years, how long has it been the same?

00:49:23   And no competitor is going to steal that customer,

00:49:25   because no one else sells Mac laptops.

00:49:28   - It does make me happy, as you mentioned earlier, Marco,

00:49:30   it makes me happy that we are now finding these sorts

00:49:33   of things to grumble about, rather than one

00:49:37   of the two primary input mechanisms for the computer

00:49:40   not working very reliably.

00:49:42   Like this is definitely a bad--

00:49:43   - I had a terrible flash earlier today about thinking

00:49:46   of like, wouldn't it be funny/horrifying

00:49:49   if the next thing was that a Mac laptop came out

00:49:51   and the trackpad was unreliable?

00:49:53   - Yeah, imagine how bad that would be, John.

00:49:56   We're gonna talk about that in a minute.

00:49:57   - No, not the external one, and that's a software problem,

00:50:00   anyway, probably.

00:50:01   - It's like, imagine if an iPad, every iPad that came out

00:50:06   for three and a half years, one minute out of every hour,

00:50:09   it just wouldn't recognize touches.

00:50:11   (laughs)

00:50:12   And they kept releasing iPads for three years,

00:50:14   they kept doing that.

00:50:16   - Didn't the iPhone 4, one of them had like a flex cable

00:50:18   issue where it would have, it was like home button disease

00:50:21   or something where like the cable would disconnect

00:50:23   from like the touch sensor and it would stop accepting

00:50:25   touch input or something.

00:50:27   - iPhone 6, I believe.

00:50:28   - Yeah, whatever it was, that was like a one-time problem,

00:50:30   they fixed it by like fixing the cable or whatever,

00:50:32   but yeah, stuff like that happens occasionally,

00:50:34   but yeah, it's just, hopefully none of them will be

00:50:36   this kind of long nightmare where it's like,

00:50:38   well, the trackpad works most of the time,

00:50:40   occasionally you'll swipe on it and the cursor will move,

00:50:42   but that happens in like one out of every 10,000 swipes,

00:50:44   not a big deal and we'd all just slowly be going mad

00:50:46   over the next three years.

00:50:48   - No, thank you.

00:50:50   Marco, you made mention of somewhere in the document

00:50:52   there was some sort of chatter about cellular laptops,

00:50:54   so guess what, it is right after what we just covered.

00:50:57   So John, tell me about Lakefield System on a Chip

00:51:01   and cellular laptops, please.

00:51:02   - Yeah, there's an article from Anand Tech

00:51:04   talking about some new Intel chips that incorporate

00:51:07   some cellular tech in them and the article talks about

00:51:10   a particular model of some Samsung thing and it says like,

00:51:13   you know, you could always put cellular in x86 notebooks,

00:51:16   but then you gotta put separate chips and take more power

00:51:18   and of course they cost more money or whatever,

00:51:20   so here's something from Intel to make it easier

00:51:23   for you to efficiently and presumably less expensively

00:51:27   put cellular in a laptop and again, PC laptops

00:51:31   said cellular forever, this is just something

00:51:32   making it easier, but it's making me think that regardless

00:51:35   of which direction Apple goes, we keep talking about

00:51:37   their arm transition, if and when that's ever going

00:51:39   to happen and of course if it did, you would presume

00:51:41   that bringing cellular along with that would be really easy

00:51:44   because Apple has a lot of experience making very powerful

00:51:46   system on chips based on the arm architecture

00:51:48   which have cellular capability, even though they also

00:51:50   have separate chips and yada yada yada, but anyway,

00:51:52   even if they stick to Intel, it seems like Intel

00:51:55   has products in the pipe that could help some

00:51:58   of Apple's laptops have cellular capability

00:52:02   with more power savings and less expense than even before,

00:52:05   so the number of excuses for Apple not to have cellular

00:52:08   continues to dwindle.

00:52:09   - Which is good news.

00:52:10   You know, and just to hopefully get in front of all

00:52:13   the people that are going to write us and say,

00:52:14   well why don't you tether?

00:52:16   Having done that in the car today, let me tell you,

00:52:19   it is not fun, I know we cover this a lot,

00:52:20   but people always ask, well why don't you just tether?

00:52:24   - Tethering sucks.

00:52:25   - It's not nearly as convenient, it is way more convenient

00:52:29   to turn the machine on and instantly have a connection

00:52:32   of its own rather than having to wait for it to realize

00:52:35   it doesn't have a connection and then wait for it

00:52:37   to realize you have a phone nearby, and then often

00:52:40   but not always, it will be smart enough to offer you,

00:52:43   in Catalina anyway, offer you that connection on your phone

00:52:46   or even on Mojave, you could go into the WiFi menu

00:52:49   and drop down and grab your phone from the list,

00:52:52   but that's still many more steps.

00:52:54   You're now depleting two different batteries.

00:52:56   It's just not as darn convenient, and I don't understand

00:52:59   why people get such a burr up their butts

00:53:01   about us not liking tethering.

00:53:03   Yes, I do tether a lot on my laptop,

00:53:06   but if I could, I would love to have a cellular laptop.

00:53:10   And so I really don't enjoy people constantly saying,

00:53:15   oh, it's just tether.

00:53:16   Yes, we get it, we don't want to, that's the whole point.

00:53:20   - Well, and just because a solution is good enough for you

00:53:24   doesn't mean that no one could possibly want a better one

00:53:27   for themselves and for their needs and priorities, right?

00:53:31   When people say just tether, they're saying it defensively

00:53:34   because they just tether and it's fine for them,

00:53:37   so why can't it be fine for us?

00:53:39   And again, this is something that a lot of people

00:53:42   never understand, but just because you don't need something

00:53:45   doesn't mean that no one needs it, right?

00:53:48   Or just because your priorities say this is fine

00:53:51   doesn't mean that other people would make the same choice.

00:53:53   And in the case of tethering, yeah, tethering is fine

00:53:56   if it's your only option, which currently for laptops

00:53:59   made by Apple, it is.

00:54:00   But when we went from, we're all old enough,

00:54:05   everyone listening, we're all old enough, the three of us,

00:54:07   to have been around when broadband came out

00:54:11   and more importantly, to have been around

00:54:12   before broadband came out.

00:54:14   And one of the big changes that happened

00:54:17   when you went from dial-up to broadband,

00:54:21   yes, it did get a ton faster,

00:54:23   but it was also always connected.

00:54:26   You were just always online.

00:54:28   Your computer was just always online,

00:54:30   as opposed to having to go to a thing in your menu bar

00:54:34   or whatever and say, "Connect to the internet, please,"

00:54:37   wait a few seconds, and then have it connect.

00:54:39   That's exactly what tethering is.

00:54:41   - Yeah, that's a good way of looking at it, yeah, yeah.

00:54:43   - That's literally exactly what it is.

00:54:45   You are, you're basically doing modern-day dial-up.

00:54:48   You are having to go to your menu and go to the thing

00:54:50   and say, "Dial up with my phone, please,"

00:54:52   like, "Tether with my phone, please,"

00:54:54   and wait a few seconds, and then you're on.

00:54:56   It is totally different to be out there in the world

00:55:00   and to pick up your iPad or your iPhone with cellular

00:55:03   and to just be online.

00:55:05   You're just on, that's it.

00:55:08   You just open it up and it's online.

00:55:11   Simple as that.

00:55:12   Totally different way of operating.

00:55:14   And that is why I want this in a MacBook.

00:55:18   There are so many times where I will take my iPad

00:55:20   out into the world instead of a laptop,

00:55:23   primarily because of cellular,

00:55:25   because it's just easier, it's just always on,

00:55:27   it's just there, right?

00:55:29   I want that for the Mac as well,

00:55:31   and it totally transforms the way you use a portable device,

00:55:35   whether it can have cellular or not.

00:55:37   And yeah, not everybody will pick that option,

00:55:38   not everybody will wanna have the extra plan or whatever.

00:55:40   It's fine, but you know what, a lot of us will.

00:55:42   We know that because the PC world has had these

00:55:45   for a decade, people buy them.

00:55:47   It's like, this is not a hypothetical.

00:55:50   It's been around for a long time, and people buy them.

00:55:54   And any argument you could possibly make

00:55:57   about why the MacBook Pro shouldn't have cellular available.

00:56:00   You can say the exact thing about the iPad.

00:56:02   And the iPad has had cellular on literally every model

00:56:05   they offer since day one, almost 10 years ago.

00:56:07   So clearly, there's some reason why they haven't

00:56:11   wanted to put it on a Mac yet,

00:56:12   but clearly it should be there if they can do it.

00:56:15   And I just hope the time that they can do it is coming,

00:56:18   because the need has not gone away,

00:56:20   the need never will go away, and it's well past time.

00:56:24   (upbeat music)

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00:58:27   Thank you so much to Fracture for giving us lots of gifts

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00:58:33   - Tell me about the Motorola Razr.

00:58:38   So when I was a young lad, I had a Motorola Razr

00:58:43   and I loved that thing.

00:58:45   I thought it was amazing.

00:58:46   And apparently there's a new one now?

00:58:49   - Speaking of cellular, we talked about,

00:58:52   I think last show or a couple of shows,

00:58:54   we were talking about foldable phones,

00:58:55   but they're regular sized phones,

00:58:57   but they fold the other way, like a flip phone,

00:58:59   like the Motorola Razr.

00:59:00   Well, Motorola being the savvy slash desperate business

00:59:04   that it is, has a lot of brand equity in the Razr.

00:59:06   Lots of people have fond memories of their Razrs,

00:59:08   as does Casey, I imagine,

00:59:10   'cause it was a cool, thin flip phone, right?

00:59:12   - It's the only phone Motorola is remembered for.

00:59:15   - Yeah, I mean, there's also the StarTAC and stuff,

00:59:17   but there's a lot of brand equity in this, right?

00:59:20   Unfortunately, the brand equity and everything about it

00:59:22   is wrapped up in the idea that it is a thin phone

00:59:24   that folds in the way that a Razr folds, right?

00:59:27   So they are making a foldable phone

00:59:30   that is very much like the size and shape and proportions

00:59:34   of the original Razr, except that when you open it up,

00:59:36   ta-da, OLED screen, a bendy OLED screen is inside there.

00:59:40   And it's got one camera that is facing you when it's closed

00:59:43   and is facing away from you when it's open.

00:59:44   And it's got a chin, just like the Razr

00:59:45   and the whole nine yards.

00:59:46   There's even a weird nostalgia mode

00:59:48   where it will put on the screen graphics

00:59:50   that look like the old Razr number pad

00:59:53   and stuff above it and everything.

00:59:54   I'm not sure if this is a good phone,

00:59:58   but this is more or less exactly what I was talking about

01:00:01   in terms of making a phone that really does fold to be small

01:00:06   and is fun to flip open and close.

01:00:08   So this is as good an attempt at that

01:00:13   as I can possibly imagine,

01:00:14   because it's got the brand equity,

01:00:15   it's got the good feelings and nostalgia associated with it.

01:00:19   The size and shape and form factor are nice

01:00:21   in that they are very much like the thing that it is aping,

01:00:24   but also are reasonable for a modern phone when it's open.

01:00:28   Like it's not a ridiculous size and shape phone.

01:00:30   It's not really skinny or really broad or whatever.

01:00:34   The chin is a little weird, but this phone intrigues me.

01:00:38   Obviously the folding part is the most difficult part

01:00:40   and you still have the problems of if the screen dies

01:00:42   'cause of the folding.

01:00:43   And if you look at the hinge,

01:00:44   it's very similar to the other one.

01:00:45   So I'm not sure if this is gonna stand up to heavy use

01:00:49   or how delicate it's gonna be or whatever.

01:00:51   And whether the usefulness of being able to make it

01:00:55   that small makes that much of a difference.

01:00:57   The biggest enemy of the Sony is probably the degree

01:01:01   to which our world and society has accommodated phones.

01:01:06   I know on women's clothing,

01:01:08   there continues to be a very terrible lack

01:01:11   of reasonable size pockets.

01:01:14   But in general, I think the trend in clothing for everybody

01:01:17   is for the pockets to either A, start existing

01:01:20   on a woman's clothing if you're lucky,

01:01:21   and B, be big enough to accommodate a smartphone

01:01:26   because we all do have smartphones.

01:01:29   And if we buy a piece of clothing

01:01:30   and find that our smartphones don't fit

01:01:32   in any of the pockets, we will not have good feelings

01:01:35   about that piece of clothing.

01:01:37   So maybe the time of this phone has actually already passed

01:01:41   and we don't need anything to get that small,

01:01:42   but maybe it will appeal to people who still think phones

01:01:45   are too large and awkward in their pockets.

01:01:48   So I thought this was, to me,

01:01:52   this is the most interesting folding phone that I've seen.

01:01:54   Not that I wanna buy one,

01:01:55   but I want other people to buy them and see if they like it.

01:01:58   - I don't think it's actually what anybody wants.

01:02:01   It's a cool nostalgia thing,

01:02:03   but I don't think you're really solving a problem

01:02:07   that people have by having the phone fold

01:02:10   and get really thick.

01:02:11   But the Razer isn't that thick.

01:02:13   That's what I like about it, is that it is,

01:02:14   the whole thing with the Razer is,

01:02:15   look, can you believe how thin this phone is?

01:02:17   And this foldy one is also thinner

01:02:20   than you would expect a folding phone to be.

01:02:22   It's not thin, right?

01:02:23   It's still thick, right?

01:02:24   But-- - I don't know.

01:02:26   Do people really need their phone to get shorter

01:02:29   just in that one dimension but twice as thick?

01:02:32   It doesn't seem like that's the right dimension

01:02:35   to be folding on.

01:02:36   Not to mention, of course,

01:02:37   I don't think for a second this is gonna work.

01:02:39   I don't think for a second this screen

01:02:40   is gonna be durable and the hinge--

01:02:42   - The durability, yeah.

01:02:43   - No, I think we're nowhere near the point

01:02:44   where anybody has solved that.

01:02:46   So the fact, so I don't think for a moment

01:02:48   this is going to last more than three flips

01:02:50   before you have a bubble on your screen or whatever.

01:02:53   But even assuming that it did,

01:02:55   I don't think this is solving a problem

01:02:57   people really have today.

01:02:59   - I mean, I know people do have problems

01:03:01   with phones in pockets, because I do.

01:03:03   I have, there are certain pants that I wear

01:03:05   that the phone fits okay in one pocket,

01:03:08   but if it's in another pocket, I can't sit down

01:03:09   'cause I'm afraid it's gonna bend

01:03:11   or get damaged in some way.

01:03:12   And I have relatively big man pockets.

01:03:17   Women's clothing that has either fake pockets

01:03:19   or ridiculously small pockets,

01:03:20   maybe this is literally the only phone

01:03:22   that will fit in one of those pockets,

01:03:23   because the problem is usually pocket depth,

01:03:25   and also how much it stretches out.

01:03:28   Anyway, I don't know.

01:03:30   Like I said, I don't think this is a super pressing problem

01:03:32   or more people would have been making smaller phones

01:03:34   to begin with, and the trend is the opposite direction.

01:03:36   And it could be that one of the reasons big phones

01:03:40   became so popular is people find a place in their life

01:03:43   for the big phone, whether they put it in their purse

01:03:44   or they put it in their backpack

01:03:47   or have an inside pocket on their coat or something.

01:03:49   But I'm still intrigued by the idea,

01:03:52   because the sort of monoculture of all phones

01:03:56   being basically the same size and shape

01:03:58   and us trying to accommodate them,

01:03:59   I do find it a little awkward,

01:04:00   because there's really no good place for an item that large

01:04:04   in any of the typical pants pockets that people might have,

01:04:09   and so it ends up going in a bag or something like that.

01:04:11   I don't know.

01:04:12   It's a problem I kind of sort of have,

01:04:14   so that's why I'm not entirely willing to dismiss it,

01:04:16   but I think you're right about the durability,

01:04:17   and this is the first attempt at this,

01:04:20   and I'm sure it's gonna be a little wonky.

01:04:22   We'll see.

01:04:23   - Also, I just think the fold state is too thick.

01:04:26   I don't think people are actually going to want that.

01:04:29   - Yeah, maybe.

01:04:30   I was trying to look for what the measurements are.

01:04:32   It doesn't look to me as thick as the Galaxy Fold,

01:04:34   like that's what I'm comparing it to in my mind.

01:04:35   I'm comparing it to other folding phones,

01:04:37   and it also doesn't look so thick

01:04:38   that I think it would stretch out your pocket uncomfortably,

01:04:40   and it's like, well, it fits fine depth-wise,

01:04:42   but it's so thick, and of course I say

01:04:44   this is someone with a giant wallet,

01:04:45   so maybe I'm not the best judge.

01:04:47   (both laughing)

01:04:49   - That wallet is gigantic.

01:04:51   All right, let's finish up, follow up, hopefully,

01:04:54   and let's talk about my Catalina problems.

01:04:56   So if you recall, I got my iMac back a month ago,

01:05:01   and then pretty much immediately put Catalina on it,

01:05:05   after I'd gotten back from Disney World,

01:05:06   which is just briefly after,

01:05:08   and shortly after putting Catalina on it,

01:05:12   I started, and this is an upgrade from Mojave,

01:05:14   I started noticing that my trackpad,

01:05:17   which is my primary pointing device these days,

01:05:19   would occasionally just ignore my input,

01:05:22   and it would ignore clicks,

01:05:24   and eventually those clicks would find their way

01:05:26   to the trackpad, and it would be like a machine gun.

01:05:28   It would (imitates gun firing) and fire all these clicks

01:05:31   all basically at once.

01:05:33   And I asked, are people seeing this,

01:05:34   or is it just me, and am I crazy?

01:05:36   And oh my goodness, apparently I am very not crazy,

01:05:40   or at least not for this reason anyway.

01:05:42   And a lot of people reached out via Twitter and said,

01:05:45   oh yes, not only are they having latency issues

01:05:49   with their Apple mice, but a handful of people

01:05:52   actually said that other brands, especially Logitech,

01:05:55   Bluetooth mice, were having latency problems.

01:05:57   And then one person, Will Bishop on Twitter,

01:06:00   wrote in to say that he has had the machine gun issue

01:06:04   on his MacBook Pro's touchpad, which is deeply alarming.

01:06:09   So I don't know what's going on here.

01:06:12   I still maintain that I feel like it's a software problem

01:06:15   based on no facts and just gut feeling,

01:06:17   but I don't know what to do about this,

01:06:19   and it's really, really bothering me.

01:06:21   And it's bothering me to the point that I really

01:06:23   am starting to feel like this iMac is now cursed,

01:06:25   and I'm thinking about replacing it again.

01:06:29   And so to move out of follow up and perhaps into a new topic,

01:06:33   tell me again why I don't just wanna get

01:06:36   a 16-inch MacBook Pro and just hook up a monitor to it

01:06:40   and just be done, 'cause this way I will always have

01:06:43   my one and only computer with me all the time.

01:06:45   I never have to worry about going back and forth,

01:06:47   although truth be told, I don't typically

01:06:49   have a problem with that.

01:06:49   But still, it'd be nice to have everything

01:06:51   right there with me all the time.

01:06:53   The only real problem I have with this,

01:06:55   and the ace in the hole that'll get you guys

01:06:56   to convince me to stick with an iMac,

01:06:58   is I don't have a good answer for Plex.

01:07:00   I was casting around on Twitter to ask,

01:07:03   oh, can I just get Raspberry Pi and put Plex on that

01:07:06   and have that serve my media to me?

01:07:09   And people said yes, as long as you're direct playing.

01:07:11   That is to say, you don't have to change the format

01:07:14   of anything that it's playing,

01:07:15   because if you have to transcode and change the format

01:07:17   of what's being played on the fly,

01:07:20   the Raspberry Pi will fall into space.

01:07:21   And so I've been looking into some other alternatives,

01:07:24   including the, what is it, the NVIDIA Shield,

01:07:27   something like that?

01:07:28   - Oh yeah, don't do that, no, no, no.

01:07:29   - Well, I'm exploring options.

01:07:32   But in summary, and let me start with Jon,

01:07:35   Jon, why don't I want a laptop again?

01:07:37   'Cause I feel like right now, a 16-inch laptop

01:07:40   with a monitor may not be too bad.

01:07:43   So talk me off the ledge.

01:07:45   - Laptops are terrible.

01:07:46   - That's not sufficient.

01:07:47   I don't have those problems.

01:07:48   - They make all sorts of noise, they get hot.

01:07:51   Just imagine using your computer,

01:07:53   but having constantly here some tiny little fans screaming.

01:07:57   Yes, you can attach a bigger screen,

01:07:58   but then you're constantly plugging and unplugging it,

01:08:00   and then you just end up using the smaller screen,

01:08:01   which is not as good.

01:08:02   If you have to deal with pointing devices,

01:08:05   then you've got these Bluetooth devices

01:08:06   that you constantly have to repair

01:08:09   or make sure are properly connected.

01:08:11   A desktop is the right solution

01:08:13   for a fixture in your house

01:08:14   where you're gonna do things on a big screen

01:08:16   and for things that you want to run all the time, like Plex.

01:08:18   Like a desktop is the right solution.

01:08:19   Now your current desktop may be flaky,

01:08:21   but the solution is not I don't need a desktop anymore.

01:08:24   It's like, say, if your BMW's engine exploded

01:08:27   and you decide to buy a Jeep.

01:08:28   That's what you're thinking of here.

01:08:29   It's not the same thing.

01:08:30   You may be upset with BMW, but it's like,

01:08:33   does that mean what you want instead

01:08:35   is a totally different kind of car

01:08:37   that is nothing like the one you had before

01:08:39   and that will solve all your problems?

01:08:40   That said, I don't think you shouldn't have a laptop.

01:08:43   I just think you should have a laptop

01:08:44   and also have a desktop.

01:08:45   And if your current desktop is flaky or dying,

01:08:48   I also think it's probably still software related.

01:08:50   But anyway, get another better, newer desktop

01:08:54   and let that be your desktop and then also have a laptop

01:08:56   and there will be peace in your kingdom.

01:08:58   - Yeah, and I mean, in a perfect world,

01:09:00   I would just, where money doesn't matter,

01:09:02   I would just buy an iMac Pro

01:09:03   and I would buy the 14-inch that doesn't exist.

01:09:06   - You don't need an iMac Pro.

01:09:07   You just wait for the next regular iMac revision

01:09:10   where they make it better and then just buy that one

01:09:12   and have your new laptop with a good keyboard

01:09:15   and everything will be fine.

01:09:16   - I guess, I mean, I don't know.

01:09:18   I feel like I could just solve everything in one shot.

01:09:22   I could just solve everything right now

01:09:24   and just get the obscenely large 16-inch

01:09:27   and then get a monitor and then all my problems are solved

01:09:30   and so I wanna watch anything on Plex, but.

01:09:33   - You know, you have like this big,

01:09:34   don't you remember what that was like?

01:09:35   You got a desk full of cables, you got a docking station,

01:09:37   it's like a Thunderbolt docking station or a USB one

01:09:40   and sometimes it's flaky and you plug your monitor in.

01:09:42   I'm living that life right now.

01:09:44   I have a 15-inch laptop that I plug into a monitor

01:09:48   and a keyboard and a mouse and it's not great.

01:09:50   Like I would prefer to have a desktop and a laptop

01:09:53   'cause sometimes you need laptops

01:09:54   to carry your computer around, but when I go to my desk,

01:09:56   I hate having to plug the thing back in.

01:09:57   It kernel-panicked twice this week so far,

01:09:59   unplugging it because I had the temerity to unplug it

01:10:01   from my docking station while the lid was closed

01:10:03   and when I open it back up again, the thing is booting.

01:10:06   Sometimes it's booting and sometimes I get to see

01:10:08   the cool multi-language kernel-panic thing.

01:10:10   Like it's not a good experience.

01:10:13   It's not as reliable, your computer aside,

01:10:15   as a desktop where the monitor is always attached

01:10:17   and the keyboard and the mouse don't go anywhere.

01:10:19   They're always right there.

01:10:21   I'm a huge desktop fan and I think there are good things

01:10:25   and it's sad that your desktop is haunted

01:10:27   as we discussed last week,

01:10:28   but I don't recommend that you go all laptop.

01:10:31   I recommend that you get a desktop and a laptop.

01:10:34   - I do wanna say that I wanna hear Marco's two cents

01:10:37   about this, but-- - You will.

01:10:39   - And I know I will, but I don't know.

01:10:42   Like maybe, I think the biggest problem I have is

01:10:44   my current thinking is I'll get an iMac Pro

01:10:48   and I'll get like a 13 or 14-inch MacBook Pro,

01:10:50   but that is thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars.

01:10:54   I'm way more than I want. - Stop getting dime-sized

01:10:56   nicks repaired on your expensive golf.

01:10:58   - I didn't pay for it.

01:10:59   I didn't pay for it.

01:11:00   It's okay.

01:11:01   - You can just take that money.

01:11:02   It's good for, you know,

01:11:05   it's exchangeable for goods and services.

01:11:06   - Yes, yes, yes.

01:11:08   It's too late, but I do take your point.

01:11:10   And I think the ace in the hole,

01:11:12   which I think I'm probably taking Marco's line here,

01:11:14   is this is for my work.

01:11:15   And I don't mean that in the ha-ha funny way.

01:11:17   Like legitimately, this is for my work.

01:11:19   And so if I'm going to spare no expense,

01:11:21   that's a reference, Jon, on anything,

01:11:23   I should probably be sparing no expense

01:11:25   on my computer or computers.

01:11:27   But nevertheless, it just kills me to think of,

01:11:30   you know, my current thinking of a $5,000-plus iMac Pro

01:11:33   and then like a $2,000 to $3,000 MacBook Pro.

01:11:37   - Don't get an iMac Pro.

01:11:38   What makes you think you need an iMac Pro?

01:11:40   You don't.

01:11:40   - And that's where I was going with this is

01:11:43   as much as I want an iMac Pro,

01:11:45   do I really need an iMac Pro?

01:11:47   I probably don't.

01:11:48   And if I don't, then I can save myself some decent money.

01:11:50   I haven't looked into this,

01:11:51   but I would assume I can save some money.

01:11:53   - I would still recommend waiting for the next revision

01:11:55   because the 5K iMac is louder and shoutier

01:11:59   and not as nice inside as the iMac Pro.

01:12:01   So like presumably there's a revision

01:12:03   coming to the plain old iMac eventually.

01:12:04   And that one hopefully will learn many of the lessons

01:12:07   of the iMac Pro, but still not be as expensive.

01:12:09   So you might want to wait for that.

01:12:10   - What if I get a Mac Mini, Jon, is that okay?

01:12:13   - No, 'cause then you're just like,

01:12:14   that would solve your Plex problem,

01:12:15   but you still don't have like the desktop,

01:12:18   the place in your house where you can sit down

01:12:20   or your computer is always already there

01:12:21   and already configured for you to be using it.

01:12:23   And also happens to be on all the time.

01:12:26   - And for the record, I don't want to buy a Mac Mini

01:12:28   for Plex purposes because it's just a tremendous amount

01:12:30   of money for only Plex.

01:12:31   - Yeah, no, don't, don't.

01:12:32   You don't want to know how to use it.

01:12:34   - To be fair, I use Plex all the time.

01:12:37   Like if there was anything I was going to spend money on,

01:12:39   it would be making my Plex life happy.

01:12:41   But hundreds and hundreds of dollars for a Mac Mini

01:12:44   just to run a Plex server seems stupid.

01:12:46   All right, Marco, you've been very patient.

01:12:48   I appreciate it.

01:12:48   So solve all my problems for me by spending my money.

01:12:51   This is your favorite thing in the world to do.

01:12:53   Now is your moment.

01:12:54   Spend all my money, please.

01:12:56   - I'm torn, honestly.

01:12:57   I totally get your dilemma here.

01:13:00   And I was, when you first posed this question,

01:13:03   the answer I was drafting in my head was,

01:13:05   just get the 16, just go all out.

01:13:07   Because you're right, it would solve a bunch of problems.

01:13:10   It would create a few more.

01:13:12   (laughs)

01:13:13   - It would, it would.

01:13:13   - But it would solve some.

01:13:15   I also ran through in my head, just get a Mac Mini.

01:13:20   It doesn't even have to be a modern one.

01:13:21   It can be an old one.

01:13:22   Just get a Mac Mini for your Plex needs

01:13:25   and then that frees up your laptop for everything else.

01:13:27   And I was thinking like, you do often talk about

01:13:31   getting work done while mobile.

01:13:34   You talk about getting work done in the car

01:13:37   when Aaron's driving on a longish trip.

01:13:40   You talk about bringing your laptop to grocery stores

01:13:42   to work, I guess, in the produce section, I don't know.

01:13:45   (laughs)

01:13:46   You talk about going to the library with your laptop.

01:13:48   You talk frequently about taking your laptop out

01:13:52   and actually doing development work on it.

01:13:54   So you're doing significant work on a laptop frequently.

01:13:58   So a decent to good laptop has to be part of your setup.

01:14:03   - Agreed.

01:14:05   - So that's a given.

01:14:06   You have to have a good laptop of some sort.

01:14:10   The way that you talk about working in the car

01:14:14   concerns me for a 15 or 16 inch.

01:14:17   Could you, in the way that you frequently work in the car,

01:14:21   would a 16 inch be able to fit in your lap

01:14:24   and open up fully?

01:14:25   - I think so.

01:14:26   I think I'm also overblowing car work.

01:14:29   It's not that often that that happens.

01:14:30   It just so happens I was in the middle of doing something

01:14:33   when we needed to go somewhere.

01:14:34   So I was like, oh, screw it, I'll just bring my laptop

01:14:35   with me and do it in the car.

01:14:37   I don't think you're overblowing grocery store,

01:14:40   which by the way is in the little cafe area

01:14:42   in the grocery store, but I don't think

01:14:44   you're overblowing grocery stores.

01:14:45   - You're just sitting by the pile of avocados?

01:14:47   - No, no, no, no, I don't live in California.

01:14:50   So you're not overblowing grocery store library work

01:14:54   'cause I would say one to two days a week

01:14:56   pretty consistently and occasionally more,

01:14:59   I will go to a grocery store library or even a Starbucks

01:15:02   or something like that and get work done.

01:15:03   So I 100%, 100% agree with you that a decent

01:15:08   and we're certainly better than what I've got laptop

01:15:12   needs to be part of the mix.

01:15:14   And unfortunately, the one I think I want is a 13 inch

01:15:19   or 14 inch MacBook Pro that has the new keyboard.

01:15:21   I really feel like that will tick the most boxes

01:15:25   in the laptop side of the world.

01:15:27   Now, I also agree with Jon, and I think this is where

01:15:29   you're about to go Marco, that I do actually really like

01:15:33   having an iMac, I really, really do.

01:15:36   It just, it seems like it's almost redundant

01:15:40   if I'm going to be getting a very new

01:15:43   and very fancy MacBook Pro.

01:15:45   But I feel like I can justify it as not entirely redundant

01:15:48   if I'm willing to wait for the 13/14.

01:15:52   I don't know how willing I am to feel it's redundant

01:15:55   if I get a 16 tomorrow.

01:15:57   - And that's the thing.

01:15:59   So, Jon is right, using a laptop as a desktop

01:16:04   has a number of ways in which it sucks.

01:16:06   And I do think that you should at least no longer

01:16:11   have your current desktop.

01:16:13   I think having an iMac is a great thing.

01:16:17   Having your iMac might not be a great thing.

01:16:19   So, that, you might want to revisit that at least.

01:16:27   That being said, your current iMac in a relatively

01:16:32   decommissioned state where you just keep it in the corner

01:16:35   somewhere with the screen off, could do everything

01:16:37   a Mac mini could do, Plex-wise and everything else.

01:16:39   It's probably reliable enough for that, right?

01:16:42   - Yeah, actually, that's such an obvious answer

01:16:44   that I have to be honest, I didn't even consider

01:16:47   that I could just leave this as a server

01:16:50   in a closet or something.

01:16:51   It's a very large, very unwieldy server,

01:16:53   but it could serve that purpose if I really wanted it to.

01:16:58   - Who's gonna buy it after we've been talking about it?

01:17:00   (laughing)

01:17:01   - It's so true.

01:17:02   - You just put a sign on it that says, "Not haunted."

01:17:05   - Yeah, right, that'll be fine.

01:17:06   It'll be no problem.

01:17:07   - So, you do kind of have a Mac mini already

01:17:11   in the sense that you can just use your old iMac

01:17:13   in that role as long as it continues to work well enough

01:17:15   for that, which is probably a pretty long time.

01:17:18   I think what you really have to decide is

01:17:21   how great do you want your laptop to be?

01:17:25   How big do you want your laptop to be?

01:17:27   That's really it.

01:17:28   If you want a really nice, fast, big screen laptop

01:17:33   for the times that you do work on it,

01:17:36   if the 16-inch size works for you,

01:17:38   there's a pretty strong argument

01:17:40   to just get the 16-inch tomorrow and be done with this

01:17:43   and just have it and don't have a desktop

01:17:46   and maybe get the LG monitor at some point in the future

01:17:50   and have that be your desktop setup,

01:17:51   but are you working a lot at your desk?

01:17:53   It sounds like you are.

01:17:55   - I am, yeah.

01:17:56   I mean, I would say, again, three or four days a week,

01:18:00   I'm at my desk, and one to two,

01:18:03   very occasionally three days a week,

01:18:04   I'll be doing work somewhere else.

01:18:07   So, if I were to optimize for anything,

01:18:10   I should optimize for my desk.

01:18:11   - Yeah, so it sounds like really the best combo for you

01:18:14   is probably some kind of iMac and a 13-inch MacBook Pro.

01:18:19   Which is what I think as well.

01:18:21   - Yeah, and the fact that you can't get the one

01:18:23   with the keyboard that's any good

01:18:25   for probably another six months or so,

01:18:28   you're just gonna have to wait, I guess.

01:18:30   Or compromise on that and get the damn 16

01:18:33   and spend a little more than what you want to spend.

01:18:35   Although, honestly, if you spec up a 13,

01:18:37   it isn't that much cheaper.

01:18:39   Honestly, if you spec up a 13,

01:18:42   and you can do this on the current pricing today,

01:18:44   'cause you can be pretty sure

01:18:45   the new one's not gonna be cheaper.

01:18:47   So, you can go and say like,

01:18:49   "Well, except if I want like a one terabyte hard drive,

01:18:52   "that could be cheaper in the future,

01:18:55   "as it is in the 16 now, right?"

01:18:58   'Cause they doubled all the SSDs, like you said.

01:19:01   - Sure, okay, so here, let me see.

01:19:03   So, 2.4 quad core, you're not getting low CPU,

01:19:07   you're getting the good CPU.

01:19:09   You're getting, let's see,

01:19:10   so even if I just leave the CPU the same,

01:19:12   16 gigs of RAM, you come with 256,

01:19:15   you said you get a terabyte?

01:19:17   - I mean, my adorable is a half terabyte, and that's fine.

01:19:21   So, if this wasn't serving as an all the time computer,

01:19:24   then it would probably be okay.

01:19:26   - Okay, so let's assume they double this to 512 as well,

01:19:29   which I don't think is a safe assumption,

01:19:30   but let's assume that.

01:19:31   Then, just to go to 16 gigs of RAM,

01:19:34   you're looking at $2,000 for the 13 inch today.

01:19:37   And that's assuming that you don't want the fast CPU

01:19:40   or the terabyte hard drive, SSD, excuse me.

01:19:43   If you went to the 16 for 400 bucks more,

01:19:46   you would get the bigger screen, the better speakers,

01:19:48   the much bigger battery, 50% more CPU cores,

01:19:52   and you could have it today.

01:19:54   You know, like you could have it right now.

01:19:55   You could have that extra six months of working with it.

01:19:57   So, those all have value.

01:19:59   So, you have to decide, like,

01:20:01   if you're gonna be spending something like $2,000

01:20:04   on a laptop anyway in six months,

01:20:06   would you rather spend $2,400 and have it today

01:20:09   and have it be better in a few ways?

01:20:12   Admittedly bigger and heavier,

01:20:13   but better in some pretty big ways.

01:20:16   As I mentioned, that glorious screen space.

01:20:18   Like, that's a pretty compelling option

01:20:20   to just say screw it and do it now.

01:20:22   Because this is part of your work.

01:20:24   Again, it'd be different if you were on a super budget crunch

01:20:28   and you weren't doing like professional paid computer work.

01:20:31   Like, that would be different.

01:20:33   That isn't your situation.

01:20:34   So, if I were you, well, I did just go and buy one.

01:20:38   (laughing)

01:20:40   Like, I would strongly consider

01:20:43   just getting the damn 16 inch today

01:20:45   because the 14 or 13 that you want doesn't exist today,

01:20:50   won't exist for probably half a year,

01:20:53   and in the meantime you could be using this.

01:20:55   The price difference I don't think is huge.

01:20:58   The portability difference is significant,

01:21:00   but that's up to you whether that matters or not.

01:21:03   - Sure.

01:21:04   - I will say, like, when I was packing up my 13,

01:21:06   when I was like, you know, closing it down,

01:21:07   packing it up for, I sold it to somebody,

01:21:09   I really missed that size.

01:21:14   Being a 16 inch user now for a week.

01:21:17   Man, that is a great size,

01:21:19   and in the future I might go back to it,

01:21:21   but I'm super happy every time I type on the 16,

01:21:25   I'm super happy that today I chose this.

01:21:28   And I will gladly spend $2,700 to use this

01:21:33   for the next six months instead of a butterfly keyboard.

01:21:37   (laughing)

01:21:38   - I also wonder, you know,

01:21:39   a couple things I haven't considered is,

01:21:41   it's not like my adorable will necessarily just, you know,

01:21:44   die in a puff of smoke.

01:21:45   I mean, it will still be around

01:21:46   if I really need the portability that much.

01:21:48   - Use that as your flex server?

01:21:50   (laughing)

01:21:51   - As long as the keys continue to work on it.

01:21:53   Hey, you don't need the keys, it was just your flex server.

01:21:55   - Yeah, that's an interesting point.

01:21:56   I don't think it would be quick enough.

01:21:57   I know you're joking, but--

01:21:58   - It's got a very powerful CPU for transcoding.

01:21:59   - Exactly, exactly.

01:22:01   I mean, I would like to give this one to Erin,

01:22:03   but it's not like she's urgently in need of a new computer.

01:22:05   - She wants a computer with a broken keyboard?

01:22:07   I'm sure she would love that.

01:22:08   - It's better than one that's been underwater four times.

01:22:10   But be that as it may, I don't know,

01:22:12   I also wonder if maybe the right answer is I get the 16

01:22:16   and maybe don't get it as baller as I would have

01:22:19   if it was my only computer.

01:22:21   - Get the base model.

01:22:22   - You know, either get the base model,

01:22:23   I'm really struggling with the idea of 16 gigs of RAM,

01:22:26   but we can argue about that another time.

01:22:28   But either way--

01:22:28   - I've been using it on my laptop

01:22:30   for the last year and a half,

01:22:31   and all time before that until it was eight gigs.

01:22:34   It's been fine.

01:22:35   If you were gonna go all out

01:22:37   and make this your primary computer,

01:22:39   and you're doing all your Swift stuff and all that,

01:22:42   yeah, then maybe I'd go with 32.

01:22:44   But if you're gonna commit to the plan

01:22:46   of having a laptop and a desktop,

01:22:49   don't spec up the laptop too high,

01:22:51   and don't make it too expensive.

01:22:52   I think the base model $2,400,

01:22:55   or the slightly up $2,700 one that I got,

01:22:59   I think are really good buys for what you get.

01:23:01   And if you keep it relatively reasonable,

01:23:04   if you don't spec it up like crazy,

01:23:06   I think that's the way to go.

01:23:07   Because the reality is it sounds like, again,

01:23:10   the right solution for you is probably a laptop and a desktop.

01:23:13   - Yeah, yeah.

01:23:13   - The only question is whether you buy a laptop

01:23:15   that's a bit more than what you need now,

01:23:18   or whether you buy the ideal theoretical one

01:23:20   probably six months from now.

01:23:23   - I also wonder if I could pull a Marco,

01:23:27   which I, oh God, help me,

01:23:28   because I've made so much fun of you for this,

01:23:29   but could I get the 16 now,

01:23:31   and understand I'm gonna take a little bit of a bath on it,

01:23:33   but resell it in six months when the 13 comes out.

01:23:36   - Yeah.

01:23:37   - Because if I treat it nicely, if I keep it well--

01:23:39   - Don't spill too much water in it.

01:23:41   - Don't spill too much water in it.

01:23:43   - By the way, Black Friday's in like a week.

01:23:45   - Mm, that's true.

01:23:47   - Casey, you know this intellectually,

01:23:49   but I think it's my place to remind you of it once again.

01:23:51   (laughing)

01:23:52   So it becomes top of mind.

01:23:54   You are in a situation where you come on this podcast

01:23:56   with the two of us, and you ask us for advice

01:23:58   about what you should buy.

01:23:59   You should be immediately suspect of any advice

01:24:03   that Marco gives that compels you

01:24:04   to buy something immediately.

01:24:05   (laughing)

01:24:07   And you should be suspect of any advice that I give

01:24:09   that tells you to wait.

01:24:10   (laughing)

01:24:11   To buy, because honestly--

01:24:12   - Thanks guys, really helpful.

01:24:14   - What position are we in?

01:24:14   Marco is the guy who's always like,

01:24:16   he's always gonna say buy it immediately.

01:24:17   He always buys it, and I'm waiting 10 years

01:24:19   to buy a computer, so really--

01:24:20   - Literally.

01:24:21   - Like, all of our advice is so massively polluted

01:24:25   by our sort of respective positions

01:24:27   on these strange different strategies,

01:24:29   and yet, it doesn't mean either one of us

01:24:31   is particularly wrong.

01:24:33   So I don't understand how you can even take

01:24:34   any of our advice, because you have to add

01:24:36   so much salt to all of it, it's like,

01:24:38   oh great, Marco's telling me I should buy immediately again.

01:24:40   Oh great, John thinks I should wait.

01:24:42   (laughing)

01:24:44   - You're so right.

01:24:44   So out of curiosity, Marco, you don't know,

01:24:48   but if you were to just stick your thumb in the wind,

01:24:51   how much do you think you could resell

01:24:53   your exact computer for, which you paid roughly $2,800 for?

01:24:57   How much do you think you'd resell that for

01:24:59   in like, around WWDC this upcoming year?

01:25:03   - Maybe 1,800 to 1,500 at the worst.

01:25:08   - All right, so you're saying it would be about $1,000

01:25:12   to lease a laptop for six months.

01:25:15   - Yeah, you generally figure, like, you know,

01:25:16   if you're gonna resell something like that,

01:25:18   and if you're gonna do it through, you know,

01:25:21   relatively reasonable channels,

01:25:22   you're gonna probably lose 30 to 50%, basically.

01:25:27   But you don't, like, if you spec up with certain options,

01:25:32   you get less of that back on resale than, like,

01:25:35   the base price.

01:25:36   Upgrades shrink down way faster in their value.

01:25:40   So that's yet another reason to stick with

01:25:42   one of the lower models and not super spec it up too much.

01:25:44   'Cause like, right now, if you were to, you know,

01:25:46   go boost up to eight terabytes for, I believe it's $2,600,

01:25:50   something like that, which honestly is not a bad price

01:25:53   for that, for what it is, and you were to resell that

01:25:56   in six months, you wouldn't get $2,800 back

01:26:00   for that eight terabytes.

01:26:01   You would get very little of that upgrade increment back.

01:26:06   So again, stick to the lower ones.

01:26:08   This is not, again, this is not a bad idea.

01:26:09   This is not unheard of.

01:26:10   People do this all the time.

01:26:12   It's fine.

01:26:13   Like, you could totally buy a 16 inch now

01:26:17   and sell it in June and have lost maybe, you know,

01:26:22   800 bucks or something, like something in that ballpark.

01:26:25   Which, again, is not a small amount of money,

01:26:27   but you will be getting value out of this

01:26:30   that is directly related to your work.

01:26:32   You don't have to do this.

01:26:33   You can keep working on your adorable

01:26:35   and your broken iMac until the springtime or whatever

01:26:38   and hope that a 13 inch comes out that is what you want,

01:26:41   but that will then only solve your laptop problem.

01:26:44   You will still have a desktop problem.

01:26:45   It's like, only one of these problems

01:26:47   is being delayed here.

01:26:49   Your desktop problem, I don't think you're gonna have

01:26:52   a quick solution on because I don't think anything else

01:26:55   is likely to be released this year,

01:26:57   and they don't tend to update iMacs

01:26:59   on such a short schedule.

01:27:01   They just updated the non-pro ones.

01:27:03   What was that, about four months ago or so,

01:27:05   three or four months ago?

01:27:06   - I think so.

01:27:07   - So you're not on a super soon schedule

01:27:10   for the regular iMac.

01:27:11   The iMac Pro seems to be Intel related.

01:27:14   Who knows when the next Xeons are out for it,

01:27:16   and then who knows how long Apple will take

01:27:18   to update to them, if ever.

01:27:21   Those are two giant questions that I don't think

01:27:23   we have any idea what the answers are yet.

01:27:25   So your desktop question is not gonna be solved

01:27:29   by a new product release in the near future,

01:27:32   in all likelihood.

01:27:33   So I would honestly strongly consider

01:27:37   the previously considered option for the desktop,

01:27:39   which is the refurb iMac Pro,

01:27:42   that is still an Apple's refurb store, for $4250.

01:27:45   Not a bad computer for that price.

01:27:49   If I were to have to buy a new desktop today,

01:27:55   that is still what I would buy.

01:27:57   Even after the Mac Pro comes out,

01:27:59   if I had to make a quick replacement,

01:28:01   I think I would still even buy the iMac Pro

01:28:04   in that scenario.

01:28:06   It's that good, and it's that well suited to my needs.

01:28:09   And I think you would appreciate it too,

01:28:10   because as much as you say, well, I don't need a desktop,

01:28:13   I don't need a super pro iMac Pro desktop,

01:28:16   you do like a good desktop, the iMac Pro is a good desktop,

01:28:20   and you do like your FFmpeg.

01:28:23   You do a whole lot of transcoding,

01:28:25   and a whole lot of Swift UI building and stuff like that.

01:28:29   Stuff that really is hard on the CPUs.

01:28:31   I wouldn't say everyone I know needs an iMac Pro,

01:28:34   or would even benefit from one,

01:28:36   or would even notice the difference

01:28:37   from a regular iMac to an iMac Pro.

01:28:39   You would.

01:28:40   It would also be likely to work for a little while

01:28:42   on your current one, maybe.

01:28:44   So I still think for your desktop solution,

01:28:47   I would still strongly consider an iMac Pro

01:28:51   if you're gonna have a desktop.

01:28:53   For your laptop, I think it's a separate discussion.

01:28:55   I honestly do.

01:28:56   It's up to you whether you wanna buy a 16 now

01:28:58   or wait for the 13 with the good keyboard,

01:29:01   but you need it now, and you won't take too much of a bath

01:29:05   if you decide to buy it now and resell it later.

01:29:08   So, it's up to you.

01:29:09   - See, this is the problem with talking to you,

01:29:12   because now I feel like I'm about to spend $7,000

01:29:14   on two computers.

01:29:15   - Right, and then talk to Johnny and he'll spend nothing.

01:29:17   (laughing)

01:29:20   - Well, I appreciate the advice, guys.

01:29:21   I'm going to make a decision on something soon,

01:29:23   because this is untenable the way it is, but aye.

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01:30:41   - Let's do some Ask ATP,

01:30:46   and let's start with Bastian Enoch who writes,

01:30:49   "Today I learned Amazon Prime Video, or parts of it,

01:30:51   "is built with server-side Swift."

01:30:54   Bastian's question is, "When is the language ready

01:30:56   "for server-side production in our respective opinions?"

01:31:01   I'll start by answering this by quoting someone.

01:31:04   I heard this on a podcast years and years and years ago,

01:31:06   and it seems so obvious in retrospect,

01:31:09   as all great ideas do,

01:31:11   but somebody once said that you never want to be

01:31:13   the biggest client of anything.

01:31:14   You never want to be the biggest installation.

01:31:16   - It was Marco who said that.

01:31:18   - Yes, I know!

01:31:19   - All right.

01:31:19   I can never tell with you.

01:31:21   - This time I knew.

01:31:22   This time I knew.

01:31:23   There are many times I do not.

01:31:24   - Fine, I was just about to yell at you,

01:31:26   but you were just, it's fine, okay.

01:31:27   - No, I was setting it up, John.

01:31:28   You took it from me.

01:31:29   You stole it from me.

01:31:30   - I have no, my faith in you is so shaken.

01:31:33   How long am I gonna let him go through this?

01:31:36   - I should be offended, but I don't blame you at all.

01:31:40   Anyway, so yeah, Marco, I don't remember.

01:31:41   I think it was on Build and Analyze that you had said,

01:31:43   "You never want to be the biggest client of anything."

01:31:45   And I think that that was really astute,

01:31:46   and I think that that's true.

01:31:48   So as long as other people who are far, far bigger than you

01:31:51   are using whatever the particular technology or language

01:31:54   or what have you that you're looking at,

01:31:55   then that's not the get out of jail free card, if you will,

01:31:59   but that's a really good litmus test to figure out,

01:32:01   is this really working or not?

01:32:03   And if you hear about, say, I don't know, Twitter using,

01:32:06   I don't know, say, Ruby on Rails, and you hear about it,

01:32:08   oh, I don't know, say, failing constantly,

01:32:10   maybe Ruby on Rails isn't quite ready.

01:32:12   But since I've stolen your answer from you

01:32:14   and parroted it back to you, Marco,

01:32:16   do you have anything else you would like to add?

01:32:18   - It depends on what your needs are.

01:32:22   What are you trying to get out of your server-side language?

01:32:25   Are you using something that you're mainly doing

01:32:28   'cause you love new languages

01:32:29   and you're kind of a language nerd, or you're a Swift nerd,

01:32:32   you want to use server-side Swift

01:32:32   because you just like Swift so much,

01:32:35   and it's more of an experimental thing

01:32:37   or an exploratory thing or a learning new skills?

01:32:40   In that case, do whatever you want.

01:32:41   It doesn't really matter.

01:32:43   If you want something that is, that scales easily,

01:32:48   I won't use the word scalable, really,

01:32:51   because scalable is not really a thing.

01:32:53   It's how easily something scales, basically.

01:32:57   Lots of languages can scale well or poorly,

01:33:00   depending on the choices you make

01:33:02   and the resources you have.

01:33:03   It isn't that certain languages are scalable or not.

01:33:06   It's just that certain languages make that easier or harder.

01:33:10   So there's a question of that,

01:33:13   but for me, with server-side languages,

01:33:16   my server-side code exists as a supporting role

01:33:20   to what I really want to be doing.

01:33:22   What I really want to be doing is writing the app,

01:33:24   and the last thing I want to be doing

01:33:26   is messing around with my server stuff.

01:33:28   I really don't like doing it,

01:33:29   and I really don't like the idea of,

01:33:32   'cause server stuff kind of has its own schedule.

01:33:35   It's kind of its own beast,

01:33:36   and so server stuff can invent a need

01:33:40   for attention at any time. (laughs)

01:33:43   You could be asleep or on vacation

01:33:46   or you could be really busy with something else,

01:33:49   and server stuff can say,

01:33:50   "Hey, hey, I just exploded, fix me."

01:33:52   - Like my iMac.

01:33:53   - And yeah, and so for me,

01:33:55   I want my server stuff to be as low needs,

01:33:58   low maintenance, high reliability as possible,

01:34:02   and for that set of priorities,

01:34:05   which again, may not be your priorities,

01:34:06   but for that set of priorities

01:34:08   where my server stuff is really just

01:34:10   this kind of supporting, low-profile task

01:34:14   that I don't want my server stuff to be exciting,

01:34:17   I'm not looking to learn a bunch of new things

01:34:18   with my server stuff,

01:34:20   I'm not looking for experimentation with my server stuff,

01:34:22   I just want to do the most boring thing possible

01:34:23   so it works and I can stop thinking about it.

01:34:27   For that, I would say server-side Swift is still too young.

01:34:31   It's changed too quickly, it's too young,

01:34:34   and I would not use it yet,

01:34:37   because again, my priorities are not,

01:34:39   I love Swift so much and love new languages so much

01:34:41   that I want to be cutting edge, that's not me.

01:34:43   I want my server code to go away, basically.

01:34:47   I want to write it and forget about it,

01:34:49   and that's mostly what I can do

01:34:51   with the old boring stuff I use.

01:34:53   So again, it depends on your priorities though.

01:34:56   But those are mine.

01:34:58   I would say that again,

01:35:00   not being the biggest user or something,

01:35:02   very solidly good advice still,

01:35:05   because you want to use the stuff

01:35:08   that Facebook and Wikipedia,

01:35:12   you want to use whatever big sites use,

01:35:15   because it's just easier for you.

01:35:17   You have tons of resources available to you

01:35:20   if you have any questions.

01:35:22   You probably won't have anything break,

01:35:23   you probably won't be exceeding the capacity of anything.

01:35:26   You're not going to hit scaling limits in all likelihood

01:35:29   with whatever you're doing if Wikipedia

01:35:32   is using the same thing and they aren't hitting

01:35:33   the scaling limits.

01:35:34   So there's all sorts of benefits like that.

01:35:36   Also, big companies tend to use stuff

01:35:39   that's a little bit old for all these reasons, right?

01:35:42   Or because they themselves are old

01:35:43   and they built their infrastructure

01:35:45   back when these languages were new or whatever.

01:35:48   And that's another huge advantage.

01:35:49   If you're doing something that's old,

01:35:51   it'll be included in repositories

01:35:53   for Linux package managers,

01:35:55   it'll have tons of Stack Overflow answers.

01:35:59   The tools will be mature,

01:36:00   the frameworks won't be changing very often,

01:36:02   the language won't be changing very often.

01:36:04   There's huge advantages to all that.

01:36:06   That if you really are writing server code

01:36:09   to support something else you're doing

01:36:11   and you don't want to be spending 100% of your job

01:36:13   doing the server code, pick the older, boring stuff.

01:36:15   And Swift on the server is not that yet.

01:36:18   - All right, old man, tell us what the real answer is.

01:36:21   - So I see questions like this.

01:36:22   I always think that what they're looking for

01:36:24   is some kind of line that a language has to cross

01:36:26   or a litmus test to say this language is ready

01:36:29   for server production, this is ready,

01:36:32   when is a language ready for server production?

01:36:34   There's not actually one answer to that question,

01:36:37   especially in this day and age of public cloud

01:36:41   scalable infrastructure and microservices

01:36:43   and all the other things that are trends and whatever,

01:36:46   but also are a fact of server-side development life.

01:36:50   In many cases, you could find yourself writing a service

01:36:56   that's a small service that does a particular thing

01:36:59   and that certain languages are better suited

01:37:01   to that particular thing than others.

01:37:03   If the thing that you're doing doesn't need

01:37:07   to be tremendously high traffic, if it does a simple task,

01:37:10   if it can scale simply horizontally,

01:37:12   if your main scaling problem is not the language

01:37:14   but is in fact the data store or whatever,

01:37:17   you may find yourself looking at a weird language,

01:37:20   a language that's not even used on the server too much.

01:37:22   Hopefully you're looking at it

01:37:23   because it has some characteristic

01:37:26   that makes the thing that this particular server

01:37:29   is going to be doing better, faster, easier,

01:37:32   more efficient by some large amount,

01:37:34   not just like, oh, I think it's cooler

01:37:36   and I wanna try it or whatever.

01:37:38   Cases like I'm describing actually do come up.

01:37:41   If you say, well, Facebook uses this so I should use it

01:37:45   or Amazon uses this so I should use it,

01:37:47   you'll probably be fine.

01:37:50   It's not like you'll have a big problem,

01:37:52   but especially if you are a small business or a startup

01:37:55   or a single person or somebody

01:37:58   for whom money makes a difference

01:38:00   and especially if you're running stuff into the public cloud

01:38:02   which you probably are if you're a small person,

01:38:05   using a language that can be 10 times more efficient

01:38:10   in terms of CPU time, memory or whatever

01:38:13   can save you actual money

01:38:14   paying for your AWS bills or whatever.

01:38:17   So if you wanna use Go or Erlang or yes, even Swift

01:38:21   for your real production server

01:38:24   that does this one simple thing

01:38:25   that you have a really good reason to use it for,

01:38:27   it may actually be worth dealing with the immaturity,

01:38:31   the lack of tools, lack of documentation,

01:38:32   so on and so forth.

01:38:34   As long as it is actually feasible.

01:38:36   So I feel like the only line is like,

01:38:39   is it feasible to use this language?

01:38:41   Assuming all those other things I described are correct,

01:38:43   that you actually are picking the right language

01:38:45   for the job, it has real measurable advantages

01:38:47   and it's not just your random personal preference.

01:38:49   Although I would say if you are a single person shop,

01:38:52   your personal preference and skill

01:38:53   may actually be one of the dominant factors

01:38:55   because it's like, well, this is the language

01:38:56   I know the best and so I'm gonna write the best thing

01:38:58   in it or whatever.

01:38:58   I've seen this happen in real world scenarios

01:39:01   and it's like, if the organization is healthy,

01:39:04   it is right to question this.

01:39:06   Why is it that you think you need to use Haskell?

01:39:09   And those answers need to be convincing

01:39:11   but if those answers are convincing,

01:39:13   it's usually not disqualifying if like,

01:39:15   well, nobody actually uses that on the server

01:39:17   and the tooling is terrible.

01:39:18   That may be true but it may still be

01:39:20   the right language for you.

01:39:21   So what Marco said is like the writ large,

01:39:23   like if you're gonna just use this as like

01:39:26   your blanket language or some big thing

01:39:27   in a general scenario, that's fine.

01:39:29   But I have over the past, let's say seven years,

01:39:33   become much more convinced that it actually is

01:39:36   healthy and smart to actually suffer the slings

01:39:39   and arrows of an immature language that quote unquote

01:39:41   isn't ready for production if you have

01:39:44   a specific single purpose for it.

01:39:46   And with like I said, with small services these days,

01:39:48   you may find yourself in that scenario

01:39:49   more often than you think.

01:39:51   - Renee Ferguson writes, "Hey Marco, do you have any way

01:39:53   "to track total listen time for an account in Overcast?

01:39:56   "I just finished listening to ATP's entire back

01:39:58   "catalog, my goodness Renee, that must have been a trip."

01:40:02   - I'm so sorry.

01:40:03   - Yeah, I agree.

01:40:05   - I'm not sorry you're doing it right Renee, good job.

01:40:07   (laughing)

01:40:08   - Anyway, so Renee would like to know,

01:40:11   having finished the entire HV back catalog

01:40:14   and with their previous podcasting habits,

01:40:16   they're curious to know how much of their life

01:40:18   have they spent listening to podcasts?

01:40:21   - I can't tell you.

01:40:22   I can tell you what Overcast saves on your,

01:40:24   like on the database table that saves

01:40:26   like your episode progress, which is by far

01:40:30   my biggest database table.

01:40:32   It saves, on each episode that you've interacted with,

01:40:34   it saves the current timestamp

01:40:37   and whether it's been completed,

01:40:39   but it doesn't save how much time you spent listening to it.

01:40:43   So like if you skip parts of it,

01:40:46   I don't actually save that information anywhere.

01:40:47   I don't know that, like on the database level.

01:40:49   So all I know is I can tell you,

01:40:52   and actually you can see this for yourself.

01:40:53   If you go to the webpage, if you go to the account section,

01:40:56   you can export OPML in this kind of custom

01:41:00   extended format that I implemented,

01:41:02   so you can actually export all your data.

01:41:04   That is all the data I have, that's it.

01:41:06   I can tell you like a list of episodes you completed

01:41:10   or you marked as played in some way with Overcast,

01:41:14   but I can't tell you how much actual time

01:41:16   you spent listening to them.

01:41:18   Regardless, the answer to your question

01:41:20   of how much of your life have you spent listening to ATP

01:41:21   is probably too much.

01:41:23   (laughing)

01:41:24   Fair enough.

01:41:25   - But I appreciate it.

01:41:26   - As do I.

01:41:27   And then Phil Tech, I think is how I'm supposed

01:41:30   to pronounce this right,

01:41:31   is it reasonable to assume that the release

01:41:33   of these new Adobe iOS apps could be used

01:41:36   as the basis for native applications on ARM-based Macs?

01:41:41   Yeah, we're all waiting for,

01:41:42   that's what's gonna happen, isn't it?

01:41:43   I'm gonna buy the 16 and I'm gonna resell it for the 13,

01:41:46   and then six months after that,

01:41:48   they're gonna come out with the ARM-based Macs

01:41:49   and I'm gonna be real upset.

01:41:50   - Join the club.

01:41:51   I'm gonna be in the same boat,

01:41:52   only I'm gonna have a way more expensive computer

01:41:54   without an ARM chip in it.

01:41:55   - That is true.

01:41:56   - But again, that's all the more reason why

01:41:58   it's okay to buy one now that you don't spend

01:42:01   a ton of money on, that you don't spec up like crazy.

01:42:04   Buy the frickin' base model or the one right above it

01:42:07   and then you can still resell it for not that much money.

01:42:09   And again, by the way, Black Friday is coming up in a week

01:42:13   and there's probably gonna be some kind of

01:42:15   get $100 or $200 off kind of deal.

01:42:17   Just do it.

01:42:18   - I can't even tell which one of us

01:42:20   is the devil on your shoulder, Casey.

01:42:22   You have two devils on your shoulders

01:42:23   and they're just in different outfits.

01:42:25   - I was thinking like the angel and the devil

01:42:26   on the shoulder thing.

01:42:27   I also, I couldn't--

01:42:27   - But then which one is the angel?

01:42:29   - Neither of you.

01:42:30   - Yeah, I couldn't make the analogy

01:42:31   'cause I couldn't figure out which one was the picture.

01:42:34   - You're both so mean.

01:42:35   No, I hear you.

01:42:36   Anyway, John, is it reasonable to assume

01:42:39   that these Adobe iOS apps could be used

01:42:41   as the basis for native ARM apps?

01:42:43   - Thanks to the specific wording of this question,

01:42:45   the answer is yes, it is reasonable to assume

01:42:48   they could be used as the basis for native apps.

01:42:50   They absolutely could be and that is reasonable,

01:42:53   but they probably won't be.

01:42:54   So it's not reasonable to predict that they will be.

01:42:58   It is much more predictable that they will take

01:43:01   the existing x86 applications and port them to ARM

01:43:04   just the same way they ported them from 68K

01:43:05   to PowerBC to Intel, yada yada.

01:43:09   - I will say there is probably somewhere,

01:43:12   like some part of the effort for Adobe

01:43:14   to bring their quote real apps to iOS,

01:43:18   some part of that effort had to be removing

01:43:21   any remaining assumptions in the code

01:43:23   about code architecture and instruction sets

01:43:26   and byte ordering and stuff like that.

01:43:27   Now granted, again, you mentioned

01:43:29   the PowerPC transition happened,

01:43:31   so they probably already went through a lot of that,

01:43:34   but they could have still had some of that in there

01:43:36   that was added maybe since the Intel transition

01:43:38   for new types of features or new engine modifications

01:43:41   that were custom optimized just for Intel,

01:43:44   just for x86, whatever.

01:43:45   And so if they have modernized a lot of that code

01:43:48   or gotten rid of those assumptions for the ARM build

01:43:52   of the core code for various things,

01:43:54   that would still help an ARM transition on the Mac as well.

01:43:58   But I don't think we really know enough

01:44:02   about the state of their code before

01:44:03   and whether that kind of thing still had to be done

01:44:05   to really say for sure whether it has any relevance here.

01:44:09   - But we know the UI of the iOS ones is not the full UI,

01:44:12   so as the basis of, I feel like it's taking,

01:44:14   like you're gonna start a project,

01:44:16   you're gonna start from the desktop app, right?

01:44:17   But of course, whatever components that are at the core

01:44:19   that they're messing with or whatever,

01:44:22   although I imagine at this point,

01:44:23   having done so many ports of different architectures,

01:44:26   what they're actually doing when they do the ARM thing

01:44:28   is finding the place for this platform-specific code

01:44:30   and adding an ARM implementation of it.

01:44:32   Like I really hope at this point,

01:44:34   after two architecture transitions,

01:44:35   there isn't code lurking somewhere

01:44:38   in the core of Photoshop engine that rely,

01:44:41   'cause what we rely on,

01:44:42   like someone accidentally re-added something

01:44:44   that relies on PowerPC or relies on Intel,

01:44:46   I really hope that's not happening,

01:44:47   but who knows?

01:44:48   But anyway, as the basis of makes me say,

01:44:51   where are you starting from?

01:44:52   And I think they're gonna start

01:44:53   from the desktop version of those apps,

01:44:54   'cause there's just so,

01:44:55   the desktop version is what's gonna be

01:44:57   on the desktop version of the ARM Macs too, right?

01:44:59   It's gonna be that.

01:45:01   - Thanks for our sponsors this week,

01:45:02   Linode, Fracture, and DoorDash,

01:45:04   and we will see you next week.

01:45:07   (upbeat music)

01:45:09   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

01:45:11   ♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

01:45:14   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:45:16   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:45:17   ♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪

01:45:18   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:45:20   ♪ John didn't do any research ♪

01:45:22   ♪ Marco and Casey wouldn't let him ♪

01:45:25   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:45:26   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:45:27   ♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪

01:45:29   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:45:30   ♪ And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm ♪

01:45:35   ♪ And if you're into Twitter ♪

01:45:38   ♪ You can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S ♪

01:45:44   ♪ So that's Casey List M-A-R-C-O ♪

01:45:47   ♪ A-R-M ♪

01:45:49   ♪ And T-Marco ♪

01:45:50   ♪ Armin ♪

01:45:51   ♪ S-I-R ♪

01:45:53   ♪ A-C ♪

01:45:54   ♪ U-S-A ♪

01:45:55   ♪ Syracuse ♪

01:45:56   ♪ It's accidental ♪

01:45:58   ♪ It's accidental ♪

01:45:59   ♪ They didn't mean to ♪

01:46:02   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:46:03   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:46:04   ♪ Tech ♪

01:46:05   ♪ Work ♪

01:46:06   ♪ Has ♪

01:46:07   ♪ So ♪

01:46:08   ♪ Long ♪

01:46:10   - We're not gonna talk about that terrible

01:46:11   Trump and the Mac Pro Factory thing, are we?

01:46:14   - Not unless you want to.

01:46:16   - I don't want to, and that's all I want.

01:46:19   I want to have said that we addressed this,

01:46:23   but it's gross and I don't wanna think about it.

01:46:25   - All right, well, by saying it's gross,

01:46:26   you've now addressed it, good job.

01:46:27   - Thank you.

01:46:28   - And concur.

01:46:29   - So I'm curious, in the notes, it says,

01:46:33   John is preparing the way.

01:46:36   And I think this is a reference that I actually get

01:46:39   for the first time ever.

01:46:40   - Yeah, I did not, I did not, and you did, potentially.

01:46:43   - I assume this is a reference to the Rectif's

01:46:46   famous refrigerator episode, which for anybody

01:46:48   who has not heard it, it is a masterpiece

01:46:50   and you should hear it.

01:46:50   - It is, it absolutely is.

01:46:52   - As John is preparing for the delivery

01:46:54   of a new refrigerator, he has to prepare the way

01:46:57   in his house of, I guess, getting the old refrigerator

01:47:00   out of the way and preparing the house

01:47:02   to have the fridge enter through it.

01:47:04   So John, it says you are preparing the way.

01:47:08   Am I to assume that you are preparing the way

01:47:11   in your office for the new Mac Pro?

01:47:14   - You are correct, and I'm surprised Casey didn't get that

01:47:17   because we've actually talked about it,

01:47:19   we talked about this in a past episode,

01:47:20   how this was a thing that was going to happen.

01:47:23   It's happening, it is now happening.

01:47:26   It's a little bit of yak shaving involved

01:47:30   in that I'm starting to sort of stage my purchases, right?

01:47:34   You don't wanna wait until last minute,

01:47:35   you don't wanna wait until any day once December starts,

01:47:39   the order form could be up and then the process begins

01:47:42   of me trying to figure out, but who knows?

01:47:43   I didn't wanna like have the Mac Pro arrive

01:47:45   and not have the way prepared.

01:47:48   I need to, as I said, I need to, you know,

01:47:51   this is the time to reconsider all of the things

01:47:53   that are connected on, above and under my desk

01:47:57   'cause everything must go and the new thing is coming in.

01:47:59   Does anything stay?

01:48:00   Do I keep any component of my old system?

01:48:02   If not, what do I replace it with?

01:48:04   And there's a lot of components besides the computer

01:48:06   and the monitor, you've got the mouse, the keyboard,

01:48:08   all of the power accessories, the little power strip things,

01:48:12   the UPS, the various tables and chairs

01:48:14   and what about the whole desk?

01:48:15   Maybe I need a whole desk.

01:48:17   I joked about, I need to get a new house

01:48:19   from my Ferrari or whatever,

01:48:20   but like this is the time to consider it.

01:48:22   This setup has been here since I moved into this house

01:48:24   like, you know, 18 years ago or whatever.

01:48:27   If I'm gonna reconsider something,

01:48:28   now's the time to reconsider it.

01:48:29   I'm also, by the way, part of this reconsideration,

01:48:32   I don't think I mentioned this on the past show

01:48:34   or maybe a really long time ago,

01:48:36   my Mac Pro is sitting on the floor right now to my left

01:48:39   as you do with a tower computer.

01:48:41   For a long time, my Macs were always on my desk.

01:48:44   Even when I had tower Macs,

01:48:45   I had one of those fairly awful,

01:48:48   what kind of model was it?

01:48:50   Was it a Quadra?

01:48:52   It was one of those Quadras

01:48:52   that wasn't really a Quadra I think,

01:48:54   or maybe it was still a Performa,

01:48:56   that I thought there was a Q in the name.

01:48:57   Anyway, I can't remember,

01:48:58   but it was a tower and it was on my desk

01:49:01   'cause that's where my computers had always been.

01:49:02   Like it used to be the monitor was built into the computer,

01:49:04   so of course it would be in your desk and even, you know.

01:49:06   Anyway, when I got my blue and white G3,

01:49:10   it was on my desk to the left of my monitor.

01:49:12   Apple would display it that way.

01:49:13   When they showed like the advertising stuff,

01:49:15   they would show the blue and white G3

01:49:17   next to the weird monitor that matches it

01:49:19   and they'd be right next to each other.

01:49:20   Like they're both on your desk.

01:49:22   Let's see what else I have on my desk.

01:49:24   I think when I got my power Mac G5,

01:49:27   which looked very much like the cheese grater,

01:49:30   but in different ports and stuff on it,

01:49:31   I tried putting that on my desk.

01:49:33   I was like, no.

01:49:35   It was just too, the power supply was squeaky,

01:49:37   the fans were too noisy and it was just monstrous.

01:49:40   Like it was bigger than the blue and white G3

01:49:43   that it replaced, right?

01:49:44   And since then, my computers have been on the floor.

01:49:47   But the floor is a dangerous place for a computer.

01:49:50   Lots of things happen on the floor.

01:49:52   Children are on the floor, things roll around on the floor,

01:49:55   the chair is on the floor, vacuum cleaners are on the floor.

01:49:59   Lots of things potentially whizzing by near

01:50:02   towards your computer.

01:50:04   My Mac Pro, as I think I've mentioned at least once before,

01:50:09   has a big shiny kind of chip taken out of the sort of

01:50:14   the side case that extends past the front, right?

01:50:16   That little piece right there.

01:50:18   It's shiny because it's like an anodized aluminum,

01:50:20   but it's been dented and sort of like messed up

01:50:23   in such a way that now it's like the shiny aluminum

01:50:26   is shining through.

01:50:27   Pretty sure that was a vacuum cleaner strike.

01:50:31   (laughing)

01:50:33   Or a meteor strike or something.

01:50:34   It's upsetting.

01:50:36   The prospect of my umpteen bazillion dollar,

01:50:40   shiny new Mac Pro with special machined weird

01:50:42   holes that make people grossed out on it,

01:50:46   getting dinged by a vacuum cleaner bothers me.

01:50:48   So part of preparing the way is I was thinking,

01:50:50   where is this new computer gonna go?

01:50:53   Is it gonna go on the floor right where my old computer is?

01:50:56   Maybe if it had wheels, I was thinking the wheels,

01:50:58   I could like wheel it out of the way better

01:51:00   when the vacuum comes along or something.

01:51:03   But like, I don't know.

01:51:05   So I don't think I'm gonna put it on my desk

01:51:07   'cause it's still pretty big.

01:51:08   I was looking at the measurements.

01:51:09   It's not as big as the cheese grater,

01:51:10   but it's still pretty big.

01:51:11   So I probably don't want that on my desk,

01:51:13   although it really does depend on the fan noise.

01:51:15   To the left of my desk, since I moved in here,

01:51:18   has been a tray table.

01:51:21   Tray tables that we got when we were married,

01:51:23   'cause I guess you need tray tables,

01:51:24   and they're already useful.

01:51:26   And it's been there because it was like a little table

01:51:29   that fit, like my desk doesn't extend all the way

01:51:31   from like the bookcase on one side to the wall.

01:51:33   Now there's a little space,

01:51:34   and it's just big enough for the tray table.

01:51:36   And I put it there when we moved in, mostly on a whim.

01:51:39   The UPS is below the tray table.

01:51:42   On top of the tray table is like my headphones

01:51:44   and like one of my camera bags and some spare cables

01:51:47   and various other things are on.

01:51:50   And it's useful.

01:51:51   It's useful to have a little bit extended desk space.

01:51:52   It is lower than my desk, which is also nice

01:51:54   'cause you can kind of pile stuff there,

01:51:56   and the piles don't extend up over the desk area.

01:51:58   What I was thinking is,

01:51:59   well, I gotta get rid of that tray table

01:52:01   'cause I feel like it's not the right tool for that job.

01:52:04   And also I'm looking at new UPSs,

01:52:07   and I don't think any of the new UPSs I want

01:52:09   will fit under the tray table,

01:52:10   so I probably need a new table there.

01:52:11   But once I get a new table,

01:52:13   could I put the tower computer on that table?

01:52:15   And if I put it on that table, could I get a lower table

01:52:18   so the tower isn't like towering over me,

01:52:20   but also isn't on the floor?

01:52:23   So that's what I'm considering.

01:52:24   So as we're sitting here now,

01:52:26   to my left is a new table that's not a tray table.

01:52:29   It's like a piece of furniture

01:52:31   that more or less matches my desk.

01:52:33   It does not fold, right?

01:52:35   With four sturdy legs, it's stable.

01:52:39   It is a viable platform for the new Mac Pro,

01:52:44   according to the measurements on Apple's website.

01:52:46   So I could, and it's a little bit lower than the old one was,

01:52:48   so I could put my Mac Pro there, keeping it out of the way.

01:52:51   More importantly, this one has enough room

01:52:54   for the very large UPS I just bought,

01:52:57   which is much larger than the one that it is replacing.

01:53:00   I bought a UPS that has fans in it,

01:53:03   fearing whether this is gonna be a problem or whatever,

01:53:06   but I bought it saying, look, I'm gonna buy it,

01:53:08   this is preparing the way.

01:53:09   Order it now, buy it, do all the research.

01:53:11   I've done all the research and looked at all the videos

01:53:13   for all the stuff, like the stuff that is in my house now,

01:53:17   I've been researching for like, I don't know, a month,

01:53:20   like at my leisure, right?

01:53:21   Finally got to the ordering point.

01:53:23   So I got the UPS, I set it up, I plugged it in, dead silent,

01:53:27   or my ears are terrible, either way, like I'm happy.

01:53:30   So there you go.

01:53:31   I think usually, don't the fans usually only run

01:53:34   when it's running on battery,

01:53:34   'cause I think they're blowing on the inverter or something?

01:53:36   - Yeah, that's usually the case,

01:53:39   but it's not actually true that they only ever run

01:53:41   when it's on battery, they run when it needs them to run,

01:53:44   like they're temperature sensitive,

01:53:46   and as soon as you go on battery,

01:53:47   yes, of course they kick on,

01:53:48   but it's also possible, depending on the model,

01:53:50   for them to be running when you're not on battery.

01:53:52   If they are running when it's not on battery,

01:53:54   I can't hear them.

01:53:55   It's like the router that you sent me.

01:53:59   That has fans in it that are running all the time,

01:54:00   I literally can't hear them.

01:54:01   So one of the few joys of aging.

01:54:03   I cannot hear these fans.

01:54:04   So that passed my test.

01:54:06   This is a, what is it?

01:54:08   It's a 910 watt maximum UPS,

01:54:12   which is vastly more capable than the one it's replacing.

01:54:18   I tried to do, as I always do, like the watt calculation

01:54:21   for like a worst case scenario,

01:54:23   the Pro Display XDR plus the Mac,

01:54:25   and try to figure out, and then plus my speakers

01:54:28   and whatever the hell else I might have plugged in over here

01:54:31   and how much would that draw?

01:54:33   And I just, it's just like, you know what?

01:54:34   Just buy the biggest one.

01:54:35   So I did.

01:54:36   So I've got that.

01:54:37   Also, all of my various surge protectors and power strips

01:54:42   for things that I don't have on a UPS,

01:54:43   like my speakers and stuff,

01:54:44   where I don't, it doesn't need to be on a UPS.

01:54:47   And in fact, it probably shouldn't be

01:54:48   because those things tend not to behave well

01:54:51   on the simulated sine wave that the crappy UPS has put out,

01:54:54   although mine is a fancy sine wave one, so it's nicer.

01:54:57   Anyway, I need all new power strips.

01:55:02   I need all new little cables that adapt

01:55:04   from the weird position that the UPS power things

01:55:07   are pointing out to have the cables go in the right direction

01:55:10   so I can plug all of the things in.

01:55:12   And then there's stuff back there

01:55:14   that I don't even know about.

01:55:14   I have some cases full of optical media.

01:55:18   Remember that?

01:55:19   I have like folio cases of optical media

01:55:21   when I used to back up on optical media

01:55:23   and I still keep it around down here

01:55:24   because occasionally I need to pull something

01:55:26   from like a really old disc

01:55:27   and I have this big catalog of where they are.

01:55:29   All this stuff is open for reconsideration.

01:55:30   Luckily the chair situation is handled.

01:55:32   We covered that on the show already.

01:55:35   Mouse and keyboard are still an issue

01:55:37   and I'm still researching.

01:55:38   Keyboard, worst case, I just keep using my current one.

01:55:40   Mouse, I really think I do need a new one.

01:55:42   We mentioned that before,

01:55:42   but I just wanted to let everyone know

01:55:44   that this process has begun.

01:55:47   And I don't want to tell you how much money

01:55:49   I've spent already preparing the way,

01:55:51   but I'm also going to say that I'm not going to count it

01:55:54   in the calculation of like how much

01:55:55   did this whole system cost you?

01:55:57   - Here we go.

01:55:57   - The reason I'm not gonna count it is because look,

01:55:59   every 18 years it's okay to reconsider the furniture

01:56:02   in part of your house.

01:56:03   I think that is a reasonable thing to do.

01:56:04   And this same furniture has been here.

01:56:06   I already reconsidered my chair

01:56:08   and I'm not counting that as part of it.

01:56:09   So anything I do in terms of like,

01:56:11   oh, you bought new cable extender thingies.

01:56:14   You bought a new UPS.

01:56:15   Like this is things that had to happen anyway.

01:56:17   I bought a new UPS for my old Mac Pro at least twice.

01:56:20   And I didn't count that towards the price of the computer.

01:56:22   So I'm not counting this towards the final calculation,

01:56:24   but it is also a non-trivial amount of money

01:56:26   that I spent on stuff.

01:56:28   - Oh, John.

01:56:28   That's awesome.

01:56:31   - It is, I'm very excited about this new UPS

01:56:35   'cause for many years--

01:56:37   - Something no one's ever said.

01:56:38   - For many years I was like,

01:56:40   I look at the fancy UPSs and I'd be like,

01:56:43   yeah, but they all have fans and they're so big.

01:56:45   Like, do I want something like that big?

01:56:47   I'm like, I can probably get away with a cheap UPS.

01:56:49   So as I mentioned on past shows,

01:56:51   I have a massively undersized UPS

01:56:53   where if the power goes out, I have to,

01:56:55   as I said, panic shut down.

01:56:56   Like, oh my God, power's out, beep, beep.

01:56:57   'Cause there is no time.

01:56:59   Like this thing can barely keep my Mac Pro running

01:57:02   when it's like not particularly stressed.

01:57:04   My Mac Pro and my monitor are way beyond

01:57:07   the potential power capabilities of this UPS.

01:57:11   And I always wanted a more powerful one,

01:57:12   but they're expensive and they're big

01:57:14   and they had fans and I was afraid of them.

01:57:16   And so I finally overcame my fear as part of the,

01:57:19   like when you buy a car and you somehow find it palatable

01:57:23   to pay an extra $500 for some stupid option

01:57:26   because the whole damn car is so expensive,

01:57:27   like that whole relative price anchoring thing.

01:57:30   That is totally happening with the Mac Pro.

01:57:31   And I'm like, well, if ever there was a time

01:57:34   to consider buying a very expensive UPS,

01:57:36   and honestly it wasn't that expensive.

01:57:38   Like the cheaper ones, it was like,

01:57:41   it wasn't even twice the price of the cheaper ones.

01:57:43   So I figured this is money well spent.

01:57:45   And the sine wave thing,

01:57:47   I did all the research on that and everything.

01:57:48   I was like, I don't really need it.

01:57:49   I'm not running like audio equipment off of it

01:57:51   or a CPAP or whatever.

01:57:52   Like don't really need it, but it doesn't hurt.

01:57:55   And it's kind of cool.

01:57:56   That actually took the most research.

01:57:59   The two things that took the most research were the UPS

01:58:01   and then the little dongly cable things

01:58:05   that you use to like basically redirect an outlet

01:58:08   that's awkwardly placed or whatever.

01:58:10   Like the power strip thingies.

01:58:12   - Oh yeah.

01:58:13   - Like pigtails.

01:58:14   The power strips, power strip is the worst.

01:58:16   That's the one thing that I got.

01:58:17   The power strip just arrived today.

01:58:18   Like just a plain old power strip

01:58:19   that I'm gonna plug like my speakers into

01:58:21   and like other stuff that doesn't need to be on the UPS.

01:58:24   Trying to find a good quality one or whatever.

01:58:25   And I needed ones where the plugs are rotated 90 degrees

01:58:29   to the strip.

01:58:30   And I found one on Amazon.

01:58:31   I order it, take it out of the box.

01:58:32   The plugs are not rotated 90 degrees.

01:58:35   - What?

01:58:36   - They're the other direction.

01:58:38   Right?

01:58:39   If you look at any power strip,

01:58:41   just go to Amazon type power strip.

01:58:43   All of the ports like are vertical.

01:58:44   Like the three prongs, it has two and then one on the bottom

01:58:47   and then two and then one on the bottom

01:58:49   like right down the strip, right?

01:58:50   And I found one where they rotate 90 degrees

01:58:52   and I bought it.

01:58:53   Picture on the site just lies.

01:58:54   It's just wrong.

01:58:55   It's from the same company.

01:58:56   It is the same color.

01:58:57   It is the same size, it is the same shape,

01:58:59   but the ports are just rotated.

01:59:00   And it was cheap.

01:59:01   It was like, you know, it's just a power strip, whatever.

01:59:04   So I was gonna, I'm like, oh, I gotta return this.

01:59:05   But it's like, you know what?

01:59:07   You could always use new power strip.

01:59:08   Like this is the thing we've talked about before.

01:59:09   Surge strips, like they do wear out.

01:59:11   So if you have one in your house

01:59:12   that's been there for 18 years,

01:59:14   you should probably just replace it anyway.

01:59:15   So what I'm gonna do with this one that's wrong

01:59:17   is I'm going to replace it.

01:59:17   But I did try to contact Amazon and say,

01:59:20   just so you know, the graphic on the page

01:59:23   for this item is wrong.

01:59:24   That's not what you're shipping.

01:59:26   Like it's not it at all.

01:59:28   There is a model like that,

01:59:29   but that's not what you're shipping.

01:59:31   So I tried to find the place where you do that.

01:59:33   I just wanted to do it with like web chat.

01:59:35   I didn't want to call anybody.

01:59:36   - Oh, forget it.

01:59:37   - 'Cause what I was, yeah.

01:59:38   So I found a web chat thing and it's this weird,

01:59:41   you know, automated system

01:59:42   where I'm not talking to a human yet.

01:59:44   Not only am I not not talking to a human yet,

01:59:47   I'm not not not licking toads.

01:59:48   I'm not talking to a human yet,

01:59:50   but I can't type anything.

01:59:53   The only choices I have at the bottom of the little window

01:59:56   are bubbles with pre selected text, essentially buttons.

02:00:01   Right?

02:00:02   And so the first one is,

02:00:03   would you like to talk about an order?

02:00:06   Like, you know, about a return.

02:00:09   Like there's a bunch of options.

02:00:10   It's like a phone tree,

02:00:11   but they're presented as text bubbles.

02:00:13   So when you click one,

02:00:14   it goes into the chat window as if you'd said that,

02:00:16   but you didn't, you're just picking buttons.

02:00:17   It is a phone tree in graphical form.

02:00:19   - Oh God.

02:00:21   - So I go through that and I get to the point

02:00:22   where I'm saying it's about an order.

02:00:23   - Even their bots don't want to talk to you.

02:00:25   - Yeah.

02:00:26   It had some good aspects

02:00:27   because when I go through the thing, it's like, yeah,

02:00:29   'cause this is like a new low of like, you know,

02:00:30   just some poor person in a call center

02:00:32   doing 20 chats at once,

02:00:34   like giving you one 800th of their attention, right?

02:00:36   But at least that is a real human.

02:00:38   This is a phone tree, right?

02:00:40   The only good thing about it was like, it's about an order,

02:00:42   but I said, okay, what order?

02:00:44   And it presented me with a graphical list

02:00:46   of my recent orders.

02:00:47   I'm like, this is so much easier than me copying

02:00:49   and pasting the order ID,

02:00:50   which I had already done, of course.

02:00:52   I just clicked on the item.

02:00:53   I clicked on the specific item within the order.

02:00:55   So now they know exactly what I'm talking about.

02:00:57   I don't have to like send them the URL

02:00:59   or anything like that or whatever.

02:01:00   And then I get to the point where it's like,

02:01:01   do you want to return this or get a refund?

02:01:03   And I didn't, I didn't want to return it.

02:01:04   I didn't want to refund.

02:01:05   I just wanted to tell them,

02:01:06   you have the wrong picture for this listing.

02:01:09   And eventually I get to the point that says,

02:01:11   all right, what's your problem?

02:01:12   Type your problem here.

02:01:14   And I type up my thing.

02:01:15   You know, it's like two or three sentences

02:01:16   about what the problem is.

02:01:18   And I send it and it says, okay,

02:01:19   so now do you want to refund or to return it?

02:01:22   And no, I didn't.

02:01:23   So I pick the no option and it's like,

02:01:24   well, this interaction is done, thank you.

02:01:26   - Yeah, see, have you returned stuff to Amazon ever?

02:01:30   - Oh yeah, all the time.

02:01:31   Because I think if you did, you would probably know

02:01:35   that it sounds like it was literally just taking you

02:01:38   through the return flow because it asks you

02:01:40   as like one of the return options is why you're returning it

02:01:43   and it'll give you the option of like

02:01:45   that the website description was inaccurate.

02:01:48   And I think that is the,

02:01:49   that's what you are actually reporting.

02:01:51   - It did give me that option.

02:01:52   I did the bubble that said item was not as described

02:01:55   or whatever, like that's the one I picked.

02:01:57   And then it let me type free form text

02:01:59   to say what the specific problem was.

02:02:01   Then it wants me to say, okay,

02:02:02   now we're gonna give you a refund.

02:02:03   And it says, but it had an option.

02:02:04   It's like, do you want to do a refund or do you not?

02:02:06   And I said, not.

02:02:07   And it said, okay, we've logged this case

02:02:08   and blah, blah, blah, and like all this, you know.

02:02:09   So I think my feedback was quote unquote received

02:02:12   just not by a human.

02:02:13   And that's the not reassuring part.

02:02:14   I would have liked some human interaction

02:02:16   for some human to say, okay, we'll put this in the bucket

02:02:19   where we put in all of the complaints

02:02:20   about item not as described.

02:02:21   I'm assuming that's where it's going anyway.

02:02:24   Anyway, to find what I should have done in the first place

02:02:25   is what I usually do is I bought one of these strips

02:02:28   for like my wife's iMac when we got it.

02:02:30   I was replacing her search strip thing there.

02:02:32   It does have 90 degree plugs and I just,

02:02:34   I found that exact model in her past orders.

02:02:36   And I don't know if that doesn't have it anymore

02:02:37   but I bought it from a different place by the model number.

02:02:40   And so, you know, it was cheap and I got it.

02:02:42   - I will spend a lot of time researching a lot of things.

02:02:49   I've never spent this much time and effort on a power strip.

02:02:53   - Yeah, you should see how much time I spent

02:02:54   on the little pig tail-y things.

02:02:56   That was the worst part.

02:02:57   - I mean, yeah, I had like a drawer of those in my garage.

02:03:00   I just--

02:03:00   - Well, so here's the thing, like it's--

02:03:02   - They're wonderful but I mean, they're all the same, right?

02:03:05   - You know what expensive UPSs look like?

02:03:07   You know, like expensive UPSs are differentiated

02:03:09   from the cheap ones?

02:03:11   They're differentiated, it's weird.

02:03:12   They're differentiated by the way like computers used to be.

02:03:14   Like cheaper desktops were like flat on your desk

02:03:17   but the towers were the fancy ones.

02:03:18   So the slightly fancier UPSs are all tower form factors.

02:03:23   And instead of the plugs being on the top or the sides,

02:03:25   they're on the back, like where the ports would be

02:03:28   on a tower computer.

02:03:29   - See, I actually don't like this very much

02:03:32   because the like good UPSs in recent years

02:03:36   seem to have gone from basically like two car batteries

02:03:41   next to each other in like a big rectangular

02:03:44   like Velveeta-shaped log to tall skinny towers.

02:03:49   And the big Velveeta-shaped log was awesome

02:03:52   because you could use it as a footrest onto your desk.

02:03:55   You turn it sideways and it was so frickin' heavy

02:03:58   that you could like, you know, put your feet on it

02:03:59   and push back and lean back without the footrest itself

02:04:03   moving at all.

02:04:04   - I do not endorse this practice.

02:04:05   - I did it for years, it was wonderful.

02:04:07   I had this giant like, you know, enterprise grade APC UPS

02:04:12   that I got on some like, you know, clearance site,

02:04:14   you know, forever.

02:04:15   Like it was like out of date when I got it but it was fine.

02:04:17   It worked fine for years and I had that awesome

02:04:19   just like car battery block under my desk

02:04:21   that I could just use as the footrest for years.

02:04:24   That eventually died and I replaced it with some,

02:04:27   you know, cyber power thing that is a very nice UPS

02:04:29   but is more of like a skinny tower.

02:04:31   And you can't do anything with that except just

02:04:34   leave it there.

02:04:34   Like you can't use that as a footrest at all.

02:04:36   - Yeah, I've never had it under my feet and in general,

02:04:39   one of the criteria for me, for my setups is

02:04:42   no power thing should be in reach of my feet.

02:04:46   Because--

02:04:47   - Probably for the best.

02:04:48   - Absentmindedly kick out plugs, kick switches,

02:04:51   like I just shouldn't even be able to reach them.

02:04:53   So then you don't have to worry about that

02:04:54   because you'd be surprised what your feet do

02:04:55   in their idle and they can mess with things.

02:04:58   But yeah, those skinny towers--

02:04:59   - For the record, all of my power things are

02:05:01   within easy reach of my feet and that has never happened.

02:05:04   - Yeah, you obviously don't have like power strips

02:05:06   with one of those little switches right on top of it

02:05:09   'cause that's, well, or maybe your feet can't reach it.

02:05:11   I keep making short jokes, I'm sorry.

02:05:13   (laughing)

02:05:15   Yeah, I understand the footrest thing too.

02:05:16   It is good to have footrest but I think there's

02:05:18   better dedicated things for feetrests

02:05:20   if that's what you need.

02:05:20   - I have one now, it sucks.

02:05:21   It just scoots around 'cause it's like,

02:05:23   what I have now is basically like a half log cushion.

02:05:26   It's like a semi-circle extruded and it's just like

02:05:29   a cushion that scoots around on the floor

02:05:31   and it has these little rubber dots on it

02:05:33   that are supposed to keep it in place but it doesn't work.

02:05:34   - You need one of those wedge-shaped things,

02:05:36   rubberized wedge shapes that doesn't move.

02:05:39   - It has like the rubberized thing on the bottom

02:05:41   but it's, I mean, I've had it for a number of years now

02:05:43   so I think the rubber's all covered in dust

02:05:45   and now it just slides around.

02:05:46   - Hmm, yeah.

02:05:48   Anyway, those plugs in the back of the little skinny towers,

02:05:50   that's like the worst place to put a plug.

02:05:51   It's not easy to get the ports in the back of a tower.

02:05:53   Why are you hiding them?

02:05:55   Like they should be, the other ones where they were flat

02:05:58   and they had the plugs all over the top,

02:05:59   you could get all of them easily.

02:06:00   So this is the one thing I don't like

02:06:02   about the expensive UBSs but I can solve that

02:06:04   by these little pig-nelly things that some of them

02:06:07   duplicate ports where they will put a little thing

02:06:10   into the plug and on the back of them will be another plug

02:06:12   so you don't lose that plug but then you have

02:06:13   a little thing snaking off of it,

02:06:14   which you have to be careful with because the UBS

02:06:16   can only handle a certain number of things in a certain,

02:06:19   anyway, assuming you manage all that,

02:06:20   it's convenient and then they have other ones

02:06:23   that are at different angles and you need some

02:06:25   to come out of one side, some to cut out of the other.

02:06:27   Like it's a complicated thing and the thing about

02:06:29   these little pig-nelly things is you can find tons of them

02:06:31   and they're super cheap but you wanna get one

02:06:34   that is good and rated for the power you're gonna put

02:06:36   through it and is high quality and tight fitting

02:06:40   and complies with all the actual regulations

02:06:43   that isn't some weird, random, unspecified rip-off thing

02:06:47   from some no-name company, right?

02:06:49   So that's why it requires a lot of research

02:06:51   'cause it's like I'm looking for the most expensive option.

02:06:54   Like I do not wanna buy from a company

02:06:57   that I've never heard of for some random things

02:06:59   that's gonna come out smelling like chemically plastic

02:07:03   and looking flimsy.

02:07:04   That can't be the link between my horrendously expensive

02:07:09   computer and my slightly expensive UPS.

02:07:11   So I did spend a lot of time on that.

02:07:14   And we'll see if I did a good job.

02:07:15   I have, I think, all the pieces I need.

02:07:17   I haven't started tearing out the old one

02:07:18   'cause I don't even have a new computer on order

02:07:21   but the process is underway.

02:07:23   - Are we still under the delusion

02:07:26   that you're not getting the Pro Display?

02:07:28   We don't know yet.

02:07:29   It's a mystery.

02:07:30   We're in a period of uncertainty.

02:07:33   I mean, I'm certain.

02:07:34   - Yeah, same.

02:07:35   - Only you are uncertain.

02:07:37   That much is clear but you are not the person

02:07:40   making the purchase so that certainty does not count for much

02:07:43   and I believe my wife is also not certain at this point.

02:07:46   - Yeah, see, not that much.

02:07:47   - For a variety of reasons, the family, let's say,

02:07:50   is not certain how much money I'll be spending

02:07:53   on this computer.

02:07:54   - Like, part of the reason why I'm pretty certain

02:07:56   I'm not ordering myself a Mac Pro is because of that display

02:08:00   because the only way to do it is to do it right.

02:08:03   The only way to do it is to get the frickin' Pro Display XDR.

02:08:05   - If you're Marco, that is true.

02:08:06   - The full $7,000 configuration with anti-glare

02:08:09   and the stand, that's the way to do it

02:08:11   if you're gonna do it at all.

02:08:12   And I don't wanna do that so I'm literally just gonna

02:08:13   not do it at all.

02:08:14   - Maybe you need two of them for your new laptop.

02:08:16   - Obviously, yeah.

02:08:17   (laughing)

02:08:18   - How could you not?

02:08:19   - How could you not, Casey?

02:08:20   You're gonna be the one buying it.

02:08:22   - Oh, no, I am not getting that $7,000 display, no sir.

02:08:25   - Just think, you could have a really awesome

02:08:27   mediocre desktop by having a laptop plugged into that display

02:08:32   you could have a $7,000 thing that flakily wakes up

02:08:34   in kernel panic when you unplug it

02:08:36   when it's clamshell mode.

02:08:37   (laughing)

02:08:38   - How many MacBook Pros could I buy for the $7,000

02:08:41   I would hypothetically be spending on the display?

02:08:43   (laughing)

02:08:44   - Three?

02:08:46   Do you think $7,000 buys a reliable clamshell experience?

02:08:51   - Oh, no, no, absolutely not.

02:08:53   - I don't think so either.

02:08:54   - This is the ultimate luxury that none of us can afford.

02:08:57   - It's not available at any price.

02:08:58   - It's true because laptops stink.

02:09:00   [beeping]

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