335: Withhold the Fun


00:00:00   Do you want to do a Q&A episode for Friday?

00:00:03   Do we have enough AskATPs?

00:00:05   Do we just expand on some of those?

00:00:06   We have a million.

00:00:07   Well, we have a billion of them.

00:00:09   With respect, not all of them are very good.

00:00:12   We're going to take real-time questions from the chat room.

00:00:14   And just the entire show will be like, no, no, that's

00:00:17   not good a question.

00:00:18   No.

00:00:18   No, I don't like that one.

00:00:19   Anyone like that one?

00:00:20   It would be the worst live show ever.

00:00:22   So he's yelling at the chat room.

00:00:24   Ask good questions.

00:00:25   [MUSIC PLAYING]

00:00:27   Let's start with-- I wanted to call attention

00:00:29   to something that is near and dear to our hearts.

00:00:33   This show, all three of us are also hosts on Relay FM.

00:00:38   And Relay is doing a fifth anniversary extravaganza live

00:00:43   show--

00:00:44   I don't know, just event in San Francisco in August.

00:00:49   So coming up, I believe it's Thursday, August 22,

00:00:52   so in a few weeks now.

00:00:54   But tickets have been on sale for a while.

00:00:56   I don't think there's too many left.

00:00:58   So if you wanted to see some of your ATP co-hosts next month,

00:01:05   then you can certainly feel free to grab a ticket to the Relay

00:01:09   Live event.

00:01:10   I think they're $30.

00:01:12   I'm going to stall for time and confirm that, yes, they are $29.

00:01:15   And so if you would like to check that out,

00:01:17   if you happen to be in the San Francisco area

00:01:18   or fancy a pilgrimage to the San Francisco area, like I said,

00:01:21   2/3 of your hosts will be there.

00:01:23   Probably your favorite 2/3.

00:01:25   Am I right?

00:01:25   Yeah, I'm totally right.

00:01:27   Probably not.

00:01:27   Everyone loves John.

00:01:30   All right, moving on.

00:01:31   Somebody tell me about iOS 13 charging optimization.

00:01:34   This is a tidbit that people keep sending us.

00:01:37   And I, at least, have known about it since WWDC,

00:01:40   but we never had occasion to mention it.

00:01:42   And I think it's worth mentioning,

00:01:43   because this is an eternal topic on our show.

00:01:45   We've done, I think, multiple Ask ATP questions

00:01:47   about this thing, which is, am I doing damage to my phone's

00:01:51   battery by plugging it in when I go to sleep

00:01:54   and leaving it charged 100% all night long?

00:01:57   Is it better if I just charge it up at the last minute

00:02:01   before I wake up?

00:02:02   Should I be letting it sit around the 100% charge?

00:02:05   All sorts of things like, am I doing bad things to my battery?

00:02:08   And what we've said in the past is, yeah, it's not great,

00:02:12   but the alternatives are all worse.

00:02:15   You should just use your phone in the natural, reasonable way

00:02:18   that Apple expects you to use it and just deal with the fact

00:02:20   that you're not babying your battery every second of the day,

00:02:23   because the phone exists to serve you,

00:02:24   you don't exist to serve the phone.

00:02:26   So in iOS 13, Apple has added some features that will

00:02:29   help you follow that advice of just use the phone like Apple

00:02:34   expects you to use.

00:02:35   And in iOS 13, assuming all goes well,

00:02:39   it'll actually work better.

00:02:40   And the way they do it is the phone

00:02:42   tries to figure out, based on your schedule,

00:02:47   more or less when you wake up, when your day begins.

00:02:50   And so when you plug it in before you go to bed at night,

00:02:52   it doesn't immediately start charging it to 100%.

00:02:55   It sits there and it doesn't pull in any charge

00:02:59   until it calculates it's going to take me 20 minutes to charge.

00:03:03   It waits until, let's say, 30 or 40 minutes before you wake up.

00:03:07   Then it charges to 100%.

00:03:08   So ideally, when you wake up at your normal wake up time,

00:03:12   the phone has just charged to 100%.

00:03:14   So it's not spending all night every night plugged in at 100%.

00:03:19   Now, the downside of that is if it miscalculates

00:03:21   or you have to wake up early or whatever,

00:03:23   you could wake up to a phone that's not fully charged

00:03:24   or hasn't even started charging in the worst case scenario.

00:03:27   So I think this is an optional feature.

00:03:29   But most of us who have boring lives on regular schedules,

00:03:33   it sounds like a great way to transparently extend

00:03:36   people's battery lives.

00:03:37   And if you don't want it, again, you can just turn it off,

00:03:40   I think, and just let it charge the old fashioned way.

00:03:42   But I think it's a reasonable thing to default to on,

00:03:45   especially if they're very conservative and they say,

00:03:47   we'll try to be at 100% charge two hours before you wake up

00:03:50   or one hour before you wake up.

00:03:52   Chances are good that'll be fine.

00:03:54   It would be great if there was something when you plugged it

00:03:57   in that threw something up in your face and said,

00:03:59   just so you know, I know you just plugged me in,

00:04:01   but I'm not actually going to charge because I think you're

00:04:03   about to go to sleep and I'm going to start charging right

00:04:07   before you wake up.

00:04:07   If that's not what you want me to do, hit this button,

00:04:10   I'll start charging now.

00:04:11   But that's a hell of a dialog box

00:04:12   that no one's ever going to read.

00:04:13   So I'm not sure how they would pull that off.

00:04:15   But I thought this is a very clever feature

00:04:17   to help people get more life out of their batteries.

00:04:20   All righty.

00:04:21   We had a discussion last episode that Marco

00:04:24   had brought up about using sparse disk images to enforce

00:04:28   a quota for iPhoto.

00:04:30   And a friend of the show, Dave Nanian,

00:04:32   had some tips about maybe a different or better approach

00:04:35   for that.

00:04:36   Marco, do you want to take us through this?

00:04:37   Or perhaps John, since this is file system related?

00:04:39   I can't possibly let you get away with iPhoto there.

00:04:41   It's a Photos app with iCloud.

00:04:43   Oh, god, sorry.

00:04:44   Yes, thank you.

00:04:45   And yeah, and so I had recommended--

00:04:47   my trick was when you're not doing keep all photos in all

00:04:52   their original mode, like when you're doing the optimize

00:04:54   my space mode, like you might do on a secondary computer,

00:04:57   like a laptop.

00:04:59   My trick for that is to put the Photos library

00:05:03   in a sparse bundle disk image that you create with Disk

00:05:06   Utility with a maximum size quota.

00:05:09   And I said mine was like 30 gigs or 50 gigs, something like that.

00:05:11   And so it's a great way to make Photos app respect

00:05:15   a certain disk size maximum.

00:05:17   Dave Nanian, who is of super duper fame,

00:05:20   knows quite a bit about storage and file systems

00:05:23   and things like that.

00:05:24   And he suggested basically for safety and durability reasons

00:05:29   that a sparse bundle disk image is not as reliable and safe

00:05:33   and everything as just using a second APFS space sharing

00:05:38   volume, which is the same trick I used to install Catalina

00:05:42   next to Mojave and have dual boot here.

00:05:45   So I literally just told everyone about that a few weeks ago.

00:05:48   And here we are.

00:05:49   I didn't even think about it for this use.

00:05:51   But if you do the APFS space sharing volume,

00:05:54   it gives you all the protections and integrity and everything

00:05:58   of the native APFS file system running directly itself,

00:06:02   not in a simulated container.

00:06:04   And so it's just safer and it's more flexible.

00:06:06   And you don't have to auto-mount it

00:06:09   using login items and everything.

00:06:11   So that's actually a way better way to do it.

00:06:12   So thanks, Dave Nanian, and check out super duper.

00:06:15   And I'm assuming the reason Marco hasn't done it that way

00:06:17   is he came up with this scheme before APFS has existed

00:06:21   and has just continued to use it.

00:06:23   That is correct.

00:06:24   So anyway, yeah, that's a good idea to convert that.

00:06:26   And to get into a little bit of technical detail

00:06:28   of why using a sparse bundle disk image is not a great idea.

00:06:33   So when you're doing that, a sparse bundle

00:06:36   is this directory full of a bunch of little files.

00:06:38   And it's this driver in front of it

00:06:40   that makes it look like a disk to the operating system.

00:06:44   And so when Photos is running, Photos

00:06:46   thinks it's running to a disk.

00:06:48   And it says, I'm going to write out this JPEG or whatever.

00:06:51   And it says, write this JPEG to disk.

00:06:53   And the driver that sits in front of the disk image

00:06:55   says, yep, sure, totally, I wrote that JPEG to disk.

00:06:58   But that driver has its own set of caches

00:07:01   and other coalescing I/O mechanisms and everything.

00:07:06   And it hasn't actually written a disk.

00:07:07   It was waiting to bundle it up with another big write

00:07:10   because it's going to write out one of those stripe files

00:07:11   somewhere or whatever.

00:07:12   So at that point, Photos thinks everything is safe.

00:07:15   But it's not safe because the bits haven't actually

00:07:17   hit your disk yet.

00:07:18   There's like a second layer of buffering there.

00:07:20   So it's a situation where the application

00:07:22   can think it's doing the right thing to always make sure

00:07:25   that everything on disk is always either a complete image

00:07:27   or a nonexistent image, when in reality, it

00:07:30   could be a partial image written to one

00:07:32   of the stripes in the disk bundle because of that driver.

00:07:34   So that's why APFS is safer because that really

00:07:37   is just the same old volume as your boot volume

00:07:39   or any other volume.

00:07:41   And when Photos says, please write this JPEG to disk,

00:07:44   and APFS says it's done so, it has all the guarantees of APFS

00:07:46   with no extra secondary layer underneath it.

00:07:49   So yeah, the wonders of APFS.

00:07:53   We all need to get used to the fact

00:07:54   that it's really easy and cheap to make volumes.

00:07:57   And in case it wasn't clear from Marco's earlier discussions,

00:08:00   when you make a new APS volume, you

00:08:02   can choose to limit it, as they call it, like a quota

00:08:05   or whatever.

00:08:06   Like you don't pick the size of your volume

00:08:08   because you're not carving up your disk space.

00:08:10   They're all sharing the same space in the container.

00:08:12   And if you don't say anything, it'll just share all the space.

00:08:15   But you can limit it.

00:08:16   So when you create the APFS volume,

00:08:17   just limit it to 30 gigs or whatever you want.

00:08:20   And you have an extremely native,

00:08:23   as native as your boot disk, way to manage your photo storage.

00:08:26   So Friends of the Show, Fun Fact,

00:08:29   which is a show with Eric Devens and Alan Pike,

00:08:33   they have covered, to the best of their ability,

00:08:35   the genesis of Wheel, which is the-- was it a group?

00:08:39   Is that right?

00:08:40   That appears on the Mac, that has some special meaning.

00:08:44   And they did a whole segment on that this past week.

00:08:47   And so we will link that episode in the show notes

00:08:49   if you'd like to hear the results of our extreme digging

00:08:53   trying to figure out what the genesis of this was.

00:08:56   It was pretty awesome.

00:08:57   It was quite funny, as that show tends to be.

00:09:00   So if you haven't checked it out, it is very good.

00:09:02   And I quite enjoy it.

00:09:03   Now, granted, I quite like both of the people who host it.

00:09:06   So I'm predisposed to enjoy it.

00:09:08   But nevertheless, it is quite good.

00:09:10   And then BJ Roland writes us, with regard

00:09:13   to the engineering standards-- that was the pre-show

00:09:15   of the last episode with shall versus must

00:09:19   and things of that nature.

00:09:20   BJ writes, engineering standards,

00:09:22   like civil, mechanical, electrical, et cetera, never

00:09:24   use the word must so as to avoid confusion

00:09:27   between legal obligations and requirements for compliance

00:09:29   with the standard.

00:09:31   The word must implies a legal obligation,

00:09:33   whereas shall is a requirement to comply with the standard.

00:09:35   And then BJ linked to me-- and I will put in the show notes--

00:09:39   a PDF from the American Petroleum Institute,

00:09:42   which defines these shall, denotes a minimum requirement

00:09:44   in order to conform to the standard,

00:09:46   should denotes a recommendation, or that

00:09:48   which is advised but not required in order

00:09:50   to conform to the standard, may denotes a course of action

00:09:53   permissible within the limits of a standard,

00:09:55   and can denotes a statement of possibility or capability.

00:09:58   Who knew?

00:09:58   That much thought went into such short words.

00:10:01   But that's the way it is.

00:10:03   And we can always trust what the American Petroleum Institute

00:10:05   tells us.

00:10:06   Yeah, exactly right.

00:10:08   Those big ICE things up at the polls, yeah, we don't need those.

00:10:12   What are they even called?

00:10:13   Nobody knows.

00:10:14   We don't need them.

00:10:15   Marco, tell me about the iPhone SE and your headphones.

00:10:18   Yeah, so quick updates on things I've talked about recently.

00:10:21   Last episode, I believe, I discussed my iPhone SE test

00:10:25   phone that I had bought.

00:10:26   And I've been switching my SIM into it sometimes,

00:10:30   like to go out at night or something.

00:10:32   I really like the size a lot.

00:10:35   And one thing I've especially noticed

00:10:37   is just compared to my XS, the SE is not only a lot smaller,

00:10:42   and not only fits a lot better in my hand

00:10:44   and is easier to navigate by hand, it's also a lot lighter.

00:10:50   I kind of didn't realize over time

00:10:52   how heavy the iPhone has gotten since then.

00:10:55   But when you compare a XS to an SE,

00:10:58   it's a huge weight difference.

00:11:00   And I've noticed this especially now in the summertime,

00:11:02   I'm wearing shorts a lot.

00:11:04   And it's really hot.

00:11:06   And so I'm wearing these thin, light shorts.

00:11:08   And having the XS in my pocket is not only

00:11:10   is it this giant rectangle, which looks ridiculous

00:11:14   and everything, and it's hard to get out of the pocket

00:11:16   and everything, the XS weighs down my pocket.

00:11:19   It's almost like trying to pull my shorts off.

00:11:21   You might need to get tighter shorts now

00:11:23   that you've lost all this weight.

00:11:25   I actually ran into that recently.

00:11:26   I had some shorts that they were probably

00:11:28   a little bit too big of me.

00:11:29   And I think the waistband had sort of gotten stretched out.

00:11:32   And yeah, I noticed the same thing.

00:11:33   My big phone would be like-- or the worst

00:11:35   would be like I'd have my wallet and my keys and my phone,

00:11:37   and they would just be pulling down my shorts.

00:11:39   So try a smaller size.

00:11:40   No, this is the smaller size.

00:11:43   Like it's amazing just how heavy the phone

00:11:46   is when it's in a very lightweight garment, like very

00:11:49   light shorts.

00:11:50   Really, I hope with future phones--

00:11:53   I mean, I know this is the same problem of all

00:11:56   the competing desires.

00:11:57   If you ask me in the winter what phone I should get next,

00:11:59   I would say, oh, maybe I should try the bigger one to have

00:12:01   all that screen space.

00:12:02   But in the summertime, I'm like, I just

00:12:04   want the smallest phone possible.

00:12:05   I need like summer phone, winter phone here.

00:12:08   But just one more point in the SE's favor

00:12:10   there and kind of one more vote for like, hey, you know what?

00:12:12   Actually, smaller phones might not

00:12:13   be so bad to keep making them and keep updating them.

00:12:17   So anyway, this fall when I'm back in jeans

00:12:20   and they release some awesome new giant screen phone,

00:12:22   remind me of this conversation, please.

00:12:24   And when I'm saying, oh, maybe I should go for the big one,

00:12:26   remind me that I said this, that no.

00:12:27   Well, you said the last time the rumor is

00:12:29   that the non-max version is actually

00:12:31   going to be a little bit smaller.

00:12:32   So you're going to be getting what you want.

00:12:34   A little bit smaller, but not, you know.

00:12:36   Yeah.

00:12:36   I believe that's for next year, but we'll see.

00:12:38   And then a second minor update here.

00:12:40   I went through this whole segment

00:12:42   a few weeks ago about how I was doing my Powerbeats Pro.

00:12:46   And I really enjoyed them for summertime,

00:12:49   except there was a nagging issue that you can't really

00:12:51   like take them off and put them anywhere.

00:12:54   Because like you can't put them in your pocket

00:12:56   because then their buttons get pushed and everything.

00:12:59   And well, I'm back to my Trex Air, my Aftershokz, Trex--

00:13:04   is it Air?

00:13:05   Yeah, the Air, the smaller ones.

00:13:06   Yeah, I'm back to those.

00:13:07   And yes, they are a sponsor of the show.

00:13:09   They did not ask me to say this.

00:13:10   They aren't sponsoring this week,

00:13:11   or that week for that matter.

00:13:14   But yeah, I'm back to the Trex Air.

00:13:15   Because I realize that they basically

00:13:18   solved all the problems I had with the Beats.

00:13:21   Because I can, when I don't need to be listening to them,

00:13:24   or when I want to take it off so I could talk to somebody,

00:13:27   I can just drop them down and have

00:13:29   them like stick around my neck.

00:13:30   And even if I have to put them in a pocket,

00:13:32   they kind of stick out the top of the pocket.

00:13:34   They can't go all the way in because of their shape.

00:13:36   But no buttons get pushed.

00:13:37   And they don't accidentally disconnect or reconnect

00:13:39   or anything because they have their own power control.

00:13:41   So I'm back to the Trex Air, my wonderful Aftershokz.

00:13:44   And they are indeed the superior summer headphone.

00:13:48   But I'll go back to the Beats Pro when it comes time to like

00:13:51   go to the gym and stuff like that.

00:13:53   What about all those headphones?

00:13:55   I think actually Beats makes some of them,

00:13:56   that it's two little bud thingies,

00:13:57   but they're connected by a wire.

00:13:59   - That was the previous Powerbeats.

00:14:01   I heard, I think from you, didn't Tina

00:14:04   go through a lot of those?

00:14:06   One of our friends, their spouse went through a lot of them

00:14:09   because they kept breaking, I forget who it is.

00:14:10   - Well, Kyle's the Grey I think had gone through that,

00:14:12   if I'm not mistaken.

00:14:13   He had plowed through like four or five sets

00:14:15   or something like that.

00:14:16   I think that's right, I might be making--

00:14:18   - Yeah, they have some massive flaw,

00:14:19   like the previous Powerbeats.

00:14:21   And then we also had people write in to tell me,

00:14:23   'cause I had said on that show,

00:14:25   I really loved the pairing style,

00:14:29   like the AirPods pairing style that these new headphones had

00:14:33   and that I really wished Apple would make full-size

00:14:36   over-ear headphones with that, like as is rumored.

00:14:39   And a number of people wrote in just to point out

00:14:41   that they do make full-size headphones with the,

00:14:44   not the new H1 chip from the AirPod 2s,

00:14:48   but they do make Beats Studio headphones,

00:14:52   which are indeed over-ear full-size headphones

00:14:55   that have the AirPods 1 chip, the W1 in them.

00:15:00   So that was good to hear.

00:15:02   I have not had a chance to try them because,

00:15:04   you know, Beats life.

00:15:06   But ultimately, I think at this point,

00:15:07   I would wait until the version two

00:15:09   because the version two chip is so much better,

00:15:11   like all the faster pairing

00:15:13   and the hey dingus stuff and everything.

00:15:14   So at this point, I will wait for version two

00:15:16   before I try that.

00:15:17   But it's good to know that they actually already do make

00:15:19   basically the product I was asking for.

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00:16:49   Apple may be bankrolling original podcasts,

00:16:56   Spotify style, and trying to kind of dip

00:16:59   their toe in the podcasting water by funding podcasts.

00:17:02   So this broke midday yesterday as we record.

00:17:06   And it was Mark Gurman and Lucas Shaw.

00:17:08   And apparently, Apple is, like I said,

00:17:11   going to fund podcasts according to them.

00:17:14   What do we think about this, Marco?

00:17:17   - Oh boy.

00:17:18   This is messy.

00:17:20   We've talked a lot about the whole idea

00:17:23   of podcast platforms having proprietary lockdown content

00:17:27   that's only available on their platform,

00:17:29   usually through some kind of paid plan.

00:17:31   And I think most of what we have said

00:17:35   would still apply to this.

00:17:37   The huge difference here is that Apple has,

00:17:42   by most estimates, about 60% of the market share

00:17:46   of podcast players.

00:17:47   The next biggest player after that is Spotify at around 10%.

00:17:52   So, and then everything below Spotify is like 3%, 2%.

00:17:56   So it drops off very quickly after Apple.

00:17:59   And Apple is the big player that matters the most.

00:18:02   Spotify matters a little, and everyone else like me

00:18:05   and everyone else doesn't matter that much

00:18:06   in the grand scheme of things.

00:18:07   It really is a different animal when talking

00:18:10   about this kind of concept when it's Apple doing it

00:18:12   compared to anyone else doing it.

00:18:15   So that being said, having some kind of exclusive podcast

00:18:19   to the Apple podcast app, it has the potential

00:18:22   for some really negative effects on the podcast ecosystem,

00:18:26   but ultimately I don't think it will play out that way.

00:18:30   I don't see a lot of podcasts saying

00:18:33   we'll be exclusive to Apple,

00:18:35   because for all the reasons we've said it for other things,

00:18:37   like if you go to Apple, if an existing high demand show

00:18:41   goes to Apple, you could say, yeah,

00:18:43   they have 60% of market share,

00:18:44   but you could also say they only have 60% market share.

00:18:48   So if you are an average show, which we aren't,

00:18:51   so our discussion would be very different

00:18:53   if they came to us with a truckload of money.

00:18:55   We would actually, we'd have a bigger problem

00:18:58   on our hands here.

00:18:59   But for most shows, this proposition would basically be,

00:19:02   hey, do you wanna lose 40% of your audience

00:19:04   and come work for us, basically?

00:19:07   60% is enough that this kind of thing

00:19:09   is a scary potential for bad effects,

00:19:12   but it's also not so much that we can assume

00:19:15   it would be successful for them.

00:19:16   And their market share over the last few years

00:19:18   is going down, not up, as more clients

00:19:22   take more share from them and as the audience grows

00:19:25   in places that aren't Apple, like Spotify.

00:19:28   So on one hand, I don't see a lot of big shows

00:19:32   jumping on this because I don't think they'd be willing

00:19:36   to lock out or lose such a big chunk of their audience

00:19:39   that isn't on Apple Podcasts.

00:19:41   And once you put up a paywall, yeah, right now,

00:19:45   60% of the people use Apple Podcasts,

00:19:47   but how many of them will pay, assuming this is,

00:19:50   let's assume, for the sake of argument,

00:19:53   that this is Podcasts Plus, and it's another $10 a month

00:19:57   Apple service, or whatever it is,

00:19:59   they keep adding all these Plus services

00:20:00   that are probably gonna be around 10 bucks a month.

00:20:02   Let's assume it's what it is.

00:20:03   Pick your price, it doesn't really matter.

00:20:05   The fact is it's probably a paid service

00:20:07   that Apple wants people to subscribe to, right?

00:20:09   So if they do this, you're not gonna get

00:20:12   60% of your audience.

00:20:14   You're gonna get like 1% of your audience

00:20:17   because the other 59% who are using Apple Podcasts

00:20:20   won't pay, and then the 40% who aren't there

00:20:23   can't even have it as an option.

00:20:26   So I don't think it would be wise for most shows

00:20:30   to sign up for this.

00:20:32   Now they could be developing original shows,

00:20:34   that's a different story, that has different math

00:20:36   and different effects.

00:20:38   That's probably more of what they're going to be doing

00:20:41   because, as I said, it doesn't make a lot of sense

00:20:43   for any existing successful show to take themselves

00:20:47   and go behind a paywall.

00:20:49   That doesn't make a lot of sense.

00:20:51   Strategically, money-wise, everything,

00:20:53   it's not a good idea, so that's probably not gonna happen

00:20:55   very often.

00:20:57   So if you go to the idea of they're gonna be developing

00:20:59   original content and funding that,

00:21:03   then that's fine, I think that would play out

00:21:06   similarly to such efforts on Spotify

00:21:08   and on Stitcher Premium and on places like Audible,

00:21:12   like places that have originals, like exclusive originals

00:21:15   that were developed for them by them

00:21:18   behind some kind of paywall.

00:21:20   Those do okay for some of those platforms,

00:21:23   but they don't really affect the outside world

00:21:25   of podcasting.

00:21:26   They don't have enough traction, seemingly,

00:21:29   to really affect everyone else.

00:21:31   So this is probably how this is gonna play out.

00:21:33   Like, Apple News Plus has not killed anything,

00:21:38   except maybe the usefulness of the Apple News app.

00:21:40   But besides that, Apple News Plus,

00:21:42   which I think would be a very similar approach,

00:21:45   hasn't really done anything.

00:21:47   It hasn't set the road on fire,

00:21:48   it hasn't taken off that well.

00:21:50   It hasn't really been a great or a terrible thing

00:21:54   for anybody, it's just kind of too small

00:21:56   of a splash to matter.

00:21:57   That same scale of effect is probably

00:22:01   what's going to happen here.

00:22:02   They're probably gonna have some big names,

00:22:04   they're probably gonna come out the door

00:22:05   with some kind of premium thing,

00:22:07   and they'll get some usage,

00:22:09   but I'm guessing it will go just like everyone else's

00:22:12   paid exclusive originals,

00:22:15   and not really move the needle for those of us

00:22:20   who aren't in that world.

00:22:21   And for this area of podcasting,

00:22:25   like the kind of tech and Apple News,

00:22:27   anybody listening to this show probably,

00:22:29   you probably won't even notice this kind of stuff.

00:22:31   'Cause first of all, most of you aren't using Apple podcasts.

00:22:35   Unlike the general purpose podcast market,

00:22:38   most people who listen to shows like this

00:22:40   don't use Apple podcasts, it's a much smaller market share.

00:22:43   And so you won't even see these shows,

00:22:45   you won't even hear about them,

00:22:46   and if Apple does something to make their own client

00:22:50   more attractive to people,

00:22:51   they probably aren't, it probably isn't gonna work very well

00:22:53   on our listeners that listen to this kind of show.

00:22:56   So I don't think it's gonna really affect us much,

00:22:59   if and if at all, except it'll give us a few show topics

00:23:02   to talk about.

00:23:03   But setting that aside,

00:23:04   I don't think it's gonna really do much.

00:23:06   It's probably not gonna go very far,

00:23:08   and it probably isn't gonna affect us

00:23:09   even if it does go a little bit far.

00:23:11   But setting all that aside,

00:23:12   this certainly does bring up an interesting discomfort

00:23:17   that as Apple transitions into a company

00:23:21   that cares a lot more about services

00:23:22   and is seeking much stronger revenue

00:23:25   and strong revenue growth from services,

00:23:28   they're looking around, they're poking around the company

00:23:30   saying, "Hey, where can we rustle up

00:23:32   "some more services revenue?

00:23:34   "Hey, Podcast Division over there,

00:23:36   "we haven't talked to you in a while,

00:23:39   "can we extract a monthly fee out of you?

00:23:40   "Can we get that somehow?

00:23:41   "Can we get people to pay you a few dollars a month

00:23:44   "here and there?"

00:23:45   There's a lot of incentives now that Apple has

00:23:48   that are at odds with a lot of its previous ideals

00:23:52   or previous behavior,

00:23:54   things like doing things that are best for the customer

00:23:57   that changes when you sell iCloud backup space by the month,

00:24:01   stuff like that.

00:24:02   There's all these weird incentives they now have

00:24:04   that are counter to,

00:24:06   we just wanna make the best products for everybody.

00:24:09   So as they push more into the services narrative

00:24:12   and services as a major growth engine for money,

00:24:16   this kind of stuff is gonna keep happening.

00:24:18   I worry what that means for podcasting

00:24:20   because so far they have been such a good

00:24:23   kind of neutral steward of their massive power

00:24:26   in the world of podcasting.

00:24:27   If it weren't for Apple's basically benevolent neglect

00:24:31   of the world of podcasting,

00:24:32   it wouldn't be what it is today.

00:24:34   Podcasting would not exist the way it does today.

00:24:36   It would not be this good, it would not be this big,

00:24:38   it would not be this healthy,

00:24:40   and it would certainly not be this open

00:24:42   if Apple was actively involved in maximizing everything

00:24:47   about podcasting for themselves.

00:24:49   It would not be what it is today.

00:24:51   And we really have them to thank for where it is.

00:24:55   We have their incredible benevolent neglect

00:24:58   and mostly hands-off leadership

00:25:00   of their massive market share,

00:25:02   and their open directory,

00:25:03   well, their semi-open directory that we all kinda use.

00:25:05   We have them to thank for where we are now

00:25:07   because of all that stuff.

00:25:09   And we've just been assuming all this time,

00:25:11   well, Apple really hasn't made significant moves

00:25:13   in podcasting, they probably never will.

00:25:16   So when people like me would talk about things like

00:25:19   market share diversity and client diversity

00:25:21   and how important it is to have more podcast apps out there,

00:25:24   there was this giant sitting on the side

00:25:28   with 60, 70, 80% market share,

00:25:31   and I wasn't worried about them

00:25:33   because they were doing all the right things

00:25:34   and they didn't seem to really care.

00:25:36   And they were doing all the right things

00:25:37   for like a decade or more,

00:25:39   and so it didn't seem like they were ever gonna be a threat

00:25:43   to this open ecosystem and this wonderful medium

00:25:46   that we all love.

00:25:48   So the fact that they're now seemingly making a move

00:25:51   that is kinda dipping a toe in the water in that direction,

00:25:55   that is concerning merely because of their scale.

00:25:58   That's kinda the pessimist take there,

00:26:00   and I do worry about that,

00:26:01   and I am gonna be watching this closely.

00:26:03   This could turn bad real fast,

00:26:04   depending on what they do and how they do it.

00:26:06   - I have the optimist take for you.

00:26:09   That's what I was thinking of,

00:26:10   like what's the best case scenario?

00:26:11   - I mean the best case scenario is

00:26:13   this kinda doesn't go anywhere and it fizzles out

00:26:15   and we keep doing things the way we've been doing them.

00:26:16   - Well, no, not the best case scenario for how it turns out,

00:26:19   best case scenario for their motivations.

00:26:21   'Cause it looked at through the lens of a company

00:26:23   that has the track record that Apple has with podcasts.

00:26:27   The most charitable attribution and motivation could be

00:26:32   Apple has done what it's done with podcasts,

00:26:35   Apple sees what we all see,

00:26:36   which is the luminaries and the Spotify's of the world

00:26:39   coming for podcasting,

00:26:41   and they're throwing money at it and getting exclusives

00:26:43   and putting up paywalls and vending their own clients.

00:26:46   And from Apple's perspective,

00:26:48   presumably there is some,

00:26:53   they didn't accidentally treat podcasting

00:26:55   the way they treated it for like 10, 15 years.

00:26:57   Like it wasn't an accident, it wasn't like nobody noticed,

00:26:59   it was part of a conscious strategy,

00:27:02   which is having podcasts more or less the way Apple made them

00:27:06   by keeping them open and diverse

00:27:08   and having their player be the most popular player

00:27:10   makes Apple's devices more valuable

00:27:13   because if you get one of these things,

00:27:14   whether it be an iPod or an iPhone

00:27:15   or whatever it has been over the years,

00:27:18   one of the things you can do with it besides text people

00:27:21   and watch movies and YouTube and listen to music

00:27:24   is also you can listen to podcasts, right?

00:27:26   And these other companies employing their strategies

00:27:30   and throwing money at it is a threat to basically

00:27:34   a benefit of Apple's products

00:27:37   because Apple has lots of situations where,

00:27:40   yeah, they make the product,

00:27:41   but there's some dominant non-Apple third party force

00:27:46   that controls a major part of the ecosystem.

00:27:47   Examples are YouTube, Facebook, Netflix,

00:27:50   companies that aren't Apple

00:27:52   that at various times Apple butts heads with

00:27:53   but that are an essential part of the value proposition

00:27:55   of Apple's products because if you buy an Apple device

00:27:59   and you can't use Netflix on it, that's bad for Apple

00:28:01   and same thing with Facebook, same thing with YouTube

00:28:04   and those companies have at various times exerted that power

00:28:08   in ways that Apple has been uncomfortable with.

00:28:09   So I don't think Apple would be super happy

00:28:12   if Spotify became the YouTube of a podcast

00:28:16   or if Luminary was greatly successful.

00:28:17   So most charitable you could say Apple sees this happening

00:28:21   and says we need to defend podcasting

00:28:25   and the way we can defend it is by doing more or less

00:28:27   what they're doing, throw money at it, get original things

00:28:29   like basically the old Microsoft strategy

00:28:32   of we have more money, time and resources than you do

00:28:35   so we're just gonna do the same thing you do

00:28:37   more or less the same way, maybe not as well

00:28:38   but who really cares and we'll just wait

00:28:40   for you to run out of money

00:28:41   and wait for your VCs to run out of patience

00:28:42   'cause we can do this all day just like Captain America

00:28:45   and then once that happens, they just go back to okay

00:28:49   and now podcasting continues to be a safe neutral thing

00:28:52   that is a benefit to our products

00:28:54   and we don't have to worry about getting YouTube

00:28:55   or Netflix.

00:28:56   I'm not saying this is the most likely scenario

00:28:59   but it is at least plausible

00:29:01   and the reason I think it's plausible is that honestly,

00:29:04   I think if the servers or even though people came around

00:29:07   and say can we get money out of that,

00:29:08   someone would do the math and say not really.

00:29:11   Like it's just podcasting and I know it seems big

00:29:15   but in the grand scheme of things,

00:29:16   it's like an ant's fart in the app store

00:29:21   of like three days worth of revenue.

00:29:22   Like it's nothing.

00:29:23   It's nothing compared to other big businesses

00:29:25   like music, movies, games

00:29:28   and the whole rest of the app store.

00:29:30   I don't know if that's true.

00:29:31   That's kind of like my sort of gut reaction

00:29:33   is that podcasting is as big as it may be on Apple scale.

00:29:38   It's just like, eh.

00:29:40   So I give it a less than 50% chance

00:29:45   that their motivation is purely charitable

00:29:47   and they're just defending podcasting

00:29:48   but I'm not willing to entirely rule it out

00:29:51   just because of the people who are in charge

00:29:53   and the fact that it makes sense

00:29:55   that Apple doesn't want that to happen to podcasting.

00:29:56   It's bad for Apple if that happens

00:29:58   and like you said, Margot, like honestly,

00:30:01   their chances, I don't think they have any illusions

00:30:03   unlike Luminary and perhaps Spotify.

00:30:06   I don't think they have any particular illusions

00:30:08   about this amazing upside of them dominating podcasting

00:30:12   mostly because Apple has dominated podcasting

00:30:14   and they have not reached for that massive upside

00:30:16   probably because it doesn't exist

00:30:17   and so I'm really hoping that this is a mostly defensive move

00:30:22   that will stave off the competitors

00:30:27   that we think have worse motivations

00:30:29   but they will not turn into Apple

00:30:33   going all podcast evil on us.

00:30:35   And the second aspect of this is about

00:30:37   if they tried to go help podcast evil,

00:30:39   how this strategy, I mean, you just had a million reasons,

00:30:44   Margot, about why it's probably not gonna be successful.

00:30:47   I have another reason why Apple might think

00:30:49   it's going to be successful

00:30:50   but why it's a little bit different.

00:30:53   So the thing I kept thinking of

00:30:54   with all of their plus stuff or whatever

00:30:56   is they're one product that doesn't have a plus

00:30:57   after the name, their one service product

00:30:59   that doesn't have a plus, which is Apple Arcade

00:31:01   where they pay people to make games for iOS

00:31:06   and all their other devices.

00:31:07   And it's like, why would Apple,

00:31:09   we talk about this when we talk about Apple Arcade,

00:31:10   why would Apple do this?

00:31:11   People already make games for all their devices.

00:31:14   Why would they pay people to do it

00:31:15   and then just charge a subscription

00:31:16   and distribute that subscription

00:31:17   based on how much you play and blah, blah, blah,

00:31:19   like the whole model.

00:31:19   Like why would they bother doing that?

00:31:21   What's the point?

00:31:22   And I feel like the point of Apple Arcade is

00:31:24   there is an ecosystem for games on Apple devices

00:31:27   but that ecosystem is lacking in ways

00:31:29   that Apple cares about.

00:31:31   The first way it's lacking is that a lot of those developers

00:31:34   don't support like all the lesser devices.

00:31:37   Oh, you don't support Apple TV, you don't support the Mac.

00:31:39   Yeah, of course nobody does, it's ridiculous.

00:31:40   But Apple would like you to do that.

00:31:42   So one way they can make that happen is by giving you money

00:31:45   to say, okay, now will you support Apple TV?

00:31:47   Sure, I guess, yeah, sure, pay me.

00:31:49   But the second thing is the games

00:31:51   that are dominating the App Store

00:31:53   tend to have these exploitive mechanics

00:31:55   and these free to play things that extract money from you

00:32:00   in exchange for the mechanics

00:32:02   that withhold the fun until you pay them more money

00:32:06   and have these subscriptions and all this other stuff.

00:32:09   And how can Apple stop that from happening?

00:32:13   They've built the App Store such that

00:32:15   that is the apex predator.

00:32:16   They can change the ecosystem by saying,

00:32:19   what if we pay you to make a game

00:32:21   and we'll give you a bunch of money

00:32:24   but you can't put in in-app purchases.

00:32:25   It has to be you just buy a game and you play it

00:32:27   and it's fun and that's it.

00:32:28   So they can shape the market with their money

00:32:31   to make a new thing that hasn't previously existed,

00:32:34   make that become successful.

00:32:36   Podcasting on the other hand is not suffering

00:32:39   from a blight of free to play podcasts

00:32:42   that exploit these mechanics or whatever.

00:32:43   Like you could argue that wouldn't it be great

00:32:45   if your podcast didn't have ads

00:32:47   and lots of these companies have argued that like,

00:32:48   oh, our podcasts are great, they don't have ads.

00:32:50   It's like podcasts with ads are not the same thing

00:32:54   as like casinos for kids that extract money from you

00:32:56   and delay these mechanics and make you buy coins

00:32:59   to get energy to be able to continue.

00:33:00   Like it's not even close.

00:33:03   I don't think people who are listening to podcasts today

00:33:06   are particularly upset about how they're being exploited

00:33:10   by free podcasts.

00:33:11   I think it's a trade-off that most people

00:33:15   are more or less happy with and have been happy with

00:33:17   when it was called public radio despite the fact

00:33:20   that during pledge drive month it would drive people crazy

00:33:22   but other than that,

00:33:23   and we have that in podcast world too,

00:33:26   it's a relationship that makes some kind of sense

00:33:29   and you don't hear stories about a kid losing three grand

00:33:32   and then having to complain to Apple to get their money back

00:33:34   you don't hear all these problems of like buying a game

00:33:37   and feeling like you have, or downloading a game

00:33:39   and feeling like you haven't actually gotten anything

00:33:41   and not realizing how much you have to keep paying.

00:33:42   Like that's not how podcasts work today.

00:33:44   So the podcast ecosystem is not in a desperate need

00:33:48   of a new thing that can only exist

00:33:51   when Apple throws money at it.

00:33:52   So by Apple throwing money at this,

00:33:54   I think what they're going to get best case scenario

00:33:58   is a bunch of good podcasts.

00:34:00   And probably that's what Spotify can get.

00:34:03   Give people a bunch of money

00:34:04   and they make a bunch of good podcasts.

00:34:05   And so Spotify will have some good podcasts

00:34:07   that are only on Spotify,

00:34:08   Apple will have some good podcasts

00:34:09   that are only on Apple's player.

00:34:11   And there's this subscription model and blah, blah, blah.

00:34:14   But I don't think that fundamentally changes

00:34:15   the nature of the ecosystem.

00:34:16   Unlike Apple Arcade where if that came to exist

00:34:19   and be a subscription, it would feel so much different

00:34:22   than the wild west of the app store

00:34:24   where everything's free to play.

00:34:25   If you subscribe to Apple Arcade,

00:34:26   you would be having a qualitatively different experience

00:34:31   than if you didn't subscribe.

00:34:32   Whereas if you subscribe to one of these podcast service,

00:34:34   it's like, well, do you care about any of those podcasts

00:34:36   or do you not?

00:34:37   But either way, oh, these shows don't have ads,

00:34:39   but who cares?

00:34:40   I barely noticed that the ads

00:34:41   such a small percentage of the time

00:34:43   and it's not a thing that bothers me or whatever.

00:34:44   So I hope this is a defensive maneuver on Apple's part.

00:34:49   I also hope they don't expect it to change the landscape

00:34:53   or go gangbusters.

00:34:54   'Cause honestly, the value that they're adding to podcasting

00:34:57   is small.

00:34:59   The defensive value is perhaps large

00:35:01   because you're basically staying on equal footing

00:35:03   and not allowing Spotify or Luminary

00:35:05   on the off chance that they start to snowball.

00:35:08   You're not allowing them to have the leg up on you,

00:35:09   but it's like, look, we're all like this

00:35:11   and this is the player you're already using already.

00:35:13   So the playing field is level again

00:35:15   and you probably don't care about these podcasts anyways,

00:35:16   so just ignore all of this.

00:35:18   That is my uncharacteristically optimistic dream scenario

00:35:23   is that we'll get a couple of good podcasts

00:35:25   that Apple pays for, it will stave off the competitors,

00:35:28   but the landscape will stay more or less the same.

00:35:30   Remind me of my brief deluded optimism three years from now.

00:35:35   I did say it was less than 50% chance,

00:35:37   but I'm not willing to dismiss it as ridiculous.

00:35:41   - So just before we get all of the commentary and questions,

00:35:46   if Apple came to the three of us and said,

00:35:49   here's a billion a piece, would you take it

00:35:51   and take your just peerless podcast

00:35:55   over to our Podcast Plus?

00:35:57   I think we can all agree that for a billion a piece,

00:35:59   we would say yes.

00:36:00   - Of course.

00:36:01   I mean, everyone has a price.

00:36:03   Everyone has a price, we all have prices,

00:36:04   but the thing is, no one's gonna pay our price

00:36:06   because we are not, it's like Marco said,

00:36:09   why would you take an existing show

00:36:11   and convince them to reduce their audience?

00:36:13   You would just pay famous people, actual famous people,

00:36:16   to make a new thing that isn't available anywhere.

00:36:20   It's such a straightforward strategy.

00:36:21   When Apple did its TV service,

00:36:23   they didn't buy friends or the office,

00:36:25   although arguably maybe they should have,

00:36:27   they paid a bunch of money for people to make new shows.

00:36:30   That's your value proposition, unique things.

00:36:33   And no one is happy about having something that's unique

00:36:36   by taking something that wasn't unique

00:36:38   and hoarding it just to yourself.

00:36:40   That just makes everybody sad.

00:36:41   So that's not gonna happen.

00:36:43   And anyway, Apple wouldn't be going after tech podcasts.

00:36:47   They'd be going after comedians or--

00:36:50   - Oprah.

00:36:50   - Yeah, exactly, Oprah.

00:36:53   Look at who, Steven Spielberg and Oprah are on stage.

00:36:55   We were not, so let's know.

00:36:57   That's the level that Apple's playing at.

00:36:59   - Don't sell yourself short, Jon.

00:37:01   Everyone would love it if we showed up on stage.

00:37:03   Everyone, even the people who'd have never heard of us.

00:37:05   - Everyone listening to this podcast would,

00:37:07   and everyone else would say, where's Oprah?

00:37:09   - No way, man.

00:37:11   - Do I get a car?

00:37:12   (laughing)

00:37:14   - You know, for a billion apiece,

00:37:17   maybe we will buy a few listeners some cars.

00:37:19   We'll buy you a car podcast.

00:37:21   Can I interest anyone in a car podcast?

00:37:23   - Oh, there it is.

00:37:24   - There we go.

00:37:25   - Maybe that's the way I'll finally get my dream

00:37:26   of bringing neutral back,

00:37:27   is they back truckloads of money.

00:37:30   - Apple will pay for it, there you go.

00:37:32   - For a billion dollars, I would do neutral again.

00:37:34   - As would I.

00:37:36   - You hear that, Apple?

00:37:36   - It would be a shorter show if we would just list

00:37:38   the things that we would not do for a billion dollars.

00:37:40   - Yeah, right?

00:37:41   - That's also true.

00:37:42   Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:37:44   I can't even imagine what this show

00:37:48   would have to do differently if Apple brought

00:37:51   a whole pile of money to us and we legitimately did take it.

00:37:54   Again, this would never happen.

00:37:55   It would never happen.

00:37:56   But just for the sake of thinking about it,

00:38:00   I don't know if we could continue to do the show

00:38:04   as it exists if Apple was paying for it.

00:38:07   Because even if we complained about Apple,

00:38:09   as we do from time to time--

00:38:11   - Us, we complain?

00:38:13   - Yeah, exactly, yeah.

00:38:14   So I feel like even if we were complaining

00:38:18   in this hypothetical world where Apple owns us,

00:38:21   a question mark, then people would be,

00:38:23   "Oh, you're just saying that so you don't sound biased

00:38:25   "and really you just do whatever Apple tells you to do."

00:38:28   - But we wouldn't care because we'd be billionaires, so.

00:38:31   - That's a fair point.

00:38:33   I really do think, and people have asked me,

00:38:36   and I think you guys as well in the past,

00:38:38   why don't you just go work for Apple?

00:38:40   And aside from the fact that I'm not necessarily keen

00:38:44   on picking up my family and moving across the country,

00:38:46   especially to a state that's about to fall off the country,

00:38:49   everything about my life would have to change.

00:38:53   Literally everything about my life,

00:38:55   except my family, would have to change.

00:38:58   - Including you wouldn't be able to do the show.

00:39:00   Like there's one thing of Apple paying for your pocket,

00:39:02   but the rule that Apple has is if you're an employee,

00:39:05   you don't get to do shows like this.

00:39:08   You just don't.

00:39:08   So that's even worse.

00:39:11   Going to work for Apple would be worse

00:39:13   than if they just paid for the show.

00:39:15   'Cause if they paid for the show,

00:39:16   yes, it's a clear conflict of interest,

00:39:17   but if you just stated up the front,

00:39:19   people could decide whether they wanna bother

00:39:21   listening to a show that's paid for by Apple or not, right?

00:39:23   But if you go to work for Apple, there's no show.

00:39:25   - Yeah, yeah, exactly right.

00:39:26   So please don't go running to Apple, you two,

00:39:30   'cause I know I'm not.

00:39:31   - I don't think Marco is a flight risk.

00:39:33   - Yeah, that's not gonna happen.

00:39:35   We are sponsored this week by Squarespace.

00:39:38   Start building your website today at squarespace.com

00:39:41   and enter offer code ATP at checkout

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00:39:45   Now I have a real awesome true story

00:39:47   about Squarespace this week.

00:39:48   There is a website that I have to get info from

00:39:50   on a regular basis from a local organization.

00:39:53   It was made, I don't know, in the 1950s or something,

00:39:55   and the people who run it say they can't

00:39:57   put information up there fast enough

00:39:59   because they have to email some contractor

00:40:01   to put it up there.

00:40:02   They can't do it themselves.

00:40:03   I said, you know what, let me fix this for you.

00:40:05   I went on Squarespace, made the entire site,

00:40:08   remade their site, it took only a few hours,

00:40:10   and this is a complex site.

00:40:12   There were probably 150 different documents

00:40:14   to upload for various like PDF links.

00:40:17   There were probably 25, 30 pages on the site.

00:40:20   There's an events calendar, there's an image gallery.

00:40:22   I just replicated on Squarespace.

00:40:24   It took maybe three or four hours one night.

00:40:26   I showed them, and I just handed them the login info.

00:40:28   It's still in free trial mode.

00:40:29   I didn't give them a credit card or anything.

00:40:31   Still free trial mode, and I said here,

00:40:32   take this if you want it.

00:40:34   If you don't, no problem.

00:40:35   And the great thing is then I'm out of the picture.

00:40:37   They can update stuff themselves,

00:40:39   and if they need any help,

00:40:40   Squarespace offers direct support with all the plans.

00:40:43   It's amazing.

00:40:44   So you can see for yourself how great this is.

00:40:47   I gotta say, I was blown away by how great

00:40:49   I was able to make this website in one evening.

00:40:52   They were quoted a price to modernize the website

00:40:55   with a private contractor of $40,000,

00:40:58   and Squarespace costs a lot less than that.

00:41:00   (laughing)

00:41:01   So see for yourself, get this done for somebody,

00:41:03   rescue somebody's old website from the stone ages for them,

00:41:06   and hand it off to them and say,

00:41:07   "Here, if you want it, here you go."

00:41:08   At squarespace.com/ATP.

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00:41:13   make sure to go back there, squarespace.com/ATP,

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00:41:25   (upbeat music)

00:41:27   - Oh man, but you know who Marco does wanna work for?

00:41:31   Marco wants to work for Dropbox.

00:41:33   - Oh God.

00:41:35   - Can I just say, what (beep) bull (beep)

00:41:38   just happened to my computer today?

00:41:40   Because I was reading Twitter,

00:41:42   and I saw you're complaining about how Dropbox

00:41:45   suddenly appeared in your doc, and I thought to myself,

00:41:47   "Surely that can't be a widespread thing.

00:41:50   "Surely that wouldn't happen to my computer."

00:41:53   And sure enough, when I arrive at my iMac,

00:41:56   guess what's in my doc?

00:41:58   - Oh my God.

00:41:59   And the window's up too, that's the best part,

00:42:01   like the window shows itself.

00:42:03   (laughing)

00:42:04   - So angry.

00:42:05   - Oh man, Dropbox, you know, every so often,

00:42:09   Dropbox does something that annoys me,

00:42:11   and I look around at solutions to dump it,

00:42:13   and I think this time I'm really in,

00:42:15   like this time I've really had enough.

00:42:18   'Cause what they've shown me, and forgive me,

00:42:20   I tweeted about this earlier, so if you've seen it already,

00:42:21   forgive the repetition, what Dropbox has shown

00:42:25   a number of times over the last couple of years,

00:42:28   from various things like the accessibility permission,

00:42:31   the fake permission dialogues they present,

00:42:32   like system dialogues to capture your root password

00:42:34   and stuff like that, Dropbox has shown

00:42:37   they can't really be trusted to have good judgment

00:42:41   with the amount of power they have over my computer.

00:42:44   Dropbox runs as a user process on my computer,

00:42:48   I think it's just a user process, I hope it isn't root,

00:42:50   but it probably is, who knows, I bet some part of it

00:42:52   is probably root, but it runs as a user process,

00:42:55   it has access to all of the user files that I have,

00:42:58   you know, all of, because it runs as used,

00:43:00   and it's not a sandbox, so it has access

00:43:01   to all of your files, and it runs automatically

00:43:04   updating software, it automatically self-updates

00:43:08   whenever it feels like it.

00:43:10   That's an incredible amount of access,

00:43:12   that's an incredible amount of power it has,

00:43:14   and access it has to my stuff, and so for a company

00:43:17   that has that kind of access and that kind of power,

00:43:20   to repeatedly show poor judgment of how it wields that power

00:43:25   and what it should do to my computer,

00:43:27   and what kind of power it should have and take,

00:43:29   and how much it wants to get in my way,

00:43:31   and pop up dialogues when I plug cameras in

00:43:33   and stuff like that, it has shown me

00:43:35   that I shouldn't trust it anymore,

00:43:36   it has shown me that it is not worthy of trusting it

00:43:39   with the power it has, the immense power it has

00:43:42   on my computer, so now, more than ever,

00:43:47   I am looking to remove Dropbox from my life,

00:43:50   and we'll see how that goes.

00:43:52   - You were comparing it when you were tweeting about it,

00:43:55   or someone compared it about it,

00:43:56   and then they're comparing it to Twitter,

00:43:57   and I think the motivation behind both Twitter's changes

00:44:02   that we all hated and Dropbox's changes

00:44:04   that we're all hating is the same.

00:44:06   It's two businesses that started with a particular model

00:44:10   that users like trying to figure out

00:44:12   how they're going to be a business that makes the money back

00:44:16   for all their VCs or whatever, with Twitter was like,

00:44:19   we don't think we can charge people,

00:44:22   so we have to figure out how to make money

00:44:24   as an advertising platform, we need to take control

00:44:26   of the clients and drive engagement

00:44:28   with an algorithmic timeline and all these things

00:44:30   that we hate, blah, blah, blah, and Dropbox,

00:44:31   the old complaint is like, if you just make a folder

00:44:33   that syncs, that's not enough, you have to be enterprisey,

00:44:35   you have to take over search, you have to become

00:44:36   the gateway for all files across an entire organization

00:44:39   and do all these things, features that we don't care about

00:44:42   because the business thinks to be as successful

00:44:46   as the business wants to be, you can't just be a folder

00:44:49   that syncs, that's a great way to get off the ground,

00:44:50   but eventually you need to become, essentially,

00:44:53   Microsoft Office and Exchange all rolled into one,

00:44:55   or you have to have the complete suite of things,

00:44:58   like that seems to be sort of the end game

00:45:00   of all these things that sell to businesses,

00:45:01   like you have to be able to have an email system,

00:45:04   a calendaring system, a document sharing system,

00:45:07   collaborative editing of word processing documents,

00:45:10   spreadsheets, cloud drive service,

00:45:13   a real time Slack style chat thing,

00:45:16   a thing that you use for teleconferencing and calls,

00:45:19   you need all of those things, and Microsoft has

00:45:22   all those things, and the things they didn't have,

00:45:24   they cloned, right, Slack has some of those things,

00:45:27   like I remember when Slack added video callings,

00:45:29   like video calling to Slack, it was like, of course,

00:45:31   of course, they need that checklist that I just went down,

00:45:33   everybody needs all of those things,

00:45:35   so if you're Dropbox, you're like, well, all I've got

00:45:37   is the cloud drive, I need to get a bunch of those things

00:45:39   right away, how many things can we start adding?

00:45:41   And so you take your folder that syncs,

00:45:43   and you start adding document search and collaboration,

00:45:47   and how long before Dropbox has something

00:45:50   where you can do video calls to each other,

00:45:52   it's only a matter of time, right,

00:45:53   either these companies get bought by one of those

00:45:55   other big things, like Google has a complete suite of that,

00:45:58   Apple sort of has most of that suite, albeit spread out

00:46:01   in a strange way, but really, it's between Google

00:46:03   and Microsoft selling to corporations,

00:46:05   and then Slack and Dropbox are like these smaller fish

00:46:08   that are around the side where, in general,

00:46:11   they have better products, like Slack is better

00:46:12   than Microsoft Teams, right, Dropbox is arguably better

00:46:16   than OneDrive or whatever, or what the hell

00:46:19   is Microsoft Things called, or Google Drive,

00:46:20   for that matter, or at least was, right,

00:46:23   but the people who are running these businesses,

00:46:26   is this a tenable long-term strategy,

00:46:27   can we just be like just the chat thing,

00:46:31   or just the drive thing, and the answer,

00:46:33   when it comes to businesses, probably not,

00:46:35   because the big companies are like, don't pay money

00:46:38   to Dropbox for them to do your cloud drive,

00:46:40   we have a cloud drive, and we'll bundle it

00:46:42   with Office and Exchange and all this other stuff,

00:46:44   and Office Online and blah, blah, blah,

00:46:46   like don't pay other vendors to, yes,

00:46:49   their product may be better, they wouldn't say that,

00:46:50   but their product may be better,

00:46:51   but look how much cheaper it is if you just buy

00:46:53   this one bundle that has everything from us,

00:46:55   and Dropbox can't offer that, they can say,

00:46:57   well, we can lower our price, but we can't give you

00:46:59   a bundle that does everything, we're trying

00:47:01   to win on quality, and if you try to win on quality

00:47:03   in the enterprise, that is not a winning strategy,

00:47:05   because we established before the definition

00:47:07   of enterprise software, the people who pay

00:47:08   for the software and select it are not the people

00:47:10   who use it, so your software being more desirable

00:47:14   for users means almost nothing in the enterprise,

00:47:16   all that matters is, does it do the things

00:47:18   that I need it to do, does it check all the checkboxes

00:47:21   for compliance and blah, blah, and how much does it cost?

00:47:24   And so the slow destruction of Dropbox mirrors

00:47:27   the slow destruction of Twitter, it's two companies

00:47:30   trying to be more than they started out as,

00:47:34   trying to find a way to make a viable business

00:47:37   that can be the unicorn that everyone thought they were,

00:47:39   and the only way to do that is to start adding features

00:47:42   that users don't want, but that in theory help you

00:47:45   to make more money, and whether that actually helps them,

00:47:49   whether Dropbox thinks they're gonna become a replacement

00:47:51   for the Google Suite or the Microsoft Suite, I don't know,

00:47:54   but it's clearly the path they're traveling,

00:47:56   and so it's, you know, like, Twitter is like,

00:47:58   are they gonna hit a breaking point where they make

00:48:01   their clients so bad that everybody leaves?

00:48:03   It seems like they hit the critical mass breaking point

00:48:05   that at least they have sort of a break even

00:48:08   to use Fusion Parlance reaction going on

00:48:10   where Twitter is not going to collapse under the weight

00:48:13   of their terrible clients, because if it was gonna do that,

00:48:15   it would have already, it still might collapse

00:48:16   under the weight of other things, but for now,

00:48:19   it seems somewhat self-sustaining and has gotten

00:48:23   probably as gross as it's going to get until the next,

00:48:26   you know, until they reach for the next big leap.

00:48:29   Dropbox, on the other hand, it's unclear whether them

00:48:32   slowly making their product worse for users

00:48:35   is something they can afford to do,

00:48:37   because there are a lot of competitors.

00:48:39   Some of them are platform owners, like Microsoft

00:48:41   has their built-in thing and Apple has its built-in thing.

00:48:43   If the competitors can reach competence,

00:48:45   it could be that Dropbox starts to fade before it can

00:48:49   get that critical mass of enterprise contracts

00:48:52   or whatever they're shooting for.

00:48:54   - It's bad, man.

00:48:55   I don't know, I just, the more I, the more time goes on,

00:48:58   and it's only been in the last, I wanna say year,

00:49:00   not even two years, but in the last year particularly,

00:49:02   they have just taken everything that I like

00:49:05   about the Dropbox client and ruined it,

00:49:07   and I think it's clear that, as you were saying, John,

00:49:09   I mean, I am no longer Dropbox's customer,

00:49:12   and so that's okay, but it's a real bummer,

00:49:16   and so I think my plan is to really push for myself

00:49:21   and my co-hosts, who are the people I most frequently

00:49:25   use Dropbox with, to all move to iCloud Drive

00:49:29   once we're all on Catalina, and that's reasonably

00:49:31   straightforward and easy to do, because in Catalina,

00:49:34   many people have noted, including Marco via Twitter,

00:49:37   that in Catalina, they are supposedly adding shared folders,

00:49:41   which is the one big thing that I think many of us

00:49:44   are actually missing from iCloud Drive.

00:49:48   Again, we're not missing a work chat or anything like that.

00:49:50   We're just missing the fact that we can't share folders,

00:49:53   and once we can share folders, then I think I'm gonna try

00:49:56   to phase Dropbox out of my life very, very aggressively.

00:50:00   - So the other options people have mentioned

00:50:02   is that you can use Dropbox through,

00:50:05   without having a Dropbox software installed.

00:50:06   Obviously, there's the web interface,

00:50:08   if that's what you wanna do, but also,

00:50:11   file transfer applications like Transmit

00:50:13   can interact with Dropbox, so you can just totally

00:50:15   uninstall the Dropbox software, not have to deal

00:50:17   with their software at all, and still be able

00:50:19   to essentially take advantage of the network effect

00:50:22   of like, oh, everybody's on Dropbox,

00:50:24   and we've always used Dropbox, so we can continue to use it.

00:50:27   So that's a possibility.

00:50:30   Having used, I think, every cloud drive thing,

00:50:33   I have to say that Dropbox still is the least problematic

00:50:36   in terms of actually making the files go to the place

00:50:41   where they're supposed to go successfully

00:50:42   with the fewest number of conflicts.

00:50:45   That's the kernel of reliability that is in the middle

00:50:49   of this giant cloud of nagging software,

00:50:52   and by the way, even when you are the customer,

00:50:54   like I'm not a business, and I use the personal version

00:50:56   of Dropbox, it is constantly telling me,

00:50:59   your Dropbox is almost full.

00:51:01   You wanna upgrade to more storage?

00:51:03   And there's no way to stop it from saying that.

00:51:06   Like, I know, I am close to my limit.

00:51:08   I understand I could pay more money for more storage,

00:51:12   but instead, I just want to sort of maintain

00:51:14   with this whatever 5% free space,

00:51:16   and yet the cost of having 5 to 10% free space

00:51:20   is just constant nags.

00:51:21   Like, you know, once every other day,

00:51:24   at least sometimes multiple times in a day,

00:51:26   it tells me, you're running out of space?

00:51:29   It's like, great, thanks, Dropbox.

00:51:30   I just love dismissing these dialog boxes.

00:51:32   And I'm, like, that's not an enterprise feature.

00:51:34   It's, it knows that I'm a person,

00:51:37   'cause the enterprise would just buy a huge amount of space,

00:51:39   and the enterprise version wouldn't bug the individuals.

00:51:41   It would bug, like, the administrator or whatever

00:51:43   would tell them that they're running out of space, right?

00:51:45   So even for it's just plain old individual users

00:51:48   using Dropbox, it's getting super aggressive

00:51:51   about, you know, trying to get me to spend more money.

00:51:55   And I say, no, I will just delete some files.

00:51:59   And that's what I'm saying.

00:52:00   I don't wanna delete any files.

00:52:00   Like, I think this percentage of free space,

00:52:02   I made that joke about it when Synology sent me an email,

00:52:05   and it said, you know, space on volume whatever

00:52:07   is getting dangerously low,

00:52:08   and there was only 500 gigs free.

00:52:10   Using percentages for free space,

00:52:12   it's not always the wisest thing.

00:52:13   And I understand things start to go badly

00:52:15   if you, you know, fill it up.

00:52:17   But, like, in terms of Dropbox,

00:52:19   it's a totally artificial limit.

00:52:20   I'm not actually filling a disk somewhere.

00:52:22   Even if I was 99%, I don't wanna hear about it

00:52:24   until I'm 100%.

00:52:25   That's when Dropbox can tell me my thing is full.

00:52:27   Until then, I don't wanna hear about it.

00:52:30   - We are sponsored this week by Hullo, Buckwheat Pillows.

00:52:33   I gotta say, Buckwheat Pillows are really cool.

00:52:35   They are totally different than the regular,

00:52:38   like, soft pillows that we are used to.

00:52:40   It's kinda like a bean bag full of these buckwheat hulls,

00:52:44   which I guess the size of them is like,

00:52:46   it's like almost like a marble size,

00:52:48   or a little bit smaller than that.

00:52:49   And so it allows you to adjust its shape and thickness,

00:52:52   and because it's bean bag-like, then it stays there.

00:52:55   So you can move and support it

00:52:57   however you want it to be supported,

00:52:59   you know, for your head and neck and whatever else,

00:53:01   and then it stays there.

00:53:02   It supports you exactly the way you want to be supported.

00:53:05   It doesn't squish throughout the night,

00:53:07   and it also doesn't really get hot,

00:53:08   which is great in the summertime,

00:53:10   'cause buckwheat tends to breathe better.

00:53:12   There's airflow that can get in there between the hulls,

00:53:14   so it really doesn't get hot or sticky or anything.

00:53:17   I gotta say, this thing is really cool.

00:53:19   It's totally different.

00:53:20   I had one for a little while, and then my wife stole it,

00:53:22   so now I have to get another one,

00:53:24   'cause she likes it a lot.

00:53:25   It's really incredibly supportive,

00:53:28   and you can also customize how it feels.

00:53:30   You can add or remove fill.

00:53:32   Like, you can just open up the side,

00:53:34   and you can adjust the thickness by adding or removing it.

00:53:36   You can also remove all the fill

00:53:38   so you can wash the case fully,

00:53:40   and they sell refills of the fill from their website, too.

00:53:43   This actually isn't that new of an idea.

00:53:45   People have been doing this for centuries,

00:53:46   the buckwheat pillows.

00:53:47   It was more popular outside the US, especially in Japan,

00:53:51   but now we're getting it here in the US.

00:53:52   It's really a more natural way to sleep,

00:53:55   and it's made in the USA with quality construction materials,

00:53:58   certified organic cotton case,

00:54:00   the buckwheat is grown and milled in the United States,

00:54:03   and there's fast, free shipping on every order.

00:54:06   You can sleep on it for 60 nights,

00:54:08   and if it's not right for you,

00:54:09   send it back for a full refund.

00:54:11   So go to hullopillow.com/atp.

00:54:15   If you try more than one,

00:54:16   you get a discount of the $20 per pillow,

00:54:18   depending on the size.

00:54:19   And once again, fast, free shipping on every order,

00:54:21   and 1% of all their profits

00:54:23   are donated to The Nature Conservancy.

00:54:25   This is a pretty cool company, hullopillow.com/atp.

00:54:29   That's H-U-L-L-O, pillow.com/atp.

00:54:33   Thank you so much to Hullopillow

00:54:34   for supporting my neck during sleep

00:54:36   and for sponsoring our show.

00:54:37   - All right, would you like to do some Ask ATP?

00:54:43   - Let's do it.

00:54:43   - We begin tonight with Josh Lewis, who writes,

00:54:46   "On what have you placed more stickers,

00:54:47   "your car or your iPad?"

00:54:49   And I thought that this kind of leads

00:54:51   to a perhaps more interesting corollary question,

00:54:53   which is, do you guys have any stickers on your cars?

00:54:57   So let me start with Marco, and I will go last.

00:55:00   Marco, do you have stickers on your iPad,

00:55:02   and do you have any in your car, and which one has more?

00:55:04   - So one question is, are we counting things

00:55:06   like registration stickers that have to go on the windshield?

00:55:09   - No, no, no, no, no.

00:55:09   - Okay, so if we rule out required stickers

00:55:13   for regulatory reasons, and parking permits,

00:55:16   and things like that, then I have one sticker on my car.

00:55:21   So I have a fish sticker on the back windshield,

00:55:26   right in the lower center part of it.

00:55:28   It is blocked from my view by the center rear seat headrest,

00:55:33   so it does not reduce visibility at all,

00:55:35   but it still advertises to the world that I enjoy fish,

00:55:38   and I kind of enjoy that.

00:55:40   That's the only sticker I have that's not a parking sticker

00:55:42   or registration sticker, and then on my iPad--

00:55:46   - Before you get to your iPad, you figure out

00:55:47   the other most important feature of that fish sticker.

00:55:51   It lets you pick out your Tesla among the 5,000

00:55:54   other red Teslas in the town where you live.

00:55:56   So when you go into the parking lot,

00:55:57   you're not lost in this maze of Teslas.

00:55:59   You're like, "Oh, there's mine.

00:56:00   "It's the one with the fish sticker."

00:56:01   - Exactly, it's all for practicality.

00:56:04   On my iPad, technically I have zero stickers,

00:56:07   because the one sticker that I have is not on the iPad.

00:56:10   It's on the keyboard cover.

00:56:13   - Oh, come on.

00:56:14   - On the keyboard cover is one sticker.

00:56:16   It is the Apple logo sticker, so it kind of looks

00:56:20   like an Apple laptop when we aren't using it,

00:56:23   like just right in the middle,

00:56:24   centered on the back of the keyboard cover,

00:56:26   but it's the sticker from the October event last fall,

00:56:28   which was my first invited press event,

00:56:32   and that meant a lot to me, and they gave special stickers

00:56:34   that were at that event, and it's one of those stickers.

00:56:37   - Is it upside down or right side up

00:56:39   when it's in the folded mode?

00:56:41   Which orientation did you go with?

00:56:43   - It is the modern version, so it's right side up

00:56:48   when it's up in use, when you see it from the back,

00:56:52   just as a modern Apple laptop would be.

00:56:54   - Yeah, they gave us a package

00:56:54   of something like five stickers.

00:56:56   I have one of those on the front of the keyboard cover.

00:57:00   If you're holding it in landscape, it's at the bottom left,

00:57:02   and mine is like a bluish and purple,

00:57:05   and like I said, they had given us a package of like five,

00:57:08   and I figure I'll just use them over time on iPads

00:57:11   or something like that.

00:57:13   John, what about your cars and iPads and things?

00:57:16   - Can I go out on a limb here and say zero on both?

00:57:18   - I would agree with you, but let's hear it for real.

00:57:22   - So I do have zero stickers on my cars,

00:57:24   also zero magnets, my wife tried to put a magnet on her car,

00:57:27   and I said, "We're not that kind of family."

00:57:29   You know the magnets, right?

00:57:31   - Like the ribbons and stuff?

00:57:32   - You see them, there's all sorts of ones.

00:57:35   I think the one she was trying to put on

00:57:36   was like a pet adoption one,

00:57:38   like after we'd adopted our dog or whatever,

00:57:39   but no, no magnets, no stickers, no, nothing on the car.

00:57:42   But I have to say, the first car I ever owned,

00:57:45   which I got from my parents, I did put a sticker on it.

00:57:49   When I sort of took ownership of it,

00:57:51   I put a very small white Apple logo sticker

00:57:53   on the back, you know, driver's side,

00:57:58   rear quarter window thingy, right?

00:58:00   And part of it was just like,

00:58:03   "Hey, I like Apple, blah, blah, blah."

00:58:04   But part of it was also to be able to identify

00:58:07   my white Honda Civic among the sea of other white Honda Civics

00:58:09   if I couldn't see both sides of it,

00:58:11   because you could easily pick it up

00:58:12   because it was the one without a passenger side mirror.

00:58:14   (laughing)

00:58:16   - Wait, I'm sorry, what color did you say it was?

00:58:18   - It's white.

00:58:19   - Really?

00:58:20   I don't know if we knew this before.

00:58:21   - Would you say that just happened to you?

00:58:23   - I mean, my mother actually likes white cars.

00:58:27   When she bought it at Acura Integra later,

00:58:29   she chose white again.

00:58:31   - Type R?

00:58:32   - Second, no, it wasn't, it was,

00:58:34   no, it was just the regular Integra.

00:58:37   Yeah, my brother got that car.

00:58:38   It was better than the Civic, but he totally destroyed it.

00:58:41   He left the sunroof open and let snow into the car.

00:58:44   This is the level of destruction we're talking about.

00:58:45   - Oh, God.

00:58:46   - That's pretty bad.

00:58:47   And that was later in life after,

00:58:49   and so, yeah, my iPad,

00:58:52   no, no stickers, I'm not a sticker person.

00:58:54   No stickers on my device.

00:58:55   I'm gonna ask Marco, is the sticker

00:58:57   that you put on your keyboard cover,

00:58:59   is it actually straight and centered?

00:59:01   I'm gonna guess no.

00:59:02   - It is straight.

00:59:04   If you eyeball it, it is straight.

00:59:06   It is not quite centered correctly.

00:59:09   - It can't possibly be straight.

00:59:11   This is the thing about the Apple logo.

00:59:12   You think it's easy to line up and make it straight,

00:59:14   but it's not a square.

00:59:16   It's like it's all wavy and curvy.

00:59:18   It's very easy to get it slightly crooked.

00:59:20   I'm going to guess that it is,

00:59:21   I mean, it's not as bad as Casey stickers,

00:59:22   which are just horrendously placed,

00:59:24   but it is really hard to actually get an Apple logo sticker,

00:59:28   unless you're laying it on top of,

00:59:29   this is what a lot of people do at work,

00:59:30   laying it on top of the one that Apple puts there,

00:59:32   which is straight and centered,

00:59:34   if you just have an empty field

00:59:37   on the back of a case or something,

00:59:39   trying to put the Apple logo visually centered

00:59:43   and also straight is basically impossible.

00:59:45   So, I mean, maybe it's off by an amount

00:59:47   that you don't notice, but don't look at it too closely.

00:59:50   - Got it.

00:59:51   So for me on my iPad, this is the first thing,

00:59:55   well, no, I stickered my work computer actually,

00:59:57   because it wasn't mine,

00:59:58   but this is the first device of my own

01:00:00   that I've stickered into Marco's point.

01:00:01   I haven't stickered the iPad itself, but rather the case.

01:00:04   I have 10 different stickers on the front of it

01:00:06   and three different stickers on the back of it,

01:00:08   including a white Apple logo, horrifically twisted,

01:00:11   not on purpose and horrifically off center,

01:00:14   also not on purpose,

01:00:15   to serve the same purpose as Marco had said.

01:00:17   So it looks kind of like a laptop when it's open.

01:00:20   On my car, I have the,

01:00:22   I don't know if you would want to call it like the outline,

01:00:24   but the shape of the Nurburgring in the back window

01:00:28   all the way down on the left.

01:00:30   I had the same basic thing on the BMW,

01:00:33   which I'd actually bought with Marco

01:00:35   at a little gift shop at the Nurburgring.

01:00:37   However, that went with the,

01:00:39   well, it was kind of falling off at that point anyway,

01:00:40   but it went with the car.

01:00:42   And so I just ordered a new one off Amazon

01:00:44   and I consider it okay to have that on the car

01:00:46   since I have, thanks to Marco,

01:00:48   driven the Nurburgring one time hilariously slowly.

01:00:51   So that is my situation.

01:00:53   Eric New writes, "You guys all seem to go

01:00:56   for 256 gigs of storage on your phones.

01:00:58   Do you come close to filling it?

01:01:00   I have tons of apps and podcasts

01:01:02   and I'm not even using 50% of 128 gigs.

01:01:05   I don't try to keep my whole camera roll on my phone

01:01:07   and I don't have any local music or videos.

01:01:09   So maybe that's it?"

01:01:12   For me, I believe I have something like, where is this?

01:01:15   This is in general, 80.5 gigs of 256 gigs.

01:01:20   And I always buy a little bit bigger phone

01:01:23   than I think I need just in case,

01:01:25   especially now that 4K video is a thing.

01:01:27   And isn't 4K at 60 frames a thing now?

01:01:30   - Yep. - So that gets real quick,

01:01:33   or real big real quick.

01:01:34   For me, I have 20 gigs of music

01:01:37   that I have pulled onto my phone, 10 gigs of photos,

01:01:40   and then a bunch of other miscellaneous

01:01:42   and boring stuff after that.

01:01:44   So I'm using, I don't know, what is this,

01:01:47   like a third of my 256 gigs.

01:01:49   Marco, you went first last time.

01:01:50   John, what's your situation on your phone?

01:01:52   - I saw this question earlier today.

01:01:54   I was like, "What are they talking about 256?

01:01:56   I don't get 256 gig phones."

01:01:57   But I wasn't entirely sure.

01:01:58   I'm like, "Do I get 256 gig phones?"

01:02:00   So I looked it up on my phone.

01:02:02   Sure enough, I have a 256 gig phone.

01:02:05   I'm pretty sure this is my first one that's ever been 256

01:02:08   'cause I never really went for the big storage.

01:02:10   I just couldn't stomach the cost upgrade.

01:02:13   But I've got one now apparently.

01:02:14   And I'm using 96.6 gigabytes, so 256.

01:02:19   And I'd been managing space on this,

01:02:22   thinking that I had a 128,

01:02:23   like I didn't wanna be creeping up on it.

01:02:26   I think the reason I have that in mind

01:02:27   is because I constantly fill my iPad.

01:02:29   My iPad is always full.

01:02:30   But my iPad is super old.

01:02:31   Like it's the original iPad Pro,

01:02:34   which is now several pros old.

01:02:36   And I think the iPad is 128 gigs.

01:02:40   And also I download video to watch offline frequently

01:02:44   if I'm gonna be going somewhere

01:02:45   and don't wanna have to deal with trying to stream it

01:02:47   over a bad internet connection.

01:02:48   And that fills up the space real fast.

01:02:50   Or like downloading movies from my Plex or whatever.

01:02:52   So it's very easy to fill my iPad

01:02:54   and constantly deleting big games that I haven't used

01:02:57   and managing my space.

01:02:59   But on my phone, apparently I've got tons of headroom.

01:03:01   So I should stop aggressively deleting stuff from Overcast

01:03:05   and just let those things fill up.

01:03:06   Overcast is my third largest app, by the way.

01:03:09   But it's only 12 gigs.

01:03:11   12 gigs of podcasts are on my phone.

01:03:13   - Marco.

01:03:14   - I have a very similar situation with both of you.

01:03:17   I do have the 256 gig phone.

01:03:19   I'm using about 76 gigs at the moment.

01:03:22   And so it feels weird.

01:03:24   But then like, so at first I thought,

01:03:25   well that was wasteful to get it.

01:03:26   But then I looked, I'm like, wait, was there a 128 option?

01:03:29   And it turns out, no there isn't.

01:03:30   Like the options are 64 or 256 or even more.

01:03:35   - No, that explains why I got 256.

01:03:37   'Cause 64 I would be way over the limit of.

01:03:39   - Right, so like a couple of phones ago,

01:03:42   whenever they offered 128, I did get 128.

01:03:45   But they don't offer that anymore.

01:03:47   So I think, you know, I knew that 64 would be

01:03:50   a little bit tight for what I wanted.

01:03:52   Sure enough, that was true.

01:03:54   So it does feel wasteful to have all this space

01:03:57   for a phone that I know I'm only gonna probably own

01:03:59   for a year and that I know for most of that year

01:04:02   I'm gonna be using less than half of it.

01:04:05   But the next interval down would have been too small.

01:04:09   So I see it as like, not that I spent $150 extra

01:04:14   to get to buy space I wasn't going to use,

01:04:17   but rather I spent $150 to not have to manually manage

01:04:20   any space ever during that year that I have this phone.

01:04:23   So it doesn't feel great that, you know,

01:04:26   I wish they would have offered a middle option on 128

01:04:28   and I would have gotten that

01:04:29   and it would have been less money possibly.

01:04:31   But the fact is, we didn't have that option.

01:04:33   So I took the next best one.

01:04:35   - Yeah, and I mean, I still think this is better

01:04:37   than having 16 or even 32 gigs be the base.

01:04:40   And then, you know, I'd much rather be a little grumpy

01:04:43   about going too high in the middle than being grumpy

01:04:47   about the lowest tier being effectively nothing.

01:04:51   So I don't think any of us are really complaining.

01:04:55   Finally, Sarah Ann writes, I'm a teacher considering

01:04:57   putting together a proposal for teaching computer science

01:04:59   as part of the International Baccalaureate at my school.

01:05:02   Program languages would be at my discretion.

01:05:04   Which ones do you think are the most valuable

01:05:06   slash important for modern students?

01:05:08   I have a really terrible answer for this,

01:05:10   so I guess I'll go last.

01:05:12   Marco, what do you think about that?

01:05:14   - There's always this dilemma between languages

01:05:18   that are easy to teach and/or languages

01:05:22   that demonstrate important computer science concepts

01:05:26   versus what languages are currently in use

01:05:30   in the practical world.

01:05:31   Because what the students probably want to learn

01:05:34   is whatever language they need to make cool stuff

01:05:38   that they can see in their current context.

01:05:40   Like, you know, on whatever devices people are using,

01:05:42   whatever platform people are using,

01:05:44   the current language is always in demand by the students.

01:05:47   What the professors usually want to teach

01:05:50   is something, you know, the more timeless concepts,

01:05:53   the more fundamental things.

01:05:55   So, you know, you might want to teach things like C

01:05:58   that are kind of like underlying all this stuff.

01:06:00   Or you might want to teach things

01:06:02   that have certain theoretical benefits,

01:06:05   like LISP, to teach functional programming,

01:06:07   or things like that.

01:06:08   So there's all these, like, competing factors.

01:06:11   But I think ultimately, for getting people started,

01:06:14   you need them to be motivated and to stick with it.

01:06:17   And so I would put to the side the value of things like LISP

01:06:21   and, you know, theoretical benefit languages.

01:06:24   Put that to the side, save that for, like,

01:06:26   year two or three of their education.

01:06:27   For year one, stick to things that will get them engaged

01:06:31   and will keep them motivated to keep going.

01:06:33   And that is whatever is required

01:06:35   to make the kind of things they want to make.

01:06:37   So right now, that's probably going to be,

01:06:39   in this order, Swift and then JavaScript.

01:06:42   - John, I assume Perl is the answer.

01:06:45   - My reading of this question is a little bit different

01:06:47   because it's a proposal for teaching computer science,

01:06:51   which is very different than a proposal

01:06:53   for teaching people how to program

01:06:55   or how to become programmers or anything.

01:06:57   - Oh, yeah.

01:06:57   - And so computer science is basically, you know,

01:07:00   basically a math course, practically.

01:07:02   And so then I would say, pick one of the languages

01:07:05   that has the least things

01:07:09   that are not important to the concept.

01:07:11   So when you're teaching computer science

01:07:13   and complexity theory and algorithms and data structures,

01:07:17   those things you could teach just with a whiteboard, right?

01:07:19   But you want them to have a program

01:07:21   that they can write it out.

01:07:23   Like, a lot of algorithm books will have, like,

01:07:24   pseudocode or whatever.

01:07:25   So basically what you want is the programming language

01:07:27   that is the most like pseudocode

01:07:29   so they don't have to worry about, oh, this is, you know,

01:07:32   like ideally you wouldn't have to worry about a type system.

01:07:35   Certainly you wouldn't have to worry about pointers.

01:07:36   You wouldn't have to worry about, you know,

01:07:38   native versus object, you know, primitives versus objects.

01:07:42   All sorts of concerns that are parts

01:07:43   of real programming language

01:07:44   but are not part of computer science, right?

01:07:47   Having to understand that, you know,

01:07:49   this is an int and that's a primitive

01:07:52   and this is an object and it's different

01:07:53   and they behave in this way.

01:07:54   Have to understand between pointers and references in C++.

01:07:57   None of that has anything to do with computer science.

01:07:59   So those make poor languages to teach computer science.

01:08:03   Arguably, like I said,

01:08:05   you could teach computer science without a language

01:08:09   and I've taken courses that are like that

01:08:11   where you don't touch a computer

01:08:12   but it is a computer science course.

01:08:14   But if you do want to touch a computer,

01:08:16   I would pick whatever you think

01:08:18   the best modern language is that has the least warts

01:08:24   that will surface when teaching algorithms

01:08:27   and data structures, right?

01:08:28   So Swift is actually good in that regard.

01:08:30   I've seen this, my son has been taking computer courses

01:08:33   and he's basically had to learn and use

01:08:36   at various times Python, Swift, Java and C++.

01:08:40   And despite the fact that Swift is itself

01:08:43   a very complicated and feature rich language,

01:08:45   if you're using it to learn data structures and algorithms,

01:08:48   you don't have to touch any of the weird stuff.

01:08:50   Like protocols are not going to come up

01:08:52   in a class teaching complexity theory, right?

01:08:55   It's just, you don't have to use it.

01:08:56   You just need like assignment, conditional,

01:08:58   loops, functions and if you're using Swift

01:09:02   to do those things, you do have to deal with type system

01:09:05   but type reference helps a little bit there.

01:09:06   You don't have to deal with pointers.

01:09:08   You don't have to deal with the strange warts

01:09:12   of types that can't contain a value

01:09:15   and all sorts of weird things that you have to deal with

01:09:19   in a low level language, right?

01:09:20   So I think Swift actually is a reasonably good language

01:09:24   to teach computer science.

01:09:25   You'll be using one tiny little corner of Swift.

01:09:29   Like Python might be similar, but honestly,

01:09:32   I think Python might actually have more weird warts

01:09:34   and strange things related to it than Swift.

01:09:37   So yeah, I think I'm basically gonna end up

01:09:39   agreeing with Marco but for different reasons.

01:09:41   That Swift is your number one

01:09:42   and the number two probably is JavaScript

01:09:44   'cause it's so pervasive.

01:09:45   It lets you ignore types.

01:09:47   JavaScript has way more warts in the basics than Swift.

01:09:52   Like the fact that all your integers are floats

01:09:54   and that are 53 bits long or whatever

01:09:55   and that will come back to bite you

01:09:57   and the weird semantics around truth and you know,

01:09:59   this JavaScript is a mess, right?

01:10:01   But it's ubiquitous and you can do

01:10:03   all sorts of fun things with it

01:10:04   and if you're just gonna do a bunch of algorithms,

01:10:07   you can do that in JavaScript as well.

01:10:09   I don't think, like the real answer is talk to other people

01:10:13   who are teaching a similar course,

01:10:14   what they're using and how successful it is

01:10:16   but coming from people who have never taught a course

01:10:18   in computer science but have taken them,

01:10:20   Swift and JavaScript seem like a good place to start

01:10:23   and maybe I would throw in Python as a wild card.

01:10:26   - You know, it's funny, my first answer to this

01:10:29   was JavaScript because it's the most pervasive.

01:10:33   You can use it on almost any platform.

01:10:35   It may or may not be elegant but you can do it

01:10:38   but hearing you talk, Jon, particularly about,

01:10:41   and I'm thinking about classes in JavaScript

01:10:44   which at last I've played with this

01:10:46   which has been a while to be fair is not really a thing

01:10:49   or it's so weird and esoteric.

01:10:51   - And you don't have to deal with classes at all

01:10:53   to do algorithm and data structures, you don't.

01:10:56   - That's true, that's true.

01:10:57   - Also, like comp sci, like intro to comp sci kind of stuff,

01:11:00   you wouldn't really even need to get OO stuff in there.

01:11:03   - That's a fair point.

01:11:04   So I guess, you know, and it's not Sarah's fault

01:11:06   because she was writing a single tweet

01:11:08   so goodness knows what the parameters are for this

01:11:12   but the way I read it was let me teach you the basic,

01:11:15   and I think this is because I'm reflecting on my schooling

01:11:17   in the early aughts, what's the basics of

01:11:21   object oriented programming because that was

01:11:23   all the rage in the early aughts.

01:11:24   Not to say that it's not a thing now

01:11:26   but it was like slightly newish kind of,

01:11:29   sort of and fancy at the time.

01:11:31   In the way that I think functional programming is now.

01:11:34   Functional programming isn't actually new

01:11:36   but it's just becoming trendy now.

01:11:38   Well anyways, so if you're trying to teach basics of OOP

01:11:42   then I would say either Python or possibly Swift

01:11:46   and if you're just trying to teach a person,

01:11:49   you know, more like what I suspect your son is dealing with

01:11:52   which is, you know, how can you write code

01:11:54   and this is kind of what I think Marco was thinking of.

01:11:56   I think JavaScript was my first answer

01:11:59   with Swift probably being second or third

01:12:02   and Python being the other one in the two, three category.

01:12:05   But now, I don't know, hearing you guys talk

01:12:08   I really wasn't gonna bring Swift to the top

01:12:10   and now I'm actually starting to think you're right

01:12:11   that Swift might be the best complete answer

01:12:15   as long as you don't mind hitching yourself to Apple's wagon.

01:12:18   - Well but the fact is like a lot of these students

01:12:20   will have Apple devices and it is very motivating

01:12:24   to be able to make something that you might actually enjoy

01:12:28   and be able to run and use on your own device.

01:12:31   Like that is incredibly motivating

01:12:32   and when you're at the introductory level,

01:12:35   keeping these students motivated and engaged

01:12:38   and getting them to like push forward

01:12:41   is so much more important than whatever specific things

01:12:43   you're teaching them because you have to like,

01:12:46   a lot of people dip into CS like as an experiment

01:12:49   or I might like this, I don't know.

01:12:50   And so you have to keep them motivated

01:12:53   to get a lot of them to stay

01:12:55   and to remain engaged in the course.

01:12:57   And so if it's something that they can like,

01:13:00   they can make code that runs on their phone,

01:13:03   they could make their own iPhone app,

01:13:06   which you know their phone is certainly likely

01:13:09   to be an iPhone, it isn't guaranteed for everybody

01:13:11   but it's certainly pretty high on the list,

01:13:13   then like that is, that has so much more value

01:13:17   than any individual concept that you might teach

01:13:21   in an introductory course.

01:13:23   - People dump on Swift a lot as a learning language

01:13:26   because it's like learning language, it's so complicated

01:13:29   and there's so many weird features and it's true,

01:13:31   it's a big language and getting bigger all the time

01:13:33   but I maintain that it actually is

01:13:35   a reasonable learning language

01:13:36   because the corner of the language that you need to use

01:13:39   to learn the basics doesn't have a lot of sharp edges.

01:13:43   Like strings work in a normal way,

01:13:46   numbers work in a normal way, functions look like normal,

01:13:51   there's not too much weird syntax

01:13:53   in terms of parameter parsing,

01:13:54   especially if you don't reveal the entire power

01:13:56   of the parameter system.

01:13:57   Like if you just stay in that little corner,

01:14:00   simple things really are simple, even the type system,

01:14:03   which is a complexity that you don't really need to deal with

01:14:05   to teach computer science, can be mostly hidden from you,

01:14:09   you just do basic things.

01:14:11   Even when you get into objects and stuff and structs

01:14:15   and like it's, in terms of all of the quote unquote

01:14:18   popular languages, it has the fewest weird things

01:14:22   if what you wanna do is simple and straightforward

01:14:24   'cause you're just learning.

01:14:25   Like you're not interested in learning Swift,

01:14:26   you're interested in learning computer science

01:14:28   and you're learning it through Swift.

01:14:29   It's the thing that used to be an argument for Python

01:14:31   but Python is old enough now that it has,

01:14:34   like I think Python didn't do a good job

01:14:37   of cleaning up its mistakes during its evolution,

01:14:41   like many of its sibling languages,

01:14:42   including Perl and Ruby and all that stuff.

01:14:44   They just kind of built stuff on

01:14:46   and then they did the Python two to three transition.

01:14:47   There's lots of weird warts in Python that to explain,

01:14:50   you have to be like, okay, well let me tell you

01:14:51   the history of Python and why this is like this

01:14:53   and we have a new way to do it

01:14:54   but the old way's still there and it works

01:14:56   and the new way's a little bit weird

01:14:57   because we couldn't interfere with the old way.

01:14:58   You don't have to make those explanations

01:15:00   for the most part with Swift.

01:15:00   It's part of the benefit of all the breaking they've done

01:15:04   of source compatibility over the years.

01:15:05   It's like, make a mistake, they're like erase, erase, erase,

01:15:08   try again, okay, erase, erase, erase, try again

01:15:11   and they're still towards the edges of the language

01:15:13   and the complexities.

01:15:14   It's you know, you know,

01:15:16   fiendishly difficult to understand all the nuances

01:15:18   but for the basics, you know,

01:15:21   it is, I think it is a pretty good learning language.

01:15:24   To give an example, my son was using it.

01:15:27   He wasn't using it to write anything having to do

01:15:30   with Apple platforms.

01:15:31   In fact, he was initially writing Swift into a webpage

01:15:33   and that webpage would compile it for you on the back end

01:15:36   and show you the result and it was like,

01:15:38   it was like doing a basic program.

01:15:39   You could take, you know,

01:15:41   text input from the terminal essentially

01:15:43   and you could print things

01:15:44   and that was in the introductory course.

01:15:46   All you would do is add numbers together,

01:15:48   make data structures, take input from the keyboard,

01:15:52   print values.

01:15:53   There is nothing Apple about it.

01:15:56   Like I said, it was in a webpage.

01:15:57   Eventually I got him to use Xcode

01:15:58   because doing your coding in a webpage is not ideal

01:16:02   but even though they're not using Apple devices,

01:16:05   there is still the benefit of saying,

01:16:07   oh and by the way, this is the actual language people use,

01:16:10   asterisk, asterisk, to write applications

01:16:13   for your phone and your iPad and like wow.

01:16:16   Like they feel like they're not wasting their time.

01:16:18   Like I know Swift and they don't know Swift.

01:16:20   Like they know a tiny corner of Swift

01:16:22   that have really no idea how to use it at all

01:16:24   and they don't realize that what you really need to know

01:16:26   to write phone apps is not the language but the API

01:16:30   which is so much harder to get your mind around

01:16:32   than the language but I think it has done its job

01:16:36   as a teaching language and apparently my son was telling me

01:16:39   that the AP computer science test is all in Java still.

01:16:43   So like you're faced with, I'm not sure what the,

01:16:47   again, the goal of this particular course is

01:16:49   but in the US anyway, apparently if you're gonna take

01:16:52   the AP computer science test, you better know Java

01:16:54   because that's what they're gonna test you on

01:16:55   which is kind of a shame because Java does have all sorts

01:16:58   of warts that are not relevant to the,

01:17:02   to computer science as a concept but are very relevant

01:17:05   to Java as a particular language and who cares about that?

01:17:09   - Yeah, Java is actually what I learned.

01:17:10   Like it was what my CS 101 and 102 were taught

01:17:13   in the year 2000.

01:17:16   That was the only time I ever used it for anything.

01:17:18   - I was learning on C++ and a couple of courses you see

01:17:23   but only a couple but I've never,

01:17:26   I don't think I've ever really written a line of Java ever

01:17:29   which is not necessarily by design

01:17:31   although I'm not complaining but it just kind of happened

01:17:34   that way 'cause again, I learned C++, a little bit of C,

01:17:37   actually took one course in C# which was extremely convenient

01:17:41   in a couple years into my career but no, I was all C++.

01:17:46   - You are not missing much.

01:17:48   - Oh yeah, I know I'm not and I mean C++ is a,

01:17:51   it's got so many problems.

01:17:52   I hear it's better these days just like Linux on the desktop

01:17:54   but oh, it's got so many problems.

01:17:56   - I heard recently that it's gonna get worse.

01:17:58   Like I mean, someone was telling me that the C++ 20 standard

01:18:03   is like this is the breaking point.

01:18:04   This is where C++ gets, it's just gonna go over the deep end

01:18:07   and jump the shark and I was like,

01:18:08   C++ has jumped so many sharks.

01:18:11   It jumps an entire ocean full of sharks.

01:18:13   (laughing)

01:18:15   The ship so long ago sailed on C++ becoming so complicated

01:18:19   that no one person can hold it in their mind.

01:18:20   Like that's so long and still in the context of C++,

01:18:24   C++ 20 has this reputation of being like,

01:18:27   oh, now they've gone too far.

01:18:29   So I can only imagine what is in that standard.

01:18:32   C++ is a great example of a language that is a victim

01:18:35   of its own success that they just keep adding things to

01:18:38   and it's just, you know, I really do hope for Swift

01:18:42   to be able to someday replace C++ because like,

01:18:46   let's reset the wart clock, you know what I mean?

01:18:48   (laughing)

01:18:49   Every language gets warts over time, right?

01:18:52   But there's no way to like fix a language like C++

01:18:55   to get rid of all those things 'cause that's just what it is

01:18:58   and I was telling my son like,

01:19:00   all those video games that you love to play,

01:19:02   they're all written unfortunately in C++

01:19:04   with some scripting thing in the middle there

01:19:07   for the parts that aren't performance critical.

01:19:08   But yeah, it's a giant wad of C++.

01:19:10   Destiny, the game I play all the time,

01:19:12   is the most famously complicated mess of C++

01:19:15   you could ever imagine.

01:19:16   There's a great GDC session where the Destiny developers

01:19:18   are explaining how Destiny works under the covers

01:19:22   and it is way more complicated than you think it is.

01:19:25   'Cause it has to be, 'cause if you look at the hardware

01:19:26   that it's running on, like everything has to be

01:19:27   multi-threaded, you have to use all those cores,

01:19:29   you have to use the GPU, like,

01:19:31   the inner world of a modern console or PC game

01:19:38   written in C++ is just like this incredible alien city

01:19:42   that you can't even imagine.

01:19:43   Like I imagine that someone who working on the core

01:19:45   of an operating system would look at a game like Destiny

01:19:47   and be like, run away screaming,

01:19:49   because it is so much more complicated

01:19:50   than something like an operating system kernel,

01:19:53   because it has to do so much more.

01:19:54   And because it's written, you know, not from scratch,

01:19:57   but nearly from scratch by a random collection of people

01:20:00   with strange opinions for a particular purpose.

01:20:03   And then, yeah, it's so different,

01:20:06   so much different than building a platform.

01:20:07   It's like, we're gonna build a game,

01:20:09   maybe the game will last 10 years,

01:20:10   maybe this code base will last 20,

01:20:13   but then we're all gonna move on to the next thing.

01:20:15   And so they end up being really weird.

01:20:17   Anyway, C++, we need a replacement.

01:20:20   I'm not sure if Swift is it, but something needs to be it.

01:20:23   - Oh, don't worry, Swift has taken all of the worst things

01:20:25   about C++ and adopted it.

01:20:27   It's made it new and clean.

01:20:28   - It hasn't though, you don't understand.

01:20:29   You don't know what the worst things about C++ are

01:20:31   if you think Swift has taken the worst of them.

01:20:34   - Thanks to our sponsors this week,

01:20:35   Squarespace, Hello, and Lumen5,

01:20:38   and we will see you next week.

01:20:40   (upbeat music)

01:20:43   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

01:20:45   ♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

01:20:48   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:20:49   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:20:50   ♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪

01:20:52   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:20:53   ♪ John didn't do any research ♪

01:20:55   ♪ Marco and Casey wouldn't let him ♪

01:20:58   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:21:00   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:21:01   ♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪

01:21:03   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:21:04   ♪ And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm ♪

01:21:09   ♪ And if you're into Twitter ♪

01:21:12   ♪ You can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S ♪

01:21:17   ♪ So that's Casey List ♪

01:21:19   ♪ M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M ♪

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01:21:30   ♪ It's accidental ♪

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01:21:37   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:21:38   ♪ Tech by casting so long ♪

01:21:41   - Oh, how is the, how is the, I don't know,

01:21:48   the swim plan going?

01:21:50   - I was in the ocean, but not further than chest level,

01:21:57   because the waves were too big.

01:22:00   And Tiff even suggested that was probably not a good time

01:22:03   to go further than that.

01:22:04   - Is she in the water with you?

01:22:07   - Not that time, no.

01:22:09   'Cause the waves were too big.

01:22:10   - Assuming she can swim and everything,

01:22:12   it would be a good idea to have somebody actually there

01:22:15   with you sort of directing where you should go

01:22:19   and what you should do at various times.

01:22:20   - Yes, so that was--

01:22:21   - So that we could have a more successful experience.

01:22:23   - Yes, that's the plan, and that's why I didn't go further

01:22:26   that time, because the waves were too big

01:22:27   even for her to want to go in.

01:22:29   So we decided we will wait for a better opportunity

01:22:32   where the waves are more calm,

01:22:34   and then we will go in together,

01:22:35   and she will show me what to do.

01:22:36   And then I got hit pretty strong by a wave

01:22:40   that she described as, that one was an under,

01:22:43   and I didn't go under it.

01:22:45   So I was very sandy after that.

01:22:50   - Small part of the experience.

01:22:53   - A lot of sand.

01:22:54   - You gotta know where to stand, when to dive underneath,

01:22:57   when to just go down, when to jump up,

01:23:00   where not to be in general,

01:23:02   all sorts of good things to learn.

01:23:04   And then once you get the basics,

01:23:06   you can learn how to do body surfing, which is fun.

01:23:08   - What is that?

01:23:10   - That's when you catch a wave,

01:23:11   but you don't have a surfboard, you've just got your body.

01:23:13   And it seems like a thing that shouldn't be possible,

01:23:16   and you'll try to do it many times,

01:23:18   it'll be like, I just feel like I'm flopping.

01:23:19   Eventually you will actually catch a wave,

01:23:21   and you'll be like, oh, that's how it's supposed to work,

01:23:25   and that's the fun experience,

01:23:26   the first time you actually catch a wave body surfing.

01:23:28   It's probably easier to do it on a boogie board or something.

01:23:30   But yeah, first learn how to survive the waves,

01:23:32   second, learn how to play in them,

01:23:35   'cause there's lots of fun things you can do.

01:23:37   So either get a boogie board or try to learn to body surf,

01:23:40   but they're both fun.

01:23:41   - Yeah, step one, learn how to not die.

01:23:44   - Yeah. (laughs)

01:23:46   Seems like a good step.

01:23:46   - Do you have a boogie board?

01:23:47   Do kids still call them boogie boards?

01:23:49   I don't know what you would call them otherwise.

01:23:50   - They do still call them that.

01:23:52   I don't have one, I mean, I could get one,

01:23:55   but I don't think I'm ready for that yet.

01:23:57   I think step one is like,

01:23:59   I mean, I've used boogie boards when I was a kid in the lake

01:24:02   as just like flotation devices.

01:24:03   - Yeah, no, it's different

01:24:04   when you're actually catching a wave.

01:24:05   - Yeah, never like in the ocean with real waves or anything.

01:24:07   So yeah, step one is like learn how to use the waves

01:24:10   and not die.

01:24:11   - Although it seems like to be,

01:24:12   I don't know if it's just because we're all big and fat now,

01:24:15   but there's like this epidemic

01:24:16   of boogie boards breaking all the time.

01:24:18   I seem to remember as a kid that you'd have a boogie board

01:24:20   and you'd use it summer after summer, it'd be fine.

01:24:22   And now as an adult, every time we get boogie boards,

01:24:25   like they last two trips to the beach

01:24:26   and then they're cracked in half.

01:24:27   Obviously we're buying cheap boogie boards,

01:24:29   but it's like even a cheap one

01:24:31   should like hold up a little bit longer than that.

01:24:33   I don't wanna buy a real quote unquote real boogie board

01:24:36   'cause they're expensive.

01:24:37   I just wanna buy a cheap toy thing

01:24:40   so you can have seven of them for all of the cousins

01:24:42   and we all go in and they use them

01:24:43   and then eventually after 40 minutes,

01:24:46   someone comes out of the ocean

01:24:47   with this floppy looking thing that's cracked in the middle

01:24:48   and go, "Well, this one's dead."

01:24:50   - I have learned like one thing

01:24:51   and I think I discussed it briefly last time,

01:24:53   but like my conception of what swimming is

01:24:58   is not what people seem to be doing almost ever in the water.

01:25:02   - What do you think it is?

01:25:04   - I think, well, what people seem to be doing in the water

01:25:06   is more like wading in and occasionally swimming

01:25:10   for a brief second and then standing back up again.

01:25:12   Or for me, like what I'm learning to do

01:25:15   is basically like do laps and exercise in a pool.

01:25:18   - Well, you have to be able to,

01:25:19   like you're talking about transport.

01:25:20   You have to be able to transport yourself.

01:25:22   So what you're learning is if I'm in the water

01:25:24   and I'm at point A and I wanna get to point B,

01:25:26   how do I do that?

01:25:27   So that's what you're learning, right?

01:25:29   But when you're playing in the ocean,

01:25:31   sometimes you need to get from point A to point B.

01:25:33   Sometimes A and B are very close to each other

01:25:35   and just repositioning yourself in the waves.

01:25:37   But mostly you're learning how not to drown.

01:25:38   So you're learning to tread water

01:25:40   and learning how to deal with the waves

01:25:41   and learning how to hold your breath

01:25:43   and not get tumbled around

01:25:45   and your water shoved up your nose and not drown

01:25:48   and not be pulled in by the undertow or whatever.

01:25:50   And sometimes during that activity,

01:25:52   you will need to actually transport your body

01:25:54   from one place to the other

01:25:55   and you will swim a short or medium or long distance.

01:25:57   And if it's a riptide, you may swim a long distance

01:25:59   to get back to short, right?

01:26:01   So you need to be able to do that,

01:26:02   but you're right that people aren't doing laps in the surf.

01:26:06   If you go beyond the waves,

01:26:07   you've probably seen this at the beach,

01:26:09   people do do laps back and forth parallel to the beach

01:26:12   beyond the breakers, which is a relaxing thing

01:26:15   that you can do when you get a little more experiences

01:26:17   to go out past the surf

01:26:18   and then watch the people playing in the surf

01:26:19   from the other side,

01:26:21   where you're just kind of bobbing them down.

01:26:22   You could just float there or you could do laps.

01:26:24   - To be fair, while I don't go to the beach

01:26:26   as often as some people do, I go maybe once a week,

01:26:29   but during actual swimming hours.

01:26:31   I go almost every day with hops,

01:26:33   but that's like pre or post lifeguard hours.

01:26:37   So there aren't a lot of people in the water.

01:26:38   But when I do go during full-blown daylight lifeguard

01:26:42   covered in sunscreen hours,

01:26:44   I don't think I've ever seen a single person

01:26:46   swimming laps in the ocean.

01:26:48   - I mean, it's not laps, you're just swimming.

01:26:50   - But just swimming,

01:26:51   I've never seen people do that in the ocean.

01:26:54   I see people do it occasionally in the bay,

01:26:56   frequently in the gym pool or the hotel pools.

01:27:00   - They might be out there super early in the morning.

01:27:02   Like when does Hockenberry do it?

01:27:03   That's the thing that he does.

01:27:05   It's actually easier to do than in a pool

01:27:07   because salt water is more buoyant than fresh water.

01:27:10   It's a little bit more relaxing, of course.

01:27:13   Anyway, it can be cold and windy

01:27:15   and all sorts of other reasons.

01:27:16   Obviously a lap pool is a more controlled environment

01:27:19   if you're just there to exercise.

01:27:20   But it's one of the things that some people like to do

01:27:22   when they go to beach.

01:27:23   Some people like to play in the surf the whole time.

01:27:24   Some people like to go past it and just float.

01:27:26   And some people like to go past it

01:27:27   and maybe swim back and forth two times, then come back in.

01:27:31   - I've definitely seen it.

01:27:32   - Ultimately, I'm really enjoying

01:27:35   the exercise part of swimming.

01:27:38   I mean, granted, I've known to swim now

01:27:40   for about a month.

01:27:41   So this is not a huge forever opinion probably.

01:27:46   But I really enjoy the exercise part of it.

01:27:48   Going back and forth, doing laps in the gym pool.

01:27:51   That's nice.

01:27:52   And I appreciate the aerobic and strength value of that.

01:27:56   But what most people seem to want to do

01:28:00   most of the time in the water doesn't appeal to me at all.

01:28:03   - Well, I mean, they're playing in the water, right?

01:28:05   So learning how to use a boogie board,

01:28:08   learning how to body surf,

01:28:10   or even just playing in the waves

01:28:12   and enjoying big waves coming and dealing with them.

01:28:14   Sort of like the waves are, it's like video games.

01:28:18   The waves are sort of waves of enemies or adversaries.

01:28:20   And sometimes they're little ones.

01:28:22   Sometimes they're big ones.

01:28:23   And you're just basically playing in the surf.

01:28:24   Playing in a part where it's not dangerous,

01:28:26   but where you constantly have to be

01:28:28   not doing battle with the waves,

01:28:30   but sort of like dealing with them, riding them.

01:28:33   It's just you're playing.

01:28:34   You're playing in the surf.

01:28:36   It's just this basic play.

01:28:37   And if that doesn't appeal,

01:28:38   you might want to go to the older people

01:28:39   who goes out past them, which itself is a fun game.

01:28:42   How do you get out past the surf

01:28:43   without getting tumbled

01:28:45   and having saltwater grow up your nose?

01:28:47   So that's a little skill section.

01:28:49   And then your reward is you get to be out past the surf

01:28:51   and relax and floating on your back in saltwater,

01:28:54   which is again more buoyant, can be relaxing.

01:28:56   You just hang out there and talk with the other adults

01:28:58   who are just hanging out there

01:28:59   or the old person with their swim cap or whatever,

01:29:01   whatever person in the ocean you want to become, Marco.

01:29:04   You can decide what you want to do.

01:29:06   And yeah, you can swim laps back and forth back there too.

01:29:09   But yeah, playing in the surf is worth

01:29:12   figuring out how to do and having fun with it

01:29:14   because it is kind of fun.

01:29:16   And eventually Adam,

01:29:17   you know, assuming he goes through some lessons

01:29:19   and all that stuff, will want to do the same thing

01:29:21   because kids love playing in the surf.

01:29:23   - He's actually, so this summer we have a rental house

01:29:26   that has a pool and he has loved it

01:29:30   and he has really taught himself a lot of swimming so far

01:29:32   and he keeps doing it and he's advancing pretty quickly.

01:29:35   So that's likely to happen quickly, I think.

01:29:38   In fact, he and I might be learning the ocean

01:29:40   at the same time over the next few weeks.

01:29:42   We'll see how that goes.

01:29:44   - Kids can be intimidated by,

01:29:45   like the pool's a good place to start and learn stuff

01:29:47   because depending on the kid,

01:29:48   they can be intimidated by the waves.

01:29:49   Like your experience of assuming you have gotten knocked down

01:29:54   by a wave and had salt water go up your nose,

01:29:56   that can happen to a kid once

01:29:58   and that could be like a three year delay

01:29:59   of like, all right, I will revisit this whole ocean thing

01:30:03   several years from now and I have forgotten this experience.

01:30:05   But some kids are like, that happens to them

01:30:07   and they just bounce right back.

01:30:07   So it really, really depends.

01:30:09   - Yeah, so anyway, I'm slowly getting there.

01:30:13   Making progress.

01:30:14   - Did you get salt water up your nose?

01:30:15   - No, actually I didn't.

01:30:17   - That's an essential part of the experience.

01:30:19   - I did, I got knocked down pretty hard

01:30:20   and I got sand everywhere.

01:30:23   - Yeah, that's part of it, but also the part of salt water

01:30:27   being forcibly jammed up your nose by the waves.

01:30:29   That's the thing.

01:30:30   - You're really selling it.

01:30:32   This is really--

01:30:33   - It's part of the experience.

01:30:34   Tasting that and spitting it out for the next 10 minutes.

01:30:38   You have to do it at least once or twice

01:30:41   to know what not to do.

01:30:43   It's like de-referencing a null pointer.

01:30:46   It's part of the experience of programming.

01:30:48   - Not in Objective C, am I right?

01:30:50   The thing that is most striking to me

01:30:54   about Marco's description of your ability

01:30:56   or inability to swim is that we met

01:30:59   at a lakeside community 20 plus years ago

01:31:04   wherein you had spent pretty much all summer every summer,

01:31:06   if I'm not mistaken, for most of your childhood

01:31:09   within 100 yards of water.

01:31:12   - Of the dirt beach in your mud lake?

01:31:13   - Yep, and I spent a lot of time in the dirt beach

01:31:16   in the mud lake, however, I was using flotation devices.

01:31:20   - Which is terribly dangerous.

01:31:21   If you don't know how to swim

01:31:22   and you're just out on a flotation device,

01:31:25   it's like stored up potential energy of death.

01:31:27   It's like, I'm fine, but if this flotation device

01:31:30   squirts out from under me, I'm gonna sink like stone

01:31:32   and die, which is not good.

01:31:34   - Well, there were other people around.

01:31:36   - Yeah, they would be able to fish your body out

01:31:38   pretty quickly, you're right.

01:31:39   - I would venture a guess to say that going in the ocean

01:31:43   with all of its giant waves and riptides

01:31:46   and jellyfish and sharks is way more dangerous than that.

01:31:49   - But like, once you can swim, I would recommend,

01:31:55   if you can't swim, don't go in the water

01:31:59   where you can't stand.

01:31:59   If you can't swim, don't go on the surf for sure,

01:32:02   but if you can't swim, even in a lake,

01:32:04   don't go swimming in a lake holding onto a floaty

01:32:07   out past where you can stand, 'cause what happens

01:32:09   if you let go of the floaty?

01:32:11   It's bad, people drown in lakes all the time.

01:32:13   The ocean, it's like, oh, I can see, I shouldn't go there,

01:32:16   that looks dangerous, and you're like,

01:32:18   oh, I got a floaty, I'm fine, you're not fine,

01:32:19   learn how to swim.

01:32:20   (laughing)

01:32:23   Marco was saved by the fact that he was just inside

01:32:24   of his computer the whole time.

01:32:26   - Exactly right, and I was there with him most times.

01:32:29   - Much safer, very, very low chance of drowning

01:32:31   in front of the computer.

01:32:33   - First of all, I didn't even own a computer

01:32:34   until sixth grade, and I wasn't allowed to bring it

01:32:37   to the lake for the summer until high school, at least,

01:32:40   like middle high school, so there was a lot

01:32:43   of time where I just had to just deal with it,

01:32:47   and I played in the water with my friends,

01:32:49   but I had a boogie board, or I had a life jacket,

01:32:51   or I had a floaty thing or whatever.

01:32:52   - Were you in over your head?

01:32:54   - Yeah, sometimes we'd go out on boats,

01:32:56   and we'd swim off the boats in the middle,

01:32:58   but then I would have a life jacket.

01:33:01   - Even then, I don't like the idea of people

01:33:02   who can't swim tooling around with life jackets,

01:33:05   'cause gotta be able to swim, gotta have that backup.

01:33:09   - Now I do.

01:33:10   - There you go.

01:33:11   - I just have very little experience,

01:33:13   so I still have a lot of things to do,

01:33:15   like to give you some idea of my skills so far,

01:33:19   like in the pool, I can go back and forth a lot.

01:33:23   I'm good with freestyle for a little while.

01:33:26   I can do backstroke for a long time.

01:33:29   I can do a breaststroke for a long time.

01:33:31   Yesterday, I finally figured out how to do a breaststroke

01:33:35   underwater and have the right breathing rhythm

01:33:37   to come up here and there.

01:33:39   That took me until yesterday to get that right.

01:33:41   I could do it above water indefinitely,

01:33:42   but to do down and up and down and up,

01:33:44   that, without just falling, that took a while.

01:33:48   - Yeah, a good thing to do in the pool

01:33:50   is to work on how long you could hold your breath,

01:33:53   so basically swim underwater back and forth in the pool

01:33:55   as many times as you can without coming up for air.

01:33:57   That's a good, safe thing to practice in a pool,

01:33:59   because if you get caught in the right kind of wave,

01:34:02   you may be under there for a while,

01:34:03   and it's good to be able to not panic

01:34:05   when you are not able to come to the surface

01:34:07   for a long period of time, and to know,

01:34:09   to have the confidence, like, it's not a big deal.

01:34:10   I can hold my breath here for 10, 15 seconds

01:34:12   before I reorient and get my bearings

01:34:15   and find the surface and go back up to it.

01:34:17   - Yeah, that sounds awful.

01:34:18   You're really not selling the whole ocean thing.

01:34:20   - It's fun to do in the pool.

01:34:21   Like, it's fun to see how many times

01:34:23   can you go back and forth in the pool underwater.

01:34:24   It helps you do those little flip kick turns and everything,

01:34:27   and it's a fun competition.

01:34:30   Helps build your lung capacity.

01:34:32   - Fun.

01:34:32   - That'll give you the confidence to say,

01:34:34   if I'm under the water, no big deal.

01:34:36   I hold my breath for a really long time, all the time.

01:34:38   I got all the time in the world.

01:34:39   I could be down here for a minute and a half.

01:34:42   - Yeah, but I think I'm still gonna avoid things like waves.

01:34:45   That sounds like I'm still gonna go

01:34:47   on like the super green flag day.

01:34:49   Like, I'm gonna wait until they put two green flags

01:34:53   in the pool, and that's what I'm gonna go.

01:34:55   - I mean, it's all the videos from the beach

01:34:57   that have been posted.

01:34:58   The surf does not look particularly rough there.

01:35:00   Like, it's not like Smith's Point or something.

01:35:02   I feel like it's a, I mean, obviously the weather

01:35:05   changes from day to day, but I think the shape of the beach

01:35:07   and the ocean currents and whatever,

01:35:11   it's not particularly rough, so you should have plenty

01:35:13   of good days to play.

01:35:16   [beeping]

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