0:00:00Before we do anything else, the rules of Syracuse Involved Podcasting state dictate,
0:00:06even, that you shall start with all--did you ever--did we talk about that on this show,
0:00:11the shall versus will versus whatever? When I was doing government contracting, whenever
0:00:15we wrote requirements documents, you knew a requirement because it said, you know, the
0:00:22software shall do x, y, or z. If will is not enough, the software shall do x, y, and z,
0:00:27and that's how you knew.
0:00:28Well, I guess that makes sense because will means like a prediction of what it will do,
0:00:32where a shall is like a dictation of what it needs to do. But what--
0:00:35I guess, yeah.
0:00:36Can you not just substitute the word must for the word shall? Like, how are those different?
0:00:41Maybe.
0:00:42You got to look at the internet, RFCs, you know, those things, those big documents, right?
0:00:46I believe they have a formal definition of will, shall, and must and all that stuff.
0:00:51I don't know if it's the same as the ones that you had to deal with, Casey, but it's
0:00:54definitely a thing.
0:00:55Well, I probably was. This was when I was working at a big, big, big government contractor.
0:01:00We were doing stuff for the Navy, so it was all of that happy horse manure. But anyway,
0:01:07I digress.
0:01:08So I just searched for must versus shall. The first result is a page on the FAA website,
0:01:14weirdly, but basically it says must and must not are words of obligation. Must imposes
0:01:22a legal obligation that something is mandatory. Must not is prohibited. But apparently, shall
0:01:28used to mean must, but these days shall is kind of understood now to mean may.
0:01:36Oh, interesting.
0:01:37And they advise that you go through and replace shall with must wherever you use shall to
0:01:42mean that, because must is unambiguous.
0:01:45I put a link in the show. It's the IETF one, the RFC one. It's got must, must not, should,
0:01:51should not, may, required, recommended, optional. It makes more sense than the one you were
0:01:57just reading, but it is the place where programmers are most likely to come across these particular
0:02:04important words because you'll be looking up something in some spec like the HTTP spec
0:02:08or the TCP spec or something, and you'll run across one of these documents and it will
0:02:11have these words in all caps and this is what they mean.
0:02:15I read the show notes several days ago as I was looking at something and the very first
0:02:20item of follow up, our show notes read as follows, "John's cheese grater broke." And
0:02:27because I'm a turd, I saw this and just cackled in excitement because I was like, "Oh, man,
0:02:32it finally..." Oh, wait, this literally means a cheese grater, doesn't it? So, John, tell
0:02:36us about your 10-year-old computer that's still chugging along and your silly cheese
0:02:41grater that I have used once and got shamed for it, by the way. I'm assuming this is the
0:02:46same one. Tell me about your cheese grater.
0:02:47It's a little learning curve for the cheese grater. My computer's fine. We talked about
0:02:52my kitchen stuff last show and I said, "Oh, it was like my cheese grater was on its last
0:02:55leg that I didn't know how many I had in reserve." It really was on its last legs because between
0:03:00that show and now, it finally did. The last little bit of plastic that was holding the
0:03:04little flappy thing on broke and it just came off. It's the same way they always fail. They
0:03:08fail, you know, like a crack starts forming. It just creeps its way up. I nursed this one
0:03:12for a really long time being very careful with the cracked plastic, but eventually it
0:03:16was dead. So now I know how many I have left. I unboxed a new one and I'm using that one
0:03:21now and I have one in reserve. So I had two left before this one broke. Now I'm on my
0:03:25second to last one.
0:03:27Oh, no.
0:03:28Yeah, and I think I'm going to put a thing on the calendar. I guess recording this podcast
0:03:33is one way to do it because I want to know how long do they last. I don't really pay
0:03:36attention, but now I have a recorded version. So when this next one breaks, I'll be able
0:03:39to do the date math between now and then and know roughly how long these things last.
0:03:44The real question that everyone wants to know is did you purchase for $75 a replacement
0:03:49to your favorite spatula?
0:03:50I did not. It was black only. I couldn't overcome that. I don't think I would have gotten it.
0:03:56Like I said, unlike the cheese grater, the spatulas continue to function seemingly perfectly
0:04:01like there is nothing wrong with them other than slight discoloration from food sticking
0:04:06to it. But other than that, I don't foresee them breaking in any way. So I don't need
0:04:11to have a giant supply. Unlike, for example, Apple Extended Keyboard 2 or whatever, if
0:04:16you're using something that's going to wear out, keyboards wear out, albeit slowly. These
0:04:21cheese graters wear out way too quickly. Spatulas, they just last forever, kind of like this
0:04:25Mac Pro.
0:04:26They just slowly leach plastic into your food forever.
0:04:29It's not leaching plastic. We established this.
0:04:33I found the post on Instagram that I put up 289 weeks ago on December 21st of 2013 where
0:04:40I attempted to shred some mozzarella, which I'm sure I butchered that pronunciation. I
0:04:45tried to be Italian. But anyway, I shredded some mozzarella and John absolutely mercilessly
0:04:50shamed me for it.
0:04:52This is a different cheese grater. This is the box grater. This is like pizza cheese.
0:04:56Jeez, Casey, what are you doing?
0:04:58My mistake.
0:04:59Totally different. How would I break that thing? That one we still have. And again,
0:05:05unlike the cheese grater I'm talking about, I don't foresee it breaking.
0:05:10What cheese grater did I use for this then, if not a box grater?
0:05:12A box grater, a metal box grater.
0:05:14So what are you talking about then?
0:05:15I'm talking about the thing I use to grate Parmesan cheese, which I do frequently because
0:05:19it's a staple in the household. And it is an Oxo.
0:05:22Is that like a sword?
0:05:23No, it's an Oxo model they don't make anymore, probably because it has a failed flaw and
0:05:28it breaks that for a couple of years. But it's so much better than the model they
0:05:32ship now. The model they ship now is like, I don't know, just Google for like Oxo rotary
0:05:37cheese grater. You'll see the current model and the current model is terrible. This old
0:05:42model is genius other than the fact that it breaks eventually.
0:05:45Oh, is this, oh, this is the thing that they bring around at like Olive Garden, isn't it?
0:05:49No, not quite. I mean, are you looking at the current one? I mean, put a link in the
0:05:53chat.
0:05:54This is one of the options and this looks to me like what I would find at an Olive Garden.
0:05:58Yeah. So that is, that is the current model and it is no good because if you try, if you
0:06:02grate a lot of cheese and you try using that, your hands will hurt. It is not good. You
0:06:06don't have good mechanical advantage because as you squeeze that handle, the, the pressure
0:06:12on the part that is pressing down on the cheese is less than your, than your hand. Like you're
0:06:17using a lever, but in reverse, right? It's like squeezing way down at the end, the force
0:06:22at the tip of that lever is less than you're squeezing down there. So it is mechanical
0:06:26disadvantage. No good.
0:06:29So and what is yours? Can you link to yours?
0:06:31I just put something in the chat. Is that the correct thing?
0:06:34Yep. So that's mine. So that one, you can't really see in the picture, but so that cylinder,
0:06:40like it opens up along that hinge. Do you see the hinge thing there? It opens along
0:06:44the hinge and the thing that is, you know, it's got a very, very thin curve piece of
0:06:49plastic that sort of keeps the cheese in. So you open it up and then you can slide the
0:06:53cheese down. Like the metal cylinder is going up and down. You, you slide the cheese down
0:06:57next to the metal cylinder and you squeeze the cheese against the cylinder with your
0:07:02entire hand. Like you are directly pressing it against the cylinder and then you rotate
0:07:06the thing. So you basically, you put one hand around the cylinder and then the crank on
0:07:10top, you turn. It's still kind of difficult to do, but it is pretty much as good as you
0:07:15can get in terms of, I mean, there's no mechanical advantage to squeezing, but there's no mechanical
0:07:20disadvantage and the turning thing is good. Inside it is a cylinder with very, very small,
0:07:26widely spaced holes to get a good, you know, part of cheese grade going there.
0:07:32So why couldn't you find like a reasonable facsimile of this? So for example, I put a
0:07:36$13 item in the show, in the chat room, which seems to me like it is roughly the same thing
0:07:42you're discussing.
0:07:43It's totally different. What are you talking about?
0:07:44Why is it totally different? It's a vertical thing.
0:07:45Look at this little knob. Look at this little plastic, uncomfortable knob. It has to be
0:07:49big, round, you know, grippy, oxo, rubberized, like that's the whole point of the thing.
0:07:56And I don't even know how, where the cheese goes in this thing or how the gripping would
0:08:00be and like that big protrusion coming out of it. You can't grip it from multiple angles.
0:08:03Look at the second picture. It shows exactly what happens.
0:08:05Yeah, no, that's no good. Like I don't understand what that big orange thing is sticking out
0:08:10there. Now you can't grip it, like you can't grip it from any angle because it's not a
0:08:14cylinder. It's a big protrusion thing. And also the holes, that's not the right, the
0:08:18metal cylinder, that's not the right shape for the grading. The holes in this thing are
0:08:22very small.
0:08:23I just buy pre-graded Parmesan cheese and it's awesome.
0:08:26That is the most Marco answer I've ever heard.
0:08:28Also, pre-graded costs even more money, first of all. But second of all, whatever machine
0:08:34they have, like in Whole Foods that grades it for you, grades it too fine for my taste.
0:08:38It's like tiny pieces of hair. It's too wispy. I want one step up from that. I like the texture
0:08:45the OXO makes. I don't know what I'm going to do. I mean technically when I'm saving
0:08:49the bodies of these things, so when they all die, in theory, I will have the raw materials
0:08:56to make some kind of Frankenstein cordless drill powered. I want an electric one. I don't
0:09:02know how to do this by hand at all. I like just an electric one. All I need is something
0:09:06that can turn with lots of torque but not too quickly and then I can just shove the
0:09:10cheese down into. I might go all steampunk on this eventually.
0:09:17What is it? We have the technology. We can build it? Something like that?
0:09:19Yeah, for the next, let's say, three and a half to six years, I think I'm good on
0:09:23my – I'm assuming these last like maybe three years. Maybe I'm really wrong about
0:09:27that. Anyway, we'll find out.
0:09:29Can you commission somebody to like custom mold you a replacement?
0:09:33Yeah, like 3D print it. You can do anything with a 3D printer.
0:09:36Yeah, can you hire like a maker?
0:09:38No. I mean, I should show you this. I look at it. It's amazing how unrepairable it
0:09:42is because it's a tiny flat piece of plastic connected. It's like glued in. You can't
0:09:50fasten it any other way because for the cheese grater to work, it has to close completely.
0:09:56You have to be able to close that thing down completely. For like the last little bit of
0:09:58cheese, you have to basically get that cylinder so that it is basically the plastic is basically
0:10:02touching the metal thing. Otherwise, you end up with that part of cheese that you can never
0:10:06press against the grater, right? It has to close completely, completely, which means
0:10:10that it has to be like a perfect – it has to be just the little C-shaped thing with
0:10:15a flat plastic flap coming directly out of it. If you tried to attach it with any kind
0:10:20of glue or fastener or anything to strengthen it, it wouldn't close all the way and now
0:10:24you've got basically a non-functional grater where you can never grate that last little
0:10:28bit of cheese.
0:10:29It's not a good design. They kind of messed up, but what they replaced it with is worse.
0:10:35I might just have to go and look on eBay and see if I can find some more of these.
0:10:39I just didn't. I didn't come up with anything in first research.
0:10:42I think I bought like five or six back when I bought them and maybe that wasn't enough.
0:10:48You cornered the market.
0:10:49Yeah. And none of them were $75. Let me tell you, they were all like $12 each.
0:10:54I just can't wait for some listener of this show either now or in like four years goes
0:10:59digging through their junk pile and realizing they too have a cache of vertically oriented
0:11:04OXO cheese.
0:11:05They're going to have a cache. They're going to have one and it'll be broken because they
0:11:08break.
0:11:10Oh, man. I am very happy that I am not this particular about my tools. Remember this when
0:11:18we have a two-hour conversation about my computer.
0:11:20I'm sure I wouldn't be as particular, A, if I didn't have RSI and B, if I didn't eat quite
0:11:24so much Parmesan cheese, but unfortunately, both of those things I'm afflicted with.
0:11:30I'm so sorry.
0:11:31Can you get a mechanical grater or an electric grater of some kind? Do those exist for home
0:11:37use?
0:11:38That's what I'm saying. I would like to get something that is not powered by something
0:11:42other than my hands, but I haven't found one that does the job. Lots of people recommend
0:11:46food processors. I have many food processors. I have big ones and small ones. The problem
0:11:49with most electric things is they go too fast and/or the holes are the wrong size. Going
0:11:54too fast is bad because then you get heat and friction. You can't have any heat. You
0:11:57have to basically turn it like at hand speed. You don't want to produce any heat. You just
0:12:01want to grate the cheese slowly.
0:12:05And then the hole size. The holes on this thing are very, very small. Smaller than the
0:12:10smallest side of a box grater, but the same shape as the big side of a box grater, like
0:12:15the little inverted grater.
0:12:18What do places like Whole Foods use? Just a big thing?
0:12:22They must have a machine. Obviously, it's probably not someone back there doing it by
0:12:25hand. Or if they do have a machine, it's probably with a really big crank, like a meat grinder
0:12:29size machine. I don't know what they use, but it's way too fine for me. They might use
0:12:32like, you know the puckered side of a box grater, where it's like a cross is cut in
0:12:39the metal and then the four triangles are pushed out a little bit?
0:12:41I think so. Where it's like a slicing edge?
0:12:44No, it's like I said, make a picture of a piece of metal and now cut a plus sign in
0:12:50it. And now press on the plus sign from the inside so that the four little triangles formed
0:12:57by the plus sign bend outward into a little pyramid?
0:13:00I've never seen this.
0:13:02Oh, oh, are you talking about the handheld, sortie looking thing?
0:13:05Oh my god. Chat room, tell me I did not describe this exactly correctly.
0:13:11Are there just one of those on the side or are there like a whole bunch?
0:13:14A whole bunch.
0:13:15I think I know what you mean, but I've never used that before.
0:13:18Anyway, I think they might be using something like that, but whatever they use, it makes
0:13:20it incredibly fine. I mean, you know, it's very wispy. It's not bad, it's just not particularly
0:13:25to my taste, so I prefer it a little bit bigger than that.
0:13:29Just use more.
0:13:30It's not, that's not, it's a texture thing. A microplane, that's what I'm thinking of.
0:13:35I'm thinking of a microplane.
0:13:36Microplanes are awesome.
0:13:37No, it's not a microplane. The cost of like pre-grated parmesan cheese is so expensive.
0:13:42Like pre-cut anything at Whole Foods.
0:13:43Well, yeah. So since everyone will tell us, is there a reason you don't use a microplane
0:13:48style grater?
0:13:50It doesn't make the right shavings. I have a microplane grater. It doesn't make it the
0:13:55right, it's not how I like it.
0:13:57I guess you're stuck.
0:13:58Yeah, I'll say. I've got a couple years on the clock yet.
0:14:02We hope.
0:14:03Yeah.
0:14:04Oh, man. You know, just earlier today, I think it was, I listened to 99 PI and they were talking
0:14:11about how we're going to eventually run out of sand. And I don't think that I personally
0:14:17have to worry about that, but I am very worried, Jon, about when you run out of cheese graters.
0:14:23Speaking of the ambiguity, this cheese grater computer has outlived many of those plastic
0:14:29actual cheese graters. So it's clearly the king of all cheese graters.
0:14:35Something like that. All right. Also in the show notes for follow-up, deviation from the
0:14:39Ive design philosophy. This sounds like a Jon thing to me. Tell me what's going on here.
0:14:45I was thinking more about our discussion of Jonny Ive from last week and with his sort
0:14:51of philosophy potentially exiting the company with him. We'll see what changes in the design
0:14:58of stuff that comes out. But one way his design has made itself known is it extends everywhere.
0:15:09So I was thinking of the Apple mouse that I think Marco is using right now, or maybe
0:15:13you too, Casey. The mouse that should. And I was thinking about it because of the magic
0:15:16mouse.
0:15:17The magic mouse?
0:15:18Yeah, because I was having dark thoughts about like, who is it? It was because Marco, someone
0:15:22sent both of us that third-party monitor.
0:15:25Yeah, the planar IX, whatever. Yeah, we've seen it before. I don't think Macs can easily
0:15:30drive it. It has those giant bezels and everything. Who cares?
0:15:34Yeah, someone was saying it's basically like a 5K display right from an iMac, complete
0:15:39with the little hole for the camera, but there's no actual camera there in the glass bonnet
0:15:43surface. Anyway, I was having dark thoughts about it like, "I can't believe Apple is going
0:15:47to sell you a computer and then the only option is the $7,000 monitor or whatever, and they
0:15:52don't sell monitors." It would be like if they didn't sell a mouse and a keyboard. But
0:15:55they do sell mice and keyboards, and you can buy them with your computer. You can even
0:15:59pick which one you want. And they continue to make them, despite the fact that it's much
0:16:03easier to find a reasonable replacement mouse or keyboard than it is to find a reasonable
0:16:08replacement monitor.
0:16:10And so I was thinking about their peripherals. Obviously, the keyboard at this point, all
0:16:15of the margins are tucked in on the thing. It's basically just a bunch of keys floating
0:16:20in space. How are those keys even there? Is there any space around them and between them?
0:16:25It's just keys. It's really boiled down to its essence again, the Johnny Ive philosophy.
0:16:30But the mouse I was thinking about, it fits with the Johnny Ive era design aesthetic.
0:16:41Because there are different ways a mouse could be designed. I think we had a show on the
0:16:45past where we had that diagram of all different ways people can hold a mouse. And it's not
0:16:49like the Apple mouse is designed badly, but it is designed for a particular way of using
0:16:55it. It's a very low mouse. And some people like a low-profile mouse, and some people
0:17:00like a bigger thing that fills your palm. Microsoft has always made very large mice,
0:17:07not just for that matter, they're made for you to grip under your entire hand and it's
0:17:12going to be pressing up against the back of your palm, gripping. Whereas the Apple one
0:17:16is very slim and very low, very minimalist. If you put it next to Apple's computer, it
0:17:21looks like it fits. It's next to that keyboard, it makes sense. Obviously, there's no cord
0:17:25on it. It's almost featureless, looks like a flattened piece of sushi. You look at it
0:17:31and it looks like a little piece of art. And I was thinking with I've gone, if Apple's
0:17:37design philosophy changes a little bit, how far would be too far? And I was thinking even
0:17:43in terms of the mouse, because if Apple came out with a new mouse, which they do once every
0:17:49– what are they on a decade plan now? Once every decade and a half they come out with
0:17:52a new mouse, which is not unheard of. Apple does occasionally come out with new mice.
0:17:57Imagine if it was more of the shape of a Microsoft mouse or a logic mouse. Not in terms of the
0:18:05details but in terms of it's no longer a super low profile mouse. I would say for my
0:18:11style of mousing, it would be more ergonomic for me. I don't like them to be that low
0:18:14because that's not how I hold the mouse. If you make a low one, the people who want
0:18:18a high mouse aren't going to like it and vice versa. So it's not like it's an incorrect
0:18:21or correct choice. But say Apple did make one, it was still beautiful and Apple detailed
0:18:26and it still looked like an elegant piece of art. But it was basically fatter. It was
0:18:31the fat mouse to go with the fat man. It was bigger and fatter and it filled your hand.
0:18:36It would be less elegant and less minimalist and less simple because if you could make
0:18:41a mouse slim and low, why would you make it big and fat? Kind of the same way with the
0:18:46remote. If I can make a remote the size of a piece of chewing gum, why would I make it
0:18:49bigger? And the answer is obviously because human hands are big and chewing gum is small.
0:18:55Anyway, setting aside the remote for now. There's an argument to be made in the mouse
0:18:59that if you made it bigger, it might be easier for people to grip and find and use and manipulate,
0:19:04blah, blah, blah. But if Apple did that, people would look at that fat mouse kind of like
0:19:09the fat man and go, "Boy, Apple really needed Johnny Ive because he left and they made this
0:19:14disgusting mouse that looks like a Microsoft mouse. It looks like a Logitech mouse. It
0:19:19doesn't look like an Apple mouse at all." What I'm driving at is the design philosophy
0:19:27evidenced by Apple's product during the Johnny Ive era has become so synonymous with Apple
0:19:32because he's been here so long and has such an important influence on so many important
0:19:36products, that that's what people think of as Apple-like. So even if Apple, the company,
0:19:41makes a Microsoft-style mouse and even if it's a great mouse and people love it, they're
0:19:46going to look at it and say, "Ugh, that's not like it was better when Johnny Ive was
0:19:51here because look how inelegant this looks. Look how bloated it looks. Look how silly
0:19:57and comically large it looks. The Ive mouse was elegant and this is not."
0:20:05And I think that would be a shame because although the design philosophy embodied by
0:20:10Apple's current products and its past products for many years is a great one, it is not the
0:20:14only one, the only reasonable design philosophy, especially when it comes to peripherals. So
0:20:19I feel like our hope for the remote and maybe external keyboards and possibly mice, depending
0:20:26on how you feel about the current one, hinges on the public's willingness to accept anything
0:20:32that is not in line with the Johnny Ive minimalist essentialism design aesthetic. And I'm afraid
0:20:38that even if Apple makes a great product but it's not a sort of a Zen garden sculpture
0:20:47beautiful Ive-style thing that they're going to get backlash for it and I think that would
0:20:51be a shame.
0:20:52Well, we do see bits and pieces of pragmatism over appearance peeking through here and there.
0:21:00One of the great examples in recent years are the iPhone smart battery cases, which
0:21:05by all objective accounts are kind of ugly. They have that weird hump on the back. The
0:21:10first generation had the weird centered mid-hump and the current generation has the weird bottom
0:21:16hump, which I think is even uglier. But they do that for a few highly functional reasons.
0:21:23And we all did make fun of it when it came out, but it's actually a pretty reasonably
0:21:29successful product as far as I can tell. We've owned a couple in our household and they're
0:21:34good products. And Apple, it seems, was willing to make that trade-off. Like, look, we can't
0:21:39make this beautiful and have it still function the way it needs to function. So they just
0:21:44didn't make it beautiful. They kind of did the best they could with what they had to
0:21:47work with and it came out. And it's a very useful utilitarian product.
0:21:52I think looking at the new Mac Pro case, it is not attractive. It's worse in pictures
0:21:59but it's also not attractive in person. It's very much a utilitarian design. This is a
0:22:04big tower with a bunch of weird holes in the front. It's giant, it's heavy, it's bulky,
0:22:09it's weird looking. But it's all those things for utilitarian reasons. And for the customers
0:22:14who need that and who buy that, the utility of it is more important than the aesthetics.
0:22:19And so clearly, like Apple, even before I've officially left, Apple is able to occasionally
0:22:27let that peak through. And it seems like maybe in recent years they're regaining their, what
0:22:34I would describe as, confidence to ship something that doesn't look incredibly pretty but is
0:22:39that way for functional reasons. It takes a certain degree of confidence to do that.
0:22:44Like they have to be able to ship something like with a straight face that they know many
0:22:50of us are going to say, "Ew, that's ugly." Because they have to be competent enough in
0:22:53their design to be like, "No, look, we know it's ugly but it is this way for reasons.
0:22:58It was a trade-off and this is what came out." And so I don't think it's that unreasonable
0:23:05to predict that maybe they'll be doing more of that. Maybe they have kind of seen the
0:23:11light and have gotten enough customer feedback and enough sales data and everything over
0:23:15the last few years to be able to revert certain decisions. Clearly the Mac Pro is one of the
0:23:20biggest examples of that. We'll see and we'll talk about later what might be happening with
0:23:24laptops in that department. But I think Apple had a really rough period where a whole lot
0:23:34of decisions were being made for aesthetics over utility. And we told them about it over
0:23:39and over and over again and their customers told them about it over and over and over
0:23:43again in some of these cases. Their repair data told them about it. And I think there
0:23:49was a bad period that we are clearly on our way out of, that we're already partially out
0:23:53of it and it seems like there's more to come. So I don't think it's that unreasonable to
0:23:57expect that we actually would have a chance of something like a more ergonomic mouse.
0:24:02Honestly I like the mouse just fine but I recognize a lot of people don't. So I think
0:24:07we do have a chance of stuff like that. I think we do have a chance that the next Apple TV
0:24:09remote might be more ergonomic for instance. I think we were in a dark period but Apple
0:24:17has clearly shown recently that they are willing to put utility first with some of their new
0:24:23designs sometimes.
0:24:24That's why I was entertaining the possibility because it seems like it is a possibility
0:24:28but I think they'll get backlash. And I guess now that I think about it, it actually is
0:24:32mostly focused on, you know, if you're thinking of cheese graters and OXO and all this stuff,
0:24:38on things that you grab with your hand. There aren't many of them. Obviously the phone
0:24:42itself is a thing that you grab but there are limitations there where you can't really
0:24:46make it strange and knobbly because it does have to fit in pockets and there are other
0:24:49concerns about it. But for peripherals, like for remote controls, for keyboards and for
0:24:55mice, for things that, like it's your interface to the computer, you know, indirect controls
0:25:00that you grab. Kind of like controls in cars, the steering wheel, the shift lever, the turn
0:25:05socks, all that other stuff. Anything that you manipulate with your hands to make the
0:25:09stuff work, it's the place of highest tension between making something look beautiful, so
0:25:17it looks nice in your product shots, and so when it's in a museum 50 years from now,
0:25:20everyone oohs and aahs. And making something that's good to use with your hands. And there's
0:25:25not much of an intersection there. Like it's why OXO products tend to look so ugly, right?
0:25:31Because you know, the things that are easy and good to grip and manipulate tend not to
0:25:39be beautiful minimalist sculptures. Like those are slippery or slim or pointy or don't, you
0:25:45know, don't match the negative space created by a gripping hand, because the negative space
0:25:50created by a gripping hand is ugly, as you know if you grab a lump of clay and squeeze
0:25:53it real hard and then open your hand and look what's left. It's not a beautiful sculpture,
0:25:57but that's the inside of your hand. So I'm not saying a mouse has to look like a giant
0:26:03snail turd like many of them do, but there are multiple styles of mice. You could make
0:26:09a fairly elegant mouse in a different style that is more of the hand-filling kind, but
0:26:14I feel like if Apple did that, there would be a surprising amount of backlash, especially
0:26:19given that like people would get used to it and everyone used mice like that and it would
0:26:22be fine. It would be better for the half of the population likes it one way and worse
0:26:26so that people like it the other way. But all you would hear about is how Apple made
0:26:29an ugly mouse.
0:26:31I do think it's worth noting though that, and I think I speak for both of you, that
0:26:35we're not going to see, you know, like a pendulum swing dramatically the other direction. I
0:26:39mean this design department has certainly been under Ive's leadership for what, 20 years
0:26:45or something like that? A long time. And so I would certainly not expect, and I don't
0:26:49think you guys are trying to imply that you do expect, I don't think any of us expect
0:26:53that there's going to be some dramatic turn where you're going to see like the back of
0:26:57a snail for a mouse and things like that. But I do concur that it is certainly going
0:27:03to be interesting watching how often we see function over form going forward because one
0:27:10of the things that I think the three of us agree on is especially when it comes to things
0:27:13like the thickness of devices, it seemed that it was form over function and so I'm curious
0:27:21to see how that changes going forward.
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0:29:21[music]
0:29:24You have somehow fallen upon, it just happened to you Marco, you have fallen upon a new iPhone
0:29:31and a new watch question, Mark? What's going on here?
0:29:35As you know, I'm running the betas on my main devices. I'm also working on a good mid-cycle
0:29:42update for Overcast for iOS 12 and watchOS 5, the existing non-beta versions. There's
0:29:49been a bug that I've been trying to replicate that people keep reporting where when you're
0:29:54doing watch local playback, sometimes the seek back or seek forward buttons will skip
0:30:01instead to the next episode and will lose your position in the one you were in. Which
0:30:05is a pretty serious bug and I was trying to replicate it on my beta devices and I just
0:30:11couldn't. Now, it is impossible to downgrade an Apple
0:30:16watch from the beta. Theoretically, I could bring it to an Apple store and have them send
0:30:20it out and have them do it but I'm nowhere near an Apple store, that would be a big pain,
0:30:24etc. So that wasn't really an option for me. I also didn't want to go that long without
0:30:29it for various testing reasons. I also have this other problem that I only
0:30:35have my one iPhone here with me at the beach and I'm doing a lot of development and I don't
0:30:40have an iOS 12 test device. So I briefly decided to borrow Tiff's phone and Tiff's Apple watch
0:30:48to try to run a test. She did not appreciate this at all. So I really needed something,
0:30:56I needed test devices that I could test the regular GM version and the beta. So I have
0:31:02my regular ones that I could test the betas on but I really needed another test device.
0:31:07I needed another Apple watch running watchOS 5 that I wouldn't put on the beta and I needed
0:31:13a phone running iOS 12 to pair it to. But what do you do in this situation?
0:31:17Well, what I would do because I'm cheap is that I would go back to my house and go get
0:31:22ones that I already had but I'm cheap. If I'm Marco, I would next day air myself some
0:31:28new devices. I think that's what most developers do is
0:31:31they keep their old phones to use as test devices instead of immediately selling them.
0:31:35I do keep a lot of my old phones, not all of them but a lot of them. I, however, didn't
0:31:40keep any old Apple watches. Like I have my series zero for just like nostalgia's sake
0:31:44in a drawer that I haven't powered on and the battery is probably deeply discharged
0:31:47and totally unusable now. It probably won't even boot anymore. But that happens with Apple
0:31:52watches. If you leave them in a drawer for a few years and don't charge them, you will
0:31:55never be able to charge them again. They'll never power on again in all likelihood. The
0:31:58battery totally dies. I also have this other problem. I never got
0:32:02an iPhone SE. For the last few years, my 4 inch test device was my old iPhone 5S and
0:32:08that worked fine except that now the 5S no longer works on the new version of the OS.
0:32:13So my 4 inch test device, which I left at home, I didn't bring to the beach, my 4 inch
0:32:18test device is no longer going to be a useful test device once iOS 13 ships and I have to
0:32:23run that on it. So I actually kind of wanted an iPhone SE. So I know it's discontinued
0:32:29but I went on Amazon and I'm like, "You know what? What do they actually cost?" And it turns
0:32:34out you can get an iPhone SE, not refurbished because that means more, but renewed, which
0:32:40means very little, it's basically very used. You can get a renewed iPhone SE unlocked on
0:32:48Amazon for about $120. And that's really pretty good I thought. So I put one of those in my
0:32:56cart and I thought, "Okay, now I got to have an Apple Watch to pair to it. What do used
0:33:01Apple Watches cost?" And I didn't want to go super low end for the Apple Watch because
0:33:05the build and run cycle on Apple Watches improves drastically as you go more and more recent.
0:33:12But I thought, you know, I'm probably going to have to, if I want something cheap, I'm
0:33:15probably going to have to go Series 2. But it turns out you can get Series 3 Apple Watches,
0:33:22which is only last year's model basically, you can get a Series 3 Apple Watch. I got
0:33:28Series 3 42mm cellular in stainless steel for $240. Wow, that's pretty cheap. The only
0:33:39reason I got the stainless steel in the cellular was it was only $20 more to get steel in the
0:33:43cellular. I'm like, "Alright, sure." And so I got both these in. They came in, you know
0:33:49the kind of packaging if you sell your phone or watch to Apple or Gazelle or one of those
0:33:55companies, they send you basically a sheet of cardboard with shrink wrap over it and
0:33:59you kind of shove your device into that. You know those things?
0:34:02Yeah, yeah. Amazon ships a lot of stuff in that. It's like when you're injured and they
0:34:06put you on one of those stiff backboard things and then just like wrap you with surround
0:34:10wrap so you're stuck to it. That's how your products come.
0:34:13Exactly. So both the watch and the phone, which came from different companies, they
0:34:17both came in those kind of just like, you know, plastic hold it like sticking it to
0:34:21a piece of cardboard. That's how Apple intended them to be presented to the customers, I believe.
0:34:25They spent a lot of time working on that presentation. Yeah, exactly.
0:34:27It's a piece of brown corrugated cardboard and then surround wrap.
0:34:31Yeah, yeah. When you have an entire iPhone for $120, you don't get such luxuries as genuine
0:34:37Apple chargers. Like it was shipped with like a generic, definitely not MFI lightning cable
0:34:44and little USB power brick. It comes with a wire coat hanger that's already
0:34:49been unwound for you. So you can just shove one end to the lightning connector and you
0:34:52shove the other end into an outlet. Right, exactly. And the Apple watch has clearly
0:34:56been put on a generic knockoff sport band. It looks very similar to the Apple white sport
0:35:02band and how, if I didn't own many white Apple sport bands, I wouldn't be able to tell the
0:35:08difference maybe, but because I own them and I have one right here, right next to it, I
0:35:11can tell there's very much a difference. You would tell when it starts to melt on your
0:35:15wrist. Yeah. But still, you know, it's still an Apple
0:35:20watch and the Apple watch did appear to come with a genuine Apple charging cable because
0:35:25I don't think it's as easy to come by generic Apple charging cables as it is for other things.
0:35:29Did you look on the back of the Apple watch to make sure it doesn't say APPEL or anything
0:35:34like that? I mean, no, like it's real. It's, it's, and
0:35:36it's stainless steel. Is it filled with sawdust? Does it turn on?
0:35:39Like the thing is like it works. Like, so both of these things, I plugged them in and they
0:35:44both work fine. Like there's a few dings on the cases. Like there's, you know, like the,
0:35:49the iPhone especially has like a corner dent on one corner. Uh, but like everything works
0:35:54at, you know, there were no scratches on the screens. Everything is fine. They charge up.
0:35:58The battery seemed to be totally fine. There were a couple of interesting takeaways for
0:36:01me using this phone for the last couple of days. I haven't been using it full time. I
0:36:05didn't put my SIM in it, but I had been playing with it a lot, like in the house, like leaving
0:36:08my big iPhone 10 S behind, like on a countertop and just taking the SE with me and playing
0:36:13with it for awhile. And a couple of things jump out at me from this thing. So number
0:36:17one, first of all, I think it's hilarious that the Apple watch costs a lot more than
0:36:20the phone. Um, but, but I still think that, you know, $240 for last year's model of stainless
0:36:26steel cellular 42 millimeter Apple watch is a really good deal. Um, and it kind of struck
0:36:31me like if you're willing to not have the latest and greatest and if you're willing
0:36:35to go used, you can get surprising discounts on Apple stuff. Like I, if you would've just
0:36:41asked me before I looked like how much I thought these things would cost, I would've guessed
0:36:45substantially higher than what they actually do. Uh, so that's, you know, number one, like
0:36:49that's, it's kind of cool that this is available and like for 120 bucks, this is a lot of phone
0:36:54actually like it's, it's not a bad deal at all. I would imagine like if, if I was, if
0:36:59I really wanted to get something a little more versatile, I would probably go for an
0:37:02old iPhone seven, which probably isn't that much, you know, maybe those are maybe like
0:37:05200 bucks. I mean, I don't know. I haven't looked at that, looked it up, but like I was
0:37:08surprised like how nice it was for that price and the watch, especially, you know, $240
0:37:14to get what was a year ago, I think a $700 configuration is pretty awesome. So a few
0:37:22other things you should add to me just for fun discussion sake. Um, the w when you've
0:37:26had a series for Apple watch and you've had then the pulled in corners, like the more
0:37:31rounded corners, the, the, the shrunk bezels and the Apple watch faces that go more edge
0:37:38to edge. The old Apple watch looks incredibly old when you see the screen turn on. Thanks
0:37:44buddy. You're welcome. Still on the series three, but you want, but see you want, you
0:37:47haven't gotten used to it. Like when you go to the series four, I would feel the same
0:37:50way. It really is like, especially like using my favorite face, the utility one, you know,
0:37:54like the basic round clock with all the good stuff. That face looks comical on the old
0:37:58one when you're used to the new one because it just gets this massive black border around
0:38:02it. So series four was actually a surprising upgrade in a lot of ways. Um, but I will say
0:38:08otherwise, you know, it's fine. It performs well and it's just as buggy as the Apple watch
0:38:12always is. Um, the iPhone se has actually been pleasantly nice. I haven't used this
0:38:19size phone for more than five minutes of testing, uh, in, since it was new since the, since
0:38:25I owned the iPhone five S and it's actually a really good size for a lot in a lot of ways.
0:38:32I'm surprised how well certain things still work on it. Like I'm surprised certain things,
0:38:38you know, not, first of all, you pick it up, it looks awesome and it feels awesome. And
0:38:42I heard on one of our friends, I forget which one I apologize, but I heard recently there
0:38:46was a discussion of like, what do you think is Johnny Ives? Like what do you think are
0:38:50Johnny Ives like greatest designs? And I would put very high on the list, the iPhone five
0:38:55S. Yeah, it is such like, I remember when, when John Gruber reviewed the iPhone five,
0:39:01he said in his review that it was such a nice object. It was like the nicest object he owned.
0:39:06The iPhone five S I think refined a lot of it. And the se took away the polished chamfered
0:39:11edge, which made it less nice. Um, but so, but like, so that's why I think like from
0:39:15a time project, the iPhone five S was kind of the peak of it and it is just such a great
0:39:19device. It is timeless looking. I still think it looks good. Even, you know, holding this,
0:39:24this se in my hand, it's an old phone now, very old now and it's based on the even older
0:39:28five S, but it is a, this, this wonderful, like the space gray with the black, you know,
0:39:34little cellular windows on top and bottom. This is a fantastic, timeless, really nice
0:39:39design. And if you consider design to be the combination of how it looks and how it works,
0:39:46I think the iPhone five S really was the peak of a lot of that entire class of iPhone before
0:39:54they got big. I really, really enjoy this, this device as a physical object. And secondly,
0:39:59the using it now when I'm, you know, I'm accustomed to the bigger phones now. So certain things
0:40:05like typing are really hard. Once you're accustomed to the big phone, it's really hard to go down
0:40:09a size for typing it. Like I made so many errors, just like typing my passcode and stuff.
0:40:14But once you get past that, or once you get accustomed to that, the interface actually
0:40:18scales down fairly well on most things. There were a few screens here and there that like
0:40:24something would fall off the bottom because nobody tested it. But it actually scales very
0:40:28well. And certain things like deleting a mail message by swiping, I know it's a stupid thing,
0:40:35but it's something I do all day long. It feels much smoother and better on the, on the five
0:40:41S than it does on my 10 S or I'm sorry, on the SE that doesn't on my tennis. And I don't
0:40:47know if it's just because it has fewer pixels, maybe it's running things at a higher frame
0:40:51rate because it has so many, so many fewer pixels to drive. Or if it's something about
0:40:55the digitizer with different or that it's just my fingers moving less distance because
0:40:58it's a smaller screen, who knows? But certain things about the size just feel really good.
0:41:04And it's like feelings that I've missed since I use this to the size on a regular basis.
0:41:08So I don't really have any conclusion here. I'm not suggesting anybody go back and use
0:41:12this because it is, you know, it's, it's an iPhone six S internals. So it is kind of the
0:41:16bottom of what's supported by iOS 13 and I would expect iOS 14 probably won't support
0:41:21it, but it was kind of nice going back to the size just to play around with and to see
0:41:25like in certain ways it feels like the past. Like when you, when you view certain things
0:41:30and you see quite how narrow your text column is or like, you know, Instagram looks hilarious
0:41:35by comparison, but like it is actually a really nice feeling phone and for 120 bucks, surprisingly
0:41:43usable. So that's it. That's all I had on this segment.
0:41:46I feel like this we've talked so much about phone sizes on this show, but it's, it's an
0:41:52issue that's never going to go away. If phones continue to be things with screens and then
0:41:56that you hold in your hands because there's always that tension between there's the size
0:42:01of your hand and the motions that are most comfortable for adult hands and fingers to
0:42:05make. And there's a range there obviously because people have different size hands,
0:42:08but still it's, you know, you could define that range. And then there's the screen where
0:42:13we want to see more stuff all the time. And you have to find the sweet spot between how
0:42:20much stuff do you want to see and how comfortable is it to hold in your hand, to manipulate,
0:42:24to stick in your pocket. And those two things will never meet. There is no perfect compromise.
0:42:30So we'll always kind of be oscillating depending on your, so if at any point, if we're in a
0:42:34big phone error or a small phone error or somewhere in between, you pick another extreme,
0:42:38you will find things about it that are better than whatever size phone you're using because
0:42:43those two things are always in conflict with each other. There is no point where they'll,
0:42:47you know, find each other exactly in the middle and we'll be like, I will never notice any
0:42:51benefit by going smaller or larger. You will notice benefits going larger and you'll notice
0:42:55benefits going smaller and disadvantages. And you know, it's, it's a constant compromise
0:42:58until we get Apple glasses or whatever where we can sort of divorce the, go back to an
0:43:04indirect interface, divorce the, I want to see as much information as possible, but I
0:43:09don't want to have something the size of a brick in my pocket. And you know, I can't
0:43:12put an iPad in my inside jacket pocket because I'm not David Smith.
0:43:16That's another thing. Like it feels, this thing feels like nothing in my pocket because
0:43:20now I'm, now I'm, because I'm used to the 10 S and before that the 10, the five or the
0:43:26S E feels like nothing. It feels like it's smaller than my wallet. I mean, it's like,
0:43:31it's really very small and it's, it's very lightweight compared, you know, the new phones
0:43:35are surprisingly heavy. Like when you feel the old ones, you realize quite how light
0:43:38the old ones were. And the five generation was an especially light generation of phone
0:43:43because it didn't have the glass back. And it's just, it's, it feels so good in so many
0:43:48ways. Like the sleep wake buttons in a good spot. There's a headphone Jack on the bottom.
0:43:52The volume up and down buttons feel great. I really like, there was that rumor that came
0:43:57out, I think last week, we didn't have time to cover it in our show, but there was a rumor,
0:44:00I think for Min-Chu Kuo that, that either this year's or I think next year's iPhones,
0:44:04the one that I use, the 10 S line, the screen was gonna get a little bit smaller and in
0:44:08the max line, the screen was gonna get a little bit bigger. And at first I thought, who, that's
0:44:13such a slap in the face for 10 S owners. Like here, you get to either have a smaller thing
0:44:17or pay even more and get a much bigger thing. But actually I think I might take that trade
0:44:23off because it turns out like if you can take what you already have and get most of that
0:44:28for a little bit smaller, that's kind of nice. I really like the way this tiny phone feels
0:44:34and you know what? The 10 S is a little bit big. So I think maybe I would enjoy going
0:44:39a little bit smaller than that.
0:44:40That, that sort of the bouncing around I was talking about where, you know, you're, you're
0:44:43sort of, there are, there are extremes and you're trying to find a sweet spot, but you're,
0:44:46you're always oscillating back and forth. Those oscillations let you from generation
0:44:51to generation or maybe two year or three year gap or whatever, let you get a phone and no
0:44:56matter which direction you're going, you'd be like, Oh, there's some aspect of this that
0:44:59I find agreeable. There is like the other screen felt too cramped or this feels better
0:45:03in my pocket. There's always an advantage for you, but then also a disadvantage so that
0:45:06when they oscillate slightly back, you know, maybe, maybe the oscillations are getting
0:45:10smaller or narrowing down on a compromise. That's reasonable. But I think the oscillations
0:45:14are an important part of the product line. Like there should never come a time where
0:45:17Apple feels like they have exactly correctly struck the balance between size, weight, screen,
0:45:24real estate, all of those things. Like they always, they should always oscillate because
0:45:28the oscillation will make a, any new phone in any, any oscillation, any direction feel
0:45:35good and interesting and make people not regret their purchase. And then, you know, eventually
0:45:39when what the negative aspects get annoying in two years, they'll buy another phone.
0:45:43Uh, Declan, well, both the kids use a, some iPhone app. I don't even remember what it's
0:45:50called as like a little noise machine, um, while they're sleeping and Declan's using
0:45:55a five S as his noise machine has for like four years now or whatever it's been. And,
0:46:00um, and I don't often pick it up. Usually I just, you know, leave it on his bedside
0:46:04table and just interact with it on the, on the table. But when I do pick it up, every
0:46:10time I do, I'm just gobsmacked by how perfectly it fits in my hand. And maybe your hand is
0:46:16bigger than mine. Maybe your hand is smaller than mine. But for me, the, the five almost
0:46:20at the S E the five S just fits perfectly in my hand. And so for a fleeting moment,
0:46:26I think to myself, why the hell am I carrying this tremendous like fablet, which it really
0:46:32isn't, but it feels like a fablet by comparison of an iPhone 10 in my pocket every day. But
0:46:37then if I ever open any app, but the sleep machine app or the noise maker app, I can
0:46:42see like six words of text on screen. Then suddenly I remember why I have this comparatively
0:46:47enormous phone in my pocket. And, and yeah, I think you're right, John, that, you know,
0:46:51I don't think we've struck the exact right balance. I do think the 10 is a little bit
0:46:55big for my taste, but you know, at least I'm not one of those, you know, plus or max monsters,
0:47:00you know, like, like Mike Hurley is. I don't know how that guy survives. It's funny. Like,
0:47:04you know, when I, when I first started using it, I think I think the same thing like, wow,
0:47:08what a tiny little window that I'm seeing all this content in. But like, as I play with
0:47:12it, it's so damn fast. Like it for, for the phone that is the lowest end supported phone
0:47:20for the new OS, it sure is fast on iOS 12. Like it, it is surprising how fast it is. And
0:47:28it just not, I'm not, you know, benchmarking, but just like just the way it feels to do
0:47:32things. Like I mentioned the mail thing earlier, like, and again, I don't know whether it's
0:47:36just that my fingers need to travel less distance. So like, it's, it's just like faster and wall
0:47:40clock time to do certain things or not. But it just feels, it's almost like I've been
0:47:45driving an SUV for the last five years and then I get into a Miata. It's just like, it
0:47:50just feels so nimble because you can just fly around it so fast because you're not spending
0:47:54any time adjusting your grip at all or reaching across long distances at all. It's just really,
0:48:01really nice and surprisingly fast in basic operation for such an old device. So I actually
0:48:07like, I mean, you know, I don't think I could ever switch to one, you know, that's this
0:48:12small full time again, just cause I do so often use things that really want a bigger
0:48:16screen. But boy, is it nice to play around with this sometime.
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0:49:42sponsoring our show.
0:49:47So you have new toys. I want a new toy, guys. What was it, yesterday? That Apple announced
0:49:54that they have done me some good things and they have done me some bad things. So Apple
0:50:01has refreshed the MacBook Air and the 13 inch MacBook Pro.
0:50:06Sort of.
0:50:08Sort of. But they have killed my beloved adorable. The MacBook One, also known as the MacBook
0:50:15Adorable, also known as just plain MacBook.
0:50:17The 12 inch MacBook.
0:50:19It's dead, you guys. Mine is fine. I mean, it's still slower than shit, but it's dead.
0:50:23Officially, it's dead. And so I don't know what to do. I would like to talk about what
0:50:30I should do from here, but before we get to that, we should probably run through the changes
0:50:35that have come from Apple over the last 24 hours. So the MacBook Air now has True Tone.
0:50:40It is now down $100. So instead of being $1200, it is now $1100 and importantly $999 for students.
0:50:51So that's a big deal.
0:50:52The 13 inch MacBook Pro is now on 8th generation quad core CPUs. It is $1299, $1300, which
0:51:00is the same price as the Escape once was. And like I said, the MacBook Adorable is dead.
0:51:05The MacBook Escape also dead.
0:51:07Apparently, Apple just really hates our nicknames, almost as much as Steven Hackett does.
0:51:11I will say though, there is a significant reframing going on here about what happened
0:51:18to the Escape. The Escape is not dead. There are still two very different 13 inch MacBook
0:51:24Pro models, one of which uses 15 watt TDP CPUs, one of which uses 28 watt CPUs. The
0:51:3115 watt one still has only two ports. The 28 watt has four ports. What happened is not
0:51:38that the Escape went away. What happened is that the Escape got a touch bar.
0:51:41Well, it's not the Escape anymore.
0:51:42Exactly.
0:51:43You lost the Escape. The Escape is definitely dead. The MacBook Escape was, yes, the computer
0:51:48with all the slow stuff inside it, but it was the one with the Escape key. And so that
0:51:52one's dead.
0:51:53I know. Well, the name is dead, but the computer lives on. They're still selling two very
0:51:59different computers as kind of the same thing. It just had two different price points, but
0:52:06it's like, oh, this one has only two ports and this one has four ports. And the CPU clock
0:52:10speeds are very different. The internals are completely differently laid out. It's a very
0:52:15different machine. So the Escape is not dead. We just can't call it that anymore because
0:52:20it got a touch bar. But it is still...
0:52:22What do we call it? The touch bar Escape?
0:52:27Our names are getting as unwieldy as Apple's actual names.
0:52:30I know, right?
0:52:31Touch bar Escape late 2019.
0:52:33I like what StyleDash suggested in the chat, which is MacBook unescaped.
0:52:38Actually, I'll get to that later during escape2p. But anyway, so these are some really odd updates.
0:52:46So first of all, the MacBook Air got "updated," but the only changes are the display got True
0:52:55Tone, which is very minor, the price got lowered, and I've also heard that the SSD is slower,
0:53:02which might accommodate for the price lowering.
0:53:04Oh, interesting. I mean, the MacBook Air is a pretty recent computer. It's not overdue
0:53:10for an update, so I'm surprised it got any updates at all.
0:53:13Right. And what's extra weird about this is that there is the Mingshe Quo thing last week.
0:53:18He says that the MacBook Air with the new scissor keyboard is coming out this fall.
0:53:24So this, to me, I hesitate to call this an update. I think this is more like when last
0:53:33fall or last winter, whenever it was, like December, whenever it was, when Apple slightly
0:53:38revised the 2018 15-inch MacBook Pro by simply adding a new Vega GPU option to it.
0:53:46So it wasn't really a full-blown update. It was just like a new, a slight adjustment to
0:53:51what was available for it. I think this is kind of like that. I think they've taken the
0:53:542018 MacBook Air and they've finally given it, by default, the new revised third-gen
0:54:02butterfly keyboard with the new materials. So that's one change that has definitely happened
0:54:06here. We've got that confirmed somewhere. It has True Tone, which is very, very minor,
0:54:12and it has apparently possibly a slower SSD, which probably allowed it to drop that price
0:54:16down a little bit. It seems more like a slight revision that was timed specifically to capture
0:54:23the back-to-school market, which for the MacBook Air is a pretty substantial buying period.
0:54:27I think they saw a whole lot of these for students in the summertime. So I think this
0:54:32is being presented, PR-wise, as a refresh to the MacBook Air, but it really, I don't think
0:54:39it really is one. I think it's a very slight mid-cycle tweak that is mostly a price drop
0:54:44and a few very small modifications to achieve that. But I think that's about it. The Escape
0:54:51change is more substantial because that one got completely new CPUs that are now quad-core
0:54:56before it was dual-core at the 15-watt level. So the Escape now got the quad-core CPUs,
0:55:01a T2, and the Touch Bar. It didn't have any of those things before. And it got the new
0:55:05keyboard, the new old keyboard before. The Escape before this had the 2017 keyboard.
0:55:13It didn't even have the membrane from summer 2018. It missed that cycle completely. So
0:55:19the Escape, or what is now, the artist formerly known as the Escape, got an actual real genuine
0:55:26update. It is like a real nice 12-18 month style update. But the Air, I wouldn't call
0:55:34what happened to the Air an update. And that's why I think that the Ming-Shi Kuo rumor about
0:55:39a new Air coming out this fall with the new keyboard, I don't think this quote update
0:55:46invalidates that or makes that much less likely. I think these can both be true. That the MacBook
0:55:53Air got this small revision this summer to make it a little bit cheaper, but that it
0:55:57might also be getting replaced this fall. Because Apple's been updating things more
0:56:01frequently. They went through the bad period of the 2016 era, updating things on a various
0:56:08low cycle and making everything worse with every update that they did do. But now, in
0:56:14the last couple years, they have shown a pattern of updating the laptops whenever, or at least
0:56:20updating the laptops that matter to them. I should definitely have had that. Updating
0:56:24the laptops that matter to them whenever they can. Basically whenever there is something
0:56:29new to update to, they do it. They did the mid-cycle GPU update. They did this 2018 revision
0:56:35like this spring. And you know, like brand new things as soon as they could. So I'm guessing
0:56:42that whatever rumor stuff is coming out with the new keyboard this fall/this winter/next
0:56:46spring, whenever all that stuff happens, I think that's still going to happen. I don't
0:56:50think these updates necessarily preclude that. Simply because that would only be like six
0:56:56months from now.
0:56:57I'm not the biggest laptop fan, but I continue to look at these various revisions, new materials,
0:57:06reshuffling of the line. It's just like, who cares until they get a new keyboard? My brain
0:57:11is just turned off to the notion of Apple laptops until they deal with the keyboard.
0:57:16It's kind of like with the Mac Pro. It's like, are you going to come out with the Mac Pro?
0:57:21Until it comes out, I don't care. They keep shipping products. I'm like, I don't like
0:57:26the Mac Pro, which was never actually updated. They keep shipping products, but it's like,
0:57:31okay, fine. But you know, I can't recommend these to people without a big long explanation
0:57:37about the keyboards. Like we're still kind of in that halting pattern. So I think it's
0:57:40great that they're updating them and simplifying the line and all that other stuff. But it's
0:57:45like, it doesn't matter. Like it's not deck chairs on the Titanic because it's not going
0:57:49down. Like they are going to make computers with the new keyboard that presumably will
0:57:52be better. And honestly, we haven't even heard, at least I haven't, whether the new materials
0:57:57have solved the problem. Maybe they have. Maybe the new materials actually solved the
0:58:00reliability problem and we're just left with the key layout and typing feel, which is a
0:58:05thing that some people may like and some people may not like. But I just, I've just given
0:58:10up on this whole line. It was like, revise them all you want. Make new, just, I'm just
0:58:14waiting for the new laptops and it'll be great if they come up with the Air and the other
0:58:18one, but then we'll be like, okay, well who's left? Who's left still with the old keyboard,
0:58:22right? Until we can wholeheartedly recommend it. Because I would almost wholeheartedly
0:58:26recommend the new Air if it had a different keyboard. And you know, a couple minor tweaks
0:58:31here and there, but like, I can't get excited about these revisions and you know, getting
0:58:38rid of the escape makes sense to me because that computer never really made much sense.
0:58:42And you know, sort of folding it in to be a sheep in wolf's clothing, so to speak. It's
0:58:47got a touch bar and everything, but it's half the ports and half the number of cores and
0:58:52everything. I think the only, the only part of this that I'm interested in is the MacBook
0:59:00One getting canned because I kind of loved that machine that it existed. I didn't love
0:59:07that it was slow. I always hoped that it would travel the same path as the original Air where
0:59:12it started off as an oddity, pushing the boundaries of technology and then eventually got its
0:59:16feet under it and it became a really great computer. And it seems like the MacBook One
0:59:20never really got that chance. Like it was an oddity and it pushed the boundaries of
0:59:24technology and it got like one foot under it and then it just was thrown in the garbage
0:59:29can. So I mean, obviously it is the most awesome and obvious candidate for a revision to have
0:59:37an ARM CPU to have even better battery life and even less power. I do wonder if there's
0:59:43room in that form factor for the scissor switch keyboards with double travel. Maybe with,
0:59:48again, maybe with an ARM CPU there'll be more room inside there. Shout everything out of
0:59:52the way of the keyboard and there'll still be enough room for the battery for that tiny
0:59:55little ARM CPU. So if when the ARM Macs come out, I'll really be looking forward to the
0:59:59resurrection of, we're gonna have to call it the adorable. That was a CGP Grey who came
1:00:04up with the adorable. Yep. Yeah. I think we're gonna have to call it that because I really
1:00:08hope that if they do resurrect this computer as an ARM computer, it will have more than
1:00:12one port, but who knows? Apple is stubborn. They could stick to one port. But yeah, it
1:00:18just seems like the MacBook ones was too thin to live. I would imagine you can't put in
1:00:26the current MacBook one, you can't swap out that keyboard for one with more travel because
1:00:30of all the computers Apple sells, this is the one where you need a low travel keyboard
1:00:33because it is so thin. And I really think that what would have made that product great
1:00:41is to have a really, really good powerful CPU in there. And there's nothing from Intel
1:00:45apparently that fits the bill to be able to fit in a fanless enclosure that is way faster,
1:00:50but there are a bunch of CPUs in fanless enclosures and products made by Apple that are really
1:00:55fast, much faster than the MacBook one that would really make that machine kick butt.
1:01:00So I really hope it comes back to us later in the ARM era. But yeah, until then, wake
1:01:07me up when there's a new keyboard. Yeah. And I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that.
1:01:13I mean, I think that pretty much everybody in this racket would guess like, yeah, if
1:01:17anything's going to come out with an ARM version, the tiniest little 12-inch MacBook was one
1:01:23of the top candidates to have it first. But I think in general, I was very surprised that
1:01:29it was canceled. I have since heard from a number of different people, apparently sales
1:01:33of it were very low, that it didn't sell well. And I can't say I'm surprised by that. I think
1:01:38what we've seen in the laptop line over the last while now, remember the MD whatever,
1:01:45whatever 101? It was the 13-inch non-retina MacBook Pro with the DVD drive that was kept
1:01:53in the lineup forever. I think it was a 2011 model, I think, or a 2012 model maybe, and
1:01:59it was kept in the lineup until like 2016 or something because people just kept buying
1:02:04the thing. Like no matter what else Apple released, they sold a ton of those MD 101s
1:02:11because it was a roughly $1100 computer. So it was like an inexpensive, by Apple standards,
1:02:18an inexpensive laptop. You could replace the hard drive and the RAM easily down the road.
1:02:24So it was serviceable long-term. It was cheap to spec up. You could put a spinning disk
1:02:28in there. Back when everything else Apple sold used SSDs only. So it was like it was
1:02:32much cheaper to spec up. It had a DVD drive so that was like one less thing people had
1:02:36to worry about, like one less limitation that they had with the computer. And yeah, it was
1:02:40non-retina but everyone mostly didn't care. And so they sold a ton of those 101s because
1:02:48it was just like a very practical, cheap, very versatile computer as long as you were
1:02:52willing to take something that wasn't particularly new. And when they eventually discontinued
1:02:58that, what replaced it in that role was the 13" MacBook Air, the old one. Again, by that
1:03:04time that was actually a pretty old computer as well. It was also like non-retina, also
1:03:1013", also about $1100. You can see a lot of parallels here. It didn't have the replaceable
1:03:18RAM or hard drive or it didn't have the DVD drive but it was a very similar thing
1:03:21of like Apple had lots of other computers that were nicer and newer and above it in
1:03:26the line but people kept buying that thing in droves because it was a great value and
1:03:33it was highly versatile. It would satisfy almost anyone's needs. So if you look at
1:03:38the 12" in this context, it never could reach that point. It was not anywhere near
1:03:46versatile enough and they either couldn't or wouldn't make it cheap enough to ever
1:03:52take that role. And so if you were a person going into an Apple store wanting to buy a
1:03:56laptop for yourself and you wanted something at the lower end, why would you get the 12"
1:04:02when you could get, until recently, the crappy old 13" MacBook Air which was actually a
1:04:08pretty great computer if you didn't care about retina. You could get that for the same
1:04:12or less money and have better specs as long as you didn't care about retina. And it
1:04:18was bigger and heavier but most people didn't care that much compared to what they got for
1:04:24that money. And so really what Apple needs in that range of the lineup is better value
1:04:34and more versatility and that's something that the 12" MacBook just couldn't get.
1:04:40The 12" had a lot of fans. Well, it had no fan but you know what I mean. It had a lot
1:04:46of satisfied or it had a lot of customers. Almost everyone I knew who had one, you included
1:04:51Casey, almost everyone I knew who had one had a bit of a love-hate relationship with
1:04:54it. I know very few people who bought only one. Usually you'd buy one and it was slow
1:05:02as hell and then they would revise it and it would be 5% faster and you'd be like,
1:05:05"Okay, take my money. I need every drop of performance I can get because it's still
1:05:09so slow. I'll take the 5% faster." And it was just so slow and so limited and using
1:05:17that one port was so annoying because if you wanted to plug in power and anything else
1:05:25you would need a dongle. So it was like laughably annoying to own this computer. But a lot of
1:05:33people did enjoy it anyway because it was so damn small and so damn light. And so I
1:05:39see there is a role for that but I think what this probably confirms, first the going almost
1:05:47two years without an update and then being quietly killed, I think what this kind of
1:05:52confirms is just not enough people are willing to tolerate all those trade-offs. A lot of
1:05:58people try to compare it to the MacBook Air but it really is a very different computer
1:06:02because it takes way more trade-offs to get it to where it is than the MacBook Air did.
1:06:10Even the old 11-inch MacBook Air needed fewer trade-offs than what the 12-inch MacBook needed.
1:06:15The 12-inch MacBook was a massive pile of massive trade-offs to get a little bit smaller,
1:06:22a little bit lighter and most people just weren't willing to make those trade-offs.
1:06:26Like the original Air, like I said, a huge amount of trade-offs to get a little bit thinner,
1:06:31it can fit them in an envelope but honestly it was basically just like taking an existing
1:06:34Apple laptop and make it have a taper. But if the Air had not, imagine if the original
1:06:40Air, the next one that came out was 5% better. You needed that big jump with the 2011 model
1:06:47or whatever when they did the revised one. It's like finally this is a really good computer
1:06:51now. And so suddenly all the attractive attributes are still attractive and they got rid of all
1:06:58the downsides and I just felt like they couldn't do that with the One. If they could have made
1:07:02the MacBook One, they could have taken it in two directions. One is it could have become
1:07:04like the Air where it's the computer that's good enough for everybody and it's inexpensive
1:07:09and super light. And the other direction they could have taken it if they couldn't do that
1:07:11is make it the luxury model. If they could have made the MacBook One three times faster
1:07:18and add hundreds of dollars to the price, it would have been like, "Oh, if you have
1:07:20tons of money, you can get this amazing computer. It's super fast and it's incredibly small."
1:07:25But there was no option to do that. Like there is no CPU they could put in there that could
1:07:28do that, right? So with Arm, I feel like they have both options on the table. They can make
1:07:33this a good enough for everybody computer that also happens to be ridiculously thin,
1:07:38maybe a resurrection of the 2011 MacBook Air, the one we say, "Why would you not get this
1:07:41one? Unless you need more than three ports," I'm getting greedy here, "more than two ports
1:07:47maybe, get this model because it's fast enough for you and it's so thin and it's got a new
1:07:53keyboard and you'll love it and it's great." Or they could put the fastest of the fast
1:07:59iPad CPU in there and say like, "This is expensive, but boy is it thin and it's super fast and
1:08:05it's got four ports on it or something." So I think we'll be seeing a computer like this
1:08:11again in our future, but it could never get out of its own way. It spent its entire time
1:08:17with the, what the hell was that, the spinning disk in the original MacBook Air, like 120
1:08:22gig or 80 gig. It was like the iPod hard drive in there, right?
1:08:25Yeah, it was literally an iPod hard drive. It's no good.
1:08:29So as someone who has lived with one and only one MacBook Adorable/Macbook One, I did only
1:08:35purchase one. I think that's because I got the most recent one and then they killed it.
1:08:41So I agree with what you had said earlier, Marco. I would have taken the underscore approach
1:08:45where if they had revved this today, I probably would have already placed an order. Not definitely,
1:08:53but probably. And having lived with this computer for two years, especially when I was in my
1:08:59anti-iPad days, which was basically up until the new iPad Pros last fall, it was amazing.
1:09:06Yeah, it was a little bit slow, but it was rare, usually, up until vignette, it was rare
1:09:12that I was doing anything that really required a whole lot of oomph on it. And so it was
1:09:16this, it was basically an iPad that was an actual computer. Ha ha, yes, I know. I'm not
1:09:21trying to start that fight. I'm just saying like, it was an iPad that ran OS X or Mac
1:09:26OS. And that was amazing. That was so amazing. And I loved that so much. And I still do love
1:09:37this computer, but as I'm doing ever more development on it, I'm finding that I am ever
1:09:42more annoyed with how slow it really is. And so, a couple people lit me up on Twitter saying,
1:09:50"How could you need to replace a two-year-old computer? I haven't needed to replace a two-year-old
1:09:54computer in a decade," or something like that. And yeah, that's true.
1:09:58They weren't buying the 12-inch.
1:10:00But yeah, buy the 12-inch MacBook, which was underpowered the moment I bought it. And I
1:10:03knew that. I knew it, and I did it anyway. And the reason I did it anyway was because
1:10:07I wanted something ultra-hyper portable. And that was the number one priority to me. And
1:10:12in that, this thing has succeeded tremendously because it is unbelievably portable. However,
1:10:22it is dog-slow. And the other problem I have with it is that it only has one port. And
1:10:27it is not often that I want to plug in two things, but it is also not rare. And so, just
1:10:35earlier tonight, it has decided that the time machine backup on my Synology is somehow corrupt,
1:10:41and it would like to start over and make a new one. And so, I thought, "Okay, I'm probably
1:10:45going to have to plug in Ethernet." And you should remember the days when Ethernet was
1:10:48just in the computer. But anyway, I'm going to have to plug in an Ethernet adapter. Oh,
1:10:52wait, that means I need to go get my dongle. Oh, and the Ethernet adapter and the dongler
1:10:55across the room, and I'm recording right now, so I guess I'm not doing that, am I? And that
1:11:00just gets frustrating. Or, hey, I would really like to plug in my phone to debug and also
1:11:05be plugged into power. Yes, it's dongle time. It's just--stuff like that is very frustrating.
1:11:10And so, I really wonder--and I'm based on zero empirical evidence other than my own
1:11:14experience--but I can't help but wonder, if this thing had two ports, would it have sold
1:11:21twice as well, or considerably better? And there's no way for us to know. But the one
1:11:27port thing was very, very frustrating, particularly once I started developing with it, when I
1:11:35really would want to plug in a phone and not have to do it via a dongle. So, you know,
1:11:39I have a USB-C to Lightning cable, which works great, but then I can't power the thing. And
1:11:46so then, especially now, I'm asking this dog-slow CPU to do something that requires a lot of
1:11:52CPU power, so now I'm murdering my battery, and I'm charging my phone off of the laptop
1:11:57battery, so I'm murdering it twice over. And it's getting hot, because it's fanless. Exactly.
1:12:03So it's like the perfect storm of awful for this computer. And I still love this computer,
1:12:09and I will always love this computer, because it is such an unbelievably cool piece of technology.
1:12:16But I don't think it's the right one for me anymore. And so that's why I said I would
1:12:20have probably bought a revved version earlier today, if such a thing existed. But I've gotten
1:12:27to the point that I really think that I need more power. And we are skipping a little bit
1:12:34ahead, but this is a perfect segue to the field trip I took today to the Apple Store.
1:12:39And I went to the Apple Store today because I thought to myself, we're going to talk about
1:12:42this tonight. And I want to handle a 13-inch Air and a 13-inch MacBook Pro, because the
1:12:49last 13-inch Air I've handled is Aaron's, which not only has it been underwater several times,
1:12:55but... Yeah, you're still allowed to handle it? Yeah, well, that's true. But I don't even
1:12:58remember how old that thing is, but it's easily four or five years old. It is not young at
1:13:04this point. It might even be older than that, I don't recall. I don't even know what version
1:13:08of Mac OS is on it. It might even be a version of OS X, that's how old it is. But anyway,
1:13:13you get my point. And that thing is big and it's heavy compared to my Adorable. It is
1:13:18enormous compared to my Adorable. And I don't really have experiences with 13-inch Pros
1:13:26or 13-inch Airs other than that one. So I went to the Apple Store today and I went looking
1:13:30at the Escape, because it was still an Escape in my store at this point. And I went looking
1:13:35at the Pro and then I went looking at the Air as well. And as it turns out, these things
1:13:43have gotten crazy light over the last few years. Who knew? So I was looking at them...
1:13:48You've been working out. And I'm looking at these things and I actually brought my computer
1:13:54bag with me with my laptop in it. And of course, I feel like I'm looking as though I'm preparing
1:13:58to steal these things. But be that as it may, I'm trying to look confident. And if you look
1:14:01confident, that's halfway to getting away with anything. So I pull my Adorable out of
1:14:05my laptop bag and I have that in my right hand and I'm closing and picking up these
1:14:09display units in my left hand. And I went and did a little bit of research, because
1:14:14my name is not John Siracusa and I'm allowed to. And in 2017, I paid $1,744.82 for my loaded
1:14:25MacBook Adorable. It was as loaded as I could get it. Which, by the way, I thought I paid
1:14:29like over $2,000 for that. So it was cheaper than I remember it being. But anyway, it is
1:14:35listed as 2.03 pounds. So for all intents and purposes, 2 pounds. The 13-inch Air, as
1:14:42I looked at Apple's website earlier tonight, is 2.75 pounds. So that's effectively three
1:14:48quarters of a pound heavier. It is also, the way I would have configured it, it is $1,900.
1:14:53That is not the base config, as we've said before. This is the way I would configure
1:14:56it, which is the 1.6 gigahertz Core i5, the 16 gigs of memory, one terabyte SSD, and that,
1:15:04of course, has two Thunderbolt 3 ports. How amazing would that be, ladies and gentlemen?
1:15:09It has two ports. Imagine that. And so I'm handling this MacBook Air and I'm handling
1:15:14my MacBook Adorable and I realize there's really not a lot of difference here. There
1:15:21is certainly a difference in surface area. There's certainly a difference in weight.
1:15:25But there's really not that much difference here. I could do the Air. So then I go over
1:15:28to the 13-inch MacBook Pro and I start looking at the Escape and then I'm boinging back and
1:15:33forth between the Escape and the real, quote-unquote, "real" MacBook Pro. Come to find out that's
1:15:38three pounds, 3.02 pounds. So it is almost exactly one pound heavier than my Adorable.
1:15:45I got to tell you, I understand that that's another 150% heavier than my Adorable. But
1:15:55it doesn't feel like it, man. It really doesn't feel like it.
1:15:59You're saving three-quarters of a pound of dongles.
1:16:01Yeah, right, exactly. So I couldn't believe how small and light that felt in my hand.
1:16:07And maybe I'm just trying to convince myself. Maybe I'm just trying to justify a purchase
1:16:11Marco style. But it really felt unbelievably small and light. And the way I think I would
1:16:17configure it is $2,400. So it is nearly $1,000 more than I spent on my MacBook Adorable, which
1:16:23again, $1,700 versus $2,400. But I think the way I would configure it is a 2.4 gigahertz
1:16:29Core i5, a 16 gigs of RAM, a terabyte hard drive. And then I would think about going
1:16:36up to the next CPU, which is $300 more. And I would think about-- and I think that's an
1:16:41i7, if I'm not mistaken. And I would think about going to an additional terabyte, so
1:16:46a total of two terabytes, for an additional $400 more. So if I did both of those things,
1:16:51it would be just over $3,000, which is more than I'd like to spend. But I'd at least consider
1:16:55it. But if I were to buy a new computer today, I really think I would get the 13-inch MacBook
1:17:02Pro, because it really isn't that much heavier. And I don't think I need the ultimate in portability
1:17:09anymore, because if I do, that's why I have my iPad Pro, which I also really, really love.
1:17:14Well, it's too bad you're forbidden from buying a new computer until they have new keyboards,
1:17:18so we don't have to worry about this.
1:17:19That's the thing. Hearing you talk earlier, I was like, "Oh, Jon's right. I really do
1:17:24have to wait a little bit longer."
1:17:25This is the wrong time to be buying your laptop.
1:17:27Yeah, it really is.
1:17:28Just wait. Just wait.
1:17:30And I'm going to say the exact same thing. If your MacBook 12-inch was totally dead,
1:17:36and you really needed a laptop very badly, then I would say, "All right, do what you
1:17:39got to do. If you need one that badly--"
1:17:42Marco would tell you you could get a stainless steel MacBook along with cellular for like
1:17:45$300 on Amazon.
1:17:48It's been refreshed.
1:17:49It comes wrapped in Styrofoam peanuts, but it's fine.
1:17:52Yeah, so if you really were in a bind, you had to get something today, I agree with you,
1:17:57the 13-inch MacBook Pro, and I would say get the one with four ports. It's nicer. You've
1:18:03served your time in one port purgatory. Just get the one with all the ports next. You've
1:18:11earned it.
1:18:12Yeah, that's the right move if you had to buy today. But because you don't have to buy
1:18:17today, you are looking at right now, the ones that were updated now and the ones that were
1:18:23updated in May, you are looking at what are likely to be the very last butterfly keyboard
1:18:30laptops.
1:18:31Chances are the butterfly keyboard era will come to an end within the next year, possibly
1:18:40even faster than that. But I bet one year from now in July 2020, mark my words, I bet
1:18:49that in July 2020 there will either be zero butterfly keyboards for sale from Apple or
1:18:55it'll only be like old models they're still selling, but like all the new ones will have
1:19:00scissor keyboards. That's my guess. And I think that's one of the reasons why they killed
1:19:03the 12-inch because they can't do it for that one. It won't fit. But I think there's enough
1:19:08room in the other ones, especially if they're willing to revise them slightly or make them
1:19:12slightly thicker or slightly change the taper or whatever else. I think there's enough room
1:19:16in the other ones where they probably could do it in all the other, including the 13-inch
1:19:20air. But I bet a year from now you will be able to get a range of multiple Apple laptops
1:19:26with scissor cues. And if you get the very last butterfly laptop just out of impatience
1:19:35or out of, you know, fancyness because it's new, as soon as the new ones come out, you
1:19:39know, six months later, you're going to regret that decision.
1:19:43So I'm sorry. So state your bet one more time. So you're saying that there will be no new
1:19:48models with scissor, with butterfly switches? My bet is, is in one year, the vast majority
1:19:56of laptops Apple sells, like model wise, not like, you know, volume wise, like the vast
1:20:00majority of models they sell, possibly all of them, but I'm not that confident in that.
1:20:05I think within a year that most of the models for sale will have scissor keys.
1:20:10Got it. It is in D-U-E. I'm not willing to like bet any money on that. I'm not that confident
1:20:15in this, but it's just a feeling I have. Like, I just think, I think this is the end of the
1:20:19butterfly. This is such a weak bet. You're not even willing to say they'll all have it.
1:20:23You're just the vast majority. Are you willing, are you willing to bet that Apple doesn't
1:20:27sell an old model laptop for a long time these days? No. You're sounding so confident. Then
1:20:32you're like, I think there'll be some models with new keyboards. Of course there will be
1:20:35models with new keyboards. But not like, not just the 16 inch. Like I think it's going
1:20:39to be all of them or most of them at least. You said the vast majority. So there's only
1:20:44like four models. So that means you'd have to have like three of them. Well, cause like
1:20:48what they might do is like, you know, make the new Mac book air that Ming Chi Kuo predicted
1:20:53and have that be $200 more and keep this old one around at $999 for a while. Like it could
1:20:59be something like that. Right. So that's why I don't want to say all of them, but I think
1:21:03most of them a year from now will have scissor keys. I think maybe you could, you could have
1:21:08a, would you agree that they're not going to make any new computers with butterfly keyboards
1:21:14as in it's a new case design, a new form factor. Like that's the easier bet to say. Like these
1:21:20are the last ones definitely they're going to make with, with butterfly. I would even
1:21:24go as far as to say that the computers that they revised yesterday are the last revisions
1:21:30even that I think will have butterfly keyboards. You just think they might, they might keep
1:21:33selling them. Yes. Tim Cook. Like, like I, yeah, I think like the air that they slightly
1:21:39touched, like they're probably going to keep selling that as their cheapest computer for
1:21:45a while because that's just how they do things. But I bet, I bet all revisions that will occur
1:21:52after yesterday will be scissor keys. I don't think you're wrong, but I am interested to
1:21:58see how this turns out. And you're going to be, you're going to so regret it if you bought
1:22:02the last, but not even I bought the last butterfly. I haven't bought one since last year, but,
1:22:08but remember that I actually do like the butterfly keyboard and truth be told, I have not yet
1:22:14had a bigger issue than something that I needed compressed air for with my adorable in two
1:22:19years. Hold on. Didn't, didn't you have to bring your computer to your dad's like automotive
1:22:23power air compressor? No, no, no, no. I didn't have to. It just so happened. I know what
1:22:29you're thinking of. It just so happened that I was at it. It happened to me, Marco. It
1:22:33just so happened that I was at his house when I had an issue and I was like, Hey, do you
1:22:37have any compressed air? And he just like looked at me. It was about the same look I
1:22:40got when I once asked a friend of mine from college if his twin sister was identical or
1:22:44not. But anyway, um, he did. My dad just kind of looked at me and said, yes, yes, I have
1:22:50compressed hair. And so we went out to the garage just because it was easy. I don't have
1:22:53compressed air. I do have this jet engine. Just put your laptop behind this. You've met
1:22:58my dad. That would be his style. But, um, but no, I've never had to have the thing serviced
1:23:03more seriously than me or dad taking compressed air to it. But yet I fear the thought that
1:23:11if I were to get another one that I would not be so lucky. And so when, like I said,
1:23:17when John was talking earlier saying, how could you possibly buy a laptop right now
1:23:20if you don't need to? Yeah, yeah, you're right. Why would I be buying a laptop right now?
1:23:25I feel like we're so close. Yeah. You know, it's like there have been, there are multiple
1:23:29rumors from multiple directions that the scissor keyboards are coming this fall or this winter.
1:23:35That's not that far away. And imagine if the new air is made with the design philosophy
1:23:42embodied by the iMac Pro, the Mac mini and the Mac Pro, and it comes out and it's, it's
1:23:46got four ports on the side of it and a better CPU and a new keyboard and an SD card slot
1:23:52that you buy that instantly. You'd be like, thank God I didn't buy another laptop. This
1:23:55is finally a good MacBook Air again. You know, that's not going to have an SD card slot, but
1:24:00anyway, like just, just imagine that it has more ports. Like imagine that I don't even
1:24:04think it'll have four ports. Honestly, there is some embodiment of more boards. I probably
1:24:08won't have more ports too, but I'm just saying, well, this is what I'm thinking. Like again,
1:24:10with the design philosophy, if they just took the existing MacBook Air and just put a fricking
1:24:15scissor keyboard in it, like that would be a great computer. It's better, but like, honestly,
1:24:20I'm done with the bargaining. It's like, okay, why don't you just make your laptops good
1:24:24again? All right. So they're all going to have just USB-C. Can you put more of those
1:24:27on? The answer is yes, you could, but don't stubbornly refuse to like, don't go for that
1:24:32minimalism. Make a MacBook Air with more than two ports. You can do it. It will work. People
1:24:38will like it. They'll buy it. They'll like it better than if it just had two or put an
1:24:44SD card slot, two, two ports and SD card slot or more than two ports. This is the line I'm
1:24:48drawing for the MacBook Air that was finished being designed a year and a half ago, which
1:24:52is the other problem with expecting something new to come out of Apple. We have to wait.
1:24:57You know, anyway, yeah, don't buy these. They have bad keyboards.
1:25:01So one other thing we do have to cover quickly is that Apple is fairly dramatically lowered
1:25:05their SSD prices. And so from 9 to 5 Mac, the four terabyte SSD of the 512 gig, 15 inch
1:25:13MacBook Pro used to cost $2,800, $2,800. Now it costs half that at $1,400.
1:25:21And that is the price, the amount that you add to the price of your computer. It's not
1:25:25the price of the computer with that. It's like, take the price of your computer that
1:25:28comes with an SSD of some size that is less than four terabytes, throw out that SSD and
1:25:33then add $2,800 more dollars. And now it's half price at merely $1,400.
1:25:38Yep. And I think that's actually really great. And I haven't been quite as bitter at Apple
1:25:45RAM and SSD pricing as I was probably five to 10 years ago, maybe less than 10, but a
1:25:51while ago. It used to be that they would absolutely gouge you on, well, at that time it was spinning
1:25:56disks and also RAM. But I feel like this is to me within the realm of, okay, yeah, you
1:26:03have to make your money and it's convenient, blah, blah, blah. And okay, that makes sense.
1:26:07You know, $2,800, that does not make sense. $1,400 doesn't make sense to me, but I feel
1:26:12like it's at least reasonable. The reality is this isn't just Apple. If you
1:26:18spec up a machine from anyone else who sells you complete computers, from Dell, from HP,
1:26:25from Alienware, like whatever it is, whoever you're buying from, any kind of like RAM or
1:26:30hard drive upgrade at the time of purchase from the OEM is always more expensive than
1:26:35what you can go to Amazon or Newegg or whatever and buy your own for. It's always done that
1:26:40way. It's a profit center for them. That's just the business. That's the reality.
1:26:44So I know that SSD storage can be had way more cheaply outside of Apple than it can
1:26:51from Apple. SSD storage has gone through a massive price collapse over the last few months.
1:26:56It's awesome. You can get cheap, very, very cheap third party SSDs now from other companies
1:27:02that are very big and very inexpensive compared to where they were even one year ago, let
1:27:06alone before that. So it's great to be in the market for storage. And you know what?
1:27:11Apple did lower these by a large amount. And yeah, they are still way more expensive than
1:27:16what you can buy for an Amazon or whatever. But the fact is like in this business, like
1:27:20you're never going to get that price from the OEMs, from Apple, from Dell, from HP.
1:27:25So the fact that they lowered the prices is great news, even though they are not the bargain
1:27:31basement that we always want them to be. It just shows how out of whack they were. It's
1:27:36not like they reduced them by 10% or something. Like cutting the price in half and still having
1:27:40it be ridiculous. Ben Holmes tweeted like the prices have gone from absurd to ridiculous.
1:27:44Although I guess this is saying absurd is worse than ridiculous. I'm not sure I agree
1:27:48with that. Anyway, like so this another example is on the MacBook Air with a one terabyte
1:27:55SSD, you know, add $400, right? And this is the thing people notice in another one of
1:28:00the, that's why I highlighted when I described that thing. Another one of the effects of
1:28:05a configurator is you're like, oh, if you want the terabyte one, it's $400. It's like,
1:28:09no, what you're doing is you're removing 512 gigabyte SSD and then you're replacing it
1:28:17with a one terabyte and you're paying $400 for that additional 512. Like it's not like
1:28:22a $400 one terabyte, you know, SSD costs $400 like, oh, well I can buy a one terabyte. You're
1:28:28not buying a one terabyte. You're buying half of a one terabyte because you threw away a
1:28:31512, right? So their prices are still completely out of whack. Like Ben Holmes cites a price
1:28:37of $100 for a one terabyte NVMe SSD stick. I'm not sure where he's getting that price
1:28:42from. But yeah, like it's because you are removing an existing part or replacing it
1:28:48with a better part and then looking at the price as if you're just buying the better
1:28:52part, not accounting for the price that you should be gaining by removing the other one.
1:28:56Yeah, they're like Porsche car options. They're just ridiculous and it makes sense that's
1:29:02where they make their money. But if you price them too high, like no one will ever pick
1:29:07that option. So honestly, Apple's probably not making as much profit as it could be to,
1:29:12you know, just be reasonable. And the storage, it used to be like this in memory. Now Apple
1:29:17is reasonable with memory. And in some respects, like maybe that's the better thing to do.
1:29:24But in other respects, if Apple doesn't eventually get its iCloud act together, either in terms
1:29:29of pricing or transparency or both, have it running out of storage on your Mac is one
1:29:35of the things that hurts the user experience and the satisfaction with the computer the
1:29:41most because it's the, it's the thing that users are least able to deal with. And rather
1:29:47than motivating them to buy a new computer, it will just make them angry. Just be like,
1:29:51I just bought this computer three and a half years ago. And now it's out of room and I
1:29:55as user have no idea what to do about that. My computer is full. They just get angry,
1:30:01right? And so if we could just get over, I think we're close. We're close to getting
1:30:05over the hump of like having enough storage. I think we're probably there on phones. Like
1:30:09I think most people's phones have close to enough storage now, maybe one more doubling
1:30:14and we'll probably have like enough local storage that even Apple's cloud transparency
1:30:18stuff is enough to paper over the difference. Right. But Apple laptops specifically, especially
1:30:24lightweight ones are not anywhere near getting over the hump of they have enough storage
1:30:29for most people, especially if you have a photo library and especially if you use iCloud
1:30:33photo library, even if you do the quote unquote optimized storage, which is terrible, you
1:30:37can fill a default configuration, Apple laptop SST because the default configs are way too
1:30:43small and the step up configs are a lot of money and people see even a $400 upgrade to
1:30:48one terabyte and they think it's not worth and they need some nerdy computer friend like
1:30:51me to convince them. Trust me, you will be so happy three years from now when for that
1:30:58$400 you spent because you'll still be able to use your computer as opposed to having
1:31:02to chuck it in the ocean because it's full. Right. And there's nothing you can do about
1:31:06it. Yeah, I've been there. Like I, there were, there were, there's a couple of laptops I've
1:31:11owned where I just was impulsive. I just wanted to go to the Apple store and just buy one
1:31:14like on day one. So I'd like, there wasn't time to do like a configured order option
1:31:19and customize the storage. And in both of those cases, I ended up being a 256 gig SSD.
1:31:26And in both cases that limited the useful life of the laptop severely because I just
1:31:30slammed into that all the time. So now these days, no matter how impatient I want to be,
1:31:37five 12 is the minimum I will buy. And what I actually aim for for a laptop is one terabyte.
1:31:42Yeah. I feel like that's the thing that makes me like a computer the most is having it not
1:31:47get full. Like the five K I Mac already, like I filled the one terabyte SSD. I bought a
1:31:53big SSD. I thought I was buying a really big one back when they were really expensive.
1:31:56I filled it and I had to, I had to move my entire photo library to an external SSD, which
1:32:00isn't the end of the world, but it kind of annoys me. And one of the things I'm looking
1:32:04forward to the most slash fearing the most is when I got my new Mac pro, I wanted to
1:32:09have a lot of storage. I mean, it's less of an issue because as we discussed, you can
1:32:13actually put quote unquote external drives inside the thing through various mechanisms,
1:32:18but I would prefer it if the super fast internal storage was big enough to, you know, hold
1:32:25all my stuff for five years without me hitting limits. So if I were to get four terabytes,
1:32:30I think that would be fine because it'd be four times what I, you know, just barely able
1:32:34to fit in these days. So yeah, it's, it's kind of still kind of a shame that that's
1:32:39where Apple gets most of its money because, and especially on the laptops and most people
1:32:43buy laptops, first of all. And second of all, like I don't laptops, you don't have all
1:32:49the options of external drive and stuff because you just want to carry the laptop. And, you
1:32:54know, we'll, if we ever talk about Catalina, we'll get into this some more, but the Mac
1:33:00operating systems handling of a disc storage or whatever we want to call it these days.
1:33:08I mean, in some respects it has new features, but in other respects, it's actually getting
1:33:12worse in terms of how confusing it is. You know, related to the weirdness of ABFS, how
1:33:17much space do I have? How do I free up new space? How do I deal with the disc full? How
1:33:22does the operating system deal with the disc full? How do the applications that claim to
1:33:26deal with the full disc actually deal with it? It's one of the biggest pain points I've
1:33:30seen with Macs. Less so with phones and iPads, although there was still that ad campaign
1:33:35from Samsung or whatever, or Google or whoever it was, making fun of Apple's phones filling
1:33:40up with photos. But I feel like with the advent of what is the default config on the good
1:33:44iPhone now? Is it 64 gigs?
1:33:46I believe so, yeah. That really fixed it. Like that, that made it so that like we all
1:33:51just completely stopped complaining about how the entry level storage was so bad before.
1:33:57Like, you know, back when it was 16 gigs, that was terrible. And it stayed 16 gigs for
1:34:02a very long time. And once they went up, they first went to 32, and I think some models
1:34:07might still be in at 32, but for the most part they begin at 64 now. Huge improvement.
1:34:11And it basically takes care of the problem.
1:34:12Yeah, I mean, it's not like they don't get full. They still get full, but I feel like
1:34:15when you have 64, there's enough time for even Apple's sort of iCloud stuff to shift
1:34:20your iCloud, shift some of the photos off and to just have like the low quality ones.
1:34:25Like Apple does need to keep up with this. It's not like 64 is enough forever. Like you
1:34:28have to keep, you know, anyway, that's all we're talking about here is Apple keeping
1:34:32pace with the increasing size and decreasing cost of storage. And they fell way behind,
1:34:38embarrassingly behind even for Apple to the point where they're cutting their prices in
1:34:41half and now they're slightly less embarrassingly. I don't know. Like it still annoys me, but
1:34:49like, who is honestly, who besides businesses, what individual person was paying an additional
1:34:55$2,800 for the biggest SSD? It's only businesses. Because no individual person could probably
1:35:01justify that, even if they were like a freelance person or whatever and they thought they would
1:35:04use this, they were like, honestly, I'll just buy an external drive because you really need
1:35:09to be disconnected from the budget by a lot to pay $2,800. And then if you bought one
1:35:17of those yesterday and saw the price cut, that's not going to feel good. I bet you could
1:35:20get half that money back from Apple.
1:35:22I paid it.
1:35:24Well, I mean, talking about being disconnected from the value of money.
1:35:29No, it's for the reasons you said. When I bought the Mi Pro, I weighed that decision
1:35:34for a long time and I opted to do it because ultimately like I was juggling a lot of weird
1:35:40externals with my previous iMac because when I ordered my previous iMac, the biggest it
1:35:46got was one terabyte. That was the biggest option it had. And at the time I bought that.
1:35:50And that was expensive, not that expensive, but that was expensive at the time, like in
1:35:532014 whenever I bought that. And so when I bought the Mi Pro, I got the four terabyte
1:35:58because it was a pain in the butt juggling all these externals and I wanted to start,
1:36:03I knew this was a computer I was going to have for a while, so I wanted to start at
1:36:06the highest point I could start at knowing that over time I would be happy I did. And
1:36:11sure enough, here I am about a year and a half into this computer and I 100% stand by
1:36:17that decision. And even though it just got half the price, I've still gotten a year
1:36:21and a half of use out of that four terabytes and I'm still happy I did. Yeah, it was
1:36:25a ton of money, but so was the rest of the computer and I decided that was worth it.
1:36:30This is the MacBook Pro we're talking about though. The iMac was exactly the same price?
1:36:35$2800. That's why when you were saying earlier, no one knew what it was. I knew what it was.
1:36:40If you didn't buy that iMac Pro yesterday, it might feel different if you did. That's
1:36:44true, yeah. But anyway, and I will, before we leave this topic, which you really should
1:36:47do, but before I leave this topic, I will reiterate a trick I learned that I've been
1:36:52extremely happy with. One of the biggest problems when you have limited storage, like almost
1:36:58every laptop, is the way photos doesn't really purge the purgeable space when you
1:37:05have it in only keep small things mode. If you have it keep your whole photo library,
1:37:11you're on your own. That's how I do my iMacs. I just have to keep everything because
1:37:15I have the space for it. But if you're on a computer that's like a secondary one,
1:37:18like your laptop or something, where you only have Apple Photos keep the small versions
1:37:23and offload things to the cloud, it marks the space that it uses as purgeable, but as
1:37:28John said, the OS doesn't deal with that the way you think it will. It doesn't provide
1:37:32the controls that you need. A lot of times you try to use the space that is left and
1:37:37it doesn't purge it and so you can't use the space or whatever. So it's a bit of a
1:37:41mess. So what I did when I set up my most recent laptop last summer was I put the photos
1:37:47library, which you can move where that is, I put it on a sparse disk image that has a
1:37:53size cap. I think I made it like 30 gigs, something like that. So I had a size cap of
1:37:58a sparse disk image, put it in login items so the sparse disk image always mounts on
1:38:03login. That's where my Apple Photos library is and it obeys the disk quota of the sparse
1:38:09image you put it on. So my photos library is capped on my laptop at 30 gigs. No matter
1:38:15what I do, it will make space so it fits in at 30 gigs and then I don't have to deal
1:38:21with it intruding on the rest of my drive. So that is by far the biggest quality of life
1:38:28improvement that I've discovered for having a modern Apple laptop with limited SSD space.
1:38:34I highly suggest everyone do that.
1:38:36It's a little bit scary. I'm not even sure that's even a supported configuration.
1:38:40I understand the application can't tell the difference but I'd be a little bit scared
1:38:44of it. The other thing though is, I don't know if this is still true but I believe at
1:38:47one point, and maybe this was just on iOS, the optimized storage thing, I'm doubting
1:38:55whether this was actually true or not but my impression was that back in the day what
1:38:59optimized storage would do is it would download lower quality, not thumbnails, but just lower
1:39:07quality versions of photos to save space. The problem that you could run into with that
1:39:13strategy is eventually if your phone fills with the lower quality ones, there is no other
1:39:20strategy. It wasn't as if it would purge the photos entirely and download them on demand.
1:39:25It always wanted to have a photo on disk so to speak. It would just be a lower quality
1:39:30one. So if you have a very large library and you put it in a very small sparse disk image,
1:39:35it is possible that by adding pictures and adding pictures, you may hit the limit of
1:39:38your disk image and then you'd have to make a second disk image or expand it or copy your
1:39:41stuff over or whatever, which is not the end of the world. But all this is to say I still
1:39:45don't have much faith in the photo library's ability to actually manage the space available
1:39:53to it. I feel like it's using very naive strategies and never goes sort of full on demand where
1:39:58it's like I'll pull in images as needed and I will purge them as needed. It's more like
1:40:03I have strategy A which is keep everything and strategy B which is keep everything but
1:40:06if you run out of space, keep smaller versions of some things. And that strategy runs out
1:40:12of space eventually, unlike the other one which is just I have a buffer to work with
1:40:15and I will pull in the most recently used images in that buffer and purge them as needed.
1:40:19And the second thing of course with the purgeable space, I think there's actually a way to make
1:40:22it purge but the other thing that always gets people is local time machine backups. So I
1:40:27mean this is a nerdy thing to do but if you are a nerdy person listening to this and you
1:40:30frequently have space issues or you need to free up some space that you think should be
1:40:34free but some part of the operating system or application thinks it's not and you're
1:40:37running a modern version of Mac OS, man TMUTIL, TMUTIL and look at the local snapshot stuff.
1:40:44You can list your local time machine snapshots and you can delete your local time machine
1:40:50snapshots and that will save a surprising amount of space depending on what you've updated
1:40:54recently on your Mac.
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1:42:55Ron Olson would like to know, "What are your opinions on naming computers? Back when I
1:42:58was in college and even through my first few tech jobs, whimsical names for computers were
1:43:02ubiquitous. At my university they were named after 50s TV characters. But of late it seemed
1:43:07standard for computers to have names as interesting as a barcode. I'm curious what everyone thinks
1:43:10of giving more memorable names to their machines." I used to do this. I don't even remember the
1:43:15like schemes that I used to use. But I cannot remember the last time I have changed the
1:43:22name of a computer other than to maybe take my name out of it. So instead of like Casey's
1:43:26MacBook it just says MacBook or something like that. And I'm not even sure I did that
1:43:30much. So I haven't done this in forever and a day and I rarely pay attention to this sort
1:43:35of thing. John, what do you think about this?
1:43:37So this is going to be quick. I could go for 20 minutes and just on naming computers.
1:43:41See? See?
1:43:42I can just do one question. So I've been thinking about this. I'm not going to say I've always
1:43:51named my computers because before the internet and before ubiquitous networking there was
1:43:57not much reason to have a sort of computer world manifestation of what you call your
1:44:05computer because it wasn't addressable by its name to other computer things. And for
1:44:14me at least I never named my computer in the same way that like you'd name your car, right?
1:44:20Like there's no reason for your car to have a name. Other people don't have like Apple's
1:44:25glasses on and they look at your car and they see your car's name. Like there's no sort
1:44:28of computerized reason for it to have a name. If you give your car a name it's just because
1:44:32you want to give it a name.
1:44:33So what I would do with all of my Macs though is I would name the hard drives. The hard
1:44:38drive singular or the hard drives plural. Always my hard drives have, you know, the
1:44:44Apple hard drives would come and it's called Macintosh HD. I think still to this day it
1:44:48says Macintosh, the whole spelled out space, capital H, capital D, even though they're
1:44:53not really hard drives anymore. I would rename the hard drive and that was basically like
1:44:58the computer name especially when you just had one hard drive or it was your boot hard
1:45:02drive or it was inside the computer. But I wasn't technically naming the computer. I
1:45:05was naming the hard drive because if I had a second hard drive it would have a different
1:45:08name. So I've always done that. Usually it's like cartoon characters and I would have a
1:45:11matching icon and all this other stuff. I continue to do that to this day. But in the
1:45:17modern era when your computers are networked, even if it was just Apple Talk and now a day
1:45:22is like the rendezvous or whatever the hell it's called, zero conf networking and everything.
1:45:27There are reasons to give your computer a name that you can address it with. So all
1:45:30the computers in my house, both their boot hard drive and their name of the computer
1:45:34is whatever icon and name their boot hard drive gets. So again, it's video game characters
1:45:40and all various other things. So yeah, the only thing I've done recently is as I've gotten
1:45:45lots of computers, I got tired of coming up with new names. So I basically give my computer
1:45:49the same name all the time. I don't give a Roman numerals. It doesn't become the second
1:45:53or third. It just takes on the mantle of that name.
1:45:56Yeah, it's like Air Force One. It's like whatever is your current computer has that name.
1:45:59Yeah, more or less. And I do the same thing with my work computer across many different
1:46:02work computers and many different jobs. I always give my work computer similar names
1:46:06so I don't have to keep thinking of new names. And then the only other interesting story
1:46:11about this is like the naming of the computer and not the hard drive or whatever began far
1:46:19before I ever got into it in the world of servers that needed to have names, the internet,
1:46:24DNS, all that other stuff, right? And at universities where you'd have labs full of computers that
1:46:29weren't in the very old days, they weren't PCs or Macs. They were Unix machines. They
1:46:34were on the internet via TCP/IP and had host names, right? And so there was a challenge.
1:46:40How do you come up with host names for all these computers? And you could have boring
1:46:45host names or you just call them lab one, lab two, lab three, or computer lab with all
1:46:49these things, lab3.myschool.edu or whatever. That's very boring. And I'm sure I've told
1:46:56the story in ATP before, but people don't listen to the whole back catalog. So I will
1:46:59just reiterate my favorite naming scheme I ever saw was in the computer graphics lab
1:47:04at Boston University. Whatever system came up with this one, I thought it was very clever
1:47:09and interesting. The names of the machines were like, uh, scrutable, stinked, uh, I'm
1:47:16giving it away by the way I pronounced them, like a pendant. Um, lots of things that you'd
1:47:21look at them and you think they were as like pendant. Is that misspelled? Do they mean
1:47:24like a thing that dangles around your neck? Scrutable? Do they mean inscrutable? Uh, or
1:47:29no, scribable. Do they mean like able to be scribed or whatever? Anyway, it was like a
1:47:33lab full of machines like this. Uh, and they were all, uh, Silicon graphics, indie machines.
1:47:40So it was all words that began with indie, independent, indescribable. Uh, yeah, I don't
1:47:47remember all the names, but you would think you couldn't come up with all the words that
1:47:49begin with the sound indie, but they came up with like 12 of them. And I thought it
1:47:53was very clever because if you looked at the names, it made no sense until you saw the
1:47:56pattern. So kudos to the computer graphics lab at BU who were going up with that name
1:48:02and yes, Silicon graphics. They w that was a modern thing when I was at school when they
1:48:06did that, a Jurassic park thing where like she says, this is the unique system. I noticed
1:48:10they have that weird thing where you're flying through all the buttons. That was a real thing
1:48:13on SGI machines. And uh, when I saw the movie, I'm like, I do know that that's a real thing.
1:48:19That was real. That wasn't just moving. It was like a demo. It was like a demo thing.
1:48:23I don't, I don't think it would, they expected people to use it, but yeah, it came with SGIs.
1:48:26It was like a way to navigate the file system through a bunch of weird rotating sort of
1:48:31rectangular solid things. They didn't, you know, they didn't write the code for that
1:48:35for the thing that you buy. You could buy an SGI for 20 grand in 1990, whatever. And
1:48:40it would come with that. Uh, Marco, any thoughts? Um, not really. I have a similar air force
1:48:45one situation where like my, like I named my computer forever ago and just whatever,
1:48:51whenever I get a new one, it just inherits the old name. Uh, w with one notable exception
1:48:56to our relevant to our conversation earlier. Uh, when I, when I got the MacBook escape,
1:49:00I named it escape. And then when I later got the 15 inch touch bar to replace it, well,
1:49:09I lost my escape key. So I called it no escape, which is kind of a play on, you know, not
1:49:16only losing my escape key, but that now I have no escape from these horrible butterfly
1:49:21keyboards. You're stuck with them forever. So my laptop became known as no escape. And
1:49:26my laptop is still to this day, even though it's now two laptops later called no escape.
1:49:31Only two? You sure you didn't drop a zero there? All right. Pedro, a star K writes,
1:49:37hi, I'd love to hear John's take on the recent default shell change from bash to ZSH
1:49:43and Catalina for new installs given license issues with bash. Why not fish since the guy
1:49:48works at apple and GP, GPL version two seems uncontroversial. So I'm not a hundred percent
1:49:53sure that's correct about, um, the, the creator of fish working, working at apple, but I think
1:49:58that's correct. Uh, but either way, John, how do you feel about bash to ZSH? Cause you
1:50:04usually use ZSH, don't you? Or did I make that up?
1:50:08You are misremembering. Um, so we actually have a whole section about Catalina that if
1:50:12we ever get to, we probably will some point when we have to do like three episodes a week
1:50:16to deal with vacations in the summer. Anyway. Um, yeah, this is one, a minor point in it
1:50:21that some of the Unix stuff in Catalina is changing. So we'll talk about the rest of
1:50:25it later, but for now, for the shell stuff, what I heard is that it was a license issue.
1:50:30I don't know if that's actually true. It's hard to get this type of answer from apple
1:50:36because you can, if you're lucky, apple will tell you what they're doing, but they rarely
1:50:40tell you why, especially for something like this. Um, I don't use bash or ZSH, so this
1:50:47doesn't affect me. I use TCSH for legacy reasons because it's what the Unix system at my university
1:50:55used and that's just what I got used to. I do not recommend it. Um, uh, fish. Uh, I believe
1:51:03the person who writes fish does or did work at apple and he wrote fish. I'm not sure if
1:51:07he still does work at apple. Uh, apple should not change their default shell to fish because
1:51:13fish is a weird shell. Um, if like apple is not in a position to make something, the de
1:51:22facto shell for Unix computers, like by shipping it, that it's not like the evermore follow
1:51:27them. If the whole rest of like the Linux world essentially switched to fish, then yes,
1:51:31by all means, apple should start shipping fish. But if apple is the only one doing it,
1:51:36they shouldn't because then apples units will get the reputation of like, Oh, Apple's got
1:51:40Unix, but it's got this weird shell. That's like only Unix nerds. No, you can change your
1:51:44shell, right? But it won't matter. It'll just be like apple, uh, max have Unix, but the,
1:51:49but the shell is weird, right? By going with bash because it's what everybody else uses.
1:51:54Apple does not have a weird shell. ZSH is less weird than fish. It is, it is closer,
1:52:01more closely aligned to bash is, has been around for much longer. It is less weird.
1:52:06So if you have to change from bash to something, ZSH is a reasonable alternative. I don't care
1:52:11cause I don't use either one of the shells. Fair enough. Marco, do you have any thoughts
1:52:14on this? I do care quite a bit because I use bash heavily in, in my Mac usage. I have shell
1:52:22scripts that use it. I use it directly on the, you know, in terminal a lot. So I do
1:52:26care, but I don't know, I don't yet know enough about ZSH to know like how much of my stuff
1:52:32is this going to break or require relearning. You don't have to use it. You can just use
1:52:37bash. Like you can either build your own bash and install it. And I think they'll still
1:52:40ship bash. They're just changing the default shell. It's a pain in the butt though. Yeah,
1:52:44well, I mean, Hey, like I have, I have used the non default shell for basically the entire
1:52:49life of Mac OS 10. Uh, it preserves it across install. So it's not like a thing you need
1:52:53to do. Uh, it's just when you set up a brand new computer, if you don't do a migration
1:52:58assistant or whatever, install type CHSH and you'll be off to the races. It's just fine.
1:53:02Oh, all right. For what it's worth, I've used fish for years and I do not use very many
1:53:08shell scripts. I've not written very many shell scripts, so I'm just using it for just
1:53:11navigating around and doing basic operations. And I love it. Uh, I don't argue that it is
1:53:16very weird though. Finally, Tyler Menard writes, how do you use and take care of your big camera
1:53:21at the beach? Carefully. Uh, I don't really have any particularly good answers here. I
1:53:26try to put it in like whatever backpack or bag or what have you that I brought it to
1:53:32the beach in when I'm not actively using it. Uh, I also don't go like deep into the surf
1:53:37like John does with his big camera. Uh, but generally speaking, just being careful and
1:53:42trying to keep it away from anything that can hurt it, which yes, I recognize every
1:53:46grain of sand on that entire beach can hurt it, but just doing my best to, you know, put
1:53:50it inside a towel or put it in a backpack, like I said, and just keeping it as far away
1:53:54from sand as I possibly can. Marco, you occasionally live outside of the beach, but generally live
1:54:01on the beach. What do you do with this?
1:54:02Marco: I don't. I don't bring my big camera to the beach almost ever. And, uh, so I kind
1:54:09of avoid the issue.
1:54:10Douglas Feingold- So I'm on now a 15 year run of bringing quote unquote big cameras
1:54:16to the beach and haven't lost one yet, which means that I'm well overdue to drop my camera
1:54:21in the ocean this summer. I know it's going to happen eventually. Um, my, my plan is basically
1:54:26I have a separate bag that's just for the camera that I try to keep away from children
1:54:31because children kick sand everywhere. Like you can't, you have to just keep a perimeter,
1:54:35right? And the camera is either around my neck or it's in that bag. Um, it gets, it's
1:54:42a fact of life. It gets sand and salt spray on it. I clean it between trips, try to get
1:54:48the sand and salt spray off. The bottom line is some tiny minuscule speck of saltwater is
1:54:54going to get inside your camera and it's going to slowly corrode some electrode and then,
1:54:58uh, or some solder joint or something or the contacts on the SD card or like there's no
1:55:04stopping it. Like, and my cameras that I've had are not particularly weatherproof, but
1:55:08even if you get a quote unquote weatherproof one, unless it's in one of those things that
1:55:11you use to take your camera, you know, deep sea diving in the beach versus camera beach
1:55:16winds. So just be resigned to the fact that by taking your big fancy camera to the beach
1:55:21frequently, you are killing your camera and eventually it will die. And as long as you
1:55:26can be okay with that and get good pictures in the meantime, fine. But there is no real
1:55:30strategy other than be careful and take as much care that you have that will stop eventually
1:55:36the saltwater from winning. The ocean always wins. I would even go as far as to say like
1:55:40that, that applies to pretty much everything that you bring near the ocean. It's a, it's
1:55:44a highly corrosive environment. Uh, any, you know, it's full of salty air and moisture
1:55:50and gritty sand and like all the, like everything about going near the ocean is amazing for
1:55:58your mind and terrible for anything physical. So it's just, you know, anything that that
1:56:05is going to be near or on a beach, you are limiting its lifespan and that's just part
1:56:10of the deal. Anyway, thanks to our sponsors this week, Linode fracture and boosted boards,
1:56:17and we will see you next week.
1:56:19Now the show is over. They didn't even mean to begin because it was accidental. It was
1:56:30accidental. John didn't do any research. Marco and Casey wouldn't let him because it was
1:56:37accidental. It was accidental. And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM. And if you're
1:56:49into Twitter, you can follow them at C A S E Y L I S S. So that's Casey Liss M A R C
1:56:59O A R M N T. Marco Arman S I R A C U S A C. Rakuza. It's accidental. They didn't mean
1:57:14to accidental. Tech Bar cast so long. You know how many tabs I have open in Safari right
1:57:24now? I do not. What? Are you feeling okay? It's chrome. That's the issue is not dry.
1:57:30Close them when I'm done and I haven't been doing any major web. Here's the thing. This
1:57:34computer is getting far less use as it gets old. Right. I use it for podcast now and during
1:57:39the day if I need to do something like Peter, I use the iMac. So everything here has been
1:57:43closed except for like the tabs that I always leave open, you know, like Gmail and stats
1:57:48pages. I get to assume you said three that it was like it was like one of those charts
1:57:52that you see and at the bottom it says like millions. Just three. One window, three tabs.
1:58:02Chrome is one window, one, two, three, four tabs, five tabs. Times are changing. I know.
1:58:09It's not. If you go because if I go to the other computer, that is not true. If you go
1:58:13to my work computer, very not true. It's just because I'm not using this way. I would use
1:58:18it and close out the tabs that I would never open new ones. Like the biggest source of
1:58:22new tabs is like, you know, shopping research. What are they trying to do? My dog's even
1:58:26eating the coasters. So we're trying to find new coasters. That's a lot of tabs. I need
1:58:32to find like a dog proof coaster. It has to be acceptable to me but also not attractive
1:58:38for the dog. I've never had to solve that particular problem before. My dog is too low
1:58:43to reach coasters. I know. It's tricky. Like, you know, you just get once like a lot of
1:58:49ones that are not attractive for the dog or unacceptable to me. Like you get stone coasters
1:58:52but I don't like that. I don't like the feeling of putting a glass on stone. The ones that
1:58:56we have, which we got again, we got when we were married. We have a lot of things that
1:58:59we got when we were married that had lasted until the kids and our pets destroyed them.
1:59:04These have cork on them. Like you put the glass on cork and I love that feeling like
1:59:09the glasses, yeah, a glass of water on a little cork coaster.
1:59:12**Matt Stauffer** That is a nice feeling.
1:59:13**Brian Stauffer** But the dog likes wood. So what I want is
1:59:16like something that's like stone or metal with a cork insert for the glass but it like
1:59:21has a rim around it because you also need like the condensation not to leak out onto
1:59:24the thing. So it has to be slightly cup. You know, there has to be an indentation and in
1:59:28the indentation I want cork but I want the material to be totally non-dog attractive
1:59:32like a dog's not going to bite on a metal or stone thing. So I'm still working on it.
1:59:37Anyway, a lot of tabs.
1:59:38**Matt Stauffer** There are a lot of advantages to having a low
1:59:40dog.
1:59:41**Brian Stauffer** Low dog. A low dog that doesn't want to chew.
1:59:45My dog wants to chew. She's good. She doesn't chew most things but she's got a lot of her
1:59:50own chew toys. So every once in a while she'll be like, "Mmm, coaster."
1:59:52[BEEPING]