ATP

00:00:00 ◼   ► I gotta say, I'm a little bit scared of Skype right now.

00:00:03 ◼   ► - Right now?

00:00:05 ◼   ► - More than usual, because for the last, I don't know,

00:00:08 ◼   ► three, four weeks, Skype has popped up the box

00:00:11 ◼   ► about every few hours when it's open, saying,

00:00:14 ◼   ► Skype would like to install a helper tool

00:00:16 ◼   ► and to your password to allow this.

00:00:19 ◼   ► And normally, my rule with Skype is,

00:00:21 ◼   ► it's gonna do whatever it wants anyway,

00:00:23 ◼   ► so just let it do it right.

00:00:24 ◼   ► - Just embrace it.

00:00:26 ◼   ► - Yeah, 'cause I depend on Skype, I need it to work,

00:00:28 ◼   ► so normally I just let it do what it needs to do.

00:00:31 ◼   ► So the first couple of times I actually entered my password,

00:00:34 ◼   ► you know, it's the system dialog,

00:00:35 ◼   ► I actually enter my password and let it install

00:00:36 ◼   ► whatever helper tool it thinks it needs.

00:00:38 ◼   ► The problem is that that box just kept coming up.

00:00:41 ◼   ► And so eventually I got tired of entering my password

00:00:43 ◼   ► and just started hitting cancel on it.

00:00:45 ◼   ► And it's coming up at the same frequency

00:00:47 ◼   ► as when I was entering the password,

00:00:49 ◼   ► and nothing seems to be different or broken.

00:00:52 ◼   ► Nothing seems to be happening,

00:00:54 ◼   ► and everything seems to be working fine,

00:00:56 ◼   ► but I feel like something's going to explode

00:00:58 ◼   ► at any moment.

00:00:59 ◼   ► - Yeah, this is ominous.

00:01:02 ◼   ► - Or Skype has given me a virus and, you know,

00:01:04 ◼   ► there's no good outcome.

00:01:06 ◼   ► - Well now you've given it to me!

00:01:07 ◼   ► - Does that work that way?

00:01:08 ◼   ► - Yeah, by virtue of the Skype call,

00:01:10 ◼   ► now I have your virus, thanks a lot.

00:01:11 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:01:12 ◼   ► - It's like when Microsoft Office prompts me

00:01:14 ◼   ► to turn on auto-updates, and the choices

00:01:17 ◼   ► in the notification are turn on and not now.

00:01:20 ◼   ► And I get these on other people's accounts,

00:01:23 ◼   ► the shared 5K AMAC, and no matter what you hit,

00:01:26 ◼   ► it doesn't matter, you'll be seeing that notification

00:01:28 ◼   ► again in a day or two.

00:01:29 ◼   ► - Wonderful.

00:01:30 ◼   ► - Yeah, 'cause like your only option is like,

00:01:31 ◼   ► I want to do it later.

00:01:33 ◼   ► - No, but you can say turn on.

00:01:34 ◼   ► I do want auto-updates on.

00:01:36 ◼   ► I hit turn on.

00:01:37 ◼   ► It doesn't matter what you hit.

00:01:37 ◼   ► It's still going to come back later,

00:01:39 ◼   ► and it's going to say, you know, it doesn't matter.

00:01:41 ◼   ► It seems to do nothing.

00:01:43 ◼   ► On a shared computer, I always think it's because

00:01:45 ◼   ► like some weird ownership things,

00:01:46 ◼   ► 'cause the person who installed the app

00:01:48 ◼   ► is not the person who's getting prompted,

00:01:49 ◼   ► and what does it mean for every individual user

00:01:51 ◼   ► to have auto-updates on, and can those users

00:01:53 ◼   ► even auto-update an app that was installed

00:01:55 ◼   ► by another user, but you're on your own Mac,

00:01:57 ◼   ► and I'm assuming you installed Skype yourself,

00:01:59 ◼   ► so I don't know if that's the problem.

00:02:00 ◼   ► - You know, I didn't think about multi-user.

00:02:02 ◼   ► Tiff has a profile on this Mac with Skype

00:02:05 ◼   ► for when we're at the beach, and she's doing her podcasts.

00:02:07 ◼   ► - But did she install Skype, or maybe did she update it

00:02:09 ◼   ► last time she ran it?

00:02:10 ◼   ► Just see her on the Skype app to Marco, and see if that works.

00:02:14 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:02:16 ◼   ► I cannot believe we're actually doing this on the air.

00:02:18 ◼   ► - Skype.app.

00:02:20 ◼   ► It's root wheel.

00:02:22 ◼   ► - That seems wrong.

00:02:23 ◼   ► - Cool.

00:02:24 ◼   ► - Very, very wrong.

00:02:25 ◼   ► - It should be Marco staff.

00:02:28 ◼   ► - First of all, I've never seen a staff group on Mac OS.

00:02:31 ◼   ► - What?

00:02:32 ◼   ► - Well, you can do Marco admin, it doesn't matter, whatever.

00:02:34 ◼   ► - Let me list my home directory.

00:02:35 ◼   ► Oh, there it is, yeah, there's staff.

00:02:36 ◼   ► All right, so I guess staff is the default group.

00:02:38 ◼   ► - Oh, yeah, that is true.

00:02:39 ◼   ► What is wheel?

00:02:40 ◼   ► I thought you were crazy.

00:02:41 ◼   ► What the hell is wheel?

00:02:43 ◼   ► - It's the group for root.

00:02:44 ◼   ► Don't worry about it.

00:02:45 ◼   ► - I'm actually kind of curious.

00:02:46 ◼   ► I've seen that on servers and stuff.

00:02:48 ◼   ► I have no idea where, where does that come from?

00:02:50 ◼   ► - Why, is it called wheel?

00:02:51 ◼   ► That's a bit of Unix history I don't actually know,

00:02:53 ◼   ► but it is called wheel.

00:02:55 ◼   ► Wheel, noun, from slang, big wheel, for a powerful person,

00:02:59 ◼   ► a person who has an active wheel bit.

00:03:00 ◼   ► The traditional name of security group zero in BSD

00:03:02 ◼   ► to which the major system internal users

00:03:04 ◼   ► like root belong is wheel.

00:03:05 ◼   ► - That is a terrible origin story.

00:03:07 ◼   ► I was hoping it was something more interesting.

00:03:09 ◼   ► - Origins, the term wheel was first applied

00:03:11 ◼   ► to computer user privilege levels after the introduction

00:03:13 ◼   ► of the 10x operating system.

00:03:15 ◼   ► - It's pronounced 10-10.

00:03:17 ◼   ► - I can't even tell if you're messing with me right now.

00:03:19 ◼   ► In the early 60s, in the 60s and early 70s,

00:03:21 ◼   ► the term was derived from the slang phrase big wheel,

00:03:23 ◼   ► referring to a person with great power or influence, see?

00:03:25 ◼   ► Stack exchange was right.

00:03:27 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's those same websites say that slash US-star

00:03:30 ◼   ► stands for like Unix system resources or some stuff

00:03:32 ◼   ► and it does not, it's short for user.

00:03:35 ◼   ► - Yeah, this wheel thing, this is a terrible story.

00:03:37 ◼   ► I was hoping maybe it was like W heal

00:03:39 ◼   ► and there was something more interesting about it

00:03:41 ◼   ► or something, who knows, right?

00:03:43 ◼   ► That's too bad.

00:03:44 ◼   ► - W heal.

00:03:45 ◼   ► - I don't know.

00:03:46 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:03:47 ◼   ► - Oh, I just got the box again, what should I do?

00:03:49 ◼   ► I'm gonna hit cancel.

00:03:50 ◼   ► I'm doing it, I'm doing it.

00:03:51 ◼   ► Cancel.

00:03:52 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:03:55 ◼   ► This is my life.

00:03:56 ◼   ► It's very exciting.

00:03:58 ◼   ► (electronic beeping)

00:03:59 ◼   ► - So why don't we switch into FaceTime audio for this thing?

00:04:02 ◼   ► - Never.

00:04:03 ◼   ► - As soon as we switch to iCloud Drive

00:04:04 ◼   ► and their new shared folder support instead of Dropbox.

00:04:07 ◼   ► - Yeah, I haven't knowingly seen this new,

00:04:10 ◼   ► further ruined Dropbox yet, but I'm already dreading it.

00:04:13 ◼   ► - Dropbox is really making people mad.

00:04:15 ◼   ► I mean, Dropbox has always been like

00:04:18 ◼   ► an incredibly hellish client app

00:04:19 ◼   ► that happened to achieve good functionality

00:04:21 ◼   ► and we tolerated it, but the client Dropbox app

00:04:24 ◼   ► has always been a total piece of garbage

00:04:25 ◼   ► from a technical level, and it's always been

00:04:28 ◼   ► amazingly wasteful of system resources.

00:04:30 ◼   ► And it seems like not only did they just raise their prices,

00:04:32 ◼   ► which everyone's mad about, but also now

00:04:34 ◼   ► they have this additional problem of the app

00:04:36 ◼   ► is now bundling all of Chromium

00:04:39 ◼   ► and taking like half a gig extra.

00:04:42 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:04:43 ◼   ► - Hey, have I told you about WorkChat?

00:04:44 ◼   ► WorkChat is excellent.

00:04:45 ◼   ► - You don't have a job anymore, what are you talking about?

00:04:47 ◼   ► You don't need this stuff.

00:04:48 ◼   ► - No, I'm talking about Evernote,

00:04:49 ◼   ► 'cause Evernote has gone down this road as well,

00:04:51 ◼   ► and it's just not good, not good.

00:04:54 ◼   ► - Remember, I don't know, maybe a year ago

00:04:55 ◼   ► I tried to drop Dropbox and looked into

00:04:58 ◼   ► what that would take, and one of the things was,

00:05:00 ◼   ► one of the reasons I, I guess picked it back up,

00:05:03 ◼   ► is that there was no shared folder support

00:05:06 ◼   ► on iCloud Drive, and so many people like you guys

00:05:09 ◼   ► who I deal with are, the way we deal with each other

00:05:12 ◼   ► and pass files around is through Dropbox shared folders.

00:05:15 ◼   ► So it seemed almost impossible to totally get off Dropbox

00:05:19 ◼   ► until they had, until iCloud Drive had shared folders.

00:05:22 ◼   ► Now it will, I guess, I mean, I'm not running the beta yet,

00:05:25 ◼   ► but like once everyone's on the new versions,

00:05:27 ◼   ► like this fall, we will have shared folders.

00:05:30 ◼   ► They might even work, and so if they actually work

00:05:33 ◼   ► acceptably, I think a lot of us could drop Dropbox finally,

00:05:37 ◼   ► but I don't know, there's so much network lock-in,

00:05:41 ◼   ► I have a feeling it's gonna be really hard

00:05:43 ◼   ► for some people to totally get rid of it.

00:05:45 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:05:46 ◼   ► - There's some vaguely Dropbox-related stuff

00:05:49 ◼   ► in the topic list today.

00:05:50 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:05:51 ◼   ► - I'm excited.

00:05:53 ◼   ► - I'm a little scared.

00:05:54 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:05:55 ◼   ► - That's a tiny item, lots of small items today.

00:05:58 ◼   ► - Yeah, speaking of small items, I'm finally

00:06:01 ◼   ► actually diving in more in Swift.

00:06:03 ◼   ► - Yeah, and?

00:06:05 ◼   ► - How's that a small item?

00:06:07 ◼   ► - Yeah, right.

00:06:08 ◼   ► - It's a big, big item.

00:06:09 ◼   ► - I keep running into things that remind me

00:06:11 ◼   ► just how much of a dick Swift is.

00:06:14 ◼   ► It's such a dick.

00:06:15 ◼   ► But I think what I've come around to is that,

00:06:18 ◼   ► you know, some people are dicks,

00:06:20 ◼   ► and I don't wanna associate with them.

00:06:22 ◼   ► I'm also friends with a lot of people who are dicks.

00:06:24 ◼   ► And the ones that are my friends,

00:06:27 ◼   ► I have chosen to be like, you know what,

00:06:29 ◼   ► I recognize you're a dick, but I like you for other reasons,

00:06:31 ◼   ► and you're my friend, and so I will tolerate

00:06:33 ◼   ► your dickishness because you're my friend.

00:06:36 ◼   ► - You know I'm on the call with you, right?

00:06:37 ◼   ► - That's the kind of relationship,

00:06:39 ◼   ► that's the kind of relationship that I think

00:06:41 ◼   ► I need to have with Swift now.

00:06:42 ◼   ► Like, Swift is a dick, but I have to be its friend

00:06:46 ◼   ► for lots of other reasons.

00:06:47 ◼   ► And there are parts of it I like.

00:06:49 ◼   ► You know, even your dickie friends can be nice sometimes.

00:06:51 ◼   ► And so there are parts of it I like,

00:06:52 ◼   ► and so I have to get over that and just embrace it

00:06:57 ◼   ► for its full dickitude and just be 100% okay with,

00:07:01 ◼   ► you know what, Swift is my friend now,

00:07:04 ◼   ► and yes, it's a dick a lot of the time,

00:07:06 ◼   ► but it's still my friend, and so I have to stand up for it,

00:07:08 ◼   ► I have to support it, and I have to use it.

00:07:10 ◼   ► - So you're spending all this time complaining about Swift,

00:07:12 ◼   ► and while you were doing that, I wrote a Mac app in Swift,

00:07:15 ◼   ► so I don't know what's taking you so long.

00:07:16 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:07:18 ◼   ► - Swift didn't bother me at all.

00:07:20 ◼   ► - What is your Mac app?

00:07:21 ◼   ► Are you talking about the extension?

00:07:22 ◼   ► - My, but you have to, Safari extensions

00:07:24 ◼   ► have to be in apps now, so I have to make an app

00:07:26 ◼   ► to wrap around the one line of code

00:07:28 ◼   ► that constitutes my reload extension.

00:07:30 ◼   ► Page.reload, open, close parens.

00:07:33 ◼   ► That is the code of my application.

00:07:34 ◼   ► I just read it on the air, it's open source now.

00:07:36 ◼   ► The whole rest of it is, how do you make

00:07:39 ◼   ► a notarized Mac application starting from zero,

00:07:42 ◼   ► and that is a surprising amount of work,

00:07:46 ◼   ► if you've never done it before, which I haven't.

00:07:47 ◼   ► - So you enlisted Marco to fix all your problems?

00:07:49 ◼   ► - No, I just read webpages, like it's not difficult,

00:07:53 ◼   ► but Xcode sure doesn't help you.

00:07:54 ◼   ► I was saying in Slack that I think it needs more wizards,

00:07:57 ◼   ► it needs more like, you're gonna make an app,

00:08:00 ◼   ► here are the 9,000 things you're gonna need.

00:08:02 ◼   ► Don't make me go like Keychain Access

00:08:04 ◼   ► and make a certificate signing request.

00:08:06 ◼   ► You can do all that, you're the computer, just do it all.

00:08:09 ◼   ► Like you know what I need, like just do all the things.

00:08:12 ◼   ► And you know, I'm going to the website,

00:08:13 ◼   ► I'm going to Keychain Access, I'm going to Xcode,

00:08:16 ◼   ► and in every step of the way, there's like one wrong turn,

00:08:19 ◼   ► like it could lead you into a dead end

00:08:22 ◼   ► that's not gonna get you anywhere.

00:08:23 ◼   ► One of the web instructions was like,

00:08:24 ◼   ► this thing is gonna pop up, this dialog box

00:08:26 ◼   ► is gonna pop up, hit cancel.

00:08:28 ◼   ► Like the dialog is offering to do something

00:08:30 ◼   ► that sounds useful, and normally you just say okay,

00:08:33 ◼   ► but no, you have to hit cancel if you hit okay.

00:08:35 ◼   ► Anyway, yeah, so you build this Mac app that does nothing,

00:08:40 ◼   ► and inside it you bury this other little extension

00:08:42 ◼   ► that does one simple thing.

00:08:45 ◼   ► Yeah, the most difficult part was getting us code working

00:08:47 ◼   ► and getting signing working, and the second most difficult

00:08:49 ◼   ► part was making PDF graphic because my 2x bitmap graphic

00:08:53 ◼   ► from the old reload button is no longer acceptable.

00:08:55 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:08:57 ◼   ► - The struggle.

00:08:58 ◼   ► You know, I can't, I just, it's hard for me

00:09:01 ◼   ► to wrap my head around anyone, but particularly you, John,

00:09:05 ◼   ► being this set in your ways that you can't just hit Command R.

00:09:08 ◼   ► Like, is it that hard?

00:09:09 ◼   ► - I can't Command R all the time.

00:09:11 ◼   ► - Then why do you need a (bleep) button?

00:09:13 ◼   ► - Every once in a while I hit the reload button

00:09:15 ◼   ► with my mouse because I sometimes use the mouse.

00:09:17 ◼   ► Have you ever used the mouse when you use a computer?

00:09:19 ◼   ► - Nope, never, not once.

00:09:21 ◼   ► - Sometimes my hand is on the mouse and my pointer

00:09:23 ◼   ► is near that section of the screen or I'm doing something

00:09:26 ◼   ► else and I hit the reload button.

00:09:28 ◼   ► Sometimes I hit Command R.

00:09:29 ◼   ► - I don't think I ever even click anywhere

00:09:31 ◼   ► near the address bar.

00:09:32 ◼   ► - Yeah, you're a Command L person for life.

00:09:34 ◼   ► - Yeah, oh yeah.

00:09:35 ◼   ► - Wait, but hold on a second.

00:09:36 ◼   ► Why do you not hit the button in the, what you call 'em,

00:09:40 ◼   ► the URL field?

00:09:41 ◼   ► - Because it's in the wrong place and my cursor

00:09:42 ◼   ► is never over there.

00:09:44 ◼   ► - Oh my God, so you have two buttons just to hit reload?

00:09:47 ◼   ► - Well, I can't get rid of the other reload button.

00:09:49 ◼   ► - Oh my God, John.

00:09:50 ◼   ► - It's also because, so I've always had back forward reload.

00:09:53 ◼   ► Chrome has back forward reload.

00:09:55 ◼   ► Every version of Safari, until they shoved it

00:09:57 ◼   ► into the address bar, has had back forward reload.

00:09:59 ◼   ► I'm just used to the buttons being over there.

00:10:02 ◼   ► - I just, if this were me, if this were me,

00:10:05 ◼   ► and God help me, I hope this gets released.

00:10:07 ◼   ► Can I just put it on record?

00:10:08 ◼   ► I'm actually in a very good mood, but I would also like

00:10:10 ◼   ► to put on record that if this were me saying these things,

00:10:13 ◼   ► the whole of the ATP listenership would say,

00:10:15 ◼   ► what is wrong with you, Casey?

00:10:17 ◼   ► Get over it and embrace 2016.

00:10:20 ◼   ► - This reload button is not a new thing

00:10:22 ◼   ► and every time I mention people like, oh thank God,

00:10:25 ◼   ► I hate that reload button in the address bar.

00:10:26 ◼   ► People thank me profusely for this one line application

00:10:30 ◼   ► that reloads web pages badly.

00:10:31 ◼   ► That's it.

00:10:32 ◼   ► In this case, I'm not the only one.

00:10:36 ◼   ► If you don't want it, then you don't have to use it.

00:10:38 ◼   ► - Well, because you can do no wrong.

00:10:39 ◼   ► - It's just that, I mean, there is a method to the madness.

00:10:43 ◼   ► Like, back-forward reload is the standard way

00:10:45 ◼   ► if you use multiple browsers, if you're used to the buttons

00:10:47 ◼   ► being over there and you wish the button was back there,

00:10:49 ◼   ► you can do that.

00:10:50 ◼   ► It's the whole point of the toolbar and extensions

00:10:52 ◼   ► and why you can customize it.

00:10:53 ◼   ► So you can make the toolbar the way you want it.

00:10:55 ◼   ► I don't know what your toolbar looks like, whatever.

00:10:57 ◼   ► - It's certainly within your rights.

00:10:58 ◼   ► I'm not trying to like say that you're not allowed

00:11:00 ◼   ► to do this, but--

00:11:01 ◼   ► - And it's not ridiculous.

00:11:02 ◼   ► It's not a ridiculous notion.

00:11:03 ◼   ► I mean, there is a reload button.

00:11:04 ◼   ► - I'll say it, you aren't allowed to do this.

00:11:05 ◼   ► This is a terrible idea.

00:11:07 ◼   ► - I mean, it is a terrible idea, but you do you, man.

00:11:09 ◼   ► I just can't fathom that you would, you of all people

00:11:12 ◼   ► would look at two reload buttons in the same window.

00:11:15 ◼   ► How do you, how is that okay?

00:11:16 ◼   ► - The other one isn't a button.

00:11:17 ◼   ► The other one is a tiny glyph way in the inside

00:11:20 ◼   ► of the header's bar that you don't even notice.

00:11:22 ◼   ► - Jon, I love you so much,

00:11:23 ◼   ► but you are out of your damn mind.

00:11:25 ◼   ► I'm just like, how often are you reloading pages

00:11:28 ◼   ► and your hands aren't near the keyboard?

00:11:30 ◼   ► - Yeah, I've never do web development

00:11:32 ◼   ► a surprising amount of time, apparently.

00:11:34 ◼   ► Like, it's not like I don't use Command R.

00:11:35 ◼   ► I'm sure I use Command R more than the reload button,

00:11:38 ◼   ► but when I do use the reload button,

00:11:39 ◼   ► I want it to be where I want it to be.

00:11:41 ◼   ► - And having it where you want it to be,

00:11:44 ◼   ► resulting in this hilariously complex setup,

00:11:48 ◼   ► and also, then you have two reload buttons on screen.

00:11:51 ◼   ► Isn't that worse?

00:11:53 ◼   ► Doesn't that bother you on a fundamental level?

00:11:54 ◼   ► - Right!

00:11:55 ◼   ► - So the other one isn't a button.

00:11:56 ◼   ► It's a tiny little glyph.

00:11:58 ◼   ► - It is not a tiny little glyph!

00:11:59 ◼   ► - It's a tiny little glyph.

00:12:00 ◼   ► It's like smaller than the little lock symbol.

00:12:03 ◼   ► I don't even see it.

00:12:05 ◼   ► It is invisible.

00:12:06 ◼   ► - Let me start Xscope,

00:12:07 ◼   ► and let's see how small this tiny little glyph is.

00:12:09 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's certainly not a button.

00:12:11 ◼   ► It's not like it has its own outline.

00:12:12 ◼   ► It is just tucked into the corner of the address bar.

00:12:15 ◼   ► Anyway, I hadn't, like, it broke in Safari 12 or whatever,

00:12:18 ◼   ► 'cause, like, you had to load it manually.

00:12:19 ◼   ► Remember, we talked about it in the show.

00:12:20 ◼   ► And I was like, well, whatever, I'm not gonna bother with it.

00:12:22 ◼   ► But then, when it became clear that I actually

00:12:25 ◼   ► can resurrect it if I go through this pain,

00:12:27 ◼   ► I was waiting and waiting, and then finally,

00:12:28 ◼   ► like, Safari 13 isn't gonna support the old ones at all.

00:12:31 ◼   ► Right, so I figured I would bite the bullet and resurrect it.

00:12:35 ◼   ► And many people have thanked me for resurrecting it,

00:12:38 ◼   ► because they too want to move over a reload button,

00:12:41 ◼   ► for whatever reason.

00:12:42 ◼   ► I remember I did it, I did it originally kind of as a joke

00:12:45 ◼   ► when Safari extensions came out.

00:12:46 ◼   ► It's like, what is the simplest extension

00:12:48 ◼   ► you could possibly make?

00:12:49 ◼   ► And I'm like, well, a reload button.

00:12:50 ◼   ► I think it was their example or something.

00:12:53 ◼   ► And it was actually more complicated before.

00:12:54 ◼   ► The app extensions, you just, you get an SF Safari page,

00:12:58 ◼   ► whatever, view, and you just call reload on it.

00:13:00 ◼   ► The old way, you had to inject a script,

00:13:02 ◼   ► and the script had to remember the scroll position,

00:13:05 ◼   ► reload the page, and reset the scroll position.

00:13:07 ◼   ► So it was a little bit silly.

00:13:08 ◼   ► - This is 22 points wide by 26 points tall.

00:13:12 ◼   ► - It's not a button though, is it?

00:13:13 ◼   ► - Can you click it?

00:13:14 ◼   ► Then it's a button.

00:13:15 ◼   ► - You can click all sorts of things.

00:13:16 ◼   ► - Oh my God.

00:13:17 ◼   ► - You can click a checkbox, checkbox isn't a button.

00:13:19 ◼   ► - And a matter of speaking, it is.

00:13:21 ◼   ► - You can click a text field, text field isn't a button.

00:13:23 ◼   ► - I think, aren't some of these actually buttons,

00:13:25 ◼   ► like at the AppKit level?

00:13:27 ◼   ► - Well, where's the Accessibility Inspector?

00:13:29 ◼   ► Hold on, where's Accessibility Inspector?

00:13:31 ◼   ► How do I start that bad boy up?

00:13:32 ◼   ► Let me see what this says.

00:13:33 ◼   ► - Oh, I need to add a tool tip because,

00:13:35 ◼   ► oh, I already have a tool tip, nevermind.

00:13:36 ◼   ► - Reload this page, button.

00:13:38 ◼   ► Label, reload this page, title, reload this page,

00:13:40 ◼   ► value nil, type, button.

00:13:43 ◼   ► - For accessibility purposes, sure, it's a button.

00:13:45 ◼   ► How is he gonna describe it?

00:13:46 ◼   ► - Oh God, Jon, really?

00:13:48 ◼   ► Are you trying to get me out of technicality on this?

00:13:50 ◼   ► - Did you remember that this is a button thing

00:13:52 ◼   ► for the Neven Murgon made

00:13:53 ◼   ► that I concluded one of my OS X reviews?

00:13:56 ◼   ► How buttony are your buttons?

00:13:57 ◼   ► - Oh my God.

00:13:58 ◼   ► - What color is your parachute?

00:14:00 ◼   ► - Can we move on to follow up?

00:14:01 ◼   ► I'd never thought I'd be this excited to get to follow up.

00:14:03 ◼   ► I'm gonna need to get a drink or start some follow up,

00:14:05 ◼   ► one or the other.

00:14:07 ◼   ► I love you, Jon.

00:14:08 ◼   ► Oh my God.

00:14:08 ◼   ► - By the way, I just verified that in the app kit,

00:14:12 ◼   ► check boxes are indeed NS button instances.

00:14:14 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:14:16 ◼   ► - Score one for me.

00:14:17 ◼   ► - Yeah, well, that's just a base class.

00:14:19 ◼   ► That's not a--

00:14:19 ◼   ► - Oh God, you were going, technicality's all the way down.

00:14:23 ◼   ► - Go look in the Apple Human Interface guidelines.

00:14:26 ◼   ► It will say buttons, check boxes,

00:14:28 ◼   ► pop up whatever they call them.

00:14:30 ◼   ► You know what I mean.

00:14:31 ◼   ► - That's the technical term, of course.

00:14:33 ◼   ► - Oh God, Jon.

00:14:34 ◼   ► I love you so much.

00:14:36 ◼   ► Oh my God.

00:14:37 ◼   ► All right, let's do some follow up.

00:14:39 ◼   ► And it starts with some ASCII art apps.

00:14:41 ◼   ► And I thought we talked about at least one of these

00:14:44 ◼   ► in the past, did we not?

00:14:46 ◼   ► Maybe not, I don't know.

00:14:46 ◼   ► - No, I think I got bumped for the live show.

00:14:48 ◼   ► - Oh, is that what it was?

00:14:49 ◼   ► Okay, so in any case, there are two ASCII art apps

00:14:53 ◼   ► that were called to our attention.

00:14:55 ◼   ► The context here is doing ASCII art in comments,

00:14:59 ◼   ► which I find to be delightful.

00:15:00 ◼   ► Not everyone does, but I do.

00:15:02 ◼   ► And there's two options that we have been turned on to

00:15:05 ◼   ► from various people, one of which is Monodraw,

00:15:08 ◼   ► which is a Mac app, it's specifically for the Mac,

00:15:11 ◼   ► and it looks extremely full featured.

00:15:13 ◼   ► I think it's shareware, it's a free trial

00:15:17 ◼   ► by license sort of situation.

00:15:19 ◼   ► I haven't tried it, to be honest,

00:15:20 ◼   ► but it looks really and truly incredible.

00:15:22 ◼   ► - I have, it's amazing.

00:15:24 ◼   ► - There you go.

00:15:25 ◼   ► - I think it's only $10.

00:15:25 ◼   ► I immediately bought it once I saw it,

00:15:27 ◼   ► because actually it feels very similar to PaintCode

00:15:30 ◼   ► in a lot of the basic design structure of it,

00:15:33 ◼   ► which I guess is kind of just Mac standard.

00:15:35 ◼   ► It is delightful.

00:15:37 ◼   ► To be able to just draw out ASCII art

00:15:40 ◼   ► as if it's a drawing tool,

00:15:41 ◼   ► and it behaves a lot like a drawing tool.

00:15:43 ◼   ► There's a fill tool, there's different shapes,

00:15:45 ◼   ► and different line strokes and everything

00:15:48 ◼   ► all generating this ASCII stuff.

00:15:50 ◼   ► It's kind of amazing.

00:15:51 ◼   ► I don't really have so much use for this kind of app

00:15:55 ◼   ► that I really needed to buy it,

00:15:57 ◼   ► but I bought it because it's just delightful.

00:15:59 ◼   ► It just makes me smile.

00:16:01 ◼   ► As a nerd and as a Mac user and as a programmer,

00:16:04 ◼   ► all three of those things, this app makes me smile.

00:16:06 ◼   ► And so it was definitely worth the $10.

00:16:09 ◼   ► And even if I never launch it again,

00:16:11 ◼   ► which is unlikely, honestly,

00:16:12 ◼   ► I think I will probably try to find reasons to use it,

00:16:14 ◼   ► but even if I never launch it again,

00:16:16 ◼   ► I'm just so happy this app exists.

00:16:18 ◼   ► I'm so happy to give them 10 bucks.

00:16:20 ◼   ► It's delightful.

00:16:21 ◼   ► - Yeah, this is like the good old days of Mac apps

00:16:23 ◼   ► where there would be a high quality native Mac app

00:16:26 ◼   ► that someone sweated over every detail of

00:16:29 ◼   ► for insert ridiculous purpose here.

00:16:31 ◼   ► Whatever it was, whatever you wanted it to be,

00:16:33 ◼   ► whether it was like software for dealing

00:16:35 ◼   ► with a dentist's office or thing to track your workouts

00:16:38 ◼   ► or just a thing to explore old maps.

00:16:41 ◼   ► Some person somewhere loved that thing so much

00:16:44 ◼   ► and was a Mac developer and made this amazing app.

00:16:46 ◼   ► Not like just a junky thing that someone threw together

00:16:49 ◼   ► that sort of works, but like a polished application

00:16:52 ◼   ► that they sold on their websites for a reasonable fee.

00:16:54 ◼   ► This is totally a throwback to those days.

00:16:57 ◼   ► - It is very cool looking having not even tried it.

00:17:00 ◼   ► And then additionally, there's a web-based tool

00:17:02 ◼   ► called ASCII Flow, and we will have both these links

00:17:05 ◼   ► in the show notes.

00:17:06 ◼   ► I was just trying it and Marco will fix it in post,

00:17:08 ◼   ► but I dropped my Apple pencil on my desk

00:17:10 ◼   ► 'cause I was trying to use this.

00:17:12 ◼   ► I was trying to use this with the pencil

00:17:14 ◼   ► and it is slightly clunky, but it is workable on the iPad.

00:17:17 ◼   ► But anyway, this is obviously a free app.

00:17:18 ◼   ► It looks a lot less fancy than Monodraw is,

00:17:21 ◼   ► but if you favor something free and less fancy and less good

00:17:25 ◼   ► this is also an option, so this is called ASCII Flow Infinity.

00:17:29 ◼   ► Also very cool, and it's cool to see that done on the web.

00:17:32 ◼   ► So two very, very neat apps

00:17:34 ◼   ► if you wanted to be an ASCII artist.

00:17:38 ◼   ► - Yeah, this is the flip side of that.

00:17:39 ◼   ► The beauty of the web is you might need something,

00:17:41 ◼   ► but you don't have time to or don't want to install software

00:17:44 ◼   ► and something like, well, this is simple enough.

00:17:46 ◼   ► Can I just do this somewhere on the web right now?

00:17:47 ◼   ► You just go to asciiflow.com.

00:17:50 ◼   ► Instantly you're in the app and you can start using it.

00:17:53 ◼   ► I'm sure it's less powerful than the native app,

00:17:54 ◼   ► but it's nice to have, you know, it's the best of both worlds.

00:17:57 ◼   ► The web is available everywhere,

00:17:59 ◼   ► accessible to everybody, and often free.

00:18:01 ◼   ► And then if it's something you really care about

00:18:03 ◼   ► having a polished native app is great.

00:18:05 ◼   ► - Excellent.

00:18:06 ◼   ► We have more information about the thing

00:18:08 ◼   ► that Marco and I are still skeptical

00:18:10 ◼   ► is called the blending stump,

00:18:13 ◼   ► but a video from Landon Epps indicates

00:18:15 ◼   ► that it's also a lasso tool because why not?

00:18:19 ◼   ► - I don't know if it's also a lasso tool.

00:18:21 ◼   ► It might only be a lasso tool.

00:18:22 ◼   ► Like, I don't know what it's called.

00:18:23 ◼   ► I've never heard anyone from Apple name it.

00:18:25 ◼   ► I asked somebody, remember when you were there with me,

00:18:27 ◼   ► I asked someone in the Mac Pro demo room,

00:18:29 ◼   ► what is that tool called?

00:18:30 ◼   ► They had no idea, but it just looks like a lasso tool.

00:18:33 ◼   ► I don't know if it does blending at all.

00:18:35 ◼   ► I'm very confused by this tool.

00:18:37 ◼   ► It is a fairly faithful rendition of a blending stump,

00:18:41 ◼   ► but in this video that we will link in the show notes

00:18:43 ◼   ► in someone's tweet, you can see that all it does

00:18:45 ◼   ► is sort of a magic selection type thing,

00:18:47 ◼   ► and you get little crawling ant borders

00:18:49 ◼   ► around the thing that you've selected.

00:18:51 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:18:53 ◼   ► That's what it's called.

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00:21:03 ◼   ► - You know, can we use this moment now a week on?

00:21:10 ◼   ► What are you guys most excited about?

00:21:12 ◼   ► I know we're gonna talk about some of these things later.

00:21:15 ◼   ► There'll be some file system talk later, don't you worry.

00:21:17 ◼   ► But what are you guys most excited about?

00:21:19 ◼   ► Because I've started digging into Combine,

00:21:22 ◼   ► which as I think I said last week at the live show,

00:21:24 ◼   ► I keep trying to call Combine.

00:21:26 ◼   ► But anyway, I've dug into that some,

00:21:29 ◼   ► and I'm still very excited about it.

00:21:31 ◼   ► Although I'm in the,

00:21:32 ◼   ► this is not meeting all my hopes and dreams stage

00:21:34 ◼   ► of learning it, which is fine.

00:21:36 ◼   ► That's part of the process.

00:21:37 ◼   ► But SwiftUI I have also dabbled with a little bit.

00:21:41 ◼   ► And again, it's not meeting all my hopes and dreams,

00:21:43 ◼   ► but it is very shiny and very cool.

00:21:47 ◼   ► So I think my two favorite,

00:21:48 ◼   ► oh, and actually I need a third favorite,

00:21:51 ◼   ► the new Collection View layout stuff.

00:21:53 ◼   ► What is it called?

00:21:54 ◼   ► Collection View Compositional Layout or something like that?

00:21:57 ◼   ► I forget exactly what it's called,

00:21:58 ◼   ► but that looks incredible.

00:22:02 ◼   ► So I think those are my top three.

00:22:04 ◼   ► I probably could come up with a four

00:22:05 ◼   ► if we wanted to stay on brand.

00:22:06 ◼   ► But I mean, I guess staying on brand

00:22:08 ◼   ► is not coming up with all four of them.

00:22:10 ◼   ► Anyway, Marco, what are your favorite,

00:22:13 ◼   ► you know, one, two, three or four things a week on

00:22:15 ◼   ► that you heard about?

00:22:17 ◼   ► - Honestly, I haven't had a lot of time

00:22:19 ◼   ► to actually dive into the technical side of this,

00:22:22 ◼   ► so I could change my mind once I find

00:22:24 ◼   ► some of these things might be not what I thought they were

00:22:27 ◼   ► or they might not be ready yet

00:22:28 ◼   ► or they might be more limited than I think.

00:22:30 ◼   ► But at the moment, I am super into the idea

00:22:32 ◼   ► of using SwiftUI, especially on the watch.

00:22:35 ◼   ► You know, like the SwiftUI project,

00:22:38 ◼   ► formally rumored as the name Amber,

00:22:40 ◼   ► started on the watch.

00:22:41 ◼   ► And it shows.

00:22:43 ◼   ► The watch is what needed it most badly

00:22:46 ◼   ► and it shines clearly so much on the watch.

00:22:49 ◼   ► And it's just so much better than WatchKit.

00:22:52 ◼   ► And so even if, like you know, right now,

00:22:55 ◼   ► SwiftUI, it's very early days for it.

00:22:57 ◼   ► It's very limited probably in what it can do.

00:23:00 ◼   ► You're still gonna have to be calling out a lot

00:23:01 ◼   ► to like UIKit views or controllers to do certain things.

00:23:06 ◼   ► But on the watch, it's such a small problem space

00:23:08 ◼   ► that it's like an even better fit

00:23:10 ◼   ► for something that is so new and probably

00:23:12 ◼   ► is gonna start out so basic.

00:23:14 ◼   ► So I'm very much looking forward to using that

00:23:17 ◼   ► and replacing my watch app, which I, you know,

00:23:19 ◼   ► every May, I tell myself, I hope I don't have to rewrite

00:23:24 ◼   ► my watch app this summer.

00:23:25 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:23:26 ◼   ► Because I hate working on my watch app and whatever.

00:23:29 ◼   ► And then June comes around and I get some awesome new thing

00:23:32 ◼   ► in the SDK and I'm like, I should really rewrite

00:23:34 ◼   ► the watch app because it can be so much better now.

00:23:37 ◼   ► And this is the biggest year for that

00:23:40 ◼   ► that there has ever been.

00:23:42 ◼   ► It can now be way better than even it was.

00:23:44 ◼   ► Like, you know, last year I was able to add

00:23:46 ◼   ► offline playback that actually worked reliably.

00:23:49 ◼   ► But the files didn't transfer reliably.

00:23:51 ◼   ► So like the audio part was there last year,

00:23:53 ◼   ► but I couldn't do streaming and I might still

00:23:56 ◼   ► not be able to do it, I don't know yet,

00:23:58 ◼   ► depending on what the API is.

00:23:59 ◼   ► But there is just so much more now that I can do in the UI

00:24:04 ◼   ► and so much more easily and just so much nicer.

00:24:08 ◼   ► Like, I've never been happy with the interface

00:24:10 ◼   ► of my watch app.

00:24:10 ◼   ► It's been crap and it's just different degrees of crap.

00:24:13 ◼   ► And it's always been very limiting with what I could do

00:24:15 ◼   ► because it was all like this very small set of watch kit

00:24:17 ◼   ► tools that you were actually allowed to use

00:24:19 ◼   ► and they weren't very good and they had weird behaviors

00:24:21 ◼   ► and weird bugs and weird things you had to do

00:24:24 ◼   ► to make them work at all.

00:24:26 ◼   ► And so having a big reset switch on that is huge for me.

00:24:30 ◼   ► And it's also, it's also just gonna be like a nice

00:24:32 ◼   ► like small attack surface on which I can learn

00:24:36 ◼   ► Swift and Swift UI a lot better before I like bring it

00:24:39 ◼   ► to like my big app.

00:24:41 ◼   ► - Fair enough.

00:24:42 ◼   ► John, I know it may or may not be as directly applicable

00:24:45 ◼   ► to you, but what are you still excited for?

00:24:47 ◼   ► Or maybe newly excited for?

00:24:50 ◼   ► - I'm still excited for the Mac Pro, that's my number one.

00:24:52 ◼   ► - Of course.

00:24:53 ◼   ► - My number two is Swift UI, which I also haven't really

00:24:58 ◼   ► dug into, but not so much for what Swift UI is,

00:25:00 ◼   ► but what it will become.

00:25:02 ◼   ► I'm finally getting a chance to see how it was implemented

00:25:06 ◼   ► under the covers, which I'm subscribed to,

00:25:10 ◼   ► I was subscribed to Swift evolution when it was

00:25:11 ◼   ► a mailing list and I do stop by the forums these days

00:25:14 ◼   ► and try to keep track of the various Swift evolution

00:25:17 ◼   ► proposals.

00:25:19 ◼   ► If I had to been on top of them more,

00:25:21 ◼   ► I could have better predicted what Swift UI would be.

00:25:23 ◼   ► And I'm sure people who were on top of Swift evolution more

00:25:26 ◼   ► probably did predict what Swift UI would be.

00:25:29 ◼   ► But suffice it to say that it uses a bunch of features

00:25:32 ◼   ► that landed in Swift in the past year, year and a half.

00:25:37 ◼   ► That are essential for making it work.

00:25:39 ◼   ► And it's those features that I'm most interested in

00:25:40 ◼   ► to see how other people can make APIs like this

00:25:43 ◼   ► and to see how Swift UI is going to evolve.

00:25:45 ◼   ► And then third place, I don't even know.

00:25:48 ◼   ► Like it's all, my head is entirely filled with Mac Pro

00:25:50 ◼   ► and Swift UI at this point.

00:25:52 ◼   ► - Fair enough.

00:25:54 ◼   ► So let's carry on where we left off last week,

00:25:57 ◼   ► carry on my wayward son.

00:25:58 ◼   ► Let's talk about everyone's favorite topic, APFS.

00:26:02 ◼   ► - You're gonna complain that Marco and I didn't know

00:26:04 ◼   ► that was a reference, 'cause we totally did.

00:26:05 ◼   ► We don't tell you the obvious ones, just so you know.

00:26:08 ◼   ► - Okay.

00:26:09 ◼   ► Usually that doesn't happen until well after the show.

00:26:10 ◼   ► Like a few days later--

00:26:11 ◼   ► - Like when I nip it in the buds,

00:26:12 ◼   ► I don't have to do 100 people saying,

00:26:14 ◼   ► "He's a carry on my wayward son, you didn't say anything.

00:26:16 ◼   ► "That means you didn't know it."

00:26:17 ◼   ► No, that's not what it means.

00:26:19 ◼   ► - I love that I've trained you over the years to have--

00:26:22 ◼   ► - No, I feel like the audience needs to know

00:26:23 ◼   ► where the bar is.

00:26:25 ◼   ► The bar is higher than that.

00:26:28 ◼   ► - Oh my God.

00:26:29 ◼   ► All right, so I have a lot of ranting and raving

00:26:31 ◼   ► and complaining to do about installing Catalina.

00:26:34 ◼   ► But before I put a sour note on everything,

00:26:37 ◼   ► why don't you tell us, John, about what's going on

00:26:38 ◼   ► with APFS and Catalina?

00:26:40 ◼   ► - Yeah, I bet Catalina's quite an adventure too,

00:26:42 ◼   ► kind of like iOS 13.

00:26:43 ◼   ► Maybe wait for later builds if you're, you know,

00:26:46 ◼   ► if you wanna actually use it for something useful.

00:26:48 ◼   ► But this is about the, one of my favorite sessions

00:26:50 ◼   ► every year at WWDC, the file system session.

00:26:52 ◼   ► Sometimes there's multiple ones this year.

00:26:54 ◼   ► There was just one.

00:26:55 ◼   ► I love me a good file system session.

00:26:57 ◼   ► I went into this one only with the expectation

00:27:00 ◼   ► that I'm gonna hear about the read-only system partition,

00:27:02 ◼   ► which was something we discussed before WWDC,

00:27:04 ◼   ► and in fact, it is a thing in Catalina.

00:27:06 ◼   ► And I did, and I'll talk about that first,

00:27:08 ◼   ► but there was another announcement

00:27:09 ◼   ► that I was very excited about in that session,

00:27:12 ◼   ► which I can understand why it was kind of buried,

00:27:14 ◼   ► but I'm still excited about it anyway.

00:27:16 ◼   ► So as for Catalina and the read-only system partition,

00:27:20 ◼   ► if you're envisioning that as like,

00:27:22 ◼   ► there'll be a separate volume for your operating system

00:27:26 ◼   ► that is mounted read-only, and then a second volume

00:27:30 ◼   ► that has all your stuff on it,

00:27:31 ◼   ► that's not what you'll see in Catalina.

00:27:33 ◼   ► They added some file system features to APFS

00:27:35 ◼   ► to make this possible.

00:27:36 ◼   ► First, they added a thing they call volume groups,

00:27:38 ◼   ► which is not, as far as I can tell, not really groups.

00:27:42 ◼   ► It's like volume pairs, or there are weird limitations to it,

00:27:45 ◼   ► but anyway, it's sufficient to take two volumes,

00:27:49 ◼   ► your Catalina operating system volume

00:27:51 ◼   ► and your everything else volume,

00:27:54 ◼   ► and merge them with each other,

00:27:56 ◼   ► so they appear to be one volume,

00:27:57 ◼   ► even though they are two volumes.

00:27:59 ◼   ► The Catalina volume is read-only,

00:28:01 ◼   ► because that's your read-only system partition,

00:28:03 ◼   ► and the volume with your stuff is read-write,

00:28:06 ◼   ► and the way they merge them is a little bit weird.

00:28:09 ◼   ► So they, you know Apple, and it's links, right?

00:28:12 ◼   ► So Unix had symlinks and hardlinks.

00:28:15 ◼   ► Apple didn't invent, but popularized or pioneered,

00:28:20 ◼   ► or certainly made the largest number of hardlinks

00:28:22 ◼   ► to directories, which is not a thing in traditional Unix.

00:28:25 ◼   ► Most of the time, hardlinks are just for files,

00:28:27 ◼   ► but they made hardlinks for directories

00:28:29 ◼   ► to make Time Machine possible.

00:28:31 ◼   ► Now they have a thing that they call firm links,

00:28:34 ◼   ► and firm links are kind of like symlinks,

00:28:37 ◼   ► in that you can imagine how you can weave

00:28:39 ◼   ► two volumes together with symlinks,

00:28:41 ◼   ► or even with hardlinks and directories,

00:28:42 ◼   ► but the, oh, you can't do hardlinks

00:28:44 ◼   ► and directories across volumes.

00:28:45 ◼   ► Anyway, you cross volumes with symlinks,

00:28:48 ◼   ► but symlinks have the property that if you like,

00:28:50 ◼   ► change directory into a symlink,

00:28:52 ◼   ► and you go into that directory,

00:28:53 ◼   ► you went into a directory called A, right?

00:28:57 ◼   ► When you're in the directory,

00:28:58 ◼   ► you're not actually in a directory called A,

00:28:59 ◼   ► you can name the symlink anything.

00:29:00 ◼   ► The symlink was called A,

00:29:01 ◼   ► but now you're in some totally other directory,

00:29:03 ◼   ► 'cause the symlink has transported you

00:29:04 ◼   ► to wherever the other directory is.

00:29:06 ◼   ► It's a different directory and a different volume,

00:29:07 ◼   ► and the directory is not called A.

00:29:09 ◼   ► If you back up a directory from there, CD dot dot,

00:29:12 ◼   ► you will not find yourself where you were before.

00:29:16 ◼   ► You'll find yourself one directory up

00:29:17 ◼   ► from the target of the symlink,

00:29:20 ◼   ► and that can confuse lots of programs,

00:29:23 ◼   ► and can confuse shell scripts and other programs

00:29:25 ◼   ► people write that don't understand

00:29:27 ◼   ► that sometimes you're in a symlink and pass,

00:29:28 ◼   ► and yeah, anyway, canonicalizing passes is a thing.

00:29:30 ◼   ► So, firm links make it that if you go down

00:29:33 ◼   ► one of these links and you go back up,

00:29:35 ◼   ► you end up right back where you started.

00:29:37 ◼   ► Like, they're bi-directional and reversible.

00:29:39 ◼   ► All this is to say that when you're on Catalina,

00:29:42 ◼   ► it just looks like a disk to you,

00:29:44 ◼   ► but it's actually two volumes

00:29:45 ◼   ► merged together with firm links.

00:29:47 ◼   ► And as far as I can tell from the session,

00:29:49 ◼   ► the top volume, like the main one,

00:29:52 ◼   ► is your read-only system partition,

00:29:54 ◼   ► and then the slash users directory and a few other things

00:29:58 ◼   ► are firm links to your read-write data partition.

00:30:01 ◼   ► So, you will only see a single disk.

00:30:03 ◼   ► It is a merging of two volumes,

00:30:05 ◼   ► and it uses this weird feature called firm links.

00:30:07 ◼   ► I'm sure there's gonna be weird edge cases and lots of fun,

00:30:10 ◼   ► but it's nice from a user interface perspective

00:30:12 ◼   ► because people might not, you know,

00:30:15 ◼   ► who don't listen to this program

00:30:15 ◼   ► or don't care about read-only system partitions

00:30:17 ◼   ► will have no idea this took place.

00:30:19 ◼   ► And by the way, it's not optional.

00:30:20 ◼   ► You install Catalina, it will do this to your system.

00:30:23 ◼   ► And it makes it very easy, as Marco found out,

00:30:26 ◼   ► APFS makes it very easy to make new volumes

00:30:28 ◼   ► because it's all shared space.

00:30:29 ◼   ► You don't have to like squish all your data

00:30:30 ◼   ► into a little section to free up a big continuous block

00:30:35 ◼   ► of, you know, storage area on your disk

00:30:37 ◼   ► to put a second volume.

00:30:38 ◼   ► You can make second, third, fourth, fifth volume.

00:30:40 ◼   ► It doesn't matter.

00:30:41 ◼   ► Just throw it all in the same container.

00:30:42 ◼   ► APFS handles it.

00:30:43 ◼   ► So, this is gonna happen during your upgrade

00:30:45 ◼   ► and you might not know it,

00:30:46 ◼   ► but actually you've got two things merged together,

00:30:48 ◼   ► which is kind of neat.

00:30:49 ◼   ► So, Casey, before we move on to the one new,

00:30:52 ◼   ► interesting feature in the Fussell Sim session,

00:30:54 ◼   ► how was your experience going through the Catalina installer

00:30:58 ◼   ► that does all this stuff to your disk?

00:31:00 ◼   ► - So, my thought was having,

00:31:03 ◼   ► so let me back up a half step.

00:31:04 ◼   ► I never installed a Mac, a beta version of macOS ever

00:31:08 ◼   ► to the best of my recollection.

00:31:09 ◼   ► I've just never had any desire to.

00:31:10 ◼   ► I'm not a macOS developer, never wanted it, et cetera.

00:31:12 ◼   ► But Apple dangled the carrot of SwiftUI.

00:31:16 ◼   ► Now, SwiftUI does work on Mojave,

00:31:18 ◼   ► except that if you want the fancy schmancy live preview

00:31:22 ◼   ► where everything is being updated as you're typing it,

00:31:24 ◼   ► you must be on Catalina.

00:31:27 ◼   ► Okay, fine.

00:31:28 ◼   ► So, I'll install Catalina.

00:31:29 ◼   ► And what I did was I bought myself an external SSD,

00:31:33 ◼   ► a half terabyte external SSD.

00:31:35 ◼   ► The particular one I got is a SanDisk

00:31:36 ◼   ► and I like it quite a lot.

00:31:37 ◼   ► It has USB-C in,

00:31:41 ◼   ► but it comes with a USB-C to USB-C cord.

00:31:45 ◼   ► And then it also has a USB-C to USB-A adapter,

00:31:49 ◼   ► if that makes sense.

00:31:50 ◼   ► So basically I can use it with my old iMac,

00:31:52 ◼   ► I can use it with my MacBook, it's fine.

00:31:54 ◼   ► So I started on my MacBook, which was probably a mistake,

00:31:59 ◼   ► and I thought, okay, I will use my little Apple,

00:32:03 ◼   ► my $80 Apple dongle so I can plug in power

00:32:05 ◼   ► and a USB-B device, or I'm sorry,

00:32:08 ◼   ► an A device into my USB-C, my single USB-C port.

00:32:12 ◼   ► And many hours later and many reboots later,

00:32:14 ◼   ► it just did not work.

00:32:15 ◼   ► I just could not get it to work on the external.

00:32:17 ◼   ► So then I go to the iMac and I do basically the same thing,

00:32:20 ◼   ► work no problem, runs reasonably fast, everything's good.

00:32:23 ◼   ► So I thought, all right, fine.

00:32:24 ◼   ► Well, APFS is supposed to be good

00:32:26 ◼   ► and I have enough space on this MacBook.

00:32:28 ◼   ► So I actually, I'm gonna say repartitioned,

00:32:31 ◼   ► but that's ultimately not what I did.

00:32:32 ◼   ► But I basically made space for Catalina to run

00:32:35 ◼   ► adjacent to Mojave on my internal SSD on my MacBook.

00:32:40 ◼   ► And that actually worked no problem.

00:32:41 ◼   ► But I thought I was doing the right thing,

00:32:44 ◼   ► where I've got my external,

00:32:45 ◼   ► I'm not gonna mess at all with the internal drive

00:32:47 ◼   ► on the MacBook, and I just could not get it to work.

00:32:49 ◼   ► It very well could have been user error.

00:32:51 ◼   ► I don't know how it was, but it could have been.

00:32:53 ◼   ► But I'm still, I remain somewhat frustrated

00:32:56 ◼   ► that my poor little two-year-old MacBook

00:32:59 ◼   ► that admittedly is slower than dirt

00:33:01 ◼   ► just could not do it over the USB drive.

00:33:03 ◼   ► And I don't think that's a Catalina problem.

00:33:05 ◼   ► I think of anything that's a MacBook problem,

00:33:07 ◼   ► but I was sad, you guys.

00:33:08 ◼   ► That being said, one, I finally got these things installed.

00:33:12 ◼   ► The installation was fairly easy.

00:33:14 ◼   ► I don't remember anything particularly remarkable about it.

00:33:16 ◼   ► And holy cow, SwiftUI on Catalina is good stuff.

00:33:21 ◼   ► It's not perfect, but it is good stuff.

00:33:24 ◼   ► So if you are adventurous,

00:33:26 ◼   ► and especially if you have an external drive

00:33:27 ◼   ► and not a MacBook, I cannot recommend it enough.

00:33:30 ◼   ► It is excellent.

00:33:31 ◼   ► And Marco, for you doing watch kit stuff,

00:33:33 ◼   ► or I'm sorry, not watch kit,

00:33:34 ◼   ► for you doing SwiftUI on the watch,

00:33:36 ◼   ► I honestly don't know if you've installed Catalina

00:33:38 ◼   ► or not yet, but I cannot recommend it enough,

00:33:41 ◼   ► because it is way better on Catalina doing SwiftUI

00:33:45 ◼   ► than it is on Mojave.

00:33:46 ◼   ► I did the thing where I installed it on the second partition

00:33:49 ◼   ► and that worked fine for me.

00:33:50 ◼   ► So for listeners, the way to do this basically is

00:33:53 ◼   ► make the second partition,

00:33:54 ◼   ► you can make an APFS space sharing one,

00:33:55 ◼   ► so you're not actually losing any space on your main disk.

00:33:59 ◼   ► And there's two ways to do it.

00:34:02 ◼   ► Way number one is install a copy of Mojave

00:34:06 ◼   ► on the second partition, log into that,

00:34:09 ◼   ► and then download the beta profile on that

00:34:11 ◼   ► and have it update itself,

00:34:12 ◼   ► making sure that the updater

00:34:13 ◼   ► is actually gonna run on that volume,

00:34:15 ◼   ► which is clumsy, but a little bit safe and isolated.

00:34:18 ◼   ► The other way to do it,

00:34:19 ◼   ► and I've done one of each of these now,

00:34:21 ◼   ► is to install the beta profile

00:34:24 ◼   ► on your main installation of Mojave,

00:34:26 ◼   ► download the installer,

00:34:27 ◼   ► and then when it says what volume to install on,

00:34:30 ◼   ► pick your new one, and then let it install,

00:34:32 ◼   ► and then remove the beta profile from your main Mojave one.

00:34:35 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what I did.

00:34:36 ◼   ► - In both cases, if you use FileVault

00:34:38 ◼   ► on your main Mojave installation,

00:34:40 ◼   ► when the second installation of Catalina,

00:34:43 ◼   ► when that boots up, it won't see the Mojave disk,

00:34:46 ◼   ► and it'll prompt you to enter the password for it,

00:34:48 ◼   ► but you don't have to enter.

00:34:49 ◼   ► If you just hit Cancel, then the Catalina instance

00:34:52 ◼   ► will be able to see none of the files

00:34:54 ◼   ► on your Mojave instance,

00:34:56 ◼   ► which is actually kind of convenient

00:34:57 ◼   ► for keeping things isolated

00:34:58 ◼   ► and making sure the beta doesn't mess up your main disk.

00:35:01 ◼   ► So I did the Mojave, then Catalina reinstallation thing

00:35:05 ◼   ► on my laptop, and I did the beta,

00:35:08 ◼   ► and then removed the beta direct installation on my desktop,

00:35:12 ◼   ► and both worked totally fine.

00:35:13 ◼   ► So I have seen it, and unfortunately,

00:35:16 ◼   ► I've never really run Mac betas

00:35:18 ◼   ► 'cause I've never wanted to, because that's crazy.

00:35:20 ◼   ► This is my production machine.

00:35:22 ◼   ► I have to have everything working right,

00:35:23 ◼   ► but this summer, that's gonna be different,

00:35:25 ◼   ► because I have to do a lot of development on Catalina,

00:35:28 ◼   ► because you also can't do any

00:35:30 ◼   ► catalyst development on Mojave.

00:35:32 ◼   ► - Oh, true, true, true.

00:35:35 ◼   ► - So for most of the Xcode work

00:35:37 ◼   ► I'm going to be doing this summer,

00:35:39 ◼   ► I'm probably gonna want to or need to

00:35:42 ◼   ► be doing it on Catalina.

00:35:44 ◼   ► So I have a feeling I'm gonna be spending

00:35:45 ◼   ► a lot of time booted into that,

00:35:47 ◼   ► and at some point, if the betas become stable enough,

00:35:49 ◼   ► I think I'm just gonna migrate my main installation to it

00:35:52 ◼   ► just to make things simpler.

00:35:53 ◼   ► - Jon, have you touched it at all?

00:35:55 ◼   ► - I haven't installed it yet.

00:35:56 ◼   ► I've been busily doing other computer maintenance stuff.

00:35:59 ◼   ► I don't plan on installing the betas,

00:36:00 ◼   ► although when I was writing my quote-unquote Mac app in Swift

00:36:05 ◼   ► and it had the language version pop up,

00:36:07 ◼   ► it maxed out at 4.2, and that was kind of disappointing.

00:36:10 ◼   ► I couldn't use any of the neat features

00:36:11 ◼   ► that were demonstrated in,

00:36:13 ◼   ► or that are demonstrated by SwiftUI.

00:36:15 ◼   ► Not that I had reason to, but I just wanted to like,

00:36:17 ◼   ► I don't know, write something.

00:36:18 ◼   ► But yeah, so that's a fact of life with Mac development.

00:36:23 ◼   ► You do need the latest OS and the latest version to do that,

00:36:26 ◼   ► and where you get the latest version of Xcode

00:36:28 ◼   ► to do development for it.

00:36:29 ◼   ► Although you can probably install the beta of Xcode

00:36:32 ◼   ► back on Mojave, I'm assuming.

00:36:33 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's what I did at first to play with SwiftUI,

00:36:36 ◼   ► and then that's when I realized, wait a second,

00:36:38 ◼   ► the canvas, I think Xcode thinks it's showing the canvas,

00:36:41 ◼   ► but it's not showing the canvas,

00:36:42 ◼   ► and the canvas being the live preview thing.

00:36:45 ◼   ► And so you're exactly right.

00:36:46 ◼   ► You can do all of this on, well, by all of this,

00:36:49 ◼   ► I mean you can use SwiftUI and Swift 5, et cetera, or 5.1.

00:36:53 ◼   ► On Mojave, it's just that you don't get any

00:36:55 ◼   ► of the new hotness with the,

00:36:56 ◼   ► don't call it a simulator simulator in the canvas.

00:36:59 ◼   ► - And you can't run, like Marco said, the catalyst apps,

00:37:01 ◼   ► 'cause I guess those libraries all aren't there.

00:37:04 ◼   ► - So no, I don't think I'll install the beta.

00:37:06 ◼   ► Although Mojave has been fighting me

00:37:07 ◼   ► and doing weird things lately, so I'm maybe, I don't know.

00:37:11 ◼   ► I haven't installed betas in a long time.

00:37:13 ◼   ► Like for years and years,

00:37:14 ◼   ► I had to have the betas installed all the time,

00:37:16 ◼   ► and it's just nice to be able to be running

00:37:17 ◼   ► the release version, but the release version of Mojave

00:37:19 ◼   ► has not been friendly to this 5K iMac,

00:37:21 ◼   ► so maybe I'll upgrade sooner rather than later, but we'll see.

00:37:24 ◼   ► - All right, tell me about volume replication.

00:37:26 ◼   ► - Yeah, so this is the new feature.

00:37:28 ◼   ► So they started off in the file system session

00:37:30 ◼   ► after they did all the Catalina read-only system prediction,

00:37:32 ◼   ► saying, oh, volume replication.

00:37:34 ◼   ► Like, oh, this is great, because, I mean,

00:37:35 ◼   ► it's a feature that existed for the HFS+,

00:37:37 ◼   ► but they hadn't updated it for APFS,

00:37:39 ◼   ► so the Apple system restore, ASR command line

00:37:43 ◼   ► now replicates APFS volumes, which is nice.

00:37:46 ◼   ► And also, you can point it to a particular snapshot,

00:37:49 ◼   ► so you can say copy from volume A snapshot two.

00:37:51 ◼   ► You can copy that over to another volume,

00:37:53 ◼   ► so you don't have to copy from the volume,

00:37:56 ◼   ► the head of the volume, so to speak.

00:37:59 ◼   ► And that'll be useful for backup programs.

00:38:02 ◼   ► Time Machine already does this.

00:38:03 ◼   ► Time Machine already takes a snapshot in APFS

00:38:06 ◼   ► and backs up from that, so it has a single point in time,

00:38:09 ◼   ► consistent view of the file system,

00:38:12 ◼   ► as opposed to the HFS+ days,

00:38:13 ◼   ► where it would paint in the Golden Gate Bridge style.

00:38:15 ◼   ► It would start the Time Machine backup,

00:38:17 ◼   ► and it would slowly work its way through your files,

00:38:19 ◼   ► and an hour later, it would complete.

00:38:21 ◼   ► And what you would have a copy of

00:38:22 ◼   ► is the files spread over that hour.

00:38:25 ◼   ► I think it went back, it would go back again

00:38:26 ◼   ► and try to catch up, but it's a,

00:38:28 ◼   ► again, you're just, you're chasing your own tail

00:38:30 ◼   ► at a certain point.

00:38:31 ◼   ► If changes are constantly being made

00:38:32 ◼   ► to the source volume, you're never gonna be,

00:38:34 ◼   ► quote, unquote, caught up,

00:38:35 ◼   ► whereas a snapshot takes a point in time snapshot

00:38:37 ◼   ► and says, here's the state of the whole volume,

00:38:39 ◼   ► and it's cheap to do, so it's been doing that for years.

00:38:41 ◼   ► So now, Apple System Restore Utility

00:38:44 ◼   ► can copy from a snapshot onto a target volume.

00:38:47 ◼   ► But now here's the exciting new feature,

00:38:49 ◼   ► and also why they didn't talk about it this year.

00:38:52 ◼   ► So if you copy snapshot number,

00:38:55 ◼   ► from volume A, snapshot number one, over to volume B,

00:38:59 ◼   ► and then a day later, you take a new snapshot of volume A,

00:39:04 ◼   ► and you say, I wanna copy this new snapshot over to volume B.

00:39:08 ◼   ► Well, you already copied snapshot one yesterday,

00:39:11 ◼   ► and it would be wasteful for it to copy

00:39:15 ◼   ► all of snapshot two over,

00:39:16 ◼   ► 'cause probably mostly between snapshot one and two,

00:39:19 ◼   ► not that much has changed.

00:39:20 ◼   ► Well, APFS and ASR in Catalina

00:39:25 ◼   ► can tell what has changed

00:39:27 ◼   ► between snapshot one and snapshot two,

00:39:29 ◼   ► and it will only send the changed data over

00:39:33 ◼   ► in an efficient manner.

00:39:34 ◼   ► Rather than, again, the old time machine one was like,

00:39:37 ◼   ► it would try to keep track of what directories have changed,

00:39:39 ◼   ► but it would end up having to scan a bunch of files

00:39:41 ◼   ► and figure out, okay, well, this directory has changed

00:39:43 ◼   ► since then according to the FS events log.

00:39:44 ◼   ► What files in this directory have changed?

00:39:46 ◼   ► Do I need to copy them, all this other stuff?

00:39:48 ◼   ► This is probably not as fancy and efficient

00:39:52 ◼   ► as ZFS block deltas between snapshots,

00:39:54 ◼   ► but maybe a little bit more flexible.

00:39:57 ◼   ► This obviously would be ideal for time machine,

00:40:00 ◼   ► but as far as I'm aware,

00:40:02 ◼   ► time machine in Catalina does not use this technology,

00:40:04 ◼   ► 'cause I think if it did,

00:40:06 ◼   ► they would have said so in the session.

00:40:07 ◼   ► They would have said,

00:40:08 ◼   ► and this is what the new version of time machine Catalina

00:40:10 ◼   ► uses to be so much more fast and efficient.

00:40:12 ◼   ► They didn't say that.

00:40:14 ◼   ► I haven't installed Catalina, so I don't know,

00:40:16 ◼   ► but if this is not implemented in Catalina time machine,

00:40:19 ◼   ► then I think next year, finally,

00:40:20 ◼   ► will be what we've all been waiting for,

00:40:22 ◼   ► what I've been waiting for,

00:40:23 ◼   ► which is APFS, this great new file system,

00:40:27 ◼   ► a lot of its features are an ideal fit for time machine,

00:40:31 ◼   ► and yet up until the, well, I don't know,

00:40:34 ◼   ► I don't know about Catalina,

00:40:35 ◼   ► but you couldn't even use APFS as a time machine volume

00:40:40 ◼   ► in Mojave and earlier.

00:40:42 ◼   ► You could have the source volume be APFS,

00:40:44 ◼   ► but you couldn't have the target volume

00:40:45 ◼   ► of a time machine backup.

00:40:47 ◼   ► So now finally, in either Catalina

00:40:49 ◼   ► or on the operating system that comes after next year,

00:40:51 ◼   ► time machine should get a lot faster,

00:40:54 ◼   ► a lot more efficient, and a lot less disk grinding.

00:40:59 ◼   ► I guess that's not the right term anymore

00:41:01 ◼   ► 'cause we all have SSDs, but a lot friendlier to your SSD,

00:41:04 ◼   ► both in terms of reads and hopefully writes,

00:41:08 ◼   ► and won't have to create thousands or millions

00:41:11 ◼   ► of hard links to directories,

00:41:13 ◼   ► all of which are stored in a hidden directory

00:41:15 ◼   ► at the top level of HFS+ drives.

00:41:17 ◼   ► It's horrifying, don't look.

00:41:19 ◼   ► So I'm excited that the advantages of APFS,

00:41:22 ◼   ► we just described a bunch of advantages,

00:41:23 ◼   ► how easy it is to "repartition,"

00:41:26 ◼   ► which is not a thing anymore.

00:41:27 ◼   ► Just make a new volume right on top

00:41:29 ◼   ► of all your other volumes, how easy that is,

00:41:31 ◼   ► how it's so easy that Apple is going to do it

00:41:34 ◼   ► without an option to do otherwise.

00:41:37 ◼   ► When you install Catalina,

00:41:38 ◼   ► it is going to "repartition" everyone's disks,

00:41:41 ◼   ► and soon it will make time machine more efficient.

00:41:43 ◼   ► So this has been a banner year

00:41:46 ◼   ► for file system advances, improving all of our quality of life

00:41:51 ◼   ► and maybe next year will be the big banner year

00:41:55 ◼   ► when time machine probably gets the update.

00:41:57 ◼   ► - Man, everything's coming up Syracuse.

00:41:59 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's a good year, it's good to be in the D.C.

00:42:02 ◼   ► - All right, tell me about user space drivers.

00:42:04 ◼   ► Why do I care about this?

00:42:05 ◼   ► - More file system stuff, oh my goodness.

00:42:07 ◼   ► - Hooray!

00:42:07 ◼   ► - They talked about this in the keynote, right?

00:42:10 ◼   ► - Craig mentioned it at the talk show live

00:42:13 ◼   ► about how moving the mass storage drivers

00:42:18 ◼   ► and file system drivers out of the kernel

00:42:21 ◼   ► and into user space was why the iPad got USB drive support.

00:42:26 ◼   ► - Yeah, maybe they talked about it instead of the union too.

00:42:28 ◼   ► So anyway, this is not just file system stuff,

00:42:31 ◼   ► it's user space drivers in general.

00:42:32 ◼   ► So basically kernel extensions as we know them,

00:42:35 ◼   ► pieces of code that Apple and third parties could write

00:42:38 ◼   ► that would literally run inside the kernel

00:42:40 ◼   ► in the address space of the kernel,

00:42:42 ◼   ► those are essentially deprecated.

00:42:44 ◼   ► It's always been dangerous to let third parties do that

00:42:47 ◼   ► because if you are inside the kernel,

00:42:49 ◼   ► you have the highest privilege you can have

00:42:51 ◼   ► in the operating system

00:42:52 ◼   ► and you can do all sorts of bad things.

00:42:53 ◼   ► Kernel extensions are supposed to not do bad things

00:42:56 ◼   ► like cause kernel panics and other things

00:42:58 ◼   ► that could take down the entire operating system

00:43:00 ◼   ► or snoop data or stuff like that.

00:43:02 ◼   ► And over the past several years,

00:43:03 ◼   ► Apple has been becoming more and more strict

00:43:05 ◼   ► about what it takes to be able to write a kernel extension

00:43:10 ◼   ► that can be loaded by Mac users with a default security setting.

00:43:13 ◼   ► So first of all, Apple has to sign them

00:43:14 ◼   ► and then it's like they can only be loaded

00:43:16 ◼   ► if people have the settings a certain way.

00:43:18 ◼   ► So you couldn't just be like,

00:43:19 ◼   ► I'm gonna make a kernel extension,

00:43:20 ◼   ► I'm gonna put it up on my website, anyone can download it.

00:43:22 ◼   ► They could, but if you didn't go through Apple

00:43:24 ◼   ► with the whole signing thing,

00:43:25 ◼   ► it wouldn't be able to load

00:43:27 ◼   ► unless someone changed the gatekeeper settings

00:43:29 ◼   ► to be like load everything and turned off system integrity.

00:43:31 ◼   ► Anyway, this long road has been leading to the point

00:43:34 ◼   ► where they say, you know what,

00:43:35 ◼   ► just don't write those anymore

00:43:36 ◼   ► because there's no real way to make them safe.

00:43:39 ◼   ► If you do something wrong in your kernel extension,

00:43:41 ◼   ► you can and will take out the entire system.

00:43:44 ◼   ► And it's just, you know, it's something we want to,

00:43:47 ◼   ► we prefer if that wasn't a possibility at all.

00:43:50 ◼   ► So user space drivers lets you write a driver

00:43:54 ◼   ► for whatever it is, a piece of hardware,

00:43:55 ◼   ► something you would normally make a kernel extension for,

00:43:57 ◼   ► but do it in user space.

00:43:59 ◼   ► And historically that hasn't been done

00:44:00 ◼   ► because it's less efficient to switch from user space

00:44:03 ◼   ► to kernel space and back and forth in a rapid manner.

00:44:05 ◼   ► I'm not sure how they're mitigating that.

00:44:07 ◼   ► I don't think I've seen any session

00:44:08 ◼   ► that has explained how they're able to do this

00:44:11 ◼   ► and make it more efficient.

00:44:12 ◼   ► But the bottom line is that they are doing it.

00:44:14 ◼   ► And the interesting thing in the user space driver session

00:44:17 ◼   ► that I saw was this may be the last time

00:44:21 ◼   ► that anybody at WWDC gets to do the equivalent

00:44:24 ◼   ► of the classic BOM app demo.

00:44:27 ◼   ► Back when the Mac operating system

00:44:31 ◼   ► did not have protected memory,

00:44:32 ◼   ► and we were all waiting for whatever

00:44:34 ◼   ► the next generation operating system would be from Apple.

00:44:37 ◼   ► And they almost bought B and were thinking

00:44:40 ◼   ► of getting the Windows NT kernel

00:44:41 ◼   ► and had seven internal projects.

00:44:43 ◼   ► Several of them were announced,

00:44:45 ◼   ► but then canceled publicly.

00:44:47 ◼   ► And it was just an embarrassing time.

00:44:48 ◼   ► When Apple finally had a next generation OS strategy,

00:44:51 ◼   ► I think it was maybe Rhapsody even before Mac OS X,

00:44:54 ◼   ► but either way, I think they did a Mac OS X as well.

00:44:56 ◼   ► They would do a demo at their developer conference,

00:44:59 ◼   ► but they would say, "Here is an application

00:45:00 ◼   ► "that's gonna dereference a null pointer."

00:45:02 ◼   ► Like an application meant to crash.

00:45:03 ◼   ► And it would have a window,

00:45:04 ◼   ► and in the window would be the classic Mac

00:45:07 ◼   ► cannonball black BOM icon,

00:45:09 ◼   ► like a huge version of the BOM icon.

00:45:10 ◼   ► I think sometimes the little fuse was sparking or whatever.

00:45:14 ◼   ► And the app would run for a second,

00:45:16 ◼   ► and you'd click on it or something,

00:45:17 ◼   ► and it would crash, right?

00:45:19 ◼   ► And they would launch that app,

00:45:20 ◼   ► and they'd say, "And here we go, crash."

00:45:22 ◼   ► And the app would crash, and the window would disappear.

00:45:24 ◼   ► And then the presenter would say,

00:45:25 ◼   ► "And look, the operating system is still running."

00:45:28 ◼   ► And the audience would cheer.

00:45:29 ◼   ► They would cheer so loud,

00:45:31 ◼   ► you would think they were announcing

00:45:32 ◼   ► PS4 controller support.

00:45:33 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:45:34 ◼   ► It was the most crowd-pleasing demo ever.

00:45:36 ◼   ► And anyone who was using Unix or even Windows NT

00:45:40 ◼   ► would be like, "Boy, these poor suckers.

00:45:42 ◼   ► "They're cheering for memory protection."

00:45:44 ◼   ► You don't get to do the demo anymore.

00:45:45 ◼   ► We just assume that if an app crashes,

00:45:47 ◼   ► of course it doesn't take out your operating system.

00:45:48 ◼   ► What century is this?

00:45:50 ◼   ► Well, the user space driver session,

00:45:52 ◼   ► they said, "Here, I'm gonna make a driver."

00:45:54 ◼   ► And in this driver, they said,

00:45:56 ◼   ► "I'm gonna add an infinite loop,"

00:45:57 ◼   ► which would be very bad if you're

00:45:59 ◼   ► an infinite loop inside the kernel.

00:46:00 ◼   ► Very, very bad indeed.

00:46:01 ◼   ► And also, right after the infinite loop,

00:46:04 ◼   ► which would be like, "How are you ever gonna reach out?"

00:46:06 ◼   ► Anyway, right after the infinite loop,

00:46:07 ◼   ► I will add a null pointer dereference.

00:46:10 ◼   ► So they used the driver and they plugged in

00:46:12 ◼   ► some piece of hardware that activated the driver,

00:46:14 ◼   ► and the driver went along and went into its infinite loop,

00:46:17 ◼   ► and basically they showed,

00:46:18 ◼   ► "Look, the operating system is still working,

00:46:20 ◼   ► "even though that driver is just spinning

00:46:21 ◼   ► "in an infinite loop."

00:46:23 ◼   ► And then he attached to it with the LDB

00:46:25 ◼   ► and modified the loop condition

00:46:26 ◼   ► to get it out of the infinite loop,

00:46:28 ◼   ► and it immediately hit the next line,

00:46:29 ◼   ► which was null pointer dereference,

00:46:31 ◼   ► and it crashed the driver.

00:46:32 ◼   ► And the driver crashed, and the operating system was fine,

00:46:35 ◼   ► and the driver auto-relaunched itself.

00:46:37 ◼   ► And that was an exciting demo.

00:46:39 ◼   ► And I think this is the last time

00:46:41 ◼   ► we're gonna have to have that exciting.

00:46:42 ◼   ► Didn't have as much applause as the Mom app,

00:46:44 ◼   ► but it was still pretty neat.

00:46:45 ◼   ► And as Margot said before, why do we care about this?

00:46:50 ◼   ► A couple reasons.

00:46:50 ◼   ► One, if you've ever had some piece of hardware

00:46:54 ◼   ► or some application that installed a kernel extension

00:46:57 ◼   ► and you started getting kernel panics,

00:46:59 ◼   ► now just your application will crash,

00:47:01 ◼   ► but at least the rest of your operating system will be fine.

00:47:04 ◼   ► And two, I don't know if this is the reason

00:47:07 ◼   ► they didn't have mass storage support in the Files app,

00:47:10 ◼   ► but it was stated as one of the things

00:47:12 ◼   ► that helped bring about mass storage access in iOS

00:47:17 ◼   ► was that now they don't have to worry about

00:47:20 ◼   ► a bug in the driver or something,

00:47:21 ◼   ► 'cause Apple's gonna write these drivers,

00:47:22 ◼   ► not like they're letting people

00:47:23 ◼   ► distribute kernel extensions for iOS.

00:47:25 ◼   ► If there's some sort of bug in the driver

00:47:26 ◼   ► that you're able to exploit

00:47:28 ◼   ► by plugging in some malicious USB key or something

00:47:31 ◼   ► that could suddenly corrupt the kernel

00:47:32 ◼   ► or jailbreak or whatever,

00:47:34 ◼   ► they don't have to worry about that

00:47:35 ◼   ► because file system drivers in iOS and in macOS

00:47:38 ◼   ► now exist in user space.

00:47:40 ◼   ► So there's no way they can, in theory,

00:47:42 ◼   ► there's no way they can get at kernel memory

00:47:44 ◼   ► and start doing nasty stuff.

00:47:46 ◼   ► And the way this is related to Dropbox and OneDrive

00:47:49 ◼   ► and other stuff like that, that, where was this?

00:47:51 ◼   ► In a Vitiges interview with Craig Federighi,

00:47:54 ◼   ► he mentioned that these user space

00:47:57 ◼   ► sort of file system driver mechanism,

00:48:00 ◼   ► they also have APIs that can be used by companies

00:48:03 ◼   ► like Dropbox and OneDrive where they,

00:48:06 ◼   ► Dropbox has a thing, I'm not sure

00:48:07 ◼   ► what the OneDrive equivalent is,

00:48:08 ◼   ► where they give you what looks like a view

00:48:10 ◼   ► of the file system, but the files actually aren't there.

00:48:12 ◼   ► Like it doesn't put all the files on your disk

00:48:14 ◼   ► as the traditional Dropbox did.

00:48:16 ◼   ► The files are over on the server.

00:48:18 ◼   ► And when you access those files behind the scenes,

00:48:20 ◼   ► it goes and fetches the bytes from the server

00:48:22 ◼   ► as you need them.

00:48:23 ◼   ► That's all done with weird file system driver magic.

00:48:27 ◼   ► These user space file system drivers can be used,

00:48:30 ◼   ► and they're, I'm sure Apple wants these companies

00:48:32 ◼   ► to use by companies like Dropbox to add this functionality

00:48:35 ◼   ► in a way that doesn't screw with your kernel

00:48:37 ◼   ► and that has less chance of messing up your system.

00:48:40 ◼   ► There's always been the FUSE system, what is it?

00:48:42 ◼   ► File system and user space, whatever.

00:48:44 ◼   ► I've used SSHFS and similar user space file system drivers,

00:48:49 ◼   ► and they're great because they may be buggy

00:48:51 ◼   ► and might not work, but it's not going to affect

00:48:52 ◼   ► the stability of your system.

00:48:53 ◼   ► So I am excited for all the drivers

00:48:58 ◼   ► that aren't super performance critical

00:49:00 ◼   ► to go into user space.

00:49:02 ◼   ► I'm excited for Dropbox to be a better behaved application

00:49:04 ◼   ► that has less of a chance of closing my system.

00:49:07 ◼   ► And I also hope somewhere, somehow, I can learn

00:49:11 ◼   ► how they've implemented the user space file system drivers

00:49:13 ◼   ► in a way that is efficient.

00:49:14 ◼   ► So if anyone knows where I can get that information,

00:49:17 ◼   ► please send me the link or the WWDC session details.

00:49:21 ◼   ► - Excellent.

00:49:22 ◼   ► Well, that sounds good to me.

00:49:23 ◼   ► I mean, I don't know if I'm quite as jazzed about it

00:49:25 ◼   ► as you are, but it sounds good to me.

00:49:28 ◼   ► - You'll be happy when your stuff doesn't crash.

00:49:30 ◼   ► I mean, that's the thing with crashes.

00:49:31 ◼   ► Like, when you get, I get kernel panics on my laptop,

00:49:35 ◼   ► as we discussed, every once in a while.

00:49:38 ◼   ► I've always attributed them to my weird Thunderbolt dock

00:49:40 ◼   ► thing, but honestly, I don't know.

00:49:42 ◼   ► The more stuff, the more third-party software

00:49:44 ◼   ► we can get out of the kernel, the better.

00:49:46 ◼   ► - We are sponsored this week by Away,

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00:50:00 ◼   ► Now the carry-on is available in two sizes

00:50:03 ◼   ► and an optional, ejectable TSA compliant battery.

00:50:07 ◼   ► This is what made them famous, really,

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00:51:34 ◼   ► - Alright, so that's it for me for this episode.

00:51:40 ◼   ► It's been great being with you guys.

00:51:41 ◼   ► Alright, I'm gonna go to sleep.

00:51:42 ◼   ► Tell me about the Mac Pro.

00:51:44 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:51:46 ◼   ► - One thing I loved that we didn't know last time,

00:51:49 ◼   ► I know you have this later down

00:51:50 ◼   ► but I'm gonna talk about it now.

00:51:52 ◼   ► I love that the Mac Pro kind of asterisk

00:51:56 ◼   ► has hard drive bays inside of it.

00:51:59 ◼   ► - Wait, it does?

00:52:00 ◼   ► Oh, you mean the SSD things?

00:52:02 ◼   ► - No, no, no.

00:52:03 ◼   ► I mean 3.5 inch hard drive bays.

00:52:06 ◼   ► - It does?

00:52:07 ◼   ► - Sort of, asterisk.

00:52:10 ◼   ► So here's how this works.

00:52:11 ◼   ► So on the inside of it, we mentioned,

00:52:14 ◼   ► we had seen in the little hands-on thing

00:52:16 ◼   ► and we mentioned in the live show

00:52:18 ◼   ► that there are two SATA ports on the inside

00:52:22 ◼   ► right next to that USB-A port on the inside

00:52:24 ◼   ► to put the DRM dongles for Pro apps.

00:52:27 ◼   ► So there's, inside near the top of the case,

00:52:30 ◼   ► there is a USB-A port.

00:52:33 ◼   ► Next to it is two SATA ports and a power header for them.

00:52:37 ◼   ► And above them is, or in front of them,

00:52:40 ◼   ► is basically a big empty space.

00:52:42 ◼   ► And so it turns out, this is kind of like

00:52:45 ◼   ► when Apple outsources things it doesn't feel like

00:52:48 ◼   ► making to Belkin or Logitech or LG.

00:52:53 ◼   ► Apple has basically outsourced

00:52:54 ◼   ► the Mac Pro's drive bays to Pegasus.

00:52:57 ◼   ► So Pegasus sells two modules for the Mac Pro.

00:53:01 ◼   ► One of them, I think we saw already,

00:53:03 ◼   ► one of them is the R4i, and this is a full-size MPX module.

00:53:07 ◼   ► So this is one of those full-length,

00:53:09 ◼   ► three-slot-wide PCI Express things

00:53:12 ◼   ► that seems to mount in in some kind of firm way.

00:53:14 ◼   ► That one takes four hard drives

00:53:17 ◼   ► and has a built-in RAID controller.

00:53:19 ◼   ► So that's, and that's, I don't think they've announced

00:53:20 ◼   ► pricing of either of these things yet,

00:53:22 ◼   ► but that's probably gonna be fairly expensive.

00:53:25 ◼   ► And I also kind of think it's hilarious

00:53:26 ◼   ► to mount four hard drives in a PCI Express slot.

00:53:30 ◼   ► Even though, yes, I know that they have

00:53:32 ◼   ► all these like screw mount points

00:53:34 ◼   ► and it's probably gonna be really secure in there,

00:53:36 ◼   ► that still seems comically heavy to put in a PCI slot.

00:53:40 ◼   ► So I don't know, I'm not sure how comfortable

00:53:43 ◼   ► I'd feel with that, even though I'm sure they thought of it

00:53:44 ◼   ► and I'm sure it's safe and everything.

00:53:45 ◼   ► But it just seems wrong.

00:53:47 ◼   ► - Yeah, the vibrations alone, right?

00:53:49 ◼   ► Like the spinning disk, are they gonna slowly

00:53:51 ◼   ► work the contacts out of there?

00:53:53 ◼   ► - I know.

00:53:54 ◼   ► Like it shouldn't be, like the MPX modules,

00:53:57 ◼   ► it just feels like the wrong place to put

00:53:58 ◼   ► four three and a half inch hard drives.

00:54:01 ◼   ► But, so that's the Pegasus R4i,

00:54:04 ◼   ► the big four-slot RAID one that goes in the main slots.

00:54:06 ◼   ► Then the Pegasus J2i appears to have no circuitry at all.

00:54:11 ◼   ► It appears to be just like a mount for two disks

00:54:15 ◼   ► that plug directly into those two SATA ports

00:54:19 ◼   ► and the power header next to them

00:54:20 ◼   ► in the top open space of the Mac Pro.

00:54:22 ◼   ► So really, the Mac Pro has two three and a half inch

00:54:27 ◼   ► hard drive bays in that top space.

00:54:29 ◼   ► They're just optional and sold by Pegasus.

00:54:31 ◼   ► That I think is kind of fun.

00:54:33 ◼   ► Like I'm not sure I would use them,

00:54:35 ◼   ► but I'm really happy to have the option.

00:54:37 ◼   ► Because like one thing that we've lost

00:54:40 ◼   ► in the move away from cheese grater Mac Pros

00:54:44 ◼   ► for the last X years, we've lost the ability

00:54:47 ◼   ► to have a whole bunch of internal storage.

00:54:49 ◼   ► Because this is corresponding with the SSD revolution,

00:54:52 ◼   ► which is wonderful for speed and everything.

00:54:54 ◼   ► And I still love an all SSD computer,

00:54:56 ◼   ► but as a result we have to have external drives

00:55:00 ◼   ► or NAS boxes or other complex external expensive things

00:55:05 ◼   ► in order to get large bulk storage for archive storage

00:55:09 ◼   ► or for videos or for media servers or for time machine.

00:55:14 ◼   ► And I always loved when I had the tower Mac Pros,

00:55:17 ◼   ► I always loved just having four hard drives in there

00:55:19 ◼   ► and just having all of my storage internal.

00:55:22 ◼   ► So it was a cleaner setup, it was way cheaper

00:55:24 ◼   ► to get big storage, and although nothing about this new

00:55:27 ◼   ► Mac Pro is cheaper really, but it's all relative I guess.

00:55:31 ◼   ► I'm actually really happy to see this,

00:55:34 ◼   ► because back when we were discussing

00:55:36 ◼   ► what we thought would be the next Mac Pro,

00:55:38 ◼   ► none of us would have guessed that there would be

00:55:40 ◼   ► any three and a half inch drive bays.

00:55:43 ◼   ► And while there technically aren't in a stock configuration,

00:55:46 ◼   ► the fact that they clearly designed it with that in mind

00:55:48 ◼   ► and basically allowed for these modules to exist,

00:55:51 ◼   ► and honestly Apple probably designed them

00:55:53 ◼   ► and handed the design to Pegasus.

00:55:55 ◼   ► The fact that these exist and were made for it

00:55:57 ◼   ► and it was designed with them in mind is awesome.

00:56:00 ◼   ► So now you can theoretically, I mean heck,

00:56:03 ◼   ► you can, I think you can fit up to three MPX modules, right?

00:56:07 ◼   ► - No, it's just two.

00:56:09 ◼   ► - Oh okay, so well, you could theoretically have

00:56:11 ◼   ► two Pegasus R4Is, one Pegasus J2i,

00:56:16 ◼   ► and a regular PCI Express video card

00:56:18 ◼   ► that isn't an MPX module to be your video card.

00:56:21 ◼   ► And you could then theoretically have

00:56:24 ◼   ► 10 three and a half inch hard drives inside your Mac Pro.

00:56:28 ◼   ► - Oh my word.

00:56:29 ◼   ► - That's a lot of terabytes.

00:56:31 ◼   ► So that's really cool.

00:56:33 ◼   ► - This heading was actually under,

00:56:35 ◼   ► this whole topic was under the idea of the question

00:56:37 ◼   ► that came up during the live show.

00:56:38 ◼   ► Are third parties allowed to make MPX modules?

00:56:41 ◼   ► Answer, yes, and Apple seems to love Pegasus.

00:56:43 ◼   ► Like they're always promoting Pegasus

00:56:45 ◼   ► as the maker of their RAID and other storage stuff.

00:56:47 ◼   ► The main thing I'm interested in is

00:56:49 ◼   ► I do want internal drives.

00:56:50 ◼   ► Probably not spinning disks,

00:56:52 ◼   ► 'cause if I wanted to buy humongous spinning disks

00:56:54 ◼   ► I would just shove them in a NAS somewhere.

00:56:57 ◼   ► But I'll probably use one of my old SSDs

00:57:00 ◼   ► as like a boot camp thing.

00:57:02 ◼   ► And if I wanna have internal time machine storage

00:57:05 ◼   ► and I get like a four terabyte SATA SSD,

00:57:09 ◼   ► like it's fine for time machine backup purposes.

00:57:12 ◼   ► Although that might be kind of expensive.

00:57:13 ◼   ► Anyway, I like the idea of having room for internal storage

00:57:16 ◼   ► no matter what it happens to be in whatever slots they go.

00:57:19 ◼   ► Because there are so many slots.

00:57:20 ◼   ► I'm not going to fill all the slots.

00:57:22 ◼   ► There's so much room inside that case.

00:57:24 ◼   ► I may actually be interested maybe in this J2i thing

00:57:27 ◼   ► just because why not?

00:57:29 ◼   ► Like I have big hard drives laying around

00:57:31 ◼   ► and it's better than trying to find an external enclosure

00:57:33 ◼   ► and having these wires dangling out of the thing

00:57:35 ◼   ► and plugging up some of your ports

00:57:37 ◼   ► and having to deal with the extra power.

00:57:39 ◼   ► It's all inside the case.

00:57:40 ◼   ► Does it manage to having,

00:57:42 ◼   ► one of the many advantages to having a Mac Pro?

00:57:44 ◼   ► - Yeah, and like the limitation of SATA as the bus

00:57:47 ◼   ► instead of like direct connect, MVME, whatever.

00:57:50 ◼   ► Like for something like time machine

00:57:52 ◼   ► or for like a big archive files drive

00:57:53 ◼   ► or the drive you store all your iTunes media on or whatever,

00:57:56 ◼   ► that doesn't matter.

00:57:57 ◼   ► It's fast enough for that.

00:57:59 ◼   ► And so it would be such a cool setup

00:58:01 ◼   ► even if you never put a spinning disk in it

00:58:03 ◼   ► for like noise or heat or whatever reasons.

00:58:05 ◼   ► For me it would be noise.

00:58:06 ◼   ► But like you can get mounts that mount

00:58:09 ◼   ► a two and a half inch SSD

00:58:11 ◼   ► into a three and a half inch hard drive sized box.

00:58:14 ◼   ► And so just get two of those for like 12 bucks each.

00:58:16 ◼   ► Stick it in the Pegasus J2i

00:58:17 ◼   ► and you can mount two SATA SSDs

00:58:19 ◼   ► which these days don't cost very much anymore.

00:58:21 ◼   ► So that's pretty cool.

00:58:23 ◼   ► - Yeah, and the heat and noise,

00:58:24 ◼   ► like I'm doing this right now.

00:58:25 ◼   ► Like on my 2008 Mac Pro

00:58:27 ◼   ► that's still chugging along down there.

00:58:29 ◼   ► I boot off a one terabyte Samsung SSD

00:58:32 ◼   ► and the spinning disks are all unmounted

00:58:35 ◼   ► or otherwise asleep.

00:58:37 ◼   ► And when the thing wakes up at 3 a.m.

00:58:39 ◼   ► to do a super duper backup,

00:58:41 ◼   ► it will mount the disk,

00:58:42 ◼   ► do the super duper backup and unmount it.

00:58:44 ◼   ► Like so during the day it's not on and not spinning

00:58:47 ◼   ► and therefore makes no noise and no heat.

00:58:49 ◼   ► - That's cool.

00:58:50 ◼   ► - But I have the advantage

00:58:52 ◼   ► that I have cheap spinning disk storage

00:58:54 ◼   ► to do a super duper backup or a time machine or whatever.

00:58:57 ◼   ► This is all pre-NAS.

00:58:58 ◼   ► I did this budget and this only has four internal drives,

00:59:00 ◼   ► the one SSD and the three spinning disks.

00:59:02 ◼   ► My bootcamp disk in this very machine is a spinning disk

00:59:05 ◼   ► with I think Windows XP on it or something.

00:59:06 ◼   ► Anyway, I'm excited about my bootcamp future.

00:59:11 ◼   ► I did confirm that with the Apple folks

00:59:13 ◼   ► that the Mac Pro does indeed support bootcamp.

00:59:17 ◼   ► How well we'll see,

00:59:18 ◼   ► but at least that's the official party line

00:59:19 ◼   ► that it supports it.

00:59:20 ◼   ► - That's step one.

00:59:22 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:59:23 ◼   ► So details about the Mac Pro,

00:59:25 ◼   ► not too much stuff, but just little stuff

00:59:26 ◼   ► that mostly we knew probably the day after the live show,

00:59:29 ◼   ► but since the live show is on keynote day,

00:59:30 ◼   ► there's a lot we don't know.

00:59:32 ◼   ► So we discussed never knows the sort of lift off case

00:59:35 ◼   ► where rather than a door opening on the side

00:59:37 ◼   ► or the back or something,

00:59:38 ◼   ► you lift the entire case off vertically.

00:59:41 ◼   ► And that's cool in the demos and it lets you do,

00:59:46 ◼   ► has a whole cool handle on top

00:59:48 ◼   ► and you reveal the naked robotic core underneath.

00:59:51 ◼   ► And shortly after the intro, I got to thinking,

00:59:55 ◼   ► if I put this under a desk,

00:59:57 ◼   ► I can't lift the case off to like get it the RAM or anything

01:00:01 ◼   ► because they will hit the desk.

01:00:03 ◼   ► So again, wheels would come in handy here.

01:00:05 ◼   ► I'd have to slide it out from the desk

01:00:07 ◼   ► to get the vertical space to lift the top of the thing off.

01:00:11 ◼   ► The second thing that I learned from the folks

01:00:13 ◼   ► in the come look at a live Mac Pro thing is that

01:00:16 ◼   ► if you lift the case off, the computer will turn off.

01:00:20 ◼   ► Like the computer cannot be on when the case is lifted off.

01:00:23 ◼   ► There's like an interlock mechanism and a locking thing

01:00:26 ◼   ► where if it was on and you tried to twist that handle,

01:00:28 ◼   ► it just cuts power to the whole thing.

01:00:30 ◼   ► Like you cannot take the case off with the computer still on

01:00:33 ◼   ► which is unlike all the power Mac G5 and the Mac Pro.

01:00:37 ◼   ► I frequently take the door off my Mac Pro

01:00:40 ◼   ► while it's still running to look around in there

01:00:42 ◼   ► to blow some dust while it's still going

01:00:44 ◼   ► or to check on some weird fan noise that I think I hear

01:00:46 ◼   ► to see what the deal is.

01:00:48 ◼   ► Not in this computer.

01:00:49 ◼   ► When the case is off, the computer is off.

01:00:52 ◼   ► And the final thing that's made me think about

01:00:54 ◼   ► which I didn't think to ask when I was there,

01:00:55 ◼   ► but now I'm kind of curious about is,

01:00:58 ◼   ► so the Mac Pro has ports on top of the case,

01:01:00 ◼   ► but when you lift the case off, the ports come with it.

01:01:05 ◼   ► So how do the ports connect to the rest of the computer?

01:01:08 ◼   ► There must be some really cool like, you know,

01:01:10 ◼   ► interconnecting, custom interconnect mechanism

01:01:13 ◼   ► that like plugs the Thunderbolt ports and the power button

01:01:17 ◼   ► and all the other sort of circuitry into the computer.

01:01:19 ◼   ► And I would love to see what that looks like.

01:01:21 ◼   ► You couldn't see it at the live thing

01:01:23 ◼   ► 'cause they just had sort of the naked robotic core

01:01:25 ◼   ► with nothing in it and enclosed Mac Pros.

01:01:28 ◼   ► They didn't have, at least in any of the meetings

01:01:30 ◼   ► that I was in, they didn't have a place

01:01:31 ◼   ► where you could actually look at the inside of the case.

01:01:33 ◼   ► So as soon as I fix it gets this thing,

01:01:35 ◼   ► that'll be fun to see how all that stuff works.

01:01:37 ◼   ► That's pretty cool.

01:01:39 ◼   ► Yeah, and speaking of the case and the holes

01:01:41 ◼   ► that everybody loves or everybody loves to hate,

01:01:44 ◼   ► I guess there's two items with this.

01:01:45 ◼   ► One, I've seen a lot of people speculating

01:01:48 ◼   ► about how the holes are made.

01:01:50 ◼   ► Some person took some wood in their wood shop

01:01:53 ◼   ► and tried to make the same hole pattern

01:01:54 ◼   ► by using like a drill bit.

01:01:56 ◼   ► It came pretty close.

01:01:58 ◼   ► It looked very similar.

01:02:00 ◼   ► But I think, and I heard it described on another podcast

01:02:03 ◼   ► as like one set of circles and another set of circles

01:02:06 ◼   ► behind it that are offset,

01:02:07 ◼   ► that just like they're circular holes

01:02:08 ◼   ► but they're offset from each other.

01:02:10 ◼   ► And that's not actually what it is.

01:02:12 ◼   ► Again, I can't, we haven't seen the inside of it,

01:02:15 ◼   ► but from the outside I'm pretty sure

01:02:16 ◼   ► the way this is machined is that the holes,

01:02:20 ◼   ► or if you can imagine the tool that makes this,

01:02:22 ◼   ► I think the tool basically makes hemispherical dents.

01:02:27 ◼   ► Right, so they're not,

01:02:28 ◼   ► it's not just making cylindrical cuts,

01:02:30 ◼   ► it's cutting little, like the dimples on a golf ball,

01:02:33 ◼   ► little hemispherical dents.

01:02:35 ◼   ► - Yeah, that explains the shape.

01:02:36 ◼   ► And that's why the wood mockup wasn't quite the same

01:02:40 ◼   ► because it was more of a cylinder.

01:02:42 ◼   ► And it does seem like the tool

01:02:45 ◼   ► that is milling out these holes,

01:02:47 ◼   ► although we don't know anything about manufacturing,

01:02:48 ◼   ► but it seems like it has a rounded end

01:02:52 ◼   ► as opposed to a flat end.

01:02:53 ◼   ► - Yeah, who knows, it could just be some single thing

01:02:55 ◼   ► that's like 3D printed, or not 3D printed,

01:02:57 ◼   ► but you know what I mean,

01:02:58 ◼   ► like a single tiny pointy tool that makes hemispherical

01:03:00 ◼   ► shapes, but anyway, my impression is that

01:03:03 ◼   ► there are hemispherical divots cut on the front

01:03:05 ◼   ► and there is a series of offset hemispherical divots

01:03:09 ◼   ► cut on the back.

01:03:10 ◼   ► So again, I'd love to see this thing and take a look at it.

01:03:12 ◼   ► And the reason we're talking about these little holes is,

01:03:16 ◼   ► I forget where I heard this,

01:03:18 ◼   ► someone was saying, oh, the design for these holes

01:03:20 ◼   ► actually has been around Apple for a long time.

01:03:22 ◼   ► And Marco, when he was hanging out in the,

01:03:26 ◼   ► let's look at the Mac Pro room with Tim Cook and Johnny Ive,

01:03:30 ◼   ► the discussion they were having about it,

01:03:31 ◼   ► this happens all the time,

01:03:32 ◼   ► like if you see Tim Cook and Johnny Ive

01:03:34 ◼   ► in like a demo room after a press thing,

01:03:36 ◼   ► no matter what it is, they're always talking to each other.

01:03:38 ◼   ► And Johnny is always telling Tim about things.

01:03:40 ◼   ► And I've always thought, is that like theater?

01:03:44 ◼   ► Or is Johnny telling Tim things that he doesn't know?

01:03:47 ◼   ► Like you would think, Johnny's saying,

01:03:48 ◼   ► well, we decided to make the,

01:03:50 ◼   ► does Tim not know?

01:03:51 ◼   ► Has he not been in the meetings?

01:03:52 ◼   ► Did someone not review, say, by the way,

01:03:53 ◼   ► we're releasing a Mac Pro, let me tell you about it?

01:03:55 ◼   ► Tim always is like, he's hearing about it

01:03:57 ◼   ► for the very first time.

01:03:58 ◼   ► Oh, tell me more about the case.

01:03:59 ◼   ► Why did you make it like this?

01:04:01 ◼   ► Anyway, they were having one of those conversations,

01:04:03 ◼   ► legitimate or not, I don't know.

01:04:05 ◼   ► - I think it's a little bit of theater.

01:04:06 ◼   ► - Yeah. - I'm honest, it has to be.

01:04:08 ◼   ► - I don't know.

01:04:08 ◼   ► But in that conversation that Marco was standing near,

01:04:13 ◼   ► someone was filming it on their phone

01:04:15 ◼   ► and they uploaded a video and you can kind of hear,

01:04:18 ◼   ► kind of make out Tim and Johnny's conversation.

01:04:20 ◼   ► As far as I can tell, and as far as other people

01:04:22 ◼   ► on the internet can tell by trying to decipher

01:04:24 ◼   ► what they're saying in this noisy room,

01:04:26 ◼   ► Johnny is telling Tim that the lattice pattern

01:04:29 ◼   ► on the front of the new Mac Pro

01:04:32 ◼   ► was originally developed for the G4 Cube,

01:04:35 ◼   ► developed for, but not released on the G4 Cube.

01:04:38 ◼   ► So like they were trying to come up with,

01:04:40 ◼   ► this, the G4 Cube was like a chimney heat remover thing,

01:04:45 ◼   ► like there's no fans, but there was like cold air

01:04:47 ◼   ► comes in the bottom and then the hot air rises, right?

01:04:50 ◼   ► That was like a convection type system.

01:04:52 ◼   ► And I assume they were gonna use this for

01:04:54 ◼   ► either the top or the bottom of the convection.

01:04:56 ◼   ► They ended up using something a lot simpler

01:04:57 ◼   ► with little slots or whatever.

01:04:59 ◼   ► But I think that's what they said.

01:05:01 ◼   ► So if you're wondering how Apple came up with this strange,

01:05:05 ◼   ► some people think ugly, some people think upsetting,

01:05:07 ◼   ► design for the front of their Mac Pro,

01:05:09 ◼   ► the answer is apparently that they came up with it

01:05:12 ◼   ► for the G4 Cube, which was what, 2001?

01:05:15 ◼   ► So, you know, 18 years ago, and now it sees the light of day

01:05:20 ◼   ► on the front and back of their amazing new computer

01:05:23 ◼   ► and the back of their monitor.

01:05:26 ◼   ► - Yeah, and I'm guessing, I mean, part of the reason

01:05:28 ◼   ► why they might not have used it before

01:05:30 ◼   ► is that people were telling us about manufacturing,

01:05:33 ◼   ► that in order to manufacture that,

01:05:35 ◼   ► in order to have the tool that drills out all those holes,

01:05:38 ◼   ► it's basically just really expensive.

01:05:39 ◼   ► It's gonna be a very expensive type of pattern

01:05:43 ◼   ► and material to make.

01:05:44 ◼   ► And so they might have decided back in the G4 Cube days,

01:05:47 ◼   ► we don't need to do this, it's too expensive,

01:05:49 ◼   ► and we'll just use a simpler pattern instead.

01:05:52 ◼   ► But with this product, I think they have,

01:05:55 ◼   ► price is less of an object to them for this product now,

01:05:58 ◼   ► these days, and also, they, I think,

01:06:02 ◼   ► the design of it is more important to them

01:06:06 ◼   ► than it used to be.

01:06:07 ◼   ► Like the physical design of the metal is more important now

01:06:10 ◼   ► to modern day Apple than it was in 2001.

01:06:13 ◼   ► - Yeah, they did some attempts to justify it

01:06:15 ◼   ► during the keynote and in the little videos of saying

01:06:17 ◼   ► that it allows lots of air to go through

01:06:19 ◼   ► and that is incredibly structurally strong.

01:06:22 ◼   ► Structurally strong, I'm sure that's true,

01:06:24 ◼   ► but it's pointless because, as I said in the live show,

01:06:27 ◼   ► who cares, it's not a load-bearing part.

01:06:30 ◼   ► Like there's no, there doesn't need to be strong.

01:06:33 ◼   ► And as for air going through, I would imagine

01:06:35 ◼   ► that there is more open space on the front

01:06:37 ◼   ► of the old cheese grater, like cumulatively,

01:06:39 ◼   ► than there is in this one.

01:06:40 ◼   ► The bottom line, they just did it 'cause it looks cool.

01:06:42 ◼   ► Like, it was just fine, it's the fine reason to do it.

01:06:45 ◼   ► You know, it may be upsetting to some people,

01:06:47 ◼   ► I think, after seeing it in person,

01:06:49 ◼   ► I find it a lot less upsetting in person

01:06:51 ◼   ► than I did in pictures.

01:06:52 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:06:53 ◼   ► - Still probably not my cup of tea,

01:06:54 ◼   ► but it does look better when you see one in person.

01:06:57 ◼   ► - Yeah, like when you see the pictures of it,

01:06:59 ◼   ► they're doing this very like perfectly evenly lit,

01:07:02 ◼   ► perfectly straight on flat view of it,

01:07:05 ◼   ► which it looks really weird that way.

01:07:07 ◼   ► And that's why I'm going to refuse to ever use

01:07:10 ◼   ► that whole pattern as part of our podcast artwork,

01:07:12 ◼   ► because it's really weird looking from the front.

01:07:14 ◼   ► But when you see it in person, you're not seeing it

01:07:17 ◼   ► in that exact perfection, even lighting it.

01:07:19 ◼   ► Like, you're seeing it as a 3D object in space,

01:07:22 ◼   ► and so like, and anyone can do that by downloading

01:07:25 ◼   ► the AR model from the website on your phone or your iPad.

01:07:28 ◼   ► And you can see for yourself, like when you actually see it

01:07:31 ◼   ► in 3D space, it doesn't look as upsetting.

01:07:33 ◼   ► I wouldn't say it looks good, honestly,

01:07:35 ◼   ► but it doesn't look upsetting.

01:07:37 ◼   ► But I think they also, like, I think you're right,

01:07:40 ◼   ► they did it now in part because they could,

01:07:43 ◼   ► in part because I think they have more price,

01:07:45 ◼   ► you know, profit margin with which to use

01:07:48 ◼   ► to do fancy machining.

01:07:50 ◼   ► But also, I think they were going back

01:07:52 ◼   ► to a cheese grater, basically.

01:07:54 ◼   ► I don't think they wanted it to look

01:07:55 ◼   ► that similar to the old one.

01:07:58 ◼   ► And so, if they would have done a simpler whole pattern,

01:08:01 ◼   ► maybe it would have looked too similar.

01:08:02 ◼   ► And maybe they wanted to make a really big statement

01:08:04 ◼   ► that like, that this wasn't like a retreat,

01:08:07 ◼   ► this wasn't like they got defeated by their fancy

01:08:10 ◼   ► cylinder design and they had to go back to this cheese grater.

01:08:12 ◼   ► They wanted this to look like a new thing,

01:08:14 ◼   ► a separate thing, and to have it look striking

01:08:17 ◼   ► and radically different from what was there in the old one.

01:08:20 ◼   ► So, from that point of view, if that was one of their goals,

01:08:22 ◼   ► I think they succeeded because this really does look

01:08:25 ◼   ► very different than the cheese grater,

01:08:26 ◼   ► even though it basically is a cheese grater.

01:08:29 ◼   ► - Yeah, and they could have gone with the vertical slats

01:08:30 ◼   ► or horizontal slats or also some other patterns,

01:08:32 ◼   ► but they did go with, you know, fairly circular holes.

01:08:34 ◼   ► But here's the thing, this, like,

01:08:36 ◼   ► I think this pulls off the thing that good Apple hardware

01:08:39 ◼   ► always pulls off.

01:08:40 ◼   ► When I came home and looked at my 2008 Mac Pro under my desk,

01:08:43 ◼   ► it looked old.

01:08:44 ◼   ► - I mean, to be fair, it is really old.

01:08:47 ◼   ► - True. - Very, very old.

01:08:48 ◼   ► - It looked much older than it did before I left,

01:08:51 ◼   ► the week before when I left for WWC,

01:08:53 ◼   ► mostly because you see that like, oh, this is just like,

01:08:56 ◼   ► you know, kind of not too thick aluminum bent in a C shape

01:09:00 ◼   ► with a door on the side and then some even thinner aluminum

01:09:03 ◼   ► bent around the front with holes drilled in it.

01:09:06 ◼   ► Like, it's not as impressive a piece of sculpture.

01:09:09 ◼   ► And you mentioned like, showing the computer from the front,

01:09:13 ◼   ► like, I took some pictures myself,

01:09:15 ◼   ► I tweeted them the other day of the Mac Pros,

01:09:18 ◼   ► and I think even in my own, directly from the front

01:09:20 ◼   ► with Apple sort of glamor lighting on it,

01:09:23 ◼   ► I think even that looks good.

01:09:24 ◼   ► Like, it looks like a more impressive thing.

01:09:27 ◼   ► It looks, it doesn't look like most things,

01:09:29 ◼   ► most things you see are, most products you see

01:09:32 ◼   ► look the way they do, partly because it is efficient

01:09:35 ◼   ► and/or inexpensive to manufacture in that way.

01:09:37 ◼   ► And so when you see something that is not efficient

01:09:39 ◼   ► to manufacture and that is expensive to manufacture,

01:09:42 ◼   ► it stands out to you because you're not used to seeing

01:09:44 ◼   ► products that are like that.

01:09:45 ◼   ► It's true of some of the exteriors and interiors

01:09:48 ◼   ► of very, very fancy cars, and it's also true

01:09:50 ◼   ► of the best Apple hardware.

01:09:52 ◼   ► And this new tower, even though it's like,

01:09:55 ◼   ► oh, it's just another cheese grater,

01:09:56 ◼   ► standing next to an old-style cheese grater,

01:09:59 ◼   ► it looks much more expensive.

01:10:01 ◼   ► It just does, like, it looks like an object

01:10:04 ◼   ► that should cost more based on pure manufacturing alone,

01:10:08 ◼   ► and I'm sure it does.

01:10:09 ◼   ► So in that respect, it is fulfilling that of like,

01:10:12 ◼   ► it does not look like a retreat, it looks like an advancement

01:10:15 ◼   ► it looks like a fancier product

01:10:17 ◼   ► than the old cheese grater Mac Pro.

01:10:19 ◼   ► - And I mean, it is, like, you know,

01:10:22 ◼   ► price and segmentation-wise, like the old Mac Pro,

01:10:25 ◼   ► when that was, I mean, first of all, it was basically a G5,

01:10:27 ◼   ► you know, with slight modifications to the exterior,

01:10:29 ◼   ► but the, like, the original Mac Pro in 2006,

01:10:33 ◼   ► you could get one, they had a, as John would say,

01:10:35 ◼   ► a stripper configuration for like $1,700 or $1,600.

01:10:39 ◼   ► It was actually below $2,000 if you, like,

01:10:42 ◼   ► went to only one CPU, and there were a couple other options

01:10:45 ◼   ► you could do.

01:10:46 ◼   ► So like, that computer had to be sold for $1,600,

01:10:50 ◼   ► so the minimum price of what, like, what the case

01:10:54 ◼   ► and power supply and everything had to cost

01:10:56 ◼   ► was much lower than when your base configuration is $6,000.

01:11:00 ◼   ► Even after inflation, it doesn't come close

01:11:03 ◼   ► to being a similar price range, like, it's not even close.

01:11:07 ◼   ► And so, they have the flexibility, you know,

01:11:10 ◼   ► by having this only be a high-end thing,

01:11:12 ◼   ► and actually I wanna talk about that in a minute,

01:11:14 ◼   ► but by having this only be a high-end thing,

01:11:16 ◼   ► they gave themselves the flexibility in manufacturing

01:11:18 ◼   ► to say, you know what, if the case ends up costing

01:11:21 ◼   ► $700 to manufacture, instead of a more simple one

01:11:24 ◼   ► that the cheese grater might have cost, like,

01:11:25 ◼   ► $200 to manufacture, like, they have the room

01:11:28 ◼   ► for that in the budget.

01:11:29 ◼   ► Now, that being said, I did wanna talk about, like,

01:11:31 ◼   ► there has been, you know, when we did our show,

01:11:34 ◼   ► mere hours after this thing was unveiled,

01:11:37 ◼   ► we were, you know, we were all, like, still

01:11:38 ◼   ► in, like, the high of this, and everybody was amazed by it

01:11:41 ◼   ► and talking about the ridiculous pricing, the monitor stand,

01:11:43 ◼   ► but since then, I've seen, there's actually been

01:11:46 ◼   ► a lot of criticism of the Mac Pro itself

01:11:49 ◼   ► being such an expensive thing, and starting at $6,000

01:11:52 ◼   ► and everything else, and I did wanna talk

01:11:54 ◼   ► about that briefly, and I said a little bit

01:11:57 ◼   ► this last week of, like, people, when the original

01:12:01 ◼   ► tower Mac Pro came out in 2006, back then,

01:12:05 ◼   ► you needed a desktop more than you do now.

01:12:08 ◼   ► Like, more types of pro work needed a big desktop,

01:12:11 ◼   ► because CPUs weren't that fast yet, there weren't

01:12:14 ◼   ► that many cores available in laptops,

01:12:17 ◼   ► and SSDs hadn't happened yet, and so the difference

01:12:20 ◼   ► between a desktop and a laptop was significantly greater

01:12:24 ◼   ► in many common tasks that many people do,

01:12:27 ◼   ► not just, like, the highest end of the high end use cases,

01:12:30 ◼   ► like, you know, video encoding, which is always the example,

01:12:32 ◼   ► right, so, like, video editors and people doing, like,

01:12:36 ◼   ► super big data sets, like 3D modeling

01:12:38 ◼   ► or scientific research computing, like,

01:12:40 ◼   ► huge things like that, those can always justify

01:12:43 ◼   ► the biggest and biggest and biggest hardware,

01:12:44 ◼   ► but there's a whole lot of more common use cases

01:12:47 ◼   ► where you don't necessarily need that,

01:12:50 ◼   ► and over time, the number of people,

01:12:52 ◼   ► or, like, the percentage of, like, types of work

01:12:55 ◼   ► that need that highest end of high end hardware

01:12:57 ◼   ► keeps going down, because the hardware

01:13:00 ◼   ► that is more mainstream, that's available, like,

01:13:01 ◼   ► across all sizes and prices and everything,

01:13:05 ◼   ► is more and more capable for more and more people's

01:13:07 ◼   ► actual needs than it was in 2006, and so, like, right now,

01:13:11 ◼   ► like, you know, people always say, like,

01:13:13 ◼   ► I need to get the greatest thing to do video editing.

01:13:15 ◼   ► When you started doing video editing, like,

01:13:17 ◼   ► when 4K video first came out, people were editing 4K video

01:13:20 ◼   ► on, you know, big towers and everything, well, now,

01:13:23 ◼   ► you can get that exact same power in a laptop,

01:13:26 ◼   ► and you don't even necessarily need the biggest laptop.

01:13:28 ◼   ► Like, now, like, a 13-inch MacBook Pro

01:13:31 ◼   ► can edit video just fine.

01:13:33 ◼   ► It might not be as fast as the 15, but it can do it,

01:13:37 ◼   ► and for most people who are creating video

01:13:40 ◼   ► and editing video, that's actually enough.

01:13:43 ◼   ► Anything above that is a luxury,

01:13:45 ◼   ► but it's not actually that necessary.

01:13:47 ◼   ► For me, as a developer, my iMac Pro,

01:13:49 ◼   ► I have a 10-core iMac Pro.

01:13:51 ◼   ► It's wonderful.

01:13:53 ◼   ► It is, in my tests, faster than a four-core MacBook Pro,

01:13:58 ◼   ► but not two and a half times faster, as you'd think,

01:14:03 ◼   ► and looking at the Mac Pro now, like,

01:14:05 ◼   ► I don't need the Mac Pro.

01:14:07 ◼   ► I actually, honestly, I'm having extreme skepticism

01:14:10 ◼   ► about whether I'll even get one,

01:14:11 ◼   ► which I know you'll make fun of me,

01:14:13 ◼   ► but, like, the Mac Pro is so, like,

01:14:16 ◼   ► stratified above everything else, not just in price,

01:14:20 ◼   ► although it is, to be fair,

01:14:21 ◼   ► it is very much stratified in price,

01:14:23 ◼   ► but in who even needs this thing,

01:14:26 ◼   ► it's a very small market of people

01:14:28 ◼   ► who actually need this thing,

01:14:30 ◼   ► and people who want to have their own upgradeable PCs

01:14:33 ◼   ► as more of, like, just like a value thing

01:14:36 ◼   ► or a long-term upgradeability and maintenance thing

01:14:38 ◼   ► or a hobbyist thing, people who want that,

01:14:41 ◼   ► that really upsets them, that, like,