00:00:00 ◼ ► So you live in a... affluent, is that right? No, why do you, it's only two ways to do it. Just
00:00:07 ◼ ► do the opposite of what you think you're gonna do. It's not, it's affluent, that just sounds wrong to
00:00:11 ◼ ► me. But that's how the pronounce the word, I didn't make it up. Oh god. Just think about it. Maybe
00:00:16 ◼ ► think of like Aflac, the Aflac duck. Oh! Affluent, Aflac. That's a good Mnemonic. It's a good what now?
00:00:24 ◼ ► It was a joke. I know it's Mnemonic. It was a joke. It was a joke. Everybody relax. Okay, so we should
00:00:30 ◼ ► start right at the top of the show and remind everyone. I know I got really obnoxious about it
00:00:36 ◼ ► last week. You're welcome on the, or I should say that Marco should say you're welcome, because I
00:00:42 ◼ ► noticed he cut quite a bit of my lecturing, as he should have, about how now is the time,
00:00:47 ◼ ► ladies and gentlemen. Now is the time, ladies and gentlemen, to go to ATP.fm/store in order to find
00:00:54 ◼ ► links to Cotton Bureau's website where we have all sorts of different merchandise up. Every year,
00:01:00 ◼ ► somebody, actually usually many somebody, says, "Oh, I meant to do it and I forgot and I can,
00:01:07 ◼ ► is there any way? Is there any?" No, there is no way. Pull the car over, stop your run,
00:01:19 ◼ ► and buy yourself some delightful merch. And I'll just leave it at that this week. Moving on, let's
00:01:24 ◼ ► start with some follow-up. Rob McAlvey has written in to say that the Australia Post website terms
00:01:30 ◼ ► and conditions have a whole section telling you what to do to get approval to link to their
00:01:34 ◼ ► website. This came up within the context of, what is it, Luminary, something like that? I already
00:01:39 ◼ ► forgot the name of the stupid thing. Yeah, Luminary. It was telling them that they, you can't
00:01:42 ◼ ► put my podcast in your feed. So Rob writes that, you know, in the context of us saying who's in
00:01:47 ◼ ► control of, you know, whether or not a podcast ends up in Luminary, and we were joking about,
00:01:51 ◼ ► well, who's in control of who links to your website? Well, apparently the Australia Post
00:01:55 ◼ ► has some guidelines about how you can link to their website, which is something else. It's not
00:02:02 ◼ ► that long, but it's surprising to me that this exists. Well, you're saying this is a thing that
00:02:06 ◼ ► websites used to do before they understood the web. This is notable because this is a current
00:02:09 ◼ ► website that is live right now that says if you want to establish a link to the website, you must
00:02:13 ◼ ► first seek approval from Australia Posts. And also if the nature or content of your website changes
00:02:19 ◼ ► in any significant way, you must contact the Australia Post. Yeah, we'll get right on that.
00:02:22 ◼ ► Well, this brings the obvious question of, are we allowed to link to this from our show notes?
00:02:35 ◼ ► writes, this is, hey, whoever put this in the show notes didn't include the where. I'm sorry,
00:02:40 ◼ ► Roger Allen. I didn't want to nail it down too much. He did get the location of where he's an
00:02:44 ◼ ► associate professor of law, but you know, I don't know. Don't be creepy. All right. By providing an
00:02:49 ◼ ► app that allows members of the public to receive transmissions of album art and podcast audio,
00:02:54 ◼ ► Luminary could be said to perform or display those copyrighted works. By embedding a podcast
00:02:59 ◼ ► copyrighted artwork within the app and playing copyrighted episodes, a podcast player app would
00:03:03 ◼ ► be infringing on the exclusive rights to public performance or display. I don't know why the
00:03:08 ◼ ► Times and others want to block Luminary, but they are essentially on solid legal ground doing so.
00:03:12 ◼ ► I should have said context. I'm sorry. This was, you know, whether or not it's even really possible
00:03:17 ◼ ► for these podcasts and podcast hosts to block their shows from appearing Luminary. And I think
00:03:23 ◼ ► Roger wasn't necessarily saying that this was a slam dunk case, if I recall this email correctly,
00:03:29 ◼ ► but I believe he was basically saying, it's possible. Like it is certainly plausible in
00:03:33 ◼ ► the MythBusters, you know, canon. It is plausible that this could be enforced in American copyright
00:03:40 ◼ ► law. Yeah, this was a very long email that I was trying to condense here. But you know, this is
00:03:44 ◼ ► another instance where, you know, just because something is legal doesn't mean it's not also
00:03:50 ◼ ► stupid. Or reverse that because it really is very silly. But legally speaking, there are lots of
00:03:58 ◼ ► legal arguments you can make in favor of the idea that law, what can you do? That's why we have
00:04:04 ◼ ► lawyers. The thing with copyright law too is like, I mean, like much of law, if someone makes any
00:04:09 ◼ ► kind of copyright legal claim against you, you can't really fight it. Like you can't because it's
00:04:15 ◼ ► never going to get to a court. You never need to argue with somebody, well, what I'm doing is fair
00:04:18 ◼ ► use or what I'm doing is not constitute public performance. Like you're never going to argue
00:04:22 ◼ ► that. What's going to happen is if somebody has a complaint that they want their stuff off your app
00:04:27 ◼ ► or platform, they're going to complain to you. And if you don't respond, they're going to complain to
00:04:32 ◼ ► Apple or Google, you know, the app store provider. And if they don't respond, like they're going to
00:04:35 ◼ ► complain to your web host, like they can complain to different infrastructure providers up the chain
00:04:40 ◼ ► until one of them doesn't want to deal with it and just kicks you off. So the reality is there is no
00:04:45 ◼ ► copyright law defense online. If somebody wants to make a stink, they make a stink and you have to
00:04:51 ◼ ► comply. So the reality here is this is not a legal problem. This is a market problem that the only
00:04:59 ◼ ► defense that anybody has against this kind of thing is making an app or service where it is not in
00:05:05 ◼ ► anybody's best interest to opt out of your service or it is not, or like none, nobody would even think
00:05:10 ◼ ► to do that because it seems so ridiculous to do that. And that's where most podcast apps land in
00:05:16 ◼ ► that kind of area. But Luminary, by angering everybody, everyone is, you know, looking for
00:05:22 ◼ ► things they can do because they're mad. And that's, I think that's what a lot of this stuff was.
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00:06:58 ◼ ► code accidentaltech for your free two months of Clear. Thank you so much to Clear for sponsoring
00:07:03 ◼ ► our show. Overcast has come out with a really freaking cool new feature and I'd like to lodge
00:07:13 ◼ ► a complaint that hopefully we can rectify right now. Let's do it. I was listening to Under the
00:07:19 ◼ ► Radar which is an excellent podcast with Marco and our good friend Dave Smith and you kind of
00:07:27 ◼ ► fluffed over all the technical aspects of how this feature works and we'll explain the feature
00:07:32 ◼ ► momentarily but I am here for the technical explanation of how this feature works to the
00:07:38 ◼ ► degree that you are willing to share. Now I should probably back up and explain what the hell I'm
00:07:42 ◼ ► talking about but I would like it to be on record that I am all about figuring out or not figuring
00:07:47 ◼ ► out but hearing about how you did this because this sounds fascinating to me but what am I
00:07:52 ◼ ► talking about? So out of nowhere and I did not know this was coming. I don't think Jon knew this
00:07:58 ◼ ► was coming and you had said on maybe Under the Radar that only a couple of people did know it
00:08:04 ◼ ► was coming but all of a sudden in the last couple of days Marco and his app Overcast have released
00:08:10 ◼ ► this new clips feature and the idea is and Marco if I'm you know characterizing this unfairly just
00:08:17 ◼ ► feel free to cut me off but the idea is hey you know podcasts are not easy to share in the same
00:08:21 ◼ ► way like a gif or in some degree a YouTube video is and Marco has for years and years had timestamp
00:08:29 ◼ ► links where you can go to a the Overcast website and it will open to a specific time in the podcast
00:08:36 ◼ ► which works great except for all the big shows with dynamic ad insertion for all the reasons we
00:08:40 ◼ ► already spoke about etc etc plus it's still hard to know like am I supposed to be listening to the
00:08:45 ◼ ► last 45 minutes of this episode and I'm just starting in the middle or am I supposed to listen
00:08:49 ◼ ► to 15 seconds or what what's the deal here and so Marco and perhaps you can discuss motivations
00:08:56 ◼ ► in a second other than that but it seemed like the idea was hey let's make it easy to share this
00:09:01 ◼ ► stuff and you know if they share it with Overcast clips feature that's some you know kind of
00:09:07 ◼ ► subliminal that's not the right word for it but kind of you know quiet marketing for Overcast
00:09:11 ◼ ► but then because you're a good person you decided to optionally allow people to remove the Overcast
00:09:17 ◼ ► branding or add branding for Apple Podcasts or even some of your competitors which I think is
00:09:22 ◼ ► really tremendous and I hope I don't sound sarcastic because I really do mean that I really
00:09:26 ◼ ► think that this is the right way to do it not the easy way not both in the literal sense of the word
00:09:33 ◼ ► word but also in the like should I really be promoting my competitors kind of thing but I
00:09:39 ◼ ► think this is the right way to do it and you're a good man Charlie Brown and I used this feature for
00:09:43 ◼ ► the first time a couple hours ago and I loved it I really want to know even if it's privately how you
00:09:50 ◼ ► did all this because I am neck deep in doing things that are considerably less complex and considerably
00:09:56 ◼ ► less advanced and so the thought of trying to implement this just makes me you know googly-eyed
00:10:02 ◼ ► but one way or another before we dive in if we even do dive into implementation I just wanted to
00:10:08 ◼ ► first of all publicly say I love this feature I think it's great I think you did right by
00:10:12 ◼ ► everyone including listeners including competitors including podcasters I really think this is a home
00:10:18 ◼ ► run but if you would like to revise anything I said or add any clarity please feel free.
00:10:33 ◼ ► One of the parts that Casey might have left off which I think is the most important part of this
00:10:40 ◼ ► entire feature actually before I get into that I'll briefly touch on the links at the bottom
00:10:46 ◼ ► where like you could link to competitors and stuff like that I feel like there's a little bit of the
00:11:01 ◼ ► Luminary is not a threat to me Spotify is a threat to all of us but I don't know how to link to
00:11:06 ◼ ► Spotify when what I have is an iTunes ID. Every app that I link to there has a way that I can
00:11:12 ◼ ► generate a URL knowing the iTunes ID of the podcast. I don't know how to do that for some
00:11:18 ◼ ► other services like Spotify and so I don't do that if Spotify had some way that I could say like you
00:11:23 ◼ ► know Spotify.com/podcast/itunes12345 and I know that anybody I sent there would get redirected
00:11:29 ◼ ► to whatever Spotify's giant garbage URL was would be for that podcast I would add them.
00:11:38 ◼ ► as in they they read RSS feeds. There's two sides of this like I do want to only support open
00:11:46 ◼ ► based podcast apps if I can but also I want the share page to be so useful that big publishers
00:11:53 ◼ ► will be tempted to use it and if big publishers you know have a lot of their audience on Spotify
00:12:00 ◼ ► they're not going to even consider using a page like a you know a share page that has a bunch of
00:12:06 ◼ ► other apps but not Spotify. Now that being said this might be a a moot concern because big
00:12:12 ◼ ► publishers would probably never use these at all anyway they're probably going to use only their
00:12:15 ◼ ► own stuff because that's how this how they usually work so like this might be you know a moot
00:12:20 ◼ ► argument but ideally I would like that I would like those pages to be as like broad appeal on
00:12:28 ◼ ► the client side as possible. All right well getting back to my original point and then I think it's
00:12:32 ◼ ► the most important feature of this and which may not have been clear in all of our descriptions
00:12:36 ◼ ► when you activate this feature what you get in the end that you can stick in your tweet or
00:12:43 ◼ ► whatever the hell is a video which is like you're sharing podcasts if I'm sharing podcasts why the
00:12:50 ◼ ► hell do I get a video at the end of it it's not it's not a video medium it's audio and Overcast
00:12:56 ◼ ► already had audio share links granted without an ending timestamp but Marco could have added an
00:12:59 ◼ ► ending timestamp or a duration very easily as another query parameter or something but he didn't
00:13:03 ◼ ► why is this feature video the fact that it's video is I think the most important and most
00:13:09 ◼ ► attractive thing about this feature for a couple of reasons one is the obvious one of like when it
00:13:14 ◼ ► makes the video the content of the actual video includes like essentially the brand of the podcast
00:13:19 ◼ ► the the album art or whatever the hell you want to call it of the podcast which is important for
00:13:24 ◼ ► branding and recognition to know instead of just following an Overcast timestamp link and I mean
00:13:30 ◼ ► you'd go to overcast.com and you'd see the thing or whatever but like it's yeah so there is a
00:13:34 ◼ ► presentational detail there but I think the most important reason is that people want something
00:13:39 ◼ ► to look at and it seems weird because it's like well isn't it all just about being in the headphones
00:13:44 ◼ ► and just listening to the thing or whatever just and the only thing that happens on it is like
00:13:49 ◼ ► there's a progress bar that progresses just being able to see a progress bar and to see how much
00:13:52 ◼ ► longer there is in a clip individually to see the album art while you listen people like to look at
00:13:57 ◼ ► videos and like I don't know if this was a conscious like if you went through this whole
00:14:02 ◼ ► thought process or decided this was important about it but I think it is essential I think part
00:14:07 ◼ ► of the reason people share these is because all the social sharing services are optimized for
00:14:12 ◼ ► sharing video you can play it right in the thing you don't get sent elsewhere you don't get sent
00:14:16 ◼ ► to a website all social media sharing type things have to be good at sharing video because all the
00:14:22 ◼ ► gifts get turned into video and all the little you know when vine was popular that was out there just
00:14:26 ◼ ► like it's part of social media part of good use of social media is to embed tiny videos so even if
00:14:33 ◼ ► you're sharing podcasts if you do it as embedding tiny videos that is the the the native lingua
00:14:39 ◼ ► franca of the entire social networking world and in practice I think people love it because it's
00:14:45 ◼ ► video I like it because it's video I find myself watching the little video of the thing which has
00:14:50 ◼ ► a tiny little progress bar that goes from left to right while I sort of see the album art out of my
00:14:54 ◼ ► peripheral vision it is a very simple feature but I think it is the genius part of this feature that
00:15:00 ◼ ► if you were just thinking about how to do this in a straightforward way you would have found a way to
00:15:04 ◼ ► share audio and then you would have found out how bad tiny audio clips are handled by most social
00:15:09 ◼ ► media networks I mean that is the entire feature the entire feature is generating video for social
00:15:15 ◼ ► network sharing like that is the whole point because and like you know I basically wrote the
00:15:20 ◼ ► feature for instagram like that everything else has been like oh it's nice to also use other
00:15:24 ◼ ► things but like the very first layout I made was the portrait layout for instagram stories
00:15:28 ◼ ► the reason why the videos are 16 by 9 or 9 by 16 or square is because those are the exact dimensions
00:15:36 ◼ ► of what instagram is is optimized for I even looked up like you know one some of the first
00:15:42 ◼ ► questions I had were like what is the what is the ideal resolution that you can submit to instagram
00:15:47 ◼ ► for a video like you know the pixel resolution and stuff and and by the way there's no information
00:15:52 ◼ ► about most of this out there and there's things like you know with instagram stories there are it
00:15:59 ◼ ► overlays certain controls in certain parts of the video so that's why I don't have anything in the
00:16:04 ◼ ► very top or very bottom of an instagram story video so anyway yeah this this was built for
00:16:09 ◼ ► social networks because the fact is like you know you said earlier like audio is the format of
00:16:15 ◼ ► podcasts but video is the format of sharing and so if you want to share things socially it needs to
00:16:23 ◼ ► be a photo or a video anything that like if you try to put something that doesn't have those it's
00:16:28 ◼ ► very easy for people to skim over and I think there's also you know like I think you mentioned
00:16:32 ◼ ► this I think there's also a an appeal of like when you are playing one of these clips there is
00:16:39 ◼ ► something for your eyes to do so like if it was suppose the twitter app or the instagram app were
00:16:45 ◼ ► really optimized for playing audio they're not but suppose they were if you do that you hit play you
00:16:51 ◼ ► keep scrolling and you keep scrolling you're reading things with your eyes and the linguistic
00:16:57 ◼ ► parsing parts of your brain and so you stop listening to what's being said if it's a talk
00:17:01 ◼ ► rate if it's a talk segment of the audio you need something visual to lock your eyes in place to
00:17:07 ◼ ► give them something to do so that you pay attention instead of continuing to scroll through a visual
00:17:14 ◼ ► format feed otherwise you wouldn't hear what's being said it wouldn't be very effective and if
00:17:18 ◼ ► you've ever seen a kid tap a youtube video while it was playing you're like why why are they tapping
00:17:26 ◼ ► the screen the video is playing it's everything's fine you know why they're tapping it to find out
00:17:30 ◼ ► how long this video is by seeing a progress bar you know how far along in the clip are you what
00:17:37 ◼ ► am i signing up for if i just hit play and it starts playing i'm like is this going to be like
00:17:42 ◼ ► 20 minutes of audio that i have to listen to am i expected to listen to 10 minutes how long is this
00:17:47 ◼ ► thing there's a progress bar right there and you can see very quickly and also you get to this in
00:17:51 ◼ ► a second that the actual maximum limit means that you're not going to be there for 20 minutes no
00:17:55 ◼ ► matter what which means that when the progress bar starts to move you'll see oh this is going
00:17:59 ◼ ► at a pretty good clip here huh uh it's going to be over pretty soon i'm about halfway through you
00:18:03 ◼ ► know how close you're getting to the end uh the second cool feature is that if in twitterific
00:18:08 ◼ ► anyway and some other video players when a large video starts to play this this looks for all the
00:18:12 ◼ ► world like like a player animation in like overcast or podcast app it has a progress bar let's say if
00:18:18 ◼ ► like me you briefly forget that this is a video playing and you think it's a uh a player app where
00:18:25 ◼ ► you can just grab the the scrubber like the little you know play head and the progress bar and drag
00:18:30 ◼ ► it to to fast forward to like three quarters of the way through lots of video playing apps
00:18:36 ◼ ► have a thing where when the video is playing if you swipe your finger across the screen it acts
00:18:42 ◼ ► as sort of a virtual progress bar really you can actually grab the little thumb in the video
00:18:47 ◼ ► and i didn't know that move your thumb like you're moving the progress bar and it doesn't match one
00:18:53 ◼ ► to one but it will basically do what you mean it's like you've made a fake interactive video that
00:18:59 ◼ ► tricks you into thinking it's interactive but it is not interactive it is just a video and all
00:19:03 ◼ ► you're doing is scrubbing it's uh it's unintentional genius great i'll take it so we've kind of talked
00:19:09 ◼ ► about what it is the motivation uh again i love this so much to the extent you're willing to
00:19:16 ◼ ► can you pull back the curtain and tell us kind of how at the very least how did it go on a
00:19:23 ◼ ► qualitative sense like was this pretty easy sailing or were you fighting this every step of the way
00:19:28 ◼ ► and then i am happy to go as deep as you want into the actual implementation i have a feeling that's
00:19:33 ◼ ► not going to be very far but um but but how how oh can i can i make a guess of the implementation
00:19:40 ◼ ► yeah go for it uh i know nothing about this this is just telling a wild ass guess right um because
00:19:46 ◼ ► if there's some easy api for doing it i assume casey wouldn't even be asking so well yes and no
00:19:51 ◼ ► i mean i i have a relatively okay idea of a lot of the surface area of the ios api but there's a lot
00:19:59 ◼ ► particularly media i don't know and either way i've only been doing this for real for a couple
00:20:04 ◼ ► of years whereas for marco it's been what 10 plus so there is a lot i don't know so i appreciate the
00:20:09 ◼ ► compliment but uh it's possible that it's easier than i thought that being said i bet you it's not
00:20:19 ◼ ► is if this any of this is true i'm pretty sure ios has a screen recording api and if you can get
00:20:24 ◼ ► an off-screen view and stick the the existing screen recording api at your off-screen view you
00:20:28 ◼ ► just go through the view and have the screen recording thing recorded right but that might
00:20:32 ◼ ► require it to be real time i don't know so that would be the one where like i didn't really really
00:20:35 ◼ ► have to do any work because ios already knows how to record the screen and i just have a record
00:20:38 ◼ ► off-screen screen and i just render the screen and that would work out the hard one is uh you know it
00:20:44 ◼ ► is a video is just a series of pictures you can render a view that is in the state that you want
00:20:50 ◼ ► and the only thing that changes is the progress bar so you can render a series of frames as
00:20:56 ◼ ► individual states of views and capture the view as an image and then surely there's some video api
00:21:01 ◼ ► that says hey i've got 700 images each of which is a frame of video construct a video out of these
00:21:07 ◼ ► frames that would be the hard way and i imagine that would be very painful and take a really long
00:21:12 ◼ ► time but it could be done given the constraints of what we see probably neither one of those are
00:21:16 ◼ ► right but those are the two things that immediately sprung to mind both of those would have been too
00:21:20 ◼ ► slow what the way this is so what i wanted to do i wanted something first of all that i could render
00:21:27 ◼ ► using ui kit style things so i could use like my fonts and my my text rendering and like have the
00:21:35 ◼ ► artwork render with the shadow and the rounded corners and everything basically using like the
00:21:40 ◼ ► the tools i use to render the interface i wanted to also render the video i also critically wanted
00:21:47 ◼ ► you to be able to preview it immediately upon generating the trimmed region for the audio so
00:21:54 ◼ ► when you trim the audio you you put it pushes when you say next or preview whatever it pushes you to
00:21:59 ◼ ► the preview screen and you can hit play and it renders it in real time like it plays it in real
00:22:05 ◼ ► time there's it doesn't have to render it to a video first and the reason why is because what
00:22:10 ◼ ► you're playing is not a video what you're playing is a core animation stack basically the entire all
00:22:17 ◼ ► of it is rendered using core animation and that makes it so you can scrub through it with that
00:22:22 ◼ ► scrubber on the bottom and when you hit the the save thing in the corner to bring up the
00:22:28 ◼ ► share sheet that's when it encodes all that to a video and i also i wanted to make sure also i
00:22:34 ◼ ► wanted the preview to be exactly right i did i wanted exactly what you see in the preview to be
00:22:39 ◼ ► what's rendered to the video so i didn't want it i didn't want the video to be using a different kind
00:22:42 ◼ ► of technology that would like maybe have like different text rendering or different you know
00:22:47 ◼ ► anti-aliasing on edges or something like that i wanted it to be exact so i wanted instant previewing
00:22:53 ◼ ► using core animation ui kit and stuff like that and and having the video look identical and there
00:23:01 ◼ ► is a way to do this i can tell you it's i'm using av export av asset export session oh god are these
00:23:08 ◼ ► names are so long for all these api's so the the preview video is not it's not ui views it's ca
00:23:18 ◼ ► layers the rendering is a av asset export session that somewhere buried deep in the api you can set
00:23:28 ◼ ► something called an animation tool and the animation tool is this weird api that lets you
00:23:34 ◼ ► basically overlay onto a video a core animation composition huh and and there's all and the thing
00:23:51 ◼ ► incredibly poorly documented and has the worst error reporting of anything i've ever used
00:24:04 ◼ ► you know the headers are basically useless the official documentation is basically useless
00:24:08 ◼ ► the only documentation that's any good is like stack overflow and blog posts usually which are
00:24:13 ◼ ► very old and sometimes sometimes out of date and because not a lot of people are doing this kind
00:24:20 ◼ ► of stuff there really isn't that much help on stack overflow in place like that like there's
00:24:24 ◼ ► some help but it's not not a lot and sometimes you will find other people asking like hey i got you
00:24:30 ◼ ► know error negative 319 when i did this what does that mean and it'll have responses but there'll
00:24:36 ◼ ► just be other people saying i got it too i don't know and occasionally somebody will be like well
00:24:41 ◼ ► i rewrote the entire thing and it fixed it so it's like okay right um and so there's all you've run
00:24:47 ◼ ► into all sorts of weird errors and failures my favorite failure astute users might have noticed
00:24:55 ◼ ► that occasionally the progress circle during the export restarts at zero have you have you guys
00:25:02 ◼ ► caught this happening no i haven't yeah someone's someone complained that it was taking like two
00:25:06 ◼ ► progress bars and i guess it was just the same progress bar attempt number two yes it isn't it
00:25:11 ◼ ► isn't uncommon i'd say it happens maybe i wanted it five times what happens is during the av asset
00:25:16 ◼ ► export of the video as it's rendering the video which i have very little visibility into but i
00:25:22 ◼ ► do have a progress value you know it's like 0.5 0.6 whatever during the export sometimes for
00:25:28 ◼ ► reasons i have not been able to figure out and that are not reported to me at all progress just
00:25:33 ◼ ► stops and it just it will never finish like when it gets to that state when progress stops of an
00:25:39 ◼ ► av asset export session it just never resumes i have no idea why this happens i found no
00:25:45 ◼ ► documentation about it i have you know found nobody reporting this elsewhere and there's no
00:25:51 ◼ ► error reported when it happens it just stops one time i i i tried like i i paused in the debugger
00:25:58 ◼ ► and i basically you know i i cancelled it and restarted it manually basically i kicked it and
00:26:05 ◼ ► that time it worked and i kept developing it and then you know the next time i noticed that
00:26:22 ◼ ► it would usually work the second try so my solution to this problem was i filed a bug with
00:26:28 ◼ ► apple just kidding you no i didn't because that would have taken a lot of time and not solve the
00:26:34 ◼ ► problem because how do you file a bug on this instead i built an automatic kicking machine
00:26:44 ◼ ► it automatically kicks it and it usually fixes it 50 of the time it works 100 of the time
00:26:55 ◼ ► the resume after siri like the time delay this is exactly the same type of terrible solution
00:27:00 ◼ ► to a problem just like uh just try to get it probably works the second time yeah but this is
00:27:05 ◼ ► how you have to ship things in ios like yeah because you know what the reality is i could
00:27:09 ◼ ► have filed a bug and it would have taken five times longer it would have gone back and forth
00:27:13 ◼ ► with can you provide a test project not really you know i can't even provide reliable reproduction
00:27:19 ◼ ► steps it happens sometimes and this usually fixes it like that's a terrible bug report and so and
00:27:25 ◼ ► and it's not like they're going to fix it immediately they might fix it this fall but even
00:27:31 ◼ ► like it's may they're like whatever is locked in for like the the wbc release of these os's is
00:27:44 ◼ ► for apple to fix this bug before i ship this because the feature was unshippable with this
00:27:47 ◼ ► because you know if it if one out of five exports just fails that kind of sucks like you can't
00:28:01 ◼ ► so that's the solution i shipped and i would love to not eat it anymore i would love you know i'm
00:28:06 ◼ ► still trying to figure out what caused this i'm trying a few things for the next version that
00:28:10 ◼ ► maybe might avoid it but i still haven't quite nailed it down so that's that's how that if you
00:28:18 ◼ ► ever see the uh the progress circle restart itself from zero you know what happened does it how many
00:28:24 ◼ ► times will it retry as many as it takes so you can in theory be there and watch that progress bar go
00:28:33 ◼ ► the most i've ever seen is twice this is gonna be a new contest who can get the most restarts
00:28:38 ◼ ► and if anybody if anybody can can reliably like have reproduction steps of like what makes it do
00:28:45 ◼ ► that because i still can't figure it out so let me know this is a this is a killer feature i
00:28:50 ◼ ► love that you're linking to all these other um all these other competing apps have you gotten feedback
00:28:56 ◼ ► from like the castro folks which i know you're you're relatively close with the castro folks but
00:28:59 ◼ ► like i guess they're all copying this feature now well but i mean that's reasonable they're all
00:29:04 ◼ ► building their own automated kicking machines no but seriously like were they pleased with it but
00:29:10 ◼ ► uh or or or you know how was the the reception not necessarily from castro i shouldn't single them out
00:29:15 ◼ ► i just know that you talk to those guys a fair bit but like in in a broad sense did you speak to
00:29:21 ◼ ► anyone about this after it released and were they pleased were they kind of like whoa kind of
00:29:24 ◼ ► whatever seems positive good yeah no one seemed to have a problem with it yeah and we're all saying
00:29:31 ◼ ► we like this feature or whatever but the real proof is that if you go on twitter right now
00:29:34 ◼ ► at least in the the circles of our followers uh lots of people are using this feature to share
00:29:39 ◼ ► clips from podcasts which is exactly the whole point of the feature now maybe it's just a fad
00:29:43 ◼ ► and people will stalk but honestly i think we're just gonna continue to see more and more this at
00:29:47 ◼ ► least among overcast users and when every other podcast client copies this feature then we'll see
00:29:51 ◼ ► it more in general which is good because i have i have listened to more uh short clips of podcasts
00:29:58 ◼ ► since you've introduced this feature than like the entire three years before that combined like
00:30:03 ◼ ► they're everywhere um and that brings up another one of my questions like you you limited this to
00:30:07 ◼ ► was it one minute maximum length yes how did you come up with that number i wanted to have a limit
00:30:13 ◼ ► for lots of reasons you know there's um fair use concerns uh attention span concerns with people
00:30:19 ◼ ► like if you post a 10-minute video on twitter no one's gonna sit there and watch all 10 minutes of
00:30:23 ◼ ► it you know it's you know it's it's just not the mode people are in the progress bar is not that
00:30:28 ◼ ► exciting right exactly and there were you know technical concerns also like that that long the
00:30:34 ◼ ► video would take a lot longer to encode and that would just be tedious and so there were there were
00:30:38 ◼ ► a number of concerns with that but that you know the the what made me choose one minute specifically
00:30:48 ◼ ► that might as well like i wanted to have a low limit anyway might as well match that one
00:30:52 ◼ ► yeah my feature request is the minimum length should be shorter because i wanted to post a clip
00:30:56 ◼ ► of someone snorting on a podcast but the snort was not short enough what is the minimum length
00:31:02 ◼ ► one second two second i actually don't know it has to do with the width of the grab handles
00:31:07 ◼ ► uh for the trimming thing because i have i have logic for the grab handles never to overlap each
00:31:12 ◼ ► other or cross each other like and this is currently why you also can't trim a podcast from
00:31:17 ◼ ► zero zero like from the very beginning of it you can't actually clip that you have to like clip
00:31:21 ◼ ► like one second in that's not a content decision that's a implementation detail that i'm hoping to
00:31:26 ◼ ► fix in the next version yeah i guess here the handles are like c-shaped and not just like flappy
00:31:31 ◼ ► the the little the little branches on the c must be pretty long because it's a it's a big gap but
00:31:35 ◼ ► yeah i would i would love to be able to to clip the handle the handle actually has a rectangular
00:31:40 ◼ ► grab area that is about five times wider than the visual handle like it's like two and a half times
00:31:45 ◼ ► on each side roughly it's it's some it's about i think 50 pixels wide total is the is the total
00:31:50 ◼ ► grab area um and and right now those grab areas can't overlap so the closest you can put the
00:31:56 ◼ ► handles together is something like 100 pixels apart yeah it's something like that that could
00:32:01 ◼ ► be tighter that could be better and if you if you really want to go nuts which you probably don't
00:32:04 ◼ ► but it'd be good practice for your future audio editing application one of the features that i
00:32:08 ◼ ► always love i would always love to have in whether it's audio or video or particular audio
00:32:14 ◼ ► when you're trying to do fine adjustments on a trim like i've more or less got the beginning
00:32:20 ◼ ► and the end where i want them but i want to do fine adjustments being able to no longer touch
00:32:25 ◼ ► the primary controls for touching the trim ends but to have a separate set of controls for the
00:32:29 ◼ ► fine adjustments whatever those may be right either whether it's like a tiny bump thing or
00:32:33 ◼ ► whatever because you usually especially with sort of quantized data you can know there's a minimum
00:32:38 ◼ ► step that's reasonable to take for trimming right and you could so you could even have it to be a
00:32:42 ◼ ► digital thing to be you know bump it left left left right right right lots of you know photoshop type
00:32:48 ◼ ► applications or you know mac paint or whatever had a way to like nudge the selection by single pixels
00:32:52 ◼ ► at a time with the arrow keys and stuff like that something like that where you get it pretty close
00:32:56 ◼ ► and then use a separate control with with less less pressure because especially on the touch
00:33:01 ◼ ► screen trying to move your thumb one retina pixel to try to get like a little bit it's just it's very
00:33:07 ◼ ► difficult to do and there's no real zooming on that timeline i know it's not an audio editor it's
00:33:10 ◼ ► just for trimming or whatever but um if you want to go whole hog when you're trying to make just
00:33:15 ◼ ► that perfectly trimmed clip which you should be because a lot of people are getting pretty sloppy
00:33:18 ◼ ► especially with the end wheel there cut it off in the middle of someone's word or something that's
00:33:22 ◼ ► no good you want to you want it to sort of begin and end exactly where you want it to fine controls
00:33:27 ◼ ► would be great that's interesting yeah i mean if you if you use voiceover you can go plus or minus
00:33:31 ◼ ► one second that's how i made it accessible but oh second is huge i'm talking about like one sample
00:33:37 ◼ ► well that's yeah i i mean one thing i could do is which would be technically a pain in the butt but
00:33:42 ◼ ► one thing i could do is like if you hold down on one of the drag handles maybe it would zoom in like
00:33:48 ◼ ► the whole time audio editor features you can do all sorts of fancy things or like when you when
00:33:52 ◼ ► you move the trim handles you constantly rescale to like readjust the scale to say now that you've
00:33:58 ◼ ► you've moved the drag handles now that is 100 and constant but but i think like that's that's too
00:34:03 ◼ ► much probably just you know just being able to do gross adjustment and then fine adjustment
00:34:07 ◼ ► iMovie annoys me because as far as i'm aware iMovie is what i use for all my youtube videos
00:34:12 ◼ ► it doesn't seem to have a great fine adjustment feature luckily on a 27 inch screen you make
00:34:16 ◼ ► things pretty huge and set the zoom to max and get it in where you want it but i always
00:34:20 ◼ ► i'm like just don't make me even with a mouse like don't make me try to move any control on the
00:34:24 ◼ ► screen a single retina pixel or a single regular or single point like this give me a second set
00:34:29 ◼ ► like mechanically speaking there's always like a second set of controls with like a different
00:34:33 ◼ ► sort of gear ratio or mechanical advantage ratio where you can move huge gross movements that move
00:34:38 ◼ ► the actual thing you want to move a tiny amount well it's funny like as i was developing the clip
00:34:43 ◼ ► editor there i had to decide like what is the scale like what's the zoom level and i could make
00:34:48 ◼ ► a dynamic but that would again a lot more work i didn't i didn't want to tackle that yet so you
00:34:53 ◼ ► know what's the zoom level of that and overcast is a portrait app and this is a horizontal timeline
00:34:59 ◼ ► being so it's like you only have the short side of the phone as the width of what you're dealing
00:35:03 ◼ ► with here as i was developing it i actually slowly zoomed out from like i would think that i had a
00:35:11 ◼ ► certain time scale that was right and then as i would try to make clips with it i'd be scrolling
00:35:15 ◼ ► scroll scroll scroll scroll trying to find like where i wanted the end it was too many swipes to
00:35:19 ◼ ► get like a like a 45 second long clip and so i slowly zoomed out and out and out and i basically
00:35:25 ◼ ► solved the problem of imprecision by just adding crossfades to the beginning and end so there's a
00:35:32 ◼ ► very brief i think it's about like 0.2 seconds crossfade on the audio like fade in at the
00:35:38 ◼ ► beginning fade out at the end because that way you can be a little bit sloppy and you don't hear like
00:35:42 ◼ ► an abrupt transition yeah you need that so you don't get the little pops anyway right yeah i mean
00:35:47 ◼ ► i could do like you know a zero crossing thing but that's that's just that's you know more trouble
00:35:51 ◼ ► than it's worth and i don't i don't know that passing that level of precision to core media is
00:35:56 ◼ ► is a great idea to rely on yeah these are all details like it this it totally passes the the
00:36:01 ◼ ► basic test which is people are using it to share clips and the clips are good and enjoyable and
00:36:06 ◼ ► people hear them and under they understand what the person was trying to clip and they're funny
00:36:11 ◼ ► and it's it's working system is working yeah exactly so please everyone share whatever you
00:36:15 ◼ ► want and uh like i don't want this feature you just like have a week of use and then die and it's
00:36:22 ◼ ► the kind of thing like if you are seeing these clips on a regular basis you will then think when
00:36:28 ◼ ► you come across a funny moment oh i can i can post a clip of that but if you never see any of these
00:36:33 ◼ ► clips you might never even go to this menu like you might even you might never even know this
00:36:37 ◼ ► feature is there yeah i would not have known it was there i never go to the share thing why would
00:36:40 ◼ ► i ever even tap that button but i only know about it because i saw the feature on twitter
00:36:45 ◼ ► right and it's like and like you know i could i could like put up a balloon or something in the
00:36:48 ◼ ► app but i don't i hate doing that i don't do that so like ideally this is the kind of feature that
00:36:52 ◼ ► people see around and then they go oh i can do that with overcast too cool and then they would
00:36:59 ◼ ► go and look for it and they should i assume they'd be able to find it pretty easily yeah
00:37:03 ◼ ► i think that's probably the biggest problem is i don't think people will i mean the nerdy people
00:37:06 ◼ ► will know to use the share icon or whatever but it for a feature this good it should be so much
00:37:11 ◼ ► more prominent in the application and i know it's now is not the time to totally redesign your your
00:37:14 ◼ ► ui to highlight this one feature but i think people will have a little bit of difficulty
00:37:19 ◼ ► finding it yeah i i'll play with it and and you know certainly like when i design the next version
00:37:25 ◼ ► of the now playing screen uh i would i will certainly consider like do i want to promote
00:37:30 ◼ ► this further did you just what do you call this we've been calling it clips but isn't it the name
00:37:34 ◼ ► of like apple's app for like making instagram story things you don't have like a trademark name it's
00:37:39 ◼ ► not like uh no i just call it share clip smart clip smart clip it's the clip i don't know oh
00:37:48 ◼ ► there we go it's the smart clip oh my word all right so the feature wow it's getting it all
00:37:55 ◼ ► trying to get it all the margo name slams in one it's like man it took me a minute oh yeah yeah
00:38:02 ◼ ► so i would ask you you know how how the the new uh airplay 2 stuff is going but i already know what
00:38:11 ◼ ► you're going to be doing starting next month and you're going to be using marzipan to make overcast
00:38:17 ◼ ► for the mac oh wait never mind steve trot and smith already did it if you exclude the ability
00:38:22 ◼ ► to play audio but that's a minor feature yeah minor minor issue yeah so tell me about your side
00:38:28 ◼ ► of the story and i mean i mean that in a good way i hope that didn't sound nasty but you know like
00:38:31 ◼ ► what what's going on here uh yeah so basically steve trot and smith has been playing with uh the
00:38:38 ◼ ► the marzipan environment on mohavi for i don't know six months now for a while and he wrote a
00:38:44 ◼ ► couple blog posts and has made some tools one called marzipanify that basically allow you to
00:38:49 ◼ ► take a simulator build which is therefore an intel build of an ios app and if you're willing to
00:38:57 ◼ ► disable system integrity protection and and some other thing about um i think like some kind of
00:39:03 ◼ ► certificate validation on a mac and you run this tool on a simulator build you can make it run
00:39:10 ◼ ► in marzipan on mohavi and so those are two giant ifs but if you're willing to do this that i'm not
00:39:17 ◼ ► willing to do uh but he is and he wrote the tool and he knows a lot more about getting this stuff
00:39:23 ◼ ► to run than i do and so i've been meaning for a while to like send him a simulator build of overcast
00:39:28 ◼ ► like hey can you just see if this runs and see what happens like let me know if i need to do
00:39:31 ◼ ► anything and uh and so i finally got around to doing that um what is a couple days ago now and
00:39:38 ◼ ► we worked through there were a few frameworks that i had to if def out the use of things like
00:39:44 ◼ ► the media toolbox things for doing things like putting the playback controls and title information
00:39:51 ◼ ► in control center like that api is not there in mohavi marzipan and so i had to just like if def
00:39:56 ◼ ► that out for this build um and then there were a couple other like small things that had to if
00:40:00 ◼ ► dev out that just weren't present um things like the male compose sheet there's a lot of frameworks
00:40:05 ◼ ► that aren't there this is a lot of frameworks that just don't make sense on the mac things like that
00:40:09 ◼ ► control center framework and carplay like those frameworks were missing on the mac probably for
00:40:14 ◼ ► good because that doesn't make sense so but like you know my app would launch and try to load them
00:40:19 ◼ ► and it would crash and so we went back and forth i think six builds later after i had a few more
00:40:25 ◼ ► things i think he got it running and that was it and it was great and and it you know it didn't take
00:40:30 ◼ ► a lot really like which was promising partly i i kind of i kind of won here in part because i
00:40:38 ◼ ► am such a jerk and don't ever use anyone else's code in my app like i have my app contains almost
00:40:45 ◼ ► entirely my code and the little bits of that aren't mine are very simple open source things
00:40:49 ◼ ► that i can look at the source for anything that i can that i need to change i can change and i and
00:40:54 ◼ ► it isn't loading a whole bunch of crap you know to get there and so i was i was able to fairly easily
00:40:59 ◼ ► give him a version of the app that would run in in mohavi under the marzipan thing when it's hacked
00:41:06 ◼ ► in this way um so i was very happy about that and it's really cool and you know it isn't mac like
00:41:11 ◼ ► at all uh but that's because like he's written blog posts about like they have apis you can
00:41:17 ◼ ► generate to do things like add toolbars like add mac toolbars add mac split views add you know menu
00:41:23 ◼ ► bar stuff apple script stuff touch bar integration like the the the basics of all this stuff are all
00:41:29 ◼ ► there but he doesn't have my source code so he couldn't add those things and i don't i don't
00:41:33 ◼ ► want to take the time to do it yet because i assume all that stuff is going to be more mature
00:41:41 ◼ ► i'm really excited about the possibility of making this a mac app and i'm really happy that it mostly
00:41:46 ◼ ► works as is like it's not going to require massive changes one change it probably is going to require
00:41:51 ◼ ► though is airplay 2 and that's as you mentioned it it works in the sense that the ui works uh
00:41:59 ◼ ► it does not however play audio which for a podcast app is not great already established overcast is
00:42:06 ◼ ► all about video now well that feature works fine you can watch the progress bar move from left to
00:42:11 ◼ ► right in silence no no the the audio in the clip preview editor that works because that doesn't
00:42:19 ◼ ► use my audio stack the audio playback in the preview editor for clips uh is just using av
00:42:25 ◼ ► player that works fine under marzapam Mojave but my core audio based audio engine does not
00:42:33 ◼ ► and actually i i sent him my airplay 2 test harness app which is like a very basic app that's running
00:42:39 ◼ ► my very alpha airplay 2 engine just to see like does this play audio and it did so well good that
00:42:46 ◼ ► that is moving up my my priority of like i should probably switch to this sooner rather than later
00:42:50 ◼ ► so i'm gonna finish that soon i think uh that's probably the next major thing i tackle well no i
00:42:56 ◼ ► i don't think we need really need to spend much more time on this i just think it's extremely cool
00:43:04 ◼ ► source code access and even when he decided to make himself a three-column version of the app
00:43:10 ◼ ► that was without source code access which is just i if you follow steve john smith this won't surprise
00:43:16 ◼ ► you and shouldn't have surprised me and yet i found it somewhat surprising that he could go in there
00:43:20 ◼ ► and swizzle the snot out of your app in order to get a three-column version out of thin air which
00:43:26 ◼ ► is just incredible marco is doing the actual marzipan version of overcast writing source code
00:43:31 ◼ ► like a chump i know right you're thinking of steve draughton smith who added a third column
00:43:36 ◼ ► just by shifting selectors around whatever the hell he's doing in there yeah in like an hour
00:43:41 ◼ ► too like it took him like no time like because i actually i do want to go to a three-pane layout
00:43:46 ◼ ► on ipads and max uh because it makes total sense like you know i have i already have three level
00:43:51 ◼ ► navigation it makes complete sense like you know the leftmost pane would be the root screen it'd
00:43:55 ◼ ► be like you know playlist podcasts and then you know the middle pane would be the currently selected
00:43:59 ◼ ► playlist or podcast and the right pane would be now playing like that make that's of course what
00:44:03 ◼ ► i'm going to do and i think modern ipads are now wide enough that i can do it there too uh so that's
00:44:08 ◼ ► great so i intend to do that but like for me to do it's gonna take me like a week to get all that
00:44:14 ◼ ► worked out like even with my current structure and he did it like an hour with no code it is utterly
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00:46:29 ◼ ► you an iphone then you could use mdm in order to maintain that iphone and make sure that only the
00:46:35 ◼ ► right apps are being used and that you knew where the iphone was physically on the planet and so on
00:46:40 ◼ ► and so forth a lot of these companies that were doing the the kind of stalker vision for your kids
00:46:46 ◼ ► so you could see exactly what they're doing where they are and so on and so forth we're using mdm
00:46:50 ◼ ► and apple whether or not they did a good job of explaining it seems to have come to the opinion
00:46:57 ◼ ► that using mdm for some if not all of these things isn't really what it's meant for and there's some
00:47:04 ◼ ► amount of debate how they message this to these companies but one way or another they told the
00:47:10 ◼ ► companies hey you're either not going to be able to do this anymore and thus your company will
00:47:15 ◼ ► maybe go away or you really need to rethink the mechanism by which you're doing this which may
00:47:20 ◼ ► also make your company go away but we're not cool with the way this works right now and so this new
00:47:24 ◼ ► york times piece which i really didn't care for was basically a bunch of kvetching and moaning
00:47:29 ◼ ► from these companies about why apple is big and unfair and terrible and there are a lot of reasons
00:47:36 ◼ ► why apple can be big and unfair and terrible but this one this didn't strike me as that unreasonable
00:47:42 ◼ ► and the response from apple was basically look it's a privacy thing and this isn't how it was
00:47:47 ◼ ► supposed to be used and we're not comfortable with this so we're not going to allow it anymore
00:47:53 ◼ ► well i think apple did make a bunch of mistakes here but first of all i can start with this new
00:47:56 ◼ ► york times article which sort of kicked this off the angle and the article the the sort of
00:48:02 ◼ ► sensational angle and the the story put forward by the software developers affected by this is like
00:48:08 ◼ ► well isn't it convenient apple comes out with its own screen time feature for dealing with restrictions
00:48:14 ◼ ► on uh you know family members or children's phones and stuff and all of a sudden it doesn't want to
00:48:19 ◼ ► let us the the third-party developers who have been offering the same functionality doesn't want
00:48:23 ◼ ► to let us sell our applications anymore isn't it nefarious and evil uh apple once apple enters the
00:48:29 ◼ ► market they want to kick everybody else out um and then apple had like this pr thing that was partially
00:48:34 ◼ ► quoted in the new york times article saying that uh you know apple treats uh third-party applications
00:48:40 ◼ ► the same as it treats its own yada yada which is not true in any way and is like the worst thing
00:48:45 ◼ ► the worst thing that apple could have you know the one quote they could have pulled is the one that
00:48:48 ◼ ► you know those in the know no it's not true but that's not the issue the whole point is the angle
00:48:57 ◼ ► interests at heart um but then here are the mistakes that i feel like apple made in in this
00:49:03 ◼ ► and some of them are understandable and nobody's perfect but like this there are mistakes that made
00:49:09 ◼ ► the situation more for authenticity the first one i feel like is letting third-party developers
00:49:14 ◼ ► distribute parental control applications using mdm right because mdm yeah in case you described it
00:49:20 ◼ ► well it's like for companies who let their employees have iphones who want to control what
00:49:25 ◼ ► those employees put on their iphones and want to be able to remote wipe them and stop people from
00:49:28 ◼ ► using applications and like any kind of thing where if you're in a big company and they give
00:49:33 ◼ ► you computer hardware to use they have some degree of terrible evil control over it because that's how
00:49:39 ◼ ► it works like it's the company's phone it's not your phone it's the company's laptop it's not your
00:49:43 ◼ ► laptop you're just using it um and mdm gives the company control of your laptop the mdm scenario
00:49:51 ◼ ► for parental controls like the reason they use them is because it is literally the only way
00:49:56 ◼ ► without jailbreaking to provide this functionality on ios devices but in in this scenario in the
00:50:04 ◼ ► company scenario the company is i don't know what i don't know the right terminology of this so the
00:50:08 ◼ ► company is that is the thing that sort of is controlling the mdm thing and the employee has
00:50:12 ◼ ► the phone right there's just two parties it's the company and and the employee well actually i
00:50:17 ◼ ► suppose there's the vendor of the other thing uses mdm either way when a parent buys this application
00:50:23 ◼ ► and uses it to control their children's phone and i may be wrong about this but my impression is that
00:50:29 ◼ ► yes the parent has the ability to control the control the child's phone but also the vendor
00:50:34 ◼ ► of the mdm application effectively has some control in this chain as well because they are
00:50:40 ◼ ► the creators of the application i may be wrong about that but no that's correct they they have
00:50:44 ◼ ► full control yeah so so it's like it's a three-party scenario instead of two and that third party is
00:50:50 ◼ ► one that that a parent downloading this application might not realize is in the mix here a company
00:50:56 ◼ ► surely knows that it is the one controlling thing yada yada like but the parent might think i'm just
00:51:01 ◼ ► controlling my kid's phone but the company that makes this software doesn't have any untoward
00:51:06 ◼ ► access to my kid's phone and they do it's just not the right tool for the job and it's on apple
00:51:17 ◼ ► understand where apples come from they're like well there is no other way to do this and this
00:51:20 ◼ ► is functionality people want and we don't have a solution for it so why shouldn't we let third
00:51:24 ◼ ► parties do this so while we work on screen time or while we figure what we're going to do
00:51:28 ◼ ► let's just allow these third-party applications to go on this to go with mdm in hindsight that was
00:51:34 ◼ ► a mistake because eventually when apple comes out with a similar feature and this is the kernel of
00:51:39 ◼ ► truth in the story in the new york times when apple comes up with a similar feature they'd
00:51:42 ◼ ► be like all right well finally we have screen time now we can get rid of all those applications that
00:51:48 ◼ ► use mdm and say please stop doing that because it's really not great and it's it's putting parents in
00:51:53 ◼ ► a situation where they might not realize but they're providing third parties with access to
00:51:57 ◼ ► their phones that is not great and like it's and i know you're a good company but really this is not
00:52:02 ◼ ► what mdm is for mdm is for you know companies and their employees so it's not for parents and their
00:52:06 ◼ ► kids so it's for the parental situation you screen time so on and so forth that is a bad situation
00:52:12 ◼ ► though because there remains no other way to provide this functionality in a third-party app
00:52:16 ◼ ► this extent of the functionality in third-party app than using mdm so if apple says uh please
00:52:22 ◼ ► company that's been in business for a long time and has lots of customers stop using mdm in your
00:52:26 ◼ ► app and it's like well you're basically telling us to stop selling our app because there is no
00:52:30 ◼ ► other way for us to do what we do on our app without using mdm so and how did apple get into
00:52:36 ◼ ► the situation they allowed these developers to sell their apps using mdm for a long time and be
00:52:41 ◼ ► successful and now they're saying you have to stop basically it's a product killing decision
00:52:45 ◼ ► you know and the third mistake is when apple has to communicate this like i don't i don't know the
00:52:53 ◼ ► right way to communicate this because it's a hard conversation to have to call the developer and say
00:52:58 ◼ ► yeah i know you've been selling this application for a long time and are very successful with it
00:53:02 ◼ ► but basically you need to stop selling it because we're not going to let you use mdm anymore and
00:53:08 ◼ ► there's no other way for you to provide this functionality so basically your product is dead
00:53:12 ◼ ► sorry about that our bad and by the way and by the way we have a screen say sorry yeah screen
00:53:19 ◼ ► time is available but it's not as full featured as your application but it's built into the us and we
00:53:23 ◼ ► control it and you know like that that is effectively what is happening to a lot of these
00:53:29 ◼ ► people who make products like this but there's no good way to communicate that it's you're going to
00:53:36 ◼ ► be sad either way but perhaps one of the worst ways to communicate that is the passive-aggressive
00:53:41 ◼ ► app store rejection way which is basically to just send terse responses that say something very sort
00:53:46 ◼ ► of clinical that you know your use of api blah blah is disallowed please remove the use of this
00:53:52 ◼ ► application and resubmit something like that that doesn't like it just seems like it was from a
00:53:56 ◼ ► machine that says mdm is not allowed doesn't acknowledge that it was allowed before it doesn't
00:54:00 ◼ ► tell you that apple understands what this means for your application right and this is this true
00:54:05 ◼ ► of all the app store frustrations you'll do a thing in an app for years and years that apple
00:54:09 ◼ ► thinks is fine then you'll do a bug fix update and they'll reject your application for a feature
00:54:13 ◼ ► that's been there for a year and with the thing that says this application does x please remove
00:54:17 ◼ ► x and resubmit with no acknowledgement like but i've been doing x for years you've approved 100
00:54:22 ◼ ► versions that do x communicate to me as a human to tell me what's going on you're just like
00:54:27 ◼ ► mechanical rejections right maybe that's the the quote-unquote right way to communicate from a
00:54:32 ◼ ► legal perspective because it opens you up to less liability because it doesn't make you but it's it's
00:54:35 ◼ ► not the human way to communicate that and again maybe there's no right way maybe the wrong approach
00:54:40 ◼ ► would try to be human because if you're if you do that you're opening yourself up to legal
00:54:44 ◼ ► liability or who knows i don't i don't know what goes into the thing behind this and it's a
00:54:48 ◼ ► difficult conversation to have but the difficult conversation stems from earlier decisions that
00:54:52 ◼ ► were apple's decisions to make that i think they made the wrong call on so they allowed these stores
00:54:57 ◼ ► these things to be in the store for a long time then when it came time to essentially kill a bunch
00:55:01 ◼ ► of products it seems like at least in the few cases of people complaining it was communicated
00:55:05 ◼ ► in the most terse and sort of impersonal way possible and it just makes everybody feel bad
00:55:11 ◼ ► right so there is there is fault to go around here but in the end apple is i think apple is doing the
00:55:17 ◼ ► right thing mdm shouldn't be isn't the right tool for parents to do that and there is no other better
00:55:22 ◼ ► api and yes i understand these apps are potentially better and more full featured than screen time and
00:55:28 ◼ ► i know it looks like apple is killing these things with screen time but they kind of are and that's
00:55:31 ◼ ► just part of software like if you implement if you are a third party that implements a feature that
00:55:37 ◼ ► rightfully should be part of the os don't be surprised when eventually it does become part
00:55:41 ◼ ► of the os and the app store era or in the not the app store but in the sort of the privacy focused
00:55:47 ◼ ► security focused error of today don't be surprised also that not only does it get built into the os
00:55:53 ◼ ► but that you are no longer allowed to use whatever weird side door you were using before because this
00:55:58 ◼ ► is a security concern so i feel bad for these companies and uh i also kind of feel bad for apple
00:56:05 ◼ ► but there's a little bit of uh enough blame to go around what i don't believe is that this is some
00:56:10 ◼ ► nefarious you know scheme to say haha finally we'll destroy all those companies with our
00:56:14 ◼ ► amazing screen time that we bundle for free with our os it's right this is not a a massive
00:56:21 ◼ ► money-making scheme this is part of apple security focus uh and it stems from an earlier mistake an
00:56:28 ◼ ► earlier mistake by the way where apple is being if you want to look at it more magnanimous than
00:56:32 ◼ ► they should be basically saying we don't have a solution to this why shouldn't we let third parties
00:56:36 ◼ ► use mdm the answer is because someday you're gonna have to stop them and then everyone's gonna be sad
00:56:40 ◼ ► but they made a bunch of money in the meantime that they wouldn't have made if apple had said
00:56:44 ◼ ► you know what we don't have the ability to provide this functionality and we're not gonna let third
00:56:49 ◼ ► parties provide it with mdm ever and so we'll just all have to wait for ios 12 or whatever screen time
00:56:54 ◼ ► came in so tough situation but uh apple is not being unnecessarily evil they're all just uh
00:57:04 ◼ ► reaping what they saw from past mistakes i feel like this is an extension of what we went through
00:57:10 ◼ ► a few months ago or maybe even less than that with the apps that allowed you to sideload stuff
00:57:16 ◼ ► so there was like you know getting enterprise certificates you mean mm-hmm i feel like the
00:57:22 ◼ ► enterprise cert thing was far worse it was both more nefarious on on the vendor so not apple but
00:57:29 ◼ ► these other people it was it was pretty clearly nefarious on their part and clearly pretty clearly
00:57:34 ◼ ► not in the spirit of what enterprise search are for this i do think is more gray but i don't think
00:57:40 ◼ ► it's that dissimilar in ideas that hey you're taking a technology that we really want to use
00:57:46 ◼ ► for a b and c and you're using it for i was going to say xyz but maybe that's a bit aggressive but
00:57:51 ◼ ► you're using it for i don't know l and m and that's not good and this analogy is really falling apart
00:57:55 ◼ ► but anyway the point is the point is that it's using this mdm technology in a way that it's
00:58:01 ◼ ► really not meant for and and just like john said like if he had burned for that well whose fault is
00:58:06 ◼ ► that really yeah i i mostly agree with john and a little bit from casey except i think that
00:58:12 ◼ ► i would be surprised if the development of screen time had anything at all to do with this i think
00:58:21 ◼ ► it's purely coincidental that it happened to be developed during this because yeah apple has been
00:58:25 ◼ ► cracking down on things like enterprise distribution abuse things like vpn apps that maybe shouldn't be
00:58:32 ◼ ► like that are using vpns to do things that are not really what vpns are for uh apps that are you know
00:58:39 ◼ ► using using profiles like mdm to do things like this has been a crackdown that's been going on
00:58:43 ◼ ► for like a year or something like that like it's been like over over a while and i think one thing
00:58:48 ◼ ► that became apparent i think we've seen signs of this here and there but i think one thing that
00:58:52 ◼ ► became apparent during the enterprise certificate kerfuffle from a few months back is that it
00:58:58 ◼ ► doesn't seem like apple has a great idea at like decision-making levels of power how some of this
00:59:07 ◼ ► stuff is being abused like it just it kind of seems like the app store is so big and the ecosystem is
00:59:13 ◼ ► so big that sometimes stuff gets through and you don't have a super powerful person in the company
00:59:19 ◼ ► making like a policy decision on every one of these things because it's just too big to keep up with
00:59:24 ◼ ► i get the feeling like i think what happens is at some point something is brought to the attention
00:59:30 ◼ ► of the higher ups whether it's through the press or through you know internal channels whatever it is
00:59:35 ◼ ► and then decisions can be made and then they're executed for you know down below again at the
00:59:41 ◼ ► lower level of the company where more people are that's kind of the impression i get and so
00:59:45 ◼ ► whenever there's like an app store policy change i think it's something like that where like
00:59:49 ◼ ► somebody in the press or somewhere like calls out hey these apps are doing this thing you know why
00:59:56 ◼ ► are they allowed to do that and then someone who matters notices and they say hey that's wrong they
01:00:02 ◼ ► shouldn't be allowed to do that and they go tell app review hey get rid of these things or you know
01:00:06 ◼ ► enforce this policy or change this policy that's what i think happens and it's a big company it's
01:00:12 ◼ ► a really big company the lower level people are probably not empowered to be incredibly
01:00:17 ◼ ► communicative and verbose with the outside world so when you know if the lower level people get
01:00:22 ◼ ► a directive like hey this app is doing this thing that we actually don't want to permit
01:00:27 ◼ ► all they can probably tell the developer is you are being rejected for rule 2.4 point whatever
01:00:33 ◼ ► you know it's like they can only give those robotic responses probably because of that's
01:00:36 ◼ ► you know policy and as john said maybe legal concerns and everything but what we see from
01:00:42 ◼ ► the outside when this happens is you have an app in the store like if you're a developer you have
01:00:48 ◼ ► an app in the store it's fine because it gets updated it goes to that review every couple of
01:00:52 ◼ ► weeks when you change something it's fine until it's not and all you're getting from apple is the
01:00:57 ◼ ► is this kind of like stonewall response of either no reason given or a very robotic minimal reason
01:01:03 ◼ ► given it's not really helpful and not really explaining like why was this okay last month
01:01:07 ◼ ► and now it's not so it makes sense on both sides like i can totally see i can understand why
01:01:14 ◼ ► apple's side of it is the way it is but the developer side of it like what we see on the
01:01:22 ◼ ► outside in this kind of situation is terrible and you might occasionally like maybe if you're lucky
01:01:28 ◼ ► like when when you're on the side of a rule change or reinterpretation if you're lucky after a while
01:01:34 ◼ ► you might get a phone call which i've always termed the agent smith phone calls because you
01:01:39 ◼ ► get a phone call from like the apple main switchboard number so you can't call them back
01:01:43 ◼ ► you are not given a name usually if ever you are given the bad news from this person who usually
01:01:50 ◼ ► the conversation is usually quite civil but they will they will then tell you like the reason
01:01:56 ◼ ► basically during those phone calls but of course because it's a phone call you don't have a solid
01:02:00 ◼ ► record of it really you can't really quote them very easily because it's a phone call you get
01:02:04 ◼ ► this random phone call from apple that's like a nice but terse person telling you really what you
01:02:08 ◼ ► can't do and then that's it and you have no way to ever reach them again i actually i heard a rumor
01:02:13 ◼ ► a while back that all of those phone calls were made by this one guy who was like the nicest guy
01:02:20 ◼ ► in the world but was also ex-military and just had like there's an article about that i think
01:02:25 ◼ ► oh really yeah i think it was yeah i heard he just he just had like you know like the like willpower
01:02:29 ◼ ► of stone and he could just make these calls and get through them with people like probably giving
01:02:33 ◼ ► them all sorts of crap on the other on the other end he could just get through them and apparently
01:02:36 ◼ ► he was super nice and apparently he he stopped doing that job like last year or something like
01:02:41 ◼ ► that anyway i don't know if that's true but i thought that was kind of funny that like it's
01:02:44 ◼ ► like this one super nice guy doing all this anyway you know apple has this problem of like
01:02:57 ◼ ► apple changes something right from under us and we're getting terrible to know communication on it
01:03:02 ◼ ► and we seem to have seemed to be powerless both sides of it suck i think the the solution here
01:03:08 ◼ ► you know it's never going to be problem free but apple has to get way better at the communication
01:03:15 ◼ ► when this kind of thing happens they are just horrendous at it i think their motivations here
01:03:20 ◼ ► were fine like i don't i don't think they were badly motivated again i don't i don't think this
01:03:25 ◼ ► had anything to do with screen time at all agreed i don't think anybody at apple at like decision
01:03:29 ◼ ► making high up levels knew about these apps using mdm for this purpose a year ago and said we're
01:03:35 ◼ ► going to wait till we long screen time and then kick them out like i seriously doubt that i think
01:03:39 ◼ ► that's plausible and i'll tell you why um the only reason apple made screen time is because they think
01:03:44 ◼ ► it's a feature that users want that there is something that people want to do with their
01:03:48 ◼ ► phones that are not currently able to do we should make a feature that does that it's not like they
01:03:51 ◼ ► frivolously add features to ios like it's filling a user need and whoever was on the team to to
01:03:57 ◼ ► fulfill this need to say let's make let's add this feature to ios uh you have to figure out okay what
01:04:04 ◼ ► uh what should this feature do uh what what you know what what features should it have what
01:04:09 ◼ ► functionality should have surely you look at the space and you say well are there any other
01:04:14 ◼ ► applications out there that already do something similar in your exploration of the space that's
01:04:18 ◼ ► when you discover hey there's 75 applications that do this with millions of downloads and they all use
01:04:23 ◼ ► mdm to do it at that point i feel like you now have the knowledge maybe it's still at the high
01:04:28 ◼ ► enough level the company like oh it's a big company that's two different divisions right i'm
01:04:32 ◼ ► saying those people have the knowledge that there's a bunch of apps out there that are using mdm and i
01:04:37 ◼ ► feel like at that high enough level team coming up with a feature that's that's on the slate for
01:04:41 ◼ ► potentially being added to ios 12 or whatever at that level i feel like that that's enough to
01:04:47 ◼ ► disseminate the information to the to the the the company at large at the very top and i think at
01:04:52 ◼ ► that point you have the discussion is like well we're exploring this feature we looked at the
01:04:56 ◼ ► space we think we're gonna we think we're gonna add you know these are the bullet points we're
01:04:59 ◼ ► gonna have these are the you know the the benefits and the you know functionality we're gonna have
01:05:04 ◼ ► um and also uh we probably also think probably that uh you know that these apps are using mdm
01:05:11 ◼ ► shouldn't do it but let's not kill those apps yet let's wait until we get screen time out the door
01:05:15 ◼ ► because the next consideration is that our users are you know this need that we think our users
01:05:20 ◼ ► have they're currently getting it filled by third parties so let them continue to have the third
01:05:25 ◼ ► party apps until we have some semblance of a replacement then deliver the bad news i'm not
01:05:30 ◼ ► saying this is what happened i'm saying it's a plausible scenario where apple what apple is
01:05:34 ◼ ► trying to do is provide a feature to its users in the safest way possible and also not screw all of
01:05:39 ◼ ► its users remember it's like what apple uh users developers the three-level hierarchy of apple's
01:05:44 ◼ ► priorities right there's way more users than developers so the calculus has to be not like
01:05:50 ◼ ► oh let's you know let's sneakily wait until screen times out and screw the developers it's let's not
01:05:54 ◼ ► screw our millions of users because our millions of users want this functionality so until we
01:05:58 ◼ ► deliver screen time let's just not do anything to that thing but put it on the agenda for some point
01:06:03 ◼ ► after screen time ships to eventually get those mdm apps out of there like i think that is a plausible
01:06:08 ◼ ► scenario because i think there's no way apple implemented this feature without looking at what
01:06:12 ◼ ► what exists in the space at a high enough level that the company might know and again those are
01:06:16 ◼ ► i'm describing basically kind motivations to everything involved that apple is looking at
01:06:21 ◼ ► trying to find features that are useful to its users that's thinking of its users who are using
01:06:25 ◼ ► the third-party apps and then in third place unfortunately other developers who it's probably
01:06:30 ◼ ► not thinking of that much but again the user priority wins we don't want a parent putting an
01:06:34 ◼ ► app on their kid's phone that unwittingly gives control to a to the third-party developer without
01:06:39 ◼ ► the parent understanding exactly what they've just given away when i first read the story uh i pretty
01:06:45 ◼ ► much immediately sided with apple in my head with the the decision side of it like you know the
01:06:50 ◼ ► communication side i think it was not great but the decision side of it makes total sense to me
01:06:55 ◼ ► because like as an ios developer i didn't even know these apps existed and if somebody would
01:06:59 ◼ ► have asked me hey i have an idea for an app it's a parental control app that limits how many you know
01:07:04 ◼ ► how long you can run apps on your phone uh can i make this i would have said no it's not possible
01:07:09 ◼ ► any ios developer would know like there is no way for apps on your phone to look around in your phone
01:07:16 ◼ ► and see what other apps are running or to have any control over that like most developers would
01:07:21 ◼ ► assume that's not possible and if somebody would if somebody in like in the back of the room and
01:07:26 ◼ ► raise their hand be like hey what if we install an mdm profile on every user's device and and we use
01:07:33 ◼ ► that to control these any experienced ios developer be like well they're never going to allow that
01:07:37 ◼ ► that's definitely going to be against app store policy like i think it's it's like developer it's
01:07:43 ◼ ► it's experienced ios developer common sense that this kind of thing would probably not be allowed
01:07:49 ◼ ► because that is clearly not what mdm is for similar thing with vpns like there's a lot of
01:07:56 ◼ ► apps that were using vpns to do certain things and apple cracked down on them over like the last year
01:08:01 ◼ ► or so as well because that's a similar kind of tool where it's like you're you're taking this
01:08:06 ◼ ► tool that is intended for a relatively specific type of use and if you make a vpn like like onavo
01:08:13 ◼ ► like facebook's onavo thing that has pretty horrible privacy implications that most of its
01:08:19 ◼ ► users are probably not really going to be aware of and maybe are installing for other reasons
01:08:23 ◼ ► uh you know a vpn is is not a great tool to use for that job or to be permitted to be used that way
01:08:29 ◼ ► because that's not really what it's for and most most users don't realize all the power it gives
01:08:34 ◼ ► the other party and things like that and so like for the same reasons that mdm profiles are i think
01:08:42 ◼ ► common sense not like not allowed to be used in ways like this vpns also developer common sense
01:08:47 ◼ ► are you know shouldn't be allowed to be doing this kind of stuff and and i think apple's policy on
01:08:51 ◼ ► both of those things has been slowly tightening but not outside of the realm of common sense like
01:08:57 ◼ ► clearly they are responding to the problems that we've seen over the app store like in recent years
01:09:03 ◼ ► of like wow this large-scale thing is using this api in a way that we think is creepy you know see
01:09:08 ◼ ► also enterprise certificate abuse stuff like that apple's finding ways that that are that are being
01:09:14 ◼ ► abused like this and they're closing those loopholes and i don't think that's the wrong
01:09:19 ◼ ► decision the only failures are that the loopholes were allowed to be exploited in the first place
01:09:24 ◼ ► and that they and the policy change was so badly communicated almost every time we are sponsored
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01:11:24 ◼ ► all right let's do some ask atp starting with keegan sands who writes what naming convention
01:11:32 ◼ ► do you use for directories and files on your mac camel case hyphen delimiter underscore delimiter
01:11:37 ◼ ► etc underscores are good for many things i'd just like to put that out there for me i uh i
01:11:43 ◼ ► generally just use like the windows 95 oh my god i can put spaces and capitals and whatever i want
01:11:50 ◼ ► my file name i will do that thank you very much and so that's what i do i use spaces i don't have
01:11:56 ◼ ► any particularly strong feelings about camel or pascal case or anything else i name things in the
01:12:02 ◼ ► most appropriate way i see possible because that's what the file system enables me to do i'm going to
01:12:09 ◼ ► assume that marco is slightly more particular than me so let me ask you first um anything that's like
01:12:16 ◼ ► like me like you like user facing i just use spaces and proper capitalization and it's fine
01:12:24 ◼ ► exactly um i i will use all lowercase no spaces using hyphens between words for things like
01:12:32 ◼ ► developer directories so things like my my git checkouts of like i have like you know overcast
01:12:39 ◼ ► dash web and it's all lowercase that's that's the git checkout for it so it's so like in the in the
01:12:43 ◼ ► path that will be used by developer stuff there's no spaces just because just in case something
01:12:50 ◼ ► weird happens i don't want to deal with it right so um and just for some reason and like i do the
01:12:55 ◼ ► same thing on my servers like the servers all have like lowercase with dashes um as as the delimiters
01:13:01 ◼ ► and just you know because it's easier on linux to do things that way um but yeah anything like
01:13:06 ◼ ► documents for myself that are just like in my home documents directory or anything that or stuff on
01:13:10 ◼ ► my desktop that's all just with spaces and capital letters and stuff it's fine yeah i think shell
01:13:15 ◼ ► scripts are another good example of like all lowercase and hyphens yep me too yep so that
01:13:20 ◼ ► that's there are occasions that that'll be more particular but not usually all right john we only
01:13:26 ◼ ► have but so much time but please tell me your rules for files file file naming on your file
01:13:31 ◼ ► system well more than since more than a decade before windows 95 i was naming my files in sane
01:13:36 ◼ ► ways because that's what you can do on a mac and by the way i was naming them whatever i wanted to
01:13:40 ◼ ► name them literally whatever one of the name there was no part of the file name that i was required
01:13:45 ◼ ► to put any sort of secret code in there the operating system would then interpret and try
01:13:48 ◼ ► to take action based on i could literally what about the colon i could literally name my files
01:13:52 ◼ ► whatever i wanted no that that's a forbidden character but there was no part that if you
01:13:56 ◼ ► wrote it the operating system would look at that part of the file name and interpret it in a weird
01:13:59 ◼ ► ass way that can break things okay you are so i've never met a human being that is more angry about
01:14:06 ◼ ► extensions than you are so angry forever anyway uh and and how did i choose how did i actually choose
01:14:11 ◼ ► to name them it's mostly title case like you know my obsession with title case it's mostly title case
01:14:16 ◼ ► um you don't say yeah because they were like the titles of folders and applications were named
01:14:20 ◼ ► it essentially in title case since the beginning of the mac so that's the way you know everything's
01:14:24 ◼ ► staying that way uh that said you know so the mac uh it now has unix to uh great taste it tastes
01:14:30 ◼ ► great together uh i do sort of code switching uh to pull a word to code switch slightly here
01:14:37 ◼ ► code switching when i'm doing work uh if i am working let's say in a programming language
01:14:42 ◼ ► that itself has some kind of strong cultural convention for what you name your source files
01:14:46 ◼ ► or what you name your directories or sometimes a mandated convention like pearl where the
01:14:51 ◼ ► package name corresponds to a directory path that has to exactly match the package name and the
01:14:55 ◼ ► language has an informal convention for how packages should be named i totally use those
01:15:00 ◼ ► conventions right sometimes it's hard to tell like if you asked a random person in the street what is
01:15:05 ◼ ► nodes uh naming convention for javascript files some person might say uh hyphen separating words
01:15:11 ◼ ► all lowercase some person might say underscores in the end it doesn't really matter that much
01:15:15 ◼ ► and it's a cultural thing but certainly no one would say that the convention for uh node js is
01:15:20 ◼ ► to generally do title cases with spaces between words that's not the convention you can do it
01:15:25 ◼ ► but it's not the convention so i do code switch um my personal preference if i don't think i would
01:15:32 ◼ ► say in the absence of any other overriding culture or concern for a programming language or environment
01:15:36 ◼ ► what would i choose but there is no context like that like every in every context whether it's
01:15:41 ◼ ► shell or pearl or c or whatever there's some kind of cultural surrounding influence to suggest how
01:15:48 ◼ ► you might consider naming your files and i generally just tend to stick with whatever the
01:15:52 ◼ ► dominant culture is within the thing which means that on my mac there are a bunch of files and
01:15:56 ◼ ► folders and everything that look you know that are named the way i want them to be named especially
01:16:00 ◼ ► with extensions hidden um but then there are whole directory trees that are in the sort of culture
01:16:06 ◼ ► and parlance of whatever programming language or environment they're in patrick writes with
01:16:11 ◼ ► apple willing to spend big money on controlling important pieces of tech why are they paying so
01:16:15 ◼ ► much for aws instead of making their own cloud it's an interesting question but i i don't think
01:16:21 ◼ ► apple has any interest in managing something that like their their cloud stuff i i just i mean they
01:16:29 ◼ ► have that huge data center in north carolina which is used for something uh but by and large i just
01:16:35 ◼ ► don't think that them doing doing an aws clone or an aws alike really how does that help the user
01:16:44 ◼ ► because aws seems by and large to be pretty good at what it does i don't know john why am i being
01:16:50 ◼ ► wrong why am i wrong with this used to be a much less interesting question if you'd ask the same
01:16:53 ◼ ► question a couple decades ago would it be like well duh like there are things that apple does
01:16:59 ◼ ► that are part of its core company core competency and value proposition and there are things that
01:17:03 ◼ ► it asks another company to do right it doesn't uh it doesn't decide to run its own construction
01:17:08 ◼ ► company to build its buildings i you know and the current apple every example i can think of is like
01:17:12 ◼ ► actually a much more plausible you might think but let's say decades ago like it doesn't you know
01:17:16 ◼ ► like there are certain things johnny i've builds the bulldozer yeah they're not like reinvents
01:17:21 ◼ ► concrete right like it doesn't it doesn't make the machines that make its computers like it doesn't
01:17:25 ◼ ► you know it doesn't uh make the bulldozers that mine for the chemicals that go into it's like
01:17:29 ◼ ► that's not what the core competency of the company is it's like what is what should we put our effort
01:17:34 ◼ ► and money behind um uh outsource things that are not part of your value proposition to a company
01:17:40 ◼ ► that does them exclusively and does them better uh that's that's the way you do things um and
01:17:46 ◼ ► practically speaking both decades ago and today i'm gonna say everybody uses aws but the public
01:17:52 ◼ ► cloud writ large is extremely popular uh if you don't work for a company that does things online
01:17:59 ◼ ► perhaps you don't realize how much of all the cool products you use are powered by aws or to a lesser
01:18:05 ◼ ► extent azure or google cloud uh the companies don't advertise that fact uh but that's how the
01:18:12 ◼ ► world works today and it works that way like why does netflix use aws why don't they run all their
01:18:17 ◼ ► own data centers netflix's core competency is these days making original content and doing
01:18:22 ◼ ► content deals and delivering you uh video it is not writing cloud infrastructure to run servers
01:18:28 ◼ ► and stuff right that is not you know like that's that's not where they want to be spending their
01:18:37 ◼ ► it's a more difficult question because there are very few companies that should be trying to run
01:18:45 ◼ ► their own cloud but arguably apple might be one of them that should at least be considering it
01:18:51 ◼ ► amazon runs its own cloud it's called aws google runs its own cloud microsoft runs its own cloud
01:18:57 ◼ ► apple is kind of in that camp and services are a big part of apple things and yada yada yada
01:19:01 ◼ ► you can still make a very strong argument that apple should absolutely not be running its own
01:19:05 ◼ ► cloud and they should outsource this but some of its competitors actually do derive advantage from
01:19:12 ◼ ► running their own clouds google certainly does their entire business was founded on the fact
01:19:16 ◼ ► that they would run their own data centers and design their own hardware and draw their own
01:19:19 ◼ ► machines and do a lot of stuff and it gives them an advantage both in terms of cost and innovation
01:19:23 ◼ ► and lots of lots of other areas amazon has an advantage because you know they they built aws
01:19:30 ◼ ► is kind of this weird side business now it is a huge business because as i said every other
01:19:33 ◼ ► freaking company in the world is using the public cloud to run their businesses on and that's a
01:19:36 ◼ ► pretty darn good business look at like bezos's like yearly report or whatever aws is a good
01:19:42 ◼ ► business it's nice to have you know it's maybe it's not an iphone size business but it's a big
01:19:46 ◼ ► business and it's nice to have that and by the way there's synergy between that business and what
01:19:51 ◼ ► amazon does and all that other stuff apple a lot of the same things are true it would gain both a
01:19:56 ◼ ► cost and innovative innovation advantage to running its own cloud it if they decided to ever sell
01:20:01 ◼ ► their services like google and microsoft and amazon do that could be a big business but on the
01:20:07 ◼ ► other hand it's also a crowded market and apple is not traditionally being particularly good at this
01:20:10 ◼ ► but on the other other hand maybe they should be good at it so it is way more complicated question
01:20:16 ◼ ► today than it used to be used to be the answer was simple nobody should run their own cloud it's
01:20:20 ◼ ► stupid today the answer is nobody should run their own cloud except maybe apple might think about it
01:20:26 ◼ ► like there's like five companies in the world that are on their own cloud and apple might be one of
01:20:30 ◼ ► them so i think this is an interesting question i don't think it's a really good answer i mean i
01:20:35 ◼ ► think it's it's even simpler than that i mean this is a this is a role that is easily outsourced
01:20:43 ◼ ► because it is it is separate from like it's easy to separate this role out of like dumb server stuff
01:20:49 ◼ ► or dumb online services like it's easy to outsource that to aws or various companies like aws and it's
01:20:56 ◼ ► hard for apple to build that up to a large scale reasonably quickly like apple's cloud needs and
01:21:05 ◼ ► back end needs have grown a ton over the last decade apple itself seems to have a lot of
01:21:10 ◼ ► trouble multitasking as a company in general they have they seem to have a lot of trouble scaling
01:21:15 ◼ ► their company scaling their head count in particular they just seem like they're they don't
01:21:19 ◼ ► do that very quickly or very easily and when they try it seems like they have trouble this seems like
01:21:24 ◼ ► an easy thing to like take this big boring highly commoditized role and have someone else do it for
01:21:31 ◼ ► us because not only can we then not build all that out ourselves and save some head count and
01:21:37 ◼ ► save some complexity there it's also possible that amazon can do it cheaper than we can
01:21:43 ◼ ► that's not spoken like someone who hasn't paid a big aws bill lately i mean they certainly can do
01:21:50 ◼ ► it cheaper but it won't be cheaper to you because they charge a profit margin on those things they
01:21:56 ◼ ► do but it's it's a highly commoditized market that's very competitive and easily switched
01:22:00 ◼ ► between providers they're using it right not as commoditized as you would think it is like there's
01:22:05 ◼ ► it really depends like i see what like you're making the argument for the old apple but i think
01:22:10 ◼ ► what you're really saying is apple is so late to the market that it's too late for them to be
01:22:13 ◼ ► competitive but well both like i'm saying that they are pretty late to this market especially as you
01:22:19 ◼ ► mentioned like this is not historically an area where they've been incredibly competent or cared
01:22:24 ◼ ► very strongly to become competent so like this is something that they don't really value much as a
01:22:29 ◼ ► company uh you know the whole thing of like you know like the i think the tim cook doctrine of
01:22:33 ◼ ► like we want to do things that we can add value to they can't add value to data center but they
01:22:38 ◼ ► could like if they did what google did google and amazon both add value to that but they add value
01:22:43 ◼ ► to their own businesses and they add value in terms of they sell it to other people like it's
01:22:46 ◼ ► a good business and like what google does how they can make their data if google paid for aws
01:22:52 ◼ ► it would cost them so much money and by the way they'd also be paying a potential competitor right
01:22:56 ◼ ► google does their own stuff because they're google and they do it really really well for their own
01:23:02 ◼ ► purposes google cloud is is a good example google cloud is the best example apple shouldn't do google
01:23:07 ◼ ► has their public cloud service and even though i think google has best in class best in the entire
01:23:12 ◼ ► world data center management and systems for their own stuff like the google search engine and all
01:23:17 ◼ ► that other stuff they are behind amazon in terms of selling that to the public because they came in
01:23:23 ◼ ► too late and if google's having trouble catching aws what chance does apple have right but that's
01:23:28 ◼ ► kind of the pessimistic taste and on the other hand apple uh was considering making a car so
01:23:39 ◼ ► apple should have already been in on the public cloud and many many years ago but they haven't
01:23:45 ◼ ► so maybe it is too late but i think it is not it's not entirely slam dunk and depending on how this
01:23:52 ◼ ► shakes out long term apple may seriously regret not getting into the space because i can tell you
01:23:59 ◼ ► that there's a lot of money to be made selling these services to other people uh adws bills
01:24:05 ◼ ► really add up and no matter who you go to who's apple going to go to their public cloud they're
01:24:10 ◼ ► not going to run their own they're either going to pay microsoft google or amazon that's not a
01:24:14 ◼ ► great situation to be in and they're going to pay them a lot of money that's if they're going to be
01:24:18 ◼ ► a big that's not a good situation to be in for apple like you don't want to be it's kind of like
01:24:22 ◼ ► google paying apple billions of dollars to be the default search on ios it's you really don't want to
01:24:28 ◼ ► be giving that much money to your competitors especially when they know they kind of have you
01:24:32 ◼ ► over a barrel because what are you going to do move all your crap from aos into azure it's not
01:24:36 ◼ ► it's not an easy lift all right this next piece of ask atp has been lingering in our document for
01:24:43 ◼ ► probably two or three months and we keep just putting it off putting it off putting it off
01:24:47 ◼ ► putting it off but sometime forever ago paul wood the third wrote hey you know john roderick has
01:24:54 ◼ ► and merlin i guess is what he was intending have discussed their top 10 sports cars on roderick on
01:25:00 ◼ ► the line can we get that list on atp and hear from marco and casey as well oh did you did you discuss
01:25:06 ◼ ► this with roderick yeah when he was on rectiffs a while back i think we talked about it ah okay
01:25:10 ◼ ► right right so anyway so i put this in the show notes and then uh apparently john has added a
01:25:17 ◼ ► tweet wherein this was already decided in 2016 so would you like to tell me about that john yeah i
01:25:21 ◼ ► think that's when i had a roderica and reconcilable differences with me and we discussed this and i
01:25:25 ◼ ► think i tweeted about it my list hasn't changed that much i i start this is the list i put in
01:25:31 ◼ ► the tweet and it's tweet link so you can't go into super detail but there are nuances to it
01:25:40 ◼ ► i'll describe it and then we can fill in the fill in the variables later like whatever the current
01:25:49 ◼ ► mid-engine uh ferrari uh v8 sports car is like whatever the latest model that's usually on my
01:25:55 ◼ ► list so in this at the time it was a 488 but now it's the what the hell is the thing called
01:25:59 ◼ ► tributo f8 tributo or something like that anyway whatever that one is the current one that one
01:26:05 ◼ ► keeps changing then the ferrari 458 because it's the last naturally aspirated iteration of that
01:26:11 ◼ ► model line bmw m3 but i mean the m3 that was around in like the what i always forget is the
01:26:17 ◼ ► e46 is the one that i like the one that was around that was new in like 95 96 i think it's that's e36
01:26:25 ◼ ► no i think it's the 46 is the one i like no e46 was early 2000s well i like that whatever the
01:26:30 ◼ ► one is that has the little like uh slats by the by the m3 badge i don't know which one you're talking
01:26:36 ◼ ► about you're talking about rich seagulls m3 because that's that's an e46 if you're talking
01:26:40 ◼ ► about a little boxier than that it's e36 yeah it's rich seagulls e46 that's early 2000s yeah that's
01:26:45 ◼ ► the m3 that i'm talking about mercedes s600 which i didn't put a year on that but it varies from year
01:26:50 ◼ ► sometimes i like them i don't like them but what i'm basically saying is the big v12 ridiculously
01:26:55 ◼ ► huge mercedes sedan that's like driving a living room that one i had tesla model s on here in 2016
01:27:02 ◼ ► but honestly i think i would remove that now because i'm really down on tesla and i'm just
01:27:06 ◼ ► angry and scared of the company and then of course mclaren f1 because why not all right for me i
01:27:13 ◼ ► thought the well i have to explain pretty much all of these uh the c3 corvette which is like the
01:27:20 ◼ ► mid to late 70s ish which by most standards is one of the worst if not the worst corvette of all time
01:27:29 ◼ ► however my dad had a 77 vet for a long time when i was growing up which i probably told that story
01:27:33 ◼ ► about 15 times on the show and on neutral but the c3 corvette i would love to have one of those um
01:27:39 ◼ ► the z32 uh so this is the nissan 300 zx uh from the early 1990s i had a 91 non-turbo many many
01:27:47 ◼ ► years ago i love that car i don't regret selling that car but i regret selling that car an aspen
01:27:53 ◼ ► martin dbs of pretty much any vintage something modern that i should say but leo be that brand new
01:28:00 ◼ ► or five years old or 10 years old whatever i'd be fine with it uh lamborghini diablo uh i don't care
01:28:05 ◼ ► what specific flavor of the diablo but that was my ultimate car when i was really coming of age when
01:28:10 ◼ ► i was a little kid and uh and i love that thing and i would even though i'm sure i would hate to
01:28:15 ◼ ► drive it i would still love to have one e39 m5 because it's been one of my favorite cars of all
01:28:20 ◼ ► time pretty much since the moment i laid eyes on it uh i echo your for you know v8 mid-engine
01:28:26 ◼ ► ferrari so like the 488 or what have you i echo your mclaren f1 and i'd also i would love to you
01:28:31 ◼ ► know have a bugatti varan just because i think it would be a cool thing to have as puke oh come on
01:28:38 ◼ ► so ugly so i'm not saying it's i'm not saying it's pretty i'm just pretty cool in person
01:28:43 ◼ ► i don't think i've ever seen one in person but i do not like that car i know i just feel like
01:28:49 ◼ ► it's the we spared no expense version of the automobile and i kind of respect well they
01:28:53 ◼ ► spared no pound that's for sure well they spared no expense brutal uh all right marco hit me all
01:29:02 ◼ ► right you're gonna hate my list of course i was gonna have an mr2 on it let's go one of the
01:29:08 ◼ ► entries i begin with quote ferrari whatever because i don't know enough about ferraris to say which
01:29:15 ◼ ► one you should get a ferrari california for that's your punishment for putting that on the list
01:29:19 ◼ ► oh god yeah because i i know i should i should want them because they're like the driver enthusiasts
01:29:24 ◼ ► car but i don't know anything about them so i figured i'd let john pick my ferrari yeah
01:29:28 ◼ ► um current mid-engine actually i would just i would i would just wait or i would get the 458
01:29:33 ◼ ► those are your two choices okay whatever you said that um i also thought uh in the like i like my
01:29:41 ◼ ► large fast electric cars like i like that and so i have model s model 3 the Porsche Taycan or is
01:29:49 ◼ ► that the mission wait why are you putting model 3 on the list why would you want you have a model s
01:29:53 ◼ ► why would you want a model 3 which is just the worst model s i needed 10. oh okay now you didn't
01:29:58 ◼ ► i didn't get 10. i just listed good all right all right all right so model s course take on and uh
01:30:04 ◼ ► the m5 i thought like you know i had one it was great and i i haven't tried the new one yet one's
01:30:09 ◼ ► really good they say right and so that would be certainly on the list to consider i like large
01:30:13 ◼ ► stands um in the uh smaller category uh i'm very curious about the new tesla roadster not enough
01:30:21 ◼ ► to buy one but it looks pretty cool i'll also ask to martin whatever you know casey can tell me which
01:30:26 ◼ ► has to martin to get and uh and then also um i'm not i've never been in one i'm not sure that i
01:30:32 ◼ ► would actually enjoy it but i find the bmwi8 very attractive in person i think it looks striking and
01:30:39 ◼ ► really impressive uh i would agree with that the other thing and i've said this in other places i
01:30:44 ◼ ► think but the other car that i think is does not photograph terribly well but i think is gorgeous
01:30:49 ◼ ► in person person is the audi r8 i agree i do not like the look of those on paper but i think they
01:30:56 ◼ ► are very pretty they look better in person than they do in photos but it is not to my taste i
01:31:00 ◼ ► can't have all the two-tone panel on the side it's just yeah it definitely it allows for some pretty
01:31:06 ◼ ► ugly color combos they aren't all ugly and even when it's not there's a texture difference there
01:31:12 ◼ ► that bothers me and then finally um in the uh small fast like kind of enthusiast category
01:31:19 ◼ ► uh i have the porsche cayman which i've also never been in uh but i've heard they're wonderful to
01:31:23 ◼ ► drive and they're mid-engine which i've never driven uh and so i'm i'm curious about that
01:31:28 ◼ ► the only downside with the cayman is that you're basically sitting on the ground from what i can
01:31:33 ◼ ► tell and so my final pick uh is the bmw m2 i thought you were gonna pick a cheap wrangler
01:31:38 ◼ ► no because like the m2 like it seems very similar to the 1m that i had and that was a really fun
01:31:46 ◼ ► car and what i what i especially liked about the 1m is that it was a small fast sporty car
01:31:50 ◼ ► but that you were sitting at regular sedan height not like sitting on the ground and the m2 appears
01:31:58 ◼ ► to basically be like the next version of that and so i'm very curious like to possibly try one of
01:32:02 ◼ ► those ultimately though like i'm so converted to electric at this point what i really want
01:32:07 ◼ ► bmw to make is an electric 2 series but they don't seem interested in doing that anytime soon
01:32:13 ◼ ► well thanks to our sponsors this week hover aero and clear and we will see you next week
01:32:47 ◼ ► and if you're into twitter you can follow them at c a s e y l i s s so that's kacy list m a r c
01:33:17 ◼ ► tech i was uh summoned to jury duty this week uh i recognize this is not a popular opinion
01:33:30 ◼ ► i really hate jury duty i it makes me what some would call unreasonably angry i call it perfectly
01:33:38 ◼ ► reasonable um i really don't like jury duty and i recognize why we do it the way we do i think it's
01:33:46 ◼ ► an incredibly broken imperfect system and not the right solution but that's just me and everyone else
01:33:52 ◼ ► seems to care about it a lot more than i do so i'll just stop my complaining there going to jury duty
01:33:57 ◼ ► makes me very angry i don't like going i don't like being there i especially don't like how much
01:34:04 ◼ ► they spend all this time showing you videos and stuff that thank you for going because i don't
01:34:09 ◼ ► think it's dignified to be thanked for something you were forced to attend that seems insulting
01:34:16 ◼ ► at best to legally kidnap me force me to be there and then say thanks for coming uh anyway last time
01:34:25 ◼ ► i served jury duty i i never got to a trial it just basically made me wait in a jury waiting room
01:34:32 ◼ ► to be maybe called to a courtroom for a few days eventually i i believe i even talked about on the
01:34:38 ◼ ► show eventually i was called up for a court into into a a courtroom and i was kicked out during
01:34:44 ◼ ► vardhir because i said i didn't trust authority i'd forgotten about that yes yes yes yeah anyway
01:34:51 ◼ ► but the vast majority of the time was not even in a courtroom it was sitting in a jury waiting room
01:34:57 ◼ ► with other potential jurors with nothing to do and these are federal courts that i get summoned to
01:35:01 ◼ ► this is the southern district of new york federal court and the federal courts are extremely strict
01:35:08 ◼ ► that you cannot bring any kind of electronics into the courtroom and so last or into the building
01:35:16 ◼ ► even and so as i was sitting there last time in this jury waiting room i had nothing to do like i
01:35:22 ◼ ► i had printed out articles to read and i brought like a magazine or two and i had just totally
01:35:29 ◼ ► under provisioned for like how much material i would need for the amount of time that i was
01:35:34 ◼ ► going to be there that's a good thing you're such an avid reader of novels so you have plenty to
01:35:38 ◼ ► fill your time right yeah exactly yeah like so anyway so last time i was dramatically under
01:35:43 ◼ ► prepared and i was bored out of my mind and i was super mad which made it even worse so
01:35:47 ◼ ► this time i wanted to do it right now as john mentioned i think a normal person's solution
01:35:53 ◼ ► to this would be to bring a book and this time i did i brought the creativity ink book that john
01:36:01 ◼ ► recommended um because i said i'm gonna bring a book this time damn it but i don't like reading
01:36:06 ◼ ► books very much so i wanted more options than that so for my mental health i wanted a way to have
01:36:14 ◼ ► my two favorite things music and podcasts now you might assume as one would that i was out of luck
01:36:23 ◼ ► because you aren't allowed to bring electronic devices to jury duty and that makes sense in
01:36:28 ◼ ► people's picture of jury duty where they picture you immediately go into a courtroom and sitting
01:36:33 ◼ ► and being paying attention you wouldn't want jurors using their phones during a trial and
01:36:36 ◼ ► that's all true but that isn't what jury duty is that's what jury duty really is at least in this
01:36:43 ◼ ► federal court i keep being summoned too because it's random law uh is that you go and sit in this
01:36:49 ◼ ► room for a long time possibly for days without going to a courtroom so you're basically just
01:36:53 ◼ ► sitting in a waiting room i see no harm in having electronics in that room so i decided to this time
01:37:01 ◼ ► try to push the boundaries a little and see if i could bring of course something that could play
01:37:07 ◼ ► music and podcasts while i was in this waiting room waiting around to do nothing and ideally i
01:37:12 ◼ ► was even thinking like it'd be nice if i could have an e-reader or something so i wouldn't have
01:37:18 ◼ ► to carry around paper books i have a few ebooks i'd like to read i didn't own any paper books that
01:37:24 ◼ ► i really wanted to read that i haven't yet so like i don't want to just buy a paper book just to bring
01:37:28 ◼ ► here like if i have ebooks that i can read so i'd like to bring an e-reader if possible and something
01:37:33 ◼ ► that can play mp3s and and maybe one device that could do both would be ideal i decided to be a
01:37:38 ◼ ► lawyer about it like i looked at the exact wording of what the rule was the summons that you get in
01:37:50 ◼ ► blackberries pdas laptops and the like to the courthouse so of course i mean my first question
01:37:58 ◼ ► is like what's the last time somebody tried to bring a blackberry or a pda into the courthouse
01:38:02 ◼ ► but like so it says do not bring electronic equipment including blah blah blah and the like
01:38:06 ◼ ► electronic equipment is very broad but there's a lot of it that is not like those things like
01:38:13 ◼ ► is a digital watch electronic equipment that's like pda's laptops and blackberries no what about
01:38:20 ◼ ► a fitbit and one question is what about an e-reader is that like a cell phone pda or laptop
01:38:28 ◼ ► maybe maybe not so the good thing is that i i called that you have to like call the night before
01:38:34 ◼ ► to listen to a recording to see if you actually have to go in that day and the phone message
01:38:38 ◼ ► had different wording oh god it said no pocket knives cell phones blackberries or internet
01:38:46 ◼ ► capable devices are allowed in the last one that killed what i was going to say because you were
01:38:51 ◼ ► mentioned digital watches and there is a kind of watch that you can use to listen to both music and
01:38:55 ◼ ► podcasts but unfortunately it is internet capable right so i saw i don't i don't have a pocket knife
01:39:00 ◼ ► that one's easy you don't have a pocket knife no i'm not a knife person no cell phones blackberries
01:39:06 ◼ ► or internet capable devices okay now this is much more specific internet capable okay so nothing
01:39:12 ◼ ► with cellular obviously probably nothing with wi-fi either it's questionable what they mean by
01:39:18 ◼ ► internet capable but you know let's say nothing with wi-fi either now there's also a separate rule
01:39:23 ◼ ► that you aren't allowed to have image or sound recording devices in a courtroom so nothing with
01:39:28 ◼ ► a camera or microphones so before i move on if you were in this position what if anything would you
01:39:35 ◼ ► bring the obvious answer is some sort of portable turntable duh no you could bring a five-piece band
01:39:42 ◼ ► yeah that's true there's nothing about musical instruments nobody says you can't bring like
01:39:46 ◼ ► a wedding band in with you and just entertain the entire waiting room can i bring like mike and
01:39:51 ◼ ► jason to come like have a conversation in front of me about the apple news of the week yeah and
01:39:55 ◼ ► then the podcasting you just bring a bunch of people who will sit behind a table and talk
01:39:58 ◼ ► that's awesome kacy what would you bring uh all kidding aside i would certainly bring like a
01:40:06 ◼ ► backpack full of magazines and novels and so on and so forth like if i couldn't bring a kindle
01:40:12 ◼ ► then i would bring a series of novels or something like that so e-reading was the first thing i tried
01:40:18 ◼ ► to tackle so an e-reader is probably the easiest thing to get away with the problem is no kindle
01:40:24 ◼ ► has ever been made that doesn't have either wi-fi cellular or both i was gonna say they were all
01:40:28 ◼ ► internet capable yes now the old sony readers were neither of those things the old sony readers would
01:40:34 ◼ ► pass this test uh but i believe i mailed mine to you john years ago as part of packing material
01:40:40 ◼ ► with other kindles around it i had one sony reader like forever ago and you can't really buy them
01:40:45 ◼ ► quickly these days so i thought me you know a kindle would probably not pass the test but
01:40:51 ◼ ► what matters isn't whether something has wi-fi but whether a courtroom security guard is likely
01:40:59 ◼ ► to know that it has wi-fi so i figured i could actually probably get away with a kindle but what
01:41:06 ◼ ► i really wanted ideally i figured like trying to carry a bunch of stuff in there was risky i wanted
01:41:11 ◼ ► to only try to get one thing past them that was a questionable electronic device so i really wanted
01:41:16 ◼ ► a kindle with a headphone jack so i could also play music and podcasts from it now the only
01:41:22 ◼ ► problem is i gave all those to john too like many kindles have headphone jacks i don't own any of
01:41:26 ◼ ► them right now the only one i right now the only kindle i own is a first generation oasis not the
01:41:32 ◼ ► current the current one's the second generation and the first generation oasis has no audio output
01:41:35 ◼ ► at all so if all it could do for me was the reading functions and just replace like a book well i could
01:41:41 ◼ ► just bring a book like that's not that big of a deal if this device is only going to replace one
01:41:46 ◼ ► book it isn't worth the risk if it can't also be an audio player now i looked the newest kindles
01:41:52 ◼ ► all support bluetooth audio output that could be great except that they only support this for
01:41:59 ◼ ► audible audiobooks but in the audible app on the kindle so previous kindles back when they had
01:42:04 ◼ ► headphone jacks you could sideload music onto its memory by just like plugging in through usb to
01:42:08 ◼ ► your computer you could like put music in a folder and i could play it modern kindles can't do that
01:42:12 ◼ ► anymore apparently and i don't actually i didn't actually have one that could do this to test with
01:42:16 ◼ ► but the information i could find basically said they will only play stuff from the audible app
01:42:20 ◼ ► you can't load stuff on them anymore so i couldn't like load podcasts onto them so between that and
01:42:25 ◼ ► you know the my situation here i figured e-readers we're not going to work out they have too little
01:42:30 ◼ ► upside for too much risk so i decided to stick with paper for my reading needs and only try to
01:42:34 ◼ ► solve for music and podcasts electronically the correct modern solution as john alluded to a
01:42:40 ◼ ► minute ago would probably be an apple watch with air pods but the apple watch has wi-fi some of
01:42:46 ◼ ► them have cellular and they all have microphones and the apple watch is instantly recognizable
01:42:52 ◼ ► to most people and most people know that apple watches are kind of like phones and they have
01:42:58 ◼ ► phone-like features so i think any security guard it would be a pretty high risk like they're
01:43:04 ◼ ► probably not gonna let apple watch through because they know an apple watch is like a phone and you
01:43:08 ◼ ► know bluetooth again i wasn't sure if i could really rely on that you know it is it's not
01:43:13 ◼ ► usually used to provide an internet service though it can be it's also you know it is a wireless
01:43:18 ◼ ► electronic communication method and i figured like the guards probably wouldn't be willing to debate
01:43:24 ◼ ► this with me you know so i actually i thought like a little music player would be ideal
01:43:32 ◼ ► uh i actually have a little sony music player that is otherwise perfect except that it's very
01:43:41 ◼ ► obviously an audio recorder that's what it really is it has these two giant microphones on the top
01:43:46 ◼ ► and it has a giant red record button on the front so i figured that was too risky because you aren't
01:43:52 ◼ ► allowed to record stuff so clearly that was not a good idea so what i needed really was an ipod
01:43:58 ◼ ► you know something that looks old and basic enough that any security guard would recognize it as
01:44:06 ◼ ► just a music player and they would know this has no internet or phone capabilities whatsoever
01:44:16 ◼ ► or nomad did you were you one of the nomad people i don't remember no i i briefly had one of the
01:44:21 ◼ ► ones that was a big hard drive but it wasn't it wasn't the nomad brand it was another brand i
01:44:25 ◼ ► forget i forget which one it was but it was some other brand well it was uh it was like creative
01:44:29 ◼ ► something something nomad is that right you know what i'm thinking of right the one that looks like
01:44:32 ◼ ► a yeah you're thinking of the creator of nomad jukebox which is which is the one that looks like
01:44:35 ◼ ► a fat disc man and it had like a five gig hard drive in it yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah i had
01:44:39 ◼ ► one that was by a different company that had a hard drive and i had one that played mp3 cdr's
01:44:43 ◼ ► which is much better um anyway i decided ipod is the way to go here people recognize ipods they
01:44:49 ◼ ► know what they look like they know what they are and they know and they know what they aren't and
01:44:53 ◼ ► they know it's clearly just an ipod right so that's what i wanted problem is we don't have
01:44:58 ◼ ► a working ipod whoops and most i yeah like tiff has her old ipod mini but it's i don't even think
01:45:03 ◼ ► we have a 30-pin cable anymore like i don't think i could plug it in if i wanted to and i'm pretty
01:45:08 ◼ ► sure the battery because most ipods that are still around today have batteries that are like 10 or 15
01:45:13 ◼ ► years old and so they can't hold a charge anymore and you can actually still today buy new ipods
01:45:20 ◼ ► that are refurbished with new batteries the problem is these are like 200 and up like the ipod nano
01:45:29 ◼ ► refurbished with a new battery is like 180 for most places a small price to pay but they retail
01:45:36 ◼ ► for 150 when they were new like they're actually more than msrp now and an ipod classic they're
01:45:41 ◼ ► even more ipod classics are like over 300 for like one in good shape that has a new battery
01:45:45 ◼ ► and i also thought though like looking at the ipod nano availability the seventh generation
01:45:50 ◼ ► nano the latest one is the one that looks like a tiny iphone like it has the home button and a big
01:45:55 ◼ ► touch screen and so i figured the security guards might not let that one through because it was
01:46:01 ◼ ► never very popular like by the time that came out iphones were taking over so like it wasn't very
01:46:04 ◼ ► popular and it looks like a small phone so i figured there's actually a risk so the one i
01:46:09 ◼ ► really wanted was the fifth generation that was the last one that had the iconic ipod nano shape
01:46:15 ◼ ► with with the screen on top and the buttons in a circle below it like that's the last one that
01:46:20 ◼ ► looks like you know the ipod shaped ipod was the seventh generation ipod nano or the sorry the
01:46:24 ◼ ► fifth generation ipod nano problem is those are those were again like 200 for a refurbished one
01:46:28 ◼ ► with a new battery and i also thought like am i going to spend 200 on something that the next time
01:46:34 ◼ ► i need this thing is probably going to be when they call me back in another five years and five
01:46:39 ◼ ► years from now will that battery still work and more importantly will i still be able to sync
01:46:45 ◼ ► files to an ipod using itunes in five years probably not let's just all sit back and appreciate
01:46:52 ◼ ► the fact that you are even considering making a one-time 200 purchase for a single day activity
01:46:58 ◼ ► that may repeat every five years correct just appreciate that i it felt rich to me like i felt
01:47:03 ◼ ► what it's like to be marco yeah so honestly the price really put me off if if not for the if it
01:47:09 ◼ ► was like 50 i would have done it no question 200 felt a little ridiculous for this purpose
01:47:15 ◼ ► but the good thing is i am not the first person to have ever wanted a cheap ipod the ipod spawned
01:47:22 ◼ ► a thousand clones and many of them are still around today and still being made still brand new
01:47:30 ◼ ► and because it is 2019 they cost basically nothing so i will put in the show notes the one i chose
01:47:40 ◼ ► i bought the agp tech mp3 player 8 gigabyte bluetooth 4.0 upgraded a02t lossless sport music
01:47:47 ◼ ► player with fm radio voice recorder expandable up to 128 gigs black for kids and adult voice recorder
01:47:52 ◼ ► so i selected this one in part because it looked very similar to an ipod nano also in part because
01:48:06 ◼ ► because it was 26 dollars i should clarify the price has since gone to 29 but when i bought it
01:48:12 ◼ ► it was 26 now john noticed a few problematic keywords it does have bluetooth and it does
01:48:24 ◼ ► visually apparent the microphone as far i i didn't even test where it was but there's a small hole
01:48:29 ◼ ► on the back of it i think that's the microphone it might not even be it might just be like it might
01:48:34 ◼ ► just use a microphone that's on the earbuds if you happen to be using like a trs earbud set
01:48:38 ◼ ► uh so i don't know i never tried the voice recorder i assume it was recording everything
01:48:42 ◼ ► and transmitting it back to a data center in china the whole time you were there so maybe uh so
01:48:47 ◼ ► anyway uh that's what bloomberg said anyway right yeah exactly so because the voice recorder aspect
01:48:55 ◼ ► of it was not visually apparent at all and i wasn't even sure it even had a microphone i
01:48:59 ◼ ► figured that would probably not be a problem so i loaded it up and you know it's there is no sync
01:49:05 ◼ ► software to be had you just you plug it in and it's a usb device and you copy stuff over two
01:49:11 ◼ ► folders on it it's great um i loaded up with music i i put some podcasts on it and uh i wrapped an
01:49:17 ◼ ► old wired pair of white apple earbuds around it like it's 2005 you know and i brought to the
01:49:23 ◼ ► courthouse now they were very very clear in the instructions don't even bring your phone into the
01:49:29 ◼ ► building just don't even bring it with you that day at all or leave it in your car so i left it
01:49:33 ◼ ► locked in my gloves in my glove box because i wasn't going to not bring it obviously i got to
01:49:37 ◼ ► get there somehow don't leave your phone in your car that's not i mean you probably got away with
01:49:42 ◼ ► it because you know whatever and the tesla is kind of climate control but that's bad for your phone
01:49:46 ◼ ► don't leave your phone in your car sorry uh anyway so i left it in the glove box locked up um the
01:49:51 ◼ ► first thing i had to do was figure out where to park i had to you know go into like a big
01:49:56 ◼ ► municipal city parking garage and i had my phone until i parked but then i had to leave my phone in
01:50:01 ◼ ► the car so the first thing i had to do was figure out how to pay for this parking and there's signs
01:50:06 ◼ ► up saying remember your parking spot my usual solution of this would be to take a picture of
01:50:12 ◼ ► the parking spot and if not that i would at least usually take a picture of the sign by the elevator
01:50:18 ◼ ► that told me what floor i was on and whether it's like east or north or whatever and i couldn't do
01:50:22 ◼ ► those things so i had to like i like my short-term memory for these things is gone like i the skill
01:50:27 ◼ ► i have to remember parking spots is gone because i haven't used it in you know what 10 years so i i
01:50:34 ◼ ► took out a notebook and a pencil which i had to buy for this this is where you need the the mike
01:50:42 ◼ ► hurley in your life you got a bunch of expensive hipster notebooks and a million pens yeah well
01:50:47 ◼ ► fortunately i have tiff but i but our tastes aren't they don't overlap that much in this area
01:50:52 ◼ ► gigantic sparkly fountain pen to write down what parking spot you're in yeah so i took out a brand
01:50:59 ◼ ► new notebook and a brand new mechanical pencil and i had to write down like my parking spot and
01:51:04 ◼ ► everything could you just look for the big red tesla i mean how many other red teslas were there
01:51:09 ◼ ► in the parking lot at the time it was i was lost man it was terrible like and so anyway so i
01:51:14 ◼ ► i i eventually found the pay station and the elevators and everything and i paid i couldn't
01:51:18 ◼ ► use apple pay i had to use my credit card like a animal and then uh then i had to find the courthouse
01:51:27 ◼ ► from the parking garage which was about a block and a half or two away and so i walked out of the
01:51:33 ◼ ► parking garage and basically immediately got lost like i like walked up and down the block
01:51:41 ◼ ► one different direction like where the hell i i i had already forgotten even the name of the street
01:51:46 ◼ ► that the courtroom was on you know you should have just printed map quest directions like we did back
01:51:52 ◼ ► in print that's what i used to do you just need a hankstrom is what you need you should you should
01:51:57 ◼ ► have driven there without navigation too yeah right and so like eventually i found like somebody
01:52:02 ◼ ► was walking by in a suit and i figured he probably knows where the courthouse is so he's wearing a
01:52:06 ◼ ► suit on a weekday morning so i said like hey you know where the uh courthouse is and i couldn't
01:52:12 ◼ ► have lucked out with a better guy he points like across like diagonally across the street and he's
01:52:17 ◼ ► like that one's county that one's city and around the corner from that one is federal like great
01:52:22 ◼ ► all right thanks so i uh that's amazing yeah so i i went to the around the corner one eventually
01:52:29 ◼ ► found the federal like i thank god i would never would have found it on my own like it was it was
01:52:32 ◼ ► i was gonna walk around a very long time before finding that uh so it's like finally like i'm a
01:52:37 ◼ ► human without a phone like i'm totally lost finally i find this place um i of course i i'm so mad when
01:52:45 ◼ ► i get there that i have to do all this i immediately wanted to take a picture of myself outside the
01:52:48 ◼ ► courtroom or outside the building like flipping it off and realized i had no camera with me and
01:52:52 ◼ ► couldn't do that so i'm like oh here we go modern life tracks again you could still flip off the
01:52:56 ◼ ► building even with there's no camera there to record it it's not the same anyway so it's not
01:53:01 ◼ ► the same so the uh so i get in go through security the security guards seem pretty nice and you know
01:53:07 ◼ ► take everything out take everything out and he glanced at the mp3 player and initially he said
01:53:12 ◼ ► he gave it a quick glance and he said no electronics but of course i was trying to get i'm like it's
01:53:17 ◼ ► just an mp3 player sir and and he stopped for a minute and he looked more closely at it because
01:53:22 ◼ ► you could tell you know it's like like it's like tsa like they get they have to say the same thing
01:53:26 ◼ ► a million times to everybody who comes in so they're sick of it they're not really thinking
01:53:30 ◼ ► when they first say it he actually took a look at it and he realized it looks like an ipod nano with
01:53:35 ◼ ► white headphones wrapped around it and he he like asked the guard like in the next lane over like
01:53:39 ◼ ► hey we allow these now right and so they mumbled to each other and then he waved me through he said
01:53:44 ◼ ► all right it's fine so i had it i got it through i was able to bring nice an ipod like mp3 player
01:53:52 ◼ ► into the courthouse and uh it was fine so i can tell you finally with my day of using it in the
01:54:01 ◼ ► in the waiting room which is fortunately they sent us home early and then we were done and i
01:54:06 ◼ ► don't have to go back because it turns out this week there weren't a lot of cases needing juries
01:54:12 ◼ ► and white planes uh so it was a short i only actually needed it for like two-thirds of a day
01:54:18 ◼ ► but in my two-thirds of a day of using it i can tell you my review of the agp tech a02t
01:54:32 ◼ ► the body of it is that like that like cheap soft touch rubbery plastic you know what i'm talking
01:54:38 ◼ ► about yeah like it's like every every super cheap device is made from that now um the screen is
01:54:46 ◼ ► horrendous looking like the resolution is terrible the viewing angle like i don't think there is a
01:54:50 ◼ ► good angle to view it okay it's just what if there is i couldn't find it um none of the buttons or
01:54:56 ◼ ► switches feel remotely good to use um the buttons only work about two-thirds of the time uh and
01:55:05 ◼ ► lots of navigation just requires like you know oh just push it again like my kicking machine like
01:55:10 ◼ ► just push it again and it'll solve the problem it doesn't support the remote control clicker buttons
01:55:16 ◼ ► on the ipod headphones for like volume up and down or play pause which i immediately missed for
01:55:22 ◼ ► listening to podcast i had using a command line tool of course i had pre-processed the files to
01:55:28 ◼ ► bake in smart speed of course you did but they were all still at 1x and there was no easy 30
01:55:35 ◼ ► seconds skip forward and back buttons so it wasn't really ideal uh for podcasts um the device has
01:55:44 ◼ ► some other issues as well upon boot up about one out of five times it says no files found which is
01:55:51 ◼ ► terrifying when you've loaded this up to go to jury duty but then you just wait a second and they're
01:55:56 ◼ ► all there uh sometimes it doesn't resume from sleep and needs to be power cycled when you do
01:56:03 ◼ ► this this is one of many conditions i found where it will lose the position in whatever you're
01:56:07 ◼ ► listening to which is another thing that made listening to podcasts fairly non-ideal on this
01:56:12 ◼ ► device it does support video playback but it only plays 128 by 160 amv files what i if you look up
01:56:24 ◼ ► amv on wikipedia this is actually a music video no it's actually a format that's like it's made
01:56:29 ◼ ► for like cell phones and like certain things use a certain like certain type of chipset that's
01:56:33 ◼ ► optimized to play only that and it came with a sample video so i was able to look at that
01:56:39 ◼ ► video like an ffmpeg it's like what is this what are the specs in this but i have been unable to
01:56:43 ◼ ► encode any other videos that will actually play for whatever it's worth if you play a video
01:56:48 ◼ ► normally to get out of what you're doing you would hit the the menu button like the m button on top
01:56:54 ◼ ► if you do that it shows you a menu but none of the options are like quit it took me a long time
01:57:00 ◼ ► to figure out how to exit video playback mode one of the options is update playlist that's how you
01:57:07 ◼ ► leave oh my goodness so you know for video not so good podcasts not so good for music it's fine
01:57:18 ◼ ► you know not great but fine um to play or pause you often need to wake it up first which often
01:57:25 ◼ ► involves multiple button presses that often get lost or ignored and my favorite thing is adjusting
01:57:31 ◼ ► volume to change the volume which is a fairly common action that you often have to do quickly
01:57:36 ◼ ► you have to wake it up so you know hit player pause maybe one to five times over the course
01:57:40 ◼ ► of a few seconds to wake it up then you have to there's a volume button on the bottom but if you
01:57:45 ◼ ► push it nothing happens you have to hold it down for a few seconds to enter the volume menu oh
01:57:51 ◼ ► then you hit up or down a few times to your desired volume level then you like hit play to
01:57:57 ◼ ► be like enter to set it so this thing is pretty much a piece of garbage but it worked and i was
01:58:07 ◼ ► able to slowly and clumsily listen to music and podcasts while i waited around all day to do
01:58:13 ◼ ► nothing in jury duty and that was totally worth 26 to me so while this is a terrible product in
01:58:21 ◼ ► absolute terms i would actually say it's a pretty good value and i still i find it amazing just like
01:58:27 ◼ ► in modern life that i decided i wanted an mp3 player i found one in a few seconds i ordered it
01:58:34 ◼ ► on a saturday and it was delivered on sunday for 26 that's pretty cool that is pretty cool i think
01:58:42 ◼ ► you should have tried an ipod shuffle because i know about the battery i was really old and it
01:58:46 ◼ ► won't hold a charge but like the shuffle does everything you describe better retains your
01:58:50 ◼ ► playback position easy to change the volume wakes up instantly does all the things you're supposed
01:58:54 ◼ ► to do and is much less likely to be flagged as electronics by random security guard guard that's
01:59:00 ◼ ► what i would have gone with well i don't but i didn't have one you don't have a shuffle like in
01:59:03 ◼ ► the house somewhere no the only ipod we own is tiff's old mini what happened all the old other
01:59:08 ◼ ► ones you sold them all i i never had that many i i had i think we had a total of two shuffles ever
01:59:14 ◼ ► and one of them at least one of them died i don't know what happened another one um we had tiff's
01:59:18 ◼ ► ipod mini and i had a ipod video the 5g i think whatever the first video one was i had that one
01:59:24 ◼ ► and that's it i never owned a nano neither a tiff and i never owned any other like classic one
01:59:30 ◼ ► except for the video and that was it and that one i think that one died like 10 years ago or
01:59:35 ◼ ► something like it's it died not recently probably could have found a chinese knockoff ipod shuffle
01:59:40 ◼ ► but then that wouldn't have actually worked like an actual apple would work yeah it's kind of
01:59:45 ◼ ► amazing i can screw that up that badly and the volume changing thing when you go into the volume
01:59:49 ◼ ► menu and change it do you get to hear what the new volume sounds like while you're changing it yes
01:59:54 ◼ ► but you but you have to hit like the enter play button to exit the volume menu so are you holding
02:00:00 ◼ ► on to this for the next jury duty experience i i might as well i mean it's more likely to work in
02:00:05 ◼ ► five years than an ancient ipod well we'll see we'll see put it in the box says jury duty and
02:00:12 ◼ ► you'll open another one just be an exploded battery oh yeah the plastic will all be like
02:00:17 ◼ ► liquefied oh gosh now i'm also wondering if you were to do this again tomorrow for the sake of
02:00:25 ◼ ► discussion would you be spending any time splitting your podcast mp3s like in every minute so it's
02:00:33 ◼ ► easier to seek effectively back to where you left off or like mark to yourself where you've left
02:00:38 ◼ ► off because you say that it loses your place a lot and and it's just not a very good music player
02:00:43 ◼ ► so that that's something my dad used to do all the time with like audiobooks that he would download
02:00:49 ◼ ► like via mp3 or something like that that he would slice them up so that instead of having
02:00:54 ◼ ► each file be like i don't know a chapter or something like that instead each file would
02:00:59 ◼ ► be like 30 seconds or a minute or what have you so that uh so that it was easier for him to come
02:01:05 ◼ ► back to where he was that was going to be my next move like so i mean so i went to jury duty for one
02:01:10 ◼ ► day and then was was not needed after that and so i had a very short term of of using this if i were
02:01:18 ◼ ► going to be there longer i think i would probably actually then at that point go buy an ipod nano
02:01:23 ◼ ► like it's you know spend the 200 and like if i was going to be there for a long time and i and i would
02:01:27 ◼ ► have an opportunity to use this you know more than once i would i would probably go that route i i
02:01:32 ◼ ► also i think if i if i knew like if i if i go back and do it again and i didn't do that option there's
02:01:39 ◼ ► this um there's a sony player that is basically the version of my little nice sony recorder that
02:01:44 ◼ ► isn't a recorder like it's like the it's like the ipod nano version of my little audio recorder that
02:01:49 ◼ ► i have it's like the same generation has lots of the same parts i would it's like it's 75 so it's
02:01:55 ◼ ► more but i would probably try that first before i did before i uh did this you know any any crazy
02:02:02 ◼ ► hacks to make my 26 dollar one work that much better because it is it seems like it's a nicer
02:02:07 ◼ ► built thing the reviews are a little bit mixed but because you know the problem is like a new mp3
02:02:12 ◼ ► player in 2019 this is not a high volume market like there are digital audio players like there
02:02:19 ◼ ► are like portable audio players that are for audio files like for high-end audio listeners that
02:02:23 ◼ ► support like high bitrate stuff and everything but those all look like phones because they all
02:02:28 ◼ ► have these like they're all like the size of phones and they have they have like a big touch
02:02:32 ◼ ► screen on them there's actually very few that aren't touch screens um but i i wanted something
02:02:36 ◼ ► that looked more like an ipod because i figured it'd be more likely to get through whereas