309: Do Not Expect Five Nines From My Plex


00:00:00   How do you pronounce that?

00:00:01   - Let's work on affluent first.

00:00:02   - Is it affluent, not affluent?

00:00:04   Is that right?

00:00:04   Is that what I did wrong? - Yeah, yep.

00:00:05   - I always get that one wrong.

00:00:07   That's my bezel, Jon.

00:00:08   - You've got like nine of those, though.

00:00:10   (laughing)

00:00:12   And I only said it wrong once.

00:00:13   - Well, yeah, but it was a pretty amazing one.

00:00:15   It was gloriously saying it wrong.

00:00:17   - It was pretty amazing.

00:00:19   - But I'm learning, see how I don't make the same mistake.

00:00:22   - I still remember exactly where I was

00:00:24   when I heard that for the first time.

00:00:25   (laughing)

00:00:26   - It's such a significant moment in your life.

00:00:28   - I was walking over the Brooklyn Bridge,

00:00:30   'cause I was doing a weird thing.

00:00:32   So I was walking over the Brooklyn Bridge,

00:00:33   listening to your TV segment, and I heard you say bezel,

00:00:36   and I just cracked up laughing

00:00:38   in the middle of this very crowded area.

00:00:40   And I like rewound it like three times

00:00:42   to just keep hearing it.

00:00:44   (laughing)

00:00:45   It was amazing.

00:00:46   I was walking over the bridge to go visit Jason Santa Maria

00:00:48   to have him read us on Instapaper.

00:00:49   (electronic beeping)

00:00:51   - All right, let's get started.

00:00:52   Let's do some follow-up,

00:00:52   and I have some quick Waffle Iron follow-up.

00:00:55   I know that the ATP universe was just riveted

00:00:59   by my Waffle Iron quest from a few weeks ago now,

00:01:03   maybe a couple months ago.

00:01:05   If you recall, we had a Waring Pro waffle maker

00:01:09   that is no longer being produced that I loved,

00:01:11   and that was our Sunday breakfast for years.

00:01:14   And then the thing kind of exploded out of nowhere.

00:01:16   And we bought a cheap and truly terrible

00:01:20   Hamilton Beach waffle maker

00:01:22   based on a wire cutter pick, I believe.

00:01:25   And it's really bad, and I feel bad saying that

00:01:27   'cause Hamilton Beach is local, actually.

00:01:29   - Yeah, but see, no one ever says,

00:01:31   well, I guess except for this one wire cutter review,

00:01:32   but no one has ever said,

00:01:34   "The best X is the Hamilton Beach one."

00:01:38   - But anyways, we were gifted a Cuisinart WAF F20,

00:01:42   a WAF 20.

00:01:43   - It almost says Waffle.

00:01:44   - Yeah, that's true, actually, good point.

00:01:46   And I just would like to report in

00:01:47   that this is a very, very, very close version

00:01:51   to my beloved Waring Pro.

00:01:52   In fact, I would argue it's probably made

00:01:54   by the same people when it's all said and done.

00:01:56   And now we can make two waffles at once

00:01:58   instead of just one, which is kind of cool.

00:01:59   So if you're looking for a waffle iron,

00:02:00   I strongly recommend the WAF F20

00:02:03   double Belgian waffle maker,

00:02:05   comma, stainless steel by Cuisinart.

00:02:06   - This looks nearly identical to the one I actually have.

00:02:10   'Cause I have the, mine is still branded Waring,

00:02:13   but I think what happened is Waring sold

00:02:14   the consumer business to Cuisinart,

00:02:15   and they're just doing the pro end now.

00:02:17   But this looks identical to mine,

00:02:20   with the sole exception that the power switch on mine

00:02:23   is one of those that has the red LED that glows through it.

00:02:27   But otherwise, it looks identical.

00:02:29   - Yeah, it's really good, and I really recommend it.

00:02:31   And if you have the luxury of living near me,

00:02:35   you should ask to come over for Sunday waffles.

00:02:36   Don't be creepy, I'm just saying.

00:02:38   - You gotta stop putting these emoji in the show notes

00:02:39   that my computer can't display.

00:02:41   It's just punitive now.

00:02:42   (laughing)

00:02:43   - Oh my gosh.

00:02:44   - Waring Pro, period, space, white box.

00:02:48   - It's the drooling emoji in case you were curious.

00:02:52   How old is your, well, we'll get to that later.

00:02:53   Let's not even go there.

00:02:54   - The question is, in what year

00:02:56   was that emoji added to Mac OS?

00:02:58   - Yeah, seriously.

00:03:00   I think that was in the last year or two.

00:03:01   Where's Jeremy Burge when we need him?

00:03:03   All right, that is all for follow-up.

00:03:05   That was world record fast.

00:03:06   John, tell me, is a robot coming back from the future

00:03:10   to terminate you?

00:03:11   What's going on here?

00:03:12   - I shouldn't have put a capital letter T in there

00:03:14   and made you think it was about SCSI terminators,

00:03:16   or I'm not sure what else you would have thought

00:03:17   it was about.

00:03:18   - I would have thought SCSI terminators, actually,

00:03:19   because I don't know what else it would be.

00:03:20   - Is it because, do you know this because I already

00:03:22   complained about it elsewhere, and that's why you know

00:03:24   what I'm talking about?

00:03:25   - No, I don't know what you're gonna talk about.

00:03:26   - Oh, well, what's your guesses?

00:03:28   - I mean, I would have said SCSI terminator,

00:03:31   but I know that's even older than your computer,

00:03:33   which is saying something.

00:03:34   I don't know.

00:03:37   Some, a terminator issue.

00:03:38   - Because it's capitalized, it's gotta be a movie reference,

00:03:42   like to the Terminator movies, I'm guessing it's either

00:03:45   something about Arnold Schwarzenegger, therefore California,

00:03:47   or some kind of issues he's having with California, or--

00:03:50   - What?

00:03:51   That doesn't make any sense.

00:03:52   - Something that promised to be back and now is back.

00:03:54   So maybe the keyboard problem, I don't know.

00:03:57   - I'm proud of you for making pop culture references

00:03:59   to a movie you haven't seen, Marco.

00:04:00   - Correct.

00:04:02   - Now, for the listeners, just to be clear,

00:04:04   the show notes read as follows, John's Terminator woes.

00:04:08   John is, of course, capitalized.

00:04:10   Terminator is capitalized.

00:04:12   Woes is not capitalized.

00:04:13   So John, tell us, what is this about?

00:04:16   - I feel like this is a segment of the show now

00:04:18   where I have, I feel guilty about bringing it up

00:04:21   'cause I'm just here to complain about a thing, but--

00:04:23   - John, this is literally why people love listening

00:04:26   to you on podcasts.

00:04:27   (laughing)

00:04:28   - There's such minor thing.

00:04:29   Anyway, this one, it's minor, but--

00:04:31   - Yes, they're all minor things, that's what we love.

00:04:33   - It's minor, but it's subverted, like, it is rearranged

00:04:37   the, my mental model of like the media world

00:04:41   in an interesting way.

00:04:43   So, as I've talked about in my past shows,

00:04:46   I have all sorts of ways to watch television

00:04:49   and movie things.

00:04:50   I subscribe to all the services under the sun,

00:04:51   although I did actually remember this month

00:04:52   to cancel one of the ones that I haven't watched in a while.

00:04:54   So I am trying to manage my subscriptions better.

00:04:57   But every time, speaking of subscriptions,

00:04:59   every time I have to cancel a subscription,

00:05:03   Gruber keeps talking about how he loves

00:05:05   that Apple subscriptions shows him all the stuff

00:05:07   he subscribes to in one place.

00:05:09   That's true, and it makes it easy to unsubscribe.

00:05:11   You know, you just go to that screen and get rid of it.

00:05:13   Every time I wanna go to that screen,

00:05:14   I have to Google for iTunes subscriptions manage.

00:05:17   Or like, I have to Google where to find it.

00:05:19   And then like the top Google hit is that thing

00:05:20   where they break out the instructions.

00:05:22   I can never remember where the hell it is.

00:05:23   Do you guys know offhand where it is?

00:05:25   - There's actually a new URL.

00:05:27   If you happen to be an Overcast premium member,

00:05:29   and you go to overcast.fm/account,

00:05:32   you can do it there.

00:05:33   Here, I'll just paste it in the show notes.

00:05:34   So it's apps.apple.com/account/subscriptions.

00:05:38   - So you can get to it on your phone too,

00:05:39   not going to a web browser.

00:05:41   And that's the one I usually go to,

00:05:42   and that's the one that eventually kicks you

00:05:43   to what I think is a web interface anyway.

00:05:45   - Yes, well and if you click that URL

00:05:46   from any Apple device, it works on desktop iTunes,

00:05:50   it works on iOS, like it works on any Mac or iOS device,

00:05:53   that will take you to the screen.

00:05:55   - Anyways, like settings, your Apple ID,

00:05:57   view Apple ID from the pop-up,

00:05:59   and then once you're in view Apple ID,

00:06:00   you scroll to manage subscriptions.

00:06:01   Anyway, all this is saying I have lots of different ways

00:06:03   to watch stuff.

00:06:05   There's sort of a hierarchy of

00:06:07   how much time do you wanna spend looking for it?

00:06:10   Like a lot of the times I'll wanna watch a movie,

00:06:12   and sometimes I'll be feeling bold

00:06:15   and I'll speak into my terrible Apple TV remote

00:06:19   and ask to watch a movie and see like what service

00:06:21   it pops up, because it in theory knows

00:06:23   that I subscribe to Hulu and Netflix and Amazon Prime

00:06:25   and all these other things.

00:06:27   And I wanna see what it'll bring up.

00:06:28   If it's on Netflix, I'm like, oh great,

00:06:30   I'll just watch it, right?

00:06:32   But if we're in a hurry, like oh,

00:06:33   the kids wanna watch a movie,

00:06:34   or we're all sitting down as a family to watch a movie,

00:06:37   and I don't wanna deal with figuring out

00:06:39   where which of the umpteen services that I have

00:06:41   has that movie, like is it on HBO,

00:06:43   is it in the Showtime app, is it like,

00:06:44   I don't wanna deal with that at all,

00:06:46   I just go to iTunes and just buy the movie,

00:06:48   because it's like, it is the, it used to be in my mind,

00:06:51   the most reliable, the fastest,

00:06:53   and also the most expensive obviously way to get it,

00:06:55   because I have all these services I subscribe to,

00:06:57   if they have the movie for free,

00:06:58   why would I pay $12.99 to buy the movie,

00:07:00   or rent it depending on whether I think

00:07:02   I'm ever gonna wanna watch it again, right?

00:07:04   So in that situation, I was bringing my family,

00:07:09   my children up to pop culture snuff

00:07:11   so they don't end up like Margo,

00:07:13   and they hadn't seen the Terminator movies,

00:07:16   'cause Terminator 1, the first Terminator movie,

00:07:18   not titled Terminator 1, is rated R,

00:07:21   so I couldn't really show this to my kids

00:07:23   until they're older, right,

00:07:24   so my son is older than I am to see it now,

00:07:26   so I said we're gonna watch Terminator,

00:07:28   then we're gonna, I really just wanted him

00:07:29   to watch Terminator 2, which is not rated R,

00:07:31   but you can't watch Terminator 2

00:07:32   without watching the Terminator,

00:07:34   so I'm like, all right, I don't wanna deal with

00:07:35   finding where this movie is available,

00:07:37   it might be on one of my streaming services,

00:07:39   I don't know, let me just go to iTunes and buy it,

00:07:41   because I know, I instantly know how to do that,

00:07:45   I don't bother with any voice things,

00:07:46   just go to iTunes, type the term in,

00:07:48   you know, I can find it, and I'll just pay the money,

00:07:50   and we'll play immediately, and I won't have any problems,

00:07:52   and this is particularly true of last time,

00:07:53   so I'm looking for like, anime, or foreign movies,

00:07:56   or things with subtitles where I don't wanna deal with like,

00:07:59   is it gonna be the dub, are the subtitles

00:08:02   gonna be burned in in a weird font if I see it in streaming,

00:08:05   or even just regular movies, is it gonna be reformatted

00:08:08   on Amazon Prime, or it's like the weird unrated version,

00:08:11   like iTunes I feel like is the canonical,

00:08:13   there's a movie, you know it exists,

00:08:14   you just wanna see the movie the way you expect to see it,

00:08:16   so go to iTunes, and in the case of the Terminator,

00:08:19   we're watching it, and as we're watching the movie,

00:08:22   immediately I notice, but it just gets worse and worse

00:08:24   as we watch the movie, the audio sync is off,

00:08:26   the words, people's mouths, lips moving,

00:08:28   don't match the audio, at first I'm like,

00:08:30   boy, back in the 80s, they were pretty sloppy with the ADR,

00:08:33   but then I remember, no, it's not the ADR,

00:08:35   it's actually out of sync, and it's getting worse,

00:08:37   so I do all the things, you don't wanna like,

00:08:39   ruin the movie experience, like wait, I gotta pause,

00:08:41   I gotta fix anything, one time I tried,

00:08:44   during the movie I tried like pausing and reloading,

00:08:46   like when someone got up to go to the bathroom,

00:08:48   I tried pausing and then playing, it didn't work,

00:08:50   I killed the application, that didn't work,

00:08:52   and then they were back, so we just watched it

00:08:54   with out of sync audio, and I'm like, this is BS,

00:08:57   it was one of the few times I was thinking

00:08:59   I should ask for a refund.

00:09:00   - Wait, you watched an entire film,

00:09:03   even one you've seen before with out of sync audio?

00:09:05   - I've seen it many, many times before,

00:09:06   I mean, it wasn't that, I don't know if anyone else

00:09:09   in the room noticed it was out of sync, but I noticed.

00:09:12   - I cannot fathom John Siracusa watching

00:09:15   an entire two-ish hour movie.

00:09:18   - It's not a talky movie, first of all,

00:09:19   and second of all, it's worse to interrupt the movie,

00:09:22   like I'd gotten everyone together,

00:09:23   we're all gonna watch the movie,

00:09:24   the lights are off in the room,

00:09:25   like you can't kill that experience by saying,

00:09:27   I'm not gonna futz with my Apple TV for 20 minutes,

00:09:29   again, that's the reason I'm doing it on iTunes.

00:09:31   - If anyone can do that, it's John Siracusa

00:09:33   can kill that experience by futzing with the Apple TV.

00:09:36   - I would absolutely not do that,

00:09:37   I'm the one who doesn't want you to stop

00:09:38   in the middle of the movie, I want you to watch it

00:09:40   on an uninterrupted and have your full concentration, anyway.

00:09:43   And this is just blowing my mind, because it was like,

00:09:47   like I said, the most expensive way you can get this movie,

00:09:50   and I'm like, what could the problem possibly be?

00:09:51   I'm like, is it my AV setup?

00:09:53   I'm like, no, because I use this Apple TV

00:09:55   to watch a video all the time through the same receiver

00:09:57   and there's no problem with the audio sync.

00:10:00   I was starting to think that it had to be the file,

00:10:02   like that actually this is somehow got uploaded

00:10:05   to Apple servers with a file where the audio's not in sync.

00:10:07   So to test that, I downloaded the audio on my Mac

00:10:10   and tried playing it there, two things there.

00:10:12   One, I'm doing this on a 5K iMac,

00:10:14   which is not that old of a machine, right?

00:10:16   It's, I think it was, is it the current 5K iMac still?

00:10:19   Maybe it is, it's a 1080p movie,

00:10:22   and my 5K iMac could not play without dropping frames,

00:10:25   which I don't understand at all.

00:10:27   I tried it in iTunes itself, and then I tried it

00:10:29   in like the new crappy QuickTime player,

00:10:31   and both of them, they'd play it,

00:10:34   but occasionally it would drop frames.

00:10:35   But anyway, despite them dropping frames,

00:10:38   the audio was still in sync with the frames that were there.

00:10:40   So it's not the file, the audio is in sync in the file.

00:10:43   I tried rebooting the Apple TV.

00:10:45   I tried checking the audio and video settings

00:10:47   in the Apple TV.

00:10:47   I tried doing software updates in the Apple TV,

00:10:49   where it didn't need any, it was already up to date.

00:10:51   This is an Apple TV 4K, all on the latest version

00:10:54   of everything, playing an iTunes movie.

00:10:57   I tried it on multiple different dates.

00:10:58   Maybe it's just weird today,

00:10:59   maybe there's something else going on.

00:11:03   It played this movie with all the others out of sync,

00:11:04   and it got worse like farther into the movie it went.

00:11:07   So this is, A, it's making me think about

00:11:09   how I might try to get a refund,

00:11:10   although every time I think about it,

00:11:11   I'm like, I have no idea how to do that,

00:11:13   and it'll probably involve calling someone on the phone,

00:11:14   and it'll be a hassle.

00:11:16   Who the hell knows?

00:11:17   So now I have this cruddy copy of the Terminator

00:11:19   with the audio out of sync,

00:11:21   and now, next time I need to get a movie,

00:11:23   and think like what's the least problematic way to get it,

00:11:26   I don't know, maybe I'll just try to buy it

00:11:27   from Amazon or something.

00:11:28   I don't even know what my next in line is.

00:11:30   Terminator 2, by the way, didn't have this problem

00:11:32   on the Apple TV, because we watched Terminator 2

00:11:34   the next day, and I had already purchased both of them

00:11:37   ahead of time, so it wasn't like I had to reach,

00:11:39   I watched Terminator 2, the audio was in sync.

00:11:41   For the most part, there was a few seconds where I'm like,

00:11:43   wait a second, is it out of sync again?

00:11:45   I'm like, no, that was probably actually just bad ADR.

00:11:47   Anyway, this is really bothering me,

00:11:51   mostly because I don't know how to explain it,

00:11:52   but secondarily because now I don't really have a go-to

00:11:56   for you're in a hurry, you want the movie now.

00:11:59   I mean, do you think, does one bad occurrence here

00:12:03   ruin this whole service?

00:12:04   'Cause I too have had occasional problems

00:12:07   with iTunes-bought content, usually it's TV shows,

00:12:11   but they're very occasional.

00:12:12   The hit rate is very high as a percentage.

00:12:16   And so if you look at what else is out there,

00:12:19   I don't think any of us have more experience

00:12:22   with Amazon purchases for digital downloads

00:12:25   or anything like that, so we don't really know

00:12:27   if they're actually better.

00:12:28   I mean, in this case, this isn't a problem

00:12:30   where Apple, lol, web services, this is a problem

00:12:33   where the file itself was probably at fault,

00:12:36   so the file itself was probably messed up,

00:12:38   and what can you really do about that?

00:12:40   No service is gonna be impervious to content providers

00:12:45   uploading bad files.

00:12:47   - But the file wasn't messed up.

00:12:48   Like I said, the audio was in sync when I played it

00:12:50   on the Mac.

00:12:51   It dropped frames, but the audio was in sync.

00:12:52   Right, so I mean, there was some kind,

00:12:55   it's like a problem with playback,

00:12:56   and it's not 4K, I don't think.

00:13:00   My TV's not 4K anyway, but I don't understand

00:13:02   what its problem could have possibly been.

00:13:04   - Well, it could have been maybe it's like a bit rate thing.

00:13:06   Maybe it was encoded with, like it didn't cap the bit rate

00:13:09   in a way that your Mac, well, I was gonna say

00:13:12   that your Mac is powerful enough to keep up,

00:13:14   but not your Mac, per se.

00:13:16   One's Mac could be powerful enough to keep up

00:13:18   compared to an Apple TV.

00:13:20   In your case, your Apple TV is probably faster

00:13:22   than your Mac.

00:13:23   - I watched it on my iPad, too,

00:13:25   and also had audio sync problems then.

00:13:27   Not as bad as the Apple TV, but definitely noticeable.

00:13:29   So it is baffling.

00:13:30   So yeah, maybe I'll just, I don't know,

00:13:32   maybe I'll find a way to get a refund

00:13:33   and just continue to go back to it as my only choice,

00:13:38   but it's definitely weird, and there's no way

00:13:41   in the interface to complain about this.

00:13:43   I guess it's something they don't expect to happen.

00:13:44   Like "The Terminator" is a popular movie,

00:13:46   so I don't quite understand how this could happen

00:13:48   and them not know about it, but maybe because everyone

00:13:52   like me just gives up before they even start trying

00:13:54   to figure out how to tell them.

00:13:56   Hey, Apple, your copy of "Terminator" is messed up.

00:13:58   There, I told them.

00:13:59   (laughing)

00:14:00   File a bug.

00:14:01   (laughing)

00:14:02   - Why did you not try Plex?

00:14:04   Like, you know, one of the advantages of Plex

00:14:07   is that when you're Plex friends with other people,

00:14:09   as I know you are, other people might have the movie

00:14:12   you're looking for.

00:14:13   - That's like the least reliable way.

00:14:14   I gotta rely on someone else's server being up

00:14:16   and my bandwidth, their upload bandwidth being adequate

00:14:18   to keep the movie streaming and them not turning off

00:14:20   whatever computer they're running Plex on.

00:14:21   That's, I would never choose that for it's time

00:14:23   to see a movie right now and be guaranteed that it works.

00:14:26   - Really?

00:14:27   That's bananas to me because in my eyes,

00:14:30   that is the most reliable way because, you know,

00:14:32   I've never had an instance where one of my friends

00:14:35   was randomly turned off the computer I was using.

00:14:37   - I, the MyPlex server that you have access to

00:14:41   is on my wife's computer that she restarts all the time

00:14:44   for any reason she feels like it, so you can be

00:14:45   in the middle of a movie and it can restart.

00:14:47   So let me tell you, do not expect five nines

00:14:49   from MyPlex server.

00:14:50   (laughing)

00:14:51   - Well also, I mean, in my experience, you know,

00:14:54   Plex server files are often either files that fall

00:14:58   off of trucks or files that people have encoded themselves

00:15:01   with rips and everything and those, in my experience,

00:15:04   tend to be the least reliable in terms of audio sync

00:15:07   to video, like that actually is a very common problem.

00:15:11   - If people are bad at it, yeah, but my main thing is

00:15:13   it would be lower quality because it would probably

00:15:15   be re-encoded from something that was already

00:15:16   lost and encoded.

00:15:17   - Well even if that's true, at least, like,

00:15:19   maybe it's just my values, but I would much rather

00:15:22   have an SD video that is matched to the audio

00:15:25   than a 1080 video where the audio is, you know,

00:15:27   10, 15 seconds, well, they're milliseconds off.

00:15:29   - You know, you're overestimating the audio sync,

00:15:32   I'm talking, the audio drift I'm talking about here.

00:15:34   - Yeah, I shouldn't have said seconds, but yeah.

00:15:36   But you get my point, is that personally, for me,

00:15:38   and maybe you don't have to agree, but for me,

00:15:40   I would much rather have synced crummy video

00:15:43   than unsynced pretty video.

00:15:46   - I need to have it all.

00:15:47   Anyway, someone mentions the Movies Anywhere thing,

00:15:50   do you guys know about that?

00:15:51   - Yeah, if anybody out there doesn't know about this,

00:15:54   you need to know about this.

00:15:55   - Yeah, so it's some service that I think Disney ran

00:15:58   that somehow they got deals with all the other

00:15:59   streaming people where if you buy anything anywhere,

00:16:01   it can appear in Movies Anywhere and you can play

00:16:04   it back there, and I think it might be DRM-free

00:16:05   when you play it in that context.

00:16:07   - No, I doubt it's DRM-free, but so yeah, the point

00:16:09   is basically, they have deals with Amazon, iTunes,

00:16:13   whoever else, and including when you redeem those codes

00:16:16   that come with Blu-rays, and so you can buy a movie

00:16:19   on a Blu-ray, redeem the code at Movies Anywhere,

00:16:22   and then it shows up as a purchased movie on Apple's side

00:16:26   in your iTunes movie account if they have it.

00:16:29   It's crazy, I don't know how they rigged this deal up

00:16:31   with Apple, I don't know how they got Apple to agree to this

00:16:35   or anybody else for that matter, but yeah, basically,

00:16:37   almost every studio participates in this now,

00:16:39   and so you can buy, for me, I bought a bunch of Blu-rays

00:16:43   on Black Friday because they were all discounted

00:16:45   on various Black Friday sales, they were cheaper

00:16:46   than buying movies on iTunes and Amazon and stuff.

00:16:49   I bought a bunch of Blu-rays, I typed in the codes,

00:16:51   and I put the Blu-rays in the closet, and I'm probably,

00:16:55   I'm not sure if I'll ever watch them, but I have the codes,

00:16:57   and so now all those movies just showed up

00:16:58   in my iTunes account, it's great.

00:17:00   - Yeah, I always forget about that, I do have that app

00:17:03   installed and I do look at it, it's kind of cool

00:17:05   to see all your movies aggregated into a single place

00:17:08   and everything, and I do use it occasionally

00:17:09   to get file downloads for services that I traditionally

00:17:13   think of, although I think Amazon gives you

00:17:15   file downloads now, anyway, I always forget that it exists

00:17:18   when it comes time to watch a movie like this,

00:17:20   so I could've just bought it on iTunes, quit the Movies app,

00:17:23   and then gone to the Movies Anywhere thing

00:17:24   and see if I could play it there, although,

00:17:25   do they have an Apple TV app?

00:17:26   I have the app on my iPad where I watch a lot of

00:17:29   cruddy movies, but I assume they have

00:17:30   an Apple TV app somewhere.

00:17:31   - The actual movies anywhere, I'm not sure,

00:17:33   I've never looked 'cause I don't need to,

00:17:34   'cause everything that I put in there shows up

00:17:36   in my iTunes thing.

00:17:37   - Oh well, anyway, watching movies is hard.

00:17:40   - We are sponsored this week by IGG Software,

00:17:43   makers of Banktivity, which is an easy to use,

00:17:45   full featured personal finance management app

00:17:46   exclusively for Apple platforms.

00:17:49   Maybe you wanna keep track of what you spend your money on

00:17:50   and where your money comes from.

00:17:52   Yeah, you can use Numbers or Excel to do that,

00:17:54   but there's a better way.

00:17:55   Banktivity does those things, but oh so much more.

00:17:57   For starters, Banktivity connects to over 10,000 banks

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00:18:02   Banktivity can also track other kinds of accounts,

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00:18:06   Oh, you said you like budgets, Banktivity can do that too,

00:18:09   including customizable reports, planning,

00:18:11   bill tracking, and more.

00:18:12   But Casey, you say, I like to enter my expenditures

00:18:14   when they happen, I'm tired of having a pocket or wallet

00:18:16   full of crumpled receipts, no problem.

00:18:18   Banktivity's iOS apps will let you do precisely that

00:18:21   and more, but what if I want an at-a-glance picture

00:18:23   of my financial world while I'm out for a run?

00:18:25   Well, first of all, weird.

00:18:27   Second of all, there's even a watch app that you can use

00:18:29   to get a quick look at your budget

00:18:30   or see your account balances all on your wrist.

00:18:33   Casey, I'm interested, you say,

00:18:35   but I don't want some sort of abandoned software.

00:18:37   IGG and Banktivity are here for dark mode,

00:18:39   they were here for the 64-bit transition,

00:18:41   they were ready for the transition to Intel,

00:18:43   and that should tell you something.

00:18:45   To quote IGG, we are committed to macOS and iOS

00:18:48   and we will be there for whatever comes next.

00:18:49   Arm-based laptops, anybody?

00:18:51   Wink.

00:18:52   Here's the thing, late last year,

00:18:53   I was using some abandoned software

00:18:55   and resisted switching for the longest time.

00:18:58   Banktivity sucked in over a decade

00:19:00   of my personal transaction history, no problem,

00:19:02   and I was up and running in no time.

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00:19:34   Our thanks to Banktivity and IGG Software for sponsoring ATP.

00:19:38   (upbeat music)

00:19:41   All right, over the last, what is it?

00:19:43   48 hours or so, maybe a week or so,

00:19:45   Apple has brought something back from the dead.

00:19:47   We have iPhone XS and XR Smart Battery cases,

00:19:52   and even the XS Max gets a Smart Battery case now.

00:19:55   Smart Battery cases for everyone.

00:19:57   I never had one originally.

00:19:59   I was on the camp that it looked kind of silly

00:20:01   with the humpback on it.

00:20:03   These appear to be a little bit less silly looking to my eye

00:20:06   because the humpback is going all the way

00:20:09   to the bottom of the case rather than kind of being

00:20:11   a bump in the middle.

00:20:14   But they're $130 for the XS one.

00:20:18   Is the Max one more expensive?

00:20:20   I'm sure it is.

00:20:20   - I think they're all the same.

00:20:21   - Oh, they are all the same, you're right.

00:20:23   These, I guess, are pretty cool.

00:20:25   This is not something that I personally feel like

00:20:26   I need in my life, but they charge via Qi now,

00:20:29   which is really cool.

00:20:30   So the case will charge via Qi,

00:20:32   and then the case will charge your phone.

00:20:34   And from what I understand, they're really great.

00:20:35   Marco, you got one, didn't you?

00:20:38   - Not the new one, no, but we did have the old one,

00:20:40   Tiff used it on her iPhone 7, I think,

00:20:42   for almost the entire time that she had it.

00:20:44   I think you nailed it.

00:20:45   We're like, we all made fun of it when it came out

00:20:47   because it looked just ridiculous.

00:20:48   It was by far one of the ugliest looking Apple products

00:20:51   that they've ever released.

00:20:53   And over the coming weeks after it was released,

00:20:56   we came to learn, well, they did it that way

00:20:58   'cause it wouldn't block the antenna bands,

00:21:00   and every other case blocks the antenna bands

00:21:01   and everything.

00:21:02   And so there were some reasons why they made it so ugly.

00:21:06   And the shape of it had some practical upsides to it.

00:21:09   And then in use, it was actually kind of nice

00:21:11   because you could rest your pinky along the bottom edge

00:21:14   of that backpack that it was wearing.

00:21:15   And so it was a way to, you know,

00:21:18   if you look at pretty much any way

00:21:19   that people hold large phones in more easy ways

00:21:22   by sticking things to the back,

00:21:23   they all kind of rest in this principle

00:21:24   of it's easier to hold stuff near the middle

00:21:26   of the back of the phone than it is

00:21:27   to reach top and bottom edges.

00:21:29   And so you could kind of rest your pinky

00:21:30   on that little ledge and support the phone that way,

00:21:33   and it was easier to hold a bigger phone that way.

00:21:35   The new ones don't have that,

00:21:37   and honestly I consider that a slight progression

00:21:40   in that way 'cause it actually was really nice to hold that.

00:21:41   But otherwise, the new ones appear to have

00:21:45   similar general appeal in that they, you know,

00:21:49   they're kind of frumpy looking,

00:21:50   but they're providing excellent utility

00:21:53   if you need a battery case.

00:21:54   We currently don't have a need for battery cases,

00:21:59   but if we were to need one, I'd go right to that one

00:22:03   because when you compare it to other battery cases,

00:22:05   like it has the same advantages that the first one did.

00:22:08   First of all, it charges via lightning in.

00:22:10   This is very rare for peripherals,

00:22:13   and especially for battery cases.

00:22:14   Almost all of them require micro USB in to charge,

00:22:17   which now means you're carrying multiple types of cables

00:22:19   with you necessarily, whereas if it has lightning in,

00:22:22   you can just plug in however you normally charge your phone.

00:22:25   As you mentioned, Casey, this one also supports

00:22:26   wireless charging, which very few battery cases do.

00:22:29   So again, that's even better.

00:22:30   It's like however you charge your iPhone now,

00:22:32   you need to change nothing about that to charge this case.

00:22:35   And then my favorite thing about the smart battery cases

00:22:37   compared to other ones is other ones,

00:22:40   they kind of act like USB battery packs

00:22:43   in the sense that you have to turn them on,

00:22:46   and then when you turn them on, they activate

00:22:48   and become a power source for your phone.

00:22:50   Your phone thinks it's pulled into the wall

00:22:52   and pulls power until either it's full

00:22:54   or the case battery is depleted.

00:22:56   And there's a number of things about this

00:22:57   that Apple improves upon with theirs.

00:22:59   So first of all, there's no on/off switch.

00:23:01   You don't have to think about whether it's on or off.

00:23:03   You just charge through it when you have a chance,

00:23:05   and it charges your phone until it's empty.

00:23:09   So the phone stays at 100% until the battery case is empty,

00:23:12   and then the phone starts reading itself from there.

00:23:14   You can view the charge level in the batteries widget

00:23:17   on iOS, which again, other cases,

00:23:20   you're at best with cases you have a four LED

00:23:23   kind of dot situation, but that's usually

00:23:25   the most detail you'll get.

00:23:27   The other cases also have, because you have to

00:23:30   manually turn them on or off, it's kind of wasteful

00:23:33   if you turn them on and the phone fills up

00:23:36   and you don't turn them off.

00:23:37   Like it can slowly drain power in a weird, inefficient way.

00:23:40   You can accidentally leave it on when you don't

00:23:42   really need it to be there, like when you're not

00:23:44   even using it and that can slowly drain the power.

00:23:46   Or you can think you're charging up

00:23:48   and then it's actually off.

00:23:49   Like having to manage the power switch

00:23:51   on your battery case is annoying.

00:23:53   And so for Apple to remove that and add all these

00:23:56   smarts about how it charges it and where you can show

00:23:59   the battery info and everything and not having

00:24:01   to have your own separate type of cable,

00:24:03   it's a really convenient package.

00:24:04   Like I gotta say, it's very well done

00:24:06   and it's a decent capacity.

00:24:09   It's not like super, super high capacity.

00:24:11   If you need like maximum capacity, you wanna look

00:24:14   at other things besides this, but otherwise,

00:24:16   it's a really nice package.

00:24:17   Unfortunately, as usual, it's more expensive

00:24:19   than what it replaced by a good deal.

00:24:20   I think the old one was 100 bucks, I think.

00:24:23   So if this is 130, that's a big increase.

00:24:26   But it's typical of many modern Apple things,

00:24:29   which is it kinda hurts to eat the price,

00:24:32   but if you can get past that, it's a pretty good option.

00:24:35   - I think I find it so weird about this battery case

00:24:38   and has been weird about a couple things is the timing.

00:24:40   Like it seems to me that it would have been much better

00:24:43   to release the battery case at the same time

00:24:45   that you release the phone because that's when

00:24:47   there's gonna be a big rush of people

00:24:48   who are buying the phone because they want

00:24:51   the latest and greatest and they're the least

00:24:52   price sensitive people and when they buy it,

00:24:54   they're gonna buy accessories and they're gonna buy a case

00:24:56   and if the type of person who used a battery case before,

00:24:58   they might want a battery case again

00:25:00   and it's not available for months,

00:25:02   like that's just bad.

00:25:03   I mean, probably this is not their most important peripheral

00:25:05   so whatever.

00:25:06   Same thing with the XR with the clear case and everything.

00:25:09   It's better to have the peripherals available

00:25:12   when you launch the phones.

00:25:14   And of all the things that you can't get done,

00:25:16   I'm obviously getting the phones ready for sale

00:25:18   is much more important than getting these peripherals

00:25:20   ready for sale, but it's the type of thing

00:25:24   that seems odd that Apple has these weird misses

00:25:28   in timing on stuff like this.

00:25:30   Not that I'm saying they should delay the phone

00:25:31   or whatever, but cases.

00:25:33   It's not that, what is it that made this thing be delayed?

00:25:38   Is there something about this case?

00:25:39   Did they not have batteries because they had to use them all

00:25:41   on the phones?

00:25:42   I'm sure there's some action somewhere,

00:25:43   but it just seems weird to me that it would be better

00:25:48   if they could get their acts together and have launches

00:25:51   where something isn't delayed.

00:25:53   And the same thing with the 10 hour delay itself,

00:25:54   which obviously is more explicable because they,

00:25:56   maybe there's some conservation of parts

00:25:59   or manufacturing capacities for the big phone launches.

00:26:01   But here's hoping that someday soon we can actually have

00:26:04   a flagship product launch from Apple

00:26:07   where everything launches at the same time,

00:26:08   including all the peripherals,

00:26:09   and there's no weird manufacturing problems,

00:26:12   and there's no slow trickle.

00:26:15   I mean, this is after the holidays for crying out loud.

00:26:17   I don't understand it.

00:26:19   Oh, and as for the specific battery case,

00:26:21   the only thing looking at it,

00:26:23   and you can tell me, well, maybe it's not the same.

00:26:25   You can't tell me, Mark, because you had the one,

00:26:27   the one you had was for the seven?

00:26:30   Yeah, that's the only one that's ever existed before this.

00:26:32   Yeah, right.

00:26:33   I'm just trying to remember which phone it was on.

00:26:34   So the battery case, unlike the Apple leather case

00:26:38   and the Apple silicone case,

00:26:40   goes all the way around top and bottom.

00:26:42   And for a 10 style phone where you constantly swipe up

00:26:45   from the bottom, I don't like the idea of hitting the lip

00:26:48   on the case.

00:26:49   Now I can't tell from pictures whether the lip is big

00:26:51   or small or whether you notice it or whatever,

00:26:52   but I do, one of the things I like about Apple's cases,

00:26:56   the leather one and the silicone one,

00:26:57   is they don't even have anything down there.

00:26:58   So you have no chance of hitting a lip

00:27:00   when you do that very, very frequent gesture,

00:27:02   which is swipe out from bottom.

00:27:04   So if I go to an Apple store and this is on display,

00:27:07   I'll have to try it out.

00:27:08   But I think it looks better than the old one.

00:27:09   It's more elegant.

00:27:10   I think I remember defending the old one's looks

00:27:12   because it's like that Johnny Ive,

00:27:14   let's not hide the fact that there's something slapped

00:27:16   to the back of this phone.

00:27:17   Let's just, you know, let's embrace that and say,

00:27:19   guess what, it's a phone with the thing stuck on the back.

00:27:21   This one actually does less of that.

00:27:22   It's like, well, it is a phone with things stuck on the back,

00:27:24   but let's try to blend it in, you know,

00:27:27   to make it not quite as obvious,

00:27:29   like putting, you know, strategic makeup

00:27:31   on a very large nose.

00:27:32   But it looks nice.

00:27:34   And if I had to get a battery case,

00:27:36   I think I would also get this one.

00:27:37   But the things you said about capacity and price,

00:27:39   like the dollar per watt hour or whatever

00:27:43   is not good on this case, but that's Apple for you.

00:27:46   - No, and you know, like the reality is like,

00:27:48   if you need a battery case at all,

00:27:50   you're already like, you know, a subset of the population.

00:27:53   And then like, if you need a big, big, big battery case,

00:27:58   you know, those people exist.

00:27:59   There's plenty of them in absolute numbers,

00:28:01   but like that's such a smaller percentage of the population.

00:28:03   And like Apple's not gonna make a case

00:28:05   that is that big and heavy to have like a three times

00:28:09   your iPhone battery size battery in it.

00:28:11   Realistically, this is the most they're going to do,

00:28:12   and that's plenty for them, I think.

00:28:15   - So one interesting caveat about this case

00:28:17   that Renee Ritchie pointed out

00:28:19   and a couple other people did as well.

00:28:20   You see, look at this case, you're like,

00:28:21   oh, it's the iPhone XS smart battery case,

00:28:24   and they have the one for the Max,

00:28:25   and they have one for the XR, yada, yada.

00:28:27   What about the X?

00:28:27   They never had a smart battery case for the X,

00:28:29   but the XS is the same as the X.

00:28:31   Can I just take the XS smart battery case

00:28:34   and use it on the X?

00:28:34   Well, the XS is kind of sort of the same as the X,

00:28:38   like the same dimensions,

00:28:39   and the camera's in the same place and so on and so forth,

00:28:40   but there are things that are different about it.

00:28:42   And initially, I think people were like,

00:28:45   that you can't use it with the X

00:28:47   because of those differences,

00:28:48   because the speaker holes won't align or whatever.

00:28:50   But Renee Ritchie said,

00:28:51   yes, you can use the XS battery case with the iPhone X.

00:28:54   When you attach it to the iPhone X,

00:28:56   apparently you may get an incompatibility pop-up

00:28:58   that says you can't use this device

00:28:59   with this peripheral or whatever.

00:29:01   But if you just dismiss that dialogue,

00:29:03   apparently it charges.

00:29:04   - It's okay. - It charges fine.

00:29:06   - Yeah, and if it doesn't work,

00:29:08   they say if you just update iOS or reboot or whatever,

00:29:10   it'll work, you still have the problem

00:29:12   that it'll be covering up some of your speaker holes

00:29:14   and they won't be aligned,

00:29:15   so you might not get a good sound performance out of it.

00:29:17   But the speaker holes,

00:29:20   the XS reduced the amount of holes in the bottom

00:29:22   'cause it had to make room for that antenna band,

00:29:24   but the speaker holes that it replaced

00:29:26   were the ones that weren't there for any purpose anyway

00:29:29   other than visual symmetry.

00:29:30   The speakers on the bottom of all modern iPhones,

00:29:33   they look like there's two speakers at the bottom,

00:29:36   but only one of them is actually the speaker.

00:29:38   You can tell by playing something

00:29:39   and covering up each one with your thumb,

00:29:40   you can figure out which one is the actual speaker.

00:29:42   And so I think that the one that's the real speaker

00:29:47   hasn't changed between these two models.

00:29:49   All they did was reduce the number of holes

00:29:52   that were around what on the other side

00:29:53   is actually the microphone hole.

00:29:55   - Oh, so are you blocking the microphone?

00:29:57   Like I don't know which ones are blocked and which ones--

00:29:59   - Well, I'm guessing the location

00:30:01   of the microphone didn't change.

00:30:02   Like all they did, I think,

00:30:03   when they added the antenna band down there

00:30:05   and reduced the number of holes,

00:30:06   I think the holes they got rid of

00:30:07   were holes that weren't necessary anyway.

00:30:10   So I think that's why,

00:30:12   like Rene even said, he tried it on his X

00:30:14   and he couldn't tell a difference with the sound.

00:30:16   I think it's because

00:30:17   there really isn't actually a difference.

00:30:20   - It's kind of weird that Apple didn't just make a X case.

00:30:23   Like, I mean, I was speaking about timing,

00:30:25   how this didn't launch with the XS.

00:30:27   If they were gonna make a battery case

00:30:29   for the X-style phone,

00:30:30   why did they not do it for the entire year

00:30:32   that the X was the flagship phone?

00:30:34   I don't know, it's weird.

00:30:35   Don't they want people's money?

00:30:36   Don't they want this,

00:30:37   I mean, the margins must be great on these things.

00:30:40   Anyway, they look really cool.

00:30:41   Do they come in colors?

00:30:42   I just see it in black here.

00:30:43   - Just black and white.

00:30:44   - Black and white, yeah.

00:30:45   - And I will warn you,

00:30:46   if you've never had the white silicone case,

00:30:49   ours was white, that Tiff used,

00:30:50   and they do pick up lint and dirt

00:30:53   and discoloration like crazy.

00:30:55   Honestly, I still think the white

00:30:58   is the better looking one of the two,

00:31:00   but just don't put it in jeans pockets

00:31:02   and expect it to come out not covered in blue lint.

00:31:04   - If you're making a science fiction movie,

00:31:07   definitely get the white one,

00:31:08   but just make sure you get it in the first two takes

00:31:10   'cause it won't look that color for very long.

00:31:12   (laughing)

00:31:13   Doesn't it look like somebody from a sci-fi movie?

00:31:14   It looks totally like something from a '70s sci-fi movie

00:31:17   is a real device.

00:31:18   The white looks super, super futury.

00:31:21   - I can see that.

00:31:22   I will say too, so as I mentioned,

00:31:24   I don't usually use these kind of things.

00:31:27   I have in the past, I have owned them in the past

00:31:29   and have tried various things for various phones,

00:31:32   but I really have tried over time,

00:31:34   I've kind of learned my lesson a few times,

00:31:37   to stop buying things that depend on the exact size

00:31:40   and shape of a particular phone

00:31:42   because we've seen this business long enough by now

00:31:46   that we know that pretty much every new phone that we buy

00:31:51   is very likely to require all new accessories of that type,

00:31:55   which means that you can spend 130 bucks on this,

00:31:58   but in however many years it is between now

00:32:00   and when you buy your next phone,

00:32:01   which is probably not that big of a number,

00:32:04   that's all the use you're gonna have out of this.

00:32:06   At that point, this becomes useless

00:32:07   and you throw it away or whatever.

00:32:09   You're at that money and that's it.

00:32:12   If you're lucky, you give it away

00:32:13   to somebody who needs it, but whatever accessories you buy

00:32:15   that are cases or that are very tightly fitting things

00:32:19   or integrated things that depend on a phone's shape,

00:32:21   those have a very limited lifespan.

00:32:24   And so I have found over time

00:32:25   that I try to minimize that as much as possible.

00:32:27   I still usually will get whatever Apple's leather case is

00:32:30   for my phone at the time, but I try to keep it at about that

00:32:34   and hopefully nothing else.

00:32:35   Anything like docks or anything,

00:32:37   I try to get the ones that are size adjustable,

00:32:39   where they have little rails you can move back and forth

00:32:41   or whatever to accommodate different phone sizes

00:32:44   and that will usually last many years.

00:32:47   Or rely on things like wireless charging pads

00:32:49   instead of docks in certain cases.

00:32:52   Because it's so wasteful to get accessories like this

00:32:56   and then one to three years later,

00:32:59   that battery is still good and could still be useful,

00:33:02   but well, I got a new phone, it doesn't fit.

00:33:04   Oh well, give it away, throw it away, whatever.

00:33:07   So generally I find, for my external battery needs,

00:33:12   which are relatively infrequent,

00:33:16   I greatly prefer just standalone USB batteries

00:33:19   that I can plug into my phone with a cable

00:33:21   if I actually need that.

00:33:22   Because it's infrequent enough

00:33:24   that the inconvenience of that is greatly,

00:33:29   is much less significant than the wastefulness

00:33:31   of having to buy one of these things every year or two.

00:33:34   Now if you're somebody who actually needs

00:33:37   that extra battery life every day,

00:33:41   then this makes more sense.

00:33:42   Because then that calculus changes.

00:33:44   But if you only need it when you're on vacations

00:33:47   or at conferences or whatever,

00:33:48   I strongly suggest considering

00:33:50   just a regular USB battery pack,

00:33:51   which are so plentiful these days,

00:33:52   you probably already have one,

00:33:54   and just using a cable.

00:33:55   Because it isn't as convenient or integrated as this,

00:33:58   but it goes in and out of your pocket a lot easier

00:34:00   and it's so much less wasteful over time.

00:34:03   - I used to always get battery cases for my phones

00:34:05   the same way that you did.

00:34:07   And my math also changed,

00:34:09   and I've come to the same conclusion that you have Marco,

00:34:11   that I would use the batteries at conferences

00:34:14   and maybe a couple other times,

00:34:16   maybe if I were to go to a concert or something like that.

00:34:18   But generally speaking,

00:34:19   I never really need a battery for my phone.

00:34:22   And when I need one,

00:34:23   I can use past and probably future sponsor away.

00:34:27   My suitcase has a battery.

00:34:28   And I can just, and granted it's physically quite large

00:34:31   because it's designed to mostly live in the suitcase,

00:34:33   but it'll pop right out

00:34:34   and I can take that with me.

00:34:35   And I would much rather have one battery

00:34:38   that will last me across multiple generations of iPhone

00:34:42   than have to pay $130 or what have you

00:34:44   every single time the phone changes.

00:34:46   Even the speaker grills change, you know what I mean?

00:34:48   And so I completely agree with you Marco

00:34:51   that I personally think that a external battery pack

00:34:56   that is not strapped to your phone is much better.

00:35:00   - Also, we live in a multi-device world.

00:35:03   If you get a standalone USB battery thing,

00:35:07   you can charge your phone, yes.

00:35:08   Or if you're out somewhere and you need to charge

00:35:10   on your iPad or your Kindle or your Apple Watch

00:35:14   or whatever else, you can charge those also.

00:35:17   In fact, if you get a USB-C one, you can charge a MacBook.

00:35:20   It's better rather than having like 15 different batteries

00:35:23   for all these different devices or battery cases

00:35:26   or whatever else, just get one USB battery pack

00:35:30   that you will keep charged

00:35:31   and that you can keep in whatever bag you carry most often

00:35:34   and have it be as versatile as possible.

00:35:36   It's just nicer and easier in general to consolidate

00:35:40   and have fewer phone-specific accessories

00:35:44   and to have your, kind of like an Alton Brown kind of way,

00:35:47   to have more generalists

00:35:48   and fewer single-purpose batteries,

00:35:52   just get one or two general-purpose USB batteries

00:35:55   and be done with it.

00:35:56   - Unitasquer is the word you're looking for.

00:35:57   - Yes.

00:36:00   So talking about this, first, I think that most people

00:36:03   who are not tech enthusiasts keep their phones

00:36:05   for way longer than we think.

00:36:07   So maybe it's less of an issue for them.

00:36:08   Like I just think about the phones I see people using

00:36:10   and how old they are and how destroyed they all are

00:36:13   and just how, like they're not, like you see something

00:36:15   like that and you're like, it's kind of like me with my car.

00:36:17   It's like, they're not gonna get a new one

00:36:19   until that one like breaks or they can tell

00:36:22   it's about to break or like stops being functional

00:36:24   for the purpose, right?

00:36:25   That's kind of, you know, so maybe it makes more sense there.

00:36:27   But the other thing I made me think of is

00:36:29   the reason I've never bought a dock for any of my phones

00:36:32   or iPod touches or whatever, I always wonder like

00:36:34   if the dock or charging station or whatever market

00:36:39   is kind of like, people get excited about one particular one

00:36:42   that there's some Kickstarter for or something

00:36:44   or they see a cool one for sale and they buy it

00:36:46   and they love it and it's next to their bedside

00:36:48   or wherever it is and then it comes time

00:36:50   to get their new phone and what they want is to be like,

00:36:54   I wanna use it, you keep using my old dock

00:36:56   or just find whatever the updated version of this dock

00:36:59   is for the new phone and they find it,

00:37:00   oh, the company that made this dock is out of business

00:37:03   or this was just a random Kickstarter

00:37:04   or the company that makes this dock is still in business

00:37:07   and makes a dock for my new phone but it's totally different

00:37:09   because of the whims of fashion and they're like,

00:37:10   but I just want my old dock or like that dock

00:37:12   that you got involved in at Kickstarter, Marco,

00:37:14   where like the dock didn't ship

00:37:16   until they had changed to Lightning

00:37:17   so they had to give it this weird adapter.

00:37:19   Like docks are, not that they're expensive or anything

00:37:21   but especially if you like fall in love with one

00:37:23   and build your habits on it and it's like,

00:37:25   this is just what I want because it's beautiful

00:37:27   and it has my phone in the right position

00:37:28   and make some of them have a little place for your watch.

00:37:31   I think both of you have some weird thing

00:37:32   that like puts your phone in your watch and don't they?

00:37:34   - Studio Neat.

00:37:36   - Yeah, like you can make those better or worse,

00:37:39   like more flexible.

00:37:40   I think the ones you have are basically just like

00:37:42   a big expanse with a lightning port poking out for you

00:37:44   and you're like, well, as long as it's a lightning port,

00:37:47   this isn't trained to a particular width or thickness

00:37:50   but you know.

00:37:51   - Yeah, it's adjustable to different thicknesses.

00:37:52   - Yeah, that's why I've never been into those things

00:37:54   is I just feel like if I ever found one that I really liked,

00:37:58   I would just be disappointed.

00:38:00   Speaking of which, speaking of finding something

00:38:01   I really like and being disappointed,

00:38:03   my stupid phone pouch, same thing.

00:38:05   My phone pouch was looking a little rough.

00:38:07   Like you know, I'm using the one from my seven

00:38:10   which I thought, you know, even though the butt sticks

00:38:12   out of it, I'm like, well, and I like it, it's fine.

00:38:14   The butt sticks out but it's fine.

00:38:15   I'm like, well, this is looking kind of beat up.

00:38:17   I should order another one.

00:38:18   Guess what, they don't make it anymore.

00:38:20   Very sad.

00:38:21   - You could just go without a pouch.

00:38:23   - No, it's crazy talk.

00:38:24   (upbeat music)

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00:40:06   - It is the middle of January,

00:40:11   which means it's time for us to start thinking about 2019.

00:40:14   And this has been in the show notes

00:40:17   for a couple of weeks now,

00:40:18   but I was thinking a while back

00:40:21   that I feel like there are two interesting questions

00:40:25   that I'd like to hear your opinions on it.

00:40:27   I'd like to weigh in with my own opinion about Apple's 2019.

00:40:31   And it seems like more than I can remember

00:40:35   in the last several years,

00:40:37   everyone, myself included,

00:40:39   is kind of anticipating a very turbulent year for Apple.

00:40:44   And not in a bad way necessarily,

00:40:46   but just that there's probably gonna be

00:40:48   a lot going on this year.

00:40:49   And I got to thinking about,

00:40:52   what are some of the things that all of us feel

00:40:54   like we're seeing some smoke about?

00:40:57   Things like Marzipan,

00:40:58   which we've heard about already at WWDC last year.

00:41:01   And I don't recall what the formal statement from Apple was.

00:41:04   I don't think they ever committed to this year,

00:41:06   but it certainly stands to reason

00:41:08   that we should hear more about it this year,

00:41:09   even if it's not formally released.

00:41:12   There's been plenty of smoke around the idea

00:41:14   of ARM-based Macs.

00:41:17   And then as we discussed last episode,

00:41:19   supposedly there's a Mac Pro this year, maybe, possibly.

00:41:23   And additionally, this new Apple streaming service,

00:41:27   which I have unequivocally decided

00:41:28   will be called Apple Video,

00:41:30   you heard it here first.

00:41:31   - I actually agree.

00:41:33   - Yes, thank you.

00:41:34   That will be this year, I think.

00:41:37   And additionally, in the last week or two,

00:41:40   I think it was in the last few days actually,

00:41:41   we've heard rumblings of maybe a new iPad Mini

00:41:45   and maybe a new iPad Touch.

00:41:48   What?

00:41:49   That might be happening in 2019?

00:41:51   So given this list of potential events,

00:41:54   and maybe there's others that I didn't think of,

00:41:56   I have two questions to ask each of you.

00:41:58   And I can either start or finish, it doesn't matter.

00:42:01   But the two questions are,

00:42:02   what generally accepted story or event,

00:42:04   like the ones I just went through,

00:42:05   are you personally most interested in?

00:42:09   And then secondarily, what generally accepted story

00:42:12   or event do you think will affect Apple the most?

00:42:16   So you may not be into it at all.

00:42:18   So let's take an example,

00:42:19   like I don't care about the Mac Pro.

00:42:21   I actually don't think it'll affect Apple the most.

00:42:23   But you could make an argument that a new Mac Pro

00:42:25   could make a big difference to Apple.

00:42:26   So maybe I would choose that the Mac Pro

00:42:28   is the thing that will affect Apple the most,

00:42:29   even though I don't care.

00:42:31   So let's start with Marco.

00:42:33   What do you think you are most interested in?

00:42:36   And let's go through those for the three of us,

00:42:38   and then we'll come back around

00:42:39   and we'll talk about what'll affect Apple the most.

00:42:42   - So I have a hardware answer and a software answer here.

00:42:45   My hardware answer, so my theme here,

00:42:48   I kinda touched on it last week.

00:42:50   I think this is gonna be a big year for Macs

00:42:54   and for Pro Mac hardware, and maybe software too.

00:42:58   But I think this is a big year for the Mac

00:43:01   in a number of fronts.

00:43:03   We've heard either Apple promising or rumors rumbling

00:43:07   to the effect of big things happening,

00:43:10   at least the Mac Pro hardware,

00:43:13   the display that should be coming out,

00:43:15   the possible rumblings of MacBook Pro update maybe,

00:43:20   and even the remote possibility of ARM Macs,

00:43:23   which I think are possible this year.

00:43:25   I wouldn't say likely, but I think possible.

00:43:28   This could be a really interesting year

00:43:30   for the Mac in particular.

00:43:32   And they've kinda been leading up to this.

00:43:35   I think this is the year where a lot of questions

00:43:38   get resolved.

00:43:39   That's ultimately what I'm excited about,

00:43:41   is we have the giant question of the Mac Pro.

00:43:44   We have the giant question of what the heck

00:43:46   are they gonna do in the next MacBook Pro?

00:43:47   Are they gonna change the keyboard?

00:43:49   Are they gonna do anything else to address Pro needs

00:43:52   a little bit better or whatever else?

00:43:53   The Mac Pro, I think, is interesting

00:43:56   in John's Halo car sense, but it's not super important,

00:44:01   actually, in most ways.

00:44:04   So for the hardware pick, I actually am more interested,

00:44:08   even though this is sacrilege in the show,

00:44:10   I'm actually more interested to see how and if

00:44:13   they answer questions about the MacBook Pro.

00:44:15   That is the more interesting hardware thing to me.

00:44:18   And so I look forward to, I don't know that we're going

00:44:23   to get an answer to that this year,

00:44:25   but I think it's about time for that.

00:44:27   I think it's likely, I think we probably will.

00:44:29   And I just really wanna see what is the next MacBook Pro?

00:44:33   How do they take these three years of feedback

00:44:37   and make the next product out of that?

00:44:39   I really hope that that gets answered this year.

00:44:42   And I hope it's a satisfactory answer,

00:44:44   'cause it has seemed recently like they're in the weirdest

00:44:48   spot right now where, in something that I don't think

00:44:52   we expected, their desktops are actually

00:44:54   in pretty good shape right now.

00:44:56   (laughs)

00:44:57   This is a great time to be a Mac desktop user.

00:45:00   (laughs)

00:45:01   Like the iMac Pro is fantastic.

00:45:04   The new Mac Mini is fantastic.

00:45:06   Who would have thought that I would be saying

00:45:08   these things, right?

00:45:09   And the iMac is a little outdated.

00:45:11   So the iMac is not a great buy right now,

00:45:14   but it's still a great computer.

00:45:15   Like there's nothing wrong with it, it's just outdated.

00:45:18   So like the high end and like the specialized desktop lines

00:45:22   are great.

00:45:23   And the Mac Pro is probably gonna make that even better.

00:45:27   But because the iMac Pro is so great already,

00:45:30   and the Mac Mini is also so great and also solves

00:45:33   a lot of potential Mac Pro use cases,

00:45:36   there's actually, I think, less need than ever

00:45:38   for the official Mac Pro.

00:45:40   So the Mac Pro, I think, is,

00:45:42   I'm looking forward just to it finally,

00:45:44   and I might even buy one, but it's actually less burning

00:45:48   of a question for me because the laptop line is,

00:45:52   I think the MacBook Pro is still like partially on fire.

00:45:55   It's not quite as bad as before the keyboard membrane

00:45:57   version, but it's not great.

00:46:00   And so I really wanna see how that's resolved,

00:46:02   and I think we will actually have that answered this year.

00:46:05   And then on the software side, again,

00:46:08   this is some Mac excitement here.

00:46:11   I wanna see what the heck Marzipan ends up being like.

00:46:12   That's the big question to me.

00:46:14   Our Macs might also be a big thing,

00:46:16   and that would be potentially cool, new, interesting hardware

00:46:19   and some kind of software ramifications.

00:46:21   But like that's honestly not as interesting to me

00:46:24   as what the heck is going on with Marzipan.

00:46:27   Because I am a Mac user, I love the Mac,

00:46:31   I'm an iOS developer, I don't love developing for the Mac,

00:46:35   and I've done very little of it as a result,

00:46:38   I love developing for iOS.

00:46:40   I'm also, as a Mac user, I've been scared about

00:46:45   the clear slowdown in the development of new,

00:46:48   good Mac software over the last decade or so.

00:46:52   So like the Mac has all these unanswered questions

00:46:55   going on around it, and I really do think 2019

00:46:59   will be the year that a lot of these questions get answered.

00:47:02   And I'm just super excited about that.

00:47:05   - Jon.

00:47:06   - We're doing it one question at a time?

00:47:08   Oh, this is too easy for me.

00:47:09   I'm obviously most interested in the Mac Pro,

00:47:11   like for many reasons, you've all heard all my reasons

00:47:15   over many years, yeah.

00:47:16   I need a new computer, I want it to be a Mac Pro

00:47:18   style computer, so they're gonna make one

00:47:20   that is all where all my interest is.

00:47:22   And I actually am secondarily, even though I hate laptops,

00:47:25   very interested in laptops just because I'm so angry

00:47:27   about this three or four year run of bad laptops.

00:47:31   And I really, because I know they will make a new laptop

00:47:35   and because there is less flexibility,

00:47:38   like the Mac Pro could be anything,

00:47:39   and it could be a weird pyramid-shaped floating thing,

00:47:42   who knows how, but a laptop is gonna be a laptop

00:47:44   and I just wanna see it have a decent keyboard

00:47:46   and maybe have some more ports on it, and I'm just,

00:47:49   but I hate laptops, so I'm not interested in that,

00:47:51   I just, in an academic sense.

00:47:53   And in kind of a Apple, get your stuff together kind of,

00:47:58   it's the part of the Mac business where they have screwed up

00:48:03   the worst and so they need to,

00:48:05   where they've screwed up the worst

00:48:06   and haven't announced the fix.

00:48:08   They screwed up the worst and probably in the Mac Pro,

00:48:11   but they've announced, they've said all the right things

00:48:13   about that, whereas they're not saying anything

00:48:15   about the MacBooks other than like, maybe at best,

00:48:18   like stay tuned or whatever, like they haven't said--

00:48:22   - They haven't even said that.

00:48:23   - Yeah, well, they don't have to, like we know that,

00:48:25   like we're gonna come up with a new laptop, yeah, we know.

00:48:27   We know, you're gonna come up with a new laptop eventually.

00:48:30   They don't have to announce that, it's not like the Mac Pro

00:48:32   where we question whether they're gonna make another one,

00:48:34   but about it, they have said nothing,

00:48:35   and they haven't had any sort of like, you know, round table,

00:48:38   you know, where they talk about the laptops and say,

00:48:42   we hear you about the keyboard, the next one will have

00:48:44   a better keyboard and more ports.

00:48:46   They have not said that, so that's my second place,

00:48:49   that's my honorable mention.

00:48:50   - Well, also like, as far as the Mac goes,

00:48:53   like the Mac Pro doesn't affect that many people.

00:48:56   Anything that happens to the laptops,

00:48:58   like the laptops are the Mac, like they are by far

00:49:01   the biggest sellers, like, you know,

00:49:03   relatively nobody buys desktops.

00:49:05   Like, the laptops are the line, and so when the laptops

00:49:09   have a problem, that's a way bigger impact on the Mac

00:49:12   in general than if the desktops have a problem.

00:49:15   - Yeah, they screwed up the Mac Pro the worst,

00:49:17   but even a much smaller screw up on the Macs

00:49:21   that they actually sell is a bigger deal, yeah.

00:49:23   - Yeah, for me, I don't know if it's going to happen

00:49:26   in 2019, but the thought of ARM Macs, I think,

00:49:30   is the most interesting.

00:49:32   I am hard, it is hard for me to argue against

00:49:36   the MacBook Pros, and if there's something different

00:49:38   happening there, because I think, Marco,

00:49:40   you make a very compelling case,

00:49:42   but in terms of just interest, and what just peaks

00:49:45   my interest the most, I think it's ARM Macs,

00:49:47   and I'm not necessarily predicting it's going to happen

00:49:50   this year, but there's enough smoke around this fire

00:49:52   that it's a possibility, and I just think an ARM Mac

00:49:55   would be fascinating, both in terms of how do they manage

00:49:57   the hardware transition, but also how do they manage

00:49:59   the software transition, and does it look like, you know,

00:50:02   the transition from PowerPC to Intel,

00:50:04   or is it something totally different?

00:50:05   Is Marzipan really kind of a Trojan horse to get ARM Macs

00:50:09   to be a thing, I don't know, but I think for the one

00:50:13   that I'm most interested in, it's gotta be ARM Macs,

00:50:16   because that's kind of all-encompassing,

00:50:18   and would mark a pretty dramatic change in direction

00:50:21   for the Mac, so that's what I'm most interested in.

00:50:23   Now, Marco, tell me, of all the things you've gone over,

00:50:27   what do you think will affect Apple the most?

00:50:30   - I don't have as good of an answer for this one.

00:50:33   I mean, if you go, like, you know, strictly speaking,

00:50:35   what will affect them the most, I think, you know,

00:50:38   whatever the iPhone is this fall, like, that's,

00:50:40   but that's kind of a boring answer.

00:50:43   In a larger way, they're pushing into services,

00:50:47   and that does weird things to their incentives.

00:50:50   If you look at iCloud storage, you know,

00:50:52   the user experience of using a phone without photo backup,

00:50:56   without enough space for all your photos to do full-blown,

00:51:00   like, you know, iCloud photo library and iPhone backup,

00:51:03   it's a miserable experience without that,

00:51:05   and people get these pop-ups saying you're out

00:51:06   of storage space, and you know what those people don't do?

00:51:10   They don't go sign up for plans.

00:51:11   That's not how they do it.

00:51:13   Instead, they just dismiss those boxes,

00:51:15   and they think their phone is annoying,

00:51:17   and eventually their phone breaks or gets lost,

00:51:19   and they lose all the pictures of their kid

00:51:20   for the last three years.

00:51:22   Like, that's not a great way to do these things,

00:51:25   and it does leave open competitive holes.

00:51:28   Like, that's why you see, like, the Google ads

00:51:29   that poke fun at it and say, you know,

00:51:31   buy our phone, you won't have this problem.

00:51:33   That's a pretty compelling sales pitch.

00:51:34   So I think what has a non-trivial chance of happening

00:51:40   is what a couple of our podcast friends

00:51:42   have also been speculating about is,

00:51:44   I think there might actually end up being

00:51:46   some kind of expansion of one of the Apple services,

00:51:50   probably, what's the iPhone Care thing

00:51:53   where you get a new phone every year?

00:51:54   Upgrade program.

00:51:55   I'm guessing they expand one of their subscription offerings,

00:51:58   probably the upgrade program, into including, you know,

00:52:02   an iPhone every two years, whatever it is,

00:52:05   and so an iPhone every X years, and also iCloud storage,

00:52:10   and also Apple Music and Apple Video.

00:52:13   To have one subscription that they can kind of,

00:52:16   if they have this, this solves a number of problems.

00:52:19   So first of all, you know, and you can look at Amazon Prime

00:52:22   as one of the reasons of why, like,

00:52:25   why this is so compelling for the business, too.

00:52:29   If you have a service that you want a bunch of people

00:52:31   to sign up for, but they aren't,

00:52:34   you bundle it with something that they are gonna pay for.

00:52:37   Right?

00:52:38   So here's what Apple knows.

00:52:40   Everyone wants to buy iPhones.

00:52:41   Yes, even now after this disappointing quarter,

00:52:43   everyone still wants to buy iPhones, right?

00:52:46   And everyone doesn't wanna pay for Apple Music

00:52:48   or Apple Video separately, and everyone sure as hell

00:52:50   does not wanna pay for their photo storage.

00:52:53   So what Apple can, oh, and they already did this

00:52:55   to some degree with Apple Care.

00:52:58   The iPhone upgrade program includes Apple Care.

00:53:01   And you still pay for it, like, it's just the cost

00:53:03   of the phone plus Apple Care amortized over,

00:53:05   you know, 24 months or whatever it is.

00:53:06   Like, you're not saving money,

00:53:08   or you're saving some small, trivial amount of money.

00:53:11   But if you sign up for that, you get Apple Care, too.

00:53:14   Apple gets the money for Apple Care, too.

00:53:16   So they automatically tie Apple Care to the phone sales.

00:53:19   So if they can make an even more compelling package there

00:53:23   that includes all these other services,

00:53:25   even at some basic levels, then they can prevent people

00:53:30   from not getting them when they get their phone

00:53:32   through this program.

00:53:33   So they can bundle in, and think about everything this does.

00:53:37   This, first of all, gets more sales to Apple stores

00:53:39   instead of carrier stores, because the Apple Store version

00:53:42   of the description is more valuable.

00:53:45   It gets more people to have a better experience

00:53:47   and better data safety, 'cause they actually have

00:53:48   their phone fully backed up and all their photos backed up.

00:53:51   And Apple still gets the money for all these services.

00:53:53   And, you know, if they started out with Apple Music,

00:53:55   and then later on they add Apple Video,

00:53:57   or even if they do it up front,

00:53:59   that gets more people into those services.

00:54:01   And then that makes those services more valuable

00:54:04   and makes people more likely to stick with them,

00:54:06   because if you are buying the iPhone upgrade program package

00:54:10   anyway, and it comes with a music service,

00:54:14   how likely are you to use Spotify after that?

00:54:17   If it comes with a video service that you're already

00:54:20   paying for and have anyway, are you really gonna also

00:54:23   get HBO Now or Netflix?

00:54:24   Maybe, you know, some people won't,

00:54:26   because they'll already be paying for this.

00:54:28   This is what happens with Amazon Prime.

00:54:29   This is why Prime is so big for Amazon.

00:54:31   It's like people all bought it for the fast shipping,

00:54:34   and Amazon's been shoving all this other stuff into it.

00:54:36   And people now, like now they have this huge install base

00:54:40   for their crappy video service,

00:54:42   because everyone kind of had it, quote, for free anyway

00:54:45   with the shipping program.

00:54:47   And now they have this massive video service as a result.

00:54:49   So like, there's a lot of reasons, I think,

00:54:51   for Apple to do a large bundle subscription.

00:54:55   By the way, it also fixes iPhone sales,

00:54:58   because it makes people more predictably upgrade

00:55:02   no matter what phone they release.

00:55:04   So it solves a lot of problems, it really does,

00:55:07   if they do something like this.

00:55:09   I don't think we've heard anything that suggests

00:55:11   that they are doing something like this,

00:55:13   but I think they should, and if they did this,

00:55:16   I think that would have the biggest effect on Apple.

00:55:20   - Yeah, I think it's hard not to imagine Apple

00:55:23   wanting to do a kind of get all the Apple things service.

00:55:27   You know, it seems like such an obvious answer.

00:55:31   - Well, not all the things, 'cause like,

00:55:33   what they don't wanna do is lose like add-on sales,

00:55:38   attachment sales, upgrade sales,

00:55:39   like they're not gonna give you everything,

00:55:42   but they should give you like a baseline level

00:55:44   of all these things.

00:55:45   So like, services that only really have a fixed price,

00:55:48   where you get everything for that fixed price,

00:55:50   like Apple Music, that makes sense.

00:55:52   The iPhone plan, I wouldn't expect that to be like

00:55:55   the two terabyte plan, I would expect that, you know,

00:55:58   whatever like the base one is, like is it 100 gigs

00:56:00   or something like that, whatever the base one is,

00:56:02   that would be the one that's probably included,

00:56:03   and then if you want a bigger one,

00:56:04   you pay a little bit more per month.

00:56:06   And I wouldn't, and I think too, like the hardware,

00:56:08   like, you know, you can, same thing with upgrade program,

00:56:12   like you don't get the best iPhone for the base price,

00:56:15   your price varies depending on the iPhone you choose, right,

00:56:18   and how expensive that is.

00:56:20   So I think it would be like that, you know,

00:56:21   but it's still, you're still getting a lot for one price

00:56:25   that you just build into your budget, and it just,

00:56:28   oh yeah, I pay, you know, 60 bucks a month for my iPhone

00:56:32   and the things around it, or you know, whatever the cost is.

00:56:35   - Yeah.

00:56:36   John, what'll affect Apple the most?

00:56:39   - I'm gonna actually take the boring answer,

00:56:40   because that's probably the actual answer,

00:56:43   which is the, what the new iPhone is,

00:56:44   and the main reason it's a big deal in the upcoming year

00:56:48   is 'cause we just, we're just coming off this, you know,

00:56:50   this change in guidance about earnings,

00:56:52   and then we're gonna see the,

00:56:53   we're gonna get the second impact of that story

00:56:55   when the actual earnings come out,

00:56:57   the ones they warned us about, right,

00:56:58   even though it's the same story, right,

00:57:00   unless there's some dramatic difference,

00:57:01   like oh, we warned you, but it turns out

00:57:03   everything was great after all.

00:57:04   It's probably not gonna be, you know,

00:57:05   they warned us, I mean, it's gonna be bad, right.

00:57:07   So this next phone is super important,

00:57:10   and the main reason I've been thinking about this phone

00:57:12   is, well, two reasons.

00:57:14   One, like, we talked many reasons about

00:57:17   why phone sales might be down

00:57:19   and all sorts of the China issues or whatever,

00:57:20   but there are other ancillary things

00:57:22   in addition to like the battery replacement program,

00:57:23   and one of the things in that giant bucket

00:57:25   of things that probably didn't help phone sales

00:57:27   is the fact that the whole phone line changed over

00:57:30   to the 10 style, and some people may be wary about that

00:57:33   because it's not what they're used to.

00:57:34   Like, we all did that transition already,

00:57:36   and we're fine with it, but we're early adopters.

00:57:38   Everyone else may be less so.

00:57:39   The next one of those that's coming along,

00:57:41   well, first of all, presumably that's gonna continue,

00:57:42   and you know, I don't think the home button's coming back,

00:57:46   so the new ones are all gonna be like that,

00:57:48   and now there's the rumor of USBC floating around again.

00:57:52   We talked about this a couple years ago.

00:57:54   We'll continue to talk about it until they do it

00:57:56   or until they lose the connectors entirely.

00:57:59   If they did that this year, like this is kind of,

00:58:01   it's not a make or break phone,

00:58:02   but it's a more important phone than normal

00:58:04   because it may be a new and performed factor,

00:58:06   so there's a lot of question marks around that.

00:58:08   It may have a new connector,

00:58:09   and it's kind of important for this phone to do better.

00:58:14   To be like, they need, the story for 2019 needs to be better

00:58:19   than the story we're about to have for their earnings

00:58:21   on the XS and the XR and everything.

00:58:24   However things worked out and whoever's fault it is

00:58:26   or whatever, the pressure is on,

00:58:29   and so I think because the phone is most of their money

00:58:32   and it's their flagship product,

00:58:33   and this is a very important year,

00:58:35   and it's a year when potentially many things

00:58:37   could be changing, that's going to affect them the most,

00:58:42   but that is the boring answer, but I think it's the answer,

00:58:44   but I do wanna talk about the sort of prime type service

00:58:49   that Marco was talking about that has been discussed

00:58:51   in the Apple nerd community for a while now.

00:58:54   I keep thinking of it as Apple One

00:58:55   because Google of course calls their storage thing Google One

00:58:58   which is a terrible name for a storage service,

00:59:00   but Apple One is not what they'll call it

00:59:02   because that's too highfalutin of a name.

00:59:05   I don't know what they'll come up with,

00:59:06   but the thing that I have my head scratching

00:59:10   about this Apple plan,

00:59:12   and it has nothing to do with what Apple will do

00:59:15   'cause they may do something very much

00:59:18   like what Marco described,

00:59:18   but what I would suggest to Apple that they do

00:59:22   in this type of strategy,

00:59:23   that you're gonna have one subscription thing,

00:59:25   to tell them I need to figure out what the tractor is,

00:59:29   so Marco mentioned like the fast shipping

00:59:31   in Amazon Prime, right?

00:59:32   That's why everyone got Prime.

00:59:34   I don't even know if it had any benefits beyond that

00:59:35   in the beginning, but--

00:59:36   - It didn't.

00:59:37   - Lots of people order stuff from Amazon,

00:59:38   and even today, the generation of people

00:59:43   when Prime was introduced who were ordering things online

00:59:45   were still the generation where it's like the

00:59:49   who buys batteries, old people, Seinfeld sketch,

00:59:51   where shipping seemed like an affront.

00:59:53   Like I want stuff, and I don't wanna leave my house.

00:59:56   I don't wanna have to pay extra money for it to come to me,

00:59:59   and so just, it's not even the amount of money.

01:00:02   It's just that it seems like,

01:00:03   especially for small purchases

01:00:05   where the shipping becomes a large portion of the thing,

01:00:07   you're like, I could go to the store,

01:00:10   but I don't wanna get out of my pajamas,

01:00:12   but I don't wanna pay shipping.

01:00:14   There's a huge psychological draw of

01:00:16   I would love to buy everything I can on Amazon,

01:00:18   but I just hate the idea of shipping.

01:00:20   Maybe I can afford shipping.

01:00:21   Maybe it's not even the money.

01:00:22   It's just the idea of shipping.

01:00:24   That was a tremendous tractor

01:00:26   onto which they could attach all this crap, right?

01:00:28   And I actually think Amazon's video services is not that bad

01:00:31   and they have some good original content.

01:00:32   Music service is less appealing, but anyway,

01:00:35   that was an incredibly powerful tractor.

01:00:38   It still is probably the reason most people buy Prime,

01:00:41   because it just feels good not to have to pay shipping.

01:00:44   I don't think people even end up doing the math, right?

01:00:46   And I don't even think it sells mostly

01:00:48   to people who can't afford it.

01:00:49   In fact, I think that Prime probably sells the most

01:00:51   for the people who can most afford the shipping, right?

01:00:53   It's people who are just like,

01:00:54   I just wanna make shipping go away,

01:00:55   'cause I don't like that feeling, right?

01:00:57   I don't know what the tractor is for Apple One type service,

01:01:02   unless they do what they have heretofore not done,

01:01:04   which is, you know, I'm gonna suggest a tractor,

01:01:07   but before I suggest one, can you guys think of,

01:01:09   what's the tractor in an Apple One all-encompassing?

01:01:13   - It's the iPhone.

01:01:14   - Yeah, absolutely.

01:01:15   But what about the iPhone?

01:01:17   - It's getting an iPhone.

01:01:18   - You can get an iPhone now without an Apple One.

01:01:21   - Yeah, or you can spend,

01:01:22   or you can get this wonderful monthly upgrade program

01:01:25   where you don't have to spend $1,100 up front.

01:01:27   You can spend the whatever, 40, 50, 60 bucks a month

01:01:30   on it instead, and then you don't have to think about it.

01:01:33   And it comes with Apple Care.

01:01:34   - But you can do that now.

01:01:35   - Right, and so that's why I think,

01:01:37   what I'm suggesting is they basically do an expansion

01:01:40   of that where they just throw more stuff into that plan.

01:01:44   - Yeah, but they don't have to charge more money

01:01:45   if they throw more stuff into that plan.

01:01:47   - Sure they would, but I think that is the draw,

01:01:50   is like for 40 bucks a month, you can get this phone,

01:01:54   or for 50 or 60 bucks a month, you can get everything.

01:01:59   And the Amazon Prime trick to this

01:02:02   is they don't even make it an option.

01:02:03   I mean, they don't even give you a choice.

01:02:04   There is no shipping only Amazon Prime service,

01:02:07   because if they offered one, a lot fewer people

01:02:09   would get all the other crap that comes with it.

01:02:11   I know I wouldn't.

01:02:13   And so, if Apple really wants to push people into this,

01:02:17   what they would do is only offer this plan

01:02:20   that includes everything.

01:02:21   I don't know if they would go that far,

01:02:23   at least maybe not at first, but they could really

01:02:27   just do the upgrade program, add 10 or 20 bucks a month

01:02:30   to it, and have that include Apple Music and Video

01:02:34   and iCloud Storage, and that would be pretty awesome.

01:02:37   - So here's what I think they have to use as their tractor.

01:02:40   Like, you're right that the iPhone is the thing

01:02:42   that has the most draw, but I think for any service

01:02:45   like this to work, they need to do something

01:02:47   like what I just described with Amazon,

01:02:50   where just the idea of shipping,

01:02:53   is making that go away is the thing.

01:02:55   Now, there's nothing really like that in the Apple world,

01:02:59   except for maybe storage, which I'll get to in a second,

01:03:01   but I think the best tractor for this is for Apple

01:03:04   to give up on what they have traditionally done,

01:03:08   which is all their sort of financing,

01:03:10   pay over time, layaway, loan type things,

01:03:14   all of them have either been the same cost

01:03:17   as buying it up front or more expensive.

01:03:19   I think for Apple One to work, the draw has to be

01:03:22   get an iPhone for less money than you could get one

01:03:25   for otherwise, not a lot less money.

01:03:27   In fact, so little less money

01:03:28   that it practically doesn't matter,

01:03:30   but the draw is not that you can get an iPhone

01:03:33   and not that you can get an iPhone by paying monthly

01:03:35   instead of paying all at once,

01:03:35   but that you can get an iPhone for less.

01:03:38   And it doesn't even matter how much less it is,

01:03:39   it could be like $1 less,

01:03:40   as long as you get people talking about the idea like,

01:03:42   oh, if you wanted to get an iPhone,

01:03:43   you got to do the Apple One plan

01:03:45   'cause you can get it for less money.

01:03:46   How does Apple make money on that type of thing?

01:03:48   Well, the Apple One plan altogether,

01:03:52   you're not just paying for the phone,

01:03:54   you're paying for other benefits as well.

01:03:56   So they say you should get that plan

01:03:57   because it gives you the Apple Video service,

01:04:00   Apple Music, more iCloud storage, so on and so forth,

01:04:03   all of which you pay for it,

01:04:04   again, at some potentially reduced rate

01:04:06   than if you bought them separately.

01:04:07   But the main point is, but if you buy all that stuff,

01:04:10   you get the iPhone for less money.

01:04:13   That's all it has to be,

01:04:14   is it has to be the program that you get the reputation for,

01:04:17   the cheapest way to get an iPhone is like this.

01:04:19   And they're like, well, it's not actually cheaper

01:04:21   because you're paying for a bunch of other stuff

01:04:22   and what if I don't want Apple Music?

01:04:24   It's like, yeah, but that's like an extra five or $10

01:04:27   and you might've bought that anyway.

01:04:28   In fact, that stuff is cheaper too,

01:04:29   but the point is you get the iPhone for less money.

01:04:33   And that's the only tractor I can think of.

01:04:34   And the thing that bothers me about their services thing is

01:04:37   the tractor for Netflix is original programming.

01:04:41   They're getting into this realm with the Apple Video service

01:04:45   where they have to, it's like I said, I think last show,

01:04:49   it's like Pixar.

01:04:50   It becomes like a hit-based business

01:04:52   where you're making content that has to be good,

01:04:54   kind of like the products.

01:04:55   They have to make phones that are good too, right?

01:04:57   But the phone is their strongest pull,

01:05:01   but in Netflix, they don't have a phone.

01:05:03   They have to make good shows that you wanna watch

01:05:06   and that's all they can do.

01:05:07   So I do wonder about the Apple Video service.

01:05:09   Like as a weird attachment thing

01:05:12   that you put onto the tractor of getting an iPhone

01:05:15   for a dollar less that tricks people

01:05:16   into buying more stuff from you

01:05:18   because they're in their mind,

01:05:19   it feels good to get a quote unquote,

01:05:21   get a deal on an iPhone.

01:05:23   The Video service is like,

01:05:25   oh, and they give you this Video service.

01:05:26   Like it has to have some appealing value.

01:05:28   So they do need also to have like a hit show or something.

01:05:32   Music doesn't help

01:05:33   because everyone's got all the same music at this point.

01:05:34   So I don't think they can differentiate that on that.

01:05:37   But to tell someone, yeah,

01:05:39   and you also have to pay this extra money,

01:05:41   the two little mini tractors they have alongside

01:05:44   are never get that stupid dialogue

01:05:45   that your phone is full,

01:05:47   which means they would have to give people

01:05:49   what we've always talked about.

01:05:50   Like just, you should give people as much storage

01:05:52   as the phones they buy can hold, right?

01:05:55   I think that's what they have to do

01:05:56   because the value of getting more storage

01:05:58   is not getting more storage.

01:06:00   It's not having to worry about storage anymore.

01:06:02   So if you give them 100 gigs instead of five gigs

01:06:04   and they still run out of space,

01:06:05   they still hate you for it.

01:06:06   You have to say, get this

01:06:08   and you won't get the dialogue ever again.

01:06:10   So that's a hurdle they have to overcome.

01:06:11   And the second thing is the Video service has zero value

01:06:13   unless there's one show that people talk about

01:06:15   that you're interested in on their service.

01:06:18   So that's a big ask.

01:06:20   Cell phones for slightly less,

01:06:22   may give them storage,

01:06:24   they don't have to worry about storage anymore

01:06:25   and have at least one or two good shows

01:06:27   on Apple Video to get people talking about it.

01:06:29   That is a plan that you could get more people into.

01:06:31   I wouldn't include AppleCare

01:06:32   and I wouldn't include like get the upgrade

01:06:34   to whole type thing

01:06:35   because I think that's asking for too much.

01:06:37   Like you have to keep this bill down to a reasonable rate.

01:06:39   Prime is like what, $90 a year?

01:06:41   And you're talking about 60, 70, $80 a month?

01:06:44   That's not a mass market program.

01:06:45   So that's my advice to Apple

01:06:48   on any sort of one purchase program is,

01:06:51   eliminate things,

01:06:52   eliminate concerns entirely when it comes to the storage

01:06:55   and when it comes to like the phone and everything.

01:06:57   Have the tractor be getting an iPhone for cheaper

01:06:59   and you've got to make one or two good shows.

01:07:03   And that's a hell of a bill to fill in.

01:07:06   I don't think actually that's all coming in 2019

01:07:08   which is why I still listed the iPhone.

01:07:10   And even if they did all that in 2019,

01:07:11   the iPhone would still affect them the most

01:07:12   because in the first year you'd launch a thing,

01:07:15   who knows who even is gonna sign up for it.

01:07:17   So long-term, that may affect Apple's trajectory the most

01:07:20   but in 2019 itself, it's still the boring old iPhone.

01:07:24   - I understand what you're saying

01:07:25   about this whole tractor thing.

01:07:27   And yeah, the obvious answer is the iPhone,

01:07:30   but I don't know.

01:07:31   I feel like there's a really clear marketing angle

01:07:35   where Apple says, look,

01:07:36   you wanna have an iPhone every year.

01:07:39   You don't wanna have to worry about storage.

01:07:42   You don't wanna have to worry

01:07:43   about your photos being backed up.

01:07:44   You don't wanna have to worry

01:07:45   about where you're getting your music.

01:07:46   And you don't have to worry

01:07:47   about where you're getting your video either.

01:07:49   And so with this one monthly fee,

01:07:52   you will get a phone once a year.

01:07:55   You will get all the music in the world.

01:07:57   You will get all of our original content,

01:07:59   which I agree with you, Jon,

01:08:00   that we don't know if that original content is useful or not

01:08:02   but who knows, but we will give you the storage

01:08:05   so that you never get nagged, which is what you just said.

01:08:07   I think the storage, in addition to all the other things,

01:08:11   may be enough pull to get people to do it.

01:08:14   And certainly if Apple has a couple of really hit shows,

01:08:18   then that would put it right over the edge.

01:08:20   But I think it's even more than the storage.

01:08:24   I think it's just the one bill to solve all your problems,

01:08:29   which of course isn't literally the case,

01:08:30   but one bill to get all of your photo issues resolved,

01:08:34   one bill to get all of your backup issues resolved,

01:08:36   one bill to get all of your music desires resolved,

01:08:39   one bill to hopefully get all of your TV

01:08:43   or movie stuff resolved.

01:08:45   And who knows, maybe they would throw in

01:08:46   like you can get a couple of iTunes rentals

01:08:48   for free every month or something like that.

01:08:50   Like I don't suspect that to happen, but you never know.

01:08:52   But the thought of them discounting the iPhone

01:08:56   is a tough pill for me to swallow.

01:08:58   - But for this whole plan,

01:09:00   there has to be some discount somewhere in there

01:09:02   and no one cares about discounts on Apple Music

01:09:04   or Apple Video or discounts on Apple Care.

01:09:07   All they care about is discount on the iPhone.

01:09:08   And again, you can make the discount 10 bucks.

01:09:10   Like it doesn't have to be a lot,

01:09:11   but the whole point is you have to,

01:09:13   there has to be a value proposition.

01:09:14   I don't even question the whole thing of like,

01:09:16   I want an iPhone every year.

01:09:17   I don't know if people do want an iPhone every year.

01:09:19   I know some people who get used to their phone

01:09:20   and want, even if you gave them a free upgrade,

01:09:22   they'd be like, I just wanna keep this phone

01:09:24   'cause I like it 'cause I'm not sure about the new ones.

01:09:25   Like some people want a phone every year

01:09:27   and those people would probably be the most likely

01:09:29   to pay for this thing,

01:09:30   but it can't be one of those Apple style plans

01:09:32   where you just add up the prices of everything

01:09:33   and add a little bit on top.

01:09:35   'Cause you're like, why would I do this?

01:09:36   Like yes, one bill is convenient,

01:09:38   but I liked it when they consolidated

01:09:41   the family plan or whatever,

01:09:41   but the mass consumer is like any sort of bundle,

01:09:45   there has to be a savings.

01:09:46   And the only thing people care about savings for

01:09:48   is the phone.

01:09:49   It's like Prime.

01:09:50   Prime, people bought it when it was just shipping.

01:09:52   Like that's all they cared about.

01:09:53   Everything else they didn't care about, it was on top of it.

01:09:55   So there's nothing you can do for like,

01:09:57   oh, I'm buying this because I get these add-ons.

01:10:00   They have to buy it and say yada, yada, yada, add-ons.

01:10:03   The whole point is that I pay less money for the iPhone.

01:10:07   And so I, you know,

01:10:08   and that is totally not an Apple thing to do.

01:10:10   I know they're raising all their prices

01:10:11   and so on and so forth,

01:10:12   but like that's, you need to appeal to people's sense

01:10:16   of getting a bargain somewhere.

01:10:18   - Yeah, I hear you,

01:10:19   but I really think the one fee to fix everything,

01:10:22   'cause I forgot about AppleCare,

01:10:23   you don't have to worry about breaking your screen

01:10:25   within reason.

01:10:26   And so I really think one fee to get it all done

01:10:28   is maybe enough.

01:10:30   - And I think AppleCare is a deal breaker price wise

01:10:32   'cause it's so damn expensive,

01:10:33   but maybe they could just spread that out

01:10:34   over three years or something.

01:10:36   'Cause I know so many people are like, I want AppleCare.

01:10:38   Then you show them how much it is

01:10:38   and you're like, oh, nevermind.

01:10:40   - Yep, hi.

01:10:41   But just as a final thought,

01:10:42   my answer to my own question,

01:10:44   what will affect Apple the most?

01:10:45   I think Apple Video or whatever it ends up being called,

01:10:48   which I do think it will be Apple Video.

01:10:50   I think that is really going to change Apple

01:10:52   because if it flops,

01:10:53   I think that will have a ripple effect,

01:10:56   possibly even more than the Project Titan

01:10:57   that may or may not have ever existed.

01:10:59   And if it's a success,

01:11:00   then that changes the way Apple feels about things.

01:11:05   And so, and suddenly they become a content company.

01:11:09   And we actually recorded today for Relay FM members,

01:11:13   myself, Alex Cox, and Steven Hackett

01:11:15   did an episode of Fusion, which is just for Relay members,

01:11:18   where we kinda dive into this a little bit

01:11:20   and it's worth listening to if you are a Relay member

01:11:22   and if you're not, you should be one.

01:11:24   But anyway, I just think that having one Apple bill

01:11:29   that solves almost all your problems might be enough.

01:11:31   I think we should move on to Ask ATP,

01:11:32   but before we do, Marco, any closing thoughts on all this?

01:11:35   - I don't think so.

01:11:36   I think you pretty much covered it.

01:11:37   I mean, I do agree with Jon,

01:11:38   there should be some kind of

01:11:40   significantly motivating factor,

01:11:41   but I don't think it needs to be as much

01:11:45   of an exclusive discount, as he says.

01:11:48   I really do think that just offering all this stuff together

01:11:52   as part of the iPhone upgrade program

01:11:54   for some smaller additional fee every month,

01:11:58   like on the order of 20 bucks a month more

01:12:00   or 15 bucks a month more, whatever it is,

01:12:03   I think that's very powerful.

01:12:05   Because ultimately, people are gonna come in

01:12:06   and buy iPhones anyway.

01:12:07   The iPhone upgrade program, by most accounts we've heard,

01:12:10   has been a success.

01:12:12   People do seem to be doing it in good numbers.

01:12:14   Making a single price thing that includes all this stuff,

01:12:21   it just makes so much sense

01:12:23   from both a consumer point of view

01:12:24   and from a point of view of helping Apple

01:12:27   get more services off the ground.

01:12:29   - And to be clear, they can do what you're describing,

01:12:32   like that plan, that will be a success in and of itself,

01:12:35   but it's just people who have lots of money

01:12:36   will do it for the convenience.

01:12:38   There is that convenience of it,

01:12:39   but I'm trying to think like Amazon Prime bigger,

01:12:41   as in how can you get it to appeal

01:12:43   to the widest variety of people,

01:12:44   not just like how can you make it more convenient

01:12:46   for people who are gonna give you that, like us.

01:12:48   We give them that money anyway.

01:12:49   I buy the biggest storage plan,

01:12:51   I buy the family thing, I buy AppleCare,

01:12:54   I buy all the expensive phones.

01:12:56   I would love to have that consolidated into a single bill.

01:12:57   So that is a valuable product

01:12:59   that will work for customers exactly like me.

01:13:00   But what I'm trying to think of are all the customers

01:13:03   who don't buy the backup plan

01:13:05   and don't cheap out on the storage

01:13:08   and don't replace their phones every year

01:13:11   and don't care about Apple Music or Apple Video

01:13:13   and how are you gonna get them on board

01:13:15   the Amazon Prime train?

01:13:17   - Yeah, and I think that's me that you're describing

01:13:19   because I do get an iPhone almost every year.

01:13:21   I am a devout Spotify user,

01:13:23   but I could be convinced if I felt like I was saving

01:13:28   even a few bucks somewhere,

01:13:30   that, and not necessarily on hardware, just somewhere,

01:13:33   if I get the video stuff, the music stuff,

01:13:37   if I get iCloud storage, which I still am not paying for,

01:13:40   even though yes, I know I should,

01:13:41   please email somebody else.

01:13:43   - What?

01:13:44   Did we do this already?

01:13:45   You're not paying for it? - We did, we did.

01:13:46   Yes, we already did.

01:13:47   I've been beaten up about it.

01:13:49   - I was just gonna ask you

01:13:49   if you were buying the family plan,

01:13:51   but you don't need buying the storage at all here.

01:13:52   That's terrible.

01:13:53   You need to put that in the follow-up and until you buy it,

01:13:56   we just ask you about it every week.

01:13:57   - We'll make a web.

01:13:58   Somebody will make a single serving site for you.

01:13:59   - You're gonna be like my parents.

01:14:00   I'll just have to buy it for you without your knowledge

01:14:03   and not tell you about it.

01:14:04   - Perfect, sold.

01:14:05   I'm gonna delegate that to Marco actually.

01:14:07   Marco good at it.

01:14:08   (laughing)

01:14:09   - I could see myself being convinced

01:14:11   because the idea of just getting one bill

01:14:14   that just covers everything is appealing

01:14:17   and maybe that makes Spotify go away.

01:14:19   I don't watch that much Netflix.

01:14:22   Maybe Netflix would go away, probably not,

01:14:23   but you never know.

01:14:24   - Yeah, the video service is the hardest

01:14:25   because no one who's into "Orange is the New Black"

01:14:28   is gonna say, well, now that I've got Apple Video,

01:14:30   like people will subscribe to the services

01:14:32   because there are specific shows they want,

01:14:34   increasingly exclusive shows.

01:14:35   No one is going to ditch CBS All Access

01:14:37   because they got Apple Video

01:14:38   because CBS All Access has Star Trek.

01:14:39   So the video is tough.

01:14:41   They need to make good shows.

01:14:42   - That's why, the reason why Netflix took off so well

01:14:46   is because you can have just Netflix

01:14:50   and always have something to watch.

01:14:52   You don't have that with services

01:14:55   that are exclusively original content like HBO.

01:14:58   Like you can't, if you're a big HBO fan,

01:15:01   you can go there and you can watch "Game of Thrones"

01:15:03   and whatever else you watch on there when it's in season,

01:15:06   but then when it's out of season,

01:15:07   you don't have much you can go there for.

01:15:09   And so if Apple's doing exclusively original content,

01:15:14   which, I mean, I don't think we necessarily know that

01:15:16   from the reports so far, but it's most likely

01:15:19   that it's gonna be exclusively original content

01:15:21   based on how they appear to be doing things so far.

01:15:24   So if that's mostly it,

01:15:25   if there's not gonna be some giant catalog of '90s sitcoms

01:15:28   that you can watch reruns of instead

01:15:30   when you feel like doing that,

01:15:32   it's not gonna be a service where people are like,

01:15:34   "I'm gonna cancel Netflix and go to that."

01:15:36   They're gonna watch stuff on there when there's a reason to,

01:15:39   and when there's not, they're gonna go elsewhere.

01:15:42   And that's why I think it's gonna be a really tough sell.

01:15:45   Like to get a video service off the ground

01:15:47   in this day and age,

01:15:48   like when all the competitors are very mature

01:15:50   and that have huge catalogs,

01:15:53   to get something off the ground today

01:15:54   that's probably gonna have a fairly small catalog to start

01:15:58   is not gonna be easy,

01:16:00   especially since Apple is not incredibly good

01:16:04   at launching these kinds of things.

01:16:05   See the Apple Music launch.

01:16:07   - The way everyone talks about this launch,

01:16:09   and which I think would make sense

01:16:10   to downscope this slightly is like,

01:16:11   "Oh, how does Apple deal with an Apple Video service?"

01:16:14   You just make a part of Apple Music

01:16:15   with no increase in price, done.

01:16:17   Like that's exactly the prime model.

01:16:18   Say you already buy Apple Music

01:16:20   because for whatever reason you like Apple Music,

01:16:22   works with your HomePod, guess what?

01:16:23   You got video for free.

01:16:24   Oh, I don't even care about video.

01:16:25   I was like, "Well, what are you getting it?"

01:16:26   So deal with it.

01:16:27   And suddenly Apple Video has exactly the same user base

01:16:30   as Apple Music, which is actually doing better

01:16:31   than probably the last time we talked about it.

01:16:34   That is not Apple One where you get everything

01:16:36   and a phone upgrade and the storage or whatever,

01:16:38   but it is the obvious way to launch Apple Video

01:16:41   in an Amazon style.

01:16:42   That is not an Apple style.

01:16:43   We come up with a new service and you get it for free

01:16:45   at the same price with Apple Music,

01:16:47   not the old Apple style,

01:16:49   but the new services oriented Apple style,

01:16:50   if they care about getting adoption and they have any,

01:16:54   like that's the way to do it.

01:16:55   That is exactly the prime plan.

01:16:56   It's just less exciting for us

01:16:58   hoping for an Apple One service.

01:17:00   - Well, and maybe that's like the baby version of it.

01:17:03   I agree that is probably the more,

01:17:05   it's like kind of the safer, smaller step.

01:17:08   I don't necessarily know if it would come

01:17:09   with no price increase.

01:17:10   I think maybe Apple Music would suddenly become 20 bucks

01:17:13   a month instead of 15 for the family or whatever.

01:17:15   - Just the usual snake,

01:17:16   like the price wouldn't increase when the video was added,

01:17:19   but Apple Music would just creep up in price

01:17:21   like everything else in a way that you don't notice.

01:17:23   - Well, that's why Amazon did it.

01:17:25   Amazon charged a fixed price for Prime for years

01:17:28   and then they started adding a bunch of stuff to it

01:17:30   and then like a couple years after they added a bunch

01:17:33   of stuff they're like, we're gonna raise the price

01:17:34   'cause now you're getting so much more for this.

01:17:37   - And it's a proven, and the good thing is

01:17:39   they raised the price after I think Amazon Video

01:17:42   has proven its worth.

01:17:43   They had some good shows that people liked.

01:17:44   They're like, I wouldn't wanna get rid of Prime now

01:17:46   partially because of the video

01:17:48   because Patriot was on there

01:17:49   and The Man in the High Castle was on it.

01:17:50   They actually have shows that I care about.

01:17:52   In the beginning they didn't, but now they do.

01:17:54   So when they increased the price there was no question

01:17:56   that I was gonna keep paying that price.

01:17:57   - Yeah, but anyway, so I think some kind of bundle

01:18:02   subscription I think will happen.

01:18:04   Whether it's part of the iPhone upgrade program

01:18:06   or whether it's a separate thing that could be expanded

01:18:08   Apple Music or a whole new plan that includes Apple Music,

01:18:11   whatever it is, I think a bundle subscription

01:18:14   that includes multiple services, at the very least,

01:18:17   music, video, and God I hope iCloud storage.

01:18:21   Because look, everyone should get iCloud storage

01:18:24   and it's time that Apple makes a plan

01:18:26   that forces people like Casey to get it

01:18:28   even though they don't think they need it.

01:18:29   (upbeat music)

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01:20:50   - Okay, let's do some Ask ATP.

01:20:55   Wojtek P. Trusavich writes,

01:20:58   "Hey, Jon, please explain again

01:21:00   "in as much detail as possible."

01:21:02   Oh God.

01:21:02   "Exactly why you didn't buy the 2013 Mac Pro.

01:21:05   "This is a serious question/request."

01:21:07   - You're not gonna get as much detail as possible

01:21:09   in Ask ATP, sorry.

01:21:10   I thought I did it like last show.

01:21:14   The Trashcan Mac Pro had two big sort of workstation style

01:21:18   GPUs with tons of VRAM and one CPU.

01:21:23   And that's not like the shape of the machine that I want.

01:21:26   I want one fast GPU for gaming

01:21:28   that doesn't need to have 12 gigs of RAM.

01:21:31   I certainly don't need two of those.

01:21:32   And the other big factor is like the Trashcan came out

01:21:37   around about the time we were talking about

01:21:40   having a quad 5K,

01:21:42   what we now know as the retina display on the,

01:21:44   not quad 5K, quad 27 inch, I think I kept referring to it.

01:21:49   But anyway, a 5K display.

01:21:50   But that Mac Pro seemed like it couldn't drive one

01:21:54   even if one existed.

01:21:55   So it's like, well, I'll wait for the next one of those

01:21:57   because maybe the next one will be able

01:21:58   to drive a 5K display.

01:22:00   Ha ha ha, the next one.

01:22:01   There never was a next one.

01:22:02   So that's why.

01:22:03   If I was gonna buy a new Mac Pro,

01:22:04   I wanted it to be,

01:22:06   like we were so close to retina on the desktop

01:22:08   in a 27 inch form factor

01:22:10   that it seemed wasteful to buy a machine that didn't do that.

01:22:13   And this particular machine didn't,

01:22:16   like it didn't have the internals that I wanted.

01:22:17   It was very expensive.

01:22:18   I was paying for workstation class GPUs

01:22:20   with tons of VRM that not only did I not want,

01:22:23   but weren't actually as good

01:22:24   as what a single gaming GPU could be.

01:22:26   Doesn't mean the new Mac Pro's gonna satisfy me anymore,

01:22:28   but those are the reasons I didn't buy that old one.

01:22:30   And obviously, because I thought they would revise it

01:22:33   and maybe the one the next year or the year after

01:22:35   would support 5K.

01:22:36   But there just never was a next one.

01:22:38   Sorry.

01:22:39   - Marco Silva writes,

01:22:40   "Hey John, do you smash?"

01:22:42   And if you've ever watched Jersey Shore, that's very funny,

01:22:45   but I believe Marco's referring to Smash Brothers.

01:22:49   And also, have you ever wandered

01:22:51   into the world of fighting games, John?

01:22:53   - I don't know why that I'm asking this for everybody.

01:22:55   We all have a way to play Smash Brothers now, right?

01:22:57   All got Switches.

01:22:58   I played Smash Brothers on the N64,

01:23:03   on the GameCube.

01:23:05   Did I get the Wii version?

01:23:06   I don't think I did get the Wii version.

01:23:08   I don't even remember if there was a Wii U version.

01:23:10   I didn't get it for Switch.

01:23:12   Not that into it.

01:23:14   Like I got it 'cause it's a cool, fun game,

01:23:16   but I'm just not that into fighting games, period.

01:23:18   I have not wandered into the world of fighting games.

01:23:20   I know a lot about it and have read a lot about it

01:23:22   because it is the subject of many articles,

01:23:25   both interesting and horrifying,

01:23:27   in the recent years in the gaming press

01:23:29   and in the past as well.

01:23:30   Like the GameCube, I feel like was the,

01:23:34   where I started really reading about

01:23:36   the Smash fighting game community

01:23:40   and the tournaments and everything.

01:23:41   And yeah, I've never been into that at all.

01:23:44   It's just not my cup of tea.

01:23:46   - Yeah, I had Super Smash Brothers for the Wii.

01:23:51   Yeah, I think it was the Wii.

01:23:52   And I actually really liked it.

01:23:54   I didn't play it that terribly often,

01:23:56   but it was a really fun party game because it,

01:23:59   well, the way in which myself and my friends played it,

01:24:01   none of us had any particular skills.

01:24:03   We were just mashing on buttons randomly.

01:24:05   And it was a lot of fun to play in a group setting.

01:24:08   I haven't yet picked up the one for the Switch.

01:24:10   I probably will at some point for the exact same reason.

01:24:14   But generally speaking,

01:24:16   I'm not that into fighting games either.

01:24:18   I never really played Mortal Kombat that much.

01:24:19   I did love and play the snot out of Street Fighter II

01:24:23   back in the day.

01:24:24   But that was about it.

01:24:26   Marco, where do you come down on this?

01:24:28   - I don't play fighting games really.

01:24:30   I mean, I barely play any games at all.

01:24:32   (laughs)

01:24:33   But if I'm gonna be playing games,

01:24:34   it's generally, it hasn't been fighting games

01:24:36   for a long time.

01:24:36   Like back when Street Fighter II came out

01:24:39   for the Super Nintendo,

01:24:40   which was the first modern fighting game,

01:24:43   I played that with my friends at my friends' houses,

01:24:48   but I never really went past that.

01:24:50   - Yeah, fair enough.

01:24:51   The thing about fighting games is like,

01:24:52   there's, what we all just described,

01:24:53   which is like, oh, let's just go have fun with a game.

01:24:55   But there's another game

01:24:57   that the fighting game people are playing.

01:24:59   Like, there's a big gap.

01:25:01   It's not, you know, it's probably not as comparable

01:25:03   in any other sort of genre.

01:25:05   I was thinking like Destiny.

01:25:06   Like, there's a pretty smooth spectrum

01:25:08   from people who are just playing Destiny casually

01:25:11   all the way up to the crazy people like me.

01:25:14   Or, you know, obviously the streamers

01:25:15   people play all day long.

01:25:17   But in fighting games, it's like,

01:25:18   you're either just like goofing around and having fun,

01:25:21   or you are playing an entirely different game, right?

01:25:23   Where you, where like, it looks different to you.

01:25:26   It looks and feels different to you

01:25:27   because you know all the different things

01:25:29   about the moves and the, you know,

01:25:31   the timing and the frames of animation

01:25:34   and the cancellations and like,

01:25:36   people who just play fighting games like casually

01:25:38   don't even know that stuff even exists.

01:25:40   Like, they're just, it's not all button mashing,

01:25:42   but it's close.

01:25:43   Like, they start, they're conceptualizing

01:25:45   as a little person on the screen

01:25:46   that you can make do stuff.

01:25:48   They're not seeing the matrix.

01:25:49   And there's this huge gap,

01:25:50   and then there's actual fighting game people.

01:25:52   And to be any good at fighting games,

01:25:53   you have to see the matrix in that way,

01:25:55   and it becomes a different thing.

01:25:56   And I think it's actually very interesting.

01:25:57   It's just not what I'm into.

01:26:00   - Thanks to our sponsors this week,

01:26:02   Aftershocks, Care/Of, and Banktivity by IGG Software.

01:26:06   And we will talk to you next week.

01:26:08   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

01:26:13   ♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

01:26:16   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:26:18   ♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪

01:26:21   ♪ John didn't do any research ♪

01:26:23   ♪ Marco and Casey wouldn't let him ♪

01:26:26   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:26:29   ♪ It was accidental ♪

01:26:32   ♪ And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM ♪

01:26:37   ♪ And if you're into Twitter ♪

01:26:40   ♪ You can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S ♪

01:26:45   ♪ So that's Casey List M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M ♪

01:26:51   ♪ Auntie Marco Arment S-I-R-A-C ♪

01:26:56   ♪ USA, Syracuse ♪

01:26:58   ♪ It's accidental ♪

01:26:59   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:27:01   ♪ They didn't mean to ♪

01:27:03   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:27:05   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:27:06   ♪ Tech podcast ♪

01:27:08   ♪ So long ♪

01:27:10   - What exciting things happening in people's lives?

01:27:14   - Michaela turned one.

01:27:16   - Good pictures of Michaela up on your Instagram.

01:27:18   - Hey, thanks, yeah, those are good ones.

01:27:19   - Those were for one new thing.

01:27:20   You've had a lot of nice pictures on your Instagram lately.

01:27:22   - Oh, thanks, man.

01:27:23   Yeah, I'm trying.

01:27:24   Actually, well--

01:27:25   - I'm just digging for compliments

01:27:27   'cause they're all my pictures.

01:27:28   - I was, I realized, I realized as soon as you said that

01:27:32   that the pictures I put up of Aaron and me yesterday,

01:27:36   I think both of those are John Siracusa originals,

01:27:38   and at least one or two of the Michaela ones.

01:27:41   - It was all them except for the last one of Michaela.

01:27:43   - Was it?

01:27:43   Okay.

01:27:44   Last two, maybe?

01:27:46   But yeah, you're right.

01:27:46   Okay, here it was.

01:27:47   I thought you were complimenting me,

01:27:48   but no, it was really--

01:27:50   - Do you ever get the, I get this,

01:27:51   I think I've talked about this before

01:27:52   when I first started doing Instagram,

01:27:53   people giving me crap about the fact

01:27:55   that I take my pictures from my big camera

01:27:58   and put them on Instagram?

01:27:59   Like, that's cheating.

01:28:00   - Yeah, I don't think that's the thing

01:28:01   people actually care about anymore.

01:28:02   Like, there were people who would give you crap on it,

01:28:04   crap about it like, you know, years ago,

01:28:05   but yeah, that's not a thing anymore.

01:28:07   - Now people just care about ads in their timeline.

01:28:09   - Yes.

01:28:10   - And non-chronological timeline.

01:28:11   - No, 'cause the reality is, like, now,

01:28:13   a lot of what you see in your timeline

01:28:15   is shot on professional cameras

01:28:16   and processed in professional apps

01:28:18   and then stuck in Instagram.

01:28:19   Like, there's so much of it now that, like,

01:28:21   and the cameras in your phone have gotten so good

01:28:24   that many of the phone shots--

01:28:25   - They have everything in portrait mode, yeah.

01:28:26   - Yeah, yeah, many of the phone shots

01:28:28   look like pro camera shots.

01:28:30   So yeah, I don't think anybody cares

01:28:31   about the distinction anymore.

01:28:34   - Yeah, I have such a complicated relationship

01:28:36   with Instagram because the more time I spend on it,

01:28:38   the more I like it, then the more I hate myself

01:28:39   because I know it's Facebook.

01:28:41   Like, well then, there's so many damn ads, but--

01:28:44   - Yeah, the ads are out of control there.

01:28:45   Speaking of speaking of something

01:28:46   I would pay for a service for, like,

01:28:47   oh, God, not that Facebook would ever let us pay

01:28:49   to get rid of ads, but I would pay that in a second.

01:28:52   Like, it used to be like, you know,

01:28:55   every couple of pictures there was an ad

01:28:57   and now I think it's like literally every other picture

01:28:59   is an ad, I can't handle it.

01:29:01   - Yeah, they've really cranked them up like,

01:29:02   and it's in the stories too, like it's--

01:29:04   - Yeah, in the story, like, in this game,

01:29:06   the story is like nowhere is safe from this.

01:29:08   - Like, I don't, and the thing is, like,

01:29:10   I actually like Instagram ads more than most online ads

01:29:15   that get in my way because they actually are

01:29:18   creepily relevant a lot of the time.

01:29:21   And I've actually discovered some really nice products

01:29:23   that I've bought from Instagram ads,

01:29:26   so I know I'm like not helping the system at all by actually--

01:29:28   - So you're the problem.

01:29:29   (laughing)

01:29:30   - Yeah, it's like I'm not the guy who responds to spam,

01:29:31   right, it's like, I have actually bought

01:29:34   really good things from Instagram ads,

01:29:36   and so has my wife, so is Tiff, so,

01:29:38   like, and I refer to other people too,

01:29:39   like, the products that get advertised to you

01:29:41   on Instagram ads often are pretty good

01:29:44   and often are pretty well targeted.

01:29:46   - Maybe I need to give them more information about me

01:29:48   'cause they do not have my number.

01:29:49   Like, they're, I mean, they're advertising me clothes,

01:29:52   for example, like, it's not,

01:29:53   I don't know what they're doing.

01:29:55   There was an ad, like, I don't even know

01:29:56   what the ads are for.

01:29:57   The reason they bother me is they're so big

01:29:58   and you have to scroll past them.

01:29:59   - Yeah. - What the hell was,

01:30:00   I got to launch Instagram, like, it was an ad

01:30:01   that I saw just before the show,

01:30:04   and I, like, I scrolled past it,

01:30:05   and I didn't even realize what it was.

01:30:08   - I think they think I'm a woman.

01:30:11   There's a number of reasons why the ads suggest that,

01:30:13   but overall, like, they think I'm a man often enough

01:30:17   to sometimes suggest, like, you know, men's walking shoes

01:30:20   and stuff, so I don't know, but I have,

01:30:22   there's a couple of, like, mistargeted things

01:30:24   where, like, maybe it's confusing me and Tiff

01:30:26   'cause we are from the same IP address, I don't know, but--

01:30:30   - All right, so I've got Star Trek ad,

01:30:32   which, I mean, I guess that's close,

01:30:33   but, like, that's not a great ad

01:30:34   'cause I already know about that show.

01:30:35   Like, I'm very aware of it, and anyway.

01:30:37   A leaf gutter blocker thing?

01:30:41   - Oh, yeah, I've seen that one a lot too.

01:30:42   - That's the one, what is that?

01:30:43   - Well, that's actually pretty well targeted.

01:30:45   - You're a homeowner, you care about such things, probably.

01:30:49   - I'm not gonna, I'm not in the market, Greek yogurt, no.

01:30:52   I don't know, like, the one, here, let me see,

01:30:57   the one Instagram ad I ever saw that I had any interest in

01:31:00   that I actually looked at long enough to know what it is

01:31:03   was that service that I'm sure everyone

01:31:05   gets this Instagram ad.

01:31:05   Like, it knows that I play video games,

01:31:07   so there's this thing where they do, like,

01:31:08   these metal posters of, like, video game characters

01:31:10   and people from movies and stuff, have you seen that one?

01:31:12   - Yeah, yeah.

01:31:13   - Yeah, I looked at that because it had a cool picture

01:31:16   of some, like, Destiny or Halo thing or whatever,

01:31:18   and I'm like, all right, they know I play video games,

01:31:20   and I like those video games,

01:31:21   and I would like a cool looking thing,

01:31:23   but then I didn't, you know, do anything about that.

01:31:25   It's not like I actually bought anything.

01:31:27   Yeah, Instagram, and the stories with the green circles now,

01:31:30   I'm really confused by that.

01:31:32   Have you seen some of those, Casey?

01:31:33   - Yeah, yeah, that's close friends.

01:31:35   - Explain to me how that works.

01:31:36   I mean, obviously, I know how it's supposed to be, like,

01:31:38   only your close friends see this,

01:31:39   but I didn't know there was a way to say someone

01:31:41   is a close friend at Instagram.

01:31:42   - Yeah, so this is only in the last maybe month or so,

01:31:44   but you can set up a list,

01:31:46   and I don't think there's a numeric limit,

01:31:49   or if there is, it's fairly,

01:31:51   what's the word I'm looking for?

01:31:54   You can put a lot of it. - Generous.

01:31:55   - But generous, thank you, God,

01:31:56   I couldn't think of the word, thank you.

01:31:58   Yeah, so there's this new thing from last month or so,

01:32:01   and it's where you can specify that some number of people,

01:32:04   and the number is fairly generous, are your close friends,

01:32:08   and when you put up an Instagram story,

01:32:10   you can elect to make it public,

01:32:12   or you can elect for only close friends to see it,

01:32:14   and naturally, there is no hint

01:32:17   that you have put up a close friend story

01:32:19   to people who are not your close friends.

01:32:22   So, you know, if you did not mark me as a close friend, John,

01:32:25   but you did put up an Instagram story

01:32:27   for your close friends, then I would be none the wiser,

01:32:29   unless I was, like, looking over, say, Marco's shoulder,

01:32:32   and I saw you with a green circle around you,

01:32:34   but the green indicates that some of that content,

01:32:36   some, if not all, of that content is just for close friends,

01:32:38   and I really like that a lot,

01:32:40   because I think to some degree there's an implied,

01:32:44   I don't know, seriousness isn't the word I'm looking for,

01:32:47   but, like, Instagram carries a little bit

01:32:50   of implied weight in my mind,

01:32:52   that the things you put on there are pretty,

01:32:54   or special, or interesting,

01:32:56   and, like, especially with Instagram stories,

01:33:00   my day-to-day life is really, to anyone else in the world,

01:33:03   would be quite boring and very uninteresting,

01:33:05   and so I don't really put up a lot on Insta Stories,

01:33:09   unless I'm at a football game, or a concert,

01:33:11   or traveling, or something like that,

01:33:14   but my close friends, of which I think the list is,

01:33:17   my list is, like, 30-ish,

01:33:19   my close friends might give a crap

01:33:22   about the boring administrvia that I do day-to-day,

01:33:25   and so I might be way more forthcoming

01:33:27   with my close friends and putting up Insta Stories

01:33:30   that only they get to see,

01:33:32   and there's a handful of people

01:33:35   that have made me close friends of theirs,

01:33:37   which is really nice,

01:33:38   and I've really enjoyed being able to interact

01:33:40   with their stories, 'cause I know, going into it,

01:33:43   that this is less polished, I guess,

01:33:46   than the sort of thing I would normally see on Instagram,

01:33:50   or especially an Instagram story,

01:33:52   and there's more, even more casualness,

01:33:57   casuality, I don't, that's not a word,

01:33:59   but it's more casual when it's with close friends

01:34:02   than it is even with Stories,

01:34:03   and I feel like Stories is a more casual version

01:34:05   of Instagram, and a more ephemeral, of course,

01:34:07   version of Instagram to begin with.

01:34:10   - I find this feature terrifying,

01:34:11   because it's yet another opportunity for you

01:34:13   to not be aware that you aren't sending it

01:34:15   to your close friends when you thought you were.

01:34:16   Like, some of the rules are like never put anything up

01:34:18   on the internet that you wouldn't want the world to see.

01:34:20   This feature enables you to do that.

01:34:21   You are the feature made to put things,

01:34:23   and it's just, like, can you imagine,

01:34:26   like, if you put something in there that's supposed to,

01:34:27   especially if you actually treat it

01:34:28   as just your close, close friends,

01:34:29   and you wanna say something important or heartfelt

01:34:32   or show some, you know, thing where, like,

01:34:35   your wife walks by in her underwear in the background

01:34:37   or something, like, and you didn't do,

01:34:40   you thought you were on close friends, but you weren't.

01:34:42   Like, it's just, you know, I'd, ugh.

01:34:45   I can't even imagine. - Yeah, I take your point.

01:34:48   - I mean, then again, I'm someone

01:34:49   who never does Instagram Stories at all,

01:34:50   so obviously I'm not the target marketer.

01:34:51   Maybe it's an awesome feature, and obviously you like it,

01:34:53   so I would just give, every time I see that green circle,

01:34:56   like, it just makes me think about

01:34:58   all the non-green circles that people thought,

01:35:00   might have thought were green circles when they were.

01:35:02   - I take your point, but they are,

01:35:04   I forget exactly how the UI works.

01:35:06   I haven't done it in a few days at least,

01:35:07   but I believe there's, like, two different buttons

01:35:09   on the bottom of the screen when you take a picture

01:35:11   or a movie or what have you,

01:35:12   and it's pretty clear which one does what,

01:35:15   and there's no, like, there's no hoodwinking

01:35:17   or any of the other creepy stuff

01:35:18   that Facebook typically does yet. (laughs)

01:35:22   There's, you know, there's none of that to make you,

01:35:25   to make it easy for you to make a mistake.

01:35:27   Again, I take your point.

01:35:28   It doesn't mean you're wrong by any means,

01:35:29   but I don't know, I really, really like it.

01:35:33   I'm getting some real-time follow-up

01:35:35   from an anonymous person whose name might sound like Schmike

01:35:38   who has said that he has occasionally put up a,

01:35:41   he or she, I should say, has occasionally put up a story

01:35:46   that was intended for close friends

01:35:48   but ended up going to the whole world.

01:35:49   So, such things do happen from time to time.

01:35:52   - Yeah, the one thing that gets me on Instagram

01:35:53   is, like, I post Instagram so rarely, right?

01:35:55   But the, I think, if you count the number of times

01:35:58   I've intentionally posted an Instagram

01:35:59   and compare it to the number of times

01:36:00   I have somehow hit something that I accidentally turned on,

01:36:03   like the, it's either the camera

01:36:05   or maybe it's like the starting a story type thing.

01:36:08   - A spice to the left. - I accidentally activate that

01:36:10   all the time, and I'm like, oh, stop, whatever you're doing,

01:36:13   stop, turn off camera, I'm not, you know.

01:36:15   It must just be 'cause I brushed the bottom

01:36:17   at the bottom of the thing,

01:36:18   or maybe I'm going for another icon

01:36:19   but they don't have labels on them, they're not good.

01:36:22   Yeah, I think I do that more often

01:36:23   than I intentionally post.

01:36:25   - Just to show the relevance of the ads,

01:36:27   I just scroll, I've been scrolling through

01:36:28   as you guys have been talking

01:36:29   and documenting all the ads I'm seeing.

01:36:31   - Watches, watches.

01:36:32   (laughing)

01:36:33   No, surprisingly not, but New York Times subscription

01:36:35   was the first one, that's actually pretty good,

01:36:38   like that's pretty well targeted.

01:36:39   I read the New York Times sometimes,

01:36:41   I don't subscribe to it, I've thought about subscribing

01:36:43   to it, I'm in their demographic.

01:36:44   - I've never seen that ad, and I go to the New York Times

01:36:46   all the time, bad job.

01:36:48   - So I got that, I have something called PopChart

01:36:50   which like makes posters of things,

01:36:52   that was kind of a miss.

01:36:53   Fancy upstate New York architectural homes

01:36:57   in the mountains, that's actually

01:36:59   a pretty well targeted ad.

01:37:00   (laughing)

01:37:02   Marine Layer, former sponsor of this show,

01:37:04   they make good soft t-shirts, that's a great ad.

01:37:07   I have some other shirts, that's perfect.

01:37:09   Waterproof sneakers, eh, it's an okay ad,

01:37:11   I've bought athletic sneakers from there before,

01:37:13   so that makes sense.

01:37:14   Fancy leather dress shoes, actually pretty good,

01:37:18   I've tapped on some of those ads before.

01:37:21   - Maybe you just buy more stuff than me,

01:37:22   that has more data.

01:37:23   - An iPhone cloth case, I don't know where that one

01:37:26   came from, but not too bad.

01:37:28   Some kind of fancy mattress for athletes, eh.

01:37:32   T-shirts for people who love the big Lebowski, okay.

01:37:36   A hands-free dog leash, I do like a lot of dog posts.

01:37:40   And finally a men's like subscription clothing box service.

01:37:45   Which I am like, you know, pretty much

01:37:47   in the demographic for, so these are actually

01:37:49   pretty well targeted ads to me.

01:37:52   - Meanwhile, I'm looking at an ad about,

01:37:54   as far as I can tell, this is a hate one,

01:37:56   I can't tell what the ad's for.

01:37:57   - Wait, people are going crazy over these Macbook skins,

01:38:00   John?

01:38:01   - No, the ad that I'm looking at is, I think,

01:38:04   trying to get me to travel to Iceland.

01:38:07   Not a well targeted ad.

01:38:09   But the thing is, I can't even tell.

01:38:12   With the audio off, I can't tell.

01:38:13   The account that it's from is L-A-N-D-B-L-A-D-E-X-P.

01:38:18   Lindblad Exp, I don't know.

01:38:20   - I'm not sure that's how it's pronounced.

01:38:21   - Anyway, so I'm not going to Iceland.

01:38:23   I am not a big traveler, like I don't know

01:38:25   where the hell that's coming from, what else do we have?

01:38:28   - A smart home blinds closing thing?

01:38:31   I own zero smart home things.

01:38:32   - I've seen that, the thing that loops around the cord.

01:38:35   - Yeah, yeah, that's a good idea.

01:38:37   - Okay, well this one's closer.

01:38:39   It's a dongle.

01:38:42   A USBC dongle.

01:38:44   All right, that's, I mean, I guess.

01:38:47   Yeah, I just, I mean, the thing I used to like

01:38:51   about Instagram ads is they would have nice photos in them.

01:38:54   I would be like, well, even if it's not a thing I care about,

01:38:55   it has a pretty photo, but I think Instagram ad makers

01:38:58   have figured out they don't need to make

01:38:59   a nice photo anymore, they just need to have

01:39:01   like a crass comment.

01:39:02   - Well, if they're like high end products,

01:39:04   like the upstate New York mountain house architecture ones,

01:39:07   those photos are beautiful.

01:39:08   Like I almost like, I kind of make a habit

01:39:10   of not liking ads, 'cause like I don't want to feed them that

01:39:14   but I almost liked that one 'cause it was just

01:39:16   really nice pictures.

01:39:17   - Don't like ads.

01:39:18   OPP France?

01:39:20   It's a sneaker company called OPP?

01:39:23   - Yeah, you know me.

01:39:25   - Yeah, I know.

01:39:26   - Now I'm getting, my first ad that I've seen

01:39:30   is Goosebumps the movie, which, okay.

01:39:33   - I will say, my favorite sneakers came,

01:39:36   it's the On Running brand, and I discovered that

01:39:41   through Instagram ads.

01:39:42   I discovered it, I bought the shoes, they're fantastic.

01:39:45   - You're the problem, you're propping up

01:39:46   the entire Instagram economy.

01:39:48   - Quaker, Chia Peach overnight oats.

01:39:51   - Oh, finally, finally found a relevant ad.

01:39:53   My dog's GPS, which I already own,

01:39:55   is being advertised to me, good job.

01:39:58   - Weston Hotels.

01:39:59   Some of my ads are really, really, really

01:40:02   annoyingly and uncomfortably good,

01:40:04   but most of them I feel like are just shotgun approach.

01:40:08   Let's just put this in front of as many eyeballs

01:40:10   as we can and see what happens.

01:40:11   - Yeah, I mean a lot of these are clearly like,

01:40:12   give me men, 25 for 34, whatever.

01:40:15   - Yeah, exactly.

01:40:16   - A lot of it is like stuff like that, you can tell.

01:40:18   But a lot of it is more focused and sometimes very focused

01:40:23   and some of them are like cheap, garbagey stuff

01:40:26   like back this Kickstarter for this thing you don't need.

01:40:29   Those are kind of crappy.

01:40:30   But there's enough good ones that I don't mind

01:40:34   the quality of the ads anymore.

01:40:36   When they first joined my timeline,

01:40:38   I was very offended by their presence

01:40:41   just 'cause I had never had ads before.

01:40:42   But now that I've had them for a long time

01:40:44   and I'm accustomed to them and I've gotten

01:40:46   some actually pretty good products out of them,

01:40:47   I don't mind them as much.

01:40:48   I do think that they are a little bit too frequent.

01:40:52   Like they need to turn that dial down a little bit

01:40:55   and of course they never will.

01:40:56   But if I had my ideal case, I know they're never

01:40:59   gonna get rid of the ads completely.

01:41:01   But I do wish there would be fewer of them

01:41:03   and have them be more spaced out.

01:41:05   - You know, this is tangentially related.

01:41:07   Do you ever look at the explore tab

01:41:09   which is the little magnifying glass?

01:41:11   - Occasionally, if I run out of stuff

01:41:13   and I'm not tired yet or whatever.

01:41:15   - That is exactly when I use it for the record.

01:41:17   But I have found that that tab is eerily good.

01:41:23   At predicting what I would wanna see.

01:41:24   Like lots of cars, fair bit of nerd stuff,

01:41:27   and then a smattering of other things.

01:41:29   - Yeah, mine is entirely watches and dogs.

01:41:32   Like that's all it is.

01:41:33   - Yeah, exactly.

01:41:34   John at the bottom on the tab bar,

01:41:36   not the home but the magnifying glass.

01:41:38   - Magnifying glass.

01:41:39   I have never tapped on this before in my life.

01:41:40   Here we go.

01:41:41   - So this is to me exactly what Instagram thinks you are.

01:41:45   And for my case, it's stunningly accurate.

01:41:49   - Yeah, this is not good.

01:41:51   It's showing me a Trevor Noah.

01:41:54   I did watch a Trevor Noah video on Twitter today.

01:41:56   So that's a good guess that I might wanna see it.

01:41:59   Kind of.

01:42:00   Then there's a bunch of pictures of people

01:42:01   that I don't recognize.

01:42:03   I don't know why I would think

01:42:04   I would wanna see these people.

01:42:05   I have no idea who they are.

01:42:05   There's one picture of food

01:42:06   because I follow Nevin's food account.

01:42:08   - Do you follow Nevin's dogs?

01:42:09   Is he really cute?

01:42:10   - No, I know about Max, but I don't follow dog accounts.

01:42:13   No, it's just a bunch of people I don't know.

01:42:14   Why would I ever?

01:42:16   So that's so much for that.

01:42:17   - So maybe I just don't,

01:42:19   maybe you don't put in enough Instagram.

01:42:20   - I don't follow car accounts, dog accounts.

01:42:23   I follow people that I know.

01:42:24   So as far as it's concerned,

01:42:25   it looks like this person likes pictures of people.

01:42:27   I mean, I guess that's true.

01:42:29   The only time I ever hit the like button

01:42:30   is on a picture of somebody that I know.

01:42:33   The only thing I'll do in the Marco vein

01:42:34   is cute kids I will always give.

01:42:36   But that's cute kids of people I know.

01:42:37   It's not just random cute kids, right?

01:42:39   - First of all, you are missing out

01:42:41   by not being a part of dog Instagram.

01:42:43   Dog Instagram is very powerful.

01:42:44   - I'm on dog Twitter.

01:42:46   I get my dogs on Twitter.

01:42:47   - Dog Instagram's better, I'm telling you.

01:42:49   - I mean, maybe, but I feel like I'm cheating on my dog.

01:42:52   Plus my dog is really cute anyway.

01:42:53   (laughing)

01:42:55   - That sweet, precious angel.

01:42:56   - Yeah, I get all the dog lovin' I need in person.

01:43:01   Yeah, no, I'm just looking at Instagram

01:43:04   just to see pictures from people I know and that's it.

01:43:07   So maybe I'm using it wrong, but whatever, that's what I do.

01:43:09   - The only thing for me that kind of like poisons

01:43:11   my explore tab sometimes is,

01:43:14   like there's a large part of Instagram

01:43:18   that I normally don't see any of

01:43:20   and don't want to see any of,

01:43:22   which is basically people just screenshotting viral tweets

01:43:26   and trying to make viral memes spread

01:43:29   on their Instagram accounts that they just stole

01:43:31   from Twitter and other social networks.

01:43:33   So it's just like, I'm coming here to not be on Twitter,

01:43:37   and then when they bring Twitter to me,

01:43:40   it kind of ruins that.

01:43:42   - Have you seen the stories of stories?

01:43:44   - No, is that a thing now?

01:43:45   - Yeah, you can do a story of someone else's story.

01:43:47   - Oh, good.

01:43:48   - Like as if these things aren't blurry

01:43:50   and low resolution enough,

01:43:52   now you're gonna do someone else's story within your story?

01:43:55   Ugh, don't like it.

01:43:56   I think maybe that's a feature that only certain

01:43:59   high-end influence people have, but I see it,

01:44:00   and I'm like, it is like you said,

01:44:02   it's like pictures of tweets.

01:44:03   - Well, there is a thing where if somebody tags you

01:44:06   in their story, it gives you the quick ability

01:44:08   to re-story it in one of those little inset things.

01:44:13   But yeah, I'm talking more about it's just people

01:44:16   screenshotting memes and GIFs and Twitter posts

01:44:19   and making Instagram posts out of them.

01:44:21   - Or taking a picture of their computer screen

01:44:23   as a story of them holding their phone

01:44:24   up to their computer screen.

01:44:25   It's like great, cool story, bro.

01:44:27   (beeping)