298: Protective Sandwich


00:00:00   Hey everyone, just me for a second here recording from after we recorded the episode.

00:00:04   We are starting a merchandise sale starting about the day that you're going to hear this.

00:00:09   We have new t-shirts for sale, some of the old ones are coming back, and we have pins that are back.

00:00:13   They're a little bit more improved from before, but pretty much the same design as before. Really hot sellers last time.

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00:00:26   Also, we forgot to mention in our wonderful extravaganza covering the Apple event that you're about to hear,

00:00:32   that voting day in the US is going to happen between this episode and the next recording.

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00:01:03   [Music]

00:01:04   [Music]

00:01:05   Marc, where are you right now?

00:01:06   I am in my house in New York.

00:01:09   And Jon, where are you?

00:01:11   I'm in my house not in New York.

00:01:13   Okay, and I'm also in my house, but that doesn't make sense because I hugged you like five hours ago.

00:01:19   Why is your voice so hoarse, Casey?

00:01:21   Anytime I speak at more than normal speaking voice for more than like ten minutes, I sound like a chain smoker.

00:01:28   It's been a long day. Marco and I worked together. It is currently nine o'clock in the evening on Tuesday, Halloween Eve.

00:01:35   And I last saw Marco at about one, I think, or thereabouts.

00:01:41   Yeah, something like that. Yeah, right around lunchtime.

00:01:43   Since the last episode was recorded, we got invited to go to the Apple event today.

00:01:51   And because Marco and I don't have jobs, we were able to do that.

00:01:55   And so this morning I woke up a little before four, flew to LaGuardia, went to the event, and got home about an hour ago.

00:02:04   So it's been a bit of a day.

00:02:07   And I was listening to last week's episode, actually just yesterday or today or whatever, and I made a snarky comment about how, "Oh, we all got our invites to the event, right?"

00:02:17   Well, actually, we did get invites to the event.

00:02:20   Thank you to Apple for inviting podcasters to Apple events.

00:02:25   And thank you for having them on the East Coast, even though I couldn't make this one, unfortunately, because of my day job.

00:02:30   I appreciate the fact that it was on the East Coast, and my ability to make it was, you know, made it much greater by the location.

00:02:36   So I would encourage this. In fact, all Apple events should be on the East Coast.

00:02:39   And if Apple would like to make them in Boston, that would be super convenient for me, too.

00:02:42   But anyway, it's awesome, it's exciting that we got invited, and it's exciting that you two got to attend.

00:02:47   You know, and I would like to reiterate what Jon said, because I was particularly curmudgeonly/whiny about the fact that podcasters do not exist according to Apple PR.

00:02:59   And I honestly don't know how or why we got invited, and if a little birdie wants to tell me, I'd be curious to hear how that happened.

00:03:07   But I ain't complaining! I don't know how it happened, but it happened.

00:03:10   And so I am extremely thankful, and well, we are extremely thankful, and it was super cool.

00:03:18   And we'll talk a lot about the event, of course, because I think that's what the people tuned in for, but I'm sure we'll be a little inside baseball about what it was like for us to be there.

00:03:26   Jon, I am genuinely sorry you couldn't make it, but I'm glad that even one of us, let alone two of the three of us, could go. So it was very cool.

00:03:35   I'm actually kind of relieved that there was nothing related to the Mac Pro at the event.

00:03:39   It would have been amazing.

00:03:41   It was hard enough for me not to be there, right? But I'm like, "Well, but at least there probably won't be any Mac Pro stuff," right?

00:03:47   And there wasn't, so great relief for selfish reasons.

00:03:50   So how do we want to do this? Do you want to try to go chronologically?

00:03:54   I think we'll go through it as usual in show order, in presentation order, but I do have an opening statement that I was going to make more forcefully, and now I'm waffling, huh?

00:04:04   Waffling on it a little bit.

00:04:06   [laughter]

00:04:08   I'm sure we'll talk about this in the event, and this is not what the event was about, but it's something that a lot of people on Twitter were talking about, and something that I was thinking when I watched the video of the event.

00:04:20   That aside from everything that was announced at the event, the subtext that I was getting, right or wrong from this event, is this is Apple whispering slightly louder to the world, not to tech nerds who have already been talking about this for literally years, but to the world, saying, "We're going to make our Macs."

00:04:43   And I think that signal is less hidden than it was.

00:04:50   Now, the reason I'm waffling is I'm like, "Oh, sure, they could be saying that publicly in subtext as a negotiating tactic for the company whose name was not uttered or shown to the degree that it normally is in this presentation, Intel."

00:05:07   So if you are trying to get the upper hand on Intel in any sort of future negotiations about whatever they might negotiate about, one way to increase the power of your position is to stop really talking about their products so much.

00:05:23   Stop really bragging about them. In fact, don't mention their name at all, but just sort of use generic terms, like the number generation they're on and maybe the word "core."

00:05:31   And then spend a long time talking about how awesome the CPUs that you, Apple, make.

00:05:39   So that's my one meta comment on the whole thing, and that is not what this presentation was about. It was about iPads and all the products we're going to talk about, right?

00:05:47   But I felt that signal coming through to me through the video. You guys can tell me what it was like to be there in the room if this was really about Apple today, and I'm just wrong because I was watching it by video.

00:05:58   So what makes you waffle on it now, though?

00:06:01   It's potentially a negotiating tactic, right? I was going to boldly predict, like, this is it. Because I was coming out of this like that, Apple just basically said, "We're making RMX."

00:06:11   Like, "Hello, everybody. To the public, tech nerds have been talking about this for years. Now we're saying to the public, 'We are making RMX.' If you can't figure it out by now, it's going to happen. You want it to happen. Everyone knows it's going to happen. We're making RMX."

00:06:23   But if you were trying to negotiate with Intel about anything, this would be the way to increase the power of your position. To get the public on your side to say, "Oh, the public wants us to make RMX. Everyone agrees our ARM chips are better than everything you have. So what have you got to offer us?"

00:06:42   That ship may have already sailed. We don't know, right? And no negotiating can change the fact that Intel is behind on process, which Apple emphasized in this presentation.

00:06:53   7nm. Did you know that nobody on a laptop or a phone or, no, I think it's a laptop or desktop market has that. Did you know that? Apple knew that, and they mentioned it.

00:07:04   It was just like, it was hit after hit. Anyway, that's it. That's my opening statement. If I'm out of commentary, we'll go back to it when we get to that section.

00:07:11   Just to answer that question that you posed, I don't think this is a negotiation tactic. I think Apple has made the decision already that Intel is being phased out over time. It's only a question of how and when that happens.

00:07:24   It's like when a job is really horrible and you decide to quit the job. If you go into your boss's office and they're like, "Well, how about we pay you 10% more?" That's not going to change your decision. You already made the decision. It's just an issue of executing it.

00:07:36   That's how Apple's decision is. I think Apple decided probably over the last few years to break up with Intel, and they're just slowly doing that.

00:07:47   I guess I have to add at this point because we probably won't talk about the Mac Pro. I'm kidding. We will. Anyway, this is also making me think that I may be in a position, personally, and many other people may be in a position of buying the last great Intel Mac, assuming the Mac Pro comes out next year and is Intel-based.

00:08:09   What is it going to be like to buy an $8,000 Intel-based Mac the year before all Macs go ARM and the processors are amazing? The other fantasy that's going around is, as everyone has said, "But what if the new Mac Pro is taking so long because it is ARM?" That would also blow my mind.

00:08:26   I feel like I'm in an uncomfortable Mac Pro position right now, but as we'll get to later, Apple is kicking some major CPU butt.

00:08:36   All right. It starts with the MacBook Air. We are talking about the Mac right up front. We spent a fair bit of time talking about the Mac. I didn't time it or anything, but I expected the Mac to take up three minutes at the top of the show. It was a while.

00:08:56   Yeah, because this is major updates. Before we get into the Air, I do want to talk one second about the black and white video about creative people using the Macs that came right before the Air segment.

00:09:08   I thought it was very interesting that almost every Mac laptop that was in that video had the glowing white Apple logo on the back, which means it was pre-2016 models.

00:09:20   You pointed that out to me when we were in the show. There were definitely some that did not have a glowing Apple logo, but you were right. The majority to my eye, or at least once I started paying attention when you said something, the majority were absolutely older ones, which is definitely interesting.

00:09:35   And we also got a number. Tim said that the active Mac installed base is 100 million. That's a number that I don't think we get very often, if ever.

00:09:45   We also don't know how they measure that, so it's like, okay, I guess. What does that even mean? There's many different ways to slice that. It's a round number and it's a section on the Mac, so they've got to look for some number to brag about, I guess.

00:09:57   I wonder if it's connections to XProtect or connections to other software update mechanisms or the App Store.

00:10:04   Yeah, there's definitely ways you can measure that to come up with a bigger number or a smaller number. If you just measured the ones that are supported by Mojave, for example, that number is way smaller, right? Because they actually started cutting people off.

00:10:16   If you measure hardware that you could take from an Apple store and get repaired, like not in Apple's obsolete list, I wonder if that number shrinks as well. Anyway, they're selling a lot of Macs.

00:10:26   Indeed. So they start by discussing how everyone loves the MacBook Air, which was true, if not anymore. And we got a new MacBook Air, which up until just a few minutes ago as we record, I think we all kind of assumed, and Marco, you had reached this conclusion almost immediately, assumed that it was a MacBook Escape, but not.

00:10:50   But it sounds like that is actually not true. So can you tell me a little more about this, Marco?

00:10:54   Yeah, so this, I've been kind of like on a research rollercoaster all day trying to figure out the MacBook Air. Like, so here's, you know, it was introduced, like, you know, we've all in the Mac community and especially Apple users, we love the MacBook Air.

00:11:11   We have loved the MacBook Air for a very long time. And they capitalized very much on that in this presentation. They, like, Tim called out the MacBook Air as the most loved Mac, which I think that was probably an accurate description.

00:11:26   They even, he even brought up the, he called back the envelope reference, which was really nice. And so, like, it referred back to all the MacBook Air history and really capitalize on the MacBook Air love that it has built up over time as, like, one of Apple's most valuable product names and brands and icons, right?

00:11:49   The funny thing is, if you look at what they actually have shipped as the new MacBook Air, it looks a lot like a middle point between two computers they've been shipping for two years now.

00:12:03   The MacBook Escape, which they've been shipping since 2016. And it also now we're learning that it actually has a lot of similarities to the 12-inch MacBook, which shipped in 2015.

00:12:14   When the MacBook Escape was unveiled in 2016, Phil Schiller, during the presentation, actually called out this configuration of the MacBook Pro without the touch bar as an Air successor.

00:12:28   He mentioned the Air and he said, he said they created this new configuration of it to, you know, to appeal to Air buyers or to, something like that, right? I forget the exact words.

00:12:37   And so they were positioning, oh, and it made sense, like, technically, because it had the same processor class as the Air, the same approximate guts as the Air.

00:12:46   It was totally different from the touch bar models. Like, all the guts were different, like the components, the CPU and everything.

00:12:51   - Similar size and weight too, importantly.

00:12:53   - Yeah, it was 3.0 pounds, 13-inch screen, like, it was very, very similar to the MacBook Air in many, many ways.

00:12:59   It was positioned as such, it was engineered as such.

00:13:01   Clearly, the MacBook Escape was supposed to be the MacBook Air replacement and the market basically said no, for lots of reasons.

00:13:10   I mean, up front, the price was even worse.

00:13:12   Like, there was, since a price drop in the Escape, that brought it down a little bit further, but, you know, in 2016, it was much more expensive than the Air and people didn't like the new keyboard, which also kept dying.

00:13:25   People didn't like the fewer ports and, you know, the loss of the legacy ports and the fewer total ports, you know, because it only had the two, plus the headphone jack.

00:13:34   That has been on sale for two years and the market has spoken very loudly that, no, that is not the MacBook Air replacement we were looking for.

00:13:43   - One thing I'll throw in there, obviously the price, I think, is the number one concern in everything you brought up, but I actually think, and I can say this more confidently now that Apple probably agrees with me,

00:13:53   that the taper, the lack of a taper, was like the third place factor, which sounds stupid and I've railed against the taper before saying you can fit more battery if you don't taper it.

00:14:02   But it's clear that Apple considers, as I think I mentioned a couple shows back, the taper to be an important part of the MacBook Air's branding.

00:14:13   They put it on the 12-inch MacBook, the MacBook One, that tapers, and the new Air has the taper as well, and the Escape didn't.

00:14:22   And so, obviously the price, I think, was the number one, and number two was probably lack of ports and MagSafe and all that other stuff, but number three, I think, was the taper.

00:14:30   Because if you love the MacBook Air and it's your most loved thing, what you want more than anything is a replacement for the MacBook Air that is like your MacBook Air, but better.

00:14:39   And like your MacBook Air, like I was talking about this when we were talking about the rumors, what does it mean to make a new MacBook Air?

00:14:44   Like the MacBook Air means, essentially, it has to be wedge-shaped, because that's the MacBook Air.

00:14:48   And I think it feels thinner because of the skinny edge, and I think it makes people think, "Oh, I had an old MacBook Air that I loved, and now here's a new MacBook Air," which we'll see whether we love or not, but it's clearly a MacBook Air, whereas the new MacBook Escape was not a MacBook Air as much as Phil Schiller may have wanted it to be.

00:15:02   It was the MacBook Escape. It was the MacBook without Touch Bar with a really big Escape key. That's what it was, and it cost a bazillion dollars, and it was not a new Air.

00:15:11   See, I agree it was not a new Air, but to me, what it looks like they have done here is basically renamed the MacBook Escape, the new MacBook Air, I made it wedge-shaped, and now it still has almost all of the same drawbacks as the Escape did to Air buyers.

00:15:30   It's got more, right? Because it's 5-watt CPU.

00:15:32   Right, yeah, okay, I'll get to that in a second. But now that they call it the Air, now everyone's like, "Oh, finally, they made the computer I wanted," but it appears as though they really have done a marketing jujitsu here.

00:15:44   It really is basically a halfway point between the 12-inch MacBook and the Escape, and it does not have the things that MacBook Air people want, but it's called a MacBook Air.

00:15:57   And it's wedge-shaped.

00:15:58   And it's wedge-shaped, and it's three pounds, and it's 13 inches, but they've already been selling a computer that is almost exactly that for two years that nobody has bought, basically.

00:16:07   So I don't, to me, everyone's really happy today because this is the day the event happened, everyone is very excited about everything, it looks really cool and everything, but if you enumerate the reasons why you weren't buying the Escape for the last two years, all of those reasons apply to this.

00:16:25   And more. And I remember a couple shows ago, I was saying, when we were in our umpteenth iteration of gnashing our teeth about the laptop line, it was like, something like, "Imagine if Apple shipped this computer, how much would you like?"

00:16:38   And I said, "Imagine a MacBook Air, but that's retina." And it's like, that's what people want, right? And so isn't that exactly what you got? Isn't it a retina MacBook Air?

00:16:46   Nope.

00:16:47   And I look at this machine, and I say to you, "If I took this machine, and I put a 15W CPU instead of a 5W in it, and I put a USB-A and an SD card slot on it, and I put a different keyboard on, would you like it more or less than the computer here?"

00:17:00   And I would be hard-pressed to find somebody who would say they would like it less. Because those things I just changed about it, they would probably make it more expensive, but to the point that you're going to get to soon,

00:17:13   there already is a bunch of other laptops in Apple's line that are like this. There's a bunch of other products that are sort of spreading out along the line here.

00:17:26   If you wanted to make a new computer that fills a new role, the reason people don't like the escape, like you said, if you knew about all those reasons, if you want to counteract them, make a retina MacBook Air.

00:17:36   Which is, take the MacBook Air and put a retina screen on it and update the USB ports or whatever, but don't take away things that people love, which is the keyboard that they like that's more reliable, maybe an SD card slot, maybe a USB-A slot.

00:17:48   There's things that you could do, there's small things that everyone would say, "Oh, that's better. That's even better than what we got." But they haven't done that.

00:17:55   So I think when people look at this computer, I think they may actually go pretty far on the fact that it's called MacBook Air, but if you had that sort of Pepsi challenge where I said, "Do you want this one or the one with the single USB-A port?"

00:18:09   And they'd be like, "Oh, I'll take that one. Why wouldn't I take the one with the big chunky port? Because I have some stuff that's shaped like that that goes in that hole. Do you want this one or the one that has MagSafe?"

00:18:17   "Oh, well, I love the MacBook Air. It's the most loved Mac ever. And I love MagSafe. And first of all, I'll take the one with MagSafe." Those two changes right there wouldn't actually cost that much more money.

00:18:26   Obviously, Apple is on the outs about MagSafe for reasons that I don't think have been fully articulated to the public, but may actually be valid. We just don't know. Maybe it was starting fires or causing reliability concerns.

00:18:35   But a USB-A port? That doesn't cost that much money. They could find room to fit it, and people would love it, but Apple says no.

00:18:42   So it has the same two USB-C ports as the Escape, which...

00:18:48   Two Thunderbolt ports, to their credit.

00:18:50   Yeah, okay, yeah, fair. But what that really means, though, is one port if you have it plugged in, plus the headphone port, which is on the wrong side.

00:18:57   No, having one more port sounds like paradise. Don't you knock it, my friend. That would be amazing.

00:19:03   And I'll get to that in a second, too. But anyway, so you have the same ports as the Escape, which I had for a while and decided were not enough, but okay, we'll move on from that. This is a low-end product, after all.

00:19:13   You have the same keyboard. It's the same keyboard as this year's 2018 MacBook Pros.

00:19:19   So, obviously, with the change of there being Touch ID without a Touch Bar, which, by the way, is awesome. I love that. I love that you can get Touch ID without the Touch Bar. That is a great option, and I hope that option moves across the line.

00:19:32   Well, you hope that just because you're begging for scraps. I hope Face ID moves across the line, but we're not there yet.

00:19:39   Fair enough, yeah. I'd say if we're going to keep having that giant top bezel on the screen, might as well make Face ID in there. But anyway, so it is the same keyboard, though.

00:19:48   So anybody hoping for a different keyboard, myself included, we are disappointed because it is the same.

00:19:54   Now, it does have that silicone membrane that the 2018 update brought to that keyboard to make it quieter, but we also know that there are still reports of these keys flaking out and dying, so it's not fixed.

00:20:06   The problem is not gone. It just seems to be maybe reduced. So it still has an unreliable, expensive, hard-to-service keyboard, which I still assert is a terrible choice, not only for anybody, but especially for a low-end model, where these have to last a long time.

00:20:23   They're sold to very value-conscious buyers. They need to withstand things like schools and heavy use. So specs of dust are going to be a problem, I think.

00:20:33   They're going to keep pushing this. I was hoping that this new MacBook Air would be the first model to show off a new industrial design that would spread across the line.

00:20:42   Obviously, that was wrong. That was not in the cards for this year. That is not going to happen yet. We're not ready for it yet. I'm disappointed by that, but oh well.

00:20:51   And your new hope should be that this is the last laptop in the old design language. So you were hoping this would be the first of the new generation.

00:21:00   Right.

00:21:01   Now we all switch to saying, "I really hope this is the last of this generation." Meaning this generation means, starting with the 2015 MacBook, of the butterfly keyboard generation of no ports, this keyboard, we should all pray that this is the last one.

00:21:16   That whatever the new generation is coming in the future, it wasn't in time for this. So this is the capstone. They've now converted their entire laptop line to this style and this generation.

00:21:28   And all the trade-offs that are made on pretty much every single one of these models are the same. It's not like they perhaps couldn't revisit the trade-offs. The best they could do was put some membranes on the keyboard.

00:21:39   But all the trade-offs that were present across the entire line, they're still there for every one of these computers.

00:21:44   And we're three years into this, almost three and a half years into this generation of natural design for the laptops. Typically these generations last like four to five years at most.

00:21:56   Obviously Apple slows down over time with Mac updates seemingly, so that might extend. But I'm guessing we still have another year of this left, unfortunately.

00:22:05   But anyway, besides it being not what I wanted, this does look like a good computer, but what's really interesting is this article that came out on MacRumors tonight.

00:22:15   They're doing some investigation of what processor is in this thing. They really didn't mention it very much. All they said was that it was 8th generation and we know it's like 1.6 GHz base.

00:22:25   There's only one processor option. There's no build to order upgraded processors. I noticed when I was looking through the tech specs that this computer only has a 30 watt power brick.

00:22:36   Which is the same wattage as the 12 inch MacBook. The escape, which has what used to be the Air Class 15 watt CPUs, ships with a 60 watt power brick.

00:22:47   So it seems like this computer uses way less power. So sure enough there's this MacRumors article tonight that seems correct that the processor based on just like model numbers existing in Intel's system and everything.

00:23:00   It is the MacBook class of power consumption and performance, not the MacBook Air and MacBook Escape class.

00:23:08   What this computer appears to be is a 13 inch MacBook, not a wedge shaped escape after all.

00:23:17   Once you learn this about it, a whole lot of things make more sense and a whole lot of things are kind of disappointing or weird.

00:23:25   It is tech forward. It's way more tech forward than the 12 inch MacBook. And by the way, the 12 inch MacBook didn't get an update this year, which is weird.

00:23:33   It should theoretically have gotten updated today with this. If this is basically a 13 inch MacBook, the 12 inch should have been updated with it.

00:23:43   I don't know why it wasn't, but oh well. We'll get there. Maybe it's some weird Intel thing, who knows.

00:23:47   But it is tech forward in the sense that the new MacBook Air has the T2, the T2 architecture with the SSD controller and everything. That's great.

00:23:55   It has the modern speaker system and microphones. It has touch ID, which is awesome. I did find it kind of funny that they were talking about things like retina screens and the force touch trackpad being new.

00:24:10   Because even though, it was basically like re-celebrating all the innovations they had for the last few years, but the Air never had them.

00:24:19   So to the Air, they were new, but it's like here's why a force touch trackpad is good. And it's like yeah, that was introduced to the MacBook line in 2015.

00:24:28   So thanks. But anyway, it does look like a really interesting product if you can tolerate that keyboard and if the pricing works for you.

00:24:39   But it's more, I'm really curious to see the performance of it and to see whether it throttles really badly because the MacBook has some issues like that sometimes.

00:24:49   But it sure does seem like it's actually a 13 inch MacBook, not a replacement for the Air directly. And it's actually going to be probably a performance hit.

00:24:58   I think the only reason it compares well to the Air is because the Air is so old.

00:25:02   Yeah, this was weird for me to watch because I'm not dying to upgrade my MacBook, but I would like to.

00:25:11   I got it, I think I placed the order during WWDC 2017, so I got it sometime in June of that year.

00:25:18   And I love my MacBook adorable, but it's not fast and the one port is kind of annoying.

00:25:26   Generally speaking, I don't mind it, but there are definitely times that it's kind of annoying.

00:25:30   And not having Thunderbolt is also kind of annoying because if I wanted to get a dock, I have to be super careful that it's a USB-C dock.

00:25:39   And that could potentially limit me, although it doesn't seem like I need anything that Thunderbolt gives me.

00:25:45   So I'm sitting in the presentation, I'm watching it, and I'm like, "Oh, there's two ports. Oh, they're Thunderbolt ports. This is all sounding great.

00:25:53   Everything's coming up Casey." And then we learn that it's basically the same CPU and that really puts a damper on things.

00:26:02   Because I want something quicker, like a lot quicker. And so I'm not desperate to upgrade my laptop, and thus I probably won't,

00:26:11   especially because the new iPads look so hot. But I don't know what I would do if I were to buy a laptop today.

00:26:19   And my personal priorities are something that is very small and very light, but preferably not quite as slow as my current MacBook.

00:26:28   I guess I would get the escape? I'm not even sure what I would do.

00:26:36   And also I should add that when I was in the hands-on area, which it is so cool to be able to say that, but anyway, when I was in the hands-on area,

00:26:42   I had forgotten that I actually don't love the feel of the third generation butterfly keyboards. They feel a little bit mushier to me.

00:26:54   Now, I would probably get used to it, and it's probably for the best because they're all so quieter, allegedly.

00:27:00   But yes, I understand they touted the stability of the keys, but it just felt a little squishier to me.

00:27:07   And one of the things I love about my adorable keyboard is how crisp it is.

00:27:12   And yeah, I can totally see how that may not be your Royal You and your, specifically Marco Armin's, cup of tea, but for me, I really like it.

00:27:21   And I'm not sure I like the new one quite as much, although if I had to sacrifice the stability of it in order to get,

00:27:29   or the crispness of it in order to get something that's more reliable, I would totally make that trade.

00:27:33   I'm really curious, especially if you look at, think about this too, the way this fits in with the lineup,

00:27:39   the 12-inch costs $100 more to start. Now, that's partly because there is no 12-inch configuration that only has 128 gig SSD,

00:27:49   which by the way, should be illegal. But if you actually configure these to be equally spec'd,

00:27:53   where basically you give the Air 256, then the 13-inch new Air is $100 more than the 12-inch at the same spec.

00:28:04   So what would actually finally make sense here, that would finally resolve this, would be if the 12-inch gets a 128 gig configuration

00:28:15   that is $100 less to start, so like $1,099 basically to start. Then you have the two MacBooks basically,

00:28:24   the 12 and 13-inch at $1,100 and $1,200 to start. And if you look at the pricing, like as you scale up,

00:28:31   like the Escape I think is like $200 more than them, the Touch Bar is another $200 more than that,

00:28:37   something like that, right? So like, the lineup would make so much more sense, except for the one hilarious difference

00:28:43   that these two very similar low-end computers, the larger of them would be called the Air.

00:28:50   I think I was just carrying along the branding. The more I think about this, the more it just looks like a 13-inch MacBook One

00:28:56   with Thunderbolt, right? Which is an okay computer to have, but it adds granularity to their line in a weird place.

00:29:04   I feel like there's still a gap. And incidentally, speaking of gaps, they're still selling the old MacBook Air.

00:29:10   That was a question we had going into this. As far as I can tell, they're still selling it. Maybe they're just clearing the inventory.

00:29:15   Maybe they won't. But if some people, somewhat snarkily saying, or people who are disappointed that this isn't the first of a new generation of MacBooks,

00:29:23   saying that if pressed, they might still buy the old non-retina MacBook Air for the keyboard, for the USB-A ports, for the, you know, whatever.

00:29:33   Especially if the main thing you're doing on it is typing. Maybe retina doesn't mean anything. You're not doing image editing or whatever.

00:29:39   And so if the main thing you do is, you know, go around with your computer and type words and maybe use a web browser and like plug in USB sticks and an SD card from your camera,

00:29:51   the old MacBook still is the better, quote-unquote, "better computer" for you.

00:29:55   But if you were someone who loved the MacBook One, the 12-inch MacBook, but you just wish it had Thunderbolt and maybe a little bit bigger screen and was slightly faster,

00:30:03   this is the computer for you. But I'm not sure if it's going to appeal to MacBook Air owners.

00:30:09   Like that was the pitch during the presentation. Tim Cook was like, "Everyone loves the MacBook Air, so now we've got a new MacBook Air."

00:30:14   And it's, again, it's hard to tell when I'm not there in the room, but the video was like, "And the crowd goes wild." Like who doesn't want--

00:30:21   The crowd did go wild. It was like thunderous applause. Because people love the MacBook Air.

00:30:27   So I'm saying like they really are like really capitalizing on that. They're really pushing the marketing on this product hard.

00:30:35   They really want people to accept this as the new MacBook Air.

00:30:39   And they might, because if they just want a wedge-shaped computer that is not the tiny, tiny MacBook One, this fills that role.

00:30:47   But as time wears on, if people replace their MacBook Airs with this computer, will they miss MagSafe and USB-A and SD?

00:30:58   Or will they just be like, "Oh, shrug. It's the new MacBook Air. It's a little bit weird, but I'll get used to it." Time will tell.

00:31:04   And again, still selling the old one is--that's not a shock because that's the thing that Apple does now.

00:31:11   And still selling it to schools makes some kind of sense. But having it in the line, making tech nerds--like not out of spite.

00:31:19   Not like, "Well, if you're not going to make exactly the computer I want, then I'm going to buy the old one forever." Like a Marco move.

00:31:24   I didn't say forever. I know. But I don't think it's actually a spite move.

00:31:30   I think it is really saying, "Let's really think about what do I actually want out of my computer, and am I willing to trade these things that I'm used to?"

00:31:39   I'm used to having MagSafe if you're just really obsessed with that and can't stomach the idea of not having it.

00:31:46   They will still sell you a computer with that, and you can decide whether typing your password every time you unlock your computer, or having a slow computer, or having a non-retin computer, or having terrible viewing angles are worth it to you.

00:31:57   All that said, I mentioned I was in the market for a new homework laptop, and I did the comparison after everything was announced to say, "Okay, so they've made their announcement.

00:32:05   Let me spec out the new MacBook Air that I would get, and now let me compare it." And I did the comparison. I compared it to the MacBook Escape, and the configurations I wanted, the pricing was frighteningly close.

00:32:17   And I'm like, "Well, then why would I get the Retina Air instead of the MacBook Escape?" And I said, "Oh, yeah, Touch ID." So for me, that puts it over the top.

00:32:25   Also, oh yeah, the MacBook Escape still has the more dust-prone keyboard. It has not been updated to the third gen.

00:32:31   I'm not entirely convinced that that's a material difference with the Memrines. But anyway, Touch ID was the big deal breaker. I'm like, "Oh yeah, I've forgotten that the Escape doesn't have Touch ID. Forget about that."

00:32:42   So I have been to the Escape, even though they're very similar in price, and the Escape is faster, surely, right? But I don't care about that for a homework computer.

00:32:51   And it's better in a whole bunch of ways. Touch ID makes the new Air much more attractive to me than the Escape. And then the 12-inch, when I compared the pricing there, surprisingly, if you start specing up the 12-inch to be close to the configuration I wanted from the Air, the pricing isn't that far apart there either.

00:33:10   But again, the MacBook One, no Touch ID, right? Am I wrong about that?

00:33:15   That's correct.

00:33:16   That's correct.

00:33:17   All right, I forget what's on the thing. No Touch ID.

00:33:19   Also no membrane on the MacBook One.

00:33:21   Yeah, and then you've got the other different keyboard, and it's only got the one port.

00:33:24   So within Apple's lineup, the new Air, at least for my purposes, is the most desirable product for a sort of low-end laptop, because I don't want to get the non-retin-it because I just can't stomach it.

00:33:35   And because I just had one of those, I feel like I'd be buying the same computer, right?

00:33:39   And the two sibling computers that are around the same price range with different trade-offs in terms of size and power, neither of them have Touch ID.

00:33:49   And as much as I want Face ID, Touch ID on a laptop, especially one that multiple kids log into and parents and everything going back and forth, not typing your password is a big quality of life improvement.

00:33:59   So for all of our complaining about this computer, we can't buy what Apple doesn't offer, and among what Apple offers for a cheap laptop, as far as my specific use case is concerned, this is the most attractive model.

00:34:12   You know, like I'd said earlier, it was a rollercoaster for me, and what I was thinking about just a moment ago is that for my MacBook Adorable, generally speaking, the only real peripherals I ever plug in is an SD card reader, which I do a lot.

00:34:32   Occasionally Ethernet, which I actually use an old USB-A Ethernet adapter just because it works. Oh, that was why. Because I need it to be a plug-in. I need to be able to plug it into the dongle that has power input because I only have one port. That's what it was.

00:34:49   So, shut up Marco. So I was thinking about it though, like my SD card reader, which is a USB-C SD card reader, is physically way wider than these two ports directly next to each other will allow.

00:35:06   That's actually been a problem since all the 2016s. The ports are so close together that some peripherals will block the other ports next to them.

00:35:14   Right. So if we tunnel vision, and I'm tunnel visioning on purpose to make my point, but if we tunnel vision on the only reason Casey wants a second port is for an SD card reader, which is not the truth but is not far from the truth, this is still a one-port laptop because they're directly friggin' next to each other.

00:35:31   I couldn't plug in a power port at the same time, or I couldn't plug in power at the same time I'm using an SD card reader unless I get like a USB-C extension. I don't even know if that thing, does that exist? Is that a thing?

00:35:43   I wouldn't, I don't think that exists and I wouldn't trust one. But can't you just get a different dongle that has a built-in power pass-through and Ethernet and SD card reader? Like I have one that does that.

00:35:51   Yeah, fair. Yeah, you could do that.

00:35:53   And they have adapters, like we have them at work. They're kind of terrible, but they go into both ports. Like they go, both of the USB-C ports and on them they have SD card and HDMI and USB-A and you know, a bunch of other stuff.

00:36:05   I'm always afraid those are gonna like snap off. Like the ones that have little short cables I think are way better.

00:36:10   I haven't broken one yet, but they're definitely ungainly. I noticed some things when I was going through the video. I think, I believe this is the first time that I can recall seeing an Apple promotional video that shows someone using an Apple product with an obvious white dongle poking out of the back.

00:36:26   I think it was when they were showing like Mac Minis or something and a bunch of kids were using them to do some, you know, video project or whatever and you could see the back of the computer and it jumped out at me.

00:36:34   It was like a sore thumb because you've got all these sleek little computers and the telltale white dongle poking out of the back, which is what real Macs look like in the world.

00:36:40   There's white dongles poking out of the sides of all of them, but very rarely do you see that. Like if you look at all of the, well at least from the pictures I saw, in the hands-on area, not a lot of white dongles poking out of the back of all those Mac Minis.

00:36:52   Just smooth, carefully arranged, like color matched cables to show how awesome and cool and sleek the Mac Mini is. Although we'll get to that in a second. That's the reason for that.

00:37:00   But yeah, they showed a dongle poking out of it and I continue to think that like until and unless the world catches up with Apple's vision of connectivity on laptops, the reality for all of us will be dongle town and dongle town is not a fun place to be.

00:37:16   I mean, it's not the end of the world. We're all doing it. It's a thing that works and it has advantages in terms of docking stations and everything, but it also has disadvantages.

00:37:23   So thus far, Apple seems either unwilling to compromise on this or they've compromised on it, but we haven't seen the fruits of that compromise yet. It's difficult to tell which is which. I feel like you two could have asked Johnny about that when you were there and maybe Marco did, but we'll get to that later.

00:37:39   I actually, I have a better idea for how they can solve this problem. Space gray dongles.

00:37:46   Then they'll still look pro and Apple can sell us a whole bunch of new copies of the same things we already bought. So everyone wins.

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00:39:42   [Music]

00:39:45   I mean it's interesting. I feel like this is going to sell well because people are going to say, "Oh, this is the new version of the thing I loved."

00:39:52   And I just want a more modern version of the thing I loved. But it is certainly not without compromise, which is something we're kind of getting used to at this point unfortunately.

00:40:01   Well, it's something we get used to on the Macs and especially the laptop Macs.

00:40:06   It's the laptop specifically.

00:40:08   Yeah, because if you look at the desktops, we'll talk about the Mac Mini in a second. The Mac Mini update is awesome. It's fantastic.

00:40:16   And the iMac Pro, as I mentioned every show, is awesome. I love the iMac Pro.

00:40:22   It's just the laptops that have been in such a weird place the last few years.

00:40:27   And it seems like they can't ship a laptop that doesn't have severe compromises in some way.

00:40:32   Even if you like the keyboard that I hate, it seems like there's severe compromises on all these laptops.

00:40:39   Whether that's if you don't like the keyboard or if you need it to work reliably, or whether it's heat and thermal issues, whether it's simply that they just cost way more than they used to and the upgrades for them are very expensive and less and less is serviceable.

00:40:53   And you have to buy all these dongles for everything.

00:40:56   Or if you want any port other than USB-C and maybe headphones.

00:41:00   Right, exactly. So it seems like the laptop updates are just compromise after compromise after compromise.

00:41:08   Whereas the desktops and the iOS line, the hardware is so good and the updates are almost all positive. They're so strong.

00:41:18   And we'll get to that for the rest of the show, fortunately. I think our one downside thing is over because the Mac Mini update was fantastic.

00:41:26   Alright, so let's dive in. There is a new Mac Mini and that also made a lot of people very happy in the room and justifiably so because it had been how long? 18 years?

00:41:38   Something like that. Can I just say too, I loved the intro video.

00:41:41   It was the most dramatic Mac Mini intro video ever.

00:41:43   I know, and it was kind of tongue in cheek.

00:41:45   It was totally tongue in cheek. That's why it was funny.

00:41:48   I love Tim's sly little, "There's another small but mighty Mac our users have been waiting for." Even Tim's making fun of it. This video makes fun of it.

00:41:58   I just love that they just kind of owned that we've all been waiting for the Mac Mini and it's super unimportant for the most part.

00:42:06   But they're going to make it seem really important for this one presentation for the next four years.

00:42:10   And I love the way they did the video. This totally over the top thing that makes it look like a giant spaceship. It made it look huge, right?

00:42:20   I just love that style so much. Apple spends a lot of money on these videos and many of them I think are way less successful than this. This was a lot of fun. I think it really worked.

00:42:30   It undercuts itself at the end when the audio switches to being whatever the movie making terms for this. Todd Vizzier would tell me. Music that you're hearing as background to the music of the video to music that is emanating from the computer that's distant in the video.

00:42:43   It's big, dramatic, and then it's like, "Oh, here it is. It's a Mac Mini hooked up to a display." And it's playing this video.

00:42:49   Yeah, that was a fun video.

00:42:52   So we had this big discussion about the Mac Mini a while back and we were like, "What are they going to do with it?" Our main concerns were size and ports. And the answer to the question is size is the same and the answer to the port question is they didn't screw it up.

00:43:04   The only things they removed from the ports are the audio input, the SD reader, and the optical capability on the output. Which for an Apple update in 2018 after four years, that's really good.

00:43:18   It could have been way worse. In the grand scheme of things, they adjusted the ports in ways that may or may not be, but it's clear there's not a new philosophy for the ports of the Mac Mini as there were in the laptops.

00:43:31   There's not a philosophy that like, "Well, you know what? We think all small Macs should only have USB-C Thunderbolt ports on them." The philosophy is the same as it's ever been.

00:43:40   Let's put a ton of ports on the back because we don't know what people are going to use these little guys for. And if we have room for HDMI, yeah, it's a weird old connector, but put it there because people hook us up with TVs.

00:43:49   USB-A, is there room for that? Sure, throw it on. Thunderbolt, that's cool too. Let's put one of those two. Let's put four of them on there. It's the same port philosophy as it was before.

00:43:58   Which is an incredible relief because as we discussed, that's what people use these things for, all sorts of random stuff, and it becomes massively less useful if you have some sort of overarching, very narrow philosophy of the ports that are "allowed" on the back of a computer.

00:44:14   Incredible relief. So, thumbs up on the ports. Yeah, which by the way, is the same position they took with the iMac Pro. The iMac Pro has all of the USB ports. It has 4C, 4A, plus Ethernet and everything else.

00:44:28   It also lost its audio input and its optical output, unfortunately. But the iMac Pro showed even a brand new design, they still believe we should give all the ports on a desktop because there's room and people need them.

00:44:42   Yeah, or not like every single port in the universe, but the philosophy is there should be a variety of ports. Even if we think that some of them are old or weird or we're not sure how many people can use them, if there's room for them and it's reasonable, we should put them on there. And they did.

00:44:56   Exactly. And I love, they even called it out, they said, "Customers love having lots of ports." Which, that was hilarious because the laptops and the iOS devices are the complete opposite direction. But I agree, customers love having lots of ports. I wish you could tell the rest of the company then.

00:45:16   This customer does.

00:45:18   Yeah, this Mac Mini, I saw, and there were so many things, like I love that you can spec it up really high if you want to basically make it, like it's basically like a mini iMac Pro. It is space grey of course. It starts out at a really crappy low power chip. The 4-core i3, which I think this is the first time Apple has shipped an i3 branded chip.

00:45:42   i3s are pretty low end. I don't even know much about them but I think they don't have hyper-threading or turbo, is that right?

00:45:48   But it's still faster than the old Mac Mini because it's so ancient. That's the beauty of this update.

00:45:52   Yeah, it's so ancient and the old one was 2-cores and this one was 4-cores. So even though it's an i3, it still has enough other benefits and recency to boost it up. But I would, to me, that actually makes some sense because Mac Minis are often used, mine for instance, mine is used in a capability where I don't need a lot of CPU power. Mine is mostly used as a file server and a low needs, low roll provider for the household.

00:46:20   The Mac Mini is sometimes used in rolls like that or it's used in rolls where it needs a bunch of power. It needs to churn CPU things for running tests or doing builds or who knows what else.

00:46:32   And so it does make sense to have a low power CPU option and I'm really happy they can also offer a 6-core high power one.

00:46:40   One of my big question marks on this is I don't know what the thermal situation is here. Can it sustain a heavy load for a while without throttling like a desktop should? I don't know. I don't know how the fan noise is. I don't know how the enclosure treats that.

00:46:53   Their enclosure design recently in this area has been really good though. I'm pretty confident. It's probably, like the iMac Pro is fantastic for fan noise. The laptops are okay. So I'm assuming this is going to be pretty cool.

00:47:07   I'm really looking forward to hearing more about it. Maybe testing one out or something. I don't know. It's great that the RAM is up to 64 gigs. And the biggest surprise of the day, upgradeable RAM on standard RAM So-Dim sticks.

00:47:23   Oh my god. This is the first time I think ever that Apple has taken a computer that they made less upgradeable and made it more upgradeable. Has that ever happened?

00:47:33   It's on Dim's, right? I've been reading conflicting reports about, so it is upgradeable as in one can upgrade it, but it is not meant to be user serviceable as in you, the person who bought the computer, are not meant to crack it open and do that.

00:47:47   Surely you can because iFixit will help you get the tools and the ability to do that, but I'm not entirely sure they recommend that you do it.

00:47:56   I think mainly it's like, look, if you have a whole bunch of these in a build farm or your Mac Stadium or you have a server or whatever, and the RAM goes bad on it, it's nice to be able to just swap out the RAM at a repair center or wherever you're supposed to do a quote unquote.

00:48:10   But yeah, they mentioned that specifically and it's not in the direction of trying to make this flexible and repairable.

00:48:17   This is also the dawn, as I think our friend Todd Vaziri has pointed out, the dawn of the $4,200 Mac Mini, which is slightly hilarious, but not that.

00:48:26   I mean, it's only hilarious when you compare it to PC pricing because as many people point out, oh, so you spec up this $4,000 Mac Mini? Yeah, it's a $1,500 PC.

00:48:33   As we went to the Intel NUC things, the Mac Mini has not suddenly become a performance bargain, but we're mainly relieved that they didn't mess up the things that people like about the Mac Mini.

00:48:44   They increased the power all around. They let you spec it to a ridiculous degree, which is good because if you have some application that needs a huge amount of RAM, but doesn't need a giant SSD, you can adjust those two things.

00:48:55   Or you need just a little bit of RAM but a really fast CPU. It's configurable for people.

00:49:00   And since we're a captive audience and we don't have a choice of a lot of desktop Macs, having a choice in the small, headless desktop Mac market that we can adjust in some way to our specific needs, even though it is still very, very expensive in the grand scheme of things and way more expensive than an equivalent PowerPC, we're still happy because we're Mac users and we like Macs.

00:49:20   And this option will keep us happy for at least like a year and a half, two years until we start grumbling again.

00:49:27   And just the range of, you mentioned that you can figure it up to like $4,000. And yes, the base model is more expensive than before, but again, I think the era of people buying cheap Mac Minis to be their new desktops as new Mac converts is long over.

00:49:43   And these are much more often used for things like servers and other specialized roles. So I think the price change here is fine.

00:49:51   And the new base model is better specced than the old one was. The old one had a hard drive at its base price and a really slow CPU. And the second you touched any of those specs, you were spending $1,000.

00:50:02   So like it was, I think the pricing is fine. Obviously, like all of Apple's modern pricing, it isn't ideal and everything's kind of creeping up gradually over time, but it's fine.

00:50:12   And I love how it has this massive range where you can spec it out to be that low end server, or you can do things like 10 gig ethernet. Like who would have guessed that?

00:50:22   Yeah, that was amazing to me. I mean, they charge you $100. But still, having that as an option, like if you decide what you need is a huge SSD and 10 gig ethernet, but a wimpy CPU, like it's amazingly flexible in ways that pretty much no other machine is.

00:50:38   Even the iMac Pro, which is basically like they just expect you want everything awesome, right? You can get some weaker stuff and some stronger specs on this and mix and match to the degree that you generally can't elsewhere.

00:50:48   And I thought it was interesting also in the hands-on area that they were showing the Mac Mini in all sorts of different scenarios that I assume that they believe it's really used in.

00:50:58   So they showed it as like a compiler farm for like Xcode or running your test suite or whatever. They showed it in the videos hooked up to a television, which is a thing that a lot of people do with their Mac Minis, right?

00:51:10   They also showed it in the video, actually used it as desktop computer, but I doubt many people use it in that way. Like the mixing and matching and the stacking of them and showing them in racks, which is like, it was not, you know, when Apple introduced the Mac Mini and even when they introduced this latest form factor of it,

00:51:26   I don't think they had in mind like, "Oh, people are going to be putting these in server racks." But MacStadium exists and Apple knows they exist and it's a thing that people do because it's a headless Mac and it's small and compact and you can actually stack them.

00:51:36   So Apple, you know, went with that saying, "We're going to show them stacked. We're going to show them stack sideways." Because it's a thing people do and we want to say, "Yes, we Apple recognize that this is the thing you might want to do with your Mac Minis."

00:51:49   And it's not like they're designing it for that, but they have that use case in mind. They're not going to ruin it for you. They're not going to, say, make it cylindrical, which makes it really hard to rack.

00:51:57   It's, you know, it's Apple embracing what people actually use their computers for rather than what they imagine or would like people to use them for.

00:52:08   We were so worried that we would have to use Ethernet through a dongle. The fact that we can get 10 giga Ethernet built in and they didn't take the power supply and make it external to make the box smaller.

00:52:20   Stuff like that. It's just a good update. If you would have asked, well, I was going to say, if you would have asked me to predict a Mac Mini update, then I realize, "Oh yeah, we have done that for the last few episodes."

00:52:31   But I never would have guessed that a Mac Mini update in 2018 would be this good. And I'm really, really happy that they did it.

00:52:40   Even though I'm probably not going to buy one for a while because my Mac Mini that I use for my home server is fine. Once it flakes out, I will gladly buy one of these.

00:52:47   Real time follow up from Tom Vaziri, the phrases I was looking for. I actually wasn't looking for them. I knew what they were, but I didn't know what order they went in, so it's kind of important.

00:52:54   Diagetic versus non-diagetic. I could not remember which one was the one where the sound is coming from an object on screen and which one is instrumental.

00:53:01   And apparently, "diagetic" means it's coming from an object on screen and "non-diagetic" means it's part of the movie soundtrack. So thank you, Todd.

00:53:08   That was actually Jelly.

00:53:10   Oh, was it?

00:53:11   Yes, which I said in the second.

00:53:13   Sorry. Thank you, Todd. Todd, you knew the answer too. I believe in you. But thank you, Jelly, for actually giving us the answer.

00:53:19   One more thing that I wanted to cover before we left the Mac section is they mentioned with the Air and the Mac Mini as well that they're now being made from 100% recycled aluminum.

00:53:30   And that got a massive applause in the room. And I think that's totally deserved. Like, that's a really cool thing.

00:53:36   I have some questions about some of the details of that, and as a few people on Twitter have pointed out, they did later kind of basically say that Macs are now made from the shavings off of iOS devices.

00:53:47   That is the worst. Like, that's the first thing I thought of. And then they said it in the presentation. I'm like, "Don't highlight that. We're all thinking it, but don't say it."

00:53:55   It's like, we spend lots of money on the highest quality aluminum for the products that we care about. And the shavings that come off, we make Macs out of those.

00:54:03   Like, it's such a painful metaphor for all of the Macs' issues.

00:54:08   It is.

00:54:09   It's interesting, though, the way they phrased it. Like, and I'm not that I'm concerned about this, but I'm, like, you're curious about it.

00:54:15   They said that basically they make a new alloy out of the aluminum shavings. It's not like they're saying we take recycled aluminum and what we end up with is exactly the same as if we had started with fresh aluminum.

00:54:27   Right. And it's not post-consumer recycled. It's post-Apple manufacturing.

00:54:31   Right. But it's interesting that they're saying that, like, that basically I'm imagining if you gave a material scientist two chunks, one of the recycled and one of the regular, they could tell they were different. Like, the Apple phrased it as they're making a different alloy.

00:54:46   So I'm slightly wondering what, you know, is it actually the same? Is it softer, harder, bendier, more brittle, more prone to scratching?

00:54:57   Like, I mean, you saw them in person. I'm assuming they just felt like Apple aluminum laptops, right? That's probably not any variance that we can tell.

00:55:03   Yeah. I mean, like, when you feel them for, like, two seconds, it's kind of hard to get a good idea of that kind of thing.

00:55:08   Yeah. So hopefully, like, and the reason I, I mean, I guess it is a concern. The reason I have a mild concern about this is, you know, it's 100 percent the right thing to do.

00:55:17   And I applaud Apple for doing it, and they should do it for all their products. But historically, as Apple has attempted to decrease the environmental footprint of their products, they've occasionally had struggles with matching the characteristics of the worst for the environment materials.

00:55:32   Think about all the different plastics used for power cords. Think about when they went to lid-free solder and everything.

00:55:37   It takes a little while to get the kinks worked out and to come up with, hopefully, a more environmentally friendly product that is also as durable and as pleasing and has the same performance characteristics as the worst for the environment thing that it replaces.

00:55:54   So hopefully the aluminum is not such a case, and they've nailed it on the first try, I imagine. It's probably closer because, you know, it's a big hunk of metal, and it's not as perhaps as finicky as the, you know, something as delicate as the kind of plastic they use for their cords or whatever.

00:56:11   Although arguably, some would say that no, that no plastic they've ever used for any of their power cords or lightning cables or whatever has ever been durable enough, and that's a separate issue.

00:56:21   So for the MacBook Air on a typical academic rating scale of A through F, how do we feel like that is? Because I went from this is great to this is garbage to eh, it's fine.

00:56:38   So I guess I would rate it like a C plus B minus, and then for the Mac Mini, I think this is an A. This is a good update. Marco, how do you feel about these two so far?

00:56:52   Mac Mini, I'm with you. It's an A. The only thing that keeps from being an A plus is that the pricing gets pretty steep pretty fast, but it's an A.

00:56:59   The MacBook Air, there's still too many unknowns. I think we need to see how these perform in real life. We need to see how things like the battery life should be pretty good actually, given the size of the battery it has.

00:57:12   It's only about 10% smaller than the Escape's battery, but if it has a processor that uses half the power, that's going to be noticeable.

00:57:20   So it should have really good battery life, but performance might be questionable. The keyboard is eh, so I'm going to say based on John's logic of the MacBook Air being the least crappy option of what Apple actually is willing to sell us right now, it's kind of like it gets maybe a B or a C, but at a crappy school.

00:57:41   This grading system is getting more complex by the moment. I give the MacBook Air a B minus, mostly because despite all the complaints we had about it, I think it offers something that its siblings in the lineup don't offer.

00:58:02   The advantage of being a 13-inch MacBook One is that if you use the 7-watt CPU, you can get a lot of battery life when your thing is bigger. I give the mini an A minus, mostly because the pricing is just, I mean it's always been bananas, but it's really bananas for this particular machine.

00:58:24   And I was mostly considering A the top of the scale, but yeah, I'm going to give it an A minus.

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01:00:31   So we had a retail update, and then iPad. I gotta tell you, I'm gonna cut to the end and give my concluding statement up front, which is not exactly what Jon wanted to do, but that's okay.

01:00:42   I wanted an iPad for the first time in a long time. And if you recall, I had a RetinaPad Mini, fourth generation, which they're still selling?

01:00:53   They even named it twice!

01:00:55   Yeah, why?

01:00:56   And they put it on screen. That was the thing that blew me away. Speaking of things that were on screen, at the very beginning of the presentation, they showed...

01:01:04   All the rumors had leaked to the point, especially in the hours before the presentation, we more or less knew what was gonna be announced.

01:01:11   But they had a big product shot that showed their lineup of Macs. And it was the iMac Pro in the background, and it was the 15-inch MacBook Pro and the 13-inch MacBook Pro.

01:01:21   And then it was all arranged in a nice little family portrait, and off to the left was the only computer with a big silver face pointing you, the MacBook Air.

01:01:30   And the Mac Mini was in a picture! Since when do they ever show the Mac Mini in a keynote presentation alongside other products?

01:01:38   It was clear that what they were gonna do is take the two things in this picture that are silver and replace them with ones that now fit in with the family.

01:01:45   Now the Mac Mini is space gray, and now the MacBook Air has the same black screen face. So that's how you could tell, early in the presentation, if you didn't already know, that they were gonna replace the MacBook Air and the Mac Mini.

01:01:54   In the iPad presentation, I believe they showed the iPad Mini on screen briefly.

01:02:00   They did.

01:02:01   When they were saying, "Here is our iPad lineup. We have the iPad Mini and the iPad, and then we have the two Pro models."

01:02:07   And for a moment I was like, "By showing the iPad Mini, are they telling me they're..." No, of course. And they didn't. They didn't do anything with it.

01:02:13   It's still there. It slid off the left side of the slide, never to be seen again. Mentioned one more time in the presentation is the iPad Mini 4, and anyway, it remains a product in their lineup.

01:02:22   So yeah, so I have an iPad Mini 4 that actually, hand on heart, I'm not sure where it is, because I haven't seen it in a while.

01:02:30   I'm sure it's here somewhere, but darn if I know where.

01:02:33   It's too small. You need a bigger one.

01:02:35   Yeah, maybe that's the problem. But these new iPads, they feel like modern Apple... I'm going to say computers, which kind of makes me feel a little weird, but modern Apple computers more than the iPads that preceded them do.

01:02:52   They ditched the home button, which looks archaic now. They're edge-to-edge screen, for the most part. No real big bezel, for the most part. So they look and felt like modern Apple devices in a way that I don't think the iPad has.

01:03:09   But even the iPad Pro just didn't look as modern to me once the iPhone X came into existence. All the iPads looked old and busted to me, and these do not. These look great, they feel great, they're super thin.

01:03:23   I love the flat edges around the outside. I'm trying to figure out an excuse, trying to convince myself that I need a 10-inch or 11-inch iPad Pro. But I was very impressed. These things look great and make me want an iPad again.

01:03:42   Here's the problem with this iPad Pro announcement and my problem with my feelings about it. I look at their presentation of what they chose to emphasize, what they spent time on, what they bragged about, and what the reality of these products is.

01:03:57   And as excited as I'm getting about it, my suspicion, and we'll find out shortly, is that the new iPad Pros are essentially faster in all meaningful ways than every single laptop Apple sells.

01:04:12   Which is, again, if you look at this thing, an 8-core A12, 120Hz screen, pencil support, we would kill to get these kind of specs and these kind of capabilities in any kind of thing that runs Mac OS.

01:04:32   I believe someone was saying this has 6GB of RAM, which is double what the previous ones did. The iPad Pros are tickling all of the "be dazzled by Pro hardware" stuff. They used to be a staple of Apple's presentations. Sometimes they tell you about the amazing thing you can get at a great price, and sometimes they say, "This is going to cost you an arm and a leg." But it's amazing.

01:04:55   It is incredibly powerful, it has new capabilities, everything about it is incredibly fast, we're going to brag to you about how fast it is and what it can do, and it's in a cool new form factor. It was pushing all of those buttons.

01:05:06   And certainly I want one, right? But also I'm thinking, how amazing would an Apple laptop be with these internals? And Apple would say, "What the hell do you need a laptop for? We got a cool keyboard for this? It's practically a laptop already."

01:05:22   But you know, me with the OS thing and all the rumors about what iOS 13 will have that got kicked out of iOS 12 that may make this an even more amazing computer.

01:05:32   But yeah, setting aside my uncomfortable feelings about how I wish the laptop line was as powerful as these iPads, consider it an isolation, these are amazing iPads.

01:05:42   This is what we've come to expect from Apple in the phone line, and now I feel like this is the first iPad that has received as much attention as the phones do.

01:05:52   This new iPad is so much better in every possible way than all of its already pretty good predecessors. That's the feeling we get very often in phones, like the iPhone 10 just makes the iPhone 7 look like junk.

01:06:05   Look at this and you look at the old iPads, you just fling them out the window. It's slower, it's uglier, I don't know where to put the pencil, it doesn't have a USB-C port, the speakers are worse, the screen is worse, everything is just like these totally eclipse all the previous iPads.

01:06:22   And they're lust objects, they're things that if you're into iPads, and even if you're not that into iPads like Casey, you see this and you want one because they press all the nerd buttons.

01:06:33   And if you can't figure out, like to Marco's point that he was saying before in Slack, maybe you're not that into iPads but you're like "I wish I was because this thing is awesome."

01:06:40   That's exactly it.

01:06:42   Is this faster than every single laptop Apple sells? Maybe. We'll find out soon. Certainly it's faster than a hell of a lot of them.

01:06:50   Yeah, I mean you cannot miss the contrast between the excitement and the energy and the mood around the laptop updates versus the iPad updates. Like, the Macs, the laptops seem like they are updated inconsistently, really incrementally, and almost begrudgingly.

01:07:12   Like it seems like Apple doesn't even want to update the laptops and the updates they do to them have very often come with significant regressions or as I said earlier, significant compromises.

01:07:24   Whereas the iPad updates are just blowing out the water like to the one before. The iPad updates are just like all good and every year they're like these massive, awesome, major new upgrades to the iPad.

01:07:38   And it's kind of sad as a Mac preferring portable person, but as you said John, it makes me want to use the iPad for more things.

01:07:49   And it's hard because the software still isn't there for a lot of the stuff I do and a lot of the ways I prefer to work.

01:07:54   And a lot of those I don't think are going to change anytime soon.

01:07:58   And it's unwise to buy an iPad now thinking that oh well in the future this iPad will get much better in the ways I care about. Like, you know, buy it now for what it is now.

01:08:09   Don't be relying on iOS 13 to maybe make it into a Mac for you.

01:08:14   But it is striking, like the massive difference. And like wow, these iPads, every iPad update for the last forever has been just a ridiculously awesome update with huge advances, no regressions, no compromises.

01:08:31   And then you have the Mac line which is full of regressions and compromises in some really, you know, kind of tepid updates.

01:08:39   Like the Mac line almost feels like they're punishing you for being a customer.

01:08:42   The laptop line is too big.

01:08:44   Yes, the Mac laptop line feels like they're punishing you for being a customer.

01:08:47   And the iOS line is just like full of love and like the most amazing work that, and it's just like I want so badly to move more of my portable needs to the iPad.

01:08:59   I just don't, I don't think I can yet. Like I don't think, like Stephen Hackett made a great argument for this on, there's a, if you're a Relay FM member, there's a show that members get to hear called Fusion.

01:09:11   And they did an episode today about this event and reacting to it. And you should be a Relay FM member to hear this episode.

01:09:18   Just go become a Relay FM member because it's worth it.

01:09:21   And the analogy Stephen made, which I think is excellent that I'm going to rip off now, is that it's almost like you have like a supercar that has just an incredible engine performance but like can't put the power down on the road.

01:09:35   You know, like it just doesn't have like the tires or whatever to put that power down. That's how I feel about the iPad.

01:09:41   Whereas like the iPads have incredible capabilities, incredible hardware, incredibly sophisticated frameworks and everything.

01:09:49   But there's still fundamental parts of the software, fundamental limitations of the OS and the way work has to get done, the limitations it has, the apps that are available,

01:09:59   that just make it really hard for a lot of us to take advantage of all that power that they have.

01:10:05   And over time that line is moving, you know, it's moving down, like we are able to do more things with the iPad over time,

01:10:13   but it still is very far from what you can do with a Mac in certain industries for certain needs.

01:10:19   And a lot of people have at least one of those needs.

01:10:22   So I hope so badly that iOS on the iPad catches up more to where the Mac is because there's no question that if you can get done on the iPad what you need to get done,

01:10:34   it is the way better portable computer than any Mac laptops.

01:10:39   To tweak Steven's analogy a little bit, I don't think it's so much that you can't get the power down.

01:10:46   I run those car analogies like that you just end up spinning the wheels or whatever.

01:10:50   Because it does, it takes that power and it uses it.

01:10:54   It's just that, this is getting worse, I hate car analogies, the road doesn't go where we want to go.

01:10:59   It can get the power down.

01:11:01   Because when it's showing Photoshop it's using all of its power to do that Photoshop demo.

01:11:05   It's just that the road doesn't go where we want it to go.

01:11:07   Where we want it to go is a particular work style, a particular application.

01:11:11   Even Photoshop, I was thinking about this when I was watching the demos,

01:11:15   there are tons of people out there who use Photoshop professionally right now.

01:11:20   Let's say those people came of age in their profession at a time before iPads,

01:11:27   or for whatever reason they do their work not on an iPad.

01:11:30   They use Photoshop but they do work not on an iPad.

01:11:32   Chances are really good that those people, the way they use Photoshop,

01:11:36   and you've seen lots of people using Photoshop or use it professionally,

01:11:39   is they either have a tablet with a bunch of buttons and/or use a keyboard

01:11:44   and so they're looking at a desktop computer, they're hitting keys on a keyboard or a tablet,

01:11:47   and they're using a stylus.

01:11:49   And that's a lot of input.

01:11:51   They know all the single-letter shortcuts for all the Photoshop stuff,

01:11:54   they have customized their tablets to have these hardware buttons that do what they want.

01:11:59   There's just way more input variability.

01:12:01   And as nice as it looks to be able to sketch on an iPad Pro or whatever,

01:12:05   and even with that touch thing on the screen,

01:12:07   that is an efficiency downgrade for people who are experts at hitting the 17 keys they need to hit

01:12:12   to do Photoshop quickly on desktop PC.

01:12:15   So if you told those people, "Hey, we're going to take away your desktop PC,"

01:12:18   whether it be a Mac or a Windows PC or whatever,

01:12:20   "We're going to take that away and we're going to replace it with an iPad."

01:12:22   They're going to say, "Well, the screen is smaller."

01:12:24   "Oh, you're going to hook up an external screen."

01:12:26   "Well, but then going to hook up a keyboard?"

01:12:27   "Well, then so you've got an iPad with a keyboard and an external screen attached

01:12:30   and it's like you're just trying to recreate a PC."

01:12:32   So that's an example of a lot of power, but this thing,

01:12:38   this road doesn't go exactly where they want it to go.

01:12:40   Now there's a whole new generation of people who are growing up right now

01:12:43   who use Photoshop who never got used to a Wacom tablet and a keyboard and a desktop display,

01:12:47   and that just seems like a crazy Rube Goldberg machine.

01:12:49   Why wouldn't I just draw directly on the screen?

01:12:51   And they're going to be used to the iPad,

01:12:52   and they still probably want a bigger iPad at some point or whatever.

01:12:55   But I think there's still this bifurcation in, for lack of a better word,

01:13:00   workflows or ways of working.

01:13:03   We know from our own friends who are into the iPad lifestyle,

01:13:06   and they have workflows entirely built around iOS.

01:13:08   So it's just setting aside the things which exist where you just can't do on an iPad still for a variety of reasons.

01:13:16   Even if you could do it on an iPad, like again, Photoshop, it's available on both now or will it be next year.

01:13:21   You can do it on both. Why would you prefer doing it on a desktop?

01:13:24   It's like, "Well, watch me use Photoshop and see how much my hand is hitting these keys on the keyboard

01:13:28   and see how I use my tablet and see how I use my gigantic screen."

01:13:31   That's why I'm still doing it here, and someone else is saying,

01:13:33   "Oh, I never got used to those things. I'm just doing it entirely on my iPad."

01:13:36   So I think we still have a ways to go for the iPad revolution Apple wants.

01:13:41   And regardless of how the lines stack up against each other,

01:13:44   it's not as if iPads have to compete with Mac stuff for people doing creative stuff.

01:13:49   They have to compete against Windows PCs too.

01:13:50   It's like if you're going to do audio editing,

01:13:52   unless they have an awesome audio editing application on the iPad with awesome keyboard support

01:13:57   that supports a bigger screen and actually gives you a better experience than using a Windows PC

01:14:01   with your favorite audio editing application or a Mac for that matter,

01:14:05   it's still not going to win that race.

01:14:07   So we're still awaiting the changeover, I suppose,

01:14:13   when the people who prefer to work the old way and travel those old roads are retired or dead,

01:14:19   and the new way is all there is, and maybe they don't know about the old way,

01:14:25   so a giant iPad is fine for them.

01:14:28   Speaking of audio editing, Jason Snell was 95% ecstatic about these new iPads

01:14:36   and 5% devastated because he often uses, what is it, Ferrite to edit podcasts on the go,

01:14:43   and there is no headphone jack in the new iPads.

01:14:47   And so he is really annoyed because he wants to be able to do podcast editing with no latency whatsoever,

01:14:55   and I guess his experience with AirPods is that there's enough latency there that it becomes frustrating for him,

01:15:00   and so now he's going to have to use a USB-C set of headphones or a USB-C to headphone dongle.

01:15:07   Nine dollars from Apple.

01:15:09   Yeah, and the headphone jack thing, this is the one downside besides the incredible price on these.

01:15:15   Oh my God.

01:15:17   It's only incredible if you think of it as an iPad.

01:15:19   If you think of it as a laptop with no keyboard, it starts to make more sense.

01:15:22   Yeah, the configuration that I would probably get, which is the 11-inch with keyboard and pencil, 256, was $1400.

01:15:33   Yeah, but you cannot buy a $1400 Apple laptop that's anywhere near this performance.

01:15:38   That's true.

01:15:39   Again, I haven't seen benchmarks, but go try to find, give Apple $1400 and try to get a laptop that comes close to the specs and performance of the thing you just described.

01:15:46   Yeah, that's true.

01:15:47   Granted, it's better as a laptop than having a floppy keyboard and all those other things, but it's no contest in terms of the power and capabilities.

01:15:55   Like, Face ID, 120Hz, True Tone, all this amazing light weight and everything, this thing is an absolute monster.

01:16:03   A better keyboard? The smart keyboard on the iPads is significantly nicer to type on, in my opinion, than the ones in the MacBook Pro.

01:16:11   Yeah, I wouldn't go that far. I know you like it better, but I like the laptop ones.

01:16:15   I'm not saying it's good, but I'm saying it's better. Although, I wish it was backlit, but otherwise...

01:16:20   I'm with Casey that I like the feel of the laptops, which they're reliable.

01:16:24   Getting back to our earlier topic about how these compare to how the Mac is treated, one of the most important things about the iPad line in general is, you know, in this update, and basically all the updates before that in recent memory,

01:16:37   every update shows me that Apple has learned from their past products, which were themselves good. I mean, I have the original 9.7" Pro, which I think was a fantastic iPad.

01:16:47   Remember when it came out, we were like, "Well, this is the pinnacle. This is just the ultimate iPad. It's great."

01:16:52   Every new one that comes out, there's something about it that shows, "Well, we made this awesome product last time, and people loved it, but there were a few things that we could tweak."

01:17:01   And then they tweak them. And so this one, like, "There's no place to put the pencil." No, there's a place to put the pencil. "The stupid cap is annoying." Don't worry about it. There's no cap anymore.

01:17:09   "It rolls off the table. It's got a flat side." "The keyboard." "The smart connector." "It's kind of awkward to use at certain angles."

01:17:15   Well, now we have two angles, one for when you're looking down and one for when something...

01:17:18   It's like, everything in their new product shows, "We heard you about the last product, and in a timely fashion, we give you a new product that does some amazing stuff you maybe never even thought of,

01:17:28   but also, all the feedback you had about the old one, we incorporate that." I'm amazed at the physical characteristics in terms of how many iterations they do of the back case and the front case,

01:17:39   and dealing with the pencil and the connectors and where the speakers are and where the camera is and orientations. Every single iPad, they get slightly better.

01:17:46   There are minor regressions here and there where, like, "Oh, this case is bad," or, "They only put the front case and not the back," or, "This sleeve was awkward," and, you know.

01:17:53   But they learn from their mistakes. That's what you want to see. Forward progress. There's a new set of mistakes. Maybe the headphone jack is not a great idea.

01:18:01   Maybe there are other issues about this, which I think we'll get to in a bit when I talk about the physical form factor of the thing, but that kind of progress is so heartening to see.

01:18:10   And I feel like the same thing with the iMac, right? Assuming the iMac Pro was their new Pro computer, that they listened to Pros and said, "We're not going to slim it down or whatever."

01:18:23   The laptop line, which we were constantly harping on, seems either not to learn from the mistakes or to learn on a much longer timeline, right?

01:18:31   Because it wasn't that long ago that we got iPads with the pencil and it had all those complaints about it, and it seems like only a couple years later, we have an entirely new iPad, totally reimagined, which addresses a whole bunch of the problems we have with the old one, including very, you know, picky and things like the, "Oh, well, I'm not really happy with the angle of the smart keyboard," or, "The magnets in the smart keyboard, like, sometimes they're, you know, it gets loose," or whatever.

01:18:56   So now the magnets are stronger, and now there's multiple angles, and it attaches in a different way. It's just, you know, this is not to say that their solutions to this one are perfect.

01:19:04   I'm sure there'll be specific issues and complaints, and a lot of it owes, you know, if you look at this, it looks a lot like the Microsoft Surface in many aspects, right?

01:19:11   Because, you know, it's not like Apple solving these for the first time, but they're listening to their customers. They're looking at their products and thinking about how they could be better, and they've come up with a new product that improves upon all that stuff.

01:19:21   That's so heartening to see, and it's, again, making me jealous for the Mac line.

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01:21:18   Casey and I got a chance to play with these new iPads briefly in the hands-on area and they're just so good.

01:21:23   I get to play with the pencil, the keyboard. I spent a lot of time with the 11-inch, only a little bit of time with the 12.9.

01:21:29   I couldn't get too much with it because there was this beautiful Italian man in front of me, but I didn't want to interrupt.

01:21:34   But the 11-inch was fantastic. And I think one of the dilemmas that I think a lot of people will have now,

01:21:44   the 12.9 didn't feel as ridiculous as the previous one. It didn't feel too big. It didn't feel too crazy.

01:21:51   Now maybe that's just size inflation over time in the sense that maybe we just figure,

01:21:57   like when the 12.9 first came out, it was like when the iPhone 6 Plus first came out

01:22:03   and it was the first giant iPhone most people had ever held and it just felt ridiculous.

01:22:07   And now that feels normal. I feel like that's part of how the 12.9 felt.

01:22:12   But also the original 12.9 was really big and it was kind of hard to hold for a while and everything.

01:22:17   The new 12.9 is not small, but the difference is smaller between that and the 11.

01:22:24   And it is noticeably smaller than it was before. And it no longer feels or looks extreme or crazy.

01:22:31   Now it feels like a big iPad. And I would be surprised, we have a number of friends who are like real iPad power users,

01:22:38   like Mike and Federico and Jason and a whole bunch of people.

01:22:42   And a lot of them will have, they'll either alternate between the two or they'll actually own both the 12.9 and the 10.5 or some other smaller one.

01:22:52   Because the 12.9 is someone we'll do for like travel or whatever else.

01:22:55   I bet this generation a lot of these people just get the 12.9 and are happy with just that because it is,

01:23:03   like if you're going to have a 12.9 at all, I think the justification for also having a smaller iPad is greatly reduced now.

01:23:11   Not to mention the fact that these cost $1400 when you spec them up.

01:23:15   But the 12.9 is actually I think a much more accessible and reasonable option to a lot more people than it was before.

01:23:24   I would even maybe consider, like if I was an iPad power user, which I'm not,

01:23:28   but if I got to the point where I could do a lot of my work on the iPad, I would get a 12.9 because it is that much better.

01:23:35   Yeah, I'm considering it too. Just because who doesn't want a bigger screen and if it's, I have to see what it's like.

01:23:42   And also the keyboard, if you have a keyboard with it, is also going to be a little bit roomier.

01:23:46   Because it can be because the thing is longer. It's definitely, I'm going to have to check them out in the store.

01:23:50   Not that I'm, I'm not planning to buy a new iPad, but of course I want one. Like who wouldn't want one? It's awesome.

01:23:55   One of the things about this design, it's the edges are straight.

01:24:00   It's like an iPhone 5. People can keep going to the iPhone 4, but it's more like the iPhone 5.

01:24:05   Like it is like an aluminum bathtub with right angle sides.

01:24:08   And a lot of times, if you look at the laptops, like take the MacBook escape, or any of the MacBooks you've seen lately,

01:24:19   very often, I mean part of the thing to make them seem thinner is that the edge, the flat edge that you see on Apple laptops,

01:24:26   is thinner than the height of the entire laptop. Right? It's not like, you know, whatever that flat portion is,

01:24:32   like, oh that's how thick it is. Well it's not. There's a curved section that goes underneath.

01:24:36   And part of that is to make it seem thinner than it is. Because if you had flat slab sides, it would look thicker,

01:24:41   even though it would actually be the same thickness. But there's another super important reason that tons of products,

01:24:47   including almost all of Apple's historically, that sit flat on a table, don't have right angle sides,

01:24:52   just straight up right angle sides that go all the way down. That they have that curve.

01:24:56   And that's so you can pick the freaking things up. Because if you made an Apple laptop, or any other device that had,

01:25:01   that was made of aluminum, perfectly machined, flat, blah blah blah, where the sides were straight all the way down,

01:25:07   you'd go to try to pick it up, and you wouldn't realize that you do this, but you'd go to try to pick it up with one hand,

01:25:11   you have an expectation that you can get your fingertips under the edge of the device.

01:25:15   And if it went straight down to the table, you couldn't do that. You'd try to grab it,

01:25:20   and you'd just be pinching at this little right angle corner on the top of the thing.

01:25:24   You can't pick up a laptop that way. Like, you have to get your fingers underneath it somehow.

01:25:28   So maybe you'd push it sideways, or maybe you'd hope that it had rubber feet that elevated enough,

01:25:32   and you'd get your fingernails underneath it or whatever. It would be awkward.

01:25:36   The fact that you never have to think about this with Apple laptops, that's called good design.

01:25:40   Like, they make them that way on purpose. Not just for ventilation, not just to make it look thinner on the side,

01:25:45   but because it's really important you can't freaking pick the things up if they didn't do that.

01:25:49   So, when they made a phone like that, how did the iPhone 5 or 4 work?

01:25:53   Those work because you can pinch it. You can have one finger on one side and a thumb on the other,

01:25:57   and you can pick the whole thing up. You're never trying to pick it up from one edge. Try that.

01:26:01   Put an iPhone 5 down on the table and try to pick it up without having fingers on opposing sides anywhere.

01:26:06   Like, just from one edge. It's not a fun game to play.

01:26:09   The only thing that might help you, not in the iPhone 5's case, but in the case of this thing,

01:26:14   I made a joke on Twitter that the whole reason they had that gigantic camera bump

01:26:17   is so that you finally have some fighting chance of getting your fingernails underneath the thing

01:26:21   to pull it off the table. But Casey, who was there, tells me that actually,

01:26:25   despite the huge size of the camera bump, it doesn't really help that much,

01:26:28   and it still is kind of difficult to get off on the table.

01:26:30   So, Casey, can you fill me in on exactly how difficult it's going to be

01:26:33   for me to pick up a caseless new iPad Pro from a table?

01:26:37   Well, you know, one of the things about going today was that

01:26:41   it is clear that I was wholly unprepared for being there.

01:26:45   Because once I got to the hands-on area, I didn't know what to do with myself.

01:26:50   Obviously I went to play with all the things, but I didn't...

01:26:53   You take your hands and you put them on the products.

01:26:56   That's right, which is what I did.

01:26:58   It's right there on the name.

01:26:59   Yeah, it's exactly what it says on the tin.

01:27:02   But no, it was funny because...

01:27:04   Marco gives you that advice, to put your hands on it, but if you recall,

01:27:07   the last time I did that at the WWC and iMac Pros,

01:27:11   I went straight to the iMac Pro and I grabbed the mouse and keyboard

01:27:15   and an Apple person practically slapped the back of my hand and said,

01:27:18   "I'm sorry, you're not allowed to touch these devices."

01:27:20   So don't be fooled.

01:27:21   I actually had a moment like that.

01:27:23   My very first thing, I went up to the MacBook Air,

01:27:25   because all the iPads were mobbed when we first got in there,

01:27:27   and no one was at the Air, so I went over to the Airs.

01:27:30   And the first thing I wanted to do was pick it up.

01:27:33   And so I picked it up and I was able to do that.

01:27:35   But then what I do when I'm in an Apple store,

01:27:37   when I want to see a new laptop and experience it for the first time,

01:27:40   is I pick it up and I close it.

01:27:42   And then I see how it feels when it's closed.

01:27:44   So I picked it up, I'm looking around,

01:27:46   and Apple person's fine with that.

01:27:47   As soon as I close it, they're like, "Oh no, you can't do that!"

01:27:49   And I'm like, "Oh, sorry, jeez!"

01:27:51   They open it back up and nothing happened.

01:27:53   They didn't have to log back in or anything.

01:27:55   I don't know why I wasn't allowed to close it,

01:27:57   but I know they're very particular about things like this.

01:27:59   I didn't push any more boundaries while I was there.

01:28:03   Yeah, but to more directly answer your question, John,

01:28:06   or really to answer your question at all, John,

01:28:08   at one point I was using, I believe it was the 12-inch,

01:28:11   and I took it out of the keyboard folio case, whatever it's called,

01:28:16   and I put it on the table up to--

01:28:18   The smart keyboard folio.

01:28:19   Thank you.

01:28:20   And I think it might have been upside down, so maybe I lied to you.

01:28:22   I can't remember if it was upside down or right side up,

01:28:24   so maybe the camera bump would have helped.

01:28:25   But one way or another, I put the thing down on either its belly or its back,

01:28:30   and I went to grab it, not thinking anything.

01:28:31   I'm like, "I'll just grab it, pick it up."

01:28:33   And then I was struggling.

01:28:35   It wasn't the sort of thing where it took a couple of tries to get it.

01:28:39   I had to actually deliberately try to dig it up off of the table.

01:28:46   It was really surprising.

01:28:48   Now, maybe I'm making a mountain out of nothing.

01:28:50   Maybe it was just I was being a klutz that one moment.

01:28:53   But it was striking to me in that moment

01:28:55   that it was actually very difficult to get it up off the table,

01:28:58   and I couldn't really figure out why until you had said,

01:29:02   "Oh, well, typically these things are curved, so you have something to pinch at."

01:29:05   And again, maybe you'll get this in your hands,

01:29:08   and maybe it won't be that bad at all.

01:29:10   But it was surprising to me that it was fairly difficult to pick it up.

01:29:14   Now, in the grand scheme of things, I would expect if I were to have one of these,

01:29:18   it would always be in the Smart Keyboard Folio, whatever it's called.

01:29:22   And so it wouldn't be a problem.

01:29:25   But it was surprising how difficult it was to pick up.

01:29:30   But that being said, it felt amazing in the hand.

01:29:33   Every time I look at a 12-5, 12-9, whatever the hell it is,

01:29:37   iPad from before today, every time I see one, I think to myself,

01:29:42   "My word, that is a large iPad."

01:29:46   It's like when I used to see the Plus Club.

01:29:49   Like, that is a big phone. Well, here, that is a big iPad.

01:29:52   But granted, I was walking between different stations.

01:29:56   It wasn't like I was going next door between these different stations.

01:29:59   But when I walked across this little room from an 11-inch to a 12-inch,

01:30:03   it was surprising how little difference I saw between them.

01:30:08   And the 12-inch looked much closer to the 11 than I would have expected.

01:30:13   And additionally, they felt great in the hand.

01:30:16   It didn't feel particularly heavy.

01:30:17   I mean, admittedly, I was not holding these for more than a few moments.

01:30:20   But it didn't feel terribly heavy.

01:30:22   They looked great, felt great.

01:30:25   The keyboard cover felt particularly good.

01:30:29   I've never owned an iPad Pro. I've only played with them a handful of times.

01:30:33   But the way I recall the iPad Pro, and jump in when you're ready, fellas,

01:30:36   is that the keyboard cover was lumpy because part of it had two folds

01:30:40   and the rest had one or something along those lines.

01:30:42   Definitely true.

01:30:43   And that did not appear to be the case here, which I loved.

01:30:47   The magnets were incredible everywhere.

01:30:51   For the pencil, they were extremely strong.

01:30:53   For the keyboard cover, I would almost say for the keyboard cover,

01:30:55   they might have even been too strong.

01:30:57   So when you sit it in one of the two different positions,

01:30:59   you know, the two different angles, I was struggling,

01:31:01   again, probably just because I'd never done it before,

01:31:03   but I was struggling to pull it up enough to move it to the other position,

01:31:07   which actually is, I think, a good problem because this way you know it's stable.

01:31:12   But everything about these iPads just felt great.

01:31:15   The display looked great.

01:31:16   Now, I don't have your eye, Jon.

01:31:18   I'm not as discerning as you when it comes to these things.

01:31:20   But the display looked great.

01:31:22   Face ID seemed to work real well, even in this super crowded room

01:31:26   where everyone was like, you know, shoulder to shoulder with each other.

01:31:29   I mean, obviously it got confused from time to time

01:31:31   because it would look at the wrong face or whatever,

01:31:33   but it worked really well.

01:31:34   As people have pointed out, it actually says to you

01:31:37   when you're holding your finger over the sensor array.

01:31:41   I forget exactly what the phrasing is, but it basically says your camera is covered.

01:31:44   There you go.

01:31:45   And I did not notice at the time,

01:31:47   but I've since seen that they actually point at the sensor array.

01:31:51   Like, there's an arrow on screen pointing at the sensor array

01:31:53   to let you know that's the finger that's covering everything up.

01:31:56   I also liked, I think they showed this on the keynote, but maybe I'm wrong.

01:32:01   When you take the pencil to a locked iPad,

01:32:04   as long as it can scan your face, it will jump directly into notes

01:32:08   to let you sketch a note or whatever the case may be.

01:32:10   The little double tap on the pencil to swap between different tools

01:32:16   worked really well.

01:32:17   In settings, you can choose between different things that that does.

01:32:21   I guess just for notes, you can toggle to eraser,

01:32:24   toggle to the last tool you used,

01:32:25   toggle a color palette, which was interesting.

01:32:27   Everything about these iPads looked great,

01:32:29   and I forget if it was you or Marco.

01:32:31   I think it was Marco that said,

01:32:32   "I just wish more of the things I did on a computer worked on an iPad."

01:32:38   And I bet I could make a lot of them work,

01:32:41   but man, I really want an iPad for the first time in a very, very long time.

01:32:46   The other thing you mentioned about the keyboard doubling up,

01:32:48   yet another example of the past.

01:32:51   It was great that we had the cool keyboard that people really liked

01:32:53   for the old iPad, but that was a slight war.

01:32:55   It was like, "That's kind of funny when you put the keyboard case

01:32:57   on this one side as lumpier."

01:32:58   Solved in this generation.

01:33:00   They addressed it.

01:33:01   And actually getting back to the camera bump briefly,

01:33:05   I think the folio case thing, with or without the keyboard,

01:33:11   the fact that there is a front and a back surface.

01:33:14   The back surface is important because that's where the smart connector is now,

01:33:17   as all the rumors said.

01:33:18   It's kind of in the middle.

01:33:19   It's kind of weird how the keyboard thing connects.

01:33:21   It's not on the edge.

01:33:22   It's in the middle, like dorsally.

01:33:25   It's like the spine, right?

01:33:26   But it just so happens that the keyboard cover goes down that far enough

01:33:28   to catch the connector and charge it.

01:33:30   It's covered on the back and on the front with a single layer.

01:33:35   The fact that the covers are made of that squishy kind of whatever-that-is material

01:33:39   with a little thin edge means that if you put it on its back

01:33:43   or on its front with the cover or the keyboard on it,

01:33:47   even though it flattens out the camera bump,

01:33:50   I suspect you will have an easier time getting your fingers underneath it.

01:33:54   Because that's what you want.

01:33:55   You just need just enough leverage to lift it up enough

01:33:57   for you to shove your fingers underneath it,

01:33:59   because then you can grab it with fingers underneath and thumb on top

01:34:02   with a single hand.

01:34:03   That's what you do with laptops and all sorts of other things

01:34:05   when you pick it up with one hand off the table.

01:34:07   So it is a surface that evens out the camera bump,

01:34:12   makes it easier to pick up off the table potentially

01:34:15   than a bare thing even with the camera bump,

01:34:18   because you have that squishier area and that little fin

01:34:20   that you can put your fingers under.

01:34:21   It doesn't make it lumpy on the top if you have a keyboard

01:34:24   because it's uniform thickness all the way through.

01:34:26   And also, I think this is also important,

01:34:28   it doesn't go around the edges.

01:34:30   So it's not like your iPad is inside a tub of any kind.

01:34:34   It's like a sandwich.

01:34:35   The edges are still just the bare aluminum.

01:34:38   So it doesn't make your iPad wider.

01:34:40   You know, you've all had experience if you put an iPad in a case

01:34:43   and this beautiful, svelte thing that you bought suddenly feels chunkier,

01:34:46   which, by the way, is what you want if you have it for kids.

01:34:48   You want to put it in the world's craziest, chunky case.

01:34:50   But for an adult who can take care of things,

01:34:54   it's nice to be able to have all the benefits of the protection.

01:34:57   Oh, you don't have to worry about putting it down.

01:34:58   It's not going to scratch.

01:35:00   It's evened out with the camera bump.

01:35:01   It's made easier to pick up.

01:35:03   Maybe you get a keyboard as part of the bargain,

01:35:05   but it doesn't make it any wider or taller.

01:35:07   And so I think it will make it not feel as bulky

01:35:10   and make you not feel that this beautiful, naked robotic core

01:35:13   that you got is suddenly buried inside this rubberized tomb.

01:35:17   It's more like you're just putting this beautiful neoprene sandwich,

01:35:21   protective sandwich, around your thing.

01:35:23   And it's a sandwich that potentially gives you a keyboard.

01:35:26   I really, again, having not seen or touched this in person,

01:35:30   in the abstract, I am in love with the new -- what did you call it?

01:35:33   The new wardrobe for the iPads?

01:35:35   Not to mention the fact that there's a place to put the pencil

01:35:37   and the flat pencil and everything.

01:35:38   I'm in love with the iPad wardrobe.

01:35:40   Yeah, so I, as a full-time smart keyboard user,

01:35:44   and as I mentioned last time,

01:35:45   the smart keyboard transformed the iPad into something

01:35:49   that I actually use on a regular basis,

01:35:51   because it is always -- not only does it help text input greatly

01:35:56   and dramatically improve my ability to use an iPad,

01:35:58   but also it is a really good stand to have it on the counter in my kitchen

01:36:03   where it spends most of its time, or on the dining room table,

01:36:05   or on the couch at night.

01:36:06   Like, it's just really, really good.

01:36:08   And so I've used the 10.5 smart keyboard for a year now,

01:36:12   or a year and a half, used the 9.7 before that.

01:36:15   They're wonderful.

01:36:16   I did have a chance to play with the smart keyboard folio today

01:36:21   on the new iPads, and in some ways it's worse.

01:36:24   I think in most ways it's probably better.

01:36:26   It's the kind of thing that I'm going to need just more time with it.

01:36:28   I'm going to do things like sit down with it on my lap,

01:36:32   because that's one area where the old one kind of fell over,

01:36:34   literally sometimes.

01:36:35   And I didn't feel like they would probably let me sit on the floor,

01:36:41   cross-legged with the iPad in the hands-on area, so I didn't try that.

01:36:45   But there's a lot about the old one that it wasn't very good on laps.

01:36:50   It would tip over.

01:36:51   It would tip back or forward, depending on how you were sitting.

01:36:53   It was very good on counters, but that was about it.

01:36:56   The new one has these two angles.

01:36:58   The steeper of the two angles, which is the new one,

01:37:01   that didn't exist on the previous one, is very steep.

01:37:04   That did not work for me at all at table height,

01:37:08   but it wasn't designed for that.

01:37:09   It was designed for lap use, so I'll have to try that sometime

01:37:12   and see how that actually works, if I get one of these.

01:37:14   As Jon mentioned, the smart keyboard folio does cover both sides fully.

01:37:19   Before, the previous one would only cover a little bit of the back

01:37:24   when it was open, and when it was closed, it would cover none of the back.

01:37:27   It was basically just a big front side cover that unfolded.

01:37:30   The magnets are pretty strong.

01:37:33   The one thing I didn't like about it that I made immediate note of

01:37:37   is that sometimes, I keep the smart keyboard on my iPad almost always,

01:37:42   and sometimes, if I'm sitting on the couch just browsing the web at night,

01:37:46   I will flip it back and just hold the iPad like a regular iPad

01:37:49   with no keyboard attached, as if it was smart cover that you flipped back.

01:37:52   You can do this with the new smart keyboard, but it's worse.

01:37:56   Not only was it kind of a clumsy move to flip it back,

01:37:59   but also the keys, when it's flipped back, now face outward,

01:38:04   so that when you're holding it, your hands are on the keys.

01:38:09   Now, it's smart enough not to activate the keys when it's in this mode,

01:38:12   so you don't have to worry about accidental input,

01:38:14   but it just feels weird to me to be holding the front of a keyboard

01:38:18   with the back of my hands as I'm holding my iPad.

01:38:20   That's kind of like--and I know these kinds of things are really tricky to design,

01:38:25   because no matter how you design it, you come up with some kind of downside,

01:38:28   like what Jon was saying about whether it's lopsided or whatever.

01:38:32   There's always some kind of downside to these things,

01:38:35   but that was one that I thought was a little bit weird with this,

01:38:38   that when you flip it back, you're touching the keys with your hands

01:38:41   when not using it, and that's kind of odd.

01:38:43   But otherwise, I really am curious to spend time with this.

01:38:47   I'm a little curious.

01:38:48   I didn't get an idea about the weight of the keyboard,

01:38:51   and as far as I can find, the site doesn't specify the weight anywhere,

01:38:55   so I would love to know if anybody knows how much these smart keyboards weigh,

01:38:59   because one of the issues with the old one is that when you have the smart keyboard cover

01:39:03   on the old iPad Pro, it does noticeably increase the weight of the iPad.

01:39:08   It's made of tungsten. I'm always amazed by this.

01:39:10   My wife has a smart keyboard, and I pick up her iPad,

01:39:12   which is ostensibly the same iPad as mine,

01:39:14   and it feels like it is just the world's most dense object.

01:39:16   I'm like, holy cow, what is in this?

01:39:19   Do you have fishing weights hiding somewhere?

01:39:21   It's not that much heavier. It feels so heavy, it makes me angry.

01:39:24   So I'm hoping this one is lighter.

01:39:26   I weighed mine earlier.

01:39:28   So the 10.5 inch smart keyboard is just a little over half a pound.

01:39:32   It's 0.54 pounds.

01:39:34   Now, the iPad itself is one pound, so it increases the weight of the iPad by 50%.

01:39:39   So that's a significant increase, and that's why,

01:39:42   whenever I take it off for any reason, which is rare,

01:39:46   I'm always shocked at how light the iPad is by comparison.

01:39:50   But I would love, like, if, I'm a little concerned given how much more material there is,

01:39:56   seemingly, in the new keyboard cover.

01:39:58   I'm a little concerned it might be heavier.

01:40:00   I at least, I hope they're at least not heavier.

01:40:03   I would love if they could find a way to make them lighter without ruining the keyboard,

01:40:06   but I don't know that that's possible.

01:40:08   So I think we should talk about USB-C a little bit.

01:40:10   Yeah.

01:40:11   That rumor was true. There is no lighting port.

01:40:14   There is instead a USB-C port, and I, you know,

01:40:17   watching the presentations, despite all the rumors and everything,

01:40:19   I found myself thinking, especially as they went through this thing, like,

01:40:22   "Well, of course, because laptops have USB-C ports, not lighting ports on them,

01:40:26   and this thing is so much closer in the spectrum between, like, phone and laptop."

01:40:30   Like, it is, you know, it is an amazing laptop that's not a laptop.

01:40:34   There's no reason it should have the same connector as the phone.

01:40:36   I think it should have more USB-C ports. What the hell else is new?

01:40:39   But I am totally on board with USB-C, setting aside all the external, you know,

01:40:46   connectors and connecting up to a camera and a 5K display.

01:40:50   Remember when we were back, like, "Oh, I wonder when the new Mac Pro

01:40:53   will be able to connect to a 5K display." Now the iPad can do it.

01:40:56   It is entirely the right connector. There should be more of them.

01:41:00   Goodbye, Lightning on the iPad. I won't miss you.

01:41:05   And I really hope -- so, you know, the iPad is showing off a brand-new industrial design style.

01:41:11   I hope we get that on the iPhone in the future, and hopefully in the near future.

01:41:15   Maybe next year.

01:41:16   We already did. It was called the iPhone 5. Everyone loved it.

01:41:18   Right, exactly. Like, yeah, like, the new iPads basically look like the iPhone 5,

01:41:22   which is awesome. I love the iPhone 5 and the SE.

01:41:25   Like, that and the 5S, like, they look like the 5S, really,

01:41:28   like with the space gray and the straight edges and everything being just nice in your hand.

01:41:33   So I would love for the iPhones to return to that.

01:41:37   I don't think that's incredibly likely, because the iPhones, I think --

01:41:41   I think the thickness matters a lot more on the phone,

01:41:43   and I can't see them going thicker to add USB-C, which they would have to probably do.

01:41:48   But, boy, I would love that. That would be so cool.

01:41:51   It is a little bit weird now, because now that we have USB-C,

01:41:54   it's a little weird that you -- if you're traveling with an iPhone and an iPad,

01:41:59   you now need two power cables. It is kind of cool --

01:42:03   You just need one. You just need a USB-C or Lightning, and they both charge each other.

01:42:05   That's how it works.

01:42:06   Yeah, right. Yeah, like, that -- it is kind of cool --

01:42:08   Perpetual motion machine.

01:42:09   -- that the iPad can now charge the phone, which is pretty awesome.

01:42:12   Yeah, no, I think that, you know, if you happen to have those cables,

01:42:15   it doesn't come with the phone, but, yeah, I think it makes sense,

01:42:17   although, like, everyone has habits, weird habits.

01:42:21   Like, I have a Lightning cable by my nightstand, but I just have one of them,

01:42:24   because I'm never finding my -- basically, I charge my phone at night

01:42:26   and my iPad during the day, and everything works out.

01:42:28   But now I would need two cables if I got this thing.

01:42:30   I would need one USB-C for the -- or I can have an adapter or something.

01:42:34   But, you know, it's the right connector for this product.

01:42:37   But as many people have been pointing out, oh, now the phone is the odd one out, right?

01:42:41   Now it's -- now it's one of these things that's not like the other.

01:42:44   But Apple sells so many more phones than every other product

01:42:48   that we're talking about combined.

01:42:49   It's not even funny, right?

01:42:50   So I don't think there's any peer pressure from Apple's product line

01:42:54   for the phone to immediately change to USB-C.

01:42:57   And, you know, people tend -- people -- I was going to say people tend to freak out

01:43:03   when you change the connector on the phone, but it's happened so rarely.

01:43:06   The problem is that just so many people have the phone.

01:43:10   So if and when Apple does either change the connector on the phone

01:43:14   or get rid of the connector and go all wireless or inductive or whatever,

01:43:17   a little based on their AirPod success -- their AirPower success,

01:43:20   I don't see that happening anytime soon,

01:43:22   I don't think there's any pressure from the rest of the line.

01:43:26   Because the phone -- the phone is the thing.

01:43:28   The phone is the product everyone cares about.

01:43:30   There are so many of them.

01:43:31   You know, 100 million Macs is there installed.

01:43:33   They sell 100 million iPhones like in a quarter or something.

01:43:35   No, not in a quarter.

01:43:36   I don't know.

01:43:37   But there's a lot of iPhones out there.

01:43:39   So I think iPhones can cruise along with lighting for a while longer.

01:43:44   Certainly it would make some kind of unifying sense for them to be USB-C,

01:43:48   but as we've discussed a lot in the past when we talked about

01:43:51   whether the iPhone X would have USB-C,

01:43:53   I wish I could remember that show number, there are advantages to lightning.

01:43:56   Those advantages continue to exist.

01:43:58   And at this point, there's a lot of lightning stuff out there for phones.

01:44:04   It's not like 30-pin where they're in hotel rooms, at least I haven't seen them.

01:44:08   But it's close.

01:44:10   So I think we've got to ride out this lightning thing on the phone

01:44:14   for at least a few more years.

01:44:15   But iPad, USB-C, or Thunderbolt or anything like that,

01:44:20   basically any connector you can imagine on a laptop,

01:44:23   those connectors are right at home on the iPad Pros

01:44:26   because iPad Pros are basically amazing laptops without keyboards.

01:44:30   I think a good counterargument to the lightning is everywhere thing, though,

01:44:34   is that Android phones use USB-C now.

01:44:36   So anybody who's looking to have a cable at a clock radio at a hotel or something like that,

01:44:41   if you just put USB-C cables there,

01:44:43   you'd be able to cover all phones in this future where iPhones have USB-C.

01:44:47   I feel like they were burned by 30-pin.

01:44:49   Have you seen any USB-C ones?

01:44:51   Have you seen--maybe they decided, you know what,

01:44:53   let's not chase computer connectors with our hotel peripherals because that's going to--

01:44:57   Not only have I not seen any USB-C ones, I still see 30-pin ones sometimes.

01:45:02   And if you think about this, what do you see everywhere in terms of computer connectors?

01:45:07   USB-A. USB-A is on airplanes, USB-A is on every charging station,

01:45:11   USB-A is still everywhere.

01:45:14   And that's the other end of all of our cables, right?

01:45:18   It's USB-A to USB-C, USB-A to lightning.

01:45:21   So if we can dislodge USB-A, that'll be progress.

01:45:25   I can totally see Apple going to USB-C. If the current situation is sustained for a long period of time,

01:45:34   they just probably won't be able to avoid it despite the fact that it's thicker and not proprietary

01:45:37   and all the other things or whatever.

01:45:39   But I don't see a reason for them to rush to it now.

01:45:42   I'm perfectly happy with lightning on my phone and for all subsequent phones,

01:45:45   but on an iPad, love the USB-C.

01:45:47   Let me give you one small counterargument, which is something that we can easily get past,

01:45:52   but is another expenditure.

01:45:54   If I were to have an iPad--

01:45:57   If I take my iPad now, which I don't know where it is, like I said,

01:46:00   but let's just assume I knew where it was and I was using it,

01:46:03   and I'm out and about, I don't know, at an Apple event because we're cool like that.

01:46:07   Well, maybe.

01:46:09   If I was using it and I ran out of juice and I didn't have an outlet nearby,

01:46:15   I would take one of the, say, batteries out of my away suitcase, which is exactly what I did today.

01:46:21   I traveled without a suitcase, but I took the battery out of my away.

01:46:24   They're not a sponsor this week, but they're a past sponsor.

01:46:26   I took the battery pack and I used the USB-A port on that battery pack to charge my phone,

01:46:31   or I could have charged an iPad.

01:46:33   That's not going to be quite so easy, is it, with USB-C?

01:46:36   I know you can go USB-A to USB-C, but is that going to be enough power to actually power one of these iPads?

01:46:42   So are you going to have to get--

01:46:43   Yeah, it is.

01:46:44   It will be okay?

01:46:45   Not at full speed.

01:46:46   There are A to C cables now.

01:46:49   And in fact, the Nintendo Switch charges controllers with those. It comes with them.

01:46:52   But it's limited to a certain wattage.

01:46:55   I think it's going to be about 12 or 15 watts, maybe, something like that.

01:46:59   But it's--so you can do it. It would just maybe be slow.

01:47:03   And also, one new little tidbit, the iPads now come with a new and seemingly unbuyable, separately,

01:47:10   18-watt USB-C power brick.

01:47:13   So that's cool.

01:47:14   I look forward to being able to buy more of those, because it seems like that's everything I've been wanting.

01:47:19   There's also now a few other new USB-C peripherals, so the aforementioned USB-C to headphone adapter dongle, $9.

01:47:26   There's also a USB-C SD card reader now, to work with the new iPads.

01:47:30   There's a new one-meter charge cable that comes with it, because it's--

01:47:34   I think it's the same charge cable as that comes with the new laptops, but those all come with two-meter cables.

01:47:39   This has a one-meter cable, and you can buy those separately.

01:47:41   And also, a fun little tidbit, you can now get an Apple Watch charging cable that has a USB-C end.

01:47:48   Oh, interesting.

01:47:49   And it's only one foot, too.

01:47:50   So it's clearly meant for travel, which is great, because one thing I've been doing,

01:47:54   even though I don't usually travel with the Apple Watch, but one thing I've been doing is

01:47:58   I've been simplifying my travel setup to try to just be all USB-C for everything.

01:48:03   The power bricks, all the cables, the battery, everything.

01:48:07   Everything I travel with is USB-C.

01:48:09   Okay, Gray.

01:48:10   No, there's a reason for that, because carrying two copies of all your cables sucks.

01:48:14   So I've been trying to do this over the last few months.

01:48:17   Any time I can find a way to eliminate a USB-A cable from my travel setup, I do,

01:48:21   because if I can make everything the same, which today that has to mean USB-C,

01:48:25   because otherwise you have dongles on that end, good.

01:48:29   And apparently, in the last week or something, Apple released an Apple Watch charging cable with USB-C on the end,

01:48:36   and that was perfect, because that's the one thing I always felt like if I had to travel with my Apple Watch,

01:48:41   I would have to bring some kind of USB-A power brick to charge just that,

01:48:46   because it had that one cable, and that was your only option, so now you have two options.

01:48:50   That's nice.

01:48:51   But yeah, I'm looking forward to, we are slowly moving to this USB-C world,

01:48:59   where you can actually go all in on it, but we're still not there yet.

01:49:04   There's still huge missing parts, like the hub situation is still terrible,

01:49:08   but we are taking these baby steps, we're slowly working our way towards there.

01:49:14   Hopefully we'll get there before USB-D comes out and we'll have to throw all these cables away.

01:49:19   One thing that I think is a minor regression from going Lightning to USB-C has nothing to do with the port,

01:49:26   and not even that much to do with the connector, but in my experience,

01:49:30   the cables, the cables that are attached to USB-C connectors,

01:49:35   at the length of the stiff part of the connector, the thickness and bendiness of the cable,

01:49:41   even the ones that are just power, like the one that you connect to the one that comes with laptops,

01:49:46   I think that's not a full USB-C data cable, it's mostly just for power.

01:49:50   It's USB 2.0, not 3.0, that's why.

01:49:53   It is thinner than it would be if it had the USB 3.0 speed,

01:49:57   but it is power and USB 2.0 data.

01:50:00   Right, and it's because it's so long that even for a USB 2.0 it has to be a little thicker, right?

01:50:04   But Lightning cables are very thin. The stiff part of the connector is very short.

01:50:09   And it's just generally like, it feels less like there is a stiff twig poking out of the side of your thing,

01:50:19   and then a fairly stubborn garden hose-sized cable coming out.

01:50:23   It feels more like there's a light string with a little stiff nub, right?

01:50:27   And that's going to be a downgrade, because the thicker the cable and the longer the stiff part,

01:50:34   the more unwieldy it is to plug stuff like this in.

01:50:38   And that's just the nature of USB-C, I think.

01:50:40   Even Apple's cables exhibit that pattern.

01:50:44   It's also one of the advantages of Lightning for the phone,

01:50:47   because the phone is a small, dainty device compared to an iPad or a laptop,

01:50:50   and it should have a small, dainty connector with a small, dainty cable.

01:50:53   That's exactly what we have with Lightning, and I enjoy that.

01:50:55   And it will be a slight downgrade to go away from that with the iPad.

01:50:59   But again, I think it's the appropriate connector for this device.

01:51:04   And you know, speaking of this, when the iPad first came out,

01:51:09   especially given Springboard and the lack of major interface changes to support the iPad,

01:51:15   the slam against it, and you know, it was like, "Oh, it's just a big phone."

01:51:19   Despite the fact that this looks like an iPhone 5,

01:51:23   this is the farthest from a big iPhone that the iPad has ever been.

01:51:27   They're huge, they're incredibly powerful, they're massively advertised with a keyboard,

01:51:34   like it's so intrinsically built in, they have the pencil support.

01:51:38   It doesn't feel like the iPad is in the shadow of the iPhone anymore.

01:51:43   Like, they've diverged from each other so significantly,

01:51:46   and the iPad continues to go so far up marketable.

01:51:49   I guess the phone is chasing it, you can get a $1,400 phone too.

01:51:52   But I just feel like there's a much more healthy separation.

01:51:55   That separation will be even healthier if and when iOS 13 comes out with much more iPad-specific features,

01:52:00   but even as things stand now, I think there's a comfortable distance between the two,

01:52:05   and the slam that, "Oh, why would I want an iPad? It's just a big iPhone."

01:52:08   I don't think anyone's saying that anymore when they look at these things.

01:52:11   Try running Photoshop on your phone.

01:52:14   We could probably run it, which is a sad thing, because the freaking CPU is insane.

01:52:18   But not maybe the best screen to do serious Photoshop work.

01:52:22   One interesting thing that I overheard was Marco talking to the developer of the DJ app.

01:52:29   And it was hard for me to hear, because everyone was shouting,

01:52:33   and even three feet from your face, Marco, it was hard to hear what you were saying.

01:52:37   But it sounded like you had asked the developer,

01:52:41   "Hey, can you do kind of whatever you want with the external display, or do you have to..."

01:52:45   Is it something like the Apple Watch, where you can only put certain UI kit elements,

01:52:50   or certain widgets, if you will, in certain places, et cetera,

01:52:53   and jump in whenever you're ready?

01:52:55   But it sounded like he said it's a free-for-all. You can do whatever the hell you want.

01:52:59   Yeah, because I was wondering, one of the little oddities in the presentation

01:53:04   was that the very first thing they showed doing an external monitor, it was letterboxed,

01:53:10   because it was just mirroring the iPad screen,

01:53:13   and the monitor was a different aspect ratio than the iPad.

01:53:16   And I thought that was kind of odd.

01:53:18   And then later on, they showed a different app using an external monitor that it was filled all the way.

01:53:23   And so I was wondering, there has been external monitor support in the iOS SDK for a while now.

01:53:30   But I have never used it for anything, because there aren't a lot of reasons to play podcasts on external monitors.

01:53:37   And so I've never had a reason to use these APIs.

01:53:40   So I was just basically asking them, can you just put whatever you want on that,

01:53:44   or can it only do certain things like mirroring or whatever else?

01:53:47   And yeah, he basically said, I was asking, can you just render to it as any kind of window or surface or whatever?

01:53:55   And he basically said yes, you can just put whatever you want there.

01:53:58   So it is not going to be-- like with Macs and PCs, the OS automatically expands itself

01:54:07   and all applications to be usable in some form on whatever number of monitors you plug into them.

01:54:13   That isn't the case on iOS.

01:54:15   On iOS, each app has to implement its own support for whatever's going on externally.

01:54:20   Or I think you can always just mirror the display, and that will always work.

01:54:23   But that won't fill the screen, and that might have other weird effects,

01:54:26   like not being able to interact with it and everything else.

01:54:28   So it's always going to be a little bit different with iOS in the sense that you need each app

01:54:34   to actually code support for external displays and for that support to actually be for something useful,

01:54:39   for this kind of dream scenario where you're using an external monitor with your iPad.

01:54:43   But at least that's now a little bit easier to do.

01:54:46   It now requires fewer dongles, the thing's more powerful and can drive bigger screens.

01:54:50   So that should probably happen more as the pro software market on the iPad arrives and matures.

01:54:58   They were showing all these scenarios.

01:55:00   I forget if some of them were in videos or some were on Apple sites.

01:55:02   Maybe some of them were from the hands-on area where they'd show someone with an iPad Pro,

01:55:05   and they'd have it hooked up to a camera but also to an external display.

01:55:10   I guess it must have been a photo. You have the person posing.

01:55:13   So OK, first of all, you have it hooked up to both a camera and an external display,

01:55:17   which means there's some kind of dongle happening there.

01:55:19   I don't see it in the picture, but we all know it's there,

01:55:21   because you can't plug both those things into a single port.

01:55:23   You've got to have some kind of adapter or dongle, which is fine.

01:55:26   That's the beauty of the port.

01:55:28   The good thing is that everyone in the Apple community is now very much familiar

01:55:33   with how you multiply one USB-C port into multiple ports.

01:55:37   Yeah, but they didn't show it in the picture.

01:55:40   And then the next thing is, OK, on the big screen was a photo,

01:55:45   and on the small screen was a photo application with a bunch of thumbnails.

01:55:48   So my application decides it's going to use an external display.

01:55:53   You can't touch the external display, as far as I know,

01:55:56   although I think Steve Trout and Smith says basically there is OS support

01:55:59   for external touch screens, just that as far as I know,

01:56:02   that's not a thing that's possible with any current hardware or software.

01:56:05   But in theory, there's nothing preventing it technologically speaking down the road.

01:56:09   But right now, you can't touch it.

01:56:11   There's no cursor, no mouse cursor,

01:56:13   so it's not like you can use an input device, a touch input,

01:56:20   while looking up at the external screen,

01:56:23   because you wouldn't see what the heck you're doing.

01:56:25   You have to look down or across or whatever at the iPad

01:56:29   when you're doing anything interactive,

01:56:31   because all of the interaction is happening on the iPad.

01:56:34   That's where you touch, and you have to look at what you're touching.

01:56:36   So I suppose you could do something on the iPad and then look up to the screen

01:56:41   and then look down at the iPad and then look up at the screen.

01:56:45   It just seemed like an uncomfortable scenario.

01:56:47   I'm sure there's lots of clever uses that people can find for external displays,

01:56:50   but as a general-purpose solution,

01:56:53   as in desktops have general-purpose support for external displays

01:56:56   and everything about their OS and input elements, every lens itself,

01:56:59   saying hook up more displays, we just roll with it.

01:57:01   It's just more of the same stuff.

01:57:03   With iOS, it's like on the iPad, you've got your iPad.

01:57:08   That's where you do your interaction,

01:57:10   and you can hook up an external display, which is basically just like a bucket

01:57:13   to throw pixels that occasionally you might want to look at.

01:57:15   But you can't really be -- I suppose you could use the iPad

01:57:18   as a giant game controller and project the game up onto there,

01:57:21   but even that is a little bit weird.

01:57:22   I don't know.

01:57:23   I'm sure people will come up with clever scenarios,

01:57:25   but it's a slightly uncomfortable hybrid,

01:57:28   even more so than hooking up an external display to a laptop,

01:57:31   because again, if you have an external display hooked to a laptop,

01:57:33   you could be using the trackpad and the laptop

01:57:35   while you stare at the giant 5K display.

01:57:37   It's not ideal.

01:57:38   You'd probably rather have a docking station

01:57:40   and a real keyboard and a mouse, but it's a thing that you could do.

01:57:42   But with the iPad, I don't know.

01:57:45   Maybe Viticci knows how to use an external 5K display on his iPad,

01:57:49   and it will tell us all the amazing productivity

01:57:51   he gets from that arrangement right now.

01:57:53   I'm wondering what the best use of that capability is for iPad power users.

01:57:59   One other thing, keeping -- I mean, this is kind of good.

01:58:03   Not that my kids were going to get new iPad Pros,

01:58:05   but as I think I've mentioned in other podcasts,

01:58:07   my children spend their entire life with an essential life support umbilical cord

01:58:11   snaking from their ears down to an iPad which they carry in one hand,

01:58:14   leaving them only one hand to live the entire rest of their life with.

01:58:17   So they must live their life just with one hand.

01:58:20   If they need to brush their teeth, one hand.

01:58:22   If they need to eat, only one hand is available.

01:58:23   If they need to take out milk and pour it in their cereal,

01:58:26   they can only use one hand, because the other hand has an iPad in it.

01:58:30   And by the way, there's a very precarious cord snaking from their ears to the iPad,

01:58:34   which you can catch on things, so you have to be careful.

01:58:35   So it's a very delicate dance, being my children.

01:58:37   Anyway, these iPads have no headphone port.

01:58:43   So I said, "Well, kids, you may think these new iPads are great,

01:58:46   but if I got them for you, how would you live?

01:58:48   You can't be connected to headphones anymore."

01:58:51   And they said, "Wait, what? There's no headphone port?"

01:58:53   I'm like, "Yes, children."

01:58:55   I won't tell them about the adapter, but Apple has a hilarious picture on their iPad Pro page

01:59:00   that shows -- it says "Accessories, Explore Cases, Headphones, Speakers, and More,"

01:59:04   and it shows a picture of an iPad Pro with two AirPods floating in the air above it.

01:59:08   This is Apple's way of saying, "Guess what? AirPods.

01:59:12   Don't bother with that $9 connector. Buy $160 Bluetooth earbuds."

01:59:17   And my kids, they know about AirPods, because I have them, my wife has them,

01:59:21   but the thought of my children having AirPods, they'd have them for 15 minutes,

01:59:26   and then we would never find them again. So that's not going to happen either.

01:59:29   And honestly, they don't know the beauty of AirPods, so they don't even want them.

01:59:32   They are a little bit frowny-faced about the lack of a headphone port.

01:59:36   Myself, I can't remember the last time I plugged headphones into my iPad,

01:59:40   because I am all in on the AirPod lifestyle, because I'm an adult who can keep track of AirPods.

01:59:44   But kids, I guess they'll just have to stick with the old 10.5.

01:59:48   See, to me, the headphone jack removal is the only real down --

01:59:51   except the cost, as I said earlier -- but the headphone jack removal is like --

01:59:55   I, too, as the adult using the iPad, I, too, have almost never plugged headphones into my iPad

02:00:02   in the last couple of years. But why remove it?

02:00:06   They didn't give a reason -- they didn't even mention it was removed --

02:00:08   but if you think about it, the reasons that apply to the phone, which even they were shaky,

02:00:13   but it's not for thinness, it's not for water resistance, it's not for a lack of internal volume.

02:00:21   If you look at a teardown of a modern iPad, there's tons of empty space in there.

02:00:25   It's not for cost reasons, because there's tons of profit on these.

02:00:29   It's still on every Mac, so they're still important to "computers," and the iPad's a computer, right?

02:00:35   So why was it removed?

02:00:38   It's the one hardware change I would make to this. It's not a big deal, but if I had to say,

02:00:42   "What would you change about this hardware?" "Headphone jack, easy."

02:00:44   Even though I probably wouldn't use it, it just feels like it's another one of those philosophical changes.

02:00:50   "Philosophically, it would be better if it just had one part. Wouldn't that be great?"

02:00:53   "Mm, not really. I mean, throw it in there."

02:00:57   I don't think it's a big deal.

02:00:59   I think that if Apple really wants to show that they're learning, they could potentially bring it back in a future model, but they probably won't.

02:01:05   This is, again, with the iPad being more like a laptop, and laptops, as you know, have a strict philosophical, orthodox adherence

02:01:15   to the idea of reducing the number of holes that are in them, even if it makes them less useful.

02:01:19   Hell, this thing could have an SD card slot.

02:01:22   Once you get into a laptop size and power and price, there's lots of things that I can imagine being on the side of this thing, or even just another USB-C.

02:01:30   But yeah, headphones, it feels like the one slightly punitive change to this.

02:01:36   But as we both noted, it's probably not relevant for people who buy a $1,400 iPad, so I don't think there's going to be that much outcry.

02:01:44   Yeah, but it does, as Jason pointed out, it does reduce the potential usability of this, or it makes it more annoying to use, for a lot of pro things.

02:01:56   A lot of the things they demoed, things like DJs using it, or people doing live audio edits or mixing.

02:02:02   There are things where you really need a wired headphone for avoiding latency at Bluetooth and everything.

02:02:07   And now, you can do that now, but you need a dongle, which means that you can't charge the laptop while you do it.

02:02:13   It's like burning a bigger dongle or a breakout box, and maybe that's what they're envisioning in the pro scenarios.

02:02:18   Right, so you're relying on more and more dongles.

02:02:21   If I'm using an iPad for something audio related, the last thing I want is to run my interface through a dongle.

02:02:29   Because dongles are unreliable, especially if I'm doing some kind of live performance or live need, in which case I probably wouldn't be doing this on an iPad, honestly.

02:02:37   But I would never want to run a critical audio interface to a live performance or live event through a dongle.

02:02:46   That's a terrible idea, because dongles are just too unreliable.

02:02:51   It's hard enough to get USB audio to be reliable in the first place.

02:02:55   To also be running it through a dongle, doing its own USB translation stuff, is just stupid.

02:03:00   And so, by requiring that port to be used for adapters and dongles and everything, and also power now,

02:03:09   it just adds to the complexity and possibly reduces the reliability of using this in certain pro contexts.

02:03:15   And that's kind of annoying when it doesn't seem like there was any obvious good reason to remove the headphone jack.

02:03:20   Yeah, it's just purely philosophical.

02:03:22   And people in the chat room said, "Well, you know, you don't have to buy $160 AirPods, there's tons of cheap Bluetooth headphones."

02:03:28   That's true, but the advantage of cheap wired headphones is that you don't have to charge them, you don't have to worry about it.

02:03:37   You can get them incredibly cheap, you can buy just the cheapest earbuds or whatever, you don't care if they break, you don't care if they bend.

02:03:43   You can charge your iPad at the same time as you're doing that.

02:03:46   There's no latency, they're just cruddy analog things.

02:03:50   It makes it more useful. I can't wait for Apple's whole philosophical bent about holes in the sides of their portable products,

02:03:59   wraps around to the point where they start bragging about and touting the dongles that you no longer need because here's the new hardware item.

02:04:09   Buy the new Apple X and throw away those three adapters.

02:04:14   I mean, it's kind of hard for them to make that full circle, they have to wait for it to become sort of the thing we're used to, for all of us to just accept it.

02:04:19   And then they can say, "Look, if this was the only iPad and they introduced a new one and said, 'Now it has the headphone port, so you don't need to use that dongle to charge and listen to audio at the same time.'"

02:04:28   People would say, "Yeah, that's great." They can come around on this and make it seem like they're solving a problem that they solved and we'll all be grateful for it.

02:04:36   We're rapidly approaching the point where memories are short enough that people won't realize that they're solving a problem that they themselves solved.

02:04:44   Once we all have accepted our residence in dongle town and we've developed our collection of these white, pasty white dongles, we will pay Apple money to make it so we have to carry one fewer dongle.

02:04:56   I have to say that I haven't priced out the iPad that I'm going to try to resist buying, but if you wanted to get a top-of-the-line 12-inch iPad that's $1,900 with cellular is $130, a pencil is—oh, no, I'm sorry, that's $1,900 for the iPad with cellular, $130 for the pencil, $200 for the keyboard, $2,230.

02:05:22   And yet it probably has a faster CPU and potentially a faster integrated GPU, or maybe faster than the discrete GPU, than any $2,000 Apple laptop.

02:05:33   That's why I think the prices aren't that ridiculous anymore with these things, because it is so incredibly powerful. The screen is so good. It has so many things that no Apple laptop has.

02:05:43   How much would you pay for an Apple laptop with Face ID?

02:05:46   A billion dollars.

02:05:48   Well, also, the use of the iPad. It's hard to mention enough how Apple's pricing is just going up and up and up.

02:06:02   Everything Apple has released in the last couple years has been noticeably more expensive than what it replaced.

02:06:08   Apple's pricing is really just tightening those screws, making us pay more and more and more every year for successive products.

02:06:18   There's a new MacBook Air. The old MacBook Air is still for sale at the same price. The new one costs more.

02:06:25   The price is one area where it's hard to feel good as an Apple customer when you price things out now and you see quite how expensive everything has gotten.

02:06:39   Apple stuff was never cheap, but it used to be at least a respectable value for what you were getting.

02:06:46   As the prices keep going up and up and up, that's a much harder rationalization to make.

02:06:52   But at least with the price, you feel that pain only once. When you buy it, you feel that pain.

02:07:00   But then once you have the product, you're able to move past what you paid for it, hopefully.

02:07:07   Until the keyboard dies or whatever, you drop an iPhone device or whatever.

02:07:16   The expense of these items is an upfront pain. The laptops, I feel like, punish you every time you use them.

02:07:25   The laptops are just punitive. They just want you to hate yourself for having bought them.

02:07:31   Whereas the iOS devices, once you get past the cost barrier upfront, they're just pleasure. They're just wonderful.

02:07:38   Both the iPhones and the iPads are just so wonderful. They're so pleasing to use. This is why I wish I was more in the iPad ecosystem.

02:07:47   Because every time I use my laptop, I just hate it more. And every time I use an iPad, I'm like, "Man, I wish I could do more with this thing."

02:07:55   And a lot of that's on me. There is more I could do on it if I would invest the time into learning new tools and everything.

02:08:02   There's also a lot of my work I still couldn't do on it that would bother me. But boy, these iPad Pros look really, really awesome.

02:08:09   I'm much more excited about the prospect of spending $1,400 on an iPad Pro that I will use mostly to play overcast during breakfast than I am about any laptop I've bought from Apple in the last two years.

02:08:26   Alright, thanks to our sponsors this week, Casper, Squarespace, and Eero. And our indirect sponsor, Apple. And we'll see you next week.

02:08:35   Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin. Cause it was accidental. Oh, it was accidental.

02:08:47   John didn't do any research, Margo and Casey wouldn't let him. Cause it was accidental. Oh, it was accidental.

02:08:58   And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM. And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them.

02:09:08   @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S, so that's Casey, Liszt, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M, N-T, Margo, R-M-N, S-I-R-A-C, U-S-A, Syracuse.

02:09:24   It's accidental. They didn't mean to. Accidental. Tech podcast so long.

02:09:37   So I'm curious, Casey, I know my answer to this. Did you run into any Apple executives or other Apple celebrities?

02:09:46   Run into just coincidentally. Well, cause, so at the hands-on area, there's a lot of the prominent people that we know from Apple events and stuff,

02:09:55   and high up executives and stuff, will be walking around. And, you know, they tend to be mobbed with people trying to get selfies, but you can occasionally interact with them.

02:10:03   I'm curious, I had a couple interactions. My first one, while Casey was playing with the iPad that I had just freed up, I noticed that right across the table was Johnny Ive having a big mob of people around him.

02:10:17   I thought, like, you know, first of all, I'm like, you know, what am I going to say to Johnny Ive? Anything I say, I would probably be making an idiot of myself.

02:10:24   And he doesn't know or care who I am. So like, what, what am I going to say? Like, and it was very clear also that Johnny was very uncomfortable in this setting.

02:10:33   Like, it's clear, like there's a reason why he's usually only seen videos and he wasn't this time. Like it was interesting. Like the, the, the role that Johnny would have normally played, which has the voiceover in the video, was Phil Schiller this time.

02:10:46   And for the iPad video. Who did a great job, by the way, I really thought he did a great job. I kind of miss seeing him. Like, cause normally Phil would present new IMAX or iPads or new Max or iPads.

02:10:56   But I kind of miss seeing him on stage, but it was, it was interesting, like hearing, hearing a Phil voiceover in that video. That was pretty cool.

02:11:03   But Johnny was nowhere in the event then, like, you know, he didn't have any voiceovers, but it's very clear, like why he normally does those.

02:11:10   Cause like, you know, we've, we've heard here and there, like he doesn't like being on stage or doing that. And he clearly was not that comfortable in a mob room full of people who are mostly his fans trying to get selfish with him.

02:11:21   Like this was not his scene. So I wasn't going to try to add to his crowd, but a few minutes later as he was leaving, he walked, he was going to walk past where I was standing.

02:11:33   I figure like, I'm not going to like stop him or anything. Cause again, what would I say? But as he was walking by, I did think of something. I thought of one thing. I said, Hey Johnny, I missed you in the videos.

02:11:43   And he was like, Oh, he laughed. He was like, thank you. And his wonderful British way. And I feel very proud of that, that I made Johnny Ive laugh.

02:11:53   And he was clearly, you know, uncomfortable and wanting to get out of there as fast as possible. I didn't stop him or slow him down and I didn't make an ass of myself. So I'm very proud of myself for that. Cause normally in that kind of situation, I would say something really stupid and make a total ass of myself. And I didn't do that.

02:12:09   I would still be thinking that Johnny thinks I'm a jerk for saying that. But anyway, I thought it was weird that he wasn't in the videos because this is an all new iPad design. And the time when you need Johnny to tell you about something is when it's an all new design.

02:12:26   How did they go from the old iPad to the new one? And what is it about this new design that's so great and tell us the philosophy behind it and tell us all that. And he wasn't there to do that. And so, you know, they had that thing, that animation, like the finger running around the outside of the iPad, flattening out, which I thought was cute.

02:12:41   And that video was awesome, by the way. Like the video of the finger editing the old iPad to become the new one. That was really cute.

02:12:57   So I actually did miss him. You're right. Phil did a great job. But his voice and what he normally says in his scripts or whatever was slightly missing from explaining the thinking behind an all new design for a prominent Apple product. He doesn't need to explain me on Actbook Air or whatever, but I feel like the iPads he could have explained.

02:13:18   Around the time that this, I guess it was right before this was happening. So Marco was using an iPad and I saw Johnny across from him. And I snapped a few pictures and you can see one of them in my Instagram. I'll put a link in the show notes. Then I started using that same iPad. And for a while there, nobody really noticed that he was there, I think.

02:13:35   And then all of a sudden I noticed that people are shoving my back more and more aggressively. And then cameras are getting closer and closer to my ears to the point that there was a camera within like a half inch of each of my ears going click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, because everyone is like leaning in and basically pushing me out of the way to take a picture of Johnny's across the table.

02:13:55   At some point I thought that Marco had left and I thought that Federico was either leaving or had left. And I didn't know what to do with myself because I wanted to stick around the two of them. But then I went outside and couldn't find them. And I thought, well, I'll go to that fancy new Apple store across the street.

02:14:12   And I walk in there and I happen to meet a couple of listeners, which was lovely, and I'm talking to them. And then all of a sudden, guess who comes walking in? But Tim. Of course he gets mobbed immediately. And one of the listeners I was speaking with, Parker, had no shame in running directly to Tim and getting a selfie within like 30 seconds. I was deeply impressed.

02:14:36   He said, Tim is trying to make his way to the back of the room and is being extremely gracious about it. And the Apple employees are pooping their pants because they want to get a picture with Tim more than anything. I'm pooping my pants but attempting to keep it under control because I would like to get a picture with Tim.

02:14:49   And you only brought one pair of pants.

02:14:51   Yeah, I only had the pants I was wearing. I didn't bring a change of clothes because it was a day trip. I am not the kind of person who would do that sort of thing, generally speaking. When Marco and I got a picture with Federici several years ago, it was basically because Marco said, "Oh my God, there's Craig!" and then disappeared, like, you know, with the outline of Marco in dust, like Looney Tunes style. And then next thing I knew, he was taking a picture with Craig and I got a picture with Craig as well.

02:15:15   In this case, I required some amount of assertiveness on my part, which is not my strong suit. But sure enough, as he was walking by, I said, "Oh, you know, can I get a picture?" "Thank you." And I said, "You did a really good job today, you know. Thanks."

02:15:30   And, you know, for someone who has fallen out of love with the iPad, I really, really want one. It looks really good. And at this point, my body language and I'm trying to indicate to him, like, "You can ditch me, dude. I understand that you need to keep moving to the back of the store.

02:15:44   Just, you can walk away. I'm not gonna be offended." But when I said, you know, "The new iPad's really great, or look really great," you know, he fed me what was clearly, like, his standard canned answer of, "Oh yeah, you're really gonna love them. They're really beautiful."

02:15:56   But he did it in such a way that made me feel like he was at least slightly paying attention to what I was saying, you know, more than I think he was obligated to have done.

02:16:05   And the entire conversation between he and me probably lasted between 10 and 15 seconds, but it seemed like for those 10 or 15 seconds, he actually was trying to engage, which was very, very flattering and very cool.

02:16:18   I did introduce myself by name. I did not see even a glimmer of recognition in him, which is exactly what I expected. But if he had, like, had his eye, like, flutter the littlest bit or something as though he had recognized me, I probably would have keeled over dead right there.

02:16:33   But no, no such, no such a lock. But he was extremely nice, extremely gracious, and I got a picture, which is in that Instagram post I have in the show notes. It's, I think, the last picture because I did it chronologically, and then Mike justifiably yelled at me for not putting that first, but, you know, c'est la vie.

02:16:49   Yeah, I was gonna say the same thing when I was paged at three in a picture. I was like, "You didn't really bury the lead on this one."

02:16:53   Yeah, my bad. But, yeah, I wanted to do it chronologically. I wasn't thinking about it in terms of growth packing.

02:17:00   Yeah, but the cover photo for this album should be you and Tim, obviously.

02:17:03   Yeah, exactly. Yeah, in retrospect, that's what it should be.

02:17:05   This is my buddy Tim. We hang out all the time, you know.

02:17:07   Yeah, totally. But no, that was very cool. It was funny, though, as I was going through my pictures that I took of the day, because I did take my big camera and use it on and off.

02:17:16   At one point, well, somebody actually on Twitter pointed out to me that behind Johnny, when he was talking to some woman who had sunglasses on and had the air of someone who thought that they were important, I don't know if she was important, but, you know...

02:17:29   Probably a world famous celebrity who we all don't know.

02:17:31   Oh, I'm sure. I have no idea who she was, though.

02:17:34   Exactly, yeah. This is the kind of thing, like, I just assume that anybody in there who has even, like, two people trying to talk to them is probably somebody really important.

02:17:42   Yeah. Well, you say all that, and I agree, but just behind Johnny, I'm almost sure was David Blaine. I had no idea until somebody pointed it out on Twitter. He's a magician, a relatively famous magician.

02:17:53   Check inside your shoe, Casey.

02:17:54   Yeah, exactly.

02:17:55   Was that your card?

02:17:57   Even worse, was that my card? Was it the six of diamonds? Even worse, as I'm going through my pictures later, when Federico and I had lunch, I realized I took, like, three pictures of Phil, had no idea he was standing there. None.

02:18:08   Yeah, I didn't see Phil at all. Like, I was looking for him. I would have loved to say hi to Phil. I didn't see him at all.

02:18:14   Yeah, I had no idea.

02:18:15   That is not David Blaine behind Johnny live.

02:18:17   You don't think so?

02:18:18   It's just another man who hasn't shaved recently.

02:18:20   I don't know. Maybe you're right. I believed it when somebody on Twitter said it was David Blaine, but maybe you're right.

02:18:26   Maybe David Blaine has gotten older and puffier, and I don't know.

02:18:31   Could be. Who knows? But one way or another, I did not post the picture of Phil, but I'm almost sure.

02:18:39   Lana Del Rey was in the hands-on area, too. I saw a picture that she posted from there. Some Apple person.

02:18:44   Oh, I did not see that.

02:18:45   I like her music. I actually listened to her performance at the end of the video.

02:18:49   Yeah, and you know, I gotta say, like, not only was that... First of all, not only was it really cool to see, like, you have this empty stage.

02:18:56   Like, you... 'cause Apple events have an empty stage with an empty table for an arrow demo, of course, but otherwise an empty stage.

02:19:02   And it's funny to see, like, right as Tim's introducing the musical guest, this team of stagehands in black shirts comes out and brings out, like, four stage monitor speakers,

02:19:14   two microphone stands, and a piano, and rolls them all out, like, in, like, no time. And all of a sudden, this empty stage becomes a musical performance stage.

02:19:22   And it was a really good performance, and I gotta say, Tim was not awkward with the celebrity.

02:19:28   Good point.

02:19:29   I think this is a first.

02:19:30   Well, they did have the awkward live mic moments. Like, they still... This is one criticism for Apple's incredible crack AV crew is when someone is leaving stage and someone is coming on stage and they meet each other,

02:19:43   I think both of them don't expect their mics still to be live. But very often, they are. Because we get to hear them speak to each other sort of in a non-stage voice.

02:19:52   I think what Lana Del Rey said was, like, "Oh, when I do these things, I'm always so nervous." And Tim was like, "No, you did fine. I'm the one who's nervous." Like, they were conversing with each other in a way...

02:20:00   Have you heard that? We couldn't hear that in the room. Yeah, we couldn't hear that at all.

02:20:03   Right. But go watch the video, you can hear it. And I think, basically, they're not expecting their mics still to be live.

02:20:08   So I feel like the AV crew needs to turn off their mics as soon as they start that transitional phase and only turn them back on once they're separate from each other.

02:20:15   Although it's cute to hear that interaction. I thought it was very honest and real moment that briefly snuck through a very prepared presentation.

02:20:23   Yeah, I gotta say, it was one of the better musical guests in a long time. And the way it was integrated in was pretty nice and it wasn't awkward or anything. It was just good.

02:20:32   Yeah, Tim was... If you're watching the video, I'm sure it was obvious when you were there too, but the volume was fine in the video because obviously they're mixing that audio differently than it sounds in the room.

02:20:42   But Tim was all full of beans, as they would say. Like, he was very enthusiastic, very expressive about everything.

02:20:48   I don't know if he's gotten notes on his past performances that he seemed like he was a little bit sleepy, but he was not sleepy.

02:20:53   He was very expressive about everything and seemed genuinely excited about it and was just really pumped about the stuff they had and introduced everything with enthusiasm.

02:21:04   He didn't have his thoughtful Tim Cook moment, you know, the thoughtful moment that he has, making notes where he retails about only Apple or can do this.

02:21:13   Let me give you a summary of why we're so awesome.

02:21:15   Or just, you know, about why they care about the environment or helping people or it's all about the creativity. This was all just like rah rah, go-go type of stuff.

02:21:23   And by the way, lots of new presenters. So they had Turnus. What's his name?

02:21:28   Yeah, John Turnus, I think.

02:21:29   Yeah, he was at the MacPro event back in 2014, right? So that was like his public introduction in one of these events and now he's on stage.

02:21:37   He was pretty good. The marketing guy they had felt a little marketing-y, but it's the first time I've seen him on stage, so you got to kind of a break. It takes a little while to get the stuff all together.

02:21:48   I thought all the presenters were pretty good and it was a lot of new faces. It was like a quarter women or something. It was better than just having one woman.

02:21:59   But, you know, I did notice that it wasn't just a bunch of dudes the entire time, which was nice.

02:22:06   I would say also it was fairly well-paced and it didn't, at no point, felt like it was dragging. Like they didn't get too down in the weeds at the demos or anything.

02:22:15   It was short. It didn't even go two hours.

02:22:17   Yeah, and it was a very dense hour and a half, whatever it was. The excitement levels were maintained for most of it. It only did it a little bit during the demos, but it was overall pretty cool.

02:22:30   Even the demo people were excited. The person who was demoing Photoshop was excited about the fact that she was using Photoshop on an iPad.

02:22:36   I think the only time it really got creepy was when they took that very long shot of the very detailed basketball player model.

02:22:42   Yeah, because he wasn't blinking. "Guys, you can't do this. Uncanny Valley."

02:22:46   Yeah, that was real creepy.

02:22:47   The sweat beads.

02:22:48   It felt kind of like, I really don't like wax museums because the people in wax museums, they just look a little bit too lifelike but still really creepy and fake and weird. Like, you know, Uncanny Valley kind of situation.

02:23:00   And man, those basketball players in that game, those just freaked me out.

02:23:06   And then to have that one long zoom in on every detail of this guy's sweat beads, and I'm like, "Okay, this should have ended like 20 seconds ago."

02:23:15   Like this, oh my god.

02:23:16   He should have had an idle animation. You know, when characters in games have idle animations, which they're like bouncing up and down or breathing or blinking or just doing something that shows that they're not a wax mannequin but are in fact a living thing.

02:23:27   But anyway, the focus on gaming was interesting, especially when they compared the GPU power to the Xbox One.

02:23:34   That's all well and good, Apple, but you're not convincing me. Like, oh Apple, you've got all the GPU power in the world, you are like 100 times more powerful than the Switch, but you do not have Breath of the Wild.

02:23:51   Do you see the difference? Do you see the difference here, Apple? What's different?

02:23:55   How is Nintendo able to make these amazing games with so much less power? And by the way, that thing costs so much less money. Maybe that's part of it too, but either way, like, yeah.

02:24:07   I love the GPU, I love the fact they have gaming demos. Oh, look at this, it's in retina resolution. This game, you know, no console can do 120 frames per second, which is true, but PCs can.

02:24:16   But anyway, that's not the problem. They're filling the wrong gap. People aren't saying, "I would love to use the iPad as my primary gaming system if only it did 120 frames per second."

02:24:29   That's not what people are saying. People are saying, "I would love to use the iPad as my gaming system if only it had the games I want to play."

02:24:37   That doesn't. Red Dead Redemption 2 did not come out on the iPad. The Last of Us 2 is not coming out on the iPad. Zelda didn't come out on the iPad. All these games, they're not coming out on the iPad.

02:24:48   And it's not because the iPad isn't powerful enough. It's plenty powerful. Anyway, I don't want to go off on Apple gaming stuff, but they insist on bringing up gaming. They insist on comparing themselves to gaming consoles, and it's like, you don't see the differences that people care about. It's not the differences you think they are.

02:25:04   One very small tidbit that I noticed that I might be the only person that finds interesting is that when the Adobe people were on stage, Chantal, I think, was the woman who demonstrated the AR app by actually using the iPad.

02:25:27   When she came on stage, I believe she brought the iPad with her, it looked like, if memory serves. But when she exited the stage, she put the iPad in that cube that was on stage and walked off stage empty handed.

02:25:41   There were three spare iPads. If you look at the shot of when she does the AR thing, you get the reverse angle, there were a bunch of spares there.

02:25:47   That's not surprising. We couldn't see that from our seats, but it just struck me as weird that she would have brought it on stage. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but I could have sworn she brought it on stage. But then deliberately, it looked like she pulled open a drawer and ditched it in the drawer before she walked off stage.

02:26:01   I always get kind of, when I see someone come up for a demo and I realize they're standing in front of what we've come to know as an AR table. Why is there a giant AR table? So you know there's going to be an AR demo. When she was demoing, I was like, "She's demoing Photoshop." That's not going to be an AR demo, but sure enough, it's an AR demo.

02:26:23   Of course it is. All of us have AR demo tables in our house, right? It's just a big, giant, flat, empty table that we use for AR demos to make sure there's a service that it can track well?

02:26:31   Yeah, because obviously, no table in our house would just fill with crap and never be empty ever again.

02:26:37   I think the crap doesn't actually interfere with it too much, but you do need a big table upon which to display things.

02:26:41   Thanks.

02:26:41   (beeping)