271: Voting With Your Virtual Feet


00:00:00   - We can't start for eight more minutes.

00:00:03   - Why, is there some kind of sporting game on?

00:00:06   - No, I don't know if you can hear this, hold on.

00:00:09   - The rain, or the wind?

00:00:10   - No, that's my iMac screaming.

00:00:12   - No, it was raining here, and I was wondering

00:00:14   if it was gonna keep up.

00:00:15   - It was raining earlier.

00:00:16   It's actually gorgeous now, but it was raining earlier.

00:00:18   - Actually, all this time, Casey's iMac

00:00:20   just doesn't work in the rain,

00:00:21   and he just never thought to mention it.

00:00:23   - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:00:24   (laughing)

00:00:25   (electronic beeping)

00:00:27   This here, this is the little plastic sheathing,

00:00:32   if you will, for an ATP pin.

00:00:34   I have to say, it looks magnificent.

00:00:38   I am quite excited about these pins.

00:00:40   Actually, I have not yet opened one.

00:00:42   - Oh, you should open it.

00:00:43   Mine arrived today and I opened one,

00:00:44   and they are really nice.

00:00:47   - This is excellent work.

00:00:49   It has a nice, soft, little stabby thing cap.

00:00:54   - Stabby thing, is that a technical term for what it's on?

00:00:56   - Huh?

00:00:57   - That is exactly-- - Is there another word

00:00:58   for the thing that's on the back of what are they called

00:01:00   again? - Probably a post,

00:01:02   would be a guess. - A backing?

00:01:04   - Yeah, but anyway, so the little thing that protects

00:01:07   the post is very nice, very soft, it is quite nice,

00:01:10   this pin, and I highly suggest, listeners,

00:01:13   if you'd like to throw a few bucks our way,

00:01:15   you should pick one up.

00:01:17   And Marco, why don't you tell us about where you can get

00:01:18   these pins, among many other things

00:01:20   which I will also talk about.

00:01:22   - So you can go to ATP.fm/shirt for our usual URL,

00:01:26   Or you can go to our new URL, ATP.FM/store.

00:01:31   And the reason why it's store is that this year

00:01:35   we have zero new designs, but like five new products.

00:01:39   (laughing)

00:01:40   - So with that in mind, I now have,

00:01:44   that's me hitting the brim of my baseball cap

00:01:46   onto the microphone.

00:01:47   This is an embroidered ATP,

00:01:50   what is the official name for the grayish color?

00:01:53   It's like charcoal coal something?

00:01:55   Space Gray.

00:01:56   There you go.

00:01:57   Space Gray, yeah.

00:01:58   It's definitely Space Gray.

00:01:59   How could I be so wrong?

00:02:00   It is a Space Gray embroidered ATP hat.

00:02:03   I am quite into it.

00:02:04   It looks quite good.

00:02:05   I also have with me, and I am playing with it now, but it's not making very much noise,

00:02:10   an ATP embroidered zipped hoodie.

00:02:14   Now, I am quite excited about this.

00:02:16   I don't really wear hoodies.

00:02:19   The hood to me is kind of redundant, but I know a lot of people are useless, maybe.

00:02:22   I know a lot of people that love the hood part of the hoodie.

00:02:24   My word, the inside of this thing is made of magic.

00:02:28   It is extremely soft, it is thin, but thick enough that it will provide warmth.

00:02:34   You know, it's not one of those scenarios where it's like a piece of, like, you know, tissue paper that you're wrapping yourself with.

00:02:40   It's thick enough that it's got some heft to it, but it's still very light and casual.

00:02:45   And I have to say this thing is quite nice, but perhaps more importantly than anything else, I have...

00:02:52   You can't hear this either. I have an ATP embroidered polo

00:02:56   Finally it is it is a real thing. I had gotten a pre-release version of this like a year ago

00:03:01   I might have accidentally lost it like a week ago. I really honestly don't know where it is somewhere in the house

00:03:06   I can't find it. But anyway, I

00:03:08   Have a brand new ATP polo and it's made out of what is this like Nike dry fit or something like that?

00:03:14   It's it's yeah Nike dry fit

00:03:16   It reminds me a little bit of Under Armour which sounds like a bad thing because Under Armour's marketing is like really bro-ey

00:03:22   But it's actually quite nice, and I am very excited because I still, at this moment anyway,

00:03:28   have a jobby job, and I wear collared shirts to my jobby job, and I am excited to have

00:03:32   a polo.

00:03:33   So, listeners, if you have a jobby job where you can wear a polo, if you just like collars,

00:03:38   if you want to pop a collar, then please don't.

00:03:40   But if you have to, if you're going to pop a collar at all, at least do it in an ATP

00:03:43   shirt.

00:03:44   You should buy two of these shirts so you can have two collars inside the shirt.

00:03:46   You know what, Jon?

00:03:47   I like where your head's at.

00:03:48   That is a great idea.

00:03:49   You can appear in a WWDC keynote.

00:03:51   That is a fantastic idea.

00:03:53   And if no other reason, you should buy this polo shirt because I fought tooth and nail

00:03:58   with Marco particularly to get the polos offered.

00:04:02   And I need some amount of vindication on this issue.

00:04:06   So please buy a polo if you don't mind.

00:04:08   Or buy anything really.

00:04:09   The pins, buy all the things really is what we're trying to say.

00:04:13   Buy all the things because it'd be great.

00:04:15   And they're all really great and really high quality.

00:04:17   Go to ATP.fm/store and buy some stuff.

00:04:20   - Yeah, and you have to do it soon if you want it.

00:04:24   Everything except the pin, all the clothing items,

00:04:27   are all being pre-sold and then at the end,

00:04:29   they print it and ship it,

00:04:30   just like a lot of these t-shirt campaigns

00:04:31   that people like us do.

00:04:33   The date that you have to order by

00:04:35   for all the clothing items is May 7th at 8 p.m. Eastern.

00:04:39   Hurry up, that's coming up fast.

00:04:41   If you want the clothing items, hurry up.

00:04:43   If you want the pins, they don't work that way.

00:04:45   The pins ship pretty much immediately,

00:04:47   but there's a fixed number of them that exist

00:04:50   And I will tell you that this is the first time

00:04:52   we're promoting on the show.

00:04:53   We only announced it on Twitter a few days ago.

00:04:55   We've already sold about a third of the pins.

00:04:57   So if you want pins, really hurry up.

00:05:00   'Cause I have a feeling they're gonna sell out

00:05:01   within not that much time after this episode airs.

00:05:04   Maybe by next week, but you know,

00:05:06   it's not gonna be,

00:05:07   you're not gonna have a lot of time on the pins.

00:05:09   And again, if you want those clothing items,

00:05:10   order those by May 7th.

00:05:12   So otherwise, you know, we are really excited about this.

00:05:15   I was very disappointed, honestly, last year

00:05:18   in the quality of products that we got out of Teespring.

00:05:22   And because of that, we agreed not to use Teespring anymore.

00:05:27   And we were gonna go back to Cotton Bureau anyway,

00:05:29   but then they approached us with this amazing proposal

00:05:32   for making the whole storefront with multiple items,

00:05:35   many of which are things that they don't,

00:05:37   that not just anybody can go to them and print things

00:05:39   like pins and embroidered items and stuff like that.

00:05:42   And they are so good, they're so nice,

00:05:45   that we're just really happy working with them again

00:05:47   and their stuff is top-notch quality

00:05:50   and we're very happy that they now have

00:05:53   much more affordable shipping outside of the US.

00:05:56   We should also clarify that the designs of all of this

00:06:01   are based on the rainbow ATP logo from two years ago.

00:06:06   We tried some new designs for this year.

00:06:09   We couldn't come up with anything

00:06:10   that was that very good in time

00:06:12   and everybody has been begging us.

00:06:14   Since this campaign ended in mid-2016,

00:06:18   everyone loved the design, everybody wanted more.

00:06:21   And last year we had a great design too,

00:06:23   but I think I have no regrets going back

00:06:26   to this design for this year.

00:06:28   And the storefront is actually going

00:06:30   to remain open indefinitely.

00:06:33   We might add more stuff over time,

00:06:36   maybe not waiting until WVDC next year,

00:06:38   maybe we'll do it a little bit more ahead of time,

00:06:41   or maybe we'll do something in the fall, who knows.

00:06:42   but the storefront will kind of be an indefinite thing

00:06:47   with products coming in and out at different times.

00:06:48   But right now, if you want the rainbow logo,

00:06:51   clothing items, or pins, go now

00:06:54   because your time is limited on those.

00:06:57   And yeah, we'll see what happens.

00:06:59   - And as a final addendum, I cannot tell you

00:07:02   the amount of times I've heard somebody say to me

00:07:05   via Twitter or whatever, "Oh, I just missed it.

00:07:08   "I kept meaning to do it and I never did it

00:07:11   and now I can't have that anymore.

00:07:13   Don't wait, don't wait.

00:07:14   Just give us your friggin' money.

00:07:17   I mean, buy yourself a beautiful piece of ATP artwork

00:07:19   and a shirt, do what you can right now before you forget,

00:07:24   because you will be kicking yourself if you forget,

00:07:26   and especially if you're interested in the pins.

00:07:29   We will probably eventually one day

00:07:31   do another run of these pins, eventually.

00:07:33   - Oh, we're definitely gonna do more pins.

00:07:35   The only question is when and which ones.

00:07:37   - Yeah, we're not sure when.

00:07:38   And just like Marco said, we'll call attention to it.

00:07:41   probably when other things appear in the store, but hey, maybe set a, you know, every couple

00:07:46   of months reminder in DUE to check out ATP.fm/store because we might put something else up. In

00:07:52   fact, we've already got a couple of other things in the works as we speak that we will

00:07:56   probably be doing later in the year.

00:07:58   Just Osborne to all our merch. Stop. Cut that out.

00:08:00   What do you mean Osborne? What the hell does that even mean?

00:08:04   You don't—oh, come on.

00:08:05   You'll look it up on Wikipedia later.

00:08:06   In case you didn't see that movie.

00:08:07   Even Marco's seeing that one.

00:08:10   One final, final bit, the Rainbow ATP logo merch is very popular.

00:08:15   When we offered it in 2016, people kept asking us to bring it out.

00:08:18   But I believe that we actually sold more of my t-shirt design last year.

00:08:23   Just saying.

00:08:24   Mm-hmm.

00:08:25   I got two more quick angles on merchandise.

00:08:29   One, when I was browsing the Cotton Bureau site, they saw a whole bunch of stuff.

00:08:33   And at the bottom, they show the popular items, and our stuff was down there.

00:08:35   But also MKBHD's shirt was down there.

00:08:38   And I'm like, "Huh, he's got one day left on his campaign.

00:08:41   He's only sold like 500 shirts.

00:08:43   We can beat that."

00:08:44   So I really want to sell more shirts than his bazillion subscriber YouTube channel.

00:08:49   So let's all go do that and win one for podcasting.

00:08:51   And the second thing is people have also been asking about stickers.

00:08:55   We do not have stickers for sale.

00:08:58   But if you are at WWDC and you find one of us, chances are good that if you want a sticker,

00:09:03   we will give you one for free.

00:09:04   That is accurate.

00:09:05   - I know it's bad if you're not at WWDC,

00:09:07   and we may look into selling stickers someday,

00:09:09   somehow, someway, they're not available now,

00:09:11   but if you are lucky enough to be in San Jose with us,

00:09:14   not even at WWDC, but in San Jose,

00:09:17   and you find one of us, and you want one of the stickers

00:09:19   that we might have, we will just give you one.

00:09:21   (upbeat music)

00:09:22   - We are sponsored this week by Linode.

00:09:24   Go to linode.com/atp to learn more.

00:09:27   Linode is my favorite web host.

00:09:30   I have been there I think about eight years now.

00:09:33   I have all of my stuff hosted there,

00:09:35   And the reason why is that it's just better

00:09:37   than everything else I've tried.

00:09:38   Not only is it a better value,

00:09:40   their plans start at just one gig of RAM

00:09:42   for just $5 a month, that's a really good price.

00:09:46   And if you look at their pricing for all their plans,

00:09:48   and they have high memory plans,

00:09:49   every time I've checked,

00:09:50   they are either the best game in town,

00:09:51   or they're tied with the best game in town.

00:09:53   They're an incredible value for what you get.

00:09:55   All of this is running on enterprise-grade SSDs,

00:09:58   Xeon E5 CPUs, 40-gigabit network backing it.

00:10:02   They have all sorts of great features like load balancing.

00:10:05   They have an API to automate the creation

00:10:08   and resizing and things like that of new instances.

00:10:11   It's incredibly nice to be a Linode customer

00:10:13   because you just have so much available to you

00:10:17   at such good pricing.

00:10:18   You can even try stuff out with hourly billing.

00:10:20   They have 24/7 friendly support if you ever need it.

00:10:23   Phone support is also available.

00:10:25   You can run Docker containers, you can run encrypted disks,

00:10:27   you can run VPNs, or you can be boring

00:10:29   and just run PHP, MySQL web app

00:10:32   like I do. Check out Linode today and if you go to Linode.com/ATP or if you use promo code

00:10:39   ATP2018, you will get a $20 credit. If you choose the base plan, the one gig plan, that's

00:10:45   four months, that's five bucks a month. So it's great. Check it out today, Linode.com/ATP.

00:10:52   And if they're actually hiring, if you're looking for a job, Linode.com/careers. Thank

00:10:57   you so much to Linode for sponsoring our show.

00:11:00   [Music]

00:11:03   Listener Casey asks, who definitely, definitely, definitely is not me, definitely not me, "Hey,

00:11:09   would Bitcode make an Intel-to-ARM transition easier?"

00:11:13   The reason I ask is, I mean, the reason that other Casey asks is, his or my or somebody's

00:11:19   understanding of Bitcode is that basically what Apple eventually gets in the iTunes store

00:11:26   or Mac App Store is kind of like an intermediate language, kind of an IL version of your code.

00:11:33   So it's been quasi-compiled, but it's recompilable—that's probably not a word, but you get what I'm

00:11:39   trying to say—Apple can recompile it to take advantage of new instructions on processors

00:11:46   and things of that nature.

00:11:47   So would that be enough to make an Intel-to-ARM transition easier?

00:11:51   So I'm like, "Didn't we already talk about this in ATB?"

00:11:54   And then I remembered we talked about it with Chris Latner, the creator of LLVM and someone

00:11:59   who knows a little something about bitcode and bytecode.

00:12:01   And also, luckily, this is one of the rare, the only episode, I think, that we actually

00:12:06   transcribed.

00:12:08   So we'll put a link in the show notes to the section of our interview with Chris Latner

00:12:12   where we talk about bitcode.

00:12:14   And we talk about some of these same issues like what is bitcode for, how is it different

00:12:18   than bytecode, does it help with portability.

00:12:21   So I would encourage everyone to review that because we don't want to rehash it all here.

00:12:23   But my short answer is that it doesn't help as much as you might think because bitcode

00:12:28   is not a completely architecture agnostic representation.

00:12:34   It is not the same as machine code.

00:12:36   It is more independent than that.

00:12:37   That's the whole point of it to be able to—I think Chris gives an example about if you're

00:12:42   running bitcode and compiling it down to machine code for a processor that doesn't have a

00:12:46   particular kind of divide instruction, but then later you get a new processor and a new

00:12:49   new iPhone that has that divide instruction, they can then convert the bitcode to different

00:12:54   machine code.

00:12:55   So there is some portability there, but in terms of, "Oh, bitcode is completely architecture

00:12:59   agnostic and you can compile it down to anything," it's not like, you know, there's no virtual

00:13:04   machine specification like there is with the JVM and Java bytecode and stuff like that.

00:13:09   It's more independent than hardware, but not as independent as we've defined a virtual

00:13:13   machine like the JVM, and this is the bytecode for the virtual machine.

00:13:18   then that's the model that you program against and then a virtual machine runs on actual

00:13:23   hardware.

00:13:24   That's not the way bitcode works.

00:13:25   So I mean, is it a factor?

00:13:27   You know, bitcode isn't set in stone, just like the thing that preceded the bytecode

00:13:31   wasn't set in stone.

00:13:33   So there could be a successor to bitcode that really does help a lot with some kind of transition,

00:13:37   especially if there's some kind of translation layer, if they change architectures.

00:13:41   But bitcode as it exists now, I don't think is enough help that it would make a significant

00:13:48   and it's only perhaps that it gives Apple a leg up on,

00:13:50   oh, we really do wanna make a translation layer,

00:13:52   so we'll make the successor to Bitcode,

00:13:54   and since we have that experience with both bytecode

00:13:56   and Bitcode for LLVM, we'll make, I don't know,

00:13:58   Bitcode 2 or something, and that would help.

00:14:01   - I have some follow-up about backpacks.

00:14:03   Much to, I hate to announce this, I'm really sorry, Casey.

00:14:09   I had to return the TomBin.

00:14:11   - Well, that's why.

00:14:12   - As we discussed last week, I got the TomBin Synapse 25,

00:14:16   and going against my Peak Design Everyday 20 liter backpack,

00:14:21   I was hoping that the Tom Bihn would store more stuff

00:14:25   and have things more externally accessible

00:14:27   than the Peak Design.

00:14:29   My main problems with the Peak are that it didn't hold enough

00:14:33   and that I didn't like the design of the side pockets

00:14:36   making everything a little hard to get to

00:14:37   and the laptop compartment was a little bit tight

00:14:39   and all the organization was kind of internal to the bag

00:14:42   instead of external.

00:14:44   So I got the Tom Bihn 25 and last week I raved

00:14:46   how awesome it seemed, but I hadn't actually traveled

00:14:49   with it yet or really used it outside of the house even.

00:14:51   I had just played with it in my office for a couple hours.

00:14:55   And one thing I didn't do at the time

00:14:58   of last week's recording was load it up

00:15:02   with a lot of stuff and put it on.

00:15:04   And when I tried that, I could not make it comfortable.

00:15:09   It just felt really wrong on me.

00:15:12   And so I'm guessing the Synapse 25 is just not a good fit

00:15:16   for my particular, I don't know, size and shape,

00:15:20   my back, whatever else.

00:15:21   The curvature of it in the lumbar area of your back

00:15:25   just didn't, I couldn't find a way to make that sit

00:15:27   no matter how I packed it.

00:15:28   And I know people are probably gonna write it

00:15:30   and say, oh, I packed it wrong,

00:15:31   or I should try this or that.

00:15:33   And I tried a lot of different ways of packing it

00:15:35   and different things in the back

00:15:36   and different weight distributions and everything.

00:15:39   And I just could not find anything

00:15:41   that made it feel right and feel comfortable on me.

00:15:45   And then I took the exact same test load of stuff

00:15:48   that I was packing it with and put it in the peak.

00:15:51   And the very first try, it felt perfect.

00:15:54   So unfortunately, it just doesn't fit me.

00:15:57   Like, you know, in its physical design,

00:15:59   like I had problems with the feel of the lumbar area

00:16:02   as well as just the way the straps

00:16:05   distributed the weight on my shoulders.

00:16:07   I felt like the weight was too high

00:16:09   and kind of just, and it didn't feel right.

00:16:12   and I tried as many adjustments and rearrangements as I could,

00:16:15   and I just couldn't get it to work for me. So I sent that back.

00:16:19   Unfortunately, they do have a very generous return policy that, you know,

00:16:22   some doesn't work out. You can send it back if as long as you haven't like,

00:16:24   you know, taking it on a hike and worn it outside and stuff like that. So I

00:16:27   appreciate that, and I hope to check them out again in the future, but it just

00:16:34   didn't fit me like physically and and meanwhile the peak like I didn't have

00:16:37   to jump through any hoops. I just put it on and it fit perfectly. So my my my

00:16:41   My current backpack plan, you know, backpacks to me

00:16:45   are like to-do apps and email apps for Mike.

00:16:48   Like, I'm always like, at most,

00:16:51   like 60 or 70% satisfied with one

00:16:53   and always kind of keeping an eye out for others.

00:16:56   But I don't buy them very often because it's just,

00:16:58   you know, they're expensive and it's kind of a pain.

00:17:02   So my current stance is I'm back on the peak.

00:17:05   There's a lot about the peak I do really like,

00:17:07   so I'm just gonna stick with it for a while

00:17:09   and just deal with the fact that it doesn't hold that much,

00:17:12   and on trips just get reaccustomed to the idea

00:17:15   that I'm just gonna be bringing a small rolling suitcase

00:17:18   for the overhead bin in addition to a backpack.

00:17:21   That's where I am on backpacks.

00:17:23   - I'm sorry to hear that.

00:17:24   So in terms of quality and things of that nature,

00:17:27   it sounds like the Tom Bin was fine.

00:17:28   It's just the ergonomics against your,

00:17:32   that particular bag against your particular body,

00:17:34   just it wasn't compatible.

00:17:36   - As far as I can tell, yes.

00:17:38   I mean, I don't wanna go through a big parade of returns

00:17:41   with them trying out all their other bags.

00:17:43   - Totally, totally. - I'm just gonna kinda

00:17:44   hold off and maybe if I ever visit Seattle,

00:17:46   I'll visit their store, but for now,

00:17:49   I'm happier enough with the Peak.

00:17:52   It's funny, actually, the Peak does actually work

00:17:54   significantly better than the Tom Bin in one major way

00:17:57   for the way I happen to use a bag,

00:17:59   which is the vast majority of the time,

00:18:02   my backpack is sitting next to my desk on the floor

00:18:06   and the laptop is in it, and the power cable

00:18:08   that keeps the laptop charged is kind of like

00:18:11   floating out through the top of the bag,

00:18:12   like with the laptop compartment open.

00:18:14   So it's always plugged in, but ready to go.

00:18:17   And the Tom Bihn bags, they can't stand up by themselves.

00:18:21   The Peak does, 'cause it's so much bigger,

00:18:23   and it's so much bulkier fabric,

00:18:24   and it's more rigid fabric, whereas the Tom Bihn

00:18:27   is more like just like a floppy bag, basically.

00:18:30   And you can buy a frame for it,

00:18:31   but that makes it weird in ways that I didn't want.

00:18:34   So the Peak actually works significantly better the way my backpack is actually used most

00:18:39   of the time, which is standing up on the floor next to my desk where the Tom Binge would

00:18:44   constantly flop over.

00:18:46   So I guess it's good for that.

00:18:48   And ultimately the Peak is not bad.

00:18:50   I really do enjoy a lot about it.

00:18:53   It's a really nice bag.

00:18:55   I wish it held more.

00:18:57   And there is a 30 liter version of the Peak, but by all accounts the 30 liter is way too

00:19:03   too big by what most people say for what I'm going for,

00:19:07   which is fitting under an airline seat no matter what.

00:19:09   'Cause like one thing that drives me nuts,

00:19:11   and this is kind of the reason why I'm sticking

00:19:13   with the 20, I think, when I travel,

00:19:16   I always want my backpack under the seat

00:19:19   in front of me on a plane, always.

00:19:20   There is never a situation where I wanna put the backpack

00:19:22   in the overhead bin.

00:19:24   And I hate, like, I always, when I'm booking seats,

00:19:26   I always go to Seat Guru and I check the plane,

00:19:29   not to see like, you know, that I'm getting a seat

00:19:32   that's not next to a bathroom or anything,

00:19:33   I mainly am checking the seat I'm booking

00:19:35   to make sure I have storage under the seat in front of me.

00:19:39   'Cause on a lot of planes now,

00:19:41   and a lot of types of seats,

00:19:43   you either have a bulkhead in front of you,

00:19:45   or a galley, or the seat,

00:19:48   or you have those big computer boxes under the seats

00:19:50   that take up half the space

00:19:52   so you can't actually fit anything under there.

00:19:54   So it's really hard to know,

00:19:56   without checking something like Seat Guru,

00:19:57   whether you have anywhere to put something under the seat.

00:19:59   And I don't wanna keep going up and down

00:20:01   to the overhead compartment to get stuff out

00:20:04   during a long flight.

00:20:05   So I always want something that can fit under the seat.

00:20:07   And so almost every bag that can hold more

00:20:10   than the Peak 20 liter, if you actually put more in it,

00:20:13   you start increasing the risk that it's not gonna fit

00:20:16   under the seat in front of you.

00:20:18   So that's yet another reason why I think I'm coming

00:20:20   to the conclusion that one backpack travel

00:20:23   is probably not something I actually want.

00:20:26   Because if I actually achieve one backpack travel

00:20:30   for almost any trip, the backpack is gonna have to be

00:20:32   too big for me to reliably fit it under the seat

00:20:36   in front of me on those flights.

00:20:38   So I think I'm gonna, again, just go back

00:20:40   to having a small roller bag in the overhead bin

00:20:43   and a small to medium-sized backpack for under the seat.

00:20:48   - Fair enough, that's a bummer.

00:20:50   I'm sad that Tom Biddon didn't work out,

00:20:51   but I still wholeheartedly and enthusiastically endorse it.

00:20:56   So that's okay.

00:20:57   - The other thing that's imposing size constraints

00:20:58   besides the underneath of the airline seat, perhaps,

00:21:02   to Marco's comfort with backpacks, is his back.

00:21:04   So you got the smaller backpack,

00:21:06   and it doesn't quite hold your stuff,

00:21:07   but maybe it fits your back better than a big one would,

00:21:10   and so that if you got any big backpack,

00:21:12   then no matter how well it fit under a seat or not,

00:21:14   it might just not feel comfortable on you.

00:21:16   - Yeah, yeah, that's true.

00:21:18   - All right, tell us about your Facebook problems.

00:21:20   - So as we discussed, I believe it was last episode,

00:21:22   I still had a Facebook account,

00:21:25   which I never really used for much of anything.

00:21:27   I hardly ever really posted anything ever,

00:21:29   but the main reason I was using it was for membership

00:21:33   in a couple of private groups.

00:21:35   And I didn't wanna lose that because it provided access

00:21:38   to things like my beach town that I love so much

00:21:41   and local school stuff and everything else.

00:21:44   And in the meantime, I discovered something wonderful.

00:21:47   I discovered that the school group is useless

00:21:50   because I actually looked at it and I'm like,

00:21:53   have I ever gotten any value out of this?

00:21:54   And the answer was no.

00:21:56   And the beach group, I discovered,

00:21:58   there's also a bunch of beach people on Instagram

00:22:01   from the same town that post a lot of pictures and stuff.

00:22:04   And I realized that what I mostly wanted out of that group

00:22:07   was pictures of what's going on in town while I'm not there.

00:22:10   And Instagram provides that

00:22:13   without any of the angry old people

00:22:14   that are complaining about whatever happened

00:22:16   at the latest meeting with the village trustees

00:22:19   and the mayor and all that crap.

00:22:20   I mean, God, anybody out there who works in local government

00:22:25   I thank you.

00:22:27   I thank you for your service.

00:22:29   The (beep)storm that local government tends to be,

00:22:34   I can't imagine dealing with that every day.

00:22:36   Because if you've ever been part of a Facebook group

00:22:39   that has your local town stuff in it,

00:22:41   or if you've ever gone to a meeting,

00:22:44   like a variance meeting or any kind of town

00:22:46   or village government meeting,

00:22:48   it's like Parks and Rec.

00:22:49   The people are that bad.

00:22:52   Anybody who works local government,

00:22:54   These jobs are oftentimes either unpaid

00:22:57   or part-time, very low-paid jobs.

00:23:01   They are completely thankless jobs (laughs)

00:23:05   and they are incredibly important

00:23:07   for making things work functionally in our society

00:23:10   and making things nice in our neighborhoods.

00:23:13   And all I ever see on Facebook groups and in these meetings

00:23:17   is bitter, angry people just throwing complaints

00:23:22   at the local government people and asking for the impossible

00:23:26   and not understanding actual constraints

00:23:29   and actual factors that went into things.

00:23:32   So anybody who works out there in local government,

00:23:34   I applaud you and I thank you

00:23:36   and I could never ever do that.

00:23:37   And I very much respect your ability to do that.

00:23:40   Anyway, so I realized that the Facebook group

00:23:44   for The Beach Town was pretty much 90% those complaints

00:23:49   and 10% pretty pictures that I wanted to see.

00:23:52   And Instagram is 100% pretty pictures I wanna see

00:23:55   and none of the complaints from the old people.

00:23:58   So I just left the group and deleted my account

00:24:01   and it's just done.

00:24:03   I'm just following things on Instagram now,

00:24:04   which yes I know is owned by Facebook

00:24:06   so that kind of takes a lot of the wind out of the sails

00:24:09   of why I'm leaving Facebook. (laughs)

00:24:12   But otherwise I'm out and I'm happy that I'm out.

00:24:16   - Since everyone's been talking about Facebook,

00:24:18   I guess because of the Cambridge Analytica thing

00:24:19   and stuff on various podcasts I've been listening to,

00:24:21   Everyone has had that section of the podcast

00:24:23   that we've had now on two or three podcasts in a row,

00:24:25   which is like, I don't like Facebook, but I like Instagram,

00:24:28   and yes, I know Instagram is on by Facebook,

00:24:30   so blah, blah, blah, right?

00:24:31   But the more I keep hearing that, the more I think,

00:24:34   yeah, so it's not great that it's owned by Facebook,

00:24:37   but by voting with your feed or whatever,

00:24:40   voting with your virtual feed,

00:24:41   you are sending the signal that I don't like

00:24:44   how Facebook works, I like how Instagram works.

00:24:47   Now, Instagram can change, 'cause owned by Facebook,

00:24:49   it could start working in different ways,

00:24:50   already has with the stupid algorithmic timeline or whatever, right?

00:24:53   But that I think is just as strong a signal as like, well, you're not really sending any

00:24:57   signal if you just delete your Facebook account but just use Instagram and it's also owned

00:25:00   by Facebook.

00:25:01   Yes, you're sending, in this case, you're sending Facebook the signal, Facebook bad,

00:25:04   Instagram good.

00:25:06   More like Instagram, less like Facebook.

00:25:08   And of course, if Facebook changes Instagram into Facebook, then you probably leave that

00:25:11   too, right?

00:25:12   But this, it's still a signal, even though it's going to the same company.

00:25:15   If your goal is to the downfall of Facebook, I think you're going to have to wait for the

00:25:19   generational turnover to bite them in the butt when the kids that are growing up now

00:25:24   who don't want a Facebook account don't get one.

00:25:26   But I don't think the goal is tear down as a revenge fantasy.

00:25:32   The goal is stop making, you know, make things like Facebook, fewer things like Facebook,

00:25:38   more things like Instagram.

00:25:40   And so that's the signal you're sending.

00:25:41   So I don't, you know, if anyone gives you crap about that or says, "Well, it's pointless

00:25:45   because you're going to Instagram because they're owned by Facebook," I don't totally

00:25:47   agree with that.

00:25:48   coming from, but I think it's still a, it's a good move.

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00:28:12   (upbeat music)

00:28:13   - Jon, you need to tell me about something.

00:28:16   You need to tell me what is not a touchscreen.

00:28:19   - I was on, it was like a school vacation week last week

00:28:24   and I was away visiting family,

00:28:27   seeing all the sights to be seen in a different state.

00:28:30   And one of the week I had time to go to the movies,

00:28:33   which is a rarity.

00:28:34   And one of the things I noticed

00:28:35   that the movie theater was going to was an AMC

00:28:37   and we go to a local AMC too,

00:28:38   but it was like a, we had to buy tickets there

00:28:41   because the AMC app and website and the Fandango app

00:28:45   and website were all just not doing well.

00:28:48   They didn't seem to be working at all.

00:28:50   I tried to buy the ticket and it would give me

00:28:51   some obscure error, some sort of like 503 proxy error

00:28:56   from the back end and get propagated all the way up

00:28:58   into an iOS dialogue on my phone.

00:28:59   I'm like, well, whatever.

00:29:01   So there's nobody there, it's the middle of the week,

00:29:03   we're just gonna go and show up and buy tickets.

00:29:04   And we had no problem getting a ticket.

00:29:05   It was an empty theater, it was the middle of the day.

00:29:08   It was like a 10 a.m. movie show, which I love.

00:29:10   I love going to movies when no one else is there.

00:29:13   But so we had to go to the physical kiosk

00:29:16   to buy movie tickets.

00:29:18   And the kiosk was like, there was like a screen

00:29:20   that the point of sale person used

00:29:21   to do whatever they were doing is not facing us.

00:29:24   And there was also a screen facing us.

00:29:25   And at one point, they said-- because these are all

00:29:27   like reserved seating in the AMC theaters these days.

00:29:29   It's like, which seats do you want?

00:29:30   When you buy tickets through the app,

00:29:32   it also lets you pick seats.

00:29:33   By the way, this is why we go to AMC,

00:29:35   because reserved seating in movie theaters is the best.

00:29:38   And they said, pick your seats.

00:29:40   And the screen in front of you, facing you,

00:29:42   shows the seat layout in the theater

00:29:44   with the ones that are taken, dimmed out,

00:29:46   and the ones that are still available,

00:29:47   highlighted or whatever.

00:29:49   And they have big labels on them,

00:29:51   like F1, F2, F3 or whatever.

00:29:53   But the screen that's facing you,

00:29:54   it's just a plain old LCD.

00:29:56   And they have a giant,

00:29:58   printed on a Brother label printer label

00:30:01   on the bottom of the monitor facing you

00:30:04   that says in all caps, "Not a touchscreen."

00:30:07   Because what you see on the screen is a bunch of seats,

00:30:10   and you're like, oh, I want the seat, the seat, and this seat.

00:30:12   Like everybody just immediately reaches for the screen

00:30:14   and touches seats A, B, C,

00:30:15   like you just touch the seats you want, right?

00:30:17   'Cause if the screen is facing you, it's right there.

00:30:20   But to stop people from doing that,

00:30:22   they have to have the sticker.

00:30:23   And not just have the sticker,

00:30:24   which by the way is not part of the monitor,

00:30:25   like this has been added afterwards,

00:30:27   like added by the dealer in car parlance, right?

00:30:29   The sticker.

00:30:30   Also, as part of like the spiel that they do,

00:30:33   like the sales pitch that the poor worker there

00:30:37   is mindlessly going through every time they say,

00:30:39   What show do you want to see, blah, blah, blah.

00:30:41   You know, it goes through the whole thing.

00:30:43   And there is a part in the little speech where they say,

00:30:46   please select the seats you want

00:30:48   and remember that is not a touchscreen.

00:30:49   Or like it was part of the thing.

00:30:51   And they were saying it kind of like bored offhand

00:30:53   and mindlessly that it is literally part of the script

00:30:56   that they go through every single time.

00:30:58   They have to warn every single person

00:30:59   that it's not a touchscreen and have the sticker.

00:31:01   And I bet people still touch the screen.

00:31:03   So I tweeted about this and people replied to me

00:31:05   and they say, despite being told that it's not a touchscreen,

00:31:07   despite the label, I also touched it.

00:31:09   or I've seen other people touch it,

00:31:10   or I work in a movie theater and people touch it all the time,

00:31:12   there's no way you can stop them from touching the screen.

00:31:14   So I was really thinking about how fundamentally now,

00:31:18   not just for like little kids, this is the whole thing,

00:31:20   of like, oh, little kids, aren't they funny,

00:31:22   they're always swiping on every screen they see

00:31:23   'cause they grew up with phones and iPads, right?

00:31:25   Everybody, senior citizens, adults, little kids, teenagers,

00:31:28   everybody, if presented with the screen

00:31:31   and anything appears on the screen

00:31:32   that looks like there's any possibility

00:31:34   that you could touch it before any part

00:31:35   of their brain kicks in, their tiny lizard brain goes,

00:31:38   much touch screen. So this is like the default way to interact with screen to the point where

00:31:43   if you ever have a screen that it doesn't allow that, you need a giant all caps label

00:31:47   and a verbal warning and you still won't stop people from touching it.

00:31:51   And all this makes me think, I posted about this because I just thought it was a funny

00:31:56   extreme thing, but it's a big change. And I finished the tweet by saying, "How long

00:32:00   before MacBooks need a similar sticker?" Remember when MacBooks used to say MacBook Pro right

00:32:03   underneath the screen, right? Instead of saying MacBook Pro, it should just say "Not a touchscreen"

00:32:09   in all caps. And this gets back to the touchscreen laptop thing, which I don't think is a particularly

00:32:16   great thing to have. I think it puts fingerprints on your screen. I think it's gross. I don't

00:32:20   really think I would want one. But as every single person who has ever encountered a touch,

00:32:25   you know, a laptop with a touchscreen says, "Once you have one, you will find yourself

00:32:29   touching every laptop screen." Not all the time. Not that you're constantly using it

00:32:32   touch because that would be bad. There's a reason you have a trackpad, there's a reason

00:32:34   you might have a mouse attached. But once you are able to touch it for anything, you

00:32:41   expect to be able to touch every laptop screen. It's like one of those one-way valves. Before

00:32:45   you have a touchscreen, fine, you're fine, no big deal. Once you have one, then you just

00:32:49   expect it all the time. And this has been happening in the PC world. And so we talked

00:32:53   about this before, about the touch bar and if and when Apple will ever succumb to this

00:32:56   trend and finally put a touch screen on Macs.

00:33:00   And for me it's starting to feel like the time when Apple wouldn't make a bigger phone

00:33:04   and the entire market was saying, "No, we love bigger phones."

00:33:06   And it's like, "Well, is it that big a deal?

00:33:09   This is some big phones.

00:33:10   You know, do people really want them?

00:33:12   They're kind of dumb.

00:33:13   This phone shouldn't be too big.

00:33:14   It doesn't fit in your pocket, blah, blah, blah."

00:33:16   You can have all the intellectual reasons you want, but the bottom line is if people

00:33:18   buy them and maybe they don't, you know, like a touchscreen and laptops, maybe they don't

00:33:22   love them or like them so much, but if they just expect them.

00:33:25   The expectation is that every screen in the world must be a touch screen, otherwise it's

00:33:29   basically considered broken by everybody of all ages of every generation, simply because

00:33:33   occasionally, the most natural thing to do is touch a screen.

00:33:38   Not all the time, not as your sole mean of interaction, but sometimes your body, having

00:33:43   been trained by smartphones and iPads and everything else, just expects to be able to

00:33:47   reach out and touch a screen.

00:33:48   And so rather than verbal and visual warnings on screens, it seems to me that we just need

00:33:53   to make every screen a touchscreen just for those cases where it does feel natural to

00:33:57   touch the screen, even though I still don't want anyone touching the screen on any of

00:34:00   my computers.

00:34:01   Of course.

00:34:02   Have you ever accidentally touched the screen on your own laptop?

00:34:05   Hell no.

00:34:06   I would never do that.

00:34:07   Now, here's the one-way valve.

00:34:09   If I got a laptop that had a touchscreen, I bet I would touch it.

00:34:12   And then I bet I would start touching my non-touchscreen laptops and be annoyed.

00:34:15   I mean, we've all done this, right?

00:34:16   Have you ever pinched a Zuma magazine?

00:34:18   I have.

00:34:21   I have also reached for the forward slash key on my lap while reading a magazine to do a search

00:34:28   for it's like you know if you're in a pager and unix or whatever and and gotten far enough where

00:34:32   my finger is basically touched the top of my thigh and realized there's no keyboard down there you

00:34:36   can't do do a search in a magazine I don't think I think it might have swiped once mostly it's

00:34:43   pinched to zoom that gets me I've pinched zoom on paper happens all the time humans are dumb little

00:34:48   - Little monkeys.

00:34:49   - Yeah, I never touched a screen,

00:34:52   like my own laptop screen at all until about two years ago

00:34:57   where it started happening about once a year.

00:34:59   I will be reading something

00:35:01   and will try to touch a screen to scroll it.

00:35:03   That's usually what happens.

00:35:05   - It would be worse with a simulator.

00:35:06   I'm surprised you haven't done that

00:35:07   with doing all your iOS dev

00:35:08   because what you're seeing is visually

00:35:09   like this is an iOS interface.

00:35:11   You should touch it, but you can't.

00:35:13   - Yeah, I think this plays into, I think,

00:35:16   a lot of PC strategy issues.

00:35:18   Like Apple has been standing the line firmly

00:35:21   that touchscreen laptops are not good.

00:35:23   That people don't want them, people shouldn't want them.

00:35:26   That's not the right solution.

00:35:28   But man, the market just keeps saying otherwise.

00:35:31   You know, and there's a lot of downsides to it.

00:35:33   There's a lot of consideration that has to be done

00:35:35   to do it well.

00:35:36   And yeah, your laptop will be covered in fingerprints.

00:35:39   - They all already are.

00:35:41   That's the thing though, they all already are.

00:35:42   - Well that's you.

00:35:43   But like my iPad's covered in fingerprints.

00:35:45   - Yeah, because the coding sucks, I'm a 10.5 Pro,

00:35:49   but also that's just the reality of having an iPad.

00:35:52   At some point I'm gonna have to wipe my 15 inch

00:35:54   MacBook Pro screen on my jeans to get all those figures off,

00:35:58   but that is what people are doing.

00:36:01   And at what point, if it hasn't already happened,

00:36:05   at what point will most people go into an Apple store

00:36:09   thinking, oh, maybe I'll switch to a Mac,

00:36:11   touch the screen, it doesn't work,

00:36:13   and they'll be like, well, that kinda sucks.

00:36:15   Those are more stories I got on Twitter of people who work in Apple stores with people

00:36:18   who see it saying, "People come into Apple stores, try to touch the screens on the Mac

00:36:23   and expect it to work."

00:36:24   They don't know anything about Macs.

00:36:26   They just come in and they expect it to work.

00:36:28   Sometimes they think it's broken or will tell the person they think the thing is broken

00:36:30   and the nice salespeople will lead them towards an iPad in that case, but it's just the expectation.

00:36:34   I think Apple's reasoning behind, "You don't want to have your arm sticking out.

00:36:39   It's not a good way to interact with a laptop," that's all true, but I think the thing they're

00:36:42   missing is like, you're not touching it all the time. Of

00:36:45   course, most of the time, you'd be using the trackpad, right. But

00:36:48   just every once in a while, like when you find yourself swiping

00:36:51   to scroll on the screen, it's not as if you're saying now I

00:36:54   have to exclusively touch my laptop screen is the way to

00:36:56   control it. That would be dumb. And Apple emphasizes that you

00:36:59   would never if we took away the trackpad and said you have to

00:37:02   the only way you can use your laptop as a passion screen.

00:37:04   Nobody would like that unless you can convert it into a tablet

00:37:06   or whatever. But as an occasional input method, it's

00:37:10   surprisingly sticky, and mostly because Apple has themselves to blame. They are

00:37:14   the one that showed that touch screens can work and be insanely popular. There

00:37:19   were touch screens for years and years and everyone hated them and no one used

00:37:21   them for anything. Apple, it's Apple's own fault that touch screens have raced

00:37:25   through the industry to become the dominant form interaction with

00:37:29   computing devices, because the phone is now the dominant computing device and

00:37:31   the number one and basically only way that people interact with phones is by

00:37:35   touching them. I'm not gonna be touching the 8k screen on my Mac Pro, I can

00:37:40   you that. Unless it lays down like a cool, like, what is that? Microsoft has the worst

00:37:45   damn names. I cannot remember. Studio Books? Surface Studio, I believe. I would consider

00:37:51   that. If you want to get me an 8K drafting table, I would consider it Apple.

00:37:55   All right, so speaking of touch screens, let's talk about the iPhone X user survey. So techpinions.com,

00:38:01   written by Ben Bajarin. Bajarin, I think. Thank you. Ben writes that he and his team

00:38:09   conducted a survey of iPhone X users, and there's a lot of customer set to be talked

00:38:15   about, and the customer satisfaction for darn near everything is great. It starts, even

00:38:21   Face ID, the customer satisfaction is between 90 and 100% based on this one survey. Battery

00:38:25   life between 90 and 100%. Things fall off a little bit how it feels in your hand without

00:38:30   a case, fall off a smidge more, still at about 85% for portrait mode. Portrait selfies, now

00:38:36   Now we're down in like the 65% range.

00:38:39   But then we start talking about Siri.

00:38:44   And it's an inverted hockey stick because we go from like 90s to 100s to 80s to 60s

00:38:51   to 20%.

00:38:53   One out of five people is satisfied with Siri and that's it.

00:38:56   And I would like to meet that one out of five persons because who is actually satisfied

00:39:01   with Siri?

00:39:02   People who don't use it?

00:39:04   What is this?

00:39:05   But yeah, I don't know that there's all that much to discuss here other than to say, "I

00:39:10   don't understand."

00:39:11   Well, I was going to say, "I don't understand why Apple doesn't see this as a problem,"

00:39:15   but that's unfair.

00:39:16   I think Apple sees this as a problem, and I've heard through the grapevine that there's

00:39:19   been a lot of hiring for the Siri team lately.

00:39:23   But golly, it's more apparent with every passing day how broken Siri is, and God help me for

00:39:31   for sending Marco down on this tangent,

00:39:33   but how broken modern MacBook keyboards are.

00:39:35   (laughing)

00:39:36   - Yeah, I mean, so, the keyboards aside,

00:39:38   because we talk about that every other episode,

00:39:40   what concerns me so much about the Siri thing

00:39:42   is that it seems like Apple has just woken up

00:39:45   to how bad Siri is, like, since the HomePod came out

00:39:49   and was panned for having bad Siri.

00:39:51   But that was not new.

00:39:53   Like, all of us knew that Siri is mediocre to terrible

00:39:57   much of the time for years now.

00:40:01   And it really does seem like that caught Apple by surprise.

00:40:05   So it's like yet another thing, similar to the laptops, yes,

00:40:09   I get worried when Apple gets so blindsided

00:40:12   by reactions or problems that seem so obvious

00:40:18   to its customers.

00:40:19   I don't know how they could have not known that.

00:40:21   You know, just like, I don't know how they could have

00:40:22   not known that the reaction to the MacBook Pros

00:40:24   would have been so negative.

00:40:26   I don't know how they could have not known

00:40:27   that Siri was as bad as it is until recently.

00:40:30   but it certainly does seem like they haven't been

00:40:33   doing much about it until recently, so that is concerning.

00:40:37   On the bigger picture though, I was kind of curious,

00:40:40   and I have to make this all about how much Siri sucks

00:40:42   'cause that's not news, and also,

00:40:43   will not change anytime soon, I'm a little curious

00:40:46   to kind of morph this topic and steal it.

00:40:48   One of my favorite bits on the show

00:40:49   was the iPhone 7 exit interview,

00:40:52   and I kind of want to do like the iPhone 10

00:40:55   mid-cycle performance review.

00:40:57   (laughing)

00:40:58   - Oh, it's very well done, Marco.

00:41:00   I'm very proud of you.

00:41:01   - Thank you, yeah.

00:41:01   I assume it's a real thing.

00:41:02   - He watches The Office a lot.

00:41:04   - Yeah. (laughs)

00:41:05   - He knows the words, but only from TV.

00:41:07   - And I know, John, you don't have one,

00:41:09   but I was at least curious to talk about,

00:41:11   you know, just like, what we think of the iPhone X,

00:41:14   now that it's roughly halfway through

00:41:16   its year of being, you know, the top phone,

00:41:19   what do we think of it?

00:41:20   - Well, let me go first, because even though

00:41:22   I don't have a phone, because I do play with my iPhone,

00:41:24   and just to cap off this article,

00:41:26   'cause when I saw this article teased,

00:41:27   I forget where I saw it teased.

00:41:28   On some site there was, might have been Loop Insight

00:41:31   or whatever, it was like iPhone survey broken down

00:41:36   by category and you're never gonna guess

00:41:38   which category had the lowest score.

00:41:39   It was some kind of tease like that that was like,

00:41:41   guess which bar in the bar chart is gonna be really small.

00:41:46   And before I clicked through the link,

00:41:47   I thought, hmm, I wonder which one it's gonna be.

00:41:49   And immediately I thought, it's gotta be Face ID, right?

00:41:51   Like everyone loves everything else,

00:41:52   but Face ID is the only thing that's possibly shaky

00:41:54   on this phone, right?

00:41:56   And the reason I thought that is because

00:41:57   I hadn't even considered that Siri would be one of the bars.

00:42:01   Had someone said, oh, by the way, Siri's a bar,

00:42:03   I'm like, oh, that's the one.

00:42:04   But I didn't even consider Siri would be one of the bars,

00:42:06   because it's just such a non-factor in my experience

00:42:10   of using my phone, and I never see anyone in my family

00:42:13   really use it for much of anything either,

00:42:15   that I didn't even think it would be on the chart.

00:42:17   And so, on the iPhone X, on this survey,

00:42:21   Face ID is right up there.

00:42:24   It's not even one of the lower bars,

00:42:26   kind of middle tier bar, above 90%.

00:42:29   And my experience is seeing my wife use her iPhone X.

00:42:32   She doesn't care anything about tech.

00:42:33   She's not super impressed by the amazing technology that implements Face ID.

00:42:37   She has a few complaints about situations where it doesn't work, but overall, I don't

00:42:40   hear about Face ID from her.

00:42:43   It's not an issue.

00:42:44   It's not a thing that she tells me she's annoyed about or I never see her struggle with it.

00:42:48   It has different trade-offs in Touch ID, but she has accommodated them.

00:42:52   And like I said, she's not inclined to accommodate them because she's dazzled by the G-WIS technology.

00:42:57   I'm dazzled by the G-WIS technology.

00:42:58   I think it's amazing that it works.

00:43:00   But as far as she's concerned, it's just her phone and she unlocks it and it's fine.

00:43:05   And so I feel like as I proxy for her, for her satisfaction with the phone, I haven't

00:43:11   heard any complaints.

00:43:12   And yes, she complains to me if there's something wrong with her phone as if I made it.

00:43:14   I didn't make it.

00:43:15   But she likes it.

00:43:17   She likes her phone.

00:43:18   She doesn't complain about it.

00:43:19   and does all the things it's supposed to do.

00:43:22   And even though, she was coming from a 6S+, right,

00:43:25   even though the X is a little bit smaller,

00:43:27   I haven't even heard complaints about that

00:43:28   in terms of screen area.

00:43:29   I haven't heard complaints about battery life.

00:43:31   So I think the iPhone X is a very successful product.

00:43:35   Again, not using one myself, I can't really judge it

00:43:37   against the 7 or the 6S+ or whatever,

00:43:40   but it seems really good to me.

00:43:43   - I think it's a mixed bag, but overall, very good.

00:43:47   Face ID still, I like it 80 to 90% of the time,

00:43:52   which makes sense given the survey we saw.

00:43:54   Other people apparently liked it 95% of the time.

00:43:57   But as I've lamented a couple times on this show,

00:44:00   when I don't have my contact lenses in,

00:44:02   I can only see very close to my face.

00:44:06   And before anyone writes in, I have tried all of the tricks.

00:44:11   All of them, I have tried them.

00:44:12   I have turned off attention detection.

00:44:15   I have turned up and down the speed

00:44:18   to which the phone locks.

00:44:19   I've tried it, I appreciate the help, I do,

00:44:21   but I've tried it.

00:44:22   But yeah, especially at night

00:44:24   when I don't have my contacts in,

00:44:25   and the phone is, I mean, to be fair,

00:44:27   the phone is like three or four inches from my face,

00:44:30   if I don't actively touch and fiddle

00:44:32   with the screen constantly,

00:44:35   I feel like it just almost instantly locks itself

00:44:38   all the time, and it's the weirdest thing.

00:44:40   - Isn't there supposed to be an iOS update,

00:44:42   speaking of close to your face,

00:44:43   that makes it work better close up?

00:44:45   Is that like a rumored thing for iOS 12,

00:44:47   or is that a thing that came in a point updater?

00:44:48   - I think it might've already come

00:44:49   because it has gotten better,

00:44:51   but it is not perfect by any stretch of the imagination.

00:44:55   But in regular working,

00:44:57   so you could reasonably treat that

00:45:00   as an accessibility issue,

00:45:01   and I'm asking for an accessibility affordance,

00:45:04   and I can understand that argument.

00:45:07   But in normal use,

00:45:10   I don't have the Ray-Ban sunglasses

00:45:12   that apparently everyone else has,

00:45:13   so I don't have any problem with my sunglasses on, my Warby Parkers work great.

00:45:18   Even when I have eyeglasses on, which I occasionally wear to get me to slightly less blurry vision,

00:45:24   it still works fine.

00:45:25   If I have a beard, don't have a beard, it works fine.

00:45:27   So in normal use, it actually works quite well.

00:45:30   It's only this nighttime, really, really close to my face that it all falls down.

00:45:35   The lack of home button, I actually really like it.

00:45:40   Swiping to get out of an app, swiping the bottom to go between apps, the up and to the right,

00:45:46   like L action in order to do the multitasking switcher.

00:45:49   I really, really like the gesture-based navigation, and I am all in on it.

00:45:55   And if I had to go back to a phone that didn't have this, I think it would be really, really frustrating.

00:46:01   I don't know if it actually is any faster, but gosh, does it ever feel faster, even if it isn't.

00:46:08   What are the little animojis? Animojis, I've used them like five times. It was exactly what everyone thought. It was a flash in the pan.

00:46:14   We've never looked back.

00:46:15   I still think the idea is fair and I still think having like seasonal animojis would be cool. Like say you only had Santa,

00:46:22   you know, from

00:46:24   November until January and maybe you only had a Jack-o'-lantern from like, I don't know,

00:46:29   September through the end of October or something like that. I think that would be a lot of fun. They haven't done that yet.

00:46:33   So animoji, kind of, eh. I love the

00:46:37   I do like the size of it. Of course. I'll always miss the size of the four series phones. I wish I had the

00:46:44   Gumption to use it without a case. I'm using it with the Apple provided leather case, which is nice

00:46:51   But I've just taken it out of the case and it is considerably thinner and and feels much better without the case

00:46:57   But given that the back is glass I am petrified to drop this thing and and shatter it

00:47:03   So it lives in the case always. Oh, and we also talked about recently

00:47:06   how much I, and I think Marco was the other one who said the same, love, love, love inductive

00:47:13   charging. It's such a stupid thing on paper. Like, who cares? Is your life really that

00:47:18   hard Casey, that you can't plug in your frickin' phone at night? No, it's not that hard, but

00:47:23   it's delightful to not have to, and I quite like that. So, love the inductive charging,

00:47:29   love the gesture-based navigation, Face ID, four stars out of five, and oh, and the cameras

00:47:35   cameras are really great too. In portrait mode, it's decent. In the right situation

00:47:42   it can be incredible, and in every other situation it's passable unless your name is Joe Steele.

00:47:49   I think that's it.

00:47:50   - Alright, so I don't care about the portrait mode. I do think that it is possible to shoot

00:47:56   decent looking photos with it. That just isn't the common case. Otherwise I do love the cameras.

00:48:01   The cameras are great.

00:48:03   Face ID is not good enough.

00:48:04   It's fine, but it's not great.

00:48:07   Very, very similar to first generation Touch ID,

00:48:10   but even a little bit more frustrating, I think, sometimes,

00:48:12   and why it fails or when it fails.

00:48:14   I really think Face ID needs to get a lot better.

00:48:17   And hopefully it will.

00:48:18   That's the kind of thing Apple tends to be pretty good at.

00:48:21   I think it's a little bit harder of a problem

00:48:23   than Touch ID to make it that reliable,

00:48:25   but I think they can do it.

00:48:26   One thing that bugs me about the size is that,

00:48:31   So I'm a left-handed phone user,

00:48:32   even though I'm right-handed,

00:48:33   because that's just how my pockets worked out,

00:48:35   'cause I grew up without phones first, then added phones.

00:48:37   So I hold my phone in my left hand.

00:48:39   Almost every time I'm putting my phone back into my pocket

00:48:43   when I'm done using it,

00:48:45   I will very frequently accidentally tap something

00:48:48   on the screen with my left hand's middle finger

00:48:53   on the far right center edge of the screen

00:48:56   on the way into my pocket.

00:48:57   And so this, what usually ends up happening

00:49:00   is I'll be typing a message in messages

00:49:04   where it has the little microphone button

00:49:06   on the right side of the text field

00:49:08   to send an audio message, and I'll turn the phone off.

00:49:12   As I lower the phone into my pocket,

00:49:14   the screen wakes back up, or maybe I doesn't turn it off.

00:49:18   Right, anyway, on the way into my pocket,

00:49:21   my middle finger will accidentally brush

00:49:24   that edge of the screen, touch the audio message button,

00:49:27   and I'll hear boop boop as it goes in my pocket,

00:49:29   and the next time I take it out of my pocket,

00:49:30   there's like a big audio block there waiting to be sent.

00:49:32   - This can't be the case because I have this problem

00:49:36   and I hold my phone in my right hand.

00:49:40   I think, and I actually meant to mention this,

00:49:42   I always blamed it on my case.

00:49:44   I felt like my case occasionally,

00:49:46   like the, and this is again the Apple leather case.

00:49:49   - Oh my God, I just figured it out.

00:49:50   - Go ahead.

00:49:51   - There's a feature that no one knows about

00:49:53   where if you hold the phone up to your ear.

00:49:56   - Damn it, Marco, you gotta give me a chance.

00:49:58   - Oh man, that's it, I gotta turn that off.

00:50:00   - So I think that's exactly what it is.

00:50:02   - Okay, now my iPhone X's perfect.

00:50:03   (laughing)

00:50:05   - Wait, what is it?

00:50:06   - Is that the feature you're thinking of?

00:50:07   - The feature is, if you're in messages,

00:50:09   if you hold the phone up to your ear

00:50:10   as if you're gonna talk on the phone,

00:50:12   it will do an audio message

00:50:14   just by detecting the ear detection there.

00:50:16   So what's happening is, as I'm putting it in my pocket,

00:50:20   the screen isn't fully asleep yet,

00:50:22   and so it thinks I'm putting it up to my ear

00:50:24   'cause it's getting blocked by my leg

00:50:26   on the way into my pocket.

00:50:27   - Yep, I think you're right.

00:50:28   - And so it starts an audio message,

00:50:30   then goes to sleep and realizes it doesn't need that

00:50:33   and cancels it.

00:50:34   - So the root problem is you're not actually

00:50:36   putting your phone, you're not actually hitting

00:50:37   like the power button or something to put it to sleep

00:50:39   before you shove it in your pocket.

00:50:40   'Cause once it locks, it's not gonna unlock again

00:50:42   until you have face ID on it.

00:50:44   Like it's not going to wake itself up and unlock itself

00:50:46   and then do the proximity detection, right?

00:50:49   - I don't care, this is the best thing ever

00:50:50   that I could solve this.

00:50:51   (laughing)

00:50:52   - See this is what I thought, John.

00:50:53   - Yeah, so okay, settings, messages, raise to listen,

00:50:56   turn it off. Now, if I hold it up to my headphones, oh, okay, it does nothing. So that, oh man,

00:51:05   that should solve it. Casey, I owe you one.

00:51:07   Yeah, I'm trying this right now. Yep, I'm going to turn that off. Anyway, but one way,

00:51:12   I always blamed it on the case because I agree with you, Jon, that it seems like the phone

00:51:16   isn't entirely off. And I always thought that the case was just misfiring or something because,

00:51:21   again, I've never really had the phone naked. But I was going to say, Marco, and you beat

00:51:25   me to it that I think maybe it's a combination of both. Maybe like Marco, your fingers grazing

00:51:31   the screen, maybe my case is just preventing the sleep/wake button from being hit. But

00:51:37   it's a combination of that and I think the proximity to our leg or something that is

00:51:41   causing it, or maybe it's just the accelerometer, who knows, but one way or another it's causing

00:51:45   it to think, "Oh, I need to start recording now." And so I cannot count the amount of

00:51:50   times that I'll feel a phantom buzz in my pocket, which as a religious Apple Watch wearer

00:51:55   That's a very unusual circumstance for my phone to buzz.

00:51:59   And so I'll feel a buzz in my pocket, which usually is indicative that the phone is still

00:52:02   on and that's in its silent and it took the alert away from the watch.

00:52:07   I should say that the watch never got the alert in the first place.

00:52:10   And so I'm, I pick up the phone and I'm still sitting in messages and there's like a 40

00:52:14   minute audio recording, just like you were saying, Marco, just sitting there.

00:52:18   And so I'm not sure what the, what the real issue is.

00:52:21   I agree that raise to wake might be part of the problem,

00:52:24   but I flipped off that switch and both of us

00:52:27   will have to see if that makes a difference.

00:52:28   - Yeah, I wonder, there might also be some kind of issue

00:52:31   where, 'cause you know how the iPhone X will,

00:52:33   and actually, I think the 7 and 8 also,

00:52:36   will detect when they're picked up

00:52:39   and will like unsleep the screen

00:52:42   because it's been picked up.

00:52:45   And maybe the detection of that is kinda misfiring

00:52:48   where maybe we are putting it to sleep,

00:52:51   Oh, it's called raise to wake, thank you, all in the chat.

00:52:53   So maybe the action of lowering the phone

00:52:55   from hand level back down to our pants,

00:52:59   maybe that's triggering raise to wake

00:53:01   right after we put it to sleep?

00:53:02   - Yeah, very well could be.

00:53:03   - I mean, if it hasn't moved from our face by that much,

00:53:07   theoretically, Face ID could fire during that time,

00:53:10   read our face on the way down.

00:53:12   Like, it is possible, but yeah,

00:53:14   so that's an annoying thing, I hope I just fixed it.

00:53:17   So, getting back to my iPhone X performance review,

00:53:21   other than that, and Face ID kind of just not being

00:53:25   fast enough or good enough, I really like this phone.

00:53:29   The battery life has been surprisingly good for me.

00:53:32   I don't think I've ever seen it go past, I think, 20%.

00:53:38   And even then, that's rare.

00:53:39   Most days, I'm ending it above 50.

00:53:42   And that's partially because there are

00:53:45   GE chargers all over my place,

00:53:46   and I love Qi charging.

00:53:49   As you said, it's so good.

00:53:51   So I'm just really, really happy

00:53:53   with the power situation on this phone.

00:53:58   - Speaking of Qi charging, a couple people

00:54:00   were complaining on Twitter today

00:54:01   about the AirPower mat that still hasn't materialized.

00:54:04   I know we've mostly forgotten about that,

00:54:06   but it's worth mentioning.

00:54:07   Apple did announce, did pre-announce a product

00:54:10   that we're still kind of waiting for.

00:54:11   - I'm shocked.

00:54:13   - Yeah, I mean, like this is a really long one though.

00:54:15   This is not like, oh, they pre-announced it.

00:54:17   It's so long that I frequently forget that it exists.

00:54:20   And I know technically probably we're within,

00:54:21   like they said, oh, next year,

00:54:22   so basically any time until December 31st

00:54:24   and they've technically met their deadline.

00:54:26   But this is another case where it's clear

00:54:28   that something has gone wrong somewhere.

00:54:30   - Yeah, and it's definitely concerning

00:54:32   that this seems to be happening a lot recently.

00:54:35   - Maybe it's because they made it white

00:54:36   and they can't make it the white.

00:54:37   Well, the good thing about it is, as you said,

00:54:38   it's not stopping you from wirelessly charging your phone.

00:54:41   They did use a third-party standard

00:54:43   and that's basically saved their bacon

00:54:44   because no one is stuck without a wireless charger

00:54:48   for your phone.

00:54:48   You can get one, and they're cheap, and they're plentiful,

00:54:50   and there's good ones and bad ones,

00:54:52   but we don't have to wait for Apple's thing.

00:54:54   And by the time Apple's thing comes out,

00:54:56   everyone will have already bought them,

00:54:57   except for people who haven't yet bought an iPhone X.

00:55:00   - Yeah, and the great thing about this,

00:55:02   they are so cheap, and they're diverse.

00:55:06   There's a much larger diversity of Qi chargers out there

00:55:10   than Apple would ever make themselves.

00:55:12   There's different form factors, different shapes,

00:55:14   different sizes, lots of different price points,

00:55:16   different intended environments for them to be in,

00:55:19   lots of different styles and looks,

00:55:21   different materials they're made out of.

00:55:22   So it's actually really a wonderful little ecosystem.

00:55:26   So yeah, I'm just very happy with Qi charging.

00:55:30   It's one of those things,

00:55:31   I'm sure the Android people are yelling at all of us.

00:55:35   You know we knew this like three years ago,

00:55:36   just like the Opera people.

00:55:37   I'm sure Opera had Qi charging first before everybody.

00:55:40   Then the Simpsons had it, and then Android had it,

00:55:42   and now we have it.

00:55:42   Okay, so if we can set that aside,

00:55:45   yes, we all know that we were not the first to this,

00:55:48   but it's still really nice and we now know this,

00:55:50   so we're very, very happy.

00:55:51   Otherwise, the size of the iPhone X,

00:55:54   I think is perfect for me.

00:55:57   It is a little tall and a little hard to get my hand around

00:56:00   sometimes for certain things, but for the most part,

00:56:03   it is significantly more holdable for me

00:56:06   than the Plus phones ever were,

00:56:08   and I do love the screen space.

00:56:12   I actually hope they don't shrink the margins anymore,

00:56:16   like the bezel around, because I'm worried

00:56:18   that I'll have more accidental tap issues

00:56:20   when I hold my phone without a case,

00:56:22   just like what I thought I was doing

00:56:24   with my finger on the side.

00:56:26   Otherwise, I'm just very happy with it.

00:56:28   It's fast.

00:56:29   I love the home button list thing.

00:56:32   One thing that I, like whenever I have to use Tiff's phone

00:56:36   or my iPad or things that are not the iPhone X,

00:56:39   What surprises me most is that I can't tap the screen

00:56:43   to turn it on.

00:56:44   Like that one little touch, like where,

00:56:46   'cause even on the iPhone 8, tapping the screen

00:56:49   does not wake the screen up.

00:56:50   Tapping the screen to turn it on is awesome.

00:56:52   I love that.

00:56:53   - Yeah, I've forgotten about that.

00:56:54   That's a very good point.

00:56:56   - Yeah, and then I also, and having swipe up to go home

00:56:58   is great.

00:57:00   I still don't like the increased motion and gestures

00:57:05   and time that it takes to force quit an app,

00:57:09   But I very much like how fast it is to switch apps now,

00:57:13   'cause you just swipe across the home indicator.

00:57:15   That's so good.

00:57:16   When you're flipping between apps, that is fantastic.

00:57:19   Given that switching apps for me is a more common action

00:57:22   than terminating one, I'll take that trade-off.

00:57:25   I do wish that they could do something great

00:57:28   for terminating ones, and I think they still can.

00:57:30   I think if they do pull up,

00:57:32   and then if just swiping up in the app switcher

00:57:36   on an app would terminate it,

00:57:37   instead of having to hold down first, then do that,

00:57:40   they could significantly improve that.

00:57:43   Control Center sucks.

00:57:45   - See, I disagree.

00:57:46   I don't understand why everyone has a burr

00:57:47   up their butts about this.

00:57:48   - So I'm finally accustomed to it a little bit more,

00:57:51   but now every time I try to pull out notifications,

00:57:53   I miss and I put on Control Center.

00:57:55   Like going for something that I have to pull down

00:57:57   from the top of the screen on my iPhone 10

00:57:59   is a lot like plugging in a micro USB cable.

00:58:02   It seems like it takes me three tries

00:58:05   to get the right thing every time.

00:58:07   - So true.

00:58:08   - Like I'm constantly pulling down the wrong thing

00:58:11   for what I want.

00:58:12   So that is one area that I think needs

00:58:15   significant improvement.

00:58:17   - So where are they gonna hide that though?

00:58:18   Speaking of improvement, everyone's like,

00:58:19   oh I hate control center and we all think

00:58:21   it's gonna be nice to reach, right?

00:58:23   Okay, but then how do you fix it?

00:58:24   - I think maybe it might be worth investigating

00:58:27   combining the two screens.

00:58:29   Like, phones are optimized pretty well for scrolling.

00:58:34   So maybe Control Center becomes just a vertically scrolling

00:58:38   thing where the notifications just go below

00:58:40   the controls you have picked.

00:58:42   Like there's enough space that they could actually do that.

00:58:46   'Cause right now they had this giant padding on top

00:58:48   of Control Center where they basically have

00:58:50   what looks like a 150 pixel tall status bar area.

00:58:55   They can just shrink that down to like 40.

00:58:58   And if they shrink that down,

00:58:59   but with the default number of controls in Control Center,

00:59:02   you'd have room for like three notifications

00:59:05   above the fold.

00:59:06   - But you would put them at the bottom?

00:59:08   - Yeah.

00:59:08   - Put the notifications at the bottom.

00:59:09   I think people like to peek at their notifications

00:59:11   and are expecting to look at the top of the screen.

00:59:13   - Well, they don't show in the top now,

00:59:14   they show kind of in the middle.

00:59:15   'Cause they show a giant clock above it.

00:59:18   - Yeah, I don't know.

00:59:20   I'm trying to think of solutions too.

00:59:22   And like, you know, there's always the pun to which is like,

00:59:24   we'll just make it a setting and people can decide

00:59:25   which is their most frequently used control

00:59:27   and assign it to, do you want notifications

00:59:29   to be the little ear or notifications

00:59:31   be the whole rest of the thing. But I don't have any great ideas either. I'm just wondering.

00:59:36   I think it's a hard problem. Part of the reason it's crappy is because there's no obvious

00:59:39   good solution. So I'm not sure what they're going to do there.

00:59:43   See, and the funny thing to me is, and I will fully admit that I am the minority here. I

00:59:50   am not trying to say I'm right. I understand everyone else disagrees with me. But I actually,

00:59:54   I feel like I've been trained on where Control Center is for a long time. It's not like I

00:59:58   just figured this out yesterday.

01:00:00   My body--

01:00:01   - People know where it is, it's just hard to reach,

01:00:02   depending on how long your thumb is

01:00:04   and how you hold your phone, and so on and so forth.

01:00:05   - It's a little hard to reach, sure,

01:00:07   but I don't know, I don't feel like it's as egregious

01:00:09   as everyone else seems to think.

01:00:10   And I'm just saying, it's just me,

01:00:13   I'm not trying to say that I'm right,

01:00:14   'cause I can hear all the angry tweets and emails coming.

01:00:16   But it's just for me, I don't think it's that big a deal.

01:00:19   And I'm sure it could be better,

01:00:21   but I don't think it's that bad.

01:00:22   I don't understand why everyone has such a big issue with it.

01:00:26   - Well, you do understand this, 'cause it's hard to reach,

01:00:28   and it's now, there's a potential to get the wrong thing.

01:00:31   Like Marco occasionally gets some notifications

01:00:33   when he doesn't want to.

01:00:34   - Oh, not occasionally. - And that was--

01:00:35   - Every time.

01:00:36   - And it was not a thing that happened with it

01:00:38   in its old location, which is obviously a non-starter

01:00:39   'cause of the lack of home phone.

01:00:41   One thing that no one has mentioned so far is the notch,

01:00:43   so I guess we all don't care about that.

01:00:45   - True, yeah, don't really care.

01:00:46   - Yeah, I don't really care either.

01:00:48   - I mean, it's not ideal, and as I said emphatically

01:00:52   many, many shows ago, Apple does not like the notch,

01:00:55   and it will go away once Apple can get rid of it

01:00:58   as soon as they can get themselves over the branding that they've developed with it.

01:01:01   And by the way, there's been this rash of notch imitator phones where even phones that

01:01:04   don't need to have a notch will add one, sometimes even just like displaying the screen

01:01:08   underneath where the notch is because the Phone OS has no idea that the notch is there,

01:01:12   purely for sort of trade dress, you know, imitation reasons to capitalize on Apple's

01:01:17   marketing.

01:01:18   So I think the notch marketing is a real thing, and that may make Apple keep it for a little

01:01:22   bit longer, but Apple doesn't like the notch either.

01:01:24   But it's great to see that basically everybody, like despite the fact that Apple doesn't

01:01:28   really want the Notch and it is a necessary evil.

01:01:30   It doesn't bother people in daily use.

01:01:32   You forget it's there, you get used to it.

01:01:34   Perhaps the only time you have any interaction

01:01:36   with it at all is when you go for Control Center

01:01:38   and realize there's this divided region at the top

01:01:40   because of the little ears and all that.

01:01:42   But seems to be, for all the talking we all did

01:01:45   about it ahead of time and not knowing what it would be like,

01:01:48   pretty much universally, nobody cares about the Notch.

01:01:50   - Oh, I will say one more complaint I have about it.

01:01:53   As I turned off the screen and realized,

01:01:56   the screen scratches incredibly easily.

01:01:58   And my screen is a mess.

01:02:00   I have so many scratches on the screen.

01:02:01   I've never had a visible scratch on a phone screen before.

01:02:05   And this one scratches like crazy.

01:02:07   - You're putting it in your pocket without a pouch,

01:02:08   that's why.

01:02:09   - No, but every other phone can tolerate it.

01:02:11   So like, from what I've gathered from asking people

01:02:14   and things like that, it seems like they did change

01:02:17   the screen glass material to be more resistant

01:02:20   to shattering by making it a little bit softer.

01:02:24   and therefore it now scratches more easily

01:02:27   but won't shatter as much.

01:02:28   That's wonderful for people who drop their phones

01:02:31   and hope it doesn't shatter.

01:02:32   I'm not one of those people,

01:02:33   and so they definitely made the wrong trade-off for me,

01:02:37   but I can't deny that--

01:02:39   - It's probably the right trade-off for most people,

01:02:41   considering how many shattered phones I see

01:02:44   and how many people do drop their phones

01:02:46   and how little scratches probably bother normal people,

01:02:48   in fact, how little large portions of the population

01:02:51   can even see the scratches.

01:02:52   - Yeah, yeah, so I think this is,

01:02:56   my one major complaint about it,

01:02:58   besides the other one major complaints I had,

01:03:01   is that the screen scratches way too easily.

01:03:03   And the problem is, like, you know, some people say,

01:03:06   well, why don't you just put on a screen protector

01:03:07   or something like that?

01:03:08   The problem is the shape of this--

01:03:09   - Oh, gross.

01:03:10   - Yeah, first of all, gross.

01:03:11   Second of all, the shape of this phone

01:03:13   is, like, because the screen just kind of curves

01:03:17   right down into the edge there,

01:03:18   and the back kind of curves right out of the back,

01:03:21   Like the side profile, everything is a gradual curve.

01:03:26   If you stick something on it, like a screen protector,

01:03:29   or any kind of like decal or anything,

01:03:31   it's not gonna follow that curve.

01:03:34   So you're basically gonna have like an edge

01:03:37   that your fingers will have to rub against

01:03:39   along the edge of the screen,

01:03:41   where like the screen protector just is like sitting

01:03:43   on top of the screen, and then you have this like

01:03:46   rough edge that you have to like move your finger over

01:03:48   all the time that's definitely gonna start peeling up

01:03:50   and getting dust under it at some point.

01:03:52   That is not very good to me.

01:03:56   - That's spoken like someone who was annoyed

01:03:57   by scratches on their phone.

01:03:58   - Yeah.

01:03:59   - You're also annoyed by the tiny little,

01:04:00   again, regular people have those screen protectors

01:04:02   all the time, they love them.

01:04:03   Speaking of screen protectors,

01:04:05   I saw my sister over break and she has a screen protector

01:04:08   on her phone as well.

01:04:10   It's like, I don't know what it's made out of.

01:04:11   Like plastic, it's like one of those rigid screen protectors

01:04:14   plus a giant case plus all sorts of other stuff.

01:04:16   Anyway, she was holding her phone in her mouth

01:04:19   while she was doing something else,

01:04:20   and it started to slip and she bit down

01:04:22   to keep it from slipping,

01:04:23   and she cracked the screen protector with her teeth.

01:04:25   This is the level. - Oh, come on.

01:04:26   - So we're talking about like,

01:04:27   oh, I'm annoyed that it scratches on my phone screen,

01:04:29   and I don't wanna put a protector on

01:04:30   'cause there'd be this thin edge.

01:04:31   Meanwhile, other people are biting their phones

01:04:33   to break them.

01:04:33   And I saw her like a couple days later,

01:04:38   same cracked screen protector.

01:04:40   It's not like she's gonna get a new one.

01:04:41   She can still see the screen, it still works.

01:04:43   That's how people use their phones.

01:04:45   They're not as precious as we are.

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01:06:40   (upbeat music)

01:06:43   All right, let's do some Ask ATP.

01:06:45   - Don't try to skip my thing.

01:06:47   - We're skipping your thing.

01:06:48   - No, it'll take two seconds.

01:06:49   It's because it'll never hit it otherwise.

01:06:50   It's two seconds.

01:06:51   - Everyone look at your timestamps.

01:06:53   Look at the clock right now.

01:06:54   Two seconds, John says.

01:06:56   - You've taken longer in your warning than I will in this.

01:06:58   - Okay, go ahead.

01:07:00   - I used to have to introduce it.

01:07:01   I gotta get my tab open.

01:07:02   Look at this.

01:07:03   - Oh, I see how it is.

01:07:05   Sorry, sorry, Your Majesty.

01:07:08   All right, so, Guy Rambeau,

01:07:10   who is one of the people who has done a really incredible job of figuring out what's going

01:07:16   on with an Apple based on firmware releases and things of that nature.

01:07:20   He's also the host of a new podcast which I've been enjoying called StackTrace.

01:07:23   He had found a few days ago now that there's a way to build WebKit in such a way that you

01:07:31   can get a dark appearance for WebKit, which is effectively for the purposes of this conversation

01:07:36   Safari.

01:07:37   So there is apparently a dark mode and a not so dark mode,

01:07:42   which is the normal mode that you can find and engage

01:07:44   if you know what you're doing.

01:07:45   So with that in mind, does that mean that there's going

01:07:49   to be like a full macOS dark mode rather than just

01:07:52   the ridiculous looking menu bar that nobody should ever use?

01:07:55   - Or an iOS dark mode.

01:07:56   I mean, the reason I found this interesting and worth

01:07:59   notice that Apple did last release or released two ago,

01:08:02   the dark menu bar option on macOS.

01:08:05   - It's been there a long time, hasn't it?

01:08:06   - Yeah, it's been a while.

01:08:07   - Yeah, I mean, I'm always surprised

01:08:09   when I see people use that, just like I'm surprised

01:08:10   when I see people still rocking the graphite appearance

01:08:13   in macOS, but anyway, but they didn't do

01:08:16   like a whole OS dark mode.

01:08:17   They did, oh, you can have a dark menu bar,

01:08:19   you can hide the menu bar, you can have a dark dock,

01:08:21   but it's not like everything goes dark.

01:08:22   And so this is just WebKit, so it could be,

01:08:25   this is just the next stage in the darkening of Apple's OS

01:08:28   is that you can have a dark menu bar and a dark dock,

01:08:30   and also, if you enable this mode,

01:08:32   the quote-unquote native controls inside your WebKit views

01:08:36   also have a dark appearance.

01:08:37   And we'll put a link in the show notes

01:08:38   to two tweets showing the comparison of, like,

01:08:41   here's what it would look like with dark mode off,

01:08:42   and here's what it would look like with dark mode on.

01:08:44   And WebKit, of course, is not just on the Mac.

01:08:46   It's also on iOS.

01:08:48   So I just think it's interesting that--

01:08:50   I was thinking of this in the context of the pro work group

01:08:53   people.

01:08:53   Like, one of the comments that those people might have added

01:08:57   is, hey, I'm working in a dark editing bay all day.

01:09:00   And when I switch out of Final Cut to the Finder or something,

01:09:03   I'm blinded by the giant completely 100% white windows

01:09:07   on my desktop glaring out at me.

01:09:09   And so it'd be great if I had an overall dark mode

01:09:11   just for everything by default.

01:09:13   So I didn't have this unintentional HDR experience

01:09:17   of being blinded by my screen.

01:09:20   Or maybe the same thing for iPads.

01:09:21   If you're reading the web at night on an iPad or something,

01:09:25   I don't know, it falls apart with web pages

01:09:27   'cause they get to control the colors of the background.

01:09:28   But anyway, I thought it was an interesting

01:09:30   potentially a pro angle on everything being dark, and it would be a good match to the

01:09:36   outside of Apple's computers, which as Marco noted on Twitter the other day, also tend

01:09:41   to be going in the dark direction. He's got a dark iMac Pro, and you were commenting that

01:09:46   every single MacBook Pro you've seen has been space gray, despite the fact that it's also

01:09:50   offered in silver. So dark things are cool, and maybe there are more of them coming to

01:09:55   Apple screens near you someday.

01:09:57   That was relatively quick, I will concede.

01:10:00   It was, however, longer than your introduction of the topic.

01:10:02   Thank you, Marco.

01:10:03   All right, Ask ATP.

01:10:04   Jacob Ford writes, "What's the advantage for Apple of ending support for 32-bit apps

01:10:08   on iOS and now macOS?

01:10:11   And what does this allow iOS to do?"

01:10:13   And then a kind of hanger-on from Nelson Conley, "Why can't 32-bit apps run on a 64-bit OS?

01:10:19   I can understand the reverse, 64 not working on 32, but why not for exa—"

01:10:22   Why is it that Apple must phase out support for 32-bit apps on macOS?

01:10:28   John?

01:10:29   - I think, yeah, combine these questions,

01:10:30   'cause they're both kind of asking the same thing.

01:10:32   Like, what's the point?

01:10:34   We've been talking about this as if it's an inevitability

01:10:37   that of course, that 64-bit comes

01:10:39   and 32-bit has to be dropped.

01:10:40   Why, what the hell's the point?

01:10:42   There is actually a point.

01:10:44   Aside from the just like it makes things simpler,

01:10:47   if you don't have to support both 32 and 64 bits,

01:10:49   then you can make a CPU that only supports 64

01:10:52   and you use fewer transistors,

01:10:53   you don't have to deal with 32, so on and so forth.

01:10:55   But even setting all of that aside,

01:10:56   The most important aspect of 64-bit transition is when you have the ability to run 32-bit

01:11:03   and 64-bit apps, all the libraries and frameworks and parts of the OS that the applications

01:11:07   use also have to come in 32-bit and 64-bit variants.

01:11:11   So even if the entire operating system and all Apple's applications and all of your applications

01:11:16   are 64-bit, you launch one 32-bit application and it's got to bring in 32-bit versions of

01:11:21   all the other libraries.

01:11:23   And that's important because in modern OSes and iOS and Mac and everything, they use dynamic

01:11:27   linking.

01:11:29   And if you have 20 apps open that are all linked to the same system framework, you don't

01:11:35   have 20 copies of that in memory.

01:11:36   You have one copy of it in memory.

01:11:39   That's important.

01:11:40   So memory sharing is important.

01:11:42   You'd run out of memory on your phone if that wasn't the case.

01:11:44   As soon as you launch one 32-bit app, now you have two copies of that library in memory,

01:11:48   the 64-bit version and the 32-bit version.

01:11:50   So the only way you can ever get the big win of not having to have both versions of a whole

01:11:56   bunch of libraries in memory because you've got some 64-bit and 32-bit applications, like

01:12:00   because one 32-bit application will ruin it and pull in all of its libraries, is to expunge

01:12:04   32-bit from the system to say, "We can't even run 32-bit.

01:12:08   Our CPU can't run it, so our CPU can be smaller and take less power and have fewer transistors

01:12:13   and be simpler," and so on and so forth.

01:12:15   And since we can't run it, we will never have both 64 and 32-bit copies of libraries and

01:12:20   memory. So you save RAM, you save battery power, you make it simple. That's why it's

01:12:24   kind of accepted as an inevitability that, yes, once you switch to 64-bit, eventually

01:12:29   you should get rid of 32-bit. The timing we can all debate about, but the wins are real

01:12:33   and technical, and that's why Apple's doing this.

01:12:36   All right, Juho Lanonen—must be finished. Anyway, he writes—oh, God, that's right.

01:12:43   Can we skip this, please?

01:12:44   You were so—it's such a rush to get to Ask ATP, and look what's sitting there waiting

01:12:48   for you.

01:12:49   Oh, God, this sucks.

01:12:50   You can move to the last question if you want.

01:12:52   No, it's OK.

01:12:52   The next question is a Wrangler question, so forget it.

01:12:55   We're in that section of Ask ATP now.

01:12:57   All right.

01:12:58   So what is Jon's opinion on Destiny 2,

01:13:01   and are you still playing it?

01:13:02   There's been a lot of criticism of the downloadable content

01:13:05   and microtransactions policies of the game.

01:13:07   Do you think those are hurting the underlying

01:13:08   game significantly?

01:13:09   And Casey asked a follow-on question.

01:13:11   Can you please answer this question in English?

01:13:14   Seems unlikely.

01:13:16   Oh, my god.

01:13:17   All right.

01:13:17   Let's go start with easy stuff.

01:13:19   Yes, I am still playing Destiny 2.

01:13:22   This question says there's been a lot of criticism of the DLC and microtransactions, but honestly,

01:13:27   the things that are the most wrong with Destiny 2 have nothing to do with microtransactions.

01:13:32   DLC is vague, you're just saying you don't like the expansions.

01:13:35   The expansions haven't been great, but whatever.

01:13:38   The core mechanics of the game are the things that have problems.

01:13:42   And I think I said this in one of the slacks recently.

01:13:45   It's like, there's the game Destiny 2, and there's the second game that you get with

01:13:49   Destiny 2, or not second game, the second entertainment product that you get with Destiny

01:13:54   2, which is participation in and observation of the development process of Destiny.

01:13:59   This happened with Destiny 1, too, one as well, where it was almost like for three years,

01:14:06   you got to play a game, but you also got to see the development of the game in real time

01:14:11   with constant feedback and animosity between the people who play the game and the people

01:14:14   who make the game and various ups and downs.

01:14:18   And that's my memories of Destiny 1, my good memories of Destiny 1 are very much tied up

01:14:21   in that interaction between the player base and the ongoing development of the game.

01:14:27   It's not like they release the game and you just play it for three years.

01:14:29   Like the game changed a lot in those three years and it changed in response to and sometimes

01:14:34   in opposition to the wishes of the player base.

01:14:37   That continues to happen with Destiny 2.

01:14:39   It's more frustrating because we feel like, "Didn't you learn anything for three years

01:14:41   of Destiny 1?

01:14:42   Don't you kind of know what people want?"

01:14:43   They made some bad guesses in the beginning of Destiny 2 and they're backpedaling on a

01:14:46   lot of them and that can be frustrating, but I am, I have to admit, I am kind of enjoying

01:14:50   seeing the game evolve just like Destiny 1 did, even though it's kind of dumb that they

01:14:55   seem to have forgotten everything and made some bad bets in Destiny 2.

01:14:58   It's also bad that the player base seems to have dropped off a lot because people aren't

01:15:02   willing to put up with this crap because they're kind of frustrated, like, again, didn't you

01:15:05   learn anything from Destiny 1?

01:15:06   So I am still playing it.

01:15:07   I do have hope that it will get better.

01:15:09   It has gotten better from launch till now, and I still like it, and I still go back to

01:15:14   it when I'm not playing some other game.

01:15:18   Mike asks, in order for me to get back at Jon, "I know you guys keep making fun of

01:15:21   the potential Wrangler acquisition, but in all seriousness, I'm interested in hearing

01:15:24   further discussion on this.

01:15:25   I own two motorcycles, and after a few friends have had serious life-threatening accidents,

01:15:28   I'm about to sell them both and throw in the towel on bikes, period.

01:15:32   One of the joys of motorcycling is the feeling you get when you're outside, which has me

01:15:37   me thinking if I could sell the bikes and buy a Wrangler. So the question is if you

01:15:41   got a Wrangler, what would you be looking for? Conversely, if not a Wrangler and you

01:15:44   had 10 to 15 to spend on a used vehicle as a weekend toy, maybe some kind of convertible,

01:15:48   what would you look for? Hard top, soft top, dependability and ease of maintenance would

01:15:51   be key for me. So I will start. If I was going to get a Wrangler, I would have to do the

01:15:56   terrible thing of getting a Wrangler Unlimited, which is to say a four-door Wrangler, which

01:15:59   is blasphemous. It is a terrible decision, but it's what I would have to do. I would

01:16:04   get a soft top because hard tops are dumb and I don't want to hear any arguments to

01:16:09   the contrary.

01:16:11   And I would probably get a Sahara.

01:16:14   I would try to get a Rubicon, but they are really frickin' expensive.

01:16:17   That's basically how off-road capable and/nice they are.

01:16:22   There are some off-road facilities, roads, again, it's not really road, I suppose trails,

01:16:28   that's what I'm looking for, trails near-ish to me.

01:16:30   And I like to think that if I got a Wrangler, I would go off-roading from time to time,

01:16:35   and thus having something more than like the base model would be good.

01:16:39   But I would basically get as much soft top, six-speed Wranglers I could afford.

01:16:44   If I wasn't going to get a Wrangler and I was going to get some other kind of used cars,

01:16:48   a weekend toy, I think in the $10,000 to $15,000 range, I would either get a Mustang convertible

01:16:56   and I would never bring it to Cars and Coffee lest I murder somebody.

01:16:59   I would either get a Mustang convertible, a V8 with a stick, or I've always really

01:17:05   loved S2000s, which would make Jon very happy, what with them being Hondas.

01:17:09   However, they are quite old now and still worth a fair bit of money.

01:17:13   So I don't know if I would want something quite that old, but they've always appealed

01:17:18   to me.

01:17:19   You won't fit in one.

01:17:20   You're too big.

01:17:21   No, I've driven one.

01:17:22   I don't know if I drove it.

01:17:23   Did I drive it?

01:17:24   I thought I drove it.

01:17:25   Your hair is too big.

01:17:26   My hair is too big.

01:17:27   Have you sat in one lately?

01:17:28   They're really small.

01:17:29   ago but a little more than that but at the time I fit so anyway Marco you

01:17:34   haven't talked for a while so tell me what would you do if you were if you

01:17:37   were forced to buy a Wrangler and yes I know you're gonna say not buy Wrangler

01:17:40   but let's try to play by the rules what would you do if you were gonna buy

01:17:43   Wrangler and or what would you do if you had to get a $15,000 used car for fun I

01:17:48   have never looked at or priced Wranglers so I don't even know what my options are

01:17:54   except to say that I know I would I too would opt for the four-door version and

01:17:59   and I would want the, I know there's an option

01:18:02   to get a hard top and also have the ability

01:18:04   to swap it out for a soft top.

01:18:07   I would get that option,

01:18:08   because I live somewhere with winter.

01:18:09   - That's true, except the hard top is exceedingly heavy,

01:18:13   even on a two-door Wrangler, and very unwieldy,

01:18:15   because if you think about it,

01:18:16   all the weight is in the back,

01:18:17   because that's where the glass is.

01:18:19   So it is a royal pain in the hindquarters to do that swap,

01:18:23   and that's why I would advise,

01:18:26   even if you live somewhere with winter,

01:18:28   I would still advise going soft top.

01:18:29   - Alright, well, so what I would actually do though,

01:18:32   is take the option presented in the question

01:18:34   to not get a Wrangler, and so the question was,

01:18:37   if you can get something for like,

01:18:39   basically $15,000 or under, used,

01:18:42   that would be fun on the weekends,

01:18:43   that might also give you that same kind of fun,

01:18:46   or a similar kind of fun as like,

01:18:48   having a convertible or something like that.

01:18:51   And so for that criteria, I haven't actually looked

01:18:54   that deeply into what's available,

01:18:55   but I did a quick search before the show.

01:18:57   So what I would go for, I would look at basically

01:19:00   like the small, relatively light, relatively sporty

01:19:04   convertibles that are popular enough to find used

01:19:08   in that price range.

01:19:09   So that would be things like the, obviously,

01:19:13   the Mazda Miata I think would be very high on the list.

01:19:16   The Miata is not incredibly fast, but is pretty damn fun.

01:19:20   And they're popular and they're plentiful,

01:19:22   so they're easy to find.

01:19:23   And I did a quick search and there are plenty of them

01:19:26   in this price range that look fairly reasonable.

01:19:29   I would also consider the Mini Cooper,

01:19:32   not any of the crazy big like four-door ones or anything.

01:19:35   The only downside with Minis is that

01:19:36   because they are BMWs, they are very expensive to maintain

01:19:39   once they're out of warranty.

01:19:41   So that's not really. - Really?

01:19:43   (laughing)

01:19:44   - But otherwise, getting even worse

01:19:46   than BMW for maintenance, we can go to a used Cayman.

01:19:51   The only problem is the Cayman's an expensive car,

01:19:53   so getting one used has to be pretty old.

01:19:56   Like I found one that's a 2008,

01:20:00   it was like 14, 14.5 or something.

01:20:03   So it was like just under the price ceiling

01:20:05   and it's 10 years old and it's a Porsche.

01:20:07   So that's not gonna be fun to maintain.

01:20:10   - Nope, I actually just drove a Friends Cayman

01:20:12   a week or two ago.

01:20:13   Very nice car, very, very nice car.

01:20:16   Really, his was a 2015, I believe it's Cayman S.

01:20:19   And it is a extremely nice car,

01:20:21   handles exceptionally well, go figure.

01:20:24   - Yeah, you could also do the Boxster,

01:20:25   which is similar in many ways.

01:20:27   It's also gonna be very expensive

01:20:30   for a very old one, basically.

01:20:32   But it is possible to do.

01:20:35   And then finally, I think one option

01:20:38   I would very seriously consider is a BMW 1 Series.

01:20:42   And for this price, first of all, they're hard to find

01:20:44   'cause they don't sell that many 1 Serieses

01:20:46   or didn't sell that many of them.

01:20:48   The 2 Series is too new, you won't find any of them

01:20:50   for 15,000, but the 1 Series was pretty nice, actually.

01:20:54   and even like the 128 or the 135 also is another option,

01:20:58   but even the base model, the 128,

01:21:00   is available and convertible, not that heavy,

01:21:03   and it's nice and small, and they're pretty fun to drive.

01:21:07   They're not, like, you know, the 128's not gonna be

01:21:08   as fast as the higher ones, but it's still pretty fun,

01:21:11   and so, and that can be had in this price range, so,

01:21:15   and what I like about the 128 and the 1 Series

01:21:17   and 2 Series in general, you know, I'm a sedan person.

01:21:20   I like sitting at sedan height,

01:21:22   And with these, you are pretty much sitting at stand height.

01:21:24   With all the other cars that I've mentioned so far,

01:21:26   you're basically sitting on the road.

01:21:28   Like you're sitting very low,

01:21:29   your perspective is very low on the road,

01:21:31   you're not quite as easy for other vehicles to see you

01:21:35   if they're higher up than you and they might merge into you.

01:21:37   So I would actually very seriously consider,

01:21:39   for this role, a 1 Series.

01:21:41   - John.

01:21:43   - I don't have to answer the Wrangler thing, do I?

01:21:45   I would never buy one of those.

01:21:46   - You definitely have to answer the Wrangler thing.

01:21:48   - Yep, you absolutely do.

01:21:49   - I would get a two-door soft top

01:21:50   and I would treat it like a dune buggy

01:21:52   I would only use it on the beach.

01:21:54   - I'm okay with that answer actually.

01:21:56   - Never want to have it on a road.

01:21:57   - And you would crack a smile.

01:21:59   - Yeah, no, it'd be fun.

01:22:00   Like who doesn't like a dune buggy?

01:22:01   I just don't want to drive it around all the time

01:22:03   like on roads, stupid car.

01:22:06   Fun dune buggy maybe though.

01:22:08   For a 1015K, Miata, the only other thing

01:22:11   I might consider that has been mentioned

01:22:14   is the, what the hell, the FRS,

01:22:21   BRZ Toyota Baru, it's ft86 now, I believe but yes, we're all saying the same thing

01:22:26   I know that's not a convertible right, but it's like it's a cheap fun sporty car

01:22:30   It's cheap because doesn't have a lot of power, but it's like it's kind of a throwback type of thing

01:22:34   And that's like I don't want a mini Cooper. I don't even want the stupid Fiat Miata clone

01:22:40   There's not many convertibles that I would like besides the Miata

01:22:43   Obviously, I would take a Cayman if I could find one in the right price range, but you may pay 14k for that Cayman

01:22:49   but it's not going to be in great shape.

01:22:51   And as soon as something breaks, you're going to put another 5K into it before you

01:22:53   can sneeze, because doing anything to it requires a ridiculous amount of work.

01:22:58   So that would be kind of, you know, squeezing in.

01:23:01   So yeah, that's probably what I would do.

01:23:02   Although, I have never actually owned a convertible, so I don't know how much I would really

01:23:05   like them.

01:23:06   I think I would treat it a lot like the Dune Buggy, where it's just a fun thing to drive

01:23:11   around in, but if I had to go to a store or didn't live somewhere where it was sunny

01:23:15   all the time, I would just say, "Can I get a car with a roof?"

01:23:18   - You know, convertibles, by definition, have roofs.

01:23:20   That's the convertible part.

01:23:22   - You know what I mean.

01:23:23   That's what gets into like the,

01:23:25   they're like an SLK with the automated hard top.

01:23:28   Like I want, we talked about this in the window thing,

01:23:31   if you keep your windows open and closed.

01:23:32   In general, I mostly keep them closed.

01:23:34   I don't want the wind blowing on me

01:23:35   unless I'm doing that thing where it's like

01:23:37   I just wanna drive around in an open air thing.

01:23:39   Like convertibles and things without roofs

01:23:41   should go in summer places and beach places,

01:23:44   and that's where they belong,

01:23:45   and every place else I just want an actual car.

01:23:48   Thanks to our sponsors this week, Linode, Eero, and RXBAR, and we'll see you next week.

01:23:55   Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin

01:24:00   'Cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental

01:24:05   John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

01:24:11   'Cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental

01:24:16   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

01:24:21   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

01:24:30   So that's K-C-L-I-S-S-M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M-N-T-M-A-R-C-O-R-M-N-T-M-A-R-C-O-R-M-N-T-M-A-R-C-O-R-M-N-T-M-A-R-M-N-T-M-A-R-M-N-T-M-A-R-M-N-T-M-A-R-M-N-T-M-A-R-M-N-T-M-A-R-M-N-T-M-A-R-M-N-T-M-A-R-M-N-T-M-A

01:24:30   So that's Casey List, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M, N-T-M-A-R-C-O-R-M-N-S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A.

01:24:42   It's accidental.

01:24:45   They didn't mean to.

01:24:48   Accidental.

01:24:50   Tech podcast.

01:24:52   So long.

01:24:55   So, I have a—continuing the neutral theme—

01:24:59   I have a question for you gentlemen.

01:25:02   I was leaving Declan's preschool yesterday,

01:25:06   and the person in front of me came to a rolling stop

01:25:11   and made a turn without his or her signal.

01:25:15   So there's a stop sign where you're supposed to come

01:25:17   to a complete stop and wait like three seconds

01:25:19   or something like that.

01:25:20   And this individual neither stopped nor used a turn signal.

01:25:25   And I got wondering, which one of those things is worse?

01:25:29   Because on paper, I would say a rolling stop is worse because it's less safe.

01:25:34   But most people only do a rolling stop when you can see everyone around you and you know that it's safe.

01:25:42   But not using your signal, I feel like everyone around me does that, and it's really friggin' annoying.

01:25:47   So I will probably say not using your signal is worse.

01:25:51   But Marco, what do you think? Rolling stop or not using your signal? What's more offensive?

01:25:56   - Well, hmm, it really depends a lot on the context.

01:26:01   - Fair.

01:26:02   - Oh, and also, a rolling stop is one of two

01:26:05   moving violations I've ever gotten.

01:26:07   (laughing)

01:26:09   It was in college, we all make mistakes.

01:26:11   I don't, I mean, both of them are unsafe.

01:26:15   Both of them can be very dangerous and can cause accidents

01:26:19   or hitting pedestrians or something.

01:26:22   So if you're forcing me to rank them,

01:26:25   I mean, failing to signal for like a right turn

01:26:29   versus a lane change, like are we distinguishing here?

01:26:33   Like signaling for any reason

01:26:35   or just signaling for a turn?

01:26:37   - The context in this particular case

01:26:40   was a person coming to a T in the road

01:26:43   and they made a 90 degree right turn

01:26:45   without a signal from a rolling stop.

01:26:47   But I mean, I think to me,

01:26:50   not using your signal is generally speaking,

01:26:52   I find that to be deeply unsafe, and I think that that's considerably worse.

01:26:58   Was it a capital T or a lowercase t?

01:27:01   It was a capital T.

01:27:03   Okay, and they were turning right?

01:27:05   That's correct.

01:27:06   Okay, so it affected nobody.

01:27:08   Yeah, that's fair.

01:27:10   It bothered me behind them, but yes, you're right.

01:27:12   And so in this case, a right turn at a T without a signal is not very harmful to anybody except

01:27:20   your mood. And therefore, the rolling stop would be the more offensive move.

01:27:28   All right, Jon.

01:27:30   So without specific context, I know you have a specific context to this thing, but the

01:27:33   question is, in general, what's worse? And I have to say, in general, I think the lack

01:27:38   of signal is worse, mostly because if you—rolling stops can be situational. We all know about

01:27:45   political stop signs, where there's a stop sign somewhere in your neighborhood where

01:27:48   It makes no sense that there's a stop sign there, because it's barely even an intersection,

01:27:53   and the visibility is 360 degrees from miles in every direction, and there's nobody ever

01:27:58   there, and it's just ridiculous that there's a stop sign there, but somehow someone got

01:28:01   a stop sign put up there.

01:28:03   And everybody rolls through it, right?

01:28:05   Because there's just no reason to ever stop.

01:28:09   But I think people do rolling stops situationally.

01:28:12   If it's a busy intersection, and it's a four-way stop, everyone's stopping 100%, because you're

01:28:16   get into an accident if you don't. Without trying very hard, people situationally stop.

01:28:23   Now maybe it's a better habit to just stop fully every single time, but I don't know

01:28:27   if there are any real experienced adult drivers who literally stop 100% every single time

01:28:33   at every stop light. There are degrees of rolling stops. Obviously you have to slow

01:28:36   down to almost zero miles an hour, but if your wheel never comes to a complete and total

01:28:40   stop, it's easy in stick shift cars. Look, you have to shift back in first. If I have

01:28:46   to shift back into first, I've stopped enough.

01:28:48   And remember, my cars have no power.

01:28:50   My cars have no power, so I don't even

01:28:51   have the option of starting in second gear

01:28:53   like cars with actual power, right?

01:28:54   So in general, it is better.

01:28:58   The turn signal one, I think, is worse

01:28:59   because if you, my experience is people

01:29:02   who don't signal, it spreads.

01:29:05   Like, first it's like, oh, I don't signal here

01:29:06   'cause there's no cars around.

01:29:07   No one needs to know that I'm signaling.

01:29:08   But that habit sticks, and they just stop

01:29:11   signaling everywhere.

01:29:12   It's not like rolling stops where it's situational,

01:29:13   and they just start doing it again when they need to,

01:29:16   they just become non-signallers.

01:29:17   We've all seen non-signallers.

01:29:19   It doesn't matter what they're doing,

01:29:19   turning left, turning right, changing lanes,

01:29:21   doesn't matter, the signals don't even exist.

01:29:23   And so that's why I think lack of signals is worse,

01:29:27   because it seems to spread,

01:29:29   and because people don't do it situationally.

01:29:30   Now if you give me any specific situation,

01:29:32   it could be that in that situation,

01:29:35   I would rather have you stop fully than do a signal,

01:29:37   because a lot of times people think everything is clear.

01:29:39   Well, like even Margaret said,

01:29:40   oh, capital T intersection, I'm making a right turn,

01:29:43   No one's around, I don't know how to run anybody.

01:29:44   The reason they have you do a full stop

01:29:46   at a capital T intersection when there's no cars for miles

01:29:48   is because if there's a crosswalk,

01:29:49   you're supposed to stop to check the crosswalk

01:29:51   for some kid who's about to run out.

01:29:52   So when you do a rolling stop there,

01:29:54   if you're rolling too much,

01:29:55   you're running over a kid who you didn't see

01:29:56   because they weren't on the road.

01:29:57   And there's no cars anyway,

01:29:58   I can just make a right turn here

01:29:59   and then you just run a kid over.

01:30:01   That's why you're supposed to stop at stop signs

01:30:03   even when it seems there's nobody anywhere.

01:30:05   So it really is situational when rolling stop is good.

01:30:09   But I think, like I said, in general,

01:30:11   the lack of turn signal seems viral,

01:30:13   whereas rolling stops seems situational.

01:30:16   - Well, and I feel like that actually plays

01:30:17   into the ranking here.

01:30:20   Experienced drivers know that you can't trust

01:30:24   somebody's lack of turn signaling

01:30:26   to mean they're not going to turn

01:30:28   because turn signals are so unreliable as a signal.

01:30:33   People could signal left and turn right.

01:30:36   People could not signal and turn all over the place

01:30:37   or you're stopping in the middle of the road.

01:30:39   So like this, we know as seasoned drivers,

01:30:43   we know that turn signals are not reliable

01:30:46   as a source of prediction.

01:30:48   Whereas I think most of us assume

01:30:51   that if there's a stop sign,

01:30:53   almost everyone is going to stop,

01:30:54   or these come very, very close to stopping.

01:30:56   So if it's, and you know, there's degrees of rolling stops.

01:30:59   You know, if you're really, you know,

01:31:01   if you're not going into first gear territory,

01:31:04   that's a fine line between--

01:31:07   - That's not a rolling stop,

01:31:07   that's just blowing a stop sign.

01:31:08   - Blowing it, yeah.

01:31:09   - I like the distinction of like,

01:31:10   a rolling stop is you didn't come to 100% stop,

01:31:12   but the cop might not even have given you a ticket,

01:31:15   because yeah, you did, but like, blowing a stop sign

01:31:17   is like, oh, you just pretend the stop sign's not there.

01:31:19   That's different than what we're talking about.

01:31:21   - Also, like, in the situation at the T,

01:31:23   like if you come up to the capital T, you are turning.

01:31:26   So whether you're signaling or not,

01:31:28   everyone knows you're gonna make a turn.

01:31:29   And if you happen to be turning right,

01:31:31   that's why I said like, there's really no harm done.

01:31:34   You are right, if you hit somebody and they crawl through,

01:31:36   that's a pretty big problem,

01:31:36   but I wasn't aware that was one of the factors here.

01:31:41   - Well, it's the thing people think is like,

01:31:44   there are no cars anywhere around,

01:31:45   and no one is in the road,

01:31:46   therefore it's safe for me to roll through this thing

01:31:48   and make it right,

01:31:49   and the place that you're not looking is the sidewalk.

01:31:50   - Oh yeah, and I agree that the rolling stop is the more,

01:31:54   that's what I'm saying,

01:31:55   the rolling stop is the more dangerous thing,

01:31:56   first of all because of situations like that,

01:31:58   second of all because people don't,

01:32:02   I think more people will assume

01:32:04   that you're gonna stop at the stop sign,

01:32:06   then we'll assume that you're not gonna turn

01:32:08   if you happen to not be signaling right now.

01:32:10   - Yeah.

01:32:11   - I think signaling, I don't wanna throw more like,

01:32:13   you know, this state is better than that state,

01:32:15   but I really do find it changes a lot based on geography.

01:32:19   Because I think, for the most part,

01:32:20   for all of the bad Massachusetts driver

01:32:23   or Boston driver things, and there are bad Boston drivers,

01:32:26   signaling is pretty consistent around here,

01:32:27   whereas other states that I've driven in,

01:32:29   signaling seems almost nonexistent,

01:32:31   and I'm shocked by it every time.

01:32:33   - Yeah, Virginia's not great about this,

01:32:34   and Virginia is particularly bad about running red lights,

01:32:37   which is so dangerous.

01:32:39   I don't understand what the issue is here.

01:32:42   And I've lived in Virginia basically since college,

01:32:45   you know, with a short stint back in Connecticut,

01:32:48   but for 18 years I've been here.

01:32:50   And I don't understand how and why so many people

01:32:55   run so many red lights so regularly.

01:32:58   It drives me bananas.

01:33:01   I don't get it.

01:33:02   Do you guys have the Pittsburgh left at lights?

01:33:05   - The what?

01:33:05   - So you're at a road, you're at a stoplight.

01:33:09   The opposing traffic that's going the opposite direction

01:33:11   as you, that's currently stopped,

01:33:14   the first car in that line wishes to make a left turn.

01:33:17   The light turns green for both of you.

01:33:21   That first car jumps the gun and turns left

01:33:24   right in front of you.

01:33:24   - Oh no, oh no.

01:33:26   - That's not the Pittsburgh left,

01:33:27   that's like every state in the Northeast left.

01:33:29   - Right, and so basically like if you,

01:33:31   as the person going straight, floor it,

01:33:34   when the light turns green, you will hit them.

01:33:36   They just kinda do it 'cause they figure like,

01:33:38   you're probably not gonna hit me,

01:33:39   so I'm just gonna gun it and go for it.

01:33:41   So this was a thing that I learned in Pittsburgh

01:33:44   that everyone there called the Pittsburgh left,

01:33:45   but yeah, Jon, you're right,

01:33:46   everyone in New York does it too.

01:33:48   But only in certain suburbs,

01:33:50   it is kind of like micro-regional around here.

01:33:53   I hate that, like that is my pet peeve.

01:33:55   Somebody does a Pittsburgh left in front of me,

01:33:57   I will hold down the horn and almost hit them

01:34:00   because I'm trying to make a point

01:34:01   that's not okay.

01:34:02   That drives me nuts.

01:34:04   And sometimes I will, if I know that I can beat them,

01:34:09   I will just floor it and just cut them off

01:34:12   so they can't make the left.

01:34:13   - Wait, you're gonna get into an accident.

01:34:14   That's not defensive driving.

01:34:15   That's the opposite of defensive driving.

01:34:17   - That is absolutely accurate.

01:34:19   However, what on the road can you not beat?

01:34:22   I mean, there are very few cars,

01:34:24   especially that you would see in a regular occurrence.

01:34:26   - The reason people do it is not based,

01:34:28   it's based on the tension.

01:34:29   If he's not paying attention, he's looking at his phone, right?

01:34:32   The light has been green for a while.

01:34:34   The person makes a left, he's like, "That guy's apparently not going."

01:34:36   And here's the great thing.

01:34:37   Massachusetts has this great thing called delayed green, where there are intersections,

01:34:41   still probably some of them around, where the light turns green for you, but you have

01:34:46   no idea that the oncoming traffic in the opposite direction does not yet have a green light,

01:34:50   that you get a green light for a full five or six seconds before they do.

01:34:53   It's for you to make a left turn.

01:34:55   There is no indication of the intersection.

01:34:57   You don't get an arrow, there's no signs, you just have to know, oh everyone knows that

01:35:01   this intersection is delayed green.

01:35:03   And so that's to drain the left, there's no left turn lane, it's to drain the left turners

01:35:06   before they come.

01:35:08   So if you don't know that and you're afraid to make a Pittsburgh left, now you're going

01:35:11   to have a bunch of angry people honking at you saying, "What are you waiting for?

01:35:13   Turn left!"

01:35:14   Because otherwise you'd be holding up the whole, the single line of traffic.

01:35:18   Delayed green is fun.

01:35:18   [door closes]

01:35:20   [BLANK_AUDIO]