269: Cooled by Jellyfish


00:00:00   You're just starting in without Casey huh?

00:00:02   OK he's rebooting.

00:00:04   He said momentarily, I mean that was a few minutes ago.

00:00:07   You know how long it takes to reboot.

00:00:08   Takes a while.

00:00:09   Not that long.

00:00:11   Not on my shiny new Mac Pro.

00:00:12   Mmhmm.

00:00:13   Hi. Hello. Sorry.

00:00:15   Rebooting your slow computer?

00:00:17   Why are you going to be like that?

00:00:19   It's faster than John's.

00:00:20   That's probably true.

00:00:21   I don't have to reboot.

00:00:22   I'm already running.

00:00:23   No time I rebooted for system updates.

00:00:25   I didn't have to I just had this sneaking suspicion that I needed to the camp

00:00:30   I have empathy for the machine John you've got that reboot feeling

00:00:34   Mm-hmm. Oh my god

00:00:36   That's a what is it?

00:00:38   It was top gun wasn't it that's not where that song is from but yes that movie did feature that song

00:00:43   Take me home or lose me forever John, Syracuse. Oh

00:00:46   You know, uh, fun fact days of thunder was the better movie between the two of them because of the same movie

00:00:55   I'm pretty sure they're not days of Thunder was the better one. Why why do you think that because well a everyone is going to tell me

00:01:02   I'm wrong and they're probably right, but I don't care because planes are not as fun as cars what I

00:01:07   Was waiting for a reason like I figured you know you had some no no reasonable foundation for your opinion, but no no

00:01:15   That's not let's talk about vinyl after this high-definition vinyl. Yeah, I love I love that story so much like they're like

00:01:21   if only there were some other, you know, round music medium that was longer than a vinyl

00:01:27   record and could allow for more precise audio.

00:01:29   Right, right, right.

00:01:30   Yeah, there might be.

00:01:31   So I read it, I thought it was going to be like high-definition vinyl, but instead it

00:01:36   seemed like it was just a way to more precisely make vinyl, but everything else about it was

00:01:41   the same, like it wasn't higher definition.

00:01:43   It was like, if we could really carefully carve grooves in vinyl, like more carefully

00:01:49   than usual.

00:01:50   I was like, "All right, I guess. I mean, sure, but it's not... Oh, God. I don't understand."

00:01:56   I thought it was going to be a higher density or it was going to do... I was kind of imagining

00:02:02   that it would make little pits for ones and zeros. It would be vinyl, but CDs on vinyl,

00:02:06   you know what I mean? There's lots of things you could do to make actual high-definition vinyl,

00:02:11   but instead they're just more carefully carving grooves in vinyl.

00:02:14   Yeah, I've been sent that a couple times already. I guess things like, as somebody who has

00:02:20   now seen all the sides of this,

00:02:22   the appeal of vinyl has nothing to do with

00:02:25   its sound quality or fidelity or dynamic range

00:02:29   or any of the things they're proposing to increase.

00:02:33   If you want those things, you shouldn't be using vinyl at all.

00:02:38   You should be using digital sources.

00:02:41   This is just crazy to me.

00:02:44   - Anyway, we should start with follow-up.

00:02:45   iOS 11.3 has a new battery throttling notification, which we were made aware of sometime in the

00:02:52   last week.

00:02:53   Stephen Devine was the first that I noticed to send us an image.

00:02:56   It reads as follows, "This iPhone has experienced an unexpected shutdown because the battery

00:03:01   was unable to deliver the necessary peak power.

00:03:04   Performance management has been applied to help prevent this from happening again."

00:03:07   Like a passive voice, "Performance management has been applied."

00:03:10   Who applied it?

00:03:11   What happened now?

00:03:12   The iPhone experienced an unexpected shutdown.

00:03:14   and it experienced it.

00:03:15   - Well, that is kind of true.

00:03:17   The phone did, at least it didn't blame you.

00:03:19   There is actually no actor in that situation.

00:03:21   The phone did experience something.

00:03:22   - You shut down your iPhone because of a problem.

00:03:25   (laughing)

00:03:26   No, I'm very happy that they are notifying the user

00:03:31   when battery throttling happens.

00:03:33   Big picture wise, that's good.

00:03:36   They should have been doing this all along

00:03:38   and that would have made the problem a lot less severe.

00:03:40   I don't think the wording they've chosen here

00:03:43   is particularly helpful or even honest,

00:03:46   performance management has been applied.

00:03:51   I don't think a lot of people are going to correctly know

00:03:53   that that means your phone will now be slowed down.

00:03:56   Like that's a pretty big difference

00:03:58   than performance management has been applied.

00:04:02   That is a dark pattern euphemism that is intentionally

00:04:06   written to mask the truth, to confuse and kinda hide

00:04:12   what's actually going on in this huge paragraph that they know most people are not going to

00:04:17   read and if they do read it they're not really going to understand what it's really doing.

00:04:21   I wish they would have been a little more clear in the language but at least they're

00:04:24   undifying people. I just wish they were undefined in a more honest way.

00:04:29   >> And they don't offer any remedies. Like the dialogue should say, "Okay, like, here's

00:04:33   what happened and what? Is there anything I can do about it?" Actually, in this case

00:04:36   there is. What you can do about it is get a new battery for your phone, right?

00:04:39   >> Right, exactly.

00:04:40   something like it's not even as far as I can tell it's not even a place like oh

00:04:43   you know tap here for more information like if a user is interested enough in

00:04:47   this very confusing vague like you could mean a lot of different things and you

00:04:51   say I want to know more because it sounds like something bad might have

00:04:54   happened to my phone presumably they knew something bad happened to the phone

00:04:56   because they were using it two seconds ago and then the screen went black and

00:04:59   had to wait for it to reboot right so if that happened to me and then my phone

00:05:03   came back and it said this I would be like well what what can I do about that

00:05:07   And Apple has answers, they're easy answers.

00:05:09   Hey, go get a new battery.

00:05:11   But they don't offer that in this dialogue anyway.

00:05:14   - Yeah, they could be a little more,

00:05:16   they could say like, your battery can no longer

00:05:19   run the phone at full speed.

00:05:21   Like that is more direct.

00:05:23   That is telling them like, your phone won't be slow,

00:05:26   it's the battery's fault, it's something that you can

00:05:28   therefore have some control over.

00:05:30   You need to replace the battery.

00:05:32   Using language that is more honest and accountable,

00:05:37   I think would do a lot of good here.

00:05:39   The whole point of this notification

00:05:42   is to fix the problem they had before,

00:05:44   which is they were slowing down people's phones

00:05:47   without telling them.

00:05:48   This kind of sort of fixes that,

00:05:51   but if the people don't really know what's going on,

00:05:54   and they later find out, oh, my phone has been slowed down

00:05:58   by Apple because of this thing,

00:06:00   I don't think they're gonna feel better, necessarily,

00:06:03   than they would if they weren't told at all,

00:06:05   because if this is all they saw,

00:06:07   and they didn't really understand what was going on,

00:06:09   then they effectively weren't told at all.

00:06:10   So it doesn't really solve the problem.

00:06:13   - I'm glad that they have a notification.

00:06:14   I think you nailed it, Marco, that, you know,

00:06:17   it may not be perfect, there's certainly, you know,

00:06:19   issues that we can and just have taken with it,

00:06:21   but I do think that telling the user

00:06:22   what the hell is going on is a good first step,

00:06:25   and I welcome this improvement.

00:06:26   - Yeah, but you need to subtract some of the California

00:06:29   from this dialogue and apply a little bit

00:06:30   of East Coast to it.

00:06:31   - Good friggin' luck, my friend.

00:06:34   I agree with you, but good luck.

00:06:36   I mean, how can you expect people who don't live in the real world to communicate with

00:06:40   people who live in the real world?

00:06:42   Worded by Apple in California.

00:06:45   Oh, well done.

00:06:48   All right, moving on.

00:06:51   Mac OS, this is actually breaking news, and I mean that genuinely.

00:06:54   This is just breaking in the last, like, hour or two.

00:06:57   So we're recording this in the evening of April 11th on Wednesday night, and apparently

00:07:02   A few people are reporting all at the same moment that Mac OS 10.13.4 is now going to

00:07:10   warn users about 32-bit apps.

00:07:12   This is a quote from Jason Snell, "Apple's long transition away from 32-bit software

00:07:17   takes another step beginning April 12.

00:07:19   When the clock strikes switching hour local time, Macs running Mac OS 10.13.4 will display

00:07:24   a warning the first time any non-Apple app that isn't 64-bit compliant is opened."

00:07:30   interesting.

00:07:31   - I mean this isn't that surprising.

00:07:34   They're clearly, you know, they have not been that secretive

00:07:38   that 32-bit support is on its way out.

00:07:40   This is, it's just like what they did on iOS.

00:07:42   When iOS 11, I believe, was the one that dropped, right?

00:07:46   - I think so.

00:07:47   - Yeah, and so like for iOS 10, like 10.4, whatever,

00:07:50   whatever the last version of 10 was,

00:07:52   they started showing this alert then,

00:07:53   and you know, over iOS apps,

00:07:55   and they added a little section in settings

00:07:57   where you could see which of your apps was 32-bit.

00:07:59   So that's nice, you can do this.

00:08:01   I think it's gonna be more disruptive on the Mac,

00:08:04   like we mentioned briefly last week.

00:08:06   But, you know, telling users what's about to happen

00:08:09   before it happens in, you know, six months to a year,

00:08:12   whenever it would be, is certainly a good thing.

00:08:14   This dialogue, I think, is better worded.

00:08:17   This one actually tells you what the problem is.

00:08:20   - I don't know, I've always found these apps,

00:08:21   like when the one happened on 10 point whatever,

00:08:24   nobody I knew who didn't already know

00:08:27   where the dialogue is about, guessed correctly from the thing. And I don't know how they

00:08:31   should word it because people don't care about 32 versus 64, but what it actually says is

00:08:35   — so it's a two-line dialogue, it's got the bold line and then the longer, non-bold

00:08:39   sentence underneath it. It says, "Whatever the application name is not optimized for

00:08:43   your Mac." Now —

00:08:44   Oh, yeah, this actually is a terrible dialogue now that I think about it.

00:08:46   Now, "is not optimized for your Mac," that's not really true. Like, I know what they're

00:08:51   trying to get at, but it makes it seem like the same app that was running fine yesterday

00:08:55   now somehow like because people read optimized and think it means slower or something and

00:08:59   it's the same speed as it was yesterday right and then the other part says this app needs

00:09:03   to be updated by its developer to improve compatibility that's that's closer to true

00:09:07   because the app does what the remedy is developer of the app needs to do something like you

00:09:12   user can't do anything about this the developer needs to do it and why does it need to be

00:09:16   updated to improve compatibility compatibility with what compatibility with an os that apple

00:09:20   is going to release sometime in the semi-near future that's what the competitive they don't

00:09:24   Don't say that, but that's what it's about.

00:09:26   So it's tough to word this one, I kinda get that.

00:09:28   - That's actually really bad.

00:09:30   So like, you know, you're right,

00:09:32   not optimized means it might be slow,

00:09:34   which is very different from it's going to stop working

00:09:37   in six months if you update your Mac OS.

00:09:39   And when the iOS dialogue came out,

00:09:40   if I remember correctly, I think it's something

00:09:43   on the lines of that it won't work in future versions

00:09:46   of iOS or in a future version of iOS.

00:09:48   But this, like, to improve compatibility,

00:09:51   that's pretty euphemistic too.

00:09:53   It's like, what they should say is,

00:09:56   this app needs to be updated by its developer

00:09:58   to work on a future version of Mac OS.

00:10:01   Something like that that's even a little more vague

00:10:03   about the timeline, but just to say,

00:10:06   improved compatibility doesn't mean anything,

00:10:08   not optimized means it'll run slowly.

00:10:11   The truth here is this is going to stop working

00:10:13   completely soon.

00:10:15   - And the iOS 11 dialog said, app name needs to be updated,

00:10:19   which I think is better than app name,

00:10:21   what does the product field say?

00:10:22   - Is not optimized?

00:10:22   not optimized, but it needs to be updated, it's much more clear.

00:10:25   And then the subtext was, the developer of this app needs to update it to work with iOS

00:10:29   11.

00:10:30   So not only was it clear that the reason it needs to be updated is so it will work with

00:10:33   like a future OS, but it tells you the name, iOS 11.

00:10:36   So yeah, the iOS dialog was definitely better.

00:10:38   Yeah, that is perfect.

00:10:39   All right, before we move on, so the dialog has buttons.

00:10:43   It has an OK button, which is just like, OK, whatever, nothing happens.

00:10:46   Your app will launch then, by the way.

00:10:48   It doesn't stop your app from launching, it just shows this the first time you launch

00:10:50   and if you say "okay" it just launches and it's just like it was the day before this

00:10:53   dialog appeared.

00:10:54   And there's a "learn more" button, and the "learn more" button takes you to Apple's

00:10:59   Knowledge Base article about this, which is pretty good, and it explains what's going

00:11:03   on in more detail in the dialog, obviously, which, by the way, this is, you know, the

00:11:07   iOS thing lacks this, there's no place to get more information.

00:11:11   As far as I can tell, I don't know, I should try to get that to come up and tap it or something.

00:11:15   Anyway, the part that stuck out to me in this Knowledge Base article is when it gets to

00:11:20   the point where it explains to you, like, you can't do anything about this, developer

00:11:24   needs to update it, this is why, blah blah blah.

00:11:26   Near the end, there's a section that says, "How do I get in touch with the app developer?"

00:11:31   Which I think is a good question.

00:11:33   So you're telling me, you know, people see this dialogue and they say the developer needs

00:11:36   to update it, and they're like, "Developer?

00:11:38   Like I don't, do I even know what that is?

00:11:40   Let alone who it is?

00:11:41   How would I find the developer of this app?"

00:11:44   And if I was tasked with writing this, I would find myself writing like seven paragraphs

00:11:52   about like, "Well…"

00:11:55   So sometimes it's not an individual, sometimes it's a company, sometimes the company that

00:11:59   used to make the application is gone.

00:12:01   How would you find the person?

00:12:02   Maybe they've moved on, maybe they don't have that job anymore, maybe no one is maintaining

00:12:05   this software.

00:12:07   There's no 100% sure way to find the person who wrote this, but of course they can't

00:12:13   that like they're not going to go on for 20 pages. So they have a very short bit of information

00:12:18   that like I don't know I can't think of much better but this seems bad to me. The easiest

00:12:23   way to contact a developer is to look them up on the web. To find the name of the developer

00:12:29   of an app, open the app, click the app name in the menu bar and choose about. So they

00:12:32   send you to the about. It's two sentences right? The first one says look them up on

00:12:35   the web. What if the developer is John Smith? Look them up on the web? The about box maybe

00:12:41   Maybe it will have a link to their website, but maybe it will just have a name.

00:12:43   Or maybe it will just say, "My cool software company incorporated 2010."

00:12:50   That's really destroying people into the deep end.

00:12:52   Like, I don't know, do a Google search.

00:12:55   Figure it out.

00:12:56   Maybe you'll find somebody.

00:12:57   This is going to cause people with the same name as 32-bit app developers to get a lot

00:13:02   of bad email.

00:13:03   My favorite part of this entire page is the very first sentence in the body text.

00:13:07   State of the art technology is what makes a Mac a Mac.

00:13:12   - That was written years ago though.

00:13:13   I haven't updated this knowledge base article

00:13:15   in a long time. - Yeah, I was gonna say,

00:13:16   like, look at the Macs that are for sale today

00:13:18   and tell me which of them have state of the art technology.

00:13:21   All of the Macs that are for sale,

00:13:22   not just the most recent models.

00:13:25   Let's see, does the MacBook Air

00:13:27   have state of the art technology?

00:13:28   How about the Mac Mini?

00:13:29   - It is still a product in their lineup.

00:13:31   - We are sponsored this week by Molekule,

00:13:34   a complete reinvention of the home air purifier.

00:13:38   This is not just an improvement on existing

00:13:40   outdated technology like, say, HEPA filters,

00:13:42   which you might have heard of.

00:13:43   Molekule is a breakthrough science that actually

00:13:47   is finally capable of destroying air pollutants

00:13:50   at a molecular level, and this includes not only

00:13:53   mold, allergens, even bacteria and viruses,

00:13:55   which I found kind of amazing.

00:13:57   This sounded to me, when I first heard about this,

00:13:59   this sounded really out there and kind of too good

00:14:01   be true. But it's actually been extensively tested and verified by third parties and it

00:14:07   was even backed and funded by the EPA. This is the real deal. And they sent me one. It

00:14:12   is pretty nice, I gotta say. I can't say whether it's fixed my allergies yet because I've only

00:14:16   had it for about a week. But I'll tell you one thing, this is the time to try it because

00:14:20   I think the pollen season is about to kick in in full force over the next couple of weeks.

00:14:24   So I'm really glad I have this right now. And Molekule has actually been personally

00:14:28   effective and verified by science, but most importantly, it's been tested by real people.

00:14:33   It has already helped allergy and asthma sufferers around the country better cope with their

00:14:37   conditions and significantly reduce their symptoms. One of their customers even told

00:14:41   them she was able to breathe through her nose for the first time in 15 years. I totally

00:14:45   understand how you can get there. This thing, I gotta say, it's really nice. It's pretty

00:14:51   big. At the higher speeds, it's a little loud, but the lower speeds is actually very quiet,

00:14:56   and I'm very, very happy with it.

00:14:58   I keep mine in my bedroom now,

00:15:00   and I'm thinking about buying a couple more

00:15:01   for the rest of the house.

00:15:02   So far, I like it a lot.

00:15:04   I'm really very impressed by it.

00:15:06   It leaves the room smelling like nothing,

00:15:10   or like fresh air, not just like ozone or some scent.

00:15:13   It's really quite nice.

00:15:15   I suggest you check it out if you are an air filter person,

00:15:17   or if you feel like you need an air filter,

00:15:19   or you suffer from allergies or asthma, check out Molekule.

00:15:22   You can get $75 off your first order

00:15:25   code ATP and you do this at Molekule.com. It's spelled like the word but switch out

00:15:29   the C for a K. So M-O-L-E-K-U-L-E. Molekule with a K. That's Molekule.com. $75 off your

00:15:37   first order with code ATP. Thank you so much to Molekule for sponsoring our show.

00:15:45   Sean Harding writes, "Hey, I had one of those ProClip mounts that went into a gap in the

00:15:49   dash for my Audi S5. It not only went in the gap but also had adhesive. I was hesitant

00:15:55   but gave in. And I lost my desktop. Hello, sorry, things are happening on my computer.

00:16:00   Where the f*** did that go?

00:16:01   While you were reading, did the window disappear out from under your eyeballs?

00:16:05   Well, because I was opening a new window before I started reading all this, and then it opened,

00:16:12   and then things disappeared.

00:16:13   Wow, your computer is slow.

00:16:15   Oh, would you stop? God, you're so mean to me.

00:16:18   You were opening a window, then you had time to read two sentences, then the window finally

00:16:21   opened?

00:16:22   VNC window leave me alone. Now. Let me reboot this whole thing

00:16:25   What are you using VNC for what are you remotely controlling because I'm remotely controlling the laptop

00:16:32   That's sitting like two two inches away from me because I am trying to

00:16:35   To look at something for work real quick, so I don't have to worry about it

00:16:39   Are you doing air traffic control during this podcast? What's going on? You trying to land planes at Dallas?

00:16:43   We aren't talking about the Mac Pro yet, you can't like be paying your bills and stuff. Yeah, I know I know I know

00:16:50   No, we're getting there, all right.

00:16:51   So let me just reboot this whole damn thing.

00:16:54   Sean Harding writes, I'm rebooting,

00:16:56   not literally rebooting.

00:16:57   - Oh, the segment.

00:16:58   - He's trying to keep that out of the show,

00:16:59   but I'm pretty sure it's going in.

00:17:01   - No, it's not going in, please no.

00:17:03   Sean Harding writes, I had one of those ProClip mounts

00:17:05   that went into a gap in the dash for my Audi S5.

00:17:09   It not only went in the gap, but it also had adhesive.

00:17:11   I was hesitant, but gave in.

00:17:12   And now I have a big gap in the trim

00:17:14   and adhesive residue, two thumbs down.

00:17:17   - So the ProClip mounts that I was talking about last week,

00:17:19   that go in your car, they're made for each individual

00:17:21   car model, the design of certain dashboards and stuff,

00:17:25   certain ones are gonna be easier or harder to affix

00:17:28   something very securely to than others.

00:17:30   I lucked out in that mine just uses the air vent

00:17:34   and just kinda uses a pressure fit inside the air vent,

00:17:36   top and bottom, so that it doesn't leave anything behind

00:17:39   and there's no permanent dash damage by it.

00:17:42   But if your car is one where it has to do something

00:17:44   a little more aggressive, then that makes sense

00:17:47   to have that be a problem for you.

00:17:51   It isn't a problem for me.

00:17:52   Also, if it's a lease, maybe you don't want to mess with the dash,

00:17:55   because who knows what they'll say about that when you try to give it back.

00:17:58   The thing about the vent ones that some people wrote in about

00:18:02   is they're like, oh, isn't it bad to keep your phone there

00:18:05   like in the winter with the heat blowing out of the vent on it?

00:18:07   And I just assume that every car has that little dial or whatever

00:18:10   that lets you turn off the vent.

00:18:12   And I would suggest that if you--

00:18:14   in the winter, if you have your phone in a vent clip,

00:18:17   turn the vent behind the phone off so heat isn't constantly blowing in the back of

00:18:20   your phone because that's terrible.

00:18:21   In the summer, air conditioning blowing in the back, that's probably great because

00:18:24   it gets pretty hot in the car with the sun beating down on your phone, so that'll probably

00:18:28   even out.

00:18:29   But if you have no dial because your car is a weird super modern thing where there's

00:18:35   no way to control the air vents except for a tiny dot in the middle of a giant field

00:18:40   that you drag around as a vague way to suggest to the car where air might come out.

00:18:45   - Yeah, that sounds pretty cool to be honest.

00:18:47   I haven't seen it yet, but it sounds pretty cool.

00:18:48   - Do yours doesn't have that?

00:18:49   I thought that was on all of those tests.

00:18:50   - No, it's only the Model 3,

00:18:52   which I haven't seen in real life yet.

00:18:53   - Well, it's like if you just wanna turn off the vent

00:18:55   that your phone is attached to though,

00:18:57   I'm not sure how you can do that

00:18:57   by dragging a puck around a little ice hockey rink.

00:18:59   - I actually, as far as I know,

00:19:01   I don't think I can turn off a vent.

00:19:03   They have little slider things, you can redirect it,

00:19:06   but there's no, I don't think I can turn that vent off.

00:19:08   - You don't have the little dial?

00:19:09   - No, but this isn't a problem in reality

00:19:11   because automatic climate control

00:19:14   never has the heat blowing out of the center vents.

00:19:16   It's always blowing in the feet vent,

00:19:18   the defroster vent, or both,

00:19:20   but it's never blowing out the front vents.

00:19:22   That's not how you're supposed to heat a car.

00:19:24   - Why wouldn't you want it out of the front vents?

00:19:26   - Because you don't need heat blowing in your face.

00:19:28   You need it blowing in your feet.

00:19:29   - Sometimes my face is cold.

00:19:31   I'll tell you where I want the air.

00:19:34   - I would not consider this a big problem in reality

00:19:37   for almost anybody because the way you're supposed to be

00:19:40   climate managing your car,

00:19:42   you shouldn't really be blowing a lot of hot air

00:19:43   through the front vents anyway, and also,

00:19:46   if you're using your phone in a dock

00:19:48   and running like waves or something,

00:19:49   it's already running so hot that, you know,

00:19:51   it actually might improve the heat efficiency of your car

00:19:53   to be blowing it across your phone on the way to your face.

00:19:55   - Okay, 'cause the phone is, you know, 150 degrees,

00:19:58   but the air coming out of the vent is 75,

00:20:00   so it's actually cooling it.

00:20:01   (laughing)

00:20:02   - Exactly.

00:20:03   - All right, with regard to my beloved blue towel,

00:20:06   speaking of car-related things,

00:20:08   Andyg5 writes that the surgical rag that I use

00:20:11   called a HUC, H-U-C-K. It's a sterile towel used to dry hands after a surgical scrub before operating,

00:20:18   and apparently he has a million of them. And then Eugene Friesen writes in that they're actually

00:20:22   available on Amazon, so I'll put a link in the show notes. I was not aware of this, which is

00:20:25   super good news because I kind of need some. We also got some feedback about whether or not it's

00:20:30   plastic ventilating onto the interior of your windshield. John, do you have any thoughts on that

00:20:36   or do you not care? Yeah, no, that's true. Outgassing from, you know, that new car smell

00:20:40   and various other things that you smell in cars, outgassing from carpets and from plastic,

00:20:44   and a lot of that crap gets all over your windshield and makes it gross.

00:20:47   Fun.

00:20:48   Finally, or almost finally, actually, car subscriptions.

00:20:52   Zach, a friend of mine, asked, "Why not have a Lyft subscription?

00:20:57   Like insurance, the light users would subsidize the heavy ones."

00:21:00   That sounded like a brilliant idea.

00:21:02   And then, fast forward three days after I heard this feedback from my buddy Zach, and

00:21:06   I somehow saw an article or a headline or something like that

00:21:10   about how Lyft actually is or will soon be offering subscriptions,

00:21:13   which I didn't know was a thing.

00:21:15   - This is the kind of thing that like,

00:21:17   it's nice in a lot of situations,

00:21:20   and it might even prove to be nice

00:21:22   in the majority of situations for some people.

00:21:24   But the great flexibility of having your own car

00:21:28   parked in your driveway or in your garage

00:21:30   or near or in front of your place

00:21:32   is that it's always there ready for you.

00:21:34   It's dedicated capacity just for you.

00:21:37   If you're relying on, not public transit,

00:21:40   but if you're relying on services like Lyft or Uber

00:21:43   or other kind of car share services,

00:21:45   there's only a certain number of cars out there

00:21:47   at any given time.

00:21:48   And they're only in a certain number of places

00:21:49   and they're a lot less densely available

00:21:53   once you get out of the major cities.

00:21:54   When you have your own car, it's always there ready for you

00:21:57   no matter when you wanna use it with zero weight

00:22:00   or close enough to zero weight.

00:22:01   When you're relying on something like this,

00:22:04   it might work nine times out of 10,

00:22:05   but then the 10th time you go to use it,

00:22:07   oh, there aren't any for the next 45 minutes,

00:22:09   or it's a spike because of demand,

00:22:12   or the nearest one is too far away

00:22:15   and doesn't want to take your ride,

00:22:16   or you keep getting the same one over and over again

00:22:19   that some driver that's terrible that you don't want,

00:22:21   that their car smells like smoke and cats and stuff.

00:22:24   And it's like, when it's yours, when it's your car,

00:22:27   it is always there ready to go.

00:22:30   And so depending on how important that car

00:22:32   and the mobility are to you,

00:22:35   and I think for most people in most of America,

00:22:37   it's very important because the public infrastructure

00:22:39   just isn't there for most of us.

00:22:41   Having that car be dedicated to you,

00:22:43   having your own that's always ready to go,

00:22:45   that's always right there, that's always yours,

00:22:47   and you can put your stuff in it,

00:22:49   and you can know that it's always gonna be there

00:22:51   and be ready, that's gonna have a pretty big advantage

00:22:54   for a lot of people.

00:22:55   So I don't see personal car ownership

00:23:00   of some form going away.

00:23:01   Like Lyft and Uber, that's not that.

00:23:03   That's something else.

00:23:04   The subscription is just another way

00:23:06   to have cars that are yours.

00:23:07   So that I think makes some sense maybe in the future,

00:23:10   but it's never gonna be totally replaced in America

00:23:13   unless our density radically changes,

00:23:16   which I don't see happening.

00:23:17   - Well, this is a psychological pricing ploy,

00:23:19   like for city dwellers who are never gonna own a car

00:23:22   'cause they can't afford a parking spot for it or whatever,

00:23:24   you use Lyft all the time anyway,

00:23:26   you can convince enough of them to subscribe,

00:23:29   essentially paying more like Zach said.

00:23:31   Most people will say,

00:23:32   oh, it's just easier to pay that subscription

00:23:34   and not have to worry about the hassle of,

00:23:36   you know, paying each time and everything.

00:23:37   And maybe that'll make me feel like,

00:23:38   oh, I'll use it more.

00:23:39   I have a subscription, I'll use it more, right?

00:23:41   And maybe they won't use it more, you know?

00:23:43   And so, Liffle ended up making more money

00:23:47   from the people who thought they were gonna really totally

00:23:48   use that description all the time,

00:23:50   but actually take the same number of rides

00:23:51   as they always did.

00:23:52   It ends up being a bad deal for them.

00:23:53   But the few heavy users get a really good deal

00:23:56   because now they can just ride as much as they want

00:23:58   for a flat fee.

00:23:59   Lyft will figure out the economics of it, I'm sure, and try to.

00:24:02   But it's the type of pricing psychology that can make everybody involved feel like they're

00:24:08   getting a good deal, even though obviously, you know, they're not, right?

00:24:11   So Lyft would be happy if they make more money, and the users would be happy if they perceive

00:24:19   the subscription as a good value, regardless of whether it's actually a good value.

00:24:24   Finally, somebody, and I don't have this email in front of me, somebody was very grumpy about

00:24:29   the fact that we called San Jose not very big.

00:24:31   And Jon, did you put this in here?

00:24:33   Would you like to…

00:24:34   It happened last year too when we were talking about San Jose and we got so much feedback

00:24:38   about it, I forget if we ever even did follow up about it, but we should, because I've totally

00:24:41   forgot about the follow up from last year already.

00:24:43   We're like, "Oh, San Jose, nobody's there, it's empty, it's not like San Francisco,

00:24:47   it's not a big city like San Francisco."

00:24:48   And anytime we say anything like that, someone from San Jose or near San Jose writes in to

00:24:52   tell us, "Well, you know, San Jose is bigger than San Francisco, has a bigger population

00:24:57   than San Francisco," you know, all those things about how San Jose is just massive compared

00:25:01   to everything that we, you know, we're saying it's small but it's not, right? And to that

00:25:07   I would say Texas has more people than San Jose, but if I drop a pin anywhere in Texas,

00:25:12   chances are good I'm going to look around and not see that much. It's all about density.

00:25:15   Yes, San Jose is bigger. San Jose has more people. But practically speaking, if you are

00:25:22   person you get dropped down in WWC and you look around you'd be like where are all

00:25:26   the people as a tumbleweed goes by right like it is very different

00:25:30   experience from the vastly higher density of where Moscone is in San

00:25:35   Francisco so that's what we meant we know it's a big city we know there's lots

00:25:38   of people somewhere also I was interested not a single person refuted

00:25:43   my Truman Show theory about everybody who works there but they're just writing

00:25:49   your name down in the little book, in the little picture of you that says, "Do not

00:25:53   serve this person," or, "Serve this person even more slowly than usual."

00:25:56   I'm not sure I'd be able to tell the difference. Like...

00:25:59   Oh, here we go.

00:26:00   Oh, you wanted to order something? I don't know if I can do that. I'll have to check

00:26:03   with my boss to see if you can order something.

00:26:05   Well, I'm gonna laugh when you get to SOPO or whatever it's called, and they are like,

00:26:10   "Oh, wait, you're Marco. Yeah, we're not serving you." What would you do? You would

00:26:14   have nowhere to go. You would have no court to rule over.

00:26:17   I'd go to the beer and sausage place up the street.

00:26:20   (laughs)

00:26:20   Fair enough.

00:26:21   We are sponsored this week by HelloFresh.

00:26:24   For $30 off your first week,

00:26:26   visit hellofresh.com and enter code ATP30.

00:26:29   HelloFresh is a meal kit delivery service

00:26:32   that shops, plans, and delivers step-by-step recipes

00:26:35   and pre-measured ingredients

00:26:36   so you can just cook, eat, and enjoy.

00:26:39   With HelloFresh, there is something for everyone.

00:26:41   They have three plans to choose from,

00:26:43   classic, veggie for vegetarians,

00:26:46   and family for picky eaters in your family.

00:26:48   Each box is made up of responsibly obtained

00:26:51   fresh ingredients from carefully selected farms

00:26:54   and high rated trusted sources.

00:26:56   You can look forward to your HelloFresh delivery

00:26:58   knowing that dinner just got that much easier.

00:27:01   And even if you're a novice home chef,

00:27:03   you can still figure out HelloFresh ingredients

00:27:05   'cause they have these excellent recipe cards,

00:27:07   they have pictures, step-by-step instructions,

00:27:09   it's really clear what you're supposed to be doing

00:27:11   and they really explain it well.

00:27:13   and you can really enjoy not having to plan dinner

00:27:16   for every single night of the week

00:27:17   or just kind of chickening out and going for takeout.

00:27:20   It's so much easier to do HelloFresh.

00:27:23   HelloFresh ingredients are delivered right to your door

00:27:25   in recyclable insulated packaging.

00:27:28   Unpacking is super easy

00:27:29   'cause everything is in its own bag.

00:27:31   All the meals are separated

00:27:32   so you can really tell what everything is.

00:27:34   Unpacking it takes like two seconds.

00:27:36   Everything, all the ingredients inside each bag

00:27:38   are pre-measured in handy little containers

00:27:41   so you know which ingredients go with which recipe

00:27:43   and there's not a lot of food waste

00:27:45   'cause you have exactly what you need.

00:27:47   So you can spend less time meal planning

00:27:48   and grocery shopping each week

00:27:49   and get that time back to do more of what you love.

00:27:52   Get delicious filling meals delivered right to your door

00:27:55   every week for less than $10 per serving and free shipping.

00:27:59   And if you're gonna be out of town

00:28:00   or just too busy one week,

00:28:02   you can always pause or suspend at any time.

00:28:04   For $30 off your first week of HelloFresh,

00:28:07   visit hellofresh.com and enter code ATP30.

00:28:10   That's hellofresh.com with code ATP30.

00:28:13   Thank you so much to HelloFresh for sponsoring our show.

00:28:16   (upbeat music)

00:28:18   - All right, it's time.

00:28:22   I'm gonna go to sleep now.

00:28:24   Guys, there's been some Mac Pro news.

00:28:27   - I love that you're bringing this up.

00:28:28   You're into this topic. - What am I gonna do?

00:28:30   - You could've just moved on.

00:28:31   - You should summarize the Mac Pro news,

00:28:32   that's what you should do.

00:28:33   - Yeah, chief summarizer and chief.

00:28:35   - I'm going to attempt to.

00:28:36   So, friend of the show, said with no sarcasm,

00:28:39   of the show, Matthew Panzorino, was invited by himself, which is actually kind of interesting

00:28:44   in and of itself. I don't know if we need to unpack that right now or not, but Matt

00:28:47   Panzorino was invited to Apple and was put in front of several different, both executives

00:28:53   and engineers and so on, to talk about, "Hey, what's going on with Mac Pro?" And my summary,

00:29:00   which I'm sure both of you will take issue with, and that's fine, but my summary is Apple

00:29:04   wanted to give a little more insight into what's going on with the Mac Pro.

00:29:09   You could, we can and surely will, pontificate about why that is, but

00:29:14   one can assume, and I think they actually said that, "Hey, we don't want you to make purchasing decisions on the hope that the Mac Pro

00:29:21   is coming out later this year." So they made it plain that it will not be out until 2019. They said 2019,

00:29:28   but we don't know when in 2019.

00:29:31   They said that, and this is what I found most interesting, they've created a workflow group,

00:29:38   as I believe what they called it, and what that basically means is they have contracted

00:29:41   and/or hired creative professionals to sit literally next to the people who work on,

00:29:49   say Final Cut Pro and work on the Mac Pro as well, in order to better understand what

00:29:55   their workflows are.

00:29:56   And they cited an example, and I think it was Final Cut Pro, it doesn't really matter,

00:29:59   But they set in an example of, oh, these creative professionals, there's they open this one

00:30:03   dialogue in Final Cut Pro all the time.

00:30:06   And it takes like 10 seconds to open this dialogue.

00:30:09   And nobody at Apple somehow knew this.

00:30:12   And so because they're now sitting next to each other, you know, the creative professionals

00:30:16   walked down the hall and said, Hey, guys, can we do something about this dialogue?

00:30:19   Because this sucks.

00:30:21   And sure enough, it turned out there was like an error in some driver somewhere or something

00:30:24   like that.

00:30:25   And they were able to fix it.

00:30:27   So the point of all this is, Apple is trying to engage with the broader professional community,

00:30:32   people like us, and say, "Hey, you know, you need to buy an iMac Pro, go buy an iMac Pro.

00:30:39   Don't wait for the Mac Pro, because you're not getting it for a while."

00:30:42   Additionally, they're engaging with the broader professional community in the sense that they've

00:30:45   asked some of these people to come in-house and help them understand what their workflows

00:30:49   are, which I think you can argue both that that's great and that's terrible, and I'm

00:30:55   I'm sure we're about to do exactly that.

00:30:58   But one way or another, it is more insight than we've had into the Mac Pro in a long,

00:31:02   long time.

00:31:04   And it shows us that it's still a thing, which is exciting.

00:31:07   It tells us roughly, with an emphasis on roughly, when it's going to be released.

00:31:12   And they also said that, no, no, no, it's going to be modular.

00:31:15   And I am happy to report, John Syracuse, that they are making it plain or perhaps reiterating

00:31:22   that they are making a display for it as well.

00:31:24   Iterating old news not new. Still, I know you're very excited and I am happy that you're happy

00:31:30   That is I think my summary and as much as I'm snarking about this. This is actually pretty fascinating even for me

00:31:37   I don't see a Mac Pro in my future

00:31:39   but this is really really really interesting and a very different approach than Apple's taken in the past and

00:31:45   whether or not I view a Mac Pro as something I need to buy and

00:31:49   Honestly, I don't think it's something that any of us need to buy but we can argue about that another time

00:31:54   I still think that this approach is really fascinating.

00:31:59   So with that in mind, I will open the floor.

00:32:01   Perhaps we can start with Marco.

00:32:03   What are your thoughts?

00:32:04   - I mean, to me, this has been positioned and summarized

00:32:09   by many, including chief summarizer and chief,

00:32:11   in part, as a Mac Pro roundtable successor from last year.

00:32:16   But there's really no new information here

00:32:21   about the Mac Pro.

00:32:21   The only thing that we know about the Mac Pro

00:32:23   that we didn't know before is that it's definitely

00:32:26   not coming out this year.

00:32:28   That's the only thing that's new here.

00:32:30   What this was really about, I think,

00:32:33   is setting expectations for that, for W2C to come and go,

00:32:38   and for the rest of the year to come and go,

00:32:40   without pros saying, "Hey, where the heck's the Mac Pro?"

00:32:43   That's really what I think this was about on that side,

00:32:46   and then to kind of paper over that,

00:32:50   or to offset that with something that's positive

00:32:54   by showing off that they have this new

00:32:56   kind of like in-house study of pro users

00:33:00   in their natural environment.

00:33:02   - Geometrically speaking, this announcement was

00:33:06   an open-faced (beep) sandwich

00:33:08   that fell face down on the floor.

00:33:09   (laughing)

00:33:11   Because you get the bad news,

00:33:13   there's no good news, bad news, good news.

00:33:16   You just get the bad news and then you get the good news.

00:33:19   So the bad news is no Mac Pro this year,

00:33:21   and the good news is look at the Pro workflow team.

00:33:24   Isn't that cool?

00:33:25   - And you know, honestly, I mean,

00:33:27   this is heavy on the PR puff, obviously.

00:33:31   Not from Panzer, but from Apple.

00:33:34   And there's not a lot of new information really here,

00:33:38   but it is interesting that this Pro group thing

00:33:42   was created there and is being observed

00:33:46   and being worked with.

00:33:47   That is the more interesting part of this announcement,

00:33:49   by far, the actual, again, there's no information

00:33:52   about the Mac Pro.

00:33:53   We don't know anything about the Mac Pro,

00:33:54   except it's not coming this year.

00:33:56   I can speculate on why.

00:33:58   You know, we all can, many of us have.

00:34:01   Honestly, I don't think it's that interesting yet,

00:34:03   because again, we have no new information

00:34:06   except that big hole in the timeline of

00:34:09   it's gonna be next year, which I'm glad they said

00:34:12   it's going to be 2019, as opposed to

00:34:14   it's not going to be this year,

00:34:16   that it could be 2025 or never.

00:34:18   So at least they committed to a year.

00:34:21   You can also speculate, as many people have,

00:34:23   why is it taking Apple so long to develop

00:34:26   what should probably just be a fairly straightforward

00:34:29   like tower or something tower-like.

00:34:31   The answer to that that's most likely

00:34:33   is that last year, like about a year ago

00:34:36   when they had that round table,

00:34:38   I think it is very likely that they literally

00:34:40   had not even started yet.

00:34:41   That it was like, it was decided within a very short time

00:34:45   before that, that they were going to do this.

00:34:48   And that means that from 2013 until 2017,

00:34:53   they were probably not doing any work at all on a Mac Pro.

00:34:57   They were probably assuming the iMac Pro was it.

00:35:00   And they were only working on the iMac Pro.

00:35:02   So it's not that they couldn't do a new tower

00:35:06   in five years or whatever since the last Mac Pro.

00:35:10   It's that they can't do a new tower in a year and a half.

00:35:12   That's I think what we're really seeing here.

00:35:15   But even that is slightly concerning,

00:35:17   because even that's like, you know,

00:35:19   what pros want is new hardware

00:35:22   in some kind of expandable box.

00:35:24   We don't need fancy designs,

00:35:26   we don't need a lot of different types of quote innovation.

00:35:30   We just need new guts in a box.

00:35:33   And for Apple to be, you know,

00:35:36   kinda taking their sweet time

00:35:37   and trying to work on probably something

00:35:39   that's like really, you know, highly designed,

00:35:41   highly custom, that's nice.

00:35:43   I'm not sure that satisfies Apple,

00:35:45   but that's not really what pros are asking for

00:35:47   for this product, but I don't think we can talk Apple

00:35:51   out of that kind of design anymore.

00:35:52   I think that's kind of just what they do.

00:35:54   And from that point of view, the time scale seems reasonable,

00:35:58   that they just started last year,

00:36:01   and they're not just doing something basic,

00:36:02   even though many of us want them to do exactly that

00:36:04   for this product, because they can save the innovation

00:36:07   for all of the rest of their products,

00:36:09   including the iMac Pro, which is fairly innovative

00:36:12   a few ways and it's really nice.

00:36:14   I really like the iMac Pro.

00:36:16   But anyway, they're not doing that so, oh well.

00:36:19   I do think it's interesting also to think now,

00:36:22   maybe one of the reasons they're taking

00:36:24   a little bit of time on this is,

00:36:26   you know, what I expected was the iMac Pro guts

00:36:30   in a box with a couple of GPU slots

00:36:33   and maybe, you know, space for a few M2 drive modules.

00:36:37   I don't think that's what they're doing.

00:36:41   And when the iMac Pro came out,

00:36:42   and when we saw how awesome it was,

00:36:45   and how few downsides it had,

00:36:47   and how few restrictions it had,

00:36:49   one of the things that we said at the time was,

00:36:52   what the heck is left for the Mac Pro to address?

00:36:55   Like, how much headroom above this

00:36:58   can the Mac Pro really achieve?

00:36:59   You know, are they gonna go dual processor maybe,

00:37:02   have many graphics cards supported,

00:37:04   or different types of slots, or whatever?

00:37:06   Who knows what, right?

00:37:07   We were trying to figure out like,

00:37:08   what else, what is left for the Mac Pro to do

00:37:10   that the iMac Pro doesn't do.

00:37:12   So maybe in order to create more headroom in that area,

00:37:17   maybe that took a bit of special engineering.

00:37:19   Maybe they're doing something they haven't done before.

00:37:21   Like for instance, if they're working from the roadmap

00:37:24   of the old Mac Pro, the 2013 Mac Pro,

00:37:27   that one had this rigid GPU arrangement

00:37:30   that only supported these two GPUs

00:37:32   and this one kind of weird arrangement

00:37:33   with this kind of weird integration

00:37:34   with the Thunderbolt bus, and it only supported one CPU

00:37:38   and the whatever it is, four or six RAM slots

00:37:41   and one SSD module, maybe they're doing dual socket CPUs,

00:37:45   and that dramatically complicates things,

00:37:49   and how you have to lay out the internals,

00:37:52   how you have to cool things.

00:37:54   Maybe they're doing a box that can accommodate

00:37:56   lots of different configurations,

00:37:58   like the old towers could.

00:37:59   So maybe you could have one or two CPUs,

00:38:02   one or four GPUs.

00:38:04   They did all sorts of crazy things

00:38:05   back with the old cheese graders and stuff.

00:38:08   The difference now is that the cheese graters

00:38:10   were all before Thunderbolt.

00:38:12   There was a lot less internal PCI Express bandwidth

00:38:16   and things like that that had to be allocated

00:38:18   to external storage.

00:38:20   And GPUs were lower bandwidth

00:38:22   and everything was lower bandwidth back then.

00:38:23   And so to design something now,

00:38:27   you have to really consider how you balance

00:38:29   PCI Express allocations and lanes and speeds

00:38:33   between internal and external stuff,

00:38:34   how you route video signals over the Thunderbolt,

00:38:36   and how you, like do you route the output of the GPU

00:38:39   to a Thunderbolt port on the back,

00:38:41   like how do you do that?

00:38:43   It's fairly complicated to design a really good

00:38:47   Mac Pro tower with modern features

00:38:51   and modern bandwidth and everything else

00:38:53   that also has interchangeable slots,

00:38:56   like that's a hard thing.

00:38:57   So if they're doing something like that,

00:39:00   taking two years to do it seems reasonable.

00:39:02   I don't know if that's what they're doing,

00:39:03   but I hope so.

00:39:05   - So like the people who are saying,

00:39:06   wanted to just give us a box and slap things together.

00:39:09   I think there's a minimum bar of not even innovation,

00:39:14   but just quality or attention to detail or thoughtfulness

00:39:18   that we expect from Apple.

00:39:19   A lot of people look at the cheese graters and say,

00:39:21   oh, it's just a tower case.

00:39:22   Yeah, it's a nice looking tower case, but whatever.

00:39:24   It's just a tower.

00:39:25   It has a door, but it's just got a bunch of slots

00:39:27   and a motherboard and RAM.

00:39:29   It's not much different from PC tower,

00:39:31   as evidenced by all the PC tower clones that came after it.

00:39:34   But I think that the very first one, the Power Mac G5, I think that probably took them longer

00:39:43   to design that plain, boring tower case and everything that goes into it than they're

00:39:48   spending, than they're going to end up spending on this Mac Pro.

00:39:52   It's not because they're insisting on doing something really weird like the trash can,

00:39:57   right?

00:39:58   Because the Power Mac G5 was not really weird.

00:40:01   It was a tower, like straightforward.

00:40:03   Like it wasn't weird at all.

00:40:06   But if you look at it, it's like,

00:40:08   well, it's very carefully designed.

00:40:09   The case has a very simple design

00:40:16   with a big curved piece of aluminum wrapped around

00:40:19   a minimum number of seams.

00:40:21   The door giving you access to the insides,

00:40:26   the way the door fits in and that whole mechanism,

00:40:27   how they route all the ribbon cables

00:40:30   so they're not, to make it look nice on the inside

00:40:33   the ribbon cables are all tucked behind the motherboard and are just the right length

00:40:35   and stuff like that. The way the motherboard is laid out, I mean, all the various custom

00:40:41   chips that might go into it that aren't in any other Mac. It's not rocket science, and

00:40:45   it's not like the thing that people are afraid of, like, oh, it's going to be shaped like

00:40:48   a squid, and it's going to have, you know, Thunderbolt 3 connecting everything, and,

00:40:52   like, you know, like all sorts of "just make me a box." Say Apple is doing that. We're

00:40:57   just making you a box. It is literally a tower. The air comes in the front and out the back.

00:41:02   It is totally straightforward, but doing that the Apple way takes longer than people think.

00:41:09   And I kind of want them to do it the Apple way.

00:41:13   Like if you're in a super big hurry, I can understand.

00:41:15   Like, you're like, "We need towers yesterday.

00:41:16   We can't use the iMac Pro for whatever reasons."

00:41:20   Just slap it together.

00:41:23   People who would be happy with the Hackintosh, right?

00:41:25   I don't care what it looks like, how nice it is.

00:41:27   I don't care how nice the seams are or whatever.

00:41:30   Just slap it together.

00:41:31   But I don't think Apple is really capable of doing that.

00:41:36   Even its products that we, you know, its "worst" products, like the products that we complain

00:41:39   about like, "Oh, you're still selling the MacBook Air?" or whatever.

00:41:42   The MacBook Air is still nice, like industrial design-wise.

00:41:45   The screen is gross, but everything else about it, you know, it looks expensive and carefully

00:41:50   designed.

00:41:51   Like, it's not falling apart and has weird seams and things poking out of it and doesn't

00:41:56   look slapped together.

00:41:57   It looks old, but it doesn't look slapped together.

00:41:59   Apple generally just is not institutionally capable of making hardware that looks like

00:42:07   it's been slapped together.

00:42:08   Like on a speedy schedule, we didn't have time to actually really design this, so we

00:42:11   just used a bunch of stock parts and we screwed them together.

00:42:13   Like the way the bad rap of American cars or any car maker that uses a parts bin dashboard

00:42:19   where we have a bunch of things that we use in all our cars like the window switches or

00:42:24   whatever and we're not going to design custom ones for this car because it's too much trouble

00:42:26   to just slap in the same switches that we use on all our other cars.

00:42:29   American car markets used to do stuff like this all the time these days.

00:42:33   There's more custom parts in cars than you would expect, but that type of thing is just

00:42:38   not how Apple does things.

00:42:40   They're not, aside from trying to share the same stupid keyboard on all their laptops,

00:42:44   like I don't think this thing is going to, you know, it could be as boring as bread and

00:42:51   butter and it's still going to take them two years to make it because that's just how long

00:42:54   this stuff takes.

00:42:55   And like you were saying, Marco, with like you were thinking that it would just be the

00:42:58   iMac Pro internals. I still think that. I thought that from the beginning that, look,

00:43:05   don't get your hopes up for the insides of this Mac Pro to be anything other than the

00:43:08   insides of that, in terms of specs. Like, obviously things will be rearranged and there'd

00:43:11   be a new board and, you know, different slots and stuff like that, but fully expected to

00:43:16   have a T2 and to have the same class of Xeon and so on and so forth. Now with the delay,

00:43:22   I still more or less expect it to be rearranged iMac Pro internals. Like, I don't expect it

00:43:27   to have a T3 chip, I expect it to have a T2 chip, right?

00:43:30   'Cause they don't have time to make a whole other one

00:43:32   of those in this timeline, right?

00:43:34   Unless they were already making it

00:43:36   for the iMac Pro Successor, which I think they are not,

00:43:38   right?

00:43:39   So I expect iMac Pro internals,

00:43:41   maybe with the newer Xeon,

00:43:43   if it's a drop-in replacement, right?

00:43:45   More slots for everything, more RAM slots,

00:43:48   more storage spots,

00:43:49   possibly more room for internal storage, right?

00:43:54   Just like capacity.

00:43:57   from the design, sort of the design brief of this thing should be like more thermal

00:44:01   capacity than an iMac Pro and every other feature flows from that.

00:44:04   Because if you don't do more thermal capacity than an iMac Pro, then the only thing, the

00:44:08   only benefit you're getting is well, if the screen breaks you don't lose your whole computer,

00:44:11   right?

00:44:12   So I feel like this thing is going to have higher thermal ceiling than the iMac Pro and

00:44:17   then you can do lots of stuff with that thermal ceiling and then it becomes a question of

00:44:21   talking to these Pro people like, what do you want?

00:44:24   Do you want two CPUs?

00:44:25   Would you rather have more PCI Express slots?

00:44:27   Do we have to offer you both?

00:44:28   If we just made all of them have one CPU, would that be okay?

00:44:31   How much internal storage do you want versus external?

00:44:34   But it's all how you spend your thermal budget, but the budget has to be way higher than the

00:44:39   iMac Pro or anybody.

00:44:41   Capacity.

00:44:42   How much storage can you put in?

00:44:43   How much RAM can you put in it?

00:44:46   And then, of course, how much heat can it dissipate?

00:44:48   How many GPUs can you put in?

00:44:49   How big can the GPUs be?

00:44:52   And then finally, like you said in the iMac Pro, one of the reasons you like it is because

00:44:55   it doesn't sound like a hand dryer all the time.

00:44:59   To make a big tower computer that has high thermal capacity but is also reasonably quiet

00:45:06   is tricky.

00:45:07   Like, I think about all the PCs I see, and sometimes Lustafter, that have these nicely

00:45:13   designed PCs that have big cooling capacity and try to be quiet.

00:45:17   That doesn't happen if you just take a box and slap a bunch of fans in it.

00:45:21   You have to be thoughtful in some ways to make sure you don't have any weird hot spots

00:45:26   because you didn't think about this component over there.

00:45:28   I know people at Bill Cesar are like, "Oh, just get a really big diameter fan and put

00:45:31   a whole bunch of them in there," and it's like straightforward.

00:45:33   You just put pieces together.

00:45:34   But hand-assembling a PC like that, unless you have lots of experience and know exactly

00:45:39   how everything's going to work with a bunch of custom parts, can lead to weird things

00:45:43   where the heat gradients that you didn't expect or a particular component that is not getting

00:45:49   adequate cooling because there's just no way to route air to there.

00:45:52   It's hacky and it's not up to Apple's quality.

00:45:55   So I think that even if Apple is making the most boring box we could possibly think of,

00:46:04   that they are going to do a better job than I think some people would want, those hackintosh-type

00:46:10   customers.

00:46:11   And as far as I'm concerned, as someone who doesn't need this thing right now, although

00:46:14   you may disagree when you think to how old my Mac is, but I'd rather, like, spend the

00:46:19   time. Spend the time to make, even if it's a boring tower, spend the time to make a boring

00:46:23   tower that's as nice as a cheese grater. Spend the time to make it look nice, spend the time

00:46:27   to make sure that it's super reliable, that it's quiet, figure out a way to make it quiet,

00:46:32   and yes, spend the time talking to people, various pros, and saying, "What do you want

00:46:36   out of this machine?" Like, do we have to make two slots for CPUs, or is that something

00:46:40   that nobody wants and we don't have to do that? Because I don't think they're going

00:46:43   have 17 different configurable versions of this, right? And I also don't think they're going to

00:46:48   make it some magic modular snap together future technology Thunderbolt 3 powered octopus thing.

00:46:56   I know lots of people think that, you know, 2019 this is going to be some crazy trash can,

00:47:00   but I don't, I don't think that. I think it's going to be a fairly straightforward machine.

00:47:02   I just want it to be nice. I just, um, I, I'm struggling because I, I do see both sides of

00:47:08   this, like on the one side, just like you guys had said, you know, why not just make,

00:47:13   take the old cheese grater, you know, form factor, slap new bits in it and call it a day. But there's

00:47:20   been a lot of changes to the Mac in the last couple of years. You know, what used to be,

00:47:24   for the purposes of this conversation, what used to be just vanilla Intel motherboards with vanilla

00:47:29   Intel chips on them now are not quite so simple. We have, you know, the T2 that one of you guys

00:47:35   mentioned earlier. We have all these different, you know, coprocessors. We have a touch bar that

00:47:39   We have never seen be external to the device.

00:47:42   We have a secure enclave.

00:47:44   There's so many different things that make this so much more complex than before.

00:47:47   And when you also add modularity into this, because there's basically no Apple computer

00:47:56   sold today that is as modular as we are expecting and being told that this will be.

00:48:02   And I can't imagine it's easy to keep up with these extremely stringent security requirements

00:48:09   while also doing this modular thing.

00:48:13   So as an example, like this Phantom Apple display, this new Cinema Display, if you will,

00:48:18   presumably that's going to have a camera in it, an iSight camera in it, or a FaceTime camera,

00:48:22   whatever they're calling it now.

00:48:23   Presumably they're going to want that to be controlled by the T2,

00:48:27   or whatever it is that controls them these days.

00:48:30   How do you do that when it's not part of the device itself?

00:48:34   How does that work?

00:48:35   So yeah, I mean, you could just say, "Yeah, screw it.

00:48:39   If somebody can hack your camera, well, tough nuggies, you made this bed yourself."

00:48:42   But that's not Apple's way.

00:48:44   So I understand all the angst about, "Oh, we'll just use a cheese grater,

00:48:47   put some new bits in it, and walk away."

00:48:49   And I could make a pretty good argument that they should do that

00:48:52   and then do the real Mac Pro afterwards.

00:48:55   But just like you said, Jon, that's not Apple's way.

00:48:58   Apple's way is to make this interesting and innovative and smart.

00:49:02   And I think and I hope that's what they're doing.

00:49:05   Well, nice. It doesn't have to be innovative. Because as a cheese grater, is it innovative?

00:49:09   What's innovative about the cheese grater? The only thing that's innovative about it is how nice it is.

00:49:12   It's just a tower case. The CPUs weren't arranged in an octagon. It wasn't cooled by jellyfish.

00:49:21   It was just a tower case with fans and had hard drives and RAM and slots. It was very straightforward.

00:49:28   But it's nice. The trash can was innovative. Wow, this tube-shaped thing with a chimney design and

00:49:34   and a little triangle motherboard and two GPUs and like, that was an innovative design.

00:49:39   That's what people are afraid is happening.

00:49:41   And I mean, I'm assuming, talking to the pros, that pros are not saying, "Please make it,

00:49:46   you know, really weird."

00:49:47   Like they don't care what it looks like.

00:49:49   I'm hoping the influence of talking to these people will cause it to be more—will push

00:49:55   back against any unconventional thinking that Apple may bring to the table.

00:49:59   Like, "What if we gave you something like this?"

00:50:00   I hope the pros go, "That might work, but I know this will work.

00:50:03   Why don't you just make me this?

00:50:05   And by the way, this article, unless I'm mistaken,

00:50:07   does not say that this Pro workflow team

00:50:09   was created for this.

00:50:11   It just tells you about the Pro workflow team.

00:50:12   I have no idea how long the Pro workflow team

00:50:14   has been in Apple.

00:50:15   Maybe they've been there for a decade

00:50:16   advising the Final Cut Pro team

00:50:17   and every Pro Mac that they've ever made, right?

00:50:20   This is just part of, to soften the blow

00:50:22   of the Mac grownup being this year,

00:50:24   we'll tell you about a thing that previously

00:50:26   we had no reason to tell you about,

00:50:28   because what do you care what we do internally, right?

00:50:30   But to make you feel like we're really paying attention,

00:50:32   and we'll tell you about this."

00:50:34   Which I think is fine.

00:50:35   Like if someone snarkily tweeted,

00:50:36   "Congratulations, Apple.

00:50:37   You've discovered user acceptance testing."

00:50:39   Which is snarky, but probably wrong,

00:50:41   because Apple hasn't discovered it.

00:50:42   Like I said, I think this has always existed.

00:50:45   Maybe it's been ramped up.

00:50:46   Maybe they've been given closer access to machines

00:50:48   instead of just being given weird, you know,

00:50:50   disguised boxes and saying, "What do you think of this?"

00:50:53   But this is the type of thing

00:50:56   that you would hope any company is doing,

00:50:59   But the legend of Apple, the face that they present to the world, doesn't include this.

00:51:08   The legend of Apple is, we don't need to talk to people to know what to make.

00:51:13   We don't do focus groups, we don't ask you what you want because you don't know what

00:51:16   you want.

00:51:17   We'll tell you what you want.

00:51:20   We just go off to the mountain and we come down with a thing and trust me, you'll love

00:51:23   it.

00:51:24   Right?

00:51:25   And that's how we got the touch bar.

00:51:26   Eh, maybe not.

00:51:27   Maybe that's more of the focus group thing or someone has an idea and you tell people do you think this is a good idea?

00:51:31   And everyone goes yeah, that sounds like it might be a good idea, but people are dummies like this

00:51:35   like it's a steam job the Steve Jobs school of thought of like

00:51:38   You know

00:51:39   Don't ask people like we are smart enough on our own to figure it out if we ask people will make mediocre stuff because I mean

00:51:45   That's that's true of any product focus groups are death. It's like the you know, the Homer car from from the Simpsons, right?

00:51:51   Just everyone has ideas about what they think they want, but everyone is not a product designer

00:51:55   It's your job as a product designer to synthesize their desires and figure out what it is that

00:52:00   they really want, so on and so forth.

00:52:01   But the more a company is perceived to be allowing the customer to lead them, the more

00:52:09   it is likely to make mediocre products and to lose sight of true innovation.

00:52:15   It's all innovative dilemma thing.

00:52:16   Like if you just keep talking to your best customers, they'll continually ask for – like

00:52:19   we do on the show, essentially.

00:52:21   If you just listen to your mainframe customers, they keep telling you about how they want

00:52:24   you to make better and better mainframes and you missed the PC revolution, right? Because

00:52:27   you're just like, "Well, all of our biggest customers say they want this and they want

00:52:31   that." And you will never make the PC if you keep talking to your mainframe customers.

00:52:36   You have to say, "Well, actually, there's another thing we should be doing, and those

00:52:38   customers will never tell us to do that. There's a million business books about this, right?"

00:52:43   But Apple, we don't perceive as saying, "We're not really sure how to make a pro computer.

00:52:46   Can we get some pros in here to tell us what do you like? Do you like this? Do you like

00:52:49   that?" It's from a position of weakness, and we want them to just know everything automatically.

00:52:54   and just make beautiful things that everybody loved.

00:52:56   Reality, of course, is neither extreme is true.

00:52:58   Steve Jobs' Apple still took customer feedback

00:53:02   and that's always been a part of the process.

00:53:04   And this whole pro-Work Vault team,

00:53:06   I'm sure, does have some influence,

00:53:07   but in the end, if Johnny Ive doesn't want it,

00:53:09   it's not going on there.

00:53:10   So I think this is one of the reasons

00:53:15   you don't talk about your process,

00:53:18   because once people outside the company

00:53:20   start thinking about your process,

00:53:22   It loses some of the magic and you start worrying about,

00:53:27   is that really the best process to do this?

00:53:30   I'm not on the pro workflow team.

00:53:31   What if they're not talking to me?

00:53:32   In fact, we got some feedback about that

00:53:34   from other people saying, yeah, they're talking to pros

00:53:36   in film and video and whatever industries,

00:53:39   but they're not talking to pros in my industry,

00:53:41   whatever that may be, you know, academics, R&D,

00:53:45   you know, scientific stuff.

00:53:48   Like, I don't know, I forget what the,

00:53:51   categories outside of

00:53:53   What they have listed that are on the pro work of the for all we know the pro

00:53:57   Work for team does include all those they didn't tell us everything about them. But either way if you don't feel like your

00:54:02   Views are being represented and you buy into the idea that it's that small group of people

00:54:08   That's essentially dictating what this machine will look like that doesn't feel good either

00:54:11   Because now when the machine comes out you'd be like, oh great that business is a great machine for video editors

00:54:16   But for me doing medical imaging it sucks. They should have had medical images in their pro workflow team

00:54:20   That's, you know, that's the difficulty of making any product.

00:54:24   They're not going to make an entire line of Mac Pros to suit everybody's needs.

00:54:29   They're going to make one that suits most people's needs, where most is defined

00:54:34   as people Apple thinks will buy a Mac Pro.

00:54:36   >> And at that, with the asterisk, we hope.

00:54:38   It will suit most people's needs, we hope.

00:54:40   >> Yeah, maybe they'll be wrong about that.

00:54:42   Maybe, you know, that's, again, with the process.

00:54:44   Like, wouldn't it be -- for all you know, Apple, if you made this kind of computer,

00:54:49   a whole new class of people would want to buy it.

00:54:51   Ignore the pro video people, because your real market is,

00:54:54   you know, like makers with their 3D printers,

00:54:57   and they need to do CAD on it.

00:54:58   I don't know.

00:54:59   Like, that's kind of Apple's job to figure out.

00:55:01   But if your starting point is a more or less

00:55:06   conventional tower with a separate monitor

00:55:08   that's really nice and that has the same capabilities

00:55:11   and performance profiles as the iMac Pro,

00:55:12   but with more capacity,

00:55:14   that's a pretty good starting point for most people.

00:55:16   And then they can ask for things here and there.

00:55:20   But I don't think that that pro workflow team is going to do anything other than have minor

00:55:26   suggestions about a very conventional design.

00:55:32   And best case scenario, that team was able to dissuade Apple very early on, like last

00:55:37   year or sometime, to not make a weird octopus thing.

00:55:42   Right?

00:55:43   So don't go down that path.

00:55:44   "Would you have some sketches?"

00:55:46   I hope everyone involved would say,

00:55:48   "That might be good, it might be bad,

00:55:50   "but it's an unknown and you already did that

00:55:51   "with a trash can, so let's just reel this back in.

00:55:54   "Let's start with a box."

00:55:55   - I feel like too, there's different levels

00:55:59   at which this kind of user focus group

00:56:02   or work group is useful or needed.

00:56:06   It makes total sense to have people who use,

00:56:10   say, the Pro apps work with Apple on some level

00:56:14   and have Apple ask them what they need

00:56:16   and watch what they need and work closely with them

00:56:19   to tailor the Pro apps to the needs

00:56:22   of the people who buy them.

00:56:23   But as you go kind of further down, I guess, the stack

00:56:28   of the platforms, the operating systems,

00:56:31   and then eventually the hardware,

00:56:34   it gets less and less specific.

00:56:36   The whole appeal of personal computing

00:56:39   is that these machines are generalists.

00:56:42   they can be used to do anything.

00:56:44   Lots of different tasks can be done on these machines.

00:56:47   And so the hardware and the platforms and the OS

00:56:52   have to be able to support anything,

00:56:55   because you never know what people are going to do.

00:56:57   You can pick a few use cases and say,

00:57:00   "Let's make sure that it works well for these use cases,

00:57:02   "'cause we've heard that a lot of people

00:57:04   "use it for that," or something.

00:57:05   But you can never accommodate everything via user testing

00:57:09   that people are going to want these computers

00:57:11   and operating systems to do.

00:57:13   So as you go down, like, it, you know,

00:57:15   have the team that makes Final Cut work with video editors.

00:57:19   That makes total sense.

00:57:21   But even that is like kind of hard to describe.

00:57:23   Like, I guarantee you, no one on the Logic team

00:57:26   has ever watched somebody edit a podcast in Logic.

00:57:28   (laughs)

00:57:30   And maybe it's a pretty light use case, I don't know,

00:57:32   but I'm telling you, it's never happened.

00:57:33   But anyway, the OS and the hardware

00:57:36   have to be as versatile as possible.

00:57:40   So this is why this is kind of like a,

00:57:42   I don't think this has a lot to do with the Mac Pro.

00:57:45   Like this user, I think this is purely like a PR thing

00:57:47   to cover up, the information they wanted to communicate

00:57:50   was don't expect the Mac Pro this year,

00:57:53   and as John said, they gave you this

00:57:56   Pro Workflows group thing as something good

00:57:59   to stick on top of that, and that's nice,

00:58:01   but I don't think they're that related.

00:58:04   And the design of a Mac, any Mac, even,

00:58:08   I know a lot of people have been arguing about

00:58:10   the definition of pro.

00:58:11   What counts as a pro?

00:58:12   I think this is a totally useless distinction.

00:58:14   It doesn't matter.

00:58:15   Pro is marketing, that's all it is.

00:58:17   Pro just means the bigger one or the more expensive one.

00:58:19   Any other focusing of what this definition is

00:58:22   is not productive.

00:58:24   All of the computers in the lineup

00:58:26   should be as versatile as possible.

00:58:28   The OS and the platforms and everything

00:58:30   should be as versatile as possible

00:58:31   to accommodate any kind of work,

00:58:34   any kind of workflow, any kind of workload.

00:58:36   The only reason that you shouldn't be able to do something

00:58:39   on a MacBook Air that you can do on a Mac Pro

00:58:43   is if the MacBook Air doesn't have hardware support

00:58:47   for what you're doing, if it doesn't have enough RAM,

00:58:49   or if it's just too damn slow,

00:58:51   or if it doesn't have enough Thunderbolt bandwidth.

00:58:54   That should be the only difference between these products.

00:58:56   And when computers are properly designed,

00:58:58   which they have been for decades,

00:59:00   that is the only distinction.

00:59:02   For most types of applications,

00:59:03   unless there's a specific GPU requirement or something.

00:59:06   Like, you don't quote, "need" a MacBook Pro to edit video.

00:59:10   You can edit video in a MacBook Air.

00:59:13   It'll just be slower, and stuff like that.

00:59:14   Like, when you buy or if you sell computers,

00:59:17   you try to make these distinctions.

00:59:18   You try to say, "Oh, well, you need to go to this model

00:59:22   "if you need to do this."

00:59:23   Or, "If you're only doing this, you should only be using

00:59:25   "this cheapo, crappy model over here."

00:59:28   But these distinctions are all just for sales and marketing

00:59:30   and for the most part, the only thing that matters is,

00:59:32   Does it have the tech specs to do what you need at all?

00:59:35   And then you can argue about how fast.

00:59:38   To bring in user testing groups like this

00:59:41   to influence hardware decisions, I think is questionable.

00:59:47   Because for a long time, to the best of our knowledge,

00:59:51   these kinds of people being brought in

00:59:54   for hardware decisions were not necessary

00:59:57   or weren't happening.

00:59:59   And we still don't know that they're being used

01:00:00   for hardware today, but assuming that they are,

01:00:02   'cause this was kind of weirdly tied to the Mac Pro

01:00:04   and this PR thing, they should just make

01:00:07   the kind of computer that has the most

01:00:09   you can possibly have in it for this role.

01:00:12   Like for the Mac Pro, it's a tower.

01:00:15   There's no limitations really on power consumption

01:00:18   or price or size.

01:00:21   So give it the most it can get.

01:00:23   When you're making a laptop,

01:00:24   you wanna have something that's portable,

01:00:26   presumably thin and light if you can get it there,

01:00:28   has good battery life, but other than that,

01:00:31   make it as versatile as possible.

01:00:33   This is an argument I always have with people

01:00:35   who are like, "Well, why do you need the SD card slot?

01:00:38   "I never used mine, so I'm glad they removed it."

01:00:40   (laughs)

01:00:42   These are versatile general purpose machines.

01:00:45   They should accommodate as much as possible.

01:00:48   Removing anything should not be considered a feature,

01:00:51   except weight.

01:00:52   That's the only thing that should be considered

01:00:54   a feature of removing.

01:00:55   Everything else, these should accommodate

01:00:58   as much as possible.

01:01:00   So to try to pick a few certain narrow use cases,

01:01:05   or a few certain industries, or types of quote pro users,

01:01:08   which is meaningless, to say like,

01:01:10   we're gonna optimize it, or we're gonna design it

01:01:13   to accommodate these things.

01:01:15   It makes like a spiky or peaky design,

01:01:19   instead of something that is more versatile,

01:01:21   that can accommodate a well-rounded group of things

01:01:23   people might wanna do with these computers.

01:01:26   The way to properly design computers is to cover

01:01:29   as much as possible, not as little as possible.

01:01:33   And this has been a design conflict

01:01:37   between me and Apple for a long time.

01:01:41   Well, for recent years especially.

01:01:43   I wish that the products we were getting out of Apple

01:01:45   were just more general purpose, more versatile.

01:01:49   The 2013 Mac Pro went in the other direction

01:01:53   and flopped miserably.

01:01:54   The 2013 Mac Pro is saying,

01:01:56   "Let's take all the different things people can do

01:01:57   "with the old Mac Pro towers."

01:01:59   so many different configurations possible

01:02:01   for so many different kinds of uses and priorities

01:02:03   and budgets and everything else.

01:02:05   And then they made this little trash can thing

01:02:08   that was optimized for like one use case

01:02:11   and one type of customer.

01:02:13   They replaced this incredibly versatile,

01:02:15   broad-reaching product with a very narrow one,

01:02:19   and it flopped.

01:02:21   I can make many parallels to the laptop lineup right now.

01:02:24   I hope that they have learned some lessons

01:02:29   from the 2013 Mac Pro and from the negative reactions

01:02:32   to the 2016 MacBook Pro, and I hope they're

01:02:36   gonna start giving us more broad products.

01:02:39   The iMac Pro is a pretty good start in that direction.

01:02:43   I wanna see more from the Mac Pro.

01:02:45   - So it really depends on how they're using these people,

01:02:47   'cause they don't go into that much detail.

01:02:49   Like I said, I didn't even tell you when they were formed.

01:02:51   They just said, "Oh, they're right down the hall,

01:02:52   "and yes, they're influencing the Mac Pro,"

01:02:54   and so on and so forth, but I can think of lots of good

01:02:56   users of these people.

01:02:57   This gets to my point earlier about

01:02:58   It's Apple's job to make a good product.

01:03:01   The people they consult aren't making the product,

01:03:04   aren't dictating the product design.

01:03:06   Like they're just one input and you have to know

01:03:10   what input do you actually want from these people.

01:03:13   You don't want them to just go in there

01:03:15   with a blank sheet of paper and say,

01:03:16   "Here, pros, what kind of computer

01:03:17   "would you like us to build?"

01:03:18   And they all draw a picture of their home or car

01:03:20   and then you go, "Great, we'll build that."

01:03:21   And then you build it and it's terrible,

01:03:22   no one likes it and you can't figure out

01:03:23   what you did wrong.

01:03:25   And Apple's not doing that, I'm sure.

01:03:28   But there is valuable feedback to be harvested from them,

01:03:32   to your point Marco, to make a general purpose computer

01:03:35   that doesn't have stupid limits, right?

01:03:39   So to give some examples that might sound silly,

01:03:42   but I think is hopefully exactly the kind of feedback

01:03:45   they're getting from these people.

01:03:45   For the video editor examples,

01:03:46   I'm gonna make up stuff about video editing

01:03:48   'cause I don't know anything about it, right?

01:03:49   But say the video editors say that they never put

01:03:53   their computers on their desk.

01:03:54   They always have it like underneath,

01:03:56   in like some standard cabinet or bay or something or whatever, right? And for it to be there,

01:04:03   the cords that connect from the monitor to the computer have to be some length. And they

01:04:08   could say, the last monitor you made, the cords are never long enough, so we have to

01:04:13   buy extenders and extenders are flaky. Or the, you know, the bus doesn't support cords of

01:04:19   that length and it's kind of annoying. And same deal with the input devices. Because

01:04:24   of the distances, if you just made all your chords like a foot longer, they would be so

01:04:28   much less frustrating.

01:04:30   That's valuable feedback, because it's just saying, "Look, this is how people like to

01:04:33   arrange their stuff.

01:04:35   It seems like a minor issue, but if we don't do this, if we make our chords the normal

01:04:39   length, it's going to be annoying to these people in the same way the 5-second long Final

01:04:44   Cut Pro windows is annoying.

01:04:45   Like they can get around it, the product is not dead on arrival, but it's a thing we wouldn't

01:04:51   have thought of if we hadn't talked to real people who use them in a certain situation,

01:04:56   and it's a thing we can do, it's not dictating the design of the computer, just make the

01:05:00   chords a little longer. I have to think that they had a similar type of reason for the

01:05:06   ridiculously long charger chord for the Apple Watch. You know, the chord for that thing

01:05:11   is like, well, sometimes the outlet is like behind the headboard of the bed in the middle,

01:05:16   and to reach the nightstand it has to be pretty darn long, and yeah, people can use an extension

01:05:20   but that's kind of annoying so we're just going to include a really long

01:05:25   cord stuff like that is exactly the kind of hardware feedback that you can get

01:05:33   without saying oh whatever hardware you need for your three specific specialties

01:05:40   we're just going to build something that does that and then leave someone out in

01:05:42   the cold who wants to do like MRI imaging it's like well I don't want to

01:05:44   but any of those people want I want something else entirely so they should

01:05:48   be making a general purpose flexible computer, but if they can, you know, to the goal of

01:05:54   accommodating more use cases is you have to talk to all sorts of people. These people

01:05:58   want a footlong record, these people don't want any lights in the front or you have to

01:06:01   be able to disable the lights. Stuff like that that you can just do, that when you look

01:06:06   at the whole computer, like, "Why are the cords so long and who cares about turning

01:06:10   off the lights? I certainly don't care about turning off the lights. And why does it have

01:06:12   like slots in front and in back? Or why are they on the side instead of over here?" And

01:06:17   It's like, you shrug your shoulder and say,

01:06:19   well, whatever, it's fine for me.

01:06:20   But to make a machine that accommodates

01:06:23   the most possible use cases,

01:06:25   that's worthwhile feedback on a hardware level.

01:06:28   Still, you don't want it to be the homer

01:06:29   and have everything that everybody wants

01:06:31   'cause it stops being coherent at some point.

01:06:34   But that kind of feedback and the feedback

01:06:36   I mentioned before of like,

01:06:38   please don't make something that like is cooled by gel

01:06:42   and magnetically levitates and, you know,

01:06:45   is a bunch of boxes that snap together with magnets.

01:06:48   Like, we don't, nobody wants that.

01:06:50   Like, I know you think it's cool,

01:06:53   but I can say, we as professionals talk to everybody.

01:06:56   Talk to the video editors, talk to the audio editors,

01:06:57   talk to the scientific people, nobody wants that.

01:07:00   - And the people who think it's cool,

01:07:02   they're not the ones buying macros.

01:07:04   - Exactly.

01:07:05   - They're the ones who are gonna complain

01:07:06   that they're too expensive.

01:07:07   - Right, and so I think that feedback

01:07:11   is good to get sent on the right path,

01:07:12   but after that, it's just a matter of finding out

01:07:15   all the little things that are easy for Apple to do that can go a long way. And that's perfect

01:07:21   for Apple to brag about in their presentations. And we learned that—again, I'm making up

01:07:25   all this stuff because I don't use them in this context—and we learned that in certain

01:07:28   studios people don't like to have lights. So if you want to turn off all the lights

01:07:31   on your thing, you turn them off and the audience would applaud if they also knew about this

01:07:35   whole light thing, right? That's the type of feedback I hope they're getting.

01:07:40   Is that it?

01:07:42   - For now.

01:07:43   - I don't know what to do.

01:07:46   - Don't worry, there'll be more.

01:07:47   Don't worry.

01:07:48   - Yeah, I felt like they didn't actually release

01:07:50   that much new information.

01:07:51   So all we can do is speculate.

01:07:54   Oh, and I guess related to this,

01:07:57   I don't know how I got on this topic,

01:07:58   but I was wandering YouTube looking at fancy PC towers,

01:08:02   and there are some cool ones.

01:08:07   'Cause this is sort of, I don't know,

01:08:10   Mac Pro methadone, right? I'm just I can't I don't have any news about a Mac Pro so I can just go look at other things

01:08:16   and say if the Mac Pro was like this it would be neat like I saw one recently that was a

01:08:20   Tower like a mini tower PC with no fans like passively cooled but with reasonably modern hardware in it

01:08:29   Like no fans. That is a certain appeal, doesn't it?

01:08:32   Right and you know, it obviously outperforms any Mac ever sold right because it's a PC

01:08:37   You know with it with the real video card and everything. It's not the fastest video card

01:08:42   You can get an into BC, but it was fast. I was like no fans really it wasn't even that big

01:08:47   It didn't even get that hot

01:08:49   I was like wow if Apple and this by the way Apple don't do this none of your pros are asking for no fans

01:08:54   But if if this was like an avenue of weirdness that they made like instead of making the trash can they instead decided

01:09:02   You know Steve job is still alive

01:09:04   This is the type of thing I can imagine him getting a bee in his butt about and saying,

01:09:07   "Let's try to make it with no fans."

01:09:09   He'd be like, "But Steve, nobody wants that, that—"

01:09:11   I said, "No fans."

01:09:12   Like, essentially, he did it with the original Macintosh.

01:09:14   The original Macintosh, by the way, had no fans in it, right?

01:09:17   And that's more difficult, and it got a little bit too hot inside there.

01:09:22   And they eventually put fans in the Macs.

01:09:24   Eventually they were like, "Steve, we kind of really need to put—"

01:09:26   I was like, "Fine, all right, fine, put fans in."

01:09:28   "Fine, make the RAM secretly expandable to 512 kilobytes.

01:09:30   I don't think you're ever going to need it."

01:09:32   Anyway, sometimes it's not great to listen to Steve Jobs.

01:09:34   But if they made a Mac Pro type thing where the design goal was

01:09:40   for no good reason to make it have no fans,

01:09:44   I think they could still make a good one.

01:09:46   It would be stupid.

01:09:47   It would be less flexible than having fans.

01:09:49   But put it this way, it would be better than a trash can.

01:09:51   You can make actually a pretty good conventional tower-looking

01:09:54   fanless thing that has much more flexibility than the trash

01:09:57   can, which is more of a condemnation than a trash can

01:10:00   endorsement for something that Apple could do.

01:10:02   Yeah, but to do it, it would have to be really big and really ugly things that Apple would

01:10:06   never do.

01:10:07   Not that big.

01:10:08   I'll send you a YouTube link.

01:10:10   It's smaller than a regular—it's way smaller than my cheese grater.

01:10:13   It's pretty amazing.

01:10:14   The amazing things you can do if you apply large amounts of metal and large amounts of

01:10:17   surface area.

01:10:19   So tell me—this is going to come across really snarky, and I don't mean it to—but

01:10:27   I do the same sort of thing that Marco does for a living.

01:10:31   And if you exclude gaming, I do the same sort of thing that Jon does for a living.

01:10:38   I can do my job on a MacBook, on a 15-inch MacBook Pro, on an iMac.

01:10:45   And I have done, and will continue to do, my job on any of those things.

01:10:51   There is no part of me that feels like I need or even really want a Mac Pro.

01:10:56   Because presumably if the iMac Pro is something like five grand, the Mac Pro is probably going

01:11:02   to be one and a half that, twice that, three times that.

01:11:07   I don't really understand why someone who writes code, the kind of code that the three

01:11:14   of us write anyway, why does one need a Mac Pro unless you want it to last 40 years?

01:11:22   And for Marco, you go through computers as quickly as you go through underwear, so that's

01:11:27   not a concern for you.

01:11:29   And I'll give you a cop-out, which I can't argue with, and it's that I am the most impatient

01:11:35   human alive, and damn it, I will wait as little time as possible for anything to happen on

01:11:39   my computer.

01:11:40   And that is, I don't personally think it's worth five or ten or whatever grand to be

01:11:46   that impatient, but you know, if you do, that's fine.

01:11:50   That's your math, that's your business, that's fine.

01:11:51   But do you know what I mean?

01:11:53   Like it seems kind of silly.

01:11:55   Like why does any of the three of us need a Mac Pro?

01:11:57   - Why do you need a fancy BMW to drive yourself to work?

01:12:00   You could take a moped.

01:12:02   Or you could walk.

01:12:03   - Walk would be a stretch.

01:12:06   A moped would probably end up with me dead.

01:12:08   The right answer you're looking for,

01:12:10   the right answer you're looking for is with a Chevy Volt.

01:12:12   - Yeah. - Or some other equivalent.

01:12:14   - Or just like the cheapest, you know,

01:12:15   you could get by with like, you know,

01:12:16   like the little like, you know,

01:12:18   the cheap little two-door, you know, Econobox.

01:12:20   Like, why do you have a nice car?

01:12:22   Why do you have a car that is fast?

01:12:25   As opposed to, you're like, you can still,

01:12:27   we're driving the same places, right?

01:12:29   - This car analogy definitely has some legs.

01:12:31   In fact, I'm looking-- - It has no legs,

01:12:33   it has wheels.

01:12:34   - I'm looking at an article right now from 2013

01:12:38   that has the picture of a beautiful matte finish LFA

01:12:41   at the top of it.

01:12:42   - Oh, here we go, I know exactly what you're talking about.

01:12:44   - Case for a true Mac Pro successor,

01:12:45   this is exactly the reason.

01:12:47   Because we're car guys, that's why.

01:12:48   That's why.

01:12:49   - Well, but I don't buy that, though.

01:12:50   I don't buy that.

01:12:51   - What don't you buy that?

01:12:52   - Well, I mean, it isn't a perfect analogy,

01:12:54   because there are certain capabilities

01:12:56   that higher-end computers offer you

01:12:59   that aren't necessarily always the case,

01:13:01   or always available on lower-end ones.

01:13:03   - Yeah, I was gonna say,

01:13:04   it's even more justifiable than the car thing.

01:13:06   - Yeah, exactly, but it's kinda like saying,

01:13:09   like, why get a pickup truck if you don't usually haul stuff?

01:13:14   But some people just like pickup trucks a lot,

01:13:16   and they get pleasure out of that,

01:13:18   fine, like who cares, right? And maybe sometimes they do occasionally have to haul stuff and

01:13:23   it wouldn't have fit in their Civic. Like buying more than you technically need is something

01:13:29   to consider if you're outfitting a business with 10,000 PCs. When you're an individual

01:13:34   who's a computer enthusiast and you have a little bit of extra money and you can buy

01:13:37   yourself a really nice computer, there's nothing wrong with buying more computer than you need.

01:13:43   we do the same job in a lot of ways.

01:13:47   And by the way, development is a very big and diverse field that many people have many

01:13:53   different needs.

01:13:54   And as I was spouting off on Twitter earlier about, I think the true developer computer

01:13:59   is the MacBook Pro.

01:14:01   Like the MacBook Pro is by far the more commonly used computer for developers than the Mac

01:14:05   Pro.

01:14:06   The Mac Pro is much more commonly used by non-developers for things like video farms

01:14:12   and stuff like that.

01:14:13   It's really not frequently used by software developers

01:14:16   in my knowledge and experience.

01:14:19   The MacBook Pro really is that.

01:14:22   But I could do my job on a MacBook Pro.

01:14:25   I have done my job on a MacBook Pro.

01:14:27   I spent years doing my job on MacBook Pros.

01:14:30   It's fine.

01:14:31   I'm happier and I think I'm more productive

01:14:34   and at least certain things are much faster

01:14:36   using my cool new iMac Pro.

01:14:38   Before this I used an iMac,

01:14:40   which is basically a MacBook Pro that's stationary,

01:14:43   that was also really great for years,

01:14:45   and that was good enough, but I can get a better one,

01:14:48   and I really, in the same way that you really value

01:14:51   having a nice, fast car, I really get a lot of pleasure

01:14:55   out of having a nice, fast Mac to do my work on.

01:14:58   We don't need any of these things in most senses.

01:15:02   We get them because some people really do need

01:15:05   the extra horsepower where if I was actually

01:15:08   encoding video all day and my encodes could be like four times faster than they could

01:15:14   on a MacBook Pro or on an iMac, a regular iMac, then yeah I think I could justifiably

01:15:18   say, you know, this is worth it to my job because it's saving a vast amount of time

01:15:23   throughout the day. For me the gain isn't that big between this and something a little

01:15:27   more pedestrian, but there is still a gain. Like every time I build and run in Xcode,

01:15:33   like I'm doing this a lot throughout the day and it is faster on this than it was on my

01:15:36   on my old iMac, not by hours faster,

01:15:39   it's not hours faster, but it's seconds faster,

01:15:41   and I do it a lot, so it's better.

01:15:43   This computer is able to do things,

01:15:46   basically anything I ask it to do, in near silence.

01:15:51   I have yet to hear the fan spin up.

01:15:53   I was maxing out all 10 cores the other day,

01:15:55   importing a big Lightroom import,

01:15:57   and I didn't hear the fans at all the entire time.

01:16:00   I have encoded video, I have encoded 4K video,

01:16:03   didn't hear the fans at all.

01:16:04   It's wonderful.

01:16:05   And so, none of us, or well, few of us,

01:16:09   actually quote, need these machines.

01:16:13   But, that's not to say there's not a market for them.

01:16:16   Just like nobody needs a car that can go zero to 60

01:16:19   in 2.5 seconds.

01:16:20   But there's a whole lot of people who would sure like one.

01:16:24   - I would go even further away from trying to justify it,

01:16:27   although there are definitely justifications.

01:16:29   Basically the same justifications as anybody

01:16:30   who uses a tool to do a job.

01:16:32   Like Parker was saying, you could edit video

01:16:33   a MacBook Air, but you're going to be miserable compared to if you had a bigger, faster computer

01:16:38   and if you do it for the living.

01:16:39   So anytime you do anything for the living, you want the best tools for it, even if it's

01:16:42   not a straight time is money thing.

01:16:43   So there is that justification.

01:16:45   But I think the more important thing, and the pitch I was trying to make in this old

01:16:49   article from before they introduced the trash can, was that it's important to the company

01:16:56   reach for this particular star.

01:16:59   To try to make the biggest, best, fastest, most powerful whatever.

01:17:07   They're doing that with the phone.

01:17:08   Every year they try to make the best, most powerful phone.

01:17:14   The iPhone X, it's not kind of like, "We think this is a pretty good phone.

01:17:19   It's kind of fast."

01:17:20   it's the best, fastest, coolest thing they know how to make with all the best specs.

01:17:26   It's better than everything, you know, they're always reaching for the stars there.

01:17:29   And that's a consumer product.

01:17:30   But for the pro stuff, it's, you know, the Hello Car analogy, right?

01:17:34   You're not going to make a lot of money from it, you're not going to sell a lot of them.

01:17:39   Most people don't need one, nobody needs one.

01:17:41   But having it exist, not even buying it, like, because I'm into cars, I buy Honda Accords,

01:17:47   right?

01:17:48   Just people knowing that it exists, that these cars are out there and that this is the company

01:17:55   that makes them raises the prestige of that company and is interesting from a sort of

01:18:02   human achievement perspective.

01:18:03   Yes, it's not the same as the space race, but it's similar.

01:18:08   Ferrari is out there making Ferraris, even if I never buy one.

01:18:11   Certainly I don't need one.

01:18:12   And even if I never buy one, I spend hours reading about them in magazines and looking

01:18:18   at them and get excited when I see one, and it changes my opinion of what cars can be.

01:18:25   And it gives me a different view of Ferrari than if they just made SUVs.

01:18:31   And Apple, I think, should always continue to push up against this envelope, regardless

01:18:37   of how many people buy it, just because for the same reason I use the Viper in the thing

01:18:42   because it was a direct quote from a magazine I'd been reading where the car guys wanted

01:18:45   to make the Viper because it's cool essentially and they're into cars and the people who deal

01:18:50   with the money are like, "Why would you ever make that?

01:18:52   It's a terrible idea.

01:18:53   It's not going to make you money and it's stupid and no one's going to buy one."

01:18:58   But that's bad decision making.

01:19:00   So again, your question Casey was, "Why do you want to get a Mac Pro?"

01:19:05   But I would take it even farther back and say, "Why do you care if a Mac Pro exists

01:19:08   if you're not going to buy one?"

01:19:10   And I do.

01:19:11   I care that for our existing though I'm never going to get one and I care that the Mac Pro

01:19:14   exist even if I wasn't gonna buy one but I totally am probably and I want Apple

01:19:20   to be reaching for the stars pushing the limits you know going farther and faster

01:19:27   than they've ever gone before and I want them to keep pushing that because I

01:19:31   think that an Apple that does that is an Apple that makes better products

01:19:36   overall yeah I don't debate that Apple needs to reach for this it's just again

01:19:42   like you neither of you has to answer to me and

01:19:45   You know, I'm not the boss of you and you can do it just because damn it

01:19:50   I want to and that's a perfectly acceptable reason but I look at my what is it like two-year-old iMac right now and

01:19:57   When I write code on this thing

01:19:59   Like the screen is beautiful with the exception of a little bit of burnin the screen is beautiful

01:20:04   It's still two years on feels crazy fast

01:20:08   Like I don't feel like I'm waiting for more than a moment for anything when it comes to development

01:20:13   And obviously if I'm doing trans codes or something like that, that's a different discussion

01:20:16   Yeah, occasionally the fans spin up, but I'm I'm okay with that

01:20:20   I know that makes me a monster, but I'm okay with hearing a fan from time to time

01:20:24   And I look at the iMac Pro and then I look at the Mac Pro and I feel like there are on

01:20:33   paper anyway

01:20:35   deeply diminishing returns for both. To me, it's like, yeah, okay, if you're gonna use the car

01:20:40   analogy, like, yes, I spent a bit more to have a nicer experience when I drive two miles to and

01:20:48   from work each day. 100%. And on the surface, it's not really that different from what either

01:20:54   you guys are talking about. But I feel like what we're, a more apt analogy is like, well,

01:21:01   Why did you get the regular Ferrari instead of the hyper lightweight Ferrari?

01:21:07   You know, like, or it's such diminishing returns. Why even bother? Or maybe a more apt analogy would be,

01:21:15   you know, a Hellcat will get you somewhere just as quick as a Ferrari will.

01:21:19   As long as there are no turns.

01:21:21   As long as there are no turns. But I mean, I guess this analogy is falling apart as well.

01:21:23   It's just, it seems like it's way more money to get you not that much more speed.

01:21:30   That's true of your BMW too, over my Accord.

01:21:33   Over your Accord it's considerably more speed over brand new Accords.

01:21:36   No, it's not.

01:21:37   Not proportional to the money.

01:21:39   It's always diminishing returns you get up to the top.

01:21:41   It's always.

01:21:42   By the way, if you're doing parallel tasks, it actually is that much more speed.

01:21:46   Yeah, don't go back to the practical justifications.

01:21:50   I think a totally impractical justification alone would be worth it, but there are in

01:21:54   fact actual practical justifications for it.

01:21:57   It's just, it's, again, like you don't have to answer me and I'll let it go.

01:22:00   It's just, it's really hard for me to understand why any human who lives in Xcode needs a MacPro.

01:22:06   Like, I can see Final Cut, I can see Lightroom.

01:22:08   Marco, you brought up Lightroom earlier.

01:22:10   I can make a pretty good argument that Lightroom could justify a MacPro, but for someone who

01:22:16   lives and breathes Xcode, or even more, like, you know, 90-year-old programming languages

01:22:22   like Perl, I don't get why one would want a MacPro.

01:22:27   And I'll let it go.

01:22:28   It's just, it's weird to me.

01:22:29   and Swift? Yeah. You should be dying for a Mac Pro. It's not that bad. It's not that

01:22:35   bad. I mean, the gaming angle that you mentioned before though actually is one of the more

01:22:38   relevant practical ones because if you really want a Mac, like, they force you to buy this

01:22:46   gigantic incredibly expensive thing just to get the good GPU. I mean, the Mac Pro is a

01:22:52   good GPU, but presumably this one will have a better one. And so if you really are stuck

01:22:55   on a Mac and you really want to play games on it, which people say, "Why would you

01:23:00   even want to just get a gaming PC?"

01:23:02   Blah, blah, blah.

01:23:05   We are oddballs who understand that.

01:23:07   We have to explain the practical reasons why people want them.

01:23:12   That's what all those pros are doing.

01:23:13   If you do it for a living and it will make whatever you're doing twice as fast or twice

01:23:17   as reliable at the same speed, then that's the reason to get them.

01:23:23   It's the reason professionals buy professional stuff, period.

01:23:26   Like, snap-on tools.

01:23:27   Why do they cost so much more than craftsmen?

01:23:28   Are they that much better?

01:23:29   No, they're not that much better, but they're better.

01:23:32   And if all you do all day is turn a wrench, get a good one.

01:23:35   Well, but on top of that, they also had a ridiculous warranty, did they not?

01:23:40   Craftsmen used to be guaranteed for life.

01:23:42   Guaranteed forever before Sears went out of business or whatever.

01:23:45   That's true.

01:23:46   I don't know.

01:23:47   I'll let it go, but it's an odd thing to me.

01:23:49   Again, I am 150% on board with Apple pursuing this.

01:23:53   I completely agree with you.

01:23:55   And again, gaming is a pretty good reason.

01:23:57   Because I friggin' want to, leave me alone, Casey is a good reason, which is what I'm

01:24:00   mostly hearing.

01:24:01   Lightroom is a good reason.

01:24:03   But if you're just living in Xcode or Terminal or Visual Studio Code or what have you, it

01:24:06   seems a little weird.

01:24:07   Well, I mean, this is my home computer, though.

01:24:08   I'm not getting it for work, you realize.

01:24:09   Like I would never be able to justify to work why they should get me a Mac Pro.

01:24:12   I can't even justify work for them to get me an iMac, for crying out loud, or just get

01:24:15   me a stupid laptop, right?

01:24:16   But for home, it's totally like, it's a hobby computer.

01:24:19   Like it's the same, you know.

01:24:21   If you had a taxi business, you're like, "How can you justify a BMW for your taxis?"

01:24:23   Like, "Don't.

01:24:24   It's going to break down and cost you too much money.

01:24:25   Like, get a Toyota for your taxi."

01:24:27   But for your home car, I get a BMW because I like cars.

01:24:32   We are sponsored this week by Betterment.

01:24:34   Get up to one year managed free.

01:24:36   For more information, visit betterment.com/atp.

01:24:39   Betterment is the largest online financial advisor designed to help you build wealth,

01:24:44   plan for retirement, and achieve your financial goals.

01:24:47   So put simply, Betterment's mission is to help customers make the most of your money.

01:24:52   They do this by taking complex investing strategies and use technology to deliver them to everyone

01:24:57   and to make them more efficient.

01:24:58   They also provide access to unlimited personalized advice from licensed experts when you need

01:25:03   it.

01:25:04   It's tax season, which means this is a great time to think about your finances as a whole.

01:25:08   Are you ready for all the deadlines?

01:25:09   Are you saving as much on taxes as you can?

01:25:11   And are there any accounts that could be working harder for you?

01:25:15   For instance, if you have an old 401k sitting around, high fees on that can really put a

01:25:19   damper on your savings.

01:25:20   According to an independent study done on average 401k fees, rolling over to a Betterment

01:25:24   IRA could mean 60% lower fees, and that really could add up over time.

01:25:29   Betterment is a modern solution to an age-old problem, how to save for a better retirement.

01:25:34   Their licensed experts will help you develop a personalized plan to make sure you have

01:25:38   the retirement you deserve.

01:25:40   And are you on track for this?

01:25:42   You can find out with Betterment.

01:25:43   They host a suite of tools to help you know whether you're on track to hit your savings

01:25:47   or investing goals.

01:25:49   And when you need it, their tools and guidance can help get you on track.

01:25:52   Roll over today to one of their IRAs and you can get up to one year managed free.

01:25:57   Investing involves risk.

01:25:58   ATP listeners can get up to one year managed free.

01:26:00   For more information, visit betterment.com/ATP.

01:26:04   That's betterment.com/ATP.

01:26:05   Betterment, rethink what your money can do.

01:26:08   (upbeat music)

01:26:12   - Alright, let's do some Ask ATP.

01:26:14   We have a twofer with regard to evil addicting juice.

01:26:18   Bosemonkrief writes, "Hey Marco,

01:26:20   "what's your go-to hand grinder for those of us

01:26:22   "who don't want your fancy powered

01:26:23   "instant coffee tubes for travel?"

01:26:26   - Hand grinding, hmm, I've had two, both Hario.

01:26:30   First like the skinny one, I forget what it's called,

01:26:33   and then I later got the kind of stubbier one,

01:26:36   which is called the Skirtin.

01:26:38   I cannot recommend either of them really.

01:26:42   If you insist on hand grinding coffee,

01:26:45   the Hario Skirtin is the much better one.

01:26:48   The little skinnier one, it was useless.

01:26:51   It was very hard to get anything out of it.

01:26:53   The Skirtin is bulkier but substantially faster.

01:26:57   The problem is, there's a reason why coffee grinders

01:27:00   are all electric, because you need to do a lot

01:27:04   of hand cranking to really get a meaningful amount of coffee

01:27:07   especially if you're doing something

01:27:09   that needs a finer grind like an AeroPress.

01:27:12   This is one of the many reasons why I decided

01:27:15   after only like one or two tries

01:27:17   that travel copy setups are not for me.

01:27:21   So the only thing I can say is

01:27:23   please try not to do this at all,

01:27:26   but if you're going to do it,

01:27:28   the Hario Skurchen is the one to get.

01:27:30   - And additionally, Doggo Boy would like to know

01:27:33   what's your coffee setup like?

01:27:35   I just found out that you like coffee.

01:27:37   - How do you just find out that Marco likes coffee?

01:27:39   - Yeah, perfect.

01:27:40   - His blood is coffee at this point.

01:27:41   - It is alright.

01:27:42   - Anyway, I just found out you like coffee

01:27:43   and would like to know more about your setup.

01:27:45   (laughing)

01:27:47   - Yeah, alright, so basically I'm a crazy coffee enthusiast.

01:27:52   If you think I care a lot about MacBook keyboards,

01:27:55   you haven't seen me try to make or brew coffee.

01:27:59   I'm a home roaster.

01:28:00   I roast my own coffee on a hot top roaster.

01:28:05   I get the unroasted beans from Sweet Maria's.

01:28:08   I tend to get Kenya beans the vast majority of the time.

01:28:10   It's my favorite bean.

01:28:12   Sweet Maria's is the best resource I've ever seen

01:28:14   for not only getting unroasted beans,

01:28:17   but getting roasters and learning how to use them.

01:28:19   So I highly suggest SweetMaria's.com.

01:28:22   They've been doing this for a very long time,

01:28:24   and they've been wonderful.

01:28:25   And if you're going to start out on a coffee roaster,

01:28:27   you can start with a cheap Air Popper,

01:28:29   or the Baymore 1300, I think, or 1600.

01:28:33   Yeah, that's the one I had first.

01:28:35   It's decent.

01:28:36   The hot top is about three times the price,

01:28:39   but is three times better.

01:28:42   So it's up to you how you wanna deal with that.

01:28:44   But home roasting is something that nobody should really do,

01:28:49   but I do it, 'cause I care a lot about things

01:28:53   that most people don't care a lot about,

01:28:54   and I'm very happy with that, and I'm content with that.

01:28:56   So that being said, when I'm out, I mentioned last time

01:29:00   I've been recently trying these cool new Sudden Coffee,

01:29:04   instant coffee things, like when I'm traveling

01:29:06   or on an airplane or something.

01:29:08   Sudden Coffee is surprisingly good.

01:29:10   I also, in the meantime, have been recommended

01:29:12   two other ones, Wala, spelled like Viola,

01:29:16   you know, Wala Coffee, and Swift Cup Coffee,

01:29:19   both of which are also kind of pricey,

01:29:22   high-end instant coffee packets.

01:29:26   Both of them are good.

01:29:27   Swift Cup, I think, might be my favorite of all three.

01:29:30   so far. I have to try a little bit more of it, but I'm very impressed by the Swift cup

01:29:34   flavor. But sodden coffee is actually more practical because you can use the tube as

01:29:38   a stirrer, which is nice. Anyway, at home, when I'm using my home roasted beans, I grind

01:29:46   them with a Baratza Virtuoso and I put them in an AeroPress. And I use a fairly imprecise

01:29:53   inverted AeroPress method. And I use an electric kettle to pour hot water into it. That's about

01:29:59   - I love it, that's my coffee setup.

01:30:01   I pour, I press the coffee into a mug,

01:30:04   and then I drink it.

01:30:06   Usually I'm making coffee for me and TIFF at the same time,

01:30:09   so I use two AeroPresses in parallel, one in each hand,

01:30:13   and it's totally fine.

01:30:14   I've tried pretty much every way I know of to brew coffee.

01:30:19   I've tried French presses, drip pots,

01:30:24   good drip pots, bad drip pots.

01:30:26   - Butter.

01:30:27   I have tried the butter, that's terrible.

01:30:30   I have tried the, what's the big expense,

01:30:33   oh the Clover machine, I've tried the Clover machine

01:30:35   both at a real coffee shop and then later at Starbucks.

01:30:38   I've tried lots of different brew,

01:30:40   I've tried a vacuum brewer.

01:30:42   I have tried so many different ways to brew coffee.

01:30:44   And what it comes down to is the best way to brew

01:30:48   one cup of coffee or two if you're willing to operate

01:30:50   two in parallel is the AeroPress.

01:30:53   The best way to brew more than that is the Herio V60

01:30:56   pour over cone into whatever vessel you feel like.

01:30:59   That's it.

01:31:01   - All right, Bryce Minty would like to know,

01:31:03   "You know, I'm finally getting around

01:31:04   to replacing that awful Fios set-top box at my house.

01:31:07   Which TiVo are you using, Jon?

01:31:09   I'm not sure if the $750 for a new Bolt

01:31:11   in lifetime service is really worth it."

01:31:13   - Kind of like Apple's laptops,

01:31:16   TiVo line is not in a great place right now.

01:31:18   (Jon laughs)

01:31:20   All of their newest machines are using

01:31:23   this incredibly stupid bent box design, like it looks like a regular set-top box, I'd imagine

01:31:28   you bent it, like not even in the middle, so it makes this kind of like weird inverted

01:31:33   V shape.

01:31:35   The bend is stupid and you can't stack stuff on top of it, but worse than the bend, much

01:31:39   worse, is the fact that the thing is very small and so they have a, you know, low diameter

01:31:46   fan in it that has to spin very fast and makes a very annoying high-pitched noise.

01:31:50   So all of the bent box TiVo's are noisier than the much larger flat box TiVo's that

01:31:57   they replaced.

01:31:58   Which is a shame because the top end TiVo, the top end bent box TiVo, I have one that,

01:32:04   well, actually it's not a top end anymore now that I have that box thing, but I think

01:32:08   it's basically the same except for voice control.

01:32:10   They are otherwise very good.

01:32:13   They are fast, they're small.

01:32:17   The interface has not been entirely ruined by this new interface that they're trying

01:32:21   to roll out.

01:32:22   I still haven't gotten the new interface, which looks pretty gross, but the old one

01:32:25   is good.

01:32:26   Like, it is a good product, it is a good TiVo, except for the fact that the box is bent and

01:32:30   it makes lots of noise.

01:32:32   If you can find a Romeo Pro, which I also have one of, it is not quite as fancy as the

01:32:39   latest bent box ones, but it's still plenty fast.

01:32:41   It is way bigger, ridiculously bigger, which is kind of a shame, but it is quieter.

01:32:47   So there is no perfect TiVo to get.

01:32:50   I would say that if you have like an entertainment center

01:32:52   or someplace where you're not gonna hear the fan

01:32:54   or you don't care about fan noises or whatever,

01:32:57   then the stupid vent box, top of the line TiVos

01:33:00   are still pretty good TiVos.

01:33:01   But if you care about the noise or wanna save some money,

01:33:04   look into a Romeo Pro if you can find one

01:33:07   because they are much more conventional

01:33:09   and straightforward and flat and slightly quieter.

01:33:12   - Excellent.

01:33:13   And finally, KG writes,

01:33:15   What kind of clipboard management apps are you using, if any, on your Macs?

01:33:19   I use Alfred as my both app launcher as well as, you know, kind of do everything machine,

01:33:25   and it includes some very basic clipboard, like history and management and stuff like

01:33:29   that.

01:33:30   That has been great.

01:33:32   It is exactly what I want and nothing more.

01:33:36   And that has worked really well for me.

01:33:38   I did beta test PasteBot, which is by the same folks that do TweetBot and NetBot, RIP.

01:33:47   And that was really good, but more powerful than what I personally wanted.

01:33:53   It can do things like filter or modify what you've copied.

01:33:59   And maybe if I spent the time, I would end up deciding, "Oh, I actually really do like

01:34:02   this."

01:34:03   For my needs, it was overkill

01:34:06   for what I'm looking for from it.

01:34:08   Marco, do you have any sort of clipboard management setup?

01:34:11   - Yeah, I actually really, really love clipboard management.

01:34:16   I came fairly late to it.

01:34:18   I think I was most of the way through my job at Tumblr

01:34:21   before I started using Clipboard Manager,

01:34:23   and I wish I had done it earlier once I got into it,

01:34:25   because programming and just general computer use,

01:34:28   there is a lot of opportunities to stack up

01:34:32   a couple things in the clipboard

01:34:33   and then paste them down somewhere.

01:34:35   It's the kind of thing like having multiple clipboards

01:34:38   or multiple levels to a stacked clipboard

01:34:41   is really, really nice in so many types of work on computers

01:34:46   and it's one of the biggest things that I think,

01:34:48   it's kind of a shame that iOS not only doesn't have it

01:34:50   but probably never will have it.

01:34:52   When you're working on iOS,

01:34:53   it's one of the biggest things I miss.

01:34:54   But I've tried a lot of them.

01:34:58   I think I've tried almost all of them.

01:35:00   I started out on one called Jumpcut

01:35:02   which was just a clipboard manager,

01:35:03   it was open source back forever ago,

01:35:05   I don't know where it is now.

01:35:07   And then I later moved on to Launch Bar.

01:35:11   And I've also, back in the day,

01:35:13   I used Quicksilver as my fast launcher,

01:35:15   then for a while I just did Spotlight as the launcher,

01:35:17   as an almost fast launcher,

01:35:20   and then Launch Bar kind of combines everything

01:35:22   into one app for me.

01:35:23   It is a super fast launcher

01:35:24   and also my favorite clipboard manager.

01:35:27   And I know Alfred, and there's a bunch of other ones

01:35:31   out there now, I'm sure they're all great.

01:35:33   Just Launch Bar happens to be the one that meshed best

01:35:36   with me and the way I like it to work and the way I like

01:35:40   it to look and behave and everything else.

01:35:41   So I use Launch Bar for that and kind of like what you said

01:35:45   Casey, I'm a heavy but shallow user of it.

01:35:49   - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:35:51   - I use it constantly, I heavily use, I use the crap

01:35:55   out of it, but I only scrape the surface

01:35:58   of the available features.

01:36:00   I literally only use it to launch apps,

01:36:04   find emoji to paste into things,

01:36:06   which is a fairly recent thing,

01:36:08   and use multiple clipboards.

01:36:10   That's it.

01:36:10   I don't do anything where you can hit a different key

01:36:13   and send it to another workflow or send it to a script

01:36:15   or capitalize it in this way.

01:36:16   I don't do any of that.

01:36:17   It's only an app launcher and a clipboard manager for me.

01:36:22   Whatever it costs, I think it's like 40 or 50 bucks,

01:36:25   whatever it costs, it's totally worth it just for that

01:36:27   because it is such an incredible part of my workflow

01:36:31   doing pretty much everything

01:36:33   because of that clipboard manager.

01:36:34   It's so good.

01:36:35   That being said, if you don't wanna spend that much,

01:36:36   there are alternatives, as both of us said.

01:36:39   But I highly suggest,

01:36:41   whatever clipboard manager you end up with,

01:36:44   if you don't use one, try one.

01:36:47   If you do anything on a Mac ever, try a clipboard manager.

01:36:51   Because once you get into the habit,

01:36:53   it's like, so much of modern work is copying

01:36:56   and pasting stuff from one place to another.

01:36:58   And it's so nice to be able to copy three things

01:37:02   and then go to the other app and paste one,

01:37:05   paste two, paste three.

01:37:06   Like to not have to go back and forth so much,

01:37:09   it's such a revolution in how you use your clipboard.

01:37:13   You will wonder how anything ever doesn't use,

01:37:16   like how anyone gets around not using a clipboard.

01:37:19   It's almost as big of a change as having a clipboard

01:37:22   versus not having a clipboard.

01:37:23   Like the very first time you were,

01:37:25   like when we were all learning how to use computers,

01:37:28   that first time you discovered the clipboard

01:37:30   and that you could copy and paste things,

01:37:32   like it's almost that big of a deal

01:37:35   once you can have like a little history or a stack.

01:37:39   - Jon?

01:37:40   - So I used Jumpcut for years

01:37:42   'cause I just wanted basic functionality

01:37:44   and now I use Pacespot

01:37:47   and I don't use much of the fancy functionality

01:37:49   but like Jumpcut was fine

01:37:50   but Pacespot just has a little bit more polish,

01:37:52   you know, like all the bot things, it's just nicer.

01:37:55   So I would gladly pay for it to have a polish

01:37:57   and hopefully more well supported thing of this.

01:38:00   Marco covered most of the benefits of a clipboard manager.

01:38:05   Let me tell you about a couple of the dangers.

01:38:08   One danger, as Marco pointed out,

01:38:09   is that it will change your mental model

01:38:12   of how computers work.

01:38:13   And I've done this a couple of times

01:38:15   where I've been on someone else's computer.

01:38:16   Even just like on my wife's computer

01:38:18   or in one of my kid's accounts

01:38:20   where they don't run a clipboard manager,

01:38:21   Like it's the same computer, but they don't have,

01:38:23   they don't run Payspot or whatever.

01:38:25   And I will be doing stuff in the computer

01:38:28   and I will not, I will realize way too late

01:38:32   that I just thought I was queuing up three things

01:38:34   in the clipboard.

01:38:35   And in reality, I was just overwriting things

01:38:38   in the clipboard.

01:38:39   And all the things except for the most recent one

01:38:42   don't exist anywhere else.

01:38:44   Like I will like copy something out of a document,

01:38:47   close the document without saving it,

01:38:48   go to another document, copy something out,

01:38:50   close it without saving it.

01:38:51   and then copy another thing and then go to the destination

01:38:54   expecting to paste in all three of those things.

01:38:55   And guess what?

01:38:56   Two of them are gone, like gone, gone,

01:38:58   like as in data loss gone,

01:39:00   as in I didn't write them down anywhere and they're gone.

01:39:02   Why?

01:39:02   'Cause my mental model is that copy and paste is like a queue

01:39:05   and it's not, it's just one place and that makes me sad.

01:39:08   The other thing is some of these clipboard managers

01:39:10   have a way to synchronize your clippings

01:39:12   either like through iCloud

01:39:14   or across other machines or whatever.

01:39:18   And applications also have a way to blacklist something.

01:39:22   And those two features should make a tickle in your mind

01:39:25   because one of the things that I think they put

01:39:27   in the blacklist by default is like key chain access

01:39:29   or one password.

01:39:31   Yeah, if you copy and paste the password

01:39:34   and have any kind of cloud synchronization on

01:39:36   and don't have that app blacklisted, guess what?

01:39:38   You just spread your unencrypted password

01:39:40   to or possibly encrypted.

01:39:42   Either way, you just spread your password

01:39:43   to cloud storage and possibly to other computers

01:39:45   that you may or may not control.

01:39:47   So be careful with your clipboard manager.

01:39:50   The good ones have tools for you to not have that happen.

01:39:54   You have to use those tools,

01:39:55   which is kind of the reason I can imagine

01:39:57   why Apple doesn't build this in, right?

01:39:59   It's like, why doesn't Apple just build

01:39:59   in multiple clipboards?

01:40:00   They put a clock in the menu bar after all.

01:40:03   That's a pretty old reference there,

01:40:04   but they've done so many things since then.

01:40:08   There are dangers to this.

01:40:10   And I'm not sure which is the worst,

01:40:11   the possible security danger or the fact

01:40:14   that you get so used to it

01:40:15   that trying to use a computer without it,

01:40:17   the computer feels broken.

01:40:18   - Yeah, those are bad reasons.

01:40:21   (laughing)

01:40:22   - Like I'm saying, I'm not saying that's the reason

01:40:24   you shouldn't use it, like I will use it forever.

01:40:26   Like I have to use it, like I can't go back.

01:40:29   - Yeah, right, exactly.

01:40:30   - But just keep in mind that once you get on board

01:40:33   this train, which you should get on board and it's good,

01:40:35   keep those other things in mind.

01:40:36   When you're using a foreign computer,

01:40:38   keep in mind that the clipboard is no longer a queue

01:40:41   and just disable the synchronization thing

01:40:43   if you don't wanna use it.

01:40:43   Like that's the easiest solution to that.

01:40:44   Like, do you really care that your clipboard

01:40:46   is synchronized across whatever?

01:40:47   If you don't, just turn that stuff off.

01:40:48   - I have never used any kind of syncing like that.

01:40:51   Like, that to me sounds like a recipe for pain.

01:40:55   - So Apple does that with iOS and the Mac now, right?

01:40:58   The Share Clipboard?

01:40:59   - Yeah, and it works like 70% of the time.

01:41:01   - Yeah, I know, that's why you don't have to worry

01:41:03   about an Apple, 'cause their syncing never actually works,

01:41:04   so your Passport won't actually sync across it.

01:41:06   - Or you hit paste on the other device,

01:41:08   and it just blocks for like eight seconds

01:41:11   while it tries to figure out

01:41:12   what the heck it should be pasting.

01:41:15   - Delightful.

01:41:16   - Between that and drag and drop, it's like, man,

01:41:18   everything on iOS is made slower by progress.

01:41:21   - Yep, and another thing to configure is that

01:41:24   most of these clipboard history apps have a way for you

01:41:26   to limit the size of things.

01:41:28   If you, like me, occasionally find yourself copying

01:41:30   and pasting 500 megabytes of text

01:41:32   from your awesome text editor,

01:41:33   you don't really don't want your clipboard manager

01:41:37   to be like, oh, let me hold onto that 500 megs for you.

01:41:40   That's so that most of them have a threshold to say,

01:41:42   Look, if it's bigger than 50 megs, just let that one slide.

01:41:46   I'm not gonna be, I don't wanna paste that an hour from now.

01:41:49   All right, thanks to our sponsors this week,

01:41:51   Betterment, HelloFresh, and Molekule.

01:41:53   And we'll see you next week.

01:41:55   (upbeat music)

01:41:58   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

01:42:00   ♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

01:42:02   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:42:05   ♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪

01:42:08   ♪ John didn't do any research ♪

01:42:10   Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

01:42:13   'Cause it was accidental

01:42:15   (It was accidental)

01:42:16   It was accidental

01:42:17   (Accidental)

01:42:18   And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM

01:42:24   And if you're into Twitter

01:42:26   You can follow them

01:42:28   @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

01:42:32   So that's Casey List M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:42:37   Anti Marco Armin S-I-R-A-C

01:42:42   U-S-A-C-R-A-Q-S-A

01:42:44   It's accidental (It's accidental)

01:42:47   They didn't mean to

01:42:50   Accidental (Accidental)

01:42:52   Tech podcast so long

01:42:57   I was, I, I've been, more things I've been looking at on YouTube

01:43:00   I'm looking at YouTube videos

01:43:02   Uh, I, where did I find it?

01:43:05   Some video that was talking about straight cut gears and race transmissions and why they're better

01:43:09   I was so frustrated at the video not explaining to me why that adequately explained to me why they're better that I was just like

01:43:15   Googling for like race transmission straight cut gears on YouTube. I'm like, what does YouTube think of?

01:43:19   Well, yeah, I don't know how I ended up here. But then I ended up in on this rat hole of like explainer

01:43:24   technology explainer videos and I found a lot of them very frustrating like

01:43:31   popular videos that are very poor quality like you start going into the the dark corner of YouTube is the

01:43:37   Completely incorrect bogus how planes fly videos

01:43:41   right, it's kind of like I feel like that, you know, the the conspiracy theories about how the earth is flat and stuff and like

01:43:47   Kids are finding them like kids. Don't watch this video. That's not how planes fly and

01:43:50   There are videos out there explaining why all the other videos telling you how planes fly are wrong

01:43:55   But I don't they're not as high in the search results as the bogus one. It's very upsetting

01:44:00   Anyway, uh, that's like both a fun corner of YouTube, technology explainer videos, but

01:44:06   also just filled with garbage. Like, really bad low-res computer animations that they

01:44:11   probably didn't make with like a computer voice talking over it, like the old Fred voice,

01:44:16   not like Siri, but like the old Fred voice talking over it. Like they couldn't even get

01:44:20   a human-- I guess these might be machine-generated, I don't know. Or from, like, yeah, I don't

01:44:27   understand it, I don't understand who's watching them, but they seem to have like, they come

01:44:31   up high in the search results. I wish I could like vote them down and say, "Hide this and

01:44:35   never let another human see it because it's bad." But they're good ones. So you remember

01:44:39   the classic good one is like, I think we've all seen this, that one from the 50s or the

01:44:44   60s explaining how like a transmission works. Or that was, I forget what it was explaining,

01:44:48   it was like from GM or something. And it's like that black and white, it's kind of like

01:44:52   strip from school in the 60s, but it was the first thing that I ever saw that explained

01:44:58   to me how a traditional gear differential works.

01:45:03   Despite having assembled and used many of them on remote control cars, it never quite

01:45:07   clicked in my brain.

01:45:08   It's like, "Yeah, but how did this work?"

01:45:10   And this one did it from first principles with like Tinker Toys.

01:45:13   I'm like, "Oh, now I get it."

01:45:16   And it finally all came together.

01:45:17   I'm like, "This is how every engineer explained it."

01:45:18   I gotta go find that one.

01:45:19   [BEEPING]