267: I Slowly Ate the Crystals


00:00:00   So how was the trip? Did we talk about this publicly? I don't know that we did. Are we

00:00:03   talking about this publicly, whether or not it makes the show?

00:00:05   The only thing that made the show was the walkie-talkie bit.

00:00:08   Okay.

00:00:09   Where John was making fun of me for buying walkie-talkies for a road trip.

00:00:12   Yeah, I do want to hear about that, but not this minute. But how was the other parts of

00:00:17   the trip, just out of curiosity?

00:00:19   No, I ate way too many combos.

00:00:22   Did you enjoy all your good roadside coffee, or did you bring a gigantic thermos of good

00:00:27   coffee with you?

00:00:28   - I brought, oh you're gonna make so much fun of me.

00:00:31   Have I mentioned this before?

00:00:32   I have a, oh God, I have a monthly subscription

00:00:36   to a fancy hipster instant coffee thing from San Francisco.

00:00:41   - Why?

00:00:42   - I get eight little tubes of instant coffee powder a month,

00:00:46   delivered in a little canvas bag,

00:00:49   and they cost like a dollar fifty each,

00:00:51   it's a subscription, and it's instant coffee.

00:00:55   You dump it into water and it makes good coffee.

00:00:57   It's basically a really good version of instant coffee,

00:01:00   and it turns out instant coffee got popular

00:01:03   for very good reasons.

00:01:04   It's pretty damn convenient when you're traveling.

00:01:06   You know, like on the plane,

00:01:07   I got a cup of hot water, please,

00:01:08   and I got a hot water cup, and I dumped my coffee into it,

00:01:11   and stirred it up, and had my insufferable hipster coffee

00:01:15   right there on the plane.

00:01:16   It was wonderful.

00:01:18   - You would.

00:01:18   - I'm so sorry.

00:01:19   For anybody who cares, it's Sudden Coffee.

00:01:20   That's the name of it.

00:01:22   Because it's not instant, it's sudden.

00:01:23   Ha ha.

00:01:24   (laughing)

00:01:25   - It sounds like it surprises you.

00:01:28   You go to drink a cup of water

00:01:29   and all of a sudden it's brown and bitter.

00:01:30   What the hell?

00:01:31   (laughing)

00:01:32   It's sudden coffee.

00:01:33   - Holy shit, it's coffee.

00:01:34   - Whoa.

00:01:34   (laughing)

00:01:36   How did that get there?

00:01:37   (laughing)

00:01:38   - Where the hell did this come from?

00:01:40   - Anyway, it's not cheap but it's pretty good

00:01:41   if anybody needs this kind of thing.

00:01:43   It's pretty good.

00:01:44   - That's pretty much your motto.

00:01:46   It's not cheap but it's good.

00:01:47   - This is why anybody listening is probably like,

00:01:50   of course I have that.

00:01:51   This surprises nobody.

00:01:53   - This is surprising.

00:01:53   This is surprising.

00:01:54   - I thought you were gonna say you had like the

00:01:56   underscore kit where you have this entire

00:01:58   bunch of paraphernalia that you'd take out in the car,

00:02:01   including a little table lap desk to set it all up on.

00:02:04   And then plug in a kettle into the 12 volt socket

00:02:07   in the car and just, you know.

00:02:09   - I used to do that kind of like fancy, you know,

00:02:12   I brought my air press on a couple of trips.

00:02:14   And it was just such a pain.

00:02:16   I got like a travel grinder and everything like it.

00:02:18   And I just, I found it not worth the hassle.

00:02:22   And so instead, for a while I would just drink tea on trips,

00:02:26   I'd bring my own fancy tea bags,

00:02:27   but I don't like tea that much and coffee's better.

00:02:30   And so I found this and I decided,

00:02:33   oh, even though it's a subscription which I don't like,

00:02:36   I'm like, well, I'll try it, I'll see how it is.

00:02:38   And it's been good enough that I've kept it up.

00:02:41   Like I use it.

00:02:42   I don't always use it regularly.

00:02:44   Like sometimes I'll accumulate a couple extras

00:02:47   that I haven't used in the last month,

00:02:48   but it's fantastic for road trips.

00:02:51   Sometimes I'll just tear up one of those tubes and dump it in his mouth. He doesn't care.

00:02:54   I actually did that once.

00:02:55   [Laughter]

00:02:57   Okay, nice to my face!

00:02:58   I was on a road trip and I didn't want to stop to get like a cup of hot water.

00:03:02   Because there was no good place nearby to do that.

00:03:05   So I just kind of slowly ate the crystals.

00:03:07   [Laughter]

00:03:08   Oh my god.

00:03:09   It tasted fine.

00:03:10   Just a little strong.

00:03:11   That's really sad.

00:03:12   Someone draw a comic of that.

00:03:13   How come people never draw comics for our show?

00:03:15   Someone needs to draw a comic of Sad Marco eating the instant coffee, hipster instant coffee out of the tube.

00:03:20   Maybe a little tear, a tear going down his side of his face.

00:03:23   Yeah, driving on the Long Island Expressway.

00:03:25   That was another reason for a tear.

00:03:27   Yeah.

00:03:28   Stuck in traffic.

00:03:29   All right, let's start with some follow-up.

00:03:31   John, tell me about Breath of the Wild on the Wii U.

00:03:35   Last week, why were we talking about it?

00:03:36   Oh, we were talking about bitness of consoles was one of the Ask ATP questions, and I was

00:03:40   talking about how power still makes a difference in the modern era.

00:03:43   I'm talking about a game like Breath of the Wild, which is a large open world Zelda game,

00:03:47   how you couldn't play it on a less powerful console, and I said the Wii U, and I should

00:03:52   have just said the Wii, because obviously, in the grand tradition, I guess two data points

00:03:56   makes a tradition, of Zelda games that are initially developed for one console, but take

00:04:01   so long to get done that the second console comes out, and then they launch it on both

00:04:06   consoles simultaneously.

00:04:08   That was the case with Breath of the Wild.

00:04:10   It was actually developed for the Wii U, and only later launched on the Switch, and that

00:04:15   happened with Twilight Princess for the GameCube and the Wii. Although Twilight Princess, I

00:04:20   highly recommend playing it on the GameCube, not on the Wii because the motion controls

00:04:23   are not very good. So a surprisingly small number of people sent in that correction,

00:04:30   but to the people who did, good job.

00:04:32   And to everyone else, Jon is disappointed in you.

00:04:35   Yeah, seriously. Pretty big gaffe in the grand scheme of things. Maybe if it was about Apple

00:04:41   stuff, we would have gotten more people.

00:04:44   Half of the internet wrote in to tell us that the Space Gray keyboard, mouse, and Magic

00:04:48   Trackpad are all available separately now, if that's your cup of tea.

00:04:52   I am currently fondling touching a Space Gray keyboard, and I have a Space Gray Magic Mouse

00:04:59   next to me, and I have a Space Gray Magic Trackpad that I use from time to time.

00:05:03   These were all secondhand from friend of the show, underscore David Smith, who did not

00:05:07   charge me a premium.

00:05:08   However, Apple will charge you a $20 price premium because Apple.

00:05:11   Yeah, why is it that the dark ones, I mean technically they can do this with any color.

00:05:17   Let's just make fewer of them and then charge more because they're more rare.

00:05:20   Sure you can do it all the time, but in general Apple doesn't seem to do that with things

00:05:24   that come in colors.

00:05:25   Like you can get your phones or your iPads in various colors, gold, rose gold, space

00:05:29   gray, sometimes they come in black, but there's no price difference between the colors.

00:05:33   And yet somehow in the Mac world, every time something gets a darker color, it's an extra

00:05:37   twenty bucks or something.

00:05:39   And I don't know, for some reason it bothers me that you can get iOS devices in different

00:05:46   colors for the same price, but in the Mac side that's not the case.

00:05:49   So anyway, I just hope if you're out there listening to this, you didn't buy a space

00:05:53   gray iMac Pro keyboard for $1,500 on eBay, because that would have been a bad move.

00:05:58   I kind of feel like my iMac Pro is less special now that these are available to anybody.

00:06:03   I'm so sorry.

00:06:04   - Yeah, well, listeners of the show

00:06:06   would have been well warned

00:06:08   because as soon as the iMacros came out,

00:06:11   we were surprised that they,

00:06:13   wasn't our prediction that they wouldn't sell

00:06:14   for a lot on eBay because people would realize

00:06:16   Apple's just gonna introduce them

00:06:17   and then your things will be worthless.

00:06:18   But alas, that's not the way people think.

00:06:21   And so some people did buy them and sell them apparently

00:06:24   for very high prices on eBay

00:06:25   and I hope all those people are sad now.

00:06:28   - Snarky John tonight, is everything okay?

00:06:31   - And the people who sold them aren't sad.

00:06:32   - That's true.

00:06:33   Yeah, I guess.

00:06:34   Well, they should be because they took advantage of somebody that may feel bad about that,

00:06:38   right?

00:06:39   Only if Apple should not feel bad they're charging $20 more for no reason.

00:06:42   $20 premium is better than like a $1,350 premium.

00:06:48   We are sponsored this week by Jamf Now.

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00:08:06   That's J-A-M-F dot com slash ATP.

00:08:09   Thank you so much to Jamf now for sponsoring our show.

00:08:12   (upbeat music)

00:08:15   - I would, at this point, plug our live show.

00:08:19   That is going to be happening at WWDC on Monday night,

00:08:21   but it is sold out.

00:08:22   So if you happen to have a ticket and know you won't need it,

00:08:26   please get in contact with AltConf and let them know that or tell a friend or do something.

00:08:32   But we have no control over attendance. We have no sway over wait lists or anything like

00:08:37   that. So thank you to everyone who has purchased a ticket. We hope to see you there. And it

00:08:43   should be really exciting.

00:08:44   You could win one from a friend in the game of chance.

00:08:46   I'm assuming this is a reference I'm not aware of. Anyway. All right. So Marco, you went

00:08:52   on a really long road trip recently and you had mentioned briefly in the last episode

00:08:56   that you had bought some walkie-talkies to take with you because it was going to be a

00:09:00   multi-car caravan. The last I tried to use walkie-talkies, which was just a handful of

00:09:05   years ago, they were promised to work for like 34 zillion miles and worked for about

00:09:11   34 feet. So tell me about your fans. I'm sure you bought the most heinously expensive walkie-talkies

00:09:17   you could find. Tell me how well or not well they worked.

00:09:20   - So they were only, I think it was something like

00:09:22   60 or 70 dollars for a pair.

00:09:25   And then it included all the accessories

00:09:26   like the charging base and everything.

00:09:28   So I wouldn't say that was that expensive.

00:09:30   It's some kind of Cobra, if you look at Amazon,

00:09:33   like the Cobra model that is the highest of its group,

00:09:37   that's the one I got.

00:09:38   It's like something like that for a pair.

00:09:39   And it's the one, it has a very useful feature.

00:09:42   This is one of the reasons I went to this model,

00:09:44   that it has a repeat that back button.

00:09:48   So it keeps a buffer over the last few things

00:09:50   that were said, and so if you miss what somebody said,

00:09:53   you can just hit that and it plays it again,

00:09:55   which is really useful.

00:09:56   Anyway, John made it fun of me relentlessly

00:09:59   for buying walkie talkies for the purpose

00:10:01   of communicating between two vehicles on a road trip,

00:10:03   because we have cell phones.

00:10:05   And that was a really good argument.

00:10:06   Cell phones do sound way better.

00:10:09   Unfortunately, it takes a little bit of time

00:10:11   to create a cell phone connection.

00:10:14   You have to pick up the phone, unlock it if it's not unlocked,

00:10:16   tap something, find them, you know, connect.

00:10:19   Oh, walkie talkie, you literally just push a button

00:10:21   and you immediately can say something to them.

00:10:22   - I told you, you should have had your phones

00:10:23   connected the whole time.

00:10:25   - Yes, but we were like listening to music

00:10:26   and podcasts and stuff the whole time with our phones.

00:10:28   - Yeah, you muted and when you wanna talk, you hit the mute.

00:10:30   It's not like you're browsing Twitter on it,

00:10:31   bouncing on the dashboard, hit the mute button.

00:10:33   Mute, mute, mute, unmute, unmute, unmute.

00:10:35   - No, but-- - Yeah, I can't even say it.

00:10:36   - But the phone was being used for the media,

00:10:38   so that's no good.

00:10:40   - Well, what were you, what media, oh, the podcasts?

00:10:42   - Yeah, podcasts, music, or navigation directions.

00:10:45   We were also using Waze to navigate.

00:10:46   - You can do all that at once on your phone.

00:10:48   - Nope, you can't play media

00:10:50   while you're taking a phone call.

00:10:52   Anyway, so, and also, where these really came in handy,

00:10:56   besides the incredibly fast ability to just push a button

00:10:59   and say something quick like,

00:11:01   hey, watch out, don't merge left yet,

00:11:02   or something like that, or you don't wanna stop at this exit,

00:11:05   really quick stuff, but also,

00:11:08   not the entirety of our trip had cell phone coverage.

00:11:12   Because we were going to a very rural place

00:11:14   at the end of the trip, the entire last 45 minutes

00:11:18   had no coverage, during which we were on the walkie talkies

00:11:21   a lot to coordinate things like where we were gonna park

00:11:24   this giant truck and what direction it had to face,

00:11:27   how we were going to get it that way,

00:11:29   what we were gonna do once we got there,

00:11:30   how we were gonna do the very first steps to unload it

00:11:33   and all the logistics involved.

00:11:34   They proved to be invaluable.

00:11:37   Everybody involved in this trip was very, very happy

00:11:40   that we had these walkie talkies.

00:11:42   They were wonderful in ways that a phone

00:11:45   either would have been worse or would have not worked at all.

00:11:47   So John was totally wrong.

00:11:48   And to answer Casey's question, the range,

00:11:53   I did a little bit of research obviously when buying these.

00:11:55   And it appears-- - You?

00:11:56   - Most of them seem to quote a range of

00:12:01   somewhere between like 10 and 50 miles.

00:12:04   And it doesn't take that much digging

00:12:06   to realize that that's actually like,

00:12:08   if you're like two people on top of mountaintops

00:12:10   with nothing in between you,

00:12:12   that's like the most ideal scenario

00:12:14   of like nothing obstructing it,

00:12:16   no interference from anything.

00:12:18   If you use it in a more realistic location,

00:12:23   like in a town or on a highway,

00:12:25   the mileage basically gets cut to a tenth,

00:12:28   so it gets decimated, right?

00:12:30   That's what that means?

00:12:31   So yeah, so it basically gets--

00:12:33   So your 37 mile one is actually more like three miles.

00:12:39   And even that is like, if you're in a really dense area

00:12:41   like in a city with lots of buildings and everything,

00:12:44   it might be more like one mile, or maybe even a half mile,

00:12:48   worst case scenario for these bigger ones.

00:12:50   And there's a limit on how powerful they can transmit,

00:12:54   which I think on most of the bands is two watts.

00:12:56   So that's kinda what limits how powerful they can be.

00:13:00   But yeah, so it was fun, it was totally worth it.

00:13:02   And they're really modern useful things,

00:13:04   like the playback feature.

00:13:07   and they both can charge via USB,

00:13:10   or take AA batteries,

00:13:11   or you can put rechargeable batteries in them

00:13:13   and charge them through the USB ports.

00:13:15   It's great.

00:13:16   So John was wrong, the end.

00:13:18   - So just for the young people listening,

00:13:20   I wanna assure you that it actually is possible

00:13:21   to take tandem car trips without either cell phones

00:13:24   or walkie-talkies.

00:13:26   - Yeah, but it sucks.

00:13:27   - It does suck.

00:13:28   I would agree with both of you.

00:13:29   - It's fun, you have to come up with systems for signaling,

00:13:32   and then get frustrated while the people

00:13:33   don't follow the systems for signaling.

00:13:35   - That's a John statement if I've ever heard

00:13:37   - That's not my word.

00:13:38   - It is fun though.

00:13:38   It's like being a spy.

00:13:40   - Something like that.

00:13:41   - If I put my right hand out the window,

00:13:43   that means pull over.

00:13:45   Put my left hand out the window, that means merge.

00:13:48   - Aye yai yai.

00:13:49   All right, we should get to the actual topics

00:13:52   for this evening and something happened on Tuesday

00:13:54   and something something education.

00:13:57   Moving on, let's finally get to the topic

00:13:59   we all wanna get to, which is Apple's Hay Day.

00:14:04   Let's talk about this.

00:14:04   - There's one in between that you skip,

00:14:06   but no, we're gonna talk about the Tuesday thing.

00:14:08   We're not gonna go through the event blow by blow

00:14:09   'cause there wasn't that much to go through.

00:14:11   - I thought this was so funny because last week,

00:14:13   we as professional podcasters completely failed to mention

00:14:17   our W2C live show and also that there was about to be

00:14:21   an Apple event that we all knew about and we're like,

00:14:23   ooh, everyone else is doing predictions

00:14:25   and at least mentioning this is gonna happen.

00:14:27   We completely failed to even mention it.

00:14:29   - I don't think we failed to because I knew about it.

00:14:31   I just didn't think there was anything worth saying

00:14:33   on the last show.

00:14:34   I think we talked about it beforehand and like,

00:14:36   well, we'll see what they announce.

00:14:38   But until, I didn't have high expectations

00:14:41   of what they were gonna announce,

00:14:42   and so I didn't really feel like it was worth discussing

00:14:45   until they announced something.

00:14:46   - I mean, I didn't have high expectations either,

00:14:48   and they even failed to meet those.

00:14:49   I thought it'd be really funny

00:14:51   if we just never mentioned it at all,

00:14:53   because there was so little really to it,

00:14:57   but unfortunately, Jon wants to talk about it,

00:15:01   so we're gonna talk about it.

00:15:03   Just pretend like we never actually mentioned it,

00:15:05   and it's funnier that way.

00:15:06   - There wasn't a lot of product announcements,

00:15:08   but I think there are things to talk about, though.

00:15:10   So my first question is,

00:15:11   did you two actually watch the event?

00:15:13   - Nope.

00:15:14   Not live, but I, 'cause it was actually

00:15:15   during the road trip that I was taking,

00:15:17   but I downloaded the video and watched it that night.

00:15:20   - Casey's poo-pooing this event, he didn't even watch it.

00:15:21   How do you know?

00:15:22   They could've had seven slides about you.

00:15:24   - I have to admit, I also fast-forwarded

00:15:26   through some parts of it, 'cause it, you know what?

00:15:29   What I didn't like about it overall,

00:15:33   it kind of made me feel, I don't know,

00:15:36   it was a little bit off-putting.

00:15:37   It basically seemed like they were holding an event

00:15:40   to almost like yell at the world like,

00:15:44   "No, look, we care about education,"

00:15:46   but without actually backing it up

00:15:48   with what I consider to be enough.

00:15:51   And that could take lots of different forms,

00:15:52   and you could disagree or agree with that,

00:15:54   but I felt like the premise of an education event,

00:15:58   that they call the press out and everything,

00:16:01   And by the way, if I was an independent journalist

00:16:06   who flew out there on my own dime to cover this,

00:16:08   I'd be pretty annoyed, honestly.

00:16:10   But anyway, and I'm friends with some of these people,

00:16:13   and they haven't told me this behind the scenes,

00:16:14   I'm just saying if I were one of these people,

00:16:17   I would be annoyed that I had spent

00:16:19   the time and money to do this.

00:16:20   But the impression I got from this event

00:16:22   was that it was a lot of cheerleading,

00:16:27   it was almost like a pep rally for Apple and for teachers.

00:16:30   - It's so accurate, given it was in a school.

00:16:33   - Yeah, right?

00:16:34   But without enough substance, I thought, to back that up.

00:16:36   It was really more like, look at how great we already are

00:16:41   at the things that we are already doing.

00:16:43   Not so much, here's some new software, new changes,

00:16:47   new hardware, whatever it is.

00:16:49   There was actually very little of that,

00:16:51   at least very little of relevance or of significance.

00:16:54   And there was just a lot more like,

00:16:56   here's how great we are, here's someone else

00:16:58   to come out and tell you how great we've been

00:17:00   and how great we're going to keep being.

00:17:02   And it was a weird balance.

00:17:04   I just felt almost like my attention

00:17:07   was taken advantage of.

00:17:11   - You're waiting for them to get to the product announcements.

00:17:13   - No, and look, I wasn't expecting an iPhone or anything.

00:17:15   I knew that it was a focused education event.

00:17:18   That's one thing, but if you look at what people

00:17:22   would reasonably expect out of a publicized press event

00:17:27   regarding Apple and education,

00:17:29   I would have expected a lot more than what we actually got.

00:17:33   - Some people were tweeting, I forget when it was,

00:17:34   like the 20 or 30 minute mark.

00:17:36   They were like, we're 20 minutes in

00:17:38   and they still haven't said anything about any products yet.

00:17:41   There was a long lead in

00:17:42   and there was a long lead out as well.

00:17:44   So I don't remember the last education event,

00:17:48   but another thing people were tweeting about

00:17:49   was exactly how long ago the last education event was.

00:17:53   Apparently they don't even have these things

00:17:54   every two or three years.

00:17:56   There are long gaps between the events.

00:17:59   Having a dedicated education event.

00:18:00   Apple does stuff education-related all the time, but having a dedicated event for it

00:18:04   doesn't happen all the time.

00:18:05   I think the last time we talked about it, these stats were similar, but to frame this

00:18:11   to like why is Apple having an education event?

00:18:14   Why are they spending an hour on stage telling you about all the things that Apple does related

00:18:19   to education and trying to make them seem, to Marco's point, as good as possible, seem

00:18:25   desirable, seem like that Apple is doing great things in education.

00:18:29   This is a quote from Bloomberg, a Bloomberg article, link in the show notes.

00:18:33   Chromebooks accounted for 60% of laptops, tablet, and other mobile computers shipping

00:18:36   to U.S. K-12 schools in the third quarter of 2017.

00:18:40   Apple's iPads accounted for 12% of those school devices, which is less than half its market

00:18:44   share from 2014.

00:18:45   So from 2014 to 2017, their market share has been cut in half, more than cut in half.

00:18:52   So not only is Apple not leading in market share in this education category they're addressing

00:19:00   here, which is basically United States K-12 schools, not only are Chromebooks eating their

00:19:06   lunch there, but it's not as if that's just the status quo.

00:19:09   It's like, yeah, well, you know, Apple's never had big market share, but they have the important

00:19:14   part.

00:19:15   In three years, their small market share has been cut in half.

00:19:19   So if I were Apple and I cared anything about education, I would have to be taking a hard

00:19:25   look at this and saying, "Should we get out of the education market or should we do something?"

00:19:31   Because unlike lots of other markets where we have small market share but it's steady

00:19:35   and we reap most of the profits, like the phone market for example, Apple does not dominate

00:19:41   the phone market market share-wise.

00:19:42   But Apple is probably not crying over that because they make so much money on it and

00:19:48   They are seen to have, if not the best phone, then one of the best phones.

00:19:54   And I don't think you see a lot of articles anymore saying Apple needs to up its phone

00:19:58   market share or they're going to be doomed or Android is eating Apple's lunch in the

00:20:02   phone market just because the money talks.

00:20:04   You look at where all the money goes, it goes to Apple.

00:20:07   And also, if Apple's phone market share had been cut in half in the last three years,

00:20:11   I think there'd be a lot of articles about that.

00:20:13   So I feel like the context for this event is Apple trying to figure out how to even

00:20:21   just stay in the game in education.

00:20:23   Forget about it, here's how great we are, but just, is this a market where we can make

00:20:29   a difference?

00:20:30   Where we can be a player?

00:20:31   Where we can be important?

00:20:34   And that got me thinking about how the education market is different from the phone market,

00:20:39   or the personal computer market, or the TV connected puck market, or the home cylinder

00:20:42   that you yell at market or whatever, you know, the fancy computer watch market.

00:20:48   Lots of, like, in the modern era, Apple has been all about making tons of money selling

00:20:55   relatively high margin expensive products to a minority of a market.

00:20:59   The phone market is the best example of that.

00:21:02   They make so much money and their market share is so small compared to the aggregate of all

00:21:08   their competitors, which is always just lumped together as like Apple and not Apple, basically

00:21:12   Android and iOS. But they just make so much money. It's like, well, this is a winning

00:21:16   strategy. We don't really care. We're not going to worry that, oh, we need to make a

00:21:22   netbook. Remember, the netbook's little cheap laptops to compete with the PC space. We need

00:21:26   to make a super cheap iPhone to compete with Android. That's not how Apple plays the game.

00:21:33   They want to sell to the best part of the market, best meaning the part that is the

00:21:37   most lucrative, the part that allows Apple to make the fanciest products because people

00:21:41   will pay the highest price and the highest margins and all that Apple's products look

00:21:45   nice and everything like that.

00:21:48   And I was thinking about whether that strategy is viable in education because as far as I

00:21:56   can tell, Apple continues to essentially pursue that in these past decade or so in education,

00:22:02   saying we're not going to have the majority of the education market, but we'll have the

00:22:07   quote-unquote best part of the education market, the richest schools will buy Apple stuff.

00:22:13   Like I'm trying to figure out what they're thinking.

00:22:16   If you can afford us, we give you the best school experience, or it will seem the fanciest

00:22:23   if you buy Apple stuff.

00:22:25   And for some reason, when it comes to education, that rubs me the wrong way more so than smartphones.

00:22:31   Just because education I think of more as a thing that has to be for everybody.

00:22:37   Whereas smartphones, there are options, and if you don't have an iPhone, you are not disadvantaged

00:22:44   in life versus if you have an Android phone, right?

00:22:46   But if you don't have an education or don't have a good education, or your education is

00:22:50   not as rich as someone else's, that feels, you know, inequitable to me.

00:22:56   And so I'm watching this presentation and I'm trying to figure out, is Apple changing

00:23:01   course here? Are they saying, "We're going to figure out how to let more students get

00:23:11   access to our products," or are we still concentrating on providing the best products

00:23:17   for the few students who are lucky enough to go to a school that can afford them? And

00:23:23   the presentation, as I read it, as someone who is not—I'm not involved in the education

00:23:28   system but I do have kids in school, seemed to me that they were not changing their strategy,

00:23:34   that everything they presented was beautifully polished, sort of very sort of high-end, nice

00:23:40   to look at applications, hardware and software that a few schools are lucky enough to have,

00:23:48   but that the pricing was the same as it's ever been, and that nothing they announced

00:23:55   is going to help them compete with the things that are currently eating their lunch in the

00:23:59   market, not just on price, but from what I understand from people in education, a lot

00:24:05   of the features for the stuff that Google offers are better than the feature that Apple

00:24:10   offers.

00:24:11   That's why part of the announcements are, yeah, we have a product, a new iPad, but we

00:24:15   also have a bunch of new software that's playing catch-up to our competitors to say, oh, here's

00:24:19   an easier way to manage a bunch of iPads, using an easier way for a teacher to manage

00:24:22   a bunch of students doing things.

00:24:24   But even that, even the catch-up software, I saw a lot of complaints saying, "Okay,

00:24:28   but you still haven't caught up entirely to the functionality offered by Google in

00:24:32   terms of integrating into other school system things and providing a broader set of functionality,"

00:24:36   which may not be pretty and fancy and have the Apple Pencil support and high-end video

00:24:43   production capabilities so kids can make cool videos about gravity and stuff, but practically

00:24:47   speaking, when it comes to reading, writing, and arithmetic and the basics of functioning

00:24:52   in a school and having a lot of students and a lot of devices and managing it all.

00:24:58   But still, Apple's offerings aren't even the best and they're certainly not the cheapest.

00:25:03   So I'm kind of confused/concerned about Apple's approach to education because it seems to

00:25:10   me that if they really want to make a difference in this market, they need to pursue a different

00:25:14   strategy because I don't think it's appropriate to pursue a strategy like they do in the consumer

00:25:20   market in education.

00:25:22   I don't know, maybe I'm wrong about that.

00:25:23   I would love to hear from people in education

00:25:26   who have worked with Apple and Google stuff

00:25:28   about how they perceive these competitors.

00:25:32   Did people watch the education event,

00:25:34   people who are actually teachers or school administrators

00:25:38   and think that Apple had done something

00:25:40   that's gonna change the game

00:25:42   or did it just seem like more of the same?

00:25:45   - I thought Joe Saplinsky had a few good tweets about this

00:25:48   and I'll probably forget to put them in the show notes,

00:25:50   But Joe used to be a, I think he was an English teacher,

00:25:55   if I'm not mistaken, apologies if I have that wrong.

00:25:57   But now he's an app developer and designer and slash rockstar.

00:26:01   But in any case, you know, his take about it was, you know,

00:26:05   look, Apple doesn't really play the cheap game,

00:26:10   just like you were saying, Jon.

00:26:11   You know, it's not Apple's card that they play.

00:26:14   So are we really surprised that this is the way

00:26:16   this event turned out?

00:26:18   And, you know, he and I went back and forth a little bit in a happy way, or at least I

00:26:22   thought I was happy, maybe he was annoyed at me.

00:26:24   But yeah, we went back and forth a little bit.

00:26:26   And the thing that, you know, I've not worked in education, but Aaron was a teacher, a high

00:26:31   school teacher for a long time.

00:26:32   And in fact, I think I've mentioned this a few times on the show, a few years ago, actually

00:26:36   many years ago now, there was national news about like a stampede that happened because

00:26:42   iBooks were being sold for 50 bucks a pop at the Richmond International Raceway.

00:26:46   And they were old, like high school iBooks that were being retired, and so they were

00:26:50   selling them obscenely cheaply.

00:26:52   And people like got trampled trying to buy these cheap iBooks.

00:26:55   Well, that happened because of the county in which we live.

00:26:58   It was our county that was selling all those.

00:27:01   And so Erin, when she was teaching, the kids all got issued Dells when they were—when

00:27:05   she was teaching.

00:27:06   Dude.

00:27:07   It was just a—yeah, you're getting a Dell.

00:27:09   It was just a couple years before that they were getting these iBooks, et cetera.

00:27:14   So having spoken to Erin about this, I mean, again, I'm still a little bit removed from

00:27:20   the actual decision-making, as was she, but it seemed pretty clear to me that even in

00:27:27   a relatively affluent area like we're in, I mean, we're no like, you know, Greenwich

00:27:34   County, Connecticut or anything like that, but we're not, you know, broke around these

00:27:38   parts.

00:27:39   And even here, it's all about cost.

00:27:42   just a hundred percent about cost. And so yeah, I think you're right, John, that maybe the apples play

00:27:47   is, "Hey, if you happen to live in a really rich area, or if you go to like a very well-to-do private

00:27:51   school or something like that, then yeah, we have all sorts of sweet answers for you. We have a sweet

00:27:55   solution for you." But I don't know of any like quote-unquote "regular school system" that is going

00:28:04   to look at anything more than initial purchase price. Maybe, maybe total cost of ownership.

00:28:12   Maybe. But generally speaking it's going to be purchase price. And the other thing I've

00:28:15   gleaned from Bradley Chambers and Fraser Spears and a few others is that apparently the management

00:28:21   stuff that Google has is way better than what Apple has. It's not even in the ballpark.

00:28:27   Now to be fair you can supplement what Apple does with like Jamf or other other third-party tools,

00:28:31   But it's just it seems to be a lot more work and a lot more money to use the Apple suite

00:28:36   Is that worth it? Maybe they certainly painted from what I've gleaned from not having watched the event

00:28:42   He certainly painted a pretty compelling pictures to all the things you can do with iPads in the classroom and so on and so forth

00:28:47   But I I just don't see how that's a realistic play

00:28:52   For almost any general school system in the world and if you're gonna spend three hundred thirty dollars on

00:28:59   You know, per kid on an iPad.

00:29:02   I don't, I gotta imagine an aggregate

00:29:04   that adds up to a not insignificant amount of money.

00:29:07   And the first place I would put that is teacher salaries,

00:29:10   because at least in America,

00:29:11   salaries are just hilariously just devastatingly small.

00:29:15   And it's absurd how little teachers get paid here.

00:29:18   - I guess the other point that is less and less mentioned,

00:29:22   I feel like, in the modern Apple era,

00:29:24   which is general skepticism about whether

00:29:28   the addition of technology actually improves education.

00:29:31   To your point, Casey, about maybe you actually paid teachers more, that would improve education

00:29:35   more than buying all the kids a laptop.

00:29:36   Like, there is a technology angle that Apple can speak to, which is they have a very important,

00:29:41   profitable platform that if things keep going well will be a viable place for children to

00:29:48   make their living.

00:29:50   And so teaching coding skills, and just more broadly, teaching coding skills, which is

00:29:53   the thing that Apple's familiar with because they have a developer, you know, they have

00:29:56   developers, they have developer relations, they have developer tools, they are well equipped

00:30:00   to make an education-focused version of teaching people how—computer skills, which I think

00:30:05   is a viable thing to learn in school, right? And Apple has expertise there, so welcome

00:30:09   Apple to the education. You're teaching about something you know. But beyond that, I feel

00:30:14   like when I was a kid, there was much more skepticism about whether having kids make

00:30:18   a multimedia presentation about gravity, like in that they have this cute video of kids,

00:30:23   you know, doing this project and making slow-mo videos on all their iOS devices and cutting

00:30:26   it together and making animations and doing all that.

00:30:30   Looks fun, seems expensive, and especially like these, you know, incredibly high production

00:30:34   values that these, for the things they do in these little promotional videos.

00:30:39   But does that actually improve education?

00:30:42   Like there's enrichment and there is getting kids engaged with technology and there is

00:30:46   having the advantage to do something a little bit different every once in a while.

00:30:50   But I think the vision presented by Apple of that like all kids are doing creative multimedia

00:30:55   digital things all the time is not representative of like the broader effort to educate.

00:31:03   Like those are the most fun parts and you can make learning fun with the addition of

00:31:07   technology but you can make learning fun with the addition of you know just sitting in a

00:31:12   circle and talking to each other and you know or just going on a field trip.

00:31:17   Like there is—it just seems to me that Apple seems uninterested in what will actually make

00:31:26   education better and more interested in how can we make education better with our products.

00:31:36   And I'm not entirely sure their products make education better in a way that is worth

00:31:43   the money spent on.

00:31:45   Not all those people's like, oh,

00:31:46   schools shouldn't have computers or anything like that.

00:31:48   It just seems to me that like,

00:31:51   that learning is not linked to the technology involved.

00:31:55   Right?

00:31:56   That you can learn all the same things

00:31:59   in exciting, engaging ways

00:32:01   without having computers involved at all.

00:32:06   Unless of course you're learning about computers,

00:32:07   which again, that's the angle that Apple has expertise on.

00:32:09   And they're wise to lean on it,

00:32:11   like learning to code and the Swift playground

00:32:13   and all that stuff.

00:32:14   learning about computers. Computers may help you. Typewriters may help you. Slates may

00:32:19   help you. Pencils and lined paper may help you. But in the end, the learning part, it

00:32:24   seems much more—there are so many other much bigger factors, starting with just like

00:32:30   temperature control and safety all the way up to class size and teachers that are not

00:32:36   stressed out and are not underpaid and overworked and just curriculum that suits the students,

00:32:43   learning strategies, special help for the kids who need it. There's so many more things

00:32:48   that are more important to me than whether my kids have the latest iPad or Android devices

00:32:54   or whatever. And I'm not saying that it's Apple's job to solve education. The problem

00:33:00   is just that I didn't even see a faint in that direction, a nod or an understanding

00:33:05   to the fact that the most important thing in the classroom has nothing to do with the

00:33:10   just there because they're there to sell you the technology and that's what I found.

00:33:14   That and my concern about the fact that their strategy doesn't seem to be changing made

00:33:18   me think that Apple is on the wrong track with its education strategy and that if they

00:33:25   continue to pursue it, they're not going to turn around their market share slide.

00:33:31   And also, like again, having two kids in school, it didn't make me think, "Boy, I wish my

00:33:36   kids had access to iPads and Apple laptops."

00:33:40   It just didn't, you know, like I don't have any desire for that at all for my kids.

00:33:44   I want my kids to, you know, learn and enjoy school and learn the, you know, the things

00:33:51   that they're supposed to learn, the social skills, like to have a good school experience.

00:33:55   I have no desires whatsoever about the technology they're using.

00:33:58   I don't care if they use any technology unless they're interested in technology or unless

00:34:02   they're taking a course in technology.

00:34:03   And even then, I don't care if they teach the kids Pascal, teach them C++, teach them

00:34:07   Scheme.

00:34:08   I don't care if they're learning Swift or iOS program or anything like that.

00:34:13   So I don't know.

00:34:14   Maybe I'm overly grumpy about this.

00:34:16   [laughs]

00:34:17   -No, I mean, I think you bring up a lot of really good points because, you know, I think

00:34:22   maybe one of the reasons this event kind of rubbed me the wrong way is similar to what

00:34:25   you were just saying about how it seems like Apple more just wants to like yell at us about

00:34:32   why they don't have to change much of anything, why their existing stuff can just be shoved

00:34:37   right in there and be a perfect fit.

00:34:39   And I think that over time, the compellingness

00:34:44   or the fit of what they're trying to put

00:34:47   into this category versus what these customers

00:34:50   actually need and want is diverging.

00:34:53   It's not getting closer over time,

00:34:55   it's getting worse over time.

00:34:56   Like, the way I see it from both reading

00:34:59   and listening to school workers who are also writers

00:35:04   in tech or podcasters, also from friends and family I know

00:35:08   who work in education, some of them teachers,

00:35:10   some of them administrators.

00:35:12   It seems like what schools ultimately want

00:35:15   is inexpensive, durable laptops,

00:35:18   and enterprise-style management tools and services

00:35:22   to back them, to make it easier to manage.

00:35:25   Apple seems to me like they're losing this

00:35:27   on three pretty major fronts.

00:35:30   Price is obviously a big one.

00:35:32   They are losing on price, not by as much as some people think if you look at iPads as

00:35:38   being the solution, if you look at laptops as being the solution, that they lose big.

00:35:42   They also seem to be losing with, you know, just kind of, this is kind of the wrong product,

00:35:46   I think.

00:35:47   And we have this argument a lot in our regular tech beat of is the iPad a good enough computer

00:35:52   for various people for various things.

00:35:55   And ultimately, I think while you could make some really nice marketing videos about how

00:36:00   how cool it would be if kids used iPads

00:36:02   to rediscover things like music and robots and stuff.

00:36:07   That's not what most kids need most of the time

00:36:09   in most classes.

00:36:10   What they mostly need is laptops.

00:36:13   And so what Apple is trying to sell the schools on is,

00:36:16   no, look, yes, our laptops are way too expensive

00:36:19   for what you're looking for,

00:36:21   so instead, although they still sell a lot of them anyway,

00:36:23   but instead, you should be looking at the iPad.

00:36:26   That's why we don't need to make our laptops any cheaper,

00:36:27   'cause the future is the iPad.

00:36:29   and you can just bolt on all of these clunky,

00:36:32   expensive accessories that raise the price even further

00:36:35   because you're not gonna use that iPad at $329 or $299.

00:36:40   You're gonna have to add a case of some kind to protect it

00:36:43   because it's way too fragile to just give to kids naked.

00:36:45   You can't even give to adults naked.

00:36:47   So you gotta get some kind of case.

00:36:49   It's probably gonna want some kind of keyboard

00:36:51   for a lot of things it needs

00:36:52   or for standardized test requirements or things like that.

00:36:55   So that's why they have this Logitech case

00:36:56   that has this special keyboard and everything.

00:36:58   And so you have to add on all these accessories.

00:37:01   Now they want you to buy a pencil or the Logitech Crayon,

00:37:03   which is interesting, they want you to add on

00:37:05   even more stuff to it to make it into what you want.

00:37:08   All that drives up the price and the complexity

00:37:10   and the clunkiness of the solution.

00:37:12   So it's very possible, and I think likely,

00:37:15   that they're actually selling schools the wrong product.

00:37:17   What schools actually want is inexpensive, durable laptops.

00:37:21   And then the third problem, which I don't see them

00:37:24   probably ever fixing, is that if you talk to an administrator

00:37:28   to an administrator or a teacher who runs the Google G Suite stuff or to an IT manager

00:37:35   who runs the fleets of these things, the G Suite management tools are really good. It

00:37:42   is an entire enterprise management platform and all these web services with Google Docs

00:37:49   and all this stuff that's really good. Apple, I don't think, is ever going to do well in

00:37:56   in that kind of environment.

00:37:58   That's not in their DNA to make enterprise

00:38:00   fleet management things very, very well,

00:38:02   or to make cloud document platforms very well.

00:38:05   They try, but not very hard,

00:38:07   and it's never very competitive.

00:38:09   And when you compare, like, I wanted to,

00:38:12   I laughed so hard, they made a quick little remark

00:38:15   about how when the iPad, how it supports multiple users

00:38:19   only in a school environment, and the presenter said,

00:38:23   you can change users in under a minute.

00:38:26   (laughing)

00:38:27   - Wow.

00:38:28   - I was like, imagine if it took a minute

00:38:30   to switch users on a PC or a Mac?

00:38:33   - It wasn't even change users,

00:38:34   it was you could log out and be ready

00:38:36   for someone else to log in.

00:38:37   Like they were just, they were touting the log out time.

00:38:39   I think the log in time could potentially be worse,

00:38:41   'cause it does, what it does under the cover

00:38:42   is it's not like, it's not like they're using

00:38:45   the multi-user features of the underlying operating system,

00:38:47   it's just like a single user iPad

00:38:49   that they swap in and out by shuffling stuff around.

00:38:51   It's not like multiple accounts on the Mac.

00:38:53   - They're like tearing down the entire user space,

00:38:55   tearing down all of Springboard,

00:38:56   swapping in various like directories and files

00:38:59   and then bringing the whole thing back up.

00:39:00   It's basically, it's even more complex than a reboot,

00:39:04   what they're doing.

00:39:05   (laughs)

00:39:06   'Cause these devices are not made for this at all.

00:39:09   Like, you know, if you want that kind of thing,

00:39:11   you need networked PCs and Macs.

00:39:13   Like, iPads are so not made for multi-user

00:39:16   and they're not willing to change iOS

00:39:18   in major ways to fix that.

00:39:19   They're only willing to do like,

00:39:20   this kind of like minor lip service stuff.

00:39:22   So if you look at Apple Education, their history,

00:39:26   they were always kind of like the fancy, expensive ones

00:39:30   that you'd have a few of in the schools.

00:39:32   I think very, I was in school long before

00:39:34   any kind of one-to-one program,

00:39:35   so maybe that's different now.

00:39:36   But Apple did well when it was Macs only,

00:39:41   when they weren't trying to split

00:39:42   their consumer computing ideal

00:39:45   into these two very different platforms of Mac and iPad.

00:39:48   so when there's just one platform for them to focus on,

00:39:51   and in a world where that platform

00:39:53   could basically be an island.

00:39:55   It was like, here is a really nice desktop

00:39:57   that you can use to edit videos

00:39:59   and do desktop publishing on.

00:40:00   They were really good at that.

00:40:02   But today, you have large fleets of these

00:40:07   always-networked, strongly web services-based

00:40:10   application platforms and enterprise management tools.

00:40:14   And Apple just doesn't do that nearly as well

00:40:17   or nearly as competitively as Google and Microsoft

00:40:21   and other PC vendors that have tools for schools and stuff.

00:40:26   I don't see that really ever changing.

00:40:28   Apple is not that good at web services,

00:40:30   they're not that good at enterprise management tools.

00:40:33   In all the other areas of their business,

00:40:35   they're actually pulling away from that.

00:40:37   And I also even question, back in the olden days,

00:40:43   there was always that thing,

00:40:45   no one gets fired for buying IBM.

00:40:47   If you're an IT administrator at a school,

00:40:52   and you are tasked with making this kind of decision

00:40:55   of do you invest heavily in the Apple platform

00:40:58   or in G Suite, would you trust knowing today's Apple,

00:41:03   knowing how they do services,

00:41:05   how they maintain applications over time,

00:41:10   would you trust building your school out

00:41:12   on like class kit and the classroom or school work,

00:41:15   whatever it's called, like all that stuff,

00:41:17   would you trust that to actually be not only bug free

00:41:20   when it ships not today,

00:41:22   when it ships sometime in the future,

00:41:23   would you trust that to be stable enough?

00:41:25   And more importantly, would you trust that to be maintained

00:41:29   and supported over a reasonable amount of time?

00:41:32   I think that's a huge risk for an IT administrator to take.

00:41:35   I think that's way too high of a risk.

00:41:37   Knowing the way Apple does things these days

00:41:39   and knowing how seemingly stable and already well-developed

00:41:44   and well-established the competing platforms are

00:41:47   in these regards, I don't see this being

00:41:50   a really good decision for an IT administrator

00:41:52   pretty much anywhere.

00:41:53   - That gets me back to my earlier point.

00:41:56   Like this is enterprise software for schools.

00:41:59   Like enterprise software, and my old definition

00:42:01   is like software where the person you have to sell it to

00:42:03   is not the person who has to use it.

00:42:04   And there's two angles in that.

00:42:06   The one we already talked about,

00:42:07   which is like management of large devices in a world where you can actually conceive

00:42:12   of one-to-one programs where every student gets one device. Like that was not even a

00:42:15   twinkle in anyone's eye when I was in school. It was like you had a computer lab with like

00:42:18   six computers in it for the whole school. And they're all Apple IIs, by the way, not

00:42:22   Macs. But that enterprise management thing, like some of the people who watch this event

00:42:27   I could see on Twitter were from that camp saying, "Okay, Apple, I have a problem. My

00:42:31   problem is I have lots of students, I have lots of devices, and dealing with them is

00:42:35   You've got to keep track of them all.

00:42:37   You've got to keep them all up to date.

00:42:38   You've got to manage them all.

00:42:39   Tell me, Appa, how you're going to make my job as an enterprise school administrator

00:42:43   easy.

00:42:44   That is enterprise software in both the good and bad senses, and I tend to look at the

00:42:48   bad sense.

00:42:49   The bad sense is, say Apple or Google or anybody makes these school administrators' lives easier

00:42:56   and gives them an easy way to manage large fleets of devices.

00:42:59   I as a parent and as a general citizen interested in the education of the country thinks, "Okay,

00:43:05   But does every student having devices make their education better?

00:43:10   I don't care how easy it is for you, school administrator, to manage the devices.

00:43:15   I understand that's how they sell it to you.

00:43:16   I understand that's why you're choosing, because you want something that can do all the things

00:43:19   you want it to hook into your back-end system that keeps track of all your students.

00:43:24   But I'm not that interested in how easy it is for you to do your job.

00:43:27   The whole point of the school is education.

00:43:30   Is it better for the kids for everyone to have these devices?

00:43:35   Does the device that the kids get, is there a difference to them or is there no difference?

00:43:39   Like, do the kids care if they have a Chromebook or the Apple stuff?

00:43:42   Does it make a difference to their education?

00:43:44   Like, at all?

00:43:45   Do they, you know, so that's my question.

00:43:47   And the second thing is that I worry about is like, the other constituency that is not

00:43:54   the students that Apple appeals to, just in general, but in education is, regardless of

00:44:02   of how hard it is to manage the devices, right? I feel like there is still, and maybe this

00:44:09   has actually increased in the recent decade, some cachet for a school to say, "All our

00:44:16   kids have iPads or have MacBook Airs," going back a little bit in time, or have Apple devices

00:44:22   that if someone was touring a school, thinking of buying a house in the neighborhood and

00:44:29   this is the neighborhood school your kid would go to, or if it's a private school or whatever,

00:44:32   and you have Apple hardware everywhere,

00:44:34   that makes the school seem better,

00:44:36   because Apple, thanks to its marketing

00:44:38   and the general high quality of its products

00:44:40   in the consumer realm, is seen as a premium brand

00:44:42   and as like, it's fancy, right?

00:44:46   And so the parents go, "Ooh, all the kids here have iPads."

00:44:48   Again, do the parents actually think,

00:44:51   if they sat down and think about,

00:44:52   "Well, are iPads going to make

00:44:54   my child's school experience better

00:44:57   than having one more teacher

00:44:59   and making the class sizes smaller?

00:45:00   Are iPads gonna make my kids' educational experience better

00:45:04   than if they had Chromebooks?

00:45:06   They're not even thinking that.

00:45:08   They're just thinking, all the kids in this school,

00:45:10   every school has an iBook, right?

00:45:11   That's why people are making that stampede

00:45:13   for the $50 iBooks, because Apple, you know,

00:45:15   makes fancy, nice devices

00:45:16   that most people usually can't afford.

00:45:18   And if you can suddenly get them for 50 bucks,

00:45:20   it's like, there's a rush on that

00:45:22   because there is a perceived value,

00:45:25   a perceived coolness, cache, marketing value, whatever,

00:45:28   like, status for Apple devices.

00:45:30   So if you can get them cheap, all of a sudden,

00:45:32   people wanna get them, 'cause they want a piece of that.

00:45:34   And that bothers me in education too,

00:45:36   because I don't wanna pick schools

00:45:37   based on how fancy the hardware is.

00:45:40   It's like picking schools based on like,

00:45:41   you know, mahogany railings on the stairs.

00:45:45   I mean, there is something to be said for schools

00:45:47   that look fancy and feel nice and everything,

00:45:49   but as far as education goes, like,

00:45:52   do the kids care that the railings are mahogany?

00:45:54   Like, beyond a minimum level of school upkeep

00:45:57   and temperature control and safety and not pumping carbon monoxide into the building

00:46:02   because the furnace is old.

00:46:03   Obviously they can get bad, but once you get into the competent realm, I'm much less interested

00:46:09   in that stuff than I am about all the other much more important aspects of the school.

00:46:16   Even if Apple was massive...

00:46:18   Take Google.

00:46:19   Google seems to be very successful at appealing to people who are enterprise administrators,

00:46:22   but I continue to wonder.

00:46:24   In a school where the enterprise administrator is kind of like in a workplace where the enterprise

00:46:27   administrators, their job is awesome and they love their vendor. Do their end users love

00:46:32   the product? Do the teachers love the product? Do the students love the product? Does it

00:46:35   actually make their education better? I don't know. I have a real crisis of faith about

00:46:39   technology and education, I guess. So it feels to me, having not actually watched this particular

00:46:46   event, but based on all of the recaps that I've read, it feels to me like this was,

00:46:53   and I forget which one of you said I think it was Marco, this was a pep rally for Apple,

00:46:58   but it was Apple trying to say, "Hey, you should consider us despite us." In other words,

00:47:07   you know, there's so many things that we don't do the way you want us to do it,

00:47:11   but you know what? There's some other stuff that's really cool. And I guess there's a couple of ways

00:47:18   to look at that, right? Like you could look at that as Apple is obnoxious and follow themselves

00:47:22   and oh, of course, we all we're so fancy and look at us and our fancy iPads and our AR and blah,

00:47:28   but I don't really take it that way at all. I took it as, Hey, look, we aspire, we genuinely aspire

00:47:35   to make a, a, a engaging, interesting, enlightening and, and diverse in terms of experienced

00:47:46   educational like

00:47:48   Not event, but you know we want education to be interesting basically and and here's a way that we are several ways that we are

00:47:56   enabling that in making education interesting and

00:47:59   making the education part a

00:48:02   Relatively

00:48:05   Frictionless now the penalty is that the poor school administrator is going to pay for that tenfold

00:48:10   But for the teacher and the student if you believe what apples if you buy what Apple selling literally and figuratively then it's

00:48:18   reasonably frictionless, right

00:48:20   So you should consider this because we are like the aspirational version of education that all of us really want aren't we?

00:48:26   you should really look at us despite the fact that we're way too expensive and way too difficult to work with and

00:48:32   That's how I took the event again not having seen it. I took it as look we're here, you know knock knock knock

00:48:40   "Knock, we're here and we do cool stuff

00:48:43   "and if you really wanna get your kids engaged,

00:48:46   "maybe try us 'cause no kid today wants a laptop anymore.

00:48:51   "I mean, maybe that's what they need."

00:48:52   I mean, I know you said that earlier, Mark,

00:48:53   although I challenge, I'm not entirely sure why.

00:48:56   I mean, my gut says, "Yeah, of course they need laptops,"

00:48:58   but then I ask myself, "Well, why?"

00:49:01   And other than a keyboard, I don't have a good answer.

00:49:03   And I'm not here to have that argument

00:49:05   at this particular moment.

00:49:06   It doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things,

00:49:08   but certainly-- - Everyone says iPads

00:49:09   like everyone's gonna be doing tablets in the future and because my kid loves tablets

00:49:13   and doesn't know what a laptop is and it's like, "Okay, wait till your kid is a little

00:49:16   bit older." And then like, you know, how many kids get to the end of high school without

00:49:19   having or wanting a laptop?

00:49:21   Yeah, yeah. And I agree with you. But all I'm saying is there's the obnoxious Apple

00:49:26   hubris way of looking at this, which is we are so much better than everyone else because

00:49:31   look at how cool we are. And then there's the more humble, "Hey man, we're cool too,

00:49:36   Like, check us out. We're worth at least considering. And that's how I took the event.

00:49:41   But in the end of the day, it all comes--well, not all, but generally speaking, and this is what

00:49:46   Saplinsky and I were kind of going back and forth about,

00:49:48   in general, it all comes down to money, and it's just too damn expensive.

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00:51:26   (upbeat music)

00:51:29   - Now, we haven't really talked about

00:51:32   the actual product announcement that happened

00:51:35   during this event.

00:51:36   - Product. - So we should,

00:51:38   yeah, the product. (laughing)

00:51:40   Which, I mean, to be fair, I don't think anyone

00:51:43   should have really expected more than this.

00:51:45   I think we were all, myself included,

00:51:47   aspirationally hoping for more than just a new iPad,

00:51:50   but realistically, this is what the tea leaves were showing.

00:51:53   So Marco, tell us about this new iPad.

00:51:57   - So it is updated guts for the actually interesting one

00:52:02   that they released last year without an event at all.

00:52:06   So last spring, about a year ago,

00:52:08   they released the inexpensive 9.7-inch iPad for $329,

00:52:12   built with old parts, basically, to make it cheaper.

00:52:16   (laughing)

00:52:17   And it's kinda like the way the iPhone SE

00:52:20   is kinda like built with old parts on the iPhone end

00:52:22   to make that cheaper, it's basically the iPad SE.

00:52:26   They basically kinda remade the iPad Air 1

00:52:30   with modern guts, so it doesn't have some of the niceties.

00:52:33   And then, so this, the news now is that they have now

00:52:37   updated that model, and by the way, I think that model

00:52:39   is almost single-handedly responsible

00:52:42   for the turnaround in iPad sales.

00:52:45   I think the numbers show from the analysts and stuff

00:52:47   that iPad sales went up starting with this model

00:52:50   because it turns out when you drop the price

00:52:54   of the entry level model to a lineup,

00:52:56   a lot more people wanna buy it.

00:52:57   so they could learn a lot from the laptop line.

00:53:00   Anyway.

00:53:01   - Whoever's point it was before, kids do love iPads.

00:53:03   - Oh yeah.

00:53:04   - Like very young kids all the way up.

00:53:05   So there was always an appetite, a desire for iPads,

00:53:09   but you're not gonna buy a $600 iPad for a toddler,

00:53:12   so you buy a $300 one,

00:53:15   starts to get into the realm of possibility.

00:53:17   - Yeah, exactly.

00:53:17   So anyway, so they introduced this lower price point

00:53:21   for the entry level iPad last year,

00:53:23   and it sold very well,

00:53:24   and then now they've updated it with newer components.

00:53:28   It is now roughly the guts of an iPhone 7

00:53:31   in most important ways.

00:53:34   Just in like an iPad size case with an iPad size screen.

00:53:40   It is not the nicest screen.

00:53:41   It's basically like an iPad Air 1 kind of screen,

00:53:45   so it doesn't have the close lamination

00:53:47   of the screen to the glass.

00:53:48   There's like a small visible gap.

00:53:50   Although, I mean, it's not that big.

00:53:52   - Oh, on that topic, I would love to know

00:53:54   if someone knows that that increases repairability,

00:53:56   'cause that's all I could think of.

00:53:57   It's like, why don't they use laminate screen?

00:53:58   Maybe it's because if students drop it,

00:54:00   they can replace the top glass

00:54:01   without replacing the screen,

00:54:02   or maybe I'm wrong about that.

00:54:03   So if someone at the Genius Bar let us know.

00:54:06   - That's an interesting thought.

00:54:07   I mean, I figured it was just for cost,

00:54:08   and for segmentation, 'cause see,

00:54:10   I think one of the issues I have with this,

00:54:11   so anyway, if you go down the specs,

00:54:13   there's not a lot of differences

00:54:16   between this and the 10.5 inch iPad Pro.

00:54:19   There are some, and they might be big for you,

00:54:22   But it's actually not hugely different.

00:54:26   And it's half the price of the iPad Pro.

00:54:29   So there are some differences,

00:54:31   and again, they may matter to you.

00:54:34   As our friend Federico Fattucci pointed out,

00:54:37   the new cheap iPad does not have the promotion,

00:54:40   120 hertz refresh rate,

00:54:42   does not have the P3 wide color, True Tone,

00:54:45   a smart connector for the keyboard,

00:54:47   and then the camera is not as good.

00:54:49   It does not have image stabilization,

00:54:51   not shoot 4K video and it only has first generation touch ID.

00:54:55   It does now support the Apple Pencil, which is interesting.

00:54:58   I don't know how much that's going to matter in practice, at least not for schools.

00:55:05   I can't imagine…

00:55:06   >> It's a good question.

00:55:07   Apple pushing that so hard, by the way, like the pencil support.

00:55:10   Every one of the slides, the whole visual theme of the show was things drawn with the

00:55:14   Apple Pencil.

00:55:15   Every slide, every, like, it was very consistent, beautiful drawings, as always with Apple,

00:55:19   beautiful presentation.

00:55:21   They were leaning heavily on the Pencil.

00:55:22   But the Pencil, of course, is a hundred extra dollars.

00:55:25   That's big, you know, that's why people talk about the iPads.

00:55:27   You have the iPad, then you got 50 to $100 for a case, $100 for the Pencil, and the crayon

00:55:32   was half the price, but it doesn't do pressure,

00:55:35   it just does tilt and touch.

00:55:38   - The Logitech Crayon is interesting.

00:55:39   It's like, if they would sell that separately

00:55:42   and if it would work with regular iPads, it doesn't.

00:55:45   So it only works with this one.

00:55:48   It doesn't work with the iPad Pros.

00:55:50   And it is only sold through the education channel.

00:55:53   So like you can't just go on Apple.com and order one.

00:55:56   Which is unfortunate because it's like Logitech's device

00:56:01   that is really an Apple Pencil inside,

00:56:04   that has the same benefits as the Apple Pencil,

00:56:05   except for it does not have pressure sensitivity.

00:56:08   But I know a lot of people who would buy that,

00:56:10   and it's like a little bit more ergonomic,

00:56:12   it has a button, like it's actually kind of better

00:56:15   in some ways, I mean, you know,

00:56:17   it doesn't look as nice and everything,

00:56:18   but honestly, I would probably have bought one of those

00:56:20   if it worked on the iPad Pro.

00:56:21   - But people can't use it for art

00:56:23   without the pressure sensitivity though.

00:56:24   Like I continue to think that the Apple Pencil,

00:56:26   I mean, the Apple Pencil is great and all,

00:56:27   but I think it's just too expensive.

00:56:29   Like maybe for the Pro models, it's like who cares,

00:56:31   but I really wish there was a pencil for less than $100.

00:56:36   - Yeah, and it really does have a few

00:56:38   pretty annoying design flaws.

00:56:40   Mike made the case on connected this past week

00:56:44   that we all made fun of it how you can charge it

00:56:46   by sticking it up the butt of the iPad

00:56:48   and it looks really funny,

00:56:49   but he made the case that that's actually a good thing

00:56:53   in practice, and that's fine.

00:56:55   I think the Apple Pencil has lots of design problems.

00:56:57   It has the issue of there's nothing to grip on it,

00:57:01   It is a little bit too big and a little bit too heavy.

00:57:05   The battery life is not good enough

00:57:07   and because there is no power switch,

00:57:09   the battery is constantly draining itself

00:57:12   if you're carrying it in a bag and it's in motion

00:57:14   or using the iPad without using the pencil.

00:57:16   And of course there's nowhere to put it on the iPad

00:57:18   or around the iPad.

00:57:20   There's lots of problems that the pencil has.

00:57:22   The Logitech Crayon solves some of those

00:57:24   and it's kind of a shame that you have to rely on,

00:57:27   that Apple doesn't stoop down to the level

00:57:31   making something ergonomic with a button on it,

00:57:33   even though that would actually make it a better product

00:57:35   in some ways, but anyway.

00:57:36   Going back to this iPad, this iPad's a really good deal.

00:57:40   Like, you're getting a lot for this,

00:57:43   and if anything, I think it really highlights

00:57:47   how incredibly expensive the iPad Pro is

00:57:50   for what you're getting there.

00:57:51   Like, to get a decently equipped one of these,

00:57:53   which we'll get to in a little while,

00:57:55   you know, you're looking at 400 bucks,

00:57:57   you know, once you throw in some accessories, maybe more,

00:57:59   with the iPad Pro, you're looking at about 800.

00:58:01   And it's really, you're getting, for double the price,

00:58:06   you're getting a nicer and slightly larger screen,

00:58:11   the smart connector, which gives you the opportunity

00:58:15   to spend another $200 on the keyboard,

00:58:17   and a little bit better camera,

00:58:18   which a lot of people don't use

00:58:19   or don't care about on the iPad.

00:58:21   So it's like, the difference that you're getting is,

00:58:24   and it's not, I don't think it's a twice the price difference

00:58:28   to go from this to the iPad Pro.

00:58:31   And again, this is only gonna be for a few months

00:58:33   because presumably in June, they're probably going

00:58:35   to update the iPad Pro to make it even better.

00:58:38   But I do think this kind of illustrates

00:58:41   quite how expensive the iPad Pro is

00:58:45   compared to how expensive it needs to be.

00:58:48   'Cause this shows what they can do at 329.

00:58:51   - This iPad feels a little bit chintzy to me, though.

00:58:54   I understand it's gotta be a cut-down model.

00:58:56   It makes sense to have it in the product line.

00:58:58   think they should have a cheap iPad, setting aside education, just for regular people,

00:59:03   right?

00:59:04   But some of the cheaping out, like I've complained about this before, I really wish Apple would

00:59:09   make less expensive products that were not merely old parts or old, like a purpose-built

00:59:19   product to hit a much lower price point.

00:59:23   In this case, the one that really burns me is Touch ID, it doesn't have second-gen Touch

00:59:27   ID because that just feels like you're being it's like come on like I

00:59:31   understand I understand I don't need p3 color gamut I don't need promotion like

00:59:35   true tone yeah maybe smart connector okay maybe that's like a feature that

00:59:39   schools don't want or whatever camera sure by all means cheap out but the

00:59:42   touch ID you unlock it like it just it just it's like everything like we can't

00:59:47   have we can't have any nice things it's like it is if Apple was selling cheaper

00:59:51   imagine Apple sold lots of Macs if they were selling cheaper Macs with USB 2 in

00:59:55   them still, right? And it would be like, "Come on, at a certain point USB 2.0, isn't it more

00:59:59   expensive for you than USB 3.0?" Like, just, I know it's not quite the same thing, but

01:00:04   --

01:00:05   The USB-C cable that comes with all the MacBook Pros is a USB 2.0 cable.

01:00:07   Yeah, I just feel like you have to make the product not feel like you're getting second

01:00:14   class in everything. I feel like -- and this is a thing that Steve Jobs used to do, and

01:00:18   my impression from the outside is that basically through sheer force of will, because it's

01:00:22   it's what he wanted, is periodically it would update the whole line and it would expunge

01:00:27   some lesser thing from the entire line top to bottom. Even the cheapest one wouldn't

01:00:31   have things that Steve Jobs no longer likes. He'd love to refresh the whole line and say

01:00:35   "It's all gone." In the Tim Cook era, refreshing the whole line pretty much never happens.

01:00:41   You get new things at the top, but the middle and bottom is just like, it's like hand-me-downs

01:00:47   and secondhand stuff and just hanging out down there with yesterday's technology. You

01:00:51   We never get the clean sweep that you go through that says, "We have a whole new line of products

01:00:54   from super low price to super high price, and all of them," we talked about this before,

01:00:58   "look like a family and are brought up to some minimum standard."

01:01:02   So that second-gen Touch ID should be everywhere by now.

01:01:06   You should not have first-gen Touch ID.

01:01:07   It should be a relic of the past, but it's like, "Can we save an extra $1.50?"

01:01:11   Yes, we can keep shipping the old one.

01:01:13   No, don't keep shipping the old one.

01:01:17   the lowest end Apple product, I feel like has to be brought along with all the other

01:01:22   tech at some minimum level. I don't know. The product annoys me a little bit. I do agree

01:01:29   that it's great that it's there. It's much better than not having it at all, but I'm

01:01:33   not going to like it.

01:01:34   Tim Cook has no minimum standard. That's like if you look at, you know, you said like raise

01:01:39   everything to a minimum standard. He has no minimum. He will sell the oldest, lowest end

01:01:46   parts forever as long as there's still money to be made there.

01:01:52   I think if Apple was truly a premium company, if they really wanted that quality, and honestly,

01:01:57   and I don't say this often, if Steve was still there, I do not think they would be selling

01:02:02   anything today with a spinning disk or a non-retina screen.

01:02:06   - Yeah, as a product guy, as Steve so much was, and I attribute it to him because he

01:02:12   just had the last say in so many things. Once you have the new thing, you don't want anyone

01:02:17   to have the old thing anymore. Obviously price is a factor and you can't just make everyone

01:02:21   retina overnight, but once you see a retina screen, God, can you look at a non-retina

01:02:25   screen anymore? And as soon as that's feasible price-wise, you want to put that in everything.

01:02:30   Same thing with second-gen Touch ID. First-gen Touch ID, yeah, it's our first cut at it,

01:02:34   but once we get the second-gen one and the price comes down, once it gets close enough,

01:02:37   it's time to refresh the whole line and forget about first-gen Touch ID. You're never going

01:02:40   to see that in an Apple product again, everything is second gen. Just because you feel like

01:02:46   you want everyone to have your new thing. And yet, Tim does not seem to have that instinct.

01:02:51   He feels no kind of, I'm not going to say embarrassment, it's not shame or embarrassment,

01:02:57   it's too much. It's more like just when you make a new thing, you want everyone to see

01:03:02   the best thing that you have to offer. And again, obviously price comes into it. Everyone

01:03:05   can't get a P3 screen, everyone can't get ProMotion, right? But there's the trickle-down

01:03:09   effect.

01:03:10   And a product person would be like, "Boy, I can't wait until it's financially feasible

01:03:13   for me to offer P3 displays on all our products.

01:03:16   When is that going to happen?

01:03:17   Give me a timeline.

01:03:18   Five years from now or whatever, let's go for that because that will be a milestone.

01:03:22   Like we will have raised the bar on all of our products."

01:03:24   And Tim Cook is like, "I don't care if that ever happens.

01:03:26   Keep shipping the TN display on the MacBook Air with giant pixels and terrible color reproduction

01:03:31   as long as people buy it."

01:03:32   And that's not…

01:03:33   I don't like that.

01:03:34   This is a good time to bring up another point that we had in the notes here, which is that

01:03:38   Apple's still selling the iPad Mini 4 for $70 more

01:03:43   than this new iPad.

01:03:45   It has an A8. (laughs)

01:03:47   - As opposed to an A10.

01:03:48   (laughing)

01:03:51   - And yep, still selling it.

01:03:53   No end in sight and also no replacement in sight

01:03:56   for that product, even though I think people would buy it.

01:03:59   But--

01:04:00   - It's got an A8, no Apple Pencil support,

01:04:01   and a smaller display and it's $70 more.

01:04:03   This is another, this is an article from The Verge,

01:04:05   by the way, and this is another example

01:04:07   of Apple's product lines not being coherent.

01:04:10   Lay out all the iPads before me and explain to me

01:04:13   what the progression is through your line,

01:04:15   or what the use cases are.

01:04:17   And then you get to the iPad mini before you,

01:04:18   be like, "Mm, this is like for people

01:04:21   who want something smaller,

01:04:23   but want it to be two generations

01:04:24   behind our least expensive one and have no pencil support,

01:04:27   and I don't know."

01:04:28   Like, I mean, maybe they were in an in-between period,

01:04:30   but we used to say that in the beginning,

01:04:31   like, "Oh, this line is in a transition," right?

01:04:33   But now I feel like we have enough time to say,

01:04:36   all the lines are constantly in transition. They never get to their destination. They

01:04:40   never get to the point where there is a line that makes sense and that has good products

01:04:45   at all price points. It's always just this long tail of the residue of yesteryear falling

01:04:51   off the product line, or not falling off as the case may be.

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01:07:11   All right, let's move on and do some Ask ATP, shall we?

01:07:18   Let's start with Chris O'Riebo, who asks, "Which Apple product, when purchased from

01:07:22   Apple, including refurbished and clearance, provides the most value or functionality per

01:07:26   dollar?"

01:07:27   biggest bang for your buck? I don't have a good answer for this. I do. I do. Okay, good. Well,

01:07:36   we will get to you momentarily. My first, which is not good, is whatever the best iPhone is you can

01:07:46   buy. Because given all of the things that you can do with your phone and how amazing your phone

01:07:51   will be, get the best one you can. It'll be great bang for your buck. My second answer, which is

01:07:56   probably the better of the two is AirPods. They are expensive, but they provide—assuming

01:08:00   they fit in your ears—they provide me endless amounts of joy. I cannot speak highly enough

01:08:06   of the AirPods. So let's go to John, who will hopefully have a very quick answer, and

01:08:12   then Marco, you can take us home.

01:08:13   >> John

01:08:17   The AirPods is a good one, but I still feel like the OnePlus 1SX is too much. My answer

01:08:18   is the iPhone 8. I think the most expensive iPhone is too much. Like the iPhone 10, it's

01:08:22   It's not worth the price premium, but the iPhone 8 is a fantastic phone.

01:08:28   If the iPhone X didn't exist, the iPhone 8 would be a worthy top-end phone.

01:08:33   And because the iPhone X does exist, it can be less expensive.

01:08:36   And yeah, the iPhone 8 is still expensive, but it's a really great phone.

01:08:40   And I feel like it gets overlooked.

01:08:42   And the iPhone is Apple's best product.

01:08:44   They put their best stuff into it.

01:08:46   It has the highest success rate.

01:08:48   So I feel like that's the most bang for the buck, even though it is a hell of a lot of

01:08:51   the box is also a hell of a lot of bang.

01:08:54   - That's a really good pick, I will give you that.

01:08:57   Alright, so I kind of have multiple picks,

01:08:59   it depends on what category you're looking at.

01:09:00   I thought about stuff like AirPods,

01:09:02   but I wanted to just focus on computers, phones, and iPads.

01:09:06   So I'm not gonna say, well you know this one

01:09:08   lightning cable is the best bang for the buck

01:09:10   in the whole store.

01:09:12   - None of Apple's cables are the best bang for your buck.

01:09:13   - I know, actually I thought about that and looked,

01:09:15   I'm like no, there's nothing in these categories anyway.

01:09:18   And I also, I wanted to enforce some minimum standards

01:09:22   of making things usable.

01:09:24   And so iOS devices, I decided needed to have

01:09:28   at least 64 gigs of storage.

01:09:30   And for anything I picked that was an iPad,

01:09:33   it had to include a smart cover.

01:09:35   So that's 40 bucks to the iPad prices.

01:09:38   For the Mac, I thought at least a 256 gig SSD

01:09:42   or a one terabyte Fusion drive.

01:09:46   And if it's a USB-C model that I was considering,

01:09:48   I added a $100 allowance for adapters and hubs.

01:09:52   Because I truly, and I don't mean to go off

01:09:53   on the laptops again.

01:09:55   - There we go.

01:09:56   - I truly don't believe that the modern USB-C only laptops

01:10:00   are useful without having, you know,

01:10:03   50 to $100 worth of adapters and hubs for them.

01:10:06   In the same way that an iPad is not useful

01:10:08   without some kind of cover or case.

01:10:10   Anyway, so, in the iPhone category,

01:10:13   which I think is my overall category probably,

01:10:16   because iPhones are just so damn useful

01:10:18   so damn good.

01:10:19   I actually picked the iPhone 7 128 Jet Black.

01:10:23   This goes for 650 new or 590 currently refurbished

01:10:27   from Apple.com.

01:10:28   You know, it looks like the iPhone SE 128, that's 450.

01:10:31   That's only new, there's no refurbished for that.

01:10:33   So 450 for the iPhone SE or 590 for an iPhone 7 refurb.

01:10:38   That is such a good phone.

01:10:40   I like it better than the 8 because one of the,

01:10:42   you know, the great advantage of the Jet Black

01:10:44   is you don't really need a case

01:10:45   'cause there's so much grip on it

01:10:46   and I think it looks better, honestly.

01:10:48   than the 8 does and it's still a really solid modern internal phone that's literally the

01:10:53   CPU that just put in this new iPad we were just talking about. So the iPhone 7 128 JetBlack

01:10:59   new or refurb I think is the best buy right now in the iPhone lineup and possibly the

01:11:03   entire Apple lineup. I will also say in the iPad lineup that new iPad, the new 9.7 iPad

01:11:09   128 gigs with Smart Cover is 470. That's a really good deal. You can also get last year's

01:11:16   version of it with Smart Cover refurbished for $350.

01:11:20   That's an excellent deal.

01:11:21   And you can get the cellular version of last year's model

01:11:25   of that 9.7 in 128 for $450 refurbished.

01:11:29   That's, a cellular iPad, I really enjoy a cellular iPad

01:11:33   because if you're talking about like what's gonna be,

01:11:36   how can I make this thing the most useful to me,

01:11:38   adding cellular really helps a lot.

01:11:40   This is one of the reasons why I wish they'd added

01:11:41   it to the laptops because it really makes this like

01:11:44   a truly portable work device.

01:11:46   It's just like a giant phone then,

01:11:48   and it's really very nice to have that sometimes.

01:11:51   In the laptop category, if you are limiting yourself

01:11:56   to the only modern 2016 forward MacBooks,

01:12:01   the 13-inch MacBook Escape with 256 giga SSD

01:12:06   is 1600 new or 1370 refurb,

01:12:10   both of those include that $100 allowance

01:12:12   and hubs.

01:12:13   If you don't need retina, the 13 inch MacBook Air

01:12:17   is still sold.

01:12:18   256 gives you 1200 new or 980 refurb.

01:12:21   - I can't pay 900 dollars for anything with that screen

01:12:25   on it.

01:12:26   - I know, and that's why I had this as like a huge caveat.

01:12:29   If you don't need or care about retina,

01:12:31   that's a really great buy.

01:12:33   - It's not the retina, it's the viewing angles

01:12:35   and color reproduction.

01:12:36   I just think it's a bad screen.

01:12:38   - Well, I think if you don't care about retina,

01:12:40   you're probably not gonna care about that either.

01:12:41   either. Oh, and for desktop, you know, 4K iMac I think, 8, 1 terabyte Fusion, 4K iMac

01:12:47   is 1400 new, 1270 refurb, that's the way to go on that. However, I think the best Mac

01:12:52   value is, to nobody's surprise, the 2015, 15 inch MacBook Pro base model.

01:13:00   - Oh, here we go.

01:13:01   - It's 2000 new or it's 1700 refurb. For 1700 refurb, you get a hell of a computer. You

01:13:10   You get 16 gigs of RAM, which none of the other ones

01:13:12   offer at these prices, 256 of course, quad core processor,

01:13:16   and then you have all the ports you need,

01:13:18   you have a keyboard and trackpad

01:13:19   that are non-controversial and reliable,

01:13:21   you don't need any dongles or anything.

01:13:23   That is still, I think, the best overall value

01:13:26   in the Mac lineup.

01:13:28   So, overall, iPhone 7, Jet Black,

01:13:33   and the 2015 15-inch base model.

01:13:36   - I've got that iPhone, and I think the 8 is a better deal.

01:13:40   Maybe it's because I just checked my battery health and it's at 87% and I felt worse about

01:13:43   my phone.

01:13:44   [laughter]

01:13:45   Womp womp.

01:13:47   Alright, cool.

01:13:49   Anson Jablinski writes, "Hey, what did Marco play in marching band, or what musical experience

01:13:54   does each of the hosts have, if any?"

01:13:56   So Marco, what did you play in marching band?

01:13:58   I was in the percussion section.

01:14:00   So I started out as a freshman on Crash Symbols, right at the bottom of the totem pole there.

01:14:05   And then sophomore year I was on snare drum.

01:14:08   Junior and senior year I was on quads.

01:14:10   - Fair enough.

01:14:11   I have never played anything

01:14:12   with any sort of efficacy whatsoever,

01:14:14   except I play a mean stereo.

01:14:16   Nevermind.

01:14:19   John.

01:14:19   - I played keyboards as a kid.

01:14:22   We had like electric keyboards in the house.

01:14:23   I noodled around in those.

01:14:24   I did actually take piano lessons

01:14:26   for some short period of time,

01:14:28   but I could play songs that I wanted to play,

01:14:32   like from the radio and stuff on keyboards.

01:14:35   And in college, I picked up a guitar

01:14:37   because everybody on my floor in my dorm, my freshman dorm, had guitars, and so it was

01:14:42   impossible not to pick up a guitar. All of those instruments I'm pretty much terrible

01:14:46   at. And I could never sight-read music, but I could kind of non-sight-read it briefly

01:14:52   for certain instruments.

01:14:54   Moving on, The Italian Stallion, who is apparently not John Siracusa, asks, "Backpack recommendations?

01:15:00   That would fit a 15-inch MacBook Pro." I know you just said backpack, but if you don't

01:15:05   to have a backpack. I really love my Tom Bihn Cadet, which I'll put a link in the show notes

01:15:11   to my review of that. I've also heard but have not tried myself that the Tom Bihn Synapse

01:15:16   is excellent, and that is a backpack, but that's probably not useful. So does one of

01:15:22   you have a backpack recommendation that you enjoy?

01:15:24   - I have, so to me, backpacks are kind of like the way most people think of to-do apps

01:15:30   and like, you know, task managers.

01:15:33   I'm always about 80% satisfied with the backpack I have,

01:15:37   and I'm frequently trying new ones as a result.

01:15:39   (laughs)

01:15:40   And so I have tried some really nice ones, actually.

01:15:44   You know, some of these are wonderful.

01:15:46   I have the Waterfield Designs Stad laptop backpack.

01:15:51   They make a bunch of good stuff,

01:15:53   and that's very good, holds a 15 inch just fine.

01:15:57   I have a really nice Briggs & Riley backpack.

01:16:02   That was something like 200 bucks,

01:16:04   and I forget exactly which model it is,

01:16:07   one of the Active series.

01:16:08   That's pretty nice too.

01:16:10   I recently got a Peak Design Everyday backpack,

01:16:14   and that's also really nice.

01:16:16   Ultimately, all of these are very good.

01:16:21   None of them are perfect.

01:16:22   I have not yet tried Tom Bihn.

01:16:24   I believe the Synapse 25 would be the one to get.

01:16:26   I was looking at that.

01:16:28   I would love to see it sometime.

01:16:30   I might end up trying it anyway,

01:16:32   but all of these have pluses and minuses,

01:16:36   and it depends a lot on what you're doing.

01:16:39   If you're using it for every day carrying it to work,

01:16:42   that's a very different type of needs

01:16:45   from if you're using it to bring it on planes

01:16:48   and travel with it or to also have

01:16:50   a weekend worth of clothing and stuff in it.

01:16:52   These are very different needs.

01:16:54   The Waterfield one is beautiful, very stylish, trendy,

01:16:58   looks nice.

01:16:59   The Briggs & Morale one I found has a lot of pluses to it,

01:17:04   but ultimately I didn't care for the layout

01:17:09   of the interior space.

01:17:11   A lot of things are hard to reach, hard to access.

01:17:14   There's a lot of seemingly wasted space

01:17:15   with weird padding areas and stuff

01:17:17   that I don't think need to be there

01:17:19   or should be arranged differently.

01:17:21   The Peak Design Everyday Backpack is my current one.

01:17:24   I've got it recently.

01:17:26   And it also is very nice with a few flaws.

01:17:30   It really does not hold very much.

01:17:32   I got the smaller one of the two

01:17:33   and I'm kind of thinking maybe the bigger one

01:17:35   might have been the better bet.

01:17:37   It's fine in that way, but it holds plenty

01:17:42   if you want it to be like a laptop bag going to work.

01:17:45   I would say though for a 15 inch MacBook Pro,

01:17:48   it just barely fits in the Peak Design.

01:17:50   Like the laptop pocket is very tight.

01:17:52   It's squeezing my laptop such that

01:17:54   I'm getting keyboard imprints on the screen.

01:17:56   So I don't love that.

01:17:58   I honestly would not recommend it for daily use

01:18:01   if only for that.

01:18:02   Whereas the Waterfield Stad I think is better for that.

01:18:07   But at these prices, I expect perfection

01:18:12   to pay $300-ish for a backpack,

01:18:15   and I haven't found that yet.

01:18:17   So I'm all ears if anybody has something else they like.

01:18:19   but ultimately I think that it's the kind of category

01:18:22   where what's perfect for one person

01:18:24   is gonna be totally wrong for another person

01:18:26   and it's all gonna be personal preference

01:18:28   and you just gotta try it out and see for yourself.

01:18:30   - Yeah, yeah.

01:18:32   - So the closest I've got to a backpack that I really like

01:18:35   is actually it's not sold anymore but there's an equivalent.

01:18:38   Is this L.L. Bean backpack.

01:18:40   I don't know what that model of mine is

01:18:41   but the closest one they have is now called

01:18:43   the Quad backpack and it's so close.

01:18:45   I like backpacks, first of all that are cheap,

01:18:47   this is like 80 bucks,

01:18:49   that have tons of little pockets everywhere on them.

01:18:51   So you can put all those dongles that we need

01:18:53   in this dongle lifestyle that we have now.

01:18:55   It's got an inside pocket that will fit any,

01:18:58   fit a 15 inch laptop and it also an iPad inside a case

01:19:02   inside that same pocket.

01:19:03   And then it's got tons of other interior space

01:19:05   and all sorts of little pockets.

01:19:06   And it's kind of, it's not fashionable.

01:19:08   It's not made of nice materials.

01:19:10   It's just kind of like durable,

01:19:11   kind of like camping type equipment, right?

01:19:13   It's not, there's no leather anywhere on this thing, right?

01:19:16   So if you want to look good, forget about it.

01:19:18   The one thing that annoys me about this backpack that you should be warned about is that it

01:19:22   has tons of weird straps everywhere.

01:19:24   Like, "Oh, if you're stuffing it filled with camping stuff, you need the strap that goes

01:19:27   around your waist and the straps, the two straps on the side that hold the backpack

01:19:31   together."

01:19:32   And I considered cutting them off, but it's actually kind of hard to cut them off because

01:19:34   it's pretty durable.

01:19:35   So, but I have found a way to tuck the straps that I'm not using into some of the pockets

01:19:40   so they're mostly out of the way.

01:19:41   It's still an annoyance.

01:19:42   If it didn't have those straps, I think it would be close to perfect for me because that's

01:19:46   That's what I want. I want to be cheap, durable, light, and have tons of pockets and zippers

01:19:50   and not fall apart. So far, this L.L. Bean backpack has fit the bill.

01:19:55   I will say too, for the Peak Design Everyday Backpack, it really excels at hiding all of

01:20:00   the extra straps and stuff that can be used in a pinch. Every strap that it has, has some

01:20:05   kind of pocket that it belongs in when it's not being used. And so it's totally invisible

01:20:11   and out of the way.

01:20:12   It is very well designed for expansion of that,

01:20:16   but yeah, ultimately, I wish it was a little bigger.

01:20:19   So I might have to try the bigger version of it,

01:20:21   and I also wish that laptop compartment wasn't so crushing,

01:20:24   but hopefully this summer I'll move to a 13-inch newer one,

01:20:27   and that should probably solve that problem for me.

01:20:30   Do you guys do packing cubes when you travel?

01:20:34   - No. - Not in the traditional sense.

01:20:36   I do have that Go pack that I talk about all the time

01:20:38   is sort of ish like a packing cube that's just basically got all my dongles and things

01:20:44   of that nature in it.

01:20:45   But what you're talking about I think is, you know, packing like clothes and other things

01:20:49   of that nature in packing cubes.

01:20:51   And this appeals to me from an organizational standpoint.

01:20:55   I feel like this is something that I would really like, but I've never done it.

01:20:59   And it doesn't seem like I don't really get why people would do this, even though it sounds

01:21:05   like it would be something I would like.

01:21:06   You know what I mean?

01:21:07   Are you asking because you haven't or because you're trying it now or what brings this up?

01:21:12   So I recently started. A lot of our friends travel a lot, way more than I do, and I kept hearing from people like,

01:21:19   "Oh, you got to try packing cubes," or just generally like the style of traveling or packing where you have like sub bags in your bags.

01:21:27   You know, all packing cubes are are just like, you know, rectangular solid sub bags that you put in your bags.

01:21:34   That's basically it. And so,

01:21:37   I was usually of the style of using the bag's pockets

01:21:41   as dividers and compartments,

01:21:46   but the packing cube and sub-bag lifestyle

01:21:49   seems to want to have just like large, open compartments

01:21:54   in the bags, and then you have your own sub-bag things

01:21:57   that you put in there that are separate from that

01:22:01   to be your separation organization.

01:22:03   And so I recently tried, I wanted to,

01:22:06   when I got my cool Peak Design Everyday backpack,

01:22:08   I decided to also try the packing cube lifestyle

01:22:11   for a couple of these trips I've taken recently.

01:22:13   And I gotta say, I see the benefit.

01:22:15   It's pretty cool.

01:22:16   Like, Tiff made fun of me relentlessly,

01:22:17   but then she wanted some as soon as she saw how they worked.

01:22:20   Because what's nice about them is that

01:22:23   there's a few benefits.

01:22:24   Number one, like, it is actually nicer

01:22:26   to organize things that way in a bag.

01:22:29   And if you get the compression cubes,

01:22:31   which have like slightly compressing zippers

01:22:33   around the perimeter, it actually does help

01:22:35   you can press your clothes slightly in a controlled way

01:22:37   that doesn't like, you know,

01:22:38   excessively wrinkle them or anything.

01:22:40   But a really nice thing about the packing cubes is that

01:22:42   if, when you arrive at a hotel,

01:22:45   you can just take the packing cubes right out of your bag

01:22:47   and just place them like in the drawers,

01:22:49   if you use the drawers in a hotel.

01:22:51   You just put them in the drawers and open them up

01:22:52   and then you have like, oh, here's my sock rectangle,

01:22:55   you know, here's my shirt rectangle.

01:22:57   And it's like, it's actually really nice.

01:23:01   And so I think I've been converted.

01:23:03   I wanna do a little more traveling with them.

01:23:04   I've done two trips so far with them,

01:23:07   but I think I'm being converted to the sub-bag

01:23:10   and packing cube lifestyle.

01:23:13   - So you said you have one for socks and one for shirts?

01:23:16   What did you end up doing?

01:23:18   - So I got a variety of sizes.

01:23:21   If you're looking at the Eagle Creek ones,

01:23:23   I would say the small and medium sizes are the ones to get.

01:23:26   The rest of the sizes I have not yet found much of a use for.

01:23:30   So small, medium, and compression, if possible.

01:23:32   And they're not cheap.

01:23:34   They end up being like 25 bucks each, something like that.

01:23:37   But they do seem pretty well made.

01:23:39   I have the tech line that has slightly higher tech fabric

01:23:42   and it's a little bit lighter.

01:23:43   I haven't quite worked with the whole system yet,

01:23:45   but I have one of them will basically put

01:23:47   all my underwear and socks in.

01:23:49   And this depends on how much you need to bring.

01:23:51   And I've only, again, used this for two trips so far,

01:23:53   so take all this with a grain of salt.

01:23:54   But all underwear and socks will go in one,

01:23:56   and then all t-shirts will go in another.

01:23:58   And then if I have extra pants, I'll put those in one.

01:24:02   And that's about it.

01:24:03   They have some that you can fold dress shirts into.

01:24:06   I haven't tried that yet.

01:24:07   It's just kind of nice and then it makes it easier to pack.

01:24:12   It makes it more organized in the bag to get stuff

01:24:16   or if you have to move stuff around in the bag,

01:24:17   if you have to rearrange stuff.

01:24:18   It's surprisingly nice.

01:24:20   I thought they were pointless,

01:24:21   but now I get it and I'm sold.

01:24:24   - You know, I've tried a new thought technology

01:24:28   with regard to packing,

01:24:29   which is rolling rather than folding.

01:24:31   - Oh, the rolling people.

01:24:32   - Oh yeah, you roll the stuff into the packing cubes.

01:24:34   That helps a lot.

01:24:36   - I feel like it's probably a placebo,

01:24:39   but I really feel like I can get considerably more stuff

01:24:43   into my bag when it's rolled,

01:24:44   and it's more likely to come out less wrinkled.

01:24:48   It is still a wrinkled disaster,

01:24:49   but it is less so than when I fold.

01:24:53   And so I have been converted to the rolling lifestyle.

01:24:57   Like I said, that's a new thought technology in my world

01:24:59   that I have embraced.

01:25:00   But yeah, the packing cube is still beyond me.

01:25:03   Jon, why do you scoff at rolling?

01:25:05   You're not a fan?

01:25:07   There's a couple of reasons.

01:25:10   I'm not into rolling and I'm not into the packing things.

01:25:14   The rolling, well, it's both the same reason, I guess.

01:25:18   And I feel like all of my items of clothing have a natural size that they want to be folded

01:25:23   at.

01:25:24   And that size is not rolled, and it probably doesn't match any of the packing things.

01:25:29   Like I need to fold things at the size that they want it to be folded.

01:25:33   They speak to me.

01:25:34   Like how big should I be?

01:25:35   And if I try to fold my shirts bigger or smaller, maybe it's because I'm a limited folder.

01:25:40   Maybe I have a limited repertoire of folding skills.

01:25:42   Like I'm not good at folding laundry.

01:25:43   I fold things the way I fold them and I let the garment tell me how it wants to be folded.

01:25:48   And the other thing is with my let the garment speak to me and tell me how to fold, combined

01:25:52   with my fairly obsessive overpacking, I can pack any of my suitcases easily to the point

01:26:00   where they exceed the weight limit that airlines have.

01:26:02   So I don't need any compression thing to help me get more into the bag.

01:26:06   If anything, I have to intentionally pack less efficiently so I don't go over the weight

01:26:09   limit and have to pull things out of my bag to get it on the plane.

01:26:13   Because the weight limits are like, what, 50 pounds, 40, 50 pounds?

01:26:16   Well, it's not a weight limit so much as there's a fee if you go over it.

01:26:19   Yeah.

01:26:20   Anyway, I don't want to have that fee and I don't want to go over the limit.

01:26:22   And sometimes it actually is a limit and they'll make you have another – check another bag

01:26:25   or something.

01:26:27   So I am always on the ragged edge of that limit with no packing cubes and no rolling

01:26:32   and folding my clothes the way they naturally want to be folded.

01:26:35   So I feel like this is not a problem I have in my life and I'm not looking for ways

01:26:38   to jam more stuff into my suitcase and I'm definitely not looking for ways to make me

01:26:42   have to learn how to fold my clothes in a different way than the one and only way I

01:26:45   know how to fold them.

01:26:46   Well, it is really nice if – like if you're checking a bag, then yeah, you're right.

01:26:49   the weight limit is usually a bigger problem.

01:26:51   But it's really nice if you are kind of on the border

01:26:54   between needing to check it

01:26:55   and being able to fit it in a carry-on.

01:26:57   And I love just traveling with a carry-on if possible.

01:26:59   - Oh, yeah. - It's so nice

01:27:00   to just bypass the baggage claim

01:27:02   and just walk around it, just leave.

01:27:04   And you're just done.

01:27:05   You have everything you need with you.

01:27:07   You can just walk out and you're done.

01:27:08   Like, that's wonderful.

01:27:09   So where this stuff helps is not in cramming 75 pounds

01:27:14   worth of stuff into a very large check bag,

01:27:17   but in fitting into a carry-on where otherwise

01:27:20   you might not have fit into a carry-on.

01:27:22   - Or of your underscore, not even having a carry-on,

01:27:25   but just having a backpack for an entire week,

01:27:28   which just still blows my mind, 'cause like I said,

01:27:30   I'm a massive over-packer and he apparently

01:27:33   needs no human sustenance of any kind.

01:27:35   I can just-- (laughing)

01:27:37   - It is very satisfying to be packed very lightly on a trip

01:27:42   and to need very little and to use everything you have.

01:27:44   I actually, I tried, one of the trips I just took

01:27:47   was this trip where I was helping my family member move.

01:27:51   And because I was gonna be taking space

01:27:53   in a very full moving convoy of trucks,

01:27:57   I didn't wanna have a large bag myself.

01:27:59   I figured that was wasteful and I wanna leave

01:28:01   as much space as possible for his stuff.

01:28:03   - You've got a whole moving truck.

01:28:04   You're afraid you aren't gonna have room?

01:28:05   You have a moving truck.

01:28:06   - Oh, you haven't seen this stuff.

01:28:08   But it was full.

01:28:10   And so I brought, for this trip,

01:28:12   I brought only my Peak Design Everyday Backpack.

01:28:15   and I shoved everything I needed for three days,

01:28:18   or four days, whatever it was, into this backpack.

01:28:22   It was glorious.

01:28:23   Like, there was no space left over,

01:28:25   and I had to do some pretty crazy stuff,

01:28:26   and I only had one pair of pants.

01:28:28   But it was glorious to have everything fit

01:28:32   in like one backpack, including my computer,

01:28:36   these two walkie-talkies, some accessories for driving,

01:28:39   like I brought like my cell phone suction cup

01:28:40   piece of garbage, like I brought a whole bunch of like,

01:28:43   you know, stuff that would be necessary for the trip.

01:28:46   - Coffee tubes.

01:28:46   - Yeah, I brought my tubes of instant coffee,

01:28:49   my tubes of Southern Coffee.

01:28:50   (laughing)

01:28:52   - So now does all your items of clothing smell like coffee?

01:28:54   'Cause they're all wedged into this bag

01:28:56   with the coffee tubes?

01:28:57   - No, the tubes are sealed.

01:28:58   - All right, I don't know.

01:28:59   - No. - You said they were canvas.

01:29:00   I thought maybe they'd be--

01:29:01   - No, no, there are plastic tubes

01:29:02   that come in a pretty canvas bag.

01:29:04   - Mm, all right.

01:29:05   - Yeah, and it is very satisfying.

01:29:08   I would love, like, to travel to WVDC,

01:29:10   I would love to travel with just like

01:29:12   one of the smallest roller bag size,

01:29:15   you know, that the pilots usually have.

01:29:17   I have one of those, it's glorious.

01:29:19   I love being able to fit into that.

01:29:20   The only reason I don't for WWDC is that we bring

01:29:24   like a whole podcast studio, so I have all this gear.

01:29:27   But like on trips where I don't have that,

01:29:29   I love packing the smallest possible.

01:29:31   - Should I ask Skynyrskur, maybe he can fit

01:29:33   the podcasting studio in one of his inside jacket pockets.

01:29:35   (laughing)

01:29:36   - Probably.

01:29:37   (laughing)

01:29:38   - No, I really wanna just emphasize

01:29:42   what you guys are saying about Underscore's packing, because we for a long time would fly out together.

01:29:46   I would drive up to Dulles, which is which is reasonably close to his house,

01:29:50   and we would take the same flight and try to sit next to each other and whatnot. And I would be rolling in with like

01:29:55   my laptop bag, which is bursting at the seams, and in a carry-on bag, which was bursting at the seams. And

01:30:01   that pain in my rear end rolls in with like a lightly stuffed backpack.

01:30:06   It's not even, I shouldn't even say "stop," like a lightly packed backpack. And that is all he has.

01:30:11   That's his computer. That's his toiletries his luggage everything is in this backpack for a week. It's inhuman

01:30:19   I've asked him about this every year. I asked about this and every year

01:30:23   He's just he's kind of shrugs and smirks and basically says I don't need a lot

01:30:26   It's so it's both delightful and infuriating all at the same time because I'm like John

01:30:32   I pack way too much and over the years. I have gotten that beaten out of me like over time

01:30:37   I've gotten better about not packing everything in the world and I still pack way too much

01:30:42   What you just described is half of what I pack because he were like you have a laptop bag and a roller bag

01:30:47   I have a full-size suitcase like the biggest the highest weight limit suitcase you can get and then my backpack. I

01:30:53   mean I

01:30:56   Adore my away suitcase and they happen to be sponsoring this episode and they carry on I mean, it's a wonderful wonderful suitcase

01:31:02   I would say that even if we weren't compensated to say that but it is not you know

01:31:07   cavernous it's it's it's it's carry-on I mean which makes sense and I can get you

01:31:13   know like a little last year I got my entire week's worth of luggage my

01:31:17   toiletry kit my my go pack and a pair of running shoes in there and I was very

01:31:21   proud of myself because for me that was a heck of an accomplishment and

01:31:24   underscore I think he was wearing you know sneakers for the for the week so he

01:31:29   didn't have to have a second pair of shoes but he had like running clothes he

01:31:33   He probably brought a damn kettle for his coffee for all I know in this backpack.

01:31:38   It's like Santa's freaking bag that he has.

01:31:41   It's incredible.

01:31:42   So thanks to our sponsors this week, Away, Aftershocks, and Jamf Now.

01:31:48   And we'll talk to you next week.

01:31:49   Now the show is over.

01:31:52   They didn't even mean to begin.

01:31:55   Cause it was accidental.

01:31:57   Oh it was accidental.

01:31:59   John didn't even know.

01:32:01   John didn't do any research, Margo and Casey wouldn't let him

01:32:07   'Cause it was accidental, it was accidental

01:32:12   And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM

01:32:17   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them

01:32:22   M A R C O A R M

01:32:32   N T Marko R M S I R

01:32:35   A C U S A Syracuse

01:32:39   It's accidental They didn't mean to

01:32:45   Accidental Tech broadcast so long

01:32:52   - By the way, for people wondering about

01:32:53   the inside jacket pocket thing,

01:32:55   Underscore is the first person I saw

01:32:56   who had a MacBook One, the little 12 inch MacBook

01:33:00   with one USB-C port, literally inside his jacket pocket.

01:33:04   (laughing)

01:33:04   - This is not a joke.

01:33:05   - Like, opens up his jacket and takes out a laptop.

01:33:07   - Yeah, his wife custom made a pocket,

01:33:09   she sewed it on the inside of his jacket,

01:33:11   that would fit exactly that laptop.

01:33:13   And it was amazing.

01:33:15   To see somebody, especially Underscore,

01:33:17   as you mentioned, he's so frustratingly organized

01:33:21   all the time, he's so together.

01:33:24   (laughs)

01:33:25   And everything he does, he makes it look effortless.

01:33:29   It's just no big deal.

01:33:31   - So true.

01:33:32   - It's so true.

01:33:33   - He has all the grace in the world.

01:33:35   And so we were standing in line at the last WBC

01:33:38   in San Francisco, we were outside the whatever center

01:33:43   that we had to walk all the way over to get there.

01:33:46   And he just whips this out, we were like,

01:33:49   "Oh, we should check that sometime."

01:33:51   He goes, he's like, "Oh, I'll check it right now."

01:33:53   And he whips out this laptop out of his jacket.

01:33:55   We're like, "Whoa! How did you do that?

01:33:58   "Where did that come from?"

01:33:59   - It was so, I think it's--

01:34:00   - We've been walking with him,

01:34:01   standing in line with him, it's like, you know.

01:34:03   - Yeah, we had no idea.

01:34:04   And it was like a fleece.

01:34:06   It was not like a big winter coat.

01:34:07   It was like a light fleece.

01:34:09   - Oh, man.

01:34:10   I love that guy, but there's certain times

01:34:12   that I wanna strangle him in the best possible way,

01:34:15   and that's one of them, because I'm, it's really,

01:34:17   you know what it is about Underscore is that

01:34:18   He very, very well reflects to me my own failings,

01:34:23   but he's like the nicest human being in the world,

01:34:28   so you can't be upset at him,

01:34:30   'cause he's the nicest guy ever.

01:34:31   - Yeah, did I ever say,

01:34:34   my favorite compliment I ever received was,

01:34:36   I had sent John Gruber some of my home roasted coffee.

01:34:39   He said, "I almost wanna say,

01:34:41   "fuck you, this is so good."

01:34:42   (laughing)

01:34:43   And that's kinda how,

01:34:44   it's like when Underscore does something awesome,

01:34:46   and I'm like, it's almost like,

01:34:48   He's such a nice guy, like you can't get mad at him, but you're just like, "Damn it! Why, like, why can I not?

01:34:53   Why have I either not thought of that or not gotten it together to do that?"

01:34:56   [laughs]

01:34:57   So true. So true.

01:34:59   Just comfort yourself by thinking that, just try to picture in your head, underscore, like, being frustrated at something and getting angry.

01:35:07   I don't think I've ever seen him even mildly, like, disturbed.

01:35:13   like he's never been particularly angry about anything in my experience having known him

01:35:18   for several years now. I've never seen him angry, never seen him particularly upset.

01:35:23   Sometimes he'll kind of do the exasperated laugh of, "Oh, well, that ends the breaks."

01:35:26   But he's like the least phased person I've ever seen. And I am somewhat skeptical that

01:35:35   he has ever raised his voice for any reason ever.

01:35:37   I believe he has, and I picture that to make me feel better about myself.

01:35:44   The best part of all is, he's going to be listening to this at some absurd hour tomorrow

01:35:47   morning because he typically bootlegs all this, and he is going to be so deeply embarrassed

01:35:51   by this entire conversation, which isn't actually something I should be proud of, but

01:35:55   it is making me laugh a little bit. Maybe that's his one flaw. That's the one.

01:36:00   His one flaw? Excessive modesty? Wow.

01:36:03   (laughing)

01:36:05   - It's like the BS job interview responses,

01:36:08   what's your biggest weakness?

01:36:10   Well sometimes that works too hard.

01:36:11   - That works too hard.

01:36:12   (laughing)

01:36:14   - Oh God, that's incredible.

01:36:16   (beeping)