263: Old Potato


00:00:00   Meanwhile Adam's upstairs right now having nightmares about all potatoes.

00:00:04   Alright, so as usual we should start with some follow-up and I shouldn't be excited about this one and only follow-up item.

00:00:15   And I shouldn't be excited because it's about boring big business stuff, but I'm actually kind of excited about this because it's some news about Nomad.

00:00:25   So tell me about what Nomad is, what problem it's supposed to solve, and whether or not it solves it.

00:00:29   Last time we talked about this, it was like me complaining that I got a new computer at work,

00:00:34   and my new computer was on the Active Directory network, and it was a Mac.

00:00:37   And I was complaining about how it seemed like being on the Active Directory network

00:00:43   was making lots of things about my Mac worse, and I was sad about it.

00:00:47   And then in follow-up on the subsequent shows, a lot of people sent us information about this

00:00:52   this thing called Nomad, they said, "Hey, you should try this." I think the story I

00:00:56   was told by a couple of people in feedback was like, "Apple's Active Directory support

00:01:01   is not great in macOS and it never really has been." And there was like a consulting

00:01:07   wing of Apple that would like come to your company and help you set up all your Macs

00:01:12   for your big, you know, enterprise or whatever. And the consulting company recognizing Apple's

00:01:20   Active Directory stuff wasn't that good, but also recognizing that they weren't in a position

00:01:26   to make it better, came up with a system, just like a series of shell scripts and other

00:01:35   little programs and stuff that would try to give you the effects of Active Directory without

00:01:39   actually being Active Directory, and that they would pitch that to their clients.

00:01:45   My recollection was that this is an Apple, not just a consultant, but actually part of

00:01:51   Apple going to help people.

00:01:53   And this part of Apple, because it wasn't empowered to change macOS, was doing this

00:01:58   other thing and giving it to clients.

00:01:59   I don't know if I got that part right.

00:02:00   But anyway, we will put the link in the show notes.

00:02:03   They have a .menu domain.

00:02:05   Nomad.menu, which I think is not good.

00:02:10   You can look at their website and read about what it does.

00:02:14   There's a blog post from another company that does Mac-related enterprise stuff that basically

00:02:20   is saying it gives you the experience of Active Directory without requiring, as they put it,

00:02:24   a bind to AD.

00:02:26   So you're not constantly connected to Active Directory.

00:02:29   And all the things that I thought were making my Mac slower, like me trying to wake it up

00:02:33   from sleep and getting to the point where I can enter my password to unlock my computer

00:02:37   or random spinners before it will allow me to have network access and stuff like that

00:02:43   But in theory this thing would help.

00:02:44   So I took that feedback and said, "Yeah, that sounds kind of neat, but it's not like I have

00:02:49   any control over when or if it's going to happen."

00:02:51   But I had a pleasant surprise a couple weeks ago, and my work started doing a trial of

00:02:58   this.

00:02:59   And I asked if people wanted to sign up, and I said yes.

00:03:01   And like a day or two later, some Active Directory stuff disappeared from my Mac, and this Nomad

00:03:06   stuff appeared.

00:03:08   And so I got to try it.

00:03:09   And I have to say, I'm about a week in here, it feels like a lot of the things that seem

00:03:14   stupidly slow are not stupidly slow anymore.

00:03:18   It is much faster for me to – when I wake my computer up or whatever, to get to the

00:03:23   point where it lets me enter my password.

00:03:26   The computer unlocks faster and I feel less like hangs for no reason.

00:03:31   So I'm pretty happy with it so far.

00:03:34   This also lets me know that my complaints about Touch ID on the Mac were not related

00:03:38   to Active Directory because now I'm not on Active Directory anymore and still Touch ID

00:03:43   on my 2017 15-inch MacBook Pro.

00:03:47   Like when I want to unlock my computer, sometimes the screen will say, "Enter your password

00:03:50   or do Touch ID."

00:03:51   And that's what the screen says.

00:03:54   But me repeatedly putting my finger on the Touch ID thing is telling me that it is not

00:03:58   reading my finger.

00:04:00   It's not like it's failing.

00:04:01   It just doesn't care my finger is there at all.

00:04:03   It doesn't have the little "put your finger here" arrow animation.

00:04:07   It's just completely blank and putting your finger there as many times as you want doesn't

00:04:11   work.

00:04:12   When it does work, it's great, but when it doesn't work, it makes me sit there with my

00:04:14   finger on the stupid thing and putting it up and down until I realize, "Oh, I have to

00:04:17   type my password.

00:04:18   Why do I have to type my password this time?"

00:04:20   Who knows.

00:04:21   But anyway, I'm guessing it's not Active Directory related.

00:04:23   That's interesting.

00:04:25   My work has been grumbly about Active Directory stuff, and so we've kicked around the idea

00:04:31   of Nomad, but none of us really knew much about it.

00:04:34   So I will have to point my IT people to this episode at the beginning of it.

00:04:39   So hi Rory, this was for you, even though you didn't know it.

00:04:43   But we'll definitely have to check that out, that's super cool.

00:04:44   Because the advantage of being in a place that's only 500 or so people is that there's

00:04:49   an IT group of maybe 5 to 10 people, which means I can actually somewhat influence this

00:04:56   decision making, insofar as if I put in a good word, that's a positive thing.

00:05:01   So cool, no I'm glad it's working out well.

00:05:03   Any other follow-up?

00:05:04   Let me just have some preemptive real-time follow-up from the question from the chat

00:05:08   room.

00:05:09   Yes, I know that sometimes you have to actually press the touch ID button thingy to get it

00:05:12   to try to register.

00:05:13   I'd do that and it would just not register.

00:05:15   So sometimes it just is not in the mood to read my finger, and I don't know why, despite

00:05:21   the messages on the screen to the contrary.

00:05:23   I have some news.

00:05:26   We have another new child in the house.

00:05:29   We have adopted a child called Alexa.

00:05:31   That's not news, you told us that last week.

00:05:33   Oh, did I tell you that it was forthcoming?

00:05:35   Okay, I'd forgotten about that.

00:05:36   So yeah, so Alexa's here.

00:05:38   Now, remind me, John, in your household you are mostly on Google Home, is that right?

00:05:42   Yeah, I've got a regular Google Home, and I've got a mini Google Home,

00:05:45   and then I have the HomePod that we talked about last week.

00:05:48   Okay, and then what's going on in the Armit household?

00:05:50   You guys are all in on Alexa, is that right?

00:05:52   Oh yeah, she's my girl.

00:05:54   So this is the first time that I have ever had any sort of smart thing in my house. There's a joke

00:06:02   here. I see it. I don't care. It's the first time I've ever had any sort of smart assistant in the

00:06:07   house because Siri definitely does not count. So I had heard from other people talking about the

00:06:13   lady in the tube that she has skills and things and that you can add stuff onto her. And so I was

00:06:19   vaguely familiar with the ecosystem that I was trying to set up. So, you know, I got

00:06:24   the lady in a tube, I set it up, which was pretty straightforward, it's like, you know,

00:06:28   a Wemo light switch or something like that, you know, you connect to its Wi-Fi, it reads

00:06:32   your Wi-Fi, then everything reconnects to the regular Wi-Fi and things happen. This

00:06:36   is old news to probably 95% of the people listening. Anyway, I added a few skills and

00:06:42   it's cool. It works with Spotify, which is great. Doesn't sound like utter garbage, which

00:06:47   is surprising. I wouldn't say it sounds great, but it is listenable. I would not plan to

00:06:53   use it for music.

00:06:54   You got an Alexa and you're playing music on it. That's what you're doing. You got an

00:06:57   Alexa and you're playing music on it.

00:06:58   Well, no, no, no. I tried it just to see and it got surprisingly loud and it didn't sound

00:07:03   utterly terrible. Again, I would not say it sounds good.

00:07:06   She knows a lot of animal facts. You should ask her about animals.

00:07:09   I tried to install a skill. I don't remember what it was called. That's basically like

00:07:12   a quiz for Declan, you know, what animal makes this sound? And the one I found was clearly

00:07:18   written by someone who does not use English as their first language and it was just very

00:07:22   peculiar. So you don't have to answer right now. But if you have some sort of suggestions

00:07:27   about like toddler friendly games, which you guys may have gotten this too late, because

00:07:31   Adam may have been too old at that point. But if you do have suggestions,

00:07:34   Adam basically tells Alexa to play timber by Kesha. No. Yeah, yeah. Pitbull Kesha. Yeah,

00:07:40   Yeah, he likes that.

00:07:42   And he also likes Fireball.

00:07:44   He's always like, "Alexa, play Fireball by Pitbull."

00:07:47   So that's how he communicates with Alexa.

00:07:51   We're not really playing animal games.

00:07:53   We've passed that and we've moved on

00:07:54   to the inappropriate hip hop stage.

00:07:56   So it's fine for us.

00:07:59   But yeah, I mean, we had books and stuff for that,

00:08:04   that you hit the little, the sound animal buttons

00:08:07   on the side when you're old school,

00:08:09   like the ones that haunted Lex's house that one time.

00:08:13   If anyone remembers that.

00:08:14   - That's right, I had forgotten about that.

00:08:16   - Yeah, the Dora the Explorer book that was haunting him.

00:08:18   - Yeah, the battery was going low

00:08:20   and I was making a terrible noise, I remember that.

00:08:21   - And he like tore apart half his house to find it

00:08:24   and it ended up being a stupid book.

00:08:26   But yeah, we mainly use it for weather.

00:08:30   Adam will ask the weather in the morning.

00:08:32   And it actually, talking to Alexa

00:08:35   greatly helped him improve his pronunciation because--

00:08:39   - Oh, that's interesting.

00:08:39   - He would get frustrated that she wouldn't understand him.

00:08:42   So then he would have to articulate the word

00:08:44   a little bit more.

00:08:45   And I really think that talking to her

00:08:47   has helped him develop his linguistical skills.

00:08:51   - He's more receptive to instruction than my children

00:08:53   because my children have the same problem.

00:08:55   And I tell them, "You have to enunciate

00:08:56   and it will understand you better."

00:08:58   And they say, they roll their eyes and then say, "Forget it."

00:09:01   - So yeah, Adam really, really wanted to hear

00:09:03   "Fireball" by Pitbull.

00:09:04   So he made sure he got that right.

00:09:06   - He's got no other way to do it, yeah.

00:09:07   Does he learn that syntax, "play fireball by pitbull," like if he just says "play fireball,"

00:09:12   I'm sure there's other songs that are by fire.

00:09:14   Like did you?

00:09:15   Oh no, yeah, he'll say "by pitbull," and he also found it really funny that when he tells

00:09:20   Alexa to say, he says, "Alexa, play nothing," that it will play a song called "Nothing,"

00:09:26   and he thinks that's really funny because he told her to play nothing when then she

00:09:30   goes and plays something.

00:09:31   So yeah, he asked the weather, like I said, it's pretty good at animal facts and other

00:09:37   basic facts asking it and setting timers and stuff. Oh, he's been setting timers with it

00:09:42   too, because every time we're like, "All right, you know, you have five minutes for this,"

00:09:45   and he'll set a timer. Oh, in the morning, he comes downstairs by himself. He gets up,

00:09:49   gets dressed, brushes his teeth, and comes downstairs and tells Alexa to turn on the

00:09:52   lights. So he's pretty capable now. He's like a little person. It's amazing.

00:10:00   Asking the weather is actually the most common use of Siri in my house. And it started many

00:10:05   years ago with my daughter coming to my bedside table and using whatever device I have there

00:10:12   to find out what the weather is so she could figure out what she wants to wear, although

00:10:15   she ostensibly it's to find out what you're supposed to wear, but regardless of what the

00:10:19   weather is, she just wears clothing that is not appropriate for the weather, so I don't

00:10:22   know what she's doing.

00:10:23   But anyway, the key fact is that you don't need to unlock any of my devices to get the

00:10:30   You can, you know, hold down the little button and then say, "What's the weather?"

00:10:35   And it will give you the weather report without the device being unlocked.

00:10:38   That's why she's using it.

00:10:40   Even she has her own devices now, but she still likes to come into my room and use my

00:10:43   iPad or my iPhone to get the weather report.

00:10:47   So I was trying to think of how often does Siri get used and like, well, I use it.

00:10:51   So the reminder once every few weeks or something, mostly we don't use it.

00:10:55   Then I realized it gets used every day to tell my daughter the weather.

00:10:58   Yeah, and so it's been interesting for us trying to, I mean, again, it's been all of

00:11:02   a day, but you know, starting to figure out how can this integrate into our lives because

00:11:06   we didn't exactly seek this out, right?

00:11:08   It kind of fell in our laps, just like my white cars.

00:11:11   And so anyway, it just kind of appeared, if you will, and we're trying to figure out,

00:11:16   well, where does this fit in our lives?

00:11:17   Because this is not something we've like wanted.

00:11:21   And so far, it seems like weather and timers have been popular.

00:11:25   We did enjoy doing a little bit of Spotify just because it's nice to be able to call

00:11:29   out across the room, you know, "Hey, Lady in the Can, play such and such by so and so."

00:11:34   Oh, you can ask it to tell you stories or jokes.

00:11:36   Oh, good to know.

00:11:37   I did not know that.

00:11:38   Yeah.

00:11:39   Adam, during Halloween, really enjoyed asking the Lady in the Can to tell him a scary story.

00:11:45   But they weren't really scary.

00:11:46   It was like, "Whrrrrr!"

00:11:47   Then the old potato, like, it was really cheesy.

00:11:51   It was like, "Oh no, you have rotten vegetables!

00:11:54   How scary!"

00:11:56   - So Casey, where did you physically put it?

00:11:58   - So, well actually, Tiff may remember this, but--

00:12:02   - It's next to the plant on the ledge

00:12:04   by the table in between the living room and the table.

00:12:06   Duh.

00:12:07   - Yeah, exactly, totally, Jon.

00:12:09   So basically, if you walk in from the garage,

00:12:11   you're dumped directly in our kitchen,

00:12:13   from the kitchen to the little breakfast nook,

00:12:14   the breakfast nook to like our main living or family room, whatever you want to call it.

00:12:18   And there's a little ledge in between the breakfast nook and the family room. And so we just stuck it

00:12:24   there for now on a piece of wood. And after all the HomePod stuff, I'm like, man, should I get

00:12:29   a little doily for this or what? I don't even know. But we put it there because, you know,

00:12:33   that's easy access orally, verbally, whatever, to both the kitchen and the family room. And so

00:12:39   So without having to like scream, you know, most of the downstairs can hear or can speak to her and can hear her.

00:12:46   And one of the striking things to me about this, which I think I intellectually knew, but it creeped me out to see,

00:12:54   on the Lady app on your phone, it actually shows you, "Hey, here's the things that you've said recently,"

00:12:58   which in and of itself, okay, I can kind of understand that, but that's a little weird.

00:13:01   But then you can listen to yourself making these requests, which is, again, like understandable.

00:13:07   My brain understands.

00:13:08   Of course it's listening to you.

00:13:09   That's how it does things.

00:13:11   But like, it's also recording me, which is a little weird, but I still mostly understand

00:13:16   it.

00:13:17   But it's saving that, which is a little weird, even though I do understand it.

00:13:23   So that's like a little bit funny.

00:13:25   And that did creep me out a little bit.

00:13:27   The only skills I've installed are AnyList, which we spoke about an episode or two ago,

00:13:32   Which I didn't realize you actually have to flip a switch on the lists within any list

00:13:37   in order to get them Lady in the Tube enabled.

00:13:41   And once I did that it's been working pretty well.

00:13:43   We don't have Nest thermostats because we're not cool like that, but we have, you know,

00:13:48   one of the--it's not Honeywell, but it's like some other manufacturers--rough equivalent.

00:13:52   And so I've installed a skill for that.

00:13:54   It's the Nexia skill, N-E-X-I-A.

00:13:56   But I haven't actually tried it yet.

00:13:58   I've installed an Eero skill that I haven't tried, and the aforementioned Garbage Guess

00:14:02   the animal sound. So I haven't done much with it, but it is neat. It is more neat and more

00:14:08   convenient than I thought it would be, but I wouldn't say that it has changed my world

00:14:11   quite yet. And the one thing that did strike me as super world-changing, no sarcasm intended,

00:14:18   is being able to just shout at the tube, you know, "Hey, play Timber by Pitbull," or whatever

00:14:23   the case may be. In our case, it was actually "Play Five Little Ducks by Raffi." But anyway...

00:14:28   Yeah, you gotta update that.

00:14:30   Well, being able to be synced with Spotify, that's really cool because I pay for Spotify

00:14:38   anyway and just having it being able to use Spotify.

00:14:42   And then if I turn Spotify on on my phone, we can do the, I forget the term for it, but

00:14:48   the thing where you can control other Spotify clients.

00:14:51   And so even the hardware buttons on my phone, as long as the phone was left in Spotify mode,

00:14:57   The hardware buttons on my phone can control the volume of the lady in the tube playing

00:15:01   music, which is super cool.

00:15:03   I'm not even entirely clear how that works, but it does.

00:15:06   And so in that sense, all this integration is super awesome.

00:15:10   And it occurred to me, wow, I really wish that this tube was a much better speaker.

00:15:14   And I thought, well, then I should get a HomePod.

00:15:16   And then I thought, well, no, because I can't use Spotify with it in the way I want.

00:15:20   And then it occurred to me, I don't know where I've been for the last two years, but they

00:15:23   They make an echo, what is it, a little dot or something like that, the echo dot, that

00:15:28   I can plug into the stereo.

00:15:29   Why have I not thought of this for two years?

00:15:32   And I could just shout at this little dot, echo dot, or whatever it's called, "Hey

00:15:37   Lady and the Tube, play Timber by Pitbull," and it would play on our home theater stereo,

00:15:43   which is not a remarkably great stereo.

00:15:44   In fact, it's kind of crappy, but it's the best stereo we have in the house.

00:15:48   Why didn't I do this a long time ago?

00:15:49   Why do I do this to myself?

00:15:51   So how does the other people in your house feel about your new tube?

00:15:56   Erin is kind of ambivalent about it.

00:15:58   I don't think she's really embraced it as yet, partially because it's been a day, partially

00:16:02   because I don't think she's really seen me successfully add things to the grocery list

00:16:06   a few times.

00:16:07   Or she's not one to typically play music if I'm not around, so usually I'm the family

00:16:12   DJ.

00:16:14   Declan is scared to talk to it, not in the "Oh God, Oh God" way, but in the "I'm bashful

00:16:20   and shy way, but he does enjoy the fact that we can talk to it and ask me to talk to it

00:16:26   from time to time.

00:16:28   And Michaela is just sitting there as per expectations.

00:16:32   So it's so far I wouldn't say it's a rousing success, but I mean I'm enjoying it more than

00:16:35   I thought I would.

00:16:36   And for the 17 or so dollars that it cost me to ship it here, it's worth $17.

00:16:41   I don't know that I personally would pay like $100 or $150 or in the case of the HomePod

00:16:45   $350 for something like this, especially in the case of the HomePod where Siri is, in

00:16:50   my personal opinion, kind of garbage. But it's pretty cool. I like it.

00:16:56   A few of the times that made me fall really in love with the lady in the tube was when

00:17:02   we have game nights and we all end up having song suggestion battles and we just keep interrupting

00:17:09   each other's songs to play other songs and it just gets really fun, the back and forth

00:17:13   just yelling at Alexa to do different things. And in addition, you can also order stuff

00:17:17   on your friends' Alexa's and that gets pretty fun too.

00:17:22   So yeah, I don't know. It's cool. I don't see myself buying a HomePod, although it wouldn't

00:17:26   surprise me if that's on the birthday list. Like, it occurred to me that all this waffling

00:17:31   I'm doing in front of Erin is probably not helping her for my birthday shopping because

00:17:36   my birthday's in two weeks. So I don't know if she's looking to buy me a HomePod, would

00:17:41   never buy me a HomePod, has already bought me a HomePod, I don't know what the plan is.

00:17:45   It's brought you a child, Casey.

00:17:48   No argument here, I'm fine with that.

00:17:50   But it just occurred to me that I need to be more clear about what my desires are for

00:17:55   the HomePod, just in case that's on her radar.

00:17:58   But the thing is, I still don't know what I want to do about a HomePod.

00:18:00   I feel like it's not something I want, except I do think having a really great speaker would

00:18:04   be nice.

00:18:05   So, I don't know.

00:18:06   If she listens to this podcast, which she won't, so you should tell her separately,

00:18:08   maybe she can get you a Dot, because it's cheaper and it'll give you something to hook

00:18:11   hook up to your good speakers.

00:18:12   That is true.

00:18:13   Now, Jon, how is your HomePod second week on?

00:18:16   It's not seeing much use.

00:18:17   Like, I mean, I don't think my kids know that they can ask it the weather, or maybe

00:18:22   my daughter just likes to use the stuff on my nightstand because it's closer to her

00:18:26   bedroom where she's deciding what she's going to wear.

00:18:30   But yeah, not really getting much use.

00:18:31   I mean, my Google Homes don't get much use either.

00:18:33   It's just that they're there when I need them to be there.

00:18:35   Like, that's the key component of these things is I don't use them that frequently.

00:18:41   not daily, probably not even weekly, but in the moment when I have a desire and I'm too

00:18:46   lazy to get up or too lazy to go get my phone or just want to know right now, the fact that

00:18:50   I can yell something into the air and get satisfaction immediately is great.

00:18:55   And so I feel like it's well worth the money for these things, just for those times.

00:19:00   And of course, like I said, when my kids have friends over, they use them, you know, they

00:19:05   become the house DJs, and they use them to play whatever songs they want and laugh and

00:19:10   do whatever they're doing and interrupt each other's songs and stuff like that.

00:19:13   So it's a home entertainment device to keep children entertained as well.

00:19:17   Alexa, play "Tubthumping" by Chumbawamba.

00:19:20   Oh!

00:19:21   At least it's not that gargle song.

00:19:25   I just listened to the Valentine's Top Four just earlier today.

00:19:30   I'm way behind on podcasts.

00:19:32   And yeah, that gargle is bad, but "Tubthumping," I cannot abide by that.

00:19:39   It's like their own personal never going to give you up.

00:19:43   I'm never going to give it up.

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00:20:48   Any other thoughts about ladies and canisters and tubes and cylinders and things of that

00:20:51   nature?

00:20:52   Tiff's not in a cylinder, but do you want to explain why she's here?

00:20:57   Well Marco is sick so they found another Arment and replaced him. So hey it's me.

00:21:04   And who are you?

00:21:06   I'm Tiff. I'm lossless.

00:21:08   Wow.

00:21:10   Sorry.

00:21:12   You don't have to assume that everyone who listens to the show knows who you are. You should introduce yourself.

00:21:16   Hi I'm Tiffany Arment. You may know me from such podcasts as Top 4 or Playing for Fun with Relay FM's Michael Hurley.

00:21:24   Hurley. I'm also sometimes on ATP and I'm married to Marco Arment, who's usually on

00:21:30   ATP. Bam! There you go. You can find me on the

00:21:33   webs under Tiffany Arment. All right, you skimmed over the part about Marco being

00:21:37   sick, which is kind of vague. He's not dying and I think he could have been on

00:21:42   the program but he doesn't feel well enough to do it, so here we are.

00:21:45   Hey screw you man

00:21:47   God I can't talk you jackass

00:21:53   Somebody having fun with terminal and the say command not that we're complaining. It's great to have Tiff

00:22:02   I'm just saying do you guys remember smarter child remember talking to that bot? No

00:22:06   What there was a bot smarter child in like the 90s that you would talk to you

00:22:12   They I don't think I ever did it but now that you mentioned it as a 90s thing

00:22:15   I think I vaguely remember it, but I don't think I did it. Yeah, we all did it

00:22:19   You know after school chatting with smarter child on a messenger like all the cool kids do

00:22:24   Eating snacks talking to smarter child listening to no doubt

00:22:28   As you do, you know a piece of 90s nostalgia just came back recently

00:22:33   I feel like every six months or so, maybe it's every year

00:22:38   For some reason or another somebody brings up ICQ like, you know, the the the precursor predecessor or we know

00:22:45   Not everyone does

00:22:48   What you're talking about see thank you Tif

00:22:51   So I see Q the letters I see and Q which is supposed to you know be funny because it's also the words

00:22:57   I seek you

00:22:59   It was like the first particularly popular online presence like I am applications

00:23:05   So this was before, either before AOL Instant Messenger existed, or it was before it existed

00:23:11   to anyone outside of AOL.

00:23:12   I don't know exactly what the timeline was, but what was interesting about ICQ, and I

00:23:17   think it does still exist, but what was interesting about ICQ in its heyday, which was like mid-90s,

00:23:21   maybe late 90s, was that it had sequential user numbers, not unlike Twitter actually.

00:23:27   And so, for whatever, and you actually use these user numbers, like I believe that was

00:23:31   the equivalent of a screen name.

00:23:33   And so everyone knew their user numbers, and to this day, welded into my brain, or that's

00:23:40   probably not the right phrasing, but whatever, somewhere in my brain in a place that I cannot

00:23:43   remove it is 1202572.

00:23:46   And I will never forget that probably for the rest of my life.

00:23:49   And I just, it's funny because, you know, you bring up to feel this weird bit of nostalgia

00:23:53   that just comes up out of nowhere.

00:23:54   I really feel like every six months or so somebody brings up ICQ and or their ICQ number.

00:23:59   I don't know why, but it happens all the time.

00:24:02   There's a new TV show on Netflix called Everything Sucks and it's very 90s.

00:24:07   They pretty much just throw in all these 90s references just for people our age to be like,

00:24:13   "Whoa, remember that?"

00:24:16   It's like a little teaser 90s candy kind of show and Marco and I just binge watched it

00:24:21   because we've been sick.

00:24:22   So it was pretty fun.

00:24:23   I suggest it to anybody who is feeling some 90s love.

00:24:27   Go for it.

00:24:28   So you never had ICQ?

00:24:29   No, no.

00:24:30   I started with AOL and some messenger.

00:24:33   - I think they were kind of contemporary.

00:24:35   I had all these things, right?

00:24:38   But I was not as into any of them

00:24:40   to remember my ICQ number.

00:24:42   It was a pretty big number too,

00:24:43   but it was like anything else where I would,

00:24:46   it was more fractured than it is now.

00:24:48   Like you talk to some people on ICQ, some people on AIM,

00:24:51   some people I talked to on the universities,

00:24:54   like real-time communication thing,

00:24:56   like just using the talk command or using write

00:24:58   - Right, to the terminal.

00:25:00   - I'm sorry.

00:25:01   - I'm old, yes, I know.

00:25:02   (laughing)

00:25:04   Yeah, and the ICQ had this terribly drawn flower icon

00:25:08   on the Mac.

00:25:09   - Oh yeah.

00:25:10   - It was not a good looking icon by any stretch.

00:25:13   - Marco's in the chat room letting everyone know.

00:25:16   - Is that your number Marco?

00:25:18   - You all have big numbers too.

00:25:19   I think my number was similar length.

00:25:21   I just don't remember what it is.

00:25:22   - Our screen names are gone now, right?

00:25:24   Or can you like look up stuff with people's screen names?

00:25:26   someone just asked about what my screen name was and it's pretty really teenager-y and

00:25:33   I don't know if I should say it.

00:25:35   Screen name for what, AIM?

00:25:36   Yeah.

00:25:37   No one can do anything weird with that, can they?

00:25:39   AIM just recently shut down.

00:25:40   I know because I got the message that said, "Hey, you've been signed on to AIM every

00:25:43   day since it existed, but guess what?

00:25:44   It's going away."

00:25:45   Because I was still on an adium.

00:25:47   Is it gone now in all of our-

00:25:49   Yeah.

00:25:50   I got the message about it.

00:25:51   Once I got the message, I deleted it.

00:25:52   Oh, well, I guess I still had mine, but I saved all the important chat messages from

00:25:56   when Marco and I first met, because we're super cute like that.

00:25:58   I actually have some, I think I might have our first InstaMessenger conversation somewhere

00:26:04   buried between Erin and me and every couple of years I stumble on it. So because we're

00:26:08   also super, I'll go with cute, maybe creepy. I don't know.

00:26:11   Well, it's like saving love letters, right?

00:26:13   Right? No, I'm serious. It's hilarious listening or not listening, but rereading this because

00:26:18   it's like, after you've been with any human being for a long time, be it married or just,

00:26:23   you know, partners or whatever, you as a couple will change, like you as individuals and you

00:26:29   as a couple will change and looking at like this totally like, you know, scuffing of the

00:26:33   feet looking down at my toes, Casey like, hey, you know, maybe we can chalk later.

00:26:39   As opposed to today's dynamic wall scaling ice crushing Casey.

00:26:43   I'm picturing you in overalls with a daisy hanging out of the butt pocket.

00:26:45   Right? Well, I mean, that's how it reads. That's how these like chat, these chats between

00:26:49   Erin and I read. It's hilarious and embarrassing. But nevertheless, it is adorable to go back

00:26:54   to that.

00:26:55   Yeah, Marcos and I, we were all like, "Oh, well, what's your favorite meal? And do you

00:27:00   like thunderstorms?"

00:27:01   Like long walks on the beach?

00:27:05   Yeah.

00:27:06   You like piña coladas?

00:27:07   Nice.

00:27:08   So the generation before had to save their paper love letters. Your generation is saving

00:27:14   your AIM messages, right? But the current generation doesn't have to say anything because

00:27:19   it'll be in the cloud forever.

00:27:20   - Lucky bastards.

00:27:21   - They'll want to expunge it, right,

00:27:24   after they get divorced and they won't be able to.

00:27:26   Like Google searches will still turn it up

00:27:27   'cause it's feeding some training model

00:27:30   in Google's giant machine learning cloud.

00:27:34   - All right, so what was your AIM name, Casey?

00:27:36   Let's see what yours was.

00:27:38   - I think I have mentioned this at some point in the past.

00:27:41   So I was trying to think of like a cool 90s AIM name.

00:27:45   I don't know, I think it was '97-ish

00:27:47   that I joined Instant Messenger, '96, '97, something like that. And so I was trying to

00:27:51   think of a cool name. I needed a cool name. And I was on the bus on the way home from

00:27:56   high school, and my friend Ben was talking about how he was trying to learn to play bass,

00:28:01   and he had gotten a lot of blisters on his fingers. And I thought, "Ah! Got it. Blister."

00:28:06   But...

00:28:07   You think that wasn't going to be taken.

00:28:09   Your name was Blister?

00:28:10   No, no, no. No, it gets better. It gets better.

00:28:13   It was even worse than that.

00:28:15   Exactly, Robot Marco.

00:28:16   I know what this is because I had your AIM address.

00:28:18   It's all coming back to me now.

00:28:20   I had blocked it out, but now, in fact,

00:28:22   I can probably pull you up on my buddy list right now

00:28:24   if I could connect to the service.

00:28:26   - You probably could.

00:28:27   - That sounds like, it's like a metal name,

00:28:30   like, "My name is Puss."

00:28:32   - Right, I'm saying it was such a great name.

00:28:35   - Did you have like a nose piercing with a safety pin?

00:28:38   - Yeah, totally, yeah, that's definitely me.

00:28:39   No, I was like the dorkiest white boy in the world,

00:28:43   which surprises no one.

00:28:44   But nevertheless, it turns out that the word blister, B-L-I-S-T-E-R, was taken.

00:28:49   Who knew?

00:28:50   So what do you do if blister is taken and you're, I don't know, 15, 16, 17 years old,

00:28:54   however old I was at the time?

00:28:56   B-L-I-S-T-A, of course.

00:29:00   Blista.

00:29:01   At least you didn't put a number on the end of it.

00:29:04   That's true.

00:29:05   Blista 69.

00:29:06   Right?

00:29:07   Or Blista 6732 and 4, you know, or whatever.

00:29:12   Those were the worst.

00:29:14   So Tiff, now that you've compelled me to share,

00:29:16   it is now your turn.

00:29:17   - Okay, well, mine is really like wavy, teenage.

00:29:21   I'm like super deep and write poetry.

00:29:24   So mine was M-A-M-T-J-S,

00:29:28   which stood for Music Always Makes the Journey Sweeter.

00:29:32   - Wow!

00:29:33   - You win. - Wow!

00:29:35   - And it was also the title of a painting that I liked

00:29:38   by this really weird artist.

00:29:40   I believe his name was James Christiansen.

00:29:42   He was like some Mormon artist guy

00:29:46   that a Mormon boy showed me

00:29:49   'cause I was super in love with him.

00:29:51   - Hey. - It was a whole thing.

00:29:53   Hey, yeah, it was in high school, dude.

00:29:55   I didn't even meet you yet, Robot Marco.

00:29:57   - Don't be in love with Mormons.

00:29:58   - Oh, no, it was a whole scene.

00:30:02   I don't even think he's straight.

00:30:04   No, it was a whole thing.

00:30:06   It was a whole thing.

00:30:07   He was deep, though.

00:30:08   He played the piano beautifully.

00:30:10   We hung out on the jetty.

00:30:11   It's those type of things.

00:30:12   So yeah, music always makes the journey sweeter.

00:30:15   Can you explain to Marco and Casey what a jetty is?

00:30:17   They don't know what a jetty is.

00:30:19   It's a big whole bunch of rocks that jut out into some water that kids go out on.

00:30:23   Marco might know, now you're indoctrinating him into Long Island culture.

00:30:26   That's true, he knows now.

00:30:27   I don't think he's been out on -- he's seen the rock jetties, but he hasn't ventured out

00:30:30   on them or gotten stuck on the end when the high tide comes in.

00:30:33   Until he slipped and given himself a terrible cut on the barnacles or something, then he

00:30:38   hasn't really arrived.

00:30:39   Yeah, exactly.

00:30:40   Until you grab like, you know, a croissant from the local bakery and go out on the jetty

00:30:44   and cuddle a little bit.

00:30:46   You haven't lived.

00:30:47   So these, these, you know, you have these AIM names, right?

00:30:52   But were they, did they span outside the service?

00:30:55   Did they become an identity outside the service?

00:30:57   Or are these just the names that you picked for the thing?

00:30:59   Because I think a lot of, a common thing in the early internet was to be forced to pick

00:31:04   some name on a service, but lots of people haven't picked names and to come up with something

00:31:07   like these two things you've just described.

00:31:09   two things. Yeah, and to attach that and then so for the next service to use like the same

00:31:15   name because for the same reason because like you know it won't be taken and you become

00:31:18   to be identified by it. That happened with either of these? Oh yeah. Oh yeah, I had my

00:31:22   name forever until I started using like my real name places. I was always ma'am to just

00:31:27   at least at least no numbers but I think that's worse than this is not pronounceable. No,

00:31:35   It's not, it doesn't even pronounce any.

00:31:37   It was a terrible decision made by a really confused person.

00:31:41   - So, Casey, where else did you use Blista?

00:31:44   - I think I actually, well, generally speaking,

00:31:47   I used Blister where I could and fell back if possible.

00:31:50   - I wish my name was Blista.

00:31:52   - That's such a gross name.

00:31:54   Blister's not, give me the origin again.

00:31:57   It's like a bass player and he had got blisters?

00:31:59   - So, no, no, no, no, no.

00:32:01   So like my, my, so if you think I'm nerdy and my friend Ben was even nerdier than I

00:32:07   am, or at the time anyway, and he was learning to play bass and was lamenting on the school

00:32:13   bus on the way home from school because we were, we lived like a couple of houses down

00:32:16   from each other, that he was getting blisters all over his hands.

00:32:18   And this was as I was pontificating about what I should call myself online.

00:32:21   And that's when I chose blister.

00:32:23   And the image in your mind, you say blisters.

00:32:25   That's that's an image I want to associate myself with.

00:32:27   Why not?

00:32:28   Because blisters are gross.

00:32:29   - Yes, but I was 17 years old, for goodness sakes.

00:32:32   - How about abrasion?

00:32:33   - Well, yes.

00:32:34   - You were 17?

00:32:35   That's way too old to be naming yourself Blista.

00:32:38   - I mean, whatever it was, I was in high school.

00:32:39   I know I was in high school, that I'm sure of.

00:32:41   So yeah, I was probably too old to be naming myself that,

00:32:44   but remember everyone that this was a different era

00:32:46   and that things were different back then.

00:32:48   - I had a friend whose, his name was Gravy Boat

00:32:50   and I was so jealous.

00:32:51   I'm like, that's so good.

00:32:53   Ah, I wish I thought of Gravy Boat.

00:32:56   - That's not better than your name.

00:32:58   - Gravy boats amazing, are you kidding?

00:33:00   Such a good name.

00:33:01   - So my aim name I wish I can share

00:33:05   because the service is now dead was JC Saracusa.

00:33:08   Why was it JC Saracusa?

00:33:12   Because both JC Saracusa and Saracusa were taken.

00:33:15   - 'Cause DJ Saracusa was taken.

00:33:17   - No.

00:33:19   - You should have been DJ Saracusa.

00:33:21   - Yeah, I don't know.

00:33:24   I've been trying to teach my children

00:33:25   don't pick usernames with numbers in them

00:33:27   because I feel like that's not something our family does.

00:33:30   (laughing)

00:33:31   - We don't do that in our family.

00:33:33   - No, we don't.

00:33:34   It's not appropriate.

00:33:35   But beyond that, they're not good at picking usernames.

00:33:40   And it's hard to do.

00:33:42   I had to come up with my son's PlayStation account name

00:33:45   and like everything is taken.

00:33:46   And I just wanted something that would like

00:33:48   not being embarrassing to anyone in the present

00:33:51   or in the future,

00:33:52   but be somehow meaningful and connected to something, right?

00:33:57   Hard was hard to do we spent a long time on that

00:33:59   Well, you know what having you two on the show reminds me that I need to pick a bone with

00:34:06   Long Islanders because for the longest time once I realized that I should just start embracing like my actual name

00:34:13   Like I was you know old enough because remember early internet

00:34:15   You never used both your first and last name on the internet never did that because it was too scary

00:34:20   Especially if you're a kid, but not for yeah, this is weird. You're yeah

00:34:25   That's I felt like that skipped my generation

00:34:28   Because I guess it was like before we were taught like we at the point

00:34:32   I would when I was doing it they were teaching the younger kids not to do that

00:34:36   But no one was teaching us not to do that. So we did it. Yeah, I think this is one of the rare times

00:34:40   I mean this genuinely that I remember that you are more than just a year or two older than I

00:34:44   Because generally speaking you and I I mean there there are some subtle differences between our upbringings and some bigger ones

00:34:50   But but they're not in my face very often and this is one of those times where it's very in my face

00:34:55   But anyways, when I realized that I should start purchasing domain names because they were less than like a gazillion dollars for dot-com

00:35:02   You know

00:35:02   So what things had started to level out a little bit?

00:35:04   For the longest time I wanted to get list calm and for the longest time it was taken by Long Island soda

00:35:11   systems and I remain to this day bitter about that because seems like

00:35:16   Not only did they take my surname and my rightfully deserved domain name, but because I wasn't very organized

00:35:24   they eventually let it lapse and now some squatter has it and probably wants a billion dollars for it.

00:35:28   You should have been, you could have sniped it. I know, I know. You should have had a watch on that

00:35:32   and picked it up as soon as it came available. It's hard to say that you have, you know,

00:35:36   anything because with Li you have to go to Long Island, so tough luck on that one. Yeah,

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00:36:54   Should we actually talk about tech stuff?

00:36:59   No, I like talking about Long Island.

00:37:03   There is one tech-related, game-related thing that I wanted to do a quick hit on, because

00:37:09   TIFF may actually have something to say about it.

00:37:12   This is a story about Vulcan coming to the Mac, V-U-L-K-A-N, which is the latest version

00:37:19   of, well, a graphics API made by the same consortium that does OpenGL.

00:37:28   And all of our Macs have OpenGL, and there's a mobile OpenGL ES on the iPhones and stuff.

00:37:36   But it's been years since Apple did anything with the OpenGL stack on the Mac.

00:37:43   And it shows in the performance and features of OpenGL on the Mac, which tends to hamper

00:37:50   the ability to either make Mac-native games, which almost nobody does, or to port games

00:37:57   from other platforms.

00:37:59   Because if you make a game and it uses some gaming API that doesn't exist on the Mac,

00:38:03   It's not going to work and you need some kind of shim layer to work with OpenGL, you know,

00:38:08   converting from DirectX to OpenGL or something.

00:38:10   Or if you try to write it portably in OpenGL for multiple platforms, OpenGL on the Mac

00:38:13   is so old and so slow that you can't, like unless you use it as a, you know, lowest common

00:38:18   denominator like, and most people don't do that for games, it's not good.

00:38:22   So I think it has hurt gaming performance and game availability on the Mac.

00:38:28   And so, and of course Apple is now doing the metal thing where it's a lower level API with

00:38:33   a much more modern, lower level API that is nevertheless exclusive to Apple platforms.

00:38:37   It's on iOS and it's on the Mac.

00:38:40   And a lot of game engines have written to that.

00:38:41   So the Unity engine, some other – what's the other big game engine, Tiff, you probably

00:38:45   know from the opening screens of games, Unity and – oh, Unreal.

00:38:50   I was totally just going to say that.

00:38:52   Yeah.

00:38:53   Have support for Metal.

00:38:54   And so that helps bring some games to the Mac.

00:38:55   Because like, okay, well, I'm not writing my game using OpenGL.

00:38:58   I'm using an engine and the engine knows how to target these platforms.

00:39:00   So that has helped a little bit.

00:39:02   But now, finally, Vulkan is coming to the Mac, not from Apple, but from the same—I

00:39:06   don't know if it's the same consortium—it's an open source thing, anyway, to let people

00:39:11   write games using the Vulkan API and then run them on the Mac and on Windows and on

00:39:16   wherever with equal feature set.

00:39:20   And there's a couple stories—we'll put links in the show notes—of, like, they tried

00:39:23   porting a game and the Vulkan implementation, even though Vulkan is just, like, translating

00:39:28   those calls down into Metal for the game to run is like 50% faster than the old version,

00:39:34   which would translate the calls down to the OpenGL stack.

00:39:37   So I feel like this is yet another nail in the coffin of OpenGL on the Mac, which has

00:39:42   basically been dead ever since Apple decided they're never going to update it again.

00:39:46   But having it there and having it be old and slow was just depressing, and it was almost

00:39:52   like I didn't like it when games used the "native Mac API" because it was slow.

00:39:56   So now, just all the game makers are taking this all out of Apple's hands and I'm hoping

00:40:01   what it will mean is better performance for games when running on the Mac.

00:40:05   So you don't have to reboot into Windows like running games in Steam or whatever on the

00:40:08   Mac.

00:40:09   And finally, everyone giving up on waiting for Apple to do anything gaming related on

00:40:14   the Mac other than Metal.

00:40:15   Because they changed the Windows server to Metal I think and Sierra, hi Sierra, I forget

00:40:20   when.

00:40:21   But like, OpenGL seems to be fading fast.

00:40:23   I wish Apple instead had just said, "Oh, never mind.

00:40:27   We realized we should have kept updating OpenGL and making it faster and better."

00:40:30   But it doesn't seem like they're doing that, so I'm glad someone else is doing it for them.

00:40:34   I'm excited for all the games I play on my Mac.

00:40:37   I like games.

00:40:38   Do you reboot into Windows to play games, or do you mostly just play them on Steam on

00:40:42   your Mac?

00:40:43   I play mine on Steam on Mac.

00:40:45   I haven't played any games on my Mac except Firewatch, which I almost forgot the name

00:40:49   of.

00:40:50   That's how long it's been.

00:40:51   That was very good, but that is the only time I've ever played a game on my Mac.

00:40:54   Oh, and you did do boot camp because you had all those big complaints about how hard it

00:40:57   was to get boot camp working.

00:40:58   What game was that for that you were trying to do boot camp?

00:41:00   Oh, that was for the...

00:41:03   Inside.

00:41:04   Thank you.

00:41:05   Thank you, Robot Marco.

00:41:06   Inside.

00:41:07   Oh, I'd totally forgotten that wasn't...

00:41:09   Did they just not have the Mac port out then or are they still not?

00:41:12   Yeah, the Mac port wasn't out.

00:41:13   It literally came out like a week after we recorded or like a few days after we recorded

00:41:18   or it was coming out while I was playing the game,

00:41:22   but I needed the time to play the game before I could,

00:41:25   I saw I couldn't wait for the port to come out.

00:41:27   - That's another podcast you're on occasionally.

00:41:29   You'd enlist it in your list of podcasts,

00:41:30   Tiff is also on the incomparable occasionally.

00:41:33   - Oh, and I'm also, I'm a player on all the game show,

00:41:37   the incomparable game show stuff.

00:41:39   Yeah, Boulder Dash.

00:41:40   I mean, not Boulder Dash, low definition.

00:41:42   - No, no, that's a copyrighted trademarked game

00:41:45   owned by some other company.

00:41:47   - No, we don't play the Boulder Dash at all.

00:41:49   I don't even know what game that is.

00:41:51   I never heard of it more in my life.

00:41:53   - Low definition.

00:41:54   - Yeah, the lowest of lows and the highest of highs.

00:41:58   - All right, let's talk about this weird patent

00:42:01   that just came out, which is that really that weird

00:42:04   in the grand scheme of things?

00:42:05   So at Patently Apple, they noticed that Apple

00:42:09   has been granted a patent for a dual display MacBook

00:42:11   or perhaps second generation iPad Pro.

00:42:13   So the gist of it is there's a display

00:42:16   that you look at and a display that you would ostensibly type on.

00:42:21   And since Marco has done a little bit of kvetching and complaining about the modern keyboards,

00:42:29   I think this is really—we should just call this the Marco patent.

00:42:32   This is to make Marco happy, because clearly the answer to Marco's problems is if dust

00:42:38   is a problem, Marco, we'll just remove any mechanism by which dust could get in the keyboard

00:42:42   because there is no "in" to the keyboard.

00:42:44   It's all just glass.

00:42:45   So you're welcome, Marco.

00:42:46   for you. I actually don't think there's that much to say about this. I put it in here mostly

00:42:49   so we can refer people back to the original discussion of this, which was episode 193,

00:42:56   title of that was "The Escape Zone." It was when we first talked about the Touch Bar MacBook

00:43:00   Pros, like right after they were announced. And the first thing that I think occurred

00:43:05   to anybody, including us, who looked at the Touch Bar MacBook Pro is, "Okay, so they've

00:43:10   got a little screen on top of the keyboard, it seems kind of like a half measure.

00:43:16   Do we think that eventually the whole keyboard will be a screen and we have like this long

00:43:20   conversation about it so go back to that episode if you want to hear it because I don't think

00:43:22   we're going to repeat it here.

00:43:24   We did all the things you were going to expect us to say about the pluses and minuses of

00:43:27   having anything that's entirely a screen to type on.

00:43:32   And then this story is like any other Apple patent story.

00:43:35   The idea of having an entirely screen keyboard is obvious to anybody, including Apple.

00:43:44   And they did it on their iOS devices, they put a screen on their keyboard, surely they

00:43:49   had investigated that, and like anything that Apple does, they investigated and they patented.

00:43:53   Especially the obvious ideas, because that's how our stupid patent system works.

00:43:57   So as with all patent things, this means nothing about any product that Apple will actually

00:44:01   ship.

00:44:02   But it's a thing that's been in everybody's mind.

00:44:05   I think people do want to touch screens on their computers.

00:44:07   I think people don't like the, some people don't like the keyboards as they exist now

00:44:13   and we expect them to change.

00:44:15   I don't expect them to change in this direction, but this is just, you know, time-delayed confirmation

00:44:21   that, yes, of course Apple has considered having the whole keyboard be a screen or having

00:44:25   the whole thing to be a convertible snap-apart thing with like an iPad and a screen thing

00:44:29   or whatever.

00:44:31   But until we hear more, we'll just continue assuming that this is a thing they investigated

00:44:35   but are not going to produce. But I think they could sell something like this, not maybe as a

00:44:41   Mac laptop, maybe as an iOS thing, but it doesn't seem imminent to me. Let's start with baby steps.

00:44:47   Let's fix the mechanical keyboard reliability problems first, and then after that maybe fix the

00:44:52   Marko satisfaction index on the mechanical keyboard that is now reliable. On that topic,

00:44:58   I have to say I've been using my 2017 MacBook Pro at work with the keyboard. It has not yet broken

00:45:04   because I rarely use the keyboards that I'm not using at all, but it's not yet broken,

00:45:08   and I'm mostly a convert to the key switches. I still hate the touch bar,

00:45:12   mostly because of the escape key, which I want to be a real key, but I like the actual keyboard.

00:45:19   Obviously, the reliability part is still an issue.

00:45:21   - No, I agree with you, Jon, that, granted, I've not used a touch bar Mac, but just the key switches

00:45:28   and whatnot, I adore them, and I have spent years talking about how much the Magic keyboards are my

00:45:34   favorite keyboards ever and in the last six months to a year I have decided that

00:45:38   no my favorite keyboard ever if you can put a humongous asterisk on the end is

00:45:43   the is the one that's in the modern MacBook Pros and MacBooks but that

00:45:47   humongous asterisk is when it's working and as much as I want to say that Marco

00:45:53   is being a big baby and that really it's not a problem no really it is a problem

00:45:57   like I've never needed to buy compressed air in ten years but as I've mentioned

00:46:02   several times I had to buy compressed air to get some like microscopic dust

00:46:06   out of my MacBook keyboard but man when it's where it's like my car isn't it

00:46:09   like when it's working gosh I love that thing but then occasionally it fails it

00:46:13   makes me sad but you know you don't love the arrow keys that like I mean they're

00:46:16   still I have I have general hatred for laptop keyboards but specifically the

00:46:20   arrow keys message it's grim I don't like the arrow keys but they don't drive

00:46:25   me as nuts as I think they drive you and I think some of that is because I've

00:46:29   been using the inverted T for less time.

00:46:33   Well, no, is that really true?

00:46:34   Because my PC stuff always had an inverted T, I think.

00:46:37   I don't know.

00:46:38   The fact that you could feel for it,

00:46:39   because you could feel for the gap.

00:46:40   So the one is the-- we talked about the feeling for it.

00:46:42   But the other thing I find that surprised me using the keyboard

00:46:44   now for a long time, besides not being able to feel down there

00:46:48   to find where the edges are, is that the up and down arrow

00:46:50   keys, which it's essentially the same logical arrangement

00:46:53   has always been, a half size up and half size down,

00:46:56   crammed into a single key space.

00:46:58   I find it more difficult to differentiate and find and select like the up versus the

00:47:03   down and I don't understand why.

00:47:05   Maybe it's because the travel is less, maybe it's because there's less of an indent or

00:47:08   a space between them, but I find myself, I've found the correct key with my finger, I'm

00:47:12   not looking, but I found the correct key, the up/down key with my finger, and I have

00:47:15   to like carefully navigate which one of the things I want to hit.

00:47:20   All that, as I've said for years and years, would be solved if they just put an actual

00:47:22   full-size inverted T and broke the symmetry of the outline of the keyboard, but not holding

00:47:27   my breath in that.

00:47:28   - Tiff, are you using any sort of mobile rig,

00:47:31   or mobile computer computer, or are you on iPads

00:47:34   when you're running around?

00:47:35   - I'm on iPads when I'm running around,

00:47:37   but I wanted to say something about this virtual,

00:47:39   the all-screen keyboard patent thing.

00:47:41   So Apple does a lot of different patents for everything,

00:47:45   right, so it's not super important that they did this one,

00:47:48   because they're doing weird patents all the time

00:47:50   for different things that they think of,

00:47:51   which is, as they should, a smart business move.

00:47:54   But what if, I didn't read this article,

00:47:57   because I'm not allowed to prepare for the show.

00:48:00   - You're filling the Marco role.

00:48:01   - Yeah, yeah, I mean you're not allowed to read stuff.

00:48:03   I asked him and he was like, "No, no, no,

00:48:04   "you have nothing to read, it's fine."

00:48:07   But so I use a kind of like a skin

00:48:10   on the top of my keyboard now,

00:48:11   which has Photoshop shortcuts on it.

00:48:14   And generally the shortcuts that I use the most

00:48:17   I don't need a keyboard for,

00:48:19   but the ones that are kind of more obscure,

00:48:21   I do use it and it's nice to have that reference

00:48:23   without having to look up a guide online

00:48:27   to find out what is the shortcut for a certain obscure tool

00:48:30   that I'm just not used to using that I wanna try out.

00:48:32   But a virtual keyboard, well not virtual,

00:48:35   'cause there is a physical pad there,

00:48:38   but it would be kind of an all-screen digital keyboard,

00:48:41   and that you can kind of have those layouts

00:48:44   built in in the software.

00:48:46   You could just swap them in and out,

00:48:48   and I think that would be kinda cool, wouldn't it?

00:48:50   - Add to TIFF.

00:48:52   (laughing)

00:48:53   - Yeah, no, that's why, I mean,

00:48:55   if you don't remember episode 193, but that's kind of what we talked about.

00:48:58   Like it was the original pitch for, remember Steve Jobs up on the iPhone, it's like, okay,

00:49:03   well you got a keyboard on your thing, but then like the keyboard is what the keyboard

00:49:07   is.

00:49:08   But what if you could change the keyboard based on the application you're using?

00:49:11   Like if you just make the entire front of the phone a screen, it's, you know, it's much

00:49:16   more configurable.

00:49:17   And they demoed that on the original iPhone, like look, when we ask you to enter numbers,

00:49:20   we'll just change the whole keyboard to a numpad.

00:49:22   when you're entering just letters, we can save room and not have -- and we have like

00:49:25   a key to toggle. You know, we all know this from using iOS, but like we don't have to

00:49:29   have the numbers above the letters all the time taking up more room on what was then

00:49:32   the very small iPhone screen. We can just not have a number row at all. And then when

00:49:36   you want to type numbers, hit this little thing in the corner and then the whole keyboard

00:49:38   changes to numbers. That's like the most simple form of this and what you're talking about

00:49:42   is like when you have a screen, you could put anything you want there. It doesn't even

00:49:45   have to look anything like a keyboard. It could be like this palette of buttons that

00:49:49   that you can hit to do Photoshop-y type things.

00:49:52   - Well, that's what's nice,

00:49:53   'cause it would keep the layout of a standard keyboard,

00:49:56   because that's the way people learn

00:49:58   and are used to typing, right?

00:49:59   'Cause like-- - Old people.

00:50:00   - Right, old people.

00:50:01   But in general, that's where it's laid out that way

00:50:06   for a reason, I guess, I don't know.

00:50:08   I remember CGP Grey talking about

00:50:10   some sort of weirdo keyboard that he uses,

00:50:11   but I mean, again-- - Dvorak, yeah.

00:50:13   - Yeah, why?

00:50:14   But I mean, looking at my keyboard right now

00:50:18   with this floppy skin on it that gets a whole bunch

00:50:21   of crud underneath and it just, it's all pasty.

00:50:24   I don't know, it's not a pretty solution.

00:50:26   I mean, everything's laid out similar,

00:50:28   but it has the shortcuts written on top of them

00:50:30   and it would be really nice to kind of have

00:50:31   that transparency layer be in a digital format instead

00:50:36   and then be able to switch back to see a normal keyboard

00:50:38   instead of revealing the crud-covered keys

00:50:40   that now live underneath this floppy skin.

00:50:42   - And that's like the transitional model

00:50:44   because people who have been using a physical keyboard

00:50:46   to use Photoshop for a long time

00:50:47   have muscle memory for where the key shortcuts are for like the commonly used ones for example,

00:50:51   right? And so if you –

00:50:52   Oh yeah, the common ones. I'm talking about like, you know, some of the obscure stuff.

00:50:56   Yeah, no, but I'm saying like that's the reason why you'd display a virtual keyboard

00:51:00   on the screen instead of something, you know, more sort of like thinking outside the box

00:51:05   because you're not limited by a physical keyboard anymore. You can display anything

00:51:08   you want down there. It could be like a custom palette made for manipulating Photoshop really

00:51:12   quickly. But because people are coming from a world where they're using Photoshop on

00:51:16   PCs and things with regular keyboards, they would probably want a layout that mimics a

00:51:20   physical keyboard only with, like you said, with the overlay on it or whatever.

00:51:23   But eventually I'd have to think that all of us would die out and it would be like,

00:51:27   "Well, why am I showing you a picture of a physical keyboard down there when what you

00:51:31   really want is a custom control layout made specifically for using Photoshop most efficiently,

00:51:38   perhaps that you could even rearrange them?"

00:51:40   So it just becomes another piece of software.

00:51:41   In the same way they let you rearrange all your sidebars and your layers palette and

00:51:45   and all that other stuff and dock things to each other

00:51:47   and customize in that way.

00:51:49   The bottom, the screen that is horizontal

00:51:52   is just another version of the screen that is vertical

00:51:54   and you should be able to lay it out the same way,

00:51:56   even to the point where that could be the surface

00:51:57   that you draw on with your pencil

00:51:58   instead of drawing on your vertical screen on a laptop,

00:52:00   which would never work.

00:52:01   - We're just talking about the multi-pad lifestyle here,

00:52:03   right, essentially, you just put two iPads

00:52:05   next to each other and communicate.

00:52:07   Didn't they have a shuffleboard app

00:52:10   that you could string them all up

00:52:11   and you could throw the pucks right across

00:52:14   like four iPhones. I think Margo and I set that up once. It was pretty sweet. But yeah,

00:52:18   that's basically what this is, right? But in a laptop?

00:52:20   Yeah, well, the patent doesn't say, I mean, it's just a patent, right? But you know, they

00:52:24   try to cover all their bases like, you know, could be a tablet, could be a personal, you

00:52:29   know, they're all vague about it, right? That's the thing with patents. But there's lots of

00:52:32   possibilities here of, you know, applying second screen to a thing that Apple makes,

00:52:39   whether it's an iPad with a second screen that snaps onto it or a laptop thing or both

00:52:45   and you can snap it onto either one with little magnets or something.

00:52:47   Or they just never do anything like this and we'll see.

00:52:50   I don't know.

00:52:51   I can get behind this.

00:52:52   I can get excited about it.

00:52:53   This sounds kind of fun.

00:52:54   So you don't have a hang-up about typing on it?

00:52:56   Because say it was on a laptop or something.

00:52:58   The reason people usually buy physical keyboards for their iPads, there's two reasons.

00:53:02   One is they want to have something they can type on that's not a screen.

00:53:06   But the second one I feel like people forget is having a separate keyboard and iPad frees

00:53:11   up the entire iPad screen for screen purposes.

00:53:14   Yeah, I'm seeing the benefit in having the double screen space.

00:53:17   So if you're doing any kind of – even if you're drawing or typing or doing anything,

00:53:21   the screen space in front of you is precious and you don't want to take half that up

00:53:25   with some keyboard that you're typing on.

00:53:28   But no, I type a lot on my phone.

00:53:30   I don't think it really matters anymore.

00:53:33   Is that working for you?

00:53:34   Seriously?

00:53:35   - Yeah, I mean, I don't type a lot.

00:53:37   - It is so bad for me.

00:53:38   - But I don't type a lot.

00:53:40   I mean, I answer some emails, and even long emails,

00:53:43   I sit and I type them out on my phone

00:53:45   because it's easier being mobile with it

00:53:47   than coming back and sitting at my computer.

00:53:50   - I guess it's a Casey problem.

00:53:51   - Yeah, that's one of the things we've discussed

00:53:54   in the past of how some people really don't like

00:53:56   typing on Glass, but a whole generation of people

00:53:59   is growing up typing on Glass,

00:54:00   and they're not gonna have the same hang-ups about it

00:54:02   that some of us do.

00:54:02   - Yeah, I feel more fine about it.

00:54:05   - Tiff's young at heart.

00:54:06   - I am.

00:54:06   I'm the youngest right here right now, so I mean, come on.

00:54:09   - By like a couple of months or something?

00:54:11   - Yeah, I'm millennial, man.

00:54:12   - I don't like to think about it.

00:54:14   I don't like to think about people born in the '80s.

00:54:16   It's gross.

00:54:17   - Love you too, Jon.

00:54:20   Oh, goodness.

00:54:22   No, I don't know about this patent.

00:54:24   I mean, I'd try anything, and just like you guys said,

00:54:27   the idea of having another screen that's modifiable

00:54:30   to suit your needs or suit the needs

00:54:32   of what's going on right then does sound good.

00:54:35   I never really played, was it the 3DS

00:54:37   that had the two screens set up, is that right?

00:54:39   No, yes? - Still does.

00:54:41   - Okay, I never really played one of those

00:54:43   for more than like two minutes,

00:54:44   and it seemed kind of silly in the two minutes I played it,

00:54:47   but I'm sure that there were plenty of games

00:54:48   where it actually made a lot of sense.

00:54:51   But I don't know, I'd try it.

00:54:52   I'm not great at typing on Glass.

00:54:54   I'm better on a full-size iPad,

00:54:56   which is funny because I don't have a full-size iPad

00:54:58   in the house, but I mean, I'd give it a shot.

00:55:01   But man, I can't imagine I would want,

00:55:03   especially for a full-on computer,

00:55:05   I would enjoy having glass as my only input mechanism.

00:55:09   - What was that projection keyboard from like Microsoft?

00:55:12   - That never worked?

00:55:13   It was from Sharper Image, I think.

00:55:14   - I know what you're thinking, that's right.

00:55:15   - No, we went into a Microsoft store

00:55:16   when we had Adam was young enough to be strapped to me,

00:55:19   you know, like in a little harness thing

00:55:22   that you wear when you wear your babies.

00:55:24   And we were in a Microsoft store

00:55:25   typing on some sort of like projected keyboard.

00:55:28   - Yeah, they still make those.

00:55:29   That I feel like is even worse than the screen ones

00:55:31   that never quite worked as well as even a screen keyboard would.

00:55:35   Well, yeah, and you couldn't see it too well either. It wasn't great.

00:55:38   Oh, yeah, yeah. All right. So before we do Ask ATP, we're going to do a brief Ask TIFF.

00:55:45   And I'm assuming that this was mostly Jon's work that I'm now taking credit for, but I

00:55:49   will emcee and let Jon take over as soon as he sees it necessary. Tiff, what's your favorite

00:55:55   tech product right now?

00:55:57   These questions. I mean, come on, dudes.

00:56:00   tech podcasts you must endure. It's all John. These questions are so cheesy. Alright, my

00:56:07   favorite tech product right now I would have to say is the Switch because I've been playing

00:56:12   it constantly. So go Switch. Are you playing it handheld or on the TV mostly? TV with the

00:56:19   Pro Controller. Good. Yep. The proper way. But I put stickers on the Pro Controllers.

00:56:26   Oh, that's fine. You got the doggy stickers.

00:56:28   Well, the dog sticker is on the main, um, the little joy con set up holder thing.

00:56:33   Yeah. That may when it actually looks like a little dog.

00:56:36   But on the back of all of our pro controllers,

00:56:39   we each have kind of like our own sticker.

00:56:40   So each family member has their own controller. You know,

00:56:44   I do still love my switch, but I almost,

00:56:47   I feel like I never have time to play it.

00:56:48   And the part of the problem I have with the switch is that I've only made it,

00:56:53   I would guess like a quarter of the way through Zelda despite having had it for months now.

00:56:58   Oh my goodness.

00:56:59   And I feel like it's so hard, and maybe this, maybe it's me, but it's hard for me to pick

00:57:04   it up, play it for like 10 or 15 minutes, put it back down, and then remember what the

00:57:08   crap I was working on the next day when I pick it up again.

00:57:10   Like, Zelda is not the kind of game that you just pick up and play for 10 or 15 minutes

00:57:14   and put down.

00:57:15   It totally is.

00:57:16   You just haven't, here's the thing, it is that type of game, especially this Zelda is

00:57:19   that type of game, but the problem is that you have not...

00:57:21   Because you don't have to do anything.

00:57:23   It's so...

00:57:24   Yeah, fair.

00:57:25   But the thing is, the game hasn't grabbed you.

00:57:27   That's the problem.

00:57:28   If the game grabbed you, the way it works, showing that you can dip into it, is, yeah,

00:57:33   you only have 15 minutes, so you dip into it and do a thing.

00:57:36   But if the game has actually grabbed you and really gotten your attention, all the while

00:57:39   you're not playing, you're thinking about, "Here's what I'm going to do the next time

00:57:42   I play.

00:57:43   I'm going to go over here, I'm going to do this thing, and then I'm going to do that

00:57:44   thing, and maybe I'll think about it."

00:57:45   Like, you're thinking about it, you're thinking about this place, this virtual place, even

00:57:50   when you're not there. If you don't get grabbed in that way, when you come back, it'll be

00:57:54   like, "Okay, reboot everything. Where the hell was I in this game?" Because you haven't

00:57:59   been thinking about it since then. So it's not, I don't think it's that the game doesn't

00:58:01   allow you to play in short spurts. It's just that it hasn't really got its hooks into you.

00:58:05   It's just not connecting with you or whatever. Yeah, because when I was very into Odyssey,

00:58:09   I could sit down and play Odyssey for like 10 minutes, get one moon and then shut it

00:58:16   You know, like I would be like, oh, I'm just gonna do this real quick because and the same thing with Zelda, too

00:58:21   You could just play a quick little temple and be like, all right

00:58:24   I'm just gonna beat this temple and then I'm just gonna shut it off and I'm gonna go do something else

00:58:28   Yeah, and maybe that's part of the problem in and now I'm showing my inability to play games

00:58:33   But I feel like I got all of the temples that were easily accessible

00:58:36   So like none of the so I did your eyes, please like I can't allow us to continue. Sorry. Thank you

00:58:41   I went to the I went to all of the shrines

00:58:44   I'm sorry John, I'm sorry.

00:58:48   You must now do 10 push-ups.

00:58:49   No, I went to all the, and I do too, I went to all the shrines that were easily accessible

00:58:54   and now all that remains that I can see anyway are like in the super hot lava-y area or like

00:59:00   the super cold tundra-y area.

00:59:03   All the shrines, they were easily accessible.

00:59:04   Can you put a number on that for us, please?

00:59:06   I honestly don't remember.

00:59:07   I can, give me a minute.

00:59:08   Oh my gosh, there's so many.

00:59:09   You can't even find them all.

00:59:10   Well then that's probably the thing is just I'm not exploring the right areas.

00:59:13   Hold on. Let me see if my switch is even sure you don't have to do shrines at all

00:59:15   You don't do shrines don't do shrines

00:59:17   Like that's the thing about the Zelda like if there's something you find it, you know

00:59:20   Just like maybe you just want to get that you're the best horse you can get right you could spend hours

00:59:25   Just fine. Oh you you got to get a lot of you got to get a lot of donut to get the best horse

00:59:29   You can get let me tell you, you know one thing that is really nice that

00:59:33   I like about having my macbook is I just ripped the power charger

00:59:39   cable-y thing out of my MacBook, slammed it into the Switch, and unfortunately it's like

00:59:44   any modern iOS device in that it needs to be at least slightly charged, even if it's

00:59:47   hooked up to power to turn it on.

00:59:50   But just grabbing my computer's power cord and putting it into my video game system's

00:59:54   power cord, that's pretty cool.

00:59:56   Wait, you just did that right now?

00:59:57   Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:59:58   Wait, why is the Switch in your office?

01:00:01   Because it's...

01:00:02   I never play it on the TV, sorry guys, and to be honest I never really play it at all.

01:00:05   Even though I do enjoy it, it's not that I enjoy it really any less.

01:00:08   I just never have a chance.

01:00:10   - That's why you're not playing

01:00:11   because it's not in like the hub of the house.

01:00:13   It's not in the enjoyment center.

01:00:15   That sounds gross.

01:00:18   - Well, he's just not that into it

01:00:21   as they used to say in the 90s.

01:00:23   (laughing)

01:00:24   But like one of the great things about the Switch,

01:00:26   especially for short gaming sessions

01:00:30   is that of all the gaming things I have ever known,

01:00:33   it is the fastest from powering on

01:00:37   to picking up where you left off. Now granted it's easy because it's not an MMO or whatever,

01:00:41   but you turn that thing back on and you are the exact millisecond you were in Zelda.

01:00:45   Yes, it's awesome.

01:00:46   And I love that. I love that, you know, that's no boot screen, no spinners, no cursors, no,

01:00:52   you know, no anything. I wish Destiny did that. Obviously you can't because of online

01:00:56   stuff, but that makes it so easy to just dip in, run, do a thing, grab a thing, fight a

01:01:01   person, put it back to sleep, and then just pick up right where you left off.

01:01:04   You can even be a total monster and play half of a Mario Kart race and then pause it and

01:01:09   then come back and pick it up.

01:01:11   Although I would, that's the thing about that.

01:01:13   I do it sometimes with Alto's Adventure and Alto's Odyssey now.

01:01:16   When you're having a long session and you think you're doing well, sometimes you think,

01:01:21   "I should take a break now because I'm approaching my record and if I take a break, I will reset

01:01:26   all the goodness and I'll come back to this later when I haven't burned through my attention

01:01:31   or whatever."

01:01:32   other hand you might come back to it and you're not in the groove anymore. So

01:01:35   knowing when is a smart time to take a break and how long that break should be.

01:01:40   Jon, you have to know when to hold them and know when to hold them.

01:01:44   Totally, totally true. I found with Alto that it is useful to take a break but it

01:01:49   cannot be a very long way because I don't want to get out of the flow but

01:01:52   sometimes I do want to release whatever tension I feel like is building up. Also

01:01:55   my problem with Alto and Elzad, I see an adventure is that eventually when you

01:02:00   good your games start lasting a really long time and it's like do I have 45 minutes to play Alto?

01:02:05   Maybe not. 45 minutes to sit there and do nothing? That sounds amazing. I'm doing nothing. I'm going

01:02:11   downhill. You know what I mean? I don't mean that in a disparaging way. I'm just saying like to

01:02:16   just have 45 minutes. I go that way really fast. If something gets in my way, I turn.

01:02:24   It's an 80s reference for you 90s kids.

01:02:26   Nope, not a bit.

01:02:28   Yeah, I got nothing.

01:02:29   I know, it's fine.

01:02:30   I'm playing Marco, so I don't get it.

01:02:31   You're doing great.

01:02:32   Thanks.

01:02:33   Favorite tech product, the Switch.

01:02:35   What tech thing is Tiff most looking forward to in 2018?

01:02:38   I'm looking forward to getting Marco's computer

01:02:43   after he's done, how about that?

01:02:46   That's good, all right.

01:02:47   Yeah.

01:02:48   After he's done, all right, so I think more accurately

01:02:51   be after he decides to buy the Mac Pro, you're going to take his computer and then when he

01:02:55   returns the Mac Pro, you're not giving it back.

01:02:57   Right.

01:02:58   I am definitely buying the Mac Pro.

01:03:01   We know, we know, computer man.

01:03:03   Everyone knew.

01:03:04   This is like me definitely not buying the watch.

01:03:07   Everyone knows you're buying a Mac Pro.

01:03:09   All right, if you could change one, oh, I'm not asking this.

01:03:12   This is all tech-related.

01:03:13   Yes, no, it's tech-related.

01:03:14   No, you ask this.

01:03:15   I'm not doing this.

01:03:16   This question's like the dating game.

01:03:18   I know, right?

01:03:20   yeah so this question is make whoopee yeah in the butt if you could change one

01:03:28   if you could change one tech related thing about Marco what would it be I

01:03:33   feel like this is safer because it's tech related we're not asking you to

01:03:36   like critique him as his being one tech related thing about Marco what would it

01:03:40   be if I could change one tech related thing about Marco what would it be it

01:03:46   can be like a thing that he does with tech that you don't like a product that

01:03:50   has that you wish you didn't like anything anything tech related I wish

01:03:54   you would play games a little bit more but then I would have less time to play

01:03:58   games to play cop games yeah yeah well we played um Oh digital Marco what was

01:04:07   that one where you're under the bunker and we played it like back and forth

01:04:11   shadow complex yeah shadow complex that was fun when we did that and we had time

01:04:15   and things. You kind of you do your kind of not co-op playing but like backseat driver playing

01:04:22   no can yeah over the shoulder playing with each other with Stardew Valley or like when the one

01:04:27   person has played the other person is advising right? Yeah yeah we did that we did that for

01:04:30   Odyssey 2 a little bit well it was more I advise Marco or laughed when he totally missed stuff

01:04:36   like the good wife that I am. So but no that's that's a terrible answer. I don't know. That's

01:04:44   That's pretty good. I mean, that's tech related. You wish he played games for.

01:04:47   I mean, he's so supportive when it comes to getting technology stuff all set up

01:04:51   for me or if I need his help with anything.

01:04:54   He doesn't get mad if I need extra help.

01:04:56   We're not asking you to say the good things about him.

01:04:58   Yeah, well he's great. I don't know.

01:05:01   I am the best.

01:05:02   All right. I take away that. Whatever he's using right now,

01:05:06   I would take that away from him. He should not be allowed to have this.

01:05:09   It's freaking me out.

01:05:10   Good luck.

01:05:11   Just tell him to pass a different argument to the,

01:05:14   there's a voice parameter to the command he's running.

01:05:16   He can pick a different voice.

01:05:17   He just keeps picking the default Fred one, which is boring.

01:05:19   - Yeah, you should definitely pick

01:05:21   the sexy Australian Siri voice

01:05:24   because that one's pretty good.

01:05:25   - All right, and I would ask the next question,

01:05:27   but I have no idea what it means.

01:05:28   So go ahead, Jon.

01:05:29   - Well, I put that in there.

01:05:32   - Oh, okay.

01:05:33   - But you don't have to say it.

01:05:35   It's fine.

01:05:36   Okay, so you know how there's so many different companies

01:05:38   now that gather or collaborate a box that they send you

01:05:43   and you can get like a quarterly box

01:05:45   or a weekly box of whatever things.

01:05:48   Well, Pusheen, the little gray internet cat has a box

01:05:53   and it's stupid expensive and it comes quarterly

01:05:58   but it does look pretty cute.

01:06:01   So I've kind of been debating about it.

01:06:03   - So what's in it?

01:06:03   I'm familiar with Pusheen,

01:06:05   I'm not familiar with the box idea.

01:06:07   Well, it's just a whole bunch of merch.

01:06:09   Like the best way to describe it in like the cheesiest way possible, because it

01:06:15   is, it's just like, here's some Pusheen socks and a little vinyl figure.

01:06:20   And, uh, I don't know, like a towel and a printed turban.

01:06:25   I don't know.

01:06:26   Like there's like all kinds of weird stuff in there that you get.

01:06:28   And so it's like, you don't get to pick.

01:06:30   So it's kind of like a surprise where you're like, I wonder what I'll get.

01:06:33   Yeah.

01:06:33   It's like a curated collection of Pusheen paraphernalia.

01:06:38   - Does the box cost more or less

01:06:41   than the sum of the retail prices of the things it contains?

01:06:43   - Well, less.

01:06:44   That's usually the appeal of the whole box situation.

01:06:47   But they say, you know,

01:06:48   it's a hundred dollar value for only 69.99 or so.

01:06:52   - So since this is a question

01:06:55   that you are asking about yourself,

01:06:57   my answer based on the experience seeing my children

01:07:03   have way too many possessions is that you really,

01:07:07   it's not so much about whether the box will be exciting,

01:07:10   it's about what happens with the stuff

01:07:11   that's in the box after because you will rapidly run out

01:07:14   of places to display things no matter how cute they are.

01:07:18   - That's it, that's the answer I needed.

01:07:19   So it's no, no to the Poohsheen box.

01:07:22   I will just enjoy it on Instagram.

01:07:24   - Plus you got a whole new art room

01:07:26   and all you're gonna be flirting with art junk.

01:07:27   So there's, you're gonna be getting plenty of boxes of stuff.

01:07:30   - Yeah, oh, I'll have plenty of stuff to fill my art room

01:07:32   but it's a good idea not to invest in the pooching box.

01:07:36   Thank you, that really did help, actually.

01:07:39   - See, this is the opposite of the advice Marco gives,

01:07:41   because with almost all things, Marco's advice is,

01:07:43   oh yeah, definitely buy it.

01:07:45   - Now, Marco is free to get her one of those boxes

01:07:47   for a special occasion,

01:07:47   'cause she wouldn't have bought it for herself,

01:07:49   but now here's a box.

01:07:49   But an ongoing commitment to continual boxes,

01:07:52   you will run out of places to put that stuff.

01:07:54   - Oh, no, no, I wasn't gonna commit

01:07:55   to the whole yearly box situation.

01:07:57   I was just thinking for spring,

01:07:59   like Easter Bunny situation, treat yourself.

01:08:01   - You can get one box, I feel like, but be careful,

01:08:04   'cause one box turns into me.

01:08:05   - No, see, no, I'm just gonna open it,

01:08:07   and then it's gonna be over,

01:08:09   so I might as well watch a video of somebody opening it.

01:08:11   Like, you get the same thrill.

01:08:13   - There you go, now you'll be like every other,

01:08:15   you know, seven-year-old kid who watches Disembodied Hands

01:08:19   silently, silently unbox things on YouTube

01:08:21   for hours and hours, making people millionaires.

01:08:23   - Yeah, why not? - What the hell?

01:08:24   - Spread the wealth.

01:08:25   - Where do I figure out how many shrines I have in Zelda?

01:08:29   - In their load screen?

01:08:30   on the loading screen in the upper right.

01:08:32   - Oh God, I wasn't paying attention.

01:08:33   - In the hood?

01:08:34   - It was something like, it was 20 some shrines,

01:08:37   which I'm sure is where you go,

01:08:38   "Oh God, are you kidding me?" - Oh my God.

01:08:40   - Exactly. - Yeah, you're not a quarter.

01:08:42   - You're a baby, oh my goodness.

01:08:44   - Sorry, I do have the elephant dude.

01:08:46   What is that called?

01:08:47   The divine beast, there you go.

01:08:48   - Ruta?

01:08:49   - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, there you go.

01:08:51   - I just had to draw a whole bunch of those for Adam.

01:08:53   He kept requesting them for his lunchbox notes.

01:08:56   And I'm like, "Look, I need like two days

01:08:58   "to draw a divine beast kid.

01:08:59   Like I can't whip that out in the morning in like 20 minutes.

01:09:02   Tell them you can't give away your eye for free anymore.

01:09:05   Yeah, you have to buy it.

01:09:06   Wow.

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01:10:54   [Music]

01:10:58   All right. Jimmy Bossy? Bossy?

01:11:01   Buffett.

01:11:01   Jimmy Bose. Jimmy writes in, "Max out hearts or stamina?" I'm assuming this is a video game

01:11:07   thing. I'm assuming about Zelda, is it not?

01:11:09   Yay!

01:11:10   Is that how we're reading this? Okay. This is actually relevant to my interests if I

01:11:14   ever get back to this game. So Marco or just Marco, geezy peasy, I'm so pleased to see Marco

01:11:19   Marco and Jon.

01:11:20   So Tiff and Jon, what do you recommend?

01:11:23   Let's start with Tiff.

01:11:24   - I'm gonna go with stamina, AKA Donut,

01:11:27   which Adam calls it Donut,

01:11:28   but Marco insists that he came up with the name,

01:11:30   but it's really cute and we call it the Donut.

01:11:33   I definitely think Donut,

01:11:34   because the more stamina you have,

01:11:37   the more you can explore,

01:11:39   and then you can get hearts later.

01:11:40   So stamina is way more important to max out first.

01:11:44   - I think this is a choice that people put on themselves,

01:11:46   like with these extremes here, max out hearts or stamina.

01:11:49   So long term, obviously you're going to max out both, right?

01:11:52   That's your, you know, if you just keep playing the game, it's going to happen.

01:11:55   People really want to know is, in the early game, where should you put your points, essentially?

01:12:00   And my experience, I know there's a lot of people who say, "Oh, just put everything into

01:12:04   stamina," but like, Breath of the Wild is, you're more likely to die in Breath of the

01:12:11   Wild than you are in a lot of recent Zelda's.

01:12:14   Because they start you weak and because there's no sort of guided path through the game, you

01:12:17   find yourself encountering enemies that want to kill you.

01:12:21   And so I don't feel like it's good advice to tell somebody, just put everything into

01:12:25   stamina.

01:12:26   If you want to do like a recipe, like a two to one ratio, like two in stamina, one in

01:12:30   hearts, two in stamina, one in hearts, just pick like a pattern like that that has some

01:12:35   reasonable balance and go with it.

01:12:36   I do agree that if you have to weight one, weight stamina more than you think you should

01:12:41   weight hearts.

01:12:42   But I'm hesitant to tell people put everything into stamina because you will die a lot and

01:12:46   I feel like that is just as frustrating as not being able to climb a hill.

01:12:49   But I'm super into climbing.

01:12:51   And also, by the way, you will max out stamina long before you max out your heart.

01:12:55   So if you do this two to one ratio or any kind of thing that favors stamina, you will

01:12:58   max out your stamina and you'll feel sad.

01:13:00   You're like, "Really?

01:13:01   That's all I can get?"

01:13:02   Yeah, that's all you can get.

01:13:03   And then you'll just spend everything else on hearts.

01:13:04   And then you'll get upset.

01:13:05   Yeah.

01:13:06   Yeah, I agree with Jon.

01:13:07   You articulated that in a much more delicate and poetic way.

01:13:13   But I…

01:13:15   This is my life.

01:13:16   - Every Wednesday night.

01:13:16   - I know, it's like, duh, do the stamina.

01:13:19   And John is like, well, actually,

01:13:22   let me eloquently tell you exactly.

01:13:25   - I did not say well, actually, defend myself.

01:13:28   - But yes, I agree with you, John,

01:13:30   that you should do a little bit here, a little bit there,

01:13:33   but more stamina is better.

01:13:34   So get a good recipe going.

01:13:36   - Brian Middleton writes,

01:13:37   what arcade games are each of you nostalgic for

01:13:39   from your childhood?

01:13:40   Is there one game that you would like to own?

01:13:42   And this time let's start with John.

01:13:43   And I actually have answers for this, thank you very much.

01:13:45   but we'll start with Jon.

01:13:47   - I was trying to think of this.

01:13:49   Like, it's the one game I want to go with easier,

01:13:51   but like games are nostalgic for it.

01:13:53   There's so many.

01:13:54   I did spend a lot of time in arcades as a kid.

01:13:58   - I have mine.

01:13:59   Do you want to think about it?

01:14:01   - Yeah, go ahead.

01:14:01   I mean, I'm probably not going to pick one

01:14:03   because this is in top four,

01:14:04   but if you're, you should,

01:14:05   you definitely have an answer, you go.

01:14:07   - Okay.

01:14:08   "Skiball."

01:14:09   Yes.

01:14:10   It's totally an arcade game.

01:14:12   - I know they said arcade game and not video game.

01:14:14   Yes, they did say arcade game and not video game.

01:14:16   Totally skee-ball and I would love to own a skee-ball thing in my house.

01:14:20   That would be awesome.

01:14:21   Well, that's what you're nostalgic for from your childhood as well.

01:14:24   Yeah, I played skee-ball all the time as a kid.

01:14:27   Every time I went to arcades, that's what I would play.

01:14:28   Tiff, you should listen to this show called Top 4 where the rules really don't matter

01:14:32   and the points and rankings are all made up because that was a very top 4 answer to that

01:14:36   question.

01:14:37   I know.

01:14:38   Top 4 arcade games.

01:14:39   Oh, you already know my top one, so busted.

01:14:41   Spoiler alert.

01:14:42   You do top four video games and then you don't have the artist people.

01:14:44   We already did that.

01:14:45   First episode, man.

01:14:46   For real?

01:14:47   It really was that?

01:14:48   Yeah, it was.

01:14:49   But you have to revisit it because now there's been so many new games come out.

01:14:53   I know.

01:14:54   Yeah, we have to do a top four mistakes.

01:14:57   You hadn't even played Stardew at that point?

01:14:59   You hadn't played Mario Odyssey?

01:15:00   I know.

01:15:01   And I made the big mistake of not putting Journey on there.

01:15:03   So it's all coming back to me now.

01:15:04   I blocked it out.

01:15:07   For me, these answers are truly and utterly terrible, but I don't care because they're

01:15:11   my answers. What would I love to have? We actually do have a pinball machine in the

01:15:15   house but, but...

01:15:17   It's true, I've seen it.

01:15:19   It is, it is old. It's older than I. Probably not older than Jon. Hey-o! But anyway, I would

01:15:25   love to have either Street Fighter II, which is actually an okay answer, or Cruisin' USA,

01:15:32   which is a truly and utterly terrible game that I loved when I was a kid. See also Tropic

01:15:39   No, not Tropic Thunder, that's the movie, isn't it?

01:15:41   It was Hydro Thunder or something like that, which is basically Cruise in the USA, but

01:15:44   boats.

01:15:45   Either one of those I think would be tremendous.

01:15:48   And I don't know why.

01:15:50   Like, Street Fighter, yeah, you can make a pretty decent argument, I would imagine, that

01:15:53   that was actually a good arcade game.

01:15:55   Cruise in the USA and, I forgot, what was it called, Hydro Thunder?

01:15:59   Both really not good games, but oh man, I spent so many hours playing those in the arcades.

01:16:04   And by arcades, I mean like in a Fuddruckers or something like that.

01:16:08   But God, they were fun.

01:16:11   Yeah, I spent a lot of time in arcades, so much so that I think--

01:16:16   one of my first memories is learning that five times four

01:16:20   is 20 from putting a $5 bill into--

01:16:24   learning multiplication based on bills

01:16:27   that you would put into the machine that would give you quarters.

01:16:30   That's how young I was.

01:16:31   I guess before multiplication tables.

01:16:33   And also, the other factor that comes into this

01:16:35   is that arcades, I probably still like this, I think, but even when I was a kid, like,

01:16:43   games come into an arcade, right, and they don't really leave. So when they got the

01:16:48   Space Invaders machine...

01:16:49   So until California.

01:16:50   Yeah, probably, yeah, probably before I was, probably before I was even born, when was

01:16:54   Space Invaders? Before I was old enough to play Space Invaders, someone got a Space Invaders

01:16:58   machine, and it would just be there, and it would stay there, and then they would get

01:17:00   Pac-Man, and then they would get Ms. Pac-Man, they got Galaga, and they got Centipede, and

01:17:03   like just you know all the different things and it's kind of like this like layers of

01:17:08   sediment like the lower down you go the older the games get so they never left so I played

01:17:14   all these games some games that were before my time at the same time like afterburner

01:17:18   would come out and it was the big 50 cent machine and the thing moved and so on and

01:17:21   so forth but still pac-man was sitting right there at space invaders missile command was

01:17:25   still there missile command compared to afterburner it was like but in the same arcade so I have

01:17:29   this huge spread of things that I'm nostalgic for, going all the way from, you know, things

01:17:33   like Centipede and Millipede and Pac-Man and stuff like that, all the way up to the quote

01:17:37   unquote fancy new games like Hydro Thunder or Afterburn and stuff like that.

01:17:41   So I can't -- if I had to pick one, I would probably say Gauntlet, the original, because

01:17:46   I think that was -- I think I had the most fun playing that, because it was four-person,

01:17:51   sort of side-by-side, in-person, which was -- Gauntlet was the first game in my arcade

01:17:55   anyway that did this.

01:17:56   That was a novel experience versus you just standing there fighting against yourself or

01:18:00   the high scorers or whatever.

01:18:01   So Gauntlet is my most nostalgic pick.

01:18:03   Now, which game would I like to own?

01:18:05   None of them because arcade machines are huge.

01:18:07   Just get, just play the game.

01:18:10   That is true.

01:18:11   And pinball machines are both huge and weigh a ton.

01:18:14   I cannot even begin to describe to you how heavy that pinball machine is.

01:18:17   It is preposterous.

01:18:18   Now, Jon, why, why in your fantasies do you always think about putting, like, if someone

01:18:25   ask you, well, what would you pick to put in your house like an arcade game or something?

01:18:29   And then your fantasy, you're squeezing this fantasy object into your real house.

01:18:34   Because I respect the parameters of the problem. They didn't say all in all, you get you get

01:18:38   unlimited money to make a giant house. If I had a giant house, surely I would have a

01:18:42   full arcade and then everyone had to pick a game. I would have all the games. Well,

01:18:45   see, then you could say things like that. Because I don't assume that that means like,

01:18:49   okay, actually put these things in your house. So I feel like if you would want that thing,

01:18:53   it would already be in your house.

01:18:54   - Yeah, so which would you like to own?

01:18:56   Some people might have an answer.

01:18:57   Like some people might say,

01:18:58   "Look, I was really into the Star Wars,

01:19:01   the vector Star Wars game,

01:19:02   and I would love to have one of those in my house."

01:19:03   People do, they buy them,

01:19:04   but they buy that one game

01:19:05   'cause they have room for one of it.

01:19:06   And they make room for one game

01:19:08   in their otherwise normal house.

01:19:09   I'm just saying like,

01:19:10   there is no game that I want enough to make room for it

01:19:13   in my otherwise normal house.

01:19:15   - Yeah, but I couldn't put a skeeball game in my house,

01:19:17   but I'm still like, that's what I would want in my house.

01:19:19   - You totally could.

01:19:20   - No.

01:19:21   - You have an art room.

01:19:22   If you cared as much about skeeball as you did about art?

01:19:24   - The art room is outside of the house.

01:19:26   - Whatever, the whole point is,

01:19:27   if you were into skeeball instead of art,

01:19:29   you could put a skeeball thing in there.

01:19:31   (laughing)

01:19:33   - This is my skeeball.

01:19:34   - So mommy needs to have some private time.

01:19:36   She's gonna go flexible.

01:19:38   And I did enjoy skeeball, by the way.

01:19:39   - Yeah, my landlord goes and asks me

01:19:41   why I'm renting this space, and I'm like,

01:19:42   "Well, I am an avid skeeball player,

01:19:45   "and I just don't have room for it in my house."

01:19:46   - Gonna be in the skeeball Olympics, I need to train.

01:19:49   - Me too.

01:19:49   (laughing)

01:19:51   I bet you there is.

01:19:52   I bet you there is totally professional skeeball players.

01:19:54   - Oh yeah, no, I've played a lot of that.

01:19:56   I do have nostalgia with skeeball.

01:19:59   - Skeeball is so fun.

01:20:00   I'm terrible at it.

01:20:01   I am truly and utterly terrible at it.

01:20:02   - This year, all right, so here's a question.

01:20:05   Two questions, two parts to this.

01:20:07   All right, so the skeeball angle is,

01:20:09   if you had a skeeball machine in your house,

01:20:11   would it be important to you that it gives tickets?

01:20:13   - Ooh.

01:20:14   - Yes, and I would have a basket of things

01:20:16   that you could win with the tickets.

01:20:18   (laughing)

01:20:19   - All right, now if you have an arcade game in your house,

01:20:21   would you make it take quarters?

01:20:23   - Yes, because then you would use the quarters

01:20:26   for fun stuff later on.

01:20:28   - Our pinball machine does not take quarters.

01:20:31   I mean, it has the slot for it.

01:20:32   - That's all part of the ceremony.

01:20:33   - Yeah, I feel like then it's like restricting it

01:20:36   in some like weird kind of not important way

01:20:39   because you're in your house.

01:20:41   - You can make like a little cardboard thing

01:20:43   with an NFC or QR code on it.

01:20:45   You'd hold it in front of the game.

01:20:48   - I like the idea of having to go to the bank

01:20:49   get a roll of quarters to play a game in your own home.

01:20:52   No, what you need to have is a token machine. So you have to build it and then you get little

01:20:58   armament tokens that you can only spend in the armament arcade.

01:21:00   Ah, yes! Custom tokens!

01:21:02   Armament arcade. Can you imagine Adam Armament's arcade? There you go.

01:21:05   Oh, we're building this. Digital Marco, write that down in the good ideas list, please.

01:21:11   Done.

01:21:12   Oh my god.

01:21:13   So you pay the miners with money they can only spend at the company store, see?

01:21:19   (laughing)

01:21:20   - The final Ask ATP question,

01:21:22   which Tiff is probably the most equipped to answer,

01:21:26   Simon Tanler asks, "What are some good resources,

01:21:29   "blogs, books, people to follow, et cetera,

01:21:31   "for photography beginners?

01:21:34   "Not really gear-wise, more about learning the craft."

01:21:36   - So I read this and I was thinking,

01:21:41   at first thought I was thinking of like,

01:21:44   pretty much the one photographer that I follow,

01:21:46   and that's Jamie Beck.

01:21:49   And she has been living in Provence for the past year

01:21:53   and doing a lot of still life photography

01:21:55   and actually showing her techniques

01:21:57   with using film and digital.

01:22:00   And it's just been really fascinating to watch.

01:22:02   So she's a really great one to check out.

01:22:04   But it's very personal what you wanna see

01:22:09   as to learn for technique and craft

01:22:12   on what type of photography you want.

01:22:14   It's a lot like art, right?

01:22:15   Like you find a style that you're very into

01:22:18   or an artist that you're very into.

01:22:20   And I think a great resource for that right now

01:22:23   is Instagram.

01:22:25   And if you find one photographer or one,

01:22:29   I'm just gonna say artist, it doesn't matter,

01:22:31   it translates both ways.

01:22:31   So you find a photographer on there that you really like,

01:22:34   and you can see who they follow or who follows them,

01:22:38   and especially in the Explore tab.

01:22:40   And then it kind of rolls into finding other photographers

01:22:45   that are interesting to you,

01:22:48   whether it's landscape or it's portraits

01:22:50   or it's various different styles,

01:22:52   the way they shoot texture, the way they shoot light.

01:22:54   And I think if you start following that

01:22:56   and you start looking at a lot of pictures

01:22:59   and a lot of other people's work,

01:23:00   it can kind of open up your eye

01:23:02   to find a style that you like.

01:23:04   And at first, when you're practicing,

01:23:06   it is not a problem to mimic someone else's work.

01:23:09   Obviously give credit, don't charge for it,

01:23:12   don't try and sell it, but being it for you

01:23:15   as a learning experience, I think that that is

01:23:18   a fantastic way to open up your creativity

01:23:22   and then you can move on from there.

01:23:24   But I've been loving Instagram for following artists

01:23:28   and seeing the way that they do different techniques

01:23:30   and then that kind of, it snowballs into the next person

01:23:34   that I follow and then they follow other people

01:23:36   that are similar but slightly different

01:23:38   and you kind of can see how someone's art or photography

01:23:41   evolves through even their own personal feed.

01:23:44   And it's been really valuable to kind of immersing yourself

01:23:49   in all of that and that's what I would definitely suggest.

01:23:53   So Instagram.

01:23:54   - Yeah, I would agree with that.

01:23:55   I still love Instagram and even though it's owned

01:23:58   by Facebook and Facebook is getting ever more creepy

01:24:00   with each passing moment, I adore Instagram.

01:24:03   I look at Instagram a lot.

01:24:06   Somebody that I, a photographer that I admire quite a bit on Instagram is Erin Brooks, whose

01:24:11   username on Instagram is Erin R. Brooks.

01:24:14   She has two young daughters and most of her shots are of her or of her kids or her and

01:24:21   her kids.

01:24:22   And I would guess about a third to a half are like a big camera, but half to two thirds

01:24:29   are just her iPhone.

01:24:30   And what's really great is as we record this, she's done some Instagram stories where she

01:24:35   she'll take a shot that she shot on her iPhone and show how she like tweaks it and and

01:24:41   edits it all on her iPhone in order to make it into the final product and I think she's a great follow

01:24:48   I'm sure that there's a bunch of others that I'm not thinking of but she's really great

01:24:52   Also, if you happen to do if you happen to like say a particular subject matter like cars, for example

01:24:58   I don't know if anyone on this, you know show has ever talked about cars for any length of time

01:25:01   but you know, there's oftentimes a lot of

01:25:04   Really good car related accounts or maybe it's watches if that's your thing, whatever the case may be

01:25:10   Oftentimes you'll find somebody that that likes not only photography but that thing

01:25:15   and it's really great to follow them because you can get a lot of the same kind of ideas about composition and

01:25:22   Depth of field and things like that just by looking at shots of cars, you know

01:25:27   They're pretty cars and they're pretty shots and it works out

01:25:29   well. One other photographer that I really like that I think people should

01:25:33   check out if they like portraiture Benoit Paile. I think that's how you

01:25:45   pronounce his name but anyway he's an amazing portrait photographer and you

01:25:50   should check out his work it's just stunning. How do you feel about Marco's

01:25:55   taste in cars which is another way to come at it is when it's time for you to

01:25:59   to get your next car, are you going to get an electric one?

01:26:01   How do you feel about your car?

01:26:02   Like, what's your take on the car situation

01:26:05   in the Arman household?

01:26:07   - Oh, my car is a dinosaur,

01:26:09   and I forget to fill it up with gas,

01:26:11   so I don't wanna do that anymore,

01:26:14   and I definitely want a Tesla for my next car.

01:26:18   - Big one or small one?

01:26:18   Like, you have-- - The small one.

01:26:20   I want the small one.

01:26:21   - The Roadster or the 3?

01:26:23   - The 3, the new one that's gonna come out,

01:26:25   or has come out, or has a big waiting list to come out.

01:26:27   I don't know.

01:26:28   in two years when my lease is up, we're good to go.

01:26:31   Have you looked at the dashboard that Casey hates so much?

01:26:35   Oh, I don't care. I'll figure it out. I just don't want to fill my car up with gas anymore.

01:26:38   So it'll be easier just to have two Teslas. Right? That sounds reasonable.

01:26:45   You used to be taking your car because Margo had anxiety about the superchargers, but now

01:26:50   it seems like you're just taking a Tesla all the time and I don't know what you use your

01:26:54   car for.

01:26:55   I don't know what I use my car for either.

01:26:56   I like go down the block sometimes.

01:26:58   I drive around the corner

01:27:01   when I don't want to walk home at night

01:27:03   and hang out with my friends.

01:27:04   - So it seems like you've collectively gotten over

01:27:06   the whole like whatever the limitations of electric car

01:27:08   and you've felt them out to the point where now

01:27:10   there's no reason for you to have a gas car in reserve

01:27:12   just in case you say you need to flee

01:27:14   an expanding mushroom cloud or something.

01:27:16   - Wow.

01:27:17   - Yeah, I'm abandoning it.

01:27:19   I mean, the amount of times that I forget

01:27:21   to fill it up with gas versus how many times

01:27:23   Mushroom cloud might be here.

01:27:25   I'm going to go with the Tesla.

01:27:27   - Well, if you order the three now,

01:27:28   you might get about time releases up.

01:27:30   - That's true. - Interesting point.

01:27:31   - Marco, we should order that.

01:27:33   - On it.

01:27:34   - This is like the version of anything

01:27:37   so shopping list thing.

01:27:38   - It is. - Right, right, right.

01:27:39   - Marco, add model three to shopping list.

01:27:42   - Do you want me to search the web for add model three?

01:27:45   (laughing)

01:27:47   - Well played, robot Marco, well played.

01:27:50   Are we done here?

01:27:50   I think we're done.

01:27:51   Well, thanks to our sponsors, Casper, Fracture and Squarespace, and we'll see you next week.

01:27:56   Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin

01:28:03   'Cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental

01:28:09   John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

01:28:14   'Cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental

01:28:19   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

01:28:24   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them

01:28:30   @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

01:28:34   So that's Casey List M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:28:38   Auntie Marco Arment S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A

01:28:46   It's accidental (It's accidental)

01:28:49   They didn't mean to Accidental (Accidental)

01:28:55   Tech Podcast So Long

01:28:59   I started a new podcast called Playing For Fun with Mike Hurley.

01:29:03   And we talk only about the positive stuff about playing video games.

01:29:08   So it's like two besties playing video games and discussing them.

01:29:12   We don't have any negative talk, no industry talk, no, uh, just,

01:29:17   just very much the fun and the enjoyment that we get from the game and what we liked about

01:29:22   it. And yeah, so that's where we're going. We already had our first episode. It was about

01:29:26   Mario Odyssey and you can check it out on Relay FM.

01:29:32   What is the publication schedule? Because shouldn't we be having the second episode

01:29:35   by now? Yeah, we're recording on Friday, the next episode, but we're going to be doing

01:29:39   it once a month. So that way we each have a month. Oh, well, it's so it's not a huge

01:29:44   - I've been doing that before. - For everybody.

01:29:46   - I got invested in this.

01:29:47   - Well, why?

01:29:47   It's a great thing.

01:29:48   It's easy to invest in because it's not,

01:29:51   it won't bog down your playlist of podcasts

01:29:53   because we need time to play the games all the way enough

01:29:57   to discuss them.

01:29:59   And then that way,

01:30:00   it also doesn't become like a big burden for other people

01:30:04   to add a new podcast to their list.

01:30:07   So it's nice and easy.

01:30:09   And yeah, so it's,

01:30:11   I like it once a month.

01:30:12   It feels good.

01:30:13   up faster than you think because we're already recording again on Friday and I just finished

01:30:17   the game we're going to be talking about.

01:30:19   Well, I don't think you need the time to play the games because you have such a backlog.

01:30:23   You could talk about games that you've played in the past for like a year before you even

01:30:26   got to games that are going now because again it's not like you're talking about current

01:30:29   events or something. You could talk about games you played seven years ago.

01:30:32   Oh, definitely.

01:30:33   I guess it's hard. Maybe Mike hasn't played them then. He's probably not.

01:30:36   Well, that's the thing. It has to be both of us. We've started a nice little list of

01:30:39   things that we would possibly like to games we would like to talk about in the future.

01:30:43   But a lot of them it's one of us has played it or one of us hasn't and then or one of

01:30:48   us has tried it a little bit but didn't get very into it. So we do need the time because

01:30:53   we do have other things to do besides play games all day. You know, even though we are

01:30:58   mostly playing games for fun anyway in our free time because that's what we enjoy. So

01:31:02   we we do have some nice things to fall back on some, you know, things that we've played

01:31:06   in the past just like you said but yeah so John this is a show that you can definitely

01:31:11   never be on because I don't think you could stay positive about a game for an entire podcast.

01:31:16   This description here of like who wrote this is probably Marco. John probably has some

01:31:20   nitpicks about a show focused solely on the good things about games like there's only

01:31:23   been one episode that I've heard but I know you're trying to say like you're not it's

01:31:27   not like you're gonna critique and you're not gonna talk about games that you don't

01:31:29   like but even when talking about the games that you like there are always quirks and

01:31:33   odd things in the games that you will you are briefly momentarily laughing at the game

01:31:37   instead of with it or talking about how you wish this thing was a little bit different.

01:31:40   That happens. It's just in general it's positive. It's not as if you are blind to the quirks

01:31:45   of the game, let's say. You still do talk about that.

01:31:49   Nothing is so perfect.

01:31:50   Yeah, it's true. And as for, like, the reason I'm asking about past games is I wonder how

01:31:56   you're going to navigate, speaking of trying to stay positive, I wonder how you're going

01:31:58   to navigate this because I want to hear you talk about, like, the long dark and half-life

01:32:03   for all sorts of games that I assume Mike has never played.

01:32:05   - Yeah, I definitely want to get him

01:32:06   to play the long dark, I do.

01:32:07   - Right, but if the rule is that both of you have to play it

01:32:11   and one of you quote unquote makes the other one play it,

01:32:13   what if the other one doesn't like it?

01:32:14   I still want to hear you podcast about it, right?

01:32:16   And so then when Mike have to be politely explained,

01:32:18   as so often happens in other shows

01:32:20   where Mike is talking about games with somebody else,

01:32:22   one person might like it more than the other, let's say,

01:32:24   and you have to be able to have that conversation

01:32:26   in a reasonably positive way, and I hope that's what you do.

01:32:28   - Yeah, I think that that's what we're gonna try and do,

01:32:30   or we're just won't if the game is so negative or so disliked by one of the

01:32:35   one of us,

01:32:36   then we probably wouldn't talk about it or we'd put it on the back burner for,

01:32:40   for a later date.

01:32:41   But right now for the shows that we're going to be talking about the first few

01:32:45   episodes or so,

01:32:46   we're going to try and stay mostly positive reminded of when Gruber was raving

01:32:50   about the grand tour to Marco.

01:32:51   It was the best. See, I didn't have three hours to listen to that. So,

01:32:56   yeah, but by the way,

01:32:58   I have an explanation for that for Marco, who is sitting there off to the side pretending

01:33:01   he can't talk. I think it's because he's never seen Top Gear, so he doesn't understand how

01:33:07   much better this same thing could be. So if this is your first viewing of these three

01:33:12   people doing something they like, you're like, "Oh, yeah, whatever." But if you don't realize

01:33:16   that this is the much worse version of a previous thing, maybe—

01:33:20   So bad.

01:33:21   I'm trying to make some excuses for why Grüber likes the Grand Tour as much as he seems to.

01:33:26   It's so bad. Oh, gosh. It's not that bad. I shouldn't say that. It's not so bad. It's

01:33:31   just so bad compared to what it was. It's just the mighty have fallen.

01:33:34   Yeah, that's what I'm saying. He doesn't have a comparison.

01:33:39   Yeah. Oh, makes me sad. The Playing for Fun reminds me of a podcast by a couple of local

01:33:45   guys here in Richmond called Sam and Ross Like Things, and we'll put a link in the show

01:33:49   notes to that as well. It's a similar idea where just every—I think they do it fortnightly,

01:33:55   each of them has to bring something that they like to the show and the rule is no hedging.

01:33:59   And so in this era that's, you know, everyone complaining about everything. Hello. It's

01:34:06   nice to have something like playing for fun or, you know, Sam and Ross like things or

01:34:10   something else where people are more positive.

01:34:12   Yeah, we're trying to keep it light and happy and give people something to smile when they

01:34:17   listen. So bring people up instead of down.

01:34:20   [BEEPING]