261: Seven-Dollar Plastic Garbage


00:00:00   So anyways, what'd you order at Shake Shack?

00:00:01   I'm still jealous.

00:00:02   - So Tiff and I have, you know,

00:00:03   we go on special occasions sometimes to Shake Shack.

00:00:05   Normally our order is a Shackburger each,

00:00:08   which is the cheeseburger.

00:00:11   Like the basic, like one patty cheeseburger.

00:00:14   Which is somewhat small.

00:00:16   So a Shackburger each, we share an order of cheese fries,

00:00:20   and we share a black and white shake.

00:00:22   - Solid.

00:00:23   - Today, we decide, 'cause every time,

00:00:25   when you finish that burger,

00:00:27   because it's such a good burger,

00:00:29   but it's also a relatively small burger.

00:00:31   Every time you order that you think,

00:00:33   "I wonder if I could have gotten away with a second burger."

00:00:35   (laughter)

00:00:37   - You should not be thinking that.

00:00:38   - So today, we decided to splurge,

00:00:40   being that it was Valentine's Day,

00:00:41   this was our special trip to the city just to eat Shake Shack,

00:00:44   and we got three burgers, and we cut the third one in half,

00:00:47   so we each had 1.5 burgers.

00:00:49   - That is actually a very good choice.

00:00:52   - Yeah, and it turned out we were pretty full,

00:00:55   but it was not like a mistake.

00:00:59   - Well, you really, you really, you know,

00:01:01   stretched yourself out a little bit

00:01:03   with all the top four episodes.

00:01:04   Now you're able to handle that much food.

00:01:05   (laughing)

00:01:06   - Yeah, exactly.

00:01:08   - Oh goodness, there is no Shake Shack anywhere near me.

00:01:11   I think the nearest one is in DC,

00:01:12   which is like a two hour drive,

00:01:13   and it makes me so sad because, you know, as with,

00:01:17   what is it, In-N-Out?

00:01:18   Like In-N-Out, I think is very tasty,

00:01:20   but a little bit overrated.

00:01:22   And I think with Shake Shack,

00:01:25   I would say it's less overrated,

00:01:27   But what I'm driving at is that some of the appeal is that it is not approximate.

00:01:33   Is that the word I'm looking for?

00:01:34   It's not near me.

00:01:35   And so because it's not near me, I seek it and yearn for it in a way that I very much

00:01:39   do for In-N-Out, even though I would say In-N-Out is good, whereas Shake Shack is great.

00:01:45   I'm surprised you asked Margot what he got at Shake Shack, because there's like nothing

00:01:50   on that menu.

00:01:52   They expanded it quite a bit over the last couple of years.

00:01:55   Like as they've expanded...

00:01:56   Expanded to what?

00:01:57   There's like burgers, I think there's a chicken sandwich now.

00:02:00   There was always the mushroom, vegetarian burger.

00:02:01   - You have a chicken sandwich?

00:02:02   - I think there's a chicken option now.

00:02:03   - We don't have a chicken sandwich.

00:02:04   - There's hot dogs, there's a lot.

00:02:06   - I know about the hot dog.

00:02:07   They've got like two kinds of burgers, a hot dog,

00:02:10   a bunch of different kinds of shakes,

00:02:11   and fries that are not good.

00:02:12   - And the mushroom burger, don't forget that.

00:02:14   - I said a bunch of different kinds of burgers.

00:02:15   I get the Shaq burger too, 'cause it's like,

00:02:17   that's, you know, there's just no variety.

00:02:19   Which is fine, I like the burger, it's a good burger,

00:02:21   but In-N-Out has better fries.

00:02:23   - I don't think I've had In-N-Out before.

00:02:26   I have had Five Guys, there's those around here,

00:02:28   and I find them incredibly disappointing.

00:02:30   I don't think Five Guys is even in the same league.

00:02:33   Like to me, Five Guys, I'd rather just have like

00:02:35   McDonald's or Burger King or Wendy's.

00:02:37   Like it's at that level.

00:02:38   - No way, you're insane.

00:02:40   Five Guys is so much better than McDonald's or Burger King.

00:02:42   - All right, so hold on.

00:02:43   So Five Guys, if I'm not mistaken,

00:02:44   started either in Virginia in the DC suburbs

00:02:46   or in DC proper, and so I feel some amount of need

00:02:50   to defend Five Guys.

00:02:51   Five Guys to me is the kind of burger you have once a year,

00:02:54   because it is, here's a Simpsons reference for you, John.

00:02:57   - 'Cause it takes you a year to forget how bad it is

00:02:59   and how worth it it isn't?

00:03:01   - Maybe. - It is not bad.

00:03:02   - It's not that it's bad. - It is different

00:03:03   than Shake Shack and Shake Shack is better,

00:03:05   but Five Guys I think is pretty good.

00:03:06   - No, it's not. - Five Guys is good.

00:03:09   So here's the thing, with Five Guys though,

00:03:10   is that it's so unbelievably and unabashedly greasy.

00:03:14   Not to say it's not tasty, but it's so greasy.

00:03:16   Oh, goodness. - I don't think so.

00:03:17   I think Shake Shack is greasier than Five Guys.

00:03:20   - See, I haven't had Five Guys in a while,

00:03:21   so maybe you're right, but the point I'm driving at,

00:03:23   It's like Dr. Nick when he was telling Homer how to get fat and he just like held up a

00:03:27   piece of chicken or something like that to the wall or to a piece of paper or something.

00:03:30   I don't remember the exact reference, but he basically says, "Hey, if it's see-through,

00:03:34   then you can eat it and that's how you're gonna get really fat."

00:03:35   I feel like that's five guys.

00:03:38   And so I feel, even if I only have like, my typical order is a little bacon cheeseburger

00:03:43   and I say that as though I go off and I go again like once a year.

00:03:48   But I feel like after I have my little bacon cheeseburger and fries, I feel like a beached

00:03:53   - I love that it's called the little burger.

00:03:55   I love that they make you--

00:03:57   - Try to shame you into not overeating.

00:03:59   - It's like they make you say the indignity of,

00:04:01   can I have the little burger, please?

00:04:03   Like at Shake Shack, if you say the Shackburger,

00:04:06   the Shackburger is available in single or double patty,

00:04:08   but the default is single,

00:04:09   which is probably what you should get.

00:04:11   Like you don't have to say,

00:04:12   can I please have the smallest burger you have,

00:04:14   even though that's what it is.

00:04:15   - Yeah, so anyway, so the point I'm driving at is,

00:04:18   after I eat one, or after I eat at Five Guys,

00:04:21   I need like six months to a year to recover,

00:04:23   because I feel like a beached whale at first.

00:04:25   - You gotta train yourself up

00:04:26   'cause we get Five Guys here all the time.

00:04:28   I mean, we have Shake Shack and Five Guys both close to us,

00:04:30   so we get them both plenty.

00:04:32   I think what you're thinking of with the grease bomb

00:04:35   is Five Guys fries are just grease bombs

00:04:37   and are of varying quality.

00:04:39   And they give you like,

00:04:40   that's the thing about Five Guys,

00:04:41   they give you, I think it must be in their manual,

00:04:44   when somebody orders fries,

00:04:46   fill up whatever cup size they told you to fill up with fries

00:04:49   but also dump a whole bunch more, which is fine.

00:04:51   - Like a spa-- - Yeah, like place it in a bag

00:04:53   and then pour more fries on top of it

00:04:55   such that the entire bottom of the bag,

00:04:57   so your cup of fries is padded from damage by other fries.

00:05:02   - And I think that's a good corporate policy

00:05:04   because potatoes are cheap, right?

00:05:07   And they've got 'em stacked up in the thing there

00:05:08   and they give you more than you could ever possibly want

00:05:11   and people feel like that's generous,

00:05:12   especially for the ridiculous prices

00:05:14   everybody charges for these hamburgers, right?

00:05:16   - For, you know, it seems like Five Guys fans

00:05:19   rave about their fries a lot, honestly,

00:05:21   I find them absolutely nothing special.

00:05:24   And maybe this is just because the Five Guys nearest us,

00:05:27   maybe it's just a terrible location.

00:05:29   Like maybe it's just a bad Five Guys.

00:05:31   But again, one area where I think Shake Shack

00:05:33   has done very well is that so far I've eaten at

00:05:35   probably five or six distinct Shake Shack locations,

00:05:38   and they are remarkably consistent.

00:05:39   They are all, they've all been consistently good for me.

00:05:43   Everything tastes like exactly the same.

00:05:44   - What are your Shake Shack fries?

00:05:47   What kind are they?

00:05:48   because they've changed them

00:05:48   and it might be location specific.

00:05:50   - We have what used, I guess what used to be the only kind,

00:05:53   which is they almost look like frozen crinkle cut fries.

00:05:55   - Yep, all right, that's what we have too,

00:05:57   but they went to Shoestring for a while near us

00:05:58   and it was grim.

00:05:59   - No, that's bad, that's bad.

00:06:02   - They can be good, but theirs weren't,

00:06:03   theirs were not good, so they changed back.

00:06:05   But I think the crinkle cut fries are not particularly good.

00:06:08   - Oh, I think they're wonderful.

00:06:09   To me, Shake Shack fries, they taste like frozen fries

00:06:14   from your childhood, except done really well.

00:06:17   And also, I don't find them greasy really at all,

00:06:21   like beyond what the minimum required to deep fry something.

00:06:24   But where Five Guys fries I feel like could make

00:06:27   a piece of paper clear by just going near

00:06:29   that piece of paper, Shake Shack fries

00:06:31   really don't seem greasy.

00:06:33   - At least Five Guys has the Cajun option

00:06:35   if you get sick of the regular fries.

00:06:36   - Yeah, but Shake Shack fries are so good

00:06:37   you don't get sick of them.

00:06:38   You just put cheese on top of them.

00:06:40   And the cheese fries are really good.

00:06:42   - No, the cheese is gross, it's like Cheez Whiz.

00:06:44   It's like Casey's Velveeta, it's terrible.

00:06:46   - It's kind of, it's lighter in color

00:06:49   than a slice of American cheese

00:06:50   or like most nacho cheese sauce.

00:06:52   - It's cheese food.

00:06:53   - It's definitely some kind of,

00:06:55   well it is because it melts very well.

00:06:57   But it's a really nice, somewhat mild cheese sauce.

00:07:01   The distribution's always really nice.

00:07:03   And they give you that little wooden stick

00:07:04   to pick up the fries with, it's so good.

00:07:06   - I'm with Marco on this.

00:07:07   However, I do need to also bring up,

00:07:09   for those of us who are from--

00:07:10   - Mr. Velveeta loves the fake cheese surprise.

00:07:12   - Yeah, well, I know, nobody's surprised.

00:07:14   I also need to bring up, for those of you

00:07:16   who live south of the Mason-Dixon,

00:07:18   specifically in or around North Carolina,

00:07:20   there's a chain called Cookout,

00:07:22   wherein you can get a truly heinous amount of food

00:07:26   for a hilariously small amount of money.

00:07:28   And if you've never experienced Cookout,

00:07:31   but have the opportunity, you need to try it.

00:07:32   And Cookout, their burgers taste, guess what,

00:07:36   like you had just cooked them at a Cookout.

00:07:39   Or as some people, where is it that they call

00:07:42   any sort of like picnicky Cookout thing a barbecue,

00:07:44   which is completely bananas?

00:07:45   Is that the Northeast?

00:07:46   - The whole country except for the South.

00:07:48   - Oh, God, that's so ridiculous.

00:07:49   Barbecue is its own thing.

00:07:50   Anyway.

00:07:51   - So honestly, I gotta say, I don't like,

00:07:53   I don't, and I'm using the lowercase version

00:07:56   of the cookout word here.

00:07:57   I don't like cookout burgers most of the time.

00:08:00   Burgers, in my opinion, are best made

00:08:02   on a flat griddle surface, whereas when you put it

00:08:05   on the rack of a grill, especially the way most people,

00:08:09   most people are just amateur barbecue cooks or grill cooks,

00:08:13   whatever word you use for that large metal box

00:08:15   that you put hamburgers and hot dogs in.

00:08:17   For me, my move is always to go for the hot dogs.

00:08:21   Because first of all, they're less filling usually.

00:08:24   So like you can have just one, or you can have two,

00:08:26   depending on how hungry you are.

00:08:27   You can have more room for the side dishes,

00:08:29   which are always better.

00:08:30   - Or one and a half, if you're sharing it.

00:08:33   - Right, thanks.

00:08:34   And hot dogs are pretty much impossible

00:08:38   to screw up that badly.

00:08:40   Whereas burgers on people's grills are always,

00:08:42   Usually they're way overdone.

00:08:44   They're also usually way under seasoned.

00:08:47   And a hot dog, you put it on the grill,

00:08:50   it's already cooked, you just need to make it warm,

00:08:52   and maybe get a little bit of like a split on the skin,

00:08:55   like a little bit of the bubbliness

00:08:56   on the skin from the heat.

00:08:57   And that's it, you put it in a bun,

00:08:58   you put anything or nothing on it and it's delicious,

00:09:01   it totally takes the barbecue cook out of the equation.

00:09:06   Unless they like seriously horribly burn it,

00:09:08   but that's pretty rare and pretty hard to do.

00:09:10   All I'm saying is, if you're ever in a position

00:09:12   where you can go visit a cookout,

00:09:14   get yourself a cookout tray,

00:09:15   I mean, they consider a full quesadilla as a side item.

00:09:19   That's all you need to know.

00:09:21   That's all you need to know.

00:09:22   The whole family, my whole family can eat there

00:09:23   for like under 15 bucks, it's ridiculous.

00:09:25   I love cookout, God, I love cookout.

00:09:28   Anyway, we should probably start the show

00:09:29   lest I talk about food for the entire night.

00:09:32   Do you wanna talk politics?

00:09:33   We can do that for a little while

00:09:34   'cause I'm really fired up.

00:09:35   - I mean, now that we talked

00:09:36   like fancy people's burger chains,

00:09:38   I feel like politics is a much safer choice.

00:09:41   - Yeah, probably.

00:09:41   Can we just ban all guns?

00:09:43   Let's just do that.

00:09:44   Can we all agree on that?

00:09:45   Good, I'm glad we talked.

00:09:46   All right, let's start with some follow-up.

00:09:50   And I don't wanna talk about

00:09:51   any of this battery stuff anymore, so why don't you do it?

00:09:54   - I don't want to either.

00:09:55   Why are we still doing this?

00:09:57   - I don't know.

00:09:58   I don't care. - We're not talking about it.

00:09:59   I just wanted to give some,

00:10:01   we're still getting feedback about it, that much is certain.

00:10:03   - We're not talking about it.

00:10:03   Here, let's talk about it.

00:10:04   - Right, we're still getting feedback about it.

00:10:06   People continue to send us stuff,

00:10:07   And I just wanted to give some representative samples for real live listeners covering the

00:10:11   spectrum of the type of feedback we're getting.

00:10:14   But I didn't practice pronouncing these people's names.

00:10:16   Did I just hear a beer crack?

00:10:17   You sure did.

00:10:18   Did that, did that?

00:10:19   Marco, I love you so much.

00:10:21   I've never loved you more than I love you right now.

00:10:23   Sorry, what were you saying, Jon?

00:10:25   I'm saying I didn't practice how to pronounce these people's names because I didn't think

00:10:27   I'd be doing it, so I'm trying to figure it out.

00:10:28   You don't have to do it.

00:10:29   We can skip this topic.

00:10:30   Yeah, we can skip it.

00:10:31   Just skip it.

00:10:32   No, we're totally doing it.

00:10:33   Just skip it.

00:10:34   We're going to go with Migurdich Carnigian?

00:10:35   No, that's definitely not it.

00:10:37   (laughing)

00:10:40   I need more beers to open, oh my God.

00:10:42   - I think that's it, I think that's close,

00:10:44   you give it a try.

00:10:45   - So, we have some follow up about my task managers.

00:10:47   (laughing)

00:10:48   - Nope, nope, we're doing these,

00:10:49   it's just you just gotta read them,

00:10:51   that's all we have to do, it's not complicated,

00:10:52   there's no discussion required,

00:10:53   you just have to read the feedback.

00:10:55   - Oh God, why are we so talking about the battery stuff?

00:10:57   - I don't know, I don't know.

00:10:58   - We're not talking about it, we're reading feedback.

00:10:59   - That's talking.

00:11:00   - It's three items, there needs to be no discussion about it.

00:11:03   - Can we read in our minds and then not talk about it?

00:11:06   Alright, here we go, here we go, I'm over it, I'm over it, here we go, here we go, we're

00:11:10   gonna speedrun it.

00:11:12   One person said...

00:11:14   Done and done.

00:11:15   - So the reason I picked these three things is because they're representative of the entire

00:11:19   spectrum.

00:11:20   One person saying my battery's great and I have terrible problems, one person saying

00:11:23   that I had slowdowns and I fixed it with a clean install, one person saying I had slowdowns

00:11:27   and I fixed it with a battery thing.

00:11:28   I just wanna put that out there because lots of people think that the various descriptions

00:11:33   of things that might happen that we offer on the show are fictional or hypothetical or completely

00:11:38   one-sided. Every possibility is encountered for by people. That's what we're trying to express in

00:11:42   these shows. You think you know exactly how everybody is handling it. It's always throttling,

00:11:46   it's never throttling, Cleanest All always fixes it, Cleanest All never fixes it,

00:11:49   battery always fixes it, battery never fixes it. It's not true. We're getting real accounts of all

00:11:52   these different occurrences. So this is actually a complicated nuanced issue. And I'm sorry for

00:11:56   all the people who think it is 100%, whatever their pet theory is. I hereby declare this topic

00:12:03   done. Seriously. Permanently done. I understand why you brought it up, John, but I'll embark on

00:12:07   this. We're done. All right. I was talking, and I guess it made it in the show, I never listen to

00:12:12   the show after it's released, I was talking under the influence of a beverage or two about my

00:12:17   photo management Swift console app. And one of the things I'd said is that I wanted to verify that if

00:12:25   I find a name collision, whether or not those two files are the same file. And the reason I made

00:12:31   some of the choices I made is because this app was written just for me, and in my particular

00:12:36   scenario, all of the final versions of the files are stored on my Synology, on my network-attached

00:12:41   storage.

00:12:42   And so what I was saying was, "Hey, I want to MD5 all these files to make sure they're

00:12:45   identical or not, make decisions based on that."

00:12:48   And more than a few people wrote in to say, usually very, very nicely, "You friggin' idiot.

00:12:54   The first thing you do is check the size of the files, and then you worry about MD5ing

00:12:59   which was really annoying because I should have thought of that myself and didn't.

00:13:03   So...

00:13:03   I didn't mention it because I assumed you were doing that, so yes, you should feel shame.

00:13:06   I feel deep shame and I am admitting it publicly.

00:13:10   Honestly, I'm with you, Casey, I would not have thought of that.

00:13:12   Like, yeah, just check the file size.

00:13:14   There's only MD5 that the file sizes match.

00:13:16   I probably wouldn't have thought of that.

00:13:17   No, you totally would have done it.

00:13:19   When you're writing the code, you feel it, you're like, "Wait a second.

00:13:22   Why don't you, like, a ver..."

00:13:23   "Alright, go ahead."

00:13:25   [laughter]

00:13:26   I feel it's impossible. I feel it's impossible to write that code and actually have your fingers typo without going, "Wait a second."

00:13:31   Well, I could tell you it is not impossible because I did it.

00:13:35   But no, all kidding aside, it was a truly--

00:13:38   it was an obvious answer that I just really did not think of. So I appreciate all of you writing in and I am--

00:13:43   I have felt and continued to feel the appropriate amounts of shame. Now, the final follow-up topic,

00:13:48   everyone and their mother also wrote in to tell Marco that they have the one true task management

00:13:56   advice or app or what have you.

00:13:59   Marco, did you try any of them and do you care?

00:14:02   - I tried, I think, three or four

00:14:05   different grocery list apps.

00:14:07   We had lots of recommendations for these.

00:14:10   I didn't try anything to replace things

00:14:12   as my main to-do app, because I've tried enough

00:14:15   of those already and honestly, trying to do apps,

00:14:17   giving them a real shot, is so time-consuming

00:14:19   and cumbersome that I don't want to try a million of them.

00:14:21   I'm very happy with things now, it's fine.

00:14:25   So for the grocery list role, I mentioned that I use Clear,

00:14:29   and I've been using Clear for years, and it's been fine,

00:14:33   but I would like something that has Siri integration

00:14:35   so I can quickly add to my list.

00:14:36   So a bunch of people wrote in and suggested

00:14:39   a lot of different apps that make grocery lists

00:14:42   and do things in a smart way.

00:14:43   I found all of them to be either hideous looking

00:14:48   and/or too complicated.

00:14:51   Some of them tried to be too smart.

00:14:53   A lot of them, I mentioned that one of the reasons

00:14:55   I like using Clear is it makes it very easy for me

00:14:57   to just drag and reorder things to be in the order

00:15:01   in which they are in the store,

00:15:02   because I know my stores really well,

00:15:03   and so I always arrange things to be in an efficient way.

00:15:08   Many apps try to do that for you automatically,

00:15:10   through some kind of, either by learning the way

00:15:12   you order them, or by defining sections,

00:15:15   like okay, produce, and then cereals, and then dairy,

00:15:18   and you can even, some of them are even advanced enough

00:15:20   to know that you can set like, okay, this store,

00:15:24   the aisles are in this order.

00:15:25   First produce, then dairy, like, it's a very,

00:15:29   these apps have a very, very advanced

00:15:32   and complicated solution to this problem,

00:15:35   and I found none of them compelling enough.

00:15:37   I have already food shopped with, I think,

00:15:38   two or three of them, and I found them not compelling.

00:15:42   Either it was cumbersome to use, or it was just,

00:15:44   it took a lot of space on screen,

00:15:46   or they were very cluttered.

00:15:48   I didn't like the way any of them actually flowed in use.

00:15:51   Ultimately, this is a situation where

00:15:54   you could make custom apps that try to be smart

00:15:57   about grocery shopping.

00:15:59   That's too much for me.

00:16:01   I'm fine with Clear.

00:16:02   All I want is Siri entry and maybe sharing for Clear.

00:16:07   That's it.

00:16:08   A basic list that I can drag to reorder myself.

00:16:11   All the intelligent stuff,

00:16:13   it's kinda like my Nest thermostats.

00:16:16   Like when I first got the Nests back forever ago now,

00:16:20   I very soon afterwards turned off

00:16:22   all of their automatic learning features.

00:16:24   And instead I just set a program on the website.

00:16:27   Like you can just enter, like,

00:16:28   "Alright, go to this temperature at this time,

00:16:30   "go to this temperature at this time,

00:16:31   "and stop guessing what to do."

00:16:33   I found that I greatly preferred that

00:16:35   because the intelligent part of it

00:16:37   would often just guess wrong or just get in my way.

00:16:40   There's a lot of places where this is the case

00:16:43   and a lot of different things for a lot of different people.

00:16:45   This is just one of those problem domains,

00:16:47   this grocery list thing, where for me,

00:16:49   the simpler option is not only good enough,

00:16:53   but better on average.

00:16:55   Like, for all of the gains that I got

00:16:59   for the ones that would rearrange themselves intelligently,

00:17:01   there were just as many times where it guessed wrong.

00:17:04   And maybe if I used them for longer periods of time,

00:17:07   they would learn better, and they would get better,

00:17:10   you know, whichever one I used most

00:17:11   would like really learn me and my stores.

00:17:14   but I found the process so cumbersome to use them

00:17:17   and so uncompelling, I don't want to use them for any longer.

00:17:20   I'm fine just using a very simple list app now,

00:17:23   which so far is clear, and I hope the next version of clear,

00:17:26   which I hear is being worked on,

00:17:27   I hope it adds stuff like sharing and Siri.

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00:19:28   (upbeat music)

00:19:32   - Today there has been all sorts of drama

00:19:35   about how you hold the HomePod incorrectly or something.

00:19:38   - Well, your shelf or table holds the HomePod directly.

00:19:41   (laughing)

00:19:42   - Well done.

00:19:43   - All this time, who knew that we were supposed

00:19:45   to be using coasters under our HomePods?

00:19:47   Obviously, we are at fault here.

00:19:49   We should have known that.

00:19:50   - Yeah, who knew?

00:19:51   So, basically, when people place their new HomePods,

00:19:54   which actually, quick aside, did either of you

00:19:56   get a HomePod yet, because I have not.

00:19:59   - So I'll tell you why. (laughing)

00:20:00   - Oh, here we go.

00:20:03   Here we go.

00:20:04   What else did you do in the city today on Valentine's Day?

00:20:06   - Sometimes the UPS man just comes to Marco's house

00:20:09   and has things.

00:20:09   We don't know how it happens.

00:20:11   - Here it is.

00:20:12   - Is there a connection with Marco's actions?

00:20:14   Not conclusive.

00:20:15   - What'd you do, Marco?

00:20:19   - I don't have a HomePod, I will say that.

00:20:21   But I did think if I wanted to try it out,

00:20:24   I was under the impression,

00:20:27   or under the conclusion so far,

00:20:29   that there really was no place in my house

00:20:31   that I could really use one.

00:20:32   And that actually is not correct.

00:20:34   Next to the Echo, I have a Sonos Play One.

00:20:37   Not the new Sonos One that has the built-in Alexa

00:20:40   integration, not that, but the old Sonos Play One

00:20:44   that is just the speaker, just the Sonos speaker.

00:20:46   And I have it there because when, you know,

00:20:49   like two years ago now, I started trying out Sonos

00:20:51   to build an Overcast integration,

00:20:53   and they were kind enough to send me some units

00:20:55   to test with and everything, and so I have a few

00:20:57   of those in the house, and I needed a place to put it,

00:20:59   so I put it next to the Echo.

00:21:02   I hardly ever use the Sonos stuff.

00:21:04   And when I do, I hardly ever play things out of that output.

00:21:07   Usually it's out of the living room output.

00:21:09   So I have a short, squat, white speaker

00:21:14   that is better for music than assistant type things

00:21:18   already sitting next to my Echo.

00:21:19   So I could just remove the Sonos Play One

00:21:22   and put a HomePod there.

00:21:24   And then I can continue using the pair of them

00:21:26   the way I have been using the pair of them so far,

00:21:28   which is I use the Amazon Echo for kitchen timers

00:21:31   and that kind of personal assistant stuff

00:21:33   that the HomePod is maybe not so great at,

00:21:36   and especially timers, come on, why is that, come on.

00:21:39   And then I could theoretically then use the HomePod

00:21:42   for music there.

00:21:43   I haven't done this yet, but if I wanted to try one out,

00:21:46   and eventually, I hope so much that this summer at WBC

00:21:51   we hear of new SiriKit intents

00:21:54   that involve audio playback services.

00:21:56   I really, really hope that. - Amen.

00:21:59   - Honestly, my hopes are not that high.

00:22:01   or rather my confidence is not that high,

00:22:03   I don't think we're gonna actually get that.

00:22:05   I really hope I'm wrong though, I really hope we do.

00:22:08   If we do, then Overcast has something to do on the HomePod

00:22:11   and so I will have to get one for testing

00:22:13   and so that will be a sensible place to put it.

00:22:15   But until that happens, and unless that happens,

00:22:19   I'm still not that compelled to try it.

00:22:22   But if I did put a HomePod there,

00:22:25   that is actually a finished MDF wood piece,

00:22:28   so I don't think I would create a ring,

00:22:30   and if I did create a ring, it's already white,

00:22:32   so it wouldn't really be visible.

00:22:34   - So to back up, the issue that's at hand

00:22:37   is that people are starting to notice

00:22:38   that when you sit your HomePod on some kinds of wood

00:22:42   or maybe treated wood, maybe untreated wood,

00:22:44   to be honest, it doesn't really matter

00:22:46   in the grand scheme of things,

00:22:47   but if you sit your HomePod on wood,

00:22:50   it will more likely than not leave a ring

00:22:53   from the base of the HomePod on the wood.

00:22:55   So I don't see how there's really a lot of argument or discussion about this.

00:23:01   Like, this seems like it's bogus and it's a poor design.

00:23:05   And a lot of people are saying, "No, no, no, no, no.

00:23:08   You should put this on a coaster or a doily or something like that."

00:23:12   - Who's saying that? Who says that?

00:23:14   - Oh, you'd be surprised, Jon.

00:23:16   - I'm lucky.

00:23:17   I must be doing a good job of curating my Twitter followers

00:23:19   because I have not seen a single person say that.

00:23:21   - I got to say, there's a lot of people out there who feel like it's

00:23:25   it's their job to explain Apple to everyone.

00:23:29   And sometimes this is a wonderful service,

00:23:33   and sometimes it's just people basically being

00:23:37   Apple's PR department for them,

00:23:39   and I don't think that's healthy for anybody.

00:23:41   That's not healthy for Apple,

00:23:42   it's not healthy for people trying to make

00:23:44   like a writing or blogging or analysis career,

00:23:48   and it isn't healthy for the audience.

00:23:51   You know, in fact, and I wanted to give a shout out here,

00:23:53   there's a podcast called The Menu Bar

00:23:56   that was, I think, reintroduced,

00:23:59   restarted a few weeks ago.

00:24:02   Spoiler, I'm gonna be the guest on it next week,

00:24:04   and so this is partially, you know, self-promotional.

00:24:08   But I suggest you listen to The Menu Bar.

00:24:10   It is a very, very good angle of Apple critique,

00:24:14   and not just Apple, it actually is a critique

00:24:19   of the entire tech industry.

00:24:21   there's a really fresh take of Apple critique

00:24:24   on the menu bar that I think is worth hearing.

00:24:28   'Cause it isn't just like, oh the keyboard sucks,

00:24:30   oh the HomePod, blah, it's not that.

00:24:33   It's not the kind of stuff,

00:24:34   like if you're tired of me criticizing Apple,

00:24:36   it's not that.

00:24:38   The way I do it, they do it in a much better way,

00:24:40   and a much more interesting and constructive

00:24:44   and thoughtful way.

00:24:45   So I strongly suggest checking out the Menu Bar Podcast.

00:24:48   I'll put a link in the show notes

00:24:49   and I'll have it appear here in the chapter art.

00:24:51   basically the reason that I brought that up is

00:24:52   one of the things they said in a couple of the episodes now

00:24:55   is that they don't feel like they need to basically

00:24:59   be Apple's PR department for them.

00:25:02   Anytime Apple does anything wrong,

00:25:04   fans and sometimes writers,

00:25:07   and mostly honestly just fans,

00:25:08   a certain subset just thinks it's their job

00:25:12   to jump out there and defend Apple

00:25:15   in ways that Apple doesn't need to be defended.

00:25:17   Like, if the HomePod has this problem,

00:25:21   which it certainly appears that it does,

00:25:23   this is absolutely, it's a flaw.

00:25:26   It's simple as that.

00:25:27   It's not gonna end the world.

00:25:29   It's not gonna make the HomePod a flop.

00:25:31   It's not gonna cause some kind of massive recall

00:25:33   or anything.

00:25:34   It's an embarrassing flaw.

00:25:36   We heard for months that the HomePod hardware

00:25:40   has been done for a long time,

00:25:42   and they were just waiting on the software.

00:25:43   The hardware's done.

00:25:44   It's awesome, it's perfect.

00:25:46   And then there's a hardware problem.

00:25:48   There's an actual hardware flaw that shipped.

00:25:50   and not a small one.

00:25:52   It just seems like it's just yet another thing

00:25:56   about this product launch that's just sloppy and rushed

00:26:00   and apparently the hardware wasn't done well enough

00:26:03   or they found this problem and decided it wouldn't matter

00:26:05   and shipped it anyway, kinda like when they knew

00:26:07   that the MacBook keyboards were bad from the first MacBook

00:26:09   but decided to bring them across the whole lineup anyway.

00:26:12   Somewhere, things are falling apart in weird ways.

00:26:16   Flaws are getting shipped that should not get shipped.

00:26:19   That is cause for concern.

00:26:21   Even if this particular flaw you don't think is that bad

00:26:24   or doesn't affect you, we are seeing a lot of

00:26:28   embarrassing flaws that get out the door.

00:26:31   And it seems like either this product was not tested

00:26:35   to the degree that we heard that it was,

00:26:37   and the hardware was not done as recently,

00:26:40   or as far back as we heard it was.

00:26:43   Or, if any of the employees who had these take home units

00:26:46   that we heard about that they were all over campus

00:26:48   all over people's houses, certainly somebody

00:26:51   must have had this issue and must have reported it.

00:26:54   And so either they didn't do enough testing

00:26:56   or they found this issue and decided not only

00:26:59   was it not worth addressing, and by changing

00:27:02   the foot of the HomePod, changing the material,

00:27:05   or adding some kind of pad or something,

00:27:08   not only was it not worth addressing in the hardware,

00:27:10   but it wasn't even worth mentioning anywhere

00:27:13   in the manuals and anything.

00:27:14   Something's wrong there.

00:27:17   But mistakes are getting out that should not get out.

00:27:21   That I think ultimately, big picture, not just the home pod ring of death or whatever,

00:27:27   that is the more concerning thing to me about Apple right now.

00:27:31   And that when these flaws come out, one of the main reactions from people both inside

00:27:37   and out is defensiveness, not actually going back and getting these problems fixed.

00:27:44   One interesting theory I heard is that it's not actually a design problem but a manufacturing

00:27:50   problem and that some manufacturers responsible for making that smushy little ring cheaped

00:27:54   out in a way they thought wouldn't be apparent but ends up being apparent and it could be

00:27:59   that all the Apple people who got the take home things got the good properly manufactured

00:28:04   rings on the bottom so they didn't have this problem but then the mass production ones

00:28:08   like you know some supplier cheaped out.

00:28:10   I mean, not that that's also—it's obviously also Apple's responsibility, but I can think

00:28:14   of all sorts of ways how this can get out.

00:28:18   You know, not because Apple didn't test it thoroughly or didn't pay attention to

00:28:22   it, but simply because it's something that appears for the first time in the mass-produced

00:28:27   models the customers get, which would be a bummer, but it's plausible.

00:28:32   But Apple makes a lot of products that sit on tables and desks.

00:28:35   Why hasn't that happened before?

00:28:37   I know.

00:28:38   This makes me think.

00:28:39   Do you think, I think, I mean, obviously for the HomePod,

00:28:41   we expect them to test this, right?

00:28:42   That's what we're getting at.

00:28:43   It's like, you know this thing is gonna be sitting

00:28:45   on people's furniture all over the place.

00:28:47   Like it's the whole point of this device, right?

00:28:48   But I think when I saw this, I think about,

00:28:50   do you think Apple tests whether the feet

00:28:53   on a MyMac Pro markup furniture?

00:28:55   I'm gonna guess they don't,

00:28:56   because there's not much expectation that the Mac Pro,

00:29:00   my cheese grater, is going to be all over the house

00:29:02   and all sorts of different kinds of furniture.

00:29:04   It's basically gonna be on desks or underneath desks.

00:29:07   Do you think they test whether the little rubber feet

00:29:09   on the bottom of IMAX markup things that they're put on,

00:29:12   I'm also gonna guess that they don't.

00:29:14   Not that they don't test that on all materials,

00:29:15   but that they basically don't test it at all,

00:29:17   because I don't know, it just doesn't seem like,

00:29:20   'cause it's not a product like the HomePod

00:29:21   where they show it literally on like here,

00:29:22   we're gonna put it on your end table or on your whatever.

00:29:26   So that's why I think it's much more relevant

00:29:29   to the HomePod, but it does make me realize

00:29:31   that this blind spot probably extends

00:29:35   to a lot of their products.

00:29:37   everything from the plastic that they make their cords out of to all the different feet

00:29:41   on, probably the feet on laptops they do test in the same way that you would expect them

00:29:45   to test the HomePod.

00:29:46   But I bet they don't test it on Macs, right?

00:29:49   I mean, even if you have a wooden desk, like, I don't know.

00:29:53   Maybe someone should write in and tell us, "Do you have a Mac that sits on a wooden desk

00:29:57   and has marred the surface in some way?"

00:29:59   I think it's plausible because I honestly don't see them testing Macs on a bunch of

00:30:02   different desk services.

00:30:04   Whereas the 100% should have and perhaps did test the HomePod and also the different services.

00:30:09   It's just weird.

00:30:11   And here again I think it's an instance of, arguably an instance of a little bit better

00:30:17   communication up front might have maybe not solved the problem but helped the problem.

00:30:21   Now I still think it's bogus.

00:30:22   I still think it's bogus that if you sit this thing on wood without putting something between

00:30:27   it that it could screw up the wood.

00:30:29   Like that's messed up full stop.

00:30:31   But it certainly would have been nice.

00:30:33   And somebody else made the-- and I don't remember who it was, but I saw it.

00:30:36   But somebody made--

00:30:36   Viti talked about the communication.

00:30:38   Right, well, yeah.

00:30:38   And maybe it was him that said, oh, we knew that the jet black iPhones were

00:30:42   going to scratch.

00:30:42   We knew it up front.

00:30:43   We were OK with it because we knew what we were getting.

00:30:46   What's the line from--

00:30:48   it was Batman Dark Knight, where they say,

00:30:51   if you-- something along the lines of Joker says,

00:30:53   if you expect something, people are totally fine.

00:30:56   It's when something unexpected happens that they lose their minds.

00:30:59   And so you can expect that your brand new, you know, $800 iPhone is going to scratch to kingdom come and that's cool

00:31:04   Because we knew it was gonna happen

00:31:06   But you know you you don't expect this ring to show up and everyone loses their minds and I would too I'd be upset

00:31:11   I don't think it's entirely about expectations though

00:31:13   Like I understand the communication angle, but I think the comparison to the phone just highlights how how different this is, right?

00:31:19   So whether people are aware of it or not

00:31:21   The trade-off that Apple is making with the phone that scratches more and Apple does advertise this but doesn't connect it up as much is

00:31:28   is that they made softer glass in the hopes that it will shatter less often.

00:31:32   So that's a trade-off that they're making.

00:31:34   You can make the glass really, really hard, but then it's more likely to shatter.

00:31:36   If you make it softer, it's more likely to scratch.

00:31:39   That's a trade-off that they have made, because they advertise about how much more durable

00:31:43   and less likely to shatter the iPhone X is, and they also tell you it will scratch more.

00:31:47   And they don't connect the two of them for you, but I'm pretty sure they're connected.

00:31:52   And they warn you upfront.

00:31:53   That's communication, right?

00:31:54   For the ring thing, even if they had warned me, I'd be like, "Oh, thanks for telling me

00:31:58   I shouldn't buy this," because there is no trade-off.

00:32:00   Is the sound better because it makes rings on my furniture?

00:32:03   I don't think it is.

00:32:04   I don't think there's any connection.

00:32:05   Is it made of a magic material that makes it better than a non-marking rubber?

00:32:09   I don't think it is.

00:32:10   Right?

00:32:11   There is no trade-off.

00:32:12   It's just plain simple, something bad about it.

00:32:14   And you could say, if they had warned, I would say, "It's great that I know this while I

00:32:18   wait for my defective unit to be replaced for free, Apple.

00:32:22   for warning me, but I'm not going to take it as, "Oh, they warned me, and so now I think

00:32:26   it's okay."

00:32:27   It's 100% not okay, because as far as I can tell, there is no trade-off.

00:32:32   It's not a design decision, it is a mistake, and it is a mistake that can cause cosmetic

00:32:36   damage to things in your house, and that I feel like is unacceptable.

00:32:39   I don't think Apple will recall these because of it, but honestly, I kind of think they

00:32:45   should if they really want to have a reputation as a company that stands behind its products.

00:32:49   Basically they should say, "We're not going to recall all of them, but if your HomePod

00:32:52   marks up your furniture, send it back to us and we'll send you a new one where the

00:32:55   footage doesn't mark it up."

00:32:56   That's the right thing to do as far as Apple's concerned, or as far as I'm concerned for

00:32:59   Apple to do.

00:33:00   Or they just give everybody a doily or a coaster to put it on.

00:33:04   A fine Corinthian leather coaster.

00:33:06   No, they need to not have things that – I mean, it's not a glass of ice water that's

00:33:12   going to sweat and leave a ring.

00:33:13   Like there's no water.

00:33:14   It's an electronic device.

00:33:16   It shouldn't leave rings on wood furniture, I'm sorry.

00:33:19   - I'm guessing we get no actual response from them on this,

00:33:22   but who knows?

00:33:23   - Well, no, we did get a response

00:33:25   because they put in a new thing.

00:33:27   - It was typical defensiveness.

00:33:28   The response was you're holding it wrong.

00:33:30   - Cleaning and taking care of your HomePod.

00:33:32   - Yeah, the response was you should refinish your table.

00:33:36   - Where to place your home,

00:33:37   it's not unusual for any speaker

00:33:38   with vibration-damping silicone base

00:33:40   to leave mild marks when placed on it.

00:33:41   Is it you think it's not unusual?

00:33:43   I don't know, it seems pretty unusual to me.

00:33:46   I have to think there is a vibration damping material that you can put on the bottom of

00:33:50   a speaker that does not mark wood surfaces.

00:33:54   Right?

00:33:55   I mean, lots of, you know, to put it this way, lots of speakers use the really, really

00:33:58   pointy feet, which would leave like actual holes in your things, you know, but at least

00:34:01   that's obvious when you see the really, really pointy, I don't know.

00:34:03   It just doesn't seem to me that there, that that material is so special that there is

00:34:07   no replacement that would, that would, you know, it would, it would impair the speaker's

00:34:12   sound quality if they used a different kind of rubber.

00:34:15   I don't see that.

00:34:17   And honestly, I think the PR response to this is poor.

00:34:21   Well in their defense, as we record, there's been like an afternoon, an evening worth of

00:34:25   time for there to have a response?

00:34:27   Because this just broke earlier today, did it not?

00:34:30   Yes.

00:34:31   Okay, so I mean, let's give them a little slack.

00:34:33   There may be some sort of response coming.

00:34:34   Yeah, no, we don't know what their reaction is going to be.

00:34:36   I'm just saying that their reaction thus far seems insufficient to me.

00:34:41   And again, it's not like they need to recall them all like defective airbags in cars or

00:34:44   something. If someone has it and it's sitting on a, you know, a piece of

00:34:48   furniture that it doesn't mark, there's no reason to recall that person's thing

00:34:51   or whatever, but if someone has one of these and it leaves a mark on their

00:34:54   furniture, they should be able to say "Apple, take this back and give me my

00:34:59   money back," or, which they can do if they're inside the return window, or

00:35:02   "Apple, take this back and give me one that doesn't leave a ring," and Apple

00:35:05   should do that. I'm not even going so far as to say "Oh, Apple has to pay for the

00:35:08   damages to your furniture," which would also be nice but is a little bit

00:35:10   unfeasible in terms of logistics. But no, it's a mistake. It's probably an honest mistake.

00:35:18   I can imagine how this slipped through, but it's not acceptable. This is not a design

00:35:23   tradeoff like phone screens that scratch a little bit easier in exchange for not shattering

00:35:26   as much.

00:35:27   -Do you have any thoughts on the teardowns? Those were done between last episode and this

00:35:33   one, so we didn't get a chance to talk about them left.

00:35:35   -I looked at a little of them. I don't think anyone was surprised by what was in there,

00:35:38   right?

00:35:39   It's very interesting to me, to see a lot of the way

00:35:42   that it's structured and built.

00:35:44   I think one of the weird surprises for me is how

00:35:49   none of the speakers fire outwards.

00:35:53   Like the woofer fires up and the tweeter is fired down.

00:35:57   Like the whole middle of it, it's covered in cloth

00:35:59   so you kinda get the feeling that it's like one big speaker.

00:36:02   But in fact, the speakers are firing out of the top

00:36:05   and bottom out of little vents,

00:36:07   And there's nothing firing out the sides.

00:36:10   The sides are just solid.

00:36:11   - I thought we had seen some sort of indication

00:36:14   like during WWDC of what this looked like inside,

00:36:16   at least approximately.

00:36:18   So I'm not too terribly surprised by that.

00:36:20   But to be honest, I did not get a chance

00:36:23   to look at the teardowns,

00:36:24   so I don't really know what I'm talking about.

00:36:25   - Oh, also, while we're on the subject of teardowns,

00:36:27   gotta also give massive shout out to the season finale

00:36:31   of this season of Welcome to Macintosh,

00:36:34   the podcast by Mark Bramhill.

00:36:36   It was an interview with the founder of iFixit,

00:36:41   who does these wonderful teardowns,

00:36:43   about repairability and long-term recyclability

00:36:47   of our devices.

00:36:48   It was really good, and really makes you think about things

00:36:51   like e-waste and the way these products are being built

00:36:56   and manufactured and designed, and how there are ways

00:36:59   you can design something for repairability

00:37:02   and then later recyclability, and there are ways

00:37:04   that you can make that harder or impossible.

00:37:07   And, you know, Apple seems very split on this issue.

00:37:11   Like, there's obviously parts of Apple that care deeply

00:37:14   about the environment and about recyclability of things,

00:37:17   but a lot of their hardware designs are very hard

00:37:20   or impossible to recycle some pretty major parts.

00:37:23   They don't necessarily need to be done that way.

00:37:26   So I think it's a very good episode, worth a listen,

00:37:28   and certainly thought-provoking.

00:37:30   (upbeat music)

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00:39:40   (upbeat music)

00:39:43   - All right, any other HomePod thoughts?

00:39:46   John, how do you like yours?

00:39:47   - I was actually thinking of getting one

00:39:49   'cause I thought I had a line to get one at a steep discount

00:39:52   'cause like I said, I have a place to put it

00:39:53   and I'm like, oh, I wanna hear how it sounds

00:39:55   but I'm not able to, I have not been able to secure one

00:39:58   for significantly less than the retail price,

00:40:02   and so I'm still back too well.

00:40:03   I'm not paying $350 for it, so I'm still holding out.

00:40:08   - One thing also, we've had a lot more impressions

00:40:10   and reviews and real world tests and impressions

00:40:13   that have come out.

00:40:14   The opinion on the sound quality is starting

00:40:17   to get a little bit split.

00:40:18   Most people still think it sounds amazing,

00:40:20   but there are some people who have heard them

00:40:22   and come out of it saying, "I actually don't like the sound."

00:40:24   And I think it's interesting, most of the complaints

00:40:27   tend to be either the processing is doing something weird

00:40:31   with the mid-range that doesn't agree with their music

00:40:33   or their tastes, or a common complaint is the bass

00:40:37   is just too prominent.

00:40:39   And it's hard with the HomePod because it does

00:40:43   room calibration and because it is listening

00:40:45   to the bass response and dynamically adjusting it

00:40:48   and things like that, and because it does so much

00:40:51   processing on the audio to try to separate the components

00:40:54   out into different positions in the room and everything.

00:40:57   Because it's so complex like that,

00:40:59   it's really hard to get an idea of what it sounds like,

00:41:04   'cause it could sound like lots of different things.

00:41:07   And whether the sound works for you

00:41:10   can be highly dependent on what the HomePod

00:41:14   has calibrated to for your room,

00:41:16   and also how it's processing things like,

00:41:20   centering part of the mid-range to things like the vocals,

00:41:22   and then putting parts of instruments in the background

00:41:24   and things that are instruments,

00:41:25   and whether that works for certain songs or not.

00:41:28   It's gonna be a really hard thing to get a handle on,

00:41:30   like whether it works for you or not

00:41:33   without actually just trying one,

00:41:34   because it's going to vary so much.

00:41:37   And even trying to test it,

00:41:40   like there was that Reddit post where the guy

00:41:42   did allegedly a controlled test,

00:41:44   although it wasn't that controlled,

00:41:46   and measuring its frequency response and distortion

00:41:49   and things like that.

00:41:50   But that's really hard to test on the HomePod

00:41:52   because it's doing so much processing to the sound,

00:41:55   you really can't get a good handle on

00:41:57   what it will always output because there is no

00:42:00   one frequency response or one distortion rate

00:42:04   that it will always output because it's doing things

00:42:06   to the input sounds based on various intelligence

00:42:10   and heuristics and stuff.

00:42:11   So it's really hard to get a solid idea

00:42:14   on whether it's for you without just listening to it

00:42:17   without trying your music in your house,

00:42:20   in the room that you wanna put it in to see for yourself.

00:42:23   But I do think that not having any tone controls

00:42:28   is probably a mistake because, you know,

00:42:32   the Echo doesn't have any tone controls as far as I know,

00:42:35   but the Echo sounds like garbage,

00:42:36   so it doesn't really matter.

00:42:37   Like, no one's seeking good sound quality out of that,

00:42:39   and Amazon's not selling it as good sound quality.

00:42:42   Sonos has tone controls, I think.

00:42:45   Google, who knows, who cares?

00:42:47   But because Apple is positioning this

00:42:49   as a really good speaker,

00:42:52   and also because they're doing so much

00:42:54   non-standard processing of the audio,

00:42:58   I think they need to offer some kind of basic tone control.

00:43:02   Even if it's as simple as like,

00:43:04   how much bass do you want?

00:43:05   Like that I think might need to be a control,

00:43:08   because a lot of people have reported

00:43:10   that not agreeing with them.

00:43:12   But it's, 'cause it's really hard to design

00:43:14   a speaker that appeals to everybody,

00:43:17   It's even harder when you're doing very heavy

00:43:22   and non-standard things to the audio,

00:43:25   not just replaying it out of transducer.

00:43:29   - That sounds like a feature,

00:43:30   and we talked about this before,

00:43:30   about how the hardware,

00:43:32   it's just a question of adding software updates to it.

00:43:34   That sounds like a feature that could come

00:43:36   in a fairly soon in a software update.

00:43:38   Like you said, even just for base response.

00:43:40   I'm not even saying they're gonna throw,

00:43:41   like give you, I mean, an equalizer,

00:43:44   because almost every other audio thing that Apple sells,

00:43:46   but I think iPhones have it in the music app, don't they?

00:43:49   Well, certainly iTunes does, has an equalizer.

00:43:51   - It's in the settings app, yeah,

00:43:53   but it's only for music played in the music app.

00:43:55   It doesn't apply system-wide.

00:43:56   And also, it isn't a real equalizer.

00:43:58   They only have presets.

00:43:59   It's like the same 10 or 15 presets that--

00:44:02   - Like rock and pop and random, you know.

00:44:04   - Yeah, the same ones that iPods had 10 years ago,

00:44:07   they have not changed,

00:44:08   and there's no actual equalizer for you to just,

00:44:11   if you wanna get in there and define your own thing,

00:44:13   you can't.

00:44:14   If you wanna adjust certain frequencies

00:44:15   for certain things you can't.

00:44:17   I get the feeling most people just probably don't use it.

00:44:19   - Yeah, but anyway, iTunes has the full equalizer,

00:44:21   but then like the HomePod, like you said,

00:44:22   it doesn't need an equalizer, it doesn't need presets,

00:44:24   it just needs one slider for bass and that's it.

00:44:26   - Yeah.

00:44:27   - And that would go a long way towards making it appeal

00:44:30   to a much wider range of people.

00:44:32   And I would say that that slider should go up

00:44:35   as well as down, because some people want more bass

00:44:37   than the HomePod puts out, right?

00:44:38   I mean, that's why Beats headphones are so popular, right?

00:44:42   But beyond that, I think there's not, because of all the dynamic adjustability stuff, there's

00:44:49   probably not that much more control that you can give people because it's like, what are

00:44:53   they even controlling?

00:44:54   Are they controlling the final output or are they controlling the input before the HomePod

00:44:58   decides how it's going to interpret that?

00:45:00   Are they controlling the signal before it goes into the HomePod's processing or are

00:45:03   they just like, you know, the bass is easy.

00:45:06   You can just lower the output to the one big speaker that you know most of the bass frequencies

00:45:10   are sent to.

00:45:11   else I think it gets a little bit tricky.

00:45:14   Agreed.

00:45:15   Anyway, that feels like a no-brainer update to me for a software update that will widen

00:45:23   the appeal of this device.

00:45:24   For what you were talking about, the testing, that blind test that Pogue did.

00:45:30   Oh yeah, that was pretty good too.

00:45:32   Well here's the thing about this test.

00:45:36   mentioned, I think you're talking about this on Twitter, how subjective sound is.

00:45:41   Oh yeah. Some people like lots of bass, some people like not as much, some people

00:45:45   have certain reactions to certain songs that sound a certain way, and it's

00:45:48   very subjective. And then doing any kind of audio sort of blind testing, even

00:45:58   though David Polk said he, well I forget what his wording was, but he

00:46:02   basically said "I tried to volume match them by ear" like because that's a very

00:46:06   important about the thing about sound testing is one thing we know if you make

00:46:09   one speaker slightly louder everyone picks it as the best no matter how bad

00:46:12   it sounds like people are very sensitive to volume right so it's important for

00:46:16   all the speakers to be the same volume but the way you get them all the same

00:46:20   volume is probably not listening to them all and saying yeah I feel like they're

00:46:23   about the same volume and furthermore how do you even adjust the volume on a

00:46:27   thing that is dynamically changing how it outputs sound based on what it

00:46:31   detects about the room like how do you even adjust the home pod volume it's

00:46:35   It's very difficult to do.

00:46:36   And then finally, how many people did he test it?

00:46:38   I put it in front of four people?

00:46:41   I guess you get an article out of that.

00:46:44   Did you put it in front of 400 people?

00:46:46   Even if you did, all you'd be doing is getting a survey of what people think of the HomePod.

00:46:50   That's why I feel like the frequency response thing, at least it gives you a baseline.

00:46:56   Frequency response is like, here's the ideal and here's what it sounds like.

00:46:58   Doesn't mean you're going to like how it sounds, but at least it's something that you can measure.

00:47:01   So if you know that you like speakers that are dead on for the expected frequency response,

00:47:06   you will like the HomePod if it's close to that.

00:47:08   And if you don't like speakers that are like that, you won't like the HomePod.

00:47:10   So let someone read something, and especially with an audio file, probably know, "Am I going

00:47:18   to like the sound of this speaker?"

00:47:19   Because we've done some objective measurements on the speaker, and then you can decide, "Do

00:47:23   you like speakers that have measurements like this, or do you not like them?"

00:47:25   And again, only audio files would know that.

00:47:27   For everybody else, it's just kind of a crapshoot.

00:47:29   buy it, you put it in your house where you're gonna put it, you listen to it and

00:47:32   you either like it or you don't. And if most people are comparing to the Echo, I

00:47:36   can't imagine anyone not liking it because as you said the Echo sounds

00:47:39   terrible because that's not what it's supposed to do. But for comparing it to

00:47:45   Sonos and other things that are high quality, I'm not sure like if someone's

00:47:51   asking me for advice, should I get a Sonos or a HomePod which sounds better?

00:47:54   better? I don't think there's any answer I can give them that is the truth. It's

00:47:59   like, they're both good speakers. I think you'll have to hear each other in the environment

00:48:03   where it's going to be and then return the one you don't like, which is an answer

00:48:06   nobody wants to hear, but that's just the nature of sound, I think.

00:48:09   Oh, absolutely. I mean, this is what I was ranting about on Twitter. First of all, nobody

00:48:14   can really agree on what is a good frequency response. A lot of people think, "Oh, you

00:48:21   You want it to be flat, you don't.

00:48:23   And people can't agree on what the curve should be.

00:48:26   There's a couple of like, you know,

00:48:28   why they know the standards,

00:48:29   like there's like a Harman Kardon one

00:48:30   that a lot of, or like the Harman curve

00:48:33   that a lot of manufacturers use or set as their goal.

00:48:37   But like I find the Harman curve fairly boring

00:48:40   'cause it really is weak on the treble side.

00:48:42   And I like some treble strength

00:48:44   and I find it a little bit withdraws the vocals.

00:48:47   I like some vocals.

00:48:48   And so everyone has different tastes.

00:48:50   I am an audiophile who used to compare products online

00:48:54   by looking at their frequency response graphs.

00:48:56   Like, I made so many headphone purchases

00:48:59   or avoided so many headphones because I looked

00:49:02   at their frequency response graph and thought,

00:49:04   you know what, either, oh, that looks like something

00:49:06   I would like or that looks like another HarmonKurve headphone

00:49:10   and I probably wouldn't like that.

00:49:12   But I have found that frequency response graphs

00:49:17   can almost never really provide useful input

00:49:21   for whether something will sound appealing to you

00:49:24   when you actually have it.

00:49:25   And it's even more, and that's just with headphones.

00:49:27   Headphones are super easy to test,

00:49:29   and their output is very reproducible,

00:49:33   because you don't really have the room to worry about.

00:49:36   Speakers are a nightmare of inconsistency,

00:49:39   because they depend so much on the room,

00:49:42   and the placement of the speakers,

00:49:44   and where you are sitting relative to the speakers,

00:49:46   that it's almost impossible to have any idea

00:49:50   how a speaker will sound unless you actually put it

00:49:53   in the room it's going in and just try it,

00:49:55   which is really inconvenient with speakers

00:49:57   'cause they can be quite large and quite heavy

00:49:58   and a lot of times you just have to buy blind

00:50:00   and just hope it works out.

00:50:02   Fortunately, this kind of speaker is much smaller

00:50:05   and much easier to buy and return if it doesn't work out.

00:50:08   But all this is to say that you can't look

00:50:12   at any measurements or read any reviews

00:50:15   or for God's sake, watch any videos.

00:50:17   Like, a video is completely useless

00:50:20   for letting you hear how a speaker will sound.

00:50:23   Like, I don't know why people keep doing this.

00:50:26   'Cause, you know, going through a different microphone

00:50:27   and then at whatever your speakers are,

00:50:29   it's totally garbage.

00:50:30   The only way to really know how it will sound

00:50:33   and whether you will like it is to get it in your house

00:50:36   and just try it.

00:50:37   And the HomePod, you know,

00:50:39   it seems like people do generally like it.

00:50:41   So it seems like, you know, your chances are good,

00:50:43   this will probably work out for you if you're interested.

00:50:46   But none of these tests are particularly useful

00:50:50   and no frequency response graph or measurements

00:50:53   really are very useful for this product

00:50:55   for so many reasons,

00:50:57   not least of which is the massive processing it does,

00:51:00   but also just these graphs aren't useful

00:51:03   most of the time anyway for any product.

00:51:05   - And to be fair, I think the first round of reviews

00:51:08   struck the right balance,

00:51:09   'cause mostly the things you wanna know

00:51:11   that anyone can tell is like,

00:51:14   how loud does it get without distorting?

00:51:16   'Cause we've all had small speakers

00:51:18   that strain to be heard when you're far away.

00:51:20   And if you crank the volume up to max,

00:51:22   they just start distorting heavily.

00:51:24   I don't think you need instruments to measure that.

00:51:26   You can kind of see like,

00:51:28   your iPhone, for example,

00:51:29   your iPhone at max volume,

00:51:31   it's not going to fill a room with sound.

00:51:32   You don't need any instruments to measure that.

00:51:35   You can tell.

00:51:35   And is it faithfully reproducing the sound

00:51:37   or at max volume,

00:51:39   is it somewhat distorted and certain frequencies?

00:51:41   you don't need to be an autophile to kind of tell, "No, that's not really what this

00:51:44   song sounds like." And at max volume, it's not particularly loud. So, I mean, obviously

00:51:49   that's an extreme, right? But all the HomePod reviews said, "This gets surprisingly loud,

00:51:55   and even at high volumes, it doesn't start fuzzing out and sounding terrible." And overall,

00:52:01   the sound quality is pretty good. And that, I think, is the right balance to strike for this

00:52:06   type of review because if you start saying things beyond that like direct comparison with the sonos

00:52:11   play five or play one or anything like that it's just too subjective to say anything definitive

00:52:18   about until you start getting out the the instruments and you know and then once you get

00:52:21   out the instruments the home pod defies you because you stick an instrument close to it and it thinks

00:52:25   it's next to a wall or something and changes the sound in a weird way and you have no idea what's

00:52:28   going on that was the question with the sheet they put in front of like to be a blind test

00:52:32   was was the home pod detecting that the sheet was there even though it's supposed to be

00:52:35   be acoustically transparent as I think it's a wall and it's trying to bounce sound off

00:52:38   it and doing something weird. Who knows? We have no visibility into the black box that

00:52:41   is the black cylinder that is the HomePod or space gray or white. So anyway, I'm still

00:52:47   interested to try one in my house and see how it sounds but still not interested enough

00:52:51   to plunk down $350.

00:52:53   That's exactly how I feel. I was really hoping that Mr. All I do is spend money would come

00:53:00   through for us on this one.

00:53:01   I thought about it.

00:53:02   You've let us down, John.

00:53:03   He's getting there, give him a couple more weeks.

00:53:05   - Yeah, I mean, probably.

00:53:06   But so like, if I'm honest with myself,

00:53:09   yeah, probably by next week's show.

00:53:10   One more thing to consider though is like,

00:53:13   this is a product that has shipped

00:53:15   without some of its major features.

00:53:17   It just didn't make it in time.

00:53:19   You know, definitely, obviously, it lacks AirPlay 2,

00:53:23   that's the big one, and that also means it lacks

00:53:25   multi-speaker stereo pairing, it lacks multi-room.

00:53:30   And also Siri is greatly lacking in a lot of areas,

00:53:35   some small, some pretty big.

00:53:36   I have a feeling this product is going to grow slowly.

00:53:40   I have a feeling that there's gonna be a lot of people

00:53:43   who are waiting for one of those things to get fixed.

00:53:46   I would caution people, don't buy it today

00:53:51   unless you are okay with the features

00:53:53   and Siri that it has today.

00:53:55   And this is not a statement about Apple,

00:53:58   this is a statement about all tech products.

00:54:00   never buy tech products based on future software

00:54:04   or service promises.

00:54:06   Because so often they either don't deliver

00:54:10   or they deliver really late or incomplete or just crappy.

00:54:14   And so whatever the HomePod,

00:54:16   like if you're on the fence about the HomePod,

00:54:17   you're like well, this one limitation of Siri,

00:54:20   but they'll fix it in a software update.

00:54:23   Assume they won't, assume they never will fix it.

00:54:26   If you still want it, okay, it's safe to buy.

00:54:28   but don't buy it based on the assumption

00:54:31   of some future thing that they will change

00:54:33   or improve or add until that thing is actually delivered.

00:54:38   And that applies to all tech products.

00:54:41   - Yeah, how is your full autopilot working out on your car?

00:54:44   - I never bought full autopilot,

00:54:45   and I would not recommend anybody buy Tesla's full autopilot

00:54:48   until it's actually released and demonstrated.

00:54:50   You can add it later for a small additional charge.

00:54:52   - No, we had this conversation privately a few days ago,

00:54:54   and that's exactly why I brought it up.

00:54:56   Yeah, I, as always, am waffling on the idea of a HomePod.

00:55:00   In so many ways, I like the idea of having a really small

00:55:03   but really, really good sounding, ostensibly, speaker.

00:55:08   But I still am struggling to find

00:55:11   an actual justification for 350 bucks.

00:55:13   If this was 100 bucks,

00:55:14   which I'm not saying it's overpriced necessarily,

00:55:16   I'm just saying if it was $100,

00:55:18   I think I would've bought it and just said,

00:55:19   yeah, the hell with it, I'll give it a shot.

00:55:21   But at $350, that, for me anyway,

00:55:23   is something where I have to weigh the pros and cons.

00:55:25   and it's just, right now I'm with Jon,

00:55:28   it's just not compelling enough for me to spend the money.

00:55:30   So when I have one next week, you can all laugh at me.

00:55:33   And we'll play this clip back.

00:55:34   - So what color are you not getting next week?

00:55:36   - Oh definitely not getting space gray, definitely not.

00:55:40   - See I would have to not get the white

00:55:41   to live next to my Echo.

00:55:43   - So you would get white and I would get black.

00:55:46   Hmm, funny how that is.

00:55:47   - We are sponsored this week by Eero.

00:55:51   Finally, wifi that works.

00:55:53   visit Eero.com and use code ATP at checkout

00:55:55   for free overnight shipping to the US and Canada.

00:55:58   We've tried for years to cover our entire houses

00:56:01   and wifi without any dead zones or slow areas.

00:56:04   And it's really hard because when you only have one router,

00:56:08   there's always just inherently going to be dead zones

00:56:10   'cause of things like walls and real life.

00:56:13   With Eero, they solve this problem

00:56:14   by having a distributed wifi system.

00:56:17   There's multiple routers that you plug in

00:56:19   throughout your house and they share the connection.

00:56:22   and you don't even have to hardwire them.

00:56:24   They wirelessly talk to each other

00:56:26   and they blanket your entire home in fast, reliable wifi.

00:56:30   This is an enterprise-grade system

00:56:33   with enterprise-grade functionality

00:56:34   and speed and reliability,

00:56:36   but not enterprise-grade complexity.

00:56:38   It is super easy to set up.

00:56:40   The new Eero hardware is also incredibly nice.

00:56:43   It just looks really nice.

00:56:44   It's small, it's discreet.

00:56:45   The base station is about the size of an Apple TV or so

00:56:48   and it's nice and white.

00:56:49   And they now have the second generation hardware.

00:56:51   It's nice and fast.

00:56:52   There's triple band radios and all sorts of wonderful

00:56:55   new advanced technology.

00:56:56   And then the kind of accessory satellite base stations,

00:57:00   they now have these Eero Beacons.

00:57:02   This is also a new second generation piece of hardware,

00:57:05   tri-band, twice as fast as its predecessor,

00:57:08   and the beacon is this nice small,

00:57:11   almost like plug in an outlet.

00:57:13   It just sits flush against the outlet,

00:57:15   and that is your little wifi repeater

00:57:17   for different parts of your house.

00:57:19   They're so small, you wouldn't even put them

00:57:21   in a hallway, you wouldn't even notice them.

00:57:23   They're wonderful, and this blankets your house

00:57:25   in fast, reliable coverage.

00:57:27   It's the kind of system that businesses have used

00:57:30   for years to cover their whole businesses,

00:57:32   but that was always too complex for home users.

00:57:34   Eero has made it super easy and super reliable,

00:57:37   and quite affordable, if I may say.

00:57:39   The single router system just doesn't work.

00:57:41   You needed a distributed system, and Eero is by far

00:57:44   the easiest one I've ever seen to set up.

00:57:46   It's wonderful.

00:57:47   So check it out today.

00:57:48   go to ero.com and use promo code ATP at checkout

00:57:52   and you will get free overnight shipping

00:57:54   to the US or Canada.

00:57:56   Thank you so much to Eero for sponsoring our show.

00:57:58   I've been using Waze for a year

00:58:05   and I added it to the topic list a year ago

00:58:08   because I wanted to spend five seconds saying,

00:58:10   you know what, I use Waze and it's awesome.

00:58:12   And John's like, oh I have a lot to say about that,

00:58:13   that has to be a full topic.

00:58:15   And so it was added to the topic list

00:58:16   and it's been floating on the topic list

00:58:18   for a year, right at about spot number four.

00:58:22   And most shows we have three topics.

00:58:25   So it has never gotten into the main topic list.

00:58:28   And we've always been like one topic away

00:58:31   from covering the ways topic.

00:58:32   And I have no idea what Jon wants to say about it.

00:58:34   What I want to say about it would take maybe five minutes.

00:58:38   - Well, let's have you do an opening statement then.

00:58:40   - Let's test that five minute idea.

00:58:42   - Everyone look at the timestamp right now and go.

00:58:47   So, I have used a lot of GPS systems either in cars

00:58:52   or as apps on computers first, laptops and then phones.

00:58:56   Many of them try to be smart

00:58:58   about routing you around traffic.

00:59:01   Or even just the basic routing tries to be smart

00:59:03   in some degree, but many of them try to be smart

00:59:05   like when there's traffic, if they have some kind

00:59:07   of internet connectivity for traffic service,

00:59:10   like they detect traffic and they try to route you around

00:59:12   or they offer you like alternative like hey,

00:59:15   you can go over here and save 10 minutes

00:59:16   and it takes you off some weirdo crazy path

00:59:19   through residential areas or off a cliff or whatever.

00:59:22   Those, I have found, have almost no credibility whatsoever.

00:59:27   Almost every time one of the traffic routing apps

00:59:32   has suggested a route to me to save time,

00:59:34   it almost never does save time,

00:59:36   and it almost always makes me regret having done it

00:59:39   because of some weird place it brings me through,

00:59:42   whether it's really narrow roads or dirt roads

00:59:45   or like going through like, you know,

00:59:47   really like, you know, bad neighborhoods

00:59:50   or residential areas that like,

00:59:52   it's just really weird to just keep going through

00:59:53   a million stop signs in front of people's houses

00:59:55   and stuff like that.

00:59:57   I started going to Long Island a lot

00:59:59   for the beach last summer,

01:00:01   and I started using Waze a lot.

01:00:04   Going to Long Island is, you know,

01:00:05   always a traffic nightmare,

01:00:07   especially when you go on the weekends

01:00:08   when everyone else is going.

01:00:10   And I have since been using Waze, so yeah,

01:00:13   for about a year and I've been using it since then also.

01:00:16   And Waze is so much better than every other

01:00:21   traffic routing system I have ever used by a long shot.

01:00:26   To the point where it has earned my trust.

01:00:29   When Waze tells me to go a certain way, I go that way.

01:00:33   It has not steered me wrong yet.

01:00:35   It is so good and I know that there's,

01:00:38   I know first of all it's owned by Google

01:00:40   and it is constantly sending lots of data to them

01:00:44   and really burns your battery,

01:00:45   so you gotta have it plugged in.

01:00:47   I'm aware of the trade-offs here

01:00:50   for privacy and creepiness for this service,

01:00:53   but it so dramatically is better

01:00:57   than everything else out there in so many ways.

01:01:00   It has earned my trust, and I highly suggest,

01:01:03   if anyone else is okay with giving

01:01:04   a whole bunch of your location data to Google

01:01:06   while you're using Waze,

01:01:07   I strongly suggest using it when you drive somewhere.

01:01:10   And there's lots of other things about it

01:01:12   that a lot of people first heard about it

01:01:14   because of its feature where people can report

01:01:16   where police officers are and it'll alert you,

01:01:19   hey, there's a police officer up ahead,

01:01:21   .5 miles ahead or whatever.

01:01:22   That's honestly, that's a side benefit.

01:01:24   The traffic routing is really where it's at.

01:01:26   That is where Waze kicks so much butt

01:01:30   across everything else.

01:01:31   And it's also incredibly good at time estimates.

01:01:34   Like, I can go on a two hour drive

01:01:37   with lots of traffic in the middle

01:01:40   and whatever time estimate Waze told me

01:01:42   at the beginning of the drive of when I would arrive

01:01:45   on a two hour traffic filled drive,

01:01:47   it's right within like five minutes almost every time.

01:01:49   It's crazy how accurate the time estimates are.

01:01:51   So unlike a lot of the other systems I've used,

01:01:54   you know, you don't sit there and watch the timer count up

01:01:57   and it's just really discouraging.

01:01:59   Like, you know ahead of time roughly

01:02:02   what you're getting into.

01:02:03   And you can even plan drives.

01:02:05   You can say like, I'm going to be driving

01:02:07   from here to here tomorrow morning.

01:02:09   What time should I leave?

01:02:12   And you can scroll through this cool graph

01:02:14   where it'll show you like, well,

01:02:15   if you leave an hour earlier, it'll take less time.

01:02:17   And if you go near this time zone,

01:02:20   it'll get really trafficy,

01:02:22   but then it'll lessen out down here after rush hour.

01:02:24   Like, it's so nice that it is one of the very few things

01:02:28   that I'm very willing to give up a massive amount

01:02:31   my privacy and my data for the incredible benefit

01:02:34   that it gives.

01:02:35   So John, why am I wrong about everything?

01:02:38   - By the way, that was roughly four minutes.

01:02:39   Well done, Seth. - Yes!

01:02:41   - I would love to see what those graphs look like

01:02:44   if you're in the Hamptons and it's Sunday night.

01:02:47   It should be like, just go to sleep.

01:02:49   (laughing)

01:02:51   Try 'em Monday morning.

01:02:52   'Cause it'd be like, if I leave now,

01:02:55   I'll get home in seven hours.

01:02:56   But if I leave five hours from now,

01:02:58   I'll get home in one and a half hours.

01:03:00   So this Waze has been a topic that's so long I have no idea what I think I was going to

01:03:04   say about it.

01:03:05   Of course.

01:03:06   But I do have some things to – do have something – well, one fairly silly but possibly depressing

01:03:12   thing to say about it.

01:03:14   I have Waze on my phone.

01:03:16   At various times during drives or before I knew I was going to take a drive, I'm like

01:03:21   we should use Waze because there might be traffic and I'm interested in alternate

01:03:26   routes.

01:03:27   I tried to use Waze by launching the application, and it has sent me into a sign-up funnel that

01:03:33   I have never made it through.

01:03:35   And I don't remember now what it is that was sending me away, but I think at least three

01:03:40   or four times I was motivated to use Waze.

01:03:43   I started down whatever funnel of sign-up things it had for me, and partway through,

01:03:49   I bailed out because it was too onerous.

01:03:52   Did it want my social security number?

01:03:54   Did it want...

01:03:55   I'm not one of those people like whatever take my email. I'll make a password. I don't care

01:03:59   I'll make an account like it's not like I'm you know shy about making accounts

01:04:02   But there was something about the signup process and this I think is like the first app that has happened to it

01:04:06   It's memorable to me because I have been repeatedly motivated to try the app because people say it's good and yet it keeps repelling me

01:04:13   So I have no idea if it's changed since the last time I've tried it, but whatever it is like I couldn't

01:04:21   get through to the app to use the app because of this

01:04:25   Funnel that it was sending me through and I find that kind of depressing my question for Marco is what are the competitors?

01:04:30   Like you mentioned ways compared to what other things have you tried because I don't honestly I don't even know I know Apple Maps

01:04:35   I know Google Maps and I know ways and that's it. Yes. I've those three those those are the probably the big ones

01:04:39   I've also used the built-in systems for Tesla. The Tesla system is garbage. It has Google map tiles, which is nice

01:04:45   So you can see the good maps but through I probably some weird licensing thing

01:04:50   it doesn't use Google for the directions.

01:04:53   Tesla, I think, has their own service

01:04:55   or licensing something else for the routing.

01:04:57   And so the Google tiles are literally just there

01:05:00   as the image of the map.

01:05:02   And so Tesla has its own system for routing

01:05:05   that has options for dynamic traffic routing

01:05:08   and it is horrible.

01:05:10   I don't recommend anybody use it for that.

01:05:13   Like to the point where I had this giant touchscreen

01:05:16   in my car, which I love all other times.

01:05:18   M will often use to browse around the map

01:05:21   and see what areas around me are full of traffic right now.

01:05:23   If I'm going somewhere local,

01:05:24   I wanna see how it should get there.

01:05:26   The giant Tesla map is awesome for that.

01:05:28   But then I'll have my phone in this little $7

01:05:31   suction cup mount right next to the Tesla screen,

01:05:34   running ways when I'm actually going somewhere

01:05:37   on the highway, because it's so much better.

01:05:40   So yeah, the Tesla system's terrible.

01:05:42   I've also tried the Lexus system,

01:05:44   and two or three generations of the BMW iDrive system,

01:05:49   none of them are very good.

01:05:52   The traffic routing on all of them is pretty poor.

01:05:55   BMW system also has the additional benefit

01:05:57   of being incomprehensible,

01:06:00   like when it's offering you traffic routing options,

01:06:02   in this case, you've seen this,

01:06:03   like it can be pretty awkward trying to figure out

01:06:05   like what button here do I hit to take this route

01:06:07   or decline this route, and then if you decline it,

01:06:09   can you go back later and see it,

01:06:10   or what is it going to do for you?

01:06:11   So it's very confusing and very hard to use.

01:06:16   All the other systems have led me down crazy paths

01:06:20   and that didn't pay off

01:06:22   and made terrible time estimates along the way

01:06:25   and made terrible decisions along the way

01:06:27   where Waze just hasn't.

01:06:29   I think I've had maybe one or two times

01:06:32   where Waze told me to do something

01:06:33   and afterwards I thought maybe that wasn't worth it.

01:06:37   But it's nothing like with the other systems

01:06:38   where you take one of their traffic suggestions

01:06:40   and every time you're like, oh God,

01:06:42   Tesla does not know what speed traffic moves

01:06:44   on side streets in New York City.

01:06:46   Like, that's crazy.

01:06:47   It's that level of bad with the other systems.

01:06:49   And Waze just, again, it has earned my trust.

01:06:53   Like, when Waze tells me to take some direction,

01:06:55   even if I know that it's gonna be indirect,

01:06:58   I know they're telling me for a good reason,

01:07:00   and so I take it, and it works almost every time.

01:07:04   It's shocking how good it is.

01:07:06   - Yeah, well, you have the advantage

01:07:08   that the New York metro area

01:07:09   has incredibly good coverage for Waze information, right?

01:07:13   - Oh yeah, I mean, there's a reason why,

01:07:14   if you get into any Lyft or Uber or even a lot of taxis

01:07:18   and car services, the drivers of almost all of these services

01:07:23   use Waze to route themselves.

01:07:25   You can watch on their phones that they have mounted,

01:07:29   a lot of times they'll have multiple phones,

01:07:30   one of them running the Lyft driver app

01:07:33   and one of them running Waze.

01:07:35   And even if they only have one phone,

01:07:36   they'll be switching between those two apps,

01:07:38   they'll be actually using Waze to route them there

01:07:40   and whatever map Uber or Lyft is telling them to take

01:07:43   as the driver, they're mostly ignoring

01:07:44   because Waze is better.

01:07:46   So yeah, obviously it is obviously

01:07:48   a very data dependent service,

01:07:50   so if you're in an area where there's not a lot

01:07:52   of users of it, it's not gonna be as good

01:07:54   at traffic routing, but it's really popular

01:07:58   and it's been really popular for a long time

01:08:00   and it's really popular among people

01:08:01   who drive a lot like taxi drivers.

01:08:03   So there tends to be a lot of Waze coverage,

01:08:07   pretty much everywhere in my experience.

01:08:10   - I've used the Google app

01:08:12   and it has suggested to me alternate routes.

01:08:14   I don't know if Google, I mean, Google,

01:08:16   if they own ways, I would think they would leverage

01:08:17   some of that information or something,

01:08:18   but I have no idea if the Google's, you know,

01:08:21   so every once in a while I have taken

01:08:23   the suggested alternate route from Google

01:08:25   and so far hasn't stayed in my room,

01:08:26   but they haven't been radically different.

01:08:27   It doesn't like take this major highway

01:08:29   instead of this one because there's an accident.

01:08:30   And I'm like, all right, good, thanks.

01:08:32   But for the most part, I have not entered the world of,

01:08:36   you know, letting go and letting Waze just tell me where to go.

01:08:41   So I have not done any sort of scientific testing on this, but my completely anecdotal

01:08:46   single data point, based on my experience, is that Google does use the same data that

01:08:52   Waze does, but it seems to be a lot less aggressive about routing you through somebody's backyard,

01:08:57   like Marco was talking about.

01:08:58   Like it will keep you to only ever so slightly aggressive changes of route, whereas Waze

01:09:06   will send you through a residential street

01:09:08   and not even think twice about it.

01:09:09   - It also, it's kind of funny when you are doing that,

01:09:11   there's almost always two cars ahead of you

01:09:13   who are following the exact same route

01:09:14   and you can tell like,

01:09:15   "Oh, this is the Waze cluster right here.

01:09:17   "All the Waze users are going through

01:09:18   "this random residential street."

01:09:20   But then we pop onto the highway

01:09:22   magically right in front of a giant traffic jam.

01:09:25   It's like, "Okay, well, I guess that was worth it after all."

01:09:28   - Yeah, it's totally true.

01:09:29   The one thing that really bothers me about Waze

01:09:32   has almost nothing to do with Waze at all.

01:09:34   And at the risk of sounding like a broken record,

01:09:38   and what do I need for that?

01:09:39   A vinyl player, is that right?

01:09:41   Anyway.

01:09:41   - A vinyl turner, I believe it's called.

01:09:42   - A vinyl turner, that's what it is.

01:09:44   At the risk of sounding like a broken record,

01:09:46   one of the things that really bums me out about Waze

01:09:48   is that if I'm in Erin's car

01:09:50   and she has a 2017 XC90, a Volvo XC90 with CarPlay,

01:09:54   if I'm in Erin's car,

01:09:55   and you must run into this in the BMW

01:09:56   if you ever take that for any long journey,

01:09:59   you can't, I know, I know,

01:10:00   but you can't use Waze natively on CarPlay.

01:10:04   I'm not clear, and it may be,

01:10:07   that that's entirely Waze's fault.

01:10:09   I don't think that's the case.

01:10:11   - It's not, the only way that other apps

01:10:15   can integrate with CarPlay is as audio playing apps.

01:10:17   That's it, there's no other APIs for,

01:10:20   and no other integrations that they've done

01:10:22   with partners or anything, it's only audio playback.

01:10:26   - There you go, so it is infuriating

01:10:29   that here is a really, really lovely, perfectly, well, maybe not perfectly, but really well

01:10:35   thought out secondary display for my phone that is right in the center console, right

01:10:42   where you would want to look at it.

01:10:44   And there is nothing that Waze can do about that and Waze can't use it at all.

01:10:49   And it's super duper frustrating.

01:10:51   One of the nice things about Erin's car is that I will often plug in my phone to her

01:10:57   her car and so we are looking at the car played display of my phone on the center display

01:11:03   because it's easy for me as a passenger to reroute her or choose different route or whatever

01:11:07   the case may be on Apple Maps or just do something different, you know, change where we're going

01:11:13   or whatever the case may be.

01:11:15   It's nice as the passenger to be able to do that but to affect the display that she is

01:11:19   looking at.

01:11:20   So I don't have to call out every four seconds, make a right, make a left, make a right, make

01:11:23   a left.

01:11:24   She can just look down and see it for herself.

01:11:26   And that would be amazing with Waze.

01:11:28   And I would kill to be able to have Waze on Aaron's CarPlay display, but because Apple

01:11:35   is the walliest of walled gardens, no dice.

01:11:39   And this is the same problem I have with Spotify on the HomePod.

01:11:42   And it is getting to the point that I am starting to get deeply frustrated about this.

01:11:49   Deeply frustrated enough to go Android?

01:11:51   Eh, let's not go crazy.

01:11:52   But I am getting deeply frustrated by this.

01:11:55   And I don't feel like Apple is really doing themselves any service, particularly in this

01:12:00   context.

01:12:01   I could see how, "Yeah, okay, fine.

01:12:03   Let the HomePod drive, Apple Music sales fine, whatever."

01:12:06   But I still disagree with it, but I can at least understand the perspective.

01:12:09   But in this case, why are you forcing people to use Apple Maps?

01:12:15   And I actually don't have that much of a problem with Apple Maps, and I'll turn to that when

01:12:19   I'm doing any sort of normal half an hour or an hour journey.

01:12:23   But if I'm doing like what you're talking about, Marco, going to the beach or doing

01:12:26   like a two-hour-plus journey, I'm always all the time.

01:12:29   And especially if I'm going to DC, which is a traffic nightmare, I'm going ways for that.

01:12:36   And so it is infuriating that because of hubris, because of obnoxiousness, I don't know what

01:12:44   adjective you want to use here, but for whatever reason, laziness, Apple just does not let

01:12:50   let us use the one app that I think almost everyone universally wants to use.

01:12:54   I think I understand why they, why CarPlay is so limited.

01:12:57   I think they're just very nervous about putting arbitrary third-party iOS user interfaces

01:13:02   up on a screen, even just for display purposes, that they just want to be conservative and

01:13:07   say these are the things that we've decided are not, don't distract drivers, I don't know,

01:13:15   that are distraction free enough that we feel like

01:13:17   we are in the right band of legal exposure.

01:13:22   - Yeah, and there's also like, you know,

01:13:25   it's a difficult problem because there are so many

01:13:28   different laws in different countries

01:13:30   and even different states about what a car screen

01:13:35   can display and how much can it change,

01:13:38   how many items can be like in a list of items

01:13:41   'cause they don't want people like browsing long lists

01:13:43   or they're driving, there's so many regulations and stuff

01:13:46   that it's, and again, when you're dealing with auto safety,

01:13:51   you really have to be very conservative

01:13:53   because literally lives are at stake if you're not.

01:13:56   And so there's lots of regulations

01:13:58   and safety concerns there.

01:13:59   So it makes sense why they don't add much to it,

01:14:03   but the reality then is what people do is,

01:14:06   what I've done with my car is that you just get

01:14:09   a cell phone mount for $7 and you stick it to the car

01:14:12   and then you have your phone screen available to you.

01:14:15   Maybe that's an acceptable compromise

01:14:17   because then they're legally covered,

01:14:20   'cause like, well, we didn't do that.

01:14:22   I wonder if that's necessarily the best idea,

01:14:25   but ultimately it doesn't really matter

01:14:27   whether it's a good idea or not,

01:14:28   that's what everyone's doing.

01:14:30   And across all walks of life, Android and iOS,

01:14:34   that's what everyone does is they wanna use Waze

01:14:36   in their car, which a lot of people do,

01:14:38   they just get a cell phone mount

01:14:40   and stick it to the dashboard or the windshield,

01:14:42   It's not the best setup in the world, but it's fine.

01:14:44   - It'll be increasingly wasteful as large screens in cars

01:14:48   trickles down from the high end to basically every car,

01:14:51   which is slowly but surely happening.

01:14:53   Right now you feel the frustration.

01:14:56   I got a 17 inch LCD in my Tesla

01:14:58   and I got to look at my little phone screen

01:15:00   because I can't display ways on my giant Tesla screen.

01:15:03   And the same thing with all of the high end cars

01:15:05   that have displays in front of the driver

01:15:07   and the instrument cluster and everything like that.

01:15:10   fast-forward 10 15 years where every single car you buy has like two or three giant screens in them and

01:15:16   Still people are clipping things to ventilation

01:15:18   You know ports so they can look at their tiny phone screen and have all the wires dangling all over the place

01:15:25   That that's bad. That's not good

01:15:27   I'm not quite sure what the solution is because I don't think you should just let arbitrary phones display

01:15:32   Whatever they want on the screens in the car, but that may be

01:15:35   Inevitable the only comparison I can think of is one that is not

01:15:39   particularly not a particularly good comparison which is radar detectors

01:15:43   which there are all sorts of laws against as well but I don't think we ever

01:15:47   got to the point where any car manufacturer was brave enough to build

01:15:50   them into the car right so everyone who wants to have a radar detector or a

01:15:54   laser detector or whatever in the days before we had ways to tell us where the

01:15:58   cops are would have a device with a suction cup and a cable snaking down

01:16:03   along their car and it never changed from that like even cars with radar you

01:16:09   I don't know if they have the sensors built in for that.

01:16:10   But self-driving cars that have all sorts of sensors

01:16:12   all over them, I don't think any of those sensors

01:16:14   are dedicated to finding laser or radar speed detection,

01:16:21   or could even be hacked to do so.

01:16:22   And the current solution is internet and crowdsourcing.

01:16:25   That's how we find out.

01:16:26   But I'm hoping the screen issue resolves itself in a better way.

01:16:30   Because unlike speed trap detection stuff,

01:16:35   I think it is possible to have a constructive, useful, non-law-breaking application of better

01:16:47   directions inside our cars.

01:16:49   Most cars have some way to do directions on a map and all that other stuff.

01:16:53   We just want an environment where we can choose the best map for whatever area we live in

01:16:59   and not have to, like the HomePod or all sorts of other devices, not have to pick the hardware

01:17:05   based on what Soher runs on it.

01:17:07   - Yeah, 'cause, and, you know, first of all,

01:17:08   I think this is different than the radar detector example

01:17:10   in the largest way because it's so much more mass market

01:17:15   than radar detectors ever were or will be.

01:17:18   Like, so many more people use cell phone mounts

01:17:21   in their cars than ever use radar detectors, you know?

01:17:24   And because that was always such a kind of edge case

01:17:27   for high strung men, basically.

01:17:30   (laughing)

01:17:32   And so like, you know, but this is like,

01:17:34   this is so mass market, like people like Apple or Tesla

01:17:37   who are like, you know, designing things for cars

01:17:39   where, that don't accommodate the fact

01:17:41   that everyone's gonna just use cell phone mounts

01:17:43   unless they make a better solution

01:17:44   to put any app on a screen.

01:17:47   I feel like that, like that fight has already,

01:17:50   it's already passed them.

01:17:51   Like, the market has already decided

01:17:54   we want arbitrary apps to be able to be displayed

01:17:58   on our phones and our cars.

01:17:59   And that's terrible because it's very unsafe.

01:18:02   Like, you don't want people showing a texting app

01:18:04   or something.

01:18:05   - Or watching YouTube videos or whatever.

01:18:07   - Right, like, there's lots of reasons why that's terrible.

01:18:10   But the reality is, people are doing it,

01:18:12   and people will continue to do it.

01:18:14   Because for very compelling and totally legitimate

01:18:18   and safe uses like Waze or other navigation apps,

01:18:21   that's such a compelling use that people

01:18:23   are just gonna do it anyway.

01:18:24   So they might as well, you know,

01:18:27   the more pragmatic solution here is not to try to,

01:18:30   you know, stop people from doing that

01:18:31   to try to lock people into just your built-in thing

01:18:34   and whatever gated system you run,

01:18:37   but to acknowledge the fact that people are doing this

01:18:40   and will do this and try to give them a better, safer way

01:18:44   to do what they're going to do anyway.

01:18:47   - I'm gonna test the Model 3.

01:18:48   My recollection of the interior is correct.

01:18:50   It actually throws a monkey wrench into it

01:18:51   and it doesn't have vents in the traditional sense

01:18:55   where you can clip in your holder

01:18:56   so you'd have to use a windshield suction cup

01:18:58   and in that case, I don't know how far away

01:18:59   the windshield is.

01:19:01   - Yeah, I don't know if that would work.

01:19:02   So I started out with a vent clip

01:19:04   and moved to a suction cup with a little two inch arm

01:19:08   or four inch arm.

01:19:10   And it's because the suction cup thing,

01:19:13   or the vent thing just kept falling out

01:19:14   as my phone got bigger and heavier.

01:19:16   And as I accelerated harder sometimes.

01:19:19   (laughing)

01:19:21   It would just fall right off.

01:19:22   But it works for me because there's a flat piece of trim

01:19:27   right below the vent.

01:19:29   So I just have it suction cupped vertically to that.

01:19:32   But I'm kinda worried that whenever the next Model S

01:19:36   revision comes out, which is probably, I think,

01:19:38   gonna be in time for my next lease,

01:19:41   I'm a little worried they might change the interior

01:19:43   to be more like the three and not give me a spot

01:19:45   to stick a suction cup.

01:19:46   - Well then you'll have to do it on the windshield

01:19:48   on an even longer arm, 'cause the windshield

01:19:49   is really far away.

01:19:50   - I really don't wanna do that.

01:19:51   I really don't wanna do that.

01:19:52   It puts it too high up for me.

01:19:54   - That's why it reminded me of radar detectors,

01:19:57   even though like you said, it's way more common,

01:19:59   but it's the ugliness of messing up your car's interior

01:20:02   with this extra wart that you have to stick onto it,

01:20:04   plus the associated cord that's attached to the wart.

01:20:07   - Well that's why I resisted it for so long,

01:20:09   like why I just wanted to use the built-in systems

01:20:11   for so long, and then why my first thing was

01:20:14   just the little vent mount, because that was something

01:20:16   I could just keep in the little center console,

01:20:18   and just like, when I wanted to use it, take it out,

01:20:21   take out a lightning cable, and stick it on there

01:20:23   and use it, and then when I was done, I would take it away.

01:20:26   And it took three or four months of that

01:20:28   before I was like, all right, I'm sold on this setup,

01:20:31   I'm in, let me do it right and make it less annoying

01:20:33   and less finicky, and now I just have a permanent

01:20:36   tuction cup stuck right next to my giant touchscreen

01:20:39   of my beautiful car interior with this semi-permanent wire

01:20:42   running down the side because it just has

01:20:45   that much utility.

01:20:46   It's so good and so helpful that that's what,

01:20:50   that I'm willing to tarnish my interior

01:20:53   with this $7 plastic garbage

01:20:56   that's sitting next to my beautiful screen

01:20:58   because it is just that useful to me.

01:21:01   - One thing that could make this slightly less clumsy,

01:21:05   and I've always been a proponent of this,

01:21:07   the idea of rededicating old devices to specific uses.

01:21:12   The tricky part with directions is like,

01:21:14   yeah, but who's gonna pay for a phone

01:21:15   that only lives in their car forever, right?

01:21:18   But some fancy schmancy cars come with their own,

01:21:21   like cell connections that, granted,

01:21:23   have to pay for but you know if you're paying for an internet connection for

01:21:27   like an LTE connection for your car then you could reuse an old iPhone with no

01:21:31   sim in it merely going on the car's Wi-Fi and permanently mount it or an old

01:21:37   iPad for that matter and permanently mount it somewhere in your car and have

01:21:41   it be a single purpose device the only thing this thing does is ever is runs

01:21:44   the Waze application and it's permanently plugged in and I can route

01:21:47   the wire like you're basically designing your own car interior I have a dedicated

01:21:51   I can Bluetooth play music from my phone as well,

01:21:53   but it's nice to have a dedicated thing

01:21:55   that's always in the car, always connected,

01:21:56   always plugged in.

01:21:58   I could see people doing that with directions

01:22:00   if it was possible to get it to work.

01:22:02   - Oh yeah, I honestly considered using

01:22:04   a cellular iPad mini for this purpose,

01:22:07   'cause I feel like that's kind of like

01:22:08   a really good balance, like it doesn't cost much

01:22:10   to have the cell plan on that.

01:22:11   It's a pretty good sized screen, bigger than any phone,

01:22:14   so like if there was a place for that to fit in my interior,

01:22:18   with having a phone, I would have to go to the computer

01:22:20   in my interior without blocking a third of the screen,

01:22:23   I might have done that.

01:22:24   - You've got a Model 3 'cause there's nothing

01:22:25   on that dashboard, plenty of room for another thing.

01:22:28   - So gross.

01:22:29   Anyway, it's funny you bring that up, Jon,

01:22:33   because as we were talking, I was thinking to myself,

01:22:35   you know, Aaron's car does have an LTE connection

01:22:39   that we're not paying for, and you can like cough

01:22:43   near a cell phone store and get a free Android phone.

01:22:47   I could get a free Android phone, install only Waze on it,

01:22:52   turn everything else off, install it in Aaron's car,

01:22:54   and just have that be our car computer.

01:22:57   Because it supports Android Auto as well.

01:22:59   And I am almost sure, even regardless of the fact

01:23:02   that Google now owns Waze, I don't

01:23:04   think they have near as many restrictions, as far as I'm

01:23:06   aware, on Android Auto as Apple does.

01:23:10   And thus, why couldn't I just get the world's crappiest

01:23:14   Android phone?

01:23:15   I guess it's kind of redundant, isn't it?

01:23:16   Anyway--

01:23:17   - This is a good test of Casey's sense of injustice

01:23:21   about cell phone plans.

01:23:22   All right, so the watch, which is very small,

01:23:25   was a great affront because it charged you

01:23:27   however much it charged you.

01:23:28   But the car is very, very big.

01:23:30   So how much does a cell connection for your car cost?

01:23:33   And do you feel it is okay?

01:23:35   - I think it's the same, or it's double, one or the other.

01:23:38   And this is why we haven't paid for a cell.

01:23:40   Like we got our free six gigs,

01:23:42   whatever it was when we bought the car,

01:23:43   and I've never paid for it since,

01:23:45   because I also don't think that's worth the money either.

01:23:48   - But the car is so big.

01:23:50   - Oh my God, I'm not gonna entertain this conversation.

01:23:52   I'm not-- - It's true,

01:23:53   it's 100% true.

01:23:55   - No, it's not true because I'm not paying for it.

01:23:57   - How many watches could fit in the mass of the car?

01:24:00   - What I'm saying is,

01:24:01   I firmly believe that it seems more unjust

01:24:06   because the watch is small than it would for a larger--

01:24:08   - Oh, I'm not debating that.

01:24:10   I completely agree.

01:24:11   - And so the car is the largest device.

01:24:13   how often would you use the car Waze LTE connection

01:24:16   versus how often do you use the watch's LTE connection?

01:24:19   Are you actually using the LTE still?

01:24:22   - Yeah, two to three times a week.

01:24:23   Well, not for the last two months

01:24:25   because I just had a kid and it's been freezing out,

01:24:27   but yes, anytime I go for a run,

01:24:29   I go with only AirPods and my watch.

01:24:31   And so every time I do that,

01:24:33   well, I guess I shouldn't say I am using the LTE connection,

01:24:36   but I want to have the ability to.

01:24:38   Does that make sense?

01:24:39   So like if I break an ankle or something,

01:24:41   I wanna be able to call Aaron and say, "Please come get me."

01:24:43   - Yeah, I would count that as using it.

01:24:45   Like if you're going out without your phone

01:24:47   being connected via LTE, that counts as using it.

01:24:51   - And this is why I'm paying for it.

01:24:52   Like I'm grumbling about, well I grumbled about it.

01:24:54   I didn't bring it up this time, thank you very much.

01:24:56   But I did my grumbling, I moved on with my life.

01:24:59   This is why I do pay for the watch.

01:25:01   And we didn't pay for the car and haven't paid for the car,

01:25:04   or the LTE connection in the car that is,

01:25:06   because I did the math,

01:25:08   it just did a, in a figurative sense, I did the math.

01:25:10   Not even literally arithmetic.

01:25:12   And I thought, you know what, it's very rare that I'm in the car long enough to justify

01:25:15   using its connection.

01:25:16   Even if I am, I can just tether.

01:25:18   There's really no need for me to pay for a connection in the car.

01:25:21   Would it be more convenient if it was free?

01:25:23   Absolutely.

01:25:24   Is it worth, and I think it's either 10 or 20 bucks a month, I can't remember which,

01:25:27   is it worth that money for it?

01:25:28   No, probably not.

01:25:30   But I only brought it up to say it is a solution one could do, is get, even if you're a devout

01:25:35   iOS person, you could get a free Android phone, stick ways on it, hook it up to either tethering

01:25:41   on your existing iPhone or just hook it up to your car

01:25:44   or what have you, use Android Auto and everyone's happy.

01:25:47   I don't recommend it, but you could.

01:25:49   - You know what, I'm totally fine having a $7 piece

01:25:52   of plastic stuck to my dashboard semi-permanently,

01:25:55   but I don't think I would ever put an Android phone there.

01:25:57   - Could you even tell that it's an Android phone

01:26:00   because doesn't the Waze interface look the same?

01:26:02   - I would know.

01:26:03   (laughing)

01:26:05   - Additionally, it's clear that neither of you

01:26:06   have ever owned a radar detector or installed one properly

01:26:09   because on my 300ZX, my Valentine 1 was hardwired into the car.

01:26:14   You could see wires absolutely nowhere.

01:26:16   Yeah, they took it under the trim and stuff like that, right?

01:26:19   And also I had a remote display on the steering column, so the actual radar detector itself...

01:26:24   Okay, so you could see a couple inches of wire going from the radar detector into the headliner,

01:26:29   but the display for the radar detector was mounted on the steering column.

01:26:34   It was a secondary display that you could buy.

01:26:36   And so this way, nothing lit up in the windshield area.

01:26:39   It looked like another part of the dash from afar.

01:26:42   I actually saved myself from a ticket in Virginia

01:26:46   where these are-- well, I hypothetically saved myself

01:26:48   from a ticket in Virginia where these may or may not be legal.

01:26:51   But I haven't used my radar detector in years

01:26:53   because it's just not worth it anymore.

01:26:54   And I don't drive that quick.

01:26:55   I think part of the utility of not having a hard wire

01:26:58   and having the little coiled up phone cord wire

01:27:01   snaking across your thing is so you can hastily

01:27:03   disconnect it and chuck it in your glove box

01:27:04   when you get pulled over.

01:27:06   - All right, let's do some Ask ATP.

01:27:08   Steven McClenning writes,

01:27:09   and this is continuing in our car theme,

01:27:11   "Are advanced safety features found in cars

01:27:13   "comparable across manufacturers?

01:27:14   "Features that use technology like lane departure warning,

01:27:17   "forward collision warning, and blind spot detection

01:27:19   "are offered in BMWs and Hyundai's,"

01:27:21   or Hyundai's, however you're supposed to pronounce it.

01:27:24   "Are they equally as effective,

01:27:25   "or are they much better in more expensive cars?

01:27:27   "How can one compare?"

01:27:28   I don't know the answer to this question,

01:27:30   and I think it would be a really fascinating test.

01:27:32   If only I knew someone who did car videos

01:27:34   time to time. But anyway, I think it's a really interesting question, but I have to imagine that

01:27:40   they're nearly, I think anything that doesn't involve automated driving, that's a whole different

01:27:46   can of worms, but if you're not talking about automated driving, you're just talking about like

01:27:49   you know panic stopping on behalf of the driver or something like that, you know nudging the driver

01:27:54   back into the lane if they're starting to drift, I would assume and imagine that they're not that

01:28:00   different between both luxury and economy marquees.

01:28:04   Would you guys agree with that?

01:28:05   Let's start with Marco.

01:28:07   - I mean, Jon will tell us the real answer here.

01:28:09   I don't actually know.

01:28:11   From what I think, I think these sensors and systems

01:28:15   tend to be sold to multiple car manufacturers.

01:28:20   - That's what I thought too.

01:28:20   - So like, there's a small number of companies

01:28:23   that make these kinds of systems,

01:28:26   and then they sell them to BMW and Mercedes and Audi.

01:28:30   They sell the same thing to multiple people.

01:28:31   So I'm sure some people have their own stuff

01:28:34   or have exclusives deals on some of the things,

01:28:36   but some of the features probably are literally identical

01:28:40   because they're literally using the same modules

01:28:41   and same software.

01:28:42   And some of the stuff, you mentioned lane departure warning,

01:28:46   blind spot detection,

01:28:48   that actually doesn't seem that hard to do.

01:28:50   Like the blind spot detection,

01:28:51   where it just kind of lights up the little warning light

01:28:53   on your side view mirror when somebody's in your blind spot,

01:28:56   that I don't think is very complicated.

01:28:59   that seems pretty reliable and pretty easy to do these days.

01:29:03   So stuff like that, I wouldn't expect a lot of variation

01:29:05   between manufacturers.

01:29:07   Some of the harder things like automatic emergency braking,

01:29:10   like if you're about to hit a wall and it tries to stop,

01:29:13   that kind of thing I would expect to vary a little more.

01:29:16   Obviously, as Casey said, anything that tries to steer

01:29:18   for you, like Tesla's autopilot thing,

01:29:22   I would expect that to vary a lot more

01:29:24   because it's just a more complex problem.

01:29:26   So John, what's the real answer?

01:29:28   I don't know why you're asking me, because in the same way that I have never owned a

01:29:34   car that doesn't have three pedals, unlike everyone else on this podcast, I have never

01:29:37   owned a car with any of these features.

01:29:40   Lane departure, forward collision, blind spot detection, I have never had a car with any

01:29:44   of those features.

01:29:45   So I have no idea how they work.

01:29:46   And honestly, I've been, in the same way with this tech shift, I have been intentionally

01:29:50   avoiding those features because as far as I've been able to tell from reading things

01:29:55   about them and being in other people's cars that have them, they can be super annoying

01:30:02   if they can't be turned off, and if I'm turning them off, then why the hell am I paying extra

01:30:05   to get them?

01:30:06   So I've thus far avoided getting them.

01:30:10   It's not to say that I think they're bad.

01:30:12   I think they are good, especially the things that will break automatically for you if you're

01:30:16   not paying attention and stuff like that.

01:30:18   But the only ones that have even been offered on cars that I've got are the ones that just

01:30:22   use like lane departure, right? And you know, I have the pre-tensioning seat belts and stuff

01:30:27   I have, like things that you know pull the seat belt tighter when you're in an accident,

01:30:31   but that's not quite the same thing as these active systems. As for what my impression of

01:30:36   how they might be on fancy cars versus regular cars, as with all car technology, they come out

01:30:42   first on the expensive cars, and so the first time you're going to see like lane departure,

01:30:48   whatever that was however many decades ago was probably on like a BMW or Mercedes or some fancy car, right?

01:30:53   It was surely a nice class

01:30:54   Yeah

01:30:55   And those those features when they first come out

01:30:58   Are not that great like the very first anti-lock brakes which was also probably on a Mercedes or something like that

01:31:03   Those anti-lock brakes were not that great by the time anti-lock brakes comes down to the Honda Civic

01:31:10   It has been refined many many times over and at the point that you get down to the bottom of the the ranks of cars

01:31:17   anti-lock brakes are more or less the same from a Mercedes S-Class all the way down to a Honda Civic because it becomes commoditized.

01:31:24   That doesn't really answer the question for these things because I think they are not yet commoditized,

01:31:28   especially as Marco pointed out things to steer the car for you.

01:31:30   Not even close to commoditized, but I would say right now

01:31:33   they're bad on the expensive cars and

01:31:35   non-existent on the cheap cars. So I don't like, for features like that, if

01:31:43   You run out and get the expensive car just to get the feature

01:31:45   You're probably getting the worst version of that feature that is ever going to exist

01:31:49   Whereas if you ignore that feature for a couple of decades by the time it trickles down to your $15,000 car

01:31:53   It'll be about the same across the entire line

01:31:56   But across the entire auto industry that is

01:31:58   Self-driving is so much more complicated that I'm not sure if that applies to but things like lane departure and anti-lock brakes and front collision

01:32:05   warnings and even like auto following

01:32:08   What do you call it? Cruise control? Yeah, radar cruise control.

01:32:10   That, I feel like, you know, is filtering down pretty well now.

01:32:14   And maybe it's not entirely the same across the lines. Maybe it's a little bit harsher on the bottom ones, but

01:32:19   it's way better than the very first radar cruise control that came out, you know, in the 80s or whatever on Cadillac or whoever did it first.

01:32:25   I will say that on Erin's car, she has, you know, pretty much all of these features.

01:32:30   And the lean departure, or lean control, whatever, is tremendous. I love it.

01:32:36   It will just gently nudge you back in the lane if you start to drift a little bit or whatever the case may be

01:32:41   And it works really well. I

01:32:43   Really really like it a lot

01:32:45   the

01:32:47   Panic stop. What is it called? I forget the forward collision warning

01:32:50   That definitely does have some false alarms from time to time now. The good news is it's a false alarm

01:32:57   That's where it tries for just a flash to stop when it doesn't need to and I'd rather that than it

01:33:04   just assume, "Oh, I'm sure it's great,"

01:33:06   and then we plow into a wall, you know?

01:33:07   But nevertheless, it does occasionally go, "Wah wah wah,"

01:33:11   and it kind of just instantaneously stands on the brakes

01:33:15   for you and then immediately lets go.

01:33:17   - Oh wow. - And boy,

01:33:19   is that startling.

01:33:20   Oh, my word, is that startling.

01:33:21   Yeah. - That would scare

01:33:22   the crap out of me.

01:33:23   Like, I have the audible alerts,

01:33:25   and my car offers automatic emergency braking,

01:33:29   but I've never had it engage.

01:33:31   - I mean, all in all, I do think it is good

01:33:34   worth it because god forbid I'm not paying attention and something happens, but there

01:33:38   are definitely some false alarms on it and that's kind of frustrating. And that actually

01:33:41   reminds me that on the Grand Cherokee that I briefly borrowed before I got the Julia,

01:33:47   I noticed that every time I was at a stoplight, I think I might have talked about this on

01:33:51   the show, I was at a two-lane stoplight. So say I'm making a left and I was adjacent to

01:33:55   somebody, I would start to make the left and it would go berserk because I thought I was

01:33:59   having a collision with the person next to me, and that was really annoying, but

01:34:03   that's the only instance I can think of where I've seen dramatically different

01:34:07   behavior on safety stuff between different manufacturers. But as

01:34:12   we've all said, I think self-driving is a totally different conversation that has

01:34:16   not yet really been standardized. The next one is mostly from Marco. This is

01:34:21   Jeff Cooney writing, "What is the deal with Leica cameras? I've always loved

01:34:24   their industrial design, particularly the M models, but upon doing some research it

01:34:27   Seems like their features and specs are no better than other cameras from leading companies

01:34:31   like Canon or Sony that cost thousands of dollars less.

01:34:34   What am I missing about these cameras that commands this exorbitant premium?

01:34:37   I don't know anything about Leica cameras other than that they look pretty and that

01:34:39   they're super duper expensive, so I'm actually kind of curious as well.

01:34:42   Marco, what's the story here?

01:34:44   Leica's been around for a very long time and they have some really impressive engineering

01:34:49   and they have built up a really strong reputation for a very long time among high-end, usually

01:34:57   like more artsy or hobbyist photographers,

01:35:00   not necessarily pros, 'cause they don't quite make gear

01:35:03   that would satisfy most like pro needs.

01:35:05   If you're like a wedding photographer or something,

01:35:06   like you know, you're probably not using a Leica

01:35:08   for lots of reasons, but they are very, very expensive.

01:35:12   And some of that you are just paying for the brand.

01:35:18   But they do have a lot of good qualities

01:35:21   that make them compelling to certain people.

01:35:24   Some of it is just like if you have a lot of money

01:35:26   and you want a really cool camera.

01:35:29   You gotta like it.

01:35:30   I've heard them called dentist cameras.

01:35:32   (laughs)

01:35:33   - Wow.

01:35:34   - Yeah.

01:35:35   (laughs)

01:35:36   And I should clarify,

01:35:37   I have very little experience with them.

01:35:38   I rented an M9 for Christmas a few years ago.

01:35:42   I actually made a big blog post

01:35:43   with some simple pictures about it.

01:35:45   And I found what a lot of people find, I think, with them,

01:35:47   is that the raw specs of it were not very competitive,

01:35:52   especially for the price.

01:35:55   Things like the sensor, the noise performance

01:35:58   and the resolution on the sensor

01:36:00   was nowhere near competitive with good sensors

01:36:04   of the same time frame.

01:36:05   Things like the burst rate and features,

01:36:08   like I don't think any of them offer video,

01:36:11   or at least they didn't for a long time.

01:36:13   It seems like you're paying a really high price

01:36:17   for not top of the line technology within them.

01:36:22   But what really impressed me about Leica back then,

01:36:24   and what still impresses me today about them

01:36:26   is two major areas.

01:36:29   Number one, the optics in their lenses are just incredible.

01:36:34   Now when I rented the M9 and wrote this post

01:36:38   back in Christmas of 2012,

01:36:40   the Sony FE series was not really quite there yet.

01:36:44   I think it either wasn't out

01:36:45   or it was just the very first models.

01:36:47   And Canon had not updated a lot of their lenses

01:36:51   the way they have recently.

01:36:52   And so back then in 2012, the Leica M lenses

01:36:56   were some of the best lenses you could get in the industry.

01:37:00   And to get the, like what blew me away

01:37:03   with my rental of it was the sheer optical quality

01:37:07   that this like basic small lens provided.

01:37:12   It was a 35 millimeter F2 prime something,

01:37:17   Summicron something, I don't know.

01:37:20   And it was like a $3,000 lens.

01:37:23   I mean, this is why I rented it.

01:37:25   But it was still like, the optical quality blew me away.

01:37:29   Now today, we have a lot more options

01:37:33   that also provide really good optical quality.

01:37:35   Like basically in the last five years or so,

01:37:38   there's been a huge revolution in lens design,

01:37:42   especially coming out of Sony,

01:37:43   and then later on coming out of Canon.

01:37:46   And unfortunately, Nikon people,

01:37:48   I haven't been following Nikon that closely,

01:37:49   I apologize again, but clearly the massive upgrade

01:37:54   in lens quality and resolution especially,

01:37:58   coming out of Sony and Canon over the last few years

01:38:00   has been astronomical.

01:38:01   And so now I feel like you can get similar optical quality,

01:38:06   if not even maybe better optical quality,

01:38:08   out of lenses from other manufacturers.

01:38:09   But back then you couldn't.

01:38:11   So that was one thing that blew me away,

01:38:13   that still, I'm looking at this blog post I made,

01:38:15   still to this day, it's still really, really good optics

01:38:20   and really good pictures coming out of this.

01:38:22   The second thing that Leica has going for it

01:38:25   a lot of the times is that the way a camera interprets

01:38:29   the data coming off of its sensors is not all the same

01:38:33   between different camera manufacturers.

01:38:35   Every manufacturer and oftentimes even between

01:38:37   different models have different ways of interpreting

01:38:40   the raw sensor data and then they have different ways

01:38:44   apply things like color tone and color balance and contrast and sharpening and things like

01:38:49   that. You know, what you get off the raw sensor is not anywhere close to the final picture

01:38:56   with any camera. iPhone all the way up to, you know, Leica M whatever. Leica's processing

01:39:03   of the photos is just really appealing to me and a lot of people. Like, the way it renders

01:39:07   colors, the way it renders contrast and things like, it just makes really nice pictures without

01:39:14   without a lot of effort, without having to do a lot

01:39:16   of post-processing on them or without having to like

01:39:19   manually tweak a lot of the colors and color balance

01:39:21   and everything else.

01:39:22   It's again, this is another one of those areas

01:39:23   where a lot of it's just personal preference.

01:39:25   Like Tiff does not like the way my Sony cameras

01:39:29   render colors.

01:39:30   She can't get the color balance she wants out of my Sonys.

01:39:34   I can't get the color balance I want out of Canons.

01:39:36   Like it's a personal preference.

01:39:38   And Leica has its own color balancing that it does

01:39:41   that to me is just incredibly appealing.

01:39:44   And that's been one of the only things

01:39:46   that's ever really tempted me to give that another try,

01:39:49   maybe even buy one, is just like the color rendering

01:39:51   is just incredible on them,

01:39:53   and the way it renders tones and everything.

01:39:55   It's just really nice.

01:39:57   So there's areas about photography

01:39:59   that aren't just about the specs.

01:40:01   And it's hard for, especially as I was getting

01:40:03   into this hobby, and as I've developed over time

01:40:06   in this hobby, it's been hard for me to learn that

01:40:09   and to feel that, that to me it was so much all about specs

01:40:13   for so long, but now I'm realizing there's more to it

01:40:17   than that, and so the appeal of Leica,

01:40:19   in part it is yes, like a rich dentist slash hipster thing

01:40:24   because they're cool, but there's reasons

01:40:27   that you would buy it that aren't just because it's cool.

01:40:29   It actually backs that up with really nice photo processing,

01:40:33   really nice tones and colors and everything,

01:40:36   and just stunningly good optics in most of their lenses.

01:40:40   So that being said, there's also a couple other,

01:40:43   they have so many different models now,

01:40:45   it's hard to keep track.

01:40:45   So everything I just said was based on my experience

01:40:47   with the M9, that's been updated lots since then.

01:40:50   There's other full frame rangefinder models.

01:40:54   They have a couple of mirrorless ones.

01:40:57   I don't know if they have interchangeable lens yet.

01:40:58   It's hard to keep track, honestly,

01:40:59   'cause they actually do a fair number of models these days.

01:41:02   They have some that only shoot in black and white.

01:41:03   And I actually got to play with that one,

01:41:05   the black and white only one,

01:41:06   it was some kind of like mirrorless thing,

01:41:08   so it was basically a direct competitor to the Sony RX1.

01:41:11   What blew me away about it was compared to,

01:41:15   at the time, my A7R II that I had,

01:41:18   it was way more responsive.

01:41:20   The viewfinder, it was like the difference

01:41:24   between 15 frames per second and 60 frames per second.

01:41:27   The viewfinder was like looking through a piece of glass,

01:41:30   even though it was electronic, looking through a sensor.

01:41:33   It was just so, such a high refresh rate,

01:41:35   such a high frame rate, it was just precise, fast.

01:41:37   You could snap pictures, just boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

01:41:39   It would not slow down.

01:41:41   It just handled really well.

01:41:43   It was very satisfying to use.

01:41:45   And again, the tones that I saw out of that,

01:41:47   granted this was like literally playing

01:41:48   with a friend's camera at a conference for five minutes,

01:41:50   so I didn't get a lot of use out of it,

01:41:51   but like it was very compelling.

01:41:53   And if at the time I had a need for a fixed lens camera

01:41:57   that you couldn't change lenses on,

01:41:58   where I actually wanted that particular lens,

01:42:01   I would have seriously considered that.

01:42:03   So, yet more qualities that cameras can have

01:42:06   that are not about specs and that are hard to get

01:42:11   in reviews or the review might mention it,

01:42:13   but you might zoom past it because you think it's BS

01:42:15   or you don't think it's a spec or you don't care,

01:42:18   but Leica has earned their reputation for good reasons.

01:42:22   They might not line up with what you want in a camera

01:42:25   and it's up to you whether you think it's worth

01:42:28   their quite high prices, but there are reasons for it.

01:42:32   - That's interesting.

01:42:34   I'm surprised you don't have one.

01:42:35   - I mean, you don't know that I don't have one.

01:42:37   No, I don't have one. (laughs)

01:42:39   - We also need to call attention

01:42:40   to this adorable picture of baby Adam in this post.

01:42:43   My word. - I know, isn't it cute?

01:42:45   - He's so little.

01:42:47   - Thanks for our sponsors this week,

01:42:48   Away, Linode, and Eero, and we'll talk to you next week.

01:42:52   (upbeat music)

01:42:54   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

01:42:56   ♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

01:42:59   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:43:01   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:43:02   Oh it was accidental.

01:43:05   John didn't do any research.

01:43:07   Margo and Casey wouldn't let him.

01:43:09   Because it was accidental.

01:43:12   It was accidental.

01:43:15   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm.

01:43:20   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S.

01:43:29   That's Casey List, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M,

01:43:34   Antimarko Armin, S-I-R-A-C,

01:43:39   USA, Syracuse, it's accidental.

01:43:44   They didn't mean to, accidental.

01:43:49   Tech podcast, so long.

01:43:54   Do we have any more baby updates?

01:43:56   It's mostly fine.

01:43:57   actually the thing that's that's maybe not interesting but the the the thing that we've been fighting with lately is

01:44:02   We moved Declan to a toddler bed or whatever you call it. So basically instead of being in a full-on crib

01:44:09   He's in a bed that he can easily climb out of

01:44:11   And has been for a few months now

01:44:15   I forget exactly how long but it's been a not insignificant insignificant amount of time

01:44:19   But over the last couple of weeks

01:44:22   Particularly, this had started before Michaela,

01:44:25   but it's been particularly egregious the last,

01:44:27   well, few days most especially,

01:44:29   but egregious in general in the last few weeks.

01:44:31   He'll get out of his bed and tell us,

01:44:33   like come to our room or whatever the case may be,

01:44:36   and tell us, "I don't like sleep time,"

01:44:38   or "I'm hungry," or "I'm thirsty," or "My favorite is--"

01:44:42   - These all sound like legitimate complaints.

01:44:43   How are you addressing this?

01:44:45   - I'm hungry in a very, very gentle way.

01:44:48   I'm obviously paraphrasing, but I'm hungry, tough nuggies.

01:44:50   You should've eaten more before.

01:44:51   warned you about this before you came upstairs, you're not getting any more food. "I'm thirsty"

01:44:55   is, here's a little, you know, cup of water, drink it, and then you're done. And then eventually,

01:45:01   actually, you've gotten to the point of leaving him a bottle of water in his room just to get

01:45:04   away from the "I'm thirsty" complaints. You know, the answer is, well, you have a bottle of water

01:45:08   in your room, drink it. But my favorite is, "I don't like rest time," in which case it's like,

01:45:13   well, how do you say to a three-year-old, "Tough shit, this happens every night." Like,

01:45:17   you know, there's no reasoning with them.

01:45:19   - Does he ever come in and say,

01:45:21   "I miss the love that this baby stole from me"?

01:45:23   - No, not yet. - Ooh.

01:45:25   - Not yet. - Dark.

01:45:26   'Cause I feel like that's what he's saying.

01:45:27   - Maybe, maybe it is, and I'm trying to stay cool about it.

01:45:30   - It couldn't be the universal kid thing of,

01:45:33   "I don't want to go to sleep right now"?

01:45:35   - Well, and that's what I've been attributing it to, genuinely.

01:45:38   - Well, you know, he's describing this

01:45:39   as a change in behavior, so I'm saying,

01:45:41   what's changed recently in Declan's life?

01:45:42   - Well, it's gotten worse since Michaela.

01:45:45   I think you're both right, to be honest.

01:45:47   And I think I personally come down more on Marco's side,

01:45:49   but again, I think you're both right.

01:45:51   It started before Michaela,

01:45:52   but got worse in the last week or two.

01:45:54   And my favorite is when he comes out of his room,

01:45:58   Declan, why are you out of your room?

01:46:00   I don't know.

01:46:01   - Adam does that too sometimes,

01:46:05   and it's like you can tell, what do you need?

01:46:07   You can tell the gears start turning at that point

01:46:09   to come up with something.

01:46:10   - Exactly. (laughs)

01:46:13   It's so true.

01:46:14   - I mean, so one issue is he's still napping, right?

01:46:18   - Well, sort of, so.

01:46:20   - Right.

01:46:20   - He has quiet time in his room

01:46:24   where he is allowed to get out of bed

01:46:26   and play quietly or whatever.

01:46:28   And I would say between a third and a half of the days

01:46:30   he will actually sleep for that,

01:46:32   and the other two thirds, or half to two thirds,

01:46:35   he's just sitting there playing in his room or in his bed.

01:46:38   - Yeah, so what we found,

01:46:39   and what I think a couple of our friends have also found,

01:46:41   so it seems to be a thing,

01:46:42   is obviously when you're transitioning out of nap phase,

01:46:46   really, you're getting to the point where most days

01:46:50   he shouldn't be having a nap.

01:46:51   And what we found is that when we were in that phase,

01:46:56   the days that he would nap would be the days

01:46:58   that he would just be impossible to keep in bed.

01:47:01   Because he just wasn't tired enough.

01:47:02   Like, when you start thinking about it that way,

01:47:04   it's like, well, the best thing you can do,

01:47:07   it sounds like you're probably at that phase,

01:47:09   so just stop napping.

01:47:11   and do what you can to make it that he does not nap.

01:47:14   Like, don't take a long car drive, right,

01:47:17   in the mid-afternoon or anything like that.

01:47:20   Don't, like, try not to give him a chance to nap,

01:47:23   try to keep him from doing that

01:47:24   by various activity planning or anything,

01:47:26   because then, when bedtime rolls around,

01:47:29   he will be tired enough that he will just go to bed

01:47:33   and not give you as hard of a time about it

01:47:35   because he'll just be so tired.

01:47:37   That's what we found.

01:47:38   - You have to think about moving his bedtime, too,

01:47:40   because I know you have a routine,

01:47:42   you're like, "Great, we have a child,

01:47:43   "and the child always goes to bed at X o'clock."

01:47:45   That is going to change.

01:47:47   And it's not gonna change on its own.

01:47:49   You have to consciously think,

01:47:50   "Oh, he's not six months anymore now, he's three.

01:47:53   "Should his bedtime be different?"

01:47:55   And repeat until they're five and 10 and 13.

01:47:58   You can't, as much as I love to do it,

01:48:00   I love the naps, I love being able to put the kids to bed

01:48:02   at 7.30, but that sadly does not last.

01:48:05   - Yeah, I don't know.

01:48:06   I mean, it's fine.

01:48:07   In the grand scheme of things,

01:48:08   things could be so much worse.

01:48:09   Until they encroach on every waking hour of your actual life.

01:48:12   It's like, "Wait a second. If by the time the kids are in bed, it's time for me to go to bed, when is my time?"

01:48:17   And you're like, "That's right, it's gone, it's gone, isn't it? No naps."

01:48:20   And they go to bed at the same time as you.

01:48:22   [laughs]

01:48:23   That I don't even want to know.

01:48:24   So welcome to your future.

01:48:25   (beeping)

01:48:28   [