257: Smell the Wind


00:00:00   So we should probably catch everyone up in case they weren't aware.

00:00:03   Uh, Aaron did in fact have our baby early Thursday morning.

00:00:08   So for those of you who may have heard the last episode, you may recall that that was,

00:00:15   uh, that was recorded Tuesday night and I didn't really want to get into it during the show.

00:00:20   But Aaron, Aaron was actually starting to have contractions during the show.

00:00:25   Like it was shortly before the show that we looked at each other and said,

00:00:28   "Oop, yeah, this is probably it." So we went into the OB the following morning, Wednesday morning,

00:00:34   and the OB had said, "Oh, she'll definitely, Aaron, will definitely be done by evening time."

00:00:42   And as we got closer and closer to evening time, "Oh, it'll be definitely done by midnight." And

00:00:48   as we got closer and closer to midnight, "Oh, it'll be definitely done any second now." And

00:00:51   sure enough, a little after three in the morning, Aaron blessed our family with our little girl.

00:00:57   whose name is Michaela Charlotte, and we are overjoyed and very tired, which is exactly the

00:01:06   normal response for having a newborn. Oh, and I started to say earlier, and then I got myself

00:01:11   sidetracked, we did what appears to be the inverse of the Syracuse family approach because our first

00:01:16   child was, or at least my hazy memory of Declan, was reasonably easy in the grand scheme of things.

00:01:24   Like any child is a royal pain in the tuchus, but nonetheless

00:01:27   Declan was reasonably easy. Whereas

00:01:31   Michaela is

00:01:34   Starting out anyway

00:01:36   Considerably more challenging and it may just be that my memory which is already bad in general

00:01:40   Has just blocked the new baby phase from my mind

00:01:43   But oh boy, this is something else and and if I recall correctly John you said that that your son

00:01:49   Was what did you call him? I was asking Aaron this early like a screamer pillar or something like that

00:01:53   Screaming Pillow, yeah, from The Simpsons.

00:01:55   It was one of his many delightful names.

00:01:57   He basically screamed for the first several months of his life, continuously.

00:02:01   [laughs]

00:02:03   And yet, you somehow decided to have a second child, which...

00:02:06   Yeah, you gotta roll the dice, you know?

00:02:08   Like, the only thing that kept us...

00:02:10   Dappel was like, "What if the next one is worse?"

00:02:12   And we're like, "Is that even possible? Is it possible that what could be worse?"

00:02:15   Like, literal fire coming from the baby?

00:02:17   I don't know what could be...

00:02:19   What could be worse? Yeah, I don't know.

00:02:21   was inconsolable. Nothing consoled him in any way. You know, rocking, walking, burping,

00:02:29   feeding. He refused to eat for a really long time.

00:02:31   Oh, even feeding? Oh, okay, so you're worse off than we are. Because the one thing that we do

00:02:37   have going for us is that if Michaela's attached to Aaron, everyone is happy. Well, except Aaron,

00:02:42   but everyone is happy. And I say except Aaron only because, as it turns out, which I didn't know

00:02:47   until we had a kid. Breastfeeding? Not fun. Not easy. Who knew? And so Aaron is extremely

00:02:55   happy to be able to do it, don't get me wrong, but it is not an intensely pleasurable experience

00:03:01   for Aaron to have this leech latched onto her all the time.

00:03:05   **Matt Stauffer** I mean, it can be depending, but yeah, there's

00:03:08   definitely a learning curve that most people don't think about. And one of the extra difficulties

00:03:12   with Alex was because it was our first, we didn't have the experience to know that this is a thing

00:03:17   we could successfully do. Like, you know, Aaron had it with Jack and she knows, like,

00:03:21   I'm capable of this. Like it's a pain and it's annoying and lots of things can go wrong and,

00:03:25   you know, be a bother and be painful and things got a little bit out of her, but she can do it.

00:03:30   But Alex was like, look, you know, can we accomplish this? Why does our child refuse to

00:03:36   feed? Why is he just screaming at me? Like, surely this child is hungry, but no, it's only hungry for

00:03:42   screaming. Oh, he's hungry for more screaming.

00:03:44   Oh yeah. So it wasn't, yeah, Michaela isn't as bad as Alex in that regard.

00:03:51   This is a lot of complaining, which is truly and utterly unfair.

00:03:55   You just hit me at a tired moment.

00:03:57   The reality of the situation is, and I'm being serious,

00:03:59   is that if I take a step back,

00:04:01   we have been lucky enough through the miracle of science,

00:04:04   and I say that with no hyperbole intended,

00:04:06   we have been lucky enough through the miracle of science to have two kids that

00:04:09   that nature by itself wouldn't let us have.

00:04:12   And that is really tremendous,

00:04:14   and we're deeply, deeply, deeply lucky for it.

00:04:17   Erin's labor was difficult.

00:04:20   Every labor is difficult.

00:04:21   I'm not saying hers is more or less difficult

00:04:23   than any other.

00:04:25   - Well, regardless, big congratulations, Casey.

00:04:28   You guys went through a lot on both fronts with both kids,

00:04:31   and we're really proud of you, and big congratulations.

00:04:34   - It's all smooth sailing from here.

00:04:36   (laughing)

00:04:37   - Totally, that's exactly how it works.

00:04:38   (electronic music)

00:04:40   So, you have a newborn, everything is in chaos,

00:04:43   you haven't slept at all,

00:04:45   you got a self-employment gig set up yet?

00:04:47   - Yeah, totally. (laughing)

00:04:49   Lying right up.

00:04:50   No, I do not, I have not even thought about it.

00:04:53   Although, because this is what I need to do with my time,

00:04:57   I'm working on a Mac app.

00:04:59   What sort of, kind of.

00:05:02   That was the correct reaction.

00:05:03   - Nursing clock pro.

00:05:04   - Yes, that's it, that's exactly it.

00:05:06   No, um-- - Overcast for Mac.

00:05:08   - Overcast for Mac, and by the way, I'm billing you tomorrow.

00:05:11   (laughing)

00:05:12   No, I, God, I'm trying to think of the short,

00:05:15   short version of this story.

00:05:16   So I have a very esoteric and very weird

00:05:21   photo management workflow that works for me.

00:05:26   I understand that it's complete garbage

00:05:29   to everyone else on the planet, but it works for me.

00:05:33   And the problem with that workflow is it's based

00:05:36   bunch of Python that I basically understand but can't really create anymore. Like, I can—I'm

00:05:43   not very good at writing Python. I've done a smattering in my day, but very, very little.

00:05:47   And these scripts came from Dr. Drang. I've tweaked them ever so slightly in order to do

00:05:53   what I need, but they're almost entirely what Drang had written. So anyway, so Apple, in their

00:05:59   infinite wisdom, has decided to release new images—new image codecs or formats, whatever you

00:06:04   you want to call it, with HEVC and HEIC, HAFE, whatever, I don't even care, whatever, I'm

00:06:09   tired.

00:06:10   Point is, there's new things, and those have ruined my workflow.

00:06:13   And so rather than trying to hack apart Drang script, which is great, like I'm not trying

00:06:18   to say script is bad, it's just a KC problem, I don't really understand Python very well.

00:06:24   Although I do approve of using whitespace as delimiters.

00:06:27   Don't at me.

00:06:28   But anyway, the point is, I've decided to write a Swift command line app in order to

00:06:33   do basically the same thing, which is to say look at a folder full of images and videos,

00:06:38   figure out what the date was that those images or videos were taken, which could be as simple

00:06:45   as the file creation date but oftentimes is not, rename them to a given format.

00:06:50   So in my case I prefer, and this is one of the few cases where I like 8601, so my preferred

00:06:56   file format or my preferred file naming is 2017 or 2018 - 01 - 17 space hour hour - minute minute -

00:07:08   second second that's just the one I like if you don't like it that's fine this one is mine

00:07:11   that's a reference John anyway point is the the script that Drang wrote does all of this for me

00:07:19   but I decided I don't I don't like the way I hacked it up to work with live photos and trying

00:07:24   to figure out what's the associated movie with a particular image, and so I'm just rewriting it as

00:07:30   a Swift command line app that'll do all this for me. And in the span of just today, I think I started

00:07:35   it, I feel like I'm about a third of the way through, which means I'm actually about a tenth

00:07:39   of the way through. But that's better than nothing, and that's exciting. And I will probably either

00:07:43   never release this or at most open source it so other people can laugh at how hacky this is,

00:07:48   because I'm not writing it for a job, I'm writing it for me and #YOLO, but that's what I've been

00:07:53   been doing on and off when I've had a moment to breathe, when I've not been entertaining

00:07:56   Declan, or keeping the Screamer Pillar from screaming.

00:07:59   So I'm trying to steal my Screamer Pillar. You've got to come up with a new name. You

00:08:03   had your pre-birth name with Sprig and Sprout. You've got to have a post-birth name.

00:08:06   Yeah, yeah. I thought Michaela was good enough. Seems not. Anyway, what else is in follow-up?

00:08:11   What do we got here? So there's another Black Desktop Mac, I hear.

00:08:15   Yeah, this is one I did not know about. Why? Because it's Europe only! So many things are

00:08:21   Europe only. I like this model of Mac. This is like the, I don't know what you would call

00:08:26   this case. It's the sort of iMac looking all in one, but the nice looking one. They made

00:08:31   a lot of Macs in this particular form back here, but apparently one of them came in black

00:08:34   in Europe. So more cool stuff. I was also trying to find, I looked for the link for

00:08:39   the second thing. There was a story that went around a while ago about how Europe or some

00:08:46   European countries or some sort of international standards body had some requirement about

00:08:50   the specific color of computers.

00:08:53   I think the story was like,

00:08:54   here's why all computers used to be beige.

00:08:56   It's because of this like ISO specification.

00:08:58   - Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:08:59   - And I couldn't for the life of me find the link.

00:09:01   So if anyone knows it, send it to us

00:09:03   and we'll put it in the show notes.

00:09:04   But anyway, the important part of that story

00:09:06   other than the silly sensational headline

00:09:08   was that to comply with this,

00:09:11   apparently Apple had to create a bunch of PowerBooks

00:09:14   whose keyboards were grayish and it looked just awful

00:09:17   because PowerBooks were all kind of like dark gray or black

00:09:20   and they had keyboards that either matched or complemented that, except for they would

00:09:24   make them for, I think it was just Germany, but maybe it was all European countries, they'd

00:09:27   make a nice sleek black PowerBook and put it like a light gray keyboard on it and it

00:09:31   was gross.

00:09:33   So kudos for Europe for having this black PowerMac 5500 and whatever the opposite of

00:09:39   kudos is for making Apple make their computers ugly for you.

00:09:43   >> Cheers and cheers, John.

00:09:45   Cheers and cheers.

00:09:46   >> Yeah, what's the opposite of kudos though?

00:09:47   Cheers and cheers works.

00:09:48   Kudos and dookies?

00:09:49   - Dukies is Kudos' background, right?

00:09:53   - All right, moving on.

00:09:53   So tell me about the Peacalk about screen

00:09:56   and how it is as quoting,

00:09:58   and I'm now quoting from the show notes,

00:10:00   "The reffer of fans."

00:10:01   - Yeah, so Marco's mighty iMac Pro

00:10:05   was recently purchased by James Thompson,

00:10:06   creator of Peacalk, the--

00:10:08   - An iMac Pro configured like mine,

00:10:10   not like my actual one.

00:10:11   I didn't sell mine to him.

00:10:13   - Yes, yes.

00:10:14   And Peacalk has been around for many, many years.

00:10:16   It's a calculator application

00:10:17   it was able to run his fans at full blast. How can a calculator run iMac Pro's fans at full blast?

00:10:25   Well, if you haven't been keeping up with Peacalk, and you really should be, there is an interesting

00:10:32   feature hidden in the about screen that starts to make more sense when you understand that it's

00:10:37   revving the fans. So I don't want to spoil it for you, but it does other things, as they say on Seinfeld.

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00:12:50   - So this is an older story about people announcing

00:12:56   ARM's Windows PCs as kind of Microsoft's second run

00:13:00   at selling you ARM hardware that runs Windows.

00:13:03   Remember, what was it, Windows RT was the first one?

00:13:06   They were gonna sell like x86 versions of,

00:13:08   I think it was their Surface stuff or whatever,

00:13:10   and also ARM versions with a special version of Windows

00:13:12   that runs on it.

00:13:13   They did, they actually did it.

00:13:14   Yeah, no one bought them, but they did it.

00:13:16   - And it just wasn't that popular.

00:13:18   A lot of people speculated because it's like,

00:13:20   well, it's all well and good and it runs Windows

00:13:21   and it has some advantages, but it was a while ago.

00:13:25   ARM PCs weren't as powerful as they are now.

00:13:28   And the main thing is like, well, I can't run Office.

00:13:31   Or, you know, not in Office,

00:13:32   but I think they ported Office.

00:13:33   But like all the software that runs on Windows,

00:13:37   unless the developers recompile for ARM, I can't run it.

00:13:40   So their second run at this is Clean Air

00:13:42   without a special, you know, without it being like Windows, you know, suffix type thing,

00:13:48   it's just Windows 10 for ARM.

00:13:50   They have an emulator that will run x86 software so everyone doesn't have to port.

00:13:56   Like they're doing a better job of like, you know, supporting a second architecture.

00:13:59   It still remains to be seen whether it will succeed for them because I really think, you

00:14:04   know, I don't know.

00:14:05   The only examples I have that I'm knowledgeable about are the many transitions Apple has made

00:14:10   to different CPU architectures,

00:14:12   and in all cases, Apple has made a transition

00:14:14   from one thing to another.

00:14:17   It has not tried to sustain on an ongoing basis

00:14:20   two things at the same time,

00:14:22   so I'm not sure what Microsoft's endgame here is.

00:14:24   But anyway, I'm not really interested

00:14:26   in Microsoft's ongoing strategy

00:14:28   to find ways to sell people more copies of Windows

00:14:31   and making interesting hardware.

00:14:34   I'm mostly interested in this

00:14:36   because of the consumer experience

00:14:39   that is offered by these various ARM PCs.

00:14:42   These are all laptops, obviously, or portable things.

00:14:47   And a lot of these products offer to the customer

00:14:51   statistics like 20 hours of battery life.

00:14:54   And one reviewer said that he has been using it

00:14:58   for five days without charging the battery.

00:15:02   This was an ARM-based PC he was testing.

00:15:04   And most of these things come with LTE.

00:15:07   Now the modern, the slightly more modern than December twist on this is CES happened recently,

00:15:11   which I'm mostly doing my best to ignore, plus or minus the new televisions.

00:15:17   But apparently at CES, people who were there were saying, you know, you can't throw a rock

00:15:22   without hitting a laptop that has LTE.

00:15:24   So this combines two new ways for Marco to reiterate old complaints about Apple laptops.

00:15:29   One, battery life doesn't seem to be that great, and two, they don't have LTE.

00:15:34   And I have to think this is kind of one of those, if Microsoft is successful with these

00:15:39   things, like maybe they find a way to sell them, the emulator works well enough to make

00:15:43   people consider them, but it's not like they get a little bit more battery life than a

00:15:48   MacBook Adorable, because 20 hours is enough more than five or six hours that it's in a

00:15:56   different ballpark.

00:15:57   It changes how you would use this thing.

00:15:59   If you could buy an Apple laptop that was MacBookadorably-ish form factor with LTE that

00:16:08   got 20 hours of battery life, people would flip their lid.

00:16:12   And so the question is, why can't we buy that?

00:16:14   The LTE question we've talked about many times in the past.

00:16:17   Seems like it is within Apple's grasp to do that, but so far they haven't.

00:16:21   And the ARM thing we've also talked about in the past, but this is another scenario

00:16:24   kind of like the Microsoft Surface Studio and various other things that Microsoft does

00:16:29   where I look at it and I think Microsoft has better hardware ideas than Apple and is merely

00:16:36   thwarted by the fact that their platform is not as successful and they have lots of other

00:16:39   problems that are, you know, so you can say, well, you know, you kept saying the Microsoft

00:16:43   Server Studio is such a big deal, but it's not really setting the world on fire. Yes,

00:16:46   they have other problems. Like you don't win just because you have interesting hardware.

00:16:49   But it pains me to see Microsoft being more innovative in its hardware when I think if

00:16:53   Apple just did those same things, plus also stayed good at all the things that it's good

00:16:57   that on its much more, you know, sort of popular on the upswing platform, I think

00:17:03   we would all all love products like that. And I'm not saying it's time for Apple to

00:17:06   go to ARM or whatever, I'm just saying the longer Apple waits, the more its

00:17:11   laptops seem like they are, I don't know, I'm not gonna say like from another age,

00:17:17   but going in a different direction than everybody else. If I can't think of any

00:17:21   person who, you know, who is a current MacBook adorable owner, this is the

00:17:25   the 12-inch MacBook with one little port on the side of it, also known as the MacBook One,

00:17:28   and saying, "Great, you like that and everything, but what if I gave you the same thing

00:17:34   and it had to run some of your existing software and emulation, but you get 20 hours of battery

00:17:37   life and it has LTE?" I think a lot of people would be willing to give that a try. I know I would.

00:17:41   Oh, absolutely. I was just thinking earlier today that I love my adorable. I freaking love this

00:17:51   thing, but I was also thinking I would kill everyone I knew for a second port, but that's

00:17:56   a different issue.

00:17:57   I do love this thing, though.

00:17:58   I really and truly and honestly do.

00:18:01   It is not exceptionally fast.

00:18:03   It is only one port, which is very frustrating from time to time.

00:18:07   Not always, but from time to time.

00:18:09   But I love this computer.

00:18:12   And if you told me that I could get two times the battery life—not to say that I have

00:18:17   a problem with the battery life. But if you said, "Hey, charging once a day isn't even

00:18:22   necessary. Charge once a weekend." And/or you said, "Oh, and by the way, you can have

00:18:28   the internet anywhere? Oh my word, I would pay twice as much as I paid for this thing.

00:18:33   I think I paid like two or three thousand dollars for this thing." Whatever it was,

00:18:37   it was not insignificant given that it's the tiniest laptop that Apple sells. And I would

00:18:43   do anything, just like John was saying, I would do anything to have this Phantom laptop

00:18:49   with twice the battery life in LTE.

00:18:51   I don't care if it has an arm or not.

00:18:53   That to me is mostly irrelevant.

00:18:54   Obviously it's an interesting conversation for us three nerds, but as a consumer, I don't

00:18:58   care if it has an arm or not.

00:18:59   I just want it to last forever, which it sort of does now, and have LTE would be tremendous.

00:19:06   Yes, I understand.

00:19:07   You can tether.

00:19:08   I get that.

00:19:09   But to me, I'd prefer to have it on board if I could.

00:19:12   So the ARM factor is, you know, it's like if you put x86 in there, it wouldn't get 20

00:19:19   hours of error.

00:19:20   Like that's the contention of this being ARM, right?

00:19:23   And it starts to be ever more plausible when you think about how like the iPhone benchmarks

00:19:29   against the Adorable in single and multi-threaded like the modern iPhone, and then you compare

00:19:34   the size of the battery in the iPhone X to the size of the battery in the Adorable.

00:19:38   Now granted, the Adorable has a massive screen on it.

00:19:40   Like it's not apples to apples.

00:19:41   It's not 100% clear to me that, oh, just magically replace the CPU with ARM and you get 20 hours

00:19:45   of battery life.

00:19:47   But like I said, from a consumer's perspective, they don't know or care what hardware is inside

00:19:54   these, except as it might impact their software compatibility experience, and that's where

00:19:58   the emulator comes in and maybe that hurts their battery life.

00:20:00   But either way, if they treat this as a transition and go all the way, this is an experience

00:20:06   that Apple currently can't compete against.

00:20:08   It's very far from competing against.

00:20:10   And the other angle we didn't even get to here is the sort of Vitici angle where if

00:20:14   you were to go to the story that will link to the show notes from Ars Technica and look

00:20:17   at these products you would say, "But wait a second!

00:20:19   That's not a MacBook adorable!

00:20:20   That's an iPad with a keyboard!

00:20:22   That's like a Windows 10 convertible blah blah blah."

00:20:24   And remember Windows has the one OS strategy that handles touch and blah blah blah and

00:20:28   Apple doesn't.

00:20:29   And that brings us into a second conversation that I think I had probably around December

00:20:33   whenever I was on upgrade with Jason Snell talking about iOS laptops.

00:20:37   since then, or maybe it was before that, I remember,

00:20:40   Jason's written a couple of articles about it,

00:20:43   Viticci's talked about it forever, and it's come up again,

00:20:46   and so, you know, maybe the answer isn't

00:20:48   an adorable 20 hours of battery life,

00:20:49   maybe the answer is an iOS laptop,

00:20:52   which is another thing that people are climbing for,

00:20:54   and as I said on upgrade, Apple should totally make one,

00:20:56   because it is a known proven form factor,

00:20:58   and some people really like iOS,

00:21:00   and I can see you getting 20 hours of battery life

00:21:02   from an iOS laptop, so if you're not gonna do it

00:21:05   with the actual adorable, to make hazy happen,

00:21:08   do the iOS laptop thing?

00:21:10   - I think the iOS laptop thing is a thing

00:21:12   that they should do.

00:21:13   I don't know how good it would end up being,

00:21:15   but I know a lot of people who would buy them.

00:21:17   I would probably buy one.

00:21:18   I've had, ever since the 9.7 Pro came out,

00:21:22   I've used, I have dramatically increased my iPad usage

00:21:27   because I got it with the smart keyboard.

00:21:30   And the smart keyboard cover, it transforms an iPad

00:21:34   for a lot of people, and I'm one of them,

00:21:36   and I know I'm not the only one.

00:21:38   And it's pretty much always in it.

00:21:41   I never take it out of that cover.

00:21:43   I do occasionally, like if I'm gonna be sitting

00:21:44   on the couch for a while, I will occasionally

00:21:47   fold the keyboard behind it, but I'm not even detaching it.

00:21:51   I consider that keyboard part of my iPad.

00:21:53   So if we had basically what tablet PCs offered

00:21:57   like 15 years ago, which was the convertible form factor,

00:22:01   where it looks like a laptop except the hinge,

00:22:04   you could rotate the screen all the way around

00:22:07   and then flip it back to fold it back on itself.

00:22:10   PC makers still make laptops like this.

00:22:12   This is still a thing you can get.

00:22:14   That, some version of that as an iPad

00:22:17   that had a permanently attached keyboard

00:22:20   that was a really good keyboard

00:22:23   and then the whole thing could be shaped and weighted

00:22:26   the way a laptop is shaped and weighted

00:22:28   and have a lot of benefits there,

00:22:30   that would be an amazing device for a lot of people.

00:22:32   And this is not to say that all iPads

00:22:35   should become laptops, obviously that's not true.

00:22:38   But what we've seen with the stopping the fall

00:22:43   of iPad sales and starting to have some growth again

00:22:46   in the last few quarters, I think that's directly

00:22:50   attributable to two big changes in the iPad line.

00:22:54   Number one, that awesome new cheap 329 iPad,

00:22:58   that's a big thing.

00:22:58   and number two, the iPad Pro finally giving a lot of

00:23:03   high-end and business users what they've been begging for

00:23:07   for the iPad since day one.

00:23:09   I made this tweet about it that was kind of quick

00:23:13   on this point, but it's like the history of the iPad

00:23:16   has been like, Apple tries something.

00:23:19   They say, "We don't need legacy thing X, Y, or Z."

00:23:22   And then customers are like, "I don't know.

00:23:24   "I think we kind of do need that."

00:23:26   And Apple's like, "Nah, trust us, you don't need it."

00:23:27   And sometimes they're right.

00:23:29   And that's why I think they make that bet so often,

00:23:31   and they're so stubborn on it for so long most of the time,

00:23:35   because a lot of times they are right about that.

00:23:37   But sometimes they're not.

00:23:38   And when you have a pretty decent-sized portion

00:23:42   of your customer base hacking keyboards onto iPads

00:23:46   in weird ways in these crappy cases and brackets and things,

00:23:51   eventually you're like, okay, well,

00:23:54   let's actually just make the iPad do this well.

00:23:57   and we will make the iPad support it better.

00:23:59   The same way like the iPad One didn't have any support

00:24:04   in the hardware for a case.

00:24:06   And that's where the iPad One case was that horrible

00:24:09   like vinyl pocket thing that was a disaster

00:24:13   because there was no good way to attach a case to an iPad.

00:24:17   The iPad Two, they realized, oh,

00:24:19   everyone is attaching cases to this,

00:24:21   so we'll build in the magnets to have this,

00:24:24   you know, magnet connector on the side,

00:24:25   and that can support the case.

00:24:27   Over time, these needs expand, eventually we get

00:24:29   where we are with the iPad Pro now,

00:24:30   where we have the smart connector,

00:24:31   we have a nice easy way to attach keyboards

00:24:34   without dealing with Bluetooth or batteries or anything,

00:24:36   and Apple makes this nice one.

00:24:38   It really hasn't panned out that much in the sense

00:24:40   that nobody else really makes anything

00:24:41   for the smart connector, but Apple does at least.

00:24:44   So I feel like going towards this clamshell iPad option,

00:24:49   or this convertible iPad option, as kind of a half laptop,

00:24:55   That is a perfectly valid place for the iPad line to go.

00:24:58   Not all of them, but for that to be an option.

00:25:01   They already sell it in like four different sizes.

00:25:03   People are always like,

00:25:04   "Well, they only wanna ever make one.

00:25:05   "They wanna minimize SKUs."

00:25:08   No, that's not true anymore.

00:25:09   That has not been true for a long time

00:25:12   for most Apple product lines.

00:25:13   They're fine making additional models

00:25:15   if it expands the market.

00:25:17   And so I think this would expand the market by enough

00:25:21   to make it worth the additional cost of having it.

00:25:24   So that aside for a minute, let me just rant about LTE for one more time. This will be

00:25:28   quick. We don't have to think about why Apple might or might not want to put LTE in Mac

00:25:38   laptops. We don't have to. This does not have to be theoretical because PC laptops have

00:25:44   offered LTE built in as an option for over a decade. It's not theoretical at all. We

00:25:50   We can see why people want it, we can see that people buy it, we can see the good and

00:25:55   bad that comes from it, we can see how it can be managed and sold.

00:25:58   All of this has been shown by the PC world for over a decade.

00:26:03   The only good reason, they might have some bad reasons, but the only good reason why

00:26:09   I don't think Apple has LTE in Macs is because Mac hardware has spent so much of the last

00:26:17   a few years especially, but honestly,

00:26:19   a lot of the time since iOS came out,

00:26:22   Matt Carver has spent so much of this time in neglect

00:26:25   and in seemingly, the entire platform

00:26:28   has seemed to be in maintenance mode in a lot of ways.

00:26:31   And we see signs of this maybe not being true anymore

00:26:34   with things like the iMac Pro,

00:26:36   where this is like this awesome computer,

00:26:38   lots of custom engineering and everything.

00:26:41   So maybe we're coming out of this time,

00:26:44   but there is no question in my mind

00:26:46   that there is no good reason why we can't have LTE

00:26:51   as an option in MacBooks.

00:26:52   There are only bad reasons.

00:26:54   And if Apple wanted to make it happen,

00:26:56   if they cared to make that happen in the Mac line,

00:26:59   if they thought that was a thing that was worth their time,

00:27:02   they could do it.

00:27:03   It would be totally fine.

00:27:05   Mac OS has had support for distinguishing

00:27:08   cellular connections on network API requests.

00:27:11   Since I think Mountain Lion or something,

00:27:13   it's been there for a while now.

00:27:15   So the software support is there.

00:27:18   There are apps like Trip Mode,

00:27:19   if you really need to watch it more than that.

00:27:22   But these are all solved problems on the software side.

00:27:26   The hardware side is, okay, is it a cost issue?

00:27:29   Charge more for it.

00:27:31   It's a cost issue on the iPads too.

00:27:33   You can get a $1000 iPad Pro,

00:27:36   and then you can add LTE to it for like 150 bucks.

00:27:39   Like that's okay, whatever you need to charge,

00:27:41   charge it, okay.

00:27:43   We will bear that as the market.

00:27:45   People want this.

00:27:47   Yes, you can tether, as you mentioned earlier, Casey,

00:27:49   but tethering sucks.

00:27:51   It's not always on, your phone isn't always with you,

00:27:53   you're draining two batteries in instead of one.

00:27:54   Like, that sucks, nobody wants that.

00:27:57   Yes, you have to have another plan for another device,

00:27:59   but these days, we have plans for our watches now,

00:28:02   for God's sake.

00:28:03   Plans for additional devices have become easier and easier

00:28:07   over time, and cheaper and cheaper over time.

00:28:09   There are so many people who would buy a MacBook Pro,

00:28:13   or a MacBook, whatever, I don't care.

00:28:15   some Apple laptop running Mac OS,

00:28:16   I don't care what it's called,

00:28:17   they would buy that with an LTE option

00:28:21   for an extra, I don't know, 200 bucks,

00:28:23   and would gladly pay an extra 20 to $40 a month

00:28:27   to have that on a cellular plan.

00:28:29   This is not theoretical.

00:28:31   The entire PC world has done this for a decade.

00:28:33   We know this, we see this.

00:28:35   We know it can be done.

00:28:37   Apple, for God's sake, it's way past time, just do it.

00:28:40   - So in that category of things that Apple, you know,

00:28:44   sees other people doing this is we don't need to do that. One very minor one, well

00:28:48   I don't know, I don't think it's that minor because I continue to be annoyed

00:28:51   by it despite the fact that I'm not really in the market for this thing. Take

00:28:55   a look at the picture at the top of that Ars Technica article about the Windows

00:28:59   10 PCs and you know so this is a great example of a convertible iPad-ish type

00:29:05   thing and it's got an OS on it that runs your desktop apps but you can also touch

00:29:09   it and it's got a keyboard and it's got a little kickstand. This is actually a

00:29:12   less laptop-y, more smart keyboard-y things.

00:29:14   - There's a little loop where you can store your pen.

00:29:16   - Look at that.

00:29:17   A, it's got a pen, which is in the earlier category

00:29:20   of things that Apple didn't seem like it needed

00:29:21   until I realized it.

00:29:22   But B, guess what?

00:29:23   It has a place for you to put the pen

00:29:26   that you're going to use with your tablet-y thing.

00:29:29   And there are a million third-party ways to do that,

00:29:32   but I'm not entirely sure what Apple expects people to do.

00:29:35   Like, do they expect people to put it behind their ear,

00:29:37   like a carpenter or something?

00:29:39   - By the way, the third-party ways all suck.

00:29:42   I've tried many of them, they're all terrible.

00:29:44   - Right, I just saw one today of like another one

00:29:47   of these things like a case with a big long stick

00:29:50   that magnetically attached to the smart cover or whatever.

00:29:52   It's like, you know, it's almost like we had it better

00:29:56   in the Palm days where all those devices came

00:29:57   with a little slot where you put that tiny little

00:29:59   stinky plastic stylus.

00:30:01   Hell, the Newton had slots for you to slide a stylus into.

00:30:03   They had a collapsible one where it went in

00:30:05   sort of horizontally and the message pad 110,

00:30:09   it went in vertically.

00:30:11   If you're, you know, they sell a stylus now,

00:30:13   a pretty good one, and people like it,

00:30:14   and the people who like it want to use it with their iPad,

00:30:17   because as far as I'm aware,

00:30:18   you can't use that stylus anywhere else, can you?

00:30:20   Like, it doesn't work with anything except for an iPad.

00:30:22   So the only reason you own it is to use it with your iPad,

00:30:25   and I guess you just carry the pencil in one hand

00:30:28   and the iPad in the other.

00:30:29   It's just, this just seems like a huge oversight.

00:30:33   And so my tiny, tiny miniature wishlist thing

00:30:37   that Apple should do, obviously LTE is bigger,

00:30:39   and you know, iOS laptops is bigger,

00:30:41   but like if we can't get either one of those things, Apple,

00:30:44   give us an officially supported place

00:30:46   to put the Apple Pencil so that you can carry both it

00:30:51   and the iPad that it goes with together in some way

00:30:54   where there is a reasonable chance

00:30:55   that they won't immediately detach and you'll lose it.

00:30:57   (laughing)

00:30:59   - Yeah, there's also, I mean, I honestly,

00:31:00   I think the Pencil could use a lot more consideration

00:31:02   than that, but maybe that's for another show.

00:31:05   - Yeah, but anyway, Microsoft obviously has been

00:31:07   on that page for a long time,

00:31:08   'cause they're sort of a kitchen sink thing.

00:31:09   "Oh, it's a laptop, it's a tablet, you can draw on it, you can touch the screen, it's

00:31:13   got a stylus, you know, it's got a--" hell, the Surface Book thing had that whatever,

00:31:17   that little cylinder thing that you stick on the screen and turn and do all sorts of

00:31:21   things.

00:31:22   The knob!

00:31:23   Yeah, they're trying all sorts of stuff.

00:31:24   I'm just saying like, we've crossed the stylus Rubicon here, like we're all in stylus land,

00:31:31   we just need some place to put it.

00:31:33   And I say this, I own one of these, and you know where mine is?

00:31:36   It is on my nightstand next to my iPad.

00:31:39   And no, it doesn't roll off because it's vaguely weighted and I have it on the inside instead

00:31:42   of the outside, but it just annoys me.

00:31:45   Like one of the reasons I never have my stylus with my iPad is I don't have a way to attach

00:31:49   it.

00:31:50   And all those third-party ways always just seemed a little bit, I don't know, inconvenient

00:31:54   for me, especially since I'm not like a super heavy stylus user.

00:31:58   But honestly, there should be an Apple-supported way to do it, please.

00:32:02   I just want my MacBook adorable with LTE.

00:32:04   Yes, I would pay the extra fees for it if I really thought it was useful.

00:32:08   You wouldn't pay as much as a watch, you know why?

00:32:10   No!

00:32:11   Because the adorable is so much bigger than the watch.

00:32:13   And the watch is so small, you shouldn't pay money for a small thing.

00:32:16   Why should I pay for that?

00:32:17   It's just sipping data.

00:32:19   Who buys batteries?

00:32:20   That's why Mac apps get more money, because the screens are bigger.

00:32:22   Yeah, right.

00:32:23   Well, I feel like we kind of got sidetracked, though, on the idea of ARM.

00:32:28   Us?

00:32:29   Yeah, I know, right?

00:32:31   Do we think that this is realistic?

00:32:32   I feel like we went through this like six months ago or something like that, and I don't

00:32:37   remember what conclusion we came to.

00:32:40   It seems to me like if it wasn't for the fact that there's so many third parties that would

00:32:45   need to get on board this train, this would have maybe already happened at this point.

00:32:50   Like it seems like Apple would want to control the entire stack.

00:32:55   They're clearly very good at making ARM CPUs.

00:32:58   The ARM CPUs they make are clearly very power efficient.

00:33:02   In so many ways, I'm slightly surprised

00:33:04   they haven't dipped their toes into this water.

00:33:06   Although I agree with, I think it was John

00:33:08   that said earlier that they don't typically

00:33:11   straddle to platforms.

00:33:14   They will just decide, okay, we're going from PowerPC

00:33:16   to Intel or we're going from Intel to ARM, et cetera.

00:33:18   But I don't know, I feel like this is an inevitability,

00:33:23   but remind me of this in like 15 years

00:33:26   when we're still on Intel processors.

00:33:28   - Well, they're playing chicken with that inevitability.

00:33:31   So we all see it as an inevitability, but it's, you know, the game of chicken is that

00:33:35   inevitability of like, look, they got a new arm.

00:33:37   Like they're so good at doing ARM CPUs.

00:33:38   Their ARM CPUs are getting better and better.

00:33:40   Like isn't it only a matter of time?

00:33:42   The car racing in the other direction at that eventuality is, yeah, but if they keep holding

00:33:49   on, eventually the Mac will just fade away on its own and we won't have to deal with

00:33:52   it because iOS has always been ARM and so problem solved, right?

00:33:56   It gets back to the Mac investment thing.

00:33:58   in our past discussions, like, look, if you really want to go ARM on the Mac, it's very

00:34:02   difficult to support both for a long time, which means you're kind of signing up to build

00:34:09   like an 18-core ARM processor to compete with Xeon's if you're still going to be in that

00:34:13   market, which, as of last year, Apple has decisively said, yes, we want to be in the

00:34:17   market. Marco's sitting in front of one right now. So if you want to go ARM on the Mac,

00:34:22   oh, now it's not just, yes, great. So we can take the phone CPU and throw it in a laptop

00:34:25   and we're like, oh, we're good to go there,

00:34:27   it's a perfect fit.

00:34:28   What do you put in the iMac Pro?

00:34:31   And then you got the Thunderbolt issue,

00:34:32   and it's like, yeah, we could solve all these problems,

00:34:34   you could totally do it.

00:34:35   If the Mac was a growing platform

00:34:36   and it was the future of the company, they would do that.

00:34:39   They would make ARM CPUs with 18 cores in them,

00:34:41   they compete with Xeon's,

00:34:42   and they would figure out the Thunderbolt thing

00:34:43   and they'd be fine.

00:34:44   But that's not where the Mac is right now.

00:34:46   And so it's like, do we really want to put that much money

00:34:48   into a platform that we sell so little of?

00:34:50   Maybe if we just hold on long enough,

00:34:52   we won't have to worry about this problem

00:34:53   and it will solve itself.

00:34:54   So that is the game of chicken I see on the ARM CPUs.

00:34:57   Like in the fantasy engineer world,

00:34:59   it seems like a no brainer that Apple would do it

00:35:02   because they're so good at it.

00:35:03   And surely they do a great job

00:35:04   or they'd work out the tech issues.

00:35:06   But in the reality where you have to look at sales numbers

00:35:09   and consider how much you're investing and yada, yada, yada,

00:35:12   it does not look like a sure bet,

00:35:16   that, you know, clearly the right thing for Apple to do.

00:35:19   So, you know, every year, like you smell the wind

00:35:24   be like, "Is this the year for ARM?"

00:35:27   And I suppose that the thing that could make it happen sooner rather than later or not

00:35:30   at all is Apple could actually decide, "We're going to do a two CPU strategy.

00:35:35   We're not going to bother trying to compete with Xeon."

00:35:38   But all these next year's set of ARM system-mounted chips for iPhones and iPads could cover such

00:35:48   a vast portion of their laptop line at this point, right, in terms of CPU power and GPU

00:35:54   power for that matter, that they could sell more than half of their Macs with ARM CPUs

00:36:00   without having to basically build the new chips.

00:36:02   Like I say, we're building these anyway for the iPads and the iPhones.

00:36:06   Repurpose them, do all the work we have to do to the OS, voila, ARM on the Mac and, you

00:36:12   know, the Mac Pro and the iMac Pro and all that other stuff, you know, we're not going

00:36:16   put that much money into ARM to build chips for those.

00:36:20   So those will just stay with x86 and we'll just continue to ride this out with two CPU

00:36:24   architectures.

00:36:25   But so far Apple's never done that and I don't think that strategy is a good idea.

00:36:29   I think the strategy is commit and convert.

00:36:32   Either go big or go home.

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00:38:33   (upbeat music)

00:38:37   - Jon, tell me about Windows 10 sets.

00:38:39   This was, I haven't been keeping up with Windows 10.

00:38:42   I have not actually ever run Windows 10.

00:38:44   My Windows stuff at work is Windows 8 or earlier.

00:38:48   I still retreat to the comfort of Windows 7,

00:38:51   the relative comfort of Windows 7

00:38:52   for someone who's not a Windows user, obviously.

00:38:54   Although I bet Windows users are comfortable

00:38:56   in Windows 7 too.

00:38:57   Like, yeah, that was the last one

00:38:58   that still seemed vaguely like Windows,

00:38:59   but Windows 8 screwed it all up.

00:39:00   Some people like Windows 10.

00:39:01   But anyway, Windows 10 sets,

00:39:05   I'm assuming this is an official shipping feature,

00:39:07   but I can't really tell

00:39:08   'cause it's just a YouTube video

00:39:09   I know it's just a speculative thing. But you know my love of window arranging and so to see any OS vendor

00:39:15   Coming up with new strategies for dealing with windows is interesting to me now

00:39:20   Obviously the windows the windows windowing model is so different from the Mac and I like the Mac windowing model better

00:39:25   but given the windows windowing model where

00:39:28   everything it's his own damn window and it's its own little taskbar item and

00:39:34   its own independent entity and potentially also its own duplicate running instance of an application like is

00:39:40   Everything flies in the face of the Mac model

00:39:42   But given that model on Windows we got a lot of Windows floating around many of which are actually independent instances of programs

00:39:48   it's difficult to figure out how to

00:39:50   To come up with a sort of a system or to create any sort of hierarchy like on the Mac because you basically can't have you

00:39:59   Know I don't technically you can but from a user's perspective

00:40:04   You can only have one instance of an application running at once, right?

00:40:07   So if you start Safari and it shows up in your dock

00:40:09   What if I want to run a second instance of Safari?

00:40:12   Well, you can't now obviously if you know what you're doing, you can make that happen, but regular users

00:40:16   If they double-click Safari again in the finder

00:40:19   It doesn't launch a second Safari on your dock if you click it again on your dock

00:40:22   It doesn't launch a second Safari

00:40:24   You've got Safari and within Safari you have multiple Safari windows and then within windows you have multiple tabs that hierarchy on the Mac

00:40:31   Application is one level and then drill down one level each application can have zero or more windows. That's

00:40:37   One fundamental aspect of doing well windows is not like that. So if you don't have that hierarchy, I mean

00:40:44   Windows kind of had that hierarchy back in the day. Maybe you two windows

00:40:48   Victims can tell me about this. Do you remember the windowing model? I think I think maybe Visual Studio did it at one point

00:40:54   There was a name for it that I used to know where you'd have a parent window and all di

00:40:58   Yeah, and all child windows were inside the parent window.

00:41:01   Called MDI, Multiple Document Interface.

00:41:03   Yeah, that was a terrible idea.

00:41:05   But anyway, there is still that hierarchy because you can launch one instance of IE

00:41:09   and have multiple tabs, and in many applications you could launch one instance of the application

00:41:12   and open multiple documents, even though depending on the taskbar model.

00:41:15   Yeah, that's what Photoshop has always done in various ways.

00:41:18   Yeah, because that started as a Mac app, so this inherited.

00:41:21   So you have some flexibility to do it, but in general it's much more flat in Windows.

00:41:24   So Windows 10 sets, it's kind of like when Apple added framework support for tabbed windows

00:41:33   on the Mac where it was easy for a Mac application to say we're going to support tabs that look

00:41:37   and behave vaguely like Safari tabs.

00:41:39   So previously you'd have my document-based application text edit.

00:41:44   You know, you launch text edit and you open a bunch of new documents and each document

00:41:47   is in a new window.

00:41:49   And with the framework support for tabbing, it's like, oh, it's pretty easy for text edit

00:41:52   to say, now I support tabs.

00:41:53   And you could take your two text edit windows and merge them together and now they're in one tabbed window that kind of looks like

00:41:58   A safari window with little safari tabs right they added that a couple years ago. Well Windows 10 sets adds

00:42:03   Tabbed windowing sort of to the window manager so that an OS level you can assemble

00:42:09   Windows from multiple different applications into one tabbed

00:42:14   Mega window to make a set of documents, so you've got a web browser window a text editor window

00:42:20   your graphics application window,

00:42:23   all are tabs within the same master window.

00:42:27   So it's not like it's seven PowerPoint documents,

00:42:30   it's a PowerPoint document, an IE document,

00:42:32   like a Finder window, whatever they're called in Windows.

00:42:36   A file system thing showing your disk explorer,

00:42:40   is it even called that anymore, who knows?

00:42:42   And that's their way of organization.

00:42:46   So instead of just being a flat stew of windows,

00:42:49   which is one of the many reasons that Windows usually loves to full screen because look,

00:42:52   there is no hierarchy, so just give each window the entire screen and I will just furiously

00:42:56   alt-tab between them and I will feel efficient.

00:42:59   Now that you have the ability to make sets of windows based on whatever task you're doing,

00:43:04   kind of like I've talked about making sets of tabs in my web browser, this is my like,

00:43:08   I'm shopping for a new screwdriver window and I have like seven tabs at different sites

00:43:13   looking at screwdrivers, right?

00:43:15   This could be I'm working on a project, here's all the graphics from the project, here's

00:43:18   Here's my research window, here's a text editor window, here's a web preview of what I'm doing.

00:43:25   Put them all together into one big set and then the cloud twist is, oh, and also Microsoft

00:43:29   will cloud sync those sets.

00:43:31   So if you go over to another Windows 10 computer and log in as you, you can recall that set

00:43:36   and say, "What was I working on?"

00:43:37   Bring up that Windows set from that thing I was working on and all those windows appear

00:43:42   on your new computer, all those tabs or whatever.

00:43:46   So I think that's very intriguing.

00:43:47   I would love both that statefulness and the ability to sort of mix and match Windows in

00:43:52   a task-oriented way.

00:43:55   It doesn't work really with the Mac windowing model, so I don't think Apple should look

00:44:00   at this and adopt it wholesale, but I'm kind of excited by Windows itself taking another

00:44:06   look at something as basic as window document and application management and trying to come

00:44:12   up with a, you know, I'm not going to say it's novel because I'm sure 57 ex-Windows

00:44:17   managers have done this exact same thing.

00:44:20   But I found it interesting, and there are parts of it I find attractive, especially

00:44:23   the cloud syncing and statefulness.

00:44:26   Of course, all the caveats apply.

00:44:28   Does this require support from application vendors?

00:44:30   Will the only person who supports it be Microsoft?

00:44:32   If you take a bunch of cruddy Windows applications and try to use it with this, will they not

00:44:35   behave correctly?

00:44:36   Historically, Microsoft has had a harder time getting all its developers to adopt new technologies.

00:44:41   Apple has done better.

00:44:46   They're a little bit spotty in recent years, especially with things like autosave and state

00:44:49   restoration and stuff like that that kind of flew in the face of Mac orthodoxy and was

00:44:54   sort of only halfheartedly implemented by some Mac applications.

00:44:57   But in general, I think Apple has a better time at it.

00:45:00   So once again, I am in the position where I am forced to praise Microsoft and be proud

00:45:06   of what they're doing and wish Apple not did the same things, but innovated with a similar

00:45:13   spirit.

00:45:14   Like, when's the last time Apple looked at window management on the Mac and had some

00:45:18   bold new ideas?

00:45:19   Like, they added some vague, slightly annoying snapping thing in, like, Sierra and then,

00:45:27   like, the tiling thing.

00:45:29   Was that Sierra, too?

00:45:30   They added a couple of minor features in half-hearted ways in recent years, but nothing that, you

00:45:36   tries to not fundamentally rethink, but add a dramatically new feature akin to

00:45:41   like you know mission control or expose or whatever. Like in the early days of

00:45:47   Mac OS X, you know, that's what they were doing. They were saying, you know, we have

00:45:51   a new idea of how you might want to manage Windows and we call it expose and

00:45:54   later we'll rename it and make it even more confusing. And then spaces, like this

00:45:58   is not a new idea, but hey we think it's maybe worth bringing to the Mac and

00:46:01   we'll refine it and try to make a different model. I miss that. I miss those

00:46:05   days of windowing innovation.

00:46:08   - Yeah, I mean, this is just one more area

00:46:10   where it feels like the Mac is in maintenance mode.

00:46:13   One of these times, one of these cool experiments

00:46:17   by somebody else is going to take off.

00:46:20   Like, Microsoft is doing a lot of things,

00:46:22   they're trying a lot of things,

00:46:23   and yeah, they aren't all working,

00:46:25   but some of them are and some of them will,

00:46:27   and it's, you know, both in hardware and software

00:46:30   with what they're trying over there.

00:46:32   And Apple is really not trying that much

00:46:35   on this level with the Mac.

00:46:38   The touch bar is probably the only thing

00:46:41   that was on anywhere near this level that they tried,

00:46:44   and that was more of a hardware,

00:46:46   I know the implementation crosses everything,

00:46:47   but that was more of a hardware feature

00:46:49   than a software feature from the user point of view.

00:46:52   And it wasn't particularly well received,

00:46:54   and I think history will judge it as a flop,

00:46:58   if the president has it at least.

00:47:00   but that doesn't mean they should not try anything else.

00:47:03   That just means the one thing they tried

00:47:05   that was anywhere near this type of thing didn't work out.

00:47:08   But they need to keep trying because the PC industry is.

00:47:12   And we forget sometimes quite how small percentage-wise

00:47:16   the Mac has compared to PCs in market share.

00:47:23   And the Mac is much more influential

00:47:26   compared to its market share size than you would expect.

00:47:28   but if people are like on their work PCs

00:47:32   and they're using all these things at work

00:47:34   and they get used to something like this sets feature,

00:47:38   then the Mac just looks bad by comparison for not having it.

00:47:42   And the more, as time goes on,

00:47:45   the more Microsoft tries things,

00:47:47   some percentage of them will stick,

00:47:49   some of them already have, like touchscreen laptops.

00:47:51   Again, we all made fun of that, Apple makes fun of that,

00:47:53   but the reality is people use them and like them

00:47:57   it's fine, and Apple doesn't do that.

00:47:59   And so when somebody who is used to being able

00:48:01   to scroll the screen on their laptop occasionally

00:48:02   with their finger or poke a link with their finger sometimes

00:48:04   they go to a Mac and that doesn't work.

00:48:06   And that doesn't make Apple look like

00:48:08   great product visionaries, it makes the Mac look broken

00:48:10   or outdated.

00:48:12   And over time, the number of things that cause that feeling

00:48:16   in new buyers is going to increase.

00:48:19   That's my concern with the Mac stagnating is that

00:48:22   Apple can keep the Mac kind of in maintenance mode

00:48:25   for a lot of the platform, and you might think,

00:48:28   "Oh, well Apple's fine, they're selling iPhones and iPads."

00:48:30   Yeah, it's fine.

00:48:32   But the rest of the industry that the Mac competes with

00:48:35   is moving forward, with or without Apple.

00:48:37   They are moving.

00:48:39   And if Apple is not even really putting in a strong effort

00:48:43   to compete with them, the Mac isn't going to remain

00:48:46   constant over time, it's going to decline over time.

00:48:49   It's going to start falling behind in big ways.

00:48:52   And I don't want that to happen

00:48:53   to my favorite computing platform of all time.

00:48:57   - I'm just tired of being sad, man.

00:48:58   I'm tired of being sad.

00:49:00   - I'm happy with this, I'm my pro, I'll tell you that.

00:49:02   But it had nothing to do with the software.

00:49:03   - Yeah, I was gonna say,

00:49:05   the touch bar, as Marco said, is a reason to be happy,

00:49:08   because look, that was a pretty big investment

00:49:10   and a pretty important, dramatic, clearly Mac-only feature.

00:49:13   Doesn't seem to have worked out, whatever,

00:49:15   but that's exactly what we're asking for.

00:49:16   You gotta try things, right?

00:49:18   But I would say that the T2 in Marco's iMac Pro

00:49:22   another example of, granted mostly hardware-based, but interesting

00:49:25   innovation that, you know, it's borrowing technology from iOS, like it's

00:49:30   building on other successes, so that's just smart business, but they didn't have

00:49:34   to do that. They could have made a more traditional Xeon-based PC and slapped it

00:49:38   inside an iMac case, but they didn't. There's extra cost

00:49:43   and expense involved in adapting that iOS hardware and software to the Mac, and

00:49:48   And they did it, and that's an exciting avenue for innovation, I think.

00:49:53   To make Macs less like Apple-branded Hackentoshes, and more like, you can't assemble this from parts.

00:50:02   This has advantages over a PC that you would build in terms of performance, power draw, security, all the areas that we expect Apple to innovate in.

00:50:11   in, which for many years, even in the Mac's heyday, in the jobs, you know, PowerBC G3/G4

00:50:17   era, when Macs were very exciting and were the bread and butter of the company, those

00:50:23   Macs inside were more conventionally like PCs than Marco's iMac Pro is.

00:50:28   They didn't have some weird custom ARM chip implementing secure boot, they were more or

00:50:31   less on the same, you know, what is it, EFI and later the all of Intel's security features.

00:50:41   But it wasn't like Apple was building these giant custom chips to do all of its like image

00:50:45   processing from the camera and to run the SSD and to do a secure boot and stuff like

00:50:50   that.

00:50:51   That I think is innovation.

00:50:52   It's not software innovation, but it is innovation and investment in the Mac.

00:50:55   So I'm heartened by the renewed interest and yeah, we all would have liked the Touch

00:51:00   bar to maybe be more to our tastes. You know, maybe some people like it, but for the three

00:51:03   of us, it hasn't really set the world on fire. So I guess more of that, please, and, you

00:51:11   know, with a higher batting average.

00:51:14   Well, and, you know, it seems like there's obviously a lot of different areas in which

00:51:18   Apple is innovating or not innovating or moving forward or just in maintenance mode. My main

00:51:24   The main complaint about stagnation is in frequency

00:51:28   of hardware updates, number one, and number two,

00:51:30   the much bigger problem, I think, is the software platform.

00:51:34   You know, it's very, I think there's,

00:51:36   John, I think there's a lot of parallels to be made

00:51:37   to your, you know, Copeland 2010?

00:51:41   Yeah. (laughs)

00:51:42   To that article, like, you know, the arguments you made

00:51:44   back forever ago, which is like, you know, at some point,

00:51:47   forgive me for trying to paraphrase your argument,

00:51:49   but at some point, you know,

00:51:52   they can't continue doing this forever,

00:51:53   something has to change, there has to be a next generation

00:51:55   version of this at some point.

00:51:57   And I don't know, we don't have enough insight into Apple

00:52:00   to know, is there a next generation version of Mac OS

00:52:04   that they're working on?

00:52:05   Because we don't see any signs of that,

00:52:08   and obviously we probably wouldn't until it was

00:52:10   much further along and almost ready to ship,

00:52:12   but if there isn't, that's a big problem.

00:52:16   That's a really big problem.

00:52:17   Because the OS we're using right now on the Mac is,

00:52:23   It's fine in a lot of ways, it's world class in a lot of ways, but it's really ancient

00:52:27   and creaky and has a lot of baggage and does a lot of things in really outdated ways.

00:52:32   That is catching up to it.

00:52:34   It has been catching up to it for quite some time, it's going to keep catching up to it

00:52:37   more and more.

00:52:39   And for Apple to move the Mac forward, they need to be investing heavily in it.

00:52:43   They need to be giving it its next generation operating system, a next generation platform.

00:52:49   And so things like the Touch Bar and the T2

00:52:51   are awesome on the hardware side.

00:52:54   The iMac Pro is amazing.

00:52:56   I continue to be incredibly happy with it as a computer.

00:52:59   But Mac OS is starving for attention.

00:53:02   It is stagnating, it is falling apart.

00:53:05   It is starving.

00:53:06   High Sierra is in many ways pathetic and scary

00:53:11   in how sloppy things were done with it,

00:53:15   how many bugs there still are in a lot of areas.

00:53:17   security bugs are embarrassing. I mean, it's getting worse. Every release seems like it's

00:53:22   getting worse. Sierra was a terrible release also. Very unreliable, lots of bugs, lots

00:53:27   of problems, lots of subsystems and things that were seemingly rewritten for vague reasons

00:53:32   and then were worse and more buggy. Like, this is increasing over time because they're

00:53:38   not putting the resources into the OS that it needs to be stable and secure and to be

00:53:44   moved forward. That's my concern area. It's not about the T2 and the touch bar. It's

00:53:49   that macOS itself is not being properly maintained and invested in. And hopefully I'm wrong.

00:53:55   Hopefully I'm totally wrong and they're working on an awesome new next generation,

00:53:59   you know, OS 11 or whatever it would be called. Not that, but you know. Hopefully I'm wrong

00:54:03   about all this. But we have seen no signs in that direction. So we have no way to know.

00:54:09   If there's a next-gen operating system, I don't think it would be a next-gen macro operating system.

00:54:13   It would be a next-gen Apple operating system that would span the range, right?

00:54:17   Because like what you're really talking about for next-gen operating systems, and honestly, I don't think Apple is at the Copeland 2010 point

00:54:23   just because like in the if you look at the the rate of important advancement in computing

00:54:30   lots of really important sort of

00:54:35   industry changing, paradigm shifting stuff happened really early on in that beginning

00:54:40   part. Going from very simple computers to more complicated ones and it just so happens

00:54:45   that Apple's success with the Apple II and the Mac happened to hit right before all of

00:54:52   the personal computers got on the memory protection preemptive multitasking bandwagon. So it was

00:54:57   unfortunate timing that they were successful with a slightly older platform. But there's

00:55:02   There's nothing out there as clear cut as like memory protection.

00:55:05   You either have it or you don't and it's a pretty big innovation and if you are unfortunate

00:55:09   enough to be massively successful with a platform that doesn't have it, it's very hard to add

00:55:13   it after the fact.

00:55:15   Everyone else has it and it's not a minor thing.

00:55:17   But there's no room for an extra operating system but I think Apple can get along with

00:55:21   their mock BSD amalgam.

00:55:26   As they've shown, they can bring that down to watches and all the way up to Macs.

00:55:30   So it's fairly flexible and it's pretty neat and they can piecemeal replace parts of it

00:55:34   and improve it so it's still got life left in it.

00:55:36   But eventually you want a next generation operating system.

00:55:40   That next generation operating system is not a next generation iOS and not a next generation

00:55:43   Mac operating system.

00:55:44   It's a next generation Apple operating system that will probably have to run on their self-driving

00:55:48   cars and your watch and your glasses and your whatever.

00:55:55   That's where they would go and I don't think it's pressing for them to do that now.

00:55:59   But all their car projects and any other weird things they've tried with glasses and rings

00:56:07   and whatever, those are avenues to experiment with different kernels, real-time operating

00:56:13   systems, things optimized for neural nets, which arguably they're experimenting with

00:56:18   on the phone with whatever that – what's the little thing, the name, the branding name

00:56:22   they gave to the neural processing thing.

00:56:25   CoreML?

00:56:26   No, no, no.

00:56:27   Bionic?

00:56:28   No.

00:56:29   There was some part of the chip that was dedicated to help.

00:56:33   Anyway, I've heard lots of rumors of experimentation with different sort of kernels and sort of

00:56:42   core OS designs and also anything they're doing with the car.

00:56:47   I've also heard rumors that that stack was potentially different from the bottom up than

00:56:52   a lot of the existing ones.

00:56:54   Whether those things go anywhere, I guess I don't think it's pressing, but if and when

00:56:59   When a next generation Apple operating platform comes along, I fully expect it to span the

00:57:03   range of all their products and to finally and decisively the dichotomy between Mac and

00:57:11   iOS, which is to say I don't think it is imminent.

00:57:13   We're much more likely to get something sooner, as we talked about in a couple shows ago with

00:57:17   the unified UI framework, right?

00:57:20   That is a much more reasonable incremental step towards that goal.

00:57:25   And right now, it could be argued that Apple currently has a unified low-level OS across

00:57:31   all their products.

00:57:32   Because under the covers, it's all Mac, BSD, Darwin, however you want it.

00:57:36   That's underneath all of them.

00:57:37   It's not like the watch, as far as I'm aware, is running a dramatically different operating

00:57:42   system from the kernel all the way up than your Mac is.

00:57:45   So there is a common foundational platform with various bits stripped down on it and

00:57:50   obviously different architectures and different optimizations and stuff like that.

00:57:54   It's just that as you get up to the higher layer, this historical, somewhat artificial

00:58:01   distinction appears.

00:58:02   "Oh, this is a Mac app, that's an iPad app."

00:58:04   No, they're totally different.

00:58:05   They look kind of the same, yeah, I know, but just they're same core OS, same core—yeah,

00:58:09   I know, but they're not.

00:58:10   It's not the same thing.

00:58:12   So I think Apple can address that top layer before they have to go all the way down to

00:58:15   the bottom and start, you know—what was that?

00:58:18   Google has a project like that?

00:58:20   What is it called?

00:58:21   This is the show where I can't remember the names of anything.

00:58:25   Fuchsia?

00:58:26   There we go.

00:58:27   I pulled it out.

00:58:28   Pulled it out before the chat room.

00:58:29   Ha.

00:58:30   Their Fuchsia operating system is sort of like an out in the open, let's try this experiment

00:58:34   with another potential platform, which is such an un-Apple-like thing to do, which like

00:58:38   sows confusion.

00:58:39   It's like, wait, so are you still doing Chrome OS?

00:58:43   And what about Android?

00:58:44   And what the hell is Fuchsia?

00:58:45   And not an Apple move at all.

00:58:47   But Apple should be doing things exactly like that internally.

00:58:50   - Maybe they are, who knows?

00:58:52   I don't know, it's just weird, 'cause in the last 24 hours,

00:58:57   as I mentioned previously, I've been reminded how much

00:59:01   I freaking love this MacBook Adorable.

00:59:05   Even the keyboard, which admittedly is not the most

00:59:08   reliable thing in the world, but I do love the feel

00:59:11   of it, something tremendous.

00:59:13   - It turns off by itself sometimes, but it's fine.

00:59:15   I won't mention that for six months.

00:59:16   - Yeah, exactly, it's not a big deal.

00:59:19   I love this little laptop.

00:59:21   And I love this little laptop's hardware design.

00:59:25   But I tell ya, Apple software is not doing it for me.

00:59:31   And for a fleeting moment earlier today,

00:59:34   actually, I mean it was yesterday,

00:59:36   it's all a blur you guys.

00:59:37   Anyway, for a fleeting moment sometime in the last 48 hours,

00:59:40   I thought to myself,

00:59:41   "Man, I wonder if I should just try Windows again."

00:59:43   - No.

00:59:44   - Because, well, and I know that that's the answer,

00:59:46   But I'm looking at, and I think I tweeted about this,

00:59:49   but I was trying to pull pictures off my iPhone.

00:59:53   And Image Capture, which is an app that comes

00:59:57   with the operating system that is designed

00:59:59   to do specifically this and almost nothing else,

01:00:01   Image Capture says, "Oh, I can't do that

01:00:04   "because of error negative 9917."

01:00:06   And I was like, well, crap, at this point,

01:00:08   I'm basically using Windows already.

01:00:10   That's a useful error message.

01:00:11   Negative 9917.

01:00:13   - No, only the Mac operating system

01:00:15   as negative number error messages, right?

01:00:17   - That's probably an OS status.

01:00:18   - That's deep Mac flavor,

01:00:21   negative number in an error dialog.

01:00:25   - All I'm saying is,

01:00:26   it was a completely non-actionable error,

01:00:30   and I could not find anything useful on the internet

01:00:33   about what to do about it.

01:00:34   And I don't know if the issue was

01:00:37   that something on my iPhone is corrupted,

01:00:40   and the issue is iOS software is kind of broken,

01:00:44   or at least for me anyway.

01:00:45   I don't know if it was something that was wrong with my Mac.

01:00:49   I tried two different Macs,

01:00:51   had different but similar problems across both.

01:00:55   It's just things like what drew me to the platform.

01:00:57   - I can tell you what the problem was.

01:00:59   You were doing something that Apple does not give,

01:01:02   they could not possibly give less of a shit about.

01:01:05   You were connecting an iPad,

01:01:07   or you were connecting an iPhone to your Mac with a cable,

01:01:12   and then you were launching an old program

01:01:14   from the Mac OS utilities folder

01:01:16   to try to take data off of your iPhone over a wire.

01:01:20   Apple could not give less of a shit about that,

01:01:23   so it's never tested.

01:01:24   - And I think you're probably right,

01:01:26   and that's just really too bad, right?

01:01:28   And maybe the problem is me,

01:01:31   maybe the problem is Casey again,

01:01:32   in that maybe I just need to accept iCloud Photo Library,

01:01:36   but for reasons that are not interesting

01:01:38   and that I don't care to explain,

01:01:39   I'm not all in on iCloud Photo Library.

01:01:42   And because in the past, it was always fine,

01:01:46   because I would have to remember to pull things off my phone,

01:01:48   but no big deal.

01:01:49   That it worked every time.

01:01:51   100% of the time, it worked every time.

01:01:53   Now, 60% of the time, it works every time.

01:01:56   That's also a reference, John.

01:01:58   So anyway, I found myself--

01:02:01   and I think I made the same speech, again,

01:02:03   like six months ago--

01:02:04   I found myself just more and more annoyed

01:02:08   that things that used to reliably work don't work anymore.

01:02:12   And it was such a whiplash because in the same day or two window, I've just head over

01:02:19   heels fallen in love with this MacBook Adorable and thought to myself, "You know what?

01:02:24   Even though I'm not the kind of person to buy computers hourly like Marco, I will probably

01:02:30   get a new Adorable whenever it's refreshed because I want more of this Adorable.

01:02:36   I want more speed.

01:02:37   I want more ports, and if they don't give me more ports,

01:02:39   that's fine, but if they give me more speed, that's great.

01:02:41   - The adorable fans have to buy every one,

01:02:43   because each one is barely usable, so any improvements,

01:02:46   like, oh my god, please!

01:02:48   - It's not that bad, but I understand your point.

01:02:49   I understand your point.

01:02:52   So, I go from just being overjoyed by this adorable,

01:02:56   and generally speaking, I'm pretty overjoyed

01:02:58   with my iPhone 10, and then I just see these software issues

01:03:02   that are just depressing and disheartening,

01:03:06   "pressing" may not be the right word, but just disheartening. And it makes me just

01:03:09   feel like, you know, it's like that throw your hands in the air, and don't

01:03:13   wave them like you don't care, because you do care. You just throw your hands in the

01:03:15   air and then plop them down on the desk and you're just like, "Well, now what? Now what do I

01:03:20   do?" Because I'm just screwed. I mean, where am I gonna go? And it's a rhetorical

01:03:24   question, and I don't think we need to answer it, but it's just frustrating

01:03:27   because it used to be this was my happy place. And maybe the problem is

01:03:31   that I'm clinging to the Mac and the Mac is dead. Again, we don't need to go

01:03:34   there, we spent so much time there, it's not even worth it, plus I don't want to give Federico

01:03:37   and Mike the pleasure, but one way or another, I don't know where the issue is, if it's me,

01:03:42   if it's the Mac, if it's Apple, if it's software, if it's hardware.

01:03:45   Well, you do know where it is in this case, like you just said, your photos work well

01:03:48   as a little bit old, right?

01:03:50   And so, and like Marco said, you are exercising code paths that are not popular anymore with

01:03:57   most other people.

01:03:58   So they're going to be abandoned, not tested as much, so you're keeping your habits, "Hey,

01:04:03   I use image capture, this is how I do my photos, this is just the way I like to do it.

01:04:07   And time marches on, and everyone else has different photo workflows that do not exercise

01:04:12   this code path at all.

01:04:14   It's kind of like if you, you know, I manually arrange my music, I don't want to use iTunes.

01:04:18   I manually arrange it and I play the stuff manually from the finder.

01:04:21   It's like, you can keep doing that for a long time, but once everyone starts using iTunes,

01:04:24   it's hard to swim against that tide.

01:04:25   You know, like, oh, now they sell music and I'm not forced to use iTunes, it's the only

01:04:28   way I can buy music is they can play the fair play DRM.

01:04:30   Like, how long can you keep doing it the one old way that you did it?

01:04:34   You can keep doing it the one old way forever if you never update anything else about your

01:04:37   computing life, right?

01:04:39   But, you know, it's hard to hold on to that.

01:04:41   So it's like, you know, you're using third-party software that fewer and fewer people are using

01:04:47   for the task you're using it for, and you're asking more and more of it because you're

01:04:52   taking more bigger, more complicated pictures in different formats, right?

01:04:56   So it's not, you know, I'm not saying you're doing anything particularly wrong, but it's

01:04:59   explicable, right?

01:05:00   And I think it's inevitable in situations where you're like that.

01:05:04   We all have computer habits that are like that.

01:05:06   We're like, "I'm just going to keep doing it this way until I can't do it anymore."

01:05:08   I think you may be approaching the "until you can't do it anymore" thing, because unless

01:05:13   you're going to write the Mac app yourself to handle this, which you were just entertaining

01:05:16   the idea of doing, probably there's not a big market for other people to write Mac applications

01:05:21   to support these kind of workflows.

01:05:24   So as I think we have all done at various points, there comes a time where you say,

01:05:29   I will give in and try whatever everyone else is doing.

01:05:33   Try the iCloud photo library.

01:05:35   Try Google photos.

01:05:36   Try – get back on the code path that is being actively developed that has lots of

01:05:41   people using it and if it breaks spectacularly at least you'll be suffering along with

01:05:44   millions of other people who will cause the thing to be fixed.

01:05:47   Whereas here you are just screaming into the void about a very high number negative error

01:05:53   code from image capture.

01:05:55   And by the way, I put a link in our notes for the good old days of negative numbers

01:06:01   and error messages on the Mac, when most of them were singular double digits.

01:06:05   Before we got into negative 9,478, we had good old negative 27, and it was like a good

01:06:10   friend.

01:06:11   And then you'd have to turn your computer off and back on again.

01:06:13   No memory protection.

01:06:14   So, I agree with everything you said, but with one small correction.

01:06:19   The pieces of this workflow that are falling down right now that I was complaining about

01:06:25   a moment ago, that was all first party.

01:06:26   You had said third party, maybe that was accidental,

01:06:28   but this is image capture, which is first party using--

01:06:31   - Yeah, it was like Marco said,

01:06:33   you're digging something out of like,

01:06:34   is that a utilities folder?

01:06:35   But anyway, yes, it is first party.

01:06:37   There's lots of applications that come with the Mac

01:06:39   that haven't been touched in forever,

01:06:40   and that if they stop working, who's gonna notice?

01:06:43   Like, when's the last time you launched

01:06:44   the chess application, does that still work?

01:06:46   Are there bugs in the chess application?

01:06:47   I don't know.

01:06:48   - Also, like, the conditions that this is operating

01:06:50   in are changing, like, now that iCloud Photo Library

01:06:53   is on phones and that photo management is kind of

01:06:55   automatic and managed on the device,

01:06:58   the interface to interface capture,

01:07:00   like exposing a DCIM folder and exposing photos

01:07:03   like through a virtual file system on the phone

01:07:07   that the computer can just copy off of,

01:07:09   I think that's all simulated at this point.

01:07:11   It's different, it's all weird now

01:07:13   because iCloud Photo Library messes with

01:07:16   what photos are actually on the phone

01:07:18   and what control you have over that

01:07:19   and if things try to access them, weird things might happen.

01:07:22   So it's probably running into something is different now

01:07:25   with that versus with maybe the HEIC and HEIF changeover

01:07:29   and not to mention the High Sierra appears

01:07:34   that nothing has been tested at all in the entire OS ever.

01:07:38   So it's a combination of all these things.

01:07:40   Yeah, one of those things is going to make

01:07:43   your incredibly low priority use case not work.

01:07:46   But this is not an excuse, this is probably just the reason.

01:07:51   Ultimately, this is like, I totally share,

01:07:54   I think, your disappointment here.

01:07:56   It's like, clearly, both the hardware and the software

01:08:00   on the Mac were really being neglected

01:08:02   for a few bad years there.

01:08:04   It seems like they have righted or are righting the ship

01:08:08   on the hardware side, but the software side,

01:08:12   I don't see any sign of that.

01:08:14   And that's, so like, we're just gonna keep having

01:08:17   more and more embarrassing, disheartening,

01:08:20   illustrious releases where it seems like

01:08:23   more gets broken than gets fixed.

01:08:26   That's my concern and I hope that doesn't come to pass,

01:08:29   but so far that is what's happening.

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01:10:19   (jazzy music)

01:10:21   - Is there something happy for us to talk about?

01:10:25   - Well, hmm, there actually is.

01:10:27   Let me, I was saving this, but.

01:10:30   - Well, do you wanna do Ask ATP?

01:10:33   That's always pretty happy.

01:10:34   - Yes, let's do Ask ATP,

01:10:35   and then I have an after show gift for you, Casey,

01:10:38   to celebrate your new baby.

01:10:39   another baby? No, it's literally, it is a gift for Casey. You'll see. Alright, let's

01:10:45   do Ask ATP. If we're talking about the Mac Pro, I'm hanging up. We're not. First of all,

01:10:50   part one of the gift is we're not talking about the Mac Pro. Alright, fair enough. Alright,

01:10:53   starting with Ask ATP, Eric Berlin writes, "Do you expect the release of the iMac Pro

01:10:58   will slow the update cadence of the non-Pro iMac? For example, would Apple hold back a

01:11:04   six-core Coffee Lake iMac configuration in 2018 because it would outperform the eight-core

01:11:09   Xeon W configuration in the current Mac Pro.

01:11:12   It's an interesting question.

01:11:14   I would think that it would not slow things down because they're serving different purposes

01:11:21   and maybe single core is way better on the non-Pro iMac, but presumably multi-core will

01:11:28   always be way, way, way, way, way better on the iMac Pro.

01:11:32   So I don't think this would be the case,

01:11:34   but I am not terribly confident in my guess here.

01:11:37   Marco, what do you think? - I am terribly confident.

01:11:39   (laughing)

01:11:41   - To me, it's no question.

01:11:42   The iMac Pro, they're not going to hold back

01:11:46   new releases of the regular iMac that outpace

01:11:50   or come close to the iMac Pro's performance in certain ways

01:11:55   due to the progress of the consumer CPUs

01:11:57   versus the progress of the Xeons.

01:11:58   I know this-- - 'Cause they already have 'em.

01:11:59   - Yeah, I know this because not only

01:12:02   is the current iMac faster in single core

01:12:05   than most of the iMac Pro configurations.

01:12:06   - And it will always be, almost.

01:12:08   - Yeah, but also, they already did it once.

01:12:10   The 2013 Mac Pro cylinder that came out

01:12:13   was bested seven months later, or eight months later,

01:12:17   when the iMac 5K came out, and those processors

01:12:19   were faster than in single core.

01:12:21   So they've already done this in the past.

01:12:24   It is currently the case.

01:12:26   They don't let that control them at all.

01:12:28   Apple is confident enough,

01:12:30   and neglectful enough for the Mac Pro.

01:12:32   But they, they are--

01:12:33   - That part helped.

01:12:34   - It's a combination of, you know,

01:12:35   they know that like, iMac Pro buyers

01:12:38   are not going to not buy the iMac Pro in meaningful numbers

01:12:42   because the newest iMac is now slightly faster

01:12:46   in single-threaded tasks.

01:12:47   That's not a major factor for most Pro buyers.

01:12:52   Also, I don't think Apple would care,

01:12:53   and also they, you know,

01:12:57   They would never hold back the release plans of consumer lines in order to favor a Mac

01:13:06   Pro line.

01:13:07   They don't care enough about the Mac Pro to do that most of the time.

01:13:10   - Yeah, and if they had to wait on Xeon timelines, they would never update anything.

01:13:13   It would be ridiculous.

01:13:14   Part of this is Intel, but honestly, the single core differences, it's good for bragging rights

01:13:21   and benchmarks.

01:13:22   You're a few percentage faster.

01:13:24   The multi-core difference when you have 18 cores for a good parallel thing is you're

01:13:29   many times faster.

01:13:31   So it's a difference of minor percentages in bragging rights versus a fundamental change

01:13:38   in your workflow.

01:13:39   Like, if I can do this three times faster, that's why you buy a Pro Mac.

01:13:44   If you want fastest single-core performance, Apple sells you one of those.

01:13:47   Like if that's what you want, like you have some task that you can't make multithreaded

01:13:51   and you want the absolute fastest machine you can do it, Apple will sell you one, but

01:13:56   it's going to make a change in your life that is in single or double digit percentages.

01:14:00   It's not going to be like 500% faster like it might be if you go from a low core count

01:14:07   on a low end iMac to 18 cores on the top end iMac Pro.

01:14:12   So honestly I don't think they really compete with each other.

01:14:15   Now it could be argued that for the people who just want everything all the time, which

01:14:19   we've been so conditioned to expect so little, we're not asking this, but yeah, you can take

01:14:25   one of those Intel CPUs that has the fastest single core performance and wedge it into

01:14:31   an iMac Pro if they make one of those that supports ECC RAM like the i9 or whatever or

01:14:35   something like that.

01:14:36   Like, you could say, "Why won't Apple sell me an iMac Pro with a low core count that

01:14:41   is just as fast as the iMac 5K?"

01:14:45   You know, like, I don't think, again, I don't think there's a demand for that.

01:14:48   Like if you want that, buy a 5K iMac because it's not appreciably different.

01:14:55   You're not getting the big multi-core performance.

01:14:57   The reason it's so fast and single-core is because, well, it's not the Xeon line, so

01:15:02   it's revved more, and because you can go faster when you don't have so many damn cores shoved

01:15:05   inside there.

01:15:06   So it's a long way of answering Eric's question to say they won't hold it back.

01:15:12   Don't worry.

01:15:13   They might not ship new iMacs for other reasons, but believe me, it's not because they're afraid

01:15:17   of stomping on their Pro Max.

01:15:19   All right, Andy Hume writes, "What are John's plans for his cheese grater after he replaces

01:15:24   it?

01:15:25   Sell it?

01:15:26   Donate it to the Hackett collection?"

01:15:27   And I'm going to add my guess, which is it'll go in your attic, never to be seen again.

01:15:31   Yeah, I had a collection before Hackett was in short pants.

01:15:36   Wow.

01:15:37   A giant collection of stuff in my attic that's probably worth remembering.

01:15:41   But I have a half of mine to answer this literally because I actually do have plans for and collections

01:15:49   of actual cheese graters.

01:15:51   Because Oxo used to make a cheese grater that I used to grate parmesan cheese.

01:16:00   There was the one hard cheese grater that I found ergonomically satisfying.

01:16:06   And they stopped making it.

01:16:08   They stopped making it because it had a design flaw.

01:16:11   It had this flappy plastic part of it that would eventually crack.

01:16:16   So I kind of understand why they stopped making it, because it would last a couple years and

01:16:21   then that thing would crack.

01:16:22   So it's like, "Oh, we need to go back to the drawing board," because yeah, this thing is

01:16:25   great, but eventually it cracks.

01:16:27   And the one they replaced it with is terrible.

01:16:30   It is ergonomically bad.

01:16:32   You don't get as much mechanical advantage when compressing the cheese against the grating

01:16:38   part that turns or whatever.

01:16:40   I continue to wish and hope for and have many times thought about trying to tinker my way

01:16:45   into an electric powered one of these because it is difficult to do and tiring and kind

01:16:50   of tedious, if you use as much Parmesan cheese as I do, to constantly have to be grating

01:16:55   it by hand.

01:16:57   You can't really use a food processor or any other things for a variety of other reasons.

01:17:00   You kind of need something that's slow, high torque.

01:17:02   Anyway, I've thought about it a little bit.

01:17:03   But in the meantime, these OXO cheese graters

01:17:05   they don't make anymore.

01:17:07   I think either I or my wife or some combination,

01:17:10   like we waited too long.

01:17:12   We realized, we went to like buy a new one

01:17:14   after one of ours cracked and we're like,

01:17:15   we can't find it anymore.

01:17:16   What happened to it when you found it?

01:17:17   It was discontinued.

01:17:18   And we tried a bunch of other ones and they all sucked.

01:17:20   And it was like, we need to, there's no,

01:17:21   we need to just find every one of these things

01:17:24   that's still for sale.

01:17:24   So I have like a collection of three of them,

01:17:26   I think, in the basement.

01:17:27   My current one is slowly cracking upstairs

01:17:29   in my kitchen right now.

01:17:31   And when I go through those three,

01:17:32   like I don't know what I'm gonna do.

01:17:33   Maybe at that point it's time for me

01:17:35   to build my electric powered one.

01:17:38   But anyway, my plans for my cheese graters are grim.

01:17:40   Like I don't know what I'm gonna do

01:17:41   after I go through all three of them.

01:17:43   But my plan on my Mac Pro is it will go into my attic

01:17:46   alongside its brethren.

01:17:47   Surely it will because this is one of my champion Macs

01:17:50   of all times.

01:17:51   It will have a place of honor next to my SE30.

01:17:53   Wow.

01:17:55   - I never in a million years did I think that

01:17:59   that was where this question was going to end up.

01:18:02   And this is one of the reasons I love this show so damn much

01:18:06   is because that's where we ended up.

01:18:09   Alrighty, and finally, in our diversion into Ask ATP

01:18:13   that's going to make us happy again,

01:18:15   Kurt asks, "Hey, remember messages in iCloud?"

01:18:18   Womp, womp.

01:18:19   - Is this my question?

01:18:21   Like, what's the question?

01:18:22   Yeah, honestly, I almost forgot about it,

01:18:24   but like, yeah, there's no, look, there's no news here.

01:18:28   They announced it, it isn't here, you know.

01:18:31   It probably got delayed until the next OS release.

01:18:34   Oh well.

01:18:35   - I'm not oh well because that was one of the features

01:18:36   I was most looking forward to.

01:18:37   - Oh yeah, I wanted it. - I had it actually,

01:18:38   I had it actually as a topic in the list for a long time

01:18:40   and it kept getting pushed down.

01:18:41   And I wanna say to this question, yeah, I remember it.

01:18:46   I was looking forward to it.

01:18:48   Every time I go to messages and I see a different collection

01:18:50   of messages and a different conversation contents

01:18:53   on my Mac and on my phone that are like sitting two feet

01:18:55   from each other, I think why does this have to be this way?

01:18:58   So I really hope, fine, if it's not done, by all means,

01:19:01   wait until it's done, right?

01:19:02   But I really, really hope

01:19:04   that this feature appears eventually.

01:19:06   - Yeah, me too.

01:19:08   There's a reason why it got a noticeable applause

01:19:11   during the keynote where it was announced last summer.

01:19:13   But it's the kind of thing,

01:19:15   look, if it's not done, don't chip it.

01:19:17   If it's unreliable or if it's broken,

01:19:20   the system we have now is already unreliable and broken.

01:19:22   We don't need it to be broken in new ways.

01:19:24   Let's wait until it works right and then chip it.

01:19:26   I'd rather have it late than wrong.

01:19:31   Well, thanks to our sponsors this week,

01:19:32   Squarespace, Hullo, and RXBar,

01:19:35   and we will see you next week.

01:19:38   (upbeat music)

01:19:40   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

01:19:43   ♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

01:19:45   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:19:47   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:19:48   ♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪

01:19:50   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:19:51   ♪ John didn't do any research ♪

01:19:53   ♪ Marco and Casey wouldn't let him ♪

01:19:56   'Cause it was accidental (accidental)

01:19:58   It was accidental (accidental)

01:20:01   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

01:20:06   And if you're into Twitter

01:20:09   You can follow them

01:20:11   @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

01:20:15   So that's Casey Liss

01:20:17   M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:20:20   A-N-T-M-A-R-C-O-R-M-N

01:20:22   S-I-R-A-C

01:20:25   ♪ USIC recuser, it's accidental ♪

01:20:29   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:20:31   ♪ They didn't mean to ♪

01:20:33   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:20:34   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:20:35   ♪ Tech podcast, so long ♪

01:20:39   - So Casey, I have a gift for you.

01:20:43   - Okay.

01:20:44   - I was wondering where, whether to keep this secret,

01:20:48   how long to keep this secret,

01:20:50   but at some point the secret is going to fall out,

01:20:53   so I figured I might as well come clean with you now.

01:20:56   - Oh my God, I think he fired you.

01:20:58   (laughing)

01:21:00   He somehow got you fired from your job, that's his gift.

01:21:02   - That's it, yeah, yeah.

01:21:03   I wrote a note as you to your boss,

01:21:05   filled with profanity.

01:21:08   - Oh, that would be for me, so that doesn't make sense.

01:21:10   - Yeah, actually. (laughing)

01:21:13   Yeah, so my gift to you is revealing the secret.

01:21:17   Tiff got me a vinyl player for Christmas.

01:21:21   A vinyl player.

01:21:24   Is that what you think they're called?

01:21:25   Oh my god.

01:21:26   You might need to look at the box again.

01:21:27   Oh, a turntable.

01:21:28   Oh my god.

01:21:29   They're definitely not called vinyl players, I can tell you that.

01:21:32   This is the best.

01:21:33   This is the best moment of my life right now.

01:21:36   Yeah.

01:21:37   I figured you could use a gift after your probably sleepless week.

01:21:40   Alright, so can you give me context for this?

01:21:44   Like is she buying it for you as a joke?

01:21:47   Is it something that you mentioned you wanted?

01:21:48   Is it something that she wanted and is passing it off as a gift to you but really she wants

01:21:53   it?

01:21:54   Is this her bowling ball?

01:21:56   So we've had the Hello Internet episode of vinyl sitting on the floor of my office for

01:22:03   like two years or however long it's been since it came out.

01:22:06   Does she know she can make a player out of a cone of paper and a needle?

01:22:11   I did not know that actually.

01:22:12   I guess that makes sense.

01:22:13   Yeah, yeah.

01:22:14   Anyway.

01:22:15   - She got me a turntable so that we could play

01:22:19   the Hello Internet vinyl.

01:22:21   - I have a turntable and I have that particular record.

01:22:25   - No spoilers, we haven't played it yet.

01:22:27   - No, I haven't either.

01:22:28   I've had it for forever and I still haven't had

01:22:30   a chance to play it, so I'm right there with you.

01:22:31   But that's awesome.

01:22:33   So I need to start sending you actual good music

01:22:37   and thus not fish post-haste.

01:22:39   - Well, and she also got me a fish album.

01:22:41   She got me a live one, which is great.

01:22:44   - Giveth and taketh away.

01:22:46   (laughing)

01:22:48   - So I actually decided, you know,

01:22:51   'cause also over the holidays,

01:22:54   we visited Mike and Adina, and they had a turntable,

01:22:58   and they were playing music on it

01:23:01   during our entire meal there,

01:23:04   and it was really nice to just kinda be hanging out

01:23:09   and to have music playing.

01:23:10   Now--

01:23:10   - You can't do that without vinyl, that's for sure.

01:23:13   - Right, and so it was nice though,

01:23:16   and so I figured, okay, let's, I'll try this on.

01:23:19   Like, you know, it's like trying on a new style of hat

01:23:22   or something, it's like, here's something that like,

01:23:25   the hit people are doing, I don't know if this is my thing,

01:23:29   but I'll try it on, you know, and so I tried it on,

01:23:32   and so I have a couple of albums, you know,

01:23:35   also by the way, boy do I suck at buying vinyl.

01:23:40   There's a lot of albums that are available on vinyl,

01:23:43   with modern albums, besides the ones that were

01:23:45   originally issued on vinyl in the 60s and stuff.

01:23:48   But there's a lot of modern albums and reissues

01:23:52   from the 90s and stuff that have been reissued now

01:23:55   on vinyl now that it's a growth business

01:23:57   that you can charge people $25 for the same album

01:24:00   they bought 20 years ago.

01:24:01   Most of them that I have found,

01:24:04   about half of the ones I have found,

01:24:06   I have accidentally bought them where it's like

01:24:08   they split what was one CD onto two records.

01:24:12   And so each side of each record has three or two songs on it

01:24:19   followed by this giant wide strip of black silence

01:24:23   in the middle.

01:24:25   - Oh, Marco.

01:24:25   - Didn't you have a record player as a kid, though?

01:24:27   - Yes, so this is, like, I know how to use them.

01:24:30   - You don't remember, like, you don't remember

01:24:32   one of the things about CDs being its capacity

01:24:35   for, like, how many minutes of audio you can have on it

01:24:38   with the compromises about the inner and outer tracks,

01:24:40   like that those things were gone,

01:24:42   like that was one of the innovations of CDs.

01:24:44   - Oh my God, I just figured it out.

01:24:46   Yeah, 'cause the outer tracks will rotate more

01:24:49   so they'll have more fidelity.

01:24:50   Oh, that's why they do it.

01:24:52   - Vinyl is a (beep) show.

01:24:53   - Oh, that's those (beep)

01:24:55   All right.

01:24:56   - Did you just say vinyl is a (beep) show?

01:24:58   - It is.

01:24:59   - I was trying to think of a way to say it without cursing,

01:25:01   but I just said it's the after show, whatever.

01:25:03   - So like, so let me tell you my annoyances first,

01:25:06   then I'll get into some things I actually like about it.

01:25:09   Yeah, so many, I bought albums thinking like,

01:25:13   oh, I love this album, it's good,

01:25:15   'cause my criteria is obviously things

01:25:18   that I want to play out loud with other people around

01:25:23   that I wouldn't be embarrassed by,

01:25:24   the whole album has to be good all the way through

01:25:27   'cause skipping songs is not really an easy thing.

01:25:29   - Oh, it's not bad.

01:25:30   I understand your point, but it's not bad.

01:25:32   - So anyway, and I had to get a photo preamp,

01:25:35   So I got of course the one from (bleep)

01:25:38   - I forget it out.

01:25:38   All right, this record player is just a way for Marco

01:25:40   to buy more amps and other German boxes with vulgar names.

01:25:44   - One box, a phono preamp,

01:25:46   because the turntable did not have a built-in preamp.

01:25:48   Okay, so first of all, I'm like,

01:25:50   I kind of set everything up,

01:25:52   and there's just constant low-level noise

01:25:56   coming out of the speaker,

01:25:57   and I'm like, well, something's wrong.

01:25:59   - Feels warm, doesn't it?

01:26:00   - Yeah, so it's like, I got a ground loop isolator.

01:26:03   I tried that.

01:26:04   like a power isolating brick.

01:26:05   I tried different cables in case the cables

01:26:08   were introducing interference.

01:26:09   Everything's analog, so everything can introduce

01:26:11   interference in an all analog signal path.

01:26:14   Tried lots of things, isolated lots of things,

01:26:16   and it turns out, yeah, that's just the noise floor

01:26:18   of this cartridge or whatever.

01:26:20   There's no, it isn't a ground loop.

01:26:22   It isn't electrical interference.

01:26:24   It's just like, yeah, just the noise floor isn't that low.

01:26:28   (laughs)

01:26:30   And definitely, my least favorite thing about playing them

01:26:35   is how often you have to flip it over,

01:26:39   because each side holds, I think, a maximum

01:26:41   of something like 22 minutes or 20 minutes,

01:26:43   something like that.

01:26:44   Do you know the exact number, Jon?

01:26:45   - No, I don't remember from my youth,

01:26:47   but I surely do remember flipping.

01:26:49   - Yeah, exactly.

01:26:50   So you have to flip 'em every four or five songs, basically,

01:26:53   unless you have one of these stupid audio file ones

01:26:57   that I accidentally bought,

01:26:58   where it's like you take one album, split it onto four,

01:27:00   and you're gonna flip it every two songs.

01:27:02   Thanks a lot.

01:27:04   Anyway, I will say in this endeavor,

01:27:08   there are things that I unexpectedly like about it.

01:27:12   The best metaphor I've come up with for this is

01:27:18   it's kind of like a Kindle is for reading.

01:27:21   Like, a Kindle does not look as good

01:27:25   as an iPad or a printed page.

01:27:27   Like the resolution of the text is nowhere near it,

01:27:30   even on the new Kindles with the higher resolution screens,

01:27:32   it's nowhere close to either print

01:27:34   or even retina screens on an iPad Pro.

01:27:36   Like a Kindle by all accounts looks worse.

01:27:40   It also does less and functions worse in a number of ways

01:27:45   than other ways to read books.

01:27:47   But the appeal of Kindles is that they can do nothing else.

01:27:53   So it kind of helps you appreciate the book more

01:27:58   that if you're using this device to read books,

01:28:02   that's all you're doing.

01:28:04   You kind of have to put some effort into it.

01:28:07   That's all you're doing.

01:28:08   It's not going to ever do anything else.

01:28:09   It's very simple, et cetera.

01:28:11   Playing music on vinyl is a pain in the (bleep)

01:28:16   but it's a way to deliberately sit down

01:28:21   and choose to enjoy an album.

01:28:24   And this works especially for me

01:28:26   because I've always been an album listener.

01:28:29   Even when I listen to MP3s and everything,

01:28:32   I don't listen on Shuffle to my whole collection or anything

01:28:34   I don't make playlists, I listen to albums

01:28:37   all the way through.

01:28:38   That's how I've always listened for like the last 20 years.

01:28:41   Like that's just how I listen to music.

01:28:43   And I've joked to Tiff like,

01:28:44   "Oh, we could have just gotten a CD player."

01:28:45   (laughs)

01:28:46   Or like an iPod.

01:28:47   - I was gonna say, there are other devices you can buy

01:28:51   that only play music.

01:28:52   - I know, I know.

01:28:53   But I'm saying like, you know,

01:28:55   this is a pain in the (beep)

01:28:57   and it's a novelty and it's, you know,

01:29:00   I don't expect to be playing vinyl forever

01:29:02   and it doesn't sound better.

01:29:03   It sounds worse.

01:29:04   Notes will be worse.

01:29:04   You know, I'm not, my making fun of Casey in the past

01:29:09   on vinyl is that, you know,

01:29:10   I don't mind when people say they enjoy it more.

01:29:12   I do mind when people say it sounds better

01:29:13   'cause it doesn't and it can't and it never will.

01:29:16   But I do appreciate the activity of playing music on vinyl now in a way I didn't appreciate

01:29:26   before.

01:29:27   So that is my gift to you, Casey.

01:29:30   You need to get one of those—I don't know if they make these, but like, I don't know

01:29:33   what the best analogy is—but like, one of these things you use for like pets or animals,

01:29:36   where like, it looks like a record player, and you put a record on it, and you put the

01:29:41   little needle in, and you hear the little crackle, but then what actually happens is

01:29:45   behind the scenes it plays just you know a digital audio file that is exactly

01:29:50   equivalent to whatever record you put on there so you can get the audio quality

01:29:54   you want with all the other stuff that you want from it like so you get you get

01:29:58   all the ceremony of doing it held make the make the digital audio file stop and

01:30:01   make you flip the disk before it plays the next two tracks right I've actually

01:30:05   been scheming like I wonder if I could get a Raspberry Pi or something next to

01:30:09   the record player and just put an SD card in and have like have cheap SD

01:30:13   cards in the pocket of each vinyl cover and just like stick it in there.

01:30:18   Mm-hmm. The music. So you just, you just, what you just want to do is put a plastic

01:30:21   disc on something and drop a needle on it. That's what you want to happen. And then

01:30:24   you just want music to play. But the music doesn't have to come from that thing.

01:30:27   Yeah. It's, anyway.

01:30:29   Well, so you didn't, you didn't adequately explain to me, I guess it was, was it just

01:30:34   the Hello, Intern? And that's like literally it? Or just Tiff actually, was Tiff actually

01:30:38   convinced by the, the moon hipsters from London that this is a thing that you have to do to

01:30:42   regain your youth and coolness? I think some of both, certainly. And you know,

01:30:46   it's a cool thing. It's a really nicely designed object. Like, it's a nice

01:30:49   like hipster turntable. It's like this like, you know, minimal visual

01:30:53   design thing made of wood. Like, it's really nice looking. So, I think it's a

01:30:58   combination of all those things. Well, I'm very disappointed in you, Marco. Oh, yeah.

01:31:01   I'm very disappointed in Mike and Adina, but, you know, they're young. So, next

01:31:09   - I'll buy an SACD player maybe,

01:31:12   and I'll tell you how that goes.

01:31:13   - Oh no, I would not be, I would say, there you go.

01:31:16   Now you're on the right track.

01:31:17   You gotta get an Akimichi stereo,

01:31:18   and a Super Audio CD player, and what was the other one?

01:31:21   DVD audio, DVDA?

01:31:23   - Yeah, I think that's dead, I think SACD.

01:31:25   I mean, both formats never went.

01:31:26   - They still make SACD?

01:31:28   - Well, you can get, if you get a Sony Blu-ray player,

01:31:32   it will, they're almost all also SACD players.

01:31:35   So I could get a Sony 4K Blu,

01:31:37   'cause I was thinking like maybe I should get

01:31:38   a 4K Blu-ray player.

01:31:40   - There you go, 4K TV now.

01:31:41   - Yeah, exactly, so I could also--

01:31:43   - You can think of the ceremony of the Blu-ray

01:31:45   as you wait for Java to load the stupid menus.

01:31:47   That's all part of the ceremony, Marco.

01:31:48   (laughing)

01:31:49   - Oh, no worries.

01:31:50   - I'm very, I wanna be very clear here.

01:31:53   I don't give two craps about the ceremony.

01:31:55   I appreciate the idea of sitting down

01:31:59   to deliberately and only listen to music,

01:32:02   like to just enjoy the music that is playing

01:32:05   and not have it be part of a whole separate

01:32:09   like computing experience and multimedia device

01:32:12   and everything, like it's hard--

01:32:14   - You could just get a CD player.

01:32:15   I'm not convinced you don't care about the ceremony.

01:32:19   - I don't care about the ceremony.

01:32:20   - I'm not convinced.

01:32:21   - And just give me a few more days of flipping these disks

01:32:24   and believe me, I--

01:32:25   (laughing)

01:32:27   - You know what else you can do with records

01:32:28   that you might remember from your youth?

01:32:29   They shatter real good when you have fights with them.

01:32:31   (laughing)

01:32:32   - Well it's also, it's kinda cool too,

01:32:34   First of all, like the services,

01:32:36   like I've been buying most of them on Amazon,

01:32:40   the ones that are still in print at least.

01:32:42   And it's cool 'cause like they include a digital copy.

01:32:46   If you buy vinyl on Amazon, it automatically adds

01:32:49   that album to your music collection.

01:32:51   - That is the most millennial hipster thing

01:32:53   I've ever heard in my life.

01:32:55   - Well, and so-- - You buy a record

01:32:57   and it comes with the--

01:32:58   - Yeah, oh yeah.

01:32:59   Some of the ones I've bought have the CD

01:33:02   in a paper sleeve inside the vinyl.

01:33:04   Like it comes with a free CD. - What?

01:33:05   I've never seen that.

01:33:07   - Yeah, I think the Nickel Creek one I bought,

01:33:09   I think has that.

01:33:10   - Oh, great band, great, great band.

01:33:11   - I know, yeah. (laughs)

01:33:13   If you buy the one with the corn song,

01:33:16   the Elephant in the Corn, whatever,

01:33:17   the album that has that on it, it comes with that.

01:33:20   - You know how they make like USB thumb drives

01:33:23   out of all sorts of things,

01:33:24   and they need to come out with a vinyl album

01:33:28   that is itself actually an SD card.

01:33:30   Like it's an SD card with a huge circular grooved handle.

01:33:34   That is a record, but really this is a giant SD card.

01:33:38   - Yeah, so anyway, yeah, and it's,

01:33:41   I again, it's, I know it's ridiculous,

01:33:44   and it does not sound better,

01:33:47   and it's a bit of a pain in the ass,

01:33:48   but it is kind of fun.

01:33:49   I also, I kind of like having the giant album art.

01:33:53   (laughing)

01:33:53   Like, this is like the original album art.

01:33:56   - That's what you should be buying.

01:33:57   You should just be buying record sleeves

01:33:58   and putting them on your wall is art.

01:34:01   Don't listen to them, look at them.

01:34:02   - That's actually not a bad idea.

01:34:03   (laughs)

01:34:05   We'll get there.

01:34:05   - I used to have long boxes on my wall

01:34:07   when CDs came out as a replacement of like,

01:34:11   because I was kind of disappointed that album,

01:34:12   like the album art went away.

01:34:14   It's like, well, they got these long boxes,

01:34:15   so I guess it's all like, and then those went away too.

01:34:18   - Well, I for one am happy that you've discovered

01:34:21   that sometimes I say things that are not completely insane.

01:34:24   Turns out, I know it's weird, but it does happen.

01:34:28   - Look, it wasn't the same when you said it sounded better.

01:34:31   That was definitely insane.

01:34:32   It does not sound better.

01:34:33   - Well, I'm excited.

01:34:34   I applaud Tiff's purchase for you.

01:34:37   I applaud you realizing that something

01:34:40   I've known for most of my life and older,

01:34:44   people older than us have known for their entire lives,

01:34:47   basically, that hey, it's not so bad.

01:34:49   And you know what?

01:34:50   In the grand scheme of things,

01:34:51   as a man who likes wristwatches based out of 1812,

01:34:55   I'm not entirely surprised that you like

01:34:56   an audio playback system that is also based out of 1812.

01:35:01   So as time goes on and as you get older,

01:35:04   so does your technological preferences.

01:35:09   And so this is just the next step in the way.

01:35:11   Then you have a beard now, I mean,

01:35:12   you just need some flannel. - That's true,

01:35:13   I do have the beard.

01:35:14   - I mean, you're really getting clean.

01:35:16   You need flannel and skinny jeans

01:35:17   and you'll be full hipster.

01:35:19   - Yeah, I'm not actually skinny though, that's the problem.

01:35:22   - Does that matter?

01:35:22   - I'm not saying, you're trying to recapture your youth,

01:35:24   you're not actually in your youth.

01:35:26   (laughing)

01:35:27   - Oh, that is a good gif, though.

01:35:29   - Surprised gif.

01:35:30   - God damn it, Sean.

01:35:31   (beeping)