256: A Heroic Threshold for Pain


00:00:00   So we should start tonight with the sitrep situation report. It is Wednesday the 9th of January

00:00:05   It is about nine o'clock in the evening one true time zone and as of right now, I'm still here

00:00:12   But there is a 50/50 shot that I'm gonna have to run out of this episode in the middle of it

00:00:17   so this is going to be an adventure for all three and kind of four and I guess you could almost even say five of

00:00:22   us as

00:00:23   I might need to leave Aaron might need to go to the hospital and Sprigg may be here

00:00:28   I mean, it is actually—it is theoretically feasible, although I certainly don't hope

00:00:32   it's the case, that by the time this show stops recording, I could have needed to leave,

00:00:39   go to the hospital, and Aaron could hypothetically birth our second child before you two shut

00:00:44   up.

00:00:45   That could happen before you leave the house, let me tell you.

00:00:48   Let's not even go there.

00:00:49   Oh, God.

00:00:50   Do you want to tell that story?

00:00:51   Yeah, Jon, you have some experience with this.

00:00:53   And I don't think I've told that story at length on this podcast.

00:00:56   We don't need to do it today.

00:00:57   today.

00:00:58   [Music]

00:00:59   We should start with some follow-up though.

00:01:01   Let's talk about Meltdown, Spectre, and all the things that are happening.

00:01:06   My timeline's a little fuzzy because I've been a bit preoccupied, so we did have this

00:01:10   link from Apple during the last recording, right?

00:01:12   We did not.

00:01:13   With the official—oh, we did not.

00:01:14   Okay, I'm sorry.

00:01:15   They hadn't posted it yet.

00:01:16   You guys have been talking about the WebKit one?

00:01:18   No, no, no, no.

00:01:19   This is the original official—

00:01:20   Oh, okay.

00:01:21   Because the WebKit one is also excellent.

00:01:22   Yeah.

00:01:23   I didn't get a chance to read that.

00:01:24   I've been preoccupied.

00:01:25   If you have that link, put it in the notes.

00:01:27   I'll take it out.

00:01:28   I've already downloaded the update, but I didn't read the note for it.

00:01:31   It's nice that they released the Safari update for old OS.

00:01:34   I'm staring at El Cap right here, and I got the Safari update, which, I mean, that's another

00:01:39   complaint people have about the spectrum meltdown thing and how Apple is handling it.

00:01:43   They're like, "So, where is the kernel update for any version other than the very, very

00:01:48   latest version of Mac OS?"

00:01:50   That's not really how Apple rolls, which is kind of disappointing.

00:01:53   would hope that Apple would – there's one aspect that Apple should adopt a little

00:01:58   bit more of the enterprising mindset to say for super critical security things, maybe

00:02:04   consider backporting some number of versions instead of just saying, "No, the only thing

00:02:08   that exists is the very, very bleeding edge."

00:02:10   But, you know, Apple's going to Apple.

00:02:13   Apple is going to Apple.

00:02:14   All right.

00:02:15   So can you walk me through the official Apple statement, if you don't mind, Jon?

00:02:18   Oh, there's nothing much there.

00:02:19   It's just another one of these, you know, fairly straightforward explanations.

00:02:23   So the last time Apple didn't even have one and it was just – they were just a little

00:02:26   bit late in putting it out.

00:02:28   But it's not a super great explanation.

00:02:30   Lots of people have been sending links to explanations that help them understand what

00:02:36   this is all about.

00:02:38   Most of them I found to be not to my liking because – like it's a difference in audience.

00:02:44   It's like if you – if most of the words we said in the last show didn't make any sense

00:02:48   to you, you need a different kind of explanation.

00:02:51   So those people who need that kind of explanation are the ones reading articles where they compare

00:02:55   it to a waiter or to like music or a factory or all sorts of things that use analogies

00:03:05   to real-world things to try to explain to people how instruction pipelines work, what

00:03:11   speculative execution is, what branch prediction is, stuff like that.

00:03:14   And so it's been interesting to see the different variety of analogies and metaphors that are

00:03:19   used in those articles, but apparently a lot of them are really helping people understand

00:03:24   this in a way that, for example, our previous show would not have and did not.

00:03:28   So we apologize for that, but we're glad there's lots of good explainers out there for you.

00:03:33   I think the Raspberry Pi folks had one of the more popular, let's say, layperson's explanation

00:03:43   of it, with a great capper at the end where they say, after many, many paragraphs of laborious

00:03:48   And Raspberry Pi doesn't suffer this because we use CPUs that don't have speculative execution.

00:03:53   Which is not really something to brag about because that means they use cheap, very old,

00:03:57   very weak CPUs because Raspberry Pi is a small, cheap, low-powered thing.

00:04:04   But it's nice for them.

00:04:06   Let's see, what else has come out about this in the meantime?

00:04:11   Oh, the second link here in the same topic is this is the best webpage I've found showing

00:04:18   what the speed hit is on the Mac for the patches that

00:04:23   work around this.

00:04:25   And as always, it's not-- there's no clear cut answer.

00:04:29   So as the summary of this article says,

00:04:33   the main question to be answered is if the performance impact

00:04:36   exists.

00:04:36   Yes, it is very clear.

00:04:37   You can look at the graphs.

00:04:38   There's the performance impact.

00:04:40   Is it relevant?

00:04:41   It depends.

00:04:42   And that's the worst kind of answer.

00:04:43   What do you mean it depends?

00:04:44   It really totally depends on exactly what you're doing,

00:04:46   exactly how many system calls you're making.

00:04:48   Another interesting thing to come out of this article

00:04:51   is another measurement of the performance hit of APFS

00:04:54   versus HFS+, which they weren't intending to measure that,

00:04:58   but they sort of accidentally did

00:04:59   when they compared Sierra to High Sierra without the patch

00:05:03   to High Sierra with the patch.

00:05:04   The performance impact of APFS,

00:05:07   the negative performance impact of APFS, encrypted APFS,

00:05:11   far outweighs the impact of this security patch.

00:05:15   I don't know if we've talked about that before,

00:05:17   but APFS in general is slower than HFS+ in most

00:05:20   of the benchmarks, which I would think

00:05:22   is to be expected because HFS+ was a file system that

00:05:26   was tuned to be acceptably fast on a computer in 1989

00:05:30   or whatever.

00:05:31   So it's massively overmatched by the power we have now.

00:05:34   And APFS has way more features and is a way more modern file

00:05:37   system and so is not going to be as fast as something that used

00:05:41   to run really well on a Mac SE.

00:05:44   Hopefully APFS will get faster in the future, right?

00:05:46   But it's very new.

00:05:47   But it also, it just plain does more.

00:05:49   It has more features than HFS Plus and more safety.

00:05:52   - The Space Gray peripherals are selling

00:05:55   for hilarious prices on eBay.

00:05:58   The three of us were kind of giggling about the thought

00:06:00   that oh, since these are so rare,

00:06:01   that they may command, I mean probably will command

00:06:05   some amount of premium over what a regular device

00:06:07   would look like.

00:06:08   So quick refresher, the iMac Pro,

00:06:10   since it's that sexy Space Gray,

00:06:12   The peripherals also have to be sexy space gray, and by default you can order the computer

00:06:17   with a ten-key, what do you call it, full-size, so not a ten-key list, a full-size Bluetooth

00:06:24   Apple keyboard, and either a Magic Mouse or Magic Trackpad, or you can optionally, for

00:06:29   some amount of money, I don't remember how much, you can get both the trackpad and the

00:06:32   mouse.

00:06:33   These are only available if you buy a iMac Pro, so naturally they're very, very fancy

00:06:38   and special.

00:06:40   has dug up some eBay listings that if you're listening to this far in the future will probably

00:06:45   not be available, but a triplet of Magic Keyboard, Trackpad, and Mouse is not going for, went

00:06:53   as of yesterday for $1,080. So that's $1,000 for a trackpad, a keyboard, and a mouse. Oh,

00:07:00   and presumably a light, a bespoke lightning cable actually.

00:07:03   Oh, the black lightning cable, you include that, of course it puts it over the top.

00:07:07   Of course, of course.

00:07:08   - Lightning cable.

00:07:09   I refuse to believe these are real people.

00:07:11   These have to be speculators.

00:07:13   - But there's at least, if you search eBay sold items

00:07:17   for like space gray Magic Trackpad,

00:07:19   you get all these listings and it's, there's not--

00:07:21   - Oh yeah, no, that's why I put this in there

00:07:23   because we thought they wouldn't sell for that much

00:07:24   and they totally are selling for a lot of money.

00:07:26   The question is who are they selling to?

00:07:27   And that's the secondary thing is like,

00:07:29   so are real people actually putting this much stock in this

00:07:32   or is it speculation where people believe

00:07:35   that this will be a high ticket item for a long time.

00:07:39   I continue to believe that Apple will eventually,

00:07:42   that Apple will eventually allow you to buy peripherals

00:07:46   that are this color separately,

00:07:47   which will of course destroy the market for these things.

00:07:49   So I hope the people who bought them

00:07:50   are able to resell them at a profit before that happens.

00:07:53   But I don't know when that will happen, presumably.

00:07:56   - I mean, this is kind of like trying to be

00:07:57   like an iPhone speculator, like on, like,

00:07:59   the biggest market for these things is behind us

00:08:02   and it's going down every day, not up.

00:08:04   So anybody buying these for this price,

00:08:08   they're the worst speculators in the world.

00:08:09   (laughs)

00:08:11   These are only gonna get more common

00:08:13   and more available over time.

00:08:15   And they're really cool right now,

00:08:17   or really two weeks ago, because they're brand new

00:08:20   and no one's seen them before in these colors.

00:08:22   But that is a very temporary thing.

00:08:25   The window of time to make a profit there is very short.

00:08:28   - The only way it would work is if Apple never makes

00:08:31   another space gray computer with space gray vehicles.

00:08:33   the iMac Pro, like they continue to make the iMac Pro but it changes color and this was

00:08:37   like the only generation of these things, then you could have some value.

00:08:40   But just ask somebody, Stephen Hackett, with an Apple TV, not that one, no, no, not that

00:08:46   one, no the other one, no, not that one, the black, no, not this black one, the other other,

00:08:52   I don't know how to refer to the Apple TV.

00:08:54   It was a giant Macintosh computer that could also be a television, it was also hideous,

00:08:57   the other one was also black.

00:09:00   And that was it.

00:09:01   There wasn't like a huge collection of black desktop Macintosh computers surrounding that.

00:09:07   Even that doesn't retain its value that well.

00:09:08   So I mean, now you've got me convinced, now I'm starting to hope that these really are

00:09:14   individual people.

00:09:15   Because like if they're speculators, they're probably going to be disappointed.

00:09:19   But if they're individuals, maybe they're happy with their $1,000 purchase of a keyboard

00:09:23   and mouse.

00:09:24   And black Apple stickers.

00:09:27   We forgot about that.

00:09:28   You can get those at the Mac Pro, though.

00:09:29   Those are a dime a dozen.

00:09:30   trash can, you know, they'll throw in, buy some black stickers, they'll throw in a trash

00:09:33   can for free.

00:09:36   So regardless, as of the time of this recording, that full set went for $1,000.

00:09:41   A track pad is for sale for $310 or more, and a Magic Mouse is for sale for $295 or

00:09:48   more.

00:09:49   And really, while you guys were talking, it occurred to me that if Erin really and truly

00:09:54   loved me, she would go ahead and have this baby immediately, because I'm going to be

00:09:58   purchasing my full set from Underscore and he has told me that he will bring them down

00:10:02   when he comes to visit to meet Spriggs. So the quicker that she can pop this baby out,

00:10:06   the quicker I can get my fancy black peripherals. So really, this is all about me and that's

00:10:11   what she really needs to be considerate of.

00:10:13   I mean, there is a faster way to get them.

00:10:16   On eBay, you mean? You gotta wait for the auctions to end.

00:10:20   I believe it's Apple.com/imac-pro-buy or something like that?

00:10:23   Yeah, yeah. You got my old computer. Although it's only five times as expensive as the

00:10:28   peripherals by themselves.

00:10:29   That isn't that unreasonable.

00:10:30   Yeah. I already bought mine from Jason, by the way. I use the Apple Messages payment

00:10:37   thing. Is that the first time I used it? Maybe I sent Casey some money.

00:10:40   It is called Apple Pay Cash. And I have now sold two computers with it.

00:10:44   I remember. Anyway, mine is on my way to my keyboard, just the keyboard itself. I did

00:10:48   not pay $1,000.

00:10:51   Jason took pity on you.

00:10:52   And the answer, no, I'm not going to sell the keyboard.

00:10:54   It's not for sale.

00:10:56   - I just noticed today, I had,

00:10:58   a friend of mine had purchased for me

00:11:00   a couple of pieces of clothing

00:11:03   from the Apple Park Visitor Center,

00:11:05   and I paid him with Apple Pay Cash.

00:11:07   Apparently disclosed at some point that I'd forgotten,

00:11:10   or just not well disclosed,

00:11:11   that if you use a credit card for Apple Pay Cash,

00:11:14   there's a 3% service charge, which I was not aware of.

00:11:17   So this $50 transaction was like a $52 transaction.

00:11:21   Not a big deal, but it was very surprising

00:11:23   when I'm looking at my iMessage history

00:11:24   and seeing it was $50.20 or whatever the hell it was.

00:11:27   And then I'm looking at my bank statement

00:11:29   and saying it was $52, or again, whatever the numbers were.

00:11:32   And I did not expect that.

00:11:34   So pro tip, if you're going to be using Apple Pay Cash,

00:11:37   use a debit card.

00:11:38   - But did you get Frequent Flyer miles

00:11:40   or Amazon Prime points or cash back to offset that 3%?

00:11:43   - I will eventually get a smattering of cash back,

00:11:47   probably less than 3%.

00:11:48   - Yeah, but you're not gonna get 3%.

00:11:49   - Exactly.

00:11:50   - This is the entire rack of the credit card business.

00:11:53   It's like, they have these, I forget what are they called,

00:11:55   interchange fees, something like that,

00:11:57   which is part of that 3%.

00:11:58   And it's like--

00:12:00   - But usually the vendor pays it, not you.

00:12:01   - Yeah, there's no way to charge money to a credit card

00:12:05   without somebody paying a fee of at least around

00:12:08   2.5%, depending on their merchant deal and everything.

00:12:12   And so like, someone's paying that some way

00:12:14   refusing a credit card.

00:12:15   Debit cards are all different and don't work that way.

00:12:16   Bank transfers are different and don't work that way,

00:12:18   but credit cards all work that way.

00:12:20   Like someone is paying that fee.

00:12:22   John is right, usually it's the vendor.

00:12:24   In this case, it's like if you want the person

00:12:26   to receive this money, then you have to pay the fee.

00:12:30   If you want them to receive 50 bucks and not 47 or whatever,

00:12:33   you're paying 52 to give them 50.

00:12:35   But that's just the nature of credit cards

00:12:37   and sending money online.

00:12:39   - Yeah, I'm not disappointed by this,

00:12:41   or if I am, I'm disappointed in myself

00:12:43   for not having remembered,

00:12:44   but it was something that I did not expect.

00:12:46   So this is your PSA, ladies and gentlemen.

00:12:49   use a debit card if you can.

00:12:51   - Also note that the rewards that you're gonna get for that

00:12:53   are probably not exceeding about 1.5%.

00:12:57   It's, that would like, the really good rewards

00:13:00   end up being along the lines of 1.5%.

00:13:02   Anybody out there who thinks like,

00:13:03   oh I'll pay the surcharge for something,

00:13:06   but I'll get it back in rewards, no, you won't.

00:13:09   The house always wins.

00:13:11   - We had a couple of people write in

00:13:13   that are either ex-Apple geniuses or Apple geniuses,

00:13:17   And they made the same point, which was part of the reason that Apple geniuses tend to

00:13:23   be reluctant to do a battery replacement is that oftentimes that isn't really the problem.

00:13:31   You know, sometimes a slowdown or perhaps a really tough battery situation is because

00:13:37   you've been playing a shed load of Pokemon Go and you didn't disclose that when you were

00:13:41   talking to the genius.

00:13:43   And the easier answer, rather than either charging Apple money or charging the customer

00:13:47   money even more importantly is to just say, "Hey, maybe cool it on the catch and the

00:13:51   Pokemans. Maybe that'll do a little better for you." So that was an interesting point

00:13:56   I hadn't considered.

00:13:57   Yeah. Like you said, we got this feedback a lot and it's not like they're refusing to

00:14:04   do it for your own good. What they're trying to avoid is a situation where a customer comes

00:14:08   in and says, "I have a problem." And then a customer, and this must happen all the time,

00:14:12   the customer decides they know what the solution to the problem is. This isn't exclusive to

00:14:16   a battery, it's just whatever, anything. It could be your car or a vacuum cleaner or

00:14:20   whatever. Customer has a problem and customer says, "And by the way, I'm also sure I know

00:14:25   how to fix this problem. I want you to replace the belt on my whatever. I want you to give

00:14:30   me a new whatever." They have diagnosed the problem, they know exactly what's wrong, and

00:14:35   they just say, "Look, just don't give me a runaround. Just put a new battery in my car."

00:14:41   I mean, this is the market with these stupid electric cars. You know what I mean, the 12-volt

00:14:44   "I have one of those too."

00:14:47   Yeah, maybe the problem is like an engine control unit or maybe it's a gasket that's

00:14:52   blown over.

00:14:53   So the person who wants to look at your car says, "Let us, the car fixing experts, look

00:14:57   at your car and run all our little diagnostics and we'll tell you what's wrong with it."

00:15:00   But it's like, "No, no, no," the customer says, "I don't care what you find.

00:15:03   I know that this is exactly what I need."

00:15:05   And service centers or Apple or whatever are reluctant to do that because if they say,

00:15:10   will do it and they do it even if they do it for free but especially if they charge you to do it,

00:15:16   right? And then they give the thing back to you and say, "Okay, we did what you asked. We replaced

00:15:21   your whatever. Here you go." Then they come back the next day and said, "The problem is still there."

00:15:25   And now you have the argument, it's like, "Well, you know, we didn't say this would fix your

00:15:29   problem but you insisted we do this because you thought it would fix your problem but it turns

00:15:32   out it didn't." And that's a conversation you never want to have with the customer because they're

00:15:35   They're going to be like, "I don't care," blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

00:15:37   So what Apple wants to do is you, customer, just describe your problem and then we'll

00:15:41   figure out what it takes to fix it, whether that's give you a completely new device or

00:15:45   replace a bunch of parts or whatever it's going to be.

00:15:47   But if you come to us and demand we do a specific thing, especially if you demand we do it for

00:15:51   free under warranty, it could just be a waste of both of our times.

00:15:55   So that's all well and good.

00:15:56   And we've heard that from a lot of people and I know where they're coming from and sometimes

00:15:59   I know where customers are coming from because sometimes I'm that customer who says, "Look,

00:16:02   I just do this.

00:16:03   Like, just replace this thing.

00:16:05   I won't yell at you if it doesn't work, but I'm pretty sure this is it.

00:16:09   But my question to a couple of these Apple geniuses was, "Okay, fine, whatever."

00:16:13   Say somebody comes in like I did and says, "There's nothing wrong with my phone.

00:16:19   I don't actually have a problem.

00:16:20   All I want to do is give you money in exchange for that money.

00:16:24   You take out the battery that's in there and put in a new one."

00:16:27   And for the most part, the Apple geniuses said, "Yeah, we'll do that.

00:16:31   Like as long as we're all on the same page, that there's not an actual problem that we're

00:16:34   trying to solve.

00:16:35   Like there's no acknowledge problem at all, it's just a thing you want to happen.

00:16:39   Not going to do it under warranty for free if there's no problem obviously because that's

00:16:42   just wasteful.

00:16:43   And that was one angle that some people brought up is the waste of like if you have a perfectly

00:16:47   good battery, us replacing it even if you pass is not particularly environmentally conscious

00:16:52   because batteries are all filled with heavy metals and other things that are not great.

00:16:58   So why would you take a perfectly good battery and throw away and replace it with another

00:17:01   one?

00:17:02   So I kind of see that at an angle too, but in the end I feel like if someone comes in

00:17:06   with a wad of money, especially if it's $80 and not $30, and says, "My phone has no problems,

00:17:12   but please replace my battery, you should do so."

00:17:13   And like I said, I did that and they did replace it for me, but there was a weird pause about

00:17:17   it.

00:17:18   So it would be better if there was less mystery surrounding this process, and it would be

00:17:22   much better if more customers knew how accessible battery replacements are for their iOS devices.

00:17:29   Of course, this—or I should use past tense—how accessible they were, because the other strain

00:17:35   of feedback we got is from long-suffering Apple retail employees who are now in the

00:17:40   midst of what they described as a terrible situation where many, many angry customers

00:17:45   are coming to the stores wanting new batteries, and they don't have any new batteries, and

00:17:49   like a week long wait time and people are super angry and like, "I want my free battery!"

00:17:54   And the public understanding of this problem, as we predicted, is not very good. People

00:17:59   are just angry and just want either new batteries for free or new phones and they're even more

00:18:03   angry when you tell them that even if we could give you what you want, you have to wait a

00:18:08   week. So, bummer for Apple, but it's kind of their own deal.

00:18:13   This is kind of, it reminds me of the Takata, whatever it is, airbag recall because I got

00:18:18   a notice from my car, geez, I want to say like a year ago, maybe even more that, oh,

00:18:25   your airbag is screwed up and hey, it may kill you, but there's nothing we can do about

00:18:29   it right now because we don't have any. And it wasn't replaced until just a couple of

00:18:33   months back. That to me is a far more egregious issue in that if I got in an accident, the

00:18:41   airbag that's supposed to save my life might actually injure me. Whereas this is just,

00:18:45   "Oh, my phone isn't working as quickly as I want."

00:18:47   And man, I took a lot, I heard a lot of grumpy people

00:18:51   that were upset at me for not taking Apple behind the shed

00:18:56   and shooting it in the face or whatever,

00:18:58   because I was not extremely grumpy about this battery issue.

00:19:01   That analogy fell down as soon as I opened my mouth.

00:19:05   - Casey has interesting child discipline techniques.

00:19:07   (laughs)

00:19:08   - That fell down as soon as I opened my mouth,

00:19:10   but it was too late.

00:19:11   But anyway, we'll fix it in post.

00:19:13   The point I'm driving at though is there were a lot of people that were really grumpy,

00:19:16   I know we won't, that were really grumpy that I wasn't grumpy about this, you know, slow

00:19:20   down thing.

00:19:21   And I'm sorry, but like hey, I'm sorry if an older phone isn't as fast as it once was.

00:19:28   Like everyone needs to take a damn chill pill.

00:19:30   It's frustrating, yes, but holy cow, people are really worked up about this.

00:19:34   It's not an airbag, it's not a malfunctioning seatbelt, it's a telephone.

00:19:39   It'll be okay.

00:19:41   Speaking of cars and recalls, I had an annoying experience with my Honda recently.

00:19:44   They had some recall thing and I was, I think I was going in for regular service anyway

00:19:48   or maybe it was just encouraging me to go in.

00:19:50   But anyway, some recall, I'm like, "Fine, whatever.

00:19:51   Do my recall thing.

00:19:52   It's free.

00:19:53   Not a big deal."

00:19:54   It was like a battery.

00:19:55   It was one of those paranoid things where like if you get a bunch of salt on this battery

00:19:59   terminal it could potentially spark and do a blah, blah, blah and it's like, "That's

00:20:02   never going to happen.

00:20:03   Like, yes, there's salt everywhere but I'm not afraid my thing is going to explode.

00:20:07   I can see the battery.

00:20:08   It's sitting right there.

00:20:09   It's not in danger of spewing flame."

00:20:10   Anyway, whatever.

00:20:11   So, fine, they do some battery terminal, watch a mosey.

00:20:15   And I thought it was fine.

00:20:16   And then like two months later, I get another recall message.

00:20:19   I'm like, "Oh, I can ignore that.

00:20:20   I already did that recall."

00:20:21   And I'm like, "No, this is a different recall."

00:20:24   Like, for the same thing, for the battery terminal?

00:20:26   And my vague understanding of this, I was mostly just too annoyed to look into it very

00:20:30   deeply, was that the first recall was like a temporary patch where they just threw some

00:20:37   goop on something or sealed something up to prevent this potential sparking giant explosion

00:20:42   from the battery because they didn't have enough of the replacement part that they should

00:20:48   have replaced it with.

00:20:49   And the second recall is, "Hey, guess what?

00:20:51   We got the replacement parts now, so come back in and we'll get rid of that little temporary

00:20:55   fix we did and put in the replacement part."

00:20:56   I suppose it's nice that they would do two recalls for free, but as anyone with a car

00:21:00   knows, even more so than with phones and maybe equally so with an all-in-one computer, they

00:21:07   or like Marco's iMac, the worst part of any of these things

00:21:10   is having to go in to the dealer or having to go in at all.

00:21:14   Doesn't really matter what they do when they're there

00:21:16   or if it costs no money, the time and hassle

00:21:18   of just getting the car to the dealer

00:21:20   and waiting while they do whatever,

00:21:22   it's so much worse than any other aspect of the experience

00:21:25   that it almost doesn't matter what they do.

00:21:28   So you had to go to the dealer two times.

00:21:30   At least with the Apple thing, you only have to go once

00:21:33   unless I suppose you take a two hour drive to the mall

00:21:35   and get there and find out they tell you

00:21:36   that you have to come back in a week

00:21:38   when they have batteries in stock.

00:21:40   - Yeah, I've had similar issues with service issues

00:21:44   with Tesla, like they just are out of every part ever,

00:21:47   all the time, and like they had a battery,

00:21:50   they had a parking brake recall last summer.

00:21:53   I still haven't gotten it done.

00:21:55   I'm still waiting for them to call me

00:21:56   to tell me they have my part in.

00:21:57   Like I've called them like every like three months or so

00:21:59   to check on this. (laughs)

00:22:01   Like they still don't have anything.

00:22:01   - In the meantime, don't park on hills?

00:22:03   What did I tell you?

00:22:04   - Yeah, I don't know.

00:22:04   It was apparently a minor thing,

00:22:06   But like, I also ordered snow tires on,

00:22:10   in like early December sometime.

00:22:13   And when you order something from Tesla's online parts store

00:22:15   or something like that that like has to be installed

00:22:17   somehow, somewhere, what they do is they just deliver it

00:22:20   to your local service center and then they call you

00:22:23   or email you when it's ready and you set up an appointment

00:22:25   to get it installed.

00:22:27   So I ordered these snow tires in early December.

00:22:30   Time goes by, I got nothing.

00:22:31   I get no emails, there's no order status lookup page,

00:22:35   There's nothing, like, this is, it's like an online store

00:22:38   designed in 1992, like there's like,

00:22:40   it's the most bare bones thing ever.

00:22:42   You halfway expect to see a clear form button on the bottom,

00:22:45   like it's that bare bones.

00:22:47   So like, middle of last week, I'm like, you know,

00:22:50   it's snowing constantly, I really could use the snow tires,

00:22:53   where the heck are they?

00:22:55   And I still had nothing from Tesla,

00:22:56   and I got an email saying,

00:22:58   please rate your recent service experience at Tesla.

00:23:01   I was like, I didn't get any service recently.

00:23:05   I wonder if maybe their system just didn't send me

00:23:09   that email, screwed up in all these different ways,

00:23:11   but maybe it thought that them arriving

00:23:13   at the service center was a service visit

00:23:17   and generated that email.

00:23:19   So I called the service center, and sure enough,

00:23:20   they're like, "Oh yeah, we have 'em in now."

00:23:23   Like, oh, like-- - Wonderful.

00:23:24   - They've just been chillin' out.

00:23:25   - Thanks for tellin' me.

00:23:26   - They're the office mascot now, you're forcing no tires.

00:23:28   - Yeah, they're like, "Oh yeah, when do you wanna come

00:23:30   "and have 'em installed?"

00:23:31   "Yeah, thanks."

00:23:32   So yeah, I'm having them installed tomorrow.

00:23:33   - Since I have you.

00:23:33   It's like, yeah, it's like everything with Tesla service

00:23:36   and parts is a disaster, and just trying to get things

00:23:40   there and availability, everything's constantly backordered

00:23:43   and like the cars are so great, I'm so happy with the car,

00:23:47   but God, if you ever need to wait for a part,

00:23:49   it's not a good experience.

00:23:52   - Yeah, it's a bummer.

00:23:54   Right, so tell me about iPhone X screen burn-in.

00:23:58   - There's a question we had about the Apple source OLED phone.

00:24:01   OLED has burn-in issues, supposedly worse burn-in issues than LCD, but of course Android

00:24:08   phones that had OLED screens for a long time, so presumably it was a known quantity.

00:24:12   This is the first test I've seen of an actual iPhone X versus a couple of popular Android

00:24:17   phones with OLED screens for burn-in.

00:24:20   Unfortunately, it is all in, what are we going to say, is that Chinese, Korean?

00:24:25   I'm not good at looking at text and telling exactly what's on your—Korean, I usually

00:24:31   for the closed circles because there's this looks more Korean to me but I'm not

00:24:35   sure yeah Chinese and Japanese don't have the closed circles I think I'm gonna

00:24:38   find Japanese the best anyway all that is to say I don't know what it says

00:24:42   except what Google Translate tells me there's a YouTube video and an article

00:24:45   but the upshot of it appears to be that the iPhone 10 resisted burn in much much

00:24:51   better than the two other Android phones that they tested they they had it on

00:24:55   full brightness on the same image for like hundreds of hours to get very mild

00:24:58   burn-in. So it looks pretty good. Probably better than, like, say my iPad 3 or many other

00:25:05   past LCD iOS devices that I found suffered pretty severe image retention after a couple

00:25:11   of years. Obviously this iPhone X is newish. It's not a three-year-old iPhone X, but compared

00:25:15   to its... compared to a couple of contemporary phones, it looks like it's pretty good. So

00:25:19   I think Apple got a pretty good screen here.

00:25:22   Chat room says Korean.

00:25:23   Survey says...

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00:27:26   I do have a very quick, very quick review of my iMac Pro

00:27:33   after finally having a week of like real use.

00:27:36   In this week I have done lots of podcast editing,

00:27:39   I have done Xcode work, programming work with iOS apps,

00:27:43   with my one iOS app,

00:27:44   and I have also done a lot of video transcoding.

00:27:47   I ripped a couple of Blu-rays

00:27:49   and did some video transcoding work,

00:27:51   including some pretty heavy ones

00:27:53   I was trying to do H.265 and everything else.

00:27:56   I have yet to hear the fan spin up.

00:27:59   Like I have thrown everything I can at this CPU.

00:28:02   Granted I have done almost nothing to the GPU

00:28:04   'cause that's, you know, my workload is typically

00:28:06   very CPU heavy and pretty light on the GPU.

00:28:08   Oh, I also imported, I think 400 pictures

00:28:12   from the Sony A7R III which we got to

00:28:16   and did, had Lightroom render one to one previews

00:28:20   on import, which I usually do for various reasons.

00:28:23   So I threw everything I could at the CPU.

00:28:26   I've seen all the cores either be maxed out

00:28:28   or be almost maxed out for sustained periods.

00:28:31   I cannot get the fan to spin up

00:28:32   to a level that it's audible.

00:28:34   - Did you play games?

00:28:35   - No, of course not, I don't play games.

00:28:37   But it was--

00:28:38   - You had to play some games on your computer.

00:28:40   - Why, we have the Nintendo Switch.

00:28:42   It's the best game platform ever.

00:28:44   Why would I play games on my computer?

00:28:45   - Because you wanna stress the CPU and the GPU

00:28:48   at the same time, double the heat.

00:28:50   - No, but I don't care.

00:28:51   Do you play games on your fax machine?

00:28:52   Like no, it just--

00:28:53   - This is not for science, not for you, it's for science.

00:28:56   - Anyway, so all this is to say that so far,

00:29:00   in my week of using this computer pretty heavily,

00:29:03   I'm just incredibly happy with it.

00:29:07   It is so good, it is so fast, it is so quiet.

00:29:12   It is, and it just, it just has no limits for me.

00:29:17   Like, not everything is perfectly fast and stable,

00:29:19   but that's down to software, not hardware.

00:29:21   Like, it is just so damn good.

00:29:24   I'm incredibly happy with the iMac Pro,

00:29:28   and I would say it is,

00:29:30   I wouldn't say extremely likely

00:29:33   that I wouldn't ever need another Mac Pro again, but--

00:29:36   (laughing)

00:29:37   - Okay.

00:29:38   - But it is--

00:29:39   - Everyone mark this down.

00:29:40   - I'm just saying it is somewhat likely

00:29:43   that I might not need the Mac Pro.

00:29:46   Well, I don't need the Mac Pro,

00:29:47   but I might not want a Mac Pro after this.

00:29:49   Like this is so, so damn good that even though,

00:29:53   I mean I think you know,

00:29:54   Jon's assertion last episode was correct

00:29:56   that there's pretty much no chance

00:29:57   that I don't at least buy the Mac Pro.

00:29:59   So I am probably gonna buy it, but man this is good.

00:30:04   And anybody who thinks, oh maybe this won't be as good

00:30:09   as the Mac Pro, I should wait, honestly,

00:30:12   I don't think you need to wait.

00:30:13   This is the new Mac Pro for all intents and purposes

00:30:17   And it's so good that if you have a need

00:30:20   for this kind of computer right now,

00:30:23   just get this, it's amazing.

00:30:26   - I'm glad you like it, I really am.

00:30:27   I think it's hilarious that you think you would even,

00:30:30   for a fleeting moment, say no to a Mac Pro.

00:30:33   I mean, this is like when I was talking about

00:30:34   the Apple Watch that I didn't want.

00:30:36   Or there were like three or four things in a row

00:30:38   that I told everyone I didn't want

00:30:39   and then ended up immediately reneging on.

00:30:41   - BMWs, Macs.

00:30:42   - Yeah, exactly.

00:30:43   I don't think I want a HomePod,

00:30:46   so let's just put that on record right now.

00:30:48   - Yeah, I don't think I do either.

00:30:50   - You have no problem sticking to that one

00:30:51   if they never ship it.

00:30:52   - Good point.

00:30:54   But I think it's pretty obvious

00:30:55   that both of us wind up with a HomePod.

00:30:57   - So to address me and you in the chat,

00:30:59   can you functionally tell that this is a much better computer

00:31:01   than the regular iMac without benchmarking or stress testing?

00:31:05   That's a very good question.

00:31:07   You can tell that just whenever you do anything

00:31:09   multi-threaded, it is noticeably faster, obviously,

00:31:11   because I'm going from four cores to 10.

00:31:13   So you're gonna see that difference,

00:31:15   That's a big difference.

00:31:17   It also, besides the cosmetic stuff,

00:31:19   like the space green and everything,

00:31:20   it also just, being able to operate

00:31:23   no matter what you throw at it in silence

00:31:26   is a pretty big difference from the 5K iMac.

00:31:29   The 5K iMac for all, like as I mentioned last episode,

00:31:32   I haven't used that computer for three years.

00:31:34   It's a great computer, and for a lot of people,

00:31:36   that is plenty, that's fine.

00:31:38   But the one thing that always got me about it

00:31:41   that was not true of Mac Pros is that you would hear

00:31:43   the fan spin up, up and down, up and down,

00:31:45   as you, if you were pushing the CPU really hard for things,

00:31:49   you'd hear the fan come up and down with it.

00:31:51   Whereas with this, that doesn't happen.

00:31:53   So that is a pretty big difference,

00:31:55   if you're doing things that really stress it,

00:31:58   and if you care about fan noise.

00:32:00   If one of those things is not true for you,

00:32:03   then you're fine with the regular iMac,

00:32:05   but it's, you are definitely getting something

00:32:08   for the additional money here,

00:32:09   in addition to the performance increases

00:32:12   and the different architecture and the ECC

00:32:14   and stuff like that.

00:32:15   I would say the ability to run in that silence

00:32:19   could easily come to the iMac, to the regular iMac,

00:32:24   if they redesigned it thermally to be more like this,

00:32:28   but they can't do that, as far as I can tell,

00:32:31   until they remove all ability to put a three and a half inch

00:32:33   hard drive in there.

00:32:35   Because if you look at how the internals of these things

00:32:37   are laid out, the reason the iMac Pro is able to cool itself

00:32:41   not only to cool itself with just such a high thermal load

00:32:44   with all these high-end components in it,

00:32:45   but I think one of the reasons they're able to do it

00:32:47   so quietly is because they have a giant heat sink

00:32:50   and fan assembly located right in the middle of the back,

00:32:53   the thickest part of the enclosure,

00:32:55   and that is right where the 3 1/2 inch hard drive goes

00:32:57   in a regular iMac.

00:32:59   So if they continue to ship iMacs

00:33:02   with hard drive options available,

00:33:05   which honestly I think the time for that is just about done,

00:33:08   probably the next major generation of iMac,

00:33:12   I assume they're probably going to drop the hard drive option.

00:33:16   And if they do, then they can adopt

00:33:18   this kind of thermal design, and then they

00:33:20   can run it in silence too.

00:33:22   The other place people might notice

00:33:23   is speed difference on the iMac Pro, which

00:33:25   is unfortunately undercut by an even more dramatic speed

00:33:28   differences.

00:33:29   If you're coming from a computer like a iMac 5K or even older

00:33:34   that has a spinning drive, even if it's in a Fusion Drive

00:33:36   configuration and you do lots of reading and writing very large files.

00:33:42   And I was going to say, "Oh, you really notice it when you duplicate a 3 gig file."

00:33:46   But unfortunately, APFS makes duplicating a 3 gig file in the same volume instantaneous.

00:33:50   So it kind of kills your ability to see the benchmark.

00:33:51   What I'm getting at is that the SSDs in the iMac Pro are very, very fast, especially for

00:33:57   large bulk transfers of huge files.

00:34:00   It could be that it ends up being, you know, if you're not hooked up to 10 gig Ethernet,

00:34:05   three gigs per second of disk I/O, you're never going to see that.

00:34:11   You're never going to see it on the same volume because APFS will instantly copy it, and you're

00:34:14   never going to see it across the wire because you're limited by the speed of Ethernet.

00:34:17   But rest assured that the disk is much faster.

00:34:19   So if you do things that do a lot of I/O, say just reading a very large file into RAM

00:34:23   or saving out a large file, you may notice those progress bars speed up.

00:34:27   And that's not a multi-threaded thing, it's just like, you know, if you're ever used to

00:34:31   staring at a progress bar when disk.io is going on, that progress bar should go faster

00:34:36   on the iMac Pro than it does on other computers.

00:34:40   But yeah, if you're just running single-threaded applications, the iMac Pro is actually slower

00:34:43   than the top-end 5K iMac for some single-threaded tasks, depending on how many cores you get

00:34:49   in it.

00:34:50   But it's all about the multi-core.

00:34:51   And I suppose if you're doing anything having to do with the GPU, the GPU in the iMac Pro,

00:34:55   even though Marco never uses it to do anything except show Windows on his screen, is way,

00:34:59   way faster than the 5K iMacs.

00:35:01   I think Lightroom uses it.

00:35:03   - Well, plus I've heard reports from Marco from Underscore

00:35:07   and from Jason Snell about how much faster FFmpeg is

00:35:10   and in transcoding video is on their fancy pants iMac Pros.

00:35:14   And pretty much everyone has independently concluded

00:35:17   that it's about twice as fast as their prior 5K iMacs.

00:35:20   Now, I think everyone had older 5K iMacs than I have,

00:35:24   but nevertheless, it's basically a 2X improvement.

00:35:27   And that makes me sad because although I don't

00:35:31   transcode stuff as much as I probably paint it,

00:35:33   I do it often enough that I wish I had more speed

00:35:37   with which to do it.

00:35:38   But do I want to spend 5000 plus dollars

00:35:41   to transcode videos quicker?

00:35:43   No, no I don't.

00:35:45   Speaking of spending a shed load of money,

00:35:47   Marco, tell me about your camera.

00:35:48   - I love that it's, my name always comes up to that phrase.

00:35:52   - It sure does.

00:35:53   - So, sometime last year, I described that I had sold

00:35:58   my formerly beloved Sony A7R II,

00:36:01   to Steven Hackett incidentally,

00:36:04   because I was not happy with its speed and battery life,

00:36:08   were the two big issues with it.

00:36:11   And I had gone back to Canon SLRs,

00:36:15   back from whence I came,

00:36:16   and I was very happy with the handling

00:36:19   and everything of Canon SLRs.

00:36:21   I was never as happy with the pictures

00:36:25   I would get out of the Canon SLRs,

00:36:27   because the Sony had not only a pretty big

00:36:30   megapixel advantage, and the camera I'm talking about

00:36:33   on the Canon side is the 5D Mark IV,

00:36:35   which is an amazing camera.

00:36:38   But the main problem was that it didn't have the megapixels,

00:36:43   it did have the anti-aliasing filter over the sensor,

00:36:47   so you couldn't quite get the level of sharpness

00:36:51   out of the Canon, and it didn't have as advanced

00:36:56   of an autofocus system, and so my hit rate was not as good.

00:37:00   It also didn't have in-body stabilization,

00:37:04   so it also just kind of further lowered the hit rate,

00:37:06   and it couldn't quite achieve the high ISO numbers

00:37:11   or dynamic range in shadows that the Sony could.

00:37:13   It was very close, but it was a noticeable downgrade

00:37:18   in those areas, but I was happy with the Canon

00:37:21   because it was just so much more pleasurable to use

00:37:24   because everything was so much faster,

00:37:26   and it handled so much better and everything.

00:37:28   And I would still stand by the fact

00:37:30   that if you are shooting events,

00:37:32   like if you're in some kind of pro role,

00:37:35   I think the Canon line is still what you want.

00:37:38   And maybe Nikon too, I'm sorry Nikon fans,

00:37:40   I don't know anything about Nikon really.

00:37:42   I rented a D750 once and it was great,

00:37:45   but when it came time to buy,

00:37:46   I wasn't that convinced by the lens lineup

00:37:48   for what I actually would want in my lenses,

00:37:51   and so I didn't go Nikon at any of these points.

00:37:53   but anyway, the main problem I had with the Canon, again,

00:37:58   was just that I wasn't getting my favorite images out of it.

00:38:03   Like, as I was looking back, most of my favorite images

00:38:07   were shot by the Sony, and the Canon was so much more

00:38:10   pleasurable to use and way faster,

00:38:13   and the battery life was way better,

00:38:15   but I just was not getting images

00:38:17   that blew me away out of it.

00:38:19   It really is made for pro use,

00:38:22   and that's where it really does excel.

00:38:24   But that's not what I needed.

00:38:25   I really just wanted a camera that gave me

00:38:27   shockingly good images that just made me feel something

00:38:31   about how good they were.

00:38:33   And the Canon just didn't do that.

00:38:34   Late in 2017, so like a couple months ago,

00:38:40   Sony announced the A7R III.

00:38:42   And it doesn't actually change that much from the A7R II,

00:38:45   but two of the big things it changes

00:38:47   are battery life and performance.

00:38:50   the two big problems I have with the two.

00:38:52   - Convenient.

00:38:52   - Yeah, it's the same sensor,

00:38:55   a couple of minor improvements here and there,

00:38:56   but for the most part it's fairly similar,

00:39:00   but a battery that's like two and a half times the size,

00:39:04   and a significantly upgraded image processor

00:39:08   and interface and everything else,

00:39:09   so it's just a lot snappier.

00:39:12   I decided since the Christmas season

00:39:15   is by far my heaviest photography time,

00:39:18   I decided right before Christmas, you know what?

00:39:20   Let me try it, 'cause one thing I did

00:39:22   when I left the Sony ecosystem,

00:39:25   I kept my two favorite lenses,

00:39:26   the 35 2.8 and the 55 1.8 primes.

00:39:31   I kept both of those thinking, you know,

00:39:32   if I ever go back, I'll have these lenses,

00:39:35   I won't have to rebuy them.

00:39:36   If I don't go back after a couple years,

00:39:38   I'll sell them, they'll still have a lot of value

00:39:40   and it's not gonna matter whether I sell them now

00:39:41   or in a year or two.

00:39:43   So I still had the lens, so all I did was buy the body

00:39:45   and I figured, you know what, let me try it.

00:39:47   If it's terrible, I can return it or sell it or something.

00:39:51   And so I shot all through Christmas with it,

00:39:54   and it is fantastic.

00:39:56   It is so, so good.

00:39:58   It is still not to the levels of performance

00:40:01   and battery life that the Canon offers,

00:40:03   that most SLRs can offer, but it's now close enough.

00:40:08   It's now like, those things are not huge hindrances

00:40:11   that annoy me while using it.

00:40:14   They're just now very minor limitations,

00:40:17   but it's a massive difference in those two areas.

00:40:20   And I have taken shots that I just love from this camera.

00:40:24   Like, it is just so good.

00:40:27   And because of the features it offers

00:40:31   and some other performance areas it offers,

00:40:33   especially in regards to autofocus features,

00:40:36   autofocus performance, and low light performance

00:40:39   and in-body stabilization,

00:40:40   it is just an incredibly high keeper rate of what I shoot,

00:40:46   compared to my regular SLR use.

00:40:49   So I'm now back in the Sony world, I guess,

00:40:52   and it's really, really a very good camera.

00:40:57   And it is not cheap, none of this stuff is cheap.

00:40:59   I mean, the camera is like $3,000,

00:41:01   and the lenses I just mentioned, I think,

00:41:03   are seven or eight hundred dollars each.

00:41:07   This is not a cheap thing to do,

00:41:09   but no camera that offers this level of performance is cheap.

00:41:13   You know, the Canon SLRs aren't cheap either.

00:41:15   So within the realm of what you get, I think it is well priced and it is really, really

00:41:22   good and I'm very glad I have it.

00:41:24   So what does Tiff think of it?

00:41:25   Because she was, even when you had the R2, she was the SLR, the Canon SLR diehard who

00:41:31   didn't want to come over to the Sony side of the fence, or the mirrorless side of the

00:41:34   fence even.

00:41:35   Yeah, she very much prefers the Canons.

00:41:38   But she said over Christmas that she was glad

00:41:41   that I got this because it is,

00:41:44   the Sony has pretty big advantages

00:41:47   when you're shooting indoors in low light,

00:41:49   which a lot of our Christmas shooting is exactly that.

00:41:52   And so, and it's also just, you know,

00:41:55   small and unobtrusive and easy to handle

00:41:58   and easy to like have around like in the living room

00:42:01   while we're opening gifts and stuff like that.

00:42:02   So it's like, it was a very, very good camera

00:42:06   for our needs for Christmas.

00:42:07   And so even though it is not her favorite camera

00:42:09   the rest of the year, she was very happy I had it.

00:42:12   And it's gonna continue to be my camera, basically,

00:42:16   and the Canon's will resume being her cameras

00:42:19   the way they used to be.

00:42:20   But yeah, so far--

00:42:22   - She's gotten year-round to use the camera

00:42:24   she doesn't like.

00:42:25   - Yeah, pretty much.

00:42:26   I mean, and she's glad--

00:42:27   - Looks good on you, though.

00:42:28   - And she's glad that I no longer need to use hers.

00:42:31   - Don't laugh at that.

00:42:32   You didn't get that reference.

00:42:33   - I didn't, no.

00:42:34   I was laughing at your voice, really.

00:42:35   - Exactly.

00:42:37   - Trust me, that was a dead-on imitation

00:42:39   of the thing I was referencing.

00:42:40   - Good, congratulations.

00:42:41   I give you one point.

00:42:44   - As far as you know, it's dead-on.

00:42:46   - And may God have mercy on your soul.

00:42:48   Actually, that was no points.

00:42:50   Yeah, that's all right.

00:42:50   - Yep.

00:42:51   - Anyway.

00:42:53   All right, so you like your camera.

00:42:54   That's good.

00:42:54   So what are the complaints about other than cost?

00:42:59   Are you 100% happy now,

00:43:00   outside of the fact that you're broke,

00:43:02   or are you just 90% happy?

00:43:05   - I'm pretty happy.

00:43:06   I mean, the battery life is now good enough.

00:43:09   Like, it's to the point where you can,

00:43:11   I was able to shoot with it like all day

00:43:13   and not have to swap batteries.

00:43:15   And that's way different than the A7R II.

00:43:19   Like, I laughed.

00:43:21   The A7R II, when it came out,

00:43:24   it came with two batteries in the box.

00:43:26   That's how bad the battery life is on the A7R II,

00:43:28   they ship it with two batteries.

00:43:30   Like, I've never seen any electronic of any kind

00:43:33   that came with two of its own batteries

00:43:35   because the bagger life was so bad

00:43:37   they knew you would need both.

00:43:39   I've literally never seen that before or since.

00:43:42   But this one only comes with one for a reason.

00:43:44   Like you really don't, like one is fine.

00:43:46   I have a second one just 'cause I was afraid.

00:43:48   So I bought a second one and I did swap it a couple times

00:43:51   during downtime on Christmas day.

00:43:53   Like when we had no need to shoot for like 20 minutes,

00:43:57   I would swap anyway, but I didn't need to.

00:44:00   And I swapped twice and I compared the percentages.

00:44:03   I was like, "Oh, I didn't even need to swap at all.

00:44:05   this is great.

00:44:06   So battery life huge thumbs up.

00:44:09   The performance of things like reviewing images quickly

00:44:12   to make sure you got the focus right and everything

00:44:16   is way faster than it was.

00:44:18   It also has a pretty good feature where,

00:44:20   on the A7, this is really nitpicky

00:44:23   and no one who doesn't own this will even care,

00:44:25   but quickly this is a pretty big upgrade.

00:44:28   The A7R II, if you would try to do something

00:44:31   while it was writing to the card,

00:44:32   it would say operation not available

00:44:34   for a lot of things that you try to do,

00:44:36   this one doesn't do that anymore.

00:44:37   That's a huge, so like, that's like a big waiting point

00:44:40   from A7R II that has gone on A7R III.

00:44:43   So anyway, stuff like that, there's a number of big

00:44:47   and small improvements that remove tons of friction

00:44:50   and annoyances from this camera

00:44:52   that were there in the A7R II.

00:44:54   And the A7R II is an awesome camera already,

00:44:57   so to be able to improve on it so substantially

00:45:00   in only, I think, two years from the original release,

00:45:03   That's pretty good.

00:45:05   So very, very happy.

00:45:07   At the moment, I really have no major complaints about it.

00:45:09   - Good.

00:45:10   Did they change the interface,

00:45:11   the horrible, as far as I'm concerned,

00:45:14   like menu system interface Sony thing?

00:45:17   - Oh yeah, they changed it from one disaster to another.

00:45:19   So it's a lateral move.

00:45:22   It's different.

00:45:23   I don't think it's better, but it is different.

00:45:26   - So they had to learn where to find things all over again.

00:45:27   Was that under the suitcase on screen seven?

00:45:30   Or? (laughing)

00:45:31   - Yeah.

00:45:31   - It looks like they added a little joystick

00:45:34   to the back of it too for like focus moving and stuff.

00:45:36   - Yes, I don't really use that very often,

00:45:38   but it is nice when you need it.

00:45:40   - And they replaced the weird Sony AF/MF switch

00:45:44   with a button in the middle of it that's gone now.

00:45:48   - Oh yeah, the weird AMF, yeah, the DMF thing.

00:45:50   That's now, that's in the menu somewhere, I don't know.

00:45:52   I usually keep it in continuous focus.

00:45:54   - They use that middle button for eye autofocus.

00:45:56   Do you ever use eye autofocus, is that on the screen?

00:45:57   - I always use eye autofocus.

00:45:59   That's one of the things that makes

00:46:01   the focus engine so awesome on this.

00:46:03   - Do what button do you have that assigned to?

00:46:05   - Oh, I just have it on all the time.

00:46:07   - I thought it was a button, at least on my camera

00:46:09   I think it's a button you have to assign it to.

00:46:10   - I know they upgraded it in some way for this.

00:46:14   I never used it on the two, so I don't know

00:46:17   if it's that different in that way, but yeah.

00:46:20   The eye priority autofocus is great,

00:46:22   and I use it frequently.

00:46:24   - So because on my camera when you do it half button down

00:46:26   it will never do eye autofocus, you have to press

00:46:28   another button that you assign to be eye autofocus

00:46:30   and then the little green square zooms right in

00:46:32   on their eyeball and you know it's doing it.

00:46:34   Like you get the tiny little green square.

00:46:35   - Oh, maybe I'm not doing it.

00:46:37   - Face thing.

00:46:38   I think you're not doing it.

00:46:39   - There's face priority auto focus.

00:46:40   I have that always enabled.

00:46:42   But there might be a different thing.

00:46:44   - Yeah, the auto focus, you'll know you're doing it

00:46:46   because it makes the green focus rectangle

00:46:49   literally the size of their iris.

00:46:51   And it just pinned onto their iris.

00:46:53   - All right, I'll play with it.

00:46:54   'Cause I just get the whole face as the green rectangle.

00:46:56   - Yeah, and the reason I bring it up

00:46:57   is because I use that button in the middle

00:47:00   the AF/MF switch to be my autofocus switch

00:47:02   'cause it's like a thumb thing,

00:47:03   but now with that button gun replaced by the joystick,

00:47:05   I'm not sure what I'd press.

00:47:06   So you have those programmable buttons,

00:47:08   like where the hell they go.

00:47:09   - Yeah, there's like six different buttons

00:47:11   you can program to do whatever you want.

00:47:12   So you definitely have options.

00:47:15   Also, one thing, with the battery life being so much better,

00:47:18   it allows me to turn on features that the A7R II had,

00:47:23   but that I didn't use because it would kill the battery more.

00:47:25   So one example of that is, I believe it's called Pre-AF,

00:47:29   where like that kind of tries to keep autofocus

00:47:31   in a reasonably ready state

00:47:33   before you actually push the button halfway down,

00:47:36   like just as you're looking around through the viewfinder.

00:47:38   That I can now leave on

00:47:40   because the battery is not so bad

00:47:43   that you have to like turn off half the features

00:47:44   to conserve battery life.

00:47:46   - And that's pre as (beep)

00:47:48   - Wow.

00:47:49   (laughing)

00:47:50   - I couldn't help it, I'm sorry.

00:47:51   - I know, that's fine, yeah.

00:47:53   - Did you, did they make the grip bigger on the body too?

00:47:58   like the little part you grab with your right hand,

00:48:00   does it like poke out from the camera more?

00:48:02   - I no longer have the two,

00:48:03   so I can't do a side by side comparison,

00:48:05   but the whole camera body got slightly deeper.

00:48:10   So maybe, like the overall grip on it

00:48:13   might be slightly bigger, but it's not a huge difference.

00:48:17   - I'm trying to figure out where they put the

00:48:18   two and a half times as big battery,

00:48:20   like 'cause the battery's in that grip,

00:48:21   like the part where you hold it,

00:48:22   so the hole where the battery goes has to be bigger,

00:48:24   so maybe the grip is bigger.

00:48:25   - I think that's why the whole body is bigger, honestly,

00:48:27   It's mostly for the, oh, it's also now dual card slots.

00:48:30   The cards have, the bottom card has UHS-II.

00:48:34   It has like the whole extra row of terminals.

00:48:36   So does the iMac Pro card reader,

00:48:37   so that's way faster now.

00:48:39   The camera also has USB 3.0,

00:48:41   and it has both a micro USB and a USB-C port,

00:48:45   either one of which can be used to power the computer,

00:48:47   to power the camera, charge the battery,

00:48:49   and transfer photos.

00:48:50   - Oh, that's nice.

00:48:51   - USB-C on camera is my dream.

00:48:53   Every time I plug in that terrible micro USB,

00:48:56   whatever that connector is, it always feels like it's broken

00:48:58   and you have to stare out for 10 minutes

00:48:59   to make sure you have it the right way

00:49:01   before you try to jam it in.

00:49:03   - Yep, that's a big quality of life improvement.

00:49:06   And just A, having the camera be able to charge itself

00:49:10   over USB, which the two could do, but Canon's can't.

00:49:13   I love that feature alone, 'cause that means

00:49:16   for most places you would bring it,

00:49:17   you don't have to bring a separate battery charger

00:49:19   unless you really need super fast charging

00:49:21   while one battery's in use.

00:49:23   But if you-- - Now, hold on.

00:49:25   I think you're underplaying this. Even with your amount of enthusiasm, my beloved, and

00:49:30   I love this camera, my Olympus OM-D EM10 has an external battery charger that is not terribly

00:49:37   small and the cable is not terribly conducive to being wrapped up cleanly and nicely. It

00:49:44   drives me insane and I would give almost anything to be able to charge the battery within the

00:49:49   in the camera itself. That in and of itself would make me give all of my money to Sony

00:49:55   or Olympus or what have you so I could charge the stupid batteries in the camera. That's

00:50:00   tremendous.

00:50:01   Most Sonys offer that feature, by the way, including Johns, I believe, right?

00:50:03   Yeah, but before you say that, though, you should consider what—I don't know who

00:50:08   came up with this design. It really wasn't Sony, but anyone who has a camera, fancy or

00:50:13   otherwise, is probably familiar with the idea of a panel somewhere on your camera, probably

00:50:18   with like a fingernail ridge on it

00:50:20   that they expect you to like disengage somehow

00:50:23   and then it just swings out of the way

00:50:25   on this flimsy single pivot

00:50:27   and hopefully doesn't crack off.

00:50:29   Like the doors you have to move to get at the USB things

00:50:32   are like the worst design, flimsiest, most terrifying,

00:50:35   they're going to snap off of my $3,000 camera

00:50:38   in two seconds if I'm not careful, doors.

00:50:40   And it doesn't have to be that way.

00:50:41   Like it's possible to make a sturdy door

00:50:44   covering a bunch of ports, but cameras don't.

00:50:47   They do like literally the, it's like,

00:50:50   by how little material can we attach

00:50:52   this flimsy plastic door to our camera?

00:50:54   Can we do it by like a human hair?

00:50:57   Then do that.

00:50:59   And then you can't quite swing them totally out of the way.

00:51:01   - I'll tell you what though, I've never had one break.

00:51:05   - I know, 'cause everyone is super careful with them.

00:51:06   You treat them with kid gloves,

00:51:08   you're like, ooh, this looks delicate,

00:51:09   so you're super careful with it.

00:51:10   The one on my camera is actually not that bad.

00:51:12   It actually slides like back and then out

00:51:14   and it's almost like a double hinge thing.

00:51:16   but I see the picture of the a7r III it's got three giant flimsy doors all connected

00:51:21   at one point all of which partially block the ports unless you like twist them like

00:51:25   720 degrees around like rotate them out of the way until you find a position where they're

00:51:29   not blocking the ports I really wish they would fix that I'm not asking for waterproof

00:51:34   cameras here I'm just saying like make the doors a little bit more a little more sturdy

00:51:38   to match the rest of the camera looks pretty rugged like but those those doors no good

00:51:42   Well, I wish you didn't like this camera as much as you do, Marcos. I was hoping you'd

00:51:47   be like, "Oh, no, it's still no good. I go back to my Canon because now I want this camera

00:51:50   and it costs too much money."

00:51:51   I mean, that would be funnier on the show if I did that, but unfortunately I don't see

00:51:57   it happening. I'm just so much happier with, like, as I said, the a7R II was such a great

00:52:03   camera but just was let down by a few of its, you know, lacking technologies or choices.

00:52:08   and this one fixes them all.

00:52:10   So it's really good.

00:52:11   - You were pessimistic about it too, by the way,

00:52:14   when the camera came out, like no one had gotten

00:52:16   to test it yet, you were like,

00:52:17   "Oh no, it's probably not gonna be that great,

00:52:19   "maybe the battery life's better, but whatever."

00:52:21   - Yeah, because we had an Ask ATP question

00:52:24   like three, four months ago when it came out

00:52:26   from somebody saying, "Am I gonna get it?"

00:52:28   And at the time I said, "I'll see what the reviews say,

00:52:31   "but I don't think it would be a better enough battery

00:52:34   "or better enough performance to make it worth it."

00:52:37   And then all the early reviews were so glowing and positive,

00:52:40   especially on those two fronts, that,

00:52:43   and actually what made me get it was one of the reviews

00:52:47   that said, the little nitpicky thing I said earlier,

00:52:48   where like, you can keep navigating menus

00:52:51   while it's writing to the card.

00:52:52   As soon as I read that, I'm like, oh my god,

00:52:54   huge difference buying it.

00:52:56   (laughing)

00:52:57   That was it.

00:52:58   - Have you tried the insane frame rate

00:53:01   for the burst photos on anything?

00:53:04   - No, I don't usually do high-speed bursts.

00:53:06   I think it can go up to like 10 frames a second,

00:53:08   something like that.

00:53:09   - It goes way higher than you ever really want it to.

00:53:12   Like the iPhone goes pretty insanely high too,

00:53:14   but like, you know, I do lots of burst photos,

00:53:15   I do action photos on like, you know,

00:53:18   the ocean or vacation.

00:53:19   I don't think I've ever gone above the mid setting,

00:53:22   which is like half of the rate that my camera's able to do.

00:53:25   And I think this one is able to go,

00:53:27   you practically take like slow-mo movies

00:53:30   with the number of frames per second.

00:53:31   It's pretty ridiculous.

00:53:33   - Yeah.

00:53:33   - Then unlike the iPhone, you don't have like,

00:53:35   keep only one frame from the burst,

00:53:36   you have to sort through all 900 photos you just took

00:53:39   by holding down the shutter button for three seconds.

00:53:41   - And every one of them is like a 45 megabyte raw file

00:53:44   that takes light room like 10 seconds to import.

00:53:47   - Burst photos especially at the highest speed,

00:53:50   it's like a stress test for your ability

00:53:55   to do pics from your own photos, right?

00:53:58   'Cause you have to go through like a hundred pictures,

00:54:01   all of which are nearly identical to each other

00:54:03   and decide do I want this one or that one,

00:54:04   This one or that one?

00:54:05   This one or that one?

00:54:06   This one, you're like, they're practically identical.

00:54:08   They're two pixels different.

00:54:09   Which one do I delete?

00:54:10   It's lots of fun.

00:54:11   - Yeah, I have rarely found bursts worthwhile.

00:54:14   I used to, back when I was,

00:54:16   when I was earlier in my photography hobby,

00:54:18   like five, 10 years ago,

00:54:20   I kept it in continuous shooting mode

00:54:23   and would frequently shoot a three or four picture burst

00:54:25   for whatever I was getting,

00:54:26   and that would be over about a second.

00:54:29   But over time, first of all,

00:54:32   I just kinda got better at timing it,

00:54:34   and so I didn't need the burst as much.

00:54:36   But also I realized like I was never,

00:54:38   it was never worth the time or the storage overhead

00:54:42   or the processing overhead.

00:54:43   I wasn't getting enough out of it.

00:54:45   So I just switched to single shot most of the time

00:54:48   and it's totally fine.

00:54:50   - Well for sports you still need the burst.

00:54:51   Like that's what I'm using.

00:54:52   If people are in motion playing a sport or running

00:54:55   or jumping in the ocean waves, burst is the way to go

00:54:58   'cause there's just no other way to get

00:54:59   the shot that you want.

00:55:00   But yeah, burst is annoying as anything for situations

00:55:03   people are not performing a sport. Because you end up with three pictures of everybody.

00:55:07   Yeah, yeah. Burst makes a lot of sense for pros or people shooting soccer or pros shooting

00:55:13   soccer. But yeah, my family is not that high motion.

00:55:17   I would recommend that even if people are playing badminton in the backyard at a family

00:55:22   gathering, try it. Burst for those things. For people doing sports, if they're performing

00:55:26   a motion, like they're swatting at the little birdie thing or they're hitting a volleyball

00:55:30   or blocking a jump shot, even just a burst of three or four, you know, usually all of

00:55:37   them are crap, but every once in a while, one of them is good and you realize if I had

00:55:40   taken a single shot, the odds of me getting that one weren't good.

00:55:43   So when people are in motion in very bright sunlight, obviously, you know, you use that

00:55:48   sport preset on your Sony camera that, you know, cranks down the shutter speed and turn

00:55:54   on burst mode, not on the high setting because then you'll get like every hair moving on

00:55:58   their body, but just on the mid or low setting to get a couple of choices. That's how I've

00:56:04   gotten most of my good ocean pictures, because you're waist deep in the ocean and waves are

00:56:09   crashing on people, you need a couple, you need a burst to get anything good out of that.

00:56:14   And very often, both ends of the burst are garbage, so you're like, "Boy, it's a good

00:56:17   thing. It's a good thing I got that middle part there." If I had just put the shutter

00:56:20   down when I thought it was happening, got one picture, odds of it being good are very

00:56:23   small.

00:56:24   nostalgia null in the chat suggest,

00:56:26   maybe you could binary search through the burst.

00:56:29   So all right, start in the middle.

00:56:30   - Solid.

00:56:31   (laughing)

00:56:32   - Does what I want before or after this?

00:56:33   - The problem is the judgment.

00:56:35   The problem is the judgment, the judgment call.

00:56:37   Like you will get down to sort of more or less

00:56:39   the portion of the pose that you want,

00:56:41   but then you will have five pictures to choose from

00:56:43   that if you had to put them side by side,

00:56:45   you'd be hard pressed to say,

00:56:46   are these the same picture or are they different?

00:56:48   - Yeah, I think if you're getting that little variation,

00:56:50   then either your frame rate is too high

00:56:52   or you don't need to be shooting bursts.

00:56:54   - That's why I said don't go above mid,

00:56:55   'cause these things, the frame rate, I forget what it is.

00:56:57   I think it's, is it like 40 or 60?

00:57:01   I don't know, it might be faster than--

00:57:02   - The A9 is the sport-oriented model.

00:57:05   That one I think can go faster.

00:57:07   I think the A7R III is either like seven

00:57:09   or 10 frames a second, but the A9 I think might be 15 or 20.

00:57:13   - No, it's gotta be faster than that.

00:57:14   Mine is faster than that.

00:57:15   Is it because the giant sensor can't get the data

00:57:17   onto the card fast enough?

00:57:18   - I believe it can't get the data

00:57:19   off the sensor fast enough.

00:57:21   I think that's usually the limitation.

00:57:23   - Yeah, now mine is faster than that

00:57:24   'cause I have the smaller sensor.

00:57:26   - We're not talking about video mode,

00:57:27   we're talking about photos.

00:57:29   - Yeah, camera, just plain old photos.

00:57:30   - Yeah, okay, the A9 is up to 20 frames a second.

00:57:33   - Anyway, 10 pictures for one second

00:57:35   goes by faster than you think.

00:57:37   - It is 10, yeah, so A7R III is 10, A9 is 20.

00:57:40   - Speaking of video, have you shot any video with it

00:57:43   or are you still just iPhone only for that?

00:57:44   - I'm just iPhone only for that.

00:57:46   I really, I don't shoot, and I know this is like,

00:57:49   it's weird, high-end cameras like this

00:57:50   have themselves in a weird market

00:57:52   where basically around the time of the Canon 5D Mark II,

00:57:57   which came out in 2008,

00:58:00   the SLR market shifted dramatically

00:58:03   'cause the Mark II was the first widely available SLR

00:58:06   that could shoot really good video.

00:58:09   And so good that it was actually better

00:58:11   than a lot of pro video cameras at the time.

00:58:14   And that trend has continued,

00:58:16   and while pro video cameras now are now better

00:58:20   in certain ways and certain things,

00:58:22   a lot of video is shot on SLRs

00:58:25   and high-end mirrorless cameras.

00:58:26   A lot of pro-level video is shot using these cameras.

00:58:30   So video dictates a lot of their feature set

00:58:33   because that's the people who are actually

00:58:34   buying these things.

00:58:35   So it's funny, it's hard to find good reviews

00:58:38   of these cameras if you're not into video

00:58:40   because so many of the reviews focus so heavily on videos

00:58:42   'cause that's what so many of the buyers are,

00:58:44   that's what so many of the features are for,

00:58:45   that's what so many of the changes are every year.

00:58:47   I really don't shoot video with fancy cameras very often.

00:58:51   and it's not because it's not good.

00:58:53   It looks great when you do it.

00:58:55   It's because I'm not a good enough videographer to do it.

00:58:58   And if I just shoot video with my iPhone,

00:59:00   it turns out way better.

00:59:02   'Cause the iPhone does a way better job at auto-focus,

00:59:05   and also the iPhone tends to be way better at,

00:59:08   oh, and also it has built-in stabilization, of course,

00:59:09   but also the iPhone is way better at audio.

00:59:12   Like, whatever it does with its built-in mics

00:59:16   and the noise cancellation that it does between them,

00:59:19   it is way better at its built-in audio

00:59:23   than the crappy little built-in mics that are on SLRs.

00:59:26   And granted, pro video people don't use the built-in mics,

00:59:29   or at least they shouldn't.

00:59:30   So, you know, there's not much of a market demand

00:59:32   for the camera makers to make their camera built-in mics

00:59:34   awesome, but if you're just a casual person shooting

00:59:37   with what you have in your hand

00:59:39   without any external equipment,

00:59:40   the iPhone will shoot way better video

00:59:43   and way better audio along with it

00:59:45   than most of these cameras will do, you know,

00:59:48   in a layman's hands.

00:59:49   We are sponsored this week by Linode,

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01:01:58   - So, programming note.

01:02:02   - Baby?

01:02:03   - No, but I think we should choose wisely.

01:02:06   So, I have ARM Windows PCs.

01:02:08   - We have different goals here.

01:02:11   Your goal is to end the show early.

01:02:13   My goal is to have you have to leave the show to have a baby.

01:02:17   I think that would be amazing.

01:02:18   We're going to avoid that.

01:02:19   Well, we just jump to Ask ATP immediately and then we'll check back in and see how

01:02:23   we're doing.

01:02:24   All right.

01:02:25   Then you'll just restitch it all in post?

01:02:27   No, we'll just have a longer aftershow.

01:02:28   Yeah.

01:02:29   All right.

01:02:30   I'm okay with that.

01:02:31   We'll just keep going on the aftershow until that baby comes, damn it.

01:02:33   Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:02:35   So, Casey, tell us more about your Jeep Wrangler ambitions.

01:02:37   Well, since you've asked.

01:02:40   I saw a broken down Wrangler on a tow truck bed the other day, I thought of you.

01:02:43   Aw, thanks buddy.

01:02:44   I saw a Wrangler with purple, I assume LED rings on the headlights during the day.

01:02:51   So it was like during the day, but there was two purple circles looking at me.

01:02:54   I think that's now stock on the newer ones.

01:02:58   Not purple, of course, but the new ones I think do have like angel eye style.

01:03:01   I might be wrong about that, so double check my work on that.

01:03:05   But I think that might be stock now.

01:03:07   Anyway.

01:03:08   - I love that like the Jeep Wrangler,

01:03:11   if you just look in like,

01:03:12   not only how they can be configured stock,

01:03:14   but like just look at what people do to them

01:03:16   after the fact and it's just a wonderful tour

01:03:20   of bad decisions and bad designs and tackiness

01:03:23   and horribleness. - Oh stop, it's not that bad.

01:03:25   It's just it's a different purpose.

01:03:26   The purpose isn't to be luxurious and fancy,

01:03:29   the purpose is to break (beep)

01:03:31   hopefully not itself, but whatever.

01:03:33   - Well, unfortunately that doesn't happen.

01:03:35   Unfortunately it breaks itself quite often.

01:03:38   It occurred to me, I think it was earlier today, that I don't want the Accord because

01:03:45   you can't get any of the nice fancy bits with the one I would get.

01:03:49   I may or may not want the Wrangler because it has, obviously, as much as I'm trying to

01:03:53   defend it, the whole world of its own problems.

01:03:56   I don't want to go far because I want a sunroof.

01:03:59   I really friggin' love sunroofs.

01:04:02   You can think I'm weird, you can think I'm crazy.

01:04:04   I like a sunroof.

01:04:05   It makes me happy.

01:04:06   I'm with you on that.

01:04:07   - They're awesome.

01:04:08   - Right, in the Gulf R, you can't get it with the sunroof.

01:04:11   So what do I, I'm out of options.

01:04:12   I either go BMW and hate myself slash maybe get a divorce,

01:04:16   or I get like a GTI, which is wrong wheel drive

01:04:20   and not as fast, and then I'll hate myself

01:04:21   for not having the Gulf R.

01:04:22   - No, no, no.

01:04:23   - What do you do?

01:04:24   What do you do?

01:04:25   That's a rhetorical question.

01:04:26   - Keep fixing your car until something better comes along.

01:04:28   - That's probably the answer,

01:04:29   but at that point I'm gonna run out of--

01:04:30   - What is my Mac Pro technique?

01:04:32   - Yeah, it's true.

01:04:33   (laughing)

01:04:34   - It's like 10 years later.

01:04:34   - That's a very good point.

01:04:35   - That's a very, very good point.

01:04:37   Oh man, that's funny.

01:04:39   - Well, or, alternately, keep fixing your car

01:04:41   until you are, like, consulting millionaire

01:04:43   and you can buy Julia.

01:04:45   - Yeah, that's the answer.

01:04:47   Actually, that doesn't have sunroof either.

01:04:48   The quadra-fiber doesn't anyway.

01:04:50   I know.

01:04:51   I mean, in a week it didn't bother me.

01:04:52   - Sunroof stink.

01:04:53   I'm Andy Sunroof.

01:04:54   - Well, 'cause you're tall and you hate things.

01:04:56   - It's all right.

01:04:57   There's nothing worse than having your hair

01:04:58   touch the headliner.

01:04:59   Nothing worse.

01:05:00   - That is the best summary of your perspective on sunroofs,

01:05:05   you're tall and you hate things. I know it's true have you I'm gonna say Marco

01:05:09   hasn't for various reasons but Casey have you ever had your hair touch the

01:05:13   headliner in a car? Oh it's infuriating but I have a couple of friends I guess

01:05:17   this one in particular that I'm thinking of that is about the same height as you

01:05:20   so I am like six foot give or take an inch depending on the day and you're

01:05:25   what six two is that right? Yeah but I got more neck. More of my height is above the belt line.

01:05:32   line. Oh man, John I love you. But anyway, the point I'm driving at is that he hates

01:05:41   sunroofs because sunroofs, sunroofs, whatever, because he's constantly complaining and moaning

01:05:46   about his head hitting the headliner because apparently it's worse when you have a sunroof.

01:05:50   I don't really understand that since there's a sunroof. Yeah, it intrudes into the interior

01:05:53   space. That's why I never buy cars with sunroofs because it makes, it makes, most cars fit

01:05:57   me with no sunroof. As soon as you put the sunroof in, head hits the headliner almost

01:06:01   no matter how low you can make the seat go.

01:06:03   It's even true in Hondas.

01:06:05   - Yeah, because they don't make the car,

01:06:06   like the sunroof is thicker,

01:06:07   and they don't make the car taller,

01:06:09   they just make it intrude into the interior space.

01:06:11   - And they don't make the seats go down lower either.

01:06:13   Like they could do that, they could say,

01:06:15   "Okay, on the sunroof models,

01:06:16   "the seat goes down an extra two inches," but they don't.

01:06:18   - Yeah, the problems of tall people.

01:06:20   - Yeah, and I thought I had the poofier hair

01:06:21   of the two of us, but you know, whatever.

01:06:24   - I used to have the poofy hair in my youth.

01:06:25   - See, and this is only a problem

01:06:28   if you are tall and have tall hair.

01:06:31   You don't need to have tall hair. If your physical skull hits the headliner, which can happen depending on the car,

01:06:36   it doesn't matter what your hairstyle is.

01:06:38   But it's almost worse when your skull doesn't hit it, but your hair just barely hits it because it gets all staticky and it pulls.

01:06:44   It's the worst. It's the worst.

01:06:45   Yeah, I really feel bad for you guys. That sounds awful.

01:06:47   You should. You should. I feel bad for your head sunburn and you should feel bad for my tickly hair headliner thing.

01:06:54   Savage.

01:06:56   Wow, this is getting aggressive.

01:06:58   Alright, let's tone it down.

01:06:59   I do always have to wear a hat in the summertime.

01:07:02   It's funny, I actually can't use my sunroof

01:07:04   in the summertime usually because I have to wear a hat

01:07:07   and then when I do, it blows off like if it's windy.

01:07:10   So usually I get most of my sunroofing done

01:07:13   in the off season in like the fall, winter, and spring

01:07:17   when I can have it hat free and hopefully not get

01:07:20   a sunburn on my head in January.

01:07:22   - That's why Casey wants a Wrangler, no roof.

01:07:24   - Right, I'm saying.

01:07:26   Although it'll totally (beep) up my hair every time

01:07:28   So then I have a whole new world of problems.

01:07:30   - Oh yeah, you're too vain for a wrangler, nevermind.

01:07:32   - I know, I'm saying.

01:07:34   And by the way, Tim, underscore, underscore, underscore,

01:07:37   I have never driven a GTI,

01:07:38   and everyone I know who has ever had,

01:07:41   that's the key phrase here, had a GTI,

01:07:44   always says that I'm crazy to want the Golf R,

01:07:47   the GTI is better.

01:07:47   But I do know that I (beep) hate front wheel drive

01:07:52   with all of my being.

01:07:53   And so that is one major reason

01:07:56   why I suspect I would not like a GTI.

01:07:58   I should try it, and I probably will try it

01:08:00   if the time ever comes, but I hate front wheel drive.

01:08:04   And I'm assuming, and I'm swearing like a sailor

01:08:06   'cause I'm assuming none of this is making the show.

01:08:08   - You used to hate automatics too,

01:08:10   and then you go to Julia.

01:08:11   - Touché, that's a fair point.

01:08:13   - I mean honestly, you're really getting yourself

01:08:16   into a BMW, like with more-- - I know.

01:08:19   - But look, it's not a big deal.

01:08:21   Just no going into it, in the same way,

01:08:25   when you buy an Apple product,

01:08:28   We all love Apple products, but we also know that,

01:08:32   okay, in two years, they're gonna release something

01:08:36   that makes this look ancient.

01:08:38   And if it's an iOS product in two years,

01:08:41   it's gonna be a lot slower than when I bought it,

01:08:43   because the new OS will be slower on this hardware.

01:08:46   You just kinda know that this is going to degrade

01:08:52   in my satisfaction or in actual usage

01:08:55   in certain ways over time.

01:08:57   You know that going into it, and so you plan for that.

01:09:00   You do what you can to complain about it on a podcast,

01:09:03   but for the most part, you're kind of stuck with it.

01:09:06   And so you deal with it because it's better

01:09:08   than buying Windows, right?

01:09:09   And so in this case, if all the attributes of a car

01:09:14   that you actually like a lot seem to really pretty much

01:09:20   only be available on BMWs, it's not that ridiculous

01:09:24   for you to buy another BMW, even though your current one

01:09:26   has given you lots of service trouble,

01:09:27   just no going into it, make the decision accordingly

01:09:31   that this is going to cost money in repairs

01:09:33   if I have to repair it.

01:09:34   So you can then either, you can make different decisions

01:09:37   about things like how much do you spend on it

01:09:39   in the first place, maybe do you save a budget

01:09:41   for repairs later, or do you lease something

01:09:44   or finance something under warranty

01:09:46   and then get rid of it or sell it when it's out of warranty.

01:09:49   You can make different decisions.

01:09:51   It doesn't mean you need to get something

01:09:54   that is severely lacking in areas you care about,

01:09:58   just to spite this company that couldn't give less

01:10:00   of a damn about you?

01:10:02   - Yeah, that's fair.

01:10:03   I don't know, and part of the reason why the Volkswagen

01:10:08   line or train of thought is appealing to me

01:10:10   is because they're now offering six-year warranties,

01:10:12   as far as I'm aware, anyway,

01:10:13   they're offering six-year warranties on all their cars,

01:10:16   and I tend to own a car for between six and 10 years,

01:10:19   so there is something appealing to me in having a car

01:10:23   that is warrantied for that long.

01:10:24   And granted, I could get an extended warranty for,

01:10:27   I could have gotten an extended warranty for my car.

01:10:29   - Oh, don't get those.

01:10:30   Those are pains in the, no, those are rip-offs.

01:10:31   - Right, and that's the thing, is that even if,

01:10:34   you know, like a buddy of mine who has a 2011 335,

01:10:38   he got an extended warranty for his

01:10:40   and had some sort of,

01:10:42   actually similar problem to my valvetrain,

01:10:44   although I guess it was just starting to go

01:10:46   and then fixed itself or something.

01:10:47   I forget the details.

01:10:48   I know that sounds funny, just go with it.

01:10:50   So anyway, he asked the extended warranty people,

01:10:53   "Hey, can I go ahead and get this repaired?"

01:10:55   And they were like, "Well, if the car is not

01:10:56   "actively exhibiting the problem, then no."

01:10:59   Despite the fact that the BMW tech was like,

01:11:00   "Hey, we saw that this was a code that was thrown,

01:11:04   "so presumably it didn't do that for funsies."

01:11:07   Yeah, so it's insurance all over again, right?

01:11:10   It's just a frickin' nightmare.

01:11:12   But anyway, you're cheating and using my weakness

01:11:15   to keep me on the microphone right now

01:11:17   and talking about cars.

01:11:19   - Totally accidental.

01:11:21   - What we should do is we should do some Ask ATP

01:11:23   and Clint asks, do you think Apple--

01:11:25   - So do you think if you went BMW,

01:11:26   do you think it would be-- - Would you stop it?

01:11:27   Stop it.

01:11:27   - Do you think it would be M3, M2, or M235i?

01:11:31   - None of the above because I can't afford it.

01:11:33   Because you're making me quit my job.

01:11:35   - The 235 line is really not that ridiculous.

01:11:38   - Well, I can't put any kids in it then.

01:11:40   - That's true.

01:11:41   By the way--

01:11:41   - Why am I letting myself get into this?

01:11:42   Stop, stop, we need to do Ask ATP.

01:11:44   - Have you given any more thought to quitting your job?

01:11:46   (laughing)

01:11:48   I've given an unreasonable amount of thought to that.

01:11:51   Stop.

01:11:52   Why am I allowing this?

01:11:53   How many offers have you gotten?

01:11:56   Just ballpark.

01:11:57   I have gotten probably, I would say less than ten.

01:12:01   Listeners, you know what to do.

01:12:03   Keep going.

01:12:04   Keep going.

01:12:05   Well, the problem is, to be honest, I've barely explored those because I've been so swamped

01:12:09   with pre-baby insanity that I probably seem like the most reluctant independent worker

01:12:14   ever because I have a couple emails that I need to reply to.

01:12:17   I just haven't had the time yet.

01:12:20   But anyway, we'll see what happens with that.

01:12:22   But we should talk about Ask ATP, where Clint asks,

01:12:25   "Do you think Apple will delay the Mac Pro?"

01:12:27   - Why do you have to put kids in your tiny car?

01:12:29   You have an XC90.

01:12:31   You could get a car that could fit in the XC90.

01:12:35   - That is true, however--

01:12:37   - The M235 is a pretty small car,

01:12:40   and a pretty good one by other reviews, right?

01:12:42   Haven't you driven one?

01:12:44   - Yes, I did drive a several-year-old one now.

01:12:46   I was like three or four years old.

01:12:48   Well, if it was still around today,

01:12:50   the guy who owned it has since unloaded it

01:12:53   for basically my car, actually.

01:12:54   But at the time, it was maybe two years old

01:12:57   and it was magnificent.

01:12:58   But-- - Bingo.

01:12:59   - Among other things-- - Used M235.

01:13:01   - That's a good answer.

01:13:03   But the problem with that is, A, I'd want the M2.

01:13:07   B, those are impossible to find

01:13:09   and slightly unaffordable.

01:13:10   And C, or three, I don't remember which one I was going for.

01:13:13   I do a preschool run with Declan

01:13:15   and I would like to be able to take both kids in the car

01:13:20   and not leave Aaron stranded,

01:13:21   because although Aaron is capable of driving a stick,

01:13:23   Aaron doesn't think Aaron's capable of driving a stick,

01:13:25   which means Aaron can't drive a stick.

01:13:27   So it's a bad situation.

01:13:30   But can we please do Ask ATP?

01:13:31   I need to start ignoring the car talk,

01:13:34   because you know it's my weakness.

01:13:35   - Is the M2 available with a DCT?

01:13:37   - So, Clint asks--

01:13:39   - Let me see, 'cause really a DCT is so close to a stick.

01:13:40   - Do you think Apple will delay the Mac Pro?

01:13:42   John, would you tell me, if you don't mind,

01:13:44   Do you think Apple will delay the micro release?

01:13:45   - Car and Driver test a BMW M2 DCT,

01:13:48   so obviously it exists.

01:13:49   Let's see, that looks pretty nice.

01:13:50   And Aaron could drive a DCT.

01:13:51   - We can do car stuff after AskATP, Marco.

01:13:55   (laughing)

01:13:56   Don't worry, we can string them along later.

01:13:58   We just gotta get through this.

01:13:59   (laughing)

01:14:01   - Just work with me, people, work with me.

01:14:05   Oh, good luck editing this one.

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01:15:35   (upbeat music)

01:15:38   - So, Clint asks, "Do you think Apple will delay

01:15:42   "the Mac Pro release until a new CPU architecture

01:15:44   "has been designed?"

01:15:46   I personally don't think that'll be the case

01:15:49   unless Intel says, "Hey, it's already designed

01:15:52   "and it's eminent and we'll have it out in a month."

01:15:54   Which will never happen, so no, I don't think so.

01:15:56   Marco, what do you think?

01:15:57   - Oh man, Sam the Geek just found a used listing

01:15:59   for a white M2.

01:16:01   This is your car.

01:16:03   This is perfect.

01:16:04   Concentrate, Marco.

01:16:06   It's a Mac Pro question.

01:16:07   You should be excited about this one.

01:16:09   I'll answer it because Marco's not into it.

01:16:12   Apple better not wait, because I think it's actually

01:16:14   going to be longer than people think before there

01:16:17   is a literal new CPU architecture that

01:16:19   works around this issue.

01:16:20   Because this issue is deeply embedded

01:16:22   into the way CPUs have been designed for many, many years.

01:16:26   And unless Intel started on this project four years ago,

01:16:29   a new CPU that solves this problem is not coming anytime soon.

01:16:34   But more importantly, I don't want Apple to delay anything.

01:16:39   They're going to continue to sell iMac Pros and all their other computers with these CPUs

01:16:43   that are vulnerable to this with OS-level workarounds, and that's what they're going

01:16:46   to do with the Mac Pro 2.

01:16:47   So no, no delay.

01:16:48   No delay for this anyway.

01:16:50   You know, last thing you want is to give Apple a reason to delay the Mac Pro.

01:16:53   Please don't give them reasons.

01:16:56   Even I would agree with that.

01:16:57   And that's not a thread on the Spectre meltdown stuff,

01:17:00   like exactly how long the timelines are

01:17:03   for a new architecture.

01:17:04   If you start today, oh, we haven't been doing anything

01:17:07   to mitigate this as yet, you know, this unknown,

01:17:11   you know, we didn't know about Spectre meltdown

01:17:12   until, you know, a couple of weeks ago or whatever.

01:17:15   Let's start today on a new architecture.

01:17:19   Let's take whatever project we've been working on

01:17:21   and modify it to account for this.

01:17:23   The timelines are long.

01:17:25   It's not like, well, give us a couple of months

01:17:26   and will have a new CPU out.

01:17:28   If you look at how long it takes to go from idea

01:17:31   to actual design to, you know, laying out,

01:17:35   I don't know if they still call it taping out,

01:17:37   to fabbing and verifying it, like those timelines are long.

01:17:41   So don't hold your breath for brand new CPU architectures

01:17:45   that completely eliminate this category of error.

01:17:48   There could be smaller fixes coming to minor revisions

01:17:51   of existing chips that help either help mitigate it

01:17:55   or help make it so that the OS level workarounds

01:17:57   don't have as big of a performance hit.

01:18:00   That could happen in the near term if they scramble.

01:18:02   But it's such a big change to actually make this category

01:18:05   of bug not exist and also maintain performance

01:18:08   that I think it's gonna be years.

01:18:12   - Also keep in mind that the Mac Pro and iMac Pro

01:18:15   use Xeon chips.

01:18:16   Xeons are the last chips in Intel's lineup

01:18:19   to get new microarchitectures.

01:18:21   So whenever they fix it in their consumer chips,

01:18:23   you're not gonna see it in any kind of Xeon workstation

01:18:26   for another year and a half to three years after that.

01:18:30   - Yeah, even I don't want this to be delayed.

01:18:33   And, God, I just need to get through the Mac Pro discussion.

01:18:37   And if I can get through the forthcoming Mac Pro discussion,

01:18:40   like in future episodes, whenever it's announced,

01:18:42   then I think the show may be able to last forever.

01:18:44   'Cause if I can make it through that, I'll be good.

01:18:46   Bryson asks, "John, I heard you say that HiCR--"

01:18:50   - You got a great message from a friend.

01:18:52   - That's why I was distracted for a half second.

01:18:55   Stop it, stop it.

01:18:56   - Messaging the three of us saying,

01:18:58   "Can someone explain RxSwift?

01:19:00   "It's important I know there's a cold by tomorrow morning."

01:19:02   Thanks.

01:19:03   (laughing)

01:19:05   Casey, I think you know something about RxSwift.

01:19:07   Can you help our friend out after the show?

01:19:09   - Stop it.

01:19:10   (laughing)

01:19:10   Maybe after the show.

01:19:12   Why are you using all my weaknesses against me?

01:19:14   Also, today I learned I have like 17 different flavors

01:19:16   of kryptonite.

01:19:17   Anyway.

01:19:18   (laughing)

01:19:20   - So what is RxSwift?

01:19:20   Is that prescription Swift?

01:19:22   What is that?

01:19:22   It's prescription sweat. Oh, God, I hate all of you, including our nameless friend. Bryson asks,

01:19:29   "John, I heard you say about the HighCR root bug that you keep your root account enabled anyway,

01:19:35   so you already had a strong password. For what reason do you need the root account?

01:19:39   Why not just use sudo? What does root do that sudo can't?" I'm actually curious to hear this as well,

01:19:45   because I don't have a root account with a password. I just use sudo for everything that

01:19:49   I would need. And I do dive into the command line daily, but I strongly suspect I am not

01:19:56   doing near as much in the command line as you are, Jon. So can you address this? Like,

01:20:01   what's the purpose for the root account having a password, or is it just you needing a tinfoil

01:20:05   hat?

01:20:06   Jon Sorrentino It's the opposite, actually. What you're doing

01:20:08   is the better way to do things. Do everything as the user, only do sudo when you need to

01:20:12   do something with heightened privileges. But the worse habit that I do, because I'm old,

01:20:19   is just hang out as root all the time. You know, because I don't use package managers,

01:20:24   I compile and install things, you know, myself. And it's just convenient to just always be root

01:20:31   and have all of my source files owned by root and build everything as root. And that's incredibly

01:20:35   dangerous to do that. You should not do this. I do not recommend this practice, but it is my habit.

01:20:40   And because it's my habit and it's my computer, I do it.

01:20:44   And many years of experience, including accidentally destroying a couple of OSs in my youth, has

01:20:50   led me to be pretty careful and pretty safe, but still it's not a good idea.

01:20:54   You should do everything as your user and just elevate privileges briefly, only when

01:20:59   you need it.

01:21:00   >> Mark, any thoughts?

01:21:01   >> No.

01:21:02   >> About this, about this specifically, for the love of God.

01:21:06   >> You know, I'm thinking of traveling to Manhattan.

01:21:08   I want to know if you had any pizza recommendations.

01:21:10   (sighs)

01:21:11   - There's so many crypto.

01:21:12   - He only has one recommendation.

01:21:14   - Yeah, that would be quick.

01:21:16   John Zablieker, moving on.

01:21:17   Jim Andway asks, Marco,

01:21:20   did you ever buy a Sonos One with Alexa,

01:21:22   and if so, do you like it?

01:21:24   - No, actually, I preordered it,

01:21:27   and then before it came out,

01:21:28   when the reviews started coming out,

01:21:29   I canceled the preorder,

01:21:30   'cause I realized I didn't care that much.

01:21:32   I have some Sonos stuff,

01:21:35   but I wouldn't say I'm super in the Sonos ecosystem.

01:21:38   I just find their app fairly clunky

01:21:41   for the things I want to do with my music.

01:21:43   So I almost never want to actually use it for anything.

01:21:48   So in the other side, I love the Amazon Echo

01:21:54   and use it constantly.

01:21:55   And it's very, very nice.

01:21:57   And one of the things that the Sonos one,

01:21:59   I think, was worse about is, you know,

01:22:03   Like every Echo that comes out since the original Tower

01:22:06   and Dot, it doesn't have the hardware volume dial

01:22:11   on the top, and some of the other reviews said

01:22:13   that they thought the microphones might be

01:22:15   a little bit worse, or at least that they were having

01:22:17   some trouble with them, and so I just decided,

01:22:19   you know what, I don't need this, so just cancel it.

01:22:22   And I'm very happy with my first generation Amazon Echo

01:22:27   with the big hardware volume knob and the nice microphones,

01:22:30   and it's totally fine and I haven't bought any of the new

01:22:34   Echos yet either because, same reason basically,

01:22:36   I'm very happy with the old one and we don't really have

01:22:39   any needs for any additional ones at this time.

01:22:41   - Alright, so how do we want to approach this?

01:22:42   Do you want to do Arm and keep me here for 17 hours?

01:22:46   - Yes.

01:22:47   - Or do you want to do--

01:22:48   - No, no, that's it, that's it, time for the After Show.

01:22:50   - I thought we were doing a longer After Show.

01:22:51   Are we talking about cars?

01:22:53   'Cause that is--

01:22:53   - Well, don't worry, we got plenty of stuff

01:22:54   for the After Show.

01:22:56   - What do we have for the After Show?

01:22:57   - Thanks to our sponsors this week,

01:22:58   Betterment, Linode, and Fracture.

01:23:00   And we will see you next week.

01:23:02   (upbeat music)

01:23:05   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

01:23:07   ♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

01:23:10   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:23:12   ♪ Oh it was accidental ♪

01:23:15   ♪ John didn't do any research ♪

01:23:17   ♪ Marco and Casey wouldn't let him ♪

01:23:20   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:23:23   ♪ Oh it was accidental ♪

01:23:26   And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM

01:23:31   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them

01:23:36   @CASEYLISS

01:23:40   So that's Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:23:44   Auntie Marco Arment

01:23:47   S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A, Syracusa

01:23:52   It's accidental

01:23:55   They didn't mean to Accidental (Accidental)

01:24:00   Tech Podcast so long

01:24:04   My first question for Casey is, what system have you established for this podcasting recording tonight

01:24:12   to be notified that it's time to stop podcasting?

01:24:15   There are several mechanisms. There is iMessage, there is Aaron coming in the room.

01:24:23   Actually, I guess that's really it. It's basically either I, messenger, Aaron storms in here and says, "It's time."

01:24:27   Or screaming. The screaming one in the systems.

01:24:29   Well, I was going to say that. I was going to say that, but we are basically on opposite corners of the house.

01:24:33   So, yes, that would work, but it would need to be significant enough that it would wake up me and, well, not that I'm asleep.

01:24:40   You know what I mean? Like, it would have to get through me and it would wake up Declan.

01:24:44   And Aaron has a, I don't want to use the word heroic, but I can't think of a better adjective, just a heroic threshold for pain.

01:24:52   And so because of that, I wouldn't be surprised

01:24:57   if she could go through something

01:25:00   that would render me unconscious

01:25:02   and she just would have a little, eh, that hurt,

01:25:07   or something like that.

01:25:08   So anyway, I would expect that she would either

01:25:11   iMessage me or she would just come storming in

01:25:14   and say this is it.

01:25:15   - I was worried that she's having interactions now

01:25:17   and she can't bring herself to even do a text message

01:25:19   so she's just down at the other side of the house

01:25:21   bearing down, wishing you would know that it's time to stop podcasting, and here you

01:25:25   are continuing to podcast.

01:25:26   That certainly could be, but I, as of about half an hour ago, I was being kept abreast

01:25:32   of the situation, and I sincerely doubt that's the case.

01:25:35   It's time to turn the baby monitor on Mom so you can be aware of what's going on.

01:25:39   Actually, come to think of it, we did get an entire second baby monitor for Sprig, which

01:25:44   we planned, well, actually what we ended up doing was just pairing the second, the camera

01:25:49   from the other baby monitor to our existing baby monitor, but it was like 20 bucks more

01:25:53   to get the whole monitor rather than to just get an extra camera, you know what I mean,

01:25:57   or something like that. It was silly not to just get a whole redundant setup. So anyways,

01:26:02   I bring all this up to say I could hypothetically put that baby monitor camera back on Erin

01:26:07   and take the redundant monitor in here. But no, as far as I know, she's asleep, which

01:26:13   means if I sent her a text message right now, she'd probably be like, "Yep, it's coming

01:26:17   sooner rather than later, but we'll see.

01:26:19   - You think she's asleep right now?

01:26:21   - As far as I know, she was trying to.

01:26:24   - I mean, that's wise.

01:26:24   Honestly, you should be sleeping right now

01:26:26   if you're expecting this to happen.

01:26:27   - Yes, I know, Marco.

01:26:28   - Tonight or tomorrow.

01:26:29   (laughing)

01:26:30   - Indeed. - I can't be able

01:26:31   to get sleep.

01:26:32   Like with my first kid,

01:26:33   like my wife's water broke at midnight.

01:26:36   We were up, we were about to go to bed,

01:26:37   but it broke at midnight, and the doctor was like,

01:26:39   "You should just go to sleep and come to the hotel."

01:26:42   You come to the hotel, come to the hospital in the morning.

01:26:44   I don't think it's possible when you're having, certainly your first kid, and your wife's

01:26:50   water has broken, "Oh, we're just going to get some sleep now."

01:26:52   Yeah, sure.

01:26:53   Everyone will just nod right off.

01:26:56   Nothing will be occupying our minds that keeps us from sleeping.

01:26:59   So we just sat there in the bed, not sleeping, for five hours, then went to the hospital.

01:27:04   Oh, God.

01:27:05   I can't imagine.

01:27:06   Well, the thing is, especially for the women, like, granted, I haven't done this in a little

01:27:12   over three years, but pretty much shortly after they arrive at the hospital and get,

01:27:17   you know, an IV put in and all that, they're told, or at least in our experience, Aaron

01:27:21   was told, you can't eat anything anymore. And so because of that, you know, everything

01:27:26   becomes uncomfortable. Well, not that it wasn't already uncomfortable, but everything becomes

01:27:30   more uncomfortable for the woman once you arrive at the hospital. So for a lot of reasons,

01:27:34   most doctors will say, you know, for the best that you can, or to the best that you can,

01:27:40   to avoid coming into the hospital until like it's really getting on go time. And so, and

01:27:45   on the way into the hospital, go gorge yourself on some sort of fast food because especially

01:27:50   the mom is not going to be eating for a long time. So, as far as if I were to wager a guess,

01:27:56   unless something is going on in there that I'm not aware of, I think tomorrow morning

01:28:00   we're probably going to wake up, find somebody to, well, I mean, we have plenty of options,

01:28:04   but find somebody to take care of Declan and probably call it in.

01:28:07   Oh yeah, that reminds me, like, other than the system of notification, Declan's still

01:28:10   hanging out in your house snoozing away right now too.

01:28:12   What's the handoff plan there?

01:28:15   So we have neighbors that live very close by that, you know, like walkably close by

01:28:21   that could come over.

01:28:23   Erin's youngest sister is a short drive away, and Erin's mom is about 20 minutes away.

01:28:31   And so there's a multi-tiered approach that we can go to if we need to leave in the middle

01:28:38   of the night.

01:28:39   I'm getting flashback anxiety from the fact that you don't have someone in your house

01:28:42   right now on standby deckland duty.

01:28:45   The idea that you're going to have enough time for someone to show up at your house

01:28:49   so that you'll be able to divert, right?

01:28:51   Because my situation was we had a friend all lined up too.

01:28:54   All hours of the night, no worries.

01:28:56   Like if it's 3 a.m. in the time, just give us a call.

01:28:59   We'll be there.

01:29:00   And my friend was good to his word.

01:29:03   He, you know, was there.

01:29:05   But by the time he showed up, the baby was out.

01:29:08   So there's that.

01:29:11   Yeah.

01:29:12   Yeah.

01:29:13   I—that—honest to God, your birth story, your and Tina's birth story, that has weighed

01:29:18   on me heavily for the last month or two.

01:29:21   And I'm not saying that to be funny.

01:29:23   Like I really, really has.

01:29:24   Because so often, Erin will be like—Erin, not just her, I'll be like, you know, "Oh,

01:29:28   "Well, your mom will be here in like 20 minutes.

01:29:31   "I'm sure that'll be fine."

01:29:32   And then one of us will say to the other--

01:29:33   - It should be, it totally should be.

01:29:35   I mean, you know how long it was, Declan.

01:29:36   You have plenty of time.

01:29:38   - Exactly, and Declan was a very long birth,

01:29:40   and so it should be fine.

01:29:41   But then I think about Portina, who says,

01:29:44   "Hey, why don't you go get the neighbor,

01:29:45   "because I think it's time?"

01:29:46   And then next thing you know,

01:29:47   "Oh, there's your youngest in the bedroom, in your hands."

01:29:52   - There was a lot of screaming and blood

01:29:53   between those two phases, but yeah.

01:29:54   (laughing)

01:29:56   Oh my God.

01:29:58   Yeah, so I kid you not, I'll say it again, like your birth story, your mutual birth story

01:30:05   for when your daughter was born has weighed heavily on me, especially in the last month.

01:30:10   But for Declan, you know, it was, I think, Monday morning, it doesn't really matter,

01:30:15   but it was one morning, I think it was a Monday morning, that Erin woke up and was like, "Wow,

01:30:18   I'm having a lot of Braxton Hicks," and then went about her day. Then it was the middle

01:30:22   of the night Tuesday that it was becoming obvious that no, this was it. And we went

01:30:27   into the hospital, I want to say it was Tuesday morning, and you know, by the time, well,

01:30:32   we went to the OB to see if this was it, and the OB took literally, didn't even make her

01:30:38   second leg in the doorway to look at Erin. She only had one foot in the doorway, in the

01:30:43   examination room, and turned around and shouted down the hall, "Hey, can you call L&D? We

01:30:48   have one coming." And so that was a Tuesday morning, and Declan was born at like 5.30,

01:30:54   6 o'clock on Wednesday morning or something like that. So clearly not all of this was,

01:30:59   well it's easy for a dude to say this right, but not all of this was like the hyper intense labor,

01:31:03   but it was labor for like two full days. And so it stands to reason, he says, as he knocks on his

01:31:11   glass desk because there's no wood nearby, that Sprague will not make a "Your Youngest" styled

01:31:17   appearance. But we'll see about that. Is it possible, given Aaron's stated tolerance for

01:31:22   pain that you already have a second kid?

01:31:25   (laughing)

01:31:27   We were talking about the iMac Pro for a long time.

01:31:32   - That is true, and then cars even longer.

01:31:35   It is certainly possible.

01:31:36   I did send her a text message about 10 or 15 minutes ago,

01:31:38   and she has not responded, which means either she is trying

01:31:40   to sleep, is asleep, or there's a kid in the other room

01:31:43   and I just don't know it.

01:31:45   - I mean, you are on the other side of the house.

01:31:47   - Anything is possible.

01:31:48   Do you want me to go check?

01:31:49   Is that what you're trying to tell me?

01:31:51   But yeah, it's funny because Aaron and I, I don't know how much this comes across on

01:31:55   the show, and I mean I know you two know this, but for your average listener I don't know

01:31:58   if it's obvious, but Aaron and I are both like super duper type A, super anal retentive,

01:32:04   love to have every T crossed, every I dotted, every minute planned.

01:32:10   And it's funny because with this one, there's not a lot of planning you can do for a kid

01:32:15   unless you have a scheduled induction, which we do have for a few days from now, but it's

01:32:20   certainly not looking like we're gonna make it.

01:32:22   - Yeah, because the official due date was yesterday, right?

01:32:25   - No, it's today.

01:32:26   - Oh, okay.

01:32:27   - Yeah, so I mean, it's on schedule.

01:32:28   - Oh, so it could be right on time, yeah.

01:32:30   - Yeah, exactly, but I bring up us being in a retentive

01:32:34   because when it comes to Declan, we're basically like,

01:32:36   as soon as we have done that initial handoff

01:32:39   that you were asking about, Jon,

01:32:41   as soon as that happens, whatever, just somebody,

01:32:44   amongst my family, Aaron's family,

01:32:46   just figure it out amongst yourselves,

01:32:48   and make sure he's still alive in a day and a half

01:32:50   or whenever it is that we can get him in the hospital

01:32:52   so he can meet his little brother or little sister.

01:32:54   So it's been funny for us to just have to embrace

01:32:58   being that, I don't know, free-wheeling, if you will,

01:33:02   and just be like, "Hey, you know what?

01:33:04   "He's three years old, he's reasonably self-sufficient

01:33:08   "in the sense that he's not gonna live in a poopy diaper

01:33:11   "for 18 days because he's not using diapers except at night.

01:33:15   he's able to find, like in a desperation scenario,

01:33:18   for some reason, I'm sure he could scrounge up

01:33:19   a little bit of like crackers or something,

01:33:21   not to say we're gonna leave him home alone,

01:33:22   I'm just saying like, in the world-ending scenario--

01:33:25   - You hear that back then,

01:33:26   the new baby has already stolen your parents' love.

01:33:28   - Yeah, just like that, just like that.

01:33:30   - There's none left for you, sorry.

01:33:31   - Like you realize in these scenarios,

01:33:33   like you're going to jail.

01:33:34   - Oh yeah, yeah, exactly, we would never do that.

01:33:36   I'm just saying, you know, if for some reason

01:33:39   there was some sort of miscommunication,

01:33:40   and I don't know why my parents,

01:33:41   this is a terrible hypothetical, but you know what I mean.

01:33:43   - Do you have a thing planned where like,

01:33:44   where the new baby is gonna give Declan the present. We did that for a second.

01:33:48   You know, we've waffled back and forth on that, and we don't have a present, so I guess the answer's no.

01:33:53   I don't really have a good answer on it.

01:33:56   I see both sides of that story, and because we're so fresh off of Christmas and Hanukkah that

01:34:01   there's nothing that he's told us he's really seeking at the moment, you know what I mean?

01:34:06   And I know that doesn't mean we can't get him something anyway.

01:34:08   He doesn't know what he wants yet, but what he actually wants is not another sibling.

01:34:11   - Well, right now he's very enthusiastic

01:34:13   about his other sibling, but I know--

01:34:15   - Oh yeah, they're great when they're inside mommy.

01:34:16   - Exactly, yeah, this is all gonna change in just a minute.

01:34:20   - You know, they might get along,

01:34:21   but we did the gift, I don't know,

01:34:22   this is probably my wife's idea,

01:34:24   but I'm here to tell you it did not help.

01:34:26   And with my particular two children, it did not help.

01:34:29   - Maybe a strategy is you can give him a gift

01:34:32   that is worse than a new sibling in some way,

01:34:35   that seems like, man, when I was a kid,

01:34:37   I remember one Christmas, I begged and begged and begged,

01:34:40   only having seen it on commercials,

01:34:42   for the remote control Typhoon Hovercraft.

01:34:45   And boy was that terrible.

01:34:47   - Oh yeah, I had one of those.

01:34:48   - Why you don't let your kids watch commercials.

01:34:50   - Oh it was great, except it was terrible.

01:34:52   - You know, there's a reason why you don't see

01:34:54   a lot of hovercraft and news in the world.

01:34:56   And one of the reasons is,

01:34:57   you can't really steer them very well.

01:34:59   Turns out friction is really nice,

01:35:03   and they don't really have a lot of that.

01:35:05   And so, yeah, and also they're incredibly loud,

01:35:09   at least the little remote control one,

01:35:11   it's like two little hair dryers on the back of this thing

01:35:15   for the five minutes or so

01:35:17   that the battery lasts before it dies.

01:35:19   - I was just about to say,

01:35:20   because you're powering three different motors

01:35:22   off of this mid-90s, maybe even early 90s battery tech.

01:35:27   - Yeah, it was a big NiCad battery pack,

01:35:30   like the size of eight double A's,

01:35:32   one of those big yellow rectangles.

01:35:33   - Yep, oh man, it was truly terrible.

01:35:36   - It was no fun at all.

01:35:37   - Oh, who is this?

01:35:38   Who is this in the chat?

01:35:40   No, Chloe de Guzman, I'm sorry if I pronounced that wrong,

01:35:43   just put the link in the chat, and this is what I had.

01:35:46   Although I think mine was green, but this is what I had.

01:35:48   And oh my God, it was amazing for the two and a half minutes

01:35:52   it was working.

01:35:53   But it's funny because in this commercial

01:35:54   you see it running across water,

01:35:55   which hypothetically it should be able to do.

01:35:58   - Oh no, you can't do that.

01:35:59   - But that's the thing, because if you take your finger

01:36:02   off the throttle for even the slightest moment,

01:36:05   then the, I don't remember the term for it,

01:36:07   the bag under it, like the buoyancy bag, will deflate. Yes, the skirt, thank you. The buoyancy

01:36:13   bag, the skirt, the whatever, will instantly deflate and then you sink your hovercraft

01:36:17   and that's that. So you have to like really, really commit if you're going to go across

01:36:22   water. And I think possibly the most stressful moment of my childhood was when I did put

01:36:26   it in a pool for like five seconds and drive it, you know, and I think I was standing within

01:36:30   like arm's reach of it so if it started to sink I could grab it because I loved this

01:36:34   thing even though it was a colossal piece of garbage like I would just try

01:36:38   to play with it indoors and you just can't like you're crashing into walls

01:36:41   constantly like there's nowhere you can go with it and then yeah like I remember

01:36:45   like at the lake I saw somebody have one and they broke it because they took it

01:36:50   onto the water the back end of it sunk down for a split second and when they

01:36:54   put the fans back on the the propeller of one of the rear like propulsion fans

01:37:00   hit the surface of the water and just broke like it was just these things are

01:37:04   not built well, and yeah, this was just not,

01:37:07   it was such a bad toy.

01:37:08   Anyway, so I'm saying if you get Declan one of these

01:37:10   as his new awesome gift, it is so much worse

01:37:14   than having a new baby that he might then see the baby

01:37:17   as like the upgrade.

01:37:18   - You know, Marco, I gotta be honest with you.

01:37:21   I think, you know, we've known each other

01:37:22   something like 20 years, and we're pretty darn good friends,

01:37:25   and I'm gonna have to tell you

01:37:27   I'm a little disappointed in you,

01:37:28   because clearly the right answer for a gift for Declan

01:37:32   is either a brand new M3 or a brand new Wrangler.

01:37:35   (laughing)

01:37:36   That's the only reasonable solution to this problem,

01:37:38   am I right? - No, M2.

01:37:39   Honestly, the M2 is the better car for your purposes.

01:37:42   I mean, the only thing is that, yeah,

01:37:43   you do lose the four-doorness of the M3.

01:37:45   So in that way, I guess you probably should get an M3

01:37:48   'cause it's the more continuation of what you already have.

01:37:51   But as an enthusiast's car,

01:37:54   I really think the M2 is the way to go.

01:37:57   Not to mention, it's probably a much better value.

01:37:59   Downside, of course, being, as you mentioned earlier,

01:38:01   that there's not that many of them,

01:38:03   and most of them are not used.

01:38:05   And yeah, of course, two doors.

01:38:08   - And now that you're on the automatic bandwagon,

01:38:11   and BMW I still think is in a--

01:38:13   - Whoa, slow down, slow down.

01:38:14   - BMW is in a down period, you should consider

01:38:17   something like the Muro's car, like an E63 AMG

01:38:22   or the modern one. - Oh, I've thought about it.

01:38:23   - These are fast, high quality, four-door cars

01:38:26   with plenty of room that are very safe, reliable,

01:38:29   not that cheap if you get an old one,

01:38:30   or not that expensive if you get an old one.

01:38:32   And you'll be fine with the automatic.

01:38:35   You don't need to shift anymore.

01:38:36   - You're talking about good Mercedeses?

01:38:37   Aren't you too young for that?

01:38:38   - Yeah, I mean, like in the current generation of cars,

01:38:42   like I said, BMW didn't finish

01:38:46   in any of the car and drivers 10 best

01:38:48   for like the first time in a very, very long time.

01:38:51   And there are Mercedes in there.

01:38:52   The Mercedes E, especially the AMG ones are fast and fancy.

01:38:56   I mean, the Giulia is still a better car than them,

01:38:58   But the Mercedes are probably more reliable,

01:39:01   definitely more swanky, and we know how Casey

01:39:03   needs to be babied in his old age.

01:39:05   - No, but the problem is he's old enough.

01:39:07   Like, okay, like 15 years ago,

01:39:09   WRX would have been the right move.

01:39:11   15 years from now, Casey might be Mercedes.

01:39:15   But right now, Casey?

01:39:16   - No, you got the wrong image of Mercedes.

01:39:18   This is not your father's Mercedes.

01:39:19   Plus, as soon as that second baby arrives,

01:39:20   it will age him instantly, like 10 more years, so.

01:39:23   It's a multiplier for, it's a multiplying

01:39:25   for how old you feel.

01:39:27   He's still gonna do five more years before they're gonna let him into a Mercedes dealer.

01:39:30   No, you get the AMG ones, it's fine.

01:39:33   Actually, to speak about how old and entitled I am, who was I talking to just the other

01:39:38   day?

01:39:39   Shoot.

01:39:40   Oh, it was my buddy who just got the brand new Accord, coincidentally.

01:39:44   And he was saying that he had to bring his in.

01:39:46   I think he was getting like an aftermarket but dealer installed.

01:39:51   Oh, Erin is awake and she has not had the kid.

01:39:54   Real time follow up.

01:39:55   Alright, good.

01:39:56   - Baby's still inside wife, repeat, baby's still inside wife.

01:40:00   - And it seems that things are just not regular,

01:40:04   so whatever, anyway.

01:40:06   - Are things ever regular?

01:40:07   - Fair point.

01:40:09   The accord guy took his car in for service

01:40:11   to get some aftermarket thing installed,

01:40:12   I forget what it was, I think it was like a rear USB charger

01:40:16   or whatever, I think there was a Honda part

01:40:19   that he could have installed so you could charge something

01:40:21   via USB in the back.

01:40:22   Anyway, he was talking about how he had to go to Enterprise

01:40:25   to get a loaner and I was just like,

01:40:27   my face kind of imploded.

01:40:29   It was like that, ugh, like that,

01:40:31   oh God, you have to go to get a loaner?

01:40:33   Like they don't just give you one?

01:40:35   - Oh yeah, so this is the show how you can't go back again

01:40:39   to live like the little people.

01:40:40   - Right, no, I'm serious.

01:40:42   Like in all, I'm saying this partially to be funny,

01:40:45   but I mean, I really did have that brief reaction of like,

01:40:48   oh God, that's right, you would have to like go somewhere

01:40:50   to get a rental and that just sounds fricking terrible.

01:40:54   And like, listen to how obnoxious and entitled I am.

01:40:56   Like, I'm not proud of this. I'm really not.

01:40:58   I'm just saying, as soon as you cross that threshold

01:41:01   into quote unquote luxury automobiles,

01:41:04   you start to get used to this thing.

01:41:06   And it's hard.

01:41:07   Like, this is why I can understand why all these like

01:41:10   athletes and movie stars and whatnot are entitled (beep)

01:41:13   because once you get exposed to that, it's like,

01:41:15   well, I don't want to go back to having to worry

01:41:17   about going down to one car while my car gets serviced.

01:41:20   That seems barbaric.

01:41:22   And then I, then the next thought that goes through my head

01:41:24   is, "Wow, Casey, you're an a**hole." It's like it's really not a big deal.

01:41:29   Fair point, fair point.

01:41:32   The one tip, though, for people who are for peons like me who have Hondas and go to Honda

01:41:37   dealerships is, depending on your dealership, you can find—my dealership, speaking of

01:41:42   enterprise—has enterprise rental counter right in the dealership. And if you get any

01:41:47   significant amount of service done, you get the rental for free. So essentially, you get

01:41:50   loaner Honda for free as part of your service without having to go in anywhere.

01:41:55   So it's like the, I mean, I'm not going to say low rent, but it's the equivalent version

01:41:59   of so you bring in your BMW, here's a BMW to drive.

01:42:02   So you bring in your Honda, here's a Honda to drive.

01:42:04   No charge if you're, the thing, whatever you're having done is above some minimum amount of

01:42:08   money and if you're going to a dealer, it probably is because dealers charge a million

01:42:11   dollars for everything, even Honda dealers.

01:42:14   But yeah, it's a little bit different not having that be an amenity of the dealer but

01:42:18   having it be like, "Well, we have this relationship with enterprise."

01:42:23   And I've never paid for an enterprise rental, but I have gotten free enterprise rentals

01:42:26   many times.

01:42:27   How I know how much I hate all of the Honda Accords that I didn't buy is all from essentially

01:42:33   loaner cars, one of my cars getting serviced.

01:42:35   The other way I do it, how the way the little people do it is I sit there and wait for my

01:42:39   car to be done.

01:42:40   I've done that from time to time.

01:42:42   And so confession, my first thought was going to be

01:42:46   to complain about my local BMW service,

01:42:49   like a waiting area, because it just isn't as cushy

01:42:51   and nice as some other BMW dealers I've been to.

01:42:53   How far gone am I?

01:42:55   Like how much of a friggin' jerk am I

01:42:57   that the first thought that jumps through my head is,

01:42:59   yeah, but John, you don't understand that the service area

01:43:02   in this local BMW is just okay.

01:43:04   Like it's very nice.

01:43:05   - The service area, you mean a bunch of chairs

01:43:07   shoved next to a water cooler?

01:43:08   - Right, that's what I'm saying.

01:43:10   Like how obnoxious am I?

01:43:12   Like I need to get a regular person's car so I don't lose myself forever.

01:43:18   I need to buy like a pedestrian Civic.

01:43:20   Oh, God, I'm so terrible.

01:43:23   Well, it's different amounts of luxury because the number of valve trains I've ever had explode

01:43:27   in any of my cars is zero, so I have that going for me.

01:43:30   That's true.

01:43:31   Yeah, I mean, I don't need a loaner if the thing is never getting serviced for more than

01:43:35   an hour at a time.

01:43:36   I've never had a repair that has cost as much as my car was worth.

01:43:40   Truth too soon. Oh

01:43:42   So that repair if you didn't pay for it, right because it was like warranty or whatever

01:43:46   But if you had paid for it, it would have been like five grand or something the the valvetrain issue

01:43:51   Yeah, it was like five or six grand of which I paid

01:43:53   I think five or ten percent of it what ended up happening was well for all the things that were done during that visit

01:43:57   I think the total bill was like six grand of which I paid about a thousand

01:44:02   And so what was the value of your car at that time? You had a $6,000 repair

01:44:06   20 to 30 thousand I think and now it's probably 10 to 20 thousand

01:44:10   I'd see you were like a quarter quarter of the value of your car and repair

01:44:13   Yeah, I mean it's something like that and then that remember it happened again about a year year and a half later

01:44:19   But they covered that not literally under warranty. I guess but it's scheduled. It's coming up soon right your next one

01:44:24   Why you do this I

01:44:28   Was that I was thinking of you when I was reading oh, this is scary

01:44:33   I don't remember I was reading it.

01:44:35   It might have been a paper magazine.

01:44:36   It might have been the internet.

01:44:36   It's really hard to tell these days.

01:44:38   But it was talking about BMW's electric car programs

01:44:41   and how battery technology is getting better

01:44:44   and BMW engineering bragging that their sort of like service

01:44:48   lifetime of their electric cars is exactly the same

01:44:51   as it is for their gasoline cars.

01:44:53   And all I could think was, that's

01:44:55   nothing to brag about given the apparent service

01:44:57   lifetime of Casey's car.

01:44:58   Like, it's like, this battery will last you 15 years.

01:45:01   Mm.

01:45:02   Mm.

01:45:03   I don't know.

01:45:04   They're like 70% capacity after 15 years of use.

01:45:07   It's like, well, what is the service lifetime of,

01:45:10   how old is your car now, though?

01:45:12   - It just had its seventh birthday.

01:45:13   Like, it was delivered to the original owner

01:45:15   in early December of 2010.

01:45:17   - I feel like that's not a 15-year service lifetime.

01:45:20   - I mean, it is, like, again,

01:45:24   I'm very frustrated with my car,

01:45:25   but really in the grand scheme of things,

01:45:27   like, this was a pretty significant repair,

01:45:30   a very significant repair,

01:45:32   But in the grand scheme of things, like the car sitting here now, as far as I'm aware,

01:45:36   I drove it earlier today, the car is operating very, very well.

01:45:43   It has a few squeaks and a few rattles, but nothing too terribly egregious.

01:45:49   It's really running pretty darn well.

01:45:50   The thing is, I've had to pour way more money into it than I think I should have had to,

01:45:56   and that's the problem I have with it.

01:45:57   This is in comparison to Erin's Mazda, which I was happy to get rid of, but that thing,

01:46:02   we took delivery on her birthday in 2007, 2007.

01:46:08   So that was August of 2007, and we got rid of it in July of 2017.

01:46:13   And I think we might have done an alternator once, and I think we did a battery.

01:46:19   And other than that, it was just like tires and brakes and normal wear items.

01:46:23   And so in 10 years, we put, let's get aggressive, and let's say we put like two grand of non-ware

01:46:31   item worth of repair into that Mazda.

01:46:34   In 10 years, and I did that in 10 minutes when my valve train exploded for the first

01:46:39   time.

01:46:40   You know what I mean?

01:46:41   So it's hard because on the one side I feel like, oh, this thing has been, on the whole,

01:46:46   reasonably reliable if you discount all the times that it exploded for a week.

01:46:51   As much as I am slightly bothered by Doug DeMuro videos, one thing I have to admit that

01:46:56   he has going for him is he picks interesting cars to review.

01:46:59   Not the new ones, obviously, because whatever everyone's doing, fancy new cars.

01:47:03   Or not even the fancy exotic ones, but when he goes to older cars, he tends to pick cars

01:47:06   at the very least that have some meaning to me.

01:47:08   And the most recent one he did was the late 80s, very early 90s Mercedes S-Class.

01:47:16   I saw that that was a thing, but I'm way behind on YouTube because I'm way behind on podcasts.

01:47:20   Yeah, my friend's dad had one of those that he bought used.

01:47:24   He didn't buy it new.

01:47:26   He owned his own business and he had some money, but not new Mercedes money, but he

01:47:29   had used Mercedes money.

01:47:30   And I took a couple of trips with his family in that car.

01:47:34   I think that's where I started to get super impressed by Mercedes because even just being

01:47:39   a passenger, the difference in every aspect of that car, even from the fancy yuppie cars,

01:47:44   my parents had a series of Volvos and stuff and Hondas and before that a bunch of American

01:47:50   junk cars. It was very impressive, so I've just started that video. But it's really

01:47:54   taken me back to see the switch gear on the '80s Mercedes. And those Mercedes, I mean,

01:48:01   they're not sporty cars. Let's put it this way. But they just felt so solid, and every

01:48:05   part of it was so ridiculously over-engineered. Very German in the best possible way. Sometimes

01:48:13   I think that you might be happier with an older, used car that you get cheaper, that

01:48:18   it's so old that you know you're going to be sinking money into it, but you pick it based on like

01:48:22   character or nostalgia or you know something like that where you

01:48:25   instead of going for it has to be like

01:48:28   Modern super fast like resign yourself to actually getting a slow old card that has a lot of character

01:48:33   Maybe that's what the Wrangler is to you. I don't know in which case you should not buy a new Wrangler

01:48:36   You should buy a used one

01:48:37   So the the real answer to what you're describing is I would

01:48:44   Kill almost everyone I knew for an e39 m5. So this is early 2000s. It's six speed only

01:48:51   v8 about 400 horsepower and

01:48:54   the in a lot of ways, I think that's the right answer because

01:48:58   They can be had for I last I looked which is a long time ago between 10 and 20 thousand dollars for a reasonable

01:49:05   Example that hasn't been too badly obliterated

01:49:08   but the thing is as

01:49:11   as they get older and older and older, they get more and more and more finicky and thus

01:49:16   require more and more and more repairs. So now I'm trading a reasonably modern BMW that's

01:49:21   constantly in need of repair. For an older and more interesting BMW, that's constantly

01:49:27   in need of repair.

01:49:28   But it costs way less. Like, just set aside double the price of the car for repairs for

01:49:32   the next eight years. Like Marco was saying. And you still come out ahead versus buying

01:49:36   a brand new Mercedes at some ridiculous price once you add all the options in.

01:49:39   - Yeah, like the price of getting a car new

01:49:43   is so much more than maintaining an old one,

01:49:46   generally speaking.

01:49:47   If what you're concerned about is total long-term value,

01:49:50   Jon's right.

01:49:51   - Well, and that's why I bought the BMW used,

01:49:53   is I suppose if you balance the checkbook, if you will,

01:49:58   we could have afforded to buy a new 335,

01:50:02   but it would have been a financially unwise decision to make

01:50:06   And that's why, you know, I saved like 15 grand off the sticker by buying the car that I just told you was delivered in December 2010.

01:50:13   I bought it in September 2012 and saved like 15 grand.

01:50:16   And the reason that I'm harping on new cars for me, because otherwise,

01:50:21   were it not for what I'm about to tell you, I would absolutely be looking at either lightly used new-ish cars or something ancient like John's describing.

01:50:30   But the problem I have is that I've gotten it in my brain, for better or worse, that I

01:50:35   really, really do not want to buy a car that does not support CarPlay.

01:50:39   Because to my eyes, that kind of future-proofs the infotainment in a way that my car can't be. And I can get updates for

01:50:46   infotainment to some degree,

01:50:48   but it's never going to change the fact that it's like a 5 pixel by 5 pixel display, and that it's got a

01:50:53   terribly slow processor that can't handle zooming. Like, remember Marco when we were in the M5 and I zoomed the

01:51:00   the map for the first time, or maybe you zoomed the map,

01:51:02   and I was like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

01:51:04   It actually zooms, it doesn't just jump between zoom levels,

01:51:07   it actually animates the zoom, and it blew my mind.

01:51:10   And so because of that, I've gotten it in my brain

01:51:13   that I want something with CarPlay,

01:51:16   and I'm pretty darn sure the Wrangler has it,

01:51:18   I know the Golf R has it.

01:51:21   That's part of the reason why,

01:51:22   that and the sunroof are reasons why I genuinely

01:51:24   don't think money no object I would have the Alfa Romeo,

01:51:27   because it does not support CarPlay,

01:51:29   and the infotainment system was at best mediocre.

01:51:32   And so, if you look at my obnoxious requirements,

01:51:37   like I'm the world's worst consulting client, right?

01:51:39   Because I want three pedals that go zero to 60

01:51:43   in five-ish seconds that's not front-wheel drive,

01:51:46   that supports CarPlay, that has a sunroof.

01:51:49   You know, these requirements, the only thing,

01:51:52   and this comes back around to what Marco was saying,

01:51:54   pretty much the only thing that meets all these requirements

01:51:56   is a brand new 340.

01:51:58   But the other requirement I have is not BMW, so now what?

01:52:01   - Your requirements are so defined

01:52:03   by your experience with BMW though.

01:52:05   Like, that's what I'm saying.

01:52:06   Like, you know, if you get an older car,

01:52:08   forget about car play, just take your phone,

01:52:10   get a phone thing that clips into the vents

01:52:12   and shove your phone in the dash.

01:52:13   There's your busy navigation.

01:52:15   Now it will never go out of date.

01:52:16   You keep buying new phones and clip them in the clip.

01:52:19   And then just get a car with character

01:52:21   that has some sort of nostalgia value

01:52:22   that you can get cheap,

01:52:23   that you will put $5,000 into every single year

01:52:26   and it'll just be your little hobby fun thing.

01:52:28   And it will be slow, it'll be slower than a Civic Type R or whatever, but you know,

01:52:31   just I don't know, I don't know.

01:52:35   I guess maybe the Mac Pro strategy is the thing to do and just keep on keeping on until

01:52:40   that thing really explodes for good.

01:52:43   I mean, that very well may be the thing.

01:52:45   And actually it was funny because just before we got on the microphones tonight, I was brushing

01:52:51   my teeth and I was thinking to myself, you know what, if I really am serious about this,

01:52:56   Consulting or whatever, you know thing I want to do instead of a job job

01:53:00   If I'm really serious about this the number one thing change

01:53:05   I need to make in my life is to not be telling myself

01:53:08   Well, you know you might be able to swing a new card in 2018

01:53:11   The first thing that needs to happen is I don't drop it

01:53:15   You know thousands upon thousands of dollars on a new car even something new to me

01:53:19   Like I do not need to be getting anything new and to your point John

01:53:23   I need to just drive my BMW until it falls apart or at least at the very least drive my BMW until I've proven to

01:53:29   Myself that you know Casey lists incorporated is making money. You know what I mean? And and that's not a bad thing

01:53:35   That's that's a perfectly fine decision to make it's just a less exciting decision to make

01:53:40   Well, but you know, this is like this is going to be a year of lots of changes

01:53:45   You know like even if you don't change your job situation

01:53:49   you still are gonna have a second kid in like three minutes.

01:53:52   And so that's gonna be a huge massive change

01:53:56   in addition to just all of the developmental stages

01:53:59   and things that Declan is going through during this time.

01:54:02   So you're gonna have a big change this year.

01:54:05   You might be, in many ways, this might be a bad time

01:54:09   to buy a new car because you're just too busy

01:54:11   with other stuff.

01:54:13   You know, buying a car, especially for somebody like you

01:54:15   who cares about it, is a time-consuming endeavor

01:54:19   as you know, because you just bought the Volvo

01:54:20   like two weeks ago or whatever.

01:54:22   Like you know how much time it consumes

01:54:25   to go through that process.

01:54:27   You also therefore can probably see

01:54:29   like even if money wasn't the problem,

01:54:33   it's still not probably a good idea

01:54:36   for you, car nerd Casey who cares a lot about things,

01:54:40   to embark on that kind of mission right now.

01:54:44   You know?

01:54:45   - Well, let me get this straight.

01:54:46   Starting a consulting business, good time.

01:54:49   - Buying a car, no you're too busy.

01:54:50   (laughing)

01:54:51   - Yeah, honestly, yes.

01:54:53   Because look, your job stuff is going through

01:54:55   a bunch of transitions regardless,

01:54:57   'cause you have this time off,

01:54:59   and you have this new person that they hired or whatever,

01:55:02   that you know, so you have like, you know,

01:55:04   training and time off, and then you're gonna have to go back

01:55:07   and get plunged into the deep end of,

01:55:10   oh my god, I'm back to work again in two months or whatever,

01:55:12   and that's going to suck completely,

01:55:16   no matter how happy you are with that job

01:55:18   and how happy they are with you,

01:55:19   that's gonna be a massive transition to jump from,

01:55:23   from basically, from like, you know,

01:55:24   paternity leave, full-time dad at home,

01:55:26   to still having to be full-time dad at home,

01:55:30   and also then jumping back into work.

01:55:33   Like, that's a huge transition.

01:55:35   So, it's going to be a very busy spring for you.

01:55:39   Even if you don't go back to,

01:55:42   like even if you don't do consulting

01:55:43   instead of going back to work,

01:55:45   it's still gonna be a very busy spring for you.

01:55:47   So it's only a question of which of these busy paths

01:55:52   you take, but to add on top of that,

01:55:55   buying a new car as a car enthusiast,

01:55:57   I don't think it's a good time for that.

01:55:58   - Well, I see both sides of this, right?

01:56:00   Because part of the reason it took us forever

01:56:02   to buy the Volvo is because we were trying to extract

01:56:05   the lowest possible price that we could achieve

01:56:08   from several different dealers

01:56:10   in several different states, right?

01:56:12   But if I, and that's partially because the Volvo was,

01:56:15   if I'm honest, a little outside the price

01:56:17   we were willing to pay, but we were, you know, reaching. Just like, you know, a first-time home

01:56:20   buyer, at least this was my experience. When we bought the house we're in now, you know, we, we

01:56:25   found it even despite the fact that it was more expensive than we told ourselves we would, we

01:56:29   would be willing to pay. But anyways, I think if I really was hell-bent on buying a car, and I had

01:56:40   carte blanche from Erin to do it, which I think, you know, if I looked at her and said, "No, really,

01:56:45   it's time I need to get one. I don't think she would really be opposed to it. But anyways,

01:56:49   if I think within a day or most a weekend, I could drive the three to six cars I would

01:56:56   like to drive to try them out to see what I think. And if I'm not nickel and diming

01:57:00   the dealer to death over every little thing, I think I could have it done in a weekend.

01:57:06   Like I understand what you're saying, Marco, and the typical Casey approach is to nickel

01:57:10   and dime and to email every dealer in a three to five state radius and say, this is what

01:57:14   what I want and what's the best price you can give

01:57:16   and then argue with them when they inevitably

01:57:18   don't tell me the best price they can give

01:57:20   because they're incentivized not to tell me

01:57:21   the best price they can give.

01:57:22   - Well even beyond that, there's the research beforehand.

01:57:25   There's all the thinking and reading and stuff

01:57:28   you're doing beforehand.

01:57:29   - Yeah, but I do that constantly anyway.

01:57:30   - That's true.

01:57:31   But like there's all that.

01:57:32   Then even, you know, then you get the car,

01:57:35   then you have to do registrations and license,

01:57:37   like all like there's paperwork to have a car.

01:57:40   There's things that you have to like change

01:57:42   or activate about the new car, about your various,

01:57:45   there's a lot of overhead to it.

01:57:47   And if you're gonna be spending a lot of overhead

01:57:52   in the next few months on something,

01:57:55   I think priority one is baby, priority two is Declan,

01:57:58   priority three is Aaron, priority four is yourself,

01:58:02   and then priority five is job situation.

01:58:04   And then maybe priority 11 is,

01:58:07   oh, I kinda want a new car also.

01:58:09   This is such a weird time to do that.

01:58:12   Like, you know, it's just not, yeah, that's not good.

01:58:15   - Fair.

01:58:16   I don't know, Jon, you've been quiet.

01:58:17   What are you thinking?

01:58:18   - I'm thinking you should go to bed.

01:58:19   - I like that idea.

01:58:20   - Get all that restful sleep that you're gonna get.

01:58:23   - Get to sleep while you can.

01:58:24   (laughs)

01:58:25   - No, I was saying, I think you're probably

01:58:27   not gonna get a lot of sleep, especially if--

01:58:28   - No, I know, I know.

01:58:29   - Yeah.

01:58:30   - Well, I guess we're gonna lose this.

01:58:32   I guess you're not gonna have a baby on the air.

01:58:35   - Let's pick some titles.

01:58:36   It's still not time.

01:58:37   - Oh, God bless America, you're right.

01:58:39   - Would it be insensitive for me,

01:58:41   like if Aaron ran in to say this is time,

01:58:43   would it be insensitive of me to ask you

01:58:45   to please put your file in Dropbox before you go?

01:58:47   (laughing)

01:58:49   - Actually, yes, because I'm gonna bring my adorable with me

01:58:52   and as you both well know, unless it's a--

01:58:55   - No, you're not.

01:58:55   He'll have plenty of time while she's, you know,

01:58:59   - Seriously, yeah. - Doing the hard work

01:59:00   of birthing a baby, he'll be sitting there

01:59:02   tapping away on his laptop.

01:59:03   How's it going over there?

01:59:04   - Well, no, well, maybe a lot of it's just waiting.

01:59:06   No, I'm serious, I had my computer with me.

01:59:08   - She's waiting for you, yeah.

01:59:10   I had my computer with me when Declan was born, and up until the overnight, when he

01:59:16   was born, like I said earlier, he was born at like five in the morning, up until that

01:59:20   overnight portion, she was basically just waiting around getting, what's the drug that

01:59:24   makes the, that they use for induction?

01:59:26   Patosyn?

01:59:27   Thank you, yes.

01:59:28   You know, she was getting her Patosyn drip or whatever and just kind of waiting.

01:59:32   It took forever to get to the point that it was all hands on deck, this is it.

01:59:36   And so I had a computer, and I don't remember what we were doing, but I definitely had some

01:59:41   downtime.

01:59:42   In fact, you should have seen Erin's face when I asked her where my Switch was, and

01:59:45   I told her it was because I wanted to bring it so we could play Mario Kart together.

01:59:48   She did not find that funny at all.

01:59:51   I thought it was hilarious, and I was also serious, but she did not see the humor in

01:59:55   it at all.

01:59:56   Anyway—

01:59:57   I mean, if you're gonna bring the Switch, you gotta at least bring a Pro Controller

01:59:59   for her so that she's comfortable while using it.

02:00:02   Right?

02:00:03   I mean I will, I was debating bringing the dock, but I won't, but I will have a HDMI adapter.

02:00:08   What are you even plugging it to?

02:00:09   The TV in the room.

02:00:11   Why not?

02:00:12   Okay, he's got a whole little setup over there. He's got snacks. He's got a switch. He's got a little TV set up.

02:00:17   He's got a fan blowing on him.

02:00:19   You bringing like a dorm fridge?

02:00:21   We have snacks packed, don't even worry.

02:00:24   Sir, the birthing tub is for your wife.

02:00:31   I've actually I've been I've been trying to get the most recent

02:00:35   Episode of this is us on to my adorable

02:00:38   So we so the two of us can watch that while she's just sitting there waiting for things to happen

02:00:41   But anyway, so she sees it just sitting there like waiting

02:00:46   Is that some degree because she knows how Declan went and she knows that there was a lot of sitting and waiting

02:00:51   But here again, there's Tina's second old Tina and John's second birth where it's like, oh you sure

02:00:56   You're gonna be doing a lot of sitting and waiting cuz yeah

02:00:58   I mean it'll almost surely go faster than the first but how much faster who knows if it's half the time

02:01:03   It's still many many hours right exactly exactly anyway. We should do titles. I've my pick is a heroic threshold for pain in honor of Aaron

02:01:11   [BEEPING]

02:01:15   [ Silence ]