255: The Thermal Paste Lottery


00:00:00   He didn't follow my go-to statement that even Casey missed.

00:00:02   I'll move it up.

00:00:03   There you go.

00:00:04   Go-to fail.

00:00:05   Nice.

00:00:06   Because it didn't want you to just running off the end, like you got to end up going

00:00:09   back to Ask ATP and then I guess you just run off the end again and it loops.

00:00:13   What can you do?

00:00:14   It's basic.

00:00:16   Last we spoke, which feels like 13 years ago, or maybe it was just last year, I guess.

00:00:20   It was exactly seven days ago.

00:00:21   Was it really?

00:00:22   Oh, God.

00:00:23   I'm so out of whack.

00:00:24   You forgot the joke already?

00:00:25   It hasn't been that long.

00:00:26   Yeah, I know.

00:00:27   - It hasn't been that long.

00:00:28   - Yeah, I know.

00:00:29   As soon as I said, "Was it real?"

00:00:30   I was like, "No, wait, he's making the joke again."

00:00:33   No, I've been off for two weeks, so I haven't had a job,

00:00:36   and it's totally screwed up my schedule.

00:00:38   - We're gonna talk about that, by the way.

00:00:40   I know it's not in the list,

00:00:40   but we're gonna talk about that.

00:00:42   - Oh, God, okay, anyway.

00:00:43   So exactly seven days ago is what I said.

00:00:45   It was before Apple issued their December 28th memo

00:00:51   entitled "A Message to Our Customers

00:00:52   "About iPhone Batteries and Performance."

00:00:54   So this is Apple trying to do some PR cleanup about the battery gate, if you will.

00:01:02   The last time we spoke, this hadn't been shared yet.

00:01:06   A lot of people seemed semi-angry with us that we didn't take Apple to task more about

00:01:12   this.

00:01:13   A lot of people deeply believe that the only reasonable explanation for this battery stuff

00:01:17   isn't science, it isn't chemistry, it's greed.

00:01:21   The only logical explanation for this is that Apple's greedy and wants us to buy new phones.

00:01:24   So anyway, so Apple's been doing a lot of cleanup.

00:01:27   I'm satisfied with this, but I was obviously the least punchy about this issue in the first

00:01:33   place.

00:01:34   So I don't know.

00:01:35   Jon, you haven't had much to say.

00:01:36   Let's start with you.

00:01:37   How do you feel about this PR push?

00:01:39   Does this make you feel better, worse, different, don't care?

00:01:42   Tell me.

00:01:43   I thought the PR message was good.

00:01:44   Apple's usually pretty good with PR.

00:01:45   You can read it and it uses regular English sentences and explains things in a straightforward

00:01:51   way without tons of weasel words in it. I mean it's not going to convince anybody who's still

00:01:55   convinced that Apple is, you know, doing evil things on purpose, whatever. But, you know,

00:01:59   it's straightforward and I think it's worth linking to for people who haven't read it because

00:02:03   like very often companies will put out a press release and you'll kind of have to read your,

00:02:10   you know, the, you know, whatever the the tech side of your choice to get an explanation of what

00:02:16   what the press release says, you know, right?

00:02:19   But in the case of Apple's things,

00:02:21   I think you can just read the press release.

00:02:23   Like you don't need someone to interpret

00:02:26   and to translate from corporate ease into regular language.

00:02:30   And again, it doesn't mean you're gonna find it convincing

00:02:31   or like, oh, now I'm convinced before I didn't believe it,

00:02:34   but Apple said, Apple told me

00:02:35   they're not doing anything wrong

00:02:36   and now I believe, whatever.

00:02:37   Like, but anyway, you can read it and hear an explanation.

00:02:40   And it is typically vague

00:02:42   'cause they don't wanna go into super techie details.

00:02:44   And I still have some curiosity about the super techie details, mostly because I want

00:02:51   to have something else I can tell people who have questions about it.

00:02:58   I know this is just about the press release and we'll get to the little thing that Renee

00:03:02   Ritchie tweeted about it in a second.

00:03:04   But the question I have, and maybe you guys know the answer, maybe you read something

00:03:08   more about it, is that because a lot of people are wondering, "Hey, is my iPhone, is this

00:03:13   happening to my iPhone. Right? So there's lots of people say, oh, you can run this thing,

00:03:16   it'll check your battery health and if it's below a certain percentage, then it's probably

00:03:19   doing it and blah, blah, blah. But the other way people have to test it is, uh, you know,

00:03:25   I'll run a benchmark and you know, my wife has a brand new version of the same phone

00:03:32   as me and she runs a benchmark and it gets this number and I run on my phone with an

00:03:36   old battery and I get that number or I run the benchmark and then I get my battery replaced

00:03:40   then I run the benchmark again.

00:03:42   Like the idea that running benchmarks

00:03:43   and getting some numbers as a way to sort of gauge

00:03:47   whether you're subject to the throttling.

00:03:48   And the question I have about this,

00:03:50   and I don't know the answer to it,

00:03:51   but like I think might be sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy

00:03:55   is if Apple's throttling thing is there to,

00:04:00   as Apple says, and as most people seem to agree,

00:04:03   like mechanically speaking, like how does it actually work?

00:04:05   Like that it clocks things down

00:04:09   to prevent sort of the maximum power draw like these, these things that they run at

00:04:13   their maximum speed and they draw the most power that they can draw. Sometimes it's just

00:04:17   too much and the battery old batteries can't keep up. And so what they're trying to do

00:04:21   by downclocking is to rent you from ever drawing that much, right? But during normal use, like

00:04:29   my question is, is it downclock all the time? Like from boot time on, it's like we'd normally

00:04:34   we would run your thing at, you know, 1 GHz, but now we're running it at 800 MHz, so

00:04:39   if I just make it up numbers, these aren't real. And we just run it that way from the

00:04:43   boot time on, and we never change the clock speed, it's 800 instead of 1 GHz the whole

00:04:48   time. Or does it downclock in response to demand? In other words, it's running at full

00:04:54   speed until you go and try to run something extremely intensive like a benchmark, and

00:04:59   then it downclocks you because if it didn't downclock you, you would see that you're about

00:05:03   to draw too much power. I don't know the answer to that, but I think if that is the case,

00:05:07   if it's dynamically downclocking, then by running a benchmark, you are forcing your

00:05:14   phone into the downclock mode, and for all you know, when you're sitting there reading

00:05:19   Twitter or sending text messages, it is actually running at full speed all the time, and it

00:05:22   only gets downclocked when you do something demanding. So again, I don't know the answer,

00:05:26   and that's a place where I wish Apple would be more forthcoming with the technical details,

00:05:31   But obviously that's not gonna be in a press release.

00:05:34   And so far I haven't seen any official word from Apple

00:05:36   explaining in nitty gritty detail exactly what it does

00:05:39   to your clock speed.

00:05:41   - I don't wanna get too far into the weeds on this.

00:05:44   I did wanna mention there was a great discussion

00:05:47   about lots of different sides of this issue,

00:05:49   not just how Apple has done the PR and everything,

00:05:51   but a lot of very good questions being brought up

00:05:54   on last week's episode of the talk show

00:05:56   with Jon Gruber and Jason Snell.

00:05:58   It's the talk show episode number 210 for the show notes.

00:06:01   And it was a really good conversation

00:06:04   because there's a lot of sides to this

00:06:06   that either we didn't cover or we only briefly covered.

00:06:09   And a lot of questions that have come up

00:06:11   kind of since then with more time to think about it

00:06:13   from exactly seven days ago.

00:06:15   And I think one of the biggest things is like

00:06:19   there were so many factors that made this a problem

00:06:21   that are totally Apple's fault.

00:06:23   Like, you know, things like the OS's

00:06:26   really do run too slowly on old hardware.

00:06:28   And it really does seem like they don't care that much.

00:06:32   I'm sure it's somebody's job,

00:06:34   and maybe a lot of somebody's jobs,

00:06:36   to make the OS's work on the older hardware,

00:06:39   but the actions speak louder than words,

00:06:41   and it clearly is not as high of a priority

00:06:43   as it should be, and that's been true for years.

00:06:45   So that's one of the many problems

00:06:48   that really exacerbated this for Apple.

00:06:52   The reason why people have been thinking for years

00:06:55   that Apple secretly slows down their phones

00:06:56   them by new ones is because new OS's so often run

00:07:00   so much slower than old ones when you install them

00:07:02   on like a one or two generation old phone.

00:07:05   So that's a big question.

00:07:07   I would also, you know, one of the bigger questions

00:07:10   that I think people have been asking over the last

00:07:13   couple of weeks is why did this only happen

00:07:17   from the iPhone 6 forward?

00:07:19   And is it happening faster than it should?

00:07:23   We've heard all sorts of crazy reports,

00:07:26   all over Twitter and email and everything,

00:07:29   but a lot of people are saying that they're seeing

00:07:32   this battery throttling happening on a phone

00:07:34   within its first year or its second year,

00:07:37   and I don't think that's reasonable.

00:07:40   And somebody, honestly, I haven't had a lot of time

00:07:44   to do research on this.

00:07:45   Somebody said Samsung makes some kind of guarantee

00:07:47   about a certain battery health percentage after two years.

00:07:51   I don't know enough about that, but it certainly seems like,

00:07:55   yes, batteries do degrade over time,

00:07:59   and yes, they have problems,

00:08:01   and this is actually a pretty clever engineering solution

00:08:03   to try to make phones with severely degraded batteries

00:08:06   still usable, but I would like to hear maybe from people

00:08:11   who know more about this stuff,

00:08:13   who know more about battery hardware design.

00:08:16   Is this actually inevitable at the scale and timeline

00:08:20   that it's happening or is there possibly some kind of bigger design problem here?

00:08:24   So just to get to what Renee communicated, like Apple in this press release had said

00:08:28   that they were going to start this like $30 battery replacement thing in mid-January but

00:08:33   actually they're starting it now. Like their, you know, their supplies may be limited but

00:08:37   they're not waiting. So if you want to go to an Apple store right now because you think

00:08:41   you have a bad battery and you want to get the $30 deal, you can do that. Like you don't

00:08:45   have to wait. So that was the minor announcement. As to what you were getting, Adam Marko, I

00:08:49   I think a lot of it is explained by some of the things we've experienced, or you've

00:08:55   experienced multiple times, with the new laptops.

00:08:58   It's a combination of processors getting more powerful and being more power efficient

00:09:11   by turning off or downclocking or momentarily increasing and decreasing their clock speed.

00:09:22   Like basically a larger delta between how much power does the CPU draw when it's not

00:09:26   really doing anything and how much does it draw when it's doing all the things.

00:09:31   That gap has gotten wider and at the same time Apple has been aggressively making their

00:09:37   things thinner and their batteries smaller.

00:09:39   maybe around the iPhone 6 is when it started to cross that threshold of, "Hey, this system

00:09:44   on a chip has a really big range between I'm doing all the things playing a game and I'm

00:09:50   just scrolling a text message screen."

00:09:55   And at the same time, the batteries are getting bigger to power the bigger screens, but also

00:10:00   there was sort of the end of the thinness race.

00:10:03   They don't think they really got much thinner after the 6, model 6 and 7 and 8 are kind

00:10:07   of the same and actually the 10 is even a little bit thicker than those.

00:10:12   So those phones could sort of be the phone equivalent of the 2016-2017 MacBook Pros where

00:10:20   the battery can last a long time if you're scrolling web pages in Safari or using TextEdit

00:10:24   or something.

00:10:26   But if you're doing anything aggressive on them, your battery life goes in the toilet

00:10:30   because the battery is scaled to sort of a low average usage, but if you use all the

00:10:37   CPU and GPU all the time, it destroys the battery.

00:10:41   And that's just, that's, you know, obviously it's not shutting off your computer or whatever,

00:10:45   but we discussed before the throttling presumably for thermal reasons on the Macbook Pros, but

00:10:53   I think this, as to whether this is inevitable, I think it's a natural consequence of essentially

00:11:00   chips getting better about power efficiency because they have all these things that if

00:11:04   they use all of them at once is tremendously fast and uses a lot of power, but it's relying

00:11:09   on the fact that most of the time you're not doing that.

00:11:13   And so they can get away with putting a very small battery in there.

00:11:17   If they had to treat the system on a chip on the iPhone 6, 7, 8, and 10 as if they're

00:11:23   running at full blast all the time, the batteries would be three times as big.

00:11:27   they wouldn't be able to get away with a battery that small in there.

00:11:30   And the other possible thing is heat.

00:11:32   I don't know what kind of factor that is.

00:11:34   I don't feel like the phones get particularly hot, but that could just be because the heat

00:11:37   is being trapped on the inside.

00:11:39   But any kind of excessive heat, or I suppose cold, really hoses your battery.

00:11:45   And I always, I don't know if this is founded in battery chemistry, some battery expert

00:11:49   can tell me or not, but I always get the feeling that like the margin of error on a really

00:11:53   small battery is just so much lower, like that it's thinner, that the temperature gradients

00:11:58   can get to the middle of it, you know what I mean, like faster. That it's just so wafer-thin

00:12:04   that if it's hosed in any way, if it's stressed or hosed in any way, there's so little battery

00:12:10   there. Like if it's made hot or cold, the whole thing heats through or gets cold straight

00:12:15   through immediately because it's like wafer-thin, right? As opposed to if it was like a battery

00:12:20   like in an old power book that was just huge brick, subjecting that to external heat for

00:12:25   a short period of time.

00:12:26   It's like, well, the outside might get hot from whatever warm thing it's next to, but

00:12:30   it's going to take a while for that heat to penetrate all the way through the entire cell

00:12:34   if the heat is an external source.

00:12:36   I don't know.

00:12:39   The solution to all these things is make processes that take even less energy even when they're

00:12:46   They're going full blast and put in bigger batteries because bigger batteries, it's the

00:12:51   cure-all, it's all battery-related things.

00:12:53   Yeah, everything gets heavier and it takes longer to charge.

00:12:56   But if you're having problems delivering enough power or your battery is getting damaged in

00:13:01   some way or whatever, if you just have tons of headroom and lots of excess battery capacity,

00:13:06   then even if the thing degrades by 20% in the first year, if you are over-provisioned

00:13:11   on battery by 50%, you're still good.

00:13:14   Yeah, I think to hopefully put a period on this whole topic, I think the thing that's

00:13:18   most unfortunate and distressing about this is that a lot of it, if not all of it, could

00:13:23   have been avoided with better messaging from Apple.

00:13:25   And if Apple had just been more upfront about, "Hey, you know, the unfortunate reality is

00:13:33   your phone's battery is a little older than, you know, it's designed to be or not, it's

00:13:39   not up to the snuff that we hoped it was."

00:13:42   So the bad news is it's not going to run quite at full speed like we use – the CPU

00:13:46   won't run quite as full speed as we want it to, but the good news is it won't randomly

00:13:49   shut down on you.

00:13:51   And if you have the time, why don't you go to the Apple store and we'll charge you

00:13:54   a little bit of money to replace the battery.

00:13:57   And had it been messaged more appropriately, I think it would have been a much smaller

00:14:03   story, and I think that we can all agree that.

00:14:05   But –

00:14:06   Or a thing about what you were just talking about with the messaging.

00:14:10   Aside from people just not believing the messaging and everything which we went over last show,

00:14:16   the other problem with that that makes it tricky and maybe one of the things that motivated

00:14:20   Apple not to do it, it's not as if there is a little thermometer gauge or a single number

00:14:27   that pops out of the battery that tells you how good or bad your battery is.

00:14:31   It's a lot of guesswork and sort of like, "Well, last time we went through a charge

00:14:34   cycle, here's what the curve looked like and here's what the voltages were at various times."

00:14:39   a lot of guessing and it's like well but it was just it was in a really cold car then

00:14:43   so does that counter but now it's really warm and like there are just so many variables

00:14:49   and because batteries like they're not like bananas where you get a good one and a bad

00:14:53   one or it's an overripe one or whatever but they are not as they're not quite as uniform

00:14:59   as other components might be because it's all just a big chemical soup and they try

00:15:03   to make them all in uniform and try to make them all good but it really depends on how

00:15:07   you use your phone. You leave your phone on the dashboard in the sun or in your car when

00:15:13   it's freezing cold weather because you leave it in your car and you forget it for two hours.

00:15:17   Those things hurt your battery. So if they were to bring up that message, the first problem

00:15:22   is you could be bringing up a message that says, "Based on all our heuristics, we kind

00:15:26   of think your battery is a little bit crappy." And maybe they're wrong because their heuristics

00:15:29   are a little bit off because of extenuating circumstances that weren't taken into account.

00:15:33   And now someone is really mad because their phone is three months old and now you get

00:15:35   story. My three-month-old iPhone told me that my battery's bad. Refund, refund, right? And

00:15:42   the other possibility is that you are an unlucky person who happened to get a battery that either

00:15:49   was bad from the factory or got damaged by some excessive temperature changes during shipping or

00:15:56   something like that. Like someone, if all of the components that you could potentially get that

00:16:01   that are end up being like, you know, bad, right?

00:16:05   Most of the other components have good, easy ways

00:16:07   to test them, but batteries, you can test it at the factory

00:16:11   and it'll be like, passes all, it tests with flying colors,

00:16:13   but after three weeks of charge cycle,

00:16:14   some internal weakness or flaw in the battery

00:16:17   causes it to not be performing well.

00:16:20   And in that case, I mean, in that case,

00:16:22   the messaging is good for the consumer to say like,

00:16:25   oh, I've got a bad battery,

00:16:26   and presumably they'd get it replaced under warranty.

00:16:30   But it's like, how do you distinguish that

00:16:33   from the case I described before,

00:16:34   where actually your battery is fine

00:16:35   and the thing is just freaking out for no good reason?

00:16:37   So I'm not sure what the solution is.

00:16:40   A lot of the time people have battery issues

00:16:42   with their phone and the easy answer

00:16:44   is to just get a new battery.

00:16:45   And one of the things I think I learned

00:16:46   from the feedback from last show

00:16:48   is that a surprising number of people

00:16:51   who listen to the show, either themselves

00:16:55   or didn't know or know people who don't know

00:16:58   that you can replace the battery on an iPhone.

00:17:00   Like that's even a thing that can be done

00:17:02   for any amount of money anywhere.

00:17:04   I assumed that it was a thing that everybody knew

00:17:07   and I was definitely wrong about that.

00:17:09   A lot of people were saying,

00:17:10   until this thing, I didn't even know

00:17:12   you could replace a battery in the phone.

00:17:13   If I had known I could have just replaced the battery,

00:17:15   I never would have got it on a new phone.

00:17:16   Now some people are saying

00:17:17   if I had known a battery replacement would fix the problem,

00:17:19   but other people were saying,

00:17:20   I didn't even know that was a thing that you would do,

00:17:22   or maybe they didn't think it was a thing

00:17:23   that Apple would do.

00:17:24   Like maybe you could find some sketchy vendor

00:17:27   who will crack open your phone and give it a go,

00:17:29   or you could try to do it yourself,

00:17:30   but that it's an official Apple thing that you can do.

00:17:33   And the final thing on that is,

00:17:35   lots of people have been reporting,

00:17:38   and I don't know if this is Apple policy

00:17:41   or informal Apple policy or not,

00:17:42   but before this all happened,

00:17:44   if you took a phone to an Apple store and say,

00:17:47   "Hey, I'm having problems with my battery,"

00:17:50   they would run your phone through like a diagnostic

00:17:52   to check like your battery health according to whatever,

00:17:54   you know, whatever rules and number pops out

00:17:57   says your battery is like 80% okay or whatever.

00:17:59   And there was some number, and if it was below that number,

00:18:02   they would say, okay, we'll replace your battery

00:18:05   for 80 bucks or whatever,

00:18:06   like whatever they were charging, right?

00:18:07   But if it was not below that number,

00:18:09   if it says your battery is 99% healthy,

00:18:11   according to our tests,

00:18:12   that they wouldn't do the replacement for you.

00:18:14   And that you would throw your money at this,

00:18:16   no, look here, money, $80,

00:18:18   take this money and replace my battery.

00:18:20   And they say, no, sorry, our diagnosis tell us

00:18:22   that your battery is still good,

00:18:24   so we won't replace your thing, right?

00:18:26   And enough people gave me that story

00:18:29   that it seems like a thing that's really happening.

00:18:30   And the reason I was interested in it is because

00:18:33   we had an iPhone 5S that we were,

00:18:34   it was gonna be a hand-me-down phone for my son.

00:18:37   And we thought like, oh, before I, you know,

00:18:40   it had been well used.

00:18:41   It had been used for at least two years, maybe longer.

00:18:44   Heavily used.

00:18:45   And so we're like, oh, well,

00:18:46   I don't wanna give him a phone with a two-year-old battery.

00:18:48   You know, we wanna be able to reach him

00:18:49   and he's probably not gonna be very good about charging it.

00:18:51   So before I give him this phone,

00:18:52   let me go to the Apple store and replace the battery.

00:18:54   So I brought the 5S to the Apple store to replace the battery.

00:18:57   I gave it to the Apple person.

00:18:58   I said to her, I made a genius bar appointment.

00:19:00   I said, I just want a new battery in this phone.

00:19:03   And he takes it from me and runs it through diagnostic

00:19:06   and says, oh, this battery actually

00:19:07   looks like it's pretty good.

00:19:08   It's like 85%.

00:19:09   I'm like, yeah, I know.

00:19:11   There's nothing wrong with the battery.

00:19:12   I just want to replace it because I'm giving it

00:19:13   to my son as a gift and I want him to have a fresh battery.

00:19:16   And the guy said, oh, OK.

00:19:20   And he did it for me.

00:19:22   And only now in retrospect, do I look back,

00:19:24   think back to the like the strange pause

00:19:26   and the way he kind of said, oh, to think,

00:19:29   maybe he was doing me a favor.

00:19:31   Like I wasn't like aggressive about it.

00:19:33   I had no expectation that I was gonna be told no.

00:19:35   I was just explaining, oh yeah, no, sorry.

00:19:37   Sorry to make you think I had a problem with my battery.

00:19:40   I don't have a problem with my battery.

00:19:41   I am just here saying just period, I want a new battery.

00:19:44   Didn't argue with me and didn't tell me

00:19:46   they have a policy they do, but he did do a little pause.

00:19:49   So I don't know what to think anymore.

00:19:52   Maybe Apple geniuses can chime in and say,

00:19:54   what was the policy before this whole throttling PR thing?

00:19:58   But either way, at $80, I feel like Apple

00:20:02   should have replaced the battery for anybody

00:20:04   who could throw that money at them.

00:20:05   At $30, I feel like Apple's probably losing money

00:20:07   in every one of these battery replacements,

00:20:08   so I kind of understand if they're not gonna give you

00:20:10   the $30 deal if your battery's like brand spanking new

00:20:13   and their test says you have 95% capacity or whatever.

00:20:17   All right, so tell me about phone throttling

00:20:21   and how it's not always the explanation.

00:20:23   - This is another big thread of feedback.

00:20:24   Hey, my phone takes 25 seconds

00:20:27   to launch the messages application.

00:20:29   Damn Apple and that thermal throttling.

00:20:31   A lot of things can be wrong with phones.

00:20:34   I wanna tell people that if your phone is super slow

00:20:37   and doing all sorts of terrible things,

00:20:39   possibly related to this just started

00:20:41   after the iOS 11 update or whatever it may be,

00:20:44   There are many, many things that people have experienced

00:20:49   and have written to us about

00:20:49   and that I've experienced personally

00:20:51   where your phone gets unreasonably slow

00:20:55   when it's doing nothing hard and with a brand new battery.

00:20:59   And I can tell you that those things

00:21:02   are not related to phone throttling.

00:21:05   Those are related to something else terrible

00:21:06   and I wish I could tell you what it was.

00:21:08   Lots of people like wipe and restore your phone

00:21:10   and that would fix it, which is the worst possible,

00:21:12   like you almost wish that doesn't work.

00:21:14   like please don't let this work because it's the worst kind of sort of cross my fingers

00:21:18   plug in and unplug it thing.

00:21:19   But very often that actually does work, which is terrible.

00:21:22   That should not work.

00:21:24   You would love to know what the problem is, but all I'm going to say is if your phone

00:21:27   is like really slow, like someone just wrote and said they press play on like a podcast

00:21:33   player and it takes five seconds for audio to start, that is, I'm pretty sure that's

00:21:38   not CPU throttling, right?

00:21:41   Because the throttling is not, will you slow your CPU to 1%, right?

00:21:45   And so if you're getting any kind of performance problems that are pervasive everywhere throughout

00:21:51   the operating system and really, really slow, like 100 times, 200 times slower than it should

00:21:57   be, like you're waiting three minutes for messages to launch, that is not this issue.

00:22:02   That is another issue that is probably worse, and we can't even tell you what it is.

00:22:08   And if you want to go get a new battery anyway, go ahead.

00:22:10   But for those things, like, you know, sometimes it's not a tumor and sometimes it's not phone

00:22:16   throttling, sometimes it's something even worse.

00:22:20   And yes, sometimes it does coincide with an OS upgrade and I have no explanation for what

00:22:24   it is, but I can tell you it is definitely a thing.

00:22:26   I experienced it myself, my wife experienced it on her phone.

00:22:31   Wiping in restore fixes it for me about like 60% of the time and I hate that it does.

00:22:36   I don't really recommend people wipe and restore as a matter of course, but unless

00:22:41   someone else knows a better way to figure out what the heck that problem is, you just

00:22:45   want to make the problem go away sometimes.

00:22:46   Unfortunately, sometimes wipe and restore doesn't fix it, and then what do you do?

00:22:49   I don't even know.

00:22:50   But anyway, all that is to say, if there's something wrong with your phone and it's

00:22:54   still under warranty, bring it to the Apple genius.

00:22:57   Let them sort it out.

00:22:58   If they can't figure it out, maybe they'll just give you a new phone.

00:23:01   But it's not always throttling.

00:23:02   I find in my experience it's usually lupus.

00:23:06   Speaking more of throttling, let's talk about the iMac Pro and its thermal throttling.

00:23:10   This is the show about throttling apparently.

00:23:12   Yeah, this is slightly different, but anyway, people have iMac Pros now, including Marco,

00:23:16   which we'll get to later in the show.

00:23:19   And some of the people who have had them are testing them out.

00:23:22   And one of the interesting tests that you can do with these, now that they have them

00:23:25   and they have something that can measure all the temperatures of all the little bits is,

00:23:29   "Hey, let's see if anything we can do with this iMac Pro causes any of the parts inside

00:23:35   it to not run at their normal clock speed."

00:23:41   And the answer is that yes, there are things you can do to make both the CPU and the GPU

00:23:45   dip below their normal clock speed, albeit briefly.

00:23:49   This is an Apple Insider article, and they ran it through a bunch of benchmarks on CPU

00:23:53   and GPU.

00:23:54   And for the most part, it stays pegged at whatever its, you know, speed that its rated

00:23:58   speed is, but there's a nice little graph, so you can see it dips for a second or two

00:24:02   down to a slower clock speed, and it goes back up to the top.

00:24:09   And the interesting part, I think, about this throttling, and this is nothing to do with

00:24:13   battery, obviously, because this guy's plugged in, the interesting—this is all about heat—the

00:24:16   interesting part of this throttling is to say, during all these tests, the fans are

00:24:21   not really going nuts, right?

00:24:24   In other words, that it seems like this throttling could be avoided if the system was tuned to

00:24:31   crank the fan speed up a little bit more.

00:24:35   So it seems like, at least as far as this current iteration of whatever firmware and

00:24:39   OS combination determines all this stuff, that the iMac Pro is tuned to be quiet, as

00:24:46   quiet as possible, while more or less maintaining maximum speed.

00:24:50   And again, you can't instantaneously crank up the fans and instantaneously extract heat

00:24:55   that's going to cause the thing to throttle itself, right?

00:24:58   So I think their option would be to avoid these brief, you know, one or two second dips

00:25:04   below normal clock speed, right?

00:25:07   To avoid that, you would actually have to run the fans louder and sooner, perhaps to

00:25:11   a significant degree.

00:25:13   And instead, they've chosen to tune this thing to be as quiet as possible while allowing

00:25:19   for occasional dips in clock speed, which is an interesting trade-off, which means that

00:25:23   I bet this machine is pretty quiet, and again, Marco, you will get a chance to explain all

00:25:27   your experiences with this eventually.

00:25:30   But also, this is another way that I feel like this thing is hopefully, probably, potentially

00:25:37   differentiated from the Mac Pro, because again, if a machine is ever going to be tuned to

00:25:44   never dip its clock speed because it can't get enough heat away from it, a purpose design

00:25:49   modular doesn't have a screen attached to it, yada yada yada, like pro computer, would

00:25:55   be the one to do it. And the all-in-one sleek, slim, amazingly compact, pro components jammed

00:26:01   behind a screen is the one that is going to stay as quiet as possible, but occasionally

00:26:07   allow dips in clock speed so it doesn't have to be too noisy.

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00:28:15   Once again, thank you so much to Flight Logger,

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00:28:20   - You did order an iMac Pro, as it turns out.

00:28:26   - As it turns out, yes I did.

00:28:28   - And?

00:28:29   - And I am now running High Sierra.

00:28:33   - Aw, welcome to months ago.

00:28:35   - Yeah, my fonts are now overly smooth and blurry

00:28:38   because my font smoothing setting is not fixed.

00:28:41   - Let me interrupt you right there.

00:28:42   I have heard you, you know,

00:28:44   conventioning about this for months.

00:28:47   I don't understand what it is that you're so angry about,

00:28:50   but I really kind of don't want to know

00:28:53   because I don't see it right now.

00:28:55   I don't see the arrow in the FedEx logo,

00:28:57   and I don't want to, so.

00:28:59   - You haven't changed your settings.

00:29:00   Marco is changing his settings from the defaults

00:29:02   for his font smoothing.

00:29:03   - I mean, I used to expect that if a setting

00:29:05   is going to be there, that it should work properly.

00:29:07   Otherwise, why have the setting?

00:29:09   - Wait, so what do you set it to?

00:29:11   - So the setting I'm talking about is,

00:29:12   in settings, general, turning off,

00:29:16   use LCD font smoothing when available.

00:29:19   - Yeah, mine is off.

00:29:20   So what am I supposed to see that's garbage?

00:29:22   - It's off?

00:29:23   - Yeah.

00:29:24   - Okay, open Xcode or something else

00:29:27   that would truncate text automatically with an ellipsis.

00:29:30   Look in the source list, make it nice and narrow.

00:29:33   - All right, hold on, hold on, hold on.

00:29:34   Slow down, man, slow down.

00:29:35   I was trying to find the right project, okay.

00:29:36   - Launching Xcode, bounce, bounce, bounce.

00:29:39   - Launching Xcode on your non-pro iMac must take ages.

00:29:43   - Oh, you're such a jerk.

00:29:44   Okay, anyway.

00:29:45   So I see an ellipsis in the middle of one of the folder names

00:29:49   in this particular project.

00:29:50   - So what you should see, if that setting is unchecked,

00:29:54   is you should see that the text with an ellipsis

00:29:56   should be rendered thicker than the text without the ellipsis.

00:30:00   - Oh, (bleep) you, Marco.

00:30:02   Oh, God bless America.

00:30:04   - You see it, right?

00:30:05   "Hey, I'm never gonna be able to unsee this now."

00:30:07   - Right, and that isn't the only place that this shows up.

00:30:11   Basically, if text is being rendered with certain,

00:30:15   I don't know the details, but with certain

00:30:17   core text behaviors that are being applied to it,

00:30:20   they basically make it ignore that setting

00:30:22   and make it always use LCD font smoothing.

00:30:26   And that's new to High Sierra, that is not yet fixed.

00:30:28   In whatever apps and workflows and things I use,

00:30:32   that shows up a lot.

00:30:34   So I'd rather just live with my blurry text everywhere

00:30:38   than have it be inconsistently blurry.

00:30:40   So right now I am living with that setting back on,

00:30:43   which is the default, and it sucks,

00:30:46   but it sucks less than having everything be inconsistent.

00:30:50   I think it also applies to finder windows and stuff.

00:30:52   It applies a lot of places, and it's annoying.

00:30:55   - So why do you think LCD font smoothing is blurrier

00:30:57   than plain old anti-aliasing?

00:30:58   To my eyes, plain old anti-aliasing with gray pixels

00:31:02   is blurrier than the little sub-pixel thing

00:31:05   that the LCD thing is doing.

00:31:07   - I haven't ever taken a macro lens to my screen

00:31:10   and really compared how they're doing it,

00:31:12   but it seems like the effective visual thickness

00:31:17   of the fonts, how thick they appear to be,

00:31:21   appears slightly thicker when it's using the LCD fonts,

00:31:25   which is their version of sub-pixel anti-aliasing.

00:31:27   That's what we're talking about.

00:31:28   - See, I would think it was the opposite.

00:31:29   In old non-retinal monitors, like the one I'm staring at,

00:31:31   I always find the opposite, that LCD font smoothing

00:31:34   makes them appear thinner, and plain old anti-aliasing

00:31:37   with a series of grayish pixels makes them look thicker.

00:31:40   - Yeah, and that's what I would assume,

00:31:42   but regardless, the way it appears visually to me,

00:31:46   like perceiving, the perception of how it looks,

00:31:49   is that when the sub-pixel anti-aliasing is being used,

00:31:54   which is the default, the fonts do appear thicker.

00:31:57   - Yeah, I would agree with that,

00:31:58   that when I ticked this checkbox back on,

00:32:02   everything appeared thicker to me than otherwise.

00:32:05   I don't know, weird though.

00:32:06   Well, thank you for ruining that.

00:32:08   - Yeah, you're welcome.

00:32:09   (laughs)

00:32:10   You can go back to Sierra, it won't happen anymore.

00:32:12   - All right, so how's your iMac Pro?

00:32:14   It's beautiful, I've seen one once at WWDC.

00:32:17   In fact, Jon was with me.

00:32:19   I can tell you they're beautiful,

00:32:20   but tell me, other than the physical appearance, how is it?

00:32:22   - Honestly, ask me next week,

00:32:24   because I've had it for literally one day,

00:32:28   a day during which I have been able to do very little on it

00:32:31   because I've been very, very busy.

00:32:33   The one thing I will, I mean, I'm using it right now,

00:32:34   it's wonderful so far, it does look incredible,

00:32:37   all the black things on my desk now look cool.

00:32:40   The few remaining silver things on my desk,

00:32:41   like my speaker and headphone amps,

00:32:45   now look really out of place

00:32:46   'cause they're silver instead of black,

00:32:47   so God knows what I'm gonna do about that.

00:32:49   (laughs)

00:32:50   - Yeah, what about all your (bleep) boxes?

00:32:52   Those all are silver, right? - Exactly.

00:32:54   - They are, yeah.

00:32:54   Now, it does have black versions of some of their products,

00:32:58   so I might look into that, but.

00:33:00   - Oh, God.

00:33:01   - I could just move them or just deal with it.

00:33:02   - I can get you a can of Krylon,

00:33:04   you can fix all those silver boxes real quick.

00:33:06   - Yeah, anyway, so yeah.

00:33:09   So, my initial impressions, I don't really have any yet

00:33:13   because it hasn't been enough time.

00:33:14   However, one thing that is immediately striking,

00:33:17   besides the look, is just how incredibly quiet it is.

00:33:22   even quieter than the 5K, for me at least.

00:33:25   And maybe that's because my 5K is old

00:33:26   and the platters are full of bad blocks

00:33:28   or whatever the Apple people told me.

00:33:30   I don't know. (laughs)

00:33:32   - More likely the inside of the case

00:33:33   is filled with dog hair.

00:33:35   - My dog doesn't shed.

00:33:36   But yeah, it's-- - You're right,

00:33:37   it doesn't shed.

00:33:38   - That makes a difference, and he really doesn't.

00:33:41   He needs a haircut very badly, but he does not shed.

00:33:43   Anyway, so it's strikingly quiet.

00:33:47   It is ridiculously quiet.

00:33:49   So I am very much enjoying that,

00:33:51   And that, if nothing else, will push me to very aggressively

00:33:55   move this into being Tiff's computer as soon as the Mac Pro

00:34:00   is presumably released if I want it,

00:34:02   because I want her computer across the room

00:34:04   to be this quiet as well.

00:34:06   It is shocking how quiet it is.

00:34:08   And how quiet it seems to remain under load

00:34:11   by all the reviews, but I have not experienced that yet.

00:34:14   But ask me again next week.

00:34:16   - So both Jason Snell and Underscore have

00:34:19   have told me that FFmpeg encodes tend to be twice as quick on the iMac Pro as compared

00:34:27   to my 5K iMac.

00:34:29   And although I don't do FFmpeg encodes as often as I probably paint it, it happens often

00:34:35   enough that I am salivating at the thought of it.

00:34:38   And then I see the price tag and I'm reminded that I don't need one of these after all.

00:34:42   My goodness, it seems like it would be, it's just so much faster and I'm super jealous.

00:34:47   - I just think all my RAM errors

00:34:49   are being corrected and detected.

00:34:51   Oh man, this is so great.

00:34:52   - That's so harsh.

00:34:53   - It's so nice to be back on a Mac Pro again.

00:34:55   - Oh, you're so mean to Jon.

00:34:57   - Yeah, like I said in the follow-up,

00:34:59   but I do find it interesting that this machine

00:35:01   appears to be tuned for quiet above all else,

00:35:04   which is like an interesting way to go for, you know,

00:35:07   like what it says to me that actually,

00:35:09   that they do actually have cooling, more cooling,

00:35:11   especially since they chose parts that are clocked lower,

00:35:14   like whatever these special number parts

00:35:16   they use from Intel. They're like similar to other parts that Intel offers but a little bit lower

00:35:20   clocked. Like they would have the headroom but they wanted it to be quieter, right? Rather than

00:35:27   having it like it's almost as if the design goal was quieter than the 5k iMac. Which you could see

00:35:33   them then maybe saying it should be as quiet as the 5k iMac but it ends up being quieter.

00:35:37   Like you know dramatically quieter. And not because it can be that quiet and never throttle

00:35:45   but it can be that quiet and almost never throttle. Like just little blips, little blips here and

00:35:51   there. Like I encourage people to check out the Apple Insider article and look at the graphs. It's

00:35:54   mostly never throttling, little dips here and there. And so, and again, like this probably varies

00:35:59   on the ambient temperature of the room, how good the thermal paste is on the model that you happen

00:36:04   to get, all sorts of things like that. That's something else that, a couple of follow-up

00:36:08   YouTube links that unfortunately I don't have for the show notes, but if you just go onto YouTube

00:36:12   and look for like iMac or Apple thermal throttle cooling blah blah blah, PowerBook, sorry,

00:36:20   MacBook thermal throttling.

00:36:22   One of the things that the PC builders like to do is take apart Apple computers and take

00:36:28   off the heat sinks and the heat pipes and scrape off the thermal paste and put on like

00:36:34   their fancy thermal paste.

00:36:36   Sometimes they put on multiple kinds of fancy thermal paste which boggles my mind that they

00:36:39   They take the entire thing apart, scrape off the thing, clean the CPU in the heat sink,

00:36:44   put on thermal paste, reassemble the entire thing, test it, and then repeat it, only to

00:36:48   scrape off the paste they just put on and put on an even more ridiculously expensive

00:36:52   special thermal paste made with like, you know, ARCTIC SILVER!

00:36:56   Yeah, exactly, made with these adamantium elements that make the things more expensive

00:37:01   than printer ink.

00:37:03   But they get like, you know, double, you know, single or even sometimes double digit increases

00:37:08   in or decreases in temperature just from merely applying new thermal paste or better thermal

00:37:15   paste.

00:37:17   And this is true not just of laptops but of all computers.

00:37:21   As it ages and as you go through heating cool and heating cool cycles over and over again,

00:37:28   the thermal bond between whatever is pulling heat away from your chip and the top of the

00:37:32   chip itself degrades, right? And I've always wondered why Apple doesn't use whatever these

00:37:38   very fancy thermal paste things are. Maybe they, maybe these ones last even, like they're

00:37:45   good when they're installed new, but after a year they're crap. Maybe it's just a cost

00:37:49   saving thing. Maybe they can't get thermal paste of that quality in the volumes needed

00:37:54   to sell millions and millions of whatevers. But it's always something I suspect when I

00:37:59   hear someone says like, "Oh, I got a 5K iMac and it's like super loud." Or, you know, that

00:38:04   happened with the PlayStation 4, so a lot of the PlayStation 4 is like, "I got a brand

00:38:07   new PlayStation 4 and it sounds like a jet engine is taking off." And again, getting

00:38:11   back to the battery as being like the sort of touchy-feely squishy element that could

00:38:17   go, that could be like a, you get a bad banana, right? The touchy-feely squishy element of

00:38:22   almost all electronics these days is how, how well assembled was it? Like, how good

00:38:29   as the thermal bond between the hot little square or rectangle and the apparatus meant

00:38:35   to pull heat away. And so you may end up getting a PlayStation 4 where it's just not seated

00:38:41   properly or there's not enough thermal paste or there's too much thermal paste or it's

00:38:45   crooked or some other problem with it. And right out of the box the fans run at max speed.

00:38:50   You're like, "Oh, what's wrong with this thing?" It's like, yeah, that part of it. The silicon

00:38:54   chip is solid state and they can test it and verify it and if it's good it's probably good.

00:39:00   And the assembly process, if they over torque or under torque a few screws it doesn't matter,

00:39:04   but if one of those screws is one of the screws that keeps the heat sink properly seated on

00:39:09   the thing or if the little machine or person that puts the thermal paste on got it off

00:39:14   by a few millimeters or just so many things can go wrong that seem very analog. And if

00:39:22   If that goes wrong, it's like you just feel like you lost the lottery, like you're bummed

00:39:26   out or you won the crappy lottery.

00:39:29   Most of the time everything's fine, but every once in a while you get a lemon and you're

00:39:32   like, "Why are these fans so loud?"

00:39:33   It's like, if you're one of those people, you could crack it open and try to fix it,

00:39:37   but if you're not, you have to just try to return it or try to...

00:39:40   They'll say, "Oh, fan noise is normal.

00:39:42   When you're playing a game, the fans just spin up."

00:39:44   It's like, "Yeah, but when I just turn it on, listen to this.

00:39:46   You can tell there's something wrong with it, right?

00:39:47   And you have to argue with the person and beg."

00:39:49   It's like my worst nightmare.

00:39:52   I've had pretty good luck with fans so far.

00:39:55   But like imagine, you get a new 5K iMac.

00:39:57   Who was the one who did this?

00:39:58   Was it Stephen Hackett who was complaining

00:39:59   about his noisy 5K iMac?

00:40:00   Someone we know, I think, recently got a brand new 5K iMac

00:40:03   and could not believe how loud it was.

00:40:05   And now whenever I hear that, I'm like,

00:40:06   maybe they just expected it to be quieter

00:40:09   or maybe they lost the thermal paste lottery.

00:40:12   - Yeah, well, and I think that one was actually

00:40:14   like a defective one.

00:40:14   But I will say that like, you know,

00:40:17   now having used the 5K iMac full-time for three years,

00:40:22   My only complaint really was that under load, it got loud.

00:40:27   And it was kind of annoying to hear the fans

00:40:29   when it was under a load.

00:40:31   And so to have this brand new, awesome, high-end generation

00:40:36   of the iMac basically not do that at all,

00:40:40   or do that to such a small level

00:40:41   that most people don't even notice it's doing it at all,

00:40:43   basically to have it be quiet under most loads,

00:40:47   that is a huge upgrade.

00:40:51   And you could argue, as some people,

00:40:53   like on that Apple Insider comment thread did,

00:40:56   you can argue like it's a pro machine,

00:40:57   it should never throttle from thermals.

00:41:00   But I think there's a question of degree there.

00:41:05   If it can be really, really quiet under most workloads

00:41:11   and only give up like 1% of its total throughput on the CPU,

00:41:15   I would probably take that trade off,

00:41:17   and I bet most buyers would too.

00:41:20   - Yeah, especially since you would have to run the fan,

00:41:23   not just like, oh, like during those blips,

00:41:26   just make the fan a little faster.

00:41:27   I think to get rid of those blips,

00:41:29   you would have to substantially,

00:41:32   run the fan substantially faster,

00:41:34   much earlier than you think you would have to.

00:41:36   It's not as if you can react to them in real time

00:41:38   with fan speed, and so it is actually a trade off.

00:41:41   And so basically, like these things look like

00:41:42   they're pretty much never throttling

00:41:45   in exchange for very quiet performance.

00:41:47   And you could go to absolutely never throttling

00:41:50   in exchange for iMac 5K sounds, performance, you know?

00:41:54   - Right, but I don't want that.

00:41:56   I gladly would give up that last little tiny percentage

00:41:59   of performance for a computer that is quiet

00:42:02   pretty much all the time than one that does

00:42:06   what the 5K iMac does, which is just ramp up, ramp down,

00:42:08   ramp up, ramp down.

00:42:09   You can always hear those things moving.

00:42:11   - Or we could just wait for the Mac Pro and have it all.

00:42:13   - We hope, right?

00:42:15   - That's right.

00:42:16   Until it's introduced, it's the fantasy computer

00:42:18   that solves everyone's problems.

00:42:19   - Exactly.

00:42:20   So Maxuck in the chat asks,

00:42:22   "Is it possible that I would ever stick with the iMac Pro

00:42:24   "and not buy the Mac Pro?"

00:42:27   That is possible.

00:42:28   Again, we won't really know until the Mac Pro is released,

00:42:32   you know, what it is.

00:42:34   - Correction, it is impossible that you won't buy

00:42:37   the Mac Pro, but it is possible that you buy it,

00:42:39   return it, and then go back to the iMac Pro.

00:42:41   - Truth.

00:42:41   - It's possible, but you know, 'cause I do,

00:42:44   I am going to probably be incredibly satisfied

00:42:47   with the iMac Pro in the meantime.

00:42:49   And as I mentioned on previous shows,

00:42:52   if the iMac Pro was it,

00:42:54   if there was not going to be another Mac Pro,

00:42:57   if this was the only Mac Pro Xeon workstation

00:43:01   that Apple's going to make,

00:43:03   I would totally just buy it and be fine with it.

00:43:05   And I would occasionally complain,

00:43:07   if I had to bring in my computer for service

00:43:08   and I lost my whole computer

00:43:09   'cause the monitor had a dead pixel,

00:43:11   that would make me upset.

00:43:12   But otherwise, I've been using a 5K iMac

00:43:16   for the last three years

00:43:17   because I decided the overall package of the iMac

00:43:20   with the wonderful Retina screen and everything

00:43:22   was better for me than the 2013 Mac Pro.

00:43:25   I might make that same decision again

00:43:27   after seeing the Mac Pro, the next Mac Pro,

00:43:30   but the next Mac Pro will also be apparently,

00:43:34   allegedly coming with a new Pro display.

00:43:37   I assume it's going to be at least a 5K Retina display,

00:43:41   if not bigger.

00:43:42   Man, it'd be awesome if it was 8K or something,

00:43:44   but I don't know how likely that is

00:43:47   at this year, but if they release something

00:43:50   that ends up being less compelling to me

00:43:55   than the iMac Pro, then I'll get an iMac Pro for myself

00:43:59   and give this one to TIFF.

00:44:00   Maybe I'll wait 'til the next generation, probably not.

00:44:03   (laughs)

00:44:04   Because, and I've seen a lot of people,

00:44:07   a lot of Mac commentators and everything saying,

00:44:11   "We really have to see how often Apple updates the iMac Pro.

00:44:15   expecting like annual updates and don't expect that because even if Apple is

00:44:21   serving this line responsibly and as well as they possibly can they probably

00:44:27   won't update the iMac Pro in a meaningful way annually. They might and

00:44:32   they should update the GPUs annually. I don't know that they will but the most

00:44:38   responsible way to update this machine would be to update the GPUs basically

00:44:42   whenever there's a new major update to the GPU line that it uses, which is usually about

00:44:48   once a year. But the Xeon CPUs that it uses are not updated every year. Usually Intel

00:44:55   gives meaningful Xeon updates about every 18 months to two years. So that's the kind

00:45:00   of upgrade cycle that I hope to see here. Anything less than that I think is optimistic,

00:45:05   and they would only be able to update the GPU, maybe the SSD, but probably not any meaningful

00:45:11   CPU updates more often than that.

00:45:14   - So, so far so good, not a lot to say,

00:45:16   'cause it's brand new.

00:45:18   - An hour in.

00:45:19   - Yep, I was gonna be quick, remember,

00:45:21   are you keeping your peripherals?

00:45:24   - The black ones?

00:45:25   Hell yeah.

00:45:27   - But you won't be using the keyboard, I assume,

00:45:29   is that correct?

00:45:30   - No, that's true, the keyboard I am not planning on using

00:45:32   because I use a natural keyboard,

00:45:35   which is all, the keyboard I use is the Microsoft

00:45:37   Sculpt ergonomic keyboard, which happens to also be

00:45:39   black and gray, so that works out well.

00:45:42   It looks awesome with all the new stuff.

00:45:45   So I do have the black trackpad and the black mouse.

00:45:48   The black keyboard is still in the box,

00:45:50   and I don't know, I'll probably just send it

00:45:52   to John or somebody, I don't know, do you want it?

00:45:54   - I'm already buying Snails.

00:45:56   - Oh, I was gonna give you mine for free.

00:45:57   - If you wanna send me it for free, I'll also take it.

00:45:59   (laughing)

00:46:00   - Casey, do you want?

00:46:01   - Well, I am acquiring Underscores, coincidentally.

00:46:04   Underscore got a--

00:46:05   (laughing)

00:46:06   - The, what do you call it, the black market,

00:46:08   to speak for iMac Pro peripherals is alive and kicking.

00:46:12   The space gray marking.

00:46:14   Coincidentally underscore, this is the thing, like, if I were to order myself in iMac Pro,

00:46:21   whether or not I wanted any of the peripherals, there is absolutely no chance I would not

00:46:26   order all three of them.

00:46:28   I would order the keyboard, which of course you have to get, I would order a mouse and

00:46:31   I would order a trackpad because why would you not get the whole set?

00:46:36   And Underscore did that, and even though I am not a trackpad kind of guy, when he told

00:46:40   me he had the whole set, I was like, "Alright, just send me an Apple Pay Cash request for

00:46:45   whatever the sum total of that would be.

00:46:47   I don't even want to know what it is until you ask for it, so I can't back down, because

00:46:50   I'm sure it'll be like $300.

00:46:51   But I'll just take the whole set off your hands, and I'm very looking forward to it."

00:46:56   So about, I don't know, a year or two ago, I added a trackpad to my setup.

00:47:00   So I have left hand, left trackpad, right mouse.

00:47:03   And that's what I plan to do.

00:47:04   Keyboard in the middle.

00:47:05   really nice.

00:47:06   Like, it takes only days to get into the habit

00:47:09   of using the trackpad with your left hand.

00:47:11   It does like, so I'm not using it all the time,

00:47:13   I'm basically just switching off.

00:47:15   Like, if I need to reach something with my left hand,

00:47:17   I can, if I need to move with the mouse,

00:47:20   use my right hand, I can do that too.

00:47:21   Like, it's surprisingly easy to get accustomed

00:47:24   to regularly using more than one input device,

00:47:28   even with your non-dominant hand.

00:47:30   It's really nice.

00:47:31   And now, like, I'll occasionally have,

00:47:34   like I'll need the desk space for something else

00:47:36   for like an hour and I'll move the trackpad

00:47:38   like up to a different spot where it is

00:47:40   so it's not accessible to me.

00:47:42   And I miss it immediately.

00:47:44   Like I keep putting my hand where it is

00:47:46   expecting to use it and it's not there.

00:47:49   So it really has worked itself into my setup

00:47:52   very, very fully and it's really nice

00:47:55   and I miss it when it isn't there.

00:47:57   - Yeah, I don't know how much I'll use it in general

00:47:59   but in the brief amount of time I've used Final Cut Pro,

00:48:03   Oh boy, do I wish I had a trackpad for a lot of that.

00:48:06   So, I am a devout mouse user in general,

00:48:09   but for that, I am very looking forward

00:48:13   to having the trackpad.

00:48:14   - Yeah, it's very nice for the two finger scrolling gestures

00:48:16   in both directions.

00:48:17   - Yep.

00:48:18   - And so like, I started it for Logic

00:48:21   when editing podcasts so I could scroll the timeline

00:48:24   left and right.

00:48:25   That's probably why you want it for Final Cut Pro, right?

00:48:27   - Yep, yep.

00:48:28   - Now, I'm good enough, I'm precise enough with it

00:48:31   that I can pretty much use regular mouse functionality

00:48:35   at pretty much full speed with my left hand

00:48:39   whenever I need to, and it's wonderful.

00:48:42   - That's pretty cool.

00:48:43   Yeah, I wanna use it for scrolling laterally

00:48:45   in the timeline and also zooming, you know, so making,

00:48:48   you know, I don't know what the technical terms are

00:48:51   for this, but you know, rather than showing

00:48:53   the entire timeline of a maybe 15-minute video

00:48:56   all on screen at once, maybe I wanna blow it up

00:48:58   that there's only 10 seconds of video being shown

00:49:01   on my entire 5K screen.

00:49:03   And I'm doing that deliberately

00:49:04   because I'm like really trying to tweak timing on something.

00:49:06   So I'm looking forward to pinch to zoom and all that.

00:49:08   So yeah, I'm gonna be freaking broke,

00:49:10   but I am looking forward to these stealthy,

00:49:13   space gray, don't call it black, black peripherals.

00:49:18   - You guys both need 27 inch iPad Pros.

00:49:20   So you can do multi-touch editing

00:49:22   of your podcasts and video.

00:49:23   - True.

00:49:24   - Like you're like one degree,

00:49:25   like you're doing this indirect thing

00:49:26   where you're swiping around while staring at a screen.

00:49:29   It's like, just bring them together, you're so close.

00:49:31   - Yeah. - Use all your fingers

00:49:32   and your hands and your elbows.

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00:51:40   - All right, anything else about the iMac Pro

00:51:45   before we move on to this Intel thing?

00:51:47   - I don't know, do we have time for the Intel thing?

00:51:48   I think we have to get to Ask ATP

00:51:50   and we can push the Intel thing off till next week,

00:51:52   by which time planes will be falling from the sky.

00:51:55   (laughs)

00:51:56   - Come on.

00:51:57   We have time for at least the opening of the Intel thing.

00:51:59   We'll talk about it for a little bit,

00:52:01   and then I think Ask ATP will be quick, famous last words.

00:52:04   - Well, the thing is, like the Intel thing, it's huge news,

00:52:08   but we don't really know a lot about it yet.

00:52:10   So we need to talk about it,

00:52:12   but we're gonna be talking about it more next week.

00:52:14   - I know enough about it to give a reasonable summary.

00:52:17   - All right, so let me take a stab

00:52:19   as Chief Summarizer-in-Chief, and John, whenever you get fed up with it, just interrupt me

00:52:23   and we'll move along.

00:52:25   It appears that on Intel CPUs for sure, but probably on other CPU architectures, there

00:52:34   is an exploit wherein—and I have to back up just a half-step—you know, as the CPU

00:52:40   is executing instructions, as it's executing code, one of the things that modern CPUs will

00:52:45   do is they'll start looking ahead to what code is coming, and they'll start actually

00:52:49   pre-executing some of that code in some circumstances to get kind of ahead of the game.

00:52:55   This is like when you grab a book and jump to the last page and see, you know, who killed

00:53:00   who or, you know, who survives at the end or whatever the case may be.

00:53:03   So these CPUs will look a little bit ahead and start to execute stuff that they think

00:53:09   is coming.

00:53:11   And that's true of most modern CPU architectures,

00:53:15   but what's a little bit different between CPU architectures

00:53:17   is that some of them, or I understand,

00:53:20   that some of them have some protections

00:53:22   around what's considered like operating system

00:53:25   or really kernel code and what's considered

00:53:28   kind of quote unquote the user's code.

00:53:32   - You're straying, you're straying.

00:53:33   - All right, sorry.

00:53:34   - Warning, warning.

00:53:35   - All right, here we go.

00:53:35   - Abort, abort.

00:53:36   - Just cut in now, cut in now.

00:53:38   - All right, so everything you said up to that point

00:53:41   is good about speculative execution. And again, I'm not an expert on this either, and it just came

00:53:46   out today, and I'm reading about it after work, so forgive me if I'm getting some parts of it wrong.

00:53:50   But the exploit, as it has been explained to me in various articles and over Twitter,

00:53:59   so take that for what it is, is that during the speculative execution of instructions,

00:54:09   it will start executing instructions before it's sure whether they are valid things to do. And

00:54:13   depending on what mode your CPU is in and what address it's trying to reference and so on and

00:54:18   so forth, there are certain things that you could be trying to do that are invalid. Reading from a

00:54:22   memory location that you're not allowed to read from because it's not mapped into your process

00:54:26   or something like that or whatever. Or reading from kernel memory, which is a distinction that

00:54:32   exists in pretty much all modern processors of having memory space that belongs to the kernel,

00:54:38   that can't be read by usual processes.

00:54:41   And it will do the speculative execution

00:54:43   and then eventually figure out, oh, you're

00:54:46   not supposed to do that.

00:54:47   I wasn't supposed to do it.

00:54:48   And it'll be like, oh, well, OK, I'm

00:54:49   not allowing that to proceed.

00:54:50   You're not going to actually be able to do whatever

00:54:52   it is you were trying to do, even though I kind of sort

00:54:55   of already executed part of it.

00:54:56   But never mind, let me undo that.

00:54:59   And so it undoes it, right?

00:55:00   But given how far ahead of itself

00:55:04   it does speculative execution, not just like one or two

00:55:06   things ahead but several things ahead.

00:55:10   If the instructions are dependent on each other, so I'm going to speculatively execute

00:55:15   this operation here, and then I'm also going to speculatively execute the next one, which

00:55:21   depends on the result of the first one, and then it turns out like you weren't allowed

00:55:24   to do that one and so it rolls everything back, right?

00:55:28   So it's not like you actually successfully read something you weren't supposed to.

00:55:32   But the side effects of doing those operations can leave a bunch of crap in the cache, and

00:55:39   you're like, "Well, so what?

00:55:40   The stuff that's in the cache is not the stuff that I wasn't supposed to read, because that

00:55:43   never got there, because I wasn't even supposed to do that read."

00:55:45   But because the thing you weren't supposed to read influenced what got put in the cache

00:55:54   from the other instruction, you can back solve and figure out what the place you weren't

00:56:01   supposed to read from was based on how the result of that was used to get, I know this

00:56:06   is very confusing, like it's basically like looking at the side effects of an operation

00:56:11   that you weren't supposed to do and that was actually rolled back just to figure out what

00:56:16   that number must have been, what that memory address must have been, and in that way you

00:56:21   can figure out, someone was saying even like just a bit at a time, like you can figure

00:56:25   out what the most significant or least significant bit of that address used to be. You can slowly

00:56:29   but surely reveal the entire contents of physical memory, much of which belongs to processes

00:56:35   that you're never supposed to see.

00:56:37   And that is a pretty terrible bug, which basically means all the protections of saying, "You

00:56:41   just can't read arbitrary memory on the system," because all sorts of stuff is in memory, like

00:56:45   encryption keys and the password that someone just typed and all sorts of stuff is in memory,

00:56:51   like in physical memory on your computer.

00:56:53   All the protections of the operating system and the CPU and all that stuff are supposed

00:56:57   prevent you from reading memory from processes that belong to the operating system itself,

00:57:03   memory from processes that belong to other users. For example, if you're using AWS, Amazon

00:57:08   Web Services, or other shared hosting where your stuff may be running on the same real

00:57:15   or virtual CPU as other people's stuff, and you have no visibility to them, you don't

00:57:19   see their other processes or whatever, but physically speaking, the machine that you're

00:57:22   running on in RAM next to your information is somebody else's information. If you can

00:57:27   dump all RAM by using this X point to slowly reveal every single address in memory, that's

00:57:33   really, really, really bad. And this is not just like, oh, someone, like there's a bug

00:57:39   in this processor, like the fdiv bug or something, and they'll just fix it by making a new version

00:57:42   of the processor. This is more or less inherent in the way speculative execution works. Like

00:57:47   their whole cleanup process actually does the cleanup, but they didn't realize that

00:57:52   And the thing that was valid to do, if it was influenced by the thing that was invalid

00:57:56   to do, can leave information hanging around such that you can back solve and figure out

00:58:01   what the invalid information you were supposed to be getting out was.

00:58:04   That's my attempt to explain this and why it's not just like, "Oh, there's a mistake

00:58:07   in Intel CPU and they'll fix it."

00:58:09   It's why it affects all Intel CPUs for the past many, many years, not just one thing.

00:58:15   It's why it also affects ARM CPUs.

00:58:17   ARM came out and said, "Yes, this affects our CPUs as well."

00:58:20   AMD says it doesn't affect their CPUs because they do speculative execution in a different

00:58:25   way.

00:58:26   And it's not like this is unfixable, but you will have to, to fix it in hardware, you'll

00:58:31   have to change the way the hardware works.

00:58:33   And the general trade-off they're making here is the hardware wants to be fast, so it's

00:58:37   like, "We'll clean up after ourselves and try to be secure, but if we don't have to

00:58:42   clean something up like that information that was pulled into that cache line or whatever,

00:58:46   oh, you don't need to clean it up because that was from the valid operation, so that

00:58:48   one is fine."

00:58:49   It's garbage data, but it's not insecure.

00:58:51   It's not like we're leaving information in there

00:58:52   that will let someone get something.

00:58:54   So just leave it there because it would be more costly

00:58:57   to erase that, right?

00:58:58   And they're gonna have to make different trade-offs

00:59:03   to get rid of this, 'cause it's not like something

00:59:05   they can, you know, first of all, they can't fix it

00:59:07   in the CPUs that are already out there,

00:59:08   'cause it's out there, it's out there.

00:59:10   And they can fix it in a future architecture

00:59:12   so they take it into account,

00:59:13   but it's going to make a big difference.

00:59:15   Now the fix for it in software

00:59:16   that people are slowly rolling out

00:59:18   and that actually is in a Mac OS 10.3 point,

00:59:22   what is it, 10.13.2?

00:59:23   - Yep.

00:59:24   - Has this fix according to one random person on Twitter.

00:59:27   The fix they're doing is basically to say that

00:59:30   when you're in a process, don't map the kernel

00:59:32   into the same address space as the process.

00:59:36   Put it in an entirely different address space entirely,

00:59:39   like entirely separate address space

00:59:41   so you can't use this exploit

00:59:42   so that you would have to switch modes

00:59:44   and go into, switch memory images

00:59:46   and go into an entirely different address space,

00:59:47   which is slower, and people are doing benchmarks and saying,

00:59:50   okay, with this software fix where we shove the kernel

00:59:52   into an entirely different place,

00:59:53   instead of allowing the kernel to virtually live

00:59:55   inside the same virtual address space

00:59:57   as every user land processor,

00:59:58   which makes it really easy to,

01:00:00   when you switch into kernel mode to do kernel stuff,

01:00:02   then user stuff, right?

01:00:03   It makes it slower to do that

01:00:04   if you more widely separate them,

01:00:06   but it fixes this vulnerability.

01:00:08   So everyone now is benchmarking how much slower is it?

01:00:10   Is it 30% slower?

01:00:12   Is it 1% slower?

01:00:14   Is it only slower when you do heavy IO?

01:00:15   Is it only slower in our synthetic benchmarks,

01:00:18   but it's just the same and normal?

01:00:19   Does the frame rate of my game go down?

01:00:21   So now everyone's applying patches to their Linux kernels

01:00:25   or trying the Windows patch version or whatever,

01:00:27   and trying to see just how bad the performance hit is.

01:00:32   But this is a really critical, serious bug

01:00:35   because the only way it's really, truly gonna be fixed

01:00:39   at the hardware level is for them

01:00:41   to make different design decisions,

01:00:44   different fundamental design decisions about speculative execution in their CPUs. And they're

01:00:51   going to have to figure out a way to do that, so it's fast too. And everyone's freaking

01:00:54   out about it, especially for things like shared hosting, because you can exploit this from

01:01:00   anywhere, basically. If you can just get code to run on the CPU at a low enough level, then

01:01:08   you can just dump the entire contents of memory of that machine. No matter your processes,

01:01:12   people's processes, the operating system, everything. It's like heart bleed times a

01:01:16   thousand. Like, not just get information about the process that you're exploiting, get information

01:01:22   about anything else that is running on the hardware, which is slightly terrifying. So,

01:01:27   understandably, everyone who does shared hosting and everyone who has an operating system is

01:01:31   all busily trying to update their kernels to work around this thing at the cost of a

01:01:36   potential speed hit and then dealing with the fallout of that speed hit. But yeah, so

01:01:41   So Apple's already got the fix in the latest version of High Sierra.

01:01:46   There was some tweet about the upcoming version of High Sierra having something else in regard

01:01:51   to this.

01:01:52   Someone in the chat just pointed out that there are JavaScript proof of concepts.

01:01:55   Like when I say you can get something to run on the CPU, it doesn't matter what it is.

01:02:01   Imagine running JavaScript that accidentally dumps the entire contents of your machine's

01:02:07   RAM.

01:02:08   That's bad.

01:02:09   That's pretty bad.

01:02:11   - It's terrifying.

01:02:11   - Again, this is like one of those exploits

01:02:13   like you'd see in a movie and like, that's so stupid.

01:02:15   You can't run something on a webpage

01:02:16   that dumps the contents of RAM.

01:02:18   There's a little thing called memory protection dummy.

01:02:20   - Now wait a minute.

01:02:21   So I think you might be,

01:02:24   either you're misunderstanding these or I am, basically.

01:02:27   So there are two big bugs or two big exploits

01:02:31   that we're talking about here.

01:02:34   The names I think finally came out tonight.

01:02:36   One of them is called Meltdown

01:02:37   and one of them is called Spectre.

01:02:39   And the Meltdown is the one that basically allows

01:02:44   the cache priming effects that you were talking about earlier

01:02:49   like when you try to access an invalid address,

01:02:52   you can basically run timing,

01:02:56   like run very precise timing benchmarks

01:02:58   to figure out like is something cached or not,

01:03:01   and then you can figure out based on that

01:03:03   like roughly what addresses certain kernel functions map to

01:03:09   that have been randomized using address space

01:03:11   layout randomization.

01:03:13   And so that's how you can,

01:03:15   but you can't read other processes' memory space.

01:03:19   You can only read the kernel memory

01:03:21   because the kernel memory has been shadow mapped

01:03:23   into your process space.

01:03:25   And by the way, I am so sorry to anybody listening

01:03:28   who this is over your head.

01:03:30   We can try to explain it, but it would take a long time

01:03:33   'cause we'd have to explain virtual memory

01:03:35   and addresses of functions and interrupts

01:03:39   and everything and it would be kind of a problem.

01:03:41   So I'm so sorry.

01:03:43   Feel free to skip the rest of the chapter if you want.

01:03:45   But anyway, so that's the Meltdown attack.

01:03:48   And then the Spectre attack is not about revealing

01:03:53   kernel addresses of things.

01:03:55   It is about actually dumping kernel memory

01:03:58   and being able to access the contents of kernel memory.

01:04:01   But it's only kernel memory not,

01:04:05   because it is mapped into your process,

01:04:08   not the memory of other processes on the system.

01:04:11   - I'm pretty sure, from the explanation that I read,

01:04:13   I'm pretty sure that either a combination

01:04:15   of these exploits or one or the other

01:04:18   can actually eventually iteratively go through

01:04:20   the entire address space and eventually get

01:04:24   all the contents of RAM by, presumably by

01:04:27   walking your whole giant address space

01:04:30   and causing it to page in to physical space

01:04:32   every one of the things that you read,

01:04:34   pushing out everything else and turning RAM.

01:04:37   It may just be kernel space.

01:04:38   Even if it's just kernel space, that's still pretty bad, because tons of interesting information

01:04:42   isn't there.

01:04:43   But it seemed to me that the reason people are scared about shared hosting is that—and

01:04:48   how you could read processes in a different virtual machine is one of the other proof

01:04:53   of concepts in the Google paper.

01:04:54   That's bad.

01:04:55   Yeah.

01:04:56   That's not just looking at the kernel space that's in your process, but that you're

01:05:00   able to look into the memory inside other virtual machines.

01:05:02   Makes me think that you can actually get just dumps of the contents of RAM.

01:05:07   But these are, you know, so we'll put a bunch of links in the show notes, all of which I

01:05:10   have not had a chance to read, because again, this is all coming out just, you know, today,

01:05:13   now as I'm leaving work, these things are coming out.

01:05:16   There are abstracts, there are white papers, there's proof of concepts on these things.

01:05:21   There's a nice Google site.

01:05:23   Google has one of the projects that they call Google Project Zero, found either one or both

01:05:29   of these exploits originally.

01:05:33   Google also has a good page that explains in sort of much simpler language than we're

01:05:37   doing here, a very broad vague kind of thing about speculative execution exists.

01:05:42   It's supposed to clean up, but some stuff gets left around.

01:05:44   Like that's the, you know, that's all you really need to know to understand the nature

01:05:47   of this thing.

01:05:48   We're trying to get down to the nitty gritty details.

01:05:50   But at Google also lists, okay, here's all the Google, the things Google has.

01:05:54   We have all of our different services and Gmail and Google Cloud things and, you know,

01:05:59   And they go through them all one by one and say,

01:06:02   here's how this is with respect to this bug.

01:06:04   We've patched these, we haven't patched these,

01:06:06   this will be patched soon, which is nice.

01:06:08   I was looking for a similar page from Apple,

01:06:10   but I suppose such a thing is not forthcoming,

01:06:12   or maybe they'll just come out with it tomorrow or whatever.

01:06:15   But every person out there,

01:06:17   I'm assuming Amazon is doing something similar,

01:06:20   has to now explain to you

01:06:23   how many of their systems are vulnerable,

01:06:26   How many have had their kernel patch to fix this and what the timelines are and what you

01:06:34   can expect as the customer.

01:06:36   Like if you have an Android phone, is that vulnerable?

01:06:38   How old is your Android phone?

01:06:39   Who makes it, so on and so forth.

01:06:41   Because this type of vulnerability is really scary.

01:06:45   Basically if you cause untrusted code to run on your CPU, and again, trying to do it from

01:06:53   JavaScript that shows you like code, I wouldn't run untrusted code. Oh, do you load web pages?

01:06:57   Because you're running essentially untrusted code then. You know, bad things can happen.

01:07:03   Now, as for the performance issues, when I first thought this was a performance bug,

01:07:10   I wasn't that worried about it because I was like, well, no matter how big the performance problem

01:07:14   is, if you're not worried about being exploited, you know what I mean? Like I can imagine like

01:07:21   having a toggle switch that says switch into this mode and I'm just going to run a local

01:07:25   game that I trust, right?

01:07:27   And I'll get full performance from my game.

01:07:30   But the more I hear about this bug, the more I think that whatever the performance hit

01:07:35   is, we're all just going to have to live with it until Intel and ARM and everybody else

01:07:41   who is susceptible to this update, like produce new versions of their microarchitecture, produce

01:07:46   new chips essentially.

01:07:49   There's nothing you can do about the iMac Pro that Marker got now.

01:07:52   He's just going to have to run it in the slow mode to be protected from this.

01:07:55   I mean, he already is, basically, because he's got the latest High Sierra.

01:07:58   So guess what?

01:07:59   You're already doing it.

01:08:00   But there's nothing you can do until you wait for Intel to come out with a new chip that

01:08:04   is not susceptible to this, because it's not—like I said, it's not a bug or a problem or someone

01:08:09   made a boo-boo and they meant it to work one way and it works the other way.

01:08:12   This is working as designed.

01:08:13   It's just an attack that they didn't account for.

01:08:16   And so there's really nothing to do except go back to the drawing board and say, "How

01:08:20   can we design a CPU that is fast but that is not susceptible to this category of attack?"

01:08:28   It's not just one clever thing with one silly value that trips up something.

01:08:32   It's an entire category of attacks that exploit the predictability of what's supposed to be

01:08:37   unpredictable.

01:08:38   Like one part of one of these exploits, I think, was like they had completely figured

01:08:43   out exactly how the branch predictor works on a particular Intel CPU that helps them

01:08:49   predict what it's going to do in various situations.

01:08:51   Because you do have to manipulate the speculative execution to get it to do what you want.

01:08:55   You need to know which things it's going to speculatively execute in which order so that

01:09:00   you can set things up to produce a side effect that gives you actionable information about

01:09:04   the thing that wasn't supposed to be read.

01:09:07   Anyway, if your eyes are glazing over, we apologize.

01:09:11   look at all the various PDFs and web pages we will link in the show notes and then I

01:09:16   guess we'll come back next week and if we're all still alive and the entire world hasn't

01:09:20   burned down in a year 2000 style apocalypse then we can talk about it more.

01:09:26   In the year 2000.

01:09:28   It seems that it's probably going to be, it's probably going to end up being a really interesting

01:09:35   thing to extreme nerds and most people are probably not going to notice, at least on

01:09:40   On other platforms, I don't know how big the differences are

01:09:43   because of how they manage memory and stuff,

01:09:45   but on Macs, people are saying,

01:09:47   who know more about this than we do,

01:09:49   that any Mac that has the PCID feature on the Intel chip,

01:09:54   which pretty much all modern chips do

01:09:58   from the last five or so years,

01:10:00   it's not a major performance hit

01:10:03   if your Mac is one of these.

01:10:05   And again, the problem with us trying to talk about this

01:10:09   this week, it's so big of a story, probably,

01:10:13   that we really can't ignore it.

01:10:14   We really can't say, "Oh, we'll talk about this next week

01:10:16   "because we don't know enough about it yet."

01:10:18   The reality is we're gonna talk about it

01:10:19   probably both this week and next week

01:10:21   because we're gonna understand it better next week

01:10:22   and more news will have happened,

01:10:24   more of the patches will be out,

01:10:26   we'll be able to see some of the performance impacts

01:10:28   that it has.

01:10:29   So this is probably a really big story,

01:10:33   but we don't really know yet.

01:10:35   It could just be fixed and nobody notices

01:10:38   the impact and we all move on.

01:10:41   So we apologize, we'll do our best to cover it next week

01:10:44   also if there's more news to cover,

01:10:46   and I guess we'll just see what happens.

01:10:48   But if you are a user who has somehow made it through

01:10:51   this explanation and has not skipped the chapter yet,

01:10:54   and you don't really understand it,

01:10:55   and you're worried about it, I would say

01:10:59   there's probably not reason to be significantly concerned

01:11:03   as an end user from what we know so far.

01:11:05   - It would just make, you know, update,

01:11:07   update your operating systems, though.

01:11:09   - Yeah, yeah, definitely, like, install the updates

01:11:10   and everything, but like, it's not going to all of a sudden

01:11:13   make your computer super slow.

01:11:14   It's not gonna throttle your battery or whatever,

01:11:16   like, it's not gonna--

01:11:17   - That should be the new thing, we should tell people

01:11:18   that Microsoft is throttling your Windows computer

01:11:21   and Linux is, if only Linux was a company,

01:11:24   tell people it's a company, they'll believe it.

01:11:25   The Linux company is throttling your Linux computer

01:11:28   by introducing a kernel patch that can do,

01:11:30   produce up to a 30% speed loss.

01:11:32   Look at this select one benchmark in Postgres.

01:11:35   Look how much slower it is.

01:11:38   Linux is slowing down your computer.

01:11:40   - To make you buy a new Linux.

01:11:42   - Which is true, they literally are.

01:11:43   They're literally patching the kernel to make it slower.

01:11:46   - Oh my God.

01:11:47   (laughing)

01:11:49   - And so did Microsoft and so did Apple,

01:11:50   but no one is benchmarking Apple to,

01:11:53   no one is running servers on,

01:11:55   Mac servers and mission critical things like.

01:11:57   The AWS thing, I heard a bunch of people like that.

01:11:59   If you had a bunch of systems that were near the edge

01:12:01   their performance envelope on the EC2 instances that you've provisioned, and they all take

01:12:06   like a 2% performance hit, and suddenly you go that next few percentage, and now you kind

01:12:13   of have a problem and have to get some more hardware.

01:12:15   This can actually affect, even though it's a small effect, anything you do in cloud computing

01:12:21   can have a ripple effect if you're close to the edge of your capacity.

01:12:25   So I feel kind of bad that they have to update.

01:12:28   If this has a big effect on you, besides the fact that

01:12:32   pretty much every server and cloud instance

01:12:34   is probably gonna have to be rebooted in the next few days,

01:12:37   that's gonna be a bigger problem.

01:12:40   Rebooting all the servers is gonna be

01:12:41   a more disruptive effect of this than I think anything else.

01:12:44   - Well, it could disrupt your monthly bill.

01:12:47   - Yeah, but if it disrupts your bill by a meaningful amount,

01:12:50   then either this problem is way worse

01:12:53   than we thought it was on Linux,

01:12:54   or you were already running too close to capacity anyway.

01:12:59   - Yeah, that's the thing is it depends on workload.

01:13:01   So if anything's gonna have a weird workload

01:13:03   that happens to be like super IO intensive

01:13:05   or something like that, it's some sort of,

01:13:06   you know, like running a database server

01:13:08   that it just all it does all day

01:13:09   is just tremendous amounts of IO

01:13:11   and a 5% hit to your million dollar bill.

01:13:15   That 5% is a big increase in the amount of hardware.

01:13:19   Anyway, we'll see how it is.

01:13:21   I bet most people will just patch and update everything,

01:13:23   But like any one of these problems, you're like, "But not everybody's going to patch."

01:13:27   And so this is like Heartbleed even.

01:13:30   You never know, like, for how long are there going to be systems with, like, the known

01:13:36   vulnerable hardware spans many years, and probably many vendors, at the very least Intel

01:13:40   and ARM.

01:13:43   How long is that bum hardware going to be out there, and how much of the hardware will

01:13:46   never be updated to run a kernel that is patched to avoid this vulnerability?

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01:15:49   - So Erin Bushnell writes,

01:15:54   "Suppose you had to give up your Mac and solely use iOS,

01:15:59   "but Apple agreed to add one iOS feature of your choice.

01:16:03   "What would it be?"

01:16:05   And let's start with Marco, please.

01:16:07   - I had a really hard time with this question

01:16:10   because if I were to solely use iOS,

01:16:14   I mean, that presumes a lot of things,

01:16:17   like can I still make iOS apps on iOS?

01:16:22   Like is there a way for me to do that?

01:16:24   Because otherwise my career has a problem.

01:16:28   - iOS has a problem if there's no way to make iOS apps.

01:16:31   - Well that's true.

01:16:33   Yeah, that's, yeah.

01:16:34   So like, I mean technically I suppose I should say

01:16:38   my answer is the iOS feature that would make me use iOS

01:16:42   would be Xcode, but it's so much more complicated than that.

01:16:46   So let's assume that somehow the tools to do

01:16:50   software development exist as part of this new

01:16:53   theoretical world where I'd be forced to use iOS.

01:16:57   Other than that, I think I would have to say

01:17:00   just larger screen devices, because,

01:17:03   like John's wish for the 27-inch iPad,

01:17:07   honestly, I don't love that concept for myself

01:17:11   the way I work, but whenever I try to do anything on iOS

01:17:16   that is non-trivial, I run into screen size limitations

01:17:20   really fast, and I've tried the 12.9 inch iPad briefly,

01:17:24   that I didn't find that that was for me,

01:17:26   just physically it felt weird to have like a handheld device

01:17:29   of that size for me, so I don't know how this would be

01:17:33   in practice, but just some way to get larger screen space.

01:17:37   I mean, if only there was a way that the physical size

01:17:40   of the input devices that I was interacting with

01:17:42   was not tied to the screen size of the device I was using.

01:17:46   Maybe we could have like a little proxy touch device

01:17:50   that I could touch that was smaller,

01:17:52   maybe like the size of like a large iPhone maybe.

01:17:55   I could touch that, maybe put on the desk.

01:17:58   And then I could have a nice big screen

01:18:01   like a little bit back, maybe vertical,

01:18:02   so I could see it better,

01:18:03   where I could arrange a whole bunch of small apps

01:18:07   in little rounded rectangles

01:18:09   that maybe I can move around and rearrange as necessary.

01:18:11   Something like that.

01:18:12   - I see what you did there.

01:18:15   John?

01:18:16   - Marco cheated, 'cause this was supposed to be

01:18:19   an iOS feature and he started describing hardware,

01:18:21   but we'll let it slide in just a time.

01:18:23   My iOS feature, I think I would probably go

01:18:27   with external storage support,

01:18:29   'cause it doesn't sound fancy,

01:18:32   but it's a really annoying limitation

01:18:35   that on an iOS device, you can't just plug something in

01:18:38   and then like go to the files app and just like drag things around in it and like go

01:18:42   from dropbox and drag things like mounting storage so that it's available to every single

01:18:47   application sort of natively everywhere.

01:18:50   It's just an unnecessary thing that impedes, you know, like it seems like the battle world

01:18:57   where instead of there being like sort of an equivalent of the finder or whatever, that

01:19:02   everything is application specific.

01:19:04   So yeah the photos application can read from your SD card or whatever but SD card is not

01:19:07   universally available and mounted as a volume to any application that wants to look at it

01:19:12   because that's just not the way iOS rolls with the file system.

01:19:14   So if I had to use it all the time, I would want it to act in a slightly more Mac-like

01:19:21   manner with regards to storage.

01:19:24   For me, I was going to say like a real true-to-form terminal, which I know you can get from like

01:19:30   Jailbreaking and I know you can get, you know, wonderful apps like, what is it, Prompt?

01:19:35   Is that what I'm thinking of?

01:19:36   - Yeah, but that doesn't open up a local terminal,

01:19:40   that's for connecting to other machines.

01:19:41   - Exactly.

01:19:42   But I think if I had to choose just one,

01:19:44   what I'd actually choose is just being able to side load apps

01:19:48   without going through the App Store

01:19:50   and understanding their risks involved and blah, blah, blah.

01:19:52   But I think I would just wanna be able to side load apps

01:19:55   and I think that would make a tremendous difference.

01:19:56   - That's a good one.

01:19:57   - And I mean like, you know, being able to download a binary

01:20:01   in the same way that you can on a Mac

01:20:03   or, you know, the same way you would get a binary

01:20:05   the App Store, but have it not come from the App Store.

01:20:09   So that's what I would say.

01:20:11   Brandon Butler asks, and I'm going to slightly tweak the

01:20:14   verbiage here, could all of you give some specific details

01:20:18   about why you don't like Windows?

01:20:20   I'm genuinely curious.

01:20:23   As the potential most recent Windows user, I'll kick this

01:20:26   off and say, I haven't used Windows for more than a few

01:20:30   minutes in about a year and a half.

01:20:32   But the last time I used Windows, which was Windows 10, I believe, the things that bothered

01:20:39   me about it the most were high DPI was not pervasive throughout the entire operating

01:20:46   system, so some things worked at what we would call retina resolutions in the Mac world and

01:20:51   some would not.

01:20:53   They're clearly in the midst of a...

01:20:55   They were at the time in the midst of a transition, so there was a control panel, but then there

01:21:00   were like other places to tweak a lot of the same settings or sometimes some settings were

01:21:06   only in the control panel or only in other places and it's really really really frustrating especially

01:21:12   if you're not deep in the windows world to figure out okay which one of these two or three places

01:21:17   do i need to go to in order to say change your desktop resolution or something like that and

01:21:21   a third of all the third-party apps while there is an unbelievable amount of third-party apps for

01:21:30   Windows. Most of them, in fact, I would almost say the overwhelming majority of them are utter garbage.

01:21:36   And look at something like, the last time I used Audacity, it was very, very powerful, but it was

01:21:43   visually, I'm not going to say offensive, but hideous. And Audacity is available on the Mac,

01:21:50   as far as I'm aware, but it is like the quintessential GarageBand equivalent for Windows.

01:21:55   and it is just hideous to look at.

01:21:59   And I just don't think that third-party developers

01:22:01   on the Windows platform really take design

01:22:04   nearly as seriously as your average third-party developer

01:22:08   on the Mac.

01:22:09   I believe we started with Marco last time,

01:22:11   so John, let's move to you.

01:22:12   - So luckily this question just says,

01:22:15   "Some specific details of why I don't like Windows,

01:22:17   "so I don't have to be exhaustive."

01:22:18   You already touched on a bunch of them.

01:22:20   I'll throw out some that are near and dear to my heart.

01:22:25   The basic interface paradigm of not having a menu bar at the top of the screen, but instead

01:22:29   having the menu bar embedded in the window, for someone who likes to have a lot of windows

01:22:33   and arrange them, repeating the menu bar in every single one of those windows is incredibly

01:22:37   wasteful and infuriating and it makes it hard to know where the menus are and you know,

01:22:40   you've got the whole infinite height target, yadda yadda.

01:22:42   Not that I had used the menu bar that much, but just the space savings alone to say, look,

01:22:46   we're going to burn the top part of the monitor for the menu bar, but that's it.

01:22:49   No matter how many windows you get open, no more space is taken up by the menu bar.

01:22:53   the obsession with full screen and the tiling features that unfortunately the Mac has copied

01:22:57   where oh, slam the window against the side of the screen, now it's taking up half or

01:23:01   the top third or the bottom third.

01:23:02   That's not how I use Windows.

01:23:03   I don't want that to be that way.

01:23:04   I hate full screen.

01:23:06   I don't like the taskbar or whatever the hell they're calling it these days in the bottom

01:23:11   that's mutated a lot.

01:23:12   I've never liked it.

01:23:13   I don't really like the dock that much either, but I like the dock better than that stupid

01:23:15   thing.

01:23:17   The aesthetics of its DOS origins with backslashes instead of forward slashes and all caps file

01:23:23   names that are shouting at me and dot three extensions and many of those limitations have

01:23:29   been slowly winnowed down over the years, but tons of them are still there, including

01:23:33   stupid things like drive letters, which just aesthetically just give me the willies and

01:23:37   I do not like.

01:23:40   The mouse cursor is, the pointer is white instead of black, which is wrong.

01:23:46   I mean, just, I don't use Windows a lot, but as part of my work, I use it in a virtual

01:23:51   machine enough to be, enough to know that it just doesn't appeal to me in so many ways.

01:23:59   Like, it's like fundamental ways, like how window management works and how applications

01:24:03   work, and sort of the connection between, like, applications and Windows and how they

01:24:08   appear in the taskbar to just little tiny picky things, so just plain old aesthetics

01:24:12   of what icons and menus look like,

01:24:14   and what font rendering looks like,

01:24:15   and drive letters, I mean, just drive letters,

01:24:19   that should have been all I had to say.

01:24:21   (laughing)

01:24:23   - Marco.

01:24:24   - You guys basically covered it,

01:24:25   I mean, it's like death by a thousand cuts,

01:24:28   I mean, it's hard to nail down specifics

01:24:31   without having used Windows in a very long time.

01:24:34   A lot of it comes down to what John said

01:24:37   about just design preferences,

01:24:39   a lot of it comes down to, Casey,

01:24:40   what you said about the quality of most software available

01:24:44   and the community around it just being pretty lacking.

01:24:48   It's just kind of a wasteland of mediocrity

01:24:52   and bad decision making.

01:24:54   If I really had to use something that was not Mac OS,

01:24:59   I honestly think I would be more inclined

01:25:02   to try to use Linux than Windows at this point.

01:25:05   And I used Windows for a very long time.

01:25:06   It's not that I didn't know,

01:25:10   I know what I'm missing, basically.

01:25:11   And while, granted, I haven't used the versions

01:25:15   from the last probably literally 10 years or so,

01:25:19   from what people say, they aren't that much better

01:25:21   in a lot of pretty critical ways

01:25:23   or just kind of in like ecosystem conditions.

01:25:27   So I do think I'm speaking from some position of experience,

01:25:31   you know, probably not as much as Casey,

01:25:33   but more than Jon.

01:25:35   And it just does not fit for me.

01:25:38   which it really seems incredibly mediocre.

01:25:42   And if it's the only thing that I ever knew,

01:25:46   and it's the only thing that was available,

01:25:48   I could make it work.

01:25:50   I would just be annoyed with it pretty frequently,

01:25:52   like I was when I was using it full-time.

01:25:55   - And finally, Mark W. asks,

01:25:56   "If podcast advertising went away overnight,

01:25:59   "would you still do the show?"

01:26:01   I haven't talked to you guys about this,

01:26:03   but we used to, semi-regularly, ask each other,

01:26:06   "Hey, is everyone still cool?"

01:26:08   Now we just assume it, I guess.

01:26:10   But when we started Neutral,

01:26:13   when we first recorded, to my recollection,

01:26:16   we didn't think we had any sort of advertiser at the time.

01:26:20   And then Marco was able to get, was it Squarespace?

01:26:22   Is that right?

01:26:24   - Yeah, for Neutral, we got Squarespace

01:26:25   for the entire run of it.

01:26:27   Like, kind of at the last minute,

01:26:28   like right before we were gonna record

01:26:30   and release the episodes,

01:26:31   my contact there said, "Yeah, we'll take 'em all."

01:26:34   - So it was before we recorded?

01:26:35   I thought it was after, but you would remember better.

01:26:37   at least before we released them.

01:26:39   That, yeah, that I agree on. I can't, it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things. What I was driving at though

01:26:44   is that one way or another, at least for me, when I started doing this, I was doing it just for fun.

01:26:48   I just wanted to talk to my buddies about cars, and it's turned out to be lucrative, which is a tremendous blessing,

01:26:55   and I'm super duper thankful for it.

01:26:57   But yeah, I think, I certainly hope it doesn't go away tomorrow, but if podcast advertising went away tomorrow,

01:27:05   tomorrow, I would absolutely still talk to my two good friends for a couple hours about

01:27:08   nerdy crap each week. I would suffer through. Marco?

01:27:12   - I would do this podcast even if it made a lot less money than it does. And the fact

01:27:16   is if the advertising went away and we had to switch to a direct payment model, I think

01:27:22   it probably would make a lot less money than it does. But I would still love to do it.

01:27:27   And what's nice is that having the money coming in from the ads more strongly justifies putting

01:27:34   putting in a lot of time and doing it on a regular schedule.

01:27:38   If we didn't have the ad money coming in,

01:27:41   it would be a lot easier to say like one week

01:27:43   when it's really busy, "Oh, you know,

01:27:44   "I can't do it this week.

01:27:45   "We'll skip this week and we'll just do it next week."

01:27:48   Or, "We'll skip the next two weeks

01:27:49   "as some of us are traveling

01:27:51   "and it's hard to schedule it," or something.

01:27:53   - Oh, that's a very good point I didn't consider.

01:27:55   And I completely agree with you.

01:27:57   I mean, I don't remember exactly when it was

01:28:00   that we decided this was really a thing,

01:28:02   but it was somewhere around the middle of 2013, which is almost five years ago. And

01:28:09   in almost five years, we have not missed a week. And sometimes, particularly in summertime,

01:28:14   and particularly around Christmas time, we have to do some really ridiculous scheduling

01:28:19   in order to get everything to line up such that all three of us will be here every single

01:28:24   week. And with one exception, when we deliberately traded Jon for Christina Warren, we have always

01:28:30   had all three of us every week for like four and a half years and that is normally very easy but

01:28:36   occasionally extremely difficult and I agree with you Marco we would definitely punt and I wouldn't

01:28:42   say frequently but a lot more than never if there was no if there was no real money involved.

01:28:47   I think you guys covered it I mean practically speaking the show is big enough now that we just

01:28:53   do like Patreon or some sort of direct payment and it would and you know we would just continue

01:28:56   like and I'm not saying that would be the same as advertising Marco said it would almost

01:29:00   certainly be much much less but you know it would be enough to to make it so that

01:29:05   we I think probably maintain the exact same commitment that we have now.

01:29:08   Alright thanks to our sponsors this week Casper Squarespace and Flight Logger and

01:29:13   we will see you next week.

01:29:16   Now the show is over they didn't even mean to begin because it was accidental

01:29:24   Oh it was accidental.

01:29:28   John didn't do any research.

01:29:30   Margo and Casey wouldn't let him.

01:29:33   Cause it was accidental.

01:29:36   It was accidental.

01:29:39   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm.

01:29:44   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S.

01:29:52   So that's Casey List, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M-N-T-Marco-R-M-N-S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-C-R-A-C-R-A-C-R-A-C-R-A-C-R-A-C-R-A-C-R-A-C-R-A-C-R-A-C-R-A-C-R-A-C-R-A-C-R-A-C-R-A-C-R-A-C-R-A-C-R-A-C-R-A

01:30:22   episode of Analog, right?

01:30:23   - I'm not, no, I'm not.

01:30:25   I worked from home today, but I worked today.

01:30:29   So the agreement was once the baby is born, I'm taking--

01:30:32   - Which is any day now.

01:30:34   - Which is-- - Any second.

01:30:35   - Literally, it could be happening--

01:30:36   - Any day is Mac Pro Day and also Baby Day.

01:30:38   - Yeah, no seriously.

01:30:39   - It is possible that the baby might come out

01:30:42   between the time that we record this

01:30:44   and when I release it tomorrow.

01:30:45   - That's true.

01:30:46   - That is possible.

01:30:47   Unlikely, but possible.

01:30:49   So anyway, so yeah, so the agreement with work,

01:30:51   Which, when we recorded Analog, I was going on the assumption that Baby would be born

01:30:56   before the new year.

01:30:57   And there's reasons why I assume that.

01:31:00   It's not really worth getting into.

01:31:01   But suffice it to say, Smart Money said it was already going to be here at this point,

01:31:05   and it isn't here.

01:31:06   So once the Baby is born, I will be off of work for roundabouts of eight weeks.

01:31:13   Something like that.

01:31:14   I'm going, oh, my company changed from 2017 in 2018 to giving us three weeks of paternity

01:31:23   leave instead of two.

01:31:24   So if the baby was born before the new year, I would have only gotten two weeks of paternity

01:31:28   leave.

01:31:29   And since it's been, since the policy has changed and it will be born sometime in 2018,

01:31:33   I'm getting three weeks of paternity leave, which is excellent.

01:31:37   And if you're from another country and you think that's barbaric, hey, welcome to America.

01:31:42   This is how it works here.

01:31:43   three weeks of paternity leave is unheard of around these parts. Anyway, so after those three weeks of

01:31:49   paternity leave, I've told work, "Hey, I'm just going to take some unpaid leave. I'm going to

01:31:55   leverage FMLA," which is a law in America that says basically they can't fire you or lay you off

01:32:02   when you have to deal with like a big medical issue like a birth. And so I'm going to take

01:32:08   some FMLA and they don't have to pay me, and they won't be paying me, but I'm just going to

01:32:13   take a lot of time off. So the thought was that once I was supposed to come back in January,

01:32:20   I would just basically blow off January and February. In reality, what's going to happen is

01:32:24   I'm going to blow off all of January, probably all of February, and maybe even a little bit of March,

01:32:30   depending on when this baby comes. And that's because I want to give Aaron some time to adjust

01:32:36   to having two kids. I want to be there, of course, and I want to adjust to having two kids. And

01:32:43   it would just be nice to have some time with the family. And to bring this back to the SKTP that

01:32:47   we just finished, really the express reason that I am able to do this, other than just being

01:32:54   reasonably financially savvy and not spending eight times what I make, in no small part,

01:33:01   the reason that this is possible is because of every person listening to the show. And to that,

01:33:06   I owe all of you and especially my two co-hosts my deepest gratitude because were it not for the

01:33:12   extra money that this show provides my family, I don't think I would be able to do this and

01:33:16   take some unpaid leave to be with my new baby and my family.

01:33:20   So I'm really excited by it.

01:33:23   I have all these visions of all these outside of work endeavors that I want to work on,

01:33:29   like a video of Aaron's car, which I've filmed a teeny bit of, but very little of.

01:33:34   I want to do an iOS app that's like half cooked, but I have a lot more I want to do for it.

01:33:41   And there's all sorts of other things I wanna do,

01:33:42   but the reality of the situation is

01:33:44   your life is destroyed in the best possible way

01:33:46   for like two months once a, well, at least two months,

01:33:50   once a baby is born.

01:33:52   And so because of that, we'll see if I accomplish

01:33:55   getting changed in the mornings,

01:33:57   or if I'm just stuck in the same PJs for like two months.

01:34:01   But we'll see.

01:34:01   Anyway, why do you bring it up, Marco?

01:34:03   - I would like to make you

01:34:04   a little bit more uncomfortable right now.

01:34:06   - Okay.

01:34:08   - So I apologize in advance.

01:34:09   You're gonna hate this.

01:34:10   - No, no, no, that's fine.

01:34:11   - You need to hear this.

01:34:13   This is your chance to quit your job.

01:34:17   (laughing)

01:34:19   Listen, I'm serious.

01:34:20   Okay, what you're gonna have is two or maybe part,

01:34:24   almost three months of not going to your job every day,

01:34:29   basically not having a job.

01:34:31   So you're gonna have a nice little preview

01:34:33   of what it is like to be independent.

01:34:35   - Oh, it's gonna ruin me.

01:34:36   Oh, it's gonna ruin me.

01:34:37   - So A, yes it will.

01:34:40   B, your job can't fire you for taking this time,

01:34:44   but you're certainly gonna probably be knocked down

01:34:49   the favorites list.

01:34:51   I wouldn't assume that you're gonna be long

01:34:54   for that job anyway.

01:34:55   And C, you've been talking for years about wanting,

01:34:59   how great it would be to work for yourself

01:35:05   full time at home, basically.

01:35:07   To be there with your family,

01:35:09   Basically, I had to do the kind of life

01:35:10   that I hope that I do, which is like,

01:35:13   I'm here when the family needs me,

01:35:14   I can be present for moments,

01:35:15   I can help out around the house,

01:35:17   I can also do some work sometimes and make some money.

01:35:21   The reason I'm able to do it is because

01:35:24   I have good income from a podcast

01:35:27   and I have software development income

01:35:30   making that even better.

01:35:33   Well, I know how much you make from your podcast

01:35:35   because we split this evenly between the three of us,

01:35:38   so you make the same amount that I make

01:35:39   and you make the same amount that John makes.

01:35:41   (laughing)

01:35:42   So I know exactly how much you make from this show

01:35:45   'cause it's the same that I do.

01:35:47   And so I know that's pretty good

01:35:49   and I know of course it's irregular

01:35:53   with when the hell advertisers pay and everything

01:35:55   and we get like bursts of money here and there

01:35:57   and then nothing for months and then big bursts of money.

01:35:59   So it isn't like a normal income.

01:36:01   It doesn't provide health insurance and stuff like that.

01:36:04   So I augment this with software development.

01:36:08   That's basically what you do too.

01:36:10   Your software development is from a job.

01:36:12   Like you're working for somebody else,

01:36:14   they're paying you, they're handling a bunch of crap for you,

01:36:16   it's pretty consistent, et cetera.

01:36:17   So, this is a chance for you to try

01:36:20   not to do YouTube full time,

01:36:25   because that has a very, very slow ramp up.

01:36:28   You're not gonna get to a YouTube career in two months.

01:36:31   That's not gonna happen.

01:36:33   This gives you a chance to become an iOS consultant

01:36:37   the other part of your income.

01:36:40   So you too will have software development income

01:36:44   as well as podcast income.

01:36:47   That is enough to have a pretty nice life.

01:36:50   And so I'm telling you right now,

01:36:54   I think you should go into this break seriously

01:36:58   with the expectation that you might not go back.

01:37:01   And now I'm telling the listeners,

01:37:05   because I know the kind of listeners that we have

01:37:08   make Casey do this, send, no I'm serious,

01:37:13   make Casey do this because by sending him work,

01:37:18   if you have consulting work, Casey did not ask me

01:37:21   to say this and he's probably really mortified

01:37:22   right now that I'm saying this,

01:37:24   if you have consulting work that Casey could do

01:37:28   for your company, hire him now so that he can get this going

01:37:34   and then in two months, he won't have to go back to his job.

01:37:37   This is your time to do this.

01:37:40   This is an opportunity.

01:37:43   'Cause look, some people are naturals

01:37:46   at going into independent life.

01:37:48   Some people, they jump right in,

01:37:51   or they make a big plan and execute that plan,

01:37:52   and they're able to do it right.

01:37:56   That's not what I did.

01:37:57   I was pushed into it.

01:37:59   I was quit-fired.

01:38:03   I had been kind of wanting to maybe do it

01:38:06   like you say sometimes, but I didn't choose

01:38:08   when that was happened.

01:38:10   I was pushed into the deep end,

01:38:12   and I was so incredibly thankful for that.

01:38:15   It was like the best thing that could have happened to me.

01:38:19   It was an external force forcing me to do something

01:38:23   that I should have done, because I needed that push.

01:38:26   You have that push now, sort of, in a way,

01:38:31   because a baby's coming into your life again,

01:38:33   you know how much work that is,

01:38:35   so you're taking this nice sabbatical from work

01:38:37   to have paternity leave to get things going.

01:38:40   This is your push, make it happen.

01:38:44   And I'm telling you, audience, please,

01:38:48   for the love of God, hire Casey, make him do this.

01:38:53   We will all be so thankful, including Casey,

01:38:58   'Cause look, you will be so much happier.

01:39:01   - You know someone who might not be thankful

01:39:04   and might not be happy?

01:39:06   - No, no, there isn't.

01:39:08   - No, there is this one person that I think

01:39:10   might not be so happy about this

01:39:11   and might not be so thankful, and that's Aaron,

01:39:14   who expects Casey to be on paternity leave

01:39:17   because he's gonna help with the new baby and Declan,

01:39:20   where if instead he's on paternity leave

01:39:22   working on himself, starting his consulting business

01:39:25   while she juggles two screaming children,

01:39:28   I'm thinking maybe she's not gonna be so thankful

01:39:31   for this advice.

01:39:32   Like this is the flaw in this plan.

01:39:33   Like I'm with Marco, we're at the point where,

01:39:36   oh, and by the way, Casey has a new baby.

01:39:37   Like the whole point of this vacation is not

01:39:39   let's launch Casey's independent career.

01:39:41   Like he's taking his time off for a reason.

01:39:45   And everything you're describing

01:39:47   takes time away from the reason

01:39:48   he's supposedly taking off for.

01:39:50   And so I feel like this is maybe not the right time.

01:39:52   And secondarily, having a screaming baby at home

01:39:55   is going to make Casey long for the office on some days.

01:39:58   It's going to be like, "I wish I could leave this house and go to a place with adults and

01:40:03   just do work in quiet peace."

01:40:06   Like, everyone has those moments with babies.

01:40:07   It's just a fact of life.

01:40:08   And so, unfortunately, when he's at the end of this time, he may find himself begging

01:40:13   to go back to the office, which is exactly the opposite of what you want to get him,

01:40:17   like, booted out into the independent lifestyle.

01:40:20   So I'm thinking maybe the timing isn't exactly right.

01:40:23   Obviously, when is the time right?

01:40:24   If you really wanted to make this happen, Marco, you need to get him fired from his

01:40:27   job after he goes back.

01:40:28   >> Marco: Oh, thanks, John!

01:40:29   [laughs]

01:40:30   >> John: But I think in that case, Casey and Aaron both wouldn't be very thankful to you.

01:40:35   So I don't know what the solution is here.

01:40:36   >> Aaron: No, you know, so I appreciate it, first of all.

01:40:40   Let me say I appreciate it.

01:40:42   It's funny because I really don't have any particular interest in going back to consulting.

01:40:51   Let me do that like provide a verbal glossary for a minute when I say consulting I mean

01:40:58   Both flavors of consulting because there's the consulting that I did in years past

01:41:04   Which is I was part of a company and a group of us would be given no poor choice words

01:41:12   But given to another company to do work for that other company and then that work would cease and I would

01:41:18   And I would go back to my original company

01:41:20   So I'm always an employee of my original company, but I bring this up to say I didn't have to pay for health care

01:41:26   Well, I did but you know what? I mean like there was a company health care

01:41:29   I didn't have to drum up work because there was a sales team that did that for me

01:41:34   so I basically just showed up build my hours and left and

01:41:37   So it was still consulting in the sense that I had little to no control over my destiny

01:41:43   But it was not consulting in the same way that you're talking about Marco because the work just fell in my lap

01:41:48   And if it didn't that wasn't really my problem

01:41:51   This is different what you're discussing because it would be forevermore my responsibility to figure out how to put

01:41:58   Money in my pocket and thus how to get work on my desk and that scares the ever-living

01:42:04   crap out of me

01:42:08   you're right to say that the only way I would leave my job is if I had a

01:42:13   Considerable amount of work lined up in advance. So, you know, these two months. No, I know I know

01:42:20   But but hear me out for a second

01:42:22   So the the thought is if if I really want to go down this road

01:42:27   I I think John's right that I don't think I can really do this

01:42:30   I I don't think I could actively start, you know

01:42:32   the the Casey-less Consulting Corp. The Casey Consulting Corp. Very alliterative. Anyway,

01:42:38   I couldn't start Casey Consulting Corp while I was off because John's absolutely right. Like,

01:42:43   the point of this break is to be with the family, and I don't really want to taint that with work.

01:42:49   But if I knew that at the end of this break, so you know, early to mid-March, I had maybe a month

01:42:59   or two of solid work lined up, I would certainly consider not going back to my jobby job. But

01:43:08   that's a really hard thing to do. And you're absolutely right, Marco, to say, "Eh, that's

01:43:13   not, it's not quite so easy." But it would, it would take a lot for me to take this stable,

01:43:18   well, what I perceive as a stable paycheck, and yes, we can get into the argument that

01:43:22   no paycheck is stable, blah, blah, blah. But to say no to the stable paycheck and healthcare,

01:43:28   instead say, "You know what? I'll just figure it out." I'm not a "I'll just figure it out"

01:43:32   kind of guy in a lot of ways. All of that said—

01:43:34   Neither was I.

01:43:35   No, I know, I know. And all of that said, what I haven't mentioned yet is that I've

01:43:41   been talking to a lot of our mutual friends and feeling out, "Hey, I know you probably

01:43:47   don't have enough work for a full-time partner, but do you have a little bit of work you could

01:43:53   send my way?" And I hadn't had a chance to ask you this question, Marco, but you

01:43:57   You were on the list of people I wanted to talk to about this, you know, because my vision—

01:44:01   Marco doesn't work well with others, sorry.

01:44:02   I know he doesn't, but yet here we are four and a half years later.

01:44:06   So there is something to be said for Marco's ability—

01:44:08   He's not programming work.

01:44:09   I know.

01:44:10   Marco even fired his support people.

01:44:11   He can't even have someone do support.

01:44:13   I know.

01:44:14   It's better to just not do support than to have someone hire someone to do support.

01:44:17   He works alone like Batman, sorry.

01:44:20   Can I not be your Robin, Marco?

01:44:21   No room for Robin.

01:44:22   Can I not be your Robin?

01:44:23   No, but seriously though, I've been polling a lot of our mutual friends to say, "Hey,"

01:44:29   you know, and my thought has basically been, "Well, if Marco can give me five hours a

01:44:35   week fairly reliably," and I'm not asking you to say yes or no right now, I'm just

01:44:39   saying hypothetically, Marco says—

01:44:40   What would that cost?

01:44:41   Honestly, I'm asking.

01:44:42   Because I don't even know—I have no concept of what consultants cost.

01:44:47   Well, the thing is, I don't really either, which means I haven't really done my homework.

01:44:51   Would this be like $1,000?

01:44:52   Is that—

01:44:53   I have no idea.

01:44:55   - I think what it would basically amount to is--

01:44:57   - More than that, okay.

01:44:58   - Well, so I--

01:44:59   - So we're talking like five grand a month at least, or?

01:45:01   - So an hourly, a reasonable hourly rate

01:45:04   is anywhere between 100 and like $300

01:45:08   depending on geography, skill level, et cetera.

01:45:10   So call it, let's split the difference

01:45:13   and call it $150 an hour,

01:45:15   times say five hours a week, times four weeks a month,

01:45:19   that's like three grand a month, right?

01:45:20   So, and again, I'm not asking you to say anything right now.

01:45:23   I'm just trying to pose a hypothetical here.

01:45:25   So if you say to me, you know what, Casey,

01:45:26   I'm good for three grand a month

01:45:28   for at least a couple of months, maybe even six months.

01:45:30   - You know what, I would do that if you quit your job.

01:45:34   (laughing)

01:45:35   - Well, that's what I'm saying.

01:45:35   - I'd find something for you to do,

01:45:37   whether it's like working on stuff on the app

01:45:39   that I can't get to or doing the web app

01:45:41   or you can make yourself a Mac app, I don't care, I'd do that.

01:45:43   (laughing)

01:45:45   - Well, and I appreciate that.

01:45:46   Genuinely, that's very kind of you.

01:45:47   - I'm serious.

01:45:48   - But you know, I know you are.

01:45:49   only if you become a full-time consultant.

01:45:51   - I know, oh I know there's caveats here.

01:45:54   But my hypothetical is-- - It's like Kickstarter.

01:45:56   You gotta like complete the whole thing.

01:45:58   - So yeah, that's kind of what it is though, right?

01:46:02   So you dedicate five hours a month for six months

01:46:07   and Underscore dedicates another five hours a month

01:46:10   for six months, or five hours a week, I'm sorry,

01:46:12   five hours a week for six months and Underscore says,

01:46:15   yeah, I think I could get five hours of work your way

01:46:18   six months, suddenly, you know, I'm at 10 hours. And if I do that four more times over, that's a

01:46:24   full work day. Well, to an American anyway, 40 hours a week is full work week. Now, maybe the

01:46:29   answer is I just understand that I'm taking a pay cut. And maybe I only work 30 hours a week. And I

01:46:36   just am okay with that. You know what I mean? So like, I haven't really taken this too seriously

01:46:41   yet. But I will say that I've talked to a few of our mutual friend, a couple of our mutual friends

01:46:44   and started to float this idea of, "Hey, if you have things that you can't get to or don't

01:46:50   want to be bothered by, and you're willing to throw money at that problem, hey, think

01:46:57   of me. You know, I could maybe make that work." And I don't know if that's going to work out,

01:47:03   but that's like my fantasy world, where I have all of the perks of being my own man

01:47:08   and leaving the jobby job and doing my own thing, but at least in the beginning, very

01:47:13   little of the drama about it, hypothetically, in that I've already established that between

01:47:20   you and Underscore and Bob and Susie and Timmy and Sally, I know that I'm going to get, you

01:47:28   know, 40 hours of, or 30 hours or whatever of work out of you for at least a few months

01:47:33   to at least get me going. And then at that point, in theory, it should hopefully start

01:47:40   taking care of itself. And I can either, you know, talk to local businesses if I need to,

01:47:44   or maybe it turns out that you and I work super well together and in this capacity,

01:47:49   and maybe you say, you know what, let's go have half and half on overcare. Obviously,

01:47:53   I'm talking about my butt here, but you know what I mean? Like, maybe that'll start to

01:47:56   figure itself out after that. And that's like my fantasy land. But we'll see what actually

01:48:02   ends up happening. But the tough thing about it is just what Jon said, like, I think I

01:48:05   can do some of this, I can do some of the hustling during this two months, but I don't

01:48:09   think I can do the actual working during this two months, you know?

01:48:14   Even your optimistic projections make me think that your consulting work will pay for the

01:48:18   healthcare you're giving up by leaving a job based on how much Marco is paying for

01:48:22   healthcare as an independent, you know. Like, maybe it's cheaper where you are than it

01:48:27   is in New York. Well, I'm sure it is.

01:48:28   But healthcare costs a lot, so yeah. Because that's the main thing I feel like you're

01:48:34   giving up. Well, it's just a number, though. That's

01:48:36   That's the thing, so many people, myself included,

01:48:39   were scared to go independent because of health insurance.

01:48:41   And that's a big reason, but it's just a number.

01:48:44   So it isn't that you can't buy it,

01:48:46   it isn't that you can't have health insurance,

01:48:48   it's that you have to figure out a way

01:48:50   to make that much money.

01:48:52   Remove the emotional drain of it

01:48:56   as being this big thing in your life

01:48:58   and just consider it like,

01:49:00   if I'm going to be independent,

01:49:01   I have to at least make this amount more than I think I do

01:49:04   to pay for the health insurance.

01:49:05   And that's all it is, it's just a number.

01:49:08   - Yeah, but it's a big number, that's the point.

01:49:10   - Yeah, it's like over $1,000 a month

01:49:12   for almost any situation with a family,

01:49:14   but again, that's just a number.

01:49:17   You're paying that now, sort of, with work taxes

01:49:23   and what they pay you versus what they're charging.

01:49:25   Someone's paying it now.

01:49:27   It isn't that your healthcare now is free.

01:49:30   It's being paid for somehow.

01:49:32   But anyway, this is an incredible opportunity

01:49:35   that you have here, you basically have the ability,

01:49:40   you have the opportunity to dip your toe in the water

01:49:44   of this market to see if this is the kind of thing

01:49:47   that you can and want to do.

01:49:49   Now granted, as John said, you're also gonna be taking care

01:49:52   of a family with a newborn in it.

01:49:54   So that's, you're gonna be busy and tired,

01:49:57   but this is an opportunity that is unique

01:50:02   in your life right now.

01:50:04   You're not gonna get a better chance to try this out

01:50:07   than this for a long time.

01:50:09   Like this is a really good chance.

01:50:11   And also, I've really, again,

01:50:13   knowing nothing about the people at your company

01:50:18   or the politics of your job,

01:50:19   because we don't talk about that,

01:50:22   I really don't think that this job is going to be

01:50:26   as long-lasting or stable as you might want

01:50:30   after you take this break.

01:50:32   I don't know any company that would

01:50:34   look favorably upon this.

01:50:36   Even if they say it beforehand, they might think that.

01:50:41   Some of them might, somebody who matters might think that

01:50:44   or might be saying that, but the reality is

01:50:46   you're gonna be kicked down to the bottom

01:50:48   of a totem pole after this.

01:50:49   And if push comes to shove, if they wanna

01:50:54   change things up in the department

01:50:55   or they get new leadership or something,

01:50:59   I would not assume this job would still be there.

01:51:02   So at some point, you're gonna be thrust into this probably

01:51:05   of like, oh, what do I do now?

01:51:08   Right now, you can do that without taking any risks

01:51:10   because you're already,

01:51:12   like you've already booked yourself for this,

01:51:14   for this, you know, paternity leave

01:51:16   and this like sabbatical kind of thing,

01:51:18   whatever you're calling it, like with the company.

01:51:20   - Sure, sure, sure.

01:51:21   - You're already doing this.

01:51:22   You have this chance now laid out for you.

01:51:26   I highly suggest you take advantage of it

01:51:28   and I'm please, I'm asking the audience,

01:51:31   just bury Casey with offers for consulting work.

01:51:36   Just to show him how possible this is.

01:51:39   Like this is totally a thing that people do that can happen.

01:51:45   Most people are like, geez, I would love to get

01:51:48   more consulting work, but I don't have any way

01:51:50   to reach people.

01:51:51   Turns out you have some ways to reach people.

01:51:53   And even though you won't use them this way, I will.

01:51:56   So for the love of God,

01:51:58   - You're too well. - Marry Casey with work.

01:51:59   Give him consulting offers from your companies, people.

01:52:03   Give him your money.

01:52:04   (laughing)

01:52:05   That's what Casey needs.

01:52:06   (laughing)

01:52:07   Because you need that push.

01:52:09   I know, 'cause I needed that push, and I can tell,

01:52:12   many of the things you're saying

01:52:13   about the way you look at these things

01:52:15   is the way I was looking at things.

01:52:17   You need this push.

01:52:18   This is a great opportunity to have that.

01:52:22   For the love of God, audience,

01:52:24   make him take this opportunity.

01:52:26   - I appreciate it.

01:52:27   we'll see what happens. I don't know. I would love for it to be the case, and we'll see what happens

01:52:32   when this episode is released. But I don't know. It's a scary thought. It's a super scary thought.

01:52:38   I am super fiscally conservative within the family's financial world. I am super scared of

01:52:47   risk, and I always pronounce the word wrong. I always want to say adverse, and that's not right,

01:52:51   is it? Anyway, I really don't like taking risks. And the worry wart in me, the chicken

01:53:02   little within me, says, "Are you insane? I'm adding another mouth to feed, another person

01:53:07   to be responsible for that I am wholly responsible for because I am lucky enough that Aaron doesn't

01:53:12   have to work." And yeah, now I'm going to take this reliable paycheck, again, understanding

01:53:16   that not all paychecks are really—well, really, no paycheck is truly reliable, but

01:53:20   just go with me here. I'm going to take this reliable paycheck and say, "Nah, no thank

01:53:24   you." Like, that's bananas. Why would I do that? But on the other side of the coin, I

01:53:29   totally understand where you're coming from. And yeah, you know, if it ends up that I think

01:53:34   I can scrounge up, you know, 30 to 40 hours of work for at least a few months at at least

01:53:41   passable rates, it would be hard to say no to that because having the flexibility to

01:53:46   be with the family would be pretty darn nice. So yeah, we'll see.

01:53:48   - I'll tell you why you'll do it.

01:53:50   Because you are the kind of person who highly values

01:53:54   that presence and time with your family.

01:53:56   That's why you've been talking about it for years.

01:53:59   - Yeah.

01:54:00   - Because you do want to be there.

01:54:03   And, by the way, another reason to possibly give this up,

01:54:07   you could make more.

01:54:09   - Oh yeah, oh certainly.

01:54:10   - Have you considered that?

01:54:12   It's not like you're taking a huge pay cut forever.

01:54:16   you're taking probably a small pay cut for a little while.

01:54:20   And then after that, you could make more

01:54:22   than you were making before,

01:54:23   all while being home much more often.

01:54:27   And this is even setting aside,

01:54:29   like yeah, you're gonna have to have some times

01:54:31   where you can't help out the family

01:54:32   'cause you're busy working.

01:54:33   That's gonna happen, of course, that's a thing.

01:54:35   But you're still gonna have way more time at home

01:54:38   than you do now.

01:54:40   And you'll have also way more flexibility.

01:54:44   And that is so, so nice when like,

01:54:47   I go to all of my kids' doctors appointments,

01:54:51   because I can.

01:54:52   Little things like that,

01:54:57   that stuff just, it adds up and it ends up,

01:55:02   you can have so much more presence in your family's life

01:55:05   if you can be working at home for yourself

01:55:08   and kind of dictate how you spend your own time.

01:55:11   a pretty big change and upgrade of lifestyle. And the only reason a lot of people don't

01:55:19   do it is because a lot of people can't do it. And I totally understand that, but you

01:55:23   I think have a chance here and an opportunity here that a lot of people would kill for.

01:55:29   And that's why I think you should take it. And rather than viewing it as like a huge

01:55:35   risk to taking like a big pay cut and giving up this income instability you have, I would

01:55:42   instead view it as an opportunity to make even more money with way more freedom and

01:55:48   way more presence to your family to establish what would probably end up being the most

01:55:54   stable and bulletproof type of income you could have.

01:55:58   Because you would have diverse sources that are all within your control.

01:56:01   And there's like overall market forces that might affect it,

01:56:04   but that's way less likely to be a problem for you

01:56:08   than like one particular job that you happen to work for,

01:56:12   you know, things going bad there or changing there

01:56:14   or that company having problems or whatever else.

01:56:17   So for the love of God people, hire Casey right like now.

01:56:20   Like I want people to flood you with offers

01:56:23   in the next like two weeks.

01:56:26   'Cause obviously like probably in the next week

01:56:27   you're having a baby.

01:56:28   Like, that's, you know, the next week

01:56:30   is gonna be busy for you.

01:56:32   But like-- - You don't say.

01:56:33   - The week after that, start looking at offers.

01:56:36   And start doing the math, 'cause babies,

01:56:38   I know they're a lot of work, but they do sometimes sleep.

01:56:42   Not for very long, necessarily, but you will have time

01:56:46   where you will be able to like, browse your phone

01:56:48   while you're like, heating up a bottle or something.

01:56:50   Like, you will have time-- - That's when Declan's

01:56:52   gonna stop napping.

01:56:53   - Yeah, exactly. (laughing)

01:56:55   Like, there will be opportunities for you

01:56:58   to check your email and to read your phone

01:57:00   and to run some numbers in silver.

01:57:02   Like, this exists, this is like,

01:57:05   take this opportunity to really give it,

01:57:09   to give this a try.

01:57:10   'Cause the worst thing that happens is

01:57:14   you decide either you hate this

01:57:16   and you wanna go, and you wanna rush back to work.

01:57:19   Like, there's a reason, I don't tell Jon to do this.

01:57:21   'Cause I know Jon would hate this kind of thing.

01:57:23   So I don't tell Jon to do this.

01:57:26   - John loves his day job.

01:57:28   Or at least--

01:57:29   - Do I?

01:57:30   (laughing)

01:57:31   - John loves having a day job.

01:57:32   - That's the correct phrasing for that statement.

01:57:35   - That's also not true.

01:57:36   - Yes it is, John, come on.

01:57:38   You're a company person.

01:57:39   - I'm with Marco on this.

01:57:40   Like, if you have to work at all,

01:57:42   if you have to work at all,

01:57:44   I think you love having a regular, standard,

01:57:47   stable day job, in many of the same ways I do.

01:57:49   I'm not trying to paint you as like a loner on this.

01:57:51   - You don't know my life.

01:57:52   - Oh, God, come on.

01:57:54   - I don't wanna work more than anybody,

01:57:56   more than all of you combined.

01:57:57   (laughing)

01:57:59   Because Vargo's a workaholic

01:58:00   and literally doesn't know how to not work.

01:58:03   And Casey I think is just a middle of the road normal,

01:58:05   but I desperately don't wanna work.

01:58:07   (laughing)

01:58:08   - Yeah, that's probably true.

01:58:09   But the point is, I think, of the three of us,

01:58:12   I would never recommend Jon go independent

01:58:14   because I know he would--

01:58:15   - I would never do consulting, I can tell you that.

01:58:17   If you wanna nail something I hate,

01:58:19   consulting is my idea of a nightmare.

01:58:21   - Right, I know you would hate this,

01:58:23   and so I would never recommend this to you.

01:58:25   But I know Casey, you'd actually, you could do it,

01:58:28   and I think you would appreciate,

01:58:31   I think whatever, 'cause consulting isn't all roses,

01:58:36   but like--

01:58:37   - Oh no, it's not.

01:58:38   In a lot of ways, I hate it, but you're about to say,

01:58:42   I think, what is absolutely true,

01:58:43   that in this fantasy world where I have enough work

01:58:48   laid out in front of me that I can perhaps

01:58:51   even be mildly choosy about it,

01:58:53   and in this fantasy world where I'm able to work from home

01:58:55   and actually get work done and be there for the family

01:58:59   at hours wherein I need to be there.

01:59:01   Like all of that would make the juice worth the squeeze

01:59:04   where even though I really hate the idea

01:59:06   of being a full-time consultant again,

01:59:09   all those perks would make it worth it

01:59:10   if I could be there for the family,

01:59:12   if I could make my own hours and choose my own clients,

01:59:15   et cetera, et cetera.

01:59:16   - Exactly.

01:59:17   Like I really think you could do this.

01:59:20   I really think this is a great chance to do it.

01:59:23   And I think the audience would come through

01:59:27   if you need them to, and you do.

01:59:30   (laughing)

01:59:31   I really think they could make this happen.

01:59:35   'Cause look, you have, like,

01:59:38   look at the opportunity you have.

01:59:40   You have like two or three months of free,

01:59:45   in the sense of like they're not gonna fire you,

01:59:47   free leave from work,

01:59:49   during which you could set this up if you wanted to.

01:59:51   You have a platform where we can beg people to hire you

01:59:55   and 100,000 people are gonna hear this.

01:59:59   And you don't need 100,000 people to hire you,

02:00:01   you need like 10.

02:00:02   (laughing)

02:00:05   - No, but if all 100,000 would like to send me an offer.

02:00:09   - Like this?

02:00:10   Like surely at least 10 people in the audience

02:00:13   can send you a serious offer.

02:00:15   - Oh my word, that's hilarious.

02:00:18   Yeah, I mean, we'll see. We'll see what comes out of this. But it is very kind of you to

02:00:23   make the impassioned plea, and I very, very deeply appreciate it.

02:00:26   Well, one of us has to.

02:00:28   Well, and for the listeners, too, if you've stuck around for this part, I also—again,

02:00:32   I appreciate you guys affording my family the ability for me to take that time off,

02:00:36   even if I squander it and just go crawling back to work. Just the fact that I can take

02:00:40   that time is an extreme blessing, and I'm really thankful for it.

02:00:47   It's funny, with my job, I think I'm more valuable than your painting me, but I think

02:00:54   that's more about circumstance than it is necessarily about, "Oh, I'm so fancy."

02:00:58   As it turns out, the particular employer that I work at, we have two teams, one on the West

02:01:05   Coast, one on the East Coast.

02:01:06   And on the East Coast, the iOS team, as it stands right now, is myself and an intern.

02:01:12   And so it is not in my work's best interest to get rid of me unless they're getting rid

02:01:19   of the entire East Coast operations for iOS, which is certainly possible.

02:01:23   And for a long time, I thought we were on the precipice of doing exactly that.

02:01:27   Now I don't think that's the case.

02:01:29   Here again, I acknowledge you'll never really know.

02:01:31   It could happen tomorrow, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

02:01:33   I am fully aware of that.

02:01:35   But I think I am at least mildly valuable by circumstance, if not by ability.

02:01:43   And I think I am relatively valuable based on ability.

02:01:48   Certainly not a lot of people really understand RxSwift and whether or not you like it, whether

02:01:52   or not you think it's a good idea.

02:01:54   It is a unique skill.

02:01:57   So if anyone is interested in—if anyone happens to want an RxSwift consultant, let

02:02:01   me know.

02:02:03   I think I have more flexibility in this job than I have in most jobs to be at doctor's appointments and be at home when necessary.

02:02:11   And I think that I am more valuable at this job, again, either by circumstance or ability or both, than I am at a lot of places.

02:02:17   However, I still by and large agree with your points that there's no amount of flexibility that is more than working for yourself.

02:02:26   And I did the semi-hard work in 2017

02:02:30   of setting up an LLC for myself,

02:02:31   so some of that administrvia is already taken care of,

02:02:34   and in some ways I'm even better equipped

02:02:36   than to run with this, which is kinda neat.

02:02:39   - Yeah, you're already dealing with having to do

02:02:42   estimated taxes and everything from the income

02:02:44   from this show.

02:02:45   You're already dealing with that from side income

02:02:47   from your podcasting.

02:02:48   And let me offer an alternative perspective

02:02:53   on your current status.

02:02:54   You and I have talked before about the whole, you know,

02:02:56   company having West Coast and East Coast things,

02:02:58   and I didn't know whether you wanted to bring that up

02:03:00   on the show, but since you did bring that up,

02:03:02   let me give you an alternate perspective

02:03:04   on what you just described as your status there.

02:03:06   Your company seemingly used to have a lot more iOS people

02:03:10   on the East Coast.

02:03:12   Now, they're on the West Coast,

02:03:15   and the East Coast has just you left,

02:03:19   and you're about to take off two months.

02:03:22   I would look at this as a really good opportunity

02:03:25   for the company to consolidate their operations

02:03:28   in a new location.

02:03:30   - And I agree with you.

02:03:32   - And also, you're saying you're super awesome

02:03:35   and valuable to the company,

02:03:37   but you're about to take three months off,

02:03:39   and they're gonna have to figure out

02:03:40   how to do things without you, and so they will.

02:03:44   - Oh, totally.

02:03:44   - I'm not saying that you're gonna walk in and march

02:03:47   and be immediately laid off, but I think this is,

02:03:51   And if they're looking to consolidate on the West Coast,

02:03:55   which certainly looks possible,

02:03:58   I think, yeah, this wouldn't make my list

02:04:01   of incredibly reliable paychecks.

02:04:03   - No, and I agree.

02:04:04   Now, for what it's worth, what I haven't mentioned is

02:04:06   we actually have a new iOS developer

02:04:07   starting next week, I believe, or week after.

02:04:11   And that person is fairly junior,

02:04:12   so the understanding was is that they were just

02:04:14   kind of do their thing until I get back,

02:04:18   and then I'll tutor them on the ways

02:04:19   we do things at my employer. But I'm not saying you're wrong by any stretch. I'm just saying

02:04:26   it's not the sort of thing where I've turned the eight ball over and it says all the signs

02:04:29   point to you getting laid off. I'd say some of the signs point to me getting laid off,

02:04:34   but not all of them. But who knows? I don't know. In a perfect world, I will either get

02:04:41   a bazillion wonderful job offers and I'll have to choose who I would like my clients

02:04:46   to be, or there will be nothing but crickets and that will solve the problem a different

02:04:49   way, but we'll see what happens. But anyway, I appreciate you giving me the nudge, and

02:04:56   that's very kind of you.

02:04:57   Oh, I'm dead serious. This is not a nudge, this is a push. Audience, you know what to

02:05:00   do.

02:05:01   [BEEPING]