254: Hot Box With Knobs


00:00:00   It feels like I haven't talked to you gentlemen for seven days.

00:00:04   It definitely hasn't been 48 hours. Definitely not.

00:00:07   It has been exactly seven days since we last spoke, allegedly, and boy, there sure was a lot of news seven days ago.

00:00:14   So I think we should talk about that now.

00:00:17   I think that sounds like a good idea. Are we doing any sort of pre-show or are we just going to skip that?

00:00:21   I think that was the pre-show.

00:00:23   Oh, son of a...

00:00:25   So we're gonna start with some follow-up and Alvy Stoddard writes in there's an Apple support document entitled about secure boot

00:00:31   Where it says and I'm quoting full security is the default secure boot setting offering the highest

00:00:37   Level of security and this was it with regard to the t2 chip the liquid metal chip

00:00:43   that is in the iMac Pro and

00:00:46   It is the thing where it will only let you boot stuff that Apple signs in

00:00:53   quasi not really at all accurate summary. So which one of you guys put this in here? Any other thoughts?

00:00:58   Yeah, just put it in there because

00:01:00   Are we pretending that we're recording this not recording this two days after the previous show?

00:01:05   We didn't have a lot of follow up and this is a straightforward follow up. We didn't know what the default was. Apple told us.

00:01:10   We got a lot of follow up seven days ago about this and we wanted to talk about it.

00:01:14   It's interesting that the cranked up security is the default one because remember the full security setting was the one that doesn't even let you

00:01:21   boot if you have an old version of the OS and I'm having a hard time figuring out who

00:01:28   would find that behavior desirable other than people who have a bunch of Macs, other than

00:01:33   enterprise people.

00:01:34   And you know, my old definition of enterprise software, like the people buying the software

00:01:38   and other people using it, well an enterprise situation is where the people deciding how

00:01:42   the computers work are picking things based on how easy it is for them to manage the computers,

00:01:49   based on how nice it is for the people who have to use the computers to use them.

00:01:53   But even in an enterprise scenario, enterprise people don't want their computers automatically

00:01:57   updating without them having extensively tested that every single piece of software on them

00:02:01   is compatible with it.

00:02:02   So I don't know.

00:02:04   Apple phrases this as being like the iPhone.

00:02:06   Oh, it's like the iPhone, all this physical security, so much stronger than the old just

00:02:11   firmware password.

00:02:12   Now it's like an iOS device.

00:02:14   But iOS devices don't refuse to boot unless you up – I mean, they're pretty naggy about

00:02:18   telling you, "Hey, there's a new update. Look at this red badge on your settings app."

00:02:21   But they don't, you know, they don't actually force the update on you. And that's not misunderstanding

00:02:26   how the full security works. But anyway, when Marco gets his Mac Pro, he will be able to

00:02:30   confirm this default, and then I suppose, like, just wait for the first dot release

00:02:35   of High Sierra to come out, and then reboot and see if it demands that you update. You'll

00:02:39   be a good guinea pig, right?

00:02:40   Well, I think we, yeah, a lot of this remains to be seen, but one thing I misunderstood

00:02:45   about it that I've seen, it seems like their language

00:02:48   is such that they're not necessarily requiring you

00:02:51   to have the latest.

00:02:53   They say that they can prevent you from booting versions

00:02:56   that Apple no longer trusts.

00:02:59   So I think what that could mean, and this is not from PR,

00:03:02   this is just from things I've read on the internet,

00:03:05   what that probably means is like if there's a version

00:03:07   of the OS that is an older version that security holes

00:03:10   were discovered in and somebody tries to boot that maybe

00:03:14   or install over your OS with that

00:03:16   so they can get to your stuff,

00:03:17   maybe that's what it's preventing,

00:03:20   which is a legitimate security concern.

00:03:23   Because I can't imagine, if it's actually just like,

00:03:26   whatever is telling it, hey, the newest version is

00:03:30   10.13.7 or whatever, first of all,

00:03:33   what mechanism does it even learn about that from?

00:03:34   That's one question, but if it,

00:03:37   assuming that the secure boot enclave protection unit,

00:03:42   whatever's enforcing this,

00:03:43   - So assuming that doesn't like the version you're running,

00:03:47   I can't imagine it would just like brick your computer.

00:03:50   Like it's probably about preventing you

00:03:52   from rolling it back.

00:03:54   - It's not gonna break it,

00:03:55   it's gonna download the update.

00:03:58   - Yeah, but so your computer can download updates

00:04:00   without you approving it?

00:04:02   - Yeah, like when you boot, it will download the update

00:04:06   before, like as part of the initial boot procedure.

00:04:08   It's like, "Oh, I'm gonna boot, but wait a second,

00:04:09   "I gotta do an update first."

00:04:10   And so it'll download, it'll know from the internet

00:04:12   what the latest version is,

00:04:13   will know from the internet all the information about.

00:04:16   This is the advantage/whatever of having a whole other CPU.

00:04:22   There is a boot procedure to boot up the T2 chip, and that's the thing going to the internet

00:04:27   looking up all this information, downloading the software update, applying it to your computer,

00:04:31   so on and so forth.

00:04:32   But your idea about the fact that it's not just like it has to be the latest, but that

00:04:34   it's only in cases where Apple says there's some version that we absolutely don't want

00:04:38   anyone running, that would make more sense to me.

00:04:41   Because if they do a point release where they fix a bug in mail or something, you don't

00:04:45   want the thing to force that update.

00:04:47   Or an update from Sierra to High Sierra.

00:04:52   Presumably the very last version of Sierra, whatever it was, 10.12.6 or whatever, doesn't

00:04:57   have any terrible security flaws, so it wouldn't force you to download High Sierra when you

00:05:02   boot.

00:05:03   It would only force you to update if there was some terrible security flaw in the one

00:05:08   you had.

00:05:09   I don't know.

00:05:10   because you'll have this thing.

00:05:12   - I mean, that's the only way that I can figure

00:05:14   that this makes sense, because any other implementation

00:05:17   of this I think would wreak havoc,

00:05:18   and nobody would leave it on.

00:05:20   Especially, like you mentioned enterprise,

00:05:21   like the last thing enterprise IT managers want

00:05:25   is their computers forcing them to update their OS

00:05:29   without them doing it or approving it or testing it.

00:05:33   That's the last thing enterprise people would want.

00:05:35   So I have to imagine this is about just not letting

00:05:39   law enforcement take your computer over and overwrite your OS with an older version that

00:05:45   they have some tool that can hack and get your stuff.

00:05:47   That's probably what this is about.

00:05:49   But enterprise people do want you not to be able to boot their computers off an external

00:05:53   disk.

00:05:54   They do want you not to be able to install malware on their computers.

00:05:57   Or people who have, like, if you're running a computer lab in a college and you have kind

00:06:00   of public computers, a lot of these features appeal in that scenario of sort of protecting

00:06:04   the computer from the outside.

00:06:06   just like the final straw is like, oh, and by the way, also updates may be forced on

00:06:11   you and that is, you know, that's a bridge too far.

00:06:14   - Yeah, I don't expect that this would be used to aggressively update like on day zero.

00:06:19   I expect this would be to more aggressively force along the stragglers to the point that

00:06:24   like Marco, you're still on Sierra, not High Sierra on most of your machines, is that right?

00:06:29   - On half of my machines?

00:06:31   - How many machines do you have?

00:06:32   - Oh wait, no, I have the Mac Mini, most of my machines.

00:06:36   - I always forget about the Mac Mini,

00:06:37   'cause it's just like a headless server.

00:06:39   - Wait, the Mac Mini still exists?

00:06:40   Does it still work?

00:06:41   Actually, at this point, if you had Secure Boot,

00:06:43   it would probably refuse to start up because of its age.

00:06:46   Anyway, I bring this up to say--

00:06:48   - Maybe it would only run on a third of its performance,

00:06:50   'cause it happened to change the battery.

00:06:51   - Oh, God.

00:06:52   (laughing)

00:06:54   Can we not talk about that?

00:06:55   - Oh, we're definitely talking about that.

00:06:57   That was a huge deal seven days ago.

00:06:59   - It was a huge deal like two or three weeks ago,

00:07:01   and everyone has been begging us to talk about it,

00:07:04   and I really have no interest in it,

00:07:05   we'll talk about it. Anyway, the point is, I think at this point, you know, a couple of months on,

00:07:09   this may be the time when a secure boot thing may start to compel you, or I guess,

00:07:16   I was gonna say try, but I guess it would compel you to upgrade to High Sierra. But personally,

00:07:21   I can't imagine if I were to get an iMac Pro, or you know, whatever computers come with this in the

00:07:27   future, I don't think I would turn this from anything but full security. Like, I update not

00:07:32   day zero or day one if you will, but I update reasonably quickly and I don't think that

00:07:38   personally I would have any reason to crank this down. And it sounds like the two of you

00:07:43   guys would. Marco, is that what you're saying? That you would not want to run at full security?

00:07:46   - It depends. So I'm gonna have to do some research over the next negative three to six

00:07:52   days but it has to be something more like preventing you from like overriding the OS

00:07:59   with an old hacked version, it has to be.

00:08:01   I can't imagine it's gonna like,

00:08:04   I'm gonna wake up my computer one day

00:08:05   and it's gonna say, nope, sorry,

00:08:07   you can't run Sierra anymore.

00:08:09   Like that's, I don't think that's gonna be what they do.

00:08:12   'Cause again, that would just wreak havoc

00:08:14   with so many like big installations

00:08:16   and people's needs and everything, I can't imagine.

00:08:18   So I'm gonna give it the benefit of the doubt

00:08:20   and leave it on the default which is the full security.

00:08:22   And if I'm proven wrong in my research

00:08:25   three to six days ago, then maybe I'll change my mind.

00:08:27   (laughing)

00:08:28   I'm trying to look up, if I deleted from the show notes, the screenshot that Cable had

00:08:32   posted, but my recollection of it is that it is different than the screenshot that is

00:08:36   on the Apple support document that we'll put in the show notes, and the wording underneath

00:08:40   what full security means.

00:08:41   From Cable's screenshot, it was "Full security ensures that only the latest and most secure

00:08:47   software can be run."

00:08:49   Right?

00:08:50   It requires a network connection in software installation, right?

00:08:53   So that's the old wording.

00:08:55   Only the latest and most secure software.

00:08:56   and most secure, I mean is that just saying like the latest is always the most secure,

00:09:00   but latest is pretty unambiguous. New text on Apple's page ensures that only your current

00:09:05   OS or signed operating system software currently trusted by Apple can run. And that is very

00:09:11   different. Very, very different. You know, so only your current OS, meaning whatever

00:09:15   is currently on your system, or signed operating system software currently trusted by Apple.

00:09:19   And that's more like what Marco was talking about. Currently trusted by Apple is Apple

00:09:22   could say, "Okay, we put out a bump point release that is no longer trusted, so that

00:09:26   particular one can't run."

00:09:28   But any of these other 20 versions are all fine.

00:09:30   So maybe Apple is changing its mind.

00:09:32   I mean, I guess I would assume the one on the Apple site is the most up-to-date one,

00:09:37   and I would assume that the text changes reflect the reality of the feature.

00:09:41   But as we said, Marco will find out for us, I guess.

00:09:44   And I'd also like to reiterate what John, you had said a little while ago about any

00:09:49   sort of larger organization wanting complete and utter control over their machines.

00:09:54   At my work, which is a 500 employee company, I was put on the blessed list that I could

00:10:01   install High Sierra, but by default you are not allowed to install High Sierra.

00:10:06   And my work is actually fairly hands-off with our machines.

00:10:09   Like by default, average users do not get administrator privileges, but all developers

00:10:13   do.

00:10:14   And they're generally not too bad about giving us reasonably full access to our computers.

00:10:20   And yet, despite that, we are not allowed to install upgrades of operating systems without

00:10:27   them having blessed them and so on and so forth.

00:10:29   And so they're kind of beta testing with a group of, I don't know, 10 or 20 of us internally,

00:10:34   of which I'm part of that.

00:10:35   But a friend of mine works at a very, very large financial organization.

00:10:40   And I've heard through this friend that their computer pretty much is inoperable.

00:10:47   Their MacBook Pro is pretty much inoperable unless they are connected to the company's

00:10:52   VPN or the company's Wi-Fi.

00:10:55   That's how stodgy these sorts of larger companies, especially in financial services, can get

00:11:02   over time.

00:11:03   Is that this person's computer, they basically can't get to anything on the internet, even

00:11:08   on their home wi-fi until they've connected to Big Brother, I mean to the company's VPN

00:11:14   so that they can be monitored. I mean tracked. I mean just taken care of. It's crazy out there,

00:11:19   I tell you. Anyway, William Pierce writes in, "There's a lot of women car journalists these

00:11:24   days, but one blog that sprung to mind is at blackflag.gelopnik.com, and it's by Steph

00:11:29   Schrader and Alex King. It's a great place for racing news, solid coverage, and they've gotten

00:11:34   plenty of scoops. I have not had the chance to check this out. I've been pretty much off

00:11:38   the internet all day. I'm assuming one of the two of you did, probably, Jon?

00:11:41   Jon Streeter Yeah, this was a—but we had an Ask ATP

00:11:44   question about, you know, car magazines for someone's kid, and I went into how a lot of the

00:11:49   car magazines are written assuming that everyone who's reading it is a dude, and, you know, and

00:11:58   how it's not really a great thing to introduce young readers to if you want them to avoid

00:12:05   perpetuating, you know, sort of behavior that excludes people, whatever. But the question

00:12:12   was specifically about magazines, and I'm assuming the person meant paper magazines,

00:12:16   because when I see magazines, that's what I think. But William brings up a good point

00:12:20   if you want to look for, you know, a more modern inclusive take on whatever your hobby

00:12:27   maybe, online is probably the place to do it.

00:12:29   And I do read some car sites, I watch more YouTube videos than I read car sites, but

00:12:32   I certainly go to Jalopnik a lot, mostly led there by other people that I follow linking

00:12:38   to cool car stories on Jalopnik.

00:12:40   And so yeah, they have blogs and journalists, and if you're looking for—it depends on

00:12:46   what kind of news you're looking for.

00:12:48   I looked at this thing and it's a lot of racing news and I'm really not into racing,

00:12:51   But that's probably a better bet for finding new voices, as they say in the automotive

00:12:57   of Nudist Industry.

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00:14:56   - Let's do some Ask ATP.

00:14:59   Scott Lougheed writes in,

00:15:02   "What do you think the odds are

00:15:04   "of attention detection on Apple Watch?

00:15:05   "It could really refine raise to wake.

00:15:07   "Display remains on as long as you're looking at it,

00:15:09   "turns on with attention, et cetera."

00:15:10   So, quick recap on the iPhone, don't call it X.

00:15:14   There is a feature by which,

00:15:16   If it realizes that you're not actively looking at the phone because it's using the front-facing

00:15:20   like camera array, if you're not looking at the phone it will dim itself reasonably quickly,

00:15:26   and if it's dimmed but still on, it will actually turn itself to full brightness again once

00:15:32   it realizes you've looked at it again.

00:15:34   And it's actually extremely cool.

00:15:36   And so Scott's thought was, "Hey, could we use that same tech in the Apple Watch?"

00:15:39   So as you're looking at the Apple Watch, then it will continue to be full brightness, it

00:15:45   it won't ever turn itself off until it knows that you're no longer looking at it,

00:15:49   in which case obviously it can turn itself back down or off or etc.

00:15:53   To my eyes, I do think that this will, on an infinite time scale,

00:15:57   be a thing, but I don't see it happening anytime soon because even though

00:16:01   they've taken what was effectively a Microsoft Kinect and shrank it down to be in the

00:16:05   notch in the iPhone X, I don't see it becoming small enough to be on the Apple Watch

00:16:09   anytime soon, much less having the battery power

00:16:13   power to power it, but that's just me.

00:16:15   Marco, what do you think?

00:16:17   - Yeah, I don't think it makes a lot of sense, honestly,

00:16:19   because for all the reasons you said,

00:16:21   I can't imagine that it would have the battery power

00:16:23   to be constantly scanning to see

00:16:25   if you're looking at it or not,

00:16:27   and also for the feature of things like

00:16:30   keeping the screen on for a while,

00:16:32   if you are looking at it, again,

00:16:35   it doesn't seem like it's worth the power,

00:16:36   it doesn't seem like they have the physical space

00:16:38   to put the sensors on the front of it.

00:16:40   I don't think they intend for you to be looking at the watch

00:16:43   without touching it for very long anyway.

00:16:46   - All right, Jon, any other thoughts?

00:16:49   - If they had the battery power to do the face detection,

00:16:53   to power all the cameras and have them do all the things,

00:16:56   they should spend that battery power

00:16:58   on having a watch face that never turns off.

00:16:59   I know it's probably different amounts,

00:17:01   but like that's the goal.

00:17:02   I think that's a better goal,

00:17:03   like to basically get to the point

00:17:04   where the watch face never turns off using whatever,

00:17:07   better technology, better screens, whatever they have to do.

00:17:10   That's what you want.

00:17:11   And so this in-between thing where you burn a lot of battery energy trying to be super

00:17:14   smart about when you turn the screen on and off seems like a bad trade-off to me.

00:17:19   Moving on, Max Velasco-Nott writes in, "I'm in the market for RAID 0 external SSD storage.

00:17:25   I'm wondering what you use and what you'd recommend.

00:17:28   I'm on a Thunderbolt 2 machine, but I'm open to a backwards compatible Thunderbolt 3 drive

00:17:31   if you happen to be using one.

00:17:33   Thank you for any advice.

00:17:34   I have precisely zero input on this, so Marco, take it away."

00:17:39   As mentioned, seven days ago, Tif's iMac has had a four

00:17:44   drive RAID 0 SSD Thunderbolt 2 enclosure

00:17:48   for the last few years.

00:17:49   So I have direct experience with these.

00:17:52   They're fine, they're nothing special.

00:17:54   They tend to come with really loud, crappy fans.

00:17:57   I replaced the fan in hers with a much quieter

00:17:59   Noctua Superquiet fan, and that was a very, very good

00:18:03   upgrade to do to it.

00:18:04   That didn't seem to reduce the life of anything at all

00:18:07   because it's really just cooling the very, very hot

00:18:10   Thunderbolt chip that's inside.

00:18:11   It's not really, you know, the SSDs don't need much

00:18:13   cooling themselves, so.

00:18:14   It's fine, we've never had any problems with it,

00:18:16   like, you know, disconnecting or failing

00:18:18   or anything like that, but they are,

00:18:21   it is a fairly expensive solution, a much better solution.

00:18:26   If, you know, I don't know what Max's needs are here,

00:18:29   but if you can all avoid having an external RAID enclosure,

00:18:34   you'll be better off for it if you can either just

00:18:36   like one big disk of some sort,

00:18:38   or if you can use network storage,

00:18:41   like a NAS or something like that,

00:18:43   that's generally better.

00:18:45   It's just less hassle and less crap

00:18:48   and less hardware to break and maintain.

00:18:51   But if you still wanna do this,

00:18:53   the enclosure we got was from OWC, maxsales.com.

00:18:57   I think it was a few hundred dollars maybe,

00:18:59   just for the enclosure.

00:19:01   Anything involving multiple disk enclosures

00:19:04   with a Thunderbolt interface is not going to be cheap.

00:19:06   Another option that you have is to use

00:19:09   the built-in software RAID in Mac OS.

00:19:12   I don't think that applies to APFS yet,

00:19:14   but is that right, John, do you know?

00:19:16   - What, do you wanna know if you can do

00:19:17   software RAID at all with APFS?

00:19:18   - Yeah.

00:19:19   - I don't remember.

00:19:20   I remember, I have the same vague memory as you do

00:19:23   that there was a bunch of limitations.

00:19:25   I think they might have taken it away with APFS,

00:19:27   but I'm not sure.

00:19:28   - Yeah, anyway, so if you can do software RAID still

00:19:31   with whatever your file system needs are,

00:19:33   Another option you have, if the performance of this

00:19:35   won't be too bad, is to just get a bunch of really

00:19:38   inexpensive USB 3 enclosures.

00:19:40   'Cause you can get a USB 3 SSD enclosure for like 15 bucks.

00:19:44   I have a few of these from my own computer.

00:19:47   - Bus powered, that's the important part, bus powered.

00:19:49   - Yes, and bus powered, right.

00:19:50   And because SSDs don't need additional power,

00:19:52   so that way you avoid having not only

00:19:55   additional cable clutter, but also if you can eliminate

00:19:58   some device's own power supply from your setup,

00:20:02   you eliminate a major source of failure and weirdness.

00:20:04   Because those little power bricks

00:20:06   that come with everything are terrible.

00:20:08   Like they just aren't very reliable,

00:20:09   they fail all the time,

00:20:11   not to mention that they're big and bulky and ugly.

00:20:13   So anything that can be bus powered

00:20:14   is generally a gain for you here.

00:20:16   And because you're powering SSDs

00:20:18   and not big spinning disks,

00:20:20   you should be able to get away with that.

00:20:21   So if you can get away with just a handful

00:20:23   of cheap USB enclosures,

00:20:25   if that will work for your performance and throughput needs,

00:20:28   that will be way cheaper

00:20:30   and just a simpler setup in general.

00:20:33   But again, it all depends on what you need.

00:20:34   If you do still truly need an external RAID 0 enclosure,

00:20:39   I've had totally fine luck with the OWC,

00:20:42   I think it's called the Thunder Bay Mini,

00:20:44   or something like that.

00:20:44   It's the one that holds,

00:20:45   specifically for two and a half inch drives,

00:20:47   it holds four of them.

00:20:49   It's Thunderbolt from OWC,

00:20:51   and it has a very loud fan

00:20:52   until you put a Noctua fan in there.

00:20:55   - Joshua Rogers writes,

00:20:56   "Do any of you use any soundproofing

00:20:58   "or acoustic material in the room

00:21:00   that you podcast in to help with audio recording quality.

00:21:03   I will start.

00:21:04   I used to, before I moved rooms on account of our forthcoming kid, I used to use literally

00:21:11   a fleece blanket that I push pinned into the wall behind my iMac, and that was enough sound

00:21:17   deadening to get the job done.

00:21:19   Marco had told me very early on that I was echoing quite a bit, and this was probably

00:21:23   during the neutral time, in fact.

00:21:25   And something in like 2013 or thereabouts, I push pinned this blanket to the wall, and

00:21:31   it stayed up for about four years until we moved rooms.

00:21:35   Now we have some sort of soundproofing something or other that I think, Marco, you might have

00:21:39   recommended that I will put a link in the show notes.

00:21:41   Soundtracks Pro?

00:21:42   Maybe.

00:21:43   I'll have to look through my Amazon order history.

00:21:44   If it has the cool like swirly pattern, it's Soundtracks Pro.

00:21:47   No, definitely not.

00:21:48   I probably got something considerably cheaper knowing me.

00:21:51   So I will put links to both of these things into the show notes.

00:21:56   And basically I have a panel of nine of these.

00:22:02   So let me back up a half step.

00:22:03   So my iMac and my desk is in between two windows.

00:22:08   Above the iMac is a panel of nine, I don't know, foot long by foot wide sound deadening

00:22:15   things.

00:22:16   And so there's basically the wall behind my iMac is all sound deadening material.

00:22:21   There's nothing on the opposite wall because it's far enough away.

00:22:24   Not that this room is that big, but it's far enough away that I don't think it really matters.

00:22:28   I wanted to link to the thumbtacks that you use that kept a fleece blanket on your wall

00:22:32   for four years because I'm just thinking of the idea of I've got a fleece blanket that

00:22:35   I want to hold on the wall.

00:22:37   You know what I'll use?

00:22:38   I'll use thumbtacks, or as Casey would say, push pins.

00:22:39   I'll use thumbtacks to put it on the wall.

00:22:41   I would think within five minutes that thing would fall down.

00:22:44   Did you use a hundred of them?

00:22:45   Or are these the world's best thumbtacks?

00:22:47   No, it was not a terribly heavy nor thick fleece blanket.

00:22:52   I'm sure I have a picture somewhere of it, but I don't know if I could dig it up easily.

00:22:56   But it was not a very heavy blanket by any means.

00:22:59   It was fairly thin.

00:23:00   Do you feel like it made a difference?

00:23:02   Well, Marco—I mean this in the most respectful way possible—Marco complained and moaned

00:23:06   about my echoes, and then I put that up, and then he stopped complaining and moaning about

00:23:10   my echoes.

00:23:11   So either he figured out a way around it, or it was better.

00:23:14   - That's how I show my approval.

00:23:15   - Yeah, exactly.

00:23:17   When Marco stops complaining, you know he's happy.

00:23:20   But anyway, Marco, tell me again what you have,

00:23:22   you have Soundtrax, Soundtrax?

00:23:24   - Soundtrax, T-R-A-X Pro.

00:23:27   You can get them on Amazon.

00:23:28   You get a decent-sized pack for like 40 or 50 bucks

00:23:32   with I think eight one-by-four-foot sections,

00:23:35   something like that.

00:23:37   They also make larger ones.

00:23:38   If you wanna do a big wall, you can get larger panels

00:23:40   that are about two by five, or two by four feet.

00:23:44   I have a few of those behind my computer.

00:23:47   Yeah, so this is the kind of thing,

00:23:49   so it does help to treat the room with soft things

00:23:52   to make you sound better.

00:23:54   A lot of times people go a little overboard with it

00:23:56   and they just kind of keep going

00:23:57   'cause they think they need it or it just looks cool.

00:24:00   It makes you look like a really professional podcaster

00:24:02   to have sound editing material in your entire office,

00:24:05   but usually you don't need as much of it as people use.

00:24:10   And also, there's lots of alternatives

00:24:12   that will work just as well.

00:24:14   Your hanging a blanket on the wall was totally fine,

00:24:17   because what you basically need is for the room

00:24:20   to be filled with as many soft things as possible

00:24:23   that can avoid echoes.

00:24:25   That's what you're trying to avoid here, is echo.

00:24:27   You're not trying to insulate, like sound insulation,

00:24:30   to make the room soundproof so that people

00:24:33   outside the room can't hear you

00:24:35   and that outside sounds can't get in.

00:24:36   That's not what this is.

00:24:38   that's a different thing, and you don't do that for 50 bucks.

00:24:42   All we're doing here is trying to reduce the echoes

00:24:46   of sound bouncing around hard surfaces of the room.

00:24:49   And so some places just don't need this.

00:24:52   One of the reasons why, like sometimes we joke

00:24:53   when podcasters have to record in our closets

00:24:56   for some reason, it sounds great,

00:24:58   because closets are small spaces filled with soft clothing.

00:25:02   So there's no echoes that can be had.

00:25:05   If you think about the opposite,

00:25:07   the worst place you could record would be in a bathroom,

00:25:10   with a hard floor and tile walls everywhere.

00:25:13   Especially if you ever moved out of an apartment,

00:25:16   and you've already packed up the shower curtain

00:25:19   and all your towels from the bathroom

00:25:20   so it's just totally empty,

00:25:21   and you notice how incredibly echoey it is

00:25:23   with no soft things in there.

00:25:26   So we're going for the opposite of that.

00:25:28   You generally just want soft things in the room.

00:25:31   That doesn't have to be sound editing material.

00:25:33   A rug helps tremendously.

00:25:36   and just having blankets around.

00:25:38   Like if you have a giant open hard floor,

00:25:42   put a blanket or a rug on it while you record.

00:25:45   But the best thing you can do is,

00:25:47   as Casey mentioned with the blanket,

00:25:49   the best place to put something soft

00:25:51   is on whatever wall or whatever else

00:25:54   is behind the microphone.

00:25:55   Because if you think about how you talk

00:25:57   towards a microphone, the first place

00:25:59   that you're gonna get those echoes

00:26:01   is they're gonna be bouncing off the wall behind the mic.

00:26:04   Either your sound's gonna go past the mic,

00:26:05   bounce off the wall behind it,

00:26:06   and then get fed back into the mic as an echo

00:26:09   from the back or from the sides or whatever else.

00:26:11   Anything you can do to minimize sound echoing

00:26:14   from right behind the mic,

00:26:16   you will see a large result from that.

00:26:18   It can be sound-absorbed material.

00:26:20   If you're looking for something,

00:26:22   you know, more like a permanent kind of setup

00:26:24   that you can hang up and just leave there for years

00:26:26   and be done with it,

00:26:27   yeah, go for some kind of acoustic foam.

00:26:29   And honestly, it doesn't really matter

00:26:30   which acoustic foam you get.

00:26:31   They're not very different.

00:26:32   All you're looking for is like soft, squishy material

00:26:35   to absorb the echoes.

00:26:36   I like the Soundtracks Pro because it looks cool,

00:26:38   it has this nice little like swirly kind of hexagon-like

00:26:40   pattern, so that's kind of fun, but it doesn't really

00:26:43   matter, you can get pretty much anything at pretty much

00:26:45   any price and it'll work about the same.

00:26:47   A second thing that you should consider if this is a problem

00:26:49   for you, consider using a different microphone.

00:26:53   A lot of microphones that come highly recommended on like

00:26:57   gear guides and stuff and how to podcast and even come

00:27:00   recommended from podcasters who just don't have a lot of

00:27:02   experience with other microphones.

00:27:04   A lot of them are inexpensive, large diaphragm

00:27:08   cardioid condensers.

00:27:10   This includes things like the Blue Yeti

00:27:12   and a whole lot of entry level microphones.

00:27:14   Basically, if it's a condenser and you spent

00:27:17   less than 200 bucks for it, it's probably one of these.

00:27:20   The problem with these, they do sound very nice and crisp

00:27:23   and they pick up a lot of detail in your voice,

00:27:25   but they also pick up like if a pin drops in the room,

00:27:28   like they'll pick up any background noise.

00:27:31   And as a result, they also very, very easily

00:27:33   pick up echo from the walls.

00:27:36   If you just use a mic with a different pick up pattern,

00:27:39   some people say you have to use a dynamic mic,

00:27:41   this is not actually the case,

00:27:42   you have to use a super cardioid mic.

00:27:43   That's what you actually want.

00:27:45   It can be a condenser or dynamic,

00:27:46   it should be super cardioid or hyper cardioid.

00:27:49   What you're looking at, and I did a whole review,

00:27:51   you can listen to audio samples,

00:27:53   what you're looking at basically is the Shure Beta 87A.

00:27:57   That's what you're looking at.

00:27:58   It is about 250 bucks, it's an XLR mic, not a USB mic.

00:28:02   I don't know of any USB supercardioid podcast microphones.

00:28:07   If anyone knows of any, please let me know.

00:28:09   But what this does, the supercardioid pickup pattern,

00:28:12   it basically tightens and narrows the area

00:28:17   from which it picks up sound.

00:28:18   So it will pick up a lot less sound

00:28:21   coming from different directions

00:28:23   and coming from further away from the mic,

00:28:26   which in turn will kind of inherently

00:28:28   reduce the amount of echo it picks up.

00:28:30   It's also really nice that it'll reduce

00:28:31   amount of background noise it picks up.

00:28:32   Like if somebody breaks a plate in the next room over,

00:28:35   like you'll hear a much quieter version of it

00:28:38   than you would on a different pickup pattern.

00:28:40   Because the sound drops off further

00:28:42   the more you go away from the mic.

00:28:44   So anything you can do to narrow that pickup pattern,

00:28:48   that will serve you very well in the mic.

00:28:50   And then you won't need to do as much babying of the room.

00:28:54   - Yeah, you know, it's really weird.

00:28:57   I was using a Rode Podcaster for, I don't know,

00:29:00   something like the first year that I was doing this with you two fine gentlemen

00:29:03   and then I am now using what do I have I don't have the 87 I have 58 a is that

00:29:08   right yes remember you should switch to the 87 a by the way yeah I guess it's

00:29:13   you sound you sound good enough that I don't bother you about it that's the

00:29:18   Marco seal of approval it really is it really is tremendous the difference

00:29:23   because right now you know my my mouth is within an inch of the pop filter not

00:29:29   the pop filter, but the foam on the edge of the microphone. And if I were to turn my mouth

00:29:33   and maybe do something like 90 degrees the other direction, it is tremendous the difference

00:29:39   that that makes. And if I go 180 degrees the other direction, you can barely even hear

00:29:45   me. It's really crazy what a supercardioid, supercardioid, yeah. And that's what you're

00:29:51   using. Yeah, the Beta 58A is a supercardioid dynamic mic. It is very good for the price.

00:29:58   It's a little bit like boomy and fat

00:30:01   in like the mid-base frequency area.

00:30:03   - Yeah it is, I mean, what?

00:30:05   (laughing)

00:30:07   - Yeah, but for the price it's pretty good.

00:30:10   But I do recommend it, you know,

00:30:11   if you have a setup that can take an XLR mic

00:30:15   and you can spend whatever that is,

00:30:17   like 160 bucks for that,

00:30:19   save up another 80 bucks and get the 87A instead,

00:30:21   it's better.

00:30:22   - Yeah, this is 160, you're right,

00:30:24   and if you say the 87A is 60 more, then so be it.

00:30:27   - John, what is your situation with regard to

00:30:30   sound deadening material?

00:30:32   - John does not count.

00:30:33   (laughing)

00:30:34   John has an inexpensive large diaphragm condenser microphone.

00:30:37   - Not that expensive, it was like 315 bucks or something,

00:30:40   wasn't it?

00:30:41   - No, well, you probably,

00:30:43   (laughing)

00:30:44   I think the most it ever cost was 250, but still.

00:30:47   Yeah, you have the Shure PG42 USB.

00:30:50   It sounds incredible, it sounds very, very good,

00:30:55   but it is an incredibly picky microphone for room dynamics

00:30:59   because it's, what I mentioned earlier,

00:31:01   it's the kind that picks up like a needle dropping,

00:31:02   like it picks up anything.

00:31:04   However, all the rules of this microphone

00:31:08   cease to apply in John Syracuse's office

00:31:11   and I don't know why and I've never wanted to tell him

00:31:14   to change anything because for some reason

00:31:17   that I cannot fathom or figure out,

00:31:19   he sounds perfect all the time.

00:31:21   He does not have any echo, there's never any noise

00:31:24   hits on the track, all the problems that you would usually

00:31:27   get with this type of condenser.

00:31:29   And I bought that exact microphone to try in my mega review

00:31:33   and it was incredibly picky for me.

00:31:35   But for some reason, it's perfect for Jon,

00:31:38   so I don't, like the rules do not apply in Jon's office.

00:31:42   - Well, some rules do.

00:31:43   I mean, so, from the sound deadening material,

00:31:46   for getting to this question, the main reason

00:31:49   I don't have sound deadening material is,

00:31:51   back when we were all buying sound foam and stuff, of course Marco bought this really

00:31:56   one that he was just telling you about, and I went, I'm like, oh, I should get that same

00:31:58   swirly stuff Marco got, and I went to the web page where they sell it, and it was $60,

00:32:02   and my interpretation was, it's $60 for one rectangle of the foamy stuff. And then I looked

00:32:08   at how much, how many rectangles Marco has on his balls, and I'm like, well, Marco, you

00:32:12   know, all right, fine, but no way in hell I'm spending $60 times, you know, 12 to put

00:32:21   foam on my wall and I'm like, "This is ridiculous." And I did some researching for cheaper foam,

00:32:24   but I was just like, "Yeah, I'm just not going to do it." So anyway, now that I know that

00:32:29   it is not $60 for one square, it's $60 for what? How many is it? I forget, eight or something?

00:32:33   - I think six or twelve. It's enough. The $60 pack of the one by two sheets, whatever

00:32:39   that is, that's enough for pretty much anybody to make their setup sound great.

00:32:43   - Yeah, so that sounds more reasonable, although it really annoys me that the pattern doesn't

00:32:47   line up if you buy all the squares. That really annoys me.

00:32:49   - Yeah, and so I have some of the big ones that I mentioned.

00:32:52   It doesn't line up on them either,

00:32:54   but at least with the big ones you have fewer seams.

00:32:56   - Yeah, so anyway, but I still don't have the phone.

00:32:58   And also I wanna ask Marco how he attached it to his wall

00:33:01   and he's like, "I permanently stuck it on there

00:33:02   "and if I ever wanna remove it, I have to repaint the wall."

00:33:04   And I was like, "Eh."

00:33:05   - Yeah, there's like adhesive squares

00:33:08   that they recommend that you use with it

00:33:09   and I got those.

00:33:10   So each one of them is stuck on with something like six,

00:33:14   like little two by one inch adhesive square things,

00:33:17   like double sided tape kind of things.

00:33:19   And yeah, I'm pretty sure,

00:33:20   and they haven't fallen off at all, which is great,

00:33:22   but I'm pretty sure that's a pretty permanent installation.

00:33:25   - That's it for the wall.

00:33:26   You should've used Casey's thumbtacks.

00:33:28   - Well, it's funny you bring that up.

00:33:31   We tried to use command strips on the foam that we have

00:33:34   and they have all fallen over time.

00:33:37   But I think if memory serves,

00:33:39   I did get the adhesive squares that Marco recommended,

00:33:44   and then we put those on the back of the foam

00:33:47   and then command stripped those.

00:33:49   Does that make sense?

00:33:50   So it's foam, adhesive squares, command strips,

00:33:54   and that actually seems to be holding pretty well so far.

00:33:57   - That's a good idea.

00:33:57   You can put it right over the thumbtackles if you have them.

00:34:00   But anyway, as for my room, early on in this series,

00:34:05   someone, I forget who it was, Marco, do you remember

00:34:07   which one of the helpful audio people

00:34:08   I'm about to talk about?

00:34:09   - I believe it was Marcus DePaulo.

00:34:11   - Yes, there you go, that's probably it.

00:34:14   Sent us a bunch of advice about what we're doing

00:34:15   and what he had to say about my mic

00:34:16   was that he heard a lot of echo and he surmised that I had my monitor really close to my microphone

00:34:22   and he was right.

00:34:23   And so the only thing I've done to make this room better for audio when I'm podcasting

00:34:28   is I move my monitor farther away from my microphone or my microphone farther away from

00:34:31   my monitor.

00:34:33   I still think the echo is there, it's just the delay is slightly different.

00:34:38   The thing I think that's good about this room is like to my right is a giant bookshelf and

00:34:44   bookshelves are surprisingly good baffles for sound because of all the little knobbly

00:34:47   books, you know, and the little gaps between them and behind them and even my bookshelves

00:34:52   where every spine is meticulously lined up.

00:34:55   It helps if the spines are uneven.

00:34:58   I bet it works even better.

00:34:59   This room is carpeted, which also helps.

00:35:02   And the windows do have blinds on them, which are also kind of knobbly.

00:35:07   But yeah, it's not that – and the gain is really low on my mic.

00:35:10   And I have like tons of, I have a double pop filter and a foam shield on it.

00:35:14   So I don't know, I'm dreading changing my setup, but I think I will eventually when

00:35:18   I get my new computer in 20 mumble mumble.

00:35:21   I'm going to have to because, anyway.

00:35:24   The new one has USB.

00:35:26   Marco's recommended mic and Marco's recommended little hot box with knobs for my brand new

00:35:33   computer and then I'll just, you know, we'll see.

00:35:37   That's what I call those like,

00:35:39   you can spend $750 for a hotbox with knobs.

00:35:41   - Yeah, it's actually up to like $900 now.

00:35:43   The one I like is the USB Pre 2 from Sound Devices.

00:35:46   So this is the box that converts USB to microphones.

00:35:49   I've tried a lot of these things.

00:35:50   There's lots of them that are totally fine

00:35:52   for like $150 bucks.

00:35:54   But I wanted something that was better than totally fine.

00:35:57   I wanted something that was great.

00:35:58   And Sound Devices USB Pre 2 is great.

00:36:02   It's the kind of thing that if you've ever had a problem

00:36:04   or bad performance with one of the $150 ones

00:36:07   and you just get fed up and you're like,

00:36:08   "Can I just throw money at this problem to make it go away?"

00:36:10   This is the answer to that question.

00:36:12   And the reason you should get it, Jon,

00:36:14   is that it has amazing knobs.

00:36:17   Like, all the other ones have cheap, crappy--

00:36:19   - But I'm not supposed to ever touch the knobs.

00:36:21   - No, well, you gotta touch them a couple times

00:36:23   to set it up, and trust me--

00:36:24   - Once and then never move them again.

00:36:25   - You feel any other microphone interface's knob,

00:36:28   and you're gonna be like, "Oh, God,

00:36:29   "my toaster's better than this."

00:36:30   You try these knobs and you're like,

00:36:31   "Oh, my God, I want these knobs on everything I own."

00:36:34   They're so much better.

00:36:35   - Oh, my God, I love you guys.

00:36:36   Anyway, I may eventually get something new,

00:36:39   but we'll see.

00:36:40   But that's it, no foam.

00:36:41   - I love you guys so much.

00:36:43   (laughing)

00:36:45   What is this show about?

00:36:46   - Knob feel, that's what this show is about.

00:36:48   (laughing)

00:36:49   (upbeat music)

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00:38:38   (upbeat music)

00:38:41   - So for the last few weeks,

00:38:43   we've had a reasonably significant amount of people tell us

00:38:48   in various states of anger that we need to take Apple to task

00:38:53   about how iPhones are throttling CPU performance

00:38:57   when the batteries get old and how this is horse crap

00:39:01   We really need to beat Apple up because apparently they think that people who matter listen to the show and guess what they don't but anyway

00:39:07   They do point is people were really upset about this and this has been going on for probably about a month now

00:39:14   Or near abouts and I never found this to be a particularly interesting

00:39:21   Thing to talk about a particularly particularly interesting topic because I mean hey guess what as your phones get old

00:39:28   they're gonna get slow. That, I mean, like, I understand that that probably shouldn't happen, that a CPU is a CPU is a CPU,

00:39:35   but, I mean, hey, as stuff gets older, it gets worse. As I get older, I get worse.

00:39:40   And so it stands to reason as other things get older,

00:39:43   maybe they will get worse too. But there's been a whole bunch of activity about this not today, but seven days ago exactly,

00:39:51   wherein we actually got some information from Apple.

00:39:54   So I'm going to try to do my chief summarizer in chief, and you guys jump in and/or correct

00:40:01   me after the fact.

00:40:02   And what it sounds like is--and I experienced this with my 6 or maybe it was my 6s--as my

00:40:09   6 or 6s got older, occasionally it would go from something like 20 or 30% charge, as reported

00:40:16   by the iPhone, to dead.

00:40:18   It just turned itself off.

00:40:20   And this was deeply infuriating, because here it is, I'm trying to perform some sort of

00:40:25   task and my battery says that it's at something like a third charge.

00:40:28   I don't use battery percentage, or I didn't use battery percentage before the iPhone X

00:40:33   because I'm not a monster.

00:40:35   And so anyway, I just look at the—

00:40:37   You're going to make a lot of friends with this segment.

00:40:38   Oh, I know.

00:40:39   I know.

00:40:40   But regardless—well, I already made friends with my Fahrenheit discussion, so you know

00:40:43   what?

00:40:44   Why not?

00:40:45   Sorry, I'm not sorry.

00:40:46   The point is that, you know, I look at the little icon and it says it's about a third full.

00:40:51   I go to perform some sort of operation, suddenly the phone turns off.

00:40:55   So then I turn it back on, suddenly it's back at a third battery.

00:40:59   And that seems really, really weird.

00:41:02   Well, what it sounds like was happening was that when the CPU or other components were really, really asked to do a lot,

00:41:10   it would cause enough draw on the battery that the battery would end up kind of just not failing,

00:41:15   but just going kaput. And so the phone would turn off and that would be that. And so what

00:41:19   Apple's decided to do is as the battery gets older and as they realize that the battery can't really

00:41:23   handle this anymore, they will start throttling the CPU. And so they'll not let the CPU operate

00:41:30   at 100% speed in order to prevent these sorts of things from happening. Which to my eyes is a

00:41:37   perfectly reasonable engineering solution to a problem. And this problem is that batteries,

00:41:42   as they get older, they get crummier. That's the way batteries work. It may not be the way CPUs work,

00:41:48   but it is the way batteries work. And so, to my eyes, that's perfectly fine. I don't see why

00:41:56   everyone has gotten up in arms about this. But, oh man, a lot of people are really angry about this.

00:42:03   And I think part of that is probably because as you upgrade to the latest versions of iOS,

00:42:08   And as you have operating systems that are more and more taxing on the CPU, it ends up

00:42:14   causing a system-wide slowdown.

00:42:17   So not having experienced that, because I've gone on the complete douchebag, I get a new

00:42:25   iPhone every year train, but I was not always on this train.

00:42:31   And I do remember times when my older phones got a little bit slow over time.

00:42:38   And I think the moral of the story is these devices, or certainly the latest versions

00:42:43   of iOS, aren't really designed to use two-plus-year-old phones, maybe three- or four-year-old phones.

00:42:50   And maybe the thing that we should all be up in arms about is why is iOS 11 being supported

00:42:55   all the way back to the iPhone 4 or whatever?

00:42:57   That's probably not accurate, but just for the sake of conversation.

00:43:00   And that's, to me, the thing that maybe is a little bit more controversial.

00:43:06   But the fact that the CPU is being slowed down, like, "Hey, this is making it so your

00:43:10   phone doesn't spontaneously die.

00:43:12   But okay, fine.

00:43:13   If you prefer that, go ahead.

00:43:15   Maybe that's what we should do."

00:43:16   And I think it was either Panzareno or Gruber that said, I think it was Panzareno that said,

00:43:22   "Hey, the issue here is really communication, that Apple never told anyone why this was

00:43:26   happening."

00:43:27   And if they just disclosed, "Hey, we've realized that these spikes in battery draw have caused

00:43:33   the batteries to temporarily fail" — fail probably isn't the right word, but you know,

00:43:37   give up — "that's why we've throttled your CPUs, is to prevent that problem."

00:43:42   And if they had said that up front, then I think this wouldn't be an issue.

00:43:46   But they didn't, and so here we are.

00:43:48   So that is not a very succinct summary, but that is the summary nevertheless, and I apologize.

00:43:54   But Marco, tell me about this.

00:43:56   What do you think?

00:43:58   - So this is, it seemed like this is a very well-intentioned

00:44:02   solution to a very real problem.

00:44:05   - I agree.

00:44:06   - But because of the context that is complicated

00:44:10   and hard to get rid of, which I'll get to in a second,

00:44:12   so because of the context and because of the execution

00:44:16   details of this, I think it's a really big problem for them.

00:44:19   So the context is probably the most important part here

00:44:23   that we've known anybody who is an Apple fan

00:44:27   or Apple defender in any way ever,

00:44:29   and Apple frequently needs defense,

00:44:31   'cause people out there have a lot of horrible misconception

00:44:33   about Apple, and they have forever, right?

00:44:37   And I think this is part of why Apple fans

00:44:38   are so defensive so much at the time,

00:44:40   because there's so much bad information out there

00:44:42   about Apple, and people are always having to

00:44:45   fight it or correct it.

00:44:46   And so one of the things that a large portion

00:44:51   the population who buys iPhones believes

00:44:55   is that Apple intentionally makes their phones slower

00:44:59   with every new software update to make them buy new phones.

00:45:03   And there is some truth in this,

00:45:06   not in the intentionality of it,

00:45:07   but there is some truth that new OSs do usually run slower

00:45:11   on old hardware than the ones that they shipped with.

00:45:14   I don't think Apple's doing any of that intentionally.

00:45:16   I think as John Gruber wrote today,

00:45:19   I think Apple employees would just quit

00:45:22   before they would do something as crazy

00:45:24   and fraudulent and evil as that.

00:45:26   But the fact is the new OSes do usually run worse

00:45:29   on the old hardware than what shipped with them.

00:45:31   And that's just because they're new OSes.

00:45:34   There's new animations and higher memory usage

00:45:37   and more stuff happening in the background

00:45:40   because it seems like these are designed

00:45:43   to run really well on the current generation

00:45:45   and making them run on previous generations is,

00:45:49   it doesn't seem like it's a very high priority

00:45:52   to make that smooth or awesome.

00:45:53   And maybe, honestly, I don't know, maybe it is,

00:45:56   maybe there's tons of people working on that,

00:45:57   but the results that people see usually

00:46:00   is that when they update their two-year-old phone

00:46:03   to the newest OS that comes out every fall,

00:46:06   it's slower and it gets worse battery life.

00:46:09   Now, there's lots of complicating factors to this

00:46:13   that make this partially true, partially not true,

00:46:17   partially the inevitable behavior of lithium ion batteries over time, the progress of software

00:46:23   over time. But the fact is there is this very widespread belief that this is planned obsolescence,

00:46:30   that Apple is forcing people's phones to be slower over time so that people go out and

00:46:35   buy new phones. So that is the context in which this story now comes out. Now, Apple

00:46:41   has been doing this for almost a year, and even, it depends, we're going to link to an

00:46:46   an article he wrote last February,

00:46:49   like almost a year ago, saying like,

00:46:51   Apple said this about this new update

00:46:53   and here's what it does.

00:46:55   Because there was a big problem back then

00:46:56   about iPhone 6 and 6S, I believe,

00:46:58   as you mentioned, doing like the whole

00:47:00   unexpected shutdown thing,

00:47:02   when they were getting a little bit old.

00:47:03   What has come out over the last few days,

00:47:05   as you mentioned, there was a Reddit post

00:47:08   that kicked it all off,

00:47:09   we'll link to it in the show notes,

00:47:10   where somebody basically said that

00:47:12   he ran Geekbench, which is a popular benchmark,

00:47:15   before getting his battery replaced.

00:47:17   And then he got his battery replaced by Apple

00:47:19   and ran Geekbench again, and that his CPU performance

00:47:24   before the battery replacement was like half

00:47:26   of what it was after.

00:47:28   So he made this Reddit post saying like,

00:47:30   "Hey, it looks like Apple is throttling CPU performance

00:47:33   "when your battery is old."

00:47:35   And it took a while before, like everyone was getting

00:47:37   all up in arms for a few days, and then about nine days ago,

00:47:43   John Pool, you guys name it Geekbench?

00:47:45   I believe it's John Pool.

00:47:47   The developer of Geekbench went through all the data

00:47:49   and found like trends and peaks of like all the iPhones,

00:47:54   6s and 6s, Ss and 7s that are running Geekbench

00:47:57   before and after the software update

00:47:59   that added this behavior.

00:48:02   And there are different performances like in the aggregate.

00:48:06   And there were very, very clear peaks.

00:48:09   Like before the update, there was a clear peak

00:48:11   where it's supposed to be.

00:48:12   And then after the update, there was still that main peak

00:48:15   where it's supposed to be, but then there were like

00:48:17   three other peaks at lower levels at about even intervals.

00:48:22   Like it's like, it's subtracting like 20%, 20%, 20%.

00:48:26   There were clear peaks there that like, okay,

00:48:27   there's clearly a lot of phones that are benchmarking

00:48:30   in these levels here.

00:48:32   And that came out about nine days ago,

00:48:36   and then exactly seven days ago, Apple issued

00:48:39   a press statement basically saying,

00:48:40   "Look, here's what we do.

00:48:41   "This is to combat lithium-ion battery problems over time

00:48:45   "when they get older and they can't maintain

00:48:47   "like the highest peak output

00:48:49   "when the CPU is drawing the most energy.

00:48:51   "And so we throttle down those peaks only when necessary

00:48:55   "to keep the phone running basically

00:48:57   "to prevent it from shutting down."

00:49:00   So they basically just did and then confirmed

00:49:04   that they did something that slows down your phone

00:49:07   when it gets older.

00:49:09   And I know they had, like I'm sure they had

00:49:11   the best of intentions.

00:49:12   It's clear from their statement, you know, I believe them,

00:49:15   I believe this is why they did it,

00:49:17   I don't think they're trying to push new phones even harder,

00:49:19   I think the iPhones sell themselves,

00:49:21   like I don't think they need to break your old phone

00:49:24   to sell new ones at a regular basis.

00:49:27   But I do think this was done very poorly.

00:49:30   Even if this is the right thing to do,

00:49:33   the right way to do it is to tell the user.

00:49:38   And I said on Twitter earlier,

00:49:40   this should be a setting and you should tell the user.

00:49:43   I have since come around,

00:49:44   I don't think it needs to necessarily be a setting

00:49:46   because as somebody pointed out,

00:49:48   if you turn the setting off,

00:49:49   your phone just randomly dies all day.

00:49:50   That's not great.

00:49:52   So maybe it doesn't need to be a setting.

00:49:54   But it absolutely needs to be communicated to the user.

00:49:58   These phones are people's primary computers.

00:50:01   You can't slow down people's primary computers

00:50:03   by seemingly 20 to 50%

00:50:07   for a reason that you don't tell them about

00:50:09   and that they have no way to know

00:50:10   unless they run a benchmark.

00:50:11   Like, all they know is my phone is really slow

00:50:16   and maybe it's just 'cause it's old, I guess,

00:50:18   maybe I have to get a new one

00:50:19   and a new phone is a lot of money

00:50:22   and a battery replacement is not.

00:50:25   So for a lot of people,

00:50:27   they could just get battery,

00:50:28   if they knew that their phone would be way less slow

00:50:31   if they just got a battery replacement for $20 to $70,

00:50:36   a lot of people would choose that option

00:50:37   and save their money and maybe that'll help them out.

00:50:40   And to not tell them, to slow it down

00:50:44   for reasons that are not apparent to the user

00:50:47   and are never told to the user,

00:50:49   no matter what Apple says the reason is,

00:50:52   the users don't know that or don't believe them.

00:50:55   So this narrative that we have been battling for years

00:51:00   that Apple is intentionally slowing down phones

00:51:03   with each OS update to make you buy a new one,

00:51:05   And we've been saying, no, no, no,

00:51:07   they wouldn't do that, they don't do that.

00:51:10   They actually just did that.

00:51:11   Not to make you buy a new one,

00:51:12   but they are now slowing down old phones

00:51:17   with a new software update.

00:51:19   And even though their justifications are good,

00:51:23   that is not how it looks to the people

00:51:25   who it's happening to.

00:51:27   And now, this is not a small thing.

00:51:31   We've talked before about how certain

00:51:35   tech myths get embedded in people.

00:51:37   We talked about things like how,

00:51:39   "Oh, you should quit all your apps to save your battery."

00:51:42   Those things get embedded

00:51:44   and are very, very hard to ever remove.

00:51:47   Windows people probably still are defragging

00:51:48   their hard drives.

00:51:50   It's like, this is the kind of thing,

00:51:51   this doesn't change.

00:51:53   You still have people,

00:51:55   when their Macs are having weird problems,

00:51:58   you still have everyone in the world

00:51:59   telling them to reset their PRAM and stuff

00:52:03   and all these weird little voodoo things

00:52:04   that usually don't do anything.

00:52:06   What Apple has done with this

00:52:09   is they have confirmed the fears

00:52:13   of a very, very persistent and pervasive

00:52:17   and damaging theory or myth that was going on

00:52:20   about what Apple does with iPhones and iOS updates.

00:52:23   I think this is going to hurt their reputation

00:52:26   in this area for a decade.

00:52:28   It might even be longer.

00:52:30   This is the kind of thing that people do not forget quickly.

00:52:33   This is the kind of thing that,

00:52:34   while we might know the truth,

00:52:36   or how things are perceived,

00:52:40   or what things probably mean,

00:52:41   or what Apple probably intends,

00:52:42   we may know that.

00:52:44   But where this is going to linger forever

00:52:48   is like your crazy uncle at the Thanksgiving table,

00:52:51   and stuff like that.

00:52:52   People who, like kind of casual users

00:52:54   who think they know what they're doing,

00:52:56   and who spread that knowledge

00:52:58   around their friends and family,

00:53:00   this is going to persist with them

00:53:03   for a decade, and this is going to just be,

00:53:07   Apple's gonna have to fight this for a decade.

00:53:11   And what they really, really should have done instead,

00:53:14   which would have, like, anything they would have done here

00:53:17   to solve this problem is hard.

00:53:20   Like, there's downsides to any solution to the problem.

00:53:23   Like, oh, if your battery can't actually run the phone

00:53:25   at its full speed and you get random shutdowns,

00:53:27   well, yeah, that's bad.

00:53:28   They should do something to fix that if they can.

00:53:31   And they did, even with the fix.

00:53:34   Even if they did it perfectly with great communication,

00:53:36   people would say, "I am upset that Apple was slowing

00:53:40   "down my phone until I replaced the battery."

00:53:42   But at least they would know.

00:53:43   It wouldn't seem like deception.

00:53:45   It wouldn't seem like there's like this huge ulterior motive

00:53:48   that they want you to buy a new phone,

00:53:49   they wanna trick you into buying a new phone.

00:53:52   The only way to make this right is to clearly communicate

00:53:57   to the user when this throttling happens,

00:54:01   to put up a notification or something,

00:54:03   it can't just be buried in the battery screen

00:54:05   in settings like waiting for you to go check it.

00:54:07   You have to notify the user with a dialogue

00:54:10   or a notification that says something like,

00:54:14   your battery condition needs to be serviced

00:54:17   or is too worn out or something like that.

00:54:19   As a result, your phone will not perform at its fullest,

00:54:22   something like that.

00:54:23   Tell people exactly what is happening when it happens.

00:54:27   The first time that it has to be throttled

00:54:29   this mechanism, put up a notification, put up a dialogue

00:54:32   that says, your battery is too weak to do this,

00:54:35   your phone will now be slower because of this,

00:54:38   and click here for more information or whatever.

00:54:41   You have to tell people.

00:54:42   This problem would have been so much smaller

00:54:46   and more manageable and so much better received

00:54:49   if they would just tell people when this happened.

00:54:53   - So I agree with you that the messaging

00:54:55   is the crux of the issue, but do you really think

00:54:58   like Joe Consumer is going to be aware

00:55:01   of this whole kerfuffle?

00:55:03   Has this reached regular media?

00:55:06   Because it seems to me like this is just,

00:55:09   this is just nerds getting angry about nerdy things,

00:55:12   is it not?

00:55:13   Or maybe I'm missing the boat.

00:55:14   - Oh no, no.

00:55:15   I mean, first of all, my tweet about this

00:55:16   has like hundreds of retweets already as of seven days ago.

00:55:21   It's like, this is spreading far and wide,

00:55:25   And it doesn't, regular people don't have to know

00:55:28   about this, their crazy uncles at the Thanksgiving table

00:55:31   are the ones that have to know about this.

00:55:32   And they're all the ones on Reddit

00:55:33   who are picking all this up.

00:55:35   Believe me, it spreads, it spreads to all of them.

00:55:37   It's all those people who advise everyone in their life

00:55:41   that they have to quit all their apps.

00:55:42   It's the same thing, it's spreading

00:55:45   through that support channel.

00:55:47   Like the casual, crazy power user support channel

00:55:51   of people who are partially but not adequately informed

00:55:55   and who spread that to all the people they know.

00:55:58   This will be there for a decade.

00:56:00   - You two aren't really helping much on this

00:56:03   and neither are the million headlines

00:56:04   that have been about this because I, you know,

00:56:07   setting aside all the perception issues

00:56:09   which are totally true and like, you know,

00:56:12   at this point there's not much Apple can do about it

00:56:13   and they should have communicated better

00:56:14   and so on and so forth, everything Marco's already covered.

00:56:18   for the people who who know or are casually listening to this podcast or it's not in the

00:56:24   background whatever the essential thing that both of you did that i that i think is not the right

00:56:29   thing to do is to promote the the sort of summary narrative like not the nuanced detailed exactly

00:56:37   what's going on thing but the summary narrative is that uh as i would describe it there was a

00:56:42   perception that apple's doing a thing to make their phone slower to make you buy new phones

00:56:47   People in the know said they're not doing that, but now we have new information that shows that actually they kind of were.

00:56:52   And that's where I draw the line, because the perception was, Apple is doing something, doing whatever, to make you buy a new phone.

00:57:01   That's the important part of the story, because it makes Apple the bad guy.

00:57:06   Not that Apple is doing something that makes you phone slow, because we all know that Apple is doing something to make your phone slow.

00:57:09   It's called releasing new OSs. Like, that's what they're doing.

00:57:12   But that's what we would tell them. It's like, they're not doing it on purpose.

00:57:16   They just made a new OS and new OS is very often make your phone slower for all the reasons Marco listed

00:57:20   And we can go into all the details and they don't even care right, but they said no no

00:57:22   It's not like they're doing that they're doing something on purpose that they don't have to do

00:57:28   That's not part of the new OS to make your phone slower so that you will buy a new phone

00:57:34   not for any other reason not because

00:57:36   You know they added more features or background processing or blah blah blah and for no reason other than you must buy a new phone and

00:57:43   To make the summary narrative. It says we said they were never doing that but guess what they were they weren't

00:57:48   They're not doing a thing to make you buy a new phone that I feel is the important thing

00:57:55   You're right that people don't won't catch this nuance like everyone will just assume it's been confirmed

00:57:59   But I think it's irresponsible of people who run tech websites and do tech podcasts to say that in any way what came out today

00:58:07   Confirms the false narrative from before it seems like it might if you don't know what you're talking about

00:58:11   about and it will make people think it confirms. I totally agree that perception is there.

00:58:16   But the truth of the situation is that Apple is not and was not doing something to make

00:58:21   you buy a new phone. And that's the only nuance point I want to make to the people who care

00:58:25   about nuance points. Not that it's going to help. You could talk about it as carefully

00:58:29   as you want. People are going to believe what they want to believe. So I'm totally pessimistic

00:58:33   and cynical about the communication thing. But I do want to make that point here that

00:58:38   I think no part of this confirms the false narrative, right?

00:58:42   It makes people think it does, which is terrible for Apple,

00:58:44   and Marco's right, this is going to be really,

00:58:46   really bad for them, but it doesn't actually confirm it.

00:58:49   And on that issue, if they had communicated it better,

00:58:52   that would be better, but in the same way

00:58:56   that I'm pessimistic that even if you understand

00:58:57   all the nuances, it doesn't matter,

00:58:59   like perception is reality to lots of people,

00:59:01   by the same token, if Apple had communicated this,

00:59:06   guarantee some percentage, perhaps a smaller percentage,

00:59:09   but some percentage would say,

00:59:10   that message is fake, Apple just puts that up.

00:59:12   Why do they put that up?

00:59:13   To make you buy a new phone.

00:59:14   They're lying to you with this dialogue box

00:59:16   that says your phone's gonna slow to make you buy an,

00:59:18   oh, what a coincidence, new iPhone comes out

00:59:20   and I get this dialogue box on my old phone

00:59:22   that's telling me I need to buy a new phone, right?

00:59:24   Now, again, it doesn't mean they shouldn't do it.

00:59:25   It's still the right thing to do.

00:59:26   It's still way better than what they did.

00:59:28   But this is the job of, you know,

00:59:31   and arguably this is why they made this decision

00:59:34   not to say anything about it,

00:59:35   they're trying to find the way to minimize the bad perceptions. And I think probably

00:59:42   communicating would be the way to minimize it, because the really hurtful part of this

00:59:46   is like the error of omission, the deception by omission of like, "Apple never said anything

00:59:52   about this before," right? And that is a deceptive thing to do, and so that's on Apple, and they

00:59:57   deserve some of the reputation hit they were taking there. But yeah, there's no perfect

01:00:03   So, you know, even if they change it to do that, and I heard some good suggestions on

01:00:07   Twitter, I forget who's just, maybe it was Marco, maybe it was someone else, like change

01:00:10   the color of the battery meter to like purple or I don't know, they already use red and

01:00:15   green and yellow, but some other color to show like, it's not just that your battery

01:00:19   is like lower in the middle, but we found out that your battery is underperforming.

01:00:23   And to what Casey said at the beginning of this, your battery doesn't give up, it just

01:00:27   is not capable of delivering either the volts or the amps that are required by the CPU.

01:00:32   And the CPU has things that cause it,

01:00:34   you know, not the CPU, but like the parts

01:00:36   of the electronics say, look, if my voltage or current

01:00:39   are both dropped below some threshold, game over, right?

01:00:42   And that's what's happening.

01:00:43   So the battery is there dutifully pumping out

01:00:44   as much energy as it can and the CPU is like, nope, sorry,

01:00:47   game over, can't do it, everything goes black.

01:00:50   Not that it really matters the details, but anyway,

01:00:52   that's what's happening.

01:00:54   And, you know, if you want to get on Apple

01:00:59   for doing a thing that, you know, 5Y this down to like,

01:01:04   what is the root cause here?

01:01:06   You could get to the battery's not easily replaceable,

01:01:08   but you know, it's not that expensive to replace it.

01:01:11   You could get to the size of the battery,

01:01:13   you could get to how long,

01:01:14   if you use your phone like a regular person,

01:01:16   how long does your battery last?

01:01:17   Like the planned obsolescence thing is,

01:01:20   I feel like different than the perception

01:01:23   that Apple is doing, you know,

01:01:24   an evil thing to make you buy a new phone.

01:01:26   'Cause planned obsolescence, you could say,

01:01:28   They make a sealed phone with a battery that will be crappy after two years.

01:01:32   And they know all those numbers.

01:01:34   They know how long it will last, they know that it's sealed, so on and so forth.

01:01:37   Isn't that planned obsolescence?

01:01:38   Because this phone is released to you and they know the plan is that if you use this

01:01:42   like a regular phone, it will be a much worse phone in two years.

01:01:46   And that's essentially their plan.

01:01:48   They could make a phone that becomes a much worse phone in a week.

01:01:52   They could make a plan, a phone that becomes a much worse phone in five years.

01:01:56   Where have they chosen to draw that line is wherever they – I don't know if it's

01:01:58   two years.

01:01:59   I'm just making a number.

01:02:00   But that is a design choice.

01:02:01   And this brings me to a thing that has been buried in our show notes for a while that

01:02:04   I will now hoist up because it is relevant.

01:02:07   This is a YouTube video from – God, one of the things I hated most about YouTube is

01:02:12   how hard they make it to find the stupid date.

01:02:14   From September 1st, 2017.

01:02:17   This is another typical, sensational thing like all the articles today about, you know,

01:02:21   new information reveals that Apple is just as deceptive as your crazy uncle always said.

01:02:25   No, that's not what it confirms at all.

01:02:26   Anyway, "Is Apple ruining your max performance?"

01:02:30   Isn't that a great clickbaity title?

01:02:33   - That's like every Doug DeMuro title ever.

01:02:36   - Yes, his are boring because they're too same.

01:02:41   The number one pinned comment on this,

01:02:44   "Is Apple ruining your max performance?"

01:02:46   Spoiler alert, yes.

01:02:47   This article is about thermal throttling on max,

01:02:53   which actually Marco talked about a little bit,

01:02:55   although he surmised it was thermal based,

01:02:57   like when you plugged in your external monitor

01:02:59   at the beach house, like how it slowed down the clocks

01:03:02   on your MacBook Pro, am I remembering that right?

01:03:04   - Yeah, this is a pretty significant limitation

01:03:08   of the 2017 MacBook Pro, actually.

01:03:10   - And this is not just the, this test was in iMac, right?

01:03:13   So this is another case where, again,

01:03:16   the sensational headline would make you think

01:03:18   that Apple is inserting code,

01:03:19   I mean, this isn't about making you buy a new Mac,

01:03:21   but Apple's inserting code that says,

01:03:23   your computer could be faster, but we're going to do something in software to make it not

01:03:28   faster and withhold the performance from you.

01:03:30   Because we're evil Apple and we do this for insert reason that doesn't make any sense.

01:03:33   Because obviously, as Gruber points out and as many people point out, people think it's

01:03:37   in Apple's interest to make you buy a new phone, but it is not in Apple's interest to

01:03:41   make you buy a new phone by sabotaging your current iPhone.

01:03:45   Because that will just make you feel bad about iPhones and it'll make you want to buy a different

01:03:49   phone.

01:03:50   But anyway, setting that aside, logic doesn't factor in.

01:03:51   Like, again, perception.

01:03:52   It doesn't matter.

01:03:53   Logic does not enter into it.

01:03:54   The reason so many Macs thermal throttle,

01:03:58   and if you watch his video,

01:03:59   this is about gaming performance on an iMac,

01:04:03   or actually MacBook as well.

01:04:05   Maybe it's both, I forget.

01:04:06   Anyway, he puts it in a freezer and runs the benchmark

01:04:10   and having it out of the freezer.

01:04:11   - Of course.

01:04:12   - All these sort of temperature things.

01:04:14   Look, I'm not making this up.

01:04:16   Look, performance is here,

01:04:17   but then as things warm up, performance goes down,

01:04:19   you can see this stair-step pattern

01:04:20   the graphs of what your frame rate is, and then you put it in the freezer and you don't

01:04:23   see that, like it's pretty clear that things inside this computer run at more of a slow

01:04:28   speed until it gets kind of hot and sweaty in there, and the mechanisms inside the computer

01:04:33   that are there to protect the silicon from melting itself say, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, let's

01:04:38   start slowing things down," and it cranks down the clock speed. And this doesn't have

01:04:43   to do with battery life, this has to do with performance. And I would say that, again,

01:04:48   And Apple is not doing a malicious thing to make your computer bad because they are evil,

01:04:52   you know, rubbing their hands together villains, twirling their mustaches.

01:04:56   But they did design a computer in which if you play a game on it in a certain reasonable

01:05:04   ambient temperature for human kind of room, eventually it gets so hot that the mechanisms

01:05:09   that protect the silicon will kick in and it will start throttling down.

01:05:12   And Apple designed that computer, right?

01:05:14   Now, is it a manufacturing defect?

01:05:16   Did they put it together wrong?

01:05:18   Is the thermal paste not working?

01:05:19   Is the heat pipe not working right?

01:05:22   Or are they all like that?

01:05:23   Or are they all like that after a certain number of years and then in the beginning

01:05:26   they're not like that?

01:05:27   Whatever the thing is, this is a product that Apple made and you are not getting all the

01:05:32   performance you would hope to get out of it, that you could get out of it if it had better

01:05:36   cooling.

01:05:37   And same thing with the plugging in the external monitor.

01:05:39   Whether that is a sort of programmatic when the external monitor is plugged in just throttled

01:05:42   down immediately because we know there's going to be thermal issues, or whether it just so

01:05:45   happens that as soon as you plug in the external monitors, it immediately trips the thermal

01:05:48   thing and it drops it down. Either way, Apple's ability to extract heat away from the heat-sensitive

01:05:56   components is inadequate to allow those components to run at their top-rated speed all the time.

01:06:01   And that is a design choice by Apple, or a design flaw from Apple, however you want to

01:06:05   phrase it. In no case is it malicious, but it is a real fact of the products. And, you

01:06:11   another reason I'm waiting for a Mac Pro is like,

01:06:13   it's a compromise that you may say,

01:06:17   well, that compromise allows it to be thinner and lighter,

01:06:18   especially with a laptop.

01:06:20   With an iMac, it's harder to justify.

01:06:22   Say, yeah, it is thin back there,

01:06:23   but does it really need to be?

01:06:25   But we want it to be sleek and elegant, whatever.

01:06:28   These are real, and this is like the phone with like,

01:06:32   oh, they chose to put a battery in there

01:06:34   that maybe if it was a bigger battery,

01:06:37   it'd have more headroom,

01:06:38   and you wouldn't have to charge it full as much,

01:06:40   you could have more buffer on either side of it, sort of use the middle part of the

01:06:43   battery like Marcos Tesla does, or they could buy batteries from a different manufacturer,

01:06:47   or they could – there are things you can do to design the phone to try to avoid this

01:06:51   situation. And that, I think, is a legitimate place of potential difference with Apple.

01:06:58   And arguably, they have made different moves there, because this is about the sixth generation

01:07:03   with the shutdown stuff. The 7 had a bigger, better battery than the 6, right? And the

01:07:08   seems to have a bigger, better battery still, right?

01:07:11   So it seems like they are making adjustments

01:07:14   and learning from where they came from,

01:07:15   but that I feel like is, you know,

01:07:18   the communication stuff and everything,

01:07:20   I feel for Apple, but at the same time,

01:07:22   by being secretive and crossing their fingers

01:07:25   that people wouldn't notice, that's on them,

01:07:27   and they get all the bad PR.

01:07:29   I do feel bad that the perception will not match up

01:07:33   with reality even more so now because of this,

01:07:36   But I also think that the design choices that Apple has made that cause performance degradation,

01:07:45   like their compromises, I'm not sure they have struck the right balance.

01:07:50   It really depends on who you are.

01:07:51   Obviously, tech nerds are going to say that, of course, you struck the wrong balance because

01:07:55   I'll give up half a pound to get a non-throttle GPU.

01:07:59   Other people might want the half a pound because they don't care about throttling and all they

01:08:02   do is use Microsoft Word all day.

01:08:05   But from my perspective as a tech nerd, it bothered me to get a product that has to be

01:08:10   sort of babied or used in a freezer to get the rated performance out of it.

01:08:17   Kind of, not to trash on Marco's Tesla, but kind of like the Teslas where a lot of people

01:08:22   wrote in, we talked about Teslas and road tests and how I felt like it wasn't getting

01:08:26   its due and how it's such a great performance car but it's never put up against the real

01:08:31   ones and a lot of people pointed out, and I should have recalled this from reading all

01:08:33   lighting laps. A lot of that is not just because it's not great at handling because it's really

01:08:37   heavy, but also because you drive a Tesla hard to run a racetrack and eventually the

01:08:41   Tesla is like, "Eh, not so much. How about you lay off a little bit?" And it goes into

01:08:47   not limp mode, but it goes into please stop hurting me mode because my battery is getting

01:08:51   really hot and I really don't like doing hot laps as they're called, like literally hot

01:08:56   I'm not up for this. And so it's hard to get a bunch of good lap times because you do one

01:09:03   or two fast laps and then Tesla says no more. Like thermal throttling on a Mac and like

01:09:11   the battery that can't give enough juice, it says, "Can we just wait for the battery

01:09:15   to cool down a little bit maybe?" And that's not something you're looking for in a performance

01:09:21   car. So fast in a straight line, not so fast around curves, and you drive it fast for a

01:09:27   long time and it really, really doesn't like that and says with its electronics, "You will

01:09:33   not be doing that anymore for a while. I'm sorry. Physics." You know, my bad. So anyway,

01:09:39   to wrap this up, somehow I've managed to turn this story about Apple software protecting

01:09:47   its hardware into a story about how I really wanted the Mac Pro to not be thermal throttled

01:09:53   and Apple should make its computers faster.

01:09:54   - Shock horse.

01:09:55   - Right.

01:09:56   But, yeah, like I said, if you take one thing away from this, take away the sad realization,

01:10:04   the idea, the knowledge that none of this information actually confirms the evil things

01:10:10   people used to think about Apple, but everyone will believe it does.

01:10:13   And that's a bummer for Apple and they're partially to bring with bad PR handling.

01:10:18   But you should continue not to believe that Apple purposely slows down computers because

01:10:21   A, that would be a dumb thing to do and B, they don't do it to make you buy a new phone.

01:10:27   Also, please never put your computing devices in the freezer.

01:10:30   Condensation exists.

01:10:32   This is a problem.

01:10:33   Put them in mineral oil.

01:10:34   Come on.

01:10:35   You probably don't know about this because you were always a Mac person.

01:10:38   In case you might remember, do you remember back then, like, one of the early heydays

01:10:43   overclocking in like the very late 90s or early 2000s.

01:10:46   Overclockers started using, I don't know how these

01:10:48   are pronounced, Peltier plates?

01:10:51   You know what I'm talking about?

01:10:52   - I know about this.

01:10:53   - No. - I think I know about this.

01:10:53   - Yeah, so one of the ways that, you know,

01:10:56   water cooling was not extreme enough if you wanted

01:10:58   to push like a Celeron up to two gigahertz or whatever.

01:11:00   So people started using these Peltier devices,

01:11:03   which are these like thermoelectric things.

01:11:06   They're like, they're solid state, no moving parts,

01:11:09   and you apply a ton of power to them,

01:11:11   and one side gets super cold and one side gets super hot.

01:11:15   I think anti-griddles use these, I'm not sure.

01:11:19   But anyway, however you pronounce those things,

01:11:22   overclockers decided that this was a good way

01:11:25   to get even colder cooling of their CPUs,

01:11:28   they could push them even further.

01:11:30   And it's especially egregious because all the power

01:11:34   that it draws, which is a lot to perform this cooling,

01:11:38   the hot side gets all the heat of the processor

01:11:41   plus that wattage that it's using.

01:11:42   So, like, the cold side gets a little cold,

01:11:45   the hot side gets really hot.

01:11:48   - It was the Mac DLT of cooling solutions.

01:11:51   Hot side hot, cold side cold.

01:11:52   (laughing)

01:11:54   I miss the Mac DLT.

01:11:56   - Yeah, anyway, and so one of the problems,

01:11:58   one of the reasons, one of the many reasons

01:12:00   why people, I don't think, really use those

01:12:02   for more than about six months is because

01:12:06   once you introduce the possibility for something

01:12:09   in your computer case to get below ambient temperature,

01:12:12   you start having problems with condensation

01:12:14   and possibly frost.

01:12:16   And this is a really big problem

01:12:18   inside of a computer case.

01:12:19   - Electronics do not like water.

01:12:22   - And of course they decided,

01:12:23   okay, now we can back off frost and condensation

01:12:26   and now we can just go to pumping water through our case.

01:12:28   That's much better.

01:12:30   - Well, I mean, like you said,

01:12:31   it's all about ambient temperature

01:12:32   because if you start making the surrounding air cooler

01:12:34   and it can no longer hold the water that is in it

01:12:37   and it condenses out of the air, that's a problem.

01:12:39   If everything is at air temperature or higher, it's still way lower than the temperature

01:12:43   of the little hot piece of silicon in there.

01:12:45   So you're fine with condensation.

01:12:47   You just gotta make sure you have no leaks.

01:12:50   So is that it on the deliberately planned obsolescence?

01:12:54   That may or may not really be a thing?

01:12:56   It's not!

01:12:57   You're doing it again!

01:12:58   Not may or may not really be a thing.

01:12:59   It's not really a thing!

01:13:00   I'm kidding!

01:13:01   I'm kidding!

01:13:02   Good grief, John.

01:13:03   Like, see, this is the problem.

01:13:04   No matter how much people talk about it, they're like, "Yeah, but this does kind of confirm

01:13:05   what everyone said, doesn't it?"

01:13:06   No!

01:13:07   No, it doesn't!

01:13:08   - What they were saying was not that they're slung

01:13:10   down the computer, but for a reason.

01:13:12   And I know this is a nuance, and I totally agree

01:13:14   that no one is gonna get this, but the ATP listeners

01:13:16   will know, and I would caution you, ATP listeners,

01:13:19   do not attempt to explain this to other people

01:13:20   like at Christmas dinner, 'cause it will not go over well.

01:13:23   Just nod your head and say, "You were right all along."

01:13:26   Don't even confirm that they were right,

01:13:27   just go have a different conversation.

01:13:30   - No, yeah, guess what?

01:13:31   You're not gonna be the one bringing it up.

01:13:34   All of our listeners who are known probably

01:13:36   has the computer people in their family,

01:13:38   all their other relatives are gonna ask them about it.

01:13:41   You won't have to bring it up, people will ask you.

01:13:44   - Yeah, then you can tell them the truth, I suppose,

01:13:46   but it's a nuance that people don't care about,

01:13:48   'cause people really, really wanna be right

01:13:49   about their conspiracy theory.

01:13:50   And we can get into the psychology of this,

01:13:52   of why everyone wants to seem like they are savvy,

01:13:57   like that the world's not pulling one over at me,

01:13:59   this is how they get ya.

01:14:00   The world attempts to pull one over, but I'm no dummy.

01:14:04   I know what the truth is.

01:14:06   So Apple, people think Apple's great, but I know the truth about Apple.

01:14:10   The truth about Apple is they intentionally make your phone slower to make you buy a new

01:14:13   one.

01:14:14   And I'm on, you know, they're not fooling me, right?

01:14:16   And it's important to them to feel like they are, that the world is not fooling them.

01:14:22   This is often people who are mostly being fooled by almost everything in the world,

01:14:27   and so they, you know, it's important that they show that that's not the case.

01:14:32   So no matter how much, you will never convince these people that it's not the case.

01:14:36   There is no, literally you will never convince them.

01:14:38   Like if they could personally speak to and live with for a year every employee living

01:14:43   in debt of Apple and be truly convinced that they were never doing this, they would do

01:14:47   that in their infant lifespan and come back and say, "Yeah, but I kind of think they were

01:14:50   really doing it."

01:14:51   Well, and it really doesn't help that Apple just basically proved the first two-thirds

01:14:55   of their theory correct.

01:14:56   Yeah, no, but that's the thing.

01:14:59   There is no two-thirds of the theory.

01:15:01   the conclusion. Like, it's like, this is what they're doing. Like, they're doing it to make

01:15:05   you buy a new phone. Because the other part of it is not something to get worked about.

01:15:08   They're doing it to make sure the hardware, to make sure my phone doesn't turn off. Well,

01:15:12   that doesn't sound like something I should get mad about. Because they don't care about

01:15:15   the nuances like PR, communication, and so on and so forth, right? Maybe, if you want

01:15:19   to convince them, maybe you could say, "What you should really be mad about is the fact

01:15:21   that Apple didn't say this earlier." And then they can get mad about that and maybe they'll

01:15:25   feel like they still are righteously angry. And they can be righteously angry about that,

01:15:29   fine. But some people will never give up on the notion of malice. Like Volkswagen engineers

01:15:36   secretly cheating emissions tests, because that's the worst thing about this. As Gruber

01:15:40   points out in his article, he uses Uber as an example because he doesn't know about the

01:15:43   automotive world, but VW is probably a more apt example. Large corporations do legitimately

01:15:50   do actual, actively, maliciously evil, cheaty things like this. Not by accident, not to

01:15:56   protect the engine but like detect when you're being emission tested and pretend like you

01:16:01   have less emissions than you do but then really when you get used as a car put out way more

01:16:05   emissions.

01:16:06   Volkswagen did that.

01:16:07   That's not good for that company.

01:16:09   So it's not a stretch to believe the corporation would do that but you know the reason I mean

01:16:13   I guess we have to say like the reason we all believe Apple wouldn't do this is mostly

01:16:19   because it doesn't make sense.

01:16:21   I mean it's partially because we know people at Apple and we trust Apple and believe it

01:16:24   and maybe we're suckers and blah blah blah.

01:16:25   But also because unlike cheating on emissions tests, which has a big upside for VW if they

01:16:31   can pull it off, successfully pulling off, intentionally making your phones worse to

01:16:36   make people buy new ones, like it wouldn't make people buy new ones.

01:16:39   As Gruber has pointed out many, many times, it would make people buy an Android phone.

01:16:42   Like if they knew, like if their phones just get worse.

01:16:45   And this has happened by the way with the shutdown stuff.

01:16:47   I've seen stuff like I bought my last iPhone but then it just kept turning off.

01:16:50   Forget it, next time I'm getting an Android phone, it's way cheaper anyway, right?

01:16:53   That's what actually happens if you intentionally, or not intentionally, if the phone you have

01:16:58   starts getting worse, you know, like Casey with his BMW, if your engine keeps blowing

01:17:02   up, you're thinking maybe my next car won't be a BMW.

01:17:06   He's not like, "That clever BMW tricking me into buying another BMW, but making my engine

01:17:10   blow up intentionally."

01:17:12   That's not how the world works.

01:17:14   But people do really want to feel like that they understand how they get you and the world's

01:17:17   not pulling one over on them.

01:17:19   Well, because in this case, the world did pull one over on them.

01:17:22   This one's like the only fix to this.

01:17:25   I mean, it's gonna be a long-term reputation problem

01:17:27   and having malice attributed to it

01:17:30   is gonna be a very long-term problem.

01:17:32   But the only way to start fixing this

01:17:36   is to communicate about it from the phone.

01:17:38   A PR statement is not enough

01:17:39   'cause most of these people will not read PR statements

01:17:41   and if they do, they won't believe them.

01:17:43   The phone has to tell them when this throttling happens

01:17:47   and tell them why it's happening.

01:17:49   - How much do you think that will help?

01:17:51   - I agree that it will help, but how much?

01:17:53   - Oh, massively, because that totally changes

01:17:57   the view of it, not for everybody,

01:17:59   they're not gonna convince everybody,

01:18:01   but they will, it'll at least appear

01:18:04   that they're not trying to hide this fact from you.

01:18:07   Because the narrative is that they are secretly,

01:18:11   like trickily, like slowing down your phone.

01:18:14   If they tell you your phone can't run at full speed

01:18:17   because the battery is too worn out,

01:18:20   That's a very different look.

01:18:22   And again, that's gonna piss people off too,

01:18:25   but not as many.

01:18:26   It's way fewer.

01:18:28   - Right, well, let's give a percentage.

01:18:29   If 100% is everyone suddenly has good feelings,

01:18:32   and 0% is this doesn't make anybody feel better,

01:18:35   what percentage would you say that this helps?

01:18:36   - Maybe half to two thirds, I'd say.

01:18:38   I mean, a lot.

01:18:39   - We're on the same page, 'cause I think it's half as well.

01:18:41   My guess would be about half.

01:18:43   Half of the people will see that dialogue,

01:18:45   and will be like, yeah, it's a bummer,

01:18:47   but I understand what's going on.

01:18:49   And the other half of the people, like I said, will say, "This dialog box proves that Apple's

01:18:53   trying to get me a new phone by lying to me with this dialog box."

01:18:56   So it is way better than what they did this time, but I'm pessimistic that this will...

01:19:02   And if you think about it, the not saying anything strategy...

01:19:08   Pretend the not saying anything strategy had been ongoing, and this whole information had

01:19:14   not come out.

01:19:15   They just continued with the not saying anything thing.

01:19:18   Apple could have theoretically weathered that storm and just put better batteries in their

01:19:21   phone and eventually the 6s all cycle out and then they sort of "win."

01:19:28   So this strategy they chose to do is riskier because something like what just happened

01:19:33   could happen, but the potential upside I think is better than the 50% solution where half

01:19:38   the people think now the dialog box is proof positive that Apple is trying to trick you

01:19:43   into buying a new phone by making your phone slower because that dialog box is totally

01:19:46   "Yes, my battery's fine, I know it's fine."

01:19:48   But it's telling me I didn't need a new phone,

01:19:49   it's just, you know, anyway.

01:19:50   - Well, and to be clear, they said, like,

01:19:52   they said in a statement that right now

01:19:53   it applies to iPhone 6 and 6S, but it's going to,

01:19:56   but the 7 is gonna be added soon,

01:19:58   and future devices will be added as time goes on.

01:20:00   Like, they said that.

01:20:01   So it isn't a problem inherent to the 6 and 6S.

01:20:03   Like, this problem isn't gonna go away.

01:20:05   - Right, but I think the battery's better in the 7, though.

01:20:07   Like, I think, like, they put a bigger battery in it,

01:20:09   and that supposedly will make it, you know,

01:20:11   so that it doesn't get, go under current as, you know,

01:20:14   So maybe it'll last instead of two years,

01:20:15   two and a half years or whatever.

01:20:17   I think they're, because I think the root problem

01:20:19   is sort of the design lifetime of the phone, right?

01:20:22   It's not like, you know, they have to pick a design lifetime.

01:20:24   Like you have to, like I said,

01:20:25   they could pick any number they wanted as their target.

01:20:27   I think they've been moving their target up,

01:20:29   which will help them with this problem.

01:20:30   There is no phone that can make a design

01:20:32   where this problem will never come up

01:20:33   unless they have totally different battery technology.

01:20:35   So they have to pick a time.

01:20:37   And no matter what, they need to have this messaging

01:20:40   so if someone happens to keep their phone,

01:20:42   they make a phone the last five years,

01:20:44   What if someone keeps it for six years?

01:20:46   You still need all this mechanism in there for when it goes bad.

01:20:50   It's just a question of what that number is, and I think the number is farther out on the

01:20:55   sevens and tens.

01:20:56   We'll see.

01:20:57   We'll see when they have the software feature.

01:20:58   I mean, you'll find out basically of like, do people have sevens now that are like switching

01:21:01   off like KC6 used to, or are all the sevens too young at this point?

01:21:05   I don't know.

01:21:06   I haven't heard any.

01:21:07   I mean, I have a seven, so I'll be watching for it, but it's an inherent problem with

01:21:13   battery technology and the problem with having a sealed battery and all that stuff.

01:21:18   And so communication will help with that, but I think Apple also dreads the idea of

01:21:25   people seeing that dialogue box because some people, some percentage of people will see

01:21:30   that dialogue box and have a concrete thing to point to to say that Apple is malicious

01:21:38   and evil.

01:21:39   Like, "Look at this dialogue box.

01:21:40   is coming right out and telling me, "You should buy a new phone because we're artificially

01:21:45   making your phone slow to make you buy a new phone."

01:21:47   That's how they'll read that dialog box.

01:21:48   That's a bummer.

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01:23:34   [Music]

01:23:38   Apple is taking a page from the Windows

01:23:41   playbook.

01:23:43   I wouldn't say that. At least I hope not.

01:23:47   Just today, and by today I mean exactly

01:23:49   seven days ago,

01:23:50   Apple, or I should say that Bloomberg

01:23:53   released a post, this is Mark Gurman,

01:23:57   saying "Apple plans combined iPhone, iPad,

01:23:59   and Mac apps to create one user

01:24:01   experience."

01:24:02   Speaking of a Microsoft tagline, "One user

01:24:04   experience. And speaking of a headline that does not accurately represent the

01:24:07   ideas contained in the article. That's true too. I'm shocked. Yeah, no way. So this is

01:24:13   a again a post by Gurman and and the summary seems to be that there will be a

01:24:20   change probably next year if he's right that what we currently think of as a

01:24:25   universal app or maybe there'll be a new term for it but but there will be a

01:24:29   mechanism by which the same app can be run on iOS and Mac OS.

01:24:37   And so in the same way that we have universal apps on the iOS App Store, which can be run

01:24:42   on iPhone and iPad, in the future there -- and I guess Apple Watch, although that's not really

01:24:48   part of being universal, but anyway, it's three different platforms -- in the future

01:24:53   There may or perhaps will be a mechanism by which we will have the same app running on

01:25:00   iPhone, on iPad, potentially on Apple Watch, and on Mac OS.

01:25:06   And nobody really knows what the engineering mechanism is behind this, but that supposedly

01:25:14   is the future if you believe Mark Gurman.

01:25:16   So I think it's worth pontificating about what the different paths are to this end,

01:25:25   but before we go down that road, are there any immediate thoughts on this, starting with

01:25:30   Jon?

01:25:31   Jon Streeter I think the important thing, the important

01:25:33   part of this story to think about, and this is just a rumor so we don't know, blah, blah,

01:25:36   blah, they did a lot of equivocating in this.

01:25:39   Like, "Oh, it might come next year, but they might cancel it, but it might not."

01:25:42   Great.

01:25:43   Okay.

01:25:44   The motivation behind this is something that we've talked about in this show a lot, specifically

01:25:47   when Marco's been making Mac applications and stuff.

01:25:51   Poorly.

01:25:52   Yeah, and the struggles he's had with that.

01:25:55   Here's what I think, why I believe that projects like this are conceivably going on inside

01:26:02   Apple and may actually ship.

01:26:06   Apple has an important asset that they brag about in keynotes all the time, but that I

01:26:13   I think people tend not to think about that much, which is, you know, when they put up

01:26:18   that slide it says, "We have X number of thousands or millions of developers."

01:26:22   They brag about number apps, but number of apps is a proxy for number of developers,

01:26:25   because developers are writing those apps.

01:26:28   Apple used to have a certain amount of people who were Mac developers, but now they have

01:26:32   way, way more people who are iOS developers.

01:26:34   There are a lot of iOS developers.

01:26:37   That is a tremendous asset for Apple.

01:26:39   It's a huge number of people who know how to write applications for iOS and do it to

01:26:45   make money.

01:26:46   It's a virtuous cycle, like it's, you know, the whole marketplace, it's great for...

01:26:49   Apple makes money when they make money, but really the important asset is a bunch of people

01:26:53   out there know how to write iOS apps.

01:26:56   Fewer people out there know how to write Mac apps.

01:26:59   Fewer every year, because the Mac developers get older and most people who are learning

01:27:03   to write apps are learning to write them on iOS.

01:27:06   One way Apple could deal with this is say, "We're just going to sunset the Mac.

01:27:10   Whatever the Mac was the past, iOS is the future.

01:27:12   All these developers know how to develop for iOS.

01:27:13   We'll just let all the Mac developers retire and go off into the sunset, and we'll can

01:27:18   the Mac line, and blah, blah, blah."

01:27:22   And everything we've seen out of Apple VR has said, "No, we're not doing that.

01:27:25   The Mac is important, blah, blah, blah."

01:27:27   And yeah, it's important until it's not, but so far the messaging is pretty clear.

01:27:31   Thumbs up on the Mac.

01:27:32   In fact, we're rededicating ourselves to the Mac.

01:27:35   The Mac is an important product.

01:27:36   The Mac and iOS fill different roles.

01:27:38   We're never going to force the Mac to be like iOS

01:27:41   or force iOS to be like the Mac.

01:27:43   All those things that they said.

01:27:45   But they do have the problem of a small number of Mac

01:27:48   developers, a small number of Mac apps,

01:27:50   and it's smaller all the time.

01:27:54   Tons of applications are available on iOS and tvOS,

01:27:58   but not on the Mac.

01:28:00   In the old days of just the PC world,

01:28:02   of course they'd be available on the Mac

01:28:03   if they were available on any Apple platform.

01:28:05   Now, many things are available on Apple platforms

01:28:07   that's not available on the Mac.

01:28:08   And one of the big reasons is,

01:28:10   you have all these developers who know how to write iOS apps

01:28:12   but they don't know how to write Mac apps.

01:28:14   And writing Mac apps is different enough

01:28:16   that it is non-trivial to do that.

01:28:18   So they're, assuming Apple wants to keep the Mac around,

01:28:22   which they keep saying they do,

01:28:24   one way to solve that problem is to find a way

01:28:26   to let the huge number of people

01:28:29   who know how to write iOS apps

01:28:31   Reuse some or all those skills to target the Mac.

01:28:35   And that I think is what any project like this would be about.

01:28:41   It would be about leveraging that asset to, you know, bring up their other platform.

01:28:49   And yes, the unification is important too, like trying to unify.

01:28:51   But you know, the reason I said the headline was misleading is because it says,

01:28:55   uh, to create one user experience.

01:28:58   But then you read the article and it's like, the application sometimes will use touch.

01:29:01   But then sometimes we'll use a mouse and a pointer.

01:29:03   It's like, that's not one user experience.

01:29:05   That's two user experiences.

01:29:06   And it should be, because a mouse cursor

01:29:07   is different than touch, and you can't use--

01:29:09   different things work in different--

01:29:11   anyway, this is all about leveraging those skills.

01:29:16   And I think Marco already talked about this on one

01:29:18   of his podcasts, that he's already

01:29:20   recorded in the past future.

01:29:21   I don't know how time works anymore.

01:29:23   The days of future past.

01:29:24   Seven days ago, we discussed under the radar.

01:29:26   Yeah.

01:29:28   But I think you'll hear a lot about iOS developers

01:29:31   saying, "Yeah, if I could use my skills to either make a Mac app or to bring the app

01:29:37   that I already have on iPhone and iPad to the Mac, maybe that would make sense. At the

01:29:41   very least, I would entertain it. Like, I wouldn't rule it out. Like, I'd have to see

01:29:44   if it makes sense in terms of economics and so on and so forth. There are some potential

01:29:48   upsides and potential downsides. But a lot of time, you know, like, it's when you remove

01:29:54   the barrier and say, "You can use your skills that you have for iOS and you know how to

01:29:58   UI kid and make table views and do all this stuff and there's some new stuff you might

01:30:01   learn but you can reuse your code and you can reuse your skills to varying a sense.

01:30:07   They would be open to that idea because it is a potential new way to make money and yes

01:30:10   it's a smaller platform but in theory, we don't know if this is true, but in theory

01:30:14   you might be able to charge even higher prices than you do on the iPad.

01:30:18   So that's the lens through which I'm viewing all these rumors and getting at what Casey

01:30:22   was talking about.

01:30:23   Yeah, but how?

01:30:24   But how would they do that?

01:30:25   There are many ways that they could do it that would be bad for Mac users and bad for

01:30:28   for developers, like they could blow it,

01:30:30   but if I wanted to put up like,

01:30:32   what are the goals of this project?

01:30:34   The goals are leverage one of Apple's greatest assets,

01:30:37   tons of developers who know how to develop for iOS.

01:30:39   - Right, so before we talk how, Marco, any other thoughts?

01:30:44   - The devil's in the details,

01:30:45   but conceptually, I love this idea.

01:30:48   It is not gonna be an easy thing to do.

01:30:52   Assuming this is really a thing they're working on,

01:30:56   That's not easy because the two platforms are

01:30:59   very, very different from each other.

01:31:01   And I don't just mean like at an API level.

01:31:04   I'm talking about just like the interaction

01:31:06   and usefulness level and the needs of a Mac app versus iOS.

01:31:11   In many ways, developing an iOS is way easier

01:31:15   because there's a lot of things

01:31:16   that you don't have to worry about that on the Mac

01:31:19   you have to accommodate or think about or support

01:31:23   just because people expect different kinds

01:31:24   of interactions on the Mac.

01:31:26   just simple things like you have the entire menu system.

01:31:30   You also have things like drag and drop

01:31:32   and different types of data providing services

01:31:35   that you have.

01:31:36   All sorts of different, you have windowing,

01:31:39   multiple windows, multiple documents being open,

01:31:42   the entire document system behind that.

01:31:45   You have things like undo,

01:31:46   which you don't have really on iOS.

01:31:49   All sorts of rich behaviors that have been built over time,

01:31:55   many of which quite a long time ago,

01:31:56   that people expect all, quote, computer apps

01:31:59   to be able to do now, things like scriptability,

01:32:03   even like there's so, so much that Mac apps do

01:32:06   that iOS developers don't ever have to worry about

01:32:09   or don't have to even think about.

01:32:10   Making something that can do that rich power of the Mac

01:32:15   with iOS-like code or iOS-like UI frameworks,

01:32:21   that's not a small job.

01:32:23   And there's lots of ways to do that very badly.

01:32:26   And so a lot of Mac people are wary of this announcement,

01:32:31   or they were seven days ago at least,

01:32:33   where they're worried, like, you know,

01:32:35   we don't want like the equivalent of an iOS app

01:32:38   running in a simulator window, just, you know,

01:32:42   and here we are like dragging our mouse over it

01:32:44   to simulate tuck swipes and everything,

01:32:46   like nobody wants that.

01:32:48   And if that's what this ends up being,

01:32:49   that would be a huge failure on a number of levels,

01:32:51   and a tragedy, honestly.

01:32:54   But I have a feeling Apple's better than that.

01:32:56   I don't think they would do that.

01:32:57   I think if they're gonna do this at all,

01:33:00   hopefully they're gonna do a really good job of it.

01:33:02   And that's, again, that's not easy.

01:33:06   And it wouldn't surprise me if they go down this road,

01:33:09   if they've been going down this road for a while,

01:33:11   and then they eventually decide, you know what,

01:33:12   this actually isn't good enough,

01:33:14   we shouldn't do this anymore.

01:33:15   Like that wouldn't surprise me at all.

01:33:17   - But I feel like even if they did,

01:33:18   and maybe they've done that three times already,

01:33:20   they would take another run at it,

01:33:21   because I feel like the only two possible options are sunset the Mac or find a way to

01:33:26   leverage your fleet. Because eventually, you know, in a not huge number of years...

01:33:33   Would you say on an infinite time scale?

01:33:35   No, on a non-infinite, on a finite and fairly short time scale...

01:33:39   That one just gets the desk gone.

01:33:41   The number of people who know how to make a good Mac app is not going up. It's just

01:33:45   not, right? And the number of people who know how to make a good iOS app is going up, and

01:33:50   tremendous number of this. You have to find a way to either, you know, don't have people

01:33:54   develop with the Mac anymore or repurpose, repoint your big ass out of that fleet of

01:33:58   developers at the Mac, because that's the only way you're going to get an ongoing supply

01:34:02   of good Mac apps, right? And so I think, you know, like you said, there are just so many

01:34:08   ways to do this wrong, right? And if they tried a bunch of approaches and they suck,

01:34:12   I think they would say, "Okay, but let's try again with a different approach." Eventually

01:34:16   you assume the one they come out with is an approach that they feel kind of okay with,

01:34:20   but they could blow it and try again.

01:34:22   Anyway, for the approaches,

01:34:24   I think there's a few obvious ones.

01:34:27   A couple of the obvious ones,

01:34:28   it's not clear to me whether these are approaches

01:34:30   that they've decided suck and they don't wanna pursue,

01:34:32   but at the very least,

01:34:34   these are approaches they have code for

01:34:35   are things like UXKit,

01:34:37   which is like when a lot of applications

01:34:39   start appearing on the Mac

01:34:40   and people said they looked and smelled

01:34:41   kinda like iOS applications,

01:34:43   a lot of them used either actual UXKit

01:34:45   or similar approaches where it is like a UIKit

01:34:49   sort of facade that just calls App Kit stuff under the covers

01:34:52   to let you repurpose code that you originally

01:34:54   wrote for iOS devices to make a quote unquote Mac

01:34:57   application that kind of looks and behaves a little bit

01:35:00   like an iOS application.

01:35:02   Photos for the Mac is a great example.

01:35:03   This, you know, arguably like contacts or even something

01:35:07   like the new Notes application.

01:35:08   A lot of these applications that you look at them--

01:35:11   Maps, yeah.

01:35:12   A lot of apps out there, they kind of--

01:35:15   I mean, there's a family resemblance, but also

01:35:17   behavior-wise, you can kind of tell that they're not just using straight AppKit

01:35:20   because a lot of the stuff that you basically get for free with AppKit

01:35:23   doesn't exist in these applications, like different behaviors, different, you know,

01:35:27   behaviors in terms of focus and keyboard shortcuts and stuff like that that are

01:35:31   just different for reasons that don't make sense until you realize that they

01:35:34   probably just reused a lot of UI kit code. So a UX kit-like approach is one

01:35:39   possible way to do that, and like I said, it's not clear to me whether they did

01:35:42   that and decided actually that's not great so we're not taking that approach,

01:35:45   or they did that over many years with many applications, decided,

01:35:48   "Actually, this approach works pretty well, and this is what we're going to go with."

01:35:50   So that approach would be essentially a new framework that's not AppKit,

01:35:56   but not UIKit, but it looks very much like UIKit,

01:35:58   and lets people reuse some of their code from UIKit,

01:36:02   maybe with small tweaks, but a lot of their skills.

01:36:05   "Oh, I kind of know how table views work. I know how buttons work.

01:36:07   I know how, you know, animations and transitions work," right?

01:36:11   And there's tons of new stuff you have to learn, too, with menus and so on and so forth.

01:36:14   But that's one approach.

01:36:16   A second approach is make a new toolkit, and unfortunately, Apple has really used up a

01:36:22   lot of the good names.

01:36:25   It's a kit for making apps.

01:36:26   Oh, we can't call it AppKit.

01:36:27   It's a UI kit.

01:36:28   Oh, no, forget about that one.

01:36:29   It's an HI tool, but no, never mind.

01:36:31   Like, they've really used...

01:36:33   HI kit is one of the ones I've heard, like, you can combine kit with...

01:36:36   Anyway, come up with a new framework that looks almost exactly like UI kit, but presumably

01:36:41   the UI kit represents the best thinking the company has about how to make a UI, but with

01:36:46   changes to fundamental things about it that allow it to handle all the things the Mac

01:36:52   does, menus, cursors, scrollbars, blah, blah, blah, and also all the things the UI kit does.

01:36:57   So that's the actual sort of grand unified, like there is one framework to write applications

01:37:04   for everything. And that would mean that it's not a shim on top of AppKit that presumably

01:37:11   they would implement, whatever behaviors they implemented would define going forward what

01:37:15   it means to be Mac-like, right?

01:37:18   As opposed to now where AppKit defines what it means to be Mac-like, more or less.

01:37:22   And AppKit itself is influenced by being smushed together with Carbon and HI, Toolkit and all

01:37:27   that other stuff.

01:37:28   That's why, what defines our definition of Mac-like.

01:37:32   And that definition changed from classic Mac OS as well.

01:37:33   So it's not like the definition of Mac-like can't change.

01:37:36   But yeah, an entirely new framework to do it.

01:37:39   And that new framework would also be the same new framework that people use for iOS.

01:37:42   So when you wrote your iOS application, you would also use...

01:37:44   This is like the one new framework that can do everything.

01:37:49   The risks in that are, "Hey, why are you messing up all of these iOS developers' days?"

01:37:53   "Well, I learned all this UIKit stuff, and now I have to learn this new thing?"

01:37:56   "Yeah, it looks not like UIKit, but why do I want to use that?

01:37:59   If it's just like UIKit, but subtly different with a bunch of Mac crap that I don't care

01:38:01   about, why would I learn that?"

01:38:04   So that is more difficult to pull off and risky, but potentially the reward is finally

01:38:09   Certainly Apple has one way to write applications for all its platforms, and they have a unified

01:38:15   API.

01:38:16   But in all of these solutions, and I think the real place where any of these solutions

01:38:19   are going to be really hard to come up with something that ends up being a win for all

01:38:25   involved is, as this headline incorrectly states, it's not one user experience for everybody.

01:38:34   still seems dedicated to the idea that a mouse pointer and cursor and, like, you know, the

01:38:39   Mac user interface will continue to be a thing. And applications that work like that are different

01:38:46   than applications that work when you're touching them with your finger in fundamental, important

01:38:49   ways. And there's really no way to say this one magic application just magically works

01:38:54   everywhere. I made a tweet earlier today, it was "write thrice run anywhere," which

01:38:58   is a joke on the old Java thing of "write once run anywhere." "Write thrice" means,

01:39:03   Even if it is a unified toolkit and it's the same thing everywhere, you use Xcode, you

01:39:07   use one framework, and you write an application that runs on all these platforms, you still

01:39:11   have essentially to "write it thrice," which means you have to write the Mac version and

01:39:16   do all the stuff with the menus and the keyboard shortcuts and the drag and drop and everything

01:39:19   that the Mac has to do, right?

01:39:21   You have to write the iPhone version, which is a known quantity.

01:39:25   And you have to write the iPad version.

01:39:26   It's like, "Well, why do you have to write the iPad version?

01:39:28   That's not another version."

01:39:29   Ask somebody with an iOS app if the iPad version comes for free because they use UIKit.

01:39:33   It does not come for free.

01:39:35   You have to not write it thrice like it's three times the application, but just because

01:39:40   the screen gets bigger, you have to say, "Let me rethink how my application works.

01:39:44   I have to add new elements to it.

01:39:46   I have to potentially add new features."

01:39:49   It's not enough to just be a phone app that is stretched to be a little bit wider.

01:39:53   So there's no way of avoiding having to write a good application for every platform if the

01:39:59   platforms continue to be different in both form factor and in the case of the Mac, you

01:40:05   know, interface paradigm. Like, that's very different.

01:40:09   And the environment. Yeah. And no framework, no UI framework will

01:40:14   ever eliminate that work. All it can do is say, the only work you have to do is that

01:40:19   work to make a good application that works in the Mac a good app, but you won't have

01:40:23   to relearn how colors work, right? You won't have to relearn how to play audio

01:40:29   like, you know, just that they'll unify the underlying things and have one unified framework

01:40:35   and one unified language and IDE and one unified binary, but you still have to design essentially

01:40:41   three different applications in three very different forms. And by the way, the watch,

01:40:44   which, you know, they could unify that as well and not have watch kit and have that

01:40:47   be a variant of this thing if they want to go whole hog. But there's no avoiding that.

01:40:52   It's not one user experience. It's one, I guess, framework, one language, you know,

01:40:58   And maybe not even that if they end up going with the shim approach.

01:41:00   So I believe they have to do this, but boy, there's a lot of ways it could mess up.

01:41:07   And so I wish them luck.

01:41:10   So if they go whole new framework, so they make H.I.

01:41:14   Kit, or whatever you want to call it.

01:41:16   I mean, come on, it's Swift.

01:41:17   It would just be called Kit.

01:41:19   Well, it's funny you say that, because my question was going to be, do they abandon

01:41:25   Objective-C?

01:41:27   I don't see why that would be either productive or necessary, but Marco, do you think they

01:41:33   would abandon Objective-C in this hypothetical HI kit?

01:41:36   - I mean, if it's scheduled, if it's intended to be in development now and come out in like

01:41:43   a year or two, maybe.

01:41:47   But as time goes on, on a finite time scale, the longer it is from now, I think the more

01:41:55   more likely that that would be the approach.

01:41:57   But I'm not even gonna say it's unlikely even now.

01:42:02   I would say that that would be reasonable.

01:42:06   I don't think that would be overly aggressive

01:42:07   to make kit require Swift,

01:42:10   like to just have it be a Swift-only framework.

01:42:14   - That's different than saying Objective-C is gone,

01:42:15   because even if they went full Swift,

01:42:18   you have to keep the Objective-C runtime around

01:42:19   for a really, really long time,

01:42:21   because it's how Swift calls into all the other code.

01:42:24   So you know, so like, but that's not what we're talking about.

01:42:26   We're just saying like, would you have to write it in an object to see, right?

01:42:28   The one thing I think they probably will do is no 32-bit ever for whatever the hell this

01:42:34   thing is.

01:42:35   Oh, definitely.

01:42:36   No, absolutely.

01:42:37   The Mac itself, as it exists, is going to lose 32-bit probably next year, right?

01:42:39   So that's a gimme.

01:42:42   It's possible that depending on the timelines, if they switch the Mac to ARM, this could

01:42:47   be ARM only, depending on, you know, is this one year, five year, whatever, you know, that

01:42:52   timeline could coincide to simplify matters.

01:42:54   These are all low level things that really in the end

01:42:56   don't matter.

01:42:57   Like I think we're into it because you know,

01:43:00   either software developers are into software development

01:43:02   things and we're interested in the nitty gritty details.

01:43:04   But the bottom line, like the most interesting thing

01:43:06   from a consumer's perspective is Apple's plan to continue

01:43:11   to sell devices of different sizes and different forms.

01:43:14   Continuing to sell, you know, things that we call Macs,

01:43:18   things that we call iPhones, things that we call iPads,

01:43:20   things that we call watchers, all of which have different ways to interact with them.

01:43:25   Some are closer to each other than other. iPads are very similar to an iPhone, but a

01:43:28   watch is very different from both of them. And the Mac is very different from the iOS

01:43:32   devices. But there's a range of hardware devices they sell, and presumably will continue to

01:43:38   sell because they're not giving up on that range. They can make new hybrids, like Jason

01:43:43   and I talked on upgrade about an iOS laptop. There's other form factors that can be explored.

01:43:49   other one is obviously touch coming to the Mac and how that might influence things. But

01:43:53   we, and Casey mentioned Microsoft at the beginning of this topic. I think that's an important

01:43:58   lesson because Microsoft, for all its success or failure in actually pulling this off, was

01:44:04   way ahead on the thinking of, we're going to try to make one software platform that

01:44:09   lets you write applications for all sorts of different weird form factors. And so they

01:44:14   have laptops that are convertible into tablets that have touch screens on them, or they also

01:44:17   have tablets and at one time they had phones and they tried to run the whole range with

01:44:22   a single unified platform that you'd have to write different style applications for.

01:44:27   I forget what was their thing, it was like WMP or something like that. They had an acronym

01:44:31   for – UMP, I believe. Yeah, Unified Windows Platform or something.

01:44:34   Yeah, something like that. Yeah. That approach, if Apple could snap its

01:44:40   fingers and have something like that now, they would love to have it because the hard

01:44:44   work is coming up with a single framework that could span all those things. But as far

01:44:49   as consumers are concerned, the interesting part is, so can I buy a thing from Apple where

01:44:54   it runs Adobe Photoshop like the legacy version, but also I can get all the new apps, but also

01:45:01   I can touch a screen, but also it looks like a laptop? The unified Apple platform is a

01:45:08   time to make different decisions about the boundaries between these things. Like you

01:45:13   You can get rid of the Mac, iOS, whatever distinction,

01:45:15   and try to have these universal apps.

01:45:16   And we're aesthetic science economics for now.

01:45:18   That's a whole other can of worms.

01:45:19   But I think it is an opportunity to revisit

01:45:22   how those boundaries are drawn.

01:45:24   Because if you're making a new framework,

01:45:26   or a new shim type framework,

01:45:29   or whatever it is that you're doing,

01:45:31   that's an opportunity to consider

01:45:33   how could the Mac be different in ways

01:45:34   that allow you to make touch a useful interface for Macs.

01:45:38   And if you've used a Windows convertible

01:45:41   or laptop with a touchscreen or whatever,

01:45:43   you have some experience with this.

01:45:45   Microsoft is way ahead in both figuring out

01:45:48   what makes sense for touching the screens of PCs,

01:45:52   for lack of a better term,

01:45:54   and also making the frameworks that allow you to do it.

01:45:57   Apple's lucky that they just haven't been

01:45:58   particularly successful in the market with their approach,

01:46:00   but you learn by doing,

01:46:03   and Microsoft has done many different attempts at this,

01:46:07   and from all accounts,

01:46:09   time they try their new Surface whatever thing and the new operating system that

01:46:14   runs on it makes a an ever more compelling case for being open to

01:46:19   different form factors and different kinds of input instead of the sort of

01:46:24   rather rigid boundary certainly between the Mac and iOS but arguably also

01:46:28   between like you know the iOS devices of different sizes so I'm most excited from

01:46:33   a consumer perspective of seeing Apple like that's what I want out of a unified

01:46:37   thing. It's not like, yeah, the unified technical underpinnings would be awesome, but like,

01:46:41   that finally it gives the Apple the freedom to spread it, to make new variations along

01:46:48   the spectrum instead of being siloed into, "This is what a Mac's like, and this is what

01:46:52   a phone is like, and they're so different from each other, and there's no crossover,

01:46:55   and don't try to do it. No iOS laptops, no touchscreen Macs, never, never, never." If

01:47:00   it's a unified platform, there's no reason for that distinction anymore, and now they

01:47:03   could start exploring different steps along the spectrum.

01:47:06   - Yeah, I actually look forward to that

01:47:08   because I do think it's pretty clear,

01:47:10   like the industry and consumers have spoken

01:47:15   on the issue of like touch laptops

01:47:17   and as much as Apple says, this isn't a good experience,

01:47:20   nobody wants this, turns out a lot of people want it

01:47:23   and they do it anyway and they try it

01:47:24   and they touch their screens and nothing happens

01:47:26   and they get like, this is like,

01:47:29   Apple is losing that fight in actuality,

01:47:32   whether they know it or not

01:47:33   and I think they probably do know it at this point.

01:47:35   They tried one last ditch effort with touch bar

01:47:39   and giant track pads, but that's not enough.

01:47:41   That's not what people actually want.

01:47:42   What people actually want is to have to touch the screen

01:47:45   sometimes, or to be able to touch the screen sometimes.

01:47:47   That's what people are actually doing

01:47:49   and wanting and expecting.

01:47:51   So anything that gets us closer to that,

01:47:55   I think is a good direction for the Mac to take,

01:47:57   because again, the reality is this is what people are doing.

01:48:01   And a lot of this, I think, the whole idea

01:48:03   of this cross-platform UI framework needing to exist.

01:48:08   I think you've put it well, Jon, that regardless

01:48:11   of what you think people should do here,

01:48:15   a lot of Mac developers say people should just write

01:48:17   Mac apps in AppKit, and yeah, they should,

01:48:20   but they're not. (laughs)

01:48:22   The reality is very different.

01:48:23   The reality is that all the action is happening on iOS

01:48:27   in the Apple world.

01:48:30   They can't get people to care enough about the Mac

01:48:33   to develop a lot of Mac apps anymore.

01:48:35   The Mac feels increasingly like a very stale,

01:48:40   low-priority platform for a lot of developers,

01:48:43   including Apple.

01:48:45   They have to do something to make it easier

01:48:48   for people to bring Mac apps over.

01:48:50   And if they don't, we're gonna have the situation

01:48:53   we have now on the Mac that's gonna slowly worsen,

01:48:55   which is, right now, we already have tons

01:48:58   of major applications that are either,

01:49:01   that are not available on the Mac,

01:49:04   or that have really neglected low priority Mac versions,

01:49:08   like the Twitter app, you know.

01:49:10   And then we have a lot of apps that say,

01:49:13   oh, just use the web app.

01:49:15   And I'm guilty of this myself, obviously.

01:49:17   - Netflix is a great example,

01:49:19   because you can't even watch 4K Netflix on a Mac,

01:49:21   because there's no 4K support,

01:49:22   probably for some dumb copyright reason.

01:49:24   - Right, exactly, and there's so many types of apps

01:49:26   where the answer on the Mac is either,

01:49:30   eh, sorry, we don't support it,

01:49:31   or just use our web app.

01:49:33   Best case scenario for a lot of complex things like Slack,

01:49:37   you get these weird web native apps that nobody likes

01:49:40   because they're terrible in a lot of ways

01:49:42   and perform badly and use all your RAM

01:49:44   and aren't Mac-like and everything else.

01:49:46   So anything, that's the status quo, that's the reality.

01:49:50   The reality is AppKit is the past.

01:49:53   As capable as it is to the people who know it,

01:50:00   The market has said otherwise, economics have said otherwise, and people's attention has

01:50:04   said otherwise.

01:50:05   In many ways, it's similar to Swift versus Objective-C, in that Objective-C, for people

01:50:13   like me who know it really well, Swift came along and were like, "I don't need that.

01:50:19   I want to just keep using the thing I already know how to use.

01:50:21   It's totally fine."

01:50:23   But the reality was, one of the reasons they did need Swift, which we talked about at the

01:50:27   the time it came out is that Objective-C was old and crufty

01:50:32   and it turned off new developers.

01:50:35   Developers were actively avoiding writing Objective-C

01:50:38   because it was old and crufty and it didn't fit

01:50:41   modern aesthetics for programming languages.

01:50:44   AppKit has that problem as an entire API.

01:50:47   AppKit is really old and crufty and when an iOS developer

01:50:52   sees AppKit for the first time,

01:50:55   it is not a positive impression at all.

01:50:58   And as an iOS developer working through this,

01:51:01   and I know other people who've done the same thing,

01:51:03   it's like, it's really, it doesn't ever let up.

01:51:07   There are certain parts of it that,

01:51:09   when you first discover what NS Document does

01:51:11   automatically for you, you're like,

01:51:13   "Wow, this is really capable, this is awesome."

01:51:15   But there's just so much friction

01:51:17   in getting those interfaces developed.

01:51:19   And to be clear, the lower level frameworks,

01:51:22   all the audio stuff, a lot of the data types and stuff,

01:51:26   a lot of those things are already unified.

01:51:28   Like a lot of the networking, there's so much stuff

01:51:30   that is already unified between the two platforms.

01:51:33   The main area where this is necessary is the UI layer.

01:51:36   And there are just so many differences.

01:51:40   It's not like so many things work completely differently

01:51:43   between Mac OS and iOS.

01:51:45   It's a huge barrier to developing for the Mac.

01:51:48   It is so hostile and unfriendly and you can't look up

01:51:52   help on the web 'cause there's almost no results for it

01:51:57   and it's just, it's like a ghost town of old-crofted

01:52:01   unfriendliness and I know that's not like,

01:52:05   if you're familiar with it, if you're an expert

01:52:07   in AppKit, you don't see it that way.

01:52:09   But for all the rest of the iOS developers

01:52:12   who are not familiar with it, that is how it is.

01:52:15   So even though it is fine for its current developers,

01:52:19   it needs to change, because the entire world

01:52:23   has changed around it.

01:52:25   So something has to happen here, and the Mac,

01:52:28   if they gave the Mac its own completely new UI framework

01:52:31   that was not shared with anything,

01:52:33   look at what happened with tvOS.

01:52:35   tvOS had that, it had a whole new framework

01:52:37   that was mostly not UIKit, it kinda has its own stuff,

01:52:41   although it has way more in common with UIKit

01:52:43   than AppKit does.

01:52:45   And making a tvOS app is really uncompelling

01:52:49   because you have to rewrite your entire UI from scratch

01:52:51   and it's just not very good.

01:52:53   WatchOS has a similar problem.

01:52:55   WatchKit is very little like UIKit,

01:52:57   and although it's still way more like it than AppKit,

01:52:59   (laughs)

01:53:00   and making a WatchKit app is really not compelling

01:53:03   because these are smaller usage platforms.

01:53:06   The iPad is a great example,

01:53:08   and I think probably, honestly,

01:53:10   a big part of why this kind of thing might be done.

01:53:12   On the iPad, you know, Jon, you said earlier,

01:53:16   you don't get an iPad app for free,

01:53:18   but you do get it for cheap.

01:53:20   Like, if you have an iPhone app,

01:53:23   to port it to the iPad is effort,

01:53:25   but it's not a ton of effort.

01:53:27   It's nowhere near the amount of effort.

01:53:29   - Yeah, 'cause it uses the same UI framework,

01:53:30   but then to make a good iPad app,

01:53:33   you have to redesign some part of it.

01:53:34   - Yeah, but it's like, you know,

01:53:36   like Overcast's iPad app is used by something

01:53:38   like 5% or less of people.

01:53:40   I use it every day, but most people don't use it.

01:53:42   But it's about 5% extra work to do it also,

01:53:47   so it was worth it to me.

01:53:49   And yeah, it could be better than it is.

01:53:51   It could be more iPad optimized, but it doesn't need to be.

01:53:54   Like right now, it's fine on the iPad.

01:53:56   There's no glaring shortcomings with it.

01:53:58   It's totally fine.

01:53:59   And it didn't need to be that much work,

01:54:02   and it isn't that much of a maintenance headache ongoing.

01:54:04   If the Mac can be anywhere near that,

01:54:07   I don't expect the Mac to be as easy to port to.

01:54:12   - Yeah, it's gonna be harder 'cause you got menus

01:54:13   and all of that, and no touch interface, right?

01:54:16   - Right, so it's not gonna be the same.

01:54:17   It's not gonna be as easy as porting

01:54:19   from, you know, to the iPad from iPhone.

01:54:22   But if it can be somewhere near that,

01:54:26   if it can be like only three times harder

01:54:29   instead of 20 times harder, like that's a huge, huge gain.

01:54:33   That could lead to so many more Mac apps.

01:54:37   And honestly, as you said John, honestly I think,

01:54:40   I'm not sure the Mac has much of a choice.

01:54:43   Because the reality is that if they don't do something

01:54:46   like this, it's just going to keep stagnating

01:54:49   and it will die.

01:54:50   That is it.

01:54:51   That is the future of the Mac.

01:54:52   It has no future if they don't find a way to make it easier

01:54:56   to develop apps for the Mac if you already have

01:54:59   an iOS code base.

01:55:00   - Well the other way to have a future is to sell

01:55:02   100 times more Macs, but that's a tall order.

01:55:05   - Yeah.

01:55:06   Like if you could suddenly sell as many Macs as you sell iPhones, this problem takes care

01:55:09   of itself and people just continue to write an app kit and you're fine.

01:55:11   But that's not the reality.

01:55:12   Right, exactly.

01:55:14   So one more technical thing on this.

01:55:17   This is not likely, but I like thinking about ways you could possibly get this win.

01:55:22   Another problem Apple has with its platforms, arguably, and we can debate what the causes

01:55:28   are, but there's a lot of applications, a lot of very sophisticated, very powerful applications

01:55:34   are only available on the Mac.

01:55:36   And Apple would love for those applications

01:55:38   to be available on iOS devices,

01:55:40   but for a variety of reasons, that's not always the case.

01:55:43   Now, if you make a unified UI framework,

01:55:46   depending on how you do it,

01:55:47   we talked about a shim layer that lets you basically write

01:55:49   with a UI kit like API,

01:55:51   but that calls AppKit stuff under the covers

01:55:53   as a quicker way to let people reuse some of their code

01:55:55   and skills to write Mac applications,

01:55:57   you could make something like that in the reverse direction

01:56:01   that lets someone take a complicated, sophisticated Mac

01:56:05   application and allow it to run on iOS with some changes

01:56:10   to make it work for touch.

01:56:12   I'm sure Apple--

01:56:14   I mean, I don't know if Apple is frustrated by this,

01:56:16   but I know a lot of users are frustrated by the fact

01:56:18   that there's no Photoshop for the iPad, right?

01:56:20   Adobe makes a Photoshop for the iPad,

01:56:22   but it's not Photoshop Photoshop.

01:56:24   It's like Adobe makes a bunch of applications

01:56:26   that try to play to the strengths of the iOS platform,

01:56:28   but none of them are full-fledged Photoshop.

01:56:30   and there are other companies trying to pick up that slack.

01:56:32   They say, "Fine, Adobe, you're not gonna do it."

01:56:34   - Trust me, you don't want Adobe

01:56:35   to port Photoshop to the iPad.

01:56:37   - I know, I'm just saying like, capability-wise,

01:56:38   like Affinity makes a bunch of great applications,

01:56:40   and what's the other one, the other well-known one?

01:56:43   - There's Pixelmator, Pixelmator Pro, Affinity, Acorn,

01:56:46   a whole lot of good ones.

01:56:47   - Yeah, there's a lot of applications that are targeting it,

01:56:49   but there's still a lot of sophisticated applications

01:56:52   that are only on the Mac, and you say,

01:56:53   "Well, it's because the Mac is powerful enough,"

01:56:55   and so on and so forth, like all the excuses

01:56:56   for why those are only on Mac eventually will come down to,

01:56:58   "Well, it's written in this framework

01:57:00   that doesn't run on iOS and we're not going to rewrite our whole application because it's

01:57:03   really big and complicated. I mean, the only companies that can afford to do stuff like

01:57:07   that are Microsoft and even their iOS versions are, you know, Microsoft Word and Excel kind

01:57:12   of in name only, like they're very different. If you can have a way to make a unified framework

01:57:18   in Shimlayer or something or other that lets a bunch of Mac developers with some amount

01:57:25   of work that is less than rewriting their entire application, which is, you know, it's

01:57:28   pretty easy to hit that bar. Some smaller amount of work than rewrite everything in

01:57:31   UIKit. Let them sell their well-known, well-established, extremely powerful application for the new

01:57:38   27-inch iPad Pro. That is a compelling case, and it solves Mac developers' problems in

01:57:44   that, well, now suddenly you can address this market with your skills that you have, right?

01:57:49   But that's not why Apple cares about that, because they'll just let those Mac developers

01:57:51   retire and die, whatever, who cares? It solves the problem Apple has, which is, "Hey, we

01:57:56   would really like it if we could get way more expensive, powerful applications on iOS. Apple's

01:58:01   been trying that for a long time. That's why the iPad Pro exists. And it is happening. It is

01:58:05   happening slowly. But one way to get a nice boost of complicated, powerful applications is if you

01:58:11   could somehow make that happen. Now, I think that is not a big enough upside for people to undertake

01:58:16   this. It kind of goes against what we're trying to get people to do is to get people to stop writing

01:58:20   an app kit and who cares about the 10 Mac developers compared to the, you know, thousand

01:58:25   X number of them that are on the other platform. So I don't think this will happen. But for

01:58:29   the briefest moment, I had the idea of like all our greatest and favorite Mac applications

01:58:35   suddenly having cool iOS versions and making iOS a more powerful platform and giving new

01:58:41   life to Mac developers. But I think that is extremely unlikely, but it gives me a warm

01:58:46   fuzzy to think about it.

01:58:48   So one final question, because I can't help myself.

01:58:53   Let's assume for the sake of discussion that there's a fairly complete break.

01:59:02   And it's not just a shim, it's a completely new HI kit.

01:59:07   Do you think that Apple would follow the same delegation everywhere pattern that UI kit

01:59:13   has today?

01:59:15   And I'm trying to think of a way to summarize delegation easily, and I can't think of a

01:59:18   great one, but—

01:59:19   You want it to all be reactive?

01:59:21   Well, that's exactly what I'm driving at.

01:59:23   And maybe reactive—

01:59:24   AppKit has delegates all over the place, too.

01:59:25   Is that what you're comparing it to?

01:59:27   Delegation—AppKit-style, I would say—delegation, as compared to React-style stuff?

01:59:32   Well, like functional reactive programming.

01:59:35   It doesn't have to be FRP.

01:59:36   It doesn't have to be RxSwift, necessarily.

01:59:38   But like anything that's more modern than delegation, even just closures everywhere,

01:59:44   Which I—admittedly, Apple is moving toward, but like, something more modern than delegation.

01:59:49   Do you think that it would be a slight step forward, such as closures everywhere?

01:59:56   Or do you think it would be a whole hog, like, we're going to just burn the world down and

02:00:00   build it anew, let's go all in on something along the lines of functional reactive programming?

02:00:05   And maybe that's not the actual answer, but something that dramatic.

02:00:09   Do you think that it would be something that big, this hypothetical HI kit?

02:00:13   or do you think it would be something much closer to a shim?

02:00:17   And let me start with Marco on this.

02:00:19   - It's gonna be all cocoa bindings.

02:00:21   - Oh, God.

02:00:22   (laughing)

02:00:23   - No, I mean, I don't honestly,

02:00:24   like I'm not hugely into the whole reactive thing.

02:00:28   I kind of do my own thing with that, but of course.

02:00:32   So I'm not entirely convinced

02:00:36   that that is the inevitable forward place to go.

02:00:39   - But whatever the answer be.

02:00:41   So, if you, just the larger question of like,

02:00:44   would they fundamentally change like,

02:00:46   design patterns of the way they do UI frameworks.

02:00:49   - Exactly.

02:00:50   - It depends on like, do they wanna also

02:00:54   like blow up iOS as well?

02:00:57   Because if the idea of this is to

02:00:59   make developing for the Mac more like iOS,

02:01:03   then no, they shouldn't move on in such a major way

02:01:07   because that isn't how iOS works.

02:01:10   But if the goal of this is to be like the next generation

02:01:13   unified UI framework for all of their platforms,

02:01:18   possibly making it Swift only,

02:01:20   then sure, that would make sense.

02:01:21   Like it would make the most sense to design it in a way

02:01:26   that takes maximum advantage and fits in best

02:01:29   with the design of the Swift language,

02:01:32   which would come with lots of changes

02:01:35   that don't work the same way.

02:01:36   'Cause like so much of AppKit and UIKit

02:01:39   is based on the way Objective-C works

02:01:42   and is designed because it was always the language.

02:01:46   It was designed with that in mind

02:01:47   and it was designed with a lot of Objective-C idioms

02:01:49   and things that work very well with Objective-C.

02:01:53   With Swift, there's a lot of weird friction

02:01:54   when you try to, when you use UIKit

02:01:58   and a lot of Apple frameworks from Swift,

02:02:00   you can tell this really wasn't designed for this

02:02:03   and it's not as good as it could be

02:02:05   or it doesn't quite fit in right,

02:02:07   doesn't feel right or is not as graceful as it could be.

02:02:10   So if they're gonna move forward and make this

02:02:13   like the new Swift only thing that is our modern answer,

02:02:17   like this is gonna be for the next 15 years framework,

02:02:21   then yeah, change a lot to make it more Swift-like.

02:02:24   Not necessarily functional reactive, I don't, you know.

02:02:27   - Sure, sure.

02:02:28   - But just make it more Swift-like,

02:02:29   you know, make it ideal for Swift.

02:02:31   But if they're going for, let's make it as easy as possible

02:02:34   for existing iOS developers to also make Mac apps,

02:02:37   then not necessarily.

02:02:40   - So you have to, I think, look at,

02:02:43   when you talk about UIKit,

02:02:44   and even AppKit for that matter,

02:02:46   any framework like that that lives for a long time evolves,

02:02:50   and you can see, as you look down through the layers

02:02:52   of how things have changed.

02:02:55   As Casey pointed out before,

02:02:58   before closures were a thing,

02:03:01   everything was straight up delegation,

02:03:03   And then suddenly when closures were a thing,

02:03:05   even setting aside Swift, it was like,

02:03:06   oh, now a bunch of new APIs are coming,

02:03:09   take a callback, right?

02:03:10   And they take a closure as an argument.

02:03:12   And that becomes a pattern that you start to see.

02:03:13   You don't see it everywhere.

02:03:15   The old APIs don't have it,

02:03:16   but they introduce new APIs that do have it.

02:03:18   And so, you know, each new year WWDC,

02:03:22   the framework that you knew slowly changes and evolves.

02:03:26   Whatever the next framework is,

02:03:28   the most conservative answer is,

02:03:32   take whatever the current best thinking about UIKit is.

02:03:36   Not like make it like UIKit exactly,

02:03:38   because there are parts of UIKit that

02:03:40   have been updated to use the current best thinking.

02:03:43   And you know, Closure is an example of like--

02:03:45   and that happens to fit with Swift,

02:03:46   because it's native support for that,

02:03:48   and you don't have to use the stupid block

02:03:50   syntax and all of that stuff.

02:03:52   But make all of the new APIs use the current best thinking.

02:03:56   And I don't think that actually entirely precludes

02:04:01   larger change because if you keep doing that like over time we introduce new

02:04:06   API's with new thinking and there's a new language in the mix and it evolves

02:04:09   and evolves and evolves eventually you get to deprecate or just never use the

02:04:13   really old really weird API's so if your starting point is the current best

02:04:19   modern thinking UI kit with maybe some minor tweaks you get a lot of the

02:04:23   benefit of people being who are familiar with the UI kit being able to use that

02:04:26   because people who are familiar with UI kit presumably are somewhat up-to-date

02:04:29   date on it and don't say, "I only know how to use the UI Kit API as introduced in iOS

02:04:34   2, and I never learn anything after, and I don't know what a closure is, and I'm really

02:04:38   confused, right? I don't know anything about all these property syntax and all this animation

02:04:42   stuff that's all tint colors, I don't know what that is." Of course they have to know,

02:04:45   they have to know the modern ones too. So if that's your starting point, you can bring

02:04:49   those people along. Now with the whole React to thing, it's like, that's not something

02:04:52   you can gradually add, that's kind of a paradigm shift, and that is a tougher sell. But even

02:04:57   you could pitch that to, you know, pretend the Mac doesn't exist and it's just UIKit.

02:05:02   Eventually in the lifetime of UIKit, if the thinking inside Apple is that there's a better way to design UIs with, you know,

02:05:08   whatever reactive paradigm or whatever, some functional thing or something entirely different,

02:05:13   they could roll that out just in UIKit to say, "A bunch of new APIs are going to be using this thing,

02:05:18   and we have a new view system, and we're, you know..."

02:05:21   Mac has had multiple view systems, even on Mac OS X.

02:05:24   It has multiple, you know, it had carbon and it had cocoa and they coexisted for a while

02:05:28   and one of them faded away.

02:05:29   It's not impossible to have two paradigms in the same platform and slowly transition

02:05:33   to another one.

02:05:34   So I don't think anything Apple does precludes switching to something better.

02:05:38   But I think the main reason that they won't is, or two reasons.

02:05:41   One, I'm not, I don't think Apple is convinced that there is a better paradigm.

02:05:47   Casey may be convinced, but convinced that like there is a better paradigm that is better

02:05:51   enough to take the hit for it and B, like they can defer that.

02:05:57   They can say, use the current best thinking in UIKit plus whatever the current best thing

02:06:01   that we don't know about is that they're doing inside Apple, right?

02:06:03   Because there's always something every year, right?

02:06:06   And make that the starting point of your new framework and then go from there.

02:06:10   And I don't, we're going to wrap this up because we're running long, but one final thing that

02:06:13   I think is worth voicing, especially from the concerns of Mac users, I mentioned photos

02:06:17   apps and how they feel kind of weird.

02:06:20   That's another way that this can all go wrong.

02:06:22   No matter what solution they use, if it lets experienced iOS developers target the Mac,

02:06:30   but the applications they create are all like photos, essentially, like that they feel weird

02:06:35   and non-Mac-like and are unsatisfying, I don't think that will be a very big success.

02:06:42   Because as few Mac users as there may be, and even Mac users who have no idea what it

02:06:47   means to be "Mac-like." People who have no idea what Electron is or no idea what

02:06:54   makes Slack weird, they feel the friction and the weirdness even if they can't identify

02:07:00   it, even with something like Chrome versus Safari. I think that's a real thing that

02:07:04   people can feel, and I think the Mac enthusiasts are actually an important subset of the Mac

02:07:13   market at a proportion of their, of their, the money that they give or whatever, right?

02:07:17   It's the whole reason the Mac Pro exists, or will exist eventually.

02:07:22   And I think that is a really, it's going to be one of the hardest things to avoid.

02:07:27   Yes, let people retarget their skills to the Mac, but how, how are you going to get them

02:07:32   to make applications that are satisfying Mac applications?

02:07:36   That's a really tall order, both because iOS users don't know how to make a satisfying

02:07:40   Mac application because they never have before, and because a lot of things you can do to

02:07:44   make it easier for them lead them down the path to an application that is like an iOS

02:07:49   application that you can use a mouse cursor with. And that's no good. That's no good,

02:07:54   boss. Well, but I would argue it's better than not having these apps. Is it, though?

02:07:58   Like, that's what I'm saying. I don't know if it's better than not having the apps. Like,

02:08:00   is it better than just letting the Mac platform die? I would rather have a good native 27-inch

02:08:05   iPad Pro application than a bad iOS port

02:08:09   to a 27-inch iMac, you know what I mean?

02:08:12   - Sure, well, but keep in mind,

02:08:14   whatever Mac apps are in practice

02:08:18   is what ends up being the good Mac apps.

02:08:22   It ends up being the standard.

02:08:24   I really don't think we have a choice here.

02:08:26   I think something like this has to happen

02:08:28   to keep the Mac alive, and so if what ends up being

02:08:31   most Mac apps people use, if those are more iOS-y,

02:08:35   that will just become what it feels like

02:08:39   to be a standard Mac app.

02:08:41   - And that's not, I said that, I was getting at that before,

02:08:44   what it means to be Mac-like, but I'm just talking about

02:08:45   like just straight up performance, like that they feel

02:08:48   laggy and slow and not powerful, like that they don't have

02:08:53   the features, one part is the features, and the second is

02:08:55   that they're slow and weird, and is it because they're slow

02:08:58   and weird because of the shim layer, and are they missing

02:09:00   features that we expect from a Mac app because they're an iOS port and those features don't

02:09:04   fit or don't make sense on iOS, that's what I'm talking about.

02:09:08   And you're totally right to be super concerned about that by using Photos app as the example

02:09:13   of a cross-platform framework. But the reason why Photos app on the Mac is slow and weird

02:09:18   and doesn't feel right and it lacks so many features and drives you nuts is because it

02:09:23   is a terribly designed app on so many levels and horribly neglected all the time. So it's

02:09:30   It starts out with a bad design, they never change it,

02:09:33   they never make it better.

02:09:34   In your explanation during our famous episode number 223,

02:09:38   Throw the Fork Away, was so great, so perfect.

02:09:42   The Photos app is a terrible example

02:09:44   of how to do cross-platform frameworks.

02:09:46   It happens to be built on a cross-platform framework,

02:09:49   but it is a terrible design,

02:09:51   and that has nothing to do with the framework.

02:09:53   It has everything to do with the actual UI design,

02:09:56   the flow of the app, the things like--

02:09:59   - I don't think it has to do with the framework

02:10:00   - No.

02:10:01   - The flow in the UI design is inherited in large part

02:10:04   from how Photos works in iOS,

02:10:06   and then they just added a couple little sidebars

02:10:08   here and there?

02:10:09   Like it feels like an iOS application in design-wise.

02:10:12   - No, definitely not.

02:10:13   It is entirely because that is a very badly designed app.

02:10:18   It's designed by people who don't use it

02:10:20   the way anybody else uses it, if at all,

02:10:22   and it is designed to look good in demos,

02:10:25   not to actually be used by human beings.

02:10:28   That is not a problem with the framework,

02:10:29   if that's a problem with the design of it.

02:10:31   It is slow and cumbersome, not because it copies iOS stuff,

02:10:36   but because it has too many modes

02:10:38   and too many slow animations

02:10:40   and it lacks convenient keyboard shortcuts.

02:10:42   - But I'm getting it.

02:10:43   It has those modes because photos on iOS

02:10:45   has to have the modes because you don't have the room

02:10:47   on the screen for all that stuff.

02:10:48   So think about when you go to crop on photos.

02:10:50   You gotta hit the little crop icon

02:10:51   or you go to color or light,

02:10:52   then you got all the sub-menus

02:10:54   and you eventually dig your way down to the feature you want

02:10:56   and it's a lot of taps.

02:10:57   And why is it a lot of taps?

02:10:58   you're on a phone. You don't have room to have that stuff visible all the time. But

02:11:01   you take that UI paradigm and you bring it to the Mac and it's still a lot of taps.

02:11:06   You're like, "Why are you making this a lot of taps?" Like, "Well, this is sort of how

02:11:09   the code base works and we kind of added a sidebar here and there, but we didn't want

02:11:13   to change too much." Like, isn't that the whole thing? We don't have to change too much

02:11:15   and we get a Mac application out of it? And it's like, you should have changed more.

02:11:19   That isn't the whole thing. Like, first of all, the fact that they use something called

02:11:22   like UX collection view doesn't make the design bad. The fact that their views are using UX

02:11:28   instead of NSColor and UI color,

02:11:30   that doesn't, like, that's what we're asking for here,

02:11:33   is like, give us like, stock widgets and stuff

02:11:35   that we can use in both places.

02:11:36   But the actual interface layout,

02:11:40   and the choices they made with all these different modes

02:11:41   and everything, that's just a bad design for the Mac, period.

02:11:45   And that has nothing to do with the framework.

02:11:47   That is entirely to do with laziness and bad design.

02:11:49   - But no, it doesn't have to do with the framework,

02:11:51   it has to do with the fact that the code base

02:11:53   came from an iOS app.

02:11:55   You started with an iOS app, and you're like,

02:11:56   I would like this app on the Mac.

02:11:57   So you start with that code base,

02:11:59   and that code base works the way it works on the phone.

02:12:01   And so you don't want it completely,

02:12:03   like you're motivated not to change too much about it.

02:12:07   So it's, yeah, it's not the framework.

02:12:08   It's not the fact that if you had written it from scratch

02:12:10   with the same framework as a Mac app, you would be fine.

02:12:13   But my fear, what I'm getting at here,

02:12:15   is that people have iOS applications

02:12:17   that they want to essentially port to the Mac.

02:12:19   And they're not starting from scratch

02:12:21   and figuring out how to make a good Mac app.

02:12:23   They're starting from their iOS app

02:12:25   and mutating it until they feel like,

02:12:27   eh, it's more or less a Mac app.

02:12:29   And so the Photos app feels like the iOS Photos app

02:12:32   mutated just enough to masquerade as a Mac application.

02:12:36   And you're totally right,

02:12:37   that's not the fault of the framework.

02:12:39   It's not the fault of even UXKit or anything like that.

02:12:41   It is the fault of the fact that it is essentially a port

02:12:45   and that you start with one code base and you change it

02:12:47   and you don't start over from scratch, right?

02:12:51   And we're going way too long here,

02:12:52   but one of the things that Craig Hockenberry

02:12:54   was pointing out about like Twitterific, where Icon Factory wrote their own framework to

02:12:59   basically be UIKit on the Mac. What was it called, Chameleon or something?

02:13:02   Yep. All right. So they have experience doing that.

02:13:05   Hey, let's write a framework on the Mac, but the APIs all look like UIKit. They did that.

02:13:09   And they also did, let's make a Mac version of an iOS application, and we'll do it by

02:13:15   cleanly and slightly painfully because, you know, programmers aren't perfect, separating

02:13:19   the internals from the externals, which all programmers are supposed to be doing, but

02:13:24   until you actually try to separate them with a big scissor, you realize how much your crap

02:13:27   has leaked into each other, like, that's life, right?

02:13:30   And according to Craig, the second approach, for them anyway, worked better for Twitterrific,

02:13:36   where what they reused across the iOS and the Mac app is all the faceless stuff. But

02:13:41   the UI for the Mac app is written totally from scratch. The only part that's shared

02:13:47   is the inside. Now, they wrote it from -- I don't even know what they used. They could

02:13:50   have written it from scratch using, you know, the chameleon thing. They could have written

02:13:53   scratch using AppKit. They could have written them from scratch using a hypothetical HI

02:13:56   kit, but the point is they wrote it from scratch. They didn't take the interface from the phone,

02:14:02   port it, and start tweaking it. But that, I think, will be a temptation, sort of the

02:14:08   equivalent of shovelware. That will be a temptation if Apple does a good job making that easy.

02:14:11   And in fact, Apple will demo that. "Look, I went from your phone application and then

02:14:14   I just moved two things around and added a sidebar and set up a few menu items. Voila,

02:14:18   Mac app and I'm gonna say no not a not a Mac app. Thanks to our sponsors this week

02:14:25   Casper, Squarespace and HelloFresh. We will see you next week.

02:14:30   Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin

02:14:35   'Cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental

02:14:40   John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

02:14:46   'Cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental

02:14:51   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

02:14:56   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

02:15:06   So that's Casey List M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

02:15:10   N-T-M-A-R-C-O-R-M-N S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A

02:15:18   It's accidental (It's accidental)

02:15:21   They didn't mean to, accidental (accidental)

02:15:27   Tech podcast so long

02:15:31   Good thing so much stuff happened in the uh...

02:15:34   Seven days ago.

02:15:35   Yeah, exactly.

02:15:36   So Marco, you said you had watched the first two episodes of The Grand Tour?

02:15:41   I have, yeah. You know what? It's pretty good.

02:15:45   I feel like the in-studio segments are slightly less garbage-y than they were last season.

02:15:54   Oh yeah, to clarify, I skipped those.

02:15:56   But still pretty bad.

02:15:59   Not like, I don't skip like the little bumpers to their segment,

02:16:02   but like when they like sit down with a celebrity or something, I skip that.

02:16:04   But I always did that with the BBC show also.

02:16:08   Yeah. The BBC show, the in-studio segments were pretty decent, if not good. But man, the grand tour

02:16:18   in the studio is bad. Outside of the studio, I think the films where they're actually out in the

02:16:24   world doing things, I think those are 80 to 90% of what they were for Top Gear. And I'm trying very

02:16:30   hard not to spoil anything directly for Jon, but my goodness, the studio stuff is just nothing. I

02:16:36   I feel like all I'm doing is cringing

02:16:39   the entire time they're in the studio.

02:16:41   - Oh, absolutely, yeah, no question.

02:16:43   The studio stuff is still,

02:16:44   it is as cringe-worthy as it was in season one.

02:16:47   But season two, episodes one and two,

02:16:50   if you skip the studio long parts

02:16:53   and you just pay attention to the rest of the film segments,

02:16:56   I'd say it's very good, very fun.

02:16:58   And the last few seasons of Top Gear that they were on,

02:17:02   there was a bit of a decline in those, too.

02:17:06   And I would say the current season of,

02:17:08   whatever this is, "Grand Tour,"

02:17:10   is on par with or better than the last few seasons

02:17:15   of Top Gear they did.

02:17:17   - I think that's fair.

02:17:18   - You know, one of the Insta-Doo segments

02:17:19   that I actually kinda liked, and I think is the strength

02:17:22   that they should be leaning on in "Grand Tour,"

02:17:24   but in season one, apparently they did not.

02:17:26   I always like the news segments,

02:17:28   because I guess it's the most like a podcast.

02:17:30   Like, they would have a little TV screen up there

02:17:33   to show an image, and they'd be like,

02:17:34   "Just quick hits on the news."

02:17:36   "Oh, you know, Volkswagen's coming out with a new car.

02:17:38   What do you think of this?"

02:17:39   And they all just have something snarky to say about it,

02:17:41   in much the same way we do on a podcast.

02:17:43   What do you think of the news today?

02:17:44   And they talk about it, right?

02:17:45   And there's no celebrity involved.

02:17:46   And you can't say they're not trying to be funny,

02:17:48   'cause they are, they're trying to be funny.

02:17:49   And very often the snarky lines

02:17:50   were written ahead of time, clearly, right?

02:17:52   Like it wasn't all spontaneous or whatever,

02:17:54   but that lets them be them in a way,

02:17:57   in the same way that they would out of the studio,

02:18:00   just sort of joking around with each other

02:18:02   about a topic that they all have strong feelings about.

02:18:04   you think all Porsche 911s look the same, you are into trucks, you are like whatever,

02:18:08   like their personalities and enthusiasm for cars, which you know is my always big thing with Top Gear,

02:18:13   comes through in those segments. And they're studio segments and they're fine.

02:18:17   And even some of the celebrity ones, depending on the celebrity, passable, but anything where it's

02:18:21   like, we're not going to talk about car news, we're not going to talk about cars, we're not

02:18:25   going to talk to a celebrity, we're going to do like a funny skit with each other, did not work

02:18:31   in the green drawer. Because what's left then? Then it's just a bunch of people who are like,

02:18:38   "Oh, they're trying to be Saturday Night Live?" Very often, they'd be trying to make a joke.

02:18:41   They'd be like, "Huh? Huh? Isn't that funny?" And they'd be making fun of children with cancer.

02:18:46   And it'd be like, "No, it's not funny." But it was funny when I was a boy in 1942. It's like,

02:18:52   just guys. You can't talk to somebody before you do these segments. Or whatever the one where they

02:18:59   they were making fun of gay people or eating ice cream or something, it's like, just talk

02:19:04   to one person before you plan a 15 minute segment that you think is going to be hilarious.

02:19:10   It's not, and it's no good.

02:19:13   There's a lot more of that.

02:19:14   It's definitely like older dudes who think that some of this stuff is funny and it's

02:19:20   just not funny anymore.

02:19:21   And the other thing, on the second episode, maybe they talked about it in the first, but

02:19:27   And the second episode was the first time they really did a hot lap, if I recall correctly.

02:19:32   And they have ditched the American and they said something like, "Yeah, well, you know,

02:19:36   it didn't really work out and nobody liked it."

02:19:38   And so there was at least a modicum of like self-awareness there.

02:19:42   But they bring on a woman, some woman, and they say, "She's a really great driver.

02:19:49   And the reason I haven't named this woman is because they didn't name her."

02:19:53   Like, did you watch this, Marco?

02:19:55   Did you notice that as well?

02:19:56   Yeah, she was like the new Stig kind of, but that was, I assume that was part of some kind

02:20:02   of bit that's going to play out over time, but I thought that was weird too.

02:20:05   It just seemed like, I don't know if inappropriate is the right word, but just not funny.

02:20:12   It seemed like, you know, 50 plus year old guys trying to be funny in a way that in the

02:20:18   year almost 2018 really isn't funny anymore.

02:20:22   And I don't think this is me being like a stick in the mud.

02:20:25   I don't think this is me being a social justice warrior.

02:20:29   I'm trying to be better about being aware of these sorts of things.

02:20:34   So now that I am more aware of these sorts of things, when they don't name this woman

02:20:40   driver, they praised her, but they don't name her.

02:20:43   It's just like, "Come on, guys.

02:20:46   Really?

02:20:47   This is really a thing?"

02:20:48   And just like you said, Jon, nobody told you this was not cool.

02:20:52   Nobody?

02:20:53   Not a one.

02:20:54   said that this was not cool. And so I've never fast-forwarded on an

02:21:00   initial viewing. I've never fast-forwarded any of Top Gear or The Grand Tour.

02:21:04   Oh, you're missing out. Well, that's the thing. I was about to say I am paying

02:21:09   less and less and less attention to the in-studio segments. That being said, the

02:21:15   the films I thought were really good, particularly this last one. And again, I'm

02:21:20   I'm trying not to spoil it, but it involves

02:21:23   Marco and John's either current or old stomping grounds.

02:21:27   That one I thought was really good and enjoyable.

02:21:30   So the films are great, but golly, the studio stuff,

02:21:35   I'm running out of patience for it.

02:21:37   - There is no question in my mind

02:21:39   that if the show was just the films,

02:21:42   and each episode was like, I guess it'd be

02:21:44   like 20 minutes long or 25 minutes long

02:21:45   instead of like an hour, if it was just that,

02:21:49   it would be a better show.

02:21:51   - I mean, I'm looking forward to the rest of the episodes

02:21:54   from this season, but I might do the unthinkable

02:21:58   in "Pulamarko" and just skip the in-studio segments,

02:22:01   'cause, oh boy.

02:22:03   - I give you permission.

02:22:04   It is a much more enjoyable show if you do that.

02:22:06   (laughing)

02:22:08   (beeping)

02:22:10   - All right, so we got some titles here.

02:22:17   some good ones this week. As I get older, I guess worse. Yeah, that's pretty good. I

02:22:21   like Hotbox with Knobs. Hotbox with Knobs is good. Those little boxes, does the USB

02:22:26   Pre 2 get hot? No. Let me see. Nope. Not at all. Not even the slightest. My description

02:22:32   is not, I've never had one of those boxes, I just assumed they got hot, but. No. Hotbox,

02:22:36   Hotbox, you guys don't know that movie, do you? Nope. Casey should watch it. Marco might

02:22:40   like it. Yeah, my final vote is either for Old or Worse or Hotbox with Knobs. Hmm, I

02:22:47   - I think I'm both.

02:22:48   Hotbox with knobs definitely has a musical ring to it

02:22:50   and seems like an ATP title,

02:22:52   but now that I learned the boxes don't get hot,

02:22:55   I like it less.

02:22:55   (laughing)

02:22:58   - I mean, some of them do, like the shitty ones do.

02:23:01   - Well, speaking of shitty ones,

02:23:02   does your shit stuff get hot?

02:23:04   - Oh my God, yes.

02:23:05   (laughing)

02:23:06   - See, there we go.

02:23:08   You do have some hotboxes with knobs, all right.

02:23:10   - Yeah, 'cause it's like a, you know,

02:23:11   it's a class A, B amp.

02:23:13   The smaller ones, like I had one that was a class A.

02:23:15   My God, even just a headphone amp that's Class A,

02:23:18   gets ridiculously hot.

02:23:20   - Yeah, that puts Hotbox with knobs over the top.

02:23:23   Fantastic Mr. Fox, watch it.

02:23:25   Watch it with the kids, it's a good kid movie.

02:23:28   Even Declan might like it.

02:23:29   - You've heard of this.

02:23:30   - And then you'll see where I am saying to recommend that

02:23:32   because Hotbox features in the movie.

02:23:35   - Isn't that a euphemism for farting in bed, isn't it?

02:23:37   - Yes.

02:23:39   I'm glad you caught that as well.

02:23:41   - That's not just Hotbox, it's--

02:23:44   - Is it also like when you smoke pot in the car

02:23:46   with the windows up?

02:23:47   - What do you call it?

02:23:48   Dutch oven?

02:23:49   Come on, chat room.

02:23:51   - No, you're right, you're right.

02:23:53   - We don't need to go to the chat room

02:23:54   for fart confirmation.

02:23:55   Casey is there with the--

02:23:57   - Oh, when it comes to farts,

02:23:58   I know what I'm talking about.

02:24:00   - That was a title for you.

02:24:01   (laughing)

02:24:03   - Do farts ever stop being funny?

02:24:06   I don't think so.

02:24:07   - Well, 'cause humor is rooted in just like,

02:24:09   what makes people uncomfortable in a certain way.

02:24:14   And like farts are just so against the facade

02:24:18   that we are not animals.

02:24:19   We are like civilized people.

02:24:22   And then like this bad smelling gas comes out of our butts.

02:24:24   Like that's going to be funny.

02:24:26   - Who'd have thunk it?

02:24:26   - And like it's so taboo and it makes the whole room

02:24:30   smell bad for like 10 minutes.

02:24:32   And so it's like that's always gonna be funny

02:24:35   across all cultures, across all times

02:24:37   because we try so hard to pretend like we're not animals

02:24:40   with butts and poop and stuff.

02:24:42   and then this reminds us.

02:24:44   Anyway, that's my theory on farts.

02:24:46   Good thing we're still live.

02:24:48   - Good talk.

02:24:49   - Yeah.

02:24:50   - Good talk.

02:24:51   - You should make an app about that.

02:24:52   I hear they're all the rage.

02:24:53   - Yeah, right.

02:24:54   [ Silence ]