253: I Think I Ordered One


00:00:00   I feel like our world is a little upside down.

00:00:02   Did you roll over in your Wrangler?

00:00:04   No, I didn't roll over my Wrangler, but we're gonna talk about that.

00:00:07   [Music]

00:00:08   Since you brought it up, I guess we can just start with follow-up,

00:00:11   and coincidentally in the very first item in follow-up, we have more Wrangler talk to have.

00:00:14   Awesome.

00:00:15   First of all, I wanted to publicly commend both Jon and Marco for Jon giving Marco

00:00:22   the material with which to make a truly hilarious pre-show.

00:00:26   And I had several people very kindly reach out to say,

00:00:29   "Oh my god, John was on fire." Well, oftentimes it was "John was on fire beating you up."

00:00:35   But at the very least it was "John was on fire."

00:00:37   I wasn't beating you up. But that's the whole thing. Like, first of all, you brought the

00:00:40   topic of the show and said, "I have a problem. I'm thinking about a wrangler." So it's like,

00:00:45   you're saying, "Convince me not to get a wrangler." And so I was trying to do what you asked.

00:00:49   That's not a problem. Like, if you're saying, "I'm into thinking about a deep wrangler," but

00:00:55   you phrased it as like a problem situation.

00:00:58   Like if you were really enthusiastic about it,

00:00:59   saying like, "Look, I've decided to make a life change.

00:01:02   "I have found who I really am now,

00:01:04   "and who I really am is a Jeep Wrangler person,"

00:01:07   like we would have been supportive of you as your friends.

00:01:09   - Can I, if I get a Wrangler, if I end up with a Wrangler,

00:01:11   can I try to find a license plate that's T-O-P-L-I-S-S?

00:01:16   - No, you are not allowed to do that.

00:01:18   - Come on.

00:01:19   - You are not allowed to have a giant list pun

00:01:20   for the rest of your life.

00:01:21   - Oh, come on.

00:01:22   - No.

00:01:23   - Anyway, so we have some follow-up with regards to,

00:01:26   Oh no, you distracted me. I was trying to compliment you two and you've distracted me.

00:01:30   So anyway, Marco did a very good job editing down 30 minutes of garbage into eight minutes

00:01:34   of pure comedy gold that was mostly on account of John giving Marco the raw material with

00:01:39   which to carve comedy gold out of it. So thank you to the two of you. Even though I am slightly

00:01:44   annoyed with you, I still find that conversation hilarious.

00:01:48   But we have some follow up about Wranglers from David Crawford who writes in, "Casey,

00:01:52   You can tell Jon that this is the guy with the yellow 458 Speciale.

00:01:55   I probably, I hope I pronounced that right.

00:01:57   I think I did.

00:01:58   Anyway.

00:01:59   Quand foulio.

00:02:00   Yeah, exactly.

00:02:01   And I can drive anything I want.

00:02:02   But when I run out to the garage to grab a car to run around town, I jump in my Jeep

00:02:05   Wrangler.

00:02:06   My Jeep is heavily modified and was not intended as a daily driver, but I find myself driving

00:02:09   it more than anything because it's fun and nimble around town.

00:02:14   Any thoughts, Jon?

00:02:15   I buy the fun part.

00:02:16   Nimble?

00:02:17   Nimble?

00:02:18   Yeah.

00:02:19   I think that's fair.

00:02:20   nimble in this context means it's not a terribly long car, although I believe it was a four-door

00:02:25   thing.

00:02:26   I mean, like, it spends a lot of time on two wheels. It's very nimble.

00:02:28   Oh, God. Here we go. Here we go.

00:02:30   That's the thing about the Jeep Wrangler, like, specifically for you, like, it strikes

00:02:37   me—well, first of all, for this choice of cars, if you've got a Ferrari, a fancy Ferrari,

00:02:41   or a Jeep, neither one of those is really a great car to, you know, drive around as

00:02:47   a regular car because you're not going to take your Ferrari to try to like go grocery

00:02:51   shopping and scrape the front end trying to go into a gas station or whatever. And a Jeep,

00:02:56   like fun cars like that, whether they're fun sporty cars or fun like off-roady cars, they're

00:03:01   not really fun to go on like a 45-minute highway trip in a Jeep Wrangler or a Ferrari. Like

00:03:06   that's not what they're about. So it seems to me that you're still, as far as we can

00:03:11   tell, looking for like a, what they call a daily driver, like a car that you can use

00:03:15   every day. And yeah, you can use a Jeep every day and you could use a Ferrari every day,

00:03:18   but there's a lot of big compromises with both of those things. And thus far, you've

00:03:24   been looking at cars that are more like regular cars that also happen to have a fun side to

00:03:29   them, right? So that's why I don't think either one of these cars is a good choice for you.

00:03:34   So forget about the 458. I know that was the second one on your list, but cross it off.

00:03:39   Yes, totally within my budget. I don't know. I thought it was funny, nevertheless, that

00:03:44   here's someone that could really drive anything and they choose to drive their Jeep.

00:03:49   That's why I suggested a go-kart. Remember, you think it was like I'm making a joke. I

00:03:52   don't know if that was cut or whatever. I suggested a go-kart because it's like a fun

00:03:56   toy to have. You can tool around on that and it's a vehicle, but you're not going to bring

00:04:02   on roads. But it's just fun, right? It's way more fun than you would think because you're

00:04:05   so low to the ground and even when it doesn't go fast, it feels fast and it corners. You've

00:04:09   driven a go-kart, right? They're fun. And it gets that out of your system so you can

00:04:12   have a regular car that like works and keeps out the weather and doesn't roll over and

00:04:17   it's safe and you know all that good stuff. Fair enough. All right we got to get out of neutral.

00:04:21   I'm sorry. Let's talk about the iMac Pro since we're not going to do any of that today. We can

00:04:25   dive right in and say that the iMac Pro RAM upgrades and this is Rene Ritchie I guess

00:04:30   saying you can't upgrade the RAM yourself but you can take it to an Apple store or certified service

00:04:35   center and they can upgrade for you what now that's a right from Rene Ritchie so

00:04:42   I'm assuming it's true means right from Apple's mouth we you know we said that

00:04:46   nothing is upgradeable meaning like if you were to open it up yourself you're

00:04:50   avoiding your warranty or whatever blah blah blah but apparently you can bring

00:04:53   it to Apple they're all great so as far as I'm concerned I mean as Marco pointed

00:04:56   out I think and tweet replies this like then you have to pay Apple's prices for

00:05:00   RAM, which is ridiculous. But at the very least it shows Apple not entirely closing

00:05:06   the door. I wonder if that also applies to SSDs. Could you take it to Apple and say,

00:05:10   please take out this SSD and I will pay your crazy price to have twice as big an SSD and

00:05:16   you'll put it in there for me. But I still think the best bet is to just buy it how you

00:05:20   want it configured because all these upgrade options seem like they're expensive. But I

00:05:26   I guess this is official from Apple.

00:05:28   If they're gonna do the upgrade,

00:05:29   then at least that's one option available to you

00:05:32   if you don't mind the cost.

00:05:33   - Yeah, and there are also third party

00:05:35   Apple authorized service centers,

00:05:37   so maybe you could get them to do it for you

00:05:40   with third party RAM that would be cheaper,

00:05:42   but that's a big maybe, and it probably wouldn't be

00:05:46   that much cheaper, relatively speaking,

00:05:48   and then if you ever had to send it back into Apple,

00:05:49   you know they're gonna see that,

00:05:51   and they're gonna make you remove it

00:05:53   or have a problem with it or something

00:05:55   before they'd service the machine or something.

00:05:56   So it's like having all the downsides of having

00:06:01   third-party RAM in your Mac that have been forever

00:06:04   of trouble with Apple service sometimes and everything else.

00:06:07   Everyone's gonna blame that for any problems you have.

00:06:09   But with the added complexity that you really can't get

00:06:12   to it yourself to swap it in and out,

00:06:13   and it probably won't be that much cheaper.

00:06:16   So I feel like this, there's basically two reasons

00:06:20   why most people want upgradable RAM in a Mac.

00:06:23   Reason number one, which is probably by far the most common,

00:06:26   is to save money from Apple's somewhat inflated costs

00:06:30   and get cheaper RAM from somebody else.

00:06:33   Reason number two is to buy it with one amount of RAM

00:06:36   that you can afford today, and then in a few years,

00:06:40   increase the amount of RAM to extend its useful lifetime,

00:06:43   and by that point, you will probably have more money

00:06:45   and also the RAM will be cheaper.

00:06:47   This seems to maybe solve the second one,

00:06:52   but it almost certainly won't solve the first one.

00:06:55   And I feel like the first one is probably

00:06:57   the more common case among people

00:06:59   who would be following this kind of news

00:07:00   and making this kind of comment.

00:07:02   So while it is nice that the RAM is upgradeable by somebody,

00:07:06   the fact that it's not really upgradeable by you is,

00:07:10   it might as well be not upgradeable.

00:07:12   Like I'm with Jon, I would strongly suggest

00:07:15   that you order it with the amount of RAM

00:07:16   that you will want for the long haul, if at all possible.

00:07:20   - iMac Pro Input Devices,

00:07:21   I thought we had talked about this on the show very briefly, but you can get both the

00:07:26   blacked-out Magic Mouse and a blacked-out trackpad, and something like 150 bucks for

00:07:31   both or thereabouts?

00:07:32   I don't remember exactly how much.

00:07:33   The configurator wasn't up when we were recording the show, but we speculated, like, "Oh, what

00:07:37   do you have to buy?

00:07:38   Two iMacs to get both of them?"

00:07:40   Because Apple gave the reviewers both input devices, which seemed weird if that's not

00:07:44   a thing that you can buy, but it totally is a thing you can buy.

00:07:47   Yeah, and I personally don't have any particular interest in the trackpad.

00:07:51   I know it works for a lot of people.

00:07:52   It's not really my cup of tea.

00:07:54   But if I were to order an iMac Pro,

00:07:56   which sitting here now I am not currently planning on,

00:07:59   there is zero chance that I would not get both devices

00:08:03   because even if I didn't end up using

00:08:07   either the mouse or the trackpad,

00:08:08   you know that you'll be able to sell that thing

00:08:10   for a billion dollars online.

00:08:11   - I mean, Declan's College Fund,

00:08:12   where you sell a black trackpad.

00:08:15   - You're absolutely right.

00:08:15   Unless there's some sort of like software,

00:08:17   like DRM for lack of a better phrase,

00:08:20   that prevents them from working with anything but an iMac Pro, which would be ridiculous.

00:08:24   Yeah, the DRM is that it would clash and offend your sensibilities.

00:08:28   Fair point. I don't know. I wonder, genuinely, once these start showing up, how much the

00:08:34   keyboard—how much do you think—let's start with Marco—how much do you think a

00:08:38   keyboard—what is it, the Magic Extended Keyboard, whatever it's called—that and

00:08:42   either pointing device, doesn't matter which one, just one pointing device, how much do

00:08:46   you think that combination will go for on eBay or equivalent?

00:08:49   I'm guessing it goes for a little above

00:08:51   what they would cost at retail.

00:08:52   I don't think it's gonna be a crazy amount.

00:08:54   - You don't think so?

00:08:55   - And if it is a crazy amount,

00:08:56   it's going to be only very briefly,

00:08:58   once they are in people's hands.

00:08:59   I don't think this is gonna be as big of a deal.

00:09:02   Because these are already not cheap.

00:09:04   Right, they're already,

00:09:05   like the trackpad's about 160 by itself.

00:09:08   - Sounds like it. - Like if you buy it

00:09:08   at retail and the keyboards,

00:09:10   I don't know how much the keyboard is,

00:09:11   but you know, and the mouse is 100 I think or 80.

00:09:14   And so like, yeah, maybe for the $160 trackpad,

00:09:18   you might get 200 bucks.

00:09:19   Maybe in the first week you might get 250,

00:09:22   but I wouldn't expect it to be

00:09:24   a bigger difference than that.

00:09:26   - I would think it would be more.

00:09:27   - I agree, I don't think it's gonna be a big premium.

00:09:29   I was gonna say like a 50 buck premium

00:09:31   for the first week and then settling down after that,

00:09:33   especially when people find out that the keyboard bends.

00:09:35   (laughing)

00:09:38   We got some, I didn't put it in fault,

00:09:39   but we did get a bunch of feedback about that

00:09:41   from people who had bent keyboards.

00:09:45   And some people actually did say

00:09:46   that as far as they're aware, they got it and it was fine out of the box and they used

00:09:50   it for several months and eventually the middle touches when it didn't used to. And to the

00:09:54   point where it starts to like spin, you know? I don't know if that's from the force of typing

00:09:58   or from like heat or something, but you know, like when if the contact point becomes the

00:10:02   middle and the sides start to lift up and it can sort of start rotating itself, that's

00:10:06   no good.

00:10:07   >> That's super weird. I mean, if it's happening, it's happening, but that's super weird. Finally,

00:10:12   wrote in and pointed out to us that we missed talking about something, but I'm pretty sure

00:10:17   we missed it because it didn't happen until after we recorded.

00:10:20   And that is that the Mac Pro, not the iMac Pro, but the Mac Pro will be quote-unquote

00:10:25   "upgradable."

00:10:26   And so this is from an Apple press release.

00:10:29   It reads, "In addition to the new iMac Pro, Apple is working on a completely redesigned

00:10:32   next generation Mac Pro, architected for pro customers who need the highest performance,

00:10:37   high-throughput system and a modular upgradeable design as well as a new high-end Pro display.

00:10:44   Now this isn't really news, I don't believe, but it is Apple saying one more time, "No,

00:10:50   really everybody, this is a thing, or well, will be a thing, maybe, one day, and it should

00:10:56   hopefully solve a lot of the problems that you guys justify."

00:10:59   Well, I shouldn't say you two, but in general people were complaining about, and that is

00:11:03   upgradeability.

00:11:04   So, Marco, thoughts on that?

00:11:05   - No, I mean, this was pretty much my fault.

00:11:07   Like, we recorded and I had said,

00:11:09   like, you know, be careful to tame your expectations

00:11:12   and upgrade ability because I thought all Apple had said

00:11:15   before that point was that it would be modular,

00:11:17   not necessarily upgradeable.

00:11:20   But then they released this press release

00:11:21   with the iMac Pro, which I think was actually

00:11:23   earlier that day, we just didn't see it,

00:11:25   that says literally, a modular upgradeable design

00:11:28   is coming with the Mac Pro.

00:11:30   - You can bring your pessimism back and say

00:11:32   that just the RAM will be upgradeable.

00:11:33   - There's always room for worry.

00:11:36   - And also, it might be a situation

00:11:39   like what I was just describing with the iMac Pro RAM,

00:11:41   which is like, who can upgrade it?

00:11:43   Is only Apple gonna be able to upgrade it?

00:11:45   Also, what upgrades will work in it?

00:11:48   Will you be able to put in any GPU?

00:11:51   Probably not.

00:11:52   Will you be able to put in any RAM?

00:11:53   Probably not.

00:11:54   Any disk modules?

00:11:55   Probably not.

00:11:57   There's gonna be limits on what you can put in it.

00:12:01   But there always were.

00:12:03   but the limits have increased over time

00:12:05   with the Mac Pro towers and everything.

00:12:07   Also, just technology has moved on.

00:12:09   If you're talking about wanting, for instance,

00:12:12   the old ones were very good about disk expansion,

00:12:15   but that was also before SSDs, really.

00:12:19   The SSD revolution started right at the end

00:12:21   of the Mac Pro tower era, really.

00:12:24   So you could put SSDs into the Mac Pro tower,

00:12:27   but it was not designed for them up front.

00:12:29   It was kind of a hack to get them in there

00:12:31   if they weren't PCI cards,

00:12:32   and even then those were kind of a hack.

00:12:33   Everything was about three and a half inch disks

00:12:35   and optical drives.

00:12:36   And these days if you design that,

00:12:38   you can argue like well, it probably shouldn't include

00:12:41   a three and a half inch disk bay at all

00:12:43   because high end customers probably are not using

00:12:45   a lot of internal three and a half inch disks anymore.

00:12:48   So, you know, a lot has changed since the era

00:12:51   of the upgradeable tower.

00:12:53   And you can even argue for performance reasons.

00:12:57   Like you wouldn't want a whole bunch of like

00:13:00   just serial ATA bays in there,

00:13:03   because high-end SSDs are all using

00:13:06   direct-attached methods now,

00:13:07   like directly attached to the PCI bus,

00:13:09   and things like NVMe and stuff like that.

00:13:11   So there's not a lot of upgradeability

00:13:14   that pro customers who are gonna be buying the Mac Pro

00:13:19   are actually going to want beyond, I think,

00:13:22   RAM disk space, but not necessarily

00:13:25   a large amount, number of physical disks,

00:13:27   And probably the number one is GPU upgrades.

00:13:30   - Ding, ding, ding.

00:13:31   - I don't know whether they're gonna deliver that,

00:13:32   but I think GPU and RAM are the big ones

00:13:35   and disk is kind of a secondary one.

00:13:37   - I think disks they can get away with,

00:13:38   especially if they have a way for you to,

00:13:41   you know, like they can have the super high speed storage,

00:13:43   but then some standard for some slower bulk storage.

00:13:46   But anyway, GPU is the big one.

00:13:47   That's what we were talking about last time.

00:13:48   GPUs keep getting faster because you can make them faster

00:13:51   by just adding more transistors.

00:13:52   You can't do that with CPUs.

00:13:53   You haven't been able to for a decade or more.

00:13:56   And so it's so important to be able to do that,

00:14:00   even if Apple won't, that you can do it.

00:14:03   That's why, we talked about the GPUs last time,

00:14:05   but more people have been sending more links to people

00:14:07   showing how a cruddy old cheese grater

00:14:12   can be the iMac Pro and all sorts of benchmarks.

00:14:14   If you just take a faster GPU and throw it in there,

00:14:16   and this is an ancient cheese grater,

00:14:18   like how do these new GPUs even work in there?

00:14:20   'Cause it's just PCI express, right?

00:14:23   And it's just a standard card slot.

00:14:25   And how does the old Mac support it?

00:14:27   It supports it because the iMac Pro supports it

00:14:29   and Apple just made generic drivers for it.

00:14:31   And that Apple, that's not an embarrassment for Apple,

00:14:35   but it's like, Apple wants in on that action too.

00:14:38   Hey, we'll make a thing where you can put a new GPU in

00:14:40   and people want that machine because like, you know,

00:14:42   extending the life of the machine, if you buy this,

00:14:44   the super expensive system that is upgradable,

00:14:46   part of what you're paying for,

00:14:47   and we build into the price in some way,

00:14:50   is that this machine can last you a long time

00:14:52   if you're doing GPU intensive work.

00:14:54   After a year or two of use,

00:14:55   don't need to throw the machine out, you can just take the GPU out and put in one that's

00:14:58   way faster for a couple hundred bucks and new life for your machine. That's what we

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00:17:22   (upbeat music)

00:17:25   - As a final note of follow up, did we order anything?

00:17:28   I will start and say I have not,

00:17:29   which I think I said a moment ago.

00:17:31   I still don't think I will.

00:17:33   Although if I ever see one in an Apple store,

00:17:35   I'm gonna really have some tough thoughts

00:17:37   because I've seen this thing at WWDC and it is pretty.

00:17:41   But it's rare that I do anything on my iMac

00:17:44   that I have today that I feel like is truly

00:17:47   and utterly constrained by something an iMac Pro would fix.

00:17:51   Jon, did you order an iMac Pro?

00:17:52   It's certainly you must have,

00:17:54   since this is the thing you've been waiting for for years,

00:17:56   is it not?

00:17:57   - It took a while for me to figure out

00:17:58   what are you even talking about?

00:17:59   Like, what do you mean, what did we order?

00:18:00   (laughing)

00:18:02   You were never gonna order one,

00:18:03   and I was never gonna order one,

00:18:04   and Marco was always gonna order one,

00:18:06   so no, I didn't buy anything.

00:18:07   (laughing)

00:18:08   - So Marco, tell us about your configuration,

00:18:10   since we all know you did order one.

00:18:12   - I think I ordered one.

00:18:13   - What?

00:18:15   (laughing)

00:18:16   - I ordered through the business rep,

00:18:18   but I haven't gotten the order confirmation email,

00:18:20   and my card has not been charged,

00:18:22   and it's been four days.

00:18:23   - Sometimes Marco blacks out when he buys things,

00:18:25   and he just wakes up, and he just boxes it at his front step,

00:18:27   and it's like, it's inexplicable.

00:18:28   - I'm not entirely sure whether my order

00:18:30   has actually been placed or whether it fell on the floor

00:18:32   because that was a very busy day for them or something.

00:18:34   I have to follow up.

00:18:35   - Okay, so if you ordered one, what build,

00:18:38   what are the highlights of what you think you ordered?

00:18:40   - It's like, if I did it. (laughs)

00:18:43   All right, 10 core, to put this in context,

00:18:48   the reason I ordered this computer

00:18:50   is that Tiff wants it in six months

00:18:52   and so she wants me to buy this now

00:18:53   so that way when the Mac Pro comes out,

00:18:55   I upgrade to that and I give her this.

00:18:57   So I basically configured it for TIFF,

00:19:00   which means that I got the really big SSD,

00:19:02   that was the big splurge.

00:19:04   The 10 core, 64 gigs of RAM, not 128,

00:19:08   'cause I mean my current--

00:19:09   - Wait, what's the really big SSD, the four gig one?

00:19:11   - The four terabyte, yeah.

00:19:13   - Four ter, what does she, for photos and stuff,

00:19:15   what does she got mostly?

00:19:17   - Photos and stuff mostly,

00:19:18   and a couple of video stuff around too,

00:19:20   'cause like dealing with the photos

00:19:21   and processing them into videos sometimes.

00:19:23   - What does she have,

00:19:24   - Like how much stuff does she have now?

00:19:26   Like does she have more than four terabyte total storage?

00:19:28   Like are you buying her a computer that's like twice as big

00:19:31   as the one she has now in terms of primary storage

00:19:33   or is it about the same size?

00:19:34   - When we bought the 2014s that we have now,

00:19:37   we've maxed it out but at the time that was one terabyte.

00:19:39   So it's one terabyte internal and she's had this

00:19:42   four terabyte external Thunderbolt RAID array

00:19:46   that literally is four one terabyte SSDs in RAID 0.

00:19:50   Don't worry, it's very much backed up to various places

00:19:52   But that is now, that's now been operating constantly

00:19:56   for three years in this little enclosure

00:19:57   with this dumb little fan.

00:19:58   I don't know how long it's gonna last.

00:20:00   I'd rather not depend on it for too much longer.

00:20:02   If any of those go bad, the last thing I'm gonna wanna do

00:20:05   is buy a new one terabyte SSD in 2017.

00:20:08   So kind of preparing for that to go away.

00:20:12   Also, I just hate having another box and fan

00:20:14   and this hot thing.

00:20:15   All the Thunderbolt stuff runs really hot.

00:20:17   Like all the controller chips that are in the devices,

00:20:19   they run like red hot.

00:20:21   That's why it needs this giant fan.

00:20:22   and it's not for the SSDs.

00:20:23   Yeah, basically replacing that, simplifying her setup,

00:20:26   and making it better, so that's why I did that.

00:20:29   And again, it was also kind of a phrase,

00:20:31   I'm like, you know, I can probably never upgrade these,

00:20:34   or at least I won't want to upgrade them,

00:20:36   because whatever will be involved

00:20:37   and whatever it will cost will probably be crazy.

00:20:40   So, yeah, four terabyte, but, and that was a lot of money.

00:20:44   I'm not gonna try to candy-coat that, that was ridiculous.

00:20:47   But, you know, the rest, kind of,

00:20:50   a down-the-middle configuration.

00:20:51   the low end GPU, the middle RAM amount,

00:20:54   and the middle CPU, I guess.

00:20:57   - How did TIFF approve the low end GPU?

00:21:00   - Oh, interesting question.

00:21:02   - So if you do the research on the 56 versus the 64,

00:21:05   it's not that different.

00:21:07   And it seems like for what we do,

00:21:11   I don't think anything we do,

00:21:13   you would notice the difference at all.

00:21:15   Because things like Photoshop and Lightroom,

00:21:18   They do use the GPU, but not for a huge amount of stuff,

00:21:23   and they don't use it very hard

00:21:24   in the way that we use these apps.

00:21:25   Additionally, you're probably thinking, what about gaming?

00:21:28   But even for, like, for A, most games she plays

00:21:31   are not on the computer.

00:21:33   B, it's still gonna be a massive upgrade from what we have.

00:21:37   And C, I don't think the gaming performance difference

00:21:40   is gonna be that big between those two.

00:21:42   - I'll say.

00:21:43   - Yeah, I'm surprised.

00:21:44   So, anxious to hear about this if and when it comes in,

00:21:49   if and when you even ordered it,

00:21:51   whether or not that was a fever dream, we'll see.

00:21:53   - If I haven't ordered it, do you want me to make any edits

00:21:55   when I resubmit the order?

00:21:57   - Actually, I think Jon does.

00:21:58   It sounds reasonable to me.

00:21:59   - I would get a big GPU, 'cause it's not that much more,

00:22:02   right, it's like a couple hundred bucks more?

00:22:03   - I think it's like 600 more.

00:22:05   - 600 more, that's steep.

00:22:06   - I elected to spend most of the craziness on the disk,

00:22:10   because that's, we'll actually use that.

00:22:13   That's doing the thing where when you're buying a car and it's so expensive that $150 for

00:22:17   floor mats seems like nothing and you forget that $150 is the same size whether you compare

00:22:21   it to 30 grand or you compare it to 10 bucks.

00:22:24   It's always 150.

00:22:25   It doesn't change size, but you feel like it does.

00:22:27   So I could use that to persuade you.

00:22:30   Given how much you paid for the SSD, $600 for a better GPU is nothing.

00:22:34   It's like floor mats.

00:22:36   You're not wrong.

00:22:38   You're not wrong.

00:22:39   $600 is way too much for the GPU speed upgrade,

00:22:42   but what you paid for the four terabyte

00:22:44   is also way too much.

00:22:44   So, you know, I don't know where to go from here.

00:22:46   Anyway, talk to Tiff, see what you think.

00:22:47   - I agree.

00:22:49   - All right, shall we do some Ask ATP?

00:22:50   - Let's do it.

00:22:52   - So I try to discourage emailed submissions

00:22:55   because that encourages a lack of brevity.

00:22:58   However, every once in a while,

00:23:00   one sneaks through that I really like.

00:23:02   And you added this to the show notes

00:23:04   only because you beat me to it.

00:23:05   And this is J.D. Lewin writes,

00:23:08   I'm looking to dip my toe into the "high quality" Headphone Plus DAC digital analog converter

00:23:14   market, which led me to read some of Marco's older blog posts.

00:23:17   At the moment, the Beyerdynamic DT880s, which I'm pretty sure is what I have on my head

00:23:21   right now, can be had for under $200, and a $200 Fula?

00:23:28   I don't even know how to pronounce it.

00:23:30   Thank you.

00:23:31   Two for $90.

00:23:32   This seems to be an affordable way into dangerous waters.

00:23:35   My question is about source material.

00:23:37   Will this setup be wasted on the AAC files

00:23:40   delivered through Apple Music, Spotify, et cetera?

00:23:42   So Marco, take it away.

00:23:44   - Yeah, so to answer the actual question

00:23:47   of whether decent headphones will be wasted

00:23:50   on playing AAC files from Apple Music and Spotify,

00:23:53   no, definitely not.

00:23:55   There is a point where some people claim

00:23:58   that they can hear differences between AAC/MP3/

00:24:03   other lossy compressed formats and lossless music.

00:24:06   (beep)

00:24:07   Excuse me.

00:24:08   - Yeah, see also high sample rates higher than 44.1,

00:24:12   you know, bit rates above 24 bit, et cetera.

00:24:16   We talked about this before, but you know,

00:24:18   basically I'm not a believer in that being noticeable

00:24:21   by most people.

00:24:23   I'm not sure if it's noticeable by any people,

00:24:26   but at least the few blind tests that have been done

00:24:30   seem to support that it really is not noticeable

00:24:33   by almost anybody.

00:24:35   So, whereas the difference in headphones or speakers,

00:24:39   like the difference in the actual transducers

00:24:42   that are producing the music for you,

00:24:44   that can be huge differences in very noticeable ways.

00:24:48   So, when you're looking for places to spend money

00:24:51   if you want to get a good upgrade,

00:24:53   a good bang for your buck,

00:24:55   spend that money on the headphones or the speakers

00:24:57   and not on the amps and the DACs

00:25:00   and the fancy source material

00:25:01   and the high bit rate everything.

00:25:03   you will notice the headphones.

00:25:05   You will not notice the DAC,

00:25:07   and you will not notice the source material

00:25:10   being good or bad,

00:25:12   because unless it's encoded at very low bit rates,

00:25:14   like a 128K MP3 or about the same AAC,

00:25:18   as long as it's higher than that, basically,

00:25:19   you're probably not gonna notice it.

00:25:21   And all the services now,

00:25:22   they all offer high quality streaming

00:25:25   if you have enough bandwidth that is high enough

00:25:27   that you're not gonna notice it.

00:25:28   So don't worry about that.

00:25:30   On the headphone topic itself,

00:25:33   the Beyerdynamic DT880 is a very old headphone,

00:25:37   but still a very, very good one.

00:25:39   And if it can be had for under 200 bucks,

00:25:41   that's a great deal.

00:25:42   There's a huge headphone revolution happening

00:25:44   over the last few years.

00:25:45   Lots and lots of amazing headphones are coming out.

00:25:47   And a lot of formerly, fairly premium ones

00:25:50   are being pushed downmarket.

00:25:52   That is one of them.

00:25:53   I highly suggest, if you are a fan of treble in music,

00:25:58   and if you like the kind of crispness

00:26:01   that turning up the treble a little bit

00:26:02   offers you in music, if it doesn't sound harsh to you,

00:26:06   Bear Dynamic is a great company to look at.

00:26:09   Their headphones tend to be a little treble heavy,

00:26:11   but if you like that, they are wonderful.

00:26:14   They are also incredibly comfortable.

00:26:17   The downside is that the 880, like almost any good

00:26:20   and especially good and expensive headphone,

00:26:23   has an open back to the ear cups.

00:26:25   So that means, if you've never used this before,

00:26:27   you're basically, the drivers are kind of suspended

00:26:30   in open air, the backs of the headphones

00:26:33   are just like screens, they're not solid material.

00:26:36   And so, an annoying, tinny version

00:26:39   of what you are listening to plays out

00:26:41   to the room around you, and they don't isolate you

00:26:44   very well from outside sounds.

00:26:46   So, this is really a terrible setup.

00:26:50   It's a terrible thing to use open headphones

00:26:52   if you are in either a loud environment,

00:26:54   like walking around a city, or if you are sharing

00:26:58   an office with anybody because your music will be really

00:27:01   annoyingly tinny and weird sounding to anyone else

00:27:04   in the office.

00:27:04   They will hate you if you play headphones in that way.

00:27:06   But if you have your own quiet space where there's not

00:27:09   other people around to annoy, open headphones are by far

00:27:13   the best sound you can get for the money.

00:27:16   It's not even close.

00:27:18   And there's basically three points that you need to know

00:27:20   about in this market.

00:27:22   On the very low end, you have the Grado SR60.

00:27:24   Sounds amazing, costs like 60 or 70 bucks,

00:27:27   but it's pretty uncomfortable.

00:27:29   Then you have the Beyerdynamic DT880,

00:27:32   which is the one that JD's asking about here.

00:27:35   They are great, TIFF uses a pair at her desk still,

00:27:37   they're wonderful, around 200 bucks.

00:27:40   Very, very comfortable, everything about them is great

00:27:42   except they have that open back,

00:27:43   which is impractical in certain contexts.

00:27:46   And then also, if you don't like very strong treble,

00:27:49   you won't like either of those options,

00:27:50   if you like a more, what they call, laid back sound,

00:27:53   where they kinda like roll off the treble,

00:27:55   It's very much like, younger people tend to like this

00:27:58   a little bit more because it kind of goes into like the

00:28:00   soft is loud musical aesthetic that has been taken over

00:28:03   recently in like emo music and stuff and whatever else

00:28:06   that I'm probably mangling the terminology for.

00:28:08   If you like that, if you don't like a lot of treble

00:28:10   and you like it to be very soft and like, you know,

00:28:13   gentle on your ears, the Sennheiser HD 650

00:28:18   used to be $600 and in recent years they've done a bunch

00:28:23   like special things, where they're cutting the price

00:28:25   at that, or they're doing special editions with Massdrop,

00:28:28   but it's still basically the HD 650.

00:28:31   That is an amazing headphone.

00:28:33   It's old and it looks kind of weird,

00:28:35   but it has like speckled plastic.

00:28:36   It's a very ugly thing, but it's like,

00:28:38   it's an amazing sounding headphone

00:28:40   if you can get it for below 300 bucks.

00:28:42   And if you don't like that strong treble

00:28:44   that the Bear Dynamic will give you.

00:28:46   So basically, those are my recommendations.

00:28:47   Ignore the source material quality,

00:28:49   just get whatever you get, don't be upset,

00:28:50   it's wonderful, it'll be good enough.

00:28:52   And if you wanna spend 60 bucks and you like Treble

00:28:56   and you don't like Comfort, get the Grado SR60.

00:28:58   (laughs)

00:28:59   If you want Comfort and still like Treble, the DT880.

00:29:04   And if you don't like Treble and you can spend

00:29:08   like 300 bucks-ish range, the Sennheiser HD650.

00:29:12   And on the DAC side, all of those can be driven

00:29:16   perfectly fine from the headphone jack

00:29:19   in any Mac desktop or laptop.

00:29:22   The phone, you won't get a lot of volume out of

00:29:24   if you try to push it too high,

00:29:25   but you don't need an external DAC

00:29:28   for any of those headphones.

00:29:30   You might get a little bit better performance and volume

00:29:32   and maybe at the highest volume,

00:29:33   maybe a little bit better base,

00:29:36   especially the HD 650 is the least efficient

00:29:38   of all those that I just mentioned,

00:29:39   so that's the one that most would need one,

00:29:42   but you're pretty much fine without that.

00:29:45   Like if you just wanna start,

00:29:46   just get a really nice pair of headphones

00:29:48   that can work with the built-in headphone jack in your Mac,

00:29:50   which almost everything can.

00:29:53   - You know, I'd just like to say,

00:29:55   I agree with pretty much everything you said.

00:29:56   I don't know about specific recommendations of headphones.

00:29:59   I haven't bought headphones in a long time

00:30:00   outside of my AirPods, but I wanted to,

00:30:03   and I think I've done this every time you brought it up,

00:30:05   I wanted to concur with you about open headphones.

00:30:08   I have an ancient pair of Sennheisers.

00:30:10   I don't even remember what model they are.

00:30:12   They're so damn ancient.

00:30:13   - I think they're a 598 maybe?

00:30:14   - Something like that.

00:30:15   I mean, they're like easily 10 years old at this point,

00:30:18   and I can dig up what they are.

00:30:20   doesn't really matter. But suffice it to say I have an ancient pair of Sennheiser

00:30:23   open-air headphones and they are phenomenal. They are truly, truly great. It

00:30:31   is terrible to be within 30 feet of me when I'm listening to them, but they are really,

00:30:36   really good. And I also wanted to agree with you about the quality of the source

00:30:41   material. You can go flack if you want, if you want to be one of those kind

00:30:46   of nerds, but again, Marco was absolutely right that the best thing to do is change

00:30:51   your headphones. I will, however, say if you can stand in your earbuds, earphones, whatever

00:30:59   the fancy version is. Thank you. Well, not even the custom mold ones. I'm just talking

00:31:03   about like a really, really fancy pair of in-ear headphones. I think they're a lot more

00:31:08   finicky. I don't think they're really worth it, but I have a really fancy pair of now

00:31:14   very discontinued Ultimate Ears in-ear headphone things.

00:31:19   And they are, when they're seated properly, they're the best headphones I have.

00:31:25   But to be fair, to get them seated 100% properly is a real pain in the butt.

00:31:29   So I still think Marco's right that doing something, a traditional headphone, preferably

00:31:33   open air, is a better choice.

00:31:35   But if you have ears that are conducive to in-ear things, or are willing to spend the

00:31:41   money to get your ears poured and get custom molds made to get IEMs like Marco just brought

00:31:46   up. That is probably the money no object, effort no object, best and most effective

00:31:52   way to get good headphones in my personal opinion. But a lot of people don't really

00:31:56   agree with that. Hello Marco. And other people don't want to spend that money and don't want

00:32:01   to be bothered. Hello both of us. So it's not the best answer unless you're really,

00:32:07   really going deep into this world, but it's worth at least mentioning.

00:32:12   All right, Jeremy Nachman writes, "I've never had much interest in cars personally, but

00:32:17   I have a nine-year-old who seems to have an interest.

00:32:19   Do you have any car magazine recommendations that kids would enjoy?

00:32:21   It doesn't necessarily need to be one targeting a kid's audience."

00:32:26   When I was growing up and I was about this age, I used to love reading Car and Driver,

00:32:29   and I don't pay attention to print magazines very much anymore, and I know, John, you do,

00:32:33   so I'm going to turn it over to you in a second.

00:32:34   But last I saw, Car and Driver was still pretty good, Motor Trend was okay.

00:32:39   You can also get a lot of really good stuff on YouTube, and that's not even like me trying

00:32:43   to plug myself.

00:32:44   Although, hey, KC on Cars is a new series you might want to look at, so here I am plugging

00:32:47   myself.

00:32:48   But no, the Motor Trend stuff that's on YouTube is actually very, very good and very digestible,

00:32:53   and not too bro-y, generally speaking.

00:32:56   There's plenty of car stuff on YouTube that is very bro-y, and I wouldn't necessarily

00:32:59   recommend for a nine-year-old, but the Motor Trend stuff is good in terms of magazines,

00:33:04   Car and Driver.

00:33:05   Jon, additional thoughts?

00:33:06   Yeah, the kid angle on this is what makes it difficult because I still watch a lot of

00:33:11   car stuff on YouTube and I have in the past subscribed to I think every car, every straight

00:33:18   car magazine, not like truck magazines or hot rod magazines or more specialty type of

00:33:23   stuff which may be what you could end up getting into.

00:33:27   But for Car and Magazines, Car and Driver is still my gold standard.

00:33:32   But the reason I have trouble recommending this for a kid is because, like when you think

00:33:37   of car magazines, like in the worst case scenario you're thinking of like some hot rotted magazine

00:33:43   where every single month there's a girl in a bikini sitting on the roof of a car and

00:33:47   you're like, "Oh, I'm not going to buy those for my kids because that's, you know, I don't

00:33:49   want to spread that kind of message about how this stuff works."

00:33:53   But here's the problem with Even Car and Driver, which I think has some of the best car riding

00:33:58   and has for many years now.

00:34:00   It is relentlessly, unconsciously sexist.

00:34:04   Like it is in every pore of that magazine and you think, "Well, there's no girls in

00:34:09   bikinis on the cover."

00:34:10   Like it's fine, right?

00:34:11   It's not though.

00:34:12   Like every article is written assuming that the person reading it is a man.

00:34:16   Like every joke, every gag, every cover image, every like so much so that they don't even

00:34:21   know they're doing it.

00:34:22   They don't even think that there could possibly be another joke.

00:34:24   They don't make any attempt like and then there's some right wing politics that's thrown

00:34:29   there but I think that's less harmful because it's mixed up with everything else.

00:34:32   So I have trouble recommending that young people start their life in cars reading a

00:34:39   magazine that assumes the only people who ever be into cars are men because that's not

00:34:43   healthy for anybody involved.

00:34:45   So I would say that YouTube has a higher chance of being sort of more welcoming.

00:34:51   At least the YouTube channels I've seen, there are many things to not recommend them and

00:34:54   And there are, of course, YouTube channels with terrible, bro-y people saying terrible,

00:35:00   bro-y things.

00:35:01   What else is new?

00:35:02   It's the internet.

00:35:03   But A, I think kids are more likely to get into that than paper magazines, which, come

00:35:09   on, who reads those?

00:35:10   And B, I think you might have a better chance of steering your kid towards a more inclusive

00:35:21   YouTube channel.

00:35:22   Because honestly, I don't know of any magazines that aren't.

00:35:24   In fact, the car and driver is probably the best one.

00:35:26   Automobiles is fairly good too, but just all those car magazines just assume you are a

00:35:33   guy reading a car magazine.

00:35:35   And half the time they don't even know they're assuming it.

00:35:38   It's not a good look and it's not something that I would recommend a young person get

00:35:42   into because why perpetuate that?

00:35:45   Let me just put out a call that if you are listening to this and you know of a YouTube

00:35:50   channel hosted by a woman that's really good that's about cars or Noah, an author that's

00:35:55   either a blogger or a particular author to look at any of these car magazines that's

00:35:59   a woman.

00:36:00   I would love to know that because I certainly only hear dudes of various bro-iness talking

00:36:04   about cars.

00:36:05   I'd love to hear a different perspective on that.

00:36:07   So maybe not even a woman, just a different perspective.

00:36:09   I mean, define that however you'd like, but I'd love to hear it.

00:36:13   So feel free to tweet at me and let me know.

00:36:15   And by the way, Jeremy didn't say whether his kid was girl or boy, and I don't think

00:36:19   it matters. Like, you shouldn't... if your kid is like a little boy who's super into

00:36:23   cars, he shouldn't be reading a magazine that assumes everybody who's reading it is a dude

00:36:28   either. Like, that's... it has nothing to do with the gender of the child or anything

00:36:31   like that. It's just... like, what I'm getting at is print is old, and it is mostly dominated

00:36:36   by old people with old opinions. And even as new writers have come in, and I think I

00:36:39   made a tweet a couple years ago to the effect that you could see the changeover on the writing

00:36:43   staff of Car and Driver when they started making jokes in the captions or their images.

00:36:47   They reference things like Star Trek, where you wouldn't have seen that when like Brock

00:36:50   Yates was still writing or whatever.

00:36:52   Like there is a changing of the guard, but it's still the boys' club, and there's no

00:36:57   reason it should be.

00:36:58   There's nothing gendered about cars, right?

00:37:00   So that's disappointing.

00:37:02   And YouTube, I feel like, is slightly better.

00:37:04   It's also worse.

00:37:05   Like, you know, the equivalent of the bikini girls on the hoods, those YouTube channels

00:37:09   totally exist too, right?

00:37:10   So you know, the internet is a big place, so be careful.

00:37:14   All right, and finally from Jeff Isu, "ECC RAM seems to make sense for high-stakes contacts

00:37:21   like finance, space, like space travel, etc.

00:37:24   What practical effects do you expect it to have on a Mac?

00:37:28   Have you ever noticed a flip bit on your machine?

00:37:31   Do you just find it cool as a nerd and/or want it for peace of mind?"

00:37:35   So Jon, can you kind of do a recap for us on what ECC RAM is, why this is relevant now,

00:37:40   and then answer the question for us?

00:37:42   - I think we did that on a couple past shows.

00:37:44   We had debates about how important this is.

00:37:45   So ECC is for error correcting,

00:37:48   where if they're, you know,

00:37:49   they send the information from RAM,

00:37:51   but they also have a bit to check

00:37:52   whether the information you're getting

00:37:53   is accurately represented.

00:37:54   You think it was like a parody bit or whatever,

00:37:55   but I think it's more complicated than that these days.

00:37:57   But anyway, usually they have the bit to recover,

00:38:01   the ability to recover from small errors,

00:38:02   like a one bit error.

00:38:03   They can correct that on the fly

00:38:05   because they know which bit is off

00:38:07   and what it should be instead.

00:38:08   And so it was, you know,

00:38:10   what would have been some bad data coming out of RAM

00:38:13   gets corrected to the right data.

00:38:14   Why would bad data come out of RAM?

00:38:17   That's the question about ECC RAM.

00:38:18   What errors are you correcting?

00:38:20   Who cares if you have error correcting ability

00:38:22   in your RAM chips?

00:38:23   RAM chips don't make any errors,

00:38:25   they're solid state components.

00:38:26   Everything is perfect about them, right?

00:38:28   Unfortunately, everything in the world of digital

00:38:30   is under the covers analog

00:38:32   until you get down to the quantum level,

00:38:33   but we're not gonna get into that.

00:38:35   (laughing)

00:38:36   So-- - You gotta have limits

00:38:37   somewhere.

00:38:37   - Yeah, so the question is,

00:38:39   how often these errors come up.

00:38:41   And the last time we talked about this,

00:38:42   we cited a bunch of studies.

00:38:43   We'll put two links into the show notes

00:38:45   about two semi-recent ones.

00:38:47   One of them was a 2009 study

00:38:49   that was supposedly saying that the error rates in RAM

00:38:53   are much higher than had previously been measured.

00:38:56   Something like 25 to 70,000 errors

00:39:01   per billion device hours per megabit,

00:39:04   with errors on more than 8% of DIMMs.

00:39:06   And there's an IBM study in the '90s

00:39:09   looking at like the causes of this,

00:39:11   like radiation from space, essentially,

00:39:14   flipping your bits, assuming you're not in something

00:39:16   that is shielded from cosmic rays,

00:39:19   producing one error per 256 megabytes of RAM per month.

00:39:24   And you can sell it from the '90s

00:39:27   'cause it's talking about 200,

00:39:28   so one error per 256 megabytes of RAM per month,

00:39:31   that's not a small number if we have four gigs of RAM,

00:39:33   right, or 16 gigs or whatever you have.

00:39:37   Errors happen.

00:39:38   Now the question is, alright, so who cares if a bit is flipped?

00:39:41   What do that manifest in some way?

00:39:43   If you got unlucky, you could take your whole computer down.

00:39:46   But chances are good, nothing will happen because that bit didn't matter.

00:39:50   Like there are so many bits that just don't matter.

00:39:52   Not even that it gets corrupted and ends up in the file system, maybe that bit just didn't

00:39:55   matter at all.

00:39:56   Or you know, it changed something, it changed the color of a pixel in a way that you couldn't

00:40:03   detect or it just ended up in some garbage data at the end of some buffer that never

00:40:10   got reached.

00:40:11   Maybe it just doesn't matter.

00:40:12   It came out of RAM and it got overwritten with something else.

00:40:14   But every once in a while it does matter.

00:40:15   And the reason people use ECC is because they think that for the small incremental cost

00:40:20   of having ECC RAM, maybe it saves you from, for computers that run a really long time

00:40:25   and uptime is important and correctness is important.

00:40:29   is the best we have to get a little bit more safety for not that much more cost and that's

00:40:36   why servers use it and that's why fancy high-end desktops with server hardware use it.

00:40:42   And I think a lot of it for nerds like us is like, "Well, it doesn't cost that much

00:40:45   more and it makes it slightly more reliable, so let's do it."

00:40:50   But you know, it's not like a light comes on when it tells you it just saved you from

00:40:54   something because kind of like the big sky theory in aviation the big ram

00:40:58   theory is the chances of one of those bit flips actually affecting something

00:41:03   you do in a way that you noticed is actually pretty low but it just you know

00:41:07   it does make us feel better so the answer is no there's no reason basically

00:41:10   no I mean the reason is that it does improve things and it doesn't cost that

00:41:14   much more if it was seven times the cost it would be ridiculous but it's just a

00:41:18   little bit more and so you're like yeah why not why not do that for a little bit

00:41:22   - Also, and this could just be terrible

00:41:26   anecdotal data, you know, but just anecdotally,

00:41:28   my Mac Pros have been the most stable,

00:41:32   solid machines I've owned.

00:41:33   And I've gone, I've used laptops full time,

00:41:36   I've used an iMac full time,

00:41:38   and I've used Mac Pros full time.

00:41:39   And it's very, very different.

00:41:41   The Mac Pros were always the most stable machines by far.

00:41:45   - You didn't keep the trash cans long enough

00:41:46   for your GPUs to overheat, so.

00:41:48   - I didn't use GPUs heavily enough.

00:41:50   During the eight or nine months I had one,

00:41:53   it was rock solid.

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00:44:02   (upbeat music)

00:44:04   - I have questions about the iMac Pro/Mac Pro.

00:44:09   As someone who used to know the ins and outs

00:44:12   of what the current processors were in GPUs

00:44:14   and things of that nature like 20 years ago

00:44:16   I was building my own PCs, I have not kept up in a long time.

00:44:21   And it seems like, and I might even get this backwards, so jump in and correct me, but

00:44:26   it seems like everyone is really perturbed that the iMac Pro is only coming with an AMD

00:44:32   graphics card.

00:44:33   And apparently it's like Nvidia or Bust in the graphics card department.

00:44:38   Can one of you guys explain to me, like, A, do I even have that right?

00:44:42   B, why?

00:44:43   And C, then why isn't Apple offering NVIDIA cards and why are they so committed to AMD?

00:44:51   Or at least what's your best guess, if nothing else?

00:44:54   Jon, do you want to kind of talk me through this?

00:44:57   The NVIDIA thing, we talked about this before, about who at various times in our life using

00:45:03   computers has been the GPU performance king, you know, like starting from I guess the Voodoo

00:45:08   3D days.

00:45:09   Ah, I remember those days.

00:45:10   Those were good days.

00:45:11   Those were good days.

00:45:13   3D effects and you know, anyway.

00:45:15   Did you, did the Mac, I think we've talked about this

00:45:17   months and months and months ago,

00:45:18   but did the Mac ever have the thing

00:45:20   where you had the little stubby VGA cable

00:45:22   to connect the 2D card to the 3D card?

00:45:24   Do you know what I'm talking about?

00:45:25   Yeah, I was pretty sure it did not ever

00:45:27   have anything like that.

00:45:28   No, the Mac never had gaming or VGA.

00:45:31   It did have VGA, there were Macs that had VGA.

00:45:33   You know exactly what I'm talking about though,

00:45:35   don't you Marco, like you had one of these.

00:45:36   Yeah, it would connect to your 3D effects accelerator card.

00:45:39   Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:45:40   Yep.

00:45:41   those were the days. Sorry, anyway, John, carry on, please.

00:45:43   >> John

00:46:02   Arkady. Anyway, at various points, Nvidia had the fastest meaning like basically for games, like who

00:46:07   can run insert hot 3D game here the fastest. Sometimes it was Nvidia, sometimes it was AMD.

00:46:14   If you looked at the swings, it seems that in the most recent years Nvidia has been on top more,

00:46:23   but it really depends on the specific application. But for right now, Nvidia is on top in a lot of

00:46:30   markets. In games, I think they're on top because they make a lot of cards that make sacrifices in

00:46:37   precision for the purposes of performance. And very often, ATI, which is now AMD, would tell you,

00:46:42   "Yeah, that's fine, but if you want to do real serious work with a program that requires higher

00:46:47   precision, that AMD is better," or whatever. But also because Nvidia and AMD have chosen different

00:46:53   platforms for compute on GPUs and NVIDIA's one that they're what is there's CUDA, CUDA, CUDA, yeah

00:47:01   is right now more popular and so we had someone actually write into us about this. This is Daniel

00:47:07   who said in addition to NVIDIA being faster there's lots of software now that uses GPU

00:47:11   acceleration but only NVIDIA so their application software written it's accelerated for GPUs but

00:47:18   literally only accelerated by NVIDIA GPUs. The example gives us Redshift and Maya and 3D new

00:47:23   new plugins for Nuke like Eddy and GoGhost on the 2D side.

00:47:27   So part of it is like just market success

00:47:30   that Nvidia was able to convince software makers

00:47:32   of these big expensive pro applications

00:47:34   to write their software to only be accelerated

00:47:37   by Nvidia cards.

00:47:38   So that, forget about who's faster for it,

00:47:40   who has better cards or whatever.

00:47:42   If it literally won't work with AMD graphics cards,

00:47:46   that's bad, like it'll, you know,

00:47:47   it would run in an unaccelerated mode.

00:47:49   And then secondarily, if you're into games

00:47:51   lots of other applications, chances are that right now Nvidia sells the absolute fastest

00:47:56   card that will run whatever your GPU thing is the fastest.

00:47:59   That's why we had that question a while back, we were saying if the Mac Pro doesn't support

00:48:02   Nvidia, is it a failure or whatever.

00:48:05   I don't think it is for the most part.

00:48:08   And you know, if you have to use one of these applications that is only accelerated by Nvidia,

00:48:12   chances are good you haven't had a Mac in a long time.

00:48:15   Because for whatever reason, I'm not sure what the reason is, but for whatever reason,

00:48:19   Macs have not shipped with Nvidia GPUs, either standard or optional, for a long time now.

00:48:25   So it's not as if people are out there using Macs with Nvidia graphics card waiting to

00:48:30   upgrade.

00:48:31   All these people who are using these programs presumably are already using PCs.

00:48:33   But anyway, that's why I think people are concerned about the Nvidia situation, because

00:48:39   part of the promise of the Mac Pro is it's a modular system and it's upgradable, but

00:48:43   How upgradeable is it really if you can only ever put in new AMD graphics cards?

00:48:50   That's great.

00:48:51   It lets you extend the life of the machine like we said before, but there was a time

00:48:55   that some Mac users may remember when you could buy a Mac like the one sitting next

00:48:59   to me right now that could run cards from both of those manufacturers.

00:49:03   And that time was good and we would like that time to return.

00:49:06   Yeah, I think some other angles to consider.

00:49:09   First of all, the explanation of why we have not seen

00:49:14   any new Macs with NVIDIA GPUs in something like

00:49:18   three or four years is possibly related to

00:49:22   there was a massive series of NVIDIA GPU failures

00:49:25   in MacBook Pros.

00:49:27   We heard rumblings here and there from various

00:49:29   uncredible sources that there might be some kind of

00:49:31   big political rift between Apple and NVIDIA from that time.

00:49:36   but it does certainly seem like there is definitely,

00:49:40   like it is a choice that Apple is making

00:49:43   not to ship Nvidia GPUs in all of their computers

00:49:47   since a few years ago.

00:49:49   It is not just coincidence.

00:49:51   - And on that issue though, on it being a choice,

00:49:53   which again I've heard as well,

00:49:55   the weird part about it is that modern Apple especially

00:50:00   has always been really enthusiastic

00:50:02   about always having two suppliers

00:50:03   for everything that it does.

00:50:05   you know, even just like, because if they get themselves in situations where there's one,

00:50:08   they get themselves into a Qualcomm situation, and they're just like, they need someone to play

00:50:13   off of, but everything, the RAM, who's manufacturing their systems on a chip, like SSD screens. Best

00:50:19   case, Apple wants to have two sources, not just for redundancy, but so that you don't become under

00:50:25   the thumb of one, like you can become under the thumb of Qualcomm, it's like, who else are you

00:50:28   going to go to? No one else can make your radio chips, hahaha. So it would behoove Apple to go

00:50:34   to both of them and play them off each other. Who knows, maybe that's exactly what they're

00:50:37   doing and anybody who just keeps losing the contract, but from the outside it just seems

00:50:41   like they are now a single vendor source for their GPUs. That can't be healthy. I mean,

00:50:47   maybe the long-term plan is Apple is going to make its own GPUs because it's a core part

00:50:52   of their business, and they kind of have been doing that on the portable side. What was

00:50:56   it? Was this the first one that's all their own GPU with no imagination tech?

00:51:00   I believe so. Yeah, but they haven't done that on the Mac,

00:51:02   and they probably won't because for all the reasons that we've discussed before about

00:51:05   investment in the Mac, but it just still seems weird to me that it seems it's a much more

00:51:09   natural fit for Apple's business practices to be supporting both, but they haven't recently.

00:51:13   Well, I think there's a couple angles here. I mean, number one, like you might be right,

00:51:17   like AMD just might be winning all these bids because it certainly seems clear that Apple

00:51:21   has a pretty good relationship with AMD and for things like if you look at the 2013 trash

00:51:27   and Mac Pro, those were like total custom GPUs,

00:51:30   like just for that, that AMD made at Apple's order.

00:51:35   So there's clearly a lot of, a good relationship there

00:51:38   where AMD will probably make Apple

00:51:40   pretty much whatever they ask for,

00:51:42   which is, and the pricing that they give Apple

00:51:46   appears to be pretty good.

00:51:47   Like if you look at the workstation GPU pricing

00:51:49   that AMD charges, and then you look at what Apple

00:51:53   gives you in the stock configuration of the Mac Pro

00:51:55   on the iMac Pro, it does seem like AMD is giving Apple

00:51:59   a pretty good deal, so it could just be that.

00:52:01   But you're right that Apple does have two suppliers

00:52:04   for a lot of things.

00:52:06   One of the big ones that they don't is Intel

00:52:09   for their CPUs.

00:52:10   And maybe, ironically, the winner of that bid otherwise

00:52:15   would be AMD, but maybe they have a similar relationship

00:52:20   with AMD on the GPU side that they have with Intel

00:52:24   the CPU side, which is kind of this assured exclusivity in exchange for their good relationship

00:52:32   with AMD.

00:52:33   >> The difference is that Intel can give them the very best chips of that kind in the world,

00:52:38   whereas AMD at various times cannot.

00:52:40   And although this also brings in a topic that kept getting pushed down in the show notes,

00:52:43   but the several weeks ago or months ago deal where Intel is bundling AMD GPUs and sort

00:52:49   of like, not in the same die, but like in the same package.

00:52:53   And so that's an interesting synergy between Apple's two favored vendors.

00:52:57   And Intel, it makes some sense to me that Apple's going with Intel.

00:53:02   There's that relationship and there's the IBM, even more so than AMD, has proven that

00:53:07   they will make one-off custom chips for Apple like in the MacBook Air back in the old days.

00:53:11   And there's a lot of speculation that the reason Intel put so much work into its internal

00:53:17   GPUs with the embedded DRAM and all that stuff is because that's what Apple wanted them to

00:53:21   do.

00:53:22   I'm sure Apple likes your relationship where they have a big say in what products get generated.

00:53:27   And honestly, the competitor to Intel is not particularly competitive, and we get back

00:53:33   to, again, Apple probably wants to just make its own chips if it ever comes to that.

00:53:39   But the difference in that scenario is there is no software that only runs accelerated

00:53:45   on AMD CPUs, right?

00:53:49   Like it's not the NVIDIA situation where there's whole classes of software that are written

00:53:52   and that Intel doesn't support it or whatever.

00:53:55   - And you know, overall, there is a huge difference

00:53:58   in the results here, as you briefly alluded to.

00:54:01   Intel, if you are Intel exclusive for your PC CPUs,

00:54:05   you're fine, because the vast majority of the time,

00:54:09   Intel is the leader in that race,

00:54:11   usually by a pretty big margin.

00:54:13   AMD's CPU business has been second run,

00:54:16   basically since the Pentium 4.

00:54:18   It had a good run there for a little while

00:54:20   was king, but then it wasn't.

00:54:22   So if it was the other way around,

00:54:24   if Apple had this great relationship with AMD for the CPUs,

00:54:28   and would never use Intel CPUs,

00:54:31   they'd have a pretty big problem.

00:54:33   They just wouldn't be very competitive a lot of the time.

00:54:35   And the problem is they now have that problem

00:54:38   on the GPU side.

00:54:39   On the GPU side, I think they do okay with power per watt,

00:54:43   but they don't have the sheer performance edge

00:54:46   that they would have if Nvidia

00:54:49   was their only supplier, or if they would use both

00:54:52   like they used to.

00:54:53   It used to be that every generation of a Mac or a MacBook Pro

00:54:57   they would alternate between which vendor they were

00:55:00   supplying, just whoever had the most compelling one

00:55:02   that they could get in a volume or whatever else.

00:55:05   But by going seemingly AMD only for GPUs for at least

00:55:08   the last few years, I think it is really starting

00:55:11   to hurt them, especially at the high end.

00:55:14   I've heard from so many people who see the news

00:55:17   about the iMac Pro or the Mac Pro and just write it off

00:55:21   as sorry, we can't do that because it doesn't support CUDA.

00:55:24   And the only thing that might be an escape valve here

00:55:29   is external GPU support.

00:55:32   I think with Thunderbolt 3 now supporting external GPU boxes

00:55:37   that might be their answer.

00:55:38   Like it might be like we're gonna keep using AMD

00:55:42   for our main GPUs but if you're a pro customer

00:55:44   and you want a CUDA card for your work,

00:55:47   maybe putting it in a Thunderbolt chassis is close enough.

00:55:51   - Yeah, the benchmark still,

00:55:53   especially for these applications that need this,

00:55:55   like that's where the bandwidth actually does come in.

00:55:57   Doesn't come in in games probably.

00:55:58   If you're just interested in games,

00:56:00   you can probably get away with any GPU.

00:56:02   But for all these fancy computational things

00:56:05   that actually send a lot of data back and forth,

00:56:06   Thunderbolt isn't, you know,

00:56:08   it's not even close to the bandwidth of an internal card.

00:56:11   I think Barefeats also has done benchmarks with that too.

00:56:13   like you know let's try a MacBook Pro with an eGPU versus the iMac Pro with its internal

00:56:19   versus a good old cheese grater with some $900 Nvidia graphic card shoved into this

00:56:25   ancient internals from 2010 or 11 and the stupid cheese grater wins every time because

00:56:31   it's got an internal GPU with more bandwidth than everybody else and it's got the fastest,

00:56:35   the latest card from Nvidia.

00:56:37   And so like I said when the person originally asked the question would the Mac Pro be a

00:56:40   a failed product. I don't think so. I mean, it's silly that Apple won't support it if

00:56:45   it's like some weird political reason or whatever, but whatever, you know, if you buy a computer

00:56:51   with the fastest available GPU, next year it's not the fastest GPU anymore. And so if

00:56:56   you just pretend every Mac Pro you're buying is already a year old, as long as you can

00:56:59   either A, upgrade it so that every single year you can buy a faster GPU or B, that Apple

00:57:06   people revises it, and so every year if you bought a new one it has a faster GPU in it.

00:57:10   Like the worst situation is they put it out with a competitive pretty fast GPU that may

00:57:14   actually by the way be faster in your particular thing, because if you're not running games

00:57:18   and you're not running a CUDA accelerator application, sometimes the AMD GPU is the

00:57:22   fastest. It really depends on what you're doing. But the trick is you need some way

00:57:26   to stay on that performance path. You can't have the fastest one and then just never offer

00:57:30   another GPU for three years and not have it be upgradeable. So the people need some way

00:57:35   every year reap the benefits of the embarrassing parallelism of the graphics world.

00:57:41   And that's what the Mac Pro has to deliver.

00:57:43   If it can't deliver Nvidia, that's a bummer for some people, but what it has to deliver

00:57:48   is the ability to get back on the GPU train.

00:57:53   You can put in the all-aboard screen from Crazy Train right here, Marco.

00:57:58   All aboard!

00:57:59   (maniacal laughter)

00:58:02   Oh, I was gonna put on Back on the Train by Phish.

00:58:05   ♪ Took me a long time to get back on the train ♪

00:58:10   - Oh, no, I do not approve of that.

00:58:14   Crazy train.

00:58:15   Every podcast needs a Viper slap.

00:58:17   (motor whirring)

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01:00:04   I actually had a call with Apple PR last week

01:00:11   about the iMac Pro after we recorded.

01:00:13   - What?

01:00:14   - Did you get a call, Casey?

01:00:15   I didn't get a call.

01:00:16   - I did not get a call.

01:00:17   Well, of course I didn't get a call.

01:00:18   I mean, come on.

01:00:19   - You sounded like the biggest iMac Pro fans

01:00:21   that figured they would call Casey, you know?

01:00:23   (laughing)

01:00:24   - Yeah, Casey has a review unit.

01:00:25   - That would be the ultimate troll.

01:00:27   Oh my God, would that be amazing?

01:00:29   But no, I have received no calls of any sort.

01:00:32   I am not special.

01:00:33   - Well, anyway, they reached out to me

01:00:36   and said they wanted to schedule a call.

01:00:38   I was very pleasantly surprised.

01:00:40   And so I prepared some questions

01:00:42   and I didn't really know what to expect,

01:00:44   but it was really nice.

01:00:46   It was really pretty open, pretty laid back.

01:00:49   I mean, and to set the expectations a little bit,

01:00:53   sometimes people will get mad at,

01:00:55   like somebody like when John Gruber has his podcast

01:00:59   where he'll occasionally have an Apple executive on,

01:01:01   some people get mad that he doesn't ask certain questions.

01:01:04   Like things like, "When's the next Mac Pro coming?"

01:01:07   'Cause the reality is,

01:01:09   Apple's not gonna tell you about future products.

01:01:11   It's kind of a waste of a question.

01:01:13   Like if you're only given a limited amount of time,

01:01:15   it's a waste of time to ask them questions

01:01:17   they are unlikely to answer,

01:01:19   or likely to give you the answer you want.

01:01:23   asking about when future products are coming

01:01:26   or really asking anything about future products

01:01:29   is a waste of time, so I didn't.

01:01:31   I'm sure someone's gonna be mad and write in

01:01:34   because of something I didn't ask,

01:01:35   but that was generally,

01:01:37   there might be things I just didn't think about,

01:01:39   but generally there were a lot of things that I didn't ask

01:01:41   because the real question,

01:01:44   even if it wasn't phrased a certain way,

01:01:46   you can tell the real question

01:01:47   is really about a future product.

01:01:49   So for example, I wanted to ask about

01:01:52   why are there so many USB-A ports

01:01:54   and a card reader on the back?

01:01:56   But I knew that's really a question about the MacBook Pro.

01:01:59   - That was my question.

01:02:01   So you didn't ask that?

01:02:02   That was my first thing to ask you.

01:02:03   You didn't ask my question?

01:02:04   - I actually did kind of ask it,

01:02:06   but I didn't get the response that was like,

01:02:09   well, our Pro customers hated the MacBook Pro.

01:02:11   Like, no, it wasn't like that.

01:02:12   It was basically explaining that we offered the ports

01:02:15   as many as we could for our Pro customers,

01:02:17   et cetera, that kind of thing.

01:02:18   - Yeah, no, that question, those type of questions,

01:02:21   you can't ask them about future things, you can only ask them about the product. So basically

01:02:24   that's the only way you ever even get anything is to say, "Why does product that we're talking

01:02:30   about right now have a feature?" Right? So you can't even say, "Why does the iMac Pro

01:02:37   have USB-A ports and the MacBook Pro doesn't?" You have to just say, "I noticed there's a

01:02:42   lot of USB-A ports in the back. Why are those there?" Or like, "Why does it have them?"

01:02:46   And to give them the opportunity to give their canned PR answer. And if they don't have a

01:02:49   camp here and said because they thought no one would ever ask that, then they have to

01:02:53   think on their feet and maybe you get a little bit of insight. But sometimes they're very

01:02:56   forthcoming about, you know, like they could say there's some specific customers that we

01:03:00   talked to, they have really important USPA peripherals, and we thought like you never

01:03:03   know what they're going to say, and that's a way to get legit information out of it.

01:03:06   You just have to know how to phrase it, not as "this computer doesn't have them, why

01:03:10   does the iMac Pro have them?" because that's not going to put them in the right frame of

01:03:13   mind to give you any good info.

01:03:14   - Right, exactly.

01:03:16   Anyway, it's very clear that they really are

01:03:19   very heavily focused on developers for this machine.

01:03:24   You know, it wasn't immediately obvious

01:03:25   when the PR first came out, like on whatever day it was

01:03:28   that all the embargoes were done,

01:03:29   like the first week review units.

01:03:31   It wasn't incredibly obvious then,

01:03:32   because everything that came out first was all YouTubers.

01:03:36   And so we all thought, myself included,

01:03:38   wow, they just gave it to YouTubers?

01:03:39   That's kind of, I guess that's understandable.

01:03:42   But then as it turned out later that day,

01:03:44   We saw a bunch of tweets and blog posts,

01:03:47   many of which were from developers.

01:03:49   And it's very clear that they actually

01:03:51   were reaching out to a lot of developers for this,

01:03:53   and developers just aren't that good at being at minute one

01:03:57   after an embargo and stuff like that,

01:03:58   'cause developers are not usually reviewers or journalists.

01:04:02   So it's kinda like trying to coordinate cats

01:04:05   to all do something.

01:04:07   Although I still believe that cats are all a hive mind

01:04:09   and they're all the same cat,

01:04:10   just different visions of the same cat.

01:04:12   - Oh my goodness.

01:04:13   - Yeah, very strong focus on developers here.

01:04:15   They really, you could tell that they worked

01:04:18   with a lot of developers in development,

01:04:20   they talked to a lot of developers,

01:04:21   they clearly cared a lot about developer needs.

01:04:24   'Cause a lot of these are gonna sell to high-end developers.

01:04:27   They're gonna sell to just people like me

01:04:29   who are willing to spend the money

01:04:31   on a very, very fast machine for app development.

01:04:33   They're gonna sell to VR developers, hopefully,

01:04:37   and high-end developers, content creators, et cetera.

01:04:40   So they were very concerned about making sure

01:04:42   that this was a good machine for developers.

01:04:45   And I really respect that.

01:04:46   And even though, you know, I'm a little bit biased in that

01:04:49   because I'm a developer and this worked out for me

01:04:51   'cause they wanted to talk to me.

01:04:52   So obviously I'm a little bit biased,

01:04:54   but I thought that was a really good angle.

01:04:56   They seemed sincere about it.

01:04:57   They seemed like they had really done their homework,

01:04:58   done their diligence, and done their research.

01:05:00   And for instance, like one of the things was

01:05:03   that Tencore, they find is the most ideal configuration

01:05:07   for most developer workflows.

01:05:09   And they know this because they actually did tests

01:05:10   and worked with people and figured out what people do.

01:05:13   And they were able to tell that usually after

01:05:16   about the 10 core mark, today's tools tend to not use

01:05:21   many of the cores after that,

01:05:22   or you're bottlenecked by other things like IO.

01:05:25   So that made total sense.

01:05:27   One of the things I asked about,

01:05:28   'cause last show we had a lot of discussion

01:05:31   about the thermal design of the iMac Pro,

01:05:34   and about the idea that they were downclocking

01:05:37   the two base CPUs by like 10% or something

01:05:40   at their base clocks.

01:05:42   And we were kind of saying,

01:05:44   Jon had a lot of thoughts about it,

01:05:45   and kind of saying like,

01:05:46   why drop down the performance to fit in the enclosure

01:05:50   that nobody was asking you to fit it in?

01:05:53   So I asked a lot about this,

01:05:54   and they were pretty unwavering about that.

01:05:59   They didn't cram it in here unnecessarily.

01:06:04   they tried to see if they could fit workstation components

01:06:08   into this case and they could.

01:06:10   You know, they did a lot of redesigning of the thermal,

01:06:12   so like, because there is no 3.5 inch disk offered

01:06:17   in the iMac Pro, that frees up a pretty large block

01:06:20   of pretty premium space right in the middle.

01:06:23   And you know, 'cause 3.5 inch disks compared

01:06:25   to the internals of an iMac are huge.

01:06:28   And it certainly does seem like they have filled

01:06:30   a lot of that space with like, heat sink basically.

01:06:32   So, 'cause it certainly has a massive heat sink apparatus

01:06:36   back there from the pictures.

01:06:37   So, the impression I got from this question is that

01:06:40   they didn't have to compromise

01:06:44   to fit the workstation parts into this case.

01:06:47   They designed it, it fit, and there seems to be headroom,

01:06:50   which I get to in a little bit.

01:06:52   - So, what did they say about the downclocking?

01:06:54   We had some feedback about that.

01:06:56   So, there's the base CPUs that you talked about,

01:06:58   but there's also the GPUs, which I didn't know

01:07:00   whether they were downclocking,

01:07:01   I speculated that maybe they'd be 90% downclock, but someone emailed the show to say they're

01:07:05   actually 83% downclock versus what they would be like if you took that same card and put

01:07:10   it in a PC.

01:07:11   And so, and also one other bit of feedback about downclocking specifically the GPUs,

01:07:16   again, I don't know if the providence of this information is sound or not, but someone emailed

01:07:22   to suggest that AMD has been optimistic with the clock speeds and that really if you run

01:07:28   them at the "rated speed" that it shortens their life and Apple cares more about them

01:07:33   so that they just buy, you know, they just always run them slightly downclocked anyway

01:07:36   just because if they don't they'll have reliability problems.

01:07:39   I don't know if that's trash can fallout or just total BS or just speculation or whatever,

01:07:43   but anyway all we know is the numbers we can look at and apparently if you buy this exact

01:07:50   card from AMD and it's on a regular card slot the iMac is running them 83% slower which

01:07:56   which is not insignificant.

01:07:59   So when they say, can we fit it?

01:08:01   Yes, they could fit it.

01:08:02   But if you can fit it by downclocking and using slower

01:08:06   speed things, did you really fit it,

01:08:09   or did you have to compromise on something?

01:08:11   I feel like their answer to you was just

01:08:12   rephrasing the question.

01:08:13   Like, why did you fit everything inside the case?

01:08:15   We wanted to see if we could fit everything inside.

01:08:16   Yeah, but why?

01:08:18   The real question is, why didn't you make a new case?

01:08:20   And the reason there is we didn't want

01:08:22   to spend that much money on it.

01:08:23   It would be a lot of design time.

01:08:25   There's other reasons that they're probably not going to tell you of why they didn't design a new case because surely it is

01:08:30   Faster to market and cost them less money in less time and less everything to use the same external design

01:08:37   Probably get to well that I was gonna say they get to use the same visa amounts

01:08:40   But they did change that part of the case, so I don't know it's still slightly

01:08:44   Mysterious to me, but anyway that from as far as we can tell you take those same parts and put them in an ugly

01:08:51   boxy PC and you can get them all to run at faster speeds or use higher bin parts.

01:08:56   Yeah, I mean, the GPU, I honestly, I don't have any qualifications to talk about GPUs.

01:09:02   So I didn't ask really anything about them because I don't know anything about GPUs.

01:09:06   But on the CPU part, as Gerber points out a lot, like, Apple doesn't usually lie.

01:09:12   Like you know, they'll spin things a certain way if they want to, but they don't usually

01:09:16   outright lie.

01:09:17   Like, usually if they tell you a straight out answer, that is the truth.

01:09:21   And in this case, they were very clear

01:09:23   that they didn't need to change the case.

01:09:25   And there's some thermal stuff that I'll get to

01:09:28   in a few minutes that I think probably supports that theory

01:09:32   if it ends up panning out that way.

01:09:36   On the subject of the CPU downclocking,

01:09:38   so I did some research before the call

01:09:39   and I discovered that it's only the eight and 10 core

01:09:43   that are downclocked from their retail speeds,

01:09:45   from the retail parts.

01:09:47   The 14 and 18 are identical.

01:09:49   They are all rated at the same TDP,

01:09:52   so the same heat capacity of 140 watts.

01:09:54   They all are the same.

01:09:56   The eight and 10 core chips are special chips

01:10:00   that were made by Intel just for Apple's OEM use here.

01:10:03   That's why they even have different model numbers.

01:10:05   They have a B on the end,

01:10:06   and they're like slightly different numbers

01:10:07   than their counterparts.

01:10:09   If you look, I'll link to the Wikipedia table

01:10:10   that lists all this guy like Xeons.

01:10:13   So you can see these are special chips

01:10:15   that are only used by Apple,

01:10:17   and so far only in the iMac Pro.

01:10:20   Their answer to that was basically

01:10:23   they are the custom part from Intel

01:10:25   and that's just how the clock speed's

01:10:26   been down for these chips.

01:10:28   One of the things they wanted to make sure of

01:10:30   is that all of the processors that are available

01:10:33   in the iMac Pro have the same AVX-512 processing capacity.

01:10:38   These are the new instructions that are,

01:10:40   I think, new to these chips,

01:10:41   or at least new to the current generation of Xeons.

01:10:45   These are super high end vector instructions

01:10:48   for certain types of math that can be very well optimized.

01:10:51   Some of the Xeons that are in this family

01:10:53   only have one compute unit.

01:10:55   The high end ones have two.

01:10:57   Apple made sure that all of theirs have two.

01:11:01   That being said, I looked up the specs

01:11:02   for the corresponding parts that are slightly higher clocked

01:11:05   and they have two also.

01:11:07   So I'm not entirely sure what that means right now.

01:11:09   That could have been a later change

01:11:11   in the release cycle for Intel

01:11:13   where they decided to put two on those

01:11:15   or they could have been referencing different parts

01:11:16   they could have used but didn't.

01:11:18   But the important thing that I got from the call

01:11:21   is that they didn't see this as an artificial lowering

01:11:24   of the clock speed, this is just how they were binned out

01:11:26   for their custom part, and they made sure

01:11:28   their custom parts all had the same AVX-512

01:11:31   dual processing units.

01:11:33   - What's custom about them besides the AVX stuff?

01:11:37   - I don't know.

01:11:38   I can ask them.

01:11:39   I mean, they're friendly, they'll probably answer

01:11:41   an email if I ask them.

01:11:43   So I think our concerns about the thermals

01:11:46   are probably unwarranted because what I heard from them,

01:11:51   which confirms what I heard from other people

01:11:53   who were at their demos or who have had review units so far,

01:11:56   it sounds like there is a lot of thermal headroom.

01:12:01   They had certain demos at these events

01:12:03   that were running on loops all day long

01:12:05   that were stressing all the CPU cores

01:12:07   at like 60% or higher all the time

01:12:10   and that you couldn't even really hear the fan.

01:12:13   And what I was told basically is that

01:12:16   the way the thermals work out in this generation,

01:12:18   that you can hammer the CPU is pretty hard

01:12:22   and you probably won't hear the fan spin up.

01:12:25   You will pretty much only hear it get loud

01:12:27   if you're hammering the CPUs and the GPUs.

01:12:31   And this actually is plausible to me

01:12:32   because this is actually not that different

01:12:34   from how the Skylake laptops work.

01:12:36   The Skylake and what is it, Ivy Bridge?

01:12:40   I already forgot.

01:12:41   So the current laptop generation compared to the old one

01:12:44   that I'm still holding onto is way quieter under CPU load.

01:12:47   It doesn't spin up for nearly as long

01:12:51   and it cools down much faster and everything else.

01:12:53   So given that these are the Xeons from the Skylake family,

01:12:56   that actually I think makes sense.

01:12:59   That's believable to me.

01:13:01   And it does seem like they've designed this

01:13:03   with a lot of thermal headroom.

01:13:04   So for the moment, having not used one of these yet,

01:13:08   having not owned one of these yet,

01:13:10   it does sound like they are not concerned about thermals.

01:13:14   And all the demo units and all the review units

01:13:16   out there so far have shown pretty awesome

01:13:17   thermal and noise performance.

01:13:20   So, so far it seems, tentatively,

01:13:22   like it might be pretty awesome

01:13:23   on the thermal and heat front,

01:13:24   and therefore that also supports their position

01:13:28   that these aren't really downclocked

01:13:30   for meaningful performance reasons.

01:13:32   - Well, you keep excluding the GPU

01:13:33   because you didn't want to talk about it,

01:13:34   but it's possibly more than half of the heat in here,

01:13:37   and certainly half of the equation.

01:13:39   Like if the, if the, if this info from this, and it's just from a listener, because I don't

01:13:43   know the clock speeds of this GPU and stuff, but if these GPUs really are at 83% of the

01:13:47   clock speed that if you were to buy the same card and put it in a PC and get the fastest

01:13:51   one, like why would you choose to do that if you've got the thermal headroom?

01:13:55   It doesn't, you know, especially if it's like literally the same part downclocked and not

01:13:59   just binned differently for pricing thing.

01:14:01   Like I don't quite understand how bad math works out.

01:14:04   So it sounds like for the CPU we have some good information on it and certainly you've

01:14:09   You've been doing things to stress the CPU and it seems like there's plenty of room,

01:14:12   but kind of like in the trash can, if you happen to do something that uses them both

01:14:15   at once, what does that do to things?

01:14:17   Like, you know, why?

01:14:19   The explanation for why the CPUs are downclocked is like, oh, that's just how they bend out

01:14:23   and maybe they had to be slower clocked because they've got the two AVX units and the normal

01:14:28   ones of that size didn't.

01:14:29   That kind of makes some kind of sense, right?

01:14:31   But why, on the other side of the case, where the other fan is blowing into, you know, well,

01:14:37   Actually, both fans are rolling through the same heat sink.

01:14:38   But anyway, on the other side of the case where the GPU is, why, if that stuff actually

01:14:43   is clocked down, and by the way, if you know the exact clock speeds of the GPU's CPU and

01:14:49   memory buses, please send it to the show.

01:14:54   That doesn't match up with the idea that there's plenty of thermal headroom, because especially

01:14:58   like on the high-end part, why wouldn't you run those at their full speed?

01:15:02   Yeah, and honestly, again, I just don't know whether I'm at full speed or not. I will say

01:15:08   that, like, you know, they didn't, nothing they said indicated that it couldn't handle

01:15:11   stressing both the CPU and GPU, just that you'd be more likely to hear it.

01:15:15   Yeah, I don't know. And I would imagine the demos, they should actually did stress both

01:15:19   of them. You know, we haven't been there for the demos, but I think the demos probably

01:15:21   did stress both the GPU and the CPU, so maybe those are a good example. And, you know, and

01:15:25   maybe, again, they traded the quiet for, like, look, if we clock this at 83% of max speed,

01:15:31   We can just be quiet all the time no matter what and isn't that a better Pro experience

01:15:35   than allowing it to get noisy, you know, for this particular case.

01:15:39   Because maybe some people are using applications that are stressing both of them all the time

01:15:43   and it's not a great experience for the Pro Mac whose fans you can't escape by putting

01:15:48   it under the desk to be noisy.

01:15:50   Like I can come up with all sorts of reasons why they can explain this because again this

01:15:53   is the compact Pro machine.

01:15:55   It's not the Mac Pro, right?

01:15:59   but I don't know which of those explanations

01:16:03   that I could come up on my own is the right one, if any.

01:16:06   - You know, and maybe, I think what you just said

01:16:09   about kind of like hitting like a constant load minimum

01:16:13   heat performance kind of thing,

01:16:14   that might be related to the way the CPUs are clocked,

01:16:17   because I think it says something that

01:16:20   these all have the same TDP, so like when driven fully,

01:16:24   like at maximum, all the cores stressed,

01:16:26   They will all cap out at the same heat output

01:16:29   at all the core counts.

01:16:30   However, only the bottom two chips

01:16:33   had their base clocks reduced

01:16:35   from the Intel retail parts.

01:16:37   So maybe it really is like a heat and noise thing

01:16:39   because the way turbo boost works

01:16:42   with all modern Intel chips,

01:16:44   if it has thermal headroom,

01:16:46   it will increase its clock speed

01:16:49   until it hits a certain maximum that it won't go past

01:16:51   or until it starts getting too hot

01:16:53   or until more cores get engaged and then it starts to reduce the overall ceiling on them

01:16:59   so that it keeps below that threshold. But it doesn't ever go below the base speed.

01:17:04   And the turbo clock is reduced. On those two that they've modified, the 8 and 10 core,

01:17:09   they did reduce the turbo boost max speed as well, so I don't know what that means in

01:17:14   this theory, but by reducing the base clock, it's still going to turbo up a lot when it's

01:17:20   in use, but it's gonna run at the reduced base clock speed

01:17:23   when it's not doing heavy lifting.

01:17:27   And so maybe that is primarily there for lower noise

01:17:31   and heat when it's most of the time doing pretty light work.

01:17:36   - So really, all of our, well maybe not all,

01:17:40   but a lot of our qualms from last episode,

01:17:42   maybe a little premature.

01:17:45   - Yeah, I mean, yeah, the answer really is

01:17:46   we don't really know yet until we really get these machines,

01:17:49   Well, until I get this machine,

01:17:52   you guys aren't getting it.

01:17:53   But although, well, I'll get to that in a minute,

01:17:55   but until we really get these machines,

01:17:57   we really can't be incredibly sure

01:17:59   about any of these things.

01:18:00   I am hopeful now, after having this call,

01:18:04   and also having heard from the reviewers

01:18:06   and the people who were at these events,

01:18:09   it doesn't sound like there's reason

01:18:10   to be concerned about the thermals yet.

01:18:12   And that's pretty promising.

01:18:13   I'm very happy to hear that,

01:18:15   because that was my big concern going into this.

01:18:18   it seems like there's a lot of headroom

01:18:20   and that they didn't need to make the case bigger

01:18:22   and make it full of holes like what Jon wanted.

01:18:25   So we'll see if that actually pans out,

01:18:26   but I think it's plausible.

01:18:29   I asked a few more things, kind of like side notes here.

01:18:33   On the T2, one thing I thought was very interesting

01:18:37   is that it is indeed the SSD controller,

01:18:40   like it is the disk controller,

01:18:41   and in all of the configurations,

01:18:44   not just the four terabyte one,

01:18:46   it uses dual SSD modules,

01:18:49   and it uses them in parallel for performance.

01:18:51   And so even if you get the terabyte,

01:18:54   that's just using two 512s.

01:18:56   And with the T2 controlling it,

01:18:58   it isn't abstracted to the OS as two disks,

01:19:02   the way if you just plug in like a two disk enclosure

01:19:04   without any kind of RAID functionality,

01:19:05   it shows up as two disks, it isn't like that.

01:19:07   It shows up as one disk,

01:19:09   the controller shows it as one device,

01:19:11   but behind the scenes, it is actually using two in parallel.

01:19:14   It's one of the reasons why they're so frickin' fast.

01:19:16   We got anonymous feedback about that, by the way, about the dual module thing.

01:19:19   And like, I think it just, what it boils down to is like, you can just do the benchmark.

01:19:23   Look at the performance.

01:19:24   It's like three gigabytes per second read and write roughly.

01:19:26   So I think it's a little bit less for write, right?

01:19:28   So the debate about single versus dual, the feedback we got is that it's not actually

01:19:33   a dual module.

01:19:34   It's just one module that's split into two bits of silicon.

01:19:36   But the bottom line is that, what is it, like four PCI express lanes going to this controller?

01:19:40   Yes.

01:19:41   Like you, you get the results you get and you know, whether it's because they're dual

01:19:45   or it's just one good way, they could have put it on a single chip for different packaging

01:19:49   reasons is that they are giving you the PCI express lanes to get maximum performance out

01:19:54   of the SSDs and that the performance is better than any other Mac, essentially.

01:19:59   And did you ask them about the encryption stuff as well?

01:20:02   - A little bit, yeah.

01:20:03   I mean, I didn't have a lot of questions on it 'cause I didn't know enough to ask really

01:20:06   about, but yeah, it is certainly, it's doing all the encryption in hardware, like in the

01:20:11   T2.

01:20:12   So there's two different types of encryption going on here.

01:20:16   There's the hardware encryption,

01:20:17   kind of like what iOS devices have,

01:20:19   where like the actual data on the Flash is encrypted,

01:20:22   even if you're not using FileVault, it is encrypted.

01:20:25   And if you take that SSD stick or whatever it is,

01:20:29   out of the iMac Pro and put it in some kind of enclosure

01:20:32   or another iMac Pro to try to read it, you won't be able to,

01:20:35   because the key to decrypt it is, you know,

01:20:37   secure enclave style stored on that T2.

01:20:40   the reading of the Flash is tied to that hardware.

01:20:43   So the only way to read the data on the Flash

01:20:46   is if you can get that computer to read it for you.

01:20:48   If you do things like set a firmware password or something,

01:20:50   obviously that's going to provide pretty good security

01:20:52   on that so it can't boot other things.

01:20:55   I actually, I didn't ask too much about

01:20:57   what's different now with the new secure boot stuff

01:21:01   with things like firmware passwords and boot options

01:21:03   and whether it will boot external media

01:21:05   and stuff like that.

01:21:07   I know a lot of that has changed, mostly for the better.

01:21:10   it may be entirely for the better.

01:21:11   So I can't really talk about that

01:21:13   'cause I don't know enough about it yet.

01:21:14   So there's that level of encryption.

01:21:16   And you can also use FileVault on top of that.

01:21:20   And if you do use FileVault, its encryption instructions

01:21:24   are now hardware accelerated.

01:21:26   So that's not even running on the Xeon,

01:21:27   it's running on the T2.

01:21:29   It's not taxing the Xeon at all.

01:21:31   - Hardware accelerated, you got my pet peeve again.

01:21:34   Oh, now it's hardware accelerated.

01:21:36   Instead of being executed on hardware,

01:21:37   it'll be executed on hardware.

01:21:39   But, yeah, you got the important point is that you don't have to make the CPU won't

01:21:45   be involved in this.

01:21:46   So most people are speculating like, you know, what performance hit do you get for using

01:21:51   encryption with HFS+ or APFS?

01:21:54   And you could measure it and, you know, Apple's like it's really small or whatever.

01:21:57   And I think some testing has shown that the hit might actually be more with APFS than

01:22:01   it was with APFS+ whether it's because it's better encryption or whatever.

01:22:05   Theoretically, well first of all, assuredly, this will give you more CPU, because your

01:22:12   CPU won't be doing any encryption stuff.

01:22:14   None, zero.

01:22:15   It'll all be done by the T2, which is great.

01:22:17   I like the idea of these little custom co-processors handling this very specific function.

01:22:21   Surely they have instructions just for it, it's great.

01:22:23   The second possibility that someone will have to benchmark to find out is, okay, your CPU

01:22:28   is freed up.

01:22:29   Does the T2 do that encryption job faster than the Xeon used to, because it's a dedicated

01:22:34   type of thing.

01:22:35   If it does, that means there will be less of a performance

01:22:38   hit for enabling FileVault on an iMac Pro with T2,

01:22:41   and that's something we'll have to benchmark.

01:22:44   - I mean, I'm guessing there's probably some kind of

01:22:46   smart implementation detail where,

01:22:48   'cause like, it's already, in the T2's role

01:22:51   as the disk controller, you know,

01:22:54   and doing that hardware encryption the way iOS devices do,

01:22:57   it's already encrypting everything in and out

01:23:00   at full speed, even when FileVault's not on.

01:23:03   So I'm guessing by using FileVault,

01:23:06   you're probably just having another mode

01:23:09   of maybe of that same encryption

01:23:10   or having the keys combined in some way

01:23:12   or something like that.

01:23:13   I don't know the details enough to say, but--

01:23:15   - It could be, and if that's the case,

01:23:16   there'll be zero speed hit,

01:23:17   because it's doing it whether you have FileVault on or not,

01:23:19   and so this should be borne out by the benchmarks.

01:23:23   But it's an intriguing possibility.

01:23:24   This brings me back to the good old days

01:23:26   of Philips TriMedia accelerator.

01:23:29   You guys don't remember that, but--

01:23:30   - Nope.

01:23:31   There I have a very, even in the early days of Mac OS X, which maybe you were around for

01:23:35   and remember, the idea of Apple adding chips to Macs to make them faster in basically magical

01:23:43   ways.

01:23:44   It's like, yeah, you can just take a CPU and some RAM and a motherboard and throw them

01:23:48   together, but the Apple special sauce is they'll put special magic chips on there that will

01:23:51   make your Mac better.

01:23:52   This is the actual reality of the T2.

01:23:55   Apple made its own chip and threw it on there.

01:23:58   And I mean, even on Apple's own page, like the list of stuff this thing does in addition

01:24:01   into what we listed is image signal processing

01:24:04   for the front facing camera, audio controller,

01:24:07   of course the secure enclave, the encryption.

01:24:11   Oh, actually this is right from Apple's marketing page.

01:24:14   The data in your SSD is encrypted

01:24:15   using dedicated AES hardware

01:24:16   with no effect on the SSD's performance.

01:24:18   It's not clear whether they're talking about FileVault

01:24:20   or the other thing.

01:24:20   But yeah, they're actually doing something

01:24:25   that they have very rarely done in the past,

01:24:26   which is throwing a chip, a chip that nobody else has,

01:24:30   to their computer specifically to make them perform better.

01:24:33   And who doesn't like that?

01:24:33   That is a great pro feature.

01:24:36   And if it lets them, like, you know,

01:24:38   these are things that you should be able to measure.

01:24:40   If it lets them go faster on benchmarks

01:24:43   because the CPU is not involved at all

01:24:45   in any of the encryption on the disk stuff,

01:24:47   that's a clean win.

01:24:48   And if the T2S is rumored is heavily based

01:24:51   on an existing iPhone chip, that's a great reuse of IP.

01:24:56   Like they already did the work to design this chip

01:24:58   for their flagship product.

01:24:59   you can repurpose this chip and throw it in with a combination of a bunch of other stuff

01:25:04   and maybe even repurpose some software that you have to do, say, image processing from

01:25:07   the iPhone or whatever.

01:25:09   You know, and maybe disk controller stuff.

01:25:12   I don't know how much of that is shared with the iOS devices that might be using a similar

01:25:15   thing.

01:25:16   This is a smart way to make a better, faster computer, and I hope the Mac Pro has something

01:25:21   just like this, even though, you know, presumably doesn't have a front-facing camera or whatever.

01:25:25   And I think one of the things we said

01:25:27   when the Touch Bar was launched was,

01:25:30   this actually does show they are putting

01:25:32   significant engineering resources into the Mac still.

01:25:35   Not as much as we would like sometimes,

01:25:36   but clearly it isn't just sitting around

01:25:39   being completely neglected.

01:25:41   This wasn't like a half-assed update.

01:25:43   This was like a significant engineering effort

01:25:46   and with significant new things being put into it,

01:25:49   not just like a stock Intel motherboard and stock parts.

01:25:53   So, give them full credit where credit is due.

01:25:56   This is major engineering work going into the Mac.

01:25:58   And for a long time, it seemed like that wasn't happening.

01:26:00   So this is a nice change of the narrative,

01:26:04   and it's good to see results.

01:26:06   - One aspect of this integration, by the way,

01:26:09   of getting to the SSD specifically,

01:26:11   of great performance, the encryption at rest for free,

01:26:15   the secure enclave, this is from our anonymous source again.

01:26:21   This person says they feel quite confident stating there will never be a third-party

01:26:25   SSD upgrade for a T2-equipped Mac.

01:26:27   Because the integration is so tight, I mean, maybe it's tight down to being soldered in,

01:26:31   or maybe it's tight just down to, like, this is not something you can buy off the shelf.

01:26:35   There's tight integration between the storage and the controller and the encryption and

01:26:39   all that other stuff going on there.

01:26:42   That it is a very custom solution.

01:26:44   And that is very much like iOS devices, where no one considers, you know, upgrading the

01:26:49   storage you buy a 64 gig phone you're like oh I'll have to market upgrade it to 128.

01:26:53   No you won't because it's so integrated into like everything inside a phone is from day

01:26:59   one been so tied up with the whole security environment of phones and the T2 brings the

01:27:04   Mac closer to that ideal in good ways and bad we haven't gotten to the secure boot stuff

01:27:09   yet but like bringing closer to the ideal of a phone of being more resilient to hardware

01:27:15   attacks. Like the old adage in the world of desktop and even laptop computers is

01:27:20   physical access trumps all security. Even servers. Physical access trumps all

01:27:23   security. If you are physically there with the hardware, it doesn't really matter

01:27:26   what you've done security-wise because if you're physically there, there are so

01:27:29   many things that you can do to own that machine, right? With phones, the whole idea

01:27:37   has been to make them resilient to that old adage. Does physical access trump

01:27:40   security? Here you go, here's my phone. If Apple has done a good job, it should be

01:27:43   really hard for you to get anything out of it like anything at all aside from you maybe

01:27:48   like freezing the thing of liquid nitrogen and extracting the data from RAM but even

01:27:52   then it might be encrypted like you know so anyway the t2 and the associated secure boot

01:27:57   machinery and secure enclave and all that stuff are an attempt to bring the Mac more

01:28:01   into that direction for for good and bad mostly good in terms of security but bad in terms

01:28:08   of us as computer enthusiasts who occasionally screw up on our computers have gotten used

01:28:16   to the idea that physical access trumps all security is good for us when we mess up our

01:28:22   own computers.

01:28:23   Say, "Well, it's all messed up, but because I'm physically here in front of the computer,

01:28:26   I'm going to plug in this other drive-in boot from it."

01:28:28   Or, "I'm going to go in target disk mode and just pull the data off," or whatever, even

01:28:32   though I've hosed my OS install by messing with the bootloader or something.

01:28:35   Like there's always something we can do to save ourselves.

01:28:38   Not so much with an iPhone,

01:28:40   and maybe not so much with one of these iMac Pros either,

01:28:43   depending on how you have it configured.

01:28:45   - Yeah, and this is one of the reasons why

01:28:47   I would strongly advise, similar to the RAM argument,

01:28:52   don't assume you're gonna be able to upgrade these later.

01:28:54   You know, as you said, we heard from that anonymous tip,

01:28:57   they don't think that it's likely that we're gonna have

01:28:59   upgradable SSDs from third parties.

01:29:02   I didn't ask this during the call,

01:29:04   so I don't have any kind of official statement on this,

01:29:06   but I would guess the same thing.

01:29:09   It seems very likely that that's gonna be the case,

01:29:11   that I don't think you're gonna see

01:29:14   third-party T2 SSD modules.

01:29:17   And as we briefly discussed last week,

01:29:19   I don't think that's that different from how it is now.

01:29:22   Like, the last few generations of Macs that we've had,

01:29:26   you haven't had third-party SSD modules usually at all,

01:29:30   or if they do come, they come like years

01:29:32   after the machine is launched.

01:29:34   And they're usually very expensive

01:29:36   because they're like custom stuff from OWC

01:29:38   or something like that.

01:29:39   So like, if you can at all order your computer

01:29:42   with the disk space you need up front, do it.

01:29:45   And otherwise consider external expansion.

01:29:48   Because internal upgrades down the road

01:29:50   are just getting less and less likely

01:29:52   to be possible or affordable.

01:29:54   - So the secure boot stuff,

01:29:56   Cable did a bunch of tweets about it

01:29:58   'cause he got one too, right?

01:29:59   He's another developer who got one of these.

01:30:00   - Yeah, he got a review unit.

01:30:02   Oh yeah, that's right, he didn't just get a call, he actually got a computer, which

01:30:04   is cool.

01:30:05   So he did a bunch of tweets about it.

01:30:06   One of them was a screenshot of a new, I guess it's an app called Startup Security Utility,

01:30:13   and it's where you can enable and disable the firmware password, but it also has two

01:30:16   little sets of radio buttons, one called Secure Boot, and the options are Full Security, which

01:30:22   I don't know what the defaults are, but Full Security ensures that only the latest and

01:30:25   most secure software can be run, and this mode requires a network connection at software

01:30:29   installation time.

01:30:30   I'm a little bit confused about the details of that

01:30:32   because it ensures that only the latest

01:30:34   and most secure software can work.

01:30:35   Does that mean like if it's not the latest software,

01:30:36   it won't boot it, but it will force you to do an update

01:30:38   before it will even boot?

01:30:39   I don't know.

01:30:40   Anyway, medium security requires verifiable software to boot

01:30:44   but not the latest software.

01:30:45   So you can just keep using your old OS

01:30:47   and no security does not enforce any requirement.

01:30:49   So all of our Macs now fall under the category

01:30:52   as far as secure boot is concerned of no security.

01:30:56   Like if there's an interesting name

01:30:59   what Apple thinks of this thing. If you plug in a drive that has an OS that can boot your machine,

01:31:03   it will boot, right? It doesn't do any verification that that operating system is completely valid and

01:31:09   hasn't been rooted, and it sure doesn't care if it's the latest version. You can whatever,

01:31:13   like my 2008 Mac Pro, what did it ship with? Did it ship with Snow Leopard? Maybe before that.

01:31:19   Maybe it shipped with Leopard. Yeah, I think it shipped with Leopard. It'll boot Leopard right

01:31:22   now. It doesn't care that Leopard is ancient. So that's what Apple considers no security.

01:31:27   And there's also an option for external boot.

01:31:29   And you can select disallow booting from external media,

01:31:32   which is pretty straightforward.

01:31:34   It's like, oh, you messed up your computer?

01:31:36   You want to boot from another disk to try to save it?

01:31:38   Nope, not if you have this thing set.

01:31:40   Or the option to allow booting from external media.

01:31:42   So a lot of the T2 stuff is like, you know,

01:31:45   you can make your iMac much more like an iPhone,

01:31:48   or if you change these settings,

01:31:50   it can just be like a normal Mac has always been.

01:31:52   Now it's clear the direction Apple wants you to go in.

01:31:54   the top items and all these radio buttons are the most secure ones.

01:31:59   But there's an interesting TechNote help article that I'll put a link to that, like,

01:32:05   what do you do if you have your iMac Pro set to the most secure settings and you screw it up?

01:32:10   The recovery procedure, kind of like the recovery procedure when you screw up your phone

01:32:16   and you have to sort of go into DFU mode or whatever, the recovery procedure for your iMac Pro

01:32:20   Requires you to have another Mac and that you can connect to your iMac Pro

01:32:25   And if you think about it's like look

01:32:28   You know you always need some other thing to plug your thing into like when you put your phone in DFU mode if you don't

01:32:34   Literally have any other hardware it just sits there staring at you

01:32:37   But it's not it's not you need some other device to connect to do in the case of the Mac Pro

01:32:40   What you need to connect to it would be kind of needed you connected to an iPhone to recover it like it would download from

01:32:45   The internet the OS update and funnel it through

01:32:47   But anyway, this is the brave new world of security.

01:32:50   The whole point of all the secure boot software is so that your computer can verify that it

01:32:56   is running clean software.

01:33:00   Software that, you know, there's this sort of chain of trust that each thing in the chain

01:33:03   verifies the next thing.

01:33:04   What was it?

01:33:05   Cable had a good tweet about it.

01:33:07   The new chip means that storage encryption keys pass from the secure enclave to the hardware

01:33:12   encryption engine on chip.

01:33:13   Your key never leaves the chip and allows the hardware verification of the OS, the kernel,

01:33:17   the bootloader firmware, et cetera.

01:33:19   And each component in turn verifies the next.

01:33:21   So it's a chain of trust starting

01:33:23   with the secure enclave essentially.

01:33:25   So that each thing that runs next knows

01:33:30   that it is being kicked off from something that is secure.

01:33:32   And it's the way the phone security works

01:33:34   and it's the way the security works.

01:33:35   It's not like it's foolproof, like any security thing.

01:33:39   If there's a flaw, it can be exploited to get in.

01:33:41   That's how jailbreaks have always worked.

01:33:42   Like, it's not impenetrable, but it is a far cry

01:33:45   from the world of all the Macs that were sitting

01:33:47   in front of now, which is like la-di-da,

01:33:49   they'll boot whatever the heck you give them.

01:33:51   They have no idea if your operating system

01:33:53   has been root-kitted or whatever.

01:33:55   They have no idea how new it is when they're booting,

01:33:58   and this iMac changes all that.

01:34:01   - I wonder a little bit,

01:34:02   one of the problems that I have with High Sierra

01:34:05   is that it's pretty buggy still,

01:34:08   but yet Apple's really pushing it heavily

01:34:10   through the auto-update mechanism and stuff like that.

01:34:13   The idea that to have the best security,

01:34:16   you should be running the latest OS,

01:34:18   is often true, but not always true.

01:34:21   And sometimes running the latest OS has other downsides,

01:34:24   like certain things that are still broken,

01:34:26   or too different, or that break your workflow,

01:34:28   like dropping support for some old app that you use,

01:34:30   something like that.

01:34:32   I wonder how this mechanism will be useful in practice

01:34:35   if you want to still use the old OS for a while

01:34:38   because the new one isn't good enough yet,

01:34:40   or doesn't support the things you need to support yet.

01:34:42   Is this going to force you to upgrade

01:34:43   unless you turn down your security to the medium level?

01:34:45   - Yeah, you have to change down to medium security,

01:34:48   which, you know, they're loaded terms, full versus medium,

01:34:51   but for exactly the reasons you stated,

01:34:53   it's great that they give you these options.

01:34:54   I think you don't have to go to no security.

01:34:57   Unlike, for example, what is it,

01:34:59   what is the thing on the Mac called?

01:35:01   The thing that protects all your system files?

01:35:05   - System Integrity Protection, SIP?

01:35:07   - Yeah, there we go, SIP.

01:35:09   that you can either have that on or off.

01:35:12   And maybe there's some developer mode

01:35:13   that's kind of in between you there,

01:35:15   but very often it's like, look,

01:35:16   to use this fancy piece of software,

01:35:21   you have to disable system integrity protection.

01:35:23   And even I, who are willing to hack their Mac up

01:35:25   a little bit, I'm also like,

01:35:26   meh, really makes me rethink whether I want

01:35:29   to completely disable system integrity protection.

01:35:31   Should I like the protection,

01:35:32   the additional protection it provides?

01:35:36   Additionally, protection from myself screwing up

01:35:38   own computer by modifying system files, which I've done in the past, right? So it makes

01:35:43   me think twice about doing it. Having medium security where it requires verifiable software

01:35:47   to boot, meaning that it verifies that these are legit copies of everything, the bootloader,

01:35:52   the kernel, everything else, but does not require you to have the latest software, that's

01:35:57   the mode that I think is most appealing maybe all the time, but certainly when a new release

01:36:02   comes out. Because if the machine literally will refuse to boot until it updates itself,

01:36:07   That is a behavior that I think pro customers will not appreciate.

01:36:11   So again, I have no idea what the default is, but if you get one of these machines,

01:36:16   remember to use this utility and pick the option that makes the most sense for you.

01:36:21   Even if only, like, if it refused to boot until it had the latest and it literally had

01:36:25   to run the software update to High Sierra, for all you know, that is like causing the

01:36:28   latest version of Adobe Creative Suite not to launch.

01:36:33   If you're a pro machine that you use to do work every day, you come in one morning to

01:36:37   try to do work and it's like, "Oh, I won't even boot until I update myself."

01:36:42   And then after it boots, this application that you use on this all day doesn't launch

01:36:46   anymore because it's not yet compatible?

01:36:48   That's not a great experience.

01:36:51   Medium security sounds like a good compromise for most people.

01:36:54   And disallowed booting from external media?

01:36:57   Are you in an environment where physical security is actually that important to you, or do you

01:37:01   want the option of saving your own butt if you screw something up by plugging in an external

01:37:04   drive. I feel like I would leave that on allow booting from external media. But everyone's

01:37:09   security exposure and environment is different. Maybe you're working on the next Star Wars

01:37:14   movie and it's really important that if someone breaks into the office, they would have a

01:37:19   really difficult time getting your computer to boot from their external drive in target

01:37:23   disk mode so they can copy all your precious files off of it.

01:37:26   Alright, and then a couple other just little tidbits that I asked about or a little bit

01:37:30   of information I've picked up since then.

01:37:32   The quick thing, the PCI express layout.

01:37:35   I know this sounds really boring,

01:37:37   trust me there's a reason I'm saying it.

01:37:39   It has the GPU running on 16 lanes,

01:37:43   it has two Thunderbolt controllers

01:37:44   running on four lanes each, so eight total,

01:37:46   and the 10 gig ethernet port runs on four lanes.

01:37:49   All those are directed to the CPU,

01:37:50   everything else including the T2 is done through the DMI,

01:37:54   which goes to what used to be called the Southbridge,

01:37:57   I don't know if Intel still calls it the Southbridge anymore

01:38:00   It's like the controller on the chipset that controls

01:38:03   like USB and all sorts of other lower speed peripherals

01:38:07   than the GPU.

01:38:10   The T2 is the largest bandwidth consumer through that bus,

01:38:15   and the DMI bus seems to have approximately the same

01:38:20   bandwidth as four PCI express lanes, and you can see that

01:38:24   in the benchmarks of the SSD, that basically the SSD

01:38:28   clearly can run with the bandwidth of four PCI Express lanes,

01:38:32   so that does seem to be pretty good.

01:38:34   I didn't ask, 'cause I got this information after the call,

01:38:37   so I didn't ask why the T2 wasn't connected

01:38:40   to one of the CPU lanes directly,

01:38:43   because the CPU has 48 lanes,

01:38:46   and by my count, only 28 of them are being used,

01:38:49   or at least only 28 that I can account for.

01:38:51   But the reason I bring this up,

01:38:52   a lot of people look at this machine,

01:38:54   and they wonder, why do we have to pay for Xeons?

01:38:57   "Why can't Apple just ship a cheap tower that I want

01:39:00   "that has an i7 chip in it or whatever?"

01:39:03   This is one of the reasons.

01:39:05   So the best i7 that you can get in, say, the regular iMac,

01:39:09   has 16 lanes from the CPU total.

01:39:13   This is using 28 of them.

01:39:16   This shows you, like, if you drop down

01:39:19   to one of the consumer CPUs,

01:39:22   you would be required to cut throughput,

01:39:24   to cut possible bandwidth on some of these components.

01:39:28   And maybe you won't notice, like some people argue,

01:39:30   well you can cut a GPU down to X8, down from X16,

01:39:33   and it's fine.

01:39:35   Well yeah, maybe it's fine, but is it the best it can be?

01:39:37   Like, you know, getting to John's argument,

01:39:39   like is that the best or is it fine?

01:39:42   So it is very clear that like, they are using

01:39:45   the throughput of the Xeon here.

01:39:47   And one of the reasons I was thinking about this

01:39:49   was kind of trying to do some research on like,

01:39:52   do they have enough free PCI Express lanes

01:39:55   coming off the CPU in a theoretical Mac Pro

01:40:00   that they could offer multiple card slots

01:40:02   while also supporting more than one GPU

01:40:06   with an X16 connectivity lane?

01:40:09   And the answer appears to be yes.

01:40:11   It appears to be they can probably offer two X16 GPUs

01:40:16   and still have enough lanes for other stuff.

01:40:19   But I'm not, like I don't think they would also offer

01:40:24   additional PCI express slots beyond maybe just those two.

01:40:29   All this was, you know, theoretical,

01:40:31   trying to educate myself to make better Mac Pro predictions.

01:40:34   And then finally I asked if there's still,

01:40:36   remember when the 5K iMac first launched?

01:40:39   At the time, Thunderbolt 2 was not powerful enough

01:40:44   to drive a 5K display at 60 hertz.

01:40:47   It didn't have enough bandwidth to drive a 5K

01:40:49   at 60 hertz.

01:40:50   And Apple made a big deal about,

01:40:51   even during the presentation,

01:40:52   pointing out they had developed their own

01:40:54   timing controller, or T-Con,

01:40:56   and they had embedded that in the iMac

01:40:58   to help drive the display by basically

01:41:00   multi-placing two streams together.

01:41:02   I asked if they still do that.

01:41:04   The answer, yes.

01:41:06   So there's, 'cause I figured like, you know,

01:41:08   that now things are faster,

01:41:09   maybe they wouldn't need that anymore.

01:41:11   But nope, they still do it.

01:41:12   So that's useful to somebody, maybe.

01:41:14   And then finally, I asked if the AppleCare

01:41:19   pricing is a mistake or not because--

01:41:23   - Wow.

01:41:23   - Because whether you, so one of the little flukes

01:41:26   about AppleCare pricing is that Apple keeps flat pricing

01:41:30   for a product family.

01:41:31   So if you look at like a MacBook Pro,

01:41:33   the price of AppleCare for a $2,000 configuration

01:41:38   of the 15 inch MacBook Pro, that's the same price

01:41:41   whether you get the base model or whether you spec up

01:41:44   all the specs and it costs like $5,000.

01:41:47   AppleCare stays the same price,

01:41:49   because it's just the price of what it is for a MacBook Pro.

01:41:52   The iMac Pro is classified as an iMac

01:41:57   for AppleCare purposes, and so whether you spend

01:42:01   literally $1,300 or $13,000,

01:42:06   AppleCare is the same price of $169.

01:42:09   (laughs)

01:42:11   And when I ordered this, it shows you on the second page,

01:42:15   it shows the order screen of like,

01:42:16   Do you wanna add the AppleCare to your car?

01:42:17   I thought it was a mistake.

01:42:19   I'm like, there's no way that like a $10,000 configuration

01:42:22   of this computer that AppleCare is under $200.

01:42:26   There's no way.

01:42:27   But it turns out that is not a mistake.

01:42:29   That's just what it costs.

01:42:31   So this is one of those things that,

01:42:33   I say like I buy AppleCare selectively

01:42:36   based on the economics involved in each decision.

01:42:38   I would definitely recommend buying it on an iMac Pro

01:42:42   just because A, these are really expensive parts

01:42:45   if you ever need to get them serviced.

01:42:47   I would assume that servicing this is going to cost more

01:42:50   simply because the components are more advanced

01:42:51   and higher end and will cost more.

01:42:53   And B, that is such a cheap price for AppleCare

01:42:57   relative to the cost of the machine

01:42:59   that it seems like an exceptionally good deal in this case.

01:43:03   - One thing about the PCI Express lanes,

01:43:05   back in the cheese grater days,

01:43:08   maybe all the cheese grater days,

01:43:09   I think they had like one good slot for your good card

01:43:13   and then one slot with like half the number of lanes.

01:43:16   But for the purposes of, in those days,

01:43:20   for the purposes of having like a crossfire dual GPUs

01:43:23   for games and stuff like that,

01:43:24   most games could get by with eight lanes instead of 16.

01:43:27   So you'd put one card in the 16, one card in the eight,

01:43:29   but just run them the same speed and they would work.

01:43:33   Or just having two cards to have

01:43:34   like a larger number of monitors

01:43:36   back before you could drive 10,000 monitors

01:43:38   off of your laptops.

01:43:39   It was a big deal to have two video cards,

01:43:41   each of which could drive two monitors

01:43:42   and you get a big setup like that.

01:43:43   So it's conceivable that a Mac Pro could have one 16X slot

01:43:48   and then a bunch of slower slots,

01:43:52   some of which you'd still put cards in,

01:43:54   especially if you just want to expand the number of monitors

01:43:56   if you, who knows, maybe you're making some weird simulation

01:43:58   thing that needs 15 monitors, right?

01:44:00   If you have enough slots,

01:44:02   it doesn't matter that they're not all 16 lanes,

01:44:04   you just need enough to drive a monitor, right?

01:44:07   So there's a lot of flexibility.

01:44:09   I continue to think that card slots

01:44:11   won't be what the Mac Pro is about,

01:44:12   But who knows, like you just need a couple of slots to make it so much better than zero

01:44:16   slots, right?

01:44:17   And that would be perfectly happily if there was only one 16x slot in there and then just

01:44:22   you know one or two lesser ones or even zero lesser ones because all I really care about

01:44:26   is the ability to upgrade the GPU.

01:44:28   But other people's mileage may vary.

01:44:29   I do wonder about slots in the Mac Pro.

01:44:35   Has Apple successfully entirely killed the market for any card you can buy to stick in

01:44:39   a Mac?

01:44:40   I suppose not because a lot of PC cards will still work in there or will work in there

01:44:44   with some, you know, minor change, right?

01:44:47   But it's not as if there's tons and tons of cards being sold to Mac users because what

01:44:52   would they put them in?

01:44:53   It's been many, many years since Apple has sold a computer brand new that takes expansion

01:44:58   cards, PCI, you know, express cards in them.

01:45:01   So I have to imagine if you were in the market of selling whatever, cards for whatever that

01:45:05   that go inside a Mac, that that's been a difficult market

01:45:09   for a while, right?

01:45:10   So, you know, that's something to watch for.

01:45:14   Like, it seems like there's plenty of lanes to go around

01:45:15   and gives Apple lots of flexibility.

01:45:17   Apple could certainly use them all on a Mac Pro,

01:45:20   but it would not be absolutely shocked if it turns out

01:45:23   that even in the biggest, beefiest configuration of Mac Pro,

01:45:27   there was actually still a couple of lanes left over

01:45:29   for something.

01:45:30   - And you know, maybe the eGPU situation now

01:45:33   will keep that market alive for compute cards and GPUs.

01:45:37   I don't expect that market to come back

01:45:40   for things like video capture cards.

01:45:42   That was one of the, some of the big uses of PCI cards

01:45:45   in the past have been custom high-end video capture cards,

01:45:49   certain RAID controllers and stuff like that.

01:45:52   That's probably not coming back.

01:45:54   - Or even putting USB 3.0 in a really old cheese grater,

01:45:57   stuff like that.

01:45:58   These tiny little cards that look like

01:45:59   they're embarrassingly small,

01:46:01   like they didn't even think they should be taking up

01:46:02   card slot, like there's lots of things that you can do,

01:46:05   and those cards don't have to be super Mac specific.

01:46:08   They can, again, lengthen the life of your computer

01:46:11   by giving an interface that it didn't have before,

01:46:14   or whatever, even like a 10 gig ethernet card

01:46:15   and a Mac Pro that didn't come with 10 gig ethernet

01:46:17   or whatever.

01:46:18   - I would guess that the only likely role of card slots

01:46:23   in a new Mac Pro is GPUs/compute cards.

01:46:26   If they do that, I'm guessing there's a limit of two slots.

01:46:29   If for nothing else, for bandwidth,

01:46:31   or for just sheer size or Apple being Apple

01:46:34   not wanting to offer you a ton of PCI slots

01:46:37   'cause they view those as unnecessary

01:46:38   slash the past slash a burden.

01:46:40   And all of those I think today,

01:46:41   that would be a reasonable position to take.

01:46:44   As long as you can support GPUs and compute cards,

01:46:47   I think you're okay.

01:46:48   So Casey, are you still with us?

01:46:51   - Hi.

01:46:52   - So now comes my final thought on this

01:46:55   for this 10 minute period.

01:46:58   - So, you know, they call this the iMac Pro.

01:47:02   And Jon said he'll never buy one.

01:47:04   - When did I say I would never buy one?

01:47:06   I don't recall saying that. - Like an hour ago.

01:47:08   But I do, I think it's very, very clear

01:47:12   by looking, you know, look at what this machine actually is.

01:47:16   The only reason it's called iMac

01:47:18   is because it has a closed back and a screen on the front.

01:47:21   But by all accounts, this is a Mac Pro.

01:47:26   Like the reason we're talking about it so much,

01:47:28   The reason we're so excited, the reason it's so damn fast

01:47:31   is because it's a Mac Pro.

01:47:33   It's in everything but name and shape.

01:47:36   But it isn't like, even the shape is not that different

01:47:38   from what we had from 2013 forward.

01:47:40   One of the reasons I'm so happy about this

01:47:42   is that we've been growing for years for a Mac Pro update.

01:47:46   Well, they just gave us one.

01:47:48   This is a Mac Pro update.

01:47:50   And it isn't exactly what everybody wants.

01:47:52   Like a lot of people still want the, you know,

01:47:53   what an expandable headless tower will offer them.

01:47:57   And I might be one of these too.

01:47:59   You know, I'll decide when it comes out.

01:48:00   But I'm just really excited about this machine

01:48:03   because they gave us a new Mac Pro.

01:48:06   It's a Mac Pro, period.

01:48:08   No matter what they call it, this is a Mac Pro.

01:48:11   And that's really great.

01:48:13   I'm really excited about that.

01:48:14   I just cannot wait to be using a Mac Pro again,

01:48:17   even if there's an extra letter in front of it.

01:48:20   - We'll see how excited you are

01:48:21   when you have to bring it in for image retention.

01:48:23   (laughing)

01:48:24   - Yeah, I'm honestly a little worried

01:48:26   about service issues like that.

01:48:29   - Those are like the most prosaic things,

01:48:30   like the guts of it all work great,

01:48:33   but it like the screen ends up being,

01:48:35   it's the all in one factor,

01:48:36   like that if something goes wrong with it,

01:48:39   even if everything else is working fine,

01:48:40   the whole thing has to go in.

01:48:41   So anyway, and it's been brought up by a lot of other people

01:48:44   and I've been thinking about it lately too,

01:48:45   as I sit here in front of my nearly 10 year old monitor.

01:48:49   That 5K screen in iMac is great.

01:48:51   Tying it to, like it's going to age much more slowly

01:48:55   than the internals, because it's not like the 5K screen

01:48:57   is gonna be cutting edge forever.

01:48:58   Say 8K screens come out, it's like,

01:48:59   oh, that stinky 5K screen.

01:49:01   But that 5K screen will be a great screen

01:49:03   for years and years and years and years.

01:49:05   Like, you could keep, assuming it was reliable

01:49:08   and it kept working, you're not gonna turn your nose up

01:49:11   at that screen anytime soon.

01:49:12   Like, there is no second retina revolution

01:49:15   where we have another 5X increase in resolution,

01:49:18   because there's no benefit to that.

01:49:20   Maybe HDR will start to make it crappy, but.

01:49:23   - If we got OLED on the desktop,

01:49:24   have those real OLED black levels, oh man, that'd be great.

01:49:27   But that doesn't seem like it's happening soon.

01:49:29   - Yeah, OLED and HDR.

01:49:30   But I say because I'm sitting in front

01:49:32   of a 10-year-old monitor here,

01:49:33   this monitor is not retina, it's not great.

01:49:35   The black levels on it are atrocious,

01:49:38   but it still looks nice.

01:49:39   Like, here's what my qualifier for it look nice,

01:49:41   especially with Apple monitors,

01:49:42   color uniformity and general sharpness goes a long way.

01:49:47   Right, the fact that this is still,

01:49:49   like if I make the screen entirely white,

01:49:51   I can't tell there's like a dark splotch

01:49:53   light splotch and stuff like that. No image retention as far as I'm able to tell. All

01:49:57   the pictures are still alive. Looks about as good as the day I got it. Yeah, it's small,

01:50:02   but if I wasn't me, I could have been using this monitor with a series of Macs, right?

01:50:09   And it kind of makes me feel bad about it. I have a 27-inch Thunderbolt display up in

01:50:14   the attic, which granted is an external display, but because it's like a Thunderbolt weirdness,

01:50:18   I don't have stuff to plug it into without a dongle type adapter. And if I could have

01:50:22   plug that into my current Mac and it wasn't 10 years old, I would have.

01:50:26   Anyway, all this is to say that for all of the iMac Pro's greatness, all-in-one is still

01:50:32   an all-in-one and it's great for what you want it to be, but the all-in-one compromises

01:50:36   are still there and you have to be aware of them and no matter how awesome they make the

01:50:39   internals, nothing changes the stripes of an all-in-one being an all-in-one.

01:50:44   And mostly I think about it because, you know, maybe I think about it because my wife's monitor

01:50:49   and her 5K iMac looks so much better than the thing that I sit in front of every day.

01:50:53   I'm like, man, I would love to use that as a monitor.

01:50:56   And I know that it will never happen.

01:50:58   When the guts of that 5K iMac become old and slow, I can't just use it as a monitor for

01:51:04   another machine, which you could do with one of the older non-retina iMacs, if I recall

01:51:09   correctly.

01:51:10   But anyway, what I'm saying is I'm looking forward to the Pro Display almost as much

01:51:13   as the Mac Pro.

01:51:16   - Yeah, I really am very excited to see

01:51:19   what that ends up being.

01:51:21   But honestly, if we didn't have anything,

01:51:25   any hope of a Mac Pro coming,

01:51:28   if we didn't have the statements from Apple

01:51:31   saying they're working on one,

01:51:32   if this was it, if this was the only thing

01:51:35   that was gonna be the new Mac Pro, that's not bad.

01:51:39   It would still be amazing.

01:51:40   I would still be very excited.

01:51:42   - I would have ordered it.

01:51:43   If that was the case, I would have ordered it,

01:51:45   I wouldn't have been too grumpy about ordering it.

01:51:47   I mean, I would have gotten--

01:51:48   - Oh, hold on, hold on one second.

01:51:50   - I would have got my grump about,

01:51:52   here's what I would have been grumpy about.

01:51:53   I would have been grumpy about the fact

01:51:54   that I'm making a Mac Pro,

01:51:56   but I wouldn't have been that grumpy

01:51:58   about having to order this because it would, you know.

01:52:01   Like, at various times, I have actually considered

01:52:03   replacing my Mac Pro with a 5K when in my darkest times.

01:52:06   And it's clear that the 5K is not like a Mac Pro

01:52:09   in any stretch of the imagination.

01:52:10   It's consumer CPUs, it's, you know, like,

01:52:13   But it would be, you know, at a certain point, it's a big upgrade.

01:52:17   So I would mostly be complaining about, "Why aren't you going to make a Mac Pro?"

01:52:22   But then when it came to like, "Okay, fine. If you're not going to make a Mac Pro,

01:52:25   you're not going to do that thing, I guess I'll settle for what you do get."

01:52:29   And settling for the iMac Pro is a hell of a lot better than settling for a 5K iMac.

01:52:34   So come on. I mean, I admire your enthusiasm, John. I really do.

01:52:39   but both of you would be going bananas.

01:52:42   Maybe not Marco after this phone call,

01:52:44   but up until this phone call,

01:52:46   the two of you would be inconsolable

01:52:48   about how this is BS,

01:52:51   they're not taking pro seriously,

01:52:53   I want expansion,

01:52:54   I wanna be able to get inside of it.

01:52:56   - That would be true,

01:52:57   but it would be less about complaining

01:52:58   about specifically the iMac Pro

01:53:00   and more about complaining where is the Mac Pro

01:53:02   and how are you,

01:53:03   all the people you're abandoning

01:53:04   with not making Mac Pro.

01:53:06   I mean, it's the whole thing they had the April,

01:53:07   But they we don't have to do that like they they changed their mind. Everyone's all happy

01:53:11   We're just waiting patiently

01:53:12   Well also like a lot of the a lot of the a lot of those ships sailed with the 2013 Mac Pro

01:53:16   We a lot like the lot of that was like, oh you can't expand anymore. They kill all the slots

01:53:19   They're they made it really expensive like that all happened in 2013

01:53:23   So like we would have considered that like already a lost cause yeah

01:53:26   And I think I was less angry about the 2013 because I think I and a lot of other people just assumed

01:53:32   Okay, well this but this is the first one. This is the first trash

01:53:35   give them a break, like they're gonna, you know, the second and third generation trash

01:53:38   cans will surely be great. And that was, that was, that was, turned out to be a mistake.

01:53:43   But, but that's why we weren't like, oh, I don't like this 2013 trash can. I didn't buy

01:53:48   one. I said, this is not for me. I'll wait for the second or third gen. You know, once

01:53:50   you can hook a retina monitor up to it, how long did we talk about that? It just, we made

01:53:54   assumptions that were not founded, that that computer would be updated. I hope Marco is

01:53:59   is not correct about this Mac Pro,

01:54:01   because honestly, whatever this Mac Pro is,

01:54:04   if you do not have a 10-year-old computer like me,

01:54:08   you'd be wise to wait for the second generation of this one,

01:54:10   but maybe you wouldn't be,

01:54:11   because if Marco's theory is right,

01:54:13   and there never will be a second generation

01:54:15   of this new Mac Pro, it would be very unwise to wait for it,

01:54:17   and you should just get an iMac Pro now and just be happy.

01:54:20   So, I don't know.

01:54:21   I have no choice.

01:54:23   I have to get the Mac Pro when it comes out.

01:54:24   It's just been too darn long,

01:54:27   But I worry about it being a one and done computer

01:54:30   'cause that's not what I want from it.

01:54:32   - Well, but I mean, at least if it is,

01:54:33   you'll have 10 more years probably to use out of it.

01:54:36   - If it doesn't have overheating GPUs

01:54:38   or some other weird thing, who knows?

01:54:39   I mean, it's gonna be an octagon

01:54:41   and it will spin when you use it.

01:54:42   I don't know.

01:54:43   (laughing)

01:54:44   Who knows what this thing will do.

01:54:46   - Like a rotating restaurant.

01:54:47   All right, thanks to our sponsors this week,

01:54:51   Squarespace, Backblaze, and Aftershocks.

01:54:54   I will see you next week.

01:54:55   Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin

01:55:02   'Cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental

01:55:08   John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

01:55:13   'Cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental

01:55:18   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

01:55:23   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

01:55:32   So that's Casey Liss M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:55:36   Auntie Marco Arment S-I-R-A-C

01:55:41   U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A

01:55:44   It's accidental (It's accidental)

01:55:47   They didn't mean to, accidental (It's accidental)

01:55:52   ♪ I've had no tech wide cast so long ♪

01:55:57   - So, how was it talking to Apple?

01:56:01   - It was pretty cool.

01:56:02   - I hear all the things you said.

01:56:04   I've been here, I just didn't have anything to add,

01:56:06   but that's gotta be pretty neat.

01:56:09   - Oh yeah, it was, mostly it was just like an honor

01:56:14   that they decided to take their time to talk to me.

01:56:17   I wasn't talking to Tim, but I was talking to people

01:56:21   in Apple who have busy things that they could be doing.

01:56:24   Like, you know, they have busy schedules

01:56:26   and in the middle of this launch,

01:56:28   they have to talk to a lot of people

01:56:29   and they decided to talk to me for like an hour.

01:56:32   - Did you ask them when your review unit would arrive?

01:56:35   - No, I did not presume that I'm getting a review unit

01:56:39   and I told them right up front

01:56:40   'cause they asked if I ordered one and I said yes.

01:56:42   - Oh, you should have said no,

01:56:44   I'm waiting for my review unit, right?

01:56:45   (laughing)

01:56:47   - Yeah, but yeah, so it's mostly just an honor

01:56:51   And the call also just went really well.

01:56:53   Like, you know, it wasn't, you know,

01:56:56   you might think talking to Apple is, you know,

01:57:00   like the way Tim Cook is in TV interviews.

01:57:02   Like, you know, very careful, reserved,

01:57:04   a little bit cold maybe.

01:57:06   But no, it isn't like that.

01:57:07   Like, these are just humans who are, you know,

01:57:09   on the call trying to be helpful to you,

01:57:11   trying to be friendly.

01:57:12   And again, like, they're not gonna like let slip

01:57:15   something about the next iPhone or anything.

01:57:16   But, you know, you're still talking to people.

01:57:19   You're not talking to like a robot.

01:57:21   So it's just a nice friendly call.

01:57:22   - Sounds to me like you got handled by Apple PR.

01:57:25   (laughing)

01:57:26   - Oh, we're definitely gonna have people who say that.

01:57:30   But look, I brought a bunch of questions to them.

01:57:33   Some of them were a little bit challenging or difficult

01:57:35   and they took them all in stride

01:57:38   and told me what they wanted to tell me.

01:57:43   I'm not going into this thing that because I talked to them

01:57:45   everything's going to be perfect about this computer.

01:57:48   I don't know yet.

01:57:50   But so far it seems pretty great, and I hope that I have been fair in representing my opinion

01:57:57   and my thoughts here.

01:57:58   I don't want to make it sound like now that they talk to me I'm going to say only the

01:58:04   good things and be brainwashed and everything else.

01:58:07   It just sounds like this is a really good computer, and I think most of the early reviews

01:58:12   bear that out.

01:58:13   We will see what happens once I get one, once we get one, if Jon ever buys one, and over

01:58:19   Over time we will see like are there any long term problems

01:58:21   that develop like reliability issues or heat

01:58:23   or things like that, but so far it seems pretty great.

01:58:27   And from what we know so far,

01:58:30   I don't see any of those problems on the horizon anymore.

01:58:32   You know, I was very concerned about thermals before.

01:58:36   Between what they've said and what other people have said

01:58:39   who have seen or used or who have one of these computers,

01:58:42   that doesn't seem to be a problem.

01:58:44   So maybe that's great.

01:58:46   We'll find out.

01:58:47   I do hope that I'm representing these things fairly

01:58:51   and that I'm not unreasonably biased

01:58:54   because they're being friendly towards me,

01:58:56   but I don't think I am.

01:58:56   I think I'm being reasonable here.

01:58:58   But if I am, I know you guys will tell me.

01:59:00   And if not, all of the listeners will.

01:59:02   - Oh, of course you are.

01:59:02   I mean, you can't help but be influenced by that,

01:59:05   but as long as you call out the fact

01:59:08   that you may be influenced by it,

01:59:09   I feel like listeners should be able

01:59:10   to take that into account.

01:59:12   - Yeah, sure.

01:59:13   I mean, and the other thing is,

01:59:14   When I talk to people at Apple, I don't pull punches,

01:59:19   and I also, I'm not like super apologetic

01:59:24   or differential or anything, I just treat them as peers.

01:59:27   And part of that is because I don't have a real job

01:59:31   and I don't really have a boss or anything,

01:59:33   and so I don't really treat anybody like they're my boss.

01:59:36   And part of that is that as I increasingly get

01:59:41   into my mid-30s, soon to be my late 30s,

01:59:45   I just don't care anymore about anything.

01:59:47   (laughing)

01:59:49   - Can that be the title?

01:59:50   I just don't care anymore about anything.

01:59:52   It's the follow-up to my autobiography,

01:59:56   Nobody Cares But Me, But I Do Care.

01:59:58   Second volume, Marco Arment.

02:00:00   I just don't care anymore about anything.

02:00:02   - No, but like, I'm not afraid.

02:00:07   If I'm talking to somebody at Apple,

02:00:08   I'm not afraid of like, you know,

02:00:10   if I say the wrong thing or afterwards,

02:00:12   if I'm on a podcast and I say the wrong thing,

02:00:14   are they gonna cut off my PR access or something?

02:00:18   Because until this moment, I didn't have PR access.

02:00:20   - You don't have any PR access to get cut off.

02:00:22   - I have nothing to lose.

02:00:24   And also, everything in my job,

02:00:26   everything in my career, my life, to this point,

02:00:29   has not needed PR access.

02:00:31   And so it's one thing, if I was The Verge

02:00:34   and I get cut off from PR, that's a much bigger problem.

02:00:37   For me to get cut off from PR,

02:00:39   it doesn't really hurt me much.

02:00:42   And so I'm not afraid to be honest

02:00:45   and to say when things are bad.

02:00:47   And most good journalists,

02:00:49   they try to maintain that same balance,

02:00:51   even if their access does depend on that,

02:00:52   because even if their access does or does not,

02:00:55   their credibility depends on them being balanced

02:00:58   and being fair and being willing to criticize

02:01:01   when it's warranted.

02:01:04   And so I'm not saying everybody with PR access

02:01:06   is afraid to criticize,

02:01:08   But that is definitely a trap that I would fear falling into if my access increases.

02:01:14   But I think I'm okay because I don't really have anything to lose.

02:01:18   I have to say, one of the best things about Apple PR, in my experience, is because they're

02:01:25   so selective in who they talk to, they tend to know who they're talking to.

02:01:31   So they will tailor not just what they say, but even who you talk to.

02:01:36   At various times in my Mac OS X reviews, I had interactions with Apple PR, and in almost

02:01:43   all those cases, I didn't have to go through the analogy of being level one, level two,

02:01:48   level three support.

02:01:49   They would just hook me up directly with the engineer who works on whatever thing that

02:01:56   I want to ask.

02:01:57   Now, partially it's because I'm asking questions that Apple PR thinks are the most boring questions

02:02:00   in the world.

02:02:01   Tell me about the exact technical details of some subsystem that I'm going to put in

02:02:06   my umpteen page review that no one is going to read all of, right?

02:02:09   So they don't care.

02:02:10   But the thing is, they're efficient.

02:02:12   They're not going to make me ask a question of a high-level PR person who's then going

02:02:16   to ask someone below that, who is then going to ask an engineering manager, who then is

02:02:21   going to ask an engineer through this giant game of telephone to get back to me.

02:02:24   They just will connect me directly to the people who know, which it sounds like they

02:02:28   never let an engineer talk directly to the press. They do. They do if they know who they're

02:02:33   talking to and what they're asking about and the parameters are very clear that you're

02:02:37   just specifically asking about exactly how Facebook integration works with contacts and

02:02:41   some specific version of the operating system. And as most people know, the engineers will

02:02:47   just tell you the truth. They wrote the thing, they designed the subsystem, it's a boring

02:02:51   answer to a boring question that doesn't reveal anything about future anything, but very often

02:02:55   I had those kind of specific questions and to Apple's credit, they didn't say, "Oh, you

02:02:59   know, we're not talking about that now," or "We'll get back to you," or "Give me some

02:03:03   vague generality that's just reading from a page, a web page you can get."

02:03:07   They'll bring you right down to the engineer.

02:03:09   So I would imagine when they're talking to Marco, they've got people sort of appropriately

02:03:14   scaled to the type of questions that he's likely to ask, which would be very different

02:03:18   than if they're talking to, you know, Time Magazine or whatever.

02:03:21   It's a different set of people because they know who it is they're talking to.

02:03:24   - Yeah, I asked very technical questions,

02:03:28   very specific questions about implementation details

02:03:31   of the iMac and things like its processors

02:03:33   and its PCI lanes, and I got answers to all those questions

02:03:37   from the people on the call.

02:03:39   Like, they knew their stuff.

02:03:41   Anyway, my attitude towards them is very much like,

02:03:45   I love talking to them, but I don't need

02:03:49   to be talking to them.

02:03:50   Like, my job doesn't have to depend on it.

02:03:53   And so I hope that will help, you know,

02:03:56   basically keep me in check here from getting,

02:04:00   you know, too biased, I guess.

02:04:03   - But we still all want review hardware,

02:04:04   so Apple, please send it.

02:04:06   - And the funny thing is, like,

02:04:07   even if I don't get review hardware,

02:04:09   that doesn't really affect us.

02:04:10   - Well, you're just gonna buy it,

02:04:11   but for those of us who aren't gonna buy

02:04:12   every single thing, review hardware,

02:04:13   and this sounds like, oh, you get review hardware.

02:04:16   Like, you don't get to keep it.

02:04:17   Like, you give it back to them.

02:04:18   It's just so that you can talk in a more informed way

02:04:21   on your media event, you know,

02:04:23   so you can write about it for your website or you can talk about it on your podcast.

02:04:26   I continue to maintain that podcast is a form of media, though Apple seems not yet to entirely

02:04:31   agree when it comes to reviewing this.

02:04:32   But anyway, if Apple decides they want to get their message out through a particular

02:04:38   person or a venue or whatever, review hardware is a great way to do that, even if they don't

02:04:43   get it early.

02:04:44   Even if you just get it day of, it just lets that person know what it's like to use that

02:04:48   thing and then give it back after a week.

02:04:50   And that's part of the PR effort.

02:04:52   So I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that someday that Apple could

02:04:56   give podcasts review hardware.

02:04:58   It just doesn't happen yet.

02:04:59   So I'm saying we're willing to be in that pilot program.

02:05:02   Call us, Apple.

02:05:03   Yeah, maybe for a major desktop Mac release in 2018.

02:05:06   Mm-hmm.

02:05:07   Just send it right to Casey's house.

02:05:09   That would be so amazing.

02:05:11   You can pick it up in the back of a Jeep Wrangler and just whip down the highway with it.

02:05:14   Oh my god.

02:05:15   Can you imagine if I got on the horn one day and was like, "Hey, you know that Mac Pro

02:05:21   that's not coming out for a week.

02:05:24   Yeah, you know, the good news is I have one.

02:05:26   The bad news is I just couldn't be bothered by unboxing it,

02:05:28   so I'm not gonna be able to talk about it at all.

02:05:30   You two would lose it.

02:05:32   - The bad news is it fell out of my Jeep Wrangler

02:05:35   'cause I didn't have the doors on.

02:05:36   - Right, yeah, it went over a big bump

02:05:38   and it just tumbled out the back.

02:05:40   But it seems like it's fine.

02:05:41   - I'm sure it'll be okay.

02:05:42   It's all solid state, there's no platters.

02:05:44   - It's got a glass front and back like the new phones.

02:05:48   (beeping)

02:05:50   [ Silence ]