250: We're Doing a Show


00:00:00   So John, I'm curious, do you realize how much of a Boston accent you have?

00:00:05   I do not have a Boston accent. You don't even know what a Boston accent is.

00:00:08   You've watched too many of the stupid, what's his name, Matt Damon's friend.

00:00:13   Ben Affleck?

00:00:14   Yeah.

00:00:15   I know what a Boston accent is, and I know you don't have a standard one, but you do have some of one.

00:00:21   And I don't think you know this.

00:00:23   I know during this podcast I misspoke and said some word that sounded like it has a

00:00:27   Boston accent because I like bailed in the middle of a word and changed to a different

00:00:30   thing and it ended up coming out.

00:00:31   I recognize that I did that in this episode.

00:00:34   Yeah, that was not me doing a Boston accent.

00:00:36   That was me totally misspeaking and like trying to rope it back in the middle of a word and

00:00:40   this weird sound coming out.

00:00:41   Rest assured I do not say that word that way.

00:00:43   I heard myself do it too.

00:00:45   But no, I have a New York accent for as far as I have any accent.

00:00:47   That's why people complain about how you say Mario.

00:00:50   That's not a Boston thing.

00:00:51   Look, you live there. You can't deny that it's going to have an effect on you.

00:00:56   No, it doesn't. I'm not one of those people.

00:00:58   I'm not one of those people who picks up the accents from my surrounding.

00:01:01   All my kids speak differently than me.

00:01:02   You don't pick it up like 100%, but like,

00:01:06   you definitely have some slight Boston influence in your speech.

00:01:10   I don't think I do.

00:01:12   At all. Zero amount.

00:01:13   You're so wrong.

00:01:13   Zero amount.

00:01:15   [Laughter]

00:01:16   [Music]

00:01:18   I think some sort of weird access issue for the last two days trying to get to Daring

00:01:21   Fireball.

00:01:22   Like, it's not a DNS thing because I think it's going past the DNS stage, but it's

00:01:27   just taking forever to load.

00:01:28   Like, I started to load a page before I picked up your call.

00:01:32   It's still loading, the progress bar.

00:01:33   It still has a white screen in Safari.

00:01:35   Is it possible that it's because your computer is slower than, like, my phone from last year?

00:01:40   That's not it.

00:01:41   I can't love that demanding site, Daring Fireball, with all its widgets and gigas.

00:01:47   Giggaw. How old are you? What is a Geegaw? It's a word. Are you sure? How the hell do

00:01:54   you spell that? I'm very sure. G-E-E-G-A-W. Geegaw. I think it was officially removed

00:02:01   from the dictionary 30 years ago. A showy thing, especially one that is useless or worthless.

00:02:08   And also it's usually G-E-W-G-A-W. A goo-gaw. That's what I said. I thought you said Geegaw.

00:02:15   - Oh, you're right, I did.

00:02:16   All right, well then maybe Geegaw isn't a word.

00:02:18   - No, no, no, no.

00:02:20   - Is it an alternate spelling?

00:02:21   - Yeah, I think so, 'cause I looked up Geegaw

00:02:23   and ended up with Goo-Gaw.

00:02:26   - Yeah.

00:02:27   - Oh, no, well, I guess it's just an autocorrect thing,

00:02:28   'cause it's usually Goo-Gaws, apparently it's usually plural.

00:02:33   Wow, this is already taking a turn for the unexpected.

00:02:35   - It's important to get things like this right.

00:02:36   Oh, Merriam-Webster has it.

00:02:38   It's a less common variant of Goo-Gaw.

00:02:40   - I don't wanna do this first time in a follow-up,

00:02:42   'cause I really don't wanna hear any more whining

00:02:43   the new MacBook Pros, gentlemen.

00:02:45   It'll be quick.

00:02:46   It's a quickie.

00:02:47   It's a quickie.

00:02:48   Okay, yeah, I'm sure that once you bring up a complaint about the MacBook Pro, it's

00:02:51   totally going to be a three-second endeavor.

00:02:53   It is.

00:02:54   Bull.

00:02:55   I wanted to put the nose quick in there.

00:02:56   It will be quick, I promise.

00:02:58   I guarantee that it won't be.

00:03:00   Great, I'm already punchy.

00:03:02   You having a holiday party?

00:03:04   No, I'm not.

00:03:05   I should be.

00:03:06   That's the problem.

00:03:07   Especially given this first item of follow-up, I need a holiday party.

00:03:11   Look, until the laptops are fixed, we're going to keep talking about them.

00:03:14   Hey, you know what? They're not all bad.

00:03:16   That's true.

00:03:17   Anyway, alright.

00:03:18   60% of them don't have keyboard failures apparently, or fine.

00:03:21   Yeah, but they were all bad.

00:03:24   I don't know that reference, Jon. Don't care. I'm already punchy, so let's just get it out of the way.

00:03:27   We're starting with follow-up, ladies and gentlemen, and apparently Jon thinks that his complaint about a 2016 or '17 MacBook Pro will be,

00:03:34   and I'm quoting, very quick, I guarantee it.

00:03:38   So look at the timer, look at the elapsed time.

00:03:41   Let's go, buckle up kids.

00:03:43   What's going on, Jon?

00:03:44   - I've got one of these at work, remember?

00:03:45   So I use it every day.

00:03:46   So I have occasion to have complaints.

00:03:48   Anyway, I noticed this today.

00:03:49   I very rarely do anything with my laptop at work

00:03:52   except keep it closed and plug it in to other devices.

00:03:55   But I was in a lot of meetings today

00:03:56   and I had the laptop open and the lighting was just right.

00:03:59   And it occurred to me that still in 2017,

00:04:03   Apple is making keyboards where the keys touch the screen

00:04:06   when you close it.

00:04:06   And that's been true for years and years and years and years.

00:04:10   Has it ever not been true?

00:04:11   Has Apple ever made a keyboard where the keys don't touch the screen?

00:04:14   Well, guess what?

00:04:14   Finger grease is on the keys.

00:04:15   And now finger grease is on my screen in the shape of my keyboard.

00:04:20   In the long list of things that we want Apple to correct,

00:04:23   I believe that it is possible for Apple to make a laptop computer.

00:04:27   When you close it, the grease from your fingers on the keys

00:04:30   does not come off onto the screen.

00:04:31   And you don't get a greasy outline of all the keys

00:04:34   in the keyboard on your screen.

00:04:35   I believe that's possible.

00:04:36   they have very low profile keys,

00:04:38   they're all about thinness, that's it.

00:04:40   - Well I think they did.

00:04:42   I don't know if they still do.

00:04:45   On my original PowerBook G4, the aluminum PowerBook G4,

00:04:47   that was my first Mac, I had heard about this problem

00:04:51   about, and back then when you had the matte screen,

00:04:55   it was a lot easier for a permanent imprint to develop

00:04:58   'cause you couldn't really wipe off

00:05:00   the screen coating very much, like to clean it.

00:05:03   And I had heard about this and so I decided as a policy,

00:05:05   that I would carry the laptop in the backpack

00:05:08   such that the screen lid was not facing my back.

00:05:12   It was facing the other way.

00:05:13   Carrying it this way every day

00:05:15   to and from work and everything,

00:05:16   I never had that problem.

00:05:18   That computer never developed the imprint

00:05:22   of the keyboard on the screen.

00:05:23   And my theory was that in a perfect layout

00:05:26   of the laptop like on a desk,

00:05:27   the screen and keyboard don't actually touch.

00:05:30   But if there's any flex that's squeezing the laptop

00:05:33   a little bit from the sides, like in a bag,

00:05:36   any flex is enough to push the screen

00:05:38   against the keyboard inside there,

00:05:40   because it's such a tiny little gap.

00:05:42   And I imagine over time that gap has only gotten smaller.

00:05:45   So it's possible that while sitting on a desk,

00:05:48   it doesn't press against it,

00:05:49   but that if you have it in a bag

00:05:51   or in a certain kind of stand that stands it up,

00:05:53   or anything that would possibly apply pressure

00:05:56   to the outside of it, like books next to it in a bag,

00:05:59   that might compress it just enough

00:06:01   to make that contact happen.

00:06:03   - Yeah, I'm sure that's what's happening,

00:06:04   but I'm saying, you know, we got the butterfly keyboard.

00:06:06   How many years ago, Casey, we can make a keyboard

00:06:08   that like collapses into the case

00:06:09   and gets out of flex distance?

00:06:11   I don't know, I'm just saying it's an area

00:06:12   of potential improvement, not just for this laptop,

00:06:15   but you know, we do have very low profile keys.

00:06:18   I figure like just that gap should be getting bigger

00:06:20   and not smaller because nobody likes greasy keys

00:06:22   on their screen.

00:06:23   - No, no, you're asking them to make even lower profile keys

00:06:26   please for the love of God,

00:06:27   do not solve this problem in this way.

00:06:29   - The whole, just move the whole keyboard down.

00:06:31   You can make high keys but then have them sink into the keyboard magically.

00:06:34   I don't know.

00:06:35   That one should use laptops.

00:06:36   They're bad.

00:06:37   They're not bad.

00:06:38   Oh my god.

00:06:39   The butterfly keyboard was 1995.

00:06:41   I'll put links in the show notes.

00:06:43   I actually noticed, it was either today or yesterday, that on my beloved MacBook Adorable,

00:06:48   which I wouldn't change in any way.

00:06:50   I actually would, but don't tell them.

00:06:52   Anyway, I noticed that on that machine.

00:06:56   I generally hold it, I don't know, by maybe the hinge or I don't even remember and it's

00:07:00   It's not sitting next to me, so I can't demonstrate to myself.

00:07:04   But I was holding it in such a way that I felt like it was giving a little bit, and

00:07:07   I think I was putting a little bit of pressure toward the center of the screen, which is

00:07:10   not something I normally do.

00:07:11   I don't like to mess with the LCD.

00:07:14   But it just so happened that I gripped it in such a way that I noticed that if I put

00:07:20   pressure on the center of the LCD, roughly where the Apple logo is, while it's closed,

00:07:27   I can feel it like give enough to come into contact with the bottom part of the case.

00:07:31   So it's just like you're describing, Jon, where clearly the screen is now impacting

00:07:35   the keys.

00:07:36   And I don't recall ever having a laptop that did that, and I'm probably wrong and I bet

00:07:40   all of them do it, but it was a very uncomfortable, very unnerving feeling that I did not like.

00:07:46   And that happened to me in the last 24 hours.

00:07:48   I will also note, to go back a step to Marco's strategies to avoid keyboard grease, I knew

00:07:56   for a long time several super nerds that used to keep, I don't even think they still come

00:08:02   in the in the MacBooks or MacBook Pros anymore, but it used to be when you bought an Apple

00:08:06   laptop, you know where this is going, right? So they used to have this sheet of like not

00:08:10   foam, but like some sort of foam like material that would be between the display and the

00:08:15   keyboard. And I knew a lot of people that would carry that with them and then put it

00:08:20   in their device before they close the lid in order to prevent any sort of scraping against

00:08:25   the screen and I always thought that was crazy until one day I noticed an outline of a keyboard

00:08:29   on my screen and thought well, okay, that's a little bit weird but maybe not so crazy

00:08:33   after all.

00:08:34   - No, and people still do that and there were third party cloths that would fit it perfectly

00:08:38   also that people would do.

00:08:40   That was a pretty widespread thing for a while and I think it is still done by about the

00:08:45   same number of people that ever did it.

00:08:47   But to me that always felt too, it's like John having his phone in a pouch that has

00:08:53   is like take it out of this pouch before he uses it.

00:08:56   That's like a step too far for me.

00:08:57   And with a laptop that's like,

00:08:59   having a piece of cloth that I stick between

00:09:02   the laptop keyboard and the lib when I close it

00:09:04   and then have to open it up and take it off every time,

00:09:07   that's like too fiddly for me.

00:09:09   I would rather have the imprint of the keyboard

00:09:11   than have to do that every single time.

00:09:12   - All I hear is that you're too jealous

00:09:14   of my incredibly clean phone,

00:09:15   but this brings up Apple's actual solution to this problem

00:09:19   and the grand tradition of steganography.

00:09:22   if they just made their screens touch screens,

00:09:25   then the giant amount of finger grease

00:09:27   randomly placed all over the screen

00:09:28   would mask the shape of the keyboard,

00:09:30   which would still be there hidden in the information,

00:09:32   but you wouldn't be able to see it.

00:09:34   - Especially if they coded it with whatever's coding

00:09:36   the 10.5 inch iPad Pro screen, which is so,

00:09:40   this is the most fingerprinty iOS device

00:09:42   I think I've ever had.

00:09:43   I heard they had to change the coding for the Apple Pencil

00:09:46   to make that work well and not wear it weirdly,

00:09:48   but whatever is different, the 9.7 didn't seem this bad.

00:09:52   The 10.5 iPad Pro is, it just is a constant wall

00:09:57   of fingerprints, it is hideous.

00:09:58   I wish I knew any way to prevent that

00:10:01   besides using gloves or using one of Jon's pouches.

00:10:04   - Stop touching your screen.

00:10:05   (laughing)

00:10:06   - I could've used my phone.

00:10:07   - Oh, okay.

00:10:08   - Just use mind control or keyboard shortcuts.

00:10:11   - Yeah, no, speaking of phone cases,

00:10:14   I do have some follow up.

00:10:16   You are still caseless, but I am no longer caseless.

00:10:19   - Oh yeah?

00:10:20   - Yeah, so as winter is setting in here on the East Coast,

00:10:24   in these places that have winter, unlike you Casey,

00:10:27   cold, dry hands that I'm getting on some of these days

00:10:32   made me feel a lot less secure

00:10:34   about carrying the iPhone X caseless.

00:10:37   First, I tried, there's a vendor that I will put

00:10:41   in the show notes whose name I have forgotten again,

00:10:45   I keep forgetting this name, that it's basically,

00:10:49   I think it's one guy in Brooklyn who laser cuts

00:10:53   leather stick-on backings from real pieces of leather.

00:10:57   They're really nice and they're only 25 bucks,

00:10:59   so it's not like a crazy, crazy thing.

00:11:02   And I have one on my iPhone 4,

00:11:04   and I moved it to the iPhone 4S when I got that,

00:11:06   because having a flat piece of leather

00:11:09   on the back of the phone only,

00:11:10   it does not cover the sides,

00:11:11   and it has a cutout for the camera, that's it.

00:11:13   But it's just like leather with a hole for the camera,

00:11:15   no logos, just blank leather,

00:11:18   and it's high quality, so it feels really soft and nice.

00:11:21   Having that on the back of the iPhone 4

00:11:23   with the glass back felt awesome.

00:11:26   It was fantastic, I was so glad to have it.

00:11:29   I figured, let me try that again for the iPhone X.

00:11:33   And I used it for a few days,

00:11:34   and it does indeed feel good most of the time,

00:11:37   but the iPhone X, because it doesn't have straight sides,

00:11:40   and the 4 also had a little tiny rubber gasket lip

00:11:43   that ran around the glass on the back,

00:11:45   so it kind of provided a little wall

00:11:48   to keep the border of whatever stick-on thing

00:11:52   you had on the back there clean and contained.

00:11:54   The new phones don't have that.

00:11:55   They're so curvy and rounded on the sides

00:11:58   that any kind of stick-on thing that only covers the back,

00:12:02   if it has any thickness at all,

00:12:03   if it's more than just a vinyl sticker kind of thing,

00:12:06   if it has any thickness at all,

00:12:08   it kind of has to create its own edge,

00:12:11   and that edge kept getting peeled up

00:12:12   as I would just handle the phone.

00:12:15   Clearly, this is not really made for this anymore,

00:12:17   And so, as much as I love the feel of that,

00:12:22   I decided I need something else that provides grip.

00:12:25   Went to the Apple Store and felt all the cases.

00:12:29   And I actually, like, they, props to the Apple Store.

00:12:32   It used to be impossible to try out a case

00:12:34   in the Apple Store.

00:12:35   Then the stores had these, like, some stores would have

00:12:37   like these tables in the middle somewhere

00:12:40   where they would have like a little box or rack

00:12:42   full of cases that you could try on,

00:12:45   like with an employee's help.

00:12:46   And now, they just have an example case on the little post

00:12:50   that the boxes for the cases are hanging on,

00:12:55   and you can just pick it up and stick it on the phone

00:12:57   that you have in your pocket.

00:12:58   You can even put it in your pocket and nobody arrests you.

00:13:00   And then you can go put it back

00:13:01   and decide whether to buy it or not or not.

00:13:03   And so, you can actually try out all the cases

00:13:06   on your phone, in your hand, and in your pocket

00:13:08   to see how they all feel, which is really nice.

00:13:11   I gotta give them credit for that.

00:13:12   Anyway, I tried the silicone case

00:13:15   because that provides the best grip of all the cases.

00:13:18   But when it goes in and out of a pocket,

00:13:20   I have a serious problem with the amount of friction

00:13:22   that it has there.

00:13:23   I may eventually go to that anyway,

00:13:25   but I'm hoping I don't have to.

00:13:27   I tried the black leather case.

00:13:29   First I tried the red leather case.

00:13:30   I tried colors and everything.

00:13:32   The colors seemed way too aggressive to me

00:13:34   because they come up around the edge.

00:13:37   And so you're not just seeing the color

00:13:39   on the back of your phone,

00:13:40   you're seeing the color framing everything

00:13:43   on your phone all the time.

00:13:44   And that to me, it just looked,

00:13:46   maybe it was 'cause I had just done it for the first time,

00:13:48   but it looked a little garish.

00:13:50   I didn't want this bright red,

00:13:53   three quarters of a rectangle around my content

00:13:55   all the time.

00:13:57   So I went with just the Apple Black leather case,

00:14:00   the same one I had used for the 6 and 6S.

00:14:03   It's fine.

00:14:05   I'm not incredibly happy with it, I gotta say,

00:14:07   just because it still has the same problem of like,

00:14:10   it collects dust around the rim between it

00:14:12   and the phone in the front.

00:14:13   It does cover up a lot of what makes this phone attractive,

00:14:16   like case design-wise.

00:14:19   It does smooth out the camera bump completely,

00:14:20   which is very nice, 'cause the iPhone X

00:14:22   has a very prominent camera bump,

00:14:24   even more so than the previous phones,

00:14:26   and it really stands up far off a desk

00:14:27   and makes it hard to lie flat.

00:14:29   So the Apple Other Case does fix that,

00:14:31   but ultimately, the one thing I'm kinda dissatisfied with

00:14:34   is just that it makes the phone a lot bigger in the hand.

00:14:37   And I know, Casey, you didn't,

00:14:39   did you ever use yours caseless?

00:14:42   I have very, very, very, very briefly,

00:14:45   but I am way too scared,

00:14:47   especially since I didn't pony up for AppleCare this time,

00:14:50   I am way too scared to do it with any sort of regularity.

00:14:53   And so it is almost exclusively lived in the weather case.

00:14:57   In the leather case.

00:14:59   And so I do quite like the leather case.

00:15:02   I've used leather cases on and off

00:15:04   for most of my history with iPhones.

00:15:07   I feel like this one, I am particularly,

00:15:12   know if I'm looking for what word I'm looking for frustrated annoyed displeased but one of those

00:15:16   negative adjectives because I feel like I'm getting way more pocket lint around the sides

00:15:22   than I've ever had before that's probably me being completely bananas but it just seems that way and

00:15:28   I think because the phone is a little bit thicker to begin with than the seven which in and of

00:15:34   itself fine but then add to your point the leather case on top of that which is not thin and by

00:15:41   by comparison to the 7, which I've been handling

00:15:45   once or twice a week for various reasons,

00:15:46   trying to get old data off my phone or whatever,

00:15:49   it feels way thicker than my 7 does.

00:15:52   And if you recall, my 7, I did not use a case on

00:15:55   for the first time in forever,

00:15:56   because I did get AppleCare and ended up breaking the screen.

00:16:00   And this, (laughing)

00:16:02   AppleCare or not, this one, I just don't trust myself,

00:16:06   because I think I will break it without question.

00:16:09   So that is many words to say.

00:16:11   I have the leather case.

00:16:12   I have often used the leather case.

00:16:14   And I feel like it's the best option I've seen,

00:16:17   but I don't really love it.

00:16:19   - Yeah, I was thinking about trying out

00:16:22   like one of those dbrand skins that MKBHD likes a lot.

00:16:24   I have one of those on my,

00:16:27   I tried one of those on my 6 and my 6 Plus

00:16:29   back when I was experimenting with those.

00:16:31   And they were decent.

00:16:33   They were especially good values

00:16:34   'cause they were really cheap.

00:16:35   It was like 12 bucks for the whole phone

00:16:37   or something like that.

00:16:38   It's a very good price, very good value,

00:16:40   but I don't think they look particularly good.

00:16:42   I think they look a little bit cheesy and tacky.

00:16:44   And the main problem I had is that it just didn't provide

00:16:48   that much more grip than just the Bear phone.

00:16:51   So I think what I'm probably gonna do is

00:16:54   use the leather case on and off, like when it's cold

00:16:56   and my hands are all dry and slippery,

00:16:58   but then most of the time when I don't need it

00:17:01   for that reason, just use it Bear again,

00:17:03   because it's so much more pleasant

00:17:05   using it without a case.

00:17:07   - It definitely is, and remind me,

00:17:09   you do or do not have AppleCare on that?

00:17:11   - I do not.

00:17:12   - Oh, you are a brave soul.

00:17:14   - No, I mean, and look, I admit it's a risk,

00:17:18   but it's also $200 plus the fee to replace it if I drop it,

00:17:23   plus there's a limit on how many times you can drop it,

00:17:25   and it's like, okay, let me see if I ever actually drop it,

00:17:28   and if I start dropping it so much

00:17:30   that I think an extra $200 a year is a good deal,

00:17:34   then I will change my policy.

00:17:36   But again, right now, because I've never

00:17:38   dropped and broken a phone, so far,

00:17:40   it's not a good policy for me.

00:17:42   - Yeah, I don't know.

00:17:43   I mean, really the only clear, obvious answer

00:17:47   is to just put it in a little baggie

00:17:49   every time you're done using it.

00:17:51   I mean, why else, why would you do anything else?

00:17:53   It's the only logical conclusion.

00:17:54   - Keeps the screen clean.

00:17:55   - Oh my God.

00:17:56   - Don't have to worry about scratching on stuff

00:17:58   in my pockets, it's only when I'm outside the house.

00:18:00   (laughing)

00:18:02   Not when I'm in the house.

00:18:03   - See, to me, the screen would even,

00:18:05   or the little pouch that Jon has to drop his phone in

00:18:07   and out of, that to me would increase the risk

00:18:09   of dropping it, because that's one more thing

00:18:11   that you have to put it into,

00:18:14   and what if you slightly miss the edge of the pouch

00:18:17   and it falls off?

00:18:18   - Yeah, that could happen.

00:18:20   I've never dropped my phone,

00:18:21   but if you are prone to dropping,

00:18:23   this probably increases your chances of dropping.

00:18:25   - Right. - This is one more opportunity

00:18:26   to miss something.

00:18:27   - Right, and on the way out, too,

00:18:28   it's like here's one more thing you have to take

00:18:30   the phone out of, maybe if you reach into your pocket,

00:18:32   that you pull it out and maybe you forget

00:18:35   that it's in there and it accidentally slips

00:18:36   out the bottom of the pouch.

00:18:37   There's so many conditions where I think

00:18:39   that's actually increasing your risk of damage.

00:18:42   - It probably is, but like I said, it hasn't happened to me.

00:18:45   All of my phone drops are when I'm clumsily trying

00:18:48   to get it off of my nightstand and it's not in a pouch.

00:18:51   It's totally just because I'm not awake or it's dark

00:18:54   or I'm being careless.

00:18:56   That's the main place my phone falls is off of my nightstand

00:18:59   onto the rug or hardwood floor next to it.

00:19:02   So we were ostensibly doing follow-up at some point, right?

00:19:08   We got derailed with Marco's case, I suppose.

00:19:10   I think we were always ostensibly doing follow-up.

00:19:13   My MacBook Pro follow-up was quick.

00:19:16   Marco, I think you're right.

00:19:18   Are we ever really not in follow-up?

00:19:20   Oh, my word.

00:19:21   All right, so who added this glove thing?

00:19:24   I did, because remember we talked about the Kickstarter for those, like, touch ID fingerprint

00:19:29   sticker things that you can stick on your gloves.

00:19:31   Who knows if that's even a thing.

00:19:33   Well, we got a report that it actually is a thing,

00:19:35   of course, in Japan.

00:19:36   You can buy them for $7.

00:19:38   What do you mean, of course, in Japan?

00:19:39   What's that supposed to mean?

00:19:41   That's the old '80s or '90s stereotype

00:19:43   that Japan is living like 20 years in our future,

00:19:45   and everything is awesome there, which is not actually true.

00:19:48   But it's the old saw from back when I was a kid when Japan was

00:19:51   going to take over the world because they

00:19:52   could make better cars than us.

00:19:54   All right, good save.

00:19:55   Still can.

00:19:57   Not California.

00:19:59   Oh, god.

00:20:01   - You're the worst.

00:20:02   Oh wait, is this episode 250?

00:20:04   - Yeah, it is.

00:20:05   - Yay.

00:20:06   - Oh, this is our 250th spectacular.

00:20:08   What are we doing?

00:20:09   - Yeah, happy whatever this is.

00:20:10   - This is it.

00:20:11   We're doing a show.

00:20:12   (laughing)

00:20:14   - Oh my god, this is the most ATP moment

00:20:18   of any ATP moment.

00:20:20   - We're lucky we remembered it not too far into the show.

00:20:23   - I totally, I was not pretending not to remember it.

00:20:26   You did mention it like a week or two ago,

00:20:28   but I would not have thought.

00:20:30   I mean, Marco should think of it,

00:20:31   he sees the episode numbers when he does like the,

00:20:34   like writes out the files and stuff.

00:20:36   - Well, and I thought about it earlier this evening

00:20:38   when I recorded the ads,

00:20:40   but because I put them in a folder called ATP 250.

00:20:43   - There you go. - And I thought,

00:20:44   oh, it's this week, and then I promptly forgot

00:20:46   as soon as I stopped doing it.

00:20:47   (laughing)

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00:22:46   (upbeat music)

00:22:49   - Aaron Leonard writes, "I agree with most of your points,"

00:22:52   oh God, "on the 2016 MacBook Pro 15-inch,

00:22:55   but will make one point of exception.

00:22:57   I would not want to live without Touch ID

00:22:59   that was introduced on this model.

00:23:00   I'm a consultant and have to use 1Password constantly.

00:23:03   Oh, I remember those days.

00:23:04   Throughout the day to access client systems,

00:23:06   I have some RSI issues from time to time

00:23:07   and using a fingerprint versus constantly typing

00:23:10   to have my very long and complex master password

00:23:13   is life-changing to my workflow and efficiency.

00:23:15   The one feature offset, this one feature offsets

00:23:17   much of the criticism that I share

00:23:19   regarding the other issues.

00:23:21   I think that makes sense.

00:23:22   I've never used a computer with Touch ID.

00:23:25   If you recall, the most modern laptop I have is my MacBook Adorable.

00:23:29   The one I use for work is that piece of garbage that some popular Apple blogger recommended

00:23:34   recently that's like 13 years old.

00:23:36   Oh, it was Marco!

00:23:37   That's right.

00:23:38   So anyway, so I have a 2015 MacBook Pro.

00:23:43   I have only ever used Touch bars for like 30 seconds at a time in the Apple Store.

00:23:48   I don't know what this amazing future is where you can use Touch ID, but it sounds pretty

00:23:53   good.

00:23:54   But you know what sounds even better?

00:23:56   Face ID.

00:23:57   I want that in my life.

00:23:58   That's exactly why I put this in here.

00:23:59   It's like, yes, Touch ID is great, but really what you really want is Face ID.

00:24:04   Because then you don't even have to put your finger up and your face is always right there

00:24:07   in view of the camera and Touch ID on laptops will be so much better.

00:24:11   Or Face ID on laptops will be so much better than Touch ID.

00:24:14   And as someone who has touch ID, you know, obviously I don't use it because it's in clamshell

00:24:18   most of the time, but even when it's not in clamshell, like when I'm carrying it around

00:24:21   for meetings and have to unlock it, because, you know, I like all work laptops, it locks

00:24:24   instantly if you glance away from it for two seconds.

00:24:28   It is, and I don't know if this is the fault of touch ID, I don't think this is the fault

00:24:31   of touch ID, I think it's the fault of all the evil software that enterprises make you

00:24:34   put on your computer to make them crappier.

00:24:37   But god, you open that thing up, and I put my finger on that touch pad, and it's like

00:24:42   a long time before that computer does anything. Why? Probably has something to do with Active

00:24:45   Directory or Wi-Fi certificates or God knows what it's doing, but all I know is it's not

00:24:52   reading my fingerprint and unlocking the computer. Same thing when I disconnected and connected

00:24:56   from my really awesome super duper thunderbolt dock thingy that lets me have one cable that

00:25:01   plugs in to power this whole thing of peripherals. That's great. The part that's not great is

00:25:05   I plug or unplug that cable. I might as well go for a drink while my computer does something.

00:25:11   I don't know what it's doing.

00:25:13   Sometimes I get a beach ball, sometimes I don't get a beach ball.

00:25:16   Sometimes it remembers my clicks and replays them a minute later, sometimes it doesn't

00:25:19   remember my clicks and replays them later.

00:25:21   It just, it's like it says to me, "You're not going to use me for a while because I'm

00:25:26   doing something."

00:25:27   And maybe it's wrong for me to always play in my Active Directory, but I do pretty much

00:25:31   always play in my Active Directory because I was not formerly on the Active Directory

00:25:35   network with my old computer, and now I am and everything is worse.

00:25:39   One thing I've found which probably is not gonna be

00:25:43   helping your issues here unfortunately,

00:25:44   but when I first got my wonderful but used 2015,

00:25:48   it would occasionally fail to wake up from sleep.

00:25:52   And I thought this was a High Sierra bug.

00:25:55   But it turns out that it's just a 15 inch

00:25:57   MacBook Pro 2015 bug that seemed to exist before High Sierra

00:26:01   and it has to do apparently with Power Nap.

00:26:05   If you disable Power Nap, it completely stops.

00:26:08   that this problem just goes away completely.

00:26:11   I also notice sometimes that it would seem to be

00:26:15   running and warm while in my bag charging.

00:26:18   So very obviously a power nap related problem.

00:26:22   But I also, as part of the attempts to diagnose this problem,

00:26:27   disabled hibernation.

00:26:28   Because what every MacBook Pro does since the 2012 model,

00:26:33   is the 2012 retina model, not the 2012 non-retina.

00:26:37   because back then, when they introduced a radical new design

00:26:40   they also updated the previous design

00:26:42   with the new components.

00:26:44   Anyway, since 2012, Retina, Mappa Pro, and forward,

00:26:47   one of the reasons why they now get such better

00:26:49   standby battery life is that after a few hours

00:26:52   of not being woken up, if they're not plugged in,

00:26:55   they go into full hibernation,

00:26:56   which PC users have been familiar with for a long time,

00:26:58   which basically means they write the contents of RAM

00:27:00   to a file on disk and fully turn off.

00:27:02   Then when you boot it up it has to like,

00:27:04   kind of wake up from that deep hibernation

00:27:06   by reading that hyperfile back into RAM

00:27:09   and that's why it takes a little bit longer.

00:27:10   You might see a little bit different progress bar

00:27:11   when it boots up.

00:27:13   This is slow and crappy and if you are leaving

00:27:16   your computer unplugged from battery for two weeks,

00:27:20   it's very helpful.

00:27:21   But if you plug it in like every day

00:27:24   and you're just leaving it closed for a few hours,

00:27:27   then this is very annoying.

00:27:28   And so I disabled that, and by the way,

00:27:31   once you disable it, you can also delete

00:27:32   the hibernation file which can get you back

00:27:35   in disk space the amount of RAM you have, which is nice.

00:27:38   Look up on every Mac forum since 2012 on how to do this.

00:27:41   Since I disabled both Power Nap for the weird bugs

00:27:44   and the hibernation with whatever

00:27:47   like the pseudo PM set command is to do it,

00:27:49   it wakes up way faster from sleep.

00:27:52   'Cause what you're describing, John,

00:27:54   that's happened to every MacBook Pro for quite a while.

00:27:58   I did notice in my time using the touch bar versions,

00:28:02   that was always way worse on the touch bars.

00:28:04   So whatever it's doing, waking up from sleep or hibernation

00:28:07   or whatever it is, something seems to be extra long

00:28:11   or delayed or blocking or waiting for something

00:28:14   on TouchBar models.

00:28:15   That was worse when they first came out.

00:28:17   Subsequent software improvements have dropped

00:28:19   that delay somewhat, but they still do it.

00:28:21   Are you on High Sierra yet?

00:28:23   - Just gonna let Subsequent fly by, huh?

00:28:25   Okay, I guess it's only bezels.

00:28:27   - Subsequent, whatever, yeah, I know.

00:28:29   - Yeah, no, I don't think it's hibernation or PowerNap,

00:28:33   Although I routinely disable those as well, usually for disk space reasons.

00:28:36   I've been doing that ever since the RAM got so big that it started to eat a chunk of it.

00:28:41   But come to think of it, maybe I didn't do that on my work Mac.

00:28:43   But I'm sure it's not hibernating.

00:28:44   This is me.

00:28:45   I close it, and then 30 seconds later I open it.

00:28:47   It hasn't gone into hibernation at that point.

00:28:50   It's not like the screen is inert when it's coming out of hibernation.

00:28:53   Some things work, and sometimes I can click and bring an application to the front before

00:28:56   the beach ball appears, but then eventually it stops responding.

00:28:59   Power nap I haven't looked into.

00:29:00   Because again, like, you know, Power Nap should only happen like, "Oh, your computer's been

00:29:03   asleep for a while, now it's going to check email or some crap or do local time machine

00:29:06   snapshots."

00:29:07   And I haven't disabled that and I'm sure my computer is doing that if it would ever go

00:29:12   to sleep.

00:29:13   I think I have it set never to sleep because it's plugged in in battery power.

00:29:16   But maybe there's some other weird interaction where if Power Nap is enabled at all, it does

00:29:19   some weird thing and you just wake it up.

00:29:20   So I'll try both those things and get back to you.

00:29:22   But I don't like having to do this voodoo.

00:29:23   I like to just open the computer up and I mean the screen turns on immediately and it

00:29:28   It seems like it's ready to go in terms of like the mouse cursor moves.

00:29:36   It's like golf is a good walk spoiled.

00:29:38   Laptops are a good computer spoiled.

00:29:42   Like just desktops, they work fine.

00:29:43   You walk up to them, you wiggle the mouse, you hit the keyboard, you're there.

00:29:47   You just go and the computer's like, "Yes, I'm here.

00:29:49   Use me now."

00:29:50   And the laptop's like, "I don't know.

00:29:51   I don't know about that."

00:29:52   And that's what makes Touch ID worse is because your finger's there and it's like, "Can I

00:29:56   lift my finger?

00:29:57   And should I put my finger down?

00:29:58   Should I wait for the little animation on the touch bar saying Touch ID here?

00:30:01   Has it already authenticated me and I'm just waiting?

00:30:03   That's often the case.

00:30:04   Sometimes it's already authenticated.

00:30:05   I give up, I take my finger off and I'm like, "Come on, computer, what are you doing?"

00:30:08   And then it unlocks, like based on a finger that was laid on there like 15 seconds ago.

00:30:12   I don't like laptops.

00:30:14   You know, you're right.

00:30:17   When I am in a car in the passenger seat and I need to do a little bit of work, I like

00:30:21   bringing my iMac and my inverter.

00:30:25   You have nothing to be ashamed of.

00:30:27   - Nothing to apologize for, sorry I blew it,

00:30:29   oh my God I'm getting too old.

00:30:31   - When I'm on an airplane, you know what the best way

00:30:33   to use a computer on an airplane is?

00:30:35   27 inch iMac, hell yeah.

00:30:38   That's where I like to use my desktops.

00:30:40   - What I'm learning over time as I get old

00:30:42   and more like Jon is that I would rather just not

00:30:46   use a computer in a car and just wait

00:30:49   to get back to my 27 inch iMac.

00:30:51   - Oh my God, listeners, I hope somebody out there

00:30:56   is face--I literally just face-palmed. I hope somebody else out there is face-palming as

00:31:01   bad as I am because you guys, man, the combined age of the two of you is approximately 134

00:31:07   years old.

00:31:08   No, no, actually, the real answer, I mean, the thing that both Marco and I think everyone

00:31:11   would agree on, iOS devices. Like, they--you don't have problems with iOS devices. Imagine

00:31:15   if you took out your iOS device, like your iPad, and hit the power switch and had to

00:31:18   wait the amount of time I have to wait to use my laptop. It would be like, "Is this

00:31:20   thing broken?" Right? It instantly, like, face ID, touch ID, it's like ready to go,

00:31:26   instantly, immediately. None of this whole like, "Let me wake up and do whatever I'm

00:31:30   doing and put a beach ball" there's no place to put a beach ball anywhere. If an iOS device

00:31:34   does that it seems broken. And it made more sense like, "Well, iOS devices, you can only

00:31:40   run one application at a time and they're highly optimized." But at this point iOS devices

00:31:44   have faster CPUs than Macs, are multitasking, they're still RAM starved, but they're full

00:31:50   fledged machines and it's just something something in the the remember when there

00:31:55   was an effort a while back to this was a public marketing effort or just

00:32:00   something that people would say behind closed doors or whatever that trying to

00:32:03   make the Mac experience like the iOS experience like when you just open it up

00:32:07   and it's ready to go actually that was on stage wasn't it didn't Steve Jobs say

00:32:10   that at one point like the MacBook Air is like no effort it was based it was a

00:32:14   it was a story that that had gotten out of Apple that apparently Steve there

00:32:18   There was a famous meeting where Steve walked in

00:32:20   and dropped a MacBook Air on the table

00:32:22   and had an iPad and turned the iPad on from sleep

00:32:26   and just comes on and he's,

00:32:27   what's the MacBook Air, like why can't this do that?

00:32:29   Something like that. - There you go.

00:32:31   Yeah, so who knows if it was real or not,

00:32:32   but anyway, I endorse that idea.

00:32:34   The iOS devices feel so much better

00:32:37   because there's so much crap that it's just unacceptable

00:32:39   on an iOS device and on the Mac we're still suffering

00:32:42   under the burden of this older behavior

00:32:45   that I guess laptop users just live with

00:32:47   and just think it's the price of using a laptop,

00:32:49   and I don't like it.

00:32:51   - Well, the job that a laptop has to do

00:32:55   is way more complicated.

00:32:56   A lot of that waking up from sleep delay

00:32:58   is stuff like checking USB peripherals

00:33:01   and stuff like that that iPads don't have to worry about.

00:33:03   But a lot of it is just legacy stuff

00:33:04   they could get rid of if they really tried.

00:33:07   But the Mac is not in a position

00:33:10   where it's getting a lot of effort

00:33:11   for the most part, it seems.

00:33:13   - I thought that Macs hibernated

00:33:15   every time they went to sleep.

00:33:17   they just kept the memory powered on until the battery had dropped quite a bit or was

00:33:22   at a dangerous level or something like that. I thought they always wrote the contents of

00:33:26   RAM to disk every single time.

00:33:28   I hope that's not true. Again, I routinely disable it on the laptops that are in my house

00:33:34   just to save the disk space, but if that's also a benefit, I'll look into it. I'll make

00:33:38   sure it's off on my work phone and see how it goes.

00:33:41   Last bit of follow-up. Dan Lear writes in, this is with regard to our Thanksgiving list

00:33:45   from last episode. Nobody's thankful for the Switch. I'm surprised the Switch didn't make

00:33:49   anyone's list, despite how much time you've talked about Zelda, Mario Kart, Stardew Valley,

00:33:53   and playing with friends and family, etc. For me, it was both an omission by accident

00:34:00   and somewhat deliberately. I still do use my Switch from time to time. I still... Well,

00:34:05   so some... I think Jon put this in the show notes and he cut the key piece that which

00:34:09   was, I believe Dan had said, basically, is this because it was a fad or because you just

00:34:15   don't or you just didn't think of it and for me it's kind of both right like I

00:34:19   didn't think of it at the time but even if I had I don't know that I would have

00:34:22   said it because I don't use my switch near as much as I did when I first got

00:34:27   it and I do still like it and I'm glad I spent the money on it but it's very rare

00:34:32   I find myself picking that up in the evenings but I've also been just super

00:34:35   super busy for quite a long time now but you know when my my family gets together

00:34:40   you know, like well really Aaron's family a couple of my

00:34:43   in-laws have

00:34:45   Have switches and so we've been you know

00:34:48   Generally speaking bringing them with us when we have a family function and we'll play like a couple rounds of Mario Kart or something like that

00:34:53   So I am thankful for it. I definitely like it. But that is what is the top four etiquette?

00:34:59   That's my number five or tied for number four or is this my like my seventh place tie for number one

00:35:04   I saw one of your 17 honorable mentions. That's what it is. Yeah, it's one of my 17 honorable mentions

00:35:08   That's right. But what about the two of you guys?

00:35:11   - I mean, for me, I should have put the Switch on my list,

00:35:16   and I simply forgot about it while making that list,

00:35:18   which is funny because I played it like an hour before

00:35:21   and played it again the next day. (laughs)

00:35:24   So yeah, the Switch has been fantastic for me.

00:35:27   And as the audience knows,

00:35:29   I am not much of a gamer at all most of the time.

00:35:33   I usually get into one game a year, maybe.

00:35:37   I'll be into it for like a week or two,

00:35:38   and then I'll stop, and then that'll be it.

00:35:41   And because Tiff, my wife, is a gamer,

00:35:44   we usually have all or some

00:35:47   of the current generation game consoles

00:35:50   in the house, ready to go.

00:35:51   And I hardly ever touch them,

00:35:53   because I just don't care that much.

00:35:56   The Switch has changed that.

00:35:58   It's really good.

00:36:00   And this isn't about a console, this is about the games.

00:36:02   And Nintendo was in such a bad place with the Wii U,

00:36:06   they were in such a rush to get this out

00:36:09   that they didn't have time to mess it up

00:36:10   with getting too far up their own butts

00:36:12   about what they were gonna do

00:36:13   about some gimmicky hardware thing.

00:36:15   They just made really great games

00:36:16   for a really convenient system,

00:36:18   and there's no other gimmicks about it, and it's great.

00:36:20   It's just so, so great.

00:36:23   And in particular, like, you know,

00:36:26   Tiff and Adam really enjoyed Zelda together.

00:36:29   I really enjoyed Mario Kart and Sonic Mania.

00:36:33   We all have been really enjoying Stardew Valley.

00:36:36   And there's so many more games.

00:36:38   Like, I've bought games on it that I haven't even run yet.

00:36:41   Just because I heard they were so great,

00:36:43   I bought them thinking I'd play them

00:36:44   and I haven't even had time,

00:36:45   I haven't been too busy playing all the other great games.

00:36:47   Like, there's a surplus of amazing games for it

00:36:51   that we haven't even had a chance to play all of yet.

00:36:53   That's how many great games there are.

00:36:55   And so, to have all this in a mid-priced system

00:36:59   that's very practical to have in your life,

00:37:02   because it can be both portable and stationary,

00:37:04   although honestly I don't like the portable version of it

00:37:06   the screen's too small and the controllers are too skinny and they give my--

00:37:09   You have problems with the portable thing, you don't say?

00:37:13   Yeah, and the input device is surprising.

00:37:19   Marco the jokes right themselves, my friend.

00:37:21   I know. I also, I honestly, I do wish I had an HDMI port.

00:37:25   Oh god. Good grief.

00:37:29   I need to start a holiday party.

00:37:34   But just playing it as a home console for me,

00:37:38   it's just great, it's such a great system

00:37:41   with such great games.

00:37:43   The Switch, I am happier with the Switch

00:37:46   than any video game or video game system

00:37:50   at least in the last decade.

00:37:52   - Did you like your Sega consoles more?

00:37:54   - Yeah, but those were more than,

00:37:56   my one Sega console, my Genesis. (laughs)

00:37:59   But that was a long time ago when the Genesis was current,

00:38:02   was in like 1993. So...

00:38:04   - Yeah, totally. No, no, I'm not trying to mess with you.

00:38:07   I'm saying, you know, to the best that you can remember

00:38:09   how you felt when you were 11,

00:38:11   do you feel like the Genesis provided you more joy

00:38:14   than the Switch does?

00:38:15   And obviously that's a tough question

00:38:16   'cause you're a very different person now,

00:38:17   but if you had to choose only one, you know,

00:38:22   in their current time,

00:38:23   so I'm not asking you to choose the Genesis

00:38:25   over the Switch today, you know,

00:38:26   what do you think you would do?

00:38:29   I need another year with the Switch to really know.

00:38:32   It's a little too early.

00:38:33   So far, I think they're probably pretty close to each other

00:38:36   in that way.

00:38:38   It's just so damn good.

00:38:40   And honestly, I've had an Xbox, like the first one,

00:38:43   I was gonna say an Xbox One, but that's something else now.

00:38:46   So I had the first Xbox, which I got pre-modded

00:38:49   with a mod chip so I could rip games onto the hard drive

00:38:52   and install XBMC, which is now Plex, basically.

00:38:55   Stuff like that.

00:38:57   That's kind of where it all started.

00:38:59   And so I had that, I had a Wii,

00:39:04   the first Wii, not the stupid you, sorry, John.

00:39:06   I had the PS3 and 4 and a 360.

00:39:11   And I had a lot of fun with some of those.

00:39:14   But none of them were as good as the Switch,

00:39:16   just game library-wise.

00:39:18   So I'm very much enjoying this.

00:39:21   And anybody who used to have fun with games,

00:39:25   it has maybe fallen out of it like I did, give the Switch a try. It's really fun.

00:39:30   Jon?

00:39:31   Well, I totally forgot about the Switch, but if I had remembered it, I wouldn't have

00:39:35   listed the Switch for actually for a lot of the same reasons Marco mentioned, because

00:39:39   I never used it in Portal mode, if I can help it, because it's not ergonomically, it

00:39:43   just doesn't fit me ergonomically. I never take the little Joy-Cons off of it, I just

00:39:47   leave it on there. I only use the Pro Controller with it, I only hook it up to the TV. And

00:39:53   In that way, as a console, I don't think it's a...

00:39:56   It's not my favorite...

00:39:58   I wouldn't have listed it as a thing that I'm thankful for, because I think the Pro

00:40:02   Controller is not as good as the GameCube controller, or maybe not even as good as the

00:40:07   Wii U Pro Controller.

00:40:09   And the fact that it's this weird portable thing that I have to put into a dock and hook

00:40:13   up to my TV, and it just doesn't...

00:40:15   It's compromised by the fact that it needs to be portable.

00:40:17   I wish it was more powerful, blah, blah, blah.

00:40:19   All my typical complaints about Nintendo consoles.

00:40:21   So if I listed something, what I would have listed is the games.

00:40:24   And specifically I would have listed Zelda, which for me is head and shoulders.

00:40:27   Like the other games are great, like I love them, but Zelda is the most important Nintendo

00:40:31   franchise for me.

00:40:33   And this was a very significant Zelda game breaking with the past in lots of very interesting

00:40:37   ways.

00:40:38   And I just thought it was an amazing game.

00:40:40   Probably still not my favorite Zelda, but a lot of people ask me that.

00:40:42   You know, as much as I love it and it does so many things so much better than every other

00:40:47   Zelda has ever done them, it falls down in a couple areas.

00:40:49   But that's what I would have listed.

00:40:50   I will have said Breath of the Wild as the thing that I should have been thankful for.

00:40:54   It just slipped my mind.

00:40:56   It's funny to me that you guys are lamenting the portability of it because, holy smokes,

00:41:04   some of the—almost all of the fun I've had with the Switch is because I've been

00:41:10   in some sort of group setting.

00:41:12   Some of the most fun times I've had with the Switch has been the handful of times that

00:41:15   we played Mario Kart together at work and we'd all gather around a few tables or some

00:41:20   something, and sit there and play Mario Kart against each other. And it's like, you know,

00:41:25   all the great parts about a LAN party back in the day, where you can shout and yell at

00:41:29   your friends and, you know, and call them terrible names and whatnot, because they're

00:41:36   sitting right next to you. And you can do all of that without having to—and here I'm

00:41:40   telling you how old I am—without having to lug like a 50-pound CRT to your friend's

00:41:44   house. You know, so I'm not trying to say you're wrong. I'm really honestly not. I'm

00:41:50   I'm just saying I'm surprised that you guys don't really favor the portability at all,

00:41:57   because that is, like I said to you about my family, and certainly at work from time

00:42:01   to time, that is—and even at WWDC, I organized on Beacon, I think it was.

00:42:06   I organized a little get-together for playing Mario Kart.

00:42:10   And to me, those are such fun times, and they really define the Switch to me in a way that

00:42:17   no other console I've had has really worked.

00:42:20   And everyone's allowed their own experience,

00:42:22   I'm just super surprised.

00:42:24   - I mean, I would love the portability

00:42:25   to work out better and more often for me.

00:42:28   And I occasionally will, I'll take it to like,

00:42:30   if I know I'm gonna be sitting in a doctor's office

00:42:32   waiting room for a little while, I'll take it sometimes.

00:42:34   But it's just, using the Joy-Cons

00:42:37   is just very uncomfortable for me.

00:42:39   They're clearly made for much smaller hands.

00:42:41   It's probably made for children and teenagers

00:42:43   to be able to comfortably use.

00:42:45   and I just, I can't, it hurts my hands to use it

00:42:48   for more than a few minutes.

00:42:50   Because I'm also accustomed to playing on a giant,

00:42:53   nice OLED TV, with speakers and everything,

00:42:58   sitting on the couch with the Pro Controller,

00:43:00   the portable experience, the screen is noticeably crappier.

00:43:05   I don't get my wonderful OLED black levels.

00:43:07   It's a very, very small screen for old people like me

00:43:10   and Jon, and people with broken eyes like you.

00:43:13   Like it's a really small screen compared to

00:43:15   most modern TVs and so to me it just doesn't work as well

00:43:19   in portable mode and I'm probably the only person

00:43:24   in the world, like normally Nintendo's portable consoles,

00:43:28   they eventually get like mini versions or new versions.

00:43:31   I'm the only person I think in the world wanting

00:43:33   the Switch XL to actually basically get really fat.

00:43:36   (laughs)

00:43:37   Like I want a Switch that doesn't have detachable controllers

00:43:41   that basically has controller wings

00:43:44   that are approximately the shape of a pro controller.

00:43:46   And the whole thing gets bigger to accommodate a screen

00:43:50   closer to maybe an iPad mini size.

00:43:53   Like that's what I would like.

00:43:54   I don't think they're going to make that

00:43:55   because no one else wants that except me and maybe Jon.

00:43:59   But ultimately the portability,

00:44:01   it's too small to be comfortable for me.

00:44:04   - I don't want it to be thicker,

00:44:05   I want it to be a GameCube.

00:44:08   I want it to be a non-portable console without a screen on it that's like four times as powerful.

00:44:15   But again, that's not what people want.

00:44:16   The main appeal of the Switch, to be clear, for most people is exactly what you said,

00:44:20   Casey.

00:44:21   Hey, it's the same game, portable and on your TV, and it works great in both places.

00:44:24   That is the main appeal.

00:44:25   But Marco and I just happen to be oddballs both in the camp where we want to play it

00:44:29   sitting on our couches and that's that.

00:44:30   And we're happy with it there.

00:44:31   Like it's not like I have, you know, my complaint is that it's not powerful enough and it's

00:44:35   compromised by that.

00:44:36   I enjoy the games.

00:44:38   Breath of the Wild was an amazing game, especially given the power of the console.

00:44:43   We are sponsored this week by Eero.

00:44:46   Finally, Wi-Fi that works.

00:44:48   Go to Eero.com and use promo code ATP at checkout to make overnight shipping free to the US

00:44:53   and Canada.

00:44:54   Wi-Fi has always had two problems for most people.

00:44:57   One, it doesn't reach your whole house.

00:44:58   There's always weak zones or dead zones or it doesn't reach the back room.

00:45:02   And two, it's usually really hard to set up,

00:45:04   especially for non-technical people.

00:45:06   Eero solves both of these problems.

00:45:09   So number one, they know, as we do,

00:45:11   that no matter how many antennas you stick on top

00:45:13   of a router, it's never gonna cover

00:45:15   your entire house perfectly.

00:45:17   You need multiple access points.

00:45:19   You need to be broadcasting that signal

00:45:20   from multiple different little boxes around your house,

00:45:22   not just one somewhere, like in the basement

00:45:24   or in the middle somewhere.

00:45:26   Eero solves that problem perfectly

00:45:27   by having multiple radios.

00:45:29   So they have two different models.

00:45:30   they have the standard Eero base station.

00:45:33   And this is now the second generation one

00:45:34   that has a much faster radio, much faster throughput,

00:45:37   and they also now have these little beacons

00:45:39   that you can plug in at different points around the house

00:45:42   to help broadcast more WiFi signal.

00:45:44   The beacons are these little flush things,

00:45:46   they sit flush against the wall just in an outlet.

00:45:48   It looks kinda like a big nightlight,

00:45:50   and in fact they even built in a nightlight

00:45:51   just to help you make it a little more useful.

00:45:53   And you can plug 'em in anywhere.

00:45:55   Everything is now faster, longer range, better performance.

00:45:58   So they solved the coverage problem

00:46:00   better than anything else I've seen.

00:46:01   And then they also solve the ease of use problem,

00:46:04   also better than anything else I've ever seen.

00:46:06   This is one area, you know, if you're a nerd

00:46:08   and you've used multiple access point Wi-Fi systems before,

00:46:10   like I have, you will be shocked how easy Eero is to set up.

00:46:14   It is really quite something else to see.

00:46:16   And it's so easy, I can easily recommend it

00:46:19   to any kind of non-technical friends or family

00:46:21   you might have if you need to help them

00:46:23   with their Wi-Fi this year.

00:46:24   Check out Eero, you will be shocked how easy it is,

00:46:27   and the performance is wonderful,

00:46:29   especially with this new second generation hardware.

00:46:32   The new beacons are small, discreet,

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00:46:36   You can put them pretty much anywhere,

00:46:37   and they have the nightlight built in.

00:46:38   Check it out today.

00:46:39   Go to Eero.com, that's E-E-R-O.com,

00:46:42   and use promo code ATP at checkout

00:46:44   to get free overnight shipping to the US and Canada.

00:46:47   Thank you so much to Eero for sponsoring our show.

00:46:49   (upbeat music)

00:46:52   - So we should move on to Ask ATP,

00:46:54   and conveniently we have a Switch related question.

00:46:57   Star Susumi writes,

00:46:58   Have you guys played Super Mario Odyssey?

00:47:01   How do you think about it?

00:47:02   What do you think of it?

00:47:03   And I have not, and that's in no small part

00:47:06   because I haven't really touched my Switch

00:47:07   very much recently, but let's start with Marco.

00:47:09   Marco, have you played Super Mario Odyssey?

00:47:11   - Not yet, I'm still spending all my Switch time

00:47:14   in Stardew Valley, and behind that I also have

00:47:16   the Mario Rabbids game, and I still have to finish

00:47:20   the last few zones of Sonic Mania,

00:47:22   and there's so many games, I can't keep up.

00:47:26   But I'm also, I'm a little bit concerned

00:47:28   that it might not like Mario Odyssey

00:47:29   because people are saying it's almost like a cross

00:47:32   between Mario 64 and Zelda.

00:47:35   - That is not true.

00:47:36   - Okay, 'cause I didn't,

00:47:38   I never liked the way the Mario series went 3D very much.

00:47:41   Like it was really cool at the time,

00:47:43   like for Mario 64, but like,

00:47:45   I always liked the 2D ones a lot better.

00:47:47   And Zelda's not really my kind of game,

00:47:48   like the kind of big adventure RPG kind of thing.

00:47:51   So Jon, should I be playing Mario Odyssey?

00:47:53   - If you don't like 3D Marios,

00:47:55   Super Mario Odyssey is a 3D Mario.

00:47:57   I like 3D Mario, so I like Super Mario Odyssey, and in the pantheon of 3D Marios, I don't

00:48:02   know where I'd put it.

00:48:04   I really liked Galaxy as well.

00:48:06   Galaxy was very different and had, I think, more of a twist on the typical Mario formula,

00:48:12   even if it was more constrained by being on little planets and doing stuff.

00:48:16   And Mario Odyssey is a little bit more of a return to conventions of, well, it's just

00:48:21   regular 3D Mario with a little bit more open world,

00:48:24   but Mario Odyssey is so unashamedly wacky.

00:48:28   In some ways, I feel like it's sillier than I want it to be.

00:48:32   Like, I take Mario more seriously than this game does.

00:48:35   But in other ways, it's highlighted to me

00:48:37   exactly how much more I like some of the other franchises.

00:48:40   Like, Zelda is my number one,

00:48:42   and I think even Metroid has been elevated

00:48:44   to potentially the other franchise

00:48:45   that I'm more excited about.

00:48:47   But as far as Mario games go,

00:48:50   if you like 3D Mario games, you'll like this.

00:48:51   For Marco, maybe something that will keep him interested in

00:48:54   is they do have tons of nostalgic pandering

00:48:58   to the people who are fans of 2D Mario,

00:49:01   but I don't, if you really don't like 3D Mario,

00:49:03   I'm not sure that'll be enough to keep you interesting.

00:49:05   But I would say just like, honestly, play it,

00:49:07   like, and let, you know, let Adam play it and just watch.

00:49:12   Like, it's just such a fun game.

00:49:13   It's so unashamed to say,

00:49:16   there is no rhyme or reason why this is here.

00:49:18   It's just because it's fun.

00:49:19   And there's lots of fun things to do and explore and play with.

00:49:23   And you can kind of go at your own pace.

00:49:24   And it's very, very gentle.

00:49:26   And it's not particularly punishing,

00:49:28   except for a couple of checkpoints

00:49:29   that are a little farther back than I would want them to be.

00:49:33   So I say you should definitely get it,

00:49:35   because I think your family as a whole will have fun with it.

00:49:37   Whether you will spend more than a little time with it,

00:49:39   I don't know.

00:49:40   All right.

00:49:41   MZ writes, do you use robotic vacuum cleaners?

00:49:44   If yes, what brands and use cases work for you?

00:49:47   And if not, why?

00:49:48   I have never owned a Roomba or anything like it.

00:49:51   I would guess that if I were to get one,

00:49:53   I would get a Roomba because marketing.

00:49:56   But I've never used one and have never

00:49:59   really felt a need for it.

00:50:01   - I have experience with Roombas here and there,

00:50:03   but not a lot of experience, and none of it that was

00:50:07   so compelling that I thought I must have one of these.

00:50:10   I don't know if they've gotten better

00:50:13   meaningfully since then, but the limitations

00:50:15   they had back then were basically like,

00:50:18   You know, they couldn't, they wouldn't really get

00:50:20   everywhere, they wouldn't really be able to go

00:50:21   on all surfaces and rugs and everything.

00:50:24   They would occasionally get stuck and complain

00:50:25   in some kind of happy song.

00:50:27   I know at least the newer ones will like go back

00:50:29   to their base and charge themselves, which is nice.

00:50:32   But it just seems like a lot of trouble and noise

00:50:36   and expense and hassle and one more electronic thing

00:50:40   to manage to solve a problem part way.

00:50:43   And it's like, well, you still have to vacuum.

00:50:46   if it can't do the whole house effectively.

00:50:49   So I'm not, maybe these things are better

00:50:52   than I remember them, or maybe they've gotten better,

00:50:54   but my limited experience with them is not compelling.

00:50:58   - I've never had one, and I've never thought

00:51:00   about buying one, just because it just doesn't seem

00:51:02   like it can do the job.

00:51:03   I mean, you can see how big they are,

00:51:04   like these little pucks.

00:51:06   I've got more crap in my house than fits in there.

00:51:08   I see how much is in the clear bagless container

00:51:12   of my thing when I actually vacuum the entire

00:51:14   first floor of the house, that's not gonna fit in a Roomba. Roomba can't empty itself,

00:51:18   and so yeah, it just seems like, I mean it looks like a fun novelty, and if you have

00:51:21   them just sort of let you go longer between actually vacuuming, I can see that. Or if

00:51:27   you have a house where you don't have pets that are going to attack it and/or feel attacked

00:51:31   by it, which is another factor in having an autonomous thing wandering around your house,

00:51:35   but nope, never tried it. I put this question in there just because I thought maybe Marco

00:51:38   might have it now that he's got all his little like uh, light switch clappers and all his

00:51:41   other home automation stuff, but I guess clappers still, yeah, you're still resisting the, uh,

00:51:47   the, the robot invasion of our homes.

00:51:49   [Clapper Music]

00:51:56   All right. And finally, this is for Marco. Eric New writes, "What fraction of total audio

00:52:00   gets cut by Marco for the finished podcast?" So I will say to set you up, Marco, that we record at

00:52:06   about nine o'clock in the evening our time and typically end between 11 45 and midnight and and

00:52:13   we are recording pretty much that entire time now that may or may not be us acting like we're

00:52:18   recording if that makes any sense like we may be kind of a little more casual and not really expect

00:52:22   some of that to go on the show but you know i give marco an mp3 each and every week that's roughly

00:52:28   two and a half to three hours long and you know the released episodes are anywhere from an hour

00:52:34   hour and a half to like two hours usually.

00:52:38   - Eh, it's more like 145 to 215.

00:52:41   - Yeah, but that's the simple answer.

00:52:43   So Marco, what's the real answer?

00:52:45   - I mean, it's, you know, basically if you figure out

00:52:46   from what you said, like, you know, we do usually record

00:52:48   for about two and a half hours.

00:52:50   The finished episode has six minutes of ads,

00:52:54   plus the theme song, which is about a minute long.

00:52:56   So you figure I have about seven minutes of added content

00:52:59   that isn't part of the live recording.

00:53:01   And a two and a half hour show, so that's about

00:53:03   two hours and 37 minutes of total content before cutting,

00:53:07   and then the show is about 1.45 to 2.15,

00:53:10   so you figure I'm cutting maybe 20 minutes.

00:53:12   Now, that's not like an even 20 or 30 minutes

00:53:16   throughout the show that I'm cutting.

00:53:18   It's mostly like cutting the first two or three minutes

00:53:20   of the call, where we're just setting up,

00:53:23   hey, is Jon here, is Casey here,

00:53:25   setting up this crap that nobody ever wants to hear about.

00:53:28   And then after we have decided we're done recording,

00:53:31   talking about, oh, let's pick some titles,

00:53:34   and then maybe tell the live listeners,

00:53:35   oh, next week we're gonna be recording on Tuesday

00:53:38   instead of Wednesday.

00:53:39   So like, you know, bookkeeping at the end of the show

00:53:41   or just kind of like, you know,

00:53:43   kind of like casual talking at the end,

00:53:44   but it's not good enough to be in the show.

00:53:46   That's what most of the cutting actually is,

00:53:48   is the beginning and the end.

00:53:50   And don't worry, you're not missing much.

00:53:52   I cut it because it isn't very interesting.

00:53:54   So, you know, the release version of the show

00:53:57   contains almost everything that we actually say

00:54:00   that is actually part of the show as we hear it live.

00:54:05   - Almost everything that's in the show is in the show,

00:54:08   is what he's trying to say.

00:54:09   (laughing)

00:54:10   - Exactly. - Yeah.

00:54:11   And if it's a show where Jon talks a lot,

00:54:13   a lot less is cut.

00:54:14   If it's a show where I talk a lot, a lot more is cut.

00:54:17   - Yeah, you can always fix it in the post, right?

00:54:19   - And I do.

00:54:21   - Moving on.

00:54:22   So there's a little bit of a kerfuffle earlier this week.

00:54:24   We're recording this on Wednesday evening,

00:54:26   and there has just been released.

00:54:30   a patch for a rather unique bug that has sprung up in High Sierra.

00:54:37   And I never actually tried it, but my understanding is if you go into System Preferences, and

00:54:44   I think into Security, and then you click the lock and hit Enter, and then enter the

00:54:50   username root and an empty password and try that, and you might have to do the stance

00:54:55   a little bit, but eventually you will get to the point that suddenly you have set the

00:55:01   root password on that High Sierra installed for Macintosh.

00:55:06   And that is a problem, because if you're not familiar, root is basically the god account

00:55:11   on any Unix-based system.

00:55:14   And so if you can finagle root access to a computer, well a Mac I should say, then you

00:55:23   You basically can do anything you want.

00:55:26   And this is a bit of an issue.

00:55:28   And there are a little bit, you know, I think most people have a little bit of a problem

00:55:33   with the way in which it was publicized, which was via a tweet, which is not terribly responsible.

00:55:38   But we don't know what happened before then.

00:55:39   Maybe it was responsibly disclosed.

00:55:41   Somebody then eventually had discovered that about two weeks ago, this was posted in Apple's

00:55:47   own developer forums, which is kind of amusing.

00:55:51   And Patrick Wardle has done a deep dive into why they think this happened, but that's kind

00:55:58   of the setup.

00:55:59   Jon, I presume you particularly have many thoughts on this, so do you want to kind of

00:56:03   fill in some of the blanks here?

00:56:04   By the time you hear this, this will have all been solved for everybody because, you

00:56:09   know, there was about, what, like a day, day and a half between when this was widely publicized

00:56:16   on Twitter and when Apple put out the fix for it.

00:56:21   And not only has Apple put out the fix, like if you have High Sierra and you go to software

00:56:24   update you can get the fix, but they will start, they say starting later today in their

00:56:28   message which means they probably already have done this.

00:56:31   They're going to forcibly push this fix out to everybody running High Sierra.

00:56:34   You won't have to run software update, you won't have to check for updates, you won't

00:56:37   have to click a button, it will just go out on, and you don't need to reboot either, it

00:56:41   will just go out onto your computer.

00:56:44   And that's a mechanism Apple has used a couple times in the past.

00:56:46   I think the only one that I could remember and I think the one that Jason Snell could

00:56:51   remember as well is the NTP bug with the time server thing that they also pushed out.

00:56:57   But I'm assuming it's either the same exact or very similar to the mechanism they have

00:57:02   for pushing out updates to malware, which they also do without you having to do anything

00:57:07   behind the scenes without any other updates.

00:57:10   Like they'll push the malware updates.

00:57:11   And I have no idea when those are happening because who would know?

00:57:13   I guess you could just diff the malware definition file and see when it changes.

00:57:17   But anyway, if you're listening to this now and you're using a Mac with High Sierra and

00:57:22   you're connected to the network, this problem should be solved for you.

00:57:25   Unless of course the fix causes problems, which for some people it has.

00:57:28   Apparently it's possible for the fix itself, which was rolled out in a day, to cause problems

00:57:33   with doing file sharing.

00:57:35   And there's a fix for the fix, which Apple also has a tech note for that you can run

00:57:38   some other command and that will fix their fix.

00:57:41   Which is why usually fixes don't come out 24 hours after a problem was discovered.

00:57:47   The root cause stuff is interesting.

00:57:48   It's difficult.

00:57:50   The thing that Patrick Wardwell wrote up, because he doesn't have the source code to

00:57:54   all parts of the operating system, so he's disassembling it, which is a heroic effort

00:57:58   to disassemble, often without any symbols, to try to figure out what the heck is going

00:58:01   on.

00:58:02   Has he updated that thread?

00:58:04   I don't know.

00:58:05   But anyway, what it looked like when I read this post earlier today was that the programmer

00:58:10   Making the classic mistake of getting confused about what the return value means from a function,

00:58:16   there's multiple schools of thought and multiple cultures on what return values mean in terms of

00:58:22   what indicates success or failure. The sort of Unix system call kind of way is zero indicate

00:58:28   success and anything that's not zero indicate some form of failure, but there are also whole

00:58:32   other SWASP, whole other APIs in other domains where a true value or one or a Boolean or something

00:58:39   Something like that indicates success and a false value or zero or undefined or whatever

00:58:46   means failure.

00:58:47   And those conventions are opposite of each other and it can be very easy when you're

00:58:50   programming to get confused about which is which, especially if you're in some kind of

00:58:55   domain of like your own code that you wrote where you're not sure what convention it's

00:58:58   following or whatever.

00:59:00   And if you get that return value wrong then you may proceed as if something has failed

00:59:03   when it succeeded or vice versa.

00:59:06   you can read the root cause.

00:59:07   It's a series of things that stem from that,

00:59:11   where Macs come by default with the root account disabled,

00:59:16   and this thing accidentally enables it,

00:59:17   and it enables it and sets the password

00:59:19   to whatever you wrote in the text box,

00:59:20   which is an empty string.

00:59:21   And then from that point on,

00:59:22   if you try to log in again with the empty string,

00:59:24   it succeeds the second time,

00:59:25   because the first time it enabled both enabled the account

00:59:27   and set it to empty string.

00:59:29   It's just typical with these type of bugs,

00:59:32   lots of things have to go wrong for it to fall down.

00:59:35   but I'm assuming the fix was fairly straightforward,

00:59:38   but apparently not,

00:59:38   'cause it borked everyone's file sharing, who knows?

00:59:41   Maybe it had to do with applying the fix without restarting,

00:59:43   which is not something that normally happens

00:59:45   with security updates.

00:59:47   Or maybe it does, I don't know.

00:59:49   I don't keep track of like when you get a security update

00:59:50   and a software update, does it require restart all the time?

00:59:53   - Not all the time.

00:59:54   - Yeah, maybe not for all of them.

00:59:55   I guess it depends on what it's patching,

00:59:56   if it can just patch a daemon and then kill it

00:59:58   and it'll auto restart itself.

01:00:01   Anyway, this is a bad one.

01:00:02   This is pretty much as bad as a local exploit can get.

01:00:06   And it was a local exploit that was remotable

01:00:08   because if you have screen sharing enabled,

01:00:12   the local exploit suddenly becomes a remote

01:00:14   because the exploit itself is that it allows you to log in

01:00:17   as root with no password if the root account is disabled.

01:00:21   I also believe that the fix they push out

01:00:24   disables the root account again.

01:00:26   And maybe they had to do that

01:00:28   just because they're afraid everyone enabled it.

01:00:30   By the way, the workaround for this was,

01:00:31   Oh, enable the root account and actually set a legit password?

01:00:35   Which is why I thought I'm totally invulnerable, not the least of which because I'm running

01:00:37   El Capitan.

01:00:38   But anyway, I always enable the root account on all my Macs, and I always set a password

01:00:43   on it, you know, because I use the root account to do UNICCE stuff.

01:00:46   So even though Macs ship with the root account disabled, one of the first things I do is

01:00:49   enable it and set a password and do all that stuff.

01:00:53   So I thought I didn't have to worry about it, but I actually checked my wife's computer,

01:00:56   and for whatever reason, I guess it's because when we got it as a new computer, I never

01:00:59   did any of the UNICCE stuff over on it.

01:01:01   did have the root account disabled.

01:01:02   Anyway, this update, the fix, will re-disable the root account.

01:01:06   So if you don't want the root account disabled, re-enable it, set a strong password on it,

01:01:11   and you'll be back.

01:01:12   So yeah, this is a bad one.

01:01:15   And because this is a fairly terrible error and a one-day, 24-hour turnaround time on

01:01:23   the fix and all sorts of other things, lots of people are attaching various levels of

01:01:27   significance to this.

01:01:28   There's a lot of threads going around revisiting, you know, Apple's quality control.

01:01:33   Is it going downhill?

01:01:35   This never would have happened if Steve was alive, blah, blah, blah.

01:01:37   I guess we can talk about that in a little bit, but the one thing that's brought to mind

01:01:42   immediately and I didn't spend much time Googling this, so maybe I'm misremembering it, but

01:01:46   almost this exact same bug was on the Mac back in the days when Steve was running the

01:01:52   show.

01:01:53   And I believe it was like on the lock screen, like on your laptop or your desktop, where

01:01:57   You get the screen lock and it says enter your password to unlock the screen.

01:02:02   And all you need to do is type a whole bunch of characters in the password field until

01:02:07   it overflows some buffer and causes the screensaver to crash and unlock the screen for you.

01:02:11   And I think you could even hold down the return key and it would still do the same thing.

01:02:16   I forget.

01:02:17   I may be misremembering, maybe people can tell me if I'm misremembering.

01:02:19   But that's the thing with security.

01:02:21   It doesn't matter how silly the mistake is, silly the programming mistake is.

01:02:27   If it's in just the wrong place, your whole security edifice falls down.

01:02:33   So I actually don't think this security error is indicative of any larger problem.

01:02:41   It is just one more, like this specific one, I think it is just one more pebble on the

01:02:47   pile and what we should be doing is counting the pebbles, not saying this one pebble.

01:02:50   Because this one pebble exists, it means therefore this is the world's biggest problem.

01:02:54   The real problem is how many pebbles are there and is the pile getting smaller or bigger

01:02:57   over time.

01:02:58   That's what people need to talk about.

01:02:59   And I suppose this pebble is a little bit bigger than normal, but it was also fixed

01:03:03   much quicker than normal and it's kind of understandable.

01:03:05   I don't know.

01:03:07   Anyway, the question that most piqued my interest that I saw come up about this, I forget if

01:03:12   it was in a Slack or on Twitter or whatever, but I want to ask you two to see what you

01:03:15   think is, someone was asking, "Is this a fireable offense?

01:03:20   And if so, who should be fired?"

01:03:21   - I don't, I mean, if it was put there intentionally, sure.

01:03:26   If it was like, you know, the NSA paid some engineer

01:03:28   to go inject a weakness, sure.

01:03:31   But that was probably not what happened here,

01:03:34   like the nature of this bug, from little we know about it,

01:03:38   from mostly from that disassembly,

01:03:39   it doesn't seem like it's that kind of bug.

01:03:42   Unless it was intentionally done, I would say no,

01:03:47   this is not a fireable offense.

01:03:50   This is software, people make mistakes all the time.

01:03:54   This really honestly could have been

01:03:56   a single line of code mistake.

01:03:59   And if that's all it was,

01:04:02   then it's just part of doing the job.

01:04:04   And for the record, Jon, I'm with you.

01:04:06   People look at me to amplify a lot of Apple rage these days

01:04:12   because I do that sometimes,

01:04:13   but I don't think this is alone in isolation.

01:04:18   I'm not freaked out about this.

01:04:19   yeah, it's a bad security bug, it got fixed,

01:04:22   that's what's supposed to happen.

01:04:24   Any OS, even iOS, where Apple puts all their resources,

01:04:28   you know, any OS has occasional security bugs

01:04:31   of this magnitude, and if it's being properly cared for,

01:04:35   they get fixed, simple as that.

01:04:38   That's the nature of very, very complex modern software.

01:04:43   You're gonna have problems.

01:04:44   As long as they get fixed, everything's working

01:04:47   as it always does.

01:04:49   So this particular bug, I don't think is a sign

01:04:52   of anything big.

01:04:53   I think it was handled as well as it could have been handled

01:04:55   although it is a little worrying how long ago

01:04:57   people were talking about it on the forums

01:04:59   and nobody seemed to notice.

01:05:00   But security bugs like that,

01:05:03   who knows if the right people saw that either.

01:05:07   People report random bugs all the time

01:05:10   and random odd behavior on forums all the time

01:05:13   but people also report so much garbage on forums

01:05:15   that nobody can keep up with everything that's posted.

01:05:17   And who knows, if somebody's describing,

01:05:20   like on the forums, if you read the posts

01:05:22   that were allegedly describing this problem,

01:05:23   if you're some Apple employee who's just skimming

01:05:26   through these posts, you don't know what the conditions

01:05:28   were on that person's machine.

01:05:30   Maybe something weird was going on with their software

01:05:32   and some other way.

01:05:33   Maybe it wasn't your bug necessarily.

01:05:34   So it's hard to know when you're skimming

01:05:36   through forum posts what people are actually talking about.

01:05:40   And if this is a real issue that you need to worry about,

01:05:42   if it's your bug, or if it's just some weird thing

01:05:44   that they did or that they're recalling badly

01:05:47   or describing badly, you know, so like,

01:05:50   I don't see anything about this bug

01:05:52   that is cause for massive concern

01:05:54   on any kind of real scale.

01:05:56   I see lots of other ways for concern for Apple,

01:05:58   but this is not one of those things.

01:06:00   And to go back to the actual question you asked,

01:06:02   once again, to summarize, no, this would not be,

01:06:04   as long as this was done unintentionally,

01:06:05   this is not a fireable offense,

01:06:06   this is just developing software.

01:06:09   - Yeah, yeah, I agree, I don't think this is fireable

01:06:11   unless it was a deliberate backdoor,

01:06:12   and I don't think that it was.

01:06:16   And I've seen some people that are really up in arms

01:06:20   about the fact that on Apple's own dev forums,

01:06:23   this was reported and nobody noticed.

01:06:25   I was cracking wise about it earlier,

01:06:28   but the reality of the situation is, like, look at radar.

01:06:31   So as much as I also crack wise and lament radar,

01:06:34   that is a never-ending just tidal wave of new information

01:06:41   that Apple as a company needs to sort through.

01:06:45   And if you look at radar, which has a fairly high, in my opinion, cost of entry in terms

01:06:52   of like, who's really going to file a radar?

01:06:54   Not any normal schmo.

01:06:56   It's going to be a super nerd developer who actually is silly enough to spend the time

01:07:00   doing it.

01:07:01   So think about this insert, just insurmountable wave of information coming off radar, which

01:07:07   is Apple's internal bug, well, internal slash external bug reporting tool, and then amplify

01:07:12   that by several orders of magnitude, and that's a forum. So there is no way that anyone, I can't

01:07:20   imagine anyone's cruising the forums looking for reports of security vulnerabilities. That's just

01:07:24   not a thing. So as much as I joke about how it was reported on Apple's own forums and they should

01:07:30   have noticed, no, they shouldn't have. And they've turned around a fix as quickly as possible. I wish

01:07:35   they QA'd the fix a little better, because up until a few minutes ago when one of you mentioned

01:07:39   I didn't even realize the fix needed a fix, but you know, they're trying to do right by everyone

01:07:44   and trying to get this right as quickly as possible. And I think to my eyes, and maybe

01:07:52   it's easy for me to say this because I'm hugely biased as a developer, but I feel like, yes,

01:07:56   the root cause of this was a developer making an oops, but this to me is more, I'm more alarmed by

01:08:02   the QA process than I am the developer that made the oops, because this seems like the

01:08:09   sort of thing that I feel like it should have been caught in quality assurance, and clearly

01:08:15   it wasn't. And that's the thing that scares me a little bit. But somewhere, I guess they

01:08:21   made a statement to several outlets, including iMore, and I don't have it in front of me,

01:08:25   but they basically said that they're going to provide a write-up of what happened. Is

01:08:29   Is that right?

01:08:30   Do you know what I'm talking about?

01:08:32   They said they were gonna do basically a post-mortem

01:08:33   and talk about it, if I'm not mistaken.

01:08:36   - I have the Apple statement in the notes,

01:08:37   but it doesn't say anything about that.

01:08:39   - We are auditing our development process

01:08:41   to help prevent this from happening ever again.

01:08:43   I could've sworn they said

01:08:44   they were gonna talk about it publicly, but I guess not.

01:08:46   - I think they just did.

01:08:47   (laughs)

01:08:48   - Yeah, fair enough.

01:08:49   - That's probably the extent

01:08:50   that we were going to hear about it.

01:08:51   But honestly, again, unless it was intentional sabotage,

01:08:56   I don't think the cause for this

01:08:58   is going to be very interesting.

01:09:00   It's just, yeah, somebody messed up.

01:09:01   It could, like, you know, like the go-to fail bug

01:09:04   from a couple years back, that was most likely

01:09:07   a random copy and paste, or like, you know, a bad merge.

01:09:10   Like, it's possible that somebody, you know,

01:09:13   maliciously put that there to, you know,

01:09:15   for NSA purposes, to make it look like an accidental bug.

01:09:19   That's possible, but that's a lot less likely

01:09:22   than just somebody messed up.

01:09:24   Because it's software, people mess up all the time.

01:09:27   That's why you have to have systems in place

01:09:29   to be able to update things and patch things.

01:09:32   Because you know it's gonna happen.

01:09:33   And no matter how many tests Casey writes for you,

01:09:36   it's still gonna be, you're still gonna have bugs.

01:09:39   (laughing)

01:09:41   - Well done.

01:09:43   - Well done.

01:09:44   - So I asked about the firing thing

01:09:46   just because it was a sentiment that I saw

01:09:49   for a lot of people discussing.

01:09:50   And it seemed to me that a lot of the discussion

01:09:53   centered around people arguing about who should be fired.

01:09:56   "Oh, the programmer who made the mistake should be fired."

01:09:58   And "No, the quality assurance should be fired."

01:09:59   "No, actually neither one of those people should be fired.

01:10:01   It should be their manager."

01:10:02   "No, it should be Tim Cook."

01:10:03   Like, you know, who is ultimately responsible and how do we make people accountable?

01:10:08   And it was, you know, kind of a test/strick question for you two, but you both got what

01:10:12   I think is the right answer.

01:10:14   But you both write software, so I think that's why.

01:10:16   But like, when people are angry about something, like, you don't have to be particularly technically

01:10:22   savvy or into the details of computers or a program or anything to understand how bad

01:10:26   this bug is, you know, because it's just, it seems like one of those bugs that if we

01:10:29   saw it in a movie, we'd be like, that's ridiculous.

01:10:32   That's so fake.

01:10:33   Couldn't they come up with a better looking bug?

01:10:36   It's just comically, you know, just like, just hit return a second time and now you're

01:10:40   in.

01:10:41   It's almost as bad as when Windows 98 would have a login password up on screen, you could

01:10:45   just hit cancel and just proceed with the login.

01:10:48   Yeah, there's something that showed the old video of the Windows 95 one where you could

01:10:51   hit the question mark to get the help screen and eventually navigate your way to like a,

01:10:55   to the open save dialog box and just open my computer

01:10:57   with like a right click.

01:10:58   (laughing)

01:11:00   There's lots of things like,

01:11:00   at least that one was a little bit complicated,

01:11:02   but yeah, this one is ridiculous.

01:11:03   But for all situations, again,

01:11:05   excluding intentional sabotage,

01:11:07   which is I think the only reason that anybody anywhere

01:11:10   in Apple should be fired for this is intentional sabotage.

01:11:14   - Or gross negligence.

01:11:16   - I think intentional, basically what I want to see

01:11:18   in this specific bug of like what it looks like

01:11:20   from the disassembly of the code,

01:11:21   it's not gross negligence.

01:11:22   It's a common, looks like a common mistake, easy to get.

01:11:27   Even the QA people shouldn't be fired.

01:11:29   Craig Federighi shouldn't be fired.

01:11:31   No one should be fired for this.

01:11:32   And the reason no one should be fired for this

01:11:33   is like, it's not just about software.

01:11:34   I mean, it's something you experience in software

01:11:36   just because software is a realm

01:11:38   where even the very best practitioners

01:11:40   make mistakes all the time.

01:11:41   That is the nature of the work, right?

01:11:43   Which is often the source of ridicule,

01:11:44   but if you're an actual programmer, you understand why.

01:11:46   But put programming aside, in any sort of group effort,

01:11:51   Any environment where someone would be fired for an honest mistake like this, regardless

01:11:55   of the impact, is not an environment that—it's not a safe environment for people to grow

01:12:01   and improve their skills.

01:12:04   It is a hostile organization.

01:12:06   You should never want to work for some place that would fire you because you made an honest

01:12:10   mistake in a book.

01:12:11   That's not your fault, and it's not like the quality assurance people's fault.

01:12:15   Now if you make a series of these errors, eventually, yes, executives should be fired

01:12:19   or changed or whatever, but an individual contributor in any part of the organization

01:12:24   who makes an honest mistake shouldn't be fired for that honest mistake just because that

01:12:28   one happened to be in just the wrong place. That's not an environment that makes people

01:12:32   feel safe to learn and grow. And it's the organization's job to make sure people in

01:12:37   roles that are suited to their skills and that they're supported and that they have

01:12:42   the correct training and knowledge to get up to the next level, do the next thing. That's

01:12:46   That's the organization problem, that's not the individual's problem.

01:12:48   So in any group of people, if you're in an environment where you're like, "We're going

01:12:51   to be the best because if anybody makes any mistake, they're going to immediately be fired,"

01:12:54   your team, you will fire everyone on your team and you will only have the worst, meanest

01:12:58   employees who are only good at carefully not making mistakes and you will have crap people.

01:13:02   So I don't think it entered anyone's mind at Apple that someone was going to get fired

01:13:07   over this, even in the worst moments of anger, again, unless it was sabotage and unless it

01:13:12   was like, "This is the fifth one of these."

01:13:15   And even then, like if it's the fifth one, like you should have rotated the person out

01:13:17   of that position after the first or second one instead of leaving them there.

01:13:21   So then maybe some manager should get fired.

01:13:23   But this is not a long series of these terrible security errors or anything like that.

01:13:31   So no, I don't think anyone should be fired for this.

01:13:33   And yeah, I skipped over the developer forum thing.

01:13:38   That's kind of a fun one because Apple's developer forums, if you don't hang out there, you might

01:13:44   most likely hit the developer forums when you do a Google search for something and you

01:13:48   find all the other poor souls posting to the developer forums for the exact same problem

01:13:52   that you have.

01:13:54   But my understanding of the developer forums, which may be outdated but I think it's still

01:13:57   current, is that it's a place for Apple's customers to go and talk to each other about

01:14:03   their stuff.

01:14:04   It's not the genius bar on the web.

01:14:06   Like it's not a place where you go to ask Apple for help, although Apple people are

01:14:08   sometimes there and may sometimes be helpful.

01:14:11   It's not like a support channel for you to get your thing fixed by Apple.

01:14:15   It's for Apple's customers to talk to each other.

01:14:18   So it's not like, someone from Apple, it's not their job to read every single post there.

01:14:25   And what it also means is that, my impression is a lot of the people who are posting there

01:14:29   are people who are not that into computers as a hobby.

01:14:33   They just want their damn computer to work.

01:14:35   And they end up going to Google and trying to say, "I can't get my computer to work.

01:14:37   Where is someplace I can talk about this?"

01:14:39   And they end up landing at the Apple developer forums.

01:14:41   You can go there from the Apple website, find your way there, or whatever.

01:14:45   It's a venue for people of all kinds to talk about their computers.

01:14:49   It is not a super nerd hangout, right?

01:14:51   Which means that you get a lot of people with very basic problems and other people trying

01:14:55   to help them who may not know all the intricate details.

01:14:58   And I have to admit, if I had read that thread and saw someone suggesting, "Here's what you

01:15:03   can do to fix it."

01:15:04   You know, someone was locked out of their computer.

01:15:05   "I'm locked myself out of my computer.

01:15:08   How do I get in and fix it?"

01:15:09   And like, you'd see a whole bunch of people suggesting things and like one of them would

01:15:11   be like the correct solution of like, if you really have forgotten your password, you can

01:15:14   reset it in single user mode and blah, blah, blah.

01:15:16   But there'll be a bunch of other people suggesting other things.

01:15:19   And if I had read that thing of like, Oh, just go here, this thing at the lock icon,

01:15:23   type root and hit return.

01:15:24   You get written.

01:15:25   I would have thought that's not going to work.

01:15:27   Like it may be it worked for you because you have some weird, but like it just, it's obviously

01:15:30   someone who's confused and they're trying to be helpful, but I would honestly, I wouldn't

01:15:33   take it seriously because there's so much crap.

01:15:35   many people other like you know they're not they're just being nice people like here's

01:15:39   something try this have you tried that this worked for me once right and I if I had read

01:15:44   that I would never in a million years have thought that's actually legit like that will

01:15:48   actually work I wouldn't even have tried it I wouldn't even thought about trying it and

01:15:52   I bet if an Apple employee read it they'd be like haha yeah if only that worked like

01:15:56   you just have written it returned with no password yeah nice try turns out in this one

01:16:00   case that actually did work and that's terrifying slightly. And the real scary thing is the

01:16:06   person who wrote that up, Gruber just posted a thing about it because the thread continued

01:16:10   from there saying, "Where did you hear about this?" He's like, "Oh, I heard it in some

01:16:13   other forum." So who knows how long this exploit has been out there in whatever dark corners

01:16:17   of the internet that people have known that you could do this in High Sierra. And it's

01:16:23   only because certainly weeks later, but possibly even longer, who knows, maybe this has been

01:16:27   there since the original release of High Sierra. Maybe it's been there since the betas and

01:16:30   people have known about it. Only because it got Twitter publicity like a day or two ago

01:16:35   did Apple rush to fix it. And, you know, I don't really blame Apple for that because

01:16:40   like I said, if I had read this in the forums, I wouldn't have believed either. It just

01:16:43   sounds ridiculous.

01:16:45   Yeah. And to add to your discrediting of needing to take forum seriously, whenever I search

01:16:55   for a problem with my Apple products or software. I almost always come across a forum link or

01:17:02   two to Apple support forums. And I don't think I can come up with any better example

01:17:08   of a worse ratio of usefulness to times I see the page that is non-zero. Like, it is

01:17:18   is the results are usually so useless and terrible

01:17:22   because it is just random, semi-lost, under-informed people

01:17:27   trying to help each other without any help from Apple.

01:17:31   I think Yahoo Answers has a higher hit rate for me

01:17:34   than Apple support forums.

01:17:35   - Oh, that's not fair.

01:17:37   It's not as bad as Yahoo Answers.

01:17:38   - No, it really is. - I've come up with

01:17:39   Apple support forum things,

01:17:40   and here's what I get from Apple support forums.

01:17:42   One, I find out if my problem is common

01:17:45   because if there are a million repeated threads

01:17:47   people having the same exact problem, I am reassured in some way, right? They're like,

01:17:51   "Okay, now I know. If I don't find any matches in the Apple support forums, I'm like, "Oh,

01:17:55   I probably have bad hardware," or something like that, right? But if a million people

01:17:58   say that they have this problem, that tells me something. And two, I get to see the weeks

01:18:03   or months of people suggesting basically everything under the sun. Have you tried resetting your

01:18:07   PRAM? Have you tried resetting your desktop? Have you tried hopping on one foot, right?

01:18:11   Every solution that has ever worked for any problem gets suggested for all problems.

01:18:16   right. And people reply, "I tried that and it didn't help me. I tried that and it didn't

01:18:19   help me." And very often there is one that says, "I did that and it finally worked!"

01:18:24   And at least that gives me, it lets me eliminate stuff that I know won't work, because I see

01:18:27   everyone keep trying this and they're not working. And then if something does work for

01:18:31   one person, sometimes I can back-solve to figure out what really solved their problem,

01:18:35   because obviously that thing didn't, because someone would be like, "Well, I did that exact

01:18:37   same thing and I didn't solve it." Like, it is super noisy. But here's the thing that

01:18:41   has over yahoo answers fewer trolls right and much more specifically relevant to my needs

01:18:50   so i think there is the signal to noise is not great but there is value to be had there

01:18:56   now granted if you find yourself in the apple support forums you are probably desperate like

01:19:01   you're probably that's kind of the bottom of the barrel but i thank all those people who spend all

01:19:06   that time talking back to it and forth to each other to try to solve problems because every once

01:19:09   in a while, just looking at the shape that they've traced around this problem of all

01:19:14   the things they've tried, I can find my way to a solution that actually works for me.

01:19:19   So user Raxelbrof in the chat said, "Apple support forums. The problem you are experiencing

01:19:24   doesn't exist/that's the way it's supposed to work/here's a copy-pasted solution that

01:19:29   indicates I didn't read your problem." That is a fantastic summary.

01:19:34   That is true. And Apple people do occasionally post there.

01:19:38   One more thing before we leave this topic about what Apple could do to fix this.

01:19:43   In the grand scheme of things, any solution that takes the form "program better" or "let's

01:19:52   be smarter" or "let's write fewer bugs" is not a solution.

01:19:56   Because if you do a postmortem in any sort of bug or problem, it's like, in the future

01:20:02   we should be better programmers, then we won't make mistakes like this.

01:20:05   That's not a solution.

01:20:07   Much to Marko's chagrin, the solution to all these things involves process and testing

01:20:11   and quality assurance and systems.

01:20:13   And you can't have too many of those because then you paralyze your entire organization

01:20:17   with a spiderweb of bureaucracy, but you've got to have a certain amount.

01:20:20   And bugs like this where there's, not that I'm saying this is a GUI bug, but there is

01:20:26   a, the way this is exploited is through GUI, even if the problem was actually in a library

01:20:31   somewhere, very often go through, you know, don't get tested well because the underlying

01:20:37   libraries are tested to show they do everything they want, but this glue code that calls into

01:20:40   the libraries and checks the return value. That code path may only be exercised by someone

01:20:45   using the GUI, and writing good tests that automate the use of the GUI, there are tons

01:20:50   of tools that do it, but it is the hardest kind of testing to do. And I'm sure Apple

01:20:54   does a ton of it. Like, they have to. They have to do a ton of it. But if there's going

01:20:57   to be one area of testing that is very difficult to be comprehensive in and to keep up to date

01:21:02   And to not even have a good concept of like coverage for,

01:21:06   it's GUI testing.

01:21:08   And I'm not saying they don't have to do it,

01:21:12   but like what would have fixed this problem

01:21:15   if they had an automated fuzz testing on this exact sort

01:21:19   of flow of like you click the lock icon

01:21:21   in any system preference and you try to get in.

01:21:24   If they had something that was fuzz testing that flow,

01:21:26   one of the things in the fuzz test

01:21:27   would have been root empty password.

01:21:28   And hopefully the fuzz test would have done

01:21:30   that multiple times or something like that,

01:21:31   or any other sort of like triggers on the code path

01:21:33   to make sure you're along the right lines

01:21:35   and to do preconditions and post-condition,

01:21:37   root account is disabled,

01:21:38   fuzz test login, root account is still disabled.

01:21:41   Like there's so many tests you can see

01:21:43   that would have caught this.

01:21:44   And again, if the post-mortem says,

01:21:45   I know exactly the tests we can write right now,

01:21:46   they'll prevent this exact bug from ever happening again.

01:21:49   That doesn't solve the problem either.

01:21:50   You gotta go much deeper than that and to say,

01:21:52   how do we prevent problems of this kind from happening?

01:21:55   I would imagine that the,

01:21:57   because the functional surface area

01:21:59   of the Mac operating system is so incredibly vast.

01:22:02   If you were to put a percentage number

01:22:03   on how many code paths are executed

01:22:07   as part of the surely massive amount of automated testing

01:22:11   that Apple does in the Mac operating system,

01:22:13   the percentage would be terrifyingly small,

01:22:15   especially when compared to the incredible coverage numbers

01:22:17   that people who get to write like faceless libraries do.

01:22:20   Like what does the coverage estimate look like

01:22:22   on a small, tight, well-maintained,

01:22:25   really important library,

01:22:26   especially involving the kernel or security?

01:22:29   You can test that thing to death.

01:22:30   Like you can just put it in a little black box

01:22:33   and torture it for like the file system.

01:22:35   The amount of testing they did on APFS,

01:22:37   I'm sure was astronomical,

01:22:39   where you could just have that thing grinding hour and hour,

01:22:42   day after day, random IOs,

01:22:44   just and then like stop it every 300 hours

01:22:47   to see if the file system is hosed in any way

01:22:49   and like put auditing and tracing

01:22:51   in every single step of the process

01:22:52   and just run that for months and months and years and years.

01:22:55   That's how you update a billion phones

01:22:56   without anybody noticing

01:22:57   you change their file system, right?

01:23:00   Doing that same kind of testing for the entirety of an operating system, especially exercising

01:23:05   the GUI, the GUI that changes a lot, is really, really hard.

01:23:09   And I think that's, you know, what's going to – the actual solution to this, if you

01:23:14   keep like, not 5y-ing it, but 17y-ing it, is more money.

01:23:19   More time and more money into macOS.

01:23:21   Because any solution you come up with about like, let's change our procedures in some

01:23:24   subtle way, it's not as if they're not doing the testing because they're lazy or don't

01:23:28   feel like it.

01:23:30   All these things tape people, and people cost money, and it's time.

01:23:34   And so I hope that the outcome of this is to dedicate more resources towards automated

01:23:42   and manual testing of the Mac operating system, because that's the only way you're going to

01:23:46   catch more bugs.

01:23:47   You're not going to write fewer bugs by everyone suddenly becoming a better programmer.

01:23:53   You just have to catch more bugs, and I hope that's a solution here.

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01:25:50   I think also the general bugginess in many ways

01:25:55   of High Sierra, which was ostensibly a bug fixing release, or a refinement release of

01:26:00   the OS, I think more clearly than ever shows that the annual release cycle that Apple has

01:26:09   pushed for all their platforms for the last few years, that this is as inappropriate as

01:26:15   ever for Mac OS. That the annual release cycle makes tons of sense for iOS where it's in

01:26:21   hyper-competitive space and it's moving quickly

01:26:23   and it's still a relatively younger,

01:26:25   although not by much now, operating system.

01:26:28   But on Mac OS, it seems like the faster they go on Mac OS,

01:26:33   the worse the quality problems get.

01:26:36   And no one on the Mac is clamoring

01:26:38   for this to be updated every year.

01:26:40   Like, no one.

01:26:41   On the Mac, if anything, people are like,

01:26:43   "Please stop touching this because you keep breaking it."

01:26:47   So I really, I hope that at some,

01:26:50   You know, I know what I ask for with the Mac

01:26:53   is often unrealistic and unlikely to happen

01:26:56   with modern day Apple.

01:26:59   But I really think the annual release cycle,

01:27:01   if it even makes sense for iOS, which it probably does,

01:27:04   it definitely does not make sense for Mac OS.

01:27:06   And also, it's making Mac OS worse.

01:27:09   The Mac is so deprioritized in the company now,

01:27:13   and I'm not even gonna argue right now

01:27:17   whether that should or shouldn't be the case.

01:27:18   if not for this episode.

01:27:20   But it is so deprioritized and seemingly de-resourced

01:27:24   in the company these days that by having it on

01:27:28   a very aggressive release cycle to keep up, I guess,

01:27:32   with marketing features for everything else they're doing,

01:27:34   you're dooming it to being more buggy over time.

01:27:37   You're dooming it to having rush jobs done.

01:27:40   Even this ostensibly bug fix release of High Sierra,

01:27:44   they did major changes.

01:27:45   Like the new Windows Server is a huge thing.

01:27:48   I think my LCD font rendering disabling checkbox

01:27:51   is still broken, even in 10 dot whatever dot one.

01:27:54   I am hoping they fix it in dot two,

01:27:56   but I'm not holding my breath on that one.

01:27:58   Like, there's so much about High Sierra that has been broken,

01:28:02   and Sierra honestly wasn't that much better before that.

01:28:06   It wasn't that long before that that we had Discovery Day.

01:28:08   What was that, was that LCAP or whatever came after that?

01:28:11   It was somebody, yeah, I don't know.

01:28:12   I lost track of all these mountains.

01:28:13   But you can't have a very aggressive

01:28:16   software release schedule,

01:28:18   and also have it be like a low priority

01:28:20   that you're gonna not give it a whole lot of staff and time

01:28:23   to develop things well on it.

01:28:25   The amount of resources that Apple is devoting to Mac OS

01:28:30   can't keep up with a one-year release cycle

01:28:32   and maintain quality.

01:28:33   They have to either dramatically increase

01:28:35   the priority of Mac OS and the company,

01:28:37   which I think is very unlikely,

01:28:38   or slow it down and only do it every two years

01:28:42   like they used to.

01:28:43   Because what they are doing right now

01:28:45   resulting in more bad software.

01:28:49   I was just thinking that if they actually did go to a two-year schedule, they'd be like,

01:28:51   "They don't even care enough about the Mac to update it every year," which is, you know,

01:28:55   it's double-edged sword and I kind of understand why they do yearly one.

01:28:57   I continue to believe that they can successfully do yearly releases if they scope them right

01:29:02   and, you know, and like I said, I feel like they do have to put more resources towards

01:29:06   it.

01:29:08   But if they went to two years, I'd be fine.

01:29:10   And in the past, they weren't at two years.

01:29:12   They were accidentally at 18 months in this bumpy schedule.

01:29:15   Whenever they got around to it, they kind of spread out.

01:29:17   I did a graph in one of my old reviews of the time between releases, but this year cadence

01:29:22   has been their decision.

01:29:25   They're going to meet the yearly schedule and their tool for meeting the yearly schedule

01:29:28   to adjust scope, and I think they have been adjusting scope, pushing things out of releases,

01:29:32   but I think there's always the temptation to put things in releases that are just barely

01:29:37   like, "Do you think it's ready to be in the release, or do we have to boot it out?"

01:29:41   You have to make that decision months ahead of time, and you have to kind of make a call,

01:29:44   and human nature is to say, "I think the team can make it if they work really hard, and

01:29:49   I think it's going to be in, so let's leave the new Windows Server in."

01:29:53   It only crashes on a few GPUs, and I'm sure they'll have that worked out by the time it

01:29:56   releases.

01:29:57   And it turns out they don't have it worked out by the time it releases, and it's like,

01:30:00   "Maybe we should have kicked that out."

01:30:02   But on the other hand, you can say, "Look, if you keep kicking it out like this, it'll

01:30:06   never be so ready to go that you feel like you have to do it, and if you never updated

01:30:10   you're going to be in an HFS+ situation.

01:30:11   So at some point, you have to actually ship.

01:30:13   And the only way to find all the real bugs

01:30:15   is to put it out into the real world.

01:30:16   And that's the nature of software and management.

01:30:19   That's the job Apple has before it.

01:30:21   But I do think that High Sierra does not

01:30:24   live up to its billing as a Snow Leopard type release,

01:30:29   even though Snow Leopard had more bugs

01:30:31   than people think it did.

01:30:32   Their memories are fuzzy on that.

01:30:33   But it doesn't live up to the memories

01:30:35   of Snow Leopard type release,

01:30:36   where it is a refinement of Sierra

01:30:39   that just makes everything better and faster.

01:30:42   It was a refinement of Sierra

01:30:43   and it did make things better and faster,

01:30:45   but the small number of things they changed,

01:30:48   like they had some bugs of their own

01:30:52   and lots of longstanding bugs didn't get fixed.

01:30:54   It's just tech debt, that's what it boils down to.

01:30:55   Like this is the thing a lot of people are pointing out

01:30:57   in all their complaints about bugs.

01:30:58   And that's why I pointed the pile of pebbles

01:31:00   and the pile of pebbles getting bigger.

01:31:02   You have to pay down your tech debt.

01:31:04   You have to address it and say,

01:31:07   that bug that Marco's been having for two releases about his Bluetooth randomly disconnecting.

01:31:12   I know it's a pain in the ass to figure it out and it's unreproducible and he's not filing bug

01:31:17   reports, but you just got to figure that out because if you don't, it will just linger there

01:31:20   forever. And it will linger there forever alongside the new bug that you added as part of whatever new

01:31:25   feature you added and the pile of pebbles gets bigger. You got to at least keep the pile of

01:31:29   pebbles at a manageable size. We're not saying you have to drive it down to zero, it's software,

01:31:34   You're never going to drive down to zero.

01:31:35   But if you allow them to accumulate and that pile gets bigger every release, people become

01:31:39   disillusioned.

01:31:40   Because there's always new bugs and your old ones never get fixed and it's like, "Why are

01:31:43   you even releasing new operating systems?"

01:31:45   That's when people say, "Let's go to every two years," or whatever.

01:31:47   So I think it is possible to do an every year release, but if it is easier for Apple to

01:31:53   go to every two year release, then they should do that.

01:31:57   The way I look at it is, imagine on a smaller scale, imagine me as a single developer.

01:32:03   of all year, I didn't really touch Overcast.

01:32:06   I was doing other things, I was too busy

01:32:08   to work on Overcast.

01:32:09   And every summer, I gave myself one week

01:32:12   to make a new big point version of it.

01:32:15   (laughs)

01:32:16   And then I could release it, fix bugs for two days,

01:32:19   and then I wouldn't be able to work on it anymore

01:32:20   until the next summer.

01:32:22   Of course the quality would go down.

01:32:23   Of course I'd have to rush to get things in there,

01:32:26   and everything I did would be half-baked,

01:32:28   so I wouldn't have time to fully bake it.

01:32:30   I wouldn't have enough time afterwards to fix bugs.

01:32:32   bugs would just sit around forever until the next year

01:32:35   when I couldn't fix the old bugs,

01:32:37   I'd have to make new features for the new marketing push.

01:32:40   That's, I think, a pretty good scale model

01:32:43   of how OS X feels, or excuse me, Mac OS,

01:32:46   how Mac OS feels.

01:32:47   It feels like most people are not able to,

01:32:52   or allowed to, or allocated to work on it most of the time,

01:32:55   and what time they get on it seems to be limited

01:32:58   to marketing features and not fixing bugs.

01:33:02   And I think your Pebble pile analogy is great

01:33:06   and I think it's pretty clear that we're going

01:33:09   in the direction of accumulating more of those

01:33:11   Pebbles over time, not fewer.

01:33:12   Like the pile is just getting bigger over time

01:33:14   and that technical debt is not being paid off

01:33:17   at a fast enough rate.

01:33:19   The saddest part about this is that nobody

01:33:22   is really asking for this.

01:33:23   Like Mac users don't need a new OS every year.

01:33:28   We really don't.

01:33:29   Like I'm still on Sierra because High Sierra's so buggy

01:33:32   I'm a little scared to switch to it.

01:33:34   I only have it on the laptop, but not my main computer.

01:33:37   Part of the reason is like, why?

01:33:39   Why should I switch to it?

01:33:40   The sales pitch for High Sierra seems to get worse every day.

01:33:43   Why should I upgrade exactly?

01:33:45   Why is Apple forcing this upgrade down my throat

01:33:47   with these notifications that pre-download it

01:33:48   to my system and everything?

01:33:49   Like Apple's pushing really, really hard

01:33:52   to force people to update to High Sierra

01:33:55   when it's still in a really buggy state,

01:33:56   which that alone shows pretty bad judgment on Apple's part,

01:33:59   what's in it for me as a user?

01:34:02   Not much.

01:34:03   The only thing I gain from it is,

01:34:06   you know, certain things work better

01:34:07   when all your stuff is on the new OS.

01:34:09   Things like certain handoff features

01:34:11   or iCloud syncing features, AirDrop,

01:34:13   you know, calendar sync doesn't actually work anymore for me,

01:34:16   thanks a lot.

01:34:17   For the most part, the main reason,

01:34:19   the main motivating reason I have to upgrade

01:34:20   to High Sierra right now is it's the newest OS.

01:34:24   And my other stuff is starting to slowly break

01:34:26   because my computer is not on the newest OS.

01:34:28   That's it.

01:34:29   There's nothing about High Sierra that I actually want,

01:34:32   because what it comes with is all these bugs

01:34:34   and all these half-baked incomplete features,

01:34:37   like my loss of my LCD font smoothing thing,

01:34:39   and that might get fixed in the next version,

01:34:41   but it might not.

01:34:42   As a Mac user, all this stuff there changing radically,

01:34:46   and all these costs we are paying and all these big bugs

01:34:50   and new subsystems being rewritten in ways

01:34:53   that are almost as good as the old ones but broken,

01:34:55   Like, I didn't ask for that.

01:34:58   I do want Mac OS to move forward,

01:35:00   and I want, I really hope that the Mac OS

01:35:03   still has a roadmap ahead of it.

01:35:07   But I don't want it to be done sloppily,

01:35:09   badly, and rushed out.

01:35:11   I'd rather it be done slowly and right,

01:35:14   and to have fewer awesome things in each release,

01:35:17   if that's even possible,

01:35:19   than to have it be done half-assed and rushed,

01:35:22   and then have really buggy software come out every year

01:35:24   and have my system break for four months

01:35:27   every year in the fall.

01:35:28   - I think the most attractive aspect of the two year plan

01:35:32   is the part that people probably don't think about as much.

01:35:35   But what that would mean is,

01:35:37   imagine like High Sierra didn't come out

01:35:39   and we were still on Sierra, right?

01:35:40   What that would mean is that Sierra point releases

01:35:43   would continue for another year.

01:35:45   It would be, you know, 10, 12, six, 10, 12, seven,

01:35:48   10, 12, eight, 10, 12, nine,

01:35:50   and all those point releases, all those patch level releases

01:35:53   You know they're not replacing the Windows Server in one of those, right?

01:35:57   They're probably not changing the file system, but who the hell knows they did it on 10.2

01:36:01   or whatever on iOS, right?

01:36:03   But the nature of those point releases tends to prevent Apple from doing any big changes.

01:36:07   So what is everybody doing in those releases?

01:36:09   You know what they're doing in all those point releases?

01:36:12   As that number gets bigger and bigger and even goes into double digits as it has in

01:36:15   the past, they're fixing little bugs.

01:36:17   That's all they're doing.

01:36:18   Like, that's all they have.

01:36:19   Like, there's usually security fixes and bug fixes.

01:36:22   And the bigger that number gets, the sort of, we all assume, the more stable and more

01:36:27   mature that operating system gets.

01:36:29   That kind of also makes the big release harder.

01:36:31   Like when, I think it was like Tiger or something, it was like 10.4.11 or something.

01:36:35   When you get, yeah, someone already said that in the chat room.

01:36:39   When you get up that high, the challenge for the 10.5.0 release, for the next major version

01:36:44   release, for the next like newly named cat or California place release, is so much higher.

01:36:50   It's like we have enjoyed this period of peace and stability

01:36:53   like we've we're up into we're up into the double digits on the last number in our versions and

01:36:59   Everything is good and like every little like that team that is doing those point releases

01:37:03   You know, I don't even know it's a separate team or whatever

01:37:05   But those people like they're running out of bugs to fix like they're knocking things down

01:37:08   They're like, you know, oh you having some obscure problem with your Bluetooth

01:37:11   The entire team is gonna spend the next two months just looking at that problem because we have no other bugs to fix, right?

01:37:16   We're not on the glory team doing the next version

01:37:19   And you hope those are synchronized with what's happening in the future or ice lease, but inevitably when the point zero comes out

01:37:24   It's always less stable than the other one because that's the one that has the big substance replaced

01:37:28   And I'm all for big substance subsystem replacements

01:37:31   I love it, which is why I just want them to add more money and time and developers and still do it that way but

01:37:36   If we did go to the two-year schedule

01:37:39   I think we would have at least one year of peace and prosperity

01:37:42   Where you know the chicken in every pot and people's bugs are getting fixed and just you know

01:37:47   the point releases come out and we just blindly install them, knowing that there's just one

01:37:51   more bug fixed and one more performance improvement and everything gets great.

01:37:55   And so I could do with a run of double digit at the end of the version numbers to see what

01:38:03   that's like again, because those are good times.

01:38:05   I don't disagree about the two-year schedule thing, but I don't understand why two years

01:38:13   or a lengthening of major releases has to be the answer. Like, I feel like just different choices,

01:38:21   even on the same cadence, would be okay. And I don't think it's fair for us to conjecture

01:38:26   about what is or is not important to Apple internally. But certainly, from the perspective

01:38:31   of an outsider like me, it seems like Apple doesn't value bug-free software either the same

01:38:41   way that they did or as much as any of us would like them to. And I feel like this is

01:38:48   starting to gain a little traction. I feel like I'm noticing friends and family rolling their eyes

01:38:55   and saying, "Oh, well, that's Apple." And this is more than just, "Oh, screw you, autocorrect."

01:38:59   And this is more than just hating on Siri, which I'm becoming more and more interested in as time

01:39:04   goes on because I really feel like Siri is a dumpster fire. And I don't even have an Alexa

01:39:09   that it compared to. Just using Siri has been more and more frustrating over time. But anyway,

01:39:14   I feel like my family is starting to get frustrated with things that are problems,

01:39:22   that are software problems that are coming out of Apple. And I feel like, from an outsider's

01:39:30   perspective, it appears as though the institutional value is way heavier on New Shiny. And I think you

01:39:37   guys are both saying this, is way heavier on new shiny than it is on boring but useful stability.

01:39:45   And in the same ways, you know, we said last week, you know, Jenkins is not sexy, you know,

01:39:50   bug-free software to most developers, especially younger ones, is not terribly sexy. But to us old

01:39:57   people, and now I'll call myself old, bug-free software, or as close as you can get of course,

01:40:02   is super sexy, and I want a lot more of that in my life. I want to write it better, and I want to

01:40:07   consume it. And it just feels like Apple hasn't cared about stability as much as they appeared to

01:40:19   in the past. Now, why is that? It could be any number of things. Maybe it's that they're spread

01:40:24   thin, not necessarily in terms of people, but there's just a lot more going on in all of these

01:40:31   OS's. Like there's a lot more stuff. Like take a silly example like Handoff. Like Handoff is a

01:40:37   thing where you can have a device nearby and your two devices will talk to each other, I think via

01:40:43   iCloud, and say and my phone will say "Oh I'm looking at such and such URL" and then my Mac will

01:40:48   say "Hey I see your phone is physically nearby and it's looking at such and such URL. Would you like

01:40:52   to open that here?" Like that in and of itself does not seem that inherently complex and in many ways

01:41:00   is very, very useful, but that's adding a complexity that none of us had—Apple, us,

01:41:08   anyone—a few years ago.

01:41:10   And I don't know, I just feel like as the OSs have been getting more and more and more

01:41:17   involved and more and more and more complex, there has not appeared to have been a commensurate

01:41:23   interest or increase in interest in stability and quality assurance.

01:41:28   And it's getting to the point that just a week or two ago, I wish I remember what I

01:41:33   was doing or what happened.

01:41:35   But I thought for a fleeting moment, like, I can't put up with this anymore.

01:41:40   And I want to say it was something on my phone, and I really, really, really wish I remember

01:41:43   what it was.

01:41:44   And for a fleeting moment, just for a second, I thought, I can't put up with this anymore.

01:41:48   This shit never works.

01:41:51   Let me tell you what you might have been thinking of, because this is exactly the last time

01:41:54   I had this thought.

01:41:55   My wife's been unlocking her computer with her Series 3 watch because she's got a high

01:41:59   Sierra, she's got a 5K Mac, she's got a Series 3 Apple watch and doing the watch unlock thing,

01:42:04   and she liked it until it stopped working.

01:42:07   And why did it stop working?

01:42:08   Pfft, beats the hell out of me.

01:42:09   HDMI CEC?

01:42:10   Might as well be, might as well be, because that's the type of thing, like, so that feature

01:42:15   was introduced a while ago and it was tweaked for a high Sierra, right?

01:42:18   And this is an example of the complexity of the case he was talking about.

01:42:20   It's a complicated thing.

01:42:21   It is multiple operating systems, multiple devices, multiple wireless radios, and all

01:42:25   sorts of crap.

01:42:27   It is ferociously complicated, a complication that never existed in the old world where

01:42:30   there was one computer that wasn't even networked, let alone your watch and people walking around

01:42:36   and radios bouncing and trying to judge distances and an authentication system.

01:42:40   So much opportunity for things to go wrong.

01:42:43   But it's a feature they chose to introduce.

01:42:46   And I can understand it being buggy when they first put it out, but if this is going to

01:42:50   to be a feature that you have, like you say,

01:42:52   or that you were going to ship this feature,

01:42:56   you have to be committed to keep working on it

01:43:00   until it works basically all the time.

01:43:02   Because otherwise, why have the feature?

01:43:04   Because features that don't work all the time,

01:43:05   people give up on.

01:43:06   Like, Casey, whatever feature you were trying to think of.

01:43:08   You're just like, I give up.

01:43:09   Like, it is not--

01:43:11   they're very difficult to debug.

01:43:13   You're not sure what to do.

01:43:14   You don't know why it isn't working.

01:43:17   And at a certain point you're like,

01:43:18   well, just forget it then.

01:43:20   Because if it doesn't work all the time,

01:43:21   I don't want to be sitting there

01:43:23   and wondering why it's not working,

01:43:24   but it gives me the message that watches it in range,

01:43:29   or try again, or whatever.

01:43:30   It's like, I'm sitting right here like I always do.

01:43:31   What's the problem?

01:43:32   Maybe I reboot both things.

01:43:33   And it's like, no, I'm not gonna reboot.

01:43:35   I'm doing stuff.

01:43:36   I don't want to reboot the computer.

01:43:37   I don't want to reboot my watch.

01:43:38   I don't want to sign out of iCloud.

01:43:40   And you just give up on it.

01:43:41   That feature might as well not exist, right?

01:43:44   It is either gonna work enough that it is usable

01:43:47   or it's not going to.

01:43:48   And that bar is not met by a lot of things.

01:43:51   Maybe Siri is one of those things for a lot of people.

01:43:53   It's like, I talk to Siri sometimes,

01:43:54   but she annoys me and doesn't give me answers.

01:43:57   And so I just don't talk to her anymore.

01:43:59   Or I only have her set timers or whatever,

01:44:02   do some sort of limited thing.

01:44:04   And that's the kind of failure,

01:44:06   you mentioned stability before and valuing,

01:44:07   like bug-free software and everything.

01:44:08   That's the kind of failure that doesn't show up

01:44:10   in easy metrics.

01:44:11   I think Apple software, and I've mentioned this before,

01:44:13   is much better about crashing and leaking memory

01:44:15   than it has been in a long time,

01:44:17   because those are easy things to measure.

01:44:19   But these other kind of bugs that are just kind of like

01:44:21   frustrating, nothing crashes, no data loss,

01:44:24   but sometimes it doesn't work for inexplicable reasons

01:44:27   and it makes you abandon the feature,

01:44:29   that's really difficult for it to show up

01:44:31   in Apple's metrics, you know,

01:44:33   'cause Apple is not as obsessive as some other,

01:44:37   as every iOS app is about tracking every single thing

01:44:39   that you do as a user.

01:44:40   Like it's not tracking your every motion

01:44:41   and recording your screen and reporting it back to Apple.

01:44:44   They are sending back crash reports and stuff like that,

01:44:46   but occasionally they'll ask you for system reports for bug things, but if people give

01:44:50   up on a feature and don't end up using it, Apple probably has limited reasons, limited

01:44:55   knowledge of that, or if they do know about it, they don't know what the cause is.

01:44:58   And I would love to tell Apple, "Hey, Apple, we're about to give up on ever trying to unlock

01:45:02   a computer with a watch because it suddenly stopped working and I have no idea why."

01:45:06   And that's a failure that probably doesn't even show up on customer stat because you're

01:45:10   like, "Well, I couldn't unlock my watch before and for a day or two it worked and it was

01:45:14   cool, but now it doesn't. Oh, well, I'm back to the status quo, but I think it's a pretty

01:45:17   massive failure to say, look, if you're going to have that feature, you got to make it work

01:45:20   all the time. Just like typing your password in the text box works all the time, right?

01:45:25   The watch has to be like that too, or just don't have that feature or have a way to debug

01:45:29   it or figure something out. But that that's one of my major sources of frustration.

01:45:32   David

01:45:32   Coincidentally, Watch & Lock has been reasonably bulletproof for me, but I don't debate anything

01:45:40   you just said.

01:45:41   Like, if that happens to be your bugbear, then yeah, you're absolutely right.

01:45:44   As you were talking, I thought of a couple of examples of when this was infuriating to

01:45:48   me.

01:45:51   The first example—I'm trying to figure out how much depth I want to get into here—the

01:45:55   first example was I went for a run on Thanksgiving morning, and I did that in part because it

01:46:00   It was a day that I would normally go for a run if I hadn't just recorded ATP.

01:46:06   But beyond that, I wanted the neat little badge that you get if you do 5K walk, run,

01:46:11   push, etc.

01:46:13   And when I did my 5K run, I never got my badge.

01:46:18   And it turned out, after talking to a lot of people, some inside Apple, some not, it

01:46:23   turned out what had happened was I had set my watch and phone to be localized to Australia.

01:46:30   And the reason I did that is because I want to be able to have day-to-day/month-to-month/year-to-year

01:46:37   like it should be and still have everything else be the same, like dollar, for example.

01:46:42   Now unfortunately I get metric in a lot of places, and I'm not here to debate metric

01:46:46   versus imperial, which is weird because that's one of my favorite pastimes, but nevertheless

01:46:52   I had my phone and watch set to metric, excuse me, set to Australia.

01:46:56   And so, understandably, it makes sense that I didn't get an American Thanksgiving thing

01:47:04   on a phone and watch that were set to Australia.

01:47:07   Now, I still disagree with it, but I understand it.

01:47:11   Like if I'm standing in America, the thing has a—both of these devices have a friggin'

01:47:16   GPS on them.

01:47:17   They know where I'm standing.

01:47:18   They know where I did that run.

01:47:21   I can go into my health app right now and see the route I took that run on.

01:47:26   So to me, this is a stupid decision, but I can understand it.

01:47:31   Nevertheless, I finally figure out, okay, that's why.

01:47:35   And then I set my devices to America because I hear it's getting great again.

01:47:41   Can't see it, but that's what I'm told.

01:47:43   And, and so I, and so I set it to America.

01:47:47   It stings.

01:47:49   I sent it to America and the 2017 badge shows up reasonably quickly.

01:47:56   But the 2016 badge, which I had also earned from a walk, is nowhere to be found.

01:48:03   And I learned that if you just wait, it should magically appear.

01:48:08   And guess what happened?

01:48:10   I just waited and then friggin' magic happened and it magically appeared.

01:48:15   like, iCloud is a thing. Why is this s*** not in iCloud? Like, why is this a thing?

01:48:23   The Apple Watch is the Nintendo Switch of Apple's devices. Like, super important data

01:48:27   that people care about. Like, not actually real-world important, but like important to

01:48:32   people. Kind of like, you know, you're saving Zelda, right? In the grand scheme of things,

01:48:36   it's not important. Like, you're not going to die from it, right? But to people who have

01:48:40   sunk, you know, a hundred hours into Zelda, it is super important. So those stupid badges

01:48:44   on the Apple Watch for your achievements.

01:48:45   In the grand scheme of things,

01:48:47   nothing's gonna happen to you if they're gone.

01:48:48   - Agreed, agreed.

01:48:49   - But people are so angry if they go away.

01:48:51   And so how does Apple protect what is perhaps

01:48:53   the second most valuable piece of information they store?

01:48:56   First being their actual data,

01:48:57   but the second most valuable one

01:48:58   being their stupid achievement badges?

01:49:00   Oh, we're not gonna back that up.

01:49:01   Oh yeah, there's a million things you can do

01:49:03   to lose all that information.

01:49:04   No, no, we don't care about that at all.

01:49:05   Same thing with Nintendo Switch.

01:49:06   We're like, no, you can't back up your data.

01:49:08   No, we won't store it in the cloud.

01:49:10   And if your Switch dies, yeah, you lose all your saves.

01:49:12   It's such a dumb decision.

01:49:13   (laughing)

01:49:14   And I think it stems from just, I mean, Nintendo was so excusable.

01:49:17   Nintendo has a history of doing stupid things.

01:49:19   But Apple, I don't think they understand exactly how seriously people take those badges.

01:49:24   And how angry, how unreasonably angry people are when they lose their badges.

01:49:30   That was me.

01:49:31   I spent half an hour running, well, ostensibly because I want to get healthier, but also

01:49:36   because I wanted that friggin' badge.

01:49:37   Yeah, you won credit, dammit.

01:49:39   You worked hard for that.

01:49:40   I wanted my treat.

01:49:41   Max got his treat.

01:49:42   I want my treat.

01:49:43   So, anyway, the point is that it's a stupid thing, just like Jon said.

01:49:49   And I don't know, maybe those achievements are synced via iCloud, but why did it take

01:49:54   like 24 or 48 hours for that junk to magically come from the cloud onto my device?

01:50:00   I don't think it actually is synced.

01:50:02   I think it's all on-device.

01:50:05   I think, like Nintendo, they are getting better about it.

01:50:08   Nintendo has actually said they are working their way towards sane cloud backups, which

01:50:11   which it should have had from day one.

01:50:13   I think Apple will eventually work on this, but judging by how long it's taken them to

01:50:18   not deliver the iCloud message sync that they advertise for iOS 11, and again, another source

01:50:23   of like, not just people caring about the contents of it, but just, you know, baseline

01:50:27   functionality that people expect that on all your devices, you see all your conversations

01:50:31   that you've had anywhere, a thing that has never been true about iMessage, that they

01:50:35   promised to make it true, your achievements, your silly achievements on your Apple Watch,

01:50:41   They should be as bulletproof as your family photos.

01:50:44   They should be everywhere.

01:50:45   You should be able to throw your watch into the ocean and get a new Apple Watch, put it

01:50:48   on and all your achievements from all your past Apple Watches should be there to show

01:50:50   that yes, you had a 28-day streak of meeting your goals in 2015.

01:50:55   Like why shouldn't it be?

01:50:57   It's such a small amount of data and Apple should know how incredibly important it is

01:51:01   beyond all reason to the people who do them.

01:51:03   Like that's the whole point of them.

01:51:04   That's why they're giving them these shiny little 3D things.

01:51:06   It's a silly token that we know will, you know, it's like free to play gaming.

01:51:11   Like they're exploiting human, you know, foibles to make you exercise more.

01:51:17   And them being carefree with not like not preserving them with the same vigor that they

01:51:22   preserve your family photos just shows a disconnect, like a misunderstanding of how, like in one

01:51:28   hand they know how humans work, so they're going to make the system.

01:51:30   On the other hand, they don't understand how important it is for them to keep this stuff

01:51:35   in sync.

01:51:36   Yeah, yeah, I couldn't agree more.

01:51:38   The other example I had, and this one could very well be 100% on my shoulders, but thinking

01:51:46   like a consumer and not thinking like a developer, it sure doesn't feel like it is.

01:51:51   And the problem I'm having, and I'm the only one I think that I've heard complaining about

01:51:56   this, so maybe it is me, but the problem I'm having is I'm getting to the point that I

01:52:01   feel like I am f***ing incapable of typing on my phone anymore.

01:52:05   I just can't do it successfully. I cannot get a friggin sentence out on my phone without

01:52:10   having a thousand typos. And it's driving me insane. And half the time it's autocorrect

01:52:17   doing something increasingly bananas as time goes on, which is why I think maybe it's this

01:52:22   weirdo machine learning stuff. But...

01:52:25   Yeah, that's not going well.

01:52:26   Yeah, it's really not. And I understand the thought process. It makes sense. It's a clever

01:52:31   But I don't think the execution is is is going well at all. But uh, and again, I don't know if it's just me

01:52:37   Maybe I just have fatter fingers than I've ever had despite all this wonderful running

01:52:41   I'm doing maybe I'm exercising my fingers as I'm running so they're getting fatter and fatter with muscle. Who knows but

01:52:46   Whatever it is, whatever it is

01:52:49   I feel like I cannot type on my phone anymore without a billion typos and it's getting to the point that you know

01:52:56   Once we got SMS on the Mac, which is a great example of something that made my life

01:53:01   Demonstrably better. I mean that genuinely once I could send not only iMessages but SMS from my Mac. It was

01:53:08   amazing

01:53:10   And the reason it was amazing was because I could talk to my all of my in-laws none of whom have iPhones

01:53:17   I could talk to them and send them text messages from my Mac on a full-size keyboard and

01:53:21   It was magic and it always worked and to be honest to this day. It's still almost always works

01:53:27   So that is an example of a feature that I think is very complex

01:53:30   Because the only thing that can send this SMS as far as I'm aware is my phone and it's but it's very complex

01:53:35   But it works and it's almost bulletproof

01:53:37   So anyway, it's gotten to the point with my iPhone that if I have to type more than like a one or two line text message

01:53:43   I'm going searching for the nearest Mac so I can type it with a physical keyboard because I know at least then I'll be able

01:53:49   do it without ripping my hair out. And I apologize if it's just me, but it's a very clear example of

01:53:54   a time when I thought about throwing my phone out the window, or I really for a fleeting moment

01:53:59   thought to myself, "So how bad are those pixels these days anyway?" And like that's a problem.

01:54:06   I'm a super fan. Like part of my living is talking about how much I love Apple. And I'm thinking to

01:54:13   myself, "Oh God, maybe I should just, maybe I should put this aside." And you know what,

01:54:18   what the healthy thing to do would probably be for me to try a Pixel and realize that

01:54:22   I'm just being a big baby and that really, really life is considerably worse on the other

01:54:28   side. Unless it isn't. But who knows. I don't know, am I crazy on this? Like, do you feel

01:54:34   the same way I do? It's funny that you mention SMS on the Mac, because I have one person

01:54:41   that I talk to that doesn't have an iPhone that I have to send SMS to, and I always do

01:54:46   it from my phone because I could never remember if you could do it from the Mac. And every

01:54:50   time I went to go check, I'm usually at work, like when I need to send SMSes to this person,

01:54:54   every time I went to check at my Mac, I would bring up messages on my Mac at work, and I

01:54:58   would find it signed out, and I would enter my correct password to sign in, and it would

01:55:02   just say, "Nope, sorry, I couldn't sign you in. Sorry, error failed, couldn't sign in

01:55:08   to iMessage." And the only fix to this is for me to restart my Mac. Once I actually

01:55:14   reset my PRAM, but then I realized it was probably just the restarting of it that did

01:55:18   it. That's how desperate I was. But anyway, this is another one of those things of like,

01:55:21   "Hey, does iMessage work on your Mac?" Yeah, most of the time. Most of the time, like,

01:55:24   I send and receive messages in the Messages application on my Mac at work back and forth

01:55:28   to my wife. You know, it's nice to type on the big keyboard just like Casey, right? Here

01:55:31   I am doing Messages. But every time I think, "Oh, I should try SMS from here too," and

01:55:36   I bring up Messages and it just gets a little -- the thing pops up and says -- and wants

01:55:39   me to sign in and has like, "You can skip this process." Anyway, like, I realize, "Oh,

01:55:43   I am permanently signed out again.

01:55:45   Something having to do probably with hardware IDs and VPNs

01:55:49   and the fact that it's on wifi and ethernet

01:55:51   at the same time when it's plugged into the dock.

01:55:53   And I don't, I'm like all sorts of guessing

01:55:55   about what could possibly be causing iMessage

01:55:57   to be confused.

01:55:58   But anyway, I restart, I log back in,

01:56:01   usually restarting fixes it.

01:56:02   And then I get a notifications on every single one

01:56:04   of my devices that says,

01:56:05   "You just signed in with your Apple ID to iMessage

01:56:07   on blah, blah, blah."

01:56:08   You know that message you get?

01:56:09   Like I get that on all my devices,

01:56:11   which makes you think it has re-provisioned a new private and public key for that one

01:56:15   computer. That's the type of thing that, like, you know, messages. It's a thing. It's there.

01:56:20   It works. I'm not abandoning it because the utility is still too high, but it bothers

01:56:24   me that it's not as reliable as AIM on ADM was for like a decade.

01:56:28   Well, in your defense, SMS relay is like its own dance that you have to go through on each

01:56:35   computer in iPad and whatever iOS device that you want to do it on. So like I actually wrote

01:56:41   to post in late 2014, which we'll link in the show notes, as to the song and dance you

01:56:46   need to get through in order to turn this on.

01:56:48   And this is just for SMS.

01:56:49   This is not iMessage.

01:56:50   This is just SMS.

01:56:51   Is it just proxy through your phone?

01:56:52   It's not actually…

01:56:53   Correct.

01:56:54   Oh, that sucks.

01:56:55   Oh, why?

01:56:56   Well, maybe that's…

01:56:57   Well, this is the answer that I can never get to because I always permanently sign that

01:56:58   up messages.

01:56:59   But I'm good to know that this must have been what I was forgetting about this, is

01:57:03   that it actually does…

01:57:04   Yeah.

01:57:05   That's a bummer.

01:57:06   You should read my blog, Jon.

01:57:07   It's pretty good.

01:57:08   I think I did.

01:57:09   I'm looking at this thing and I remember your horribly blurred out screenshots.

01:57:10   screenshots which you should never ever do. I was looking at this right now and gagging

01:57:14   actually it's funny you say that I was just looking at it and going oh but anyway. I've

01:57:18   said this before as a thing that people don't appreciate it over doing Mac OS reviews for

01:57:23   so long that I didn't have blurred out screenshots and you know how hard that is it's really

01:57:27   hard. Oh I don't doubt it. It's really hard because personal information is everywhere.

01:57:32   Anyway but yeah but the point I'm driving at is you know in some of these things like

01:57:36   I forget how complex they are and how reasonably bulletproof they are.

01:57:41   In SMS, like this is Happy Casey, right?

01:57:43   Like SMS Relay is an example of that.

01:57:45   It has to send my SMSs to my phone because as far as I understand, my phone is the only

01:57:50   thing that can actually issue an SMS to my carrier.

01:57:54   And this stuff works.

01:57:55   I use it all day every day and it works great.

01:57:58   It is almost flawless.

01:58:00   But if I actually want to send an SMS from the friggin' device that it's sending them,

01:58:05   If I want to type a text message on my iPhone, it only gets through without typos maybe one

01:58:12   time out of three.

01:58:13   And it's driving me insane.

01:58:14   I don't know if you can blame the autocorrect for that.

01:58:17   Aside from the silly "can't type the letter i" thing, I know they have had some wonkiness

01:58:20   with it, but you're sure it's just not a new size of the phone because the time is

01:58:24   differently sized?

01:58:25   You know, it very well may be.

01:58:26   It could be…

01:58:27   And all your thumb reflexes are off?

01:58:28   It could be, but I feel like…

01:58:31   What it feels like, and again, this is maybe all in my head, but it feels like the way

01:58:39   the accuracy checks on key presses either got less forgiving or, I don't know, something

01:58:48   happened like two or three, maybe even four versions of iOS ago.

01:58:52   And I used to type really accurately, like around the time of the 6, and it was like

01:59:00   the 6s or something like that where everything took a turn and all of a sudden I just could

01:59:05   not type anymore and it's just been getting worse and worse and you would think like between

01:59:09   the 6s and my 7 it would get better and yes I agree with you that when I go to the 10

01:59:14   maybe that it would have a moment you know I would have to retrain myself a little bit

01:59:19   and I think that that's some of it but I feel like just the way the way it detects my keypress

01:59:26   It used, even if I was wrong, it understood what I was doing in like the 5S6 era, and

01:59:33   now it's either less forgiving or it's just changed the way things work, and I have not

01:59:39   been able to retrain my brain.

01:59:41   I've been able to retrain my brain on the home button, but I can't retrain my brain

01:59:44   on the keyboard.

01:59:45   You need to turn to my mom and just start pressing that microphone button and talking

01:59:48   to your phone.

01:59:49   The transcription is really good.

01:59:50   That's the only way she types into these things.

01:59:53   She talks to it in a very stilted, artificial sounding voice.

01:59:56   I don't know.

01:59:57   Well, thanks to our three sponsors this week.

02:00:00   Hover, Away, and Eero, and we will talk to you next week.

02:00:04   [MUSIC]

02:00:14   Oh it was accidental.

02:00:16   John didn't do any research.

02:00:19   Margo and Casey wouldn't let him.

02:00:22   Cause it was accidental.

02:00:24   It was accidental.

02:00:27   And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM.

02:00:32   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them.

02:00:37   [Music]

02:01:07   episode 250 is when it all took a turn. What a great episode 250 spectacular that was.

02:01:13   Can we talk about anything that makes us happy? When I'm getting fired up about things, then...

02:01:19   You know it's bad. Yeah, something is not good.

02:01:22   Yeah, our after show is only one thing. Casey on Cars.

02:01:26   Oh, yeah, that's a thing. That turns out that I completed my video, so if you haven't watched it,

02:01:33   I put a link, I will put a link in the show notes. I have released Casey on Cars episode 1

02:01:39   Which is on the Alpha Romeo and the response has been

02:01:44   exceedingly positive which I am super thankful for

02:01:48   However, I think that I'm still only within my own audience

02:01:53   So

02:01:55   There was a comment that came through

02:01:57   I'll have to see if I can find it really really quickly, but I may not be able to but there was a comment

02:02:03   that somebody wrote in that seemed clear to me that it was someone outside of my audience

02:02:11   and they were like, "Oh, this is garbage. Like, oh, here we go. BMW is a copy of an

02:02:18   Alfa already 40 years." I think this person is not a native English speaker. "And you

02:02:25   Apple headphones just show how much you know about quality." Okay.

02:02:29   You Apple headphones? Oh, AirPods?

02:02:31   So basically because I thought an Apple product, much less AirPods, were sufficient for this

02:02:38   video, obviously I don't know what I'm doing. And again, obviously we've talked this to

02:02:42   death, we don't need to go back into it. I understand the foibles, or many of the foibles

02:02:45   of the video, but if you hadn't heard me talk this to death, that is the sort of comment

02:02:52   that an obnoxious YouTuber would write, and thus I think that particular individual may

02:02:57   may have come from outside my audience, but everyone else, even like the pretty critical

02:03:02   ones from, I could tell it was somebody who knew who I was, right? It would say, "Oh,

02:03:06   you know, this really does have crappy audio and you got to fix that." But you know, whatever.

02:03:11   That to me sounded like it was my audience, whereas this one did not. So anyway, as we

02:03:16   sit here tonight, it's over 10,000 views, which is super good for several reasons. One

02:03:20   of which is you can start monetizing once your channel gets 10,000 views, which is excellent.

02:03:25   So I am in automated review last I looked anyway with YouTube, so hopefully they will

02:03:30   let me monetize soon.

02:03:32   And I don't know if I'll ever make any real money off of this, but it would be nice to

02:03:35   make more than zero.

02:03:37   And we'll see what happens.

02:03:38   Once you click that monetization button, you'll find out that there's a brief clip of distant

02:03:41   music, copyrighted music in the background, and you'll immediately be demonetized by a

02:03:45   machine and there'll be one strike against your account.

02:03:46   And then you'll have the real YouTube experience, which by the way, I have had.

02:03:49   I think I already have one strike because of copyright stuff.

02:03:53   Nice.

02:03:54   Yeah, my channel is still under review as I write this.

02:03:56   But, uh, but yeah, so the response is, has been really, really, really positive,

02:04:01   and I'm really, really, really appreciative of it.

02:04:03   And the general response has been, "Oh, this wasn't near as bad as I expected."

02:04:09   In fact, I think Marco had said that to me privately somewhere.

02:04:12   Yeah, I think I chose more gentle words, but yes, that is, that was my opinion of,

02:04:16   like, I was expecting it to be way worse because it was your very first video of this type,

02:04:20   and you don't have a history of making videos like this.

02:04:23   So I thought, I was really thinking it was gonna be

02:04:27   a lot more painful.

02:04:29   And it wasn't painful at all.

02:04:30   There was some audio that was bad,

02:04:32   but you already warned us about that.

02:04:34   (laughs)

02:04:35   And the fact is, the bad audio,

02:04:37   it does detract from those scenes,

02:04:39   but you still can watch them and enjoy what you're saying.

02:04:42   It doesn't totally ruin it, it's noticeable.

02:04:46   But the video overall, it was great because

02:04:49   you actually nailed the writing and the commentary.

02:04:52   - Well, that's very kind of you.

02:04:53   - And that's what we're watching for.

02:04:54   You know, like that's, you know, you had said

02:04:57   in our last talk about this on our last After Show,

02:05:01   you had said like, you know, you think you had something

02:05:04   here with the story and everything,

02:05:06   and I didn't know like whether that would come across

02:05:09   in the video because it takes a certain degree of skill

02:05:12   and sensibility of doing videos to have what you're saying,

02:05:16   or what you're trying to say come across.

02:05:19   But it did, you did it.

02:05:21   It worked and it was really good.

02:05:24   As I said to you, I think privately

02:05:26   and in my tweet mini review about it,

02:05:29   yeah, there are some things that could be better about it,

02:05:31   but for a first video, it's incredibly good.

02:05:34   It's way better than I would have guessed.

02:05:37   It's way better than my first video was by a mile.

02:05:41   And yeah, I think you have something here.

02:05:44   And whether it reaches other people or not

02:05:46   or whether one random YouTuber says something bad about it,

02:05:50   you don't need to care about that.

02:05:52   - Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

02:05:53   - What you need to care about now

02:05:54   is making this a thing you do, if that's what you want.

02:05:58   And you might decide it's not for you,

02:06:00   that it's too much work or whatever, I hope you don't,

02:06:02   because it turns out I think you're good at this

02:06:04   and I think you can be even better with more experience.

02:06:06   And if this is a thing you wanna keep doing,

02:06:10   I will reiterate what I said last time,

02:06:12   which is find a reason to keep doing it.

02:06:14   Find other cars to review.

02:06:16   Review your cars that you already,

02:06:18   you have like seven cars in your garage.

02:06:19   review your dad's cars, go to Cars and Coffee

02:06:22   and talk about cars there and talk about why

02:06:24   you are excited to see certain ones

02:06:26   and why they are interesting.

02:06:28   Because anybody who's ever hung around you in real life

02:06:31   knows that you are basically always hosting a car show.

02:06:33   (laughing)

02:06:35   No matter where you are, no matter what you're doing,

02:06:37   no matter who you're with, you will point out a car

02:06:40   on the road and be like, oh, that's one of those.

02:06:41   And you'll explain, and you are enthusiastic about it,

02:06:44   which is step one, and then step two is you will explain

02:06:46   why that's interesting or what's cool about that car.

02:06:49   you have the ability, if you want to record yourself

02:06:52   on video talking about a car, you can do that

02:06:55   in lots of different ways and times in your life

02:06:58   for lots of different kinds of cars

02:07:01   that have a pretty wide diversity

02:07:03   of what makes them interesting.

02:07:05   And you don't have to do only new cars,

02:07:08   you don't have to do only high-end cars,

02:07:10   you don't have to do only European sports cars.

02:07:13   (laughing)

02:07:15   You can review the used minivan

02:07:18   that your friends might have or something.

02:07:20   You can review any car you come across,

02:07:23   any car you might have access to for a few days.

02:07:26   Whatever you need, you can do that,

02:07:28   and I think you should.

02:07:30   And your job right now is not to have this one video

02:07:33   get tons of views and then eventually

02:07:37   hundreds of cents of income.

02:07:39   (laughing)

02:07:40   That is not your job for this.

02:07:43   The job of this video is A,

02:07:45   to get you starting making videos

02:07:48   and B, to start your YouTube channel.

02:07:51   But it isn't meant to get big yet.

02:07:57   Getting big takes time, getting an audience takes time,

02:08:00   getting an audience worth monetizing takes time.

02:08:03   Newsflash, you're gonna make not much from this video.

02:08:06   - Oh yeah, oh yeah, oh I know.

02:08:07   - Even if you get approved for monetization tomorrow,

02:08:10   you know, it has already had most of the views

02:08:12   it is likely to have, because that's how YouTube works.

02:08:15   - Yep.

02:08:15   - That's how most things on the internet work.

02:08:18   And YouTube rates, you know it's funny,

02:08:21   when podcasters see the view counts on YouTube videos,

02:08:26   we're just like, oh my God, we have to get on YouTube.

02:08:30   When YouTubers hear about the CPMs we charge

02:08:32   for podcast ads, they run to us,

02:08:35   oh my God, we have to get a podcast.

02:08:36   (laughing)

02:08:39   Because YouTube views are worth so little.

02:08:41   They do have lots of them, but they're worth nothing.

02:08:45   (laughing)

02:08:46   So, you know, this is not going to be

02:08:48   a money-making venture for you,

02:08:50   probably for a long time, if ever,

02:08:53   but your job right now is to have a creative project

02:08:58   that might eventually become a money-making venture,

02:09:01   but you should only keep doing it

02:09:03   if you enjoy the creative project part of it,

02:09:05   because that's all it might ever be,

02:09:07   and if it is a money-making venture,

02:09:09   it's not gonna be a life-changing amount of money

02:09:12   for a long time.

02:09:13   It might be like,

02:09:15   I mean, I don't even know what to expect with,

02:09:17   'cause I don't know what kind of numbers you might expect,

02:09:20   but to be a meaningful amount of money

02:09:24   to have a meaningful effect on your life

02:09:25   and whether you can go indie full-time,

02:09:27   which you totally should, and things like that,

02:09:29   is you need to be making thousands of dollars a month

02:09:31   from this.

02:09:32   - Yeah, yeah, definitely.

02:09:33   - And I think thousands a month is unlikely for a while,

02:09:36   especially if you're gonna only release one video a year.

02:09:39   (laughing)

02:09:40   I think tens to hundreds a month

02:09:43   is where you're probably gonna start if you keep it up.

02:09:47   And then if over time you build up a bigger audience,

02:09:50   then you can start talking about real money, basically.

02:09:54   But that's a long way into the future.

02:09:56   Right now you need to focus on,

02:09:58   is this a thing you wanna keep doing?

02:10:00   And if it is, keep doing it.

02:10:03   Start making more car videos.

02:10:05   And they don't have to be big productions like this.

02:10:07   They can be small ones.

02:10:08   It can literally be you walking around cars and coffee,

02:10:10   which you do every weekend anyway.

02:10:13   can literally be that and give a 45 second overview,

02:10:17   or a two minute overview of one or two cars that are there

02:10:22   that are interesting, and tell us why.

02:10:24   - Yeah, yeah, I totally hear you.

02:10:26   And my intention is to do Erin's car next,

02:10:30   and I'm starting to contemplate,

02:10:33   what do I have to say about Erin's car?

02:10:35   And for those that maybe fast forward this section,

02:10:38   usually she has a almost brand new 2017 Volvo XC90,

02:10:42   which is a big, slow, well, reasonably slow SUV.

02:10:45   - It's probably faster than Jon's computer.

02:10:48   - Everything is.

02:10:49   I mean, our phones are.

02:10:50   But anyway, I think the idea is to do that next

02:10:55   for several reasons.

02:10:56   One, I have access to it.

02:10:58   Two, it's kind of a polar opposite of the Alfa Romeo.

02:11:03   And three, I'm telling myself I wanna try

02:11:08   to get that done by the end of the year.

02:11:10   I don't think I'll succeed, but I'm going to try.

02:11:13   We also have some other big things happening

02:11:15   at the end of the year, so that'll really

02:11:16   throw a wrench in things.

02:11:17   - Yeah, newsflash, you're getting nothing done

02:11:19   by the end of the year.

02:11:20   - I know.

02:11:21   - Don't worry about that.

02:11:22   - But I'm setting a goal of myself.

02:11:24   I'd like to spend the next week or two

02:11:25   coming up with kind of the, maybe literally,

02:11:27   the storyboards, 'cause that's one of the regrets

02:11:29   I have with Yael Formeo is I never spent enough time

02:11:32   really thinking about, until it was all over,

02:11:34   really thinking about what I wanted to say,

02:11:36   so I just kind of filmed everything

02:11:39   hoped I could make heads or tails of it after the fact.

02:11:41   Obviously I think I did an okay job, but it would have been better if it was more deliberate.

02:11:45   But anyway, I want to review Aaron's car and see what I can make of that and see if I can

02:11:52   make something interesting out of that.

02:11:55   Alpha Romeo is rare and interesting to begin with.

02:11:57   And if I drove up to you or to Underscore and borrowed a Model S, that's interesting

02:12:03   just because it's a Tesla.

02:12:05   I'm hopeful that I can still be interesting with a more run-of-the-mill car.

02:12:12   And granted, you know, a brand new Volvo SUV is not strictly run-of-the-mill, but compared

02:12:17   to a $80,000 Alfa Romeo, it's considerably more run-of-the-mill, right?

02:12:23   This is like me, like, you know, going to borrow like a 75D and like, "Oh, this is now

02:12:28   the consumer level, you know, accessible car for everyone."

02:12:31   You know what I mean.

02:12:32   You know what I mean.

02:12:33   But yes, your point is fair.

02:12:35   point is there. So anyway, so we'll see what happens. I hope to stick with it. One of the--I'd

02:12:42   like to hear Jon's thoughts, although I'm scared to--I'd like to hear Jon's thoughts

02:12:45   in just a moment, but I thought it would be interesting to note that a couple of the things

02:12:50   that I expected, or that I found most unexpected, really, were that the little portions I put

02:12:59   in of Declan and Arryn seemed to resonate almost more than anything else, which is not

02:13:04   a bad thing, it's a good thing, but what occurred to me only because a whole ton of people said

02:13:09   it to me was nobody else really pays attention to what their families think or how these

02:13:16   cars work for like regular stuff or anything other than one driver. And I was just, you

02:13:23   know, telling the story of this is what I did. You know, I put a car seat in it. I drove

02:13:27   my family around in it. And I didn't really think of it as like a formal statement about

02:13:31   what they thought. But it seemed like a lot of people hung on to the fact that I was talking

02:13:38   about more than just, you know, me, the meathead, petrolhead, whatever, that, you know, more

02:13:43   power, more power. And the other thing that I thought was interesting was part of the

02:13:48   reason I put it on the lift, which was actually at my dad's house, a part of the reason I

02:13:52   put it on the on the lift was because that's something that most car reviewers don't do,

02:13:57   Savage Geese does it, generally speaking, but most car reviewers don't do that. And since I have

02:14:01   access to it, I thought, okay, I'll do that. And I didn't get as much of a response off of that as I

02:14:07   expected, which is fine. And I was actually talking to a friend about this. And the friend had said,

02:14:14   you know, if you were looking for content to cut, the lift might have been the first place to look,

02:14:20   because you talk about how there's really nothing that's interesting to see under the car. And then

02:14:25   And then you talk for a couple minutes about all the stuff that's under the car.

02:14:28   And so it's either pick a story and maybe you should have just cut it.

02:14:34   And during the editing process, I wasn't planning on talking about this, but something that

02:14:37   just occurred to me, during the editing process I was trying real hard to get it closer to

02:14:41   ten minutes.

02:14:42   I landed it at about thirteen and a half.

02:14:43   And it started after my first cut at about fifteen and change.

02:14:47   And I was able to get it down some.

02:14:48   I don't know if you knew this Marco, but it turns out when people talk at 1x that's like

02:14:53   really friggin' slow. So I would try to make a point that I felt like was two sentences,

02:15:01   and I would look at it in Final Cut Pro, and it looked like it was 30 seconds of talking

02:15:05   or something like that. It was just insane how much time it took for me to talk. Ah man,

02:15:10   that was tough.

02:15:11   So try to get a three-page marketing brief into a two-minute sponsor read.

02:15:16   Yeah, exactly. So it was weird in that sense. But I really enjoyed the process, and I do

02:15:22   plan to do more of them. And by saying this publicly, I know I'm not going to get this

02:15:27   thing done by the end of the year, and at that point we'll have a new kid, which means

02:15:30   everything stops for like six months. But I'm hopeful that I will be able to find the

02:15:35   time, since I'm going to be taking some time off work, when the new baby is asleep for,

02:15:40   you know, ten minutes at a time, I hope to find the time to be able to put together something

02:15:44   about Aaron's car, and that'll be a good next step.

02:15:47   I will throw in one more thing here.

02:15:50   You mentioned that people commented and liked

02:15:54   Aaron and Declan's role in the video,

02:15:55   and that you put a car seat in it.

02:15:57   And I think, first of all,

02:15:58   I don't watch YouTube for cars,

02:16:02   so I don't know if this is a common thing,

02:16:03   but I have a feeling you're probably the only reviewer

02:16:05   who put a car seat in this car, in your review.

02:16:07   (laughing)

02:16:08   - It's the only one I've seen.

02:16:09   That doesn't mean it's the only one,

02:16:10   but it's the only one I've seen.

02:16:11   - Right, and so secondly,

02:16:12   and I was just assuming this was maybe

02:16:16   because I know your family,

02:16:17   But I thought, like the parts of Aaron Declan,

02:16:19   especially the look of displeasure that Aaron gives you,

02:16:23   I laughed my ass off at that point.

02:16:27   Those humanize the video, because you need a human,

02:16:33   like this is one of the things

02:16:34   that made Top Gear so successful.

02:16:36   You need a human element.

02:16:38   You can't just talk about specs and just hear engine noises

02:16:42   and just show the car over and over again.

02:16:45   People care about other people.

02:16:47   That's what makes videos interesting.

02:16:49   That's what makes podcasts interesting.

02:16:51   Like, people will come for the content,

02:16:55   but they will stay for the people.

02:16:57   And the people and the personalities

02:16:59   and the humanity in it are what builds

02:17:02   and keeps an audience.

02:17:05   And so that's not something you should ever shy away from.

02:17:09   If anything, you should try to figure out

02:17:10   how to add more of that.

02:17:12   Like, part of the reason why the writing of this video

02:17:14   was so good is because it was a lot about you

02:17:17   and your humanity about your identity with cars

02:17:21   and the stick shift and everything else.

02:17:23   That was a major part of your theme in this video

02:17:26   and that's interesting because you're a person

02:17:29   and people like other people and their stories

02:17:31   and their emotions and their personalities.

02:17:34   That's an element that you should have

02:17:36   in all of your videos and you should definitely

02:17:39   not try to minimize or cut out those segments.

02:17:42   If anything, you should have more of those,

02:17:44   at least if Erin doesn't kill you first.

02:17:46   (laughing)

02:17:47   - Well, I was doing a real disservice to Erin

02:17:49   because there were only a couple times

02:17:52   I filmed with her in the car,

02:17:53   and the only thing that I thought was particularly useful

02:17:55   or interesting was this kinda snarky comment from her.

02:17:59   And for anyone that's met her,

02:18:01   it is clear that that is not,

02:18:03   well, I don't think anyway.

02:18:05   (laughing)

02:18:06   It's not her normal, she's not normally snarky.

02:18:08   She's usually super nice and super effusive.

02:18:11   And it was just so funny to me because this was just like, "Ugh, really?"

02:18:16   And so I just thought it was hysterical.

02:18:18   So I apologize publicly to Erin for kind of not putting her best foot forward, but I thought

02:18:22   the moment was worth it because it was so funny.

02:18:25   And yeah, I agree.

02:18:27   Like I didn't realize that playing the family hand, which I was doing just kind of because

02:18:32   it's part of it, was going to play so well.

02:18:35   And so, you know, if possible, I'll probably play it a little harder, further, whatever

02:18:39   whatever the analogy is I'm looking for,

02:18:41   the turn of phrase I'm looking for,

02:18:42   I'll probably do more of it next time.

02:18:44   But all right, Jon, lay it on me, where did I go wrong?

02:18:48   - Well, I marketed his video,

02:18:49   I told him everything that was wrong with it

02:18:50   and then he never made another video,

02:18:51   so I don't know if I wanna do that too.

02:18:52   (laughing)

02:18:55   - Spoiler, that's not why.

02:18:57   - Well, anyway, I could go on like that about yours,

02:19:00   but I think in the interest of time,

02:19:02   well, one thing, I think the--

02:19:03   - That's where I went wrong,

02:19:04   is I didn't have an interest in time.

02:19:06   - No, in the interest of time,

02:19:07   I'm just gonna give you a couple of the highlights,

02:19:09   I do think that because the YouTube comment section was mostly populated by friends and

02:19:13   people familiar with the show and the background and everything, I think there was less terrible

02:19:19   people there.

02:19:20   Oh, totally.

02:19:21   And I think actually the wisdom of crowds of all the people kind of got – they hit

02:19:26   most of the major things in aggregate, right?

02:19:31   So anyway, the three I would highlight is in no particular order.

02:19:37   Did you write down the script for this at a time?

02:19:39   - No, I had started storyboarding,

02:19:42   and I mean that literally.

02:19:43   I think I put it on an Instagram story,

02:19:45   so there's nothing I can link to,

02:19:46   but I did draw little boxes and storyboarded it a bit

02:19:50   on one of the last days I had the car,

02:19:54   but in retrospect, I think if I were to do this again

02:19:57   with a borrowed car like this,

02:19:59   I think I really need to take one or two days off of work

02:20:03   spend one day like thinking about in storyboarding what I want to film and spend the next day actually executing on it because

02:20:11   What I did this time was was like I said earlier basically just film everything I could and hope that I can you know

02:20:18   piece something together afterwards and there were a few places where

02:20:22   Even though the video as it's posted right now does have a bit of a story arc

02:20:27   I had to like bring certain pieces forward or back and make them slightly

02:20:33   awkward because the video I had I

02:20:37   Needed to use it to fit so as an example

02:20:39   I started talking about the transmission if memory serves a little earlier than I intended because that was the moment

02:20:46   When I had gotten in the car and I knew enough to know that I wanted to have Jason Camisa of Motor Trend

02:20:52   Shut his car door in his video and then have me shut the car door to be the transition back to my video

02:20:59   but because that arc didn't play exactly

02:21:03   When I wanted it to it ended up making the story arc a little bit awkward. Well, what was it to say about the

02:21:10   Scripts was every not so much about the video which I got to a second

02:21:14   But the script part as you noted like it's you take a surprising amount of times to say things, right?

02:21:18   And so when you write for television or movies you can't

02:21:21   write naturalistically, you have to compress meaning and compress everything down, because

02:21:28   you don't have enough time for people to speak the way they normally speak, unless you're

02:21:33   making a specific genre of movie where that's the whole shtick is that people actually are

02:21:38   naturalistic, but it takes just so long. You have to—everyone has to say everything that

02:21:42   is essentially like, "I took what a normal person would say and boiled it down, and these

02:21:47   three paragraphs become one extremely well-crafted sentence that conveys all of the plot points,

02:21:54   all of the character notes, all of the foreshadowing, and all of the nuance in this one line. And

02:22:00   it's a pain to write like that because that's not how we talk. So I would suggest try, I

02:22:06   mean maybe this won't work for your process, but at least try to see if this is a thing

02:22:10   that works for you to actually script it ahead of time. And when you script it, you can't

02:22:15   even write it like a blog post. You have to write it like a video. What I'm getting is

02:22:17   that writing your video is different than writing for your blog and is way different

02:22:20   than speaking. I think that will let you get things tighter. If you want to use inspiration

02:22:24   for someone whose process you probably are familiar with listening to podcasts, just

02:22:27   think of Gray and all the time he spends wordsmithing his narrations for his videos and how tight

02:22:31   they are. You know, because he's just getting rid of needless words, compressing the idea

02:22:36   down, finding a way to get in and out, and he does talk quickly too. Second thing is,

02:22:41   As many people pointed out in the comments, I know you are more enthusiastic about cars

02:22:45   than the person I see in this video talking about cars.

02:22:47   Many people said that, they're right.

02:22:49   I mean, the thing is, you're more enthusiastic on this podcast about cars, right?

02:22:53   So that's just, you know, being on camera or whatever.

02:22:55   I don't know what the solution is there.

02:22:56   I have no idea how to do it.

02:22:57   But as a viewer, that definitely comes across.

02:23:00   I'm like, "Casey cares more about cars than this."

02:23:02   Not that you seem nervous because you didn't.

02:23:03   You seem relaxed, but like maybe too relaxed.

02:23:06   You need to get worked up.

02:23:07   Coffee?

02:23:08   coffee. Third thing is you need way more footage, which I know sounds terrible because I'm watching

02:23:14   this video and I'm like, "Oh, God, this must have been so much work." I'm looking and I'm

02:23:17   like, "Oh, I watch it and I can see how many hours you're putting into it." And yet, what

02:23:21   I think when I'm watching it also is you need so much more footage. And you can tell that

02:23:26   if you ever do like a graph out, like just pick, you know, go to a crappy DiMero video

02:23:32   or a Harrison video or any car video

02:23:35   that your favorite thing is,

02:23:36   every time they're talking about anything,

02:23:40   they never talk for more than three words

02:23:42   before cutting to another angle of the car.

02:23:44   And it's not always like,

02:23:45   "How can I show what I'm talking?

02:23:46   "I'm talking about the gear shift.

02:23:47   "What am I gonna show except for the gear shift?"

02:23:49   You have to cut to something.

02:23:50   When you're talking about,

02:23:51   there's many scenes with you standing in front of the car

02:23:54   and just talking,

02:23:55   you have to cut to 900 different things during that.

02:23:57   Driving on the road in the sunset,

02:23:59   driving in the rain, pulling out of the drive,

02:24:01   And you don't think about it, but go watch another video

02:24:04   and see how many times they cut to,

02:24:07   sometimes a completely unrelated thing.

02:24:08   And why does that work?

02:24:09   Because when I watched this video,

02:24:12   it felt a lot like I was listening to you on a podcast

02:24:14   where you were a little sleepy.

02:24:15   'Cause I know what you sound like on podcasts.

02:24:16   You sound like this when you talk about cars.

02:24:18   But on podcasts, there's nothing to look at

02:24:19   unless you're staring at Marco's ever-changing chapter art,

02:24:22   which hasn't changed that often, so don't stare too much.

02:24:25   - Well, except when I embedded a video in the theme song

02:24:27   that nobody noticed.

02:24:28   - I noticed it, a lot of people noticed it.

02:24:30   - No one else noticed it.

02:24:31   No, they tweeted about it, didn't they?

02:24:32   Everyone was excited by it.

02:24:34   - No, they really didn't.

02:24:35   - Oh well.

02:24:36   - Wait, what did you do?

02:24:37   - The reason I look for it is 'cause someone else

02:24:39   mentioned it, maybe it was someone in a Slack mentioned it

02:24:41   and I went and dug it out 'cause I didn't notice it.

02:24:43   I don't look at the chapter already, but someone said,

02:24:45   "Hey, did you, I like what you did with that, you know,

02:24:48   "the video and the whatever chapter."

02:24:49   And then I went and looked at it because somebody said it.

02:24:51   It might have been someone in Slack.

02:24:53   But anyway, when you're watching a video

02:24:55   and listening to you talk, your eyes are like,

02:24:57   "Come on, feed me too.

02:24:58   "What do you got for me?

02:24:59   "What do you got for me?"

02:25:00   And it's not that you're not attractive

02:25:02   standing in front of a car, but they need to be fed.

02:25:04   And so if you have to cut to completely unrelated footage

02:25:08   of the car driving down a road and going around a curve

02:25:11   and going past the high and going past low

02:25:13   and a drone flying over the car

02:25:14   and pulling into the driveway,

02:25:15   that has nothing to do with what you're saying,

02:25:17   but the eyes need to be fed.

02:25:19   And you don't think about it, but like I said,

02:25:21   go pick your favorite car video and pick a section

02:25:23   where they're just talking about something

02:25:24   and they don't have any actual appropriate footage.

02:25:27   They don't have anything more to show you

02:25:29   and watch how many times they cut to just unrelated footage

02:25:31   of the car driving.

02:25:32   And when I watch those videos, I'm like,

02:25:34   this is a pleasant thing for my eyes to do

02:25:35   because while I'm listening to your words,

02:25:37   I'm also looking at,

02:25:37   oh, I haven't seen the car from that angle.

02:25:39   Oh, look at that.

02:25:40   Oh, that's a pretty tree.

02:25:41   Like your brain needs to be fed in a way

02:25:43   that you don't need for podcasts or whatever,

02:25:45   because it's all sort of going on in your head,

02:25:46   or maybe you're doing dishes or whatever.

02:25:48   I think those are the major things.

02:25:52   Much more footage and much more cutting, more enthusiasm,

02:25:55   and write like you write for TV or movies,

02:25:58   not like you talk in real life.

02:26:00   - Yeah, I think that's all completely fair.

02:26:02   And one of my goals for the next video,

02:26:06   be it Erin's car or something else entirely,

02:26:08   is I need to do better about B-roll of outside the car.

02:26:13   I need to do better inside the car too,

02:26:15   but particularly I think I need way more, to your point,

02:26:19   the car driving down the road.

02:26:20   And that's a little scary, right?

02:26:21   Because I don't have any roads that I can think of

02:26:24   where I can set up an expensive camera

02:26:27   GoPro or something like that and be a hundred percent confident that it's not gonna get knocked over or walk or whatever

02:26:32   It's just a huge amount of work like the amount of yeah

02:26:34   You shot for this is already a huge amount of work and there still wasn't enough

02:26:37   It's that's what I'm saying

02:26:38   Like it takes so much effort to make like one second of you know

02:26:42   One minute of podcasting you just talk for a minute to make one minute of video

02:26:44   You have to shoot video for what seems like hours unless until you become good at it

02:26:48   And I don't know the solution but like that's you know

02:26:51   That's what it like make the video half the length and shoot seven times as much footage

02:26:56   - And that's also why a lot of times

02:26:59   video involves multiple people.

02:27:01   It's really hard to shoot good video by yourself.

02:27:05   It's possible, there are ways to work around that,

02:27:07   but it's way harder and often times requires

02:27:10   way more either leaps of faith or fancy equipment

02:27:13   or something to achieve certain effects or outcomes

02:27:16   that normally would just take multiple people to do.

02:27:19   So you can do it, but the example of leaving a camera

02:27:23   while you drive past on a tripod,

02:27:25   Like, yeah, the better solution there

02:27:27   is to have another person at that camera

02:27:29   and even if it's on a tripod, have them running the camera

02:27:33   so that you can just drive by.

02:27:34   Or have them drive in the car or drive past you

02:27:37   and you run the camera.

02:27:38   There's a reason why video tends to take a lot of people

02:27:41   to do at a professional level.

02:27:43   And yeah, and I would just echo,

02:27:44   most of the times that I totally agree with,

02:27:47   having a lot of footage to cut to was a huge issue for me

02:27:51   when I did my crappy laptop video.

02:27:54   I didn't have enough footage to cut to.

02:27:56   And I kept trying to shoot more and I just didn't really,

02:27:58   I just couldn't get enough, I wasn't--

02:28:00   - Laptops are less dynamic than a car.

02:28:02   - Yeah.

02:28:03   - 'Cause what the car things shoot to is,

02:28:05   they just shoot to pictures of the car driving.

02:28:07   And I find, like when I was so much more conscious of it

02:28:09   after watching Casey's video,

02:28:11   that I was like scrutinizing all these other,

02:28:12   'cause I do watch a lot of car reviews on YouTube.

02:28:14   Like how do they do it?

02:28:15   Let me look at it.

02:28:16   And the thing is, they just show me the car.

02:28:18   And I'm like, every time they show me the car,

02:28:20   I'm looking at it because it's a moving picture.

02:28:22   Like in the magazine, the same way I look

02:28:24   every single picture of like the interior of the car in the magazine and look at the

02:28:27   picture of the wheel and I'm always you know pinching to zoom on my paper magazine and

02:28:31   it doesn't get any bigger and being frustrated you know like I'm staring at those photos

02:28:35   I want to see as much I'm not there at the car you know I don't that the whole point

02:28:39   of this video review is I don't have this car I don't even see this car in real life

02:28:41   I only see it in the video so I want to see it as many different ways as possible and

02:28:45   I have no objection to listening to a personal story unrelated to what I'm seeing on the

02:28:49   screen but also seeing this car from a bunch of angles and how it looks and how it sounds

02:28:54   and how it feels and what it's the sound of the blinkers inside.

02:28:57   What does the parking brake sound like when you pull it up?

02:28:59   What is it?

02:29:00   You know, all these sorts of things that like you could shoot and you're like, but I don't

02:29:03   have any place in the video where I talk about that.

02:29:05   It's like, don't worry, just put it in there somewhere.

02:29:07   I mean, you try to make it fit, but like you need to feed your eyeballs.

02:29:11   That's what needs to happen.

02:29:12   [beeping]

02:29:14   (beep)