244: The Mac Renaissance


00:00:00   Oh, did you ever modify last week's show notes?

00:00:02   Marco and I had a bet going to see when you would.

00:00:04   - I didn't even look at them, why?

00:00:06   - Oh, you didn't.

00:00:07   - What did you have in there?

00:00:08   - Nothing, nothing, Dad.

00:00:10   - Don't look. - Don't look, Dad.

00:00:11   Don't look, Dad, it's fine, Dad.

00:00:13   - Knew about the dollar signs, pre-show, my god.

00:00:15   Is it the title?

00:00:16   'Cause it's all like small caps on the website,

00:00:18   so I can't tell if that title is messed up.

00:00:19   - No, no, no, no.

00:00:20   - Do you still have your dollar signs

00:00:21   in your menu bar case here, or have you fixed that?

00:00:23   - No, I fixed it during recording.

00:00:24   - Oh yeah, okay.

00:00:26   I'm looking at... you're gonna think I'm gonna complain about the emoji FOMO thing?

00:00:30   No. Yeah, you've already skipped over it then.

00:00:32   Oh, I don't know. What am I looking at? Tell me.

00:00:35   Sonos and Google sitting in a tree. Anchor in Amazon. K-I-S-S-I-N-G.

00:00:40   You messed it up by putting the word "are" in there. "Are" is not in the nursery rhyme.

00:00:45   Oh, that is true.

00:00:45   That's all I complained about. I have no problem with you doing a cute thing in the show notes.

00:00:49   I have a problem with you not knowing how the K-S-S-I-N-G song goes.

00:00:54   It would be Sonos and Google sitting in a tree.

00:00:57   Ellipsis.

00:00:58   Next line would be KSSING.

00:01:00   (laughing)

00:01:01   You would say Anchor and Amazon.

00:01:02   Like have you not, you messed it up.

00:01:04   - But it was two different topics.

00:01:05   I was trying to wrestle it in.

00:01:07   - I know, well you blew it.

00:01:09   You blew it.

00:01:10   (laughing)

00:01:12   - I'm speaking to you two fine gentlemen tonight

00:01:15   from the peaks of, hi Sierra.

00:01:17   - As am I actually, but for a bad reason.

00:01:20   - Oh that's surprising, yeah well.

00:01:23   - Oh yeah, actually I forgot to put that in the,

00:01:25   that should be a topic today.

00:01:26   - I just put it in and I now have moved it up to the top,

00:01:29   but we can't get there yet

00:01:30   because we have to do some follow-up.

00:01:32   So since we already are enticing the listeners,

00:01:35   let's just dive right in.

00:01:37   Jon, can you tell me about Sky Platform exclusivity,

00:01:40   if you please?

00:01:41   - Speculated on the last show

00:01:43   that Sky's exclusivity to the Apple TV

00:01:47   would be just like every other exclusive

00:01:49   in the gaming world, a timed exclusive,

00:01:51   and that is actually confirmed on that game company's website.

00:01:54   It says, "Arriving first on iPhone, iPad, and Apple TV.

00:01:57   Additional platforms to follow."

00:01:59   No time window given, but we'll see how that goes.

00:02:01   So I might just be able to hold out until it comes out on,

00:02:04   you know, PS4 or whatever.

00:02:05   - And tell me about your chair, please.

00:02:08   - So I have my chair, my ridiculously expensive

00:02:11   Herman Miller chair that I've been sitting on

00:02:13   since like the last show that where we talked about it,

00:02:16   or maybe two shows ago, I forget.

00:02:18   But I just wanted to give an update on how that's going.

00:02:20   So I did take off both of the arms.

00:02:22   I had to order another Torx wrench

00:02:25   because the one that I had couldn't fit

00:02:26   in a little space or whatever,

00:02:27   but it's always good to have more Allen keys

00:02:30   and Torx wrenches, you know,

00:02:32   in metric and standard and all sorts of sizes.

00:02:35   Although Torx, it just comes in its own little sizes.

00:02:38   T3 is what I needed.

00:02:39   Anyway, arms are off.

00:02:41   (laughing)

00:02:42   T3 or T30, I forget.

00:02:43   Anyway, one of those things.

00:02:44   - I don't think it matters.

00:02:45   - It matters if you wanna take the arms off your chair.

00:02:49   I had a set of Torx wrench things, but they didn't fit.

00:02:52   And they don't make it,

00:02:53   a couple of the screws are hard to get out

00:02:55   because the levers that come out that adjust the seat

00:02:57   are kind of in the way, but it's not that bad,

00:02:59   just Amazon or some.

00:03:01   So I've been sitting on that chair for a while

00:03:03   and I have just some follow-up impressions of it.

00:03:06   I like it.

00:03:08   You know, it takes a little bit of getting used to it

00:03:10   because it doesn't feel like regular chairs,

00:03:12   but I think I've settled into it pretty well.

00:03:14   Two things about it have annoyed me so far.

00:03:16   one there is an adjustment on it to make the the seat length like basically from the back to the

00:03:22   front of the seat to to make it longer which is great for people with long legs like me because

00:03:25   you're not supposed to have like half your leg hanging off the front of the thing so you can

00:03:29   make the seat longer. i wish more cars had this some of them do some cars actually have this

00:03:33   adjustment to sort of support your legs more uh you know more down towards your knee they say

00:03:39   you're supposed to have like you know two inches between the back of your knee or the back of your

00:03:43   your calf or whatever and then the seat front. So the Herman Miller Embody has two big handles

00:03:49   that you can grab and slide out the front part of the chair, which I do. But unless

00:03:55   you are in a situation where you're sharing your chair with somebody else and constantly

00:03:59   switching back and forth, this, like many of the adjustments on chairs, is something

00:04:02   that you'll do once or twice in the beginning when you're getting used to the chair and

00:04:07   you'll eventually decide what adjustment setting is right for me. There's only a few choices

00:04:11   It's not like an infinite adjustability and you find how the seat is comfortable for you and you leave it there

00:04:17   But for the entire time you own this chair these two Mickey Mouse ears coffee cup mug

00:04:23   Handles are gonna be sticking out the front of your chair and every time I get into and out of my chair

00:04:28   Somehow I bump into those things. They're like ears like useless ears

00:04:32   Fossilized ears poking out of the front of the chair and I don't like that

00:04:36   Second thing is since I have it extended almost as far as it will go

00:04:40   I think maybe I do have it as far as it will go for my long legs

00:04:42   There's like a little bit of a creakiness in

00:04:45   The front of the chair as that a little telescoping thing kind of flexes in its in its plastic grooves

00:04:51   Maybe that squeak will go away over time. Maybe it won't but it's not a sort of

00:04:56   It's not a sound and a feeling that matches up with the price of this chair. So I really like that and the final thing

00:05:03   There's a lot of stuff under the chair for all of these spring-loaded like

00:05:08   mechanisms that handle the thing where you lean back in the chair and

00:05:12   Some of it probably also handles like the back tension and then there's the gas cylinder thing for the height of the chair

00:05:18   That giant box of works that's basically under your butt takes up a surprising amount of room and you say who cares about that room

00:05:26   Nothing's going on under your chair, right? Well, apparently I'm someone who occasionally

00:05:29   Crosses his legs and shoves both his feet underneath the bottom of the seat resting them on the top of the little leg thingies

00:05:37   And I didn't know I did this as much as I do until my heel started hitting that giant box that I'm now sitting on

00:05:43   And I suppose I could get used to it, but I'm still hitting my heels in that box surprising amount of time

00:05:48   I'm just like I kind of wish I kind of wish that wasn't there

00:05:51   I kind of wish I had that free space to shove my feet into again

00:05:55   So that's my update on the embody. Mostly. I like it. I think I'm definitely gonna keep it

00:06:02   But I'm sitting right now on the steel case gesture chair which just arrived today

00:06:07   This still has arms on it, and they're gonna be much more difficult to take off

00:06:11   I'm already puzzling over how I'm going to manage this but for now the arms are on and I'm sitting on it definitely feels different

00:06:17   than the M body

00:06:19   But and and it has

00:06:21   Right away its adjustment for the length of the seat is to move the entire seat forward

00:06:26   So it's all just one unit. There's no extendy bit

00:06:27   it. It has less creaky bits on it and there's more room underneath it for me to cross my

00:06:32   legs. But it definitely feels different than the InBody. It feels more like a normal chair

00:06:37   and I'm not sure if I like it as much as the InBody. But I'm just sitting in it for

00:06:41   five minutes here. So probably next show I'll have a more longer term update on the comparison

00:06:45   of these two chairs. And I better hurry up because I've got like 30 days for both of

00:06:49   them to decide whether I want my bazillion dollars back for these chairs.

00:06:54   So last episode I was lamenting the fact that if you have an issue with your Google Pixel

00:06:59   phone, you can get online and you can tell Google, "Hey, I've got an issue," and they'll

00:07:05   overnight you a box with a replacement Pixel, and then you put your broken Pixel into the

00:07:10   box and ship it back to them.

00:07:12   And I thought, "Man, that would be really awesome to be able to do that with Apple.

00:07:15   I wish that was a thing."

00:07:17   And a handful of people wrote in to say, "It is a thing."

00:07:20   So John Tucker pointed me to AppleCare+ Express Replacement Service, which is, if you have

00:07:27   AppleCare+ a way that you can basically do the exact same thing.

00:07:32   They ship you a box and then you put your thing in the box that the new thing came in,

00:07:36   etc.

00:07:37   There's a joke here from Saturday Night Live that I'm trying to avoid.

00:07:39   Anyway, Prem wrote in to say, "I've done this and here's what it looks like."

00:07:44   And so we'll put a link to that in the show notes, and it's exactly what you would expect

00:07:48   to see.

00:07:49   Turns out this is an option I just had no idea, which if you live far away from an Apple

00:07:53   store, which most of the country probably does, that's pretty awesome.

00:07:57   And then additionally via Prem, they pointed me to a K-Base article, hi Steven, entitled

00:08:05   "How to Use Your Apple Watch Without Your iPhone Nearby."

00:08:08   And it says a handful of things in there, but one of the things it says is to receive

00:08:12   SMS, MMS, or push notifications from third-party apps on your Apple Watch Series 3 GPS.

00:08:19   and cellular, your paired iPhone must be powered on and connected to Wi-Fi or cellular, but

00:08:22   it doesn't need to be nearby."

00:08:25   So that kind of hints to me that Apple is proxying push notifications.

00:08:32   I have since heard reports that WhatsApp, I believe that's what the app was, I know

00:08:37   that that is an app, I just can't remember what people were citing, but a handful of

00:08:40   people cited something, and I think it was WhatsApp, as not having an Apple Watch app

00:08:45   at all, yet people receiving push notifications via cellular.

00:08:49   Additionally, the developers of Do actually wrote us to say, "Do uses local notifications.

00:08:56   I think the scheduled notifications were copied from the iPhone to the watch the last time

00:09:00   they talked."

00:09:01   And I think one of us had theorized that that may be the case.

00:09:03   But it sure sounds like, and I have since gotten tacit confirmation from a couple of

00:09:08   little birdies, that Apple is indeed proxying push notifications via, I guess, iCloud or

00:09:13   something in order for your watch, your cellular watch, to receive push notifications even if it's

00:09:18   not in range. I have had several people explain to me that I'm a moron and that actually Bluetooth

00:09:24   works very far, and I'm a moron that the watch was on Wi-Fi, but I assure you I checked to see

00:09:30   what the watch says it was on, and it said it was on cellular at the time. So yes, I'm aware that

00:09:37   the watch does work on Bluetooth and Bluetooth works further away than one would expect. I

00:09:42   I understand it works on WiFi,

00:09:44   I don't know why it wasn't on WiFi

00:09:45   in this particular instance,

00:09:46   but the watch said it was on cellular

00:09:49   and I am inclined to believe the watch.

00:09:50   So, in summary, it sure does sound like

00:09:53   that Apple is proxying iPhone push notifications,

00:09:55   which is pretty cool.

00:09:56   (upbeat music)

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00:11:55   (upbeat music)

00:11:58   - Moving on to Ask ATP.

00:12:01   Jason Townsend writes in,

00:12:02   "For those who run Plex on a Mac,

00:12:05   "how do you run it with no logged in user?"

00:12:07   and I can speak for myself and say, I don't.

00:12:10   It is running as part of my user

00:12:12   that I'm using right now on this very Mac.

00:12:15   And this user is pretty much always logged in

00:12:18   and that's okay for me.

00:12:20   It may not be okay for you listener, but it's okay for me.

00:12:22   - I was hoping you had an answer to this.

00:12:24   That's why I put it in there.

00:12:25   I'm like, okay, so you probably know how to do this

00:12:26   because I do the same thing.

00:12:28   It's running as, actually running as my wife's user

00:12:31   and she's always logged in.

00:12:32   Now, here's the thing.

00:12:34   you don't, you have to be logged in,

00:12:38   but you don't have to be the front most user.

00:12:39   So if one of my kids comes up and is doing their homework

00:12:42   on their account on the same computer,

00:12:44   as long as my wife is logged in in the background,

00:12:46   Plex still works and runs.

00:12:47   So you don't have to leave their account as the front most.

00:12:50   But if there's a way to run it without you being logged in,

00:12:53   like cron it and run it as, you know,

00:12:55   some other user with no GUI or whatever,

00:12:58   I have, honestly, I haven't even tried to do it,

00:13:00   but I mean, maybe, have you tried anything, Casey,

00:13:03   or are you just like,

00:13:03   "Well, I'm always logged in, so I have no need for this."

00:13:06   - Exactly right, I have no need for it.

00:13:08   - Yeah, so we're not gonna say that it can't be done,

00:13:10   just that neither of us has tried to do it.

00:13:13   Marco, I assume the same.

00:13:15   - Yeah, I mean, to me, the idea of running it

00:13:18   without having a logged in user basically as root

00:13:22   never even occurred to me, because that's not how

00:13:24   I would think to run things that are on a Mac

00:13:27   in a server role.

00:13:29   Even though I know there are things that Macs can do

00:13:31   as a server with no user, like the built-in Apache server

00:13:33   and stuff like that, many of the things

00:13:35   that you would run a Mac server for require

00:13:39   there to be some kind of application in user space

00:13:42   running to serve those tasks.

00:13:44   So the idea of running a Mac in some kind of server role

00:13:48   without a logged in user has never even occurred to me

00:13:50   to even think about.

00:13:51   - Yeah, I know that was not the answer

00:13:54   that you were looking for, Jason, and I'm sorry for that,

00:13:56   but that is the answer for us.

00:13:58   And if you happen to know how to do this,

00:14:00   I would be curious to hear.

00:14:01   It's not really solving a need that I have,

00:14:03   but I'd be curious to hear, so do write in and let us know.

00:14:06   And Jason as well.

00:14:08   Tom Myers asks, "Could you guys help explain why

00:14:10   a massively multi-core ARM Mac Pro,"

00:14:13   oh, nevermind, we don't have to talk about this.

00:14:14   Moving on.

00:14:15   (laughing)

00:14:16   Just kidding, just kidding.

00:14:16   - What did you get for not picking the questions?

00:14:18   - I actually meant to earlier today

00:14:20   and I got sidetracked at work and never did.

00:14:21   And actually, to be honest,

00:14:22   I'm curious to hear your answer to this, Jon.

00:14:24   So let me reread it.

00:14:25   "Could you guys help explain why a massively multi-core

00:14:27   ARM Mac Pro wouldn't be viable?

00:14:30   a 64 core, etc., A11X architecture, for example.

00:14:34   So it would be viable, but we've talked about this on the show before.

00:14:39   There's a couple of aspects to this. You know, so we all know that Apple makes really fast

00:14:43   system-mounted chips for their phones, and they make even faster ones that they use

00:14:47   in their iPads, and the number of cores in them has been increasing

00:14:50   from one, and now they're up to four in the phone.

00:14:54   Right? Is it four? I forget. It's, well, with the 8 series, it's now six.

00:14:58   You got the four slow ones and the two fast ones.

00:15:01   Yeah, anyway, that's a lot of cores.

00:15:03   That's more than they had before.

00:15:05   But as we discussed last time this came up,

00:15:09   to make something that doesn't,

00:15:11   you know, that's not like a little system on a chip

00:15:13   that takes iPad power, but instead takes 150 watts

00:15:16   or something like a, you know, a Xeon class CPU,

00:15:20   that's a very different kind of design.

00:15:23   You can't say, well, because we've made a chip for the iPad

00:15:26   that's faster than all of our laptops, right, or faster than our cheap laptops.

00:15:31   We've basically done all the work to make the Xeon class thing, and you haven't.

00:15:35   There's a lot more that goes into making a Xeon class CPU than just saying, "Oh, we have

00:15:39   a core and we'll just multiply it out."

00:15:41   It's not like a GPU where you just take the execution unit and just add more of them,

00:15:45   and even that gets more complicated.

00:15:47   There's tons of things having to do with I/O and PCI Express lanes and figuring out the

00:15:51   whole Thunderbolt thing and the various chipsets.

00:15:54   Not to mention all the multiple cores and the cache coherency and the ECC RAM and all

00:15:59   sorts of other things.

00:16:00   It's not to say that they couldn't do it.

00:16:03   I'm sure they would do an excellent job.

00:16:04   It's just to say that by having an iPad and phone chips, they haven't done all the work.

00:16:11   So if they wanted to make one, they could, but it's a lot of additional work.

00:16:17   And the question we've always had is, is it worthwhile for Apple to do all that additional

00:16:21   work to essentially compete with Xeon's for a line of computers that they sell very very

00:16:26   few of compared to anything else.

00:16:29   So maybe that's the answer to the viability question.

00:16:33   Technically viable, sure, but Apple would have to do a ton of work.

00:16:36   Financially viable, can Apple justify that ton of work?

00:16:39   Maybe they will eventually because, I mean, as people have been benchmarking the new iPhone

00:16:44   8 and 8 Plus against Mac laptops, like modern Mac laptops that you can buy right now that

00:16:49   that are not like last year's models

00:16:51   and seeing how fast the system on a chip is,

00:16:55   the case for ARM-powered Mac laptops

00:16:58   is getting stronger and stronger.

00:17:00   But the case for ARM-powered Mac Pros,

00:17:04   I mean, if Apple started this project four years ago

00:17:06   and has a Xeon-class ARM CPU waiting in the wings

00:17:09   for like next year's Mac Pro, then fine.

00:17:10   But if they haven't started that project now,

00:17:14   you're not gonna see one of these for a long time.

00:17:15   It would cost a lot of money.

00:17:17   It would take a lot of time.

00:17:19   And honestly, I feel like Intel does pretty well

00:17:24   in the high end, perhaps better than they do

00:17:26   in the low end and the laptop space.

00:17:28   So best case scenario, Apple makes something

00:17:30   that is some single to double digit percentage

00:17:33   faster than Intel.

00:17:35   And you don't really get a lot of extra points

00:17:37   for doing it with less power in, is the on class thing,

00:17:40   because you're not running them off battery.

00:17:42   Like the whole point of these machines

00:17:43   is they're plugged into the wall

00:17:44   and it's like a huge amount of power going into them

00:17:47   to power everything, the RAM, the GPU, the separate GPU,

00:17:52   the multiple GPUs and stuff like that.

00:17:54   So I think it's viable,

00:17:57   but it may not be financially the best thing for Apple to do

00:18:01   and they have a lot of work to do.

00:18:03   - I'm still super curious to see if,

00:18:06   to one day discover if we'll ever see

00:18:08   a ARM-based MacBook Pro.

00:18:11   Certainly Marco has thoughts about MacBook Pros these days.

00:18:14   I didn't actually put that in as a topic, but we can't talk about that if we want.

00:18:18   But just before we leave this, I would be super excited to see.

00:18:23   I think everybody would be.

00:18:24   Every computer nerd would be like, "Someone wants to compete with high-end CPUs with Intel?

00:18:30   That would be great."

00:18:31   And like I said, Apple has shown that it's got really good talent to make.

00:18:35   It's just a question of will.

00:18:36   Does Apple want to make a chip like this?

00:18:38   Because if they want to, I bet they could do a really good job and it would be super

00:18:41   super cool, but it still strikes me as one of those fantasies, like, you know, the Halo

00:18:47   car kind of fantasy of like, Apple's gonna make everything its own, and it's gonna

00:18:51   make a special computer that's faster than anybody else's, because they're gonna

00:18:54   make their own CPU. That would be super cool, but I just feel like it's still a pipe dream.

00:18:59   Let's—baby steps. Let's get a new Mac Pro sometime this century, and then we'll

00:19:04   think about putting a 64-core ARM chip in it.

00:19:08   Richard Ernie writes in and asks a disturbingly reasonable question.

00:19:14   And that question is, "How many iMac Pros do you think Marco will buy before the launch

00:19:19   of the Mac Pro?"

00:19:20   I have an answer.

00:19:21   I also have an answer.

00:19:23   Okay, what do you guys think the answer will be?

00:19:25   I feel like the answer should be one, because you will presumably buy the most expensive

00:19:34   and most ridiculous iMac Pro you possibly can in the way only Marco can do, and that

00:19:40   should be it.

00:19:41   But I fear you will somehow talk yourself into, "Oh, this one thing I really don't need

00:19:47   and/or will make it worse."

00:19:48   So like, as an example, the dual graphics card MacBook Pros.

00:19:52   I know there won't be a direct equivalent of that in the iMac Pro, but something along

00:19:55   those lines.

00:19:56   Well, I understand that the dual graphics card MacBook Pros are hypothetically better,

00:20:01   But they're better in ways that don't matter to me, so I won't get the maxed out top-of-the-line

00:20:05   MacBook Pro.

00:20:06   Instead, I'll get a different MacBook Pro.

00:20:09   So that is the one, I don't know, like wildcard.

00:20:12   If you somehow convince yourself that, "Oh, maybe I don't need the cranked to 11 version

00:20:18   of the iMac Pro," then I could see you in for two.

00:20:21   Because the first one will be the, "Oh, I don't need everything," and then you'll decide,

00:20:26   "Oh, that was a terrible mistake.

00:20:27   I need everything," and then you'll get the one you should have gotten in the first place.

00:20:30   Jon.

00:20:31   You're overthinking it but also underthinking it.

00:20:32   My answer to this is--

00:20:33   (laughing)

00:20:36   - What does that mean?

00:20:37   - Well, you'll see in a second.

00:20:39   So he's overthinking it because he's got his answer of one,

00:20:42   but then he's hedging and what about two, blah, blah,

00:20:44   but you're also underthinking it

00:20:45   and you're forgetting a very important factor.

00:20:47   When I read this question, I had an immediate answer

00:20:48   and the answer is he will buy two

00:20:50   before the launch of the Mac Pro.

00:20:51   Why will he buy two?

00:20:52   Because he'll get one because he's impatient

00:20:53   and he'll buy one for TIFF.

00:20:55   That's the answer.

00:20:56   - I did not even think about that.

00:20:57   You're right, you're right.

00:20:58   - So he's going to buy two iMac Pros before the Mac Pro.

00:21:01   You're right. That is the answer. So Marco, not that it matters because you're going to be wrong, but what do you think the answer is?

00:21:09   I think the answer is most likely to be one, but might be zero.

00:21:14   Oh, I call foul right now. Somebody mark this date down.

00:21:18   I said most likely one.

00:21:19   Alright, go ahead. Let him explain.

00:21:21   Okay. So in John way, I'll tell you that you're both right and wrong, and John is both wrong and right.

00:21:26   (laughs)

00:21:27   So the generous plan that would have me buying one

00:21:31   is I buy one for myself, when the Mac Pro comes out,

00:21:35   I give it to Tiff and I get myself a Mac Pro.

00:21:37   The case for maybe being zero,

00:21:41   it basically leads into the first topic

00:21:43   that we have on this list, which is labeled in the chat,

00:21:45   why is Marco on his MacBook Pro?

00:21:47   (laughs)

00:21:48   And the reason why is because my iMac has some issues

00:21:51   that I wanted to get repaired in the eight days left

00:21:55   in the warranty.

00:21:57   - Screen spiders.

00:21:58   - Good call.

00:21:59   - One of those is that the screen has image retention.

00:22:02   That is probably the biggest issue,

00:22:04   the issue that for long-term value

00:22:07   and the ability to sell it for a reasonable price

00:22:09   when I'm done with it, I wanna get that fixed.

00:22:12   Because the screen has a screen-only issue,

00:22:16   I am currently without my main desktop computer

00:22:19   for probably a week, maybe a little bit less if I'm lucky.

00:22:22   And that is horrible.

00:22:24   It's incredibly disruptive.

00:22:25   So I have, let me show you my desktop setup here.

00:22:28   I'll paste the link in the chat.

00:22:30   So the picture I've just shown you

00:22:31   is what I am podcasting on tonight.

00:22:33   - Oh my word.

00:22:34   - Are you the now mayor of Dongle Town as well?

00:22:38   I gotta wait for the picture to come in.

00:22:39   - This is tremendous.

00:22:41   - Oh, it's like the old times, you need some soda cans.

00:22:44   - Yeah, I'm currently very much not satisfied

00:22:49   with owning an iMac as my primary computer

00:22:51   because as much as I missed the crap out of it,

00:22:54   I really wish it was separate from the screen.

00:22:57   Because then, if something went wrong with the screen,

00:23:00   I could just get the screen fixed.

00:23:02   If something went wrong with the Mac Pro,

00:23:05   I could plug in a laptop to the screen on my desk

00:23:08   and use that as a stand-in desktop

00:23:10   while I got the desktop serviced.

00:23:11   - But you're not enough of a hardware hoarder

00:23:13   to have extra screens around.

00:23:14   So say it was separate

00:23:15   and you just had to get the screen repaired.

00:23:16   You'd have a headless computer with no screen

00:23:18   and you'd still have to use your laptop

00:23:20   is what are you gonna hook up the body of your computer to?

00:23:23   - Well, I could get another screen.

00:23:24   I could basically--

00:23:25   - You could overnight another screen, I forgot.

00:23:27   Buying solves everything, buying solves all problems.

00:23:29   - Order a new screen, get the other one fixed,

00:23:31   and that's harder to do when it's an iMac.

00:23:33   I'm not gonna buy a whole new iMac to use for a week

00:23:35   and then return it or sell it or anything.

00:23:37   - No, but you'd buy a new 5K monitor

00:23:39   for a thousand bucks, no problem.

00:23:41   - Maybe.

00:23:41   I'm losing a week of productivity here

00:23:45   using my laptop as my only computer

00:23:48   And like trying to do iOS development on this, it's crazy.

00:23:52   - Whoa, whoa, whoa, you're not losing a week.

00:23:55   You're not losing a week.

00:23:56   You are perfectly capable of being productive.

00:23:59   You're just, you're too fussy to want to do it.

00:24:01   - No, I am doing it.

00:24:02   Like I am powering through and doing it, but it sucks.

00:24:04   - Yeah, that's exactly, exactly.

00:24:06   - And it's at substantial reduction of productivity

00:24:09   to have-- - Totally, totally.

00:24:11   - To lose eight inches of screen space,

00:24:14   of screen diagonal too for a while.

00:24:16   So it's not great.

00:24:18   At times like this, I really make a mental note to say,

00:24:22   just buy the desktop next time.

00:24:23   Like just buy the Mac Pro next time.

00:24:25   So I really don't like the idea of spending a lot of money

00:24:30   on an iMac Pro that might potentially still have,

00:24:35   you know, that would still have this limitation

00:24:37   of like if anything goes wrong with it,

00:24:38   I lose everything for the time it takes to get it serviced.

00:24:42   Also, you know, the iMac is only three years old,

00:24:46   minus eight days, and it already has

00:24:49   like a few little annoying things about it,

00:24:52   and I can already see like, I might not want to use this

00:24:56   after the Mac Pro comes out.

00:24:58   And I'm assuming for this discussion

00:25:01   that the Mac Pro is probably coming out next summer.

00:25:03   And so if the Mac Pro comes out way later than that,

00:25:06   like if it ends up being 2019 or next winter,

00:25:09   like you know, this might change things.

00:25:11   but I might actually just get zero iMac Pros,

00:25:15   because the iMac Pro concerns me,

00:25:17   in the sense that it's really hard to get an iMac

00:25:20   to function well and be useful for 10 years.

00:25:24   John's Mac Pro is actually doing that,

00:25:27   and you're gonna pay the price of John's Mac Pro

00:25:31   for an iMac Pro.

00:25:32   You're gonna pay the Xeon tax,

00:25:35   you're gonna pay the Pro tax,

00:25:36   you're gonna, you are gonna pay, like,

00:25:38   what did they say, the base price was 5,000?

00:25:40   - $5,000, but you forget how cheap this was.

00:25:42   Even accounting for inflation, 10 years ago,

00:25:43   this was only like 20-some, 22, $2,300.

00:25:47   This was back when the Mac Pros were incredibly cheap

00:25:50   for what you got.

00:25:51   - Yeah, exactly, yeah, even with inflation,

00:25:53   you're coming out, I think, pretty far ahead with that.

00:25:55   And so, the Mac Pro, to me, you do pay a lot for it,

00:25:59   but they last pretty much indefinitely.

00:26:02   Like, they will last as long as you need them to last,

00:26:05   and if something does go wrong with them,

00:26:07   you have a much better chance of being able to

00:26:09   practically and economically service it yourself

00:26:11   down the road when it's out of warranty, et cetera.

00:26:13   And so the lifespan of a Mac Pro tends to be longer

00:26:17   than the lifespan of an iMac.

00:26:18   And I'm not considering the cylinder ones,

00:26:20   what I'm saying.

00:26:21   - Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

00:26:22   You're thinking of the old Mac Pros.

00:26:23   That's like, that's last decade thinking.

00:26:26   Like, okay, so that was the case.

00:26:28   But the most recent Mac Pro Apple has made,

00:26:30   none of those things are true about.

00:26:31   It was unreliable from the start.

00:26:33   It wasn't easy to repair yourself

00:26:35   and people aren't using them well for 10 years.

00:26:37   So I think you kind of have to take a wait

00:26:38   see and that maybe you won't have a choice of something that is big, reliable, easy to

00:26:45   repair, right?

00:26:46   Like, maybe that won't be one of your options.

00:26:47   Your option instead will be, you know, a faster, hopefully quieter and more powerful separate

00:26:54   screen thing, but that is just as unreliable as, you know, as any of the more recent Apple

00:27:00   hardware is and just as weird and flaky and the first generation has strange problems

00:27:04   and all that stuff.

00:27:05   I'm trying to be pessimistic, but like,

00:27:07   we're all kind of thinking like,

00:27:09   oh, the new Mac Pros will be like the old ones,

00:27:12   and the cylinder was an aberration,

00:27:13   and I think that's still an open question.

00:27:15   - Yeah, you're totally right, it is.

00:27:17   And I think the cylinder has taught them some lessons.

00:27:21   I would not expect a return to a giant tower,

00:27:24   but I would hope that it's maybe kind of something

00:27:27   in the middle there, like something between

00:27:29   a sealed up cylinder that you can do nothing to,

00:27:30   and some kind of interchangeable parts thing,

00:27:33   maybe whether it's a tower or not.

00:27:35   - Perhaps a magnesium cube.

00:27:37   - Yeah, right.

00:27:38   And so I'm not sure I wanna commit to an iMac.

00:27:41   Now if the Mac Pro was totally dead

00:27:43   and they said, okay, we're launching the iMac Pro,

00:27:46   the Mac Pro is discontinued,

00:27:47   we're never gonna make one again,

00:27:48   we're just doing the iMac Pro,

00:27:50   then this decision is easy, of course I would buy one.

00:27:52   But because there is a Mac Pro allegedly coming,

00:27:56   I wanna wait to see what that is first before I decide.

00:27:59   Because if it's closer to what I want

00:28:02   in having things separate and maybe having

00:28:05   even crazier CPU options and stuff like that, who knows.

00:28:08   If it's more what I want, I would choose that.

00:28:11   The other thing I'm worried about with the iMac Pro

00:28:13   is thermals.

00:28:15   This is a completely new thermal design that,

00:28:19   basically they are wedging much, much higher,

00:28:23   hotter, higher wattage, hotter running parts

00:28:27   inside of an enclosure that they didn't design

00:28:31   the size for.

00:28:34   Like, they took the size of the other iMac

00:28:36   and it seemed that they basically had as a design goal

00:28:39   fit these higher end, hotter parts inside of this case

00:28:43   that we designed for this other computer.

00:28:44   And while they seem to have done a lot of work

00:28:47   about the internal design of it

00:28:48   and dealing with the internal arrangement

00:28:50   of those thermals and everything,

00:28:52   the fact that they didn't design the external case for it,

00:28:55   that they basically said, you know, wedge this into that,

00:28:58   that is probably gonna have limitations

00:29:01   and side effects that I don't like.

00:29:03   So maybe things are gonna overheat and be bad over time.

00:29:07   That's another problem I have with my iMac

00:29:09   is that the GPU fan is now, or the GPU now runs too hot

00:29:12   and the fan goes up constantly

00:29:13   and it's audible in my recordings,

00:29:15   which is one of the reasons I finally got it fixed

00:29:17   because I can't have that.

00:29:19   And maybe that's because these parts in that case,

00:29:25   like I got top of the line parts when it was out,

00:29:27   so these are running pretty hot over three years

00:29:30   and eventually that starts to have problems with cooling.

00:29:32   And I fear whether the iMac Pro will have those problems

00:29:35   or not because you're taking these hot parts

00:29:38   and putting them into a case that is designed to be thin

00:29:41   for some reason even though nobody cares about how thick

00:29:43   their desktop display is on the back.

00:29:45   But it's designed to be thin rather than being designed

00:29:48   to hold pro components.

00:29:50   The Mac Pro Towers on the other hand,

00:29:52   with the exception of the cylinder of course,

00:29:53   although even the cylinder did have a really clever cooling

00:29:56   design that was really good as long as you didn't use

00:29:58   the GPUs.

00:30:00   but the Mac Pro towers were always like,

00:30:04   we're gonna design a complete enclosure,

00:30:07   a complete shape around being able to hold and cool

00:30:12   the entire range of high-end Pro parts

00:30:17   that we're gonna sell for this thing.

00:30:18   So I think it was always more likely

00:30:21   that there would be fewer problems with thermals

00:30:23   and things like that with the Mac Pro towers

00:30:26   than with the iMacs.

00:30:29   So I'm, again, like with the iMac Pro,

00:30:31   we still don't know how loud is it gonna be?

00:30:35   Like are the fans gonna spin up constantly

00:30:37   and be audible or not?

00:30:38   'Cause the Mac Pros are the same noise level

00:30:41   regardless of what they're doing, pretty much.

00:30:42   So like a Mac Pro, you know, you don't really hear it.

00:30:45   An iMac, you hear it if you push it.

00:30:48   And that's kind of ungraceful and it kinda suggests

00:30:50   thermals don't have a lot of headroom and everything else.

00:30:52   Now there was talk, there was a weird geek bench result

00:30:56   that may or may not be real, we don't really know.

00:30:58   people are believing that it might be real,

00:31:01   that might be the new iMac Pro CPUs,

00:31:03   and they were reporting that they were basically

00:31:07   an alternate version of the workstation class.

00:31:10   So, the Xeons, typically the highest performance Xeons

00:31:13   for desktops, they end in W for workstation

00:31:16   at the end of their model number,

00:31:18   and this usually means the absolute highest clock speed

00:31:22   for that core count that is available,

00:31:24   because it's gonna burn lots of power,

00:31:25   so it's not quite great for big server racks,

00:31:28   but it's gonna burn lots of power,

00:31:29   but it's gonna be really, really fast for a desktop

00:31:31   and it's gonna need a huge fan.

00:31:33   So those parts usually end in W.

00:31:35   The ones in Geekbench ended in WB, or just B, I think,

00:31:38   anyway, and they seem to be running at lower clock speeds

00:31:41   than what we'd expect.

00:31:43   Still good, still really fast,

00:31:45   but it looks like they might be having to use

00:31:47   lower wattage chips in these iMacs

00:31:50   than what a full Xeon workstation chip would be

00:31:53   in like a tower.

00:31:54   And that's most likely for thermal reads,

00:31:56   'cause those are 140 watt chips, 150 watt chips usually,

00:31:59   and an iMac chassis is usually designed to hold

00:32:02   I think like a 60 or 80 watt chip.

00:32:04   And yeah, again, they have redesigned the internals of this

00:32:07   to offer more cooling to fit higher wattage parts,

00:32:10   but they also need to leave room for the GPU.

00:32:12   And so there's, basically, we still don't know

00:32:17   what the trade-offs are to get workstation grade components

00:32:22   into an iMac Pro, into the same case size.

00:32:25   and I'm guessing the trade-offs are gonna be related

00:32:28   to fan noise under load and a possible heat ceiling

00:32:32   that might limit the range of performance

00:32:35   they can get out of those processors.

00:32:37   Whereas the full-blown Mac Pro that I hope will come out

00:32:41   sometime next year, that shouldn't have those limitations.

00:32:45   That should be able to use full wattage parts,

00:32:47   that should have a cooling system that has lots of headroom

00:32:49   and that can cool quietly under load.

00:32:52   I don't know if it will, but it should,

00:32:53   and because the previous ones did, all of them,

00:32:55   Even the 2013 had that.

00:32:56   So I hope the Mac Pro offers those things,

00:33:00   and if it does, that's the computer I wanna buy,

00:33:03   not the iMac Pro.

00:33:04   But because neither of these computers are out yet,

00:33:07   there's probably gonna be other factors that go into it.

00:33:10   So if possible, I hope that my iMac,

00:33:15   coming back from repair,

00:33:16   can last me until the Mac Pro comes out

00:33:19   so I can then decide then.

00:33:21   (laughing)

00:33:22   There's no way you will see that hot looking new iMac Pro

00:33:26   and say, "No thank you, I'll wait."

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00:35:08   - Also speaking of industrial design and cooling,

00:35:16   in one of the many interviews and books

00:35:18   that never seems to happen,

00:35:19   And if I could get like Johnny Ive and all of like John Rubenstein and all the people

00:35:25   together and ask them about like past Apple designs, I would love to know what changed

00:35:33   between like the, you know, nowadays and back when Apple made, you know, the cheese grater.

00:35:39   Because if you think about the cheese grater, and this is what I always hope that the new

00:35:42   Mac Pro design will be, but who knows what it will actually be.

00:35:45   The cheese grater, as you noted, and as Johnny Ive and his white world said, I think, in

00:35:50   the introduction for the original cheese grater, the Paramac G5, the design of it was not so

00:35:58   much like all the modern Johnny Ive, or not just Johnny Ive, but the modern Apple designs,

00:36:03   like by Johnny Ive's design team, where it's like, "We wanted to boil it down to its essence

00:36:08   and find, you know, uncomplicated, simple, direct, blah, blah, blah," all the things

00:36:13   they do for things that are like phones or portable things where they don't want a lot

00:36:16   of gigas hanging off it. Whereas the cheese grater was, we wanted to be honest about the

00:36:22   fact that the main job of this thing is to be a heat exchanger. Like it was modeled off

00:36:29   of heat exchangers or air exchangers like that are up in rooms that suck in air and

00:36:33   one temperature on one side and eject it out the other side a different temperature. I

00:36:37   think somebody said like the actual cheese grater was modeled off a heat exchanger. Right?

00:36:41   And so it wasn't designed to be the most sort of, well, you know, it was designed to be

00:36:49   true to its purpose, but its purpose wasn't to be a beautiful object, right?

00:36:54   Its purpose wasn't to be portable and uncomplicated and, you know, simple and obvious.

00:37:01   Its purpose was to exchange heat.

00:37:03   Like that was the purpose.

00:37:04   And so it was designed with that as a goal.

00:37:09   and it seems like so many things that Apple makes nowadays are designed with a

00:37:13   With a simplicity of form as a goal, which is a fine goal, especially for portable things

00:37:18   But as you said nobody really cares that much about the simplicity of form

00:37:23   like if a more honest iMac Pro on the back of it would have looked like the back of a

00:37:29   Transformer like it would look like a giant heatsink

00:37:32   it would have had bulges and flares and fins or would look like the underside of like a

00:37:36   Ferrari like all sorts of ground effects and like a diffuser like it would say the back of this computer is all about ejecting heat

00:37:44   Because honestly speaking what is the purpose of this computer? It's the iMac Pro

00:37:48   It's not the iMac that's simple and elegant just looks like a screen and you say where's the computer?

00:37:52   No, this is the iMac Pro

00:37:53   its job is to be the fastest possible all-in-one computer that human beings can make and

00:37:59   The main problem of a fast all-in-one computer is getting rid of the damn heat

00:38:04   So the back of it looks crazy and just as big and chunky and as heat, you know coming out the wazoo

00:38:10   And that's what the cheese grater is

00:38:12   It is a big giant thing cold air in front hot air out back

00:38:15   Gigantic fans nine fans Steve Jobs was raving or however many the original one had look at all these fans

00:38:20   They're all computer controlled to be just the right amount of cooling at the right

00:38:23   So they're not all running full blast all the time

00:38:25   You know, there is an elegance to it

00:38:27   But it is so purpose-built to like you house all that hot stuff and get it cooled

00:38:32   So I hope the Mac Pro is not like the trash camera. It's like what is the essence?

00:38:37   What a form of the Mac Pro like I want it to be

00:38:41   functional and the function is heat exchange and things whose function is heat exchange don't look like lozenges bars of soap or

00:38:50   simple elegant design

00:38:52   I mean in many respects that the chimney Mac Pro the trash can Mac Pro

00:38:55   Does have a purity of purpose cold air and bottom hot air out top just like the g4 cube, right?

00:39:01   But it was not designed to be like how much heat can we get rid of because they just had you know

00:39:07   The two GPUs there in the CPU and they couldn't even cool them well enough like so it was a clever design for its size

00:39:12   But it was very very small if you want to build something with a massive heat exchange and capacity you make it bigger

00:39:18   You want to have excess capacity not be right on the borderline. So

00:39:21   Anyway, getting back to what I said, I would ask them like it's like the same people who were there Johnny

00:39:26   I've made the cheese grater, but now he's making all these beautiful featureless things with no ports on them. What changed?

00:39:32   Surely it wasn't Steve Jobs saying please make me something that looks like the underside of a Ferrari, right?

00:39:37   So someone there was like, okay

00:39:39   Was like in the design brief

00:39:42   The main job of the thing that you are making is to be an efficient heat exchanger

00:39:46   Do that in the most elegant way that you can and I don't imagine Steve Jobs was forcing Johnny

00:39:51   I have to do that Steve Jobs probably wanted it to be like the trash can like he doesn't like all the big

00:39:55   you know, fins and holes all over the front and back and giant fans and stuff.

00:40:00   He just accepts that as a cost of doing business, but they did the best job they could with it.

00:40:03   But it's like the same people are there, but their philosophy has changed, and Apple has stopped making computers like that whose

00:40:10   purpose is not to be simple, obvious, white Apple pencil with no things on it and just this

00:40:17   beautiful, perfect form.

00:40:20   So anyway, when Johnny comes on the show, I'll ask him about it and see, like, has he changed his mind?

00:40:25   has his philosophy evolved? Was there someone forcing him to make those older computers

00:40:30   the way they were? Was someone forcing him to put all those ports on the side of his

00:40:34   laptops? Like, I don't know. So many questions. Johnny, come on the show. We'll talk.

00:40:38   Yeah, that's going to happen. No, I mean, I totally agree. And I wish Apple, you know,

00:40:45   like, you know, Apple is, you know, famously talked about courage to remove the headphone

00:40:49   jack and, you know, that and Apple is considered a very bold company for the courageous designs

00:40:55   they make. What they lack, it seems like in the hardware design to their computers, is

00:41:02   not courage, but confidence. They need the confidence to know that they can make something

00:41:11   that sacrifices visual symmetry for functionality. That doesn't take courage, it takes confidence,

00:41:18   because you have to be able to know in your head that even if the press says, "Oh, you

00:41:22   "Oh, it got thicker."

00:41:24   Or, "Wow, that iMac, it looks pretty thick from the back,"

00:41:28   or whatever.

00:41:29   Apple has to be confident enough to be able to say,

00:41:33   "We believe in our design because it is better that way.

00:41:37   "Even though you're saying it doesn't look as good,"

00:41:39   or whatever, "we know that it works better."

00:41:42   And it seems like they don't have that confidence anymore,

00:41:46   or it's not being properly enforced somewhere on the way

00:41:49   or something because a great computer,

00:41:53   nothing about its physical form should unnecessarily

00:41:57   detract from how great of a computer it can be.

00:42:01   And there are certain models in the lineup

00:42:02   where you'd make a different choice,

00:42:04   so things like the 12-inch MacBook,

00:42:06   where the whole role of this computer is

00:42:08   what is the absolute smallest, thinnest, lightest

00:42:11   computer we can make and have it still be remotely usable.

00:42:13   So then you make different trade-offs.

00:42:15   But as you go up the line, as you get more and more

00:42:17   to the larger and higher-end and pro machines,

00:42:21   and especially once you get into things like desktops,

00:42:23   which are kind of pro by nature

00:42:25   and have very different physical demands around them

00:42:27   and very different usage around them,

00:42:30   the decision always has to be made the other way of,

00:42:33   yeah, you know what, you can make it beautiful.

00:42:34   Have the confidence to know

00:42:36   that you can make a beautiful design

00:42:38   while still letting it function well

00:42:40   as the computer that it has to be.

00:42:42   And it seems like Apple doesn't have that confidence anymore

00:42:45   Or at least, or they don't have that ability anymore,

00:42:47   which is even more concerning.

00:42:49   - I understand your point, I deeply disagree,

00:42:53   and I think they're showing external confidence

00:42:56   by doing things like going all in on USB-C, right?

00:42:59   Because USB-C was not, it did not have

00:43:03   a terribly great story when the MacBook

00:43:06   and the MacBook Pros went all in on USB-C.

00:43:09   And it's gotten better, but as you recently wrote about--

00:43:12   - She was like, "The story isn't that great now."

00:43:14   No, no, no, that's exactly what I was gonna say. It's gotten better, but without question,

00:43:19   there's a long way to go. And I thought your post touched on that really well. Or I shouldn't

00:43:23   say touched on it, it handled it really well. So I think they're showing external confidence.

00:43:29   But with a few tweaks, I think what I would say is, it's the internal confidence that

00:43:35   they lack. It's the internal confidence for some designer or whomever to go to Johnny

00:43:41   and say, "You know what? Maybe we should make this a little thicker," or, "You know what?

00:43:46   Maybe more than one port on the MacBook Adorable would be useful," or, "You know what? Maybe

00:43:53   MagSafe wasn't so bad." And I think the problem is internal courage to stand up to whoever's

00:43:59   calling the shots on why it is these things are, as it appears to us, very crippled. Like,

00:44:08   They're great machines. I love my MacBook Adorable. I really do. But damned if it wouldn't be great if I

00:44:13   had one more port on it, you know, or damned if it wouldn't be great if I had MagSafe on it, because

00:44:17   just yesterday, I think it was, I ripped it off my nightstand. It was charging on my nightstand.

00:44:22   I caught the cable with my foot and it came flying off my nightstand. It's fine, thankfully, but...

00:44:29   Did it land in a pool of water?

00:44:31   No, it did not land in a pool of water, thank goodness. The water beds are not trendy, so

00:44:36   We were safe there.

00:44:37   God, can you imagine me with a waterbed?

00:44:38   That'd be terrible.

00:44:39   They still have their fans.

00:44:40   Well, in any case, the point I'm driving at is I think it's the internal confidence that's

00:44:44   a problem that nobody's standing up to Johnny or the mythical version of Johnny.

00:44:49   Who even knows if it's really Johnny anymore?

00:44:51   But the mythical Johnny who is saying, "No, this MacBook Adorable will have only one port.

00:44:56   No, these butterfly switches are the only way to go."

00:44:59   Whoever is making those decisions, be that an individual or a committee, I think it's

00:45:04   It's the lack of internal confidence to say to them, "No, this isn't right.

00:45:09   This isn't good enough.

00:45:11   We do need one more port on the adorable.

00:45:13   We do need better keyboard switches," or whatever the case may be.

00:45:18   I think that's where it's lacking.

00:45:20   Like I said, it's like, what is the design brief?

00:45:22   What is the goal here?

00:45:24   And I think the design philosophy and the goal for a lot of portal devices is very often,

00:45:30   don't have so much crap on it.

00:45:31   Don't have a million buttons.

00:45:32   Don't have a million ports.

00:45:34   It's easier to waterproof, it's simpler, it should look simple and obvious.

00:45:37   Having the front be all screen is a natural evolution of not having a hardware keyboard,

00:45:42   why not just have a screen and a single button on the front.

00:45:45   That kind of elemental simplicity is very appropriate for a certain class of devices

00:45:49   that Apple happens to sell a lot of.

00:45:51   Because you don't want a phone with a million things sticking out of it for most consumers.

00:45:56   It's supposed to be a thing that fits in your pocket and even laptops you can see an argument

00:45:59   for their laptop.

00:46:00   simpler when there's less stuff, when there's fewer moving parts, fewer seams.

00:46:06   Just compare the original aluminum PowerBook G4 to a current unibody one.

00:46:12   The design goals and evolution of that, I was trying to say, simplify, simplify, simplify,

00:46:16   has made a better portable computer because it flexes less, because it has fewer seams,

00:46:23   it has fewer things to go wrong on it, even the hinge is more robust and everything about

00:46:28   it is simpler and then that extending to start taking ports off and then you start to get

00:46:31   into you know I'm not quite sure about that but you can see kind of an argument for the

00:46:35   simplicity but where this goes awry is on things like the iMac Pro and certainly the

00:46:40   Mac Pro the story has to be different your goal has to be different you can't take that

00:46:46   same design philosophy that works for phones and tablets and possibly also laptops especially

00:46:52   the small ones and say this same design philosophy should apply to our professional modular computer

00:46:58   computer, because that's not what it's supposed to do.

00:47:01   As Marco said, professionals don't care what the hell the back of their desk, under-desk

00:47:06   mounted computer does.

00:47:08   Like it is supposed to fulfill a job, and its job is to be really fast and capable,

00:47:15   and being really fast and capable means ejecting heat and having a lot of room inside and being

00:47:20   reliable and stuff.

00:47:21   And if that's your goal, like these are the most important things.

00:47:26   It's got to be super reliable and just chunky and very powerful and like the maximum amount

00:47:33   of power and flexibility.

00:47:35   You design a different thing.

00:47:36   I start thinking of things like power tools or off-road vehicles, not like cars that you

00:47:43   buy, but like actual like, you know, getting around on the farm or going through the jungle

00:47:47   or whatever.

00:47:48   Those things, they can be elegant and have nice designs, but they have a job to do and

00:47:53   their design is entirely focused around that job.

00:47:55   and is trying to say, can we get huge ground clearance in this off-road vehicle, but not

00:48:03   have like a big gap between the wheels and the wheel well? Like, could we cover that over with

00:48:07   something? Like, could we make it so that like, that we have like a skirt that when the wheels

00:48:12   compress, the skirt moves up so it looks more elegant? It's like, what are you even doing?

00:48:16   Are you trying to make this car look like a low slung, you know, Tesla? Like, the whole point is

00:48:22   it's supposed to go off-road. It's like, yeah, but it's so ugly when you can see all the suspension

00:48:25   bits and you can see all this air under the car. I want that skirt idea. We can make the

00:48:29   skirt work. It's like, no, don't try to make the skirt work. Like just huge amounts of

00:48:34   travel and big exposed springs and shocks. And don't worry about the skirt. Don't worry

00:48:38   about like the big gap. That's what it's supposed to do. Just make the best off-road vehicle

00:48:43   you can make. That's what I want them to do with the Mac Pro. And the iMac, it's like,

00:48:49   it has to be just as slim as the regular iMac. Why? Why would you make it just as slim as

00:48:53   the regular iMac, yeah maybe you can, we're all so smart with our cooling, like you already

00:48:57   have the iMac, the iMac is oh I don't even know where the computer is, it's so skinny,

00:49:01   and we got rid of the optical drive so we can make it even thinner and the edges look

00:49:04   beautiful and elegant and it does and I think an all in one computer that is very thin and

00:49:07   elegant and has a beautiful screen is a product they should make and they do, it's the 5K

00:49:10   iMac, it's great.

00:49:11   When they go to make the iMac Pro, why is it like design brief hasn't changed, yet supposed

00:49:15   to be like the fastest computer you could buy, especially remember as I pointed out

00:49:18   before, they weren't going to make the Mac Pro, the iMac Pro was going to be their top

00:49:22   of the line and still they said it's got to fit in the same case and that that's what's

00:49:26   wrong like they have the wrong goal even before they begin executing and I don't I don't know

00:49:32   where that comes from I don't know why that philosophy is extended maybe it's they just

00:49:35   think all technology should be like that but they didn't always think like this and the

00:49:38   cheese grater Mac Pro is the the perfect proof Johnny I've made that computer and talked

00:49:43   about it his team made that thing and it is perhaps the most brutally utilitarian thing

00:49:49   that Apple has ever made. It's a big silver heat exchanger with freaking handles on it

00:49:53   with a huge amount of space in it. That's what I want. I want, I mean not that exact

00:49:57   design but I want that philosophy executed well.

00:50:00   Yeah and the thing is like that, like that giant metal tower full of fans and everything

00:50:07   and ports in the back and huge air holes in the front and back, that thing is beautiful.

00:50:13   That is the nicest PC tower I've ever seen, bar none.

00:50:18   It's not even close.

00:50:19   And for people who love computers

00:50:21   and who need high-end pro computers, that is beautiful.

00:50:26   You don't have to make it ugly.

00:50:29   People who look at that and say, "That's ugly?"

00:50:32   are people who hate computers.

00:50:34   It seems like the people who were responsible

00:50:36   for designing computers at Apple hate computers.

00:50:40   And I don't say this lightly.

00:50:42   What I mean to say here is literally that

00:50:45   it seems like the computers at Apple are designed

00:50:48   with the goal of hiding and getting rid of

00:50:50   as much of the computer as possible.

00:50:52   And there is a place for that, again,

00:50:54   there's a place for that in like the ultra thin and light,

00:50:57   the MacBook 12 inch and everything,

00:50:59   and even maybe the Airs, although we're going backwards

00:51:02   in that direction as well in the Air range.

00:51:05   But at the high end, you are selling to people

00:51:09   who need computers, and in many cases, who love computers.

00:51:13   And those people don't want you to hide everything away,

00:51:19   especially when it comes at the cost

00:51:21   of practicality and functionality.

00:51:23   Those people are happy to see the computer.

00:51:27   We are happy to have ports and air holes

00:51:31   and a little bit more thickness in order to get

00:51:33   a better keyboard or better battery life or something else.

00:51:37   that market isn't trying to get rid of the computer,

00:51:41   they're buying a computer.

00:51:42   They like computers.

00:51:44   And the pros want to see,

00:51:47   like the pros want a pro piece of gear.

00:51:50   The people who buy the giant off-road vehicles

00:51:53   are not looking at them and saying,

00:51:55   man, this thing's so ugly, it's a shame

00:51:57   no one can make these things prettier.

00:51:58   No, they love the way they look.

00:52:00   They buy them because of the way they look partially

00:52:02   and their functionality as well,

00:52:04   some people just for the looks, but you know,

00:52:06   Like, so to make a honking Mac Pro tower

00:52:09   that's full of high powered,

00:52:12   the best components they can make,

00:52:14   you know, cooled with giant slow fans

00:52:17   so they can be really efficient and really quiet

00:52:19   even under a load, that is beautiful.

00:52:22   And that is good design for a high end Pro computer.

00:52:25   What they seem to be doing now instead

00:52:28   is applying the wrong design principles to,

00:52:31   like you know, what John said,

00:52:32   like what these tools are here to do,

00:52:35   they're applying the same principles

00:52:37   as they're applying to the ultra-thin

00:52:39   12 inch ultra-portable, that's not good design.

00:52:43   Design is how it works.

00:52:45   A famous guy said that once.

00:52:47   Design is taking the requirements that the people have

00:52:51   who are going to use this thing

00:52:53   and making something that works well with those requirements

00:52:57   and also hopefully looks decent in the process.

00:53:00   But design is about those requirements

00:53:02   and how you literally design the work to accommodate those.

00:53:07   So what they're doing when they make a pro computer

00:53:12   that has massive practical problems

00:53:14   when used professionally or when used by anybody,

00:53:17   that's actually bad design, no matter how it looks.

00:53:22   And so they really need, I think, to shift this thinking,

00:53:25   and I hope they have with the Mac Pro,

00:53:27   they really need to shift this thinking back into,

00:53:30   it is okay to make a computer that looks like a computer.

00:53:35   There is nothing wrong with having a high-end pro desktop

00:53:40   that's probably gonna cost like $8,000

00:53:43   to have that be a little bit bulky

00:53:45   and to have that go under your desk

00:53:48   and to have that look like a square with ports in the back

00:53:50   and fans in the back, that's fine.

00:53:54   That's actually what people want.

00:53:56   And to those people, if that is designed well,

00:54:00   It will be beautiful no matter how it looks.

00:54:03   They could have a design like a Star Trek spaceship.

00:54:06   Like it can be cool, but it has to be fulfilling its job and its job is to eject heat and hold

00:54:12   lots of things and be super fast.

00:54:13   And it's just you end up with a different shape.

00:54:15   You end up with a different everything about it.

00:54:17   There's lots of options available, lots of things I'm imagining.

00:54:21   Where it gets fuzzier I think, and I was thinking about this when I was looking at the bunch

00:54:24   of laptops around the table at work.

00:54:26   A lot of people at work now have the same thing I have, the 2017 MacBook Pro with its

00:54:31   four little USB-C/Thunderbolt 3 ports all around the sides of it.

00:54:36   But then other people still have the 2015 ones like an earlier, right?

00:54:40   And honestly when they're all sitting around the table like that, other than the fact that

00:54:43   the new ones are space gray for the most part, they don't look that different.

00:54:48   You can tell that the new ones are thinner and the screens are nicer, right?

00:54:52   But the other ones don't look that bad.

00:54:53   But I look at the sides of the other ones and like they don't look that much thicker,

00:54:57   but then I see SD card, HDMI port, MagSafe, USB-A.

00:55:05   And I think again, we talked about this when they did the Mac roundtable and I was like,

00:55:09   but they said, didn't they say something about maybe they'll be reconsidering their choices

00:55:14   with the MacBook Pros and coming out with new ones that appeal to people more.

00:55:19   And I kept thinking like, that maybe in the future they would reconsider their decisions

00:55:24   and like put an SD card slot on it or like just make different decisions about ports

00:55:28   and stuff like that.

00:55:29   Sort of backpedal on the, you know, relentless simplification on their biggest laptop.

00:55:38   I'm not expecting them to make a keyboard that's not the same size as the small ones,

00:55:41   you know.

00:55:42   I'm not going crazy here, but I'm just saying like the utility of like, I think a lot of

00:55:46   of people are jealous at work of the people who come in with the old laptops and just

00:55:49   plug their thing right into the projector with no dongles, right? Or that, you know,

00:55:56   MagSafe are ripping the thing in and out and they get up from their desk and stuff. And

00:56:01   maybe they're also jealous of me with my single wire connecting with all the other stuff,

00:56:05   so there's advantages to Thunderbolt as well, but like, I think of it this way. If they

00:56:10   came out with the new MacBook Pro that had an SD card and HDMI on it, a lot of people

00:56:17   would love it. And I'm trying to think who would hate it. The people like, "I don't want

00:56:23   that additional complexity, I never use HDMI." Would they hate it? Would they just be like,

00:56:27   "Oh, whatever, I don't care, I don't use those ports." Like, who would really hate it, other

00:56:32   than saying, "You've just mucked up my perfect, clean, symmetrical design," but I don't think

00:56:36   people who buy them care that much about it. And the people who would love it, boy would

00:56:40   they love it. So in this new Mac Renaissance of where we all believe Apple's turned a corner

00:56:45   on the Mac and is paying more attention to it and is going to make a Mac Pro and they're

00:56:48   making the iMac Pro and they're doing all these things, I'm waiting to see how far does

00:56:52   the Mac Renaissance go. We know it goes far enough that they revived the line of computer

00:56:57   that they weren't going to do. So that's great. I love it. And that gives me hope for everything

00:57:00   else but the real test may be what happens to the 15-inch do they go more

00:57:07   utilitarian in any way do any ports come back is there any recognition that some

00:57:16   decisions made with the current line of computers may not be exact even if it's

00:57:20   the keyboard which is a topical conversation this week which I may or

00:57:23   may not to get to in the show do they change their thinking on the keyboard

00:57:28   and say, "We need to take another run at this in a big way."

00:57:31   Even if the new keyboard is just as thin as the old one,

00:57:34   to just have a different philosophy of saying like,

00:57:36   you know, we need to rethink this.

00:57:40   Like, how much are they willing to reconsider

00:57:42   on the models that are, you know, are not the,

00:57:47   I was gonna say are not the very, very top end,

00:57:49   but the 15 inches, they're top end.

00:57:50   - Yeah. - Right?

00:57:51   How much are they willing to reconsider?

00:57:53   And I'm still maintaining fantasies

00:57:56   that they're going to be willing to reconsider a lot,

00:57:59   that the new Mac Pro will be the giant purpose-built

00:58:02   heat exchanger that I was describing,

00:58:04   that the iMac Pro really will be amazingly fast

00:58:08   and competent even if it isn't the same case,

00:58:10   and that the new line of laptops,

00:58:11   like we'll see that they're learning from their mistakes

00:58:14   and they make different decisions about it,

00:58:16   and they can make a big deal out of it,

00:58:17   like we heard you, we know you don't want as many dongles,

00:58:21   so now there's HDMI and an SD card,

00:58:23   or whatever they decide.

00:58:26   That would be a huge applause line.

00:58:28   Tons of people would love it.

00:58:29   It would make the computers more popular.

00:58:32   Some people would be disappointed that it's not as simple,

00:58:34   but how many?

00:58:35   How many who don't work in the sealed off

00:58:37   frosted glass area with Johnny Ive

00:58:39   would actually be disappointed by those computers?

00:58:42   Yeah.

00:58:42   So, Johnny Ive, come on the show.

00:58:44   We're waiting for you.

00:58:45   (upbeat music)

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01:00:20   (upbeat music)

01:00:22   By the way, there was one thing about that picture

01:00:25   I posted about my setup that you appeared

01:00:28   not to have noticed.

01:00:29   - Your glass of water?

01:00:30   - Jon, how many dongles do I have?

01:00:33   - Uh, I don't know, there's a whole,

01:00:35   some of them are black and some of them are white,

01:00:37   so I can't really tell.

01:00:38   I gotta zoom in.

01:00:39   Am I at 100% on this?

01:00:40   Let's see, zoom in, I see.

01:00:41   - Jon, what shape are my arrow keys?

01:00:44   - Oh, they're not full size.

01:00:45   Is that the, yeah, the screen's different.

01:00:47   from the screen boards that's 2015 yes it is but you do you still have a dongle

01:00:52   is that Ethernet yeah yeah Thunderbolt Ethernet and then you've got the mag safe

01:00:57   what is the black thing coming out optical audio optical audio it doesn't

01:01:02   exist in the new ones but does exist on my iMac the trackpad is smaller and the

01:01:06   little cut out where you're the finger thing where you reach in to get the lip

01:01:09   to open it up is actually not as wide as well I believe anyway yeah now you do

01:01:13   Do you have a 20, I can't keep track of what laptops

01:01:17   you have, do you still have a 2016 or 17?

01:01:19   - I do, but not for long.

01:01:21   I'm going to sell it.

01:01:22   - All right, and where did this 15 come from?

01:01:23   Is this just one of your old ones

01:01:24   or did you buy another one?

01:01:25   - eBay.

01:01:26   - eBay, can't you just buy these directly from Apple now?

01:01:28   - You can, they still sell them.

01:01:30   Yeah, they still sell them brand new.

01:01:32   This one was, this is the base CPU, the 2.2

01:01:36   with the 512 SSD, which I basically,

01:01:38   I required a bigger SSD.

01:01:40   When I actually had one of these in 2015,

01:01:44   it was only the 256 SSD and it killed me.

01:01:47   One of the reasons I had to upgrade was just

01:01:50   because I just kept slamming into that.

01:01:51   'Cause once you're doing iOS development,

01:01:54   you need a ton of disk space to keep up with

01:01:57   all the betas and everything else.

01:01:59   So anyway, so 512 SSD, everything else is based on it.

01:02:03   And it has AppleCare because it was bought

01:02:07   in September of 2016, like a month before

01:02:10   the new ones came out, so it has AppleCare 'til 2019,

01:02:14   the battery only had 50 cycles on it,

01:02:16   and it was 1600 bucks.

01:02:18   To get the same thing new from Apple with AppleCare

01:02:21   would be $2800.

01:02:22   - Oof.

01:02:23   - So I decided to go used on it,

01:02:25   and it's totally great, because, so here's,

01:02:28   basically what happened here is

01:02:29   my plan of getting the 2017 15 inch

01:02:36   and using it all summer at the beach,

01:02:37   and then bringing it home, and bringing the LG 5K home,

01:02:40   and using that as my desktop until the Mac Pro comes out,

01:02:43   that plan ended up being just not working for me,

01:02:46   because it ends up the 15-inch is not a great desktop.

01:02:49   It can serve as one with the LG display.

01:02:52   It can be a desktop, but it's not a very good desktop.

01:02:55   I would rather use my three-year-old iMac

01:02:58   that is purpose-built for that

01:02:59   than use the weird clamshell and everything else.

01:03:04   So, I'm just gonna try to keep using my iMac.

01:03:07   And, you know, I gave these butterfly keyboards a year.

01:03:12   I first had a 2016 Touch Bar, 15 inch,

01:03:15   sold it, switched to the MacBook Escape,

01:03:17   sold that to my Curly, and switched back to this this summer

01:03:21   when I had this harebrained desktop idea.

01:03:25   I gave this keyboard a year.

01:03:27   I've had the 2016 version and the 2017 version.

01:03:31   They're all just incredibly incompatible with me.

01:03:35   I thought I'd get used to it, I didn't.

01:03:38   I hated every single minute of typing on it.

01:03:40   Every single time I would think to use that computer,

01:03:43   I would be kind of, it would turn me off

01:03:46   from wanting to use my laptop to have that keyboard there

01:03:50   because every single time I typed on that keyboard,

01:03:54   I hated it.

01:03:55   And every time I said, you know, maybe everyone's right

01:03:57   and I'll get used to it, and I gave it a year, people,

01:04:01   and I didn't get used to it.

01:04:03   And every time I would see someone else's,

01:04:06   like John, what you were just saying

01:04:08   about the conference room,

01:04:09   every time I would see someone else's 2015 era,

01:04:12   13 or 15 inch Redmi MacBook Pro,

01:04:15   I would be like, oh man, I wish I never sold mine.

01:04:18   I like that so much better.

01:04:20   Eventually, and I started browsing eBay,

01:04:21   I'm like, you know what, these are not that expensive.

01:04:24   To get one that's very lightly used,

01:04:26   these are really pretty inexpensive,

01:04:28   and I can sell the one I have

01:04:30   for probably like $2,800.

01:04:32   And so I waffled about it for a while and I was worried.

01:04:35   I'm like, is it gonna feel really old?

01:04:38   Am I gonna regret losing USB-C?

01:04:42   Am I going to regret that it's bigger and heavier?

01:04:46   Is everything gonna feel and look old?

01:04:49   And I'm gonna feel like I'm stepping back into the past.

01:04:52   My impression of this has quite surprised me, actually.

01:04:55   Nothing about it feels bigger or heavier.

01:04:58   It is, but it's such a small difference

01:05:01   that honestly when you go the other direction,

01:05:04   you don't really notice it.

01:05:06   It's a half pound heavier,

01:05:09   and it's a couple of millimeters wider

01:05:10   in each dimension or something like that.

01:05:12   It's not that much different.

01:05:14   For all the crazy things we gave up

01:05:19   to go to the super thin USB-C models,

01:05:23   it didn't actually get that much thinner

01:05:24   or that much lighter.

01:05:26   So, oh, and the battery life is better on 2015, by the way.

01:05:29   On this used 2015 model, the battery life is better

01:05:32   than my almost new 2017 model.

01:05:34   And not by a small amount either.

01:05:36   So, because, surprise, the battery is 20,

01:05:39   or actually 33% bigger.

01:05:41   So, it's, that actually matters, you know,

01:05:44   even with an older processor.

01:05:46   So anyway, you don't notice the size difference

01:05:49   when you go the other direction.

01:05:52   I did not notice the loss of the trackpad size.

01:05:55   I did not, like I, you just immediately adjust.

01:05:59   In fact, it's actually easier because now

01:06:01   there's no more accidental trackpad input

01:06:02   when you brush against it.

01:06:04   I did not notice the loss of the touch bar

01:06:06   because I always hated it and never really

01:06:07   got into using it.

01:06:09   I occasionally miss touch ID, but not much.

01:06:12   I love having the arrow keys back to the way they were

01:06:16   because I can feel them.

01:06:18   Because you need arrow keys that have a different shape

01:06:20   than the rest of the keys because they are far away

01:06:23   from the home row, so when you reach over to them,

01:06:26   you are not as precise as you would be

01:06:29   with keys near the home row,

01:06:30   because you're moving your hand a little bit.

01:06:32   So you need there to be some kind of tactile feedback

01:06:36   so you can feel where the right keys are

01:06:38   in order to hit the right one.

01:06:40   That's why the new generation arrow keys

01:06:43   that have no metal gap in them

01:06:45   and that are all the same height

01:06:47   are so easy to hit the wrong one on,

01:06:49   because your hand is moving over there

01:06:51   and has nothing to anchor itself

01:06:53   based on feel.

01:06:54   So the AR keys in this are perfect, they feel wonderful.

01:06:57   The rest of the keyboard is perfect and feels wonderful.

01:07:00   For about a second it felt mushy and then it felt great.

01:07:04   So that took no adjustment time.

01:07:06   The ports are luxurious.

01:07:09   I got to remove, oh jeez, I mean a whole bag full of stuff

01:07:14   from my travel bag.

01:07:15   Like I got to remove so much crap, so many dongles.

01:07:20   My entire dongle bag is now just in storage

01:07:23   until I have to switch back to a USB-C sometime in the future.

01:07:26   So that's, like, my travel bag is so simple.

01:07:29   It's just the laptop and a power adapter

01:07:31   and a couple of the USB cables

01:07:33   that I was already bringing before

01:07:35   because nothing else in the world is USB-C.

01:07:37   So, like, I was already traveling

01:07:39   with USB to Lightning cables

01:07:41   so I could plug them into hotel,

01:07:42   you know, lamp tables and stuff.

01:07:44   So I'm just using those now to travel with.

01:07:47   And the computer and the power cable.

01:07:50   That's it.

01:07:51   I don't need an SD card reader.

01:07:52   I don't need any dongles, I don't need any hubs

01:07:55   and HDMI adapters and everything, it just works.

01:08:00   And it's all built in, and it looks great,

01:08:02   and it feels great, and it feels like a computer

01:08:06   that was designed for use, not a computer

01:08:11   that I have to adapt myself to it.

01:08:14   This computer was designed for me to use it,

01:08:17   and I am just so much happier.

01:08:21   The only thing I miss about the new one,

01:08:24   I don't miss the thinness, I don't miss the lightness,

01:08:26   I don't miss the space gray,

01:08:28   because by the way, the space gray,

01:08:30   you know, that's a very fragile coating,

01:08:32   and that'll chip pretty easily

01:08:33   if you even nick it a little bit.

01:08:35   The only thing I miss, surprisingly,

01:08:38   is I actually kind of miss having USB-C for power.

01:08:44   Even though I don't miss the USB-C brick

01:08:46   that doesn't have the little cable management wings,

01:08:48   It is nice to be able to use other third party chargers.

01:08:52   So for example, like the Anker 60 watt thing that I have,

01:08:57   it would be like, it's nice to use that.

01:08:59   It would be nice to be able to use USB-C batteries

01:09:02   if I needed to on a plane.

01:09:04   But ultimately, that isn't that much of a problem

01:09:06   because this thing has a 99.5 watt hour battery in it.

01:09:11   It's a pretty big battery.

01:09:13   The battery life is pretty good.

01:09:15   I probably won't ever need a battery in practice.

01:09:18   It's just great.

01:09:21   It doesn't feel noticeably slow.

01:09:22   It doesn't, like there's nothing,

01:09:23   there's no other downsides to it.

01:09:25   And in fact, when you buy an old one off of eBay,

01:09:28   not only do you save a ton of money,

01:09:29   all the accessories cost way less

01:09:31   than they did when they were new.

01:09:32   So like, I, long ago I got rid of my

01:09:35   Thunderbolt to Ethernet adapter,

01:09:36   because I thought I would never use it again.

01:09:37   So I had to buy a new one to use Ethernet here at home

01:09:39   for this, 'cause that's how I like to run my computers.

01:09:42   And you know, I think when it was new,

01:09:44   it was like 30 or 40 or 50 bucks.

01:09:47   I got one on eBay new for like, I think $19.

01:09:52   I have another power adapter,

01:09:54   an extra power adapter coming tomorrow.

01:09:56   Also new that was $30.

01:09:59   Like, it's just great.

01:10:02   I think there's a reason they still sell this.

01:10:06   Because it's a fantastic computer

01:10:08   that I bet a lot of people are still buying.

01:10:10   It's just great, I'm so happy with it.

01:10:13   and I hope that I can use it until they make a computer

01:10:16   that actually is better for me.

01:10:18   - I have thoughts. - Of course you do.

01:10:22   - So first of all, this is the epitome

01:10:27   of different strokes for different folks, right?

01:10:28   Because I have basically this machine as a work machine,

01:10:33   and we are still buying or really leasing

01:10:36   this machine brand new for incoming employees,

01:10:40   incoming engineers.

01:10:41   We do not have a Touch Bar Mac that is being issued by my company yet.

01:10:47   I forget the reasoning behind it, but it basically boils down to it provides little to no benefit,

01:10:54   so why bother?

01:10:57   Every time I'm away from my desk and away from my wireless Magic keyboard and have to

01:11:02   type on my work laptop's keyboard, I hate it.

01:11:08   God do I hate it.

01:11:09   mushy, it's sloppy, and it just feels friggin' gross. And it's funny to me because you have

01:11:16   the exact same opinion but the other direction. In that we are like polar opposites on this.

01:11:23   And you know what? That's fine. Everyone has an opinion. That's okay. What works for you

01:11:27   is great. What works for me is great. And that's fine. But it's funny to me that you

01:11:33   prefer this so heavily, particularly the keyboard. Like the rest of it, yeah, that makes sense.

01:11:38   particularly the keyboard. I'm surprised you prefer it that much. My question for you though is,

01:11:43   what's your long game on this? Like, you're just going to pull a Syracuse and run this until you

01:11:48   can't get whatever ridiculous California code name is, like three or four versions from now? Like,

01:11:52   what is the long game? Because eventually, I reckon you're either—so there's only a couple

01:11:58   of ways to go, right? You use this until you can't anymore, and then you're going to have

01:12:02   have to figure out a new plan. You wait for Apple to have an "oops, we're sorry,"

01:12:08   which to be fair is certainly possible, but not exactly their style.

01:12:13   And I would say unlikely. Yeah, an unlikely. And I feel like I had a

01:12:18   third but I lost it. But you see what I'm saying? Like, you just go to, I guess you

01:12:21   buy a Lenovo? Like, you know, what is the long play for you then?

01:12:26   I mean, I could hackintosh it with someone else's laptop, but no, I mean, the long-term

01:12:29   play here is I hope this lasts me long enough that I either stop caring about having a good

01:12:35   laptop, stop needing a good laptop, or Apple starts making better ones. Simple as that.

01:12:41   I mean, I hope it lasts that long. If not, I'm going to have to figure something else

01:12:46   out. It could be next summer they might release a new one that I like and that I switch to

01:12:50   that. I have no idea. But honestly, I think that would be too soon. That would seem very

01:12:56   very unlikely to me.

01:12:57   My long term plan here is,

01:13:00   like when the scroll direction changed in Mac OS,

01:13:04   whenever that, which I'm on, was that like,

01:13:07   Lion or something?

01:13:08   It was a while ago now.

01:13:10   - Yeah, maybe even earlier than that.

01:13:11   - Yeah, so when the scroll direction changed,

01:13:14   I thought, you know,

01:13:16   they have an option to keep it the other direction,

01:13:19   but we know how Apple is.

01:13:21   There's only gonna be a limited time

01:13:23   that that option's gonna be there,

01:13:25   so I might as well get used to the new one now and switch.

01:13:28   So I switched immediately, hated it,

01:13:31   gave it like a few days, still hated it,

01:13:34   and I switched back.

01:13:35   And I thought, you know what,

01:13:36   there might come a time where I don't have

01:13:38   this choice anymore, but that time hasn't come yet.

01:13:41   So let me just enjoy the way I like it

01:13:43   while I still have the choice.

01:13:45   And then when the time comes,

01:13:47   it forces me to make a choice I wanna make,

01:13:49   I'll deal with it then.

01:13:51   So that's kind of my philosophy with this.

01:13:53   This is not a sustainable plan

01:13:55   I just keep using the 2015 MacBook Pro forever.

01:13:57   Obviously, that's not a sustainable plan.

01:13:59   But I don't need to give it up right now.

01:14:02   I am way happier with this laptop right now

01:14:05   than I am with the 2017 model.

01:14:07   And so I can use this for probably a while.

01:14:11   I'm probably going to want to move to something else

01:14:13   before I'm forced to move to something else.

01:14:15   And so I might as well enjoy this while I can.

01:14:19   While it is still great,

01:14:20   while it is still competitive and useful and works great,

01:14:24   When the time comes, for whatever reason,

01:14:27   that stops being the case, then I'll figure it out then.

01:14:31   - Real time follow up, it was Lion by the way,

01:14:33   where they added the feature.

01:14:34   - Oh right.

01:14:35   - And I am still, I still have that

01:14:38   in the non-default setting as well, because I--

01:14:41   - Wait, wait, the two of you are saying

01:14:43   that you are not on natural scrolling?

01:14:45   You're on the scrolling from the 80s?

01:14:47   - Old school. - Yeah.

01:14:48   - Yes.

01:14:49   - Oh my word, you're so old.

01:14:50   The two of you, I'm so disappointed in you.

01:14:53   You're so old!

01:14:54   There's no reason to change it.

01:14:58   I didn't even try to get used to the new way because they gave you an option from day one

01:15:03   to not do that.

01:15:04   I'm like, "Oh, it's not even a PLS hack.

01:15:06   It's a GUI option.

01:15:07   Uncheck, never think about it again."

01:15:09   And they've sustained that.

01:15:11   It's still there.

01:15:12   Still, you can do the opposite way, and so that's the way I like it.

01:15:16   I also remapped command-n to the new folder because I've been doing that since I was 10

01:15:20   years old and there's a feature in the operating system that lets you assign keyboard shortcuts

01:15:24   to any menu in any application and it's a supported thing so of course I'd do it.

01:15:28   Like I don't see why I wouldn't.

01:15:30   That's part of a computer being a computer.

01:15:32   That's what separates us from the multi-pad mongrels, right?

01:15:37   You don't like the keyboard shortcut?

01:15:41   Guess what?

01:15:42   I can reassign it and not by hacking something.

01:15:45   It's a feature of the operating system.

01:15:46   There's a workflow for that.

01:15:47   It's system preferences.

01:15:48   You just go there and type like it's a real thing anyway

01:15:51   Yeah, and I kind of feel the same way about scroll direction like if forced I am you know

01:15:57   They take it away and there's no p-list hack or whatever

01:15:59   I probably won't go to heroic links to get it back, but I might grumble but uh, you might grumble

01:16:05   yeah, I think Marcos plan is mostly sustainable because

01:16:09   like I again I still

01:16:13   keep thinking perhaps wrongly that we are in the beginnings of a Mac Renaissance and that

01:16:19   It's gonna take a while because computers take a long time like the pipeline is long, but that Apple is indeed

01:16:26   reconsidering some of its broad decisions about how it makes Macs and so the new keyboard that has more travel and

01:16:35   Is more reliable and is more pleasing to people who don't like the new one and is only on the 15-inch model or whatever

01:16:42   That's not coming like anytime soon

01:16:45   But if they start on it now in three years, it will be here and that's you know, like them reconsidering

01:16:52   How they build their computers and what people want out of them like satisfying Mac users again that Mac roundtable

01:16:59   Everything they said in that Mac roundtable was essentially

01:17:02   We hear you

01:17:04   We've realized we've been doing things in the wrong way and we're going to change course and try to do them in the right way

01:17:09   Like the way that will make everybody happy starting with hey the Mac Pro we were gonna get rid of it

01:17:15   We didn't think it was necessary. But actually it is how far that goes. I don't know but

01:17:20   If you're a little patient, I like I think you have to give it time because takes, you know

01:17:25   there's a long pipe, but you know the pipeline takes a while to

01:17:28   To flush all this bad stuff out of the system before you see the new ones

01:17:32   And it's just a question of how far they'll go

01:17:34   The Mac Pro is gonna be a great test if the Mac Pro comes out and it's another cylinder type

01:17:39   Exercise that does not bode well for Marco's eBay computer because he's gonna be hanging out for a while

01:17:46   while he waits for the you know, oh like one approach they could take is

01:17:50   We know a lot of people love the new keyboard and I kind of like it too, by the way

01:17:54   Like I almost never use it

01:17:56   So I think my laptop at work is actually a great test case because of my laptop keyboard at work dies

01:18:01   That's a bad sign because I type on it. So

01:18:04   little like I type on my other keyboard all the time and she's a desktop but

01:18:09   It could be that a lot of people like that and one way they could go is we'll just make that reliable

01:18:13   Find a way to make that keyboard that feels like that the case you really likes and a lot of other people really like

01:18:17   And that I kind of like to other than the arrow keys and all the other laptop keyboard crap that I hate just because of key

01:18:23   layout

01:18:24   Just make that reliable if that's what they do in three years again bad sign for Marco

01:18:29   So we have many things to be watching but I I'm you know

01:18:33   I'm still entertaining fantasies that they are really turning the ship here and

01:18:38   and they're gonna let the Mac be the Mac in hardware and in software and make all of us

01:18:44   old school Mac users happy because honestly like who are you trying to make happy with

01:18:49   the Macs? Who is super happy with these new computers? Maybe people might like them and

01:18:53   I know a lot of people do like the new keyboard but I don't think anybody's head over heels for

01:18:58   the new laptops and nobody was really head over heels for the new Mac Pro either so

01:19:03   there's some work to be done there and Apple says they're gonna do it and I feel like I want

01:19:07   I want to give him a chance to bowl me over.

01:19:09   - Before we leave this topic, we should also mention

01:19:12   the amazing article by Casey Johnson at the Outline

01:19:15   about the keyboards that came out yesterday.

01:19:19   That basically going through her process

01:19:22   of having to get keys repaired multiple times

01:19:25   at the Genius Bar, the crazy things they tell her,

01:19:27   the feigned surprise, oh, it must be a speck of dust.

01:19:32   Come on, this is a widespread issue.

01:19:36   They should know about this by now.

01:19:39   It's a great article that I think everybody should read.

01:19:42   It spawned a lot of discussion around

01:19:44   the other blogs as well.

01:19:45   Pretty much everyone linked to it and said,

01:19:47   "Yeah, me too."

01:19:48   So it's pretty great.

01:19:51   Just to add to this,

01:19:55   there are a lot of people when stuff like this comes out,

01:19:58   like when we complain about the keyboard here

01:20:01   or when other people complain about it

01:20:03   or even when people report problems with it,

01:20:05   there's a lot of people who are like,

01:20:06   "Oh, I love it, it's my favorite keyboard ever

01:20:08   "and the old ones all feel like crap to me now."

01:20:10   Not that different from Case's opinion of it.

01:20:12   And I wanna just state two separate things here.

01:20:15   Number one, you can love it.

01:20:18   You can love the way the new keyboard feels.

01:20:21   That is a separate thing from is it reliable or not.

01:20:25   Like if the new keyboard has as many problems

01:20:28   as it appears to have anecdotally,

01:20:31   from almost everyone I know who has one

01:20:33   and almost everyone who I've asked on Twitter,

01:20:36   Problems are widespread with keys getting stuck or breaking.

01:20:40   Widespread.

01:20:42   It certainly seems like this is a pretty big problem.

01:20:45   And it's also important to point out,

01:20:47   these laptops aren't very old,

01:20:49   and they're having these problems already.

01:20:50   In many cases, they have these problems

01:20:52   within a few months of ownership.

01:20:53   So it's, you know, there are problems with this keyboard.

01:20:57   You can like it, you can like the way it feels,

01:21:00   but if it has problems with reliability,

01:21:03   it's a bad keyboard, regardless of what you think

01:21:06   of yours personally.

01:21:08   My second thing to point out is that these aren't

01:21:11   the only two choices we have.

01:21:13   You have the 2015 and earlier keyboard,

01:21:17   and you have the MacBook hard as a rock keyboard

01:21:20   that breaks constantly.

01:21:21   There are other options for keyboards that Apple can use,

01:21:25   and in fact, they already have one,

01:21:27   and Casey already loves it.

01:21:29   It's called the Magic Keyboard 2.

01:21:32   The Magic Keyboard 2 is very, very thin.

01:21:36   It has Johnny's dumb layout where there's no space

01:21:39   between any of the keys and the arrow keys are all the same

01:21:41   so they're all square and have no gap

01:21:43   so you can't feel to where they are.

01:21:45   So it satisfies Apple's needs to be thin

01:21:48   and be symmetric at the cost of feeling good.

01:21:51   It has pretty shallow travel, feels very precise,

01:21:54   has a much more precise click and less wobbliness

01:21:58   than the old 2015 laptop keyboards.

01:22:01   thing is, that uses scissor switches. The old, reliable scissor switches that didn't

01:22:07   die when one spec of dust got in one key. Apple already has the solution to this problem.

01:22:13   They can have a modern clickier feel with lower travel, they can have the stupid layout

01:22:19   that they want of the keys with no space and bad arrow keys, and it can be super thin,

01:22:24   but it can also have reliable key switches that also do provide a little more travel

01:22:29   than the MacBook keyboard and a little less travel

01:22:31   than the 2015 keyboard.

01:22:33   So it's kind of this nice happy medium there

01:22:36   and it should be way more reliable.

01:22:39   So all they have to do is take that keyboard

01:22:42   that they already make and find a way

01:22:44   to put that into laptops.

01:22:46   And if you go to a store and you look at a Magic keyboard,

01:22:49   they're pretty damn thin.

01:22:51   I have a feeling that Apple can figure out how to do that.

01:22:55   - So being the optimist again,

01:22:58   I think that, you know, again, it takes a while for these decisions to make it from,

01:23:02   like we've decided to do a thing to manifest any product, so it still could be years.

01:23:07   But their recent changes in the iOS device line give me some optimism here.

01:23:13   One of the best examples is both the iPhone 7 and the iPhone 10, and I guess the 8s as

01:23:18   well.

01:23:19   Like the iPhone 7 prioritizing battery life and going with the same form factor for the

01:23:24   third year in a row and getting so much better battery life than the 6 and also the 10. The 10

01:23:30   not being you know even thinner than the 7 like saying we're going to you know either make it

01:23:38   thicker or keep it the same thickness and we're going to spend that on battery. The two extra

01:23:42   hours of battery life shows a change in philosophy from every single year we're going to keep making

01:23:48   it thinner and thinner and just try to maintain. Past two iterations have been, we're not going to

01:23:55   try to make it thinner at all costs and just maintain. We want to increase battery life.

01:24:00   Seven was better than the six and this ten is way better than the seven. Two hours they advertise

01:24:04   and that's what exactly we've been asking them to do. You're making the wrong choices, you're making

01:24:07   it too thin, go in the other direction. And it took many many years for that to happen, but they did

01:24:13   it. So I am optimistic that even if it's not the exact magic keyboard that three years from now

01:24:21   the new professional laptop will have a keyboard that is reliable and maybe that also

01:24:27   has more key travel. Maybe not because I don't know what the percentages are for people who like

01:24:32   the new one and people who don't and like I said I kind of like it. But certainly the reliability

01:24:38   whatever they have to do there and by the way on the reliability front if someone who's been using

01:24:41   scissor switch keys for a long time and who's had them on laptops for a long time.

01:24:46   They are way more reliable obviously than the butterfly ones have proven to be, but

01:24:51   they're also less reliable than their predecessors.

01:24:53   I have broken keyboards with these scissor switches multiple times.

01:24:58   I've worn through at least one, possibly two because one of my keys is sometimes wonky

01:25:03   at work, aluminum Apple extended keyboards.

01:25:06   I have broken keys on PowerBook G4 era computers, which also had scissor switches under their

01:25:13   very different looking key caps, right?

01:25:15   I have never broken a key switch on an Apple Extended 2, which I used for years and years

01:25:21   and years, since like 1989 or whatever when the SC30 came out.

01:25:25   I have never broken a key switch on any keys before that.

01:25:28   So if you want to compare reliability for the little plastic scissor switch things compared

01:25:32   to the "mechanical keys" and other keyboards, another term that drives me nuts, as if decision

01:25:38   switches are not mechanical.

01:25:41   It is a downgrade in reliability for size.

01:25:44   It's just a question of, is it an acceptable downgrade?

01:25:47   Me using an Apple aluminum extended keyboard for seven years and then I break a key, I'm

01:25:53   like, all right, I've been pounding on this keyboard eight hours a day at work for seven

01:25:56   years.

01:25:57   I accept that I have now broken one of the very commonly used keys, and I can kind of

01:26:02   get it to fix because I'm pretty good at like prying off these key caps and putting it back

01:26:05   on but it's always a little bit wonky and you know what seven years good job keyboard

01:26:09   you're filthy anyway because I haven't been cleaning you well enough buy another keyboard

01:26:13   fifty bucks and you're fine that we're willing I think we're all willing to trade that even

01:26:19   though Apple extended to you could you know defend yourself from a mugger with and it

01:26:24   will still work fine like it's just there is no you know what I mean like literally

01:26:28   never broke I remember I dropped the pocket knife off a high shelf and it landed on the

01:26:33   keyboard with like the blade out because I don't know I had my knife with my blade out

01:26:38   and it like cut off like the corner of one of the keys the thing was still fine like

01:26:45   enough force to actually cut the plastic of the key cap of the key switch was fine so

01:26:49   the thing was like a tank but you know so there's there's leeway for Apple to be thinner

01:26:55   be more elegant, be lighter weight, reduce reliability,

01:27:00   just don't reduce it quite that much.

01:27:01   And it feels like they've gone too far with this one.

01:27:04   So I have some hope that they are gonna turn the ship

01:27:09   on this one.

01:27:10   And it frustrates me that none of us know

01:27:13   how widespread this problem really is.

01:27:15   We just, you know, it's all anecdotes and like,

01:27:17   oh yeah, of course, you know, everyone who's gonna respond

01:27:19   to Casey's article, not this Casey, the other one,

01:27:21   is gonna be like people who have keyboard problems.

01:27:24   And the same thing with like when Marco was complaining

01:27:25   about the keyboard, you know, a year ago. Of course we heard from all the other people who

01:27:30   hate the keyboard and all the other people who have reliability problems, right? But we can't

01:27:34   tell percentage-wise. It's not a representative sample. It's just the people who are at the

01:27:43   extremes and probably mostly people that agree with us. But Apple knows. And I think Apple geniuses

01:27:50   probably kind of know because they're just there taking all the repairs and stuff.

01:27:55   So, I wish we knew exactly how much we're overreacting to this or not, but anecdotally,

01:28:02   it just seems so clear that, like Marco said, these are new computers, the keyboards are

01:28:08   already failing.

01:28:10   Casey Johnston's article, like, it is of a type.

01:28:14   It's a very typical article where if you are in the industry of writing about these types

01:28:20   products and you personally have to bring your brand new computer back three times because

01:28:27   the keyboard won't work?

01:28:30   That's like, you know, I'm writing an article about this because this is way outside the

01:28:34   realm of expectation.

01:28:35   Three times?

01:28:36   Like fine, some of you get it and it doesn't work once, you get it repaired like now that

01:28:38   it's repaired it'll be fine.

01:28:40   Especially if it's like you bring it in, oh well this is the new 2017 keyboard with the

01:28:44   rubber blah blah blah, now it's repaired, it's fine.

01:28:46   But if you bring in and they replace a huge piece of the computer at great expense and

01:28:51   it's just all you've done is start the timer again and go, "Oh, six weeks have passed,

01:28:56   now bring it back in again.

01:28:57   That will be another $300 to $700 and new one."

01:29:02   That's just a bad design.

01:29:03   There's no hope.

01:29:04   If you feel like bringing it in and getting huge parts of your computer replaced because

01:29:07   it's all one giant thing doesn't make you feel like now this problem is fixed, all it

01:29:13   you feel like as you just started a timer on the next failure again, that's just a bad design.

01:29:17   And that's, I like, I really hope that, you know, we're capturing these devices and we're looking

01:29:25   at the issue and we're taking stock and it's actually not that big a percentage and blah,

01:29:29   blah, blah, blah. Like I don't know what to believe, but I do know the hopelessness of that

01:29:34   feeling. I kind of felt it with my Thunderbolt display when I would bring it in and get it

01:29:38   quote unquote repair with huge amounts of the guts replaced, but then I would get it back and

01:29:41   of the same problem would be there.

01:29:43   And I had to bring that in three times as well, but luckily the third time was the charm,

01:29:46   and that did it.

01:29:48   But these keyboards, I have very little faith that your third repair is going to be any

01:29:52   more successful than your first or second repair, especially if you've got the "new

01:29:57   keyboard" on the second repair and the third repair.

01:30:00   So this is all the type of thing that makes me believe that Apple will change its mind

01:30:06   on this, design a new keyboard or adapt the magic one that the other Casey, oh this is

01:30:12   so confusing, that Casey Liss loves. And in two to three years we will see a new 15-inch

01:30:18   with these new keys and Apple will talk about it in a subtle but not particularly self-deprecating

01:30:25   way, and we will all cheer and it'll be safe for Marco to buy one unless it still has no

01:30:29   ports, in which case he'll still be angry.

01:30:32   (laughs)

01:30:34   - Well, just for the record,

01:30:36   I have not used a Touch Bar MacBook Pro

01:30:40   for more than about 45 seconds in an Apple store.

01:30:42   So that could be the utter filth and dumpster fire

01:30:46   that everyone says it is.

01:30:47   I don't know.

01:30:48   But I do freaking love my MacBook Adorable.

01:30:52   Are there things I would change short?

01:30:54   I would love to have one more port.

01:30:56   I would love to have MagSafe.

01:30:59   But in the grand scheme of things,

01:31:00   I freaking love this computer.

01:31:02   It's all of the good parts of the iPad,

01:31:04   except without that iOS thing that holds you back.

01:31:07   And so I love this computer.

01:31:10   I am looking forward to one day in like two years

01:31:12   or something like that,

01:31:13   eventually getting a Touch Bar MacBook Pro at work

01:31:15   and seeing what that's like.

01:31:17   - Don't look forward to this. - I love my iMac.

01:31:19   Well, you know what I mean.

01:31:20   I love my iMac.

01:31:21   I am hopeful, however,

01:31:25   that especially this keyboard that I think,

01:31:29   Marco, you made a really great point earlier.

01:31:31   you, really me, I do like it.

01:31:34   I absolutely like it, but I also concur

01:31:37   that it is not as reliable as it should be.

01:31:39   And I had to buy, and we talked about it on the show,

01:31:42   I had to buy a can of compressed air,

01:31:43   which is the first time I bought one in probably a decade,

01:31:46   because I needed to blow out this microscopic piece of dust

01:31:51   from under the keyboard such that

01:31:53   it would operate properly again.

01:31:55   And it turns out I just moved it to a different key.

01:31:57   And the second time I blew it out,

01:31:59   and I think that actually did it.

01:32:00   But that's not an acceptable answer, right?

01:32:04   I've never had to blow out an Apple keyboard before.

01:32:07   And I just hope that Apple is willing,

01:32:11   and I think they are, is willing to revisit this

01:32:14   in the future, but I love this iMac

01:32:17   and I love this MacBook Adorable.

01:32:18   And we'll see what happens with my next computer

01:32:21   whenever I buy it.

01:32:21   The other thing I wish this MacBook Adorable had though

01:32:25   was Touch ID or Face ID question mark?

01:32:30   art. That would be cool. Do we think that's coming?

01:32:33   Yeah, before we turn to the Mac show, which happens occasionally. Sorry, people. We're

01:32:38   Mac users. I mean, have they seen the show art? It shouldn't be that much of a surprise.

01:32:43   So Face ID as a Mac has been in here for a while, and I just want to touch on this, especially

01:32:47   in light of Marco talking about iMac Pro versus Mac Pro. I forget how we know that the iMac

01:32:55   Pro is going to have a secure enclave. Did Apple just announce that, or did people just

01:32:58   asked the person who was in front of the computer at WWDC.

01:33:01   - I think it was in some firmware reference,

01:33:03   some EFI reference somewhere.

01:33:06   - Well, anyway, one of the potential advantages

01:33:09   of an all-in-one computer,

01:33:10   kind of like the advantage that Apple leveraged

01:33:14   to bring the 5K iMac at first,

01:33:16   is that you can do a lot of stuff

01:33:18   when everything is inside the same case.

01:33:20   So a weird display controller with the timing controller

01:33:25   and the dual internal cable,

01:33:27   you can do all that and it's like it's all in one box you don't have to worry about that

01:33:30   they can give you a 5k screen in the iMac before they can give it to you on the Mac Pro or some

01:33:36   other computer with an external thing because they don't want to have two wires connecting it and

01:33:40   elegant and blah blah blah. Well one of the other things that you can do is stuff like face ID where

01:33:45   you've got this here enclave and you're guaranteed to have a camera and you know where the camera is

01:33:49   and you know what the quality of it is and you've got it pointed at the person's face and you've got

01:33:55   all the sensors and the IR dot thing and so on and so forth. So, Face ID starts to take off and works

01:34:02   well. I really do want to see it on Macs and, you know, the all-in-one computers, both laptops and

01:34:09   the iMac, are a perfect place for it to appear. We were talking about Touch ID and the Touch Bar

01:34:14   on Macs, like on a separate keyboard, but that poses a lot of problems. Can the Touch Bar work

01:34:22   over Bluetooth, if the secure enclave is inside the keyboard,

01:34:26   how does that communicate?

01:34:27   And similarly with Face ID and the IR sensor

01:34:29   and the camera and everything,

01:34:30   if Apple makes an external display, which they are,

01:34:32   they're making an external display,

01:34:33   but they want to put Face ID in it, they could do it.

01:34:38   But how does that communicate back to those computer?

01:34:40   I guess the answer is like,

01:34:41   oh, it'll just be Thunderbolt 3 and there'll be no problem.

01:34:43   But that's an additional complexity

01:34:45   that makes that monitor even more complex and more fraught

01:34:49   and more like potentially flaky

01:34:52   than if everything is in the same box.

01:34:54   So I don't know if the iMac Pros will have Face ID.

01:34:58   Kind of seems like they wouldn't

01:35:01   just because I feel like the timing of their production

01:35:03   and the timing of the iPhone 10 production

01:35:06   don't match up in a way that I would expect

01:35:09   the first iteration of the iMac Pro to have them.

01:35:11   But I fully expect, and I think Apple should,

01:35:16   Integrate face ID into all of their Macs eventually if it works well much more so than touch ID

01:35:21   Which has been integrated into the laptops, but hasn't made it to the desktops and having you have you know

01:35:27   A laptop with touch ID now and it's not the best implementation. It's a little bit slow

01:35:31   But I would love it if I just open the lid on my laptop and it unlocked by seeing my face because it's the perfect

01:35:38   Scenario when you lift the lid on your laptop

01:35:40   Chances are even better than when you use a phone that you will be facing it

01:35:43   Like that's how you open the lid on your laptop when it's facing you, right?

01:35:46   It's like here I am you open it up and your face comes right into view

01:35:50   Whereas your phone you could like pull out of your pocket or whatever might be facing a weird direction much more challenging there

01:35:54   And similarly on iMac you sit down in front of your computer boy

01:35:58   It's got a great view of your face. It can spray those IR dots all over like it's just it's right there

01:36:02   Everything's built into one thing. And so I really hope they do

01:36:06   Bring that to max. I really hope they kind of like skip touch ID and say well

01:36:10   "Well, we brought Touch ID to our laptops and it's okay,

01:36:12   "but you know what, let's just skip right to Face ID."

01:36:14   Because even more so than Casey's beloved watch unlock,

01:36:17   Face ID is the ultimate.

01:36:19   - I was gonna say, because it's super quick now,

01:36:22   super quick, between the new watch and the new OS,

01:36:25   it is super fast.

01:36:26   - But you don't have to have your watch on

01:36:28   and you can just sit down and different people can sit down

01:36:30   and can recognize who they are and switch to their account.

01:36:32   Like if they can do that well and fast,

01:36:34   that is a better future for authentication on the Mac

01:36:38   touch ID ever could be and it solves so many problems. The only downside is it's more difficult

01:36:45   to do on the Mac Pro. Supposedly they're top end computer now you have to figure out a

01:36:48   way to you know get those cameras and maybe it may be overblown. Maybe Thunderbird really

01:36:54   does solve this problem entirely for them. Maybe they have plenty of bandwidth and side

01:36:57   channels for all these weird sensors and everything and there's no problem with the drivers. I

01:37:00   just I just worry it will be less reliable than it is in the iMac where they've got everything

01:37:05   inside the same case.

01:37:07   - The other problem is with laptops,

01:37:08   is that you have a pretty severe thickness limitation

01:37:10   on the screen lid.

01:37:12   You know, the screen lid is extremely thin.

01:37:15   You know, they can't even fit a decent front-facing camera

01:37:18   in the laptops.

01:37:19   Like, you can get like, you know, a $3,000 MacBook Pro

01:37:22   that's brand new, and the FaceTime camera on it

01:37:25   is worse than like the iPhone 5S's FaceTime camera.

01:37:28   It's really, really bad front cameras on the Macs.

01:37:32   Possibly for cost reasons, 'cause they just don't care.

01:37:34   but most likely also because of thickness reasons,

01:37:36   that those screen lids are super thin.

01:37:38   And I don't know if they can fit good enough sensors

01:37:41   into those screen lids on the laptops

01:37:44   to actually achieve Face ID anytime soon.

01:37:47   - I think the camera is probably good enough already.

01:37:48   It's just, I don't know how thick the IR sprayer

01:37:51   or depth thing is.

01:37:52   I mean, as soon as we get the iFixit teardown on the phone,

01:37:54   like, are they using all that thickness

01:37:56   for the additional sensors?

01:37:57   Or are actually those sensors super thin

01:37:59   and it's no problem?

01:38:00   I feel like it can fit.

01:38:03   There's not as much room as there is on a phone, but you know, like you can always make

01:38:09   it a millimeter or two thicker.

01:38:10   I wouldn't say that they should go with the Bulge, but maybe not the first generation,

01:38:16   but down the line, those sensors, there's nothing inherent about the sensors like optically

01:38:19   speaking that makes me think they can't have it, and I think the camera is plenty good

01:38:23   enough already.

01:38:24   It's just the auxiliary sensors, the multiple cameras or the IR thing that I don't think

01:38:30   they are.

01:38:31   on the iMac, plenty of room there, and so that should be the first place it appears

01:38:35   is on their big desktops because you've got more room, more power, and so that's

01:38:40   what they should do.

01:38:41   Yeah, I have this slight fantasy that maybe the iMac Pro does have Face ID and that's

01:38:48   why it's not out yet. They were holding it back until the iPhone unveiled with its

01:38:52   Face ID. But I think in reality that's very unlikely.

01:38:54   Yeah, the timing just doesn't seem to work out because you know everything having to

01:38:58   to do with Face ID is coming first on the X,

01:39:00   and that is everything that the company is focused on.

01:39:02   The iMac Pro was started so long ago,

01:39:04   like it just seems like their flagship phone

01:39:06   is going to blaze the path for this.

01:39:08   And then like, it just doesn't work out timing-wise.

01:39:11   I feel like even the second generation iMac Pro

01:39:15   that may be in the planning stages,

01:39:17   even that one might not have Face ID incorporated,

01:39:19   but I would love to be surprised too.

01:39:21   I mean, it's not like any of us scrutinize the forehead

01:39:24   of the iMac Pro model and that thing

01:39:27   to look for tiny little impossible to see

01:39:30   slightly differently colored black areas in the forehead

01:39:33   to see if we could see an IR sensor.

01:39:35   - Yeah, I think it's way more likely

01:39:37   that Face ID does come to the Mac,

01:39:38   but that it's in like three years, probably not soon.

01:39:42   - Oh, I don't wanna wait that long.

01:39:43   Next year I wanna see it in an iMac.

01:39:45   - Maybe that can be in the Pro display.

01:39:48   We have speculated on the show,

01:39:51   they mentioned in the Mac Pro briefing last spring

01:39:53   that they're working on a Mac Pro

01:39:55   and also a new Pro display.

01:39:57   we know nothing about that display except that they said it's going to

01:40:01   exist so we don't know like what size it is it could be 8k we don't know like we

01:40:06   we have no idea what size it is what resolution it is what features will it

01:40:10   have when will it come out what will it cost like we have no idea one of the

01:40:15   obvious questions is what would make someone buy the Apple Pro display

01:40:20   instead of the LG you know mediocrity box and face ID could be a great answer

01:40:25   'cause you know it's gonna cost more

01:40:28   'cause it's gonna be an Apple display.

01:40:29   So if Apple's gonna sell,

01:40:31   if LG's still selling theirs,

01:40:33   let's assume this thing comes out next summer,

01:40:34   let's say the LG 5K display next summer is 1,000 bucks.

01:40:37   I think at best it's gonna be maybe 900,

01:40:39   but it's probably gonna be about 1,000 bucks next summer.

01:40:42   Apple comes out, let's say their display is 5K,

01:40:44   it's probably gonna be at least 1,500 bucks.

01:40:47   So what can they do to help justify that cost?

01:40:50   If LG's is gonna be 1,000, Apple's not gonna be 1,000.

01:40:53   So one of the things they can do that no one else can do

01:40:57   is face ID, they can build that in.

01:40:59   Like that would be an incredible selling point

01:41:01   that would make pretty much everyone at the high end

01:41:04   choose that display over some other thing from somebody else.

01:41:08   So that's something they can do, we don't know.

01:41:10   Until, you know that's the thing,

01:41:11   until we get actual information

01:41:14   and hopefully actual product releases

01:41:16   from the Mac Pro and this Pro display,

01:41:19   there are so many unanswered questions

01:41:21   that make it very hard to contextualize the iMac Pro

01:41:25   and to decide whether to buy the iMac Pro or the other things.

01:41:29   - So you said you'll be buying 13 iMac Pros.

01:41:32   - Well, thanks to our sponsors this week,

01:41:34   Betterment, Hover, and Away, and we will see you next week.

01:41:38   ♪ I'm pressing the space bar ♪

01:41:41   ♪ I'm pressing the space bar ♪

01:41:44   ♪ I am pressing the space bar ♪

01:41:47   ♪ I'm pressing the space bar ♪

01:41:49   And nothing is happening

01:41:54   This computer is about a year old

01:41:58   And it was very expensive

01:42:01   I had been waiting to upgrade for a long time

01:42:06   And now you're telling me

01:42:09   That it would need extensive

01:42:12   Surgery for a speck of dust

01:42:15   Lodged beneath the butterfly

01:42:18   I found your instructions, they were not helpful

01:42:23   I bought this can of air, I feel like an idiot

01:42:29   'Cause I'm pressing the spacebar, I'm pressing the spacebar

01:42:35   I am pressing the spacebar, I'm pressing the spacebar

01:42:40   And nothing is happening Oh, nothing is happening

01:42:51   I'm pressing the space bar And nothing's happening

01:42:56   Get me out of here

01:42:59   So tell us what your little experiment was last week with the show.

01:43:05   Not with your computer, but with the show.

01:43:07   - Yeah, this didn't go so well.

01:43:09   So, long time listeners will remember that

01:43:13   I had a B in my bonnet, as Casey would probably say,

01:43:19   about, I was upset that Apple's MP3 decoding library

01:43:24   did not properly seek VBR MP3s,

01:43:28   and that podcasts could be way better

01:43:31   if they could be VBR MP3s,

01:43:32   because variable bitrate means that you can,

01:43:35   For instance, the silences between all of our words,

01:43:39   that overcast is hopefully shortening for 70% of you,

01:43:42   the silences between all of our words can use very few bits

01:43:46   'cause there isn't much information there.

01:43:48   The words can use a decent amount of bits

01:43:50   but not a massive amount 'cause they don't need that much.

01:43:52   And then the theme song that plays between the after show

01:43:54   and the regular show can use music bit rates.

01:43:57   And all of that could be done at a total file size

01:44:00   of not that much compared to a constant bit rate

01:44:03   mediocre quality file.

01:44:05   just because different parts of the file

01:44:06   need different things, and some of them need more,

01:44:08   and some need less.

01:44:08   So it makes sense to encode with variable bitrate.

01:44:11   But the problem is, if things that don't properly support

01:44:15   variable bitrate, they basically read the file

01:44:20   as if it's either the average bitrate of like,

01:44:23   the file size divided by the duration,

01:44:25   or they read the very first MP3 frame,

01:44:30   which is like the first few milliseconds of the file,

01:44:32   and they assume that the whole file

01:44:34   is whatever bitrate that first frame is.

01:44:37   And so this causes a couple of problems.

01:44:40   Oh, and also the way some of them would calculate duration

01:44:44   is they would read that first frame,

01:44:47   see what the bitrate is, look at the file size,

01:44:50   and just divide it and say, all right,

01:44:51   well, if the first frame is 32 kilobits

01:44:54   and this is a 100 meg file and this is gonna be like,

01:44:57   what would that be, like a five hour long file

01:45:00   or something like that?

01:45:02   The MP3 standard is very old.

01:45:04   It doesn't provide a lot of niceties in this regard.

01:45:08   So there's been some bad implementations over the years.

01:45:11   However, VBR encoding has been around

01:45:13   since literally the late 90s.

01:45:15   So this is not a new thing to do,

01:45:18   and it's extremely common for music files to be VBR encoded

01:45:23   because it's a way to achieve very good quality

01:45:25   without obscene file sizes.

01:45:27   So this has been around for literally 20 years.

01:45:31   not everything supports it properly.

01:45:32   The main problem that you see

01:45:34   when it's not supported properly

01:45:35   is either the duration is misreported

01:45:37   because of what I said earlier,

01:45:38   or seeking doesn't work properly.

01:45:41   In the sense that you seek to a timestamp,

01:45:44   and as far as the player is concerned,

01:45:45   it is playing at that timestamp,

01:45:46   but the content that you are hearing

01:45:48   is not the content that's actually at the timestamp.

01:45:50   You're hearing the wrong thing for the time if you seek,

01:45:53   because the dumb way to seek is,

01:45:56   if you know the file size and the duration,

01:45:59   You can say, all right, well, if the user seeked

01:46:01   to the 50% point in time in the duration,

01:46:05   seek to the 50% byte in the file

01:46:08   and then just start playing from there.

01:46:11   With a VBR file, though, you don't actually know

01:46:14   that the 50% of the bytes through matches up

01:46:17   to 50% of the time through, because the distribution

01:46:21   of different bitrates could be different

01:46:22   in different parts of the podcast.

01:46:24   So when something doesn't support VBR properly,

01:46:28   you have that issue where seeking to a timestamp

01:46:30   does not actually play the correct timestamp.

01:46:33   Well, we started getting a lot of reports

01:46:35   from people on Android mostly this past week

01:46:39   when I released the show saying,

01:46:41   "Hey, your chapter markers are all messed up

01:46:43   "and seek to the wrong timestamps in,"

01:46:45   you know, insert name of Android podcast player.

01:46:48   It wasn't too long before somebody,

01:46:51   I think John probably asked,

01:46:53   "Did you by any chance encode the show in VBR this week?"

01:46:57   (laughs)

01:46:59   And the answer was yes, I did.

01:47:02   So Apple added VBR seeking support finally

01:47:05   in iOS 11 and in High Sierra.

01:47:08   And now that iOS 11 has over 50% market share

01:47:11   and nobody listens to podcasts on the Mac, sorry Casey,

01:47:15   so I figured this would be a safe time for me to try VBR,

01:47:19   to just see how many problems,

01:47:21   are we gonna hear from anybody who has problems

01:47:23   or is no one gonna really notice or care?

01:47:25   because most of our listeners are on iOS.

01:47:27   I've, but a vast majority of them upgrade

01:47:29   to the new OS fairly soon.

01:47:31   And since the global share of iOS 11 was over 50%,

01:47:34   I figured, you know, that's pretty good.

01:47:36   And I knew it worked fine on Overcast

01:47:38   and on any other iOS app that used

01:47:39   the built-in iOS libraries.

01:47:41   I figured Android is nerdy.

01:47:43   Surely they figured out a 20-year-old MP3 standard by now.

01:47:47   Turns out that was wrong.

01:47:48   It turns out that, I don't know the great details

01:47:52   on how MP3 decoding is done on Android,

01:47:56   how many different libraries there are to do it,

01:47:58   what versions there are out there,

01:47:59   'cause I don't know anything about Android,

01:48:00   but suffice to say, most of Android or all of Android,

01:48:03   in practice, does not support VBR seeking of MP3s,

01:48:06   and therefore, or at least the libraries

01:48:08   that podcast makers use, I honestly, again,

01:48:10   I don't know the details of all this.

01:48:11   Short version is, they're not supported.

01:48:14   So all of our Android listeners started bothering us

01:48:17   and the app makers who make Android podcast apps.

01:48:19   Some of which are very mad at me right now.

01:48:21   It was causing me enough problems that I was convinced

01:48:25   to put a CBR file back up, a constant bitrate file back up,

01:48:29   and that this was not a good test after all.

01:48:31   The failure rate was simply too high.

01:48:34   So about a day after release, I switched the file out

01:48:37   for a regular bitrate, lower quality, larger file.

01:48:42   It turns out this was a failed experiment for VBR last week.

01:48:46   I don't know when I will try it again.

01:48:48   I think what this has shown me is that

01:48:51   basically Android's not ready.

01:48:53   iOS just got ready, Android is not ready,

01:48:56   and because of the nature of Android,

01:48:58   it's probably gonna be a long time

01:49:00   before podcast makers can safely ship VBR files

01:49:03   without causing problems for people.

01:49:05   So I'm guessing I'm probably not gonna do VBR again

01:49:10   for a very long time, possibly if ever,

01:49:13   because the other thing is, if I can, for instance,

01:49:17   serve different files to different clients.

01:49:20   Right now there's not a lot of infrastructure

01:49:21   in place for that, things like our hosting

01:49:24   and our website and things like that.

01:49:25   But if I were to go through the complexity rabbit hole

01:49:28   of adding something like that where I could serve

01:49:29   different files to different clients,

01:49:33   then I probably should stop using MP3 altogether

01:49:35   for the good one and I should start making an Opus file.

01:49:38   'Cause Opus is a way better codec than MP3.

01:49:42   And I could get awesome quality with VBR, naturally,

01:49:46   in something like a third of the file size.

01:49:49   So I don't know if I'm ever going to actually be able

01:49:52   to practically use VBR MP3s as a podcast again,

01:49:56   but at least now that Apple supports it in their libraries,

01:50:00   which means now that every iOS app will now support it,

01:50:03   at least there's a chance,

01:50:04   and I hope I can do it in the future,

01:50:05   but it's probably gonna be a long way off, if ever.

01:50:08   - You should just serve up the show as a HEVC video,

01:50:13   but with no video.

01:50:15   It has all the features that you want from its audio stream, its variable bitrate and

01:50:19   chapter markers and all that stuff.

01:50:23   It may turn out to be playable on more platforms sooner than variable bitrate MP3 because it's

01:50:28   not like VBR MP3 is the new standard waiting for people to catch up, as you noted, is 20

01:50:33   years old.

01:50:34   So if they haven't done it now, what's their motivation?

01:50:35   Whereas all of the HEVC and all those new containers is a new format, and I think most

01:50:40   platforms will adopt it so people can watch 4K video or whatever on it.

01:50:44   Although what is the competing one?

01:50:45   What is the Google one that they like?

01:50:47   Is it VP9?

01:50:48   Yeah, one of the VPs.

01:50:50   Yeah.

01:50:51   Well, anyway, you still probably serve two different frosty things.

01:50:54   Anyway, next time just, you know, do the experiment in top four is all I'm saying.

01:51:00   I can't hear about pumpkin spice food.

01:51:02   I'm so angry.

01:51:03   They'll get over it.

01:51:04   They'll be fine.

01:51:05   Wow.

01:51:06   It's escalated quickly.

01:51:07   It's not as important as hearing us complain for the umpteenth time about the MacBook Pro

01:51:12   keyboard in the Mac Pro. I mean, that's a priority straight here. Although I have to

01:51:16   say, seeing the picture of all that food that you bought, like I try not to do the math.

01:51:21   Like I feel like you're running the show at a loss based on how many hundreds of dollars

01:51:25   worth of crap food you buy for each episode and then, you know, give away or throw away.

01:51:29   It just doesn't seem to make economic sense and it's giving you tummy aches.

01:51:33   Yeah, fortunately, pumpkin spice garbage food from discount retail stores is not very expensive.

01:51:40   But yeah, that definitely was probably...

01:51:41   - It's a lot of food.

01:51:42   - Yeah. - It's a lot of food.

01:51:43   - Well, it's big boxes.

01:51:44   I mean, you know, it's like, it's crap food.

01:51:46   There's not a lot in there.

01:51:47   - Did you try it all other than the ones

01:51:49   that you were too afraid to?

01:51:50   Like, did you actually open every box and consider?

01:51:52   - Oh, yeah.

01:51:54   Yeah, like there were a few that we cut from the show.

01:51:56   Like there was a bag of popcorn.

01:51:58   There were a few that we cut

01:51:59   just 'cause it wasn't interesting.

01:52:00   I mean, we recorded something like an hour and 45 minutes

01:52:05   worth of tasting. - It was two sessions, right?

01:52:06   - Yeah. - Because of upset tummies.

01:52:08   - And we ran out of time.

01:52:10   Like the first session we had to fit in the school day

01:52:12   because we were doing it during the day

01:52:13   and it was time to go pick up Adam at the bus.

01:52:15   We had to stop.

01:52:16   It was like we had way too much food.

01:52:20   So yeah, that was, there was a lot of editing there.

01:52:25   - We'll put a link in the show notes.

01:52:26   This is one of Marco's other podcasts

01:52:28   and it's very different from ATP and it's a lot of fun

01:52:31   and if you're interested in it,

01:52:33   you'll be able to link to it.

01:52:34   In this episode, they tasted a bunch of pumpkin spice food.

01:52:38   I don't know why is what they do.

01:52:40   And then the premise of the show is that they rank them,

01:52:44   but it's a farce.

01:52:44   So anyway, check out the show.

01:52:46   (laughing)

01:52:48   Can I have this be tied for my number two?

01:52:50   - I have 45 honorable mentions.

01:52:53   - Right, yeah.

01:52:54   No, I give them the honorable mentions

01:52:55   just once they get into the four

01:52:57   that they can't actually pick four.

01:52:58   Marco had a new twist this time

01:53:01   because it was like, this would be my number two,

01:53:04   except it's not my number two

01:53:05   'cause I'm weird about things.

01:53:06   So he had an alternate number two and three

01:53:10   after he'd gotten up to his number one

01:53:12   and he'd done the other ones.

01:53:13   And he's saying, "This would actually be my number two."

01:53:15   But, and there was some kind of explanation

01:53:17   that made sense in his mind,

01:53:18   but it didn't actually make any sense

01:53:19   about as to why his number two was not even in the top four.

01:53:22   - Yeah, that's it.

01:53:23   - Truly mind boggling.

01:53:24   - It made sense in my head.

01:53:26   - He'd already had lots of pumpkin beer at that point.

01:53:28   So we didn't really know.

01:53:29   - No, I, not honestly, I had like three sips of pumpkin beer

01:53:32   'cause one of them I didn't like very much

01:53:34   and the other one I didn't have time to drink.

01:53:37   I was high on pumpkin spice donuts and cream cheese

01:53:41   and all sorts of weird stuff.

01:53:42   - I like how the pumpkin spice donut holes

01:53:46   that barely had any flavor,

01:53:47   it's like you were munching on those anyways.

01:53:49   Like, you know what, donuts.

01:53:50   - Yeah, they're good.

01:53:52   - They're not pumpkin spicy,

01:53:54   they don't even make my horrible mentions, but donuts.

01:53:56   - You can have donut holes in pretty much any flavor

01:54:00   and they're gonna be amazing

01:54:01   and you're gonna want more of them.

01:54:03   - They're so small.

01:54:04   Yes!

01:54:05   They barely count.

01:54:06   They feel free!

01:54:07   That's what we're missing on this show.

01:54:09   How come we don't get snacks?

01:54:10   What the hell?

01:54:11   I know, right?

01:54:12   You got toasters for a while.

01:54:13   Yeah, but I had to supply my own food and it was like toast.

01:54:17   I didn't have any pumpkin butter to put on it.

01:54:22   [BEEPING]