241: Jazzercise Boot Camp


00:00:00   My favorite has to be Jazzercise Bootcamp.

00:00:02   (laughing)

00:00:03   - I was gonna go with Aerobics Bootcamp,

00:00:05   but I'm like, no, let me try something more relevant,

00:00:07   and Jazzercise came out, which is not, it's the same error.

00:00:10   - That's more relevant?

00:00:11   - Well, you know, in the moment,

00:00:12   I've come up with something better than Aerobics.

00:00:14   Aerobics is so 80s, and Jazzercise, like, nope, didn't do it.

00:00:18   - Is Jazzercise a real thing that people do or have done?

00:00:22   - Oh, Jazzercise was real as a heart attack, yes.

00:00:25   (laughing)

00:00:26   - Is it still, like--

00:00:27   - Yes, it's still.

00:00:28   What is it? Is it just exercising to jazz music?

00:00:31   What actually is it? I have no idea.

00:00:33   - I didn't know it was still going on.

00:00:34   I remember it in the 80s.

00:00:35   I haven't seen it in years and years.

00:00:37   - I am almost sure there's a Jazzercise clinic

00:00:40   or whatever you would call it near us.

00:00:41   - A clinic?

00:00:42   - Well, it's still real in the South, obviously,

00:00:44   where they live decades behind us,

00:00:46   culturally and intellectually.

00:00:48   - Oh, god damn it, Jon.

00:00:49   Why do you have to be such a--

00:00:49   - I bet.

00:00:50   - Original workout 80s video.

00:00:53   Oh my god.

00:00:54   - Yeah.

00:00:55   - Oh, wow.

00:00:56   - Jazzercise.com is still a thing.

00:00:58   And I will add that there is a Jazzercise clinic, whatever you call it, in Richmond.

00:01:03   Is this like what Richard Simmons did, basically?

00:01:05   No, Jazzercise is a specific thing. It involves jazz. Or size.

00:01:11   We have a St. Jude fundraiser update. At the time in which we recorded, if memory serves,

00:01:18   we were challenging everyone to see if we could get to $20,000, I believe was the total we wanted.

00:01:23   What was it currently at when we said that? It was like 16 or 17, something like that, right?

00:01:27   Yeah, it was like between 17 and 19, I think. So 20 was, I think, closer to 17. And 20 was certainly attainable.

00:01:33   But I mean, $3,000 is a pretty fair bit of money. So we had challenged everyone, "Hey, can we get to 20?"

00:01:38   And within, I think, 24 hours, probably 12 hours of you releasing the final version of the show,

00:01:44   we blew past 20, which is an excellent problem to have. So then I got on Twitter, and I believe one or both of you had chimed in on this,

00:01:52   And I just said, "Okay, let's see if we can do 25."

00:01:55   And I felt like 25 is a pretty good reach goal when you're just now hitting 20.

00:02:00   And we blew past 25.

00:02:01   At this point, I felt like I didn't want to be obnoxious about it, so I kind of cooled

00:02:06   off on my solicitations.

00:02:09   And it might have been for the best, because without any solicitations on my part, as we

00:02:13   record, $33,258.

00:02:18   Holy monkey, that's amazing.

00:02:20   And I am so, I am genuinely so proud and excited.

00:02:24   Obviously this is not strictly ATP listeners,

00:02:26   not by a long shot, but there certainly seemed

00:02:29   to be a pretty heavy upswing in activity

00:02:33   after the episode released.

00:02:35   And that makes, that genuinely makes me extremely happy.

00:02:37   The Hackett family is very dear friends of ours.

00:02:40   And more importantly, this is going to help

00:02:42   all kinds of kids with cancer.

00:02:44   And you don't have to stop the donations

00:02:48   at the end of the month.

00:02:49   This episode should be released right at the end of the month.

00:02:52   And that's when Steven concentrates on it,

00:02:54   but there is no reason you can't donate again or more,

00:02:57   or if you haven't donated yet, do a little now.

00:03:00   So I would love to see this get even higher,

00:03:02   but $33,258, that is not all ATP,

00:03:05   but it is at least in part ATP.

00:03:07   So thank you everyone who threw a little bit of your money

00:03:10   toward trying to get rid of childhood cancer.

00:03:12   That's super awesome.

00:03:14   - Are we not reminding people that if we said

00:03:17   if they passed 20k, we would try to come up with a word to describe ATP fans.

00:03:21   The best answer we got there was tabs, because there are thousands of them.

00:03:26   No.

00:03:27   No.

00:03:28   No.

00:03:29   That's the best answer?

00:03:30   Definitely not.

00:03:31   I'm not saying we should use it, but it was definitely the funniest answer.

00:03:33   Better than ATPons and ATPeeps, both of which are worse than tabs, but tabs is also pretty

00:03:37   bad.

00:03:38   I'm still thinking about it.

00:03:40   I feel like we should fulfill this promise, but I'm not going to settle.

00:03:43   I'm not going to be like, "Well, it's the best we can come up with."

00:03:45   Nope.

00:03:46   Marco and I are already prepared to settle. I don't like tabs at all, but I could settle on ATPons or ATPeeps.

00:03:53   No, no. ATPons is insulting and ATPeeps has too many gross things. The only one I've come up with so far...

00:04:00   Oh yeah, that's like forced touch.

00:04:02   Yeah, yeah. So here's what I've come up with so far, and I'm not saying this is good, but this is the best I've got so far in my processing.

00:04:09   Sheila's.

00:04:10   Why?

00:04:13   What? Is this a reference that I'm missing?

00:04:15   So Sheila's is the generic word. I believe some Australian can tell me for for women in Australia for a woman in Australia

00:04:22   Sheila Sheila a woman or a girl, right?

00:04:25   and

00:04:27   Sheila's we could just out. Well, it doesn't mean that you're a female listener. It's just a generic term. It's gender-neutral

00:04:32   Also the tank in red versus blue

00:04:35   Isn't mm-hmm

00:04:38   Remember that series is a long time ago anyway, but that's not a great one

00:04:42   But it's the best I've come up with so far and it's mostly just it's mostly just me

00:04:46   Me being angry about Tim's on hello internet

00:04:49   It's 100% what it is

00:04:50   But I also think it's fun exercise to allow a group of what we consider to be almost entirely men who listen to the show

00:04:56   Just stewing the idea of being referred to

00:04:59   By a you know a word that implies a gender that doesn't match yours and that you're just supposed to eat it and say well

00:05:06   It's a gender neutral term. It's fine. I

00:05:08   I respect the effort.

00:05:09   - Yeah, same here.

00:05:10   - And I agree with you on principle.

00:05:12   However, it's also terrible.

00:05:14   - Agreed.

00:05:15   - It's not a good name for listeners, unfortunately.

00:05:16   - So far, all of the options that we have seen so far

00:05:19   are terrible, so I think it's probably safe to say

00:05:21   we probably just won't be naming our listeners

00:05:23   anything generic like this,

00:05:24   because every option people suggest it was awful.

00:05:26   - No, I know, anyway,

00:05:28   we can come up with a good one, we will.

00:05:29   - If we wanted a name that really is gender agnostic,

00:05:33   we could call all the listeners Casey's.

00:05:35   - That's true.

00:05:36   I know cases of both genders.

00:05:38   No, because I think Casey has a connotation. Besides, they're not all Casey's. What

00:05:42   if they identify as a Marco? What if they're not a Miranda? What if they're a Samantha?

00:05:46   Oh my god, I understood that reference.

00:05:48   Casey represents everybody. Casey is—we've been told on a number of occasions that Casey

00:05:53   represents—well, they use a gender term usually for this, but they say Casey represents

00:05:58   the everyman.

00:05:59   They usually say the everywoman, don't they? Everywoman is a gender intro term.

00:06:04   knows, but I understand the point you're driving at Marco, which is that most people will say,

00:06:08   "I wish I was Marco," or "I wish I was John," but in actuality I'm Casey, which is both flattering

00:06:14   and kind of depressing all at once. People wish they were Casey now too, because he's got a fancy

00:06:19   SUV and a BMW that works sometimes. That's so harsh. That is so harsh, John. It is too soon.

00:06:26   Does it currently work? What's the current state? I have driven it only once in the last week,

00:06:30   and that is going to be discussed. No, yeah, we have aftershow stuff to discuss about that.

00:06:35   Yes. Okay. Yes. If you looked at the show notes, Marco, there's some aftershow things to discuss.

00:06:41   Anyway, so we should continue with our follow-up. I am—it's funny, this episode of this show is

00:06:49   really a rollercoaster, kids, because I was on the highest of highs with regard to the

00:06:53   the St. Jude donations. However, now I'm at the lowest of lows. Because I was hoping that

00:06:59   nobody would discover, which I understand this is preposterous. Just hold on. I was

00:07:05   hoping no one would discover that the Apple TV 4K does indeed have a fan. And of course

00:07:10   it was going to be discovered. I understand that. But like in my fantasy world, I was

00:07:15   hoping that nobody would know or that Jon would never find out. He would go on the Todd

00:07:18   Visserie full media blackout with regard to the Apple TV 4K fan.

00:07:22   Why would I do that?

00:07:23   Because I bet you it is so damn quiet that you'll never hear it.

00:07:28   But now that you know it's there, oh, you're going to hear it because you know.

00:07:32   No, I will be honest about it and we'll see.

00:07:35   So this is far from last week, last week where I said the Apple TV 4K has no fan.

00:07:39   Why did I say that?

00:07:40   Because I asked on the show before that, I asked, "Hey, can anybody answer these questions

00:07:43   for me?"

00:07:44   Because I had asked around and no one had been able to answer me.

00:07:46   The person who sent me this answer claimed to work at Apple, and I believe this person,

00:07:51   because we get a lot of emails from people who work at Apple, and they said,

00:07:53   "Apple TV 4K has no fan." They also said this stuff about 24 frames per second. It happened

00:07:58   to be correct. And so I wrote the person back. I'm like, "Well, oops. Looks like you were wrong

00:08:03   on that one." And this person didn't say, "Ha, just kidding. I don't really work at Apple. I

00:08:08   was just pulling your leg." What they said and said was the same thing that Marco and Jason Snell

00:08:15   said when I asked them about it. They both had Apple TV 4Ks in their possession and I

00:08:19   asked them, "Hey guys, does it have a fan?"

00:08:22   And this was also, this was before iFixit did the teardown. So like, I searched online

00:08:26   to try to answer your question just to make sure, like, has anyone done a teardown to

00:08:29   just verify this? And there hadn't been one yet. So the best they could do is, like, I'm

00:08:33   not going to open mine up, so I'm like, "Alright, let me just guess. Let me look at it." You

00:08:37   know? Or listen to it. Anyway, I was, Casey, to your point, I've been checking the iFixit

00:08:41   site since like, the time it had.

00:08:42   Oh, I know you have.

00:08:44   after it right after the keynote because I'm like maybe someone got review units maybe

00:08:47   iFixit is tearing them apart you know because I was actually actively looking at iFixit

00:08:51   like every day to see for a tear down but I knew two people who had this thing so I

00:08:55   asked them to confirm and they both either said I don't think so I can't tell or it just

00:09:01   doesn't seem like there's a fan and so when I had the Apple employees say definitively

00:09:04   there's no fan I believe and this Apple employees excuse was that they couldn't tell that they

00:09:10   couldn't they thought there was no fan because they couldn't hear anything because it was

00:09:13   totally silent. So they're like, "Yeah, my bad." So anyway.

00:09:15   It's suspicious because when you look at the bottom of it, it has a round pattern of air

00:09:21   holes. The previous one had a solid bottom. It seemed to have no ventilation at all.

00:09:26   That's why this came up, by the way, because I was tipped off either during or right after

00:09:30   the keynote of a public document on Apple site that showed the line art view of the

00:09:35   thing showing the measurements and stuff. And it showed the holes. And it's like, "Uh-oh,

00:09:39   holes. Mm, what does that mean?"

00:09:41   I was like I was I was using the Apple TV like letting it play content and I lifted up and I I

00:09:46   Hear nothing. I like I mean I muted the sound so I so it'd be a quiet room lift it up. I hear nothing

00:09:52   I put my hand under the vents to try to see if I could feel air movement

00:09:56   I felt nothing and I was like, well, what are these holes for me?

00:10:00   Maybe it's just passively cooling by convection using these holes like with a big heat sink inside who knows but I'm like

00:10:06   I'm like, I really don't think there's a fan here, but it is weird

00:10:09   there's these holes in a circular pattern here that would be perfect if you had a fan

00:10:12   behind it. But I could feel or hear nothing.

00:10:15   Yeah, and I'm not quite sure, even after seeing the teardown, like, you know, a convection

00:10:20   or a passive cooling with holes, like, that makes perfect sense, a lot of things that

00:10:23   we don't like that, but there's no holes in the top of this, right? Only holes in the

00:10:26   bottom?

00:10:27   Yeah, it seems like there's no intake holes. But, so, my theory here, like, if you've ever

00:10:31   done any kind of, like, you know, PC building with heat sink design, you know that, or if

00:10:36   if you have better grasp on science than me,

00:10:38   you probably already know this as well.

00:10:39   But you know that like, you know, a passive,

00:10:41   just a heat sink with no fan on it,

00:10:44   when you compare the cooling power of that

00:10:46   to a heat sink that has even a little slight bit

00:10:50   of air movement being pushed over it,

00:10:52   it's a huge difference.

00:10:53   Like you can have a fan running at incredibly low speed

00:10:58   and that will make a big difference

00:11:00   from having no fan at all.

00:11:01   So I'm guessing this fan is probably

00:11:04   dynamically controlled, first of all.

00:11:05   So I bet when I felt nothing under there,

00:11:07   I bet it actually wasn't spinning

00:11:08   or it was spinning at a ridiculously low speed.

00:11:11   And maybe only if you're like really pushing it hard,

00:11:13   like using 3D stuff in a game,

00:11:15   maybe that's when it spins up.

00:11:17   But like playing 4K video,

00:11:19   it was not doing anything noticeable.

00:11:21   So I'm guessing it's just a very low speed fan

00:11:24   that might've even not been spinning at all

00:11:25   during video playback.

00:11:27   - I bet it's always spinning, but that's just a guess.

00:11:29   But anyway, when I get this thing,

00:11:30   I will tell you if I can hear it.

00:11:32   And the reason you should believe me,

00:11:33   that I'll be honest is because--

00:11:34   - There's no way you're gonna hear it.

00:11:35   No, it's because Marco sent me an airport router

00:11:39   that he didn't want anymore that has a fan in it.

00:11:41   And I was like, oh, fan, I knew it had a fan in it.

00:11:43   I'm like, I don't know if I want this thing with the fan.

00:11:45   And he sent it to me.

00:11:46   And as I think I said on the show when I got it,

00:11:48   it has a fan, but the only way I can hear it

00:11:52   is if I literally shove my ear like,

00:11:54   so it is touching the bottom of the device.

00:11:56   That is the only, and I can hear it when I do that.

00:11:58   I can hear that it's turning,

00:12:00   but in every other scenario, I cannot hear it.

00:12:02   Not like, oh, I can hear it faintly.

00:12:03   You can turn off every device in my house,

00:12:05   close all the windows, make sure everything is dead silent,

00:12:07   and I can be two feet away from it,

00:12:09   and I can't hear a damn thing.

00:12:10   So if the Apple TV is even remotely as quiet

00:12:14   because it is like 10 feet away from me

00:12:16   in my TV entertainment center, it'll be fine.

00:12:19   That said, if I put it up to my ear

00:12:21   and actually physically touch it in my ear,

00:12:23   I expect to be able to hear it if the fan is moving.

00:12:25   So we'll see.

00:12:25   I'm gonna get mine.

00:12:26   Mine's delivering next week.

00:12:27   So next show, I will be able to give you an answer.

00:12:30   - Mm-hmm, I'm skeptical.

00:12:32   I feel like you've been

00:12:33   The thing is like what I'm getting at is I won't care if I can hear it when I put up to me ear because I

00:12:37   Can't hear what if I can't hear it the same thing. I don't care about my airport thing

00:12:40   I don't care that I can I don't use it shove that to my ear

00:12:43   It's not you know it's not a communicator that I have to jam into my ear

00:12:47   It's way over there, so I'm perfectly happy to have fans that I literally can't hear we'll see

00:12:52   I expect the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth

00:12:55   I will give it to you. I was suggesting to Jason and Marco like stick a toothpick in there and if something hits it

00:13:01   it.

00:13:02   Wow.

00:13:03   That's not a bad idea.

00:13:04   That's a great idea.

00:13:05   This is before they had the teardown.

00:13:06   I'm like, "Look, is there a fan or is there no fan?

00:13:07   Is there a fan that you can't hear or is there literally no fan?"

00:13:09   And now we know the answer.

00:13:10   There's actually a fan in there.

00:13:11   We just don't know whether it's spinning all the time, yada, yada.

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00:14:57   [Music]

00:15:01   So tell me about downloading movies from iTunes.

00:15:03   Is that a thing on this box?

00:15:06   Not 4K ones, apparently.

00:15:07   This is from Apple Support Document.

00:15:08   You can download a local copy of an HD movie.

00:15:11   By the way, I hate the fact that HD doesn't refer to 4K, because what is 4K if not high

00:15:15   definition or even higher definition, anyway?

00:15:17   Well, it is HiFi.

00:15:19   Yeah, yeah.

00:15:20   And you might be able to download—this is the direct quote—you can download a local

00:15:24   copy of HD movie, and you might be able to download HDR and Dolby Vision versions. What

00:15:30   do you mean I might? Like, maybe you'll let me, maybe you won't?

00:15:33   That's from Apple's support document? It says you might be able to do this?

00:15:36   Yes. Maybe some are downloaded, right? And it says, and then finally the last clause,

00:15:40   but you can't download a 4K version. Now, why can't I download a 4K version? I have

00:15:45   some theories on this. The one theory that people have put forward is like, oh, the 4K

00:15:49   versions are too big, and the as previously discussed and lamented theoretical fixed size

00:15:53   where you can download stuff that's not big enough to fit a single 4K movie or it would

00:15:57   take up all the space, right?

00:15:58   It's like, "Oh, they're just too big to download."

00:16:00   I don't think that's the case, especially if they're HEVC, they shouldn't be that much,

00:16:05   you know, they shouldn't be like 50 gigabytes versus five.

00:16:07   They should be bigger than the HD ones, but not like so big that you can't download a

00:16:11   single one of them.

00:16:12   Although maybe they just say, "Look, one of them is so big, it would take up all your

00:16:15   space and we don't want to do that," right?

00:16:19   Another possibility is that, as is always, you got to always have this as a possibility,

00:16:22   that content owners are stupid and are like, "No, we can't let them download the 4K version

00:16:27   because then people might be able to pirate our movies.

00:16:29   And as long as we stop them from downloading the 4K DRM-encumbered version of our movies

00:16:34   to their Apple TVs, there's no way anyone will ever pirate this movie and we'll be safe

00:16:38   from piracy.

00:16:39   So please don't let anybody download the 4K."

00:16:41   That's definitely it.

00:16:43   That's definitely the answer.

00:16:44   It's such a dumb thing.

00:16:45   I still, in this day and age where people...

00:16:48   Anyway, we don't know why, but the bottom line is if you were thinking that you were

00:16:51   going to be able to get to buy the big Apple TV so that you could download a 4k movie and

00:16:57   then watch it offline on your Apple TV, you will not be able to because the Apple TV will

00:17:01   not download the 4k versions of movies to local storage. It will only stream it. That's

00:17:06   dumb. I don't like it.

00:17:07   So once again, why is the 64 gig version there? Like what?

00:17:12   Well, you know, games. They upped the limits, by the way, on games. It used to be like you

00:17:16   could download like 200 megabytes and then you could download chunks of on-demand content.

00:17:20   They upped it way more so now you can download like a gigabyte or more or something.

00:17:24   Anyway, in theory you could make very large games in Apple's fantasy world of the Apple

00:17:29   TV as an actual gaming console.

00:17:31   You could fill the whole thing with games.

00:17:33   So tell me about boot camp because Randy Garcia has written in to point out to us that as

00:17:38   we, I guess it was John I think, brought up air power as a kind of military term that's

00:17:45   being used by Apple as a product name, which by the way, somebody, did we talk about this

00:17:50   last episode?

00:17:51   Somebody said it should have been called Apple Juice.

00:17:54   Somebody on Twitter said this like right when it was announced, and I think that would have

00:17:56   been a terrible but much better name at the same time.

00:17:59   That would have been hilarious.

00:18:00   But anyway, so Randy Garcia has written in to say that boot camp is another military

00:18:06   term that Apple has used.

00:18:07   And somebody, maybe Randy, has provided a deeply troubling video of Steve Jobs many

00:18:14   years ago trying to act. Do you want to tell us about this, John?

00:18:17   Yeah, so boot camp is the one I hadn't thought of. It's a good thing, a good call, because

00:18:21   I couldn't recall a single Apple product that had a military terminal. Although I would

00:18:25   say the boot camp has got to have been co-opted and made secular, or secular, sort of non-military,

00:18:31   not secular, civilian, yeah, made civilian in a way that AirPower has not, because now

00:18:36   you have like, you know, they have jazzercise boot camps and programming boot camps and

00:18:42   Everything's a boot camp like it's basically just a training place and I guess they're still riffing on the military one

00:18:47   but anyway, the other thing is I

00:18:49   disqualified because

00:18:52   It is internal only company communication and I don't know if you've if you work at a big company, you've probably experienced

00:18:59   communication targeted made by corporations targeted at their own employees and

00:19:04   They're usually pretty awful and you may think that Apple is an exception

00:19:08   But I can tell you that Apple in the 80s and 90s definitely was not an exception

00:19:11   There is a vast collection of internal audio and video content created by Apple for Apple's

00:19:19   employees only that is cringe-worthy and hilarious and some of it's good fun too, right?

00:19:26   It's usually just a bunch of engineers or a bunch of people in HR making a video with

00:19:30   like 80s video technology.

00:19:32   Like they didn't have an iMac with iMovie on it.

00:19:34   They had like, you know, Betamax and VHS and probably fancier professional video stuff.

00:19:40   They didn't have actors.

00:19:41   They had just like their employees.

00:19:44   And I think the one in question is Steve Jobs pretending to be, who is it, is it FDR or

00:19:49   Roosevelt?

00:19:50   I believe that's right.

00:19:51   I think it was FDR.

00:19:52   Anyway, you can watch on YouTube if you want to be sad about internal corporate communications,

00:19:54   but rest assured, Apple was no exception and probably continues to be no exception.

00:19:59   They can make cool things externally, but their internal facing corporate videos are

00:20:06   not quite at the same standard.

00:20:08   Our final piece of follow-up today is from a friend of the show, Sam Butwelsamid, who

00:20:13   is of the Wheel Bearings podcast.

00:20:14   This is all going to come up again later in the after show.

00:20:17   This was with regard to our comments about the Acura TLX that I had driven, or excuse

00:20:22   me, had ridden in.

00:20:23   He wrote to us to say, "With regard to the comments about the DCT, the torque converter

00:20:28   is mounted between the flywheel and the dual clutch pack and is intended to provide some

00:20:32   torque multiplication and smooth out the shifts a bit.

00:20:35   It's work, but it's nothing to get worked up about."

00:20:37   and he provided a link to some more info.

00:20:39   That strikes me as super freaking weird.

00:20:42   Like the whole reason I tend to hate automatics

00:20:44   is because of that like, that mushy feeling

00:20:47   that a torque converter brings,

00:20:48   and I understand the motivation here.

00:20:49   The motivation makes sense, but it's just,

00:20:51   you're taking away the one thing I love about a DCT,

00:20:54   which is that I feel, it feels more direct to me

00:20:56   than a traditional automatic.

00:20:58   - The one thing I could see here is that

00:21:00   when you're driving a DCT,

00:21:01   the shifting between like first and second,

00:21:04   like when you're going at low speeds,

00:21:06   and you're using first and second gear,

00:21:08   that can be very jerky, just like if you do it in a stick.

00:21:11   You know, if you're selling into a market

00:21:12   that is accustomed to automatics,

00:21:14   that might feel too jerky to them.

00:21:15   - Yeah.

00:21:16   - If you're selling to stick people,

00:21:17   it's gonna feel perfectly awesome and normal,

00:21:19   but if you're selling to automatic people,

00:21:21   I see why they would do that.

00:21:23   I agree with you, though, that at that point,

00:21:25   why not just use a really good eight or nine speed auto?

00:21:28   And maybe that's why their premium option

00:21:30   is just a nine or eight speed auto.

00:21:33   So again, I would prefer a DCT that's just a DCT

00:21:38   without anything in front of it,

00:21:39   but I do see for the market they're selling

00:21:42   why they do that, but it just doesn't make sense to me

00:21:44   that they would bother with a DCT at all at that point.

00:21:46   - I think there's a limitation of current DCTs

00:21:49   that they can't be that smooth down at low speeds, right?

00:21:52   Because if someone using a manual can be, right?

00:21:55   They just slip the clutch more.

00:21:56   You could start and stop as smooth as you want

00:21:58   and apparently that's not within the realm of,

00:22:02   within the functional envelope of modern DCTs, most of which are tuned to shift very fast,

00:22:06   like at the higher speeds, but not so much tuned for creeping out of a parking lot and rounding the

00:22:13   corner on a residential road and you get a little bit of a bump. And the TLX, again, trying to split

00:22:17   the difference between the TSX and the TL and erring on the side of being boring, as always,

00:22:22   like the most important thing is not to jostle the occupants. So they took a sporty transmission and

00:22:31   put a little bit of slush in between it and the wheels to smooth things out at low speeds.

00:22:37   Maybe it would be better if the torque converter wasn't a factor at higher speeds or anything,

00:22:41   but either way it's such a sort of Frankenstein setup that it does seem much cleaner to either

00:22:48   have an automatic or you got a stick or a DCT and they all have their own behaviors

00:22:53   and trying to combine them into sort of a hybrid suspension with the best of all worlds

00:22:56   is just kind of papering over the flaws.

00:22:59   Like it used to be when we had single clutch automated manuals that they were super rough,

00:23:03   right?

00:23:04   And there was slow shifting and very jerky, and a dual clutch really helped because you

00:23:07   could have the other gear set ready to go and swap very quickly without the harshness,

00:23:12   right?

00:23:13   But apparently there's still problems at low speed.

00:23:15   And so I feel like in another five, ten years they work out the details on DCTs, they'd

00:23:21   be the one who needed a hack like this.

00:23:22   But anyway, TLX is not a great car anyway.

00:23:24   There are a lot of better choices in that price range.

00:23:27   Fair enough. We've now lost all of the listeners who don't really care about cars. So sorry,

00:23:32   everyone. You can come back now. We're back, and we're going to talk Ask ATP.

00:23:37   So let's begin with Colin Weir, who writes, "John's rant about tech people forgetting

00:23:44   that betas are betas reminded me of a question I have. A lot of the times on iOS betas I

00:23:48   will find bugs in apps that I report to developers to say, 'Hey, this doesn't work on the iOS

00:23:53   and beta. I usually get a response along the lines of, "Yes, this is a beta. Betas aren't

00:23:57   supported." And then I'll often see rants from people like Tapots Paul complaining about

00:24:01   people saying things are broken on betas. But an inherent part of the beta experience

00:24:06   is reporting bugs. In fact, that's the reason betas exist. So if I want to be a good citizen

00:24:10   and beta user and report issues I find, how can I do it without annoying developers?

00:24:13   >> This is pretty simple, really. So, you know, when you're on a beta, keep in mind

00:24:18   that in some cases the developer has not had time

00:24:22   to fix the bug that you are reporting,

00:24:23   'cause like the beta just came out

00:24:25   and they got it the same time you did.

00:24:26   In a lot of cases, the developer can't fix the bug

00:24:29   that you're reporting until the GM SDK comes out,

00:24:32   which could be months later, right before the GM,

00:24:34   right before the version is released to the public.

00:24:37   So mainly because we can't submit builds to the app store

00:24:42   that use the beta SDK until the GM is out.

00:24:45   The app store won't accept them.

00:24:46   So, if you're telling someone that this is broken

00:24:50   in the form of like a complaint,

00:24:52   like I demand that you fix this quickly, dammit,

00:24:55   that's really frustrating for developers to hear

00:24:57   because they probably know about that already

00:25:01   and they probably can't fix it yet

00:25:03   or haven't had a chance to fix it yet

00:25:04   and it doesn't really matter 'cause it's still a beta.

00:25:07   If you are trying to leave an AST review in some ways,

00:25:10   fortunately iOS has prevented this in recent versions.

00:25:14   Like usually you aren't able to leave reviews

00:25:16   from betas anymore, from beta OSs anymore, which is nice.

00:25:19   That would also be a thing not to do.

00:25:21   But if you're just telling somebody in a civil way,

00:25:23   like, hey, there's this bug,

00:25:24   I thought you might wanna know about it,

00:25:25   that's totally fine, and we, as developers,

00:25:28   need that and appreciate that, that's good.

00:25:30   So as long as it's not a one-star review

00:25:33   or using the tone or phrasing of a complaint

00:25:36   that you expected to be fixed, all of a sudden, it's fine.

00:25:40   - Well, I think the key part here is

00:25:42   how do I be a good beta user?

00:25:43   What are you a beta user of?

00:25:45   If you're a beta user of the operating system,

00:25:47   you should be reporting bugs to Apple,

00:25:49   not to third-party developers.

00:25:50   The only way you should be reporting bugs

00:25:51   to third-party developers is if you are on

00:25:53   like the overcast beta and Marco wants to know,

00:25:57   here's a beta of overcast, how does it work?

00:25:59   And in that case, Marco would probably tell you,

00:26:01   I want you to test this beta on a released version

00:26:04   of the operating system, right?

00:26:06   Because no third-party developers are going to support

00:26:09   their applications on unreleased versions

00:26:11   of the operating system.

00:26:12   They may ask, they may use it themselves

00:26:14   and ask their beta testers to use it,

00:26:15   but they inevitably want to know

00:26:18   how is this going to work on the real release version.

00:26:20   So if you're not a beta tester

00:26:22   of the application you're reporting bugs on,

00:26:24   you don't have to feel like you have to be

00:26:25   a good beta citizen because you're not on that beta.

00:26:28   If you're beta testing iOS,

00:26:30   the way to be a good citizen

00:26:31   is report bugs you find in the OS.

00:26:34   Now, does Apple want to know

00:26:36   that some third-party application you have

00:26:38   doesn't work on it?

00:26:40   Probably not, but you know,

00:26:43   it's a giant black hole.

00:26:44   Throw over whatever bug reports you want,

00:26:46   let them do with what they want.

00:26:48   But I would say what Apple is looking for

00:26:50   are bugs in the operating system itself,

00:26:52   of which there are usually plenty.

00:26:54   And if you want to be a good beta system

00:26:55   and you want to report bugs, do that, right?

00:26:59   And if you want to report bugs on third-party iOS apps,

00:27:02   talk to the developer and say,

00:27:03   hey, can I be on your beta program?

00:27:05   The next time you have a beta, ready, send it to me,

00:27:07   and I will try it and report bugs,

00:27:09   and they would appreciate that.

00:27:10   - Everything John just said is wrong.

00:27:12   Thank you.

00:27:13   (laughing)

00:27:15   Wow.

00:27:16   - What are you trying to say?

00:27:17   You don't want people to report bugs in Overcast?

00:27:18   Or you want them to report bugs about

00:27:20   how your application doesn't work on beta OSs?

00:27:23   - The idea that I would only want bug reports

00:27:26   from Overcast beta users is completely wrong.

00:27:28   - Well no, but like I'm saying,

00:27:29   if you want to be a good beta citizen,

00:27:32   like they're not a beta citizen if they're not using,

00:27:34   like how would they even get to Overcast beta

00:27:36   if they're not on your beta, you see what I'm saying?

00:27:37   - No, but if you're using my app on a beta OS

00:27:40   and you run into a bug, I would like to know about that.

00:27:43   Chances are I probably already know about it,

00:27:45   but what if I don't?

00:27:47   My beta groups are really small,

00:27:49   and most of the time I don't have a current beta running.

00:27:51   So I wanna know about that stuff.

00:27:53   And the idea that you should only report bugs on the OS

00:27:57   if you're testing an OS beta is totally wrong.

00:28:00   I don't know any developer who wouldn't want those reports.

00:28:02   - Well that's how you'd be a good beta citizen,

00:28:05   because you're testing a beta of the OS.

00:28:07   Tapbot's Paul apparently doesn't wanna hear

00:28:09   your complaints about their broken things,

00:28:10   because they know they're broken on the beta iOS.

00:28:12   - Well no, but again, I think it's a difference of tone.

00:28:14   It's a difference of like, hey, just so you know,

00:28:16   this is broken, versus I demand that you fix this.

00:28:19   You know, that's a very different tone,

00:28:21   and one of them is helpful and one of them is not.

00:28:25   - I think even just reporting, especially if it's

00:28:27   a well-known bug, or reporting it,

00:28:29   like, there's almost no way to say it

00:28:31   if you were the 900th person telling somebody

00:28:34   that their app crashes on launch in the iOS 11 beta.

00:28:37   Like, there's almost no way you can say that.

00:28:39   that's not going to eventually drive people crazy.

00:28:40   And I feel like, I don't think that's a particularly useful

00:28:44   thing to be doing, especially if it's something

00:28:46   like crashes on launch.

00:28:47   If the developer doesn't know that,

00:28:48   they don't care about the app anymore,

00:28:50   and it's hopeless, right?

00:28:52   Chances are good they know it crashes on launch,

00:28:55   and they're addressing it.

00:28:56   - Well, what if it only crashes on launch

00:28:58   on a phone you don't use?

00:28:59   - I don't know.

00:29:00   - That's why I can't think of a situation

00:29:04   where I would not want those reports,

00:29:05   even if I'm getting 100 of them.

00:29:06   Then I'll tweet from the account saying,

00:29:08   "Hey, just so you know I know about this,

00:29:09   "thanks for your reports."

00:29:10   Then you could not report the same thing again.

00:29:12   But if something like that happens, I wanna know.

00:29:16   To be a good citizen, don't expect a response.

00:29:19   (laughs)

00:29:21   If the developer's getting tons of them,

00:29:23   then they won't be able to respond to all of them.

00:29:24   But yeah, by all means, please tell us.

00:29:28   That's the point of betas,

00:29:30   even if they aren't our software in beta,

00:29:32   even if it's the OS software in beta,

00:29:34   we still need to know that kind of stuff.

00:29:36   I think we need to survey more developers to ask them if they really want people testing

00:29:40   their applications on beta OSes and giving them bug reports because I have almost always

00:29:44   heard the opposite.

00:29:45   That please do not send me reports of how my application doesn't work on a beta version

00:29:50   of the OS because it's not like, it's almost like a support function.

00:29:54   Don't contact me through support channels if you're not on my beta to tell me that my

00:29:58   application doesn't work on a beta OS.

00:30:00   Like they just don't want to hear it.

00:30:01   And maybe they're just frustrated, maybe you're right it's just about tone and all I ever

00:30:04   here is the frustrated complaint, and really it's super valuable for them, and they just

00:30:07   eventually reach their limit and snap. But I've always heard the opposite. Not that

00:30:12   I'm sending these reports, by the way. You just gave them for the podcast. I'm being

00:30:17   a good beta citizen. I don't even send Apple the bug reports.

00:30:22   Mike Paul writes to ask, "Do you think APFS will be supported on Fusion drives in future

00:30:26   builds of High Sierra?" So, Chief Summarizer and Chief, summary, APFS was supported on

00:30:31   Fusion Drives, which are these kind of weirdo scenarios where you have a spinning disk and

00:30:36   a SSD that is kind of melded to be one volume.

00:30:41   I'm sure that's not going to satisfy Jon, but for the purposes of this conversation,

00:30:45   that's all you need to know.

00:30:47   And so they were supported in betas of High Sierra, and then when the GM happened, oh,

00:30:52   just kidding, there is no Fusion Drive support for you, so you're going to have to reformat

00:30:57   to HFS+ if you want to go to High Sierra.

00:31:00   So the question is, do you think, I guess John, do you think that this will be supported

00:31:05   in future builds?

00:31:06   Yes, I do, because Apple has shipped a lot of Fusion drives, and I think they don't want

00:31:10   AWS Plus hanging around, and they almost had it working, so they'll eventually get it working.

00:31:17   I expect it.

00:31:18   What is future?

00:31:19   How many points do we have to go through?

00:31:21   How difficult is it?

00:31:22   I don't know, but I do expect it.

00:31:23   I'll be surprised if it's not supported.

00:31:26   Also, Craig Federighi sent an email to somebody allegedly saying, yes, it's coming in a future

00:31:30   version basically.

00:31:31   There you go.

00:31:32   Oh, fair enough.

00:31:33   All right, well that's it for Ask ATP.

00:31:35   As always, you can tweet your questions with the hashtag #AskATP and our magic spreadsheet

00:31:41   will find them and pick them up and then we will answer them if we think they're good

00:31:46   enough.

00:31:47   No pressure.

00:31:48   With continued apologies to the Upgrade Podcast, where we stole this from.

00:31:49   We don't need to apologize.

00:31:51   They've been amply credited.

00:31:55   We are sponsored this week by Jamf Now.

00:31:58   Jamf now helps you manage your Apple devices from anywhere.

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00:32:03   it's pretty easy to keep track of your own stuff,

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00:32:10   for your employees and you start to have more employees,

00:32:13   it gets really hard to keep track and manage

00:32:15   everyone's Macs, iPhones, and iPads.

00:32:18   Figuring out, for instance, how to secure the iPad

00:32:21   that a salesperson just lost can be pretty hard,

00:32:24   especially when you aren't even on site

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00:33:12   - All right, so it sounds like all three households

00:33:19   have received new toys in the last week,

00:33:21   although not all three hosts.

00:33:23   So the Apple Watch Series 3 is out.

00:33:27   They have been received as of this past Friday

00:33:31   by those who had pre-ordered basically

00:33:33   at the obscene hour of three in the morning

00:33:35   if you live on the East Coast like all three of us do.

00:33:37   So all three households have received them.

00:33:40   Marco, you and or Tiff have one?

00:33:43   How many did you get for the two of you all?

00:33:45   - Just one.

00:33:46   Tiff decided she didn't want one.

00:33:47   - Okay.

00:33:48   And then I got one for myself

00:33:50   and actually Erin got a non-cell one for her.

00:33:53   Although for Erin and Tiff, by the way, what were their reasons for saying they don't want

00:33:57   Cell?

00:33:58   Well, Tiff decided she didn't want the watch at all.

00:34:01   Okay, well that settles that.

00:34:04   For Erin, there's never a time she expects to be that far away from her phone to justify

00:34:08   spending the extra money each month.

00:34:10   And Erin likes her watch, I think it's fair to say, but doesn't love her watch.

00:34:18   She views it mostly as a second screen in terms of notifications and very little else.

00:34:24   And so because of that she didn't seem to think it was worth the extra money each month.

00:34:28   And if she wasn't, and if she knew she was never ever ever going to pay for cell service,

00:34:33   then why bother paying the extra money for the cell radio?

00:34:36   But she did want a new watch then.

00:34:37   She's got a new one just because her current watch is slow or you thought she should just

00:34:41   get one so you feel less bad about getting an expensive new watch?

00:34:44   All of the above.

00:34:45   Her current watch, her previous now watch, was a Series Zero, as was mine, and it was

00:34:50   slow, and she has the 38 millimeters, the battery life was getting to be comically bad

00:34:54   after the course of two years, which is to some degrees to be expected.

00:34:59   And I was spending a whole bunch of money on my fancy new watch, and I figured, you

00:35:02   know, if I'm going to get a fancy new watch, then she should get a fancy new watch.

00:35:06   But the solution to spending money and feeling guilty about it is just spend more money.

00:35:09   Yeah, exactly.

00:35:10   Well, yeah.

00:35:11   This is the Marco approach, and now the Casey approach, it seems.

00:35:14   - Have I taught you nothing?

00:35:15   (laughing)

00:35:17   - And so anyway, so yeah, so your wife has

00:35:20   or has not received hers yet.

00:35:22   - She has not received it, it's a birthday gift.

00:35:23   - Okay, so I won't be able to ask you

00:35:26   about your experience then, but I will start

00:35:29   by asking Marco, 'cause I suspect you will not have

00:35:32   too much to say about this, famous last words.

00:35:34   (laughing)

00:35:35   What has your experience been

00:35:36   with your Apple Watch Series 3 with LTE?

00:35:39   - I have not really used the LTE yet,

00:35:42   because I mainly got the LTE so I could build

00:35:45   Overcast with it when the API lets me do that.

00:35:48   And I hope that is soon.

00:35:50   But that is the main reason I got it,

00:35:51   because I know, because all of my customers

00:35:53   were asking for it, so I figured I should,

00:35:55   I need that for testing.

00:35:56   - Hello.

00:35:57   - But the, for the rest of the series three,

00:36:00   it's fantastic.

00:36:02   I mean, it's, the way that the keynote phrased

00:36:05   the speed improvements, it didn't sound like

00:36:07   it was that big of a difference,

00:36:08   it sounded like it was like an incremental speed update.

00:36:11   It's not, it's a massive speed upgrade

00:36:14   from even the Series 2, which itself,

00:36:16   you know, and Series 1, which themselves were

00:36:19   massive speed upgrades from the original Series 0.

00:36:22   If you still have a Series 0 and you are at all

00:36:25   thinking about upgrading, upgrade.

00:36:27   It is an incredibly fast device now.

00:36:30   Not like phone speed, like, it's not that you're

00:36:33   never waiting for anything, but compared to where it was,

00:36:38   it's a huge speed upgrade.

00:36:41   I would agree with that and I'd also like to quickly double down and say that the battery life improvement for me anyway has also been

00:36:49   Tremendous, so I completely agree with you if you're listening to this and you have a series zero watch

00:36:56   And that's the only one I have experience with I can't speak for series one or series two if you have a series zero watch

00:37:01   And you're thinking yeah, maybe it's time. It's time because this is way better both speed wise as Marco said and in my experience

00:37:09   experience so far in battery life as well.

00:37:11   - Keep in mind also with battery life,

00:37:12   I was thinking about this the other day,

00:37:13   like the Apple Watch is so dependent

00:37:16   on having adequate battery life,

00:37:18   like if your watch dies in the middle of the day,

00:37:22   that really makes it a lot less useful to you.

00:37:24   Like if it can't make it the whole,

00:37:25   and this is one of the reasons why Apple's so conservative

00:37:27   about how it spends its power budget,

00:37:29   and it's one of the reasons why the OS is so limited,

00:37:31   why apps are so limited,

00:37:32   because if your phone dies three quarters of the way

00:37:36   through a day, you can plug it in somewhere

00:37:38   for a few minutes and then get back to using it again.

00:37:41   With your watch, that's really inconvenient.

00:37:42   You have to take it off, put it somewhere.

00:37:45   You probably don't even have a lot of extra chargers for it

00:37:47   'cause they're this separate thing.

00:37:48   It's kind of a pain.

00:37:49   It's this giant magnetic disk thing.

00:37:51   So most people are gonna have one charger.

00:37:54   It's gonna be next to their bed at night.

00:37:56   So if your battery life sinks down to the point

00:37:58   where it can't make it a full day,

00:38:01   that dramatically reduces your happiness

00:38:04   and the usefulness of that device.

00:38:06   So because these batteries degrade over time,

00:38:10   I suspect that a lot of people are gonna be replacing them

00:38:13   about every two to three years,

00:38:15   even if they're totally happy with them,

00:38:16   just because the battery will start fading

00:38:19   and it'll cross the point where it's no longer

00:38:21   making it through a full day for them,

00:38:22   and that's gonna suck.

00:38:23   So if you have a Series Zero, and this describes you,

00:38:26   which I've heard this is roughly the time

00:38:28   that that's really starting to happen

00:38:30   with a lot of the Series Zeros,

00:38:31   where the battery's not making it anymore,

00:38:33   if you have a Series Zero and you are at all thinking

00:38:36   upgrading this is a good time to do that and these are great I'm incredibly happy with

00:38:41   it.

00:38:42   Yep agreed.

00:38:43   I'm probably going to have to upgrade eventually too because even though I don't wear my Apple

00:38:45   Watch except for a few weeks a year I do wear it a few weeks a year and my Series 0 it's

00:38:50   I mean the battery is okay but it is it's it's in rough shape like it's so angry at

00:38:55   me because I don't wear it I just leave it on its charger sitting on my you know dresser

00:38:58   or whatever I tried to upgrade to watch OS 4 which took me like three days to complete

00:39:02   because my phone wouldn't connect to it or it would tell me it's downloading or it would

00:39:07   say download or resume when you're connected to Wi-Fi when I was totally on Wi-Fi I'm like

00:39:11   a foot from the Wi-Fi router and everything is connected to Wi-Fi or it said I can't connect

00:39:14   to the phone but the the watch could ping the phone and say it was connected I rebooted

00:39:18   both devices in the end what I had to do was wipe the entire watch and start over and restore

00:39:23   from a backup that's the only way and then I'm restoring from a watch OS 3 backup and

00:39:27   then once that got on then finally I could upgrade to 4 which still takes a year and

00:39:31   day to actually run. but I was I was glad to see that's that big circular

00:39:35   progress bar and the four-hour wait for it to upgrade. so anyway now my series zero

00:39:39   Apple watch is running the new OS but I think I will actually buy a new one I

00:39:42   just I'm I really don't want to because I really like the stainless steel one and

00:39:47   it costs a tremendous amount of money and I rarely wear it. in the end I

00:39:51   probably will get a new one not this year but like next year or the year

00:39:54   after. what will happen is I'll go to WWDC or go on vacation one year and my

00:39:59   my watch won't make it through the day, like Marco said,

00:40:00   and I'll be like, well that's it.

00:40:02   Either I don't have a Baba watch anymore,

00:40:04   I have to buy a new one,

00:40:05   and in the end I'll probably buy a new one.

00:40:06   But not this year.

00:40:08   Although who knows, maybe seeing my wife use her

00:40:10   cool cellular Dick Tracy watch,

00:40:12   it'll convince me that I should get one, but I doubt it.

00:40:15   - Yeah, I mean, hey, if you get one,

00:40:17   you can switch back to your flip phone.

00:40:19   - Oh, God.

00:40:19   - I don't think that's gonna happen.

00:40:21   I think I still have my flip phone somewhere,

00:40:23   but I can't go back.

00:40:24   - Oh, my word.

00:40:25   - And one other thing on the speed, too,

00:40:26   I would say, again, it doesn't make it

00:40:29   like a super fast device, but this is, I think,

00:40:32   this is the first Apple Watch that's not too slow.

00:40:37   - Yeah, I agree with all of that.

00:40:38   So I got my Apple Watch Series 3 late-ish Friday.

00:40:42   I typically go and I do my exercise on Monday, Tuesday,

00:40:47   and Friday, generally speaking,

00:40:48   so it wasn't until this past Monday and Tuesday

00:40:50   that I was able to try going for a run without my phone,

00:40:53   which is kinda weird.

00:40:55   I mean, I've only been running semi-consistently

00:40:57   for a few months.

00:40:58   It's not like I'm some expert, you know,

00:41:00   forever long runner.

00:41:01   And even in just a few months,

00:41:03   I've gotten used to having my phone either in my hand,

00:41:06   careening out of my bum bag

00:41:08   as I'm trying to put it in said bag,

00:41:10   which is why my screen broke,

00:41:11   or bouncing around on my tailbone

00:41:13   as it's in my sort of kind of fanny pack.

00:41:17   Hello, the UK.

00:41:18   - You mean your sit bone?

00:41:19   - Yes, yes, that's totally it, except not at all.

00:41:21   But anyway, the point is,

00:41:24   It was very weird, but immediately very freeing not to have to carry my phone, which is super

00:41:30   cool.

00:41:31   So I put in my AirPods, I had previously downloaded some music onto my watch, connected my AirPods

00:41:40   to my watch, and I started listening to music, started a run in RunKeeper, and went on my

00:41:46   run.

00:41:47   And it was really, really awesome.

00:41:49   There are some problems with this, though.

00:41:51   Number one, I don't want to listen to music, I want to listen to podcasts.

00:41:55   I can barely keep up with all my podcasts as it is, and running is a really great time

00:41:59   for me to plow through, you know, maybe one episode or an episode and a half or whatever

00:42:03   of some of my favorite shows.

00:42:05   And if I don't bring my phone, then I'm not listening to podcasts.

00:42:09   And that's a bummer.

00:42:10   So if only I knew the guy that uses my, that writes my podcast client app, whatever, of

00:42:16   choice, maybe I could put in a good word with him about how I'd really love some overcast

00:42:22   watch support.

00:42:23   And I understand what the problems are, and you wrote a really, really great post about

00:42:26   it, and then this week's Under the Radar, you talked about kind of the same thing, so

00:42:30   as much as I joke, I'm not actually beating you up about it, because I know your hands

00:42:34   are tied.

00:42:35   But please, please Apple, give Marco the tools, give Marco the tools so we can have this nice

00:42:39   thing.

00:42:40   We just want nice things.

00:42:42   But anyway, we've already talked about the battery life.

00:42:45   life is tremendous as compared to previous. I have gone on not only a couple of runs with

00:42:51   the watch, but also I have taken Declan to the little park that's within our neighborhood

00:42:55   a few times. And generally speaking, in the past I brought my phone, which means I'm often

00:43:00   tempted to look at like Twitter or Instagram or whatever instead of playing with Declan

00:43:03   because I'm a terrible father. And not having my phone with me makes it much harder to look

00:43:08   at Twitter or Instagram or what have you because I don't have those apps on my watch. And that's

00:43:13   That's been really awesome.

00:43:15   What has been less awesome is replying to text messages and things like that, because

00:43:18   it seems that about one time in three, the text message just doesn't send.

00:43:26   And when I say text message, I mean both iMessage and text message.

00:43:29   So that's kind of a bummer, kind of a big bummer.

00:43:33   I don't know if that's a software problem.

00:43:34   I don't know if it's a hardware problem.

00:43:36   I'm guessing it's a software thing.

00:43:38   But that really bums me out.

00:43:40   The other thing that's been a little bit troubling is I have seen a very small version of the

00:43:48   bug that about half of the reviewers hit, insofar as, as I run, I'm running in my neighborhood,

00:43:55   and at one point or another, I will pass the house, because I start, you know, a little

00:44:00   bit past the house, I run for a while, pass the house again, and that's where I end.

00:44:04   I end where I started.

00:44:06   And I realized as I was coming to the end of my run, which is close to the house but

00:44:10   past the house, I was attempting to do something, I don't recall exactly what it was, maybe

00:44:14   I was just seeing if what the status was because this is all new to me and I'm trying to figure

00:44:18   out okay how long does it take to get on the cell radio and when does it fall off the cell

00:44:21   radio etc etc.

00:44:23   I noticed as I ran past the house it picked up my Wi-Fi but then it tried to cling to

00:44:31   it longer than it really should have, which I don't really blame the device because it's

00:44:36   of course going to try to power off the cell radio, and it's of course going to try to

00:44:41   hang on to the Wi-Fi because that radio is far less power expensive to keep on.

00:44:47   But what ended up happening was for the last, I don't know, 300 yards of my run, I had no

00:44:53   connectivity because it was still trying to find the Wi-Fi that I had already run past.

00:44:58   So that was kind of a bummer.

00:45:00   In general though, I don't have that problem.

00:45:02   I leave the cell, I leave the software for the cell radio enabled.

00:45:06   And what I mean by that is it can go on cellular anytime it wants.

00:45:10   I have not paid any attention to like turning that off or anything like that.

00:45:13   And 99% of the time my phone is right there, so it wouldn't power the cell radio on anyway.

00:45:19   But it's been maintenance free in that regard, which is really nice.

00:45:24   And so far I really, really, really like it.

00:45:27   I'm glad that I have the cell service for the runs and even more importantly for when I'm out with Declan and I don't want to

00:45:34   be

00:45:35   Attracted to my phone. This is absolutely a first-world problem

00:45:38   It is absolutely a KC problem in that I should just have the self-control not to check Twitter every four seconds or Instagram or what?

00:45:44   Have you but I know myself enough to know that I don't have a tremendous overabundance of self-control

00:45:50   and so removing this problem by removing my phone from the equation is a pretty good way to fix it and

00:45:56   And I almost put Tweetbot on my watch for instances where I'm, say, DMing with somebody

00:46:01   or something like that, and it occurred to me by putting Tweetbot on my watch, I will

00:46:04   be defeating the purpose that I've set out for my watch, which is to say being able to

00:46:10   be distraction-free.

00:46:11   Another couple things I've noticed, once I upgraded to High Sierra and I could use unlock

00:46:15   with my watch again, because apparently there's something that causes issues with the cellular

00:46:20   watch and Sierra in below, so you have to be on High Sierra for your cellular watch

00:46:25   to do watch unlock. Once I upgraded two of my three computers to High Sierra, that has

00:46:31   come back and that seems to be faster than my Series 0 by, generally speaking, a pretty

00:46:35   comfortable margin. Apple Pay is way faster. In the last couple of months that I had my

00:46:40   Series 0, I'd kind of abandoned using Apple Pay on the watch because it was just so much

00:46:44   slower than my phone. And it is a fair bit faster on the Series 3, which I really like.

00:46:51   All in all, the combination of the Apple Watch Series 3 with LTE with AirPods is pretty darn

00:46:59   fantastic.

00:47:00   The only things that I'm really longing for are an update to Runkeeper so it will take

00:47:07   a note of the map of what I ran, because if you use the exercise app that's built into

00:47:11   the watch, it will save a map to your health app.

00:47:14   But Runkeeper hasn't built in support for that API yet, which is a real bummer.

00:47:18   And again, I want podcasts on my watch.

00:47:21   Pretty, please, Apple, please look at Marco's post

00:47:23   and give me podcasts on my watch.

00:47:25   That's all I want, please, please.

00:47:27   - And a volume widget, please, for the love of God.

00:47:31   No one cared about a volume widget on the watch

00:47:33   until AirPods.

00:47:34   And now, because AirPods don't have a good way

00:47:36   to control volume physically on them,

00:47:38   everybody is demanding that, with good reason.

00:47:41   And yeah, I can't offer it.

00:47:42   Like, there is no API for me to offer them a volume widget

00:47:45   for either phone or watch audio levels.

00:47:47   and I just, it kills me.

00:47:50   - Yeah, so those are my thoughts.

00:47:53   I definitely recommend it.

00:47:55   I definitely think it's good.

00:47:56   I definitely am glad I spent the money

00:47:58   on both it and the cellular service on top.

00:48:01   I'm giving it two thumbs up so far.

00:48:04   Really, really love this device.

00:48:06   - Yeah, the only thing I would add is

00:48:08   it seems like what we're seeing with the cellular

00:48:11   holding onto WiFi and everything else,

00:48:14   This is clearly a device that, for power reasons,

00:48:18   has to use the LTE as little as possible.

00:48:21   I would say it's a good device to get,

00:48:25   if you have a specific use case in mind,

00:48:27   like Casey at the park, or running without a phone,

00:48:30   that makes a ton of sense.

00:48:32   I would say don't assume this device

00:48:35   is just gonna be always happily using its LTE

00:48:37   the way an iPad would.

00:48:38   It's going to minimize LTE so aggressively

00:48:42   that it's more useful to think of the LTE thing

00:48:45   as a just in case I need it kind of thing,

00:48:48   like if you're on a run and you don't want to be

00:48:50   without a way to make a phone call in case of an emergency

00:48:52   or you want to be reachable by people,

00:48:54   it makes sense for that, but I wouldn't necessarily say

00:48:58   that it makes sense to buy the LTE version

00:49:01   with the assumption that you'll be using it

00:49:03   just like a tiny phone, because not only is it

00:49:05   very, very conservative with when it uses the LTE at all,

00:49:09   but also app-wise, the apps are not really ready

00:49:12   for that yet.

00:49:13   There were good segments about app readiness

00:49:15   on other podcasts this week.

00:49:16   I know there was a great one on upgrade especially,

00:49:18   and I think a little more on connected.

00:49:20   But basically, yeah, it was connected.

00:49:23   But basically, the apps for Apple Watch

00:49:27   have been written to date with the assumption

00:49:30   that they were using the phone and their corresponding app

00:49:33   on the phone for all their communication.

00:49:36   And the watch really couldn't do much until fairly recently

00:49:40   with its own communication and until last week

00:49:43   that was only on Wi-Fi and because nobody really went

00:49:46   with the watch without their phone and did much with it,

00:49:48   there wasn't much reason to really write the apps for that.

00:49:51   So Apple Watch third party apps still have a,

00:49:54   and even first party apps frankly,

00:49:55   still have a long way to go before they can really make

00:49:59   good use of independent connectivity on the watch

00:50:03   and the hardware probably needs a couple more generations

00:50:05   before it's really able to use the LTE radio

00:50:07   more than occasionally anyway.

00:50:09   So buy it if you want to be reachable

00:50:13   and to have a lifeline, you know,

00:50:14   like that kind of use when you are out without a phone.

00:50:18   But I wouldn't necessarily say buy it

00:50:20   just for like entertainment to go phoneless

00:50:22   like Casey at the park,

00:50:24   because that's not ultimately what it's for

00:50:26   and it's not what it's optimized to do.

00:50:28   - I would agree with that.

00:50:30   - Also, you can bring your phone to the park, man.

00:50:31   Like kids at the park, like, you know, we love our kids,

00:50:34   but like they're there a lot.

00:50:35   It's okay to bring your phone and to look at Instagram

00:50:38   while they're climbing the monkey bars and everything,

00:50:40   when they're not interacting with you,

00:50:42   when they're just running around,

00:50:43   you can look at your phone, it's okay.

00:50:45   I give you permission to do it.

00:50:46   - I mean, you look up and they're gone,

00:50:47   you don't have to blame yourself.

00:50:48   (laughing)

00:50:50   - Yeah, I know.

00:50:52   I think part of the problem is that this particular park,

00:50:54   it's just in the neighborhood,

00:50:55   so it's usual that it's only Declan and I that are there.

00:50:59   And beyond that, he's still in the phase

00:51:00   where everything is daddy this or really mommy this,

00:51:03   and then if mommy isn't there, daddy this.

00:51:06   And so, it's better if I am not distracted

00:51:11   by something else and better

00:51:12   if I'm paying more attention to him.

00:51:13   - Actually, Hamilton Orr in the chat

00:51:15   points out a very good thing.

00:51:16   Bring your phone to take pictures.

00:51:19   Like, as people are realizing they can now go out

00:51:21   into the world with just their watch,

00:51:23   many of them I've seen are also realizing,

00:51:25   oh, crap, I don't have a camera when I do that,

00:51:28   and I'm used to always having a camera.

00:51:30   - Yeah, the thing is, and actually,

00:51:32   Mike and I talked about this very briefly

00:51:34   on the forthcoming episode of Analog,

00:51:36   but if I was going to bring a camera to the park,

00:51:40   I would probably bring the big camera

00:51:42   because I think the pictures are much, much, much better

00:51:46   coming off of that.

00:51:47   Now, once I get my fancy iPhone 10 in 2020

00:51:50   when it's finally available,

00:51:51   then that might change when I have my fancy,

00:51:53   you know, two lens camera system.

00:51:55   But for now, I would be more apt to bring watch

00:52:00   and big camera than I would be watch and phone.

00:52:04   That's actually a reasonable plan. I like that.

00:52:06   - Yeah, but I mean, obviously this is kind of a unique

00:52:08   to Casey use case, and that may not be the case

00:52:10   for everyone else.

00:52:11   But I would agree with what you said a minute ago.

00:52:14   Like if you have, if you the listener have a particular

00:52:17   set of times that you think this would be useful to you,

00:52:20   for example, exercise, particularly in a situation

00:52:24   where you don't have access to wifi or anything else.

00:52:27   So often, but not always outdoor exercise.

00:52:29   Or if you just are like me

00:52:32   don't have very good self-control, then I think having a watch with LTE makes sense.

00:52:37   And certainly one of the nice things is, if you wanted to just see what you thought, you

00:52:42   could get a watch with LTE and just choose not to enable it.

00:52:45   So yes, it's I think 70 extra dollars up front, but you don't have to incur that monthly fee

00:52:50   until you feel like you might want it.

00:52:54   But if you don't really have a particular use like that in mind, I agree with Marco

00:52:59   that may not really be worth the money.

00:53:03   What do you think of the red dot now that you have it?

00:53:06   - I wish the red dot wasn't there.

00:53:09   - Agreed.

00:53:10   - I have yet to see any model except the white ceramic

00:53:14   where I think it looks good.

00:53:16   I think it looks okay or passable on the steel ones

00:53:20   and maybe okay on the gold aluminum one,

00:53:23   but that's about the best I could say about it.

00:53:28   - Yeah, fair enough.

00:53:29   I think I feel the same way.

00:53:31   I wish it wasn't there.

00:53:33   I wish I had an option to not have it there.

00:53:36   - There's always watch dots.

00:53:39   - Yeah, I know, but I don't trust myself to apply it

00:53:43   in such a way that it won't look like garbage,

00:53:45   the watch dot that is.

00:53:46   - Yeah, yeah, I'd be afraid of that too.

00:53:48   - Yeah, if I could, I do believe if I could pay

00:53:53   a little bit of extra money to have a version

00:53:57   without the Dot, I probably would have.

00:53:59   - You gotta find somebody who paints miniatures

00:54:02   and go in there with some enamel and very carefully paint.

00:54:05   You'll never notice it, it'll be practically perfect.

00:54:08   - Yeah, something like that.

00:54:09   I don't know, but overall, I was expecting to like the watch.

00:54:13   You know, I am a pretty big fan

00:54:15   of the Apple Watch as a platform,

00:54:17   and I was expecting to like this new one a fair bit.

00:54:20   And it turns out I really like this new watch a lot.

00:54:23   So it is a very worthwhile upgrade.

00:54:26   The cell, like we just discussed, maybe, maybe not.

00:54:29   For me, absolutely.

00:54:31   Marco, I suspect if and when you get overcast working

00:54:34   and if and when you decide to ditch your phone

00:54:37   for bike rides, I think you'll be more enthusiastic

00:54:39   about the cellular radio.

00:54:41   But in general, I can see that one going either way.

00:54:44   But yeah, I definitely say this is a worthwhile upgrade

00:54:47   and I'm super duper happy with my purchase.

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00:56:30   [Music]

00:56:34   All right, Jon.

00:56:36   So tell me about High Sierra and tell me, I have upgraded my MacBook Adorable.

00:56:41   I have upgraded my work computer.

00:56:43   Am I allowed to upgrade my iMac that I'm recording on as we speak?

00:56:46   Not to say that I'm going to upgrade as we're recording, of course,

00:56:50   but am I allowed to upgrade my iMac, Jon?

00:56:53   What's the deal?

00:56:54   - You can do what you want.

00:56:55   It's your iMac.

00:56:56   (laughing)

00:56:57   All right, so what is the official Jon Siracusa review

00:57:01   of macOS High Sierra?

00:57:03   - Review is I still haven't used it.

00:57:06   (laughing)

00:57:07   - Oh my word, Jon.

00:57:08   - I have literally never used it

00:57:10   'cause I didn't install any of the betas

00:57:12   and I don't have it on any of my Macs.

00:57:14   Now why don't I have it on any of my Macs?

00:57:15   Well, obviously, the Mac Pro that I'm talking to right now

00:57:17   can't run it.

00:57:18   I never did do the whatever, you know, firmware upgrade

00:57:22   trickery to make it run Sierra

00:57:23   and therefore also run High Sierra.

00:57:25   I probably never will.

00:57:26   So that's that.

00:57:28   My work computer, we are not allowed to install it

00:57:31   at work yet because of some active directory bugs

00:57:33   that are supposedly fixed in the 1013.1 beta.

00:57:36   But right now, if you try to install it,

00:57:38   one of our works incredibly invasive,

00:57:41   please don't let me know how this actually works.

00:57:45   Hackery things is when you double click

00:57:46   the sierra installer a dialogue pops up with a message written by our corporate it that

00:57:51   says you can't install it.

00:57:53   i'm hoping they didn't patch the binary of the installer but whatever mechanism they

00:57:57   have to intercept the launch of a particular application and throw up an arbitrary message

00:58:00   in a dialogue, god i don't even want to know.

00:58:03   so anyway i can upgrade the work one that would be the one i would be most likely to

00:58:07   upgrade because i would have some faith that the it team that i was just complaining about

00:58:11   had tested it and made sure all our stuff works on it.

00:58:14   And it's like practically brand new, like it's all fresh and like I haven't done anything

00:58:17   weird to it so if any computer is gonna work okay with it it's gonna be that one.

00:58:22   And then finally my wife's computer which I thought I was gonna upgrade on day one,

00:58:25   I found myself with cold feet.

00:58:28   Not so much about APFS, although there are some issues with that, like SuperDuper that

00:58:33   I used to clone just now has like beta support for cloning from it.

00:58:37   But really I'm getting cold feet about the point zero.

00:58:40   And in a way I didn't with Sierra, I just, I don't know, maybe it's the combination,

00:58:45   like just the .0 is not enough to scare me away, and just the APFS is not enough to scare

00:58:49   me away with both of them.

00:58:50   I'm hedging.

00:58:51   So I've downloaded the installer and I've done like a fresh round of backups and clones

00:58:55   and made sure all my backups are good and you know, I've done all this stuff, I'm all

00:58:58   ready to install, but I thought I would pull the trigger and it's just like I'm not pulling

00:59:03   the trigger.

00:59:04   Mostly what I would be upgrading for is the new version of photos, not for APFS, because

00:59:08   Obviously, I like that and I want it and I'll get it eventually, but I want to try the new version of photos

00:59:12   But that has me a little bit scared too

00:59:13   So I may turn out that I just wait for the point one, especially if the point one is due out soon

00:59:20   But right now I've been too much of a wimp to try it

00:59:23   So I'm just I'm just in a holding pattern

00:59:25   waiting to see other things a lot other people go first and see what kind of

00:59:29   Disasters befall them and this is kind of weird for me because I upgraded almost all the other ones

00:59:33   I always upgraded my wife's computer like as soon as it comes out just you know

00:59:36   Why not everything's fine, but this time I don't know it's just me

00:59:40   I don't think there's anything particular about high Sierra because again, I haven't used any of the beta

00:59:43   so I have nothing to base my fears on but I think

00:59:46   The combo of APFS and the point zero is keeping me away

00:59:50   Hmm. I am surprised by that me too. So Marco have you have you upgraded anything yet Marco only my laptop

00:59:57   I I would like to upgrade my desktop mostly for the media format support

01:00:02   But I really that's pretty much the only thing that is really compelling for me right now. And and the thing is like

01:00:09   You know, I've really been burned a lot it by the last few Mac OS releases, you know

01:00:13   Like ever since like the discovery D fiasco

01:00:16   pretty much every almost every major version of Mac OS in the last few years has

01:00:22   Broken some subsystem that I rely on for a little while, you know

01:00:26   Sometimes for the entire release cycle like I'm pretty sure Sierra

01:00:31   still messes up Bluetooth input devices.

01:00:34   Like I still think Bluetooth is messed up in Sierra.

01:00:37   And you know, some people have reported,

01:00:40   were reporting USB audio bugs earlier on

01:00:43   in Sierra's life cycle and stuff.

01:00:44   And like, you know, this is my work machine.

01:00:46   I can't afford downtime of my Mac, of my main Mac here.

01:00:51   I do my entire job here.

01:00:53   The idea of taking a risk on High Sierra

01:00:57   in, you know, early on in its life cycle,

01:00:59   With Sierra, I kinda know, it's kinda like the devil you know,

01:01:02   it's like I know Sierra is buggy

01:01:05   with Bluetooth pointing devices,

01:01:06   so it's like I'm used to my mouse and trackpad

01:01:09   just occasionally just disconnecting for no reason

01:01:11   and then reconnecting.

01:01:12   I've gotten used to that now.

01:01:15   With Hi Sierra, I don't know what

01:01:16   this year's Discovery D is yet.

01:01:18   I've heard lots of reports

01:01:19   that it's the Windows Server rewrite.

01:01:21   And I don't know, when I ask people on Twitter,

01:01:25   like hey, is Hi Sierra okay or not?

01:01:27   what have been your experiences,

01:01:30   the responses were pretty evenly split between

01:01:33   it's totally perfect, I've had no problems,

01:01:35   and oh my god, it's been a disaster for,

01:01:38   mostly for the Windows Server things.

01:01:40   So I assume that it mostly works

01:01:44   if you're doing things the way Apple wants you to do,

01:01:45   but if you have some kind of workflow or setup

01:01:50   that puts a strain on edge cases of the Windows Server,

01:01:54   so for instance, if you are frequently connecting

01:01:56   or disconnecting monitors or using clamshell mode maybe.

01:01:59   Like that kind of thing, I bet,

01:02:01   it's probably more likely to have bugs

01:02:04   related to the Windows Server stuff than--

01:02:06   - Or if you have a particular GPU,

01:02:07   like some particular NVIDIA GPU of a particular,

01:02:10   isn't Steve Trout and Smith have some computer

01:02:12   with some particular GPU that just kernel panics

01:02:15   based on a clock, like he can just time it

01:02:17   and 30 minutes in and kernel panics.

01:02:20   That's the thing about a lot of these

01:02:22   graphics subsystem things in the Windows Server

01:02:24   that deal with GPU drivers.

01:02:25   it could be perfectly fine for you

01:02:27   because your GPU driver has no problems.

01:02:30   And for someone else, it doesn't matter how lightly

01:02:32   or heavily you use it if you're disconnecting

01:02:33   or turning them on, it's just that your GPU,

01:02:35   the driver for it has some bug that gets tripped

01:02:37   on average after every 30 minutes.

01:02:38   So I've heard that as well.

01:02:41   I don't know if that's making me wear it

01:02:44   'cause I assume I don't have one of those weird GPUs,

01:02:46   but who knows?

01:02:47   - You know, that kind of thing,

01:02:49   I'm just not willing to take the risk on my main computer

01:02:52   when there are still widespread reports

01:02:54   of problems of that magnitude.

01:02:56   The advantages of High Sierra are just not very compelling

01:02:59   for me to take that risk right now.

01:03:02   Over time, that calculus will change.

01:03:04   Over time, it will start to become more annoying

01:03:07   that I don't have the latest version,

01:03:08   'cause lots of things around the Apple ecosystem

01:03:10   these days will assume that you have the latest version,

01:03:12   it will only work correctly or fully with the latest version,

01:03:15   especially with features that are shared between iOS

01:03:17   and the Mac, things like continuity and handoff,

01:03:20   even simple things like Notes.

01:03:22   Notes has new features now.

01:03:23   the HGVC and Heif stuff,

01:03:25   like that's gonna become more annoying over time

01:03:27   as my photos app can't edit the photos that are in it.

01:03:31   Things like that, like that's gonna eventually push me over

01:03:33   probably within the next few weeks.

01:03:35   Like I'm probably just gonna install the point one

01:03:37   and hope that it fixes everything, if not the point two.

01:03:41   But basically right now, why should I install it?

01:03:43   Like there's not much reason to install it.

01:03:46   And there's just a lot of potential for

01:03:49   there still be pretty serious problems with it

01:03:51   that I just don't need to be the one to fix.

01:03:53   You know, like when I was at Tumblr,

01:03:56   one of my rules was that, you know,

01:03:58   when I was choosing software or infrastructure

01:04:03   that we were going to build upon,

01:04:05   one of my rules was to never be the biggest user of anything.

01:04:08   You know, you wanna use stuff that like Facebook uses,

01:04:11   or Twitter uses, because you know, like,

01:04:13   if there's any kind of bug at scale,

01:04:16   they will have already hit it,

01:04:18   and probably will have submitted and fixed,

01:04:20   you know, fixes for it.

01:04:21   It'll be fixed by them long before

01:04:23   it's ever a problem for you.

01:04:25   And similarly with like macro S betas,

01:04:27   like why install the point zero?

01:04:29   Like why not let the entire rest of the world use it first,

01:04:32   report all the bugs, get Apple to fix them,

01:04:35   and then install the point one or the point two?

01:04:37   Like it's selfish, like you should as like a social good,

01:04:42   try to contribute with everybody.

01:04:43   But no, screw that, I need my computer to work,

01:04:45   and so I'll let everyone else do that,

01:04:46   and I'll sit back and collect the fixes.

01:04:49   Speaking of computer reliability, my shiny new Space Gray 2017 MacBook Pro has already

01:04:57   proven to not be as reliable as my outgoing 8 year old 2009 Mac Pro at work.

01:05:04   Because I've had it for what, like 2 weeks now or something?

01:05:07   And I came in one day this week and it was just off.

01:05:10   And I booted up and sure enough it had kernel panicked in the middle of the night at like

01:05:14   3am.

01:05:15   It was just sitting there, nobody's using it, who knows what was going on, I didn't

01:05:19   get anything good. I did do the send report to Apple. I looked at the thing. I couldn't

01:05:23   make heads or tails of it. Nothing obvious jumped. It didn't even look like a full crash

01:05:28   report. Whatever it had saved in NVRAM, it was just information about my system but didn't

01:05:32   tell me about what had crashed or show me any symbols or anything like that. If it wants

01:05:37   to match my 2009 Mac Pro's performance, it needs to not kernel panic again for another

01:05:44   seven years because my 2009 micro did kernel panic a couple of times when they first installed

01:05:52   the terrible antivirus software that they were forcing us all to use because it apparently

01:05:56   had an incompatibility with like xeons or something. That was the story like oh you're

01:06:01   the only computer in the entire company with a xeon in it and the antivirus software kernel

01:06:05   panics reliably kernel panic xeons and we changed to a different antivirus thing and

01:06:11   so that solved that problem.

01:06:12   So those were the only panics I had and those were explicable and I could tell what was

01:06:15   doing it.

01:06:16   Let me see, did we have any other kernel panics on that one?

01:06:20   Maybe.

01:06:21   When I gave away, what gave away, when I returned my 2009 Mac Pro at work, I also like returned

01:06:27   you know all the stuff that came with it and you know what came with it?

01:06:31   Snow levered on a plastic disk.

01:06:32   Nice.

01:06:33   That's what came with this computer.

01:06:34   Vintage.

01:06:35   So maybe I had some kernel panics back on it but like but in general it's just I don't

01:06:39   It's not a thing that I expect to happen.

01:06:41   Like, it just, and so, within the first few weeks

01:06:43   of it, and remember, this is running Sierra,

01:06:45   not High Sierra, but like, 10.12.6,

01:06:47   the latest version of Sierra.

01:06:49   Not off to an auspicious start, but oh well.

01:06:52   At least the boot's fast.

01:06:54   - I mean, the thing to remember too is like,

01:06:56   you know, these Mac OS releases on a schedule,

01:07:00   not when it's done.

01:07:01   Apple is, you know, Apple usually ships high quality stuff.

01:07:04   You know, like, we complain, but like,

01:07:06   their track record's pretty good.

01:07:08   but there's also a hierarchy.

01:07:09   You could be pretty sure that when a new iPhone comes out,

01:07:12   that's usually pretty solid,

01:07:14   'cause they care a lot about that

01:07:15   and they work really hard on that to make that rock solid.

01:07:19   But everything else beneath the iPhone

01:07:23   gets less and less reliable in that way.

01:07:27   You can't be sure that a lower priority release

01:07:30   is going to be as solid as iPhone hardware,

01:07:34   'cause everything else has to basically ship on a schedule

01:07:37   whenever it's ready.

01:07:39   And again, usually that works out okay.

01:07:43   But they were gonna ship High Sierra when they did,

01:07:46   regardless of whether it was done.

01:07:49   So we got it and it's probably close to done.

01:07:53   There probably aren't a lot of bugs,

01:07:55   but that was shipped on a schedule,

01:07:58   not after hitting a certain quality threshold.

01:08:01   - It's right that they do it on a schedule,

01:08:03   but they control scope.

01:08:05   Even on iOS they do it, they control scope.

01:08:06   So they have, it's either you can change the schedule

01:08:10   by saying we're gonna push this out

01:08:11   or you can narrow the scope

01:08:12   so you can ship what is shippable.

01:08:14   And they did it in iOS too.

01:08:15   They didn't ship that one feature I wanted the most,

01:08:17   which is the iMessage syncing.

01:08:18   That fell out of the release, right?

01:08:21   Because you're right, they are shipping on a schedule.

01:08:23   Look, we gotta ship this

01:08:24   'cause we gotta sell some phones here

01:08:25   and we gotta ship iOS 11

01:08:27   and whatever it was like a month before,

01:08:29   that fell out because it's like,

01:08:31   this is not gonna be ready.

01:08:32   In High Sierra, APFS on Fusion drives

01:08:36   and automatically converting spinning disks all fell out of it and the fusion drives coming

01:08:39   back, right?

01:08:40   So that's what they're trying to do is say, "We do want to ship on a schedule, but we

01:08:44   want to ship quality software, so we have to make a call at a certain point.

01:08:48   You're not going to be ready in time for the schedule.

01:08:50   So guess what feature?

01:08:51   You get booted out of the OS."

01:08:52   And that's easy to do in theory, but in practice, pulling features out is not a harm-free process.

01:09:01   You are left with a code base that is different than it was before that may have new interactions

01:09:05   that you didn't anticipate, and so now you have to test that new combination of stuff.

01:09:10   And so it is difficult, and I see what Apple's trying to do, and in general, that's how modern

01:09:14   software development works.

01:09:16   Usually you want to have a reasonably fixed schedule, especially for something that's

01:09:21   like a marketing type thing, where every year you want to have a new version of iOS or whatever,

01:09:25   and you just control scope.

01:09:27   And it's easier said than done, and that's what Apple's trying to do.

01:09:30   But as you said, Marco, even though they're doing the same strategy in both OSes, they're

01:09:35   The big show is iOS and then everything else in the company gets slightly less of everything slightly less

01:09:41   time money people

01:09:44   Everything about it is less. How much is it less is it like partially less?

01:09:48   You don't you know this is it has fewer users, right? It is also a more mature product

01:09:53   But it is also a product that makes less money and like so

01:09:57   I don't know we Mac users have been feeling neglected for a while because iOS is it gets all the glory and stuff like that

01:10:02   but uh in

01:10:04   In theory, there's a lot of articles.

01:10:05   There was a good one, Stephen Hackett had two articles

01:10:07   about this, about High Sierra being like Snow Leopard, right?

01:10:11   But Snow Leopard was back in the days

01:10:13   when Mac OS X was still pretty firmly in,

01:10:18   maybe not, in the glory position, right?

01:10:23   And it was an important product.

01:10:25   It was a very important product to Apple.

01:10:26   So when they did the no new features release,

01:10:28   A, that was a lie, and B,

01:10:31   they kind of meant it a little bit more.

01:10:33   I mean, Grand Settle Desprache was released in Snow Leopard,

01:10:36   if I recall correctly.

01:10:37   That's a pretty big feature to say no new features.

01:10:40   But these days it does feel like,

01:10:46   like if this is supposed to be a Snow Leopard,

01:10:48   it doesn't feel very Snow Leopard.

01:10:49   It doesn't feel like they took Sierra and just polished it.

01:10:51   Because you said Marco, Sierra still has some rough edges

01:10:54   that just seem to have never been resolved.

01:10:55   And now you're adding more stuff

01:10:57   and it's not just like taking Sierra

01:10:59   and making it more reliable and faster.

01:11:02   I don't know.

01:11:02   Like I said, I haven't installed that.

01:11:06   My spidey sense is tingling.

01:11:08   - Wow, great.

01:11:11   I mean, I have, like I said,

01:11:14   put this on the adorable in my work computer,

01:11:17   and so far the only thing that I've really noticed

01:11:20   is that I can now use my unlock

01:11:23   with my cellular Apple Watch again,

01:11:24   like I discussed earlier.

01:11:25   Like otherwise, it doesn't really seem any different to me.

01:11:29   And in fact, it seems so similar to me

01:11:31   that I intend to go through Steven's review,

01:11:36   not only because I want to read it in general,

01:11:38   but to tell me what it is that's different.

01:11:40   Because it seems like a lot of the big differences

01:11:42   are Safari, which I had previously put on my Sierra builds,

01:11:46   and photos, which I don't use.

01:11:48   So once you take those away, it's kinda like,

01:11:51   eh, I'm sure there's other good stuff there,

01:11:54   but eh, whatever.

01:11:55   - Well, and I hope that, like I mentioned

01:11:58   how Sierra still has these Bluetooth issues

01:12:00   that don't seem to be fixed.

01:12:02   With High Sierra, have they fixed them,

01:12:04   or did they just move on

01:12:05   and now they're breaking other things?

01:12:06   I don't know, I hope they fixed them,

01:12:09   but you never know with these kind of releases.

01:12:11   That's one of the reasons why I haven't installed it yet.

01:12:12   But what you said, Casey,

01:12:14   that you could barely even really tell

01:12:16   that you had upgraded,

01:12:17   that's, for a release like this

01:12:20   where there really weren't user-facing changes,

01:12:23   that's what you want.

01:12:24   That is the ideal case.

01:12:26   Now we'll see.

01:12:27   Your track record of reporting problems to us

01:12:29   with your computer is pretty poor.

01:12:31   Like, you might tell us in six months,

01:12:32   oh yeah, by the way, it's been rebooting every day at noon,

01:12:34   and I don't know why.

01:12:35   - Wait, that's a problem?

01:12:37   - Yeah, it's just been fun, I haven't wanted to take it in.

01:12:39   (laughing)

01:12:41   But you know, I hope when I install it, I don't notice.

01:12:45   And that maybe my trackpad and mouse stay connected.

01:12:48   Like, that's what I want to have in there.

01:12:51   I don't want any excitement there, because,

01:12:53   and there's a lot about Mac OS that I hope Apple

01:12:58   working on and I hope they do improve long term.

01:13:00   Like Steven's review had this great paragraph

01:13:02   towards the end that basically was listing

01:13:05   like a whole bunch of areas in Mac OS

01:13:08   that are still big problems and could really

01:13:10   use improvements, big and small.

01:13:12   If you think Mac OS is done and that it's perfected

01:13:16   and that there's nothing more to do,

01:13:18   you aren't thinking about the problem enough.

01:13:20   Mac OS still has tons of places it can go

01:13:26   and could use lots of improvements, big and small.

01:13:29   Right now, it looks like Apple's not really

01:13:31   doing much of that.

01:13:32   I hope that's just because we're in the middle stages

01:13:36   of those efforts and there's nothing to show yet.

01:13:38   Because there's still tons of things to make Macs awesome

01:13:42   and to make them better and to modernize them

01:13:44   that appear to not be happening.

01:13:46   So again, I hope they really are happening

01:13:49   and they're just not ready yet.

01:13:50   And I think what we've seen from Apple in the last few years

01:13:54   is that it does seem like there was a period

01:13:57   a few years ago where they really were not working

01:13:59   on the Mac much at all.

01:14:01   But it also seems like a few years ago

01:14:03   they kind of had a change of heart on that front

01:14:05   and that they began reinvesting a lot in the Mac again.

01:14:10   And that resulted in things like the touch bar

01:14:13   and things like that.

01:14:14   I hope that that progress continues.

01:14:18   Even though I haven't personally enjoyed the touch bar,

01:14:21   I honestly think it was a pretty big miss

01:14:23   and I think the lack of any touch bar changes in High Sierra

01:14:27   might indicate that Apple realizes that too, I don't know.

01:14:32   But the fact that they're investing in the Mac

01:14:35   is really, really good.

01:14:36   I hope they continue to invest not just in

01:14:39   cool hardware tricks like the touch bar,

01:14:42   but also in fundamentally moving the software forward.

01:14:46   With High Sierra, they laid some new groundwork

01:14:48   with the Windows Server.

01:14:49   I hope that was a big deal for moving everything forward.

01:14:52   I hope it succeeds and I hope they maintain it properly

01:14:55   to iron out the bugs and to fix all these subsystems

01:14:58   that might have been broken and move the platform forward.

01:15:01   We haven't seen that yet, but I hope that's in progress.

01:15:04   - Yeah, agreed.

01:15:06   - Thanks to our three sponsors this week,

01:15:08   Squarespace, Backblaze, and Jamf Now,

01:15:11   and we will see you next week.

01:15:13   (upbeat music)

01:15:15   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

01:15:17   ♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

01:15:20   'Cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental

01:15:26   John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

01:15:30   'Cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental

01:15:36   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

01:15:41   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them

01:15:46   C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S, so that's Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M,

01:15:54   N-T-M-A-R-C-O-R-M-N, S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A, it's accidental.

01:16:05   They didn't mean to, accidental.

01:16:10   Tech, podcast, so long.

01:16:15   So, you know how there was a time when Marco really enjoyed adding just kind of random

01:16:21   things to his Twitter bio?

01:16:24   And you know, he would be coffee enthusiast, and then he would be analyst, and then there

01:16:28   were a couple other ones after that.

01:16:30   I don't remember that time.

01:16:31   When do you look at Twitter bios?

01:16:33   Yellow Fence in the Room, that was my favorite one.

01:16:35   I remember that, but it wasn't adding things.

01:16:37   That was one thing, right?

01:16:41   Changing things in the bio.

01:16:43   The point is that I am now changing my Twitter bio to carjournalist.

01:16:48   Reason being, for the last week, I have had a loaner car from Fiat Chrysler of America.

01:16:56   Really?

01:16:57   That loaner car is not what I hoped it would be, and it is not the thing that I was promised,

01:17:05   and I will explain.

01:17:06   A friend of the show, Sam Abuel-Smid, who we discussed earlier of the Wheel Bearings

01:17:11   podcast, which you should listen to if, and I've mentioned this a few times in the past,

01:17:14   but if you ever wanted neutral but by someone who doesn't, who actually knows what they're

01:17:18   talking about, unlike us three idiots, you would like wheel bearings.

01:17:22   Anyway, Sam wrote me, I want to say it was in May or June, and said, "Hey, if you wanted

01:17:30   to take a spin with that car," and I'm not going to tell you which car it is, "I could

01:17:35   probably arrange that."

01:17:38   And in June, I think I told this tale of woe already once, in June I was told, it was I

01:17:42   think the week after WWDC, "We will give you this car as a loaner."

01:17:46   And then right before it was my turn, then the tire exploded apparently or some such,

01:17:52   and then they needed to get a new tire shipped in, because apparently this was not an off-the-shelf

01:17:57   tire.

01:17:58   A month or so later, they were going to give me the same car again, and then as it was

01:18:04   coming down 95 from Washington DC to me, apparently picked up a chip in the windshield or like

01:18:09   a shatter in the windshield and so they turned around and went back to DC.

01:18:12   So as an apology tour, Fiat Chrysler of America has loaned me a Jeep Grand Cherokee 4x4 Limited,

01:18:22   if I'm not mistaken.

01:18:23   I'm pretty sure that's what it was.

01:18:24   I do have the sticker in front of me, well not in front of me, but I do have the sticker,

01:18:28   yes, Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited 4x4.

01:18:32   It has about 5,000 miles on the clock, and it is,

01:18:37   it's a thing, it's a thing.

01:18:39   - Is that your review?

01:18:40   - That's my whole review.

01:18:41   - That's what happens when you get that big Volvo SUV.

01:18:44   They get this big Volvo and they're like,

01:18:46   "He likes giant shopping carts.

01:18:47   "Let's send him a big G-G."

01:18:49   - That's what it is, that's exactly it.

01:18:52   - Big tippy shopping cart.

01:18:53   - A big tippy shopping cart.

01:18:54   Well, so, (sighs)

01:18:57   so here's the problem.

01:18:59   If I hadn't had the Volvo in the family,

01:19:02   I think I would have been fairly impressed by this car.

01:19:05   But having the Volvo in the family,

01:19:08   this car is the American version of a luxury SUV,

01:19:13   which is to say, it's not that luxurious

01:19:19   and it's kind of a piece of garbage.

01:19:20   - It's got big cup holders though, doesn't it?

01:19:23   - It does have big cup holders.

01:19:26   So it does have a lot of really good things going for it.

01:19:28   It does have a fairly robust Bluetooth setup that has some really neat features.

01:19:35   It does--and that's Uconnect, the letter Uconnect.

01:19:38   And it's been around in Chrysler cars for a while now.

01:19:41   It does some neat things, like it'll read you your text messages.

01:19:43   You can even put on a do not disturb mode on the, like, infotainment, so it will no

01:19:48   longer offer to read you your text messages.

01:19:50   The Bluetooth connectivity for media worked reasonably well.

01:19:54   All that is decent.

01:19:55   It has a backup camera.

01:19:56   It does not have a 360 camera. It has an auto raising and lowering liftgate. It actually has a AC plug.

01:20:03   So a not a DC plug like a cigarette lighter.

01:20:06   I'm talking a full-on like the same kind of outlet you would find in your house plug

01:20:11   in the back of the center console so for the rear seats, which is super cool.

01:20:16   I knew that they had put these in cars before but though, you know, to get a

01:20:19   decent one of those as an aftermarket thing, it's like a couple hundred bucks and this is just in the car.

01:20:25   Overall, it was a nice car.

01:20:28   You know, it did a lot of things reasonably well.

01:20:31   This particular model was the V6.

01:20:33   The V6 is not fast.

01:20:34   It does do the stop start thing.

01:20:36   It actually, I think, was a little bit smoother

01:20:39   on the stop start than Aaron's Volvo, believe it or not.

01:20:42   So, so far, things are looking good.

01:20:44   But then everything takes a turn.

01:20:47   - Wait, as I'm building and pricing this thing

01:20:49   to match what you're saying,

01:20:50   the next step that I have to choose is the color.

01:20:53   And you know I only have one question.

01:20:55   It is not white, you jackass.

01:20:57   - Yes! (laughs)

01:20:58   - It is.

01:20:59   It is a dark, dark, dark gray.

01:21:00   What is the official color?

01:21:01   Where does it say it on the sticker?

01:21:02   - It looks like it comes in about 16 different grays.

01:21:05   - The exterior color is granite crystal,

01:21:07   metallic clear coat exterior paint.

01:21:09   - What, this thing is almost the same price

01:21:13   as your Volvo's.

01:21:14   I'm, you get--

01:21:14   - No, the base price was 40 according to the sticker.

01:21:18   - Are you a four by four?

01:21:19   - It is a four by four.

01:21:19   - Limited trim, right?

01:21:21   - Correct.

01:21:22   Grand Cherokee limited four by four.

01:21:23   This is a 2017 model.

01:21:25   - Oh yeah, sorry, I'm at $39,900.

01:21:26   - Yeah, that's the base price.

01:21:28   Optional equipment includes the customer preferred

01:21:32   package 23H, which is apparently luxury group two,

01:21:36   which is a $4,300 option that includes a 506 watt amplifier,

01:21:40   an 8.4 inch touchscreen display.

01:21:42   Leather trim seats with perforated inserts.

01:21:46   Ooh, we need to talk about heated and cooled seats actually,

01:21:50   because that's a thing.

01:21:51   Lane sense lane departure warning plus

01:21:54   Parallel and perpendicular park assist.

01:21:57   Have you tried auto parking in the Tesla?

01:21:59   - I have.

01:22:00   - Does it work?

01:22:01   - It works mostly, but it's so slow,

01:22:04   I usually just do it myself.

01:22:05   - Yeah, yeah.

01:22:06   It's, I tried it once with perpendicular parking

01:22:09   and it was garbage.

01:22:10   And actually to be fair, so was Aaron's Volvo.

01:22:12   (jazz music)

01:22:15   Finally, finally, a $595 blind spot and cross path detection

01:22:20   and a destination charge of $1,000.

01:22:22   total sticker price ladies and gentlemen $48,230 which is quite a bit less than we paid for

01:22:27   Aaron's Volvo. So it feels like the American take on a luxury SUV. A lot of the stuff is

01:22:33   nice and it does have a lot of the bits and bobs like the you know radar cruise control.

01:22:38   But so much of it gets wrong like this Uconnect thing and this is gonna this isn't that interesting

01:22:43   without a visual aid and so you just have to go on faith until I eventually write my

01:22:47   my blog post, but the Uconnect thing is an assault on my eyeballs. It is a billion buttons,

01:22:55   everything is gray, everything blends together. There are neat features about it. So as an

01:23:01   example when you're in the Bluetooth media screen, there's a little teeny tiny button

01:23:06   that says "map" and then it will do a popover of the current map. So you can look at where

01:23:10   you are without leaving the context of the Bluetooth screen. That's a kind of cool idea.

01:23:15   But it isn't pinch to zoom, or whatever the case may be, which Aaron's car is.

01:23:21   The resolution of the screen was not very good.

01:23:25   Aaron's car, I wouldn't call it retina, but it's of that kind of caliber, right?

01:23:31   It's a decently high-res screen.

01:23:33   This thing looked like it was five years old, and this is a 2017 model.

01:23:39   And here again, as I was starting to say at the beginning, it's so frustrating, because

01:23:45   without Erin's car as a comparison, as a benchmark, I actually think I would have liked this car

01:23:50   a lot more.

01:23:51   And when I met Erin, way back when, she had said her fantasy car in a lot of ways was

01:23:56   a Grand Cherokee.

01:23:57   She just always really liked them.

01:23:58   And you know what?

01:23:59   I always really liked them.

01:24:00   I always thought they were really nice trucks, I should say.

01:24:04   But as compared to the Volvo, which does all of the things this does and more and does

01:24:09   every single one of them better except of course going off-road, I would choose the

01:24:14   Volvo any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

01:24:17   Knob feel, it was maybe a seven or eight.

01:24:20   It's a nice, it feels nice but it's not—

01:24:23   I love this as a category for us.

01:24:24   It is, it really is.

01:24:26   But it's not, you can tell it's just, it's just not all there.

01:24:31   And the things that really drove me nuts about it were things where they just didn't think

01:24:37   it through.

01:24:39   So as an example, most of you listeners probably live in an area where at a stoplight, and

01:24:46   for Americans it's a left, for those crazies that drive on the wrong side of the road it

01:24:50   would be making a right.

01:24:51   But for Americans, if you're trying to make a left, let's say that there are two lanes

01:24:55   to make a left-hand turn.

01:24:56   So you're on presumably like a multi-lane road, and you're at a stoplight, you're going

01:25:00   make a left-hand turn, which is the difficult turn for an American to make.

01:25:04   So you stop the car, and the stop-start probably kicks in, so the car feels like it's stalled,

01:25:10   but it's actually fine.

01:25:12   You go to take off once the light turns green.

01:25:14   The car starts right up.

01:25:15   That actually works really well, and like I said, it's actually a little smoother than

01:25:18   Aaron's car, surprisingly, especially since it's two more cylinders.

01:25:22   And immediately, "Whee!

01:25:24   Whee!

01:25:25   Whee!"

01:25:26   happening is it thinks, perhaps because I'm an idiot and I'm the only American that ever

01:25:31   uses my turn signal, it thinks that you're signaling to make a lane change. And it's

01:25:37   trying to tell you there's somebody next to you, which on the highway at like 70 miles

01:25:42   an hour or what have you, that is a useful thing. But when you're on a surface street

01:25:48   accelerating from zero miles an hour to 15 or 20 or 30 or 40, the moment you leave zero

01:25:54   miles an hour and all of a sudden you hear "wwee, wwee, wwee, wwee." Oh my word, is it

01:26:00   frustrating. And a lot of the roads in the area in which I live are multi-lane roads

01:26:03   in each direction, so there are a lot of times when I'll be making a left adjacent to another

01:26:09   car, and all the time "wwee, wwee, wwee," it is unbelievably frustrating. So here's

01:26:14   an example of where it's a great idea in principle, but it's just poorly executed. The Uconnect

01:26:22   with like all the Bluetooth bits and bobs and all of that. Great idea in principle, not a good execution.

01:26:28   And furthermore, where's my damn car play? It's just infuriating. And so so much of this car,

01:26:34   and I know I say this about so many things, but it was death by a thousand paper cuts.

01:26:38   In a lot of ways I really liked it, but god it was terrible. Any thoughts about the car and then I'd

01:26:44   like to do a little inside baseball about what the delivery process was like?

01:26:48   Can you disable stop-start?

01:26:50   Yes, and it's actually a physical button right there on the dashboard.

01:26:54   I've never had a car with that, but I would so desperately, I think I would not buy one

01:26:58   if I couldn't turn it off and have it remember the setting.

01:27:00   You know, it's really not that bad in the grand scheme of things.

01:27:03   I know, I know, you won't even notice, blah blah blah blah blah blah, save energy, blah

01:27:07   blah blah, nope.

01:27:08   Oh no no no, you would notice, I noticed, you would absolutely notice, but you do get

01:27:14   used to it, and especially if you drive a car with three pedals.

01:27:18   I mean, I understand the theory and like I think I would I might leave it on on something big like a minivan or an SUV

01:27:24   Or some other thing that I that I didn't consider a real car like you know

01:27:28   I mean, but I just don't want that I mean the the true chops stop start is what Marco has when he's at a stoplight

01:27:35   Nothing is moving. Nothing is moving

01:27:38   It is stopped, but then when he goes again, he doesn't have to wait for the engine to start

01:27:44   I know there's not waiting. I know they start really fast. The starter motors are fine

01:27:47   They're built to be to be started. You'll you know, maybe you'll notice but you'll they'll never be any lag

01:27:52   It's I don't I don't want that. I don't want it at all. It still sucks

01:27:55   No, I mean like to me like all like start-stop

01:27:59   CVT's all these new autos that have like a million different gears in them to me. It's kind of like when

01:28:06   LCD came out for TVs and LCDs were

01:28:10   Okay, but they and they were fairly simple

01:28:13   But then towards the middle and end of the LCD era in TVs,

01:28:18   they started adding all these crazy hacks

01:28:22   to try to boost their specs.

01:28:23   So that's when you started getting

01:28:24   like the weird dynamic backlighting

01:28:26   and all sorts of weird hacks that really were just

01:28:30   like piles upon piles of hacks

01:28:32   that made certain things worse,

01:28:34   all in an effort to try to boost specs

01:28:36   towards the end of their life

01:28:38   before we switched to a superior technology of OLED.

01:28:41   And that to me is what gas engine cars are going through

01:28:46   for like the last 10 years or so.

01:28:48   They're trying so hard to eke out every single last mile

01:28:52   per gallon to meet new spec requirements

01:28:54   and to be more competitive and everything.

01:28:57   But they're just adding all these crazy hacks

01:29:00   that add up to being a lot less fun to drive

01:29:02   or a lot less nice of a drive in certain ways

01:29:04   and to certain people who care about such things.

01:29:07   And really these are just all temporary hacks

01:29:10   on the way to the next thing, which is electric,

01:29:13   but in cars, things move more slowly.

01:29:16   And so we're gonna be in this transition for a while,

01:29:19   but ultimately we're gonna look back

01:29:21   at all these crazy gas engine hacks

01:29:23   as just these awful relics of a transitional time.

01:29:26   - And also the sensor stuff.

01:29:29   This is kind of the, I think we're in the

01:29:30   mouse motor seatbelt era.

01:29:32   I don't know if mouse, I'm not getting it right,

01:29:34   but do you remember the seatbelts?

01:29:36   There was a requirement, I think it was like

01:29:39   a government requirement in the US,

01:29:42   that you either had to have airbags

01:29:44   or automatic motorized seat belts.

01:29:47   Do you remember the seat belts that go along

01:29:48   a little track along like the A-pillar?

01:29:50   - Is that what those were for?

01:29:51   - Yeah, 'cause it was like before,

01:29:53   car makers weren't ready to put airbags in yet.

01:29:56   So like, well, we've got this bottle of car

01:29:58   and we haven't figured out the whole airbag thing yet

01:30:00   or we don't have a supplier or we haven't certified it

01:30:02   or the car's almost done or whatever.

01:30:04   So they would put in the motorized seat belt.

01:30:05   So when you open the door, this little motorized thing

01:30:07   would go down your a-pillar with the shoulder harness attached to it and then you'd get

01:30:12   in the car and close the door and it would go and motor back up to like over your shoulder.

01:30:16   That's what my Saturn had. And though first of all those are an abomination and I never

01:30:20   would have bought a car with them and they're terrible. But it was like oh from now on safety

01:30:25   features will just be more and more invasive. But no like we figured that out. Eventually

01:30:29   we got the airbag thing figured out the motorized seatbelts went away. So I feel like sensors

01:30:33   are in the little motorized seatbelt there where it's like sensors are good. We want

01:30:37   for safety, governments are going to require certain things or whatever, but a lot of them

01:30:41   are poorly implemented, like Casey's, you know, lane detection thing that is telling them he's

01:30:46   going to go into a lane where somebody is there and really he's just making a left along with a

01:30:49   bunch of other people, right? Sensors are good. We should have more of them, we should have more

01:30:53   cameras, you know, all the stuff that like makes it easy to park and, you know, the backup cameras

01:30:57   are mandated in 2017 models and later in the US, I think, like, those are all good, but a lot of

01:31:02   the early implementations are not good. And so we get angry like, oh, the safety equipment sucks,

01:31:07   I don't want to have all these electronic sensors blooping at me. I want the sensors. I don't want them blooping at me. So I'm hoping

01:31:13   that these the

01:31:15   incredibly annoying blooping sensors

01:31:18   We get this figured out and it settles down into the current state of like safety equipment like airbags where you don't notice them

01:31:24   They're small. The steering wheels aren't gigantic because of them anymore

01:31:27   And we just all you know, except the the safety benefits of them

01:31:31   But I don't know it's been a while with the sensors and almost every reviewer still reads like mentions

01:31:36   "Hey, can you turn that stuff off?"

01:31:39   In some ways I'm almost kind of glad that I didn't get that more expensive option on

01:31:42   my cord for the Honda Sensing Packet and stuff, because I have the backup camera, which is

01:31:46   the most important thing.

01:31:47   But all the other Sensing stuff for lane change and whatever, I guess it would be easier than

01:31:52   turning my head, but I would probably still turn my head anyway.

01:31:55   For whatever it's worth, both the BMW and the Tesla systems for these things have not

01:32:00   been annoying.

01:32:01   They have not annoyed me at times where they shouldn't.

01:32:04   They've been great.

01:32:05   Yeah, the Volvos is very good as well.

01:32:06   The only problem I have with the Volvo is there's been a couple of times when it's done

01:32:10   a panic stop on behalf of the driver when really it wasn't necessary, which is very

01:32:15   startling.

01:32:16   But that's only been a couple of times where, by comparison with the Jeep, you know, half

01:32:22   the time I was driving it, a couple other thoughts actually before we do a little inside

01:32:27   baseball.

01:32:28   Remote start on a car that you can only cool once the car is started.

01:32:33   That is awesome.

01:32:34   car can be remote started, curiously enough, from the Volvo app, but cannot be remote started

01:32:39   from the key fob, which is kind of backwards from what I would expect. But this thing had

01:32:43   a remote start right on the key fob, and that was super nice. Ventilated seats, they're

01:32:47   cool, I guess, and I don't mean that to be punny, but it didn't make that big of a difference.

01:32:51   I certainly liked it, and if it was like a one or two hundred dollar option on a Phantom

01:32:55   car I was about to buy, I would probably tick that checkbox, but if it was like a five hundred

01:32:59   or thousand dollar option, no way.

01:33:02   - Cooled seats, heated seats are a different beast.

01:33:04   Heated seats are easy.

01:33:05   - Oh, very much, yeah, yeah.

01:33:06   - Cooled seats, I've had a number of different ones.

01:33:09   My current card is not having them,

01:33:10   'cause at the time I bought it, Tesla didn't offer them.

01:33:12   I think it still doesn't.

01:33:14   The way cooled seats are implemented

01:33:16   makes a huge difference in how useful

01:33:18   or non-useful they are.

01:33:19   What is cooling them?

01:33:20   Are they just taking an offshoot of a vent

01:33:22   from the main system and cooling you that way?

01:33:24   Are they just blowing air with their own little fan?

01:33:27   Do they have their own compressor even?

01:33:29   There are different degrees of cooled seats

01:33:32   and it makes a big difference.

01:33:34   Also, one issue I had with the, the M5 had it,

01:33:37   but I almost never used it because the cut of the fabric

01:33:41   on the sport seats didn't have a lot of room

01:33:45   for the big areas with the holes that would ventilate.

01:33:49   So it would cool part of my thighs,

01:33:53   but not the whole area that needed to be cooled.

01:33:56   And there wasn't a lot of airflow.

01:33:58   the way you'd sit on it would just kinda like block it shut.

01:34:01   The best I have felt yet,

01:34:04   a while back Tif had a Lexus IS 250,

01:34:07   and that one had really nice air conditioned seats.

01:34:10   It was like sitting on a glorious air conditioned

01:34:13   air hockey table.

01:34:14   Like you would feel it, it cooled really strongly

01:34:18   to the point where eventually your legs would get cold

01:34:20   and you'd just turn it down.

01:34:21   And I never had to turn it down in the M5.

01:34:24   Like the M5 was always like, I was just dying for more.

01:34:27   But from what I understand, there are a lot of different

01:34:30   levels of how good these things can be.

01:34:34   So I'm not familiar with the one that was in your

01:34:38   big Jeep monstrosity, but maybe it was just not

01:34:41   one of the good ones.

01:34:42   - Yeah, very well could be.

01:34:44   And I think that's mostly it.

01:34:46   Obviously I will write some amount of review

01:34:48   for my website about this.

01:34:50   What was interesting about it was, apparently,

01:34:54   Fiat and all the other car manufacturers have

01:34:56   fleets of vehicles. And there's, you know, presumably one on the East Coast, one in the

01:34:59   Midwest, and one in the West Coast. And so when this was being arranged, you know, I

01:35:04   had come to find out that the car was in, I actually thought at the time, DC, it turns

01:35:10   out it was actually in Baltimore, which is about a three-hour drive from where I am.

01:35:14   And so when we were arranging it, I had assumed that that meant I would have to like meet

01:35:18   the driver halfway somehow and like pick the car up and then drive it the rest of the way.

01:35:23   But as it turns out, no, when you're press, oh, they come to you.

01:35:27   They drove the car all the way to me.

01:35:29   We spoke for about two minutes.

01:35:31   They handed me the keys, and then they drove back to Baltimore.

01:35:34   And that was that.

01:35:35   And tomorrow they're going to come to my house.

01:35:36   I will presumably speak with them for two minutes, and then they will go back to Baltimore,

01:35:40   which I just thought was the most bonkers thing.

01:35:43   But I guess that's normal.

01:35:46   There was no formal or implied agreement that I would write or talk about any of this, really.

01:35:52   Obviously I wanted to in part because I feel like I kind of owed it to them

01:35:56   But they never said like it has to be a good review. It has to be the so long or anything like that

01:36:00   I mean, they never really even said you have to talk about it

01:36:02   They just said hey if you want the car you can have the car and I said yes, please

01:36:05   it's a very odd thing and I'm and I'm very thankful to Sam for kind of arranging this for me and

01:36:10   We'll see if we get the car that I was originally slated to get because you know

01:36:15   Like I said, this is kind of the apology to our car

01:36:17   we'll see if I ever do get my hands on the thing I originally wanted to get and

01:36:22   and we'll find out.

01:36:24   - Is it from the same company?

01:36:25   - It is from P. Chrysler of America.

01:36:28   - Well, I mean, maybe.

01:36:30   So there have been a couple of times

01:36:34   when I've been given review samples of things,

01:36:38   and it's similar in the sense that they don't,

01:36:42   I've never been asked to provide a positive review

01:36:44   in exchange for receiving a thing.

01:36:45   I mean, I'm sure there are less ethical companies

01:36:49   that will ask press that,

01:36:51   but I don't think they would last very long doing that

01:36:53   because that's a massive ethical problem

01:36:56   and I think the press would not react kindly

01:36:58   to being asked to do that.

01:37:00   So no one's ever asked me for a review

01:37:02   or for a positive review or anything,

01:37:03   but the implication is always that they expect a review.

01:37:08   I don't like sign a contract saying I'm going to review it,

01:37:12   but usually the implication is they're sending me

01:37:15   these things for me to review them.

01:37:17   usually when I give a particularly negative review,

01:37:21   I don't usually hear from that company again.

01:37:24   So, given your summary of this car,

01:37:27   I don't know how this company works

01:37:31   and how they deal with their press outreach

01:37:34   and review units, but I maybe wouldn't expect you

01:37:38   to get whatever car that you actually wanted.

01:37:41   (laughing)

01:37:42   The relationship might end at this point.

01:37:44   I'm just saying.

01:37:45   - It may, it may.

01:37:46   that way, but it does work that way.

01:37:48   - Oh sure.

01:37:49   - For a lot of companies, a lot of the time.

01:37:50   So, and this is, honestly, this is part of the problem

01:37:54   with that style of review.

01:37:55   This is one of the, you know, when you combine it also

01:37:57   with like, you know, the nature of advertising

01:38:00   driven publications, this is also one of the reasons

01:38:03   why there's often a conflict of interest.

01:38:06   And one of the reasons why like, you know,

01:38:08   I think Consumer Reports famously just goes

01:38:11   and buys their cars to review, like they don't take

01:38:13   review samples because that can be seen as

01:38:17   affecting the outcome.

01:38:18   And even if you try so hard as the reviewer

01:38:23   to be neutral and to be objective about everything,

01:38:28   it still does make you feel better about a company

01:38:32   if you got something for free.

01:38:33   It does affect the way you frame it in your mind,

01:38:37   even subconsciously.

01:38:38   It's very, very hard to try to turn that off

01:38:41   and try to be totally objective.

01:38:44   There's a big justification, I think,

01:38:46   to publications and reviewers who don't accept freebies

01:38:51   and who just buy the things they review.

01:38:54   - So the corollary to this is that Consumer Reports

01:38:56   has terrible car reviews and the Good Car Magazine,

01:39:00   it's a good car magazine, it's like Car and Driver,

01:39:03   have spent decades crapping on entire brands

01:39:07   and lines of cars and companies.

01:39:09   just decade after decade of GM makes crap,

01:39:11   everything they make is terrible,

01:39:13   and they still keep sending them their cars, right?

01:39:15   So like, it's obviously you're not car and driver,

01:39:18   so Marker's probably right in your case, right?

01:39:20   They don't need you, but if you're big enough

01:39:22   and important enough, they'll just keep sending you cars,

01:39:25   even if every single time you send them,

01:39:28   like you crap on their cars, right?

01:39:30   And they'll say things pretty much just as harsh

01:39:33   as what Casey said, only in slightly different language,

01:39:35   like, "Coming last in all the comparison tests,

01:39:38   The summary reviews are terrible.

01:39:39   I mean, hell, I read you the one-liner summary

01:39:42   of the Acura TLX, it was automotive wallpaper.

01:39:45   Do you think Acura wants them to keep sending them

01:39:46   their cars, but they're going to keep sending them

01:39:49   because of their car and driver.

01:39:50   So it is possible to get enough clout to,

01:39:53   I mean, people complain like,

01:39:55   one of the best complaints about car and driver

01:39:56   is they're on BMW's payroll

01:39:58   because they loved BMWs for years, but guess what?

01:40:00   That changed recently, right about the time

01:40:02   they added electric steering

01:40:03   and started screwing up all their cars,

01:40:05   and it changed a little bit with the bangle era

01:40:06   with the styling.

01:40:08   So now all the conspiracy theorists don't know what to do,

01:40:12   because it's like, I thought we were paid off at BMW.

01:40:14   BMW keep losing comparison tests

01:40:16   and all their reviews are negative.

01:40:17   So some form of decent journalistic independence

01:40:21   is possible, even if you get free cars

01:40:24   and go in all the press stores and everything like that.

01:40:26   But Casey is not a car and driver,

01:40:28   so I don't know how that's gonna shake out.

01:40:29   - Yeah, you're right.

01:40:30   Once you're big enough that they have to send

01:40:33   your review sample just to be relevant in the press,

01:40:36   like if you're big enough for that,

01:40:37   then yeah, then a lot of this stops applying to you

01:40:39   because yeah, they're gonna send it to you anyway.

01:40:41   But when you're a smaller reviewer

01:40:44   or when you're just trying to get started,

01:40:45   it's really, really hard to risk

01:40:49   getting on a company's bad side

01:40:50   because that might cut off your supply of review units.

01:40:53   - Oh, and the weird thing is the nicer the car,

01:40:57   like sort of objectively, the harder it is

01:41:00   to get those cars to, the company's sending you the car.

01:41:03   So a lot of car magazines have a lot of difficulty

01:41:05   getting the supercars or the top-end luxury brands because they don't want anyone possibly

01:41:12   saying anything negative about their, you know, half a million dollar car. And they

01:41:16   don't need you because no one reading that magazine is going to buy that car anyway.

01:41:20   So they have to do like what Top Gear used to do is like find an owner who's nice enough

01:41:24   to let them drive their car because they can't get any from the manufacturer. The manufacturer

01:41:28   won't even return their calls. It's like, no thanks. Why would we let you say anything

01:41:32   bad about our car. We're just going to say that our car is wonderful and sell it for

01:41:35   millions of dollars and they're all already sold, right? We don't need your car magazine

01:41:39   and nobody subscribing to your stupid magazine has enough money to buy our car anyway, so

01:41:43   forget it. So it's not all of them obviously, but that's more likely the case when you're

01:41:47   not going to get a car. It's because of some kind of way that says, why would we even risk

01:41:51   you saying anything remotely negative about our car? Why would we risk you like comparing

01:41:55   it directly to one of our competitors' car? We don't want that to happen. It's all downside

01:41:58   for us.

01:41:59   Yeah, yeah. I haven't talked to Sam about what the best approach is, because I'm going to write about it in some way, shape, or form. I'm almost sure of it.

01:42:08   But I don't know if maybe I hold that until I get a date for the Phantom car.

01:42:14   And the thing that I was promised originally is something that is much more my speed, and so I'm much more inclined to enjoy it.

01:42:21   enjoy it. In fact, I had feared when I before I realized I wasn't getting it anytime soon,

01:42:28   I had feared that I would like it enough that that I would end up choosing that car to replace

01:42:33   the 335 whenever that time comes. So it is much more in my wheelhouse, this this phantom

01:42:39   car that I'm hoping to get. You keep saying Fiat Chrysler. I'm like, is he getting a the

01:42:45   the restyled Miata, the Fiat 124 Spider thing.

01:42:49   It's not just restyled, it has different engine too,

01:42:51   or maybe it doesn't, but anyway.

01:42:52   - That is not it, but it is a good guess.

01:42:54   - But now that you say you're thinking of replacing your car,

01:42:55   it's gotta be one of those stupid, what do they make?

01:42:58   What's their big, ugly--

01:42:59   - They don't own Cadillac, do they?

01:43:01   - They do not.

01:43:02   - No, that's jam.

01:43:03   - I was worried you were trying to get one of those weird,

01:43:04   like angled Cadillac M3 things.

01:43:07   - Oh, I almost bought the CTS-V.

01:43:09   - I'm trying to think of one he can replace his BMW.

01:43:11   What the hell does Chrysler make?

01:43:14   I'm guessing if Casey's looking to replace his BMW,

01:43:16   it's gonna be some kind of small hatchback that's fast

01:43:21   and that has a way worse interior than his BMW.

01:43:24   - That's made by Chrysler?

01:43:26   - I don't know.

01:43:27   I don't know anything about cars.

01:43:27   - Dodge, is it a Viper?

01:43:29   I don't know.

01:43:30   - I don't know.

01:43:31   Anyway, so let me suggest something.

01:43:33   Even though this is not to the best journalistic integrity,

01:43:39   you gave your review of this car.

01:43:41   You just did it here on this show.

01:43:43   - Podcasts are wonderful because nobody who doesn't

01:43:47   listen to the show is gonna get linked to this

01:43:50   in the company's PR division and be like,

01:43:52   "Look at this guy, we're not gonna."

01:43:54   You're gonna be relatively safe from any kind of

01:43:58   negative repercussions that might arise with this company

01:44:01   that you're still trying to work with

01:44:02   if you just leave this here.

01:44:04   Don't make the blog post.

01:44:06   - No, I think you gotta make the blog post.

01:44:07   You gotta do it. - Why?

01:44:08   - 'Cause the only thing he has going for him

01:44:10   is his integrity.

01:44:11   That's all he's got.

01:44:12   But you gave your honest review here,

01:44:14   and you could just say, look, if they ask,

01:44:16   which they won't, so don't even bother,

01:44:18   but if they would ask, hey, you never made a blog post,

01:44:21   just say, look, it really didn't work out for me,

01:44:24   this car is not for me, I didn't feel right

01:44:26   making this giant, trashing blog post about it,

01:44:28   something like that.

01:44:29   You gave your review here, that's it.

01:44:31   You've done your duty as a car journalist,

01:44:34   which I guess you are now, and congratulations, by the way.

01:44:37   That's great, but you've done your duty.

01:44:39   You don't have to make a blog post

01:44:40   that would be very easy for people in the company

01:44:43   to see, find, notice, and then tell someone else

01:44:46   who's dealing with you, "Hey, you know what?

01:44:47   "We don't need to deal with this guy anymore."

01:44:48   - They would say, "Thank you for your honest,

01:44:50   "constructive feedback.

01:44:51   "We will take it under advisement."

01:44:52   - They would not! (laughs)

01:44:55   You don't know how PR works, John.

01:44:56   - If he does it in the PR, people wouldn't,

01:44:58   but if he does it in a nice way, I think it'll be fine.

01:45:00   You're not talking about the Chrysler 300, are you?

01:45:02   There's no cars that you should be looking at

01:45:03   from Chrysler, Casey, is what I'm telling you.

01:45:06   - Pretty sure John's off the list now, too.

01:45:08   - Yeah, right?

01:45:09   - I would refuse a review car from Chrysler.

01:45:12   I would refuse.

01:45:13   - You would refuse a review car from Ferrari.

01:45:15   - No, I would not refuse that.

01:45:16   - You totally would.

01:45:17   - You'd be like, this isn't the one I would want.

01:45:19   - Ferrari, call me.

01:45:19   Eddy Cue, get on the phone.

01:45:21   (laughing)

01:45:22   - Oh my Lord. - Would not refuse that.

01:45:24   - What the hell?

01:45:25   Am I not missing, what?

01:45:27   Dodge, Chrysler?

01:45:29   - You are absolutely missing it.

01:45:31   - But is it the Alfa Romeo?

01:45:32   They're not Fiat Chrysler, are they?

01:45:34   - Maybe they are.

01:45:35   - The new Alphas I actually do think

01:45:36   are pretty cool looking.

01:45:37   I don't think I would buy one,

01:45:39   but they do look pretty cool.

01:45:41   - They look horrendous, but they're getting great reviews.

01:45:43   (laughing)

01:45:45   They came out the tops in the recent comparison

01:45:49   with the 3 Series, like in most types of cars,

01:45:50   the Giulia was number one.

01:45:52   It is a great car, I just cannot stand how it looks.

01:45:55   And there's also the questions of,

01:45:56   yeah, but will it fall apart?

01:45:58   - Fair enough, yep.

01:46:00   - So Twilling in the chat says that he ditched his M2

01:46:03   for a quadrifoglio?

01:46:06   - How do you?

01:46:07   (laughing)

01:46:08   - Bunch of Foglio.

01:46:10   - There you go, yeah.

01:46:11   That thing looks pretty cool, but it's,

01:46:12   my favorite thing about this is that,

01:46:14   on its product page, along with its specs,

01:46:16   it lists its Nurburgring lap time.

01:46:18   - That's the way to do it.

01:46:19   - Will you tell us if it's an Alpha, Alpha Romeo?

01:46:21   'Cause it's the only bird. - It is an Alpha.

01:46:23   - Of course it's an Alpha, come on.

01:46:25   - That's just a Julia,

01:46:27   it's just a particular model of a Julia.

01:46:28   There's not any more Alphas.

01:46:30   They named the 4C and the Julia, what else?

01:46:32   - It's not the, all I said was that it's not the 4C,

01:46:35   that's all I've told you.

01:46:35   And you said it's not the Giulia too, right?

01:46:37   I guessed the Giulia before. - When did I say that?

01:46:39   - Okay, so it's the Giulia, fine.

01:46:40   Fine, I hope you get it, 'cause this looks awesome.

01:46:42   - All right, well then it's the Giulia, yeah.

01:46:44   That's a really, that is--

01:46:45   - But now that you're an SUV person,

01:46:46   is it a Stelvio Quadrifoglio?

01:46:48   - No, it is not.

01:46:50   - Anyway, the Giulia is a really good car,

01:46:52   and I think you'll really like it

01:46:53   if you can stomach the looks,

01:46:54   and if it doesn't fall apart.

01:46:56   - I absolutely can stomach the looks.

01:46:58   The thing I might not be able to stomach is the transmission,

01:47:01   but--

01:47:02   - Ah, the stick is only Europe, that's right.

01:47:05   The reviews I've read say that even with the automatic,

01:47:07   that this is a really good car, and I think you will like it.

01:47:09   - I have read the same.

01:47:10   - But if you are concerned with expensive repairs

01:47:13   and reliability, perhaps Alfa Romeo is not the brand for you.

01:47:16   (laughs)

01:47:17   - That's the problem.

01:47:19   So, I don't know, we'll see if this 4C ever shows up,

01:47:22   or, sorry, not the 4C, if the Quadrifoglio ever shows up.

01:47:25   My guess is probably not.

01:47:26   But yeah, I mean, this is basically an M3 competitor,

01:47:30   and it looks to, I think it looks good.

01:47:33   I know you hate it.

01:47:34   I think it looks good.

01:47:35   And if you can leave the transmission out of it,

01:47:39   oh man, I think this would be a fun car to own.

01:47:42   So if and when I ever got to spin with it,

01:47:44   it would be great.

01:47:45   - Here's my problem with this.

01:47:46   Number one, price to performance ratio here,

01:47:50   it looks like in order to get a car

01:47:52   that's actually faster than your 335,

01:47:55   you'd have to go Quadrifoglio,

01:47:57   which is $72,000 starting price,

01:48:00   which is admittedly noticeably faster, which is nice.

01:48:03   that it would be a nice upgrade,

01:48:05   but you're then in a very high price bracket.

01:48:08   - Oh yes.

01:48:09   - Secondly, if you're gonna lose a stick

01:48:12   and not have a DCT and be willing to spend $72,000,

01:48:16   get a used P85D.

01:48:18   - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:48:19   - Well, at that point, if you're not gonna have a stick,

01:48:21   get a Tesla and then get a faster car.

01:48:25   - This makes better noises than a Tesla,

01:48:26   even though the Tesla might be faster.

01:48:28   Now this is lighter than the Tesla too.

01:48:30   - You're not gonna care the noises it makes

01:48:32   when you are squished against the back of your seat

01:48:34   from the P85D that you can get used for that price.

01:48:36   - It's not that much faster than this thing is.

01:48:39   - It's a lot faster.

01:48:41   - And this thing handles better.

01:48:42   - Well, I mean, if you're getting to 60 in 3.8 seconds,

01:48:45   you're already in a place where you are way faster

01:48:49   than what I'm used to.

01:48:50   And the sound, oh, that sound.

01:48:52   - Yeah, it does sound pretty good.

01:48:53   - And in this price bracket, it's 70 grand.

01:48:55   Like I said, this came out on top against other cars,

01:48:57   some of which cost more.

01:48:58   So it's not like there's a cheaper car that is better

01:49:01   that's out there today.

01:49:02   And I'm pretty sure if they had thrown a Model S

01:49:05   into that comparison, it would have come back way

01:49:06   in the pack because despite it being really fast,

01:49:09   it is like a 5,000 pound car and it would get destroyed

01:49:12   in all the handling tests.

01:49:14   - That's fair, but I still, like, if this car was available

01:49:17   in a stick or a DCT, I would say, awesome, go for it.

01:49:21   But because you care so much about that stick

01:49:24   and because this is not available in that stick,

01:49:27   I think you would be, I think you would miss it.

01:49:29   And if you're gonna miss it, go electric

01:49:31   where you have other great benefits

01:49:33   and better performance anyway.

01:49:34   Or get something different that has a stick

01:49:36   and you'll probably enjoy it more.

01:49:38   I bet, I assume your beloved Golf R comes in a stick, right?

01:49:42   - Oh, it absolutely does.

01:49:43   - I bet you would have more fun driving that

01:49:46   than driving this.

01:49:47   - That's probably true, but nevertheless,

01:49:52   I think there is something to be said for a car

01:49:55   that is kind of rare, kind of interesting, kind of unique.

01:49:58   and has basically a Ferrari engine within it.

01:50:02   I mean, that's pretty freaking cool.

01:50:04   I don't know, I like the idea

01:50:07   of the Giulia Quadrifoglio quite a lot,

01:50:10   but I think Marco is onto something that, in pure fun,

01:50:13   I would probably enjoy the Golf R more,

01:50:15   in part because it's all-wheel drive,

01:50:18   and as much as I fancy myself a really skilled driver,

01:50:21   the fact of the matter is I'm a ham-fisted driver,

01:50:23   and having all-wheel drive would keep me out of trouble.

01:50:26   - No, less trouble.

01:50:27   - Well, you know what I mean.

01:50:28   - But I'd wanna have three pedals, I really would.

01:50:31   But--

01:50:32   - You should get a Civic Type R if you wanna have some fun

01:50:34   and stay out of trouble.

01:50:35   - Maybe.

01:50:36   - Not fast enough to get into real trouble, super fun.

01:50:38   - You'll find yourself in an action movie with those,

01:50:41   you don't want that.

01:50:42   - That's right, he'll be racing around

01:50:43   with all his Fast and Furious friends.

01:50:45   - No, I mean the fact is, if you want fun, you want a stick.

01:50:50   That's, I know you, you know you, you know this is true.

01:50:54   This car would be really fast, and you'd have fun

01:50:57   for a couple of days and then you'd miss your stick.

01:51:00   And then after a couple of days,

01:51:01   the novelty will have worn off.

01:51:03   You won't care about who made the engine

01:51:05   or what it was originally spec'd for.

01:51:07   You will be really missing your stick.

01:51:10   - I think he's getting old.

01:51:11   Maybe he's become soft and maybe he will like

01:51:14   the lack of a stick and just get by on the luxurious interior

01:51:19   and the sound of the engine

01:51:20   and he just won't even miss shifting.

01:51:22   - I mean, it is possible.

01:51:23   It certainly is possible,

01:51:24   but I still come down on Marco's side so far.

01:51:27   But I mean, if and when I ever get a spin in this,

01:51:29   which to be honest, I'm assuming will never happen.

01:51:32   - You can go take a test drive at a dealer right now.

01:51:34   - Yeah, I suppose that's true,

01:51:36   but it's a lot different taking a--

01:51:38   - Don't forget to test drive the 2018 Accord.

01:51:40   People are loving the little stubby shifter.

01:51:42   It's the same one from the Type R.

01:51:43   - I'll get right on that.

01:51:45   - You should.

01:51:46   - Oh, and when you go to a dealer to test drive this,

01:51:47   don't tell them you're a car journalist,

01:51:49   because then they won't let you test drive it.

01:51:51   - That's true.

01:51:53   - Really?

01:51:53   - Oh, my word.

01:51:54   - We saw your Twitter bio, sir.

01:51:56   you know how to test drive this.

01:51:58   - I really should change my Twitter bio, shouldn't I?

01:52:01   Oh my goodness. - No.

01:52:03   - Anyway, that's my story.

01:52:05   But even if this is my lone foray into car journalism,

01:52:10   it's been a tremendous amount of fun.

01:52:13   And I felt very fancy and very cool

01:52:18   and part of a small club.

01:52:20   - And you wasted it on a Jeep.

01:52:22   - Well, you know.

01:52:23   (laughing)

01:52:25   You can't win them all, John Syracuse, you can't win them all.

01:52:28   Just wanted to let Mercedes, Porsche, Bentley, Ferrari know I'm available for test drives.

01:52:36   I will tell the world about your knob feel.

01:52:39   I'm surprised you're not soliciting the NSX.

01:52:43   I would like to try an LFA if anyone has one of those available hanging around.

01:52:47   Oh, sure.

01:52:48   There's plenty just hanging out.

01:52:49   You got one you're not using and you don't like it anymore?

01:52:52   Send it my way.

01:52:54   Twilling in the chat has one of these in white, just FYI.

01:52:57   He just put a link, I'm assuming he just put a link

01:53:00   in the chat room.

01:53:03   - You are not allowed to buy it in white.

01:53:05   - Red is the only color for this car, I'm sorry, Twilling.

01:53:07   - It comes in two different reds.

01:53:09   Although they look like two of the same red,

01:53:10   but for some reason you can get it either in red

01:53:13   or you can spend $2,000 or more and get it in the same red.

01:53:17   - Which one is the more expensive one, the darker one?

01:53:19   - I think it's the different, one of them is Tricote,

01:53:22   "compedizioni" and one of them is just regular red.

01:53:26   Your Italian pronunciation is befitting your Ohio origins.

01:53:32   Go ahead, John.

01:53:33   Tell us how it's supposed to be pronounced.

01:53:34   I don't know, but not phonetically.

01:53:36   You know, it's not saying "fogolio."

01:53:39   Like you're supposed to say the "g" and then you have to just...

01:53:42   "Cirqueza."

01:53:43   No "z."

01:53:44   "Cirqueza."

01:53:45   "Cirqueza."

01:53:46   Uh...

01:53:47   [door closes]

01:53:49   [ Silence ]