240: Undefined Wait Period


00:00:00   Oh, and what did you say? Nobody looks at a man's shoes?

00:00:02   I did not place that reference until somebody linked it in the show notes. What a surprise. What a surprise.

00:00:07   Neither one of you got my Monty Python one last week. Finally, one person on Twitter got it.

00:00:11   I don't know that I've seen Monty Python. I think I've seen Holy Grail, and that's the only Monty Python

00:00:17   I think I've ever seen. That's what I did. It was from Holy Grail. I knew I recognized the reference about the shoes.

00:00:22   I just couldn't place it until I saw the link. Does that give me like partial credit?

00:00:26   No, 'cause Shawshank is not an obscure movie.

00:00:28   I know, it's one of my favorites, too!

00:00:30   It's not an obscure line from the movie either.

00:00:32   It is a very popular movie right in your wheelhouse for your age group,

00:00:35   and it is a pivotal, important line from the movie.

00:00:37   It is. I have no excuses.

00:00:39   No, you don't.

00:00:40   Sorry, Dad.

00:00:40   I try to tailor my things to you and they just go by.

00:00:43   The Monty Python I didn't expect you to get, 'cause that's before your time.

00:00:46   But I expected more people on the internet to get it, but only one person on Twitter got it.

00:00:50   Please love me anyway. I'll try to do better.

00:00:52   Okay, I'll do it. Yeah.

00:00:54   [

00:00:54   [Music]

00:00:56   September is, among other things, the most popular month amongst Apple people, but it is also a very, very, very important month.

00:01:05   In September, it's National Childhood Cancer Awareness Month, and our dear friend Stephen Hackett, his eldest son,

00:01:12   Josiah, has

00:01:14   has been affected by childhood cancer since he was six months old, and

00:01:19   Two of Stephen's children are, including Josiah, are running or walking or doing some sort of marathon

00:01:24   to raise money for St. Jude's Children's Hospital. And if you're not from the United States, St. Jude's is a

00:01:31   children's research hospital. They take no money from their patients. They run entirely from

00:01:37   donations and grants and things like that. And so

00:01:39   this month, as every September, Stephen Hackett is trying to raise money for St. Jude's. And I

00:01:47   I can't think of a better, more universally agreeable target of your hard-earned money

00:01:54   listener than Children's Research Hospital.

00:01:57   And I mean that genuinely.

00:01:58   And so, Steven originally had asked, or had not asked, but I had hoped to raise $9,000.

00:02:05   As we record on Wednesday the 20th, he is at $17,000.

00:02:10   And I will consider it a personal failing of the ATP listeners.

00:02:13   We need a good name like Tims, like Hello Internet has.

00:02:16   But anyway.

00:02:17   not a good name. It's a fantastic name. It is not because it's gender specific, which

00:02:20   is awful. They're trying to brush over it on the re-show and it drives me nuts. But

00:02:24   anyway. We can call our listeners upgradients. That probably isn't taken. So anyway, we

00:02:30   need to call the, that didn't work at all. Yeah, we'll just edit that out, don't

00:02:36   worry. And whenever I say that, I know that means it's not getting edited out. Anyway,

00:02:41   The fundraiser is at $17,048 as I sit here now.

00:02:46   If we are not, well I shouldn't say we, if the Hacketts haven't raised $20,000 by

00:02:52   the end of September, I will consider it a personal failing of all of you that listen

00:02:57   to ATP.

00:02:58   And so I am asking, nay begging all of you, perhaps the accidentals, if you will, that's

00:03:06   terrible also, but it's the best I got.

00:03:08   The accidents.

00:03:09   the accident, so that's really terrible.

00:03:13   So I'm asking, we gotta stop this, we'll workshop it.

00:03:15   But anyway, we'll put it in the parking lot.

00:03:17   I'm asking all of you to please,

00:03:19   even if it's just a dollar, I mean that.

00:03:21   Even if it's just a dollar, whatever.

00:03:22   A dollar's more than no dollars,

00:03:24   please donate to the Hackett's fundraiser for St. Jude's.

00:03:28   It would mean a lot to Steven,

00:03:29   and it would mean a lot to all three of us.

00:03:30   So if you have any extra money with which

00:03:32   you can scrape a donation together,

00:03:34   and I mean that genuinely, I'm not trying to be a jerk,

00:03:37   please consider throwing a little bit of your hard-earned money their way because gosh knows

00:03:41   they deserve it. So just a quick serious note on that. Anything else you two?

00:03:46   I would go even further and say if we don't hit $20,000 John will give you all a thumbs

00:03:50   down.

00:03:51   Individually. He will tweet every single one of you individually.

00:03:54   All of the accidents he will tweet.

00:03:56   We don't want to just use the stick. We should use the carrot. If we break 20K we should

00:04:01   come up with a good name for ATP listeners.

00:04:04   Oh, I like that.

00:04:05   That's putting a lot of pressure on us.

00:04:07   - The person who makes it cross over 20K

00:04:10   sent us a screenshot and you might have input

00:04:12   on what the name is.

00:04:13   - Ooh, I like that too.

00:04:14   - A screenshot, because those can't be fake.

00:04:16   - Not at all.

00:04:16   (laughing)

00:04:18   - I love when people screenshot things.

00:04:19   Look, take a screenshot, then you'll have proof.

00:04:22   Young people who grew up in a world with computers.

00:04:24   - We can at least verify whether it has crossed $20,000

00:04:27   yet or not.

00:04:28   - We can verify that.

00:04:30   - It would be at least, everyone trying to fake it

00:04:32   would have to do it at around the same time at least.

00:04:35   (laughing)

00:04:36   And this would be a good problem to have.

00:04:38   All right, so. - Yeah, exactly.

00:04:40   So anyway, please, if you have any extra cash,

00:04:43   please send it to St. Jude,

00:04:45   and I know all of us would appreciate it,

00:04:47   so thank you for that.

00:04:48   - And look at it this way,

00:04:49   like, you know, Apple just released

00:04:50   a whole bunch of new crap,

00:04:52   none of which cost less than about 40 bucks.

00:04:55   Like, of everything they've released,

00:04:56   like, is there anything that costs under $40?

00:04:59   A single, any accessory or anything, probably not, right?

00:05:02   Even like, if you wanna get, like,

00:05:03   Now your phone can fast charge,

00:05:05   but you need to spend like $70 between a brick and a cable

00:05:08   to make it fast charge.

00:05:10   And we're willing to do that kind of crap all the time.

00:05:12   Like we, geeks, fans, listeners of this show.

00:05:15   So to drop like 50 or 100 bucks to St. Jude

00:05:19   for literally helping children with cancer,

00:05:22   like as Casey said, it's pretty hard to find

00:05:25   a more agreeable cause and a more beneficial cause than this

00:05:29   and the fact that the families who have to go through that

00:05:31   literally do not pay a dime for the healthcare

00:05:35   for like hundreds of thousands of dollars or more

00:05:38   worth of healthcare that their children need,

00:05:40   the last thing you wanna worry about

00:05:41   is how are we gonna pay for this?

00:05:43   You know, that's a hard enough thing for people

00:05:44   to go through.

00:05:45   So to have that burden of the finances lifted

00:05:49   from the parents who have to go through that

00:05:51   is so remarkable that this is worth supporting.

00:05:54   It's worth helping to make that possible when we can.

00:05:57   So those of us who can, please help.

00:05:59   And to go back to the the stick rather than the carrot the chat room is saying ATP ons is the leading contender right now

00:06:06   That's awful. Yeah, and that's what we're gonna use if we don't get to 20k. No

00:06:09   bad name

00:06:12   Like the stick I like the carrot

00:06:19   All right anyway moving on right so since we haven't had follow-up for a while guess what everyone

00:06:27   we've got a little bit of follow up.

00:06:29   So let's start with Marco.

00:06:30   You apparently would like to slightly correct yourself

00:06:33   about how you were slightly wrong

00:06:35   about the iPhone X screen size.

00:06:37   - Yeah, so last episode I was talking about

00:06:38   the different screen sizes,

00:06:39   and I pointed out that the iPhone X screen

00:06:42   has the same resolution, the same point width

00:06:46   as the iPhone 678, the non-plus version,

00:06:50   which I was disappointed that we're not getting

00:06:52   at least more width in screen real estate,

00:06:55   but it turns out that while that was correct,

00:06:58   it is the same number of points in the user interface,

00:07:01   it actually is physically larger.

00:07:04   I would still like to have the same density

00:07:06   and just more space, but this is better than that at least,

00:07:10   because maybe this might allow you to set

00:07:12   the dynamic text size one notch down.

00:07:15   So you can kind of find ways to fit more on screen.

00:07:18   It will also, of course, help with photos and video

00:07:21   to look better, because this is a true 3x screen,

00:07:24   So we actually are getting nicer resolution,

00:07:27   photos will look better and everything.

00:07:28   So it isn't a total loss on the width gain.

00:07:32   There is some width gain,

00:07:34   just no gain in points as measured by the screen.

00:07:38   - So we should hoist up an item from lower and follow up.

00:07:40   The guys who do Paint Code,

00:07:42   'cause the URL is paintcodep.com,

00:07:44   have a really cool diagram showing the resolution in points,

00:07:48   so the logical resolution, the pixels,

00:07:50   the physical resolution, and the physical size

00:07:52   for all the different size phones that Apple has made.

00:07:55   It's a great diagram, and if you want to have a visualization

00:07:58   of all his info all on one page that you can look at,

00:08:01   I will put that link in the show notes.

00:08:03   - I will also say Paint Code is an amazing app.

00:08:05   I used it to make my blog post of the month,

00:08:09   and it's wonderful, I absolutely love it.

00:08:12   And I have searched for this page pretty much,

00:08:17   probably once every two weeks for the last two years.

00:08:21   Like, 'cause I always have to refer like,

00:08:23   "Wait, how wide is the plus again?"

00:08:25   Or I have some question,

00:08:26   and this is right at the top of my search results,

00:08:29   and it's always purple 'cause I already clicked on it,

00:08:31   and it's just, yeah, this page is very helpful.

00:08:34   So thank you, Paint Code.

00:08:35   Also, Paint Code is an awesome app.

00:08:37   - All right.

00:08:38   I don't think it was last episode.

00:08:40   I think it was the episode prior,

00:08:41   but in the last couple of episodes,

00:08:42   we've talked about John's new MacBook Pro

00:08:44   that he has at work,

00:08:45   and how he is now a resident of Dongle Town.

00:08:48   And I thought you covered, Jon, why you don't plug your mouse or keyboard into the back

00:08:54   of the monitor, but let's talk about that.

00:08:57   And could you also cover that everyone and their mother recommended—all the ATPons

00:09:01   recommend—I can't even do that with a straight face—that everyone recommended

00:09:07   that you use some Thunderbolt dock, of which there were like five or ten different options.

00:09:12   So can you kind of do a little refresher and build on that for us?

00:09:16   so long ago no one remembers that show except for me.

00:09:19   Why not plug the mouse and keyboard

00:09:20   into the back of the monitor?

00:09:21   I'll tell you why, because I forgot

00:09:23   there were USB ports back there.

00:09:24   (laughing)

00:09:26   Whoever looks at a man's shoes.

00:09:28   I don't look at the back of my monitor,

00:09:29   I totally forgot they were there.

00:09:31   So many listeners wrote in and said,

00:09:32   "Hey, you should plug into the back of your monitor."

00:09:33   And they were right and I did and it is better.

00:09:35   So one port free.

00:09:37   - Oh, there you go.

00:09:38   - And now when I do manual KVM,

00:09:40   I just have to swap the disconnect two things

00:09:43   from their two different adapters

00:09:44   plug the two cables into the back. Anyway, I'm slowly phasing out my big Mac Pro at work.

00:09:49   I just wiped a bunch of the disks today. So it's not long for this world, and I'll be

00:09:56   down to just the one computer and I won't have to swap it. But yeah, moving things to

00:09:58   the back of the monitor. A, it actually works, which I doubted when people suggested that.

00:10:06   And I said, "Oh yeah, I should use that." I said, "Oh no, that would be really convenient,

00:10:08   but what if they don't work?" But they do, it's fine. And B, I think I'm probably just

00:10:12   gonna keep them there.

00:10:13   Although I'm having some problems with my mouse cord.

00:10:16   Like my new keyboard tray doesn't support my mouse cord in the same way the old one

00:10:20   did and it kind of adds some extra friction and now I'm starting to think about like I've

00:10:23   got to find a Bluetooth mouse that I can deal with because being corded is not, you know,

00:10:30   it's not the way of the future as they say.

00:10:33   Second question, why not use, insert my favorite Thunderbolt dock here.

00:10:37   The main reason is that they're all really expensive and I already have all these goggles

00:10:40   and adapters that I spent a lot of my discretionary desk budget at work on.

00:10:46   And they gave me some of the smaller dongles and stuff like that.

00:10:49   And the cheapest Thunderbolt thing starts at around $100 and something and they go up

00:10:52   to like $300.

00:10:54   But all that said, I have actually ordered the cheapest Thunderbolt dock I could find

00:10:59   with the main display port.

00:11:00   And I'm going to see how that works out.

00:11:02   If it actually does work better, I'll try to see if I can get that expense too.

00:11:06   But if I don't like it or if it's flaky, I'll just return it.

00:11:08   So that's an update on my dongle town.

00:11:10   - I would say too, like the various docs that people recommended, the two that got by far

00:11:17   the most recommendations were the OWC one and the Elgato one, both of which are $300

00:11:25   and not very small and externally powered by their own power supply and everything.

00:11:30   So like it isn't that surprising that maybe those can be more reliable than the little

00:11:34   like 30 to $60 dongles that we get,

00:11:37   but they also aren't particularly portable,

00:11:39   and it's also kind of a hard sell to tell people,

00:11:41   oh, this new laptop that was more expensive

00:11:44   than the one it replaced can be great

00:11:45   if you spend 300 more dollars

00:11:47   on this semi-desktop brick-looking thing

00:11:50   to make it into as useful as it used to be.

00:11:53   That's not a great sell.

00:11:55   - Yeah, if I can get work to pay for it, though.

00:11:57   I got the OWBC one.

00:11:59   They make a big, expensive one and a smaller one.

00:12:01   I got the smaller, cheaper one for $150 in space gray, the one with mini display port

00:12:07   on it.

00:12:08   Put a link in the show notes.

00:12:09   They don't do a good job of linking to items from their emailed invoices, so I'll just

00:12:12   link to the page.

00:12:13   But anyway, you'll see all of them there.

00:12:15   I got some recommendations.

00:12:16   Some people said they had tried a bunch of docs, and the ODA/OSU ones were very reliable,

00:12:20   and I've had success with their things.

00:12:21   So I'm going to try it.

00:12:22   All right, we will see.

00:12:26   Window management comes back again.

00:12:28   We did get a lot of positive feedback from people who had never heard episode, what is

00:12:32   it, 96?

00:12:34   The end of 96, whatever episode it was we linked in our most recent episode.

00:12:38   But we got a lot of complimentary feedback on that, which I appreciate, because as I

00:12:41   think Marco agreed, that is my favorite episode of ATP Bar None.

00:12:46   But anyway, we had lots of people writing in, "Well, Jon, why don't you stay Moom,

00:12:50   Tiling Window Managers, etc., etc., etc., etc.?"

00:12:52   So why not, Jon?

00:12:53   This has been discussed before, but I guess it's a perennial topic.

00:12:57   I don't use them because they don't work the way I want them to work.

00:12:59   I've tried all of them.

00:13:01   And I thank people for sending suggestions because maybe they'll always send one that

00:13:05   I haven't heard of, but they just don't work the way I want them to work.

00:13:08   Tiling, forget it.

00:13:09   I don't want to tile at all.

00:13:10   And Stay and Moom I've tried and they just don't get into my workflow.

00:13:14   A lot of them sort of are based on the notion that you have a fixed set of windows or that

00:13:19   you want to memorize a set of windows, but that's not the way I want it to work.

00:13:21   I want to just, you know, I want to be able to arrange my windows however I want them,

00:13:25   whenever I want them and have them be in the places where they are.

00:13:29   I don't want them to be snapshotted and restored.

00:13:33   I don't want them to snap to each other or the edges and be in thirds and halves and,

00:13:39   you know, as I've said, if I ever made a Mac app, it would be a window management app that

00:13:44   would work the way I wanted it to work.

00:13:47   But those type of system hacks are not really wise investments in terms of if you're going

00:13:52   to make a Mac app.

00:13:53   you probably wouldn't be able to sell them in the App Store, and the Windows Server changes

00:13:56   all the time, and yada yada yada. So anyway, I don't use those, I do it the old-fashioned

00:14:01   way.

00:14:01   So, I don't know anything about Mac programming, really, but couldn't you do that with, like,

00:14:07   sending Apple Event codes and Apple's --

00:14:09   Don't say "Apple Events." Don't say "Apple Events."

00:14:11   No, because if you could, then that might make it hard in the future to distribute this

00:14:15   app widely publicly, but you could probably make some little scripts yourself that just

00:14:20   kind of monitor for things and keep things where you want them to be.

00:14:23   It's not about keeping them.

00:14:24   My window manager that I want would have to be real time,

00:14:27   kind of like when you drag things around

00:14:29   in any application that has smart guides, like OmniGraffle

00:14:32   or Keynote or any of those things,

00:14:34   where they have all sorts of guides and snaps

00:14:37   and adjustable borders and grid things.

00:14:40   But like none of those things, though.

00:14:42   Not like-- the UI would look like that.

00:14:46   In other words, it would have to be real time drawing

00:14:48   on your screen in response to things that you're doing.

00:14:50   So forget about Apple events.

00:14:51   Forget about any snapshot your windows, which all those things have problems because windows

00:14:55   are not identifiable.

00:14:58   Like they're identifiable with humans.

00:14:59   Like that's my whatever window, right?

00:15:02   But inside the application, there's no sort of identifier of that window that matches

00:15:06   up with your identifier.

00:15:07   There's probably a bunch of unique IDs.

00:15:09   And of course there's process IDs and there's the window title and there's maybe the document

00:15:12   that it's opened up as a document window.

00:15:14   But that combination of things does not map directly to your conception of that window.

00:15:18   Right?

00:15:19   so much about keeping the windows where they are because I'm not going to resize my screen

00:15:22   or anything like that.

00:15:23   And that's what these things are trying to solve.

00:15:24   Oh, we'll just snapshot your screen so when you unplug and replug everything will go back.

00:15:27   What if I open 20 new windows and close 10 other ones or close the window and open that

00:15:32   same window again, my conception of it is that it's the same, but the application conception

00:15:36   of it is this an entirely new window, but I consider it the same window.

00:15:39   When I go back to my computer and it restores the previous state, it doesn't know about

00:15:42   all the new windows that open, has no idea where those are supposed to go, which is the

00:15:45   problem with my screen changing size.

00:15:47   And that one window that I think is the same window doesn't go back to where it was because

00:15:50   as far as the program's concerned, it's a new window.

00:15:52   So I'm setting all of that aside.

00:15:53   I'm just saying window management in general, one screen never changes.

00:15:58   I want an application that helps me with window arranging, helps me be more retentive about

00:16:03   lining things up so I don't have to do it manually a pixel at a time, which someday

00:16:06   will be really hard for me to do.

00:16:08   Like I guess it's kind of hard at retina already, but if we go like another doubling of screen

00:16:13   resolution, I'm not going to be able to line things up by the pixel anymore.

00:16:15   My eyes won't be good enough and my shaky old hands won't be good enough.

00:16:18   And then how will I live with my windows one pixel higher than where I want them to be?

00:16:23   Just remember, Jon, better to be anal-retentive than anal-explosive.

00:16:26   I gotta do both, or you can't keep it in.

00:16:29   Speaking about poopy things, let's talk Apple TV remote.

00:16:34   So, I stand by that it's really not that bad, and some people have written in and said

00:16:40   I'm right, and other people have said I'm wrong.

00:16:42   Ed Morris writes, "To John's point regarding who was able to use the Apple TV remote, my

00:16:48   five-year-old daughter. She whips that thing around like it's nothing."

00:16:52   Arbone writes, "Hard to use. My four-year-old and 68-year-old dad both use the Apple TV

00:16:56   remote without issue." Additionally, Anonymous writes, "I work at an Apple retail store.

00:17:01   The complete list of complaints about the Apple TV remote." And that was the end of

00:17:06   that section of either their tweet or email. They followed up and said, "And I've had several

00:17:10   people scream at me about it because of a free U2 album. So a lot of people apparently don't have

00:17:15   a problem with the Apple TV remote. We also got infinite feedback I measured about how why don't

00:17:20   you use such and such Amazon link and I'm assuming it was like a case for the remote or in some cases

00:17:25   like a tail. Oh one of those like rubber condom things. Yeah exactly and I have never tried these

00:17:31   because I don't mind the Apple TV remote. Some days I like it, some days I have ambivalence

00:17:36   toward it, but I presume and thought that one or both of you guys have tried like a

00:17:43   remote condom or a tail or whatever, right?

00:17:46   I haven't because I just find like as much as the Siri remote annoys me, the idea of

00:17:52   having some kind of big like rubber gummy thing around it, that just seems even worse.

00:17:57   Like those things are just ugly and just feel weird and the whole reason you buy Apple stuff

00:18:04   is because it's nice.

00:18:06   Like I want this remote to be nice,

00:18:07   to fit in with the other nice things

00:18:09   that are in my couch and living room area.

00:18:12   Like I don't want some weird rubber thing around it.

00:18:14   Like the real solution is fix the damn remote.

00:18:18   Like the real solution is make the remote work nice

00:18:21   rather than just having it look nice.

00:18:23   Apple used to be able to do both.

00:18:25   - So the reason I put all these quotes in here

00:18:27   is because I think they're a good example of how,

00:18:32   I was gonna say how people can get used to anything,

00:18:35   But it's not "get used to," it's more like—I'm trying to think of a good analogy.

00:18:41   Maybe if you had—in the DOS era, everyone's using DOS and its precursor operating systems

00:18:49   on Apple II and all sorts of other—like Tandy, Commodore PET, whatever, Commodore

00:18:54   64—they're all command lines, right?

00:18:57   And everybody's using them, and most people would agree that there is some baseline level

00:19:04   of difficulty of using computers. But even in that environment, plenty of people would

00:19:08   say the Commodore 64 is not hard to use, my 8 year old daughter has no problem, you know,

00:19:12   my 5 year old is on the Commodore 64 all the time and they love it, so how hard could it

00:19:16   be to use? And my 68 year old dad uses the Commodore 64 and he's fine, right? And if,

00:19:24   say, there was a graphical operating system that comes along and some people are still

00:19:28   using DOS, you might say, "Well, okay, so DOS can be learned and used by people old

00:19:34   and young, but computers could be easier to use. Look at this." And the opinion you could

00:19:40   have there is, "Well, you may think that's better, but only sort of froufri connoisseurs

00:19:46   care about these so-called usability and user-friendliness that's better. I know WordStar and DOS backwards

00:19:53   and forwards, and I teach a class of seventh graders to use it and they are experts in

00:19:58   it, and so you may think this whole thing with like little pictures of folders and stuff

00:20:03   is better, but it must be better in some subtle way that only essentially hipsters, although

00:20:08   they didn't have that word back then or didn't mean the same thing, only hipsters can appreciate,

00:20:12   right?

00:20:13   But in the grand scheme of things, time has shown that a graphical user interface is in

00:20:18   general better than having everybody use the command line, and it took a long time for

00:20:23   had to happen, but at any given point when the command line was still the paradigm and

00:20:28   GUIs existed, it wasn't clear. They would say, "I have no problem with the command line."

00:20:34   Well, Apple's remote, and indeed all remotes, this was brought up by people, all remotes

00:20:37   are pretty terrible, with a few exceptions. And you might say, "Well, they're bad, but

00:20:43   people use them all the time." Like, whatever, there's a remote that comes with your cable

00:20:46   box, and yeah, it's a little bit weird and complicated, but you know, my five-year-old

00:20:49   picks that remote right up and knows right what to do, blah, blah, blah. How bad could

00:20:52   the remote really be? There exists good remotes, but people would say, "Oh, maybe that's better,

00:20:59   but only better in weird subtle ways that like remote hipsters and real connoisseurs

00:21:03   of usability snobs might care about." I think we're in the same situation where most remotes

00:21:09   are terrible, people get by with them because they can get the job done. And by the way,

00:21:13   one point that a lot of people brought up that we should be fair to the album, but one

00:21:15   thing the album does have going for it is that it doesn't have a lot of buttons, which

00:21:19   which is one of the big complaints about most remotes that you see, right?

00:21:23   All that said, that we can exist in a world where all that is true, and also the Apple

00:21:27   TU remote is awful for all the reasons that we have stated, right?

00:21:31   Just like the other remotes are awful for different reasons.

00:21:33   They have way too many buttons, and maybe the buttons are hard to press, or they die

00:21:37   after a certain period of time.

00:21:39   But even though the Apple TU remote has a small number of buttons, it is worse than

00:21:44   your average cable box remote in important reasons like how easy is it to find?

00:21:49   How easy is it to pick up without inadvertently doing something?

00:21:51   How easy is it to find which way is up?

00:21:53   How safe do you feel when picking it up?

00:21:55   Or do you have to pick it up like a game of Operation?

00:21:56   Because if you touch anywhere on the touchpad, something is going to happen.

00:22:00   And do people have accidental inputs and have trouble doing the gestures?

00:22:03   Yes, they do.

00:22:04   I see it all the time.

00:22:05   Does it mean that they can't use it?

00:22:06   And it's like one of those as seen on TV commercials where the person gets egg shells in their

00:22:10   hair and their house catches on fire when they're trying to make an egg.

00:22:12   Oh, eggs are so messy.

00:22:14   Like no, it just means that it's not a good remote.

00:22:17   And how do we know it's not a good remote?

00:22:18   better remotes exist. The TiVo remote is absolutely 100% a better remote. Easy to find, easy to

00:22:26   pick up, easy to grip. You can use it in the dark. Once you learn how it feels, you can

00:22:30   use the select button and the 5-way and the play/pause and a bunch of buttons that are

00:22:32   different shapes that are all under your fingers that are prioritized. The important ones are

00:22:37   close to you and the unimportant ones are far away. It's an amazing remote, right? It's

00:22:42   not like we don't know how to make a good remote. And it's also telling that almost

00:22:45   no remote is as tiny and skinny as all the Apple TV remotes because they get caught in

00:22:49   the couch cushions because they're hard to pick up and almost none of them have an always

00:22:52   on completely active capacitive touch swipey thing on them because then it's very difficult

00:22:57   to pick up and almost none of them are symmetrical front and back in ways that you can't tell

00:23:01   without either looking at it or putting a rubber band around it or something. So yes,

00:23:05   your five year old daughter can use it and yes, your six year old dad can use it, but

00:23:09   it is a bad remote. We should want better. We know better can exist. The difference may

00:23:13   seem subtle to you, but it's not subtle. In the long term, we will look back on this remote

00:23:17   and say, "This is the hockey puck mouse of the remotes." And we'll say that when Apple

00:23:23   finally makes one that's better.

00:23:25   I saw these quotes appear in the show notes, and because I'm the eternal optimist, I thought,

00:23:31   "Oh." Well, I think I added the last one, but I thought, "Oh, maybe they're realizing,

00:23:36   the two of them, that things aren't so bad." I should have known, however, that this was

00:23:41   just a bait and switch waiting for me." And that, "Oh no, this is just more fodder."

00:23:46   It's like that. DAS is not so bad either, right? I mean, people used it for years. It's

00:23:51   fine. You get the job done, right? You could even get kind of good with it. But it is worse

00:23:55   than a GUI for most people. And again, the things that make a good remoter are not mysterious.

00:24:01   The reason we are so angry is because there are obvious problems with it. The fact that

00:24:06   it's so small. I mean, I think it's actually better for five-year-olds because their hands

00:24:08   are so tiny. Regular people's hands. It's like trying to change a channel on a stick

00:24:14   of Wrigley spearmint gum. No, that's not how big my hands are. Just make it so that...

00:24:21   Anyway, I'm still angry about the remote. You can feel free to suffer through it.

00:24:26   I had no idea. All right, so...

00:24:29   That was glorious.

00:24:30   Do you have good news for us, Jon, with regard to fans and the Apple TV 4K?

00:24:35   I asked last week for some very pointed questions about the Apple TV and I got some responses

00:24:40   that I consider hopefully reliable and authoritative.

00:24:43   The Apple TV 4K does not have a fan, so that question answered.

00:24:47   Does have holes in the bottom, or bigger holes than the other one did, but it does not have

00:24:50   a fan.

00:24:51   So thumbs up on that.

00:24:53   And about the 24 frames per second cadence, still a little bit of mystery.

00:24:57   The only direct feedback I got was someone telling me that it can do 4K 24 frames per

00:25:01   second but not 1080p 24 frames per second but then on parentheses on my TV.

00:25:06   What does that mean?

00:25:07   Does that mean that the box can't do it or your TV can't do it?

00:25:09   I don't know.

00:25:10   It will not automatically switch.

00:25:11   Apple doesn't seem to believe TVs will change video modes fast enough or reliably enough

00:25:14   to make it worth it.

00:25:15   So my parsing of this is that perhaps, I don't have this box yet, my order has not arrived

00:25:19   yet, but perhaps you can set the thing to output 24 frames per second to your 4k television

00:25:25   in which case I guess the menus and the whole interface would be 24 because it never changes

00:25:30   Which is not ideal because what if you want to watch a television show that's 30 frames per second or?

00:25:35   29.9 7 9 7 or whatever the hell it is like bottom line is I want it to switch modes

00:25:40   I want it to switch modes the same way that the other boxes that connect to television can and do do to match

00:25:46   The cadence of whatever content it is showing if you can find a number

00:25:50   That's a multiple 24 and 30 those numbers exist. I swear they do math tells me so

00:25:55   Then you can get away with it, but just by having a higher refresh rate and then you know

00:26:00   Duplicating frames an equal number of times. Anyway, we'll all find out when we get our televisions Marco can find that on his fancy TV

00:26:07   I'll find out on my old TV and we'll see but there is a glimmer of hope I guess

00:26:11   Alright, and then Lane Watson writes in to say I online chatted with an Apple wrap about any streaming or cash benefit favoring the

00:26:19   64 gig Apple TV and they were advised that the capacity difference is for downloading only

00:26:24   I refuse to believe. Say it isn't so. I mean, the only reason I'm holding on a shred of

00:26:31   hope like Casey about the follow-up being optimistic is that it's an Apple rep and very

00:26:35   often like is it like a salesperson? Is it somebody at an Apple store? How would they

00:26:40   know? How would they know how big the cash is for downloaded movies, the flexible storage

00:26:46   management, the variant of iOS that it's using? Who knows what it's doing? Like we already

00:26:50   know there's a whole way in iOS and in macOS I think where you can tag data as purgeable

00:26:57   but so essentially use all the space you want but the operating system will consider it

00:27:00   purgeable so if it needs that space it will chuck it.

00:27:03   They have that technology why would they not use it?

00:27:04   What do you think you're telling me that the 64 and what is the smaller one the 32 reserve

00:27:10   exactly the same fixed amount of space for downloaded movies?

00:27:13   It's plausible I suppose it is but I want to believe that they instead say hey guess

00:27:18   Guess what, when we cache downloaded movies,

00:27:19   we're gonna use that great API

00:27:20   that we introduced two years ago

00:27:21   that lets me mark data as purgeable

00:27:23   and we'll just use up as much space as we want

00:27:25   and knowing full well that if anything else

00:27:27   in the system needs that space, it will dump it.

00:27:29   Please let that be the case.

00:27:31   Anyway, I ordered 64 mostly because I wanted

00:27:33   to give them enough money to make a new remote.

00:27:35   - Even though they didn't.

00:27:36   No, I mean, I also ordered 64

00:27:39   because it's only $20 difference on an almost $200 purchase.

00:27:43   So I figured like this might never matter

00:27:47   But usually I keep Apple TVs for a pretty long time.

00:27:50   They aren't updated that frequently,

00:27:51   so even if you buy every one,

00:27:53   you're still keeping it for a few years at least.

00:27:55   So I figure just in case it matters

00:27:58   for anything I choose to do, either now or down the road,

00:28:01   I'll take the extra $20 risk.

00:28:03   Again, I don't know why they even have this difference

00:28:06   and why this premium priced thing

00:28:08   needs to have two different models separated by 20 bucks,

00:28:11   but for some reason it does.

00:28:14   And I guess it worked on me and John

00:28:16   because we gave the next 20 bucks.

00:28:18   I would say if you are too unwilling to do that,

00:28:20   give 20 bucks to St. Jude.

00:28:22   (laughing)

00:28:23   - Yeah, I bought the big one and the previous one too,

00:28:24   and it's totally because I want to give money

00:28:26   towards this product because I want them to make this better

00:28:28   because I bought a lot of movies and iTunes

00:28:30   and I don't wanna go through the hassle

00:28:31   of having to un-DRM them.

00:28:33   - Wow, wait, I have a couple of questions or thoughts.

00:28:36   First of all, they've now updated the Apple TV

00:28:39   twice in as many years, haven't they?

00:28:41   - I believe the first one came out two years ago,

00:28:44   the Apple TV4, so it's on a roughly two to three year cycle historically.

00:28:49   Okay. Well, in either way, when do you keep anything Apple makes for more than like an

00:28:53   hour ever, Marco?

00:28:55   Oh, I was looking at laptops on eBay this week. I didn't pull the trigger on any of

00:28:58   them, but I was looking at them like...

00:28:59   Hey, hey, hey, there we go.

00:29:00   Oh, I forgot to mention some more Donal. It's not the fault of the computer, but speaking

00:29:04   of my new MacBook Pro, I think it is the fault of some terrible third-party software that

00:29:08   work and insists on installing on it that I've hopefully disabled, but I would disconnect

00:29:12   it from my monitor and then I would open the lid and it would just sit there with a black

00:29:16   screen staring at me and it would be working fine. I could tell because you could command

00:29:20   tab and you'd see the touch bar changed. I recognized oh that's the touch bar from Safari.

00:29:24   Oh that's touch bar. You know what I mean? Like I could tell that the computer was working.

00:29:28   That's a clamshell thing. Yeah the screen was 100% black. Yep. Clamshell thing. And

00:29:33   there's like no way to bring it back. The only way I found to bring it back is if I

00:29:36   if I logged out it would show me the login screen right. So then the screen would come

00:29:40   back on. I have no idea why that's the case. But anyway, I think it's because of some stupid

00:29:43   display link driver for some kind of USB driven hub. Nope. And I disabled that and I haven't

00:29:48   had the problem since, so fingers crossed. Give it time. Probably isn't. Yeah, I'm with,

00:29:52   I'm, my experience is that that does happen probably once a week if you're not diligent

00:29:58   about like either opening the lid before you unclam shell or sleeping the computer before,

00:30:04   no actually I've had it happen when I sleep the computer. Oh yeah, I'll try, I'll try

00:30:07   - Probably the open lid thing starts happening.

00:30:09   I need to know all the secret incantations

00:30:10   to make a laptop work like a real computer.

00:30:12   (laughing)

00:30:13   - That's so bad.

00:30:14   - No, this is like, my experiment this summer

00:30:16   mostly failed, like I was going to bring home

00:30:18   the LG monitor and replace this iMac

00:30:22   with my clamshell MacBook Pro setup

00:30:25   until the Mac Pro comes out next year.

00:30:27   And one of the reasons why I'm not doing this

00:30:30   is because it turns out using a laptop as a desktop

00:30:35   It can work, but a real desktop does a way better job of it

00:30:39   on a number of fronts.

00:30:40   And so, if you can afford to have a desktop

00:30:44   and a laptop as separate computers,

00:30:47   you generally will not regret that decision

00:30:48   if you do a lot of work with it as a desktop.

00:30:51   And I do, I work almost only with it as a desktop.

00:30:55   And in fact, what I probably should have done

00:30:57   is kept Mike's MacBook escape and just gotten my,

00:31:01   and either brought this iMac to the beach

00:31:04   literally spent the difference of money on a new iMac

00:31:07   just for the summer usage.

00:31:10   That would have been a better use of the money

00:31:13   than buying myself another 15 inch

00:31:15   and then forcing it to be a desktop for most of its life.

00:31:19   So next time I buy a laptop,

00:31:23   I intend for it to be only a laptop.

00:31:26   And if you have the luxury, dear listeners,

00:31:29   of using your laptops only as laptops,

00:31:32   you have a much better experience than if you try to make a laptop behave and be used

00:31:37   as a desktop.

00:31:38   Why you said that, a lot of people ask why I don't have a desktop. Work won't let me.

00:31:43   I have to get a laptop. That's why I'm doing this. I would rather have a desktop.

00:31:46   I don't know if I agree with you, Marco, about laptops being terrible as desktops. I think

00:31:52   the problem is Mac OS and MacBook Pros, or really any Macs, they're not well suited for

00:32:01   clamshell because if you do like the the LCD by itself or the LCD you know

00:32:07   sitting next to an external monitor that generally speaking works pretty darn

00:32:12   well the problem that you have which I share and I hate just like you do is

00:32:17   that clamshell mode is just good enough to keep us using it but pretty freaking

00:32:24   terrible all told and that's where everything falls apart so I wouldn't say

00:32:28   that laptops are, on the whole, completely unusable as desktops. It's just the way you

00:32:33   and I prefer, and Jon actually, I prefer to use them, is not that great and is fraught

00:32:40   with peril.

00:32:41   I wonder if you can bring an iMac on the ferry.

00:32:44   I don't see why not. It's heavy though.

00:32:46   You can bring it to Panera Bread.

00:32:49   Is it just Panera now? Did they drop the bread? They probably dropped the bread.

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00:35:23   (upbeat music)

00:35:26   - All right, let's talk about Apple Watch with LTE,

00:35:29   another thing that, in this case,

00:35:31   I was fired up about and you guys were less so.

00:35:34   So Charles Arthur has written a blog post

00:35:37   that's relatively long,

00:35:39   but there's a really good poll quote that I have here.

00:35:43   And he was saying that, in the same way I was,

00:35:46   the $10 a month that Americans are being charged is outrageous. And he said, "Why is it outrageous?

00:35:52   Because watch cellular data use is not additive. It's substantive, substantive, whatever that

00:35:58   word is I'm looking for. If you're pulling in data on your cellular watch, you must have

00:36:02   left your phone behind. Ergo, you're doing nothing with the phone, so it's consuming

00:36:07   next to no data. The data consumption has shifted to your watch." And I know that this

00:36:11   is probably not 100% completely and utterly true, but I think his point is fair in that

00:36:19   in general you're going to be using data on your phone or your watch in general and not both.

00:36:26   But data usage doesn't matter. There's no additional data. They don't care where you use

00:36:30   your data. If the carrier has an actual argument, it's network capacity because your phone is still

00:36:37   on the network. It's still hogging whatever, you know, spectrum and identification space that could

00:36:42   be used by another phone that's in use. It's not off the network when you're away from home. It is

00:36:47   still on the network. So that would be their answer. But you know, like I said, the real

00:36:50   answer is it has nothing to do with how much does it cost the carrier to have an additional device.

00:36:53   It's what will the market bear? And that gets us back to the root problem, which is that the market

00:36:57   for telecom in the US is not as competitive as it should be. There are a very small number of very

00:37:02   large companies that probably collude and do terrible things that we don't like, and there's

00:37:06   there's nothing we can do about it. That's why we're angry. And this is just like, this

00:37:10   is the US carriers flexing their muscle. They're taking advantage of the situation they're

00:37:18   in. And our complaint is really, we don't like the situation they're in. And that's

00:37:22   why other countries have these obscenely inexpensive rates, because either they have better systems

00:37:28   of government or companies that are actually competing with each other or the government

00:37:32   mandates that the companies have to be interchangeable in a certain way or all sorts of things that

00:37:35   make their environment for telecom better than the environment in the US. And that's

00:37:39   really what we're angry about at the root. Not so much, "Oh, this isn't worth $10 and

00:37:43   let me tell you because it doesn't cost them $10 to do this." That's not how business works.

00:37:46   It doesn't matter how much it costs them to do something. It just matters what the market

00:37:51   will bear. So the market is messed up in the US.

00:37:53   Well, I think it's both. I also don't think it's worth this kind of money.

00:37:56   Yeah, but you can't have that kind of thinking. It doesn't cost Marco any more money when

00:38:00   someone buys a new copy of Overcast. Does that mean it's not worth it? It's what the

00:38:04   market will bear, right? He doesn't have to like carve the bits out of a little

00:38:07   stone tablet every time someone subscribes to Overcast, Premiere or

00:38:10   whatever. Yeah, I know what you're saying and I should also add that I saw a ton

00:38:15   of feedback about what other countries are being charged and if there was

00:38:20   anyone who said, "Oh yeah, it's the same as America," then I genuinely don't

00:38:24   remember it because pretty much everyone said, like Australians were saying it's

00:38:27   about five bucks a month in either Australian or American dollars, I forget

00:38:31   which Canadians said it's about five dollars a month or five loonies or

00:38:36   whatever it is they use up there. That sounds right. They're sorry. They're so

00:38:40   very sorry. And also, you know, confirmation bias alert coming up. I did

00:38:45   not see anyone say to me, "No, you're crazy and it's exactly how much, you know, $10

00:38:51   a month is exactly right and you should stop whining." Now, I probably should stop

00:38:55   whining, but I was stunned because just about everything I say on this show,

00:38:59   somebody will come out of the woodwork to disagree with. And I did not see not one of those. And I concede,

00:39:05   unequivocally, this is confirmation bias at its finest, but hand on heart,

00:39:09   I do not remember seeing anyone say that. So it doesn't mean that those people don't exist, and please, for the love that is of

00:39:15   all that is good and holy, that does not mean, listener, that agrees with Marco that this is your moment to shine.

00:39:20   I know that you're out there, and I know there are people that disagree with me.

00:39:23   I was just surprised how few people wrote in, because that number seemed to be zero.

00:39:28   Anyway moving on Craig Federighi went on a press tour to talk about the face ID recognition

00:39:34   Flub up and and up swipe overlap and all sorts of different things

00:39:39   Does one of you want to tell us about this I put this in here

00:39:44   I'm linked to the talk show where Craig went on with a John Gruber and they had a

00:39:49   Conversation too short conversation because I guess they're busy and that had a lot of things to do only 30 minutes, but worth listening to

00:39:56   And Andreas Goebb wrote in say that this

00:40:00   interview on the talk show confirmed the idea that I put forward last show about how the iPhone 10 could

00:40:09   Let you swipe up before it has recognized your face

00:40:13   Just let you do it and if in the process of you know

00:40:17   It's doing the animation to show you the screen where you have to type in your passcode to unlock the phone

00:40:21   If during that process at any point it recognizes your face just go straight through it rather than saying hold the phone up to your face

00:40:28   Wait for it to recognize your face then swipe up. So Craig

00:40:32   Confirmed that it does in fact overlap them and it you know

00:40:36   That's smart thing to do and Apple has smart folks and so that's what they're doing

00:40:39   and so we'll put a link in the show notes to the entirety of that episode and also the

00:40:43   Timestamp at I think 16 minutes and 45 seconds where you can hear that bit

00:40:48   - Yeah, I'm actually kind of happy that,

00:40:50   I mean, I know it probably really sucked for Apple

00:40:54   that the demo failed on stage,

00:40:56   but I'm actually kind of happy that the result of that

00:40:59   has been, we've gotten some really great interviews

00:41:01   out of Craig over the last few days.

00:41:04   And so, you know, yeah, I mean,

00:41:05   it's unfortunate that it happened,

00:41:06   but it's kind of nice for fans of the company

00:41:09   following all this stuff to have all this additional

00:41:11   exposure and information and good questions being asked

00:41:15   and getting more details about how Face ID works.

00:41:17   because the iPhone X is still a while out.

00:41:20   Like it's still, you can't even order it

00:41:22   for over a month from now,

00:41:24   and it's probably going to be at least,

00:41:28   I would say probably January,

00:41:30   before a lot of people even have them.

00:41:33   So this is still a while out,

00:41:34   so to get any more information earlier is kinda nice.

00:41:37   - You don't think you would've gone on this,

00:41:39   done all this press if the demo hadn't failed

00:41:42   for explicable reasons?

00:41:44   - No, I don't.

00:41:45   - I agree.

00:41:45   - Craig is going around doing all these interviews

00:41:47   all of a sudden talking about Face ID

00:41:48   and how awesome it is because it fell on stage.

00:41:51   And this is a form of damage control.

00:41:53   That seems to make sense.

00:41:54   I mean, part of it is also reacting to people's concerns

00:41:57   about how secure and private it is,

00:42:00   but I don't think that would've been enough

00:42:04   to get an Apple executive to go give interviews like this.

00:42:06   I think it's because it failed

00:42:08   and there was some bad press about that

00:42:10   'cause it didn't just get noticed by nerds like us.

00:42:14   Everyone noticed and there were news articles about it.

00:42:16   - Yeah, it was the worst kind of mistake

00:42:18   because it is explicable,

00:42:21   but there's nuance in the explanation

00:42:22   and nobody wants nuance.

00:42:24   All they want is Apple demo fails.

00:42:26   - Yeah, there's no way this would have happened

00:42:28   had the demo not gone the way it did.

00:42:31   But again, I think this is good for us,

00:42:34   and ultimately it's fine for Apple

00:42:35   'cause long term no one's gonna remember this,

00:42:36   but it's good for us to get all these wonderful interviews.

00:42:39   And Craig's a pretty awesome person

00:42:42   and there's always tons of info

00:42:44   in anything that he says publicly.

00:42:46   He obviously is very familiar with technical details,

00:42:49   with implementation details, with reasons

00:42:52   that they do things, and he's able to explain those so well

00:42:55   that he gives really good interviews about technical topics.

00:42:58   And so it's always really nice to hear more from Greg.

00:43:02   - Someone had a funny tweet when people were leaking

00:43:06   supposed inside news from the tense rehearsals

00:43:09   after the leak, right, when all the Apple people

00:43:11   were rehearsing their thing knowing that all this information

00:43:14   leaked out there and they're all angry about it and everyone was yelling at everybody and

00:43:18   someone tweeted that the worst thing about this Apple leak is learning that Craig Federighi

00:43:23   yells at people sometimes.

00:43:25   "Don't want to believe it, not Craig!

00:43:29   Hair daddy would never yell at me!"

00:43:31   I'll tell you one thing, hearing that he was yelling and getting mad, that drove home

00:43:37   to me like, "Wow, they must be really mad."

00:43:39   Assuming it's even true, I mean, that's just random hearsay from, I'm sure, people

00:43:43   who are inside the room during rehearsals

00:43:45   are texting secrets out of it, who knows?

00:43:48   - Yeah, the one thing, when we heard those rumors,

00:43:51   the one thing I kept thinking of,

00:43:52   how many people could possibly have been in that room?

00:43:54   - Right, are they on their phone in the audience

00:43:56   going, this is wild, guys.

00:43:58   - Yeah, it's not like there's somebody in,

00:44:01   are there like 10 people in the room?

00:44:04   And they're not gonna be low-ranked people

00:44:07   who are gonna be leaking stuff.

00:44:09   They're not gonna have any random person in the room

00:44:11   when they're rehearsing their super secret keynote

00:44:13   days before the event.

00:44:15   - Anyway, everyone's human and I'm sure people were mad

00:44:18   and it was a difficult time.

00:44:19   And that demo, yeah, it was rough because like,

00:44:24   especially, I don't hold regular people to this

00:44:26   or even like the regular press, but for the tech nerds,

00:44:29   we'll get into this, actually the very next item,

00:44:31   let's just transition to it immediately

00:44:32   because I will make the point in both contexts

00:44:34   that it wants to save time.

00:44:36   The next item here is that APFS support for Fusion Drives

00:44:40   is not in the release version of High Sierra.

00:44:42   It was in the betas and Apple talked about it

00:44:44   and it would totally be a thing that you can have.

00:44:46   But then when they got ready to do the release version,

00:44:48   said, you know, here it is from right from Apple's page

00:44:51   with Google link.

00:44:52   If you installed the beta version of macOS High Sierra,

00:44:54   the fusion drive from your Mac may have been converted

00:44:56   to Apple file system basically if you check that checkbox,

00:44:58   you know, that they present during the betas.

00:45:01   Because this configuration is not supported

00:45:03   in the initial release of macOS High Sierra,

00:45:06   we recommend that you follow the steps below

00:45:08   to revert back to the previous disk format.

00:45:10   and this is long arduous series of steps to convert back.

00:45:13   This and also the on-stage demo of an unreleased product

00:45:19   for tech nerds specifically, not for the regular press,

00:45:21   not for casual people, but for tech nerds specifically,

00:45:25   this is what unreleased software,

00:45:28   unreleased hardware and beta software means.

00:45:31   It means that it might not work right

00:45:34   and things might change before the release.

00:45:36   And if you enter into a beta or watch a demo

00:45:39   something that is unreleased with the expectation that everything absolutely

00:45:44   must work perfectly and will not change before release you are misunderstanding

00:45:47   what a beta is. It just so happens that most of the time Apple is good with its

00:45:51   betas and more or less there's a steady progression from early betas to late

00:45:54   betas that converges on a finished product that we expect. But this is

00:46:00   exactly what happens during betas. The feature is there, they do all the betas

00:46:03   on it, they want to release it eventually, sometimes things get cut. APFS will

00:46:09   convert your SSD unconditionally blah blah blah they make that policy decision

00:46:12   they say the one that's working on fusion drives has a few more problems

00:46:15   we're gonna hold that back it will not be in the initial release and if you're

00:46:18   using a beta and all of a sudden you're really mad like oh it converted my drive

00:46:21   but now the release version won't work with it blah blah it was a beta this is

00:46:25   what betas are all about I think people are spoiled by betas that basically

00:46:28   never have any harmful effects and they can smoothly sail right from them to the

00:46:32   release version that shouldn't be expected to be the norm nor should it be

00:46:35   expected that an unreleased piece of hardware and unfinished software should demo perfectly on stage.

00:46:41   Never mind the fact that the hardware and software both worked as expected. It was a procedural error

00:46:47   having to do with the demo. Basically the people who were cleaning the fingerprints off the thing

00:46:50   accidentally locked them by activating Face ID too many times, which would make sense even if

00:46:56   Face ID required a swipe up. Anyway, I just want to, you know, tech people should remind themselves

00:47:03   Not done, beta, unreleased, those are all things

00:47:07   that we should expect that there will be bugs

00:47:09   and there will be changes before release.

00:47:10   So anybody who is super mad about that

00:47:12   and is also a tech nerd needs to like

00:47:15   check themselves a little bit.

00:47:16   - Before they wreck themselves, I know.

00:47:18   - I mean also just like, you know, everyone always asks,

00:47:20   every time there's a beta season,

00:47:23   we get tons of questions, people saying,

00:47:25   is it okay to install the beta on my phone

00:47:27   or whatever else?

00:47:28   And for an iPhone, you know, my answer is always like,

00:47:32   If you're able to do a restore at any time

00:47:35   and tolerate that amount of downtime,

00:47:38   because that might happen with pretty much any beta,

00:47:40   then sure, you can give it a try if you want.

00:47:43   If you don't need your phone to be that reliable, fine.

00:47:46   And I usually put the betas on my main phone

00:47:49   usually around beta two or three.

00:47:51   I have never installed a Mac OS beta

00:47:54   on my real computer, ever.

00:47:57   And I don't intend to.

00:47:59   To me, the needs that your computer has

00:48:02   should be far more conservative

00:48:05   than what you're willing to do

00:48:07   on an easily restored iOS device.

00:48:10   Your computer, that is like, for me at least,

00:48:12   I know this is maybe an antiquated view these days,

00:48:15   but the computer for me is like my primary store

00:48:19   of everything, it is my master device.

00:48:22   If everything else fails, my computer still has to work.

00:48:25   I need, like the computer has the master copy

00:48:28   of all the data, it is the thing that I can back up the most

00:48:31   that I can rely on the most, the thing I need to use

00:48:35   the most for work purposes and for hobby stuff.

00:48:38   Like I need my computer to be reliable all the time

00:48:42   at any cost.

00:48:44   And so the idea of installing beta software

00:48:47   of my main computer OS in a way that like formatting a drive

00:48:52   or losing all data would be inconvenient

00:48:55   or a problem or slow me down at all,

00:48:57   that just sounds like a terrible idea to me.

00:49:00   Like the only time I've ever installed a beta

00:49:02   has been on a laptop when I have not needed

00:49:06   to use it anytime soon.

00:49:07   And even then, like I almost never even do that.

00:49:12   Like you know, I think the last time I did it

00:49:13   was when they did Safari reading list

00:49:17   and I wanted to see what that was like

00:49:18   'cause I was still running Instapaper

00:49:19   and I was worried that it would be too good

00:49:21   and nobody could tell me how it was

00:49:22   so I installed the beta.

00:49:24   But otherwise, most people have no good reason,

00:49:28   unless you're a Mac developer working on cutting edge stuff,

00:49:31   most people have no good reason

00:49:33   to install macOS betas at all.

00:49:36   And if you're going to do it,

00:49:38   do it on basically a disposable installation.

00:49:41   Do it on a disposable partition, on a disposable disk,

00:49:44   on a computer that you don't really need right now.

00:49:47   Never ever do it on anything that matters,

00:49:48   because that's, it's hard enough for them

00:49:50   to get macOS releases stable

00:49:52   when they are released to the public.

00:49:54   let alone in the beta, like forget it.

00:49:57   - Yeah, I've never put a macOS beta

00:49:59   on anything I've ever owned.

00:50:01   And I can't imagine a reason I would,

00:50:04   other than what you've described, Marco.

00:50:05   Like it just seems really a poor choice to me,

00:50:08   unless you're like a macOS developer, like you said.

00:50:11   And similarly, I, generally speaking,

00:50:15   I avoid putting betas on my phones.

00:50:17   You and I both made the critical rookie mistake of,

00:50:20   was it the one with--

00:50:22   - iOS 5. - Yeah, with notifications

00:50:24   Center that, oh man, you and I I think ran right back to our hotel rooms right after

00:50:29   the keynote or something like that. I mean it doesn't matter exactly when it was.

00:50:32   We did it over lunch.

00:50:33   I think that's what it was. It was something like that that the both of us were like foaming

00:50:36   at the mouth. We were so excited to do this. And I think it took both of us but hours to

00:50:41   deeply, deeply regret our actions. And ever since then, like I know that you just like

00:50:47   you said, you put on betas relatively quickly. But I don't think for the last two or three

00:50:53   versions of iOS. I don't think I've put a beta on my phone. I think I might have,

00:50:57   you know, like this with iOS 11, I think I've been running the GM since it was

00:51:01   released a few days back, but I don't think I've put an honest-to-goodness

00:51:04   beta on my phone in a long time. And I agree, Marco, that once you get through

00:51:08   the first two or three, usually it's pretty okay. But in my experience, since I

00:51:13   don't absolutely need to for work and I can get, you know, I can get my hands on

00:51:16   test devices and things like that, and we're rarely on the bleeding edge for

00:51:20   these sorts of things anyway, I just, I don't recommend it, generally speaking, because

00:51:24   you never know what's going to happen. In my phone and my computer, I agree with you,

00:51:29   Marco, 150%, that those I do not want to mess with. Now, my iPad has been on iOS 11 for

00:51:34   a while, because for me, the iPad is kind of expendable, and if it doesn't work, eh,

00:51:39   oh well.

00:51:40   - Yeah, that's a reasonable way to do it. But like, and like, for most people, I just,

00:51:44   I can't think of a compelling reason. Like, the real, like, I don't install macOS betas

00:51:48   is because honestly I just don't care.

00:51:51   Mac OS improves so slowly these days

00:51:54   that I can't even tell you what's in High Sierra

00:51:57   besides the file system.

00:51:59   I know there's a couple of things,

00:52:00   but most of it's like here's something for business Safari.

00:52:03   The Safari team is really pulling the weight

00:52:04   of the entire OS when it comes to notable features

00:52:08   that can be bullet points in a slide somewhere.

00:52:11   If you exclude Safari changes,

00:52:14   it's a pretty thin release

00:52:17   as far as user-facing features go.

00:52:18   And of course, every release of Mac OS X these days

00:52:20   breaks something also.

00:52:22   So it's like, I have to wait,

00:52:23   like am I willing to tolerate whatever part of

00:52:27   networking or USB or graphics or the PDF subsystem

00:52:31   or whatever, like, whatever they broke audio,

00:52:33   like whatever they broke in this version of Mac OS,

00:52:36   am I willing to tolerate that

00:52:38   to get whatever the new stuff is?

00:52:39   And usually there's so little new stuff

00:52:41   that I'm just, I can be very conservative and patient

00:52:44   the version of macOS I choose to run.

00:52:47   And you should check software update because you can get that new Safari right now and

00:52:49   you're the iMac you're sitting in front of.

00:52:51   I installed it today at work.

00:52:52   Oh yeah?

00:52:53   Same.

00:52:54   Yeah.

00:52:55   No more auto playing videos.

00:52:56   Go into the settings.

00:52:57   Yeah, in that case, what do I need to hide Sierra for?

00:53:00   You got the most important feature, the file system.

00:53:02   That's the one that Apple is advertising the most, right?

00:53:03   Or wait, no, is it just this program?

00:53:05   Hmm.

00:53:06   On betas, I've also had iOS 11 on my iPad for real time.

00:53:11   And also because iOS 11 was so iPad focused and had all the fancy iPad features that I

00:53:14   really wanted to see. But yeah, I don't care about my iPad's stability that much, and so

00:53:18   I suffered through some weird bugs. I didn't upgrade my phone, and that meant I was kind

00:53:24   of startled when I finally did upgrade to iOS 11 on my phone by a few things. I already

00:53:28   complained about one on Twitter about the -- that I missed the dots. I didn't think

00:53:32   I would miss the dots, but guess what? I missed the dots. And for the signal strength thing.

00:53:37   Oh, the little circles? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I kind of missed them. But really, the one

00:53:41   One thing that surprised me the most is that even with reduce motion enabled, which you

00:53:44   know I love to have enabled, when I unlock my iPhone 7 with touch ID, a big curtain raises

00:53:53   from the bottom.

00:53:54   Almost as if I had flicked upward, like on an iPhone 10, right?

00:53:57   But I didn't flick upward, I just used touch ID.

00:53:59   And even when reduce motion is on, that big curtain goes upward.

00:54:01   And it's not a big deal, doesn't bother me that much, but I kind of miss whatever the

00:54:05   old animation was, probably a crossfade, it probably takes the same amount of time, but

00:54:10   It's an animation that I'm not accustomed to seeing.

00:54:12   I guess I'll get used to it, but that's one of the things that I would have known about

00:54:16   months and months ago if I had been installing the betas.

00:54:18   And I could have complained about it earlier, and you know how important that is to me to

00:54:21   get complaints out early.

00:54:24   So that Apple could potentially fix them, but it's not a big deal.

00:54:26   It's not like my lack of lasers, which could not stand as we know.

00:54:31   Yeah, but you got that eventually.

00:54:33   I know.

00:54:34   It took a whole week.

00:54:35   We have to wait till the next show.

00:54:37   I'm still bitter that I lost that bet.

00:54:39   And at such speed, too.

00:54:41   I know, exactly.

00:54:42   It really rubbed my face in it.

00:54:44   To that end, something I've noticed, which I think this is legitimate and I'm not just

00:54:50   bananas, but when I...

00:54:52   So I have a picture of Aaron and Declan as my lock screen backdrop, whatever it's called,

00:54:58   wallpaper I guess.

00:54:59   And if I tap the sleep/wake button, the thing that's still there on the iPhone 10, I feel

00:55:05   like it kind of fades in in a way that's different than iOS 10 and I don't know

00:55:10   how to describe it I tried to take a screenshot of it yeah it does it does

00:55:14   fade in okay so I'm not totally bananas well at least not for that reason anyway

00:55:18   yeah there's a bunch like iOS 11 ads even more people who don't have reduced

00:55:22   reduced motion on are even those people are a little bit startled by the the

00:55:26   more sort of expressive animations about applications flying back into their

00:55:33   icons and all sorts of cross fades and things. I think it looks nicer in general, but if

00:55:38   you, you know, it has pushed some people over the edge. Like, they could tolerate the amount

00:55:42   of animations in iOS 10 and iOS 11 and just push a few more people over the edge to go

00:55:46   hunting for that reduced motion thing.

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00:57:47   (upbeat music)

00:57:49   - All right, so an anonymous Apple retail employee writes,

00:57:54   "On the back end of something,

00:57:57   were some significant changes to the way that the Genius Bar appointments work. Two years ago,

00:58:02   you more or less had to already have made an appointment online to be seen. Today's Genius Bar

00:58:06   holds back the majority of personnel in order to improve the experience for those walking into the

00:58:10   store to ultimately be seen within five to 30 minutes. Because of this, there is much less

00:58:16   availability for those who are enrolling from home. Please feel free to encourage the world to

00:58:19   walk into a store and be helped rather shortly. The ultimate goal here is to do away with the

00:58:25   days of "needing an appointment" in order to see someone at the Genius Bar.

00:58:29   I have such mixed feelings about this because on the one side, when I have an "oops" because

00:58:34   I just dropped my phone, I want to be seen pretty much immediately. But on the other side,

00:58:38   I'm the kind of person who likes scheduling things and who likes signing up in advance.

00:58:43   And I don't want to be punished just because I have the forethought to actually register myself

00:58:48   on the website. Yeah, who wants to wait 30 minutes? It needs to be like a real-time operating system

00:58:53   with deadlines, right? I can't go to the store for an undefined wait period. Like, I'm going to go

00:59:00   and get my thing and it's like, how long will you be waiting? I don't know. I mean, because you could

00:59:05   end up having to just abort the entire thing because an hour has passed and you haven't been

00:59:08   seen. An appointment, as the Seinfeld episode so eloquently emphasized, like, you know, you make a

00:59:15   reservation. And the important part of the reservation is that they hold the reservation.

00:59:20   So that when you get there, they say, "Yes, we recognize that we had arranged previously

00:59:25   to meet here at 3."

00:59:26   And if you arrive at 3, they aren't ready to receive you at 3.

00:59:29   That's how reservations work.

00:59:31   And I understand there's a balance.

00:59:32   You don't want to just have reservations because then everybody walks in like, "Sorry, you

00:59:36   have to make a reservation," and the nearest reservation is like going to a restaurant

00:59:39   that you can't ever get a table at unless you have a reservation two months out or something.

00:59:42   So it is difficult, and all this gets back to the discussion last week, which was one

00:59:47   One of the important functions of Apple retail is to have a place where people can go to

00:59:52   have someone help them with their thingy in person.

00:59:54   It's one of the most important functions of the Apple store.

00:59:56   Otherwise why not just sell everything online?

00:59:58   It's that you can go there and say my thing's not working.

01:00:00   It's broken.

01:00:01   I don't understand it.

01:00:02   Please help me with something.

01:00:03   Right?

01:00:04   And they will help you and they're great at it.

01:00:06   They do a good job and so on and so forth.

01:00:07   And there's high demand for that service because that is a good service.

01:00:12   High demand, not enough supply, long waits and they try to balance it.

01:00:16   How many reservations should we take if we take too few reservations?

01:00:20   That means if you try to make a reservation have to be two weeks out

01:00:23   But if we take too many reservations the walk-ins can't get served. I don't know what the solution to it is

01:00:27   I'm just expressing our frustration as users of the Apple Store with the system as it exists today

01:00:33   Maybe it's untenable and it's not economical for them to not make us wait

01:00:38   It is more economical to make us all wait for a small amount of time because I don't say whatever what's the alternative, right?

01:00:46   But that's you know, it's just us as customers of the Apple store expressing our dissatisfaction because I think most of us for the most part

01:00:52   buy things online rather than

01:00:54   Feel like we have to go to the Apple store to get especially if you wanted ASAP

01:00:58   We're there with the whole force quitting the app store app, you know all these schemes

01:01:02   We're not going to the mall at 5 a.m. And sitting in a big line. It's preferable for us to order them online

01:01:08   We do go there to check out products like oh, I want to see the new iPhone 10 mine hasn't arrived yet

01:01:15   but I hear they're in the stores.

01:01:16   That's another important function of the stores,

01:01:18   show off the merchandise.

01:01:20   Let people ooh and aah at it,

01:01:21   especially particularly people who aren't like tech nerds

01:01:24   and I've already read everything about it,

01:01:26   but just like regular people wandering through the mall,

01:01:28   they can say, "Ooh, there's the Apple store,

01:01:29   let's go check out stuff."

01:01:31   But yeah, I think it's, even those functions,

01:01:34   it's not serving that well

01:01:36   because the stores are often very crowded,

01:01:37   but the service function is the one that I feel like

01:01:42   has had the most challenges over the years.

01:01:43   So, you know, it's interesting to hear their strategies

01:01:47   for improving it, but I don't think

01:01:48   there are any easy answers.

01:01:50   - Yeah, and also like the whole thing where like,

01:01:54   oh, just show up and see how long you have to wait,

01:01:56   like that really doesn't work for people if, for instance,

01:02:00   the nearest Apple store is three hours away.

01:02:02   - Oh yeah, great point.

01:02:04   - Like there's a lot of people for whom

01:02:05   the nearest Apple store is not just,

01:02:08   you can't just pop over there anytime you want

01:02:09   and just, oh, it's gonna be two hours?

01:02:11   Oh, I'll come back.

01:02:12   Like, it's not that easy, you know?

01:02:13   So there's issues like that.

01:02:15   And also just like, I mean my experience,

01:02:18   and maybe this is just my local stores,

01:02:20   my experience has been the opposite.

01:02:23   That I used to just never make appointments

01:02:24   and just walk in because it used to be relatively common

01:02:28   that I'd get seen within 20 minutes and I just,

01:02:31   it would be fine.

01:02:32   And then in the last year or two,

01:02:35   that's been pretty much impossible.

01:02:36   And I walk in, they will either refuse to even book me

01:02:40   as a walk in, wait around reservation,

01:02:43   and just say, "Sorry, we are so full.

01:02:45   "You can't even do this."

01:02:46   Or they do a thing where they're like,

01:02:48   "Oh, well, sign up for this thing,

01:02:50   "and then we'll text you when it's about

01:02:51   "to be your appointment time."

01:02:53   But the current estimated time is like two hours away

01:02:55   or something, and it's like, "Okay, so what am I gonna do?

01:02:59   "Drive home, and then it's gonna take me

01:03:01   "25, 30 minutes to get back here,

01:03:03   "so am I gonna miss my window?"

01:03:06   That doesn't work for people, for a lot of people.

01:03:10   It works if you live next to an Apple store

01:03:12   and you can just pop over there whenever you want

01:03:14   and don't have a job and don't have anything else to do,

01:03:16   like that would work.

01:03:17   But for most people, something a little more predictable

01:03:22   is what you need there.

01:03:24   I will say though, overall, we got way more feedback

01:03:28   than I expected about the retail segment

01:03:32   that we talked about last week.

01:03:33   You know, we were talking about Angela Ahrens'

01:03:34   retail update and things like that.

01:03:37   And we must have a number of retail nerds in our audience

01:03:41   'cause we got, of everything we said last week,

01:03:46   about everything about the event

01:03:47   and all the new products that were announced,

01:03:49   our complaints about the retail segment

01:03:51   were by far the most controversial things

01:03:52   we said according to the feedback.

01:03:54   Like, we got so many people saying like,

01:03:57   "Well, this wasn't really for you,

01:03:58   "this was explaining to X,

01:04:01   "whether it was explaining to the world of retail

01:04:03   "how Apple is saving the dying American retail sector,

01:04:06   "or whether it's explaining to the retail employees

01:04:08   "how to boost their morale

01:04:09   and what they're doing means a lot and everything.

01:04:12   All sorts of feedback from people who either claim to be

01:04:16   or were obviously very close to the retail world.

01:04:20   Saying why that segment not only needed to be there

01:04:24   or needed to be that long and detailed,

01:04:26   but what Angela Ahrens was really trying to say

01:04:29   and why that was so important and everything.

01:04:31   So I guess it resonated with somebody,

01:04:33   with people who were in the retail business.

01:04:36   I can just say as an Apple customer and fan

01:04:38   and commentator, it didn't resonate with me at all.

01:04:41   But apparently, it worked for a lot of people.

01:04:44   - A lot of the explanations were things like,

01:04:46   you don't understand how important Apple is,

01:04:48   they're like, they're keeping these malls alive, right?

01:04:50   That's great, that's fine.

01:04:51   But why does anyone need to be told

01:04:53   that Apple stores are keeping malls alive?

01:04:54   That's not a message that needs to get out,

01:04:56   and I don't think that was in there.

01:04:57   They just wanted to tell you more things about their store.

01:04:59   And I still am not sure

01:05:02   who they were trying to convince of what,

01:05:04   'cause I don't think they're trying to convince people

01:05:06   that they're not trying to tell the rest of the retail industry

01:05:10   how they should do things, because why would they

01:05:11   help their competitors?

01:05:12   And they're not trying to take credit for saving malls,

01:05:14   because what the hell does Apple care about malls?

01:05:18   I still think it is a lot of deep thinking about what

01:05:22   a store can be when I wish they would think more about what

01:05:27   their store already is and how it can do what it is doing

01:05:30   better.

01:05:31   And that's why I put this feedback in here,

01:05:33   because this is an Apple retail employee saying,

01:05:35   things that you're asking for them to do, they are doing that, but they're also thinking

01:05:39   big about how a store can be a town hall, whatever, you know, I don't know.

01:05:44   Anyway, I thought it was a little overly long in a presentation that had some very important

01:05:49   products to get to.

01:05:51   Came after two other segments, right?

01:05:53   Maybe if it had been in the front we would be complaining about whatever the third one

01:05:56   was, right?

01:05:57   Because it was a lot of lead-in before they got to the three big announcements, but in

01:06:01   In the grand scheme of things, it's not iCards.

01:06:04   It was fine.

01:06:05   iCards, no one remembers that.

01:06:06   No one on this podcast anyway, but listeners remember.

01:06:09   Doubtful, but that's okay.

01:06:11   No, they totally do.

01:06:12   All right.

01:06:14   Please do not email and tweet us to say that you remember iCards.

01:06:17   Okay, time for some Ask ATP.

01:06:19   That actually went quicker than I expected.

01:06:21   I'm proud of us.

01:06:22   Really?

01:06:23   An hour?

01:06:24   That was quicker than I expected?

01:06:25   Given that we didn't have any follow-up last time, I am pretty pleased.

01:06:29   Jamie Billet writes in to say, oh man, I should have taken this out of the show notes, I didn't

01:06:34   look closely enough.

01:06:36   Jamie Billet, my new enemy, writes in to say, "If the new Mac Pro doesn't have Nvidia, will

01:06:42   it be a failed product?"

01:06:44   No, moving on.

01:06:45   Martin Diering writes...

01:06:46   I hope you got it right, guys.

01:06:47   Can't answer an extreme.

01:06:48   Why is this...

01:06:49   You got the answer right, though.

01:06:50   I like the fact that you got the answer right.

01:06:52   The answer is no, it won't be a failed product.

01:06:54   What does that even mean?

01:06:56   So, this is how I interpret the question.

01:06:59   I talked a lot about how Nvidia is kind of at the top of the heap in GPUs currently and

01:07:03   the Mac Pro is supposed to be the fastest and bestest thing in the world so shouldn't

01:07:06   it have Nvidia and they're saying if it doesn't have that, if it has a lesser GPU, a GPU that

01:07:10   is not as good, that is not as popular, that doesn't have as much software optimized for

01:07:14   it, will it be a failed product?

01:07:15   The answer is no.

01:07:17   The Mac Pro should be the best, fastest thing Apple can make if for some strategic or stupid

01:07:23   reason they want to go with AMD instead of Nvidia. AMD makes some good graphics cards.

01:07:29   If the Mac Pro is expandable, reliable, and frequently updated, it matters not as much

01:07:35   that it has the fastest and best video card on the market, as long as the next year there's

01:07:41   a new version with a better video card and so on and so forth. It would be a better product

01:07:46   probably if it shipped with Nvidia today, but I don't think it will be a failed product.

01:07:50   way it will fail is kind of like the trashcan fail. If it is never updated, if it has reliability

01:07:56   problems that are never addressed, if it doesn't address the needs of the customers that aren't

01:08:00   fulfilled by the iMac Pro and stuff, that's what will make it a failed product, not the

01:08:03   lack of Nvidia.

01:08:06   And then Chris Adamson asks, "Hey, how is John liking the beta of Twitter Effect for

01:08:10   the Mac, aka Phoenix?" And he also asks, "Do the other two use native Twitter clients or

01:08:17   the web. And Chris, I am deeply offended that you would think that I would use either the

01:08:21   native Twitter client or the web because they're both dumpster fires. Both Marco and I use

01:08:26   Tweetbot.

01:08:27   >> BRIAN KARDELL (

01:08:47   on the Mac. Earlier in the summertime, I deleted Tweetbot from my phone. I've tried various

01:08:54   schemes and tricks over the years to reduce my Twitter usage because I have frequently

01:09:01   been using Twitter too much, which has made me waste a lot of time and be less happy.

01:09:07   I tried for a long time deleting it from the desktop and only using it on phones and tablets

01:09:12   and laptops and stuff, so it was not on my main computer.

01:09:16   And this made things like work difficult,

01:09:18   'cause my work sometimes involves posting things

01:09:20   to Twitter, like when I'm doing podcast live broadcasts

01:09:23   and when I'm just asking questions about,

01:09:25   you know, Apple APIs and stuff,

01:09:28   and so it was actually fairly difficult for me

01:09:30   to not have it available to me on the desktop.

01:09:34   It turns out, by deleting it from my phone,

01:09:37   I do still have it available, because I also have

01:09:40   the official Twitter app installed.

01:09:42   The official Twitter app I bury in a folder,

01:09:45   I have to only get to it from search,

01:09:48   and I find that it isn't very tempting

01:09:51   to just keep going to it over and over again

01:09:53   because the official Twitter app is so horrible

01:09:57   that it actually discourages you from using it very much

01:10:00   or for very long periods.

01:10:02   - Hey, put that quote in their App Store description,

01:10:05   Mark O'Armond, this app is so horrible

01:10:07   it will discourage you from using Twitter, Mark O'Armond.

01:10:09   It honestly is, like Twitter's app is such a confusing,

01:10:13   horrible mess of God knows what.

01:10:15   And the way it messes up your timeline

01:10:18   and puts the important stuff you might have missed

01:10:20   like up top, it actually is so hard to use

01:10:23   for more than about 10 seconds that it totally kills

01:10:27   my desire to continue to see it over and over again.

01:10:30   And so by not having it be visible on any of my home screens

01:10:34   and also by having it be so awful,

01:10:37   I still have Twitter if I want to post a photo

01:10:41   I just took while I'm out or something like that.

01:10:44   And if I really need to check something

01:10:45   or look something up, 'cause honestly,

01:10:47   sometimes you need to look stuff up on Twitter

01:10:49   and the website is really awful for that,

01:10:50   so I do occasionally have to check it for things.

01:10:53   But that's, having the official Twitter app

01:10:56   is enough to allow that, those kind of

01:10:59   basic occasional needs, but it's so bad

01:11:02   I don't wanna use it constantly.

01:11:03   And not having Twitter on my phone,

01:11:07   means that in the millions of other times

01:11:09   throughout the day when I'm wasting a few seconds

01:11:12   by reading my phone, and notably, the significant times,

01:11:17   right before I go to sleep and the first thing I do

01:11:19   when I wake up, if I'm not taking care of a kid

01:11:21   or a dog immediately, if I'm lying in bed for a few minutes,

01:11:24   or I'll read stuff on my phone like many of us do,

01:11:28   not having Twitter be a part of either of those times

01:11:32   and not having it be part of most of those little

01:11:34   interactions throughout the day where I'm just checking

01:11:35   stuff to like idly browse things or idly waste time

01:11:39   has been a dramatic improvement in my happiness level.

01:11:43   Just generally of how I feel about life

01:11:46   and what's going on in the country

01:11:47   and crazy people who follow me

01:11:49   and are occasionally rude and stuff like that.

01:11:52   It has given me an amount of distance from that

01:11:54   that I find incredibly satisfying and healthy

01:11:57   in a way that my previous experiments

01:11:59   of trying to delete it from my Mac and stuff didn't achieve.

01:12:03   It's so pervasive on the phone,

01:12:05   like every time I paid for my phone,

01:12:06   I would be checking Twitter

01:12:08   as like one of the very first things I did.

01:12:09   And now, I check email, which is usually nothing

01:12:13   'cause I have systematically destroyed the reason

01:12:17   for most people to ever email me

01:12:18   or the mechanism for them to do so over the last 10 years.

01:12:22   So email is pretty quiet.

01:12:26   RSS is there, I check that all the time

01:12:28   in the Unread app, which is wonderful.

01:12:30   And I check Instagram, which is happy,

01:12:33   'cause it's people posting pictures of fun things

01:12:35   and happy things.

01:12:36   And to not have Twitter be part of that,

01:12:39   like those apps that you just check habitually,

01:12:42   has been really nice, and I highly recommend it.

01:12:44   And to the people at Twitter who make the official app,

01:12:49   just never get better.

01:12:50   (laughing)

01:12:53   - Oh my word.

01:12:55   Yeah, I really should try that at some point.

01:12:57   - One thing I would love to have,

01:12:58   I mean one of the things that kept drawing me

01:13:00   to Twitter was that over the last few weeks

01:13:02   I've been having a number of interactions

01:13:03   with people over direct messages.

01:13:05   And so I'd have to keep checking it

01:13:07   to make sure I was up to date on those conversations

01:13:09   or to respond to them.

01:13:10   I was unable to find a Twitter client

01:13:15   that only does direct messages.

01:13:17   It seemed like one of them did exist.

01:13:19   It doesn't exist anymore.

01:13:20   All the links were broken.

01:13:21   It's not in the app store anymore.

01:13:23   If anybody knows of a good Twitter client

01:13:24   that is DM only, I'd love to know about that.

01:13:27   - That's an interesting idea.

01:13:29   We're gonna answer my part of the question here before I move on, by the way.

01:13:32   Oh yeah, go ahead.

01:13:33   How do I like Phoenix?

01:13:34   It's great.

01:13:35   You should get it.

01:13:36   It's totally what I always dreamed the modernized version of Twitter would be, and I love seeing

01:13:41   the updates that are slowly adding, not slowly but pretty quickly adding all the new features

01:13:44   that were, you know, missing.

01:13:46   First you couldn't do direct messages, then you couldn't get info on the people, then

01:13:49   you couldn't show threads, and it's just like they're all like one after the other.

01:13:52   I love it.

01:13:53   Everyone should check it out.

01:13:54   It's great.

01:13:55   We are sponsored this week by Betterment.

01:13:57   Rethink what your money can do.

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01:15:17   Betterment, rethink what your money can do.

01:15:23   There was some chatter about the Face ID training, which came through in part from the interview

01:15:29   with a friend of the show, Matt Panzorino at TechCrunch.

01:15:33   And just quoting Matt, he said, "Especially given that the data needed to include a high

01:15:38   fidelity depth map of facial data, so says Federighi, Apple went out and got consent

01:15:43   from subjects to provide scans that were, quote, 'quite exhaustive,' quote.

01:15:47   Those scans were taken from many angles and contain a lot of detail that was then used

01:15:50   to train the Face ID system.

01:15:52   As mentioned above, Apple went to great lengths to gather its own data for on-facial shapes

01:15:56   and angles.

01:15:57   And when it did so, it made sure to gather them across a broad basis of geographic locations,

01:16:02   ages, and ethnic backgrounds.

01:16:04   Federighi says that Apple has tested it extensively and it should not matter what your cultural

01:16:07   background is, Face ID should work with your face.

01:16:11   So that was Matt Pansarino summarizing an interview with Craig Federighi.

01:16:16   As I was reading this, it occurred to me, "This sounds familiar.

01:16:21   Where did I read this?"

01:16:23   And then I remembered.

01:16:25   An anonymous listener wrote us on the 2nd of June, 2017.

01:16:29   That listener wrote, "I was lucky enough to participate in a study ran by the scientific

01:16:32   consulting firm Exponent in a major U.S. city.

01:16:35   The study was run in multiple U.S. cities and also multiple sites abroad.

01:16:39   At my site each day about 70 or 80 participants, six days a week for about two months, at least

01:16:44   So 3,000 to 4,000 people or thereabouts were asked, or they were recruited, and that was

01:16:51   both individuals and family groups.

01:16:53   With family groups, they had to sign up two or more people related by blood.

01:16:56   And this listener writes, "This strongly suggests authentication.

01:17:00   Obviously you want to be able to differentiate between relatives who can look very similar."

01:17:05   And they describe in quite a bit of detail what the test was, and it involves filling

01:17:10   at a survey, talking about your skin tone and things like that. The consent form talks

01:17:17   about how you're going to have an infrared laser shined at you, shined, whatever shined

01:17:21   at you. During the session, you're asked to use the device for a series of tasks, which

01:17:25   according to the listener was an iPhone 7 Plus with a heavy case-like attachment, blah,

01:17:30   blah, blah. And then they talk about the different tasks, which I kind of want to read, but I'm

01:17:34   trying to summarize this at least slightly. Also, they have you test for looking at the

01:17:39   phone, looking away from the phone, using different kinds of lighting, different kinds

01:17:42   of headwear with hats and scarves and sunglasses and masks, etc., and different background

01:17:47   objects and so on and so forth. And each participant was given ten variations, not the same ten,

01:17:51   and there were many other tests involved. So I just thought this was fascinating. This

01:17:55   is certainly within the realm of time where I think we thought Face ID was possible, but

01:17:58   this was, you know, again, three months ago, three and change. And this is clearly, to

01:18:04   me describing what the face ID test or not test but the face ID like data acquisition

01:18:10   process was all about. I just thought that was fascinating.

01:18:12   Each person got a hundred bucks too. Not cheap to run this. If you think of how many thousands

01:18:17   of people and they had to pay the staff and then you know the building to have them all

01:18:21   in and then give each participant a hundred bucks. Apple's got a lot of money.

01:18:24   Yeah. So I just thought that was fascinating. There are more details which John isn't allowing

01:18:30   me to tell you about but they are there. You can say if you can summarize them.

01:18:34   Find the interesting ones.

01:18:35   Find the interesting tidbits.

01:18:37   So the tasks they did-- a task was a game where dots appear

01:18:41   randomly on the screen.

01:18:42   You're asked to identify the emoji animals that pop up

01:18:44   in the dots as they flash by.

01:18:46   And they thought it was an eye-tracking calibration.

01:18:49   Task two, this had many variations,

01:18:50   but the basic structure was the same.

01:18:52   You're seated at an arc-shaped white table with a white wall,

01:18:55   more like a fabric surface, in front of you.

01:18:57   The wall and table are both divided two by three or three

01:18:59   by three grids by black lines with numbers in each partition.

01:19:02   In each variation, you're asked to hold the phone up

01:19:04   toward one partition of the grid, as if taking a selfie,

01:19:07   and then turn your head toward another partition,

01:19:10   so sometimes you're facing the phone, sometimes you're not.

01:19:12   You turn your eye to look at the phone or keep them straight,

01:19:14   then press the record button on the phone,

01:19:16   and then do an action with your face.

01:19:17   Shake your head in a different way, cover your face, et cetera,

01:19:19   and then the recording is done automatically.

01:19:22   Who knows if this was really Apple,

01:19:23   but certainly to my eyes, it seemed to be.

01:19:26   And then that explains how they trained this,

01:19:28   because obviously Apple's a very diverse company.

01:19:30   Maybe I shouldn't have said that.

01:19:33   Apple is more diverse than some of the companies that I see, and there are more employees of

01:19:38   various backgrounds there than a lot of companies.

01:19:40   Let me try to phrase it that way.

01:19:42   And so they could certainly, and I'm sure they did, train on internal people, but it

01:19:47   seems like they also did a lot of work by seeking out other people, which is great.

01:19:52   That's what I would hope.

01:19:53   And this is the only report I've heard about this, and this was sent directly to ATP.

01:19:57   I'm not saying that other reports don't exist, but it's the first I've heard.

01:20:00   - Yeah, I've been thinking about this email a lot

01:20:02   over the last couple of weeks as this Face ID thing

01:20:06   was ramping up and then it was finally unveiled.

01:20:08   And it's pretty cool.

01:20:10   I assume this was real.

01:20:12   I assume this was a true report

01:20:14   that was not just some made up tip or anything.

01:20:16   If so, it makes a lot of sense.

01:20:17   It's totally plausible.

01:20:18   And it's pretty cool that Apple went to such lanes

01:20:22   to try to get a lot of people's data

01:20:25   for training and everything else.

01:20:26   And all of this, as Craig has very happily pointed out,

01:20:30   over the last couple of interviews he's done,

01:20:32   all this is not being based on collecting data

01:20:36   from the field from iPhone 10s.

01:20:40   Like it's not reporting your face data back to Apple

01:20:43   for it to improve its algorithms

01:20:45   and train its machine learning.

01:20:47   It's doing separate studies that people

01:20:49   are explicitly opting into and being paid for

01:20:52   to get its data and to train its models.

01:20:55   And so that's, it's just all like, it's pretty cool.

01:20:58   it's really quite cool.

01:21:00   - And it does learn from your face,

01:21:01   but that information never leaves the phone,

01:21:03   which is kind of a bummer if you get a new phone

01:21:05   or get your front thing replaced

01:21:07   'cause you cracked the screen or something.

01:21:08   Basically like with Touch ID,

01:21:09   it's gonna mean that you have to retrain it on your face

01:21:12   and it's gonna start over with learning.

01:21:13   So hopefully the learning curve isn't too bad,

01:21:14   but that's the whole MO with this stuff

01:21:16   is that it's in the secure enclave, it never leaves it.

01:21:19   And so if you break the front of your phone

01:21:21   and they have to replace the thing

01:21:22   that connects to the secure enclave, guess what?

01:21:24   You gotta re-register your face and start the learning over.

01:21:26   But that's how it learns with your face

01:21:28   as you age, as you slowly grow a beard,

01:21:31   hopefully as you put on scarves in the winter,

01:21:34   you'll have the scarf not obscuring your whole face

01:21:37   and it'll figure out that sometime the scarf is there.

01:21:39   I don't know how good it's gonna be

01:21:41   in terms of can you just put on a ski mask one day

01:21:44   and have it still recognize you.

01:21:45   But it does learn and improve as,

01:21:47   just like Touch ID by the way,

01:21:49   both these things do learn and improve just from you.

01:21:51   And it's just between you, the phone,

01:21:53   and the secure enclave, that's it.

01:21:55   - Moving on, we should probably dive back in

01:21:57   to the iPhone announcement or the keynote from last week.

01:22:02   And we have a little bit of information

01:22:05   about the Apple Watch.

01:22:07   Our Apple Watches are due to arrive,

01:22:08   potentially as listeners are hearing this.

01:22:11   The cellular watch has 16 gigs of storage

01:22:16   and the non-cellular watch has eight gigs.

01:22:18   And at first glance, that seems kind of weird, right?

01:22:20   Because the cellular watch can stream things,

01:22:23   but the non-cellular watch can't.

01:22:24   So you would think you would want more storage

01:22:26   on the non-cellular watch.

01:22:27   but everyone seems to agree, and I guess it makes sense,

01:22:30   that you're gonna wanna cache the things

01:22:32   that you've streamed, and so maybe having more space

01:22:34   does make sense on the cellular watch.

01:22:36   - Just waiting for someone on the watch team

01:22:37   to write in and tell us, "No, the extra space

01:22:39   "isn't used for caching."

01:22:40   (laughing)

01:22:41   - Yeah, it'll be from an online chat support agent.

01:22:45   No, I mean, that actually, so it makes some sense.

01:22:47   First of all, the cellular model is $70 more,

01:22:50   so they have a little bit more leeway in the margins,

01:22:53   but also a cellular watch is more likely to be used

01:22:58   as a standalone music playback device

01:23:00   than a non-cellular watch.

01:23:02   'Cause somebody who's going to go seek out

01:23:03   and buy the cellular one probably intends to use it

01:23:07   as a workout device wirelessly with music playing.

01:23:11   The chances of that being used for that purpose

01:23:13   are way higher than other watch models.

01:23:16   And if you're gonna go take a run with the watch,

01:23:19   one way you could do that, technically, with music,

01:23:23   is to literally stream the audio off the internet.

01:23:27   Another way you could do it is the cellular

01:23:30   should only be used very, very sparingly

01:23:33   and the watch can be smart and just cache things

01:23:36   from Apple Music that you like or that you've selected

01:23:39   to be available on your runs.

01:23:40   And Apple Music, based on recommendations and algorithms

01:23:43   and everything else, it knows before you go out running

01:23:46   what you should probably be listening to.

01:23:48   So it probably buffers that stuff overnight or something,

01:23:51   when it's plugged in and when it's charging,

01:23:53   it probably tries to fill as much space as it can

01:23:56   with downloaded music that it can then play for you

01:24:00   without touching the cell network at all.

01:24:01   'Cause then it saves data, it saves a ton of battery life,

01:24:05   and it works with intermittent connectivity areas.

01:24:08   Like what if you're running under,

01:24:10   you know, between buildings in New York City

01:24:12   and the cell connection would keep dropping

01:24:14   or whatever else.

01:24:15   It has cellular, yes, but that doesn't mean Apple's

01:24:18   going to use it aggressively,

01:24:20   because from all the reviews that have come out today,

01:24:23   it looks like it has a tremendous cost to battery life,

01:24:27   and that even if this alleged Wi-Fi bug

01:24:30   that they're saying is causing

01:24:31   some of the connectivity problems

01:24:32   that some of the reviewers had,

01:24:34   even if that is fixed shortly,

01:24:36   'cause it probably will be,

01:24:38   it does seem like the LTE connection of the watch

01:24:42   is not very aggressive about staying connected.

01:24:45   It seems like it only connects if it really needs to.

01:24:50   And so if they have enough space on the watch

01:24:54   to buffer a whole bunch of music before you go for a run,

01:24:57   why would you stream it?

01:24:59   Like why wouldn't you just play your buffer?

01:25:01   And then if you run out of buffer,

01:25:03   then maybe stream some stuff.

01:25:04   But why burn the battery when you don't have to?

01:25:08   - Yeah, that makes sense to me.

01:25:10   Actually, real time follow up on the watch,

01:25:13   Jason Sonnell has communicated with me

01:25:15   via the magic of Slack and told me

01:25:17   that what you just said, Marco, is absolutely correct.

01:25:19   the watch does use some of those like fancy pants Apple music playlists and

01:25:25   caches those overnight in addition to some of the music that it knows you like

01:25:30   and it tries to suck those in at least on the cellular models suck those in

01:25:33   overnight while it's charging when you're not on they said that in the

01:25:37   keynote which is why you have that vague memory of it that's where it's from yeah

01:25:40   well now I learned the iPhone I thought a couple of interesting things which may

01:25:46   I don't think we're noticed or noted in the keynote.

01:25:49   First of all, it includes the little headphone adapter,

01:25:52   the lightning to, what is it?

01:25:54   T-L-L-D-R, whatever it's called.

01:25:57   - T-R-R-S. - T-R-S, yeah, T-R-S.

01:25:59   - T-L-D-R adapter. - Yeah, as soon as I said that,

01:26:02   I was like, "Oh no, I do remember."

01:26:03   Anyway, it does include the adapter,

01:26:05   which I would say I lost a bet with myself.

01:26:08   I thought it would be included in the 7 and never again.

01:26:10   And I understand that not everyone upgrades every year,

01:26:13   so it makes sense for it to still be there,

01:26:15   But I had expected Apple to be kind of aggressive about getting rid of it, and they weren't,

01:26:20   which is a good thing, I'd say.

01:26:22   But it was surprising.

01:26:24   And then additionally, there are no USB-C cables of any sort included in the iPhone

01:26:30   box, no sort of adapter, no cable, nothing like that, which I can't decide if I think

01:26:35   that that's totally bananas or makes perfect sense.

01:26:38   And I think I'm ever so slightly leaning toward that makes perfect sense, even though it is

01:26:42   It is weird that none of their brand new computers,

01:26:45   or laptops I should say, can plug into an iPhone

01:26:48   without some sort of an adapter.

01:26:49   I don't know, Marco, what do you think about that?

01:26:51   Is that weird or does that make sense?

01:26:54   - I mean it sucks that we don't have an all USB-C world,

01:26:56   but the fact is we don't have an all USB-C world.

01:26:58   So if they would include the USB-C power adapter,

01:27:02   or USB cable in the box, as the only one,

01:27:05   then you would have the issue of like,

01:27:09   you can't plug it into pretty much anything

01:27:11   people use to charge their phones.

01:27:13   Yes, people do often charge their phones

01:27:15   by plugging them into their computers,

01:27:17   but they charge them way more often

01:27:19   by plugging them into other things,

01:27:20   power adapters, docks, USB outlets,

01:27:23   other USB multi-port things,

01:27:25   and none of those things really are USB-C yet,

01:27:27   practically speaking.

01:27:28   So if there's gonna be only one cable in the box,

01:27:31   I still think it makes sense for it to be the USB-A cable.

01:27:35   Now, you could also argue, as some people have,

01:27:38   that they should just put two cables in the box,

01:27:40   put a USB-C and a USB-A cable.

01:27:42   And that would be interesting.

01:27:44   I think Apple's argument against that,

01:27:47   there would be a small reason to not do it

01:27:50   for the sake of margins to be able to sell $25 cables

01:27:53   to the people who want this function.

01:27:55   But I think their bigger argument would be

01:27:57   that would be very wasteful, that like,

01:27:59   almost everybody, by definition,

01:28:02   almost everybody who got an iPhone

01:28:04   would not use that second cable.

01:28:06   They would almost certainly only use one of those.

01:28:09   so it would be kind of wasteful to have a cable in the box

01:28:12   that almost everyone's throwing away.

01:28:14   That doesn't make it great.

01:28:16   This is still an annoying problem,

01:28:18   but I think the other solutions to it would probably be worse.

01:28:22   While we're on the topic of the iPhone

01:28:24   and its ports and its cables,

01:28:26   I would also just like to suggest the idea here officially

01:28:31   that I bet the Lightning port is gone within five years.

01:28:34   And because now, we're gonna have wireless charging.

01:28:38   and we have it now, it's not as fast as everything else yet,

01:28:42   it's going to get faster, and it's going to get fast enough

01:28:45   that I would bet that the newest iPhone

01:28:49   that comes out in five years, whatever model that is,

01:28:52   does not have a Lightning port,

01:28:54   and has no replacement for the Lightning port,

01:28:56   it's just gone, you know,

01:28:58   'cause they're going to deem it unnecessary.

01:29:00   So I would say for people out there,

01:29:03   I would hesitate to invest heavily

01:29:07   in lightning-based hardware.

01:29:09   Cheap things like cables, that's fine,

01:29:12   but for instance, there are now super fancy

01:29:15   lightning headphones from brands like Audizay,

01:29:18   like high-end audiophile headphone brands.

01:29:21   For many reasons, I would never suggest

01:29:24   anybody waste money on those.

01:29:26   Number one, they sound terrible,

01:29:27   but numbers like two through seven,

01:29:30   you can't use them with anything else ever,

01:29:32   and also lightning ports are, I would say,

01:29:36   not long for this world. Now that we have Bluetooth everything and now that we have

01:29:40   wireless charging, I would not depend on Lightning being around for a long time. Five years might

01:29:46   even be comically conservative. I would think that there's a good chance it's gone in three

01:29:51   years.

01:29:52   I think it's going to take a little bit longer than you think. I mean, obviously they have

01:29:55   to march towards the sort of platonic idea of just like a screen, this little skinny

01:29:59   magic thing, you know, right? Or, you know, it becomes a little tiny nodule and everything

01:30:05   is all in classes in VR right so on an infinite time scale yes lightning port is going away

01:30:10   I just don't know what the timing is like because getting rid of ports is all well and

01:30:16   good until it's the last one and then it's a little bit harder to get rid of I think

01:30:19   usage you've got everything covered but I heard just thinking like oh they get rid of

01:30:24   the lightning port but of course there's a USB C port for diagnostics in the back like

01:30:28   in the back like on the mouse where you stab it in there right sometimes there's no substitute

01:30:33   for making electrical contact for extraordinary situations and I'm wondering what their solutions

01:30:39   that would be.

01:30:40   Maybe just like two regions on the back that essentially act as contacts for doing diagnostic

01:30:45   things and really what I'm trying to get at is the light is the lighting port the last

01:30:49   port that'll ever be on there or does lighting port get replaced with some other port which

01:30:53   eventually goes away.

01:30:54   But yeah in our lifetime there will be no wire that you plug into the phone thing because

01:31:00   We're almost there now where that doesn't have to be.

01:31:02   And it's just a question of waiting for the whole world to catch up with it.

01:31:05   I would say, not just in our lifetime, I would say probably within my 4K Apple TV's lifetime.

01:31:10   I mean, five years was my prediction for the notch going away, although on that topic about

01:31:16   the notch and more like predictions on timelines, as I said at the end of the thing, five years

01:31:21   is when I think they could get rid of it.

01:31:23   But if it becomes a powerful branding thing, as we discussed, like why would they do the

01:31:27   notch and why does the icon of it show the notch and like how is this one differentiated

01:31:31   or whatever, it could last longer.

01:31:33   Not forever, because even the things that distinguish, like you know the click wheel

01:31:37   distinguished the iPod and that silhouette with the click wheel was really important,

01:31:41   but when it was time for that to go away, it did.

01:31:43   Right?

01:31:44   They didn't say, "But that's how we brand the iPods!"

01:31:45   Like they had no problem making an iPod touch without a click wheel because they realized

01:31:48   the future is not this little screen in a wheel, the future is all screen.

01:31:52   Right?

01:31:53   So they may hold on to the notch longer for branding reasons.

01:31:56   There's no such reason to hold on to the lightning cable, and technically speaking, they're

01:32:01   way closer to being able to get rid of it because all the pieces are pretty much already

01:32:05   there.

01:32:06   It's just a question of conservatism, like when do they think they can get rid of it.

01:32:09   I think they pushed a little bit on the headphone, which is why they're still shipping an adapter.

01:32:15   Lightning — I don't know, your five-year thing seems reasonable to me.

01:32:19   Your three-year thing seems a little bit aggressive, but who knows?

01:32:21   Also, there's an interesting question in the chat room from Yonatron saying, "Do you

01:32:25   "Do you think after lightning has gone from the phone,

01:32:28   "will/should they switch to USB-C on the iPad?"

01:32:32   And that's an interesting question.

01:32:34   I feel like it depends a lot on like,

01:32:37   what are these ports actually used for

01:32:39   and what could they be used for?

01:32:41   On the iPad, it has had the ability to plug in

01:32:44   a limited set of USB peripherals since day one,

01:32:50   since the very first iPad, it had that camera connection kit

01:32:54   and there was one that has the little USB port on it,

01:32:58   and there still is, they updated it with lightning,

01:32:59   and there was a new one last year

01:33:01   that had power pass through finally, which is awesome.

01:33:04   So like, and that USB port over the years

01:33:06   has worked for not any USB device,

01:33:09   but you know, things like standard HID compliant keyboards,

01:33:13   that's probably one of the biggest uses for it.

01:33:15   Also network adapters would work over it,

01:33:17   so you could have like ethernet wired on.

01:33:19   It has always worked for sound devices,

01:33:21   which is very, very nice during sound production.

01:33:24   And I don't think there's a wireless equivalent

01:33:27   to things like a microphone interface.

01:33:30   Like I don't think that anybody makes

01:33:31   Bluetooth audio input devices.

01:33:34   At least they shouldn't, and I hope they don't,

01:33:36   but they probably do.

01:33:36   But nobody should do that.

01:33:39   So there are these kind of edge case things

01:33:41   that like having a port at all,

01:33:44   and even if it requires crazy adapters

01:33:48   specialized hardware to use it for these kind of purposes.

01:33:53   Having a port that can be adapted to these kind of

01:33:55   weird edge cases does allow these devices to be used

01:33:59   in some pretty creative ways in some pretty

01:34:01   interesting fields.

01:34:02   And that having no port at all, relying totally on wireless

01:34:06   would make some of those things harder.

01:34:08   However, I think those limits are more important

01:34:10   to keep open on the iPad than on the phone.

01:34:12   That's why I think the phone is probably gonna get rid

01:34:14   of lightning first and probably fairly soon, relatively speaking. The iPad, because of

01:34:21   those edge case uses, I think it would be more destructive to lose its only port in

01:34:26   that way, but it also doesn't really matter what that port is. We've argued for years

01:34:33   like why don't they add a couple USB ports to it, but so far the iPad has done seemingly

01:34:38   pretty well and totally fine, having its own proprietary port that could be adapted to

01:34:44   to do a couple things here and there,

01:34:46   but for the most part was not a standard port.

01:34:48   And I don't see that demand curve in that way

01:34:53   changing much over time.

01:34:55   It got this far with no standard ports

01:34:57   and it's gonna keep going with no standard ports.

01:34:59   But I do think it would be a shame

01:35:00   if it lost the one that it has.

01:35:03   - No, it needs more ports.

01:35:05   For the big, for the 24-inch iPad Pro,

01:35:08   that's when you start, you don't need the Lightning port.

01:35:11   You can get rid of the Lightning port,

01:35:12   but it should have five USB-C ports.

01:35:14   the big pro version for the one you know for the surface book type of is that what am i

01:35:18   getting the name right of the imackey i can't even keep track of the 27 inch screen like

01:35:23   i i still think that's lurking out there in the future of the ipad as it becomes more

01:35:28   and more capable and as they expand the line so if and when that day comes that's the time

01:35:33   when the ipad needs ports because it is essentially going to you know it's it's the it's taking

01:35:37   the mantle of the pc and the laptop surface studio is apparently the uh the the drafting

01:35:42   table thing or whatever.

01:35:44   It's ridiculous to have a 27-inch tablet-sized thing that you use only at your desk because

01:35:48   it's huge that has one port on one edge.

01:35:51   That's ridiculous, right?

01:35:52   So lightning go away, but whatever the equivalent of USB-C, a Thunderbolt or whatever should

01:35:56   be there for all the reasons that we hook things up to our PCs today, right?

01:36:01   They're not all going away quite as rapidly as we feel like we could ditch them on the

01:36:05   phone because so many things.

01:36:07   Apple itself has come up with so many of the solutions like with the AirPods, with wireless

01:36:12   charging, getting rid of syncing and backing up to your Mac. They're practically there,

01:36:17   but it's too early for them to do it, if only because charging would take too long, because

01:36:21   the Qi charging is very slow now, supposedly going to get a little bit faster, but it's

01:36:26   probably not going to catch wire for a while yet.

01:36:29   Well, that's also like, we don't have Apple's yet. We only have the existing ones that are

01:36:33   out there. Once Apple ships their version of the Qi charging mat, which I hope is soon.

01:36:40   I'm kind of sad that it isn't until next year.

01:36:42   But once they shipped that,

01:36:44   before the iPad came out,

01:36:48   USB charging was very, very slow.

01:36:51   And the iPad was one of the first devices,

01:36:53   if not the first device,

01:36:55   to use higher amperage USB charging standards.

01:36:59   I don't even know if it was a standard back then,

01:37:02   or if Apple just kind of hacked it on there.

01:37:04   But they needed more power,

01:37:06   so they made their custom power brick

01:37:07   that delivered these, you know, the more power of a USB

01:37:10   to the iPad that needed it.

01:37:12   Maybe this is a similar kind of thing,

01:37:13   where like all the existing things out there now

01:37:15   are these low power things, but you know,

01:37:18   Apple is doing their magic with extending the standards

01:37:21   and pressuring the standards bodies

01:37:22   and manufacturers of things.

01:37:23   So maybe the, you know, maybe next year's Qi charging mats

01:37:26   are gonna be pretty fast.

01:37:29   - Speaking of, can one of you explain to me

01:37:32   what is the equipment I need to do fast charging

01:37:36   with the iPhones 8 and iPhone 10.

01:37:40   And my understanding from looking at some of Gruber's

01:37:42   recent work is that it's actually not that fast,

01:37:46   but what are the components I need,

01:37:48   and can we get links for these for the show notes?

01:37:49   Because I'm not trying to be funny,

01:37:51   I genuinely am not clear on what stuff I need

01:37:54   in order to make this work.

01:37:55   - All right, so the official answer is

01:37:57   you should not be asking us unprepared on a podcast,

01:37:59   you should just search for some article

01:38:02   that Serenity Caldwell has probably written at iMore

01:38:04   that tells us all the actual information.

01:38:06   (laughing)

01:38:06   But off the top of my head,

01:38:09   you need basically a USB-C power brick.

01:38:13   So not an iPad brick, all of those, those do charge.

01:38:16   If you have any iPhone passed, I believe,

01:38:18   I believe they started with the 6 or the 6S,

01:38:20   anything then or newer will charge faster

01:38:24   from an iPad power brick,

01:38:25   or any other 2.4 amp USB power device.

01:38:29   So if you aren't using one of those yet,

01:38:32   please use those for everything.

01:38:33   your phones will charge noticeably faster.

01:38:35   But if you wanna go even faster than that,

01:38:37   but not too much faster than that,

01:38:39   you can now use, with the new iPhones,

01:38:41   you can now use a USB-C power delivery brick.

01:38:45   So either the bricks that came with all the new MacBooks

01:38:49   and MacBook Pros, including your little MacBook KC,

01:38:51   that should do it, I believe.

01:38:53   And then you need a USB-C to lightning cable.

01:38:56   I think there's only one type of USB-C to lightning cable,

01:39:00   I hope, from Apple.

01:39:02   Because there has been, previously the USB C to C cables,

01:39:06   there were actually multiple different Apple USB C to C

01:39:10   cables with different power delivery abilities.

01:39:14   And I assume that's all legacy and that has been solved

01:39:18   in current inventory that didn't have like

01:39:19   an Apple store, but that was a problem before.

01:39:22   But with C to Lightning, I think there's only ever been one.

01:39:26   So if you have Apples, at least, I'm not sure I would trust

01:39:29   a third party cable for this just yet,

01:39:30   just 'cause, you know, not that it would catch fire

01:39:32   or anything, but I would just be wary

01:39:34   of whether it would work at the maximum rate or not.

01:39:37   So I would say go get the Apple Lightning to USB-C cable

01:39:42   and plug it into your MacBook's power brick.

01:39:44   That's the answer.

01:39:45   - Cool, all right, thanks, 'cause I was very confused.

01:39:48   - You could also use the Anker,

01:39:52   you know your little like five port thing

01:39:54   that charges things that you told us all to buy

01:39:55   in that awesome blog post?

01:39:56   Well, I ended up, this past winter,

01:39:59   I bought the version of that that has a single USB-C

01:40:02   output port as well that can power up to, I think,

01:40:05   60 watts over it or something like that.

01:40:07   That's wonderful, by the way.

01:40:08   So, you know, if you're bringing a new MacBook

01:40:11   of any kind on a trip and you wanna just bring one charger,

01:40:14   that Anker thing that has one USB-C port

01:40:17   and like four USB ports is awesome

01:40:19   and can totally power all of the new laptops.

01:40:22   It doesn't fully power the 15 inch

01:40:24   if you're like super draining it

01:40:25   'cause it's, you know, 60 I think

01:40:27   versus 85 watts or 87 watts, whatever it is.

01:40:31   But it's good enough for almost everything.

01:40:34   But again, the gains here in speed,

01:40:37   like as some of the reviewers are noting,

01:40:38   the gains are not that fast.

01:40:40   Like it isn't that much faster

01:40:42   than just using an iPad power brick

01:40:44   or any other 2.4 amp source.

01:40:45   So I would say, you know,

01:40:47   if you already have this hardware, great,

01:40:49   but I'm not sure it's worth the total investment

01:40:52   between the bricks and the cables

01:40:54   if you're only buying these things

01:40:56   to do faster iPhone charging.

01:40:58   I think you might be disappointed

01:41:00   in how much faster it isn't.

01:41:01   (laughing)

01:41:04   - All right, well thank you,

01:41:05   I appreciate you clearing that up.

01:41:07   All right, AirPower, we spoke about that a little bit

01:41:10   just a minute ago.

01:41:12   One thing that bummed me out about AirPower,

01:41:14   which is the pad and technology that allows the one pad

01:41:19   to charge multiple Apple devices,

01:41:21   what about nightstand mode on the watch?

01:41:23   So if you leave the watch on a charger and you leave it such that the buttons are at

01:41:29   the top, then when you jostle the watch even littlest bit, it will show you the time, just

01:41:35   like a clock would on your nightstand.

01:41:38   And it'll let you pause and perhaps stop alarms by pressing the physical buttons, just like

01:41:42   a clock on your nightstand.

01:41:45   And I use this every night, and I love it.

01:41:47   And I mean, this is the first world problem, but I'm going to be kind of bummed if I can't

01:41:52   do that on this like air power charging mat and this occurred to me in part because I

01:41:58   have the dock that Studio Neat makes, I forget exactly what it's called, we'll put a link

01:42:04   in the show notes, but that is designed in many ways specifically for this and they actually

01:42:09   talked about this on an episode of their podcast called Thoroughly Considered and to be honest

01:42:14   I listened to it days ago and forgot exactly what they said but in some way they discussed

01:42:17   it and I forget what conclusion they came to. But this kind of bums me out. I mean,

01:42:21   I mean Marco, you don't believe in the Apple Watch.

01:42:23   John, you don't really either, so nevermind.

01:42:25   That's no point. - I actually, by the way,

01:42:26   I use it like every day, but I, yeah,

01:42:28   I just don't use it the same way you do.

01:42:30   - Fair enough.

01:42:31   But is that, but do you use it,

01:42:33   where do you charge it at night?

01:42:34   Do you charge it like at your desk,

01:42:35   or do you charge it on your nightstand?

01:42:37   - It's at my desk, so it's not on my nightstand.

01:42:39   But when I was wearing it full-time as like my main watch,

01:42:42   I was charging it on my desk.

01:42:44   But that predated nightstand mode.

01:42:45   But yeah, that makes sense.

01:42:47   I mean, I just did the lowest tech solution here possible,

01:42:50   which is I have a regular alarm clock thing

01:42:54   on my nightstand.

01:42:56   They still make those, apparently.

01:42:59   I just bought it last year.

01:43:00   You are able to buy regular alarm clocks.

01:43:03   But what most people do, I think,

01:43:04   is either use their watch that way

01:43:06   or just use their phone that way.

01:43:09   It is a valid question then,

01:43:10   if you're using a charging mat,

01:43:12   what about using your phone as a clock?

01:43:14   But I think the answer most people will have

01:43:16   is they'll just pick it up if they wanna check the time.

01:43:19   It isn't as nice as doing it your way, but it works.

01:43:24   - I've been thinking for years about

01:43:27   what I would like in a nightstand clock,

01:43:29   'cause I have iOS devices on my nightstand

01:43:31   as I think most of us do.

01:43:32   My phone charges there,

01:43:34   my iPad actually charges there as well.

01:43:36   But I don't wanna use them as,

01:43:40   I have actually a dedicated old style clock radio thing,

01:43:44   which I don't like.

01:43:45   It's ancient and huge and ridiculous,

01:43:48   But it still works and it has properties that Marco can relate to.

01:43:52   When I turn my head in that direction I can see the time because it glows with just the

01:43:56   right amount of glowiness, not blinding super bright but not super dim.

01:44:01   The letters are big so with my blind nighttime eyes without my glasses on I can see them.

01:44:06   And every time I look at it it's there.

01:44:08   I don't need to grope over on my nightstand knocking over, you know, stuff that's over

01:44:12   there.

01:44:13   Like I don't need to do anything.

01:44:14   I don't need to touch anything.

01:44:15   I don't need to jostle anything.

01:44:16   look at it and it tells me the time and it also it's what I use for my alarm.

01:44:20   Why don't I want to use my watch or my phone or my iPad or any of the other umpteen things?

01:44:24   Why don't I want to use them?

01:44:26   Because they're not 100% guaranteed to be on my nightstand.

01:44:29   What if I leave my phone downstairs?

01:44:31   Whatever I leave my iPad downstairs.

01:44:32   These devices are all over my house.

01:44:33   I don't want to have to remember.

01:44:35   I never have to remember.

01:44:36   Did you remember to put your the thing that's going to wake you up in the morning on your

01:44:40   nightstand?

01:44:41   It's always there.

01:44:42   The alarm is always on.

01:44:43   It goes on every time in the morning and when I grow up in the morning to turn off the alarm

01:44:46   I like big chunky physical buttons that I can find again in my groggy state and either snooze or turn off the alarm

01:44:52   It's not ideal like the buttons are a little bit weird

01:44:55   But you know I've had this this clock radio for like 20 something years now or whatever

01:45:00   I would like I was thinking like a nice dedicated clock radio, and I was like maybe Apple should make a nice day

01:45:05   They're never gonna do that right they want us to use our our phone or our watch

01:45:09   But I just I just want I guess it's kind of like the bike thing

01:45:11   I just said just want a good one and I've looked at a lot of them

01:45:14   There's all sorts of fancy ones that are interesting and sometimes they're really expensive and sometimes they're double the Bluetooth speakers

01:45:19   we're just kind of neat but whatever but

01:45:21   and I also thought about if I got a fancy one, I'd want to be able to like play a

01:45:26   Recording of my choosing and I would just record my old clock radios little beep beep sound

01:45:31   right because the sound you wake up to can be very

01:45:33   Very personal like some sounds people find very jarring and frightening to wake up to and others

01:45:39   You know comforting and some sounds just don't like them up at all. So

01:45:42   Maybe I should just keep this one forever because it's obviously never gonna break but it does take up a lot of space in my

01:45:47   Nightstand, I mean all this is to say that all of Apple's efforts with nightstand mode and with this charging that and everything

01:45:53   seemed to me

01:45:55   To all be suboptimal solutions for the role that the clock radio plays maybe great solutions for what we're all doing with our devices

01:46:02   now which is charging the line your nightstand when you go to bed, but I am still looking for a solution to

01:46:09   Waking me up in the morning reliably without me having to remember not to leave my phone downstairs. All right, I have a solution for you

01:46:16   It doesn't it doesn't have an alarm

01:46:18   Butler it can't play they can't play the song of your choosing

01:46:27   However, it will always be charged because it's powered by air temperature changes

01:46:32   It is not designed by Apple, but it is designed by Mark Knudsen who works for Apple

01:46:37   - Oh, right until you got the Mark Newsome part,

01:46:39   I said that sounds like my wife,

01:46:40   'cause she's powered by air temperature changes.

01:46:41   It's too hot in here, wake up!

01:46:43   (laughing)

01:46:44   - It only costs $26,800, the JLC Atmos clock.

01:46:49   (laughing)

01:46:50   It is powered by atmospheric air temperature changes.

01:46:54   - I would knock that off of my nightstand

01:46:55   and it would shatter to the ground,

01:46:56   wasting $26,000 very quickly.

01:46:58   - They're surprisingly heavy.

01:47:00   I do not own one of these, but I have seen them in stores.

01:47:05   - Yeah.

01:47:06   They are quite remarkable to look at.

01:47:07   And some of the lower end models can be had

01:47:09   for only about $10,000.

01:47:10   (laughs)

01:47:12   - So it used to be that my kids woke me up

01:47:13   and now they're older.

01:47:14   Now, realistically speaking, my dog wakes me up

01:47:17   at 5.30 in the morning.

01:47:18   And the problem with the dog waking me up

01:47:19   is if I'm not the one who goes and lets her out,

01:47:23   I can fall back asleep and that's a dangerous situation

01:47:25   to be in.

01:47:26   So I still do need my alarm.

01:47:27   Most of the time, I am the one who takes the dog out

01:47:30   and so then I do wake up.

01:47:31   But I figure eventually the dog will,

01:47:33   will this ever happen?

01:47:34   Will the seventh-month-old dog stop whining to be let out at 5.30 to 6.30 in the morning?

01:47:40   I don't know.

01:47:41   Hope springs eternal.

01:47:42   But anyway, I still think the role of the thing that wakes you up in the morning is

01:47:47   not a solved problem as far as I'm concerned, and iOS devices, including the watch, don't

01:47:51   solve that for me because I don't wear the watch when I sleep.

01:47:55   Or at all.

01:47:59   One more thing on AirPower about Apple's naming.

01:48:01   It's kind of a weird name to me, because "airpower" means a thing in a military context, and I

01:48:06   don't think -- what other contexts are there for "airpower"?

01:48:08   There is the -- I'm just making this phrase that has never been seen before, combining

01:48:12   the word "air" with the word "power," and isn't that great?

01:48:14   But unfortunately it is a phrase.

01:48:16   "Airpower" is a thing, and it's weird to see an even vaguely military term on an Apple

01:48:22   product.

01:48:23   That's interesting.

01:48:24   I wonder if they even thought about that.

01:48:26   might not have occurred to them because they're so non-military thinking usually.

01:48:31   They thought of it and they just said, "No one knows that term, only most people will

01:48:35   see it and read it as they intend," which is air, which is like the MacBook Air, and

01:48:39   then power. I don't think they—they probably said, "There are military connotations,

01:48:43   but most people won't think of it that way, so it's fine," and they went with it.

01:48:46   It just struck me as odd when they said it.

01:48:48   It is kind of funny also that the power does not go through the air, really.

01:48:53   What does it go through?

01:48:55   I mean technically there's probably a few air molecules between your phone and the mat,

01:48:58   but like...

01:48:59   More than a few.

01:49:00   Yeah, but like really, you know, it's not going through a lot of air.

01:49:05   It's not going through a wire now, is it?

01:49:07   Oh, let's not get into that.

01:49:09   Please don't leave us about that.

01:49:12   You see Google just bought part of HTC's Pixel division or something?

01:49:17   Yeah, I've been hearing those rumors and as someone tweeted about it, tell me how this

01:49:22   is going to end up differently than it did with Motorola.

01:49:24   I guess HTC doesn't have as many patents, and they're not paying $12 billion for it.

01:49:29   And how well we're talking for Microsoft with Nokia also, I mean, I think this is a…

01:49:34   I'd be surprised if this mattered at all for anything ever.

01:49:39   Google just wants someone to make phones for them.

01:49:42   Maybe Apple will do it.

01:49:44   Yeah, right.

01:49:45   That'll fix it.

01:49:46   All right, apparently we have more to say about Animoji.

01:49:49   Didn't we already talk about this?

01:49:51   We should wait until you-- you can't use it with iOS 11 unless you have the 10?

01:49:58   Or does it work on the 8?

01:49:59   No, I don't think so, because it uses the Fancy Pants facial recognition stuff.

01:50:04   I think it's only on the 10.

01:50:05   We should save it until one of us has it, I guess.

01:50:09   Yeah, so next March.

01:50:11   Did you see, by the way, that apparently they're doubling down on the supply constraints?

01:50:15   Like MacRumors posted something earlier about how the supply constraint is really, really

01:50:20   and they haven't even started full-on manufacturing.

01:50:23   - We're waiting a while for our 10s.

01:50:25   - Yeah, I expect it to be incredibly difficult

01:50:28   for anybody to actually buy these phones,

01:50:31   at least at list price, or anywhere near list price,

01:50:35   until after December.

01:50:37   And I don't know, I haven't heard anything more

01:50:39   than what these rumors had to publish,

01:50:41   but just knowing how Apple has done these launches,

01:50:44   launches of recent products in the past,

01:50:47   They frequently have trouble meeting demand recently,

01:50:51   especially when it comes to very highly demanded iPhones.

01:50:55   And this is probably going to be a whole other level

01:50:59   of the disconnect between supply and demand for this one.

01:51:03   And so this is just gonna be a mess, I think.

01:51:07   I would be shocked if you could walk into a store

01:51:10   and just buy one without having reserved it or anything

01:51:13   before January and maybe even later than that.

01:51:17   I'm gonna be a sad panda when this phone doesn't come in for a long time.

01:51:22   Oh man.

01:51:23   The struggle is real you guys.

01:51:25   Alright.

01:51:26   You guys go to the store and play with them which will be all I'm doing because I'm not

01:51:31   ordering one.

01:51:32   Of course.

01:51:33   Before we wrap this up, we should be done here because we've gone a little bit long.

01:51:36   Real time follow up on Apple TV, someone has sent me a screenshot of the screen where you

01:51:42   can pick the screen resolutions and so it does show a bunch of 24Hz options.

01:51:49   It shows 25Hz, SDR, 24Hz, HDR.

01:51:53   I suppose it depends on what TV you're hooked up to and what things it supports.

01:51:56   But these look like you choosing the output format period for the whole thing.

01:52:01   So if you do pick 24Hz, you're picking it for the whole UI.

01:52:05   And I understand Apple's desire not to switch modes and that being flaky and stuff like that.

01:52:10   that but this isn't a great solution either because this, I guess most people will never

01:52:14   go into the screen, but if you want to do the right thing you will have to know the frame rate

01:52:18   of the media you want to see, switch your Apple TV for a refresh rate to match the frame rate of the

01:52:24   media you want to play, then go play the media and then remember that you did that so the next time

01:52:28   you go watch a you know a 30 fps tv show or whatever that you keep you know that you change

01:52:33   to 60 hertz or I don't know. I find it confusing and I really wish the media player could just

01:52:41   do the thing that other things attached to your television do and tell it, "Hey, I'm

01:52:45   about to start playing 24 frames per second content. Please switch to a refresh rate that

01:52:49   is some multiple of 24 that I have detected using the magic of HDMI." So I'll try all

01:52:55   this out when I get my Apple TV. I didn't get my order in very quickly, so I think mine's

01:52:59   not going to be here for a week or two, but I'll let you know.

01:53:01   All right, thanks to our three sponsors this week Betterment fracture and aftershocks and we will see you next week

01:53:07   Now the show is over they didn't even mean to begin because it was accidental

01:53:17   It was accidental

01:53:20   John did any research Marco and Casey wouldn't let him because it was accidental

01:53:27   Was accidental

01:53:31   And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM And if you're into Twitter, you can follow

01:53:38   them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S So that's Kasey Liss M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:53:48   Auntie Marco Armin S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A, Syracuse

01:53:58   ♪ It's accidental ♪

01:53:59   ♪ It's accidental ♪

01:54:01   ♪ They didn't mean to ♪

01:54:03   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:54:05   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:54:06   ♪ Tech podcast ♪

01:54:08   ♪ So long ♪

01:54:11   - I have a bit of real time follow up as well.

01:54:13   During the show, not only have I installed

01:54:15   the version of Safari that Jon told me I could install,

01:54:18   and so now I guess I'm not seeing auto play video anymore,

01:54:20   and now I have 60% of the features of High Sierra

01:54:23   without breaking the window manager.

01:54:25   But also, there is indeed a Twitter direct message

01:54:28   only app called TWIM, T-W-I-M.

01:54:31   I installed it and it does seem to work in the sense

01:54:34   that I can get direct messages there.

01:54:36   I've tested it during the show with Casey, thank you Casey.

01:54:38   The only thing is it was not able to notify me of them

01:54:41   even though I enabled them.

01:54:42   So I'm guessing it just has to rely on background refresh

01:54:45   and not just like a push service.

01:54:47   And if so, that's kind of unfortunate in the sense

01:54:49   that you might not get the messages for a while,

01:54:52   but honestly I don't really care that much

01:54:55   most of the time about that.

01:54:56   if I'm on my phone and not browsing Twitter.

01:54:59   So that seems all right to me.

01:55:00   So yeah, thanks for everybody who recommended Twim.

01:55:03   - That's cool.

01:55:05   - There is an element here about Waze in our notes.

01:55:09   Did you want me to expand on my use of Waze

01:55:11   and how much I love it?

01:55:12   - No, save it.

01:55:13   That's all, these are all topic worthy topics.

01:55:16   - It's not, it really isn't.

01:55:17   - It totally is.

01:55:19   - Oh my God.

01:55:19   - We should go up to the after show section

01:55:22   and ask Casey about how driving an Acura TRX was.

01:55:26   or he was in an Acura TLX.

01:55:28   - Yeah, so.

01:55:29   - Wait, what is this one?

01:55:30   Is this like the NSUV?

01:55:32   Is this a?

01:55:33   - No, it's an Accord, but gussied up a bit.

01:55:35   And--

01:55:36   - No, it's not even on the Accord platform anymore.

01:55:38   - Like a Deluxe TL?

01:55:39   - The TSX used to be on the European Accord platform.

01:55:42   I don't know what platform the TLX on is or not,

01:55:44   but I think it's not the Accord platform.

01:55:45   - Whatever, it's the sedan that's, to John's point,

01:55:50   it's probably a little bigger than an Accord,

01:55:51   and it's certainly fancier.

01:55:52   - It's not bigger than an Accord.

01:55:54   - Oh my God, John.

01:55:55   OK, how would you describe the TLX?

01:55:57   The website describes it as a 2018 restyled performance

01:55:59   sedan.

01:56:00   I don't know about performance sedan, but whatever.

01:56:02   It doesn't matter.

01:56:03   That's what they call it.

01:56:04   So a coworker of mine has been test driving pretty much

01:56:08   every car under the sun trying to figure out

01:56:09   what he wants to buy.

01:56:11   And he's in that stage where he really

01:56:13   wants to buy something frivolous and stupid,

01:56:15   but he just turned 40 and is trying to convince himself

01:56:18   that he shouldn't spend frivolous and stupid money,

01:56:20   and also he should probably be more responsible.

01:56:24   So one of the cars that he test drove that I sat in and went for literally like a 300-yard

01:56:28   trip in was an Acura TLX.

01:56:32   And so I would describe the Acura TLX as something Accord-ish and fancier.

01:56:38   And the thing that's interesting about the Acura TLX is that it has two screens in it.

01:56:42   There's a screen that's kind of far away on the dashboard that has navigation on it.

01:56:50   And then there's a different screen in the center, not the center console, but like where

01:56:54   the radio is, that, um, that, and one of which has CarPlay and one of which doesn't.

01:57:01   And if I recall correctly, the CarPlay one is the one that's, God, I'm gonna get this

01:57:04   wrong and I'm gonna hate myself, but I think it was the one that was up high that does

01:57:08   not offer a touchscreen.

01:57:10   It has instead an iDrive-like cursor setup or like a left-right, you know, up-down with

01:57:16   enter sort of setup.

01:57:18   And then the other screen that's down low is a touchscreen, and it was all really, really,

01:57:25   really weird.

01:57:27   And I don't think I liked it.

01:57:28   But the most startling thing of all for me was even after, on a previous podcast, which

01:57:33   was called "Neutral," which none of you have ever heard of, I discussed that I thought

01:57:39   the idea of a touchscreen for car infotainment was terrible.

01:57:44   And I still mostly agree with that, in no small part because as you're driving down

01:57:49   the road trying to mash your finger into the touchscreen, you go over the smallest bump

01:57:54   and that gets amplified over the distance of your arm and makes it impossible to stab

01:57:58   what you want to hit on the screen.

01:58:00   But seeing the up-down-left-right setup in the Acura, that was much, much, much worse.

01:58:07   and I wanna see sometime if the BMW setup for a car play

01:58:12   allows you to use the iDrive spinner,

01:58:16   and I wanna see if that's any good.

01:58:17   Or actually, Marco, have you ever tried that in Tiff's car?

01:58:19   - Yeah, I have, and it's, well, I mean,

01:58:21   so the way it's integrated into BMWs,

01:58:23   and this is, so she has, I believe,

01:58:25   what their newest or close enough version is,

01:58:27   so it's wireless, it works over Bluetooth,

01:58:29   which is awesome, but the way BMW integrated it,

01:58:32   and I guess, and a lot of this I feel like is unavoidable,

01:58:35   they have their own whole system,

01:58:38   their whole iDrive system of course.

01:58:40   So they have their own navigation,

01:58:42   their own media control and everything else.

01:58:44   And they try to integrate CarPlay,

01:58:46   and the way it works is basically like,

01:58:48   CarPlay is just one of the different layers

01:58:51   or like app sections in iDrive,

01:58:55   that itself has like, you know,

01:58:57   CarPlay's own like sub-apps and stuff within it.

01:59:00   So you can have like, you know, view CarPlay mode,

01:59:02   and when you have a CarPlay-connected phone,

01:59:03   it's kind of as always available,

01:59:05   but it's kinda hard to navigate to and find.

01:59:08   Honestly, I find it very clunky.

01:59:11   And maybe it's just because I don't usually drive Tiff's car

01:59:14   so I haven't really had a lot of time to get used to it.

01:59:18   But I honestly really don't like using CarPlay

01:59:22   in a car that has its own system

01:59:24   that it's also trying to mix in or that it defaults to.

01:59:29   I find the whole thing honestly very confusing.

01:59:31   I will say the idea of navigating it via the wheel and stuff

01:59:36   as opposed to a touchscreen,

01:59:37   that part I haven't found to be

01:59:39   too egregiously confusing or bad.

01:59:41   That part seems to be fine.

01:59:43   You know, with a car, you have very tricky ergonomics

01:59:47   where you want, ideally you want the screens

01:59:50   that the driver has to see to be pretty high up

01:59:54   and to be set pretty deeply into the windshield area

01:59:59   just so you don't have to keep focusing your eyes

02:00:01   that close to and from, close and far away,

02:00:04   and you don't have to look down too far.

02:00:06   So if a screen is ideally positioned

02:00:08   for the driver to see it frequently or safely

02:00:11   or everything else, it's probably gonna be

02:00:13   a little hard to reach for it to be a touch screen.

02:00:16   So I see why they do this.

02:00:19   It makes sense to have a screen that is not a touch screen

02:00:22   that is far away for reaching but nice for looking.

02:00:27   and then to have some kind of wheel or stick or something

02:00:31   that you can control to move on screen.

02:00:32   So I'm totally sold on not being a touchscreen.

02:00:36   I am not however totally sold on CarPlay

02:00:39   as an additional layer or mode

02:00:42   of an already complex entertainment system

02:00:45   and navigation system.

02:00:45   That I think is very confusing and doesn't work for me.

02:00:49   - Yeah, I have mixed feelings about this.

02:00:51   So Aaron's XC90, it has CarPlay, it is not wireless,

02:00:56   which is a bummer, and I definitely have mixed feelings about it.

02:01:02   And I think the reason that I was so persnickety about her getting a car that had CarPlay is

02:01:07   because I want to future-proof it.

02:01:09   Because if you look at the interface on my BMW, which was built in 2010 as a 2011 model

02:01:14   year, you know, five, what is it, actually six, seven years on now, it looks pretty dated.

02:01:20   by comparison, it stands to reason, maybe, that CarPlay will advance with time.

02:01:27   And sure, yes, some auto manufacturers let you upgrade your firmware in your car or whatever.

02:01:32   Sometimes you can do it yourself, other times you can go to service and have it done.

02:01:35   But more often than not, it's a whole new set of hardware to get you to the next version

02:01:41   of, say, iDrive.

02:01:43   Like I cannot get any of the latest and greatest iDrive because I would need brand new hardware.

02:01:47   But with CarPlay, it's just a screen, that's all it is.

02:01:51   And as long as the screen hardware doesn't need to change in future versions of CarPlay,

02:01:56   it will always be the best CarPlay that will ever be.

02:02:00   And this is also particularly important with maps, because although generally speaking

02:02:03   I can use the navigation in my car pretty well, and it typically knows where I'm going

02:02:09   when I plug in an address, there are certainly newer neighborhoods or newer sections of town

02:02:13   where it has no clue where I'm going because the maps are seven years old and that's

02:02:17   frustrating and so I stand by carplay if

02:02:22   Nothing else is an insurance policy against future

02:02:26   What's the word I'm looking for?

02:02:29   But when things just get old and busted in the future and that's why I wanted it in Erin's car so bad

02:02:34   And that's why I why I insisted on it

02:02:37   I'll also say that I happen to take her car out tonight to do a couple errands and

02:02:41   And it's pretty sweet to be able to just plug in my phone and have it kind of take over,

02:02:45   in the case of the Volvo, half the screen, because I don't need to have my phone paired

02:02:51   with her car.

02:02:52   And it doesn't need to fight with her phone when we're both in the car for who is going

02:02:58   to be the more important phone.

02:03:00   But yet, when I plug it in via the cable, it becomes the only phone that matters, which

02:03:05   is cool too.

02:03:06   The thing that sucks about all this, though, and now I'm kind of jumping ahead into next

02:03:11   week's show, is Apple doesn't, from what I can tell, Apple doesn't allow any sort of

02:03:18   navigation system on CarPlay except Apple Maps.

02:03:21   And I actually don't mind Apple Maps.

02:03:23   I feel kind of the same way about Apple Maps as I do about the Apple TV remote.

02:03:27   It's fine.

02:03:29   But that being said, I would prefer, given the choice, to have, I don't know, maybe Waze

02:03:35   on CarPlay, that would be neat.

02:03:37   And that's not allowed.

02:03:38   And it's because Apple is obnoxious

02:03:40   like every other corporation is and won't allow it.

02:03:42   And that's super duper frustrating.

02:03:46   - Real time follow up.

02:03:47   Now that I look at this thing,

02:03:48   the TLX is a replacement for the TSX and the TL.

02:03:52   The TSX was small,

02:03:53   originally based on the European Accord platform

02:03:55   and the TL was their bigger thing.

02:03:58   This looked like it's like the size of the TL.

02:04:00   So I think it actually might be the Accord platform.

02:04:01   And that dual screen, - Oh, look at that.

02:04:03   that dual screen thing, that's a Honda thing, it's been in Accords for many generations

02:04:07   now, it's, I don't know how many Accurates it's been in, I don't know why they decided

02:04:11   to do it.

02:04:12   My car essentially has it except that when I bought it I didn't even have the choice

02:04:16   to get the second screen so I've got the one big screen that's not a touchscreen buried

02:04:20   in the dash and where the second screen would be I have comically oversized physical buttons

02:04:24   to cover the giant square where the screen was supposed to be which is very silly.

02:04:30   Life's Accord doesn't have it either.

02:04:32   That's where the navigation would go

02:04:33   if we had navigation in our car.

02:04:36   But this is the new, what you're looking at,

02:04:38   and if you're looking at the 2018,

02:04:40   this is the new improved Honda infotainment system,

02:04:43   believe it or not.

02:04:45   I have the even crappier one,

02:04:47   but in some respects it is simpler

02:04:49   because it doesn't do all that fancy car play

02:04:51   or Android stuff.

02:04:51   It's just a terrible, classic Honda interface.

02:04:55   - To that end, the screen up top,

02:04:57   which shows car play in the picture

02:04:59   we'll put in the show notes. That screen, the navigation system, I shouldn't say it's the

02:05:04   screen, I'm implying it's the hardware, it's not the hardware. The navigation system though that

02:05:09   Honda has caked into this 2018 TLX looks like it's the navigation system from my 2010, well really

02:05:15   model year 2011 BMW. Like it is the, you know, approximately a 200 by 200 pixel screen from the

02:05:21   looks of it. Now the reality is it's not, it's better than that because CarPlay requires something

02:05:25   better than that. But it is just so, it looks so antiquated and terrible. Oh my goodness,

02:05:32   it looks terrible. And so if I had a TLX, there is zero chance I would ever look at that navigation

02:05:38   because I would always, always, always be looking at carplay. Now in TIFF's car, where the navigation

02:05:42   looks great and is performant and responsive and whatnot, I would probably do the exact same thing

02:05:48   it sounds like Marco and TIFF do, which is generally speaking, I would just use the onboard

02:05:52   stuff and in a pinch if there was some particular reason to use CarPlay then sure I'll use CarPlay.

02:05:57   I mean now we just use Waze but yeah we can't talk about that apparently until next week.

02:06:02   That's right.

02:06:03   You know what makes me mad about the TLX? It isn't the dual screens.

02:06:06   It isn't the infotainment system. It's that this car is offered with a DCT. That's awesome.

02:06:14   It's not awesome because this car is not a sporty sedan.

02:06:22   It's trying to be, the TSX was supposed to be sporty

02:06:24   and the TL was supposed to be luxurious

02:06:25   and they combined them to make one bland car.

02:06:28   - But this is like, it's a fairly excessively priced car

02:06:33   relative to other sports cars.

02:06:35   And it has a DCT option and an all wheel drive option

02:06:40   and a V6 almost 300 horsepower option.

02:06:43   However, you can only get the DCT

02:06:48   on the base model 206 horsepower engine.

02:06:51   - Ugh. - And not with all-wheel drive.

02:06:53   - Honda is the worst.

02:06:55   They always do this with a good transmission.

02:06:57   Hey, John, how many cylinders does your car have?

02:06:59   Four?

02:07:00   Oh, why?

02:07:01   Well, because you wanted a stick

02:07:01   and you can't get it with a six cylinder.

02:07:03   - I probably wouldn't have gotten the V6, though.

02:07:05   - Don't ruin my moment.

02:07:06   You're ruining my rant, John.

02:07:07   - Also, I'm very curious.

02:07:08   Can you explain to me, John, it says,

02:07:10   the industry's first eight-speed DCT with torque converter.

02:07:14   What does that mean?

02:07:15   How is that, that can't be?

02:07:17   - I don't know what that means.

02:07:19   How can you have a DCT and a torque converter?

02:07:21   - Maybe it's like a dual transmission thing

02:07:24   where it's got like an automatic transmission

02:07:25   in front of it.

02:07:26   It has, I don't understand.

02:07:28   I don't understand at all.

02:07:29   Here's the one line summary

02:07:32   from a recent Car and Driver review of the last year's model

02:07:35   which I think it was just the cosmetic refresh.

02:07:37   Automotive wallpaper from the same company

02:07:39   that sells the NSX supercar.

02:07:41   So glowing review, huh?

02:07:44   Yeah.

02:07:45   Is that how can that same company

02:07:46   that makes that make this thing?

02:07:47   Automotive wallpaper is not what you wanna hear.

02:07:50   - So I also have an issue with the NSX

02:07:53   while we're on this topic.

02:07:54   - The new one or the old one?

02:07:55   - The new one.

02:07:56   I have seen somebody in my town,

02:08:00   somebody occasionally parks one in town,

02:08:02   so I see it occasionally now.

02:08:04   It just is incredibly forgettable looking.

02:08:08   Like the old NSX is incredibly distinctive.

02:08:11   And I saw one of those like the same day,

02:08:13   which is kind of amusing, 'cause I almost never see those.

02:08:17   But like the old NSX, you know it from a mile away,

02:08:20   and it looks incredibly distinctive,

02:08:22   and it looks cool, even still today,

02:08:24   it still looks cool, which is pretty impressive

02:08:26   for a car of that era.

02:08:28   The new one just looks like random expensive car.

02:08:32   Like it doesn't look that distinctive anymore.

02:08:35   Like it doesn't look bad, and it looks like a sports car,

02:08:38   but it just looks like every other sports car now.

02:08:41   And I feel like that's kind of a shame

02:08:43   from the same company that the old one

02:08:44   was just so distinctive.

02:08:46   it was compromised by the, I mean it had a difficult life if you look at the development

02:08:50   history of this NSX at various times that many different configurations were planned to be the

02:08:55   new NSX and so it didn't have a good development and I think it shows in the finished product,

02:09:01   which is not bad but it is a kind of a mishmash of various compromises and going hybrid trying to be

02:09:08   a hybrid supercar along with the big boys right but having that be a controversial decision and

02:09:14   and the way they executed it, it's so much better

02:09:17   when you have a clear vision from the beginning

02:09:19   and you develop based on it rather than changing your mind

02:09:22   three times during the development

02:09:23   and scrapping one plan and going with another

02:09:25   and then tweaking and modifying it.

02:09:27   And the styling suffers from the same thing.

02:09:29   It's like they had to put a skin over this car they'd made.

02:09:31   And it just seems too high to me.

02:09:34   And they tried to put family Honda resemblance

02:09:38   in the front and rear treatments that don't quite work out.

02:09:41   I haven't seen one in person, so I'll reserve judgment.

02:09:43   these cars look better in person, but every time I've seen one, you know, driving around

02:09:46   on, you know, video reviews and stuff, it looks alright, and it gets so-so reviews,

02:09:53   but it, you know, no one is wowed by it like they were by the old one, and the old one

02:09:57   definitely -- I mean, the complaint about the old one was that it looked like a Japanese

02:10:00   Ferrari, and that's kind of what they were going for, but, like, Japanese Ferrari is

02:10:05   a good look. This just looks like, I don't know, it looks like a slightly modified Acura

02:10:12   - I grew up, Audi R8.

02:10:15   - Yeah, very similar to the R8.

02:10:17   I mean, I feel like if you wanna buy

02:10:19   like a really cool sports car,

02:10:21   I'd get the old one before I'd get the new one.

02:10:24   - Yeah, they have some problems too.

02:10:25   And also you see one of those in real life

02:10:26   and realize, wow, those tires are tiny.

02:10:28   Looks like a little like, it looks like a skateboard.

02:10:31   It was like 15 inch tires or something on it.

02:10:33   It's just ridiculous.

02:10:34   - Well, the car isn't very big on the old one,

02:10:36   but it's like 25 feet long though.

02:10:39   Like it's a very long car.

02:10:41   You're just fooled by the proportion of the tires.

02:10:45   Everything about it is small.

02:10:48   The beautiful thing about the NSX is that they did have a clear vision.

02:10:51   And I think it's a great vision that it was a competitive advantage that they had over

02:10:55   the things that they were imitating, like Ferrari and everything.

02:10:58   Their inspiration for the overall shape of the car was the F-16 cockpit, where the cockpit

02:11:02   is a bubble up above the level of all the rest of the stuff in the plane, so that when

02:11:06   you're a pilot, you look around and you can see things on all sides of you.

02:11:09   you're not like looking over the big lump, you know, it's not the cockpit is not sort

02:11:13   of like the back of the spine of the plane goes long and then slopes downward and that's

02:11:18   the cockpit and when you look backward you would just see like nothing like you're driving

02:11:21   like a panel truck or something.

02:11:23   They said no, the plane is going to be down here and then the cockpit will be coming up

02:11:27   off the top of it so you have a panoramic view and that's what they did with the car.

02:11:30   The car is down there in the NSX and the canopy, the sort of the roof line, that's where you

02:11:35   are and you can look around in all directions.

02:11:38   So that's skinny pillars because of black scratch standards, right?

02:11:41   And amazing visibility compared to any other mid-engine car like a Ferrari where you have

02:11:45   like a tiny slit out the back because the giant engine is back there and sometimes they

02:11:48   even put like slits in there like in the older 80s models and stuff to make it so you have

02:11:53   terrible visibility.

02:11:54   Huge seat pillars, huge blind spots, and then you gotta put these giant side mirrors so

02:11:57   you can see anything and you feel kind of like you're trapped.

02:12:01   More people should be copying that because if you can't actually make yourself look and

02:12:06   perform like a Ferrari, one of the only advantages you have as a supercar, you know, an affordable

02:12:11   supercar or a supercar wannabe is you can be ergonomically better than the supercars.

02:12:17   And that's what the NSX did.

02:12:18   It looked cool, it looked interesting, and had amazing ergonomics, you know.

02:12:22   And the new one, it's also mid-engine and its ergonomics don't look that great.

02:12:26   It looks like it has pretty darn big seat pillars and the visibility out the back, while

02:12:29   better than a Ferrari, is nowhere near what it was in the original NSX.

02:12:33   They can be had for as little as 40 grand for a 100,000 mile option.

02:12:39   They're growing up now.

02:12:40   Since we had a neutral episode where we had to pick a car for 25K and I picked the NSX,

02:12:46   good luck finding a 25K NSX now that's in reasonable condition because they are creeping

02:12:50   up in price.

02:12:51   Did we do that?

02:12:52   Yeah.

02:12:53   Remember, if you have $25,000, what car should you get?

02:12:55   You two picked terrible cars and I picked the NSX because I'm a genius.

02:12:58   Oh my God.

02:12:59   What did we pick?

02:13:00   I remember us picking something terribly bad cars.

02:13:02   I was like, "I would like a Toyota Camry, something terrible."

02:13:06   I'm like, "No, you get an Acura NSX."

02:13:08   I probably said like a used 3 Series or something.

02:13:10   Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know.

02:13:11   I remember both of us picking truly terrible choices,

02:13:14   and it took a little convincing for me to decide that,

02:13:17   but I agree that it was not good.

02:13:19   You can get a DeLorean for about that much.

02:13:21   That is a crap deal.

02:13:22   That is a terrible, terrible choice.

02:13:25   I didn't say it was my choice.

02:13:27   I'm just saying you can't get one.

02:13:28   A DeLorean is furniture. It's not a car.

02:13:31   or it's like a lawn ornament.

02:13:33   It just looks good sitting there,

02:13:34   but god, I would never wanna drive one.

02:13:36   Although they're making the new ones now

02:13:38   that I would presume are a little bit better.

02:13:40   Do any of you know about this?

02:13:41   They're like--

02:13:42   - Have they actually made them yet

02:13:43   or are they just talking about it?

02:13:45   - New DeLorean production update, here we go.

02:13:48   In December 2015, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,

02:13:51   yeah, I don't know, I'm too easy to read this,

02:13:53   but apparently it's happening, I guess.

02:13:56   - Is it the same, are they just making the same car again,

02:13:58   just with new parts?

02:14:00   - Yeah.

02:14:01   not any design updates or anything,

02:14:02   like just making the same thing again.

02:14:03   - Correct.

02:14:05   I don't even think they're doing the Singer treatment

02:14:08   where Singer will take an old, it is Singer, right?

02:14:11   That takes an old Porsche and guts the interior,

02:14:14   I shouldn't say the interior,

02:14:15   but completely reworks the mechanicals

02:14:17   such that they're these ridiculous performance cars

02:14:20   that are using,

02:14:20   and I think this is what you're driving at, Marco,

02:14:22   using 2017 era parts, but in a 1960s era Porsche.

02:14:27   I don't think that's what DeLorean's doing.

02:14:29   I think they're doing at most a modest update or upgrade,

02:14:33   but it's mostly the same stuff you saw in the early 80s.

02:14:37   - So the problem with the DeLorean is that--

02:14:40   - The problem?

02:14:41   (laughing)

02:14:42   - Is that we all have nostalgia about Back to the Future

02:14:45   and how cool it was back then

02:14:46   and how cool it looked back then,

02:14:48   and it's such an incredibly rare car

02:14:51   that most of us have never actually even seen one

02:14:55   in real life, let alone have ever ridden in one

02:14:58   or a Driven One or anything else.

02:15:00   So if you tell someone, like,

02:15:02   "Oh, we're bringing back the DeLorean,"

02:15:03   like a lot of people who were roughly in our age group

02:15:05   would be like, "Yeah, cool, that sounds awesome."

02:15:07   But you've been able to buy a DeLorean

02:15:11   for the last 20 years for a reasonable amount of money.

02:15:16   Last time I looked, you could get one

02:15:18   that was very lightly used

02:15:20   and had a bunch of new parts for $25,000

02:15:23   in totally restored condition.

02:15:26   That's really not that much money

02:15:28   for a crazy second fun car.

02:15:32   So it's not like you haven't been able to get them

02:15:34   all this time, you have, and still practically nobody

02:15:38   has actually sought one out and bought one.

02:15:40   Because it turns out, first of all, in person,

02:15:43   they don't look that impressive.

02:15:45   They look really '80s, extremely '80s.

02:15:48   And from the car nerd's perspective,

02:15:52   it isn't a particularly fun or fast or compelling car

02:15:56   to drive, so like, if they're gonna bring it back,

02:16:01   in quotes, like in finger quotes,

02:16:03   without really making any changes to it,

02:16:05   that would make it like a more interesting car

02:16:07   to enthusiasts, who's gonna buy it?

02:16:11   - Yeah, I don't know.

02:16:12   - Back to the Future fans.

02:16:14   - I guess so.

02:16:15   - Yeah, but Back to the Future fans have been able

02:16:18   to spend $25,000 to buy one for years.

02:16:20   - Yeah, the new ones will be more reliable,

02:16:23   and you'll be able to get parts of them

02:16:24   a little bit easier, and then hopefully drive

02:16:26   little bit better and so then it's like it's getting over that hump of I don't

02:16:29   want an actual flooring because it's just you know a terrible car and

02:16:33   unreliable and difficult to repair and these new ones presumably will improve

02:16:37   in all those ways so it finally gets you over the hump to have the will they

02:16:40   silly nostalgic thing I'm hoping I mean why are they doing new ones that you

02:16:44   know they should just fill it with Honda Toyota parts so it actually works and

02:16:48   then keep the outside the same

02:16:51   [BLANK_AUDIO]