238: Begging for the Hub


00:00:00   We didn't even address rose gold is what we forgot. Rose gold or no?

00:00:03   What about it?

00:00:04   Is there going to be rose gold?

00:00:06   Why wouldn't there be?

00:00:07   It's allegedly now that like pink copper color.

00:00:09   Is it going to be like space gray where they just keep calling this 20 different colors rose gold

00:00:13   despite the fact that they look nothing like each other?

00:00:15   It's rose gold, right?

00:00:17   It's like just, I don't care. I don't buy those phones.

00:00:20   We have a lot to talk about and we should start immediately as we always do with follow-up.

00:00:26   Richard Anderson writes in, "If you use all the Apple things, isn't iCloud pretty close

00:00:31   to offering full Mac backup?

00:00:33   Desktop and Docs and iCloud Drive, Photos and iCloud Photo Library, Music and iCloud

00:00:36   Music Library," or whatever it's called, iTunes Match I guess.

00:00:39   "One extra thing offered by Backblaze is backup of other folders in user home, and with storage

00:00:44   sharing in the new OSs, the 2TB plan is a good option."

00:00:48   I'm assuming they mean 2TB iCloud, but whatever, it doesn't really matter.

00:00:51   More for Apple to do, but that's a lot of Mac backup they're offering.

00:00:56   So why is that not sufficient?

00:00:58   I will speak for me first in saying I do not use all the Apple things.

00:01:03   I very much like iTunes Match.

00:01:06   I have never tried iCloud Photo Library.

00:01:08   Don't trust it.

00:01:09   Don't plan to use it.

00:01:10   I have used iCloud Drive only for things like Solver, for example, where it's just easier

00:01:18   to save those documents to iCloud Drive.

00:01:19   But I don't use it as like a Dropbox replacement where I'm just putting random crap in there.

00:01:25   And I think that was most of what they said.

00:01:27   So for me, I don't trust Apple to do those things as well as the long-standing people

00:01:34   have done it, so I don't use Apple for all the things.

00:01:38   Although I understand Richard's point, and I do think he is onto something.

00:01:42   So Marco, how do you treat all this stuff?

00:01:44   Would this be sufficient for you?

00:01:45   - I mean, obviously not.

00:01:47   I mean, we're all nerds, so we're all gonna have different types of data that's gonna

00:01:50   be different folders and everything else.

00:01:52   So it's probably not gonna really help nerds very much.

00:01:55   But I think it's basically Apple hitting the big things first, picking the low-hanging

00:02:01   fruit. So photos are a big one. What do people, you know, you gotta look at what people store

00:02:06   on their computers. Where is most of the stuff they store and what is the stuff that is hardest

00:02:11   to, that is basically hardest to lose? Stuff that, if your computer was wiped out, what

00:02:17   would most people freak out about losing the most? So photos are a huge one. That's probably

00:02:22   the number one on that scale.

00:02:25   So they have a service now to do that.

00:02:27   And it's built into the phone, it's built into the Mac,

00:02:29   it's built into, you know, it's like,

00:02:30   they cover photos really well.

00:02:33   They added the documents folder and desktop folder in Sierra.

00:02:38   I still have not been brave enough

00:02:40   to actually try to use that feature.

00:02:42   However, that's also, you know, two big spots.

00:02:45   Basically where most people store most stuff

00:02:47   is either in the documents folder

00:02:49   where every app in history has defaulted to saving

00:02:53   because that's where they think you should put your documents

00:02:57   or the desktop, which is where people actually

00:03:00   put all their documents.

00:03:01   So it's great they hit those two big ones.

00:03:05   But music, that's another big one,

00:03:07   and a lot of movement and streaming anyway.

00:03:10   So they're doing it piecemeal so far.

00:03:13   That's nice.

00:03:14   That is better than not doing it at all.

00:03:16   And that has probably saved literally millions

00:03:18   of people's data loss from being worse

00:03:21   than it could have been.

00:03:22   So that's a great thing to do,

00:03:25   but that's not full backup of a computer.

00:03:27   That's a separate type of product,

00:03:29   separate type of design and decisions

00:03:33   and implementation details that has to work out.

00:03:35   So no, that is not enough to be a full backup.

00:03:39   It is enough for many people,

00:03:42   or it's close to enough for many people,

00:03:44   but many people are not all people,

00:03:46   and that's not a full backup.

00:03:48   So it's not just that it's not a full backup. The problem is that it's not a backup. That's the real problem.

00:03:54   So if you're going through like, "Oh, aren't they creeping up on a full backup solution by backing up bits and bits?"

00:03:59   Those aren't backups. Those are just cloud storage of stuff. It's like calling a Dropbox a backup.

00:04:03   Dropbox is not a backup, right? A backup is, first of all, completely service agnostic.

00:04:09   Backblaze doesn't care what I use to store my photos. Backblaze doesn't care if I use Dropbox, Google Drive, anything like that.

00:04:15   that it's not application connected and backplays makes a separate copy of my stuff, right?

00:04:21   And I know Dropbox, you've got your local files and they've got your cloud versions

00:04:24   and you've got local files and all your other computers.

00:04:26   You can kind of sort of view it as a backup and the same thing with iCloud Drive or iCloud

00:04:30   Photo Library, but they're just fundamentally not backups.

00:04:33   So for example, if in iCloud Photo Library you accidentally delete all your photos and

00:04:37   that syncs to all of your things, I know they go into recently deleted and yada yada, but

00:04:41   stay with me here. Like if you actually legitimately deleted them, you can't

00:04:45   restore them from your backup. It's like, "Oh, iCloud photo library is my backup."

00:04:49   No, it's not. It is a cloud synced representation of your current data.

00:04:54   If you totally wipe out your photos or delete everything from your Dropbox or

00:04:59   do something else that actually deletes them, deletes them for realsies, realsies,

00:05:01   out of the recently deleted, out of the trash or whatever, and you go to Backblaze

00:05:07   to restore from backup, Backblaze will still have them because Backblaze doesn't

00:05:10   what the hell you do with iCloud photo library, right?

00:05:13   It's going to still have those photos

00:05:15   or whatever your actual backup solution is.

00:05:17   So the key part of a backup solution is

00:05:19   it is a separate copy that is disconnected

00:05:22   from the programs that created that stuff.

00:05:24   Same thing with iCloud backup for your phone, right?

00:05:26   If you delete everything off your phone,

00:05:28   your previous iCloud backup of your phone

00:05:31   still has that stuff on it.

00:05:32   So if you're like, oh, I've made a terrible mistake,

00:05:33   reset my phone, restore from cloud backup,

00:05:36   I think they still give you,

00:05:37   I haven't done this in a while,

00:05:38   but don't they give you like a date,

00:05:40   a series of backup dates where you can restore

00:05:42   from your most recent backup,

00:05:43   second most recent, third most recent, right?

00:05:44   I don't know what the retention policy is.

00:05:46   And that's a point of contention

00:05:48   of a lot of these backup services,

00:05:49   but the nature of a backup is it is a separate thing.

00:05:52   So Cloud Sync is great,

00:05:55   and I use it in addition to my backups,

00:05:56   but it should never be confused with an actual backup

00:05:58   because it's a separate job.

00:06:00   And you want both.

00:06:01   I want iCloud Photo Library.

00:06:03   In fact, I have my photos in two cloud libraries,

00:06:05   but I also have multiple actual backups of my photos.

00:06:08   So backups are different than Cloud Sync.

00:06:11   - All right, Marco, you have some quick follow-up

00:06:14   on your requirement that you spend $1,000

00:06:18   to take good pictures, which clearly,

00:06:21   I mean, all snark aside, to me,

00:06:23   I totally understood what you were driving at

00:06:25   and that I don't think that was intended to be a literal,

00:06:27   like it is impossible to take good pictures

00:06:29   with less than $1,000 spent,

00:06:31   but seemingly your sarcasm was not well received

00:06:35   or understood, so can you clarify for us please?

00:06:37   - Sure, yeah, so last episode we talked about,

00:06:40   one of the Ask ATP questions was about beginner camera

00:06:42   advice and some setup advice, and I had said something

00:06:46   on the lines of you probably need to spend at least

00:06:49   a thousand dollars in order to get pictures

00:06:53   that are significantly better than a recent iPhone's camera,

00:06:58   because the cameras in smartphones are so good these days

00:07:00   that it doesn't just take a mid-range point and shoot

00:07:04   to be better than an iPhone in a lot of conditions.

00:07:07   A lot of times you have to be better,

00:07:07   you have to go even higher than that.

00:07:09   A lot of times you have to go to a mirrorless

00:07:11   or a high-end compact to really be better.

00:07:14   So I had thrown out the number of roughly $1,000

00:07:16   as an approximate minimum.

00:07:18   A number of people wrote in,

00:07:20   "Most of the contention seemed to be

00:07:22   "that I was prioritizing the price of the camera body

00:07:26   "over the price of the lenses."

00:07:28   I don't think I actually said that,

00:07:30   But I left it ambiguous and that was my fault.

00:07:33   What I really meant to convey with that estimate

00:07:36   was the cost of the whole setup, body and lenses.

00:07:40   You know, and I'm not even including in that

00:07:42   like an amazing high quality set of primes or zooms.

00:07:46   I'm thinking like, you know, what most people do

00:07:47   which is you get the kit lens,

00:07:49   or you know, if it has a kit lens,

00:07:50   you get the kit lens for like kind of general use

00:07:52   and maybe you get like a 50 millimeter equivalent prime

00:07:55   because those are usually really inexpensive

00:07:56   and really high quality.

00:07:57   Something like that, like one good prime

00:08:00   with whatever general purpose lens you're gonna use on it.

00:08:03   And usually that's gonna put you over $1,000

00:08:05   with almost any decent setup.

00:08:08   So that's kinda where I got that from.

00:08:10   Again, this is a ballpark, this is meant to be an estimate,

00:08:13   this is not, these are all squishy, vague things,

00:08:17   and it's also all very subjective.

00:08:20   The other thing I wanted to talk about

00:08:21   with camera follow-up is we,

00:08:24   John mentioned that I had told him at one point

00:08:27   that the secret to, or no, Casey, one of you mentioned

00:08:30   that I had told you at one point

00:08:32   that the secret to photography was don't use the flash

00:08:34   and take lots of pictures.

00:08:36   And we got a number of people who wrote in

00:08:38   who took offense to this because they thought

00:08:42   that either we should learn how to use the flash properly

00:08:45   or that it is not necessary to take lots of pictures

00:08:47   to take good pictures, that in fact many people

00:08:49   can take great pictures and as they get better,

00:08:51   they take fewer.

00:08:52   That's true.

00:08:54   And that's great advice if you have,

00:08:57   If you've already developed a good eye

00:08:59   and a good proficiency with the technical side of things,

00:09:02   that is not true of most beginners.

00:09:05   It's not true of me when I was a beginner.

00:09:07   It's not true of me now.

00:09:08   If you can shoot fewer pictures

00:09:12   and get the same number of hits, that's great.

00:09:15   That means you're getting better at it.

00:09:17   But for beginners, it helps to take a lot

00:09:19   and then you can kinda see where you go wrong

00:09:22   on some of them and you have a better chance

00:09:23   of having caught something almost accidentally

00:09:26   instead of having to get it exactly right

00:09:28   the very first time.

00:09:29   - Yeah, I thought your advice was good,

00:09:31   which is why I brought it up.

00:09:32   And I stand by your advice for, like you said,

00:09:36   the general purpose person, which is exactly what I was.

00:09:39   I was a complete novice, I was a noob,

00:09:41   and I wanted some basic guidance

00:09:43   on how to take a decent shot.

00:09:44   And to me, I concur that avoiding the flash

00:09:48   and just trying not to just drown it out

00:09:52   with too much light is the right answer.

00:09:54   Now, one of the things that somebody wrote in to say

00:09:56   was, "No, no, no, no, no, no, you need to think about where the light is." Well, okay,

00:09:59   sure, but that to me is like step two, or whatever. The first step is just trying to

00:10:04   take a decent picture that isn't just blown out to smithereens. And any normal camera,

00:10:09   particularly, you told me this in like 2007 or 8 or something like that, so, you know,

00:10:15   your average camera was a point-and-shoot, which probably had a flash that was always

00:10:19   ready to rock and on 90% of the time. So, it made perfect sense, and I stick with it

00:10:25   didn't stand by it on and I think you were right to say it.

00:10:28   So don't let the haters get you.

00:10:30   But speaking of photos, we had a little bit

00:10:32   of interesting feedback about printing photos.

00:10:33   John, do you wanna tell us about this?

00:10:35   - I mentioned it last show, like as a diversity of backup,

00:10:38   but also to like print your photos

00:10:40   so you actually look at them every day

00:10:41   and get to enjoy them.

00:10:42   So the enjoyment thing, everyone's all on board with that,

00:10:45   but the diversity of backup,

00:10:46   a lot of people want it to point out that

00:10:48   many modern processes for printing photos

00:10:51   will not stand the test of time.

00:10:53   They won't even last as long as the photos printed from like your childhood in the 70s,

00:10:58   right?

00:10:59   Because of the differences in chemical composition of developed photos or, God forbid, if you're

00:11:05   printing them on your inkjet printer, those are going to be, and putting them somewhere

00:11:10   in sunlight, those will be dead in like a week and a half, right?

00:11:14   So if you are actually trying to make hard copies of your photos for the purposes of

00:11:20   diversity of backup you'll have to go and find someone who's going to print them on

00:11:25   like acid-free paper with a process that's not gonna you know fade or one of the colors

00:11:29   isn't gonna go all wonky or whatever.

00:11:31   I confess I have no idea what those processes might be.

00:11:35   Digital is my backup for the most part but even if you're just even if you just have

00:11:40   a bunch of prints that will last like even just a few years you don't have to last 100

00:11:44   years so they'll last a few years and if they're spread around or if you have some sort of

00:11:48   digital disaster and all you've got left are the prints, it is possible to recover,

00:11:52   you know, you can scan those prints back in. Now it's not going to be great, but scanning prints

00:11:57   back in is way better than losing your pictures entirely. Like we have our wedding photos for a

00:12:03   while, you know, they were, we got married before the digital camera age, so they were taken on film

00:12:07   and we had prints of them and I have no idea how high quality those prints are, but anyway, we scanned

00:12:12   the prints and scanning the prints didn't come out great, but it was reassuring to have the photos

00:12:18   on our computer and backed up a bazillion times, right?

00:12:22   And eventually many years later,

00:12:24   we went through the process of scanning the negatives

00:12:26   and that came up way better

00:12:28   because we still have the negatives, right?

00:12:30   And so now we have digital copies of our wedding photos

00:12:32   in addition to, you know, ones that are in it.

00:12:34   We have a wedding album,

00:12:35   we have things in frames on the wall.

00:12:38   So I feel like we have a pretty big diversity

00:12:40   of wedding photo backups.

00:12:42   You know, all the digital versions, the negatives,

00:12:45   pictures in frames and pictures in albums.

00:12:48   And so that's what you're going for.

00:12:50   But like I said, if you're interested in making prints

00:12:53   for archival purposes or to pass on

00:12:55   to your children or grandchildren,

00:12:57   be sure that you just can't go to a Walgreens

00:13:00   and get a print.

00:13:01   You have no idea how long it's gonna last.

00:13:02   You have to do some research on this.

00:13:04   - Alrighty.

00:13:07   And do you wanna talk to me

00:13:08   about the plateau of photo resolution?

00:13:10   - Couple of people wanted to talk about this.

00:13:14   I listened back to the show.

00:13:15   I thought I had said more about it,

00:13:16   but apparently I just thought some of it and said less.

00:13:20   This was about the idea that photos get bigger every year.

00:13:24   And I was saying that that'll level off

00:13:28   because you get diminishing returns at a certain point.

00:13:32   And you can argue what that point may be.

00:13:34   A lot of people said, well, you know,

00:13:36   it may not be useful to have a thousand megapixel image

00:13:39   because like, you know, you don't need that many pixels

00:13:42   for normal sizes that you're gonna print it,

00:13:44   but now all of a sudden you have the ability

00:13:45   crop subsections of the image and stuff like that. But even in terms of cropping and everything,

00:13:51   they will reach a point of diminishing returns. Is it 100 megapixels? Is it a thousand? Is it

00:13:56   10,000? You're not going to have a 10 billion megapixel image. Like, it's just not going to

00:14:01   happen. It's not a useful thing unless you're NASA. Like, taking pictures of the surface of

00:14:05   a planet. And even those are a series of other pictures stuck together, right? But this is all

00:14:10   talking about plain old 2D pictures. Nothing else in them, just, you know, colors and pixels

00:14:18   in a big matrix, right? As soon as you start considering other things, like photos with

00:14:25   depth or light field photos or things that are not simply 2D images or photos with like

00:14:30   live picture photos or photos where you can, 360 degree photos where you can move around

00:14:34   or change the focal depth and all these other technologies that are different than plain

00:14:38   old 2D photos, those can potentially be very large.

00:14:43   It remains to be seen if those will take the place of plain 2D photos.

00:14:46   I have to think that plain 2D photos will still have a place in the world, and that

00:14:52   those will be capped in the same way that audio is essentially capped.

00:14:56   We have two ears, and yes, you can have multi-channel audio, and yes, you could go up in higher

00:15:00   bit depths and resolutions, but at a certain point, and we may already be at that point,

00:15:05   digital audio files are not going to get any bigger than today's biggest, highest resolution,

00:15:12   totally uncompressed audio.

00:15:15   Because there's no point.

00:15:16   There's no point in taking 100,000 times more space than flak.

00:15:19   You know, 75 channel flak and 196 kilohertz or whatever, the max values that we're able

00:15:27   to do, there's no point in going much bigger than that because the limits of human hearing,

00:15:33   right?

00:15:34   once you go out of the realm of 2D photography into the realm of like VR or like a scene you could travel around in or

00:15:42   Depth maps or other things like that then you start to go up on the curve again

00:15:47   I have to think that that will eventually level off too because again our eyeballs can only see so much and

00:15:52   there's eventually a limit to

00:15:54   You know just even in a 3D world how much you want to move around but that's a different graph

00:15:58   But I but photo resolution like I think in our lifetime photo resolution or playing 2d photos

00:16:04   Will level off and if I had to guess what the number is

00:16:08   I would guess that it is going to be under a thousand megapixels

00:16:12   so

00:16:13   Probably some number of hundreds of megapixels maybe as low as one or two hundred and that will be like the point at which people

00:16:20   in the same way mp3 is like it seems almost like

00:16:22   256 kilobit

00:16:25   lossy compressed

00:16:27   Files are like yeah, we can do better than that. But at this point consumers are fine with it. So we'll just stick with that

00:16:34   So I think that will happen

00:16:36   So don't worry about storing, you know, if storage sizes keep going up, you know

00:16:41   It was the current trends because we always have more stuff to store like video and you know

00:16:46   All the other things we have hell pretty soon

00:16:49   Each game is going to be a hundred times the size of like the biggest hard drive. I could have imagined like ten years ago

00:16:55   We'll have plenty of room for generation upon generation of photos in our storage

00:16:59   speaking of the size of games I was

00:17:03   Looking through some old files that I have and I noticed that

00:17:08   Super Nintendo

00:17:10   Games are like under a meg

00:17:13   That's a small smaller than a Mac OS icon. Yeah

00:17:17   It's insane like I understand it like it conceptually makes sense

00:17:23   But it's hard for me to reason through it.

00:17:26   Or, you know, when you think about it without really reasoning through it,

00:17:29   is I guess what I'm trying to say, it's just like, wait, how can that possibly be so small?

00:17:34   There was so many hours of gameplay I got from that. How can that be so small?

00:17:39   But, I mean, again, once you start thinking about it, it does make sense.

00:17:41   But, wow, did that really kind of freak me out when I saw that.

00:17:45   [Music]

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00:19:50   (upbeat music)

00:19:53   - Anyway, let's do some Ask ATP.

00:19:56   Thomas Holliday writes in to say,

00:19:58   "Apple distributes not a lot of WWDC tickets with a lottery.

00:20:02   "If Apple reused its WWDC ticket system

00:20:04   "to allocate first day iPhone whatever shipments,

00:20:07   "would that be better or worse than what they do now,

00:20:09   "which is a screen refresh click fest?"

00:20:13   After the iPhones are up for sale, presumably next week sometime, I will tell you our secret

00:20:21   to how to avoid the screen refresh click fest, which really means Marco or Jon is about to

00:20:26   tell you the secret to avoid the screen refresh click fest.

00:20:28   >> John B.

00:20:28   - Force quitting the app and using the app?

00:20:30   - Yeah, basically.

00:20:31   Just use the app on your phone.

00:20:33   That's the way to do it.

00:20:34   - Well, but the reality is, like,

00:20:35   no matter what method you pick,

00:20:36   whether it is refreshing the store page in a web browser

00:20:40   or whether it is using the Apple Store app,

00:20:41   which is definitely the method I recommend,

00:20:43   and even if you take all the shortcuts,

00:20:45   like if you first set it up as a favorite

00:20:47   after it's been announced before it ships,

00:20:49   then you can go in and just go right to your favorites

00:20:51   and order from there in the app.

00:20:52   Like, there are ways to make this faster.

00:20:54   However, the way the store has worked in the last few years

00:20:58   different areas, I don't know whether it's because of

00:21:01   CDN caching or different region caching,

00:21:04   it seems like there's something about caching or going live,

00:21:08   not every region goes live at the same time.

00:21:11   And so, no matter what, if you are not one of the lucky few

00:21:15   whose region goes up the very first,

00:21:18   whatever you're loading from might go up five minutes later

00:21:22   than some other people's.

00:21:24   And so you're already backordered.

00:21:26   Or like, you're gonna only be able to get

00:21:28   the least desirable color in the largest size for T-Mobile

00:21:32   or something like that.

00:21:34   It's gonna be back ordered like crazy.

00:21:35   And if the various rumors of low volumes

00:21:39   and low availability due to low yields

00:21:44   or low production numbers, if that's all true

00:21:47   or if it's even half true, it's gonna be a crazy mess

00:21:52   of scalpers buying them, having to get them off of eBay

00:21:56   or Craigslist or everyone trying to like sneak in

00:22:00   through the business reps.

00:22:01   Like it's gonna be a huge mess

00:22:02   of trying to get these phones.

00:22:04   I would say probably until January.

00:22:07   Maybe even longer than that.

00:22:09   So just expect going into it

00:22:11   that almost no one's gonna have these on day one

00:22:14   unless you are willing to pay a large premium

00:22:17   or you get very, very lucky.

00:22:19   - Yeah, and I actually wrote up a blog post

00:22:22   on all this last year.

00:22:25   And we'll put a link in the show notes.

00:22:26   It's called iPhone Pre-Order Lessons Learned, and basically it's exactly what you described,

00:22:29   Marco.

00:22:30   Set up your favorite in the Apple Store app, get your Apple Pay settings squared away in

00:22:34   advance, make sure your shipping stuff is squared away, etc.

00:22:39   It ended up that, according to this post, that my pre-order went through at 3.11 in

00:22:44   the morning.

00:22:45   If you recall, the pre-orders in years past have always started at midnight Pacific, because

00:22:50   apparently the world revolves around California.

00:22:52   Anyway, so they went up at three or so our time, and then it's never actually on time,

00:22:58   because besides caching, California is not exactly a punctual area of the world.

00:23:02   Don't @ me.

00:23:03   You can email Marco about that.

00:23:05   Hey, don't hate me.

00:23:07   It's true.

00:23:08   But anyways.

00:23:09   Even on vacation at midnight.

00:23:10   Yeah.

00:23:11   Even on vacation at midnight, they're still not punctual.

00:23:13   It drives me bananas.

00:23:14   But anyway, the point is that 3.11 was when I finally got it through, and what I ended

00:23:18   up doing was just what Marco said, you know, force quitting the Apple Store app, trying

00:23:21   again, force quitting the app, trying again, etc., etc.

00:23:24   And that is—and I've tried just about every mechanism for buying iPhones over the

00:23:28   last few years, and that is the one I do recommend.

00:23:31   It may not work this year, it may not work for you, but that is what I recommend.

00:23:35   John, what are your thoughts on this?

00:23:37   I'll have to actually answer this question.

00:23:39   Would it be better if they used the lottery?

00:23:42   No, it would not be better if they used the lottery.

00:23:44   It would be worse if they used the lottery.

00:23:46   The difference between WWC tickets and iPhones is that iPhones, they make more of them, right?

00:23:53   So you may not get it as soon as other people, but you're going to get an iPhone if you want

00:23:58   one eventually.

00:23:59   Whereas WWDC tickets, if you don't get one of them, that's it until next year, right?

00:24:04   So a lottery would be worse because that's just more bookkeeping and the added bit of

00:24:10   randomness and like I said with WWDC tickets when we talked about WWDC lottery, I kind

00:24:15   of like the idea that people who are willing to stay up at three in the morning and have

00:24:18   these elaborate systems put more effort into it showing they care more about getting in

00:24:22   on day one and they're rewarded for that.

00:24:24   Whereas a lottery is like, oh, well, everybody's equal in the eyes of the lottery and it's

00:24:28   just totally random.

00:24:29   And so I like the idea that there's something people can do to try to get an iPhone sooner.

00:24:34   But like I said, unlike WWC tickets, if you don't get one, that doesn't mean you can never

00:24:38   have one of these iPhones.

00:24:39   You just have to wait a little bit longer.

00:24:40   Rest assured, Apple will sell you one unless it's like the white iPhone 4 and then in which

00:24:44   case you might have to wait a really, really long time, but you'll get one eventually.

00:24:48   So lottery would be worse.

00:24:49   All right, Monte Thomas writes in, "Is there a perceptible difference under normal viewing

00:24:54   conditions between 4K UHD and 1080p HD?

00:24:58   If so, is that difference substantial enough to justify TV and Blu-ray upgrades?

00:25:02   Recently I've been reading some articles that Steve Yedlin, the director of photography

00:25:07   of The Last Jedi, has written on the topic of 4K.

00:25:09   He argues that 4K is used by TV manufacturers and others as a marketing gimmick and is not

00:25:14   a valuable feature in itself. This seems to be a compelling position that I've seen little

00:25:18   meaningful counterarguments against. I don't really know anything about this, so I'm going

00:25:22   to throw in my two cents so I can feel smart and then give it to Jon. But my understanding

00:25:27   is that it's HDR that's the real good stuff, and that 4K, in most cases until you get just

00:25:32   a comically large TV, really isn't that great. So Jon, what's the reality?

00:25:37   So there are plenty of meaningful counterarguments, because as you noted, first of all, 4K, when

00:25:43   you see like that on a television it represents a set of industry standards that people have

00:25:48   all agreed on.

00:25:49   Only one aspect of which is the increased resolution.

00:25:53   There are other aspects to it.

00:25:55   Setting aside HDR, which you're right is probably a much bigger deal than 4K.

00:25:59   The plain old 4K standards have different bit depths, different frame rates, and all

00:26:06   sorts of other things, different color profiles, right?

00:26:10   Also other things that make the picture better.

00:26:12   Now as for the resolution itself, there are, you know,

00:26:15   I tried to find a good one for the show,

00:26:16   and this one I found is reasonable.

00:26:19   There are calculators you can put in to say,

00:26:22   how big is my TV?

00:26:23   How far away do I sit from it?

00:26:25   And at what point does the increased resolution

00:26:28   become meaningless?

00:26:28   Now, the question of become meaningless is tricky

00:26:32   because a lot of these things use like,

00:26:33   oh, the eye is no longer able to resolve anything,

00:26:37   you know, smaller than this particular size or whatever.

00:26:40   That's not necessarily the point at which

00:26:42   the picture is indistinguishable because you're not trying to resolve individual pixels or

00:26:48   lines distinct from each other. I can still perceive increased detail even if it can't

00:26:54   perceive the boundaries between the pixels, right? But nevertheless, there is a point

00:26:58   at which your distance from the television combined with the size of the television means

00:27:01   that 4K is completely indistinguishable from 1080, 1080 is indistinguishable from 720,

00:27:06   so on and so forth. So a lot of these charts have things that show your screen size and

00:27:09   your distance and a bunch of lines and you can, you know, plot the things and find out

00:27:13   where you lie and they show a region of the graph where it's like if you're in this region

00:27:17   of the graph, it doesn't matter if you have 1080 or 4K or 720 because they all look the

00:27:22   same to you.

00:27:23   So use one of these viewing distance calculators, one of which we will put in the show notes,

00:27:27   to see if it makes a difference in your setup.

00:27:29   But like I said, keep in mind that 4K resolution is just one aspect of 4K and not even the

00:27:35   most important aspect for most people in most setups.

00:27:38   HDR is, I don't know if it's part of the 4K standards, but anyway, HDR comes in modern

00:27:42   TVs and that is more important than 4K resolution and the color profiles and bit depth are also

00:27:49   probably more important than the resolution.

00:27:52   So yes, 4K TVs are probably worth it and bottom line is, like so many things before, you don't

00:28:00   have a choice.

00:28:01   Eventually you won't even be able to buy a non-4K TV, so don't sweat it too much and

00:28:05   rest assured that it is not just a marketing gimmick.

00:28:07   It does, you know, modern TVs, 4K, UHD, HDR,

00:28:11   or capable TVs have better picture than 1080 TVs,

00:28:15   even if you can't see the resolution difference.

00:28:18   - So let me ask a dumb question now.

00:28:20   My understanding of HDR comes from

00:28:23   when it was added to the iPhone.

00:28:25   And my understanding is it's a way of saying,

00:28:28   well, you're taking a portrait of somebody

00:28:31   like at the edge of a mountain, for example,

00:28:33   and you want the people to be exposed properly,

00:28:37   but you also want the perhaps comparatively much brighter landscape in the background

00:28:43   to also be exposed properly.

00:28:45   And so my understanding of how the iPhone works is that it'll like take two or three

00:28:49   shots at different exposure levels or what have you and kind of stitch them together

00:28:53   to make one shot that's exposed properly at a wide range of distances.

00:28:59   Is assuming that's the case, why is this on the presentation side?

00:29:05   Like what makes that, that to me is a capture time issue.

00:29:08   What makes it a display time issue?

00:29:11   - So yeah, you're looking at it at the opposite end.

00:29:13   You're looking at it at capture,

00:29:15   what you're trying to do is

00:29:17   like your sensor has a certain dynamic range.

00:29:19   You know what this is like if you're taking a picture

00:29:21   with a film camera or any kind of camera,

00:29:23   depending on how you have your camera set up

00:29:26   in terms of what's the aperture or shutter speed,

00:29:29   the speed of the film in the old days,

00:29:31   your sensor, blah, blah, blah, blah.

00:29:32   The bottom line is certain areas below a certain darkness are 100% black and areas above a certain

00:29:37   brightness are 100% white that represents a dynamic range of your current setup of taking a picture, right and

00:29:44   if you have an image that you see with your eyeballs or you know out in the world where the brightest part is really really

00:29:50   Bright and the darkest part is really really dark and that that range is way bigger than the dynamic range of your capturing equipment

00:29:57   The way they cheat this with HDR photos and the iPhone is they will take multiple pictures at different exposures

00:30:03   so they will say

00:30:03   I'm going to take that out of range of the camera and shift it way over to the left and take one picture over there

00:30:08   And then put it in the middle take one picture there and put it at the other end take one picture there

00:30:12   And then I combine them all so I can't so instead of

00:30:14   The the shadowy part of the picture being a hundred percent black and the bright part being a hundred percent white

00:30:19   I will take those three different pictures with three different exposure settings essentially and

00:30:23   Combine them all into a singer picture and I really hope nothing in between because it'll be all blurry and gross, right?

00:30:27   That is making that trying to fake the dynamic range of your sensor to make it wider now on the display side

00:30:33   assuming your content was either captured with the higher dynamic range by like a much fancier camera than the ones in our phones or

00:30:40   Manipulated in some way in a computer to add more dynamicism

00:30:44   Back in it to say that the bright parts are really bright in the dark parts are really dark

00:30:48   Now the display has the capability to show that range. Usually this manifests in the bright parts being much brighter than you thought

00:30:55   but it's the same thing like if you

00:30:58   If you take your television like crank down the brightness or whatever all of a sudden the shadowy areas just become 100% black and you

00:31:04   Can't see anything and the same thing if you crank up the brightness you lose all detail in the light areas

00:31:08   Right a screen with the higher dynamic range can show details in those shadows while also

00:31:13   Not washing out everything at the bright end and like I said this usually meant TVs are good at but

00:31:18   Pretty good at showing shadow detail, but if you want the brights to be really really bright

00:31:24   You will destroy all the shadow detail on a TV with a cylinder deck range

00:31:28   So high dynamic range TVs when you watch them it feels doesn't feel like looking out a window obviously

00:31:33   It's not like the Sun burning your eyeballs out from your television

00:31:36   But they go much brighter than regular televisions and when they go brighter like that, it doesn't wash out the bright the blacks

00:31:42   So that's high dynamic range in

00:31:44   the display tech

00:31:47   So when I watch an HDR TV

00:31:49   Do I have to put like a little pinhole in a box and look in the box and all that just like now?

00:31:54   This is how it works

00:31:55   I think I haven't been keeping up with this recently, but I'm pretty sure no television you can buy

00:32:00   Maxes out the range of like the the highest dynamic range standard like to be compliant

00:32:06   You just have to I fit this some fudge factor of like you just have to be like within this range

00:32:10   But the HDR standards go like to super super bright

00:32:14   And I don't think any television for sale today can hit the max limit of the HDR standard with the highest range

00:32:21   Maybe it's Dolby Vision

00:32:22   I forget

00:32:22   Because if you were to crank any current panels to that level it would wash out the dark so they have a much higher dynamic

00:32:28   Range than I don't know what you call the regular televisions TVs without HDR right much much higher than that

00:32:34   But there's still even had room in current standards, but no you won't need to burn your eyes out

00:32:38   Although I imagine if you're watching it in a really dark room and a movie a poorly

00:32:42   Mastered movie switches from a really dark scene to a really bright scene. You're gonna squint

00:32:47   I've had that happen with my night

00:32:48   She our TV ever watched like a movie in the dark and it switches from a dark

00:32:50   They've been in a dark scene for a long time then it switches to bright sunlight and you squint

00:32:54   I've had that happen with my extremely dim by standards of HDR or even terrible LED backlit LCDs

00:33:02   I've had that happen with my plasma. So I imagine that'll happen even more so with HDR

00:33:08   Finally, for Ask ATP, you know, these previous two were really long.

00:33:12   Are you accepting Ask ATP via email?

00:33:13   Because that was not part of the agreement.

00:33:16   Those were tweets.

00:33:17   Mmm.

00:33:18   I'm just getting to all of them.

00:33:19   Tweet storms!

00:33:20   That's what people do instead of blogging.

00:33:21   I was going to blog this, but how about I write it a sentence at a time?

00:33:24   With numbers at the end of it.

00:33:26   Every time I read that, I just think, "What happened to blogging?"

00:33:28   All you've got to do is do one tweet with a link to a blog.

00:33:31   That's it.

00:33:32   But people don't want to click through the link, so they'd much rather read what you

00:33:35   write one tiny paragraph at a time.

00:33:37   In some ways it makes people convince their thoughts and say, you know, so they don't

00:33:42   just ramble on and on and on.

00:33:44   But the other way, it's like, too many damn tweets.

00:33:47   Anyway, this was like three tweets.

00:33:48   I accept that.

00:33:49   Well, it's better than tweet shots at least.

00:33:50   Oh, amen, brother.

00:33:52   I hated tweet shots.

00:33:53   What are tweet shots?

00:33:54   When you would take a picture of it or take a screenshot of the thing you're trying to

00:34:00   talk about.

00:34:01   And you'd like write it in notes?

00:34:02   And then highlight, yeah, and like highlight the section.

00:34:04   Oh, God.

00:34:05   That's like a feature of the medium site.

00:34:07   Isn't it that they manufacture those pings

00:34:09   programmatically for you or whatever and upload them?

00:34:11   - Yeah, what was it?

00:34:12   Like OneShot or something was an app that used to do it

00:34:14   and was really popular for like two months or something?

00:34:17   - Yeah, you say it's better, but honestly,

00:34:19   I would rather click on one of those stupid images

00:34:21   and read it than have to scroll through 75 tweets.

00:34:24   - In any case, just to let the record show

00:34:28   that if you're writing a tweet storm,

00:34:29   your question is probably too long.

00:34:32   Matt Sullivan writes in one tweet, an obscenely short amount of characters, and I commend

00:34:36   you for it, "What would you..." or let me try that again, "Would you discuss why and

00:34:41   how y'all use Plex Media Server?"

00:34:43   I would love to, because I love talking about Plex.

00:34:47   So this, you know, we might not have time for the iPhone announcement predictions, because

00:34:50   this is going to take a while.

00:34:54   What I use Plex for is a front end to any sort of video media that I have.

00:34:59   So that's TV shows, it's movies, it's a collection of music videos that I tend to like to watch

00:35:04   from time to time, it's concerts that I have.

00:35:08   It is to some degree home movies, although I don't have a lot of those split out right

00:35:11   now.

00:35:13   But Plex is an unbelievable front end to basically any kind of media.

00:35:16   It does do music, although I don't think it's particularly fantastic.

00:35:23   It does do photos, which is okay, but to me video is where it's really at.

00:35:29   And what's great about Plex is if you can suffer through their very opinionated naming

00:35:35   structure and their very opinionated way of how they want you to name things, then it

00:35:43   will find all the metadata for your stuff automatically.

00:35:48   So if you name the file for the movie that you're trying to put into Plex, I don't know,

00:35:53   the rundown space, paren 2000 paren, or whatever the year it came out, it will go to, not IMDB,

00:36:01   but an equivalent thereof, and it will grab the poster, it'll grab the cast, it'll grab

00:36:08   all sorts of stuff.

00:36:09   And so the Apple TV app, as an example, is a really phenomenal front end.

00:36:15   The Plex Apple TV app is a really phenomenal front end to all your media.

00:36:18   What's also great about Plex is if it's being run on a machine that is even reasonably powerful,

00:36:25   it will transcode that media on the fly.

00:36:28   So say something fell off the back of a truck, and let's say for example it's an MKV, it's

00:36:33   a Matroska file.

00:36:36   That isn't something the Apple TV can natively pick up or read.

00:36:41   I'm sure someone will well actually me on this one, but let's just go with it for now.

00:36:45   So it can't read in MKV natively.

00:36:48   Plex is smart enough to see, "Oh, the client that's trying to play this is the Apple TV

00:36:53   or an iPhone or an iPad.

00:36:55   It really needs to be H.264, etc., etc.

00:36:58   So I will either repackage it so that it's being presented in an MP4 container, or I

00:37:04   will actually transcode the darn thing so it is H.264."

00:37:07   And it does it all on the fly, all transparently.

00:37:11   You don't have to think about it.

00:37:12   The other phenomenal thing about Plex is if you expose a couple of ports in your router,

00:37:17   you can access all of your data, all of your media remotely.

00:37:21   So as an example, when we were at the beach a few weeks ago, we wanted to listen to music

00:37:27   or put on a movie or what have you.

00:37:30   And what we would do is we would hook up my Fire TV stick.

00:37:35   It has a Plex client.

00:37:37   And we would connect to my Plex server at my house.

00:37:39   So we were in North Carolina, obviously the house is still in Richmond, and we would connect

00:37:43   to Plex and we would play our movies remotely from North Carolina, which is really awesome.

00:37:49   And then what's even greater, which people don't talk about that often, is if you have

00:37:55   really close friends that you're willing to share your media with, you can become Plex

00:37:59   Pals.

00:38:00   That's my word.

00:38:01   I just came up with that.

00:38:02   I really like it.

00:38:03   Plex Pals.

00:38:04   Bulk bag.

00:38:05   Anyway, so you can become friends on Plex.

00:38:07   And that means that you can stream from each other's libraries.

00:38:10   So as an example, all three of us are friends on Plex, and so if I ever wanted to watch

00:38:17   something that I don't have but Marco has or that Jon has, I can just go to their Plex

00:38:22   servers from my house and stream right off their servers.

00:38:27   And similarly, if Marco ever wants to watch Top Gear or The Grand Tour or what have you,

00:38:31   I mean, if I hypothetically had those on my Plex server, that is, then he can just stream

00:38:36   Direct for me and in fact if you're a PlexPass member and this is where the you would start having to pay for it

00:38:43   Actually, I think the iOS app might be paid but there's no recurring fees PlexPass does have a recurring fee

00:38:48   And if you are a PlexPass member you can actually download

00:38:52   This media onto your devices

00:38:54   So I can download stuff from my server onto my device if say I'm going on a plane or something like that

00:39:00   and then furthermore if I want to

00:39:03   I could

00:39:05   give Marco or John the ability to download from my server. So by default you can only stream,

00:39:10   but I can go and say, "No, Marco and John can download from me."

00:39:15   And I think I have actually, but anyway, Marco and John can download from me, and so they can download

00:39:19   my source files onto their devices. So it's a really good kind of omnivorous.

00:39:25   It will consume anything, it will spit it out in any way you need it.

00:39:29   It's on darn near every platform, and it's really, really great if you can suffer through

00:39:35   through naming your files in a particular way that makes Plex happy.

00:39:41   I don't find that way terribly egregious.

00:39:42   I know a lot of people that think it's absurd and completely unintelligible.

00:39:47   I have a couple of blog posts I've written about this in the past.

00:39:49   I'll put links in the show notes.

00:39:51   But it really isn't that bad.

00:39:53   For TV shows, you make a folder with the name of the TV show, The Grand Tour.

00:39:57   In there, you make a folder per season, season 01.

00:40:00   In there, it's the grandtor space hyphen space S01E01 dot whatever.

00:40:06   That's it.

00:40:07   That's the whole thing.

00:40:08   So it's really not that bad.

00:40:09   I've talked a lot.

00:40:11   Marco, John, thoughts?

00:40:13   I have none.

00:40:14   John?

00:40:15   Well, you kind of got it why you use Plex and how.

00:40:20   I mean, how do we use it to watch video, right?

00:40:23   So that's how we use it for, I'm pretty sure.

00:40:26   Yeah.

00:40:27   The only thing I have to add is like I have this video from all sorts of places like as

00:40:32   we've established on Pat shows I can't even remember all the subscription services I subscribe

00:40:37   to.

00:40:38   I think it's probably all of them at this point.

00:40:41   And I have a TiVo and the clients for all the streaming services are some of them are

00:40:46   on my television, some of them are on my TiVo, some of them are on Apple TV like they're

00:40:48   all over the place like in the PlayStation and everything else is hooked up to it.

00:40:54   So I don't have all my video in one place.

00:40:56   A lot of people use Plexad as their clearinghouse, but I don't.

00:41:00   I have plastic discs with a video on them of various kinds, Blu-rays and DVDs.

00:41:05   I have movies saved on my TiVo that are marked not to delete that it's just convenient to

00:41:09   watch them in that way.

00:41:11   And it really depends on -- I mean, it's kind of annoying, like, how do you know where your

00:41:16   thing is?

00:41:17   I just know because I put them all there, but like, the big fancy movies that I care

00:41:20   about, like, I just watched Blade Runner for when we did the Mike of the Movies Revisit

00:41:25   thing.

00:41:26   off my Blu-ray, the actual plastic disc, because that is the highest quality version of that

00:41:30   movie that I have and I wanted to see it in really nice quality.

00:41:33   Other movies that we play for the kids a lot, we have the plastic discs for them but I don't

00:41:39   want to take out the disc and I don't want them touching the discs and it's just a mess

00:41:42   and it takes a long time or whatever.

00:41:44   So we have a lot of those ripped and they're sitting on my flex server.

00:41:47   Why?

00:41:48   Because I didn't buy them on Apple TV, I bought like the Pixar, you know, Blu-ray, whatever,

00:41:53   right?

00:41:54   I don't care about the Blu-ray quality for when the kids are showing it.

00:41:57   So sometimes Blu-rays come with a digital copy, but if they don't, I will rip the Blu-ray

00:42:01   and re-encode it as smaller H.264 and put it on my Plex server, and so now they have

00:42:06   a way to watch a movie immediately.

00:42:10   I don't know how they keep track of where everything is, but eventually they just learn

00:42:12   like, "Hey, Moana's on the Plex, you don't have to get the disc, right?

00:42:15   Just play it from there."

00:42:17   And we do buy things on iTunes and they just keep track of, "Oh, the Hunger Games movies,

00:42:20   we bought those on iTunes, so if you want to watch those, they're there."

00:42:23   And kids are adaptable and they learn.

00:42:24   So I use it as just another place to hold video that's convenient to play from.

00:42:30   Because Plex is very convenient.

00:42:31   It looks nice.

00:42:32   Like Casey said, it will get the cover images.

00:42:34   You can change them if you don't like them, which I appreciate because I always pick alternate

00:42:36   covers.

00:42:37   You would.

00:42:38   Yeah.

00:42:39   And it's pretty good about matching up the metadata.

00:42:42   And it presents a nice interface.

00:42:43   And I have clients on lots of different places on iOS devices and on my television.

00:42:49   So that's why I use it.

00:42:52   That's why, despite all the things I already have in my life that I just listed, I found

00:42:57   room for one more thing, which is a convenient place to play video that's not on a plastic

00:43:04   disk or purchased in DRM encumbered from some other service.

00:43:07   Or streaming, obviously.

00:43:08   Or recorded from TV.

00:43:09   I have a lot of video in my house.

00:43:12   Yeah, and to be fair, I do have a bunch of plastic disks, but generally speaking I will

00:43:17   rip them.

00:43:18   in a lossy way, which I know offends Jon, but to me it's fine.

00:43:22   But I will go and buy the plastic disc and rip it so I don't have to worry about being

00:43:26   DRM encumbered.

00:43:27   I almost never buy anything video on iTunes because I want it to end up in Plex, and I

00:43:33   don't want it to be DRMed.

00:43:35   But I did kind of skip over the how, and we've talked about this I think semi-recently on

00:43:38   the show, but very, very briefly, all of my media is on the Synology, but the Plex server

00:43:44   software is on the iMac.

00:43:45   The iMac and the Synology are both on always.

00:43:48   And so the iMac looks at the Synology via network share and crunches all the media off

00:43:54   of that.

00:43:56   Synologies do run Plex natively.

00:43:58   There's been conflicting experiences even within the three of us, whether or not our

00:44:04   Synologies are fast enough, good enough, strong enough, quick enough, etc. to transcode things

00:44:09   on the fly.

00:44:11   In my experience, it very much was not, but I think the media that I was asking to transcode

00:44:15   was not already H.264. Now that I've been doing a very, very good job of curating what enters my

00:44:22   Plex server and making sure it is always transcoded to H.264 before Plex gets to it,

00:44:27   now I wonder if it wouldn't be so bad. But I haven't done any further tests since then.

00:44:31   You got to change the quality to original. Like, don't, like, the remote quality or whatever,

00:44:36   change it to, well, there's two qualities, local and remote. Change, at the very least,

00:44:39   change the local quality to original. Even on your iOS devices, I will tell it,

00:44:43   if it already is in the right codec do not attempt to down sample it to a lower resolution and that

00:44:49   will go a long way towards making your streaming from your plain old Synology work fine. I do the

00:44:54   same thing as Casey but I also have Flex running on my actual Synology pointing to the exact same

00:44:59   media. They have separate libraries which is a little bit annoying to keep in sync but I mostly

00:45:04   go from the Synology because my iMac isn't always awake it's my wife's computer sometimes it's asleep

00:45:09   and the Synology is, you know, far away and I don't have to know what I'm doing into it by streaming movies.

00:45:15   I don't hear it. It's in the basement.

00:45:17   That's my ideal. If it doesn't work on the Synology in the rare case, then I

00:45:21   tried from the iMac.

00:45:24   Yeah, the only problem with doing it original is if you have something that is truly big,

00:45:28   then

00:45:30   your downstream connection may not be able to handle it. So as an example,

00:45:35   Normally at the beach, we have truly terrible internet connections via Wi-Fi, and streaming

00:45:40   video is not the sort of thing you would want to do over tethering.

00:45:43   So a lot of times, including this past beach vacation where we had better Wi-Fi than we've

00:45:48   ever had, it was still too slow to get a lot of like 1080 stuff without any sort of downsampling

00:45:53   or anything like that.

00:45:54   So I agree with what you said in principle that, you know, doing it where it's just blindly

00:45:59   dumping stuff across the internet will make it a lot easier on the Synology, but that

00:46:03   may be overloading your internet connection if you're outside of the house. Within the

00:46:07   house, oh absolutely, you should be fine. Also, the chat room is asking, "Do I have

00:46:12   my Plex library backed up to CrashPlan?" Yes, I do. Yes, I understand, given last week's

00:46:17   discussion, that some of that is redundant, especially since I just said a lot of this

00:46:20   I have on Blu-ray. But I prefer it that way because to separate out what is redundant

00:46:25   and what isn't would be a nightmare. And also being asked in the chat room, "What do I use

00:46:30   to transcode every incoming file. Either Don Melton's video transcoding script is what I

00:46:36   typically use and if not I'm using FFmpeg and I'll put links to both of those in the chat or in the

00:46:43   show notes excuse me. Just to be clear Plex has separate preferences for when you're on a LAN

00:46:48   versus when you're on the internet. Oh you know that's true I forgot about that. Like I said set

00:46:51   your local connection to original because I have gigabit ethernet between all these devices like

00:46:55   wired nothing none of this is on wi-fi everything is wired so it's like no problem whatsoever.

00:46:59   and remote is where you have to pick what kind of quality downgrade you want.

00:47:03   But you can change that setting from the clients. You could say, "Let me try original."

00:47:06   Nope, not going to happen. Let me try transcoding and you know you keep downgrading it until you get it.

00:47:11   Yep, that's exactly what happened at the beach was I was like, "Oh yeah, we'll just use original."

00:47:15   Oh, that didn't work for beans. All right, well, let's try it slightly down.

00:47:19   I think, you know, let's crank it back but still keep it 1080. Oh, that didn't work.

00:47:22   All right, let's crank it back to 720. Oh, I think we're almost there.

00:47:26   let's crank it back to crappier 720. Ah okay there it is finally we've got it. And by the way within

00:47:31   the house like I said I don't have any devices that will play these things back at correct 24

00:47:35   frames per second cadence. You may have a different box that is able to do that but

00:47:39   you can do multi-channel audio like so if you have if you rip something rip it with 5.1 like

00:47:45   or I always make sure I rip it with 5.1 because it will stream the you know original quality which

00:47:50   obviously is a downgrade from what was on the blu-ray because I'm not doing 50 gig rips if I

00:47:55   I can help it. And it will also stream the multichannel audio as well, and that will

00:48:00   be the same as it was on the disk. So it makes for some pretty big files, but within the

00:48:04   house it is a perfectly acceptable way for the kids to watch movies so they don't have

00:48:08   to get a disk out.

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00:50:10   (upbeat music)

00:50:12   John, tell me about your work computing situation

00:50:17   because I hear it's just recently changed.

00:50:20   Yeah, so my 2009 Mac Pro that I've been using since 2009, it worked.

00:50:27   It was the first Mac our company ever bought.

00:50:31   And I'll be sad to see it go.

00:50:32   It's been a true, but it still works fine.

00:50:35   But I do now have a 2017 Mac Pro.

00:50:39   They got space gray.

00:50:40   I think they got space gray for everybody.

00:50:41   MacBook Pro, you mean?

00:50:42   Yeah, MacBook Pro, sorry.

00:50:44   Wishful thinking.

00:50:45   Small difference.

00:50:46   Anyway, yes, yes.

00:50:48   So now I have that and I know, you know, Marcos had 17 of them and Casey has one and you've

00:50:53   all are giving your impressions about all these things, but now I have one so I have

00:50:59   some actual hands-on impressions with it aside from my sadness of trying to retire my other

00:51:05   computer.

00:51:06   So first the computer itself, like no surprises I'd seen them in person or whatever, but actually

00:51:13   using one for real at work very quickly let me know in practical terms which things bother

00:51:23   me and which don't.

00:51:24   First the keyboard, you know, I've typed on a million times in the store.

00:51:27   I've even typed on 2017 ones with a different damping and stuff, right?

00:51:30   Like it's not a surprise, but again you do a day of work in it and it is different than

00:51:35   when you're in the store just playing.

00:51:37   I think I mostly like the keyboard.

00:51:40   All right.

00:51:42   I'm not sure if I would choose a desktop keyboard with this, but as far as laptop keyboards

00:51:46   go, it mostly agrees with me.

00:51:50   I like the fact that it is quieter.

00:51:53   I feel like I can type fairly efficiently on it.

00:51:56   If I have one complaint about the keyboard, it's that I think I may be pressing harder

00:52:01   than I need to, which is weird because the travel is so low, you'd think I'd be pressing

00:52:06   less hard, but I don't know.

00:52:08   I feel like I'm more gentle on the Apple aluminum extended

00:52:11   And I use the I use the keyboard for only a couple of days for reasons

00:52:16   I'll get into later before I switch back to my Apple extended aluminum

00:52:19   So obviously I don't want to use like that

00:52:21   Tiny cramped up keyboard without home and end and full-size arrow keys and all the other things that I hate about laptop keyboards, right?

00:52:27   I am using in clamshell mode by the way, I

00:52:30   Really like touch ID because my work computer I have to enter my password every single time

00:52:35   I come back to the desk every every single time and my password is long and complicated for stupid security reasons. I

00:52:41   Was like touch ID this will finally save me from it

00:52:44   But because I'm in clamshell mode I and I'm so good at typing my password that

00:52:48   It's faster for me to type my password than it is for me to open the case put my finger on touch ID and close

00:52:53   It touch ID is not as fast as on the phone, right?

00:52:56   The thing about the laptop as a laptop setting it aside, you know

00:53:01   Connecting it as my sort of clamshell desktop machine that I was very surprised at how I cannot handle is

00:53:08   The escape key in the touch bar. I cannot handle it in real life when I have to press that key

00:53:14   I just can't do it

00:53:16   Like I don't like I don't even like VI to begin with but the added insecurity of knowing

00:53:20   Did I actually go get out of it get into command mode?

00:53:24   Did I actually hit the escape keepers?

00:53:26   I have no way of knowing if I hit this I almost wish the computer beeped when I successfully hit the escape key because I

00:53:31   Just don't know I reach my finger up there to hit escape instinctively and I land on an unmoving slab of whatever that stuff is

00:53:37   Like plastic or glass or whatever. No, my whole body revolts. I cannot handle it

00:53:41   Just that one key and who hits escape. I apparently I had escaped all day long like whether it's you know

00:53:47   Escape X and Emacs or I'm stuck on a machine that has VI and I'm hitting escape. No, no, no

00:53:53   No, and like I'm just totally surprised because I went in the store

00:53:56   It's like oh, yeah

00:53:56   I can hit it now it activates fine like but when you're doing it for real like doing real work and you just

00:54:01   expect to be able to hit the escape key with your pinky or whatever and that thing is there,

00:54:05   I don't like it.

00:54:06   I do not like it at all.

00:54:09   As much as I love Touch ID, I would be with Marco in the MacBook escape camp, I need an

00:54:14   escape key.

00:54:15   Now, all the other keys in the touch bar, I could take or leave.

00:54:19   It bothers me a little bit that there's a thing with flashing lights under there, like

00:54:23   it's another screen kind of flashing on my face, but some of the more annoying things

00:54:25   you could turn off, like the auto suggestions as you're typing and crap like that, I could

00:54:29   mostly take or leave it. I think if I had the choice and they gave me one with regular keys,

00:54:35   I would leave it, even setting aside the escape thing. So not a touch bar fan, but the escape key

00:54:41   is my big evil thing. Haven't had a lot of accidental input. I don't mind the trackpad

00:54:45   any more than I mind other trackpads. I still, I think I'm getting worse at trackpads in my old age.

00:54:50   I've never been good with trackpads. I've always hated them. And now I think I'm getting worse,

00:54:54   especially with force touch because when I'm getting worse with the trackpad and I'm just

00:54:58   just like in the middle of a drag operation or some crap and I got to move

00:55:01   my fingers around I end up pushing too hard in it and going through to force

00:55:03   touch and then I just like disable it or in that application so force touch

00:55:07   doesn't mean anything anymore I don't like track pads but anyway I got

00:55:10   those things closed I'm not using it as a laptop if I can it'll help because I

00:55:14   don't like laptops so then I'm faced with a challenge of how I connect my 2009

00:55:19   peripherals right these are all you know well they're not all 2009 but the screen

00:55:25   is from 2009, came with the computer. It's a 24 inch LED Apple Cinema display. I think

00:55:31   it was their first LED backlit monitor. Yeah, it was one that looks just like the

00:55:36   Thunderbolt display and has a mini DisplayPort connector but is not actually a Thunderbolt.

00:55:40   It came out right before Thunderbolt came out.

00:55:42   Yep, and it was the first of that style. What I'm staring at right now is a 23 inch Apple

00:55:47   Cinema display which has a matte screen, had white on the side, it was aluminum with curved

00:55:51   things on it and was not LED backlit right so this was the one after that 24

00:55:56   inch LED backlit and it's many display port the this this display I got it with

00:56:04   my Mac I don't remember what I got I think it was my only real choice because

00:56:07   the Apple we were but his monitors it comes with a very very short cord that

00:56:13   goes out into like a three prong rat tail thing so it's like this little a

00:56:18   cord like the size of a power cord and then it splits into three separate

00:56:21   things one is magsafe I think it's magsafe one it is yeah which I've never

00:56:27   used and still can't use it just it's there being annoying and magnetic two is

00:56:32   the mini DisplayPort connector which as Marco said is actual mini DisplayPort

00:56:37   not Thunderbolt of any stripe whatsoever and the third cable coming out of there

00:56:41   is USB and the USB connects the monitors speakers microphone and camera that are

00:56:47   all built into the monitor. So that's my monitor and I want to keep using that monitor. The

00:56:53   reason I want to keep using that monitor is 24 inches. It's small, right? It's 1920 by

00:56:58   1200. The reason I want to keep using it, this was part of my plan, is because I hate

00:57:01   laptops and because I hate anyone to move my windows, I was going to take this 15 inch

00:57:06   MacBook Pro, put it into scaled resolution at 1920 by 1200 and put it into mirroring

00:57:11   mode. So when I open and close my laptop and disconnect it from the screen, nothing moves

00:57:16   because the resolution of my big screen is exactly the same as far as the computer is

00:57:19   concerned as the resolution of my small screen. Plus or minus the retina, right? But it handles

00:57:25   that. It figures it out, right? And that part works. But for that to work, I was faced with

00:57:31   the problem of how do I connect this thing I just described to my computer? And I also

00:57:37   have an Apple aluminum extended keyboard, which, you know, post dates 2009, whenever

00:57:42   that came out I got that. And I have an ancient USB mouse that I use at work. Right? My challenge

00:57:48   was how do you get all these things connected to your laptop? And I had I thought every

00:57:52   adapter that you could possibly need, but I was wrong. And also work gave me like this

00:57:56   little docking station thing. The docking station, I don't know what brand it is, but

00:57:59   it's a thing that plugs into the two Thunderbolt ports on the side, like it takes both of them

00:58:03   up. It's sturdy, like it goes in both ports, so it doesn't like twist or anything like

00:58:07   but then it hogs both ports and what it has on it is two USB-C, I think that both may

00:58:14   be PowerPaster or maybe just one of them is, two USB-A, an SD card, and HDMI. None of those

00:58:22   are helping me with my monitor and it would be hogging two ports so that's out the window,

00:58:25   I can't use that at all, or I didn't think I was going to be able to use that. So I have

00:58:29   a bunch of adapters. First thing I did was like, "Right, I do have USB to plug in, I

00:58:32   have USB from my keyboard and my mouse is plugged into my keyboard because my keyboard

00:58:36   serves as like a hub and the mouse is attached there, right?

00:58:39   So why don't I connect the keyboard, why don't I try this stupid docking station thing, plug

00:58:43   it in, use one of its two USB-A ports for my mouse and keyboard, use the second USB-A

00:58:48   port for my monitor.

00:58:49   But that doesn't work because the monitor rat tail can't reach the USB on that side

00:58:53   because the mini display port would have to be on the other side, so it doesn't physically

00:58:57   reach.

00:58:58   Then I plug my keyboard into the USB thing, I'll just use the mouse and keyboard.

00:59:01   Nothing.

00:59:02   Keyboard does not work, mouse does not move, nothing.

00:59:05   Tried it in the other port, took it in, took it out.

00:59:07   I was like, "Does this keyboard not work with a 2017 Mac Pro?"

00:59:12   I could not for the life of me figure it out.

00:59:15   Look, I Googled for it.

00:59:17   Some people think it's a bug.

00:59:19   Some people said, "Oh, you have to use an extension cable," which I have, which was

00:59:22   frustrating to find.

00:59:23   The answer is just use the extension cable that came with the thing.

00:59:25   And I'm using the extension cable, so I tried not using the extension cable.

00:59:27   It didn't make any difference, but that didn't work.

00:59:30   Monitor wise, I had to buy an adapter that is mini-displayport to Thunderbolt whatever

00:59:36   that has a power pass through so I don't have to hog the power port for that.

00:59:42   Then I have C to A connector on one side for the monitor's camera, speakers, and microphone.

00:59:51   And then on the other side I had a C to A connector for my keyboard.

00:59:55   The plain old straight through Apple C to A connector does work with my keyboard and

00:59:58   mouse 50% of the time.

01:00:00   Sometimes you plug it in, the keyboard doesn't work.

01:00:01   You just unplug it and plug it back in and that does work.

01:00:03   Very disconcerting.

01:00:05   The docking station is completely dead to me.

01:00:07   And then I had a USB-C to ethernet adapter,

01:00:11   which I need for a variety of gross reasons

01:00:14   to get files from my 2009 Mac Pro onto this laptop.

01:00:18   They're on separate networks.

01:00:20   They can't see each other's IP addresses at work at all.

01:00:23   So I had to disconnect them both from network

01:00:26   and then do an ethernet cable,

01:00:27   like a patch cable directly from the laptop

01:00:29   the computer and just communicate over self-assigned IP addresses to transfer the files, which

01:00:33   is fun.

01:00:34   Oh my god.

01:00:35   What is this, 2003?

01:00:37   They're on different networks.

01:00:39   It's a security thing.

01:00:40   Like, and the thing is, the networks, as far as I'm aware, the work, like the networks

01:00:44   are based on my MAC address, all caps MAC, you know, the medium access control address,

01:00:49   not the capital M lowercase AC address.

01:00:51   Not the MAC store!

01:00:52   Yes.

01:00:53   That's how it must be.

01:00:54   I assume this is the case, because how does it know to give my MAC Pro this IP?

01:00:58   It's gotta be, you know, "Oh, you come in the network, you recognize your MAC address,

01:01:00   I'm gonna put you on this network."

01:01:03   Right?

01:01:04   So I said, "Okay, well my MAC Pro has two Ethernet ports.

01:01:07   Surely they only entered the MAC address of one of them, like it has two separate interfaces."

01:01:11   But apparently they entered them both, so that didn't help me.

01:01:13   So yeah, my only way that these things communicate with each other in two ways.

01:01:17   One, I could put things in Dropbox, but we can't do that for security reasons because

01:01:20   we're not supposed to have any of our work files like outside of our network.

01:01:23   So I can't do that, and I wouldn't be able to do that anyway because I just have too

01:01:25   many damn files and they're too big and it would blow my Dropbox space.

01:01:29   I could have tried to use Google Drive for the work thing but I thought it would have

01:01:32   taken forever to upload and download.

01:01:33   So the picture I sent to Slack the other day was my laptop in clamshell mode with all these

01:01:40   adapters sticking out of it and I think it was basically all four ports filled up just

01:01:46   to be in the same state I was with essentially no, you know, with, well certainly with none

01:01:53   of the front ports filled on my Mac Pro because I just have a keyboard and a mouse and a monitor

01:01:58   and I'm using my computer and almost every port was filled depending on whether or not

01:02:02   I had the ethernet patch cable in to pull things from the other thing in there.

01:02:06   Which means every time I want to leave the desk I have to yank out all these cables carefully

01:02:09   and you know if I want to bring my laptop with me which I tend not to want to.

01:02:13   And then I did the thing where I wanted to play some music or something and I picked

01:02:18   up my headphones and put them on and I'm cranking the volume like "why is this not working?"

01:02:21   And then I heard sound coming out of some other place, like, "What?

01:02:23   It's not coming out of my…"

01:02:24   My headphones were still plugged into my Mac Pro.

01:02:25   And then I realized, "Oh, I have to plug my headphones into this stupid laptop now,

01:02:29   too."

01:02:30   So I had to snake the cable around and shove it into the little headphone port, which is

01:02:33   totally in the wrong place for my desk.

01:02:34   And I started thinking about casing his Bluetooth headphones and how I don't want to have yet

01:02:38   another cable that I need to plug and unplug from my stupid laptop.

01:02:42   But anyway, that's my not-too-brief impressions of my 2017 MacBook Pro.

01:02:49   have much to add other than I can't handle the escape key and laptop plus dongles does

01:02:56   not make a desktop computer user happy, especially one with eight-year-old peripherals, which

01:03:00   is mostly my fault, but I didn't have an option to get a laptop, so it kind of works well

01:03:05   too, or option to get a desktop.

01:03:08   So there you have it.

01:03:10   Before you get a billion emails, are you looking to upgrade your peripherals or try newer peripherals?

01:03:18   Can you try Bluetooth for keyboard and mouse, for example?

01:03:21   I know you have like a 30-year-old mouse, but are there no other keyboards and/or mice

01:03:26   that you're willing to entertain that are perhaps Bluetooth?

01:03:29   I thought about getting the new wireless one with the key switches you like, you know,

01:03:32   the Apple extended wireless thing.

01:03:34   I thought about that, but then I said, "Well, then where am I going to connect my mouse?"

01:03:37   Right?

01:03:38   And basically, I have to get USB-A into this computer somehow.

01:03:41   And I guess I could get a Bluetooth mouse too eventually, but it's like, how much money

01:03:44   am I spending here, or how much of my desk budget do I have left to buy peripherals that

01:03:50   replacing perfectly good working peripherals.

01:03:53   And I like my mouse, and I like my keyboard.

01:03:56   And I'm pretty sure I would like the one with the keyswitches you'd like too.

01:03:59   I'm pretty sure I would like that.

01:04:00   It's got full-size function keys on it instead of the half-size things.

01:04:02   I think I would like that keyboard.

01:04:04   But it's serving as the USB connection point for my mouse, which means I don't have a mouse

01:04:09   cord that's dangling all over the place.

01:04:11   I know Corded My Search, so, you know, weird for people,

01:04:14   but remember, I'm the person who searched eBay

01:04:16   to buy this exact, like 1990s model.

01:04:20   It's like the Logitech USB wheel mouse is the name of it.

01:04:22   It's before they started adding letters and numbers.

01:04:24   It's not like the MX anything or the G anything.

01:04:27   It is just Logitech USB wheel mouse.

01:04:29   It is really, really old, and when my work one died,

01:04:32   I went on eBay and found another one.

01:04:33   So I really like my mouse.

01:04:34   I don't wanna change it.

01:04:36   My mouse needs to connect to my keyboard.

01:04:37   Bluetooth keyboards don't have a place to connect USB,

01:04:40   So it's all one big chain that leads back to me having crap plugged into the thing.

01:04:43   As for monitors, I have a 27-inch Thunderbolt display at home, and I do have a Thunderbolt

01:04:48   3-2 adapter that would let me use it with my laptop, but I can't match a screen res

01:04:52   and I can't handle my windows moving, so I don't think I'm going to do that.

01:04:56   So much of this you're doing.

01:04:57   Can we just put it on record that, okay, yes, being in dongle town totally sucks.

01:05:01   I totally get that it totally sucks.

01:05:03   But so much of this you're doing to yourself.

01:05:05   By insisting on using an ancient mouse, you're kind of doing this to yourself.

01:05:08   by being unwilling to have your windows ever move on you.

01:05:11   You're doing it to yourself.

01:05:12   I'm not saying that's unreasonable.

01:05:14   - Who wants their windows to move?

01:05:15   Who wants that?

01:05:16   Nobody likes that.

01:05:17   - Who cares?

01:05:18   Or run some stuff full screen.

01:05:20   If you didn't have 85 tiles on your one desktop,

01:05:24   this is why you need to embrace spaces.

01:05:25   - Full screen, come on, come on.

01:05:28   So I can have one window at a time, that's great.

01:05:31   No, I--

01:05:31   - Oh, you can have two.

01:05:33   - You know about my windows.

01:05:34   I need to have them, they need to be arranged.

01:05:36   I don't want them to move.

01:05:38   Now the possible solution is never let my laptop

01:05:43   leave my desk.

01:05:44   And I may come to that because the 27 inch screen

01:05:46   is bigger and nicer than what I have.

01:05:47   And it would mean fewer and less crazy dongles, right?

01:05:51   'Cause I can go from two dongles to one

01:05:53   because right now I have two dongles just for the monitor.

01:05:55   And one of the dongles is the crazy thing

01:05:57   with the power pass through, right?

01:05:58   So I could switch to one very simple dongle

01:06:01   because the Thunderbolt display does the camera

01:06:04   and the microphone and the speakers

01:06:07   through the one adapter. So I'm tempted to do that just to have a bigger screen at work and also to

01:06:13   have fewer dongles. And I may bite that bullet, but if I do that I'm just never going to open the lid

01:06:18   of that laptop. Which means I'll never get to use touch id, which is sad, or I won't use it in mirror

01:06:23   mode. I'll just use it in dual screen mode and just find something to do with that other screen

01:06:26   or whatever. But I don't know. I'm still mulling it over. This is just week one with the new computer.

01:06:32   Thought it would feel like super duper faster than my old one, and I guess it does

01:06:37   2009 Mac Pro is still a champ obviously I upgraded with an SSD long ago, right?

01:06:42   And that made it tolerable and not you know disgusting right?

01:06:47   But still it's still a champ

01:06:49   I switched back to it today earlier

01:06:50   And I was like because I have essentially perfectly cloned the setup

01:06:55   Down to the position of all the windows the desktop background the order of the items in the dock all the software that's running on

01:07:00   It you know in my way that I do

01:07:02   Unplugging mini display port from one and plug it into another it was like like manual KVM

01:07:08   And I was like what I know if someone switched this on me and didn't tell me

01:07:11   Would I notice that I'm using the 2009 Mac Pro instead of the MacBook Pro?

01:07:15   maybe

01:07:17   But it's still pretty good. It's still it's such a good computer

01:07:21   So why'd why move on then if you don't absolutely have to move on to the Mac cuz I first of all I fear this

01:07:27   thing dying and

01:07:29   Second of all, I like I do want to have a faster computer and nicer things

01:07:34   And I thought I wanted to have retina until I realized I'm not gonna be looking at the screen

01:07:37   So it doesn't matter and it's just it's just more it's been eight years. I think every eight years

01:07:41   It's okay to get a new computer at work. Can I get widespread agreement on that?

01:07:44   Right time to do our I think our replacement interval is 18 months or some some absurdly short thing

01:07:51   And I remember hearing a couple years ago. It's like if your computer is older than how many months you can get a new one

01:07:57   So anyway, I made it eight years. It's still on my desk officially

01:08:00   It doesn't I'm not gonna stop the clock until it leaves my desk and that will be a sad day when I have to call

01:08:05   The IT people and say please come table

01:08:07   Take away the computer that is listed in your inventory system as a Mac mini because you have no idea what Macs are

01:08:12   It is listed as if someone came to my desk at some point in the inventory system and said

01:08:19   This is a Mac mini and that's what they wrote like they had to see it in person to write that down because if they

01:08:24   Were taking the information programmatically they would have got the correct

01:08:27   Model on it so I will enjoy seeing them come to retrieve my Mac Mini and then learn how painful it is to carry a 50

01:08:33   Pound block of metal with sharp edged handles quote-unquote handles on the top of it

01:08:37   Hey, so for the record listeners if you have not heard ATP number 96

01:08:44   Which is entitled the windows of, Syracuse County

01:08:46   Marco and I think John begrudgingly and myself

01:08:50   Allowed for that episode to be tight to use the of, Syracuse County title

01:08:55   which is something that we swore we would never allow.

01:08:58   And we allowed it in this episode

01:09:00   because I will only speak for myself in saying

01:09:02   I am pretty sure that is my favorite episode

01:09:04   that we have ever recorded of ATP.

01:09:06   And the discussion about John's window management,

01:09:10   I was literally in tears laughing so hard

01:09:14   at how absurd John's window management

01:09:16   quote unquote setup is.

01:09:19   - And by absurd you mean the one true way of course.

01:09:21   - Yeah, and management I think is a loose term.

01:09:24   - Yes. - Oh, it's management.

01:09:26   I'm managing the hell out of those windows.

01:09:29   (laughing)

01:09:30   I mean, you don't do everything full screen, right, Casey?

01:09:33   Like, do you have--

01:09:34   - No, I don't, no, I don't.

01:09:35   - So do you get annoyed by the screen flippy, switchy,

01:09:39   gathering together crap when you unplug?

01:09:42   - As both friends and co-hosts,

01:09:44   it is my obligation to make merciless fun of you for this.

01:09:47   However, if I take off that hat

01:09:50   and just be honest with you,

01:09:52   Yeah, it does bother me, but it doesn't drive me nuts.

01:09:56   And to be honest with you, when I'm going to a meeting and bringing in the laptop, it's

01:10:01   typical that I'm doing something in one of the apps that's either half-screen.

01:10:06   So in the, I don't remember when this started, but in Mac OS you can either do one window

01:10:12   full screen or you can do two tiled side-by-side.

01:10:16   So they're not full screen, but they're in that full screen mode, if that makes any sense.

01:10:20   So in any case, typically if I'm in a meeting, I'm going to be looking at Slack, which I

01:10:25   happen to have sharing full screen mode with messages.

01:10:29   Or I'm using Google Chrome because that's my work email.

01:10:34   We're all in on Google Apps at work.

01:10:35   So I use Chrome as like my work quarantine where Gmail and Google Calendar and all that

01:10:42   jazz is.

01:10:43   And so if I'm in a meeting, I'm typically working with one of those windows, which is

01:10:46   in that full screen mode.

01:10:47   If I'm at my desk, I'm usually writing code.

01:10:49   And that is a combination of Xcode, taking up most of the screen, a terminal window in

01:10:55   the upper right, and managed so that it's just so, just like John.

01:11:00   And then the iOS simulator in the bottom right, again, managed so that it's just so.

01:11:06   And that screen, that virtual desktop, absolutely gets rejiggered every time I unplug and reopen

01:11:12   the computer.

01:11:13   But it takes me all of three seconds to get it back to where it is.

01:11:15   So it annoys me, but it doesn't bother me.

01:11:18   It's usually only got three windows to arrange.

01:11:21   It's annoying to rearrange three windows.

01:11:22   Now imagine that you had 30.

01:11:24   It gets way more annoying.

01:11:25   And at a certain point, you're not going to put 30 windows back.

01:11:27   And you're just going to surrender to the--

01:11:30   The problem, John, definitely isn't the 30 windows.

01:11:32   Definitely not the problem.

01:11:33   No, I got 30 things to do.

01:11:35   You can use more than one desktop, John.

01:11:37   And I'm pretty sure you're not doing 30 things at once.

01:11:38   No, I don't use multiple desktops.

01:11:40   That's where I partly--

01:11:41   That's the problem.

01:11:41   No, it's not the problem.

01:11:42   It's a solution.

01:11:43   I hate multiple desktops.

01:11:44   I hate multiple desktops.

01:11:46   I hate spaces.

01:11:47   I love that we're talking about this an hour into the show, the week before the iPhone.

01:11:53   As foretold by the tweet of somebody earlier in the day. Well, I think they used two hours,

01:11:57   but we'll allow for exaggeration. Yeah, I mean, and I will say one quick thought.

01:12:04   I bet you will. Yeah, I'm sure this will be quick. Really quickly, though, Marco, do you

01:12:10   believe in multiple spaces, or are you a one-space-only kind of guy?

01:12:14   - No, I tried Spaces briefly and I even for a long time,

01:12:18   I did multiple monitors instead of doing Spaces.

01:12:20   I figured like now here's just two physical Spaces.

01:12:23   And I've come to know that I'm a one large monitor

01:12:28   and one space kind of person.

01:12:30   - Oh, you monsters. - That's the way to go.

01:12:32   - You monsters.

01:12:33   - Just wait until he gets one 8K display,

01:12:35   then he'll be living large.

01:12:37   - I know, well, yeah, I have predictions about that,

01:12:40   probably for the Mac Pro next year, anyway.

01:12:42   - Well, so go ahead with your quick thought.

01:12:44   - My very quick thought about the toggle town.

01:12:48   - Tick tock, tick tock, tick tock, tick tock, tick tock.

01:12:50   - Of the 2017 inch MacBook Pro, or 2017 MacBook Pros.

01:12:55   So my summer of using the MacBook Pro

01:12:59   as my primary computer has concluded,

01:13:01   and using it in clamshell mode with the LG 5K,

01:13:06   doing all my regular work.

01:13:07   If you can get over the keyboard, which I can't,

01:13:09   but if you can get over the keyboard,

01:13:11   and you can get over the touch bars,

01:13:13   just kind of floppiness in the way that it is a flop,

01:13:17   and not that it is flexible.

01:13:19   If you can get over all that,

01:13:21   the ports still really irritate me,

01:13:24   and not just in the way that,

01:13:26   "Oh no, I have to buy dongles."

01:13:27   That's kind of a secondary concern.

01:13:30   The biggest problem for me in using this computer

01:13:33   is that the USB-C ecosystem

01:13:35   still can't produce reliable hardware.

01:13:38   Like, there isn't a lot of it.

01:13:40   The hardware that's out there is weird and limited,

01:13:42   and it's just not reliable.

01:13:44   So thank God I had four ports on this,

01:13:47   because one of them's going to the monitor,

01:13:49   one of them had to be my Ethernet adapter,

01:13:52   which is the Apple Ethernet adapter,

01:13:54   which is actually made by Belkin,

01:13:55   but it's the one Apple officially sells,

01:13:57   it's the only one they sell.

01:13:59   It would drop packets if it was plugged into

01:14:01   the Thunderbolt display, or any hub of any kind.

01:14:04   So you have to plug that into one of the four ports

01:14:06   that you have if you're lucky.

01:14:08   If you're unlucky, you might only have two of them,

01:14:09   or one of them.

01:14:10   So you have to plug the ethernet cable

01:14:13   or the ethernet adapter into one of the four on the computer.

01:14:17   I also had problems with my keyboard.

01:14:20   I don't know if John had the same problem.

01:14:22   I don't know if this is a keyboard thing,

01:14:23   but my keyboard USB adapter,

01:14:25   the little wireless receiver for the Microsoft Sculpt,

01:14:28   it would only work reliably when plugged into

01:14:31   one of the ports on the computer

01:14:32   through Apple's USB A to C adapter.

01:14:36   it would not work reliably in any other place in this setup,

01:14:40   either in another USB A to C kind of hub or splitter thing,

01:14:44   or directly into the LG 5K's ports on the back of it.

01:14:48   So that's now two things that require to be plugged in

01:14:52   to the ports on the computer.

01:14:53   Plus, the 5K monitor itself, that's number three,

01:14:57   which has left me only one port on the computer

01:15:00   that could be used for high reliability needs devices.

01:15:04   Now in my case, I considered my audio interface

01:15:06   one of those when podcasting,

01:15:08   'cause the last thing I want is to have weird stuff

01:15:09   happen to a USB device while I'm using it to record a show.

01:15:13   So that goes into the fourth one, I'm full, that's it.

01:15:17   And they were, it just, the USB-C ecosystem is so crappy,

01:15:22   and Apple is so insistent on relying on it heavily,

01:15:26   that what we have here is that even on the highest

01:15:28   end computers, you have now a port situation

01:15:31   that is way less flexible and way less reliable

01:15:35   than what we had before.

01:15:36   You know, the USB-C way, the USB-C promise,

01:15:40   is that you have these ports that are versatile

01:15:42   that can do anything, and that's a great idea.

01:15:45   I hope we get there someday, but we're so far from it now.

01:15:49   And USB-C is not that new anymore,

01:15:52   and I'm starting to wonder, you know,

01:15:54   will we ever get there?

01:15:55   And in the meantime, what are we supposed to do

01:15:57   with these pro computers that are just increasingly

01:16:00   difficult to use in pro contexts. You know what pros need? They need reliable hardware.

01:16:07   They need reliable ports and as many of them as you can give them. That's what pros actually

01:16:12   need. We have unreliable keyboards. We have unreliable ports. We have unreliable peripherals,

01:16:17   unreliable dongles. Good luck. If you ever want to have an HDMI output, read the reviews

01:16:23   of every HDMI adapter out there for USB-C, it's a disaster zone. And you know, video

01:16:30   out is not an uncommon thing. This entire ecosystem is really crappy. And it is totally

01:16:38   not sufficient enough, not reliable enough, and unbefitting of the pro name to rely solely

01:16:44   on this ecosystem of crap hardware plugged into this way fewer ports than we had before

01:16:49   on these laptops.

01:16:51   And the only ways I can see Apple really meaningfully

01:16:53   helping the situation are either give us our ports back,

01:16:56   which will never happen,

01:16:58   or actually make high quality USB-C dongles and hubs

01:17:03   and adapters and docking stations and everything else,

01:17:05   'cause no one else obviously is or can.

01:17:08   So Apple shipped that weird hub that Tipster rumored

01:17:12   for us forever ago.

01:17:13   - Oh, here we go.

01:17:14   - Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

01:17:16   The foundational ATV Tipster rumor, we made fun of it,

01:17:18   but now we're begging for the hub, aren't we?

01:17:20   We're begging for it.

01:17:21   - Yes, 'cause look, you can't rely on the rest of the,

01:17:25   it's just like the monitors.

01:17:26   Apple tried to rely on third parties to make good monitors.

01:17:30   LG tried, it sucks.

01:17:32   So Apple's getting back into the game

01:17:33   because they realized, or they saw,

01:17:35   that the third party world just didn't

01:17:38   and seemingly couldn't deliver.

01:17:40   Deliver on USB-C hubs,

01:17:41   because that's what all of your pro users

01:17:44   buying these pro laptops actually need.

01:17:46   We need reliable, useful, many ported USB hubs.

01:17:50   And those don't exist right now in USB-C.

01:17:55   So please, for the love of God, Apple, fix this problem

01:17:58   because it makes it very, very hard to use your laptops

01:18:02   the way you market them to be used if things aren't reliable.

01:18:06   - My adorable work's great.

01:18:10   It's out of my Bluetooth accessories.

01:18:11   I just wanted to let you know.

01:18:13   - Yeah, but you also, like your iMac was turning itself off

01:18:16   intermittently for like three months before you told us about it and you're

01:18:19   like it's not a big deal. Well actually to that end to that end I meant to

01:18:23   mention that the the infinitesimally small or infinitely small piece of dust

01:18:28   that has been migrating around my adorable keyboard definitely made its

01:18:32   way under the spacebar briefly until I blew it out with some compressed air.

01:18:35   So who uses the spacebar? I don't think you blew it out. You're gonna stop saying that you blew it out. You're just

01:18:39   moving it around in there it seems like. Yeah exactly, well that's true that's true.

01:18:43   You love this keyboard though, it's great, right?

01:18:45   No, I do. I know you're being silly, but also serious.

01:18:48   I do love the keyboard, but I will absolutely concede after a few months use that it is not tolerant enough to having any sort of dust getting under--

01:18:58   I'm assuming that's what the problem was, but any sort of debris getting under the keys.

01:19:03   I do love it in every other way. I still prefer the Magic Keyboard ever so slightly, but that's the current gen external keyboards.

01:19:11   But I do love this keyboard, but it is not tolerant enough of the real world.

01:19:16   And as much as I'm poking fun at you guys for not liking your MacBook Pros,

01:19:20   I think part of the reason I love my Adorable so much and can suffer through it having only one port

01:19:24   is because it's an accessory computer, which is a totally ridiculous thing to say, but it's the truth.

01:19:29   If I really want to get something done, I either have my work, you know, pre-USB-C MacBook Pro,

01:19:36   or I have my iMac and I don't have port issues on either of those computers.

01:19:41   And although the USB-C peripherals that I've bought have been perfectly fine,

01:19:47   I'm not in a position where I'm relying them for my livelihood like you guys are.

01:19:53   So as much as I'm joking and poking fun, it's really not an apples-to-apples comparison.

01:19:58   It's not fair of me.

01:19:59   I think Marco and I have the same problem in that to varying degrees,

01:20:03   we are attempting to connect quote-unquote legacy peripherals to a modern computer like Marco has his weird Microsoft keyboard

01:20:10   Which doesn't is not Bluetooth and doesn't know anything about USB C and I have my weird ancient

01:20:16   Discontinued mere months ago Apple extended aluminum keyboard which used to be the most modern extended keyboard

01:20:24   They sold until they changed to the Bluetooth one and I have my totally

01:20:27   Ancient USB C Belkin Ethernet adapter sold on Apple stores as of last year. Yeah

01:20:31   Yeah, that's a separate thing.

01:20:34   Ethernet is legacy.

01:20:36   Everything is wireless now.

01:20:37   But yeah, the keyboard thing just really blew me away.

01:20:38   Because you just assume, like keyboard and mice,

01:20:40   they are the most boring peripherals.

01:20:43   How could they not work?

01:20:44   If anything is going to work connected

01:20:46   to any kind of adapter that makes a USB,

01:20:49   surely the keyboard will.

01:20:50   That's not a demanding application.

01:20:52   And you said you had reliability problems with it.

01:20:55   As far as I'm able to tell, it never works with that adapter.

01:20:59   so there's there's this that you know the dock thing that had the plugs into both the ports that has two USB a ports on

01:21:04   It and the keyboard plugged in with or without an extension cable on both sides of thing plug it unplugged 50 times

01:21:10   Just nothing just like there was nothing there and even the mini DisplayPort adapter if I unplug it and plug it back in

01:21:17   Very often it won't work and I will have to unplug them in DisplayPort from the adapter

01:21:22   Unplug the power from the adapter plug them both back in and then plug the thing back in to get it to just I don't

01:21:27   I don't even that's some weird off-brand thing

01:21:29   But I agree that the ecosystem is bad.

01:21:31   If we use Bluetooth everything and had modern peripherals,

01:21:34   things would be better,

01:21:35   but that doesn't help with the ethernet situation

01:21:37   and the lack of hubs.

01:21:38   So not looking great,

01:21:41   but I'm sure my new Mac Pro will solve all these problems.

01:21:44   - Oh my God.

01:21:44   You know, to be fair, I would argue,

01:21:47   just to play devil's advocate,

01:21:49   that I would argue that ethernet is also legacy.

01:21:51   Like just ethernet as a thing.

01:21:54   Hold on, hold on.

01:21:55   I absolutely love ethernet.

01:21:56   I have pretty much all of my devices on Ethernet. I'm playing devil's advocate here, but the

01:22:02   future, hypothetically, is wireless. And just a few weeks ago, I was transferring something

01:22:07   mammoth between computers. I forget exactly what it was, but I was reminded how much faster

01:22:14   Ethernet is than any wireless I've ever used. And I completely agree with you guys that

01:22:20   given the choice Ethernet all day, every day. But you could argue, you could make the argument

01:22:25   that just the fact that you want to plug in Ethernet is just as legacy as using a USB-A keyboard.

01:22:29   Yeah, reliability is legacy.

01:22:31   Well, the USB—I'll give you this—the Ethernet connector is ridiculous, right? RJ45 or whatever

01:22:37   the hell that thing is, that is ridiculous, and that is totally a legacy connector, which is why

01:22:40   it's not on computers anymore, unless they're giant desktops in which case you'd still be there.

01:22:44   And also, modern wireless standards are faster than gigabit Ethernet. They have faster than

01:22:48   gigabit wireless things. They don't have faster than 10 gigabit because you have 10 gig Ethernet

01:22:54   on super fancy enterprise hardware.

01:22:56   And of course, the new Mac Pro will have 10 gig ethernet,

01:22:58   'cause why wouldn't it?

01:22:59   With the 8K display, you'll have five 10K ethernet ports.

01:23:03   - The iMac Pro has it.

01:23:04   - Seven USB 3.1 ports with A connectors.

01:23:07   Boy, this fantasy Mac Pro is looking better all the time.

01:23:10   (laughing)

01:23:11   - Wow.

01:23:12   - Like that mock-up that guy made,

01:23:13   remember like six months ago?

01:23:14   With like, it just had like 15,000 ports on the back of it.

01:23:17   - Right.

01:23:18   It's got an ADB port in case we're gonna hook up,

01:23:21   an ADB port in case,

01:23:22   So, Grubber can hook up his Apple Extended too without an adapter.

01:23:29   We are sponsored this week by Betterment.

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01:24:42   That's Betterment.com/ATP.

01:24:44   Betterment.

01:24:46   Rethink what your money can do.

01:24:51   There's an event next week, but before we talk about what we hope and want to see an

01:24:57   hour and a half on the show for the event, let's talk about Marco's self-described crazy

01:25:04   topic idea.

01:25:05   And if I'm reading this right, I actually think this is a really good idea.

01:25:08   So tell me, Marco, what's going on?

01:25:10   So I kind of felt like this would be a good time.

01:25:13   It's always hard to know, like, after the event to objectively look back on the phones

01:25:18   we've had for the last year and to really judge them or to know, like, to look back

01:25:23   and say, you know, what did we really need versus what was delivered by the new phone.

01:25:28   And so I kind of wanted to have what I'm calling here the iPhone 7 exit interview. And I know

01:25:33   you think I've never had a job before, but I actually have done a couple of exit interviews

01:25:37   because one thing I'm good at is leaving jobs.

01:25:39   I was just thinking to myself, does he really know what this is? I'll just let it go and

01:25:44   then sure enough, he'll run down.

01:25:45   - And many of them.

01:25:46   (laughs)

01:25:47   So basically I wanted to kind of like,

01:25:49   you know, looking back now at the iPhone 7,

01:25:52   that it is a year old, how has it been for us?

01:25:56   What are things that we were concerned about

01:25:57   that ended up not being a problem?

01:25:59   And what do we really want from the next phone

01:26:02   to solve shortcomings or things that we would like

01:26:05   to be improved in the iPhone 7?

01:26:06   - I wish I had prepared more for this,

01:26:10   because I saw you adding this like 20 minutes ago

01:26:14   the show notes but I really like this topic. I think this is a really great idea and off the top

01:26:19   my head just some immediate ideas. I think, well let me remind everyone I have an iPhone 7. I do

01:26:26   not have the plus because I am not a giant. I do not have the jet black model and because of that

01:26:34   I feel like I don't care for the fact that this thing is still one of the most slippery devices

01:26:41   I've ever held in my entire life. However, it is visually, aesthetically, one of my favorite

01:26:49   looking devices. I have the matte black, and I think this color is just beautiful. And

01:26:55   I love the way it looks. I wish it was tackier, stickier is maybe not the right word for it,

01:27:02   but I wish it had that feel and that grip of the jet black. But I love the way this

01:27:10   thing looks, with the exception of the camera bump.

01:27:12   I like the fact that they embraced the camera bump this time, rather than in the 6s, and

01:27:18   maybe the 6s as well, where it was kind of like a piece of metal that was not part of

01:27:23   the case.

01:27:24   This feels to be a part of the aluminum was kind of blown out to make the camera bump.

01:27:32   I don't care for the camera bump, I really wish that would go away.

01:27:35   I think the battery life on the 7 has gotten to the point that it is no longer frustrating

01:27:40   on a regular basis.

01:27:42   If I go to WWDC or something like that, where I'm on my phone constantly, I'm fighting thousands

01:27:47   of other people for cell coverage, then I will need a battery pack or something like

01:27:54   that.

01:27:55   But for my use anyway, day to day, I think this battery is fine.

01:27:58   I am sure there is a listener, and it might be you, listening to this right now, saying,

01:28:02   "Oh my gosh, Casey is crazy.

01:28:04   This battery is nowhere near fine.

01:28:06   And for you, that very well may be true.

01:28:08   But for me, this is the first phone that it's very rare that I end the day concerned with

01:28:14   how low my battery is.

01:28:16   So I do very much approve of the battery life.

01:28:20   I still want for more.

01:28:21   I wish I had an additional 20 to 50 percent more than I do at the end of the day.

01:28:27   But because thin trumps everything with Apple, I don't expect to have that.

01:28:31   for all I know it might even get worse with this new phone with its even bigger display.

01:28:37   The lack of headphone jack doesn't bother me because I am freaking in love with my AirPods.

01:28:43   There's been like twice that I've really needed to plug something into this and I think both

01:28:47   times I had the little adapter thing with me, unlike John on his flight to London.

01:28:52   But overall, I think this is a damn good phone.

01:28:55   It doesn't mean it can't be improved, but I do think this is a really, really, really

01:29:01   good phone and I'm really really happy with it. And that said it's about to be ruined

01:29:05   when Apple tells me about the new phone and this is going to be an utter piece of garbage

01:29:09   which is exactly why we're doing this today like Marco said instead of in a week from

01:29:13   now. John?

01:29:15   I think when we were listening like our maybe the end of last year like our favorite Apple

01:29:19   products I think I listed my iPhone 7. I've got the JetBlue Black iPhone 7 in the Apple

01:29:24   leather case and I said I liked it then and I really like it now. This is by far my favorite

01:29:29   iPhone I've ever phone which is not not saying much because I've owned two iPhones I had

01:29:32   a six and now I have a seven so I do not have a long history of phones but I like this better

01:29:38   than any of my touches I feel like because like so even just in the moment like I'm you

01:29:45   know adjusting for you know obviously it's better than now but even like back when I

01:29:49   got them because I think as I think I said on a past show the non moving home button

01:29:53   I have become a super fan of now just as they're gonna ditch it of course right yeah I love

01:29:58   it. The leather case which I lasted like you know 24 hours with it and not in a case and I couldn't

01:30:03   handle it so I bought the leather case. The leather case is so much better than my iPhone 6 other case

01:30:07   it's just the Apple leather case, black Apple leather case. I love the volume controls on it.

01:30:12   I'm good enough now that I can hit the volume controls when my phone isn't in my front in my

01:30:15   front or in my back pocket. Why do I have to do that? Because the damn AirPods don't have volume

01:30:19   control on it. So I've learned this skill but they're very reliable, they feel good, I can find

01:30:24   them. It has not steered me wrong. Battery life is sufficient for my needs, more than

01:30:31   sufficient for my needs. Even the WWDC I feel like it's okay. I would probably go with the

01:30:37   silly hump battery pack if I had, you know, if I did a WWDC like thing more often, but

01:30:42   I don't so it's fine the way it is. I like the fact that it's grippy, it's been very

01:30:46   reliable, it's felt fast the whole time. The lack of a headphone port burned me twice maybe,

01:30:53   once in a big way on a six hour flight to the UK and once in a small way where I just

01:31:00   you know couldn't listen to something when I wanted to.

01:31:03   But in the end it was not a big deal in my life.

01:31:06   Like it doesn't, day to day it doesn't bother me.

01:31:09   I have not encountered situations where I wanted to use headphones and also charge because

01:31:13   I'm in the post AirPod age now and I super duper love my AirPods.

01:31:16   Maybe the AirPods help cover for the lack of headphone jack but in the end even when

01:31:22   When I was using the wired ones, I thought it was multi-fined.

01:31:25   I think I would be more cranky about it if AirPods didn't exist, let's put it that way,

01:31:30   but it didn't bother me.

01:31:31   But yeah, I think it's been great.

01:31:33   I really like the product.

01:31:34   I like the camera.

01:31:35   I like the case.

01:31:36   I like how it fits into my life.

01:31:38   It is better than the 6.

01:31:39   All right, Marco.

01:31:40   Take us home.

01:31:41   Overall, I am way happier with the 7 than I expected to be at its launch.

01:31:48   that I thought would be a problem,

01:31:51   the home button being all weird,

01:31:53   like John, I thought it was weird

01:31:54   for like the first couple days,

01:31:55   and now I actually like it.

01:31:56   Like I actually have converted to it,

01:31:58   and now other home buttons feel inferior.

01:32:01   I don't know why, it doesn't make sense,

01:32:02   but that's how it is.

01:32:04   The jet black finish that we were all concerned

01:32:07   about all the scratches,

01:32:09   it turns out I never look at the back of my phone.

01:32:12   So while it is indeed all scratched up at the bottom,

01:32:15   you really only see it at like a certain angle

01:32:17   where the light reflects on the scratches anyway.

01:32:20   And it just is not a problem in real world use for me.

01:32:24   I just don't ever look at that.

01:32:26   And the JetBlack finish, because it is a little bit tacky,

01:32:29   like you were mentioning earlier, Casey,

01:32:31   it allows me to use this phone with no case,

01:32:34   with no grippy stickers or decals or vinyl wraps,

01:32:37   for the first time in the entire,

01:32:39   in this whole design era from the six forward

01:32:41   with the shape of phone.

01:32:43   It allows me to use it caseless,

01:32:44   and it has always been very secure in my hand.

01:32:47   I've never even come close to dropping it.

01:32:48   So I'm incredibly happy with the physical parts of it.

01:32:52   The size is great.

01:32:54   I would like the larger screen and better cameras

01:32:57   of the plus size, but ultimately the size of this

01:33:01   just works very, very well for me

01:33:02   of just the regular size seven.

01:33:04   So I'm very, very happy with that.

01:33:06   The camera is amazing.

01:33:08   Having the optical image stabilization

01:33:10   has made a huge difference, especially in video.

01:33:12   - Oh, good point, good point.

01:33:13   I mean, and this is one of the things that I really want

01:33:17   from the next iPhone,

01:33:20   hopefully we're gonna get that next week.

01:33:21   I saw a brief rumor about it, so we'll see,

01:33:23   but one thing I really want is for the video camera

01:33:26   to not make me choose between 4K and 60 frames per second.

01:33:29   I want to be able to shoot in 4K at 60 frames per second,

01:33:32   and that's a big ask.

01:33:35   If you look around the rest of the video camera world,

01:33:38   very few things shoot at 4K 60.

01:33:42   that is incredibly uncommon.

01:33:44   Even among very high-end video cameras,

01:33:47   that's still pretty uncommon.

01:33:49   But the iPhone, especially with the 7,

01:33:52   adding the stabilization and everything,

01:33:55   it has made it very clear to me in practical usage

01:33:59   that the iPhone is the best video camera in the world

01:34:02   for almost anything.

01:34:03   Obviously not if you're shooting professionally

01:34:06   for movies or TV or things like that,

01:34:09   but if you are just a regular person shooting video

01:34:12   for your family, yourself, even lower end creative projects,

01:34:17   I would say the iPhone camera as a video camera

01:34:22   is world class in practice.

01:34:25   It is incredibly easy to use.

01:34:28   You don't have to really worry too much about focus

01:34:30   or audio, both of which are massive pains in the butt

01:34:34   on a regular video camera, even good ones.

01:34:37   It's just really, really good as being a video camera

01:34:41   and it built in stabilization, that helps too,

01:34:43   everything else.

01:34:44   So, overall, I am very, very happy with camera,

01:34:48   with the physical form factor.

01:34:50   The battery has been pretty good for me,

01:34:53   better than I thought, and by far,

01:34:55   probably the best iPhone battery I've ever had.

01:34:59   Still not enough for me most of the time,

01:35:01   but I would say actually before the iOS 11 beta in June,

01:35:06   it was enough for me most days.

01:35:08   So ever since the beta, that has not been true anymore,

01:35:11   unfortunately, and that could just be weird beta weirdness,

01:35:13   but even now that we're at the very, very late beta stages

01:35:16   and the build we have now is probably the GM,

01:35:19   the battery still is not good enough,

01:35:20   but it's at least not that far off.

01:35:23   Like Casey, an extra 20 to 50% would probably do it for me.

01:35:28   Headphone jack, it was a real pain in the butt

01:35:31   when I was on an airplane.

01:35:33   Like Jon, airplanes I think are when

01:35:35   a lot of people hit that problem.

01:35:37   Or if there was a situation in which you listen

01:35:41   a lot while charging like at work or in various other places. Or like in cars if you use the

01:35:48   little plug adapters for it instead of a Bluetooth adapter, things like that. The only thing

01:35:52   out of those that really applied to me in my life was airplane usage, so on flights

01:35:57   I hated it. But I eventually have figured out Bluetooth headphones that aren't so bad

01:36:02   for planes so I switched to those begrudgingly giving up my awesome wired pair. For portable

01:36:09   walking use around town, I was already on Bluetooth,

01:36:11   so that didn't matter.

01:36:12   AirPods don't fit my ears, unfortunately,

01:36:14   but that solved the problem for a lot of other people,

01:36:16   although also not on planes,

01:36:18   'cause they just leave too much sound in

01:36:19   and you can't hear anything.

01:36:20   Anyway, so overall, pretty good.

01:36:23   One thing also that doesn't get a lot of attention

01:36:24   with the iPhone 7 that we might have already forgotten about

01:36:27   the speaker's got a lot better,

01:36:28   and it used the earpiece as a second speaker.

01:36:31   That helps a lot.

01:36:32   It helps especially when you're watching video on the phone,

01:36:35   you don't have to cup your hand around the bottom

01:36:36   to try to reflect the sound into your face,

01:36:38   like it's just coming out the front now

01:36:40   from the ear speaker, so that helped a lot

01:36:42   and it also just got louder when using it

01:36:44   like on a table or windowsill as a podcast speaker.

01:36:48   It gets louder for that, so speaker improvement

01:36:51   was a pretty major upgrade.

01:36:53   The one thing I'm hoping that we get with the new phones,

01:36:58   you know, we already are pretty sure

01:36:59   that we're gonna get big screen in a small body.

01:37:02   That's awesome and huge, and I'm willing to tolerate

01:37:06   a lot to get that, as I said last episode.

01:37:07   The camera is where I have a lot of these

01:37:10   wish list items still.

01:37:11   I mentioned earlier, 4K at 60 frames a second would be great.

01:37:14   I know artistically a lot of people don't like

01:37:16   60 frames per second, but I want that when capturing

01:37:19   family videos and to have more resolution would be nice.

01:37:22   So anyway, that's great.

01:37:25   I would also like to see on the camera front,

01:37:29   make it so that live photos, so that more of the frames

01:37:33   in a live photo are full quality than just the middle frame.

01:37:37   This is a similar problem to 4K60 in that it requires dumping a lot of data off the

01:37:43   camera sensor very quickly and that's usually hardware limited by whatever the sensor can

01:37:48   push out or retain or whatever.

01:37:50   That's not an easy problem but I bet Apple could do it.

01:37:54   Also I would love, you know, in the two camera system that the 7S, or sorry, the 7 Plus got,

01:38:01   The 2X zoomed in camera is significantly worse optically than the wide angle camera.

01:38:08   And that kind of harmed a lot of its usefulness or it reduced the coolness of that feature

01:38:14   for me.

01:38:15   The zoomed in camera lets in less light so it's more noisy and it is not optically stabilized.

01:38:21   I would love for those problems to be improved upon or eliminated in the next one.

01:38:25   So it looks like we're going to get two camera systems again.

01:38:29   Anything they can do to reduce the quality difference between the two cameras would be

01:38:33   very very welcome.

01:38:36   Stabilization would be the most helpful and if they can't do that, let more light in.

01:38:40   Other than that though, I don't really know, my wish list is fairly common with everyone

01:38:47   else's.

01:38:48   Sure yeah, make it faster, make the camera better and you know.

01:38:51   And more battery life because the room is already going to be thicker.

01:38:55   Yeah exactly.

01:38:56   - All right, so we can transition to predictions now.

01:39:00   - Some of which you've already given.

01:39:02   - Yep, exactly.

01:39:02   - So what are we, so on the iPhone front,

01:39:05   they have really kept a remarkable lid on secrecy

01:39:09   of the physical devices and of the software.

01:39:13   Software is usually kept secret pretty well, so that's nice.

01:39:16   But how this phone will use the screen

01:39:19   and the weird notch on top is still so unknown.

01:39:24   That's very interesting to me.

01:39:25   And in fact, I have done very little work on Overcast's UI

01:39:30   for iOS 11 so far.

01:39:31   I've been mostly doing under the hood things

01:39:33   and fixing table view stuff and stuff like that

01:39:35   because I don't want to do any UI design

01:39:39   until I use this phone.

01:39:41   Because for me, this could be a dramatic change

01:39:44   in how apps are laid out,

01:39:46   what kind of gestures they should respond to,

01:39:49   what kind of gestures they shouldn't respond to

01:39:50   or that don't work very well.

01:39:53   I'm very concerned about this swipe up home button thing,

01:39:57   that that's going to basically make my now playing card

01:39:59   far less useful, so I might have to relay that out

01:40:03   or reconsider how that's done.

01:40:05   I think it's wise for developers to wait a little bit

01:40:10   before you make any major UI decisions for iOS 11,

01:40:13   because again, we have no idea how this phone's

01:40:16   gonna use that screen, so that's very interesting to me.

01:40:19   And we're gonna learn part of that at the event,

01:40:21   But we're not gonna really learn a lot of it

01:40:23   until we get our hands on these phones,

01:40:24   as our primary phones, and just figure them out

01:40:27   and feel them and use them every day.

01:40:30   So that'll be interesting.

01:40:31   But otherwise, I do think, again, it's wonderful

01:40:34   that we really don't know a lot of the major details here.

01:40:39   As much as we learn from rumors and leaks

01:40:41   and everything else, the major details,

01:40:44   there's still a lot of holes in that picture.

01:40:46   So that's pretty cool, I think.

01:40:47   Especially so close to the event

01:40:49   we haven't seen credible parts leaks or fully assembled phones or anything like that. Compared

01:40:56   to previous years, we know not that much.

01:40:58   - The major details like jumbo shrimp, we know it's gonna be an edge-to-edge screen

01:41:04   with a notch on top of an OLED screen with stainless steel. We know so much about it.

01:41:08   We know the dimensions, we know the, we have guesses at the screen res. We just don't know

01:41:12   how the software's gonna work, as you noted. But I feel like we know the same amount as

01:41:14   normal. All these mock-ups that you see, the reason they're able to make these mock-ups

01:41:19   is even if they're all just fake like we built something they have the specs down to the

01:41:24   millimeter for this thing and they just might not have the surface details right so I feel

01:41:28   like we know the same amount as we normally do and it is more exciting stuff this year

01:41:32   because it's like oh it's actually a different phone and you know with with the notch and

01:41:36   the size and stuff like that but I think for the the one bit that I haven't been keeping

01:41:41   up the rumors so I so maybe we're just gonna sound dumb or I'm gonna sound dumb by saying

01:41:44   if you're just gonna keep it like rumors you know the answer to this but do you all want

01:41:48   to make a prediction about whether this thing will have touch ID on the back or not.

01:41:54   I don't know what the current rumor is.

01:41:55   Is everyone just saying that it's not a thing anymore or is it definitely a thing?

01:41:58   But what do you think?

01:41:59   Will this have – regardless of whether – oh, I don't think it will have touch ID.

01:42:01   Just this one question, will it have touch ID on the back of this phone or not?

01:42:05   No.

01:42:06   No.

01:42:07   Is that because the rumors all say no?

01:42:09   Yeah.

01:42:10   No.

01:42:11   Do they?

01:42:12   I haven't kept up as much as – okay.

01:42:14   I was going to guess no just based on the possibilities of the rumors about the software

01:42:21   swipe up and stuff because if they're going to do stuff like that and they have face recognition

01:42:26   like it's so clear they're all in on the front of the phone and honestly I really don't want

01:42:32   there to be touching in the back because I'm a case user and as we discussed before I don't

01:42:34   want to have a lint filled belly button to poke my finger into in the back.

01:42:37   So I'm going to say no both because I hope it and because most of the moccasins I've

01:42:43   seen haven't had it either.

01:42:44   So that makes me kind of sad because I really like Touch ID and the face stuff is still

01:42:49   a big question mark, but it seems like we're all thinking about it.

01:42:52   So slow down, slow down, let's talk about that.

01:42:55   So in my opinion, the only way that the Face ID or whatever it's called, I think Pearl

01:43:01   is like the internal code name, we'll call it Face ID for now, the only way that Face

01:43:06   ID is going to be okay in my book is if it's at least as reliable and fast as touch ID.

01:43:15   So similar to John's question a minute ago, yes or no, do you think starting with Marco,

01:43:21   do you think that this face ID thing will be as good and as fast and as reliable as

01:43:27   touch ID to the point that you will not end up missing touch ID? Yes or no?

01:43:32   I think it will be at least close enough that we won't care.

01:43:35   - That's a cop out, but I'll allow it.

01:43:37   - It might not be at least as good or better

01:43:39   in all those metrics, but anything that it is worse at,

01:43:43   I bet it'll still be close enough that we won't care.

01:43:45   - So this question is supposing that they haven't done

01:43:48   Touch ID under the screen, right?

01:43:50   Like this phone not only won't have it on the back,

01:43:52   but now we're saying won't have it at all,

01:43:54   and the only thing it will have is face.

01:43:55   - That is how I meant it, yeah.

01:43:57   - All right, so I don't think that any face thing

01:44:02   have will be, I can't imagine a situation where it will be as fast and convenient as

01:44:07   current touch ID.

01:44:08   Because current touch ID is really really fast, I can have my thumb on it before I get

01:44:12   it out of my pocket, at what point the cameras are useless, right?

01:44:16   So no matter how fast it is, it's already unlocked by the time the camera sees my face

01:44:20   in, right now, right?

01:44:21   So nothing can beat that in terms of actual efficiency.

01:44:24   As Marco said though, alright fine, but is it less efficient?

01:44:29   Do you care?

01:44:30   that it is a little bit slower, because there's a trade-off there.

01:44:33   Like, okay, well it's a little bit slower, but you don't have to fish around for the

01:44:36   button in your pocket.

01:44:37   And there is some utility to that as well.

01:44:39   So I 100% believe that Apple can make Face ID so that I don't care about the lack of

01:44:46   Touch ID, but I don't think it's possible to be as efficient as Touch ID.

01:44:52   And I have my doubts that their first crack at face ID will be good enough that I don't

01:45:00   miss touch ID because like this is going against the second generation or is it third?

01:45:04   I forget.

01:45:05   But second generation of touch ID that is phenomenally good.

01:45:09   Like that's one of the reasons I love, I think I mentioned one in that show where I said

01:45:12   the iPhone 7 was my favorite Apple device of the year.

01:45:15   I love the fast touch ID.

01:45:17   I love it to pieces, right?

01:45:19   And so it makes me – and that's one of the reasons I don't like the Touch ID on

01:45:24   my 2017 MacBook Pro.

01:45:25   It's not as fast as it is on my phone, right?

01:45:28   So I think it is possible that in their first crack at Face ID, it will – I will feel

01:45:35   the loss of Touch ID if Touch ID isn't there.

01:45:37   I hope it's not true.

01:45:38   But anyway, I totally believe by their second crack at Face ID, I'll be in the Marco Zone

01:45:42   where it's like, "Nah, it's a wash."

01:45:44   Yeah, I will say, I think Marco nailed it, that it will be sufficient that it won't drive

01:45:51   us bananas, but we may still miss it.

01:45:54   Miss Touch ID, that is, and Face ID will be sufficient.

01:45:57   But I'm very curious and slightly nervous.

01:46:01   If I hadn't learned from my past and Apple's past, I would absolutely be going on a tirade

01:46:07   right now about how, "Oh, there's no way that Face ID could be even near as good as Touch

01:46:11   ID."

01:46:12   If there's anything I've learned over the years is that just because I don't understand

01:46:16   how something could possibly be as good as what it replaces doesn't mean that Apple also

01:46:21   doesn't understand it.

01:46:23   Typically Apple does something to amaze me and stupefy me with these sorts of moments.

01:46:30   So I have faith, but I am slightly nervous.

01:46:34   So before we get off of this whole topic, prediction on will there be touch ID anywhere

01:46:39   on this phone, just to nail down a prediction?

01:46:42   - I would say no, but I think the rumors are going to,

01:46:46   are saying yes right now.

01:46:48   I personally say no, and somebody mentioned that ATP,

01:46:51   Tipster in the chat had mentioned that it is still there.

01:46:54   I didn't personally see that.

01:46:56   I don't think it'll be there,

01:46:57   but I am not terribly confident about that.

01:47:02   - I mean, Tipster in the chat,

01:47:03   I think is the only person I'm seeing

01:47:05   who is still saying that it's there.

01:47:07   Everyone else, I think, has assumed

01:47:09   or has actually said no, it's gone.

01:47:12   I hope it's still there, but I bet it isn't.

01:47:16   - Yeah, I'm with Marco.

01:47:17   I really, really hope it's still,

01:47:18   I really hope they figured out a way

01:47:20   to get it to work under the screen, something like that.

01:47:23   But if I had to put money, I would say,

01:47:25   I lean slightly towards it's not gonna be on the phone.

01:47:28   - I do hope they do a promotion

01:47:30   or whatever they're gonna call

01:47:31   if they do 120 hertz refresh rate.

01:47:33   - Oh yeah, I would be 100, I think it's gotta have that.

01:47:36   It's gotta have promotion.

01:47:37   - Is OLED good enough to do that?

01:47:38   I don't actually know.

01:47:40   Can you get an OLED screen of that size

01:47:41   to do 120 hertz?

01:47:42   - I don't know if that's a not,

01:47:44   I don't know if that's a limiting factor.

01:47:45   If that's a limiting factor, then you know, then oh well.

01:47:48   But I really hope it has it because it's like,

01:47:52   the phones still don't have true tone, right?

01:47:54   - That's true. - Probably not.

01:47:55   - They don't have room for the sensor.

01:47:57   I hope this isn't one of those situations.

01:47:59   'Cause I feel like it's not,

01:48:00   they don't need to find room for another sensor.

01:48:01   They just need to crank it.

01:48:02   And if this is one thing this phone is gonna have,

01:48:04   it's plenty of grunt, CPU and GPU.

01:48:07   So I feel like there's no reason they can't do promotion.

01:48:09   So I'm 100% predicting ProMotion.

01:48:11   I'd be really upset if it doesn't have it.

01:48:13   - Yeah, I really hope they do,

01:48:14   because on the new iPads, it's so pleasant to use that.

01:48:19   It looks so good.

01:48:21   I described it before as it's like retina for motion.

01:48:24   And in practice, now that it's been kind of like,

01:48:27   it's been a few months since getting the new iPads,

01:48:31   it isn't as big as retina was, even for motion.

01:48:34   It isn't quite that big, but it's really nice,

01:48:38   And I would really like to have it if I can.

01:48:40   - I have to say that I set up my dad's new 10.5 inch,

01:48:44   you know, thing, iPad with promotion on vacation for him.

01:48:48   And now that I wasn't impressed by it, like I could see it,

01:48:51   but it was way more subtle than I thought it would be.

01:48:54   And so I'm totally all for this feature.

01:48:56   I want it to be everywhere, so on and so forth,

01:48:57   but it was less noticeable to me than I thought it would be.

01:49:01   And I was looking for it.

01:49:02   My dad, of course, has no idea what,

01:49:04   I didn't even bother trying to tell him

01:49:06   He can't even tell Retina from not Retina.

01:49:09   - So, slightly pivoting on this new phone topic,

01:49:14   what is the feature or features

01:49:17   that Apple will be marketing

01:49:21   in order to make the non-Pro or non-Edition

01:49:25   or whatever the thousand plus dollar phone is,

01:49:28   what are the regular iPhone 8 and 8 Plus or 7S and 7S Plus,

01:49:33   whatever the hell they're called,

01:49:35   what are they gonna get that's going to be enough

01:49:38   to convince people to upgrade?

01:49:40   I mean, the obvious answer is,

01:49:41   oh, it'll be about a camera.

01:49:42   Oh, it'll be faster.

01:49:44   Oh, it'll potentially maybe have more RAM

01:49:46   and or potentially maybe more storage.

01:49:49   - More RAM, whoa, whoa, whoa.

01:49:49   - I'm just, I'm spitballing, I'm spitballing.

01:49:52   I know, I know, I know, I'm spitballing.

01:49:53   But you see what I'm driving at though.

01:49:56   Is it just gonna be basically a spec upgrade

01:49:58   on some or all the things?

01:49:59   I'm specifically looking at CPU and camera hardware.

01:50:03   Or do you think there's going to be some other nifty trick?

01:50:05   Like maybe as an example, and I don't think this would be the case, but as a silly example,

01:50:10   will Face ID be across the entire line and there will be no Touch ID or only Touch ID

01:50:16   under the screen everywhere?

01:50:17   Or maybe as a different approach, maybe Touch ID is under the screen in the iPhone 8 and

01:50:23   either is also under the screen in the 8 edition or 8 Pro, or it isn't on the 8 edition or

01:50:30   the 8 Pro because Face ID is only on that.

01:50:32   - You're confusing me with your names.

01:50:34   - I know, well, because we don't know what they're called.

01:50:36   - You should call them 7S and 7S+ and 8S.

01:50:38   - Okay. - Or is it one

01:50:39   humane way? - That's fine.

01:50:40   We'll go with that, we'll let's go with that.

01:50:41   - Not that we're predicting those as the names,

01:50:43   but just for discussion.

01:50:44   - Well, but even on the names, though,

01:50:46   like, I would say, there was a great discussion

01:50:47   on upgrade about this during their draft episode today.

01:50:51   The more I think about it, the more sense it makes

01:50:53   that it is not 7S and 8.

01:50:56   - Oh yeah, no, I'm just saying, like,

01:50:58   that's a way we can refer to them

01:50:59   so we all know what we're talking about.

01:51:01   and the names are a separate discussion of what they'll actually be called.

01:51:04   That's always the trickiest to predict because Apple is historically very weird about names.

01:51:09   Well, but I think it does lead to the question of what is in the smaller or lesser eights,

01:51:18   you know, or whatever they are.

01:51:19   Like...

01:51:20   Oh, so you're confusing me again in the 7s thingies.

01:51:22   Well, because... so think about this.

01:51:25   All right, so I think it makes the most sense to have these be marketed together because

01:51:30   They don't want everyone to regret not getting the big one

01:51:35   if they have to get the boring ones.

01:51:39   - Yeah, that's the best case scenario

01:51:41   is this is a family of phones

01:51:42   that all have the same external appearance,

01:51:45   that all have OLED screens,

01:51:46   which I'm saying this is best case scenario.

01:51:48   All have OLED, all have the same external case appearance,

01:51:51   whatever it is, stainless steel, glass,

01:51:53   whatever the hell it's gonna be.

01:51:55   And then you have no problem.

01:51:56   Then you just pick some naming scheme

01:51:57   that whatever you come up with for the naming of them, it's fine. You start to run into

01:52:02   problems though, like Casey was saying, is if the only thing you can unify them with

01:52:06   is external case design, and two of them essentially are 7S's, and one of them is clearly an 8,

01:52:11   and then whatever you name them it's really kind of hard to convince people that those

01:52:15   aren't the lesser phones.

01:52:16   >> Right, and so that's why I think, naming wise, I think this ties in, I would go with

01:52:23   iPhone 8, 8 Plus, and either Pro or 8 Pro.

01:52:27   And the reason, so Pro is a very,

01:52:30   a pretty well understood word in Apple marketing.

01:52:34   What Pro means is the biggest and the best.

01:52:39   That's what it, like across the whole rest of the lineup,

01:52:41   that's what that means.

01:52:43   And they use it not to suggest that you have to be

01:52:46   professional to buy this product,

01:52:48   'cause whatever that means, right?

01:52:50   But as it kind of self-segments people,

01:52:54   and it gives people who aren't buying the Pro

01:52:58   permission not to buy it.

01:53:00   It lets them be happier with a lower end purchase

01:53:04   because they don't think they need the Pro stuff.

01:53:07   And it lets people who think they need the best,

01:53:10   or who want to do video editing,

01:53:13   and have been convinced through years of computer marketing

01:53:15   that you need something named Pro to do video editing,

01:53:19   it convinces them that people will self-select and say,

01:53:23   "Well, I'm a professional.

01:53:25   "I need the best.

01:53:26   "I will get the Pro, the expensive, bigger, better one."

01:53:29   And it gives everyone else permission

01:53:32   to buy the regular, lower ones

01:53:36   without feeling like they're buying something

01:53:38   low-end or cheap or bad.

01:53:43   And that's what Apple needs to happen here

01:53:45   because they aren't gonna be able to produce

01:53:47   the pro one in volume.

01:53:49   They're not, you know, it's gonna be more expensive.

01:53:51   It's gonna, like, they need the regular iPhones

01:53:55   to also seem really great.

01:53:57   And so that's why I think the naming is gonna be

01:53:59   across the way, eight across all of them,

01:54:01   and just the high end one is pro.

01:54:04   And iPhone 8 will mean a certain amount of core features.

01:54:08   I think CPU, GPU, maybe even most of the camera functionality

01:54:13   will be the same across all of them.

01:54:16   The other ones might even get wireless charging,

01:54:18   'cause we haven't talked about that yet really either,

01:54:19   but it's been heavily rumored

01:54:21   that there's gonna be some kind of wireless charging thing,

01:54:24   add-on purchase after the fact.

01:54:26   Apple's really good at coming up with ways recently

01:54:29   to make you spend an extra $100 to $200

01:54:32   on accessories to your devices.

01:54:34   (laughs)

01:54:35   And that's not an accident.

01:54:38   But anyway, every iPhone update to date

01:54:41   has been pretty substantial from the one before it.

01:54:44   Even the ones at the time, people kind of poo-pooed

01:54:47   because they weren't enough.

01:54:49   If you look back and you look at all the components

01:54:51   that were upgraded and everything else,

01:54:53   it ends up they were all pretty good updates.

01:54:55   And I don't think this is gonna be any different.

01:54:57   They're not gonna crap out an update to the two

01:55:01   consumer grade or whatever we're gonna call them, iPhones.

01:55:04   I think the components across all of them

01:55:06   are going to be very, very similar,

01:55:09   with a few exceptions for the big one.

01:55:11   The big one's gonna obviously have

01:55:13   is a very different screen.

01:55:14   The other two I don't think are gonna be OLED,

01:55:16   and they're gonna be LCD, regular IPS LCDs

01:55:18   that we've had forever.

01:55:19   They're gonna be the same old form factors.

01:55:21   Maybe updated case design with the new

01:55:24   seamless steel band with glass in front and back.

01:55:25   Maybe that, I don't know, doesn't honestly matter

01:55:28   that much in that regard.

01:55:29   Most of the camera upgrades I think are gonna happen

01:55:31   across the line, with the exception that I don't think

01:55:34   the 4.7 inch smaller phone is going to get dual cameras.

01:55:39   I think they're still gonna have problems

01:55:42   with fitting that in there while also fitting in

01:55:45   like the forehead and chin components and the LCD screen.

01:55:49   - So Pro will also have a better front-pacing camera,

01:55:51   I bet, for face ID.

01:55:52   - Yeah, I would guess you're right,

01:55:54   'cause it looks like, you know, based on APIs and stuff,

01:55:56   it looks like the front might be getting dual cameras

01:56:00   or at least a camera with a depth sensor

01:56:03   so that we're gonna have like, you know,

01:56:04   better portrait mode.

01:56:05   That whole thing about adding better portrait mode,

01:56:07   that might be Pro only.

01:56:10   I don't know if the lower end ones are gonna get

01:56:13   the IR depth sensors or not.

01:56:14   And if they don't, they wouldn't get Face ID.

01:56:17   So I'm guessing the Pro, the exclusive features to the Pro

01:56:21   are probably depth camera things, dual front camera,

01:56:25   dual back camera in the small size,

01:56:28   Face ID, obviously the big screen with the notch,

01:56:33   and that might be all.

01:56:36   Like I wouldn't expect major difference,

01:56:39   I think wireless charging goes across all of them.

01:56:41   I think any CPU and GPU update goes across all of them.

01:56:44   RAM probably goes the same across all of them.

01:56:46   I bet it's the same system on a chip in all of them.

01:56:49   Or maybe the Pro might be slightly overclocked,

01:56:51   but it probably not.

01:56:52   I'm guessing even that's the same.

01:56:53   Because they really have to make sure

01:56:56   that most of the people who are gonna wanna go buy iPhones

01:57:00   buy the regular ones and not the Pro.

01:57:02   And therefore they have to make sure

01:57:03   that the marketing does not denigrate it

01:57:07   or make it seem like it's an inferior product.

01:57:11   - So hold on though, so if I don't think

01:57:15   I'm interested in the Pro or perhaps Edition,

01:57:18   and my money is on Edition the more I think about it,

01:57:20   but be that as it may.

01:57:22   - No, Edition-- - It's not gonna be Edition.

01:57:23   - No, it's gonna be Edition. - Edition is a failed name.

01:57:26   Edition died with the gold edition,

01:57:28   even though I know they still sell the white one,

01:57:29   which is way better, yeah.

01:57:31   There's a reason why even Apple can barely bring themselves

01:57:35   to talk about the edition watches anymore,

01:57:38   even though they still sell one.

01:57:40   - I don't know, I think in a lot of ways it makes sense,

01:57:42   but that's a relevant.

01:57:43   So the question I'm still not hearing a clear answer to is,

01:57:48   if I don't think I want the Pro,

01:57:50   what am I getting from the non-Pro iPhone?

01:57:53   So you're saying obviously better camera hardware,

01:57:56   possibly new case and possibly inductive charging,

01:57:59   and that's it?

01:58:00   - You're getting the same thing you got from six to seven.

01:58:03   So it's the same size, the same screen resolution,

01:58:06   essentially the same screen, but you get a better camera,

01:58:08   faster CPU, faster GPU, better battery life.

01:58:10   And in this case, you actually also get a different case too,

01:58:12   slightly different aesthetic case.

01:58:15   So it's a pretty big upgrade.

01:58:17   And by the way, if I had to nail down like the,

01:58:19   like I gave the best case before,

01:58:21   they're a family and they all have OLED and blah, blah, blah.

01:58:23   The more realistic case is, as Marco said,

01:58:25   LCD only on the non fancy one.

01:58:28   I'm also gonna say no wireless charging

01:58:30   on the non fancy ones too.

01:58:31   I feel like that's going to be a pro in the future, if it exists at all.

01:58:34   Well, but they really want to sell you that $150 wireless charging thing.

01:58:38   I think just because it is -- it's a good differentiator, and honestly, I don't think

01:58:43   out of the gate it'll be all that popular.

01:58:45   People love plugging their phones in, they have things to plug them in.

01:58:47   I think it should get its test run on the low-volume Pro to see what kind of appetite

01:58:54   there is for it.

01:58:56   And because I agree with you that there's not going to be that much differentiation

01:58:59   when it comes down to it beyond the physical form factor

01:59:03   that this is an additional differentiator

01:59:05   that everybody understands.

01:59:06   Like you want the pro and only the pro ones

01:59:07   got wireless charging, but no one's gonna say,

01:59:09   "Oh, I'm not gonna buy the non-pro ones,"

01:59:11   because they have no expectation of wireless charging.

01:59:13   Like it doesn't feel crappier.

01:59:15   They're like, "Oh, I just plugged my phone in, it's fine.

01:59:16   Like I don't wanna buy

01:59:17   a hundred dollar wireless charging thing anyway."

01:59:19   Right, it's only people with money to burn.

01:59:21   So that's my prediction that if it exists, it's pro only.

01:59:24   - All right, so what else are we predicting?

01:59:28   I do expect the iPhone SE to get an update,

01:59:31   but not this fall.

01:59:33   - It's gonna be updated at the special event

01:59:34   with the Mac Mini, right?

01:59:35   - Yeah, right.

01:59:36   (laughing)

01:59:37   No, I'm guessing, 'cause the first iPhone SE

01:59:39   came out in springtime, I'm guessing it's gonna be

01:59:43   similar here, because the SE is a product

01:59:46   that has sold way better than they thought it would.

01:59:48   It is a product that to keep pushing into more markets

01:59:51   that they're not very dominant in,

01:59:55   I think they should keep selling it,

01:59:56   and I think they know that too.

01:59:57   and it doesn't seem to cannibalize sales

02:00:00   of the bigger phones to a meaningful degree.

02:00:03   So that's great, but they probably shouldn't update it

02:00:06   at the same time as the bigger phones

02:00:08   because I think it might cannibalize slightly more

02:00:12   if they did.

02:00:13   - It won't match them too.

02:00:14   It's not gonna be of a piece with the other ones

02:00:18   with the new external design so they're our family.

02:00:21   - Yeah, exactly.

02:00:22   And it might not be even after it's updated.

02:00:25   Anyway, I do think they are going to update the SE

02:00:28   or at least the role the SE plays in the lineup,

02:00:31   but probably not until next spring or summer.

02:00:35   So anyway, so moving on to other products.

02:00:38   - So 4K Apple TV?

02:00:40   - I sure hope so.

02:00:42   Based on the rumors, that sounds likely.

02:00:45   I sure hope so because the Apple TV needs help.

02:00:50   We're going into a holiday season

02:00:52   and it is probably the least desirable

02:00:55   of all the TV setup boxes for most people.

02:00:58   It's already the most expensive,

02:01:00   it already has the worst remote in history,

02:01:03   in the history of TV remote devices.

02:01:05   Like, it needs a lot of help,

02:01:07   so if this is a great time, I really, really hope

02:01:11   they add, you know, 4K, redesign the remote,

02:01:15   and have some kind of story for 4K content.

02:01:18   A basic story could just be as simple as,

02:01:21   look we have Amazon and Netflix having 4K in their apps.

02:01:24   That's good, I would say that's a minimum what you need.

02:01:28   I really hope they also have a story for buying 4K movies

02:01:32   and 4K TV shows from iTunes.

02:01:34   That would be great, I really hope they do that.

02:01:37   - Even if they don't though,

02:01:38   they should just ship the hardware.

02:01:40   I hate waiting for hardware for content deals.

02:01:43   Just ship it, like you said, Netflix will be useful.

02:01:46   We can look at the menus and just ship,

02:01:48   then you know the hardware's done, just ship it.

02:01:50   and then whatever, you can't get your stupid deals

02:01:52   worked out, can't agree on how much they're gonna cost,

02:01:55   work that out later.

02:01:56   We'll get it in a software update, just ship the hardware.

02:01:58   - Especially 'cause like, the deal making department

02:02:03   at Apple seems like it has been underperforming

02:02:06   in recent years.

02:02:07   So I don't, yeah, the last thing I want is for,

02:02:10   the hardware and the ability of other apps

02:02:13   that could do 4K just fine to be held back

02:02:17   because the deal making department

02:02:18   can't make content deals anymore.

02:02:20   - Now I can imagine they'll ship the hardware

02:02:24   and it will come, I don't even know what,

02:02:25   what are they up to, tvOS 4?

02:02:27   What are the numbers?

02:02:28   - I think it just matches iTunes or iOS versions, yeah.

02:02:31   - 11, I can't keep track.

02:02:32   But anyway, there's obviously HEVC crap that they need

02:02:35   that's part of that, so it could be that the 4K Apple TV

02:02:38   doesn't ship until the tvOS equivalent of iOS 11

02:02:42   is ready for it, so there could be a couple week delay

02:02:44   in that or whatever.

02:02:45   tvOS 11, is that what it is called?

02:02:47   I don't even know. - Yes.

02:02:48   I mean, they don't really talk about the OS on the TV,

02:02:51   it doesn't really matter, honestly.

02:02:51   - Right, but it's totally the iOS 11 based TV OS

02:02:55   that has the HEVC stuff that they need for 4K, that's it.

02:02:58   - I am also, one of the wildcards for me

02:03:01   for Apple TV prediction is I wonder,

02:03:04   assuming they have redesigned their remote,

02:03:05   which we've heard from a few different places

02:03:07   and I hope it's true.

02:03:09   - I'm so dreading that, like now I know I want the remote

02:03:11   to be changed, but it's like, oh God, what are they,

02:03:13   because they had two remotes so far

02:03:15   and both of them, I'm not a fan of.

02:03:16   It can't get worse than this one.

02:03:18   - They're more than two, they have three remotes.

02:03:20   - It can't possibly get worse.

02:03:21   Yeah, they have the white plastic one.

02:03:23   - A series of remotes that it makes me feel

02:03:26   like they're not getting it.

02:03:28   Like they're trying, I guess,

02:03:30   every five years they make a new remote,

02:03:33   but I just hope someone says,

02:03:35   look, look how big my hands are.

02:03:37   Look how small the couch cushion cracks are.

02:03:40   Just give me a TiVo peanut,

02:03:43   or I'll just use a spare TiVo remote.

02:03:46   - I left the TiVo remote at the vacation house, by the way,

02:03:48   so I'm down on TiVo remote. - Oh no!

02:03:50   - I can buy aftermarket ones.

02:03:52   Like, why are you buying a $70 Bluetooth TiVo remote

02:03:55   to use on my Apple TV?

02:03:56   - Yeah, so anyway, I hope that in the process

02:04:02   of them hopefully redesigning this remote,

02:04:05   I would like to see a little bit more

02:04:07   of a nod towards gaming uses.

02:04:09   The Apple TV, I would say--

02:04:12   - In the remote?

02:04:13   - Yes, so the App Store situation,

02:04:16   and I don't think it's panned out

02:04:17   the way Apple expected it to,

02:04:18   and the way most of us hoped it would.

02:04:20   There really have not been must-have apps on Apple TV

02:04:25   that were anything beyond video apps for content services,

02:04:28   and that's fine, that's what most of us want

02:04:30   most of the time, it turns out, to nobody's surprise.

02:04:33   But the gaming situation, first of all,

02:04:37   other types of apps, when they demoed it,

02:04:40   they had a real estate browsing app and catalogs

02:04:43   that you were supposed to browse catalogs on your TV.

02:04:45   Nobody does that, but the two big ones that are obvious

02:04:50   that most people want to do on their TV

02:04:51   is watch video and play games.

02:04:53   And the video thing I think they have pretty well down,

02:04:56   you know, there's some rough edges here and there,

02:04:58   but you know, it serves that purpose pretty well.

02:05:01   The gaming thing, I think there's a number of issues

02:05:04   that have prevented that from really taking off.

02:05:06   There are a few good games on the Apple TV, but not many,

02:05:09   and as far as I understand, the financial upside of those

02:05:14   before they were makers has been pretty low

02:05:16   and that's one of the reasons we haven't really seen

02:05:17   a lot of them.

02:05:18   One of the things that could fix that,

02:05:21   I mean obviously there's lots of app store improvements

02:05:24   that could fix that or could help that,

02:05:25   but one of the things that could really help that also is

02:05:28   no one is buying a $50 controller for their Apple TV.

02:05:32   I have, I've bought two of them, but I'm weird

02:05:35   and they aren't very good and I kind of regret

02:05:37   having bought them.

02:05:38   Like, no one's buying them.

02:05:40   What Apple needs to do is to have every Apple TV

02:05:43   is sold be able to play a reasonable number of games with the remote that it comes with.

02:05:48   That doesn't necessarily mean it has to be a giant gamepad, but it has to be a little

02:05:52   more game accessible than the Sierra remote that we've had so far, which basically has

02:05:58   one button that games can use. It needs more than that. So I hope we see something like

02:06:05   that. I'm not confident that we will necessarily. I think they're just going to give us a redesigned

02:06:10   version of the Sierra remote with no additional functionality really. And you know, if that's

02:06:16   what we get, fine, I would still be happy with that. That's still better than the remote

02:06:19   we have now. But I think it would be a missed opportunity if they didn't take this chance

02:06:24   to improve the prospects of gaming on the Apple TV.

02:06:27   - I reject this plan for two reasons.

02:06:29   - Okay.

02:06:30   - One.

02:06:31   - No, here we go.

02:06:32   - I want the redesign remote to be a good remote for the common case and I don't want

02:06:36   any gaming functionality compromising it in any way.

02:06:40   And two, if you don't want to make it a full-fledged controller, there's going to be no analog

02:06:46   sticks.

02:06:47   It's going to basically be, "Oh, it's great for playing NES and SNES games."

02:06:50   And I feel like that is not sufficient to fill the role that you're trying to say, which

02:06:54   is like, "Look, you can play reasonable games on it."

02:06:57   Because in my world, reasonable games are not only things that are controlled with a

02:07:00   D-pad.

02:07:01   You have to have at least one analog stick, preferably two, and you just can't put that

02:07:06   on a remote that is good for the common case for a TV.

02:07:09   I'm all for Apple shipping an actual real gaming remote with the Apple TV by default

02:07:14   as part of their astronomically high price, but we know that's never going to happen.

02:07:18   So I'm saying Apple continue to be really bad at games and game hardware and just ship

02:07:24   it with a decent remote for the TV.

02:07:26   I understand where you're coming from, where you want a gaming ecosystem to flourish a

02:07:29   little bit there by having something, but I feel like the gaming control that you can

02:07:34   fit into a remote that is still essentially a TV remote is not good enough to fill that

02:07:39   role.

02:07:40   - Yeah, I don't know.

02:07:41   - Plus there's a Switch.

02:07:42   Have you played Sonic Mania?

02:07:43   You really like it.

02:07:44   - I've started to.

02:07:45   I haven't gotten through a lot of it yet because I keep saving it to play with Adam, but I

02:07:48   have started to play it and I am so incredibly happy with it.

02:07:54   It makes me so happy.

02:07:55   It is so good.

02:07:56   And anybody who's a fan of the old 16-bit Sonic games for the Sega Genesis must play

02:08:01   Sonic Mania.

02:08:02   so, so good.

02:08:04   All right, Apple Watch, yes or no?

02:08:08   I think yes.

02:08:10   I am slightly in favor of it being with LTE.

02:08:15   I think it's going to happen, not terribly confident.

02:08:19   What I'm unsure of, though, is will you be able to place a phone call via LTE, or will

02:08:25   it be data only like an iPad?

02:08:28   And I want the answer to be that you can place a phone call only because I want it in one

02:08:32   like, "Oh crap" scenarios, like, "Oh crap, I just broke my leg as I'm off for a run."

02:08:37   But I suspect that if it gets LTE at all, it will not be supportive of a phone call,

02:08:45   much like the iPad.

02:08:46   I think if it gets LTE, it will keep the same form factor because it will need more battery.

02:08:53   I think there'll be intelligent—I'm not the first person to come up with this—but

02:08:55   I think there'll be intelligent switching as to whether or not LTE is on, so it will

02:08:58   be off until it can't find an internet connection any other way.

02:09:06   I think if it doesn't have LTE, then the form factor might get thinner, but I think they're

02:09:10   going to stick with the same—not lugs, I don't think that's the word I'm looking for—but

02:09:14   the same design for the connector for the watch bands, so that even if it gets a little

02:09:21   bit thinner, your existing watch bands will still work.

02:09:25   That's my two cents.

02:09:26   Marco?

02:09:27   So I have a love-hate relationship with the Apple Watch.

02:09:32   - There's a love part?

02:09:33   - Yeah, I mean, it's useful sometimes.

02:09:36   I want it to be a better watch than it is,

02:09:40   but it seems like Apple thinks it's good enough as a watch

02:09:44   and that the market is very clearly telling them

02:09:46   this is a fitness tracker, primarily, for most people.

02:09:49   It is a fitness tracker and maybe a notifications display.

02:09:53   And so it's hard for me to argue

02:09:55   against the entire rest of the market.

02:09:57   I would love for it to move in the direction of

02:10:01   telling time more reliably.

02:10:03   Like, look, and maybe looking better while doing it.

02:10:06   That would be nice.

02:10:07   But the market is telling it differently.

02:10:09   You know, it seems by all accounts to be selling pretty well

02:10:13   as mostly a fitness device.

02:10:16   So, I think what they will do

02:10:21   is to keep pushing it in that direction.

02:10:23   And that means thing, you know,

02:10:24   that means probably a cellular option

02:10:26   so that you can take it without having your phone with you

02:10:29   and have it behave as a stand-in phone,

02:10:32   things like that, 'cause a lot of joggers and things

02:10:36   really need it to, they really want to be able

02:10:39   to run without their phone.

02:10:40   And right now they run with big phone armbands

02:10:43   or belt clips and they're clunky

02:10:45   and nobody really likes them.

02:10:46   And so Apple will do with the watch

02:10:49   what it takes to sell to more fitness-type roles,

02:10:54   'cause that is where it succeeds.

02:10:56   So that's why they added GPS in the Series 2

02:10:59   and full waterproofing and full swimming capability

02:11:02   and stuff, and that's why they keep working on things

02:11:05   like new workout functionality and why

02:11:09   the smart watch faces haven't gotten very smart.

02:11:13   And there seems to be very little effort for them

02:11:16   to move in the direction of having an always on

02:11:18   or at least ambient mode type screen.

02:11:21   Things that would make it a better watch

02:11:23   or a better wrist computer,

02:11:26   they have not really invested heavily in those areas,

02:11:29   where they are investing heavily is fitness areas,

02:11:30   'cause that's where it's selling.

02:11:32   So again, what I would like is very different

02:11:34   than what they will do, but that's fine,

02:11:37   because I like regular watches so much

02:11:39   I don't wear the Apple Watch most of the time,

02:11:40   and I would rather have a regular watch

02:11:43   that has its screen always on,

02:11:45   and always tells the time,

02:11:48   and doesn't require me to bring a charger on trips.

02:11:53   I am curious to see what they do with it,

02:11:55   but I'm not hopeful that it's going to change

02:11:58   my outlook on the watch for myself.

02:12:00   I do think whatever they do will probably be successful.

02:12:03   One of the reservations I have though,

02:12:05   is that if they do what people expect them to do

02:12:08   and make it cellular, the entire watch OS,

02:12:12   like as an OS, as a platform,

02:12:15   really is designed to be a satellite device of a phone.

02:12:20   And granted, the phone was first devised

02:12:23   to be a satellite device of your Mac,

02:12:25   so it's not to say that they can't ever

02:12:28   break it away from that,

02:12:29   but watchOS needs a lot of work

02:12:34   to make it meaningfully good to use, I think,

02:12:38   as a standalone cellular connected device.

02:12:41   And I don't think they're doing that yet,

02:12:43   or I think it would be unrealistic

02:12:44   to expect them to do that this quickly

02:12:45   based on what we've seen so far.

02:12:47   So I don't know how a cellular watch would work in practice.

02:12:52   And so that remains to be seen.

02:12:56   I'm a little skeptical on that front,

02:12:58   but I do expect that's probably what they're going to do.

02:13:02   - If they do a cellular watch,

02:13:04   will there be any sort of negotiation at least

02:13:08   with American carriers about how that is handled

02:13:12   from a pricing standpoint?

02:13:13   So do you think they'll say,

02:13:15   "Oh, okay, here's your cellular watch,

02:13:18   "and by the way, we've talked to the major US carriers

02:13:21   "and it's not gonna cost you any extra money

02:13:22   "on any of your plans."

02:13:23   Or do you think they'll just leave that

02:13:24   entirely to the carriers to utterly fleece us

02:13:27   as they are off to do?

02:13:29   - Oh, it's definitely gonna cost extra money.

02:13:30   The only question is maybe they got a good deal.

02:13:32   Maybe it'll only cost 10 bucks a month

02:13:34   as opposed to more.

02:13:36   That's the more likely situation there.

02:13:39   There's no way it's free.

02:13:42   I think there were already the beginnings of various moves

02:13:47   by the carriers to enable technologies for things like

02:13:50   having multiple devices share the same phone number.

02:13:52   So that you could, if your watch is away from your phone

02:13:55   and they both have cell connections,

02:13:57   that they could both ring and you could pick up

02:13:59   on your watch.

02:14:00   I think there is something about that I read recently

02:14:02   that that's in progress or that's being deployed slowly.

02:14:06   So there is carrier involvement probably here

02:14:10   to make this stuff happen, but there's no way

02:14:12   coming without additional monthly fees.

02:14:14   Thinking about the watch, now I'm starting to think about how much stuff is going to

02:14:17   be in this event.

02:14:18   Obviously they got to have time for the phones.

02:14:20   You would think maybe that they would do the phones as here are two new phones and then

02:14:24   there's one more thing whether they say that or not and then there's the fancy one.

02:14:28   I guess that depends on how they end up naming the thing.

02:14:30   It would work better if we didn't all know that Notch phone was coming but anyway who

02:14:33   knows what they'll decide there.

02:14:35   Then you got the Apple TV which is a good warm up thing of like yeah yeah they could

02:14:38   be the first thing they announce, it's short, no one really cares that much, we all look

02:14:41   the remote fine the middle thing could be a watch but i don't know is that is that too much

02:14:49   will they have to spend not as much time on the watch and i think it works out if the watch is not

02:14:53   externally changed too much you mentioned the the strap lugs being the same which seems like a gimme

02:14:58   but that the external design is also pretty much not changed it's like the what are we on the third

02:15:02   iteration of the x-treme trailer now right you get zero one two right that's fine i guess i with the

02:15:10   with the cell connection in the phone, I think that's a reason they would have to keep the

02:15:15   Airstream look because they just need all that battery, right? It's gonna, you know,

02:15:19   that's got to be tough on the battery. So presumably all the internals are get yet more efficient,

02:15:24   right? And what do you do with that extra battery? Now we can have LTE.

02:15:27   I guess maybe that you would consider that not a very exciting watch update, but to show anything

02:15:35   about it at all you've got to show the hardware and then also the software and do some silly

02:15:40   demos of how or a video or something of how LTE works.

02:15:44   I mean we haven't gone on to other things but I guess like is this it for the event?

02:15:47   Because I think the watch does, to be clear, I think the watch does need to be updated

02:15:50   and it would totally fit in this event and you know now would be the time to do it so

02:15:55   they should.

02:15:56   But is that it now?

02:15:57   Now we have a full event, Apple TV, new Apple Watch, new phones, that's it?

02:16:02   I mean, that's three new phones, one of which is especially groundbreaking. The Apple TV,

02:16:09   you know, and you know, Apple TV going 4K and you know, having a little new remote and

02:16:15   everything and getting 4K content being sold through iTunes, that's not that much time

02:16:19   on stage really. Like that's, even if they pad it with a demo, which doesn't make a lot

02:16:24   of sense, but even if they pad it with a demo, that's probably under five minutes, definitely

02:16:28   under 10. So I think stage time wise we're mostly being mostly spent time on the iPhone

02:16:35   and even if they had cellular for the watch that also is not a huge time taker in the

02:16:41   event that you know they can probably get through the whole watch segment in 20 minutes

02:16:45   at most.

02:16:46   Yeah the phone is going to be so long though because it's not it's three phones and they

02:16:50   have to do they have to really talk up the first two to make you think like if this is

02:16:54   all there was it would be a great update year but wait there's there's even more and they're

02:16:57   and they're just gonna spend so much time on that

02:16:59   'cause this is like the most important

02:17:01   marketing presentation they give all year, every year.

02:17:05   - And this time it's like, did you get it?

02:17:07   It's actually three separate devices.

02:17:10   - Three separate devices, yeah.

02:17:12   (laughing)

02:17:14   That's showmanship, even just the showmanship

02:17:15   to do the first two and to say aren't these phones great

02:17:18   but there's one more thing.

02:17:19   Like Jobs would have loved that if everything hadn't leaked

02:17:22   but I don't think whoever they have presenting these phones

02:17:23   will even make a faint in that direction

02:17:25   because we all know, they know that we know

02:17:28   that they know that we know that, you know,

02:17:30   they're not just coming.

02:17:31   - I'm mad that I flubbed it, it's are you getting it?

02:17:34   - Yeah, yeah. - Damn it.

02:17:35   - It's all right.

02:17:36   - Well, and also, you know, speaking of Steve,

02:17:38   like this is their first event in the Steve Jobs Theater

02:17:41   of their new campus.

02:17:42   So they're probably gonna spend a couple minutes on that.

02:17:45   All right, so that's probably gonna be the opening.

02:17:47   I'm guessing that gets two to three minutes.

02:17:49   - It's one picture and two sentences.

02:17:52   - Yeah, well, only if they don't mention their campus.

02:17:54   - Yeah.

02:17:55   in their campus, then we're spending two or three minutes on this probably. But that's

02:17:59   fine. I'm curious to see it, honestly. Whatever they say about it, I want to see.

02:18:03   The theater? It's just going to be a big screen and a stage. Is the inside of that theater

02:18:08   anything special? I mean, it's nice that it's there. I'm sure it's a really nice theater.

02:18:11   Oh, no, no. I'm saying the whole -- anything they're going to say about the whole campus,

02:18:16   they're probably going to give a very brief introduction to the campus. Thanks for having

02:18:20   us, et cetera. Okay. And then they're going to go over probably the most boring stuff

02:18:24   so probably like the Apple Watch update first, then TV,

02:18:27   actually maybe TV first, TV's pretty boring.

02:18:28   - No, TV's before watch.

02:18:29   - Yeah, TV first, then watch,

02:18:32   and then they're gonna get into the phones.

02:18:33   I don't expect, maybe they could do like a HomePod update,

02:18:37   but I don't think the HomePod is ready to ship yet,

02:18:41   and I also don't think there's that much more to say

02:18:43   unless it's ready to ship.

02:18:44   - What about the giant Mac Pro teaser video?

02:18:46   How about that, huh?

02:18:47   - Yeah, right. (laughs)

02:18:48   - I hope not, oh my god, I hope not.

02:18:50   - Like on upgrade, they had like a,

02:18:52   they were trying to bet like whether they would

02:18:53   - Have you even mentioned the Mac at all?

02:18:55   - 80 to one odds against the Mac Pro.

02:18:57   - I honestly think it is a valid question,

02:19:01   like whether the Mac will be mentioned at all

02:19:04   in the entire presentation.

02:19:05   - No, why would it be?

02:19:06   Is the Mac ever mentioned at the phone event?

02:19:09   - Well, here's a question.

02:19:10   Do you think High Sierra's ready?

02:19:11   'Cause some of the beta people are saying it's really not.

02:19:15   - Even if it is, they're not gonna, no.

02:19:17   I haven't been using the betas,

02:19:19   but my impression is that October,

02:19:21   I mean, if they can announce it,

02:19:23   It'll be ready by the end of October, the latest,

02:19:25   but why would they say anything about it?

02:19:27   We all know about High Sierra.

02:19:28   They've talked about it plenty.

02:19:28   It'll come when it comes.

02:19:29   There's no reason to mention it.

02:19:31   Maybe, like, here's one final thing for this.

02:19:33   iOS 11 date, do we get that at the event?

02:19:36   - Oh, yeah, they're definitely gonna announce that.

02:19:38   I mean, 'cause it's probably gonna be, like,

02:19:40   within a week or something.

02:19:42   iOS 11's gonna be soon after that.

02:19:44   - Yep, I agree.

02:19:45   I'm just wondering, like, you know,

02:19:46   they might just be like, you know,

02:19:49   the new iPhones ship on such and such a date,

02:19:51   and we all know they're coming with 11,

02:19:52   but they never actually say iOS 11 for everybody else

02:19:54   is coming on whatever day,

02:19:55   'cause that is an announcement that does fit into it.

02:19:57   - No, they always tell us.

02:19:58   They're probably gonna give a GM that day,

02:20:00   and then the full iOS 11 ships to customers a week later,

02:20:04   or five days later, something like that.

02:20:06   It's not gonna be a big gap there.

02:20:09   - Steve Trout and Smith has been doing the diffs

02:20:10   on the builds, and now they're really tweaking small things

02:20:13   in each of these builds,

02:20:13   so it seems like it's pretty much ready.

02:20:15   - The only thing is that whatever API changes

02:20:18   are going to be required or enabled

02:20:21   to take advantage of the new phone screen shape and size

02:20:25   and any possible IR depth stuff.

02:20:28   Those are probably all gonna be enabled

02:20:30   at the very last minute in the SDK,

02:20:32   like the day of the event.

02:20:34   That's gonna be brand new in the GM

02:20:36   and none of the developers will have ever seen

02:20:37   that stuff before or at least some of it.

02:20:40   - I'm sure all those if-defs coming to life

02:20:43   won't affect their code.

02:20:44   - Yeah. (laughs)

02:20:46   Again, this is one of the reasons why I said,

02:20:48   - Absolutely, I really am, I'm not doing any UI work

02:20:51   on Overcast yet because I wanna see how things change.

02:20:55   Because I know they will.

02:20:56   And I think it's like, I'm really delaying my iOS 11

02:21:01   UI refresh until probably the winter time

02:21:04   because I really want to do it right for these new phones.

02:21:08   And to do that right requires me to use it.

02:21:12   - Alright, we're running long, so,

02:21:13   which is of no great surprise.

02:21:14   - We're running long.

02:21:15   (laughs)

02:21:16   - That's, yeah, I know, right?

02:21:18   So let's maybe round this out with a wildcard prediction, something that, and you can specify

02:21:25   one way or the other, either the one thing that you don't expect that you really want,

02:21:30   or what I'd prefer you answer, but go whichever way you'd like, the one thing that we haven't

02:21:35   really talked about, but you expect to be there.

02:21:38   And so if I will start to get into kind of get you thinking about it, I think that if

02:21:45   If we're doing this at Apple Park or Apple Campus 2 or whatever it's called, Apple Park,

02:21:51   and this theater was presumably built in large part for this very moment, I think there's

02:21:59   going to be some sort of showy, like, I can't think of how to verbalize this, but like,

02:22:05   something will come up from the floor in a way that we've never seen before.

02:22:09   Like, there'll be some like whiz-bang showmanship things that are enabled by this new space

02:22:13   that they had complete control over. The whole building just takes off? Well yeah,

02:22:17   exactly. It spins so fast that it eventually takes off and/or travels back

02:22:22   in time. That's a reference that neither of you will get. But anyway, I think that

02:22:28   there will be some sort of, like, interesting thing that has never been

02:22:33   done before. And yes, okay, so like Sam the Geek in the chat is saying, we've seen

02:22:36   things emerge from the floor. I'm just using that as like an illustrative

02:22:38   example, but I think there'll be something about it that makes it more fancy and whizbang

02:22:44   than anything we've seen from an Apple product demo before, certainly recently.

02:22:49   That's my wildcard prediction.

02:22:51   So Jon, what do you think?

02:22:53   Either something that we haven't really talked about that you really expect to happen, or

02:22:56   if you want to cop out something that you just really wish would happen that hopefully

02:23:00   isn't the Mac Pro, that may or may not actually happen.

02:23:03   First of all, I just want to say I hope that the thing you predicted doesn't happen.

02:23:07   Because that's, like, I don't think that, not that it's in poor taste, but it's not

02:23:13   the modern Apple sensibilities for that type of thing.

02:23:15   I hope that the inside of the theater is just a really nice theater with a really awesome

02:23:19   projection and comfy seats for a thousand of your closest friends.

02:23:23   And that's it.

02:23:25   It could have stage lifts, but I feel like that's kind of gimmicky and I hope they don't

02:23:29   do that.

02:23:30   So for, I think my wildcard, I think this is a third category of a thing that I don't

02:23:39   actually predict but I really wish would happen is I really wish all the phones would be OLED.

02:23:43   I know that's almost certainly not going to be the case, but I think that would be, that

02:23:48   would really unify the line.

02:23:50   The external appearance, the OLED, the internals, the different form factors, like just, it

02:23:56   would be nice if this was the year for OLED for all the phones.

02:24:00   Based on the various articles floating around how Samsung's supplying all the OLEDs, maybe

02:24:05   they just mean for Apple's new phone, but I think they just mean in general, and they

02:24:08   just can't do that with their high volume phones.

02:24:11   So aside from Mac Pro stuff, obviously, that I'm not going to mention, I think it would

02:24:16   be really cool if they were all OLED.

02:24:18   - Marco.

02:24:19   - I mean, the thing I would want the most that is still plausible that I haven't already

02:24:25   predicted, I would say early release of the iMac Pro

02:24:29   or the HomePod.

02:24:32   I don't think either of those are very likely.

02:24:34   - No.

02:24:35   - Because they both were saying December, I think,

02:24:37   in WWDC, right?

02:24:39   So those are fairly unlikely.

02:24:41   And if they're being released in December,

02:24:44   this would even be awfully early to open up pre-orders,

02:24:47   so they probably aren't gonna do that either.

02:24:49   But if the iMac Pro is ready early, that would be cool.

02:24:54   And the HomePod I think probably has the least chance

02:24:57   of being released early,

02:24:58   'cause it seemed like it was still way behind in software,

02:25:01   and that's the hardest thing to get done early.

02:25:04   I also, more realistically, on the front of the,

02:25:09   on the iPad, or sorry, on the iMac Pro front,

02:25:12   it would be really cool if that had Face ID.

02:25:16   It isn't out yet.

02:25:18   We don't know whether it will or not.

02:25:20   It could, they could put the same sensors, presumably,

02:25:23   into the display of an iMac.

02:25:25   So I would love if an iMac Pro,

02:25:29   if the iMac Pro started out having Face ID.

02:25:32   We already know it has secure enclave.

02:25:34   So it has some of the things that would be required

02:25:37   to do that already.

02:25:39   So any sign that Face ID could be making it into Macs

02:25:43   would be really cool and the most opportune time

02:25:47   to start that would be with the iMac Pro.

02:25:50   So that's a big wild card, I think,

02:25:54   but that's fairly unlikely to happen at all,

02:25:58   let alone in this event.

02:26:00   So if I had to look at this particular event,

02:26:03   I guess my wild card or the thing I kinda hope

02:26:07   blows me away, you know, I already hope the phone is great

02:26:11   in all these different ways, but I'm pretty sure it will be.

02:26:14   Like the phone being, Apple has such a good track record

02:26:17   with phones, that the phone being great is not even

02:26:21   a risk to take to predict that.

02:26:23   It's not even a thing that would surprise me

02:26:25   because the phones are always great.

02:26:27   So, and that's kind of horrible in some way

02:26:30   to think that way and to say that,

02:26:32   but that, like their traffic record is so good

02:26:34   that I expect the phone to be amazing.

02:26:37   One thing that would dramatically surprise me

02:26:40   that is not easily predicted is I want the watch

02:26:43   to really surprise me and delight me.

02:26:46   Like, if they're doing a new watch now,

02:26:49   the only watch update they've done so far,

02:26:51   which was when they launched the series one and two,

02:26:54   was a pretty minor overall update.

02:26:57   It really, as I said earlier,

02:26:59   it really didn't change that much.

02:27:00   I would love for the Apple Watch to really surprise me

02:27:05   in a positive way, and to do something that makes me say,

02:27:08   "Wow, I really want that," or, "That would be really great,"

02:27:11   or, "I wonder what I could do with that."

02:27:14   And it hasn't done that yet.

02:27:16   And so I really hope for that.

02:27:18   - Yeah, there's no way that'll happen.

02:27:20   - So Marco listed three things in the interest of time.

02:27:23   - Have you ever heard top four?

02:27:24   - Yeah, well in top four you can only come up

02:27:26   with one or two things.

02:27:27   In this show I ask for one, you get three.

02:27:29   I see how it works.

02:27:30   - Of course.

02:27:31   - For his next selection Marco picks every prediction

02:27:34   except for the Mac Pro.

02:27:35   (laughing)

02:27:36   - We know that's not gonna happen.

02:27:37   I would not even bet on them mentioning the Mac Pro.

02:27:41   I mean like honestly-- - No Macs.

02:27:43   - I honestly think it's very unlikely

02:27:44   that we're gonna have anything about the Mac mentioned

02:27:47   at all, that would be extremely unlikely.

02:27:49   I don't think High Sierra is ready,

02:27:51   and therefore they're not gonna launch the Mac Pro

02:27:53   without High Sierra, and I don't think they're gonna mention

02:27:58   the Mac Pro at all, 'cause they have nothing new to say

02:27:59   about it yet, 'cause it's too early.

02:28:02   So yeah, I wouldn't expect really anything about the Mac

02:28:05   to be mentioned at this event.

02:28:06   A few people predicted or have wished for an update

02:28:11   to AirPods, either a new version or a price drop

02:28:14   - Or both. - Or shipping them.

02:28:16   - Yeah, I think a new version and a price drop

02:28:18   are both incredibly unlikely to happen.

02:28:20   - Nope.

02:28:21   - I think the AirPods go unchanged in all ways

02:28:25   through this holiday season,

02:28:26   and they're gonna sell a ton of them,

02:28:27   and you're gonna love 'em.

02:28:28   - Well, they're not gonna sell a ton of them.

02:28:29   They can't make them.

02:28:31   - Yeah.

02:28:32   - Still-- - I forgot to mention

02:28:32   for the 4K Apple TV HDR, which should go without saying,

02:28:36   but it's worth saying. - Oh, yeah.

02:28:38   - And the other thing is increased frame rate output,

02:28:42   so you have something that's a multiple of 24.

02:28:44   - Yeah.

02:28:45   - I think we're done.

02:28:46   - I think we're done with this event.

02:28:48   We don't need to watch it now.

02:28:49   (laughing)

02:28:50   - Yeah, that's it.

02:28:52   - Yeah.

02:28:53   Thanks to our sponsors this week, Betterment,

02:28:55   Hover, and Away, and we will see you next week

02:28:58   after the iPhone event.

02:29:00   (upbeat music)

02:29:03   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

02:29:05   ♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

02:29:07   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

02:29:09   ♪ Accidental ♪

02:29:10   It was accidental.

02:29:12   John didn't do any research.

02:29:15   Margo and Casey wouldn't let him.

02:29:17   Cause it was accidental.

02:29:20   It was accidental.

02:29:23   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm.

02:29:28   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them at

02:29:33   [music]

02:30:03   I'm going through serious bike withdrawal.

02:30:06   - Oh my God.

02:30:07   - Didn't you have like seven bikes at your house now?

02:30:09   - No, they're at the beach house.

02:30:11   - What about the one you got for your house?

02:30:13   - I didn't get one for my house yet.

02:30:15   - Oh good, now you can get another six of them.

02:30:17   - Well, the problem is that the,

02:30:20   there's really nowhere here to put bikes at all.

02:30:23   Like it's gonna be fairly hard to put even one bike

02:30:26   in my garage.

02:30:27   - Didn't you have a two car garage?

02:30:28   - Yeah, it has two cars in it.

02:30:29   - Don't tell me there's no room for bikes.

02:30:31   my garage barely fits my Honda Accord and you're like,

02:30:34   "Oh, there's no room for bikes in my two car garage."

02:30:37   - Well, I mean, I still actually like,

02:30:40   we use our cars in and out of the garage all the time

02:30:43   and we have other things in the garage.

02:30:45   Also like, snowblower and tools and stuff like that.

02:30:49   So it's like, it's hard.

02:30:51   There's not a lot of room in there.

02:30:53   - Oh, that sounds hard.

02:30:54   - If it was at all reasonable to have multiple bikes

02:30:57   in my garage, I would have already ordered one

02:30:59   to tide me over until I get the one I really want,

02:31:01   which is probably like a couple months out, so.

02:31:04   Oh well.

02:31:06   At least this money draining hobby of mine

02:31:08   is making me marginally healthier.

02:31:10   - Yeah, I was also gonna get you hit by a car,

02:31:12   'cause it's not like, you know,

02:31:14   biking on this level ground with no cars trying to kill you.

02:31:19   Now you're in a combat zone now.

02:31:22   - No, I actually have incredibly little interest

02:31:26   in riding on the roads.

02:31:27   - Oh, you're gonna go on the bike trails?

02:31:29   - Yeah, we have a trail very close to our house.

02:31:33   I plan to do a lot of riding on that.

02:31:36   There's also a much larger trail

02:31:39   on the border of our town,

02:31:41   so I have to figure out how do I either get there on a bike

02:31:44   without dying on the roads,

02:31:45   or somehow transport a bike using my car?

02:31:49   And that's a whole thing.

02:31:50   - Bike rack, I'm sure they have bike racks

02:31:52   for the back of your thing.

02:31:54   - They do, but you have to get a tow hook installed first

02:31:57   and getting a token sold on Model S is something

02:31:59   that is possible to do but is not officially supported

02:32:02   and is kind of hard to do and you have to have

02:32:04   a specialty place install it and the dealers

02:32:06   won't do it anymore and so I don't know.

02:32:09   See I started looking into it, I'm like oh God,

02:32:11   this sounds awful so I stopped looking into it.

02:32:14   I think the more likely approach is I'll just throw it

02:32:18   in the back and go alone sometimes

02:32:20   when I don't have a car seat back there.

02:32:21   - Yeah, it could fit.

02:32:22   You don't have the seats back there

02:32:23   so you fold the seats down and you should have

02:32:25   a room back there.

02:32:26   - I was gonna say a roof rack,

02:32:27   but then you need someone's help

02:32:28   to get it off the top of the car, wouldn't you?

02:32:30   (laughing)

02:32:32   I'm serious though, I think I would need someone's help

02:32:33   to get off the top of the car.

02:32:34   It's not easy to like, bikes standing,

02:32:36   it's not like skis on a ski rack

02:32:38   where you just have to be able to reach onto the thing

02:32:39   to get it off.

02:32:40   Getting a big tippy bicycle up there is tricky.

02:32:42   - Oh yeah, 'cause they stand them up,

02:32:43   they don't lie them down, right?

02:32:44   - Yeah. - Oh jeez, yeah.

02:32:45   How do you not hit overpasses and stuff?

02:32:48   I guess they're not that high.

02:32:48   - Oh, yeah. - They're not that high.

02:32:50   - Yeah, now it'll probably fit in the back

02:32:52   of your sort of hatchback but not a hatchback car?

02:32:55   - If I take out the car seat, I bet it'll fit.

02:32:57   With the car seat in, it might not.

02:32:59   'Cause then I can only do the two thirds fold down

02:33:02   with the car seat in, so I don't know,

02:33:03   that probably is not gonna happen.

02:33:04   - Just stick to your local bike drill.

02:33:06   That's the easier way to do it.

02:33:07   - Yeah, but the one that's on the edge of town

02:33:08   is way longer, so I don't know.

02:33:12   - Well, so the real problem is if you ever wanna go

02:33:13   on the big long one, like as a family,

02:33:15   now you gotta fit three bikes and three people,

02:33:17   and now you're into, you gotta call Casey

02:33:19   with his giant truck to help you.

02:33:21   - Exactly.

02:33:22   you couldn't fit that in his truck anyway because you couldn't get it on a roof rack

02:33:24   and there's no room in the tiny little trunk because it's a stupid SUV.

02:33:26   [BEEPING]