0:00:00Someone trying to spell took us and they're spelling it T you Q you a ass it is not derived from Spanish to quads
0:00:06Oh, that is not the way to spell
0:00:08You are the wrong region of the world for the origin of that. That's magnificent
0:00:13I love Sean people to the chat earlier people who truck equals truck ists
0:00:17Somehow I missed that joke
0:00:21That's people who are prejudiced against trucks. We already established that. Yes
0:00:25Like me with the stupid Cherokee with a would you stop with that lowered and big it's so ridiculous
0:00:31It's the worst thing ever didn't I tell this story on neutral?
0:00:34I'm it's it's December in Connecticut and for those who are not aware Connecticut doesn't believe in salting the roads
0:00:40They believe in sanding the roads. So the entire state is just one big sandbox. It's December
0:00:45It's Connecticut and there's sand everywhere and we're at a T, you know, so we have to make either a left or right
0:00:51It's my friend's SRT8 Grand Cherokee and similarly to the Eclipse turbo that we were talking about earlier
0:00:57He looks over and says are you holding on? I'm like what the fuck are you talking about? We're about to do a 90-degree turn
0:01:01Why would I need to hold on? I was like, yeah, okay sure next thing
0:01:05I know he stands on the gas and
0:01:06We make this 90-degree turn like we were getting shot out of a cannon. It was the most amazing thing in the world
0:01:12No, no fast car fine, but like it's like let's make something that is not designed to go fast
0:01:17but let's make it go fast.
0:01:19- No, that's the beauty of it.
0:01:20- There is a perverse thing in that,
0:01:22but in the end it's an abomination.
0:01:23It's just like, let's take a chihuahua,
0:01:26but make it a pack animal.
0:01:28Like, we'll have it carry all our suitcases
0:01:30down to the Grand Canyon.
0:01:31And if you could do that, it's like,
0:01:32wow, that's the world's strongest chihuahua,
0:01:33but like, that is the wrong tool for the job.
0:01:36- That is a terrible analogy.
0:01:37I am disappointed.
0:01:38You are usually so good at coming up with decent analogies
0:01:43in a way that I am terrible.
0:01:44- It was reversed, because I'm taking the small thing
0:01:46making it big, but it's like making a hippo dance.
0:01:48That's what you're trying to do,
0:01:49and it's just, like, why would you do that?
0:01:52There's perfectly good cars that are not big, tall,
0:01:54tippy, gross things made to go off-road.
0:01:56They want to go fast.
0:01:58The Jeep Cherokee doesn't want to go fast.
0:02:00What are you doing?
0:02:01Oh, and they lower it.
0:02:02They take a car with good ground clearance,
0:02:04and then you lower it.
0:02:05What are you even doing?
0:02:07Why?
0:02:07You're just ruining a car.
0:02:09- No, it's porque no los dos.
0:02:10Why can't you have both?
0:02:11Why can't you have this convenient car that's--
0:02:14- Because you can't,
0:02:15because the thing is like 17 feet high and rolls over.
0:02:17You can't. - No, it doesn't.
0:02:19I just explained to you.
0:02:20We did a 90 degree turn at like 30.
0:02:21- You can lower it as much as you want.
0:02:23The center of gravity of that car is not the same
0:02:25as the center of gravity of a sports car that's down low.
0:02:28- So if somebody offered you a Porsche,
0:02:31it's not the Cayman, the Cayenne.
0:02:34The Cayenne Turbo. - And the McCann
0:02:35is the even bigger one.
0:02:36I would sell it and use that money
0:02:37to probably not buy a better car.
0:02:39But if I was forced to, if I was forced to,
0:02:41I said, "You have to get a car,"
0:02:42I would immediately sell it
0:02:43I would use that money to buy a million other cars that I'd rather have why why do you hate fun John?
0:02:49Why do you hate fun?
0:02:50And what's the next suggestion a monster truck Ferrari? Why can't I have both look it's like a Ferrari?
0:02:54But also you can crush cars with it. No now it's bad
0:02:57What have you done and a monster truck Ferrari would still look cooler than that Jeep?
0:03:02Hate you so much and yet I don't
0:03:11So we should get this show started and as per usual we have to start with some follow-up and you know
0:03:17Here's the thing you guys we've been doing the show for what almost three and a half years now
0:03:22is that right because it was 2013 if I'm not mistaken and
0:03:25And you know, I knew both of you guys pretty well when we started I knew Marco a little bit better
0:03:30But I knew both you guys pretty well, but had you told me in in 2013?
0:03:34Yeah, you know you're still gonna be doing this in 2017. I'd probably been like that's surprising but okay
0:03:40I'll believe it. If you had told me in 2013, "Well, you will have multiple episodes of follow-up about Marco's hindquarters,"
0:03:46I'm not sure I would have believed that one.
0:03:49He's got a horse. I don't know if he has hindquarters, exactly.
0:03:52Marco's tushy.
0:03:55I was gonna go with tushy.
0:03:57We keep riffing on all the different-- his posterior, his derriere, his fanny, but fanny means something different in the UK, so.
0:04:04You really did grow up in a mixed environment if you know tuchus. I'm very proud of you, John.
0:04:09Tush is derived from that, I think. It's all just, you know.
0:04:12Well, anyway, so let's talk about Marcos Tuckus. Why don't you tell me about whether
0:04:17cushioned saddles are good or bad? And I don't know if I'm talking to Marco or John, but
0:04:21whoever put this in the show knows.
0:04:22I'm talking to me. So this is from Ahmad Al-Hashimi, who says, "Cushioned saddles are bad." You
0:04:26can tell it's a bike person when they say "saddles," because regular people call them
0:04:31seats, but "bike-ist," does Mark say. Mark. Marco, whatever that guy's name is. They're
0:04:36They're good dogs, Mark.
0:04:37They're saddles.
0:04:38Anyway, he says, "When you sit on a large cushion seat, the cushioning material ensures
0:04:44pressure is placed over the entire region.
0:04:46It goes into the nooks and crannies between your thighs and finds all the sensitive areas
0:04:50to ensure maximum pressure."
0:04:52Yikes.
0:04:53"What you want instead," and this was repeated by many people who sent in feedback, but I
0:04:59just picked this one as representative.
0:05:00"What you want instead is contact at your sit bones and nothing else."
0:05:03Did you know you have sit bones?
0:05:04If you read the dozens of emails that talk about sit bones that were sent to our show,
0:05:09you would know.
0:05:10Yeah.
0:05:11I thought this was a term the first person was making up, but then we got multiple people
0:05:14telling us about sit bones.
0:05:16Apparently, I mean, I haven't done any more medical research on this topic, but multiple
0:05:19people seem to think these are real things.
0:05:22Yeah.
0:05:23And so he says, with some honesty, soreness at the contact areas, ideally the sit bones,
0:05:26is to be expected for the new cyclist.
0:05:28By the way, many people wrote in to tell Marco that it's not a bikist, as if he didn't know
0:05:32that.
0:05:33Sometimes it's hard to tell if Arko's joking.
0:05:35I myself have difficulty sometimes.
0:05:37But rest assured, he knows.
0:05:39Bicus is a bad joke.
0:05:41He likens it to the soreness in your feet when you first start using a standing desk.
0:05:47Numbness is much more ominous sign.
0:05:49It means pressure is being placed on the wrong spots, cutting off blood supply or pressing unnerved.
0:05:52So the consensus seems to be, padding aside, what you want is most of your weight to be on these sit bones
0:06:00and not sort of distributed across all the different parts because then no
0:06:05matter how you sit it's like squishing all your soft tissues together and
0:06:08cutting off blood flow whereas apparently I'm guessing there's a path
0:06:12from the sit bones you know it's kind of like jacking a car put it that way when
0:06:16you jack up a car you put it on the jack points you don't take the jack and put
0:06:18it in a soft squishy part underneath your car and start cranking it because
0:06:21bad things will happen so anyway I debated even putting this in here but I
0:06:26feel like this is good information for other people who are getting into
0:06:30bikes or not into bikes and are wondering about bike seat stuff, there was very loud
0:06:35consensus that it's all about you and your sit bones and then making good contact and
0:06:38that not having pressure on other places. So, there you go.
0:06:42Thank you for all the bikest for your feedback about my James Damore.
0:06:48It sounds like they're like, yeah, well, it sounds like they're prejudiced against bikes,
0:06:51they're bikest.
0:06:53(laughing)
0:06:55- Nice.
0:06:56Speaking of jacking up cars,
0:06:57it always drove me nuts because anytime I wanted to jack up,
0:07:01I think it was the Subaru, I don't think it was the BMW,
0:07:03the official jack point for the rear of the car
0:07:06was to jack up by the rear differential,
0:07:08which just seems like a terrible idea to me.
0:07:12They were like, "Yeah, just put it onto the rear pumpkin
0:07:13"and go to town, you'll be fine."
0:07:15Just seems bananas.
0:07:16- Probably a pretty strong part of the car.
0:07:17I mean, I presumably didn't know
0:07:19what they're talking about.
0:07:20They made the car, they're not gonna, you know.
0:07:21- I know, one would think,
0:07:22But it just struck me as wrong.
0:07:24Anyway, Mo Rubinsal wants to talk about Backblaze backup limits and also wants to know, "How
0:07:30do folks back up their applications folder?
0:07:32Because Backblaze exempts it and restructuring it would be hell."
0:07:36I don't.
0:07:37Or at least, I don't think I would want to.
0:07:40Because if I wanted to back everything up in my applications folder, I would rather
0:07:46just recreate it by hand, because I don't think I want any of this stuff in there.
0:07:49In fact, one of my favorite blog posts that I wrote, which is mostly for myself, as kind
0:07:54of a long-term memory, but it's talking about here's all the things I would install when
0:08:00reinstalling a new Mac, or starting a new Mac.
0:08:03So I used that for the Mac with Adorable, I used it for the 5K iMac.
0:08:07I don't use Migration Assistant, generally speaking, because even though it's unlike
0:08:11the Windows when I was using Windows, and this is probably Marco's era as well, that
0:08:15had to reinstall everything, we had to just destroy everything and start anew every six
0:08:20months to clear out all the cruft that just magically appears. You know, Mac OS is not
0:08:25like that, but when I get a new machine, eh, it's time.
0:08:29>> Yeah, I also don't ever back up my applications folder unless it's like from like automatically
0:08:35doing it from things like Time Machine or a disk clone. I think the main advantage to
0:08:39backing up your applications folder is if you're literally just cloning your entire
0:08:43and if you want fast recovery after a disaster.
0:08:47And there is definitely a role for that.
0:08:50You should have some, like one of your backup methods
0:08:52should be like a straight up copy of your entire disc
0:08:56because then if you do have a disc failure,
0:08:58you can restore that onto a new disc or a new computer
0:09:01very quickly compared to downloading things
0:09:03off of an internet backup.
0:09:05An internet backup is like a last resort
0:09:07because it is slower, it goes over the internet,
0:09:10you might have limited upstream
0:09:12so you might not want to upload every single thing
0:09:14you have on your disk if you can easily get it
0:09:16through other means.
0:09:18So there is definitely a role for including
0:09:21applications folders in backups, but I totally see
0:09:24why it's not included in Backblaze's cloud backup by default.
0:09:28Again, we should disclose that Backblaze
0:09:31is a frequent sponsor of our show,
0:09:33but I'm saying this probably to defend them,
0:09:36but also not because they are paying us sometimes,
0:09:40but simply because I think that it makes sense
0:09:44to exclude that for a cloud backup
0:09:45because the purpose of cloud backup is like last resort
0:09:48where, and applications folders are really easy
0:09:51to reconstruct with just time.
0:09:53You're not permanently losing data there,
0:09:55you're just losing some time to redownload applications,
0:09:58reinstall applications and everything.
0:09:59But yeah, for a full disk copy method
0:10:02like Time Machine or Super Duper, Carbon Copy Clone
0:10:05or things like that, any kind of disk cloning method,
0:10:07it makes sense to include that, just for speed of recovery.
0:10:11- So we talked about this a long time ago,
0:10:12one of our earlier shows about backups.
0:10:14I think it was when we were all just started
0:10:16using Backblaze, actually even before
0:10:17maybe they sponsored the show.
0:10:18- It was.
0:10:19- This is, I was discussing like the fact
0:10:21that Backblaze excludes a lot of stuff.
0:10:23And they had like a hard coded,
0:10:25they have a thing where you can say what you want to exclude,
0:10:27but they have a hard coded exclude list
0:10:29and it excluded stuff that I wanted backed up.
0:10:31So at that time I hacked up whatever XML file
0:10:34they had buried somewhere in the /library folder,
0:10:37not the home directory one, but the one at the top level of the disk.
0:10:39There was some XML file somewhere that you could mess with to make it back up things
0:10:44that are in the quote unquote hard-quoted exclude list.
0:10:49And I think that technique still works, and it's just as unsupported and dangerous and
0:10:56do at your own risk, but it is a thing that I do.
0:10:59Frequently that file moves around and changes or whatever, but I'm pretty sure it's still
0:11:02working for me.
0:11:05So basically you can make backblaze back up stuff that it says it doesn't want to back
0:11:09up if you're willing to live a little dangerously.
0:11:14But like Mark said, you should just be losing time.
0:11:16Because applications, it's annoying, but none of your data is there.
0:11:20You didn't write those applications, right?
0:11:22And these days, the chances are very good that you have some reasonably convenient way
0:11:28to get those applications back.
0:11:30The company you bought it from has some record that you bought it.
0:11:32They can let you re-download it.
0:11:33Even if it came on plastic disks, I'm hoping you're saving those plastic disks somewhere.
0:11:37And if you're not saving them, I'm hoping you can contact the vendor that you bought
0:11:40it from and say, "Hey, my house burned down.
0:11:41I lost my plastic disks and I got the software back."
0:11:44But realistically speaking, most applications you're going to want to launch these days,
0:11:47you have to be able to download them some way.
0:11:49And if you can download them, there's probably some record on their servers about the fact
0:11:52that you own it.
0:11:53So it may be annoying, but like Margo said, if you find yourself restoring from an internet
0:11:58backup, many, many things have gone wrong and you're probably just so happy that you
0:12:01have your precious data preserved in any form that you're not, you know, you're
0:12:04gonna be spending like days and days possibly weeks restoring anyway so don't
0:12:08worry about it but yeah but I but I because it's unlimited backups I'm like
0:12:11you know what go ahead back up my applications folder why not. So crash plan
0:12:16does have a native client for Macs maybe so we've got a lot of feedback saying
0:12:23that the enterprise crash plan client is actually native and if you recall one of
0:12:28One of the things that really drives me freaking bananas about CrashPlan as a consumer is that
0:12:34it's a Java-based, cross-platform, utter garbage app.
0:12:39I guess saying Java-based and utter garbage is redundant, but here we are.
0:12:43That joke will never stop being funny, I'm sorry.
0:12:45So anyway.
0:12:46And we got zero negative feedback on it.
0:12:47I know.
0:12:48I'm surprised.
0:12:49I'm not.
0:12:50So anyway, there's been a lot of people coming to us saying, "Hey, the Enterprise client
0:12:56is actually native."
0:12:57it may not be so bad once you do the migration.
0:13:00Except maybe not.
0:13:01So Phil Stollery wrote in to say to us
0:13:03that he just upgraded to CrashPlan for small business,
0:13:06which, to be fair, is not necessarily
0:13:08the same as Enterprise.
0:13:10And he said it's the same crappy Java app.
0:13:12And he said that he was only allowed
0:13:14to use version 4.9, which I guess is still Java,
0:13:17not the Enterprise version, which is 6.x.
0:13:20So tread carefully.
0:13:22I still haven't taken any action on my backup strategy
0:13:25yet because I'm procrastinating and sticking my head in the sand like an ostrich trying
0:13:29to pretend that it's not an issue. But be wary that things may not be all roses and
0:13:36daffodils in the crash plan for small business category.
0:13:39I'm wondering how you can get, if it's possible to get that native version even if you're a small
0:13:46business customer. But I've been running the Java version forever and I said it's not,
0:13:49like it doesn't bother me. I don't see the application. I just see the icon in the menu
0:13:53your bar it's probably using a lot more memory and CPU than I want but it has pretty good
0:13:56controls about you can tell it don't even start doing a backup unless the machine has
0:14:00been idle for a certain period of time you can always stop it if it's in the middle of
0:14:03doing something and honestly with a with a big Mac with lots of RAM and an SSD you just
0:14:09don't notice it running even though it's a bloated Java application and you know it's
0:14:13probably doing ridiculous things and if you bring up activity monitor you may get sad
0:14:16about it but you know you can always pause it and tell it not to run now and then just
0:14:20do your stuff and then let it run when you're away where you don't have to see what it's
0:14:23doing to your computer? Fair enough. Speaking of CrashPlan, there is a 5 terabyte migration
0:14:29limit, which I was not aware of. So this is a CrashPlan support article entitled "Migrate
0:14:34Your CrashPlan for Home Accounts to CrashPlan for Small Business." It's dated a little over
0:14:39a week ago. And it says that, "Hey, your backup, do my backups continue automatically?" And
0:14:46the backup type, "Cloud backups to CrashPlan Central," CrashPlan Central being their cloud
0:14:50offering. Does it continue? Yes, except very large backups over 5 terabytes. And just seconds
0:14:55ago I took a look to see how big my latest backup was to CrashPlane Central. Would anyone
0:15:00like to guess how big it was?
0:15:01>> 5.1.
0:15:02>> 5.3 terabytes, woo!
0:15:04>> 3, yeah. I'm just under 5. I'm like 4.8 or something, so I'm happy. I've already done
0:15:09this conversion. It already updated my client. It updated my client to the--it's still the
0:15:13Java client, but the color scheme is different. I'm pretty sure that's the only change.
0:15:16>> Oh, interesting.
0:15:17>> So I'm running 4.9 or whatever. But yeah, it just continued my backups.
0:15:19Oh man, that's, that's, I'm jealous.
0:15:24Because apparently I'm, so it's not that I can't use this new home and business, or small
0:15:28business thing, but apparently I'm going to have to re-upload everything.
0:15:31Hooray.
0:15:32Maybe you should contact them and say, "Very large backups over 5 terabytes?
0:15:37Well, I'm a little bit over.
0:15:39Like how, how, you know, can't you just, you know, grandfather me in?
0:15:44I'm close."
0:15:45Like, I don't know.
0:15:46Yeah, something like that.
0:15:47I don't know.
0:15:48I'm sad.
0:15:49I'm sad. I need to take action on this. I just, I really don't want to. I just want
0:15:53it to go away. And ignoring it does not make it go away, but I wish it did.
0:15:58All right. So ARQ versus Backblaze versus Crash Plan on saving Mac metadata. So this
0:16:05is something I've never paid attention to because I don't really care enough, even
0:16:09though I probably should. So as the person who is most likely to care about this, John,
0:16:14why don't you tell me about what's going on here?
0:16:16This was a larger story like maybe two years ago.
0:16:19I think Backblaze was starting to come to prominence and Arc was a lot newer than it
0:16:24is now.
0:16:25And one of Arc's big selling points was, "Hey, we back up all your Mac metadata, like every
0:16:30little bit of it, all the labels and the dates and the comment field and like every little
0:16:34weird bit, the finder flags and all the other stuff, we back it all up."
0:16:38And there's another program, I'm not sure if it's associated with Arc, if it's written
0:16:41by the same guy or if it's totally independent, but it called Backup Bouncer that was trying
0:16:45to say, if you make a backup and restore the backup,
0:16:50is it exactly like it was before, down to the bit,
0:16:52down to every single piece of metadata?
0:16:55And you could care more or less about different things
0:16:58at various times.
0:16:59People who use labels, like Mac OS's labels,
0:17:03where you can label your items in the Finder
0:17:05with different colors and give the colors
0:17:06names and stuff like that.
0:17:08If you use that extensively, or tags,
0:17:11which is the expansion of labels,
0:17:13If you use that stuff extensively and you do a backup,
0:17:16but that's how you organize your files, right?
0:17:18And you do a backup and you restore
0:17:19and all that stuff is gone,
0:17:21that is essentially data loss for you.
0:17:22So you care a lot about that metadata.
0:17:26Backup Bouncer is down to the bit thing.
0:17:28I remember like SuperDuper would fail on Backup Bouncer
0:17:31because it didn't restore permissions on things
0:17:34that didn't have the rights to restore,
0:17:37like it changed the ownership or changed some,
0:17:40like it's very picky about exactly what you wanna have,
0:17:43But the general line from these companies about why their products don't do well on
0:17:49BackupBouncer is like, "Well, we are not a bit-for-bit imaging system.
0:17:54We are a data backup solution.
0:17:57So you're not going to get your disk back bit-for-bit exactly how it was.
0:18:00You're just going to get your data back."
0:18:02CrashPlan reportedly backs up metadata better than Backblaze.
0:18:06Backblaze drops almost all of it on the floor and just backs up your data.
0:18:10CrashPlan does better.
0:18:11is apparently 100%, like it'll get every single little bit
0:18:14'cause that's, you know, it's the bespoke,
0:18:17artisanal handcrafted backup program just for Mac users.
0:18:20And a lot of people ask me how I feel about this
0:18:22since I love all my metadata and everything.
0:18:23Well, one of the reasons is I don't use labels and tags,
0:18:26A, is because I know how they're implemented and it's gross,
0:18:28but B, I fear how that stuff will,
0:18:33if that stuff will survive.
0:18:34So I wouldn't want to rely on it
0:18:36and then have it get lost in some kind of backup thing.
0:18:39And like we said before, online backup is absolutely the last resort.
0:18:43So it being the lowest fidelity backup I have, SuperDuper being the highest
0:18:46fidelity where it's pretty much exactly bit for bit the disk that I had.
0:18:52Time machine kind of being in the middle and then backblaze being the lowest
0:18:56fidelity.
0:18:56I'm okay with that, right?
0:18:58There's trade-offs.
0:18:59You're paying $5 a month to store some obscene amount of memory on someone else's
0:19:03server.
0:19:03You know, I'm, I understand again, if that, if I find myself restoring from that so
0:19:09So many things have gone wrong that I just accept that, you know, every little bit of
0:19:13metadata won't be there.
0:19:14But because of that, I also don't use the metadata for any, it's not an essential part
0:19:19of my workflow for organizing my files.
0:19:20Just because so many things, not just backup software, but so many things are not, won't
0:19:26honor and copy that metadata.
0:19:27Like the Apple's own CP commands and MV commands and stuff will for the most part honor it.
0:19:32But lots of other tools, like even if you install the third party build of our sync
0:19:35and haven't compiled it with the right options that might not bring your extended attributes
0:19:39over unless you don't pass the right flags and stuff.
0:19:41I just can't rely on myself to be careful to preserve that stuff, so I never put in
0:19:45anything I really care about in metadata like that, which is sad because I wish it was pervasive
0:19:51and supported everywhere, but the lowest common denominator, which is a mathematically incorrect
0:19:55expression, but you all know what I mean, is so much lower than what it is on the Mac.
0:20:00So the common set of metadata that you can be confident is going to survive everywhere
0:20:05is higher than it has ever been, but still way lower than what macOS supports. So backup programs,
0:20:13being on that lower end, I just accept as another sad reality, just like, file name extensions.
0:20:18Sorry, Jon.
0:20:19Someday we'll get there. Someday we'll find it, the rainbow connection.
0:20:23That went right over my head.
0:20:26I know I've heard it before. I think it's a Beatles lyric?
0:20:29Have you — yeah, close, close, Margot. Have you shown Adam the Muppet Movie?
0:20:34Oh, there we go. No.
0:20:37Yeah, it's a little bit slow pace for kids because it's like a 70s movie and movies were slower back
0:20:42then, but still got some good songs. You know what I loved? Charles Bronson was in like the
0:20:49Great Muppet Caper or something like that. It was another Muppets movie. I forget what the official
0:20:54title was, but I remember loving that as a kid and like many years ago I watched it with Aaron
0:21:00and you know as an adult and I was like oh this movie is not that good.
0:21:03The original NOM movie though is very sweet and has good songs in it and has good production
0:21:08values and Kermit rides a bicycle so Marco can watch it and feel some kinship.
0:21:11What kind of saddle does he use?
0:21:13Yeah it's hard to tell.
0:21:14Is he properly fit on his sit bones?
0:21:16I don't know if frogs have sit bones.
0:21:18I'm still not sure if people have sit bones.
0:21:20Technically he's got someone's hand up his butt but through the magic of special effects
0:21:26he's riding a bike.
0:21:27It's pretty cool.
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0:23:23All right, so let's talk about—a lot of people have written in with a lot of anger
0:23:32about Backblaze's 30-day retention policy.
0:23:36So this is something that I could not possibly care less about, but there's a lot of very
0:23:42grumpy people about it.
0:23:43So if I understand things right, Backblaze has said, if you have a, say, external hard
0:23:51drive that is physically connected to your computer and thus qualifies for Backblaze
0:23:56backups, if you don't plug it in every 30 days, then they will delete those backups.
0:24:03So let's say, you know, I have an external hard drive that has a bunch of pictures on
0:24:08it.
0:24:09If I don't plug it in at least once a month, at the end of a month, if I haven't plugged
0:24:12it in, Backblaze will delete all those files.
0:24:15And there's a lot of people that are really, really grumpy about this that have written
0:24:18us and are like, "Why aren't you talking about this?
0:24:20How can you let this stand?
0:24:22I just don't care.
0:24:24I don't understand why people think it's acceptable
0:24:27for Backblaze to hold onto this data in perpetuity
0:24:30just because they're paying them $5 a month
0:24:34or whatever it is.
0:24:34- Crash Plan does it for $10 a month.
0:24:36I mean, it all comes down to the business model.
0:24:38- Oh, they did it.
0:24:39- Backblaze, the corporate,
0:24:40for $10 is the new plan that they are doing, right?
0:24:43So Backblaze has been on Twitter talking to people
0:24:46and they say like,
0:24:47"Oh, we consider revisiting this policy, blah, blah, blah."
0:24:49But yeah, it just comes down to the economics.
0:24:50If this is a way for Backblaze to make it
0:24:54so they don't lose money and cancel this plan,
0:24:56because you can imagine just hooking up every hard drive
0:25:00you have and pushing it up
0:25:01and then just never reconnecting it.
0:25:02I'd do it because I keep most of my hard drives unmounted.
0:25:05And occasionally Backblaze yells at me
0:25:07and tells me I haven't mounted one in a while.
0:25:08I just mount it and it's fine.
0:25:09Like it sends you a reminder.
0:25:10You're not gonna not know that it's happening.
0:25:12But if Backblaze wanted to like revisit this,
0:25:15what they would have to do is say,
0:25:17you can store as much as you want,
0:25:18but now we're gonna have to charge you
0:25:19on some sort of usage basis.
0:25:21Maybe there's a flat fee up to a certain size,
0:25:23but once you get beyond that,
0:25:24you have to pay an additional X number of dollars
0:25:26for a different, you know what I mean?
0:25:28Like it doesn't have to be exactly a la carte,
0:25:29you pay for every byte like S3.
0:25:31It can still be the insurance model
0:25:33where everybody pays the same amount
0:25:35and most people do very little,
0:25:36but a few people do a lot and it all evens out,
0:25:38like that's their business model.
0:25:39To support your ability to just hook up a hard drive,
0:25:42two terabyte hard drive once,
0:25:44let it back up over the course of the week
0:25:45and then file it away in a shelf,
0:25:47confident that those two terabytes will be there forever,
0:25:49Backblaze will store those two terabytes for you no problem.
0:25:51You just gotta give them enough money
0:25:52to make it worth their while.
0:25:54And how much more do you have to give it
0:25:55than $5 a month?
0:25:56I don't know, they can figure out how the math works.
0:25:58But for all the people asking for that feature,
0:26:00it's going to cost you more money.
0:26:02And I think those people will be willing to cost more money.
0:26:03So I think Backblaze should come up with a plan
0:26:06that has slightly different policies,
0:26:08that is priced slightly differently,
0:26:10and for its extreme users, they would use that.
0:26:13They would get more money out of the extreme users.
0:26:15And I think they would just have happy customers overall, because most people don't care about
0:26:18this, but the people who do, as we noted, are very worked up about it.
0:26:23So Backblaze, you're leaving money on the table.
0:26:25Go take some money from the people who want their stuff to be stored forever.
0:26:29I think one of the main roots of that anger is like, you know, Backblaze advertises unlimited.
0:26:36And unlimited in computers is never really unlimited.
0:26:40There's always exceptions to that, because it's impossible to build a business on being
0:26:44truly unlimited. It's easy to understand business models that don't claim to be unlimited and
0:26:53just show you their pricing and their limits right up front. I think the people who are
0:26:57angry about that are probably angry because they expect truly unlimited because that's
0:27:03how it's advertised. This is an exception to that. I think you put it well, that's why
0:27:11they're able to stay in business is because of limitations like that that are, I think,
0:27:15pretty reasonable limitations.
0:27:16Yeah, and like I said, it's not a secret. They're gonna pop dialogues in your faces.
0:27:19I think they pop the first dialogues in like 10 days or 14 days like, "Hey, I haven't seen
0:27:23this disc in 10 days. Perhaps you want to plug it back in." Like, they're not secretly
0:27:27trying to delete all your data, but this is the way the economics work for $5. You can
0:27:32really store as much as you want for $5, but you can't, like, briefly connect a hard drive
0:27:36to your computer. Like, have your friends come and bring their hard drives. Hook them
0:27:40to your computer, let them back up, and then take their hardware back to their house and
0:27:42never visit it again. Now you have a permanent backup of their stuff just in case they lose
0:27:45it. Like that's the model they're trying to avoid. People just, you know, using it as
0:27:50a weigh station to drop off a couple terabytes, right? That's not sustainable for $5 a month
0:27:55flat fee.
0:27:56Yep. So a lot of other people have written in and said, "Hey, you know, I don't know
0:28:02if you guys were aware, but you all have Synologies." And Synology does have a peer-to-peer backup
0:28:09system, strategy, etc. Why don't you do that? And I will be the bad guy and say, I don't
0:28:16want to share my space with you two jerks. And it's mine and I don't want to share. And
0:28:21I would probably, if either of you asked me, be willing to offer up what I could. But last
0:28:30I heard, Jon, you said last episode or the one before.
0:28:32Jon Sorrentino There's no room in the end. I don't have
0:28:35a square to spare. Insert your own reference here.
0:28:37Yeah, exactly. So John doesn't have any excess space to offer, and thus if you don't have
0:28:46any excess space, I won't have enough to offer you a backup. Marco and I maybe could set
0:28:51this up, but I don't know. I feel like this is the sort of thing where I should be paying
0:28:57a company to handle this for me, which is what I will probably end up doing. And I don't
0:29:05feel comfortable asking even you guys, who I think would probably say, you know, all
0:29:09things being equal, would probably say, "Yeah, sure, you can back up to mysology." I don't
0:29:13feel comfortable talking to you guys about it, let alone, you know, anyone else I might
0:29:17know. So I don't really view this as a reasonable option for me, but maybe I'm just being a
0:29:22big baby.
0:29:23Yeah, I don't, it's not a reasonable option for most people, and I wouldn't say yes, because
0:29:27I don't want the responsibility of holding your data. Like, the whole point of cloud
0:29:30backup is I want it to be far away from my house so if the house burns down it's
0:29:34okay and I want it to be someplace where it's somebody's job to make sure my data
0:29:40is actually there. A lot of people do this where they do a hard drive and back
0:29:44it up and put it at a relative's house that is better than nothing I'm not
0:29:47going to discourage you from doing that but in that situation and I've been in
0:29:50many times what always happens is you forget to keep bringing the hard drive
0:29:55back and forth because it's a pain and if it's network based like oh you don't
0:29:58have to do that. It's all magic over the network. Is the person at the other end invested in
0:30:03making sure that your backup continues to be successful and that the hard drive that's
0:30:08doing it isn't filling up or doesn't have some bad sectors and stuff like that? It's
0:30:11not their job. And they don't want to be responsible for that. And if something goes wrong, now
0:30:15you're mad at a friend or a relative. And there have been products on Kickstarter and
0:30:19stuff that try to do with strangers. Like, "We'll all share our data and it'll be a big
0:30:22distributed P2P cloud. So far that hasn't worked out. It's a good idea. I think if space
0:30:28was cheaper and bandwidth was more, it would work out. But right now I heartily recommend
0:30:33sending your data to some company whose job it is to make sure your data is safe. It doesn't
0:30:37mean the company is going to be perfect either. But A, if the company screws things up, you
0:30:41can feel fine about being mad at the company. B, you can sue the company. Maybe, probably
0:30:45not because of their user agreement. But anyway, you can get as mad as you want about them.
0:30:49They have deep pockets, so if you want some sort of recourse, you can get it.
0:30:52You would never want to be in this relationship with a relative or a friend where through
0:30:56some fault that you will argue about, your offsite backup is corrupt or not there or
0:31:03something goes wrong or whatever.
0:31:05And then people being bitter about the hard drive space you're using, that they want to
0:31:08reclaim that to put more of their ripped Blu-rays on.
0:31:11It is not a relationship you want to be in.
0:31:15I do not recommend this, even though there's lots of good software for it that makes it
0:31:18easy. But like I said, all that said, if that's your only option, like if that's the only thing
0:31:24you can do, whether it's carrying hard drives back and forth in a car or having your two
0:31:27Synologies to talk to each other, it is better than nothing, but I really recommend making a
0:31:32company do it. You know, I think I would almost feel, not even almost, I think I would probably
0:31:38feel more comfortable saying to one of you guys, "I am shipping a Synology to your house,
0:31:44a second Synology." I don't want to run your Synology. I don't want to run your hardware
0:31:48in my house. It's hard enough for me to run my own stuff. My kid's gonna spill peanut
0:31:52butter on it, my basement's gonna flood, the mice are gonna poop in it, it's just no.
0:31:57I totally understand that, yeah. Yeah, I also don't want the responsibility. It's much less
0:32:03about the physical having the hardware or having the space or the money required to
0:32:10run and power it. It's more about I don't want you to depend on this box in my house
0:32:16connected, you know, in my garage,
0:32:18that's probably overheating itself slowly.
0:32:20Like, I don't need the stress of that.
0:32:23And I would hate to be in a position
0:32:27where your stuff went bad and you were depending on me
0:32:30and this thing being perfectly operating in my house
0:32:32to fix that.
0:32:33And talk about like, you know,
0:32:35that's fine for the three of us.
0:32:37Like, most people don't have friends
0:32:39with giant NAS boxes in their garages or closements.
0:32:42Like, this is not a generalizable solution.
0:32:45It barely would even work for us.
0:32:48And we have giant NAS boxes with giant hard drives
0:32:51and fast internet connections, and we're all friends.
0:32:54Most people don't have that kind of setup,
0:32:56and even the ones like us who do
0:32:58probably shouldn't do that if we have other options.
0:33:01- I think it's safer to lend people money
0:33:03than to store their backups.
0:33:05(laughing)
0:33:06Because if you give people money,
0:33:07you can just say, "This is just a gift.
0:33:08"You never have to pay me back.
0:33:09"Here it is, we're friends."
0:33:10Whereas the data, it's like,
0:33:12"You're keeping this safe for me, right?"
0:33:14Like it's easier to keep people's children safe than their data because you forget the
0:33:19stupid hard drive is there, you forget if it's still running, you forget if things are
0:33:23going bad, the person on the other end doesn't know that their thing is failing because you
0:33:27have some -- it's just -- it's not -- you are not a data center.
0:33:30You don't have a climate control thing with aisles and aisles of racked computers, you
0:33:35know, like you just -- you don't have that.
0:33:37You don't have redundant power backups.
0:33:39You don't -- just you're not in the business of being a backup thing.
0:33:42So it's just going to be sad all around because if something goes wrong, then what do you
0:33:47do?
0:33:48You just sit there and try not to blame each other, but then you do feel bad about it.
0:33:51I feel like it's a much better feeling for you to back up stuff to back blaze and then
0:33:55all your data goes corrupt on back blaze at the last moment.
0:33:57Then you just be righteously mad at back blaze.
0:33:59Being mad at cooperation is what Americans are best at.
0:34:01We don't want to ruin your relationships.
0:34:03Just I'm never flying Delta again.
0:34:05Like you can do that all you want and be fine.
0:34:07You don't want to sacrifice your personal relationships, but you'll keep you vibrant
0:34:11and extend your life according to all the studies.
0:34:13Yeah, it's funny you bring that up because the unfortunately named Pahishfood in the
0:34:18chat said backing up each other's storage is like lending money. Don't do it with your
0:34:22friends, do it with the business, and I agree with that.
0:34:24Like I said, I think lending money is better because you can say it's better than backing
0:34:29up because lending money you can lend it and say, "Oh, well, I'm pretending this is a loan,
0:34:33but in my heart of hearts I'm realizing this is a gift," and just say, "I never expect
0:34:36to see this money back and I'll be fine with it because it's a nice thing to do." There's
0:34:39There's no ongoing relationship where you're like maintaining that money for the person
0:34:42or anything.
0:34:43It'd be more like if they gave you, instead of putting their money into savings, they
0:34:46gave the money to you to invest, then that would be the kind of responsibility you're
0:34:50getting for data.
0:34:51It's like, and then they come back and say, "How's all that money I gave you?
0:34:54How's that investment going?"
0:34:55You're like, "Eh."
0:34:56Yeah.
0:34:57It's going okay.
0:34:58And then they get mad at you.
0:34:59"Why didn't you do a better job of investing my money?"
0:35:02It's like, "Just why didn't you not make me do this?"
0:35:06No.
0:35:07No.
0:35:08Yeah, and I mean, to be clear, I agree with you that lending money to a friend is maybe
0:35:14not the best thing in the world, but it is way better than being a backup strategy.
0:35:19So to hopefully come to the end of this, there's only a couple more things about backups.
0:35:23Jon, tell me about Synology C2 backups.
0:35:26This is still in beta, and it is apparently a Synology thing.
0:35:29I think it's only in Germany too, so it's not really relevant to us, but Synology has
0:35:32their own.
0:35:33Everyone wants to riff on S3.
0:35:34You got B2, and now you got C2.
0:35:36we're running out of letters and number combos here.
0:35:39Your Synology will do a backup of itself
0:35:42to Synology's own cloud storage.
0:35:44Are they just reselling S3?
0:35:45I have no idea.
0:35:46But anyway, if everyone wanted to know, that's a thing.
0:35:48We'll put the link in the show notes
0:35:49if you have a Synology and you're interested
0:35:50in looking at the C2 beta,
0:35:51especially if you live near Frankfurt, Germany
0:35:53or wherever the hell this is, check it out.
0:35:55- Yeah, it's expensive though.
0:35:59- Maybe they are reselling S3.
0:36:01It's 70 euros per terabyte per year.
0:36:06So that's $83-ish, according to DuckDuckGo,
0:36:10per terabyte, and if I have five,
0:36:12that's $415 a year for me.
0:36:14That is not inexpensive.
0:36:16- Yeah, I think Backblaze B2 is still probably
0:36:19the cheapest option I know of for actual pay-per-gig,
0:36:24but otherwise, you know, unlimited in usage
0:36:26as long as you pay for it kind of thing.
0:36:29I don't know of anything cheaper than B2 yet, but I'm happy to hear suggestions.
0:36:33Yeah.
0:36:34Additionally, a friend of the show, Dan Morin, has written a post for Macworld, which is
0:36:39apparently still a thing, saying why the Mac needs iCloud backup.
0:36:43So why not, I guess, right?
0:36:46I mean, iCloud is foolproof and definitely is a justifiable use, is backing up all of
0:36:51your data that you cannot possibly lose.
0:36:53Why wouldn't that work?
0:36:54It's backing up a lot of data.
0:36:55A lot of iOS devices are backed up.
0:36:57It's not like that only Apple knows for sure how many of them. I mean you get some amount
0:37:01of iCloud backup stuff. I forget. It's some obscenely small amount that you get free.
0:37:04Five gigs? I think it's five gigs, yeah.
0:37:07Right. But anyway, and you could pay for more. But the Mac just doesn't have that. And this
0:37:11is just one of those cases where the Mac doesn't have a feature that iOS has had for years
0:37:14and years. And a lot of people asked about like when is Apple going to do iCloud backup
0:37:19for the Mac. It seems inevitable if they eventually get around to it because they already do iCloud
0:37:23backups. It's not a new business. They would do the same model of giving you a useless
0:37:27amount of storage for free and then you pay for more and I bet people would use it because
0:37:32why shouldn't Apple be in the cloud backup business for all of its devices? It's basically
0:37:36in the cloud backup business for all of its devices minus a rounding error which we call
0:37:41the Mac these days. So I hope Apple does do that because I mean first of all what choice
0:37:45do we have for cloud backups on the phone? It's not like we can use Backblazer Crashplant
0:37:48on our phone. We all do iCloud backups even if we also do iTunes backups and for the most
0:37:54part it seems to sort of work and it's certainly better than nothing. So Apple should do that
0:37:58eventually.
0:37:59And also just like, you know, you can make jokes about like how bad Apple services have
0:38:04been so far in the past and everything like that, but I think iCloud backup is pretty
0:38:08solid. Like, and most of their recent services are pretty solid. You know, some of their
0:38:13intelligence based things like Siri and things like that could use some work, but like the
0:38:19stuff that's about just like storing your data responsibly and syncing it and everything,
0:38:23stuff has been pretty solid for a while now. So I am totally fine with the idea of Apple
0:38:30offering this. And it's one of those things, it's similar to, like when they launched Time
0:38:34Machine, there was a lot of criticism about various limitations or requirements Time Machine
0:38:41had, but like the one thing you can always say in defense of moves like this is, "Well,
0:38:45it's better than people who use nothing at all." Like it's better than nothing, right?
0:38:50And so with iOS devices backing up to iCloud,
0:38:53like, you know, that's another situation where like,
0:38:56it's better than not having,
0:38:57even the five gigs they give you is better than nothing.
0:39:00It'd be nice to have more by default
0:39:02because it would be nice to have a reasonable amount
0:39:05for all iPhones sold that just came
0:39:07with the price of the iPhone.
0:39:09I think that would be a wonderful thing for Apple to do.
0:39:11I'm not holding my breath on that,
0:39:13but I wish they would do things like that.
0:39:15But, 'cause you know, having any backup
0:39:17is better than having no backup.
0:39:19And this would be the kind of thing where like,
0:39:21yeah, not every Mac owner would or should
0:39:24use an iCloud backup service if it were offered on the Mac,
0:39:27but it would be a really easy, fast way
0:39:30to get lots of Mac users to have a backup
0:39:33who otherwise would have had nothing at all.
0:39:35And that's good that you want that.
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0:41:09(upbeat music)
0:41:12- All right, so that's the end of the follow up
0:41:14and we should move on to Ask ATP.
0:41:17- I don't know, no.
0:41:18- What do you mean no?
0:41:19- One more item, quickie for you.
0:41:21- Oh no, there's nothing else.
0:41:23- I believe there is.
0:41:24- So Casey, I heard that you might've had a keyboard flaw
0:41:29on your new MacBook Adorable that has this wonderful keyboard
0:41:34that everyone loves so much that definitely
0:41:36doesn't have constant flaws for almost everybody.
0:41:38No, no, no, that's fake news.
0:41:39Oh, oh, okay.
0:41:40Just wanted to make sure.
0:41:42Yeah, so my beloved MacBook Adorable apparently got an infinitesimally small piece of dust
0:41:48under the numeral four key.
0:41:51And because of that, it was mushy for days until I finally had the time to go to Target
0:41:59and buy myself compressed air, which is something I haven't bought in probably five, maybe ten
0:42:04years.
0:42:05And then take the compressed air to my MacBook and blow out the infinitesimally small piece
0:42:11of dust.
0:42:12And then subsequent to that, it took me a few hours to realize I had not really removed
0:42:17the dust but simply relocated it to under the caps lock key, which I don't generally
0:42:23use, but I happened to use a few hours later and was like, "Oh, well that's mushy and
0:42:27gross.
0:42:28I guess I know where that dust went."
0:42:30And then I had to take the compressed air again to the caps lock key in order to blow
0:42:34it out again.
0:42:35And now I think my keyboard is fully functioning once more.
0:42:38But yeah, very frustrating, because the difference between the regularly functioning keys and
0:42:45a key that has just an iota of dust under it is night and day.
0:42:52It is disgusting to use a key that has dust under it because it feels mushy and gross
0:42:56and terrible.
0:42:57So I still love my MacBook Adorable.
0:43:00I still do recommend it, especially as like an accessory Mac.
0:43:03But the tolerance for dust and debris on this thing is approaching zero, which is really
0:43:11unfortunate.
0:43:12It's like the opposite of that Panasonic Toughbook.
0:43:14Remember that?
0:43:15Oh, yeah, I do.
0:43:16Oh, yeah, I do.
0:43:17The yellow laptop.
0:43:18Yeah, the laptop meant to work in all sorts of environments.
0:43:21Maybe you should get one of those glass boxes with the little holes with the gloves in them
0:43:24that the scientists use when they're working with hazardous materials.
0:43:27Just put the MacBook Adorable inside the box, and when you want to use it, just put your
0:43:30hands into those gloves.
0:43:32I hear you.
0:43:33- Oh yeah, so that was sad times.
0:43:34- I'm about to get one of these at work, by the way.
0:43:36I'm about to get a 2017 MacBook Pro at work.
0:43:40I'll let you know if and when my key,
0:43:41I think my keyboard will be fine
0:43:42because I plan to never touch it.
0:43:44I plan to keep the thing closed
0:43:45and use it hooked up to a monitor
0:43:46and just use it as like a three times more powerful version
0:43:50of my Mac Pro that I have at work now.
0:43:52Hooked up to the very same monitor, mouse and keyboard.
0:43:54But we'll see.
0:43:56- You say that, but as Marco and I were just recounting
0:43:58an episode or two ago, clamshell mode is the worst.
0:44:02I'll leave it cracked, but the point is,
0:44:04I'm gonna not use that keyboard if I can help it.
0:44:07- Yeah, I mean, it's-- - I mean, the thing is,
0:44:09like, and I, I'm obviously always tempted
0:44:12to launch another rant about how this keyboard is awful
0:44:15to be on all the computers, but it makes some sense
0:44:19for this awful keyboard to be on that computer.
0:44:22The one you have, Casey, not the one John's getting
0:44:24and the one that I have, but it makes sense.
0:44:27The MacBook Adorable One 12 inch, whatever we're calling it,
0:44:30is super, super small and thin at all other costs.
0:44:34That is what that computer is for.
0:44:36So I honestly can't complain that much
0:44:39that they put this incredibly controversial,
0:44:43unreliable keyboard in that model.
0:44:45- Well, you can complain about the reliability.
0:44:47Like, it's fine to make it super slim
0:44:49and compromise and everything,
0:44:50but reliability, no matter what you do,
0:44:52that should be the one thing,
0:44:53like, the job of the keyboard is when you press the key,
0:44:55it makes a letter on your screen, right?
0:44:56So it can't, we shouldn't be accepting
0:45:00this big of a downgrade in expected reliability.
0:45:02'Cause every keyboard goes bad eventually.
0:45:04I've broken a bunch of the flat aluminum ones,
0:45:06but they last for years before something goes wrong.
0:45:09And I mean, it could be whatever the thing is,
0:45:12not confirmation bias, but where you're hyper aware
0:45:16of people telling you tales of woe about their keyboards.
0:45:18But boy, we've heard a lot of them
0:45:19from people who have this keyboard.
0:45:21And it just seems like a big change in reliability,
0:45:25in keyboard reliability.
0:45:28All laptop keyboards are gonna go crappy eventually,
0:45:31probably, but within the first several months
0:45:34to have a key stop working to the point where it affects,
0:45:36it's not like, oh, it feels weird when I type,
0:45:38like to the point where it doesn't make the letter
0:45:40on the screen, that's just not acceptable,
0:45:42even for the slim one.
0:45:44- That's true, yeah.
0:45:45Because it's like, again, it's like,
0:45:46this is a problem that we didn't used to have.
0:45:49And, or like, you know, if you had a laptop
0:45:52that had a key break or die on it,
0:45:54it was maybe after like five years,
0:45:56or after you had abused it or dropped a whole bunch
0:45:58of crap in it.
0:45:59And so that's one thing, that's probably unavoidable.
0:46:03But to have laptops where now this keyboard
0:46:06is on the entire line of laptops,
0:46:08and that entire line of laptops has significant
0:46:12reliability problems with the primary interface method,
0:46:16that is a big problem.
0:46:18That is a massive design flaw that shouldn't have shipped
0:46:20the first time, let alone the second and,
0:46:23in the case of the 12 inch, third times.
0:46:25So, I really, you know, there was,
0:46:28remember that Reddit thread that was a couple months ago
0:46:30that was allegedly from some manufacturing insider
0:46:33that was spilling details about who knows what about Apple?
0:46:35One of the things that said in there was that
0:46:38there's gonna be a new key switch mechanism
0:46:39for the 2018 MacBook Pro revision
0:46:42that allegedly it's going to be similar
0:46:44in thickness and travel,
0:46:46but it's gonna be magnetic or something.
0:46:48There's gonna be some kind of significant key switch change.
0:46:51I hope that is, you know,
0:46:54I hope something like that is going to happen.
0:46:56I hope Apple sees the way we do that, you know,
0:46:59we can't convince them to make this keyboard thicker
0:47:01to make it feel better.
0:47:02That's never gonna happen.
0:47:03So I'll take what we can get.
0:47:04Let's just make this, if we're gonna have this super thin
0:47:07keyboard that sacrifices the key travel
0:47:10for Johnny Ive's ThinWorld, at least make it work reliably.
0:47:14Like there is no way in 2017 and 2018
0:47:19we should not have unreliable laptop keyboards
0:47:22on brand new $2,000 and up laptops.
0:47:24That is completely unacceptable and ridiculous
0:47:28in this day and age.
0:47:30- How to clean the keyboard of your MacBook or MacBook Pro.
0:47:33If your MacBook 2015 and later,
0:47:34or MacBook Pro 2016 and later has an unresponsive key
0:47:37or a key that feels different than the other keys
0:47:39when you press it, follow these steps
0:47:41to clean the keyboard with compressed air.
0:47:43Number one, hold your Mac notebook at a 75 degree angle
0:47:47so it's not quite vertical.
0:47:48That's 75 kids, not 80, not 70.
0:47:50We covered this exact article on this show.
0:47:53You were there.
0:47:54It's so preposterous.
0:47:55I cannot believe that this is a thing.
0:47:56Number two, use compressed air to spray the keyboard or just the affected keys in a left-to-right
0:48:01motion.
0:48:02Number three, rotate your Mac notebook so it's right side and so it's right side.
0:48:08That's not even a full sentence.
0:48:10Rotate your Mac keyboard so it's right.
0:48:11Oh, to its right side.
0:48:12I can't read.
0:48:13My apologies.
0:48:14To its right side and spray the keyboard again.
0:48:15Apple can't make keyboards.
0:48:16It's fine.
0:48:17And spray the keyboard again from left to right.
0:48:19Number four, repeat the action this time with your Mac notebook rotated to its left side.
0:48:23This is asinine that this is a thing.
0:48:25Now to be fair, my keyboard still worked, it just felt like garbage.
0:48:30But - or one key felt like garbage.
0:48:32And by and large, I actually do still very much like this keyboard.
0:48:35I know Marco you don't, and that's fine, but in general, when it's working, I really like
0:48:40this keyboard.
0:48:41Similarly, when my car's valvetrain hasn't exploded, it's a very nice car.
0:48:45But yeah, it's just frustrating.
0:48:47It's very frustrating that I've had this computer for two and change months and I'm already
0:48:53having to take restorative action to get the keyboard to work again.
0:48:58- Right, and again, I've resigned myself to this new thin key switch thing that feels
0:49:04to me crappy, but I've resigned myself to that.
0:49:09I've been constantly reducing my expectations.
0:49:11Fine, I'll carry a dongle bag.
0:49:14Fine, I'll pay a little bit more.
0:49:16"Fine, I'll have this touch bar on the big ones
0:49:18"that I really don't like."
0:49:20At least make it reliable.
0:49:22Like, just make it work reliably.
0:49:24If you're gonna make me swallow
0:49:26all of these other jagged, bitter pills,
0:49:28at least make the thing reliable.
0:49:30That's all, like, I'm not asking for much here.
0:49:33I've reduced my expectations and given up
0:49:35on every other battle on these laptops.
0:49:37Just give me that. (laughs)
0:49:39- Lana Smore said.
0:49:41- Yeah, jagged little pill, though, thank you very much.
0:49:43- I know, I'm just saying, like,
0:49:44I think that's Marco's brain farting out some references without his knowledge.
0:49:49I know. No, honestly, not only is that a great album, but I was arguing with Tiff about this
0:49:54a few days ago. I would say that is possibly one of the most influential albums of the
0:50:0090s.
0:50:01You 90s kids. Who cares?
0:50:03Oh, wow.
0:50:04Oh, wow.
0:50:05You've got to wait 20 years before you can be nostalgic like we are about the 80s.
0:50:10You know, there are times, Jon-
0:50:11That's right, not 10 more years, but actually 20. It's not a linear scale.
0:50:15So you are, what are you, like six or seven years older than we are? And usually that
0:50:21feels like six or seven minutes, but then there are times that it feels like six or
0:50:25seven decades, and this is one of those times.
0:50:28It's when you listen to Margo and Tiff talk about it, and you for that matter talk with
0:50:32nostalgia about 90s music and just it's just like, "What?"
0:50:37It was more than 20 years ago for most of it.
0:50:38I know, I know, it just seems weird.
0:50:41Did it all come out in like '95, '96, something like that?
0:50:44I mean, maybe, I'm assuming people from the '70s feel the same way with people in this
0:50:47algebra '80s music, because, you know, it's all the '70s was good music and '80s was all
0:50:50this crap, but you know, whatever, it's what age you are, I understand how it works.
0:50:54Just Alanis Morissette, influential album.
0:50:57'95, alright.
0:50:58Geez, alright.
0:50:59That should be a top four, top four albums in the '90s.
0:51:03I knew her when she was on, you can't do that on television, you didn't know her then.
0:51:07I sure did. I loved that show.
0:51:09That was a great show. Don't even start with me.
0:51:11Were you watching reruns?
0:51:13Oh, you are such a turd.
0:51:15Alright, let's just move on.
0:51:17Let's just move on. Alright, Ask ATP. Can we slime John somehow?
0:51:21Oh, I would love to. Oh my god, we should kickstart sliming John and give the money
0:51:25to Houston or something like that.
0:51:28Oh, my word. Somebody get on that. Anyway, Joe Lyon writes in to Ask ATP.
0:51:32This is a little bit long, so I remember seeing this, but it must have been an email or something.
0:51:36What is the long game in photo storage?
0:51:40Not just which cloud service do I use for the next five years, but how will photos be
0:51:44managed, stored, and handed down between generations?
0:51:46We take more pictures than ever, but then we lock them all into personal devices and
0:51:49accounts and print very few of them.
0:51:52I think our family histories are actually at more danger than previously, ironically.
0:51:56Hundreds of thousands of pictures from a family can be lost when someone dies and doesn't
0:51:59leave behind a password, or a cloud service goes belly up and local backups weren't made,
0:52:04photos or hard disks crash or data isn't carried to new devices.
0:52:08Coincidentally, I was thinking about this recently because I have really been wondering
0:52:16like if I were to suddenly pass away, what would happen to the things that I care about,
0:52:22like our pictures?
0:52:23And because of that, that's yet another reason why I recommend the 1Password family plan because
0:52:29you know, Erin has my password via 1Password. She has my password for like Google Photos, for example.
0:52:36But, you know, Joe Lyon's point is exactly right. Like, it used to be that you would print all these
0:52:41pictures and create albums, and granted there would be far fewer pictures than you would have
0:52:45in this digital age, but at least there was something you can physically give to somebody else.
0:52:50What does the future bring? And I'll start with the semi-pro photographer. Marco, what do you think
0:52:55think about this?
0:52:56- I'm barely even mad anymore, but it's a bigger question of lots of things regarding
0:53:04your data integrity and everything else.
0:53:07It goes way beyond just photos, but lots of your other data as well.
0:53:11But I mean, largely, once I'm gone, I won't care.
0:53:16I won't be able to care.
0:53:17So it's largely not my problem with my particular stuff, but I think it relies--
0:53:22- There's the Nihilus Guide to Photo Backup by Mark De Laarman.
0:53:25(laughing)
0:53:26- But like, you know, I think it relies on your family
0:53:31and people who come after you.
0:53:33It relies on them caring.
0:53:35Just like preservation of anything
0:53:36from previous generations.
0:53:37Like, if they care, you know, it basically, you know,
0:53:41we as the people who have this data now,
0:53:44I think we do have some responsibility
0:53:46to have some kind of recovery, you know,
0:53:49that our heirs will have access to after we're gone.
0:53:52So you know, things like making sure that our family has access to passwords and data
0:53:55and stuff like that.
0:53:57But beyond that, like, it's up to the next generations to care.
0:54:01And it always has been.
0:54:02Like every family, you know, like, you know, you only know what your relatives have been
0:54:08able to pass on to you.
0:54:09You only have what they've carried with them and what they still have in their possessions
0:54:13from previous generations.
0:54:16And the same thing is going to apply to this.
0:54:19Like in some ways it is easier than ever to keep this stuff.
0:54:23And especially as time goes on, like my entire photo collection from the first year I was
0:54:29taking photos with the digital camera, which was like 2004, I think, or no 2000 really.
0:54:35But my entire photo collection from that year is like a few hundred megs.
0:54:40Like it's at most like it's nothing compared to like, and as time goes on, every year that
0:54:45goes by, hard drives get bigger, and cameras get better, and photos get bigger, and so
0:54:50it seems like everything's always really big, but like, what was taken in the past, with
0:54:54low resolution cameras, lower resolution sensors, like less data being captured, less video,
0:55:00more stills, like, I don't know, I feel like it's not that hard if you care, and if your
0:55:05heirs and relatives care, it isn't that hard to keep stuff, and to pass it down, it's just
0:55:11an issue of will the people who inherit your things actually care to keep them? And that's
0:55:18always been a problem.
0:55:19- And photos don't get bigger all the time. Like you said, photos get bigger every year
0:55:23and cameras get better. But we are probably already very close to limits of human visual
0:55:29acuity on the highest end cameras and we're just waiting for that to trickle down. Once
0:55:32your phone is taking 42 megapixel images, do you think in 10 years they're gonna be
0:55:38taking 84 megapixel images they will not like there what are we gonna do blow it
0:55:42up to a poster the size of a football stadium like there we are close to the
0:55:46limits and if storage continues to increase at any rate while the size of
0:55:52photos stays more or less the same maybe even get smaller if we have better
0:55:54compression tech this is the storage of photos is a problem that will solve
0:56:00itself essentially as storage size increases so just in the same way it's
0:56:05easy for Marco to take his 100 megs of photos from 2000, in 50 years, it will be much easier
0:56:11to take our "massive" photo libraries and put them in the storage of the day. And 50
0:56:18years, they will not be taking 10,000 megapixel photos. They'll probably be like 50 to 100
0:56:24megapixel photos, if even that, probably not even that. It's going to stop because there's
0:56:29no point in more pixels. Like again, you're not blowing it up to a poster that covers
0:56:33your entire house. So that little, that part of the problem will take care of itself. I
0:56:38have some faith in that. Kind of like music did. Like music files, like, you know, even
0:56:43if they go to flack, that's it. Like limits of human acuity, bit depth, bit rate, all
0:56:48things we talk about. Take the biggest audio file you could have. Is there a benefit to
0:56:52making something a hundred times bigger? No, there isn't. Because we can't hear anything
0:56:56better than that. That's it. The audio will never get bigger than that, you know, and
0:57:01multi-channel and so on and so forth.
0:57:02So I'm optimistic about that.
0:57:05And it's a thing to remember about trends like this,
0:57:07where it's like, oh, we're just, it's never, you know,
0:57:09it's just gonna continue on and on.
0:57:10Some of the lines in the graph level off,
0:57:12and that is a saving grace.
0:57:14- Yeah.
0:57:15- And the thing I would add though,
0:57:16this is just a backup problem like anything else.
0:57:18Aside from the social things of like, oh, passing it on
0:57:20and having, you know, sharing your passwords,
0:57:22that you should definitely do that.
0:57:23But like any other backup problem,
0:57:25it's all about diversity, right?
0:57:26So print some pictures, first of all,
0:57:28because that is a diversified backup strategy.
0:57:31Physical things versus digital things.
0:57:34The physical things are worse,
0:57:34they deteriorate, that you can lose them,
0:57:37they take up space, so on and so forth.
0:57:39But it's an important diversification to reach out.
0:57:41You print some books from Apple's Photos app,
0:57:43go to Shutterfly or whatever,
0:57:45print some pictures from one of our sponsors
0:57:48of this episode, right?
0:57:49That is a diversification.
0:57:51That's also, as Marco will surely say in the ad read,
0:57:53not just diversification of backup,
0:57:56but it lets you look at your pictures.
0:57:58Like, you know, we all have so many pictures,
0:58:00but if they're in a digital thing,
0:58:01like how often do you even look at them?
0:58:03I think I spent more time looking at the pictures
0:58:05on my phone in the new Uncharted game
0:58:07than I do looking at the pictures on my actual phone.
0:58:09So printing them and hanging them on your wall
0:58:11lets you enjoy them for the time you're alive
0:58:12before you don't care like Margo when he's dead.
0:58:15(laughing)
0:58:17And diversification of backup means also,
0:58:19perhaps winnowing your collection down
0:58:22to some really good pictures
0:58:23and sharing them with your relative.
0:58:24This is a case where you're not doing it for a backup,
0:58:26but you just want to give other people your photos.
0:58:28And I think we're in a much better situation
0:58:30than we were in the past because it's harder,
0:58:32I think, for the shoe box full of photos or photo albums
0:58:35to transfer from the elderly relative who's died
0:58:38to the rest of the family because people don't want,
0:58:39here's like 50 pounds of photo albums,
0:58:42or even just a shoe box.
0:58:43Like people don't want that junk,
0:58:44like especially when you're trying to clear out
0:58:45all the belongings and everything like that,
0:58:47and you're trying to save the few precious things
0:58:49like one or two wedding photos.
0:58:51Them being digital and us having a fighting chance,
0:58:54least, of losslessly carrying them across generations is merely a matter of making
0:58:59that process easy enough to do.
0:59:00And I think as we all die and the people who grew up in the sort of the cusp of the
0:59:06digital age die off, the process of figuring out how to get our crap to continue on
0:59:10will be worked out in a generation or two.
0:59:13And so I have a lot of confidence that a sort of permanent growing archive of things
0:59:18associated with the family will be passed on from generation to generation again,
0:59:22because storage sizes will keep going up, not forever,
0:59:24but they'll keep going up long after the size
0:59:27of the things we're doing go up.
0:59:28And by the way, I also think there's a limit
0:59:29on number of photos we'll take too,
0:59:31because I mean, I guess you could just switch
0:59:33to constantly recorded video,
0:59:34but there's some social parts that I think
0:59:36won't make it happen.
0:59:37But we take so many more pictures now than we used to,
0:59:39especially that we have kids, but in 300 years,
0:59:43we're not gonna be taking a thousand times more photos.
0:59:45Like you just can't do that.
0:59:46We'll be taking a photo every half a second
0:59:47for our entire lives, 24 hours a day.
0:59:49That's just video.
0:59:50and I don't think we were gonna record
0:59:51every second of our lives.
0:59:52So I am much more optimistic than Joe Lyon about this,
0:59:55but I would recommend people think about the password
0:59:57sharing thing like Casey said,
0:59:59diversify your photo backups,
1:00:01and maybe get a couple of them and print them
1:00:03and hang them on your wall
1:00:04so you can look at them while you're still alive.
1:00:06- Brad Ringel asks, it's been discussed a bit,
1:00:09but can you give a brief rundown of how you decided
1:00:12on a camera to buy and suggestions for a beginner?
1:00:14I will start and say that what I had done
1:00:19was look around at my friends and try to figure out
1:00:22what was something that felt kind of entry level
1:00:26and approachable with,
1:00:28and also was reasonably easy to carry physically
1:00:32because it wasn't the size of a DSLR.
1:00:33And so I have an Olympus OM-D E-M10.
1:00:37I'll put a link in the show notes to a couple of,
1:00:39actually two or three year old review now of that camera.
1:00:42It's the one I still use.
1:00:43This is a Micro Four Thirds camera
1:00:47and it has interchangeable lenses.
1:00:49And so I spent a fair bit of money on,
1:00:52well, what I thought was a fair bit of money
1:00:53on both the body and one really nice prime lens.
1:00:56That prime lens lasted me for the first couple of years
1:00:59I had the camera.
1:01:00And then about a year ago, I added a zoom lens.
1:01:03I chose this because Sean Blanc,
1:01:06Blanc, Blanc, I forget how you pronounce her name.
1:01:08Thank you.
1:01:10Sean Blanc had recommended it very, very strongly.
1:01:13And I love this camera.
1:01:15By no means is it the best camera in the entire world, but I love it and it is done right
1:01:21by me and helped me get better as a photographer because it allows, and not to say it's unique
1:01:27to this camera by any stretch, but this one is very good because it allows interchangeable
1:01:31lenses and it allows me to do things like shoot an aperture priority, which is to say
1:01:36I can concentrate on getting one thing right and the rest of it will just automatically
1:01:39happen.
1:01:40Again, I'm not saying that's unique to this camera, but that's kind of how I got started,
1:01:44that's generally speaking how I still shoot today. And suggestions for a beginner, you
1:01:49know, everyone says this, and I remember Marco, you and you and me and Aaron and Tif were
1:01:53sitting in some restaurant in New York forever ago, and we were talking about cameras. And
1:01:58I remember you and Tif saying to me, there are two rules to being a good photographer.
1:02:03Number one, never use the flash. And number two, take a bazillion pictures, because if
1:02:08If you take a bazillion pictures, at least one of them will be okay.
1:02:12And I really think, as cliche and as silly and as frustrating as that may sound to a
1:02:18beginner, that really, really is the case.
1:02:21I would recommend getting enough of a camera that you feel like you've got something interesting
1:02:27and special.
1:02:28And that doesn't have to be very expensive by any means, but enough that maybe you can
1:02:31get a little Boca Boca, however you pronounce it.
1:02:35But other than that, just try to avoid the flash and take a lot of pictures.
1:02:40And I think that's sufficient.
1:02:41So Jon, let's go to you next.
1:02:43What do you recommend?
1:02:44I basically bought the camera Marko told me to.
1:02:46It's a good strategy for many things in life.
1:02:50But the caveat though, I did, he also told me about lens rentals.
1:02:54And so before I bought it, I'm pretty sure you guys may remember that.
1:02:58Didn't I rent that camera first before I decided to plunk down the money for it?
1:03:01I believe you did.
1:03:02It was either that one or its predecessor.
1:03:04And I did the same, by the way.
1:03:05Yeah, no, it was a 63. And I remember when Marco recommended it, I wasn't that keen on it,
1:03:10because I wanted, like, I basically wanted a fancier camera, but then I used Marco's
1:03:14A7R II or whatever it used to have, and it just seemed too big. And so then I'm like,
1:03:18"Ah, maybe he was right, the small one." So I rented it and liked it and bought it. And I
1:03:22didn't, honestly, I didn't shop around that too much, because that's a service both Wirecutter
1:03:25and Marco provide. If you don't want to spend a year researching stuff, I did actually spend a
1:03:30very long time researching Super Zooms, because I had experience with a couple of them, and I'm
1:03:33I'm like, let me just find the successor to my family camera and I get my super zoom and I could never find one that
1:03:38Seemed like it was a win over what I was doing. So yeah, so ask friends who know stuff about cameras and
1:03:44Before you plunk down a large amount of money. It seems large as someone who doesn't buy fancy cameras
1:03:51Consider something like lens rentals where it seems like oh my god
1:03:54How much am I paying to rent this but it's cheaper than buying the camera and realizing you don't want it and having to you
1:03:59Know find a way to sell it at a loss and everything. So
1:04:03That that that I think that works man. And yeah, honestly the agent internet, you know, if you don't know Marco personally
1:04:09There is the the wire cutter. There is DP review
1:04:12You can find the information out there and then just come up with a couple candidates
1:04:16Borrow or rent them to see which one you like and and then go for it. I agree with Casey
1:04:22Go like kind of like a Mac storage go a little bit more than you think like save money for an extra six months if you
1:04:29have to because you will never regret getting a slightly nicer camera. You may regret getting
1:04:33a slightly bigger camera, so that's why I say use it and see if you feel like, "Does
1:04:37this camera fit into my life?" But make it something special, especially in the age of
1:04:42our phone cameras are also good. If you're going to buy a camera camera that all does
1:04:46is camera stuff, make it better enough than your phone camera that it's not close. And
1:04:52that will make you excited to use your "good camera." Like, I do take a lot of pictures
1:04:57with my phone, I take video with my phone.
1:04:59But I really like my fancy, and not that fancy,
1:05:02but my quote unquote real camera.
1:05:04I really like that I use it a lot.
1:05:07Not all the time, not every day,
1:05:08but I like knowing that it's there.
1:05:10And when I do use it, like I said,
1:05:112,000 pictures coming home from the ocean from one day,
1:05:14that's a good time for me.
1:05:16- Yeah, and I would just like to quickly double down
1:05:19on what you said about lens rentals.
1:05:21I've used lensrentals.com, they've never sponsored.
1:05:23I rented the camera that I now have before we bought one and got a chance to play with
1:05:29it for a few days.
1:05:30And in fact, I rented it to take, well, I had my dad do it, but to take maternity shots
1:05:35for Aaron before Declan was born.
1:05:39And I got to spend some time with it.
1:05:41Dad took these really beautiful pictures with it and he's not a photographer.
1:05:45He just was able to take really good shots with a combination of this body and this lens.
1:05:49And so I completely agree with Jon, and I think Marco was the one who originally recommended
1:05:54it to me as well.
1:05:55You know, take a spin with whatever camera you're looking at, and it cost me like 150
1:06:00bucks or something like that to get the camera for a few days and the lens I wanted for a
1:06:03few days, but it was worth its price in gold because it made me know that this like $1500
1:06:08or $2000 expenditure I ended up spending was worth it.
1:06:12So Marco, what would you say about this?
1:06:15You know, what's a good set of tips for a beginner?
1:06:19- You guys have actually covered it really well.
1:06:21I don't have that much more to add.
1:06:23You can be talking for 20 minutes now.
1:06:24(laughing)
1:06:26I mean, I know myself pretty well.
1:06:28So, yeah, I mean, definitely renting before you buy
1:06:33is very valuable, 'cause you spent the 150 bucks,
1:06:36and go to lensrentals.com.
1:06:39I think there are other sites,
1:06:40but I've always used Lensrentals,
1:06:41and I've had excellent experiences with them over the years
1:06:44over a pretty long time, over lots of different rentals,
1:06:47of lots of different things.
1:06:49A few times I needed the customer service,
1:06:50it was excellent every time,
1:06:53and they're a pretty big operation and pretty reputable.
1:06:55So highly recommend LensRentals.
1:06:56You're right, they have never sponsored us.
1:06:58I don't think they ever would sponsor us,
1:06:59but now they don't need to
1:07:01'cause we're giving this away for free.
1:07:02(laughing)
1:07:04So, 'cause not only did you learn what,
1:07:09you basically got confirmation that what you wanted to buy
1:07:12was probably a good idea,
1:07:14but in some cases it can teach you
1:07:16that you don't want to buy something.
1:07:18Like if you rent it and you learn,
1:07:20you know, actually this is too big,
1:07:21or the handling doesn't work out for me, or whatever.
1:07:23Like it's useful for that.
1:07:24It's also useful for like,
1:07:26if there's some really expensive piece of gear,
1:07:29whether it's a camera or a lens,
1:07:30usually more often, hence the name.
1:07:32Something that you don't need very often.
1:07:35Like there was a, like I was shooting the talk show live
1:07:39at WBC two years ago,
1:07:41and I shot it with a rented lens,
1:07:43because I knew I would need a certain type of zoom lens
1:07:47to do a really good job with it.
1:07:49But it's a lens that I hardly ever need in my daily life
1:07:51and it was very expensive to buy.
1:07:53So I just rented it for the week
1:07:54and it was way less money.
1:07:56And I learned as I was renting it,
1:07:58like wow, I'm so glad I don't own this lens
1:07:59because it's giant and heavy
1:08:01and I really don't want to have this most of the time.
1:08:04I only very rarely need it.
1:08:06So it's nice to actually consider the possibility
1:08:09of renting things just as part of the way you operate
1:08:13in the camera world because there is so much
1:08:16incredibly specialized gear that you might need
1:08:20twice or once and it's probably not worth buying it for that
1:08:24but for those one or two times, it's really, really nice.
1:08:28- Yeah, and that actually is a really great point as well
1:08:32because after I'd had my camera for a couple of years,
1:08:35I had my eye on a zoom lens and I forget the specifics
1:08:39but I wanna say it was like a 100 to 300 millimeter zoom
1:08:41which is something like double that in a DSLR, or maybe half that.
1:08:45I forget how it all works out.
1:08:46But it ended up that it was like a really, really, really strong zoom.
1:08:52And so you had to be like, you know, 20, 30, 40 feet away from your subject before it was
1:08:58even useful.
1:08:59And then that's when it started to be useful.
1:09:01And again, I'm making up the details here, but it was something along those lines.
1:09:04And so I rented it for a week.
1:09:06And actually, strictly speaking, Erin rented it for me for like a birthday present or something,
1:09:09because she knew I was looking at it.
1:09:11And it turns out it was a terrible lens.
1:09:14And I was so thankful that Aaron had spent the money to rent it for me because I then
1:09:17knew that it wasn't worth like $800 or whatever it cost to get that lens.
1:09:21And the zoom lens I ended up with was quite a bit different.
1:09:25And I knew that because I then rented that lens and spent some time with it and knew
1:09:29that it was worth the money.
1:09:31So yeah, I completely, completely doubled down, tripled down even on the lens rentals
1:09:35idea.
1:09:36I couldn't recommend it enough.
1:09:38- Yeah, and to expand a little bit on what John said
1:09:41about renting it or getting a handle on how it feels
1:09:46and possibly regretting things like size and weight
1:09:51down the road.
1:09:53- Or battery life.
1:09:54- Yes, or battery life.
1:09:57I would say one of the best things you can do
1:09:59if you're in the market for a camera
1:10:00is to go to a store that has them in person
1:10:03and to actually be able to look at them in person,
1:10:06next to each other, do some basic research
1:10:09before you get to the store, just so you know
1:10:11roughly what models offer the kinds of things
1:10:13that you're looking for, but actually pick them up
1:10:15and see them in person, see them next to each other,
1:10:17try to handle them, see certain ones.
1:10:20Cameras these days have so many capabilities,
1:10:22but they're also oftentimes very small.
1:10:25And so ergonomics become a pretty big challenge
1:10:28in a lot of them.
1:10:29Usability of the various menus and controls
1:10:32and dials and everything, these are all
1:10:34pretty major factors that differ significantly
1:10:37between different models.
1:10:38And so anything you can do to get your hands on,
1:10:42you know, it's the precursor to renting, basically.
1:10:44Anything you can do to get your hands on them
1:10:46and see them in person before you decide.
1:10:50Because you can read a review,
1:10:53or you can hear me say something about a certain model,
1:10:55or you can go to the wire cutter,
1:10:57and you can go to DP Review,
1:10:58and you can spend hours and hours and hours,
1:10:59I have, on these sites,
1:11:01like when you're trying to make a decision
1:11:03on what camera to buy for you or what's right for you.
1:11:06That's good, you should do some of that,
1:11:11but the model of trying to figure out
1:11:15what is the one camera you should buy in this price range,
1:11:19that really is not a great model for this
1:11:22because different cameras will work for different people
1:11:25and there really isn't one great model
1:11:29that everyone should buy in each price range
1:11:31or in each size category.
1:11:32I was able to give John a decent recommendation for him
1:11:36because I had more information about what he wanted
1:11:39and he had used my medium-sized one.
1:11:42And so there was more to go on.
1:11:45But if you just go to some site that tries to pick like,
1:11:47here's the one camera you should get in this category,
1:11:50that might not be right for you.
1:11:51So anything you can do to see them in person to use them,
1:11:54whether it's going to a store or renting one
1:11:57that you think you might wanna buy or both,
1:11:59ideally you kinda narrow down as you go,
1:12:02it's invaluable because really the cameras
1:12:05that are out there, they are so different
1:12:07in how they handle.
1:12:09And a lot of times a camera that might not have
1:12:12the best sensor or the best technical specs
1:12:15in certain areas, a lot of times if it just handles better,
1:12:19you will end up using it more or you will enjoy
1:12:21using it more because of the physical differences
1:12:26or the other differences that aren't just
1:12:28the sensor quality.
1:12:30And this is a lesson I've often not learned fully
1:12:32when I've made certain decisions,
1:12:33but I try to recover from that,
1:12:36try to get better over time,
1:12:38because it matters so, so much,
1:12:42just how it handles, how it behaves,
1:12:44how it performs in your hand,
1:12:46in the mechanics of using it.
1:12:48One of the ones that I have heard great things about,
1:12:52and I have very little experience with them,
1:12:55is the Fuji X line.
1:12:57People love these things.
1:12:58There was the X-T1, the X-T2, the X-100.
1:13:02I haven't followed them too closely,
1:13:05but these are cameras that,
1:13:07they often don't perform top notch
1:13:09in certain spec comparisons,
1:13:11but people just love them because of their ergonomics
1:13:14and their mechanics and things like that.
1:13:16That's the kind of thing you want to look for.
1:13:18Similarly, it's hard to understand the appeal
1:13:21of Leica cameras, because Leicas are very, very expensive.
1:13:24Like, eye-wateringly expensive.
1:13:27and you think why would anybody buy that
1:13:29when the sensor doesn't perform any better
1:13:31than a Sony sensor or something like that.
1:13:33And a couple of times I've had a chance
1:13:35to actually handle a camera,
1:13:38and there is a certain degree of like,
1:13:41wow, this is just really nicely handling.
1:13:44It's responsive, it feels good, I feel good using it.
1:13:48There is some degree of that.
1:13:49And so there are these other factors
1:13:52when you're looking at the,
1:13:53and by the way, this does not apply just to cameras,
1:13:56But there are these other factors when you look at
1:13:58a buying decision like this where you can do
1:14:01as many spec comparisons as you want on paper
1:14:03and on websites and everything,
1:14:05but it's really hard to do a really,
1:14:07it's really hard to know how much you're gonna actually
1:14:11love using it until you actually get a chance to try it.
1:14:13And that's, again, that's why we say,
1:14:16go see these things in the store.
1:14:17If you can, rent one.
1:14:19Like, those are great options.
1:14:21And for something like this that's so personal
1:14:23and where not everyone has the same requirements.
1:14:27That's pretty good.
1:14:28And then finally to definitely, definitely echo
1:14:30what Jon said, you want a camera that is going to be
1:14:35a lot better than your phone.
1:14:37If it isn't a lot better than your phone,
1:14:40you should not buy it.
1:14:41There is no reason for you to buy a camera
1:14:42that's only a little better than your phone.
1:14:44And phone cameras are really good
1:14:46and they keep getting better at an alarming pace.
1:14:50They keep getting remarkably better.
1:14:52And so I would say, generally speaking,
1:14:56I mean there are exceptions, it's hard to give a firm,
1:14:58like a price floor here that's meaningful.
1:15:01But I would say if you're spending less than probably
1:15:04a thousand dollars, you're probably not getting
1:15:07a quality jump that makes sense
1:15:10in the world of today's smartphones.
1:15:12Especially if you're listening to this show,
1:15:13you're probably an iPhone user,
1:15:15you're probably a user of a fairly recent iPhone,
1:15:17and that's, yeah, that's gonna be hard to beat
1:15:21with anything below $1,000 in a lot of situations.
1:15:24Most of the recommendations that I give
1:15:27are in the one to $3,000 range.
1:15:31And that's a lot of money.
1:15:32And you have to ask yourself, is that really worth it?
1:15:35For a lot of people, it isn't.
1:15:36Or you might go through all this and realize,
1:15:40actually, I still take most of my pictures on my phone
1:15:42because my phone's always with me
1:15:43and the cameras keep getting better
1:15:45and they offer more interesting features in a lot of cases,
1:15:48like live photos and automatic HDR and stuff
1:15:52that other cameras can do sometimes
1:15:55or can do some of these things,
1:15:56but they're clunky or don't work as well
1:15:57or harder to use.
1:15:59So it's like a standalone camera these days
1:16:02has to be way better than your phone
1:16:05to make it worth buying and to make sure
1:16:07you'll actually use it on a regular basis.
1:16:10So if you're not willing or able to spend
1:16:13over $1,000, I would say, easily,
1:16:17on a camera and a couple of lenses for it.
1:16:20I would say it's probably not worth it.
1:16:22You should probably just get the best phone you can
1:16:24and use its camera.
1:16:25- I'd agree with that.
1:16:27Oplez writes, "Have any of you used or played
1:16:31"the notoriety card in your day-to-day life
1:16:33"to get something you wanted?"
1:16:34And I will start with Jon.
1:16:36- I put this question in here because I want to reemphasize
1:16:42people exactly how little notoriety we have. Like maybe it seems like there is no card to play.
1:16:51Even at WWDC where we are, that is the maximum of our fame and notoriety. We're there with
1:16:58the highest percentage chance that people know who we are is like at WWDC. Even there, I have never
1:17:05had a way to parlay my notoriety into pretty much anything except for perhaps giving me the
1:17:15confidence to go up and talk to somebody who I might not otherwise, even though I don't have
1:17:19any expectation they're going to know who I am, I guess that's my answer. I have never played the
1:17:25notoriety card because there's no card to be played, but my impression of my own notoriety
1:17:30in very specific circumstances where a specific kind of nerd gathers for a week, it has given
1:17:36me the confidence to overcome what would normally be my inclination to never talk to another human
1:17:40being, to go talk to somebody and introduce myself. Most people, you know, if you don't have
1:17:45my personality, you don't need that extra boost of confidence. But I really want to emphasize
1:17:49listeners, we have no notoriety. No one knows who we are. No one knows what a podcast is. Well,
1:17:53maybe not with cereal they do. Podcast? What's that? You know, cereal? Oh, I think I heard of
1:17:57Anyway, that's my answer.
1:17:59- Marco?
1:18:00- I don't think I have used it in a useful way
1:18:03because of what John said.
1:18:04It's like, if you actually would take that risk
1:18:09and say, do you know who I am?
1:18:11Like, chances are the answer you're gonna get back is nope.
1:18:14(laughs)
1:18:15And that's not a good risk to take,
1:18:18even if you can get over the fact that,
1:18:20best case scenario, they do know who you are,
1:18:23and you've just been a huge jerk.
1:18:24(laughs)
1:18:25That's not my style, that's not how I interact with the world.
1:18:30Even if I knew I could get away with it, I would still not try to do it because I don't want to do that.
1:18:39But, Jon is correct, in reality there is almost nowhere where we could be,
1:18:44where we could pull a card like that and have it actually work.
1:18:48Like maybe, maybe at our own live show,
1:18:52(laughing)
1:18:54like in the room, seconds after we've walked off stage,
1:18:59maybe then, but anywhere else that would not work at all.
1:19:04And yeah, that's not, we don't have any degree
1:19:07of actual fame in any context where this would even be
1:19:12a possibility, let alone the fact that I think
1:19:15none of the three of us have the personality type
1:19:17to actually try to pull a card like that?
1:19:19- Well, there was that one time where I wished
1:19:21that it worked, where I forgot my wallet
1:19:22and I couldn't pick up my hardware
1:19:23and I had to drive all the way back home.
1:19:25And it's not because I wanted any special treatments,
1:19:26it's because I didn't want to drive all the way back home.
1:19:28'Cause A, I felt dumb for leaving my wallet at home.
1:19:31Like I couldn't pick up my thing at the Apple store.
1:19:32I didn't actually do it.
1:19:34I did jokingly offer,
1:19:36well, just Google my name and my picture will come up.
1:19:39And I was half joking, but I was kinda half serious.
1:19:43Like you need to know who I am, who I am.
1:19:45Type my name into a Google search box,
1:19:47but just I had to drive all the way back home.
1:19:49And that's, again, that's just me trying
1:19:51to save myself commuting time
1:19:53so I don't feel quite as dumb
1:19:54for leaving home without my wallet.
1:19:56But that is the one time.
1:19:57And note that it's like,
1:19:59I didn't say why they should Google my name
1:20:01and why I might come up.
1:20:02Of course I would never do that.
1:20:03And they didn't know who I am and didn't care
1:20:05and I had to get my freaking wallet.
1:20:07- I think it is really, really gross
1:20:11to try to be like, oh, don't you know who I am?
1:20:16So let me tell you about the three times that I did it.
1:20:18The first time was, the first time was,
1:20:22I forget, I guess was, I don't remember what year it was,
1:20:26but maybe it was 2016, I guess,
1:20:28that I tried emailing a few people at Apple
1:20:31and being like, "Hey, I don't have a WWDC ticket.
1:20:34"Maybe I could do something about that?"
1:20:38Didn't work.
1:20:39The second time was when I was trying to get my current job,
1:20:42and I don't know if it's really being like,
1:20:45do you know who I am?" But I definitely mentioned that I had a popular Apple podcast on my resume.
1:20:48And the reason I did that was because I was trying to switch careers from being a Microsoft developer
1:20:53to being an Apple developer, and I was trying to figure out any justifiable reason to hire me at
1:21:01that point and to take a risk on me. The final time is one that you two did not know about,
1:21:07and I wasn't planning on telling you about. And I'm only going to talk about it very lightly,
1:21:13because, I'm trying to think of how to describe this without giving it away.
1:21:18It was offered to me because of the show. So it was not really a "do you know who I am?"
1:21:25But it was offered to me because of the show, and because of a friend that listens to the show.
1:21:32Would you like to get access to a car from the press fleet from a manufacturer that
1:21:43none of us would normally have access to.
1:21:45To which I said, yes, absolutely.
1:21:48That car was supposed to arrive the week after WWDC,
1:21:52and by happenstance, something happened,
1:21:54and it didn't work out.
1:21:56Then that car was supposed to arrive a few weeks later,
1:21:58and when it was traveling from the press pool in DC down to me,
1:22:03it caught a chip in the windshield,
1:22:05and they had to turn around.
1:22:09I haven't heard much since then, and it's been a month or two.
1:22:11So I'm guessing that this didn't work out.
1:22:14In a few months, like by the end of the year,
1:22:16if I haven't had access to this press car,
1:22:18I will concede maybe privately, maybe publicly what it was.
1:22:23But on the slim chance that I actually do get a week
1:22:27with this particular car,
1:22:29which is a car that I would never generally have access to,
1:22:32I don't want to spoil the surprise.
1:22:34But that is somewhat sort of kind of me leveraging my,
1:22:39do you know who I am?
1:22:40Even though it was offered to me,
1:22:41I did not request it.
1:22:42And that is all I'm going to say.
1:22:44- Is it some garbage car that we're gonna laugh at,
1:22:46like the stupid Jeep Cherokee
1:22:48with like a big engine in it or some crap?
1:22:51- First of all, the Cherokee SRT8 is not stupid,
1:22:54you big jerk. - It is stupid and gross.
1:22:55(laughing)
1:22:58- Second of all. - Anyway,
1:22:59is it the type of car, and we know you're excited about it,
1:23:01is it the type of car that we're gonna be excited about it,
1:23:03or is it just the type of car where it's gonna be
1:23:04like a KC car, like a Camaro ZL1?
1:23:07Like, I guess I would kind of be excited about it.
1:23:08I would not be excited about it.
1:23:09- Why are you so mean to me, Jon?
1:23:11I would not be excited about a Veyron.
1:23:12I just want to put that out there,
1:23:13'cause I think the Veyron is also stupid and gross.
1:23:16- So I only have one question about the car,
1:23:18and you know what it is.
1:23:19- It is not a Tesla.
1:23:21- That wasn't the question. - If that's what you're looking.
1:23:23Oh, okay.
1:23:24- What color is it?
1:23:25- I don't know, but I would guess,
1:23:28I would guess that it is red, and that is all I will say.
1:23:31- Interesting.
1:23:33- I'm interested in Ferraris.
1:23:34- It is not a Ferrari.
1:23:35- Unless it's the California.
1:23:36I don't like that one.
1:23:37And then the replacement for the California,
1:23:39The replacement for the California is also gross.
1:23:41What the hell is the California replacement, chat room?
1:23:43- I love that you'd even be picky about like
1:23:45which Ferrari you got to borrow for a week.
1:23:46- Exactly. - It's totally true.
1:23:47Like I've thought about that.
1:23:48Like, but wouldn't you care?
1:23:49Like, wouldn't you be excited by it?
1:23:50And I'd be like, no, not that one.
1:23:52- Sean, you're the worst.
1:23:53- I don't like that one.
1:23:55And the replacement has similarly got,
1:23:58come on chat room.
1:23:59What's the replacement for the California?
1:24:01Portofino, there we go, thank you.
1:24:03- You're the worst, Sean. - Portofino is a better name
1:24:06and it does look nicer than the California,
1:24:07but it's still, it's like the Ferrari that I don't want.
1:24:11I'd rather have the weird four-wheel drive FF thing
1:24:14and well, the replacement, you just said it,
1:24:16the GT4 or Lusso and the pre-pre show that won't be there.
1:24:18I'd rather have that than the Portofino or California.
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1:26:11- All right, so 90 minutes in, you wanna start the show?
1:26:18'Cause I think it's time.
1:26:20- All of our topics are short today, so.
1:26:23- Oh, really?
1:26:24Okay, listeners, buckle up.
1:26:26Let's talk about APFS.
1:26:28- We are really good at short topics here on ATV.
1:26:31Seriously.
1:26:32Okay, so let's talk about this short topic, Jon.
1:26:34The clock is ticking.
1:26:35Tell me about APFS conversion in High Sierra.
1:26:38This is a bit of news that was officially published by Apple this week, or very recently
1:26:42anyway, between the show and last show.
1:26:44They have an article, we'll link in the show, it's official Apple documentation, not about
1:26:48like betas or whatever, but like, "Hey, when you upgrade to macOS High Sierra, systems
1:26:53with all flash storage will be converted automatically to APFS."
1:26:57So if you have a Mac and it has flash storage and you upgrade to the Mac OS High Sierra,
1:27:03you are getting converted to APFS.
1:27:05You cannot opt out of the transition to APFS.
1:27:08This is right from their documentation.
1:27:09So it's not like as in the betas, like, oh, you can convert or not convert and decide
1:27:14later whatever.
1:27:15If you upgrade to High Sierra and you have flash, you're going to get it.
1:27:17Even if you have a third party flash drive, we have one listener write in to say, I have
1:27:20a Mac that shipped with a spinning disk, but I replaced it with SSD upgrade to High Sierra,
1:27:25automatic upgrade to APFS.
1:27:26A lot of people installed one of the later High Sierra betas and didn't even realize
1:27:30they had been converted to APFS because like how would you even tell because it doesn't
1:27:33ask you anything about it, it just does it, right?
1:27:37If you have a hard disk or a fusion drive, you won't be converted.
1:27:41I don't know if that means you can't be, I think you can still go to Disk Utility and
1:27:44decide to convert your thing, but anyway, that's what they're doing.
1:27:47It's a very simple straightforward policy and there's no choice in the matter and we're
1:27:52all just going to deal with it.
1:27:53A couple people have reported their Macs being unbootable, but it's still in beta, and who
1:27:57knows, but I suspect the Mac transition will be rockier than the iOS one.
1:28:01And then the only other minor item on this page that we'll link is Boot Camp doesn't
1:28:05read or write APFS, in case you were wondering.
1:28:08I really hope Boot Camp continues to be supported.
1:28:10I hope they write a read-only driver for APFS so you can at least read your stuff, but right
1:28:15now you won't be able to.
1:28:17Did Boot Camp read HFS?
1:28:19I think there was a read-only driver for HFS.
1:28:22I'm thinking of the other way where they had a read-only driver for NTFS.
1:28:25But either way, there is some way I think you can get HFS volumes, you can at least
1:28:28read from them on Windows, even if it's not through Apple stuff.
1:28:31But APFS is just too new, and if anyone was going to do it, it was going to be Apple,
1:28:34and they didn't yet anyway.
1:28:35Yeah, this is totally a fine change to me.
1:28:40They have this—APFS was automatically converted to and deployed very widely on iOS devices.
1:28:47And as far as we know, nothing bad happened.
1:28:50And yes, the problem set is much smaller on iOS devices.
1:28:54The number of possible configurations is much smaller.
1:28:58The edge case count is way smaller on iOS.
1:29:02But also the install base is way bigger.
1:29:04The usage is way bigger.
1:29:06So it seems like APFS is pretty solid.
1:29:10And I'm sure there are areas like, I believe, they still haven't done automatic integrity
1:29:16checking, right?
1:29:17At the file system level in APFS?
1:29:19Yeah.
1:29:20- Yes sir, the checksum's on metadata only, not on data.
1:29:23- Right, so there are areas of the file system
1:29:25that still could be improved, ideally,
1:29:28but what is there seems to be pretty solid.
1:29:33The fact that they deployed it to every iOS device
1:29:36and that's been running now for months
1:29:39and it's been totally fine, that's pretty great.
1:29:42So we know they're doing this carefully.
1:29:44We know, like Craig Federighi mentioned
1:29:47in the talk show live at ABC this year,
1:29:49how a couple of versions before that,
1:29:53when they deployed to iOS,
1:29:54they would do test migrations and roll them back,
1:29:57and then report back if anything failed to Apple.
1:30:00So they knew what was happening there.
1:30:02There have been some reports,
1:30:04somebody pointed out that the latest Mac OS X update
1:30:07seemed to take a very long time to apply.
1:30:10And so there was a theory that maybe it was doing
1:30:13the same thing, maybe it was doing those test migrations
1:30:15that would then get rolled back before it completed.
1:30:19Like, it seems like Apple knows how to do this.
1:30:22It's already been done on a very, very large scale,
1:30:25and this will be, relatively speaking,
1:30:27a drop in the bucket.
1:30:29Again, there are more edge cases on the Mac,
1:30:31more different configurations that can be used,
1:30:32more ways people use the file system
1:30:34or depend on things working a certain way,
1:30:35but I think they're doing a pretty good job of it,
1:30:38and I trust them to do this correctly and carefully,
1:30:42so I don't think this is bad at all.
1:30:45- You know, that was pretty quick.
1:30:46I have to concede, I am stunned.
1:30:49- All right, so Marco, tell me about the lack of home button
1:30:52on the iPhone Pro slash eight slash whatever it's called,
1:30:56because there seems to have been some news from Bloomberg
1:30:58that there will be no physical home button
1:31:00on the new iPhone.
1:31:02- Well, we already knew there would be no physical home
1:31:04button, but this was more about like,
1:31:06this is today's rumor that came out that basically is
1:31:09claiming a certain way that the software-based home button
1:31:14will work, that is different from what we've heard
1:31:16or assumed in the past.
1:31:17So what we've assumed up till now,
1:31:19or heard up till now as rumors,
1:31:21is basically that there would be an area,
1:31:24basically where the home button is now,
1:31:26but there would be an area on the phone
1:31:29that you would push firmly there and it would go home.
1:31:34And how that would be represented on the screen
1:31:36was up for debate.
1:31:37There was some speculation from the HomePod firmware
1:31:39that maybe there was some kind of home indicator
1:31:42that could show or hide at different times,
1:31:46whether it's like a little circle down there,
1:31:47or a dot, or who knows.
1:31:50This whole area, we know a lot from the HomePod leak
1:31:55and from all the rumor sites.
1:31:56We know some things pretty firmly about like
1:31:58the physical design of the next iPhone.
1:32:01But the whole area that I think is most interesting to me
1:32:05is how the software will actually deal
1:32:07with this physical design.
1:32:09And that is still mostly unknown to us.
1:32:13of all the leaks, including the HomePod firmware,
1:32:16not to mention all the rumors,
1:32:18you would think at first,
1:32:20there's not much surprise left for the event.
1:32:23But actually, to me, there's tons of surprise left,
1:32:25because we still don't have concrete, solid information,
1:32:29and we still haven't seen how the software
1:32:31will actually deal with this bizarre all-screen phone
1:32:34with this notch on the top.
1:32:35That, to me, is the most interesting part,
1:32:37and I think most of that's going to remain a surprise.
1:32:39Anyway, Bloomberg's trying to ruin that a little bit
1:32:41by claiming that the home button is going to work
1:32:44a totally different way that basically,
1:32:46instead of having an area that you push at the bottom,
1:32:48that you're gonna have a swipe up kind of gesture,
1:32:52not that different from what the iPad does
1:32:53in iOS 11 with the dock,
1:32:56like a big swipe up gesture to go home
1:32:58instead of pushing that area at the bottom.
1:33:00And that therefore the entire screen
1:33:04basically will be usable as regular application area,
1:33:07not just having that hole in the bottom for a home button
1:33:11and maybe like a toolbar area to the left and right of it.
1:33:15And if this is true, obviously this raises a lot
1:33:18of questions about implementation details,
1:33:21if this is the direction they go,
1:33:23I am certainly, that's gonna be a major change,
1:33:26so I'm certainly a little wary of it,
1:33:30but it would avoid a lot of issues.
1:33:33Because if you think about, if they do the method
1:33:37that we assumed before this, which is they have
1:33:40like a home area that if you push there,
1:33:42it works like a home button,
1:33:43which I think is roughly what Samsung does
1:33:45with their edge-to-edge thing, right?
1:33:46Like I use one in the store
1:33:47and I just kinda push down there and it seemed to work.
1:33:50So I think that's basically what Samsung does
1:33:51and that worked fine as far as I could tell
1:33:54when I used it for two seconds in a Best Buy.
1:33:55But if they do that, it does raise a lot of questions
1:34:00about things like what happens to app UI that's down there?
1:34:05You know, do you have tab bars still?
1:34:08If so, does the tab bar just go completely on top of that
1:34:13so that that whole bottom half of the screen
1:34:15is just a home button and maybe something
1:34:16on the left and right of it that maybe you can't control
1:34:19or you don't have full control or you can only put
1:34:21maybe a navigation item down there or something like that.
1:34:24Is it like that?
1:34:25'Cause if that's the case, then that whole bottom area
1:34:28is fairly significantly wasted.
1:34:32It's not totally wasted, but it raises the question
1:34:35of why even make it a screen if you're not gonna have
1:34:37much use for that area.
1:34:40If they let applications put content down there,
1:34:43but also have like a big home button hole
1:34:45in the middle of that bottom row,
1:34:47then you have to think, what happens with things
1:34:50like tab bars, where you typically have like, you know,
1:34:53this row of four or five buttons
1:34:56across the bottom of the screen?
1:34:58Do you go with like a two on the left, two on the right,
1:35:01nothing in the middle kind of arrangement,
1:35:02or something like that, and just have a big hole
1:35:05in the middle of any tab bar that goes in there?
1:35:06You can, that's one option, it's not a great option,
1:35:09but you know, you can do that.
1:35:11The claimed method by this Bloomberg article
1:35:14is that it's going to be swipe-based
1:35:17and that basically that the entire screen
1:35:19will be usable for apps, or the vast majority
1:35:21of the screen will be usable by apps most of the time,
1:35:23and there won't be this hole in the middle of the bottom
1:35:26that is reserved for the home button,
1:35:28that some kind of swipe up from the bottom
1:35:30will be used instead to go home.
1:35:32If so, I'm interested to see that.
1:35:36that sounds like it would solve some of these problems,
1:35:39I think it might introduce new problems,
1:35:41but I don't think we know enough as actual fact,
1:35:46not just speculation, to say for sure,
1:35:48obviously this is what they're doing,
1:35:51we don't know that yet,
1:35:51but we don't have enough information here
1:35:54to really know for sure what they're going to do.
1:35:57I would also say that Bloomberg and Germin's record
1:36:01on things like this in recent times has been pretty spotty.
1:36:05So I would not take this as fact
1:36:07and would definitely not take this as a given.
1:36:09- The thing he does lately, which I don't understand
1:36:11'cause it doesn't seem like he needs to do this,
1:36:14is writes about things in the present tense.
1:36:17Like Apple is experimenting with different ways
1:36:20that the home button can work.
1:36:21It's like Apple perhaps did experiment
1:36:23with different ways that the home button would work.
1:36:25But at this point, with the event like a week or two away,
1:36:29Apple's not experimenting with different ways
1:36:31of the home button.
1:36:32Different fundamental ways
1:36:33to use that bottom half of the screen.
1:36:34I'm pretty sure they know.
1:36:36Yeah, like they've picked one by now.
1:36:38Or even like worst case,
1:36:39they have two complete implementations
1:36:41that they're gonna pick between,
1:36:42but they're not in the experimental stage anymore.
1:36:44Like that ship is sailed.
1:36:45Anyway, on this particular thing about the home button,
1:36:49this gives a little bit more of the answer
1:36:51of what the heck do we get with Edge Data Screen?
1:36:52Because if they don't have to dedicate
1:36:53any of the bottom of the screen to essentially to UI,
1:36:56but the app can use it all,
1:36:57hey, I got, and now I can see more tweets, right?
1:36:59Whatever, like it's a benefit.
1:37:01You can see it being a benefit.
1:37:02It makes that part of the screen
1:37:03like you're actually using it.
1:37:04It's not just like a virtual representation
1:37:07of the chin on our phones today.
1:37:11But all that said, if it is swipe based,
1:37:15swiping on phones for me,
1:37:18and I think forever just like in general,
1:37:20to do a successful swipe, case or no case,
1:37:25anything like that is a,
1:37:27it's like you have to find the right balance
1:37:31between how hard you press your finger on the screen
1:37:35and how hard you swipe and how you hold the phone.
1:37:38Because obviously if you press too hard,
1:37:40you get too much friction,
1:37:41it's hard to like slide your finger and do the gesture.
1:37:44If you press too lightly and just graze it,
1:37:46maybe you won't activate,
1:37:47especially if like your fingers are cold or whatever.
1:37:50So there's a balance, like you have to,
1:37:52it requires more finesse to do any kind of swipe gesture
1:37:58than it does to do a button press, virtual or otherwise.
1:38:01because with a button press, you find the place where you need to apply the pressure
1:38:05and you just bear down.
1:38:07And for the most part, unless you go all the way through and activate force touch, but
1:38:10even so, maybe that's not that bad, it is easier to sort of fumble in your pocket and
1:38:15like, obviously with physical buttons, just jam the sleep/wake button, or jam your finger
1:38:20on the home button, moving or otherwise, or if it was the bottom of the screen with the
1:38:25virtual thing, jam your finger somewhere on the bottom of the screen even if you can't
1:38:28feel it because now it's just a screen image.
1:38:30But a swipe requires more finesse.
1:38:32And for a move that you do so frequently, pick up my phone, put my finger on Touch ID,
1:38:36unlock it, open it up, pick it up, activate it or whatever, or just hit the home button
1:38:41to switch between apps or double tap to do the switcher, I'm a little bit wary of my
1:38:47dexterity for that common maneuver to feel as comfortable as it does to me to just blindly,
1:38:55ham-fistedly press somewhere on the phone, wherever that might be.
1:39:00But I think my weariness will probably, even if it is slightly worse, I think it will be
1:39:05made up for by the additional screen real estate.
1:39:07Because the screen real estate you enjoy all the time.
1:39:10And the additional dexterity required to pull up the swipe things, A, is probably only a
1:39:14problem for old people.
1:39:16Like for younger people who are more plastic and they'll just get used to it, right?
1:39:21But B, as often as you may do that, as often as you may activate the home button, you spend
1:39:26way more time staring at your phone screen and scrolling through lists of stuff.
1:39:29So I think in the end it's going to be a trade-off, but I am a little bit wary of more swipe gestures.
1:39:35Because I just think of all the swipe gestures I do on my phone now and how occasionally
1:39:38I'm not successful at them, and that's not a pleasant experience, whereas I'm pretty
1:39:42much always successful at pressing the home button.
1:39:44Yeah, there's a lot of potential for conflict with that gesture.
1:39:50Any gesture that involves a big swipe from any of the sides of the phone or in any large
1:39:56direction on the phone, you're going to have substantial conflict risk with that, with
1:40:01other things within apps or even other system gestures.
1:40:04You know, obviously one of the big questions is what do you do with control center?
1:40:08Is it the kind of thing where you pull up a little bit and you get control center and
1:40:11you pull up a lot and you go home or vice versa?
1:40:13Like who knows?
1:40:14>> Have you used iOS 11?
1:40:15Was that weird?
1:40:17The same thing they have on iOS 11 with the multi?
1:40:18You pull up a little bit and it brings the dock, but if you keep pulling it's the other
1:40:21thing.
1:40:22And even just on iOS 10, I found myself, I'm really good at this gesture, but I found myself
1:40:25looking at it consciously today and realizing how good I am at making this fine distinction
1:40:31after lots of practice.
1:40:32If you pull down from the top of your phone, like I think, if I think notifications, my
1:40:36thumb pulls down from the top of my phone and I see notifications.
1:40:39If I think launch an application that I just launched, my thumb pulls down from the top
1:40:43of the phone and it shows recent applications because I'm on Springboard.
1:40:46They're two different gestures.
1:40:47You have to start above the edge of the screen for the notifications and below the edge of
1:40:50the screen and be on Springboard for the apps, but I just do them without thinking.
1:40:55So I guess that's the best case scenario, that this is a bottom of the phone gesture,
1:40:59but it's pretty picky.
1:41:00Like, try to explain to somebody the nuances of swiping from off the edge of the screen
1:41:04versus just swiping sideways.
1:41:06I've seen many people do the wrong version of that to bad effect and not understand why
1:41:11they didn't pull it off.
1:41:13It's learnable, but again, it's subtle and it requires much more finesse than press this
1:41:17big circular button to bring back the place where you see all your apps.
1:41:21Yeah.
1:41:22I'm curious to see where this goes.
1:41:24And a lot of people have been making comparisons to WebOS,
1:41:26which is presumably completely reasonable,
1:41:30but I never used a WebOS device,
1:41:31so I don't know squat about it.
1:41:32But I don't know, I'm curious to see where this goes
1:41:35and see how it feels in execution,
1:41:37because I can tell you that my initial,
1:41:40I only have iOS 11 on my iPad,
1:41:42and my initial impression of putting it there
1:41:45was where did Control Center go?
1:41:47And eventually I was able to deduce,
1:41:49"Oh, you just need to swipe further?"
1:41:52But golly, that's tough for a normal user
1:41:57that isn't really thinking about these sorts of things.
1:42:00And I didn't care for it at all at first.
1:42:03And over time, I've gotten used to it,
1:42:05the deep swipe, or deep isn't the best word,
1:42:08but the long swipe in order to get control center.
1:42:10But we'll see how it works on the phone.
1:42:13I am really excited about the prospect
1:42:15of having a phone that's sized for humans,
1:42:17but has the screen from the Plus,
1:42:21so, or you know, roughly anyway.
1:42:23So I'm very anxious about the thought
1:42:25of being able to buy one of those,
1:42:27despite the fact that it's apparently going to be
1:42:29like over $1,000, which I'm not too thrilled about,
1:42:31but you know, it is what it is.
1:42:34- Yeah, honestly, I,
1:42:35whatever acrobatics are required to have this phone work
1:42:40the way we want with things like touch ID, face ID,
1:42:44screen sizes, edge swiping, all this stuff,
1:42:47I think it's probably gonna be worth it
1:42:48because there's been this tension in the iPhone line
1:42:52ever since the introduction of the plus size phones,
1:42:54which is like many of us, myself included,
1:42:58want the screen of the plus,
1:43:00like we want the biggest screen we can get,
1:43:03but those phones are just too big for us
1:43:05to comfortably carry and use and hold and everything else.
1:43:09So the idea of having a much bigger screen
1:43:13in the phone size that we're able to carry now,
1:43:16like the middle size or something very close to it,
1:43:19that's exactly what everybody wants.
1:43:22That is so desirable that I think we're gonna be willing
1:43:25to tolerate quite a lot of weirdness and transitions
1:43:30and even possibly downsides to get that
1:43:32because that is not a small thing.
1:43:34Anyway, thanks for our three sponsors this week,
1:43:38Casper, Audible, and Fracture, and we'll see you next week.
1:43:42(upbeat music)
1:43:45Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin
1:43:49'Cause it was accidental (accidental)
1:43:52Oh, it was accidental (accidental)
1:43:55John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him
1:44:00'Cause it was accidental (accidental)
1:44:03Oh, it was accidental (accidental)
1:44:06And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm
1:44:11And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them
1:44:16@C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S
1:44:20So that's Kasey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M
1:44:24Auntie Marco Armin, S-I-R-A-C
1:44:29USA, Syracuse
1:44:32It's accidental
1:44:35They didn't mean to
1:44:37Accidental
1:44:40♫ Tech podcast so long
1:44:43- So Casey, what is your deep thought about batteries,
1:44:48as indicated in the show notes?
1:44:50- It's actually a question, and it's probably silly,
1:44:53but I was thinking about this the other day,
1:44:55and I was wondering if I could choose,
1:44:59and thus I will be asking the two of you as well,
1:45:01if I could choose one corporation that exists today
1:45:05to make a just night and day battery breakthrough.
1:45:09So let's assume for the sake of this hypothetical that it takes, you know, one hundredth of
1:45:16the time to charge whatever battery we're talking about.
1:45:18So if it's an iPhone, it takes like, you know, a few seconds or something like that.
1:45:23And if it's a Tesla, it takes maybe ten minutes or something to go from empty to full, or
1:45:27maybe less than that, given that the superchargers are pretty darn quick.
1:45:31So if you could pick one and only one company to make just an utterly amazing battery breakthrough,
1:45:39Who would it be?
1:45:40And the obvious answer for the three of us is Apple,
1:45:44because we want our iPhones to last forever,
1:45:46but I think it's bigger than that, right?
1:45:47- I wouldn't pick Apple.
1:45:49- Right, so I never really reached a great conclusion,
1:45:53which is funny for me to be bringing it up.
1:45:55I feel like some auto manufacturer may be the best answer
1:46:00so that we could get into real honest to goodness
1:46:04electric cars that aren't compromised mobiles.
1:46:06To be fair, the Tesla is amazing.
1:46:08It is amazing and the compromises are made
1:46:11in the best possible way, but in a lot of ways,
1:46:13I still feel like it's a series of compromises.
1:46:15So I feel like some auto manufacturer, maybe Tesla,
1:46:18would be a really great answer here,
1:46:21but I have a feeling after listening to you two,
1:46:24I'll be convinced that maybe there's a better choice.
1:46:27So Jon, you seem pretty enthusiastic about this.
1:46:30What would you say?
1:46:30If you could pick one company
1:46:32to make just a tremendous battery breakthrough,
1:46:35who would it be?
1:46:36So it's not a tremendous battery breakthrough unless--
1:46:39because there are battery technologies
1:46:40that do exactly what you're saying.
1:46:42But unless it also works out with a cost
1:46:44in manufacturability and the resources it uses.
1:46:47So that's what you're talking about when you say a breakthrough,
1:46:48right?
1:46:49And in the end, batteries are a commodity.
1:46:51So ideally, this breakthrough would
1:46:55come from academia or something not associated with the company.
1:46:58That would probably be the easiest
1:46:59and gives you your best chance not
1:47:02to be encumbered by stupid patents or whatever.
1:47:04But in the end, what I want it to be is something that is able to be produced on a large scale
1:47:14by some boring company that just produces things on a large scale.
1:47:18So maybe an existing battery manufacturer, or like, you know, General Motors or Siemens,
1:47:23Panasonic.
1:47:24Yeah, or like any, you know, whatever giant corporation that makes commodities out of
1:47:30natural resources is the least evil, right?
1:47:32But either way, I don't want it to be under control by a single company, right?
1:47:37And I want it to be the type of thing that everybody has access to.
1:47:40Because in the same way that they're building up all this battery capacity for all the electric
1:47:44vehicles, the car industry is actually not a bad place.
1:47:47Because in general, there is very little technological secret sauce in terms of the commodities.
1:47:54Like Toyota will sell its hybrid power trains to other people if they're going to pay for
1:47:58them.
1:47:59If someone has excess capacity to manufacture some commodity type thing, they will sell
1:48:02to other people, right?
1:48:03So I want it to be a very large company
1:48:05that's good at building things, you know,
1:48:08for everybody else and that it's all just like,
1:48:10I will sell this to everybody who wants to sell it
1:48:12and it just becomes a commodity
1:48:13that everybody is able to manufacture
1:48:15because the breakthrough happened in academia
1:48:17and all the patents are freely available.
1:48:21I wouldn't want Apple to do it or Tesla or any other thing
1:48:23because I'm afraid they tried to turn it
1:48:24into a competitive advantage.
1:48:25That's the last thing we want.
1:48:27We want the technology to spread everywhere far and wide.
1:48:29We don't want it to be, oh, this lets Apple and/or Tesla
1:48:34extract an extra six months or a year of larger profits
1:48:38because it takes longer for everyone else to catch up.
1:48:40So it's not a very satisfying answer,
1:48:42but it's just, you know, it's not the old world
1:48:46where like there's a breakthrough
1:48:49and it belongs to a company.
1:48:50Things like this, like battery capacity or CPUs,
1:48:53or like, you know, whatever, material science in general
1:48:56should be and generally are industry-wide.
1:48:59Marco? Yeah, I think Jon covered it pretty well.
1:49:05Obviously the right answer is basically what Jon said. A more interesting specific answer,
1:49:11if you think about what types of products or uses are really held back by battery technology
1:49:18today, and you can look at things like computers and phones and the tech gadgets that we all
1:49:24and in many ways, we're doing just fine.
1:49:27Like, yeah, everyone could, we would all love
1:49:31more battery life.
1:49:32We would all love to not have to plug in ever
1:49:34or to have, to actually be able to use
1:49:37the amazing computing resources that are in
1:49:38these mobile devices frequently and all day
1:49:42without having to like massively throttle
1:49:45all the applications and very tightly control power
1:49:48and you know, obviously it would make a big difference
1:49:50in things like the Apple Watch where like,
1:49:52the application paradigms and the display uses
1:49:55could be so much better if we didn't have to worry
1:49:57so much about power constantly.
1:49:59So that's kind of like the boring answer,
1:50:01like yeah, make all of our tech gadgets
1:50:02have way better batteries, that would be nice.
1:50:05But we still have a great tech industry
1:50:09and these gadgets are still awesome
1:50:11and amazingly capable even with what we already have.
1:50:13So I think it might be more interesting to look at like,
1:50:16where are areas in which batteries and battery technology
1:50:20just is not good enough to even make big shifts possible yet
1:50:24or ever.
1:50:25So obviously you can look at transportation in other ways
1:50:28and you can say obviously airplanes currently can't be
1:50:31electrically powered because the power and weight ratio
1:50:34is just way off.
1:50:35- Don't say that.
1:50:37There are plenty of electric powered airplanes.
1:50:38You mean airliners, right?
1:50:39- Yeah, big airplanes, yeah.
1:50:41There's large parts of transportation that
1:50:45battery technology, like batteries are just too heavy
1:50:48or too big or don't have the capacity or charge too slowly.
1:50:53One area that's recently getting a little bit of traction
1:50:56in the electric vehicle news is trucks, long haul trucks,
1:51:01like big semis and stuff.
1:51:03Lots of energy is spent on trucking
1:51:05and if you can electrify trucks the way that cars
1:51:08are gonna be electrified,
1:51:10that could have pretty substantial savings
1:51:13to both people who truck and also the environment
1:51:16around all these things.
1:51:18That could be a pretty significant fuel reduction.
1:51:20And trucks have an issue where you need a lot of power
1:51:25to move a big semi-truck with a big trailer and everything.
1:51:28It's just a big load,
1:51:29and they're not particularly aerodynamic,
1:51:32so you need a lot of power.
1:51:33And also, truckers can't afford to sit around
1:51:37for like two hours while things recharge every 100 miles.
1:51:40That's not feasible for that business.
1:51:43So for trucks to be electrified,
1:51:46you need significant improvements for that to really be a thing that could take off.
1:51:51So like, I would lean more towards areas like that, where like things that like, you basically
1:51:56just can't do efficiently with batteries as we know them today, just because like, the
1:52:02ratios and the economics and whatever else are just completely infeasible as we know
1:52:06them today. That would be my answer, is like, find things that we just can't really do electrically
1:52:13today in a reasonable way, make those more practical
1:52:17or more feasible.
1:52:18So obviously, things like trucks, I would say probably
1:52:22like container ships, like big ships in the ocean,
1:52:25similar problem, airliners, like other parts
1:52:28of transportation that it would be nice to eliminate
1:52:32their emissions or reduce their emissions at least,
1:52:35and we just can't do that yet.
1:52:38- Oh, I forgot, clothing, going in the other direction.
1:52:40Your battery breakthrough could be amazing fast
1:52:43charging tiny lightweight
1:52:45Inexpensive waterproof batteries that you can weave into clothing so that you can stream Spotify from your shorts because your shorts know how to stream Spotify
1:52:52Like that's the other that's the other direction of like oh, there's so many places where you can't use
1:52:58Electric power at all because batteries are too big and bulky and it would be too much of a hassle
1:53:02But if batteries were the size of grains of sand and enough energy to stream Spotify all day
1:53:07It would be in every piece of clothing you own if they were also cheap to manufacture, right?
1:53:11Do what I want my shorts to be playing music. I'm not I'm not entirely sure it plays it into your ears
1:53:16But it's the thing that receives the radio signals and sends it through Bluetooth version 8 bazillion up into your your magic air pods
1:53:23Whatever they could use bone conduction technology and send it through my sit bones
1:53:36Feel like there's some humanitarian angle here that we're not considering, you know, it's like providing power to
1:53:41Communities that simply don't have any like it's not even an option or it's unaffordable or whatever the case
1:53:46That's like storage of solar energy
1:53:49That's it
1:53:49You know a battery that just battery breakthrough but just like the energy problem
1:53:52like if you want world peace if you could solve the energy problem and there was like free energy for everybody that would
1:53:57Solve a lot of problems really quickly because energy is convertible as you may know into many other goods and services
1:54:03Right, and it's all like if you can solve that problem
1:54:06Like it doesn't take like, you know
1:54:10The old sort of sci-fi utopia is like if you had unlimited free energy for everybody
1:54:15No one needs to work anymore
1:54:16like you just need to have this sort of base level technology to convert that energy into food and shelter and
1:54:21other types of things like it's you know, but we're you know, that's
1:54:26Thermodynamics has something to say about the whole free energy thing, but we could you know deplete the the earth
1:54:32Firefly style and live on the high on the hog for a while until the machines take over and enslave us all
1:54:37Well, it's a positive outlook John, but Marco will be dead so he doesn't care
1:54:43[laughter]
1:54:48(beeping)