237: You Are Not a Datacenter


00:00:00   Someone trying to spell took us and they're spelling it T you Q you a ass it is not derived from Spanish to quads

00:00:06   Oh, that is not the way to spell

00:00:08   You are the wrong region of the world for the origin of that. That's magnificent

00:00:13   I love Sean people to the chat earlier people who truck equals truck ists

00:00:17   Somehow I missed that joke

00:00:21   That's people who are prejudiced against trucks. We already established that. Yes

00:00:25   Like me with the stupid Cherokee with a would you stop with that lowered and big it's so ridiculous

00:00:31   It's the worst thing ever didn't I tell this story on neutral?

00:00:34   I'm it's it's December in Connecticut and for those who are not aware Connecticut doesn't believe in salting the roads

00:00:40   They believe in sanding the roads. So the entire state is just one big sandbox. It's December

00:00:45   It's Connecticut and there's sand everywhere and we're at a T, you know, so we have to make either a left or right

00:00:51   It's my friend's SRT8 Grand Cherokee and similarly to the Eclipse turbo that we were talking about earlier

00:00:57   He looks over and says are you holding on? I'm like what the fuck are you talking about? We're about to do a 90-degree turn

00:01:01   Why would I need to hold on? I was like, yeah, okay sure next thing

00:01:05   I know he stands on the gas and

00:01:06   We make this 90-degree turn like we were getting shot out of a cannon. It was the most amazing thing in the world

00:01:12   No, no fast car fine, but like it's like let's make something that is not designed to go fast

00:01:17   but let's make it go fast.

00:01:19   - No, that's the beauty of it.

00:01:20   - There is a perverse thing in that,

00:01:22   but in the end it's an abomination.

00:01:23   It's just like, let's take a chihuahua,

00:01:26   but make it a pack animal.

00:01:28   Like, we'll have it carry all our suitcases

00:01:30   down to the Grand Canyon.

00:01:31   And if you could do that, it's like,

00:01:32   wow, that's the world's strongest chihuahua,

00:01:33   but like, that is the wrong tool for the job.

00:01:36   - That is a terrible analogy.

00:01:37   I am disappointed.

00:01:38   You are usually so good at coming up with decent analogies

00:01:43   in a way that I am terrible.

00:01:44   - It was reversed, because I'm taking the small thing

00:01:46   making it big, but it's like making a hippo dance.

00:01:48   That's what you're trying to do,

00:01:49   and it's just, like, why would you do that?

00:01:52   There's perfectly good cars that are not big, tall,

00:01:54   tippy, gross things made to go off-road.

00:01:56   They want to go fast.

00:01:58   The Jeep Cherokee doesn't want to go fast.

00:02:00   What are you doing?

00:02:01   Oh, and they lower it.

00:02:02   They take a car with good ground clearance,

00:02:04   and then you lower it.

00:02:05   What are you even doing?

00:02:07   Why?

00:02:07   You're just ruining a car.

00:02:09   - No, it's porque no los dos.

00:02:10   Why can't you have both?

00:02:11   Why can't you have this convenient car that's--

00:02:14   - Because you can't,

00:02:15   because the thing is like 17 feet high and rolls over.

00:02:17   You can't. - No, it doesn't.

00:02:19   I just explained to you.

00:02:20   We did a 90 degree turn at like 30.

00:02:21   - You can lower it as much as you want.

00:02:23   The center of gravity of that car is not the same

00:02:25   as the center of gravity of a sports car that's down low.

00:02:28   - So if somebody offered you a Porsche,

00:02:31   it's not the Cayman, the Cayenne.

00:02:34   The Cayenne Turbo. - And the McCann

00:02:35   is the even bigger one.

00:02:36   I would sell it and use that money

00:02:37   to probably not buy a better car.

00:02:39   But if I was forced to, if I was forced to,

00:02:41   I said, "You have to get a car,"

00:02:42   I would immediately sell it

00:02:43   I would use that money to buy a million other cars that I'd rather have why why do you hate fun John?

00:02:49   Why do you hate fun?

00:02:50   And what's the next suggestion a monster truck Ferrari? Why can't I have both look it's like a Ferrari?

00:02:54   But also you can crush cars with it. No now it's bad

00:02:57   What have you done and a monster truck Ferrari would still look cooler than that Jeep?

00:03:02   Hate you so much and yet I don't

00:03:11   So we should get this show started and as per usual we have to start with some follow-up and you know

00:03:17   Here's the thing you guys we've been doing the show for what almost three and a half years now

00:03:22   is that right because it was 2013 if I'm not mistaken and

00:03:25   And you know, I knew both of you guys pretty well when we started I knew Marco a little bit better

00:03:30   But I knew both you guys pretty well, but had you told me in in 2013?

00:03:34   Yeah, you know you're still gonna be doing this in 2017. I'd probably been like that's surprising but okay

00:03:40   I'll believe it. If you had told me in 2013, "Well, you will have multiple episodes of follow-up about Marco's hindquarters,"

00:03:46   I'm not sure I would have believed that one.

00:03:49   He's got a horse. I don't know if he has hindquarters, exactly.

00:03:52   Marco's tushy.

00:03:55   I was gonna go with tushy.

00:03:57   We keep riffing on all the different-- his posterior, his derriere, his fanny, but fanny means something different in the UK, so.

00:04:04   You really did grow up in a mixed environment if you know tuchus. I'm very proud of you, John.

00:04:09   Tush is derived from that, I think. It's all just, you know.

00:04:12   Well, anyway, so let's talk about Marcos Tuckus. Why don't you tell me about whether

00:04:17   cushioned saddles are good or bad? And I don't know if I'm talking to Marco or John, but

00:04:21   whoever put this in the show knows.

00:04:22   I'm talking to me. So this is from Ahmad Al-Hashimi, who says, "Cushioned saddles are bad." You

00:04:26   can tell it's a bike person when they say "saddles," because regular people call them

00:04:31   seats, but "bike-ist," does Mark say. Mark. Marco, whatever that guy's name is. They're

00:04:36   They're good dogs, Mark.

00:04:37   They're saddles.

00:04:38   Anyway, he says, "When you sit on a large cushion seat, the cushioning material ensures

00:04:44   pressure is placed over the entire region.

00:04:46   It goes into the nooks and crannies between your thighs and finds all the sensitive areas

00:04:50   to ensure maximum pressure."

00:04:52   Yikes.

00:04:53   "What you want instead," and this was repeated by many people who sent in feedback, but I

00:04:59   just picked this one as representative.

00:05:00   "What you want instead is contact at your sit bones and nothing else."

00:05:03   Did you know you have sit bones?

00:05:04   If you read the dozens of emails that talk about sit bones that were sent to our show,

00:05:09   you would know.

00:05:10   Yeah.

00:05:11   I thought this was a term the first person was making up, but then we got multiple people

00:05:14   telling us about sit bones.

00:05:16   Apparently, I mean, I haven't done any more medical research on this topic, but multiple

00:05:19   people seem to think these are real things.

00:05:22   Yeah.

00:05:23   And so he says, with some honesty, soreness at the contact areas, ideally the sit bones,

00:05:26   is to be expected for the new cyclist.

00:05:28   By the way, many people wrote in to tell Marco that it's not a bikist, as if he didn't know

00:05:32   that.

00:05:33   Sometimes it's hard to tell if Arko's joking.

00:05:35   I myself have difficulty sometimes.

00:05:37   But rest assured, he knows.

00:05:39   Bicus is a bad joke.

00:05:41   He likens it to the soreness in your feet when you first start using a standing desk.

00:05:47   Numbness is much more ominous sign.

00:05:49   It means pressure is being placed on the wrong spots, cutting off blood supply or pressing unnerved.

00:05:52   So the consensus seems to be, padding aside, what you want is most of your weight to be on these sit bones

00:06:00   and not sort of distributed across all the different parts because then no

00:06:05   matter how you sit it's like squishing all your soft tissues together and

00:06:08   cutting off blood flow whereas apparently I'm guessing there's a path

00:06:12   from the sit bones you know it's kind of like jacking a car put it that way when

00:06:16   you jack up a car you put it on the jack points you don't take the jack and put

00:06:18   it in a soft squishy part underneath your car and start cranking it because

00:06:21   bad things will happen so anyway I debated even putting this in here but I

00:06:26   feel like this is good information for other people who are getting into

00:06:30   bikes or not into bikes and are wondering about bike seat stuff, there was very loud

00:06:35   consensus that it's all about you and your sit bones and then making good contact and

00:06:38   that not having pressure on other places. So, there you go.

00:06:42   Thank you for all the bikest for your feedback about my James Damore.

00:06:48   It sounds like they're like, yeah, well, it sounds like they're prejudiced against bikes,

00:06:51   they're bikest.

00:06:53   (laughing)

00:06:55   - Nice.

00:06:56   Speaking of jacking up cars,

00:06:57   it always drove me nuts because anytime I wanted to jack up,

00:07:01   I think it was the Subaru, I don't think it was the BMW,

00:07:03   the official jack point for the rear of the car

00:07:06   was to jack up by the rear differential,

00:07:08   which just seems like a terrible idea to me.

00:07:12   They were like, "Yeah, just put it onto the rear pumpkin

00:07:13   "and go to town, you'll be fine."

00:07:15   Just seems bananas.

00:07:16   - Probably a pretty strong part of the car.

00:07:17   I mean, I presumably didn't know

00:07:19   what they're talking about.

00:07:20   They made the car, they're not gonna, you know.

00:07:21   - I know, one would think,

00:07:22   But it just struck me as wrong.

00:07:24   Anyway, Mo Rubinsal wants to talk about Backblaze backup limits and also wants to know, "How

00:07:30   do folks back up their applications folder?

00:07:32   Because Backblaze exempts it and restructuring it would be hell."

00:07:36   I don't.

00:07:37   Or at least, I don't think I would want to.

00:07:40   Because if I wanted to back everything up in my applications folder, I would rather

00:07:46   just recreate it by hand, because I don't think I want any of this stuff in there.

00:07:49   In fact, one of my favorite blog posts that I wrote, which is mostly for myself, as kind

00:07:54   of a long-term memory, but it's talking about here's all the things I would install when

00:08:00   reinstalling a new Mac, or starting a new Mac.

00:08:03   So I used that for the Mac with Adorable, I used it for the 5K iMac.

00:08:07   I don't use Migration Assistant, generally speaking, because even though it's unlike

00:08:11   the Windows when I was using Windows, and this is probably Marco's era as well, that

00:08:15   had to reinstall everything, we had to just destroy everything and start anew every six

00:08:20   months to clear out all the cruft that just magically appears. You know, Mac OS is not

00:08:25   like that, but when I get a new machine, eh, it's time.

00:08:29   >> Yeah, I also don't ever back up my applications folder unless it's like from like automatically

00:08:35   doing it from things like Time Machine or a disk clone. I think the main advantage to

00:08:39   backing up your applications folder is if you're literally just cloning your entire

00:08:43   and if you want fast recovery after a disaster.

00:08:47   And there is definitely a role for that.

00:08:50   You should have some, like one of your backup methods

00:08:52   should be like a straight up copy of your entire disc

00:08:56   because then if you do have a disc failure,

00:08:58   you can restore that onto a new disc or a new computer

00:09:01   very quickly compared to downloading things

00:09:03   off of an internet backup.

00:09:05   An internet backup is like a last resort

00:09:07   because it is slower, it goes over the internet,

00:09:10   you might have limited upstream

00:09:12   so you might not want to upload every single thing

00:09:14   you have on your disk if you can easily get it

00:09:16   through other means.

00:09:18   So there is definitely a role for including

00:09:21   applications folders in backups, but I totally see

00:09:24   why it's not included in Backblaze's cloud backup by default.

00:09:28   Again, we should disclose that Backblaze

00:09:31   is a frequent sponsor of our show,

00:09:33   but I'm saying this probably to defend them,

00:09:36   but also not because they are paying us sometimes,

00:09:40   but simply because I think that it makes sense

00:09:44   to exclude that for a cloud backup

00:09:45   because the purpose of cloud backup is like last resort

00:09:48   where, and applications folders are really easy

00:09:51   to reconstruct with just time.

00:09:53   You're not permanently losing data there,

00:09:55   you're just losing some time to redownload applications,

00:09:58   reinstall applications and everything.

00:09:59   But yeah, for a full disk copy method

00:10:02   like Time Machine or Super Duper, Carbon Copy Clone

00:10:05   or things like that, any kind of disk cloning method,

00:10:07   it makes sense to include that, just for speed of recovery.

00:10:11   - So we talked about this a long time ago,

00:10:12   one of our earlier shows about backups.

00:10:14   I think it was when we were all just started

00:10:16   using Backblaze, actually even before

00:10:17   maybe they sponsored the show.

00:10:18   - It was.

00:10:19   - This is, I was discussing like the fact

00:10:21   that Backblaze excludes a lot of stuff.

00:10:23   And they had like a hard coded,

00:10:25   they have a thing where you can say what you want to exclude,

00:10:27   but they have a hard coded exclude list

00:10:29   and it excluded stuff that I wanted backed up.

00:10:31   So at that time I hacked up whatever XML file

00:10:34   they had buried somewhere in the /library folder,

00:10:37   not the home directory one, but the one at the top level of the disk.

00:10:39   There was some XML file somewhere that you could mess with to make it back up things

00:10:44   that are in the quote unquote hard-quoted exclude list.

00:10:49   And I think that technique still works, and it's just as unsupported and dangerous and

00:10:56   do at your own risk, but it is a thing that I do.

00:10:59   Frequently that file moves around and changes or whatever, but I'm pretty sure it's still

00:11:02   working for me.

00:11:05   So basically you can make backblaze back up stuff that it says it doesn't want to back

00:11:09   up if you're willing to live a little dangerously.

00:11:14   But like Mark said, you should just be losing time.

00:11:16   Because applications, it's annoying, but none of your data is there.

00:11:20   You didn't write those applications, right?

00:11:22   And these days, the chances are very good that you have some reasonably convenient way

00:11:28   to get those applications back.

00:11:30   The company you bought it from has some record that you bought it.

00:11:32   They can let you re-download it.

00:11:33   Even if it came on plastic disks, I'm hoping you're saving those plastic disks somewhere.

00:11:37   And if you're not saving them, I'm hoping you can contact the vendor that you bought

00:11:40   it from and say, "Hey, my house burned down.

00:11:41   I lost my plastic disks and I got the software back."

00:11:44   But realistically speaking, most applications you're going to want to launch these days,

00:11:47   you have to be able to download them some way.

00:11:49   And if you can download them, there's probably some record on their servers about the fact

00:11:52   that you own it.

00:11:53   So it may be annoying, but like Margo said, if you find yourself restoring from an internet

00:11:58   backup, many, many things have gone wrong and you're probably just so happy that you

00:12:01   have your precious data preserved in any form that you're not, you know, you're

00:12:04   gonna be spending like days and days possibly weeks restoring anyway so don't

00:12:08   worry about it but yeah but I but I because it's unlimited backups I'm like

00:12:11   you know what go ahead back up my applications folder why not. So crash plan

00:12:16   does have a native client for Macs maybe so we've got a lot of feedback saying

00:12:23   that the enterprise crash plan client is actually native and if you recall one of

00:12:28   One of the things that really drives me freaking bananas about CrashPlan as a consumer is that

00:12:34   it's a Java-based, cross-platform, utter garbage app.

00:12:39   I guess saying Java-based and utter garbage is redundant, but here we are.

00:12:43   That joke will never stop being funny, I'm sorry.

00:12:45   So anyway.

00:12:46   And we got zero negative feedback on it.

00:12:47   I know.

00:12:48   I'm surprised.

00:12:49   I'm not.

00:12:50   So anyway, there's been a lot of people coming to us saying, "Hey, the Enterprise client

00:12:56   is actually native."

00:12:57   it may not be so bad once you do the migration.

00:13:00   Except maybe not.

00:13:01   So Phil Stollery wrote in to say to us

00:13:03   that he just upgraded to CrashPlan for small business,

00:13:06   which, to be fair, is not necessarily

00:13:08   the same as Enterprise.

00:13:10   And he said it's the same crappy Java app.

00:13:12   And he said that he was only allowed

00:13:14   to use version 4.9, which I guess is still Java,

00:13:17   not the Enterprise version, which is 6.x.

00:13:20   So tread carefully.

00:13:22   I still haven't taken any action on my backup strategy

00:13:25   yet because I'm procrastinating and sticking my head in the sand like an ostrich trying

00:13:29   to pretend that it's not an issue. But be wary that things may not be all roses and

00:13:36   daffodils in the crash plan for small business category.

00:13:39   I'm wondering how you can get, if it's possible to get that native version even if you're a small

00:13:46   business customer. But I've been running the Java version forever and I said it's not,

00:13:49   like it doesn't bother me. I don't see the application. I just see the icon in the menu

00:13:53   your bar it's probably using a lot more memory and CPU than I want but it has pretty good

00:13:56   controls about you can tell it don't even start doing a backup unless the machine has

00:14:00   been idle for a certain period of time you can always stop it if it's in the middle of

00:14:03   doing something and honestly with a with a big Mac with lots of RAM and an SSD you just

00:14:09   don't notice it running even though it's a bloated Java application and you know it's

00:14:13   probably doing ridiculous things and if you bring up activity monitor you may get sad

00:14:16   about it but you know you can always pause it and tell it not to run now and then just

00:14:20   do your stuff and then let it run when you're away where you don't have to see what it's

00:14:23   doing to your computer? Fair enough. Speaking of CrashPlan, there is a 5 terabyte migration

00:14:29   limit, which I was not aware of. So this is a CrashPlan support article entitled "Migrate

00:14:34   Your CrashPlan for Home Accounts to CrashPlan for Small Business." It's dated a little over

00:14:39   a week ago. And it says that, "Hey, your backup, do my backups continue automatically?" And

00:14:46   the backup type, "Cloud backups to CrashPlan Central," CrashPlan Central being their cloud

00:14:50   offering. Does it continue? Yes, except very large backups over 5 terabytes. And just seconds

00:14:55   ago I took a look to see how big my latest backup was to CrashPlane Central. Would anyone

00:15:00   like to guess how big it was?

00:15:01   >> 5.1.

00:15:02   >> 5.3 terabytes, woo!

00:15:04   >> 3, yeah. I'm just under 5. I'm like 4.8 or something, so I'm happy. I've already done

00:15:09   this conversion. It already updated my client. It updated my client to the--it's still the

00:15:13   Java client, but the color scheme is different. I'm pretty sure that's the only change.

00:15:16   >> Oh, interesting.

00:15:17   >> So I'm running 4.9 or whatever. But yeah, it just continued my backups.

00:15:19   Oh man, that's, that's, I'm jealous.

00:15:24   Because apparently I'm, so it's not that I can't use this new home and business, or small

00:15:28   business thing, but apparently I'm going to have to re-upload everything.

00:15:31   Hooray.

00:15:32   Maybe you should contact them and say, "Very large backups over 5 terabytes?

00:15:37   Well, I'm a little bit over.

00:15:39   Like how, how, you know, can't you just, you know, grandfather me in?

00:15:44   I'm close."

00:15:45   Like, I don't know.

00:15:46   Yeah, something like that.

00:15:47   I don't know.

00:15:48   I'm sad.

00:15:49   I'm sad. I need to take action on this. I just, I really don't want to. I just want

00:15:53   it to go away. And ignoring it does not make it go away, but I wish it did.

00:15:58   All right. So ARQ versus Backblaze versus Crash Plan on saving Mac metadata. So this

00:16:05   is something I've never paid attention to because I don't really care enough, even

00:16:09   though I probably should. So as the person who is most likely to care about this, John,

00:16:14   why don't you tell me about what's going on here?

00:16:16   This was a larger story like maybe two years ago.

00:16:19   I think Backblaze was starting to come to prominence and Arc was a lot newer than it

00:16:24   is now.

00:16:25   And one of Arc's big selling points was, "Hey, we back up all your Mac metadata, like every

00:16:30   little bit of it, all the labels and the dates and the comment field and like every little

00:16:34   weird bit, the finder flags and all the other stuff, we back it all up."

00:16:38   And there's another program, I'm not sure if it's associated with Arc, if it's written

00:16:41   by the same guy or if it's totally independent, but it called Backup Bouncer that was trying

00:16:45   to say, if you make a backup and restore the backup,

00:16:50   is it exactly like it was before, down to the bit,

00:16:52   down to every single piece of metadata?

00:16:55   And you could care more or less about different things

00:16:58   at various times.

00:16:59   People who use labels, like Mac OS's labels,

00:17:03   where you can label your items in the Finder

00:17:05   with different colors and give the colors

00:17:06   names and stuff like that.

00:17:08   If you use that extensively, or tags,

00:17:11   which is the expansion of labels,

00:17:13   If you use that stuff extensively and you do a backup,

00:17:16   but that's how you organize your files, right?

00:17:18   And you do a backup and you restore

00:17:19   and all that stuff is gone,

00:17:21   that is essentially data loss for you.

00:17:22   So you care a lot about that metadata.

00:17:26   Backup Bouncer is down to the bit thing.

00:17:28   I remember like SuperDuper would fail on Backup Bouncer

00:17:31   because it didn't restore permissions on things

00:17:34   that didn't have the rights to restore,

00:17:37   like it changed the ownership or changed some,

00:17:40   like it's very picky about exactly what you wanna have,

00:17:43   But the general line from these companies about why their products don't do well on

00:17:49   BackupBouncer is like, "Well, we are not a bit-for-bit imaging system.

00:17:54   We are a data backup solution.

00:17:57   So you're not going to get your disk back bit-for-bit exactly how it was.

00:18:00   You're just going to get your data back."

00:18:02   CrashPlan reportedly backs up metadata better than Backblaze.

00:18:06   Backblaze drops almost all of it on the floor and just backs up your data.

00:18:10   CrashPlan does better.

00:18:11   is apparently 100%, like it'll get every single little bit

00:18:14   'cause that's, you know, it's the bespoke,

00:18:17   artisanal handcrafted backup program just for Mac users.

00:18:20   And a lot of people ask me how I feel about this

00:18:22   since I love all my metadata and everything.

00:18:23   Well, one of the reasons is I don't use labels and tags,

00:18:26   A, is because I know how they're implemented and it's gross,

00:18:28   but B, I fear how that stuff will,

00:18:33   if that stuff will survive.

00:18:34   So I wouldn't want to rely on it

00:18:36   and then have it get lost in some kind of backup thing.

00:18:39   And like we said before, online backup is absolutely the last resort.

00:18:43   So it being the lowest fidelity backup I have, SuperDuper being the highest

00:18:46   fidelity where it's pretty much exactly bit for bit the disk that I had.

00:18:52   Time machine kind of being in the middle and then backblaze being the lowest

00:18:56   fidelity.

00:18:56   I'm okay with that, right?

00:18:58   There's trade-offs.

00:18:59   You're paying $5 a month to store some obscene amount of memory on someone else's

00:19:03   server.

00:19:03   You know, I'm, I understand again, if that, if I find myself restoring from that so

00:19:09   So many things have gone wrong that I just accept that, you know, every little bit of

00:19:13   metadata won't be there.

00:19:14   But because of that, I also don't use the metadata for any, it's not an essential part

00:19:19   of my workflow for organizing my files.

00:19:20   Just because so many things, not just backup software, but so many things are not, won't

00:19:26   honor and copy that metadata.

00:19:27   Like the Apple's own CP commands and MV commands and stuff will for the most part honor it.

00:19:32   But lots of other tools, like even if you install the third party build of our sync

00:19:35   and haven't compiled it with the right options that might not bring your extended attributes

00:19:39   over unless you don't pass the right flags and stuff.

00:19:41   I just can't rely on myself to be careful to preserve that stuff, so I never put in

00:19:45   anything I really care about in metadata like that, which is sad because I wish it was pervasive

00:19:51   and supported everywhere, but the lowest common denominator, which is a mathematically incorrect

00:19:55   expression, but you all know what I mean, is so much lower than what it is on the Mac.

00:20:00   So the common set of metadata that you can be confident is going to survive everywhere

00:20:05   is higher than it has ever been, but still way lower than what macOS supports. So backup programs,

00:20:13   being on that lower end, I just accept as another sad reality, just like, file name extensions.

00:20:18   Sorry, Jon.

00:20:19   Someday we'll get there. Someday we'll find it, the rainbow connection.

00:20:23   That went right over my head.

00:20:26   I know I've heard it before. I think it's a Beatles lyric?

00:20:29   Have you — yeah, close, close, Margot. Have you shown Adam the Muppet Movie?

00:20:34   Oh, there we go. No.

00:20:37   Yeah, it's a little bit slow pace for kids because it's like a 70s movie and movies were slower back

00:20:42   then, but still got some good songs. You know what I loved? Charles Bronson was in like the

00:20:49   Great Muppet Caper or something like that. It was another Muppets movie. I forget what the official

00:20:54   title was, but I remember loving that as a kid and like many years ago I watched it with Aaron

00:21:00   and you know as an adult and I was like oh this movie is not that good.

00:21:03   The original NOM movie though is very sweet and has good songs in it and has good production

00:21:08   values and Kermit rides a bicycle so Marco can watch it and feel some kinship.

00:21:11   What kind of saddle does he use?

00:21:13   Yeah it's hard to tell.

00:21:14   Is he properly fit on his sit bones?

00:21:16   I don't know if frogs have sit bones.

00:21:18   I'm still not sure if people have sit bones.

00:21:20   Technically he's got someone's hand up his butt but through the magic of special effects

00:21:26   he's riding a bike.

00:21:27   It's pretty cool.

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00:23:23   All right, so let's talk about—a lot of people have written in with a lot of anger

00:23:32   about Backblaze's 30-day retention policy.

00:23:36   So this is something that I could not possibly care less about, but there's a lot of very

00:23:42   grumpy people about it.

00:23:43   So if I understand things right, Backblaze has said, if you have a, say, external hard

00:23:51   drive that is physically connected to your computer and thus qualifies for Backblaze

00:23:56   backups, if you don't plug it in every 30 days, then they will delete those backups.

00:24:03   So let's say, you know, I have an external hard drive that has a bunch of pictures on

00:24:08   it.

00:24:09   If I don't plug it in at least once a month, at the end of a month, if I haven't plugged

00:24:12   it in, Backblaze will delete all those files.

00:24:15   And there's a lot of people that are really, really grumpy about this that have written

00:24:18   us and are like, "Why aren't you talking about this?

00:24:20   How can you let this stand?

00:24:22   I just don't care.

00:24:24   I don't understand why people think it's acceptable

00:24:27   for Backblaze to hold onto this data in perpetuity

00:24:30   just because they're paying them $5 a month

00:24:34   or whatever it is.

00:24:34   - Crash Plan does it for $10 a month.

00:24:36   I mean, it all comes down to the business model.

00:24:38   - Oh, they did it.

00:24:39   - Backblaze, the corporate,

00:24:40   for $10 is the new plan that they are doing, right?

00:24:43   So Backblaze has been on Twitter talking to people

00:24:46   and they say like,

00:24:47   "Oh, we consider revisiting this policy, blah, blah, blah."

00:24:49   But yeah, it just comes down to the economics.

00:24:50   If this is a way for Backblaze to make it

00:24:54   so they don't lose money and cancel this plan,

00:24:56   because you can imagine just hooking up every hard drive

00:25:00   you have and pushing it up

00:25:01   and then just never reconnecting it.

00:25:02   I'd do it because I keep most of my hard drives unmounted.

00:25:05   And occasionally Backblaze yells at me

00:25:07   and tells me I haven't mounted one in a while.

00:25:08   I just mount it and it's fine.

00:25:09   Like it sends you a reminder.

00:25:10   You're not gonna not know that it's happening.

00:25:12   But if Backblaze wanted to like revisit this,

00:25:15   what they would have to do is say,

00:25:17   you can store as much as you want,

00:25:18   but now we're gonna have to charge you

00:25:19   on some sort of usage basis.

00:25:21   Maybe there's a flat fee up to a certain size,

00:25:23   but once you get beyond that,

00:25:24   you have to pay an additional X number of dollars

00:25:26   for a different, you know what I mean?

00:25:28   Like it doesn't have to be exactly a la carte,

00:25:29   you pay for every byte like S3.

00:25:31   It can still be the insurance model

00:25:33   where everybody pays the same amount

00:25:35   and most people do very little,

00:25:36   but a few people do a lot and it all evens out,

00:25:38   like that's their business model.

00:25:39   To support your ability to just hook up a hard drive,

00:25:42   two terabyte hard drive once,

00:25:44   let it back up over the course of the week

00:25:45   and then file it away in a shelf,

00:25:47   confident that those two terabytes will be there forever,

00:25:49   Backblaze will store those two terabytes for you no problem.

00:25:51   You just gotta give them enough money

00:25:52   to make it worth their while.

00:25:54   And how much more do you have to give it

00:25:55   than $5 a month?

00:25:56   I don't know, they can figure out how the math works.

00:25:58   But for all the people asking for that feature,

00:26:00   it's going to cost you more money.

00:26:02   And I think those people will be willing to cost more money.

00:26:03   So I think Backblaze should come up with a plan

00:26:06   that has slightly different policies,

00:26:08   that is priced slightly differently,

00:26:10   and for its extreme users, they would use that.

00:26:13   They would get more money out of the extreme users.

00:26:15   And I think they would just have happy customers overall, because most people don't care about

00:26:18   this, but the people who do, as we noted, are very worked up about it.

00:26:23   So Backblaze, you're leaving money on the table.

00:26:25   Go take some money from the people who want their stuff to be stored forever.

00:26:29   I think one of the main roots of that anger is like, you know, Backblaze advertises unlimited.

00:26:36   And unlimited in computers is never really unlimited.

00:26:40   There's always exceptions to that, because it's impossible to build a business on being

00:26:44   truly unlimited. It's easy to understand business models that don't claim to be unlimited and

00:26:53   just show you their pricing and their limits right up front. I think the people who are

00:26:57   angry about that are probably angry because they expect truly unlimited because that's

00:27:03   how it's advertised. This is an exception to that. I think you put it well, that's why

00:27:11   they're able to stay in business is because of limitations like that that are, I think,

00:27:15   pretty reasonable limitations.

00:27:16   Yeah, and like I said, it's not a secret. They're gonna pop dialogues in your faces.

00:27:19   I think they pop the first dialogues in like 10 days or 14 days like, "Hey, I haven't seen

00:27:23   this disc in 10 days. Perhaps you want to plug it back in." Like, they're not secretly

00:27:27   trying to delete all your data, but this is the way the economics work for $5. You can

00:27:32   really store as much as you want for $5, but you can't, like, briefly connect a hard drive

00:27:36   to your computer. Like, have your friends come and bring their hard drives. Hook them

00:27:40   to your computer, let them back up, and then take their hardware back to their house and

00:27:42   never visit it again. Now you have a permanent backup of their stuff just in case they lose

00:27:45   it. Like that's the model they're trying to avoid. People just, you know, using it as

00:27:50   a weigh station to drop off a couple terabytes, right? That's not sustainable for $5 a month

00:27:55   flat fee.

00:27:56   Yep. So a lot of other people have written in and said, "Hey, you know, I don't know

00:28:02   if you guys were aware, but you all have Synologies." And Synology does have a peer-to-peer backup

00:28:09   system, strategy, etc. Why don't you do that? And I will be the bad guy and say, I don't

00:28:16   want to share my space with you two jerks. And it's mine and I don't want to share. And

00:28:21   I would probably, if either of you asked me, be willing to offer up what I could. But last

00:28:30   I heard, Jon, you said last episode or the one before.

00:28:32   Jon Sorrentino There's no room in the end. I don't have

00:28:35   a square to spare. Insert your own reference here.

00:28:37   Yeah, exactly. So John doesn't have any excess space to offer, and thus if you don't have

00:28:46   any excess space, I won't have enough to offer you a backup. Marco and I maybe could set

00:28:51   this up, but I don't know. I feel like this is the sort of thing where I should be paying

00:28:57   a company to handle this for me, which is what I will probably end up doing. And I don't

00:29:05   feel comfortable asking even you guys, who I think would probably say, you know, all

00:29:09   things being equal, would probably say, "Yeah, sure, you can back up to mysology." I don't

00:29:13   feel comfortable talking to you guys about it, let alone, you know, anyone else I might

00:29:17   know. So I don't really view this as a reasonable option for me, but maybe I'm just being a

00:29:22   big baby.

00:29:23   Yeah, I don't, it's not a reasonable option for most people, and I wouldn't say yes, because

00:29:27   I don't want the responsibility of holding your data. Like, the whole point of cloud

00:29:30   backup is I want it to be far away from my house so if the house burns down it's

00:29:34   okay and I want it to be someplace where it's somebody's job to make sure my data

00:29:40   is actually there. A lot of people do this where they do a hard drive and back

00:29:44   it up and put it at a relative's house that is better than nothing I'm not

00:29:47   going to discourage you from doing that but in that situation and I've been in

00:29:50   many times what always happens is you forget to keep bringing the hard drive

00:29:55   back and forth because it's a pain and if it's network based like oh you don't

00:29:58   have to do that. It's all magic over the network. Is the person at the other end invested in

00:30:03   making sure that your backup continues to be successful and that the hard drive that's

00:30:08   doing it isn't filling up or doesn't have some bad sectors and stuff like that? It's

00:30:11   not their job. And they don't want to be responsible for that. And if something goes wrong, now

00:30:15   you're mad at a friend or a relative. And there have been products on Kickstarter and

00:30:19   stuff that try to do with strangers. Like, "We'll all share our data and it'll be a big

00:30:22   distributed P2P cloud. So far that hasn't worked out. It's a good idea. I think if space

00:30:28   was cheaper and bandwidth was more, it would work out. But right now I heartily recommend

00:30:33   sending your data to some company whose job it is to make sure your data is safe. It doesn't

00:30:37   mean the company is going to be perfect either. But A, if the company screws things up, you

00:30:41   can feel fine about being mad at the company. B, you can sue the company. Maybe, probably

00:30:45   not because of their user agreement. But anyway, you can get as mad as you want about them.

00:30:49   They have deep pockets, so if you want some sort of recourse, you can get it.

00:30:52   You would never want to be in this relationship with a relative or a friend where through

00:30:56   some fault that you will argue about, your offsite backup is corrupt or not there or

00:31:03   something goes wrong or whatever.

00:31:05   And then people being bitter about the hard drive space you're using, that they want to

00:31:08   reclaim that to put more of their ripped Blu-rays on.

00:31:11   It is not a relationship you want to be in.

00:31:15   I do not recommend this, even though there's lots of good software for it that makes it

00:31:18   easy. But like I said, all that said, if that's your only option, like if that's the only thing

00:31:24   you can do, whether it's carrying hard drives back and forth in a car or having your two

00:31:27   Synologies to talk to each other, it is better than nothing, but I really recommend making a

00:31:32   company do it. You know, I think I would almost feel, not even almost, I think I would probably

00:31:38   feel more comfortable saying to one of you guys, "I am shipping a Synology to your house,

00:31:44   a second Synology." I don't want to run your Synology. I don't want to run your hardware

00:31:48   in my house. It's hard enough for me to run my own stuff. My kid's gonna spill peanut

00:31:52   butter on it, my basement's gonna flood, the mice are gonna poop in it, it's just no.

00:31:57   I totally understand that, yeah. Yeah, I also don't want the responsibility. It's much less

00:32:03   about the physical having the hardware or having the space or the money required to

00:32:10   run and power it. It's more about I don't want you to depend on this box in my house

00:32:16   connected, you know, in my garage,

00:32:18   that's probably overheating itself slowly.

00:32:20   Like, I don't need the stress of that.

00:32:23   And I would hate to be in a position

00:32:27   where your stuff went bad and you were depending on me

00:32:30   and this thing being perfectly operating in my house

00:32:32   to fix that.

00:32:33   And talk about like, you know,

00:32:35   that's fine for the three of us.

00:32:37   Like, most people don't have friends

00:32:39   with giant NAS boxes in their garages or closements.

00:32:42   Like, this is not a generalizable solution.

00:32:45   It barely would even work for us.

00:32:48   And we have giant NAS boxes with giant hard drives

00:32:51   and fast internet connections, and we're all friends.

00:32:54   Most people don't have that kind of setup,

00:32:56   and even the ones like us who do

00:32:58   probably shouldn't do that if we have other options.

00:33:01   - I think it's safer to lend people money

00:33:03   than to store their backups.

00:33:05   (laughing)

00:33:06   Because if you give people money,

00:33:07   you can just say, "This is just a gift.

00:33:08   "You never have to pay me back.

00:33:09   "Here it is, we're friends."

00:33:10   Whereas the data, it's like,

00:33:12   "You're keeping this safe for me, right?"

00:33:14   Like it's easier to keep people's children safe than their data because you forget the

00:33:19   stupid hard drive is there, you forget if it's still running, you forget if things are

00:33:23   going bad, the person on the other end doesn't know that their thing is failing because you

00:33:27   have some -- it's just -- it's not -- you are not a data center.

00:33:30   You don't have a climate control thing with aisles and aisles of racked computers, you

00:33:35   know, like you just -- you don't have that.

00:33:37   You don't have redundant power backups.

00:33:39   You don't -- just you're not in the business of being a backup thing.

00:33:42   So it's just going to be sad all around because if something goes wrong, then what do you

00:33:47   do?

00:33:48   You just sit there and try not to blame each other, but then you do feel bad about it.

00:33:51   I feel like it's a much better feeling for you to back up stuff to back blaze and then

00:33:55   all your data goes corrupt on back blaze at the last moment.

00:33:57   Then you just be righteously mad at back blaze.

00:33:59   Being mad at cooperation is what Americans are best at.

00:34:01   We don't want to ruin your relationships.

00:34:03   Just I'm never flying Delta again.

00:34:05   Like you can do that all you want and be fine.

00:34:07   You don't want to sacrifice your personal relationships, but you'll keep you vibrant

00:34:11   and extend your life according to all the studies.

00:34:13   Yeah, it's funny you bring that up because the unfortunately named Pahishfood in the

00:34:18   chat said backing up each other's storage is like lending money. Don't do it with your

00:34:22   friends, do it with the business, and I agree with that.

00:34:24   Like I said, I think lending money is better because you can say it's better than backing

00:34:29   up because lending money you can lend it and say, "Oh, well, I'm pretending this is a loan,

00:34:33   but in my heart of hearts I'm realizing this is a gift," and just say, "I never expect

00:34:36   to see this money back and I'll be fine with it because it's a nice thing to do." There's

00:34:39   There's no ongoing relationship where you're like maintaining that money for the person

00:34:42   or anything.

00:34:43   It'd be more like if they gave you, instead of putting their money into savings, they

00:34:46   gave the money to you to invest, then that would be the kind of responsibility you're

00:34:50   getting for data.

00:34:51   It's like, and then they come back and say, "How's all that money I gave you?

00:34:54   How's that investment going?"

00:34:55   You're like, "Eh."

00:34:56   Yeah.

00:34:57   It's going okay.

00:34:58   And then they get mad at you.

00:34:59   "Why didn't you do a better job of investing my money?"

00:35:02   It's like, "Just why didn't you not make me do this?"

00:35:06   No.

00:35:07   No.

00:35:08   Yeah, and I mean, to be clear, I agree with you that lending money to a friend is maybe

00:35:14   not the best thing in the world, but it is way better than being a backup strategy.

00:35:19   So to hopefully come to the end of this, there's only a couple more things about backups.

00:35:23   Jon, tell me about Synology C2 backups.

00:35:26   This is still in beta, and it is apparently a Synology thing.

00:35:29   I think it's only in Germany too, so it's not really relevant to us, but Synology has

00:35:32   their own.

00:35:33   Everyone wants to riff on S3.

00:35:34   You got B2, and now you got C2.

00:35:36   we're running out of letters and number combos here.

00:35:39   Your Synology will do a backup of itself

00:35:42   to Synology's own cloud storage.

00:35:44   Are they just reselling S3?

00:35:45   I have no idea.

00:35:46   But anyway, if everyone wanted to know, that's a thing.

00:35:48   We'll put the link in the show notes

00:35:49   if you have a Synology and you're interested

00:35:50   in looking at the C2 beta,

00:35:51   especially if you live near Frankfurt, Germany

00:35:53   or wherever the hell this is, check it out.

00:35:55   - Yeah, it's expensive though.

00:35:59   - Maybe they are reselling S3.

00:36:01   It's 70 euros per terabyte per year.

00:36:06   So that's $83-ish, according to DuckDuckGo,

00:36:10   per terabyte, and if I have five,

00:36:12   that's $415 a year for me.

00:36:14   That is not inexpensive.

00:36:16   - Yeah, I think Backblaze B2 is still probably

00:36:19   the cheapest option I know of for actual pay-per-gig,

00:36:24   but otherwise, you know, unlimited in usage

00:36:26   as long as you pay for it kind of thing.

00:36:29   I don't know of anything cheaper than B2 yet, but I'm happy to hear suggestions.

00:36:33   Yeah.

00:36:34   Additionally, a friend of the show, Dan Morin, has written a post for Macworld, which is

00:36:39   apparently still a thing, saying why the Mac needs iCloud backup.

00:36:43   So why not, I guess, right?

00:36:46   I mean, iCloud is foolproof and definitely is a justifiable use, is backing up all of

00:36:51   your data that you cannot possibly lose.

00:36:53   Why wouldn't that work?

00:36:54   It's backing up a lot of data.

00:36:55   A lot of iOS devices are backed up.

00:36:57   It's not like that only Apple knows for sure how many of them. I mean you get some amount

00:37:01   of iCloud backup stuff. I forget. It's some obscenely small amount that you get free.

00:37:04   Five gigs? I think it's five gigs, yeah.

00:37:07   Right. But anyway, and you could pay for more. But the Mac just doesn't have that. And this

00:37:11   is just one of those cases where the Mac doesn't have a feature that iOS has had for years

00:37:14   and years. And a lot of people asked about like when is Apple going to do iCloud backup

00:37:19   for the Mac. It seems inevitable if they eventually get around to it because they already do iCloud

00:37:23   backups. It's not a new business. They would do the same model of giving you a useless

00:37:27   amount of storage for free and then you pay for more and I bet people would use it because

00:37:32   why shouldn't Apple be in the cloud backup business for all of its devices? It's basically

00:37:36   in the cloud backup business for all of its devices minus a rounding error which we call

00:37:41   the Mac these days. So I hope Apple does do that because I mean first of all what choice

00:37:45   do we have for cloud backups on the phone? It's not like we can use Backblazer Crashplant

00:37:48   on our phone. We all do iCloud backups even if we also do iTunes backups and for the most

00:37:54   part it seems to sort of work and it's certainly better than nothing. So Apple should do that

00:37:58   eventually.

00:37:59   And also just like, you know, you can make jokes about like how bad Apple services have

00:38:04   been so far in the past and everything like that, but I think iCloud backup is pretty

00:38:08   solid. Like, and most of their recent services are pretty solid. You know, some of their

00:38:13   intelligence based things like Siri and things like that could use some work, but like the

00:38:19   stuff that's about just like storing your data responsibly and syncing it and everything,

00:38:23   stuff has been pretty solid for a while now. So I am totally fine with the idea of Apple

00:38:30   offering this. And it's one of those things, it's similar to, like when they launched Time

00:38:34   Machine, there was a lot of criticism about various limitations or requirements Time Machine

00:38:41   had, but like the one thing you can always say in defense of moves like this is, "Well,

00:38:45   it's better than people who use nothing at all." Like it's better than nothing, right?

00:38:50   And so with iOS devices backing up to iCloud,

00:38:53   like, you know, that's another situation where like,

00:38:56   it's better than not having,

00:38:57   even the five gigs they give you is better than nothing.

00:39:00   It'd be nice to have more by default

00:39:02   because it would be nice to have a reasonable amount

00:39:05   for all iPhones sold that just came

00:39:07   with the price of the iPhone.

00:39:09   I think that would be a wonderful thing for Apple to do.

00:39:11   I'm not holding my breath on that,

00:39:13   but I wish they would do things like that.

00:39:15   But, 'cause you know, having any backup

00:39:17   is better than having no backup.

00:39:19   And this would be the kind of thing where like,

00:39:21   yeah, not every Mac owner would or should

00:39:24   use an iCloud backup service if it were offered on the Mac,

00:39:27   but it would be a really easy, fast way

00:39:30   to get lots of Mac users to have a backup

00:39:33   who otherwise would have had nothing at all.

00:39:35   And that's good that you want that.

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00:41:09   (upbeat music)

00:41:12   - All right, so that's the end of the follow up

00:41:14   and we should move on to Ask ATP.

00:41:17   - I don't know, no.

00:41:18   - What do you mean no?

00:41:19   - One more item, quickie for you.

00:41:21   - Oh no, there's nothing else.

00:41:23   - I believe there is.

00:41:24   - So Casey, I heard that you might've had a keyboard flaw

00:41:29   on your new MacBook Adorable that has this wonderful keyboard

00:41:34   that everyone loves so much that definitely

00:41:36   doesn't have constant flaws for almost everybody.

00:41:38   No, no, no, that's fake news.

00:41:39   Oh, oh, okay.

00:41:40   Just wanted to make sure.

00:41:42   Yeah, so my beloved MacBook Adorable apparently got an infinitesimally small piece of dust

00:41:48   under the numeral four key.

00:41:51   And because of that, it was mushy for days until I finally had the time to go to Target

00:41:59   and buy myself compressed air, which is something I haven't bought in probably five, maybe ten

00:42:04   years.

00:42:05   And then take the compressed air to my MacBook and blow out the infinitesimally small piece

00:42:11   of dust.

00:42:12   And then subsequent to that, it took me a few hours to realize I had not really removed

00:42:17   the dust but simply relocated it to under the caps lock key, which I don't generally

00:42:23   use, but I happened to use a few hours later and was like, "Oh, well that's mushy and

00:42:27   gross.

00:42:28   I guess I know where that dust went."

00:42:30   And then I had to take the compressed air again to the caps lock key in order to blow

00:42:34   it out again.

00:42:35   And now I think my keyboard is fully functioning once more.

00:42:38   But yeah, very frustrating, because the difference between the regularly functioning keys and

00:42:45   a key that has just an iota of dust under it is night and day.

00:42:52   It is disgusting to use a key that has dust under it because it feels mushy and gross

00:42:56   and terrible.

00:42:57   So I still love my MacBook Adorable.

00:43:00   I still do recommend it, especially as like an accessory Mac.

00:43:03   But the tolerance for dust and debris on this thing is approaching zero, which is really

00:43:11   unfortunate.

00:43:12   It's like the opposite of that Panasonic Toughbook.

00:43:14   Remember that?

00:43:15   Oh, yeah, I do.

00:43:16   Oh, yeah, I do.

00:43:17   The yellow laptop.

00:43:18   Yeah, the laptop meant to work in all sorts of environments.

00:43:21   Maybe you should get one of those glass boxes with the little holes with the gloves in them

00:43:24   that the scientists use when they're working with hazardous materials.

00:43:27   Just put the MacBook Adorable inside the box, and when you want to use it, just put your

00:43:30   hands into those gloves.

00:43:32   I hear you.

00:43:33   - Oh yeah, so that was sad times.

00:43:34   - I'm about to get one of these at work, by the way.

00:43:36   I'm about to get a 2017 MacBook Pro at work.

00:43:40   I'll let you know if and when my key,

00:43:41   I think my keyboard will be fine

00:43:42   because I plan to never touch it.

00:43:44   I plan to keep the thing closed

00:43:45   and use it hooked up to a monitor

00:43:46   and just use it as like a three times more powerful version

00:43:50   of my Mac Pro that I have at work now.

00:43:52   Hooked up to the very same monitor, mouse and keyboard.

00:43:54   But we'll see.

00:43:56   - You say that, but as Marco and I were just recounting

00:43:58   an episode or two ago, clamshell mode is the worst.

00:44:02   I'll leave it cracked, but the point is,

00:44:04   I'm gonna not use that keyboard if I can help it.

00:44:07   - Yeah, I mean, it's-- - I mean, the thing is,

00:44:09   like, and I, I'm obviously always tempted

00:44:12   to launch another rant about how this keyboard is awful

00:44:15   to be on all the computers, but it makes some sense

00:44:19   for this awful keyboard to be on that computer.

00:44:22   The one you have, Casey, not the one John's getting

00:44:24   and the one that I have, but it makes sense.

00:44:27   The MacBook Adorable One 12 inch, whatever we're calling it,

00:44:30   is super, super small and thin at all other costs.

00:44:34   That is what that computer is for.

00:44:36   So I honestly can't complain that much

00:44:39   that they put this incredibly controversial,

00:44:43   unreliable keyboard in that model.

00:44:45   - Well, you can complain about the reliability.

00:44:47   Like, it's fine to make it super slim

00:44:49   and compromise and everything,

00:44:50   but reliability, no matter what you do,

00:44:52   that should be the one thing,

00:44:53   like, the job of the keyboard is when you press the key,

00:44:55   it makes a letter on your screen, right?

00:44:56   So it can't, we shouldn't be accepting

00:45:00   this big of a downgrade in expected reliability.

00:45:02   'Cause every keyboard goes bad eventually.

00:45:04   I've broken a bunch of the flat aluminum ones,

00:45:06   but they last for years before something goes wrong.

00:45:09   And I mean, it could be whatever the thing is,

00:45:12   not confirmation bias, but where you're hyper aware

00:45:16   of people telling you tales of woe about their keyboards.

00:45:18   But boy, we've heard a lot of them

00:45:19   from people who have this keyboard.

00:45:21   And it just seems like a big change in reliability,

00:45:25   in keyboard reliability.

00:45:28   All laptop keyboards are gonna go crappy eventually,

00:45:31   probably, but within the first several months

00:45:34   to have a key stop working to the point where it affects,

00:45:36   it's not like, oh, it feels weird when I type,

00:45:38   like to the point where it doesn't make the letter

00:45:40   on the screen, that's just not acceptable,

00:45:42   even for the slim one.

00:45:44   - That's true, yeah.

00:45:45   Because it's like, again, it's like,

00:45:46   this is a problem that we didn't used to have.

00:45:49   And, or like, you know, if you had a laptop

00:45:52   that had a key break or die on it,

00:45:54   it was maybe after like five years,

00:45:56   or after you had abused it or dropped a whole bunch

00:45:58   of crap in it.

00:45:59   And so that's one thing, that's probably unavoidable.

00:46:03   But to have laptops where now this keyboard

00:46:06   is on the entire line of laptops,

00:46:08   and that entire line of laptops has significant

00:46:12   reliability problems with the primary interface method,

00:46:16   that is a big problem.

00:46:18   That is a massive design flaw that shouldn't have shipped

00:46:20   the first time, let alone the second and,

00:46:23   in the case of the 12 inch, third times.

00:46:25   So, I really, you know, there was,

00:46:28   remember that Reddit thread that was a couple months ago

00:46:30   that was allegedly from some manufacturing insider

00:46:33   that was spilling details about who knows what about Apple?

00:46:35   One of the things that said in there was that

00:46:38   there's gonna be a new key switch mechanism

00:46:39   for the 2018 MacBook Pro revision

00:46:42   that allegedly it's going to be similar

00:46:44   in thickness and travel,

00:46:46   but it's gonna be magnetic or something.

00:46:48   There's gonna be some kind of significant key switch change.

00:46:51   I hope that is, you know,

00:46:54   I hope something like that is going to happen.

00:46:56   I hope Apple sees the way we do that, you know,

00:46:59   we can't convince them to make this keyboard thicker

00:47:01   to make it feel better.

00:47:02   That's never gonna happen.

00:47:03   So I'll take what we can get.

00:47:04   Let's just make this, if we're gonna have this super thin

00:47:07   keyboard that sacrifices the key travel

00:47:10   for Johnny Ive's ThinWorld, at least make it work reliably.

00:47:14   Like there is no way in 2017 and 2018

00:47:19   we should not have unreliable laptop keyboards

00:47:22   on brand new $2,000 and up laptops.

00:47:24   That is completely unacceptable and ridiculous

00:47:28   in this day and age.

00:47:30   - How to clean the keyboard of your MacBook or MacBook Pro.

00:47:33   If your MacBook 2015 and later,

00:47:34   or MacBook Pro 2016 and later has an unresponsive key

00:47:37   or a key that feels different than the other keys

00:47:39   when you press it, follow these steps

00:47:41   to clean the keyboard with compressed air.

00:47:43   Number one, hold your Mac notebook at a 75 degree angle

00:47:47   so it's not quite vertical.

00:47:48   That's 75 kids, not 80, not 70.

00:47:50   We covered this exact article on this show.

00:47:53   You were there.

00:47:54   It's so preposterous.

00:47:55   I cannot believe that this is a thing.

00:47:56   Number two, use compressed air to spray the keyboard or just the affected keys in a left-to-right

00:48:01   motion.

00:48:02   Number three, rotate your Mac notebook so it's right side and so it's right side.

00:48:08   That's not even a full sentence.

00:48:10   Rotate your Mac keyboard so it's right.

00:48:11   Oh, to its right side.

00:48:12   I can't read.

00:48:13   My apologies.

00:48:14   To its right side and spray the keyboard again.

00:48:15   Apple can't make keyboards.

00:48:16   It's fine.

00:48:17   And spray the keyboard again from left to right.

00:48:19   Number four, repeat the action this time with your Mac notebook rotated to its left side.

00:48:23   This is asinine that this is a thing.

00:48:25   Now to be fair, my keyboard still worked, it just felt like garbage.

00:48:30   But - or one key felt like garbage.

00:48:32   And by and large, I actually do still very much like this keyboard.

00:48:35   I know Marco you don't, and that's fine, but in general, when it's working, I really like

00:48:40   this keyboard.

00:48:41   Similarly, when my car's valvetrain hasn't exploded, it's a very nice car.

00:48:45   But yeah, it's just frustrating.

00:48:47   It's very frustrating that I've had this computer for two and change months and I'm already

00:48:53   having to take restorative action to get the keyboard to work again.

00:48:58   - Right, and again, I've resigned myself to this new thin key switch thing that feels

00:49:04   to me crappy, but I've resigned myself to that.

00:49:09   I've been constantly reducing my expectations.

00:49:11   Fine, I'll carry a dongle bag.

00:49:14   Fine, I'll pay a little bit more.

00:49:16   "Fine, I'll have this touch bar on the big ones

00:49:18   "that I really don't like."

00:49:20   At least make it reliable.

00:49:22   Like, just make it work reliably.

00:49:24   If you're gonna make me swallow

00:49:26   all of these other jagged, bitter pills,

00:49:28   at least make the thing reliable.

00:49:30   That's all, like, I'm not asking for much here.

00:49:33   I've reduced my expectations and given up

00:49:35   on every other battle on these laptops.

00:49:37   Just give me that. (laughs)

00:49:39   - Lana Smore said.

00:49:41   - Yeah, jagged little pill, though, thank you very much.

00:49:43   - I know, I'm just saying, like,

00:49:44   I think that's Marco's brain farting out some references without his knowledge.

00:49:49   I know. No, honestly, not only is that a great album, but I was arguing with Tiff about this

00:49:54   a few days ago. I would say that is possibly one of the most influential albums of the

00:50:00   90s.

00:50:01   You 90s kids. Who cares?

00:50:03   Oh, wow.

00:50:04   Oh, wow.

00:50:05   You've got to wait 20 years before you can be nostalgic like we are about the 80s.

00:50:10   You know, there are times, Jon-

00:50:11   That's right, not 10 more years, but actually 20. It's not a linear scale.

00:50:15   So you are, what are you, like six or seven years older than we are? And usually that

00:50:21   feels like six or seven minutes, but then there are times that it feels like six or

00:50:25   seven decades, and this is one of those times.

00:50:28   It's when you listen to Margo and Tiff talk about it, and you for that matter talk with

00:50:32   nostalgia about 90s music and just it's just like, "What?"

00:50:37   It was more than 20 years ago for most of it.

00:50:38   I know, I know, it just seems weird.

00:50:41   Did it all come out in like '95, '96, something like that?

00:50:44   I mean, maybe, I'm assuming people from the '70s feel the same way with people in this

00:50:47   algebra '80s music, because, you know, it's all the '70s was good music and '80s was all

00:50:50   this crap, but you know, whatever, it's what age you are, I understand how it works.

00:50:54   Just Alanis Morissette, influential album.

00:50:57   '95, alright.

00:50:58   Geez, alright.

00:50:59   That should be a top four, top four albums in the '90s.

00:51:03   I knew her when she was on, you can't do that on television, you didn't know her then.

00:51:07   I sure did. I loved that show.

00:51:09   That was a great show. Don't even start with me.

00:51:11   Were you watching reruns?

00:51:13   Oh, you are such a turd.

00:51:15   Alright, let's just move on.

00:51:17   Let's just move on. Alright, Ask ATP. Can we slime John somehow?

00:51:21   Oh, I would love to. Oh my god, we should kickstart sliming John and give the money

00:51:25   to Houston or something like that.

00:51:28   Oh, my word. Somebody get on that. Anyway, Joe Lyon writes in to Ask ATP.

00:51:32   This is a little bit long, so I remember seeing this, but it must have been an email or something.

00:51:36   What is the long game in photo storage?

00:51:40   Not just which cloud service do I use for the next five years, but how will photos be

00:51:44   managed, stored, and handed down between generations?

00:51:46   We take more pictures than ever, but then we lock them all into personal devices and

00:51:49   accounts and print very few of them.

00:51:52   I think our family histories are actually at more danger than previously, ironically.

00:51:56   Hundreds of thousands of pictures from a family can be lost when someone dies and doesn't

00:51:59   leave behind a password, or a cloud service goes belly up and local backups weren't made,

00:52:04   photos or hard disks crash or data isn't carried to new devices.

00:52:08   Coincidentally, I was thinking about this recently because I have really been wondering

00:52:16   like if I were to suddenly pass away, what would happen to the things that I care about,

00:52:22   like our pictures?

00:52:23   And because of that, that's yet another reason why I recommend the 1Password family plan because

00:52:29   you know, Erin has my password via 1Password. She has my password for like Google Photos, for example.

00:52:36   But, you know, Joe Lyon's point is exactly right. Like, it used to be that you would print all these

00:52:41   pictures and create albums, and granted there would be far fewer pictures than you would have

00:52:45   in this digital age, but at least there was something you can physically give to somebody else.

00:52:50   What does the future bring? And I'll start with the semi-pro photographer. Marco, what do you think

00:52:55   think about this?

00:52:56   - I'm barely even mad anymore, but it's a bigger question of lots of things regarding

00:53:04   your data integrity and everything else.

00:53:07   It goes way beyond just photos, but lots of your other data as well.

00:53:11   But I mean, largely, once I'm gone, I won't care.

00:53:16   I won't be able to care.

00:53:17   So it's largely not my problem with my particular stuff, but I think it relies--

00:53:22   - There's the Nihilus Guide to Photo Backup by Mark De Laarman.

00:53:25   (laughing)

00:53:26   - But like, you know, I think it relies on your family

00:53:31   and people who come after you.

00:53:33   It relies on them caring.

00:53:35   Just like preservation of anything

00:53:36   from previous generations.

00:53:37   Like, if they care, you know, it basically, you know,

00:53:41   we as the people who have this data now,

00:53:44   I think we do have some responsibility

00:53:46   to have some kind of recovery, you know,

00:53:49   that our heirs will have access to after we're gone.

00:53:52   So you know, things like making sure that our family has access to passwords and data

00:53:55   and stuff like that.

00:53:57   But beyond that, like, it's up to the next generations to care.

00:54:01   And it always has been.

00:54:02   Like every family, you know, like, you know, you only know what your relatives have been

00:54:08   able to pass on to you.

00:54:09   You only have what they've carried with them and what they still have in their possessions

00:54:13   from previous generations.

00:54:16   And the same thing is going to apply to this.

00:54:19   Like in some ways it is easier than ever to keep this stuff.

00:54:23   And especially as time goes on, like my entire photo collection from the first year I was

00:54:29   taking photos with the digital camera, which was like 2004, I think, or no 2000 really.

00:54:35   But my entire photo collection from that year is like a few hundred megs.

00:54:40   Like it's at most like it's nothing compared to like, and as time goes on, every year that

00:54:45   goes by, hard drives get bigger, and cameras get better, and photos get bigger, and so

00:54:50   it seems like everything's always really big, but like, what was taken in the past, with

00:54:54   low resolution cameras, lower resolution sensors, like less data being captured, less video,

00:55:00   more stills, like, I don't know, I feel like it's not that hard if you care, and if your

00:55:05   heirs and relatives care, it isn't that hard to keep stuff, and to pass it down, it's just

00:55:11   an issue of will the people who inherit your things actually care to keep them? And that's

00:55:18   always been a problem.

00:55:19   - And photos don't get bigger all the time. Like you said, photos get bigger every year

00:55:23   and cameras get better. But we are probably already very close to limits of human visual

00:55:29   acuity on the highest end cameras and we're just waiting for that to trickle down. Once

00:55:32   your phone is taking 42 megapixel images, do you think in 10 years they're gonna be

00:55:38   taking 84 megapixel images they will not like there what are we gonna do blow it

00:55:42   up to a poster the size of a football stadium like there we are close to the

00:55:46   limits and if storage continues to increase at any rate while the size of

00:55:52   photos stays more or less the same maybe even get smaller if we have better

00:55:54   compression tech this is the storage of photos is a problem that will solve

00:56:00   itself essentially as storage size increases so just in the same way it's

00:56:05   easy for Marco to take his 100 megs of photos from 2000, in 50 years, it will be much easier

00:56:11   to take our "massive" photo libraries and put them in the storage of the day. And 50

00:56:18   years, they will not be taking 10,000 megapixel photos. They'll probably be like 50 to 100

00:56:24   megapixel photos, if even that, probably not even that. It's going to stop because there's

00:56:29   no point in more pixels. Like again, you're not blowing it up to a poster that covers

00:56:33   your entire house. So that little, that part of the problem will take care of itself. I

00:56:38   have some faith in that. Kind of like music did. Like music files, like, you know, even

00:56:43   if they go to flack, that's it. Like limits of human acuity, bit depth, bit rate, all

00:56:48   things we talk about. Take the biggest audio file you could have. Is there a benefit to

00:56:52   making something a hundred times bigger? No, there isn't. Because we can't hear anything

00:56:56   better than that. That's it. The audio will never get bigger than that, you know, and

00:57:01   multi-channel and so on and so forth.

00:57:02   So I'm optimistic about that.

00:57:05   And it's a thing to remember about trends like this,

00:57:07   where it's like, oh, we're just, it's never, you know,

00:57:09   it's just gonna continue on and on.

00:57:10   Some of the lines in the graph level off,

00:57:12   and that is a saving grace.

00:57:14   - Yeah.

00:57:15   - And the thing I would add though,

00:57:16   this is just a backup problem like anything else.

00:57:18   Aside from the social things of like, oh, passing it on

00:57:20   and having, you know, sharing your passwords,

00:57:22   that you should definitely do that.

00:57:23   But like any other backup problem,

00:57:25   it's all about diversity, right?

00:57:26   So print some pictures, first of all,

00:57:28   because that is a diversified backup strategy.

00:57:31   Physical things versus digital things.

00:57:34   The physical things are worse,

00:57:34   they deteriorate, that you can lose them,

00:57:37   they take up space, so on and so forth.

00:57:39   But it's an important diversification to reach out.

00:57:41   You print some books from Apple's Photos app,

00:57:43   go to Shutterfly or whatever,

00:57:45   print some pictures from one of our sponsors

00:57:48   of this episode, right?

00:57:49   That is a diversification.

00:57:51   That's also, as Marco will surely say in the ad read,

00:57:53   not just diversification of backup,

00:57:56   but it lets you look at your pictures.

00:57:58   Like, you know, we all have so many pictures,

00:58:00   but if they're in a digital thing,

00:58:01   like how often do you even look at them?

00:58:03   I think I spent more time looking at the pictures

00:58:05   on my phone in the new Uncharted game

00:58:07   than I do looking at the pictures on my actual phone.

00:58:09   So printing them and hanging them on your wall

00:58:11   lets you enjoy them for the time you're alive

00:58:12   before you don't care like Margo when he's dead.

00:58:15   (laughing)

00:58:17   And diversification of backup means also,

00:58:19   perhaps winnowing your collection down

00:58:22   to some really good pictures

00:58:23   and sharing them with your relative.

00:58:24   This is a case where you're not doing it for a backup,

00:58:26   but you just want to give other people your photos.

00:58:28   And I think we're in a much better situation

00:58:30   than we were in the past because it's harder,

00:58:32   I think, for the shoe box full of photos or photo albums

00:58:35   to transfer from the elderly relative who's died

00:58:38   to the rest of the family because people don't want,

00:58:39   here's like 50 pounds of photo albums,

00:58:42   or even just a shoe box.

00:58:43   Like people don't want that junk,

00:58:44   like especially when you're trying to clear out

00:58:45   all the belongings and everything like that,

00:58:47   and you're trying to save the few precious things

00:58:49   like one or two wedding photos.

00:58:51   Them being digital and us having a fighting chance,

00:58:54   least, of losslessly carrying them across generations is merely a matter of making

00:58:59   that process easy enough to do.

00:59:00   And I think as we all die and the people who grew up in the sort of the cusp of the

00:59:06   digital age die off, the process of figuring out how to get our crap to continue on

00:59:10   will be worked out in a generation or two.

00:59:13   And so I have a lot of confidence that a sort of permanent growing archive of things

00:59:18   associated with the family will be passed on from generation to generation again,

00:59:22   because storage sizes will keep going up, not forever,

00:59:24   but they'll keep going up long after the size

00:59:27   of the things we're doing go up.

00:59:28   And by the way, I also think there's a limit

00:59:29   on number of photos we'll take too,

00:59:31   because I mean, I guess you could just switch

00:59:33   to constantly recorded video,

00:59:34   but there's some social parts that I think

00:59:36   won't make it happen.

00:59:37   But we take so many more pictures now than we used to,

00:59:39   especially that we have kids, but in 300 years,

00:59:43   we're not gonna be taking a thousand times more photos.

00:59:45   Like you just can't do that.

00:59:46   We'll be taking a photo every half a second

00:59:47   for our entire lives, 24 hours a day.

00:59:49   That's just video.

00:59:50   and I don't think we were gonna record

00:59:51   every second of our lives.

00:59:52   So I am much more optimistic than Joe Lyon about this,

00:59:55   but I would recommend people think about the password

00:59:57   sharing thing like Casey said,

00:59:59   diversify your photo backups,

01:00:01   and maybe get a couple of them and print them

01:00:03   and hang them on your wall

01:00:04   so you can look at them while you're still alive.

01:00:06   - Brad Ringel asks, it's been discussed a bit,

01:00:09   but can you give a brief rundown of how you decided

01:00:12   on a camera to buy and suggestions for a beginner?

01:00:14   I will start and say that what I had done

01:00:19   was look around at my friends and try to figure out

01:00:22   what was something that felt kind of entry level

01:00:26   and approachable with,

01:00:28   and also was reasonably easy to carry physically

01:00:32   because it wasn't the size of a DSLR.

01:00:33   And so I have an Olympus OM-D E-M10.

01:00:37   I'll put a link in the show notes to a couple of,

01:00:39   actually two or three year old review now of that camera.

01:00:42   It's the one I still use.

01:00:43   This is a Micro Four Thirds camera

01:00:47   and it has interchangeable lenses.

01:00:49   And so I spent a fair bit of money on,

01:00:52   well, what I thought was a fair bit of money

01:00:53   on both the body and one really nice prime lens.

01:00:56   That prime lens lasted me for the first couple of years

01:00:59   I had the camera.

01:01:00   And then about a year ago, I added a zoom lens.

01:01:03   I chose this because Sean Blanc,

01:01:06   Blanc, Blanc, I forget how you pronounce her name.

01:01:08   Thank you.

01:01:10   Sean Blanc had recommended it very, very strongly.

01:01:13   And I love this camera.

01:01:15   By no means is it the best camera in the entire world, but I love it and it is done right

01:01:21   by me and helped me get better as a photographer because it allows, and not to say it's unique

01:01:27   to this camera by any stretch, but this one is very good because it allows interchangeable

01:01:31   lenses and it allows me to do things like shoot an aperture priority, which is to say

01:01:36   I can concentrate on getting one thing right and the rest of it will just automatically

01:01:39   happen.

01:01:40   Again, I'm not saying that's unique to this camera, but that's kind of how I got started,

01:01:44   that's generally speaking how I still shoot today. And suggestions for a beginner, you

01:01:49   know, everyone says this, and I remember Marco, you and you and me and Aaron and Tif were

01:01:53   sitting in some restaurant in New York forever ago, and we were talking about cameras. And

01:01:58   I remember you and Tif saying to me, there are two rules to being a good photographer.

01:02:03   Number one, never use the flash. And number two, take a bazillion pictures, because if

01:02:08   If you take a bazillion pictures, at least one of them will be okay.

01:02:12   And I really think, as cliche and as silly and as frustrating as that may sound to a

01:02:18   beginner, that really, really is the case.

01:02:21   I would recommend getting enough of a camera that you feel like you've got something interesting

01:02:27   and special.

01:02:28   And that doesn't have to be very expensive by any means, but enough that maybe you can

01:02:31   get a little Boca Boca, however you pronounce it.

01:02:35   But other than that, just try to avoid the flash and take a lot of pictures.

01:02:40   And I think that's sufficient.

01:02:41   So Jon, let's go to you next.

01:02:43   What do you recommend?

01:02:44   I basically bought the camera Marko told me to.

01:02:46   It's a good strategy for many things in life.

01:02:50   But the caveat though, I did, he also told me about lens rentals.

01:02:54   And so before I bought it, I'm pretty sure you guys may remember that.

01:02:58   Didn't I rent that camera first before I decided to plunk down the money for it?

01:03:01   I believe you did.

01:03:02   It was either that one or its predecessor.

01:03:04   And I did the same, by the way.

01:03:05   Yeah, no, it was a 63. And I remember when Marco recommended it, I wasn't that keen on it,

01:03:10   because I wanted, like, I basically wanted a fancier camera, but then I used Marco's

01:03:14   A7R II or whatever it used to have, and it just seemed too big. And so then I'm like,

01:03:18   "Ah, maybe he was right, the small one." So I rented it and liked it and bought it. And I

01:03:22   didn't, honestly, I didn't shop around that too much, because that's a service both Wirecutter

01:03:25   and Marco provide. If you don't want to spend a year researching stuff, I did actually spend a

01:03:30   very long time researching Super Zooms, because I had experience with a couple of them, and I'm

01:03:33   I'm like, let me just find the successor to my family camera and I get my super zoom and I could never find one that

01:03:38   Seemed like it was a win over what I was doing. So yeah, so ask friends who know stuff about cameras and

01:03:44   Before you plunk down a large amount of money. It seems large as someone who doesn't buy fancy cameras

01:03:51   Consider something like lens rentals where it seems like oh my god

01:03:54   How much am I paying to rent this but it's cheaper than buying the camera and realizing you don't want it and having to you

01:03:59   Know find a way to sell it at a loss and everything. So

01:04:03   That that that I think that works man. And yeah, honestly the agent internet, you know, if you don't know Marco personally

01:04:09   There is the the wire cutter. There is DP review

01:04:12   You can find the information out there and then just come up with a couple candidates

01:04:16   Borrow or rent them to see which one you like and and then go for it. I agree with Casey

01:04:22   Go like kind of like a Mac storage go a little bit more than you think like save money for an extra six months if you

01:04:29   have to because you will never regret getting a slightly nicer camera. You may regret getting

01:04:33   a slightly bigger camera, so that's why I say use it and see if you feel like, "Does

01:04:37   this camera fit into my life?" But make it something special, especially in the age of

01:04:42   our phone cameras are also good. If you're going to buy a camera camera that all does

01:04:46   is camera stuff, make it better enough than your phone camera that it's not close. And

01:04:52   that will make you excited to use your "good camera." Like, I do take a lot of pictures

01:04:57   with my phone, I take video with my phone.

01:04:59   But I really like my fancy, and not that fancy,

01:05:02   but my quote unquote real camera.

01:05:04   I really like that I use it a lot.

01:05:07   Not all the time, not every day,

01:05:08   but I like knowing that it's there.

01:05:10   And when I do use it, like I said,

01:05:11   2,000 pictures coming home from the ocean from one day,

01:05:14   that's a good time for me.

01:05:16   - Yeah, and I would just like to quickly double down

01:05:19   on what you said about lens rentals.

01:05:21   I've used lensrentals.com, they've never sponsored.

01:05:23   I rented the camera that I now have before we bought one and got a chance to play with

01:05:29   it for a few days.

01:05:30   And in fact, I rented it to take, well, I had my dad do it, but to take maternity shots

01:05:35   for Aaron before Declan was born.

01:05:39   And I got to spend some time with it.

01:05:41   Dad took these really beautiful pictures with it and he's not a photographer.

01:05:45   He just was able to take really good shots with a combination of this body and this lens.

01:05:49   And so I completely agree with Jon, and I think Marco was the one who originally recommended

01:05:54   it to me as well.

01:05:55   You know, take a spin with whatever camera you're looking at, and it cost me like 150

01:06:00   bucks or something like that to get the camera for a few days and the lens I wanted for a

01:06:03   few days, but it was worth its price in gold because it made me know that this like $1500

01:06:08   or $2000 expenditure I ended up spending was worth it.

01:06:12   So Marco, what would you say about this?

01:06:15   You know, what's a good set of tips for a beginner?

01:06:19   - You guys have actually covered it really well.

01:06:21   I don't have that much more to add.

01:06:23   You can be talking for 20 minutes now.

01:06:24   (laughing)

01:06:26   I mean, I know myself pretty well.

01:06:28   So, yeah, I mean, definitely renting before you buy

01:06:33   is very valuable, 'cause you spent the 150 bucks,

01:06:36   and go to lensrentals.com.

01:06:39   I think there are other sites,

01:06:40   but I've always used Lensrentals,

01:06:41   and I've had excellent experiences with them over the years

01:06:44   over a pretty long time, over lots of different rentals,

01:06:47   of lots of different things.

01:06:49   A few times I needed the customer service,

01:06:50   it was excellent every time,

01:06:53   and they're a pretty big operation and pretty reputable.

01:06:55   So highly recommend LensRentals.

01:06:56   You're right, they have never sponsored us.

01:06:58   I don't think they ever would sponsor us,

01:06:59   but now they don't need to

01:07:01   'cause we're giving this away for free.

01:07:02   (laughing)

01:07:04   So, 'cause not only did you learn what,

01:07:09   you basically got confirmation that what you wanted to buy

01:07:12   was probably a good idea,

01:07:14   but in some cases it can teach you

01:07:16   that you don't want to buy something.

01:07:18   Like if you rent it and you learn,

01:07:20   you know, actually this is too big,

01:07:21   or the handling doesn't work out for me, or whatever.

01:07:23   Like it's useful for that.

01:07:24   It's also useful for like,

01:07:26   if there's some really expensive piece of gear,

01:07:29   whether it's a camera or a lens,

01:07:30   usually more often, hence the name.

01:07:32   Something that you don't need very often.

01:07:35   Like there was a, like I was shooting the talk show live

01:07:39   at WBC two years ago,

01:07:41   and I shot it with a rented lens,

01:07:43   because I knew I would need a certain type of zoom lens

01:07:47   to do a really good job with it.

01:07:49   But it's a lens that I hardly ever need in my daily life

01:07:51   and it was very expensive to buy.

01:07:53   So I just rented it for the week

01:07:54   and it was way less money.

01:07:56   And I learned as I was renting it,

01:07:58   like wow, I'm so glad I don't own this lens

01:07:59   because it's giant and heavy

01:08:01   and I really don't want to have this most of the time.

01:08:04   I only very rarely need it.

01:08:06   So it's nice to actually consider the possibility

01:08:09   of renting things just as part of the way you operate

01:08:13   in the camera world because there is so much

01:08:16   incredibly specialized gear that you might need

01:08:20   twice or once and it's probably not worth buying it for that

01:08:24   but for those one or two times, it's really, really nice.

01:08:28   - Yeah, and that actually is a really great point as well

01:08:32   because after I'd had my camera for a couple of years,

01:08:35   I had my eye on a zoom lens and I forget the specifics

01:08:39   but I wanna say it was like a 100 to 300 millimeter zoom

01:08:41   which is something like double that in a DSLR, or maybe half that.

01:08:45   I forget how it all works out.

01:08:46   But it ended up that it was like a really, really, really strong zoom.

01:08:52   And so you had to be like, you know, 20, 30, 40 feet away from your subject before it was

01:08:58   even useful.

01:08:59   And then that's when it started to be useful.

01:09:01   And again, I'm making up the details here, but it was something along those lines.

01:09:04   And so I rented it for a week.

01:09:06   And actually, strictly speaking, Erin rented it for me for like a birthday present or something,

01:09:09   because she knew I was looking at it.

01:09:11   And it turns out it was a terrible lens.

01:09:14   And I was so thankful that Aaron had spent the money to rent it for me because I then

01:09:17   knew that it wasn't worth like $800 or whatever it cost to get that lens.

01:09:21   And the zoom lens I ended up with was quite a bit different.

01:09:25   And I knew that because I then rented that lens and spent some time with it and knew

01:09:29   that it was worth the money.

01:09:31   So yeah, I completely, completely doubled down, tripled down even on the lens rentals

01:09:35   idea.

01:09:36   I couldn't recommend it enough.

01:09:38   - Yeah, and to expand a little bit on what John said

01:09:41   about renting it or getting a handle on how it feels

01:09:46   and possibly regretting things like size and weight

01:09:51   down the road.

01:09:53   - Or battery life.

01:09:54   - Yes, or battery life.

01:09:57   I would say one of the best things you can do

01:09:59   if you're in the market for a camera

01:10:00   is to go to a store that has them in person

01:10:03   and to actually be able to look at them in person,

01:10:06   next to each other, do some basic research

01:10:09   before you get to the store, just so you know

01:10:11   roughly what models offer the kinds of things

01:10:13   that you're looking for, but actually pick them up

01:10:15   and see them in person, see them next to each other,

01:10:17   try to handle them, see certain ones.

01:10:20   Cameras these days have so many capabilities,

01:10:22   but they're also oftentimes very small.

01:10:25   And so ergonomics become a pretty big challenge

01:10:28   in a lot of them.

01:10:29   Usability of the various menus and controls

01:10:32   and dials and everything, these are all

01:10:34   pretty major factors that differ significantly

01:10:37   between different models.

01:10:38   And so anything you can do to get your hands on,

01:10:42   you know, it's the precursor to renting, basically.

01:10:44   Anything you can do to get your hands on them

01:10:46   and see them in person before you decide.

01:10:50   Because you can read a review,

01:10:53   or you can hear me say something about a certain model,

01:10:55   or you can go to the wire cutter,

01:10:57   and you can go to DP Review,

01:10:58   and you can spend hours and hours and hours,

01:10:59   I have, on these sites,

01:11:01   like when you're trying to make a decision

01:11:03   on what camera to buy for you or what's right for you.

01:11:06   That's good, you should do some of that,

01:11:11   but the model of trying to figure out

01:11:15   what is the one camera you should buy in this price range,

01:11:19   that really is not a great model for this

01:11:22   because different cameras will work for different people

01:11:25   and there really isn't one great model

01:11:29   that everyone should buy in each price range

01:11:31   or in each size category.

01:11:32   I was able to give John a decent recommendation for him

01:11:36   because I had more information about what he wanted

01:11:39   and he had used my medium-sized one.

01:11:42   And so there was more to go on.

01:11:45   But if you just go to some site that tries to pick like,

01:11:47   here's the one camera you should get in this category,

01:11:50   that might not be right for you.

01:11:51   So anything you can do to see them in person to use them,

01:11:54   whether it's going to a store or renting one

01:11:57   that you think you might wanna buy or both,

01:11:59   ideally you kinda narrow down as you go,

01:12:02   it's invaluable because really the cameras

01:12:05   that are out there, they are so different

01:12:07   in how they handle.

01:12:09   And a lot of times a camera that might not have

01:12:12   the best sensor or the best technical specs

01:12:15   in certain areas, a lot of times if it just handles better,

01:12:19   you will end up using it more or you will enjoy

01:12:21   using it more because of the physical differences

01:12:26   or the other differences that aren't just

01:12:28   the sensor quality.

01:12:30   And this is a lesson I've often not learned fully

01:12:32   when I've made certain decisions,

01:12:33   but I try to recover from that,

01:12:36   try to get better over time,

01:12:38   because it matters so, so much,

01:12:42   just how it handles, how it behaves,

01:12:44   how it performs in your hand,

01:12:46   in the mechanics of using it.

01:12:48   One of the ones that I have heard great things about,

01:12:52   and I have very little experience with them,

01:12:55   is the Fuji X line.

01:12:57   People love these things.

01:12:58   There was the X-T1, the X-T2, the X-100.

01:13:02   I haven't followed them too closely,

01:13:05   but these are cameras that,

01:13:07   they often don't perform top notch

01:13:09   in certain spec comparisons,

01:13:11   but people just love them because of their ergonomics

01:13:14   and their mechanics and things like that.

01:13:16   That's the kind of thing you want to look for.

01:13:18   Similarly, it's hard to understand the appeal

01:13:21   of Leica cameras, because Leicas are very, very expensive.

01:13:24   Like, eye-wateringly expensive.

01:13:27   and you think why would anybody buy that

01:13:29   when the sensor doesn't perform any better

01:13:31   than a Sony sensor or something like that.

01:13:33   And a couple of times I've had a chance

01:13:35   to actually handle a camera,

01:13:38   and there is a certain degree of like,

01:13:41   wow, this is just really nicely handling.

01:13:44   It's responsive, it feels good, I feel good using it.

01:13:48   There is some degree of that.

01:13:49   And so there are these other factors

01:13:52   when you're looking at the,

01:13:53   and by the way, this does not apply just to cameras,

01:13:56   But there are these other factors when you look at

01:13:58   a buying decision like this where you can do

01:14:01   as many spec comparisons as you want on paper

01:14:03   and on websites and everything,

01:14:05   but it's really hard to do a really,

01:14:07   it's really hard to know how much you're gonna actually

01:14:11   love using it until you actually get a chance to try it.

01:14:13   And that's, again, that's why we say,

01:14:16   go see these things in the store.

01:14:17   If you can, rent one.

01:14:19   Like, those are great options.

01:14:21   And for something like this that's so personal

01:14:23   and where not everyone has the same requirements.

01:14:27   That's pretty good.

01:14:28   And then finally to definitely, definitely echo

01:14:30   what Jon said, you want a camera that is going to be

01:14:35   a lot better than your phone.

01:14:37   If it isn't a lot better than your phone,

01:14:40   you should not buy it.

01:14:41   There is no reason for you to buy a camera

01:14:42   that's only a little better than your phone.

01:14:44   And phone cameras are really good

01:14:46   and they keep getting better at an alarming pace.

01:14:50   They keep getting remarkably better.

01:14:52   And so I would say, generally speaking,

01:14:56   I mean there are exceptions, it's hard to give a firm,

01:14:58   like a price floor here that's meaningful.

01:15:01   But I would say if you're spending less than probably

01:15:04   a thousand dollars, you're probably not getting

01:15:07   a quality jump that makes sense

01:15:10   in the world of today's smartphones.

01:15:12   Especially if you're listening to this show,

01:15:13   you're probably an iPhone user,

01:15:15   you're probably a user of a fairly recent iPhone,

01:15:17   and that's, yeah, that's gonna be hard to beat

01:15:21   with anything below $1,000 in a lot of situations.

01:15:24   Most of the recommendations that I give

01:15:27   are in the one to $3,000 range.

01:15:31   And that's a lot of money.

01:15:32   And you have to ask yourself, is that really worth it?

01:15:35   For a lot of people, it isn't.

01:15:36   Or you might go through all this and realize,

01:15:40   actually, I still take most of my pictures on my phone

01:15:42   because my phone's always with me

01:15:43   and the cameras keep getting better

01:15:45   and they offer more interesting features in a lot of cases,

01:15:48   like live photos and automatic HDR and stuff

01:15:52   that other cameras can do sometimes

01:15:55   or can do some of these things,

01:15:56   but they're clunky or don't work as well

01:15:57   or harder to use.

01:15:59   So it's like a standalone camera these days

01:16:02   has to be way better than your phone

01:16:05   to make it worth buying and to make sure

01:16:07   you'll actually use it on a regular basis.

01:16:10   So if you're not willing or able to spend

01:16:13   over $1,000, I would say, easily,

01:16:17   on a camera and a couple of lenses for it.

01:16:20   I would say it's probably not worth it.

01:16:22   You should probably just get the best phone you can

01:16:24   and use its camera.

01:16:25   - I'd agree with that.

01:16:27   Oplez writes, "Have any of you used or played

01:16:31   "the notoriety card in your day-to-day life

01:16:33   "to get something you wanted?"

01:16:34   And I will start with Jon.

01:16:36   - I put this question in here because I want to reemphasize

01:16:42   people exactly how little notoriety we have. Like maybe it seems like there is no card to play.

01:16:51   Even at WWDC where we are, that is the maximum of our fame and notoriety. We're there with

01:16:58   the highest percentage chance that people know who we are is like at WWDC. Even there, I have never

01:17:05   had a way to parlay my notoriety into pretty much anything except for perhaps giving me the

01:17:15   confidence to go up and talk to somebody who I might not otherwise, even though I don't have

01:17:19   any expectation they're going to know who I am, I guess that's my answer. I have never played the

01:17:25   notoriety card because there's no card to be played, but my impression of my own notoriety

01:17:30   in very specific circumstances where a specific kind of nerd gathers for a week, it has given

01:17:36   me the confidence to overcome what would normally be my inclination to never talk to another human

01:17:40   being, to go talk to somebody and introduce myself. Most people, you know, if you don't have

01:17:45   my personality, you don't need that extra boost of confidence. But I really want to emphasize

01:17:49   listeners, we have no notoriety. No one knows who we are. No one knows what a podcast is. Well,

01:17:53   maybe not with cereal they do. Podcast? What's that? You know, cereal? Oh, I think I heard of

01:17:57   Anyway, that's my answer.

01:17:59   - Marco?

01:18:00   - I don't think I have used it in a useful way

01:18:03   because of what John said.

01:18:04   It's like, if you actually would take that risk

01:18:09   and say, do you know who I am?

01:18:11   Like, chances are the answer you're gonna get back is nope.

01:18:14   (laughs)

01:18:15   And that's not a good risk to take,

01:18:18   even if you can get over the fact that,

01:18:20   best case scenario, they do know who you are,

01:18:23   and you've just been a huge jerk.

01:18:24   (laughs)

01:18:25   That's not my style, that's not how I interact with the world.

01:18:30   Even if I knew I could get away with it, I would still not try to do it because I don't want to do that.

01:18:39   But, Jon is correct, in reality there is almost nowhere where we could be,

01:18:44   where we could pull a card like that and have it actually work.

01:18:48   Like maybe, maybe at our own live show,

01:18:52   (laughing)

01:18:54   like in the room, seconds after we've walked off stage,

01:18:59   maybe then, but anywhere else that would not work at all.

01:19:04   And yeah, that's not, we don't have any degree

01:19:07   of actual fame in any context where this would even be

01:19:12   a possibility, let alone the fact that I think

01:19:15   none of the three of us have the personality type

01:19:17   to actually try to pull a card like that?

01:19:19   - Well, there was that one time where I wished

01:19:21   that it worked, where I forgot my wallet

01:19:22   and I couldn't pick up my hardware

01:19:23   and I had to drive all the way back home.

01:19:25   And it's not because I wanted any special treatments,

01:19:26   it's because I didn't want to drive all the way back home.

01:19:28   'Cause A, I felt dumb for leaving my wallet at home.

01:19:31   Like I couldn't pick up my thing at the Apple store.

01:19:32   I didn't actually do it.

01:19:34   I did jokingly offer,

01:19:36   well, just Google my name and my picture will come up.

01:19:39   And I was half joking, but I was kinda half serious.

01:19:43   Like you need to know who I am, who I am.

01:19:45   Type my name into a Google search box,

01:19:47   but just I had to drive all the way back home.

01:19:49   And that's, again, that's just me trying

01:19:51   to save myself commuting time

01:19:53   so I don't feel quite as dumb

01:19:54   for leaving home without my wallet.

01:19:56   But that is the one time.

01:19:57   And note that it's like,

01:19:59   I didn't say why they should Google my name

01:20:01   and why I might come up.

01:20:02   Of course I would never do that.

01:20:03   And they didn't know who I am and didn't care

01:20:05   and I had to get my freaking wallet.

01:20:07   - I think it is really, really gross

01:20:11   to try to be like, oh, don't you know who I am?

01:20:16   So let me tell you about the three times that I did it.

01:20:18   The first time was, the first time was,

01:20:22   I forget, I guess was, I don't remember what year it was,

01:20:26   but maybe it was 2016, I guess,

01:20:28   that I tried emailing a few people at Apple

01:20:31   and being like, "Hey, I don't have a WWDC ticket.

01:20:34   "Maybe I could do something about that?"

01:20:38   Didn't work.

01:20:39   The second time was when I was trying to get my current job,

01:20:42   and I don't know if it's really being like,

01:20:45   do you know who I am?" But I definitely mentioned that I had a popular Apple podcast on my resume.

01:20:48   And the reason I did that was because I was trying to switch careers from being a Microsoft developer

01:20:53   to being an Apple developer, and I was trying to figure out any justifiable reason to hire me at

01:21:01   that point and to take a risk on me. The final time is one that you two did not know about,

01:21:07   and I wasn't planning on telling you about. And I'm only going to talk about it very lightly,

01:21:13   because, I'm trying to think of how to describe this without giving it away.

01:21:18   It was offered to me because of the show. So it was not really a "do you know who I am?"

01:21:25   But it was offered to me because of the show, and because of a friend that listens to the show.

01:21:32   Would you like to get access to a car from the press fleet from a manufacturer that

01:21:43   none of us would normally have access to.

01:21:45   To which I said, yes, absolutely.

01:21:48   That car was supposed to arrive the week after WWDC,

01:21:52   and by happenstance, something happened,

01:21:54   and it didn't work out.

01:21:56   Then that car was supposed to arrive a few weeks later,

01:21:58   and when it was traveling from the press pool in DC down to me,

01:22:03   it caught a chip in the windshield,

01:22:05   and they had to turn around.

01:22:09   I haven't heard much since then, and it's been a month or two.

01:22:11   So I'm guessing that this didn't work out.

01:22:14   In a few months, like by the end of the year,

01:22:16   if I haven't had access to this press car,

01:22:18   I will concede maybe privately, maybe publicly what it was.

01:22:23   But on the slim chance that I actually do get a week

01:22:27   with this particular car,

01:22:29   which is a car that I would never generally have access to,

01:22:32   I don't want to spoil the surprise.

01:22:34   But that is somewhat sort of kind of me leveraging my,

01:22:39   do you know who I am?

01:22:40   Even though it was offered to me,

01:22:41   I did not request it.

01:22:42   And that is all I'm going to say.

01:22:44   - Is it some garbage car that we're gonna laugh at,

01:22:46   like the stupid Jeep Cherokee

01:22:48   with like a big engine in it or some crap?

01:22:51   - First of all, the Cherokee SRT8 is not stupid,

01:22:54   you big jerk. - It is stupid and gross.

01:22:55   (laughing)

01:22:58   - Second of all. - Anyway,

01:22:59   is it the type of car, and we know you're excited about it,

01:23:01   is it the type of car that we're gonna be excited about it,

01:23:03   or is it just the type of car where it's gonna be

01:23:04   like a KC car, like a Camaro ZL1?

01:23:07   Like, I guess I would kind of be excited about it.

01:23:08   I would not be excited about it.

01:23:09   - Why are you so mean to me, Jon?

01:23:11   I would not be excited about a Veyron.

01:23:12   I just want to put that out there,

01:23:13   'cause I think the Veyron is also stupid and gross.

01:23:16   - So I only have one question about the car,

01:23:18   and you know what it is.

01:23:19   - It is not a Tesla.

01:23:21   - That wasn't the question. - If that's what you're looking.

01:23:23   Oh, okay.

01:23:24   - What color is it?

01:23:25   - I don't know, but I would guess,

01:23:28   I would guess that it is red, and that is all I will say.

01:23:31   - Interesting.

01:23:33   - I'm interested in Ferraris.

01:23:34   - It is not a Ferrari.

01:23:35   - Unless it's the California.

01:23:36   I don't like that one.

01:23:37   And then the replacement for the California,

01:23:39   The replacement for the California is also gross.

01:23:41   What the hell is the California replacement, chat room?

01:23:43   - I love that you'd even be picky about like

01:23:45   which Ferrari you got to borrow for a week.

01:23:46   - Exactly. - It's totally true.

01:23:47   Like I've thought about that.

01:23:48   Like, but wouldn't you care?

01:23:49   Like, wouldn't you be excited by it?

01:23:50   And I'd be like, no, not that one.

01:23:52   - Sean, you're the worst.

01:23:53   - I don't like that one.

01:23:55   And the replacement has similarly got,

01:23:58   come on chat room.

01:23:59   What's the replacement for the California?

01:24:01   Portofino, there we go, thank you.

01:24:03   - You're the worst, Sean. - Portofino is a better name

01:24:06   and it does look nicer than the California,

01:24:07   but it's still, it's like the Ferrari that I don't want.

01:24:11   I'd rather have the weird four-wheel drive FF thing

01:24:14   and well, the replacement, you just said it,

01:24:16   the GT4 or Lusso and the pre-pre show that won't be there.

01:24:18   I'd rather have that than the Portofino or California.

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01:26:11   - All right, so 90 minutes in, you wanna start the show?

01:26:18   'Cause I think it's time.

01:26:20   - All of our topics are short today, so.

01:26:23   - Oh, really?

01:26:24   Okay, listeners, buckle up.

01:26:26   Let's talk about APFS.

01:26:28   - We are really good at short topics here on ATV.

01:26:31   Seriously.

01:26:32   Okay, so let's talk about this short topic, Jon.

01:26:34   The clock is ticking.

01:26:35   Tell me about APFS conversion in High Sierra.

01:26:38   This is a bit of news that was officially published by Apple this week, or very recently

01:26:42   anyway, between the show and last show.

01:26:44   They have an article, we'll link in the show, it's official Apple documentation, not about

01:26:48   like betas or whatever, but like, "Hey, when you upgrade to macOS High Sierra, systems

01:26:53   with all flash storage will be converted automatically to APFS."

01:26:57   So if you have a Mac and it has flash storage and you upgrade to the Mac OS High Sierra,

01:27:03   you are getting converted to APFS.

01:27:05   You cannot opt out of the transition to APFS.

01:27:08   This is right from their documentation.

01:27:09   So it's not like as in the betas, like, oh, you can convert or not convert and decide

01:27:14   later whatever.

01:27:15   If you upgrade to High Sierra and you have flash, you're going to get it.

01:27:17   Even if you have a third party flash drive, we have one listener write in to say, I have

01:27:20   a Mac that shipped with a spinning disk, but I replaced it with SSD upgrade to High Sierra,

01:27:25   automatic upgrade to APFS.

01:27:26   A lot of people installed one of the later High Sierra betas and didn't even realize

01:27:30   they had been converted to APFS because like how would you even tell because it doesn't

01:27:33   ask you anything about it, it just does it, right?

01:27:37   If you have a hard disk or a fusion drive, you won't be converted.

01:27:41   I don't know if that means you can't be, I think you can still go to Disk Utility and

01:27:44   decide to convert your thing, but anyway, that's what they're doing.

01:27:47   It's a very simple straightforward policy and there's no choice in the matter and we're

01:27:52   all just going to deal with it.

01:27:53   A couple people have reported their Macs being unbootable, but it's still in beta, and who

01:27:57   knows, but I suspect the Mac transition will be rockier than the iOS one.

01:28:01   And then the only other minor item on this page that we'll link is Boot Camp doesn't

01:28:05   read or write APFS, in case you were wondering.

01:28:08   I really hope Boot Camp continues to be supported.

01:28:10   I hope they write a read-only driver for APFS so you can at least read your stuff, but right

01:28:15   now you won't be able to.

01:28:17   Did Boot Camp read HFS?

01:28:19   I think there was a read-only driver for HFS.

01:28:22   I'm thinking of the other way where they had a read-only driver for NTFS.

01:28:25   But either way, there is some way I think you can get HFS volumes, you can at least

01:28:28   read from them on Windows, even if it's not through Apple stuff.

01:28:31   But APFS is just too new, and if anyone was going to do it, it was going to be Apple,

01:28:34   and they didn't yet anyway.

01:28:35   Yeah, this is totally a fine change to me.

01:28:40   They have this—APFS was automatically converted to and deployed very widely on iOS devices.

01:28:47   And as far as we know, nothing bad happened.

01:28:50   And yes, the problem set is much smaller on iOS devices.

01:28:54   The number of possible configurations is much smaller.

01:28:58   The edge case count is way smaller on iOS.

01:29:02   But also the install base is way bigger.

01:29:04   The usage is way bigger.

01:29:06   So it seems like APFS is pretty solid.

01:29:10   And I'm sure there are areas like, I believe, they still haven't done automatic integrity

01:29:16   checking, right?

01:29:17   At the file system level in APFS?

01:29:19   Yeah.

01:29:20   - Yes sir, the checksum's on metadata only, not on data.

01:29:23   - Right, so there are areas of the file system

01:29:25   that still could be improved, ideally,

01:29:28   but what is there seems to be pretty solid.

01:29:33   The fact that they deployed it to every iOS device

01:29:36   and that's been running now for months

01:29:39   and it's been totally fine, that's pretty great.

01:29:42   So we know they're doing this carefully.

01:29:44   We know, like Craig Federighi mentioned

01:29:47   in the talk show live at ABC this year,

01:29:49   how a couple of versions before that,

01:29:53   when they deployed to iOS,

01:29:54   they would do test migrations and roll them back,

01:29:57   and then report back if anything failed to Apple.

01:30:00   So they knew what was happening there.

01:30:02   There have been some reports,

01:30:04   somebody pointed out that the latest Mac OS X update

01:30:07   seemed to take a very long time to apply.

01:30:10   And so there was a theory that maybe it was doing

01:30:13   the same thing, maybe it was doing those test migrations

01:30:15   that would then get rolled back before it completed.

01:30:19   Like, it seems like Apple knows how to do this.

01:30:22   It's already been done on a very, very large scale,

01:30:25   and this will be, relatively speaking,

01:30:27   a drop in the bucket.

01:30:29   Again, there are more edge cases on the Mac,

01:30:31   more different configurations that can be used,

01:30:32   more ways people use the file system

01:30:34   or depend on things working a certain way,

01:30:35   but I think they're doing a pretty good job of it,

01:30:38   and I trust them to do this correctly and carefully,

01:30:42   so I don't think this is bad at all.

01:30:45   - You know, that was pretty quick.

01:30:46   I have to concede, I am stunned.

01:30:49   - All right, so Marco, tell me about the lack of home button

01:30:52   on the iPhone Pro slash eight slash whatever it's called,

01:30:56   because there seems to have been some news from Bloomberg

01:30:58   that there will be no physical home button

01:31:00   on the new iPhone.

01:31:02   - Well, we already knew there would be no physical home

01:31:04   button, but this was more about like,

01:31:06   this is today's rumor that came out that basically is

01:31:09   claiming a certain way that the software-based home button

01:31:14   will work, that is different from what we've heard

01:31:16   or assumed in the past.

01:31:17   So what we've assumed up till now,

01:31:19   or heard up till now as rumors,

01:31:21   is basically that there would be an area,

01:31:24   basically where the home button is now,

01:31:26   but there would be an area on the phone

01:31:29   that you would push firmly there and it would go home.

01:31:34   And how that would be represented on the screen

01:31:36   was up for debate.

01:31:37   There was some speculation from the HomePod firmware

01:31:39   that maybe there was some kind of home indicator

01:31:42   that could show or hide at different times,

01:31:46   whether it's like a little circle down there,

01:31:47   or a dot, or who knows.

01:31:50   This whole area, we know a lot from the HomePod leak

01:31:55   and from all the rumor sites.

01:31:56   We know some things pretty firmly about like

01:31:58   the physical design of the next iPhone.

01:32:01   But the whole area that I think is most interesting to me

01:32:05   is how the software will actually deal

01:32:07   with this physical design.

01:32:09   And that is still mostly unknown to us.

01:32:13   of all the leaks, including the HomePod firmware,

01:32:16   not to mention all the rumors,

01:32:18   you would think at first,

01:32:20   there's not much surprise left for the event.

01:32:23   But actually, to me, there's tons of surprise left,

01:32:25   because we still don't have concrete, solid information,

01:32:29   and we still haven't seen how the software

01:32:31   will actually deal with this bizarre all-screen phone

01:32:34   with this notch on the top.

01:32:35   That, to me, is the most interesting part,

01:32:37   and I think most of that's going to remain a surprise.

01:32:39   Anyway, Bloomberg's trying to ruin that a little bit

01:32:41   by claiming that the home button is going to work

01:32:44   a totally different way that basically,

01:32:46   instead of having an area that you push at the bottom,

01:32:48   that you're gonna have a swipe up kind of gesture,

01:32:52   not that different from what the iPad does

01:32:53   in iOS 11 with the dock,

01:32:56   like a big swipe up gesture to go home

01:32:58   instead of pushing that area at the bottom.

01:33:00   And that therefore the entire screen

01:33:04   basically will be usable as regular application area,

01:33:07   not just having that hole in the bottom for a home button

01:33:11   and maybe like a toolbar area to the left and right of it.

01:33:15   And if this is true, obviously this raises a lot

01:33:18   of questions about implementation details,

01:33:21   if this is the direction they go,

01:33:23   I am certainly, that's gonna be a major change,

01:33:26   so I'm certainly a little wary of it,

01:33:30   but it would avoid a lot of issues.

01:33:33   Because if you think about, if they do the method

01:33:37   that we assumed before this, which is they have

01:33:40   like a home area that if you push there,

01:33:42   it works like a home button,

01:33:43   which I think is roughly what Samsung does

01:33:45   with their edge-to-edge thing, right?

01:33:46   Like I use one in the store

01:33:47   and I just kinda push down there and it seemed to work.

01:33:50   So I think that's basically what Samsung does

01:33:51   and that worked fine as far as I could tell

01:33:54   when I used it for two seconds in a Best Buy.

01:33:55   But if they do that, it does raise a lot of questions

01:34:00   about things like what happens to app UI that's down there?

01:34:05   You know, do you have tab bars still?

01:34:08   If so, does the tab bar just go completely on top of that

01:34:13   so that that whole bottom half of the screen

01:34:15   is just a home button and maybe something

01:34:16   on the left and right of it that maybe you can't control

01:34:19   or you don't have full control or you can only put

01:34:21   maybe a navigation item down there or something like that.

01:34:24   Is it like that?

01:34:25   'Cause if that's the case, then that whole bottom area

01:34:28   is fairly significantly wasted.

01:34:32   It's not totally wasted, but it raises the question

01:34:35   of why even make it a screen if you're not gonna have

01:34:37   much use for that area.

01:34:40   If they let applications put content down there,

01:34:43   but also have like a big home button hole

01:34:45   in the middle of that bottom row,

01:34:47   then you have to think, what happens with things

01:34:50   like tab bars, where you typically have like, you know,

01:34:53   this row of four or five buttons

01:34:56   across the bottom of the screen?

01:34:58   Do you go with like a two on the left, two on the right,

01:35:01   nothing in the middle kind of arrangement,

01:35:02   or something like that, and just have a big hole

01:35:05   in the middle of any tab bar that goes in there?

01:35:06   You can, that's one option, it's not a great option,

01:35:09   but you know, you can do that.

01:35:11   The claimed method by this Bloomberg article

01:35:14   is that it's going to be swipe-based

01:35:17   and that basically that the entire screen

01:35:19   will be usable for apps, or the vast majority

01:35:21   of the screen will be usable by apps most of the time,

01:35:23   and there won't be this hole in the middle of the bottom

01:35:26   that is reserved for the home button,

01:35:28   that some kind of swipe up from the bottom

01:35:30   will be used instead to go home.

01:35:32   If so, I'm interested to see that.

01:35:36   that sounds like it would solve some of these problems,

01:35:39   I think it might introduce new problems,

01:35:41   but I don't think we know enough as actual fact,

01:35:46   not just speculation, to say for sure,

01:35:48   obviously this is what they're doing,

01:35:51   we don't know that yet,

01:35:51   but we don't have enough information here

01:35:54   to really know for sure what they're going to do.

01:35:57   I would also say that Bloomberg and Germin's record

01:36:01   on things like this in recent times has been pretty spotty.

01:36:05   So I would not take this as fact

01:36:07   and would definitely not take this as a given.

01:36:09   - The thing he does lately, which I don't understand

01:36:11   'cause it doesn't seem like he needs to do this,

01:36:14   is writes about things in the present tense.

01:36:17   Like Apple is experimenting with different ways

01:36:20   that the home button can work.

01:36:21   It's like Apple perhaps did experiment

01:36:23   with different ways that the home button would work.

01:36:25   But at this point, with the event like a week or two away,

01:36:29   Apple's not experimenting with different ways

01:36:31   of the home button.

01:36:32   Different fundamental ways

01:36:33   to use that bottom half of the screen.

01:36:34   I'm pretty sure they know.

01:36:36   Yeah, like they've picked one by now.

01:36:38   Or even like worst case,

01:36:39   they have two complete implementations

01:36:41   that they're gonna pick between,

01:36:42   but they're not in the experimental stage anymore.

01:36:44   Like that ship is sailed.

01:36:45   Anyway, on this particular thing about the home button,

01:36:49   this gives a little bit more of the answer

01:36:51   of what the heck do we get with Edge Data Screen?

01:36:52   Because if they don't have to dedicate

01:36:53   any of the bottom of the screen to essentially to UI,

01:36:56   but the app can use it all,

01:36:57   hey, I got, and now I can see more tweets, right?

01:36:59   Whatever, like it's a benefit.

01:37:01   You can see it being a benefit.

01:37:02   It makes that part of the screen

01:37:03   like you're actually using it.

01:37:04   It's not just like a virtual representation

01:37:07   of the chin on our phones today.

01:37:11   But all that said, if it is swipe based,

01:37:15   swiping on phones for me,

01:37:18   and I think forever just like in general,

01:37:20   to do a successful swipe, case or no case,

01:37:25   anything like that is a,

01:37:27   it's like you have to find the right balance

01:37:31   between how hard you press your finger on the screen

01:37:35   and how hard you swipe and how you hold the phone.

01:37:38   Because obviously if you press too hard,

01:37:40   you get too much friction,

01:37:41   it's hard to like slide your finger and do the gesture.

01:37:44   If you press too lightly and just graze it,

01:37:46   maybe you won't activate,

01:37:47   especially if like your fingers are cold or whatever.

01:37:50   So there's a balance, like you have to,

01:37:52   it requires more finesse to do any kind of swipe gesture

01:37:58   than it does to do a button press, virtual or otherwise.

01:38:01   because with a button press, you find the place where you need to apply the pressure

01:38:05   and you just bear down.

01:38:07   And for the most part, unless you go all the way through and activate force touch, but

01:38:10   even so, maybe that's not that bad, it is easier to sort of fumble in your pocket and

01:38:15   like, obviously with physical buttons, just jam the sleep/wake button, or jam your finger

01:38:20   on the home button, moving or otherwise, or if it was the bottom of the screen with the

01:38:25   virtual thing, jam your finger somewhere on the bottom of the screen even if you can't

01:38:28   feel it because now it's just a screen image.

01:38:30   But a swipe requires more finesse.

01:38:32   And for a move that you do so frequently, pick up my phone, put my finger on Touch ID,

01:38:36   unlock it, open it up, pick it up, activate it or whatever, or just hit the home button

01:38:41   to switch between apps or double tap to do the switcher, I'm a little bit wary of my

01:38:47   dexterity for that common maneuver to feel as comfortable as it does to me to just blindly,

01:38:55   ham-fistedly press somewhere on the phone, wherever that might be.

01:39:00   But I think my weariness will probably, even if it is slightly worse, I think it will be

01:39:05   made up for by the additional screen real estate.

01:39:07   Because the screen real estate you enjoy all the time.

01:39:10   And the additional dexterity required to pull up the swipe things, A, is probably only a

01:39:14   problem for old people.

01:39:16   Like for younger people who are more plastic and they'll just get used to it, right?

01:39:21   But B, as often as you may do that, as often as you may activate the home button, you spend

01:39:26   way more time staring at your phone screen and scrolling through lists of stuff.

01:39:29   So I think in the end it's going to be a trade-off, but I am a little bit wary of more swipe gestures.

01:39:35   Because I just think of all the swipe gestures I do on my phone now and how occasionally

01:39:38   I'm not successful at them, and that's not a pleasant experience, whereas I'm pretty

01:39:42   much always successful at pressing the home button.

01:39:44   Yeah, there's a lot of potential for conflict with that gesture.

01:39:50   Any gesture that involves a big swipe from any of the sides of the phone or in any large

01:39:56   direction on the phone, you're going to have substantial conflict risk with that, with

01:40:01   other things within apps or even other system gestures.

01:40:04   You know, obviously one of the big questions is what do you do with control center?

01:40:08   Is it the kind of thing where you pull up a little bit and you get control center and

01:40:11   you pull up a lot and you go home or vice versa?

01:40:13   Like who knows?

01:40:14   >> Have you used iOS 11?

01:40:15   Was that weird?

01:40:17   The same thing they have on iOS 11 with the multi?

01:40:18   You pull up a little bit and it brings the dock, but if you keep pulling it's the other

01:40:21   thing.

01:40:22   And even just on iOS 10, I found myself, I'm really good at this gesture, but I found myself

01:40:25   looking at it consciously today and realizing how good I am at making this fine distinction

01:40:31   after lots of practice.

01:40:32   If you pull down from the top of your phone, like I think, if I think notifications, my

01:40:36   thumb pulls down from the top of my phone and I see notifications.

01:40:39   If I think launch an application that I just launched, my thumb pulls down from the top

01:40:43   of the phone and it shows recent applications because I'm on Springboard.

01:40:46   They're two different gestures.

01:40:47   You have to start above the edge of the screen for the notifications and below the edge of

01:40:50   the screen and be on Springboard for the apps, but I just do them without thinking.

01:40:55   So I guess that's the best case scenario, that this is a bottom of the phone gesture,

01:40:59   but it's pretty picky.

01:41:00   Like, try to explain to somebody the nuances of swiping from off the edge of the screen

01:41:04   versus just swiping sideways.

01:41:06   I've seen many people do the wrong version of that to bad effect and not understand why

01:41:11   they didn't pull it off.

01:41:13   It's learnable, but again, it's subtle and it requires much more finesse than press this

01:41:17   big circular button to bring back the place where you see all your apps.

01:41:21   Yeah.

01:41:22   I'm curious to see where this goes.

01:41:24   And a lot of people have been making comparisons to WebOS,

01:41:26   which is presumably completely reasonable,

01:41:30   but I never used a WebOS device,

01:41:31   so I don't know squat about it.

01:41:32   But I don't know, I'm curious to see where this goes

01:41:35   and see how it feels in execution,

01:41:37   because I can tell you that my initial,

01:41:40   I only have iOS 11 on my iPad,

01:41:42   and my initial impression of putting it there

01:41:45   was where did Control Center go?

01:41:47   And eventually I was able to deduce,

01:41:49   "Oh, you just need to swipe further?"

01:41:52   But golly, that's tough for a normal user

01:41:57   that isn't really thinking about these sorts of things.

01:42:00   And I didn't care for it at all at first.

01:42:03   And over time, I've gotten used to it,

01:42:05   the deep swipe, or deep isn't the best word,

01:42:08   but the long swipe in order to get control center.

01:42:10   But we'll see how it works on the phone.

01:42:13   I am really excited about the prospect

01:42:15   of having a phone that's sized for humans,

01:42:17   but has the screen from the Plus,

01:42:21   so, or you know, roughly anyway.

01:42:23   So I'm very anxious about the thought

01:42:25   of being able to buy one of those,

01:42:27   despite the fact that it's apparently going to be

01:42:29   like over $1,000, which I'm not too thrilled about,

01:42:31   but you know, it is what it is.

01:42:34   - Yeah, honestly, I,

01:42:35   whatever acrobatics are required to have this phone work

01:42:40   the way we want with things like touch ID, face ID,

01:42:44   screen sizes, edge swiping, all this stuff,

01:42:47   I think it's probably gonna be worth it

01:42:48   because there's been this tension in the iPhone line

01:42:52   ever since the introduction of the plus size phones,

01:42:54   which is like many of us, myself included,

01:42:58   want the screen of the plus,

01:43:00   like we want the biggest screen we can get,

01:43:03   but those phones are just too big for us

01:43:05   to comfortably carry and use and hold and everything else.

01:43:09   So the idea of having a much bigger screen

01:43:13   in the phone size that we're able to carry now,

01:43:16   like the middle size or something very close to it,

01:43:19   that's exactly what everybody wants.

01:43:22   That is so desirable that I think we're gonna be willing

01:43:25   to tolerate quite a lot of weirdness and transitions

01:43:30   and even possibly downsides to get that

01:43:32   because that is not a small thing.

01:43:34   Anyway, thanks for our three sponsors this week,

01:43:38   Casper, Audible, and Fracture, and we'll see you next week.

01:43:42   (upbeat music)

01:43:45   Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin

01:43:49   'Cause it was accidental (accidental)

01:43:52   Oh, it was accidental (accidental)

01:43:55   John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

01:44:00   'Cause it was accidental (accidental)

01:44:03   Oh, it was accidental (accidental)

01:44:06   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

01:44:11   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them

01:44:16   @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

01:44:20   So that's Kasey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:44:24   Auntie Marco Armin, S-I-R-A-C

01:44:29   USA, Syracuse

01:44:32   It's accidental

01:44:35   They didn't mean to

01:44:37   Accidental

01:44:40   ♫ Tech podcast so long

01:44:43   - So Casey, what is your deep thought about batteries,

01:44:48   as indicated in the show notes?

01:44:50   - It's actually a question, and it's probably silly,

01:44:53   but I was thinking about this the other day,

01:44:55   and I was wondering if I could choose,

01:44:59   and thus I will be asking the two of you as well,

01:45:01   if I could choose one corporation that exists today

01:45:05   to make a just night and day battery breakthrough.

01:45:09   So let's assume for the sake of this hypothetical that it takes, you know, one hundredth of

01:45:16   the time to charge whatever battery we're talking about.

01:45:18   So if it's an iPhone, it takes like, you know, a few seconds or something like that.

01:45:23   And if it's a Tesla, it takes maybe ten minutes or something to go from empty to full, or

01:45:27   maybe less than that, given that the superchargers are pretty darn quick.

01:45:31   So if you could pick one and only one company to make just an utterly amazing battery breakthrough,

01:45:39   Who would it be?

01:45:40   And the obvious answer for the three of us is Apple,

01:45:44   because we want our iPhones to last forever,

01:45:46   but I think it's bigger than that, right?

01:45:47   - I wouldn't pick Apple.

01:45:49   - Right, so I never really reached a great conclusion,

01:45:53   which is funny for me to be bringing it up.

01:45:55   I feel like some auto manufacturer may be the best answer

01:46:00   so that we could get into real honest to goodness

01:46:04   electric cars that aren't compromised mobiles.

01:46:06   To be fair, the Tesla is amazing.

01:46:08   It is amazing and the compromises are made

01:46:11   in the best possible way, but in a lot of ways,

01:46:13   I still feel like it's a series of compromises.

01:46:15   So I feel like some auto manufacturer, maybe Tesla,

01:46:18   would be a really great answer here,

01:46:21   but I have a feeling after listening to you two,

01:46:24   I'll be convinced that maybe there's a better choice.

01:46:27   So Jon, you seem pretty enthusiastic about this.

01:46:30   What would you say?

01:46:30   If you could pick one company

01:46:32   to make just a tremendous battery breakthrough,

01:46:35   who would it be?

01:46:36   So it's not a tremendous battery breakthrough unless--

01:46:39   because there are battery technologies

01:46:40   that do exactly what you're saying.

01:46:42   But unless it also works out with a cost

01:46:44   in manufacturability and the resources it uses.

01:46:47   So that's what you're talking about when you say a breakthrough,

01:46:48   right?

01:46:49   And in the end, batteries are a commodity.

01:46:51   So ideally, this breakthrough would

01:46:55   come from academia or something not associated with the company.

01:46:58   That would probably be the easiest

01:46:59   and gives you your best chance not

01:47:02   to be encumbered by stupid patents or whatever.

01:47:04   But in the end, what I want it to be is something that is able to be produced on a large scale

01:47:14   by some boring company that just produces things on a large scale.

01:47:18   So maybe an existing battery manufacturer, or like, you know, General Motors or Siemens,

01:47:23   Panasonic.

01:47:24   Yeah, or like any, you know, whatever giant corporation that makes commodities out of

01:47:30   natural resources is the least evil, right?

01:47:32   But either way, I don't want it to be under control by a single company, right?

01:47:37   And I want it to be the type of thing that everybody has access to.

01:47:40   Because in the same way that they're building up all this battery capacity for all the electric

01:47:44   vehicles, the car industry is actually not a bad place.

01:47:47   Because in general, there is very little technological secret sauce in terms of the commodities.

01:47:54   Like Toyota will sell its hybrid power trains to other people if they're going to pay for

01:47:58   them.

01:47:59   If someone has excess capacity to manufacture some commodity type thing, they will sell

01:48:02   to other people, right?

01:48:03   So I want it to be a very large company

01:48:05   that's good at building things, you know,

01:48:08   for everybody else and that it's all just like,

01:48:10   I will sell this to everybody who wants to sell it

01:48:12   and it just becomes a commodity

01:48:13   that everybody is able to manufacture

01:48:15   because the breakthrough happened in academia

01:48:17   and all the patents are freely available.

01:48:21   I wouldn't want Apple to do it or Tesla or any other thing

01:48:23   because I'm afraid they tried to turn it

01:48:24   into a competitive advantage.

01:48:25   That's the last thing we want.

01:48:27   We want the technology to spread everywhere far and wide.

01:48:29   We don't want it to be, oh, this lets Apple and/or Tesla

01:48:34   extract an extra six months or a year of larger profits

01:48:38   because it takes longer for everyone else to catch up.

01:48:40   So it's not a very satisfying answer,

01:48:42   but it's just, you know, it's not the old world

01:48:46   where like there's a breakthrough

01:48:49   and it belongs to a company.

01:48:50   Things like this, like battery capacity or CPUs,

01:48:53   or like, you know, whatever, material science in general

01:48:56   should be and generally are industry-wide.

01:48:59   Marco? Yeah, I think Jon covered it pretty well.

01:49:05   Obviously the right answer is basically what Jon said. A more interesting specific answer,

01:49:11   if you think about what types of products or uses are really held back by battery technology

01:49:18   today, and you can look at things like computers and phones and the tech gadgets that we all

01:49:24   and in many ways, we're doing just fine.

01:49:27   Like, yeah, everyone could, we would all love

01:49:31   more battery life.

01:49:32   We would all love to not have to plug in ever

01:49:34   or to have, to actually be able to use

01:49:37   the amazing computing resources that are in

01:49:38   these mobile devices frequently and all day

01:49:42   without having to like massively throttle

01:49:45   all the applications and very tightly control power

01:49:48   and you know, obviously it would make a big difference

01:49:50   in things like the Apple Watch where like,

01:49:52   the application paradigms and the display uses

01:49:55   could be so much better if we didn't have to worry

01:49:57   so much about power constantly.

01:49:59   So that's kind of like the boring answer,

01:50:01   like yeah, make all of our tech gadgets

01:50:02   have way better batteries, that would be nice.

01:50:05   But we still have a great tech industry

01:50:09   and these gadgets are still awesome

01:50:11   and amazingly capable even with what we already have.

01:50:13   So I think it might be more interesting to look at like,

01:50:16   where are areas in which batteries and battery technology

01:50:20   just is not good enough to even make big shifts possible yet

01:50:24   or ever.

01:50:25   So obviously you can look at transportation in other ways

01:50:28   and you can say obviously airplanes currently can't be

01:50:31   electrically powered because the power and weight ratio

01:50:34   is just way off.

01:50:35   - Don't say that.

01:50:37   There are plenty of electric powered airplanes.

01:50:38   You mean airliners, right?

01:50:39   - Yeah, big airplanes, yeah.

01:50:41   There's large parts of transportation that

01:50:45   battery technology, like batteries are just too heavy

01:50:48   or too big or don't have the capacity or charge too slowly.

01:50:53   One area that's recently getting a little bit of traction

01:50:56   in the electric vehicle news is trucks, long haul trucks,

01:51:01   like big semis and stuff.

01:51:03   Lots of energy is spent on trucking

01:51:05   and if you can electrify trucks the way that cars

01:51:08   are gonna be electrified,

01:51:10   that could have pretty substantial savings

01:51:13   to both people who truck and also the environment

01:51:16   around all these things.

01:51:18   That could be a pretty significant fuel reduction.

01:51:20   And trucks have an issue where you need a lot of power

01:51:25   to move a big semi-truck with a big trailer and everything.

01:51:28   It's just a big load,

01:51:29   and they're not particularly aerodynamic,

01:51:32   so you need a lot of power.

01:51:33   And also, truckers can't afford to sit around

01:51:37   for like two hours while things recharge every 100 miles.

01:51:40   That's not feasible for that business.

01:51:43   So for trucks to be electrified,

01:51:46   you need significant improvements for that to really be a thing that could take off.

01:51:51   So like, I would lean more towards areas like that, where like things that like, you basically

01:51:56   just can't do efficiently with batteries as we know them today, just because like, the

01:52:02   ratios and the economics and whatever else are just completely infeasible as we know

01:52:06   them today. That would be my answer, is like, find things that we just can't really do electrically

01:52:13   today in a reasonable way, make those more practical

01:52:17   or more feasible.

01:52:18   So obviously, things like trucks, I would say probably

01:52:22   like container ships, like big ships in the ocean,

01:52:25   similar problem, airliners, like other parts

01:52:28   of transportation that it would be nice to eliminate

01:52:32   their emissions or reduce their emissions at least,

01:52:35   and we just can't do that yet.

01:52:38   - Oh, I forgot, clothing, going in the other direction.

01:52:40   Your battery breakthrough could be amazing fast

01:52:43   charging tiny lightweight

01:52:45   Inexpensive waterproof batteries that you can weave into clothing so that you can stream Spotify from your shorts because your shorts know how to stream Spotify

01:52:52   Like that's the other that's the other direction of like oh, there's so many places where you can't use

01:52:58   Electric power at all because batteries are too big and bulky and it would be too much of a hassle

01:53:02   But if batteries were the size of grains of sand and enough energy to stream Spotify all day

01:53:07   It would be in every piece of clothing you own if they were also cheap to manufacture, right?

01:53:11   Do what I want my shorts to be playing music. I'm not I'm not entirely sure it plays it into your ears

01:53:16   But it's the thing that receives the radio signals and sends it through Bluetooth version 8 bazillion up into your your magic air pods

01:53:23   Whatever they could use bone conduction technology and send it through my sit bones

01:53:36   Feel like there's some humanitarian angle here that we're not considering, you know, it's like providing power to

01:53:41   Communities that simply don't have any like it's not even an option or it's unaffordable or whatever the case

01:53:46   That's like storage of solar energy

01:53:49   That's it

01:53:49   You know a battery that just battery breakthrough but just like the energy problem

01:53:52   like if you want world peace if you could solve the energy problem and there was like free energy for everybody that would

01:53:57   Solve a lot of problems really quickly because energy is convertible as you may know into many other goods and services

01:54:03   Right, and it's all like if you can solve that problem

01:54:06   Like it doesn't take like, you know

01:54:10   The old sort of sci-fi utopia is like if you had unlimited free energy for everybody

01:54:15   No one needs to work anymore

01:54:16   like you just need to have this sort of base level technology to convert that energy into food and shelter and

01:54:21   other types of things like it's you know, but we're you know, that's

01:54:26   Thermodynamics has something to say about the whole free energy thing, but we could you know deplete the the earth

01:54:32   Firefly style and live on the high on the hog for a while until the machines take over and enslave us all

01:54:37   Well, it's a positive outlook John, but Marco will be dead so he doesn't care

01:54:43   [laughter]

01:54:48   (beeping)