234: Everybody Has Asterisks


00:00:00   When we last saw our heroes, they were doing all the things they normally do.

00:00:05   But today, they do something different. This is the Q&A episode.

00:00:09   All right, so it is still in ATP time, Friday the 4th of August. But most of you listening are

00:00:17   probably listening somewhere on or around the 9th of August. And we did this because, as we covered

00:00:22   last episode, we didn't plan our vacation as well. In any case, so yeah, we're gonna do a Q&A episode.

00:00:28   So we had solicited "had" being the keyword, solicited questions via Twitter.

00:00:33   Are you telling our audience to please stop asking questions now?

00:00:36   Is that what that means?

00:00:37   Well, you can certainly continue to ask questions, but we are not planning another Q&A episode

00:00:42   for at least a year.

00:00:44   So you can ask, but they're pretty much going into the ether.

00:00:48   But what about the Ask ATP segment that we're going to add to the show?

00:00:51   Yeah, I would like to keep the questions going.

00:00:53   Oh!

00:00:54   I mean, they don't have to be as many questions, because we're answering like two of them,

00:00:57   but…

00:00:58   All right, the hosts have spoken.

00:01:01   We have a…

00:01:02   So just two or three people ask a question every week.

00:01:05   You figure it out amongst yourselves, you coordinate, and then…

00:01:09   All right, fair enough.

00:01:10   So we are going to do this in quasi-chronological order.

00:01:15   We have selected questions…

00:01:16   That's a terrible idea!

00:01:17   Because of this…

00:01:18   Here's the thing.

00:01:19   They were going into this spreadsheet, but I was afraid if I tried to sort them that

00:01:22   that it would mess with the automate, I don't know,

00:01:25   like whatever, we're gonna go from top to bottom

00:01:28   in this document.

00:01:28   - I think you can't save, the document you can't save.

00:01:31   - I think it turns out that adding every single tweet

00:01:35   with this hashtag to a giant spreadsheet

00:01:38   and having no way to like filter or upvote

00:01:41   or sort them at all might not be the best tool

00:01:43   for this job, turns out.

00:01:45   - Well, I am happy for you to coordinate the replacement,

00:01:50   my friend, 'cause this seemed like the lowest impact

00:01:53   way to me.

00:01:53   I agree with you, it is not ideal,

00:01:55   but it's the lowest impact version I got.

00:01:57   - Are we supposed to be using things like Reddit?

00:01:59   Is that a thing?

00:02:00   Are we supposed to be using--

00:02:01   - Oh, yeah, that is what the Reddits are for, isn't it?

00:02:03   - No, we're not supposed to be doing that.

00:02:06   (laughing)

00:02:07   - All right, that's question number one, answered.

00:02:09   - All right.

00:02:10   (laughing)

00:02:10   - All that said, if anyone on this show or off the show

00:02:15   wants to make "A replacement that's better

00:02:16   than this spreadsheet," I will endorse it.

00:02:19   - It would be, we probably should have some way

00:02:20   to upvote or downvote, and some way for one of the admins,

00:02:24   which would be us, to say, all right,

00:02:25   this question we're just not gonna answer,

00:02:27   so just kill it.

00:02:28   - Yeah, but unlike Reddit, I'm not sure this needs

00:02:30   to be publicly accessible, but whatever.

00:02:33   - All right, let's do it.

00:02:35   - Okay, so the show notes for this episode

00:02:38   may or may not exist, we'll see what happens.

00:02:40   But because it's basically just a bunch

00:02:43   of questions and answers.

00:02:44   And so I'm just gonna try to MC this

00:02:47   do the best I can with names, with questions, etc. And we're going to dig in with Gulik,

00:02:53   who asks, "Hey, why no more toaster reviews, Jon?"

00:02:58   The toaster reviews were a sponsorship, believe it or not. I know you don't remember that,

00:03:02   but like, they weren't just like, "Hey, you're reviewing a bunch of toasters." It was actually

00:03:05   ads for Cards Against Humanity, but instead of an ad read, they wanted me to do toaster

00:03:09   reviews. So they are not advertising, quote unquote, "advertising" on the show anymore.

00:03:15   "I don't have any other campaigns."

00:03:16   So that's why there's no more toaster reviews.

00:03:17   And if they did, they wouldn't do toasters again,

00:03:19   so you're not gonna get any more toaster reviews.

00:03:22   - And we have had many people suggest new things

00:03:26   that we could have a series of reviews for.

00:03:30   And honestly, none of them sounded as funny as that.

00:03:32   Like, that was such a great thing.

00:03:35   It had a wonderful progression, it ended.

00:03:38   I don't think it could have continued indefinitely.

00:03:39   I think it was pretty much done when it ended.

00:03:41   And every other suggestion we've seen since then

00:03:43   has been less funny.

00:03:45   So yeah, nobody has tackled anything more than that

00:03:48   and I think it probably won't happen,

00:03:50   at least in that format.

00:03:51   - And those suggestions weren't from sponsors, right?

00:03:54   That sponsorship is the key part of the toaster.

00:03:56   'Cause I don't think we would have endured

00:03:58   like in the middle of a tech podcast,

00:04:00   let's talk about toasters for five minutes

00:04:01   unless it was a sponsorship behind it.

00:04:04   - Yeah, and I think one of the funniest things about that

00:04:07   was like Cards Against Humanity,

00:04:09   and we later came to learn that the person

00:04:11   who was organizing all this there was Alex Cox,

00:04:14   now of Dubai Friday fame.

00:04:15   And like they really,

00:04:19   they weren't just sending random toasters,

00:04:22   like there was a clear progression,

00:04:24   like getting from the normal ones slowly

00:04:27   into the really bizarre and crazy and horrible things

00:04:30   like those big breakfast stations

00:04:32   that could make the egg on top and stuff like that.

00:04:34   It was clearly in this wonderful progression

00:04:37   that it was just so well done.

00:04:40   and you gotta give Cards Against Humanity credit

00:04:43   for that incredible run.

00:04:45   - Yeah, completely agree with you.

00:04:47   Kathy Wise writes in, "What cameras are you using now?"

00:04:52   And so I will begin, I'm using the same camera

00:04:55   that we got shortly before Declan was born,

00:04:57   that's an Olympus OM-D EM10,

00:05:00   which is a truly terrible name.

00:05:02   It is a Micro Four Thirds camera.

00:05:04   I have a prime lens for it,

00:05:06   that is what I use generally speaking,

00:05:07   and if you remember from the last episode,

00:05:10   which in ATP time happened about 15 minutes ago.

00:05:13   I also have a zoom lens, which I actually quite like.

00:05:17   And I was going to argue with you, Marco,

00:05:18   when you were saying, oh, you can't get a zoom lens

00:05:20   that covers all three parts of the triangle, if you will.

00:05:24   But as you were talking, you had mentioned,

00:05:26   well, if you do have a decent zoom lens,

00:05:29   that means it's exorbitantly expensive

00:05:31   and still probably has some other concessions.

00:05:35   And that is the case for me.

00:05:37   the zoom lens I have was like $800 or something like that.

00:05:40   And otherwise it's very nice, it's F2.8.

00:05:42   I think it's 100 to 300 millimeters in regular cameras.

00:05:47   I forget what it is in a Micro Four Thirds.

00:05:50   But anyway, I like it a lot, but it was very expensive.

00:05:54   Marco, what are you using?

00:05:56   - I am mostly using my iPhone, which makes me sad,

00:06:00   but that is the reality of it.

00:06:02   We do have the 5D Mark IV now in our family.

00:06:07   We actually had, we had for years,

00:06:09   ever since they came out, we had the 5D Mark II,

00:06:12   which came out I think in 2007 or 2008, something like that.

00:06:16   It was late 2008.

00:06:19   And so we had that since then and it was great,

00:06:22   but it was getting long on the tooth

00:06:23   in a lot of different ways.

00:06:25   And so for a little while, I had a Sony phase.

00:06:28   Because the Sony A series of cameras,

00:06:31   First I had the little RX1, then I had the A7R II,

00:06:35   and those are awesome cameras in a lot of ways.

00:06:38   But I found, I'll make it brief

00:06:40   'cause we've talked about this before,

00:06:42   I have found that I generally prefer the speed

00:06:47   and handling and battery life of full-sized SLRs

00:06:51   to the little Sony mirrorless cameras.

00:06:53   And I think over time that will probably eventually

00:06:56   change back as the little Sonys get better.

00:06:59   You know, the A9 has now come out

00:07:01   and it solves some of the problems I had.

00:07:03   It makes certain things worse.

00:07:05   So maybe there'll be an A7R III at some point

00:07:09   or an A9 Mark II or something like that

00:07:12   that I might go back for, but for now I'm very happy

00:07:14   in the world of big Canon SLRs when I need fancy photos.

00:07:19   But I take fancy photos less and less every year.

00:07:23   My wife takes them much more often

00:07:25   and she is way, way better of a photographer than I am.

00:07:29   So most of like the good pictures of our family and stuff are taken by her.

00:07:35   And so that kind of frees me out to do mostly the casual stuff.

00:07:38   So that's -- I'm shooting mostly on my iPhone if I shoot anything at all.

00:07:42   >> I'm still using my Sony A6300.

00:07:45   I thought of trading in for a 6500.

00:07:47   That was right up until I saw that the battery life was slightly worse.

00:07:51   And that really much did it for me because the battery life in 6300 is just barely enough.

00:07:56   Like I have two batteries.

00:07:57   And on vacation I never needed to swap the batteries even a day at the ocean, but I come

00:08:01   close and so I don't think I can give up that whatever 10% battery life.

00:08:06   And the 6500 is more expensive and so I've never done the swap.

00:08:09   I'm still looking at it.

00:08:10   I'm still, you know, I would still recommend the 6500 or the 6300 as long as you can deal

00:08:15   with the battery life, but be sure that you can because that's a big quality of life issue.

00:08:19   So I'm happy with that.

00:08:21   The only new lens I got recently is that big zoom.

00:08:24   I forget which one it is, but it's one of the Sony ones.

00:08:27   It's not a very good lens, like whatever.

00:08:29   What is it, 55-300, so it's a pretty big range again adjusting for what that is on an APC

00:08:37   sensor.

00:08:38   It's not, you know, those are the full frame numbers.

00:08:41   Still like my 50mm prime the best.

00:08:43   I have my own super expensive zoom that does 16-70 and is over $1000 and that is my sort

00:08:50   of general all purpose lens that I keep on the thing.

00:08:52   It's not as good as the 50 prime and it doesn't zoom as long as the big zoom but it's kind

00:08:57   of a nice all-arounder.

00:08:59   To get a reasonable, okay all-arounder, a thousand bucks.

00:09:03   Yeah.

00:09:04   Indeed.

00:09:05   Also from Kathy Wise, "Did the last show, which was actually two shows ago if I'm doing

00:09:09   this mental math right, shame you into clearing out your application folders?"

00:09:12   No, it did not.

00:09:13   Nope.

00:09:14   Not only did it not shame me into cleaning out my application folder, but I realized

00:09:19   after he finished that show that I was just looking at slash applications.

00:09:23   I also have a tilde slash applications with way more things in it.

00:09:26   more things in it, which is, that's like an old, an old school next early Mac OS X error

00:09:31   thing of having an applications folder in your home directory, which you can totally

00:09:35   have and the OS knows about it and gives it the little A icon, but only weird people do

00:09:41   that.

00:09:42   All right, moving on.

00:09:44   Oplez asks, "Which ad blocker do you guys, did actually Marco choose?"

00:09:50   It's not you guys.

00:09:51   Which ad blocker did Marco choose?

00:09:53   I'm kind of, you know, I was for a long time, so as soon as I killed peace, within I think

00:10:00   a month or two I stopped using it too. You kind of just to be fair, it kind of felt wrong

00:10:04   for me to use it and no one else did. I switched to one blocker back then and one blocker is

00:10:10   fine. It's, I don't have really much bad to say about it or much great to say about it.

00:10:16   It's just if you're going to go with one of those mass market blockers, one blocker at

00:10:20   the time I looked was the best one. I have noticed though over time more and

00:10:25   more sites are broken by it and and it there was a there was one of the iOS 11

00:10:32   betas where it was not working due to some limits that had changed so I went

00:10:37   looking and I started using better which is better.fyi it's a paid app and

00:10:42   it's like five bucks they have a Mac version and then I was version which is

00:10:45   nice and the Mac version kind of keep itself up to date which is nice it's

00:10:48   this little like menu bar extra thing.

00:10:50   So I've been trying Better out.

00:10:52   It doesn't seem to block as much stuff as One Blocker,

00:10:56   but it also doesn't break as many sites,

00:10:58   and it seems to block enough that works for me,

00:11:01   and it seems to get regular updates.

00:11:02   So right now I'm using Better,

00:11:04   but I've only been using it for maybe a few weeks at most,

00:11:08   so it's harder for me to really say

00:11:10   you should definitely go buy this.

00:11:11   But if you're looking to buy something right now,

00:11:13   that's the one I would start with.

00:11:15   - Jon, any thoughts?

00:11:16   They also use OneBlocker for the record, but John, any thoughts?

00:11:20   >> I'm also using OneBlocker, but occasionally, I don't know if the OS updates do it or something.

00:11:25   Sometimes it gets turned off and I don't notice for a while.

00:11:27   I don't have a good blocker situation going on.

00:11:30   You know, and half the time when things don't work, I do the little long hold down on the

00:11:35   reload to reload without blockers to see if that's the problem.

00:11:38   I think some sites are getting more obnoxious.

00:11:41   The Boston Globe is like, "You're running an ad blocker.

00:11:44   I don't like you," whatever.

00:11:45   and it's like, all right, well, fine.

00:11:47   You're gonna learn not to even tap those links.

00:11:50   And some site, I think it's like The Atlantic

00:11:51   or something like that, it's like,

00:11:54   sorry, something is wrong and we can't serve you ads.

00:11:56   And so I reload without content blockers

00:11:58   and it says the same thing.

00:11:59   Like, well, what do you want me to do?

00:12:00   Or like you're running an incognito mode.

00:12:02   Like I'm not, I'm not an incognito mode.

00:12:04   I'm just on my phone and I wanna read your website

00:12:06   and I turn everything off and you still,

00:12:08   and the worst thing is it does it with like a sheet

00:12:10   that goes down over the actual article

00:12:11   and you just wanna like right click

00:12:13   and inspect and delete node,

00:12:14   but you can't because you're on your phone.

00:12:15   It's like, this is, when Casey occasionally goes off

00:12:20   on his little angry rants about how he feels constrained

00:12:22   by iOS, I have that in small degrees too.

00:12:25   And it's basically whenever I do anything on a webpage

00:12:27   and I realize I don't have access to my web developer tools.

00:12:29   And I feel just completely crippled.

00:12:32   It's like, it's just a stupid web.

00:12:33   It's just a freaking div.

00:12:34   Let me delete it.

00:12:35   Like, I just saw the articles right there.

00:12:37   So here's what I do.

00:12:37   This is what I literally do.

00:12:38   To find out if I want to actually read the article,

00:12:41   I did long press to read the slug in the URL,

00:12:44   hoping that it's something sensible, but sometimes it's not.

00:12:47   Or I repeatedly revisit the page

00:12:48   and try to read the headline

00:12:50   before the stupid thing slides down on it.

00:12:51   Like I get three words in, oh, it slid down.

00:12:53   And then I reload three words in just to find out

00:12:55   is this a story that I want to bother

00:12:57   going to a quote-unquote real web browser

00:13:00   and looking at it or whatever.

00:13:03   Anyway, websites are annoying.

00:13:05   - You guys try way too hard to really,

00:13:07   if a site makes it difficult for me to read an article,

00:13:10   I just close it and I move on.

00:13:11   Because you know what?

00:13:13   no matter how good of a writer you are,

00:13:16   or no matter how great of journalists you are,

00:13:18   or whatever else, there's a lot of things

00:13:20   to read out there on the web.

00:13:22   And if you're gonna make it hard for me to read yours,

00:13:24   I'm just not going to read it.

00:13:26   And that might be like, if you have a site

00:13:28   with an anti ad blocker blocker thing,

00:13:31   if you won't let me read the site with an ad blocker,

00:13:34   that's a fair game.

00:13:35   I respect that decision of yours,

00:13:37   but that means I'm not going to turn off my ad blocker,

00:13:40   I'm just not going to read it.

00:13:41   But if that's the option you presented,

00:13:43   then fine.

00:13:44   That's what I'm saying, like I'm willing,

00:13:46   like oh, I detect you have an ad blocker,

00:13:48   like fine, I will turn off my ad blocker.

00:13:50   I'll turn it off, I'll be like, wait,

00:13:51   reload without content blockers, here I am.

00:13:53   I'm ready to see your thing.

00:13:55   It's not behind a paywall,

00:13:56   it's not like they want me to sign up,

00:13:57   subscribe or pay money, like there is no,

00:13:59   the site is just broken is what I'm saying.

00:14:00   I think it's a pretty well-known site,

00:14:01   maybe it's the Atlantic or whatever.

00:14:02   It's like, I'm doing everything you want me to do.

00:14:05   Turn off all my blockers, turn them off in settings,

00:14:08   not be in incognito mode, there's no paywall,

00:14:11   You're not asking me to sign up or subscribe.

00:14:13   You just, every time I try to load it, it's like,

00:14:15   sorry, I couldn't figure out something.

00:14:17   And I'm gonna put a big,

00:14:18   I'm gonna slide a big animated sheet down

00:14:20   over the article that's perfectly good.

00:14:21   There's no reader mode for people asking.

00:14:23   There's no, you know, websites, man.

00:14:26   Like, do you ever test on the iPhone?

00:14:27   It's a popular platform.

00:14:28   (laughing)

00:14:30   (upbeat music)

00:14:31   - We are sponsored this week by Warby Parker,

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00:15:00   and you get to try them on for five days

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00:15:10   do is pick out what you want and they'll send you this box of home try-ons.

00:15:14   You can try them, you can show people in your life, you can look in the mirror, you can

00:15:17   take pictures, whatever you want to do to decide what's right for you.

00:15:20   And there's no obligation.

00:15:21   You don't have to buy any of them.

00:15:23   But I bet you will because they're really high quality glasses.

00:15:25   My wife has a bunch of these and they are just wonderful and they come with great accessories,

00:15:30   a nice hard case, a cleaning cloth.

00:15:32   And for every pair you buy, a pair is distributed through Robot Vision charities to someone

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00:16:00   how the glasses will look on your face.

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00:16:04   you can share it with friends to help you pick a winner.

00:16:06   So even before you get the frames mailed to you

00:16:08   in the home try-on program,

00:16:09   you can preview how they're gonna look on you.

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00:16:47   Thank you very much to Warby Parker for sponsoring our show.

00:16:50   (upbeat music)

00:16:53   - All right, Jack Johnson, yes, from New York City apparently

00:16:58   has two questions that are related.

00:17:00   Do you think it would be a good move for iTunes

00:17:02   to offer a higher resolution audio file

00:17:05   for download or streaming?

00:17:06   And then kind of tangentially related,

00:17:09   do you think part of the HEVC strategy

00:17:11   is to set the groundwork for 4K streaming?

00:17:13   I will say that I don't think anyone really cares,

00:17:17   except Marco, about higher resolution audio

00:17:20   coming out of iTunes and--

00:17:22   - I don't, I don't even care about that.

00:17:24   - I'm surprised.

00:17:25   - So as for all my audio fileness

00:17:27   when it comes to like selecting headphones and stuff.

00:17:30   I have never been swayed by like higher than CD quality

00:17:35   audio files or lossless compression schemes.

00:17:39   I know a lot of people like these.

00:17:40   A lot of people think they can hear a difference.

00:17:43   I don't think you can, but I know for sure that I can't.

00:17:46   - All right, hold on though, hold on.

00:17:47   How do you download your Phish concerts?

00:17:49   - MP3.

00:17:50   They offer Flak options.

00:17:51   - I am stunned.

00:17:53   That's what I assumed you were gonna say.

00:17:54   - No, they offer Flak for a few more dollars

00:17:57   And there is, so I have bought, so quick background here,

00:18:02   Phish sells all their live shows legally

00:18:04   through their own site, like a few hours

00:18:06   after the show's end.

00:18:07   And so you can buy a season pass

00:18:09   and you can basically have downloads of every show they do

00:18:12   for like a whole tour.

00:18:13   So I do this, I've been doing this

00:18:14   since something like 2009 or so.

00:18:17   And there was one tour early on that I bought in Flack.

00:18:21   I preordered it and I'm like,

00:18:23   gosh, let me get the Flack Verge

00:18:24   and I'll see if it's something different.

00:18:26   and it was such a pain because, first of all,

00:18:30   iTunes didn't support Flack at the time.

00:18:31   I think it actually is finally adding that in High Sierra,

00:18:34   I think, but it didn't at the time.

00:18:36   And so I had all these massive files that,

00:18:40   first of all, I didn't want to ever delete them

00:18:42   because I paid for these massive files.

00:18:45   So they're taking up tons of space on the hard drive.

00:18:47   Then I still had to transcode them

00:18:49   to make them actually playable in anything.

00:18:51   I did play the original ones or there was,

00:18:55   see I think I think one one time I transcoded them to a lack or maybe I

00:18:58   download maybe they sold them as a lack I forget so I did for a group of them

00:19:03   transfer them and play them as lossless files as a lack files in iTunes and I

00:19:08   just I couldn't tell any difference at all and there's there's lots of again

00:19:13   there's lots of people who claim they can they can hear a difference there's a

00:19:15   whole lot of tests that have been done that have shown mostly otherwise but

00:19:21   this is one of those things kind of like my subwoofer thing from last episode of

00:19:24   Like, I do things my way, and some people consider them

00:19:28   insufficient, or some people want better things,

00:19:31   and I think I'm just, I don't, I can't care anymore.

00:19:34   Like, if you wanna do things your own way,

00:19:36   if you wanna get massive files with 2496 or 24192

00:19:41   sample rates, and if you wanna have lossless encoding,

00:19:44   and you want your albums to take up a gig each, fine.

00:19:48   It's, hardware space is cheap, do whatever you want.

00:19:51   - Wow, I could not possibly agree with you more,

00:19:53   But I was expecting to snicker as you told me about how flack is the only answer so kudos to you, sir

00:19:59   I am stunned. Do you want audio this lower quality and has like hiss and pop in it?

00:20:04   Here we go

00:20:08   something for Casey and I

00:20:10   like I

00:20:12   Don't I think it's not the right move for Apple to offer high-resolution audio

00:20:16   But if Apple ever gets to the point

00:20:19   I don't think they will because again streaming is what everyone cares about now as Marco pointed out earlier

00:20:23   slash on the last show, but it would be a way to make the Ferrari have purchasable downloadable

00:20:31   music.

00:20:32   Hey, can we charge more money for something that people perceive as better?

00:20:34   The answer is yes, you can.

00:20:37   You sell a lossless or a higher bit rate or some combination thereof, and a very small

00:20:42   number of people who think that is worthwhile for them will buy it.

00:20:46   It doesn't really matter if anyone can hear the difference.

00:20:48   It only matters whether they'll give you money in exchange for these goods, which are able

00:20:51   to be produced.

00:20:52   So I wouldn't totally rule it out.

00:20:53   I don't think it's something Apple needs to do at all.

00:20:55   But someday, if buying music at all downloadable

00:20:59   continues to be a thing, some smart person in marketing

00:21:02   may say, we're leaving money on the table

00:21:04   by not selling high resolution audio.

00:21:06   And they'll just do it and charge more money for it.

00:21:09   And a couple people will buy it

00:21:11   and there'll be a tiny bump in a graph

00:21:12   and someone will get a good performance review.

00:21:15   - Yeah, but you're right.

00:21:16   Like the thing is like, there is demand for this.

00:21:19   There is absolutely demand for higher than CD quality

00:21:23   sample rates and everything and higher bit rate formats

00:21:26   or more advanced formats or lossless formats.

00:21:29   There is definitely demand for that.

00:21:31   Most people don't even know,

00:21:33   people who listen to the show probably aren't aware

00:21:35   quite how many options there are for

00:21:40   what basically amount to fancy iPods

00:21:44   that sell today for like $400 or more,

00:21:48   that Sony makes a bunch of them.

00:21:51   They're basically little, pocketable,

00:21:54   portable audio players, as far as a deck of cards,

00:21:57   like that kind of size class,

00:21:58   that have a headphone just like the old iPod Classic,

00:22:01   that play these super high bitrate files.

00:22:04   Like they could actually output them

00:22:05   and decode them with a fancy DAC and everything else.

00:22:08   This market exists.

00:22:10   People buy these things for like $400,

00:22:12   but not a lot of people.

00:22:15   And there are streaming services,

00:22:16   Things like Neil Young's Pano, things like even Tidal,

00:22:20   which is a fairly decently sized streaming service now,

00:22:23   like streaming services that have either been,

00:22:27   or even music sales service, I don't think Pano

00:22:30   even was streaming, I think it only sold stuff

00:22:32   if it even still exists.

00:22:33   But anyway, there are services that will either sell you

00:22:36   high bit rate music legally, or that will let you

00:22:39   stream them like Tidal.

00:22:41   And they use these things as, they use the quality

00:22:44   as their main selling point,

00:22:46   but they don't really ever become mass market,

00:22:47   they don't really ever get anywhere off the ground really.

00:22:49   The only reason Tidal has gotten anywhere

00:22:52   is because it has had exclusives.

00:22:54   Like they've had exclusive album releases on there.

00:22:57   Other than that, when they were really only

00:22:59   about the music quality, they got nowhere.

00:23:01   The fact is, most people don't care,

00:23:05   and most people don't need to care,

00:23:06   because for most of these gains,

00:23:07   there actually is no perceptible difference to most people.

00:23:10   So while Apple could sell high bit rate song stuff,

00:23:15   that would just be appealing to a very, very small market

00:23:18   in what is already a declining market,

00:23:20   which is the market of music sales.

00:23:23   - So the second part of this, about HEVC being part of 4K,

00:23:26   yep, 100%, like 4K video is bigger,

00:23:30   HEVC is a higher efficiency codec,

00:23:32   it supports higher resolutions for video,

00:23:36   not just the images with the HEAV thing.

00:23:38   Anyway, yes, it's 100% part of that,

00:23:40   And that's why we're going to see a 4K Apple TV and ATVC-encoded content that plays on

00:23:45   it.

00:23:46   I agree.

00:23:47   Adam Sack writes in to say, and this is the first in a theme that I noticed, which was

00:23:54   try to get the ATP hosts to hate each other.

00:23:57   So he writes in, "If you had to use the daily tech setup of one of your co-hosts for a week

00:24:03   instead of your own, whose devices would you choose?"

00:24:07   and I will start off and I would probably choose Markos

00:24:10   because it is in general most similar to my setup.

00:24:14   Obviously there are differences, but most similar to mine.

00:24:16   And he has some pretty kick-ass headphones, so win-win.

00:24:19   - Everyone would pick Markos, including Marco,

00:24:21   because he has the best stuff.

00:24:23   Who's not gonna pick Marco's setup?

00:24:24   I don't wanna use Casey's crappy laptop, come on.

00:24:27   No one wants to use my 10-year-old Mac Pro.

00:24:28   So, I would pick Marco's.

00:24:31   - Yeah, I would pick Casey's because non-retina.

00:24:33   Sorry, John, you lose.

00:24:36   You should have picked my wife's. You should have picked the 5K iMac. It's the one without

00:24:39   image retention.

00:24:40   Yeah, that's actually better than mine.

00:24:43   Oh, that's funny. Ian Muren writes in to say, and I don't think I selected this as one to

00:24:50   answer but I have a feeling I know who did. "I have an 08 Accord. When's the ideal time

00:24:55   to replace it? It's at about 80,000 miles. No maintenance issues to date."

00:24:59   Jon, did you perhaps star this as a question to be answered?

00:25:03   I did because I think this is a good question.

00:25:05   No way.

00:25:06   That's a good question.

00:25:07   So the right time, probably the best time to replace this Accord was right now or last

00:25:12   year because the best time to get an Accord is at the tail end of a generation when they

00:25:19   worked all the kinks out of it and they have, we always get the special edition, even if

00:25:22   you don't get the special edition.

00:25:23   Like they know how to build that generation of car.

00:25:26   It has the most doodads and nice things added to it and they figure it out low and the first

00:25:31   model to put the USB port in the wrong place or you know fiddle things like

00:25:34   that's the time to get it. The first car of the generation, the new Accord, I

00:25:41   think the new Accord is uglier than the old one but it does have a better

00:25:46   infotainment system so that's the other time you can get us like the excitement

00:25:51   of getting in on the first car in a new generation but in general when your

00:25:56   Accord starts getting to be around 10 years old I feel like that's the time to

00:25:59   If you want to have any chance of having any reasonable trade-in on it or private sale,

00:26:03   whatever you want to do with it, don't wait until the car is basically worthless or it's

00:26:07   worth like a couple hundred bucks.

00:26:08   Wait until it's still a couple thousand dollars worth of value in your car.

00:26:12   It's before crap starts breaking.

00:26:14   Like you said, it's 80,000 miles, nothing is issued with it.

00:26:18   It's an '08, right?

00:26:19   It's getting to be around 10 years.

00:26:21   Time to replace.

00:26:23   You know, just as a point of comparison, I pretty much agree with you, but when we bought

00:26:29   the Volvo, we traded in Aaron's 2007 Mazda6, which had a little bit shy of 80,000 miles

00:26:36   on it, and as I believe I talked about on the show, was pretty much a tank.

00:26:40   That thing almost never had any problems.

00:26:43   And we got $3,000 in change for it.

00:26:47   I think Carmax offered us three grand.

00:26:49   So it was not worthless by any means, but I agree with you, Jon, that this is the kind

00:26:53   of edge of the cliff, I think, and you go too much further and you're going to fall

00:26:57   right off that cliff.

00:26:59   Marco, any thoughts on this?

00:27:01   Nope.

00:27:02   Good talk.

00:27:03   Joe Sullivan writes in, "Is there anything that Syracuse is in favor of or likes without

00:27:09   any caveats, reservations, or asterisks?"

00:27:11   And I have to congratulate Joe Sullivan because there are about a million ways to ask this

00:27:16   question like a big fat jerk, and this was not one of them.

00:27:18   So well done.

00:27:19   That's a great question.

00:27:20   They put too many things at the end of this question.

00:27:23   Caveats, reservations, or asterisks?

00:27:24   Well, caveats, you kind of know what that means.

00:27:28   Reservations, meh, it's still getting a little bit vague.

00:27:30   What would asterisks mean?

00:27:31   Like, oh, something else in addition that you want to say about it?

00:27:33   Like to answer your question, there is nothing, there's nothing so perfect, come on, it's

00:27:37   right in the slogan.

00:27:38   Like there are tons of things that I really like, but if pressed to say, hey, you really

00:27:44   like Kiki's Delivery Service, is there anything wrong with that movie?

00:27:47   Well, I mean, I feel like it's actually probably closest.

00:27:52   If pressed, I can come up with asterisks for Kiki's Delivery Service, sure.

00:27:57   Of course you can, right?

00:28:00   Nothing is going to be absolutely perfect.

00:28:03   If you literally can't think of anything wrong with it, then you probably don't understand

00:28:07   the thing.

00:28:08   But that doesn't mean, like, these are my favorite things in the whole world.

00:28:10   Overwhelmingly, everything I feel about these is that they're great, right?

00:28:14   So I think that qualifies.

00:28:16   And that reasonable definition of is there anything

00:28:19   that you are like without any caveats reservation?

00:28:22   Like if someone said, hey, you know,

00:28:26   I need a good movie to watch.

00:28:27   And I say, well, if you've never seen

00:28:29   the Empire Strikes Back, watch Star Wars

00:28:31   and then Empire Strikes Back.

00:28:32   I'm not gonna add reservations.

00:28:34   Oh, but also here's some reservations

00:28:36   about the Empire Strikes Back.

00:28:37   I'm gonna add no reservations.

00:28:38   There is no nothing to say about it.

00:28:40   So I would say that qualifies.

00:28:42   The only definitions are the pedantic one

00:28:43   in which nothing qualifies for anybody

00:28:45   Or the reasonable definition in which there's tons of things that I really like.

00:28:48   If you want to hear me, things that I really like, listen to the incomparable.

00:28:52   Very, very often on that show I talk about things I really like.

00:28:54   You know, from the video game journey, television shows, movies, books.

00:29:00   We do talk about asterisks if you want to call it that, but that doesn't mean we don't

00:29:04   love them.

00:29:05   So I think this question is not a good question.

00:29:08   That's more than an asterisk, more than a reservation.

00:29:11   I think that was a great question because of the answer it got.

00:29:13   Yes

00:29:15   Complaining about the question. I'm moving us sure of anybody like is there anything even we ask you the you chose it

00:29:20   Is there anything you two like uncritically without caveats reservation or asterisks?

00:29:24   I think if you're honest with yourselves you have to say that's not true for either of you either

00:29:27   I mean, I think the chat room offered up a number of good options your kids your wife your dog, Long Island journey

00:29:34   Those are BS questions. You got reservations about your wife and your kids. Don't say you don't ice cream

00:29:40   If you are if you think your spouse does not have any asterisks you are either newly married or willfully

00:29:46   Naive because everybody has asterisks everybody

00:29:50   I like where I am. What can I say?

00:29:53   Yeah, but there are always asked what is asked is like the tiniest little thing, you know

00:29:58   It's like could something be a little bit different. Of course, of course always I don't even know where to go from here

00:30:05   Like and especially kids like no my child is perfect. Yes, lots of parents think that mm-hmm

00:30:09   Maybe a little bit less screaming?

00:30:13   Like three seconds less screaming in a lifetime of screaming.

00:30:17   Would you accept that?

00:30:18   Say yes, I would accept three seconds less screaming.

00:30:20   Well, that's an asterisk.

00:30:21   There you go.

00:30:24   Maybe if that poo hadn't exploded out the side of the diaper that one time when I had

00:30:27   a new car, would you – oh, it was an asterisk.

00:30:29   Now you don't love your children because you didn't want the poo to come out the

00:30:32   side of the diaper and go all over your new car seats.

00:30:34   Oh, that's amazing.

00:30:36   All right.

00:30:37   We got to move on.

00:30:38   We're never gonna get through this.

00:30:40   - That's amazing.

00:30:41   - Let's see, what was next?

00:30:42   I have so many frickin' tabs open.

00:30:44   I must be John Syracuse.

00:30:45   Edward Lovell writes in,

00:30:48   "What podcast do you currently listen to

00:30:50   "and would recommend?"

00:30:51   I listen to a ton of podcasts,

00:30:53   but there's a couple that I would recommend.

00:30:55   The aforementioned "Dubai Friday" is excellent.

00:30:58   I will pitch one of my, or a couple of my co-host shows.

00:31:03   I think that "Reconsolable Differences" is phenomenal,

00:31:07   and so is Under the Radar, but I will also pitch a couple others very quickly.

00:31:12   If you wanted to hear a smart person talk about conservative politics, which you may

00:31:19   or may not want, the Ben Shapiro show is very interesting and very good.

00:31:24   I don't listen to every episode by any means.

00:31:26   It's like 45 minutes and it's pretty much every weekday, but when I have time, usually

00:31:30   about once a week I'll catch it, and I typically deeply, deeply disagree with the things he

00:31:36   things, but nevertheless it is interesting. I will also say that wheel bearings is neutral

00:31:44   by people who actually know what they're talking about.

00:31:46   Who would want to listen to that? Yeah, I know, right? And then 20,000 hertz

00:31:51   is also very good. Think 99% invisible, but specifically around sound. So those are just

00:31:56   some selections from my extraordinarily long list of podcasts that I listen to. John, since

00:32:02   I've been tagging Marco first more often. Let's go to you next.

00:32:06   >> I have a strong recommendation for Roderick on the Line, which I love.

00:32:11   Flophouse, obviously, my probably oldest recommendation. That show is still going.

00:32:18   Obviously, Hello Internet and Cortex, the pair of shows both involving CGP Grey. Those

00:32:26   are great. What else have we got? I'm scrolling through Overcast to look at -- I have way

00:32:31   way too many things in our chasm scrolling through there.

00:32:35   Debug, which I don't know if it's still ongoing, but the back catalog of debug is great.

00:32:40   It's a tech show where they talk to lots of important people in tech.

00:32:43   You should definitely check that out.

00:32:45   And there's tons more, but I think that's a good place to get started.

00:32:49   Marco.

00:32:50   You guys have already mentioned pretty much everything I was going to say.

00:32:53   The usuals, Dubai Friday, Hello Internet, Cortex, Roderick on the line.

00:33:00   In the tech world, again you've covered many good ones, I would also add Upgrade on Reel

00:33:05   AFM with Jason Sinell and Mike Rowley.

00:33:07   That is probably my favorite tech show.

00:33:11   It's just really, really great.

00:33:14   So yeah, otherwise you guys pretty much covered it.

00:33:16   Yeah, 99.PI, you know, and what I love about, I mean I could obviously talk about podcasts

00:33:20   forever so I will try not to, but what I love about this is that none of us mentioned shows

00:33:25   that were like the biggest podcasts in the world.

00:33:27   99.PI is probably the biggest one we mentioned, but when people think podcasting, they so

00:33:32   often will make an assumption like, "Everybody listens to This American Life," right, you

00:33:36   know, stuff like that. But the fact is there isn't any podcast out there that everybody

00:33:40   listens to. And like the world of mass market or very, very popular podcasts is still actually

00:33:47   fairly diversified. And there's a lot of people who listen to a lot of podcasts who don't

00:33:53   listen to any of those big ones. So this is, it's just part of what I love about podcasting

00:33:57   is like it's so incredibly diverse and specialized

00:34:00   that like I can look at so many podcasts

00:34:02   and there are so many amazing podcasts out there,

00:34:06   but I don't need to spend any time listening to things

00:34:08   that aren't like really interesting to me

00:34:11   and that aren't specialized to my interests

00:34:14   because there's so much that is

00:34:15   and that's just part of what I love about podcasting.

00:34:18   - Yeah, and you know, my overcast list is huge.

00:34:21   I subscribe to tons of things.

00:34:22   I was trying to give recommendations

00:34:23   that maybe people might not go for,

00:34:25   like a, you know, this one of the reasons, you know, I didn't recommend the talk show

00:34:29   because I assume you know that show exists and it's good and you should totally listen to it.

00:34:31   Like I didn't recommend This American Life because I'm assuming you know that show exists and it's

00:34:34   good and you should listen to it, right? Trying to find these slightly more obscure corners. But

00:34:39   that's the other thing I like about podcasts. I subscribe to way more podcasts than I

00:34:44   faithfully listen to. Like I'm not a podcast completionist. I have tons of descriptions,

00:34:48   a few shows I keep up with very religiously, but a lot of shows I let age and then go through five

00:34:52   episodes at a time and a lot of shows I just pick and choose from. That's the best thing.

00:34:56   Not only do you not have to like, "Oh, there's only five podcasts that everyone listens to."

00:35:00   You should find a podcast that you really like. And sometimes you find a podcast and you only

00:35:07   have to listen to the episodes that you really like. Even like The Incomparable, if they do

00:35:11   an episode reviewing something you don't care about, skip that episode. They're standalone.

00:35:15   If they do a thing about a TV show that you didn't watch and you're not interested in,

00:35:18   fine. Just pick and choose. It's the beauty of podcasting.

00:35:21   But you should listen to every episode of our show, obviously.

00:35:24   Oh, yeah, obviously.

00:35:25   Of course.

00:35:26   I mean, how could you not?

00:35:27   Regular Language writes in, "What do you think about the current state of Swift?

00:35:31   I would like to hear what Jon and Marco have to say about, I guess, Casey, a rant about

00:35:38   Swift opens."

00:35:39   Oh, I think there's new lines missing here.

00:35:41   Basically, what do you guys think and maybe me talk about Swift open source?

00:35:45   So I will, I guess, round this out at the end.

00:35:48   So let's start with Marco and then go to Jon.

00:35:51   - Honestly, I don't pay that much attention

00:35:54   to what's going on in Swift.

00:35:55   I know I'm supposed to, I know I should.

00:35:58   Overcast contains some Swift code that I added

00:36:01   to try to teach myself the language and stuff,

00:36:04   but I'm still writing most code in Objective-C,

00:36:06   and it's not really out of a judgment of Swift

00:36:09   so much as it's just a pragmatism that I still don't see

00:36:14   a lot of motivation for me to switch.

00:36:17   I recognize that I should, but I, in practice, don't.

00:36:21   John?

00:36:22   - This is too open-ended of a question.

00:36:24   I would have never have picked it.

00:36:25   Swift seems like it's chugging along.

00:36:27   I do keep up with the things that are going on in it.

00:36:29   It's still got challenges,

00:36:32   but it's making slow, steady progress,

00:36:34   so I think Swift is moving in the right direction

00:36:36   at varying speeds.

00:36:37   And what do we have to say about C?

00:36:42   - No, no, no, no, that's not C, the language.

00:36:44   I think basically the question was,

00:36:46   what do you guys have to say about Swift

00:36:48   and what do I have to say specifically

00:36:49   about Swift open source?

00:36:50   So-- - All right, well, go ahead.

00:36:52   - Yeah, I think your summary of Swift is good and brief

00:36:55   and I stand by it.

00:36:57   Swift open source is a double-edged sword.

00:36:58   I think that the problem that I have with Swift open source

00:37:03   is that it seems like a lot of the really, really,

00:37:07   really academic, like,

00:37:09   I'm trying to think of a way to say this

00:37:11   without being pejorative,

00:37:12   but people who are much more interested

00:37:15   the academic side of programming languages seem to be the ones that are most vocal and

00:37:19   most interested to participate on the mailing lists and things of that nature.

00:37:23   Where someone like myself, which is not to say I'm at the same caliber as a super academic,

00:37:27   but someone like myself who I like to think of as, "I'm a reasonably smart guy, but I

00:37:33   don't really have any interest in following the intricacies of what's going on in the

00:37:37   mailing list.

00:37:38   I don't really have any interest in arguing about different pitches that have been made

00:37:43   via the mailing list."

00:37:44   I just want to get crap done, man.

00:37:47   And to me, I feel like Swift open source, it feels like, from an outsider's point of

00:37:54   view, that maybe it could use a little more stern direction from Apple to prevent the

00:38:00   kind of meandering and the kind of, I don't know, language features that I find to be

00:38:05   really, really silly and not terribly helpful for actually just shipping products.

00:38:11   And that's where I kind of get a little frustrated.

00:38:13   But it's easy for me to throw stones from outside the glass house, right?

00:38:18   And really, if I wanted to effect change, what I should be doing is participating on

00:38:22   the darn mailing list that I'm lamenting.

00:38:24   I'm not sure you should be doing that, because I'm going to put this out there.

00:38:27   Language design is a different skill than being a programmer and using that language.

00:38:32   And so I think it is entirely appropriate that the list where people are designing the

00:38:36   languages looks weird to someone who's like, "I just want to write my programs."

00:38:40   Like, you make the language and give it to me.

00:38:42   Like, they don't need to cross over.

00:38:44   I think, with evolution, I've seen a lot of languages

00:38:47   on mailing lists, and switch evolution is above average,

00:38:51   believe it or not.

00:38:53   And maybe if you look on the outside,

00:38:54   this is the first time you follow the development

00:38:56   of any language, it can look like dominated by academics

00:38:59   and weird and chaotic and a lot of bike shedding,

00:39:01   but in the grand scheme of things, they are above average.

00:39:04   And just coming so early to say,

00:39:07   look, we're gonna have releases,

00:39:08   we're gonna exclude things from them,

00:39:09   And then, you know, like there's going to be people discussing things in the list,

00:39:12   even though they say they're excluded from Swift 3 or Swift 4, like, but in

00:39:15   general, I think they're pretty well behaved and I do want essentially language

00:39:19   nerds or people like people with the skill, the language design skill and,

00:39:23   you know, RPG problems or whatever.

00:39:24   To be designing the language rather than having a bunch of people who just want

00:39:29   to use the language, throwing out the first idea that pops into their head that

00:39:32   they think might make their, their night, like beginning language designers.

00:39:36   Like I've been programming for 20 years and I think a language would be cool

00:39:39   Well, how many languages have you designed?

00:39:41   Have you tried doing that?

00:39:42   What does it actually turn out to be?

00:39:44   I like language design as a separate skill being developed among people who just do that,

00:39:50   and seeing them do their thing definitely does look weird, but I endorse it.

00:39:55   And part of why I have not adopted Swift more is that the idea of investing my time into

00:40:03   a language that is still very much a beta is a huge turnoff for me.

00:40:08   I do not, I have no interest in participating

00:40:11   in the design of this language.

00:40:13   I have no interest in beta testing this language for anybody

00:40:16   in the same way like, I don't wanna beta test

00:40:17   brakes on my car.

00:40:19   You know, I wanna get the final brakes, thank you,

00:40:21   and I want them to work and I don't wanna ever

00:40:22   have to think about them or I never want them

00:40:24   to flake out or fail or cause me undue work.

00:40:27   - Sounds like a test loaner, you don't wanna

00:40:29   beta test the brakes, they just thought

00:40:30   it sent us new firmware for your brakes last night

00:40:32   while you were sleeping.

00:40:33   (laughing)

00:40:34   - Like for me, like I, especially like every summer

00:40:37   when during beta season when like all the new stuff comes out and I see all the iOS

00:40:41   developers I know complaining about something that Swift broke, I am very happy to not be

00:40:46   very reliant on it right now. And you know, because the fact is like I'm an independent

00:40:51   developer, I don't have a lot of time. I like and the time I have to spend coding, I have

00:40:57   to spend it very wisely. And the most frustrating thing for me, which is true of many people,

00:41:03   is fighting with my tools.

00:41:05   And so any language or part of my developer tool chain,

00:41:09   I'm going to try to minimize reasons

00:41:12   that I would have to fight with it,

00:41:14   or the amount of work it's going to require from me to use.

00:41:18   And Swift, while it does look like a fairly,

00:41:22   I'm sure it will be good once it's done for me,

00:41:26   right now, the reality of using Swift

00:41:28   is still a lot of overhead and a lot of dealing

00:41:32   the changes as they come and dealing with weird things breaking sometimes and I just

00:41:36   want to wait until it's all settled before I invest heavily into it because I have zero

00:41:41   interest in being an early adopter for things like this. All I want is for it to work so

00:41:45   I can spend my time in other ways.

00:41:47   You know, I will say that there are certainly annoyances and I can't legitimately argue

00:41:53   with anything that you've said, but it feels like it's gotten a lot better over the last,

00:41:58   you know, six to twelve months.

00:42:00   Oh yeah, it has.

00:42:01   - It has.

00:42:02   - And the dabbling I've done on the Xcode 9 beta,

00:42:06   by and large, I mean, it's a beta, of course,

00:42:09   but by and large, it looks really solid.

00:42:10   And so I think, and of course,

00:42:12   you would say this every year, right?

00:42:14   Now is the time to dive in, Marco.

00:42:16   It's all better than it ever was.

00:42:17   And you know, it's the year Linux on the desktop, right?

00:42:20   It'll always be better the next year.

00:42:21   But it is not nearly as scary now as it once was.

00:42:25   But there's still dragons back there from time to time.

00:42:29   - And I would also love to use Swift on the server.

00:42:31   That's one thing that has me very interested in learning it

00:42:35   'cause the idea of learning one language

00:42:37   that I can use in both places

00:42:38   is incredibly attractive to me.

00:42:40   'Cause that would be a great use of,

00:42:43   if I'm gonna learn more languages and master more frameworks

00:42:47   being able to use the same one in both places

00:42:49   basically makes it twice as valuable to me.

00:42:51   So I would love that.

00:42:52   But it's all just so early.

00:42:54   And to have basics like concurrency not worked out yet

00:42:59   is, I just, I need--

00:43:01   Well, yes and no, right? Like it's just as worked out as it is in Objective-C, because

00:43:05   you still have GCD and whatnot. It's just that—

00:43:07   Well, when I'm saying "server," I mean Linux, though.

00:43:10   Well, okay, fair. But my point is just that, like, concurrency, I agree with you, should

00:43:15   be worked out in a much better way, but it's not like we're handcuffed now. It's just

00:43:19   that it's the existing GCD API—again, maybe not on the server, but at least on the client—it's

00:43:26   It's the existing GCD API and it actually is a lot nicer in a lot of ways, but there

00:43:31   should be something like, you know, everyone is calling for C#'s async await, so we'll

00:43:36   see what happens.

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00:45:30   David Klein writes, "About two years ago,

00:45:35   "you discussed Women in Tech and podcasting

00:45:37   "and even exchange hosts.

00:45:39   "How do you feel today regarding Women in Tech?"

00:45:42   This is a very good question,

00:45:44   which stresses me out because I feel like I'm going to step on some landmine here.

00:45:50   But that being said, I feel like we have made, we, not the three of us, like we as a community,

00:45:59   have made a fair bit of positive strides, but still have a almost equal amount of improvement

00:46:07   left to make.

00:46:09   And I feel like people are paying a lot more attention to the fact that there's so much

00:46:14   sexism in tech, and it's such a crummy place to be a woman. And I think the easiest example

00:46:19   of this is people, like, regular people knowing what a cesspool Uber is/was, and regular people

00:46:27   deciding to use Lyft instead of Uber, which, quick aside, I used Lyft in Chicago when Erin

00:46:35   and I were on our 10-year wedding anniversary, and it was great. Worked great. No different

00:46:41   than Uber, and so I highly recommend it. But anyway, so we still have a ton of room. Like,

00:46:47   it's one of those things where we have taken like the tiniest, littlest step forward, but

00:46:51   there's still like 85,000 miles in front of us, so it's almost imperceptible. Marco?

00:46:55   - I basically agree. I mean, I unfortunately am not an expert in this topic. You know,

00:47:03   few men in tech are. You know, that's not a coincidence. It's a huge problem, and we

00:47:10   We still have so, so long to go, but we are talking about it now way more than it used

00:47:18   to be talked about.

00:47:20   So even though I don't have the knowledge to know whether it's actually making progress

00:47:26   really, I have no idea.

00:47:28   I would guess it's making slow progress.

00:47:31   But we are talking about it and a lot more people, ourselves included, are much more

00:47:37   more conscientious of this being an issue than we used to be.

00:47:41   And that has to help too.

00:47:44   And there's obviously a lot more that we can all do

00:47:47   and that we need to all do, but I do think that awareness

00:47:52   is way better than it was and that will slowly

00:47:56   start helping this problem.

00:47:58   - Yeah, that's like the first stage of all these things

00:48:01   is the very long process of getting people to be aware

00:48:05   that this is an issue at all.

00:48:06   what's the issue, what is the problem,

00:48:08   is this a thing that exists?

00:48:09   And that takes a really long time.

00:48:11   It's kind of depressing to me because my childhood,

00:48:13   like I felt like the whole,

00:48:16   one of the previous names of a larger version of this,

00:48:18   of the women's lib movement back in the 60s and 70s

00:48:22   and even to the 80s, was also in that stage of like,

00:48:25   hey, raise awareness, like women's liberation,

00:48:28   what do women need to be liberated from?

00:48:29   What do you mean, right?

00:48:31   I felt like we went through that.

00:48:34   And then like that knowledge was lost somehow.

00:48:38   And now here we are back in the tech sector,

00:48:40   which is a microcosm of the larger world.

00:48:42   It's like, do we have to relearn that sexism exists?

00:48:45   Apparently the answer is yes.

00:48:46   And we're learning it better and more thoroughly.

00:48:48   And with, I think, a clearer eyed picture

00:48:52   and not accepting as many limitations

00:48:55   as the previous feminist movements

00:48:57   and women's liberation and all that other stuff.

00:48:59   But I still very strongly feel

00:49:01   we are in the awareness phase for everybody. Like for, you know, for me as well, right?

00:49:06   And I do see some concrete signs of progress. I find myself seeing, I mean, from my perspective,

00:49:13   a lot of what I see is like, who's speaking at this tech conference? I see and watch and hear

00:49:19   about and get forwarded to me more really good talks by women at tech conferences,

00:49:24   as the circles I travel in, in my Twitter or whatever, than I did several years ago.

00:49:29   And I feel like that is progress, probably just progress in my awareness that that is a thing.

00:49:34   And also progress in the people I follow forwarding me those things. And, you know,

00:49:39   like you just said, like the fact that there can even be a story that has any real world

00:49:44   consequences to a company about, "Hey, this company is run by a bunch of sexist jerks."

00:49:48   And that actually like is, A, a thing we hear about, and B, something, anything, literally

00:49:52   anything happens about it. Maybe not the right thing, maybe not the best things, but something

00:49:56   happens, like if one extra person deletes their app, like that is a tiny bit of progress.

00:50:02   But yeah, that's pretty much how I feel how it's going. And about us specifically on the show,

00:50:08   like we're still, we still talk about it, we still discuss it, we still try to

00:50:12   do what we can in the ways that we can, you know, it's a continuing struggle.

00:50:17   Yep. Robin Kristofferson writes in, "Which, if any, of the many rumored changes to the new iPhone

00:50:23   would actually make you decide not to upgrade if it comes to pass.

00:50:27   I'm gonna go on a very small rant about this. I don't understand people who say,

00:50:34   and I can't think of a specific example of, "Oh, actually the Touch Bar is a great example.

00:50:39   I will never like the Touch Bar and I will never buy a Mac that has a Touch Bar."

00:50:43   That to me just doesn't make sense, because it stands to reason that at least for portable Macs,

00:50:50   the touch bar is going to be the future probably across the line. It may not be for five years or something like that,

00:50:55   but it will probably be the future. And even if the touch bar, if you think that's a crummy example,

00:50:59   it doesn't matter. My point is, like, just get on the bus.

00:51:02   The bus is pulling away, get on the bus. And you may not love it,

00:51:07   but get on the bus. Because what's the alternative? Go to Windows? Ha, have fun. And so to me,

00:51:12   there may be something that I don't like about the new iPhone. So for the sake of example,

00:51:17   I'm skeptical that I would terribly enjoy the face unlock and I would you know and I suspect I wouldn't miss touch ID

00:51:24   but I mean I will certainly give it a shot and

00:51:28   I will certainly give it a shot and if it ends up that I like touch ID better

00:51:33   Well, then that's a stinky part of the new iPhone, but everything else will be amazing. So it'll all even itself out

00:51:38   So I don't really and I understand the question, but I don't really understand this question

00:51:44   You think the narrower view they're asking would make you not want to upgrade and when I saw this question

00:51:48   I thought about like touch ID on the back

00:51:50   If they couldn't if they can't get the touch ID under the screen for this generation

00:51:55   but we know for a fact was other phones do this that

00:51:58   Fingerprint sensing under a screen is a technology that exists that just you know wasn't up to Apple's caliber yet for whatever reason I might

00:52:06   Say if I was if it was my upgrade year, which it isn't by the way I might say oh

00:52:10   "Oh, I'm not gonna upgrade to this phone.

00:52:13   I'll wait till next year when hopefully they'll have that sorted out, or we even wait to the

00:52:17   next generation because you know I have no problem waiting."

00:52:19   It's not like Casey was saying, "Oh, I'm never gonna buy a Touch Bar."

00:52:22   Obviously, eventually you're gonna have to get a new phone, and eventually I would choose

00:52:25   to get an iPhone.

00:52:27   But specifically, "Oh, if they make a new form factor and it's the first model year

00:52:30   and they had to make weird compromises and touch ideas in the back," even if it's just

00:52:33   as simple as, "They put Touch ID in the back, but I've never used Touch ID in the back,

00:52:37   I'm not sure I like it.

00:52:38   I'd rather let a bunch of my friends who I know really well buy this phone and tell me about it so that the next year

00:52:43   I'll know whether I think I'll like it or like just play with them to start whatever. So yes, there are lots of weird things

00:52:48   Involving the phone that would make me decide not to upgrade

00:52:51   But I don't think there's many things that would make me decide I'm never going to buy an iPhone again

00:52:56   And that's that's a different question

00:52:58   Yeah, I mean I I think pretty similarly. I mean look we all know I'm gonna buy it regardless

00:53:04   So, why even bother?

00:53:07   I mean, I think the answer is,

00:53:10   I'm gonna do what I always do,

00:53:12   which is I'm going to buy the new thing immediately,

00:53:16   and then I'll complain about anything

00:53:17   that's worse about it.

00:53:19   - Fair enough.

00:53:20   That's typically how these things tend to go.

00:53:23   I did not want to answer this question,

00:53:27   because this is another example of where I don't care.

00:53:31   But somebody, and I think that person's name

00:53:33   might be John Syracuse has decided we should answer this question so Stephen

00:53:37   Sandhoff writes tabs or spaces I honestly don't even have the faintest

00:53:41   idea what my editors set to it's whatever the default for Xcode is don't

00:53:45   care you're a monster don't even know I don't even know just pick one actually I

00:53:52   can say the same thing so I know what it is in textmate but for my iOS code and

00:53:57   Xcode I actually have no idea which one it is but in I will say in textmate it's

00:54:01   spaces, but I, this is the kind of, like,

00:54:04   I tweeted about this a few weeks ago, like,

00:54:06   it doesn't really matter because good tools

00:54:09   let you switch between one or the other

00:54:11   with like one command, so it's,

00:54:13   it really doesn't matter at all.

00:54:15   - No, no, no, no, that's not something

00:54:17   a tab user would say, it totally matters,

00:54:19   let me tell you why.

00:54:21   So first of all, my answer on tabs versus spaces is spaces,

00:54:25   and the reason I say spaces is because spaces

00:54:27   are the same size visually everywhere.

00:54:30   But the whole point in tabs, I thought, is that I can choose to have my tabs be a thousand

00:54:36   width.

00:54:37   Right, okay, yep.

00:54:38   So now tabs, now it's like, okay, well tabs are semantic, indent here, but don't tell

00:54:42   me how big it has to be.

00:54:43   The problem with that is that I think good formatting in most, not maybe, some, let's

00:54:53   just say, in some programming languages, good formatting needs to be done, has instances

00:54:59   in which you want to indent by less than one indentation level to align things.

00:55:08   And if you use spaces everywhere, there is no ambiguity and you can make it look like

00:55:14   how you want it to look like.

00:55:16   If you use tabs, some joker is going to set their tab to two and someone else is going

00:55:21   to have it set to four and someone's going to have it set to eight and the part and the

00:55:24   line where you use tabs but then use spaces to align a bunch of things is going to look

00:55:28   crazy pants.

00:55:29   So spaces is the correct answer, but I'm forced to use tabs at work and have for many years.

00:55:33   And so if you're a working programmer, you got to do what you got to do with the actual

00:55:36   answer of spaces.

00:55:38   And Chris Lattner agrees with me, so there you go.

00:55:41   And that's all that really matters.

00:55:42   I bet that's going to be what eventually drives you to quit your job.

00:55:45   Like eventually, one day, you're going to hit that tab key for the last time, and you're

00:55:50   like, that's it, I'm done.

00:55:51   No, I mean, you still hit the tab key even when it does spaces.

00:55:54   But work changed both my brace style and the indenting character, but this is what it means

00:55:59   to be a working programmer.

00:56:00   It's too far.

00:56:01   Wait, what is your preferred brace style?

00:56:04   Many years ago, I used BSD style opening and closing in the same column for basically my

00:56:11   entire career up to like maybe ten years ago.

00:56:13   And then I forcibly switched to K&R.

00:56:17   No cuddled elses.

00:56:18   Come on, people.

00:56:19   I'm a K&R person myself.

00:56:21   You know, I used to--first of all, I had no idea those were the two--like, I didn't know

00:56:25   the names for those two styles, but I used to be violently, devoutly in favor of--what

00:56:31   did you say, BSD, where all of the opening and closing--

00:56:34   Maybe I'm getting you wrong, it might be Allman.

00:56:35   It's the one where the opening curly is underneath the "I" and "if."

00:56:39   Right, right, right.

00:56:40   That's the way I used to be, just--and I was passionately about it, like, almost as bad

00:56:45   as I am about people who say "jif."

00:56:47   Like I passionately believed that you have to put it under "I" and those monsters that

00:56:53   say "jif" that also put the opening brace at the end of the line are just without help.

00:56:59   And over time, similar story, I think because I started writing a fair bit of JavaScript,

00:57:04   I ended up kind of switching to the other style where you have, you know, if something

00:57:10   open brace, new line.

00:57:12   I think it's an important part in every programmer who doesn't work for themselves in a single-person

00:57:16   shop in their careers is becoming not just multi-language fluent, but becoming able to—and

00:57:22   you work on open source projects, you're forced into this too—becoming able to write code in

00:57:26   the style demanded by the thing that you're doing, whether it's a job or an open source project or

00:57:30   whatever. You can't—I mean, you can be precious about it and have a preferred thing, but you have

00:57:34   to be able to get the job done in whatever language or formatting that is dictated by the—you just

00:57:40   have to. It's just practically—and in the end, I was also pretty strongly about opening Curly

00:57:45   under the little eye and I still think it's the style that makes more sense but you know

00:57:51   you get over it a few years of using K&R and you're like okay like it's fine and it's actually

00:57:56   difficult if you get into a groove to switch back and forth like you have to mode switch

00:58:01   between them you'll just your fingers will you'll find them doing the thing that they

00:58:04   do and you have to switch back but like that's life that's programming for you.

00:58:08   No actually the reason why I use K&R style is that I used to use the brace under the

00:58:13   the eye, but like in college, and like as I was teaching

00:58:15   myself how to program and going through college,

00:58:17   like I used that style, and then my first job used

00:58:20   strictly KNR style, and they just like broke me

00:58:23   of that habit, and then that became my style.

00:58:26   Anyway, we can all agree, tabs versus spaces,

00:58:30   it doesn't really matter, but the right answer is spaces,

00:58:33   unless you use two spaces, in which case you're an animal.

00:58:37   - I think I could probably get behind that.

00:58:39   Spencer Holbrook writes in, "What low-level part

00:58:41   Apple stack would you like to see replaced next hfs+ to APFS objective C to Swift open GL to metal etc

00:58:48   I think I'm most anxious and most interested in hfs+ to APFS

00:58:54   And I can't think of another example off top my head. I'm sure John you'll probably have one

00:58:58   But none of these are really rev my engine that much. Sorry John Marco

00:59:04   They're asking you what you want to see replaced next they listed a bunch of ones. They're already doing oh, so following all of that yes

00:59:10   - Oh, yeah, wish list.

00:59:14   - I don't even know, I'd have to think about that.

00:59:16   I'm not sure, to be honest.

00:59:18   I'll pass on this one.

00:59:18   Marco, what do you think?

00:59:20   - Yeah, I'm sure John's gonna have the best answers here,

00:59:22   but my-- - Yeah, exactly.

00:59:23   - Thank you for going to me first,

00:59:24   I don't have to follow him.

00:59:26   My boring answers are basically, I have two,

00:59:28   it's like, if the API framework,

00:59:32   or if the UI framework is the correct level

00:59:35   for this question, I would love to see

00:59:37   what surpasses AppKit on the Mac, if ever.

00:59:40   - Oh, that's a good one actually.

00:59:42   That's very good.

00:59:42   - That's not low level.

00:59:44   - So if you go a little bit lower level,

00:59:45   what I would also like to see,

00:59:47   it's another thing on the Mac actually,

00:59:49   I would like to see Mac sandboxing

00:59:50   completely rethought and matured.

00:59:53   And rethinking of the Mac security model with the new,

00:59:56   so like basically bringing a more iOS-like

01:00:00   sandboxing environment to the Mac.

01:00:02   So to do things like, you could knowingly safely

01:00:07   install an application and then delete that application

01:00:10   and know that everything that goes with it gets deleted.

01:00:12   Know that it can only write to and read from

01:00:14   certain directories that are easy to manage

01:00:17   and isolated from other things and can't,

01:00:19   like every app that you install as you, the user account,

01:00:22   can't read your entire user directory.

01:00:24   And they started down this path of sandboxing,

01:00:26   whenever that was, like eight years ago,

01:00:28   and they did like the most bare bones basic version

01:00:31   and then just stopped and they'd never matured it.

01:00:35   And because of the version they did

01:00:38   and the various shortcomings it had,

01:00:40   it basically made it so that most apps

01:00:42   could not be reasonably sandboxed

01:00:44   if they did anything cool at all.

01:00:46   And I bet there's a better balance to be struck.

01:00:49   Now in the modern day with what we know,

01:00:52   with where the software world is, where the economics

01:00:55   and where the ecosystem has gone since then,

01:00:57   I would love to see a more modern,

01:01:00   more secure version of sandboxing on the Mac

01:01:04   that brings it closer to iOS in those security

01:01:06   and user assuredness ways,

01:01:09   but that still has the power of Mac software

01:01:12   available in various new clever ways.

01:01:16   I know that's a very hard thing to solve,

01:01:18   but there's also, A, I think we need to solve it,

01:01:21   and B, I think there's massive gains to be had there

01:01:23   when it is solved.

01:01:25   - All right, John.

01:01:26   - So there's probably, there's a bunch of stuff

01:01:29   all the way down to the kernel itself

01:01:30   that I can list here, but the reason I put this in

01:01:32   was 'cause I don't have any really good answers

01:01:34   for low level stuff that I'm dying for,

01:01:36   except for one, as actually mentioned in here,

01:01:38   they said, you know, HFS to APFS,

01:01:40   Objective-C to Swift, OpenGL to Metal.

01:01:43   The OpenGL to Metal one is the one

01:01:45   I actually have objections to.

01:01:46   I don't, like, I understand Metal,

01:01:48   and it's a good thing to have,

01:01:49   and Apple is heavily behind it,

01:01:52   but I think Apple should still have

01:01:54   a world-class OpenGL implementation.

01:01:56   And I know that's a tough sell,

01:01:57   but it's like, what do we even need that for?

01:01:59   We're all in on Metal, Metal is the future,

01:02:02   blah, blah, blah.

01:02:03   I don't think you should get rid of Metal, but OpenGL or Vulkan or whatever is still

01:02:09   a thing and it is still worth Apple not just maintaining but like, you know, advance it.

01:02:19   Like either don't have it at all.

01:02:20   It's kind of like Flash.

01:02:21   Like look, if you think it's viable to have a web browser without Flash, don't support

01:02:24   it at all.

01:02:25   Don't just say, "Oh, our Flash implementation is slow and so people won't use it and they'll

01:02:28   migrate to H." Just don't support it at all.

01:02:30   Don't support at all. And if you think you can't, you know, oh, we can't drop OpenGL

01:02:34   We have to have it our whole a West Run. So well, then make a good version of it

01:02:37   Like I was this came up recently in the article. I think Casey read was he retweeted it

01:02:41   But I read earlier about the dolphin

01:02:43   Game cube emulator and all interesting technical problems Casey. You can have a show note there put that one link in the show notes

01:02:51   It's a good article

01:02:53   lots of good articles on that and it goes through some fun technical details and then towards the bottom of this really nice article it

01:02:59   and here's a section for Mac users.

01:03:01   None of this is relevant to you because your OpenGL stack

01:03:03   is a piece of crap and none of the features

01:03:05   that we even talked about even exist

01:03:06   in your OpenGL implementation,

01:03:08   let alone exist in our performance.

01:03:09   So screw you guys.

01:03:10   And it's like, look, Apple, it's embarrassing.

01:03:13   I wish I want them, and what do we lose by that?

01:03:16   We don't get to have a cool GameCube emulator

01:03:18   unless we boot into Windows or Linux for crying out, Linux.

01:03:22   So I hope that Apple gets their act together with OpenGL.

01:03:27   Either don't support it at all

01:03:29   and then figure out what you have to do to make your computer still viable or actually

01:03:32   support it and be awesome.

01:03:35   That was not what I expected, but that was a pretty good answer.

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01:04:55   (upbeat music)

01:04:58   - JC Calhoun writes, "How about an update

01:05:00   "on how the Overcast advertising is working out?"

01:05:03   So John, no, I'm just kidding.

01:05:05   What do you think, Marco?

01:05:07   - I mean, the short answer is it's great.

01:05:09   I mean, there's not a whole lot to say on it.

01:05:12   This is, so they're talking about like how I switched

01:05:14   a few months ago to selling my own direct ads,

01:05:18   and now they're entirely for podcasts.

01:05:20   At first it was like for podcasts and/or websites.

01:05:24   The podcasts have been buying them so much

01:05:27   that I actually recently stopped selling them

01:05:29   for anything that's not a podcast.

01:05:31   The capability's still there if I choose to use it later,

01:05:33   but I don't think I will need to for a while.

01:05:36   I worked out some various pricing

01:05:40   and inventory level tweaks over the last few months,

01:05:43   just working out how should these things be priced,

01:05:46   how many should I have in each category,

01:05:48   what should the categories even be.

01:05:50   But I think it's pretty stable now.

01:05:52   And it's making good money, it's making something like

01:05:56   10 times what I was making from Google ad,

01:05:59   whatever their ad mob, that's what it is,

01:06:01   yeah, the mobile ad thing.

01:06:02   So it's going great.

01:06:03   And as long as this continues to sell at all reasonably,

01:06:08   I don't see myself changing the model anytime soon.

01:06:11   - From your analytics or whatever you've got

01:06:14   running against these ads,

01:06:16   does it seem like they're working?

01:06:17   Like obviously they're working in the sense

01:06:19   that you keep selling them,

01:06:20   but are they working in the sense that it seems like

01:06:22   they're pushing subscriptions to shows and all that?

01:06:25   - Yeah, I mean, I have that info and I share that,

01:06:27   like, the advertisers, when you buy an ad,

01:06:30   they see in their little control panel on the website

01:06:33   how many impressions, how many taps,

01:06:35   and how many subscriptions it has gotten.

01:06:38   They don't see anything else,

01:06:39   but they see those three numbers, and that's all.

01:06:41   Honestly, I don't collect anything else.

01:06:42   That's all I collect.

01:06:43   So, and that plays into how I price them.

01:06:46   Like, I try to keep the cost per new subscriber

01:06:49   within a certain range.

01:06:50   The challenge in pricing these ads is not trying to get people to buy them, it's trying

01:06:56   to avoid the temptation to raise prices like crazy because they're selling out frequently.

01:07:02   And it's hard for me to know like what should a new listener be worth?

01:07:08   What ring should I keep this price in?

01:07:10   The way I've been pricing it, I've been keeping it between one and two dollars for most categories.

01:07:14   But certain categories, like I recently separated out business podcasts into their own category.

01:07:20   'Cause I ran the numbers of what is a listener to,

01:07:24   sorry, what's a listener to ATP worth?

01:07:26   And if you've run the numbers over the course

01:07:28   of certain time spans or a year or two,

01:07:30   it ends up being like five bucks, something like that.

01:07:34   And so I thought if I keep the price

01:07:36   of between one and two dollars,

01:07:37   that keeps it pretty good,

01:07:39   pretty compelling for most people.

01:07:41   But certain categories like business,

01:07:44   business podcasts are huge, first of all.

01:07:46   Like that's a huge market for business tips and tricks

01:07:49   and writing books and everything,

01:07:50   and many of them monetize not just by ads,

01:07:53   but by selling you books, ebooks, conferences, seminars,

01:07:58   stuff like that, so they might have

01:08:01   a very different valuation of what

01:08:03   a new subscriber is worth to them.

01:08:05   And this is true of many of the different

01:08:08   categories of podcasts, and some of them,

01:08:12   the people don't care what a new listener's worth to them.

01:08:14   They just want to get some listeners,

01:08:15   and then they have a new show maybe,

01:08:17   and they wanna get it basically going from zero.

01:08:19   And so they use the ads for that.

01:08:21   If you look at it purely as like how should I price these,

01:08:25   in terms of like pure demand, they keep selling out,

01:08:29   so I should price them way higher.

01:08:31   But if I price them higher,

01:08:32   we're gonna start getting into numbers

01:08:34   that if you think about the numbers,

01:08:36   if you run the numbers of like what is a listener worth,

01:08:38   it starts not to make sense for a lot of people.

01:08:40   So I don't want to reach that level.

01:08:42   So basically the answer is,

01:08:43   I think I even could make more money from it

01:08:46   if I tried to, but I would be afraid if I did that,

01:08:49   that I would have like a brief period of making more money

01:08:53   followed by a crash as a lot of advertisers

01:08:56   started seeing this actually isn't worth

01:08:58   what I'm paying for these users and starts bailing out.

01:09:00   So I wanna keep it reasonable

01:09:02   so that I have the most advertisers possible.

01:09:03   But besides that, that minor concern,

01:09:06   which I think is largely alleviated now

01:09:08   by just time and stability, it's going great.

01:09:12   It really is going great.

01:09:13   And it's one of the only advertising things

01:09:15   I've ever seen where basically all the parties win.

01:09:20   Because I'm not showing you ads for Viagra mattresses,

01:09:23   I'm showing you ads for podcasts in categories

01:09:27   that you subscribe to while you're using a podcast app

01:09:31   in a way that respects your privacy,

01:09:33   that isn't a huge burden, that doesn't get in your way.

01:09:36   It's a great setup.

01:09:39   And this obviously is not a method that every app can do.

01:09:43   So it's not like, I'm not saying like every app

01:09:45   should monetize the way I've monetized,

01:09:47   because, well, you simply can't, it doesn't apply.

01:09:50   But for what I am doing, it's working great.

01:09:54   And I have more advertisers who want to buy ads

01:09:58   than I have inventory to sell them, and that's wonderful.

01:10:01   - That's really awesome.

01:10:03   John, any additional thoughts on that?

01:10:06   - Nope.

01:10:07   - All right, Edgar Perez writes in,

01:10:09   and this is the first one that I noticed in this context,

01:10:13   But I've seen this come up a lot, particularly after our 1Password discussion.

01:10:17   And he writes to say, "I agree that $3 a month for an app service is reasonable, but what

01:10:21   if all the apps I use monthly want $3 a month?

01:10:24   Can't let apps kill the Mac."

01:10:26   I understand what people are driving at.

01:10:28   And again, Edgar isn't the first person to say this.

01:10:30   "Oh, if every app I use is a subscription app, well, suddenly I won't be able to afford

01:10:34   anything anymore."

01:10:36   And I get that.

01:10:37   But I think in my eyes, if everything I used became a subscription, I would either change

01:10:45   my usage or I would pay for it all.

01:10:49   And since we're now deep into the second episode, I don't remember if it was this episode or

01:10:53   last week, we talked about ad blockers.

01:10:55   I think it was last week, which was really two hours ago, talked about ad blockers and

01:10:59   how, Marco, you were saying, "Well, if an ad blocker shows up, then I'll just leave

01:11:04   and I just won't read that content."

01:11:05   It was this one, by the way.

01:11:06   Oh, it wasn't this one?

01:11:07   OK, thanks. So I'm getting tired. It's nearly midnight. But anyway, so point being, you

01:11:14   know, I think it's a similar thing. So like for me, and this is just for Casey, it may

01:11:18   not be for others, but for me, I absolutely will pay for 1Password and I will absolutely

01:11:23   pay for Day One. But maybe you're, you know, the listener here, maybe you're a Day One

01:11:27   user, but you don't love it. You just kind of like it. And maybe it's not worth paying

01:11:32   for on a regular basis. So you just stop using Day One and use Apple Notes or something like

01:11:37   that. That's okay. That's an option like that, that that will work in life will go on, but

01:11:43   I don't know. That's just the way I look at it. John, what do you think?

01:11:46   John Wall,

01:11:46   If you had remembered back to actual last week, I address this on the one password episode

01:11:52   I said look not every I did it from the perspective of an app developer

01:11:55   Not every app can sustain subscription pricing your app has to be valuable enough to enough people to sustain subscription pricing

01:12:02   So I don't think there's any fear that every single app is going to be you know

01:12:06   Three dollars a month because there are app categories entire categories level on individual apps that can't sustain it

01:12:12   But they don't deliver that much value to people

01:12:15   so

01:12:16   You have to you have to know your application and your market to say is any are enough people willing to subscribe to this

01:12:22   People probably aren't gonna pay three dollars a month for a fart app

01:12:25   Alright, even if you have new farts released every month like they're there a whole you know

01:12:30   You have to turn it you'd have to turn it into like a free for free to play, you know

01:12:35   Casino gambling exploit human nature type service to get that and then it's a different kind of app entirely, right?

01:12:40   So this is a fear that I don't think is a real thing.

01:12:43   If you're a customer, this will take care of itself.

01:12:45   Don't like the price, don't buy it, right?

01:12:47   And from a developer's perspective,

01:12:49   if you don't wanna be on the losing end

01:12:51   of that problem taking care of itself,

01:12:53   you should know, you know,

01:12:55   if we can't develop this without subscription pricing,

01:12:59   make sure that it is valuable enough to enough people

01:13:02   to justify subscription pricing.

01:13:04   And 1Password certainly is,

01:13:05   because a lot of people find it a very valuable thing

01:13:07   and they want it to work on an ongoing basis

01:13:09   and they understand the ongoing maintenance costs and they're willing to pay for it,

01:13:13   but your FART app might not be. So I would say don't worry about this too much and

01:13:17   if you don't want to pay for a subscription, don't pay for it.

01:13:19   I mean every time subscription pricing comes up, people bring up this issue of what's

01:13:27   going to happen when everything's subscription and everyone gets tired of it and stops paying

01:13:31   for it, you know, something like that, you know, the idea of subscription fatigue. And,

01:13:37   you know, we've been able to charge subscription prices now

01:13:39   for a little while, and that's just not happening.

01:13:43   I have not seen any sign that that's happening.

01:13:46   I think this is one of those things

01:13:47   that the market just sorts out itself.

01:13:49   Like John said, most apps aren't willing to,

01:13:52   or sorry, most customers aren't willing to pay

01:13:55   for most of their apps.

01:13:56   But they wouldn't be buying a $36 a year upgrade either

01:14:01   instead of paying $3 a month.

01:14:05   The fact is most apps have a lot of competition and aren't that necessary for most people.

01:14:10   So they're going to have a hard time no matter how they charge. But the apps that are really

01:14:15   valuable to people, that are difficult for people to go without or they're required for

01:14:20   them to do their work or whatever else, or that appeal to markets that don't care about

01:14:23   spending $3 a month, they can do this just fine. I don't think the whole slippery slope

01:14:30   argument of like, "Well, once all the apps go this way, no one's going to want to pay

01:14:32   anymore, I just don't think that's happening.

01:14:36   I think we would've seen that by now.

01:14:39   We would've seen that at least starting, and it's just not.

01:14:42   Most apps are not even trying to charge subscription rates,

01:14:47   and the ones that are mostly do okay.

01:14:51   - I agree.

01:14:52   Jude Dunne writes in, "Is it technically possible

01:14:54   "for Apple to make second-gen AirPods noise-canceling

01:14:57   "or noise-isolating?

01:14:58   "I really, really want that."

01:15:00   I don't see why not.

01:15:02   I think the problem with that is it's even more processing

01:15:04   to be done, thus even more battery usage,

01:15:06   but I mean at this point I don't know

01:15:08   that it would be a tremendous difference.

01:15:11   And certainly noise isolating,

01:15:12   I mean they could change the look of these things

01:15:16   and change where they sit within your ear,

01:15:19   but I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work.

01:15:20   Marco?

01:15:22   - Yeah, I mean you basically got it.

01:15:23   I mean the noise cancellation requires

01:15:26   a microphone on the outside and then DSP on the inside

01:15:29   to basically emit sound waves on the inside,

01:15:33   mixed into your sound, that will cancel out

01:15:37   by phase of the wave, that will cancel out the waves

01:15:40   of the ones coming in from the outside world.

01:15:42   So there's nothing stopping them from doing that,

01:15:44   as far as I know, in the hardware they have now,

01:15:46   or in that style of hardware they have now, rather.

01:15:50   But that wouldn't be very useful without better isolation.

01:15:54   And isolation is right now where they really fall down.

01:15:58   and that doesn't require any circuitry,

01:15:59   that requires physical barriers, basically,

01:16:02   literally just isolating you from the world around you.

01:16:04   And to do that, right now they are earbuds,

01:16:08   and what earbuds are are little drivers

01:16:10   that sit kind of inside your ears,

01:16:13   but they're more like resting

01:16:15   in a little curvy spot in your ear.

01:16:17   They're not really blocking your ear canal at all.

01:16:20   There are other types, like canal phones,

01:16:22   or in-ear monitors, they're also called,

01:16:26   that actually block your whole ear canal

01:16:27   with some kind of big rubber cone thing

01:16:30   or something like that and they physically block the sound

01:16:34   from getting into your ears.

01:16:35   Larger over-ear headphones have a similar effect

01:16:39   but they cup over your ears as if you're putting your hands

01:16:43   over your ears and block the sound that way.

01:16:45   Either way, you're physically blocking the sound

01:16:47   from getting there.

01:16:49   For the ear pods, sorry, for the AirPods or EarPods

01:16:52   to do that, they would have to have a totally different

01:16:54   shape that would actually block your ear canal

01:16:58   and be more like canal phones.

01:17:01   Or they would have to have some kind of coating or cover

01:17:04   you could put on them, some kind of accessory

01:17:06   that you could put on them to do that.

01:17:08   Although I think they would, ideally they would be

01:17:10   designed for this from the start.

01:17:12   So there's nothing stopping Apple from releasing

01:17:16   AirPod canal phones.

01:17:18   But it's a different style of product.

01:17:21   It's a whole different shape, it's a whole different

01:17:24   set of constraints and design goals

01:17:25   you'd have to have for it.

01:17:27   I don't expect they would do that, probably at all,

01:17:31   but if they do it, it would probably be a separate product.

01:17:34   It probably would not just be like AirPods 2,

01:17:37   now they block your whole ear canal.

01:17:39   It would probably be like, here's the new, you know,

01:17:41   air canals or, you know, whatever,

01:17:43   they would have a better name than that,

01:17:44   but it would probably be a separate product

01:17:46   because that's a very separate physical design

01:17:48   of these products.

01:17:50   - Let's just work on Apple being able to ship AirPods

01:17:52   in a reasonable timeframe before we worry

01:17:54   about adding features to them.

01:17:55   - Sick burn.

01:17:56   - Yeah, and again, I also would not spend too much time

01:18:00   waiting around for the AirPod 2s,

01:18:03   AirPods 2, whatever they're called.

01:18:05   I don't think Apple was updating the AirPods anytime soon.

01:18:08   - Yeah, I think you're probably right about that.

01:18:11   Alex S. Glomsass writes in to say,

01:18:15   "If you could make a single change to Swift,

01:18:17   "what would it be?"

01:18:18   I will say that even though it's probably not the biggest

01:18:24   thing in the world, what I'd really love to

01:18:25   see is reflection.

01:18:26   And I've talked about this from time to time.

01:18:28   Reflection or introspection means at runtime you can look

01:18:31   at an object in code and say, what are the properties it

01:18:33   has, what are the methods it has.

01:18:35   And typically, along with that, you'll see annotations,

01:18:40   which are attributes in C# world, which means you can

01:18:44   decorate your code with metadata, which

01:18:46   is also super useful.

01:18:47   I could go on and on and on about this,

01:18:49   but it's not terribly interesting.

01:18:50   So I'll just say, reflection with a bonus choice

01:18:53   of stealing Marco's thought earlier

01:18:56   of a better concurrency model.

01:19:00   So since I've stolen your obvious answer, Marco,

01:19:02   what would you say afterwards?

01:19:04   - Honestly, I don't really have a good answer

01:19:05   to this question, 'cause I don't know enough about Swift

01:19:08   because of the aforementioned factors.

01:19:10   I don't use it really enough.

01:19:12   So I really am not qualified to say.

01:19:14   - Jon?

01:19:16   So if a single change, if concurrency counts as a single change, oh, just solve concurrency.

01:19:23   The solution of your choosing, either a good implementation of async await or something

01:19:27   entirely different or whatever, that would be my single thing, but that's kind of vague.

01:19:29   If I have to be narrow, I would say regular expression literal.

01:19:34   You know.

01:19:35   No way.

01:19:36   Both of those things are coming, by the way.

01:19:38   It's just a question of when.

01:19:40   Brian Middleton asks, "What arcade games are each of you nostalgic for from your childhood?

01:19:45   Is there one game you would like to own?

01:19:47   I will start as usual.

01:19:49   We actually have a pinball machine in the house.

01:19:51   My dad, many years ago, had gone through a phase of restoring, or maybe not restoring,

01:19:58   but repairing old pinball machines.

01:20:01   And so he had like six of them at one point, but unloaded all but two of them, one of which

01:20:06   went to me and one of which he still has.

01:20:09   So I obviously have nostalgia for all those.

01:20:12   But in terms of like traditional arcade games, NBA Jam, Cruisin' USA, and Street Fighter

01:20:19   2, I didn't play any of them that much, but I enjoyed deeply all three of those, both

01:20:28   in arcade form and occasionally in console form.

01:20:31   So I would say those three.

01:20:33   Marco?

01:20:34   >> Honestly, I hardly went to arcades in my childhood.

01:20:37   We didn't really live that close to them, and we didn't have a lot of money.

01:20:41   And so the idea of just going there and blowing tens of dollars maybe, that would not really

01:20:49   happen in my family.

01:20:51   But when I did play a little bit of arcade games, since I was a teenager here and there,

01:20:56   the one I most liked was Daytona USA.

01:20:59   This was during the mid-90s or so, so the Sega Saturn was coming out, and so they had

01:21:06   a few cool games like Virtua Fighter and everything that were coming out alongside of it. And

01:21:11   Daytona USA was my favorite one. It was a racing game and it was just basic NASCAR style

01:21:17   I think. I don't know if that's what I'm about to say. Whatever style uses what appear to

01:21:23   be stock cars on a round track without a lot of turns. And it was a lot of fun but it was

01:21:30   a dollar per play in most arcades. So I hardly ever played it with the exception of there

01:21:35   was this like I was in some kind of youth group and there was one time that they had

01:21:39   a lock-in at a Magic Mountain arcade where we just got everything set to free play and

01:21:44   we got to play them all night. So I played a lot of Daytona USA for one night and that

01:21:50   was awesome. But other than that, I mean this is kind of a sad story. Like other than that

01:21:54   I hardly ever played arcade games so I don't really know.

01:21:57   Jon.

01:21:58   I played a lot of arcade games.

01:22:00   I was a lot that I'm very nostalgic for.

01:22:05   It's hard to pick one that I would want to own though because in general arcade games

01:22:09   back then, and I'm assuming still today, were made to take your money.

01:22:13   And so I remember getting lots of tokens or quarters and feeding them into these machines

01:22:19   and I think if I owned any of them, they would become shallow very fast, especially the games

01:22:26   I'm nostalgic about.

01:22:27   unless you do something like Centipede or like Pac-Man or you try to make it like the

01:22:30   perfect game or whatever.

01:22:31   But in a couple of summer camps I went to they had arcade games that were either set

01:22:37   to free or were only 25 cents when instead of 50 or whatever and that I played a lot.

01:22:45   And so there are some games I got really good at.

01:22:46   Like one of them that was Tiger Heli which is a top-down vertically scrolling shooter

01:22:53   thing or 1942 similar type of game.

01:22:56   those were at camp, I got really good at those games.

01:22:59   That was where you'd put in one quarter and I'd play it for a really, really, really long

01:23:02   time.

01:23:06   But even then, you feel like, "Oh, well now I've seen the whole game.

01:23:09   This is all there is to this game, and so I really wouldn't want to own it."

01:23:12   So I don't think I would want to own any of these machines, but most nostalgic for the

01:23:17   Star Wars sit-down game, After Burner, which was impressive when it first came out, especially

01:23:21   with the one where you move around inside the thing.

01:23:23   Was one of the first 50 50 cent games I can remember the classics centipede Galaga

01:23:29   I like time pilot is a weird one called section Z

01:23:32   Sidearm this was a totally weird one that I still think was awesome

01:23:35   I have all these on Mame now though, so I don't need to own any of these machines nice

01:23:39   Nuclear eclipse

01:23:43   Asks that this is John Reese when will you record neutral season two my official answer is we've been recording it

01:23:50   for the last three years and after shows of this show,

01:23:54   my unofficial answer is not soon enough.

01:23:57   John, let's go to you first.

01:23:59   - Well, you answered it.

01:24:00   There's no neutral season, so you're listening to it.

01:24:02   This is it. - Yep.

01:24:03   - Done and done.

01:24:05   Krusty the Clown writes, "Do you think an iOS laptop

01:24:09   would be a viable product, i.e. an iBook?

01:24:12   I was hoping Apple would announce it at WWDC,

01:24:14   but it didn't happen."

01:24:16   Isn't that kind of what an iPad Pro is?

01:24:18   like I understand, or well I presume that Roger Escobar,

01:24:22   the person who wrote in, is asking something

01:24:25   that has the physical, like connected keyboard and screen

01:24:28   that you can never separate the two.

01:24:32   I feel like an iPad Pro is so close to there that it's--

01:24:36   - Oh, it's so not. - I don't see really,

01:24:38   is it not? - It's so not.

01:24:38   - Okay, so I've never owned an iPad,

01:24:39   okay, well that's the thing, I've never owned an iPad Pro,

01:24:41   so learn me, so show me why I'm wrong.

01:24:43   - Yeah, so I have, I've now had the 9.7 Pro

01:24:47   and the 10.5 and I keep it always in the keyboard cover,

01:24:52   almost all the time, the Apple keyboard cover.

01:24:54   And there are other keyboard covers

01:24:56   that kind of make it a little bit more laptop-like,

01:24:58   but they're mostly not that great.

01:25:01   For the way some people use it,

01:25:04   and I'm one of these people, I would use that.

01:25:07   I would buy that product

01:25:08   because I always want the keyboard.

01:25:11   The keyboard is what made iPads usable for me.

01:25:14   It's simple as that.

01:25:15   I do occasionally go on the couch

01:25:18   and fold the keyboard back behind it

01:25:20   and try to use it without it, and I hate it.

01:25:21   I always end up folding it back out

01:25:23   and trying to use it on my lap, which is awful,

01:25:25   'cause it's all floppy and back weighted and everything.

01:25:28   So I would say this is not a huge market probably,

01:25:33   but if they did it, I would certainly buy it that way,

01:25:38   because iOS for me, part of the reason

01:25:43   why it feels so hobbled to me so often

01:25:45   is the lack of a keyboard when I'm on my phone

01:25:48   or when I'm on an iPad without that.

01:25:49   So that's why for me the keyboard really has made

01:25:52   a huge difference for me in making iOS on the iPad

01:25:55   and making the iPad worth having and worth keeping out

01:25:59   in my kitchen all the time.

01:26:01   So a clamshell version of that would be welcome.

01:26:05   But I honestly, I would be very surprised if they did it.

01:26:09   - Jon?

01:26:10   - This is whether it would be a viable product

01:26:13   and I think it totally would.

01:26:14   Like as iOS expands its functionality to solve some of the same problems that are currently

01:26:18   only or best solved by a Mac today, it inevitably has to come into that area because it's a

01:26:25   proven form factor.

01:26:26   People like that form factor.

01:26:27   It's just a question of, oh, can you combine that form factor with a bunch of other things,

01:26:32   software and battery life and cost and other trade-offs to make a compelling product?

01:26:36   Yes, you totally can.

01:26:37   Yeah, I think you could do it with iOS today, but certainly as iOS continues to get more

01:26:40   sophisticated.

01:26:41   So it would be a viable product.

01:26:43   Whether or how soon Apple will do it, I don't know.

01:26:46   Chance Rubbage writes in to ask, "More and more podcasts are going behind paywalls.

01:26:50   Is it a good idea for Apple to enable a tip jar or in-app purchase for podcasts?"

01:26:55   I don't see how that could really work out, especially since it would presumably be locked

01:27:00   to the Apple Podcasts app.

01:27:03   And even if you could just magically snap your fingers and make that work across any

01:27:06   podcast app anywhere, I don't know.

01:27:08   I think it would help the smaller podcasts,

01:27:11   but for something like us, I don't know that it would make,

01:27:15   and not to say we're like, sorry,

01:27:16   that implies that we're like a 99% invisible.

01:27:19   We're not that either, but like a mid-level,

01:27:22   if we can generously call ourselves that,

01:27:24   like a mid-level show like this one,

01:27:26   I don't know that it would make a big difference.

01:27:28   Let's go to Jon first.

01:27:29   - Apple implementing it is the problem here,

01:27:33   because having a way for people to do a tip jar

01:27:38   app purchases for podcasts, that would be a good thing because the ability to do more

01:27:44   business models more easily lets different shows find different ways to fund themselves.

01:27:48   Depends on the show and the audience and so on and so forth.

01:27:50   But having it be an Apple thing is bad because one of the great benefits of podcasts is they're

01:27:55   not owned and controlled by a single corporation to the degree that a lot of other things are.

01:28:00   And so I wouldn't want Apple to do this because if they're wildly successful it's a problem

01:28:06   And if they're not successful, then what the heck was even the point?

01:28:08   You don't allow more business models.

01:28:10   So I would love for there to be standards that, you know, that the clients would

01:28:16   work with across multiple platforms, just like RSS is a standard that clients work

01:28:20   with across multiple platforms to distribute podcasts.

01:28:23   If there was a similar standard, similar open cross-platform standard for enabling

01:28:28   different kinds of business models, that would be great.

01:28:29   But guess who's motivated to make such a thing, not Apple and not a lot of other

01:28:33   companies too.

01:28:34   - Yeah.

01:28:35   - Marco.

01:28:37   - I would say also like this question starts

01:28:39   with the statement more and more podcasts

01:28:40   are going behind paywalls.

01:28:42   This sounds like a big trend,

01:28:44   but I don't think it is much of one really.

01:28:46   I think the only podcasts that have actually succeeded

01:28:50   in going behind paywalls for the most part

01:28:52   are the ones that monetize their back catalogs.

01:28:55   They're fairly timeless and that you can either use

01:28:58   their own possibly paid app or pay for some membership

01:29:02   to download like, archived older episodes,

01:29:04   but then the current ones are still free.

01:29:07   That's a way more common thing.

01:29:09   And even that doesn't work for every show,

01:29:11   like that only works for shows that are timeless.

01:29:13   It wouldn't work for a show like ours

01:29:15   where we talk mostly about news, you know?

01:29:17   So, like that whole, like, I don't think a lot of podcasts

01:29:21   overall are going behind paywalls

01:29:23   in the traditional sense of like,

01:29:25   you can't listen to this unless you pay us.

01:29:28   The fact is, that's really hard,

01:29:30   it's really hard to grow an audience if you're behind a paywall. As, I mean, you look, look

01:29:34   around the whole rest of the web. Lots of news sites and everything have tried paywalls,

01:29:39   very few have succeeded because of this problem. And the ones that have, have these kind of

01:29:45   porous paywalls where you can get a bunch for free up front and then you might have

01:29:50   to pay us or clear your cookies. Or you can, you have to pay us to read all of our articles

01:29:54   unless you come from Google or Twitter. Like, there's like, there's all sorts of like these

01:29:58   holes because paywalls are really hard to make work. Podcasts have survived and thrived

01:30:05   and grown all this time, driven almost entirely by advertising. The exact same way most websites

01:30:11   have always funded themselves for all the same reasons. Again, it's hard to grow an

01:30:16   audience if you're making people pay on the way in and it's generally easier to sell ads

01:30:24   than to do that and advertisers will typically pay more than your audience will.

01:30:29   So I don't really think this is a big problem either a trend that is happening or something

01:30:35   that really needs to be explored that much.

01:30:38   So that being said, if Apple were to enable tip jars or in-app purchases for podcasts,

01:30:45   I've honestly I have thought about doing this in overcast before.

01:30:47   I've talked to podcasters about it.

01:30:49   The overall conclusion I have reached is that that would be a very messy business to be

01:30:55   in and that for the most part, podcasters now, because there isn't a big centralized

01:31:03   system run by Apple anywhere else, podcasters now have found ways to monetize their podcasts

01:31:08   on their own.

01:31:10   Ways that they own, ways that they control.

01:31:13   People have Patreons, people have memberships, some people just do ads like we do, some people

01:31:16   do some combination thereof.

01:31:18   But the point is that no one's involved.

01:31:20   There is no middleman.

01:31:21   There is no Apple skimming 30% off the top

01:31:24   and making everything go through them

01:31:26   and disallowing everything else

01:31:27   with the way there is in apps.

01:31:30   There is no middleman.

01:31:31   And when I talk to podcasters,

01:31:33   when I was thinking about doing something like this

01:31:34   in Overcast, the universal response was,

01:31:38   we don't want anyone else handling our money for us.

01:31:41   We don't want anyone else getting between our audience

01:31:43   and us, me or Apple or anybody else.

01:31:46   No one wanted that.

01:31:47   And I would say like, you know,

01:31:49   what if I started collecting money

01:31:50   and I just distributed it to you,

01:31:52   like, you know, readability style,

01:31:53   like, would you go for that?

01:31:55   And the universal response was kinda like,

01:31:58   yeah, I guess I would take the money,

01:32:00   but I wouldn't promote it,

01:32:01   because if I'm gonna promote something,

01:32:02   I wanna promote my own membership thing on my own site,

01:32:05   or my own Patreon, or whatever else.

01:32:06   Like, everybody wanted to do their own thing

01:32:08   with their own money,

01:32:09   and they don't want middle people to come in

01:32:12   and collect money on their behalf.

01:32:14   You're not doing them a favor by doing that.

01:32:16   So ultimately I see why this question is asked

01:32:21   and it's going to keep being asked every six months

01:32:24   for the next 10 years as everyone thinks

01:32:26   about these things with podcasts.

01:32:28   But I just don't think this is really a big problem

01:32:33   and I don't think anybody wants a huge middle man

01:32:36   to come in and get in the way between them

01:32:38   and their customers.

01:32:40   - And things like Patreon are a middle man as well

01:32:42   but they're divorced from podcasting.

01:32:44   There's nothing about Patreon that is podcast specific.

01:32:46   So it's just a question of like,

01:32:47   how do you find a way to fund the thing that you're doing?

01:32:49   And you have all these tools.

01:32:50   I mean, Stripe is a middleman there.

01:32:53   Like if they're taking a percentage of your transactions

01:32:55   or any, like there's always going to be people

01:32:57   taking a percentage of transactions,

01:32:58   but in the world of podcasting, it's nice to not have,

01:33:03   oh, you have to do it this way

01:33:04   because this is how podcasts are sold.

01:33:05   You wanna use Stripe, you wanna use Patreon,

01:33:07   you wanna use Kickstarter,

01:33:09   you wanna solicit donations on your webpage

01:33:11   use any one of those services.

01:33:13   None of those are tied to podcasting

01:33:15   and are interested to the podcast ecosystem

01:33:18   or force you to do something, unlike, for example, the App

01:33:21   Store where Apple absolutely controls

01:33:23   how you can collect money for your applications.

01:33:27   Chris Adamson writes, what streaming services

01:33:30   other than Netflix do you guys use?

01:33:32   Does Syracuse have a country roll subscription?

01:33:34   So actually, let's start with Jon,

01:33:36   and then we'll end with me.

01:33:38   So I saw this question I was trying to think of.

01:33:40   I subscribed to Hulu, I subscribed to Amazon Prime.

01:33:43   I do not have a Crunchyroll subscription,

01:33:45   but I have had one in the past.

01:33:46   Maybe there's other ones.

01:33:49   Honestly, I thought about it the other day.

01:33:52   I should catalog all the things I've subscribed to.

01:33:55   So I am aware, right up around the line,

01:33:58   eel style of not having too many subscriptions,

01:34:02   but they've been creeping in.

01:34:03   Like, I mean, for things like Hulu,

01:34:05   it's like, oh, I want to see "The Handmaid's Tale,"

01:34:07   so I've subscribed to Hulu.

01:34:08   But now I just have a Hulu subscription forever

01:34:10   because I find other shows that I want to watch.

01:34:12   I already watched "The Good Place" on there.

01:34:14   There's other things I'm gonna watch on Hulu, right?

01:34:17   This can't continue indefinitely

01:34:19   'cause I will be end up, you know,

01:34:20   I gotta add up all those five, 10, whatever dollars a month

01:34:23   and see whether I, oh, HBO?

01:34:25   Well, no, but that's part of my cable.

01:34:26   I don't know.

01:34:27   Too many, I guess is my answer.

01:34:30   - Fair enough.

01:34:32   Marco.

01:34:33   - For us, it's just, it's Netflix and HBO,

01:34:37   go or now, whichever one is, you know,

01:34:40   the one that doesn't require a cable. Those two, that's it.

01:34:43   - Yeah, for us it's Netflix,

01:34:44   and we are Amazon Prime members by virtue,

01:34:47   or Prime Video members by virtue of Amazon Prime.

01:34:50   - Oh yeah, us too, never use it.

01:34:52   - Yeah, and that's the thing, like,

01:34:53   outside of the Grand Tour, we never use it,

01:34:55   and I probably would have subscribed to Prime Video

01:34:57   specifically for the Grand Tour, and then regretted it,

01:34:59   because the Grand Tour was terrible.

01:35:01   Let's see, Xalf writes in, do I have a real name here?

01:35:06   Sorry, a little fancy spreadsheet doesn't catch real names.

01:35:08   Zalf Ryden writes in, "I'm standing in the computer store in my local mall before Christmas

01:35:13   1986.

01:35:14   John, sell me on a Mac Plus over the Apple IIGS."

01:35:18   Oh, the pixels are the size of boulders on the Apple IIGS.

01:35:22   The number of amazing games that you'll have to play on the Mac Plus will impress any Apple

01:35:29   IIGS.

01:35:30   Yes, I know the IIGS is color, but A, the Mac is the future, and B, the pixels are tiny,

01:35:34   And see, the Mac has an incredible amount of charm.

01:35:38   Like it's no contest.

01:35:40   If you have the money, as they say, if you have the means, I highly recommend one.

01:35:45   Do not do the Apple II GS.

01:35:46   It is a dead end.

01:35:47   That was Ferris Bueller, by the way.

01:35:51   All right.

01:35:52   Melvin Gundlach writes in, "How did you initially meet, and what got you started making podcasts

01:35:59   together?"

01:36:00   Bits and pieces of this story have been told many, many, many times in the past, so I'll

01:36:03   I'll try to give the chief summarizer and chief version.

01:36:07   Marco and I met when we were little kids.

01:36:10   Your parents or grandparents, it isn't entirely important,

01:36:13   had a house that was on a small lake in upstate New York.

01:36:16   My grandparents had a different house

01:36:19   on the same small lake in upstate New York.

01:36:21   And we would hang out over the summers

01:36:23   because basically we were the only kids that were there.

01:36:25   And we kind of fell out of touch, not in an angry way,

01:36:28   just in a, you know, we were kids

01:36:29   and we grew up kind of way.

01:36:31   And I think one of us would email the other from time

01:36:35   to time over the years.

01:36:36   And then shortly after--

01:36:38   I think it was after we both got married,

01:36:39   so not too terribly long after college--

01:36:42   one of us reached out to the other.

01:36:43   If I recall correctly, each of us

01:36:45   blames the other for doing this in both the good way

01:36:47   and the ha-ha way.

01:36:49   But anyway, somehow or another, we fell back in touch.

01:36:53   And we just kind of rekindled our friendship

01:36:55   from forever ago.

01:36:56   So of the people that I still talk to,

01:37:00   Marco and our now mutual friend Brad Lautenbach, who works for Light, they are my two oldest

01:37:06   friends that I've known for about the same amount of time, and it's been something like

01:37:09   20 years now.

01:37:10   So fast forward to WWDC 2011, 2012, I forget which one it was, I want to say it was 2011.

01:37:17   Marco and I are in line for the keynote, and I forget if John Seracusa walked up to us

01:37:21   or Marco found John, but one way or another, John found us and we found John, and we hung

01:37:27   out for the rest of the day, and then John and I kind of became friendly after that.

01:37:31   And around the time that Build and Analyze ended in late 2012, I guess it was, I had

01:37:37   started needling Marco about, "Hey, we should do a car show. We should do a car show. Even

01:37:41   if nobody listens to it, it'll still be fun. We should do a car show." Spoiler alert, nobody

01:37:45   listened to it. But anyway, Marco had the presence of mind to say, "You know, Hypercritical

01:37:50   just ended. I wonder if John would do it too, because he likes cars." And so that's how

01:37:54   Neutral got started and then we would, as three nerds are off to do, we would start talking about

01:37:59   nerdy stuff after the fact. And Marco, similar story, had the presence of mind to put that on

01:38:04   SoundCloud, which by the time you listen to this may not even exist anymore. And so he put those

01:38:10   episodes on SoundCloud and we realized, well, people actually like when we talk about things

01:38:14   we sort of know about and people are not that interested in us pontificating about cars, of

01:38:18   which we know nothing about. So maybe we should stop with the car thing and start with the tech

01:38:23   thing and that's kind of the super abridged version of how this all came to be and so

01:38:27   ATP really became a thing I think in March of 2013 and here we are in the middle of 2017

01:38:34   it's it's still a thing so let's start with Marco any other thoughts to add and then John

01:38:38   after him. Only that this is now one of the longest jobs I've ever held Instapaper was

01:38:44   longer. You caught me while I was taking a sip of water oh my god I almost died just

01:38:48   - Well done.

01:38:49   - Insta-Hiver was about five years,

01:38:51   so we're in year four now for this.

01:38:54   - Does that mean the clock is ticking

01:38:56   or should I get worried?

01:38:58   - No, I'll celebrate it.

01:39:00   Once this becomes the longest job I've ever held,

01:39:02   which I'm pretty sure will happen,

01:39:03   then I will celebrate then.

01:39:05   - Fair enough.

01:39:07   John, any other thoughts?

01:39:08   - I continue to protest the characterization

01:39:10   of not knowing anything about cars.

01:39:12   Speak for yourselves, I know a lot about cars.

01:39:14   (laughing)

01:39:18   Fair enough, I can't really argue with that.

01:39:21   Alright, let's see, what else is good?

01:39:24   What else is good here?

01:39:27   Do you tape your webcams, gentlemen?

01:39:29   John, do you tape over your webcam?

01:39:30   - Nope, nope.

01:39:32   - Same here.

01:39:33   Marco, are you still, and this is a question from Mark,

01:39:39   so Mark to Marco, are you still happy choosing Go

01:39:41   for the Overcast backend?

01:39:43   - Eh, not really, but, so first of all,

01:39:46   Only a very small part of the overcast backend is in Go.

01:39:49   Most of it is still PHP.

01:39:51   There's simply a separate Go process for the feed crawlers.

01:39:55   And it doesn't even do the whole process.

01:39:57   It just pulls a whole bunch of feeds

01:40:00   and fetches their contents for changes

01:40:02   if they don't respond with cache headers.

01:40:06   And then if it detects a changed feed,

01:40:08   it then stuffs the contents of that feed into a queue,

01:40:13   which is processed by PHP consumers.

01:40:15   and the whole web app is all PHP.

01:40:16   So I would not even say I have a Go backend.

01:40:19   I have one Go component in the backend.

01:40:21   And Go is an interesting language.

01:40:24   I'm sure a lot of people like it a lot.

01:40:26   I like it a lot for certain things,

01:40:28   but it's very cumbersome to do complex things.

01:40:32   So it's really great for what I'm using it now for,

01:40:36   which is something that is a fairly simple task

01:40:39   that you need to be really fast,

01:40:41   you need to have a certain concurrency story there.

01:40:44   But like, I would not wanna write,

01:40:47   now that I've gotten to know the language a bit

01:40:49   enough to do this, I would definitely not want to write

01:40:52   a whole web app of complexity using Go.

01:40:54   Just because simple things are cumbersome to do.

01:40:58   - Alright, we only have time for a few more

01:41:00   because I'm about to die.

01:41:02   And so, let's choose a few.

01:41:04   Oh god, I'm so sorry, I don't know how to pronounce this.

01:41:07   But Joshin Marshall, I'm so, so sorry.

01:41:10   How did you, or how did this year's ATP t-shirt campaign

01:41:13   work out for you. I'm happy to share my not-so-good experience." This is another example of doing

01:41:19   something nicely that could have taken a terrible turn.

01:41:24   So the shirts are a tough thing, right? Because right now we kind of have two choices. We

01:41:31   can use a company that has a printing press, if you will, in Europe, but doesn't seem to

01:41:40   do the best with fulfillment and oftentimes has problems, or we can use a company that

01:41:46   is only based out of the US, which kind of screws the Europeans, but is way more reliable.

01:41:54   And we've fluttered back and forth between these two options.

01:41:57   I will only speak for myself and say I will probably petition for the US-only company

01:42:03   next year and understand completely if like a $90 t-shirt is just too darn much money

01:42:09   to ask for from the Europeans because in some cases like with import tax and VAT or whatever

01:42:14   that stuff is called, it got to be unbelievably expensive.

01:42:19   And I am deeply sorry for that, I really truly am, but I'd rather have everyone have a good

01:42:25   experience and just decide whether or not it's worth the money to them than having a

01:42:30   really crummy experience.

01:42:32   So this is your warning Europeans right now that whenever we do t-shirts next, it's probably

01:42:37   going to be expensive and I am sorry.

01:42:40   Jon any other thoughts?

01:42:41   >> Jon Streeter I don't think it was that bad this year.

01:42:44   Like we sold a lot of shirts and there's some percentage where there's going to be problems.

01:42:49   I'm more happy having more, the larger number of people who are happy with the shirts that

01:42:55   they got across the whole world, even if it also means a proportionally larger number

01:42:59   of people who are unhappy because I'm presuming the unhappy people can at least, at the very

01:43:03   least get their money back.

01:43:05   But it is a trade-off and we've tried it both ways and people complain either way and who

01:43:09   knows what we'll do.

01:43:10   The problem is that this is not our core competency.

01:43:13   We are not a t-shirt generating enterprise.

01:43:16   We are a podcast generating enterprise that once a year does this silly thing with t-shirts.

01:43:20   So the right way to do this is like, "Oh, you got to do it all in-house."

01:43:23   But we're not a corporation here.

01:43:24   We're just three people.

01:43:25   So every year, these three people try to figure out how to do t-shirts in a way that makes

01:43:31   sense for everybody involved.

01:43:32   And we have varying degrees of success.

01:43:34   And guess what?

01:43:35   We're gonna try again.

01:43:36   - Marco, any other thoughts?

01:43:38   - I'm with you, Casey, and I would go a little further

01:43:44   to say, so basically, I'll name names here.

01:43:47   Cotton Bureau does great work.

01:43:49   They have awesome quality.

01:43:52   They have awesome people who are there,

01:43:55   who help with the designs or often do the designs.

01:43:58   They designed our ATP Rainbow M logo kind of thing.

01:44:02   They designed that themselves without even us telling them.

01:44:04   like they are great, they do great work.

01:44:07   But yeah, their international shipping is really expensive

01:44:09   because they print here in the US.

01:44:11   And so Teespring, which is what we used this year

01:44:15   and a couple years ago also,

01:44:17   Teespring has printers in multiple locations

01:44:20   around the world.

01:44:21   We've had lots of problems though with Teespring.

01:44:24   So it is cheaper and we actually make more money

01:44:27   from the Teespring shirts usually, I think.

01:44:30   But I would go as far as to say right now on the record,

01:44:34   I don't think I ever want to use Teespring again after this year because in the past the quality issue was a

01:44:40   Single large mistake it was like when we had that but that wrong font

01:44:44   On the source code on the back of the shirt like that was a single large mistake that we work with them

01:44:50   They corrected it. They sent everybody new shirts. It was one mistake one big mistake that was fixable

01:44:56   This year the problem. I don't know what has changed at Teespring

01:45:00   I know there's an article about they were having you know layoffs or something

01:45:03   so I don't know what's going on over there,

01:45:04   I don't pay attention.

01:45:05   But this year, it was like a large number

01:45:09   of different diffuse small problems.

01:45:12   Like even the shirts I ordered,

01:45:15   I have bad printing on like two of the four shirts

01:45:18   that I ordered.

01:45:19   There were things like missing colors,

01:45:21   things like misalignment where like the logo

01:45:24   was slightly slanted instead of being aligned properly.

01:45:27   Like stuff like that, just a lot of like small diffuse issues

01:45:32   with Teespring this year, that it seems like maybe

01:45:35   they have more printers, I don't know what the deal is,

01:45:37   but it was the kind of problem that you can't really

01:45:40   just go to them and have them fix.

01:45:41   You can't go to them and say, hey, like,

01:45:43   a third of these shirts from random color combinations

01:45:46   and places are weird in different ways

01:45:49   and they're all inconsistent.

01:45:50   Like, they're not gonna be able to fix that.

01:45:52   So, I would rather, you know, going back to what Kees said,

01:45:56   I would rather have something that I at least know

01:45:59   is a good product, that is at least coming out right

01:46:02   and coming out with high quality,

01:46:04   even if it costs too much for some people

01:46:06   to be able to justify, I'd rather sell that

01:46:09   than to do what we had this year

01:46:11   and see people sending in pictures of the shirt

01:46:14   that they were so excited to get

01:46:15   and I see like it's missing a color

01:46:17   or it's slanted or it's a bad print job, bad ink.

01:46:21   Like that crushes me, so I cannot deal with that again.

01:46:25   So I would not want the one to do Teespring anymore

01:46:28   and I don't care what it does.

01:46:30   I'd rather not sell t-shirts

01:46:31   than sell Teespring t-shirts again.

01:46:33   - Yeah, I'm pretty similar in that feeling.

01:46:38   Marco, since you were just talking,

01:46:40   let's have you talk a little more.

01:46:41   Why do you do all the ad reads?

01:46:43   That's by Phil Cohen, by the way.

01:46:44   - I just kinda do, we never really talked about it.

01:46:48   (laughs)

01:46:49   I just kinda do it, I don't know.

01:46:49   - I know, that was exactly my answer.

01:46:51   Yeah, it just was the way it started with neutral.

01:46:55   - The short answer is that I don't wanna do them,

01:46:58   - And Casey doesn't want to do them, and Marco does them.

01:47:02   And so neither of us are gonna go,

01:47:04   "Hey Marco, can we do that thing

01:47:05   "that neither of us want to do?"

01:47:07   No, we're gonna let Marco do it.

01:47:08   So basically it's because Marco is nice enough to do them,

01:47:10   and Casey and I are nice enough to let him.

01:47:13   (laughing)

01:47:15   - I think I started out that,

01:47:16   I used to sell them directly myself at the beginning,

01:47:19   so it started out that I was selling them,

01:47:21   so it just made sense for me to also read them,

01:47:24   because I was talking to the sponsors

01:47:25   and learning what they wanted me to say and everything else.

01:47:28   These days I think anybody could do it, but yeah, I do it and I don't mind doing it

01:47:32   and it's part of my workflow and it's totally fine.

01:47:35   And also part of the thing, like this is true in a lot of relationship situations, very

01:47:39   often there's one person that cares more about something than somebody else and I have

01:47:43   a feeling Marco cares more about the ad reads than either one of us do.

01:47:46   Certainly more than I do.

01:47:47   I do.

01:47:48   The way, how much tweaking he does to the ad copy and getting it so that he's happy

01:47:52   with it.

01:47:55   I think that is a factor.

01:47:57   I think if either one of us did ad reads, we would do it in a way that Marko does not

01:48:00   find satisfactory.

01:48:01   Definitely.

01:48:02   That is a good point.

01:48:03   All right.

01:48:04   I think this is going to be the last question, and it should be a good one.

01:48:08   Hans Schrader writes in, "I'm from Europe.

01:48:11   Could Jon explain for a foreigner why he is so touchy on the subject of bagels?"

01:48:14   No, I'm going to explain to Casey why he should select the question that I highlighted

01:48:18   in yellow in the spreadsheet as our final question.

01:48:21   I can only see, but so much of the spreadsheet at once, my word.

01:48:24   All right, well, I'm sorry.

01:48:25   Oh, 100.

01:48:26   I am nowhere near there. That's why I skipped it. Okay, so the answer the question is the answer the question that John isn't answering is

01:48:32   there are good bagels and there are things that vaguely resemble bagels and

01:48:36   John and I both have reasons to prefer

01:48:39   So this is a very simple thing everyone has foods that they growing up that are like regional or

01:48:50   Local to their family or whatever, but they're nostalgic for like I want to have the ex that I had

01:48:56   when I was a child. That's a thing. And bagels are like that for me, only bagels are

01:49:02   pretty widely regional to the New York metro area. So I grew up with the

01:49:07   expectation that I can get bagels that taste in a certain way and pizza that

01:49:13   tastes a certain way pretty much anywhere. And as you know a sheltered

01:49:18   child who didn't travel too much, I assumed this was true everywhere in the

01:49:21   United States. But then when I went off to college I learned this is not true

01:49:24   and even just up a little bit farther north and east,

01:49:29   everything I got that people called a bagel

01:49:31   didn't taste like the things that I ate

01:49:33   when I was growing up and I'd go back to New York

01:49:35   and say, no, they're still there,

01:49:36   but nobody else has them and say anything with pizza.

01:49:37   So it's basically, that's why it's important

01:49:40   that bagels are made a certain way

01:49:43   in the region where I grew up.

01:49:45   And because that's sort of their entry point into the US,

01:49:49   they have some stake in saying,

01:49:50   this is the way the bagels are quote unquote,

01:49:52   supposed to taste, right?

01:49:54   and that I can't get them where I currently live,

01:49:56   so that's why I'm nostalgic for them.

01:49:57   That's it, same thing with pizza.

01:49:58   Pizza's actually probably worse than bagels,

01:50:00   but both of them I miss.

01:50:01   But when I was on Long Island, I had both.

01:50:04   Yeah, it's reasonable for me.

01:50:06   Thanks for our sponsors this week,

01:50:07   Betterment, Warby Parker, and Squarespace,

01:50:10   and we will see you next week.

01:50:11   (upbeat music)

01:50:14   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

01:50:16   ♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

01:50:19   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:50:21   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:50:21   ♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪

01:50:23   John didn't do any research, Margo and Casey wouldn't let him

01:50:29   'Cause it was accidental, it was accidental

01:50:34   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

01:50:39   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them

01:50:44   [MUSIC]

01:51:14   So the Zelda question is the one you want, John?

01:51:17   The one in yellow. I mean, it's not enough material for an after show, but yeah.

01:51:22   I can't tell. I have flux on, so I can't tell what the hell is yellow right now.

01:51:25   Oh, god, I'm blind. Oh, god, I'm blind.

01:51:29   See, flux is... I don't like those things.

01:51:33   We can't even tell yellow.

01:51:35   Alright. Vincent Scerved. Vincent Scerved. I'll get this one day.

01:51:40   Right, so what is the status on your Breath of the Wild progression?

01:51:43   Did you finish every aspect of the game, etc.?

01:51:45   As I did with most questions, I'll start this off.

01:51:47   I still very much enjoy the game, but haven't played it in probably like a month and a half.

01:51:53   I've just been incredibly busy lately and haven't had a chance to sit down with it.

01:51:58   And also, I think we discussed on the show at some point, I am not very good at picking

01:52:03   the game up and remembering exactly what I was doing when I put it down, so I'll have

01:52:07   like a particular task or mission or thing I want to accomplish, which sometimes is like,

01:52:12   you know, one of the official game tasks, but sometimes it's like, "Oh, I want to go

01:52:15   and get myself ready for this game task by going across the map and doing such and such

01:52:19   thing or whatever the case may be."

01:52:20   And then I never write it down and completely forget.

01:52:23   And then I get frustrated when I pick the game back up because I have no memory and

01:52:26   need to like re-establish where I am and what I'm doing.

01:52:31   That's my two cents.

01:52:32   Marco, let's talk.

01:52:33   Are you playing Zelda at all?

01:52:34   No, not at all.

01:52:35   Okay.

01:52:36   Alright moving on to John. Well Marco can give us a Tiff update. How is she doing it?

01:52:41   I don't know. Tiff slash Adam. They're playing it sometimes. I can't tell you how far they

01:52:44   are. I have no idea. Try to participate in your family Marco. Sit down with them. They'll

01:52:50   watch you play your stupid Sonic games. No I don't think I watch sometimes but I have

01:52:55   no idea how to communicate to you how far they are. Alright. Alright. So for me in Breath

01:53:03   of the Wild. I don't usually 100% games, I have 100%'ed many Zeldas, that series I play

01:53:13   a lot, I like a lot. There's a chance I would have 100%'ed Breath of the Wild if it wasn't

01:53:18   for the Korok seeds, I don't think I'm ever going to do that, there's just too many of

01:53:22   them. But I have, I'm coming close to doing every non-seed thing in the non-DLC portion

01:53:31   the game to the point where also we're doing things like having every possible armor set

01:53:36   also fully upgraded.

01:53:37   I'm getting close to that.

01:53:38   It's like it's within reach and I might end up doing it.

01:53:41   For the DLC, I did the, what is it, the Trial of the Sword.

01:53:47   I did that.

01:53:48   So my Master Sword is fully charged up to 60 all the time, which is awesome and also

01:53:52   lasts a much longer time.

01:53:54   I did all the side quests in the DLC.

01:53:56   So I've done everything, 100% of the DLC, which was tiny, whatever.

01:53:58   It's not a big deal.

01:53:59   Like I said, I don't even have all the shrines left, I'm in the hundreds, but I'm within striking distance of 100%'ing everything in the main game, aside from the Korok seeds.

01:54:12   (beeping)