233: Nobody Cares But Me, But I Do Care


00:00:00   So you use the... it's a 15 inch? No, you have the Escape with the 5K and the Escape's clamshelled.

00:00:07   Close. It's back to a 15, remember?

00:00:09   I know I make it hard to keep track.

00:00:11   I can't keep track. Holy s***.

00:00:13   [Laughter]

00:00:15   So you're on a 15 touch bar.

00:00:17   I'm on a 15 touch bar, which I never actually used the touch bar.

00:00:19   And that was because of all the ports.

00:00:21   It was partially because of the ports and it was partially because I tried the first few weekends I was spending here.

00:00:26   I used the MacBook escape with the 5k and it was struggling to drive all those

00:00:33   pixels like basic operations like window dragging was slow and and then and I did

00:00:38   want more performance if it was gonna be like my main computer for a month of

00:00:42   heavy iOS development you know then I rationalize it away by saying well then

00:00:46   when I go home I can bring the LG 5k and I can sell my iMac while it is still

00:00:52   under any kind of warranty it has like a fee it's I think it's under warranty

00:00:56   until October, and then use my clamshell with this,

00:01:00   the setup I have now, as my main setup

00:01:02   until the Mac Pro comes out next year.

00:01:04   - So I have appropriated a second 4K monitor,

00:01:09   which is a story that's not worth telling at the moment.

00:01:11   So I have two of these LJ 4K monitors,

00:01:14   LG, what did I just say, LG, 4K monitors,

00:01:17   that are now being run off of my pre-Touch Bar MacBook Pro.

00:01:23   And to be honest, it actually seems just fine with these.

00:01:26   Now granted, they're 4K, not 5K, it's a big difference,

00:01:28   but it seems just fine with two 4Ks.

00:01:31   However, I have forgotten how persnickety

00:01:34   and fickle Mac OS is when it comes to clamshell mode.

00:01:39   - Oh yeah. - 'Cause there are lots

00:01:40   of times that I'll, like I put it to sleep

00:01:43   and I open it up and it's furious

00:01:45   and sometimes doesn't wake up.

00:01:46   I don't put it to sleep and I just rip all the cables out

00:01:49   and I walk away and it goes to sleep

00:01:51   and then may or may not wake up.

00:01:53   Or I'll open the lid and I'll rip all the cables out.

00:01:55   Then everything just dances all over the place

00:01:58   and then it may or may not actually be

00:02:00   the way I want it to be.

00:02:01   Clamshell is not really what we should be doing

00:02:05   with these things, which is unfortunate

00:02:06   'cause I do like it when I have either a 5K as you have

00:02:09   or a couple of 4Ks like I have.

00:02:12   - And I'll tell you what,

00:02:13   as I've been using Clamshell here at vacation times,

00:02:17   I completely agree.

00:02:18   It's been a while since I've used just a laptop

00:02:21   with Mac OS, a laptop with a desktop screen connected to it.

00:02:24   - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:02:25   - Like, I used to do that all the time.

00:02:26   I used to be on my main setup,

00:02:28   but that was probably a good six, seven years ago at least,

00:02:32   and I had forgotten quite how just inconsistent

00:02:35   a lot of the stuff is.

00:02:36   Like, it just doesn't work right,

00:02:38   and now with the touch bar, it's even worse.

00:02:40   Like, every time I log in,

00:02:42   the text box won't show on the main screen.

00:02:45   I have to start typing,

00:02:46   'cause the laptop is waiting for touch ID, but it's closed.

00:02:50   And so on the big LG screen,

00:02:52   it just shows me a login window,

00:02:54   and it will not show the text area unless you start typing.

00:02:57   It's just weird little stuff like that.

00:02:58   It's just not good.

00:03:01   I really honestly, I'm rethinking my plan now

00:03:05   of getting rid of my iMac early.

00:03:06   I'm like, oh God, this is awkward.

00:03:09   Not to mention this LG screen is such a piece of crap.

00:03:12   - Is it really?

00:03:13   That's so disappointing. - I rented about it before.

00:03:15   So one thing is I had to get an Ergotron arm

00:03:18   because the stand is so wobbly.

00:03:21   It just kept wobbling.

00:03:22   Every time I would type on my keyboard,

00:03:24   I don't think I'm that aggressive of a typist,

00:03:27   but every time I would type on the keyboard,

00:03:29   my monitor would wobble back and forth.

00:03:31   But yeah, the LG is, it's a piece of crap.

00:03:34   It's just, it's not a good, it's a PC monitor,

00:03:38   it has crap speakers, it has crap frame around it,

00:03:40   it's, you know, it had that stupid interference problem

00:03:43   with the early ones, like it's just not

00:03:45   well-engineered piece of anything. And I don't expect to be buying more non-Apple monitors

00:03:52   there, if I can help it.

00:03:54   [Music]

00:03:55   All right, so this is a weird setup for tonight. It is currently the evening of Friday, the

00:04:01   4th of August. And we are going to do a marathon recording session. And we need to get this

00:04:07   week's, which probably won't be released until tomorrow on the 5th, Saturday the 5th of August,

00:04:13   This week's recording, which will probably be a mostly normal ATP recording, and next

00:04:19   week's, which will be released on or around Wednesday the 9th, we are going to do a bit

00:04:26   of Q&A, probably for most of what ends up being the second episode.

00:04:31   But we are recording these both back-to-back, and we may or may not have a clean separation

00:04:37   between the first episode and the second, depending on how aggressive Marco gets when

00:04:42   when he does the splicing and dicing.

00:04:44   - I have so many ideas.

00:04:46   - Oh, I can only imagine.

00:04:47   This one?

00:04:48   - I'm thinking like, so my two favorite ideas are

00:04:50   either we do like, you know, next week on ATP,

00:04:54   like one of those previous,

00:04:56   or we do like the classic cop-out of like,

00:04:59   I don't know how to end this song in the 80s,

00:05:01   so I'm just gonna fade it out.

00:05:03   (laughing)

00:05:04   We'll just be repeating the same sentence

00:05:06   over and over again and just slowly fade, fade, fade it out.

00:05:10   - Way to spoil your two best ideas.

00:05:11   you don't put this in the episode.

00:05:12   [laughter]

00:05:13   Oh, that's so true. So anyway, so this one, it might feel—or this one and the next one,

00:05:20   I should say—might feel slightly weird, and I apologize if that's the case. Like

00:05:24   we had mentioned, I think, on the last episode, between the three of us, we have planned our

00:05:29   vacations to not overlap at all, which is kind of unfortunate for times when you want

00:05:36   to make sure all three of you are here to record. So we're doing the best we can,

00:05:39   We apologize and thanks for bearing with us.

00:05:40   That being said, John, how was your beach vacation?

00:05:45   - It's fine.

00:05:46   - Good talk.

00:05:47   All right, let's start with some follow up.

00:05:50   - Wow.

00:05:51   - That is the most John answer I could have imagined.

00:05:54   All right, so let's talk about--

00:05:55   - That was actually slightly more upbeat

00:05:57   than I would have guessed.

00:05:58   (laughing)

00:05:59   - So let's talk about TSMC's 10 nanometers

00:06:03   versus Intel's 10 nanometers.

00:06:06   And we had somebody in the know write in,

00:06:10   and that person said,

00:06:12   "You know, I work for one of the companies involved,

00:06:14   "and they might be biased, but I like the show.

00:06:17   "This is this person talking."

00:06:18   And I just wanted to point out

00:06:19   that like so many other things in technology,

00:06:21   naming of process nodes has become

00:06:23   more marketing than reality.

00:06:25   So there's an article that talks about this,

00:06:26   and one of the recent tricks,

00:06:28   continues this anonymous emailer,

00:06:30   one of the recent tricks is to quote a distance

00:06:32   between features that are not electrically active.

00:06:35   So this allows you to quote a small number,

00:06:37   but of course doesn't do much

00:06:38   for increasing transistor density.

00:06:40   And another person, Julian Heatherbell wrote in to say

00:06:44   that TSMC's 10 nanometers is only a bit denser

00:06:47   than Intel's 14.

00:06:49   So Intel claims a three-year advantage on 10 nanometers

00:06:52   and wants to redefine everything.

00:06:53   We have another post about that.

00:06:55   And yet another post, which we'll put in the show notes

00:06:58   about how Intel may still be set

00:07:00   to lose process leadership after next year.

00:07:03   - Are you gonna race?

00:07:04   Are you in a hurry?

00:07:05   We got two episodes to fill here. You're like

00:07:07   Stretch it out. You know, you know the TV stretch out motion looks like you're pulling taffy. You know, yeah

00:07:14   Yeah, yeah doing the opposite. You're doing the the fingers rotating it together. Yeah. Yeah get it together

00:07:19   Do we really need to try hard to stretch out follow-up? Apparently we do because Casey's going for a speed run again

00:07:25   Let me just put a bow on this whole section of fault

00:07:28   There will be three links in this show notes if you want to read more about this

00:07:30   But the upshot is that a lot a lot of people wrote us to say

00:07:34   hey Intel 10 nanometer isn't gonna be way smaller than TSMC 10 nanometer and there's a lot of reasons for that and

00:07:41   Feature size is not very strictly defined as this a couple of these emailers pointed out, you know

00:07:48   You can quote unquote cheat by quoting distances that aren't meaningful or according distances that make your particular arrangement

00:07:54   Look good because again these are when they're laying out the things on the chips. It's a 3d arrangement of things

00:07:59   There's a layering vertical horizontal, you know, it's a three-dimensional. It's not just like

00:08:03   Even though it's done with you know lithography. It's not just two-dimensional like a drawing

00:08:07   It's actually a 3d shape and it influences what the distances are between things in any way

00:08:11   It's complicated but consensus was from all the different feedback and all different articles that

00:08:15   TSMC 10 nanometer is not as small as Intel 10 nanometer

00:08:20   It Intel still has a lead and that final link is like well

00:08:22   Maybe they have lead now, but they're gonna lose it in 2019 and later, and I guess we'll see

00:08:27   That was still fairly quick. Thank you very much

00:08:30   (laughing)

00:08:32   Just saying.

00:08:33   But you're right, we should stretch it out.

00:08:35   So, Steven Dean wrote in to say,

00:08:40   I can't even continue with this.

00:08:43   - I thought you were struggling to pronounce his name.

00:08:45   - No, no, no. (laughing)

00:08:46   - I'm like, wow, that was an easy one.

00:08:47   - Steven Dean, that one's really difficult.

00:08:50   So, Steven wrote in to say,

00:08:52   you're missing a lot of your movie sound

00:08:53   without a subwoofer.

00:08:54   Your atoms only go down to about 86 hertz,

00:08:57   which is normal cutoff for a non-full range.

00:09:00   Can you translate that into English for me?

00:09:02   - Yeah, so basically, you know, speakers,

00:09:04   because they are these giant moving things and everything,

00:09:06   there's a certain frequency range

00:09:07   that they're able to reproduce.

00:09:09   And what he's saying is that the low end

00:09:12   of the frequency range of the woofers

00:09:15   that are in my Paradigm Atom speakers,

00:09:18   they can't reproduce very, very, very low frequencies.

00:09:22   And subwoofers have a lower floor.

00:09:24   They can reproduce frequencies much lower.

00:09:28   And that is certainly one reason to have a subwoofer.

00:09:32   I think a better reason to have a subwoofer

00:09:33   is to get more bass energy.

00:09:37   You can get more of that thump, more of that slam,

00:09:41   unlike bass hits and sounds and stuff,

00:09:43   and you can also just get more volume and more spread.

00:09:47   That's probably the better reason to have it, honestly.

00:09:49   But my reasons for not liking subwoofers

00:09:52   and not really wanting one remain.

00:09:55   I designed my TV speaker setup to be really good for music

00:09:59   in a way that still is okay for TV.

00:10:02   And I think for music, I still largely prefer

00:10:06   two speakers, not surround, and for that to be

00:10:10   not with some big, booming, thumpy subwoofer

00:10:14   in the corner of the room.

00:10:16   Now I know there are ways to do it better.

00:10:19   However, the arrangement of my living room

00:10:21   is such that I don't really have a good place

00:10:23   to put a subwoofer or maybe even a pair of subwoofers

00:10:27   that would make any sense and that would sound good.

00:10:31   So, you know, lots of people have written in saying,

00:10:33   you know, you can put the subwoofer in good places,

00:10:35   there are good subwoofers, you know,

00:10:36   there are more of that, more ways to do it

00:10:39   than what I said last time.

00:10:40   And that is true, you know, in an ideal world,

00:10:43   but my living room is not an ideal world.

00:10:45   And so I have limitations of what I can put where,

00:10:50   how much space I have in the current arrangement,

00:10:53   how things need to look because we don't want everything

00:10:57   to just be this on like giant box.

00:10:58   So, you know, my setup is fine for me.

00:11:01   And if you want subwoofers in your setup

00:11:03   or if you want surround sound in your setup, cool.

00:11:06   I don't really mind either way.

00:11:08   - I don't know how the setup is good for music.

00:11:09   If you're giving up 20 to 86 hertz,

00:11:12   that entire frequency range,

00:11:13   that's present in music too.

00:11:15   It's not just movies with explosions that have it.

00:11:17   You know, I mean, all the things about volume,

00:11:18   obviously, yeah, maybe you want that exaggerated in a movie,

00:11:20   but just playing old music.

00:11:21   Music has bass too.

00:11:22   I know you don't like bass, usually,

00:11:23   in your headphone reviews, but you're missing out

00:11:26   on part of the spectrum. - No, that's not true.

00:11:28   I don't like when bass is all you hear.

00:11:31   And so, while, again, I agree that it would be nice

00:11:36   to have solid response across the whole frequency range

00:11:39   in practice, that's harder, it's way easier doing headphones

00:11:43   than it is in speakers.

00:11:44   Headphones, you only have one driver

00:11:46   and you can do a lot of easier things with it.

00:11:50   but with speakers you have to have large things

00:11:53   that depend on the arrangement of your room

00:11:55   and large boxes and large transducers of some kind

00:11:58   that vibrate up and down.

00:12:00   - Just get a HomePod, it'll figure out

00:12:01   how your room is arranged to make sure everything sounds okay.

00:12:03   - I'm actually really curious to hear

00:12:06   how the HomePod deals with bass.

00:12:08   Because it's one of those things,

00:12:09   it's kind of like how it's hard

00:12:12   for very, very small camera sensors

00:12:14   to do things that require big glass.

00:12:17   Bass reproduction is one of those things

00:12:20   where like at some point you kind of just need largeness.

00:12:24   Like you need like a large surface to vibrate slowly

00:12:28   to get some of that, you know?

00:12:30   And so it's very, very hard for any kind of very small

00:12:32   speaker to have good bass response.

00:12:35   That's why once the trend moved in computer speakers

00:12:38   and then later in home theater speakers,

00:12:40   once the trend moved to very, very small speakers,

00:12:44   they also had to add subwoofers

00:12:45   because the little tiny speakers

00:12:47   can reproduce the higher frequency, it's just fine,

00:12:49   but then they needed to add a subwoofer

00:12:51   to get the low frequencies.

00:12:52   And there was no way to make a small speaker

00:12:55   that could also do the low frequencies.

00:12:57   So the Amazon Echo definitely has this problem

00:12:59   where the bass on it is non-existent,

00:13:01   although the sound quality isn't very good anyway on it,

00:13:04   so maybe they just don't care.

00:13:05   But the HomePod, I would imagine they're gonna care

00:13:09   a lot about sound quality, so I am really curious

00:13:12   to see how they solve that problem,

00:13:13   if they solve that problem, or if they just crank up

00:13:16   the base in DSP within the speaker,

00:13:20   like artificially inflate the little bit of base they have

00:13:24   and just hope that's enough and call it a day.

00:13:27   - What was the biggest driver in the HomePod?

00:13:28   It was like four inches or six inches or something?

00:13:31   - I don't know, I should look that up.

00:13:33   Six inches is pretty big.

00:13:35   - The whole thing is not that big.

00:13:36   So we know it can't be, it's not bigger than the pod itself.

00:13:39   It actually is a pretty small little thing,

00:13:40   but yeah, it can't be that big of a speaker in there.

00:13:43   It's kind of a shame that, you know,

00:13:44   It was a question I had about them and I still have, although I think it's mostly been answered.

00:13:48   If you buy two of them like they recommend, it's not as if they act like stereo speakers.

00:13:52   It seems like they both just figure out how to best fill the room with sound, but each

00:13:56   one of them, it's not like one is the left speaker and one is the right.

00:13:59   And similarly, one doesn't just become the sub.

00:14:02   You know what I mean?

00:14:03   Like imagine if one could just do the low frequencies and it looks like a low sub or

00:14:07   for any of those, it's like the jellyfish.

00:14:08   But apparently they don't work that way.

00:14:11   we were living in Connecticut, so this is when I was in like high school, and dad had decided that

00:14:19   he wanted to take his home theater really seriously. And so not only did we have some

00:14:24   subwoofer somewhere in the corner of the room, but he actually installed, I believe the term was bass

00:14:29   shakers, or at least maybe that's a brand, like a Xerox thing. What is that, a proprietary eponym,

00:14:34   or whatever it is? But anyways, basically under the floor of the room, the TV room, there were a

00:14:40   a handful of basically vibrator motors like you would find in your phone, which is much

00:14:44   bigger. And they were wired into the amplifier and acted as ancillary subwoofers. So you

00:14:49   would literally feel explosions when you were watching movies. It was pretty cool at the

00:14:53   time.

00:14:54   >> Magic fingers, right?

00:14:55   >> I'm sure that's a reference, and I don't get it, but I'm just going to roll with it.

00:14:58   >> These terms all sound really gross.

00:15:00   >> Yeah, in the modern parlance, it's the local furniture store that has an IMAX theater.

00:15:06   This is a normal thing if you are from where I'm from.

00:15:08   >> Oh, my God.

00:15:09   has a thing called butt kickers.

00:15:12   - Yeah, it sounds similar.

00:15:13   - Yeah, the only thing they call them butt kickers.

00:15:15   (laughing)

00:15:16   And there's a literal thing in everybody's seat

00:15:18   that shakes you.

00:15:19   It's novel.

00:15:21   - It is novel, that's well put.

00:15:23   Also Marco, I wanna commend you for being okay

00:15:26   with not perfection.

00:15:27   'Cause I completely agree with you.

00:15:28   Like it is unequivocally not perfection

00:15:32   to not have a subwoofer.

00:15:33   And to be okay with that is kind of freeing.

00:15:36   It's like, yeah,

00:15:37   it's the best it could possibly be.

00:15:39   "Okay."

00:15:39   Again, it's the living room setup, right?

00:15:41   Like, first of all, that is mostly used for TV.

00:15:44   I still want it to sound very good for music,

00:15:45   but it honestly is mostly used for TV,

00:15:47   and it sounds very good enough for TV for us.

00:15:51   And I even ran this by Tiff,

00:15:53   like when we started having all these discussions

00:15:54   and everyone's telling us,

00:15:55   "You have to get a standard channel.

00:15:56   "You have to get a standard channel.

00:15:57   "You can't use the stereo mix, it's terrible."

00:16:00   I asked Tiff, I'm like, "Hey, you wanna do all this stuff?

00:16:02   "It'll apparently sound better."

00:16:03   She's like, "No, that's it, just no."

00:16:05   And I'm like, "Okay, really, I don't either."

00:16:07   So I don't even know why I'm asking.

00:16:08   So there you go, no, we don't want it.

00:16:11   But yeah, I do understand it would be better.

00:16:13   But there are different factors here also,

00:16:16   like how we want it to look, how we actually use it,

00:16:19   how we actually live, so that's different.

00:16:21   When it comes to my headphones, on the other hand,

00:16:24   I actually recently bought a second pair

00:16:28   of my awesome best headphones in the world headphones,

00:16:32   the HiFi Man HG6, because they were discontinued

00:16:35   a couple years ago, and you can't get 'em anymore.

00:16:38   So I actually bought a used pair on a forum

00:16:40   that was in really like brand new condition basically.

00:16:42   And so now I have a backup of those

00:16:43   and of course I brought one here.

00:16:45   So because we're in the middle of a huge line,

00:16:48   a huge run of new fish shows.

00:16:50   I'm not gonna listen to that on my crap headphones.

00:16:52   I wanna listen to those on my awesome headphones.

00:16:54   So here I am.

00:16:55   - Right.

00:16:56   Right.

00:16:58   - In the middle of a huge run of fish shows

00:17:00   that before you finish that sentence,

00:17:01   it's like are the fish spawning?

00:17:03   Are they coming up onto the shore

00:17:05   and leaping into your house?

00:17:06   Like no, no, pH.

00:17:07   Well, yeah, well only one of them is good. But is this the thing that happens is like the weather like during the summer

00:17:13   That's when the fish shows come

00:17:15   Yeah

00:17:18   Crabs they just crawl across the landscape and lo there was fish

00:17:24   This surely, you know the Christmas Island crabs am I getting that right? Do you know what I'm talking about? You're asking us

00:17:34   Yeah, you're asking the wrong persons person person people

00:17:38   I think people's the word grabs if you have never googled Christmas Island crabs

00:17:42   You need to do that after whatever pause the show Google Christmas on crabs you should watch

00:17:47   The videos and look at some of the pictures then come back. Oh my god. You have to keep doing the show

00:17:54   Oh my god, what is that? What is going on? Why are they doing this? That's when the fish comes and

00:18:03   That's the representation of gigabytes of live music of songs that never end.

00:18:09   Oh my god, there's waves and waves of these things.

00:18:12   I see waves is a very good song.

00:18:14   And there's like three lyrics and then just a lot of guitar.

00:18:17   Oh my god.

00:18:18   Got your meat stick right here.

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00:20:14   We got a lot of people, a lot of, a lot of people write in with opinions about bicycles.

00:20:19   Who knew that so many people who listen to this show had opinions about bicycles?

00:20:23   But there are a lot of people that do.

00:20:26   And one of the things that was striking to me, and I wasn't really paying close attention

00:20:29   to the feedback to this because, quite frankly, I don't care.

00:20:32   However, a ton of people wrote in to say that Isla Bikes, that's I-S-L-A, which is apparently

00:20:40   a UK company, so this is www.ilabikes.co.uk, and they have a US distributor somewhere,

00:20:48   I think in Portland because Portland or somewhere in there abouts. Of course it's in Portland.

00:20:53   Right exactly. So anyways almost unanimously almost everyone who rode in said oh you should

00:21:00   get an Isla bike they're the best. They're expensive but they're the best. So I actually

00:21:03   took a note that when Declan is of age we need to look at these Isla bikes because there

00:21:08   was not a single person that said oh don't get an Isla they're overrated blah blah blah.

00:21:12   No everyone said get them. So we'll put a link in the show notes to their UK based website

00:21:18   And then what is this video that I presume John put in?

00:21:20   - Oh, that was just the pronunciation for the video

00:21:22   that I saw was cute.

00:21:23   We did get tons of suggestions.

00:21:24   The first one, they first started coming in,

00:21:25   I'm like, boy, we'll have lots of links to the show notes.

00:21:27   I'll put links to all these people's recommended

00:21:29   bike manufacturers, but then there were just too many.

00:21:31   Like there were just too many things.

00:21:32   So it's by, we just went with the majority rules.

00:21:35   I love bikes, got the most recommendations.

00:21:38   Second most recommendations was Wombikes,

00:21:40   W-O-O-M bikes.com.

00:21:43   I think they have a US location

00:21:45   'cause the URL I have here is us.wombikes.com.

00:21:47   There were a ton of other places.

00:21:50   These are both obscure.

00:21:51   Some people were recommending less obscure things

00:21:54   like REI and specialized.

00:21:55   But a lot of, you know, anyway, bottom line is,

00:21:58   people are finding bikes that they find satisfying.

00:22:01   But we'll just put these two links in

00:22:03   if you're looking for ones that had the majority

00:22:05   of parents and/or bike nerds recommending them.

00:22:09   It was these two.

00:22:10   - Yeah, well, and there were a ton of bike recommendations

00:22:15   for what I should get,

00:22:16   not just what I should get for my son,

00:22:17   but also what I should get.

00:22:19   I think what I've decided,

00:22:20   and this is based on not actually riding any of these yet,

00:22:24   what I want is very, very low maintenance and simplicity.

00:22:27   So I basically came down to a few things

00:22:30   that became things that I really consider requirements

00:22:33   that end up ruling out most of what people recommend,

00:22:36   also preferences.

00:22:37   So because I'm doing most of my riding in a beach town,

00:22:40   for instance, I wanted two-inch tires,

00:22:43   not the little skinny one-inch ones

00:22:44   that are better for going fast on roads,

00:22:47   I want big two inch ones so that it's more comfortable,

00:22:50   it's better if I have to go on the edge of one of the walks

00:22:54   and go into a little packed sand for a second,

00:22:56   I won't immediately just stop and fall over

00:22:58   like a skin tire might, so stuff like that.

00:23:01   So basically my list of requirements became

00:23:03   I want something that could accommodate two inch tires

00:23:06   with fenders and the big ones are

00:23:09   I want belt drive instead of a chain

00:23:12   and I want there to be no, oh god,

00:23:15   I don't know how this is pronounced, derailleur, derailleur?

00:23:18   Derailleur, however, derailleur, whatever that thing is,

00:23:21   the little thing, yeah, whatever the thing is

00:23:23   that moves the gears.

00:23:24   - You want an internal geared hub and a belt drive,

00:23:28   you're so trendy, like you've never had a bike

00:23:30   with any one of these things,

00:23:31   but you already know that you want them

00:23:32   because somebody told you that a belt drive

00:23:33   is better than a chain.

00:23:35   - Well because--

00:23:36   - Internal is better than derailleur.

00:23:37   - Well, okay, first of all, because the bike I have here now

00:23:40   that came in the house in the basement

00:23:43   is a rusty old mountain bike that has a derailleur

00:23:45   and a rusty old chain.

00:23:46   - Yeah, but when they work, they work fine.

00:23:48   Believe me, they're fine.

00:23:49   - No, it's not fine, 'cause now we have better things.

00:23:53   It was fine when I was a kid when I had my mountain bike

00:23:55   when I was in high school.

00:23:57   - Modern bikes with derailleurs, I swear to you,

00:23:59   are absolutely fine.

00:24:00   They're, don't use your, anyway, internal gear, fine,

00:24:03   whatever, I haven't used them either.

00:24:04   I can't say that they're bad, I'm just saying,

00:24:06   don't poll them as hard and fast requirements.

00:24:08   - The really funny thing, Jon,

00:24:09   is that they now have bike CVTs.

00:24:11   - Oh my God. - Oh yeah, yeah.

00:24:12   - Look up NuVinci, and there's a CVT that's,

00:24:16   it's like about the same, it seems like it's about

00:24:17   in the same price tier as like a decent,

00:24:19   like 11-speed internal hub.

00:24:20   I just thought like, oh my God, if I get a CVT,

00:24:23   John will die, like, (laughs)

00:24:26   I will never hear the end of it.

00:24:28   - It'll be, well you already, I mean,

00:24:30   I was just thinking about this the other day.

00:24:32   Both of you are slowly, slowly fading from the manuals.

00:24:35   Marco doesn't even have any anymore.

00:24:36   Casey, well I guess you just replaced

00:24:38   a non-manual with a non-manual still.

00:24:40   - Exactly.

00:24:41   - I'm the only one who's holding strong here.

00:24:42   Anyway, you can take your CVT and just pretend it has gears

00:24:45   just like the software does in most modern cars.

00:24:47   Just make engine revving noises.

00:24:49   - Yeah, so basically, so my short list right now,

00:24:52   I'm still looking at various things.

00:24:54   Some of the headliners are Priority, the Priority company.

00:24:59   And I actually ordered a Priority Coast

00:25:01   to have here at the Beach House

00:25:02   for like a general purpose bike

00:25:04   'cause we have lots of people here.

00:25:06   Tif wants to ride one also,

00:25:08   So I figure I'll get this, try it out.

00:25:10   It's belt drive, fixed gear, coaster brake.

00:25:13   So it's very simple.

00:25:14   It's also fairly affordable, it's like 400 bucks.

00:25:17   So I'm getting that to try it out.

00:25:19   At the high end, if I get into this

00:25:20   and I want a nice bike, probably for home,

00:25:23   I am very, very taken by the Budnitz bicycles,

00:25:27   or I assume it's pronounced Budnitz.

00:25:29   They're pretty expensive, but they're very nice.

00:25:31   And they basically make exactly what I want.

00:25:34   So I'm gonna try to find a showroom

00:25:35   and try one of those out if I want a nice bike for home.

00:25:38   It's probably a little expensive for the beach.

00:25:40   So for the beach, I'm looking at priority.

00:25:43   Honorable mention for Breezer and Electra,

00:25:47   everyone recommended these two brands.

00:25:49   And I would like to investigate them, like to see them.

00:25:52   Neither of them really make what I want.

00:25:55   Like they don't have all those things as a combination.

00:25:57   But yeah, both Breezer and Electra look really, really good.

00:26:01   Also everyone says Trek, you know,

00:26:02   there's a reason why Trek is so big and well known.

00:26:04   I find the amount of branding on Trek's bikes

00:26:08   a little bit garish.

00:26:09   Like, they'll cross the diagonal bar in the frame,

00:26:12   it just has those giant letters that say Trek!

00:26:15   Like, I don't really want that.

00:26:17   Like, I want something a little more low-key and subtle.

00:26:19   - Maybe get a Cannondale, they're subtle.

00:26:21   Do they still make those?

00:26:22   - Yes, they do.

00:26:23   - That's all of them.

00:26:24   - Yeah, and yeah, so again, wanting a belt drive,

00:26:28   internal gearing, two-inch tires, and minimal branding,

00:26:32   that rules out a lot of what people suggested.

00:26:35   (laughs)

00:26:37   So I will follow up if I buy anything more.

00:26:42   I'm gonna do the priority for the next few days

00:26:44   and then whenever it arrives, try that out.

00:26:47   And then if I love it, I'll just use that.

00:26:50   If I hate it, it'll be the Tif/Spare bike here

00:26:53   and I'll keep dropping.

00:26:54   - Wow.

00:26:55   - No, she wants it. - So generous of you.

00:26:56   - All right, one more question on bikes.

00:26:59   Why do you want fenders?

00:27:01   because the drainage on this island is not very good.

00:27:04   There's often very large puddles that I have to drive through

00:27:07   so I just don't want it to splash back up on my back.

00:27:10   Oh, and for everybody who's sending me the Ikea bike,

00:27:12   I did look at the Ikea Slada bike.

00:27:15   It is belt drive, it has internal two-speed gear.

00:27:18   It is, in my opinion, one of the most boring-looking bikes

00:27:23   I've ever seen.

00:27:24   I would like a bike to have some visual personality.

00:27:26   It doesn't, but not to scream its brand name

00:27:29   in giant letters on the frame,

00:27:30   But to have like, maybe a color that isn't just black and grey, like that would be nice.

00:27:35   You know, some kind of color.

00:27:37   Says the guy who buys black cars.

00:27:40   My car is bright red!

00:27:41   Mmm, this one was.

00:27:43   Although you know what though, this Priority Beach Cruiser bike that I ordered, it does happen to be white.

00:27:50   You know, it's funny Marco, that can happen to a person from time to time, can't it?

00:27:54   It was the only good color.

00:27:56   Funny how that is, Marco! You know, it can happen to a person from time to time, can't it?

00:28:03   [laughing]

00:28:05   You are the worst.

00:28:07   Ayayay, that's funny.

00:28:09   I can't wait to see pictures of you flow by on Instagram on your delightful white bike.

00:28:14   It honestly, it looks really good in white.

00:28:16   White is not a bad bike color. It's a terrible car color.

00:28:19   It's not a bad bike color.

00:28:20   I think this bike looks super dorky.

00:28:22   Which one, the Priority Coast that I ordered?

00:28:24   Mm-hmm.

00:28:25   It does, yes.

00:28:26   super dorky.

00:28:27   - This looks like a beach bike to me.

00:28:29   - It's a beach bike, yes.

00:28:30   And this company makes some, they make other varieties,

00:28:33   these priority bikes, they make other varieties

00:28:35   that are almost what I want.

00:28:37   Like the Continuomonics and the Classic Plus,

00:28:41   Gotham Edition, like they're almost what I want,

00:28:43   but they only have skinny tires.

00:28:45   And, 'cause they're made for commuters and stuff.

00:28:47   So yeah, I'm probably not gonna do that,

00:28:51   but I don't know.

00:28:52   Anyway, so this could be going on with us forever,

00:28:54   but we are in a huge hurry because we don't have any time tonight.

00:28:57   We really need to talk about all these Apple rumors because I'm sure no one's heard enough

00:29:02   about them on other podcasts yet.

00:29:04   Well there's that too.

00:29:06   We should also mention there's one other link in the show notes with regard to bikes.

00:29:08   Huffy apparently is being eaten by Walmart.

00:29:11   Do you want to explain this, John?

00:29:13   This is actually tangential to the larger Walmart issue.

00:29:16   A lot of stories about what is ruined by companies involved them pivoting to sell to super stores

00:29:24   because that's where all the money is and then having to make crappier and crappier

00:29:26   things and getting squeezed by the super stores that demand that you take smaller and smaller

00:29:30   profit margins and that's this Huffy story is actually something different it's where

00:29:34   Huffy got into a deal with Walmart and didn't realize how many bikes they'd actually sell

00:29:38   through Walmart and they couldn't actually manufacture them so they they let their competitors

00:29:42   manufacture them and sell them to Walmart and make the money from them anyway Walmart

00:29:46   is bad and we should all feel bad. But a lot of this is another bit of feedback from Ryan

00:29:54   Rickhard who said that Schwinn and Mongoose both pivoted to be bargain basement crap for

00:29:58   Walmart and Target. You know a lot of these companies the name remains kind of like Atari

00:30:03   or Commodore like the Mongoose name remains but it shares nothing with the brand of my

00:30:08   youth. You know everything about it the way the bikes are designed what they're made out

00:30:12   of where they're assembled, what their target market is, everything is just, you know, so

00:30:17   yeah, that's a shame.

00:30:19   And you can kind of tell by just looking at them, but yeah, superstores, and yet another

00:30:23   thing superstores have tried to ruin, bicycles.

00:30:26   I'm sorry, Jon.

00:30:29   It is what it is.

00:30:30   Jon, would you like to save face on your Christmas story line that you tried to quote?

00:30:36   The ATP references did me the favor of looking it up.

00:30:41   It's from IMDb and I always like, here's what I, whenever I look up movie quotes a lot,

00:30:45   because I want to get them right, it's important for me to get them right and to revalidate

00:30:48   the correct memory because very often I have a lot of movie quotes in my head and they

00:30:53   mutate over time.

00:30:54   As you repeat them, they change a little bit.

00:30:56   And so like 15 years into quoting something, you're like super duper sure it's one way

00:30:59   because you've said it a thousand times, right?

00:31:01   But it's changed like through a game of telephone only it's been inside your head the whole

00:31:05   time, right?

00:31:06   inside your head. Anyway, I always want to look them up, but I don't trust in the

00:31:10   internet text of someone like "oh here's this famous quote from this movie"

00:31:13   because text is not the movie, you know, the map is not the territory. I need to

00:31:18   see the video. I need to see the clip from the movie. And obviously that can be

00:31:22   doctored too, and I weep for our children who will be able to trust video even

00:31:26   less than we do due to the easy ability to synthesize audio and video. Sorry kids.

00:31:31   Anyway, that's progress for you. But according to IMDb, the upper handball side,

00:31:35   The line I was trying to quote last time from A Christmas Story is, "The greatest Christmas

00:31:40   gift I had ever received or ever would receive."

00:31:43   I think I missed the "had."

00:31:44   "The greatest Christmas gift I had ever received or would ever receive."

00:31:48   Anyway, there it is.

00:31:50   Nobody cares but me, but I do care.

00:31:52   Awesome.

00:31:53   That should be the title of my biography.

00:31:56   "Nobody cares but me, but I do care," the John Sir Q's story.

00:32:00   That's perfect.

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00:33:58   The good news is not a lot happened this week. So we can move right along. No, things have

00:34:10   happened, my friends. Things have happened. So let me do my best job as chief summarizer-in-chief

00:34:16   and kind of do a 50,000-foot summary, and then we'll dig into the details, which inevitably

00:34:20   means you two will interrupt me in about sentence three, and I will never get to complete my

00:34:25   But there was a HomePod firmware that was posted to the place one would expect HomePod firmware to be.

00:34:35   Do you guys say firmware or firmwares? I would say firmware as the plural.

00:34:39   You would say firmwares? Like softwares?

00:34:42   Well, that's why I would say firmware. But for a fleeting moment there, I just thought, "Well, should it be firmwares?"

00:34:47   No, it shouldn't be.

00:34:48   Wait, isn't "wares" how you're supposed to pronounce W-A-R-E-Z?

00:34:52   Oh, yes, that is true. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:34:54   - Yeah, that's a Z, but that's not what we're talking about.

00:34:56   - Did you ever say it that way in your head growing up?

00:34:58   'Cause I always said Juarez and...

00:35:00   (laughing)

00:35:00   - You also say Mo.

00:35:02   Juarez and Mo.

00:35:03   - Juarez.

00:35:05   - No, no, there's a different place in Mexico, I think.

00:35:08   - No, I definitely said Weirs in my head.

00:35:10   Oh my word. - Yeah, I definitely

00:35:11   said Weirs too.

00:35:12   - I was gonna say you should cut this,

00:35:14   but no, this is worth it now.

00:35:15   (laughing)

00:35:16   So we gotta keep it in.

00:35:18   All right, so anyway.

00:35:19   So wherever you would expect the HomePod firmware,

00:35:21   singular yet plural, to be,

00:35:24   is where they found somebody had stumbled upon

00:35:27   firmware download.

00:35:28   And so a couple of people seemed to grab onto that,

00:35:32   well, many people, but particularly a couple of people

00:35:34   seemed to grab on this and start digging it apart.

00:35:36   A friend of the show--

00:35:38   - Ferwaras.

00:35:38   (laughing)

00:35:41   - Can you concentrate?

00:35:43   We're professionals.

00:35:44   - That's a seven second ago joke, Mark.

00:35:45   Keep up.

00:35:46   (laughing)

00:35:48   - All right, let's bring it back together, kids.

00:35:51   Bring it back together.

00:35:52   So two people really dug into this in particular.

00:35:55   And the two people were Steve Trouton-Smith,

00:35:58   who is a dear friend of the show,

00:36:00   and Guillermo Rambo, who also did a lot of digging on this.

00:36:05   And so they found a lot of interesting stuff.

00:36:08   And the highlights were an image that is for an iPhone

00:36:12   that is code named D22,

00:36:14   that looks like the image that we've seen off and on

00:36:18   of this supposed iPhone Pro,

00:36:20   where it seems to be an edge-to-edge screen.

00:36:22   There's like a little notch at the top,

00:36:24   which presumably holds the speaker and the FaceTime camera.

00:36:27   There was some information about how apparently

00:36:32   there will be front-facing IR camera

00:36:34   that presumably looks to be for face detection

00:36:39   and a bunch of other stuff too.

00:36:41   But that's kind of the quick, quick, quick summary.

00:36:43   So how would we like to dig into this?

00:36:46   - I'll tell you one way we did not wanna dig into this

00:36:48   is by spraying bug spray on our legs earlier

00:36:51   so I could weed whack all the tick-infested grass

00:36:53   out in front of the house,

00:36:55   and then coming inside, doing a podcast

00:36:56   with you fine gentlemen, putting my hands on my legs,

00:37:00   and then remember my eyes.

00:37:01   - Ooh, that's not wise.

00:37:03   Do you need a moment to collect yourself?

00:37:05   - It's slowly going away.

00:37:06   I think I might be okay.

00:37:08   - Or you might go blind soon.

00:37:09   - Next time, just accept the bug bites.

00:37:11   - Well, there's ticks out there.

00:37:12   I don't want any tick bites.

00:37:14   (laughs)

00:37:15   Oh, God, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna try not to touch my face.

00:37:17   I'm like, "I'll just put it on my legs. That way it won't be a problem for the rest of

00:37:20   the night like it is when you put it on your whole body." Because all you really need for

00:37:23   ticks is to put it on your feet and legs.

00:37:26   I found one tick on me on Long Island just a couple days ago and it was not on my legs.

00:37:30   Yikes. All right. I don't want to hear the rest of that story.

00:37:34   Yeah, this sounds super ominous.

00:37:36   It had not bitten me yet. It was still crawling trying to find a place to bite.

00:37:39   That's good.

00:37:40   I removed it with prejudice.

00:37:41   With prejudice.

00:37:42   All right, so what do we think of D22?

00:37:48   So I think, well, here's a couple things.

00:37:50   So this, well, I don't know if we want to go into the leaking things.

00:37:54   I guess we'll go into that at the end.

00:37:55   But the information revealed, once you leak the HomePod firmware, people think, well,

00:38:00   so what?

00:38:01   Who cares if they leak the HomePod firmware?

00:38:02   Well, the HomePod's not out yet.

00:38:03   We already know what it is.

00:38:04   It's a speaker-turdy thing.

00:38:07   Why would we get any information from that?

00:38:10   And it's because it runs iOS.

00:38:11   iOS has a bunch of crap in it and normally that crap is removed from

00:38:15   builds that they release to the public even in the betas they remove all the

00:38:18   stuff that they don't want you to see what might they not want you to see

00:38:22   icons frameworks you know the names of symbols program retype stuff and the

00:38:30   people who pulled down this homepot firmware you know extract that stuff

00:38:34   they look at all the frameworks and look at the names of the frameworks and the

00:38:36   names of the functions and the symbols that are in them look at all of the

00:38:40   resources for different kinds of icons and graphics and stuff like that that

00:38:44   appears in dialog boxes and in the UI and you can learn a tremendous amount

00:38:48   without even executing any of this code just because it happens to be iOS and

00:38:52   this build doesn't have all this stuff excluded from it. So we learned "learned"

00:38:56   quote-unquote a lot of interesting things just by looking at the framework

00:39:00   names and the symbols and there's the whole frameworks having to do and you

00:39:03   know classes and methods having to do with things about face recognition and

00:39:06   and recognizing different kinds of faces, and why would that be in there? Well, we all

00:39:11   have the rumors about it recognizing your face, you put two and two together, and you say,

00:39:14   "That's probably what that is." Down to the point where you're looking at attributes on classes that

00:39:18   say, like, inset and border radius and stuff that's sort of confirming the idea that the entire edge

00:39:24   to edge screen will be addressable with sort of curves around the edges, you know? And classes

00:39:30   that might indicate how they might handle the home button at the bottom of the screen and displaying

00:39:35   things there and stuff like that. So it's kind of tea leaf reading in that we don't have any actual

00:39:40   leaked hardware for the phone or anything like that. What we just have is a bunch of

00:39:44   symbols and functions. But if you're a programmer and you're familiar with UIKit and the rest of

00:39:48   iOS and just programming in general, you can kind of piece together a surprisingly detailed picture

00:39:54   of how this new phone might work based on the iOS that was released as part of the HomePod,

00:40:02   you know, HomePod's OS release. And so it's kind of a weird, kind of a weird leak. But it just goes

00:40:08   to show that like anything on the internet, you don't like it. Security through obscurity is no

00:40:15   security at all. It never has been, but in the age of the internet, even less so. But I was fascinated

00:40:20   to see the slow leak of people pulling out all the different details of the OS to the point where

00:40:27   There was a really good blog post by Alan Pike where he puts it all together and says,

00:40:32   "Based on everything that we've seen, here's one way that I think the theoretical phone

00:40:36   might work from a software perspective."

00:40:39   So we've got hardware rumors, and then we've got a leak of the HomePod thing, and then

00:40:44   from that, synthesize this entire complete picture of one way that the OS might work.

00:40:49   Now, it could be entirely wrong.

00:40:51   It could be something different than this, but I was pretty impressed by this.

00:40:56   you know, just the normal parts leak that you get plus a bunch of class dumps and icon

00:41:03   files, and now we have like a complete iPhone Pro possible scenario supported by all the

00:41:11   available leaked evidence that I think actually is pretty cool. If they don't do this, I hope

00:41:15   they do something just as cool because I read this thing and I'm like, "That A makes sense,

00:41:20   B fits with everything that we've been leaked, and C is pretty neat."

00:41:23   - Yeah, I completely agree.

00:41:25   - Yeah, I mean like this, it does like,

00:41:28   I'm not a fan of the idea of this weird cutout

00:41:32   into the screen with the cameras and everything.

00:41:34   Like I don't like that, it seems like a weird hack.

00:41:38   But if they're going to do it,

00:41:40   this looks like a really cool way to do it.

00:41:42   Like with the whole idea of having a split status bar

00:41:45   such that basically you,

00:41:48   it's almost as if the screen's not cut out.

00:41:50   It's almost like, if applications don't really

00:41:52   have access to that area, or if you only get it in things

00:41:56   like overscroll areas under navigation bars

00:42:00   and stuff like that, then it's still weird,

00:42:04   but it's a clever hack.

00:42:06   It's a good question about things like where the clock goes

00:42:11   and what about stuff that won't fit in the cutouts.

00:42:13   Like, there's a lot in the status bar these days.

00:42:17   Things like not having--

00:42:18   - Not as much as on Android, though.

00:42:20   - Well, that's true, yeah.

00:42:21   I was just about to say the same thing.

00:42:23   Oh my goodness, looking at my coworkers' Android phones

00:42:27   that have just a mountain of icons up there.

00:42:30   It's like a ticker tape. - Out of the box they have that.

00:42:31   My sister got a new Android phone that I just saw.

00:42:33   Like fresh out of the box, no weird stuff on it.

00:42:36   A Samsung Android phone, 100 icons in the status bar.

00:42:39   I may be overestimating, but only slightly.

00:42:41   - Oh, it's so true.

00:42:42   It's like a ticker tape of icons.

00:42:43   And I think it's bad.

00:42:45   - That's like every Mac user you've ever seen in your office

00:42:47   has 100 icons in their menu bar, Casey.

00:42:50   No, I have fewer than most, thank you very much.

00:42:52   You just are hating on the i-STAT menus

00:42:54   that I have up there.

00:42:55   But no, I've like the fact,

00:42:58   if you have to install Bartender,

00:43:00   which I'm sure is a very great app,

00:43:01   if you have to install Bartender,

00:43:03   you have bigger problems, my friend,

00:43:05   than just moving some of them out of your menu bar.

00:43:08   Like you should just get them out into, oh God,

00:43:11   I hate apps that force a menu bar icon at Trash Me Bananas.

00:43:14   - Oh, so actually I've derailed myself

00:43:17   looking at the top of this notes.

00:43:19   There's a couple of, I mean, look, looking at the symbols

00:43:21   and everything and having face recognition symbols,

00:43:23   like that is not as big a slam dunk as people think.

00:43:25   If we didn't already have the face recognition rumor,

00:43:28   there's all sorts of weird symbols on there.

00:43:29   And maybe it wouldn't ship, maybe it's not ready.

00:43:31   Like we didn't see, we didn't see the internal builds

00:43:33   of iOS 10, for all we know, these symbols could have been

00:43:35   in there in iOS 10, they just didn't make the cut,

00:43:37   you know, or something like that or whatever, right?

00:43:38   But we have all those other rumors

00:43:40   about being face recognition.

00:43:41   So this, you know, it all adds up, right?

00:43:43   The other part of this though, is all the rumors

00:43:46   about the little unibrow thing, the little notch, the cut.

00:43:48   I mean, we saw that little notch thing.

00:43:50   I think we talked about it when we were talking about

00:43:51   Touch ID being on the back

00:43:53   and how they're gonna do a screen thing edge to edge

00:43:55   and what they can and can embed in the screen.

00:43:57   And apparently they can embed like the cameras

00:43:59   and if there's gonna be an IR sensor

00:44:00   and the speaker and blah, blah, blah.

00:44:01   So there's this notch.

00:44:02   I think one of you, maybe Marco thought it was,

00:44:04   the notch just doesn't seem like an Apple thing to do

00:44:06   way back when, when we talked about it.

00:44:07   You know, it's not elegant.

00:44:09   Like you just said before, like the notch seems weird.

00:44:10   Doesn't it?

00:44:11   Like, well, wouldn't it be great

00:44:12   if the whole thing was screened?

00:44:13   It would be, oh, but we can't quite pull it off.

00:44:15   So what can we do?

00:44:16   well, we'll do the best we can and leave this little notch, right?

00:44:20   And that's always been the question.

00:44:21   Apple wouldn't do it unless they could do the whole screen.

00:44:23   They're not going to do a little notch thing.

00:44:24   Kind of like people saying Apple's not going to put a camera that causes a bulge, but they

00:44:28   totally did because it's more worth it to have a really good camera than to make the

00:44:32   back of it smooth, so camera bulge is here to stay.

00:44:35   And so in the HomePod firmware leak, there is an icon for D22 that is just, it's not

00:44:41   a picture of the new iPhone.

00:44:43   It's an icon, like a little vector drawing or whatever of the thing.

00:44:46   But it has to look iconic, it has to let you know by looking at this little icon, this

00:44:49   is the phone we're talking about.

00:44:51   So it just basically looks like a rounded rectangle I imagine for the 7 and 7+ sizes,

00:44:55   right?

00:44:56   But this one has the notch in it.

00:44:58   And it's the only thing in it, it is a rounded rectangle and the only distinguishing characteristic

00:45:01   other than the width and height and the border radius is the notch.

00:45:06   And so this is a pretty hard confirmation of that notch because they're not waffling

00:45:10   about whether there's going to be a notch at this point.

00:45:12   This icon is in there and it doesn't seem like they would have this thing, the code

00:45:17   name D22 is right on what you expect it to be.

00:45:19   So this thing is going to have a notch.

00:45:20   And that's weird.

00:45:21   And it's like the camera bump but even worse.

00:45:24   It's not as bad as Touch ID on the back but it is a weird thing to do.

00:45:27   And so Apple, rumors are that this all screen OLED phone has been in the works for a long

00:45:34   time and not that I'm saying it's behind schedule but I bet Apple would have loved to ship it

00:45:38   last year but they couldn't, it wasn't ready and now it's ready.

00:45:40   They're going with the notch.

00:45:41   So for me, from this leak, the most important thing about it is, notch is a go.

00:45:47   Get ready for notch.

00:45:48   Get ready to love the notch.

00:45:49   Get ready to deal with the notch.

00:45:50   Get ready to fix your application that gets screwed up when the notch is there.

00:45:55   Also on a past conversation about, "Hey, they changed the dots to be bars.

00:45:58   You think they did that to make room for the notch?"

00:46:01   And it was like, "Well, maybe, but we didn't even know if there's going to be a notch."

00:46:04   Well, there's going to be a notch.

00:46:05   So no more dots.

00:46:06   Back to bars makes perfect sense.

00:46:08   I think what I like about this leak though is that it gives us enough to be really interested

00:46:14   in this, but there's still so much that we don't know that we're only going to know once

00:46:19   we see the software running on the phone, which we're probably, which we're almost certainly

00:46:23   not going to see before the event.

00:46:25   So like even though we, like leading up to this we had the idea of a lot of the major

00:46:30   themes of this device leading up, you know, for almost the last year in all the rumors

00:46:35   and everything. But we didn't know many specifics and most of the things that we'd

00:46:40   see leaked or rumored or talked about here and there would be very vague and very unsure

00:46:46   of themselves and often times conflicting. And so now, even though this is now pretty

00:46:53   strong evidence of it being a certain way and so some of that surprise is now kind of

00:46:58   spoiled, what we have now learned, and again it's not like knowledge, it isn't a fact,

00:47:05   isn't a guarantee, it's just very strong evidence in a certain direction. But what

00:47:10   this nearly confirms is not something that was totally unknown to us. Like, there were

00:47:18   rumors of all these things. There were rumors of the notch, there were rumors of the face

00:47:24   detection type stuff and depth cameras and everything. All that stuff was rumored for

00:47:29   months and that was already becoming the dominant narrative of the rumors. That was becoming

00:47:34   and where most of them were coalescing and gathering.

00:47:38   So it didn't actually spoil much surprise.

00:47:43   It just says, all right, this group of the rumors,

00:47:47   which was already the predominant ones,

00:47:49   this is probably on the right path.

00:47:51   But there's still so many questions

00:47:54   that it's still very interesting to us.

00:47:56   And most of those questions are not going

00:47:58   to be answered until the event.

00:48:00   - They added some information too,

00:48:01   like again with the symbol dumps,

00:48:03   stuff that we wouldn't have known normally until the keynote because it's software based,

00:48:06   right? So there's a bunch of symbols having to do with apparently the camera detecting what it is

00:48:12   you're taking a picture of. You're taking a picture of a person. Is it a plant? Is it a sunset? Is it,

00:48:16   you know, whatever it might be. Most modern regular cameras have something, "Oh, I can tell

00:48:21   it's portrait versus landscape because I do simple face detection." But this was way more detailed.

00:48:25   I find the link to put all things in it. But it was like figuring out in a fairly detailed manner

00:48:30   what it is you're looking at.

00:48:32   And what will it do with that information

00:48:33   besides putting the word hot dog or not hot dog on the screen

00:48:35   like presumably you can adjust the camera

00:48:38   based on what it's looking at.

00:48:40   I get that reference.

00:48:41   It could metadata tag them or something.

00:48:44   I mean, who knows, but like those symbols are in there

00:48:46   for, you know, and there's all sorts of other stuff

00:48:48   about face detection or we assume about face detection

00:48:52   whereas the face is half covered,

00:48:54   the face is smiling or frowning or like all,

00:48:57   tons of symbols that only make sense if this phone with these set of sensors on it can

00:49:02   figure out way more about what it's looking at, whether it's looking at it to take a picture

00:49:06   or looking at it to unlock your phone or whatever, all these symbols indicate that there are

00:49:10   surely features somewhere in iOS 11 running on this phone that are based on the camera

00:49:16   having a much richer awareness of what's going on around it, also including presence detection,

00:49:20   are you in front of the phone or whatever.

00:49:22   So that I think added information.

00:49:23   None of that stuff had been rumored.

00:49:25   like wow, you know, the rumors are, oh, it's gonna have camera and a notch and an IR sensor

00:49:29   and a face detection unlock.

00:49:30   That's all the stuff that would leak.

00:49:32   But the keynote would be like, oh, and also, now that we have all those sensors, you know

00:49:36   what we can do?

00:49:37   We can know when you take a picture of a dog and tag it with dog and make the smart search

00:49:43   easier when you search for dog, even if you took a picture of the tip of the dog's tail,

00:49:47   we, you know, we figured that out.

00:49:48   And like, I don't know, like features like that are things normally we don't get to see

00:49:52   until the day of.

00:49:53   this is one of the biggest software leaks that has ever happened to Apple

00:49:56   because I think it reveals potentially so much about stuff that they're gonna

00:50:02   demo that they just assume no one would know about because in general the

00:50:05   software doesn't leak. I mean this is this is a given to the leak stuff this is

00:50:09   a pretty big leak in terms of just oops like we didn't mean to put this build

00:50:15   there by the way if you're wondering why why is this build accessible at all home

00:50:19   Pods have been testing on Apple employees and other people who are in the know have been testing home pods for a long time and

00:50:25   They have a feed for software updates

00:50:27   But that is a fee that is not accessible to the general public's only accessible to Apple employees, right?

00:50:32   Someone made a mistake and took the firmware that's supposed to go in that fee

00:50:37   That's only accessible to Apple employees and put it on the public facing one and that is a pretty big mistake

00:50:42   like it's kind of like taking you know, I don't know like

00:50:46   iOS 11 before any of the betas came out and putting in a publicly accessible URL on the internet and

00:50:51   Again, if the security through obscurity, it's like well you put something on the URL

00:50:56   That's accessible internet as long as no one knows the URL

00:50:58   It's like people are randomly typing in URLs to guess where your thing might be

00:51:02   That's exactly what they're doing and the URL was guessable because you just replace the word TV with the word audio in

00:51:07   an existing URL for the TV OS updates and guess what you got this and

00:51:13   Somebody had a really bad day at Apple and I feel bad because you know it's you're human you make mistakes

00:51:18   It just goes to show all the security and all these billions of dollars they spend

00:51:22   You know it's not I don't think this is a small delicious. Just someone someone made a mistake

00:51:27   We all like mistakes sometimes you leave a phone in a bar sometimes you sometimes you upload the

00:51:32   The unredacted version of the new iOS that includes all the secret symbols for your new super secret phone

00:51:40   Onto a public URL and so I feel I feel kind of bad

00:51:43   but I'm also kind of excited about exactly how much we were able to mine out of this and like Margo said and still and

00:51:49   Still we're not sure we still we have to wait for the keynote to see which things are which it's a it's a little bit

00:51:54   Of spoiling Christmas morning to know how you know because I can extrapolate so many things that could possibly be there

00:51:59   And the keynote will just be a narrowing but still pretty exciting

00:52:02   Do you um I don't have the link handy, but there maybe it was an Allen's

00:52:07   I don't think it was though. But anyways, there was someone who was critiquing. No, it was a different UI designer.

00:52:12   Critiquing what do you do with the notch? And there's like one of the approaches

00:52:18   is you pretend the notch isn't really there. And one of the approaches is you embrace the notch.

00:52:23   And I think it was Steve Trout and Smith that was saying, "Oh, I say embrace the notch.

00:52:27   You know, make it visible, make it plain." But from what I see on like, for example, Allen's post

00:52:33   Where it's just a big black bar and presumably this is OLED

00:52:37   So it would just kind of all blend in and there would just be this big gap in the center of the black bar

00:52:41   But you wouldn't necessarily be able to tell very well. What was there?

00:52:45   I think I like that at a glance more than this like embrace the notch make it white to the left and the right of the notch

00:52:51   What do you guys think about that? Let's start with Marco totally with you

00:52:56   I think the design that

00:52:58   makes the parts left and right of the notch just black

00:53:01   and makes it look like a big status bar,

00:53:04   that to me is by far the best looking option here.

00:53:07   And that is the one that I think they should

00:53:10   and hopefully will do.

00:53:12   But there is a risk, I don't know if it's a big risk,

00:53:15   there's a risk that the desire to have these overflow areas,

00:53:20   these overscroll areas in the UI,

00:53:24   someone had like, you know, when I was seven,

00:53:26   ever since I was seven, you've had like,

00:53:28   if you have a navigation bar or a toolbar in an interface,

00:53:31   you have the blurred version of the scroll view

00:53:35   in the middle kinda underhanging the top and bottom,

00:53:39   like it kinda overflows into those areas as you scroll.

00:53:41   I can see maybe the Apple UI designers

00:53:44   wanting to do more of that

00:53:45   with this new found screen real estate

00:53:47   and to have these new areas,

00:53:50   both the little tabs next to the status bar

00:53:53   and also the new presumed home button area at the bottom,

00:53:58   I could see those becoming just overscroll areas,

00:54:02   but I hope they don't do that.

00:54:03   I hope, if anything, if they wanna do that,

00:54:06   just make it the bottom one and not little tabs on top,

00:54:09   because having this big like, you know,

00:54:12   file card shaped UI I think looks weird.

00:54:15   I don't like having those two tabs at the top

00:54:17   be visibly like light colored UI.

00:54:21   I think it should just look like a big status bar,

00:54:23   and you shouldn't even really, really,

00:54:26   really think about the notch most of the time.

00:54:28   >> I agree.

00:54:29   >> So, as I think it was Steve Trout and Smith pointed this out, but I think people have

00:54:33   noted this as well.

00:54:34   The thing that we extracted, we, the thing that has been extracted by industrious hackers

00:54:40   from the firmware is an icon of the phone.

00:54:43   And it's supposed to be identifiable, so you look at that and you know, oh, they're talking

00:54:46   about whatever, the iPhone Pro or the iPhone 8, whatever this thing's going to be called.

00:54:50   So it needs to be a recognizable symbol at small sizes.

00:54:54   And the only distinguishing fixture of that icon is the notch.

00:54:57   So in order for people to look at that and say, "Oh, that means my phone," which is the

00:55:01   purpose of the icon, that notch has to be a distinguishing visual characteristics of

00:55:07   the phone as far as the users are concerned.

00:55:09   Otherwise that icon is not useful for identifying it.

00:55:11   So that could be as simple as, "Okay, well, it works exactly like you guys were just describing

00:55:16   when you use it.

00:55:17   We pretend it's not there and it's just like the status bar.

00:55:20   But the lock screen, for example, when we show your big lock screen picture, that shows

00:55:24   with the notch all the time.

00:55:25   Because that would make, you know, that's your first experience of turning on the phone,

00:55:29   you know, or seeing the lock screen or whatever, that, oh, it's got a notch, right?

00:55:32   If the notch goes away when you launch apps, you still recognize it as the phone with the

00:55:36   notch because that's what you see when you first turn it on.

00:55:39   But I think at the very least, Apple is embracing the notch to the degree that this icon is

00:55:46   representative.

00:55:47   mean you're gonna see it the whole time you're using it inside applications but

00:55:50   it does mean that they're embracing it somewhere probably in the lock screen

00:55:55   maybe also in springboard maybe also it I mean I'm trying to think of you know

00:56:01   if developers wanted to could they address it and show video in the notch

00:56:05   like overflow video like who knows how far developers would be able to go but

00:56:09   it seems clear to me that Apple in the same way they essentially embrace the

00:56:13   camera bump by saying we're not hiding it it's there it's a camera bump look at

00:56:17   There's going to be a notch and I think there has to be at least some context where the notch is absolutely visible and

00:56:23   Distinguishing and a distinguishing characteristic to people. I

00:56:26   Also would prefer like both of you. All right, fine. I see the notch I get your branding

00:56:32   I can identify my phone, but once I'm using the application

00:56:34   Don't you know, I don't I don't need it doesn't need to be emphasized

00:56:38   You can make it disappear with a nice status bar

00:56:40   Hopefully that's up to developers if developers want to do something fancy with the notch

00:56:43   maybe they can in the same way you can mess with the status bar in weird ways to

00:56:46   Varying degrees and old OSes couldn't you change the color of the status bar to anything you wanted back in the old days and they

00:56:52   Kind of clamp down on that

00:56:52   No, you could never you could have it be like white or black, but you could never have it be arbitrary colors

00:56:58   You could have a translucent one and kind of put like a window behind it

00:57:03   Yeah, you know to make it kind of fake to kind of fake it

00:57:06   But I don't know of any apps that really ever did that within success

00:57:10   Yeah, and actually you know either way they go with this

00:57:13   I think the bottom part of the screen is actually more interesting that gets into what Alan Pike was talking about so the top fine

00:57:18   We assume it's a status bar and there's some interesting

00:57:21   Things you can do by you know getting you know going bleeding the pixels up higher on the screen because it's almost edge-to-edge

00:57:28   Especially if you incorporate the notch into the status bar

00:57:30   But the action happens down at the bottom where all of a sudden you've got all the screen where there used to be a hardware home

00:57:35   Button and of course you can draw a software home button there

00:57:37   but you've got all this other space where you can draw things too.

00:57:39   What might you use that for?

00:57:41   And one of Alan Pike's suggestion is take your UI nav bar,

00:57:44   whatever that class is called,

00:57:45   and take the current awkward arrangement with lots of white space and take those

00:57:51   navigation controls like done or edit or whatever,

00:57:53   those little words that are up in the corner that are hard to reach in your big

00:57:55   phone and shove them down next to the home button because now that's all a

00:58:00   screen and it's actually easier to reach.

00:58:02   There's been a lot of articles recently about how it's easier to reach the bottom

00:58:05   of your really big phone with your thumb and the top of the really big phone.

00:58:07   so bottom navigation becomes more preferable than it was back in the days of the original

00:58:12   iPhone size or even the 5 size.

00:58:16   And it makes a lot of sense, like whether they do that or not, you look at that and

00:58:19   you go, "Oh, okay, well, that would work and it would make sense based on the design we

00:58:24   currently see in iOS 11 betas."

00:58:28   But maybe they won't do that.

00:58:29   Maybe what can you do with the bottom?

00:58:31   You've got a lot of pixels down there.

00:58:33   is surely going to reserve some of them for OS-related functions in the sort of default

00:58:38   case where you don't want to go full-bleed video or whatever.

00:58:43   You could do interesting stuff down there instead of just showing a circle where you

00:58:46   put your thumb, presumably to use the Touch ID sensor that may or may not be buried under

00:58:51   the screen.

00:58:52   Yeah, it's funny because I feel like we have learned a lot in this leak, but I think you

00:59:01   guys are right that I don't know that we've learned all that much but we've more gotten

00:59:07   some soft confirmation of a lot of the things that were already suspected and though I still

00:59:12   think this is the second biggest leak that I've ever witnessed as compared to the what was it the

00:59:18   iPhone 4 that was found in the bar. So I think that still takes the cake for the biggest leak but

00:59:25   Man, this is a close second and it's fascinating.

00:59:29   Like I feel kind of bad for the Apple developers,

00:59:33   like the developers within Apple

00:59:34   that have been working on this stuff

00:59:35   and have been really sweating this

00:59:38   and were hoping for the big splash surprise.

00:59:40   Like that article was, I think it was that article

00:59:42   that floated around like a month ago that talked about this.

00:59:45   But anyway, or maybe it was on the talk show live.

00:59:48   Maybe that's what it was, it doesn't matter.

00:59:49   Somewhere they were saying, you know, really,

00:59:50   it's a bummer for the employees

00:59:51   when something leaks, the other employees.

00:59:53   And that kind of stinks, but I do think it is fascinating and super cool how, you know,

00:59:59   a couple of developers in particular have been able to kind of figure out all of this

01:00:04   stuff just by going spelunking into the firmware.

01:00:08   And I should have expected something like this from a man with the surname of Rambo.

01:00:11   I mean, this is how the Rambo's work, right?

01:00:15   That's what we learned from the movies.

01:00:16   I didn't catch this before on our discussion of firmware, but like it's interesting to

01:00:20   me that with HomePod we reverted to the old nomenclature because back on the original iPhone

01:00:25   the iPhone came with firmware because it's a phone, phones don't run OS's silly, it's firmware

01:00:30   right? And obviously that's before you know it was called iPhone OS after that I believe and then it

01:00:36   switched to iOS right? But now then the HomePod because it's so wussy and doesn't have a screen

01:00:41   even though they've extracted a screen resolution as far as iOS is concerned a very small screen

01:00:46   resolution and potentially a number of addressable LEDs blah blah blah. Anyway,

01:00:51   now it's back to firmware. It's like, it's called, you know, the reason they got this in the URL is

01:00:57   they changed tvOS to audio OS. So if you want to give it a name tvOS runs on Apple TV, iOS runs on,

01:01:03   you know, iPhones and iPods and iPads, and audio OS runs on the HomePod. But we don't call it audio

01:01:11   OS, it's still, it's stuck in firmware. I guess you still got to start in firmware and work your

01:01:15   way up do we start referring you to your actual os update uh yeah that's a little bit weird i guess

01:01:22   they want to make it seem like an embedded thing it's also in case you were wondering about um

01:01:26   the amazon echo show and the potential uh we've discussed many times of apple's home

01:01:34   thing that sits in your home having a screen on it naming the thing audio os obviously does nothing

01:01:40   because you can rename it whenever you want they rename their rest all the time but it's a pretty

01:01:44   strong stake in the ground for this product, this product we already knew, but like in

01:01:47   case you're wondering do they expect the operating system to do a lot of displaying of pictures?

01:01:52   No it's called audio OS.

01:01:55   Like whether or not it has a screen that can show weird symbols or an addressable grid

01:01:59   of LEDs under a diffuser or whatever, the OS is all about audio.

01:02:04   Any other thoughts about all this?

01:02:06   Not really.

01:02:07   Sure there's stuff that I forgot to put in the notes but there was so much stuff that

01:02:11   was leaked and so many people digging into this that I just couldn't even keep up with

01:02:15   it.

01:02:16   Yeah, I feel like this should be like a four-hour conversation for us, but I really feel like

01:02:19   we've kind of touched on all of it.

01:02:22   So well, and also like, I mean, as Markham said before, everything that's in this leak

01:02:27   had been discussed before with the exception of a few additional symbols that lean towards

01:02:31   features that hadn't been, you know, that could have been imagined, but that hadn't

01:02:34   been thought about, you know, like the camera understanding what it's taking a picture of

01:02:36   and adjusting things, but you can extrapolate that from the sensors.

01:02:39   And it just shows how imagination plus the usual hardware supply chain leaks can get

01:02:46   us most of the way there anyway.

01:02:48   OLED we've known forever.

01:02:50   Screen edge to edge we've also known forever.

01:02:53   Face detection was a big leak.

01:02:56   And then IR sensors and stuff like that and how it's going to support it.

01:02:59   Touch ID in the screen versus the back is still up in the air.

01:03:02   Nothing in this.

01:03:03   It goes one way or the other, I think.

01:03:06   And then the HomePod leak would just nail all that down for us.

01:03:08   We were already talking about all those things.

01:03:10   So it's like, oh, I feel bad for the employees, blah, blah, blah.

01:03:11   Well, if this leak had not happened, we'd all be watching that keynote saying,

01:03:15   I can't wait to see the OLED phone that does face recognition with an edge

01:03:18   to edge screen, potentially with a notch in it.

01:03:20   Like we like we were already there.

01:03:22   It's just, you know, it's just confirming stuff where, you know, it's

01:03:25   it continues to be hard for Apple to be secretive about something

01:03:29   that it's going to build literally millions of like months ahead of time.

01:03:33   Like someone's going to build them.

01:03:34   Human beings are going to build them.

01:03:36   And this information has value to many different parties,

01:03:39   the least of which is a bunch of Apple nerds.

01:03:41   Like it has values like people who are designing cases

01:03:44   or making clones or competitive.

01:03:46   Like it's really hard to keep this kind of secret.

01:03:51   And Apple continues to prove that.

01:03:54   That no matter how much money you have,

01:03:55   no matter how careful you are,

01:03:57   we're gonna find out about your phone.

01:04:01   Mac Pro is gonna be pretty secret though, let me tell you.

01:04:03   Yeah.

01:04:04   (both laughing)

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01:05:30   What do you have, Jon, about this nickname that Gruber reported?

01:05:34   The Ferrari nickname?

01:05:35   Yeah, iPhone D22's nickname may have been "Ferrari."

01:05:39   Oh yeah, that makes perfect sense, because we've all been talking about this phone in

01:05:44   that kind of way as, they're gonna make phones like the 7 and the 7 Plus, and they're gonna

01:05:49   be fine phones, and those are the normal ones, but then there's the fancy one.

01:05:53   The fancy one is, you know, edge-to-edge screen and made of exotic materials and gonna be

01:05:57   more expensive, and you know, Ferrari's the perfect name for it.

01:05:59   It's not the phone that everybody's going to have.

01:06:02   A lot of the stories and a lot of groupers writing about it has been about how A) this

01:06:06   will be fun to be more expensive because why make it the same price as the other ones?

01:06:10   You're going to segment the market like good, better, best, or whatever.

01:06:14   And B) how they probably can't make as many of these.

01:06:17   Like if this was the only iPhone that potentially they wouldn't be able to make as many of

01:06:21   them because one or more parts in it are not able to be manufactured in volume.

01:06:27   meta point about the Ferrari phone is like if Apple can only ever put technology in its

01:06:32   phones that it can make 60 million of like for launch day or whatever it's going to be

01:06:37   at a disadvantage against competitors that only have to make like 2 million phones. If

01:06:40   you can make 2 million phones you're like I just need 2 million of this special awesome

01:06:43   screen and Apple's like oh that screen is awesome we would love to put that screen in

01:06:47   our phone and they're like sorry we can only make 2 million of those and Apple's like well

01:06:49   we need 60 million. Well we can't make them any of that screen so you can't put that screen

01:06:53   phone. So this gives them, in addition to segmenting the market, like, "Oh, you want

01:06:57   to pay even more for an iPhone? Apple is happy to accommodate you. Yay! What can we put in

01:07:01   this phone that's worth the extra money?" Well, we can make it look cooler, we can have

01:07:05   fancy features like the face detection and the edge-to-edge screen, and we can put components

01:07:09   in it that we can only make 12 million of, or 15 million of, instead of 60 million. I'm

01:07:14   making these numbers up, but like, whatever. And the Ferrari name fits with that. Ferraris.

01:07:20   that cost more than other cars, they make fewer of them, and they're really fancy.

01:07:24   And Eddy Cue is on the board of Ferrari, so everything fits.

01:07:28   It all works.

01:07:29   Ay yi yi.

01:07:30   All right, so, no more thoughts on this leak.

01:07:33   I feel bad for the responsible party, though.

01:07:35   My goodness.

01:07:36   I can't tell if my water smells like DEET or if my hands smell like DEET that are handling

01:07:41   the water.

01:07:42   Stop eating bug spray, Marco.

01:07:44   It's going to affect the show eventually.

01:07:46   I can tell when Marco's drinking and I can tell when he's eating bug spray.

01:07:50   Yep, he is high as a kite.

01:07:52   I've been in the sun a lot today.

01:07:55   Fly away Marco.

01:07:57   Hey, there's no more iPods except the iPod Touch.

01:08:00   That could be only one.

01:08:02   Yeah, that's Highlander, John.

01:08:03   It's a Highlander reference.

01:08:04   Good job.

01:08:05   Yeah, it went over my head at least, don't worry.

01:08:07   I'm still okay.

01:08:08   I didn't get a reference.

01:08:09   Marco can't get there can be only one.

01:08:11   This is a new low, folks.

01:08:14   What is the most well-known reference that Marko will not get?

01:08:17   Highlander is now, the only one that's now in the lead.

01:08:21   If you're talking about most popular things that I haven't seen, you've got to go probably

01:08:27   Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter or maybe Star Trek.

01:08:30   But this is different.

01:08:32   I don't expect you to have seen Highlander.

01:08:34   We're not crazy here.

01:08:35   But you know that that is a reference to Highlander.

01:08:39   Like I said, a very popular internet meme reused many, many times.

01:08:42   You don't have to have ever seen the movie to know that that, anyway.

01:08:46   I think that's the top of leaderboard now, because I would say that is pretty well known.

01:08:52   Anyway, no more iPods.

01:08:56   Sometimes I forget they still make them.

01:08:57   Or they still made them.

01:08:58   Well, and I feel like that's the best time for Apple to discontinue a product quietly

01:09:03   like this is when half people who hear the news say, "Oh, they still made those?"

01:09:07   Yep.

01:09:08   probably is a good indicator that they killed it

01:09:11   in an appropriate time.

01:09:12   It was not too soon.

01:09:14   It might have been too late, but it was not too soon.

01:09:16   And yeah, I mean, this is, if anything,

01:09:19   I think this is, I mean, first of all, yeah,

01:09:21   probably long overdue, but second of all,

01:09:24   this might help usher in the post-iTunes era,

01:09:28   because one of the biggest reasons that iTunes

01:09:31   has to keep existing is because it's the only way

01:09:33   to sync music onto iPods.

01:09:35   So maybe this'll help that, I don't know.

01:09:37   I mean, I know this is up there with like the Mac App Store

01:09:41   rewrite as incredibly unlikely predictions

01:09:44   I've made recently, but I don't know.

01:09:48   If they're going to do it, they have to lay the groundwork

01:09:50   to finally like fix/replace iTunes,

01:09:53   and one of the biggest ways to do that is,

01:09:56   first of all, get rid of the need for it

01:09:57   to ever run on Windows, and then second of all,

01:09:59   get rid of the need for it to sync iPods,

01:10:01   and like if you can do those things, which are related,

01:10:04   you can clear out a lot of the need for it

01:10:06   to hold on to all this old cruft.

01:10:10   There was a leak related to that actually.

01:10:11   I think it was actually a Mac OS leak.

01:10:13   Some sort of thing in Mac OS that was like, oh, you know, like quick looking on a video

01:10:18   or something was like, open this in movies or something like that instead of open in

01:10:23   iTunes, right?

01:10:24   It was like a string for a dialog box thing that opened it in one of Apple's incredibly

01:10:28   boringly named applications.

01:10:30   Like there's no more iTunes, now we have an application called movies and an application

01:10:34   called podcasts and an application called music.

01:10:36   And that is totally what Apple would do

01:10:37   because they're super boring names.

01:10:39   Anyway, that's coming.

01:10:41   We all know something like that is coming

01:10:43   and you're right, getting rid of the iPods does help it.

01:10:45   - What if they don't use those boring names?

01:10:47   What if they pull a planet of the apps

01:10:50   and they call every single one of the new apps Apple Music?

01:10:54   - Yeah, that would make just as much sense

01:10:56   as TV shows on Apple Music.

01:10:58   Well, they did call it Audio OS too.

01:11:00   They always have to have, every time they solve,

01:11:02   quote unquote, solve a naming problem

01:11:03   by aligning the stupid capitalization of all their OSs

01:11:06   to be worse, uniformly worse,

01:11:08   then they make a new crisis of naming,

01:11:10   which is like, you know, audio OS

01:11:11   and Apple music with TV shows on it,

01:11:13   but they'll sort it out, yeah.

01:11:15   So I don't know what the timeline is on those things.

01:11:17   Seems like a lot to bite off, but I'm, you know,

01:11:21   even though it is totally fine to get rid of the iPods

01:11:24   like their time has come,

01:11:25   there are still people who miss things about them.

01:11:27   And I, you know, not that I miss the products specifically,

01:11:31   But I miss Apple being in that market.

01:11:34   So what kind of market are we talking about?

01:11:36   Well, a lot of people have been writing

01:11:37   about missing the Shuffle

01:11:38   because it's just so darn small

01:11:39   and some people don't want to strap a phone to them

01:11:41   and they're like, "Oh, I just got an Apple Watch."

01:11:43   The Watch is the new Shuffle, right?

01:11:45   You don't, you know, you just wear your watch

01:11:46   and it does so much more than the Shuffle does.

01:11:49   The Shuffle is kind of like

01:11:50   being in some of the same markets as Fitbit

01:11:54   and make an incredibly cheap thing

01:11:56   that you don't mind too much

01:11:57   when you put it through the washing machine.

01:11:58   It does one simple thing well.

01:12:00   Now that hasn't been the shuffle a long time.

01:12:02   It's done one simple thing, not really well,

01:12:04   because getting music on it was super pain,

01:12:06   but imagine something that was similar form factor

01:12:09   and price to the iPod shuffle,

01:12:12   but that you never needed to connect to iTunes.

01:12:14   Like they did everything wirelessly,

01:12:16   and it synced with all your music,

01:12:17   and you know, like people would buy that for 50 bucks.

01:12:20   Apple doesn't wanna be in the market

01:12:22   to sell you that little turd for 50 bucks.

01:12:23   Like they stayed in it a much longer

01:12:25   than anyone thought they would.

01:12:27   Who knows how cheaply they can manufacture those things now,

01:12:30   But it's kind of a shame that Apple doesn't want to go that far down.

01:12:33   They just want to sell you glass rectangles of varying sizes.

01:12:36   The smallest one they're going to make so far is going to be on your watch and it's

01:12:39   probably great for everybody.

01:12:41   But the Apple Watch is not the same market as a $50 piece of crap electronic thing that

01:12:45   you just clip onto your clothes that is incredibly lightweight and that has access to all of

01:12:49   your music effortlessly.

01:12:52   So I hope to see the return of the shuffle.

01:12:56   If the Apple Watch continues to be successful five years from now or whatever, either the

01:13:00   watch gets super cheap and travels down to that segment or some other thing, some other

01:13:07   sort of you can find it in a box of cereal, incredibly cheap, don't really worry about

01:13:12   it too much, but also incredibly light and also empowered by Apple's sort of ecosystem,

01:13:17   like all the stuff they have, all your podcasts or music and all the cloud stuff.

01:13:22   I mean, they're talking about adding cellular to the Apple Watch, which we talked about

01:13:26   many years ago as an inevitability.

01:13:29   A tiny iPod shuffle that has access to your entire library of music and podcasts, it also

01:13:34   has cell access that costs $50.

01:13:37   I would love that product in 10, 15 years.

01:13:39   So I hope not that the iPod comes back, but that that form factor comes back and that

01:13:44   Apple doesn't continue to travel upmarket without remembering it can also extend downmarket

01:13:50   as well.

01:13:51   I think ultimately the biggest problem and probably the reason why this was killed and why this doesn't exist

01:13:58   You know Hopps is crying outside my door. Let me let him in. So I had a tough love. I fibrarized my dog

01:14:03   He's whining out there. She's whining out there and you know, just just wait it out eventually. She'll

01:14:07   All right, we put him in airplane mode, what does that even mean?

01:14:19   I want to make fun of you so badly for that, but that is genius.

01:14:23   Alright, so I think one of the reasons why they killed the iPods now, and why I think,

01:14:30   Jon, your hope for a Shuffle is totally futile, is that I think-

01:14:34   It's been like 15 years, come on, cut me a break here, I feel like I'm having to come

01:14:37   back tomorrow.

01:14:38   First of all, I have owned Shuffles, my first, I think my first two iPods were Shuffles,

01:14:44   And I was not as big of a fan as you are of them.

01:14:50   But I think the big problem now and one of the reasons why they could probably do this

01:14:55   now and kill all the iPhones now is I think it's easy for people like us, basically old

01:15:01   computer nerds, to overestimate how many people actually still maintain their own music collections.

01:15:08   days streaming is so popular, it is the default of what everyone does. So many people either

01:15:15   never built up a music collection or have abandoned it years ago for streaming services.

01:15:22   I think the whole idea of a music player that you sync a collection of DRM free, locally

01:15:29   stored files that you sync those onto this music player and bring it with you somewhere,

01:15:35   I think that whole idea has had its day and it's done.

01:15:39   And I don't think it's coming back.

01:15:41   That's not related to the form factor.

01:15:42   I said it would have to have cell access and have access to the cloud stuff.

01:15:45   That includes Apple Music.

01:15:46   That includes Spotify.

01:15:47   Right?

01:15:48   Well, then that's a cellular Apple Watch, basically.

01:15:51   And they might be allegedly making that.

01:15:52   Right, but it's not a watch.

01:15:53   It's not a watch and it's not going to be $300, like a $50 thing.

01:15:57   Then it's a phone.

01:15:58   That you can connect to all your cloud stuff too, and your podcasts, which aren't the same

01:16:01   as, you know, you could stream your podcast.

01:16:03   That's fine, but you still have to know what podcast you subscribe to anyway all the existing cloud stuff the existing cloud stuff is

01:16:08   Apple music

01:16:10   You know iTunes match your iCloud music library your podcast Spotify everything like that all those ecosystems

01:16:17   Even if it just did like okay like the watch does now like well the watch can't get there by itself

01:16:23   But it can go on Wi-Fi and it can talk to your phone or whatever

01:16:26   They the whole point is they don't want to sell something

01:16:30   think it's 50 bucks that you can listen to music and podcasts on regardless of how you

01:16:34   do it because they just, you know, you can't technologically do what I'm describing right

01:16:37   now because it would cost more than 50 bucks and the $50 thing they have now sucks because

01:16:41   it's so hard to get the music onto it and it's so hard to use, right?

01:16:45   So I'm just hoping they come back to that.

01:16:46   When technology catches up, I hope they don't say, "Well, you got to buy a watch," and the

01:16:50   watch always starts at $199.

01:16:51   Like it never goes below that because you know Apple and prices that just keep going

01:16:54   up market.

01:16:55   I hope they extend back down because it's kind of like the iPod accidentally ended up

01:16:59   50 bucks or whatever the shuffles were, because the first shuffle was what, 99 or something

01:17:04   like that?

01:17:05   And it's just 120 if you want to do more capacity, I think.

01:17:08   Yeah, like in a rare case of it becoming cheaper to make this type of thing, it just so happened

01:17:13   that the price dropped down and people didn't care about it.

01:17:15   You know, it's one of those cases where even Apple couldn't fight against the fact that

01:17:21   this thing was incredibly cheap to make.

01:17:22   I wonder how much the shuffle that they were selling for, whatever they were selling for,

01:17:25   actually cost them to manufacture.

01:17:26   The margins were probably big, but they probably sold none of them, so who cares?

01:17:30   But that's what's happening with all electronics.

01:17:32   That's why the watch is going to get cellular, because eventually you can do that that fits

01:17:36   in that form factor and in that price.

01:17:39   That will eventually happen for something like a shuffle.

01:17:43   And so I hope when that does happen that Apple revisits that, especially as they expand out

01:17:49   their ecosystem.

01:17:50   Like they're doing it with the phone, diversifying the phone, they make a big one with a small

01:17:52   one, now they're going to make a big one with a small one and a medium expensive one.

01:17:55   There's always room, like they always said they're not going to leave a price umbrella.

01:17:59   It's just that Apple loves to go upwards, like, "Oh, we can make it even more expensive

01:18:03   phone.

01:18:04   Let's make it bigger and add 100 bucks.

01:18:05   Let's make it all glass and add another 100 bucks."

01:18:06   Like that's the total of the Apple way to do it and that's great and they should do

01:18:09   that.

01:18:10   They should also make a really expensive Mac Pro that we'll all potentially buy.

01:18:13   But the other direction, like don't just accidentally land there.

01:18:16   Revisit it in many years when you can make the shuffle that I was describing because

01:18:22   I think they can sell a lot of those things enough to make it worth their while and people

01:18:30   do like them.

01:18:31   They don't like the old shuffle because now it's outdated but if they made a new one that

01:18:34   did all that stuff, a lot of people would buy them.

01:18:36   And I say this mostly because I see people with Fitbits which Fitbits would do almost

01:18:39   nothing and are junkie and people put through the wash all the time but I see a ton of them.

01:18:44   So I think there is a market for so cheap you don't worry about it too much wearables

01:18:50   that do something useful.

01:18:52   - Yeah, there is in general, but I think there's a lot more

01:18:55   of that in the fitness community than there is

01:18:57   in the audio playback market.

01:18:59   Like, you know, I think when you're looking at

01:19:02   just having a small audio player,

01:19:04   the shuffle did make sense for a while

01:19:08   as a thing that exists in the lineup.

01:19:09   Again, I will stand by the fact that it was never good,

01:19:11   but it made sense to exist and sell,

01:19:15   and it was fine for certain uses.

01:19:17   But now, you're starting from a place

01:19:21   where by default you assume everyone has a phone.

01:19:25   And then, so what you're saying is basically,

01:19:28   or like the case that a shuffle would have to make

01:19:31   is not I need something that can play music on the go,

01:19:35   'cause your phone is that thing and you already have that.

01:19:37   So that's effectively free for you.

01:19:38   Like there's no additional cost for you

01:19:40   to have music on the go,

01:19:40   you already have that with your phone.

01:19:42   And so now it's, well, if you want to buy something else,

01:19:47   something smaller that you can clip onto your body,

01:19:50   maybe because of certain types of workouts that you do,

01:19:53   like running where you don't want to strap a phone to you,

01:19:56   or something like that.

01:19:58   Well then their answer is the watch.

01:20:00   Then their answer is, well, if you're doing these things,

01:20:02   we already have something small

01:20:04   that completely you can clip to your body.

01:20:06   It's better than anything,

01:20:07   it's better than any shuffle ever made,

01:20:09   because you don't have to clip it

01:20:12   to some part of your clothing,

01:20:13   you just strap it on your wrist

01:20:15   in a location that people are totally fine

01:20:17   wearing things most of the time,

01:20:18   and there's no wires, you can't plug a wire into it

01:20:21   even if you wanted to, so you don't have a headphone wire

01:20:23   that you have to route somewhere along your arm

01:20:25   or strap it down or through your shirt or anything like that

01:20:27   you could just use Bluetooth.

01:20:29   - Oh, you would have to work with the AirPods.

01:20:31   - Right, exactly, and so--

01:20:32   - But the Shuffle would do that too.

01:20:34   - Yes, but if you're saying like Apple should sell

01:20:36   a small, inexpensive, wearable device

01:20:38   that you can sync music to in a modern way

01:20:40   that can run modern apps and modern streaming services

01:20:43   and can stream things to Bluetooth

01:20:44   that's smaller than a phone, they do,

01:20:46   it's called the Apple Watch,

01:20:47   and I don't think it's ever going to get down to 50 bucks.

01:20:50   - I already said that.

01:20:50   I said like they could,

01:20:52   if the way they can get to that market

01:20:53   is by making a $50 Apple watch, that's fine.

01:20:55   But if they never want the Apple watch

01:20:57   to go down to 50 bucks,

01:20:58   what I'm saying is there's still a place

01:20:59   for them to put something like that.

01:21:00   If they don't, they'll put it this way,

01:21:01   if they don't do it and a Fitbit is still in business,

01:21:03   Fitbit will make this.

01:21:04   Because Fitbit already sells you something

01:21:06   that is small, lightweight, cheap,

01:21:08   that does less than an Apple watch.

01:21:10   And eventually if they can sell something at that price

01:21:13   and Apple doesn't, then Fitbit will.

01:21:16   In the same way that Fitbit will sell a thing that counts your steps, that's much cheaper

01:21:19   than an Apple Watch.

01:21:20   And Apple thus far can't make an Apple Watch that's cheap because it's too complicated,

01:21:24   right?

01:21:25   So they could, you know, I'm just saying like don't leave this market out.

01:21:27   And I'm saying not to do it with the watch because thus far Apple has made the watch

01:21:31   to be not upscale like the edition days are behind us, but they're still making the ceramic

01:21:37   ones and they're all about fashion and fanciness.

01:21:41   It seems to me that there is less of an appetite to bring the Apple Watch down to 50 bucks

01:21:45   even if they can technically.

01:21:46   So that leaves room for, if they don't wanna do that,

01:21:49   and if they don't want Fitbit to sell that thing,

01:21:51   leaves room to bring back something like the Shuffle

01:21:54   in the future that is essentially an Apple watch

01:21:57   without a strap and maybe without a screen on it

01:21:59   even if you wanna make it super cheap.

01:22:01   I think we can all agree though that no one is crying

01:22:05   for the iPod Nano because that is a product without a home.

01:22:09   - Yeah, and that was so good for so long,

01:22:12   but that time has long passed.

01:22:16   - Yeah, my first Apple products, if memory serves,

01:22:19   were the original iPod Shuffle that looked like

01:22:21   a stick of gum, or a pack of gum, I guess I should say,

01:22:24   and then following that, an iPod Nano,

01:22:27   the one that was really easy to scratch the back of,

01:22:29   and I think there was like a class action lawsuit

01:22:30   or something like that. - Scratch the front,

01:22:31   not the back, the front.

01:22:33   - What's the front?

01:22:33   Okay, right. - Yeah.

01:22:34   - But either way, those were my first two Apple products.

01:22:37   So I think I have a similar reaction to everyone,

01:22:40   or a lot of people, which is, well, that kind of sucks,

01:22:44   but no, actually it doesn't,

01:22:46   because who's really buying these anymore anyway?

01:22:49   So yeah.

01:22:50   And they also, did we already mention

01:22:52   that they capacity bumped the iPod touch as well,

01:22:54   which is nice? - Yeah, but nobody cares.

01:22:56   - Not fair.

01:22:57   - John, you would have cared. - The iPod touch seems--

01:22:58   - I know. - Yeah, well, no.

01:23:00   They, you know, it is even worse than iPhone SE users now.

01:23:03   The iPod touch has been so left behind.

01:23:05   That's why I had to leave it.

01:23:06   Like, it was just, well, you know,

01:23:07   getting a phone 'cause I was gonna get a phone,

01:23:09   but like, they, you know, updated it forever.

01:23:10   And yeah, they bumped the capacities

01:23:12   but left the prices the same, but it's still overpriced.

01:23:15   Like the problem, like it's not super expensive,

01:23:19   but for what's in it,

01:23:20   like I find it hard to recommend that product.

01:23:23   I suppose if you wanna get something for your kid

01:23:25   and it's still cheaper than an iPad, right?

01:23:28   But I find it really hard to recommend that product

01:23:31   at the current price and capabilities.

01:23:34   If they want, if they don't wanna can the iPod touch,

01:23:38   which apparently they don't wanna do

01:23:38   'cause they could have just canned it now,

01:23:40   they need to get it on a slightly better upgrade cycle.

01:23:45   I mean, I guess they're not motivated to do that

01:23:48   because it's like the Mac mini of the iOS line.

01:23:52   It's like, well, it's a product that exists in our lineup

01:23:54   and people do buy it and it fills a role,

01:23:57   but we're not killing ourselves to make a new one.

01:23:59   So it's got what, it's got the A8 in it now?

01:24:01   Like when the A12 is out, can we update the iPod Touch again?

01:24:04   Oh, we'll give you another capacity bump.

01:24:06   Like, come on, if you're gonna have it

01:24:08   maybe update it every once in a while, that's all I'm saying.

01:24:11   - It's also interesting how it fits now in the lineup.

01:24:13   So you have the iPod Touch at what, 200 bucks even?

01:24:17   Is that the base?

01:24:18   - Yeah, I think so.

01:24:18   - Then you have at 329, the new cheap iPad.

01:24:22   - Seems like you're getting way more.

01:24:23   - Exactly, you get way more with the iPad.

01:24:26   And then at 400, you have the iPhone SE.

01:24:29   Which if you still want a small device,

01:24:31   that is, you're getting way more for the iPhone SE

01:24:34   than you are with an iPod Touch at 200.

01:24:36   Now granted, I've now doubled the price,

01:24:39   but I feel like any discussion of what the iPod touch

01:24:42   should or shouldn't have or shouldn't be updated

01:24:45   or how it should be priced has to also then consider

01:24:48   how it fits in with these other low-end,

01:24:50   inexpensive iOS devices.

01:24:52   - Yeah, I mean, it is kind of,

01:24:54   people say like, "Oh, all the real iPods you're on,

01:24:55   "the iPod touch was never really an iPod.

01:24:57   "It was an iPod in name only."

01:24:58   But now it's actually filling the role of the iPod,

01:25:02   because why in the world would,

01:25:04   like say you're gonna get a kid,

01:25:05   It's gonna kid so they're not gonna have a phone.

01:25:07   You don't wanna, this kid doesn't have a cell number.

01:25:08   This kid is six years old, right?

01:25:10   You want to get them an iOS device.

01:25:12   You're gonna get that kid the iPad, right?

01:25:14   Unless what the kid actually wants is a music player

01:25:18   because the iPad is not a great music player

01:25:20   to carry around with you at school or whatever.

01:25:22   Like say the kid is 11 or 12

01:25:23   and maybe doesn't wanna have a phone yet, right?

01:25:25   Or the parents don't wanna pay for a cell data plan.

01:25:27   So iPhone, any kind of iPhone is out

01:25:29   because they're not paying for a cell data plan.

01:25:31   It's a waste to buy an iPhone

01:25:32   and pay that extra expense for something

01:25:33   that's not gonna be a phone.

01:25:35   But a kid would still rather have an iPad to watch YouTube on and stuff too, unless

01:25:39   they want to carry it around at school and listen to music or whatever.

01:25:42   They want to run with it or take it with them to camp or whatever.

01:25:46   It's a music player.

01:25:47   The only advantage it has is its small size.

01:25:50   Everything else about it is a disadvantage.

01:25:51   Like because the price is too close to the cheap iPad, it's really slow, the storage

01:25:56   capacity.

01:25:57   So it's kind of weird that the iPod touch is now actually living up to its iPod name

01:26:02   because literal only reason for existence in any sensible thing is to fill the role

01:26:06   of a non-phone thing that you can also get access to all of your, you know, and I suppose

01:26:13   text messages if you have Wi-Fi, but it is more iPod-like than it has ever been before,

01:26:18   which is kind of depressing because it, you know, as I pointed out many times, was once

01:26:21   the fastest iPhone OS device you could buy for a brief moment in time. Those days are

01:26:26   long gone.

01:26:27   That was Jon's favorite brief moment in time.

01:26:29   (laughs)

01:26:30   - That's what I feel like part of the,

01:26:33   probably a big part of the market for the iPod Touch,

01:26:35   in addition to being eaten alive by the low-end iPad,

01:26:38   has probably also been eaten alive

01:26:40   by the increasing numbers of people

01:26:43   who just give old iPhones to kids.

01:26:45   - Oh, that's a good point.

01:26:46   - I now know a bunch of parents of young children

01:26:49   in that age range where they could have an iOS device,

01:26:53   but you don't wanna give them a good one.

01:26:55   And I don't know any of them that have an iPod Touch.

01:26:58   they're all using their parents' old iPhones.

01:27:00   It's like iPhone 4Ss and stuff like that,

01:27:03   of that age range, or maybe an iPhone 5.

01:27:06   They're all using those.

01:27:08   And so, granted, not everybody keeps their old devices.

01:27:11   A lot of people trade them in or sell them

01:27:13   to help fund the new ones,

01:27:14   but I bet a lot of people who have children

01:27:18   of this age range, they just give them

01:27:21   what they already have in a drawer somewhere,

01:27:23   which is a few years old iPhone.

01:27:25   - I mean, maybe it's a little bit cheaper.

01:27:27   I'm trying to think of why didn't we do that with all our kids.

01:27:29   I mean, from the beginning it was because I had my old iPhones.

01:27:32   Yeah I had the old iPod Touches in them, but we actually did buy two brand new iPod Touches.

01:27:37   We ran out of my old supply of iPod Touches, right?

01:27:40   But the kids still wanted something that was better and faster, you know, my old iPod Touches

01:27:43   were too crappy for them, which they really were at that point.

01:27:46   We had the choice.

01:27:47   We could have said, "Well, why don't we take, you know, the old iPhone 4S and give it to

01:27:51   one of the kids, or we could just buy a brand new iPod Touch."

01:27:55   We ended up buying a new iPod touch.

01:27:58   Twice we did that for a variety of reasons.

01:28:01   Because it was cheap, because it's new,

01:28:02   because the battery will be fresh,

01:28:04   all the kind of reasons that you might--

01:28:06   so for us, when we had access to both of them,

01:28:10   we could have gone either way on it.

01:28:11   So I don't think it's always a slam dunk.

01:28:13   But it depends on how often you upgrade your phones.

01:28:16   If you upgrade your phone every year,

01:28:17   you would have a much greater supply of reasonable-ish iPhones

01:28:21   to go through.

01:28:22   Also, some people might want to resell their iPhones.

01:28:24   Like if you do upgrade every year, you can get some good money for reselling your iPhone

01:28:27   and maybe that makes up the cost of the iPod Touch.

01:28:30   Anyway, I'm sure they're not selling too many of these, but they don't break that out for

01:28:33   us.

01:28:34   But they did keep it around, just like the Mac Mini, so we'll keep our eye on it.

01:28:38   iPod Touch Death Watch begins now.

01:28:40   [Laughter]

01:28:41   Oh my goodness.

01:28:43   And speaking of Death Watches, Flash is on the verge of dead.

01:28:48   Like for real for real.

01:28:49   Flash is—this is another one of those things where the correct response is they were still

01:28:53   still making Flash?

01:28:55   - Yeah, I can tell they were still making Flash

01:28:57   because I still come across websites that require Flash

01:29:01   or don't work right or complain that my version of Flash

01:29:03   is up to date.

01:29:04   I'm like, still, really?

01:29:05   What is this website?

01:29:06   Why do you want me to have Flash?

01:29:07   I just want to see some video.

01:29:09   What century are we in?

01:29:10   But the reason this is a story is because Adobe,

01:29:14   the makers of Flash, are saying,

01:29:16   we're not gonna do that anymore.

01:29:18   So finally, you have no choice,

01:29:20   people who continue to make websites with Flash.

01:29:22   Soon you will not be able to get Flash or a Flash plugin that works in modern browsers

01:29:27   because Adobe is not going to spend more time developing it and blah, blah, blah.

01:29:31   So truly only Adobe could really ever kill Flash because if they continued to make it

01:29:35   and sell it as again a product in their lineup, some people buy it and use it and force you

01:29:40   to have it for their websites and those are bad people and so I'm glad Adobe is putting

01:29:44   an end to this.

01:29:45   How do you really feel?

01:29:49   Thanks to our three sponsors this week, Casper, Squarespace, and Audible.

01:29:52   And we will see you next week.

01:29:54   Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin

01:30:01   'Cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental

01:30:06   John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

01:30:12   'Cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental

01:30:17   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

01:30:22   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

01:30:32   So that's K-C-L-I-S-M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M-N-T-M-A-R-C-O-R-M-N-T-M-A-R-C-O-R-M-N-T-M-A-R-C-O-R-M-N-T-M-A-R-M-N-T-M-A-R-M-N-T-M-A-R-M-N-T-M-A-R-M-N-T-M-A-R-M-N-T-M-A-R-M-N-T-M-A-R-M-N-T-M-A-R-M-N-T-M-A-R

01:30:32   ♪ And that's Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O ♪

01:30:35   ♪ A-R-M ♪

01:30:37   ♪ Auntie Marco Arment ♪

01:30:39   ♪ S-I-R-A-C ♪

01:30:42   ♪ U-S-A-C-R-A-Q-S-A ♪

01:30:44   ♪ It's accidental ♪

01:30:46   ♪ It's accidental ♪

01:30:48   ♪ They didn't mean to ♪

01:30:50   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:30:51   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:30:52   ♪ Tech podcast ♪

01:30:54   ♪ So long ♪

01:30:56   - So John, how was your beach vacation?

01:30:59   I really wanna hear more about this.

01:31:01   same as it always is. I always go down to Long Island for, it's usually just a week.

01:31:05   This time it was almost two weeks because reasons. And we took the dog with us this

01:31:12   time. We've gone down there with the dog before, but that was our other dog. And he was much

01:31:17   better behaved than this little monster.

01:31:19   Well, she's still a puppy though.

01:31:21   Yeah, yeah, no. He was a much older dog. But we survived. We had pretty okay weather. Took

01:31:29   a lot of pictures, filled up a lot of memory cards, filled up my wife's iMac.

01:31:37   We came back home, she got that warning that Mac OS will give you that says your disk is

01:31:42   running low on space, which is never a good warning to get, because Mac OS, like so many

01:31:46   Unixes before it, does not behave well when it runs out of disk space.

01:31:50   Things get very bad very quickly.

01:31:52   So I had to come home and, well I tried to delete a bunch of pictures, but then you got

01:31:56   to go into recently deleted and delete them and you know I did as much picture deleting

01:32:00   as I could but the bottom line is pictures don't, pictures only accumulate essentially

01:32:03   you know you just keep taking more of them and you don't delete the old ones and I have

01:32:09   been more worthless in deleting them than I have in the past not just out of focus or

01:32:13   bad ones but just like you know just deleting everything except for the ones I think are

01:32:16   decent.

01:32:17   But then I had to go through her computer and delete a bunch of other stuff too so pull

01:32:22   out just inventory X. I looked for alternatives I know there's a bunch of alternatives that

01:32:26   people like Daisy Disc, Grand Perspective is a Disc inventory X look-alike type program.

01:32:31   Space Gremlin is my favorite. Oh, I didn't know about that one. I gotta check that one

01:32:34   out. It's fairly hideous, but it's pretty functional. I like the tree map view, the

01:32:39   big rectangle. I like Disc inventory X. I'm concerned that it's not being maintained and

01:32:45   it sometimes does some weird stuff that bothers me a little bit, so that's why I just downloaded

01:32:49   Grand Perspective. But anyway, if you've never used one of these programs or Omnidisc Sweeper

01:32:53   or Daisy disk, whichever one you want.

01:32:56   When you're trying to free up disk space,

01:32:57   this is the way to do it.

01:32:58   Get a program that will show you somehow

01:33:00   all the stuff that's on your disk,

01:33:02   and find the big things,

01:33:03   and don't spend a year going through a million tiny files

01:33:05   to figure out what to delete.

01:33:06   Delete like three big ones, right?

01:33:08   And that'll do it.

01:33:09   So deleted a bunch of games from Steam.

01:33:12   I moved my iTunes backups to a different volume.

01:33:16   - Yes, speaking of things you can safely delete

01:33:19   with this new modern age,

01:33:22   iTunes device backups are huge.

01:33:25   Most people have no idea that they're even still

01:33:27   keeping those if they don't use them anymore,

01:33:28   and they take up tons of disk space.

01:33:31   So that's a number one hit is like,

01:33:33   you gotta get rid of those iTunes backups.

01:33:35   Also, if you're a developer, Xcode keeps around

01:33:37   all sorts of support files for old simulators

01:33:40   and old devices that you probably don't use anymore.

01:33:42   The Xcode developer directory is always a great source

01:33:45   of clearing out stuff.

01:33:47   - Yeah, I still keep the iTunes device backups

01:33:49   just because it's still, even with the crappiness of iTunes,

01:33:53   slightly the fastest and most convenient way

01:33:56   to restore a kid's device that got totally hosed.

01:33:58   So I keep them around, I didn't want to delete them all.

01:34:02   I deleted obviously all the old ones

01:34:03   for devices that I don't use anymore,

01:34:04   but I just moved them to a different volume

01:34:06   that isn't backed up, that I don't like.

01:34:08   If I lose them, oh well.

01:34:09   These are all, these devices are all backed up to iCloud.

01:34:11   So I just have local iTunes backups.

01:34:13   It's just convenient because they're encrypted backups,

01:34:16   I have all the passwords,

01:34:16   although I think they added that

01:34:17   the iCloud backups tune out, didn't they?

01:34:20   Anyway, more backups is good,

01:34:21   so I didn't wanna delete them, I just moved them.

01:34:23   What else did I delete?

01:34:25   - Well, the trick now is,

01:34:26   so if you want the passwords and stuff to be saved,

01:34:28   they're still excluded from iCloud backups,

01:34:31   but iCloud Keychain now exists.

01:34:34   So the official-- - Ah, there you go.

01:34:35   - The official word of like how you're supposed to do this

01:34:37   is to use iCloud Keychain also

01:34:40   in addition to iCloud backups,

01:34:41   and then you will have those things work.

01:34:43   - So that saved a lot of space.

01:34:44   I ended up freeing up like 130 gigs or something,

01:34:48   which gave me a little bit more breathing room,

01:34:49   but you look at the Disk Inventory X,

01:34:52   like giant rectangle picture,

01:34:53   and it's just a huge rectangle that is my photo library.

01:34:57   And it was a little skinny row

01:34:58   with a bunch of tiny little things

01:34:59   that is everything else on the system.

01:35:02   And what can you do?

01:35:02   Like I got the biggest, you know,

01:35:04   it's a one terabyte drive in her iMac,

01:35:06   and that's the time we moved, you know,

01:35:08   we moved the photos from an external drive

01:35:09   to an internal one.

01:35:11   It's so much more convenient and fast, obviously,

01:35:13   have everything in one volume. Before I had this even more complicated backup scheme where I had,

01:35:17   you know, her internal drive on her old computer, but then also my external photos drive, and then

01:35:23   you have to do like, it just doubles the amount of backup headaches that you have to do, and

01:35:26   I like having it all at one, but at this point, you know, when we replace this iMac, I'm going to

01:35:32   get her one with a two terabyte disk, or I'm going to move the iPhoto library to my Mac Pro with a

01:35:38   four terabyte internal SSD, whatever the hell I'm going to get in my fantasy world.

01:35:42   - That's actually, that's a not crazy way to do it.

01:35:46   Like one of the little hacks I recently decided to try

01:35:49   was I have my iMac and then a laptop

01:35:52   and they have one terabyte each

01:35:54   'cause that was like the most you could get

01:35:55   on the iMac at the time and so I got that.

01:35:57   But I'm pushing that.

01:35:58   So like on the iMac, a couple years ago now,

01:36:01   I bought a little external Samsung SSD

01:36:04   and I moved over, it's very, very easy to have iTunes

01:36:09   and Apple Photos store their giant libraries anywhere else,

01:36:14   like on an external drive or anything,

01:36:15   it's very easy to do that.

01:36:16   Like you don't have to do any kind of weird

01:36:17   Sim Link trick or anything.

01:36:19   You can just tell it, I'm now moving this here,

01:36:22   and it just works for both Photos and iTunes.

01:36:24   And because it's such big things for most people,

01:36:27   that's like number one hit rate to move.

01:36:31   But one thing I started doing now with Photos is,

01:36:35   I signed it, so I have this Mac mini server at home.

01:36:38   It's like a little home utility server.

01:36:39   Among other things, it usually runs

01:36:41   in the livestream for the show.

01:36:42   It also hosts a giant iSCSI volume on my NAS.

01:36:47   And this is, I would not honestly recommend doing iSCSI.

01:36:50   It's too much of a pain.

01:36:51   If I were starting fresh today, I wouldn't do it.

01:36:54   But what I would do is just plug in a couple

01:36:56   of giant external hard drives to that Mac Mini,

01:36:59   which would serve the same function.

01:37:01   So anyway, so I have this Mac Mini that thinks

01:37:03   it has a whole bunch of locally attached storage.

01:37:06   So one thing I've started doing now is

01:37:08   I signed in to Photos app on that Mac Mini

01:37:13   and I'm having it keep a local copy

01:37:16   of 100% quality of everything.

01:37:18   So now I can safely, if I want to,

01:37:21   I'm not sure if I will, but if I want to now,

01:37:24   I can have future computers

01:37:27   not keep my entire photo library on them

01:37:30   and therefore maybe I don't need to buy

01:37:31   the giant expensive two terabyte

01:37:33   or future four terabyte options.

01:37:35   you know, now maybe I could get, quote,

01:37:38   only the one or two terabyte SSDs built in,

01:37:43   so that now, because I have this other Mac Mini in my house,

01:37:47   that is keeping a full resolution copy

01:37:48   of everything locally.

01:37:50   And you know, the third option is you could just trust

01:37:51   cloud backup, I don't like that option.

01:37:53   So I still have this thing locally,

01:37:56   I still have everything locally in my house,

01:37:58   but it's hard to, you know, 'cause once,

01:38:00   as you said, Jon, like once you add photos to your life,

01:38:03   you're basically gonna keep paying for that storage forever.

01:38:06   Like, you know, every computer you buy,

01:38:09   you're gonna have to get the bigger and bigger disk

01:38:11   each time, and you're gonna have to keep paying

01:38:12   that giant SSD tax over and over and over again

01:38:15   every time you buy a computer.

01:38:17   So one way to solve it is see if there's some kind

01:38:20   of clever way you can use other or different

01:38:23   or cheaper hard drive space in your house.

01:38:26   And so for me, having the Mac Mini signed into Photos app

01:38:28   and having that download the originals,

01:38:30   then frees up the other computers

01:38:32   to have it do the optimized storage thing.

01:38:34   And so yeah, that's one option.

01:38:37   This could be crazy, I don't know,

01:38:38   but it seemed reasonable when I set it up.

01:38:40   - No, I mean, I did the same thing.

01:38:41   I have another Mac that's signed in with a one terabyte disk

01:38:44   that does the thing, but the thing is, I just don't,

01:38:46   like in the same way that RAID is not a backup solution,

01:38:48   I don't consider that a backup.

01:38:49   Like it's good to have it,

01:38:51   but I would never turn on optimized storage on my Mac,

01:38:54   'cause I need one canonical location

01:38:55   and I don't want that backed up the old fashioned way,

01:38:58   you know, three times.

01:38:59   The time machine to two separate disks, cloud backup,

01:39:02   and also super duper clone, like the photos are the most important thing that I back up.

01:39:06   So I want them in more places, not fewer.

01:39:09   So I never, I'm never going to uncheck, I'm never going to check that optimize storage

01:39:12   box.

01:39:13   Even though, like, and I did this, that's what I did on vacation.

01:39:15   I took a laptop with me on vacation with a one terabyte drive, right?

01:39:18   And so I'm taking the pictures, signed into the same account, my wife's account, like

01:39:21   I made on this, on this laptop, and I'm doing all the pictures there and doing all the edits

01:39:26   and everything and deleting and favoriting and doing all the stuff.

01:39:29   And then I come back home and the whole time I'm leaving my laptop open all night long

01:39:33   like to upload, you know, the iCloud photo stuff, right?

01:39:35   And then I come home and look at her iMac and all the pictures and all the edits that

01:39:38   I did on vacation are basically there except for a few stragglers.

01:39:42   And then I leave both computers like on and connected to Wi-Fi for a couple, you know,

01:39:46   for like eight hours to make sure, "Okay, guys, we're all in sync now."

01:39:49   Because at this point, my photos are only on the laptop.

01:39:54   Like I've had to overwrite, I brought two SD cards with me, but I had to overwrite one

01:39:57   of them, right?

01:39:59   So I don't even have the SD cards as the backup.

01:40:01   Photos are only on the laptop, and the laptop

01:40:03   is pushing up to the cloud.

01:40:05   And then I want them to be pulled down from the cloud

01:40:07   onto what's supposed to be my canonical computer, which

01:40:09   is the iMac.

01:40:10   And only after I'm 100% sure that no one is doing any syncing,

01:40:13   and everyone is all on the same page,

01:40:14   and everyone's got all the original quality

01:40:16   images on two computers, and they're

01:40:17   backed up 100 times, only then can I turn on optimize storage

01:40:21   on the laptop, or more likely I'm just

01:40:24   going to delete that account on the laptop

01:40:25   or whatever, because it's just a temporary thing.

01:40:27   The thing with the Mac Mini, I would love to have a solution like that if I had the

01:40:32   disk space on another Mac to throw at it, but in general I want my backups to use different

01:40:38   software than the regular functioning of stuff.

01:40:41   I think for a while I also had it on my Mac, on my Mac Pro, the same thing with optimized

01:40:45   storage on, but optimized storage is too blunt of an instrument.

01:40:50   I want some control over the optimized storage.

01:40:52   I don't want it to be like, "Well, almost fill your desk and then back off."

01:40:55   I would love to say, optimize storage

01:40:58   and never get bigger than X size, right?

01:41:01   Or, I don't know, something to let me have more control.

01:41:03   - Or like, keep the originals

01:41:05   for the last X months or years.

01:41:07   - Yeah, exactly.

01:41:08   - Before that, you can start archiving,

01:41:09   you know, stuff like that.

01:41:10   But also, to clarify, by the way,

01:41:12   that Mac mini that hosts this full-size library,

01:41:15   everything it has is also backed up to backblaze.

01:41:18   - Yeah.

01:41:19   - There were always people in the chat asking,

01:41:22   so I figured, let me save myself a week of email

01:41:24   - I would just say that's also backed up.

01:41:26   - Too late.

01:41:27   - Yeah.

01:41:27   - That's why it's iSCSI,

01:41:28   because the back place doesn't do network disks,

01:41:30   so you need to direct attach storage.

01:41:32   - That's exactly it, yeah.

01:41:34   And I have a feeling, I don't think photos.app

01:41:37   would appreciate being on a network disk either.

01:41:39   Anyway, yeah, if I were starting over,

01:41:41   honestly, if I were starting over today

01:41:42   with large storage like this, I would not get a NAS.

01:41:46   I would just get, I would just have another Mac somewhere

01:41:49   or another computer somewhere in your house

01:41:51   that's small spec, inexpensive,

01:41:54   and just plug in a few large external hard drives

01:41:57   and call it a day.

01:41:58   Because then you can have things like backblaze

01:42:00   backing it up.

01:42:01   And I have found that I don't,

01:42:03   you know, unlike Casey,

01:42:04   like Casey, you use crazy cool features of the NAS,

01:42:07   like with it's built in apps.

01:42:09   I use none of them in practice.

01:42:10   Like, the NAS to me is just a giant external hard drive box.

01:42:14   - You don't even use Plex on it?

01:42:15   - No, I use Plex on that Mac Mini actually.

01:42:18   - Yeah, that's the same setup I have on my iMac.

01:42:21   So I don't use Plex on the device.

01:42:22   I mean, I don't really do that much with the Synology, although I didn't want to interrupt

01:42:27   Jon earlier, but I was surprised that you don't have the Synology hosting a VPN for

01:42:31   you, so you can, like, easily get to any device on your network and force all of those things

01:42:37   to be uploaded.

01:42:38   You know, you can—

01:42:39   My Synology is not accessible to the internet.

01:42:40   Because it's a peace of mind thing.

01:42:42   Like Synology and other network attached to it, like, you can't reach it—I can't

01:42:46   reach it—no one can reach it from the internet.

01:42:48   I feel better that way.

01:42:49   I don't have any access to my home network from outside.

01:42:51   I have anything like, you know, any kind of like

01:42:55   dynamic DNS thing or any kind of like

01:42:57   forwarded screen sharing or VNC,

01:42:59   I have no access to my home network.

01:43:01   Anything I wanna do that I wanna access

01:43:04   when I'm out on the go, I have to either access it through

01:43:07   sync services like Dropbox or if I really need something,

01:43:09   I can pull a file off of Backblaze, but that's it.

01:43:12   - All right, is that a good enough after show?

01:43:14   - What was I gonna say?

01:43:15   There was one more thing about my setup

01:43:16   that I was gonna say, and now I have--

01:43:18   - So John, I guess your vacation went well.

01:43:21   I love it.

01:43:23   How did your vacation go?

01:43:24   Here's all the stories about disk space in my photos library.

01:43:27   I mean, you know, my vacation is like it's for the kids and everyone to go to the beach

01:43:32   and hang out and, you know, me taking care of the dog this time has a little bit of added

01:43:36   hassle and stress and lots of waking up early.

01:43:38   But I take a lot of pictures.

01:43:39   Like, you know, I just, well, I brought both cameras because you got to have a backup.

01:43:43   But I just used my new Sony camera.

01:43:45   Didn't even use my Super Zoom at all.

01:43:46   The Super Zoom was just there just in case I dropped the Sony in the ocean.

01:43:49   I successfully did not drop it in the ocean once again.

01:43:53   I brought a new zoom lens for it which is a longer zoom but a crappier lens but it was

01:43:58   cheap than I used last time.

01:44:00   It was alright.

01:44:02   I used most of the lenses I brought with me.

01:44:04   I took lots of pictures, got some good ones.

01:44:06   But that's a lot of my beach vacation stories.

01:44:08   I take a lot of pictures and then I edit them and mess with them and post a couple of them

01:44:14   to Instagram.

01:44:15   In general I don't post pictures of like pictures of my relatives.

01:44:17   I don't want to be featured on my Instagram.

01:44:19   And really don't post much pictures of my family, though now that my kids are older,

01:44:23   I post a few pictures of them here and there.

01:44:26   But yeah, this is my heaviest photography time of the year.

01:44:29   If you look at when are the most pictures taken, by far it's these one or two weeks

01:44:33   that I'm long at.

01:44:34   Like we'll come home from the ocean one day and I'll have 1,600 pictures.

01:44:36   Obviously I'm not keeping all of those, I'm deleting a lot of them, but that's what it

01:44:40   looks like.

01:44:41   The secret to good photography as far as I've been able to determine so far is take a huge

01:44:44   number of pictures and then delete most of them.

01:44:46   Yeah, the secret of good photography is lots of bad photography.

01:44:48   Yeah, so I'm definitely doing that.

01:44:51   What else lens wise?

01:44:53   Yeah, I still don't have a really good zoom that I like because good zooms are really

01:44:57   expensive and really heavy and it's like I'm just resigned to the fact that I will, you

01:45:01   know, the smaller, you know, my 50 millimeter prime is still my favorite lens but that's

01:45:07   not going to cut it at the ocean and so as I get more flexible the image quality goes

01:45:11   down and the size and weight go up and I've mostly accepted that.

01:45:15   but I'm still pretty happy with my camera.

01:45:17   Got a lot of good shots out of it.

01:45:18   And like I said, didn't drop it in the ocean,

01:45:20   so that's key.

01:45:21   - Yeah, I mean, they're basically,

01:45:22   there is no good zoom.

01:45:24   Like, every zoom is a giant compromise

01:45:28   and at least one factor.

01:45:30   Either you're compromising image quality severely

01:45:33   in order to get something reasonably sized

01:45:34   and reasonably inexpensive,

01:45:36   or you are having really great image quality,

01:45:40   but then the thing is massive

01:45:42   and probably a pretty small zoom range

01:45:44   and probably very expensive.

01:45:45   It's just impossible to make a great zoom lens

01:45:51   that has a large range and is reasonably priced

01:45:54   and is reasonably small.

01:45:55   You just can't do it.

01:45:57   - Oh, and one brief dog story.

01:45:58   So I've been training to come when called

01:46:02   like in adverse conditions when you really want it to happen

01:46:05   like for example, when all the other dogs in the dog park

01:46:08   run to the mud puddle and get covered head to toe

01:46:11   in muddy water, right?

01:46:14   and literally changes the color of the dog

01:46:15   and you don't want your dog to do that,

01:46:17   that's the time when you wanna,

01:46:18   and every dog wants to go to the nub puddle,

01:46:20   they all start heading there

01:46:21   and all the owners are like, "No!"

01:46:23   That's when you need the come when called thing

01:46:26   to actually work.

01:46:28   I call my, I use that, was it today?

01:46:31   Tell you yesterday.

01:46:32   Exactly that happened.

01:46:33   You know, I told her to come, she came,

01:46:36   it was exciting, right?

01:46:37   But I found limits to that on vacation

01:46:39   because she was out in the backyard

01:46:40   and we let her loose for a little bit

01:46:41   and she's wandering around.

01:46:42   Usually the worst she does is find rabbit turds and eat them because they're delicious.

01:46:47   This time she found a dead bird.

01:46:52   And I didn't know what she had found.

01:46:53   I saw her getting into something and I called her to come over and she comes running towards

01:46:57   me.

01:46:58   She gets about three inches from my hand where I'm about to grab her collar and I see the

01:47:02   wing of the dead bird sticking out of her mouth.

01:47:04   This is not a small bird.

01:47:05   This is a pretty significant bird that's in her mouth.

01:47:09   And she gets close to me and she sees that I'm going to reach for the collar and she's

01:47:11   She's like, "I'm out," turns the other direction, runs away as fast as she can.

01:47:16   I run after her.

01:47:17   She's running a yard.

01:47:18   I run after her.

01:47:19   I eventually catch up with her.

01:47:20   She, as far as I can tell, swallowed that bird whole.

01:47:23   Like just so I couldn't, you know, I was ready to dig the thing out of her mouth, like so

01:47:27   many things that I dig out of my dog's mouth that I don't want her to have.

01:47:31   She just, you know, like full, like Python lizard, just slurped down, like, "Hold that

01:47:36   bird.

01:47:37   Beak, feathers, everything.

01:47:38   That's dogs for you."

01:47:40   So she will come when called when all the other dogs are running to the mud puddle,

01:47:44   but she gets a dead bird.

01:47:45   Just like I have made the mental calculation and whatever treat you're going to give me

01:47:49   for coming when called does not match this dead bird.

01:47:52   So dead bird wins.

01:47:53   [BEEPING]