232: You've Exceeded Some Limit


00:00:00   I was going to buy a streaming box for a fleeting moment

00:00:02   when I thought--

00:00:03   - When you were becoming a vlogger, right?

00:00:04   - Well, no, I'm still becoming a vlogger

00:00:07   just exceptionally slowly, but I thought about

00:00:10   buying a streaming box when I thought I was going

00:00:11   to get into like Switch streaming with iMic

00:00:15   and then never ended up doing so.

00:00:17   - I wonder which of us makes our second YouTube video first,

00:00:21   you or me?

00:00:21   - It's a race to the bottom, I assure you.

00:00:24   (laughing)

00:00:24   (electronic music)

00:00:26   All right, let's start with some follow-up.

00:00:27   Guess what, we don't really have any.

00:00:29   I think that's because in part we just released, or Marco just released last week's episode

00:00:37   earlier today because we are recording the episode from the future in the past or something

00:00:44   because it is currently the 20th of July.

00:00:47   We are recording the episode that will be released on or around the 26th of July because

00:00:52   our vacations are in serial.

00:00:54   And so we didn't really have time to amass follow-up.

00:00:57   than to say we are going to be doing a Q&A episode, I believe—what did you say, Jon?

00:01:03   Master of Ceremonies, Syracuse? You said the fourth—

00:01:06   Jon Streeter I think it's recording on August 4th, and

00:01:08   we're doing a double recording with back-to-back episodes, which is why we're doing the Q&A,

00:01:12   because we're just going to answer questions until we all die, and then Marc will make

00:01:15   two shows out of it.

00:01:16   [Laughter]

00:01:17   Jon Streeter Sounds wonderful. So anyway, so yes, please

00:01:21   pile up questions. At this time, the only way to get a question put in to be a contender

00:01:28   for the show is to tweet with the hashtag #AskATP. Please do not email us because it

00:01:35   will get lost to the ether. And if we were cooler like Hello Internet, we would have

00:01:40   asked for postcards, but we are not that cool nor that organized. So tweet with—

00:01:44   That would be a terrible mistake if we learned nothing from Hello Internet. Who wants to

00:01:48   to go to the post office or PO box

00:01:50   and bring home a bunch of pieces of paper

00:01:52   and then transcribe the things on them, terrible mistake.

00:01:55   - Yeah, so please tweet #askATP

00:01:59   and we will hopefully select your question.

00:02:02   Anyway, that's it for follow-up, right?

00:02:05   That might be record time.

00:02:07   We should have somebody go through and chronicle

00:02:10   how long we spend on follow-up.

00:02:11   Like, what does the trend line look like?

00:02:12   - I'm sure there's like one angry fan

00:02:14   who has already done that.

00:02:15   - Is that fan you?

00:02:17   Because no one else cares.

00:02:20   Sometimes there's none at all.

00:02:22   Sometimes there's just one thing.

00:02:24   Sometimes there's a lot.

00:02:25   If we record two days before we do a second recording, usually not that much.

00:02:29   Funny how that works out.

00:02:30   We should go on Adobe schedule vacations more often.

00:02:34   Oh man, all right.

00:02:36   So let's start with the topics, and first thing is the Apple A10X is 10 nanometer.

00:02:43   That's cool.

00:02:44   So tell us about this, John.

00:02:45   Remember we were talking about Intel and their process advantage and how a Taiwan semiconductor

00:02:51   was supposedly catching up, but Intel still had a lead and all sorts of stuff.

00:02:57   And we were seeing, we were going to see Intel, it was going to be first at 10 nanometer with

00:03:02   a significant type of chip, not just memory or something like that.

00:03:06   But as people who took apart the new iPad with the Apple's A10X and it discovered the

00:03:14   the ATENX system on the chip is using Tylon Semiconductor's 10nm process.

00:03:22   And ATENX is not a tiny chip, I mean, in the grand scheme of things it's not as big as

00:03:27   a Xeon, but it's pretty complicated, right?

00:03:29   It's got multiple cores and a GPU and I/O, it's not as simple as a memory chip.

00:03:34   So I haven't been keeping up with Intel and its various woes that much.

00:03:40   But bottom line, of all the Apple devices we care about, which includes PCs and iPads

00:03:48   and watches and phones and all sorts of other things, the first one, as far as I'm aware,

00:03:53   to get a 10nm chip is this one, and the chip is not from Intel.

00:03:57   So whether or not Intel has "lost its lead in process," it continues to be embarrassing

00:04:05   that Apple's system on a chip, a XX line of chips, are so fast and so low power and now are on a

00:04:16   smaller process than the chips that are in all of Apple's Macs. So it's kind of exciting/depressing,

00:04:23   depending on how you look at it. So remind me, and I'm not being funny at all,

00:04:27   what is the 10 nanometer represent? The lines within the processor, like the quote-unquote

00:04:33   wires is that correct or is that not even close?

00:04:35   Oh I don't know they call it feature size I'm sure there's some standard for measuring

00:04:38   from you know this thing to that thing like I think it was like a dot pitch on monitors

00:04:43   I'm sure there's some standard because you say well what is a feature like it's from

00:04:46   you know from one transistor to another how closely you can pack them together or like

00:04:50   I have no idea. Maybe it's like the center of one to the center of the next one? Yeah

00:04:54   but but there's different geometries like this is their FinFET thing like they're actually

00:04:57   3D if you look at the shape of where the source and drain and gate and everything is they

00:05:02   They all have all these clever arrangements of layers of stuff.

00:05:05   Someone should look up, you can probably just go to the Wikipedia and find out, but basically

00:05:08   if you think of it like dot pitch on a monitor, it's from, you know, how, from the center

00:05:14   of, like what Mark was saying, from the center of one thing to the center of the other, the

00:05:16   question is how do they determine that because I think there are different sizes and configurations

00:05:20   of things that you can put down on a chip.

00:05:23   I'm assuming it is like the smallest distance between two features.

00:05:28   So anyway, Taiwan Semiconductor doing pretty well.

00:05:33   Apple with its A-series chips doing pretty well.

00:05:36   Intel, I don't know, doing okay.

00:05:41   Kind of stumbling, it was the recent announcement

00:05:43   they were getting out of the wearables market

00:05:45   that they were never really in.

00:05:46   - Yeah, I was gonna say,

00:05:47   what did they have in the wearables market?

00:05:49   - They had a program and an initiative

00:05:53   and an attempt, like they've done many times.

00:05:55   Like remember when they tried to get

00:05:56   into the standalone GPU market with,

00:05:57   what the hell was that called?

00:06:00   Chat room will tell me in seven seconds or so.

00:06:02   - Yeah, like about five years ago maybe?

00:06:04   - Yeah, where they were taking a bunch of little x86 cores

00:06:07   and put them on a Larabee.

00:06:09   I got it before the chat room, haha.

00:06:11   And they were gonna make a run at the GPU market

00:06:14   and they had evangelists and they had APIs

00:06:16   and they had some silicon and it just never came together

00:06:19   and they said, "Oh, okay, well we're not gonna do that."

00:06:21   And then they concentrated on their internal GPUs,

00:06:25   like the integrated ones, and they've come a long way on that,

00:06:28   partially, supposedly, rumor has it,

00:06:31   at the behest of Apple asking for more powerful

00:06:34   integrated GPU so they don't have to include a discrete GPU

00:06:37   on every single Mac just to have any graphics performance

00:06:40   worth a damn.

00:06:40   They were gonna get into wearables,

00:06:43   and they had an initiative, and they had a team,

00:06:45   and they had a blah, blah, blah,

00:06:46   and now they've just bailed out.

00:06:48   They also had a bunch of things like getting into

00:06:51   set-top boxes back in the day,

00:06:54   What it's like of all the Intel failed programs

00:06:56   where they were going to enter a new market.

00:06:57   I mean, if you want to trace it all the way backwards,

00:06:59   it's when they divested of all their ARM holdings.

00:07:01   They had both at the-- another thing-- XScale.

00:07:04   They had ARM CPU.

00:07:06   And they said, now we're going to get out of that business.

00:07:09   Probably it's going to turn out to have been a bad idea.

00:07:12   But in theory, like-- I mean, it didn't have to be.

00:07:15   It could have been they got out of that business

00:07:17   and they made a bunch of their own x86 chips

00:07:21   that were just as good as the things that Apple's making out.

00:07:24   But they didn't, they didn't make those.

00:07:26   And Apple did, and so that's how you lose.

00:07:28   So you can trace it back and say,

00:07:29   "Oh, you should've stopped."

00:07:30   There's no guarantee that if they kept Xscale

00:07:31   that they would've been able to do

00:07:33   as good a job as Apple is doing now.

00:07:34   So it's a weird world we live in

00:07:36   for someone who grew up in the Wintel era.

00:07:38   But I'm still rooting for Intel

00:07:40   because they're all the CPUs and all the Macs,

00:07:41   and I want a really good Mac, so let's get going.

00:07:45   - Yeah, that's pretty much why I care about this stuff

00:07:48   so much, like I know that it's probably,

00:07:51   for lots of reasons we've discussed before,

00:07:52   it's probably unlikely that we're ever gonna see,

00:07:55   or at least I guess never say never,

00:07:56   but that anytime soon we're gonna see Apple

00:07:59   bring the A line of ARM CPUs to the Mac and have ARM Macs.

00:08:04   And that's kind of a shame because these CPUs are awesome.

00:08:08   Like they keep making these amazing chips

00:08:12   and with their in-house designs

00:08:14   that are kicking the butts of everything else

00:08:15   in the middle market.

00:08:17   And Intel is really having a hard time

00:08:21   getting incremental performance gains every time they release something, and they were

00:08:24   even having a hard time releasing anything.

00:08:27   So I kind of wish that more of this excitement would be available on the Mac side, because

00:08:33   who knows what they could do.

00:08:35   Right now they have this amazing A10X chip, based on the amazing A10 chip, making the

00:08:41   iPad very competitive with low-end Macs in CPU performance.

00:08:46   And imagine what they could do with that

00:08:48   if they let it run in a 150 watt desktop enclosure.

00:08:52   That would be, that could be really amazing.

00:08:55   But for lots of reasons we discussed before,

00:08:57   basically making ARM Macs is neither easy nor likely.

00:09:02   But I do think that's kind of a shame

00:09:04   because there's all this exciting stuff happening

00:09:06   over in the ARM world that us Mac fans

00:09:09   are just kind of not a part of or minimally a part of.

00:09:14   I continue to think that there is nothing specifically magical about ARM that guarantees

00:09:18   that if Apple did have a team that said, "Hey, you've got 150-watt power budget.

00:09:22   Go nuts."

00:09:23   They would just have to end up doing all the same things that Intel does with its Xeon.

00:09:27   Only Intel probably has a bunch of them patented, and Apple doesn't have experience with them,

00:09:30   because you do end up making different choices when you have a ridiculously high power budget

00:09:33   like that.

00:09:34   And there's no secret sauce that only Apple knows.

00:09:37   And a lot of the tricks they know from their experience with low-power stuff are not applicable

00:09:41   to 150-watt power envelopes.

00:09:43   So I think they would make good chips, no doubt.

00:09:46   And maybe they would make ones that are actually better

00:09:48   than what Intel offers.

00:09:49   But I don't feel like they would be crushing them

00:09:51   in the same way that they're crushing on the low power side.

00:09:55   Because this is not Apple's first chip.

00:09:57   What was it, the A6 was their first sort of their own design?

00:10:02   They've had years and years to get this good at system

00:10:04   on a chips in tablets and phones.

00:10:07   They have no experience so far in making a Xeon class

00:10:10   processor.

00:10:11   So even if they did make one, the best

00:10:13   could hope for is probably like parity or a slight edge on Intel's things because they

00:10:16   can make different choices. But give them four or five years and I think they'd be doing

00:10:20   really well. But who knows, then we wouldn't be able to run Windows as well as we can now,

00:10:25   so that would be sad.

00:10:26   Who runs Windows anymore? What year is this?

00:10:28   I do. Casey does.

00:10:29   I used to. No, I don't. I don't anymore. I used to.

00:10:31   Yeah, Casey's a real developer now.

00:10:33   Ooh, sick burn. But yay!

00:10:36   Yeah, my apologies to everyone who has to develop on Windows. I feel bad for you.

00:10:41   - Hey man, I maintain C# is an unbelievably good language,

00:10:44   it's just everything around it that's garbage.

00:10:46   - I agree, I completely agree.

00:10:48   Yeah, and Microsoft has almost always been really good

00:10:52   at developer tooling, like they're really good at that.

00:10:55   Just Windows is terrible,

00:10:57   but the developer tools are usually great, but yeah.

00:11:00   And one thing before we cap off this topic is that

00:11:04   I do think that even though my example of the 150 watt

00:11:07   Mac Pro slash high-end iMac chip

00:11:11   would maybe be hard for them to move to.

00:11:14   The A10X, the iPad class of chip that they're making now,

00:11:18   which is not that different from the iPhone class

00:11:20   chip they're making, is probably suitable

00:11:24   for at least the bottom two lines of MacBooks.

00:11:27   At least the MacBook 12 inch and at least the,

00:11:30   what I call the MacBook escape,

00:11:31   the non-touch bar 13 inch MacBook Pro.

00:11:34   I bet they could make an A series chip

00:11:36   that would be very competitive in those two form factors.

00:11:41   - Yeah, I mean, they already do, practically.

00:11:43   - Yeah, exactly.

00:11:44   - It's just a question of the GPU.

00:11:45   And by the way, it's making me think about Mac losing out,

00:11:48   like, oh, so they're missing out on Apple's,

00:11:50   on the potential of Apple's expertise

00:11:52   in the areas where they've been shown

00:11:53   they can make a really good chip,

00:11:54   and their potential expertise for higher bandwidth chips.

00:11:57   And also, Apple thus far is missing out

00:12:00   on the other place that the action is happening

00:12:01   that's relevant to the Mac in terms of silicon chips

00:12:05   that are inside there.

00:12:06   Nvidia GPUs.

00:12:07   That is currently where a lot of the exciting high-end action

00:12:10   is happening on desktop computers.

00:12:13   And Apple is thus far pretending it doesn't exist

00:12:17   and continuing to ship AMD/ATI GPUs, which are fine,

00:12:21   but it's not-- it's like the excitement is happening

00:12:24   on the ARM side with Apple's own things.

00:12:26   And in the GPU land, the discrete GPU land,

00:12:28   the excitement is happening on Nvidia's side of the fence.

00:12:31   And Apple is like, no, we're just going to go Intel and AMD,

00:12:34   and we'll just ignore all those fireworks

00:12:36   and then the happy laughter happening in other areas.

00:12:39   - And I do think ultimately one of the biggest reasons

00:12:44   why we're unlikely to see ARM Macs

00:12:46   for the foreseeable future is I really don't think

00:12:50   that a lot of Mac apps would be rewritten

00:12:54   or recompiled for ARM in a prompt manner.

00:12:57   I think the Mac is, some parts of the Mac are very healthy,

00:13:02   content creation, high-end productivity tools,

00:13:05   these are fairly healthy,

00:13:07   but there's a whole lot of Mac apps out there

00:13:11   that are basically unmaintained,

00:13:13   and some of which are very, very old.

00:13:14   And they continue to work now,

00:13:16   just because the architecture hasn't changed in a long time,

00:13:18   in over 10 years, and so they continue to work,

00:13:23   but I worry if Apple were to force an incompatible move

00:13:28   to the basis of the operating system,

00:13:30   I worry about what would happen to the app ecosystem.

00:13:34   I bet we'd lose a lot of apps.

00:13:36   As we're seeing right now with, I mean look, iOS,

00:13:38   in this way, iOS is way healthier than the Mac OS.

00:13:43   And the transition to iOS 11 is losing lots of apps.

00:13:46   Just from the 64-bit change, it was only a few years ago.

00:13:49   For the Mac to change CPU architectures,

00:13:53   it would be, I think, really difficult

00:13:57   to move a lot of Mac software over.

00:13:59   just because so much of it's un-maintained.

00:14:01   - Numerically, iOS obviously will lose more

00:14:03   'cause it's numerically got so much more.

00:14:05   But on the Mac, I have some confidence.

00:14:07   The Mac has gone through this multiple times

00:14:09   before in the past that, yes, you always leave stuff behind,

00:14:11   but the apps that we care about would be ported,

00:14:14   just like they were ported from 68K to PowerPC,

00:14:17   and those same apps that we care about

00:14:19   that still aren't reported from PowerPC to Intel,

00:14:21   and they were ported from Intel 32-bit to 64-bit,

00:14:23   and they would be ported from 64-bit.

00:14:26   The apps we care about would be ported.

00:14:27   This is maybe like one or two random abandoned apps that you would lose.

00:14:31   But numerically speaking, on iOS there's just so many apps and we all have some.

00:14:36   I think, do you think you have more apps installed on, cumulatively on your iOS devices or on

00:14:41   your Macs?

00:14:42   Like numerically, each application icon counts as one thing.

00:14:45   Oh, it's no question, iOS.

00:14:47   I would guess the same.

00:14:49   Yeah, yeah, yeah, probably.

00:14:51   Maybe not on my iPad.

00:14:52   On my iPhone, yes.

00:14:53   I think my iPad is relatively lean and mean,

00:14:55   but iPhone, yeah, I think Marco's right.

00:14:58   - How many applications are in your applications folder?

00:15:01   On your Mac, just pick a random Mac.

00:15:03   - I have 129.

00:15:05   - 112.

00:15:06   - Although many of these I barely even recognize,

00:15:08   so I long show infrequently.

00:15:10   - I know, we all have junk in there.

00:15:12   Oh, this is reassuring.

00:15:14   So in my applications folder,

00:15:17   I have two applications called system preferences,

00:15:20   which apparently have exactly the same name.

00:15:22   - That's good.

00:15:24   - This does not make me feel good.

00:15:27   This is from 2014, and the second one is from 2015 and 2016.

00:15:31   And one of them does not have a .app extension.

00:15:37   That makes me feel good.

00:15:39   - I gotta clear a lot of this crap out of here, my God.

00:15:42   - Anyway, you wanna guess how many applications

00:15:44   I have in my application?

00:15:44   - I mean, if I have 129 and I keep things pretty minimal,

00:15:48   I'm gonna guess you have 200 maybe?

00:15:51   - Yeah, I'm gonna say 250-ish.

00:15:52   Is it Price is Right rules?

00:15:54   - No.

00:15:55   - Oh, okay, then I don't have to bet one application.

00:15:58   - 311.

00:16:00   - Oof.

00:16:01   - Wow.

00:16:02   - Goodness.

00:16:03   - But how many do you actually use on a regular basis?

00:16:06   - Not 311.

00:16:07   - I probably use something like 20 or 30 on a regular basis.

00:16:12   I mean, the Mac tools tend to be larger in scope

00:16:16   and fewer in number for a lot of people.

00:16:20   I would bet.

00:16:22   There's a lot more like large productivity tools,

00:16:25   large creation tools, large library tools,

00:16:27   as opposed to an iOS where you have a whole bunch of stuff

00:16:30   that does like little things or one thing at a time.

00:16:33   Not to mention, iOS has games,

00:16:35   and the Mac unfortunately doesn't.

00:16:38   - I do have a subfolder for games, let's see what's in that.

00:16:42   - I have a subfolder for Mac ports that I haven't touched.

00:16:44   - I mean, I have a Steam icon there too, all right?

00:16:47   So the games folder only have 42 items,

00:16:49   but there are subfolders in there,

00:16:50   So it just goes on and on and on.

00:16:52   I got a lot of-- here's the thing.

00:16:54   The reason I have so many applications

00:16:55   is they don't-- on the Mac, applications

00:16:58   aren't in your face like they are in iOS.

00:17:00   Like in Springboard, they're in your face

00:17:02   unless you bury them in a folder, like all of them are.

00:17:05   I don't watch applications if I go to the application folder.

00:17:07   Nobody does.

00:17:08   You do Command Space or whatever, right?

00:17:09   Yeah, of course.

00:17:10   And whenever I use Disk Inventory X or whatever

00:17:13   to find out where all my space is being taken up,

00:17:15   it's never with applications.

00:17:16   Because in the grand scheme of things, they're tiny.

00:17:18   my one terabyte drive, even a huge application.

00:17:21   Maybe occasionally, like Marco, I

00:17:22   get cranky at some multi-gigabyte sound samples

00:17:25   that are part of some stupid Apple application.

00:17:27   But other than that, all the data is elsewhere.

00:17:31   So I never ended up deleting applications.

00:17:33   I look in here, and I've got-- I don't know.

00:17:36   Multiple old-- I've got Delicious Library 2 and 3.

00:17:39   I've got many applications where they're

00:17:41   like the history of the application

00:17:42   is present in the folder as the versions and the numbers

00:17:45   and the icons go up.

00:17:46   And I never ended up deleting them because it's not as,

00:17:49   and don't get me wrong, my iOS home screens

00:17:51   are also a giant graveyard of ancient files,

00:17:54   which is why I'm kind of dreading

00:17:55   when they drop 32-bit support, 'cause it's gonna,

00:17:57   well, dreading and looking forward to it,

00:17:59   'cause it'll reduce the number of applications by half,

00:18:01   because I think I still have applications there

00:18:03   from my original iPod Touch that have just been

00:18:06   carrying along from iTunes backup to iTunes backup.

00:18:08   - I only had, I think, two.

00:18:10   Yeah, I have Scorekeeper XL and iCast Pro.

00:18:14   and the scorekeeper developer said he's updating it.

00:18:17   iCast has already done a new version

00:18:19   that's like a million dollars, so,

00:18:20   you know, they're not actually really going to be lost.

00:18:24   - Is iCast the thing you use to do

00:18:26   the live broadcasts from the road?

00:18:29   - I used to, yes.

00:18:30   It's an iCast server, or an iCast broadcaster, rather.

00:18:34   So I used to do that from the road.

00:18:36   Now I just bring a Mac and use

00:18:38   Vrgaminba's nicecast app, 'cause it's,

00:18:40   'cause it really, I mean, what I learned, you know,

00:18:43   while doing our live show and setting up for that

00:18:46   and doing various things over the last few years,

00:18:48   I've learned basically that I greatly prefer Macs

00:18:52   to be in those kind of production roles

00:18:55   and not just for superstition of Macs being reliable

00:18:58   and iOS not being, but just for the flexibility they offer.

00:19:01   And you can do these things on iOS if you need to,

00:19:05   but I'm much happier and more versatile

00:19:08   when I'm doing it on the Mac, if that makes sense.

00:19:10   I mean, we all know that you can't get work done on iOS,

00:19:13   so that's why you're doing it on a Mac.

00:19:15   - Oh my God, I still have Firefox?

00:19:17   (laughing)

00:19:19   Does anybody still use Firefox?

00:19:21   - So we've gone during the pre-show

00:19:23   that hopefully has not hit the regular show

00:19:26   of watching TV as a group,

00:19:28   and now we're letting all the people listen to us

00:19:31   plunge through and go spelunking

00:19:33   through our application folders as a group.

00:19:35   This is the best--

00:19:36   - I still have MakeMKV.

00:19:36   I haven't ripped a Blu-ray in years.

00:19:38   - I just did that yesterday.

00:19:40   - I have Firefox, I also have MakeMKV.

00:19:43   - Yeah, I just ripped Days of Thunder yesterday.

00:19:46   It's a great movie.

00:19:47   - See, I don't need to rip anything,

00:19:48   I can just play some off of your Plex server.

00:19:51   - I know, that's exactly what I was doing.

00:19:53   We bought Days of Thunder on Blu-ray,

00:19:55   but Blu-rays are barbaric, and so I immediately ripped it,

00:19:59   and it is now on Plex.

00:20:00   - Ooh, I still have OpenTTD, I should play that.

00:20:02   The Transport Tycoon.

00:20:03   - Oh, so good.

00:20:04   I have applications with the circle with a line through it,

00:20:09   I should just probably delete those.

00:20:10   - I don't think I've ever even seen that.

00:20:12   - Did not run on my fancy new version of Mac OS

00:20:17   called El Capitan.

00:20:18   - Man, I can't even imagine cleaning out

00:20:20   John's 10 year old computer like that.

00:20:23   What you must find there.

00:20:24   - Just never clean it, that's the secret.

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00:22:15   for sponsoring our show once again.

00:22:17   - So in the show notes, near-ish the top,

00:22:25   but never ever ever high enough for us

00:22:28   to actually talk about it, has been three words,

00:22:31   and it has been here four months.

00:22:35   And those three words are Netflix credits skipping.

00:22:39   And apparently this is enough, and Jon is flustered enough,

00:22:43   that he would like to talk to us about skipping credits

00:22:47   in Netflix.

00:22:48   I don't know why I'm in for this ride as much as you guys are.

00:22:52   So let's all buckle up together.

00:22:54   We are really scraping the bottom of the barrel here.

00:22:56   We really are.

00:22:57   You know why this is in there.

00:22:59   I mean, the link there explains it.

00:23:01   So this is from March.

00:23:02   So yes, it has been there for many, many months.

00:23:05   The story-- we'll link to the Verge thing--

00:23:07   is by now, that's the only URL we have for the story,

00:23:09   is that Netflix, in their normal way,

00:23:11   was testing this new feature on some platforms

00:23:15   and some clients for Netflix.

00:23:16   That when you're watching a show on Netflix

00:23:19   and the credits come on, the opening credits to the show,

00:23:22   there would be a button in the interface somewhere

00:23:25   that says skip credits.

00:23:27   And if you click that, it would skip it.

00:23:28   When we were in Chicago, we were finishing up House of Cards.

00:23:31   And I had done that by connecting my MacBook Adorable

00:23:34   to the TV.

00:23:35   And I saw and used that button.

00:23:37   And so that was on the web client.

00:23:39   Yeah, and I'm not sure where they're rolling it out to

00:23:41   and what clients or whatever.

00:23:43   But it's not everywhere.

00:23:44   And it seems like it's the thing they're testing.

00:23:45   Now, already for several years, Netflix has had a thing

00:23:48   where if you're binge watching and you watch one episode

00:23:50   and the next episode's gonna come,

00:23:52   that it will not show the credits to the subsequent episode.

00:23:55   So it'll just get right to the program.

00:23:56   I've seen that.

00:23:57   I don't know if that's show specific or whatever,

00:23:58   but it's been doing that for a long time.

00:24:00   So if you sit down and watch five episodes of a program,

00:24:03   you don't have to see the opening credits five times.

00:24:04   But you would have to see it once for the first one.

00:24:07   And now with the skip credits thing,

00:24:08   it'll be like if you don't want to see the opening credits

00:24:10   to House of Cards because you're afraid you'll die of old age,

00:24:15   and you're on the right interface,

00:24:17   you can click this button to skip it.

00:24:19   And the reason I put this in the notes so long ago is that--

00:24:26   four years ago?

00:24:27   Four years before this feature was added to Netflix,

00:24:30   I, in one of my rare fits of blogging,

00:24:32   wrote a blog post about this very thing,

00:24:34   about the idea of credit skipping

00:24:38   in Netflix-type environments specifically.

00:24:40   It was also in the context of the PlayStation 4,

00:24:42   which was not yet out, but had been announced,

00:24:44   and the features had been announced,

00:24:45   and the title of this post is Annoyance-Driven Development,

00:24:48   the idea that you look at a technology product

00:24:52   or something that you're working on

00:24:53   and think about the things that annoy you and other people

00:24:57   about your product and try to knock those down one by one,

00:25:01   even if they seem silly.

00:25:03   I think-- refreshing my memory on this thing--

00:25:05   that the PlayStation examples were things

00:25:08   like being able to pick up a game right where you left off

00:25:10   and not having the thing start downloading a software update

00:25:15   as soon as you turn it on.

00:25:16   And so they did a lot of things in the PlayStation 4

00:25:18   to remove the annoyances of the PlayStation 3

00:25:21   by giving it a low power mode and an auxiliary processor

00:25:24   that let it do useful things when it's quote unquote off.

00:25:26   Like the fans are off, it's sitting there,

00:25:28   you think it's completely off, but it's not.

00:25:30   It's downloading software updates in the background.

00:25:32   It's preserving the state of your game

00:25:34   so you can pick up right where you left off.

00:25:36   Even Nintendo has come on this bandwagon

00:25:37   a little bit with the Switch

00:25:38   where you can put the thing into sleep mode,

00:25:41   pick it up, get it out of sleep mode,

00:25:42   and you are exactly at the second you left off

00:25:44   in your Zelda game,

00:25:46   which makes you wanna pick it up and play

00:25:48   more than if you had to wait through a boot sequence

00:25:50   launch the game again or something like that.

00:25:52   And software updates, which are ubiquitous nowadays, having to download multiple gigabytes

00:25:58   of stuff while you sleep so that when you wake up it's all just already there for you

00:26:02   is a great example of annoying driven development.

00:26:04   Because it's not the end of the world, like, oh, software updates have to happen and there's

00:26:06   no getting around the fact that you've got to have multiple gigabytes and we can't make

00:26:09   your internet connection faster.

00:26:10   It's like, but can we design the PlayStation 4 in a way to make this less annoying for

00:26:15   people?

00:26:16   so far I still have a separate mode with a separate CPU and a low power state of like

00:26:21   it complicates the hardware tremendously but it's a big win.

00:26:24   So in terms of streaming video, I was using House of Cards as an example because the credit

00:26:29   sequence is really, really long.

00:26:30   I was saying how Netflix has changed how you watch television and how you have to reconsider

00:26:35   every part of the experience and think about how annoying it is.

00:26:37   And the opening credits aren't annoying in the old world of television where there were

00:26:41   no DVRs and you just watched television when it was on and that was it.

00:26:46   were annoying but that's all a separate issue. But already with people with Netflix and streaming

00:26:50   video they understand that people do binge watching and they did that thing where it

00:26:53   will skip the credits to the next episode. They just need to go to the next step. Also

00:26:57   by the way, releasing entire seasons all at once instead of doling them out an episode

00:27:00   at the time. They reconsidered so many things and this seemed like the very next thing on

00:27:04   the chopping block which is, hey, credits. They make sense when you are watching television

00:27:09   in the old world. In the new world do they make as much sense to have opening credits

00:27:13   before every single episode or before any episode.

00:27:16   And I know, as I said in this post,

00:27:17   there's lots of things about union contracts

00:27:20   for screen actors and writers and everything.

00:27:22   And then there's the other angle of like,

00:27:24   oh, people should get credit for their work and blah, blah,

00:27:25   blah, like basically the motivation behind

00:27:28   all those union rules and everything.

00:27:29   But I think you can't, you have to change,

00:27:34   you have to change your outlook and the rules

00:27:37   surrounding all this stuff as the technology changes.

00:27:39   And technology is changing how we watch television.

00:27:42   And so every single aspect of how we watch television should be up for grabs for reconsideration to say is this the best way to do it?

00:27:49   Or is there a better way given how technology has changed how we watch television apparently Netflix eventually how many years later?

00:27:56   four years later eventually more or less agrees with me that

00:28:00   Maybe the credits are a little bit too much and maybe we should give people the option of skipping them entirely if they want

00:28:06   There's already no commercials. So they've already got that going for them

00:28:09   So anyway, I was excited enough about this in March to put it in the in the show notes and to leave it there

00:28:15   And now I finally get to talk about it

00:28:17   And I feel like this is I'm not gonna say it's vindication because I know a lot of people

00:28:22   agreed with me when I originally posted this but it's more of a celebration to say

00:28:26   You know, I'm I'm actually getting the thing that I was asking for and it seemed inevitable because Netflix is very aggressive these type of

00:28:32   Things I'm just I'm actually surprised it took four years for them to do it, but more like this, please

00:28:37   Wow.

00:28:38   Cool.

00:28:39   I feel better for having listened to that.

00:28:46   Nothing you said was wrong, but I felt like this has been sitting in the show notes, like

00:28:50   almost there, but not quite there for months, and I was expecting some sort of level.

00:28:56   It's not timely.

00:28:57   It's not like, you know, it doesn't go bad.

00:28:58   Oh, Jon, I love you so much.

00:29:00   And you don't have a product to speak of now that...

00:29:04   What did Dr. Wave say to your application?

00:29:07   was? Was it a fart app? Oh, yes. I was so confused.

00:29:12   Well, it's kind of like I got farting. I don't know. Anyway, Marko's got a problem. Anybody

00:29:17   who's listening to this who has a product or is involved in making a thing that people

00:29:20   use, it's a potential edge in the market. Think about what is annoying about using products

00:29:27   of your type, and in the next version of your product, try to eliminate those annoyances

00:29:31   and don't keep any sacred cows like, "Oh, we can't change that." You'll find a lot of

00:29:36   You'll find a lot of people hold sacred many things they won't even consider changing.

00:29:40   Like, you have to consider everything and reconsider it in the face of technology and

00:29:44   find the annoying things and be willing to do what Sony did.

00:29:49   Make your product way more complicated and way more expensive, potentially introducing

00:29:54   bugs, because the payoff is when people turn on the PlayStation 4, the 11 gigabytes of

00:29:59   the Destiny 2 beta is already downloaded and the system update has already happened and

00:30:04   they can start playing immediately.

00:30:05   Even if it takes forever to download, if it does it while you're sleeping, you don't care.

00:30:09   And it's 100% worth it to add an entire separate CPU and low power state and special OS mode

00:30:14   for this.

00:30:16   And also skip those House of Cards credits because come on, we've all seen them enough

00:30:19   now.

00:30:20   So long.

00:30:21   I mean, they're beautiful, but they're so long.

00:30:22   Oh my word, it takes forever.

00:30:24   So long.

00:30:25   So long.

00:30:26   All right, so let's talk about something that always cheers us up.

00:30:31   Twitter!

00:30:32   And a while back, there was...

00:30:33   God, I can't even remember when this was.

00:30:35   How long was it? How long was a while ago, Casey?

00:30:37   Apparently it was October of 2016.

00:30:40   Why are we talking about a news article from October 2016?

00:30:42   I have a reason for this one too.

00:30:44   Oh my god.

00:30:45   Bring it out, you're dead. That's right.

00:30:47   I'm so sorry, listeners, for this entire episode.

00:30:51   You apologize here. Where do episodes come from, Marco? When three podcasters love each

00:30:56   other very much? Somehow, every week there's an episode, and it's because somebody, some

00:31:03   elves go into the show notes and find a bunch of topics and put them in there. And if you're

00:31:08   not going to do it, guess what? I'm going to do it. And then you don't get to complain

00:31:11   about the things that we talk about and try to apologize for the listeners for things

00:31:14   we're talking about. Because guess what? I build the show in the notes and that's what

00:31:18   we're going to talk about. If you want to talk about something, feel free to rotate

00:31:20   something up to the top and then we'll talk about that instead. In fact, I will offer

00:31:24   that opportunity to you now because I just talked about Netflix credit shipping. Is there

00:31:27   something that you would like to talk about that you would like to move up?

00:31:31   Let me see.

00:31:32   Overcast Springboard Crasher stories? That's a good one.

00:31:34   It's kind of boring.

00:31:35   No, it's not.

00:31:36   I think it's exciting.

00:31:37   It's exciting.

00:31:38   It was exciting when it happened, but now I've forgotten most about it and probably

00:31:41   you do too. But it was cool.

00:31:42   It's not even old. It's not even old by comparison to October of 2016.

00:31:46   It was a couple of months ago.

00:31:49   In a surprising turn of events, Marco did not immediately Command-A and then delete

00:31:53   the entire show notes in a fit of rage just moments ago.

00:31:58   (laughing)

00:31:59   - Oh my word.

00:32:00   - The secret is he doesn't look at them most of the time.

00:32:01   So that's-- - That is accurate.

00:32:03   - So down, if we scroll down a couple pages,

00:32:04   we have an item that says-- - Oh God.

00:32:06   - TSMC ahead of Intel on process soon, question mark?

00:32:09   - Look at that, the show notes.

00:32:10   (laughing)

00:32:11   They're like a crystal ball.

00:32:13   (laughing)

00:32:15   - Look at the slug on this.

00:32:17   10 nanometer chip foundry process coming to Apple partner

00:32:21   TM TSMC ahead of Intel.

00:32:23   - And it was from the ever reliable news source.

00:32:26   AppleInsider.com.

00:32:27   This is dated September of '16.

00:32:30   Oh my word.

00:32:31   We didn't talk about it, but guess what?

00:32:33   They did it.

00:32:34   It came true.

00:32:35   Maybe this is how we can make things come true.

00:32:36   Just put them in our show notes.

00:32:37   Put them in the show notes and it's like burying a time capsule.

00:32:42   Our show notes are the crock pot of Apple news.

00:32:46   Just wait long enough.

00:32:47   It's going to be there.

00:32:48   Oh my God.

00:32:50   All right, so let's talk about Disney since Marco hasn't come up with something better.

00:32:54   It'll be the Marco show after this when we talk about overcast and springboard.

00:32:57   Marco should start remembering now all the details of the springboard graduate stuff.

00:33:02   Did you know that letterpress moved off of Game Center?

00:33:04   I did.

00:33:05   I didn't know that.

00:33:06   That's down here too.

00:33:07   We should just—you know what we should do?

00:33:12   If we get really desperate, we should go from the bottom up and just say, "We're dedicated.

00:33:16   We have to do it.

00:33:17   We have to do it.

00:33:18   Just start at the bottom."

00:33:19   Oh, my word.

00:33:21   This is so bad.

00:33:22   Anyway, all right, I'm just trying to bring this back around.

00:33:25   So at some point one day eventually, or years ago it seems, there was some talk in late

00:33:31   2016 about Twitter potentially looking to be bought.

00:33:36   And there were some potential suitors, I don't remember who they were other than Disney.

00:33:39   What, some Salesforce in the running?

00:33:42   Ah, maybe.

00:33:43   And so what ended up happening, and I didn't get a chance to look at these show notes and

00:33:46   refresh my memory, so being Chief Summarizer-in-Chief is a little dangerous today, but my recollection

00:33:52   is that Disney was kind of sniffing around, saying, "Eh, maybe we do want Twitter," and

00:33:58   then realized, "Oh, wait, Twitter's a cesspool of disgusting, terrible people, so yeah, we

00:34:03   don't want anything to do with that."

00:34:04   Well, the reason I put this in there, not because I don't care about this, whatever,

00:34:08   people buying Disney, that's old news.

00:34:11   I don't know why it stayed in the notes, I probably would have deleted it, but I saw

00:34:13   it down there, and it brought to mind something, what was it, it was relevant, it's eternally

00:34:20   relevant. I forget what the specific inciting incident was, but it's about when you have

00:34:25   an online community of any kind. Oh, I know what it was. It was the PUBG thing. You guys don't

00:34:33   follow this. Do you know what that is? Nope.

00:34:35   Anyways, it's a new game, Player Unknown Battlegrounds. It's a game. It's a cool game.

00:34:40   You'll like the premise of it. We love games.

00:34:43   Yeah. Well, no, it's a game mode. I think it might've started as a mod and now it's

00:34:48   it's his own game, I'd always get confused about the details.

00:34:50   But anyway, you are like an army guy.

00:34:52   You parachute into this fairly realistic looking world,

00:34:57   like a big open field with some trees and buildings

00:34:59   and stuff like that, and you have to sort of scrounge

00:35:02   for weapons and bandages and stuff like that,

00:35:05   and it's fairly realistic in that you can't take

00:35:07   500 bullets, like a few bullets kills you, right?

00:35:10   And there are teams, and there is sort of a gamey,

00:35:16   shimmery circle, ring, dome around the entire play area that starts off really, really big,

00:35:22   but it slowly shrinks over time, eventually corralling all the people together. And eventually

00:35:28   there's one person who's left alive, right? So your strategy could be, I'm just going to crawl

00:35:32   in the grass and hide behind this tree and be like a mile away from everybody, but the circle

00:35:35   will shrink and shrink and shrink. And if you're not out there fighting, you're also not getting

00:35:38   better weapons and getting healing supplies and stuff like that. So it's a fun game mode.

00:35:45   And they're fun videos to watch because there are teams in this friendly fire and there's no radar or anything like that.

00:35:50   You're just crawling around and going through buildings and some people camp out in buildings and you just go around a door and there's a guy.

00:35:55   Anyway, it's a very popular game right now.

00:35:57   And the guy who made the game has community standards for his game, basically saying if you intentionally kill people on your team because friendly fire is a thing, that's against the rules and you get banned.

00:36:09   Temporarily banned and I assume you keep doing it permanently banned.

00:36:12   Because that's bad behavior. We don't want someone who comes to you join a game and the guy in your team kills everybody on his own

00:36:16   Teams takes their stuff like no, we don't have that right and he did that to like a popular streamer like twitch streamer

00:36:23   and the switch streamer was cranky about it and

00:36:26   Said some jokey things to him about like how he's gonna kick him in the face or something like that

00:36:30   and the guy

00:36:33   Because he had temporarily banned him and he explained to him

00:36:36   Why he doesn't tolerate even jokey sort of threats of violence or whatever

00:36:40   And anyway, that was the story like game creator,

00:36:44   bands popular streamer and has to explain to him why he doesn't

00:36:48   think threats of violence are funny, you know, counter to everything

00:36:52   and macho stupid gamer dude culture. Right.

00:36:55   And it made me think of Twitter and anybody who has any kind of community,

00:36:59   whether it's the game that you made and the standards

00:37:01   you make for the people who play your game online or Twitter,

00:37:03   who makes a service that they let people use or, you know, just think of anything

00:37:07   like if you have a website and you have comment section

00:37:10   or you have the old style web bulletin boards or whatever,

00:37:14   online communities and the policing of them.

00:37:17   It always amazes me, or Reddit is a great example,

00:37:20   it always amazes me how reluctant people are

00:37:24   in these communities to enforce their will.

00:37:29   So we all have opinions about what we think is good

00:37:34   and what's not good,

00:37:35   but the standard sort of non-oppressed majority opinion

00:37:40   of like, I'm not in a group

00:37:47   that is frequently the target of abuse,

00:37:51   or I'm at the top of the pyramid,

00:37:52   therefore I think everyone should be able to do everything.

00:37:55   So even though I think something is bad,

00:37:58   I'm not going to tell people in my community

00:38:00   that they can't do that thing

00:38:02   because who am I to judge, right?

00:38:04   And even removing the motivation, just the whole idea of like, I want my community to

00:38:09   be a place where everyone is free to be themselves and do whatever the heck they want.

00:38:13   And it almost seems to me at various times on Twitter and other places that there is

00:38:18   nothing so terrible that the community, the people who run the community would decide

00:38:23   that it's not allowed, right?

00:38:24   So it's like, I'm trying to think of something for the show that I could use as an example.

00:38:27   Like someone comes in and says, I'm in favor of eating babies.

00:38:31   I love to eat babies.

00:38:33   They come out and I just eat them instantly, right?

00:38:35   Perfectly healthy babies, I eat them, right?

00:38:37   And people are like, you know, we don't like baby eating.

00:38:40   Can you ban all the people who promote baby eating

00:38:44   in this community?

00:38:44   'Cause they're really annoying

00:38:45   and we're all against it, right?

00:38:47   Like everyone here in this community of, you know,

00:38:50   knitters or woodworking people or, you know,

00:38:55   go-kart enthusiasts or whatever,

00:38:59   can we just say that if you promote the eating of babies,

00:39:02   you get banned, like no baby eaters, right?

00:39:06   And people around the community are like, "Well, I don't like eating babies.

00:39:10   And I know most people don't like it, but those people should have the right to talk

00:39:13   about baby eating."

00:39:14   It's like, "What do you mean the right?

00:39:17   It's your community.

00:39:18   It's a website that you made.

00:39:19   It's a product that you made.

00:39:21   You're not the US government.

00:39:23   They can talk about eating babies all they want on their front lawn.

00:39:26   I don't want them in this community."

00:39:28   And so they decide to make a community where everyone is allowed to do everything.

00:39:31   Because that feels like egalitarian for them and you know, it's freedom and even if they don't invoke freedom of speech

00:39:35   It's like this is the kind of community we want

00:39:37   we want a community everyone is feels free to say anything they want even is about baby eating and

00:39:41   There's a place for that type of thing. I think you usually call that place 4chan, right, but whatever

00:39:46   But it it it's

00:39:51   Continues to be amazing to me that you see so little of the other thing where they say, you know

00:39:56   What this is my community and I don't like baby eating and if you talk about baby eating here

00:40:00   You're banned forever and they're like that's not fair just because you don't like yeah. Yeah, just because I don't like baby eating

00:40:07   That's the only reason and this is my community right whether it's this guy with his game

00:40:11   And that's why you get a situation where this person saying hey

00:40:15   Killing people on your team is bad and threats of violence on Twitter are bad and you're gonna get banned for it

00:40:20   That's why it's a story like that's a story in the gaming news. It's it's a man bites dog story, right?

00:40:27   Like whoa someone someone decided like their own personal opinion and they enforce their own personal opinion on their community

00:40:33   Is this person the worst person ever enforcing their own personal opinion now in Twitter?

00:40:37   There's no personal opinion or because Twitter is a giant massive corporation, but they have the same problem that they seem

00:40:42   unable to choose to enforce

00:40:45   You know any kind of standards was like well

00:40:49   We don't want to enforce our standards and other people on the exam

00:40:51   I use baby eating because I was hoping to find something that everyone or audience would be like, yeah

00:40:54   against baby eating. Now the pro baby eating people go ahead and email us, whatever, but

00:40:58   now I'm going to say one that I would have used years ago in place of baby eating,

00:41:02   feeling confident that everyone who's listening to my voice would be like, "Yeah, totally baby

00:41:05   eating is bad." But unfortunately, I cannot think that these days. And that is the example

00:41:10   from Twitter where Twitter is like, "Hey, are you the neo-Nazi party? You want to promote a Nazi

00:41:17   agenda? You're fine on Twitter. As long as you don't threaten violence or blah, blah, blah,

00:41:22   or violate one of our things that we decide we're okay with Nazis like if they just want to talk peacefully about Nazi stuff

00:41:28   That's fine with us as long as they don't threaten violence, right?

00:41:30   Isn't all of their speech kind of well

00:41:33   Like I would just hope that Twitter as a company be like, you know what?

00:41:37   Even if Nazis are just like talking calmly about you know, they're they're not see agenda

00:41:43   No, no Nazis like it not like are you in a group? Are you in the new Nazis? You're in an organization, right?

00:41:50   Are you affiliated with them? Do you promote that in any way? You're banned. It's like, whoa, you can't ban them. That's freedom

00:41:56   It's like no no, they can have their meetings like they can talk about their Nazi things. They just can't be on Twitter

00:42:01   but

00:42:03   Twitter seemingly cannot bring itself to do that because it would be seen as like oh

00:42:08   Twitter don't go there because they don't let you if they don't like what they're saying they ban you right and not just like

00:42:12   You know things that we all agree are bad

00:42:14   But just like political ideas like the Nazi Party like some people are just into that man

00:42:19   Why can't you just like can't we just say no and Twitter and many other companies inability to draw the line

00:42:25   Yeah, and drop whatever Twitter wants to draw it like they I feel like you know, you lose all the Nazi people

00:42:32   Yeah, the Nazi people will go elsewhere. They'll have to go someplace else like well

00:42:35   But if I ban if I ban too many things everyone will leave and our daily active users will go

00:42:39   It's like you have you have to make that choice. I feel confident if I was running Twitter that if we ban all the Nazis just

00:42:46   on principle, like they don't have to do anything bad, they're just gone, right?

00:42:50   That you won't lose too many users, and the users you do lose, it's good that you're losing them,

00:42:56   right? And so it frustrates me as a user of Twitter and many other services to see the

00:43:02   unwillingness to enforce personal standards. And even if more people did this, that would mean

00:43:10   people are going to have weird personal standards. They're going to be like, "Sorry, nobody's name

00:43:13   name begins with the letter J, and then I can't join their service and I would be mad

00:43:16   about it, right? But it's their service. Like, they can make up their own stupid rules, right?

00:43:20   I'm just saying, like, maybe the baby eaters and the Nazis, maybe get rid of them. And

00:43:24   it's like, well, who cares? Twitter is being more successful if they let everybody in.

00:43:28   But things like these rumors about, oh, someone was going to buy you, but your service is

00:43:32   a cesspool, that, you know, your choices have a material effect on your company, not just

00:43:39   on the users, which you should care about, like, what's it like to use Twitter? The decisions

00:43:43   about what is and isn't allowed affect what it's like to use Twitter. They also affect

00:43:47   potentially who's willing to buy you, right? And they affect your image like there's tangible

00:43:52   and intangible repercussions to this. So I continue to hope that more services will act

00:43:59   like small services with one opinionated person, like the guy who runs the, you know, Player

00:44:05   unknowns battlegrounds to say I have rules and these are my rules and you

00:44:10   might not like the rules that's my damn game you don't like the rules go

00:44:13   somewhere else make your own game right you don't like the rules in Twitter

00:44:16   Nazis we're banning you all from Twitter go make your own service go someplace

00:44:21   else go do another thing because we're not the US government so anyway I'm

00:44:25   against baby eating I'm against Nazis I'm also against player killing in

00:44:29   in Battleground.

00:44:30   - How do you feel about people who's name is being with Jay?

00:44:34   - Neutral.

00:44:34   (laughing)

00:44:37   A lot of people's name is being with Jay, come on.

00:44:41   - We are sponsored this week by Eero.

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00:47:15   - Marco, you had some very interesting

00:47:24   overcast crashes that you had a little bit of trouble figuring out and justifiably because

00:47:30   having heard this story back a couple of months ago when you did discover what this fix was,

00:47:35   I thought to myself, my goodness, I don't know if I would have ever been able to figure

00:47:38   this out. But I think it's a really interesting, to the best of your recollection, story of

00:47:45   both what was going on, why it was going on, and how you discovered it. So can you take

00:47:49   us through this, maybe starting with like, how did you discover there was an issue in

00:47:53   in the first place.

00:47:54   - iTunes Connect, the backend for the App Store,

00:47:58   reports your number of crashes for each version of your app.

00:48:01   And this is as reported by people who opt in

00:48:04   to sharing the stats with Apple and developers

00:48:07   during the iPhone setup process.

00:48:09   I started seeing a big uptick in crashes,

00:48:11   and I started noticing a separate problem too,

00:48:13   which is my app would crash in the background a lot,

00:48:17   and I'd get all these crash logs for background crashes.

00:48:20   I didn't immediately identify it as such.

00:48:22   What I immediately saw was my app would not resume playback

00:48:27   if you hadn't been running it in a while.

00:48:29   So if you sent a play command,

00:48:31   let's say you get in your car and the Bluetooth turns on

00:48:34   and it sends a play command,

00:48:35   or you put on Bluetooth headphones

00:48:36   and you hit the play button on them.

00:48:37   I noticed that the app was not in memory anymore.

00:48:40   I started getting reports that were auto-generated

00:48:43   from Springboard that it was terminating me

00:48:45   in the background for holding onto a shared lock

00:48:50   on the database file.

00:48:52   So I did a number of things to try to fix this.

00:48:55   I read somewhere that if you open up

00:48:58   a background task assertion, so in,

00:49:01   I forget how, if the Mac does this,

00:49:04   but if the, on iOS you do the UI background task ID

00:49:08   and you say begin background task with identifier

00:49:11   and it basically gives you a little handle

00:49:13   and you do your task and then you tell it,

00:49:15   okay, I finished that, end this task.

00:49:17   And then if your app is about to be terminated

00:49:20   for whatever reason, and you have one of these open,

00:49:23   the system will give you a little bit of extra time

00:49:25   to go complete that.

00:49:27   So, somewhere I read some articles that was, you know,

00:49:31   that I can't find now, you know, which is probably good

00:49:33   to protect the not so innocent,

00:49:36   but somewhere I read some article that said,

00:49:38   in order to fix these crashes

00:49:40   about holding onto the lock too long,

00:49:41   just open up a background task

00:49:43   for every database query that you make.

00:49:46   'Cause the way SQLite works is,

00:49:49   every query it temporarily locks the database file,

00:49:53   does what it needs to do, and then unlocks it.

00:49:55   And this is required because that's how you have

00:49:58   different processes sharing a file,

00:50:00   or rather sharing a database through SQLite

00:50:03   without some kind of server managing the background,

00:50:04   like MySQL would have a server, but SQLite doesn't.

00:50:07   So anyway, it needs to do file locking to do this stuff.

00:50:10   So I got this tip from some random blog post that,

00:50:14   oh, wrap every database query in a background task assertion

00:50:19   and then you won't have this problem anymore.

00:50:21   That was technically true,

00:50:26   in the sense that-- - Oh, here we go.

00:50:28   - When I shipped the version that included this fix,

00:50:32   it was technically true that I was no longer

00:50:34   getting killed with that background code.

00:50:36   However, what was happening is I noticed

00:50:40   that my crash rate, rather than going down,

00:50:44   went way, way up.

00:50:47   It took me a while to figure out what was going on.

00:50:49   And during the time that I was trying to figure out

00:50:52   what was going on, I also noticed that as I would be

00:50:54   listening to Overcast, like in the car on long car trips,

00:50:57   sometimes my entire iPhone would crash.

00:51:01   And it would do what nerds might know as a re-spring,

00:51:04   which is the phone does not reboot,

00:51:06   but it looks like it's rebooting.

00:51:07   And it just comes back up faster.

00:51:09   And you see the little spinner, all your apps quit,

00:51:13   and then eventually you get back to your lock screen.

00:51:16   And the way you can tell that it wasn't a real reboot

00:51:18   is Touch ID is still on.

00:51:20   'Cause when you reboot for real,

00:51:22   you have to enter your passcode the first time.

00:51:24   But if it does a little spinner and back to the lock screen

00:51:26   and all your apps are gone and Touch ID works,

00:51:28   that was a springboard crash, not a full reboot.

00:51:31   And I noticed my phone was doing this more and more.

00:51:34   And it was very inconvenient at times such as

00:51:36   when I was driving and following directions in ways.

00:51:40   (laughs)

00:51:41   And my directions were just gone for a little while

00:51:43   while all the apps got killed

00:51:45   and I had to restart everything.

00:51:47   But anyway, and I started getting reports from people

00:51:49   saying my phone keeps crashing with Overcast,

00:51:51   but I can't figure out why.

00:51:54   And it took until one guy sent me a video

00:51:58   that he showed something amazingly useful to me.

00:52:01   He said, "Look, Overcast, if you pause it in the background

00:52:06   "and you bring up control center,

00:52:07   "so you can see that Overcast is still

00:52:09   "in the now playing thing in control center,

00:52:12   "after 10 minutes exactly,

00:52:14   or no, I think it was like three minutes.

00:52:16   Anyway, after some short duration of minutes,

00:52:19   it disappears, reliably, every time.

00:52:22   So that led me to finally catch the inner debugger

00:52:25   and to see that I was being killed

00:52:27   with a certain crash with a certain code.

00:52:29   And it still was not enough to actually figure it out

00:52:31   because the code I was getting killed with was,

00:52:34   you've exceeded some limit.

00:52:36   (laughs)

00:52:37   It's like, okay, well, helpful, maybe, thanks,

00:52:41   but I have no idea still.

00:52:44   And I tried a few things, trying to figure out

00:52:47   what limit am I exceeding here, what does this code mean?

00:52:50   Eventually I realized that this would also

00:52:53   sometimes correspond with one of those springboard crashes,

00:52:57   with the whole phone crash.

00:52:58   And so I thought, I wonder if this is related.

00:53:01   I direct messaged somebody who I know

00:53:05   on the springboard team.

00:53:06   I basically said, look, I'm at my wits end here,

00:53:08   I can't figure this out.

00:53:10   is there anything that would cause this crash code

00:53:14   to be sent to my app that might sometimes

00:53:17   crash Springboard?

00:53:18   Little while later, I hear, oh, there's actually

00:53:22   a bug report internal to Apple talking about

00:53:26   how Overcatch is causing this problem.

00:53:28   (laughing)

00:53:31   I was like, nice.

00:53:31   Oh?

00:53:32   - Do you think they ever would've told you?

00:53:35   They're just like--

00:53:36   - I don't, so there is actually,

00:53:38   There is a process that happens sometimes inside of Apple

00:53:43   where if you have an app that's causing lots of problems

00:53:46   for Apple, there is sometimes you will hear

00:53:51   from one of the developer evangelists about it.

00:53:54   This has happened to me maybe once or twice ever,

00:53:57   so this isn't a thing that happens often.

00:53:59   But this was happening in the lead up to WWDC.

00:54:03   This is only a couple weeks before WWDC, I think,

00:54:05   if I remember correctly.

00:54:06   And so the problem with that is that this is a time

00:54:09   when the entire, like all of Apple is basically

00:54:11   freaking out, rushing to finish the WBC betas.

00:54:16   'Cause that's like the first time the OS

00:54:19   is really gonna see any kind of wide attention.

00:54:21   It's gonna be installed on a bunch of developer devices

00:54:23   and a bunch of enthusiasts who say they're developers

00:54:25   who aren't and just use the developer betas anyway.

00:54:28   So there's a massive rush right before WBC

00:54:31   for anybody who works in anything near these new OSs

00:54:35   to just get it done, to get that first beta ready

00:54:38   for the public.

00:54:40   And so this was happening during that big crunch time,

00:54:43   so I imagine it slipped through the cracks.

00:54:45   You know, I'm sure it was on somebody's to-do list

00:54:47   to maybe see if they could reach out to me or something,

00:54:49   and they didn't.

00:54:50   Because you can imagine Apple is not so keen

00:54:52   on an app that can crash Springboard.

00:54:54   Like, that's not something that apps

00:54:56   are supposed to be able to do.

00:54:57   So basically, so there was this internal thing

00:55:02   that I just happened to, like, I happened to ask somebody

00:55:05   who started looking around who happened to find this.

00:55:07   And then basically the notes that Apple Engineering

00:55:12   had noticed about it was that I was taking a large number

00:55:17   of background assertions in the app

00:55:20   which was apparently causing Springboard,

00:55:23   Springboard has like a watchdog that goes along

00:55:25   and checks various limits every few minutes.

00:55:27   And that watchdog when it looked at how many

00:55:30   background assertions I had because I was doing one

00:55:33   for every database query.

00:55:35   (laughs)

00:55:36   So like, you know, a typical load of the app

00:55:39   is gonna make probably a few hundred database queries

00:55:41   over the course of navigating the first few screens.

00:55:43   So, you know, we're talking over the course

00:55:47   of typical usage, I might make a few hundred

00:55:49   to a few thousand database queries

00:55:51   over like a well-used session of the app.

00:55:54   The background task API was designed

00:55:57   back in the early days of iOS

00:56:00   for you to take out one background task assertion

00:56:04   if you're finishing uploading a file to a web service

00:56:08   or doing some kind of sync operation.

00:56:11   Like, okay, take a background assertion,

00:56:12   finish the sync operation, and then give it back.

00:56:14   And so apparently this was designed for something more

00:56:19   on the order of hundreds of these to happen

00:56:23   during a process, not thousands of these to happen

00:56:26   the way I was doing it with every database query.

00:56:30   And this was causing two problems.

00:56:31   Number one, it would cause this watchdog

00:56:34   that goes around to check to see

00:56:37   if you've exceeded your limits,

00:56:38   it would cause it to kill my app to say,

00:56:41   hey, you've exceeded your limits.

00:56:42   But apparently there was also a bug in that watchdog

00:56:46   in older versions of iOS before 11

00:56:48   that sometimes if you had such a ridiculous number

00:56:53   of them as I did, that watchdog would crash.

00:56:56   And because it's a part of the system,

00:56:58   If that crashes, basically all of Springboard comes down

00:57:01   and is brought back up.

00:57:03   This has been fixed in iOS 11,

00:57:05   but it was not fixed for at least the earlier parts of 10.

00:57:08   I don't know if the very last version of 10

00:57:10   might have fixed it, I don't know, honestly.

00:57:12   So basically, Overcast was not only exposing

00:57:15   its own limit crossing behavior,

00:57:17   and by the way, I don't know what that limit is.

00:57:19   Nobody will tell me what that limit is.

00:57:21   It doesn't really matter for my purposes.

00:57:23   All that matters is background tasks

00:57:25   for something to be used not in the thousands.

00:57:28   (laughs)

00:57:29   But basically, I was causing Springboard to crash.

00:57:33   And I greatly, greatly appreciate both the user

00:57:38   who sent me the video who showed that it would be terminated

00:57:41   after a certain number of minutes,

00:57:42   'cause that allowed me to get the crash code

00:57:44   that was reliably causing this problem.

00:57:46   And I also greatly appreciate anybody inside Apple

00:57:49   who helped me track this down.

00:57:52   And I really don't appreciate the blog post

00:57:54   I read back forever ago and I'm glad I can't find it now.

00:57:57   So I'm telling you all now, and you developers listening,

00:58:00   don't use background task IDs for frequently occurring

00:58:03   things like database queries.

00:58:05   That is too granular.

00:58:07   And the solution to the problem

00:58:09   ended up being something totally different.

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00:59:17   more visit betterment.com/ATP. That's betterment.com/ATP. Betterment, investing made better. So, going

00:59:30   back to the original problem. The problem was I was holding on to a shared file lock

00:59:37   in the shared app container because the database file, so quick, very quick overview, I apologize

00:59:43   to non-programmers, this is probably very boring. I've been trying to not talk about

00:59:46   for weeks and John's finally making me this week.

00:59:48   But anyway, so--

00:59:49   - And not just him.

00:59:50   - Okay, you too.

00:59:52   I voted.

00:59:53   So anyway, long explanation, slightly less long again.

00:59:57   iOS apps are totally isolated from each other.

01:00:00   They, you know, for security reasons,

01:00:01   for control reasons, for user-friendliness,

01:00:03   there's lots of good reasons.

01:00:04   iOS apps, if your app wants to read or write a file

01:00:09   for its own data purposes,

01:00:11   it writes it in a special sandbox folder

01:00:12   that it can't read or write anything outside of that

01:00:15   and no other apps can read its files.

01:00:18   And this is extremely enforced such that

01:00:21   even if you have multiple apps from the same developer,

01:00:24   they are isolated from each other,

01:00:26   even if you have extensions of your app,

01:00:29   because an extension is technically running

01:00:30   as a separate process on the system,

01:00:33   the extension can't read and write the same data

01:00:35   as its parent app even.

01:00:37   Like that's how walled off everything is in iOS

01:00:39   for various good security reasons.

01:00:42   Which by the way, I love and I kinda wish

01:00:44   that the Mac had more of that.

01:00:46   Anyway, Apple created a system called

01:00:48   Shared App Group Containers to try to solve the problem of,

01:00:52   first of all, if you have multiple apps

01:00:55   from the same developer, can they share any information?

01:00:57   And then second of all, if you just have an app

01:00:59   with an extension, it's pretty hard to make

01:01:02   a useful extension that can't read or write

01:01:05   any of its parent app's data.

01:01:07   The shared app container is basically a,

01:01:10   it's literally what it sounds like.

01:01:10   It's a shared container that apps and extensions

01:01:14   can all read and write from, you know,

01:01:16   separately, you know, separately from their main data space

01:01:19   so they can share data.

01:01:21   I had the bright idea back when the,

01:01:23   when watchOS first came out,

01:01:25   and I had to make my watch extension,

01:01:26   which was Overcast's first extension,

01:01:28   what if I just move the database file

01:01:31   into the shared app container,

01:01:32   and then the extension can read and write

01:01:34   the same database as the app?

01:01:35   And I can copy the same model files over

01:01:37   and have the extension have a lot of code sharing

01:01:40   with the main app.

01:01:41   The thing with iOS is that processes can be randomly

01:01:45   suspended and terminated without their consent or whatever

01:01:51   as the system deems them no longer necessary

01:01:53   if the user quits, see whatever else.

01:01:55   And this is especially enforced on extensions.

01:01:58   If you open up, say, a widget,

01:02:00   like the today, it used to be called today widget now,

01:02:03   and I think they're just called widgets now, right?

01:02:05   - I don't even remember.

01:02:06   - Whatever they're called in this iOS release.

01:02:09   So widgets have very, very low limits

01:02:11   because you might have a screen

01:02:13   that has like five of them on it.

01:02:14   Like if you open up your whatever notification center

01:02:16   is called now and you have the part of the notification center

01:02:18   that used to be called today's screen,

01:02:19   who knows what that's called now.

01:02:21   Anyway, and so you have all these things

01:02:22   that might be called widgets on that screen.

01:02:25   (laughs)

01:02:26   And so each one of those is running a separate process

01:02:29   and so they have very, very aggressive limits on those.

01:02:32   In the context of a widget

01:02:34   or actually any extension technically,

01:02:36   there is no such thing as a background task assertion

01:02:39   in the typical sense where you say,

01:02:40   begin background task and I'll tell you when I'm done.

01:02:43   They have this other thing, this NSProcessInfo API

01:02:45   that is horrendous and really hard to use.

01:02:48   But basically, they very aggressively terminate

01:02:52   the processes of those extensions

01:02:54   whenever you're done with them.

01:02:56   So the problem is if you have a shared app group container

01:03:00   and you have the ability for one of these processes

01:03:03   to take a lock on a file in that.

01:03:06   You have a problem then, what do you do

01:03:09   if say the widget has a lock on the database file,

01:03:12   which is the single copy that's shared

01:03:14   between the parent app and everything else.

01:03:16   If the widget takes a lock on that file

01:03:18   and then gets terminated before the lock is released,

01:03:21   what should happen?

01:03:22   Should the lock not be released?

01:03:25   Then the app can't run because it's deadlocked.

01:03:27   It's waiting for that lock to be released

01:03:28   from the extension that's not running right now.

01:03:31   Or should you just kind of force the lock to be released?

01:03:34   Well then you have the risk of data corruption

01:03:36   because then if the widget then relaunches,

01:03:39   the widget thinks the file has been locked

01:03:41   that whole time in the meantime, but it actually hasn't,

01:03:44   so the lock is kind of meaningless

01:03:45   and so you either have lots of bugs

01:03:48   or you have data corruption or whatever else.

01:03:50   So Apple, realizing this would be a problem,

01:03:53   built in this wonderful system of this springboard,

01:03:57   the special springboard crasher that you will get a log

01:04:00   if your app is terminated while it's holding a lock

01:04:04   in the shared container, you get these crazy crash logs

01:04:07   that were the kind I was getting to begin with.

01:04:09   This was the problem I was trying to solve at the beginning

01:04:11   and the reason I did this whole background task thing

01:04:13   that was horrendous.

01:04:14   Finally, the end of the story.

01:04:17   I had that problem for that reason

01:04:19   and I tried to solve it with this background task

01:04:22   on every database query thing, which was a terrible idea

01:04:25   that causes other springboard crashes,

01:04:26   way, way, way worse crash,

01:04:29   And so instead, I decided, you know what?

01:04:32   I'm just not gonna have the database

01:04:33   in the shared container anymore.

01:04:35   I just moved it back into the ask private storage.

01:04:38   And instead of the widget communicating with,

01:04:42   and the watch engine, instead of them communicating

01:04:44   with the parent app by reading

01:04:46   and writing the database directly,

01:04:48   now they just have their own little mini APIs

01:04:50   to the parent app where they are communicating

01:04:52   via dictionaries that are just being written

01:04:55   to little files in the shared container

01:04:57   that are not locked or anything like that.

01:04:59   So I took this elegant but complex solution

01:05:02   of having the database be shared

01:05:04   and made a much, much, much simpler lower tech solution

01:05:07   of just passing around serialized dictionaries

01:05:09   as unlocked files basically.

01:05:12   And now all these problems are gone, it is totally solved.

01:05:16   My crash rate has dropped to barely anything,

01:05:19   relatively speaking, and it is finally done.

01:05:22   And my users were very patient during this time

01:05:24   and I greatly appreciate that,

01:05:25   along with the guy who reported the initial bug

01:05:28   and the Apple people who helped me find it.

01:05:30   So that is the story.

01:05:31   I think this was now,

01:05:33   because this was before the WBC barrier

01:05:37   in the year of Apple scheduling,

01:05:38   I have very little recollection of most of these details,

01:05:41   so I apologize if I got anything wrong.

01:05:43   I apologize for the long-winded nature of this,

01:05:44   but Casey and John made me do it.

01:05:46   - So I have a couple of questions about this.

01:05:49   - Yeah.

01:05:49   - How many database queries were you making?

01:05:53   I never really measured what exactly the threshold

01:05:57   of being a problem was, but I think it's in the order of,

01:06:02   it's in the magnitude of hundreds over a short time

01:06:07   and then maybe approaching thousands

01:06:11   if you use the app for a while.

01:06:13   And it's doing a lot of, 'cause the app syncs back

01:06:15   to the server every few minutes.

01:06:18   As you're listening, every few seconds,

01:06:21   it's writing your progress back to the database.

01:06:23   That way, in case it crashes or your phone crashed

01:06:25   or whatever else, you don't lose too much progress.

01:06:27   So every few seconds, I'm running to disk at least.

01:06:29   And then when you're doing a sync,

01:06:31   there's a lot more queries that go on there.

01:06:33   And if you browse a list, it's loading all that data

01:06:36   as you page through that list.

01:06:37   As you scroll, it's loading all those table cells

01:06:39   for all the episodes, it's loading all that stuff.

01:06:41   So I do a good amount of queries.

01:06:43   - That was my question.

01:06:44   So when you're scrolling through a list,

01:06:45   it's like loading them on the fly at that point

01:06:48   for the data source of whatever it's called,

01:06:49   the data provider for the table view or whatever?

01:06:52   - Yep.

01:06:53   It's not like pulling the whole list and keeping it in memory and then just doling it out to

01:06:58   the GUI data source provider thingy.

01:07:01   You don't just do one big giant query up front to get the whole playlist and then just keep

01:07:05   it in memory and chuck it out as the table cells ask for it.

01:07:08   Well, I do.

01:07:10   And I have some caching built into the database layer as well.

01:07:14   So for instance, I do load the whole list of episodes for a playlist view.

01:07:19   but then as you scroll, I need to know the artwork.

01:07:23   And that comes from the podcast record,

01:07:26   not the episode record.

01:07:27   That's one level up.

01:07:28   And so I have podcasts cached,

01:07:30   I have that in a nice instance cache and everything,

01:07:35   but keep in mind a lot of this stuff falls over

01:07:38   if people have a lot of podcasts.

01:07:40   Basically, if it exceeds what my app reasonably expects

01:07:43   to cache or what will reasonably fit in memory to cache,

01:07:47   there's a lot more queries happening as this stuff is paged in. Also, if things change,

01:07:53   for instance, if I get a change value from the server, it invalidates a lot of these

01:07:59   values that are cached, so I have to then reload those on their next request. If the

01:08:04   list of playable content changes, which basically is like if a new episode comes in or if an

01:08:12   an episode gets deleted, or if some criteria of an episode

01:08:16   changes whether it is a member of a playlist or not,

01:08:19   then that is called, in my app I call that

01:08:22   the playable content change, which is basically

01:08:25   some part of what belongs in the list of episodes somewhere

01:08:29   is no longer valid, and when that happens,

01:08:32   lots of things get invalidated.

01:08:34   And so there's a lot going on.

01:08:35   I mean, a podcast app is a lot more complex

01:08:39   than most people would assume.

01:08:41   It's certainly more complex than I assumed when I started writing one, as I found out.

01:08:47   And they're only getting more complex over time as the market matures and as the scope

01:08:52   of these things, the scope of what people expect, expands.

01:08:55   It'll be interesting to see, you know, like a, I guess you'd probably get it in just

01:09:01   looking at the console log or using instruments or something like the flow of database queries.

01:09:06   Because I, you know, using Overcast, I would think, well, you know, this does some database

01:09:09   queries, but surely I would never guess the size of the number of database queries like over the

01:09:14   course of a 10-minute period that it would literally do thousands, like especially just

01:09:18   during normal use, even accounting for the "hey I'm syncing your play position every few seconds" so

01:09:22   I found that pretty surprising in this whole thing. And also I would say that whatever that

01:09:26   blog post was that you found that was like "just do everything as a background task"

01:09:31   I can't really blame the blog post because any solution like that is like the underlying

01:09:36   assumption is you're not doing hundreds or thousands of database queries. Like you've

01:09:40   got a couple database queries and you do them and you just put them in the background you'll be fine

01:09:44   and you would have been fine if the number was like 20. You know, like a couple a minute, like

01:09:49   five, five database queries every minute. But if it's hundreds or thousands then obviously that's

01:09:54   just not going to work. My question, another question about your not having the database in

01:09:58   the shared container and just having the thing right, pls to the shared container, does that mean

01:10:02   that the main Overcast app has to be running

01:10:06   to notice those things appearing in the shared container

01:10:08   and take action on them because it owns the database now?

01:10:11   Like, how does that work?

01:10:13   - It would mean that, but for a variety of reasons,

01:10:16   it either always is running or becomes running.

01:10:19   So let me go through.

01:10:21   Basically, there's only two extensions

01:10:23   that matter for this purpose.

01:10:25   One of them is the widget, the other one is the watch app.

01:10:28   When watchOS, watchkit one, back for watchOS one,

01:10:33   the extension for the watch was actually a process

01:10:37   running on the phone.

01:10:39   And so it had access to the shared data container

01:10:41   on the phone.

01:10:42   So it was actually surprisingly easy to make watchkit one

01:10:45   apps because you could just share the database,

01:10:48   share all the model files and everything,

01:10:50   and then just have the watchkit read and write

01:10:51   the database directly.

01:10:52   And it kind of took care of that for you.

01:10:54   WatchKit 2 and forward, so watchOS 2 and 3 and also now 4,

01:10:59   moved the extension to run on the watch itself

01:11:03   instead of on the phone.

01:11:04   Because running it on the phone made the app really slow

01:11:07   basically because it had to send all the interface stuff

01:11:08   over Bluetooth and it sucked.

01:11:10   That's one of the reasons why watchOS 1 was so bad for apps

01:11:13   and why the newer watchOS has since then

01:11:15   have been so much better.

01:11:17   Anyway, so when the extension execution moved to the watch,

01:11:23   That meant it could no longer read and write

01:11:24   the container anymore, 'cause the container's on the phone.

01:11:26   So it had its own container on the watch now,

01:11:29   but anyway, it couldn't read and write the database.

01:11:31   So that eliminated the whole reason

01:11:33   I had it there in the first place.

01:11:35   The only reason this came up is that

01:11:36   when I made Overcast 3.0, I made a widget.

01:11:38   And the widget was like the first time

01:11:41   I was really using, or really taking advantage

01:11:43   of the fact that the database was somewhere shared

01:11:45   to begin with.

01:11:46   The watch extension already needed to have

01:11:50   ways to communicate with the app,

01:11:52   to wake it up if need be and the watch connectivity

01:11:56   framework allows for all that.

01:11:57   There's different commands and stuff.

01:11:59   There are ways for the, it basically is already

01:12:02   communicating the way that I said I moved everything to.

01:12:05   It was really only the widget that was causing the problems

01:12:09   because I'd already made this move with the watch app.

01:12:11   Anyway, so the widget, either the phone app

01:12:15   is already running, in which case it notices anyway,

01:12:17   or basically I have a mechanism in the widget,

01:12:21   'cause the widget has a play button,

01:12:22   and if you tap into the artwork in it,

01:12:24   it'll play that one also.

01:12:26   So the widget needs to have some way to wake up the app.

01:12:29   If it was just one way data transfer,

01:12:31   if the widget was just showing status from the app,

01:12:34   like you might have,

01:12:35   if you made a weather app, for instance,

01:12:37   there'd be no reason for the widget

01:12:40   to communicate back to the parent app

01:12:41   and something like that.

01:12:43   You might just have the widget launch the app,

01:12:45   but you can do that already.

01:12:47   In my app, I had to have some way for the widget

01:12:49   to communicate back to the app,

01:12:51   and the app might not be running.

01:12:53   So what I did for that was the widget basically

01:12:57   sends a command through one of these serialized playlets.

01:13:01   It puts a file in the shared app container that says,

01:13:03   "Hey, do this command."

01:13:05   And if it doesn't get a response within some very short time,

01:13:08   I think it's like a half a second or something,

01:13:10   then I launch a URL scheme that launches the app

01:13:13   in the foreground, and you'll notice that if you use it.

01:13:15   If basically the app was already running,

01:13:17   if you hit that play button in the widget,

01:13:20   it'll start again in the background

01:13:21   'cause the app was still running.

01:13:23   So basically, this is all a giant pile of hacks.

01:13:26   (laughs)

01:13:28   The short version is the widget tries to send the app

01:13:31   a command and if it doesn't get a response,

01:13:32   it knows it isn't running so it launches it

01:13:34   in the foreground.

01:13:35   - My final question, because every overcast segment

01:13:39   would not be completed without some kind of bug report

01:13:41   slash feature request is--

01:13:43   - Oh my word.

01:13:43   - I'm still--

01:13:44   - This better not be about offline watch playback.

01:13:46   I swear I'm gonna set that feature on fire.

01:13:48   - No, it is not.

01:13:49   I know about your woes with that and I did try it myself and I had my own woes because

01:13:53   the volume is too low and I couldn't hear anything but you know about that, right?

01:13:55   It's getting worse.

01:13:56   It's getting so much worse.

01:13:58   My question is about the mysterious world of the internal state of something on my phone

01:14:05   that decides what it is that will start playing when my phone connects to Bluetooth on my

01:14:10   car.

01:14:11   So very often I will enter my car and I just did it today actually.

01:14:17   Before I entered the car, I unlocked my phone and looked and either I used the multitasking

01:14:24   switcher to go to it or I tapped the overcast icon or it was already in it, but the point

01:14:27   is overcast was the frontmost application.

01:14:30   I had previously been listening to a podcast.

01:14:32   I was not listening now.

01:14:33   I think I double tapped my AirPods and put them away or whatever.

01:14:36   But overcast is the frontmost app.

01:14:38   So I hit the sleep button, I go into my car, it connects to Bluetooth, and instead of overcast

01:14:42   continuing to play the thing I was just listening to, music starts to play.

01:14:46   I have no idea how iOS determines what it should start playing when I get into my car

01:14:54   and it connects to Bluetooth, but maybe 15% of the time it starts playing music instead

01:15:01   of playing...

01:15:02   I mean, sometimes Overcast is long gone.

01:15:04   It kind of makes sense.

01:15:05   Like, the last time I listened to Overcast was last night, and I've since used Twitter

01:15:08   and browsed the web and done all sorts of stuff.

01:15:10   Surely Overcast is not running anymore because I've just thrashed through the memory.

01:15:14   So when I get into my car, maybe it's going to be like, "Oh, I should start playing a

01:15:18   random playlist," right?

01:15:19   But when Overcast is the front-most app and I was just listening to it and it starts playing

01:15:22   music, it makes me realize I have no idea what the hell's going on inside there.

01:15:25   I'm assuming you have very little control over this, as with so many things that seem

01:15:29   like OS-level things, but can you shed some light on what the hell's going on there?

01:15:33   Sure.

01:15:34   I mean, I can tell you right now I have zero control over it, but I will tell you roughly

01:15:36   what I know is happening.

01:15:39   And a lot of this is conjecture.

01:15:40   A lot of this is just figuring it out

01:15:43   over time with experience, and some of this,

01:15:46   some, very little of this has been documented before,

01:15:49   but not most of it.

01:15:50   So the short version is it tries to do whatever you did last

01:15:55   but there are some exceptions to when this will happen.

01:15:58   So first of all, a lot of times, especially recently

01:16:02   with the rise of video clips on Twitter and Facebook,

01:16:06   what you did last might not be what you think you did last

01:16:10   or you might have forgotten, or it might have been something.

01:16:11   So for example, if you are, you know,

01:16:14   if Overcast is paused and you're looking at Twitter

01:16:17   and you view some kind of embedded video clip,

01:16:21   Twitter has just become the most recently audio playing app.

01:16:24   And iOS keeps track of whatever the most recently

01:16:26   audio playing app was for this purpose.

01:16:29   But lots of things can take it.

01:16:31   So anything that plays video, anything that plays audio,

01:16:34   if you view a video in Safari, for instance,

01:16:39   that becomes then the latest,

01:16:41   the last app that played audio.

01:16:43   So it could be lots of different things

01:16:45   that you don't even realize are taking it over,

01:16:46   but if you play that quick video and then it stops,

01:16:51   it doesn't give the last audio app status

01:16:54   back to what it had before.

01:16:56   It just stays on whatever that was.

01:16:59   So much of the time in practice, that's the problem,

01:17:02   is you actually did play audio through something else

01:17:05   and either subconsciously assumed

01:17:08   that it would go back to Overcast after that, or that you just forgot or didn't realize

01:17:13   that that's happening.

01:17:14   So that makes sense, but that's never the case with me because I've never heard it

01:17:18   do a tweet.

01:17:19   And I think I've done what you've described, like played a video on Twitter, played a video

01:17:22   on YouTube, but I've never heard it resume a YouTube video, resume a tweet video, resume

01:17:26   anything.

01:17:27   It always starts playing seemingly random playlists in my music collection.

01:17:31   And I can tell you, I'm not listening to music on my iPhone, like ever.

01:17:35   Like because I have a dedicated iPod connected with a USB cable in my car

01:17:39   Like I don't even listen to my phone music on my phone in my car. I have a separate iPod for that, right?

01:17:44   And it's amazing to me and I know it's doing it was taking a really long time. It's amazing to me

01:17:49   I don't I don't know how it picks the playlist cuz it's not even like the playlist that I was last like if I go into

01:17:55   music app intentionally and play a song and then forget about it that like it just I

01:17:58   Don't know what it's doing

01:18:00   Is it is it?

01:18:01   honoring my shuffle, but anyway, it always plays music

01:18:03   and it takes forever for it to start playing music

01:18:05   because I have never even launched the music app.

01:18:08   - Right, so there's other things at play here.

01:18:10   So first of all, even if it remembers properly

01:18:14   the last app you used was Overcast,

01:18:17   if Overcast has crashed in the background, it won't resume.

01:18:20   But again, I try to minimize background crashes.

01:18:25   There are occasional ones that still happen

01:18:27   that I'm still trying to track down,

01:18:28   but they're very, very, they're relatively rare

01:18:30   compared to other things, so that probably is not

01:18:33   doing what you're doing now, but I can't tell you

01:18:34   for sure it isn't.

01:18:35   So other things that are at play here,

01:18:39   if it tries to resume something like in a car

01:18:44   setting like that, and the last used audio app

01:18:47   does not respond in a certain amount of time,

01:18:50   I think iOS defaults to music.

01:18:54   There's also, this has been a problem for cars

01:18:58   for a while that had iPod support.

01:19:01   There are these iPod control protocols

01:19:03   that work over with USB and Bluetooth, I think.

01:19:07   And if a car has iPod support, what will sometimes happen

01:19:11   is the car will basically invoke that

01:19:14   instead of the generic Bluetooth play thing.

01:19:18   And iOS devices, when prompted for music support,

01:19:21   try to do the right thing.

01:19:22   They try to show their music library to the car.

01:19:24   And you said that the music's kind of random.

01:19:26   So it used to be, whenever it would ask for the iPod library music stuff, it used to be

01:19:31   that most of them would default to playing the first alphabetical song title.

01:19:36   So whatever song you had that began with A in your library, it would just play that every

01:19:41   time.

01:19:42   My car does that with the USB connected iPod touch.

01:19:45   It always goes with the A songs.

01:19:46   Here's the thing.

01:19:47   It still takes me two songs to figure out what it's doing.

01:19:50   I don't know why I haven't identified the first song with the second song.

01:19:54   Sometimes I'm up to the third song because I kind of like the first two songs.

01:19:56   It's like, "Oh, this is good."

01:19:57   Oh, and I do use random play.

01:19:59   It's like, "Oh, conceivably, I could have picked the song 'Rainbow' by the third song."

01:20:02   I'm like, "Wait a second.

01:20:03   These all begin with A." And like, how many years am I going to do that?

01:20:06   I'm dumb.

01:20:08   And just as a note, okay, as this episode has been somewhat about, I'm not perfect.

01:20:13   I make a lot of mistakes.

01:20:15   But as a note to people who implement these kind of audio systems, nobody ever wants to

01:20:20   play songs alphabetically by their titles.

01:20:22   that is never a thing anybody ever wants,

01:20:24   it is never the right idea,

01:20:26   that just never ever ever do that.

01:20:28   And there are so many like cars and things that do that,

01:20:31   sometimes it's the only option in certain like views

01:20:33   or certain parts of the UI,

01:20:35   nobody wants alphabetical song playback, ever.

01:20:39   Just don't do that.

01:20:40   Anyway, it seems like in recent times,

01:20:42   Apple has figured out, okay, nobody wants to hear

01:20:45   All In by Stroke Nine every single morning

01:20:47   when they get in their car,

01:20:48   let's instead play something from Apple Music

01:20:51   they might like.

01:20:52   So if you subscribe to Apple Music, you often get that,

01:20:55   where your car will suddenly start playing

01:20:56   just some kind of radio station or some playlist

01:21:00   off of your phone if you can't figure out what else to do

01:21:02   and the car is requesting music.

01:21:04   So that's a thing too, and that's been, I think,

01:21:06   in the last two iOS versions, I think since iOS 10 at least.

01:21:10   So there's lots of things that your car

01:21:14   and your phone can negotiate and do.

01:21:17   What you quickly realize as you dive into this stuff

01:21:19   is that this is just an incredibly complex system.

01:21:21   And most of it's complex for a reason.

01:21:23   Like, you know, iOS's whole concept of the last used

01:21:27   music playing or audio playing app,

01:21:29   that is complex in itself because of all the things

01:21:30   I mentioned like videos and Twitter and Facebook

01:21:33   and stuff like that, you know, embedded stuff in Safari,

01:21:36   YouTube videos, like it's so complex to even just try

01:21:39   to keep track in a reasonable way of like,

01:21:41   what was the last app that played media?

01:21:44   And so if the user says play, what should I play?

01:21:48   So I don't have a good answer for you,

01:21:50   except it might be one of those things,

01:21:53   or it might be something else.

01:21:55   (laughing)

01:21:56   - Nice. - I mean, like I said,

01:21:58   almost, most of the time it works, 85% of the time,

01:22:00   90% of the time, it does what I expect it to do,

01:22:02   but it's the times that it doesn't,

01:22:04   like, well, what was your problem this time?

01:22:06   What you said about it trying to get it to play,

01:22:09   but like it giving up after a short period of time

01:22:11   and then going to music rings true for me,

01:22:13   because it always seems to take longer.

01:22:15   I can always tell when, uh-oh,

01:22:16   I'm not gonna hear my podcast,

01:22:17   I'm gonna hear music because everything on my car takes a long time in terms of Bluetooth and booting up and everything

01:22:22   You know and so there this is are counted in seconds. I can say oh, I know it's gonna know what's gonna happen next

01:22:28   It's gonna play music and it does but almost all the time at work. So

01:22:31   Anyway, another thing. I mean, I guess that can be solved by

01:22:34   Honda updating their in-car infotainment system which by the way, they did the new accords have an all-new android-based

01:22:42   presumably

01:22:44   non-disgusting

01:22:46   You know like that. What do I have now is like pre Android iOS like the old world of

01:22:52   car

01:22:54   infotainment systems the bad old world and the new one is just you know

01:22:57   The the modern era so I'm hoping it's better, and I'm hoping they put faster CPUs

01:23:02   And I'm hoping it will take less time to connect to Bluetooth so the very least I can get the wrong thing playing faster

01:23:08   In the meantime I will just you know I mean it's pretty pretty high success rate all things considered

01:23:14   But yeah, it does sound complicated.

01:23:16   It almost makes me wish that there was a way that I could say, "Look, all I ever wanted

01:23:19   to happen, ever, ever, ever when I enter the car is for you to start playing Overcast."

01:23:23   And that's it.

01:23:24   But that doesn't seem like it's in the cards.

01:23:27   So before you get a ton of email, hopefully, you were able to backchannel kind of directly

01:23:35   to Apple and say, "Hey, what's going on here?"

01:23:38   What do you think would have been your course of action if that wasn't available to you?

01:23:43   Like aren't there--

01:23:44   - DTS ticket would be the next thing.

01:23:46   - That's exactly what I thought.

01:23:47   So if you're not Marco Arment,

01:23:50   and you know, yeah, that's fine for Marco,

01:23:51   but you would have opened a DTS ticket,

01:23:53   and hypothetically, that would have been escalated

01:23:56   to an engineer who could have helped you, hopefully maybe.

01:23:59   - Yeah, and the way these works,

01:24:00   and forgive me for not having the details right,

01:24:03   'cause I've actually never filed one,

01:24:04   but basically every paid Apple developer membership

01:24:08   includes, I believe, two developer technical support,

01:24:11   with DTS, incidents per year.

01:24:14   And you basically, you say you wanna use one,

01:24:18   and you can actually get code level support.

01:24:21   You can actually say, okay look, here's this code,

01:24:24   it is not working here, I can't figure this out,

01:24:26   can you help?

01:24:27   And Apple engineers will actually help you

01:24:31   with that problem.

01:24:31   And so it's a pretty involved process,

01:24:33   that's why they're limited.

01:24:35   So it's two per year, and I think there's some provision

01:24:39   where if what you found is actually an Apple bug,

01:24:41   then I think they don't charge you your ticket for that year.

01:24:45   They don't accumulate, so I would have a lot if they did,

01:24:49   but they don't.

01:24:51   But yeah, so there actually is this,

01:24:54   there is a way to do this,

01:24:55   and while I have no experience with it myself,

01:24:57   I've heard from people who have used them

01:24:59   that they're incredibly helpful,

01:25:01   and so this is something

01:25:02   that all developers have access to, so that's pretty cool.

01:25:05   - That's awesome.

01:25:07   - All right, we good?

01:25:09   - I mean, I could tell some more long,

01:25:10   boring stories if you want.

01:25:12   - Well, we gotta figure out an after show

01:25:13   'cause I have something brief,

01:25:14   but I don't know if it's gonna be worth it.

01:25:16   - Oh, I know what we should do.

01:25:17   All right, thanks to our three sponsors this week,

01:25:19   Betterment, Eero, and Fracture,

01:25:21   and we will see you next week.

01:25:23   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

01:25:28   ♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

01:25:30   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:25:32   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:25:33   ♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪

01:25:35   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:25:36   John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

01:25:41   'Cause it was accidental (it was accidental)

01:25:44   It was accidental (accidental)

01:25:47   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

01:25:52   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them

01:25:56   @c-a-s-e-y-l-i-s-s

01:26:00   So that's Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:26:05   ♪ Anti-Marco Armin, S-I-R-A-C ♪

01:26:10   ♪ USA, Syracuse, it's accidental ♪

01:26:14   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:26:16   ♪ They didn't mean to ♪

01:26:18   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:26:19   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:26:21   ♪ Tech podcast ♪

01:26:23   ♪ So long ♪

01:26:25   - So John, tell us about your Mongoose Californian.

01:26:29   (John laughing)

01:26:31   You're trying to really clear up the things in there.

01:26:33   - Yeah, we have to set the stage.

01:26:34   We have to set the stage.

01:26:35   So forever and a day ago, at the very top of our show notes has some sections, including

01:26:44   follow-up, and then the topics, right?

01:26:46   So the very, very, very top, like the fifth line down, sitting in this document for maybe

01:26:54   a year now, is my mongoose Californian, parenthesis, 1984, parenthesis, and two links.

01:27:01   And this has been sitting there staring us in the face at the top of this document for

01:27:06   probably a year, maybe two.

01:27:08   Three years.

01:27:09   Three years.

01:27:10   It's been three years.

01:27:11   And now is the time that we are going to finally clear this out.

01:27:15   Good call, Marco.

01:27:16   The thing that we really should be clearing out is like early on, someone, probably Casey,

01:27:20   was trying to put sections in the notes.

01:27:22   We didn't have names for things.

01:27:24   It's, you know, the naming problem with programming again.

01:27:26   Like it hadn't actually come up with, you know, precise names for things.

01:27:31   So there's all sorts of like pre post show, public post show, after show, pre show.

01:27:36   Like we didn't have the names for all the different times that we can talk to each other.

01:27:40   The times when we're live, when we're not live, blah, blah, blah.

01:27:43   So this section got anchored up here with public post show, which now we call the after

01:27:48   show and it's lower in the document.

01:27:50   And so that's how old this was.

01:27:53   So I will be able to delete this entire section when we do this.

01:27:55   The problem with this topic is it was a thing I was angry about.

01:27:59   I was angry about it in 2014, unfortunately.

01:28:02   It's hard for me to muster that anger again.

01:28:04   Oh, oh, really?

01:28:07   Is that so, Jon?

01:28:08   Well, I demand that you do it, because you made me dig up my crash story.

01:28:12   You weren't angry about it.

01:28:13   That was a detective story.

01:28:16   The anger should have subsided.

01:28:18   You defeated the beast.

01:28:19   Now you can look back on it, and it's more like a detective story.

01:28:23   There was this mystery, and I solved it, and it was weird, and it's like a programming

01:28:27   problem.

01:28:28   had you do it in the middle of it like your app is currently out there and crashing and

01:28:32   you still can't figure out what it is and then you talked about it, that would be a

01:28:34   different story.

01:28:35   But anyway, I'll see what I can do to bring myself back to 2014.

01:28:39   This is precipitated by me being on a podcast that we'll link in the show notes, "Storming

01:28:44   Mortal" where I talked about a whole bunch of things including, in the words of a show

01:28:50   that God help me Casey must have seen and please Marco know that it at least exists,

01:28:56   The best Christmas present I ever received and ever would receive.

01:29:00   My 1984 Mongoose, California BMX bike.

01:29:03   Casey, do you know what I was referencing?

01:29:06   Nope.

01:29:07   Not a bit.

01:29:08   Come on, guys.

01:29:09   Come on.

01:29:10   What was it?

01:29:11   Did I get it wrong?

01:29:12   The best Christmas present I ever received and ever would receive?

01:29:17   I'm close.

01:29:18   I'm really close.

01:29:19   You're not close enough for us.

01:29:22   A Christmas story.

01:29:23   They only play it 24 hours a day.

01:29:24   I've only seen it like once or twice.

01:29:26   Oh, what do you mean you've only seen it once or twice?

01:29:29   I think I've seen it all the way through.

01:29:30   They play it literally 24 hours.

01:29:32   I know, I never pay attention.

01:29:34   Yeah, exactly.

01:29:34   It's one of those things that it's always on and so you never pay attention.

01:29:38   If you had said you'll shoot your eye out with that thing, I would have known immediately.

01:29:41   Well, at least there is that.

01:29:42   Anyway, that movie, by the way, is a really, really, really good movie.

01:29:46   Ignore the fact that it's played 24 hours.

01:29:48   They used to not play it 24 hours.

01:29:49   It is a really good movie.

01:29:51   the kid in the movie gets uh... begun for christmas and he says that the

01:29:55   narrator the older version of says the best christmas present he ever see you

01:29:58   never received

01:29:59   that's my that's my uh... bike for variety of reasons

01:30:02   uh... and the reason the reference for a poster recognize there was not the bike

01:30:06   itself just

01:30:07   the best present that you know you know you're at the last half a very

01:30:10   very near the end of the movies at the second or third to last line in the

01:30:14   movies be sent chance

01:30:15   no it's pretty significant line expressing the sentiment uh... anyway i

01:30:19   I should get that quote exactly right so I can repeat it with more confidence in the

01:30:24   future.

01:30:25   Anyway, on this podcast we talked about a whole bunch of things I also talked about

01:30:27   at BMX and around this time I was buying bicycles for my kids of various sizes, like non-training

01:30:35   wheel bikes, like their first real bikes.

01:30:37   And I found that experience incredibly frustrating.

01:30:40   So I grew up in a bike culture, which is like 70s, 80s, suburban New York metro area.

01:30:49   It was a bike culture.

01:30:51   Kids were on bicycles.

01:30:52   Can I tell people that you're a biker?

01:30:54   Different, different thing, different context.

01:30:56   Although we did put playing cards in our spokes with a clothespin so your bike sounded like

01:31:00   motorcycles.

01:31:01   Oh yeah, that really confused anybody ever.

01:31:04   That's right, it was awesome.

01:31:06   So kids were on bikes all the time.

01:31:07   Like if you watch a Steven Spielberg movie

01:31:09   showing kids in the 70s racing

01:31:10   and riding around on bicycles,

01:31:11   if you watch Stranger Things

01:31:12   and kids are riding around on bicycles,

01:31:13   that was a real thing.

01:31:14   That's all we did.

01:31:15   We'd come home from school, we'd get on a bike,

01:31:16   so we'd go all over the place.

01:31:18   Nobody had helmets.

01:31:19   We would fashion jumps out of garbage.

01:31:21   We found in other people's trash on trash day

01:31:23   in the middle of the street.

01:31:25   It's all very dangerous and scary,

01:31:27   and we've never let our kids do it today,

01:31:29   but that's what we did.

01:31:30   And because we were in a bike culture

01:31:32   and bikes were so important,

01:31:34   there's a hierarchy of what kind of bike you had

01:31:36   and all the fancy rich kids had Mongoose or Redline,

01:31:40   which were expensive bikes, and I wanted a Mongoose.

01:31:43   I think I thought Redlines were more expensive.

01:31:45   I don't even think they were, but that's what I thought.

01:31:48   And I wanted one for Christmas,

01:31:49   and I thought there's no way I'm gonna get one

01:31:50   'cause they're really expensive, and they were,

01:31:52   and my parents totally surprised me with it.

01:31:54   Like the present that you don't think

01:31:55   you're ever gonna get.

01:31:56   It's not even I was like hopeful for it, looking for it.

01:31:58   It was just, it wasn't even, didn't even enter my mind.

01:32:00   It's like being a kid and saying,

01:32:01   "I want a Lamborghini Countach," and you're like,

01:32:03   "Yeah, but like whatever, I'm not gonna get one."

01:32:04   And then you wake up on Christmas morning,

01:32:05   it's in your garage and it's yours, right?

01:32:07   It was like that, basically.

01:32:09   And I rode the hell out of that bicycle.

01:32:12   I rode it everywhere, jumped it off jumps

01:32:14   and dirt bikes and trails, rode up and down highways.

01:32:17   This bike has no gears, by the way, it's a BMX bike.

01:32:19   Like it's just straight up, took really good care of it,

01:32:23   cleaned it and oiled it all the time.

01:32:25   Like all the things you can imagine doing this bike,

01:32:27   it's like my prized possession.

01:32:28   I still have this bicycle, it's still in my house.

01:32:30   - Oh my word, wow, in the attic?

01:32:33   - In the basement.

01:32:34   I tried to get my kids to ride the bike.

01:32:36   It's like the reason I saved it for my kids.

01:32:38   And they couldn't care less.

01:32:40   A, they didn't care, and B, they didn't like it.

01:32:42   (laughing)

01:32:44   But I rode the bike.

01:32:46   Here I am, 30-something years old on my BMX bike.

01:32:49   You know what?

01:32:50   It's still a really good bike.

01:32:51   You get on it and you can tell.

01:32:53   This is, it's not a complicated thing.

01:32:55   It's got pedals and a gear,

01:32:57   then a chain that connects to another gear,

01:32:58   and some hand brakes and tires.

01:33:00   And of course the tires have been replaced over the years,

01:33:02   'cause I went through many tires

01:33:04   many inner tubes over the time of owning this,

01:33:05   but pretty much everything else on it, it's original.

01:33:08   And to this day, like how old is this bike?

01:33:12   It's a 1984 bike.

01:33:14   It rides great.

01:33:15   You pedal and it feels like, I don't know,

01:33:18   like I can, for Casey, like a BMW manual transmission,

01:33:21   or like a Swiss watch for Marco,

01:33:23   Swiss watches are still hard,

01:33:24   like precision piece of machinery.

01:33:26   There is no slippage, there is no slop.

01:33:30   All the bearings in it are smooth.

01:33:32   There is very, very little friction.

01:33:34   The brakes are a little crappy because the pads

01:33:37   and the brakes have been replaced many times

01:33:38   and they're kind of hard and crusty for me in the basement.

01:33:42   But the pedaling experience in this bike,

01:33:43   there are no squeaks and rattles, 100% solid.

01:33:47   So when I'm looking for bikes for my kids,

01:33:48   I'm like, well, they don't, whatever,

01:33:50   I just need any old bike, right?

01:33:52   But me being the obnoxious suburban rich dad

01:33:57   trying to buy things that are too expensive for his kids,

01:34:02   It's like, well, let me try to get, you know,

01:34:04   I know it's just a kid's bike,

01:34:05   but let me get a good quality one.

01:34:06   'Cause I want my kids to have a good quality,

01:34:08   but not just some cruddy like Toys R Us,

01:34:10   made of like some weird, terrible, cheap aluminum alloy

01:34:14   that you could bend with your fingers.

01:34:15   It's just gonna fall apart or rust or just, you know,

01:34:18   bend if it goes off in a little bump in the road.

01:34:20   I wanna get a good bike, right?

01:34:21   And maybe we'll have good resale value or whatever.

01:34:24   And I'm looking to try to find one, a kid's size,

01:34:27   you know, not an adult bike, but at a kid's size bike.

01:34:30   I'm not gonna spend thousands of dollars,

01:34:32   but I would spend a couple hundred bucks on it or whatever,

01:34:35   that maybe it's not gonna be as good as my Mongoose,

01:34:38   but just is competent.

01:34:40   That you pedal and it feels like

01:34:43   you are pushing yourself forward.

01:34:45   You don't feel the gears in the chain

01:34:47   or any other stuff like that.

01:34:48   And we went through a couple of bikes

01:34:51   and a couple of different ways to get them

01:34:53   in a couple of different stores.

01:34:55   And I felt like Marco buying something

01:34:57   and then returning it and buying something

01:34:58   and then returning it,

01:34:59   'cause they were all just terrible.

01:35:01   I hardly ever did that.

01:35:03   Sometimes the problem was the shipment.

01:35:07   The shipment would come and the box would be damaged.

01:35:09   You could see that it was crushed

01:35:11   and the gears would have been jammed against concrete

01:35:14   or something because the little teeth on the gears were bent

01:35:16   because you could tell that the paint was shaved off.

01:35:17   Sometimes you'd get it and no matter how much

01:35:21   you tried to lubricate things in it

01:35:23   and get it up and running,

01:35:24   always just the bike chain would bend and get a kink in it

01:35:28   and never straighten out or the chain would jump off.

01:35:30   I know how to, I have a lot of experience fixing

01:35:33   and maintaining bikes over my life,

01:35:34   all the way up to 10 speeds and everything when I was old.

01:35:35   Like, I know what I'm doing.

01:35:38   And these bikes were just crap.

01:35:39   Every part of them was crap.

01:35:40   Their bearings, if they had them at all, were crap.

01:35:42   The parts were not precisely manufactured.

01:35:46   They're made of crappy metal

01:35:47   that I could bend with my fingernails.

01:35:49   The paint jobs were terrible.

01:35:51   They were heavy, they were ugly.

01:35:52   They were slow, they felt terrible.

01:35:54   Every one of them was like,

01:35:57   I wouldn't have traded a thousand of them

01:35:58   for my Mongoose, right?

01:36:00   And I didn't understand why, you know,

01:36:03   what the deal is with bikes.

01:36:04   Like is it only like super adult multi-thousand dollar,

01:36:08   even more obnoxious rich dude bikes that you have to get?

01:36:10   Like is that the only place good quality components are?

01:36:14   Even Mongoose, which is a brand that still exists.

01:36:16   And I think Redline still exists too.

01:36:18   Their bikes are these weird monstrosities

01:36:19   that just don't seem to be the quality they used to.

01:36:22   And it got me into the super duper old man,

01:36:25   you know, second only to my literal telling children

01:36:27   to get off my lawn.

01:36:29   of like, they don't make things like they used to.

01:36:31   - Wait, do you do that?

01:36:32   - That was one of my, that's my favorite tweet

01:36:34   I have ever made.

01:36:35   (laughing)

01:36:36   I gotta look it up for the show notes.

01:36:38   So, this is the tweet,

01:36:40   I'm gonna try to recite it from memory.

01:36:43   The school bus stops in front of my house.

01:36:46   This morning I found myself literally telling children

01:36:48   to get off my lawn.

01:36:50   This is a real thing that happened.

01:36:52   Because the school bus stop is in front of my house,

01:36:54   and when the school bus stop, the kids are like,

01:36:55   oh, let's just go on this lawn here and like play ball

01:36:57   and run around and stomp through the planting beds

01:37:01   and throw balls so they end up hitting our house.

01:37:04   I'm not there until the kids to get off my lawn.

01:37:06   'Cause seriously, you think you wouldn't do this,

01:37:09   but just think about it.

01:37:10   If you had a bus stop in front of your house

01:37:12   and every single morning a fleet of children are there

01:37:15   just running around and stomping on your downspouts

01:37:17   and bending them and crushing your bushes

01:37:19   and throwing balls and bouncing off their house

01:37:21   and the balls hitting your car in your driveway, Casey,

01:37:23   you would go out there

01:37:24   and you would tell the kids to get off your lawn.

01:37:26   So I literally went out and told the kids to get off my lawn.

01:37:29   The school bus stop is in front of my house, period.

01:37:32   I am now literally telling children to get off my lawn, period.

01:37:36   8th of January, 2009.

01:37:38   And you would too.

01:37:40   You know, that's the oldest.

01:37:41   The second oldest I ever felt is, and I heard my grandfather say this all the time, and

01:37:45   I mostly just ignored him and rolled his eyes, but he would show me how they don't make them

01:37:48   like they used to.

01:37:49   Like, they don't make them with him, it was cars, right?

01:37:52   And I contend they do not make bikes for kids like they used to.

01:37:57   There is no bike at any price anywhere in the world that is of equal quality to my 1984

01:38:04   Mongoose California in terms of the simple machine with bearings and pedals and wheels

01:38:10   and chains that takes your leg energy and turns it into forward momentum.

01:38:17   That stupid thing in my basement right now hanging from the ceiling is better than anything

01:38:21   you can get at any price.

01:38:23   And I find that depressing.

01:38:25   And I'm assuming it's just because I

01:38:26   don't know the secret place and the secret brands for today's

01:38:29   good bikes.

01:38:29   Or maybe kids don't like bikes at all until they're adults

01:38:33   and ride grown-up bikes.

01:38:35   But anyway, that was depressing.

01:38:37   And I ended up getting my kids a series of terrible bikes

01:38:41   from--

01:38:42   I think they had a couple from bike stores and a couple

01:38:45   from Target.

01:38:45   And it's like, it doesn't matter.

01:38:46   It doesn't matter how much you spend or where you get them.

01:38:48   I just resigned to the fact that they're all crap.

01:38:50   Just, you know, after any end times, instead of pushing a shopping cart through the ruins

01:38:55   of civilization, I will be the 50-year-old man riding a way-too-small-for-him BMX bike

01:39:02   that is awesome.

01:39:03   Jon, I have good news, my friend.

01:39:06   You have successfully mustered up the appropriate amount of anger.

01:39:08   I was so much angrier then.

01:39:12   Because like, you know, it's the Marco style anger, like, "Something that money can't

01:39:16   fix?

01:39:17   What is wrong with the world?

01:39:18   I'm willing to spoil my children and buy them things that they shouldn't own, that they're

01:39:22   not going to appreciate, and yet I can't?

01:39:24   I'm not allowed to spoil my children?

01:39:28   The thing I want is not available on Amazon?

01:39:30   No, I was going to bike stores.

01:39:32   I went to actual bike stores.

01:39:34   We did actually buy a couple bikes at bike stores.

01:39:35   At least we got some that were sturdy from bike stores.

01:39:38   At tremendous expense, mind you, but I'm totally willing to support a bike store if it's going

01:39:41   to keep a bike store in business.

01:39:42   Because if you don't go to a bike store, it's Walmart, Target, Toys R Us, and like sporting

01:39:47   good stores. None of which know anything about bicycles. So if you have a local bike store,

01:39:51   go there and give them whatever they want because it is better than shopping elsewhere.

01:39:56   I think you guys have, does Adam have a scoot bike?

01:40:00   He has a balance bike. I don't know if that's the same thing. It's basically a bike with

01:40:04   no pedals.

01:40:05   Yeah, those are awesome.

01:40:06   Yeah, and he has taken, like he's had it now for over a year, I think. Maybe even two years.

01:40:14   He took to it immediately and is really into it.

01:40:17   It's almost to the point now where I was thinking about,

01:40:20   in a few weeks, I was thinking about trying him

01:40:22   on a real bike to see if he can do it yet.

01:40:26   I think he might be able to.

01:40:27   - He's 100% ready.

01:40:28   I've seen video of him doing it.

01:40:29   He is ready for a bike.

01:40:31   He is, you know, that scoot bike, he has totally mastered it.

01:40:34   He's, yeah, my kids never wanted to use a scoot bike.

01:40:37   Of course they want the scoot bikes.

01:40:38   Oh, I understand the theory behind a scoot bike.

01:40:40   It'll be awesome.

01:40:41   My kids were like, nope, no way in hell I'm getting on that.

01:40:42   So they took a long time to learn how to ride bikes.

01:40:45   But Adam's gonna be riding a bike tomorrow

01:40:47   if you give him a bike with pedals.

01:40:48   Don't even bother with the training wheels, he's ready.

01:40:50   - I didn't ride a bike until like middle school.

01:40:52   Took me a long time.

01:40:53   Same, 'cause I was like-- - This doesn't surprise you.

01:40:54   - Yeah, I was going into scooters

01:40:56   and just didn't really, I thought I didn't need the bike.

01:41:00   - You didn't understand mechanical advantage.

01:41:02   - Not at all, no.

01:41:04   Yeah, so it took me a while.

01:41:05   - Then you entered middle school

01:41:06   and you learned about levers and other simple machines.

01:41:10   - Well, and actually, at the beach,

01:41:12   it's like a no cars community.

01:41:15   Like there's no cars anywhere, so everyone bikes.

01:41:18   Yeah, everyone bikes everywhere.

01:41:19   And there were some bikes in the basement of this place,

01:41:23   and so I took one out in the last couple times

01:41:25   we'd been there and started riding it around.

01:41:27   And I haven't ridden a bike since my high school bike,

01:41:30   which was never quite adult size.

01:41:33   It was like a couple inches smaller than like a regular.

01:41:35   - Well, to be fair, you really hate adult size.

01:41:40   So, I didn't even see where that was going.

01:41:42   - I was just gonna say, to be fair,

01:41:43   hoping you would auto-complete the joke,

01:41:45   but I had to go a little farther.

01:41:48   - Yeah, so, I started riding it,

01:41:50   and first of all, riding a bike

01:41:52   when you haven't ridden one in probably 20 years--

01:41:57   - It's just like riding a bike.

01:41:58   - Yeah, the old saying, "Oh, it comes right back to you?"

01:42:00   I mean, yes, but not well, and it's terrifying.

01:42:04   And also, the bike--

01:42:06   - Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a second.

01:42:08   I took a long break riding bikes too, like most people.

01:42:10   You ride a bike when you're a kid and then you become an adult and you get a license,

01:42:13   you get a car.

01:42:14   So I think there was a pretty big gap between riding my bikes.

01:42:16   In my experience, it was like riding a bike.

01:42:20   No problem.

01:42:21   I'm like, "Of course I know how to do this."

01:42:23   Maybe your gap was longer than mine or maybe you didn't have the hours, the flight hours

01:42:29   in the seat of a bike.

01:42:30   But I just rode my bike.

01:42:32   I really like to pick up my car from the body shop where I got scratches fixed in my paint

01:42:37   and I had to go pick up the car,

01:42:38   but of course you can't drive a car to pick up the car,

01:42:40   so I had to ride my bike to pick up the car.

01:42:42   And you know, it was,

01:42:45   that's not the first time I've ridden a bike in a long time,

01:42:46   but anyway, in my experience it was just like

01:42:47   riding a bike and it wasn't terrifying,

01:42:49   but maybe your gap was longer.

01:42:51   - Well, kind of an exacerbating factor is that

01:42:54   the bike that was in the basement of this house

01:42:57   is not only very, very old

01:42:59   and has a lot of rust and failing parts.

01:43:01   Like, it is an 18-speed mountain bike.

01:43:04   I don't know what brand,

01:43:07   I don't think it would be a brand anybody would recognize it.

01:43:08   Like it isn't, it's a cheap bike,

01:43:10   but it's also a cheap old bike

01:43:11   that has been around sea air for a long time,

01:43:13   so there's lots of rust.

01:43:15   And it's to the point where like the gears,

01:43:18   like if you shift the big gear, like by the pedals,

01:43:21   if you shift that, the thing falls off.

01:43:25   Like the thing that moves the gears back and forth,

01:43:27   like it just falls off.

01:43:28   And you have to like, it jams up in weird ways

01:43:30   and you have to like unjam it in weird ways.

01:43:32   - It kinks in your chain too.

01:43:33   - Something like that,

01:43:34   but only if you shift the middle gear.

01:43:35   And then the back gears, like the smaller ones

01:43:38   that are supposed to be more fine grained,

01:43:41   the gear shifting thing seems to just skip

01:43:44   every two or three at a time.

01:43:46   So it is technically an 18 speed,

01:43:49   but I can only actually get it to engage

01:43:51   maybe three distinct speeds.

01:43:53   And they're very far apart from each other.

01:43:55   So I basically keep it in one gear.

01:43:58   - When I rode to get my car, I was using some ancient,

01:44:01   like it was given to us by a friend

01:44:03   who was gonna throw it in the garbage.

01:44:04   Same problem, it's like a mountain bike

01:44:06   with a whole bunch of gears, and in theory,

01:44:08   you have a whole bunch of them, but in practice,

01:44:09   it jumps over all the gears, and the worst part for me is,

01:44:12   because I have kinks in the chain,

01:44:14   if you try to pedal hard, the chain pops off the teeth.

01:44:17   - Oh, geez.

01:44:18   - And then catches again, like seven notches later,

01:44:21   and that is the worst thing when you're trying to pedal.

01:44:23   It's like, I just, I mean, I don't blame that bike.

01:44:25   I know there are available good mountain bikes

01:44:27   if I was willing to buy them,

01:44:28   just any hand-me-down bike, but yeah,

01:44:30   riding a bad bike feels gross.

01:44:32   The other problem is this bike is way too tall for me.

01:44:36   Like it's, first of all, not comfortable.

01:44:40   - You have your tippy toes to reach the pedal.

01:44:41   - I have to almost jump onto it.

01:44:43   Like that's how tall, it's way too tall.

01:44:47   - We need some video of this.

01:44:48   What is Tiff periscoping if not this?

01:44:50   - Right, you took the words right out of my mouth.

01:44:52   Like of all the stuff that you've periscoped.

01:44:54   - And the seat is at the bottom.

01:44:56   Like it can't be adjusted any further down

01:44:58   than where it is now.

01:44:59   And it's just too big for me.

01:45:01   - We get you to do a running start

01:45:02   and get that on Periscope.

01:45:03   You gotta do the running start and jump on.

01:45:06   - Yeah, so it's quite terrifying.

01:45:08   If I have to slow down,

01:45:10   to go around some people on the sidewalk,

01:45:12   I just have to just stop and just put my feet down.

01:45:15   I'll just wait for them to pass.

01:45:16   - Well, at least you can put your feet down.

01:45:18   When the seats are really high,

01:45:19   when I first got a couple of my 10 speeds

01:45:20   or when I'd ride my dad's 10 speeds,

01:45:22   my feet couldn't reach the ground.

01:45:23   I would have to jump off of the seat

01:45:25   and even when it was on the bar,

01:45:26   I'd be resting on my balls tilted over

01:45:29   so one foot could be on the ground.

01:45:30   - Yeah, I mean, yeah, I'm only putting one foot down.

01:45:32   I don't quite have your bar issue,

01:45:34   but it's not that far off.

01:45:35   Like, it's really, so yeah.

01:45:37   I, and so actually, this was interesting.

01:45:40   This was the second time I'm looking at bikes online today.

01:45:43   Earlier today, I thought, you know,

01:45:45   I would like to get, you know, obviously,

01:45:47   a bike that fits me for this place,

01:45:49   'cause I'm about to go be there for a long time

01:45:52   for my big summer vacation, so I would like to

01:45:55   maybe get my own bike that actually fits me,

01:45:58   that would be less terrifying to ride,

01:45:59   and maybe has years that work.

01:46:02   So I thought maybe I should look at bikes.

01:46:04   And I thought, you know, if there's one bike

01:46:05   that I would really want to have.

01:46:07   Okay, Jon, you know the decade that we grew up in.

01:46:10   Can you guess what bike I want?

01:46:13   - I do know the decade you grew up in,

01:46:16   but I didn't grow up in that decade.

01:46:18   I know what the answer would be if you were my age,

01:46:22   but I'm assuming because you're 90s children

01:46:24   that you want some kind of gross mountain biking thing

01:46:27   with suspension.

01:46:28   Casey, can you guess the one bike I might want

01:46:31   from our childhood?

01:46:32   - Oh, the Pee Wee Herman bike?

01:46:33   - Yep, there you go.

01:46:34   - That's closer to my generation.

01:46:36   - Oh my word, I should've known.

01:46:38   I should've known.

01:46:39   - Well, that's better than a gross mountain bike getting.

01:46:41   - I want the bike from Pee Wee's Big Adventure, right?

01:46:43   And it turns out that there is a community of people

01:46:47   who make replicas of these bikes,

01:46:49   but they only make them for themselves as projects.

01:46:52   They basically never go for sale anywhere.

01:46:54   - There's no gears on the Pee Wee bike.

01:46:55   You don't want that.

01:46:56   - Well, but actually, for the place that I'm staying at,

01:47:00   there's no hills, and you can't go that fast

01:47:02   because you're on sidewalks with people on them.

01:47:04   - But it could be too tall geared,

01:47:06   and then it's hard to go slow.

01:47:08   - I guess it's true.

01:47:09   I imagine there would be some way to maybe swap out

01:47:11   one, like the front gear or something,

01:47:12   to fix that in some way, right?

01:47:14   - I don't know.

01:47:16   - I don't know. - I mean, of course you can,

01:47:17   but I would think you could get,

01:47:18   get me a Pee Wee Herman replica bike, because I'm Marco,

01:47:20   but also give it to me with like five speeds or something.

01:47:23   - I mean, it's a whole custom build anyway,

01:47:25   so I'm sure I can get them to make one

01:47:27   that's actually my size and maybe give me three speeds.

01:47:30   I don't need a lot of speed.

01:47:31   - It would not have occurred to me.

01:47:34   I'm thinking, well, he's gonna get one of those expensive

01:47:36   carbon fiber racing bike, that type of thing.

01:47:39   Those are gonna cost a lot of money.

01:47:40   No, Marco wants someone to build him a bike,

01:47:42   some ridiculous bike from a movie.

01:47:45   - Yeah, and one of them that was actually in the movie,

01:47:48   one of the actual prop bikes,

01:47:50   sold on eBay in 2014 for $36,000.

01:47:53   - Yeah, don't get that one, please.

01:47:55   So yeah, well I'm not gonna get that.

01:47:57   Also, I wouldn't want to ride that one.

01:47:58   - That was not gonna ride good.

01:48:00   - Yeah, but apparently in order to build this bike,

01:48:02   you have to get a frame from, I think it's a Schwinn,

01:48:07   it's some kind of good bike frame from the 40s,

01:48:10   like the 1940s.

01:48:12   Like, find one of these frames

01:48:15   and then get all this custom stuff to go around it.

01:48:18   It's totally crazy.

01:48:20   - I'm all for these bikes as long as if I get on them

01:48:23   I pedal the pedals, I feel an efficient transfer of my leg force to forward momentum.

01:48:31   I don't want to feel the gears or the chains or friction of the parts moving.

01:48:35   I want to feel like my legs are magically attached to forward momentum.

01:48:41   I swear to you, no children's bike that I've sat on is like one-eighth as efficient as

01:48:48   a Mongo.

01:48:49   So if you're going to spend all this money on the fancy bike that looks like the Pee-Pee

01:48:50   your Hermann bike, also make sure that when you pedal it,

01:48:53   it feels like 100 times better than those crap bicycles

01:48:55   you're trying to ride now.

01:48:56   You're like, wow, suddenly biking is easier

01:48:58   because all the friction has been taken out

01:49:00   of this mechanical system.

01:49:02   - And the other thing is, if I actually want to bike a lot

01:49:06   in this beach place, there are parts of it,

01:49:09   I can only go so far unless I'm willing to go on sand

01:49:12   for some portion.

01:49:13   - Then you end up in the ocean of the bay, I know.

01:49:15   - No, no, I mean, it's a long space island,

01:49:18   But there's at some point, there are certain parts

01:49:21   where there's just private property

01:49:23   for the whole width of the island,

01:49:24   so you actually can't progress.

01:49:25   - Or then the ticks get you, you can't go any farther.

01:49:28   Oh, the ticks.

01:49:29   - Well you can if you're willing to drive

01:49:30   in the sand for a little bit.

01:49:32   So I actually, so they have, there are people around there

01:49:34   who have those giant Sand Cruiser tire bikes,

01:49:37   like the ones that have the five inch tires.

01:49:39   So I actually, and there's a rental place there,

01:49:41   so I think about renting one while I'm there

01:49:44   just for a day and just try it and see if,

01:49:46   I imagine I'm going to hate trying to bike on sand.

01:49:49   It's probably ridiculously hard.

01:49:50   - Yeah, those tires don't make it that much easier.

01:49:53   - Yeah, right, exactly. - Still biking on sand.

01:49:55   - The other, so basically I'm looking,

01:49:57   considering two options.

01:49:58   The other option is an e-bike, which is the very,

01:50:01   this is like, this would be the high-end option.

01:50:03   - Oh, god. - Of course.

01:50:04   - If you're willing to spend like two grand, at least,

01:50:06   on a bike, you can get one that has an electric motor assist.

01:50:10   - Why do you even say if?

01:50:12   - And so, well, but listen, I'll address that in a second.

01:50:15   (laughs)

01:50:16   You can get one that has an electric motor assist

01:50:18   and a small lithium battery in it,

01:50:20   and those would be nice when going on the sand

01:50:23   to just assist you through the sand

01:50:24   and you can get back on the pavement

01:50:25   and turn the assist off.

01:50:26   (laughs)

01:50:27   So that's one thing.

01:50:29   However, one thing I really hate about the practicality

01:50:34   of using a bike in a place like this

01:50:35   is that you have to lock it.

01:50:37   Locking a bike sucks,

01:50:38   and bikes, you always have to worry so much about theft

01:50:41   because they're stolen so often,

01:50:43   and even if you get the most ridiculous locks,

01:50:45   they'll just like steal all the parts or whatever.

01:50:47   - Are they gonna be stolen where you are?

01:50:49   Because there is a physical reason why bike thieves

01:50:54   would have more difficulty.

01:50:55   Like unless it's gonna be stolen by your neighbor.

01:50:57   - Right, yeah, it's like,

01:50:59   'cause like where are you gonna take the bike?

01:51:00   Are you gonna get on the ferry?

01:51:01   - Where are you gonna go?

01:51:02   - Yeah, exactly.

01:51:03   - But--

01:51:03   - You have time to catch them, there's a bottleneck.

01:51:05   You can just show up at the ferry with some goons

01:51:07   and be like, "Where are you gonna go?

01:51:09   "Drive it off into the ocean?

01:51:10   "No, I know where you're going."

01:51:12   But I feel like there are two approaches here

01:51:16   that would make sense.

01:51:17   Number one, get a nice bike.

01:51:20   Get a Pee Wee Herman bike or something that is of that style

01:51:23   that I can really be proud of.

01:51:24   Get a nice Schwinn, a nice brand, and give it some gears.

01:51:28   Make it a really nice bike.

01:51:29   That's probably gonna be about 1,000 bucks.

01:51:32   Or you go the crazy e-bike route,

01:51:33   but I don't think that's really necessary or practical

01:51:36   or worth the cost, necessarily.

01:51:38   - None of those things have ever bothered you before, ever.

01:51:41   - True, or just get the cheapest bike you can possibly find

01:51:45   and just don't lock it.

01:51:47   Like, who cares?

01:51:48   Like, if you steal it--

01:51:49   - They'll still steal it.

01:51:50   - They will still steal, but if it's like a $60 Walmart bike,

01:51:54   then it's like, it's a lot less of a loss, you know?

01:51:56   - You don't wanna ride that.

01:51:57   You're gonna be spending all your muscle strength

01:51:59   will be going to friction.

01:52:00   Those things, it's just not an enjoyable experience.

01:52:03   It's terrible.

01:52:04   Don't do it.

01:52:05   I mean, you don't have to spend,

01:52:06   there's something in between $2,000 and $60.

01:52:08   You can buy a $200 bike, don't lock it,

01:52:10   resign yourself that it's going to get stolen every 1.5 years

01:52:13   and just go.

01:52:14   Right.

01:52:14   Honestly, I think I would rather have

01:52:16   that than a fancy expensive bike that I would worry

01:52:19   about getting stolen all the time.

01:52:21   And $2,000, by the way, is low.

01:52:23   If you were to buy a racing bike, a road bike,

01:52:26   10 speed is dated lingo or whatever,

01:52:29   you can go up 10 grand easy on those.

01:52:31   It's not like watches, but it is like Macs.

01:52:33   You can keep going well into the five digits

01:52:36   and just keep going and keep going, and it's insane.

01:52:38   And also those, like that's the type of bike--

01:52:40   - Five digits?

01:52:41   - Yeah, yeah.

01:52:42   - Holy, wow.

01:52:44   I mean, I guess once you can start getting

01:52:46   to like carbon fiber and stuff,

01:52:47   I guess the sky's the limit, right?

01:52:48   - And there's the, and like Max,

01:52:51   there's the premium above and beyond.

01:52:52   Yes, this is made of fancy materials and engineering,

01:52:54   but also we know that, you know,

01:52:57   you're the pro users and you're actual racers,

01:53:00   and yeah, it can get very expensive very fast.

01:53:03   - Man, who knew?

01:53:05   - It's better than a watch.

01:53:06   - Actually, people in the chat suggested

01:53:09   the Schwinn Cruisers line.

01:53:11   This actually looks pretty nice.

01:53:13   - Yeah, they're like the same between the thing.

01:53:14   They look like Pete with Hermann's style,

01:53:15   but they're just playing up the middle bikes,

01:53:17   couple hundred bucks.

01:53:19   I've never been on one, but I assume they pedal okay.

01:53:22   - Available exclusively at Schwinn's

01:53:24   signature independent bike shops.

01:53:26   - Yeah.

01:53:27   Oh wow, 800 bucks?

01:53:28   I guessed too low.

01:53:30   - Yeah, the high end ones are 800 bucks.

01:53:31   The lower ones are more like in the four to five range.

01:53:34   - Yeah, well that's the thing.

01:53:35   I don't know at what point in this price range,

01:53:38   pedaling becomes just like grinding a bunch of metal gears

01:53:41   through sand.

01:53:42   At what point does it become like, you know,

01:53:44   sliding the bolt on a well oiled rifle?

01:53:45   That's the bike you want.

01:53:47   If you can borrow my Mongoose,

01:53:49   it might be the right size.

01:53:50   (laughing)

01:53:52   Actually, no, I would not let you borrow my Mongoose.

01:53:53   - No, you wouldn't.

01:53:54   - Even though it was the best Christmas present

01:53:55   I ever received, never would have received,

01:53:57   it is still one of my prized possessions.

01:54:00   So that's why I still have it.

01:54:01   - I would not want to borrow your Mongoose,

01:54:03   because I'd be too afraid of damaging it.

01:54:05   Oh, yeah, I did a pretty good job on it.

01:54:08   This tells you how different I was as a child

01:54:11   and how it took me a long time to become

01:54:13   the thing that you see before you today.

01:54:16   At one point, I wanted to make sure

01:54:19   that I had fear of my bike being stolen

01:54:21   because the mongoose and red lines were highly coveted

01:54:25   in the neighborhood.

01:54:26   And I wanted to make sure that I could identify my mongoose.

01:54:29   And the way my nine-year-old brain decided to do this was

01:54:34   was there was like a sticker on the front,

01:54:36   like a little tube that connects the handlebars

01:54:38   down to the front fork, right?

01:54:39   And there's a sticker on the front.

01:54:41   I decided to take one of my dad's razor blades

01:54:44   from like his little tool area

01:54:46   and cut a big line down the middle of the sticker,

01:54:48   like cut like a valley and not even like a straight one,

01:54:50   but it's like this big jagged, you know,

01:54:53   as if you had taken something

01:54:54   and just scraped the front of the thing.

01:54:56   So like now I can always identify my bike

01:54:58   and that's what I did.

01:54:59   Does that sound the same to you?

01:55:00   Like what?

01:55:01   No version of my brain as exists today

01:55:03   would consider like I literally damaged my own bike to identify it and so down there

01:55:07   is down in the basement with a big giant gash there and me looking at it and saying what

01:55:11   what were you thinking nine-year-old me wow oh my word now we just need to get Casey a

01:55:20   bike and we'll be ready to go I I wanted not the mongoose Californian I want to say it

01:55:28   the Huffy White Heat which was like... Huffy's crap. I'm not saying it was good. I'm not saying it was good, Sean.

01:55:36   Huffy is like the bottom of the neighborhood ladder.

01:55:42   There was nothing below that. There was no like Walmart brand by Huffy. That was

01:55:45   the bottom. Oh my god. Are you done? Mm-hmm. Just saying. I don't even want to tell

01:55:51   the story. I'm done. Go ahead. I gotta go get this bike now. It's the Huffy what? White Heat. I was looking for a

01:55:57   a picture earlier. I never found a terribly great one.

01:55:59   - Oh, it auto completed. It must be a popular bike.

01:56:02   - I don't know.

01:56:03   I think I wanted it because if memory serves,

01:56:07   it had a pretty serious like marketing push.

01:56:11   And I think it had like the little,

01:56:12   like guards in front of the handlebars,

01:56:16   which I thought was super cool.

01:56:17   - It totally did.

01:56:18   It's a mountain bike, not a BMX bike.

01:56:20   - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:56:21   And it was like neon green as you do

01:56:23   in the late eighties, early nineties.

01:56:26   And I just wanted it so hard and I eventually,

01:56:30   did I get it?

01:56:31   I don't remember now.

01:56:31   You can tell how much it really--

01:56:33   - I'm assuming it was still a crap bike

01:56:34   because, you know, Huffy.

01:56:35   - I'm sure it was.

01:56:36   (laughing)

01:56:37   - Wow.

01:56:39   I mean, these days, Huffy is probably like, you know,

01:56:42   it's a name brand.

01:56:42   It's above like the whatever the random Walmart brands are.

01:56:46   So it actually probably is probably the same,

01:56:48   probably the same quality as Mongoose and Redline these days.

01:56:50   But when I was a kid, Huffy was, you just, you know,

01:56:53   oh, you just go to Huffy.

01:56:55   It was a very materialistic, go-go '80s,

01:56:58   money equals status environment

01:57:03   for the single digit year old boys

01:57:07   in suburban New York neighborhoods, 100%.

01:57:10   (laughing)

01:57:12   Huffy's a funny name.

01:57:13   - I'm looking at this cool Schwinn bike.

01:57:15   The only thing is it's like,

01:57:18   I doubt I'm a 26 inch, I'm pretty sure that's like--

01:57:22   - Do they have a bike store there near you?

01:57:24   - There is a bike store in my town.

01:57:26   It is not, whatever kind of dealer Schwinn says

01:57:28   these are exclusively sold within,

01:57:29   it is not showing up on their map.

01:57:31   - 'Cause you do want to,

01:57:33   well you can probably fit a bike in your Tesla, easy.

01:57:35   What you wanna do is ride it.

01:57:36   Go to a bike store to buy it, first of all,

01:57:38   even though you're gonna pay way more,

01:57:39   and then they'll let you ride it.

01:57:40   Try it out, see how it feels,

01:57:42   then you'll know what size,

01:57:43   and you'll be able to distinguish the crap bikes

01:57:44   from the good ones, you ride them back to back.

01:57:47   It's well worth it.

01:57:48   - Yeah, that is how I would do it,

01:57:50   especially because I don't know what I'm doing.

01:57:52   So I would want the expertise of a local shop.

01:57:55   This is exactly what local shops are good at.

01:57:57   - Yep.

01:57:58   - Should I get a Mongoose Californian from 1984

01:58:01   for Adam's first bike?

01:58:02   - That would be amazing.

01:58:03   - If you could find one in a new condition,

01:58:06   and if he fits on the bike, yes, absolutely.

01:58:09   - How old of a kid do you have to be to fit on it?

01:58:11   - I think he's too small.

01:58:12   He would have to be much bigger than he is.

01:58:14   But if your kid was tall enough for it

01:58:16   at the time that he wanted his first bike,

01:58:18   yes, if you could find one.

01:58:19   'Cause judging by the condition mine is in,

01:58:22   I don't know if they're expensive to get in good condition, but yeah.

01:58:25   Let's see.

01:58:26   Have you actually looked?

01:58:28   I have looked.

01:58:29   I was looking for pictures of other people.

01:58:30   The problem is a lot of them, they seem to be modified a lot.

01:58:33   It's like trying to find a 1990s Honda Civic with no modifications in good condition.

01:58:37   It's basically impossible.

01:58:39   I can get just the fork for $400.

01:58:43   Yikes.

01:58:46   There's one on eBay for $600.

01:58:48   Oh my God.

01:58:49   These are much more than I expected.

01:58:52   the popular bike. The ones that have the plastic wheels? No. You want the ones with the wire

01:58:56   spoke wheels. Those plastic wheels are either an option or aftermarket. And just so you

01:59:01   know that, let me find you a picture of my actual bike as close as I can find.

01:59:04   Yeah, it looks like the going rate for these is generally, looks like it's around 500 bucks.

01:59:11   If you look at eBay, sold items. That's probably close to what they are. Oh,

01:59:16   look at this. Every single one I find is modified. So in this picture I'm going to put in the

01:59:20   chat room now, it's close to mine. It has the... mine does not have the bent back seat.

01:59:24   My seat pole is straight. The stock seat poles were straight. And also those pedals are weird.

01:59:30   But that is very, very close. And you can see the sticker I put the scratch in, right

01:59:33   in the little tube there. This is very close to... it's also probably in better condition

01:59:37   than mine. But it's very close to mine.

01:59:38   You should do the scratch technique with your jet black iPhone.

01:59:41   Yeah, I always wonder what it looks like. Sometimes I forget I have a jet black phone

01:59:44   because it's in the case and I think about what it might look like under there. The best

01:59:47   thing about the '84 Californian is like Power Rangers, it came in colors. Black, red, blue,

01:59:54   what was the other color? But anyway, you can see if you do a Google search for 1984

01:59:58   Mongoose, California, you can see the red and the blue ones and the black ones. I got

02:00:01   the black one obviously because it's the coolest. But the wheels on the red one were red, which

02:00:07   was pretty cool. The wheels on the blue one were blue. Total Power Rangers vibe and the

02:00:12   the colors looked awesome. They were like the candy colored IMAX before they were a

02:00:16   thing. The point I would like to have, if I could get mint condition, I'm trying to

02:00:22   think if there was a color other than red, blue, and black, but if I could get mint condition

02:00:25   versions of all those with all the original stuff, like that would be right next to my

02:00:29   LaFerrari and my fantasy unlimited money mansion.

02:00:34   Wait, if you could get a mint condition what now?

02:00:37   All three of these colors.

02:00:38   Oh!

02:00:39   Of these bikes.

02:00:41   What is a two-speed kickback drivetrain?

02:00:44   What is that?

02:00:45   Is that the one when you pedal backwards to brake?

02:00:47   I don't know.

02:00:49   Never heard that term.

02:00:50   It's the newfangled technologies.

02:00:52   I was a kid, bikes were simpler.

02:00:55   They didn't have these weird, they had these things to make changing your simp, you know,

02:00:58   easier.

02:00:59   Like you just like making a binary, like click this little wheel and it clicks the next number,

02:01:02   you've changed gears.

02:01:03   Whereas I come from the generation where you pull lever that pulls a cord and you have

02:01:08   to pull it the right amount to get the thing onto the gear, right?

02:01:11   So it was all, you know, completely analog adjustment

02:01:13   of knowing just where to put it.

02:01:15   Now they try to make it mechanical.

02:01:16   All these things have some sort of ratcheting mechanism

02:01:18   where it's like click, click,

02:01:19   and it's exactly on the gear, or it's not.

02:01:22   And there's nothing you can do about it.

02:01:23   - So the people in the chat are saying

02:01:26   what this means is that you pedal backwards

02:01:28   really hard to shift gears.

02:01:30   - That's terrible. - So it's a what?

02:01:31   - It's a two-speed that you just like pedal backwards

02:01:33   to shift between, so I guess it probably still has

02:01:34   some kind of like, you know, handle, brake.

02:01:36   Here, I'll place this thing in the chat room.

02:01:37   This bike for some reason has a built-in cup holder

02:01:39   and bottle opener.

02:01:41   - Seems like a bad idea.

02:01:42   - That's a high performance machine right there.

02:01:44   (laughing)

02:01:45   You know it's got a high cup holder and bottle opener.

02:01:48   Yeah, I guess maybe it's a way to have gears on a bike

02:01:52   that doesn't have a derailleur.

02:01:53   It's, I've never heard of that.

02:01:55   - Yeah, it probably just keeps the handlebar area simpler.

02:01:58   Like you don't have the big cables running up

02:02:00   to do the gear shifting.

02:02:01   - And it also has some kind of suspension.

02:02:04   That's a popular thing now for old people's delicate butts,

02:02:06   like lots of bikes have suspension.

02:02:08   - Yeah, yeah, yeah, you would expect that.

02:02:10   I wouldn't expect that.

02:02:12   - Well, I expect that, excuse me.

02:02:14   - Expect a cushion for your bum.

02:02:16   - You say bum?

02:02:18   You're one of those people?

02:02:19   - No. - You're a bum person?

02:02:20   - No, it's like you're a posh-ish cushion,

02:02:22   so you gotta say bum.

02:02:23   - Yeah, see, the cool one I'm looking at here,

02:02:25   this big classic one, this one has a cruiser springer fork.

02:02:30   Does that mean it's like a little spring suspension in there?

02:02:32   What does that mean?

02:02:33   - Maybe.

02:02:34   I mean, like I said, almost every bike for grownups

02:02:36   has some form of suspension because grownups don't like

02:02:38   going over the pothole ridden infrastructure

02:02:41   on our crumbling nation.

02:02:43   And realizing that those shocks

02:02:45   transfer directly through to you, it's unpleasant.

02:02:48   As a kid, I don't remember being bothered by this at all,

02:02:50   but as an adult, as a much heavier, larger adult,

02:02:52   I can tell you it is jarring

02:02:53   to have those jolts come through.

02:02:56   - This one is totally awesome.

02:02:57   If I can somehow try this in person somewhere

02:02:59   and if it actually fits me, I would seriously consider this.

02:03:02   - Yeah, that's pretty stylin'.

02:03:04   The other one was much more kind of like black and ugly.

02:03:07   This looks like it.

02:03:08   - Yeah, this one looks awesome.

02:03:09   And it has, this is like total 50s throwback.

02:03:12   It has a built-in headlight and a horn.

02:03:15   - You gotta get a place to put a basket

02:03:16   so you can put groceries and stuff in it.

02:03:18   - It has the big back rack thing.

02:03:20   Can you just hang stuff off of that, right?

02:03:22   - Yeah, well you have like a,

02:03:23   you can get panniers or something

02:03:24   for the back on the sides of the wheels.

02:03:26   - Is that what you call the little side things?

02:03:28   - Yeah, or you can just get a big crate.

02:03:30   You should ask the Portland people.

02:03:31   They're all riding their bikes.

02:03:33   They have these giant wheelbarrows

02:03:35   that you put your kids in that you push

02:03:36   in front of your bike.

02:03:38   - We did everything on bikes over there,

02:03:39   which I don't understand,

02:03:40   'cause it isn't always raining there, but.

02:03:41   - It is always raining here.

02:03:42   Or there.

02:03:43   And also, so, one of the reasons I don't have a bike

02:03:45   here at home is because I live in a very hilly town.

02:03:48   And biking on hills sucks.

02:03:50   But, at the beach, it's totally flat.

02:03:53   Like, there's no hills.

02:03:55   And because you're riding on sidewalks

02:03:57   that are shared with people,

02:03:58   you can't go that fast anyway.

02:04:00   - You're riding the bike on the side of,

02:04:02   I guess there is no streets, right?

02:04:03   - Yeah, they're like broad walks.

02:04:05   Like, they're big.

02:04:06   - Telling alleys.

02:04:07   - Yeah, well they're basically like double wide sidewalks.

02:04:10   Those are the streets.

02:04:12   But there's a lot of people around

02:04:13   like during peak weekends and stuff.

02:04:15   So you do have to be cautious of people.

02:04:17   And as you're walking you hear like the bike bells

02:04:19   behind you, ding ding, and you gotta move over.

02:04:22   Yeah, so I'm never going that fast.

02:04:25   And I'm never going uphill.

02:04:27   That's where I can get a ridiculous bike

02:04:28   like a big cruiser like this.

02:04:29   And it's not really impractical at all

02:04:31   with the exception of having to lock it up

02:04:33   and not worry about getting stolen.

02:04:35   - The only thing I worry about with these bikes

02:04:37   is because there are like 50 style bikes,

02:04:39   the reason they don't make bikes like this anymore

02:04:40   is they're heavy.

02:04:41   Like all that metal stuff for the guards to like,

02:04:43   oh, so the rain doesn't splash back up on you,

02:04:45   you're not gonna be riding in the rain.

02:04:46   Like everything about it, the metal cover for the chain

02:04:49   and the big tube thing, like this is a heavy bike

02:04:52   and heavy bike equals harder to pedal and you know,

02:04:55   like not good.

02:04:56   So all the bikes, you want the bike to be light.

02:04:58   - Actually, so actually for my purposes here,

02:05:01   I actually want, basically I've been enjoying biking there

02:05:06   for exercise and kind of sightseeing,

02:05:09   but exercise is one of the primary goals.

02:05:11   Because I do a lot of dog walks,

02:05:13   but my dog is fairly small, and he can only take so much.

02:05:16   So if I wanna keep going with the exercise for the day,

02:05:19   I gotta go out on a bike

02:05:20   and get some more distance that way.

02:05:22   But for my purposes, it's actually better

02:05:24   if the bike is less efficient.

02:05:25   - You're just saying that you didn't wanna ride bikes

02:05:28   where there were hills, you gotta make up your mind.

02:05:29   You wanna exercise or you do not wanna exercise?

02:05:31   - I want some exercise.

02:05:33   - But not that much.

02:05:34   - Yeah, exactly.

02:05:35   Anyway, I think in the grand scheme of things, you want a bike that is efficient, that doesn't

02:05:40   have a lot of friction losses, and that is not too heavy because it is much more satisfying

02:05:44   to ride an efficient bike for longer distances or faster than to ride a heavier bike for shorter

02:05:50   distances. Like, it's the same amount of exercise work, but it feels worse to do the heavier bike

02:05:54   for shorter distances. That makes sense.

02:05:57   So you want to feel like, because the whole point of the bike is mechanically managed,

02:05:59   like, look how fast I can go with just this much effort. If I put this much effort into walking,

02:06:03   I'd be going slowly same on effort into a bike and I'm flying it's going fast as fun and the wind on you and it's you

02:06:09   Know making the sweat evaporate and cooling you off you want the efficient bike

02:06:13   Fine and you have to pass the periscope this give her her assignment. Oh, yes

02:06:18   Absolutely. Yeah

02:06:21   Whatever also honest periscope. I want to see you renting the sand bike and trying to

02:06:24   I've never tried one of those things either. I see them right. I see them riding on the street

02:06:28   You can hear them coming from a mile away like your m5 because the stupid tires the giant knobby tires and the asphalt make this

02:06:33   - It's a terrible droning noise.

02:06:34   - Yep.

02:06:35   - Right?

02:06:36   I've never seen one riding on sand

02:06:37   and I've never tried it,

02:06:38   but it seems like it would be terrible.

02:06:41   - Yeah, that's why, yeah,

02:06:42   I'm not in a huge rush to do that,

02:06:44   'cause I suspect, you're right,

02:06:45   I suspect it will be just awful.

02:06:48   So that's one of the reasons why,

02:06:49   I've been going there a lot this summer

02:06:51   and I still haven't done it.

02:06:52   I keep putting this off.

02:06:53   Still haven't done it.

02:06:54   So, probably not going to, but.

02:06:57   - Hey Casey, here's what Huffy meant in my time.

02:07:00   Take a look at that.

02:07:01   - That's hideous.

02:07:02   - That's a hell of a thing, huh?

02:07:03   1970s Huffy.

02:07:05   And that seat you see there, it's not a banana seat,

02:07:07   'cause banana seats are for girls,

02:07:09   or so we thought when we were stupid kids in the '70s.

02:07:12   It's like a manly banana seat.

02:07:14   See how much thicker it is?

02:07:15   - It's a bro-nana seat.

02:07:16   - Yeah, and I had, before my mongoose,

02:07:19   I had basically an off-brand Huffy.

02:07:21   It's like it wasn't even good enough to be a Huffy.

02:07:22   It was like generic, terrible bicycle,

02:07:25   and I had one of those seats on it.

02:07:26   I hated it.

02:07:27   - All right, I have a question.

02:07:28   This bike I'm looking at, this big Schwinn '50s thing,

02:07:31   - It doesn't appear to have brakes in the--

02:07:34   - Does it have coaster brakes?

02:07:35   - Yeah, it says brakes coaster.

02:07:37   - Coaster brakes are terrible, they're stupid,

02:07:39   they're from the 50s, but that's what you're getting

02:07:41   when you buy one of those.

02:07:42   - Is that when you pedal backwards and it stops?

02:07:44   - Yes, yep, you pedal backwards

02:07:46   and it tries feebly to stop.

02:07:48   There's a reason every real modern bike has hand brakes

02:07:52   because coaster brakes suck,

02:07:53   but you're not gonna be going fast,

02:07:54   so you'll probably be fine.

02:07:55   - Yeah, hmm, I'm gonna look at this.

02:07:57   - Just don't get up to speed going down a big long hill

02:07:59   and think you're gonna be able to jam on the brakes

02:08:01   because you won't because coaster brakes suck.

02:08:02   - But there are no hills.

02:08:04   - And they only break the back wheels.

02:08:05   So all it's gonna do, if you did ever start going fast

02:08:08   and you tried to stop, all you would do is,

02:08:09   if you were able to with the coaster brakes,

02:08:11   if you were even able to, is lock up the back wheel

02:08:13   and then your bike would continue to slide and slide.

02:08:16   - Yeah, I'd just spin out at that point.

02:08:18   - No, you don't spin out.

02:08:19   You continue to go the direction you were going,

02:08:20   you just don't stop.

02:08:21   It's like locking up, imagine if you could just lock up

02:08:23   the back wheels on a car.

02:08:25   It would stop eventually and you could still steer

02:08:27   during that time but you wouldn't stop as fast.

02:08:29   So with the bike, you want to have front and back brakes that you're able to modulate so

02:08:33   that you can stop faster.

02:08:36   If you lock up both wheels, obviously you've got double the friction, you stop even faster,

02:08:39   but usually it doesn't come to that.

02:08:42   Have they not figured out analog brakes for bikes yet?

02:08:45   Those are analog, yeah.

02:08:46   You're pressing the levers.

02:08:47   When I was out, this was the first time I rode my bike amongst the cars in a long time,

02:08:52   because normally you're riding it recreationally, now it's riding to actually go somewhere.

02:08:56   And I don't know if things have gotten worse since I was a kid, but people in cars want

02:09:00   to kill people on bicycles.

02:09:03   I was using all of my defensive bicycle driving skills honed over many years of riding on

02:09:08   like actual major highways before I had my license with my 10-speed bike and everything

02:09:13   just to stay alive.

02:09:14   I was shocked at exactly how aggressively people in cars want to kill bicycles.

02:09:20   - Yeah, I have zero temptation to ride a bike on roads.

02:09:25   'Cause, yeah, I mean, up here in the suburbs

02:09:30   it would probably be less horrible,

02:09:32   but I still don't think it would be great.

02:09:34   Because I feel like people, like drivers really hate bikers.

02:09:39   I don't know, like I'm a driver, I don't care about bikers.

02:09:41   - Or they're oblivious, even when there's bike lanes.

02:09:43   They don't care, we have actual painted on the ground

02:09:47   bike lanes with little pictures of bicycles

02:09:48   dedicated lanes and cars are like, "This is my lane. Bicycle, go away. I'm going to run

02:09:53   you off the road with my giant Tesla Model X." It's like, "Save me!" You know, like,

02:09:58   it just, it was scary.

02:10:00   So looking at the reviews of this bike, it's apparently 67 pounds? That's a pretty heavy

02:10:06   bike. That seems like a lot.

02:10:08   It is a lot. It's made out of 50s metal, and they have metal places where you don't need

02:10:12   it. Why does there need to be a metal chain guard? Why does there need to be a chain guard?

02:10:15   Why? Because that's what they did in the 50s because they were dumb.

02:10:18   And all they had was metal left over from the war.

02:10:21   They can't, like for this price, they can't throw in some aluminum, maybe?

02:10:24   Like, there are lighter metals.

02:10:26   I think it is probably is aluminum.

02:10:27   There's just so much of it.

02:10:29   I mean, so you need something structural, like structural steel or like very strong

02:10:33   aluminum for the frame.

02:10:34   Yeah, for the frame.

02:10:35   But all the decoration pieces, that could be carbon fiber.

02:10:39   It's not, though.

02:10:40   It's metal, and it adds up.

02:10:42   Maybe it's, the whole thing is steel.

02:10:43   That would explain 67 pounds, but yeah.

02:10:45   Yeah.

02:10:46   - I think the weight for the Mongoose California

02:10:48   is probably lower.

02:10:49   - Well yeah, 'cause there's like no bike there practically.

02:10:52   - 25 pounds for the Californian.

02:10:56   - So I can fit almost three of them

02:10:59   in the weight of this bike apparently.

02:11:01   It does have excellent reviews.

02:11:04   The reviewers all say basically what you'd expect

02:11:05   is like this is an awesome bike, it's beautiful,

02:11:08   it's smooth, it looks awesome, it's great,

02:11:11   it's fun to ride, however it's heavy

02:11:13   and the brake is not sufficient enough for its weight.

02:11:17   - Coaster brake.

02:11:18   - Everything you'd expect.

02:11:19   - Oh no, I don't want eBay looking at these bikes.

02:11:23   This is not good.

02:11:24   - I told you, yeah, but it looks like they go,

02:11:26   they seem to go in pretty reasonable quantity

02:11:29   'cause if you look at sold items,

02:11:30   there's a good number of them there

02:11:32   and they seem to be approximately $500 range.

02:11:37   - For non-original, like they're not even,

02:11:39   I can look at them, I can say these are not original parts,

02:11:41   all sorts of aftermarket stuff and still 500,

02:11:43   there's lots of people with fond memories of this bike,

02:11:45   I think, people my age with money they wanna spend.

02:11:48   Chromoly, that's what the frame is made out of.

02:11:52   What is chromoly?

02:11:54   The world may never know.

02:11:55   - Yeah, I've never even heard of that.

02:11:58   - That was, it's a big selling point in the 80s,

02:11:59   like blast processing.

02:12:00   - Right, yeah, exactly. - Disgust amongst the kids

02:12:02   in like the lunchroom, chromoly was disgust.

02:12:04   (laughing)

02:12:07   Does your bike have chromoly?

02:12:08   No, it's a chromoly frame.

02:12:10   Well, the chrome part of it you can get because it's shiny.

02:12:13   Like the outside looks like it's shiny in chrome.

02:12:16   What was it made about in the--

02:12:16   I'm assuming it was some sort of aluminum thing or whatever,

02:12:19   but blast processing in Chromoly.

02:12:21   That's it.

02:12:23   (beeping)

02:12:25   [ Silence ]