229: Just Smush the Screen Somewhere


00:00:00   It would shoot it out about halfway like kind of a tongue sticking out of your mouth and make this little noise

00:00:03   And then it would pop out

00:00:06   Okay, we can get started as always with follow-up and

00:00:11   Approximately one tenth of the internet I counted wrote in to tell us about a drag and drop replacement

00:00:18   If you recall, uh, I spoke about drag and drop last week

00:00:21   And it was a thing where if you wiggle your mouse you get kind of a shelf for lack of a better term

00:00:26   where you can store things temporarily and then drag them off of that shelf into somewhere else.

00:00:32   So it allows for you to manipulate your computer rather than having to commit to a drag,

00:00:38   start to finish, all in one shot. And a bunch of people wrote in very helpfully and suggested Yoink,

00:00:44   which I have installed. There is a demo outside of the App Store. I installed it, ran the demo for

00:00:51   about a day, realized this is pretty much as close to drag and drop as I can possibly get

00:00:56   without actually being drag and drop and so I then purchased it for seven dollars from the Mac App Store and it is quite good.

00:01:03   Yoink basically allows you to have a shelf not unlike drag and drop. In some ways

00:01:08   it's actually better than drag and drop because it allows you to put multiple things on the shelf

00:01:12   whereas my recollection of drag and drop was that basically it was one item and that's it. Or you know like one collection of items.

00:01:18   Basically one drag operation into the shelf was all you got. Whereas with Yoink

00:01:23   you can put several different things in the shelf all at once. You can drag them out as

00:01:26   one unit or drag them out as individual units, etc. etc. etc. It's very, very good. I like

00:01:30   it a lot. Pro tip in the preferences, which I don't have in front of me and I'm not going

00:01:35   to try to dig up, but there's a way to say rather than having the shelf appear on one

00:01:41   of the edges of the screen, you can have it appear very near where the drag is happening,

00:01:46   which is a faux replacement for the wiggle the mouse approach of drag and drop, which

00:01:50   which I loved.

00:01:52   So yeah, having used Yoink for all of two or three days,

00:01:55   two thumbs up from me.

00:01:57   - I wonder if the reason why drag and drop

00:01:58   went out of business was that it's impossible

00:02:00   to talk about it on a podcast without saying

00:02:02   the animal dragon and the word drop,

00:02:05   not drag dash and dash drop.

00:02:08   - Yeah, exactly.

00:02:09   - To clarify all these things.

00:02:11   - But yeah, it's good stuff,

00:02:13   so I definitely recommend it.

00:02:15   And like I said, there's a demo

00:02:16   if you wanna try it out for a little bit.

00:02:17   We'll put both a link to the developer's website

00:02:20   you can grab the demo and the App Store link in the show notes.

00:02:25   So several of you wrote in to encourage John Siracusa to talk about old Mac stuff, which

00:02:31   is almost as bad as encouraging Stephen Hackett to talk about old Mac stuff.

00:02:37   So let's talk about old Mac stuff.

00:02:39   John, tell me about old Mac menu UI, if you please.

00:02:42   >> This is a quickie.

00:02:43   We talked about the last show, the old Mac way of doing menus in the menu bar, having

00:02:49   to hold down the mouse button and many people wrote in to tell me a thing that i guess they

00:02:54   think i didn't know but maybe other people don't know as well um that you can continue

00:02:59   to do that in case that wasn't clear from the discussion last show you can continue

00:03:03   to use the menus the old way because of course that way still works like it is it's kind

00:03:08   of a subset of the regular way so go try it right now if you want to feel like you're

00:03:12   living in the days before i'm gonna say mac os 8 mac os 7.6 i don't know if someone in

00:03:23   the chat room can look up when uh the mac operating system switched to the windows style

00:03:29   of clicking on menus and then they stay down but anyway the window i love the way you say

00:03:32   it the windows style it is i mean there's i mean i guess you could say it's an x windows

00:03:37   system style. Some X Windows manager probably did it before Windows and next probably did

00:03:43   it before Windows. I don't know. Anyway, it certainly wasn't the Mac style. The Mac style

00:03:46   was the Mac style from the very beginning. Anyway, you can continue to do it the old

00:03:50   way if you want to. Some people have continued to do it the old way. I thought I was going

00:03:54   to continue to do it the old way in the same way that I continue to remap Command+N to

00:03:58   create a new folder because, you know, I tried it the other way, didn't like it, some habits

00:04:02   die hard, but I totally switched to the Windows mouse technique way as soon as they added

00:04:09   it. Not by any conscious choice, it just happened and that's just the way it is. But some people

00:04:14   wrote in to say, "Hey, I'm still doing it the old way." So it works for some people.

00:04:18   So anyway, give it a try.

00:04:19   All right, so to keep with the theme, Jira Cox writes in and says, "I'm 33 and have

00:04:26   used most Macs since the PowerBook 160. I've never even heard of "floppy auto-inject."

00:04:33   When would you use that? So we talked about floppy auto-inject and eject last show. Floppy

00:04:40   auto-eject is pretty self-explanatory. Macs from the beginning could eject their own floppy

00:04:47   disk. There was no button that you would press to make the disk come out. Through software,

00:04:51   through the operating system, you would do something to make the disk be ejected, like

00:04:55   Select disk and select eject from the file menu or wherever the hell it was and

00:04:58   The disk would come popping out not all the way like in the Mac portable in space

00:05:03   shooting the disk out because we have gravity here and friction that caused by that gravity as the

00:05:08   floppy the floppy disk rubs against the lower parts of the apparatus, but anyway

00:05:13   It would shoot it out about halfway like kind of a tongue sticking out of your mouth and make this little noise

00:05:21   I've heard that noise and that is perfect. I heard that sound a lot

00:05:26   Having an original Macintosh with

00:05:30   one floppy drive

00:05:32   And so I would have you have the operating system on one floppy and then you'd have

00:05:36   the application and the data on the other floppy boot from the operating system floppy and

00:05:41   Then you reject that a ghost image of that disk would stay on your desktop

00:05:45   So the computer still knew that was there but you would you would eject it but not unmount it

00:05:49   Then you would stick in like say the Mac Paint floppy disk, which can contain Mac Paint plus

00:05:54   maybe five or ten of your own images, you know the app plus your files and

00:05:59   You'd have to do this floppy disk dance of operating system disk application disk

00:06:04   whenever the computer asked for it and the computer would ask for it by spitting out one disk and saying please insert the disk system

00:06:09   disk and you would

00:06:10   Take up whatever disk it just spit out and put the system disk in then it would ask for the application disk back and forth

00:06:14   And back and forth being able to do that

00:06:17   the floppy swap of taking out the one that it has auto ejected and

00:06:21   Putting in the other one with one hand was a very important skill for

00:06:25   Mac users of that because then you could have the mouse or the keyboard or be doing whatever and also be flopped at be

00:06:30   Swapping this bag of work. It got a little bit ridiculous at certain points. Anyway, that's auto eject

00:06:35   Auto-inject is the more subtle and therefore the more valuable

00:06:40   attribute of Mac floppy drives

00:06:44   Which was when you took a disc this had to do with the switching back and forth

00:06:48   Auto eject meant that you didn't have to like press a button like the disc was already there

00:06:52   You could just grab it an inch of the thing was already sticking out of the thing auto inject meant when you stuck a floppy

00:06:57   Disc in you wouldn't have to like you did on PC

00:07:00   shove the three and a half inch floppy all the way in like in and down kind of like a Nintendo cartridge right at an

00:07:06   ES cartridge like you didn't have to shove it all the way in and down right? It was so much work

00:07:11   Oh, it was just egregious Marco. Do you remember the pain we went through?

00:07:16   Yeah

00:07:16   What you would do instead is you you would push the the floppy disk in and just as you were getting toward

00:07:21   Sort of towards the end of the travel and the the the disk the edge of this would start to be flush with the edge

00:07:26   Of the case the drive would pull the disk out of your hand. It's a spring-loaded mechanism

00:07:30   It's not like it wasn't complicated. It would suck the disk in

00:07:33   So you just have to push it in and give it a little flick and it would go shrink and it would just stick in

00:07:37   by itself. So you didn't have to take the disc out yourself by pressing a button, and

00:07:42   you didn't have to shove the disc all the way in and down, it would pull the thing.

00:07:45   It's kind of like the Mercedes, whatever, auto soft closing car doors.

00:07:50   Yeah, soft close car doors. Yeah.

00:07:51   But it wasn't soft.

00:07:52   The Mercedes is not the only car that offers that feature.

00:07:54   I think they were the first one with the S-Class many, many years ago. But anyway, it was not

00:07:58   soft. This was a very, very hard ending. And since I had, you know, the only thing I had

00:08:03   used before the Mac were five and a quarter floppies which you know you just slide in

00:08:07   and turn that little knob thingy down right there's no they didn't go in and down they

00:08:11   just slid directly in and they were actually floppy right so I had never used a three and

00:08:16   a half inch floppy that wasn't an auto inject and eject until like the first time like I

00:08:20   encountered a PC that used them maybe it was like the ps2 or whatever whenever PC makers

00:08:25   finally started bundling three and a half inch drives and it was just so gross because

00:08:30   you know you got the wait for the light to stop blinking and press the eject button and

00:08:33   across your fingers that on the AJAX side and on the inject side I would push

00:08:36   the disk in and it would just come bouncing back at me. I was like is this thing

00:08:39   broken pushed in I just came as bouncing back like no you have to shove it all

00:08:43   the way in anyway that's auto inject and it was awesome. I love that we've become

00:08:47   like the podcast all about USB ports and floppy drives. That's the most important

00:08:52   parts of computing the most relevant for today's audience. Do you know when when

00:08:57   you see a BMW driver on the road and they're driving aggressively not using

00:09:02   their turn signals and just generally living up to the BMW stereotype. You know that moment

00:09:07   where you're like, "You know what? Yeah, those are jerks." Well, then you hear John Siracusa

00:09:13   talk about how egregious it was to use a PC floppy disk drive back in the '90s and you

00:09:18   think, "Yeah, those Mac guys, they were kind of obnoxious about the Mac."

00:09:22   Well, it's hard not to be obnoxious when you have something so much better that says it's

00:09:26   worse. You know how it is.

00:09:28   My eyes just rolled right the hell out of my head.

00:09:31   The thing about auto-inject and eject though is like,

00:09:34   these are, you know, Apple didn't make these drives.

00:09:36   Like they're sourced from Sony or whoever makes them, right?

00:09:38   Every PC vendor could have had auto-eject and inject.

00:09:41   The eject part was you needed OS support for that

00:09:44   because that was just a philosophical

00:09:45   and technical difference of like,

00:09:46   does the OS manage when the disc is unmounted

00:09:48   or does the user manage it?

00:09:49   And you know what Microsoft chose there.

00:09:51   But auto-inject could have been added to PCs

00:09:53   and probably was on a bunch of PCs.

00:09:56   It's just that PC makers, you know,

00:09:58   ever pinched in those pennies would not spend two cents

00:10:01   to add a feature like that, which in the days of swapping floppy disks was a huge quality

00:10:06   of life difference, but there's no way they would buy the fancier drive that would do

00:10:09   that because everything had to be as cheap as possible. That's why PCs suck.

00:10:13   -Oh my god.

00:10:15   -I gotta say, you know I'm a sucker for any kind of cool, fancy little luxury feature,

00:10:22   but auto-inject and eject just never crossed that barrier for me where both the hassle

00:10:30   of pushing a floppy disk into the drive

00:10:34   and pushing a small button to eject it

00:10:36   was never a big deal to me.

00:10:38   And then having it be entirely software-based

00:10:41   and having to do software ejects on the Mac

00:10:44   always was more of a hindrance to me.

00:10:47   And I recognize things like,

00:10:49   you mentioned about unmounting the disk.

00:10:52   I recognize why it's useful to have that be software-driven

00:10:55   or have software be involved.

00:10:57   but the fact is that it's worse as a user

00:11:01   to have that be software-based

00:11:03   and then have all these additional parts

00:11:05   that could fail in the drive.

00:11:06   - The drives did not fail, first of all.

00:11:09   Someone asked that in the thing.

00:11:10   No, they did not fail.

00:11:11   In my entire life of Macs with floppy drives,

00:11:13   not a single one ever failed in any way.

00:11:16   No part of it.

00:11:17   Inject, eject, the reading,

00:11:18   no part of the drive ever failed.

00:11:21   I had a lot of Macs with floppy drives.

00:11:22   - I'm curious to know whether on a large scale

00:11:26   there was a meaningful difference in failure rates.

00:11:29   - I feel like my lifetime usage of Macs

00:11:32   represents a large scale.

00:11:33   - It probably does.

00:11:34   (laughing)

00:11:35   But like, I've never heard of a PC floppy drive failing.

00:11:38   Never.

00:11:38   - Yeah, I mean, I think it's just a generally reliable thing.

00:11:41   Like, I'm not saying the non-auto injector eject won't fail,

00:11:43   too, I just think it's a very, very chunky, reliable PC.

00:11:47   And they got so much use, I mean, you know,

00:11:48   it was like swapping floppy disks.

00:11:50   They were pretty solid.

00:11:52   - Moving on.

00:11:55   Lewis Garberg writes in to say that, I guess we as in Apple considered naming the daemon

00:12:02   for this is DYLD.

00:12:05   We considered naming the daemon DYLDD for a while, but settled on closure D. Naming

00:12:11   is one of the hardest problems in CS.

00:12:13   He's the one who gave the presentation or part of the presentation on DYLD3 at WWDC.

00:12:18   I think his last name is Gerbarg.

00:12:20   My apologies.

00:12:21   Sorry.

00:12:22   Anyway, you can watch the presentation and see and/or hear him.

00:12:25   I forget if he appears in the video.

00:12:27   But yeah, D.O.A.L.D.D. was on the table.

00:12:29   Sadly not chosen.

00:12:30   Why is that so sad?

00:12:33   Because it would have been funny.

00:12:35   Alright, Jon, why don't you cover this next piece of follow-up for me?

00:12:39   He is another difficult name.

00:12:40   You're trying to give me a different answer?

00:12:42   I can't pronounce the first name.

00:12:44   This is a problem.

00:12:45   I'm going to go with Yuba.

00:12:46   Anyway, this is someone linking to a blog post.

00:12:50   I'm assuming this person works at Automattic, the company that...

00:12:54   Is it the same company that makes the box that you put in the old Dirty Bastard port

00:12:58   on your cars?

00:12:59   You don't even try to say his name?

00:13:02   I let Casey do it.

00:13:09   It's probably something like Luba Milkovic.

00:13:11   Wow, that was pretty good.

00:13:14   That was pretty good.

00:13:15   Did you cheat with the internet?

00:13:16   No, I'm just guessing.

00:13:17   Alright.

00:13:18   I'm impressed.

00:13:19   Maybe it wasn't pretty good.

00:13:20   Anyway, this was-- I'm sorry, I apologize.

00:13:23   This thing was added while those two

00:13:26   were talking on the live streams.

00:13:27   I'm a little bit behind in show notes today.

00:13:30   I talked about automatic, how they just cut their iOS apps

00:13:33   launch time in half.

00:13:35   And how did they do it?

00:13:36   Obviously, DOL D3 isn't out for everybody yet.

00:13:39   They're talking about their existing iOS app.

00:13:42   They did it the old fashioned way,

00:13:43   based on some advice they got from a WWC 2016 talk.

00:13:46   It's like, hey, if your app is taking a long time to launch

00:13:49   and you use a lot of dynamic libraries,

00:13:51   actually you may be spending a lot of your time

00:13:53   in the whole part that happens before the main is called,

00:13:57   where it figures out all the dynamic libraries

00:13:59   and loads them and loads all their symbols

00:14:01   and does all the code signature verification,

00:14:04   all sorts of other stuff that happens

00:14:05   before your code even begins executing.

00:14:08   And to avoid that, you can take all that stuff

00:14:11   and compile it into one giant static framework

00:14:13   that's a part of your executable

00:14:14   and you can skip all those steps.

00:14:16   And that's exactly what they did,

00:14:17   which is not really what you probably want to do,

00:14:19   because it's convenient from both a development perspective

00:14:24   and also obviously when you're dynamically

00:14:25   linking to system libraries, it's necessary

00:14:28   to not have everything compiled into a giant static binary.

00:14:31   And so they talk about in this blog post

00:14:33   what they had to do to make that happen.

00:14:35   It will be better if they can say,

00:14:37   oh, we don't have all this hack that we did

00:14:38   to put everything into one giant static library.

00:14:40   We don't have to do that anymore in iOS 11

00:14:42   because ClosureD, not D-O-A-L-D-D,

00:14:46   will do all this caching for us and instead on startup,

00:14:49   on the second time we start, we'll just say,

00:14:51   we'll just ask Clojure to be,

00:14:52   hey, do you do all that lookup stuff for us?

00:14:54   Good, just give us the answers

00:14:55   and then we'll continue from there.

00:14:57   But either way, it's an interesting blog post.

00:14:58   We will link it in the show notes.

00:14:59   And they break it down into like how much time was spent

00:15:03   doing dynamic library loading, rebasing and binding

00:15:07   for all the addresses and everything.

00:15:09   And then they have an other category

00:15:10   and you can see how they cut it down.

00:15:12   So people are trying to,

00:15:14   - I guess I maybe underestimated exactly how much time

00:15:17   is spent in the dynamic linker

00:15:18   for large complicated applications

00:15:20   versus how much time is spent like in your application,

00:15:23   launching, loading, all sorts of resources

00:15:25   and other things like that.

00:15:27   - All right, Walter writes in,

00:15:28   "Any ideas how Apple will handle the transition

00:15:31   to new file formats on older Macs

00:15:32   that don't support hardware encoding and decoding of H.265?

00:15:36   What will happen with users who have a mixture

00:15:38   of old and new devices, like a brand new iPhone

00:15:41   and a four-year-old Mac?"

00:15:42   How's that gonna work?

00:15:44   Well, we already have some indication of this,

00:15:46   because if you happen to have installed the beta

00:15:48   on your phone, and have taken any pictures with your phone,

00:15:52   and you don't have the beta on your Mac of, hi Sierra,

00:15:55   then you can see what happens in the Photos app,

00:15:59   where it actually is handled somewhat gracefully.

00:16:02   It downloads the Heif version as the photo,

00:16:05   and it's able to show you a render of it as a JPEG

00:16:08   in some kind of fallback mode,

00:16:10   but if it's a live photo, it can't play it,

00:16:12   and if you try to export the original

00:16:15   or do any kind of meaningful operation on it,

00:16:17   it says something on the lines of,

00:16:18   the full resolution version of this

00:16:20   is in a format that isn't supported.

00:16:22   So it actually does, it has all these heat files

00:16:26   sitting there that are being sent over

00:16:27   from the phone running on iOS 11,

00:16:28   but the Mac Photos app on whatever version I'm running,

00:16:32   that's not, hi Sierra, what is this?

00:16:34   Regular Sierra.

00:16:35   I lose track. - Hello Sierra.

00:16:38   - Now that they're changing names every year, I lose track.

00:16:40   I like forget entire mountains and stuff.

00:16:43   But anyway, so that's how they're doing it so far.

00:16:47   We'll see, like, they try to be smart about things

00:16:50   like in share sheets in iOS, like they'll share out a JPEG

00:16:54   or they'll share out, you know, presumably for video,

00:16:56   they'll probably share out an H.264 MP4 file

00:16:59   or something like that.

00:17:00   So they're trying to be smart about it,

00:17:01   but in certain places, it's just gonna,

00:17:04   if you have some devices that are upgraded

00:17:06   and some that aren't, it's just gonna be little bumps

00:17:08   in the road like this.

00:17:09   I think you can't actually export H.265.

00:17:12   I remember one of the sessions talking about that,

00:17:13   like your export options, if you use their framework,

00:17:16   the only option is H.264.

00:17:18   Like that's a subtle way of encouraging you,

00:17:20   hey, if you're about to share this out somewhere,

00:17:22   don't even try to do H.265.

00:17:25   This question though is specifically about Macs

00:17:27   that don't support hardware encoding, decoding of H.265.

00:17:30   What will they do?

00:17:31   Well, we've seen this before with Macs

00:17:34   that didn't support hardware encoding, decoding of H.264

00:17:37   back when that was a thing,

00:17:38   because most of them do these days,

00:17:40   but a long time ago they didn't.

00:17:42   And same thing happens with every video codec,

00:17:44   whether it's, what was the one that,

00:17:46   what was the cool one in the era of the blue and white G3,

00:17:51   the cool video codec?

00:17:52   - DivX?

00:17:53   - No, no, like the QuickTime one.

00:17:54   Like QuickTime always had a choice of like

00:17:56   which codecs you want and they would add new ones.

00:17:58   - Oh yeah, it was called Mav.

00:17:59   (laughs)

00:18:02   - Come on.

00:18:03   Oh, this is gonna kill me.

00:18:05   - I mean, MPEG-4 is pretty old.

00:18:07   Like before H.264, there was regular MPEG-4 video.

00:18:11   - I know, I know, it's not what I'm thinking of.

00:18:13   It was a codec that Apple was really excited about

00:18:18   and would promote as their fancy,

00:18:22   Sorenson, there we go, someone got it finally.

00:18:24   Anyway, back when Sorenson came out,

00:18:27   it's like what if my, or you know,

00:18:28   H.264 is a better example

00:18:29   'cause that is hardware support for that.

00:18:30   What if you can't support it?

00:18:31   Well, your video playback is choppy

00:18:33   or you can't play it at all worth a damn.

00:18:35   like it, you know, it will fall back to software.

00:18:38   So for H.265, Apple is supporting decoding

00:18:41   on like every Mac they sell, obviously,

00:18:44   and lots of old Macs too.

00:18:45   And there is a software fallback if you don't have hardware

00:18:48   'cause a lot of Macs don't have hardware,

00:18:49   in fact, most Macs don't have hardware for it.

00:18:51   And will the software fallback could be fast enough?

00:18:54   You can find out now, go find an H.265 movie

00:18:56   in MKV, you know, format off the back of whatever truck

00:19:00   you want to find it on and try to play it.

00:19:03   And if it is reasonable resolution and you play it in like M-Play or X for Mac or whatever,

00:19:08   it'll play fine.

00:19:09   But you'll find one that's like 4K or even in some things 1080p and you'll try to play

00:19:14   it in M-Player or VLC or whatever and it will be choppy and it will drop frames and it will

00:19:19   be crappy.

00:19:22   But in general, I think their Apple software implementation of H.265 encoding and decoding

00:19:28   will be just fine for any reasonably modern Mac.

00:19:31   just like the H.264 changeover did leave behind some Macs that could play MPEG-4 video perfectly

00:19:38   fine in the days before or MPEG-2 or whatever, and had trouble with H.264 without any hardware

00:19:44   to help it out for really big videos, that will happen, but it will be fine.

00:19:48   I wouldn't be worried about this.

00:19:50   If you don't remember the super painful transition to H.264, you also won't remember the super

00:19:56   painful transition to H.265.

00:19:57   If anything, the H.265 transition will be easier because I think we'll see the hardware

00:20:00   support for it come online sooner because a lot of it is a lot of the hardware that's used to do it

00:20:06   is similar enough to h.265 decoding that we already have close analogs to it so I think

00:20:11   the hardware vendors won't it won't be too painful to add the hardware to do h.265 decoding it's

00:20:16   already in the newer chips. Oh and related to this um similar questions that I didn't get a chance to

00:20:21   put in here a lot of people asked kind of what Marco was getting at for the heath stuff um

00:20:28   Actually, it's tangentially related.

00:20:30   Will they take all of my existing pictures on my phone,

00:20:33   for example, is a common question,

00:20:35   and convert them all to Heif to save space, right?

00:20:39   'Cause I've got, you know,

00:20:40   I've got a hundred thousand pictures or whatever.

00:20:41   I've had an iPhone since day one.

00:20:43   They took all these pictures, they're JPEGs.

00:20:45   Heif is supposed to be half the size.

00:20:47   Will Apple convert them all?

00:20:49   I'm almost 100% sure the answer to that is no, they won't,

00:20:51   because there would be a quality loss.

00:20:53   Now that doesn't mean could Apple convert them all,

00:20:55   or could there be a way for you to convert them all?

00:20:57   Of course, yeah, I mean, they're your photos.

00:20:59   You could convert them all.

00:21:00   You could buy a third-party program to convert them all

00:21:03   and delete the JPEGs or whatever.

00:21:05   I don't think this is a feature that Apple will add,

00:21:07   but they could.

00:21:08   They could have a big button in iCloud that says,

00:21:09   "Hey, take all my JPEGs and convert them,

00:21:12   "and I'll accept the quality loss,"

00:21:13   which probably won't be that big a deal,

00:21:15   to get the space settings or whatever.

00:21:18   But I really don't think they'll do that

00:21:19   because converting a giant library

00:21:22   would take a really long time,

00:21:23   unless they did it server-side, which is not Apple's forte,

00:21:26   and you will lose quality on them.

00:21:28   And there's lots of things having to do with losing edits

00:21:30   and other type of things in lossy ways.

00:21:33   Like it's basically a destructive operation.

00:21:34   Converting JPEGs to Heif would be,

00:21:39   if you want to get space savings out of them,

00:21:40   would be destructive

00:21:41   because you're taking a lossy compressed format

00:21:43   and you're doing another lossy compression on top of it.

00:21:45   And even if you think you won't notice any difference

00:21:49   or whatever, and you're desperate to save the space,

00:21:51   you'd be way better off for both your sanity

00:21:53   and like tech-wise to just get a phone with more space on it

00:21:57   than to try to convert all of your things.

00:21:59   So I don't recommend that

00:22:00   and I don't think Apple will do it.

00:22:02   But surely some third party will.

00:22:04   So if you're desperate to do it, you will be able to.

00:22:07   - Sebastian Krauss writes in to say,

00:22:09   "I think the reason why Apple's finally supporting

00:22:11   the Opus codec is that they've announced WebRTC support

00:22:14   for iOS 11 and Hi Sierra.

00:22:16   And Opus is one of the required codecs

00:22:18   that you have to support in WebRTC."

00:22:20   And Sebastian has provided a couple of links

00:22:22   which I put in the show notes.

00:22:23   This is also why I think that Opus will see

00:22:25   a very high adoption rate eventually,

00:22:26   because every device with a browser that supports WebRTC,

00:22:29   according to SPAC, also has to support Opus,

00:22:32   which was news to me, and I thought very interesting.

00:22:34   - Yeah, this is news to me too,

00:22:35   and this is very promising, because again,

00:22:38   as much as you know that I'm a huge fan of MP3,

00:22:42   the fact is it would be nice to have a more modern codec

00:22:45   that was as widely supported as MP3,

00:22:48   and was unencumbered, as far as we know, by patents.

00:22:52   And that's what Opus is, and that it would be wonderful

00:22:55   if Opus had widespread support,

00:22:57   because it is so much better than MP3 at lower bit rates,

00:23:01   that there really are a lot of good uses for it,

00:23:03   and it really might be worth developing standards

00:23:08   for things like podcasters to be able to offer

00:23:11   multiple versions of the same file in a reasonable way

00:23:13   and have that supported by the tooling

00:23:14   and the hosting and everything else.

00:23:16   So if Opus can be more widely supported,

00:23:19   it makes all of those things more worth doing.

00:23:23   And so I honestly don't know anything about WebRTC.

00:23:28   All I know is that it is potentially useful

00:23:31   for things like recording podcasts,

00:23:34   double-enders in browsers, and that's cool.

00:23:36   I don't know if I'd use that, but it's cool.

00:23:39   So I'm glad it's available.

00:23:40   So anyway, this is nice.

00:23:43   We'll see what happens.

00:23:45   I do still have reservations that I'm a little worried

00:23:48   about possible patent issues with using a free codec

00:23:52   that has not been under much patent scrutiny yet.

00:23:55   But it is a really good codec,

00:23:58   so any support for it is probably good.

00:24:02   - Listing support, making support for a codec mandatory

00:24:04   as part of a standard, it's good.

00:24:06   Like it's better than not doing that,

00:24:08   but it's not a guarantee that people will actually support it

00:24:10   especially if it's obscure.

00:24:12   People could say, oh, well, you know,

00:24:14   we have WebRTC support,

00:24:16   but don't bother with the Opus support

00:24:17   or like do a half-assed job of it

00:24:19   and don't really, you know, like,

00:24:20   'cause who uses Opus?

00:24:21   It's not a big deal.

00:24:23   There is no, no one's going to stop us

00:24:24   from shipping a web browser and claiming WebRTC support

00:24:28   when our Opus support is terrible or it crashes or is slow

00:24:31   or only half exists or, you know, whatever.

00:24:33   So these type of formats, all of them begin with O,

00:24:38   whether they be Ogg or Opus or whatever, Vorbis,

00:24:41   all this other stuff, WebM, all these supposedly patent-free

00:24:46   formats that are less popular because they don't have

00:24:49   some big corporation that's monetarily motivated

00:24:51   to spread them everywhere and put them,

00:24:53   and platform owners are less motivated to support them

00:24:56   because they have their own things that they wanna do.

00:24:59   It's always an uphill battle for them,

00:25:00   but putting support for it, mandatory support for it

00:25:03   in the spec certainly helps.

00:25:05   So we'll see how this shakes out.

00:25:06   Like Apple's Opus support,

00:25:08   like their limited support for Opus.

00:25:11   If we talk about this three years from now

00:25:13   and they still have limited support for Opus,

00:25:15   that's not a good sign.

00:25:16   Because it would show that they have--

00:25:20   WebRTC itself, they might decide,

00:25:21   is no one's using it, it's not that big a deal,

00:25:23   and the Safari team's priority should be elsewhere,

00:25:26   or the WebKit team's priority should be elsewhere,

00:25:27   so concentrate on other standards.

00:25:29   It takes a long time for something

00:25:31   to go from standards defined by a standards body

00:25:34   to being implemented widely enough in the browsers

00:25:37   that people use to actually be useful to people.

00:25:39   I mean, just look at CSS,

00:25:41   which I think was CSS1 was finalized in like 1996

00:25:45   or something, and we didn't get decent browser support

00:25:47   for many, many, many years, way too long.

00:25:50   And even when people were claiming CSS support,

00:25:53   it took them so long to actually pass,

00:25:56   like remember the original CSS1 acid test,

00:25:58   like do you actually comply with all the CSS1 specs?

00:26:01   Like, no, we just comply with the parts

00:26:03   that most websites use, isn't that enough?

00:26:05   And the answer is no, that wasn't enough,

00:26:07   but it took so long, so here's hoping Opus does better.

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00:28:08   Thank you very much to Fracture for sponsoring our show.

00:28:10   (upbeat music)

00:28:13   - One of you would like to talk about iOS 11 in use,

00:28:17   and I cannot because I have not installed it

00:28:18   on any of my devices because I am not a maniac.

00:28:21   And I am traveling later this summer,

00:28:23   and even on my iPad, which is the most non-essential

00:28:28   of non-essential devices, I don't want it to be on my iPad

00:28:32   until it is extremely stable.

00:28:33   So, speaking of me being quiet,

00:28:36   I am going to turn this over to Marco.

00:28:39   - Well, I didn't put this here, but--

00:28:41   - Sorry, just kidding.

00:28:43   - You think I add to the show notes, that's adorable.

00:28:45   - Fair enough.

00:28:46   - No, but I, so far, I have, I put iOS 11 on my iPad,

00:28:51   in the very first week, and I put it on my phone

00:28:54   with Beta 2, which was now about two weeks ago.

00:28:57   And so far, it's mostly good.

00:29:01   There are some things about it I'm not crazy about yet.

00:29:05   And I guess I'll start with the bad,

00:29:08   so I can end with the good.

00:29:09   Like a compliment sandwich in a big company.

00:29:11   I guess it's maybe an open-faced sandwich.

00:29:14   Anyway, I don't know.

00:29:15   Open-faced sandwiches are terrible.

00:29:17   But anyway, so I'm not crazy about the new

00:29:20   like giant text navigation bar style

00:29:23   that is in all the system maps and everything

00:29:26   with the big header and all that white space.

00:29:28   That's kind of weird.

00:29:29   I'm also, the multitasking stuff on the iPad takes some getting used to because it feels

00:29:36   like I have to do a lot more swipe gestures than before to set up apps, like in a multi-window

00:29:44   way. And some of those swipe tests, I just, maybe I just, because I haven't done them

00:29:49   enough, some of them don't make a lot of sense to me, like the way you have to like pull

00:29:55   up an app off the dock to create it and then you also have to then pull it again from this

00:30:00   little draggy handle to like stick it down. I don't love the way that flows. I'm also

00:30:07   not a huge fan at all of the new notification center. The way you have to like swipe it

00:30:15   down now, and this is on the phone, I think it's the same on the iPad but it's mainly

00:30:20   getting in my way on the phone. The fact that you have to swipe it down and then it looks

00:30:24   like your lock screen, even though it isn't your lock screen, and then you have to, in

00:30:28   order to see more notifications than like the first little bit, you have to swipe on

00:30:33   the screen again to then show like the all notifications view. I don't know why that

00:30:39   isn't just the first view. I don't know why the extra swipe is necessary. And it took

00:30:44   me a couple of days to even find that, and to find where is the clear all notifications

00:30:51   button. And so there's stuff that's now hidden behind these weird gestures that seem like

00:30:58   it's actually just more manual work than before for common tasks. So I don't love that. However,

00:31:06   other stuff in the OS seems great. On the multitasking side on the iPad, I'm just glad

00:31:11   they did so much. And some of it is not the way I would do it. The thing about how apps

00:31:16   are kind of fixed as their two-by-two or their two-at-a-time sets and you kind of can't mix

00:31:23   and match an app between different quote spaces. That whole thing's a little weird for me,

00:31:28   but I'm not an iPad power user. So it's not really getting in my way. iPad power users

00:31:34   who actually have better things to say about using the iPad in that way, people like Mike

00:31:39   and Vitici, Fraser Spears, they have more opinions on this and I suggest listening to

00:31:46   to all their shows, which you'll put in the show notes. They've been talking about this

00:31:49   a lot recently. And so, and their opinions seem to be fairly mixed on the thing as well

00:31:54   about how like everything is kind of like these groups are kind of fixed in these like

00:31:58   app pairs and an app can only be in one pair and you're always bringing up the same pair

00:32:01   of apps at a time. So there's things about it that are clunky, but it's really cool that

00:32:07   they're doing as much as they're doing and all that stuff I think is going to be way

00:32:11   better in time. Now the problem mainly though is that like with any iOS beta every summer,

00:32:19   most of the apps that we are using are not taking advantage of this because apps can't

00:32:24   ship versions to the app store that use iOS 11 APIs yet. Apple does not accept submissions

00:32:30   of apps built against the beta SDK. You have to wait for its release in the fall. So the

00:32:35   only way to run iOS 11 apps that actually use iOS 11 capabilities that aren't built

00:32:40   into the system to begin with is to get on developers test flight betas. And test flight

00:32:45   is wildly broken for most people on iOS 11. So that isn't happening very much as far

00:32:50   as I know. So there's a great bright future here of things like the new multitasking stuff,

00:32:57   the new files stuff, the new drag and drop stuff, and some of the new APIs that make

00:33:01   developers lives a lot easier and that lead to better things for users. There's a lot

00:33:05   of great stuff here, but most of it is still on the horizon. And on the phone, it makes

00:33:11   way less of a difference because most of the really big stuff that users can actually use

00:33:15   right now and start taking advantage of right now instead of waiting for the summer, waiting

00:33:21   for the fall when everyone's apps get updated, most of that stuff is -- there's more of that

00:33:25   stuff on the iPad than there is on the iPhone, and especially if you are an Apple Pencil

00:33:30   user and an Apple Notes user. So it's really cool for iPad power users and pencil and note

00:33:37   people. Everyone else, I feel like, I don't know, it's kind of a mixed bag for now.

00:33:42   >> John?

00:33:43   >> I think I put this in because I couldn't figure out multitasking on iOS 11, but it

00:33:48   turned out to just be a bug where it just wasn't working on my iPad. I mentioned it

00:33:51   last week that I was doing the things that you're supposed to do to combine apps into

00:33:56   sets and stuff and nothing was happening and I thought I was just crazy, but it was just

00:33:59   debug and restarting my iPad, fix it, whatever, it's a beta.

00:34:03   About the things that people can be complaining about, like the limitations of mixing and

00:34:07   matching applications and stuff, we're getting into some weird territory with kind of the

00:34:13   mental model of how things work on iOS.

00:34:17   The old model was so simple and so straightforward, like especially before multitasking, like

00:34:22   it was just such a solid mental model that it was obvious to anybody using it that like

00:34:28   When you hit the big the one and only big button on the face of your device you went back to

00:34:32   Springboard and that's where you saw all your applications and when you launch any application your entire phone became that application

00:34:39   Plus or minus the status bar which is small enough and

00:34:43   incorporated into the application enough that people didn't think of it the same way we think of the menu bar right and

00:34:48   If you wanted to do anything else you hit the home button again to go back to springboard and but that was it

00:34:53   That was the model, you know

00:34:55   Springboard application application springboard and obviously that's not viable for a sophisticated

00:35:00   workflow of any kind and so we had to leave that and multitasking came in and we had the multitasking switchers and

00:35:06   Now we've got this little floating don't call the window window things and combining multiple applications on the screen at the same time kind of a tiling

00:35:14   window manager, but the mental model is starting to

00:35:16   Break down and it like what is what is an iOS application in its running state? Is it just represented by a

00:35:25   a single rectangular region of the screen that it controls, and within that rectangle

00:35:30   there can be other floating rectangles, or like the model that a lot of heavy iOS users

00:35:35   are asking for, which seems reasonable to me but is super weird, is like, I have messages

00:35:40   alongside my text editor. I also want messages alongside my web browser. Why can't I have

00:35:47   two spaces or whatever, one of which is web browser and messages and one of which is my

00:35:52   text editor messages. It's like, well, you can't do that. You got to pick which one you

00:35:55   want messages next to. But if you did have it next to both of them, the easiest way to do it would be

00:36:00   like, all right, now it's next to both of them. But it's not two instances of messages. It's the

00:36:05   one and only rectangle of messages, right? And it's exactly the same between the two places,

00:36:09   presumably. Like this is the way they could implement it, right? And I think most people

00:36:13   would be fine with that. They don't think they have two separate copies of messages running. Like

00:36:17   one is signed into some different thing or whatever. It's like, this is just the one and

00:36:20   and only messages, but it appears in two places.

00:36:23   It's like having two copies of the,

00:36:25   well, the Finder does all the time,

00:36:26   two copies of the same window on your Mac.

00:36:29   Like this is literally the same window.

00:36:31   Anything you do in this window

00:36:33   exactly happens in real time in the other window.

00:36:35   Like you could move things around it

00:36:36   and they would move it,

00:36:37   because that would be the mental model.

00:36:38   The other possible model is,

00:36:40   no, you actually have two messages windows,

00:36:41   but now all of a sudden there are RAM implications

00:36:43   and application development implications.

00:36:44   Like, wait, how do I manage that?

00:36:46   Is my application in two states?

00:36:47   Does my application know it has two windows?

00:36:49   This is uncharted territory in terms of API and UI for iOS developers to handle this.

00:36:56   You might have multiple instances of you running, so I hope you can manage that internally with

00:37:00   the stuff that you're doing.

00:37:01   That's not how iOS applications work.

00:37:03   If they have multiple "windows" up, it's still within the one and only rectangle that is

00:37:07   owned by that application.

00:37:09   It's not like you have two totally divorced ones.

00:37:12   But both of those things I just described are pretty weird, both from a developer's

00:37:16   perspective and trying to explain them to a user.

00:37:18   I had the difficulty trying to explain them right now, and I don't know if I could explain

00:37:22   them to someone using the device, like this is how things work.

00:37:25   And yes, you don't have to worry about that.

00:37:27   I'm never going to do this thing where I split up my iPad screen.

00:37:29   I'm just going to treat it like my old iPad where you go to the home button and that's

00:37:33   good that iOS falls back to that model.

00:37:35   You don't know about any of this stuff, you know about swipes, you don't do them accidentally,

00:37:38   use it just like the old iPad.

00:37:40   Application home, application home.

00:37:41   It's inefficient, but you can stick with that model.

00:37:44   if they're going to try to expand iOS with most guessing as they should to become more sophisticated

00:37:50   There should be some kind of coherent explainable model

00:37:54   for how things work and I don't think Apple has quite hit on that yet as

00:37:59   evidenced by like the the immediate reaction of people who are every iOS user like oh, this is great, but

00:38:04   Here are a couple scenarios that are not possible within this current paradigm

00:38:09   And everyone is mostly just so jazzed to have a new paradigm to even talk about that

00:38:13   You know, this is the honeymoon period but I think eventually a year or two from now

00:38:17   Apple will have to continue thinking about this and say or how do we address that?

00:38:21   Is there is there a new mental model for rectangles in iOS and how they relate to applications?

00:38:28   that is

00:38:30   Understandable and also useful and generic in the same way

00:38:34   That the you know the window implicit

00:38:39   Windows input mouse pointer. What does wimp stand for I forget anyway the traditional, you know Mac user interface

00:38:44   The windows style user interface for PCs that everyone is used to and a lot of things you talked about marker with like the edge

00:38:52   Swiping and how notification center works and all the weird gestures or whatever like all that is made necessary

00:38:57   By the simplified iOS interface that doesn't have essentially Chrome. There's no menu bar. There's no title bars

00:39:03   there's no scroll bars and that that's an advantage of iOS, but

00:39:07   the way PC operating systems get around all these things is

00:39:11   You don't have to know any weird gestures if you want. I mean just look at this on like notification center on the Mac

00:39:18   It's an icon in the menu bar

00:39:20   It has a privileged place in the menu

00:39:22   But then but the menu bar is always there and an icon is the thing you can bring a cursor over and it's like there's

00:39:26   Always visible interface element and it slides in from the right

00:39:29   It's very much like an iOS interface element

00:39:31   But you deal with it like a Mac interface element

00:39:34   Even though you can't actually slide it with two fingers or whatever to make it appear on the Mac

00:39:37   There's a place for visible UI to be for all this stuff.

00:39:41   That's what window Chrome is.

00:39:42   That's what, you know, I mean,

00:39:43   they kind of went a little in that direction

00:39:45   by bringing tabs to iOS, where Safari has actual tabs.

00:39:48   Like where, that was kind of weird.

00:39:49   Like where did that come from?

00:39:50   There's no title bars or scroll bars

00:39:52   or window widgets or menu bar, but guess what?

00:39:54   Tabs appear and they turn out to be great.

00:39:55   So maybe, maybe some Chrome will start creeping

00:39:59   into iOS as a solution.

00:40:01   And we kind of do it with the status bar too.

00:40:02   Hey, you want to zoom to the top of a really long document?

00:40:05   You can tap the status bar,

00:40:06   which we cheat and decide is a giant button in most scenarios because it's convenient

00:40:10   to have a thing that you can press that's on the screen that does an operation.

00:40:14   So I'm keeping an eye out.

00:40:15   That's a lot of talking for a topic that was really based on a bug, but I am using iOS

00:40:20   11.

00:40:21   I'm using iOS 11 on my iPad, and I am using the multitasking features, and I'm hitting

00:40:25   a lot of the same pain points, albeit to a much lesser degree, as all of the super heavy

00:40:31   iOS users.

00:40:32   Because, you know, I mean, I think about this.

00:40:33   I was thinking about this when I was listening to one of those podcasts.

00:40:35   while using my iPad.

00:40:36   I'm like, people think of me as a big Mac head

00:40:40   and I do love my Mac and it is the thing

00:40:42   that I care about the most.

00:40:43   But on a day-to-day basis, I forget about my phone.

00:40:47   I spend more time with my iPad than my Mac, easy.

00:40:51   When I'm not at work.

00:40:51   When I'm at work, obviously that's not true.

00:40:53   When I'm at work, it's, you know,

00:40:54   I've sit in front of the Mac all day.

00:40:55   But when I'm not at work, like on weekends,

00:40:58   I use my iPad way more than my Mac

00:41:00   and my phone probably more than my iPad.

00:41:02   I think it's just everyone's reality these days.

00:41:06   So I'm not, even though I'm not a heavy iOS user and that I need to use it for my work

00:41:12   and I'm annoyed if this thing interferes with my ability to perform sophisticated tasks,

00:41:16   I do spend a hell of a lot of time in it.

00:41:17   And as someone well versed in the ways of the Mac and PC style operating systems, I

00:41:23   do feel those limitations.

00:41:24   Actually, and a little bit of a tangent on that note.

00:41:28   One of the reasons why I am pushing myself to try to do more on the iPad is because if

00:41:36   I can set things up in such a way that I can get more of my work done on an iPad, that

00:41:42   also probably means that I can get more of my work done on my iPhone.

00:41:46   And my phone is always with me.

00:41:49   I'm always given chances where I could use it where I wouldn't have a chance to use my

00:41:54   computer.

00:41:55   And so anything I do to benefit my iPad working life will almost certainly help my iPhone

00:42:01   working life, which will help my working life regardless of what I think of the iPad.

00:42:05   So if you are a mostly or entirely Mac head like Jon or I or Casey, that is one reason

00:42:15   to investigate productive options for yourself on the iPad is that it will help you in general

00:42:22   on your phone too.

00:42:23   One other item I had on iOS 11 that has been not a stumbling block, but one of the things

00:42:30   that I felt most immediately and continue to feel is the keyboard, the new keyboard

00:42:34   on iOS 11.

00:42:35   And it's mostly just muscle memory, because using iOS keyboards for so long I've become

00:42:39   accustomed to where things are, especially like when you type your passwords and stuff,

00:42:44   you kind of memorize the pattern of where things are, right, on an iOS keyboard, like

00:42:49   the way you, you know, like, and they move stuff around, the iOS 11 keyboard.

00:42:53   They moved lots of stuff around, like punctuation characters and how you get at special characters.

00:42:59   And the flick thing where you can get to the number symbol, you don't have to switch the

00:43:05   entire keyboard into number mode, the little number is grayed out above one of the letters,

00:43:10   like 1 over the Q or whatever the hell it is, I don't have an iOS 11 device in front

00:43:13   of me.

00:43:14   And you can get to that by putting your finger on the key that you're going to hit and instead

00:43:19   Instead of picking it up, slide it downward and as you do that, the higher item on the

00:43:26   key like slides down and becomes bold to indicate if you were to release now, you would get

00:43:31   a one instead of a letter and then you release.

00:43:33   When I first saw that feature described in WWDC, I thought it meant flick up.

00:43:39   So as soon as I first installed iOS 11 and I saw this keyboard, I'm flicking up on all

00:43:43   the keys and it's not doing anything.

00:43:45   It's flicked down.

00:43:46   And I think that probably makes more sense because as you slide down you can see the key cap changing of what you know

00:43:52   What you're gonna get at least I'm again I'm doing on the iPad. I don't know what it does in the phone

00:43:55   So I do like the flicking things, but I cannot find the - for the life of me

00:44:00   I'm like what the hell I end up

00:44:01   I'm already switched into punctuation mode and then I can't find the - I need to just not switch into punctuation mode and like pull

00:44:07   down on the X or wherever the hell it is now and

00:44:09   I thought I would have remapped but I guess using my iPhone which is still on iOS 10

00:44:15   It's not allowing me to remap. So I would say that uh

00:44:18   for all the people who haven't tried iOS 11

00:44:21   Be warned that adjusting to the new keyboard might take a little doing

00:44:27   I just can't wait until all my devices are iOS 11 because then I can just convert and just forget the old keyboard because the new

00:44:32   Keyboard is better. I really do like the flicking

00:44:34   I just need to break myself of these old stupid habits of like having to switch modes, right?

00:44:38   It's much better to just remember all the flick things aren't flicked them. That's great. I

00:44:44   I still haven't used it, like I said, so I'm looking forward to it.

00:44:47   And I think once my beach trip in August is over, I will absolutely put whatever the latest

00:44:53   beta is on my iPad.

00:44:55   But I am not touching my phone with this thing until it's done-done, and I don't want to

00:45:00   touch my iPad with it until I'm done traveling.

00:45:01   Why don't you put it on your iPad now?

00:45:03   It's perfectly safe for iPads.

00:45:05   Yeah, and you hate your iPad.

00:45:07   I don't hate my iPad.

00:45:08   That is fake news.

00:45:09   Fake news.

00:45:10   I don't hate my iPad.

00:45:12   I just don't love it as much as I used to.

00:45:15   I don't know, because when you go to the beach, as I'm doing at some point in August, you

00:45:21   never know what the internet situation is.

00:45:23   And in all likelihood, if there isn't internet in the house, I will be able to tether off

00:45:27   my phone.

00:45:28   But I like having the backup of my iPad, which is on a different network.

00:45:32   And thus, I don't want to mess with anything just to be safe.

00:45:35   Although the last time I heard a podcaster talk about this, it was Mike Hurley, and he

00:45:38   he lasted approximately three seconds before he caved

00:45:41   and put iOS 11 on one of his 17 iPads.

00:45:44   So it's probably gonna end up happening

00:45:46   before I go on this trip in August, but we'll see.

00:45:48   - Well, but, and like, you know, people like Mike,

00:45:50   like these iPad power users, they were like desperate

00:45:53   for Apple to show any kind of, you know,

00:45:55   it's like if Apple released the new Mac Pro

00:45:58   in an early beta tomorrow, and they said,

00:46:00   all right, you can buy it now,

00:46:02   but you'll have to reboot it once a day.

00:46:04   I would buy it in a heartbeat. (laughs)

00:46:07   Even though, 'cause I just want a Mac Pro again so badly.

00:46:11   I would jump on that.

00:46:13   - Marco, if you want it that bad,

00:46:15   I can stick a sticker on your iMac

00:46:17   and have it say Mac Pro.

00:46:19   Or I can give it, you know what I'll do?

00:46:20   I'll buy you a trash can and put some ports on the back

00:46:24   and write new Mac Pro on the front of it

00:46:27   and you'll never know the difference.

00:46:28   It'll probably be just as quick too.

00:46:30   - I could probably just take a small amount of tape

00:46:32   onto my MacBook Pro and cover up the book.

00:46:36   - There we go. - Call it a day.

00:46:37   - New Mac Pro.

00:46:39   Happens to be portable.

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00:48:20   (upbeat music)

00:48:22   - All right, so let's talk about iPhone rumors.

00:48:25   This is the time of year where everything seems to amp up and the rumor mill seems to

00:48:31   get ever more aggressive.

00:48:33   And in the last few days as we record this, we're recording it on Wednesday the 5th, there's

00:48:38   been some more rumors, particularly around Touch ID.

00:48:42   There's been a lot of waffling, which Marco doesn't know anything about, about whether

00:48:45   or not there will be Touch ID.

00:48:46   Where will it be?

00:48:47   Will it be on the front?

00:48:48   Under the screen?

00:48:49   Will it be on the front in the chin?

00:48:50   Will it be on the back?

00:48:51   angry are all the Apple users going to be if it's on the back and

00:48:55   Or will it maybe not exist at all?

00:48:58   So Min-Chi Kuo has said on the new iPhone that has OLED which is everyone is assuming is going to be called iPhone Pro

00:49:06   They're saying that it there will not be any touch ID at all

00:49:11   And instead it will use some sort of face detection including depth mapping in order to authenticate you.

00:49:20   Don't know how I feel about this my initial reaction is no that's garbage my second reaction is

00:49:26   Well if Apple was gonna ship it. I'm sure it'll be fine

00:49:31   And my third reaction is basically the entirety of this week's connected

00:49:35   Where they went through this this this face detection thing

00:49:40   And I think all three of them kind of went through all five stages of what is it?

00:49:45   Grief right it really was exactly that

00:49:49   They went through all the like everything from like you know like the anger and all that eventually to the acceptance like oh

00:49:55   I guess this might be better

00:49:56   A whole show on it, but did anybody say my face is my passport verify me yeah nicely done

00:50:02   Nicely done. They didn't say that come on. No. I don't think so

00:50:06   Mike in the movies yes remember that Mike hated that movie Motti I

00:50:10   Know it's terrible. It's a well the movie isn't terrible. It's terrible that Mike hated it. It's great

00:50:15   - All right, well, I didn't hear that episode,

00:50:18   but I thought this was, I mean, I don't know.

00:50:20   We're still, I think we're far enough out now

00:50:22   that these rumors about what will or won't be on this phone

00:50:26   are still mixed up.

00:50:28   As Gruber pointed out this week,

00:50:30   like pretty sure Apple knows what's gonna be on this phone

00:50:33   at this point, but we don't know exactly

00:50:35   what's gonna be on it.

00:50:36   And so this is what's in the mix.

00:50:38   We had a whole show where we talked about

00:50:39   the fingerprint scanner on the back

00:50:40   and the difficulty of putting it on the front.

00:50:43   Everyone seems to agree that the whole front of this phone

00:50:45   is going to be mostly screen so there's no room for an actual home button, even a home

00:50:49   button that doesn't move like the ones on our current, you know, the iPhone 7.

00:50:54   So it's like, well, if they can't do a fingerprint scanner on the screen, they'll do it on the

00:50:58   back, but here are the problems with the ones on the back, but Android has them on the back,

00:51:02   and it's fine.

00:51:03   Again, we have that whole show on that topic.

00:51:04   This is the new twist.

00:51:05   Oh, never mind that fingerprint stuff, that's passé, it's just going to scan your face.

00:51:11   And this seems like a lot of confusion in a short period of time about how we're going

00:51:18   to unlock our phones.

00:51:19   So from our perspective on the outside of people trying to leak things and rumors cycling

00:51:25   through, surely we are getting these rumors like a six month to a year delay of things

00:51:33   that Apple has considered and investigated for the upcoming iPhone.

00:51:37   Apple has picked something and we'll find out when they introduce their phone

00:51:41   It's just weird that

00:51:44   None of the rumors so far

00:51:46   Present a

00:51:50   Product that we all agree that will be awesome and I can't wait to have it. All of them are like hmm

00:51:56   well

00:51:57   You know like like we when we talked about the fingerprint thing at the back

00:52:01   or USB C on the bottom like

00:52:04   You think about it and it seems kind of weird and there's always some downside and you're not sure and there could be cool upsides

00:52:11   but it's a

00:52:13   to the point where

00:52:15   Several times over the past few months. I found myself thinking why are we doing?

00:52:19   All screen on the front of the phone again

00:52:23   like remind me again what we're getting out of this because there's a lot of difficulties and you know

00:52:28   Apple is giving themselves lots of challenges, right?

00:52:31   and

00:52:34   What we heard about this, you know, the OLED all-screen phone for many years was like, oh it didn't make it this year

00:52:40   Because they couldn't they couldn't sort this stuff out, right?

00:52:43   And so the Apple won't release this until they come up with a way to do this

00:52:47   And I think you know the iPhone 7 year was like, oh this was gonna be the year for the all-screen phone

00:52:51   Nope, never mind

00:52:53   It's actually you know

00:52:54   They couldn't do it and they couldn't get the fingerprint scanner to work through the thing

00:52:57   They couldn't get the camera to work through the screen

00:52:59   You know, whatever the rumor excuse was it's not ready yet, right?

00:53:04   But everyone seems to say this is the year the OLED all-screen phone is gonna come out

00:53:09   And we're all waiting to see okay. How did Apple solve all those problems and every potentially rumored solution

00:53:16   Seems weird the face recognition one seems

00:53:19   The most appley to me because it's kind of like cutting the Gordian knot of having to touch your body to something to unlock your phone

00:53:27   It's like nope. Nope. Don't worry about the touching. Don't worry about it all not on the front of the screen

00:53:31   Not on the back it will you know will just happen like magic

00:53:34   it'll read your face and by the way, the same depth sensors can be used for the

00:53:37   Fake background blur effect too. So we you know, we put the hardware in there and it's great

00:53:44   And we'll use it for all this and it's better than a fingerprint because it has more points of recognition and so on and so

00:53:50   forth

00:53:52   But

00:53:53   You know again, I didn't listen to the podcast you were referring to but I I kind of feel the same

00:53:58   the same trepidation about

00:54:01   About it something that requires line of sight like that

00:54:05   I mean that's what everyone immediately thinks about is like what about all the times?

00:54:08   I unlock my phone when it can't see my face and all the rumors like don't worry when it's laying on the table

00:54:13   It'll still be able to see your face. It's got a real big wide-angle lens on it

00:54:16   It'll pick up your face and you know, all right, then you're like well

00:54:18   What about when I when I exist near the phone, but I don't want it to unlock based on my face

00:54:23   So don't worry, you'll have to hit a button.

00:54:25   You'll have to hit a button

00:54:26   and then it will do recognition or whatever.

00:54:28   Like these are all things

00:54:30   where you want the Apple magic to come in.

00:54:32   Like just like Touch ID seemed like a thing

00:54:34   that would be terrible and not work.

00:54:35   And Apple, I'd say pretty much hit it out of the park

00:54:37   with Touch ID.

00:54:38   Like it was, if you told us about Touch ID,

00:54:41   like when you read the rumors, you'd be like,

00:54:42   that could be cool,

00:54:43   but I've never seen that work really well.

00:54:46   And guess what?

00:54:47   Apple made it work really well.

00:54:48   And then they fixed it again and made it work even better.

00:54:50   I love Touch ID.

00:54:51   I think I said in the year we were talking about our favorite tech products that the

00:54:55   iPhone 7 was my favorite tech product and I love the fast Touch ID.

00:54:58   I love it, love it so much.

00:54:59   I still love it.

00:55:01   If face recognition makes me do the same thing, think like, "Oh, I thought this was going

00:55:04   to be a crap technology because no one's ever done it well, but guess what?

00:55:07   Apple finally did it well and it's awesome."

00:55:09   That's the best case scenario if this is as good as Touch ID.

00:55:12   Right now I'm still in the doubting phase.

00:55:14   - Yeah, I really, nothing I have heard so far

00:55:17   about facial recognition speculation has made me say,

00:55:22   oh, that sounds better than Touch ID.

00:55:24   Like, Touch ID is great.

00:55:26   It works really well.

00:55:28   It works the vast majority of the time.

00:55:30   The second generation one got even better,

00:55:32   and it's so fast, and it does solve a lot of those problems.

00:55:36   Like you mentioned, what if you are there,

00:55:39   but you don't wanna authorize something?

00:55:40   Like, with Touch ID, you can be physically present

00:55:44   the phone, but you can be presented with a sheet or with a lock screen and you can decline

00:55:49   to authorize something if you don't want to authorize it at that moment.

00:55:52   With facial recognition there would have to be another step.

00:55:54   You'd have to like, you know, hit a button on the screen or something like that.

00:55:58   There are ways this is worse.

00:56:00   Touch ID works no matter how you're holding the phone.

00:56:03   Even if the phone is still in your pocket, you can unlock it with Touch ID to do something.

00:56:08   You can unlock it as you are taking it out of your pocket before you are fully holding

00:56:12   it up, which saves time. You can unlock it in any lighting conditions. You could, like,

00:56:17   it is, it is so incredibly versatile and it, it works in so many ways that I hope that

00:56:25   what we're moving to with whatever comes, whatever comes in the new phone, you know,

00:56:29   if we're actually going to get rid of Touch ID, which by the way, I'm not entirely sure

00:56:33   that, that I want to believe these rumors, and we'll get to that in a second, but, in,

00:56:39   In so many recent Apple product developments, because so much of the low-hanging fruit of

00:56:46   modern hardware has been picked already, we are so often having to make progress only

00:56:53   by making certain things worse, or by giving up certain things that we're not quite ready

00:56:57   to give up yet.

00:56:59   And we do this in order to get the new hotness.

00:57:03   We judge, okay, well, I really want my phone to be

00:57:07   not a bigger phone, but to have a bigger screen.

00:57:10   So I guess I'll give up X, Y, and Z.

00:57:13   - Is that, by the way, when I asked before,

00:57:15   what, remind me again why we're all about this

00:57:19   all-screen thing, is that it?

00:57:20   Is it the only one that just like more pixels?

00:57:23   - That's it.

00:57:24   Yeah, it's fitting a bigger screen in a smaller phone.

00:57:27   That's what it is, that's all it is.

00:57:30   - I'm thinking that there are other,

00:57:33   That's the main thing. I think there's at least a couple other small potential things.

00:57:37   I mean that's a big thing.

00:57:37   But the simplification of, kind of like the simplification of making the whole thing a

00:57:42   screen with the exception of the home button was such a vast simplification over, you know,

00:57:46   the Blackberry or whatever. That going a step farther and saying it's just all screen is,

00:57:53   you know, furthers in Johnny Ive, you know, distilling the thing to its essence,

00:57:58   getting rid of extraneous stuff. Can you, you know, like you with trying to make your app with

00:58:03   no settings, like this is part of the drive, part of the simplification drive. And the idea that

00:58:10   this phone, you know, the rumors was delayed because they couldn't pull it off. But then

00:58:13   now that what we're talking about is like, they keep talking about the brow, you know,

00:58:17   the thing like where the cameras are, whatever, because they can't get them to go through the

00:58:19   screen. It's like, are you kind of like the laptops? Are you just grasping for the bigger

00:58:27   screen on a smaller phone and at a certain point you're like look we're

00:58:31   gonna do bigger screen on a smaller phone and we're just gonna do it and

00:58:33   we're gonna make it work and we missed last year we're gonna do it this year no

00:58:36   matter what it takes and that doesn't doesn't excite me that much I have to

00:58:41   say like it might look cool but I would prefer that they delay for a third year

00:58:46   if they can't get these issues worked out I mean you know again they haven't

00:58:51   shipped anything yet we have no idea they may have hit this out of the park

00:58:53   and maybe the delay was exactly, you know, it'll be fine.

00:58:56   But the more I hear about potential compromises,

00:59:00   the less excited I am about,

00:59:03   I get more pixels in a smaller case, except for the brow,

00:59:07   which does something to the status bar.

00:59:09   But anyway, like that doesn't excite me that much.

00:59:11   I really, you know, again, it'll probably excite me a lot

00:59:14   if everything works awesome.

00:59:15   But I don't know, I was just trying to think of like,

00:59:17   what else did we get out of this?

00:59:18   This is setting aside OLED,

00:59:19   which obviously OLED, we get a lot out of OLED,

00:59:21   But you don't need to do an all-screen phone to get all that

00:59:23   So wait, so slow down what makes OLED so much better because I genuinely know nothing about this stuff

00:59:29   Blacker blacks, you know, if you're watching video and your thing like solid takes less power

00:59:33   So I mean you're not lighting up sections on OLED screen

00:59:36   There's it's not on whereas with an LCD the backlight is on behind the whole screen even when it's entirely black

00:59:41   Which is why the black levels are terrible because we don't have dynamic backlights on our iOS devices as far as I know

00:59:45   They're not dynamic backlights

00:59:46   And even if they were, dynamic backlights suck because they're not behind every single

00:59:51   pixel, they're regional, and so on and so forth.

00:59:53   So anyway, lower power and much higher contrast.

00:59:58   And the challenge is to get one that has the color reproduction of Apple's LCD screens,

01:00:02   because apparently getting a P3 OLED the size Apple wants with all the characteristics it

01:00:08   wants is not straightforward.

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01:02:02   One of the reasons why I'm a little hesitant

01:02:09   to believe this rumor.

01:02:10   And the only reason everyone's talking about this

01:02:14   is because Ming-Chi Kuo reported it.

01:02:16   And Ming-Chi Kuo has a really good record.

01:02:19   But his sources tend to be supply chain sources only.

01:02:26   And he doesn't have a perfect record.

01:02:29   He often misses the story, and he often

01:02:33   predicts things that are wild and then don't come true.

01:02:37   The entire Apple rumors game for a few years there

01:02:41   were seemingly reporting on every single

01:02:43   major product launch before it happened.

01:02:45   And we all joked about Tim Cook doubling down on secrecy

01:02:49   a couple years ago when he said that,

01:02:50   but it really does seem like that has happened.

01:02:52   And in the last year or two,

01:02:55   we are seeing very few substantial leaks

01:02:59   and even fewer leaked parts and everything.

01:03:03   And we are basing all of our discussion

01:03:06   about this year's presumed new iPhone

01:03:11   on almost zero good information.

01:03:13   Like there's almost nothing solid out there.

01:03:16   There are still no credible parts leaks.

01:03:20   And for this point in the year, that's saying something.

01:03:23   - You don't think those?

01:03:24   I'm keeping up with the thing with like the fact

01:03:26   that the cameras are arranged vertically

01:03:27   and all those things.

01:03:29   I'm assuming at this point that

01:03:30   that is a pretty accurate representation

01:03:32   even if it's not a real parts leak.

01:03:34   - Yeah, I mean, I think that's plausible,

01:03:37   but that's not that big of a thing.

01:03:39   It has two cameras.

01:03:41   You can hold the phone in any orientation you want.

01:03:44   So if you turn the iPhone 7S, or 7 Plus, sideways,

01:03:49   then they're vertical, and it still works.

01:03:53   What's the big deal?

01:03:54   That means nothing.

01:03:55   - And the materials rumors are pretty close

01:03:57   to that glass front and back with stainless steel rim.

01:04:01   That seems pretty solid everywhere.

01:04:02   But that hasn't converged.

01:04:04   No one's agreeing on any of these things.

01:04:06   It seems like Apple tried a bunch of stuff for this generation.

01:04:10   And it also seems like nobody has a credible report out there that indicates what direction

01:04:17   they chose on almost any of these issues.

01:04:21   The only thing people seem to agree on is that they're probably launching three phones

01:04:25   this fall.

01:04:26   And the expensive ones are gonna be OLED,

01:04:30   and it's got more screen for less front place,

01:04:33   and it probably is not gonna have a physical home button.

01:04:35   Like I feel like right before the phones come out,

01:04:37   it's inevitable that we'll see some kind of parts,

01:04:40   like legit parts, you know, the front and the back

01:04:42   of the phone, and some cutouts and stuff.

01:04:44   - But it is really interesting

01:04:45   that we haven't seen them yet.

01:04:47   Like in most years in recent times,

01:04:51   by summertime we were seeing credible parts leaks,

01:04:54   and not even a small number.

01:04:56   We're seeing, like, starting to see substantial numbers

01:04:58   of credible parts leaks.

01:05:00   And I don't know if the phone is behind schedule,

01:05:03   or maybe it is just the improved secrecy at Apple.

01:05:07   But it really does seem like we have less information

01:05:10   than ever this time on this phone.

01:05:12   So when you see a rumor come out,

01:05:14   even from somebody who has a pretty good track record,

01:05:17   like Meng Shiquo or like Mark Gurman,

01:05:19   I honestly don't believe it.

01:05:22   Because I don't have much reason to.

01:05:25   because they're still all over the map.

01:05:28   And again, these people with,

01:05:29   a really good track record for Apple Rumor Prediction

01:05:33   is like, maybe you're comically wrong

01:05:36   less than half the time.

01:05:38   But that's not a very good record still.

01:05:40   Like, the standards for what makes a good record

01:05:42   in Apple Rumors are pretty low.

01:05:44   - So which part of this is the part you don't believe?

01:05:46   The face recognition or no touch ID?

01:05:49   - All of that.

01:05:50   Face recognition, no touch ID, rear touch ID,

01:05:53   what materials the case is gonna be made of,

01:05:56   what the sides of the case are gonna be made of.

01:05:58   I don't buy, whether there's gonna be that big notch

01:06:00   in the top for the cameras and stuff

01:06:01   that is gonna interfere with the status bar.

01:06:04   Right now, I am not confident in any of those rumors

01:06:08   to say, oh yeah, that sounds likely,

01:06:11   let's talk about it as if it's gonna happen.

01:06:12   Like, it's, because there really is no coherent direction

01:06:17   that everything is focusing in on, there's no--

01:06:21   - Well, the direction is how the hell

01:06:22   that we get this whole, this complete screen phone to work.

01:06:26   - Right. - That's the direction.

01:06:27   - And that, again, that is interesting.

01:06:29   And we saw, there were some like, you know,

01:06:32   allegedly leaked parts earlier from a safety inspector

01:06:34   who was inspecting US customs packages.

01:06:37   And they look pretty questionable, it's probably fake.

01:06:40   But it did present like an interesting idea of like,

01:06:43   what if the new phone looked like this?

01:06:45   And it looked nice, you know, it looks plausible.

01:06:48   And it's like, oh, here's how you can cram a big screen

01:06:53   that is still rectangular, that doesn't have a weird

01:06:55   little cutout on the top for the camera and stuff.

01:06:57   Here's how you can shove a big screen into a phone body

01:07:02   that is still not that much bigger.

01:07:03   And that's nice, that's fine, but it was probably fake,

01:07:07   and or probably was a different phone,

01:07:09   or something like that.

01:07:10   You can't draw any real information out of any of these

01:07:13   things, and this year more than ever,

01:07:15   because everything is so all over the map,

01:07:18   it seems like either Apple has gotten so good on secrecy

01:07:21   that these rumors are all based on total BS.

01:07:23   And not to say that Mark Gurman and Meng Xiu-Kuo

01:07:26   were making things up,

01:07:27   but that they are really grasping at straws

01:07:30   and that they're trying really hard to extract

01:07:34   a coherent story out of very minimal

01:07:38   and questionable information.

01:07:39   Or that this phone is super late

01:07:43   and that it's not gonna be coming out

01:07:45   or available in September or October.

01:07:48   And in which case, who knows what's going on with it.

01:07:50   But I think it's more likely that it is still coming out

01:07:53   this fall, that secrecy has just gotten better,

01:07:56   and that they're just getting less and less information

01:08:00   to report on, and they're trying like mad

01:08:02   to try to get stories out of whatever they have.

01:08:05   - Well, it's a safe bet to say that the new iPhone,

01:08:09   whether it's iPhone Pro or whatever the hell,

01:08:10   like the fancy expensive all-screen one,

01:08:12   will be supply constrained, like more than usual.

01:08:15   because all we've heard about it is things that sound like they would be difficult to

01:08:20   manufacture because they're unprecedented as far as an iPhone is concerned and rumors

01:08:26   and delays and stuff like that.

01:08:29   It's going to be hard to get one of those.

01:08:31   It'll be at least as hard as getting a gold iPhone, maybe even harder.

01:08:34   And I guess they control that by making the price more because obviously it'll be more

01:08:37   expensive than the other ones and maybe that will help control demand a little bit.

01:08:40   But I think that's a safe bet.

01:08:42   And for these rumors, I'm not sure what to believe out of them all either, but I will

01:08:46   say that face recognition sounds like something that sounds like an Apple style thing.

01:08:53   That it's a type of, like I said with Touch ID, a type of thing that sounds cool, but

01:08:56   every time we've seen it done before, it's been crappy.

01:08:59   But if it worked well, would be nice to have.

01:09:03   Doesn't mean you have to get rid of Touch ID to do it or whatever, but face recognition

01:09:07   definitely seems like an Apple feature.

01:09:09   Is it an Apple feature for this year?

01:09:11   I don't know.

01:09:12   But I think it would fit in well and it would make Apple's products better if they actually

01:09:18   worked on that and got it to the point like they did with Touch ID where it passes over

01:09:22   that barrier of being a technical curiosity and it is something that just naturally becomes

01:09:27   part of our life and we take for granted.

01:09:29   Especially if it's not the only way to unlock your phone.

01:09:33   If you incorporate all of those sensors and all the inputs and user preferences, I can

01:09:39   imagine a phone that supports face recognition being better than one that just supports Touch

01:09:45   ID if done really well. So I'm actually kind of excited for that being true. I'm trying

01:09:53   to forget things like the Fire Phone from Amazon that tried to do stuff with multiple

01:09:56   cameras that was just a giant mess and just assuming like Apple just won't ship it if

01:10:00   it's crap.

01:10:01   Yeah, and Samsung also had face recognition too in one of their recent phones and the

01:10:05   The review is all crap all over it because it was terrible

01:10:07   and we didn't hear about it again.

01:10:10   - And the good thing is like that, you know,

01:10:12   Apple can ship a phone with a depth sensor

01:10:15   and just say, no, we're not doing it.

01:10:16   We couldn't get face recognition to work with them.

01:10:18   But hey, guess what?

01:10:19   That depth sensor is still really useful

01:10:21   for features that we already have.

01:10:23   It will make the, what is it called?

01:10:24   I keep forgetting the name of the fake depth of field

01:10:26   that they, what do they call it?

01:10:28   - Portrait mode?

01:10:29   - Yeah, portrait mode.

01:10:30   It'll make portrait mode better.

01:10:31   And so that, you know, it's not a waste of hardware

01:10:35   and it will not be like, "Well, look at, like,

01:10:37   what was the time, like an iPod touch or something?"

01:10:39   Shipped with the cutout for where the camera would go,

01:10:41   but there was no actual cutout in case, no actual camera.

01:10:44   Like, this won't be like that.

01:10:46   If they have depth sensors in there,

01:10:47   which this could also be the origin of these rumors.

01:10:49   Say they have depth sensors,

01:10:51   I think they're using that for facial recognition.

01:10:52   Like, one thing supply chain doesn't know about

01:10:54   is software, I'll tell you that,

01:10:55   'cause that happens someplace else.

01:10:57   So--

01:10:58   - Also, you know what else uses depth sensing?

01:10:59   ARKit, hello?

01:11:01   Like, there's lots of reasons why the phone

01:11:03   could use depth sensing on front and back cameras

01:11:06   that are not necessarily just for this.

01:11:08   I mean, they could be using a depth sensor

01:11:11   just to get the portrait mode on the selfie camera.

01:11:14   Like, that's not that unreasonable.

01:11:16   Like, that could be it.

01:11:18   - Right, but the ones you have the depth sensor,

01:11:19   like, that almost guarantees that they looked into

01:11:24   face recognition, 'cause you're almost all the way there

01:11:26   at that point.

01:11:27   Like, you've got Core ML,

01:11:28   you've got these machine learning things,

01:11:30   you've got this vision framework, whatever the hell

01:11:33   it's called, you've got ARKit, you've got portrait mode, like everything is already

01:11:37   there to say, of course Apple has been looking into face recognition, like they've got all

01:11:42   the pieces. The question is, oh, did it get to the point where they're going to ship it?

01:11:46   And we'll see. But I actually, I kind of hope they do have it working because I think it

01:11:51   would be a really cool reason to try the new iPhone because I have some confidence that

01:11:55   they won't ship it if it's crap, that they'll ship it if it's cool and great. And I'm just

01:11:59   really hoping that it's not the only way to unlock it because that'll be weird. Like you

01:12:02   don't what Apple doesn't want to happen is for its expensive iPhone Pro like the

01:12:07   fancy one that is supposed to be the object of desire and lust causing

01:12:10   everybody to make that "eeehhhh" noise even the people who you know the target audience

01:12:15   are like ready because they're like I do want the fanciest and best phone but this has

01:12:20   weird compromises that are confusing me and making me second-guess like you want

01:12:24   it to just be like better in everything or have some amazing feature that you

01:12:27   can't resist even if you buy it and have buyers remorse and it turns out not to

01:12:30   to be as cool as you thought.

01:12:32   Before you have it in your hands, it has to look like,

01:12:34   obviously I want the Pro.

01:12:36   Like if I've got the money, I want the fancy phone

01:12:38   'cause it's the cool one.

01:12:38   I really can't wait to try that face recognition or whatever.

01:12:41   But if it doesn't have touch ID,

01:12:43   and like you just think about it,

01:12:46   like once again, like, you know,

01:12:47   how do I unlock it when it's in my pocket?

01:12:49   Well, you don't.

01:12:49   How do I unlock it in the dark?

01:12:50   Well, it's got IR sensors so it can see in the dark.

01:12:52   Okay, well, that's cool.

01:12:53   Like there's all this sort of negotiation

01:12:55   that you have to go through to convince yourself

01:12:57   that you really do want the supply constraint.

01:12:59   you can't actually buy one for three months,

01:13:01   $1500 iPhone Pro.

01:13:02   - Yeah, and it's also, it's entirely possible

01:13:07   that they do have a depth sensor,

01:13:10   that it is IR, that it can work in the dark,

01:13:13   that it is using facial recognition technology

01:13:16   from that company they bought that does that,

01:13:18   that it is part of AR.

01:13:20   It's possible that it's doing all of those things,

01:13:22   but just isn't being used to unlock your phone.

01:13:25   Like, that is all, that can all be true.

01:13:27   - It just tells you if you're a hot dog or not, that's it.

01:13:29   - Right, yeah, hot dog or not.

01:13:30   Like, all of this could be them just, you know,

01:13:34   adding all this technology for other uses,

01:13:36   for portrait mode, for face recognition in the Photos app,

01:13:40   for AR, like, there are so many other reasons

01:13:42   that they could use all these technologies,

01:13:44   all these sensors, and have them all work together

01:13:45   to make cool features that people want.

01:13:48   They can do all of that, and also decide,

01:13:51   you know what, this isn't actually good enough

01:13:53   for unlocking your phone, and, you know,

01:13:55   proving secureness for, you know, purchases and stuff.

01:13:58   but we're gonna ship all this stuff anyway

01:14:00   'cause it's useful for all this other great stuff.

01:14:01   Like that is totally a thing.

01:14:03   So I'm guessing this is two different things

01:14:06   that don't follow.

01:14:07   Like maybe some analyst or rumor reporter

01:14:11   got info that says Apple's building in facial recognition.

01:14:14   And maybe they also got info that we all heard months ago

01:14:16   that said touch ID under the screen

01:14:18   is proving to be difficult.

01:14:20   But that might not mean that they are canceling touch ID

01:14:24   and using face recognition instead.

01:14:26   Like those are separate things.

01:14:28   that conclusion might not be the correct conclusion to draw from those two possibly totally independent

01:14:33   pieces of information.

01:14:34   >>

01:14:36   In the world of security and everything, the whole idea of like that you can be compelled

01:14:40   to unlock your phone with touch ID because of US law, like they can push you, you know,

01:14:46   they can just take your finger and put it on there in the same way they can take your

01:14:49   finger and put it on an ink pad or whatever.

01:14:51   I don't think facial recognition changes that, but just makes it even easier.

01:14:54   They don't even have to, they just have to hold the phone up to your face and you know,

01:14:57   You can't turn your head away.

01:14:59   And guess what?

01:14:59   You just unlocked your phone with your face.

01:15:01   So all the same protocols apply to locking your phone

01:15:05   so it requires your passcode and using a sophisticated passcode

01:15:08   and all that stuff.

01:15:10   I don't think facial recognition changes that.

01:15:11   But just like your finger, your face is your face,

01:15:14   your finger is your finger.

01:15:15   We talked about this before.

01:15:17   If your biometrics are compromised,

01:15:20   and you can compromise fingerprints,

01:15:22   you can lift them, you can compromise faces,

01:15:25   you can fake them.

01:15:26   Even if faces are better than fingerprints,

01:15:28   if someone is sufficiently motivated, they can do this.

01:15:32   So, you know, as in all cases, like, know the protocol.

01:15:36   If you're gonna be in a situation where you don't want

01:15:39   to involuntarily unlock your phone,

01:15:41   know the correct protocols to get it to the point

01:15:44   where it demands your very arbitrary length,

01:15:47   alphanumeric password to be unlocked

01:15:49   and, you know, continue to do those.

01:15:51   - The really funny part is that somebody could,

01:15:53   like, if the iPhone has all these technologies

01:15:56   to measure the depth of your face and everything,

01:16:00   the iPhone itself could be a wonderful tool

01:16:02   to use to capture other people's faces

01:16:04   to make clone models of.

01:16:06   - Well, you have to also make them,

01:16:07   I'm sure they have heat signatures.

01:16:09   You'd have to make a fleshy, hot thing that has,

01:16:13   it would be a little bit more complicated,

01:16:15   but it could be done.

01:16:17   But yeah, you're right.

01:16:18   They are giving you the tools and technology

01:16:20   to do at least the depth part of it,

01:16:21   although presumably bad actors

01:16:23   could get a fancier depth sensor

01:16:25   than one that fits inside a phone, but who knows?

01:16:26   Apple's pretty good at this type of stuff.

01:16:29   On the face recognition of the market,

01:16:30   you didn't say, regardless of whether, you know,

01:16:33   like whether you think this is true or not,

01:16:36   would you find it attractive?

01:16:38   Would you think, is that a cool thing that you,

01:16:40   are you hoping that they did actually figure it out?

01:16:43   But again, setting aside whether Touch ID is there or not,

01:16:45   does it sound like a cool thing?

01:16:46   Would it make you want to get the new phone more?

01:16:48   - Not at all.

01:16:50   It sounds like a gimmick.

01:16:51   Whether it would be or not, I don't know.

01:16:53   But I'll tell you one thing, when Samsung did it,

01:16:56   it sounded like a gimmick then,

01:16:58   it sounds like it's easily faked and unreliable.

01:17:01   Whether it actually is or not, who knows?

01:17:03   I don't think Apple would do it if it was that bad.

01:17:05   But the concept as it sounds to me right now

01:17:09   sounds like a gimmick that I don't want.

01:17:11   - Did Touch ID sound like that to you at first or not?

01:17:15   - Honestly, I don't remember, but probably not.

01:17:18   - Okay, so but that's a hard comparison though

01:17:21   because Touch ID, I think, was an easier sell

01:17:25   in that it was a deliberate action that you can control

01:17:29   that presumably is something similar to the crappy things

01:17:34   that we've all experienced in our past,

01:17:35   except just not crappy.

01:17:38   But in every other way,

01:17:39   it was predictable and understandable.

01:17:42   Whereas right now, not having seen the keynote,

01:17:45   not having been instructed on how to hold your face

01:17:48   and how to hold your phone to your face and et cetera,

01:17:51   it's hard to say what this would really entail.

01:17:56   And on the surface, I would agree with Marco that,

01:18:00   eh, this doesn't sound like it's for me.

01:18:02   But I also agree,

01:18:05   and I think that this is an important point,

01:18:07   that Apple wouldn't ship it

01:18:08   unless it was really, really solid

01:18:12   and it worked really, really well

01:18:13   and had thought of these things

01:18:15   like what happens in the dark,

01:18:16   What happens when the phone isn't pointed square at your face?

01:18:20   What happens when you have sunglasses on or different glasses?

01:18:23   What happens when there's direct sunlight and you're washed out?

01:18:26   What happens if you want to look at your phone but not authorize a charge?

01:18:30   I have to assume that Apple will have worked all this out.

01:18:33   So if this really is a thing, I'm pretty amped to try it.

01:18:37   But I mean, I'm still kind of excited to one day eventually get a Touch Bar Mac.

01:18:42   And everything I've heard from almost everyone

01:18:45   that that's a gimmick, that's a waste of time. So who knows?

01:18:48   - Yeah, well, 'cause keep in mind, Apple, you know,

01:18:51   Apple for the most part, they've had a couple of stumbles

01:18:55   here and there in this way, but for the most part,

01:18:58   they won't release something unless it works reasonably well.

01:19:01   So I'm not worried that face recognition would be, you know,

01:19:05   badly functioning. But I think the Touch Bar is a wonderful

01:19:09   example of how they will release things that aren't

01:19:14   necessarily compelling. You know, they do occasionally have that kind of flop. And the

01:19:19   touch bar, I think, is one of those things. You know, as time goes on, and when it first

01:19:23   came out, people thought, "Oh, well, this is kind of interesting. I guess we'll see

01:19:26   what people do with it." And, yep, turns out no one's doing anything with it, and

01:19:30   it's not that interesting, and it just doesn't, it's not really, I don't think it was worth

01:19:36   what they did. Simple as that. Face recognition might be one of those things, too. We, like,

01:19:43   I don't think they would release it if it was much less secure than Touch ID.

01:19:47   They have very good security people working for them.

01:19:50   I don't think, and Touch ID I don't think was ever really compromised in a meaningful

01:19:54   way in the security sense.

01:19:57   So if they release face recognition as an unlock thing or secure thing, I bet it will

01:20:02   work fine and I bet it will be very secure.

01:20:06   Whether it will actually be compelling and cool and whether you will want to use it all

01:20:11   all the time, instead of using Touch ID,

01:20:12   that's a different story.

01:20:14   That's a big unknown.

01:20:15   - Well, but if it's really what it promises,

01:20:19   and of course there is no promise yet,

01:20:20   this is all hypothetical,

01:20:21   but I would assume the Apple pitch for this would be,

01:20:25   hey, this is even faster than Touch ID

01:20:28   and you don't even have to think about it.

01:20:30   You just raise to wake and then suddenly

01:20:32   your phone is already unlocked.

01:20:33   - Well, I was gonna say,

01:20:34   the sales pitch for this is pretty easy.

01:20:37   Casey even went through all the things like,

01:20:39   what about this, what about that?

01:20:40   there are answers for all of those,

01:20:42   pretty easy answers for all of them in terms of darkness

01:20:45   and using IR and being washed out and it doesn't matter

01:20:47   and security and using more than just the depth, right?

01:20:51   And the solution to what if I don't wanna authorize

01:20:53   is what you just described,

01:20:54   like pitching it as a better touch ID

01:20:56   is that it's not just the face,

01:20:58   it's the face and you also have to press the screen, right?

01:21:01   The face and you also have to force press the screen.

01:21:03   Imagine touch ID,

01:21:05   but doesn't matter where the heck you touch

01:21:06   or with what finger and there's no training.

01:21:08   you pick the phone up and you just smush the screen somewhere.

01:21:11   The bottom half of the screen used to mush or anywhere,

01:21:14   maybe it's anywhere on the screen you smush, right? But that it's two factor,

01:21:16   right? That your face has to be in view. And what if it's at an angle that is

01:21:19   really good? Doesn't matter if it's on a super oblique angle,

01:21:22   it's very wide angle, whatever, right?

01:21:23   Just needs to be somehow able to view your face in some way and you swish the

01:21:27   screen and in use, that's like the world's fastest,

01:21:31   most efficient touch ID. Just yank the phone out of your pocket,

01:21:35   your pocket and squeeze it and by the time you're looking at it it's unlocked

01:21:38   because the combination of your face being in view when his head is in view

01:21:43   hit it with the rock anyway that combination what don't worry it'll it'll

01:21:49   be fine I just this this time you got notice a reference but a bad impression

01:21:53   the bonus it feels like magic touch ID right and it solves all the problems you

01:21:58   did combine with IR and all those things the only one it doesn't solve is when

01:22:02   it's in your pocket and you want to unlock it but that's kind of a weird thing to do anyway, right?

01:22:06   So that's why I'm excited about it because I can imagine a version of this with current technology. No magic involved

01:22:13   That is really awesome

01:22:15   But I can also imagine like Marco said that this is just people getting confused by hardware that's available and this is not coming this

01:22:22   Year and that would be fine too, but I'm actually kind of excited for it

01:22:24   I think it will be more like touch ID if they ship it and less like the touch bar

01:22:29   which I think, by the way, the touch bar works.

01:22:32   Like, aside from weird graphical glitches

01:22:34   having to do with like weird OS bugs and GPU things

01:22:36   or whatever, it does what it's supposed to do.

01:22:38   Like it looks good, it feels good.

01:22:41   The functionality that it implements is there.

01:22:43   It's just like, oh, well, it turns out

01:22:45   no one is super excited about that functionality.

01:22:47   But it actually works.

01:22:48   It's not kind of like, the other example,

01:22:49   it says like Siri or Apple Maps or something

01:22:51   where they shipped it and maybe it was like,

01:22:53   well, even for the thing you were trying to do,

01:22:56   you didn't quite pull it off.

01:22:57   And so we can't really evaluate this idea, the value of this idea, because you kind of

01:23:02   screw up the implementation initially and eventually we'll get better, right?

01:23:05   So we'll see.

01:23:06   Thanks so much for our three sponsors this week, Casper, Squarespace, and Fracture.

01:23:11   We will see you next week.

01:23:13   Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin, 'cause it was accidental.

01:23:22   Oh, it was accidental.

01:23:25   John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

01:23:31   'Cause it was accidental, it was accidental

01:23:36   And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM

01:23:41   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them

01:23:46   [Music]

01:24:16   Real-time follow-up windows icons menus and pointer wimp. Ah

01:24:21   I always forget the eyes icons. I go like input. I beam cursor. What the hell icons?

01:24:26   Like whoever I gotta follow the reference whoever made that up. I really hope it wasn't an app or a Mac person first

01:24:32   It's a bad acronym and second

01:24:34   icons anyway

01:24:37   So, uh, what else is going on? Well so far my 15 inch MacBook Pro is doing just fine

01:24:44   - Oh, actually, I meant to ask you, how's your monitor?

01:24:47   Seriously, I'm not trying to snark.

01:24:49   - So the LG 5K, whatever it's called, ultra sharp,

01:24:52   whatever it is, the LG 5K that Apple pushed last fall.

01:24:56   - That's Dell, Dell has ultra sharp.

01:24:58   - Okay, sorry.

01:24:59   They look about the same.

01:25:02   It is what you'd expect from,

01:25:08   if Apple dictated quality standards for a panel,

01:25:12   but had a PC manufacturer actually make and sell the case

01:25:16   and everything else.

01:25:17   So it is a beautiful screen.

01:25:20   It is just as good as the iMac that I had, the 2014 one.

01:25:25   And I'm pretty sure this also supports Display P3 color,

01:25:30   so it's actually better in that spec.

01:25:32   I have not compared it side by side to a modern iMac

01:25:36   with the newest P3 screen,

01:25:38   so I don't know if it's better that way,

01:25:40   or if it's comfortable with them

01:25:42   or if it's a little bit worse, who knows?

01:25:44   Maybe on some spec it might be a little bit worse,

01:25:45   but to my eyes it looks pretty amazing.

01:25:48   So the panel is awesome.

01:25:49   The rest of the monitor itself is generic PC maker stuff.

01:25:55   It has a big, ugly black case around it.

01:26:00   It has a big, ugly stand.

01:26:02   The speakers are embarrassing.

01:26:04   I'm not even sure why it has speakers, they're so bad.

01:26:07   and it has three USB-C output ports on the back,

01:26:12   and it charges my laptop when it's plugged in.

01:26:17   So it functions, oh, and it has a webcam up top,

01:26:21   and because it has a webcam up top,

01:26:22   it has this giant top bezel

01:26:25   that does not match the bottom bezel and looks weird.

01:26:28   I have not used the webcam yet, I don't care,

01:26:30   I probably never will.

01:26:31   So it's fine, but as soon as Apple says

01:26:37   they're making a pro display with next year's Mac Pro,

01:26:39   I'm probably gonna get that when I get the Mac Pro.

01:26:44   Because, again, this is fine, it's serving me fine for now,

01:26:49   but it certainly does not make me think,

01:26:52   wow, this is an amazing piece of computer that I have here.

01:26:57   Because it's just so blah, ugly PC hardware.

01:27:02   - I was in an Apple store recently,

01:27:03   and I saw the 5K and 4K sitting over there,

01:27:06   and they just look so incongruous in an Apple store.

01:27:08   Like it's all this Apple hardware

01:27:09   and then these big black shiny PC looking things.

01:27:13   It's gross.

01:27:14   - Yeah, they really are gross.

01:27:16   But, and the good thing is the panel does work great.

01:27:20   It is a beautiful 5K panel.

01:27:23   And it does work very well with all the recent laptops.

01:27:26   The only thing I will say is that,

01:27:28   as I mentioned last episode,

01:27:30   with the MacBook escape,

01:27:33   The GPU performance is not great on it, so things like moving around or resizing large

01:27:38   windows you actually see some stuttering there and stuff like that.

01:27:41   But on the 15 inch with the discrete GPU it's great, totally fine.

01:27:46   There is a minor issue with the 15 inch that some people point out on Twitter that I don't

01:27:51   think I care about because I don't think I can notice it outside of benchmarks, but if

01:27:54   you install the Intel power gadget, which is basically Intel's little extension and

01:28:01   widget thing to show you your CPU's dynamic clocking and temperature and everything in

01:28:07   real time as like a little graph. Kind of like activity monitor but for your CPU's clock

01:28:11   speed. If you install that, you will notice that when the 15 inch is plugged into an external

01:28:17   display, it actually throttles the CPU speed more so than it throttles it when it's running

01:28:25   just by itself. Weird. I assume this is for thermal reasons and that's kind of BS-y. I

01:28:30   I don't like that.

01:28:32   I feel like that's kind of cheating.

01:28:34   And that means that if you use this computer,

01:28:37   and so it has power, it's getting powered by the monitor,

01:28:39   so it isn't that it has to conserve power,

01:28:41   it seems to be thermal.

01:28:42   And I tried it both with open lid and in clamshell mode,

01:28:45   and it seems to be the same.

01:28:47   So it's kind of weird that if you plug this computer

01:28:51   into an external monitor, you get worse CPU performance.

01:28:54   But it doesn't seem to be bi enough to make me care.

01:29:00   It is frustrating, but I think I'm gonna just deal with that because, oh well.

01:29:05   And this might only be with the high-end CPU model, but it clocks it down pretty far.

01:29:11   It clocks it down from like 2.9 to 2.0 when it's in this throttling mode.

01:29:17   So that's a pretty big drop.

01:29:20   But anyway, not a big deal I don't think.

01:29:23   Again, I haven't been using it for that long, so ask me again later, but I think it's

01:29:28   probably fine.

01:29:29   Sounds like somebody needs a Mac Pro.

01:29:31   I do, yes, tell me about it.

01:29:35   As far as, you know, people who use laptops as their main machines, like, yeah, the fan

01:29:39   noise alone is such a compromise.

01:29:41   Because you work it hard, it's connected to your big screen, you're gonna do your big

01:29:44   important work, you have it plugged in, you think everything has adequate power, and like,

01:29:48   even if everything is going off without a hitch, still the thing sounds like a dentist

01:29:52   drill over there.

01:29:53   And now it's like throttling stuff, and it's getting too hot, and you don't want to have

01:29:56   it in clamshell mode because it gets too hot and the thermal throttle itself is just yucky.

01:30:01   Well, it's just weird. That's the kind of problem that I would not expect a brand new

01:30:06   computer in 2017 to have, especially a revision 2 of a new hardware design. I would definitely

01:30:13   not expect that. And honestly, I actually considered for my needs being all weird and

01:30:20   temporary and changing and needing to be portable, I actually did consider getting another trash

01:30:24   and just using it for the next year.

01:30:26   - That would have been awesome.

01:30:28   Casey's brain would have exploded.

01:30:30   - Oh my god, please, man.

01:30:32   - If Apple waits long enough, Marco will

01:30:34   re-buy the same computers multiple times.

01:30:36   - I mean, really, one of the biggest reasons

01:30:38   they didn't do it is because

01:30:40   it can't drive a 5K display

01:30:42   very easily. - You can drive it in non-native

01:30:44   res, are you interested in that? - Right, or

01:30:46   yeah, or like, you know, downscaling over the wire

01:30:48   and then re-upscaling it, yeah. I've seen it in the

01:30:50   Apple store, it does not look right, but

01:30:52   but if it could drive a 5K display nicely,

01:30:57   I might have actually gone that route instead

01:30:59   because I do love desktop so much.

01:31:02   And there's some weirdness with clamshell mode,

01:31:04   it's mostly fine.

01:31:06   It's fine enough for the next year for me to just deal with,

01:31:10   but boy, I'm gonna, as soon as that Mac Pro comes out,

01:31:13   I'm switching back.

01:31:15   - And when I was in the Apple Store recently,

01:31:16   I also saw the trash can, and you know what?

01:31:18   Still looks cool.

01:31:19   - It does.

01:31:21   - If you get a trash can again,

01:31:23   'cause you did sell it, right?

01:31:24   You did get rid of the last one.

01:31:26   - And I sold it for enough to cover

01:31:27   the entire purchase of the iMac.

01:31:29   'Cause you can actually sell them for quite a bit.

01:31:33   - Buy high, sell slightly less high.

01:31:34   That's Marco's philosophy from X.

01:31:36   - So Tipster in the chat is suggesting,

01:31:39   and this is actually not the first time

01:31:41   this has been suggested,

01:31:42   why don't I just buy an iMac and bring it to the beach house?

01:31:46   And this is actually something that I considered.

01:31:51   But the fact is, it's so expensive to get a decked out iMac,

01:31:55   and I already had this 5K display.

01:31:58   And so if I was starting over again, maybe I might do that.

01:32:03   But it also, for whatever reason,

01:32:05   next year, when the new Mac Pro presumably comes out,

01:32:10   and when I presumably buy one,

01:32:12   this laptop will be freed up,

01:32:15   and then I just have a really nice laptop.

01:32:17   If I don't do that,

01:32:18   then it doesn't do anything for my laptop need.

01:32:21   So it's like, I don't know,

01:32:23   somehow I rationalize this to make sense, but.

01:32:25   - You?

01:32:27   - Me, yeah.

01:32:28   Yeah, but I don't know.

01:32:31   (laughs)

01:32:32   I really do, honestly, like desktops are really nice.

01:32:35   The ports, oh, I also, I have already found

01:32:38   a USB-C dongle that I don't like.

01:32:42   I have the Anker one,

01:32:44   I think it actually might be the same as you have, Casey.

01:32:46   It's the Anker one that has three USB-A ports

01:32:49   and gigabit ethernet.

01:32:51   - Yeah, what's wrong with it?

01:32:53   - Stuff that I plug into the USB-A ports is not reliable.

01:32:56   - Oh really?

01:32:57   I don't know if I've ever plugged anything

01:32:58   into the USB-A ports.

01:32:59   I got it mostly for ethernet.

01:33:02   And I used it like twice.

01:33:04   So that's unfortunate though if it's unreliable.

01:33:07   - Oh, and one awesome thing that I've found

01:33:09   about this setup is that because everything's running

01:33:13   over this Thunderbolt cable that goes to the laptop,

01:33:16   Like the way I have it set up now is everything I have plugged into the monitor.

01:33:22   And the only thing I have plugged into the computer itself is the cable from the monitor.

01:33:26   And then while I'm podcasting, the USB interface.

01:33:29   Because it's always nice if you're running like audio gear, especially audio recording

01:33:34   gear, it's wise to plug that as directly into the computer as possible to try to avoid hubs

01:33:40   and things like that.

01:33:42   Just for various USB weirdness reasons.

01:33:44   otherwise everything's on this one cable.

01:33:46   So the laptop I actually have four feet away

01:33:48   from the monitor, like on the floor,

01:33:51   leaning against the wall by some bags.

01:33:53   Which is great because it's nowhere near me.

01:33:56   So if the laptop's fans spin up,

01:33:58   I will hear them much less than I would

01:34:00   if it were on the desk or if it were an iMac.

01:34:03   So that's kinda nice.

01:34:04   Of course now as John sits there

01:34:07   with his decade old Mac Pro,

01:34:08   it's probably like dead silent down on the floor as well.

01:34:11   - Sometimes I don't even know if it's on.

01:34:12   It was on all day today.

01:34:13   I forgot to put it to sleep when I went away from it.

01:34:16   And I realized, you know how I found out it was on all day?

01:34:18   'Cause when I came in here to podcast,

01:34:19   and I'm like, "Why is this room so hot?"

01:34:21   It's because it's a space heater.

01:34:22   I've been running in it all day.

01:34:24   That's one thing my computer does do,

01:34:25   is it takes in cool air and it expels hot air,

01:34:28   and it does it very efficiently.

01:34:30   - 10 years of heat.

01:34:31   - Right, most of the energy that goes into my computer

01:34:33   is converted to heat.

01:34:34   - Have you ever dusted the inside of that,

01:34:37   or is that 10 years of dust in there too?

01:34:38   - Oh yeah, yeah.

01:34:39   Although it's so old now that like,

01:34:42   Despite being dusted many times,

01:34:45   it's pretty clean in there.

01:34:47   Like the the vents in the heat sink are pretty clear,

01:34:49   but there's like the dust,

01:34:50   like the thin layer of dust that welds itself

01:34:53   to the surfaces.

01:34:54   Like, I don't know what this phenomenon is,

01:34:56   but like it's dust free as far as like pressurized air

01:34:58   is concerned.

01:34:59   But if you run your finger along the surface,

01:35:01   nothing comes off on your finger,

01:35:02   but you can feel that there's a layer of dust

01:35:04   that is fused to the metal now

01:35:06   that has become part of the aluminum.

01:35:08   It's a hell of a thing.

01:35:09   I'll try to take some good macro photos over

01:35:11   When this thing finally retires in glory to my attic.

01:35:14   This has to go into a museum or something.

01:35:16   Yeah, it's going into his attic.

01:35:18   Exactly.

01:35:19   Not a mausoleum, a museum.

01:35:21   Not a mausoleum, it's the thing from the end of Raiders.

01:35:25   Which is a reference, please tell me you both got, come on, you're gonna kill me.

01:35:29   It's been a long time since I've seen Raiders.

01:35:31   I'm not sure I have seen it.

01:35:32   God dammit.

01:35:33   I've seen it many times, it's just been a long time since I've seen it.

01:35:35   Nothing is safe. Nothing is safe.

01:35:37   At least Casey got my damn sneakers reference.

01:35:40   Yeah, that's all I got to hold on to Casey's favorite movie. He got a reference to yeah

01:35:44   Wait, is this where they where they like have the forklift and the arc or something like that is going into like this random ass

01:35:50   Warehouse where there's just a billion random boxes is that what you're thinking of that's the part

01:35:54   Okay, I got there

01:35:56   Just give me a second Marco may may or may not have seen Raiders of the Lost Ark ladies and gentlemen Marco Armin

01:36:02   (beeping)

01:36:04   [