228: I Never Cancel a Drag


00:00:00   Why is Chrome using a hundred percent of my CPU because Chrome oh, I know why I have an Apple tab open

00:00:05   That's why you know when they add that thing where they put like a little speaker icon

00:00:09   Which by the way, this is kind of like a telephone icon. It's one of those things that I wonder about

00:00:13   People how people recognize it except just by like pattern matching like, you know that you know

00:00:19   the speaker icon looks like a

00:00:21   Paper cone with a little magnet coil like but in profile sure you like which tab is making sound

00:00:27   Yeah with the sound wave coming out of it do people even know that that's supposed to be a speaker

00:00:32   Do they just think that's the sound simple anyway?

00:00:34   Because who the hell knows what a speaker looks like these days, right?

00:00:39   Certainly the speakers in our phones and iPads don't look like that. I mean they have the same parts

00:00:43   Maybe they have similar parts fulfilling similar functions, but then it look like anyway

00:00:47   They have that thing where you can find out what tab is making the noise like Safari has it in Chrome has it they have some

00:00:52   Way for you to find the tab that's making the noise which is like oh, that's great. This is a good feature

00:00:56   They recognize this this need it's annoying when you can't find the tab that's making noise and you find it

00:01:01   And you know kill it or close it

00:01:02   But then when you relaunch the browser and it like restores the state of your previous session

00:01:08   All of the tabs that were they could possibly make noise like everything just starts auto-playing

00:01:14   Yeah, you have seven seven YouTube videos, and they all start playing. It's like well

00:01:17   You're so close you're like you give me the information to stop one when they start spontaneously or I lose track

00:01:22   And you don't auto play when tabs load in the background

00:01:25   But when I relaunch from, you know, and restore a state, it says, "You know what?

00:01:29   I bet this person wants seven YouTube videos to all play at the same time.

00:01:33   Let me do that."

00:01:34   And then, yes, I can find them and stop them all one by one.

00:01:37   You know what a solution to this problem is, Jon?

00:01:40   Having only a couple of tabs open.

00:01:42   That is a completely reasonable solution.

00:01:45   It doesn't take many.

00:01:46   Like, I think I only had four tabs playing, but, you know, because I had a bunch of YouTube

00:01:50   videos up.

00:01:51   I was doing YouTube research, right?

00:01:53   And you have a bunch of videos opening tabs, which is fine.

00:01:55   watch them one at a time, you leave them open, some of them are like paused in the

00:01:58   middle, but then you relaunch your browser for whatever reason and they all

00:02:02   start playing.

00:02:03   [Music]

00:02:04   All right, so I have some follow-up about my MacBook/Macbook1/MacbookAdorable.

00:02:10   You hate it already?

00:02:11   No, no, no, no. There are people that are very perturbed about the

00:02:15   MacBookAdorable nickname, and I think you're monsters. Not really, but I don't

00:02:20   understand why people are so upset by this. A lot of people wrote in to

00:02:24   recommend a particular kind of port replicator that apparently will solve all of my problems

00:02:29   because it has power in, it has Ethernet, it has USB ports, it has an SD card reader,

00:02:34   and on the surface they are correct.

00:02:36   But the reason I didn't buy this was a couple.

00:02:39   One, it was very expensive, although the sum total of the other dongles I got was probably

00:02:44   at least as much, if not more, than this is.

00:02:46   We'll put an example in the show notes, but there appear to be like seven different manufacturers

00:02:51   that I'll white label, or excuse me,

00:02:52   several different companies that I'll white label

00:02:54   the same thing that's manufactured by gosh knows who.

00:02:57   But anyway, the main reason I was not terribly interested

00:03:00   in this is from what I had seen

00:03:03   when I did a little bit of research,

00:03:05   in order to get the Ethernet port to work,

00:03:09   you have to install a kernel extension,

00:03:12   like a specific driver or whatever.

00:03:14   And I was like, nope, I'm out.

00:03:16   And that was problem number one.

00:03:18   And problem number two is it looks very small,

00:03:22   and it appears on the surface to be very small,

00:03:26   but in actuality, it is quite large,

00:03:29   or larger than I would want.

00:03:31   And like when I went to Chicago last week with the adorable,

00:03:34   I didn't bring the ethernet/USB, I almost said hub,

00:03:38   I guess it is kind of a hub,

00:03:39   but anyway, I didn't bring that dongle.

00:03:40   I only brought the HDMI dongle,

00:03:42   which we actually used more than a couple of times,

00:03:45   and it worked out very nicely.

00:03:46   But my point is that I do like the flexibility of only bringing the one or ones that I absolutely need,

00:03:53   and not bringing the one or ones that I don't need.

00:03:56   So I thought I would just mention that, but I do appreciate the feedback.

00:03:59   I honestly do, because sometimes I don't see everything.

00:04:02   And then finally, I just wanted to point out that I also wrote a blog post, a review of my MacBook Adorable,

00:04:09   so if you want many more words than we've already spoken on this podcast about the MacBook,

00:04:15   feel free to check that out.

00:04:16   - That was good, by the way. - That was good.

00:04:17   - I enjoyed that review. - Oh, thanks.

00:04:19   Thanks, I appreciate it.

00:04:20   It was actually a lot longer than I intended,

00:04:21   and for a while I thought,

00:04:23   hmm, maybe I'll go through and try to cut what I can,

00:04:25   and then I thought, you know what?

00:04:26   I'm just gonna leave it, 'cause I have a lot to say,

00:04:27   'cause I really like this thing.

00:04:29   So anyway, we will put links in the show notes,

00:04:32   but yeah, I really like this adorable.

00:04:34   It is not the fastest thing in the world,

00:04:36   but it is quick enough for me, and that's all that matters.

00:04:40   Speaking of these sorts of things,

00:04:41   Connor Brooks writes in and says,

00:04:43   here's some comparison pictures of the 2016 versus 2017 keycaps.

00:04:49   There's been a small revision.

00:04:51   Connor says, "I've heard that the retrofit is known internally as a shim kit."

00:04:56   And to be honest with you, I can't really see the difference,

00:04:59   which probably means I'm completely missing it.

00:05:01   I'm sure this picture's completely fine.

00:05:03   - I couldn't see it either. - Okay, good.

00:05:04   That makes me feel a little better.

00:05:05   Yeah, I wish there was, like, red arrows or circle.

00:05:08   Like, "Look here! Here's the difference."

00:05:10   - I went back and forth and I'm like,

00:05:12   I could not figure it out.

00:05:13   - Am I looking at the underside of the key caps?

00:05:15   - I will say though, I have had a chance to,

00:05:17   I got a chance to try typing on a 2017 MacBook Pro

00:05:21   in a store and it really is actually a different feeling.

00:05:26   It is not like a dramatic difference,

00:05:29   it doesn't feel like a whole different type of keyboard,

00:05:32   but it does feel a little softer,

00:05:34   like almost as if they put like a rubber mat

00:05:36   under all the keys, so like you're,

00:05:39   when you bottom out the key,

00:05:40   it feels like you're bottoming out on something rubbery

00:05:43   instead of something flat.

00:05:45   And it sounds different as well.

00:05:47   So I think that actually is a nice improvement.

00:05:49   - Is it quieter?

00:05:50   - Slightly, yeah.

00:05:51   It's a little more dull sounding

00:05:52   and a little more dull feeling.

00:05:54   Like it really does feel like

00:05:55   they just added some rubber somewhere,

00:05:57   which I think is actually what they did.

00:05:59   But it is, it seems like it's better.

00:06:03   I still would not describe this as a good keyboard,

00:06:05   but they are incrementally making it more tolerable.

00:06:08   and if they also took this opportunity

00:06:11   to fix whatever was causing the keys to stick and fail,

00:06:14   then I hope they did. - Let's not get too aggressive.

00:06:16   - I know, but-- - I hope so, but--

00:06:18   - Yeah, I hope they did, but yeah.

00:06:20   And maybe this is it, maybe it needed some kind of,

00:06:22   you know, rubber O-ring around a certain part or something.

00:06:26   I don't know the details, but the 2017s

00:06:29   do definitely feel slightly but noticeably different.

00:06:33   - Yeah, I gotta tell you, and I talk about this

00:06:35   in my review, so I'm not gonna belabor it,

00:06:37   but when I first got the keyboard, I was like, ugh.

00:06:40   I mean, I knew what I was getting into,

00:06:41   but at the same time, ugh.

00:06:43   And then I kinda got into like the, eh, it'll work.

00:06:46   And I actually kinda like it now.

00:06:49   - That's it!

00:06:50   - I don't know if I like that I like it though,

00:06:52   because I love my Magic Keyboard.

00:06:55   I would still take my Magic Keyboard.

00:06:56   - You've crossed over to the side now.

00:06:57   You can never come back.

00:06:59   - I know, so I do prefer the Magic Keyboard,

00:07:02   and I think in no small part,

00:07:03   because I prefer a deeper throw

00:07:05   when I, when I, is that the right term for it? Basically I want, I want more travel when I push the key.

00:07:10   I want the key, I want the key to depress whatever amount. I don't know what the amount is on the Magic Keyboard,

00:07:15   but I find that to be perfect. And on the, on the MacBook, it does not travel into the, into the MacBook as much as I would like.

00:07:22   And that still frustrates me a little bit, but in a way, and I couldn't figure out how to describe it, and, and only you guys,

00:07:29   and, you know, a handful of people that read the review, will truly understand what I meant.

00:07:33   But the only way I can describe it is the difference between like a proper shifter on a rear-wheel drive car

00:07:40   You know where like the shifter is sitting directly over the transmission

00:07:45   So there's like rods that are connecting the shifter that you hold in your hand to the transmission itself

00:07:50   Like that feeling of sturdiness and notchiness and just good feeling that's what the adorable keyboard feels like

00:07:59   Whereas, especially the onboard keyboard on my older MacBook Pro, so before they went to these new style keyboards,

00:08:05   that feels like, and I've actually understood Hondas to have very good shift linkages, but like my Saturn, which admittedly, yes,

00:08:12   it's a Saturn, haha, I get it.

00:08:13   But the Saturn had the sloppiest, worst, most disgusting shift linkage in the world, where you could shimmy the stick left and right like an inch

00:08:20   either direction while the thing is in gear. It was terrible.

00:08:23   And that's what the old MacBook Pro feels like.

00:08:26   And the Magic Keyboard is closer to the Adorables keyboard,

00:08:31   but not quite as sturdy.

00:08:33   And that sturdiness is actually really, really, really nice.

00:08:38   And I really enjoy it.

00:08:39   And it seems so silly.

00:08:40   And if I was listening to this, not having really had this

00:08:43   for a while, I would think, you are bananas.

00:08:46   That sturdy keyboard, what?

00:08:48   But that's the best way I can think of to describe it.

00:08:51   And I don't know if your MacBook, what are we calling yours?

00:08:55   The MacBook Escape?

00:08:56   That has the same keyboard that this does, doesn't it?

00:09:00   - Well, probably not, because you probably have

00:09:02   the new 2017 keys on that.

00:09:04   - Oh, right, right, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, right, okay.

00:09:06   - But it's very similar.

00:09:07   - Do you find it to be more sturdy?

00:09:10   Is that a decent adjective for it?

00:09:11   Can you figure out a better way to describe it?

00:09:13   - I know what you mean.

00:09:14   It's basically like what Johnny Ive

00:09:16   in his White World video described as precise or stable.

00:09:19   And so I know the feeling.

00:09:21   Unfortunately, I hesitate to use the word sturdy

00:09:23   because it's unreliable in the 2016 that I have,

00:09:26   which is unfortunate.

00:09:28   And I haven't gotten it replaced by the AppleCare bar yet

00:09:31   because I just don't, I haven't at the time,

00:09:34   and I need to use this computer.

00:09:36   But yeah, so assuming that I can get this fixed,

00:09:40   it'll then be probably the same keyboard,

00:09:42   and then it will be precise and stable

00:09:44   and sturdy and everything else,

00:09:45   but until then, I can't agree with the specific word sturdy

00:09:48   because mine keeps failing.

00:09:50   - Fair enough.

00:09:51   So coming back to the actual point we're trying to make,

00:09:53   none of the three of us can see the difference

00:09:55   in these two pictures?

00:09:57   - No, but there is a difference.

00:09:58   - I want Connor to write back in

00:10:00   and mark up these diagrams or, you know,

00:10:03   tell us what we're supposed to be seeing

00:10:05   'cause I've looked at them for a long time

00:10:07   and I'm not getting it.

00:10:09   - I don't doubt that this is accurate

00:10:12   and I'm not trying to say that this is fake news.

00:10:15   It's just that for my eyes, I cannot tell the difference.

00:10:18   I'm sure there's a difference,

00:10:19   but darned if I can see where it is.

00:10:21   All right, moving on.

00:10:23   Joseph writes, "A very, very fascinating email about USB-C."

00:10:28   - Yeah, this was awesome.

00:10:30   'Cause last episode, I had complained that

00:10:34   one of the problems with the USB-C lifestyle

00:10:36   is that you kind of can't go all in on it yet.

00:10:39   Because, see, to me, one thing I just didn't really

00:10:42   ever come around to saying, but I should've said is,

00:10:44   like, my goal here is, okay, if I have a laptop

00:10:47   that has all USB-C ports on it,

00:10:49   let me go to Amazon and just buy all new cables

00:10:52   for everything that end in USB-C.

00:10:54   And then I can totally avoid having to use

00:10:57   weird adapters all over the place for almost anything.

00:10:59   I'll just get USB-C cables for all my stuff.

00:11:02   And I can get a couple of new things,

00:11:04   like a USB-C card reader, a couple of things,

00:11:07   and then I'm converted.

00:11:08   And then I can just bring USB-C cables with me on trips.

00:11:11   That is the dream.

00:11:12   And that is pretty much impossible to do in practice,

00:11:16   or it's hard to do in practice because,

00:11:19   my complaint last time was basically,

00:11:20   there are no USB-C hubs that multiply USB-C ports

00:11:24   to more USB-C ports.

00:11:26   The only one I knew of was the one that's inside

00:11:29   the LG 5K display, which converts one to three,

00:11:34   and those are just USB-C 3.1, not Thunderbolt

00:11:38   or DisplayPort, which we'll get to in a second.

00:11:40   All week, people have been sending me hubs,

00:11:44   and they say, "Oh, I think this does it."

00:11:46   almost none of them actually do.

00:11:48   Almost every other hub that people sent me this past week,

00:11:52   the only thing it did was it had USB-C in port

00:11:56   and a single USB-C out port.

00:11:58   So the best it could do is not lose you the port,

00:12:02   but it still would not create more.

00:12:04   The only product I found that actually created more,

00:12:08   there's a Belkin hub for like 30 bucks.

00:12:11   It has one star reviews everywhere,

00:12:14   because it's totally passive and unpowered,

00:12:17   it converts one USB-C port to two USB-C ports

00:12:20   and two USB-A ports.

00:12:22   And I actually bought one, I have one right here,

00:12:24   it's fine, it is unpowered, so it can't really charge

00:12:27   anything meaningfully and you can't plug in

00:12:29   like Hydra current things to it, but,

00:12:32   and the reason it has one star reviews everywhere

00:12:34   is that nobody expected that when they bought it,

00:12:37   and it also does not do power pass through,

00:12:38   so KSC, it wouldn't help you at all,

00:12:40   'cause you couldn't charge your Macbook Adorable

00:12:42   while this was plugged in.

00:12:43   But if you have anything but a MacBook One,

00:12:45   so if you have any more than one USB port,

00:12:48   you can plug this into one of the second ones

00:12:49   that's not being used for power,

00:12:50   and you can turn one port into two.

00:12:52   So this is the only thing out there.

00:12:54   And everything else does not do this.

00:12:58   And so Joseph's email,

00:12:59   which is full of wonderful information about USB-C spec

00:13:03   that he's very familiar with,

00:13:05   basically tells us why it's so,

00:13:07   basically why aren't there hubs out there

00:13:10   that multiply USB-C ports into more USB-C ports

00:13:14   with the same capabilities as the ones built into the laptop.

00:13:17   - Right, and so I'm gonna read most of this email.

00:13:20   It's a little bit on the long side,

00:13:21   especially for feedback email, but it's fascinating

00:13:23   and I think it's worth it, so go on.

00:13:25   Go on this journey with me, kids.

00:13:27   The problem, this is Joseph now,

00:13:28   the problem with doing USB-C hubs is the spec.

00:13:30   USB-C has alternate modes.

00:13:33   There's Thunderbolt and DisplayPort.

00:13:34   When you go into Thunderbolt mode,

00:13:36   the wires are completely disconnected

00:13:37   from the USB controller,

00:13:38   hand it over to the Thunderbolt controller. When you go into the DisplayPort mode, the

00:13:42   wires are completely disconnected from the USB controller and handed over to the DisplayController.

00:13:46   The key here is that this is all done at connection time, so I think you can see the problems

00:13:50   with hubs. If you plug in a hub and nothing's plugged into it from below, then what is it?

00:13:55   Well, it's a USB hub, right? So now the upstream lanes from that hub are USB and this is connected

00:13:59   inside the PC or Mac as USB. But those ports below the hub haven't changed. They're still

00:14:04   the same USB-C connector, which can have Thunderbolt or DisplayPort devices plugged in.

00:14:09   So now you go to plug in a display to the downstream hub's ports.

00:14:12   Well, it can't be a display, because that would mean you need the upstream port to be

00:14:16   renegotiated as a display.

00:14:18   You can force a renegotiation, but if you did that, then none of the other ports downstream

00:14:22   from the hub can now be USB ports, because the upstream port is no longer USB, it's DisplayPort.

00:14:28   And you can see a similar issue for Thunderbolt.

00:14:31   Now there's an interesting thing here, and I'm sure somebody at Apple has thought of

00:14:34   it.

00:14:35   Thunderbolt itself can carry a display port.

00:14:38   It's a time multiplex bus.

00:14:39   And since Thunderbolt is really just PCI Express over a cable with the same multiplexing ability

00:14:43   of a display, you can build a Thunderbolt hub or dock that has a USB-C capable host

00:14:48   controller in it.

00:14:50   And thus the upstream is Thunderbolt, but the downstream ports can still be USB-C because

00:14:54   those ports are now "root ports."

00:14:57   I think Thunderbolt adopting the USB-C connector here is like a Trojan horse.

00:15:01   call it USB-C, but instead it's really Thunderbolt,

00:15:04   and Thunderbolt takes over the world

00:15:06   from within the USB-C spec by making the default behavior

00:15:10   of USB-C to be the Thunderbolt alternate mode.

00:15:14   That is fascinating.

00:15:16   I read this email and was like, wow, this is a lot of text.

00:15:18   This is the sort of email I would normally be like,

00:15:20   okay, whatever, I am so glad I actually spent the time,

00:15:24   'cause we actually did cut some of it.

00:15:26   This was one of my favorite feedback emails ever.

00:15:28   and it tells you basically everything you need to know.

00:15:31   - Yeah, so basically-- - I have a feeling, however,

00:15:33   yeah, that you guys have some thoughts on this.

00:15:35   - Yeah, I mean, basically, to summarize,

00:15:37   like, because of the way it works,

00:15:38   you basically can't make a hub that is reasonably good

00:15:43   that multiplies the ports that are on the laptop

00:15:46   that have all the same capabilities.

00:15:48   So you're basically never gonna get one

00:15:50   that can multiply to, like, more displays

00:15:54   or more very high-speed Thunderbolt peripherals.

00:15:58   The problem is that you buy USB-C stuff,

00:16:01   you don't really, unless you're paying

00:16:03   really close attention and you're a huge nerd,

00:16:05   you don't really know which alternate mode,

00:16:08   if any, it needs to work.

00:16:10   Like, I have this car reader, I have some Ethernet adapters,

00:16:13   and it's like, well, are any of these Thunderbolt devices,

00:16:16   or are they all USB-C devices?

00:16:18   I don't actually know.

00:16:20   And as a nerd, I can figure out, well,

00:16:21   they're probably not Thunderbolt devices,

00:16:23   because that would be overkill.

00:16:25   But how are regular people supposed to navigate

00:16:28   this weird world?

00:16:29   They tried to make this connector this one unified thing

00:16:33   and this will solve all of our problems,

00:16:35   but in reality, this is a world of hurt.

00:16:38   And it's complicated by things like,

00:16:40   by these alternate modes, where yeah, it's nice

00:16:42   that you can put displays and Thunderbolt

00:16:44   over the same connector and stuff,

00:16:48   but like, KC's MacBook One doesn't have Thunderbolt.

00:16:51   It only has USB-C. - Bingo.

00:16:53   I was just about to interrupt you and say exactly that

00:16:55   because that reminded me one of the things that people would, or one of the common themes

00:16:58   amongst what people suggested for alternate dongles for me is, "Oh, use this thing that

00:17:04   has everything you want." And a lot of the times it did, but it was Thunderbolt and not

00:17:08   USB-C. And it wasn't until I got the adorable that it was really made clear to me that,

00:17:13   that just like you said, Marco, this, this machine does have USB-C, but it does not support

00:17:18   Thunderbolt via that connector. So, so I have a very small subset of things that I can use

00:17:25   that are all on the same physical connector,

00:17:27   but internally are very, very different.

00:17:29   - Yeah, and so this whole,

00:17:31   these connectors are kind of a mess.

00:17:33   Like the whole spec, the way the standard works,

00:17:35   it's kind of, like if you just look at USB-C as USB 3.1

00:17:39   as the protocol, and you only connect USB 3.1

00:17:43   or three devices to it, that's great.

00:17:45   Then it's just a smaller connector for the standard

00:17:47   we already had before with USB 3.0, and it's great,

00:17:49   'cause there's lots of USB devices out there,

00:17:51   and USB 3.0 is a great standard, relatively speaking,

00:17:54   and we can connect everything, that's fine.

00:17:56   The problem comes like,

00:17:58   that there's all these little asterisks on it,

00:18:00   and that's going to just,

00:18:01   and those asterisks apply to devices,

00:18:04   computers, cables, and hubs.

00:18:06   All four of those things can screw this up in some way

00:18:10   and make something that you bought just not work

00:18:12   for a reason that to most people would be a mystery.

00:18:15   And even though the computer can put up

00:18:17   some kind of weird dialogue if it's smart,

00:18:19   that's still not really helping the problem.

00:18:21   So it's nice that they unified this all into one connector, but the implementation details

00:18:26   make it kind of a mess.

00:18:27   So the idea of Thunderbolt being like, you know, the catch-all or the Trojan horse, like

00:18:32   "Haha, everyone's going to put these ports in their machines," but they'll eventually

00:18:35   learn that, you know, it's neat that you can connect a display and also a USB device to

00:18:40   that thing, but really the only protocol that can tunnel everything over it and multiply

00:18:44   stuff out is Thunderbolt.

00:18:46   So Thunderbolt will take over the world because it's the superset of everything.

00:18:49   Like won't everybody just make everything Thunderbolt?

00:18:52   Because once they learn, oh, you know, if you, like this email says, if you plug in

00:18:56   a hub, the thing has to decide whether it is, you know, sending through DisplayPort

00:19:02   or USB or Thunderbolt, then why wouldn't everybody just do Thunderbolt?

00:19:05   And the reason everyone won't do Thunderbolt is because it's more expensive.

00:19:08   It's more expensive everywhere.

00:19:09   It's more expensive in the cables, in the hardware that's in the hubs, in the peripherals.

00:19:14   Like at USB is just cheaper to implement.

00:19:16   So it's going to be very difficult for Thunderbolt to take over everywhere.

00:19:21   Now maybe Intel opening up a Thunderbolt spec will help with this because people can make

00:19:24   like knockoff controllers legally, not knockoffs, but like legally they can implement their

00:19:28   own spec, but I think it's just more expensive to implement.

00:19:31   Even if you don't have to do the active cables with the chips in them because you have a

00:19:34   low speed device or whatever, I'm not entirely sure that we're going to get the Thunderbolt

00:19:39   everywhere.

00:19:40   Now I think it will help for the high end devices where people are spending gobs of

00:19:44   money on the, you know, the upcoming Mac Pro and there's a bunch of Thunderbolt peripherals

00:19:48   that you can attach to it and there's tons of, you know, PCI Express lanes inside the

00:19:52   box and, you know, that I think it will probably live on the high end, but for the medium to

00:19:56   low end, like people just using their laptops around, it's almost like, this is yet another

00:20:02   problem that more ports solve in theory.

00:20:03   Again, I'm not sure how many lanes there are, but if, you know, if you've got this port

00:20:07   like, oh, this one is connected to a display, so it has to be a display and this one is

00:20:11   USB, so it's connected to my USB hub.

00:20:13   Like if you can have more ports and have each individual port decide what it wants to be

00:20:17   independently, but you probably can't do completely independently once you reach a certain number

00:20:21   of ports because there's just not enough, you know, controllers on the inside.

00:20:24   But surely, you know, in Casey's case, if you had one more port, then one port could

00:20:30   decide, well, he's going to burn one on power.

00:20:32   So one is power, and then one is USB, and then one is display.

00:20:37   So say you had a three-port computer, those three ports and those three ports could decide

00:20:41   individually what they wanted to be if there was sufficient, you know, controller hardware

00:20:44   and independence inside the box. Maybe, maybe forget about Casey's thing. Sorry, adorable,

00:20:47   you're stuck. Go to Marco's computer. Surely Marco's computer, you could put four ports

00:20:53   in that thing, one of them would be power and three other ones, and then those three

00:20:56   ports can decide what they want to be. And then you get the advantage of having a bunch

00:21:00   of uniform ports in your computer that are all the same shape and size, and you just

00:21:04   put display in this one and put your hub in this one and put your power in that one and

00:21:07   they all just work. But once it daisy chains out it's like well what are you even daisy

00:21:11   chaining? Like you can't you can't sweep that under the carpet because it's not like there's

00:21:15   one magic protocol that does everything. Well there kind of is, it's Thunderbolt but it's

00:21:19   the most expensive one and that isn't on all your peripherals. So every time you plug something

00:21:24   in you're sort of deciding what this port is going to be and plugging in a box that

00:21:30   has a bunch of other ports on it you've basically just decided that the thing has to be Thunderbolt

00:21:34   and now everything is expensive.

00:21:35   (laughing)

00:21:37   - Yeah, so anyway, definitely on the Hall of Fame for me

00:21:40   for great feedback emails, really love that.

00:21:42   - Yeah.

00:21:43   - Marco, you have some HomePod follow-up,

00:21:46   according to the show notes? - I do.

00:21:47   - Tell me more.

00:21:48   - Okay, so this is probably my second favorite follow-up

00:21:52   in the history of follow-up.

00:21:53   (laughing)

00:21:54   My favorite follow-up in the history of follow-up

00:21:55   is there was an old episode of,

00:21:57   it was either Connected or the Connected's predecessor

00:22:00   show The Prompt.

00:22:01   One of those shows, Mike had misstated his own age,

00:22:05   he was off by one, and a listener wrote in the next episode

00:22:08   to correct him on his own age.

00:22:11   That's my favorite follow-up ever.

00:22:13   This is my second favorite follow-up ever.

00:22:14   We spent about a half hour, a couple episodes ago,

00:22:18   speculating about whether the HomePod had a screen or not.

00:22:22   And one guy even wrote in to say,

00:22:24   it was somebody basically, like a tipster about it,

00:22:27   saying here's how it's actually implemented,

00:22:29   there's this diffuser and there's these LEDs below it

00:22:31   and it's not really a screen,

00:22:32   but it might be a screen later on.

00:22:34   And we talked about this for like a half hour.

00:22:37   It turns out none of us thought to check Apple's site.

00:22:39   But Rob Buckhouse did.

00:22:41   (laughing)

00:22:42   And Rob Buckhouse writes in to say,

00:22:45   "Apple's site clears us up pretty well.

00:22:47   "There's a section on the HomePod page that says,

00:22:51   "tap the top of HomePod to play, pause,

00:22:53   "or adjust the volume.

00:22:54   "It also shows you when Siri is listening

00:22:56   with an LED waveform that animates with your every word.

00:22:59   Yeah, I had read that when we did the show. That's why we talked about the idea of it

00:23:02   being like, "Okay, well, maybe this is just a temporary one and they'll put the real screen

00:23:06   on it later, so who knows?" I thought we had all read the website at the time we were discussing

00:23:10   it. Yeah, but I think if Apple's putting this

00:23:12   on their product page saying, "This is what HomePod does and this is the thing it has,"

00:23:17   that's it. That's final. That's what they're doing.

00:23:19   If you read the text, you could describe something as an LED waveform even if it's a screen,

00:23:24   You know how they have like LED TVs?

00:23:25   They wouldn't say LED.

00:23:27   I know.

00:23:28   LED TVs aren't really LED TVs either.

00:23:30   And if it was OLED, it would say OLED.

00:23:33   Like it's not.

00:23:34   And if it was an LCD screen, it would say LCD,

00:23:37   or it wouldn't say anything at all.

00:23:38   But like I said, if they wanted to change this to a screen,

00:23:42   they wouldn't have to change that copy.

00:23:43   But either way, as I said on the show,

00:23:47   this is not the type of thing that you

00:23:48   would do as a stopgap, right?

00:23:51   Because it's just too complicated.

00:23:53   It's too complicated and too polished to have in there as a stopgap.

00:23:58   If they were going to make it a bitmap display, they would already have done that or they

00:24:02   wouldn't have spent all this time on this weird thing.

00:24:05   iFixit will show us exactly how many colored LEDs are inside there.

00:24:11   But it's probably fewer than are in the Google Home, because I think Google Home, like I

00:24:14   said, Google Home has like a ring of them.

00:24:16   So it's got a lot.

00:24:17   This probably just has, I don't know, maybe 20?

00:24:20   Who knows?

00:24:22   We are sponsored this week by Fracture,

00:24:24   who prints vivid color photos directly on glass.

00:24:27   Visit fractureme.com/podcast for more info.

00:24:31   Fracture is a photo decor company

00:24:33   that's out to rescue your favorite photos

00:24:35   from the digital ether.

00:24:36   They print photos directly onto glass

00:24:39   with a laser cut rigid backing

00:24:40   so it's ready to hang up right out of the box.

00:24:42   They even include the wall anchor.

00:24:44   All you have to do is upload a digital photo

00:24:47   and pick your size.

00:24:48   It is that simple.

00:24:50   And the Fracture printing process

00:24:51   makes the color and contrast really pop.

00:24:54   And the sleek edge-to-edge frameless design

00:24:57   of these wonderful pieces of glass

00:24:59   lets your photo stand out

00:25:00   and it matches pretty much any decorating style.

00:25:03   And again, you don't have to get these framed.

00:25:04   They are their own thing already.

00:25:06   So you hang it up, it's ready to go, and it looks great.

00:25:10   With Fracture, you can bring a special memory to life,

00:25:12   and they also make fantastic gifts.

00:25:15   If you wanna get them for the special people in your life,

00:25:17   maybe you take a photo of your kid or your dog

00:25:19   and give it to their grandparents.

00:25:22   They really appreciate that.

00:25:23   These make wonderful gifts.

00:25:24   We've given lots of them over time.

00:25:26   Our house is filled with fractures.

00:25:28   They're amazing.

00:25:29   They look great.

00:25:29   We get compliments on them all the time.

00:25:31   Tiff actually recently ordered a giant one.

00:25:33   It's something like two feet wide and it looks fantastic.

00:25:38   It comes in a massive box.

00:25:39   It's pretty great.

00:25:40   They scale up from the size of a CD cover

00:25:42   all the way up to that and it looks great.

00:25:45   Fracture comes with a 60-day happiness guarantee

00:25:47   on all prints, so you're sure to love your order.

00:25:49   and each fracture is handmade in Gainesville, Florida

00:25:52   from US source materials in a carbon neutral factory.

00:25:55   For more information and 10% off your first order,

00:25:58   visit fractureme.com/podcast.

00:26:01   And then they're gonna give you a one question survey

00:26:03   that basically just asks you,

00:26:04   what podcast did you hear about this from?

00:26:06   So make sure you put ATP in there

00:26:08   so that they know you came from here.

00:26:10   It helps support us and it helps tell them

00:26:11   where their ads are working, so it's great for everybody.

00:26:13   Once again, to get 10% off your first order,

00:26:15   go to fractureme.com/podcast.

00:26:19   and make sure to tell them that ATP sent you.

00:26:21   Thank you very much to Fracture for sponsoring our show.

00:26:24   (upbeat music)

00:26:26   - Speaking of new family members, Marco,

00:26:30   you have welcomed a new family member to your house.

00:26:33   Can you tell us about this?

00:26:34   - Well, there's some asterisks on that.

00:26:36   (laughing)

00:26:37   - Did you already return it?

00:26:38   Is that the asterisk?

00:26:39   - Today I received my pre-order of the Echo Show,

00:26:44   the new Amazon Echo device with the screen.

00:26:49   And the reviews had come out yesterday or the day before,

00:26:52   and the reviews showed it in different angles

00:26:56   and in real life.

00:26:57   Before this, when we preordered,

00:26:59   we were only shown the product shots,

00:27:01   which were taken at a very careful angle.

00:27:03   And even at that very ideal, flattering angle,

00:27:07   this looked like a pretty ugly product,

00:27:09   but I thought, okay, but you know,

00:27:11   I love the Echo cylinder, it's really useful.

00:27:13   We use it all the time, and there are contexts

00:27:17   in which it would be nice to have a screen.

00:27:19   You know, there's, you know, timers especially,

00:27:22   timers are the big one, you can watch a timer countdown.

00:27:24   Or like a lot of, like Tiff will ask it

00:27:25   about the weather in the morning,

00:27:26   it would be nice to see that, as opposed to, you know,

00:27:28   just having to sit through this like four sentence long

00:27:32   description of the weather, you know, so.

00:27:34   A screen would be helpful, we thought.

00:27:37   And I convinced Tiff, despite the way it looked,

00:27:40   to let me preorder one and try it.

00:27:42   So we get it here.

00:27:45   Set it up, plug it in, and boy,

00:27:47   the thing is hideous in person.

00:27:49   I mean, it is really ugly in person.

00:27:51   And if you look at all the reviews,

00:27:53   and we got the white one too,

00:27:54   I figured that would be a little bit less hideous.

00:27:56   No, it's just as hideous.

00:27:58   - So is it uglier than the original Kindle?

00:28:01   - No, but it is larger.

00:28:03   - All right, yeah, so I was gonna say,

00:28:06   I think it is, it can't be uglier,

00:28:08   but it does impose, the ugliest that it has,

00:28:12   it does impose that more in your face

00:28:13   than the original Kindle.

00:28:15   That is it right there.

00:28:17   And so let me expand on that.

00:28:18   (laughs)

00:28:19   So basically, so it would plug it in.

00:28:23   And now, because I hadn't opened up the Alexa app

00:28:27   in a long time, I had not yet connected it

00:28:30   to try to do its FaceTime or calling thing.

00:28:34   So I open it up, in order to set this up,

00:28:36   I'm required to give the Alexa app my real name

00:28:40   and confirm it, and then it really tries hard

00:28:43   to get me to give it a phone number

00:28:44   and access to my contact list so we can periodically

00:28:47   sync it with the Amazon service.

00:28:49   And I say no, no, no, and there's no,

00:28:50   you can skip that part, you can skip the contact

00:28:52   and phone number part, but you can't skip the name part

00:28:54   and I don't see any way to opt out of calling completely.

00:28:58   I don't want people calling me on my Echo.

00:29:02   I know Amazon just launched the service where they,

00:29:04   you know, they're doing, they have their own

00:29:06   like FaceTime network.

00:29:08   I could not possibly care less

00:29:10   or be less interested in using it.

00:29:12   Like we have a million other ways to do that now

00:29:14   they're all better and not run by creepy companies like Amazon. So that the whole idea of being

00:29:18   forced to set this up and not having a clear opt-out really put me off. So I was already

00:29:23   kind of unhappy and maybe that colored my later reaction. So we set the thing up, first

00:29:29   thing I have to do is a software update. Okay fine. A software update takes forever. So

00:29:33   can't walk away, you know, obviously they couldn't update the software, you know, before

00:29:38   they shipped it to me two days ago, but okay. And then the thing finally boots up and the

00:29:45   screen is super bright and I know we can probably change that, but the screen is super bright

00:29:51   and it's just blaring news headlines at you that you, and it's like some celebrity baby

00:29:59   thing, I don't care at all, like the last thing I want is for this screen to be blaring

00:30:06   visually blaring news headlines at me. And we tried a couple things, okay I guess we'll

00:30:11   set this up, like we don't have calendars paired yet so the counter screen isn't that

00:30:14   useful yet but do I really want to give Amazon access to my calendar? Well maybe not, but

00:30:18   maybe we will. Okay I won't judge it on that. Let's try playing some music. So the first

00:30:24   thing is it completely fails to recognize my Amazon music, whatever the subscription

00:30:30   is that is on the Echo, like the premium thing for the Echo that's like four bucks a month,

00:30:34   We have that, and it totally failed to recognize it.

00:30:37   I don't know why.

00:30:38   It eventually started working.

00:30:39   The sound quality on it is really poor.

00:30:44   It is only a very small improvement over the Echo Cylinder.

00:30:49   And I don't care for that.

00:30:51   They had all this time, this device costs $230,

00:30:56   and granted, yes, it has a screen and everything,

00:30:58   so that's a pretty good price for what it is.

00:31:00   But they couldn't improve the sound quality?

00:31:02   That's like the one major problem with the Echo Cylinder,

00:31:04   the sound quality.

00:31:05   And they really, I would say they almost didn't

00:31:08   improve it at all.

00:31:09   It's very, very close to the old one.

00:31:11   And as we're using it, it just keeps blaring

00:31:16   this screen at us.

00:31:19   And Tiff was very quickly out of love,

00:31:22   and I very quickly followed.

00:31:24   Because what I realized was,

00:31:26   regardless of what anyone else thinks of this product,

00:31:29   I had made a mistake in thinking it was right for us.

00:31:31   because one thing that I now realize in retrospect

00:31:35   that we like about the echo cylinder

00:31:38   is that it does not take visual attention

00:31:41   away from anything.

00:31:42   It is this, it's not pretty, but it's discreet.

00:31:46   It's this black cylinder you put somewhere,

00:31:47   it comes in white too now,

00:31:48   so it's the cylinder you put somewhere.

00:31:50   And you don't really ever have to look at it.

00:31:53   It doesn't draw attention to itself.

00:31:56   So the echo cylinder fits into your life

00:31:59   in a more discreet way.

00:32:01   The Echo Show with the screen draws attention in.

00:32:05   It draws your eyes in.

00:32:07   It takes attention out of the room.

00:32:09   And it does it for something that really doesn't deserve

00:32:13   that kind of attention.

00:32:14   It is just this screen in your kitchen

00:32:17   that's telling you about Kanye's baby or whatever.

00:32:20   And I could not possibly,

00:32:22   and I'm sure I could probably configure those things

00:32:25   in some different way,

00:32:27   It just like, this thing draws your eye

00:32:30   and it's designed to do that.

00:32:31   And it's, Amazon's stuff is not good enough

00:32:34   to make it worth using their GUIs.

00:32:37   And I kind of knew that already

00:32:39   and I don't know why I thought those would be any different.

00:32:41   But for some reason I thought this would be different

00:32:42   and that was a mistake.

00:32:43   So this thing is not for us at all.

00:32:47   So I'm returning it.

00:32:48   - Oh, that's disappointing, but.

00:32:50   - Maybe you got the Amazon Echo Show with special offers.

00:32:54   (laughing)

00:32:54   bucks more, get one without special offers.

00:32:57   - Yeah, and one of the things that makes me sad about this

00:33:02   is I realize like, what if there is a future

00:33:07   where they make their app even worse

00:33:10   and they require my calling information or whatever else

00:33:15   or they require more stuff I don't wanna give them.

00:33:17   Or if there's a future in which all Echo's have screens

00:33:21   and there is no more option to get one without it

00:33:23   or that the ones without screens start sucking

00:33:25   because the service assumes you always have one

00:33:28   or something like that.

00:33:30   It made me realize quite how fragile this ecosystem is

00:33:33   because this was depending on Amazon doing this

00:33:35   one cool thing, just keep doing it.

00:33:38   This one thing they made is great.

00:33:39   The cylinders, they're great, just keep doing that.

00:33:42   But instead, they're broadening out into these weird,

00:33:44   creepy things like the look and the show

00:33:47   that are going in a direction that I really don't like.

00:33:50   And again, if you listeners like this stuff, that's fine.

00:33:55   All I'm saying is this was dramatically not for us

00:33:58   and not the kind of thing we were looking for,

00:34:00   even though I probably should have known that going in,

00:34:02   but I didn't, oh well, sometimes that happens.

00:34:04   But it made me think for a second,

00:34:07   I'm actually gonna be really sad

00:34:10   if this ecosystem goes south in a way

00:34:13   that ruins the cylinder for us.

00:34:17   Because I really like the cylinder the way it has been,

00:34:20   And if that goes away, like, I mean,

00:34:24   I guess we could try the Google air freshener,

00:34:26   but I'm not a big fan of that.

00:34:28   The HomePod might be great, but we don't really know yet,

00:34:32   and honestly, the more, I keep trying Siri,

00:34:35   I keep giving it the benefit of the doubt,

00:34:37   and it keeps making me not wanna try it anymore.

00:34:40   I don't have good luck with Siri,

00:34:42   so I'm not incredibly optimistic about that.

00:34:47   And the HomePod is also larger and much more expensive,

00:34:50   and so it would be hard to justify buying

00:34:52   more than one of them, or I don't know.

00:34:55   HomePod is a big question mark.

00:34:57   I hope Amazon does not screw up what they have

00:35:00   that's really great with the Echo cylinders,

00:35:02   with the new weird creepy stuff they're trying to do now.

00:35:05   - So what did you think you were going to get

00:35:06   from the Echo Show when you bought it?

00:35:09   Like, and I don't mean that in a nasty way,

00:35:13   I'm genuinely asking, like did you think,

00:35:15   oh, it'll be really nice to have, I don't know,

00:35:17   a visible view of your grocery list,

00:35:20   or you made mention of your calendar.

00:35:22   Like, what sorts of things did you think

00:35:24   this was going to help out with

00:35:27   that it seems to either not or do a crummy job of it?

00:35:31   - The only reasons I really wanted the screen

00:35:33   were to show me timers and weather.

00:35:35   That's about it.

00:35:36   And we don't, I didn't need the screen.

00:35:41   Like, we get along just fine with the cylinder,

00:35:43   But it would just be nicer to be able to like,

00:35:45   just glance at timer statuses and just, you know,

00:35:48   see the weather presented without having to listen

00:35:49   to the full, you know, three sentence description

00:35:51   with all the words in it.

00:35:52   Like, that would be nice.

00:35:54   And this is again, like everyone out there is yelling at me

00:35:57   to just, you know, wear an Apple watch.

00:35:58   Because that really does solve many of these problems.

00:36:01   And Siri even occasionally works on that.

00:36:04   So that could be nice, but it's just not the way

00:36:07   I wanna do things.

00:36:08   So, you know, this is all really nitpicky stuff.

00:36:11   And this technology is all really amazing.

00:36:13   So it feels weird to complain about any of it really

00:36:15   because in like absolute terms, this is all amazing

00:36:19   and we should be thankful we have any of it.

00:36:21   But in relative terms, I never wanna use an Amazon GUI

00:36:25   if I can help it.

00:36:26   (laughs)

00:36:27   And I think what I was hoping for is

00:36:30   more like what we thought the HomePod might be

00:36:35   before we read Apple's site, which was (laughs)

00:36:39   Like, just a very small, discrete screen output

00:36:43   for small amounts of information to be presented subtly.

00:36:47   That I think would be nice.

00:36:50   It could even still be an echo cylinder,

00:36:52   just with like a little, like an OLED strip around the top

00:36:57   to do like a Times Square kind of like, you know,

00:36:59   scrolling marquee kind of, something like,

00:37:01   it's something small and discrete

00:37:04   that does not draw your eye, that,

00:37:06   Like if there's no timers and if there's nothing

00:37:09   that you've asked for recently, it would just be blank.

00:37:12   That would be nice.

00:37:13   But that isn't what this is. - That's terrible,

00:37:15   by the way, nobody knew that place.

00:37:16   - I know, that actually is bad.

00:37:18   But like, okay, a small screen, like a watch-size screen.

00:37:21   You could have two timers stacked there counting down

00:37:23   and it would be fine.

00:37:24   Something small on the screen is what I wanted.

00:37:29   And this is not that.

00:37:30   This is like, this becomes the center of attention

00:37:33   in your kitchen or wherever you put it.

00:37:35   It's like having a TV on.

00:37:37   And I'm the kind of person that,

00:37:39   if I'm in a restaurant that has TVs,

00:37:42   and there's one in my field of view,

00:37:43   I'm constantly distracted by it.

00:37:45   And I don't want to be, but my eyes just drawn to it.

00:37:48   That's how this is.

00:37:50   Even though it's not always moving and stuff,

00:37:52   although it sometimes is,

00:37:53   but it just constantly drew my eye to it,

00:37:56   and I couldn't ignore it.

00:37:58   And it really deserves to be ignored most of the time.

00:38:01   So if what you want is more TV-like screens that are always on in your life, this might

00:38:07   be for you.

00:38:08   But that's not what I want.

00:38:09   >> It feels like you could have gotten this thing quieted down, so to speak.

00:38:14   Get it to the point where, I mean, I don't even know if it displays the timer and the

00:38:17   weather stuff, but in theory, one of the things that Amazon might have a leg up over Apple

00:38:23   on is just saying, "Oh, we'll just make everything configurable."

00:38:26   Like you'll just be, you know, turn things on, turn things off, whatever, and then you

00:38:29   You can get it to the point where all it ever displays is your three timers and the weather.

00:38:34   And you start looking at it more like an old-style clock radio where, yeah, it's a light that's

00:38:38   constantly on, but it doesn't change much, it just shows the time all the time, you know

00:38:42   what I mean?

00:38:43   >> Yeah.

00:38:44   >> It's probably wise to wait for a second-generation device instead of this hideous thing, but

00:38:49   on the other hand, look at your cylinder.

00:38:52   They haven't made great strides with that cylinder.

00:38:54   They did -- I wouldn't worry too much about the ecosystem going all screen because they've

00:38:58   They've still got the dot, and then they've got the cylinder, and then they've got this,

00:39:01   and now they've got like a three-part family, not even counting all the weird buttons that

00:39:05   you press to get paper towels and stuff.

00:39:08   So I think Amazon will keep making one of everything, but I also think if they actually

00:39:13   iterate on this, which remains to be seen if they will, but if they do iterate on it,

00:39:19   I think this approach is better than the "hey, just give me a cylinder with a tiny screen,"

00:39:23   because a cylinder with a tiny screen has more limited use cases.

00:39:27   What you really want is instead of this thing looks like a speaker grill housing apparently

00:39:31   some crappy speakers and then a screen on top of it.

00:39:34   What you really want is for it to be, and what people are going to suggest is oh why

00:39:37   don't you just have an iPad in your kitchen.

00:39:39   Because then you can run whatever app you want, configure whatever you want, use Hey

00:39:42   Siri to do everything you want and won't that solve all your problems and you already discussed

00:39:46   no it won't because Siri doesn't listen to me and does dumb things.

00:39:51   But having a big giant screen that can do anything is much more flexible than having

00:39:57   a small screen that can do the three things that you want to do with it.

00:40:01   Provided you can make the big screen quiet down, not show you special offers.

00:40:06   By the way, if people don't know what that's a reference to, the Kindles, for many years

00:40:10   perhaps they still do this, you can get a Kindle cheaper if you're willing to have ads

00:40:15   displayed on it when you're not using it.

00:40:16   Amazon had a euphemism for this they called it Kindle with special offers a way of saying buy this Kindle for less money and

00:40:24   We'll constantly show you ads and if you want the ads to go away

00:40:27   Give us a little bit of more money and let me tell you that's the best money you'll ever spend in your life

00:40:31   Their book to show them special offers. Yeah, it was only it was only 25 bucks. It wasn't a massive amount of money

00:40:38   Yeah, like get the one by all means get the one with special offers and then just say every quarter that you're fine like in

00:40:43   the laundry, just keep saving that until you get $25 and then spend it. It's a great use

00:40:47   of your money. But anyway, I'm still a believer in a big screen thing that is stationary and

00:40:55   plugged in and has cameras and microphones and good speakers in it, but apparently this

00:40:59   is not yet it. But I also think that Marco didn't quite give us a long enough chance

00:41:03   to know exactly how much he would hate or like it. Because I feel like if you had kept

00:41:07   it for a couple weeks, you could probably come to some uneasy truce with this super

00:41:13   bright screen and get it settled down and then then you really know whether

00:41:17   like it's untenable and this needs to go or whatever but it's probably easier for

00:41:22   all involved if you don't add more of these devices to your house so maybe

00:41:26   just start buying cylinders and stockpiling them now yeah it'll be

00:41:30   Marco with the cylinders Gruber with his keyboards John and Stephen Hackett with

00:41:36   everything well see the thing with the keyboards is you can probably keep

00:41:41   getting those to work but the cylinders like if Amazon gives up on the cylinders

00:41:47   the cylinder is useless without the backend services that feed it so you

00:41:51   just have a bunch of useless and Marco you would know have they ever revised

00:41:55   the cylinder no that's that's not a good sign they've already they revised the

00:41:59   dot already that there's been two dots and there's been the other ones that no

00:42:02   one buys that the the tap and oh god what's the other one called there's two

00:42:07   other ones that nobody buys but the tap and the spud and the dot yeah but but

00:42:11   - Yeah, there's been two dots,

00:42:13   but there's only ever been one full-size cylinder.

00:42:16   - All right, anything else on the Echo Show?

00:42:19   - Hopefully not.

00:42:20   We are sponsored this week by Harry,

00:42:23   is giving you a great shave at a fair price.

00:42:25   Go to harrys.com/atp for more info

00:42:28   and to get a free trial set.

00:42:30   Harry's is all about giving you a high-quality, great shave.

00:42:35   And they do this with these wonderful

00:42:37   five-blade razor cartridges.

00:42:39   And if you've ever seen a five-blade razor cartridge

00:42:41   in a store before, you know roughly what they cost.

00:42:43   Harry's blades are half the cost

00:42:45   of the leading other razor out there

00:42:47   that you probably know of and have probably bought

00:42:49   if you ever need to shave and have probably regretted

00:42:51   how much you paid for it.

00:42:52   Harry's blades are an incredible value

00:42:54   because they bought their own factory.

00:42:56   It's a wonderful German factory

00:42:57   with over 100 years of blade making experience.

00:43:00   They give you high quality blades

00:43:02   backed by 100% quality guarantee.

00:43:05   They are so confident that you're gonna love their blades.

00:43:07   They wanna give you a trial set for free.

00:43:10   Here's what you do.

00:43:10   at harrys.com/atp.

00:43:13   You just pay three bucks for shipping

00:43:15   and they will give you the trial set,

00:43:17   which is a $13 value just for free.

00:43:19   All you gotta do is cover the shipping.

00:43:20   Three bucks for the shipping and you get the trial set.

00:43:22   That includes a razor handle,

00:43:24   it includes five blades in the cartridge

00:43:26   with the lubricating strip and a trimmer blade,

00:43:28   rich lathering shave gel, a travel blade cover,

00:43:31   which is awesome when you travel.

00:43:33   All that, just $3 for shipping at harrys.com/atp.

00:43:38   It's all about a great shave at a fair price,

00:43:41   and they know you're gonna love it.

00:43:42   So try out the trial set today, Harrys.com/ATP.

00:43:47   Thank you very much to Harrys

00:43:48   for sponsoring our show once again.

00:43:50   - Okay, moving on.

00:43:55   We wanted to talk a little bit about iOS drag and drop,

00:43:58   and I have not really experienced this yet.

00:44:01   I don't have a new iPad.

00:44:03   I haven't put the beta on my iPad mini,

00:44:05   But there was a little bit of a discussion that I think all of us had overheard when

00:44:12   we were in San Jose for WWDC.

00:44:16   And it was a really fascinating conversation that I'm going to try my best to summarize.

00:44:21   So Dr. Wave, Michael Johnson of Pixar, had an interesting use case that he didn't feel

00:44:29   like the existing drag and drop API would work with.

00:44:34   His specific example is slightly different than this

00:44:36   But I heard him talk about this a couple of times with a couple of people and I'm gonna use his

00:44:43   Example that is not really for Pixar, but just a general example

00:44:46   So let's say you had a photograph that you were dragging from say photos into pages

00:44:53   You know the Apple word processor app

00:44:55   What what dr. Wave was saying was?

00:44:58   in general like say on a Mac

00:45:02   You would expect that as you're dragging this photo over the text that's in pages,

00:45:08   say you're dragging it into the middle of like an essay or something, you would expect that the text would flow around

00:45:14   the image such that it's hugging the borders of this image.

00:45:20   Presumably this image is some sort of rectangle and you know, it's trying to hug the four edges of that image as best as possible.

00:45:27   So as you drag it up all the text moves down, as you drag it down all the text moves up, etc.

00:45:31   I'm trying my best to paint a word picture here.

00:45:34   So what he was saying was, that's not really allowed the way things work today.

00:45:42   And now I'm talking a little outside my comfort zone, so feel free to interrupt me.

00:45:46   But basically, you're given a bare minimum of, I guess, metadata about what's getting

00:45:53   dragged, if any.

00:45:55   And it's not until the user releases the drag and thus commits, "Yes, this is the app I

00:46:02   would like to receive this thing I'm holding onto."

00:46:06   That's the moment at which the destination app gets all kinds of information, including

00:46:11   the actual object that's being dragged.

00:46:13   But the theory from Apple was, until you have released your finger and taken it off the

00:46:20   screen and thus dropped what you have quote-unquote in your hand, what if you drag across some other

00:46:26   app that you don't want to see anything about that information? So let's say you have, you know,

00:46:31   one of those situations where you have three apps open, you're going from photos, and you're going

00:46:35   across Twitter, and because you're a maniac you don't use Tweetbot, you use the official Twitter

00:46:41   app. Don't @ me. So you drag across twitter.app, but you don't want Twitter to see that photograph,

00:46:47   and then you go into pages and that's when you release.

00:46:51   So that's why they don't want to give a not final destination,

00:46:56   any sort of real information about what's being dragged.

00:46:59   But that's a real bummer for cases where you want to do things like

00:47:02   reflow text around an image.

00:47:05   So it was a very, very interesting use case,

00:47:07   and I actually witnessed a couple of conversations between Dr. Wave

00:47:10   and a couple of people, including some Apple employees,

00:47:13   one of which was extremely fascinating,

00:47:15   about what are the pros and cons of Apple's approach,

00:47:18   and what could or should they do about it.

00:47:22   And there's a lot of gray area here

00:47:25   that I'm kind of fluffing over.

00:47:26   As an example, if the source and destination apps

00:47:30   are from the same developer, say com.pixar.whatever,

00:47:34   then there's, I believe, more information available to you

00:47:38   than there would be otherwise,

00:47:40   but I don't recall if that's enough

00:47:42   to get through this particular problem or not,

00:47:44   but it was just a really, really fascinating use case.

00:47:47   And I don't know if I should go so far as to say edge case,

00:47:51   but it's certainly, it's not one of those things

00:47:53   where I heard this and was like, wow, this API sucks.

00:47:57   It's actually, wow, they really, really thought

00:47:59   about this API.

00:48:01   They made a decision that may or may not have been the best,

00:48:04   but I think that makes sense,

00:48:06   and I understand why they did it.

00:48:08   So I have not experienced this myself.

00:48:12   I've kind of summarized as best I can.

00:48:15   Marco, you have a new iPad,

00:48:17   and you do have the beta on it, right?

00:48:18   So anything to add on this?

00:48:20   - I thought you're wrong, but now I'm questioning it.

00:48:23   I thought that there was a whole thing in the WDC sessions,

00:48:26   which I haven't finished watching

00:48:28   the drag and drop ones yet.

00:48:29   - Yeah, see, I haven't seen them either.

00:48:31   - But I thought that they actually did provide,

00:48:34   for photos, they provided dimensions.

00:48:36   And there was even some way to tell the drag

00:48:41   drag agent how to render a preview to say like,

00:48:44   show a thumbnail of the image here.

00:48:46   And didn't Federighi talk about that on the talk show?

00:48:49   For some reason I think you might be wrong

00:48:52   about this entire concept.

00:48:54   Like I think they're, you are right that the apps

00:48:58   don't receive information, don't receive the data

00:49:01   that's being dragged unless it's dropped

00:49:03   for security concern reasons, but I think there's

00:49:06   this whole API in place for like previewing

00:49:09   that allows the Windows Server to,

00:49:12   basically the app can tell the Windows Server,

00:49:14   like, well, if you happen to have an image,

00:49:16   let me know its dimensions and render it

00:49:19   at this kind of alpha level at this scale here.

00:49:23   Like, I think there actually is a way to do that.

00:49:25   So we'll have to follow up on this.

00:49:27   - No, no, let me clear this up for you guys.

00:49:29   You're both right.

00:49:30   Marco, you were recalling this,

00:49:31   and actually there's even more than that.

00:49:33   There's other places where you can stash

00:49:34   a limited amount of actual data,

00:49:36   like an 8K buffer or something,

00:49:37   and Casey's right about the, not friend apps,

00:49:40   but like app groups and stuff.

00:49:42   All those things are true, but the specific use case

00:49:45   and the case that Apple has specifically protected against

00:49:49   is getting at the actual data that is behind that drag data.

00:49:53   They have all these things surrounding it

00:49:55   to give you some way to let the destination

00:49:59   know stuff about your thing

00:50:01   without getting at the actual data.

00:50:03   And there's a couple reasons that.

00:50:04   One is the thing that Casey talked about, which is privacy.

00:50:07   it kind of makes sense. In the iOS ecosystem, in the modern computing ecosystem, the idea of

00:50:13   dragging an image across the Facebook app and the Facebook app extracting all the image data and

00:50:20   like analyzing and uploading or whatever, like that sounds crazy, you're just paranoid. No,

00:50:24   we've seen not crazy at all. We've seen worse from other applications on iOS. This is why Apple

00:50:31   did this. They can't give you the data. And so if they're not going to give you the data,

00:50:36   then all these problems you're talking about, well, what do I do for a preview? What should

00:50:41   it look like when I'm dragging it? Can I give some metadata? Can I give some limited amount

00:50:45   of other data of my choosing, a couple of kilobytes of information? And a lot of times that can be

00:50:51   enough. For example, if the thing that you're dragging is representable by URL, for example,

00:50:56   and you can jam that URL into that, you know, eight kilobyte field, then your destination

00:51:01   application is like, oh, ha, you're dragging this thing, but I can't get it the real data. It's like,

00:51:06   yeah, but my data is just a URL, and I'll put it in a little area, and then you can read the URL,

00:51:10   and then you can hit the URL and pull down the data and get it. But in other cases,

00:51:14   when you're dragging something very large, like a large data file or something like that,

00:51:18   they don't want the application to get at that actual data. And all the preview stuff you can

00:51:22   do is never going to represent the thing. I don't want to get into, I know some more specific

00:51:26   details about the use cases of the Pixar thing, but I don't want to talk about them, but

00:51:28   there are situations where a preview is not sufficient. A thumbnail, a preview, dimensions,

00:51:35   all of which are not sufficient. You can imagine things that Pixar does that may not be adequately

00:51:40   representable or nicely representable as merely some dimensions in a thumbnail, right? Because

00:51:46   because Pixar does stuff in 3D.

00:51:48   So just feel free to extrapolate from there.

00:51:50   And that's a user experience thing

00:51:53   where you would just expect on the Mac

00:51:57   or on a PC type operating system

00:51:58   that the destination has access to the full set of data

00:52:02   and can do whatever it wants with it

00:52:04   and not just say, give me a little placeholder

00:52:07   because sometimes a placeholder,

00:52:09   especially if the placeholder is just a thumbnail

00:52:11   or something array of kilobits is not adequate.

00:52:13   And so I think Apple made the right decision

00:52:16   for the environment, because, and especially since it's so hard to ensure that you don't

00:52:21   drag across something, you know, that you like, because everything is, you know, it's

00:52:27   a tiling window manager, essentially, there is no dead zone, there's no demilitarized

00:52:32   zone between the quote unquote, windows. Right. So I guess if you invoke the multitasking

00:52:38   switcher, you've got your you're sort of out of dragging across things until you pull it

00:52:41   back from maybe when you pull it to the front, maybe you don't, you're not hovering over

00:52:44   the right side of the pane as it zooms in. It's difficult not to accidentally hover over

00:52:49   something. And I don't know if it's just iOS or just modern computing in general, but iOS

00:52:53   grew up in an environment where it is not overly paranoid to think that applications

00:53:01   will try to extract any piece of information they can because they can do stuff with it.

00:53:05   They can upload to a server, they can analyze it, they can figure out how to sell ads against

00:53:09   your thing. That is real stuff that happens, so they have to protect against it.

00:53:14   it. But after hearing these specific use cases, I think there is a situation that Apple needs

00:53:21   to address, and I think the best way to address it is probably by, you know, that same thing

00:53:25   with the App Group stuff of like opening the floodgates between applications that know

00:53:30   each other, right? And I'm sure there's a use case beyond that, where it's like, "Right,

00:53:34   what about, you know, a third-party company that wants to sell an application into a professional

00:53:39   environment and they're not the same company and they want to share things?" So there needs

00:53:42   to be some sort of secure way for applications, even across companies, to agree that it's

00:53:49   okay that we share each other's full data instead of doing a lot of this stuff. But

00:53:54   I mean, this is what software design is about. You make the best decision for everybody,

00:54:00   and then everybody who doesn't fall into that 80%, the fat part of the bell curve, sends

00:54:06   you bug reports and you try to find some way to accommodate them. So I don't know what

00:54:09   outcome of this conversation is other than I was fairly convinced that this is a legit

00:54:13   use case and I think Apple was as well and hopefully they'll do stuff to address it.

00:54:17   But I still think they made the right decision for the majority of users, you know, that's

00:54:23   sort of safety first, security first, privacy first approach with many allowances to let,

00:54:30   you know, your average application do something reasonable and then the more demanding applications

00:54:35   have to find another solution.

00:54:37   Anything else on drag and drop?

00:54:38   So there's a subsection here about dragging,

00:54:42   drag and drop on the phone.

00:54:43   This was all, this is all older notes,

00:54:45   but it was like right after the keynote,

00:54:47   it was like, wait, does drag and drop work on the phone?

00:54:48   Or does it work in the beta?

00:54:49   Is it supposed to work?

00:54:50   Or no, they're gonna intentionally make it not work

00:54:53   because they don't want drag and drop to be on the phone.

00:54:55   I don't have iOS 11 on a phone,

00:54:57   so I don't know the current status of this.

00:54:59   Marco, do you have it?

00:55:00   - Yeah.

00:55:01   - Can you drag between anything on the phone?

00:55:02   Can you drag between apps?

00:55:04   - No, you can drag within your own app though.

00:55:07   I'm not entirely sure why they impose this limitation.

00:55:11   Like I can see why somebody might have argued for this.

00:55:14   But you know, on the iPad you can drag and drop

00:55:16   within an app and also between apps.

00:55:19   On the iPhone you can only drag and drop within an app.

00:55:22   However, if the argument is the screen is too small

00:55:26   and so you can't expect people to like, you know,

00:55:28   cram their fingers on it or whatever,

00:55:30   that doesn't work because there's this awesome system

00:55:34   that they built where you can pick up some items in a drag

00:55:38   and then with another finger, maybe from your other hand,

00:55:42   with another finger, you can navigate the interface

00:55:45   to a different screen and then drop the dragged items

00:55:49   somewhere else, like not just within the same list

00:55:51   or within the same screen, but you can actually go

00:55:53   to a different level in the navigation hierarchy

00:55:55   and drop them there, or you can drive them

00:55:57   to a whole different app entirely.

00:55:59   And that's great, that's an incredibly powerful system.

00:56:02   But if you're gonna allow navigation within an app

00:56:06   to happen while you're in mid-drag on the phone,

00:56:09   why not also allow you to kick out to a different app

00:56:12   and launch something else?

00:56:14   So the only thing I can think of is,

00:56:16   on the iPad you have the screen space

00:56:17   to have two apps side by side,

00:56:19   or more than one app side by side.

00:56:22   So you have that ability on the iPad

00:56:24   and you don't have that on the iPhone.

00:56:25   And that's fine, I think that makes sense

00:56:27   given the screen sizes and the app environment.

00:56:30   but I don't see why there's a limitation

00:56:33   that you can't do it between apps

00:56:36   by holding down your dragged items on the phone

00:56:39   and then hitting the home button and going to a different app

00:56:41   and opening up a different app.

00:56:41   It's like you already enabled it within the app.

00:56:44   So why not that?

00:56:45   - Yeah, Steve Drouton Smith responding

00:56:48   to some people offering that maybe it's because

00:56:51   the phone's not powerful enough

00:56:54   or they wanna save it as an upsell feature

00:56:56   for the next iPhone or whatever.

00:56:58   And from what he heard at WWDC is that they just wanted this to be an iPad only feature

00:57:04   for now.

00:57:05   Maybe it will come to the phone eventually.

00:57:06   By the way, related to this, both on the phone and on the iPad, one of the things that kept

00:57:11   coming up during the keynote and afterwards is the idea of a shelf, which is a concept

00:57:16   that I'm pretty sure existed in Next Step, but certainly there were like copycat products

00:57:22   on the Mac, there probably still are on the Mac these days.

00:57:25   It's just, I think even Quicksilver has something like that.

00:57:29   It's a region of the screen, like a shelf, like a little rectangular area that comes

00:57:33   out and it's like, "Hey, put stuff here."

00:57:35   And when you put things there, it doesn't actually move them to there, they're just

00:57:38   proxies, like, "Oh."

00:57:39   It's like if you start dragging something, just put it on the shelf here.

00:57:43   It's as if you continued the drag, but you don't have to, you just drop it on the shelf.

00:57:46   Then you can go do whatever it is you want to do, go find where you were going to drop

00:57:50   that drag thing, then you open up the shelf again and you're like, "All right, take the

00:57:53   thing back off the shelf and put it in."

00:57:55   So it's a multi-part drag operation with a rest stop in between.

00:58:00   You can have multiple things on the shelf.

00:58:01   You can imagine it's multiple clipboards.

00:58:03   It's lots of things in the current interface that are equivalent to that.

00:58:07   The tricky bit in iOS, and maybe the reason Apple hasn't committed to anything like a

00:58:11   shelf yet, is where do you put the shelf?

00:58:13   How do you activate it?

00:58:14   Do you want to hog a whole screen edge with it?

00:58:17   How do you get it to appear and disappear?

00:58:19   Do you feel like you're burning...

00:58:22   Are you burning parts of the interface for this?

00:58:23   Now you can use entire applications as a shelf.

00:58:26   You can make a shelf application

00:58:27   and dock it on the right side of your thing.

00:58:29   And like there's lots of ways you can work around this,

00:58:31   but all the demos and the keynotes

00:58:33   and a lot of the stuff that I've seen online

00:58:35   is people showing multi-finger drags

00:58:38   with the thing I think I referred to on the live show

00:58:41   is the holding your breath operation,

00:58:43   where you begin doing a bunch of stuff

00:58:45   and now you've got stuff in flight,

00:58:47   like fingers are on the screen

00:58:48   and basically you can't let go.

00:58:51   Like you're dragging stuff and you can't let go.

00:58:52   You haven't gotten to your destination yet,

00:58:54   you're getting there.

00:58:55   Your other hand is navigating somehow,

00:58:56   you're doing this with one hand

00:58:58   wrapped around your little phone,

00:58:59   or you have two hands on the phone

00:59:01   and it's resting at whatever.

00:59:02   Those type of operations,

00:59:05   that's kind of the same reason that,

00:59:07   you guys don't remember this, but on the Mac originally,

00:59:11   the menu bar worked like the thing at the top of the screen.

00:59:14   You'd have to hold down the mouse button.

00:59:17   So you'd go up to the file menu,

00:59:18   you'd click and hold down the mouse button,

00:59:21   and you'd have to keep holding down the mouse button

00:59:23   until you moused over the menu item you wanted

00:59:25   and then you would release.

00:59:26   And that is like the smallest version

00:59:28   of a breath-holding maneuver,

00:59:30   because you did mouse down

00:59:33   and you had to keep holding it down

00:59:34   while you looked around the menus.

00:59:36   You can go to the next menu, go down, go into a sub-menu,

00:59:38   try to find the thing you want,

00:59:39   but you're holding the mouse button down this entire time,

00:59:42   which is a more difficult operation,

00:59:43   especially back when the Mac was new

00:59:45   and no one knew how to use a mouse.

00:59:47   It's a more difficult operation than you might think.

00:59:49   like okay, hold down the mouse button,

00:59:51   but keep moving the mouse, you know,

00:59:53   but I have to keep pressing the button,

00:59:56   so do I just rest my finger on it

00:59:58   and press it into the table,

00:59:58   or do I push upward on the mouse?

01:00:00   And these things we take for granted now

01:00:01   that it sounds crazy that I'm even suggesting this,

01:00:03   but believe me, this was a maneuver

01:00:05   that was difficult for people to do,

01:00:07   much more difficult for people to do than the equivalent,

01:00:09   which is what Windows did,

01:00:10   which is go to the file menu and click mouse down, mouse up.

01:00:14   No, you don't have to hold anything down anymore.

01:00:16   The file menu will fall down,

01:00:18   And now you're free to navigate.

01:00:20   And the flip side of that in the Windows world is, OK, well,

01:00:23   I did this click on the File menu.

01:00:25   And I decided I don't want anything in the File menu.

01:00:27   But now the File menu is stuck down.

01:00:29   Like, how do I get rid of it?

01:00:30   And you move your cursor around.

01:00:32   The other menus come down.

01:00:33   And you try to move your cursor off the end.

01:00:35   And it's like, I just want to get rid of these menus.

01:00:37   How do I make them go away?

01:00:38   You can do it on your Mac now.

01:00:39   Click the File menu.

01:00:40   And then just move your mouse around it.

01:00:41   And pretend you're a novice user.

01:00:43   It's like, the File menu is down.

01:00:45   I don't want it to go.

01:00:46   and then you hit the edit menu,

01:00:47   now the edit menu is down,

01:00:49   you have to find a safe place to click to deactivate it.

01:00:52   Whereas if with the old Mac style one,

01:00:54   when you hold down,

01:00:56   you just release the mouse button

01:00:57   anywhere that's not on a menu item,

01:00:59   and you have canceled the operation.

01:01:01   Eventually, Apple came around to the Windows way

01:01:04   of doing things because it's less

01:01:05   of a breath-holding maneuver.

01:01:06   You get to click and now you get to think,

01:01:08   find the menu item, scroll around or whatever,

01:01:11   and eventually people learn the safe areas

01:01:12   to click to deactivate thing or whatever.

01:01:14   So on iOS, all these drag operations,

01:01:18   you're just holding your breath that whole time

01:01:19   until you can find a place to put these.

01:01:21   And worse, this is my question after the keynote,

01:01:24   and I still kind of have this question,

01:01:25   even though I do have iOS 11 on my iPad now,

01:01:27   is how do you safely cancel a complex drag operation?

01:01:32   You've got seven things in flight,

01:01:33   you're swiping around and you're like,

01:01:34   you changed your mind.

01:01:35   You're like, no, nevermind.

01:01:37   If I was in the Mac, I would hit the escape key,

01:01:38   which nobody knows because people

01:01:40   aren't old school Mac users,

01:01:41   and it would cancel the drag operation, right?

01:01:42   - I didn't know that.

01:01:44   Yeah.

01:01:45   But on, in iOS, I'm like, well, what do I do

01:01:50   with all this crap that I've got in my hand?

01:01:51   I'm holding my breath.

01:01:52   I gotta get rid of this, it's like a hanger in it.

01:01:54   I gotta get rid of this stuff safely.

01:01:55   I don't wanna accidentally drag all this stuff into it.

01:01:58   So like--

01:01:59   - You go off the screen edge maybe?

01:02:00   - I mean, there's a million places we know

01:02:02   is you probably go to Springboard and it's probably safe,

01:02:04   unless you're dragging applications,

01:02:06   in which case maybe you'll move them to there.

01:02:07   You can go to a thing, they have different cursors of like,

01:02:12   Can this drag potentially happen in this location at all?

01:02:14   One of them is like the forbidden cursor,

01:02:16   which they tell you you're not supposed to use,

01:02:17   but at least tells you like,

01:02:18   look, you can't drag this here ever.

01:02:20   It's never gonna work, don't bother.

01:02:21   Like, oh, now it's safe to drop.

01:02:23   I can drop it there.

01:02:24   Like, they don't show demos like that,

01:02:26   but having a safe way to change your mind mid-flight

01:02:31   and also having a way to think about what you're doing

01:02:38   mid-flight without the pressure,

01:02:39   without the literal pressure of having to hold your fingers

01:02:42   down on the screen or the mental pressure of knowing that you have this thing in flight,

01:02:46   those are problems that could potentially be solved by a shelf because then you have

01:02:50   a two-part maneuver. I'm going to do something with this thing and this other thing, chuck

01:02:54   them on the shelf. And now I'm free, I'm not holding my breath anymore, I'm not holding

01:02:58   my fingers on the screen, I'm free to figure out what I'm going to do with that stuff.

01:03:01   If I decide I'm not going to do anything with it, it's over. Like I can just leave it on

01:03:05   the shelf or I can delete it from the shelf or just let it age out of the shelf or whatever.

01:03:09   But eventually I do find the thing I want to do, I can bring the shelf back onto the

01:03:11   screen, take the thing off the shelf, put it where I was going to put it. So I think

01:03:16   there's room for that type of interface element in iOS and I think a lot of

01:03:20   these multi-finger drag things are cool to look at and impressive but are way

01:03:27   above the physical mental dexterity of most people most of the time and even

01:03:35   for people who can pull them off I think they are they're less comfortable than a

01:03:40   a more relaxed multi-part operation,

01:03:43   the same way that holding down the mouse cursor on a menu

01:03:46   was less comfortable for people on the original Mac

01:03:49   and why we're all used to just single clicking.

01:03:51   If you wanna get a feeling for this, by the way,

01:03:52   just fire up an old Mac emulator.

01:03:54   Everybody, even old school Mac users like me,

01:03:57   you fire up one of those old Mac emulators

01:03:58   and you go to a menu and you click on it,

01:04:00   and the menu briefly flickers on the screen,

01:04:02   and you go, "Oh yeah, yeah, I remember this."

01:04:05   Or if you're not an old school Mac user,

01:04:06   you're like, "This thing is broken," and you just quit.

01:04:09   So there was an app that I loved that is not being made anymore, and I think there was

01:04:15   like an API change, and they got booted from the Mac App Store.

01:04:18   I don't remember what it was.

01:04:19   But it was called Dragon Drop.

01:04:21   That's "dragon" as in the animal drop, and it was a play, obviously, on the phrase "drag

01:04:26   and drop."

01:04:27   Oh!

01:04:28   Yeah, funny, huh?

01:04:30   Anyway, what it did was, on the Mac, if you start a drag and then wiggle your mouse the

01:04:37   the same way you wiggle your mouse to get the huge cursor in Sierra.

01:04:42   What it would do is it would pop up—I'm sure there's a term for this kind of pain,

01:04:46   but whatever the term is, it would bring up one of those, like—I don't know how to describe

01:04:52   it, but it's like a little temporary window, basically.

01:04:55   And you could drag—or you could drop, I should say, whatever you have in your drag

01:05:01   onto this drag-and-drop pane, and it would stay there.

01:05:06   Then you could mouse around and do whatever you needed, maybe get to a different path

01:05:10   on your desktop or on your hard drive, whatever.

01:05:14   And then you could go back to drag and drop and drag out of that.

01:05:17   So it was basically a shelf, like you were saying, and drag out of that and onto finder

01:05:20   or what have you.

01:05:21   And it was amazing and it made the computer so much better and easier to use.

01:05:25   And maybe there's another equivalent of that, and if there is, I'd actually kind of like

01:05:29   to know it.

01:05:30   But there's like 20 of those apps for the Mac.

01:05:32   The drag and drop innovation was the Wiggly cursor.

01:05:34   I think that was the first app that did that one.

01:05:36   Most of them use screen edges.

01:05:37   Like I said, Quicksilver has one.

01:05:39   I'm sure LaunchBar has one.

01:05:40   Yes, I want the Wiggly cursor.

01:05:41   Yeah.

01:05:42   Oh, you want the Wiggly cursor?

01:05:43   I don't know.

01:05:44   Maybe someone copied drag and drop.

01:05:45   But yeah, I'm trying to think if the next shelf was the original one of these.

01:05:49   I'm mostly coming from Mac world.

01:05:51   Even in classic Mac OS, there was a ton of these things.

01:05:53   Some of them are really good.

01:05:55   Yeah, I love this thing.

01:05:57   And I also did know you could hit escape to cancel drag, by the way.

01:06:01   And I live this long not knowing this, Mark.

01:06:03   What are you doing you have to cancel a drag? I never cancel a drag. You never cancel. I've committed to this drag

01:06:08   I'm seeing it through to the end. I gotta find some place to drop this thing damn it. I know what I'm doing oh

01:06:13   sick burn yeah

01:06:16   Let's go to the Mac. You can only grab well

01:06:18   You can only grab either one thing at once or multiple things all at once

01:06:23   It is more difficult than most Mac programs do not allow you to do this to add to your drag

01:06:28   Well as an iOS that's all the demos like like I've gone into another app

01:06:31   You know what? I'm gonna add more crap to this drag. Add, add, add. I'm running out of fingers, but it's okay."

01:06:35   And you know, you keep going.

01:06:37   Oh, one more thing on this, since we got to have an APFS section in every show now, as part of my legal agreement with Apple.

01:06:45   Another one of the things, you know, I keep bringing up like, "Why do I care about APFS?"

01:06:52   And, you know, I brought up snapshots and everything last time.

01:06:56   dragging a large thing whether it be a photo or a giant audio file or a video file or you know a 3d model or

01:07:02   Whatever from some iOS application

01:07:04   to another one

01:07:07   When you drop it and you've committed to have all the data appear over there

01:07:11   Sandboxing is still a thing in iOS and despite app groups and all the things with the data sharing or whatever

01:07:17   Especially if it's across applications from different vendors

01:07:20   It has to get you all that data. This is a three gigabyte video file

01:07:25   it can't just say, oh, you can just read

01:07:28   that three gigabyte video file out of

01:07:29   that other application sandbox, because you can't.

01:07:31   That's the whole point of sandbox.

01:07:32   You can't get to that other application stuff.

01:07:34   But you also don't want to wait

01:07:35   and like throw up a progress bar of like,

01:07:37   now copying three gigabytes of data

01:07:39   from application A to application B,

01:07:41   which is what would happen on the Mac

01:07:43   if you drag this huge thing someplace,

01:07:45   you know, in the Mac progress bars are everywhere.

01:07:48   You know, everyone gets a progress bar.

01:07:49   That's part of the Mac experience.

01:07:51   Progress bars are less a part of the iOS experience,

01:07:54   massively less a part of the iOS experience the best we get our

01:07:56   Stupid little spinners in the app store app store that never actually terminated. But anyway, those are circular

01:08:01   Those aren't progress bars as their progress rings

01:08:04   So the solution to this good old APFS to the rescue

01:08:09   Because drag-and-drop is only available in iOS 11 in in the way that we're talking about and because iOS 11 comes with APFS for everybody

01:08:20   When you drag that three gigabyte video file from one application to another you get an instant clone of it in the other application

01:08:26   Sandbox, it doesn't actually actually copy any data doesn't matter how big it is

01:08:30   That's clone takes the exact same amount of time doesn't take up any more space on disk. It's copy on right

01:08:35   So if that application starts modifying it, it'll start to become unshared

01:08:39   I'm not gonna say that a BFS makes dragon route possible

01:08:42   But it almost makes drag because if you didn't think of what you would have to do like what where would the progress bar?

01:08:47   appear. Would it be at modal? Would it be like a progress bar just underneath the little thumbnail

01:08:52   icon of the thing as it slowly copies three gigabytes? It would be terrible. APFS is saving

01:08:57   the universe once again. Wow. Oh, Jon. Although I kind of think it's enabling like it's enabling

01:09:06   them not to think about sandboxing like, "Hey, sandboxing, but then how are we going to have

01:09:09   drag and drop between applications?" "Oh, don't worry. You don't have to rethink your sandboxing

01:09:13   model. It'll just be an instant clone." I kind of wish they had to rethink their sandboxing model

01:09:17   or have come up with some other sharing center

01:09:19   instead of saying, it's all right,

01:09:20   everyone will have their own copy of this data

01:09:22   in their own sandbox and we can make as many clones

01:09:25   as we want instantly, so it's no problem, right?

01:09:27   And I still think it actually is a problem.

01:09:29   - We are sponsored this week by Betterment,

01:09:32   investing made better.

01:09:34   Go to betterment.com/ATP to learn more.

01:09:38   Betterment is a smarter way to invest your money,

01:09:40   providing investing advice through smart technology,

01:09:43   automated investing, and human advisors.

01:09:45   They have changed the industry

01:09:47   but using the same strategies that financial advisors use

01:09:49   with clients who have millions of dollars,

01:09:51   but making that available to everyone.

01:09:53   This includes smart rebalancing, global diversification,

01:09:57   tax harvesting, and so much more.

01:09:59   Betterment's mission is to help you manage

01:10:01   and grow your investments to build your financial future,

01:10:04   all with low fees,

01:10:06   so you lose less of your money along the way.

01:10:08   'Cause if you do the math,

01:10:09   typical investment fees and costs really add up over time,

01:10:12   and Betterment's fees are a fraction of the cost

01:10:15   other financial services. And Betterment is so easy to use that they've won awards for

01:10:20   their customer experience. You can even see for yourself by logging into the demo account

01:10:24   they have right on their website if you're curious. ATP listeners can get up to six months

01:10:28   managed for free. For more information, visit betterment.com/ATP. Terms and conditions do

01:10:34   apply and investment involves risk. Once again, to learn more, visit betterment.com/ATP. That's

01:10:40   betterment.com/ATP. Betterment, investing made better.

01:10:44   [music]

01:10:48   John, tell me about Dold 3.

01:10:51   This is another one of those sneaky things that Apple does every once in a while.

01:10:56   Maybe it's not sneaky, maybe it's because people don't care about it.

01:10:59   I used to write about them in my OS X reviews.

01:11:02   The canonical example is Launch-D, where...

01:11:05   Or actually, more recently we've had Discovery-D.

01:11:08   Lots of things that didn't do D.

01:11:11   And so does DYLD.

01:11:13   Where they're core parts of the Mac operating system, sometimes core parts of the underlying

01:11:19   base operating system, Darwin's underneath iOS and Mac OS, you never hear that name anymore

01:11:25   these days.

01:11:27   And Apple decide they need to rewrite it.

01:11:31   And that can be exciting, but also scary.

01:11:35   Discovery D, last time that happened, was a little bit scary because they, what was

01:11:39   the thing that was replacing it?

01:11:40   I forget.

01:11:41   >> MDNS responders.

01:11:42   Yeah, and so that was a problem because like, mdns responder was a mess and had tons of

01:11:48   bugs, but the thing that replaced it had more bugs and was even a bigger mess, and so they

01:11:55   wrote back that change.

01:11:58   But things like launchd, where they replace the process that spawns off all the other

01:12:03   processes and does a million other things, rewrite that from scratch and replace the

01:12:08   old init process. That worked out pretty well.

01:12:12   Did we ever find out whether it was Bono that rescued us from Discovery-D? Remember when

01:12:20   that change happened there was some kind of rumor like some celebrity complained to Tim

01:12:24   Cook and I think it was Bono. Like, you know, of all the things...

01:12:27   I don't think it was Bono. Bono doesn't know how to use computers.

01:12:29   Remember, it was some big celebrity and like imagine like, you know, of all the like the

01:12:33   the world peace things that Bono has done,

01:12:35   but like also rescuing us from Discovery D.

01:12:38   That would rank pretty high up on that list.

01:12:40   - Was it John Mayer?

01:12:41   I'm trying to think of like a celebrity.

01:12:41   - Maybe, yeah.

01:12:42   It was some celebrity that allegedly complained

01:12:46   to Tim Cook about this thing

01:12:48   and got it fixed like the next week.

01:12:50   - Yeah.

01:12:51   Well, fixed as in rolling it back to MDNS Responder.

01:12:54   - Whatever it was, it was fixed.

01:12:56   - Yeah.

01:12:57   Oh, for some people.

01:12:59   So in the upcoming operating systems in High Sierra and iOS 11,

01:13:07   Apple's Core OS group, I'm assuming, or some other people who work down

01:13:11   in the guts of stuff, have decided there's another part that needs to be replaced.

01:13:16   And that's the dynamic linker, which is a thing you probably don't know about

01:13:19   if you're not a programmer.

01:13:21   But it's the thing that figures out where all the other code that you're

01:13:26   going to be calling into is, and so you can call it

01:13:29   from your application.

01:13:30   You compile your application, saying,

01:13:31   I'm going to call this method and this framework here

01:13:33   and this function and this library there.

01:13:36   And when you launch your application,

01:13:39   the operating system needs to connect all those dots,

01:13:42   because maybe that library has changed,

01:13:44   and these libraries aren't part of your application.

01:13:47   They're somewhere else in the system directory,

01:13:49   and the address of all the functions in them

01:13:51   might be different from when you compiled your application.

01:13:54   So this is dynamic linking.

01:13:55   It's not static linking where at the time they can build your application, it knows where everything is and writes all that information.

01:14:00   It's dynamic linking. It says I'm going to call this function in this framework, and you're going to tell me where it is because it's going to move around.

01:14:07   And there's also address-based randomization, a bunch of other stuff for security reasons, which means that dynamic linking really has to figure out where everything is.

01:14:14   The title of the relevant WWDC session is "App Startup Time, colon, Past, Present, and Future," which seems like it's very innocuous.

01:14:25   like, "Oh, I'm going to learn how to make my app start up faster."

01:14:28   But surprise, session 413, we will put the link in the show notes,

01:14:32   this session is really about how Apple's rewriting the dynamic linker again,

01:14:36   for the third time.

01:14:38   And as you might imagine, the dynamic linker is a really, really, really important part of the system.

01:14:42   Because if it's broken, like, nothing works.

01:14:45   Because everything is dynamic linked to everything, and it's super important.

01:14:52   It's kind of like when they change the compiler, but worse,

01:14:54   because the compiler, like they left the old compiler around,

01:14:57   and the new dynamic linker is going

01:14:59   to be used to link everything in the operating system itself

01:15:03   and probably eventually all your third party applications.

01:15:07   So here's the scanning on this.

01:15:10   The old version, DYLD2, will be completely replaced

01:15:14   by the new DYLD3.

01:15:16   It's not maybe you've heard this one before.

01:15:17   Hopefully this will go well and not be a repeated discovery

01:15:22   situation. It will be the default for all system apps, and this is their phrasing,

01:15:27   for 2017 Apple OS platforms. So I guess that means the watch, the home pod, the

01:15:34   Apple TV, the Mac, and all iOS devices for system apps, which means Apple's own

01:15:40   applications. I mean, I guess third-party applications will keep still be using

01:15:44   D-Wale D 2.0. Anyway, the reason this session is called App Star Up Time Past,

01:15:49   in the future is because what they're pitching developers on is this will let your application

01:15:54   launch faster. And there's been a lot of WWC sessions about that and you might think this

01:15:58   is like, "Oh great, my app is slow on startup. This DYLD3 will make my app launch faster."

01:16:03   Well, maybe, but probably not because as the session says in the beginning to try to, you know,

01:16:11   level set, what they're talking about making startup time faster is everything that happens

01:16:17   before they call main.

01:16:19   You're like, well, wait a second.

01:16:20   My code doesn't even start until they call main.

01:16:23   If your application is slow on startup

01:16:26   because you're doing a bunch of stuff in your code,

01:16:28   this will not help you because this,

01:16:30   all the time they're trying to remove

01:16:32   is before main is called, right?

01:16:34   You're like, oh, well,

01:16:35   nothing happens before you call main, right?

01:16:37   Isn't that like the first thing that happens?

01:16:38   And from the dynamic language perspective,

01:16:40   it's like, no, no, no.

01:16:41   You think your program starts at main.

01:16:43   Really, we have to do a bunch of crap

01:16:44   to find all your stuff before we can even call main.

01:16:47   And so this team is like, we are everything that happens before.

01:16:50   Developers think there is zero time before main is called, but that is not true at all.

01:16:54   And so they're working at a much smaller level, obviously, in most non-trivial applications.

01:16:59   I would imagine the time required after main is called and before your application is usable

01:17:06   dwarfs all this time. But for very small, simple applications or system demons or other stuff

01:17:11   like that, maybe not. Sorry, I'm not going to repeat everything that's in the presentation,

01:17:15   but the summary is that they're taking the dynamic linker and moving it out into a daemon

01:17:22   process, which might be terrifying to people.

01:17:25   Like, "Wait, how can the dynamic linker be a daemon process?"

01:17:29   I don't like daemon processes, and DYLD already ends in D, which is convenient for them.

01:17:33   Is it called a DYLDD?

01:17:35   I don't know.

01:17:37   They tried to—it's a simple caching mechanism.

01:17:39   There's a bunch of stuff that has to happen before you call main of, like, figuring out

01:17:44   where all your stuff is and the addresses of everything

01:17:46   and finding all the dependencies and stuff like that

01:17:49   and doing symbol lookups.

01:17:51   That doesn't change unless the libraries change.

01:17:54   And so they're gonna do all that in an external process

01:17:57   and cache the results of it.

01:17:59   And so on subsequent launches,

01:18:00   they don't have to redo that.

01:18:01   They could say, "Oh, I've launched you before.

01:18:03   I know where all your crap is."

01:18:05   And so we can skip right to the part

01:18:07   where we start doing stuff and executing.

01:18:09   And having it in a separate process,

01:18:11   even though it sounds terrifying,

01:18:12   like from a security perspective,

01:18:13   Like, oh, if you can hack that process, you own the system.

01:18:16   It's actually better than having it in the process

01:18:18   because if you're gonna try to mess with dynamic linker

01:18:22   and dynamic linker is running in the same process as you,

01:18:25   if you can corrupt that process,

01:18:27   you have access to all the stuff

01:18:29   that dynamic linker is doing

01:18:30   because you were in the same process.

01:18:31   Whereas if it's in an external process

01:18:32   and a program is corrupted,

01:18:34   it's gonna have a harder time leaping across the barrier

01:18:37   to a whole separate process that it hasn't yet corrupted.

01:18:41   I don't know.

01:18:41   We'll see how this works out security wise.

01:18:42   I can see the argument for it, that it is harder to hack with things in a separate process

01:18:46   than in your own process, but on the other hand, this is now a very attractive target

01:18:51   for all sorts of hacks, so I'm sure they're doing a good job with it.

01:18:54   And they made a pitch from a development perspective of developing this as a separate process makes

01:19:01   it easier for them to test.

01:19:03   It's not a bunch of code running inside a bunch of other people's applications, inside

01:19:07   other people's memory spaces where who knows what the heck is going on.

01:19:10   It is a separate process in its own memory space that other processes aren't messing

01:19:15   with because of memory protection, and that makes it more reproducible and reliable, everything

01:19:19   like that.

01:19:20   So I think this is a fascinating presentation.

01:19:22   It's one most people probably haven't watched, session 413.

01:19:24   I encourage everyone to watch it.

01:19:26   W2C videos are free for everybody.

01:19:27   You don't have to have a developer account.

01:19:29   You can just click on the link in our show notes and watch it right away.

01:19:32   I think this stuff is super cool.

01:19:34   I love it when Apple replaces the guts of operating systems.

01:19:37   I hope they don't screw it up because this is super important and terrifying, but I really

01:19:41   like that they're doing it.

01:19:43   Yeah, one of my favorite sessions this year.

01:19:46   So there are a few people in my life who are not programmers but listen to the show anyway,

01:19:53   and there are a number of people who write in and comment to that effect sometimes.

01:19:57   They are going to love this chapter of the show.

01:20:00   I didn't go to that much detail.

01:20:01   You can watch the session to go into detail.

01:20:04   But let's put it this way here, for regular people, like again with APFS, like why do

01:20:07   I care this happening?

01:20:09   In theory, things could launch faster on your Apple platforms, in theory.

01:20:16   Will that be perceptible to you?

01:20:18   I don't know.

01:20:19   Maybe.

01:20:20   Maybe not.

01:20:21   But anyway, the other – and the potential downside is everything is broken and nothing

01:20:24   works.

01:20:25   So if that doesn't happen, consider it a victory.

01:20:29   So you got a little bonus surprise at WWDC.

01:20:33   Marco, you also got a little bonus surprise at WWDC,

01:20:37   did you not?

01:20:38   - I did.

01:20:40   Last summer, as I was writing my MP3 encoder,

01:20:44   I ran into an issue.

01:20:46   MP3 has had, for a very, very long time,

01:20:50   has had the option to have VBR,

01:20:52   or variable bit rate files.

01:20:54   The idea being that if different parts of a file,

01:20:58   of like an audio track, have different complexity levels.

01:21:02   In a podcast, all of the gaps that are between

01:21:05   all the words that we're speaking,

01:21:06   you don't need that many bits to encode

01:21:08   what's mostly silence to a level that most people

01:21:10   would not even notice, right?

01:21:12   And then you can use more bits to encode

01:21:17   complex passages like music.

01:21:19   And a variable bitrate file allows the encoder

01:21:22   to just decide, like, you know, for these few milliseconds,

01:21:25   I'm gonna use this bitrate, and then for the next

01:21:26   few milliseconds, I'm gonna use a different bitrate,

01:21:28   and so on, and it's a much more efficient way

01:21:31   to encode audio.

01:21:33   And the problem is that the MP3 format

01:21:38   does not have great ways, at least it did not start out

01:21:41   having great ways to know ahead of time

01:21:45   before you've read the entire file,

01:21:47   if you want to say jump to an hour and 10 seconds in,

01:21:52   what byte position is that?

01:21:55   If it's a constant bitrate file, you can just calculate,

01:21:57   well, each second is this many bytes,

01:21:59   So therefore just jump to offset times bytes per second

01:22:02   and that's where you go.

01:22:04   If it's a VBR file, you can't guarantee that

01:22:07   because you don't know what the average bit rate is

01:22:08   across the whole file.

01:22:10   And so in order to jump to a precise point,

01:22:12   you have to have some kind of lookup table or something

01:22:15   to say for every second or for every half second

01:22:18   or for every tenth of a second, this is its byte position.

01:22:21   And maybe you put that at the beginning of the file

01:22:24   and the metadata section or something

01:22:25   and then you can jump to it.

01:22:27   And there were a few standards on how to do this,

01:22:29   but Apple supported none of them.

01:22:31   So if you would load a very long file, like a podcast,

01:22:36   in something that was using an Apple decoder,

01:22:38   which is every podcast player on iOS, or Safari,

01:22:43   or pretty much anywhere on Apple platforms

01:22:47   that could play in MP3 would have this problem.

01:22:50   You would jump ahead, like if you were trying to seek

01:22:52   within that file, you'd jump ahead and you would actually

01:22:55   not be at the right point because it was not having

01:22:58   any kind of intelligence about VBR files

01:23:00   and how to seek within them.

01:23:02   So it would just try to estimate based on file size

01:23:04   and it would say, well, this file is 100 megabytes

01:23:09   and I can read from the duration header up front

01:23:12   that it's two hours long and you told me to jump to one hour

01:23:15   so I'm gonna jump to the 50 megabyte mark

01:23:18   and just assume that's correct.

01:23:20   And that could be off by like two minutes or more.

01:23:22   Like that could be off by a lot depending on the content

01:23:25   the file and like how the variable bit rate stuff

01:23:27   was allocated between different parts of it.

01:23:29   And so that sucked.

01:23:30   So it basically meant that it was impractical

01:23:34   for podcasts or a lot of, any kind of long form

01:23:38   audio content to really ever use VBR encoding.

01:23:41   And I filed a bug report, it's the best I could,

01:23:45   and I wrote a blog post to draw attention to it.

01:23:46   And heard nothing for a very long time,

01:23:50   well for a year.

01:23:52   And then in iOS 11 and in High Sierra, that's fixed.

01:23:57   iOS 11 and High Sierra now properly seek VBR MP3s

01:24:03   that have the seek tables at the beginning of them.

01:24:07   There are three different formats of those

01:24:09   that I know that exist.

01:24:10   They support all three of them.

01:24:12   They prioritize the highest precision one first,

01:24:15   which is the MLLT ID3 tag.

01:24:18   They prioritize that first.

01:24:20   forecast my encoder now writes those tags.

01:24:23   So now we will soon, you know,

01:24:28   there's always gonna be issues with VBR files

01:24:30   on like random like car head units and stuff,

01:24:33   you know, like things that aren't, you know,

01:24:34   advanced computer platforms.

01:24:36   But it will soon become more reasonable,

01:24:40   like, you know, once iOS 11 and High Sierra are widespread,

01:24:44   it will become more reasonable for podcasters

01:24:47   to potentially use VBR encoding on their MP3s.

01:24:51   And what this means for you, the listeners,

01:24:53   is better sound quality for things like dropped-in music.

01:24:57   Like if we drop in a clip for music

01:24:58   or if we play our theme song or whatever,

01:25:00   you will hear better quality on that.

01:25:02   And also, you can maintain the same level of quality

01:25:06   for the whole file for just basic speech,

01:25:07   like what we're doing now,

01:25:09   and have it take up 25 to 50% less space.

01:25:13   And therefore also download faster,

01:25:15   use less battery while downloading

01:25:17   less space burned on your phone, et cetera.

01:25:20   So it's a pretty nice gain.

01:25:21   It's like a 25 to 50% gain, depending on the content.

01:25:24   It's a pretty nice gain, and you can get better quality

01:25:28   for dropped in clips and stuff,

01:25:30   all because now Apple will seek this properly.

01:25:33   Now, again, there are gonna be non-Apple platforms.

01:25:37   There's gonna be ways in which,

01:25:38   like Android listeners, for instance,

01:25:41   are kind of a problem for this.

01:25:43   So podcasters like us will have to decide

01:25:45   Like what percentage of our audience is on platforms

01:25:48   that don't support proper VBR seeking?

01:25:50   And are we willing to let them live with

01:25:53   miscalculated durations or miscalculated seek points

01:25:56   as they seek throughout the file?

01:25:58   And so that's gonna be a trade off for any podcast

01:26:02   or trend, so what format to encode their audio in.

01:26:05   But having it in the Apple platforms

01:26:08   is by far the biggest gain.

01:26:11   Like that's the big one we needed.

01:26:14   Like Overcast already supports it,

01:26:16   because I use Apple's decoder.

01:26:18   So like Overcast already supports all this stuff

01:26:20   in iOS 11 and High Sierra, well I don't have a Mac app,

01:26:22   sorry Casey, but if I made one it would support it

01:26:24   in High Sierra.

01:26:25   And every other app that uses Apple's decoders,

01:26:28   which is as far as I know all of them,

01:26:30   I don't think any podcast apps bundle their own MP3 decoders.

01:26:33   So, you know, this basically makes all iOS apps

01:26:37   suddenly support this without any changes whatsoever.

01:26:42   So that's really great.

01:26:43   I'm incredibly happy about this.

01:26:45   It might be a while, you know,

01:26:46   it might be another year or two

01:26:47   before we should practically use that,

01:26:51   but this is the start of that.

01:26:52   This is the first step, and that's really great.

01:26:55   - Spoiler alert, audience.

01:26:56   Marco will make a VBR episode of ATP

01:26:59   way before you think he's going to.

01:27:00   - Oh yeah, definitely.

01:27:01   (laughing)

01:27:02   - He's dying to do it.

01:27:03   The episode you're listening to right now might be VBR.

01:27:06   That's what I'm saying.

01:27:07   (laughing)

01:27:08   - I wouldn't do it during the beta if I was 11.

01:27:12   - Sure you would.

01:27:13   - I wouldn't tell anybody either, it would just be like,

01:27:14   you know what, that last episode, that was VBR,

01:27:16   you didn't even know it.

01:27:17   - Yeah, notice how good the theme song sounded?

01:27:19   - Yeah, all we got is that, we'll have to add

01:27:21   more music clips, like, inexplicably.

01:27:24   (laughing)

01:27:26   Lots of cymbals and syncopated rhythms

01:27:28   that trip up compression algorithms.

01:27:31   - The funny thing is, too, Apple also added,

01:27:34   in very few places, but they did add rudimentary support

01:27:38   for the Opus audio codec, also, which is very interesting.

01:27:42   The Opus Audio codec is kind of the successor to Ogg Vorbis.

01:27:45   It's by the same people, and it's open source,

01:27:49   and as far as anybody knows, patent-free,

01:27:52   although that's always open to whether

01:27:54   it's really been challenged or not,

01:27:56   but it's a very good codec, very advanced, very modern.

01:27:59   In a very small number of places,

01:28:02   iOS 11 and High Sierra support that now.

01:28:05   So there might be a future in which MP3

01:28:08   might not be the most practical solution anymore.

01:28:11   that might become, if everywhere starts supporting Opus,

01:28:15   this is step one towards that possibility,

01:28:18   that's probably not gonna happen in reality.

01:28:20   It's probably always gonna be more practical

01:28:22   to just ship MP3s because everything supports them.

01:28:25   But maybe in the future, I get together

01:28:28   with some other podcast app makers

01:28:29   and we figure out how to advertise multiple formats

01:28:33   of the same show.

01:28:34   And if you're using a compatible client

01:28:36   that maybe it sends an accept header

01:28:38   that lets it say to the downloading server,

01:28:41   "You know what, you can send me Opus if you have it."

01:28:43   And maybe publishers then can publish files

01:28:47   that are automatically transcoded to multiple formats.

01:28:50   This would take a lot on the tooling side

01:28:52   to make anybody actually do this.

01:28:54   But this is the start of making better quality podcasts

01:28:59   that take up less space, and I love that.

01:29:03   - I remember having to make multiple video tags

01:29:06   because with the whole, was it a VC1 or VP9, I forget.

01:29:11   - The WebM thing?

01:29:13   - Yeah, WebM and all that other stuff

01:29:14   'cause they wouldn't do H.264

01:29:16   and send out all my OS X reviews, I had to have

01:29:19   multiple versions of every video

01:29:22   so all devices could see them.

01:29:23   But anyway, that's from a production perspective,

01:29:26   it's annoying, but it is nice to be able to do a cascade

01:29:29   and say, here's seven versions of this thing

01:29:31   and just, you know, browsers,

01:29:33   and between the browser and the server,

01:29:35   figure out which one you want, but I rank them kind of like Apple did with the algorithms

01:29:39   for the VBR thing. Rank them in order from best to worst, and you just go down the scale

01:29:43   until you find the one that you can read.

01:29:45   Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week, Betterment, Fracture, and Harry's, and we'll

01:29:49   see you next week.

01:29:50   [Music]

01:29:51   Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin, 'cause it was accidental. Oh, it

01:30:01   It was accidental

01:30:03   John didn't do any research

01:30:05   Margo and Casey wouldn't let him

01:30:08   Cause it was accidental

01:30:10   It was accidental

01:30:12   It was accidental

01:30:14   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

01:30:19   And if you're into Twitter

01:30:22   You can follow them

01:30:24   @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

01:30:28   So that's Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M, N-T-M-A-R-C-O-R-M-N-S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A

01:30:40   It's accidental, accidental, accidental, accidental, accidental, accidental, accidental,

01:30:48   Tech Podcast, so long.

01:30:53   So I was not entirely clear about why I had experience with the 2017 laptop keyboard earlier.

01:31:00   Oh god.

01:31:02   I lied. I said I used it in a store. I didn't use it in a store. I used it in my house.

01:31:06   Oh god.

01:31:08   Yeah, so here's the situation.

01:31:11   Oh, and it begins.

01:31:13   Your parents went away on a week's vacation, I know.

01:31:15   Yeah.

01:31:16   Is that a reference?

01:31:17   Come on, I'm trying to do the 90s references for you guys.

01:31:23   - This is your generation.

01:31:24   - So you know how I'm the chief summarizer in chief?

01:31:27   Marco is the chief justifier in chief.

01:31:30   - Yes, that is true.

01:31:30   - So what did you buy and how did you justify it?

01:31:34   - My MacBook escape, as I mentioned,

01:31:37   I need to send it in and get the keyboard repairs.

01:31:40   That started me thinking like,

01:31:41   all right, when's a good time to do this

01:31:42   and everything else?

01:31:44   I'm going away for a week.

01:31:46   We also will be at the beach for a month later this summer.

01:31:51   I have placed an LG 5K display at the Beach House

01:31:55   so I can work for a month.

01:31:58   'Cause the summertime, I work a lot in the summer

01:32:01   because as an iOS developer, you do major upgrades

01:32:04   using the new beta OS and new capabilities and everything.

01:32:07   And of course, I'm still gonna be recording with you guys.

01:32:10   I'm gonna be podcasting while there.

01:32:12   It's gonna be a work month for the most part.

01:32:14   - But I Work a Lot During the Summer would be a great title

01:32:17   for this episode if we wanted to meet DeMarco.

01:32:20   (laughing)

01:32:20   - We will not do that.

01:32:22   - So, my plan was to bring the MacBook Escape

01:32:27   and connect it to the LG 5K and work on that

01:32:31   all summer long.

01:32:32   - Wait, on your LG 5K before you go on,

01:32:35   - Yeah.

01:32:35   - Did you get it replaced with the one

01:32:37   that doesn't like destroy,

01:32:38   it doesn't flicker off when WiFi is nearby?

01:32:41   'Cause then they like fix that?

01:32:42   - Yeah, as far as I know,

01:32:43   'cause I bought it on the very last day of the discount.

01:32:46   'Cause we were starting to plan our summer,

01:32:48   we were thinking we would probably do a whole month

01:32:51   out there and I was like, you know,

01:32:53   I should have some big monitor to plug into.

01:32:56   And on the very last day of the discount,

01:32:58   before I even had the MacBook escape,

01:33:00   I decided, you know what, I'm probably gonna do this.

01:33:02   And this was after they had paused selling them

01:33:07   to fix the problem.

01:33:08   So as far as I know, mine does not have the problem.

01:33:10   - Ah, all right.

01:33:11   - All right, so anyway.

01:33:13   So this was my plan, bring the escape up there

01:33:15   and just work on that all summer long.

01:33:18   And I knew it would be slower than my iMac, but fine.

01:33:23   It's still, it's a compromised situation,

01:33:27   but I would deal with it,

01:33:29   'cause I love the Escape in so many other ways.

01:33:32   Then the Escape keyboard started having problems.

01:33:34   Then I went on to W2C and hated having only two USB ports,

01:33:38   as we discussed last episode.

01:33:41   Like that got in the way a lot.

01:33:44   And even now that the keyboard is fixed on the new ones,

01:33:47   probably, that is still the one thing that I can say

01:33:51   I didn't like about the MacBook Escape overall

01:33:53   in my use of it so far.

01:33:55   I really don't like having only those two ports,

01:33:57   which if you're powered, is really only one port.

01:33:59   But that's not a big enough problem to make me dump it.

01:34:02   But I have this other problem now.

01:34:05   My iMac keeps having problems.

01:34:08   And these are problems that I don't think

01:34:09   we're gonna get easily fixed.

01:34:11   My iMac is, not only does it have the image retention

01:34:15   that I complained about months ago,

01:34:17   and that's still getting worse and worse and worse.

01:34:21   I'm also getting what appear to be I/O stalls

01:34:23   on a pretty regular basis.

01:34:25   My performance is actually getting noticeably worse.

01:34:27   I'm having weird pauses.

01:34:28   Logic is giving me that wonderful

01:34:30   disk to slower system overload dialogue.

01:34:33   Have you ever seen that?

01:34:34   I love it so much.

01:34:35   I've never seen that dialogue before two months ago,

01:34:37   and I'm having problems with my iMac is what I'm saying.

01:34:40   Now, I really want either an iMac Pro or probably a Mac Pro.

01:34:45   My plan has always been, you know,

01:34:50   let me ride this iMac out.

01:34:51   The Apple Care on my iMac is up in a few months,

01:34:55   in October, I think, whatever three years

01:34:57   after the 5K came out is, which I think is October.

01:35:00   Let me just last 'til then, and then I can like,

01:35:03   sell it and get the iMac Pro.

01:35:06   - You should make a run at getting the screen jigs,

01:35:09   like before your thing runs out.

01:35:10   just bring it in and just be like,

01:35:11   look, IO stalls and the screen has image transitions,

01:35:13   blah, blah, blah, do something.

01:35:15   And who knows?

01:35:16   - I'm going to.

01:35:17   But the thing is, there's never a good time to do that.

01:35:19   Like there is-- - I know, wow.

01:35:20   - There's never-- - Do it while you're

01:35:21   at the beach for a month.

01:35:23   - But you can't have Apple send it back to you

01:35:26   and have it sit in a store for a month.

01:35:27   I think that would be a problem.

01:35:29   You know, so like that-- - Yeah, that'd be fine.

01:35:30   - Or like sit on my porch for a month.

01:35:33   Like that would be a problem too.

01:35:35   So basically, I'm having problems with my iMac.

01:35:38   but this is a terrible time for me

01:35:40   to want to replace my desktop.

01:35:42   Because I wanna wait, even if the iMac Pro

01:35:46   ends up being for me, what I should really do

01:35:49   is wait for the Mac Pro to come out before I decide that.

01:35:54   Just so I can see what the Mac Pro is

01:35:56   and I can weigh those decisions equally.

01:35:59   And whatever their Pro display is, et cetera.

01:36:02   I already have this LG display.

01:36:04   So my new plan is, let me use a laptop full time

01:36:09   with the LG display after vacation month this summer.

01:36:14   I'll bring the display home,

01:36:16   I will use it on my desk full time,

01:36:18   I will send in my iMac to get serviced,

01:36:21   the new laptop plus display will become my iMac,

01:36:24   you know, it'll become like my desktop, my main computer.

01:36:28   And that can bridge me over until the Mac Pro comes out,

01:36:32   presumably like probably about a year from now.

01:36:35   And then I can buy a new desktop

01:36:36   with all the options available to me and decide that.

01:36:40   - TTE Pass.A in the chat room

01:36:41   has a good suggestion for you.

01:36:43   It sounds like what you need is a Mac subscription service

01:36:47   where you just pay a flat fee every month

01:36:49   and Apple just sends you every computer it makes,

01:36:51   just all of them.

01:36:53   Whenever they have a new computer,

01:36:54   they just send them to you

01:36:55   and you just keep paying the subscription

01:36:57   and the ones you don't like, you return

01:36:59   and it's like Blue Apron.

01:37:00   If you wanna cancel a Mac,

01:37:01   don't want the Mac to come this month, that's fine. And if you don't like one of the Macs

01:37:05   you have, you just send it back to them, they send you a different one.

01:37:08   They actually have leasing for business customers, and I'm a business customer at my local store.

01:37:12   So they actually started offering me the leasing option, which is not that different from that.

01:37:16   The only reason I didn't take it was that it's not that great of a deal, like it's a

01:37:21   two year, it's either two or three years fixed, of course, you know, because it's a lease,

01:37:25   it's like a fixed time scale. And I don't love having my computer purchases be tied

01:37:30   to a fixed time scale.

01:37:31   Like I care less about a car because that's like a big deal

01:37:33   to change and you know, when new minor revisions come out,

01:37:36   I don't really care.

01:37:38   But like to tie a laptop to like a two year schedule

01:37:42   that can't be slower or faster than that,

01:37:45   that I don't like that much.

01:37:47   And also the way it was priced is you get a pretty nice

01:37:50   discount for doing the lease.

01:37:51   Like if you add up all the payments,

01:37:53   you end up paying something like 20% less

01:37:56   than the retail price.

01:37:58   But then at the end, you have nothing on that.

01:38:01   You're not paying it off.

01:38:03   At the end, you can buy it out for fair market value

01:38:07   at the time, but you're basically paying 80%

01:38:10   of the retail price over two years

01:38:12   to at the end have nothing.

01:38:14   Whereas if you just buy it and then sell it later,

01:38:17   you might only lose 20 to 50% instead of 80%,

01:38:21   and you can sell it whenever you want to.

01:38:23   - So you got these sticky keys

01:38:25   and you got your image retention,

01:38:26   You had your IO stalls.

01:38:28   You seem to be having a lot of problems

01:38:29   with the computer reliability.

01:38:30   If you're interested, in a couple of years,

01:38:33   I may have a very reliable computer on the market.

01:38:35   (laughing)

01:38:36   For sale.

01:38:37   If you're interested, this is a proven track record.

01:38:40   I can give you all the repair history.

01:38:43   Totally solid, everything works.

01:38:45   One owner, if only drove it to church on Sundays,

01:38:48   it's great.

01:38:49   (laughing)

01:38:51   Never been in an accident.

01:38:54   but it's been full of browser tabs the whole time.

01:38:57   - Yeah, it loves them.

01:38:58   - It eats them up, eats them for breakfast.

01:39:01   - Yeah, so basically, I did have a chance

01:39:04   to use the LG display.

01:39:06   We went to the beach a couple of weeks ago,

01:39:09   or days ago, whenever it was,

01:39:11   and I tried to do some stuff on it with the MacBook Escape,

01:39:15   and the GPU in the Escape is really not great

01:39:18   at fairly basic operations on a 5K display.

01:39:22   And in all fairness, that's not what it's made to do.

01:39:25   That's a hefty GPU load to put on an Intel integrated GPU.

01:39:30   There's a reason why Apple does not really advertise much

01:39:34   with the 13 inch class of laptops on the big 5K display.

01:39:38   They always show it with the 15 inch

01:39:40   because the 15 inch has a discrete GPU

01:39:42   which is way more powerful than the Intel one.

01:39:44   And when you plug a 15 inch into a display,

01:39:47   the discrete GPU locks itself on.

01:39:49   Like it always uses that, it forces it on.

01:39:52   if it's ever connected to an external display

01:39:53   because it knows you kinda need that.

01:39:57   So the MacBook Escape, while awesome

01:40:00   for everything I needed before,

01:40:02   now with this summer need that I need to have

01:40:06   a nice big monitor and do big development

01:40:08   over the summertime, I now have a need

01:40:10   that it does not cover very well.

01:40:12   It really is quite poor at it, actually.

01:40:14   Like even things like resizing windows is sluggish.

01:40:17   'Cause it isn't made to be doing that.

01:40:20   I decided now that my needs, now that my iMac

01:40:24   has caused me to have different needs,

01:40:26   and I now need a desktop replacement to last me a year

01:40:29   until the Mac Pro comes out presumably,

01:40:31   I need something more powerful.

01:40:33   So I got a 15 inch again.

01:40:36   I got a 2017, almost maxed out, 15 inch.

01:40:41   And I'm gonna see how this goes.

01:40:42   I'm still in the return period.

01:40:44   Business rep said I can return whenever I want.

01:40:46   We'll see.

01:40:48   This, yeah.

01:40:49   - I wonder if he has a big pile in his office

01:40:51   that just says Marco over it.

01:40:52   Just like the maximum back then.

01:40:55   Put it in the Marco pile.

01:40:57   Well, technically I feel like this is,

01:41:01   oh I have a 15 inch again.

01:41:03   But you don't, you have the 2017 keyboard.

01:41:05   That will make all the difference I'm sure.

01:41:07   - Honestly it does feel dramatically better.

01:41:09   But I don't know yet how reliable it is.

01:41:12   I got fairly accustomed to the MacBook escape keyboard.

01:41:16   I didn't, you know, I still don't love the butterfly keys,

01:41:19   but I got used to it enough that I could operate,

01:41:23   but I can't operate when the keys fail.

01:41:25   So, so that's, I hope they have fixed that.

01:41:29   I'll tell you, 'cause I'll know in a few weeks.

01:41:32   - Luckily there's not a lot of grit in the beach house,

01:41:34   so you'll be fine.

01:41:35   (laughing)

01:41:38   Nice.

01:41:40   - I mean, I don't use it in the sand, but yeah.

01:41:42   There's a--

01:41:43   - You know what they say about sand.

01:41:45   What? Neither one of you. No, correction, you two don't know what they say about that.

01:41:52   It's fine. There's one time I'm glad you didn't get a reference. Oh my word. Anyway, so, yes, I know this is totally ridiculous.

01:42:03   Yes, I know this is completely wasteful, but, you know, my requirements changed.

01:42:09   - Well, it's not wasteful.

01:42:10   It's not like you're throwing these computers

01:42:12   in the garbage.

01:42:12   You're returning or selling them,

01:42:14   so other people are getting use of them.

01:42:15   - Yeah, and when they're this new,

01:42:18   the resale's not too bad.

01:42:19   It's a shame because I really do love

01:42:22   everything else about the Escape,

01:42:23   and in the future, once my desktop situation

01:42:27   settles back down again, once I get a Mac Pro probably

01:42:30   or an iMac Pro next year, it wouldn't surprise me

01:42:33   if whatever laptop I buy next after that,

01:42:36   I might then go back to the Escape form factor

01:42:38   because I really do like it as a travel laptop.

01:42:42   But it is not what I want for a desktop replacement.

01:42:46   I want more power for that.

01:42:47   - You're gonna get an Adorable.

01:42:48   You're gonna get a two-port Adorable, you'll see.

01:42:52   - If that exists, maybe.

01:42:53   But I really do like the Escape over the Adorable, honestly.

01:42:56   The Adorable I find a little bit too small

01:42:59   to comfortably use in my lap.

01:43:01   Like the way it sits on my legs,

01:43:03   I need a little bit more width,

01:43:05   and the 13-inch line offers that.

01:43:07   So I'm a big fan of the 13 inch size overall.

01:43:10   I think it really is.

01:43:11   I think for almost everybody,

01:43:14   the 13 inch is the right choice.

01:43:16   It is really great and it is a wonderful balance.

01:43:20   I will say though, now that I've used the Escape

01:43:22   for three months or whatever it's been,

01:43:24   the 15 inch looks like an aircraft carrier by comparison.

01:43:27   Like it seems so big now.

01:43:31   I mean, Casey, it's probably even worse for you, right?

01:43:33   'Cause you're like bouncing between

01:43:34   the adorable and the old 15 inch.

01:43:37   Well, right, so I've got the adorable that I used from Wednesday through Sunday when

01:43:42   I was in Chicago.

01:43:44   Then I came home to the 27-inch iMac, and then I needed to do something specific for

01:43:48   work, so I got out the 15.

01:43:50   And the iMac is a little different because it's kind of an—it's like an external

01:43:53   display, so to speak, in that it's—it just occupies a different part of my brain,

01:43:59   you know?

01:44:00   It's like, oh, that's a desktop.

01:44:01   But holy smokes, when I grabbed that 15-inch, it looked enormous.

01:44:07   And aircraft carrier is a perfect description.

01:44:09   And I vaguely remember having handled 17-inch computers back when they were a thing.

01:44:13   Yeah, those were great.

01:44:14   I kind of want to just use the adorable for a while and then have somebody hand me a 17-inch.

01:44:20   And I can't imagine what it would be like because the 15 just looked obscenely large.

01:44:28   And I'd had 15s for years before the adorable.

01:44:32   Probably six or so years by now.

01:44:34   And godly, it just looked massive.

01:44:37   I've got a Mac portable if you're interested.

01:44:40   How do you feel about a 16-pound portable Macintosh with a lead-acid battery?

01:44:47   Somehow I think that's going to have trouble driving the 5K display.

01:44:51   Active matrix LCD display.

01:44:53   That's the thing I can't communicate to you youngsters adequately.

01:44:58   The idea that back in the day every Mac had something amazing about it.

01:45:02   Even this giant disgusting portable computer.

01:45:05   It had an active matrix LCD display.

01:45:08   And all of the typical PC laptops had passive matrix screens.

01:45:14   I don't know if you remember what those were like.

01:45:16   Awful.

01:45:17   But ghosting.

01:45:18   You would move the cursor or move a window and you would see like 17 ghost images of

01:45:22   the things was terrible. Active Matrix. Yeah, yeah, transistor behind every pixel and you

01:45:27   can move your cursor and the cursor would actually move and it was like it

01:45:30   was like a portable a flat screen can't do that because everyone knows what a

01:45:34   flat screen looks like it's this ghosty mess and yes it was monochrome I think

01:45:38   yeah I think the first back portal was monochrome but active matrix it was like well

01:45:42   it's like it was it was the promotion of its day it was the 120 Hertz of its day

01:45:46   it's like well once you see active matrix you can't go back. My dad had a

01:45:50   I had a ThinkPad, and I don't remember the model number, but it was black and white.

01:45:55   Well, I should say it was grayscale.

01:45:59   And I remember running Wolfenstein 3D on it, and it was unplayable because of all the ghosting.

01:46:04   It was ridiculous.

01:46:05   However, I believe at Dad's house, right now, is an IBM PC convertible.

01:46:10   And Jon, you don't know anything about these, because you didn't believe in PCs.

01:46:13   So let me tell you about old hardware, Jon.

01:46:17   The PC convertible came out in the early 90s and it had two low-density 3.5-inch drives.

01:46:24   As a matter of fact, according to Wikipedia, it was the first IBM computer to use the 3.5-inch

01:46:28   floppy disk format, which went on to become the industry standard.

01:46:31   You're welcome, John.

01:46:32   Anyway, it was a complete piece of garbage in weight.

01:46:35   It wasn't IBM that made it the industry standard.

01:46:37   It was Apple.

01:46:39   It weighed 13 pounds according to Wikipedia, and it was an amazing machine and I loved

01:46:43   it.

01:46:44   And it's a total piece of garbage, if I'm really honest with you.

01:46:47   - It's worse than the Mac portable,

01:46:49   which is saying something.

01:46:50   - Yeah, so if you look at the image in Wikipedia,

01:46:53   and you close, so imagine you close the lid.

01:46:56   If you look at the very front of the keyboard,

01:46:59   you see how there's like a gray bar going across the front

01:47:02   and the sides of the computer? - That's the handle.

01:47:04   - It's a handle.

01:47:05   Yeah, if it was John that just said that,

01:47:07   yep, it's a handle, so it slides out.

01:47:09   - I remember these computers,

01:47:10   'cause I was alive when these were here too,

01:47:11   that's what being old means.

01:47:12   (laughing)

01:47:13   - So yeah, the thing would slide out as you grabbed it,

01:47:16   and you can carry the 13, I mean,

01:47:18   granted I am not the strongest man in the world,

01:47:20   but I actually saw this thing within the last year at Dad's

01:47:22   and I picked it up and was like,

01:47:24   oh God, this thing is heavy.

01:47:26   Like it is uncomfortably heavy at apparently 13 pounds,

01:47:29   which for those of you who believe in units

01:47:31   that make sense, that's almost six kilograms.

01:47:33   - It's lighter than the Mac portable

01:47:37   by almost an entire 15-inch laptop.

01:47:41   (laughing)

01:47:42   - I will say though, the current 15 inch is very light.

01:47:47   It's only four pounds.

01:47:49   It's about the weight of the previous 13 inch models

01:47:52   of the old Retina generation.

01:47:54   And so it really is very light.

01:47:58   It's just large.

01:47:59   It has a big footprint.

01:48:00   So it feels like you're waving around a lunch tray.

01:48:03   But I do like a lot of that.

01:48:06   If you want a really powerful laptop,

01:48:10   that's a great one to have.

01:48:11   and that's probably the best one to have.

01:48:14   And it really, you know, all my complaints

01:48:17   about battery life aside, and I haven't had time

01:48:19   to test this one really yet, I haven't really used

01:48:21   my battery yet, 'cause it's only a few days old,

01:48:23   but the form factor of this current 15-inch

01:48:26   is really remarkable because if you put it in a bag,

01:48:29   you know, it's like all the previous 13s.

01:48:32   Like, it doesn't feel any heavier than that,

01:48:35   but you have the power and massive screen size,

01:48:38   relatively, of the 15-inch.

01:48:40   So it's a great computer and it wasn't for me before, but my requirements changed dramatically

01:48:47   so and that's why I have it now.

01:48:49   Okay, so you have something that your convertible PC can't do and didn't do, which is it auto-reject

01:48:57   a floppy disk in space.

01:48:59   In space?

01:49:01   In space!

01:49:02   Like, no gravity, you mean?

01:49:04   Well, there's gravity, but you're falling around the Earth.

01:49:06   It's called orbit.

01:49:07   Anyway, I put a video, I put a terrible...

01:49:10   If you bring one to a geostationary orbit satellite, can you eject it?

01:49:14   Yeah, no.

01:49:15   Auto-inject and eject drives on the Macs were great.

01:49:18   But anyway, this is a famous video of a—

01:49:19   Inject?

01:49:20   That's the word for that.

01:49:21   Auto-inject is the feature.

01:49:23   Yet another feature that made Apple computers superior to PCs for all those years.

01:49:27   I love you, Jon, but you being smug about old Apple hardware—

01:49:32   Oh, auto-inject and eject will never die.

01:49:36   Will never get old.

01:49:38   They will live forever.

01:49:39   They did, though.

01:49:40   They will live forever. No, because the floppy just went away.

01:49:43   I mean, on the other hand, like, you know, you look at this IBM monstrosity and like,

01:49:47   you think, you know, what's better than a laptop with a floppy drive? A laptop with

01:49:52   two floppy drives. Well, there was no hard drive. What are you gonna do? You had, you know,

01:49:58   one floppy for like DOS or whatever, then the other floppy for actually doing it.

01:50:02   There wasn't enough room in a 13-pound package for them to fit the hard drive.

01:50:06   No, there wasn't! I mean, I know you're snarking, but there wasn't.

01:50:10   Well, the Mac portable had a 40 megabyte hard drive, so there you go. 40 megabytes!

01:50:14   It was also $14,000 in 2016 money, by the way.

01:50:18   [LAUGHTER]

01:50:20   (beeping)